New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 7:48 AM

9E988553771147ACA1ED5EFDC11099B1.png

Subject: [vintageHO] Walthers HO 70' Executive Car kit

Before I offer this on eBay, I thought I'd offer this to the List for $5.00 plus shipping

We also received an original Varney diesel and a Mantua 4-6-2, both in original unpainted condition. I can send pictures if anyone is interested.

Thanks!!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26246	From: oklacnw	Date: 2/1/2017
Subject: Re: 3 D printing

Received Micro-Marts latest catalog yesterday & they have 5 3-D printers listed with various filament types. Price on one is not bad.
--
Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26247	From: trainliker	Date: 2/1/2017
Subject: Re: 3 D printing

Attachments :

Yes. I saw that also. Far more than they have offered in the past (and for that matter, many, many new tools showed in that catalog). Some conflate the notion of a high quality part with a low price printer. I don’t think that’s very accurate.

For somebody wanting to dabble, see if there is a local “maker space” that has one. Those tend to be friendly places with people with surprising knowledge hanging around.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: oklacnw@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:02 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Cc: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 3 D printing

Received Micro-Marts latest catalog yesterday & they have 5 3-D printers listed with various filament types. Price on one is not bad.
--
Al E.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26248	From: nvrr49	Date: 2/1/2017
Subject: Re: 3 D printing

The MicroMark selection of printers is interesting. Most of the major brands don't wholesale their products, so only the Afinia and the Dremel are ones I have ever seen rated or reviewed. The Afiniabot Prusa i3 is really just a knock off of the Original Prusa i3 mk2. I would certainly pay more and buy from Josef Prusa before I would buy the knock off from MicroMark.

The MicroMark descriptions leave a lot be be desired, as they leave out a lot of the specification one should want to know before buying a printer. Just my two cents. I have two Afinia printers, and H479 and an H480, plus an M3D Micro.

I also have a 3d pen, similar to the one MicroMark shows.

In general, you are not going to make fine detail parts with a filament printer, that said, there are thousands of things one can make for your model railroad. The key is learning to design the items.

Kent in KC

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26249	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 2/11/2017
Subject: 1st Issue of HOCollector Magazine received 2 days ago,

Hi All:
Just received the first, Premiere Issue of HOCollector Magazine. Thought
I'd give my first impressions:

First, after being through a couple major publication efforts in my own
world, I pay attention to book/magazine mechanicals. Meaning paper
used, print, bindings, etc. So the magazine arrived in it's protective
plastic sleeve, which I appreciate, and when pulling it out I
immediately noticed its, "heft," in terms of substantial feel. Pages
are nice, heavy stock. Cover material seems almost lighter, but still
adequate weight. Magazine length is 48 pages counting both covers.
Attractive style, printing, photo reproduction and layout. Has letters
to the editors, - good. One article is on PFM's SD45. Nice article,
and lengthy enough one did not feel like they skimped on coverage. This
is important, as I often see magazines touting an attractive subject,
only to later find a 2 page, abbreviated article that left much of the
story still to be told.

Another rather large article is, "Railbox Models, Part One: ACF." This
seems to be thorough coverage again, thank you, although Railbox cars
have never interested me. (I got my first ever Central Valley box car
kit about 1957, so I'm really stuck back in vintage/vintage.) This is
OK, as there needs to be appeal over a rather wide period of model
railroad history and years, as well as subjects.

Other articles are Bowser Power for Tyco's Century and Inside Bachmann's
Operating Caboose. A good looking article on Lindberg is still waiting
for my attention and my next reading session.

All in all, I like this new magazine. I noticed right away in the PFM
article that while the main subject seemed well covered, a lot of very
interesting, (at least to me), associated information was included, a
lot of it new to me.

Nice job folks; glad I subscribed.

Dennis Thompson
Odessa/Ritzville, E WA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26250	From: trainliker	Date: 2/11/2017
Subject: Re: 1st Issue of HOCollector Magazine received 2 days ago,

Attachments :

52DE9A0AA71A4ADFAFF4F21F64A5FFB3.png

Yeah. I got mine a few days ago and had a similar reaction. Nice effort, serious research. Maybe even exhaustive research in some cases.

To me, “vintage” is a bit earlier than every article in this issue. It seems a little more like it is perhaps mostly covering a period matching somebody’s personal initial immersion into the hobby. But I will keep my fingers crossed for future issues going a little further back now and again at least.

I hope to see things about the start of outfits like Varney and Walthers and smaller ones. (I have a Walthers passenger car kit with the inspection slip they used to have signed by #1, and that’s William K. Walthers himself. Now THAT’s vintage to me.)

And perhaps how a typical layout might have been constructed, and using what supplies, decade by decade or something.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 10:44 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] 1st Issue of HOCollector Magazine received 2 days ago,

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26251	From: slim_guage_guy	Date: 2/12/2017
Subject: Re: Greetings from HO Collector Magazine

Just purchased a subscription for my father Tony, can't wait to see it when he's done.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26252	From: trainliker	Date: 2/15/2017
Subject: Gorre & Daphetid site back up as gdlines.org

I think the GandD Yahoo group announcement below may interest many on the vintageHO group.

After a lot of work, there is now a gdlines.org site (replaces the former gdlines.com site which had been down since 2014 and only available in a frozen form at archive.org a.k.a. "the wayback machine"). At gdlines.org you can see the largest assemblage of Gorre & Daphetid photos and and related information available anywhere.

gdlines.org also includes new material and some new links.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

**********************************************

It is with mixed emotions that I make the following announcements.
With sadness I would like to inform everyone of the passing of Peter Prunka.
Peter did all the amazing work putting together the GDLines Website and the CD / DVD picture collections.
And with excitement I announce the resurrection of the Website!
The new link is; http://gdlines.org/index.html
(We are working on getting the original gdlines.com<http://gdlines.com> domain name)

Please see the Tribute to Peter page.

I would especially like to thank Charles Armstrong for saving all the files and to Jeff Witt for uploading, editing, adding and fine-tuning all the pages!
And thanks to all the others for their support with ideas and checking pages etc.

I am sure you will find many new things to see!

If you have any input, please use the links on this page;
http://gdlines.org/GDLines/contact.html

Enjoy!
Keith Beard Trinity

***********************************************

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26253	From: denverrails	Date: 2/21/2017
Subject: Eary freight car

Attachments :

NYC3..jpg

NYC1.jpg

My model railroad club received an estate donation recently and the car the picture of which I have attached was included. I'm wondering if anyone can help identify it as my thought was either its Globe or Varney. Note that it still has diecast dummy knuckle couplers.

I'm planning to post this eBay but if any of the off-line members are interested please let me know dim01521@....

Thanks!

Wally

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26254	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/21/2017
Subject: Re: Eary freight car [2 Attachments]

Looks like a metal Athearn or Menzies box car.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 7:34 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Eary freight car [2 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from dim01521@... [vintageHO] included below]

I'm planning to post this eBay but if any of the off-line members are interested please let me know dim01521@....

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26255	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 2/21/2017
Subject: Re: Eary freight car

I vote for Athearn also because of the end underframes. By the way, the knuckles are on backward or upside down... The knuckles are supposed to be right hand to right hand.
Happy railroading...
Don Staton in VA.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 2/21/2017 10:32 PM, 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Looks like a metal Athearn or Menzies box car.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 7:34 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Eary freight car [2 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from dim01521@... [vintageHO] included below]

My model railroad club received an estate donation recently and the car the picture of which I have attached was included. I'm wondering if anyone can help identify it as my thought was either its Globe or Varney. Note that it still has diecast dummy knuckle couplers.

I'm planning to post this eBay but if any of the off-line members are interested please let me know dim01521@....

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26256	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/21/2017
Subject: Re: Eary freight car [2 Attachments]

Wally,

What you have here is definitely an Athearn metal freight car, of the "40-Foot 'Special' Single-Door Boxcar" series -- kit number A-178, of which thirteen different car sides were known to have been produced by this manufacturer -- your car number 174238 being one of them. I have this same (# 174283) car in my collection. This NYC Pacemaker car is included in the Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains (by Dallas J. Mallerich III), the car listing of which I helped compile. My photo of this same car appears in this book, on page 51, under this "Special" Series I've mentioned above. It's possible that G.F. Menzies may have also re-released it later, but if so this would have only been because they obtained a sufficient inventory of this car side number from Athearn to reproduce them when they bought Athearn out. Athearn was the original manufacturer of this car. Menzies did release NYC Pacemaker boxcar kits (originally painted and lettered/numbered by Athearn) in a much smaller selection of car side numbers, but it's uncertain whether this same car number was offered by them; they did (re)produce # 174179 as their kit number MH-250, however.

When in doubt about whether an H0 stamped metal box car or reefer was produced by either Varney or Athearn (or Globe), the construction of these cars will easily tell you which manufacturer you have when checking out the assembly of the car sides with the car ends. Varney used two single-piece integral side & end sections as part of the car's body, whereas Athearn and Globe used two separate sides and two separate ends. This is to say that with Varney's freight cars of these two types (boxcars and reefers), you will see one seamless joint at each end of these cars where the sides and ends meet as these end joints consist of one continuous side-end section(s) that are bent at right angles joined with a second similarly bent continuous side-end section(s) which meet with the other, showing just one actual joint at each end. Varney didn't use separate car sides and ends.

The car side numbers will also almost always indicate which manufacturer produced these metal freight cars as each manufacturer most often used a numbering series attributed only to them. While Globe metal freight cars were very similar in construction, this manufacturer never produced this car side number. Globe boxcars and reefers were also slightly higher than Athearn's, but this difference may not always be apparent in photos.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2017 7:40:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My model railroad club received an estate donation recently and the car the picture of which I have attached was included. I'm wondering if anyone can help identify it as my thought was either its Globe or Varney. Note that it still has diecast dummy knuckle couplers.

I'm planning to post this eBay but if any of the off-line members are interested please let me know dim01521@....

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26257	From: william witte	Date: 2/21/2017
Subject: Re: Eary freight car [2 Attachments]

It is an Athearn product.

From: "dim01521@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 7:34 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Eary freight car [2 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from dim01521@... [vintageHO] included below]

I'm planning to post this eBay but if any of the off-line members are interested please let me know dim01521@....

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26258	From: vicon9045	Date: 2/21/2017
Subject: Re: Eary freight car

Hello,

Athearn 40 foot box!

page 52, Greenberg's Athearn Trains # [G]

Stevens Collection,

Paul

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26259	From: steve michener	Date: 2/22/2017
Subject: 0-4-0 mantua

Denny from CWrailman told me to give you guys a try. I have a Mantua 0-4-0 shifter that I would like to remoter. I have remotored 2 in the past, 1 shifter & 1 camel back. I was fortunate to have Helix Humpers for both of them. Unfortunately they are very difficult to come by now. I'm sure I could find a motor that would work fine. There was one in Dennys blog that he had tested for brass steam. Mounting it is what puzzles me. I would like to get it done without regearing the whole thing. Any suggestions?
Thanks,Steve
Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26260	From: Paul Kayne	Date: 2/22/2017
Subject: Re: Eary freight car [2 Attachments]

Greenberg's Athearn Trains by Dallas J. Mallerich,

Page 52, [G] "174283" Athearn 40 foot box!

Paul

[Attachment(s) from dim01521@... [vintageHO] included below]

I'm planning to post this eBay but if any of the off-line members are interested please let me know dim01521@....

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26261	From: Dave Audley	Date: 2/22/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

You can try the A-Line web site for motors. Or, Northwest Short Line. who

also has motors. They also offer a re-gear service, which I have used and

I am very happy with the results!

Dave Audley

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 1:00 AM, "steve michener shrubman141@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26262	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/22/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Attachments :

MantuaTycoPacific1sm.jpg

Yes, it is unfortunate that Helix Humpers are gone. I guess I should have bought some myself. I am not aware of any really good way to put in a can motor in one of these. I have done it in an 0-6-0 and a 4-6-2 Mantua/Tyco, but I also re-geared them as well. I actually tried making a motor shaft extension to use the existing Mantua worm, but was unsuccessful in making it work properly. It can be done, but the shaft extension would need some form of support. I attached a photo that shows how I did a Mantua/Tyco Pacific, 4-6-2. The motor is from Allelectronics and was pretty reasonable cost. While actual P-7's were able to run at 80 mph, the 28 to 1 gearing of the NWSL gear box coupled with the motor puts this guy at around 50-60 mph. This is good enough for me. I do not want any engine running at 80 mph on my layout anyway. I also did an 0-6-0 using and NWSL 36 to 1 idler gearbox and a smaller can motor, but do not have any photos of that.

I don't mind saying that opening up the frame to accommodate the gearbox was tedious and the most difficult part of the process. Making the motor mount was not difficult. I tried making one from .032 brass strips, but ended up making one out of .040 stock. I think .062 might be better but more work.

Maybe others on this list can give additional ideas.

Good luck and regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of steve michener shrubman141@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 6:07 PM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] 0-4-0 mantua

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26263	From: Wally Weart	Date: 2/22/2017
Subject: Re: Eary freight car

Attachments :

Thanks to all who replied and I'll make sure the listing is accurate.

Wally

Denver & Intermountain 01521

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26264	From: steve michener	Date: 2/22/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Thank you Dave for getting back to me. I'll give these guys a try and see where it gets me.
Thanks again, Steve

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 21, 2017, at 6:07 PM, steve michener <shrubman141@...> wrote:
>
>
> Denny from CWrailman told me to give you guys a try. I have a Mantua 0-4-0 shifter that I would like to remoter. I have remotored 2 in the past, 1 shifter & 1 camel back. I was fortunate to have Helix Humpers for both of them. Unfortunately they are very difficult to come by now. I'm sure I could find a motor that would work fine. There was one in Dennys blog that he had tested for brass steam. Mounting it is what puzzles me. I would like to get it done without regearing the whole thing. Any suggestions?
> Thanks,Steve
> Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26265	From: maryinvt2	Date: 2/23/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Hi Steve,
For a long time, I've been looking for ways to improve the running of Mantua locos, both the bigger ones as well as the smaller ones and I finally came up with two ways to do that, one of which is the better way. BTW, both methods make them run nice and quiet and I do it with can motors.

First about the can motor.........I use a cheap 15.4mm wide motor and that measurement is about as big as can be installed in most Mantuas due to the limitations of the boiler dimensions unless one has milling capabilities which I don't. The motor I use costs $1.20 each at All Electronics and it's catalog #DCM-476, rated at 6 - 24 volts made by Mabuchi.

The first method I tried was to use a Mantua logger gear box which worked well but they are hard to find. I then tried the second method which is my favorite. Fortunately, I had some old Mantua open frame motors kicking around. To do this it takes two of these motors as donors. What I do is completely disassemble both motors because I only use the motor frames to fashion an open gear box out of them which enables the use of the above mentioned can motor. I'm not very good at putting pictures on forums so if you want to PM me I can email you all the picture about it and give you more details on how it's done.
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26266	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/23/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Attachments :

Hi Richard,

If your details are in Word, I can add the photos and details to this site. Please send me what you can. I will let you see it before I load to the group to be sure it is correct.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 11:46 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26267	From: al4303@att.net	Date: 2/23/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Take a look at Northwest Shortline's "how to pages" at their web site and you'll see a motor gear mounting system with instructions for all Mantua steam locos. A little more expensive than what has been suggested here, but...

I have no connection with them other than as a satisfied customer.

Also take a look at Yardbird Trains Group. In their photo section are many many photos of various re-motoring systems and ideas along with pictures.

Allen Wood

Chico,Ca.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26268	From: J. L. Edwards	Date: 2/23/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

That was helpful Vic.

I'm gonna be remotoring several locomotives then sell.

I intend to make dimensional drawings for components with an eye to adapting one of my Micro- Mills or lathes in the future to CNC for small batches....

This will take some testing and evaluation as I figure out what works best, where with an eye to economy and quality. So say, what readily available motor has the right characteristics for several HO locomotives? That allows me to simplify design of the motor mount....

I certainly have the Machine shop for this:

Unimat 3 Lathe

Unimat FB-1 mill

Cameron model 154 Drill press, which is going up for sale if anyone is interested? It's being replaced with a Levin unit.

If I needed to make insanely tiny I have a 1902 Wolf Jahn 8mm Watchmakers lathe. ;)

Cheers for now.

-Jeff (Ont/Canada & Central Upstate, NY)

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26269	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/23/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

I regeared a couple of Docksides with the small NWSL can motor. It did not have enough power to pull anything and barely enough to move itself.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 4:32 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 0-4-0 mantua

You can try the A-Line web site for motors. Or, Northwest Short Line. who

also has motors. They also offer a re-gear service, which I have used and

I am very happy with the results!

Dave Audley

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 1:00 AM, "steve michener shrubman141@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Denny from CWrailman told me to give you guys a try. I have a Mantua 0-4-0 shifter that I would like to remoter. I have remotored 2 in the past, 1 shifter & 1 camel back. I was fortunate to have Helix Humpers for both of them. Unfortunately they are very difficult to come by now. I'm sure I could find a motor that would work fine. There was one in Dennys blog that he had tested for brass steam. Mounting it is what puzzles me. I would like to get it done without regearing the whole thing. Any suggestions?
Thanks,Steve
Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26270	From: shrubman141@gmail.com	Date: 2/24/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Richard,
Thanks for the info. I have several mantua open frame motors. Can you text me photos?
Text to 845-781-3560
Thanks, Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26271	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 2/24/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Richard, All:
I've been watching this thread with considerable interest as I am in the
same situation. I got my first Mantua Shifter in the late 1950's, and
still have it. I also have a couple extra motors. If you are sending
photos to Steve, would it be too much to ask for you to copy me the same
information and photos? I thank you for your consideration to the List
and the rest of us with your success with these.
Dennis

On 2/24/2017 11:43 AM,
h3jyxgsvclrbepdotpivxy3tdahp4df6ctthx5r6@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Richard,
> Thanks for the info. I have several mantua open frame motors. Can you text me photos?
> Text to 845-781-3560
> Thanks, Steve
>
> -

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26272	From: ajfergusonca	Date: 2/24/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Richard:

add me to the list for pictures. This sounds like a good solution.

Allen

email: ajfergus@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26273	From: maryinvt2	Date: 2/25/2017
Subject: Re: 0-4-0 mantua

Hi AJ
I will be glad to send pictures but your email address didn't come thru. PM me if you can.
Richard in Vermont.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26274	From: david vartanoff	Date: 2/25/2017
Subject: Hobbyline Tank car kits

Going through old stuff...

Found 2 "Baby Ruth Tank car kits never built.

Any interest, please email me directly

TIA

David Vartanoff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26275	From: sswcharlie	Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: WTB Revell 1/87 Transrapid 07

Hi

Does anyone have a Revell HO Transrapid 07 Maglev kit. A static model. Any condition

Thanks

Charles Harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26276	From: cwrailman	Date: 3/9/2017
Subject: Vintage motors for sale

I know some of you prefer to use vintage motors instead of currently available can motors so here are two sales for NOS stock I ran across that may interest some of you.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pittman-DC-70-12volt-DC-Electric-Motor-NOS/351998671735?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41376%26meid%3D1a1bdcb3523c4dc98fdd3746401bc4a1%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D232264682028

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pittman-DC-84-12volt-DC-Electric-Motor-NOS/332146642683?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41376%26meid%3D1a1bdcb3523c4dc98fdd3746401bc4a1%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D232264682028

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26277	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/9/2017
Subject: Anyone help this guy on the LayourConstruction group??

Posted by: Larry Blanchard <labl02@...>

> Any real old timers on this list? A while back I picked up some HO
> ballast packages at an estate sale. They were labelled "Mad Dog" and a
> price sticker was affixed. The ballast sinks so I guess it isn't walnut
> shells.
>
> I've been unable to find out anything about it online. Anyone here know
> the history of this product? If so, please enlighten me. I'm curious.

Tks..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26278	From: cwrailman	Date: 3/9/2017
Subject: A Long Shafted Replacement Motor

Some time ago a member of this board contacted me looking for a motor with a long shaft. At the time I was not able to make any suggestions to suit his needs now however I may be able to recommend a suitable motor though it is not open frame. Check out our CWRailman 03/09/2017 Blog to see our test of a Nichibo 24v 15mm x 20mm x 28mm motor with a 2.0mm dia x 25mm long shaft that we though might be suited to remotoring locomotives and check out the attached video for a brief demonstration.

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26279	From: oklacnw	Date: 3/11/2017
Subject: Fwd: Re: [cnw] Digest Number 5487

--
Al E.

> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 13:21:33 -0600
> From: <oklacnw@...>
> To: No Reply <notify-dg-cnw@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [cnw] Digest Number 5487
> Cc: cnw@yahoogroups.com
>
> Hello everyone in this group,im stan Erdmann Al Erdmanns son,on behalf of dad he has asked me to let everyone know that he has been very sick the last two weeks with pneumonia and some heart issues spent a week in the hospital and transferred to a nursing home temporarily for rehabilitation,he is still a bit weak but improving daily and says he cant wait to get back home and online to correspond with you all.please keep him and my mom in your prayers as both of them are being cared for in the hospital and nursing home!Thanks and have a great day!
> --
> Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26280	From: Richard L. Carbo	Date: 3/11/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [cnw] Digest Number 5487

Thoughts and prayers coming their way.

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 11, 2017, at 2:24 PM, oklacnw@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

--
Al E.

> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 13:21:33 -0600
> From: <oklacnw@...>
> To: No Reply <notify-dg-cnw@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [cnw] Digest Number 5487
> Cc: cnw@yahoogroups.com
>
> Hello everyone in this group,im stan Erdmann Al Erdmanns son,on behalf of dad he has asked me to let everyone know that he has been very sick the last two weeks with pneumonia and some heart issues spent a week in the hospital and transferred to a nursing home temporarily for rehabilitation,he is still a bit weak but improving daily and says he cant wait to get back home and online to correspond with you all.please keep him and my mom in your prayers as both of them are being cared for in the hospital and nursing home!Thanks and have a great day!
> --
> Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26281	From: Cathy Palmer	Date: 3/29/2017
Subject: Mantua sharknose

I have a mantua sharknose built in the 1950s and the engine will not run I wanted to know if there was a different motor you could put in this locomotive. Instead of the original motor.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®4

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26282	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/29/2017
Subject: Re: Mantua sharknose

Hi Cathy,

These Mantua MU (?) motors are practically indestructible. But, as far as I know, there is no direct motor replacement, except maybe getting one off of eBay. Usually you can find one for about 10 bucks. Also Hobbytown of Boston used to make a new chassis for these old sharks. You did need to cut off the great big weight that hung down from the center. But, I digress.

You probably can make this thing run and run quite nicely. It probably just needs cleaning and some minor lubrication. Just Google on fixing a Mantua motor. Here is one youtube that describes how to clean and lube a similar motor. Not a shark, but very similar in design,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGfIyZ_OrNk

Just be careful about taking off the screws and stuff. Work on a clean sheet of white paper and take pictures with your cell phone so you can put stuff back the right way. Once you expose the brushes, you can take a q-tip or toothpick soaked in alcohol and clean the commutator carefully. Get some model train lubricant, such as Labelle 107 and put a tiny drop on the bronze bushings. You can slowly and carefully turn the armature with your fingers until it turns smoothly. I will bet it is just stuck from lack of use and old age. I purchased one of these that wouldn't run and ten minutes with the above procedures it ran as smooth as silk. It would be good to put light grease on the worm gears after the old hardened grease is removed also.

Good luck and regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Cathy Palmer bivens74@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 7:20 PM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua sharknose

I have a mantua sharknose built in the 1950s and the engine will not run I wanted to know if there was a different motor you could put in this locomotive. Instead of the original motor.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®4

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26283	From: greenbrier614	Date: 3/29/2017
Subject: Re: Mantua sharknose

I second Vic's advice. Most old locos can be resurrected with cleaning and lubrication. Since the rear truck has an integrated motor it's not possible to drop in a replacement.

Here are two threads by Darth Santa Fe from the Model Railroader forum that deal with the metal Shark that will show you the original MU-1 power truck. His example had a weak motor magnet that caused poor performance, so he replaced it with some rare earth magnets. Hopefully that isn't the case with yours, but replacing the magnet is a lot easier than remotoring.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/193717.aspx

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/195040/2389996.aspx

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26284	From: bivens74@hotmail.com	Date: 3/29/2017
Subject: Re: Mantua sharknose

Ok I got it running but it runs really slow when it's on the track but when it's not on the track it runs fast is there something wrong with the mantua sharknose.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26285	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/29/2017
Subject: Re: Mantua sharknose

As it runs freely when not on the track, but slows up under load (it's own weight) on the track, this would seem to indicate that the magnet has weakened as the most probable cause for it running slow. Check the unpowered truck for axle binding also and make sure all wheels rotate freely. Nothing wrong with these Mantua Sharknose models in general; they're usually good running locos, even if the Hobbytown conversion would improve it.

In a message dated 3/30/2017 1:22:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ok I got it running but it runs really slow when it's on the track but when it's not on the track it runs fast is there something wrong with the mantua sharknose.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26286	From: gerard_sr	Date: 3/30/2017
Subject: Re: Mantua sharknose

Ask around your local hobby shop for someone that is a remote controlled battery race car enthusiast. Some of these guys, I once knew one, have built a magnetizer or re-magnatizer. This is a device with one heck of a lot of coils of wire and an adjustable vice like holder to grasp magnets. They place a weak magnet or one not as strong as they like between the vice like holder and turn on the juice. It rejuvenates magnets.
The purpose they do this is to make the motors in competition battery powered race cars stronger. Not entirely legit in the race car circuit, but by doing this they can prove the motors were not taken apart but actually run better and they can possibly win more races with a better motor.
There are two types of these, one is powered by a car battery and one that is powered by rectified AC from the wall. Theory is that the AC powered one is better because it pulses the magnetic field it generates and by clamping the week magnet in the holder the pulses strengthen the magnet.

Or you can carefully measure the magnet and go online in search of a magnet supplier that will have a rare earth magnet of the appropriate size to replace your weak one.

Finally, if the engine is very old, someone along the way may have use excessive lubricant of the wrong type. This wrong type of lubricant may have seeped or splashed on the armature winding's and partially dissolved some of the varnish on the copper wire forming internal shorts. Very hard to find and very hard to rewind a motor.

Good Luck,
Gerry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26287	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/30/2017
Subject: Re: Mantua sharknose

If you are testing it at the motor, the wheels could be dirty and just not picking up enough juice.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of bivens74@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 10:09 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua sharknose

Ok I got it running but it runs really slow when it's on the track but when it's not on the track it runs fast is there something wrong with the mantua sharknose.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26288	From: trainliker	Date: 3/30/2017
Subject: Re: Mantua sharknose

You can also take small magnets and stack them up in the original magnet area. The chances of finding a magnet already of the correct size is pretty slim.

Here is something discussing the issue some.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/232324/2599802.aspx

They have a link to Micro-Mark magnets, but that link doesn't work. This one does and has a picture of little "super magnets" stacked up in a typical open frame motor.

http://www.micromark.com/search?keywords=magnets

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26289	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/30/2017
Subject: Re: Mantua sharknose

K&J Magnetics sells all kinds of magnets at very lost cost with very reasonable shipping. I believe the Mantua MU motor uses a 1/2 cube magnet.

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=11

Scroll down and look at B888 -N42 and B888 -N52. I am not sure what the difference is. I am guessing the N52 is stronger, because it costs more. I would go with the N42 as that probably has WAYYY more strength than the original does. A too strong magnet could really be a detriment.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 10:36 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua sharknose

You can also take small magnets and stack them up in the original magnet area. The chances of finding a magnet already of the correct size is pretty slim.

Here is something discussing the issue some.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/232324/2599802.aspx

Opinion requested, magnet replacement - Model Railroader Magazine - Model Railroading, Model Trains, Reviews, Track Plans, and Forums

cs.trains.com

Model Railroader is the world's largest magazine on model trains and model railroad layouts. We feature beginner and advanced help on all model railroading scales, including layout track plans, model railroad product reviews, model train news, and model railroad forums.

They have a link to Micro-Mark magnets, but that link doesn't work. This one does and has a picture of little "super magnets" stacked up in a typical open frame motor.

http://www.micromark.com/search?keywords=magnets

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26290	From: trainguru	Date: 4/7/2017
Subject: Re: Mantua sharknose

Mantua Sharks are a finicky bunch, but worth efforts towards running.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26291	From: bivens74@hotmail.com	Date: 4/9/2017
Subject: Lionel ho gs4

I have a lionel ho scale gs4 that is in need of the right side or engineers side of the piston rod assembly that goes into the cylinder and I wanted to know if the bachmann gs4 rod assembly part would work on the lionel gs4 and also the original lionel part is destroyed and it can not be fixed

Help.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26292	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/9/2017
Subject: Re: Lionel ho gs4

The H0 Lionel SP GS-4 Northern was made by Bachmann for Lionel, so yes the parts will fit.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/9/2017 8:38:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I have a lionel ho scale gs4 that is in need of the right side or engineers side of the piston rod assembly that goes into the cylinder and I wanted to know if the bachmann gs4 rod assembly part would work on the lionel gs4 and also the original lionel part is destroyed and it can not be fixed

Help.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26293	From: toytrain13	Date: 4/25/2017
Subject: Need Varney Super Mikado parts

Attachments :

Varney drawbar pocket.jpg

Hello- Can anyone help me to obtain the two Varney castings shown in the attachment. These are what supports the rear end of the frame on a Varney Super Mikado (and other "Super" locos too). The loco I purchased on eBay recently was missing these (this was not apparent in the eBay photos). I'm restoring the loco but without these items I'm stuck!

Regards- Richard W.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26294	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/9/2017
Subject: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vint

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@...>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99

Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT

Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

•	Located: seven hills, OH, United States
•	Member since: Jun 13, 2010
•	Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26295	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 5/9/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO

I had purchased a 5 car set from ebay 2 years ago. They were AMT. Aluminum extrusions with metal ends, diecast floor and trucks. Looks exactly like these ones that are marked KTM. I sold mine off as I was only interested in the power that came with it. A Penn Line Reading Crusader. Seller had talked up a storm on the cars but made only a mention of a "cool" looking locomotive. .....Gary

Sent from BlueMail

On May 9, 2017, at 11:59 AM, "Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@...>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99

Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT

Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

• Located: seven hills, OH, United States

• Member since: Jun 13, 2010

• Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[# 93c415e20c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87 b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26296	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 5/9/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO

AMT is the same company that had all the 1:25 car kits, and when they started out in yje 1950's, as I recall they also used the name KMT" for the friction models and some of the promotional models they made, so the two names are pretty much interchangeable. There is still lots of room for confusion however, wasn't the Japanese builder "KTM" not "KMT"? Also, there was an outfit selling 027 models back around 1960 or so. "KMT" standing for "Kusan Model Trains", also known as "Kusan-Auburn".

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 5/9/17, Gary Mittner mittner@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 9, 2017, 11:24 AM

I had purchased a 5 car set from ebay 2
years ago. They were AMT. Aluminum extrusions with metal
ends, diecast floor and trucks. Looks exactly like these
ones that are marked KTM. I sold mine off as I was only
interested in the power that came
with it. A Penn Line Reading Crusader. Seller had talked up
a storm on the cars but made only a mention of a
"cool" looking locomotive. .....Gary

Sent from BlueMail

On May 9, 2017, at
11:59 AM, "Walter Bayer II bayerw2@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller.
Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT
passenger cars?

Regards,

Walter

---------- Forwarded
message ----------

From: eBay -
jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@...>

Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM

Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a
message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set
of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131

To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from:
jbjtreasures
(193)

Hi
! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is
KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the
stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear
hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it
is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was
the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I
think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys,
not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are
collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii

To: jbjtreasures

Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message
about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6
Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131

Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear
jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys,
not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are
collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT
Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted
w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99
Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT
Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place
bid

Get to know the seller
jbjtreasures
•Located: seven hills, OH, United
States•Member since: Jun 13, 2010•Positive Feedback:
100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase
protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete
a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#
93c415e20c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87 b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply
to this message. If you have a question, go to

Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii).
Learn more about
account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy.
Learn more about our
privacy notice and
user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369 --
#yiv1274975369ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mkp #yiv1274975369hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mkp #yiv1274975369ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mkp .yiv1274975369ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mkp .yiv1274975369ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mkp .yiv1274975369ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1274975369ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1274975369ygrp-lc #yiv1274975369hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1274975369ygrp-lc .yiv1274975369ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369activity span
.yiv1274975369underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1274975369 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1274975369 dd.yiv1274975369last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1274975369 dd.yiv1274975369last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1274975369 dd.yiv1274975369last p
span.yiv1274975369yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv1274975369 div.yiv1274975369attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1274975369 div.yiv1274975369attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv1274975369 div.yiv1274975369file-title a, #yiv1274975369
div.yiv1274975369file-title a:active, #yiv1274975369
div.yiv1274975369file-title a:hover, #yiv1274975369
div.yiv1274975369file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1274975369 div.yiv1274975369photo-title a,
#yiv1274975369 div.yiv1274975369photo-title a:active,
#yiv1274975369 div.yiv1274975369photo-title a:hover,
#yiv1274975369 div.yiv1274975369photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1274975369 div#yiv1274975369ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv1274975369ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1274975369yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv1274975369 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv1274975369 .yiv1274975369replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv1274975369 input, #yiv1274975369 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1274975369
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1274975369logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-msg
p#yiv1274975369attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-reco
#yiv1274975369reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-sponsor #yiv1274975369ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-sponsor #yiv1274975369ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-sponsor #yiv1274975369ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv1274975369 #yiv1274975369ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv1274975369

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26297	From: louis niederlander	Date: 5/9/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO

AMT = Authentic Model Turnpike

KTM = Katsumi

Regards,

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 6:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26298	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/9/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started in the early 1950's and KMT (K * M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late 1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company. While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were "copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger car construction was very similar to that of AMT, in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and ends were diecast metal. Both AMT and KTM produced only shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger cars they produced, although not consider as "shorties" (60' to 65'), while both companies offered only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202 Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206 Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach) and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not helping you with this issue, but still adding to the knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog # 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on brackets. Otherwise, the illumination was similar. This is one major difference though, and there is one other notable difference, however you would need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and that is that the screw mounting holes were different from one manufacturer to the other. But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen that these are not AMT cars even though quite similar. BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller (recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they didn't follow my packing instructions; they used a padded envelope instead of a more protective corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased (it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@...>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99

Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT

Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

• Located: seven hills, OH, United States

• Member since: Jun 13, 2010

• Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[# 93c415e20c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87 b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26299	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/9/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

I owned several AMT cars, and I still own the baggage car, which I am "super-detailing" (adding handrails, roof vents, etc.). The bottom of the floor casting clearly states, in LARGE CAPS, "AMERICAN MODEL TOYS".

I thought the trucks on the AMT cars were very nicely detailed, very good looking. But the trick bolster especially suffered from severe zinc pest. I substituted trucks from Railway Classics, Inc., #TR11. They are a close match!

Regards,
Walter

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started in the early 1950's and KMT (K * M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late 1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company. While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were "copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger car construction was very similar to that of AMT, in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger cars they produced, although not consider as "shorties" (60' to 65'), while both companies offered only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202 Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206 Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach) and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not helping you with this issue, but still adding to the knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog # 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on brackets. Otherwise, the illumination was similar. This is one major difference though, and there is one other notable difference, however you would need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and that is that the screw mounting holes were different from one manufacturer to the other. But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen that these are not AMT cars even though quite similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller (recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they didn't follow my packing instructions; they used a padded envelope instead of a more protective corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased (it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members. ebay.com>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99

Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT

Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

• Located: seven hills, OH, United States

• Member since: Jun 13, 2010

• Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20 c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26300	From: Graeme	Date: 5/9/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO

In message <69958023.5748075.1494354567873@...>, "Donald
Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes

>Also, there was an outfit selling 027 models back around 1960 or so.
>"KMT" standing for "Kusan Model Trains", also known as "Kusan-Auburn".

A brief history of AMT, KMT, Kusan etc. :

http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/kusan/index.html

--
Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26301	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Growing up in Detroit I must have bought hundreds of these at $1.25 each. But, I was under the impression it was American METAL Toys, Troy Mi. I believe a Hobby Shop owner told me that. That is what I remember. I also wondered WHY METAL. But looking at the history they did make the model cars in metal in the 1930's and 40's.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 6:21 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

Regards,
Walter

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started in the early 1950's and KMT (K * M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late 1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company. While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were "copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger car construction was very similar to that of AMT, in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger cars they produced, although not consider as "shorties" (60' to 65'), while both companies offered only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202 Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206 Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach) and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not helping you with this issue, but still adding to the knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog # 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on brackets. Otherwise, the illumination was similar. This is one major difference though, and there is one other notable difference, however you would need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and that is that the screw mounting holes were different from one manufacturer to the other. But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen that these are not AMT cars even though quite similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller (recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they didn't follow my packing instructions; they used a padded envelope instead of a more protective corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased (it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members. ebay.com>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99

Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT

Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

• Located: seven hills, OH, United States

• Member since: Jun 13, 2010

• Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20 c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26302	From: louis niederlander	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

I built a few 1/25th cars in my time also. You can Google Authentic Model Turnpike and also look at their slot race set. It had steerable cars. Big $$$ back in the 60's.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 3:21 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

Regards,
Walter

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started in the early 1950's and KMT (K * M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late 1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company. While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were "copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger car construction was very similar to that of AMT, in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger cars they produced, although not consider as "shorties" (60' to 65'), while both companies offered only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202 Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206 Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach) and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not helping you with this issue, but still adding to the knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog # 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on brackets. Otherwise, the illumination was similar. This is one major difference though, and there is one other notable difference, however you would need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and that is that the screw mounting holes were different from one manufacturer to the other. But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen that these are not AMT cars even though quite similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller (recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they didn't follow my packing instructions; they used a padded envelope instead of a more protective corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased (it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members. ebay.com>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99

Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT

Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

• Located: seven hills, OH, United States

• Member since: Jun 13, 2010

• Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20 c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26303	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

AMT is still around, now owned and operated by Round 2 Models, they still produce 1/25 scale plastic cars and trucks, they also own Lindburg, MPC and now have some sort of collaboration with Classic Metal Works, the producer of HO and N scale model vehicles, the original name for AMT was Aluminum Model Toys, as their first products were basically cast aluminum toys and models, they later got involved with making Dealer promos, and ultimately started producing the early promos as kits for the hobby market, and as time marched on, their models have become much more detailed, (as of the 1960's), as a model car builder myself, its been fun to watch all the banter about the old AMT, to my knowledge, I don't know whether or not they ever produced any model railroad related items, they very well could have over the years, however, in their current configuration, most of what Round 2 is releasing is many of the older plastic car kits, including many of the cool Trophy Series kits, unfortunately, they are no longer priced at $1.25, its now between $25 and $30 a kit now! Thank God for the 40% off coupon at Hobby Lobby that comes up every week on my Hobby Lobby App!

Gary W

Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 12:33:43 PM EDT, louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I built a few 1/25th cars in my time also. You can Google Authentic Model Turnpike and also look at their slot race set. It had steerable cars. Big $$$ back in the 60's.

Louis N

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

Regards,
Walter

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started in the early 1950's and KMT (K * M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late 1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company. While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were "copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger car construction was very similar to that of AMT, in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger cars they produced, although not consider as "shorties" (60' to 65'), while both companies offered only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202 Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206 Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach) and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not helping you with this issue, but still adding to the knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog # 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on brackets. Otherwise, the illumination was similar. This is one major difference though, and there is one other notable difference, however you would need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and that is that the screw mounting holes were different from one manufacturer to the other. But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen that these are not AMT cars even though quite similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller (recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they didn't follow my packing instructions; they used a padded envelope instead of a more protective corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased (it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members. ebay.com>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99
Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT
Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

• Located: seven hills, OH, United States
• Member since: Jun 13, 2010
• Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20 c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26304	From: louis niederlander	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Thanks for the insight. One can only hope that if they have Lindburg tooling that we may see trucks.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Gary Woodard betsy662@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 5:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Gary W

Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 12:33:43 PM EDT, louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I built a few 1/25th cars in my time also. You can Google Authentic Model Turnpike and also look at their slot race set. It had steerable cars. Big $$$ back in the 60's.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 3:21 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Growing up in Detroit I must have bought hundreds of these at $1.25 each. But, I was under the impression it was American METAL Toys, Troy Mi. I believe a Hobby Shop owner told me that. That is what I remember. I also wondered WHY METAL. But looking at the history they did make the model cars in metal in the 1930's and 40's.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 6:21 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

I owned several AMT cars, and I still own the baggage car, which I am "super-detailing" (adding handrails, roof vents, etc.). The bottom of the floor casting clearly states, in LARGE CAPS, "AMERICAN MODEL TOYS".

I thought the trucks on the AMT cars were very nicely detailed, very good looking. But the trick bolster especially suffered from severe zinc pest. I substituted trucks from Railway Classics, Inc., #TR11. They are a close match!

Regards,
Walter

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started in the early 1950's and KMT (K * M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late 1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company. While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were "copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger car construction was very similar to that of AMT, in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger cars they produced, although not consider as "shorties" (60' to 65'), while both companies offered only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202 Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206 Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach) and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not helping you with this issue, but still adding to the knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog # 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on brackets. Otherwise, the illumination was similar. This is one major difference though, and there is one other notable difference, however you would need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and that is that the screw mounting holes were different from one manufacturer to the other. But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen that these are not AMT cars even though quite similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller (recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they didn't follow my packing instructions; they used a padded envelope instead of a more protective corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased (it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members. ebay.com>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99

Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT

Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

• Located: seven hills, OH, United States

• Member since: Jun 13, 2010

• Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20 c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26305	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Doesn't sound like the same company.

Regards,
Walter

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Gary Woodard betsy662@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

AMT is still around, now owned and operated by Round 2 Models, they still produce 1/25 scale plastic cars and trucks, they also own Lindburg, MPC and now have some sort of collaboration with Classic Metal Works, the producer of HO and N scale model vehicles, the original name for AMT was Aluminum Model Toys, as their first products were basically cast aluminum toys and models, they later got involved with making Dealer promos, and ultimately started producing the early promos as kits for the hobby market, and as time marched on, their models have become much more detailed, (as of the 1960's), as a model car builder myself, its been fun to watch all the banter about the old AMT, to my knowledge, I don't know whether or not they ever produced any model railroad related items, they very well could have over the years, however, in their current configuration, most of what Round 2 is releasing is many of the older plastic car kits, including many of the cool Trophy Series kits, unfortunately, they are no longer priced at $1.25, its now between $25 and $30 a kit now! Thank God for the 40% off coupon at Hobby Lobby that comes up every week on my Hobby Lobby App!

Gary W

Click HERE http://www.eeinternational. org/pages/page.asp?page_id= 31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 12:33:43 PM EDT, louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I built a few 1/25th cars in my time also. You can Google Authentic Model Turnpike and also look at their slot race set. It had steerable cars. Big $$$ back in the 60's.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 3:21 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Growing up in Detroit I must have bought hundreds of these at $1.25 each. But, I was under the impression it was American METAL Toys, Troy Mi. I believe a Hobby Shop owner told me that. That is what I remember. I also wondered WHY METAL. But looking at the history they did make the model cars in metal in the 1930's and 40's.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 6:21 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

I owned several AMT cars, and I still own the baggage car, which I am "super-detailing" (adding handrails, roof vents, etc.). The bottom of the floor casting clearly states, in LARGE CAPS, "AMERICAN MODEL TOYS".

I thought the trucks on the AMT cars were very nicely detailed, very good looking. But the trick bolster especially suffered from severe zinc pest. I substituted trucks from Railway Classics, Inc., #TR11. They are a close match!

Regards,
Walter

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started in the early 1950's and KMT (K * M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late 1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company. While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were "copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger car construction was very similar to that of AMT, in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger cars they produced, although not consider as "shorties" (60' to 65'), while both companies offered only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202 Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206 Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach) and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not helping you with this issue, but still adding to the knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog # 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on brackets. Otherwise, the illumination was similar. This is one major difference though, and there is one other notable difference, however you would need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and that is that the screw mounting holes were different from one manufacturer to the other. But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen that these are not AMT cars even though quite similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller (recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they didn't follow my packing instructions; they used a padded envelope instead of a more protective corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased (it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members. ebay.com>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99
Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT
Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

• Located: seven hills, OH, United States
• Member since: Jun 13, 2010
• Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20 c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26306	From: trainliker	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent amessage about ...

Attachments :

B1A0E02AD7E944079C79C1DAE9096085.png

5107568397794F3BA006E1ED55698B33.png

3CAC6895B1B24F0E9AD82FDA984AF752.png

Also 1/32 cars and many other things. Even a 1/8 scale “Rupp Roadster” mini bike. Ships, planes, trucks, and space stuff (Remember “Space 1999”?)

I got their 1/25 Studebaker Avanti re-issue of a few years back (I have a real one) and the kit had additional printing on the box bottom and some additions inside the box such as an extra set of a different style of wheels and a nice color brochure.

More recently, they have re-run the “All Stars” 1/32 series but renamed it “Scale Stars” on the box art.

Not all models they have reproduced still show on their web site. May have simply sold out?

They have remade kits from AMT, MPC, Polar Lights, The Lindberg Line, and Hawk. Those of a “certain age” will remember seeing many of these on the hobby shop shelves.

If you know some kid (of any age) who might want to assemble some classic and cool models instead of staring at their smart phone, they’ve got all sorts of them.

To keep this post railroad related, I checked and they have nothing railroad related.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gary Woodard betsy662@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 10:12 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent amessage about ...

Gary W

Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 12:33:43 PM EDT, louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I built a few 1/25th cars in my time also. You can Google Authentic Model Turnpike and also look at their slot race set. It had steerable cars. Big $$$ back in the 60's.

Louis N

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

Regards,
Walter

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started in the early 1950's and KMT (K * M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late 1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company. While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were "copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger car construction was very similar to that of AMT, in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger cars they produced, although not consider as "shorties" (60' to 65'), while both companies offered only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202 Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206 Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach) and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not helping you with this issue, but still adding to the knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog # 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on brackets. Otherwise, the illumination was similar. This is one major difference though, and there is one other notable difference, however you would need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and that is that the screw mounting holes were different from one manufacturer to the other. But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen that these are not AMT cars even though quite similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller (recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they didn't follow my packing instructions; they used a padded envelope instead of a more protective corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased (it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members. ebay.com>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)
Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet
Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet
- jbjtreasures

Your previous message
I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT
Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.
- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99
Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT
Bids: 1
Free Shipping
Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures
•
Located: seven hills, OH, United States
•
Member since: Jun 13, 2010
•
Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20 c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]
We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.
eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.
©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26307	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Oh that's right I had forgotten about all those trucks

Gary W

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 1:37 PM, louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks for the insight. One can only hope that if they have Lindburg tooling that we may see trucks.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Gary Woodard betsy662@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 5:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

AMT is still around, now owned and operated by Round 2 Models, they still produce 1/25 scale plastic cars and trucks, they also own Lindburg, MPC and now have some sort of collaboration with Classic Metal Works, the producer of HO and N scale model vehicles, the original name for AMT was Aluminum Model Toys, as their first products were basically cast aluminum toys and models, they later got involved with making Dealer promos, and ultimately started producing the early promos as kits for the hobby market, and as time marched on, their models have become much more detailed, (as of the 1960's), as a model car builder myself, its been fun to watch all the banter about the old AMT, to my knowledge, I don't know whether or not they ever produced any model railroad related items, they very well could have over the years, however, in their current configuration, most of what Round 2 is releasing is many of the older plastic car kits, including many of the cool Trophy Series kits, unfortunately, they are no longer priced at $1.25, its now between $25 and $30 a kit now! Thank God for the 40% off coupon at Hobby Lobby that comes up every week on my Hobby Lobby App!

Gary W

Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 12:33:43 PM EDT, louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I built a few 1/25th cars in my time also. You can Google Authentic Model Turnpike and also look at their slot race set. It had steerable cars. Big $$$ back in the 60's.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 3:21 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Growing up in Detroit I must have bought hundreds of these at $1.25 each. But, I was under the impression it was American METAL Toys, Troy Mi. I believe a Hobby Shop owner told me that. That is what I remember. I also wondered WHY METAL. But looking at the history they did make the model cars in metal in the 1930's and 40's.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 6:21 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

I owned several AMT cars, and I still own the baggage car, which I am "super-detailing" (adding handrails, roof vents, etc.). The bottom of the floor casting clearly states, in LARGE CAPS, "AMERICAN MODEL TOYS".

I thought the trucks on the AMT cars were very nicely detailed, very good looking. But the trick bolster especially suffered from severe zinc pest. I substituted trucks from Railway Classics, Inc., #TR11. They are a close match!

Regards,
Walter

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started in the early 1950's and KMT (K * M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late 1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company. While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were "copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger car construction was very similar to that of AMT, in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger cars they produced, although not consider as "shorties" (60' to 65'), while both companies offered only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202 Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206 Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach) and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not helping you with this issue, but still adding to the knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog # 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive, named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on brackets. Otherwise, the illumination was similar. This is one major difference though, and there is one other notable difference, however you would need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and that is that the screw mounting holes were different from one manufacturer to the other. But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen that these are not AMT cars even though quite similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller (recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they didn't follow my packing instructions; they used a padded envelope instead of a more protective corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased (it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller. Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT passenger cars?

Regards,
Walter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: eBay - jbjtreasures <jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members. ebay.com>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from: jbjtreasures (193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii
To: jbjtreasures
Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys, not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99
Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT
Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place bid

Get to know the seller jbjtreasures

• Located: seven hills, OH, United States
• Member since: Jun 13, 2010
• Positive Feedback: 100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20 c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply to this message. If you have a question, go to Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii). Learn more about account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy. Learn more about our privacy notice and user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26308	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

A lot of the old AMT car model KIts have also come out under the ERTL name, as well as some HO, expecially structure kits.

Don
--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/10/17, Gary Woodard betsy662@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 2:09 PM

Oh that's right I had forgotten about all those
trucks

Gary W

Sent
from Yahoo Mail on Android

Thanks for the insight. One can only hope that if they
have Lindburg tooling that we may see trucks.

Louis N

From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
on behalf of Gary Woodard betsy662@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 5:11 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item:
hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

AMT is still around, now owned and operated by Round 2
Models, they still produce 1/25 scale plastic cars and
trucks, they also own Lindburg, MPC and now have some sort
of collaboration with Classic Metal Works, the producer of
HO and N scale model vehicles,
the original name for AMT was Aluminum Model Toys, as their
first products were basically cast aluminum toys and models,
they later got involved with making Dealer promos, and
ultimately started producing the early promos as kits for
the hobby market, and
as time marched on, their models have become much more
detailed, (as of the 1960's), as a model car builder
myself, its been fun to watch all the banter about the old
AMT, to my knowledge, I don't know whether or not they
ever produced any model railroad related
items, they very well could have over the years, however,
in their current configuration, most of what Round 2 is
releasing is many of the older plastic car kits, including
many of the cool Trophy Series kits, unfortunately, they are
no longer priced at $1.25,
its now between $25 and $30 a kit now! Thank God for the
40% off coupon at Hobby Lobby that comes up every week on my
Hobby Lobby App!

Gary W

Click HERE
http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469
to answer life's two most important questions!

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 12:33:43 PM EDT, louis
niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I built a few 1/25th cars in my time also. You can
Google Authentic Model Turnpike and also look at their slot
race set. It had steerable cars. Big $$$ back in the
60's.

Louis N

From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
on behalf of Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@...
[vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 3:21 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item:
hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Growing up in Detroit I must have bought hundreds of
these at $1.25 each. But, I was under the impression it
was American METAL Toys, Troy Mi. I believe a Hobby Shop
owner told me that. That is what I remember. I also
wondered WHY METAL. But looking
at the history they did make the model cars in metal in the
1930's and 40's.

Vic
Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
on behalf of Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 6:21 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item:
hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

I owned several AMT cars, and I still own the baggage
car, which I am "super-detailing" (adding
handrails, roof vents, etc.). The bottom of the floor
casting clearly states, in LARGE CAPS, "AMERICAN MODEL
TOYS".

I thought the trucks on the AMT cars were very nicely
detailed, very good looking. But the trick bolster
especially suffered from severe zinc pest. I substituted
trucks from Railway Classics, Inc., #TR11. They are a close
match!

Regards,

Walter

On
Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM,
eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when
they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've
determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there
were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started
in the early 1950's and KMT (K *
M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late
1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company.
While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were
"copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger
car construction was very similar to that of AMT,
in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and
ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only
shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger
cars they produced, although not consider as
"shorties" (60' to 65'), while both
companies offered
only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or
RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both
companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O
scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced
in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202
Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206
Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach)
and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that
AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not
helping you with this issue, but still adding to the
knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two
different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog
# 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the
Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and
Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive,
named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day
Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette
and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for
illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were
part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site
that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on
brackets. Otherwise, the illumination
was similar. This is one major difference though, and
there is one other notable difference, however you would
need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and
that is that the screw mounting holes were different from
one manufacturer to the other.
But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen
that these are not AMT cars even though quite
similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller
(recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they
didn't follow my packing instructions; they
used a padded envelope instead of a more protective
corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased
(it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller.
Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT
passenger cars?

Regards,

Walter

----------
Forwarded message ----------

From: eBay
- jbjtreasures
<jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members.
ebay.com>

Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM

Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a
message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set
of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131

To:
bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from:
jbjtreasures
(193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it
is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was
the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear
hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it
is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was
the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys,
not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are
collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii

To: jbjtreasures

Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message
about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6
Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131

Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear
jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys,
not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are
collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO
Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt
Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99
Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT
Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place
bid

Get to know the seller
jbjtreasures
•Located: seven hills, OH, United
States•Member since: Jun 13, 2010•Positive Feedback:
100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase
protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete
a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20
c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply
to this message. If you have a question, go to

Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii).
Learn more about
account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy.
Learn more about our
privacy notice and
user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713 --
#yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp #yiv0377252713hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp #yiv0377252713ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp .yiv0377252713ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp .yiv0377252713ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp .yiv0377252713ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0377252713ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0377252713ygrp-lc #yiv0377252713hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0377252713ygrp-lc .yiv0377252713ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span
.yiv0377252713underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 dd.yiv0377252713last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 dd.yiv0377252713last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 dd.yiv0377252713last p
span.yiv0377252713yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713file-title a, #yiv0377252713
div.yiv0377252713file-title a:active, #yiv0377252713
div.yiv0377252713file-title a:hover, #yiv0377252713
div.yiv0377252713file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713photo-title a,
#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713photo-title a:active,
#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 div#yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0377252713ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0377252713yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0377252713 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0377252713 input, #yiv0377252713 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0377252713
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0377252713logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-msg
p#yiv0377252713attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-reco
#yiv0377252713reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor #yiv0377252713ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor #yiv0377252713ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor #yiv0377252713ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0377252713

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26309	From: jbkeik060811	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO

The AMT cars (American Model Toys, not the same company that made the plastic model kits) and the KMT (Kusan) are essentially one in the same. AMT produced the cars as HO versions of their O gauge cars, sans a dome car. When Kusan purchased AMT, they redesigned the chassis and also changed the couplers from the fixed knuckle on the AMT to an NMRA coupler. I have both the AMT & KMT cars, other than the chassis changes, they're identical.

Joe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26310	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Through the 80's and 90's, Ertl owned AMT, they were still produced under the AMT label, Ertl was also the ones who produced all the metal toy tractors and implements that could only be bought at implement dealers for a long time, until I guess they made a deal with Wal-Mart, they also worked in conjunction with Athearn to produce the John Deere Tractors in HO and in 1/50 scale, which gave us O scalers at the time some fresh toys for our model railroads as well.

Gary W

Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 4:59:57 PM EDT, Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

A lot of the old AMT car model KIts have also come out under the ERTL name, as well as some HO, expecially structure kits.

Don
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 5/10/17, Gary Woodard betsy662@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 2:09 PM

Oh that's right I had forgotten about all those
trucks

Gary W

Sent
from Yahoo Mail on Android

Thanks for the insight. One can only hope that if they
have Lindburg tooling that we may see trucks.

Louis N

From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
on behalf of Gary Woodard betsy662@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 5:11 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item:
hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

AMT is still around, now owned and operated by Round 2
Models, they still produce 1/25 scale plastic cars and
trucks, they also own Lindburg, MPC and now have some sort
of collaboration with Classic Metal Works, the producer of
HO and N scale model vehicles,
the original name for AMT was Aluminum Model Toys, as their
first products were basically cast aluminum toys and models,
they later got involved with making Dealer promos, and
ultimately started producing the early promos as kits for
the hobby market, and
as time marched on, their models have become much more
detailed, (as of the 1960's), as a model car builder
myself, its been fun to watch all the banter about the old
AMT, to my knowledge, I don't know whether or not they
ever produced any model railroad related
items, they very well could have over the years, however,
in their current configuration, most of what Round 2 is
releasing is many of the older plastic car kits, including
many of the cool Trophy Series kits, unfortunately, they are
no longer priced at $1.25,
its now between $25 and $30 a kit now! Thank God for the
40% off coupon at Hobby Lobby that comes up every week on my
Hobby Lobby App!

Gary W

Click HERE
http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469
to answer life's two most important questions!

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 12:33:43 PM EDT, louis
niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I built a few 1/25th cars in my time also. You can
Google Authentic Model Turnpike and also look at their slot
race set. It had steerable cars. Big $$$ back in the
60's.

Louis N

From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
on behalf of Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@...
[vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 3:21 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item:
hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Growing up in Detroit I must have bought hundreds of
these at $1.25 each. But, I was under the impression it
was American METAL Toys, Troy Mi. I believe a Hobby Shop
owner told me that. That is what I remember. I also
wondered WHY METAL. But looking
at the history they did make the model cars in metal in the
1930's and 40's.

Vic
Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
on behalf of Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 6:21 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item:
hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

RAY, DON, ET AL.,

Thanks for the useful info.

I owned several AMT cars, and I still own the baggage
car, which I am "super-detailing" (adding
handrails, roof vents, etc.). The bottom of the floor
casting clearly states, in LARGE CAPS, "AMERICAN MODEL
TOYS".

I thought the trucks on the AMT cars were very nicely
detailed, very good looking. But the trick bolster
especially suffered from severe zinc pest. I substituted
trucks from Railway Classics, Inc., #TR11. They are a close
match!

Regards,

Walter

On
Tue, May 9, 2017 at 4:59 PM,
eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Walter,

Well at least jbjtreasures is honest about it, when
they stated they found a KMT stamping. As far as I've
determined through reports of the HO SC&H SIG, there
were two companies; AMT (American Model Toys) which started
in the early 1950's and KMT (K *
M * T), produced by Kusan (Auburn/Kusan) in the late
1950's -- in Nashville, TN -- not a Japanese company.
While I couldn't say if the KMT passenger cars were
"copies," as in deliberate copies, KTM passenger
car construction was very similar to that of AMT,
in that the sides were heavy aluminum. The underframe and
ends were diecast metal.   Both AMT and KTM produced only
shortened (70') versions of these streamlined passenger
cars they produced, although not consider as
"shorties" (60' to 65'), while both
companies offered
only the same six cars without a vista (or strata) dome or
RPO. Too, both companies illuminated their cars and both
companies used (only) metal Santa Fe name plates.

While I'm not sure if AMT produced models in O
scale, KMT did. The passenger car models that KMT produced
in HO scale were -- with catalog numbers -- HO 202
Pullman-Roomette, HO 203 Diner, HO 205 Observation, HO 206
Day Coach, HO 207 Combination (Baggage/Coach)
and HO 208 Baggage. A minor difference was that
AMT's roomette was called a Bedroom-Roomette. Not
helping you with this issue, but still adding to the
knowledge of what KMT produced, they also offered two
different ATSF passenger sets, with an F-7 (Catalog
# 22) as power. One (3-car) set w/locomotive, named the
Santa Fe El Capitan consisted of the Combine, Day Coach and
Observation while the second (5-car) set w/locomotive,
named the Santa Fe Super Chief consisted of the Baggage, Day
Coach, Diner, Pullman-Roomette
and Observation.

One feature of AMT kits is that the two sockets (for
illumination) were cast integral with the floor (they were
part of the floor casting). I notice by this eBay site
that these KMT kits came with separate bulb sockets on
brackets. Otherwise, the illumination
was similar. This is one major difference though, and
there is one other notable difference, however you would
need to have a sample of both manufactures on hand, and
that is that the screw mounting holes were different from
one manufacturer to the other.
But just going by the separate bulb sockets, it can be seen
that these are not AMT cars even though quite
similar.  BTW, I've bought from this eBay seller
(recently) and found them to be reliable, even though they
didn't follow my packing instructions; they
used a padded envelope instead of a more protective
corrugated shipping carton for a Kar Line kit I purchased
(it arrived okay, luckily).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2017 12:00:12 P.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Dear Vintage H0 friends,

I am forwarding a brief exchange with an eBay seller.
Would anyone care to comment? Are there KMT copies of AMT
passenger cars?

Regards,

Walter

----------
Forwarded message ----------

From: eBay
- jbjtreasures
<jbjtre_hvwl4205piz@members.
ebay.com>

Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:30 PM

Subject: Re: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a
message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set
of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131

To:
bayerw2@...

New message: Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out t...

New message from:
jbjtreasures
(193)

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it
is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was
the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

Reply

Dear
hudsonhussarii,

Hi ! I got the magnifying glass out to double check and it
is KMT. Thank you for passing this info on in case that was
the stamping, I really appreciate it! Janet

- jbjtreasures

Your previous message

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys,
not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are
collectible vintage models.

From: hudsonhussarii

To: jbjtreasures

Subject: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message
about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6
Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131

Sent Date: May-08-17 10:49:37 PDT

Dear
jbjtreasures,

I think you meant, "AMT", for American Model Toys,
not KMT, which is a Japanese company. The AMT cars are
collectible vintage models.

- hudsonhussarii

HO
Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt
Unpainted w/lights

Current Bid: $24.99
Auction ends May 14, 2017 19:30 PDT
Bids: 1

Free Shipping

Place
bid

Get to know the seller
jbjtreasures
•Located: seven hills, OH, United
States•Member since: Jun 13, 2010•Positive Feedback:
100%

Only purchases on eBay are covered by the eBay purchase
protection programs. Asking your trading partner to complete
a transaction outside of eBay is not allowed.

Email reference id: [#a04-mo3xwrhhva#]_[#93c415e20
c2e4ba88f31eccf6d1c87b3#]

We don't check this mailbox, so please don't reply
to this message. If you have a question, go to

Help & Contact.

eBay sent this message to Walter Bayer II (hudsonhussarii).
Learn more about
account protection. eBay is committed to your privacy.
Learn more about our
privacy notice and
user agreement.

©2017 eBay Inc., 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713 --
#yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp #yiv0377252713hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp #yiv0377252713ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp .yiv0377252713ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp .yiv0377252713ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mkp .yiv0377252713ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0377252713ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0377252713ygrp-lc #yiv0377252713hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0377252713ygrp-lc .yiv0377252713ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713activity span
.yiv0377252713underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 dd.yiv0377252713last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 dd.yiv0377252713last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 dd.yiv0377252713last p
span.yiv0377252713yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713file-title a, #yiv0377252713
div.yiv0377252713file-title a:active, #yiv0377252713
div.yiv0377252713file-title a:hover, #yiv0377252713
div.yiv0377252713file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713photo-title a,
#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713photo-title a:active,
#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0377252713 div.yiv0377252713photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 div#yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0377252713ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0377252713yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0377252713 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0377252713 .yiv0377252713replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0377252713 input, #yiv0377252713 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0377252713
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0377252713logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-msg
p#yiv0377252713attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-reco
#yiv0377252713reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor #yiv0377252713ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor #yiv0377252713ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-sponsor #yiv0377252713ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0377252713 #yiv0377252713ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0377252713

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26311	From: louis niederlander	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Additionally Ertl provided the farm implements for the Right of Way Industries flat cars, which were O scale.

Lou N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Gary Woodard betsy662@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about ...

Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26312	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 5/10/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO

Just to muddy the waters a bit; there was/is a Japanese company known as KMT. This is Kumata and one of their specialties was passenger cars. Of course they were of brass construction and, as far as I know, only sold built-up.

More confusion: there also is KTM, aka Katsumi, whose primary product was locomotives of outstanding quality and durability.

As to Ertl, I don't think any of the HO items they sold had any link to the AMT company.

Fred Holladay

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jbkeik060811@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 3:26:17 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26313	From: jbkeik060811	Date: 5/11/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO

This has gone completely full circle and honestly, I'm embarrassed at some of the answers given here. Some of this stuff I figured to be common knowledge, especially amongst the older generation that actually grew up with these trains and other toys that have been brought into this discussion. I'm going to jump up on my soapbox for a second here to clear the confusion up.

First off, the American Model Toys Company and Aluminum Model Toy Company have absolutely zero connection with each other, other than sharing the same abbreviated name. One made trains, primarily O scale, the other made promotional models for Ford at first, then others. American Model Toys was renamed Auburn Model Trains and by 1954, sold to Kusan in Tennessee where it was named Kusan Model Trains, which was abbreviated to KMT. At all times, production of these was based in the USA.

I understand the KTM, KMT/NPP references but they do no good to answering the question since again, I assumed that most everyone belonging to a Vintage HO group knew that the trains manufactured by these guys were overseas brass. I'm sorry if this is coming off a bit harsh but most of this stuff could have been answered with a quick Google Search just to check your facts before posting, IF you weren't sure. Misinformed or under informed people are rewriting history everyday, can we try not to do it here also?

Joe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26314	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 5/11/2017
Subject: Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/10/17, Fred Holladay fvh2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Details about item: hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights #182564865131
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 4:55 PM

Just to muddy the waters a bit; there was/is a
Japanese company known as KMT. This is Kumata and one of
their specialties was passenger cars. Of course they were
of brass construction and, as far as I know, only sold
built-up.
    More confusion: there also is KTM, aka
Katsumi, whose primary product was locomotives of
outstanding quality and durability.
    As to Ertl, I don't think any of the HO
items they sold had any link to the AMT company.

        Fred Holladay

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of
jbkeik060811@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 3:26:17 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Details about item:
hudsonhussarii sent a message about HO Vintage KMT Passenger
and Baggage Cars set of 6 Unbuilt Unpainted w/lights
#182564865131

The AMT cars (American Model Toys, not the same company that
made the plastic model kits) and the KMT (Kusan) are
essentially one in the same. AMT produced the cars as HO
versions of their O gauge cars, sans a dome car. When Kusan
purchased AMT, they redesigned
the chassis and also changed the couplers from the fixed
knuckle on the AMT to an NMRA coupler. I have both the AMT
& KMT cars, other than the chassis changes, they're
identical.

Joe

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970 --
#yiv1939739970ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mkp #yiv1939739970hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mkp #yiv1939739970ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mkp .yiv1939739970ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mkp .yiv1939739970ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mkp .yiv1939739970ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1939739970ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1939739970ygrp-lc #yiv1939739970hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1939739970ygrp-lc .yiv1939739970ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970activity span
.yiv1939739970underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1939739970 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1939739970 dd.yiv1939739970last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1939739970 dd.yiv1939739970last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1939739970 dd.yiv1939739970last p
span.yiv1939739970yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv1939739970 div.yiv1939739970attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1939739970 div.yiv1939739970attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv1939739970 div.yiv1939739970file-title a, #yiv1939739970
div.yiv1939739970file-title a:active, #yiv1939739970
div.yiv1939739970file-title a:hover, #yiv1939739970
div.yiv1939739970file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1939739970 div.yiv1939739970photo-title a,
#yiv1939739970 div.yiv1939739970photo-title a:active,
#yiv1939739970 div.yiv1939739970photo-title a:hover,
#yiv1939739970 div.yiv1939739970photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1939739970 div#yiv1939739970ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv1939739970ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1939739970yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv1939739970 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv1939739970 .yiv1939739970replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv1939739970 input, #yiv1939739970 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1939739970
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1939739970logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-msg
p#yiv1939739970attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-reco
#yiv1939739970reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-sponsor #yiv1939739970ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-sponsor #yiv1939739970ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-sponsor #yiv1939739970ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv1939739970 #yiv1939739970ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv1939739970

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26315	From: supdiv20	Date: 5/22/2017
Subject: EXPRESS REEFER

I recently purchased a URTX express reefer Milwaukee Road, the seller listed it as being Varney the number is 48330. Can someone verify them maker? It is equipped with a nice set of sprung trucks, might these be Varney also? The cast under frame is loose and could it be replaced with truss rods? Also each end has a peculiar brake wheel. There are a few touch ups to make nice model. Most grateful for all help. Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26316	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/22/2017
Subject: Re: EXPRESS REEFER

Roger,

For starters, anytime a member is seeking the identity of a previously unknown freight car, the rest of us can only benefit immensely by knowing if this is a plastic, wood, wood & metal or (all) metal model, and then if it's a metal model, whether it's diecast or stamped metal (with the type of metal being used -- aluminum, brass or steel). The length should also be noted as some express reefers were just 40' as Kar Line produced. As in this case with an express reefer, the roof style would also help further in identifying it; round roof or peaked end. Your URTX MILW reefer however, is NOT a Varney product, neither in wood & cardstock, stamped metal nor plastic. They never produced a UTLX Milwaukee Road express reefer in any material. Varney produced two 50' wood-construction express reefers -- pre-War -- with both roof configurations, the XR-1 GARX 931 General American Refrigerator Express (w/rounded roof)and the XR-2 Great Northern 2031 (w/peaked roof). Their post-War 50' express reefers included the XR-1 GARX, the XR-2 Great Northern, the XR-3 Railway Express Agency 6349 and the XR-4 Atlantic Coast Line 3097.

What you have is a (50') Main Line Models product -- their catalog number XR-3. I don't recall Main Line Models kits coming with trucks, although this is off the top of my head without looking at any of my kits. I'm assuming that the previous owner/builder installed these sprung trucks obtained from another source, which could have been Varney, Athearn, Silver Streak, Ulrich or a number of other manufacturers' trucks. If the model's style lends to it, you should likely be able to convert it to having truss rods; queen posts were available at least from Kemtron, and possibly other detail manufacturers who escape me at this moment, but perhaps Red Ball - and/or Wabash Valley.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/22/2017 5:48:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I recently purchased a URTX express reefer Milwaukee Road, the seller listed it as being Varney the number is 48330. Can someone verify them maker? It is equipped with a nice set of sprung trucks, might these be Varney also? The cast under frame is loose and could it be replaced with truss rods? Also each end has a peculiar brake wheel. There are a few touch ups to make nice model. Most grateful for all help. Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26317	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 5/22/2017
Subject: Re: EXPRESS REEFER

The Mainline URTX Milwaukee express reefer was a favorite for many, many years until I learned……..the Milwaukee had no express reefers that remotely resembled this one in hardly any aspect, and certainly not in those colors and lettering. Then I learned that the Mainline kits were probably made to 4mm OO or even approaching S scale, and when really inspected, they were indeed seriously oversized for HO. They did not come with trucks, and most commonly, CV Commonwealth trucks served.

Now, that said, I loved building these cars, and still have a fair number of them- all shelf queens. The sides were nicely silk screened. I believe Ye Olde Huff n;Puff may still produce them.

One of the early molded plastic manufacturers, Varney?, simply copied Mainline’s fantasy Milwaukee reefer, compounding this spoofery. I see them at just about every model railroad flea market.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26318	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/23/2017
Subject: Re: EXPRESS REEFER

Hi Denny,

I pretty much agree with you on many aspects that you stated about Main Line Models, but I have my own impressions that I may add. I have built several and while lately I have gotten them pretty cheap at train shows, I will say that when I bought them new, they were NOT cheap. They were more expensive than Silver Streak kits and (in my opinion) inferior to Silver Streak kits. My first Main Line model was a GTW one and a half door outside braced boxcar. I started building it about 45 years ago and after gluing the sides, I realized the lettering was off register quite a bit. The lines for the bracing were way off and I found that if used the bracing would be horrible. I put that kit away. About two years ago, I had picked up a couple of express reefers and while the silk screening wasn't bad, it was a bit crude. The construction is very old school and not even up to Ambroid kit standards, nor Silver Streak, but they became ok cars to be used on the railroad once painted up and additional details added. At that time, while building the Express Reefers, I got out the GTW car and finished it. I ended up repainting and used some CV lettering, left over from an F & C kit. It looks pretty decent as a standoff model.

Anyway, I will probably avoid these and go with Ambroid kits for craftsman type kits as the Ambroid kits build up really nice.

BTW, I did buy a Huff N Puff Budweiser reefer and while building it, the lettering pretty much came completely off. This car was repainted and re-lettered as well. I am not a fan of Huff N Puff.

For someone want to build wood cars, I suggest start with Silver Streak and then go to Ambroid. I won't be looking at any more Main Line models myself.

Just my 2 cents. Regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Denny Anspach danspachmd@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:15 AM
To: HO Vintage
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: EXPRESS REEFER

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26319	From: roger_aultman	Date: 5/23/2017
Subject: Re: EXPRESS REEFER

--
Ray thanks much for the valued information, the car is of wood construction, nicely assembled and the kit probably did not come with trucks. Curiosity compels me to question the manufacturer of the trucks. There is a central bolster to which each side frame is attached with one vertical
screw there is also a sheet metal spacer between the side frames and the wheels. My guess this positions the wheels. The car has been test run on my layout and tracks OK. Roger

-- "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Roger,

For starters, anytime a member is seeking the identity of a previously
unknown freight car, the rest of us can only benefit immensely by knowing if
this is a plastic, wood, wood & metal or (all) metal model, and then if it's
a metal model, whether it's diecast or stamped metal (with the type of
metal being used -- aluminum, brass or steel). The length should also be
noted as some express reefers were just 40' as Kar Line produced. As in this
case with an express reefer, the roof style would also help further in
identifying it; round roof or peaked end. Your URTX MILW reefer however, is NOT
a Varney product, neither in wood & cardstock, stamped metal nor plastic.
They never produced a UTLX Milwaukee Road express reefer in any material.
Varney produced two 50' wood-construction express reefers -- pre-War --
with both roof configurations, the XR-1 GARX 931 General American
Refrigerator Express (w/rounded roof)and the XR-2 Great Northern 2031 (w/peaked roof).
Their post-War 50' express reefers included the XR-1 GARX, the XR-2 Great
Northern, the XR-3 Railway Express Agency 6349 and the XR-4 Atlantic Coast
Line 3097.

What you have is a (50') Main Line Models product -- their catalog number
XR-3. I don't recall Main Line Models kits coming with trucks, although
this is off the top of my head without looking at any of my kits. I'm
assuming that the previous owner/builder installed these sprung trucks obtained
from another source, which could have been Varney, Athearn, Silver Streak,
Ulrich or a number of other manufacturers' trucks. If the model's style
lends to it, you should likely be able to convert it to having truss rods;
queen posts were available at least from Kemtron, and possibly other detail
manufacturers who escape me at this moment, but perhaps Red Ball - and/or
Wabash Valley.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/22/2017 5:48:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I recently purchased a URTX express reefer Milwaukee Road, the seller
listed it as being Varney the number is 48330. Can someone verify them maker?
It is equipped with a nice set of sprung trucks, might these be Varney
also? The cast under frame is loose and could it be replaced with truss
rods? Also each end has a peculiar brake wheel. There are a few touch ups to
make nice model. Most grateful for all help. Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26320	From: roger_aultman	Date: 5/23/2017
Subject: H-O v 00

Attachments :

eb 002.JPG

Recent discussion of Mainline Models scale suggested they may have been built to 00. Having a 00 Scalecraft reefer a picture was taken sitting next to the discussed Mainline Model. Apologies for the quality of the picture but I think it shows the Mainline to be built to H-0. I met a modeler who had assembled a number of Huff n Puff kits, some of those appeared oversize.
Roger Aultman

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26321	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/23/2017
Subject: Re: EXPRESS REEFER

Roger,

Glad you found the info valuable, despite it not being a Varney car. Then too, at least you know it's not a Varney model. As you saw in my reply, other info can always be of help, as I suggested . . . and please know these were just that; suggestions. Often the car number is a major factor in finding who the manufacturer was, even though it all takes a bit of searching to come up with the manufacturer, and even though the car number may not always be the deciding factor -- but for the most part, each manufacturer used his own number series quite often coinciding with what the prototype road used. The number "48303" was specific for Main Line Models' MILW URTX reefer so I figured your model most likely was of wood construction since no other manufacturer I could find used this number. One car number in particular comes to mind which was used by every model manufacturer offering a certain billboard reefer, and that is "1001" for the Gerbers reefer. Could it be that the Gerbers Baby Foods Co. had only one (prototype) refrigerated railway car?

Hard to say who made the trucks. While there were some variations in truck construction, most seemed to have used one center bolster with one vertical screw. The sheet metal spacers don't ring a bell for me, but maybe another member might recall these spacers. From your description, it sounds like metal spacers (washers?) may have been used to take up some extra space between the wheels and the sideframes for the purpose of reducing side-to-side wandering when sideframes are spaced too far apart. This would help in transitioning turnouts better too.

Almost forgot, many H0 manufacturers' productions of roadnames and numbers have been put in the files many years ago. I don't remember if Main Line Models was put there, but it's a good place to start for any "unidentified" model. Varney had regular 40' Milwaukee Road URTX reefers (wood & cardstock -- not stamped steel), both pre-War (#'s 81307 and 88107)and post-War (# 88107).

Ray

In a message dated 5/23/2017 4:48:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

--
Ray thanks much for the valued information, the car is of wood construction, nicely assembled and the kit probably did not come with trucks. Curiosity compels me to question the manufacturer of the trucks. There is a central bolster to which each side frame is attached with one vertical
screw there is also a sheet metal spacer between the side frames and the wheels. My guess this positions the wheels. The car has been test run on my layout and tracks OK. Roger

-- "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Roger,

For starters, anytime a member is seeking the identity of a previously
unknown freight car, the rest of us can only benefit immensely by knowing if
this is a plastic, wood, wood & metal or (all) metal model, and then if it's
a metal model, whether it's diecast or stamped metal (with the type of
metal being used -- aluminum, brass or steel). The length should also be
noted as some express reefers were just 40' as Kar Line produced. As in this
case with an express reefer, the roof style would also help further in
identifying it; round roof or peaked end. Your URTX MILW reefer however, is NOT
a Varney product, neither in wood & cardstock, stamped metal nor plastic.
They never produced a UTLX Milwaukee Road express reefer in any material.
Varney produced two 50' wood-construction express reefers -- pre-War --
with both roof configurations, the XR-1 GARX 931 General American
Refrigerator Express (w/rounded roof)and the XR-2 Great Northern 2031 (w/peaked roof).
Their post-War 50' express reefers included the XR-1 GARX, the XR-2 Great
Northern, the XR-3 Railway Express Agency 6349 and the XR-4 Atlantic Coast
Line 3097.

What you have is a (50') Main Line Models product -- their catalog number
XR-3. I don't recall Main Line Models kits coming with trucks, although
this is off the top of my head without looking at any of my kits. I'm
assuming that the previous owner/builder installed these sprung trucks obtained
from another source, which could have been Varney, Athearn, Silver Streak,
Ulrich or a number of other manufacturers' trucks. If the model's style
lends to it, you should likely be able to convert it to having truss rods;
queen posts were available at least from Kemtron, and possibly other detail
manufacturers who escape me at this moment, but perhaps Red Ball - and/or
Wabash Valley.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/22/2017 5:48:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I recently purchased a URTX express reefer Milwaukee Road, the seller
listed it as being Varney the number is 48330. Can someone verify them maker?
It is equipped with a nice set of sprung trucks, might these be Varney
also? The cast under frame is loose and could it be replaced with truss
rods? Also each end has a peculiar brake wheel. There are a few touch ups to
make nice model. Most grateful for all help. Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26322	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/23/2017
Subject: Re: H-O v 00 [1 Attachment]

Roger,

Perhaps Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff also produced 00 models of some of those manufacturers they bought out. As for Main Line Models, I just now put a scale H0 ruler up to one of my 40' reefers and to a 50' express reefer and they both measure right on -- as kits, still in their Main Line Models boxes! It would appear to be a mistake to describe Main Line Models as "00."

Ray Wetze

In a message dated 5/23/2017 5:32:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Recent discussion of Mainline Models scale suggested they may have been built to 00. Having a 00 Scalecraft reefer a picture was taken sitting next to the discussed Mainline Model. Apologies for the quality of the picture but I think it shows the Mainline to be built to H-0. I met a modeler who had assembled a number of Huff n Puff kits, some of those appeared oversize.
Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26323	From: dwaite2000	Date: 5/24/2017
Subject: EXPRESS REEFER

I've been collecting Main Line express reefers for a number of years
and I think I have at least one of each road name and number. Can't be
positive as some of them were produced with more than one road number and
different arrangements of lettering (Hood's at least). I've used
weathered (flat black) painted MDC express reefer trucks and they look
about right.

Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26324	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/24/2017
Subject: Re: EXPRESS REEFER

Attachments :

REAExpress7472.jpg

I didn't know MDC had express reefer trucks. I used the MDC 6 ft passenger trucks. Here is a photo of one of mine, numbered 7472. The numbers aren't very clear.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of acace@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:17 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] EXPRESS REEFER

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26325	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/24/2017
Subject: Re: EXPRESS REEFER

For the Main Line Models H.R. Hoods & Son Express Milk reefer, I have GRAX 809 & 8057 in Kit # XR-8 and 981674 in kit # XR-17.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/24/2017 9:19:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been collecting Main Line express reefers for a number of years
and I think I have at least one of each road name and number. Can't be
positive as some of them were produced with more than one road number and
different arrangements of lettering (Hood's at least). I've used
weathered (flat black) painted MDC express reefer trucks and they look
about right.

Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26326	From: wmewright	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

I would like help in identifying this car. It is a Menasha Wooden Ware Company boxcar #214.An internet search produced some eBay nhits identifying the car as a Walthers kit of a Mainline kit I have uploaded photos to Flickr. .https://www.flickr.com/photos/wrightbirder/albums/72157681926999824.

Looking at the underframe, I think it is probably Walthers. The car is so tall, I thought that it must be oversize for HO, but I don't think so. It has dummy couplers, so I haven't tried operating with it. It is also an unweighted wood car and with the height, I didn't think it would run well. But I had an open house yesterday for the LSR convention and ran it. No problems. So now it will get Kadee couplers and go into the operating lineup. It weights 2.6 oz, 2 ounce under NMRA recommended weight for a 51 ft car.

Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26327	From: trainliker	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wooden Ware boxcar 214

Attachments :

4039CD938132435F95E6FA646E85B9D9.png

This has that name and number as a Walthers kit from 1943:

http://www.oldmodelkits.com/index.php?detail=22139

The February, 1940 Model Railroader has one as several cars shown on the cover. In the “On the Cover” description on page 64 (remember, back then they page numbered starting in January through December) it says:

“…Unusual is the model of the Menasha Woodenware car built by Chuck Conrad, 32 Cherry St. These are probably the highest boxcars ever built and a few of them can still be seen…”

February 1942 Walthers ad inside front cover has it. O gauge only at that time.

August 1942, page 389 has a Polk’s ad for one in HO. Says “Built-up body. Incl. scribed doors, cut-to-size wood center sill, walk ribs, sills, center cross bearers, upper door slide.”

March 1948 has Walthers ad, page 188, mentions it in O and HO (no photo). Again in November, 1948.

July, 1955, page 12 has Mainline Models HO version, no photo. Says Height is 12’ 9”. Again in August, 1955, page 13 with photo. And then in maybe a half dozen issues until what seems to be the last such Mailine ad with it in December, 1957.

July 1972, page 8, Walthers ad with photo but O scale only.

October, 1975, page 35, Mainline ad, but for O scale version

There are other ads from Walthers for the O scale version, and then eventually N scale Micro Trains and LGB but I think they letter regular cars and didn’t make extra height versions.

There was a construction article and various comments about contest entries for this car. It seemed to have a lot of interest for a lot of years.

Also, apparently there was a Magnuson model of the Menasha Woodenware factory.

Finally, I was SURE I had just seen an ad with a photo the last day or two. I scoured the new MR and RMC to no avail. Then I remembered I was flipping through an old Model Railroader while being a docent at the local railroad museum when we had a dry spell of visitors. It was the July, 1942 issue!

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: texaskingbird@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 2:18 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26328	From: trainliker	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wooden Ware boxcar 214 [1 Attachment]

Attachments :

772EB7170FE14CA49C1DA005E81B6284.png

Correction. For the August, 1942 MR Polk’s ad, I believe it is O, not HO.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 3:40 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Menasha Wooden Ware boxcar 214 [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

This has that name and number as a Walthers kit from 1943:

http://www.oldmodelkits.com/index.php?detail=22139

“…Unusual is the model of the Menasha Woodenware car built by Chuck Conrad, 32 Cherry St. These are probably the highest boxcars ever built and a few of them can still be seen…”

February 1942 Walthers ad inside front cover has it. O gauge only at that time.

August 1942, page 389 has a Polk’s ad for one in HO. Says “Built-up body. Incl. scribed doors, cut-to-size wood center sill, walk ribs, sills, center cross bearers, upper door slide.”

March 1948 has Walthers ad, page 188, mentions it in O and HO (no photo). Again in November, 1948.

July 1972, page 8, Walthers ad with photo but O scale only.

October, 1975, page 35, Mainline ad, but for O scale version

There are other ads from Walthers for the O scale version, and then eventually N scale Micro Trains and LGB but I think they letter regular cars and didn’t make extra height versions.

There was a construction article and various comments about contest entries for this car. It seemed to have a lot of interest for a lot of years.

Also, apparently there was a Magnuson model of the Menasha Woodenware factory.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: texaskingbird@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 2:18 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26329	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Bill,

The first thing that comes up after clicking on your flickr link is a button to join Flicka. Looks like I'm unable to view your photos unless I join Flicka, which I prefer not to do and which I never planned on doing. It would be simpler if you had sent these photos without having to go through (& join) Flicka as I'm not sure why you'd expect us to. Regardless of not being able to view the photos (unless I joined the site), Main Line Models (not to be confused with Mainline RR Models -- a Varney War-time subsidy) did in fact produce a green 51' Menasha Wooden Ware box car #214 as their Kit # BC-1. It is not and never was a Walthers product in the context that Walthers ever manufactured it in association with Main Line Models, but they (Walthers) did carry Main Line Models in their catalogs from the early 1960's through the early 1970's, as they did other manufacturers' product lines. Walthers 1973 catalog carried the last of them, the 50' Main Line Models express reefers. It's possible that Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff continued Main Line Models, but as this manufacturer (Y.O.H.'N.P.) isn't considered "vintage," I never bought any of their kits even though they are craftsman kits. Nothing in any literature they've sent me indicates they reproduced Main Line Models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/11/2017 5:18:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I would like help in identifying this car. It is a Menasha Wooden Ware Company boxcar #214.An internet search produced some eBay nhits identifying the car as a Walthers kit of a Mainline kit I have uploaded photos to Flickr. .https://www.flickr.com/photos/wrightbirder/albums/72157681926999824.

Looking at the underframe, I think it is probably Walthers. The car is so tall, I thought that it must be oversize for HO, but I don't think so. It has dummy couplers, so I haven't tried operating with it. It is also an unweighted wood car and with the height, I didn't think it would run well. But I had an open house yesterday for the LSR convention and ran it. No problems. So now it will get Kadee couplers and go into the operating lineup. It weights 2.6 oz, 2 ounce under NMRA recommended weight for a 51 ft car.

Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26330	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wooden Ware boxcar 214 [1 Attachment]

On this car's height, while we know it's considerably higher than the average box cars of 40' and 50', I'm still not sure how high they actually are in comparison. On the Menasha Wooden Ware car though, while the July, 1955 MR ad (Page 12) says the height is 12' 9', for the Menasha Woodenware (one word, per Walthers) box car, the Walthers 1946 H0 Gauge - 0 Gauge catalog states; "51 ft. long, 11 ft. high, but standard width." Obviously someone is wrong -- either MR magazine or Walthers -- as there's a 1 1/2 ' difference here. BTW, Walthers offered it in 1946, but again, in 0 scale only.

However, and while this had nothing to do with Main Line Models, Walthers did offer the 51' Menasha Wooden Ware (two words here, per Walthers) car in their all-H0 Gauge 1949 catalog in H0 scale as their Catalog # 6816. Again, it's described in this catalog as "51' long, 11 feet high, but standard width, this box car is in a class by itself." Kit - $3.20. Finished - $14.00. By this, it may have been possible that it was produced in H0 scale in 1948 or perhaps maybe even in 1947 but I don't have those catalogs. Our member W.Jay.W. has a good collection of early Walthers catalogs and may have this information if he sees this thread. My pre-War Walthers catalogs, both H0 scale and H0 - 0 scale have this car being offered only in 0 scale. I don't think this is what Bill has in mind though, anyway, since he's referring to a Main Line Models' car.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/11/2017 6:40:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This has that name and number as a Walthers kit from 1943:

http://www.oldmodelkits.com/index.php?detail=22139

The February, 1940 Model Railroader has one as several cars shown on the cover. In the “On the Cover” description on page 64 (remember, back then they page numbered starting in January through December) it says:

“…Unusual is the model of the Menasha Woodenware car built by Chuck Conrad, 32 Cherry St. These are probably the highest boxcars ever built and a few of them can still be seen…”

February 1942 Walthers ad inside front cover has it. O gauge only at that time.

August 1942, page 389 has a Polk’s ad for one in HO. Says “Built-up body. Incl. scribed doors, cut-to-size wood center sill, walk ribs, sills, center cross bearers, upper door slide.”

March 1948 has Walthers ad, page 188, mentions it in O and HO (no photo). Again in November, 1948.

July, 1955, page 12 has Mainline Models HO version, no photo. Says Height is 12’ 9”. Again in August, 1955, page 13 with photo. And then in maybe a half dozen issues until what seems to be the last such Mailine ad with it in December, 1957.

July 1972, page 8, Walthers ad with photo but O scale only.

October, 1975, page 35, Mainline ad, but for O scale version

There are other ads from Walthers for the O scale version, and then eventually N scale Micro Trains and LGB but I think they letter regular cars and didn’t make extra height versions.

There was a construction article and various comments about contest entries for this car. It seemed to have a lot of interest for a lot of years.

Also, apparently there was a Magnuson model of the Menasha Woodenware factory.

Finally, I was SURE I had just seen an ad with a photo the last day or two. I scoured the new MR and RMC to no avail. Then I remembered I was flipping through an old Model Railroader while being a docent at the local railroad museum when we had a dry spell of visitors. It was the July, 1942 issue!

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: texaskingbird@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 2:18 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

I would like help in identifying this car. It is a Menasha Wooden Ware Company boxcar #214.An internet search produced some eBay nhits identifying the car as a Walthers kit of a Mainline kit I have uploaded photos to Flickr. .https://www.flickr.com/photos/wrightbirder/albums/72157681926999824.

Looking at the underframe, I think it is probably Walthers. The car is so tall, I thought that it must be oversize for HO, but I don't think so. It has dummy couplers, so I haven't tried operating with it. It is also an unweighted wood car and with the height, I didn't think it would run well. But I had an open house yesterday for the LSR convention and ran it. No problems. So now it will get Kadee couplers and go into the operating lineup. It weights 2.6 oz, 2 ounce under NMRA recommended weight for a 51 ft car.

Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26331	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wooden Ware boxcar 214 [1 Attachment]

On this car's height, while we know it's considerably higher than the average box cars of 40' and 50', I'm still not sure how high they actually are in comparison. On the Menasha Wooden Ware car though, while the July, 1955 MR ad (Page 12) says the height is 12' 9', for the Menasha Woodenware (one word, per Walthers) box car, the Walthers 1946 H0 Gauge - 0 Gauge catalog states; "51 ft. long, 11 ft. high, but standard width." Obviously someone is wrong -- either MR magazine or Walthers -- as there's a 1 1/2 ' difference here. BTW, Walthers offered it in 1946, but again, in 0 scale only.

However, and while this had nothing to do with Main Line Models, Walthers did offer the 51' Menasha Wooden Ware (two words here, per Walthers) car in their all-H0 Gauge 1949 catalog in H0 scale as their Catalog # 6816. Again, it's described in this catalog as "51' long, 11 feet high, but standard width, this box car is in a class by itself." Kit - $3.20. Finished - $14.00. By this, it may have been possible that it was produced in H0 scale in 1948 or perhaps maybe even in 1947 but I don't have those catalogs. Our member W.Jay.W. has a good collection of early Walthers catalogs and may have this information if he sees this thread. My pre-War Walthers catalogs, both H0 scale and H0 - 0 scale have this car being offered only in 0 scale. I don't think this is what Bill has in mind though, anyway, since he's referring to a Main Line Models' car.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/11/2017 6:40:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This has that name and number as a Walthers kit from 1943:

http://www.oldmodelkits.com/index.php?detail=22139

The February, 1940 Model Railroader has one as several cars shown on the cover. In the “On the Cover” description on page 64 (remember, back then they page numbered starting in January through December) it says:

“…Unusual is the model of the Menasha Woodenware car built by Chuck Conrad, 32 Cherry St. These are probably the highest boxcars ever built and a few of them can still be seen…”

February 1942 Walthers ad inside front cover has it. O gauge only at that time.

August 1942, page 389 has a Polk’s ad for one in HO. Says “Built-up body. Incl. scribed doors, cut-to-size wood center sill, walk ribs, sills, center cross bearers, upper door slide.”

March 1948 has Walthers ad, page 188, mentions it in O and HO (no photo). Again in November, 1948.

July, 1955, page 12 has Mainline Models HO version, no photo. Says Height is 12’ 9”. Again in August, 1955, page 13 with photo. And then in maybe a half dozen issues until what seems to be the last such Mailine ad with it in December, 1957.

July 1972, page 8, Walthers ad with photo but O scale only.

October, 1975, page 35, Mainline ad, but for O scale version

There are other ads from Walthers for the O scale version, and then eventually N scale Micro Trains and LGB but I think they letter regular cars and didn’t make extra height versions.

There was a construction article and various comments about contest entries for this car. It seemed to have a lot of interest for a lot of years.

Also, apparently there was a Magnuson model of the Menasha Woodenware factory.

Finally, I was SURE I had just seen an ad with a photo the last day or two. I scoured the new MR and RMC to no avail. Then I remembered I was flipping through an old Model Railroader while being a docent at the local railroad museum when we had a dry spell of visitors. It was the July, 1942 issue!

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: texaskingbird@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 2:18 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

I would like help in identifying this car. It is a Menasha Wooden Ware Company boxcar #214.An internet search produced some eBay nhits identifying the car as a Walthers kit of a Mainline kit I have uploaded photos to Flickr. .https://www.flickr.com/photos/wrightbirder/albums/72157681926999824.

Looking at the underframe, I think it is probably Walthers. The car is so tall, I thought that it must be oversize for HO, but I don't think so. It has dummy couplers, so I haven't tried operating with it. It is also an unweighted wood car and with the height, I didn't think it would run well. But I had an open house yesterday for the LSR convention and ran it. No problems. So now it will get Kadee couplers and go into the operating lineup. It weights 2.6 oz, 2 ounce under NMRA recommended weight for a 51 ft car.

Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26332	From: luvprr2003	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

All,

Owned an HO Manasha Wooden Ware car for a while, but I think I finally sold it as the bulkiness (not just the height) annoyed me no end. Nevertheless It was a very nice wooden piece, and I know I did keep it for some time because it was a perfect match for a Winton Berkshire. As far as I am concerned both that so-called Berkshire and the car in question appeared very much to me as being vintage American OO scale. I know the loco was/is definitely larger than HO even though it ran (and still does) great on HO track. In any case the car is an unusual piece.

Art Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26333	From: rhbale8	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

The 1944 edition of the Model Railroader Cyclopedia includes drawings for the Menasha Woodenware boxcar. Key dimensions are 51-ft 3-in long over the end sills, 9-ft 9-in wide, and 12-ft 9-in tall measured from the bottom of the sill to the top of the funning board. That puts it at about 15-inches taller than a USRA SS car of the same period.

Richard Bale

In a message dated 6/11/2017 2:18:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I would like help in identifying this car. It is a Menasha Wooden Ware Company boxcar #214.An internet search produced some eBay nhits identifying the car as a Walthers kit of a Mainline kit I have uploaded photos to Flickr. .https://www.flickr.com/photos/wrightbirder/albums/72157681926999824.

Looking at the underframe, I think it is probably Walthers. The car is so tall, I thought that it must be oversize for HO, but I don't think so. It has dummy couplers, so I haven't tried operating with it. It is also an unweighted wood car and with the height, I didn't think it would run well. But I had an open house yesterday for the LSR convention and ran it. No problems. So now it will get Kadee couplers and go into the operating lineup. It weights 2.6 oz, 2 ounce under NMRA recommended weight for a 51 ft car.

Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26334	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Try this link for a prototype photo.

Note that the photo can be enlarged by choosing options in the upper left corner.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Menasha_Wooden_Ware_Company_boxcar_242_-_Replica_boxcar.jpg

John Hagen

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (8)

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

http://menashacorporation.com/utility/Corporate-Profile/History-Timeline/1890-1939

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26335	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Another link to the Menasha Corp. website.

Use the arrows at the edges of the photo to find the year 1905. There it states that Menasha bought oversize circus box cars. The photo, although very much cropped does show the car as being rather taller than the box car immediately behind it.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 8:59 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Try this link for a prototype photo.

Note that the photo can be enlarged by choosing options in the upper left corner.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Menasha_Wooden_Ware_Company_boxcar_242_-_Replica_boxcar.jpg

John Hagen

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (8)

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVjyF9T1ZDnYA_YUnnIlQ?p=menasha+wooden+ware+box+car&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&fr2=piv-web&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001#id=7&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fc1.staticflickr.com%2F3%2F2798%2F4268234188_fa1d02471c_z.jpg%3Fzz%3D1&action=click

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26336	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Found the original photo here.

It gives a very good comparison to a standard size box car.

or use

https://tinyurl.com/yd77ghjg

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 9:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Another link to the Menasha Corp. website.

http://menashacorporation.com/utility/Corporate-Profile/History-Timeline/1890-1939

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26337	From: wmewright	Date: 6/11/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Attachments :

MWW214_under.jpg

MWW214.jpg

Thank you all for your excellent responses. Sorry about the difficulty with the link. I took a second look and found the attachment button, so I have attached the two photos to this email.I measured the height of my car from the sill to the top of the roof walk. That came to 13 feet as the kit builder built it.
Bill Wright

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26338	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/12/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

John,

In doing a search on my own, I also came up with very similar results as you have here. Scrolling down to the third row of images in your link and checking out the prototype photo on the extreme left, it shows a group of four workers on the ground while another worker is shown on the box car's ladder -- looks like he's on the first rung above the stirrup. It can be seen that the side of this car above this guy on the ladder is more than this guy's height standing against the lower portion of this car, although it's hard to say exactly how tall he is. Still, it's easy to see how high these Menasha Wooden Ware cars were.

In searching for dimensions of a standard AAR box car of the 1930's, it came up as being 11' high in 1937. More-standardized plans for 40' AAR box cars were drawn up in 1941, although not used until 1944. These plans called for these AAR house cars being 41' 10" long over strikers, 9' 9" wide over side sills and 11' 5" high over floor stringer. Longer (50' and even 60') AAR box cars held the same width and height.

Coming across what appeared to be an "official" Menasha Wooden Ware site, it was stated that these cars were numbered from 2 through 270, inclusive, in even numbers. Looking to mean that there were 135 cars. I have seen some of the latest H0 manufacturers producing these cars being numbered in odd car numbers though, but perhaps they took "modelers' license" in doing so, not researching what the prototype cars were numbered. I believe Intermountain was one of these manufacturers.

I forgot to mention that I have the Main Line Models BC-1 Menasha Wooden Ware kit (numbered as # 214) and so can verify its manufacturer, although I did state earlier that this was the manufacturer of this car. Again, Dave Spanagel includes this sole number (214) for Menasha Wooden Ware in his Main Line Models car listing for the HO Scale Collectors & History SIG Reporting Mark publication.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/11/2017 10:24:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Found the original photo here.

It gives a very good comparison to a standard size box car.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVjyF9T1ZDnYA_YUnnIlQ?p=menasha+wooden+ware+box+car&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&fr2=piv-web&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001#id=7&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fc1.staticflickr.com%2F3%2F2798%2F4268234188_fa1d02471c_z.jpg%3Fzz%3D1&action=click

or use

https://tinyurl.com/yd77ghjg

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 9:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

[Unable to display image]

Another link to the Menasha Corp. website.

http://menashacorporation.com/utility/Corporate-Profile/History-Timeline/1890-1939

Use the arrows at the edges of the photo to find the year 1905. There it states that Menasha bought oversize circus box cars. The photo, although very much cropped does show the car as being rather taller than the box car immediately behind it.

John Hagen

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26339	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 6/12/2017
Subject: Body bolster for Mantua HO aluminum passenger passenger cars

I seem to have "lost" one of the 2 body bolsters from a Mantua extruded aluminum 74' passenger cars (the older cars, lit by only one light bulb in a plastic diffuser, not the 2 small bulbs strapped to the floor). Does anyone have such a body bolster to spare? Contact me off list.

Thanks,
Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26340	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/12/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Attachments :

MWW 1926 ORER.JPG

MWW 1926 ORER High.jpg

I’ve attached two snippet’s from the 1926 ORER.

One shows the section on the Menasha Wooden Ware boxcars. It is in the form of a paragraph with the cars data arranged by numbers. Each number (or series of numbers) is like a sentence. They are not each on their own line of text. The data includes inside dimensions and capacities in weight and cubic feet. Only even numbers were used.

The first is titled “MWW 1926 ORER” and the second is “MWW 1926 ORER High.” The difference is the “High” one only shows the cars that were a minimum of 9’10” high. The other shows all box cars some of which were 8’8” or 9’3” tall. The reason I chose the 9’10” as my break point is car #214 is 9’10” tall. They also had cars 10” tall and 11’4” tall. Remember all dimensions given were inside measurements.

I attempted to look in a later ORER hoping that a later version may include exterior dimensions. However the next one I have is from 1938. Menasha Wooden Ware does not show up in the 1938 ORER.

Unfortunately, #162, the car in the photo does not show up in the list. Neither do any of the numbers that would closely surround that #162 appear. All numbers from 110 to 210 are missing. As we have photographic proof that car #162 existed at some point the probable reason is a block of cars (apparently 50) had been removed from service prior to 1926.

Now none of this has anything what-so-ever to do with identifying who made and/or sold the kit of #214 but it makes for an interesting subject. At least I think.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 9:35 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

John,

Ray Wetzel

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26341	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/12/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214 [2 Attachments]

Any information about these Menasha Wooden Ware cars that can be made known is interesting as they're unique cars. The dimensions explained about the prototype cars, especially their unusual height, tell us that the H0 models of them that were produced are certainly not any other scale but H0; they are not 00 nor are they too large to be consider H0 as this is their actual scale.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/12/2017 7:19:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I’ve attached two snippet’s from the 1926 ORER.

One shows the section on the Menasha Wooden Ware boxcars. It is in the form of a paragraph with the cars data arranged by numbers. Each number (or series of numbers) is like a sentence. They are not each on their own line of text. The data includes inside dimensions and capacities in weight and cubic feet. Only even numbers were used.

The first is titled “MWW 1926 ORER” and the second is “MWW 1926 ORER High.” The difference is the “High” one only shows the cars that were a minimum of 9’10” high. The other shows all box cars some of which were 8’8” or 9’3” tall. The reason I chose the 9’10” as my break point is car #214 is 9’10” tall. They also had cars 10” tall and 11’4” tall. Remember all dimensions given were inside measurements.

I attempted to look in a later ORER hoping that a later version may include exterior dimensions. However the next one I have is from 1938. Menasha Wooden Ware does not show up in the 1938 ORER.

Unfortunately, #162, the car in the photo does not show up in the list. Neither do any of the numbers that would closely surround that #162 appear. All numbers from 110 to 210 are missing. As we have photographic proof that car #162 existed at some point the probable reason is a block of cars (apparently 50) had been removed from service prior to 1926.

Now none of this has anything what-so-ever to do with identifying who made and/or sold the kit of #214 but it makes for an interesting subject. At least I think.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 9:35 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

John,

In doing a search on my own, I also came up with very similar results as you have here. Scrolling down to the third row of images in your link and checking out the prototype photo on the extreme left, it shows a group of four workers on the ground while another worker is shown on the box car's ladder -- looks like he's on the first rung above the stirrup. It can be seen that the side of this car above this guy on the ladder is more than this guy's height standing against the lower portion of this car, although it's hard to say exactly how tall he is. Still, it's easy to see how high these Menasha Wooden Ware cars were.

In searching for dimensions of a standard AAR box car of the 1930's, it came up as being 11' high in 1937. More-standardized plans for 40' AAR box cars were drawn up in 1941, although not used until 1944. These plans called for these AAR house cars being 41' 10" long over strikers, 9' 9" wide over side sills and 11' 5" high over floor stringer. Longer (50' and even 60') AAR box cars held the same width and height.

Coming across what appeared to be an "official" Menasha Wooden Ware site, it was stated that these cars were numbered from 2 through 270, inclusive, in even numbers. Looking to mean that there were 135 cars. I have seen some of the latest H0 manufacturers producing these cars being numbered in odd car numbers though, but perhaps they took "modelers' license" in doing so, not researching what the prototype cars were numbered. I believe Intermountain was one of these manufacturers.

I forgot to mention that I have the Main Line Models BC-1 Menasha Wooden Ware kit (numbered as # 214) and so can verify its manufacturer, although I did state earlier that this was the manufacturer of this car. Again, Dave Spanagel includes this sole number (214) for Menasha Wooden Ware in his Main Line Models car listing for the HO Scale Collectors & History SIG Reporting Mark publication.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26342	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 6/13/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

> Unfortunately, #162, the car in the photo does not show up in the list. Neither do any of the numbers that would closely surround that #162 appear. All numbers from 110 to 210 are missing. As we have photographic proof that car #162 existed at some point the probable reason is a block of cars (apparently 50) had been removed from service prior to 1926.

#162 and others from 100 thru 218 (even) (some missing) were listed in
the August 1919 ORER. interior 50'6", 8'7", 11'4", 60000 cpy.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26343	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/13/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Per the Menasha Corp. website those circus sized were acquired beginning in 1905. Now it’s anyone’s guess if they used all the (even) numbers in a given sequence but that is generally how cars were/are purchased.

And, once put in service, cars start leaving the roster for a variety of reasons, including crashes which can cause removal of numbers in a spotty fashion. That could explain the missing numbers in the 1919 ORER.

Get enough ORER’s and one can trace the history of specific freight cars by railroads and private owners. It is likely that at one point all the remaining cars in the 110 – 210 range had disappeared enmasse. Maybe to another rail car user looking for oversize box cars or maybe even for scrap. Either way, some of the cars must have become surplus to their needs before 1926. Then sometime between 1926 and 1938 Menasha Wooden Ware just disappeared as a private car owner.

I keep an eye open for reasonable priced ORER’s. I have several on a cd and also found the NMRA reprint of the 1943 ORER and a decent 1969 on eBay at very reasonable prices. Besides using them for looking up histories of cars in response to posting like this I also use them for getting data for decals sets I’m working on.

Now, with an interior height of 11’4”, I am curious as to the exterior and maximum exterior heights. Had to be a tall one.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 7:02 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

> Unfortunately, #162, the car in the photo does not show up in the list. Neither do any of the numbers that would closely surround that #162 appear. All numbers from 110 to 210 are missing. As we have photographic proof that car #162 existed at some point the probable reason is a block of cars (apparently 50) had been removed from service prior to 1926.

#162 and others from 100 thru 218 (even) (some missing) were listed in
the August 1919 ORER. interior 50'6", 8'7", 11'4", 60000 cpy.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26344	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 6/13/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

I have a Main Line HO #214 Menasha Woodware car beautifully built and neatly detailed and finished by the late great modeler Fred Cribbins (1915-1964). It measures OA 51/ 6” long over ensiles, 16’3” H running board to railhead, and 10’3” W OA. The length is correct, and It is not as egregiously wide as other Main Line models, but…. I too submit that it is oversized, even as a “high” car. In OO scale (4 mm/ft.) the OA height of the car 13’ 4”, within striking distance of the reported 12’9” of the prototype.

Although, I have retired most of my Main Line cars because of their being obviously oversized, I think that this one I will definitely keep.

I was surprised by the comment feeling that the Winton 2-8-4 being oversized, my Winton MaRa 2-6-6-6 being clearly and definitely right to HO scale. aI have had up to three other earlier Winton 2-6-6-6s on the layout, they did not seem oversized to me (I am notoriously finicky about scale and proportionality- for good or bad). I have never seen, much less run an actual functioning Winton 2-8-4…..a rare bird, indeed.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26345	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/14/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

In a message dated 6/13/2017 9:40:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I have a Main Line HO #214 Menasha Woodware car beautifully built and neatly detailed and finished by the late great modeler Fred Cribbins (1915-1964). It measures OA 51/ 6” long over ensiles, 16’3” H running board to railhead, and 10’3” W OA. The length is correct, and It is not as egregiously wide as other Main Line models, but…. I too submit that it is oversized, even as a “high” car. In OO scale (4 mm/ft.) the OA height of the car 13’ 4”, within striking distance of the reported 12’9” of the prototype.

Although, I have retired most of my Main Line cars because of their being obviously oversized, I think that this one I will definitely keep.

I was surprised by the comment feeling that the Winton 2-8-4 being oversized, my Winton MaRa 2-6-6-6 being clearly and definitely right to HO scale. aI have had up to three other earlier Winton 2-6-6-6s on the layout, they did not seem oversized to me (I am notoriously finicky about scale and proportionality- for good or bad). I have never seen, much less run an actual functioning Winton 2-8-4…..a rare bird, indeed.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26346	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/14/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

While I'm not at all sure what "OA" actually means, I would like to point out the height measurements given by both Bill and John in this latest series of posts. Bill stated that his car is 13' high from "sill to the top of the roof walk." John found these cars to be 11' 4" high as the inside measurement. The measurement I gave in response to one of John's posts was 11' 5" high over floor stringer. No measurements given by anyone refer to the height being measured from the railhead, which would easily add at least 33" as the diameter of the truck wheels, plus truck side frame configuration and bolster clearance. The 16' 3" measurement taken from the railhead appears to be misleading and irrelevant as not remaining in comparison to actual car measurements. It is seen though, by another of John's posts, that heights (interior) of these cars varied, when other inside heights were given as 9' 3", 9' 10", and 10'.

Agreed, my original (casting-less) Winton Allegheny and my Winton MaRa Allegheny are both to scale. While my Winton Berkshire kit is another of the original casting-less productions and does not appear to have followed any particular prototype, the possibility remains that it may be oversize for H0. Not to say it is, I will dig it out as soon as I can to check out its dimensions. No easy chore in itself < g > as it's buried under numerous other (Shrader, Lindsay, Varney, etc.) loco kits, but I will try to get it out today to bring an answer to this question. Then too, I'm not sure if there was a MaRa 2-8-4, possibly even of a different style. The original Winton Berkshire has a vestibule cab.

Ray Wetzel .

In a message dated 6/13/2017 9:40:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26347	From: anypaddler	Date: 6/14/2017
Subject: ORER accuracy (was Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214)

John Hagen wrote:

< Get enough ORER’s and one can trace the history of specific freight cars by railroads and private owners.

------------------------------

That's true...up to a point. It would depend on how well the individual car owners sent in updates to the publisher. I think such updates were more likely to be made when the railroads had large rosters of clerks, but that accuracy suffered as the number of clerks was reduced, especially in the 1960's and 70's. Just take a look at the New York Central's Michigan Central Terminal Building in Detroit; it was once full of clerks, but now it's an empty hulk.

When I took the position of Manager-Freight Car Service for the DHDO (D&H in bankruptcy) in 1988 our ORER listing was just shy of 4,000 cars; when I turned record keeping over to the CP three years later the count was only about 1,500. The worst example of bad record keeping was the case of the 200 DHNY boxcars that were "rebuilt" from 29000-series DH-marked cars in 1982; the converted 29000's were still shown in the ORER. The cars were chosen at random, and were not renumbered in sequence. While the renumberings were recorded in company documents, there had been no submission to the ORER until I did it.

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26348	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/14/2017
Subject: Re: Menasha Wood Ware boxcar 214

Having pulled out my Winton MaRa Allegheny kit, my Winton Berkshire kit and a Varney Berkshire kit to get measurements for comparison, I didn't find the Winton 2-8-4 to be "oversized," whatever may be meant by that. I'd suppose this description might be subjective, depending on "how oversize" one considers a model to be. Keeping in mind that the original-type (as opposed to the later Winton MaRa kits) Winton models were mostly sheet brass, except for a few cast brass major parts like the steam chests, etc. and the milled brass stock for the chassis, these Berkshire kits represented no prototype railroad engines and had no cast detail parts to dress them up to fit the configuration of any prototype engine. The original Winton Allegheny loosely represented the C&O H-8 Allegheny, and was closer in appearance to a prototype Allegheny than was the Winton Berkshire to any prototypical Berkshire, with both of these models lacking much cast detail.

Now, as for some measurements, and I didn't include my original-type Winton Allegheny as using vernier calipers to get the measured distances, I didn't want to take the chance of marring the finish on my built up and painted original-type Winton Allegheny. If it's felt that measurements are really needed from this engine, I'll try to carefully get its measurements. All measurement I've taken are recorded in inches and not in scale feet, but this should still indicate how close (or not) the Winton Berkshire is in scale in comparison to other models, both of Winton and of Varney. If other manufacturers' engines are also needed to compare their measurements to this Winton Berkshire, I'd be glad to put a ruler to these also.

The only measurements I didn't take were of their overall finished heights, only because they're all still kits. Starting with the Winton MaRa Allegheny, the following are some of the measurements which would indicate if any other model I worked with thus far is "oversize" for H0 scale or not.

Winton MaRa Allegheny:

Boiler diameter at widest point -- 1 1/4"

Firebox at widest point (at its bottom) -- 1 9/16"

Cab Roof Width -- 1 7/16"

Forward Steam Chest width -- 1 1/4"

Rear Steam Chest width -- 1 5/16"

Winton Berkshire:

Boiler diameter -- 1 1/4"

Firebox at widest point (uniform from top to bottom) -- 1 9/16"

Cab roof width -- 1 1/2"

Steam Chest width -- 1 5/16"

Varney (Cast Brass) Berkshire:

Boiler width -- 1 5/32"

Firebox width (at bottom) -- 1 5/16"

Cab Roof width -- 1 17/32"

Steam Chest width -- 1 1/2"

Additional measurement to compare Berkshires;

Cab length of slanted-front Varney Berk (at longest point) -- 1" - with additional 5/16 rear overhang

Cab (Vestibule) length of Winton Berk -- 1 1/4" - with minimum overhang

Approximate overall length (front of boiler to rear of cab, less overhang), Varney Berk -- 6 3/16"

Approximate overall length (front of boiler to rear of cab), Winton Berk -- 7"

The only measurement that seems much greater is the length, but then prototype engines of the same wheel configurations varied, depending on the builder (ALCo, Baldwin, Lima, etc.), the size driving wheels and other differences. If this otherwise seems excessive then perhaps the Winton Berkshire is oversize, but I'm not seeing it this way when all other measurements are close to other manufacturers'. While I haven't measured a Mantua Mikado or Pacific up against Varney Models of the same type, I'm sure there are differences.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/14/2017 7:31:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

In a message dated 6/13/2017 9:40:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I have a Main Line HO #214 Menasha Woodware car beautifully built and neatly detailed and finished by the late great modeler Fred Cribbins (1915-1964). It measures OA 51/ 6” long over ensiles, 16’3” H running board to railhead, and 10’3” W OA. The length is correct, and It is not as egregiously wide as other Main Line models, but…. I too submit that it is oversized, even as a “high” car. In OO scale (4 mm/ft.) the OA height of the car 13’ 4”, within striking distance of the reported 12’9” of the prototype.

Although, I have retired most of my Main Line cars because of their being obviously oversized, I think that this one I will definitely keep.

I was surprised by the comment feeling that the Winton 2-8-4 being oversized, my Winton MaRa 2-6-6-6 being clearly and definitely right to HO scale. aI have had up to three other earlier Winton 2-6-6-6s on the layout, they did not seem oversized to me (I am notoriously finicky about scale and proportionality- for good or bad). I have never seen, much less run an actual functioning Winton 2-8-4…..a rare bird, indeed.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26349	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 6/15/2017
Subject: Main line ModelsMenasha Woodenware box car #214. Oversized.

The standard way of expressing box car height is railhead to top of running board, pretty logical if one thinks about it. The standard way to express overall length (OA) varies from end sill to end sill (seeming this mode) ; length over buffers (if the car has buffers), length over striker plates, or length measured to the inside of coupler pulling faces.

I stand corrected inasmuch as the drawings in the MR Cyc do indeed show 12’9” only over the body itself. However, the elevation plans printed just next to it show that the car is still over height, the prototype measuring railhead to top of running board is about 14’ or so, considerably and significantly less than that actually measured on the model.

I have nothing more to contribute on this except that I love this model, over sized or no.

Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26350	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 6/25/2017
Subject: International,s Scale Model locomotive & Car Kits

Attachments :

MKTAutoInternationalBox1sm.jpg

MKTAutoIntbuilt1sm.jpg

Hi folks,

I just thought I would start a new thread regarding some old HO Vintage stuff I recently worked with. I have 3 of these Internation's kits. I just finished the MKT 50 ft metal automobile car. I also have a 40 ft metal MKT Boxcar and an Armour reefer. I think I did pretty good on the MKT auto car. I attached a photo below. I also added some photos to:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017

for those wanting to see more. I pretty much built it as shown in the instructions, which were pretty sparse, not for a beginner. I did use a Cal Scale Ajax brake box and wheel instead of the poor brass stamping and horrible wheel. I did keep everything else as came with the kit. I did install Kadee couplers and Tichy trucks, since no trucks came with the kit. The actual parts made from thin aluminum are quite good and well engineered, so assembly went easily. I did have to attach roof ribs like the Silver Streak type using CA. I don't know what type of glue would have been used 40 or 50 years ago, Duco? I really don't know much about Internaltional's from Japan, but would be interested in hearing about them from those who know.

One item of interest is that one of the roof rivet stris from the 40 ft MKT Boxcar was missing so I created one. I posted picture in the above album to show what can be done to complete vintage kits with missing parts. It is not perfect, but I feel like once it is painted, most people would be hard put to tell the difference. This was my first attempt at making rivets so I hope to get better in the future.

Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26351	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/25/2017
Subject: Re: International,s Scale Model locomotive & Car Kits [2 Attachments

Vic,

It looks pretty darn good to me. Nothing wrong with vintage kits as long as they are serious kits as opposed to some of the monstrosities put out in the early daze. Well done assembly job there.

BTW, 3 attempts to get the word “vintage” correct. Not typos as such. I just looked at the word, realized my error but continued to press the wrong key about three times. Like my brother signs his email, “growing old is not for sissies.”

Also Vic, I couldn’t help but see the OSTUCO gondola in your photo album. Another nice car you built. And those decals look really well done (shameless plug).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 3:00 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] International,s Scale Model locomotive & Car Kits [2 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from Victor Bitleris included below]

Hi folks,

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017

Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26352	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/25/2017
Subject: Re: International,s Scale Model locomotive & Car Kits [2 Attachme...

Hi Vic,

Always been interested in International, myself as they were headquartered in this country (New York City). Not really an American manufacturer though, but they produced models of American prototypes, being similar to American H0 manufacturers in construction. I guess one could probably say that IMP/Takara kits were knock-offs of Athearn's metal kits, and produced around the same time. Sure, like any other copy, there are minor differences but essentially they're quite similar (except for IMP being made of aluminum).

I seem to recall that, with the help of Chuck Higdon on here who did the spreadsheet, I did a V file on this manufacturer to include much of what was made. It might help to give it a look if you're wondering what else was made by this manufacturer. In addition to freight car kits (which built up well), they also offered factory built models -- factory painted and lettered of course.

In place of CA, your guess of using Dupont Duco cement would have fit in as one used back then. Then again, you might take a tip from Dr. Denny (his message of 8/02/2015) and use "white glue or similar instead of the mucilage, casein, or cellulose glues common at the time."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/25/2017 4:14:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi folks,

I just thought I would start a new thread regarding some old HO Vintage stuff I recently worked with. I have 3 of these Internation's kits. I just finished the MKT 50 ft metal automobile car. I also have a 40 ft metal MKT Boxcar and an Armour reefer. I think I did pretty good on the MKT auto car. I attached a photo below. I also added some photos to:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017

for those wanting to see more. I pretty much built it as shown in the instructions, which were pretty sparse, not for a beginner. I did use a Cal Scale Ajax brake box and wheel instead of the poor brass stamping and horrible wheel. I did keep everything else as came with the kit. I did install Kadee couplers and Tichy trucks, since no trucks came with the kit. The actual parts made from thin aluminum are quite good and well engineered, so assembly went easily. I did have to attach roof ribs like the Silver Streak type using CA. I don't know what type of glue would have been used 40 or 50 years ago, Duco? I really don't know much about Internaltional's from Japan, but would be interested in hearing about them from those who know.

One item of interest is that one of the roof rivet stris from the 40 ft MKT Boxcar was missing so I created one. I posted picture in the above album to show what can be done to complete vintage kits with missing parts. It is not perfect, but I feel like once it is painted, most people would be hard put to tell the difference. This was my first attempt at making rivets so I hope to get better in the future.

Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26353	From: prandn	Date: 6/25/2017
Subject: Athearn BB kit Parts Envelopes

I recently purchased an Athearn SW1500 ( old SW7 ) BB locomotive. Unfortunately it came without the parts envelope ( Horn, bell Handrails, etc. ) Does anyone know of a place to purchase parts or maybe even have these parts that they would consider parting with? Thank you.

loren martell

Portland, OR 97229

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26354	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/25/2017
Subject: Re: Athearn BB kit Parts Envelopes

Attachments :

Ebay has some handrails,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Athearn-HO-EMD-SW1500-Switcher-Diesel-Handrails-Stanchions-39015-NEW-FAST-SHIP-/282540470371?hash=item41c8b97063:g:WRUAAOSw-89ZTXt1

Athearn does not have them on their site.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 4:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn BB kit Parts Envelopes

loren martell

Portland, OR 97229

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26355	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 6/25/2017
Subject: Any idea as to the maker?

Attachments :

IMG_2443.JPG

Hard plastic sides, and a plywood floor. No instructions in the box.

Kent Hurley

Kansas City, MO

Check out my blog at http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26356	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 6/26/2017
Subject: Re: International,s Scale Model locomotive & Car Kits

Yes, the decals were wonderful to use. The guy who made them is really sharp! VBG 😉

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 5:52 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] International,s Scale Model locomotive & Car Kits

Vic,

It looks pretty darn good to me. Nothing wrong with vintage kits as long as they are serious kits as opposed to some of the monstrosities put out in the early daze. Well done assembly job there.

Also Vic, I couldn’t help but see the OSTUCO gondola in your photo album. Another nice car you built. And those decals look really well done (shameless plug).

John Hagen

[Attachment(s) from Victor Bitleris included below]

Hi folks,

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017

Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26357	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/26/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

Kent,

I know my 74 year old eyes often miss the obvious but what type of car is it? From what I see it is likely a flat car but ……….

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 9:45 PM
To: Vintage HO Yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below]

Hard plastic sides, and a plywood floor. No instructions in the box.

Kent Hurley

Kansas City, MO

Check out my blog at http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26358	From: al45390	Date: 6/26/2017
Subject: Re: Body bolster for Mantua HO aluminum passenger passenger cars

Just checking again, Does anyone have a body bolster for a Mantua extruded aluminum 74' passenger car (the older cars, lit by only one light bulb in a plastic diffuser, not the 2 small bulbs strapped to the floor)?

Thanks,

Walter

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <bayerw2@...> wrote :

Thanks,
Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26359	From: nvrr49	Date: 6/26/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

Attachments :

FullSizeRender (2).jpg

It is a Gondola. In this picture the sides are at the top clamped to straighten them. No instructions, and no makers mark that I can find.

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26360	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 6/26/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

H'lo Kent...my guess, based on the couplers and trucks, would be early Tenshodo or one of the Japanese builders for IMP.

Russ in Adelaide

From: "nvrr49@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 12:56
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... [vintageHO] included below]

It is a Gondola. In this picture the sides are at the top clamped to straighten them. No instructions, and no makers mark that I can find.

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26361	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/26/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Now that I can see the second photo, I’d agree on Tenshodo.

The couplers are definitely the Tenshodo version of the Baker coupler.

Also, If this is the OB, Tenshodo used sliverish paper covered cover on their boxes. Their labels have/had a tendency to just drop off as the adhesive evaporated, often leaving no trace of having ever been there.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 10:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

H'lo Kent...my guess, based on the couplers and trucks, would be early Tenshodo or one of the Japanese builders for IMP.

Russ in Adelaide

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... [vintageHO] included below]

It is a Gondola. In this picture the sides are at the top clamped to straighten them. No instructions, and no makers mark that I can find.

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26362	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/26/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

What would throw me off is that the sides are described as hard plastic. I never knew Tenshodo (or IMP [or Takara]) to use any plastic in their models, and especially not major components of plastic.

Ray W.

In a message dated 6/27/2017 12:27:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Now that I can see the second photo, I’d agree on Tenshodo.

The couplers are definitely the Tenshodo version of the Baker coupler.

Also, If this is the OB, Tenshodo used sliverish paper covered cover on their boxes. Their labels have/had a tendency to just drop off as the adhesive evaporated, often leaving no trace of having ever been there.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 10:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

H'lo Kent...my guess, based on the couplers and trucks, would be early Tenshodo or one of the Japanese builders for IMP.

Russ in Adelaide

From: "nvrr49@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 12:56
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... [vintageHO] included below]

It is a Gondola. In this picture the sides are at the top clamped to straighten them. No instructions, and no makers mark that I can find.

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26363	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 6/26/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

That's what threw me, Ray...maybe something more exotic, like New One Models?...wooden floor, Japanese couplers and Tenshodo trucks suggest somebody 'around' that group of ?cottage manufacturers....I've been sleuthing through HO seeker...I recall a similar kit from 'somewhere', but the aging neurones have a tight grip on it (!)...Pacific Pike??...and actually finding it in the morass of unbuilt kits spread around my various shelves would be a herculean task...I'll nibble away at it....neurones may relent!.....chrs Russ

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 14:18
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

What would throw me off is that the sides are described as hard plastic. I never knew Tenshodo (or IMP [or Takara]) to use any plastic in their models, and especially not major components of plastic.

Ray W.

In a message dated 6/27/2017 12:27:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Now that I can see the second photo, I’d agree on Tenshodo.

The couplers are definitely the Tenshodo version of the Baker coupler.

Also, If this is the OB, Tenshodo used sliverish paper covered cover on their boxes. Their labels have/had a tendency to just drop off as the adhesive evaporated, often leaving no trace of having ever been there.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 10:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

H'lo Kent...my guess, based on the couplers and trucks, would be early Tenshodo or one of the Japanese builders for IMP.

Russ in Adelaide

From: "nvrr49@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 12:56
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... [vintageHO] included below]

It is a Gondola. In this picture the sides are at the top clamped to straighten them. No instructions, and no makers mark that I can find.

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26364	From: rayzef	Date: 6/26/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Hi Group
I have 3 Plastic/Bakelite Tenshodo NYC Passenger Cars in Silver Boxes. They did play with plastics but it is very hard like Bakerlite.
Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26365	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/27/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Well, I also spent some time perusing Hoseeker with little success. None of the Tenshodo catalogs were old enough to display their US freight cars. I did find early brass cars listed in some of the International catalogs but only the earliest had a gondola. And the heading stated the cars were all brass and the gondola listed heavy, etched brass sides. I did check PFM and found no freight cars listed.

So, while the couplers, trucks and maybe the box would seem to indicate a Tenshodo car, who knows?

Ray Z’s passenger cars may be the clue here. And the hard, Bakelite type plastic would fit in with the early 50’s era, especially from Japan.

Either way, you have a very interesting find.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 1:49 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

Hi Group
I have 3 Plastic/Bakelite Tenshodo NYC Passenger Cars in Silver Boxes. They did play with plastics but it is very hard like Bakerlite.
Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26366	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/27/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Hi Russ,

I had New One Models in mind also, but I still never saw one with plastic sides. The "hard" plastic also threw me . . . as being opposed to "soft" plastic," but then I wasn't thinking in terms of bakelite, as Ray Z has just brought up having 3 Tenshodo NYC passenger cars of this material. Then too, any Tenshodo passenger cars I have are formed (sheet) metal, not plastic, so it looks like these had to have been manufactured early -- and probably in much fewer numbers. We'll recall that Varney used bakelite in some of their pre-War gondolas.

Another thing that threw me off was the "plywood" floor. I can't recall any manufacturer using plywood that thin that it could be used with H0 models, but perhaps so. Most, if not all such wood parts are usually just thin solid basswood or similar wood material. Athearn's scribed wood flat car deck used with the metal flatcars is a typical example (but it's not plywood of any sort).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/27/2017 1:26:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

That's what threw me, Ray...maybe something more exotic, like New One Models?...wooden floor, Japanese couplers and Tenshodo trucks suggest somebody 'around' that group of ?cottage manufacturers....I've been sleuthing through HO seeker...I recall a similar kit from 'somewhere', but the aging neurones have a tight grip on it (!)...Pacific Pike??...and actually finding it in the morass of unbuilt kits spread around my various shelves would be a herculean task...I'll nibble away at it....neurones may relent!.....chrs Russ

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 14:18
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

What would throw me off is that the sides are described as hard plastic. I never knew Tenshodo (or IMP [or Takara]) to use any plastic in their models, and especially not major components of plastic.

Ray W.

In a message dated 6/27/2017 12:27:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Now that I can see the second photo, I’d agree on Tenshodo.

The couplers are definitely the Tenshodo version of the Baker coupler.

Also, If this is the OB, Tenshodo used sliverish paper covered cover on their boxes. Their labels have/had a tendency to just drop off as the adhesive evaporated, often leaving no trace of having ever been there.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 10:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

H'lo Kent...my guess, based on the couplers and trucks, would be early Tenshodo or one of the Japanese builders for IMP.

Russ in Adelaide

From: "nvrr49@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 12:56
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... [vintageHO] included below]

It is a Gondola. In this picture the sides are at the top clamped to straighten them. No instructions, and no makers mark that I can find.

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26367	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/27/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

H'lo again Russ,

Just wanted to let you know that I have the disadvantage of not being able to open a attachment sent through Yahoo NEO, ever since Yahoo introduced Neo as part of their Group sites (3 or 4 years ago?). So, I'm unable to see what this model looks like. Every since some of the members stated it was a Tenshodo or other Japanese makers, partially going by the baker-type couplers (which of course I couldn't see either), I had to just assume everyone was on the right path, but the pre-War Varney bakelite gondola came to my mind as soon as I read the description, and before anyone had posted.

The description of, "Hard plastic sides and a plywood floor. No instructions in the box," is not much of a description though. I don't even have any idea of what the box looks like but I'm just assuming it's one of those low flat boxes that these Japanese kits came in. I'm also assuming it's a kit that's original to the box, and if it had a Varney box there'd be no problem identifying it. Might not be in it's original box, however, but with little to go on and not being able to see it, it's hard to know what it could be, except just suggesting something it could be.

Ray

In a message dated 6/27/2017 1:26:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

That's what threw me, Ray...maybe something more exotic, like New One Models?...wooden floor, Japanese couplers and Tenshodo trucks suggest somebody 'around' that group of ?cottage manufacturers....I've been sleuthing through HO seeker...I recall a similar kit from 'somewhere', but the aging neurones have a tight grip on it (!)...Pacific Pike??...and actually finding it in the morass of unbuilt kits spread around my various shelves would be a herculean task...I'll nibble away at it....neurones may relent!.....chrs Russ

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 14:18
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

What would throw me off is that the sides are described as hard plastic. I never knew Tenshodo (or IMP [or Takara]) to use any plastic in their models, and especially not major components of plastic.

Ray W.

In a message dated 6/27/2017 12:27:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Now that I can see the second photo, I’d agree on Tenshodo.

The couplers are definitely the Tenshodo version of the Baker coupler.

Also, If this is the OB, Tenshodo used sliverish paper covered cover on their boxes. Their labels have/had a tendency to just drop off as the adhesive evaporated, often leaving no trace of having ever been there.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 10:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

H'lo Kent...my guess, based on the couplers and trucks, would be early Tenshodo or one of the Japanese builders for IMP.

Russ in Adelaide

From: "nvrr49@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 12:56
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... [vintageHO] included below]

It is a Gondola. In this picture the sides are at the top clamped to straighten them. No instructions, and no makers mark that I can find.

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26368	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/27/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Just wanted to add, if the fact that Tenshodo made bakelite passenger cars still doesn't clinch this "hard plastic" gondola as being this manufacturer's product, that I did thoroughly search the archives of the HO SC&H SIG's The Reporting Mark bulletins for Tenshodo possibly having a bakelite gondola. There was no mention of any such model (although that doesn't prove there wasn't), but of Tenshodo's gondolas, Dave Spanagel stated in full "My gondola sides and ends are shiny diecast metal (possibly zamac with plating)."

I checked The Reporting Mark archives for Pacific Pike, Shinohara, New One and Suzuki & Edwards for anything that might indicate something. It was stated that Tenshodo kits came with trucks enclosed in a CelloPak (I guess, cellophane packing), and that at least some earlier Tenshodo gondolas had cardboard sides, but nothing on plastic sides. As for Suzuki & Edwards (Tokyo, Japan), it was stated they were packed in brown boxes. I read somewhere in this thread that the model in question came in a white box.

If it still hasn't been resolved as to the manufacturer of this mystery gondola, with keeping in mind the modeler may have installed (or just added them to the kit box) his choice of trucks and/or couplers, I'm leaning towards the pre-war Varney gondola as a prime candidate. If anyone has the 1939 Varney catalog, please compare the photo of the gondola there on page 30; it's listed under (NEW PLASTIC CARS). Varney describes it as being made of "Tenite," a hard plastic very similar to bakelite but not as brittle. It's a model of a 50 Ton composite gondola with simulated wood siding and simulated steel bracing -- similar to Ulrich's composite gondola, but shorter. This same car was made by Varney in 1938, but that year's catalog stated it was "an all metal die cast car" that year. By 1940, Varney discontinued it and introduced the high-sided 44 foot long 70 Ton gondola having thin stamped brass car sides for 1940 and 1941, so the Tenite gondola was made for only one year. If this mystery gondola is of the composite type car, which I'm unable to see, it's a good bet it's this early Varney. Otherwise, it seems inconclusive.

Ray Wetzel

H'lo again Russ,

Just wanted to let you know that I have the disadvantage of not being able to open a attachment sent through Yahoo NEO, ever since Yahoo introduced Neo as part of their Group sites (3 or 4 years ago?). So, I'm unable to see what this model looks like. Every since some of the members stated it was a Tenshodo or other Japanese makers, partially going by the baker-type couplers (which of course I couldn't see either), I had to just assume everyone was on the right path, but the pre-War Varney bakelite gondola came to my mind as soon as I read the description, and before anyone had posted.

The description of, "Hard plastic sides and a plywood floor. No instructions in the box," is not much of a description though. I don't even have any idea of what the box looks like but I'm just assuming it's one of those low flat boxes that these Japanese kits came in. I'm also assuming it's a kit that's original to the box, and if it had a Varney box there'd be no problem identifying it. Might not be in it's original box, however, but with little to go on and not being able to see it, it's hard to know what it could be, except just suggesting something it could be.

Ray

In a message dated 6/27/2017 1:26:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

That's what threw me, Ray...maybe something more exotic, like New One Models?...wooden floor, Japanese couplers and Tenshodo trucks suggest somebody 'around' that group of ?cottage manufacturers....I've been sleuthing through HO seeker...I recall a similar kit from 'somewhere', but the aging neurones have a tight grip on it (!)...Pacific Pike??...and actually finding it in the morass of unbuilt kits spread around my various shelves would be a herculean task...I'll nibble away at it....neurones may relent!.....chrs Russ

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 14:18
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

What would throw me off is that the sides are described as hard plastic. I never knew Tenshodo (or IMP [or Takara]) to use any plastic in their models, and especially not major components of plastic.

Ray W.

In a message dated 6/27/2017 12:27:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Now that I can see the second photo, I’d agree on Tenshodo.

The couplers are definitely the Tenshodo version of the Baker coupler.

Also, If this is the OB, Tenshodo used sliverish paper covered cover on their boxes. Their labels have/had a tendency to just drop off as the adhesive evaporated, often leaving no trace of having ever been there.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 10:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

H'lo Kent...my guess, based on the couplers and trucks, would be early Tenshodo or one of the Japanese builders for IMP.

Russ in Adelaide

From: "nvrr49@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017, 12:56
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... [vintageHO] included below]

It is a Gondola. In this picture the sides are at the top clamped to straighten them. No instructions, and no makers mark that I can find.

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26369	From: nvrr49	Date: 6/28/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Attachments :

box end.jpg

Here is a picture of the end of the box. The box is just less than 1" tall. The plastic sides and ends, to me, don't seem like bakelite, as they are dull, and somewhat flexible. Let me know if you would like some other pictures or information (not that I have much).

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com (a model railroad blog)

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26370	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/28/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

FWIW, the only other manufacturer I've seen use a lot of bakelite for bodies was Rivarossi in their locomotives in the 50's.

The plywoof flooring boters me a little bit though.

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 6/27/17, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2017, 1:04 PM

Just wanted to
add, if the fact that
Tenshodo made bakelite passenger cars still doesn't
clinch this "hard plastic"
gondola as being this manufacturer's product, that I did
thoroughly search the
archives of the HO SC&H SIG's The Reporting Mark
bulletins for
Tenshodo possibly having a bakelite gondola. There was no
mention of any
such model (although that doesn't prove there
wasn't), but of Tenshodo's
gondolas, Dave Spanagel stated in full "My gondola
sides and ends are shiny
diecast metal (possibly zamac with
plating)."

I checked The
Reporting Mark
archives for Pacific Pike, Shinohara, New One and
Suzuki & Edwards for anything that might indicate
something. It
was stated that Tenshodo kits came with trucks enclosed in a
CelloPak
(I guess, cellophane packing), and that at least some
earlier Tenshodo
gondolas had cardboard sides, but nothing on plastic
sides. As for Suzuki
& Edwards (Tokyo, Japan), it was stated they were packed
in brown
boxes. I read somewhere in this thread that the model in
question came in
a white box.

If it still
hasn't been resolved as to
the manufacturer of this mystery gondola, with keeping in
mind the modeler may
have installed (or just added them to the kit box) his
choice of trucks and/or
couplers, I'm leaning towards the pre-war Varney gondola
as a prime
candidate. If anyone has the 1939 Varney catalog, please
compare the photo
of the gondola there on page 30; it's listed under (NEW
PLASTIC
CARS). Varney describes it as being made of
"Tenite," a hard plastic
very similar to bakelite but not as brittle. It's a
model of a 50 Ton
composite gondola with simulated wood siding and simulated
steel bracing --
similar to Ulrich's composite gondola, but shorter.
This same car was made
by Varney in 1938, but that year's catalog stated it
was "an all metal die
cast car" that year. By 1940, Varney discontinued it
and introduced the
high-sided 44 foot long 70 Ton gondola having thin stamped
brass car sides for
1940 and 1941, so the Tenite gondola was made for only one
year. If this
mystery gondola is of the composite type car, which I'm
unable to see, it's
a good bet it's this early Varney. Otherwise, it
seems
inconclusive.

Ray
Wetzel

H'lo again
Russ,

Just wanted to
let you know that I
have the disadvantage of not being able to open a
attachment sent through
Yahoo NEO, ever since Yahoo introduced Neo as part of
their Group sites (3 or
4 years ago?). So, I'm unable to see what this model
looks like.
Every since some of the members stated it was a Tenshodo
or other Japanese
makers, partially going by the baker-type couplers (which
of course I couldn't
see either), I had to just assume everyone was on the
right path, but the
pre-War Varney bakelite gondola came to my mind as soon as
I read the
description, and before anyone had posted.

The description
of, "Hard plastic
sides and a plywood floor. No instructions in the
box," is not much of a
description though. I don't even have any idea of
what the box looks
like but I'm just assuming it's one of those
low flat boxes that these
Japanese kits came in. I'm also assuming it's
a kit that's original
to the box, and if it had a Varney box there'd be no
problem identifying
it. Might not be in it's original box, however, but
with little to go on
and not being able to see it, it's hard to know what
it could be, except
just suggesting something it could be.

Ray

In a message dated 6/27/2017 1:26:20 A.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

That's
what threw me, Ray...maybe something more exotic, like
New One
Models?...wooden floor, Japanese couplers and Tenshodo
trucks suggest
somebody 'around' that group of ?cottage
manufacturers....I've been
sleuthing through HO seeker...I recall a similar kit
from 'somewhere', but
the aging neurones have a tight grip on it (!)...Pacific
Pike??...and
actually finding it in the morass of unbuilt kits
spread around my
various shelves would be a herculean task...I'll
nibble away at
it....neurones may relent!.....chrs Russ

From:
"eriepacific@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, 27 June
2017, 14:18
Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

What would
throw me off is that the
sides are described as hard plastic. I never knew
Tenshodo (or IMP [or
Takara]) to use any plastic in their models, and
especially not major
components of plastic.

Ray
W.

In a
message dated 6/27/2017
12:27:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Now that I can see the
second photo,
I’d agree on Tenshodo.
The couplers are
definitely the
Tenshodo version of the Baker coupler.
Also, If this is the
OB, Tenshodo used
sliverish paper covered cover on their boxes. Their
labels have/had a
tendency to just drop off as the adhesive evaporated,
often leaving no
trace of having ever been there.
John
Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday,
June 26, 2017 10:42 PM
To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO]
Any idea as to the maker?

H'lo Kent...my
guess, based on the
couplers and trucks, would be early Tenshodo or one of
the Japanese
builders for IMP.

Russ in
Adelaide

From: "nvrr49@...

[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, 27 June 2017,
12:56
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Any
idea as to the maker? [1
Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from
nvrr49@...
[vintageHO]
included below]

It is a
Gondola. In this picture the sides are
at the top clamped to straighten them. No
instructions, and no
makers mark that I can find.

Kent
Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239 --
#yiv5657568239ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mkp #yiv5657568239hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mkp #yiv5657568239ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mkp .yiv5657568239ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mkp .yiv5657568239ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mkp .yiv5657568239ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5657568239ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5657568239ygrp-lc #yiv5657568239hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5657568239ygrp-lc .yiv5657568239ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239activity span
.yiv5657568239underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5657568239 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5657568239 dd.yiv5657568239last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5657568239 dd.yiv5657568239last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5657568239 dd.yiv5657568239last p
span.yiv5657568239yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv5657568239 div.yiv5657568239attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5657568239 div.yiv5657568239attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv5657568239 div.yiv5657568239file-title a, #yiv5657568239
div.yiv5657568239file-title a:active, #yiv5657568239
div.yiv5657568239file-title a:hover, #yiv5657568239
div.yiv5657568239file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5657568239 div.yiv5657568239photo-title a,
#yiv5657568239 div.yiv5657568239photo-title a:active,
#yiv5657568239 div.yiv5657568239photo-title a:hover,
#yiv5657568239 div.yiv5657568239photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5657568239 div#yiv5657568239ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv5657568239ygrp-msg p a span.yiv5657568239yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv5657568239 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5657568239 .yiv5657568239replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv5657568239 input, #yiv5657568239 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv5657568239
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-mlmsg #yiv5657568239logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-msg
p#yiv5657568239attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-reco
#yiv5657568239reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-sponsor #yiv5657568239ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-sponsor #yiv5657568239ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-sponsor #yiv5657568239ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv5657568239 #yiv5657568239ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv5657568239

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26371	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/28/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

Well,

The added photo does prove that the car is a gondola but little else.

And plastic that is flexible would seem to eliminate Bakelite.

Well, this continues to be elusive to me. Guess I’m just too darn young to remember who made it. That’s what happens when a 74 year old kid tries to remember this sort of thing.

Assuming this is older than, say, the 1980’s when resin casting became practical, casting plastic was a somewhat expensive venture. It would seem there should have been a large enough number of these kits to be recognized by someone.

Considering the trucks and couplers it would almost have to have been made in 50’s or very early 60’s.

Oh well, makes for a bit of excitement here.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2017 7:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... [vintageHO] included below]

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com (a model railroad blog)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26372	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

I'm not all too sure that casting (molding) plastic was that expensive. I believe that since it was relatively inexpensive (compared to diecasting metal, or using other material such as formed sheet brass), this was the primary reason for Athearn to mold the Globe F-Unit shells and for Varney to discontinue his metal car line in favor of molded plastic car kits, albeit these did not replace the metal box cars and reefers, but were new type freight cars to include open hopper, covered hoppers and cabooses (as early as 1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas (1952), cattle cars (1953), outside-braced box cars (1954), with flat cars and ore cars (1953) and wood-sheathed reefers (1956) replacing earlier metal cars of the same type. The plastic wood-sheathed reefers were similar in design to the metal Private Owner series of six Reefers of 1954. After Sol Kramer took over in May of 1957, Kramer continued producing plastic cars to include replacements of steel-sided box cars and other newer types of freight cars for the Varney line. Others, such as Train Miniature soon was marketing car kits in molded plastic. Even Roundhouse/MDC went to plastic after being known for their quality die-cast metal freight car kits.

As we all know too, Athearn introduced plastic freight cars to replace his metal line of these cars in 1957, starting with his boxcars (#'s 101 through 106), and continued producing only plastic cars, phasing out the metal ones in 1960. When Irv first produced passenger cars in 1957, they were molded plastic, unlike Varney's metal (stamped-steel) passenger cars that came out in the Fall of 1950. For that matter, Varney later (in 1956) produced his Aerotrain in plastic. This gondola in question definitely appears (much) older than the 1980's and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned early on that plastic would be more economical to produce. That this material is scarce in Japanese kits (since we see practically none -- other than this one), they may have run into the same problem at this same time, as Varney and Globe ran into with their Tenite plastic car sides often warping, and discontinued its use early.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/28/2017 10:14:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Well,

The added photo does prove that the car is a gondola but little else.

And plastic that is flexible would seem to eliminate Bakelite.

Well, this continues to be elusive to me. Guess I’m just too darn young to remember who made it. That’s what happens when a 74 year old kid tries to remember this sort of thing.

Assuming this is older than, say, the 1980’s when resin casting became practical, casting plastic was a somewhat expensive venture. It would seem there should have been a large enough number of these kits to be recognized by someone.

Considering the trucks and couplers it would almost have to have been made in 50’s or very early 60’s.

Oh well, makes for a bit of excitement here.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2017 7:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... [vintageHO] included below]

Here is a picture of the end of the box. The box is just less than 1" tall. The plastic sides and ends, to me, don't seem like bakelite, as they are dull, and somewhat flexible. Let me know if you would like some other pictures or information (not that I have much).

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com (a model railroad blog)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26373	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Ray,

Your synopsis is right on. However, plastic molding in large numbers is definitely cheaper than die cast or etched brass. Which is why I said if they were molded there should have been a goodly number of them produced.

Plastic molding of product was likely not all that available in post war Japan. While they did start exporting merchandise to the US in the early 50’s I recall a lot of tin plate product. The first plastic product from Japan that I recall having was an early transistor radio that I received for Christmas around 1957.

Of course this is all memories of long ago from a guy who can’t remember where he laid his glasses 3 minutes ago.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:53 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

Ray Wetzel

FullSizeRender-26391(1).jpg

· New Photos 6

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26374	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

John,

While you can't find your glasses after three minutes, how do you expect me -- being four years older than you -- to remember any better than you < g >? Yes, we can all agree that plastic molding in larger numbers is definitely cheaper, although some manufacturer obviously molded this plastic-sided model, and it definitely looks Japanese. That none of these early Japanese H0 manufacturers produced very large runs -- as did Athearn or Varney -- perhaps this was the reason why early Japanese plastic-sided cars were discontinued seemingly almost as fast as they were introduced -- and I still maintain this gondola is a Japanese product. While plastic molding appears to have been fairly reasonable in America, it may not necessarily have been that cheap in Japan, or maybe metal was even cheaper for them. Example; IMP used stamped aluminum sides.

While we don't know very much about this mystery gondola, let's focus on what we do know. For starters, I do tend to agree with you somewhat in that plastic molding may not have been available in post-war Japan, yet we know that Varney produced Tenite plastic gondolas in America in 1938. There's no reason to believe that plastic molding technology for model trains was not available pre-War -- and, no reason not to believe that they couldn't have copied this technology from Varney even at that early date. IMP's (as an example) first ad in MR magazine was September 1938, indicating the time they at least started their business (if not before), so they certainly had the time to develop this method.

Now getting to what we do know about this mystery car, we know it has Baker-type couplers, with again IMP (as an example calling them "Kupeeze" couplers. This would seem to indicate that this car definitely was not produced very shortly after the War, as may have previously been believed. Using IMP yet again, they produced their first freight car kits in September 1951. Tenshodo, New One, Pacific Pike, Shinohara and others may have produced their first H0 freight car kit even before then, or possibly later; we don't really know for sure although Tenshodo was well established at least by 1954 (and most likely, earlier). It may be safe to say most if not all of these Japanese model makers were producing freight car kits approximately around the same time, give or take a few years.

Keeping the Baker-style couplers in mind, the Baker Mfg. Co. first advertised in MR in July 1947, concentrating solely on their bronze passenger engine body casting EMD E-4A (or E-6A) and aluminum passenger engine body casting EMD (E-4B (or E-6B), and their 6 wheel and 12 wheel drives -- as per HO SC&H SIG The Reporting Mark." Further, it was so stated in The Reporting Mark, that Baker was better known for their distinctive coupler in later years, and that they were still concentrating on their locomotive drives, for Tenshodo's 1000 HP Diesel Switcher in 1957, as one of several Tenshodo used. The Baker coupler was not their main product but appears to have come out shortly before IMP produced their first freight car kit (in 1951), keeping in mind that IMP included their knock-off Kupeeze couplers with these first kits. The major difference between the Baker coupler and the Japanese copies apparently was that the Baker coupler's hook was spring operated, as per HO SC&H. So, this mystery gondola can't be too much older than 1951 or there abouts, and yes, it could be newer. By this time, the Japanese model makers could very well have developed plastic molding. Doesn't tell us too much more about this gondola, but it seems to be narrowed down a bit to the period it was produced.

Looks like Japan had gotten a very early start in the electronics that they continued to become famous for not too long ago, by your mention of their 1957 transister radio.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/29/2017 10:29:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Your synopsis is right on. However, plastic molding in large numbers is definitely cheaper than die cast or etched brass. Which is why I said if they were molded there should have been a goodly number of them produced.

Plastic molding of product was likely not all that available in post war Japan. While they did start exporting merchandise to the US in the early 50’s I recall a lot of tin plate product. The first plastic product from Japan that I recall having was an early transistor radio that I received for Christmas around 1957.

Of course this is all memories of long ago from a guy who can’t remember where he laid his glasses 3 minutes ago.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:53 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

I'm not all too sure that casting (molding) plastic was that expensive. I believe that since it was relatively inexpensive (compared to diecasting metal, or using other material such as formed sheet brass), this was the primary reason for Athearn to mold the Globe F-Unit shells and for Varney to discontinue his metal car line in favor of molded plastic car kits, albeit these did not replace the metal box cars and reefers, but were new type freight cars to include open hopper, covered hoppers and cabooses (as early as 1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas (1952), cattle cars (1953), outside-braced box cars (1954), with flat cars and ore cars (1953) and wood-sheathed reefers (1956) replacing earlier metal cars of the same type. The plastic wood-sheathed reefers were similar in design to the metal Private Owner series of six Reefers of 1954. After Sol Kramer took over in May of 1957, Kramer continued producing plastic cars to include replacements of steel-sided box cars and other newer types of freight cars for the Varney line. Others, such as Train Miniature soon was marketing car kits in molded plastic. Even Roundhouse/MDC went to plastic after being known for their quality die-cast metal freight car kits.

As we all know too, Athearn introduced plastic freight cars to replace his metal line of these cars in 1957, starting with his boxcars (#'s 101 through 106), and continued producing only plastic cars, phasing out the metal ones in 1960. When Irv first produced passenger cars in 1957, they were molded plastic, unlike Varney's metal (stamped-steel) passenger cars that came out in the Fall of 1950. For that matter, Varney later (in 1956) produced his Aerotrain in plastic. This gondola in question definitely appears (much) older than the 1980's and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned early on that plastic would be more economical to produce. That this material is scarce in Japanese kits (since we see practically none -- other than this one), they may have run into the same problem at this same time, as Varney and Globe ran into with their Tenite plastic car sides often warping, and discontinued its use early.

Ray Wetzel

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

· New Photos 6

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26375	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

The actual casting process and material costs for plastics are much cheaper than other materials.

Where the cost in plastc injection moldng was not the unit cost, it's the TOOLING. The cost for the dies alone to produce an HO locomotive these days can be in five or six figures. If you're only going to produce a thousand models, that cost has to amortized over how many in the production run.

That's where the resin kits showed their strength. They could be made from relatively inexpensive flat molds. That's also why many of the early plastic models were cars that were originally made in metal, since many of the diecast molds could be used for plastic molding with relatively little modification.

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 6/29/17, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 29, 2017, 8:52 AM

I'm not all too sure that
casting (molding) plastic was
that expensive. I believe that since it was relatively
inexpensive
(compared to diecasting metal, or using other material such
as formed sheet
brass), this was the primary reason for Athearn to mold the
Globe F-Unit shells
and for Varney to discontinue his metal car line in favor of
molded plastic car
kits, albeit these did not replace the metal box cars and
reefers, but were
new type freight cars to include open hopper, covered
hoppers and
cabooses (as early as 1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas
(1952), cattle
cars (1953), outside-braced box cars (1954), with flat cars
and ore cars
(1953) and wood-sheathed reefers (1956) replacing earlier
metal cars of the same
type. The plastic wood-sheathed reefers were similar in
design to the
metal Private Owner series of six Reefers of 1954. After
Sol Kramer took
over in May of 1957, Kramer continued producing plastic cars
to include
replacements of steel-sided box cars and other newer types
of freight cars for
the Varney line. Others, such as Train Miniature soon was
marketing car
kits in molded plastic. Even Roundhouse/MDC went to
plastic after being
known for their quality die-cast metal freight car kits.

As we all know too, Athearn
introduced plastic freight
cars to replace his metal line of these cars in 1957,
starting with his boxcars
(#'s 101 through 106), and continued producing only
plastic cars, phasing out
the metal ones in 1960. When Irv first produced passenger
cars in 1957,
they were molded plastic, unlike Varney's metal
(stamped-steel) passenger cars that came out in the Fall of
1950. For
that matter, Varney later (in 1956) produced his Aerotrain
in plastic.
This gondola in question definitely appears (much) older
than the 1980's
and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned early on
that plastic would be
more economical to produce. That this material is scarce
in Japanese kits
(since we see practically none -- other than this one), they
may have run into
the same problem at this same time, as Varney and Globe ran
into with their
Tenite plastic car sides often warping, and discontinued its
use
early.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/28/2017 10:14:04 P.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Well,
The added
photo does prove that the car is a gondola but little
else.
And plastic
that is flexible would seem to eliminate
Bakelite.
Well, this
continues to be elusive to me. Guess I’m just too darn
young to remember who
made it. That’s what happens when a 74 year old kid
tries to remember this
sort of thing.
Assuming this
is older than, say, the 1980’s when resin casting became
practical, casting
plastic was a somewhat expensive venture. It would seem
there should have been
a large enough number of these kits to be recognized by
someone.

Considering
the trucks and couplers it would almost have to have been
made in 50’s or very
early 60’s.
Oh well,
makes for a bit of excitement here.
John
Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2017
7:06 PM
To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re:
[vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1
Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from
nvrr49@...
[vintageHO] included
below]
Here is a picture of the end of the box. The box is
just less than 1"
tall. The plastic sides and ends, to me, don't seem
like bakelite, as
they are dull, and somewhat flexible. Let me know if you
would like some
other pictures or information (not that I have much).

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com (a
model railroad
blog)

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928 --
#yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp #yiv8474777928hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp #yiv8474777928ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp .yiv8474777928ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp .yiv8474777928ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp .yiv8474777928ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8474777928ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8474777928ygrp-lc #yiv8474777928hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8474777928ygrp-lc .yiv8474777928ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span
.yiv8474777928underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 dd.yiv8474777928last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 dd.yiv8474777928last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 dd.yiv8474777928last p
span.yiv8474777928yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928file-title a, #yiv8474777928
div.yiv8474777928file-title a:active, #yiv8474777928
div.yiv8474777928file-title a:hover, #yiv8474777928
div.yiv8474777928file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928photo-title a,
#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928photo-title a:active,
#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 div#yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8474777928ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8474777928yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8474777928 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8474777928 input, #yiv8474777928 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8474777928
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8474777928logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-msg
p#yiv8474777928attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-reco
#yiv8474777928reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor #yiv8474777928ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor #yiv8474777928ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor #yiv8474777928ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8474777928

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26376	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Ray,

Gee you look good for your age.

One of my interests in trains, prototype and model, is rr cranes, especially wrecking cranes.

I am always looking for early kits and those early die cast Athearn’s IF they haven’t disintegrated. A few years ago, more than 5 less than 10, I spotted a rather nicely done crane on eBay. The seller had little information on it so I won it for something like $36.00.

When it arrived I discovered it to be a Tenshodo 200 ton B&O brass model. They only produced around 197 of them from 1955 – 1957. And they had those Baker like couplers. The way I remember to differentiate them from Baker’s was the elongated loop (to the right side if memory serves) and of course the lack of the spring. So we know that coupler was used at least until 1957.

Wish I had kept that model but, always being tight on money, once I found out what they were selling for, I put it back on eBay and made over $150.00.

I found a die cast Athearn that was in very good condition at a local swap meet about three years ago. It was being sold by a lady from “up north” Wisconsin who was selling off her deceased husband’s trains. Saw it, bought it, and some offered more than double what I paid for it later at same swap. Didn’t even get to take it home.

I am sure that the technology was likely available by the early 50’s in Japan, I would venture that it was still on the pricey side. And making the tooling, which is want makes injection molded plastic expensive was probably high priced for such a product.

Then again there is the possibility that these sides and ends were flat cast. Molds would have been much cheaper than injection mold dies and the cost of the injection molding machinery would be avoided. But the process would be labor intensive and the amount of poor, unusable castings would be high. That could account for the rarity of these models.

This thread is reminding me of the industrial power of the USA from the end of the war into the 70’s. Germany and Japan, both industrial giants, had to rebuild after the war, which took years. Even Great Britain, also a leader in industry but sometimes lax on process, also had much rebuilding to do. For the model railroad industry to lead the way with the use of plastics was almost predestined to occur as instead of the war destroying industry it did much to drive it forward.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 1:24 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

John,

Looks like Japan had gotten a very early start in the electronics that they continued to become famous for not too long ago, by your mention of their 1957 transister radio.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/29/2017 10:29:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,
Your synopsis is right on. However, plastic molding in large numbers is definitely cheaper than die cast or etched brass. Which is why I said if they were molded there should have been a goodly number of them produced.
Plastic molding of product was likely not all that available in post war Japan. While they did start exporting merchandise to the US in the early 50’s I recall a lot of tin plate product. The first plastic product from Japan that I recall having was an early transistor radio that I received for Christmas around 1957.
Of course this is all memories of long ago from a guy who can’t remember where he laid his glasses 3 minutes ago.
John Hagen
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:53 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

I'm not all too sure that casting (molding) plastic was that expensive. I believe that since it was relatively inexpensive (compared to diecasting metal, or using other material such as formed sheet brass), this was the primary reason for Athearn to mold the Globe F-Unit shells and for Varney to discontinue his metal car line in favor of molded plastic car kits, albeit these did not replace the metal box cars and reefers, but were new type freight cars to include open hopper, covered hoppers and cabooses (as early as 1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas (1952), cattle cars (1953), outside-braced box cars (1954), with flat cars and ore cars (1953) and wood-sheathed reefers (1956) replacing earlier metal cars of the same type. The plastic wood-sheathed reefers were similar in design to the metal Private Owner series of six Reefers of 1954. After Sol Kramer took over in May of 1957, Kramer continued producing plastic cars to include replacements of steel-sided box cars and other newer types of freight cars for the Varney line. Others, such as Train Miniature soon was marketing car kits in molded plastic. Even Roundhouse/MDC went to plastic after being known for their quality die-cast metal freight car kits.
As we all know too, Athearn introduced plastic freight cars to replace his metal line of these cars in 1957, starting with his boxcars (#'s 101 through 106), and continued producing only plastic cars, phasing out the metal ones in 1960. When Irv first produced passenger cars in 1957, they were molded plastic, unlike Varney's metal (stamped-steel) passenger cars that came out in the Fall of 1950. For that matter, Varney later (in 1956) produced his Aerotrain in plastic. This gondola in question definitely appears (much) older than the 1980's and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned early on that plastic would be more economical to produce. That this material is scarce in Japanese kits (since we see practically none -- other than this one), they may have run into the same problem at this same time, as Varney and Globe ran into with their Tenite plastic car sides often warping, and discontinued its use early.
Ray Wetzel
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
Visit Your Group
· New Photos 6
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26377	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

In the 50's a lot of sheet metal product was made from RECYCLED BEER CANS!

And a lot of it still had the original labels on the inside.

This was especially true of toys.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 11:24 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

John,

While you can't find your glasses after three minutes, how do you expect me -- being four years older than you -- to remember any better than you < g >?   Yes, we can all agree that plastic molding in larger numbers is definitely cheaper, although some manufacturer obviously molded this plastic-sided model, and it definitely looks Japanese. That none of these early Japanese H0 manufacturers produced very large runs -- as did Athearn or Varney -- perhaps this was the reason why early Japanese plastic-sided cars were discontinued seemingly almost as fast as they were introduced -- and I still maintain this gondola is a Japanese product. While plastic molding appears to have been fairly reasonable in America, it may not necessarily have been that cheap in Japan, or maybe metal was even cheaper for them. Example; IMP used stamped aluminum sides.

While we don't know very much about this mystery gondola, let's focus on what we do know. For starters, I do tend to agree with you somewhat in that plastic molding may not have been available in post-war Japan, yet we know that Varney produced Tenite plastic gondolas in America in 1938. There's no reason to believe that plastic molding technology for model trains was not available pre-War -- and, no reason not to believe that they couldn't have copied this technology from Varney even at that early date.  IMP's (as an example) first ad in MR magazine was September 1938, indicating the time they at least started their business (if not before), so they certainly had the time to develop this method.

Now getting to what we do know about this mystery car, we know it has Baker-type couplers, with again IMP (as an example calling them "Kupeeze" couplers. This would seem to indicate that this car definitely was not produced very shortly after the War, as may have previously been believed. Using IMP yet again, they produced their first freight car kits in September 1951. Tenshodo, New One, Pacific Pike, Shinohara and others may have produced their first H0 freight car kit even before then, or possibly later; we don't really know for sure although Tenshodo was well established at least by 1954 (and most likely, earlier). It may be safe to say most if not all of these Japanese model makers were producing freight car kits approximately around the same time, give or take a few years.

Keeping the Baker-style couplers in mind, the Baker Mfg. Co. first advertised in MR in July 1947, concentrating solely on their bronze passenger engine body casting EMD E-4A (or E-6A) and aluminum passenger engine body casting EMD (E-4B (or E-6B), and their 6 wheel and 12 wheel drives -- as per HO SC&H SIG The Reporting Mark." Further, it was so stated in The Reporting Mark, that Baker was better known for their distinctive coupler in later years, and that they were still concentrating on their locomotive drives, for Tenshodo's 1000 HP Diesel Switcher in 1957, as one of several Tenshodo used. The Baker coupler was not their main product but appears to have come out shortly before IMP produced their first freight car kit (in 1951), keeping in mind that IMP included their knock-off Kupeeze couplers with these first kits. The major difference between the Baker coupler and the Japanese copies apparently was that the Baker coupler's hook was spring operated, as per HO SC&H. So, this mystery gondola can't be too much older than 1951 or there abouts, and yes, it could be newer. By this time, the Japanese model makers could very well have developed plastic molding. Doesn't tell us too much more about this gondola, but it seems to be narrowed down a bit to the period it was produced.

Looks like Japan had gotten a very early start in the electronics that they continued to become famous for not too long ago, by your mention of their 1957 transister radio.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/29/2017 10:29:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Your synopsis is right on. However, plastic molding in large numbers is definitely cheaper than die cast or etched brass. Which is why I said if they were molded there should have been a goodly number of them produced.

Plastic molding of product was likely not all that available in post war Japan. While they did start exporting merchandise to the US in the early 50’s I recall a lot of tin plate product. The first plastic product from Japan that I recall having was an early transistor radio that I received for Christmas around 1957.

Of course this is all memories of long ago from a guy who can’t remember where he laid his glasses 3 minutes ago.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:53 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

I'm not all too sure that casting (molding) plastic was that expensive. I believe that since it was relatively inexpensive (compared to diecasting metal, or using other material such as formed sheet brass), this was the primary reason for Athearn to mold the Globe F-Unit shells and for Varney to discontinue his metal car line in favor of molded plastic car kits, albeit these did not replace the metal box cars and reefers, but were new type freight cars to include open hopper, covered hoppers and cabooses (as early as 1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas (1952), cattle cars (1953), outside-braced box cars (1954), with flat cars and ore cars (1953) and wood-sheathed reefers (1956) replacing earlier metal cars of the same type. The plastic wood-sheathed reefers were similar in design to the metal Private Owner series of six Reefers of 1954. After Sol Kramer took over in May of 1957, Kramer continued producing plastic cars to include replacements of steel-sided box cars and other newer types of freight cars for the Varney line. Others, such as Train Miniature soon was marketing car kits in molded plastic. Even Roundhouse/MDC went to plastic after being known for their quality die-cast metal freight car kits.

As we all know too, Athearn introduced plastic freight cars to replace his metal line of these cars in 1957, starting with his boxcars (#'s 101 through 106), and continued producing only plastic cars, phasing out the metal ones in 1960. When Irv first produced passenger cars in 1957, they were molded plastic, unlike Varney's metal (stamped-steel) passenger cars that came out in the Fall of 1950. For that matter, Varney later (in 1956) produced his Aerotrain in plastic. This gondola in question definitely appears (much) older than the 1980's and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned early on that plastic would be more economical to produce. That this material is scarce in Japanese kits (since we see practically none -- other than this one), they may have run into the same problem at this same time, as Varney and Globe ran into with their Tenite plastic car sides often warping, and discontinued its use early.

Ray Wetzel

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

·         New Photos 6

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26378	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Remember the early Globe passenger cars were made from sides, ends, floors, and roofs.

Unlike the later Athearn cars the were just complete bodies and roofs.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 11:38 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

The actual casting process and material costs for plastics are much cheaper than other materials.

Where the cost in plastc injection moldng was not the unit cost, it's the TOOLING. The cost for the dies alone to produce an HO locomotive these days can be in five or six figures. If you're only going to produce a thousand models, that cost has to amortized over how many in the production run.

That's where the resin kits showed their strength. They could be made from relatively inexpensive flat molds. That's also why many of the early plastic models were cars that were originally made in metal, since many of the diecast molds could be used for plastic molding with relatively little modification.

Don

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 6/29/17, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 29, 2017, 8:52 AM

I'm not all too sure that
casting (molding) plastic was
that expensive. I believe that since it was relatively
inexpensive
(compared to diecasting metal, or using other material such
as formed sheet
brass), this was the primary reason for Athearn to mold the
Globe F-Unit shells
and for Varney to discontinue his metal car line in favor of
molded plastic car
kits, albeit these did not replace the metal box cars and
reefers, but were
new type freight cars to include open hopper, covered
hoppers and
cabooses (as early as 1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas
(1952), cattle
cars (1953), outside-braced box cars (1954), with flat cars
and ore cars
(1953) and wood-sheathed reefers (1956) replacing earlier
metal cars of the same
type. The plastic wood-sheathed reefers were similar in
design to the
metal Private Owner series of six Reefers of 1954. After
Sol Kramer took
over in May of 1957, Kramer continued producing plastic cars
to include
replacements of steel-sided box cars and other newer types
of freight cars for
the Varney line. Others, such as Train Miniature soon was
marketing car
kits in molded plastic. Even Roundhouse/MDC went to
plastic after being
known for their quality die-cast metal freight car kits.

As we all know too, Athearn
introduced plastic freight
cars to replace his metal line of these cars in 1957,
starting with his boxcars
(#'s 101 through 106), and continued producing only
plastic cars, phasing out
the metal ones in 1960. When Irv first produced passenger
cars in 1957,
they were molded plastic, unlike Varney's metal
(stamped-steel) passenger cars that came out in the Fall of
1950. For
that matter, Varney later (in 1956) produced his Aerotrain
in plastic.
This gondola in question definitely appears (much) older
than the 1980's
and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned early on
that plastic would be
more economical to produce. That this material is scarce
in Japanese kits
(since we see practically none -- other than this one), they
may have run into
the same problem at this same time, as Varney and Globe ran
into with their
Tenite plastic car sides often warping, and discontinued its
use
early.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/28/2017 10:14:04 P.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Well,
The added
photo does prove that the car is a gondola but little
else.
And plastic
that is flexible would seem to eliminate
Bakelite.
Well, this
continues to be elusive to me. Guess I’m just too darn
young to remember who
made it. That’s what happens when a 74 year old kid
tries to remember this
sort of thing.
Assuming this
is older than, say, the 1980’s when resin casting became
practical, casting
plastic was a somewhat expensive venture. It would seem
there should have been
a large enough number of these kits to be recognized by
someone.

Considering
the trucks and couplers it would almost have to have been
made in 50’s or very
early 60’s.
Oh well,
makes for a bit of excitement here.
John
Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2017
7:06 PM
To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re:
[vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker? [1
Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from
nvrr49@...
[vintageHO] included
below]
Here is a picture of the end of the box. The box is
just less than 1"
tall. The plastic sides and ends, to me, don't seem
like bakelite, as
they are dull, and somewhat flexible. Let me know if you
would like some
other pictures or information (not that I have much).

Kent Hurley

nvrr49.blogspot.com (a
model railroad
blog)

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928 --
#yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp #yiv8474777928hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp #yiv8474777928ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp .yiv8474777928ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp .yiv8474777928ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mkp .yiv8474777928ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8474777928ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8474777928ygrp-lc #yiv8474777928hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8474777928ygrp-lc .yiv8474777928ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928activity span
.yiv8474777928underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 dd.yiv8474777928last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 dd.yiv8474777928last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 dd.yiv8474777928last p
span.yiv8474777928yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928file-title a, #yiv8474777928
div.yiv8474777928file-title a:active, #yiv8474777928
div.yiv8474777928file-title a:hover, #yiv8474777928
div.yiv8474777928file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928photo-title a,
#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928photo-title a:active,
#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8474777928 div.yiv8474777928photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 div#yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8474777928ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8474777928yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8474777928 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8474777928 .yiv8474777928replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8474777928 input, #yiv8474777928 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8474777928
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8474777928logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-msg
p#yiv8474777928attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-reco
#yiv8474777928reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor #yiv8474777928ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor #yiv8474777928ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-sponsor #yiv8474777928ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8474777928 #yiv8474777928ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8474777928

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26379	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Believe it or not, even in 1970 you could buy a Toyota with stamped beer can parts (my boss, who ironically owned a liquor store) had one, yes you COULD read the lables on the partition between the back seat and the trunk.

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 6/29/17, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, June 29, 2017, 7:03 PM

In the 50's a lot of sheet metal
product was made from RECYCLED BEER CANS!

And a lot of it still had the original
labels on the inside.

This was especially true of
toys.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From:

eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June
29, 2017 11:24 AM
Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

John,

While you can't find
your glasses after three minutes, how do you expect me --
being four years older than you -- to remember any better
than you < g >?   Yes, we can all agree that plastic
molding in larger numbers is definitely
cheaper, although some manufacturer obviously molded this
plastic-sided model, and it definitely looks Japanese.
That none of these early Japanese H0 manufacturers produced
very large runs -- as did Athearn or Varney -- perhaps this
was the reason why early
Japanese plastic-sided cars were discontinued seemingly
almost as fast as they were introduced -- and I still
maintain this gondola is a Japanese product. While plastic
molding appears to have been fairly reasonable in America,
it may not necessarily have
been that cheap in Japan, or maybe metal was even cheaper
for them. Example; IMP used stamped aluminum
sides.

While we don't know
very much about this mystery gondola, let's focus on
what we do know. For starters, I do tend to agree with you
somewhat in that plastic molding may not have been available
in post-war Japan, yet we know
that Varney produced Tenite plastic gondolas in America in
1938. There's no reason to believe that plastic
molding technology for model trains was not available
pre-War -- and, no reason not to believe that they
couldn't have copied this technology from Varney
even at that early date.  IMP's (as an example) first
ad in MR magazine was September 1938, indicating the time
they at least started their business (if not before), so
they certainly had the time to develop this
method.

Now getting to what we
do know about this mystery car, we know it has Baker-type
couplers, with again IMP (as an example calling them
"Kupeeze" couplers. This would seem to indicate
that this car definitely was not produced very
shortly after the War, as may have previously been
believed. Using IMP yet again, they produced their first
freight car kits in September 1951. Tenshodo, New One,
Pacific Pike, Shinohara and others may have produced their
first H0 freight car kit even before
then, or possibly later; we don't really know for sure
although Tenshodo was well established at least by 1954
(and most likely, earlier). It may be safe to say most if
not all of these Japanese model makers were producing
freight car kits approximately around
the same time, give or take a few years.

Keeping the Baker-style
couplers in mind, the Baker Mfg. Co. first advertised in MR
in July 1947, concentrating solely on their bronze passenger
engine body casting EMD E-4A (or E-6A) and aluminum
passenger engine body casting
EMD (E-4B (or E-6B), and their 6 wheel and 12 wheel drives
-- as per HO SC&H SIG
The Reporting Mark." Further, it was so
stated in The Reporting Mark, that Baker was
better known for their distinctive coupler in later years,
and that they were still concentrating on their locomotive
drives, for Tenshodo's 1000 HP Diesel
Switcher in 1957, as one of several Tenshodo used. The
Baker coupler was not their main product but appears to have
come out shortly before IMP produced their first freight car
kit (in 1951), keeping in mind that IMP included their
knock-off Kupeeze couplers
with these first kits. The major difference between the
Baker coupler and the Japanese copies apparently was that
the Baker coupler's hook was spring operated, as per HO
SC&H. So, this mystery gondola can't be too
much older than 1951 or there abouts, and
yes, it could be newer. By this time, the Japanese model
makers could very well have developed plastic molding.
Doesn't tell us too much more about this gondola, but it
seems to be narrowed down a bit to the period it was
produced.

Looks like Japan had
gotten a very early start in the electronics that they
continued to become famous for not too long ago, by your
mention of their 1957 transister radio.

Ray
Wetzel

In a message dated 6/29/2017 10:29:57 A.M. Eastern
Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,
Your synopsis is right
on. However, plastic molding in large numbers is definitely
cheaper than die cast or etched brass. Which is why I said
if they were molded there should have been a goodly
number of them produced.
Plastic molding of
product was likely not all that available in post war Japan.
While they did start exporting merchandise to the US in the
early 50’s I recall a lot of tin plate product. The
first plastic product from Japan that I recall having was
an early transistor radio that I received for Christmas
around 1957.
Of course this is all
memories of long ago from a guy who can’t remember where
he laid his glasses 3 minutes ago.
John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:53 AM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the
maker?

I'm not all too sure
that casting (molding) plastic was that expensive. I
believe that since it was relatively inexpensive (compared
to diecasting metal, or using other material such as formed
sheet brass), this was the primary reason for Athearn to
mold the Globe F-Unit shells and for Varney to discontinue
his metal car line in favor of molded plastic car kits,
albeit these did not replace the metal box cars and
reefers, but were new type freight
cars to include open hopper, covered hoppers and cabooses
(as early as 1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas (1952),
cattle cars (1953), outside-braced box cars (1954),
with flat cars and ore cars (1953) and wood-sheathed
reefers (1956) replacing earlier metal
cars of the same type. The plastic wood-sheathed reefers
were similar in design to the metal Private Owner series of
six Reefers of 1954. After Sol Kramer took over in May of
1957, Kramer continued producing plastic cars to include
replacements of steel-sided
box cars and other newer types of freight cars for the
Varney line. Others, such as Train Miniature soon was
marketing car kits in molded plastic. Even Roundhouse/MDC
went to plastic after being known for their quality die-cast
metal freight car kits.

As we all know too,
Athearn introduced plastic freight cars to replace his metal
line of these cars in 1957, starting with his boxcars
(#'s 101 through 106), and continued producing only
plastic
cars, phasing out the metal ones in 1960. When Irv first
produced passenger cars in 1957, they were molded
plastic, unlike Varney's metal
(stamped-steel) passenger cars that came out in the Fall of
1950. For that matter, Varney later (in 1956) produced his
Aerotrain in plastic. This gondola in
question definitely appears (much) older than the
1980's and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned
early on that plastic would be more economical to produce.
That this material is scarce in Japanese kits (since
we see practically none -- other than this one), they may
have run into the same problem at this same time, as Varney
and Globe ran into with their Tenite plastic car sides often
warping, and discontinued its use early.

Ray Wetzel

Have you
tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the
Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market.
What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your
inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never
delete
an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit
Your Group

·
New
Photos
6

•
Privacy •

Unsubscribe
•
Terms of Use

.

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319 --
#yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp #yiv0800373319hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp #yiv0800373319ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp .yiv0800373319ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp .yiv0800373319ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp .yiv0800373319ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0800373319ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0800373319ygrp-lc #yiv0800373319hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0800373319ygrp-lc .yiv0800373319ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span
.yiv0800373319underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 dd.yiv0800373319last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 dd.yiv0800373319last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 dd.yiv0800373319last p
span.yiv0800373319yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319file-title a, #yiv0800373319
div.yiv0800373319file-title a:active, #yiv0800373319
div.yiv0800373319file-title a:hover, #yiv0800373319
div.yiv0800373319file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319photo-title a,
#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319photo-title a:active,
#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 div#yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0800373319ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0800373319yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0800373319 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0800373319 input, #yiv0800373319 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0800373319
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0800373319logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-msg
p#yiv0800373319attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-reco
#yiv0800373319reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor #yiv0800373319ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor #yiv0800373319ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor #yiv0800373319ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0800373319

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26380	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Talk about RECYCLING . . .

Ray W.

In a message dated 6/29/2017 8:49:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Believe it or not, even in 1970 you could buy a Toyota with stamped beer can parts (my boss, who ironically owned a liquor store) had one, yes you COULD read the lables on the partition between the back seat and the trunk.

Don

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 6/29/17, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, June 29, 2017, 7:03 PM

In the 50's a lot of sheet metal
product was made from RECYCLED BEER CANS!

And a lot of it still had the original
labels on the inside.

This was especially true of
toys.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From:

eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June
29, 2017 11:24 AM
Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

John,

While you can't find
your glasses after three minutes, how do you expect me --
being four years older than you -- to remember any better
than you < g >?   Yes, we can all agree that plastic
molding in larger numbers is definitely
cheaper, although some manufacturer obviously molded this
plastic-sided model, and it definitely looks Japanese.
That none of these early Japanese H0 manufacturers produced
very large runs -- as did Athearn or Varney -- perhaps this
was the reason why early
Japanese plastic-sided cars were discontinued seemingly
almost as fast as they were introduced -- and I still
maintain this gondola is a Japanese product. While plastic
molding appears to have been fairly reasonable in America,
it may not necessarily have
been that cheap in Japan, or maybe metal was even cheaper
for them. Example; IMP used stamped aluminum
sides.

While we don't know
very much about this mystery gondola, let's focus on
what we do know. For starters, I do tend to agree with you
somewhat in that plastic molding may not have been available
in post-war Japan, yet we know
that Varney produced Tenite plastic gondolas in America in
1938. There's no reason to believe that plastic
molding technology for model trains was not available
pre-War -- and, no reason not to believe that they
couldn't have copied this technology from Varney
even at that early date.  IMP's (as an example) first
ad in MR magazine was September 1938, indicating the time
they at least started their business (if not before), so
they certainly had the time to develop this
method.

Now getting to what we
do know about this mystery car, we know it has Baker-type
couplers, with again IMP (as an example calling them
"Kupeeze" couplers. This would seem to indicate
that this car definitely was not produced very
shortly after the War, as may have previously been
believed. Using IMP yet again, they produced their first
freight car kits in September 1951. Tenshodo, New One,
Pacific Pike, Shinohara and others may have produced their
first H0 freight car kit even before
then, or possibly later; we don't really know for sure
although Tenshodo was well established at least by 1954
(and most likely, earlier). It may be safe to say most if
not all of these Japanese model makers were producing
freight car kits approximately around
the same time, give or take a few years.

Keeping the Baker-style
couplers in mind, the Baker Mfg. Co. first advertised in MR
in July 1947, concentrating solely on their bronze passenger
engine body casting EMD E-4A (or E-6A) and aluminum
passenger engine body casting
EMD (E-4B (or E-6B), and their 6 wheel and 12 wheel drives
-- as per HO SC&H SIG
The Reporting Mark." Further, it was so
stated in The Reporting Mark, that Baker was
better known for their distinctive coupler in later years,
and that they were still concentrating on their locomotive
drives, for Tenshodo's 1000 HP Diesel
Switcher in 1957, as one of several Tenshodo used. The
Baker coupler was not their main product but appears to have
come out shortly before IMP produced their first freight car
kit (in 1951), keeping in mind that IMP included their
knock-off Kupeeze couplers
with these first kits. The major difference between the
Baker coupler and the Japanese copies apparently was that
the Baker coupler's hook was spring operated, as per HO
SC&H. So, this mystery gondola can't be too
much older than 1951 or there abouts, and
yes, it could be newer. By this time, the Japanese model
makers could very well have developed plastic molding.
Doesn't tell us too much more about this gondola, but it
seems to be narrowed down a bit to the period it was
produced.

Looks like Japan had
gotten a very early start in the electronics that they
continued to become famous for not too long ago, by your
mention of their 1957 transister radio.

Ray
Wetzel

In a message dated 6/29/2017 10:29:57 A.M. Eastern
Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,
Your synopsis is right
on. However, plastic molding in large numbers is definitely
cheaper than die cast or etched brass. Which is why I said
if they were molded there should have been a goodly
number of them produced.
Plastic molding of
product was likely not all that available in post war Japan.
While they did start exporting merchandise to the US in the
early 50’s I recall a lot of tin plate product. The
first plastic product from Japan that I recall having was
an early transistor radio that I received for Christmas
around 1957.
Of course this is all
memories of long ago from a guy who can’t remember where
he laid his glasses 3 minutes ago.
John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:53 AM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the
maker?

I'm not all too sure
that casting (molding) plastic was that expensive. I
believe that since it was relatively inexpensive (compared
to diecasting metal, or using other material such as formed
sheet brass), this was the primary reason for Athearn to
mold the Globe F-Unit shells and for Varney to discontinue
his metal car line in favor of molded plastic car kits,
albeit these did not replace the metal box cars and
reefers, but were new type freight
cars to include open hopper, covered hoppers and cabooses
(as early as 1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas (1952),
cattle cars (1953), outside-braced box cars (1954),
with flat cars and ore cars (1953) and wood-sheathed
reefers (1956) replacing earlier metal
cars of the same type. The plastic wood-sheathed reefers
were similar in design to the metal Private Owner series of
six Reefers of 1954. After Sol Kramer took over in May of
1957, Kramer continued producing plastic cars to include
replacements of steel-sided
box cars and other newer types of freight cars for the
Varney line. Others, such as Train Miniature soon was
marketing car kits in molded plastic. Even Roundhouse/MDC
went to plastic after being known for their quality die-cast
metal freight car kits.

As we all know too,
Athearn introduced plastic freight cars to replace his metal
line of these cars in 1957, starting with his boxcars
(#'s 101 through 106), and continued producing only
plastic
cars, phasing out the metal ones in 1960. When Irv first
produced passenger cars in 1957, they were molded
plastic, unlike Varney's metal
(stamped-steel) passenger cars that came out in the Fall of
1950. For that matter, Varney later (in 1956) produced his
Aerotrain in plastic. This gondola in
question definitely appears (much) older than the
1980's and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned
early on that plastic would be more economical to produce.
That this material is scarce in Japanese kits (since
we see practically none -- other than this one), they may
have run into the same problem at this same time, as Varney
and Globe ran into with their Tenite plastic car sides often
warping, and discontinued its use early.

Ray Wetzel

Have you
tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the
Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market.
What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your
inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never
delete
an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit
Your Group

·
New
Photos
6

•
Privacy •

Unsubscribe
•
Terms of Use

.

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319 --
#yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp #yiv0800373319hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp #yiv0800373319ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp .yiv0800373319ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp .yiv0800373319ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mkp .yiv0800373319ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0800373319ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0800373319ygrp-lc #yiv0800373319hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0800373319ygrp-lc .yiv0800373319ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319activity span
.yiv0800373319underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 dd.yiv0800373319last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 dd.yiv0800373319last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 dd.yiv0800373319last p
span.yiv0800373319yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319file-title a, #yiv0800373319
div.yiv0800373319file-title a:active, #yiv0800373319
div.yiv0800373319file-title a:hover, #yiv0800373319
div.yiv0800373319file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319photo-title a,
#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319photo-title a:active,
#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0800373319 div.yiv0800373319photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 div#yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0800373319ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0800373319yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0800373319 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0800373319 .yiv0800373319replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0800373319 input, #yiv0800373319 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0800373319
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0800373319logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-msg
p#yiv0800373319attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-reco
#yiv0800373319reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor #yiv0800373319ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor #yiv0800373319ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-sponsor #yiv0800373319ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0800373319 #yiv0800373319ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0800373319

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26381	From: Doug Harris	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

On 30/06/2017 13:03, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote> Talk about
RECYCLING . . . > Ray W.

It's an old trick..

I have some prewar Whitanco O-gauge tunnels where previous tin printing
can be seen on the inside.

It was surely a way to use up reject or surplus tin printing.

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26382	From: roger_aultman	Date: 6/29/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Attachments :

WALTHERS GONDOLA 001.JPG

--
Walthers made a gon in a plastic flat kit version that appeared to use some ones floor to complete it. There was a sales slip dated 1981. There also is a casting set of sides and ends in soft metal that appears to use the same molds. I am aware that this is not what you have but mention it for possible interest. Roger Aultman

-- "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

John,

While you can't find your glasses after three minutes, how do you expect
me -- being four years older than you -- to remember any better than you < g

>? Yes, we can all agree that plastic molding in larger numbers is

definitely cheaper, although some manufacturer obviously molded this
plastic-sided model, and it definitely looks Japanese. That none of these early
Japanese H0 manufacturers produced very large runs -- as did Athearn or Varney
-- perhaps this was the reason why early Japanese plastic-sided cars were
discontinued seemingly almost as fast as they were introduced -- and I still
maintain this gondola is a Japanese product. While plastic molding appears
to have been fairly reasonable in America, it may not necessarily have
been that cheap in Japan, or maybe metal was even cheaper for them. Example;
IMP used stamped aluminum sides.

While we don't know very much about this mystery gondola, let's focus on
what we do know. For starters, I do tend to agree with you somewhat in that
plastic molding may not have been available in post-war Japan, yet we know
that Varney produced Tenite plastic gondolas in America in 1938. There's
no reason to believe that plastic molding technology for model trains was
not available pre-War -- and, no reason not to believe that they couldn't
have copied this technology from Varney even at that early date. IMP's (as
an example) first ad in MR magazine was September 1938, indicating the time
they at least started their business (if not before), so they certainly had
the time to develop this method.

Now getting to what we do know about this mystery car, we know it has
Baker-type couplers, with again IMP (as an example calling them "Kupeeze"
couplers. This would seem to indicate that this car definitely was not produced
very shortly after the War, as may have previously been believed. Using
IMP yet again, they produced their first freight car kits in September 1951.
Tenshodo, New One, Pacific Pike, Shinohara and others may have produced
their first H0 freight car kit even before then, or possibly later; we don't
really know for sure although Tenshodo was well established at least by
1954 (and most likely, earlier). It may be safe to say most if not all of
these Japanese model makers were producing freight car kits approximately
around the same time, give or take a few years.

Keeping the Baker-style couplers in mind, the Baker Mfg. Co. first
advertised in MR in July 1947, concentrating solely on their bronze passenger
engine body casting EMD E-4A (or E-6A) and aluminum passenger engine body
casting EMD (E-4B (or E-6B), and their 6 wheel and 12 wheel drives -- as per HO
SC&H SIG The Reporting Mark." Further, it was so stated in The Reporting
Mark, that Baker was better known for their distinctive coupler in later
years, and that they were still concentrating on their locomotive drives, for
Tenshodo's 1000 HP Diesel Switcher in 1957, as one of several Tenshodo
used. The Baker coupler was not their main product but appears to have come
out shortly before IMP produced their first freight car kit (in 1951),
keeping in mind that IMP included their knock-off Kupeeze couplers with these
first kits. The major difference between the Baker coupler and the Japanese
copies apparently was that the Baker coupler's hook was spring operated, as
per HO SC&H. So, this mystery gondola can't be too much older than 1951 or
there abouts, and yes, it could be newer. By this time, the Japanese
model makers could very well have developed plastic molding. Doesn't tell us
too much more about this gondola, but it seems to be narrowed down a bit to
the period it was produced.

Looks like Japan had gotten a very early start in the electronics that
they continued to become famous for not too long ago, by your mention of their
1957 transister radio.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/29/2017 10:29:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,
Your synopsis is right on. However, plastic molding in large numbers is
definitely cheaper than die cast or etched brass. Which is why I said if
they were molded there should have been a goodly number of them produced.
Plastic molding of product was likely not all that available in post war
Japan. While they did start exporting merchandise to the US in the early 50’
s I recall a lot of tin plate product. The first plastic product from Japan
that I recall having was an early transistor radio that I received for
Christmas around 1957.
Of course this is all memories of long ago from a guy who can’t remember
where he laid his glasses 3 minutes ago.
John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:53 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

I'm not all too sure that casting (molding) plastic was that expensive. I
believe that since it was relatively inexpensive (compared to diecasting
metal, or using other material such as formed sheet brass), this was the
primary reason for Athearn to mold the Globe F-Unit shells and for Varney to
discontinue his metal car line in favor of molded plastic car kits, albeit
these did not replace the metal box cars and reefers, but were new type
freight cars to include open hopper, covered hoppers and cabooses (as early as
1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas (1952), cattle cars (1953),
outside-braced box cars (1954), with flat cars and ore cars (1953) and wood-sheathed
reefers (1956) replacing earlier metal cars of the same type. The plastic
wood-sheathed reefers were similar in design to the metal Private Owner
series of six Reefers of 1954. After Sol Kramer took over in May of 1957,
Kramer continued producing plastic cars to include replacements of steel-sided
box cars and other newer types of freight cars for the Varney line.
Others, such as Train Miniature soon was marketing car kits in molded plastic.
Even Roundhouse/MDC went to plastic after being known for their quality
die-cast metal freight car kits.

As we all know too, Athearn introduced plastic freight cars to replace his
metal line of these cars in 1957, starting with his boxcars (#'s 101
through 106), and continued producing only plastic cars, phasing out the metal
ones in 1960. When Irv first produced passenger cars in 1957, they were
molded plastic, unlike Varney's metal (stamped-steel) passenger cars that
came out in the Fall of 1950. For that matter, Varney later (in 1956)
produced his Aerotrain in plastic. This gondola in question definitely appears
(much) older than the 1980's and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned
early on that plastic would be more economical to produce. That this
material is scarce in Japanese kits (since we see practically none -- other than
this one), they may have run into the same problem at this same time, as
Varney and Globe ran into with their Tenite plastic car sides often warping,
and discontinued its use early.

Ray Wetzel

_Have you tried the highest rated email app?_ (https://yho.com/1wwmgg)

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email
app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your
inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email
again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

____________________________________

_Visit Your Group_
(https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNmw1YnRlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAx
NARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE0OTg3NDQzODI-)

· _New Photos_
(https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/photostream;_ylc=X3oDMTJnbmNrOWVoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdyc
HNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2cGhvdARzdGltZQMxNDk4NzQ0Mzgy) 6

(https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaW9vaWxlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTQ5ODc0
NDM4Mg--)

• _Privacy_ (https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html) •
_Unsubscribe_
(mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe) • _Terms of Use_ (https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/)

.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26383	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 6/30/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

> Walthers made a gon in a plastic flat kit version that appeared to use some ones floor to complete it. There was a sales slip dated 1981. There also is a casting set of sides and ends in soft metal that appears to use the same molds. I am aware that this is not what you have but mention it for possible interest. Roger Aultman

The Wlathers gon used an Athearn underframe.

Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26384	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/30/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

The soft metal sides and ends sounds like Red Ball/Wabash Valley. Now if we could only find out who they bought these molds from we could get on to something.

Ray W.

In a message dated 6/29/2017 9:42:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

--
Walthers made a gon in a plastic flat kit version that appeared to use some ones floor to complete it. There was a sales slip dated 1981. There also is a casting set of sides and ends in soft metal that appears to use the same molds. I am aware that this is not what you have but mention it for possible interest. Roger Aultman

-- "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

John,

While you can't find your glasses after three minutes, how do you expect
me -- being four years older than you -- to remember any better than you < g
>? Yes, we can all agree that plastic molding in larger numbers is
definitely cheaper, although some manufacturer obviously molded this
plastic-sided model, and it definitely looks Japanese. That none of these early
Japanese H0 manufacturers produced very large runs -- as did Athearn or Varney
-- perhaps this was the reason why early Japanese plastic-sided cars were
discontinued seemingly almost as fast as they were introduced -- and I still
maintain this gondola is a Japanese product. While plastic molding appears
to have been fairly reasonable in America, it may not necessarily have
been that cheap in Japan, or maybe metal was even cheaper for them. Example;
IMP used stamped aluminum sides.

While we don't know very much about this mystery gondola, let's focus on
what we do know. For starters, I do tend to agree with you somewhat in that
plastic molding may not have been available in post-war Japan, yet we know
that Varney produced Tenite plastic gondolas in America in 1938. There's
no reason to believe that plastic molding technology for model trains was
not available pre-War -- and, no reason not to believe that they couldn't
have copied this technology from Varney even at that early date. IMP's (as
an example) first ad in MR magazine was September 1938, indicating the time
they at least started their business (if not before), so they certainly had
the time to develop this method.

Now getting to what we do know about this mystery car, we know it has
Baker-type couplers, with again IMP (as an example calling them "Kupeeze"
couplers. This would seem to indicate that this car definitely was not produced
very shortly after the War, as may have previously been believed. Using
IMP yet again, they produced their first freight car kits in September 1951.
Tenshodo, New One, Pacific Pike, Shinohara and others may have produced
their first H0 freight car kit even before then, or possibly later; we don't
really know for sure although Tenshodo was well established at least by
1954 (and most likely, earlier). It may be safe to say most if not all of
these Japanese model makers were producing freight car kits approximately
around the same time, give or take a few years.

Keeping the Baker-style couplers in mind, the Baker Mfg. Co. first
advertised in MR in July 1947, concentrating solely on their bronze passenger
engine body casting EMD E-4A (or E-6A) and aluminum passenger engine body
casting EMD (E-4B (or E-6B), and their 6 wheel and 12 wheel drives -- as per HO
SC&H SIG The Reporting Mark." Further, it was so stated in The Reporting
Mark, that Baker was better known for their distinctive coupler in later
years, and that they were still concentrating on their locomotive drives, for
Tenshodo's 1000 HP Diesel Switcher in 1957, as one of several Tenshodo
used. The Baker coupler was not their main product but appears to have come
out shortly before IMP produced their first freight car kit (in 1951),
keeping in mind that IMP included their knock-off Kupeeze couplers with these
first kits. The major difference between the Baker coupler and the Japanese
copies apparently was that the Baker coupler's hook was spring operated, as
per HO SC&H. So, this mystery gondola can't be too much older than 1951 or
there abouts, and yes, it could be newer. By this time, the Japanese
model makers could very well have developed plastic molding. Doesn't tell us
too much more about this gondola, but it seems to be narrowed down a bit to
the period it was produced.

Looks like Japan had gotten a very early start in the electronics that
they continued to become famous for not too long ago, by your mention of their
1957 transister radio.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/29/2017 10:29:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,
Your synopsis is right on. However, plastic molding in large numbers is
definitely cheaper than die cast or etched brass. Which is why I said if
they were molded there should have been a goodly number of them produced.
Plastic molding of product was likely not all that available in post war
Japan. While they did start exporting merchandise to the US in the early 50’
s I recall a lot of tin plate product. The first plastic product from Japan
that I recall having was an early transistor radio that I received for
Christmas around 1957.
Of course this is all memories of long ago from a guy who can’t remember
where he laid his glasses 3 minutes ago.
John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 8:53 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any idea as to the maker?

I'm not all too sure that casting (molding) plastic was that expensive. I
believe that since it was relatively inexpensive (compared to diecasting
metal, or using other material such as formed sheet brass), this was the
primary reason for Athearn to mold the Globe F-Unit shells and for Varney to
discontinue his metal car line in favor of molded plastic car kits, albeit
these did not replace the metal box cars and reefers, but were new type
freight cars to include open hopper, covered hoppers and cabooses (as early as
1950), tank cars (1951), gondolas (1952), cattle cars (1953),
outside-braced box cars (1954), with flat cars and ore cars (1953) and wood-sheathed
reefers (1956) replacing earlier metal cars of the same type. The plastic
wood-sheathed reefers were similar in design to the metal Private Owner
series of six Reefers of 1954. After Sol Kramer took over in May of 1957,
Kramer continued producing plastic cars to include replacements of steel-sided
box cars and other newer types of freight cars for the Varney line.
Others, such as Train Miniature soon was marketing car kits in molded plastic.
Even Roundhouse/MDC went to plastic after being known for their quality
die-cast metal freight car kits.

As we all know too, Athearn introduced plastic freight cars to replace his
metal line of these cars in 1957, starting with his boxcars (#'s 101
through 106), and continued producing only plastic cars, phasing out the metal
ones in 1960. When Irv first produced passenger cars in 1957, they were
molded plastic, unlike Varney's metal (stamped-steel) passenger cars that
came out in the Fall of 1950. For that matter, Varney later (in 1956)
produced his Aerotrain in plastic. This gondola in question definitely appears
(much) older than the 1980's and perhaps some Japanese manufacturers learned
early on that plastic would be more economical to produce. That this
material is scarce in Japanese kits (since we see practically none -- other than
this one), they may have run into the same problem at this same time, as
Varney and Globe ran into with their Tenite plastic car sides often warping,
and discontinued its use early.

Ray Wetzel

_Have you tried the highest rated email app?_ (https://yho.com/1wwmgg)

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email
app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your
inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email
again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

____________________________________

_Visit Your Group_
(https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNmw1YnRlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAx
NARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE0OTg3NDQzODI-)

· _New Photos_
(https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/photostream;_ylc=X3oDMTJnbmNrOWVoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdyc
HNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2cGhvdARzdGltZQMxNDk4NzQ0Mzgy) 6

(https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaW9vaWxlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTQ5ODc0
NDM4Mg--)

• _Privacy_ (https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html) •
_Unsubscribe_
(mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe) • _Terms of Use_ (https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/)

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26385	From: nvrr49	Date: 6/30/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

It has plastic sides and ends

Kent in KC

nvrr49.blogspot.com

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote :

The soft metal sides and ends sounds like Red Ball/Wabash Valley. Now if we could only find out who they bought these molds from we could get on to something.

Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26386	From: nvrr49	Date: 6/30/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker? [1 Attachment]

You are talking about the Walthers kit, not the one that started this thread...I get it/

Kent in KC

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote :

The soft metal sides and ends sounds like Red Ball/Wabash Valley. Now if we could only find out who they bought these molds from we could get on to something.

Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26387	From: nvrr49	Date: 6/30/2017
Subject: Glue for the unknown gondola kit.

I believe I am going to use Epoxy. It just seems like I can't go wrong with Epoxy. I am just trying to decide whether to use 5-minute or J.B. Weld.

Any other suggestions?

Kent in KC

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26388	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/30/2017
Subject: Re: Glue for the unknown gondola kit.

JB weld is probably stronger. They do have a 5 minute version.

Don
--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 6/30/17, nvrr49@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Glue for the unknown gondola kit.
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 30, 2017, 7:04 PM

I believe I am going to use Epoxy.
It just seems like I can't go wrong with Epoxy. I am
just trying to decide whether to use 5-minute or J.B. Weld.

Any other
suggestions?
Kent in
KCnvrr49.blogspot.com

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106 --
#yiv0959025106ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mkp #yiv0959025106hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mkp #yiv0959025106ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mkp .yiv0959025106ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mkp .yiv0959025106ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mkp .yiv0959025106ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0959025106ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0959025106ygrp-lc #yiv0959025106hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0959025106ygrp-lc .yiv0959025106ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106activity span
.yiv0959025106underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0959025106 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0959025106 dd.yiv0959025106last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0959025106 dd.yiv0959025106last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0959025106 dd.yiv0959025106last p
span.yiv0959025106yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0959025106 div.yiv0959025106attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0959025106 div.yiv0959025106attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0959025106 div.yiv0959025106file-title a, #yiv0959025106
div.yiv0959025106file-title a:active, #yiv0959025106
div.yiv0959025106file-title a:hover, #yiv0959025106
div.yiv0959025106file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0959025106 div.yiv0959025106photo-title a,
#yiv0959025106 div.yiv0959025106photo-title a:active,
#yiv0959025106 div.yiv0959025106photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0959025106 div.yiv0959025106photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0959025106 div#yiv0959025106ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0959025106ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0959025106yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0959025106 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0959025106 .yiv0959025106replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0959025106 input, #yiv0959025106 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0959025106
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0959025106logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-msg
p#yiv0959025106attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-reco
#yiv0959025106reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-sponsor #yiv0959025106ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-sponsor #yiv0959025106ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-sponsor #yiv0959025106ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0959025106 #yiv0959025106ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0959025106

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26389	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/1/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Kent,

Yes, We all knew from the beginning that your gondola has (hard) plastic sides and ends. I'm not sure why you thought I was referring to your kit here, but can only think that you opened my post before opening Roger Aultman's post. Even then, as I was replying to Roger's message, if you had scrolled down you should have seen his message under mine. No problem but while I'm not referring to the Walthers gon ("Walthers made a gon in a plastic flat kit version") that Roger describes either, I am referring to the part of his message where he stated; "There also is a casting set of sides and ends in soft metal that appears to use the same molds." Red Ball (and Wabash Valley) is the only H0 manufacturer I can think of, besides Selley, that molded their parts in a much softer metal than most other manufacturers. While I looked through all my Red Ball catalogs without success, this still doesn't rule out Red Ball making these gondola parts; I don't have a complete collection of Red Ball catalogs. Still, I realize that this doesn't help describe your kit directly, but it could shed some light on it if we knew where these Walthers molds came from. We're still working on it as we don't give up easily, and that's because we're gluttons for punishment < g >. I've checked out the Model Railroad Equipment Corp (Carmen Webster) catalogs from the early 1950's to not avail but I'm not stopping here.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/30/2017 7:59:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

It has plastic sides and ends

Kent in KC

nvrr49.blogspot.com

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote :

The soft metal sides and ends sounds like Red Ball/Wabash Valley. Now if we could only find out who they bought these molds from we could get on to something.

Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26390	From: nvrr49	Date: 7/3/2017
Subject: Re: Any idea as to the maker?

Attachments :

unknown gon end.JPG

Thought this might help, a shot of the end of the gondola. No detail on the inside of the end.

Kent in KC

nvrr49.blogspot.com

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26391	From: Kent Hurley	Date: 7/3/2017
Subject: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Attachments :

FullSizeRender-26391.jpg

FullSizeRender-26391(2).jpg

FullSizeRender-26391(3).jpg

Yep, another one. Paper deck, cast metal sides, wood reinforcing under the end decks. If anyone would like the pictures sent directly to them, just let me know. Or any additional information or pictures. I will take it apart, strip the paint, and rebuild it. The paper deck will not be salvageable.

Kent in KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26392	From: nvrr49	Date: 7/4/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

.bI missed an obvious clue, the trucks. They look like some I have seen on a Megow kit, but I don't think Megow made a depressed center flat car.

Kent in KC

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26393	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/4/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

I checked several Megow catalogs earlier today, thinking that's what it might be, but didn't see any depressed center flatcar there. If there's something about the truck (I see only one) that I missed, besides it being a 4-wheel truck while others used 6-wheel trucks, what's this missing clue? Numerous H0 manufacturers produced depressed center flat cars with 4-wheel trucks being used on a fair amount of them.

While this one hasn't been identified yet, we can rule out Authenticast (one-piece casting, A-C Models (floor and underframe are wood - no mention of paper), Cliff Line (one-piece casting), Red Ball (floor is wood) and Devore (one-piece casting),

Ray W.

In a message dated 7/4/2017 11:31:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

.bI missed an obvious clue, the trucks. They look like some I have seen on a Megow kit, but I don't think Megow made a depressed center flat car.

Kent in KC

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26394	From: Ray Zeffert	Date: 7/4/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26395	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/4/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

It appears Tenshodo produced a 40' version of a depressed center flat car, not a 50' version.

Ray W.

In a message dated 7/4/2017 10:33:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26396	From: Ray Zeffert	Date: 7/5/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Hi Froup

Also Athearn had a diecast well flat with paper inserts, and I cannot
find my model or the Tenshodo at the moment.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26397	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/5/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

If only it were this easy. I regret to have to mention that Athearn never made a depressed center flat car, of any material, of any length, so we'll have to rule them out. They did make lots of other flatcar types, including the Heavy-Duty 200 Ton Flat Car having 4 Trucks, which included an undec Red, an undec Black, Westinghouse, C&NW, Erie and Pennsylvania. They also produced four 40' Flat Cars, three 50' Flat cars and three 85' Flat Cars, in various roads.

Ray W.

In a message dated 7/5/2017 5:22:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Group

Also Athearn had a diecast well flat with paper inserts, and I cannot
find my model or the Tenshodo at the moment.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26398	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/5/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Somewhere I have an HO crane kit consisting of wood shapes and embossed paper for the visible surfaces.

I don’t believe there are any metal parts but, I am not able to locate it now, or for some time to come.

It is not in the areas I have access to with my newly acquired broken right leg. I managed to fall while ushering at Church. Never though a suburban parish could be so rough.

I am trying to find out the brand but I do recall it is not from any of the well known makers. And, whether it would have any relation to this flat car is also unknown but the embossed paper items look very similar to the ones in this kit.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2017 9:34 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26399	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/5/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Attachments :

acmodelcatalog1949pg05.jpg

acdepressedcenterflatcarpg2.jpg

acdepressedcenterflatcarpg1.jpg

Could this possibly be it?

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 4:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Somewhere I have an HO crane kit consisting of wood shapes and embossed paper for the visible surfaces.

I don’t believe there are any metal parts but, I am not able to locate it now, or for some time to come.

It is not in the areas I have access to with my newly acquired broken right leg. I managed to fall while ushering at Church. Never though a suburban parish could be so rough.

John Hagen

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26400	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/5/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Attachments :

Hello John,

I think the crane you talk about is by Ideal.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 5:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Somewhere I have an HO crane kit consisting of wood shapes and embossed paper for the visible surfaces.

I don’t believe there are any metal parts but, I am not able to locate it now, or for some time to come.

It is not in the areas I have access to with my newly acquired broken right leg. I managed to fall while ushering at Church. Never though a suburban parish could be so rough.

John Hagen

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26401	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/5/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Ideal comes to mind as being embossed paper over wood, and this would be about a 120 Ton crane (not the big 200 Ton crane). As I can't see the pics, I'm just stating what Ideal made for you to compare yours to. Hope that right leg mends soon. Can't be too careful when we get older. I took a bad spill this morning working in my yard; lucky I'm not on crutches too.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 7/5/2017 6:18:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello John,

I think the crane you talk about is by Ideal.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 5:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Somewhere I have an HO crane kit consisting of wood shapes and embossed paper for the visible surfaces.

I don’t believe there are any metal parts but, I am not able to locate it now, or for some time to come.

It is not in the areas I have access to with my newly acquired broken right leg. I managed to fall while ushering at Church. Never though a suburban parish could be so rough.

I am trying to find out the brand but I do recall it is not from any of the well known makers. And, whether it would have any relation to this flat car is also unknown but the embossed paper items look very similar to the ones in this kit.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2017 9:34 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26402	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/5/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Attachments :

ideal150toncrane.jpg

Ray,

You and Chuck hit it on the head. The name “Ideal” shook some cobwebs in what-I-laughingly-refer-to-as-my-mind. It is most definitely an Ideal kit.

When (and if) I ever find the kit I’ll do some photos.

It appears complete in the OB and has the instructions. It is a 150 ton crane (see attached instructions).

SOMEDAY, I’ll build some of this ancient stuff I have sitting around.

I have a fairly complete die-cast Athearn (needs trucks which I have albeit not the Athearn die-cast, they were the first thing to break), an assembled Red Ball that needs minor work and a new, in the box Red Ball in addition to the Ideal.

In more modern models I have the industrial Brown Hoist 120 ton crane in HO, N (Both Tichy) and O scales for doing models of the Soo Line W-2.

I like rr cranes.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 5:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 7/5/2017 6:18:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello John,
I think the crane you talk about is by Ideal.
Take care,
Chuck
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 5:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Somewhere I have an HO crane kit consisting of wood shapes and embossed paper for the visible surfaces.
I don’t believe there are any metal parts but, I am not able to locate it now, or for some time to come.
It is not in the areas I have access to with my newly acquired broken right leg. I managed to fall while ushering at Church. Never though a suburban parish could be so rough.
I am trying to find out the brand but I do recall it is not from any of the well known makers. And, whether it would have any relation to this flat car is also unknown but the embossed paper items look very similar to the ones in this kit.
John Hagen
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2017 9:34 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26403	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/5/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker [1 Attachment]

John,

Yes, the Ideal crane is a 150 Ton model, their catalog number MW-1. I've made a listing for myself, of haves and wants, so that when I go to train shows I don't buy duplicates of what I already have. Should have checked my list as I have this kit (actually, in duplicate < g >), as this is one I don't mind having a double of. I remember Gould produced a 120 Ton Brownhoist Crane in the early 1980's, which consisted of over 200 plastic (injection molded styrene) parts. As it was "too new" back then, I never picked it up and I don't guess still that it would be considered as "vintage" even today, but it's a nice model.

Like you, I too appreciate wrecking crane models and have a few of the Athearn die-cast 200 Ton crane, my favorite. I still follow them on eBay, and I noticed there was one that ended on July 2nd and another that ended on July 5th. This last one was the scarce electrically operating one (yes, it had two wires going into the back of it). As you can see, I like these cranes myself, especially the "Big Hook." The Red Ball 200 Ton crane is one I don't have. I neglected to buy it when it first came out and haven't seen many recently. I think the reason why I didn't get it when it was available was that since it's similar to the Athearn model, and knowing Red Ball used a heavier/softer metal, it seemed like it might literally weigh a ton after assembly or at least close to it ! I'd guess that Wabash Valley must have made one also, which may be found in Walthers if I took the time to look.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 7/5/2017 7:36:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

You and Chuck hit it on the head. The name “Ideal” shook some cobwebs in what-I-laughingly-refer-to-as-my-mind. It is most definitely an Ideal kit.

When (and if) I ever find the kit I’ll do some photos.

It appears complete in the OB and has the instructions. It is a 150 ton crane (see attached instructions).

SOMEDAY, I’ll build some of this ancient stuff I have sitting around.

I have a fairly complete die-cast Athearn (needs trucks which I have albeit not the Athearn die-cast, they were the first thing to break), an assembled Red Ball that needs minor work and a new, in the box Red Ball in addition to the Ideal.

In more modern models I have the industrial Brown Hoist 120 ton crane in HO, N (Both Tichy) and O scales for doing models of the Soo Line W-2.

I like rr cranes.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 5:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Ideal comes to mind as being embossed paper over wood, and this would be about a 120 Ton crane (not the big 200 Ton crane). As I can't see the pics, I'm just stating what Ideal made for you to compare yours to. Hope that right leg mends soon. Can't be too careful when we get older. I took a bad spill this morning working in my yard; lucky I'm not on crutches too.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 7/5/2017 6:18:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello John,

I think the crane you talk about is by Ideal.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 5:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Somewhere I have an HO crane kit consisting of wood shapes and embossed paper for the visible surfaces.

I don’t believe there are any metal parts but, I am not able to locate it now, or for some time to come.

It is not in the areas I have access to with my newly acquired broken right leg. I managed to fall while ushering at Church. Never though a suburban parish could be so rough.

I am trying to find out the brand but I do recall it is not from any of the well known makers. And, whether it would have any relation to this flat car is also unknown but the embossed paper items look very similar to the ones in this kit.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2017 9:34 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26404	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/6/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Ray,

Nice to know we have similar interests.

That Gould 120 ton Brownhoist Crane is still being produced by Tichy Train Group. All 200 pieces of it. And they have (or at least had, haven’t checked recently) an N scale kit.

https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ho_freight-car-kits/p/4010/Default.aspx

There are generally several available on eBay but the prices are usually the same as the Tichy’s so it would be best to buy from Tichy or a LHS. While I do buy eBay items they are the ones not still available from hobby shops or the manufacturer (or importer).

While the Gould would not really qualify as a “vintage” model it is old enough, and good enough, for my interests.

I was not aware of the motorized Athearn. Nor was I aware of the Wabash Valley but I will research it.

The Red Ball is definitely hard to find. I had watched eBay for a very long time before I found the built one at a price I could afford. Even the ones I couldn’t afford were few and far between. Interestingly, the kit came up relatively soon after.

I never should have sold the Athearn I got at a swap roughly 3 years or so ago. It was in very good condition and the price was a super deal. Which is why I did sell it about an hour later as the offer was way more than what I paid. I still kick myself for that.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 11:54 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

John,

Ray Wetzel

•

•

•

•

Bill Raia Photo11--69 A.jpg

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26405	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/6/2017
Subject: Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

John,

When you first stated that you bought that Athearn metal 200 Ton crane and resold it at the same meet for a good profit, I thought you already had one, but since you didn't, I would certainly agree with you that, that was a blunder! I do see them once in a while on eBay, but not that often.

I should have jotted down what these two sold for, but I can't bring them up again on eBay now, so that's a moot point. I do remember that the operating (motorized) one was quite a bit more than the standard model, though, but even the standard model was not cheap. I had learned of this operating Athearn metal 200 Ton crane many years ago from the HO SC&H SIG, but never saw one until now. Dallas J. Mallerich III makes no mention of an operating/motorized one in the Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, and my feeling is that the electrical mechanism is an after-market addition not made by Athearn. I should (and will) check the pages of The Reporting Mark for any information I can find on this.

On the Wabash Valley Lines metal 200 Ton crane; as Merle Rice took over the Red Ball line in 1975, it would seem to stand to reason that he carried this model over as one of his Wabash Valley Lines models, but then I can't positively verify this. There's always the chance that for some reason, he may have dropped this particular model, but as I've purchased many of his other Wabash Valley kits having much metal in them, it wouldn't seem to have been because of any sort of metal composition reason. There was some controversy in 1975 as to whether Mr. Rice would be able to continue producing those Red Ball models having high lead content in them, as the government was enacting laws against lead use. He may have even had to change the alloy formula somewhat, but on this I don't know. As we all know however, Merle is a member here and perhaps he can shed some light on whether the 200 Ton crane was continued into Wabash Valley, as I change the Subject Line here to draw his attention to this.

BTW, my crane interests also extend to the various crane tenders -- boom cars -- that a number of manufacturers made. After all, to have a crane without a boom car is almost like having a steam engine without a tender < g >. Every crane has to have some type of companion car, even if it's just a wheel car with a load of trucks.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 7/6/2017 11:26:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Nice to know we have similar interests.

That Gould 120 ton Brownhoist Crane is still being produced by Tichy Train Group. All 200 pieces of it. And they have (or at least had, haven’t checked recently) an N scale kit.

https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ho_freight-car-kits/p/4010/Default.aspx

There are generally several available on eBay but the prices are usually the same as the Tichy’s so it would be best to buy from Tichy or a LHS. While I do buy eBay items they are the ones not still available from hobby shops or the manufacturer (or importer).

While the Gould would not really qualify as a “vintage” model it is old enough, and good enough, for my interests.

I was not aware of the motorized Athearn. Nor was I aware of the Wabash Valley but I will research it.

The Red Ball is definitely hard to find. I had watched eBay for a very long time before I found the built one at a price I could afford. Even the ones I couldn’t afford were few and far between. Interestingly, the kit came up relatively soon after.

I never should have sold the Athearn I got at a swap roughly 3 years or so ago. It was in very good condition and the price was a super deal. Which is why I did sell it about an hour later as the offer was way more than what I paid. I still kick myself for that.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 11:54 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

John,

Yes, the Ideal crane is a 150 Ton model, their catalog number MW-1. I've made a listing for myself, of haves and wants, so that when I go to train shows I don't buy duplicates of what I already have. Should have checked my list as I have this kit (actually, in duplicate < g >), as this is one I don't mind having a double of. I remember Gould produced a 120 Ton Brownhoist Crane in the early 1980's, which consisted of over 200 plastic (injection molded styrene) parts. As it was "too new" back then, I never picked it up and I don't guess still that it would be considered as "vintage" even today, but it's a nice model.

Like you, I too appreciate wrecking crane models and have a few of the Athearn die-cast 200 Ton crane, my favorite. I still follow them on eBay, and I noticed there was one that ended on July 2nd and another that ended on July 5th. This last one was the scarce electrically operating one (yes, it had two wires going into the back of it). As you can see, I like these cranes myself, especially the "Big Hook." The Red Ball 200 Ton crane is one I don't have. I neglected to buy it when it first came out and haven't seen many recently. I think the reason why I didn't get it when it was available was that since it's similar to the Athearn model, and knowing Red Ball used a heavier/softer metal, it seemed like it might literally weigh a ton after assembly or at least close to it ! I'd guess that Wabash Valley must have made one also, which may be found in Walthers if I took the time to look.

Ray Wetzel

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26406	From: nvrr49	Date: 7/6/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

John Hagen attached pictures of the A-C Models instructions. I built the 40' A-C models, both the 40' FC and the 40' depressed center a few years ago, and there are several differences, The end floor on the A-C models are grooved wood, where as the unknown model was embossed paper. The center section on the the A-C has many holes in it, the unknown one has an oval embossed in it, possible to locate a load. The end beams on the A-C are different, as are the bolsters. The bracing underneath the floors on the drawing are different as well, but we all have been known to assemble a kit different than the instructions. The side castings are quite similar, although the sides on the unknown model are much thicker.

I just pulled out a Varney paperside gondola I built, and it does have the same end beams as the unknown flat. Maybe the unknown mfg bought some parts from Varney?

Thanks for the efforts ladies and gentlemen.

Kent in KC

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <sprinthag@...> wrote :

Could this possibly be it?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26407	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/6/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Yes, I mentioned that A-C Models' depressed center flat car can be ruled out, but it never hurts to take second looks at any of them. Kitbashing wasn't unheard of even back then. That this modeler may have used some Varney parts in building his flat car isn't beyond comprehension, as parts for model building were cataloged by many manufacturers and bought for the modeler's inventory, to be used when constructing a car even from scratch..

Ray W.

In a message dated 7/6/2017 6:31:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

John Hagen attached pictures of the A-C Models instructions. I built the 40' A-C models, both the 40' FC and the 40' depressed center a few years ago, and there are several differences, The end floor on the A-C models are grooved wood, where as the unknown model was embossed paper. The center section on the the A-C has many holes in it, the unknown one has an oval embossed in it, possible to locate a load. The end beams on the A-C are different, as are the bolsters. The bracing underneath the floors on the drawing are different as well, but we all have been known to assemble a kit different than the instructions. The side castings are quite similar, although the sides on the unknown model are much thicker.

I just pulled out a Varney paperside gondola I built, and it does have the same end beams as the unknown flat. Maybe the unknown mfg bought some parts from Varney?

Thanks f or the efforts ladies and gentlemen.

Kent in KC

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <sprinthag@...> wrote :

Could this possibly be it?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26408	From: Rick Jones	Date: 7/6/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

On 7/6/2017 10:19 AM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> That Gould 120 ton Brownhoist Crane is still being produced by Tichy
> Train Group. All 200 pieces of it. And they have (or at least had,
> haven’t checked recently) an N scale kit.
>
> https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ho_freight-car-kits/p/4010/Default.aspx
>
> There are generally several available on eBay but the prices are usually
> the same as the Tichy’s so it would be best to buy from Tichy or a LHS.

I'm surprised by the prices shown on Tichy's web site. It seems
they've hardly increased from 20 or more years ago, compared to how
other manufacturers have raised theirs. And because of their complexity
Tichy used to be considered a pretty high end kit, a plastic version of
a craftsman kit more or less.

--

Rick Jones

Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called "Rush
Hour"?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26409	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/6/2017
Subject: Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Attachments :

Ray and all,

I do have an Athearn die-cast crane that is in good condition other than those @#*^ trucks that always seem to disintegrate at the center axle. I have a set of sprung brass buckeye trucks and a newer, plastic set of Athearn’s. On one hand I feel that keeping it all Athearn would be nice but then again it isn’t the ones that came with it. And the brass are soooo nice…… Over the years we (dad, my brother and I) had at least 3 Athearn die-cast cranes. The first was bought new as a kit and assembled by dad and my brother. As usual, eventually it started to fall apart as the metal returned to its elemental stage. Then I had 1 or 2 used items that were in various stages of disintegration before I got the swap meet one.

Besides the crane tenders you described here that could also be known as tool or boom cars, I am attempting to find enough information to build a fuel and water supply tender for my model of the Soo Line W-2 crane. These would normally not be seen while working a wreck as they would be in the way. The cranes were fueled and watered at the start of the day or shift which would carry them through. They always seem to be rebuilt locomotive tenders albeit they could have been built from new as crane tenders. There were several differences from a loco tender such as having a boiler to keep the water from freezing in northern climates, often a platform for coaling the crane as the coal hatch was on the roof or the crane and various other additions designed to make them more useful in wreck crane service.

I’ve attached a photo taken by Bill Raia in Nov, 1969 at Sussex, Wi. of the W-2 and both its fuel tender and tool car/boom car. This photo was taken after the wreck train arrived on the scene before started clearing the wreck. I visited this scene during the clean up. They used two cranes, the 1968 built diesel powered wrecker on the north end, probably from North Fond Du Lac and the still steam powered, 1911 W-2 from Schiller Park on the south end. Back in 1969 you could still walk right up to the wreck. Oh, if I only had a camera back then.

BTW, Bill Raia worked as the fireman on the W-2 for several years and eventually became the engineer, which I think occurred sometime after the W-2 was rebuilt as a diesel powered crane in 1970. Bill Wrote an excellent, 3 part article about wrecking cranes and how they worked them on the Soo Line that appeared in the Spring, Summer and Fall 2005 issues of “The Soo”, the Soo Line Historical and Technical Society’s magazine. If you are at all interested in how the railroads used their cranes in wrecker service, and how the steam cranes operated, buy these issues from the SLH&TS. It is very informative, interesting and there are many good, clear photos included.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2017 11:34 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

John,

Ray Wetzel

Reply via web post
•
Reply to sender
•
Reply to group
•
Start a New Topic
•
Messages in this topic (1)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
Visit Your Group
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26410	From: Ray Zeffert	Date: 7/6/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Ray

Thanks for your reply. Now I don't know what I have! Will have a good
look to see if I can find my model.

Thanks

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26411	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 7/7/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

For one thing, they haven't gone running to China for all the advantages of having no control over their tooling and supporting a sweat shop economy.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 4:23:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

On 7/6/2017 10:19 AM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> That Gould 120 ton Brownhoist Crane is still being produced by Tichy
> Train Group. All 200 pieces of it. And they have (or at least had,
> haven’t checked recently) an N scale kit.
>
> https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ho_freight-car-kits/p/4010/Default.aspx
>
> There are generally several available on eBay but the prices are usually
> the same as the Tichy’s so it would be best to buy from Tichy or a LHS.

I'm surprised by the prices shown on Tichy's web site. It seems
they've hardly increased from 20 or more years ago, compared to how
other manufacturers have raised theirs. And because of their complexity
Tichy used to be considered a pretty high end kit, a plastic version of
a craftsman kit more or less.

--

Rick Jones

Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called "Rush
Hour"?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26412	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/7/2017
Subject: Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker ...

John,

I forgot that you did mention having an Athearn die-cast crane without trucks. Unless you're a die-hard H0 collector who requires that everything be original (and some of us are, at least to varying extents), those sprung Buckeye trucks sound great and would add detail. It's unfortunate that so many of these trucks disintegrated, even as reported in the Athearn Guide book, but like it's been said here a number of times, usually if a zamak piece lasts this long it's a good bet that it beat the zinc-pest syndrome. I also have an Athearn crane kit having zinc-rotted trucks, but all my other ones have remained intact. I've found over the years that these Athearn cranes are like Pringles potato chips -- you can't have just one! So, I had picked them up whenever I could many years ago. I'm fairly sure I even bought one from Frank Brua (Park Varieties) back in the mid 1970's. You may recall Frank was a dealer (and a collector) of vintage H0 back then who advertised in MR, and he'd offer items that few other dealers could.

I hadn't thought about a fuel and water supply tender to go with the crane, but to serve two purposes (as a companion car to your crane and as a collector's item) Varney produced just such a car, as you may recall. Varney described it as their Water Car -- Catalog number 2553. I don't know how prototypical it was or whether this would fit your needs, but basically it consists of their No. 2531K 32' Tender's shell (used with the Casey Jones and Old Lady) mounted on their 40' flat car. To catch a glimpse of it, you can go up to < https://picclick.com/Varney -No-2553-Water-Car-ATS-E93250-In-152499273734.html

>. I have a kit in my collection, which I never assembled, as it is

scarce.

The only other fuel cars I can recall at the moment are the Athearn metal A-507 gasoline and A-508 diesel tank cars, which serve no purpose with a crane. Besides which, they were produced only in SP livery.

As you may remember from my recent posts, I'm unable to enlarge attachments sent via Yahoo Neo, but I appreciate the attempt. For the same reason, I don't know how close Varney's Water Car is to the one Bill Raia had use of. I have seen scenes of wreck sites requiring two cranes and it's awesome to see these wreckers in action. In the Northeast here, there's a quarterly publication printed by the Anthracite RR's Society (basically covering all the "fallen flags" that had gone into Conrail; they too delved into the various cranes of these pre-CR railroads.

I know what you mean about not having a camera back then. I'm a "rail photographer" myself, and I wish I had started much earlier than I did, but even in my young teen's when I'd occasionally pick up a copy of Trains magazine at my local hobby store, when picking up my monthly MR magazine, I always though then that all the photos were taken by the Trains staff. It never occurred to me that railroad photography was a hobby that was taken up by the average railroad enthusiast, even train modeler, and that many of them even submitted some of their photos to the magazines.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 7/7/2017 12:38:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray and all,

I do have an Athearn die-cast crane that is in good condition other than those @#*^ trucks that always seem to disintegrate at the center axle. I have a set of sprung brass buckeye trucks and a newer, plastic set of Athearn’s. On one hand I feel that keeping it all Athearn would be nice but then again it isn’t the ones that came with it. And the brass are soooo nice…… Over the years we (dad, my brother and I) had at least 3 Athearn die-cast cranes. The first was bought new as a kit and assembled by dad and my brother. As usual, eventually it started to fall apart as the metal returned to its elemental stage. Then I had 1 or 2 used items that were in various stages of disintegration before I got the swap meet one.

Besides the crane tenders you described here that could also be known as tool or boom cars, I am attempting to find enough information to build a fuel and water supply tender for my model of the Soo Line W-2 crane. These would normally not be seen while working a wreck as they would be in the way. The cranes were fueled and watered at the start of the day or shift which would carry them through. They always seem to be rebuilt locomotive tenders albeit they could have been built from new as crane tenders. There were several differences from a loco tender such as having a boiler to keep the water from freezing in northern climates, often a platform for coaling the crane as the coal hatch was on the roof or the crane and various other additions designed to make them more useful in wreck crane service.

I’ve attached a photo taken by Bill Raia in Nov, 1969 at Sussex, Wi. of the W-2 and both its fuel tender and tool car/boom car. This photo was taken after the wreck train arrived on the scene before started clearing the wreck. I visited this scene during the clean up. They used two cranes, the 1968 built diesel powered wrecker on the north end, probably from North Fond Du Lac and the still steam powered, 1911 W-2 from Schiller Park on the south end. Back in 1969 you could still walk right up to the wreck. Oh, if I only had a camera back then.

BTW, Bill Raia worked as the fireman on the W-2 for several years and eventually became the engineer, which I think occurred sometime after the W-2 was rebuilt as a diesel powered crane in 1970. Bill Wrote an excellent, 3 part article about wrecking cranes and how they worked them on the Soo Line that appeared in the Spring, Summer and Fall 2005 issues of “The Soo”, the Soo Line Historical and Technical Society’s magazine. If you are at all interested in how the railroads used their cranes in wrecker service, and how the steam cranes operated, buy these issues from the SLH&TS. It is very informative, interesting and there are many good, clear photos included.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2017 11:34 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

John,

When you first stated that you bought that Athearn metal 200 Ton crane and resold it at the same meet for a good profit, I thought you already had one, but since you didn't, I would certainly agree with you that, that was a blunder! I do see them once in a while on eBay, but not that often.

I should have jotted down what these two sold for, but I can't bring them up again on eBay now, so that's a moot point. I do remember that the operating (motorized) one was quite a bit more than the standard model, though, but even the standard model was not cheap. I had learned of this operating Athearn metal 200 Ton crane many years ago from the HO SC&H SIG, but never saw one until now. Dallas J. Mallerich III makes no mention of an operating/motorized one in the Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, and my feeling is that the electrical mechanism is an after-market addition not made by Athearn. I should (and will) check the pages of The Reporting Mark for any information I can find on this.

On the Wabash Valley Lines metal 200 Ton crane; as Merle Rice took over the Red Ball line in 1975, it would seem to stand to reason that he carried this model over as one of his Wabash Valley Lines models, but then I can't positively verify this. There's always the chance that for some reason, he may have dropped this particular model, but as I've purchased many of his other Wabash Valley kits having much metal in them, it wouldn't seem to have been because of any sort of metal composition reason. There was some controversy in 1975 as to whether Mr. Rice would be able to continue producing those Red Ball models having high lead content in them, as the government was enacting laws against lead use. He may have even had to change the alloy formula somewhat, but on this I don't know. As we all know however, Merle is a member here and perhaps he can shed some light on whether the 200 Ton crane was continued into Wabash Valley, as I change the Subject Line here to draw his attention to this.

BTW, my crane interests also extend to the various crane tenders -- boom cars -- that a number of manufacturers made. After all, to have a crane without a boom car is almost like having a steam engine without a tender < g >. Every crane has to have some type of companion car, even if it's just a wheel car with a load of trucks.

Ray Wetzel

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26413	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/7/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

That sounds like an Ideal crane. Here is an example of one:

Ho Scale X-43 Wood Crane Car w/ Metal sprung trucks / RESTORE | eBay

Ho Scale X-43 Wood Crane Car w/ Metal sprung trucks / RESTORE | Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Train...

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Somewhere I have an HO crane kit consisting of wood shapes and embossed paper for the visible surfaces.

I don’t believe there are any metal parts but, I am not able to locate it now, or for some time to come.

It is not in the areas I have access to with my newly acquired broken right leg. I managed to fall while ushering at Church. Never though a suburban parish could be so rough.

John Hagen

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26414	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/7/2017
Subject: Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker [1 Attachment]

Looks like I hit this a bit too late.. I like the Ideal crane. Pretty cool vintage piece.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from John Hagen included below]

Ray,

You and Chuck hit it on the head. The name “Ideal” shook some cobwebs in what-I-laughingly-refer-to-as-my-mind. It is most definitely an Ideal kit.

When (and if) I ever find the kit I’ll do some photos.

It appears complete in the OB and has the instructions. It is a 150 ton crane (see attached instructions).

SOMEDAY, I’ll build some of this ancient stuff I have sitting around.

In more modern models I have the industrial Brown Hoist 120 ton crane in HO, N (Both Tichy) and O scales for doing models of the Soo Line W-2.

I like rr cranes.

John Hagen

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 7/5/2017 6:18:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello John,
I think the crane you talk about is by Ideal.
Take care,
Chuck
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 5:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Somewhere I have an HO crane kit consisting of wood shapes and embossed paper for the visible surfaces.
I don’t believe there are any metal parts but, I am not able to locate it now, or for some time to come.
It is not in the areas I have access to with my newly acquired broken right leg. I managed to fall while ushering at Church. Never though a suburban parish could be so rough.
I am trying to find out the brand but I do recall it is not from any of the well known makers. And, whether it would have any relation to this flat car is also unknown but the embossed paper items look very similar to the ones in this kit.
John Hagen
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2017 9:34 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

Hi Group

Tenshodo produced a depressed centre flat car in their ranege of boxes,
tanks etc.

Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26415	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 7/7/2017
Subject: Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker ...

Would you consider using cast brass trucks from Precision Scale?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, July 07, 2017 6:23 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker ...

John,

I forgot that you did mention having an Athearn die-cast crane without trucks. Unless you're a die-hard H0 collector who requires that everything be original (and some of us are, at least to varying extents), those sprung Buckeye trucks sound great and would add detail. It's unfortunate that so many of these trucks disintegrated, even as reported in the Athearn Guide book, but like it's been said here a number of times, usually if a zamak piece lasts this long it's a good bet that it beat the zinc-pest syndrome. I also have an Athearn crane kit having zinc-rotted trucks, but all my other ones have remained intact. I've found over the years that these Athearn cranes are like Pringles potato chips -- you can't have just one! So, I had picked them up whenever I could many years ago. I'm fairly sure I even bought one from Frank Brua (Park Varieties) back in the mid 1970's. You may recall Frank was a dealer (and a collector) of vintage H0 back then who advertised in MR, and he'd offer items that few other dealers could.

I hadn't thought about a fuel and water supply tender to go with the crane, but to serve two purposes (as a companion car to your crane and as a collector's item) Varney produced just such a car, as you may recall. Varney described it as their Water Car -- Catalog number 2553. I don't know how prototypical it was or whether this would fit your needs, but basically it consists of their No. 2531K 32' Tender's shell (used with the Casey Jones and Old Lady) mounted on their 40' flat car. To catch a glimpse of it, you can go up to < https://picclick.com/Varney -No-2553-Water-Car-ATS-E93250-In-152499273734.html >. I have a kit in my collection, which I never assembled, as it is scarce.

The only other fuel cars I can recall at the moment are the Athearn metal A-507 gasoline and A-508 diesel tank cars, which serve no purpose with a crane. Besides which, they were produced only in SP livery.

As you may remember from my recent posts, I'm unable to enlarge attachments sent via Yahoo Neo, but I appreciate the attempt. For the same reason, I don't know how close Varney's Water Car is to the one Bill Raia had use of. I have seen scenes of wreck sites requiring two cranes and it's awesome to see these wreckers in action. In the Northeast here, there's a quarterly publication printed by the Anthracite RR's Society (basically covering all the "fallen flags" that had gone into Conrail; they too delved into the various cranes of these pre-CR railroads.

I know what you mean about not having a camera back then. I'm a "rail photographer" myself, and I wish I had started much earlier than I did, but even in my young teen's when I'd occasionally pick up a copy of Trains magazine at my local hobby store, when picking up my monthly MR magazine, I always though then that all the photos were taken by the Trains staff. It never occurred to me that railroad photography was a hobby that was taken up by the average railroad enthusiast, even train modeler, and that many of them even submitted some of their photos to the magazines.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 7/7/2017 12:38:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray and all,

I do have an Athearn die-cast crane that is in good condition other than those @#*^ trucks that always seem to disintegrate at the center axle. I have a set of sprung brass buckeye trucks and a newer, plastic set of Athearn’s. On one hand I feel that keeping it all Athearn would be nice but then again it isn’t the ones that came with it. And the brass are soooo nice…… Over the years we (dad, my brother and I) had at least 3 Athearn die-cast cranes. The first was bought new as a kit and assembled by dad and my brother. As usual, eventually it started to fall apart as the metal returned to its elemental stage. Then I had 1 or 2 used items that were in various stages of disintegration before I got the swap meet one.

Besides the crane tenders you described here that could also be known as tool or boom cars, I am attempting to find enough information to build a fuel and water supply tender for my model of the Soo Line W-2 crane. These would normally not be seen while working a wreck as they would be in the way. The cranes were fueled and watered at the start of the day or shift which would carry them through. They always seem to be rebuilt locomotive tenders albeit they could have been built from new as crane tenders. There were several differences from a loco tender such as having a boiler to keep the water from freezing in northern climates, often a platform for coaling the crane as the coal hatch was on the roof or the crane and various other additions designed to make them more useful in wreck crane service.

I’ve attached a photo taken by Bill Raia in Nov, 1969 at Sussex, Wi. of the W-2 and both its fuel tender and tool car/boom car. This photo was taken after the wreck train arrived on the scene before started clearing the wreck. I visited this scene during the clean up. They used two cranes, the 1968 built diesel powered wrecker on the north end, probably from North Fond Du Lac and the still steam powered, 1911 W-2 from Schiller Park on the south end. Back in 1969 you could still walk right up to the wreck. Oh, if I only had a camera back then.

BTW, Bill Raia worked as the fireman on the W-2 for several years and eventually became the engineer, which I think occurred sometime after the W-2 was rebuilt as a diesel powered crane in 1970. Bill Wrote an excellent, 3 part article about wrecking cranes and how they worked them on the Soo Line that appeared in the Spring, Summer and Fall 2005 issues of “The Soo”, the Soo Line Historical and Technical Society’s magazine. If you are at all interested in how the railroads used their cranes in wrecker service, and how the steam cranes operated, buy these issues from the SLH&TS. It is very informative, interesting and there are many good, clear photos included.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2017 11:34 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker

John,

When you first stated that you bought that Athearn metal 200 Ton crane and resold it at the same meet for a good profit, I thought you already had one, but since you didn't, I would certainly agree with you that, that was a blunder! I do see them once in a while on eBay, but not that often.

I should have jotted down what these two sold for, but I can't bring them up again on eBay now, so that's a moot point. I do remember that the operating (motorized) one was quite a bit more than the standard model, though, but even the standard model was not cheap. I had learned of this operating Athearn metal 200 Ton crane many years ago from the HO SC&H SIG, but never saw one until now. Dallas J. Mallerich III makes no mention of an operating/motorized one in the Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, and my feeling is that the electrical mechanism is an after-market addition not made by Athearn. I should (and will) check the pages of The Reporting Mark for any information I can find on this.

On the Wabash Valley Lines metal 200 Ton crane; as Merle Rice took over the Red Ball line in 1975, it would seem to stand to reason that he carried this model over as one of his Wabash Valley Lines models, but then I can't positively verify this. There's always the chance that for some reason, he may have dropped this particular model, but as I've purchased many of his other Wabash Valley kits having much metal in them, it wouldn't seem to have been because of any sort of metal composition reason. There was some controversy in 1975 as to whether Mr. Rice would be able to continue producing those Red Ball models having high lead content in them, as the government was enacting laws against lead use. He may have even had to change the alloy formula somewhat, but on this I don't know. As we all know however, Merle is a member here and perhaps he can shed some light on whether the 200 Ton crane was continued into Wabash Valley, as I change the Subject Line here to draw his attention to this.

BTW, my crane interests also extend to the various crane tenders -- boom cars -- that a number of manufacturers made. After all, to have a crane without a boom car is almost like having a steam engine without a tender < g >. Every crane has to have some type of companion car, even if it's just a wheel car with a load of trucks.

Ray Wetzel

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26416	From: Model RailRoad Warehouse	Date: 7/8/2017
Subject: Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker ...

Trying to catch up-- I've not been online for a few weeks--having been "on vacation" [actually June in the hospital for serious problems]. The Red Ball wreck crane was resumed in production in 1970s for Wabash Valley and ran for MANY years until 1990's with only one significant change [from Howell Day's kits] in design. The milled wood block inside the cab in Howell's models was changed to a two piece wood frame. The metal remained the same lead/tin/antimony alloy (type metal) as required by the Ludlow casting machine. California Cancer warning labels were added while the law required. Turned brass pulleys and fabricated brass "reach bars" supplies ran out and diminished kit sales did not justify investment of replacement in the quantities needed for pricing. I did have some "spin cast" replacement parts made as potential replacements for them but put that on back burner when we started test running the cast metal cab & boom parts in styrene (using same Red Ball molds) as potential redesign toward making it a styrene kit. These styrene parts were sold as "ConvertaKits" under our Cannonball Car Shop brand for a short time. Red Ball's crane companion cars (loco tender and boom.tool car) were also run in styrene as well as the original metal.

You may have noted in an ad that I have re-placed the Red Ball line (molds, car side art, plastic and metal molding machines) in the market for sale. Most of the more promising metal kit parts were successfully test run in styrene [and sold as Cannonball brand parts] as I was moving toward revising the Red Ball line to styrene flat kits (Cannonball) and etched Brass (Red Ball LTD). There are 3-4 dozen unique prototype car kits (and a plethora of "universal parts" suited for other new kit development ) than could be readily redeveloped with the detailed mold work complete and only simple (floors & roofs mostly) mold work remaining to be done. Sales Pitch: You couldn't get the crane molds (alone) made today for my asking price of the whole lot.

Back to the crane: when time & energy permit I will re-offer a FEW sets of all metal crane parts in the YARDSALE on the MRRW website. These were held back as warranty protection parts.

Back to the flat car thread -- Red Ball 50 ft PRR DC Flat and NYC LCL Container Flat were also run as Cannonball Styrene kits. The 36ft Commonwealth DC flat was not as Eastern Car Works brought out the same car briefly at that time (but it is now gone). The 200 Ton 4 truck flat was also not done in styrene as Athearn had copied it. PRR semiwell, Erie, PL&LE and Lehigh Valley heavy duty flats were intended to be next.

And way back to the original gondola thread. I could not see the photos well enough to determine what they were. Red Ball N&W "Battleship" coal gon had been offered by Howell Day with embossed foil paper sides then metal. We ran it with cast metal sides. The Red Ball 40 ft composite gon, 4 wheel old time flat/gon and 36 ft wood side gon were done in both metal and styrene sides. The excellent NYC&HR hopper bottom coal gon was only run with die cast metal sides --test shots only were done in styrene pending redesign of the bottom for plastic. This was my favorite Red Ball car after the crane. I know of no paper used in gons by Red Ball though Red Ball ends COULD have been used in paper sided gons since Red Ball did use paper in 3 major forms and sold metal parts to other kit makers (as well as some kit makers "pirating" parts using rubber molds). Likewise, I know of no plastic Red Ball gons until those I listed. Red Ball (M Dale Newton) DID, however make some plastic parts pre 1950's. Tank car domes and billboards are the best known. I am not familiar with the Lehigh brand vintage kits tough I have a 40 ft Lehigh card sided reefer with hard plastic roof. The Red Ball kits I've been mentioning were tooled beyond the "state of thew art" when tooled (beyond many of today's cars too except the super premium museum quality ones). Much of the mold work was done by John Anderson--later of Cal Scale fame. Wabash Valley inherited precious few Red Ball cars that weren't that caliber. The D&H Cement gon with cement canister containers was one of them. The car's metal sides were poor in my opinion and we only reran it as an "anniversary limited" edition. [Canister lids and car ends-the tougher tooling-- very good].

The molds exist for additional long forgotten cars -- three or four flats alone-- which we never put into production. [Even some Newton or Day apparently never produced--that could be an interesting story in itself]. I normally tried to research the prototypes first and redesign kits (as needed) second- add or revise molds third in an era where internet info sources didn't exist and RR technical societies seemed unaware of the cars I inquired about.

Merle Rice

Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs.Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26417	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/8/2017
Subject: Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker ...

Merle,

Great to hear you’re getting better.

I went to your website just now. None of the pictures show, just “Image not available” notices.

Tried two different browsers, same difference.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2017 10:21 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker ...

Back to the crane: when time & energy permit I will re-offer a FEW sets of all metal crane parts in the YARDSALE on the MRRW website. These were held back as warranty protection parts.

Merle Rice

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26418	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/8/2017
Subject: Re: Wabash Valley; was, Depressed Center flat, unknown maker ...

Merle,

That you're out of the hospital, I hope this means your getting better. Wishing you a speedy recovery from whatever your Illness is. Glad to have you back. Thanks so much for your attention to all these recent threads. You've closed a lot of gaps in these open ends with details that just aren't found in catalogs, and then so much more.

I was just browsing the YARDSALE and MRRW sites only a few days ago, but will be checking them more frequently now, for offerings of the crane parts, when you can. I thoroughly enjoyed building every type of unique flat car you offered in your Wabash Valley line on metal models, back in the mid 1980's. The Lehigh Valley well type flatcar you reintroduced as new for 1980 would have had to be Day's K-33 catalog number, a 56' long flat car, unless I'm mistaken; I see it also in Newton's catalogs, but without any catalog number.

They're all different from what any other manufacturer produced though, and I'm specifically referring to the PRR 44' Semi -Well flat, the P&LE 36' Heavy Duty 100 Ton flat, the Erie 36' Heavy Duty 75 Ton flat, the New York Central 45' 4-truck 200 Ton flat, the 50' Buckeye-Truck-Equipped Depressed Center flat and of course the Lehigh Valley Well-Type flat. I wouldn't do without them and they fit right into the modern steam-diesel transition period I model, and no doubt would fit equally as well into the decade or two prior to this period. I enjoy the Express Reefer cars too. Not intending to build this line up with favorable comments here as they're not needed. The kits speak for themselves.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 7/8/2017 11:22:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Trying to catch up-- I've not been online for a few weeks--having been "on vacation" [actually June in the hospital for serious problems]. The Red Ball wreck crane was resumed in production in 1970s for Wabash Valley and ran for MANY years until 1990's with only one significant change [from Howell Day's kits] in design. The milled wood block inside the cab in Howell's models was changed to a two piece wood frame. The metal remained the same lead/tin/antimony alloy (type metal) as required by the Ludlow casting machine. California Cancer warning labels were added while the law required. Turned brass pulleys and fabricated brass "reach bars" supplies ran out and diminished kit sales did not justify investment of replacement in the quantiti es needed for pricing. I did have some "spin cast" replacement parts made as potential replacements for them but put that on back burner when we started test running the cast metal cab & boom parts in styrene (using same Red Ball molds) as potential redesign toward making it a styrene kit. These styrene parts were sold as "ConvertaKits" under our Cannonball Car Shop brand for a short time. Red Ball's crane companion cars (loco tender and boom.tool car) were also run in styrene as well as the original metal.

You may have noted in an ad that I have re-placed the Red Ball line (molds, car side art, plastic and metal molding machines) in the market for sale. Most of the more promising metal kit parts were successfully test run in styrene [and sold as Cannonball brand parts] as I was moving toward revising the Red Ball line to styrene flat kits (Cannonball) and etched Brass (Red Ball LTD). There are 3-4 dozen unique prototype car kits (and a plethora of "universal parts" suited for other new kit development ) than could be readily redeveloped with the detailed mold work complete and only simple (floors & roofs mostly) mold work remaining to be done. Sales Pitch: You couldn't get the crane molds (alone) made today for my asking price of the whole lot.

Back to the crane: when time & energy permit I will re-offer a FEW sets of all metal crane parts in the YARDSALE on the MRRW website. These were held back as warranty protection parts.

[Unable to display image]Back to the flat car thread -- Red Ball 50 ft PRR DC Flat and NYC LCL Container Flat were also run as Cannonball Styrene kits. The 36ft Commonwealth DC flat was not as Eastern Car Works brought out the same car briefly at that time (but it is now gone). The 200 Ton 4 truck flat was also not done in styrene as Athearn had copied it. PRR semiwell, Erie, PL&LE and Lehigh Valley heavy duty flats were intended to be next.

And way back to the original gondola thread. I could not see the photos well enough to determine what they were. Red Ball N&W "Battleship" coal gon had been offered by Howell Day with embossed foil paper sides then metal. We ran it with cast metal sides. The Red Ball 40 ft composite gon, 4 wheel old time flat/gon and 36 f t wood side gon were done in both metal and styrene sides. The excellent NYC&HR hopper bottom coal gon was only run with die cast metal sides --test shots only were done in styrene pending redesign of the bottom for plastic. This was my favorite Red Ball car after the crane. I know of no paper used in gons by Red Ball though Red Ball ends COULD have been used in paper sided gons since Red Ball did use paper in 3 major forms and sold metal parts to other kit makers (as well as some kit makers "pirating" parts using rubber molds). Likewise, I know of no plastic Red Ball gons until those I listed. Red Ball (M Dale Newton) DID, however make some plastic parts pre 1950's. Tank car domes and billboards are the best known. I am not familiar with the Lehigh brand vintage kits tough I have a 40 ft Lehigh card sided reefer with hard plastic roof. The Red Ball kits I've been mentioning were tooled beyond the "state of thew art" when tooled (beyon d many of today's cars too except the super premium museum quality ones). Much of the mold work was done by John Anderson--later of Cal Scale fame. Wabash Valley inherited precious few Red Ball cars that weren't that caliber. The D&H Cement gon with cement canister containers was one of them. The car's metal sides were poor in my opinion and we only reran it as an "anniversary limited" edition. [Canister lids and car ends-the tougher tooling-- very good].

The molds exist for additional long forgotten cars -- three or four flats alone-- which we never put into production. [Even some Newton or Day apparently never produced--that could be an interesting story in itself]. I normally tried to research the prototypes first and redesign kits (as needed) second- add or revise molds third in an era where i nternet info sources didn't exist and RR technical societies seemed unaware of the cars I inquired about.

Merle Rice

Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs.Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26419	From: denverrails	Date: 7/10/2017
Subject: Vintage models in a donation

The model railroad club to which I belong recently received two donations that included what I think might be vintage models. I have placed photos of these models in a file entitled "Vintage Models".

If you are interested in these pieces, contact me off-line atdim01521@...

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26420	From: Doug Harris	Date: 7/10/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage models in a donation

On 11/07/2017 06:02, dim01521@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> The model railroad club to which I belong recently received two
> donations that included what I think might be vintage models. I have
> placed photos of these models in a file entitled "Vintage Models".
> Wally

Hi Wally - can't pick up this File on the group site - could you please
check your posting, or send me the List direct, or a link?

Much appreciated..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26421	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/10/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage models in a donation

It’s in the photos section. The file name given is the album name.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 5:51 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage models in a donation

On 11/07/2017 06:02, dim01521@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> The model railroad club to which I belong recently received two
> donations that included what I think might be vintage models. I have
> placed photos of these models in a file entitled "Vintage Models".
> Wally

Hi Wally - can't pick up this File on the group site - could you please
check your posting, or send me the List direct, or a link?

Much appreciated..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26422	From: Doug Harris	Date: 7/10/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage models in a donation

On 11/07/2017 11:31, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> It’s in the photos section. The file name given is the album name.
> John Hagen

Ah! Found 'em! Didn't think to look there..

Many Thanks..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26423	From: denverrails	Date: 7/11/2017
Subject: Additional Vintage models

I have posted pictures in the Vintage folder of two more models. One is an Aristo Craft 0-4-0 with its original box and runs well. The other is 2-8-0 which runs very well. I don't know the manufacturer and the original box is long gone.

If you are interested, please contact me off line

dim01521@...

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26424	From: johnhutnick	Date: 7/19/2017
Subject: Mainline Menasha paint color

I may have missed it in earlier discussions. What is the matching paint color for the Mainline green Menasha kit?

If anyone is interested, there is one of these currently on Ebay by mccloud1825.

Thanks for any help.

John Hutnick

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26425	From: prandn	Date: 7/22/2017
Subject: Lindberg Ho scale delrin trucks

Can anyone tell me if Lindberg made their line of trucks in metal prior to the delrin ho scale trucks?

Thank you,

loren martell

Portland, OR 97229

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26426	From: Brad Smith	Date: 7/22/2017
Subject: Re: Lindberg Ho scale delrin trucks

Read the Lindberg article in HO COLLECTOR. if no answer, contact the author.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Jul 21, 2017, at 7:42 PM, saltnpepper69@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Can anyone tell me if Lindberg made their line of trucks in metal prior to the delrin ho scale trucks?
Thank you,

loren martell
Portland, OR 97229

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26427	From: William Shenton	Date: 7/23/2017
Subject: Red Ball Side Dump Hopper or Stone Car Instructions

Attachments :

RB Wood Side Dump-0.jpg I have the sealed pack of parts for this kit but no assembly instructions. I searched on HO Seeker but no information for this kit was found. I have attached a photo of the box that I found in an Ebay listing. I would like a copy of the instructions for this kit. Thanks, Bill Shenton.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26428	From: wmewright	Date: 7/25/2017
Subject: Re: Lindberg Ho scale delrin trucks

When I was in G&G Model Shop in Houston late last week, they had some
Lindberg Trucks for sale.
Bill Wright
Houston, TX

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26429	From: gerard_sr	Date: 7/27/2017
Subject: Re: Red Ball Side Dump Hopper or Stone Car Instructions

Attachments :

Bill,
Your picture didn't get through, but here is what I have of what I think is that kit.
What I have does not look complete, but it's a start for you.
I also have six more semi-complete parts bags, they are w/o the wood pieces.
Let's see if this gets through.
Cordially,
Gerry
http://kitbash.ourpage.com/

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26430	From: Loren Martell	Date: 8/17/2017
Subject: NeedHelpIdentifyingTrucks_Type&Maker

Loren Martell has shared a OneDrive file with you. To view it, click the link below.

WhatAreTheseTrucksAndWhoMakes.jpg

Hello group,

I am hoping that a model railroader from the mid 60's to the mid to late 70's can help identify

the attached sprung ho scale freight trucks. These have metal frames. I appreciate any help offered.

Thank you.

loren martell

Portland, OR 97229

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26431	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 8/17/2017
Subject: Re: NeedHelpIdentifyingTrucks_Type&Maker

They look like Ahearns. They aren'f haevy enough to be Central Vallesy of Silverstreak/Ulrich. The giveaway is the larger holes in the bolster to fit the larger bosson the Athearn underframe.

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 8/16/17, Loren Martell saltnpepper69@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] NeedHelpIdentifyingTrucks_Type&Maker
To: "vintageho@yahoogroups.com" <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 16, 2017, 11:28 PM

Loren Martell has shared a OneDrive file with you. To
view it, click the link below.

WhatAreTheseTrucksAndWhoMakes.jpg

Hello group,

I am hoping that a model railroader from the mid 60's
to the mid to late 70's can help identify
the attached sprung ho scale freight trucks. These have
metal frames. I appreciate any help offered.
Thank you.

loren martell
Portland, OR 97229

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028 --
#yiv9982931028ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mkp #yiv9982931028hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mkp #yiv9982931028ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mkp .yiv9982931028ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mkp .yiv9982931028ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mkp .yiv9982931028ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9982931028ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9982931028ygrp-lc #yiv9982931028hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9982931028ygrp-lc .yiv9982931028ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028activity span
.yiv9982931028underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9982931028 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9982931028 dd.yiv9982931028last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9982931028 dd.yiv9982931028last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9982931028 dd.yiv9982931028last p
span.yiv9982931028yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv9982931028 div.yiv9982931028attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9982931028 div.yiv9982931028attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv9982931028 div.yiv9982931028file-title a, #yiv9982931028
div.yiv9982931028file-title a:active, #yiv9982931028
div.yiv9982931028file-title a:hover, #yiv9982931028
div.yiv9982931028file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9982931028 div.yiv9982931028photo-title a,
#yiv9982931028 div.yiv9982931028photo-title a:active,
#yiv9982931028 div.yiv9982931028photo-title a:hover,
#yiv9982931028 div.yiv9982931028photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9982931028 div#yiv9982931028ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv9982931028ygrp-msg p a span.yiv9982931028yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv9982931028 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9982931028 .yiv9982931028replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv9982931028 input, #yiv9982931028 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv9982931028
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-mlmsg #yiv9982931028logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-msg
p#yiv9982931028attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-reco
#yiv9982931028reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-sponsor #yiv9982931028ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-sponsor #yiv9982931028ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-sponsor #yiv9982931028ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv9982931028 #yiv9982931028ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv9982931028

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26432	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

There is what appears to be a virgin Penn Line k4 Pacific on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Penn-Line-HO-K-4-Pacific-Steam-Engine-Locomotive-w-Tender-Diecast-Kit-/182711779714?hash=item2a8a788182:g:LcwAAOSwacFZchSk

It's beyond my current budget!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26433	From: luvprr2003	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

These do occasionally appear on eBay, Bob. And I'm glad you're impressed as I happen to have 13 Penn Line virgins in my own collection--one of which is a Penn Line 2 motor T-1 in their larger blue and white box. Love to sell any of them but would have to ask about $100 more than what that one is listed for. Maybe in my next life. . . . Oh, and in addition I have at least one of each of every Bowser steam kit--built with virtually every detail that was offered at the time for each one. And each has the "can" motor that was available and adaptable for them then too. And I won't get into the Penn Line Crusader (unpainted w/original box and plans) that I sold to the son of one of the original owners a few years ago.

Whoooeee! LOL

Art Waite

Not all that far from Montoursville and Boytertown, PA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26434	From: trainliker	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

Attachments :

D692202F693744DCA3BA319226109D1C.png

Anybody who sells a lot on eBay knows that things don’t necessarily sell for what the seller wishes. Also, the demand for such vintage things is, to put it delicately, now dwindling.

Most model trains really don’t make a good investment. So the main thing is to enjoy them. If anything, buying “collectable” trains just moves money into an asset that you can later turn back into money. Maybe more money, usually a little less money. If somebody would have just burned through the money anyway, then the trains are sort of a savings account that we resist turning back into cash.

There will always be the occasional item that seems to persist in high demand. But those are a bit rare.

Collectors of postwar Lionel trains have had the same experience where demand peaked, but has been ebbing for some years as baby boomers fade away.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 10:45 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

Whoooeee! LOL

Art Waite

Not all that far from Montoursville and Boytertown, PA

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26435	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

I was in the USAF in Korea in 1953. I bought one of the Penn Line K4s at the base hobby shop. We had a small layout there. In those days the track was hand laid on Tru-Scale milled roadbed. And the rails were BRASS!

I got talked out of it. I got a set of Tenshodo brass FTs. By 1970 the white metal parts in the FTs had crumbled. If I had them today I could replace the drives with Varney diesel drive

When I retired 20 years ago I had most of the Bowser steam kits. They were all super detailed. I got pretty good money for the on eBay. Wish I had them now but I would have no place to run them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 10:45 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

These do occasionally appear on eBay, Bob. And I'm glad you're impressed as I happen to have 13 Penn Line virgins in my own collection--one of which is a Penn Line 2 motor T-1 in their larger blue and white box. Love to sell any of them but would have to ask about $100 more than what that one is listed for. Maybe in my next life. . . . Oh, and in addition I have at least one of each of every Bowser steam kit--built with virtually every detail that was offered at the time for each one. And each has the "can" motor that was available and adaptable for them then too. And I won't get into the Penn Line Crusader (unpainted w/original box and plans) that I sold to the son of one of the original owners a few years ago.

Whoooeee! LOL

Art Waite

Not all that far from Montoursville and Boytertown, PA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26436	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific! [1 Attachment]

Where I live there does not seem to be much, if any, interest in vintage trains. The two local groups are all DCC running on Code83 track. They won't let you run the old stuff unless it's been converted.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:26 AM

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific! [1 Attachment]

Anybody who sells a lot on eBay knows that things don’t necessarily sell for what the seller wishes. Also, the demand for such vintage things is, to put it delicately, now dwindling.

Most model trains really don’t make a good investment. So the main thing is to enjoy them. If anything, buying “collectable” trains just moves money into an asset that you can later turn back into money. Maybe more money, usually a little less money. If somebody would have just burned through the money anyway, then the trains are sort of a savings account that we resist turning back into cash.

There will always be the occasional item that seems to persist in high demand. But those are a bit rare.

Collectors of postwar Lionel trains have had the same experience where demand peaked, but has been ebbing for some years as baby boomers fade away.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 10:45 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

These do occasionally appear on eBay, Bob. And I'm glad you're impressed as I happen to have 13 Penn Line virgins in my own collection--one of which is a Penn Line 2 motor T-1 in their larger blue and white box. Love to sell any of them but would have to ask about $100 more than what that one is listed for. Maybe in my next life. . . . Oh, and in addition I have at least one of each of every Bowser steam kit--built with virtually every detail that was offered at the time for each one. And each has the "can" motor that was available and adaptable for them then too. And I won't get into the Penn Line Crusader (unpainted w/original box and plans) that I sold to the son of one of the original owners a few years ago.

Whoooeee! LOL

Art Waite

Not all that far from Montoursville and Boytertown, PA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26437	From: luvprr2003	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

Right, Bob. Most contemporary modelers are into DCC and are not happy about running analog stuff on their layouts. Here in my retirement community we have a large DC layout and at least one gent who has a garage full of DCC stuff that he's building into an impressive layout. I have my own small DC layout in my own garage on which I run my Penn Line/Bowser items. In addition I am addicted to building vintage HO kits just to keep my 80 year old mind working well. Though I am pretty much of a craftsman and do a good (dare I say great?) job on these pieces, I cannot sell them for anywhere near what I have to pay for them on eBay along with the additional couplers and trucks that they normally require to run well. The possible exception is the La Belle items which can go for a nice price if they're painted especially well-- as some modelers like them for their turn-of-the-century style and are of real wood. The stuff I especially enjoy building are good O scale kits which are larger but which are difficult to find (unless you want to spend really big bucks and build English loco kits from England--which I've also done). Very few people that I'm aware of run 2 rail O gauge anymore. My biggest concern right now is what's going to happen to all these items (in some cases pieces of art as I think of them) after I take the last train out in a few years. I tell people not to depend on loved ones dealing gently with this stuff--- as they may now promise--- as they will have their hands full disposing of your estate when it gets dumped on them.

Art Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26438	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

Art,

What I have for a layout is a 2' by 4' diorama. HO. It can be extended to 2' by 6'.

I just run small stuff like Varney Docksides and Mantua Booters. Sometime Roundhouse "Old Timers". Not room for anything bigger. I do have a couple of Roundhouse switchers.

I just don't want to mess with DCC for these things. 20 years ago I had a full blown DigiTrax system. About 15 years ago I sold it on eBay because I no longer had any use for it.

I used to build a lot of super detailed stuff. In the 90's I built a lot of the Intermountain and Red Caboose cars.

I also built Roundhouse "Old Timer" cars as pseudo Narrow Gauge. They sold well on eBay. I am doing that again. They work well on my small layout.

I think my interest is more in doing the scenery than running trains.

I sure am sorry the Jordan vehicle kits are gone. They are even getting thin on eBay.

I like Campbell's buildings. They are real wood.

And I do build Labelle cars. I have several to do right now. But they are to big to run on my layout and the HOn3 cars don't look right on HO trucks.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Seattle, Wa.
"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"

----- Original Message -----

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 12:20 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

Right, Bob. Most contemporary modelers are into DCC and are not happy about running analog stuff on their layouts. Here in my retirement community we have a large DC layout and at least one gent who has a garage full of DCC stuff that he's building into an impressive layout. I have my own small DC layout in my own garage on which I run my Penn Line/Bowser items. In addition I am addicted to building vintage HO kits just to keep my 80 year old mind working well. Though I am pretty much of a craftsman and do a good (dare I say great?) job on these pieces, I cannot sell them for anywhere near what I have to pay for them on eBay along with the additional couplers and trucks that they normally require to run well. The possible exception is the La Belle items which can go for a nice price if they're painted especially well-- as some modelers like them for their turn-of-the-century style and are of real wood. The stuff I especially enjoy building are good O scale kits which are larger but which are difficult to find (unless you want to spend really big bucks and build English loco kits from England--which I've also done). Very few people that I'm aware of run 2 rail O gauge anymore. My biggest concern right now is what's going to happen to all these items (in some cases pieces of art as I think of them) after I take the last train out in a few years. I tell people not to depend on loved ones dealing gently with this stuff--- as they may now promise--- as they will have their hands full disposing of your estate when it gets dumped on them.

Art Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26439	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

Attachments :

So even if the one on eBay you indicated was half price, you would not go for it because you have no place to run it? I have one that I would sell for $65.00 plus shipping. Guess I will put it together than.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 2:44 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

I got talked out of it. I got a set of Tenshodo brass FTs. By 1970 the white metal parts in the FTs had crumbled. If I had them today I could replace the drives with Varney diesel drive

When I retired 20 years ago I had most of the Bowser steam kits. They were all super detailed. I got pretty good money for the on eBay. Wish I had them now but I would have no place to run them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

These do occasionally appear on eBay, Bob. And I'm glad you're impressed as I happen to have 13 Penn Line virgins in my own collection--one of which is a Penn Line 2 motor T-1 in their larger blue and white box. Love to sell any of them but would have to ask about $100 more than what that one is listed for. Maybe in my next life. . . . Oh, and in addition I have at least one of each of every Bowser steam kit--built with virtually every detail that was offered at the time for each one. And each has the "can" motor that was available and adaptable for them then too. And I won't get into the Penn Line Crusader (unpainted w/original box and plans) that I sold to the son of one of the original owners a few years ago.
Whoooeee! LOL
Art Waite
Not all that far from Montoursville and Boytertown, PA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26440	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

Chuck,

I'd be tempted but I am not doing the PRR anymore. D&RGW and SP.

It's too bad Bowser stopped producing the steam kits.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 1:40 PM

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

So even if the one on eBay you indicated was half price, you would not go for it because you have no place to run it? I have one that I would sell for $65.00 plus shipping. Guess I will put it together than.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 2:44 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

I was in the USAF in Korea in 1953. I bought one of the Penn Line K4s at the base hobby shop. We had a small layout there. In those days the track was hand laid on Tru-Scale milled roadbed. And the rails were BRASS!

I got talked out of it. I got a set of Tenshodo brass FTs. By 1970 the white metal parts in the FTs had crumbled. If I had them today I could replace the drives with Varney diesel drive

When I retired 20 years ago I had most of the Bowser steam kits. They were all super detailed. I got pretty good money for the on eBay. Wish I had them now but I would have no place to run them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 10:45 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

These do occasionally appear on eBay, Bob. And I'm glad you're impressed as I happen to have 13 Penn Line virgins in my own collection--one of which is a Penn Line 2 motor T-1 in their larger blue and white box. Love to sell any of them but would have to ask about $100 more than what that one is listed for. Maybe in my next life. . . . Oh, and in addition I have at least one of each of every Bowser steam kit--built with virtually every detail that was offered at the time for each one. And each has the "can" motor that was available and adaptable for them then too. And I won't get into the Penn Line Crusader (unpainted w/original box and plans) that I sold to the son of one of the original owners a few years ago.

Whoooeee! LOL

Art Waite

Not all that far from Montoursville and Boytertown, PA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26441	From: louis niederlander	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

We still do conventional on code 100 in Bedford Ohio.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 6:47 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26442	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Penn Line K$ Pacific!

In the late 90's I belonged to a module club in Roseville, Ca. It was DC on Code 100. It worked just fine.

But that's no more here!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 4:50 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

We still do conventional on code 100 in Bedford Ohio.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 6:47 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line K$ Pacific!

Where I live there does not seem to be much, if any, interest in vintage trains. The two local groups are all DCC running on Code83 track. They won't let you run the old stuff unless it's been converted.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26445	From: david_helber	Date: 8/30/2017
Subject: Small switchers, DC, Code 100 Mini-Layout

Bob Macklin, in the K$ Pacific thread, said:

What I have for a a layout is a 2' by 4' diorama. HO. It can be extended to 2'x6'.
I just run small stuff like Varney Docksides and Mantua Boosters. Sometime Roundhouse "Old Timers". Not room for anything bigger. I do have a couple of Roundhouse switchers.
Just the sort of layout I've been thinking about building!
Vintage materials and equipment - small tank engines and industrial diesels, sharp turnouts, dense '50s industrial setting, code 100 rail, DC - minimum size switching layout.

I had a running layout decades ago (dang, times goes fast at this end of the lifetime) and already have the equipment and most of the materials sitting in boxes in the garage, though I'll have to re-motor, or at least re-magnet the locos. But I don't want to bother if I'm going to have to reach over and give the engine a nudge every time it passes over a switch or crossing, or manually adjust it when it tries to couple to a car.

Bob, what's been your experience in what works and what doesn't?

Who else has experience (or thoughts) in creating very small workable DC switching layouts, and making one operate reliably with 4-wheel and 6-wheel engines? I don't mind modifying the locos, cars, couplers powerpack or track, but I don't want to get into DCC.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26446	From: david_helber	Date: 8/30/2017
Subject: Re: Small switchers, DC, Code 100 Mini-Layout

All right, I'm through trying to get the first message to display correctly. Yahoo insists on not showing what I say after I quote Bob, instead it just lumps my own words with "message history".

Apologies for the duplication, to anyone who got the first attempts that I ended up deleting when I saw how Yahoo displayed them.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26447	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2017
Subject: Re: Small switchers, DC, Code 100 Mini-Layout

Looks fine to me. Your message displays right under Bob's post, just as you intended -- twice (two separate messages). Your mention of possibly having to re-motor or re-magnetized the existing motor has lead me in recent years to avoid most Penn Line steam locomotives available -- even if in kit form -- in favor of similar but newer Bowser engines, only because I'm suspect of the older locomotives' motors weakening. I don't know how valid this suspicion is or even if magnet weakening is more random, with even some newer motors weakening while some older motors remain strong. It might be good to hear others' opinions on this, if time is not the only enemy to motor magnets' longevity.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 8/30/2017 1:14:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

All right, I'm through trying to get the first message to display correctly. Yahoo insists on not showing what I say after I quote Bob, instead it just lumps my own words with "message history".

Apologies for the duplication, to anyone who got the first attempts that I ended up deleting when I saw how Yahoo displayed them. You mention of

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26448	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 8/30/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Hi D,

Nothing wrong with what you want, you can run trains and do some operations as well. Here is one example you can use to elaborate with if you wish.

https://books.google.com/books?id=orbWT5ZnLOcC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=koester+operations+wingate&source=bl&ots=Xjq4FXC8Qy&sig=s9EY-KoGbj2xHR7609jq2GSY-LA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9sJquv__VAhUJ6yYKHU6yB7UQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=koester%20operations%20wingate&f=false

If you already have code 100 nickel silver track, go ahead and use it. But if you don't have it or have brass track then take a look at code 83 nickel silver. Brass track is just way too problematic, you would spend half your time pushing the locomotives or cleaning track.

Now, getting back to why I suggest code 83 is because most code 83 turnouts have electrical frogs rather than insulated frogs. You may be able to find them in code 100, but may be more difficult or expensive (eg. Peco). The little 4 wheel switchers will require all wheel pickup, I think most already do that, but if not, you want to put that in. In order for them not to stall on a frog, you definitely want powered/electrified frogs controlled vi the turnout mechanism. If you use hand throws, it will be a bit more difficult, but doable. If you use Tortoise, then no problem at all. You may wish to consider scratchbuilding your own turnouts and if you do, code 83 is MUCH easier to file and you can make two code 83 turnouts in the time it takes to make one code 100. I use code 100 in my hidden staging and built 3 code 100 turnouts, whew! I built about 30 or so code 83 turnouts and don't feel like a broke a sweat. Besides code 83 just looks nicer.

If you are not going DCC, then the motors in your locos are most likely just fine. As to power packs, there are many available in the used market these days pretty reasonably priced at train shows or on eBay. I wouldn't spend the bucks on a new one.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of dnhelber@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 12:45 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Bob Macklin said in the K$ Pacific thread,

What I have for a layout is a 2' by 4' diorama. HO. It can be extended to 2' by 6'.

I just run small stuff like Varney Docksides and Mantua Booters. Sometime Roundhouse "Old Timers". Not room for anything bigger. I do have a couple of Roundhouse switchers.

Just the sort of layout I've been thinking about building!

Vintage materials and equipment - small tank engines and industrial diesels, sharp turnouts, dense '50s industrial setting, code 100 rail, DC.

I had a running layout decades ago (dang, times goes fast at this end of the lifetime) and already have the equipment and most of the materials sitting in boxes in the garage, though I'll have to re-motor, or at least re-magnet the locos. But I don't want to bother if I'm going to have to reach over and give the engine a nudge every time it passes over a switch or crossing, or adjust it when it tries to couple to a car.

Bob, what's been your experience in what works (and advice on what not to do)?

Who else has experience (or thoughts) in creating very small workable DC switching layouts, and making one operate reliably with 4-wheel and 6-wheel engines? I don't mind modifying the locos, cars, powerpack or track but I don't want to get into DCC.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26449	From: louis niederlander	Date: 8/30/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I would suggest you look here for small layouts....

http://www.carendt.com/

Louis N

Carendt.com - Micro/Small layouts for model railroads

www.carendt.com

Joe Fugate, from Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine featured Carendt.com with a full fetched article in the September 2014 issue of the Magazine!

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 5:49 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Hi D,

Nothing wrong with what you want, you can run trains and do some operations as well. Here is one example you can use to elaborate with if you wish.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Bob Macklin said in the K$ Pacific thread,

What I have for a layout is a 2' by 4' diorama. HO. It can be extended to 2' by 6'.

I just run small stuff like Varney Docksides and Mantua Booters. Sometime Roundhouse "Old Timers". Not room for anything bigger. I do have a couple of Roundhouse switchers.

Just the sort of layout I've been thinking about building!

Vintage materials and equipment - small tank engines and industrial diesels, sharp turnouts, dense '50s industrial setting, code 100 rail, DC.

I had a running layout decades ago (dang, times goes fast at this end of the lifetime) and already have the equipment and most of the materials sitting in boxes in the garage, though I'll have to re-motor, or at least re-magnet the locos. But I don't want to bother if I'm going to have to reach over and give the engine a nudge every time it passes over a switch or crossing, or adjust it when it tries to couple to a car.

Bob, what's been your experience in what works (and advice on what not to do)?

Who else has experience (or thoughts) in creating very small workable DC switching layouts, and making one operate reliably with 4-wheel and 6-wheel engines? I don't mind modifying the locos, cars, powerpack or track but I don't want to get into DCC.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26450	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 8/30/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Don't make the curves too tight!

My primary interest is pseudo narrow gauge. I use Roundhouse "Old Timer" locomotives with Roundhouse "Old Timer" cars decorated like Rio Grande narrow gauge units.

I also use Varney (and Bowser) Docksides and Mantua 0-4-0 locomotives.

There just not enough room for larger stuff.

I think my primary interest is in the scenery. I am doing an early 20th Century Arizona mining town. I spent several years living in Southern Arizona and I know something about the copper mining.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: dnhelber@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 9:45 AM

Subject: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Bob Macklin said in the K$ Pacific thread,

What I have for a layout is a 2' by 4' diorama. HO. It can be extended to 2' by 6'.

I just run small stuff like Varney Docksides and Mantua Booters. Sometime Roundhouse "Old Timers". Not room for anything bigger. I do have a couple of Roundhouse switchers.

Just the sort of layout I've been thinking about building!

Vintage materials and equipment - small tank engines and industrial diesels, sharp turnouts, dense '50s industrial setting, code 100 rail, DC.

I had a running layout decades ago (dang, times goes fast at this end of the lifetime) and already have the equipment and most of the materials sitting in boxes in the garage, though I'll have to re-motor, or at least re-magnet the locos. But I don't want to bother if I'm going to have to reach over and give the engine a nudge every time it passes over a switch or crossing, or adjust it when it tries to couple to a car.

Bob, what's been your experience in what works (and advice on what not to do)?

Who else has experience (or thoughts) in creating very small workable DC switching layouts, and making one operate reliably with 4-wheel and 6-wheel engines? I don't mind modifying the locos, cars, powerpack or track but I don't want to get into DCC.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26451	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 8/30/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26452	From: Larry	Date: 8/30/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Jake,

Keep searching. I would be interested if no one else is.

Larry Miller III

From: "Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Hi Don,
Somewhere around here, (I'm looking), I have plans and descriptions
for a 2' x 12', folding layout that a couple of navy guys built during
Korea, so that thery could model while on sea duty. It folds to a
2x4' package. Used vintage 50's trackage and motive power. Happy to
keep looking if you would like it.
Jake B.

------------------------------------
Posted by: Jacob Bechtel <jhbivusa@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com
vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26453	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Larry, et al,
I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles, a 1950 RMC for a
2 x 8 switching layout, a 1953 article of the folding, seagoing layout
( it used #6 TO and large radius curves) and a later MR article on a 2
x 8 "Round about" with switching and heavy senery emphasis.
I'd be happy to email them to anyone who requests them.
I entered HO modeling in 1948 and by my teenage years had built
several Penn Line, Varney, MD, and Bowser locos. Dad and his machinist
brother taught me and my cousin how to balance armatures and quarter
drivers, etc. I still have a couple of my early efforts.
For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.

On 8/30/17, Larry mrncartoon@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Jake,Keep searching. I would be interested if no one else is.Larry Miller
> III
>
> From: "Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO]"
> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100
>
> Hi Don,
> Somewhere around here, (I'm looking), I have plans and descriptions
> for a 2' x 12', folding layout that a couple of navy guys built during
> Korea, so that thery could model while on sea duty. It folds to a
> 2x4' package. Used vintage 50's trackage and motive power. Happy to
> keep looking if you would like it.
> Jake B.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Jacob Bechtel <jhbivusa@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26454	From: david_helber	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Jacob,

Thank you so much for finding those articles. My mail software doesn't recognize the partial email address that is in your message. I'd very much appreciate if you could send them to me at

dnhelber@...

If Yahoo insists on truncating my email address and you find you can't use it, it is:

dnhelberATgmail.com

(Just replace the AT with @)

Thanks once again.

-- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26455	From: david_helber	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Louis,

Thanks for suggesting the Micro Layouts page. I had forgotten about it (that happens a lot), even though I used to go to it when it was new. I'm sure there will be something there that will be useful.

Cheers,

-- D

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <l_niederlander@...> wrote :

I would suggest you look here for small layouts....

http://www.carendt.com/

Louis N

Carendt.com - Micro/Small layouts for model railroads

www.carendt.com

Joe Fugate, from Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine featured Carendt.com with a full fetched article in the September 2014 issue of the Magazine!

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 5:49 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Hi D,

Nothing wrong with what you want, you can run trains and do some operations as well. Here is one example you can use to elaborate with if you wish.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Bob Macklin said in the K$ Pacific thread,

What I have for a layout is a 2' by 4' diorama. HO. It can be extended to 2' by 6'.

I just run small stuff like Varney Docksides and Mantua Booters. Sometime Roundhouse "Old Timers". Not room for anything bigger. I do have a couple of Roundhouse switchers.

Just the sort of layout I've been thinking about building!
Vintage materials and equipment - small tank engines and industrial diesels, sharp turnouts, dense '50s industrial setting, code 100 rail, DC.

I had a running layout decades ago (dang, times goes fast at this end of the lifetime) and already have the equipment and most of the materials sitting in boxes in the garage, though I'll have to re-motor, or at least re-magnet the locos. But I don't want to bother if I'm going to have to reach over and give the engine a nudge every time it passes over a switch or crossing, or adjust it when it tries to couple to a car.

Bob, what's been your experience in what works (and advice on what not to do)?

Who else has experience (or thoughts) in creating very small workable DC switching layouts, and making one operate reliably with 4-wheel and 6-wheel engines? I don't mind modifying the locos, cars, powerpack or track but I don't want to get into DCC.
-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26456	From: Brad Smith	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Mike, I would love to have a copy.

Brad

corlissbs@...

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Aug 31, 2017, at 7:33 AM, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Larry, et al,
I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles, a 1950 RMC for a
2 x 8 switching layout, a 1953 article of the folding, seagoing layout
( it used #6 TO and large radius curves) and a later MR article on a 2
x 8 "Round about" with switching and heavy senery emphasis.
I'd be happy to email them to anyone who requests them.
I entered HO modeling in 1948 and by my teenage years had built
several Penn Line, Varney, MD, and Bowser locos. Dad and his machinist
brother taught me and my cousin how to balance armatures and quarter
drivers, etc. I still have a couple of my early efforts.
For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.

On 8/30/17, Larry mrncartoon@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> Jake,Keep searching. I would be interested if no one else is.Larry Miller
> III
>
> From: "Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO]"
> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100
>
> Hi Don,
> Somewhere around here, (I'm looking), I have plans and descriptions
> for a 2' x 12', folding layout that a couple of navy guys built during
> Korea, so that thery could model while on sea duty. It folds to a
> 2x4' package. Used vintage 50's trackage and motive power. Happy to
> keep looking if you would like it.
> Jake B.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Jacob Bechtel <jhbivusa@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26457	From: david_helber	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Thanks, Vic.

Koester's book looks like it will be useful. I may actually have it - somewhere. (I continued to buy model RR books long after I ceased to be an active modeler or runner).

Though I'd like to keep as much as possible to vintage materials, I will draw the line at brass track. I'll definitely use Nickel Silver. (Gosh, maybe I could paint the sides brass for a more authentic vintage look. - Just a joke.)

I had assumed I'd have to have live-frog turnouts. And might have to build them.

I've even wondered about building closing-frog turnouts, like some early HO designs, or Rapido's N-scale turnouts. Many years ago, I built a whole N-scale switching layout with state-of-the-art Peco turnouts. It was worthless because small engines could not be induced to make it over the insulated frogs. The next one I built using the old toylike Rapido turnouts, and it worked great! Pivoted-point, closing-frog design. I'll gladly give up prototype look for reliable operation of small engines.

I had no idea it was substantially easier to build turnouts in 83 than in 100. I had planned on Code 100 because I have a fair amount of German, British and older American equipment with the deep flanges. I know they're hopeless on Code 70, not sure about Code 83, but probably a problem. But it occurs to me that this layout is really not built for them, so maybe I ought to leave the door open to Code 83. If live-frog turnouts are easier to get in 83, that's worth looking into. Many thanks.

All wheel pickup is a clear must-have, but I''m wondering if pickup shoes (track sliders) would also be necessary for really reliable operation, or might even let me get away with insulated frog turnouts (which I already have). The reduced traction wouldn't be critical to switchers who are only moving a few cars at a time. I guess only experimentation would tell.

The magnets in my Athearn RDC have weakened over the years to where it is useless, so I'd bet my 0-4-2 is the same way, and the Mantua Plymouths and tank-engines probably also, if not so much. For $5 or so an engine, I can put in neodymium magnets; over on the Repower and Regear group, they say it can sometimes fix engines that were poor runners even when new. Or was it on this forum that I read that? Sorry, memory ... gone.

Powerpacks is another place I'll probably give up vintage equipment for something (somewhat) more modern, though I won't go to DCC. i'm too old to be taught those new tricks; the little switchers don't have much room for a module, and would require full remotoring of multiple engines. DC's fine; I understand it. I'd love to use my lovely old Marnold controller panels, but they'd be as big as the layout. I also have a couple of Variacs that are tempting, but wouldn't have the pulse-power component. So I'll probably end up using MRC's Tech-whichevers or their cheap-sound-at-the-throttle pack that I already own.

Thanks again for the advice. If you have more thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

Cheers,

-- D

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <bitlerisvj@...> wrote :

Hi D,

Nothing wrong with what you want, you can run trains and do some operations as well. Here is one example you can use to elaborate with if you wish.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26458	From: david_helber	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Hi, Bob,

Thanks for the help. You said:

-- Don't make the curves too tight.
Curves, ah yes. In spite of the fact that everyone thinks the little tank engines are great for sharp switches and tight curves, I've always thought that they were worse than tender engines or some diesels. Sure their short wheelbases will make it around very tight curves, but their bodies extend so far in front of and behind the wheels, that they really have a lot of overhang on curves. Their couplers are swung so far out that they try to force the first car's wheels tightly against the outside rail of the curve, making derailments more likely (even worse if the car has truck-mounted couplers).

I'll probably make this layout just a back and forth switching layout in a 12-18" width, with low relief flats in back, and even between tracks. I'm tempted, though, to try a 24"-wide layout with a 10" radius curve for an oval around the switching area and behind the rear building flats. I think this is pretty hopeless with horn-hooks or any knuckle couplers, but the old Mantua loop couplers might have enough gathering range (side-to-side area in which the couplers will reliably couple and remain coupled in a curve) for that tight a turn. And things don't get much more vintage-retro than Mantua loop couplers. I found a bunch of them at a train show some years ago, and unlike most things, I know exactly where I put them ... I think.

I guess experimentation will tell - unless someone has tried it and can say for sure "It doesn't work."

-- David

=================================

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <macklinbob@...> wrote :

Don't make the curves too tight!

My primary interest is pseudo narrow gauge. I use Roundhouse "Old Timer" locomotives with Roundhouse "Old Timer" cars decorated like Rio Grande narrow gauge units.

I also use Varney (and Bowser) Docksides and Mantua 0-4-0 locomotives.

There just not enough room for larger stuff.

I think my primary interest is in the scenery. I am doing an early 20th Century Arizona mining town. I spent several years living in Southern Arizona and I know something about the copper mining.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: dnhelber@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 9:45 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Bob Macklin said in the K$ Pacific thread,
What I have for a layout is a 2' by 4' diorama. HO. It can be extended to 2' by 6'.

I just run small stuff like Varney Docksides and Mantua Booters. Sometime Roundhouse "Old Timers". Not room for anything bigger. I do have a couple of Roundhouse switchers.

Just the sort of layout I've been thinking about building!
Vintage materials and equipment - small tank engines and industrial diesels, sharp turnouts, dense '50s industrial setting, code 100 rail, DC.

I had a running layout decades ago (dang, times goes fast at this end of the lifetime) and already have the equipment and most of the materials sitting in boxes in the garage, though I'll have to re-motor, or at least re-magnet the locos. But I don't want to bother if I'm going to have to reach over and give the engine a nudge every time it passes over a switch or crossing, or adjust it when it tries to couple to a car.

Bob, what's been your experience in what works (and advice on what not to do)?

Who else has experience (or thoughts) in creating very small workable DC switching layouts, and making one operate reliably with 4-wheel and 6-wheel engines? I don't mind modifying the locos, cars, powerpack or track but I don't want to get into DCC.
-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26459	From: willard seehorn	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Harold Minkwitz had a number of articles that might help. This one talks about remotoring with an inexpensive motor and making wheel contacts (for electrical pickup) from Kadee coupler springs.

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1879/bachmann_4-4-0/sound/

Willard

-----Original Message-----
From: "dnhelber@... [vintageHO]"

Thanks, Vic.

All wheel pickup is a clear must-have, but I''m wondering if pickup shoes (track sliders) would also be necessary for really reliable operation, or might even let me get away with insulated frog turnouts (which I already have). The reduced traction wouldn't be critical to switchers who are only moving a few cars at a time. I guess only experimentation would tell.

The magnets in my Athearn RDC have weakened over the years to where it is useless, so I'd bet my 0-4-2 is the same way, and the Mantua Plymouths and tank-engines probably also, if not so much. For $5 or so an engine, I can put in neodymium magnets; over on the Repower and Regear group, they say it can sometimes fix engines that were poor runners even when new. Or was it on this forum that I read that? Sorry, memory ... gone.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26460	From: Ola_Sj=c3=b6blom	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Same for me I got a mail that my answer could be delivered.

How do I do

Ola

Den 2017-08-31 kl. 17:37, skrev dnhelber@... [vintageHO]:

Jacob,

Thank you so much for finding those articles. My mail software doesn't recognize the partial email address that is in your message. I'd very much appreciate if you could send them to me at

dnhelber@...

If Yahoo insists on truncating my email address and you find you can't use it, it is:

dnhelberATgmail.com

(Just replace the AT with @)

Thanks once again.

-- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26461	From: Doug Harris	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Larry, et al,
> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.

Hi Jacob.

Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..

I'm 79 today!

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26462	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I'm in! Almost 75, but intend to stay in this stuff to the
end...................................................
Dennis

On 8/31/2017 6:14 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>> Larry, et al,
>> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
>> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
>> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.
> Hi Jacob.
>
> Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..
>
> I'm 79 today!
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26463	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

As a mere child at 74, I’m in.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 11:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I'm in! Almost 75, but intend to stay in this stuff to the
end...................................................
Dennis

On 8/31/2017 6:14 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>> Larry, et al,
>> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
>> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
>> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.
> Hi Jacob.
>
> Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..
>
> I'm 79 today!
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26464	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

The problem with small trains and age is losing parts because of eye and hand problems.

G Scale is much better for OLD FARTS! "G" stands for GANPA!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:31 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I'm in! Almost 75, but intend to stay in this stuff to the
end...................................................
Dennis

On 8/31/2017 6:14 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>> Larry, et al,
>> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
>> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
>> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.
> Hi Jacob.
>
> Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..
>
> I'm 79 today!
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26465	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 8/31/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Gee, at 70 you make me feel like a baby

Don
--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 9/1/17, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 1, 2017, 12:05 AM

As a mere child at
74, I’m in.John
Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 11:32
PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small
Switchers, DC, Code 100 I'm in! Almost 75, but
intend to stay in this stuff to the
end...................................................
Dennis

On
8/31/2017 6:14 PM, Doug Harris digbee@...
[vintageHO] wrote:
> On 1/09/2017 00:33,
Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@...
[vintageHO] wrote:
>> Larry, et al,
>> I have found them! I have pdf copies
of 3 articles,
>> For any interested,
my email is "jhbibusa@..."
- it is also as
>> slow as I am as I
approach MY 80's.
> Hi Jacob.
>
> Perhaps we should
form a geriatric branch of this group..
>
> I'm 79 today!
>

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872 --
#yiv3614718872ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mkp #yiv3614718872hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mkp #yiv3614718872ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mkp .yiv3614718872ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mkp .yiv3614718872ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mkp .yiv3614718872ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3614718872ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3614718872ygrp-lc #yiv3614718872hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3614718872ygrp-lc .yiv3614718872ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872activity span
.yiv3614718872underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3614718872 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3614718872 dd.yiv3614718872last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3614718872 dd.yiv3614718872last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3614718872 dd.yiv3614718872last p
span.yiv3614718872yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv3614718872 div.yiv3614718872attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3614718872 div.yiv3614718872attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv3614718872 div.yiv3614718872file-title a, #yiv3614718872
div.yiv3614718872file-title a:active, #yiv3614718872
div.yiv3614718872file-title a:hover, #yiv3614718872
div.yiv3614718872file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3614718872 div.yiv3614718872photo-title a,
#yiv3614718872 div.yiv3614718872photo-title a:active,
#yiv3614718872 div.yiv3614718872photo-title a:hover,
#yiv3614718872 div.yiv3614718872photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3614718872 div#yiv3614718872ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv3614718872ygrp-msg p a span.yiv3614718872yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv3614718872 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv3614718872 .yiv3614718872replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv3614718872 input, #yiv3614718872 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv3614718872
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-mlmsg #yiv3614718872logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-msg
p#yiv3614718872attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-reco
#yiv3614718872reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-sponsor #yiv3614718872ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-sponsor #yiv3614718872ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-sponsor #yiv3614718872ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv3614718872 #yiv3614718872ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv3614718872

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26466	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/1/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

You can count me in -- at 78 yrs old (in June).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 8/31/2017 9:17:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> Larry, et al,
> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.

Hi Jacob.

Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..

I'm 79 today!

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26467	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 9/1/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Hi Doug,
Seems like many of us are in that realm. I think that 2 big
problems start showing up after 70 - failing eyesight and fine motor
skills. Projects that used to be one nighters now take weeks. I have
more eye surgery coming in Oct. so don't know how much longer I'll be
able to model. Depth perception is already a problem. . . .

Cheers,
Jake B.

On 8/31/17, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>> Larry, et al,
>> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
>> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
>> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.
>
> Hi Jacob.
>
> Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..
>
> I'm 79 today!
>
> --
> Cheers.
>
> Doug Harris
> Cambridge, New Zealand
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Doug Harris <digbee@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26468	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 9/1/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I have started working on my small stuff by using an aluminum broiler pan with a piece of green felt in it.

That way when (NOT IF) I drop a part it does not get lost in the carpet!

I'm 83. I got my first Varney Dockside in October 1946 for my 12th birthday.

We used BRASS TRACK then and we didn't know any better!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, September 01, 2017 9:32 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Hi Doug,
Seems like many of us are in that realm. I think that 2 big
problems start showing up after 70 - failing eyesight and fine motor
skills. Projects that used to be one nighters now take weeks. I have
more eye surgery coming in Oct. so don't know how much longer I'll be
able to model. Depth perception is already a problem. . . .

Cheers,
Jake B.

On 8/31/17, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>> Larry, et al,
>> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
>> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
>> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.
>
> Hi Jacob.
>
> Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..
>
> I'm 79 today!
>
> --
> Cheers.
>
> Doug Harris
> Cambridge, New Zealand
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Doug Harris <digbee@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26469	From: Larry	Date: 9/1/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I don't know if being the youngster at almost 62 and still working, that I would qualify. :(

Larry Miller III

On 8/31/2017 6:14 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>> Larry, et al,
>> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
>> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
>> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.
> Hi Jacob.
>
> Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..
>
> I'm 79 today!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26470	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 9/1/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I built my first dockside about '48, after getting AF in '46 & '47.

The brass track WAS better than the untreated steel rail though!

Jake B.

On 9/1/17, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> I have started working on my small stuff by using an aluminum broiler pan
> with a piece of green felt in it.
>
> That way when (NOT IF) I drop a part it does not get lost in the carpet!
>
> I'm 83. I got my first Varney Dockside in October 1946 for my 12th
> birthday.
>
> We used BRASS TRACK then and we didn't know any better!
>
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@...
> [vintageHO]<mailto:jhbivusa@...%20[vintageHO]>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2017 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100
>
>
>
> Hi Doug,
> Seems like many of us are in that realm. I think that 2 big
> problems start showing up after 70 - failing eyesight and fine motor
> skills. Projects that used to be one nighters now take weeks. I have
> more eye surgery coming in Oct. so don't know how much longer I'll be
> able to model. Depth perception is already a problem. . . .
>
> Cheers,
> Jake B.
>
> On 8/31/17, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]
> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>>> Larry, et al,
>>> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
>>> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
>>> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.
>>
>> Hi Jacob.
>>
>> Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..
>>
>> I'm 79 today!
>>
>> --
>> Cheers.
>>
>> Doug Harris
>> Cambridge, New Zealand
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>> Posted by: Doug Harris <digbee@...>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26471	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/1/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I am considering HF scale,

Its scale is 15 inches to the foot.

The H stands for HUGE. Can’t remember what the F stands for……

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2017 12:32 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

The problem with small trains and age is losing parts because of eye and hand problems.

G Scale is much better for OLD FARTS! "G" stands for GANPA!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (17)

https://imgur.com/JZ31p0a

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26472	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/1/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Doug,

Happy Birthday, and here's wishing you many, many more of them!

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 8/31/2017 9:17:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> Larry, et al,
> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.

Hi Jacob.

Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..

I'm 79 today!

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26473	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/1/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

On 2/09/2017 09:40, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Doug,
> Happy Birthday, and here's wishing you many, many more of them!
> Ray Wetzel

Thank You Ray! Nice thunderstorms here for my birthday, very quiet day
otherwise - next year will be the big one..

We stirred up a bit of interest there though..

I'm about to get some new glasses, recently ordered a magnifying visor
and head lamp, I need hearing aids, and may have another bit of my bowel
removed shortly - and my prostate has already gone..

Now, what were we talking about??

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26474	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/1/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

On 2/09/2017 05:14, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I have started working on my small stuff by using an aluminum broiler pan with a piece of green felt in it.
> That way when (NOT IF) I drop a part it does not get lost in the carpet!
> I'm 83.
> Bob Macklin

Hi Bob.

That's a good idea..

A jeweler's/watchmaker's apron is useful, too - comes right across the
workbench and ties up somehow around your neck, so any dropped
parts/diamonds are caught in it.

Haven't seen one in use since one of my friends was doing a watchmaker
apprenticeship about 60 years ago..

My new train room has a special close-pile carpet, also for the same
reasons.

Small parts grow wings in mid-air, and long-pile carpets eat ball bearings!

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26475	From: david_helber	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Watchmaker's Bench

In the Small Switchers, Code 100, DC thread, the subject drifted onto the problems that come when old guys work on little trains - mostly eye and muscle coordination difficulties, and how to overcome them.

Bob Mackin mentioned the work tray:

I have started working on my small stuff by using an aluminum broiler pan with a piece of green felt in it.
That way when (NOT IF) I drop a part it does not get lost in the carpet!
Doug Harris mentioned the watchmaker's apron:
A jeweler's/watchmaker's apron is useful, too - comes right across the
workbench and ties up somehow around your neck, so any dropped
parts/diamonds are caught in it.

Haven't seen one in use since one of my friends was doing a watchmaker
apprenticeship about 60 years ago..
I'd like to mention the watchmaker's bench.
[If the images below don't show up, or the links don't work, you can find the photos in the Watchmaker's Desk album in the PHOTOS section]

The traditional watchmaker's bench was designed to steady the craftsman's hands in doing fine work. But you don't have to buy one to benefit from the technique.

https://i.imgur.com/lJFp5Jf.jpg

The watchmaker's bench's two main features are a very high work surface and a pull-out catch-tray for dropped parts. The catch-tray is often replaced by an apron, attached to the bench and tied to the watchmaker's body, or vice versa.

The work-surface is usually just below chin-height for the seated watchmaker. This lets him rest his wrists and hands on the edge of the work surface for rock-steady two-handed work right under his eyes or magnifier.

Since I do most of my modeling work on the dining table, I have my own temporary variant. I'm often too lazy to get it out, but every time I do, I'm glad I did.

https://i.imgur.com/t1tY2G9.jpg

I found this wooden lap-desk or monitor stand or whatever it is at a garage sale. It's about 7" tall. The plastic box slid into the storage space holds tools and supplies.

https://i.imgur.com/06CrXfY.jpg

I'm wearing a magnifier that clips onto my glasses and the work is the right height for me to rest my wrists or hands on the edge while I use a toothpick to clean up the silver paint edge on this HO Porsche.

https://imgur.com/bGMWf0M

Note that the bench steadily supports the hands and one little finger is braced against the opposite hand for a solid three-point support.

I have played with making a catch-apron, but for me, it was more trouble than it was worth.

Rig up something to give the high work surface a try. I think you'll be surprised at what an improvement it makes for model building and detail painting.

-- D
Yes, that is an "HO" slotcar I'm working on, not a train. Sorry.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26476	From: david_helber	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I hope nobody minds, but I started a new topic, Watchmaker's Bench, on the subject of overcoming age-related problems in vision and steadiness, and my solution to it.

-- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26477	From: david_helber	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

Here is a current-manufacture watchmaker's bench.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26478	From: hornbymeccano	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

Nice piece, David.

Any idea on price? I can see $600, but I may be miles out..

I use a normal height workbench at the moment, which I can stand at, but I also use an adjustable height pivoting office chair to sit on to get down to my desired working height for close-up work

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26479	From: david_helber	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

Doug,

You're not far off, though I just added it as a random picture from the web to show what a watchmaker's bench looks like, in full.

I looked it up again for you. That bench is $675 plus freight from http://www.jewelerssupplies.com/Watchmaker-Bench.html.

My $3 monitor stand (if that's what it is), was a much better deal.

-- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26480	From: maryinvt2	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Bob,
I was beginning to think I was the elder here at 79 until I read your post. Hey that is a great idea using that pan. I have all of those problems (i.e. dropping small parts, trying to see close -up, etc.). One thing I am blessed with is not having any shakes in my hands otherwise I would surely have to give up on this wonderful hobby of ours. Just yesterday I was able to successfully install an LED headlight in an old IHC steamer so I guess I am still with it. Trying to install a Kadee coupler spring is another matter. That's where your pan idea would come in handy.
All the best,
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26481	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Richard,

Just a hint/suggest for those Kadee coupler springs that have a mind of their own and prefer to wander off into some unknown corner. I believe, if I recall correctly (???), that it was written in the American Beauty passenger truck instructions to thread a length of sewing thread through the length of the spring. In this way, if the spring went flying, the piece of thread would go with it to be easily found. While Kadee coupler springs are even smaller yet than a truck spring, the thread should still not interfere with its installation and can be easily slipped out after the spring's in place. You could even tie both ends of the thread together so the spring couldn't slip off one end of it, even though it's not likely to do (but Murphy's Law always makes it more likely), and then cut the thread after the installing the spring and slip it out (carefully).

Ray Wetzel

n a message dated 9/2/2017 10:37:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Bob,
I was beginning to think I was the elder here at 79 until I read your post. Hey that is a great idea using that pan. I have all of those problems (i.e. dropping small parts, trying to see close -up, etc.). One thing I am blessed with is not having any shakes in my hands otherwise I would surely have to give up on this wonderful hobby of ours. Just yesterday I was able to successfully install an LED headlight in an old IHC steamer so I guess I am still with it. Trying to install a Kadee coupler spring is another matter. That's where your pan idea would come in handy.
All the best,
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26482	From: luvprr2003	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

If you all are seriously considering a jeweler's bench as shown in that photo you must be one heck of a neat modeler. The work area is so small that you would have to constantly be putting away tools, parts, paints, etc. as you use them and then getting the same out of drawers again as needed. When we moved to out present retirement community I ordered (for $700) a large (and extremely heavy) workbench with metal drawers and solid wooden top. They had to deliver it on skids and required assembly. The top is very wide and deep and allows me to keep commonly used tools, small drill press, box of drill bits, power supply for testing locos, kit directions, and lots and lots of little items that I need to have handy as I build a kit. As it is I still have tiny items happily heading for the floor on occasion (and I think some are still rolling along somewhere on the basement floor back in our previous home). However, if you desire to have a constantly arranged and ideally tidy work area--as I've seen in some people's pics over the years, I suppose that's fine. But I'd go nuts with something that cute and small. . . .

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26483	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

BTW:

MicroMark has a LED lighting system to put on an Opt. A friend of mine has one and it works very well.

I need to get one!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: rh@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 7:37 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Bob,
I was beginning to think I was the elder here at 79 until I read your post. Hey that is a great idea using that pan. I have all of those problems (i.e. dropping small parts, trying to see close -up, etc.). One thing I am blessed with is not having any shakes in my hands otherwise I would surely have to give up on this wonderful hobby of ours. Just yesterday I was able to successfully install an LED headlight in an old IHC steamer so I guess I am still with it. Trying to install a Kadee coupler spring is another matter. That's where your pan idea would come in handy.
All the best,
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26484	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

That's "OptoVisor"!

STUPID SPELL CHECKER!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 9:45 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

BTW:

MicroMark has a LED lighting system to put on an Opt. A friend of mine has one and it works very well.

I need to get one!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: rh@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 7:37 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Bob,
I was beginning to think I was the elder here at 79 until I read your post. Hey that is a great idea using that pan. I have all of those problems (i.e. dropping small parts, trying to see close -up, etc.). One thing I am blessed with is not having any shakes in my hands otherwise I would surely have to give up on this wonderful hobby of ours. Just yesterday I was able to successfully install an LED headlight in an old IHC steamer so I guess I am still with it. Trying to install a Kadee coupler spring is another matter. That's where your pan idea would come in handy.
All the best,
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26485	From: louis niederlander	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Well I'm 66 and still working. Maybe this is the Kid's Club section. 😊

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Larry mrncartoon@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 5:18 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I don't know if being the youngster at almost 62 and still working, that I would qualify. :(

Larry Miller III

On 8/31/2017 6:14 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> On 1/09/2017 00:33, Jacob Bechtel

jhbivusa@... [vintageHO] wrote:

>> Larry, et al,
>> I have found them! I have pdf copies of 3 articles,
>> For any interested, my email is "jhbibusa@..." - it is also as
>> slow as I am as I approach MY 80's.
> Hi Jacob.
>
> Perhaps we should form a geriatric branch of this group..
>
> I'm 79 today!

>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26486	From: Brad Smith	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

I really love this one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Led-Light-Attachment-for-Optivisor-/182493497601?epid=710138755&hash=item2a7d75c901:g:-BkAAOSwB-1YzIZW

Brad Smith (70 years old and still modeling in N scale.)

In a message dated 9/2/2017 11:45:38 AM Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wriI tes:

BTW:

MicroMark has a LED lighting system to put on an Opt. A friend of mine has one and it works very well.

I need to get one!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: rh@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 7:37 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

Bob,
I was beginning to think I was the elder here at 79 until I read your post. Hey that is a great idea using that pan. I have all of those problems (i.e. dropping small parts, trying to see close -up, etc.). One thing I am blessed with is not having any shakes in my hands otherwise I would surely have to give up on this wonderful hobby of ours. Just yesterday I was able to successfully install an LED headlight in an old IHC steamer so I guess I am still with it. Trying to install a Kadee coupler spring is another matter. That's where your pan idea would come in handy.
All the best,
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26487	From: Dave Audley	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

Interesting discussion!

When we moved into our 2 storey "layout cover" condo, I got the

basement! It is mostly layout with a shop area at the back - sort

of in the furnace room.

I have about 10 feet of bench mounted on kitchen cabinet ( lower

cabinets ), with an adjacent sink cabinet complete with sink and

then another 10 feet of bench with a paint both mounted there.

Kitchen cabinets - great storage and inexpensive!. I have been

working in this shop for about 14 years and it has served very well

indeed! I also have another set of kitchen lowers, with a bench top,

for my computer and Decoderpro/loksound programming station.

I like having the room to spread several projects out!

Dave Audley

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 10:08 AM, "luvprr@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26488	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

On 3/09/2017 04:45, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> MicroMark has a LED lighting system to put on an Opt. A friend of mine
> has one and it works very well.
> I need to get one!
> Bob Macklin

Hi Bob.

Think I mentioned that I have on Optivisor and the clip-on LED light
unit on order - might be a few weeks before I actually sight them, as
they go via my fellow collector in California who bulk-packs my
purchases (mostly ebay..) ships them to the NZ Post warehouse in Oregon,
who ships them on to NZ customs, who pass them on to me down country in
NZ. Sounds complex, but works out cheaper overall - sometimes 20 or so
purchases in a box - just slow..

I'll post some comments on the OV and LEDs for use at our age when I've
received and tried them. Bomb willing, I should last that long..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26489	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Small Switchers, DC, Code 100

On 3/09/2017 13:21, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I really love this one.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Led-Light-Attachment-for-Optivisor-/182493497601?epid=710138755&hash=item2a7d75c901:g:-BkAAOSwB-1YzIZW
>
> Brad Smith (70 years old and still modeling in N scale.)

Have a look at this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3X-Giant-Large-Hands-Free-Magnifying-Glass-With-Light-LED-Magnifier-For-Read-BL/121672409386?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D46086%26meid%3D0300eb924bdf4eaeb294d94dfa8171b7%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D182493497601&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982

Anybody have one?

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26490	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

On 3/09/2017 02:32, dnhelber@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Doug,
> You're not far off, though I just added it as a random picture from the
> web to show what a watchmaker's bench looks like, in full.
> I looked it up again for you. That bench is $675 plus freight from
> http://www.jewelerssupplies.com/Watchmaker-Bench.html.
> My $3 monitor stand (if that's what it is), was a much better deal.

Hi David.

That's cheaper than mine! Which is built from a piece of 2-inch-thick
particle-board which I salvaged from somebody's junk pile on the edge of
the road one day - I've never seen this board so thick before or since -
and it's heavy, flat and stable - made a great benchtop. You can hammer
or saw on it. It was being dumped by a Dutch couple, so I gave them five
or ten dollars for several bits of particle board.

I then went to a plywood importer and got very cheaply an 8x4-foot sheet
of packing 3-ply, cut it to size, and glued it to the particle board. I
then sanded the ply very smooth, put some light wood trim strips around
the edges, with a higher wall at the back, then bought a small can of
marine epoxy varnish and over a week or so kept applying coats of
varnish until the can was empty - about 6 or 7 coats in all. This has
produced a hard, flat finish with a beautiful glow in the grain of the
plywood and the depth of the epoxy. Looks great!

The top is screwed onto two old reject cupboard 3-shelf storage units at
the right height to allow work standing up, and I use an adjustable
height swiveling office chair for seated work.

My drill press and vise are mounted at one end, and my grinder at the
other. However, this is barely enough space for all my projects, so next
thing is a 4.3-meter-long (about 14 feet) one-piece shelving board
($100) along the remaining unused wall of my garage. This will have a
mini-lathe, probably a mini mill, and lots of other tools and stuff..

With some screws and angle brackets to hold the cabinets in place, the
whole job probably cost about $25..

Sorry - geriatric rambling again.. Now 79 years and 2 days. (I think -
hard to remember..)

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26491	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 9/2/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

I don't think watchmaker's benches are a good choice for our model
work. We model builders have far too many tools and regularly used
supplies for those down low drawers to be a good choice. Besides even
used and beat up watchmakers benches are too darn expensive, especially
with today's "industrial chic" trends in interior decoration by young
city dwellers.

For model train work I've always thought a bottom surface of the layout
height at least 16 inches above the workbench surface or at or above
your eye level seated is an excellent setup as long as the workbench
itself is movable out from under the layout for emergency service. And
any area under the bench top should be dedicated to storage of items
used infrequently or mounted on casters that can be easily rolled out
for work sessions.

This under layout approach offers a lot of usable space for one or more
decent size workbench surfaces. Beyond that there so many different
best approaches depending on your own taste and capabilities to build or
modify. It would take a book to do the subject justice. And the many
books directed at home hobby woodworkers and dream workshops of that
type are of limited value to model railroad builders.

Another approach if you are really constrained for space and especially
if model building is not an everyday activity or comes in spurts is to
dedicate standing up tool boxes entirely to tool storage and similar
cabinets to "project trays". Actual model work is done on a nearby
table that has multiple household uses or has folding legs and a
suitable storage location. If the storage arrangements allow a heavy
tool box or cabinet with room for fair sized vise bench this offers a
sturdy clamping point for small model maker's power tools mounted on
flat pieces of plywood with "H" shaped ribs underneath that allow them
to either sit flat on any table or be clamped sturdily in the vise for
use. If following this general approach don't forget to plan for
electrical and lighting needs and ready access to a small vacuum cleaner.

Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26492	From: rxensen	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: Kadee springs

I solve the spring springing I put a very small bit of glue on the end of the spring then stick it on only the back post. A while later when the glue sets I use a knife to get the spring in the front post.

Saves crawling around on the floor like a 1 year old. Really the problem is getting up.

Ron Christensen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26493	From: rebendever	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

Attachments :

Labor_Day_2017-0902.jpg

DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

Our Labor Day Sale Newsletter went out today. If you're not a subscriber you may want to consider becoming a subscriber. We typically send a Newsletter about every week or so with all kinds of modeling information about our products and model building & weathering techniques.

Here is the link to the Newsletter:

http://tinyurl.com/debenllc-NL-2017-0902

Thank you for your business! Please tell your friends; it’s our only advertising.

Sincerely, Debbie & Richard Bendever

www.DEBenLLC.com

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26494	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: Re: Kadee springs

Anything small that goes on my floor STAYS THERE!

If I get on my knees I CAN'T GET UP!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: rxensen@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 4:08 AM

Subject: [vintageHO] Kadee springs

I solve the spring springing I put a very small bit of glue on the end of the spring then stick it on only the back post. A while later when the glue sets I use a knife to get the spring in the front post.

Saves crawling around on the floor like a 1 year old. Really the problem is getting up.

Ron Christensen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26495	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: Re: DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale! [1 Attachment]

Are your offerings "vintage," or are they contemporary H0? Not even sure ads like this belong on this group as it seems invasive, since it seems commercial. Members are permitted to occasionally list a few items for sale, but this doesn't have the appearance of "a few" items! I trust you first asked permission to post this.

In a message dated 9/3/2017 10:11:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

Our Labor Day Sale Newsletter went out today. If you're not a subscriber you may want to consider becoming a subscriber. We typically send a Newsletter about every week or so with all kinds of modeling information about our products and model building & weathering techniques.

Here is the link to the Newsletter:

http://tinyurl.com/debenllc-NL-2017-0902

Thank you for your business! Please tell your friends; it’s our only advertising.

Sincerely, Debbie & Richard Bendever

www.DEBenLLC.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26496	From: david_helber	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

Ed says: "I dont think watchmakers benches are a good choice for our model work."

Once again, my purpose was not to advocate that modelers buy or build a full watchmaker's bench. I merely wanted to point out the features that the traditional watchmaker's bench has, which might be helpful to the to older modelers.

The high work surface steadies the hands and brings the work close to the eyes without having to bend over. The slide-out catch-tray stops escaping parts. I assumed that anyone who liked the idea of those features, would be able to apply them to his personal situation in his own way, even if only to have a small, removable elevated section on a larger work surface.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26497	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: Re: DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

Not trying to be a total dick but I am not in favor of allowing such operators on Vintage HO.

I did take a look just to see what sort of operation they have.
When I saw their note on their website that “1/87 equals 1/8 inch scale, I closed it.

I, and others, will use these groups for some selling of personally owned model rr items and also, some small manufacturers will add notices of new or re-released product that can be difficult to advertize any other way.

I will do the same with decals albeit I will generally do that on railroad specific groups, (GBW, Soo, Milw, CNW B&O, etc.), the lesser used scales (O, S, etc.) or in response to someone looking for specific decals.

This seems to be an active mail order site, and not a well informed one at that.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 10:01 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

In a message dated 9/3/2017 10:11:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!
Our Labor Day Sale Newsletter went out today If you're not a subscriber you may want to consider becoming a subscriber. We typically send a Newsletter about every week or so with all kinds of modeling information about our products and model building & weathering techniques.

Here is the link to the Newsletter:
http://tinyurl.com/debenllc-NL-2017-0902

Thank you for your business! Please tell your friends; it’s our only advertising.
Sincerely, Debbie & Richard Bendever
www.DEBenLLC.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26498	From: George	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

I have an old metal desk with the pull out shelf for a typewriter. I use that and just lower my desk chair to the proper height so my nose is right up against my work :>) For larger projects I use a card table and the same adjustable chair. Plenty of room for tools and supplies.

On 9/3/2017 12:31 PM, dnhelber@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Ed says: "I dont think watchmakers benches are a good choice for our model work."

Once again, my purpose was not to advocate that modelers buy or build a full watchmaker's bench. I merely wanted to point out the features that the traditional watchmaker's bench has, which might be helpful to the to older modelers.

The high work surface steadies the hands and brings the work close to the eyes without having to bend over. The slide-out catch-tray stops escaping parts. I assumed that anyone who liked the idea of those features, would be able to apply them to his personal situation in his own way, even if only to have a small, removable elevated section on a larger work surface.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26499	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: Re: DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

I did debate approving this message, It seemed OK since it was NOT advocating ready-to-run from China.

I don't know how much longer the group will be around anyway, I'll keep it going as long as I can, but Yahoo and AT&T seem to be doing everything they can to shut the groups down.

DON
--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 9/3/17, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 3, 2017, 10:00 AM

Are your offerings "vintage,"
or are they contemporary
H0? Not even sure ads like this belong on this group as it
seems invasive,
since it seems commercial. Members are permitted to
occasionally list a
few items for sale, but this doesn't have the appearance
of "a few" items!
I trust you first asked permission to post
this.

In a message dated 9/3/2017 10:11:18 A.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

DEBenLLC 17% Off

Labor Day Sale!

Our Labor Day Sale Newsletter went
out today. If
you're not a subscriber you may want to consider
becoming a subscriber. We
typically send a Newsletter about every week or so with
all kinds of modeling
information about our products and model building &
weathering
techniques.

Here is the link to the
Newsletter:

http://tinyurl.com/debenllc-NL-2017-0902

Thank you for your business! Please
tell your
friends; it’s our only advertising.
Sincerely, Debbie & Richard
Bendever

www.DEBenLLC.com

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018 --
#yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp #yiv7792887018hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp #yiv7792887018ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc #yiv7792887018hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc .yiv7792887018ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span
.yiv7792887018underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p
span.yiv7792887018yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018file-title a, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:active, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:hover, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:active,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div#yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7792887018ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7792887018yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7792887018 input, #yiv7792887018 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7792887018
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7792887018logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-msg
p#yiv7792887018attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-reco
#yiv7792887018reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7792887018

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26500	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: Re: DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

Sounds good. I'm assuming it was debated with the lister of the post, as I don't recall seeing anything on it on the group, but then perhaps I missed it. Not seeing any debate here, I automatically questioned it since it didn't appear right. Yes, we sure don't need mention of any R-T-R China products.

Sure hope you can keep this group going; while it's not as busy as it has been in the past, it's still a lot busier than many other Yahoo groups. Then, there are the files that would be lost, which I hope has helped at least a few of the members. Sorry to hear about Yahoo and AT&T trying to put the nix on these groups. Keep up the good work.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 9/3/2017 4:42:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I did debate approving this message, It seemed OK since it was NOT advocating ready-to-run from China.

I don't know how much longer the group will be around anyway, I'll keep it going as long as I can, but Yahoo and AT&T seem to be doing everything they can to shut the groups down.

DON
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 9/3/17, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 3, 2017, 10:00 AM

Are your offerings "vintage,"
or are they contemporary
H0? Not even sure ads like this belong on this group as it
seems invasive,
since it seems commercial. Members are permitted to
occasionally list a
few items for sale, but this doesn't have the appearance
of "a few" items!
I trust you first asked permission to post
this.

In a message dated 9/3/2017 10:11:18 A.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

DEBenLLC 17% Off

Labor Day Sale!

Our Labor Day Sale Newsletter went
out today. If
you're not a subscriber you may want to consider
becoming a subscriber. We
typically send a Newsletter about every week or so with
all kinds of modeling
information about our products and model building &
weathering
techniques.

Here is the link to the
Newsletter:

http://tinyurl.com/debenllc-NL-2017-0902

Thank you for your business! Please
tell your
friends; it’s our only advertising.
Sincerely, Debbie & Richard
Bendever

www.DEBenLLC.com

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018 --
#yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp #yiv7792887018hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp #yiv7792887018ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc #yiv7792887018hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc .yiv7792887018ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span
.yiv7792887018underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p
span.yiv7792887018yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018file-title a, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:active, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:hover, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:active,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div#yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7792887018ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7792887018yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7792887018 input, #yiv7792887018 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7792887018
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7792887018logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-msg
p#yiv7792887018attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-reco
#yiv7792887018reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7792887018

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26501	From: greenbrier614	Date: 9/3/2017
Subject: Re: Watchmaker's Bench

I was a watchmaker for Swatchgroup for a few years, and they had just bought really nice adjustable benches that you could crank up or down to have your work surface at chest level. They must have cost a mint. When you're doing that kind of work 8 hours a day they were a lifesavers that really prevented undue neck strain.

With the disk issues I have in my neck now I know I'd never be able to continue that as a career. It has certainly put a damper on my modeling time, but I have a setup with a good desk chair at it's lowest position and high table that minimizes hunching over my work.

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26502	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/4/2017
Subject: Re: DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

The blurb about HO being the same as 1/8 scale was on their Jordan Products page. I opened it up thinking that maybe, just maybe, he had some NOS kits.

But, no. I was just a come-on to get one to further explore their site.

Don, have you looked into Group.io? Other than being a tad more difficult to find specific photos it seems to work quite well.

There would be a monthly fee of $10.00 but I would certainly donate to the cause if it meant keeping Vintage HO on the web.

I’ll bet Ray and several others would too.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 4:07 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 9/3/2017 4:42:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I did debate approving this message, It seemed OK since it was NOT advocating ready-to-run from China.

I don't know how much longer the group will be around anyway, I'll keep it going as long as I can, but Yahoo and AT&T seem to be doing everything they can to shut the groups down.

DON
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 9/3/17, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 3, 2017, 10:00 AM

Are your offerings "vintage,"
or are they contemporary
H0? Not even sure ads like this belong on this group as it
seems invasive,
since it seems commercial. Members are permitted to
occasionally list a
few items for sale, but this doesn't have the appearance
of "a few" items!
I trust you first asked permission to post
this.

In a message dated 9/3/2017 10:11:18 A.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

DEBenLLC 17% Off

Labor Day Sale!

Our Labor Day Sale Newsletter went
out today. If
you're not a subscriber you may want to consider
becoming a subscriber. We
typically send a Newsletter about every week or so with
all kinds of modeling
information about our products and model building &
weathering
techniques.

Here is the link to the
Newsletter:

http://tinyurl.com/debenllc-NL-2017-0902

Thank you for your business! Please
tell your
friends; it’s our only advertising.
Sincerely, Debbie & Richard
Bendever

www.DEBenLLC.com

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018 --
#yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp #yiv7792887018hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp #yiv7792887018ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc #yiv7792887018hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc .yiv7792887018ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span
.yiv7792887018underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p
span.yiv7792887018yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018file-title a, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:active, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:hover, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:active,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div#yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7792887018ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7792887018yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7792887018 input, #yiv7792887018 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7792887018
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7792887018logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-msg
p#yiv7792887018attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-reco
#yiv7792887018reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7792887018

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26503	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/4/2017
Subject: Re: DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

John and Don,

I'd be more than happy to donate towards having the group on "Group.io" if it comes down to it, to keep this group alive.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 9/4/2017 10:39:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The blurb about HO being the same as 1/8 scale was on their Jordan Products page. I opened it up thinking that maybe, just maybe, he had some NOS kits.

But, no. I was just a come-on to get one to further explore their site.

Don, have you looked into Group.io? Other than being a tad more difficult to find specific photos it seems to work quite well.

There would be a monthly fee of $10.00 but I would certainly donate to the cause if it meant keeping Vintage HO on the web.

I’ll bet Ray and several others would too.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 4:07 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!

Sounds good. I'm assuming it was debated with the lister of the post, as I don't recall seeing anything on it on the group, but then perhaps I missed it. Not seeing any debate here, I automatically questioned it since it didn't appear right. Yes, we sure don't need mention of any R-T-R China products.

Sure hope you can keep this group going; while it's not as busy as it has been in the past, it's still a lot busier than many other Yahoo groups. Then, there are the files that would be lost, which I hope has helped at least a few of the members. Sorry to hear about Yahoo and AT&T trying to put the nix on these groups. Keep up the good work.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 9/3/2017 4:42:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I did debate approving this message, It seemed OK since it was NOT advocating ready-to-run from China.

I don't know how much longer the group will be around anyway, I'll keep it going as long as I can, but Yahoo and AT&T seem to be doing everything they can to shut the groups down.

DON
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 9/3/17, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DEBenLLC 17% Off Labor Day Sale!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 3, 2017, 10:00 AM

Are your offerings "vintage,"
or are they contemporary
H0? Not even sure ads like this belong on this group as it
seems invasive,
since it seems commercial. Members are permitted to
occasionally list a
few items for sale, but this doesn't have the appearance
of "a few" items!
I trust you first asked permission to post
this.

In a message dated 9/3/2017 10:11:18 A.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

DEBenLLC 17% Off

Labor Day Sale!

Our Labor Day Sale Newsletter went
out today. If
you're not a subscriber you may want to consider
becoming a subscriber. We
typically send a Newsletter about every week or so with
all kinds of modeling
information about our products and model building &
weathering
techniques.

Here is the link to the
Newsletter:

http://tinyurl.com/debenllc-NL-2017-0902

Thank you for your business! Please
tell your
friends; it’s our only advertising.
Sincerely, Debbie & Richard
Bendever

www.DEBenLLC.com

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018 --
#yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp #yiv7792887018hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp #yiv7792887018ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mkp .yiv7792887018ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc #yiv7792887018hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7792887018ygrp-lc .yiv7792887018ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018activity span
.yiv7792887018underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 dd.yiv7792887018last p
span.yiv7792887018yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018file-title a, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:active, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:hover, #yiv7792887018
div.yiv7792887018file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:active,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7792887018 div.yiv7792887018photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 div#yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7792887018ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7792887018yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7792887018 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7792887018 .yiv7792887018replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7792887018 input, #yiv7792887018 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7792887018
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7792887018logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-msg
p#yiv7792887018attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-reco
#yiv7792887018reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-sponsor #yiv7792887018ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7792887018 #yiv7792887018ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7792887018

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26504	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 9/7/2017
Subject: Marx HO Hudson repair,

Hello Vintage HO group. I'm wondering if anyone would have information regarding replacing the drive rods on a Marx HO Hudson. I have a very nice loco that has a driver jamming problem. It seems the screw holes are worn and the drivers will not rotate equally. It's a shame as the engine and smoke unit are like new. Any remedies that could be sent along? I'd be grateful. Thanks.

Dominic

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26505	From: trainliker	Date: 9/7/2017
Subject: Re: Marx HO Hudson repair,

Attachments :

53592FDE911B4473A313F32848D1C253.png

You could buy another from eBay, for example, and use it as a source for parts. There is at least one there now. I don’t think they are common eBay, but everything seems to get to eBay if you can wait.

The side rods look like they are completely flat from the photo I just looked at on eBay. Not even any fluting. So it is certainly possible to make new ones if you want to try.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 5:15 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] Marx HO Hudson repair,

Dominic

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26506	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 9/7/2017
Subject: Re: Marx HO Hudson repair, [1 Attachment]

Those drivers are plastic. Take the side rods off and line up all crank pin screw holes to the same position on one side, then turn the loco over and see if they are all lined up with each other on the opposite side.

If any one hole is not lined up with the other two holes that explains the bad wear on the screw holes. If they are all in the same position with each other on each side, the loco has been run much and is well worn.

If the holes do not line up in the same position with the other two wheels on each side the bad wear came from misalignment because the out of alignment wheel was fighting against the others with each roatation.

If any wheel screw hole is out of alignment with the other two on one side and it was forced to run by applying high voltage that would explain the wear.

if the front wheel hole is straight forward the other two drive wheel holes on the same side must also be straight forward. Whatever the position on any drive wheel on either side, the other two must line up at the same position in order for the screw holes on the opposite side to line up in the same relative position to each other on the same side.

On real locos the crank pin holes on one side were installed 90 degrees ahead of or behind the crank pins on the opposite side so that the wheels on one side would receive power to the piston even if the opposite wheels were in a dead spot in relation to rotation..

Marx trains did not always follow prototype practice but they knew the three holes had to line up exactly with each other on each side.

If any one wheel will not line up with the other two on one side when the other side is lined up, one wheel on that axle must be removed and reinstalled in the correct position. Check to see if any wheels are loose enough to rotate on the axle when you hold the wheel on the opposite end of the axle. If any rotate that axle needs to be repaired by an experienced repair technician.

I hope this helps. Happy railroading...

Don in VA

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 9/7/2017 8:26 PM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

You could buy another from eBay, for example, and use it as a source for parts. There is at least one there now. I don’t think they are common eBay, but everything seems to get to eBay if you can wait.

The side rods look like they are completely flat from the photo I just looked at on eBay. Not even any fluting. So it is certainly possible to make new ones if you want to try.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 5:15 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] Marx HO Hudson repair,

Hello Vintage HO group. I'm wondering if anyone would have information regarding replacing the drive rods on a Marx HO Hudson. I have a very nice loco that has a driver jamming problem. It seems the screw holes are worn and the drivers will not rotate equally. It's a shame as the engine and smoke unit are like new. Any remedies that could be sent along? I'd be grateful. Thanks.

Dominic

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26507	From: johnhutnick	Date: 9/9/2017
Subject: old layout

Can anyone direct me to the MR, RMC or Model Trains article on a small layout called either "Moonlight and Violins" or "Longtail and Sopwith". These odd names stick in my memory, but I cannot find anything. Thanks for any help.

John Hutnick

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26508	From: trainliker	Date: 9/9/2017
Subject: Re: old layout

Attachments :

31249A930B5D4007A24FBED21E475709.png

For the “Moonlight & Violins”, the “75 year” Model Railroader DVD had 11 references. Most were mentions about something about the railroad. One was an article in the November 1937 issue called “Some HO Experiences – a Few Practical Lessons Gained by Building the Moonlight & Violins”, by William Schopp.

Didn’t find anything for the other.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: johnhutnick@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 5:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] old layout

John Hutnick

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26509	From: rxensen	Date: 9/27/2017
Subject: motor lubercation

I would like to find a lubricant that works well on Mantue motors.

I have been using Hob-E-Lube Premium HL661, seems to work well, but after a week of non running I need to take the loco apart again and lubricate.

Any help would be appreciated

Ron Christesen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26510	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/27/2017
Subject: Re: motor lubercation

Attachments :

Have you tried the La Bell products?

http://www.con-cor.com/lablubes.htm

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 8:47 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] motor lubercation

I would like to find a lubricant that works well on Mantue motors.

I have been using Hob-E-Lube Premium HL661, seems to work well, but after a week of non running I need to take the loco apart again and lubricate.

Any help would be appreciated

Ron Christesen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26511	From: ron christensen	Date: 9/28/2017
Subject: Re: motor lubercation

I have tried La Bell, when my tube was empty, I bought what they had.

I still have La Bell gear lub. I have heard STP is also good gear lub. I think to thick for motors.

If I remember, we added STP to the oil in our 40s & 50s cars. I had not heard any thing about it in the last 40 years. The answer probably is replace the motor with a new can motor.

Ron Christensen

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 27, 2017, at 6:47 PM, 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Have you tried the La Bell products?
http://www.con-cor.com/lablubes.htm

Take care,
Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 8:47 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] motor lubercation

I would like to find a lubricant that works well on Mantue motors.
I have been using Hob-E-Lube Premium HL661, seems to work well, but after a week of non running I need to take the loco apart again and lubricate.
Any help would be appreciated
Ron Christesen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26512	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/28/2017
Subject: Re: motor lubercation

Attachments :

On 9/28/2017 5:51 AM, ron christensen rxensen@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I have tried La Bell, when my tube was empty, I bought what they had.
> I still have La Bell gear lub. I have heard STP is also good gear lub. I
> think to thick for motors.
> If I remember, we added STP to the oil in our 40s & 50s cars. I had not
> heard any thing about it in the last 40 years. The answer probably is
> replace the motor with a new can motor.

At a convention clinic I attended some time back the clinician
recommended using automatic transmission fluid as a lubricant. Haven't
tried it yet myself. Don't recall if this group allows attachments but
I'm including on of his slide documenting the reasons to use it, if it
comes through.

--

Rick Jones

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved
body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting
'...holy shit...what a ride!'"
-Doug Berlin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26513	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 9/28/2017
Subject: Re: motor lubercation

On the motor bearings you want to use OIL not GREASE.

Labelle makes two kinds of oil. One is PLASTIC compatible, the other is not. For motors with bronze bearing you want the oil that is not plastic compatible.

The grease is for use on the gears.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: ron christensen rxensen@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 3:51 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] motor lubercation

I have tried La Bell, when my tube was empty, I bought what they had.

I still have La Bell gear lub. I have heard STP is also good gear lub. I think to thick for motors.

If I remember, we added STP to the oil in our 40s & 50s cars. I had not heard any thing about it in the last 40 years. The answer probably is replace the motor with a new can motor.

Ron Christensen

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 27, 2017, at 6:47 PM, 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Have you tried the La Bell products?

http://www.con-cor.com/lablubes.htm

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 8:47 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] motor lubercation

I would like to find a lubricant that works well on Mantue motors.

I have been using Hob-E-Lube Premium HL661, seems to work well, but after a week of non running I need to take the loco apart again and lubricate.

Any help would be appreciated

Ron Christesen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26514	From: jimwatermanboeing	Date: 10/2/2017
Subject: Trackside Specialties P5-A kit

I had lost this auction, then saw it reposted, apparently the first buyer said his computer was hacked (maybe I can use that excuse with my wife when the boxes arrive).

Any way, I picked it up a few days ago, it is the last run - I am Vince Waterman's son, can remember these being packed in the mid sixties, kinda cool to have the kit back. Looks like all key parts are accounted for, one of the pilot steps is pretty corroded, other than that, it's seen a lot of miles and several owners over the years.

I wonder how many of these were actually built and run, most people I talk to still have their kits. (exception being Jim Heckard, who had several of my dad's box cab locos - P5 in two varieties, O-1, B-1.

I have another earlier kit, thinking about building this one - thoughts?

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26515	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 10/2/2017
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5-A kit

Hi Jim,

I think you should build it and show us the photos and then a video of it running.

Take care,

Chuck Higdon

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 3:52 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties P5-A kit

I had lost this auction, then saw it reposted, apparently the first buyer said his computer was hacked (maybe I can use that excuse with my wife when the boxes arrive).

I have another earlier kit, thinking about building this one - thoughts?

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26516	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/2/2017
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5-A kit - Now OT Rant..

On 3/10/2017 08:52, Watermaj@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I had lost this auction, then saw it reposted, apparently the first buyer said his computer was hacked (maybe I can use that excuse with my wife when the boxes arrive).
> Jim Waterman

This does happen.

(BTW - I've finally got my partner trained (after 30 years) so that she
doesn't even blink when the courier presents with another parcel..)
However..

I belonged (past tense) to a Meccano group where the unprotected(!)
mailing list was hacked.

Shortly thereafter, a number of purchases were made using my ebay
account - watches and other such easily sold stuff. Paypal picked up a
problem with addresses not matching my account, and a refund was made on
just one order by a seller.

The others never happened, and I'm about $300 out of pocket on all this.
Pissed me off. Never even got a watch out of it!

Then my email went out - several times. I contacted my ISP, waited for
the dreaded Help Desk, and had it restored each time. Finally they
accused me of sending spam, claiming I sent 1,400 spam messages at 04:00
one morning. I politely (well, sort-of) told them that they had that
wrong - at 04:00 I was fast asleep in my bed, my computer was completely
shut down, and the mains power plug pulled from the socket to protect
from power surges, but that my address had been hacked from some other
computer..

So my email got restored finally - but then I started getting spam -
some of it *allegedly* from my own email address, which some bastard was
using to spam who knows how many computers world-wide. What can you do?
Short answer - nothing.. Fortunately my ISP is closing their service,
and I have to move on to a new email address, having spent many years
building up a good rapport with many others..

So be aware of what groups you belong to..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Cambridge, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26517	From: corlissbs	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Floquil Primer

I am at the end of my last bottle of Floquil Primer and on my last bottle of Engine Black. Boo-Hoo! Has anyone found a suitable replacement? I have never had good luck with Scalecoat, but maybe I will have to learn to live with it. Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26518	From: trainliker	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Floquil Primer

Attachments :

4B66FE3F71B44F50B1AD8C1957BE6072.png

I also miss Floquil. I have tried a few, including Scalecoat, but have settled on TruColor.

http://trucolorpaint.com/

It is solvent based, not water based.. I recommend using ONLY their solvent even if it does seem high priced. Some make their own concoctions, or try to just use acetone or something. But they have other things in there that influence drying time and such. I just don’t think it’s worth it trying to save a few dollars on thinner.

I think you will find it has the same ultra thin thickness of Floquil.

Also, I know that some spray straight from the bottle. And I think you can. However, I like to airbrush really thin so I add about one third thinner.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:09 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Floquil Primer

Posted by: corlissbs@...

•

•

•

•

http://trucolorpaint.com/

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

__,_.._,___

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26519	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Floquil Primer [1 Attachment]

Yes, I would use their thinner for airbrushing, but I think you can use plain ordinary Acetone for cleanup.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 12:19 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Floquil Primer [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

I also miss Floquil. I have tried a few, including Scalecoat, but have settled on TruColor.

I think you will find it has the same ultra thin thickness of Floquil.

Also, I know that some spray straight from the bottle. And I think you can. However, I like to airbrush really thin so I add about one third thinner.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:09 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Floquil Primer

Posted by: corlissbs@...

•

•

•

•

CAD7C35EC75A4CCB977F6507CA7B5C62.png

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

__,_.._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26520	From: Brad Smith	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Floquil Primer [1 Attachment]

Is Tru Color the old Accu Paint?

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Oct 3, 2017, at 11:19 AM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I also miss Floquil. I have tried a few, including Scalecoat, but have settled on TruColor.

http://trucolorpaint.com/

It is solvent based, not water based.. I recommend using ONLY their solvent even if it does seem high priced. Some make their own concoctions, or try to just use acetone or something. But they have other things in there that influence drying time and such. I just don’t think it’s worth it trying to save a few dollars on thinner.

I think you will find it has the same ultra thin thickness of Floquil.

Also, I know that some spray straight from the bottle. And I think you can. However, I like to airbrush really thin so I add about one third thinner.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:09 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Floquil Primer

I am at the end of my last bottle of Floquil Primer and on my last bottle of Engine Black. Boo-Hoo! Has anyone found a suitable replacement? I have never had good luck with Scalecoat, but maybe I will have to learn to live with it. Brad Smith
Posted by: corlissbs@...
Reply via web post
•
Reply to sender
•
Reply to group
•
Start a New Topic
•
Messages in this topic (1)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
Visit Your Group
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

__,_.._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26521	From: trainliker	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Floquil Primer

Attachments :

3BEA487546BF4574A7C0AFD19EC7E803.png

Yes. Acetone is fine for cleanup. But…

I now use an Iwata airbrush which has some O-rings that swell up with acetone, but then go back to normal size.

I especially noticed this on the O-ring sealing the air control shaft. The air button would stay stuck down. But also the O-ring under the head cap when it became a large enough diameter that it would no longer seat. The needle seal is not an O-ring and doesn’t swell up. So if you have an Iwata (I have an Eclipse since I like side feed) watch out for soaking in acetone too long.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:44 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Floquil Primer

Yes, I would use their thinner for airbrushing, but I think you can use plain ordinary Acetone for cleanup.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

I also miss Floquil. I have tried a few, including Scalecoat, but have settled on TruColor.

http://trucolorpaint.com/

I think you will find it has the same ultra thin thickness of Floquil.

Also, I know that some spray straight from the bottle. And I think you can. However, I like to airbrush really thin so I add about one third thinner.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:09 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Floquil Primer

Posted by: corlissbs@...

•

•

•

•

85A7EEDBBC844F6AB337A62458C82FA1.png

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

__,_.._,___

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26522	From: trainliker	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Floquil Primer

Attachments :

Yes. TruColor is the old Accupaint – sort of. Reformulated somehow per TruColor’s web site:

http://trucolorpaint.com/about-us/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:58 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Floquil Primer

Is Tru Color the old Accu Paint?

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Oct 3, 2017, at 11:19 AM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I also miss Floquil. I have tried a few, including Scalecoat, but have settled on TruColor.

http://trucolorpaint.com/

It is solvent based, not water based.. I recommend using ONLY their solvent even if it does seem high priced. Some make their own concoctions, or try to just use acetone or something. But they have other things in there that influence drying time and such. I just don’t think it’s worth it trying to save a few dollars on thinner.

I think you will find it has the same ultra thin thickness of Floquil.

Also, I know that some spray straight from the bottle. And I think you can. However, I like to airbrush really thin so I add about one third thinner.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:09 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Floquil Primer

I am at the end of my last bottle of Floquil Primer and on my last bottle of Engine Black. Boo-Hoo! Has anyone found a suitable replacement? I have never had good luck with Scalecoat, but maybe I will have to learn to live with it. Brad Smith
Posted by: corlissbs@...
Reply via web post
•
Reply to sender
•
Reply to group
•
Start a New Topic
•
Messages in this topic (1)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
Visit Your Group
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

__,_.._,___

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26523	From: luvprr2003	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Rail Chief Products

All:

I just completed a Rail Chief Timber Coaling Station. It's really a beautiful and very substantial piece illustrating pre-cut hardwood models offered back in the day. I wondered if anyone can tell me when this item was first offered under that manufacturer's name. I located what seems to be basically the same all wood model in a Polk's catalog of 1943, but the model did not have some of the nicer features that the more contemporary one that I have has, so I'm guessing that the original offering was made by a different manufacturer.

Art Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26524	From: trainliker	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Rail Chief Products

Attachments :

19B4C4EECCC14EC3BA1010CCD9B88B6E.png

Looking at the “75 years” Model Railroader archive, the first mention I see of the Rail Chief HO coaling station kit is in an ad in the December, 1944 issue on what was the inside back cover.

The ad is full page by “The Model Railroad Shop” Dunellen, New Jersey.

It has three columns left to right O gauge, Miscellaneous, and HO gauge. Has Rail Chief items in both O and HO.

The HO column for shows three items for Rail Chief:

Rail Chief water tower kit 1.95

Rail Chief coaling station kit 3.00

Rail Chief fire plug, painted .25

Those prices would be about $27.04, $41.60, and $3.47 in today’s money.

It doesn’t say “timber coaling station”. Just “coaling station”.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 11:22 AM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Rail Chief Products

All:

Art Waite

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26525	From: luvprr2003	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Rail Chief Products [1 Attachment]

Thanks for the reply. I couldn't open the Yahoo file, but that's OK. But interestingly I see that the ad was for a hobby shop in Dunellen, NJ. A couple of years ago I built a passenger car sold by them back in 1939 I believe. I checked them out, and found that they are still in business!

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26526	From: trainliker	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Rail Chief Products

Attachments :

944CB4464E9F482BACEF305B3F3671F4.png

That Yahoo “attachment” isn’t anything. I didn’t put it there. It’s some artifact the Yahoo tacks on when I reply to a Yahoo group. I don’t think there’s anything I can do about it.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 1:16 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rail Chief Products

Art

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26527	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: [vintage] Rail Chief Products

Attachments :

The image from the 1946 Rail Chief catalog, does show this item, on HO seeker. Page 6 and then page 8 has the word “Deluxe”, so maybe they had 2 levels of the kit?

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 2:23 PM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Rail Chief Products

All:

Art Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26528	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Rail Chief Products [1 Attachment]

Newer Manufacturers buying out older manufacturers often carried the previous manufacturers' products in addition to their own, sometimes keeping them the same and sometimes upgrading them with more detail, etc. The Rail Chief Coaling Station continued to be made through at least 1950, as carried by one of the largest model supply houses in New York City; Model R. R. Equipment Corp. It's listed as their (Model RR Equipment's) Catalog # H5212 and described as Wood Construction; it's priced @ 4.95. The Catalog # H5206 Water Tower, Wood Construction is included and priced @ $2.50 and the Catalog # 5426 Fire Hydrant is still offered @ 25 cents, along with Catalog #'s H5427 Fire Alarm Box, H5428 Parcel Post Mail Box and H5429 Letter Box - all priced @ 20 cents each.

Under "Billboards," Model RR Equipment carried their Catalog # H5716, Rail Chief Pepsi Cola (Wood, 3-Color Poster) and Catalog # H5717 Baltimore & Ohio (Wood, 2-Color Poster). Rail Chief also is noted here as offering Lichen Moss, box @ 50 cents -- Model RR Equipment # H5802. Additionally, under "Animals," Model Railroad Equipment Corp lists their Catalog #'s H5498 Horses, Set of 4, Boxed, Cast Metal @ $1.25, H5499 Cows, Set of 4, Boxed, Cast Metal @ $1.00, H5500 Sheep, Set of 5, Boxed, Cast Metal @$1.25 and H5501 Pigs, Set of 6, Boxed, Cast Metal @ $1.25 -- for Rail Chief.

All of the 65', 80' and 85' Smooth- Side and Corrugated-Side extruded-aluminum-bodied passenger cars that Rail Chief was most noted for were carried by Model R.R, Equipment Corp in 1950 and continued at least through 1953, but the coaling tower appears to be replaced by Catalog # 6172H Ayres Coaling Tower (Wood & Cardboard), priced @ $1.10. "Appears," to be replaced, only because while there is a Rail Chief Coal Station listed, a different catalog number is used (No. 6097H) and it's described as "This massive structure is assembled from pre-cut to size wood parts) and it's priced @ $5.95. There's a nice photo of it in the 1953 catalog, unlike the 1950 catalog showing no photo. Might be the same one. There's a Rail Chief Water Tower (catalog No. 6100H) w/photo, described as "Model has considerable detailed underbracing;" @ $2.50. The Rail Chief street scene details and the farm animals were still be offered in 1953 - at the same prices.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 10/3/2017 3:53:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Looking at the “75 years” Model Railroader archive, the first mention I see of the Rail Chief HO coaling station kit is in an ad in the December, 1944 issue on what was the inside back cover.

The ad is full page by “The Model Railroad Shop” Dunellen, New Jersey.

It has three columns left to right O gauge, Miscellaneous, and HO gauge. Has Rail Chief items in both O and HO.

The HO column for shows three items for Rail Chief:

Rail Chief water tower kit   1.95

Rail Chief coaling station kit   3.00

Rail Chief fire plug, painted   .25

Those prices would be about $27.04, $41.60, and $3.47 in today’s money.

It doesn’t say “timber coaling station”. Just “coaling station”.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 11:22 AM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Rail Chief Products

All:

I just completed a Rail Chief Timber Coaling Station. It's really a beautiful and very substantial piece illustrating pre-cut hardwood models offered back in the day. I wondered if anyone can tell me when this item was first offered under that manufacturer's name. I located what seems to be basically the same all wood model in a Polk's catalog of 1943, but the model did not have some of the nicer features that the more contemporary one that I have has, so I'm guessing that the original offering was made by a different manufacturer.

Art Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26529	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/3/2017
Subject: Re: Rail Chief Products

This hobby shop you're referring to is "The Model Railroad Shop" in Dunellen, NJ (292 Vail Avenue). It's the oldest continuously operated hobby shop in the country -- founded in the early 1930's by Howell Day -- who later bought the Red Ball company from M. Dale Newton in the 1950's. I've been there a number of times, but as it's in Central New Jersey, and as I'm in North New Jersey, it's not a shop I visit regularly In their 1937 - 38 Catalog that I have, there are no structure kits listed at all, but the complete line of Howell Day's famous "H.Owen" freight and passenger car kits are shown, as well as the H. Owen PRR K-4, which came completely finished (incl. paint & lettering) or in kit form -- either one complete kit or as 5 separate sections for easier budgeting.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 10/3/2017 4:17:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Thanks for the reply. I couldn't open the Yahoo file, but that's OK. But interestingly I see that the ad was for a hobby shop in Dunellen, NJ. A couple of years ago I built a passenger car sold by them back in 1939 I believe. I checked them out, and found that they are still in business!

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26530	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Attachments :

Is there anyone still alive that might be able to explain why the Authenticast box art seems to clearly show early Walthers and Mantua pieces?

See the attached image...

Sincerely,

Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26531	From: luvprr2003	Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

I'm only 80 and not familiar with Authenticast, but my guess is that their products were manufactured by Walthers and/or Mantua and sold under the Authenticast name. I know that was commonly done by many companies--including hobby shops who wanted to sell products under the hobby shop's name. As an example, I fairly recently built an HO passenger car sold by a hobby shop in NJ in 1938 under their name but was certainly not manufactured by them (BTW they are still in business!)

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26532	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Still in business. Really? What's the name? Where in NJ?

Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:29 PM, luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm only 80 and not familiar with Authenticast, but my guess is that their products were manufactured by Walthers and/or Mantua and sold under the Authenticast name. I know that was commonly done by many companies--including hobby shops who wanted to sell products under the hobby shop's name. As an example, I fairly recently built an HO passenger car sold by a hobby shop in NJ in 1938 under their name but was certainly not manufactured by them (BTW they are still in business!)

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26533	From: trainliker	Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Attachments :

I was guessing just the opposite. That Authenticast might have cast parts for others.

At this site, the fellow thinks Authenticast “cribbed” the photos (swiped them, I guess).

http://sbiii.com/authcomt.html

And at his “page 2” has more photos and says “Those railroad illustrations appear to be a straight rip off from Mantua!”

http://sbiii.com/authcmt2.html

But that’s just his opinion, not authoritative.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 8:29 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26534	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: [vintage] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Attachments :

The Model Railroad Shop in Dunellen, NJ. Been there since 1934.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 11:36 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Still in business. Really? What's the name? Where in NJ?

Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:29 PM, luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm only 80 and not familiar with Authenticast, but my guess is that their products were manufactured by Walthers and/or Mantua and sold under the Authenticast name. I know that was commonly done by many companies--including hobby shops who wanted to sell products under the hobby shop's name. As an example, I fairly recently built an HO passenger car sold by a hobby shop in NJ in 1938 under their name but was certainly not manufactured by them (BTW they are still in business!)
Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26535	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Chuck,

I saw that page too.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 11:40 AM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

I was guessing just the opposite. That Authenticast might have cast parts for others.

At this site, the fellow thinks Authenticast “cribbed” the photos (swiped them, I guess).

http://sbiii.com/authcomt.html

And at his “page 2” has more photos and says “Those railroad illustrations appear to be a straight rip off from Mantua!”

http://sbiii.com/authcmt2.html

But that’s just his opinion, not authoritative.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 8:29 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26536	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Re: Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Well, I have no idea as who did what or to whom they did it.

But the site, which I have never come across before, is certainly worth bookmarking.

Thanks, Chuck.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 10:40 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

I was guessing just the opposite. That Authenticast might have cast parts for others

At this site, the fellow thinks Authenticast “cribbed” the photos (swiped them, I guess).

http://sbiii.com/authcomt.html

And at his “page 2” has more photos and says “Those railroad illustrations appear to be a straight rip off from Mantua!”

http://sbiii.com/authcmt2.html

But that’s just his opinion, not authoritative.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Posted by: trainliker <ckinzer@...>

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (4)

http://hoseeker.net/otherhotrains9.html

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26537	From: luvprr2003	Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Bowser repairs

OK, group, I'm gonna try something here. I'm 80 and been building Bowser/Penn LIne, Walthers--you name it for many years and have about run our of stuff to build that I haven't done sometimes many times. I have, for instance, built and own the entire Bowser steam kit line with just about all available details added. The idea here is that I'm looking for more stuff to do in my old age and have this crazy idea. . . .

If you have any busted, broken, half completed Bowser/Penn Line items (or equivalent) that need work and which you haven't had the heart to throw out, I'd be happy to take care of those problems--FOR FREE-- (even includes broken castings) if you are willing to pay the shipping both ways. . . This does not include remotoring or custom work (which I have done in years past but would cost a bundle) I just need to keep busy while I can do it and don't want to add more stuff to my own collection.

I don't contribute photos to Yahoo but would be happy to send some to individuals.

Any takers?

Art Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26538	From: Model RailRoad Warehouse	Date: 11/13/2017
Subject: Dunellen NJ Shop Re: [vintage] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

The hobby shop in Dunellen, NJ DID manufacture the kits in question. THE MODEL RAILROAD SHOP was Howell Day who later (about 1954) bought Red Ball from M Dale Newton and continued making Red Ball till we bought it from him 22 years later. Howell Day was a pioneer HO manufacturer who earlier did kits using the "H Owen" brand name. He had an HO PRR K4 kit in the market before the ones mentioned in another post

I also noted in that post about no kits to build??? We still make them in O, S & HO. Seven different motive power kits in HO currently available. Customers welcome.

Merle Rice

Model RR Warehouse

Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today ! Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26539	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

While it may not be entirely possible to know the precise purpose of why Authenticast decided on depicting products obviously of other H0 manufacturers products on their boxes without actually obtaining this information from a member of the Authenticast staff, I would offer that with their illustrations of the most commonly used (more familiar) rolling stock on the railroads, these pics stirred up the interest of the modeler and at the same time drew their attention to their (Authenticast's) products without the expense of involving any photography of their own. Oddly though, along with other styles of boxes, they also used this one for non-railroad models, like military vehicles. Not collecting cast metal ship or aircraft models which they also made, I have no idea if they ever used this railroad-themed box for these other models.

It's unlikely that Authenticast manufactured parts for other manufactures when they never offered any of the types of models shown on their boxes. Anyone even slightly familiar with Authenticast may realize that this manufacturer never produced an engine. Neither did they ever produced tank cars, hoppers, gondolas, reefers or passenger cars. Their niche was in producing more unique H0 models which few (if any) other manufactures of that time ever offered. Besides the operating Magor side-dump car shown in the photo here, in railroad rolling stock, they also (only) produced a hot-metal Slag car (used around steel mills) and a 40' depressed center flat car with no other railroad cars on their agenda. Additionally, they produced a through type plate girder bridge, gantry crane, double-track signal bridge, line-side RR ROW signs and figures. Aside from these few cars, the plate girder bridge and the signal bridge was offered by a few other H0 producers; Selley being one of them which produced a plate girder bridge. Ideal produced a double-track signal bridge.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/13/2017 11:18:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Is there anyone still alive that might be able to explain why the Authenticast box art seems to clearly show early Walthers and Mantua pieces?

See the attached image...

Sincerely,

Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26540	From: trainliker	Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Attachments :

I didn’t suggest they marketed railroad items, but rather may have made some parts for others who did. As in being a subcontractor.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 5:30 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/13/2017 11:18:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Is there anyone still alive that might be able to explain why the Authenticast box art seems to clearly show early Walthers and Mantua pieces?

See the attached image...

Sincerely,

Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26541	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Bowser repairs

Art,

If you haven't been swamped with offers I'd like to see some pictures. I have an engine (if I can find it) that I started in the 1970s.

Kind of a reverse good work!

Willard

At 11/13/2017, luvprr@... [vintageHO] wrote:

OK, group, I'm gonna try something here. I'm 80 and been building Bowser/Penn LIne, Walthers--you name it for many years and have about run our of stuff to build that I haven't done sometimes many times. I have, for instance, built and own the entire Bowser steam kit line with just about all available details added. The idea here is that I'm looking for more stuff to do in my old age and have this crazy idea. . . .
If you have any busted, broken, half completed Bowser/Penn Line items (or equivalent) that need work and which you haven't had the heart to throw out, I'd be happy to take care of those problems--FOR FREE-- (even includes broken castings) if you are willing to pay the shipping both ways. . . This does not include remotoring or custom work (which I have done in years past but would cost a bundle) I just need to keep busy while I can do it and don't want to add more stuff to my own collection.
I don't contribute photos to Yahoo but would be happy to send some to individuals.
Any takers?
Art Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26542	From: luvprr2003	Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Bowser repairs

Willard,

You're the only one so far. . . What loco would it be? I could send photos more or less similar to the one you have.

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26543	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Attachments :

Point well taken. I'm understanding that it's suggested that Authenticast may have made parts for other manufacturers. I only stated that they didn't make any of these types of cars pictured on their boxes themselves, which would seem to make it far less likely to manufacture parts for others which they didn't use for themselves. While we've known that foundries like Adams & Sons made parts for Varney and others like Harry J. Garrett, Authenticast didn't appear to be in that business but then nothing's impossible.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/14/2017 10:34:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I didn’t suggest they marketed railroad items, but rather may have made some parts for others who did. As in being a subcontractor.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 5:30 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

While it may not be entirely possible to know the precise purpose of why Authenticast decided on depicting products obviously of other H0 manufacturers products on their boxes without actually obtaining this information from a member of the Authenticast staff, I would offer that with their illustrations of the most commonly used (more familiar) rolling stock on the railroads, these pics stirred up the interest of the modeler and at the same time drew their attention to their (Authenticast's) products without the expense of involving any photography of their own. Oddly though, along with other styles of boxes, they also used this one for non-railroad models, like military vehicles. Not collecting cast metal ship or aircraft models which they also made, I have no idea if they ever used this railroad-themed box for these other models.

It's unlikely that Authenticast manufactured parts for other manufactures when they never offered any of the types of models shown on their boxes. Anyone even slightly familiar with Authenticast may realize that this manufacturer never produced an engine. Neither did they ever produced tank cars, hoppers, gondolas, reefers or passenger cars. Their niche was in producing more unique H0 models which few (if any) other manufactures of that time ever offered. Besides the operating Magor side-dump car shown in the photo here, in railroad rolling stock, they also (only) produced a hot-metal Slag car (used around steel mills) and a 40' depressed center flat car with no other railroad cars on their agenda. Additionally, they produced a through type plate girder bridge, gantry crane, double-track signal bridge, line-side RR ROW signs and figures. Aside from these few cars, the plate girder bridge and the signal bridge was offered by a few other H0 producers; Selley being one of them which produced a plate girder bridge. Ideal produced a double-track signal bridge.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/13/2017 11:18:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Is there anyone still alive that might be able to explain why the Authenticast box art seems to clearly show early Walthers and Mantua pieces?

See the attached image...

Sincerely,

Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26544	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: [vintage] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Comet Metal Products, Authenticast, Richmond Hill, L.I. N.Y.

Comet Metal was doing business before 1940. They are best known for identification models in various scales done for the Military during WWII. They also did toy soldiers, HO(1:90) S and O scales, miniature machine tools and furnishings for shop layout planning and custom castings to order among other things.

Their items were cast primarily in lead or a lead alloy.

I doubt, especially knowing Walthers' history that any "cribbing" by Comet was going on.

Fred Holladay

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 8:42:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] RE: [vintage] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

The Model Railroad Shop in Dunellen, NJ. Been there since 1934.

Take care,

Chuck

Still in business. Really? What's the name? Where in NJ?

Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:29 PM, luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm only 80 and not familiar with Authenticast, but my guess is that their products were manufactured by Walthers and/or Mantua and sold under the Authenticast name. I know that was commonly done by many companies--including hobby shops who wanted to sell products under the hobby shop's name. As an example, I fairly recently built an HO passenger car sold by a hobby shop in NJ in 1938 under their name but was certainly not manufactured by them (BTW they are still in business!)

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26545	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/14/2017
Subject: Re: [vintage] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Yes, it's been established that Authenticast made military models, numerous ones, as well as figures (both military and civilian), in addition to numerous ships and aircraft. Their railroad models were few by comparison, but extremely welcome and appreciated by railroad modelers. They were an independent firm not associated with Walthers or any other H0 manufacturer.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/14/2017 2:27:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Comet Metal Products, Authenticast, Richmond Hill, L.I. N.Y.

Comet Metal was doing business before 1940. They are best known for identification models in various scales done for the Military during WWII. They also did toy soldiers, HO(1:90) S and O scales, miniature machine tools and furnishings for shop layout planning and custom castings to order among other things.

Their items were cast primarily in lead or a lead alloy.

I doubt, especially knowing Walthers' history that any "cribbing" by Comet was going on.

Fred Holladay

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 8:42:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] RE: [vintage] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

The Model Railroad Shop in Dunellen, NJ. Been there since 1934.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 11:36 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Authenticast Vintage HO Box Art

Still in business. Really? What's the name? Where in NJ?

Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 12:29 PM, luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm only 80 and not familiar with Authenticast, but my guess is that their products were manufactured by Walthers and/or Mantua and sold under the Authenticast name. I know that was commonly done by many companies--including hobby shops who wanted to sell products under the hobby shop's name. As an example, I fairly recently built an HO passenger car sold by a hobby shop in NJ in 1938 under their name but was certainly not manufactured by them (BTW they are still in business!)

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26546	From: lefcguy	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Ideal building kits

Attachments :

Hi!

I'm a very recent member. I joined because I got tired of plastic everything, and really enjoy the character of wood and diecast freight cars.

This may be off topic a little, but has anyone built an Ideal Tiny Town kit? I was looking for a flag stop for my shelf layout (late 1940s early 1950s short line coal hauler) and discovered this one on eBay. Model number is B4, and according to the yellowed, crumbling instructions it was copyright 1939. I was intrigued to say the least; all parts were heavy cardboard except for a few windows and window frames.

I've got to admit it was a lot of fun to build something so "primitive." And the completed result was surprisingly pleasing to look at as well. I only added two things, a styrene "flag" and the station name. The back of the box lists quite a few other kits they offered. I just might be looking for kit B7, a roundhouse, now.

My huge thanks to the informational files available here. I've already made use of several and look forward to more in the future.

LEFCguy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26547	From: luvprr2003	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26548	From: luvprr2003	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

Guy,

We older guys have built lots of Tiny Town items over the years, and I'm sure you will get lots of responses from our various super-knowledgeable people in this group. My prize Ideal item is a 4 stall terminal building from 1949--complete with platforms. I have one on my layout and an extra unbuilt one in the collection. I've never seen another one like it on eBay but the ones you're looking for eventually show up.

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26549	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

Hi LEFCguy,

Glad to see you found this group. Let me be one of the first to welcome you here. If you're into the older era of modeling, I'm sure you'll enjoy it here -- and I see you've already perused the files area. Ideal is surely not off-topic; this manufacturer is among many which we appreciate as "primo." So, you're right on topic! Viewing your photo of the B-4 Flag Stop Station, it appears you did a nice job. These kits may be primitive to some, but they build up into very acceptable looking models. Back in the day, cardstock and Strathmore board were heavily used and to good effect.

As with most of the other Yahoogroups on the 'Net, this group too has tapered off in discussions lately, but interesting topics do come up when the occasion arises. I don't know if the back of your kit box shows all the structure kits this manufacturer produced, but they made a total of 37 such structure kits, while 28 of them are illustrated in their catalog. All photos are extremely presentable as fine looking models, not appearing crude or "primitive" at all. For that matter, I don't recall if any of us made a file on Ideal, especially of their structures, although I don't believe so. For your benefit as well as for others, I'll make a brief listing of them below. While the catalog includes each model's area dimensions (length & width), showing how much room they'll take up on one's layout, I'll attempt to include these at a later date. Their pricing at that time ranged from 39 cents each for 19 models (including the B-4 Flag Stop Station), 75 cents each for 14 models, $1.50 each for 3 models, through to $2.00 for 1 model - the B-31 Railroad Terminal. The B-7 Roundhouse was listed at $1.50.

As taken from one of Ideal Aeroplane & Supply Co. catalogs (unfortunately one of the few early manufacturers which left them undated), on their Tiny Town introduction, they wrote the following;

"These Railway accessories are acclaimed by builders everywhere as the most practical ever devised for 'HO'. They go together in surprisingly little time. Ideal kits come to you complete with strong die-cut boards, printed in realistic colors. Cellophane windows, chimney brick paper, full size plans and easy to follow instructions all combine to make their construction a real pleasure. No tools or painting are required. Put these buildings on your layout and see how much they improve it."

Catalog Listing:

B-1 Combination Station

B-2 Interlocking Tower

B-3 Suburban Station

B-4 Flag Stop Station

B-5 Water Tank

B-6 Crossing Gates (four) and Shanty

B-7 Roundhouse

B-8 Factory (w/skylights)

B-9 Coaling Station

B-10 Church

B-11 Freight Station

B-12 Oil Storage Depot

B-13 Dutch Colonial House

B-14 Two-Story Brick House

B-15 Block of Stores

B-16 School

B-17 New England Mansion

B-18 Old English House

B-19 California Bungalow

B-20 Frame House

B-21 Gas Station

B-22 Wayside Diner

B-23 Dummy Block Signals (3)

B-24 Signal Bridge (2 Track)

B-25 Landscape Moss

B-26 Two-Track Truss Bridge

B-27 Barn and Outbuilding

B-28 Farm House

B-29 Cape Cod Bungalow

B-30 Post Office

B-31 Railroad Terminal

B-32 Mine Building

B-33 Bank Building

B-34 4-Story Apartment

B-35 Movie House

B-36 Firehouse

B-37 Meat Packing Plant

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/19/2017 8:52:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi!

I'm a very recent member. I joined because I got tired of plastic everything, and really enjoy the character of wood and diecast freight cars.

This may be off topic a little, but has anyone built an Ideal Tiny Town kit? I was looking for a flag stop for my shelf layout (late 1940s early 1950s short line coal hauler) and discovered this one on eBay. Model number is B4, and according to the yellowed, crumbling instructions it was copyright 1939. I was intrigued to say the least; all parts were heavy cardboard except for a few windows and window frames.

I've got to admit it was a lot of fun to build something so "primitive." And the completed result was surprisingly pleasing to look at as well. I only added two things, a styrene "flag" and the station name. The back of the box lists quite a few other kits they offered. I just might be looking for kit B7, a roundhouse, now.

My huge thanks to the informational fi les available here. I've already made use of several and look forward to more in the future.

LEFCguy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26550	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

I use Campbell kits for structures and Labelle kits for cars.

I also buy older car kits on eBay. Silver Streak and Ulrich.

You can also find older Varney kit. Some with tha cardboard sides.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: lefcguy@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 11:48 AM

Subject: [vintageHO] Ideal building kits

Hi!

I'm a very recent member. I joined because I got tired of plastic everything, and really enjoy the character of wood and diecast freight cars.

This may be off topic a little, but has anyone built an Ideal Tiny Town kit? I was looking for a flag stop for my shelf layout (late 1940s early 1950s short line coal hauler) and discovered this one on eBay. Model number is B4, and according to the yellowed, crumbling instructions it was copyright 1939. I was intrigued to say the least; all parts were heavy cardboard except for a few windows and window frames.

I've got to admit it was a lot of fun to build something so "primitive." And the completed result was surprisingly pleasing to look at as well. I only added two things, a styrene "flag" and the station name. The back of the box lists quite a few other kits they offered. I just might be looking for kit B7, a roundhouse, now.

My huge thanks to the informational files available here. I've already made use of several and look forward to more in the future.

LEFCguy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26551	From: trainliker	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

Attachments :

www.hoseeker.net has a lot of info on Ideal (and almost everyone else – terrific resource). (“A lot” is an understatement.)

You click on the “Literature” tab and then the “Ideal” choice. In this case, it takes you to an “other” page with several companies including Ideal. It has instruction sheets for freight cars, buildings, and “information” which includes many catalogs.

Chuck . K.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 8:44 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ideal building kits

Hi LEFCguy,

As taken from one of Ideal Aeroplane & Supply Co. catalogs (unfortunately one of the few early manufacturers which left them undated), on their Tiny Town introduction, they wrote the following;

Catalog Listing:

B-1 Combination Station

B-2 Interlocking Tower

B-3 Suburban Station

B-4 Flag Stop Station

B-5 Water Tank

B-6 Crossing Gates (four) and Shanty

B-7 Roundhouse

B-8 Factory (w/skylights)

B-9 Coaling Station

B-10 Church

B-11 Freight Station

B-12 Oil Storage Depot

B-13 Dutch Colonial House

B-14 Two-Story Brick House

B-15 Block of Stores

B-16 School

B-17 New England Mansion

B-18 Old English House

B-19 California Bungalow

B-20 Frame House

B-21 Gas Station

B-22 Wayside Diner

B-23 Dummy Block Signals (3)

B-24 Signal Bridge (2 Track)

B-25 Landscape Moss

B-26 Two-Track Truss Bridge

B-27 Barn and Outbuilding

B-28 Farm House

B-29 Cape Cod Bungalow

B-30 Post Office

B-31 Railroad Terminal

B-32 Mine Building

B-33 Bank Building

B-34 4-Story Apartment

B-35 Movie House

B-36 Firehouse

B-37 Meat Packing Plant

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/19/2017 8:52:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi!

I'm a very recent member. I joined because I got tired of plastic everything, and really enjoy the character of wood and diecast freight cars.

This may be off topic a little, but has anyone built an Ideal Tiny Town kit? I was looking for a flag stop for my shelf layout (late 1940s early 1950s short line coal hauler) and discovered this one on eBay. Model number is B4, and according to the yellowed, crumbling instructions it was copyright 1939. I was intrigued to say the least; all parts were heavy cardboard except for a few windows and window frames.

I've got to admit it was a lot of fun to build something so "primitive." And the completed result was surprisingly pleasing to look at as well. I only added two things, a styrene "flag" and the station name. The back of the box lists quite a few other kits they offered. I just might be looking for kit B7, a roundhouse, now.

My huge thanks to the informational fi les available here. I've already made use of several and look forward to more in the future.

LEFCguy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26552	From: Rick Jones	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

On 11/19/2017 11:03 AM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

>
>
> www.hoseeker.net <http://www.hoseeker.net> has a lot of info on Ideal
> (and almost everyone else – terrific resource). (“A lot” is an
> understatement.)
>
> You click on the “Literature” tab and then the “Ideal” choice. In this
> case, it takes you to an “other” page with several companies including
> Ideal. It has instruction sheets for freight cars, buildings, and
> “information” which includes many catalogs.
>
> http://hoseeker.net/otherhotrains9.html

Is this Ideal related in any way to the Ideal toy company from the '60s?

--

Rick Jones

Practicing religion is like having sex - the best place for it
is locked away behind closed doors where others don't have to see
and hear you doing it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26553	From: trainliker	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

Attachments :

I’m going to guess there was no relation. Wikipedia says the “Ideal Toy Company” started in 1903 as the “Ideal Novelty and Toy Company” and changed the name to “Ideal Toy Company” in 1938.

The company we are dealing with here is “Ideal Models”. Different company name.

Today, companies, especially larger ones, are hyper sensitive about others using names identical, or even similar, to theirs and usually start by sending a nastygram to you (“cease and desist” letter). Either Ideal Toy Company didn’t notice, or didn’t care, or the names were considered different enough, or the markets considered different enough, or something. By the way, trademarking a name doesn’t mean nobody else can use it. It means nobody can use it such that it could be confused with your usage. Many words are trademarked by many people, but in different fields. The typical example is “Delta” which is an airline and also a faucet.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 9:26 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ideal building kits

On 11/19/2017 11:03 AM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

>
>
> www.hoseeker.net <http://www.hoseeker.net> has a lot of info on Ideal
> (and almost everyone else – terrific resource). (“A lot” is an
> understatement.)
>
> You click on the “Literature” tab and then the “Ideal” choice. In this
> case, it takes you to an “other” page with several companies including
> Ideal. It has instruction sheets for freight cars, buildings, and
> “information” which includes many catalogs.
>
> http://hoseeker.net/otherhotrains9.html

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26554	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

Attachments :

Agreed -- several of us have mentioned HOSeeker numerous times in the past as a great source of H0 information. While Larry doesn't have everything at his disposal, it's only because he hasn't yet received it from others who continually contribute to his site. Noting the "advertisements" (as Advertisement 1 and Advertisement 2) under his Ideal Information column, these pages are identical to those in the 16 page Ideal Catalog I quoted from, as page 1 and page 2 (not counting the front cover and inside cover) of this publication. As Larry describes them as advertisements (and doesn't list a 1940's catalog that included them), it seems to appear that these pages may also have been used as sell sheets for stores to order from.

Going over what Larry includes under Ideal, and while he doesn't include the Ideal catalog I have in my collection, his literature concludes that my catalog is from the late 1940's, including the 4-Story Apartment and the Coal Mine (Mine Building) from 1947 and the Movie House from 1948. In the late 1950's it appears that at least some of these structures came factory-built and electrified (lighted and/or motorized), which weren't available in the previous decade - as noted by Larry's 1959 Ideal Catalog.

As per Dave Spanagel's "The Reporting Mark" (HO Scale Collectors & History SIG - NMRA) publication, of Ideal Models he (Dave) writes that up through 1953, they added several more structures in addition to what the late 1940's catalog stated -- those included were; B-38 - 2-Stall Engine House, B-39 - Hotel, B-40 - (Five) 12" Passenger Platforms, B-41- Icing Plant, B-42 - Landscape Hedge, B-43 - Paper Mill and B-100 - 14" Motor-Driven Turntable. Again, per D. Spanagel, Ideal's first ad in MR appeared in March 1939 and production continued through October 1942 when they went to War-effort production. As they used little if any metals in their kits, they were able to manufacture H0 kits into the first year of America's involvement in the War. They resumed post-War production by June 1946.

While HOSeeker is a good info resource, adding to and using our files should not be overlooked especially when they're readily available on site, and can compliment (sometimes even add to) what information Larry makes available.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/19/2017 12:04:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

www.hoseeker.net has a lot of info on Ideal (and almost everyone else – terrific resource). (“A lot” is an understatement.)

You click on the “Literature” tab and then the “Ideal” choice. In this case, it takes you to an “other” page with several companies including Ideal. It has instruction sheets for freight cars, buildings, and “information” which includes many catalogs.

http://hoseeker.net/otherhotrains9.html

Chuck . K.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 8:44 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ideal building kits

Hi LEFCguy,

Glad to see you found this group. Let me be one of the first to welcome you here. If you're into the older era of modeling, I'm sure you'll enjoy it here -- and I see you've already perused the files area. Ideal is surely not off-topic; this manufacturer is among many which we appreciate as "primo." So, you're right on topic! Viewing your photo of the B-4 Flag Stop Station, it appears you did a nice job. These kits may be primitive to some, but they build up into very acceptable looking models. Back in the day, cardstock and Strathmore board were heavily used and to good effect.

As with most of the other Yahoogroups on the 'Net, this group too has tapered off in discussions lately, but interesting topics do come up when the occasion arises. I don't know if the back of your kit box shows all the structure kits this manufacturer produced, but they made a total of 37 such structure kits, while 28 of them are illustrated in their catalog. All photos are extremely presentable as fine looking models, not appearing crude or "primitive" at all. For that matter, I don't recall if any of us made a file on Ideal, especially of their structures, although I don't believe so. For your benefit as well as for others, I'll make a brief listing of them below. While the catalog includes each model's area dimensions (length & width), showing how much room they'll take up on one's layout, I'll attempt to include these at a later date. Their pricing at that time ranged from 39 cents each for 19 models (including the B-4 Flag Stop Station), 75 cents each for 14 models, $1.50 each for 3 models, through to $2.00 for 1 model - the B-31 Railroad Terminal. The B-7 Roundhouse was listed at $1.50.

As taken from one of Ideal Aeroplane & Supply Co. catalogs (unfortunately one of the few early manufacturers which left them undated), on their Tiny Town introduction, they wrote the following;

"These Railway accessories are acclaimed by builders everywhere as the most practical ever devised for 'HO'. They go together in surprisingly little time. Ideal kits come to you complete with strong die-cut boards, printed in realistic colors. Cellophane windows, chimney brick paper, full size plans and easy to follow instructions all combine to make their construction a real pleasure. No tools or painting are required. Put these buildings on your layout and see how much they improve it."

Catalog Listing:

B-1 Combination Station

B-2 Interlocking Tower

B-3 Suburban Station

B-4 Flag Stop Station

B-5 Water Tank

B-6 Crossing Gates (four) and Shanty

B-7 Roundhouse

B-8 Factory (w/skylights)

B-9 Coaling Station

B-10 Church

B-11 Freight Station

B-12 Oil Storage Depot

B-13 Dutch Colonial House

B-14 Two-Story Brick House

B-15 Block of Stores

B-16 School

B-17 New England Mansion

B-18 Old English House

B-19 California Bungalow

B-20 Frame House

B-21 Gas Station

B-22 Wayside Diner

B-23 Dummy Block Signals (3)

B-24 Signal Bridge (2 Track)

B-25 Landscape Moss

B-26 Two-Track Truss Bridge

B-27 Barn and Outbuilding

B-28 Farm House

B-29 Cape Cod Bungalow

B-30 Post Office

B-31 Railroad Terminal

B-32 Mine Building

B-33 Bank Building

B-34 4-Story Apartment

B-35 Movie House

B-36 Firehouse

B-37 Meat Packing Plant

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/19/2017 8:52:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi!

I'm a very recent member. I joined because I got tired of plastic everything, and really enjoy the character of wood and diecast freight cars.

This may be off topic a little, but has anyone built an Ideal Tiny Town kit? I was looking for a flag stop for my shelf layout (late 1940s early 1950s short line coal hauler) and discovered this one on eBay. Model number is B4, and according to the yellowed, crumbling instructions it was copyright 1939. I was intrigued to say the least; all parts were heavy cardboard except for a few windows and window frames.

I've got to admit it was a lot of fun to build something so "primitive." And the completed result was surprisingly pleasing to look at as well. I only added two things, a styrene "flag" and the station name. The back of the box lists quite a few other kits they offered. I just might be looking for kit B7, a roundhouse, now.

My huge thanks to the informational fi les available here. I've already made use of several and look forward to more in the future.

LEFCguy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26555	From: Dale Smith	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

A.C. Gilbert also marketed Ideal made products in the early 60's as part of their HO line. They are all illustrated on gilbertho.org. This includes the cardstock kits Suburban station as #35254, Factory as #35256, Dutch Colonial as #35250, Ranch House as #35251, and Split Level as #35253, as well as many plastic accessories. All of these cease to be a Gilbert collectibles if removed from their Gilbert packaging. Kind of a sad ending.

Dale Smith

On 11/19/2017 9:03 AM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

www.hoseeker.net has a lot of info on Ideal (and almost everyone else – terrific resource). (“A lot” is an understatement.)

You click on the “Literature” tab and then the “Ideal” choice. In this case, it takes you to an “other” page with several companies including Ideal. It has instruction sheets for freight cars, buildings, and “information” which includes many catalogs.

http://hoseeker.net/otherhotrains9.html

Chuck . K.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 8:44 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ideal building kits

Hi LEFCguy,

Glad to see you found this group. Let me be one of the first to welcome you here. If you're into the older era of modeling, I'm sure you'll enjoy it here -- and I see you've already perused the files area. Ideal is surely not off-topic; this manufacturer is among many which we appreciate as "primo." So, you're right on topic! Viewing your photo of the B-4 Flag Stop Station, it appears you did a nice job. These kits may be primitive to some, but they build up into very acceptable looking models. Back in the day, cardstock and Strathmore board were heavily used and to good effect.

As with most of the other Yahoogroups on the 'Net, this group too has tapered off in discussions lately, but interesting topics do come up when the occasion arises. I don't know if the back of your kit box shows all the structure kits this manufacturer produced, but they made a total of 37 such structure kits, while 28 of them are illustrated in their catalog. All photos are extremely presentable as fine looking models, not appearing crude or "primitive" at all. For that matter, I don't recall if any of us made a file on Ideal, especially of their structures, although I don't believe so. For your benefit as well as for others, I'll make a brief listing of them below. While the catalog includes each model's area dimensions (length & width), showing how much room they'll take up on one's layout, I'll attempt to include these at a later date. Their pricing at that time ranged from 39 cents each for 19 models (including the B-4 Flag Stop Station), 75 cents each for 14 models, $1.50 each for 3 models, through to $2.00 for 1 model - the B-31 Railroad Terminal. The B-7 Roundhouse was listed at $1.50.

As taken from one of Ideal Aeroplane & Supply Co. catalogs (unfortunately one of the few early manufacturers which left them undated), on their Tiny Town introduction, they wrote the following;

"These Railway accessories are acclaimed by builders everywhere as the most practical ever devised for 'HO'. They go together in surprisingly little time. Ideal kits come to you complete with strong die-cut boards, printed in realistic colors. Cellophane windows, chimney brick paper, full size plans and easy to follow instructions all combine to make their construction a real pleasure. No tools or painting are required. Put these buildings on your layout and see how much they improve it."

Catalog Listing:

B-1 Combination Station

B-2 Interlocking Tower

B-3 Suburban Station

B-4 Flag Stop Station

B-5 Water Tank

B-6 Crossing Gates (four) and Shanty

B-7 Roundhouse

B-8 Factory (w/skylights)

B-9 Coaling Station

B-10 Church

B-11 Freight Station

B-12 Oil Storage Depot

B-13 Dutch Colonial House

B-14 Two-Story Brick House

B-15 Block of Stores

B-16 School

B-17 New England Mansion

B-18 Old English House

B-19 California Bungalow

B-20 Frame House

B-21 Gas Station

B-22 Wayside Diner

B-23 Dummy Block Signals (3)

B-24 Signal Bridge (2 Track)

B-25 Landscape Moss

B-26 Two-Track Truss Bridge

B-27 Barn and Outbuilding

B-28 Farm House

B-29 Cape Cod Bungalow

B-30 Post Office

B-31 Railroad Terminal

B-32 Mine Building

B-33 Bank Building

B-34 4-Story Apartment

B-35 Movie House

B-36 Firehouse

B-37 Meat Packing Plant

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/19/2017 8:52:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi!

I'm a very recent member. I joined because I got tired of plastic everything, and really enjoy the character of wood and diecast freight cars.

This may be off topic a little, but has anyone built an Ideal Tiny Town kit? I was looking for a flag stop for my shelf layout (late 1940s early 1950s short line coal hauler) and discovered this one on eBay. Model number is B4, and according to the yellowed, crumbling instructions it was copyright 1939. I was intrigued to say the least; all parts were heavy cardboard except for a few windows and window frames.

I've got to admit it was a lot of fun to build something so "primitive." And the completed result was surprisingly pleasing to look at as well. I only added two things, a styrene "flag" and the station name. The back of the box lists quite a few other kits they offered. I just might be looking for kit B7, a roundhouse, now.

My huge thanks to the informational fi les available here. I've already made use of several and look forward to more in the future.

LEFCguy

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26556	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

For a well known and respected company like A.C. Gilbert to have used Ideal cardstock kits, this company (Ideal) had to be top quality and presentable. Interesting that A.C. Gilbert used them. Most all H0 items retain the most value when their packaging/boxes are kept to store them in. It's easy to see why these Gilbert collectibles would lose value though, when they would look like any other Ideal product without Gilbert's packaging. Here's where the modeler needs to decide either to use it or stash it. Doubtful one would make a bundle on any of these the same as saving the first Superman comic book in mint condition. Might as well get your enjoyment out of them unless collecting is imperative to one's train of thought. Okay, pun possibly intended < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/19/2017 4:02:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A.C. Gilbert also marketed Ideal made products in the early 60's as part of their HO line. They are all illustrated on gilbertho.org. This includes the cardstock kits Suburban station as #35254, Factory as #35256, Dutch Colonial as #35250, Ranch House as #35251, and Split Level as #35253, as well as many plastic accessories. All of these cease to be a Gilbert collectibles if removed from their Gilbert packaging. Kind of a sad ending.

Dale Smith

On 11/19/2017 9:03 AM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

www.hoseeker.net has a lot of info on Ideal (and almost everyone else – terrific resource). (“A lot” is an understatement.)

You click on the “Literature” tab and then the “Ideal” choice. In this case, it takes you to an “other” page with several companies including Ideal. It has instruction sheets for freight cars, buildings, and “information” which includes many catalogs.

http://hoseeker.net/otherhotrains9.html

Chuck . K.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 8:44 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ideal building kits

Hi LEFCguy,

Glad to see you found this group. Let me be one of the first to welcome you here. If you're into the older era of modeling, I'm sure you'll enjoy it here -- and I see you've already perused the files area. Ideal is surely not off-topic; this manufacturer is among many which we appreciate as "primo." So, you're right on topic! Viewing your photo of the B-4 Flag Stop Station, it appears you did a nice job. These kits may be primitive to some, but they build up into very acceptable looking models. Back in the day, cardstock and Strathmore board were heavily used and to good effect.

As with most of the other Yahoogroups on the 'Net, this group too has tapered off in discussions lately, but interesting topics do come up when the occasion arises. I don't know if the back of your kit box shows all the structure kits this manufacturer produced, but they made a total of 37 such structure kits, while 28 of them are illustrated in their catalog. All photos are extremely presentable as fine looking models, not appearing crude or "primitive" at all. For that matter, I don't recall if any of us made a file on Ideal, especially of their structures, although I don't believe so. For your benefit as well as for others, I'll make a brief listing of them below. While the catalog includes each model's area dimensions (length & width), showing how much room they'll take up on one's layout, I'll attempt to include these at a later date. Their pricing at that time ranged from 39 cents each for 19 models (including the B-4 Flag Stop Station), 75 cents each for 14 models, $1.50 each for 3 models, through to $2.00 for 1 model - the B-31 Railroad Terminal. The B-7 Roundhouse was listed at $1.50.

As taken from one of Ideal Aeroplane & Supply Co. catalogs (unfortunately one of the few early manufacturers which left them undated), on their Tiny Town introduction, they wrote the following;

"These Railway accessories are acclaimed by builders everywhere as the most practical ever devised for 'HO'. They go together in surprisingly little time. Ideal kits come to you complete with strong die-cut boards, printed in realistic colors. Cellophane windows, chimney brick paper, full size plans and easy to follow instructions all combine to make their construction a real pleasure. No tools or painting are required. Put these buildings on your layout and see how much they improve it."

Catalog Listing:

B-1 Combination Station

B-2 Interlocking Tower

B-3 Suburban Station

B-4 Flag Stop Station

B-5 Water Tank

B-6 Crossing Gates (four) and Shanty

B-7 Roundhouse

B-8 Factory (w/skylights)

B-9 Coaling Station

B-10 Church

B-11 Freight Station

B-12 Oil Storage Depot

B-13 Dutch Colonial House

B-14 Two-Story Brick House

B-15 Block of Stores

B-16 School

B-17 New England Mansion

B-18 Old English House

B-19 California Bungalow

B-20 Frame House

B-21 Gas Station

B-22 Wayside Diner

B-23 Dummy Block Signals (3)

B-24 Signal Bridge (2 Track)

B-25 Landscape Moss

B-26 Two-Track Truss Bridge

B-27 Barn and Outbuilding

B-28 Farm House

B-29 Cape Cod Bungalow

B-30 Post Office

B-31 Railroad Terminal

B-32 Mine Building

B-33 Bank Building

B-34 4-Story Apartment

B-35 Movie House

B-36 Firehouse

B-37 Meat Packing Plant

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/19/2017 8:52:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi!

I'm a very recent member. I joined because I got tired of plastic everything, and really enjoy the character of wood and diecast freight cars.

This may be off topic a little, but has anyone built an Ideal Tiny Town kit? I was looking for a flag stop for my shelf layout (late 1940s early 1950s short line coal hauler) and discovered this one on eBay. Model number is B4, and according to the yellowed, crumbling instructions it was copyright 1939. I was intrigued to say the least; all parts were heavy cardboard except for a few windows and window frames.

I've got to admit it was a lot of fun to build something so "primitive." And the completed result was surprisingly pleasing to look at as well. I only added two things, a styrene "flag" and the station name. The back of the box lists quite a few other kits they offered. I just might be looking for kit B7, a roundhouse, now.

My huge thanks to the informational fi les available here. I've already made use of several and look forward to more in the future.

LEFCguy

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26557	From: Dale Smith	Date: 11/19/2017
Subject: Re: Ideal building kits

I was surprised myself to see these card stock kits marketed in the early 60's, the age of plastic buldings, like those by Revell. As to the packaging, a lot of it was blister packs, which get destroyed if opened. As to value, latest value of the card stock kits in Gilbert packaging is around $45. I am not a big fan of boxes, so I try not to collect items that are dependent on them for their value. I like to see things being used or at least displayed as they were intended to be seen.

Dale Smith

On 11/19/2017 1:59 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

For a well known and respected company like A.C. Gilbert to have used Ideal cardstock kits, this company (Ideal) had to be top quality and presentable. Interesting that A.C. Gilbert used them. Most all H0 items retain the most value when their packaging/boxes are kept to store them in. It's easy to see why these Gilbert collectibles would lose value though, when they would look like any other Ideal product without Gilbert's packaging. Here's where the modeler needs to decide either to use it or stash it. Doubtful one would make a bundle on any of these the same as saving the first Superman comic book in mint condition. Might as well get your enjoyment out of them unless collecting is imperative to one's train of thought. Okay, pun possibly intended < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/19/2017 4:02:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A.C. Gilbert also marketed Ideal made products in the early 60's as part of their HO line. They are all illustrated on gilbertho.org. This includes the cardstock kits Suburban station as #35254, Factory as #35256, Dutch Colonial as #35250, Ranch House as #35251, and Split Level as #35253, as well as many plastic accessories. All of these cease to be a Gilbert collectibles if removed from their Gilbert packaging. Kind of a sad ending.

Dale Smith

On 11/19/2017 9:03 AM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

www.hoseeker.net has a lot of info on Ideal (and almost everyone else – terrific resource). (“A lot” is an understatement.)

You click on the “Literature” tab and then the “Ideal” choice. In this case, it takes you to an “other” page with several companies including Ideal. It has instruction sheets for freight cars, buildings, and “information” which includes many catalogs.

http://hoseeker.net/otherhotrains9.html

Chuck . K.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 8:44 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ideal building kits

Hi LEFCguy,

Glad to see you found this group. Let me be one of the first to welcome you here. If you're into the older era of modeling, I'm sure you'll enjoy it here -- and I see you've already perused the files area. Ideal is surely not off-topic; this manufacturer is among many which we appreciate as "primo." So, you're right on topic! Viewing your photo of the B-4 Flag Stop Station, it appears you did a nice job. These kits may be primitive to some, but they build up into very acceptable looking models. Back in the day, cardstock and Strathmore board were heavily used and to good effect.

As with most of the other Yahoogroups on the 'Net, this group too has tapered off in discussions lately, but interesting topics do come up when the occasion arises. I don't know if the back of your kit box shows all the structure kits this manufacturer produced, but they made a total of 37 such structure kits, while 28 of them are illustrated in their catalog. All photos are extremely presentable as fine looking models, not appearing crude or "primitive" at all. For that matter, I don't recall if any of us made a file on Ideal, especially of their structures, although I don't believe so. For your benefit as well as for others, I'll make a brief listing of them below. While the catalog includes each model's area dimensions (length & width), showing how much room they'll take up on one's layout, I'll attempt to include these at a later date. Their pricing at that time ranged from 39 cents each for 19 models (including the B-4 Flag Stop Station), 75 cents each for 14 models, $1.50 each for 3 models, through to $2.00 for 1 model - the B-31 Railroad Terminal. The B-7 Roundhouse was listed at $1.50.

As taken from one of Ideal Aeroplane & Supply Co. catalogs (unfortunately one of the few early manufacturers which left them undated), on their Tiny Town introduction, they wrote the following;

"These Railway accessories are acclaimed by builders everywhere as the most practical ever devised for 'HO'. They go together in surprisingly little time. Ideal kits come to you complete with strong die-cut boards, printed in realistic colors. Cellophane windows, chimney brick paper, full size plans and easy to follow instructions all combine to make their construction a real pleasure. No tools or painting are required. Put these buildings on your layout and see how much they improve it."

Catalog Listing:

B-1 Combination Station

B-2 Interlocking Tower

B-3 Suburban Station

B-4 Flag Stop Station

B-5 Water Tank

B-6 Crossing Gates (four) and Shanty

B-7 Roundhouse

B-8 Factory (w/skylights)

B-9 Coaling Station

B-10 Church

B-11 Freight Station

B-12 Oil Storage Depot

B-13 Dutch Colonial House

B-14 Two-Story Brick House

B-15 Block of Stores

B-16 School

B-17 New England Mansion

B-18 Old English House

B-19 California Bungalow

B-20 Frame House

B-21 Gas Station

B-22 Wayside Diner

B-23 Dummy Block Signals (3)

B-24 Signal Bridge (2 Track)

B-25 Landscape Moss

B-26 Two-Track Truss Bridge

B-27 Barn and Outbuilding

B-28 Farm House

B-29 Cape Cod Bungalow

B-30 Post Office

B-31 Railroad Terminal

B-32 Mine Building

B-33 Bank Building

B-34 4-Story Apartment

B-35 Movie House

B-36 Firehouse

B-37 Meat Packing Plant

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/19/2017 8:52:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi!

I'm a very recent member. I joined because I got tired of plastic everything, and really enjoy the character of wood and diecast freight cars.

This may be off topic a little, but has anyone built an Ideal Tiny Town kit? I was looking for a flag stop for my shelf layout (late 1940s early 1950s short line coal hauler) and discovered this one on eBay. Model number is B4, and according to the yellowed, crumbling instructions it was copyright 1939. I was intrigued to say the least; all parts were heavy cardboard except for a few windows and window frames.

I've got to admit it was a lot of fun to build something so "primitive." And the completed result was surprisingly pleasing to look at as well. I only added two things, a styrene "flag" and the station name. The back of the box lists quite a few other kits they offered. I just might be looking for kit B7, a roundhouse, now.

My huge thanks to the informational fi les available here. I've already made use of several and look forward to more in the future.

LEFCguy

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26558	From: greenbrier614	Date: 11/21/2017
Subject: Old Cast Brass Hudson

Hi guys,

It's been a while since I've posted here, and I've been meaning to run this by you as I'm sure someone here will recognize this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-HO-SCALE-PAINTED-BRASS-LOCOMOTIVE-amp-TENDER-HEAVY-/112612458854

That is some heavy duty construction, and most of the parts look like sand castings. The only ID is a capital N on most of the parts, but I couldn't find anything under N on HOSeeker. I was considering bidding if the price stayed low, but was surprised the final bid. Someone knows its value.

Any ideas?

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26559	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/21/2017
Subject: Re: Old Cast Brass Hudson

Nelson,

Was unable to bring this item up, possibly because as it appears it's no longer listed by eBay -- since you mention "but was surprised by the final bid," -- meaning this auction is now closed. Not in the too distant past, just entering the eBay number in an eBay search would bring the item up even if it were closed. Lately, at least as the results I'm able to get, eBay no longer provides closed sites when a search is put in for it. Perhaps others here have different results (?).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/21/2017 9:47:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi guys,

It's been a while since I've posted here, and I've been meaning to run this by you as I'm sure someone here will recognize this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-HO-SCALE-PAINTED-BRASS-LOCOMOTIVE-amp-TENDER-HEAVY-/112612458854

That is some heavy duty construction, and most of the parts look like sand castings. The only ID is a capital N on most of the parts, but I couldn't find anything under N on HOSeeker. I was considering bidding if the price stayed low, but was surprised the final bid. Someone knows its value.

Any ideas?

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26560	From: greenbrier614	Date: 11/21/2017
Subject: Re: Old Cast Brass Hudson

Hi Ray,

Strange... the link works in FF, Chrome, and Edge for me. Yes, it is a completed listing though. Maybe it's affected by region? The auction number is 112612458854, and the final bid was $306.99.

Here's a tinyurl link and auction images.

https://tinyurl.com/y8mrm44g

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/mqEAAOSw~vpZ7Ag2/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/mqEAAOSw~vpZ7Ag2/s...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/r0UAAOSwUn9Z7AhF/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/r0UAAOSwUn9Z7AhF/s-...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e8MAAOSwridZ7AhI/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e8MAAOSwridZ7AhI/s-l...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/F~kAAOSwe09Z7AhB/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/F~kAAOSwe09Z7AhB/s-...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ECIAAOSwHYpZ7AhZ/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ECIAAOSwHYpZ7AhZ/s-...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26561	From: william witte	Date: 11/22/2017
Subject: Re: Old Cast Brass Hudson

Hi, looks like a Nason OO

From: "greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Cast Brass Hudson


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/mqEAAOSw~vpZ7Ag2/s...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/r0UAAOSwUn9Z7AhF/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/r0UAAOSwUn9Z7AhF/s-...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e8MAAOSwridZ7AhI/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e8MAAOSwridZ7AhI/s-l...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/F~kAAOSwe09Z7AhB/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/F~kAAOSwe09Z7AhB/s-...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ECIAAOSwHYpZ7AhZ/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ECIAAOSwHYpZ7AhZ/s-...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26562	From: william witte	Date: 11/22/2017
Subject: Re: Old Cast Brass Hudson

Nelson,

My guess Nason OO

From: "greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 9:48 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Old Cast Brass Hudson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26563	From: greenbrier614	Date: 11/22/2017
Subject: Re: Old Cast Brass Hudson

Thanks, William. That's exactly what it is.

http://americanoo.blogspot.com/2010/11/nason-hudson-kit.html

Nason is not a company I'd ever heard of.

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26564	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/22/2017
Subject: Re: Old Cast Brass Hudson

Never trust how some people describe stuff especially if they aren’t heavily into trains. This seller does slot cars.

This is a Nason OO scale Hudson.

The models components varied through its production run but the circled “N” and the “202” on the various components down under are certain identifiers.

Hers a link to another,

http://tinyurl.com/ybobd525

This one has some added “streamlining” added for some inane reason and it is a different production run, later I would think. But they are both NYC Hudson’s and both have the N and 202 on the chassis components.

If you think the $306.99 is a lot the other one has a $899.99 But It Now.

Could Nason have produced some HO stuff? Maybe but that would be news to me. In fact I was surprised to find they did any OO. Previously I had only been aware their S scale products.

And that 202 has to be a model or part number and I don’t see that frame cover being the same on an HO model.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Cast Brass Hudson


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/mqEAAOSw~vpZ7Ag2/s...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/r0UAAOSwUn9Z7AhF/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/r0UAAOSwUn9Z7AhF/s-...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e8MAAOSwridZ7AhI/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e8MAAOSwridZ7AhI/s-l...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/F~kAAOSwe09Z7AhB/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/F~kAAOSwe09Z7AhB/s-...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ECIAAOSwHYpZ7AhZ/s-l1600.jpg


			https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ECIAAOSwHYpZ7AhZ/s-...
			View on i.ebayimg.com	Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26565	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/22/2017
Subject: Re: Old Cast Brass Hudson

Yeah, and there is the old farts that can’t remember sh… er, stuff.

Nason did not do any S scale, it was all OO.

Anyway, for whatever reason, when I saw the encircled “N” I immediately though Nason. Apparently I was relying on what I laughingly refer to as my mind too mush. I mean much, but then mush somehow works too.

Got the name right but not the scale. Oh well….

I guess as long as can still see the grass from the green side I’m doing OK.

But I detest having to correct my own posts.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:25 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old Cast Brass Hudson

Never trust how some people describe stuff especially if they aren’t heavily into trains. This seller does slot cars.

This is a Nason OO scale Hudson.

The models components varied through its production run but the circled “N” and the “202” on the various components down under are certain identifiers.

Hers a link to another,

http://tinyurl.com/ybobd525

If you think the $306.99 is a lot the other one has a $899.99 But It Now.

Could Nason have produced some HO stuff? Maybe but that would be news to me. In fact I was surprised to find they did any OO. Previously I had only been aware their S scale products.

And that 202 has to be a model or part number and I don’t see that frame cover being the same on an HO model.

John Hagen

Posted by: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (7)

http://beta.latimes.com/topic/business/media-industry/online-media-industry/marissa-mayer-PEBSL000941-topic.html

· New Members 1

· New Photos 2

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26566	From: greenbrier614	Date: 11/25/2017
Subject: Re: Old Cast Brass Hudson

John,

I wasn't able to reply for a few days because the reply button didn't work.

What I find interesting is that the crank pins look like literal pins with very small heads, almost like they were peened over by a hammer and don't look at all removable.

Given that the kit required so much machining I wonder if side rod screws were even included.

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26567	From: trainliker	Date: 11/30/2017
Subject: Campbell Scale Models Quincy building year introduced

Does anybody know when Campbell Scale Models introduced their collection of structures based on Quincy, California?

The article on the prototype structures was in the April, 1963 Model Railroader.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26568	From: rhbale8	Date: 11/30/2017
Subject: Re: Campbell Scale Models Quincy building year introduced

The Quincy series was not listed in Leo Campbell's 1974 price list. The ten Quincy kits are included in the 1977 price list however instead of a retail price it states "not available".

The Quincy series was fairly complex to produce and did not sell as well as Leo had expected. I don't recall the specifics but there was also some discussion about the rights or royalties in the commercial use of material that had appeared in Model Railroader. All in all, the Quincy series was a disappointment to Leo. I moved to San Diego in the mid-70s and was no longer privy to conversations with Leo and his business mentor Tom Ayres.

The demand for Campbell kits throughout the 1970s was huge. Leo had more than a dozen employees in the shop working full time. He was under pressure to unionize and did not particularly enjoy the big city life-style of Southern California. It was also about that time that he lost Sherry Collins, his creative right arm, to cancer. In the late 1970s Campbell moved his operation from Santa Ana, CA to Durango CO. His talented saw operator, Mike Long, did not make the move to Colorado and that may have had some influence on which kits would be produced. All of this is probably more than you wanted to know.

Long story short -- I think the Quincy series was introduced over a period of 18 months about 1975-76.

Richard Bale

In a message dated 11/30/2017 3:35:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Does anybody know when Campbell Scale Models introduced their collection of structures based on Quincy, California?

The article on the prototype structures was in the April, 1963 Model Railroader.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26569	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/1/2017
Subject: Re: Campbell Scale Models Quincy building year introduced

The information presented here below is most valuable, in that little has been seen on the inside goings-on of the Campbell's Scale Models company. Their quality was on par with the best of the structure kit manufacturers of the time. While it's not clear how closely Walthers followed Campbell between the times when this manufacturer (Campbell) released their products and when Walthers included these kits in their catalogs, but there does appear to be some lag in time if Campbell's Quincy kits were released in 1977 (especially if all 10 kits were released that year), as Walthers includes none of the Quincy kits in their Campbell's offerings for the year 1977, nor for any earlier catalogs.

The Campbell's Quincy kits are seen in Walthers' 1979 catalog, and then, while they're all listed, only four of them (#'s 200-401 Engine House, 200-402 Quincy Station, 200-403 Auxillary Sheds & Signs and 200-406 Oil Warehouse & Office were priced and available. It was noted: "For Future Release . . . " 200-404 Traveling Crane, 200-405 Fuel Oil Deck, 200-407 Fuel Tanks & Loading Racks, 200-408 Horizontal Fuel Tanks, 200-409 Compound House and 200-410 Small Fuel Loading Rack; these last six structure were released by Walthers over the next fours years, a few at a time, while some of the first ones offered were discontinued (by Walthers).

In 1980, Walthers added the # 200-405 Fuel Oil Dock to the previous four models, noting again that the five remaining Quincy kits were "For Future Release." Again, it's unclear if Campbells was producing these five remaining kits at this time when Walthers earmarked them for future release. In 1983, Walthers came out with #'s 200-404, 200-407, 200-408 and 200-409 as "NEW." The # 200-410 came out as "NEW" somewhere between 1980 and 1983. By 1984, the # 200-401 no longer appeared in Walthers' catalogs.

For those not familiar with this Quincy series of ten kits that Campbells produced, as Chuck states, they're based on prototype structures in Quincy, CA -- and along the 3-mile long Quincy Railroad in that small agricultural community in the Feather River area of that state. The railroad was owned by Giorgio Fruit Company and connected to the Western Pacific RR at Quincy Junction. Walthers includes a map in every catalog that carries these Campbells Quincy kits, portraying the layout of the Quincy Railroad and the exact placement of these ten structures along this line.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 11/30/2017 9:57:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The Quincy series was not listed in Leo Campbell's 1974 price list. The ten Quincy kits are included in the 1977 price list however instead of a retail price it states "not available".

The Quincy series was fairly complex to produce and did not sell as well as Leo had expected. I don't recall the specifics but there was also some discussion about the rights or royalties in the commercial use of material that had appeared in Model Railroader. All in all, the Quincy series was a disappointment to Leo. I moved to San Diego in the mid-70s and was no longer privy to conversations with Leo and his business mentor Tom Ayres.

The demand for Campbell kits throughout the 1970s was huge. Leo had more than a dozen employees in the shop working full time. He was under pressure to unionize and did not particularly enjoy the big city life-style of Southern California. It was also about that time that he lost Sherry Collins, his creative right arm, to cancer. In the late 1970s Campbell moved his operation from Santa Ana, CA to Durango CO. His talented saw operator, Mike Long, did not make the move to Colorado and that may have had some influence on which kits would be produced. All of this is probably more than you wanted to know.

Long story short -- I think the Quincy series was introduced over a period of 18 months about 1975-76.

Richard Bale

In a message dated 11/30/2017 3:35:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Does anybody know when Campbell Scale Models introduced their collection of structures based on Quincy, California?

The article on the prototype structures was in the April, 1963 Model Railroader.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Posted by: Rhbale@...

Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26570	From: jackdziadul	Date: 12/3/2017
Subject: Campbell Scale Models Quincy building year introduced

Richard and Ray, very interesting history. Thank you taking the time to post.

Jack Dziadul

Sanford, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26571	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/3/2017
Subject: Re: Campbell Scale Models - Ayres Scale Models

Jack,

You're quite welcome. Not seeing much on this topic myself, I had hoped it might be of interest to others here. It was my pleasure to add to Richard's most valuable input on this manufacturer, as I indicated his content presented with/below mine being as such. Up until seeing Richard's information on Campbell Scale Models, I knew little about Leo Campbell, his mentor Tom Ayers or any of his staff of over a dozen employees, Sherry Collins and Mike Long included. The name Tom Ayers (Thomas J. Ayers) -- or just "Ayers" -- may be familiar with some of our members as he established Ayers Scale Models Inc., which first advertisements appeared in MR in April 1948.

This manufacturer (Ayers Scale Models) was probably best known for their five different "Diamond Stack Days" freight car kits, a full line of structures, four bridges and at least eleven passenger (w/one caboose, and one [Athearn] RDC) car interior kits, mostly for Walthers "Varnish" cars. I have a letter (Ayers Scale Models letterhead) dated February 3, 1953, signed by Thomas J. Ayers explaining the then currently available kits with a catalog (#12) included. A subsequent catalog (#20) even indicates that they offered building material -- Strip & Sheet Wood and Structural Shapes (I-Beams, H-Columns, U-Channels and L - Angles) of Ponderosa Pine. One great looking model they offered was an H0 Vanderbilt Tender (No. 151) Kit of wood, drill to accept weight to properly ballast it for best tracking. While I have some of the Diamond Stack Days" kits (No. 202 Gondola Car, 204 Drop-Bottom Hopper Car and 205 Hopper-Bottom Gondola), I have yet to come across the No. 151 Vanderbilt Tender, shown in the catalogs as being nicely detailed.

The Ayers Scale Model company existed until mid-1958 (last MR ad - September 1956), when Tom Ayres then started designing the structures for E. Suydam & Company. The complete line of Ayers structures can be found as manufactured after this time by Ed of E. Suydam, even depicting the identical Ayers structures catalog photos now as E. Suydam -- with the same kit numbers.

Later, in the mid-1970's, with Leo Campbell consulting with Tom Ayres, the Campbell Scale Model company came out with the same four wooden bridges that Ayers Scale Model company had been producing back in the late 1940's and into a good part of the ' 50's; the No. 751 Timber Trestle (now called "Tall Timber Trestle"), the No. 761 Deck Timber Bridge ("50' Deck Timber Bridge"), the No. 762 Thru Timber Bridge ("70' Thru Timber Bridge") and the No. 763 Modern Truss Bridge ("125' Single Track Modern Truss Bridge"), using all the Ayers photos (and kit numbers) again here, in Walthers catalogs. These, in addition later, with the ten "Quincy" structures we've discussed, make for a good number of fine kits Tom Ayers contributed to the hobby.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 12/3/2017 4:19:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Richard and Ray, very interesting history. Thank you taking the time to post.
Jack Dziadul

Sanford, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26572	From: rhbale8	Date: 12/3/2017
Subject: Re Leo Campbell

Attention Ray Wetzel:

I have additional information on Leo Campbell. Please send me your direct email address.

Richard Bale

rhbale at aol dot com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26573	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/3/2017
Subject: Re: Re Leo Campbell

Richard,

Everyone's email address is included near the very bottom of the page they've posted with. Scrolling down, I (and everyone else) see your's as < Rhbale@... > . Addy's are no secret. As you'll notice, mine's < eriepacific@... >. If, by chance, these addresses don't go through, mine's eriepacific at aol dot com, but it can still be found intact at the bottom of this message. With this additional info on Leo Campbell though, I'd urge you to post a message on it to the group since stuff like this is right on topic. You of course may just send it to me instead, but if it's worthwhile, I'll probably forward it to this location (unless there's some reason otherwise).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 12/3/2017 3:54:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Attention Ray Wetzel:

I have additional information on Leo Campbell. Please send me your direct email address.

Richard Bale

rhbale at aol dot com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26574	From: peytonharvey82	Date: 12/8/2017
Subject: FS Walthers 4 Orange box aluminum passenger kits w/super details, tr

I have for sale Walthers 4 Orange box aluminum passenger kits that includes molded roofs, super details, Walthers interior kits, metal trucks, diaphragms, gold decals and couplers.

Item # 933-6682 80' coach paired windows, molded monitor roof, aluminum sides, and all parts are sealed in their original poly bags. The Walthers #933-665 HO scale interior 84 passenger coach is also mint in its original plastic container. Come with gold decals, Walthers #933-505 metal trucks, and diaphragms.

Item # 933-6642 75' combine with molded monitor roof, aluminum sides, and all parts are sealed in their original poly bags. The Walthers #933-644 HO scale interior 60 passenger coach is also mint in its original plastic container. Come with gold decals, Walthers #933-505 metal trucks, and diaphragms.

Item # 933-6618 80' Pullman (3DR, 6Compartments) with molded monitor roof, aluminum sides, and all parts are sealed in their original poly bags. The Walthers #933-732 HO scale interior 3 Draw R and 6 compartment is also mint in its original plastic container. Come with gold decals, Walthers #933-505 metal trucks, and diaphragms.

Item # 933-6615 80' diner car with molded monitor roof, aluminum sides, and all parts are sealed in their original poly bags. The Walthers #933-743 HO scale interior for diner and kitchen is also mint in its original plastic container. Come with gold decals, Walthers #933-505 metal trucks, and diaphragms.

This kit also comes with 2ea. 12" wooden air duct Walthers #944-436

Included are 2 packages of Kadee #16 couplers enough for all cars.

Needs to go to a good home. Asking $100.00 for all 4 plus priority shipping of $17.00 (almost 5#)

Personal check, Money Order, or I will send a PayPal invoice to the buyer.

Contact me off list if you need pictures or interested in buying them.

Regards, Peyton Harvey

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26575	From: denverrails	Date: 12/11/2017
Subject: Vintage models

I have a number of HO vintage models which I will be placing on eBay however I thought I would ask if there was any interest among the group in these. Pictures are displayed in

Vintage models

Updated on Jul 11 by denverrails

Only Me

Who can modify the contents of this album :

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26576	From: anypaddler	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I've been at a couple of local train shows this month, and one dealer there had a John English "Yard Bird" switcher for sale. I wasn't interested in buying it, but I did take a quick look. The box is original, the instruction sheet was there, and it appeared that all the parts were present. I don't think it sold, but that spoke to attendance at the shows. This past Sunday's show didn't draw well this year, nor did the larger show a week ago at the Empire State Plaza Convention Center; attendance was also noticeably down at Great NYS Train Fair in Syracuse last month. If the serious modelers don't show up in the first couple of hours, there aren't enough families coming in later to boost the numbers.

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26577	From: Brad Smith	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Attendance was also down at Milwaukee Trainfest this year. Of course, they have raised the price so much that people stop coming. This being said, our generation will probably be the end of many hobbies. Prices of collectible items are dropping. I attended a wooden boat show this past summer and heard the same complaint. Young people are not getting into hobbies. What Millennial can relate to a 57 Chevy or a Chris Craft boat? Same with clocks and watches. The prices are dropping.

The only bright spot is the Maker movement. But that is a small portion of the younger people.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26578	From: maryinvt2	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Happy Holidays to all,

I am searching for the tiny wire lug that Mantua/Tyco used at the end of the motor wire that attached to the coal tender on there steamers. I know there are a thousand different wire lugs out there but the hole is often too large and will allow a 2-56 screw to go right thru. Yes I know sometimes the complete wire w/lug is available on eBay and that they are still available from Bowser but who is willing to pay those ridiculous prices, not me, so I am wondering if anyone knows of a supplier for this item. There is also a completely flat ting lug that I'm am unable to find probably because I'm not using the proper terminology. Any help with this will be immensely appreciated.

Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26579	From: Brad Smith	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Re: Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

If it were me, I would make one out of thin brass.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Dec 12, 2017, at 11:39 AM, rh@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Happy Holidays to all,
I am searching for the tiny wire lug that Mantua/Tyco used at the end of the motor wire that attached to the coal tender on there steamers. I know there are a thousand different wire lugs out there but the hole is often too large and will allow a 2-56 screw to go right thru. Yes I know sometimes the complete wire w/lug is available on eBay and that they are still available from Bowser but who is willing to pay those ridiculous prices, not me, so I am wondering if anyone knows of a supplier for this item. There is also a completely flat ting lug that I'm am unable to find probably because I'm not using the proper terminology. Any help with this will be immensely appreciated.
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26580	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Re: Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Richard,

In trying to picture what you mean by the hole often being large enough to allow a 2-56 screw to "go right through." It appears you're saying that the head of the screw will go through also. If that's not what's being described then I'm not quite grasping your meaning, But, if that's the case, using a somewhat thin flat washer a bit wider than the screw head will eliminate that problem of the screw (including it's head) going right through the lug. In any case, flat washers have a lot of uses and may come in handy here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 12/12/2017 12:39:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Happy Holidays to all,

I am searching for the tiny wire lug that Mantua/Tyco used at the end of the motor wire that attached to the coal tender on there steamers. I know there are a thousand different wire lugs out there but the hole is often too large and will allow a 2-56 screw to go right thru. Yes I know sometimes the complete wire w/lug is available on eBay and that they are still available from Bowser but who is willing to pay those ridiculous prices, not me, so I am wondering if anyone knows of a supplier for this item. There is also a completely flat ting lug that I'm am unable to find probably because I'm not using the proper terminology. Any help with this will be immensely appreciated.

Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26581	From: Larry	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Re: Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Radio Shack (if you can find one nowadays) and automotive stores carry the crimp-on ends in many sizes and styles. A variety pack is fairly inexpensive.

Larry Miller III

From: "Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

If it were me, I would make one out of thin brass.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Dec 12, 2017, at 11:39 AM, rh@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Happy Holidays to all,
I am searching for the tiny wire lug that Mantua/Tyco used at the end of the motor wire that attached to the coal tender on there steamers. I know there are a thousand different wire lugs out there but the hole is often too large and will allow a 2-56 screw to go right thru. Yes I know sometimes the complete wire w/lug is available on eBay and that they are still available from Bowser but who is willing to pay those ridiculous prices, not me, so I am wondering if anyone knows of a supplier for this item. There is also a completely flat ting lug that I'm am unable to find probably because I'm not using the proper terminology. Any help with this will be immensely appreciated.
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26582	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Re: Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

In a message dated 12/12/2017 12:39:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Happy Holidays to all,

I am searching for the tiny wire lug that Mantua/Tyco used at the end of the motor wire that attached to the coal tender on there steamers. I know there are a thousand different wire lugs out there but the hole is often too large and will allow a 2-56 screw to go right thru. Yes I know sometimes the complete wire w/lug is available on eBay and that they are still available from Bowser but who is willing to pay those ridiculous prices, not me, so I am wondering if anyone knows of a supplier for this item. There is also a completely flat ting lug that I'm am unable to find probably because I'm not using the proper terminology. Any help with this will be immensely appreciated.

Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26583	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Re: Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Attachments :

Richard,

The item is a Ring terminal or Ring lug terminal. You would want a number 2 or 3. As has been suggested, an auto parts store or Radio Shack should have them. The other number is the wire gauge size range, 18-16 should work.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 12:39 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Happy Holidays to all,

Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26584	From: iimpster	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: bell tolling for yahoo... what about VintageHO ?

greetings fellow Vintagers. glad to see this list still alive, even as Yahoo! sinks beneath the waves.
read w/ interest and sympathy recent post re the sunset of train shows and the art in general.
lets face it guys, we are the tail end of a golden creature, and we shall not see it's like again.
( "minecraft VR railroading"? barf.)

anyway the goats still run here, even if thru a pile of dust.
cant buy this kind of fun! bbl

...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26585	From: iimpster	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: VintageHO & Marissa Mayer - ugh.

um. wondering why the Group home pic went the way of Marissa?

(as did my own Groups and the rest of the domain)

straw hats? wth??

folks, we been 'railroaded'.

for proof, just dig the moronic valley-gal stare on this fat and sassy wench and ponder the destruction she visited on Yahoo! et al.

got her start at google? - why am i not surprised!

better start saving your cherished files and photos locally, friends - something wikked this way comes.

(on the heels of the bambuser shutdown. meh.)

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-is-yahoo-dead-20151214-column.html?barc=0

buy them out to bury them in incompetence and downright hostility.

sound familiar?

so went all the greats - Athearn, Model Die Casting, Varney, even (Tyco) Mantua.

pardon me while i weep into my coffee a bit.

bbl

...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26586	From: wilmeaux	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Re: Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Rich,

How about soldering a wire loop of the proper size or fashioning a lug from thin sheet metal?

Bill A, in CA.

Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:39 AM

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100-pcs-22-18-AWG-110-SPADE-VINYL-QUICK-DISCONNECT-MALE-CONNECTOR-TERMINAL/400382468629?hash=item5d38a7a215:m:mjBVbJAiTQGDkgIk3InVQ7Q

Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Happy Holidays to all,

Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26587	From: trainliker	Date: 12/12/2017
Subject: Re: Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Attachments :

I think the “completely flat” lug your are looking for is usually called a “quick disconnect” connector. They come in male and female of various sizes.

.110 is a pretty small one. (Happens to be the size used on O gauge Lionel Fastrak incidentally). If, on eBay, you search for “.110 terminal lug male”, you will see some various connector terminals. Here’s some insulated ones on eBay for example:

Auto parts stores usually have something. Although it may tend toward the larger sizes. Some are shown in the top row at this O-Reilly’s page:

https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/lighting---electrical-16777/wire-terminals-19379?q=terminal

You can go to an electronics parts vendor like Digi-Key. Here is their page when searching for quick disconnect terminals. There are 5,811 choices showing. So you would probably want to narrow that down a bit with the filters provided.

https://www.digikey.com/products/en/connectors-interconnects/terminals-quick-connects-quick-disconnect-connectors/392?k=male%20quick%20disconnect

But for just one? I’d probably take the advice below to make it out of sheet metal. Although I might start with a piece of brass bar stock of some suitable size, drill a hole in it, cut to length, and then file as necessary if I wanted it roundish or something.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: 'wilmeaux' wilmeaux@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:47 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Rich,

How about soldering a wire loop of the proper size or fashioning a lug from thin sheet metal?

Bill A, in CA.

Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:39 AM

https://www.trainz.com/pages/guide-to-lionels-refrigerator-cars

Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

Happy Holidays to all,

Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26588	From: trainliker	Date: 12/13/2017
Subject: Metal drop bottom doors for Detail Associates composite gondolas

I don’t know if the Detail Associates composite drop bottom gondola kits are vintage enough, but if not, getting close.

I hear that somebody made metal replacement drop doors to replace the kit’s plastic doors to add weight.

Anybody heard of this and, if so, know where to get them?

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26589	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 12/13/2017
Subject: Re: Tyco/Mantua motor wire lug for steamers

If he is trying to restore to original, he needs to be looking at
"solder lug". These have two holes, one for the screw and one for the
wire., Can be pear shaped. Searching ebay turns up several of the
correct style, you would have to check the dimensions. these are all
none crimp items.
Howard Garner

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26590	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/13/2017
Subject: Re: Metal drop bottom doors for Detail Associates composite gondo...

Sorry, the Detail Associates 40' General Service (came as having Composite Sides as Catalog # 200 or as having Steel Sides as Catalog # 220) Gondola with drop doors weren't available much earlier than 1991 and is a far cry from being considered "vintage" at all. I'd have to say that this is off-topic here and deserves no mention, when Ulrich's similar die-cast 40' General Service gondolas were released in 1952 and is deservedly considered vintage. While I'm sure many of us here have Ulrich gondolas of this style, I doubt very many of us have Detail Associates gondolas. I'd venture to guess that some members where not even aware of Detail Associates having produced General Service gondolas or any freight car kits at all. I certainly wasn't, and only learned of them after looking them up in my Walthers catalogs of those years (noting too, these cars are also in Walthers 1992 catalog) after reading the opening post on this question.

While Detail Associates products first became available in Walthers catalogs around 1979, this company then only offered a small line of styrene diesel detail parts and one structure -- a Branch Line Roundhouse (prototype being the narrow gauge Pacific Coast Railway's structure at San Luis Obispo, CA) -- first offered that year. Still, even these products might be far fetched to be called vintage. The HOSeeker site may show something on Detail Associates being in Walthers 1978 catalog (I haven't checked it), while I don't have one for that year; there's no mention of them in Walthers 1977.

This is not to say that this manufacturer's gondolas (also produced was a 40' Composite Side General Service Sugar Beet Gondola, new for 1991 - catalog #'s 201 & 202) do not deserve a place on contemporary layouts of today, especially because they're made of a much lighter material (plastic) than Ulrich's were, with more of them being able to be included in a train for this reason. Too, their trucks were of plastic which may need changing out to at least have metal wheelsets. Metal replacement drop doors for this car would never the less be a valuable addition, although I have little knowledge of Detail Associates at all owing to them not being considered by myself as being vintage. While this question has come up, I'd like to know also if such replacement doors have been produced by some manufacturer, despite whether or not the car they'd be intended for is vintage.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 12/13/2017 8:56:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don’t know if the Detail Associates composite drop bottom gondola kits are vintage enough, but if not, getting close.

I hear that somebody made metal replacement drop doors to replace the kit’s plastic doors to add weight.

Anybody heard of this and, if so, know where to get them?

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26591	From: trainliker	Date: 12/14/2017
Subject: Re: Metal drop bottom doors for Detail Associates composite gondo...

Attachments :

I don’t necessarily disagree with your assessment this is not “vintage”. Although that seems to be a blurry term at best.

The “HO Collector” magazine web site says they cover “older, vintage, and classic model trains”. So I’m left wondering the definitions of “older” and “vintage” and “classic” are and how they are distinguished from each other. I suppose I could start “olderHO” and “classicHO” Yahoo groups and see who shows up?

But curiously they don’t seem to have any cut off date at all on some articles. A “Blue Box-Era Diesel Timeline” article discusses diesels coming out as late as 1991, 1995, 1999, and 2003. Of course, that entire time frame is necessary to discuss all the “blue box” diesels I guess. Their article “Railbox Models Part 2” takes us all the way to 2013 and 2016.

At least the gondolas are from about a generation ago.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 11:15 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Metal drop bottom doors for Detail Associates composite gondo...

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 12/13/2017 8:56:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don’t know if the Detail Associates composite drop bottom gondola kits are vintage enough, but if not, getting close.
I hear that somebody made metal replacement drop doors to replace the kit’s plastic doors to add weight.
Anybody heard of this and, if so, know where to get them?
Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26592	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/14/2017
Subject: Re: Metal drop bottom doors for Detail Associates composite gondo...

Attachments :

I've had many discussions with the publisher of "HO Collector" and his business partner in the months just preceding their starting up, and prior to them coming out with the first issue of the magazine. They, themselves, admitted that they intended on having no definitive time frame in covering topics from Varney through Walthers Proto II and then some. While they put out an interesting magazine, they're not ones to turn to, to establish time lines between different eras of H0 manufacturing. I think Don Dellman confined "vintage" best a few years ago the second time we had a somewhat lengthy discussion on this term's meaning. I don't recall it all, and some of it had to do with the material used and also the craftsman type of construction that accompanied many of the kits of that era. These considerations excluded many manufacturers from being vintage comparatively early, while including others later than what we would be accustomed to assume as being vintage.

Some members here even thought we should consider Ye Old Huff 'n Puff as a vintage manufacturer despite them coming onto the scene in the 1980's. This was because of the craftsman type of construction many of their (copied) kits offered, as resurrections from another time, although I only see them as they are; copies of long gone by kits by earlier manufacturers. Because of the definitions to be included in being considered as vintage, some manufacturers products offered almost as late as the early 1980's could be defined as vintage, as Don put it, even though we generally think of the late 1960's as being the cut off time (with some manufacturers going into the 1970's). If you need a refresher, I'm sure Don would be glad to briefly cover this once more as it has been a while since the subject had been brought up. Certainly, 1991 would not be considered as "vintage" however, as I understand it. Modelers (HO SC&H SIG - NMRA) were discussing "vintage" RR models even before 1991, of the manufacturers who helped establish this scale hobby. That many more years have passed since then, this still does not extend vintage to cover these more recent years because of the passage of more time.

Getting back to the Detail Associates drop bottom gondola and the doors in question, since Ulrich's cast metal drop doors came separate from the floor pan, and since they may well be near the same scale size as the Detail Associates plastic drop doors, I might suggest giving them a try. While it's doubtful that one could find a set of Ulrich drop doors by themselves, the complete Ulrich General Service gondolas can occasionally be found very reasonably, especially if it's a junker. Probably so reasonably that the price may be the same (or less) as that for a set of these metal drop doors you're asking about from a manufacturer of today. They may require some filing or Dremel work to get them to the exact size you need; this I don't know.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 12/14/2017 12:04:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don’t necessarily disagree with your assessment this is not “vintage”. Although that seems to be a blurry term at best.

The “HO Collector” magazine web site says they cover “older, vintage, and classic model trains”. So I’m left wondering the definitions of “older” and “vintage” and “classic” are and how they are distinguished from each other. I suppose I could start “olderHO” and “classicHO” Yahoo groups and see who shows up?

But curiously they don’t seem to have any cut off date at all on some articles. A “Blue Box-Era Diesel Timeline” article discusses diesels coming out as late as 1991, 1995, 1999, and 2003. Of course, that entire time frame is necessary to discuss all the “blue box” diesels I guess. Their article “Railbox Models Part 2” takes us all the way to 2013 and 2016.

At least the gondolas are from about a generation ago.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 11:15 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Metal drop bottom doors for Detail Associates composite gondo...

Sorry, the Detail Associates 40' General Service (came as having Composite Sides as Catalog # 200 or as having Steel Sides as Catalog # 220) Gondola with drop doors weren't available much earlier than 1991 and is a far cry from being considered "vintage" at all. I'd have to say that this is off-topic here and deserves no mention, when Ulrich's similar die-cast 40' General Service gondolas were released in 1952 and is deservedly considered vintage. While I'm sure many of us here have Ulrich gondolas of this style, I doubt very many of us have Detail Associates gondolas. I'd venture to guess that some members where not even aware of Detail Associates having produced General Service gondolas or any freight car kits at all. I certainly wasn't, and only learned of them after looking them up in my Walthers catalogs of those years (noting too, these cars are also in Walthers 1992 catalog) after reading the opening post on this question.

While Detail Associates products first became available in Walthers catalogs around 1979, this company then only offered a small line of styrene diesel detail parts and one structure -- a Branch Line Roundhouse (prototype being the narrow gauge Pacific Coast Railway's structure at San Luis Obispo, CA) -- first offered that year. Still, even these products might be far fetched to be called vintage. The HOSeeker site may show something on Detail Associates being in Walthers 1978 catalog (I haven't checked it), while I don't have one for that year; there's no mention of them in Walthers 1977.

This is not to say that this manufacturer's gondolas (also produced was a 40' Composite Side General Service Sugar Beet Gondola, new for 1991 - catalog #'s 201 & 202) do not deserve a place on contemporary layouts of today, especially because they're made of a much lighter material (plastic) than Ulrich's were, with more of them being able to be included in a train for this reason. Too, their trucks were of plastic which may need changing out to at least have metal wheelsets. Metal replacement drop doors for this car would never the less be a valuable addition, although I have little knowledge of Detail Associates at all owing to them not being considered by myself as being vintage. While this question has come up, I'd like to know also if such replacement doors have been produced by some manufacturer, despite whether or not the car they'd be intended for is vintage.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 12/13/2017 8:56:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don’t know if the Detail Associates composite drop bottom gondola kits are vintage enough, but if not, getting close.

I hear that somebody made metal replacement drop doors to replace the kit’s plastic doors to add weight.

Anybody heard of this and, if so, know where to get them?

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26593	From: William Murray	Date: 12/15/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

You are right. The MRR hobby dies with us, accelerated by the big price rises some years back that eliminated the entry level. Today's youth is obsessed with taking selfies and being totally self absorbed.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:33 AM, "Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The only bright spot is the Maker movement. But that is a small portion of the younger people.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26594	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 12/15/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Sell now. Or have a special coffin built "pre-need" with shelves around the sides.

Seriously, I don't think the price of stuff is the barrier. A modern RTR high quality DCC locomotive costs the same (in 2017 dollars) as a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit did 70 years ago.

Kids will express their creativity (if they are wired that way) with whatever you put in front of them. Done at age 12-13 especially it makes a big and permanent imprint in the young mind. If that thing in front of them is a bright touch screen with all kinds of neat stuff hiding inside that's what will hook them. If their "cool" friends share similar attractive influences the hook sinks a lot deeper. Further still if parents say "no".

Ed Weldon

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:52 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"William Murray" william.murray@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26595	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see one major flaw in your explanation comparing 2017 dollars with those dollars needed to purchase a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit from years past, as the reason why kids today shouldn't need to get into model railroading. Years ago (1950's), I was able to buy a Varney (or Penn Line, Mantua, etc.) steam engine kit with the money I saved up for delivering newspapers in not very much time. Do you really think the a kid today could do that? Moving up into the 1970's, Mantua steam locomotives -- large, modern steam; Pacific and Mikados -- could be bought on sale for no more than $15. Just with saving up their allowance could get them a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit, or an assembled & painted second generation diesel; impossible to do today. With the average DCC engine today costing well, over $200, not only can't kids buy one today, but adults find it quite difficult to do as that's still a large chunck of money as compared to the average wage -- so much more so than it was in either 1950 or 1970. They'd need their parents to buy such an item for them today, which some may understandably baulk at. The "2017 dollars" don't equate to 1950's dollars when comparing the cost of these engines against the wages of both eras.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 12/16/2017 1:57:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Sell now. Or have a special coffin built "pre-need" with shelves around the sides.

Seriously, I don't think the price of stuff is the barrier. A modern RTR high quality DCC locomotive costs the same (in 2017 dollars) as a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit did 70 years ago.

Kids will express their creativity (if they are wired that way) with whatever you put in front of them. Done at age 12-13 especially it makes a big and permanent imprint in the young mind. If that thing in front of them is a bright touch screen with all kinds of neat stuff hiding inside that's what will hook them. If their "cool" friends share similar attractive influences the hook sinks a lot deeper. Further still if parents say "no".
Ed Weldon

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:52 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"William Murray" william.murray@...

You are right. The MRR hobby dies with us, accelerated by the big price rises some years back that eliminated the entry level. Today's youth is obsessed with taking selfies and being totally self absorbed.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26596	From: david vartanoff	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3923

I dissent. Not known for optimism, I will note that I have been giving HO scale stuff to youngsters. In some cases it seems to take. Its pretty much like any onther "cult"--you have to recruit.

On 12/16/2017 01:51 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

The MRR hobby dies with us

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26597	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

On 12/16/2017 4:04 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

>
>
> I see one major flaw in your explanation comparing 2017 dollars with
> those dollars needed to purchase a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit
> from years past, as the reason why kids today shouldn't need to get into
> model railroading. Years ago (1950's), I was able to buy a Varney (or
> Penn Line, Mantua, etc.) steam engine kit with the money I saved up for
> delivering newspapers in not very much time. Do you really think the a
> kid today could do that? Moving up into the 1970's, Mantua steam
> locomotives -- large, modern steam; Pacific and Mikados -- could be
> bought on sale for no more than $15. Just with saving up their
> allowance could get them a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit, or an
> assembled & painted second generation diesel; impossible to do today.
> With the average DCC engine today costing well, over $200, not only
> can't kids buy one today, but adults find it quite difficult to do as
> that's still a large chunck of money as compared to the average wage --
> so much more so than it was in either 1950 or 1970. They'd need their
> parents to buy such an item for them today, which some may
> understandably baulk at. The "2017 dollars" don't equate to 1950's
> dollars when comparing the cost of these engines against the wages of
> both eras.

Wages have been stagnant for some time while the price of things has
continued to rise, albeit more slowly since the financial crash of a
decade ago.
When I've been laid off then found a new job it has always been at a
lower rate than what I had been receiving after years on the previous
job, so the long climb back up the wage ladder has had to be
accomplished over and over again. Meanwhile prices rise. It's not like
in my father's day where he worked at the same company for over 35 years
and got a nice retirement package. The longest I've been able stay at
one company during my working life was 9.5 years.
I think there's an available market for something like the blue box
kits, for casual modelers that aren't interested in absolute fidelity to
prototype, with every little grab iron and rivet replicated in perfect
detail, or who are on a tight budget and find the Kadee and Tangent
models unaffordable. Not everyone can afford an FSM kit either, but a JV
Models kit might be doable.

--

Rick Jones

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear
bright until you hear them speak.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26598	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

The hobby can be affordable, or not, depending on your desire for detail and/or DCC operation. Many of us still use DC and acquire our rolling stock from train shows, online, or other local outlets. Many of us still use the "toy" couplers and leave the plastic wheels on. We're having fun, and if the kids want to "play trains" with me, I don't cringe since almost everything is replaceable. I can even afford to give a kid some stuff to get him started on his own layout. I do, of course, point out that there are other aspects of the hobby that may catch her fancy which would cost real money.

But we seem to be getting off topic. Sorry.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26599	From: trainliker	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I think there are enough Athearn blue box kits (and many other things) available on eBay, unbuilt, to perhaps satisfy any demand ten times over. And there are probably many times that still squirreled away in closets waiting to appear on eBay or train shows.

Currently, there are 768 listings for “athearn blue box kit” which seem to be unassembled kits mostly.

Currently, there are 1,666 listings for “athearn blue box” (still unassembled kits or otherwise assembled)

Plenty of other low cost kits, like Roundhouse products.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 8:59 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

On 12/16/2017 4:04 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

>
>
> I see one major flaw in your explanation comparing 2017 dollars with
> those dollars needed to purchase a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit
> from years past, as the reason why kids today shouldn't need to get into
> model railroading. Years ago (1950's), I was able to buy a Varney (or
> Penn Line, Mantua, etc.) steam engine kit with the money I saved up for
> delivering newspapers in not very much time. Do you really think the a
> kid today could do that? Moving up into the 1970's, Mantua steam
> locomotives -- large, modern steam; Pacific and Mikados -- could be
> bought on sale for no more than $15. Just with saving up their
> allowance could get them a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit, or an
> assembled & painted second generation diesel; impossible to do today.
> With the average DCC engine today costing well, over $200, not only
> can't kids buy one today, but adults find it quite difficult to do as
> that's still a large chunck of money as compared to the average wage --
> so much more so than it was in either 1950 or 1970. They'd need their
> parents to buy such an item for them today, which some may
> understandably baulk at. The "2017 dollars" don't equate to 1950's
> dollars when comparing the cost of these engines against the wages of
> both eras.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26600	From: Brad Smith	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Great. All you need are young buyers.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Dec 16, 2017, at 7:09 PM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I think there are enough Athearn blue box kits (and many other things) available on eBay, unbuilt, to perhaps satisfy any demand ten times over. And there are probably many times that still squirreled away in closets waiting to appear on eBay or train shows.

Currently, there are 768 listings for “athearn blue box kit” which seem to be unassembled kits mostly.

Currently, there are 1,666 listings for “athearn blue box” (still unassembled kits or otherwise assembled)

Plenty of other low cost kits, like Roundhouse products.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 8:59 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

On 12/16/2017 4:04 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>
>
> I see one major flaw in your explanation comparing 2017 dollars with
> those dollars needed to purchase a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit
> from years past, as the reason why kids today shouldn't need to get into
> model railroading. Years ago (1950's), I was able to buy a Varney (or
> Penn Line, Mantua, etc.) steam engine kit with the money I saved up for
> delivering newspapers in not very much time. Do you really think the a
> kid today could do that? Moving up into the 1970's, Mantua steam
> locomotives -- large, modern steam; Pacific and Mikados -- could be
> bought on sale for no more than $15. Just with saving up their
> allowance could get them a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit, or an
> assembled & painted second generation diesel; impossible to do today.
> With the average DCC engine today costing well, over $200, not only
> can't kids buy one today, but adults find it quite difficult to do as
> that's still a large chunck of money as compared to the average wage --
> so much more so than it was in either 1950 or 1970. They'd need their
> parents to buy such an item for them today, which some may
> understandably baulk at. The "2017 dollars" don't equate to 1950's
> dollars when comparing the cost of these engines against the wages of
> both eras.

Wages have been stagnant for some time while the price of things has
continued to rise, albeit more slowly since the financial crash of a
decade ago.
When I've been laid off then found a new job it has always been at a
lower rate than what I had been receiving after years on the previous
job, so the long climb back up the wage ladder has had to be
accomplished over and over again. Meanwhile prices rise. It's not like
in my father's day where he worked at the same company for over 35 years
and got a nice retirement package. The longest I've been able stay at
one company during my working life was 9.5 years.
I think there's an available market for something like the blue box
kits, for casual modelers that aren't interested in absolute fidelity to
prototype, with every little grab iron and rivet replicated in perfect
detail, or who are on a tight budget and find the Kadee and Tangent
models unaffordable. Not everyone can afford an FSM kit either, but a JV
Models kit might be doable.

--

Rick Jones

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear
bright until you hear them speak.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26601	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Attachments :

Hello vintage HO group. I have a Lionel Trains box box with " NO. 10143" and "9877" stamped onto two sides of the box. "Lionel Trains" in large black bold letters is stamped on just one side of the box. Also stamped is "Manufactured and Guaranteed By the Lionel Corporation. New York, N. Y. It is approximately 11 by 10 inches at the sides and 6 inches tall. It is a heavy corrugated box. Any idea what it my be for? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks for the help, Dominic

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26602	From: trainliker	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Attachments :

A little guession, but… 9877 was a Gerber Baby Food box car. (Complete number is 6-9877 but many leave off the “6”). It is a “modern era” Lionel car. The cardboard box looks sort of modern era to me. A wild guess is that it was for a dealer pack of four or six of the cars or something.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 6:41 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26603	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Hey Chuck, thanks for your input. Would the Gerber car be an HO item?

Dom

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 10:39 PM, "trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 6:41 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26604	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Chuck, I just looked and see it is the O gauge car and not HO.

Dom

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 10:39 PM, "trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 6:41 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26605	From: trainliker	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Attachments :

No. It is for O gauge 3-rail. 1979/1980 vintage. The length of the box was something like the 10” or 11” you mentioned.

Here is a link to a lot of history on Lionel refrigerator cars, including the 9877.

I don’t think I have any of this sort of reefer in a box, but a very similar size box car I do have in the same era box has the box dimensions of about 11 3/8 x 4 3/8 x 2 1/2 inches.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 7:52 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Hey Chuck, thanks for your input. Would the Gerber car be an HO item?

Dom

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 10:39 PM, "trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 6:41 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26606	From: Joseph Mitchell	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Hi Dominic:

found this site. might be what you want.

http://www.lionelho.com/pictures/s10143.html

Joe mitchell

On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:40 PM, 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hello vintage HO group. I have a Lionel Trains box box with " NO. 10143" and "9877" stamped onto two sides of the box. "Lionel Trains" in large black bold letters is stamped on just one side of the box. Also stamped is "Manufactured and Guaranteed By the Lionel Corporation. New York, N. Y. It is approximately 11 by 10 inches at the sides and 6 inches tall. It is a heavy corrugated box. Any idea what it my be for? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks for the help, Dominic

<2017-12-16 001.JPG>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26607	From: Nita and Jerry Jenkins	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Prices going down, you say? Please send links to these now inexpensive locos you speak of.

I understand the disdain for the current progressive, self-absorbed culture...however the death knell of this hobby has been rung so many years it's looking like the Liberty Bell.

From: "Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 12:57 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Sell now. Or have a special coffin built "pre-need" with shelves around the sides.

Seriously, I don't think the price of stuff is the barrier. A modern RTR high quality DCC locomotive costs the same (in 2017 dollars) as a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit did 70 years ago.

Ed Weldon

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:52 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"William Murray" william.murray@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26608	From: trainliker	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Attachments :

Wow, that looks definitive and I was apparently wrong. It is very unusual for Lionel to have any sort of overlap on numbering.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Joseph Mitchell nycrrmitch36@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Hi Dominic:

found this site. might be what you want.

http://www.lionelho.com/pictures/s10143.html

Joe mitchell

On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:40 PM, 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hello vintage HO group. I have a Lionel Trains box box with " NO. 10143" and "9877" stamped onto two sides of the box. "Lionel Trains" in large black bold letters is stamped on just one side of the box. Also stamped is "Manufactured and Guaranteed By the Lionel Corporation. New York, N. Y. It is approximately 11 by 10 inches at the sides and 6 inches tall. It is a heavy corrugated box. Any idea what it my be for? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks for the help, Dominic

<2017-12-16 001.JPG>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26609	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 12/16/2017
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3923

Sorry guys. I shouldn't have brought up the issue of economics.
Economics is not a science; it's a religion and discussions about such
are better kept away from constructive forum discussions.

There is another factor in the death of our model train hobby. We as a
culture are not interacting with people in our everyday life in a manner
that exposes them to our own worlds of interest. This is especially true
of our relationships with kids in the age range of 8-18 yrs. Cultural
norms in an age when sad stories of the kind of child abuse that has
always happened have virtually prohibited any of us with interacting in
any way with kids in our everyday life. There are many other situations
in modern life where we avoid getting to know each other or are simply
submerged in our own activity to the exclusion of people around us. If
you are working ask yourself how many coworkers know you are a model
railroader. If you are retired how many people in your life know about
your hobby?

Another thought worth digging into. Model railroading seems to be a
growing hobby in Europe, notably Germany. What are they doing that we
in the USA aren't? What's different?

I have some other thoughts on this but that's for later. Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26610	From: bcerestrains	Date: 12/17/2017
Subject: Re: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Hi Dominic:

Although Joe has linked to a set sold from my website a number of years back I can add a few more points of interest on the set.
- The early 1964 set was offered by Sears where the 9877 number is their catalog number while the 10143 number is the internal Lionel number.
- The uncatalogued set was part of a series of sets that Lionel made for Sears in an attempt to reduce their inventory during the slowdown of the Lionel business at the time. There were at least 13 different sets (10137 through 10149) made. The 10143 is probably the most common.
- The contents of this particular set can vary significantly as many substitutions were allowed. I have the set with a NP GP9 and another with a SF GP9.
- Most or all of the contents were individually boxed but the how the boxes were marked can be quite unique to the era. Many of the boxes will have their endflaps relabeled with a white sticker but without any printing.

Hope this helps you out.

Bruce

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26611	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 12/17/2017
Subject: Re: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Good morning everyone, Bruce, Joe and Chuck. I have a couple of those paper pieces also with this set box. So, it is an HO set and uncatalogued at that! I'm guessing the cars are somewhat common and it is the box that makes it special? I'm happily surprised. Thanks again for your help everyone.

Dominic

On Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:11 AM, "bceres@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26612	From: Dale Smith	Date: 12/17/2017
Subject: Re: Possible Lionel HO set box? Or...

Dual numbering on Sears sets was also common on the Gilbert HO sets they offered. In the following example, the set has a 9000 series number (9971), which fits with the Lionel set being discussed, preceded by a "49-", possibly a department code.

Dale Smith

On 12/17/2017 1:11 AM, bceres@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Hi Dominic:

Although Joe has linked to a set sold from my website a number of years back I can add a few more points of interest on the set.
- The early 1964 set was offered by Sears where the 9877 number is their catalog number while the 10143 number is the internal Lionel number.
- The uncatalogued set was part of a series of sets that Lionel made for Sears in an attempt to reduce their inventory during the slowdown of the Lionel business at the time. There were at least 13 different sets (10137 through 10149) made. The 10143 is probably the most common.
- The contents of this particular set can vary significantly as many substitutions were allowed. I have the set with a NP GP9 and another with a SF GP9.
- Most or all of the contents were individually boxed but the how the boxes were marked can be quite unique to the era. Many of the boxes will have their endflaps relabeled with a white sticker but without any printing.

Hope this helps you out.

Bruce

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26613	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 1/5/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I have sold on eBay steadily for the past ~15 years now. Prices have continuously dropped over the past 10 years, since the 2008 market crash. My average buyer IS retired. There are some younger buyers, but very few are buying the vintage locomotives. In 2008, an average C5-C6 Mantua 1948-52 brass and diecast Reading Pacific was selling for $200-250+. Most C7 models fetched $400+/- quite regularly.

Today an average C5-C6 Mantua 1948-52 brass and diecast Reading Pacific was selling for $120-150+/-. I have sold one C7 for $300 in the last five years. Most sell for $150-180 or less. Those are just one example of one of the Mantua locomotives. Varney locomotives are pretty much the same way. The bottom has pretty much fallen out on the Joe. A full valve gear model typically fetched $150-$180. You are lucky to sell on for $75 now.

I do not see the prices getting any better (for sellers or enthusiasts thinking they have a fortune tied up in their collection). In fact, I expect between 10 and 15 years from the now the bottom will fall out completely for such older models. I will likely still be buying then since by then I will just be entering into my retirement age.

But that is just my opinion, based on what I have sold and purchsed.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "Nita and Jerry Jenkins jnj7707@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Prices going down, you say? Please send links to these now inexpensive locos you speak of.

I understand the disdain for the current progressive, self-absorbed culture...however the death knell of this hobby has been rung so many years it's looking like the Liberty Bell.

Sell now. Or have a special coffin built "pre-need" with shelves around the sides.

Seriously, I don't think the price of stuff is the barrier. A modern RTR high quality DCC locomotive costs the same (in 2017 dollars) as a "die cast you assemble and paint" kit did 70 years ago.

Ed Weldon

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:52 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"William Murray" william.murray@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26614	From: Brad Smith	Date: 1/5/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26615	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/5/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26616	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I predict that within 3 years we will have reliable and cheap 3d scanners and the really nice liquid resin printers that today are $500 will be large enough to handle a HO Northern body as well as the rest of the needed non-mechanical parts for about the same price.

The collections will be great pieces, while the likely more common fragments and wrecks of partial models will be our 'patterns' to be able to have small fleets of our favorite models that we always wanted to have, but just aren't around enough in decent numbers to have the models we'd like to operate.

As you might see, I'm not very worried about having a high valued collection as much as wishing for a nice operating 'fleet'.

Dang ... I want that scanner !!!

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:55 PM, Sean Naylor a69mustang4me@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I do not see the prices getting any better (for sellers or enthusiasts thinking they have a fortune tied up in their collection). In fact, I expect between 10 and 15 years from the now the bottom will fall out completely for such older models. I will likely still be buying then since by then I will just be entering into my retirement age.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26617	From: luvprr2003	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Well, each to his own I say. I'm almost 81 and am still building vintage kits because I love it and am good at it (and can afford the paint, tools, and various additional parts). My hope is that years from now my grand kids (and others?) will say, "Look at this 1939 (etc.) piece. Those were the days when it took real skill to build one of these--and real wood? Wow!" And I even enjoy running my cheap 1955 Hobbyline plastic diesel set with the funky couplers. All of this stuff has great nostalgic meaning for me, and the grand kids do like to run Grand Dad's trains when they come to visit. The 3 of them will each inherit a personalized passenger (business) car with their first and middle names decaled on the sides. I really don't give a damn what all this rare stuff is worth on the open market presently and will care even less when I "take the last train out." See you guys in the funny papers. . . .

Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I predict that within 3 years we will have reliable and cheap 3d scanners and the really nice liquid resin printers that today are $500 will be large enough to handle a HO Northern body as well as the rest of the needed non-mechanical parts for about the same price.

The collections will be great pieces, while the likely more common fragments and wrecks of partial models will be our 'patterns' to be able to have small fleets of our favorite models that we always wanted to have, but just aren't around enough in decent numbers to have the models we'd like to operate.

As you might see, I'm not very worried about having a high valued collection as much as wishing for a nice operating 'fleet'.

Dang ... I want that scanner !!!

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:55 PM, Sean Naylor a69mustang4me@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I do not see the prices getting any better (for sellers or enthusiasts thinking they have a fortune tied up in their collection). In fact, I expect between 10 and 15 years from the now the bottom will fall out completely for such older models.& nbsp; I will likely still be buying then since by then I will just be entering into my retirement age.

In a message dated 1/6/2018 4:48:46 AM Easter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26618	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Bob, I always enjoy reading your input. I doubt very many of us are into vintage trains for their value. While I realize that this group's purpose is not to collect these H0 models but to operate them, still -- I enjoy collecting them as much as I do operating them. After all, we can't operate them without accumulating them, and while we're accumulating them (and needing to know what they are) it would seem to enhance their appreciation by us if we made a point to "collect" them -- as buying towards completing collections of what these various manufacturers made. Don't need to collect every H0 manufacturer, even though some of us may, but acquiring and completing a manufacturer's line gives a certain sense of satisfaction.

I would only like to add that, while Sol Kramer did continue the Varney name, which extended the period of when we were able to purchase this manufacturing line, he didn't always hold to the design or material standards that Gordon Varney did. As such, I find the original (Gordon Varney - manufactured) Varney Yard Switcher to be equally as good as Irv Athearn's SW-7, if not better. Nothing against Athearn's SW-7 as it was fine, but Gordon Varney made excellent models. On the other hand, and while I don't like to discredit Varney products, I'm sorry to say that I wouldn't give 2 cents for a Sol Kramer - manufactured Varney Yard Switcher, especially the ones after 1960 when Kramer used the Japanese KM-1 motor with the plastic spur gear. The quality of materials is just not there any longer when Kramer produced the Varney Yard Switcher from 1960, on. The same seems to hold true when Kramer produced the F Units (F-3's and F-7's) having the same motor & spur gear, as compared the Gordon Varney's metal F-3's, as I've experience them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/6/2018 1:43:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26619	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Folks... We are all train nuts od one degree or another. We build them because we love them and they do much for us... It is not toys as such but miniature trains and it is the trains that register so deeply with us. I was born loving trains. My first memory is of a railroad steam crane with a clamshell bucket working on the right of way almost in front of the house where I spent most of my young life. In all of my growing years from infancy to age 16, I lived close to the tracks of the N&W... First a 1/4 mile away... Then 50 yards away... Lastly just 30 yards away. I slept to the tune of freight and coal trains being pulled and pushed by 2-8-8-2s on the front and rear blasting past my home at full throttle on a 60 mile upgrade, locals pulled by 2-6-6-2s and 4 daily passenger trains pulled by streamlined 4-8-2s. I owned scads of toy trains but did not find HO until I married, left my old home and moved to a city apartment... Then I found the early Mantua loco kits and the Hobbyline plastic Berkshire kits which I learned to power... And the love kept growing and is still growing today in spite of extreme eye problems. Then I spent much of my adult life custom building, painting and repairing all scales and types of trains, scale and toy. Even now I have 4 Js and numerous others awaiting attention. I put time, money, effort and skill into them and they give learning, enjoyment and satisfaction back to me. My dad was a railroad MOW foreman. I wanted to be a locomotive engineer but they were laying off employees and not hiring.

I went into civil engineering and then structural engineering but always had my trains close at hand. They did far more for me than they ever cost me and it all continues today!

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU AND OTHER TRAIN AQUAINTANCES THAT HAVE BEEN THERE MOST OF MY LIFE... HAPPY RAILROADING!

Don in VA.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 1/6/2018 10:31 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob, I always enjoy reading your input. I doubt very many of us are into vintage trains for their value. While I realize that this group's purpose is not to collect these H0 models but to operate them, still -- I enjoy collecting them as much as I do operating them. After all, we can't operate them without accumulating them, and while we're accumulating them (and needing to know what they are) it would seem to enhance their appreciation by us if we made a point to "collect" them -- as buying towards completing collections of what these various manufacturers made. Don't need to collect every H0 manufacturer, even though some of us may, but acquiring and completing a manufacturer's line gives a certain sense of satisfaction.

I would only like to add that, while Sol Kramer did continue the Varney name, which extended the period of when we were able to purchase this manufacturing line, he didn't always hold to the design or material standards that Gordon Varney did. As such, I find the original (Gordon Varney - manufactured) Varney Yard Switcher to be equally as good as Irv Athearn's SW-7, if not better. Nothing against Athearn's SW-7 as it was fine, but Gordon Varney made excellent models. On the other hand, and while I don't like to discredit Varney products, I'm sorry to say that I wouldn't give 2 cents for a Sol Kramer - manufactured Varney Yard Switcher, especially the ones after 1960 when Kramer used the Japanese KM-1 motor with the plastic spur gear. The quality of materials is just not there any longer when Kramer produced the Varney Yard Switcher from 1960, on. The same seems to hold true when Kramer produced the F Units (F-3's and F-7's) having the same motor & spur gear, as compared the Gordon Varney's metal F-3's, as I've experience them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/6/2018 1:43:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26620	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Well, the old Varney switcher works REALLY well with a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. 😁

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 1:13 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26621	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Ray,

I remember the Varney diesels from about the mid 50's. I had a set of Tenshodo FTs I brought home from Korea in 1954. The Varney drives seemed to be very similar to the Tenshodo drive. But the Varney white metal was much better. By the mid 60's the Tenshodo white metal had turned to dust.

When I look at my metal Varney F-3s they don't have the level of detail of Athearn's F-7s. But I don't care. I can't see the detail when they are running.

What I look for is mid 50's Varney freight car kits. The ones with brass sides. I have some the wood parts and some that have plastic parts.

Christmas 1955 I was given a Varney PFE reefer that had the brass sides and plastic floor and roof. I liked that vintage.

But I don't like any of the later all plastic Varney cars. They were TOY TRAIN stuff.

On eBay you can still find 1950's vintage unbuilt kits like Ulrich and Silver Streak. You can build them the way we did in the 60's.

And today's train people don't seem to have any interest in these kits. They are not good enough for today's interests. But they are just fine for my interests.

You can even find the cardboard sides and make your own using Northeastern wood.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 7:31 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Bob, I always enjoy reading your input. I doubt very many of us are into vintage trains for their value. While I realize that this group's purpose is not to collect these H0 models but to operate them, still -- I enjoy collecting them as much as I do operating them. After all, we can't operate them without accumulating them, and while we're accumulating them (and needing to know what they are) it would seem to enhance their appreciation by us if we made a point to "collect" them -- as buying towards completing collections of what these various manufacturers made. Don't need to collect every H0 manufacturer, even though some of us may, but acquiring and completing a manufacturer's line gives a certain sense of satisfaction.

I would only like to add that, while Sol Kramer did continue the Varney name, which extended the period of when we were able to purchase this manufacturing line, he didn't always hold to the design or material standards that Gordon Varney did. As such, I find the original (Gordon Varney - manufactured) Varney Yard Switcher to be equally as good as Irv Athearn's SW-7, if not better. Nothing against Athearn's SW-7 as it was fine, but Gordon Varney made excellent models. On the other hand, and while I don't like to discredit Varney products, I'm sorry to say that I wouldn't give 2 cents for a Sol Kramer - manufactured Varney Yard Switcher, especially the ones after 1960 when Kramer used the Japanese KM-1 motor with the plastic spur gear. The quality of materials is just not there any longer when Kramer produced the Varney Yard Switcher from 1960, on. The same seems to hold true when Kramer produced the F Units (F-3's and F-7's) having the same motor & spur gear, as compared the Gordon Varney's metal F-3's, as I've experience them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/6/2018 1:43:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26622	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I've been thinking of trying to rebuild a Varney Yard Switcher with NWSL gears.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Well, the old Varney switcher works REALLY well with a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. 😁

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 1:13 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26623	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Bob,

With you buying that Tenshodo FT set right after the Korean War, the chance is good that it may have been produced during the War. As has been stated on this group many times, that was the period when we could expect most of the Zamak problems to occur, because of certain metal shortages. Gordon Varney must have been paying strict attention to the Zamak metal alloy during the Korean War, as while no early H0 manufacturer during that time completely escaped at least some small measure of zinc-pest later on, Varney's die castings were relatively free of Zamak problems, even though we may encounter it occasionally. As Varney farmed some of his production operations out to such firms as Adams & Sons foundry, he must hafve kept right on top of things with them. Then too, Adams & Sons were one of the leading casting firms for the hobby back then, paying close attention to their own quality. Your NWSL re-gearing idea for your Varney Yard Switcher sounds good, but be sure to use a Pittman motor with it -- not the Japanese K-1 motor that came with the later models.

I realize you have a few years on me, what with being in Korea back then. I was only 15 in 1954, and I'm not even sure how readily available brass models were here in the US then, although I have to assume that at least the larger hobby shops carried IMP/Takara (much of it being made by Tenshodo). My first H0 diesel was an A/B set of the Varney metal F3's that I bought as two pieces months apart in 1951. As a 12 year old then, it wasn't easy to save up for a model costing $20 by doing chores; it took a good while. The first H0 freight car I bought was a Varney metal ERIE Boxcar which I really enjoyed assembling. It was plenty scale enough for me back then, and is still scale enough for me now, even though I believe the Athearn metal freight cars are more to the correct height.

I suppose the Varney plastic freight cars are collectable and presentably operable (if good trucks are installed), but these are the same models that Sol Kramer continued into the first Life Like line of models, which were not regarded very highly (at all). Athearn had a decent line of plastic freight cars when they had the (manually) operating metal reefer doors. Train Miniature was more refined too. Many Red Ball kits included cardboard sides and assembled convincing well. Ideal and Megow also used them, as did so many others. I remember building my first Comet box car with embossed cardboard sides back then, given to me as a birthday present by a 6th-grade schoolmate. I thought that was really advanced and extremely realistic! You probably remember the printed Champion (later, to become Champ Decals Co.) cardboard sides that could be bought in the hobby shops. Northeastern wood was probably not around yet then, but we'd build our own freight car bodies and apply these cardboard sides to them. I don't recall clearly, but Walthers probably offered similar stripwood at that time. A few wire grab-irons and steps/stirrups made them detailed enough to look just fine.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/6/2018 1:02:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I remember the Varney diesels from about the mid 50's. I had a set of Tenshodo FTs I brought home from Korea in 1954. The Varney drives seemed to be very similar to the Tenshodo drive. But the Varney white metal was much better. By the mid 60's the Tenshodo white metal had turned to dust.

When I look at my metal Varney F-3s they don't have the level of detail of Athearn's F-7s. But I don't care. I can't see the detail when they are running.

What I look for is mid 50's Varney freight car kits. The ones with brass sides. I have some the wood parts and some that have plastic parts.

Christmas 1955 I was given a Varney PFE reefer that had the brass sides and plastic floor and roof. I liked that vintage.

But I don't like any of the later all plastic Varney cars. They were TOY TRAIN stuff.

On eBay you can still find 1950's vintage unbuilt kits like Ulrich and Silver Streak. You can build them the way we did in the 60's.

And today's train people don't seem to have any interest in these kits. They are not good enough for today's interests. But they are just fine for my interests.

You can even find the cardboard sides and make your own using Northeastern wood.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 7:31 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Bob, I always enjoy reading your input. I doubt very many of us are into vintage trains for their value. While I realize that this group's purpose is not to collect these H0 models but to operate them, still -- I enjoy collecting them as much as I do operating them. After all, we can't operate them without accumulating them, and while we're accumulating them (and needing to know what they are) it would seem to enhance their appreciation by us if we made a point to "collect" them -- as buying towards completing collections of what these various manufacturers made. Don't need to collect every H0 manufacturer, even though some of us may, but acquiring and completing a manufacturer's line gives a certain sense of satisfaction.

I would only like to add that, while Sol Kramer did continue the Varney name, which extended the period of when we were able to purchase this manufacturing line, he didn't always hold to the design or material standards that Gordon Varney did. As such, I find the original (Gordon Varney - manufactured) Varney Yard Switcher to be equally as good as Irv Athearn's SW-7, if not better. Nothing against Athearn's SW-7 as it was fine, but Gordon Varney made excellent models. On the other hand, and while I don't like to discredit Varney products, I'm sorry to say that I wouldn't give 2 cents for a Sol Kramer - manufactured Varney Yard Switcher, especially the ones after 1960 when Kramer used the Japanese KM-1 motor with the plastic spur gear. The quality of materials is just not there any longer when Kramer produced the Varney Yard Switcher from 1960, on. The same seems to hold true when Kramer produced the F Units (F-3's and F-7's) having the same motor & spur gear, as compared the Gordon Varney's metal F-3's, as I've experience them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/6/2018 1:43:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26624	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Sean - You offered us useful commentary on this subject made credible by
your own experience in the marketplace. I don't see an easy way out for
any of us collectors except to dispose of items low on our "keep" lists
as soon as we can. I see too many forces in our American culture that
work against model railroad building, especially in larger scales. Not
quite this extreme in the EU or Japan where hobby activities related to
miniatures seem to have a dedicated youthful component.

That said it's important to observe some realities. There will always
be a segment of highly creative people in any society. That includes
those with high standards of living that allow pursuit of hobbies.
Among that segment there will be those inclined to create miniature
representations of the real world perhaps as a form of escape. The
"making process" whether it be an exercise with a computer of sorts or
an actual hands on effort offers both a form of personal satisfaction
from the building process and a means to gain satisfying recognition
from one's peers. In a marketplace numbered in billions it doesn't take
a very large proportion to form the basis of a business model or a
constructive association of like minds if the communication connections
can be forged.

Look around our hobby and you will see some flourishing segments. Each
grows out of a world, often historic, that participants wish to
recreate. Current interest in Civil War railroads is a good example.
Less obvious is the simmering interest in post Civil War to the TOC
segment of American railroad history.

All this will be of scant satisfaction to owners of model collections
measured in the hundreds who see a rapidly diminishing demand for bulky
possessions in an increasingly mobile society (USA). But I think it is
inevitable. Best you enjoy that collection you choose to keep with the
idea that it is a source of pride and joy while you live your life and
like a garden that one cares for until infirmity catches up with an
aging body finally dies away and returns its atoms to the universe.

Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26625	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I did not know NWSL made gears for the Varney NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 12:46 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I've been thinking of trying to rebuild a Varney Yard Switcher with NWSL gears.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Well, the old Varney switcher works REALLY well with a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. 😁

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 1:13 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26626	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

My guess is that this installation can be improvised and adapted to operate with a Varney NW-2 motor and power truck. I've never given it a thought previously, but I don't see why the drive gear on the motor shaft can't be removed as well as the mating driven gear on the power truck, and replaced with a more efficient NWSL gear set of sorts -- perhaps with different ratios giving more power to the axles. For that matter, the pulleys and steel band arrangement should be able to be converted also.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/6/2018 2:35:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I did not know NWSL made gears for the Varney NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 12:46 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I've been thinking of trying to rebuild a Varney Yard Switcher with NWSL gears.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Well, the old Varney switcher works REALLY well with a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. 😁

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 1:13 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26627	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

My fist effort is to replace the NW-2 axel gears and the worms with some from NWSL. If I can do that then I will look at the motor gears.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 2:26 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

My guess is that this installation can be improvised and adapted to operate with a Varney NW-2 motor and power truck. I've never given it a thought previously, but I don't see why the drive gear on the motor shaft can't be removed as well as the mating driven gear on the power truck, and replaced with a more efficient NWSL gear set of sorts -- perhaps with different ratios giving more power to the axles. For that matter, the pulleys and steel band arrangement should be able to be converted also.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/6/2018 2:35:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I did not know NWSL made gears for the Varney NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 12:46 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I've been thinking of trying to rebuild a Varney Yard Switcher with NWSL gears.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Well, the old Varney switcher works REALLY well with a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. 😁

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 1:13 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26628	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

NWSL does not offer a gear set for the Varney Yard Switcher.

I am considering trying to find a set of NWSL gears that would work in the Varney switcher.

Bob K5MYJ

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 11:28 AM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I did not know NWSL made gears for the Varney NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 12:46 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I've been thinking of trying to rebuild a Varney Yard Switcher with NWSL gears.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

Well, the old Varney switcher works REALLY well with a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. 😁

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2018 1:13 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

The OLD FARTS that have an interest in this stuff is getting smaller. And most of us really don't need more.

You should not collect it for value. I do it for nostalgia. An Athern SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher, but I just like the Varney.

Here you cannot run any of this old stuff on any of the club layouts. All the local club layouts are DCC with code 83 track.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 2:19 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

I see the same thing at the shows. The vintage locos and cars that we love so much command a much lower price than they did 15 years ago. My collection is worth a fraction of what it was worth. I have talked to the Lionel sellers and their prices have done the same thing.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26629	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/6/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows

The scanner would be nice. In lieu of that, a volunteer cad artist who is just in love with trains.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 1/6/18, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage loco seen at train shows
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 6, 2018, 4:18 AM

I predict that within 3 years we will have reliable
and cheap 3d scanners and the really nice liquid resin
printers that today are $500 will be large enough to handle
a HO Northern body as well as the rest of the needed
non-mechanical parts for about the same price.
The collections will be great
pieces, while the likely more common fragments and wrecks of
partial models will be our 'patterns' to be able to
have small fleets of our favorite models that we always
wanted to have, but just aren't around enough in decent
numbers to have the models we'd like to
operate.
As you
might see, I'm not very worried about having a high
valued collection as much as wishing for a nice operating
'fleet'.
Dang
... I want that scanner !!!

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Jan 5, 2018, at 3:55 PM, Sean
Naylor a69mustang4me@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:
I
do not see the prices getting any better (for sellers or
enthusiasts thinking they have a fortune tied up in their
collection). In fact, I expect between 10 and 15 years from
the now the bottom will fall out completely for such older
models. I will likely still be buying then since by then I
will just be entering into my retirement
age.

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733 --
#yiv9078374733ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mkp #yiv9078374733hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mkp #yiv9078374733ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mkp .yiv9078374733ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mkp .yiv9078374733ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mkp .yiv9078374733ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9078374733ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9078374733ygrp-lc #yiv9078374733hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9078374733ygrp-lc .yiv9078374733ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733activity span
.yiv9078374733underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9078374733 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9078374733 dd.yiv9078374733last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9078374733 dd.yiv9078374733last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9078374733 dd.yiv9078374733last p
span.yiv9078374733yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv9078374733 div.yiv9078374733attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9078374733 div.yiv9078374733attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv9078374733 div.yiv9078374733file-title a, #yiv9078374733
div.yiv9078374733file-title a:active, #yiv9078374733
div.yiv9078374733file-title a:hover, #yiv9078374733
div.yiv9078374733file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9078374733 div.yiv9078374733photo-title a,
#yiv9078374733 div.yiv9078374733photo-title a:active,
#yiv9078374733 div.yiv9078374733photo-title a:hover,
#yiv9078374733 div.yiv9078374733photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9078374733 div#yiv9078374733ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv9078374733ygrp-msg p a span.yiv9078374733yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv9078374733 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9078374733 .yiv9078374733replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv9078374733 input, #yiv9078374733 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv9078374733
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-mlmsg #yiv9078374733logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-msg
p#yiv9078374733attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-reco
#yiv9078374733reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-sponsor #yiv9078374733ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-sponsor #yiv9078374733ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-sponsor #yiv9078374733ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv9078374733 #yiv9078374733ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv9078374733

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26630	From: takefive247	Date: 1/7/2018
Subject: Mantua Brass engine parts and info needed

It’s been awhile since I have had time to work on my Mantua collection and I see things have changed here a bit so I hope it’s OK to post my needs.

The Little Bee 0-4-0T needs;

the three screws that hold the water tank support yoke.

the bell.

Roundhouse Goat needs;

one screw for rear steps on tender

The 8 Ball Mogul needs.

Rear bakelite deck, #2881 ?

Main rod and crosshead assembly #17104 ?

Coupler loop, hook pin & pocket-#2552, 2553, 2554, 2555. ?

Belle of the Eighties needs:

Smoke stack and screw

Coupler loop, hook pin & pocket - X-548 set, X-545 pockit, - X-546 bushing

Tender truck & screw – X-547 ?

Main driver with gear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26631	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2018
Subject: Re: Mantua Brass engine parts and info needed

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 1/7/18, townline58@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Brass engine parts and info needed
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 7, 2018, 12:18 PM

It’s been awhile
since I have had time to work on my Mantua collection and I
see
things have changed here a bit so I hope it’s OK to post
my needs.

The Little Bee
0-4-0T needs;
the three screws
that hold the water tank support yoke.
the bell.

Roundhouse Goat
needs;
one screw for rear
steps on tender

The 8 Ball Mogul
needs.
Rear bakelite deck,
#2881 ?
Main rod and
crosshead assembly #17104 ?
Coupler loop, hook
pin & pocket-#2552, 2553, 2554, 2555. ?

Belle of the
Eighties needs:
Smoke stack and
screw
Coupler loop, hook
pin & pocket - X-548 set, X-545 pockit, - X-546
bushing
Tender truck &
screw – X-547 ?
Main driver with
gear

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827 --
#yiv9292320827ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mkp #yiv9292320827hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mkp #yiv9292320827ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mkp .yiv9292320827ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mkp .yiv9292320827ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mkp .yiv9292320827ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9292320827ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9292320827ygrp-lc #yiv9292320827hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9292320827ygrp-lc .yiv9292320827ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827activity span
.yiv9292320827underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9292320827 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9292320827 dd.yiv9292320827last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9292320827 dd.yiv9292320827last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9292320827 dd.yiv9292320827last p
span.yiv9292320827yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv9292320827 div.yiv9292320827attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9292320827 div.yiv9292320827attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv9292320827 div.yiv9292320827file-title a, #yiv9292320827
div.yiv9292320827file-title a:active, #yiv9292320827
div.yiv9292320827file-title a:hover, #yiv9292320827
div.yiv9292320827file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9292320827 div.yiv9292320827photo-title a,
#yiv9292320827 div.yiv9292320827photo-title a:active,
#yiv9292320827 div.yiv9292320827photo-title a:hover,
#yiv9292320827 div.yiv9292320827photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9292320827 div#yiv9292320827ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv9292320827ygrp-msg p a span.yiv9292320827yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv9292320827 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9292320827 .yiv9292320827replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv9292320827 input, #yiv9292320827 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv9292320827
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-mlmsg #yiv9292320827logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-msg
p#yiv9292320827attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-reco
#yiv9292320827reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-sponsor #yiv9292320827ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-sponsor #yiv9292320827ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-sponsor #yiv9292320827ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv9292320827 #yiv9292320827ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv9292320827

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26632	From: david_helber	Date: 1/7/2018
Subject: Mystery FM Body

Anybody know who made the FM switcher body in this lot?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atlas-an-others-HO-Scale-Shells-5-for-restoration-or-parts/222784006929?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44039%26meid%3Dbf6b2d77b41147faabfaa4aac0557fd2%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D312039063851&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I feel like I ought to know this, but the only one I can think of is Cary, and I don't think this is one.

Thanks,

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26633	From: trainliker	Date: 1/7/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

Attachments :

I don’t think it is Cary. From a review in a Model Railroad, the Cary seemed to have single, not double, headlights.

It’s too bad his side view shots are so blurry.

The December, 1952 Model Railroader, page 71, has an English - HObbyline ad showing one with double headlights. It is one piece cast plastic. It is reviewed in the March, 1853 issue with a better photo. The reviewed engine has the number “1000” on the cab like the eBay item, but no road name. The steps in the photo sure look like how the steps were done on the eBay item. Given the quality of the eBay photos, I can’t observe any difference in the body of the English and the eBay one. You might ask the seller if it is plastic. If so, it may be this.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: dnhelber@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, January 7, 2018 8:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery FM Body

Anybody know who made the FM switcher body in this lot?

I feel like I ought to know this, but the only one I can think of is Cary, and I don't think this is one.

Thanks,

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26634	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/7/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

That looks like a Hobby Line shell.

Hobby Line war an offshoot of John English if memory serves.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2018 10:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery FM Body

Anybody know who made the FM switcher body in this lot?

I feel like I ought to know this, but the only one I can think of is Cary, and I don't think this is one.

Thanks,

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26635	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/7/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

Definitely Hobby Line.

Here is a link to a complete HobbyLine FM on eBay

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HObbyline-HO-Model-Train-Faribanks-Morse-Diesel-Switcher-No-1000-Parts-Restore/332507706917?hash=item4d6b00f625:g:-NwAAOSwUwFaTTYW

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2018 10:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery FM Body

Anybody know who made the FM switcher body in this lot?

I feel like I ought to know this, but the only one I can think of is Cary, and I don't think this is one.

Thanks,

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26636	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 1/8/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

The black H-10-44 is a HOobyline from Ralph English. Mid to late 1950's that one and the FA-1's (which became the Lionel Alcos) were the mainstay of the Hobbyline line.

Don

Don
--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 1/7/18, dnhelber@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery FM Body
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 7, 2018, 10:33 PM

Anybody know who made the FM switcher
body in this lot?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atlas-an-others-HO-Scale-Shells-5-for-restoration-or-parts/222784006929?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44039%26meid%3Dbf6b2d77b41147faabfaa4aac0557fd2%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D312039063851&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I feel
like I ought to know this, but the only one I can think of
is Cary, and I don't think this is one.
Thanks,-- D

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084 --
#yiv8668649084ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mkp #yiv8668649084hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mkp #yiv8668649084ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mkp .yiv8668649084ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mkp .yiv8668649084ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mkp .yiv8668649084ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8668649084ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8668649084ygrp-lc #yiv8668649084hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8668649084ygrp-lc .yiv8668649084ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084activity span
.yiv8668649084underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8668649084 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8668649084 dd.yiv8668649084last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8668649084 dd.yiv8668649084last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8668649084 dd.yiv8668649084last p
span.yiv8668649084yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8668649084 div.yiv8668649084attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8668649084 div.yiv8668649084attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8668649084 div.yiv8668649084file-title a, #yiv8668649084
div.yiv8668649084file-title a:active, #yiv8668649084
div.yiv8668649084file-title a:hover, #yiv8668649084
div.yiv8668649084file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8668649084 div.yiv8668649084photo-title a,
#yiv8668649084 div.yiv8668649084photo-title a:active,
#yiv8668649084 div.yiv8668649084photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8668649084 div.yiv8668649084photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8668649084 div#yiv8668649084ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8668649084ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8668649084yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8668649084 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8668649084 .yiv8668649084replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8668649084 input, #yiv8668649084 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8668649084
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8668649084logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-msg
p#yiv8668649084attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-reco
#yiv8668649084reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-sponsor #yiv8668649084ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-sponsor #yiv8668649084ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-sponsor #yiv8668649084ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8668649084 #yiv8668649084ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8668649084

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26637	From: david_helber	Date: 1/10/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

Well, clearly, HObbyline/English is the maker. That's a manufacturer that I have little memory of, or experience with. I just have a soft spot for those high-nosed FM switchers.

Thanks to everybody who responded.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26638	From: Brad Smith	Date: 1/10/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

In real life, they were great locomotives. We loved them because like a Baldwin, nothing would stop them. With those Westinghouse traction motors, the loco would pull a whole mainline train, without overheating the electrical system. I know this is not "model information," but I thought somebody might be interested.

Brad Smith

In a message dated 1/10/2018 9:31:45 AM Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Well, clearly, HObbyline/English is the maker. That's a manufacturer that I have little memory of, or experience with. I just have a soft spot for those high-nosed FM switchers.

Thanks to everybody who responded.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26639	From: david_helber	Date: 1/10/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

I remember reading that the FM hoods were so high because Fairbanks-Morse was using its existing opposed-piston diesel engine designed for submarines in WWII. They just turned it on its side for the locos, so the hood had to be tall enough to accommodate both banks of cylinders with the crank between.

Also not model info (unless someone's modeling an FM with open doors), but a fun fact.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26640	From: Brad Smith	Date: 1/10/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

The FM engines were vertical in sub also.

Brad (ex bubblehead)

In a message dated 1/10/2018 10:31:25 AM Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I remember reading that the FM hoods were so high because Fairbanks-Morse was using its existing opposed-piston diesel engine designed for submarines in WWII. They just turned it on its side for the locos, so the hood had to be tall enough to accommodate both banks of cylinders with the crank between.

Also not model info (unless someone's modeling an FM with open doors), but a fun fact.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26641	From: trainliker	Date: 1/10/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

Attachments :

Yes, two engines in sub, one on each side, which I think is pretty standard. A photo is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbanks_Morse_38_8-1/8_diesel_engine

You can click through the first few images here, which are diagrams, to see how these were in the locomotive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbanks_Morse_38_8-1/8_diesel_engine

I am a docent at the model railroad at the San Luis Obispo Railroad Museum and frequently describe this engine because we run a Trainmaster sometimes, and its history as a submarine engine.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 8:36 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery FM Body

The FM engines were vertical in sub also.

Brad (ex bubblehead)

In a message dated 1/10/2018 10:31:25 AM Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I remember reading that the FM hoods were so high because Fairbanks-Morse was using its existing opposed-piston diesel engine designed for submarines in WWII. They just turned it on its side for the locos, so the hood had to be tall enough to accommodate both banks of cylinders with the crank between.

Also not model info (unless someone's modeling an FM with open doors), but a fun fact.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26642	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/10/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

Attachments :

Sorry “D” (everyone please sign your posts)

The F-M diesels had two crankshafts; one at the top and one at the bottom.

Each cylinder bore held two opposed pistons. In operation as the upper piston came down the lower piston rose up. The compression chamber was the space between the pistons. As the two pistons grew closer together, the air was compressed to a point that diesel fuel injected into the compression chamber would be ignited by the heat, forcing the two pistons apart. Sounds more confusing than it is. I’ve attached a photo from https://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/diesel/img/fig12-19.jpg of a submarine version of the F-M engine that will make it all a lot clearer. Having the upper and lower crankshafts made it taller than a opposed piston layout whit a central crankshaft were the piston spread away from each other.

While rather different than what we were accustomed to here they were quite dependable in use, a very basic requirement for submarine engines.

Another advantage of this layout simple 2 cycle mode of operation. No valves, cam shafts or any of their complicated operating pieces. About the only really fussy component was the injection pump, which had to timed to deliver the fuel charge to the combustion chamber at the precise moment. The two crankshafts also had to be timed properly which did require a method of lining up the cranks at the proper interval. They were not in total synchronization; one of the cranks was timed to run, I think 2 degrees, behind the other. IIRC the upper crank was the trailing one.

It was never had to determine if there was a F-M around here in Milwaukee as the billowing clouds of blue smoke gave them away.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 10:30 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery FM Body

Also not model info (unless someone's modeling an FM with open doors), but a fun fact.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26643	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 1/10/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

And you want to get REALLY weird, The English Electric "Deltic". It was like the FM, nut THREE crankkshafts,, and three pairs oF pistons in three working in tree cylenders
iMAGINE THREE FM'S ARRANGED IN A TRIANGLE,

DON
--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 1/10/18, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery FM Body
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2018, 1:34 PM

Sorry “D”
(everyone please sign your posts)The F-M diesels had
two crankshafts; one at the top and one at the
bottom.Each cylinder bore
held two opposed pistons. In operation as the upper piston
came down the lower piston rose up. The compression chamber
was the space between the pistons. As the two pistons grew
closer together, the air was compressed to a point that
diesel fuel injected into the compression chamber would be
ignited by the heat, forcing the two pistons apart. Sounds
more confusing than it is. I’ve attached a photo from https://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/diesel/img/fig12-19.jpg
of a submarine version of the F-M engine that will make it
all a lot clearer. Having the upper and lower crankshafts
made it taller than a opposed piston layout whit a central
crankshaft were the piston spread away from each
other.While rather
different than what we were accustomed to here they were
quite dependable in use, a very basic requirement for
submarine engines.Another advantage of
this layout simple 2 cycle mode of operation. No valves, cam
shafts or any of their complicated operating pieces. About
the only really fussy component was the injection pump,
which had to timed to deliver the fuel charge to the
combustion chamber at the precise moment. The two
crankshafts also had to be timed properly which did require
a method of lining up the cranks at the proper interval.
They were not in total synchronization; one of the cranks
was timed to run, I think 2 degrees, behind the other.
IIRC the upper crank was the trailing one.It was never had to
determine if there was a F-M around here in Milwaukee as the
billowing clouds of blue smoke gave them away.John
Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 10:30
AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery FM
Body I remember reading that the
FM hoods were so high because Fairbanks-Morse was using its
existing opposed-piston diesel engine designed for
submarines in WWII. They just turned it on its side for the
locos, so the hood had to be tall enough to accommodate both
banks of cylinders with the crank between. Also not model info (unless
someone's modeling an FM with open doors), but a fun
fact.
--
D

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248 --
#yiv6925804248ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mkp #yiv6925804248hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mkp #yiv6925804248ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mkp .yiv6925804248ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mkp .yiv6925804248ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mkp .yiv6925804248ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6925804248ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6925804248ygrp-lc #yiv6925804248hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6925804248ygrp-lc .yiv6925804248ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248activity span
.yiv6925804248underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6925804248 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6925804248 dd.yiv6925804248last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6925804248 dd.yiv6925804248last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6925804248 dd.yiv6925804248last p
span.yiv6925804248yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv6925804248 div.yiv6925804248attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6925804248 div.yiv6925804248attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv6925804248 div.yiv6925804248file-title a, #yiv6925804248
div.yiv6925804248file-title a:active, #yiv6925804248
div.yiv6925804248file-title a:hover, #yiv6925804248
div.yiv6925804248file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6925804248 div.yiv6925804248photo-title a,
#yiv6925804248 div.yiv6925804248photo-title a:active,
#yiv6925804248 div.yiv6925804248photo-title a:hover,
#yiv6925804248 div.yiv6925804248photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6925804248 div#yiv6925804248ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv6925804248ygrp-msg p a span.yiv6925804248yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv6925804248 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv6925804248 .yiv6925804248replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv6925804248 input, #yiv6925804248 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv6925804248
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-mlmsg #yiv6925804248logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-msg
p#yiv6925804248attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-reco
#yiv6925804248reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-sponsor #yiv6925804248ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-sponsor #yiv6925804248ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-sponsor #yiv6925804248ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv6925804248 #yiv6925804248ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv6925804248

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26644	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/10/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

Thanks Don.

I had forgotten the Deltic. The link below is for an animated drawing showing the three cranks and the three sets of opposed pistons in action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Deltic#/media/File:Napier_Deltic_Animation.gif

The 18 cylinder (three sets of 6 cylinders) railroad version was rated at 3.300 hp. Pretty heady stuff for the late 1950’s.

The engines were originally used for WWll British PT boats, similar to the F-M Diesels nautical history. Also two cycle with the combustion chambers formed the space between two pistons coming together in one cylinder, they the intake and exhaust was handled by ports at the base of the each piston stroke negating the use of any poppet valves and their actuating mechanisms.

The Type 55 Deltic’s numbered a total of 22 units albeit that did not include the original prototype unit.

In addition there were 10 Type 23 “Baby Deltic’s” built with what basically was a half a type 55 engine. They were rated at 1,100 hp. Both types careers ended in 1961 (Type 55) 0r 62 Type 23)..

While powerful they were also troublesome, especially the “Baby” units. The locomotive overall was pretty reliable except for the prime movers, requiring 44 engine replacements for the 10 locos.

All in all they were much loved by the British with 6 preserved Type 55’s (No Type 23’s, just one engine remains).

There are several vides on YouTube of the Deltic’s.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 4:59 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery FM Body

Posted by: Donald Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (12)

https://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/auctionview.cgi?lid=3035590

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26645	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/11/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

I recall reading many years ago about the FM diesel engines originally being designed for use in WWII submarines. But since that was these engines' applications when they were first built, the question remains, were these vessels then designated as Fairbanks-Morse U-Boats < g >?

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: dnhelber@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 10, 2018 11:31 am
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery FM Body

Also not model info (unless someone's modeling an FM with open doors), but a fun fact.

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26646	From: david_helber	Date: 1/12/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

> Sorry "D" (everyone please sign your posts)
> The F-M diesels had two crankshafts; one at the top and one at the bottom.

Thanks to John and Trainliker for the correction. I hear 'opposed-piston' and I reflexively think VWs, Porsches and BMW motorcycles - all horizontally-opposed center-crank engines. Sorry for the error.

-- David Norton Aloysius St. Elvgren d'Anconia Holyrood Helber, a.k.a. 'D'

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26647	From: Graeme	Date: 1/13/2018
Subject: Re: Mystery FM Body

In message <00b401d38a92$0c00be70$24023b50$@com>, "'John Hagen'
sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes

>All in all they were much loved by the British with 6 preserved Type
>55’s (No Type 23’s, just one engine remains).

The Deltic is almost certainly the best known of the British diesels,
perhaps our equivalent of the EMD F units in the US.

The Deltics were introduced in the early 60s, and withdrawn by 1982,
but, interestingly, one preserved example was brought back to main line
use in 2011 due to the growth of rail freight and lack of suitable
locos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHkoaIsaDHc
--
Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26648	From: anypaddler	Date: 1/14/2018
Subject: Re: EE Deltic (was Mystery FM Body)

Graeme wrote:

< The Deltic is almost certainly the best known of the British diesels, perhaps our equivalent of the EMD F units in the US.

-----------------------

At a meeting of the Hudson-Berkshire Division of the NMRA the other evening I mentioned the Deltic to one of our members, and he mentioned that he does indeed have a model of one running on his three-country layout (Germany-England-US).

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26649	From: Graeme	Date: 1/15/2018
Subject: Re: EE Deltic (was Mystery FM Body)

In message <6d973d.21bd57d5.478cc1c1@...>, "Alpvalsys@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes

>At a meeting of the Hudson-Berkshire Division of the NMRA the other
>evening I mentioned the Deltic to one of our members, and he mentioned
>that he does indeed have a model of one running on his three-country
>layout (Germany-England-US).

There have been various 00 models of the Deltic over the years, the only
one likely to be of interest to this group being by Hornby Dublo, with a
die cast body, from 1960 (+/-). Although under scale length, it was an
attractive and powerful model, available in plain green as well as two
names, Crepello for two rail and St Paddy for three rail, the latter
being quite collectible today.

Kitmaster made a scale length plastic kit at around the same time, then
Lima introduced their model, 1980s I think, and more recently, Bachmann
and (modern) Hornby. The Kitmaster kit is still available, sold by
Dapol.
--
Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26650	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 1/15/2018
Subject: Re: EE Deltic (was Mystery FM Body)

The Kitmaster one is th one I remember, I should check out the one that's still available, it was a kit I always wanted to get.

Don
--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 1/15/18, Graeme graeme@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: EE Deltic (was Mystery FM Body)
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 15, 2018, 3:25 AM

In message
<6d973d.21bd57d5.478cc1c1@...>,
"Alpvalsys@...

[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
writes

>At a meeting of the Hudson-Berkshire Division of the
NMRA the other

>evening I mentioned the Deltic to one of our members,
and he mentioned

>that he does indeed have a model of one running on his
three-country

>layout (Germany-England-US).

There have been various 00 models of the Deltic over the
years, the only

one likely to be of interest to this group being by Hornby
Dublo, with a

die cast body, from 1960 (+/-). Although under scale
length, it was an

attractive and powerful model, available in plain green as
well as two

names, Crepello for two rail and St Paddy for three rail,
the latter

being quite collectible today.

Kitmaster made a scale length plastic kit at around the same
time, then

Lima introduced their model, 1980s I think, and more
recently, Bachmann

and (modern) Hornby. The Kitmaster kit is still available,
sold by

Dapol.

--

Graeme, Scotland

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096 --
#yiv5692860096ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mkp #yiv5692860096hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mkp #yiv5692860096ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mkp .yiv5692860096ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mkp .yiv5692860096ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mkp .yiv5692860096ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5692860096ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5692860096ygrp-lc #yiv5692860096hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5692860096ygrp-lc .yiv5692860096ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096activity span
.yiv5692860096underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5692860096 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5692860096 dd.yiv5692860096last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5692860096 dd.yiv5692860096last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5692860096 dd.yiv5692860096last p
span.yiv5692860096yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv5692860096 div.yiv5692860096attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5692860096 div.yiv5692860096attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv5692860096 div.yiv5692860096file-title a, #yiv5692860096
div.yiv5692860096file-title a:active, #yiv5692860096
div.yiv5692860096file-title a:hover, #yiv5692860096
div.yiv5692860096file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5692860096 div.yiv5692860096photo-title a,
#yiv5692860096 div.yiv5692860096photo-title a:active,
#yiv5692860096 div.yiv5692860096photo-title a:hover,
#yiv5692860096 div.yiv5692860096photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5692860096 div#yiv5692860096ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv5692860096ygrp-msg p a span.yiv5692860096yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv5692860096 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5692860096 .yiv5692860096replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv5692860096 input, #yiv5692860096 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv5692860096
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-mlmsg #yiv5692860096logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-msg
p#yiv5692860096attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-reco
#yiv5692860096reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-sponsor #yiv5692860096ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-sponsor #yiv5692860096ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-sponsor #yiv5692860096ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv5692860096 #yiv5692860096ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv5692860096

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26651	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 1/19/2018
Subject: International CNJ 4-6-0 With Flighwheel Drive

Attachments :

Hello all,

It's been a while since my last contribution, but have been keeping up with most of the conversations and now have a bit more time to share some of my recent finds here. One of my most interesting catches is this brass International Models Central Railroad of New Jersey 4-6-0 "Mother Hubbard" in its original box with blueprint plans.

The model is included in International's 1954 catalog which also illustrates a most interesting feature called "Perpendicular Power Drive with Fly-Wheeling." I had not been aware that a steam locomotive with flywheel drive was manufactured in HO Scale as far back as 1954 . An image of that catalog page from HO Seeker with a complete description of the novel drive is also attached.

Unfortunately, my model is missing the open frame motor, worm and flywheel - however the support and intermediate gear is intact and barely visible in the side view. While it may be a challenge to come up with a matching worm, I don't think it is impossible.

However there is one additional flaw that might be a bit harder to repair. Notice that the Zamac driver centers have been attacked by the dreaded zinc pest and their slow expansion has caused the driver rims to actually split apart! I wonder if intact drivers from an otherwise crumbling all Zamac, later version of the same locomotive might work? Also the plastic pilot wheels also have turned white and chalky and need to be replaced – no problem there.

So a bit of a challenge to restore, but a nice display piece until it can turn the wheel under its own power.

I do have a few questions that one of you might be able to help with. Was this the first HO scale model steam locomotive with a fly wheel drive system? And does anyone know the production figures on this locomotive?

I'm very pleased with this find!

W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26652	From: earlyrail	Date: 1/21/2018
Subject: Auction Items

Not mine.

Several lots interesting to the Vintage HO folks

510 Winton 2-6-6-6 lit

504 Penn Line E-6 kit

614 Winton 2-8-4 kit

616 Penn Line K-4 kit

670 Penn Line GG-1 kit

882 Varney Aero Train and a Varney box set

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26653	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/21/2018
Subject: Re: Auction Items

Hi "early rail," Thanks for the link and for taking the time to go through all of the auction and ID'ing some interesting items. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who deep-sixed the notice of the auction from MR without checking it out, assuming it was all O Scale tinplate. Worth taking a look at the original Winton Allegheny kit including the cover art. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26654	From: jbark76	Date: 1/23/2018
Subject: Famoco B-1

Attachments :

I just picked up a Famoco B-1 in the box, with a bonus! There was also a Castor Plastics B-1 in with it. I posted pictures somewhere in the groups photo section. (I didn't see them in my folder or at the top, but it may take time for them to show up.) The box has some very neat artwork. I already had some junk parts, so I should be able to make a coupled pair, someday.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26655	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 1/23/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

JBark, It is great when a bonus find like that happens! Two difficult to find early B-1's in one box! Although no photos have surfaced on our group page, one of them did make it into my email feed. W. Jay W.

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 1/23/18, jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2018, 11:01 AM

I just picked up a Famoco B-1 in the box,
with a bonus! There was also a Castor Plastics B-1 in with
it. I posted pictures somewhere in the groups photo
section. (I didn't see them in my folder or at the
top, but it may take time for them to show up.) The box
has some very neat artwork. I already had some junk parts,
so I should be able to make a coupled pair,
someday.

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512 --
#yiv4333595512ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mkp #yiv4333595512hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mkp #yiv4333595512ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mkp .yiv4333595512ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mkp .yiv4333595512ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mkp .yiv4333595512ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4333595512ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4333595512ygrp-lc #yiv4333595512hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4333595512ygrp-lc .yiv4333595512ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512activity span
.yiv4333595512underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4333595512 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4333595512 dd.yiv4333595512last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4333595512 dd.yiv4333595512last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4333595512 dd.yiv4333595512last p
span.yiv4333595512yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4333595512 div.yiv4333595512attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4333595512 div.yiv4333595512attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4333595512 div.yiv4333595512file-title a, #yiv4333595512
div.yiv4333595512file-title a:active, #yiv4333595512
div.yiv4333595512file-title a:hover, #yiv4333595512
div.yiv4333595512file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4333595512 div.yiv4333595512photo-title a,
#yiv4333595512 div.yiv4333595512photo-title a:active,
#yiv4333595512 div.yiv4333595512photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4333595512 div.yiv4333595512photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4333595512 div#yiv4333595512ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4333595512ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4333595512yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4333595512 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4333595512 .yiv4333595512replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4333595512 input, #yiv4333595512 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4333595512
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4333595512logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-msg
p#yiv4333595512attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-reco
#yiv4333595512reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-sponsor #yiv4333595512ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-sponsor #yiv4333595512ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-sponsor #yiv4333595512ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4333595512 #yiv4333595512ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4333595512

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26656	From: jbark76	Date: 1/24/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Attachments :

It may be that the file is too big for posting and I have to try a smaller file.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26657	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/24/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Attachments :

I saw the 2 attached photos, look neat.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 8:10 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

It may be that the file is too big for posting and I have to try a smaller file.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26658	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/24/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Both shots came through for me as well. They're both decent looking models, but I prefer the one on the left in the second shot, which I believe to be the Famoco model. It's appears more to scale. Nice find!

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 24, 2018 8:23 am
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

It may be that the file is too big for posting and I have to try a smaller file.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26659	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/24/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

At one time Lionel made a model of the boxcab electrics that were used by the NYC to move trains into Grand Central.

Was any such model ever made in HO?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 9:18 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Both shots came through for me as well. They're both decent looking models, but I prefer the one on the left in the second shot, which I believe to be the Famoco model. It's appears more to scale. Nice find!

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 24, 2018 8:23 am
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

It may be that the file is too big for posting and I have to try a smaller file.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26660	From: louis niederlander	Date: 1/24/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

I'm not so sure about that. Lionel made a number of boxcab electrics pre war. All would require a vivid imagination to equate them to an exact prototype (although many can identify them to some degree). Postwar Lionel made a red number 520 whose prototype was a GE unit made for Chilean copper mines. Lionel also made full scale PRR rats. No other boxcabs that I can recall.

You may be thinking of Sunset 3rd Rail who made P, R, and T motors in O gauge; not sure if they made them in HO. MTH also made p motors in O.

Hope that helps.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 5:58 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

At one time Lionel made a model of the boxcab electrics that were used by the NYC to move trains into Grand Central.

Was any such model ever made in HO?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 9:18 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Both shots came through for me as well. They're both decent looking models, but I prefer the one on the left in the second shot, which I believe to be the Famoco model. It's appears more to scale. Nice find!

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 24, 2018 8:23 am
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

It may be that the file is too big for posting and I have to try a smaller file.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26661	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/24/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Model Engineering Works produced a New York Central/Cleveland Union Terminal P-Motor which pulled trains in and out of Grand Central Terminal via 3rd rail, which I have in my collection, and IMP/Takara (International Model Products) produced several boxcab motors in various sizes, all with pantagraphs; one being about the size of the Famoco PRR B1 Switcher but with having a BB wheel arrangement and another larger PRR Class OI having a 2-B-2 wheel arrangement (both also made by IMP in 0 scale). Then, Super Scale produced a New York Central BB Switcher with a body of etched copper. I don't know what class it represented but it was a bit larger than the NYC S-Motor (S-1, S-2, S-2a and S-3). Those here familiar with Super Scale may remember them as producing the much sought after (by those who know what they are) factory painted (but unlettered) copper-body passenger cars, similar to Central Lines/Exacta, but heavyweight rather than streamline. I have a few but was never able to complete a set.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 24, 2018 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

You may be thinking of Sunset 3rd Rail who made P, R, and T motors in O gauge; not sure if they made them in HO. MTH also made p motors in O.

Hope that helps.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 5:58 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

At one time Lionel made a model of the boxcab electrics that were used by the NYC to move trains into Grand Central.

Was any such model ever made in HO?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 9:18 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Both shots came through for me as well. They're both decent looking models, but I prefer the one on the left in the second shot, which I believe to be the Famoco model. It's appears more to scale. Nice find!

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 24, 2018 8:23 am
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

It may be that the file is too big for posting and I have to try a smaller file.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26662	From: louis niederlander	Date: 1/24/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Thanks so much for that insight.

Late last year one of my long time friends and CUT P motor engineer passed on. I had the pleasure of delivering some of his tales at his memorial.....

my favorite.....

Don Speidel's favorite locomotive was the P motor. He was a passenger on a train into Grand Central Terminal and at a station stop talked with the engineer about his service. Don was invited to the cab for the rest of the ride. At the next station stop the engineer informs Don... take this train into GCT; this is my stop. I was wondering how I was going to plant those fruit trees. With the fireman as his pilot Don got to run a P motor into GCT.

Sorry, I digress.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

You may be thinking of Sunset 3rd Rail who made P, R, and T motors in O gauge; not sure if they made them in HO. MTH also made p motors in O.

Hope that helps.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 5:58 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

At one time Lionel made a model of the boxcab electrics that were used by the NYC to move trains into Grand Central.

Was any such model ever made in HO?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26663	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/24/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

That's amazingly "human" and extremely interesting. I don't see it as being very much off topic when our models are based on the prototypes (with the prototypes having to include those who operated them). Great story!

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 24, 2018 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Thanks so much for that insight.

Late last year one of my long time friends and CUT P motor engineer passed on. I had the pleasure of delivering some of his tales at his memorial.....

my favorite.....

Sorry, I digress.

Louis N

You may be thinking of Sunset 3rd Rail who made P, R, and T motors in O gauge; not sure if they made them in HO. MTH also made p motors in O.

Hope that helps.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 5:58 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

At one time Lionel made a model of the boxcab electrics that were used by the NYC to move trains into Grand Central.

Was any such model ever made in HO?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26664	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/25/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Hello Ray W., and All,

I believe that the Super Scale NYC electric locomotive model that you mentioned was of the DES-3 "Tri-power" diesel – battery – electric box cab. I don't believe I've ever seen a photograph of the SS model.

During the 1970s, NJ Custom Brass imported HO Scale Models of the DES-3 from Japan. Dick Wheeler's M.E.W. - Model Engineering Works also imported models of the NYC-T1 box cab with intermediate length articulated decks and squared sand boxes in the mid to late 1960's. Later, similar T-2's (round sand boxes) were imported by Alco Models in the 1970s.

W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26665	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/25/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

"jbark" Both additional photos are good. The Castor B-1 is said to be the first plastic HO scale locomotive ever manufactured - is anyone here able to confirm that information? I see that yours has the original stamped aluminum pantograph, too! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26666	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 1/25/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Attachments :

Hello Ray W., and All, I believe that the Super Scale NYC electric locomotive model that you mentioned was of the DES-3 "Tri-power" diesel – battery – electric box cab. I don't believe I've ever seen a photograph of the SS model.

During the 1970s, NJ Custom Brass imported HO Scale Models same locomotive from Japan. Dick Wheeler's M.E.W. -Model Engineering Works also imported models of the NYC-T1 box cab with intermediate length articulated decks and squared sand boxes in the mid to late 1960's. (Photo attached is of a T-1, heavily painted in glossy back black I found in pieces on eBay a couple years ago.) Later, similar T-2's (round sand boxes) were imported by Alco Models in the 1970s.

W. Jay W.
--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 1/24/18, Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 24, 2018, 6:29 PM

Model Engineering
Works produced a New York Central/Cleveland Union Terminal
P-Motor which pulled trains in and out of Grand Central
Terminal via 3rd rail, which I have in my collection, and
IMP/Takara (International Model Products) produced several
boxcab motors in various sizes, all with pantagraphs; one
being about the size of the Famoco PRR B1 Switcher but with
having a BB wheel arrangement and another larger PRR Class
OI having a 2-B-2 wheel arrangement (both also made by IMP
in 0 scale). Then, Super Scale produced a New York Central
BB Switcher with a body of etched copper. I don't know
what class it represented but it was a bit larger than the
NYC S-Motor (S-1, S-2, S-2a and S-3). Those here familiar
with Super Scale may remember them as producing the much
sought after (by those who know what they are) factory
painted (but unlettered) copper-body passenger cars, similar
to Central Lines/Exacta, but heavyweight rather than
streamline. I have a few but was never able to complete a
set.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original
Message-----
From: louis niederlander
l_niederlander@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To:
vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 24, 2018 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

I'm not so
sure about that. Lionel made a number of boxcab electrics
pre war. All would require a vivid imagination to equate
them to an exact prototype (although many can identify them
to some degree). Postwar
Lionel made a red number 520 whose prototype was a GE unit
made for Chilean copper mines. Lionel also made full scale
PRR rats. No other boxcabs that I can recall.

You may be
thinking of Sunset 3rd Rail who made P, R, and T motors in O
gauge; not sure if they made them in HO. MTH also made p
motors in O.

Hope that
helps.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 5:58 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

At one time Lionel made
a model of the boxcab electrics that were used by the NYC to
move trains into Grand Central.

Was any such model ever
made in HO?

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From:
Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 9:18 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Both shots came through for me as well. They're both
decent looking models, but I prefer the one on the left in
the second shot, which I believe to be the Famoco model.
It's appears more to scale. Nice find!

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----

From: jbark76@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wed, Jan 24, 2018 8:23 am

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

It may be that the file is too big for posting and I have
to try a smaller file.

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912 --
#yiv6473573912ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mkp #yiv6473573912hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mkp #yiv6473573912ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mkp .yiv6473573912ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mkp .yiv6473573912ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mkp .yiv6473573912ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6473573912ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6473573912ygrp-lc #yiv6473573912hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6473573912ygrp-lc .yiv6473573912ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912activity span
.yiv6473573912underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6473573912 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6473573912 dd.yiv6473573912last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6473573912 dd.yiv6473573912last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6473573912 dd.yiv6473573912last p
span.yiv6473573912yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv6473573912 div.yiv6473573912attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6473573912 div.yiv6473573912attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv6473573912 div.yiv6473573912file-title a, #yiv6473573912
div.yiv6473573912file-title a:active, #yiv6473573912
div.yiv6473573912file-title a:hover, #yiv6473573912
div.yiv6473573912file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6473573912 div.yiv6473573912photo-title a,
#yiv6473573912 div.yiv6473573912photo-title a:active,
#yiv6473573912 div.yiv6473573912photo-title a:hover,
#yiv6473573912 div.yiv6473573912photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6473573912 div#yiv6473573912ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv6473573912ygrp-msg p a span.yiv6473573912yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv6473573912 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv6473573912 .yiv6473573912replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv6473573912 input, #yiv6473573912 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv6473573912
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-mlmsg #yiv6473573912logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-msg
p#yiv6473573912attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-reco
#yiv6473573912reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-sponsor #yiv6473573912ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-sponsor #yiv6473573912ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-sponsor #yiv6473573912ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv6473573912 #yiv6473573912ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv6473573912

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26667	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/25/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Hello W. Jay,

You are quite correct in stating that the Super Scale NYC Electric Motor/Locomotive is the Tri-Power box cab loco. A photo of the model is shown in the Model R.R. Equipment Corp. All-Scale 1950 catalog and simply titled as Super-Scale's BB Switcher. The caption under the photo reads -- "Super Scale's BB Switcher May Be Used For Light Road Service." The description below this reads; "This is the three power switcher occasionally employed by the New York Central for local passenger runs. Superstructure of this model is made of etched copper, formed and stamped and factory assembled and soldered. All openings are punched out. Chassis is formed to accommodate any standard power truck."

Model Engineering works also imported some very nice NYNH&H electric motors/locomotives. In particular they offered the New Haven EF-1 and EP-3 motors. The Super-Scale DES-3 did not appear in Model R.R. Equipment Corp. H0 Scale 1953 catalog so it appears this model was offered for a short time only.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 25, 2018 1:55 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26668	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/25/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

My memory tells me tha the NYC also had F-Units that could run on 3rd rail out of NYC.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:16 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Hello W. Jay,

You are quite correct in stating that the Super Scale NYC Electric Motor/Locomotive is the Tri-Power box cab loco. A photo of the model is shown in the Model R.R. Equipment Corp. All-Scale 1950 catalog and simply titled as Super-Scale's BB Switcher. The caption under the photo reads -- "Super Scale's BB Switcher May Be Used For Light Road Service." The description below this reads; "This is the three power switcher occasionally employed by the New York Central for local passenger runs. Superstructure of this model is made of etched copper, formed and stamped and factory assembled and soldered. All openings are punched out. Chassis is formed to accommodate any standard power truck."

Model Engineering works also imported some very nice NYNH&H electric motors/locomotives. In particular they offered the New Haven EF-1 and EP-3 motors. The Super-Scale DES-3 did not appear in Model R.R. Equipment Corp. H0 Scale 1953 catalog so it appears this model was offered for a short time only.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 25, 2018 1:55 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Hello Ray W., and All,

I believe that the Super Scale NYC electric locomotive model that you mentioned was of the DES-3 "Tri-power" diesel – battery – electric box cab. I don't believe I've ever seen a photograph of the SS model.

During the 1970s, NJ Custom Brass imported HO Scale Models of the DES-3 from Japan. Dick Wheeler's M.E.W. - Model Engineering Works also imported models of the NYC-T1 box cab with intermediate length articulated decks and squared sand boxes in the mid to late 1960's. Later, similar T-2's (round sand boxes) were imported by Alco Models in the 1970s.

W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26669	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/25/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Sorry! It was the New Haven FL-9 I was thinking of!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 6:34 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

My memory tells me tha the NYC also had F-Units that could run on 3rd rail out of NYC.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:16 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Hello W. Jay,

You are quite correct in stating that the Super Scale NYC Electric Motor/Locomotive is the Tri-Power box cab loco. A photo of the model is shown in the Model R.R. Equipment Corp. All-Scale 1950 catalog and simply titled as Super-Scale's BB Switcher. The caption under the photo reads -- "Super Scale's BB Switcher May Be Used For Light Road Service." The description below this reads; "This is the three power switcher occasionally employed by the New York Central for local passenger runs. Superstructure of this model is made of etched copper, formed and stamped and factory assembled and soldered. All openings are punched out. Chassis is formed to accommodate any standard power truck."

Model Engineering works also imported some very nice NYNH&H electric motors/locomotives. In particular they offered the New Haven EF-1 and EP-3 motors. The Super-Scale DES-3 did not appear in Model R.R. Equipment Corp. H0 Scale 1953 catalog so it appears this model was offered for a short time only.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 25, 2018 1:55 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Hello Ray W., and All,

I believe that the Super Scale NYC electric locomotive model that you mentioned was of the DES-3 "Tri-power" diesel – battery – electric box cab. I don't believe I've ever seen a photograph of the SS model.

During the 1970s, NJ Custom Brass imported HO Scale Models of the DES-3 from Japan. Dick Wheeler's M.E.W. - Model Engineering Works also imported models of the NYC-T1 box cab with intermediate length articulated decks and squared sand boxes in the mid to late 1960's. Later, similar T-2's (round sand boxes) were imported by Alco Models in the 1970s.

W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26670	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/25/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

These dual-power F Units (FL9's) were built much later than the previous NYC electric locomotives we talked about, for the NYNH&H between 1956 and 1960, which used them for operating into Grand Central Terminal. The New Haven classified them as their EDER--5. They had an extremely long life with some eventually owned by Metro North and some owned by Amtrac, as late as 2009 (by MNR). More recently, the NJ shortline Morristown & Erie bought and operated five of them from Amtrak for their short-lived (2003-2015) subsidiary, the Maine Eastern. They still had at least a couple of them that I know of last year for use in NJ. Might still have some but I don't know. As for the life of the earlier electric locomotives used for operation into Grand Central Terminal, the T-Motors lasted until 1972 and the P-Motors lasted until 1974. I saw the P-Motors stored out-of-service at Croton-North (just above Croton-Harmon) along the Hudson River in 1975, which gave me a last opportunity to photograph them.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 25, 2018 10:04 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

My memory tells me that the NYC also had F-Units that could run on 3rd rail out of NYC.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:16 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Hello W. Jay,

You are quite correct in stating that the Super Scale NYC Electric Motor/Locomotive is the Tri-Power box cab loco. A photo of the model is shown in the Model R.R. Equipment Corp. All-Scale 1950 catalog and simply titled as Super-Scale's BB Switcher. The caption under the photo reads -- "Super Scale's BB Switcher May Be Used For Light Road Service." The description below this reads; "This is the three power switcher occasionally employed by the New York Central for local passenger runs. Superstructure of this model is made of etched copper, formed and stamped and factory assembled and soldered. All openings are punched out. Chassis is formed to accommodate any standard power truck."

Model Engineering works also imported some very nice NYNH&H electric motors/locomotives. In particular they offered the New Haven EF-1 and EP-3 motors. The Super-Scale DES-3 did not appear in Model R.R. Equipment Corp. H0 Scale 1953 catalog so it appears this model was offered for a short time only.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 25, 2018 1:55 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Hello Ray W., and All,

I believe that the Super Scale NYC electric locomotive model that you mentioned was of the DES-3 "Tri-power" diesel – battery – electric box cab. I don't believe I've ever seen a photograph of the SS model.

During the 1970s, NJ Custom Brass imported HO Scale Models of the DES-3 from Japan. Dick Wheeler's M.E.W. - Model Engineering Works also imported models of the NYC-T1 box cab with intermediate length articulated decks and squared sand boxes in the mid to late 1960's. Later, similar T-2's (round sand boxes) were imported by Alco Models in the 1970s.

W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26671	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/25/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

You're absolutely right!

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 25, 2018 11:03 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Sorry! It was the New Haven FL-9 I was thinking of!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 6:34 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

My memory tells me that the NYC also had F-Units that could run on 3rd rail out of NYC.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:16 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Hello W. Jay,

You are quite correct in stating that the Super Scale NYC Electric Motor/Locomotive is the Tri-Power box cab loco. A photo of the model is shown in the Model R.R. Equipment Corp. All-Scale 1950 catalog and simply titled as Super-Scale's BB Switcher. The caption under the photo reads -- "Super Scale's BB Switcher May Be Used For Light Road Service." The description below this reads; "This is the three power switcher occasionally employed by the New York Central for local passenger runs. Superstructure of this model is made of etched copper, formed and stamped and factory assembled and soldered. All openings are punched out. Chassis is formed to accommodate any standard power truck."

Model Engineering works also imported some very nice NYNH&H electric motors/locomotives. In particular they offered the New Haven EF-1 and EP-3 motors. The Super-Scale DES-3 did not appear in Model R.R. Equipment Corp. H0 Scale 1953 catalog so it appears this model was offered for a short time only.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 25, 2018 1:55 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1

Hello Ray W., and All,

I believe that the Super Scale NYC electric locomotive model that you mentioned was of the DES-3 "Tri-power" diesel – battery – electric box cab. I don't believe I've ever seen a photograph of the SS model.

During the 1970s, NJ Custom Brass imported HO Scale Models of the DES-3 from Japan. Dick Wheeler's M.E.W. - Model Engineering Works also imported models of the NYC-T1 box cab with intermediate length articulated decks and squared sand boxes in the mid to late 1960's. Later, similar T-2's (round sand boxes) were imported by Alco Models in the 1970s.

W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26672	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/26/2018
Subject: OT: Northeast Corridor

The discussion of the NYC boxcabs made me think about the electric operations on the Northeast Corridor.

I'm westerner so I did not have much contact with the Northeast Corridor. By I did work in the electronics idustry and spent a lot of time in the Washington DC area in the 60's and 70's.

I do remember the electric passenger service between Washington CD and Boston. It always impressed me.

I remember when Amtrak took over the passenger service in the 70's. They used the NE Corridor tracks for passenger service most of the day. The late at night Conrail used them for freight service. Conrail had electric locomotives to use on these tracks.

There are several areas of the country that could do this. The Los Angeles basin, The San Fracnisco Bay Area, and the Seattle/Portland area.

By doing so they could get a lot of truck traffic off the freeways and help reduce the smog problem.

GE can make dual power locomotives.

We are also seeing development of LIGHT RAIL systems that are replaceing some of the older INTERURBAN systems that went away when the freeways were built.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26673	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/26/2018
Subject: Re: OT: Northeast Corridor

Bob,

You make some very good points. Yes, the Northeast Corridor had terrific passenger service going back to when the PRR completed their electrification of the route. I would agree -- as would most other models and rail buffs -- that it was indeed impressive, to say the least. The major electrification project started somewhere after 1925, if not in that year, and fanned out from the Philadelphia area. By 1931, Trenton, NJ was reached to the north and Wilmington, DE was reached to the south. New York City and Washington, DC were reached in 1933 and Harrisburg, PA was reached in 1938, finishing the project. While the line was probably busiest during passenger trains' hey-day, traffic on that line never has slackened up much, if at all. I remember it was still extremely busy back in the mid ' 70's, before Conrail, and may be nearly as busy today.

Probably the most impressive electric locomotive to operate on the line (if not one of the most impressive in the country -- along with the New Haven's, Virginian's, Great Northern's, Milwaukee Road's and South Shore & South Bend's varying designs of large electrics) hauling passenger trains was the GG-1, first starting in 1935. So impressive, that when Lionel developed their version of the GG-1, they put it on the front cover of their first post-War catalog in the late Fall of 1945 (in time for the Holidays). I had not yet then graduated to H0 scale and so this Lionel catalog was something to drool over. My first long-distance train ride behind the GG-1's was in the Fall of 1942 and I still remember it to this day! It didn't hurt my recollection of that day when I was able to observe the engine change in Washington, DC, from the observation car, as a Washington Terminal 0-8-0 came up from behind and coupled to the observation only feet away from me on the other side of the glass, and pulled the train away from the power that brought the train in while the fresh power was added.

Yes, Conrail used the Northeast Corridor for freight, using, ex-New Haven RR E-33's and EP-5's as well as ex-Virginian Rwy E-33's and ex-PRR E-44's, although they did also use diesel power as needed. Electrification of the California areas and the Washington State/Oregon areas would be a big improvement in having clean rail transportation while helping freeing up the freeways of so much of that truck traffic. Touching on the many light rail systems around the country, I'm amazed that this kind of transportation was brought back after the demise of the old trolley car systems. It's like those in control of these situations finally admit that the trolley car lines' removal was a colossal mistake which should never have happened.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 10:27 am
Subject: [vintageHO] OT: Northeast Corridor

The discussion of the NYC boxcabs made me think about the electric operations on the Northeast Corridor.

I'm westerner so I did not have much contact with the Northeast Corridor. By I did work in the electronics idustry and spent a lot of time in the Washington DC area in the 60's and 70's.

I do remember the electric passenger service between Washington CD and Boston. It always impressed me.

There are several areas of the country that could do this. The Los Angeles basin, The San Fracnisco Bay Area, and the Seattle/Portland area.

By doing so they could get a lot of truck traffic off the freeways and help reduce the smog problem.

GE can make dual power locomotives.

We are also seeing development of LIGHT RAIL systems that are replaceing some of the older INTERURBAN systems that went away when the freeways were built.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26674	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/26/2018
Subject: Re: OT: Northeast Corridor

Ray,

In the case of the Seattle are the light rail here is being extended south to Tacoma. But a slightly different route.

You can go some places faster by the light rail than you can by driving on the freeways!

In the case of Los Angeles some of the light rail there is being developed on the old Pacific Electric right-of-way. And some of the units are being pained like the Pacific Electric.

I lived through the dismantling of the San Francisco Bay Area Key System and the building of the current BART system.

Here in Seattle we have dual power trackless trolleys. Electric where they have wires and (I THINK) natural gas where they don't have wires. They really should extend the wires to the major routes.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:09 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] OT: Northeast Corridor

Bob,

You make some very good points. Yes, the Northeast Corridor had terrific passenger service going back to when the PRR completed their electrification of the route. I would agree -- as would most other models and rail buffs -- that it was indeed impressive, to say the least. The major electrification project started somewhere after 1925, if not in that year, and fanned out from the Philadelphia area. By 1931, Trenton, NJ was reached to the north and Wilmington, DE was reached to the south. New York City and Washington, DC were reached in 1933 and Harrisburg, PA was reached in 1938, finishing the project. While the line was probably busiest during passenger trains' hey-day, traffic on that line never has slackened up much, if at all. I remember it was still extremely busy back in the mid ' 70's, before Conrail, and may be nearly as busy today.

Probably the most impressive electric locomotive to operate on the line (if not one of the most impressive in the country -- along with the New Haven's, Virginian's, Great Northern's, Milwaukee Road's and South Shore & South Bend's varying designs of large electrics) hauling passenger trains was the GG-1, first starting in 1935. So impressive, that when Lionel developed their version of the GG-1, they put it on the front cover of their first post-War catalog in the late Fall of 1945 (in time for the Holidays). I had not yet then graduated to H0 scale and so this Lionel catalog was something to drool over. My first long-distance train ride behind the GG-1's was in the Fall of 1942 and I still remember it to this day! It didn't hurt my recollection of that day when I was able to observe the engine change in Washington, DC, from the observation car, as a Washington Terminal 0-8-0 came up from behind and coupled to the observation only feet away from me on the other side of the glass, and pulled the train away from the power that brought the train in while the fresh power was added.

Yes, Conrail used the Northeast Corridor for freight, using, ex-New Haven RR E-33's and EP-5's as well as ex-Virginian Rwy E-33's and ex-PRR E-44's, although they did also use diesel power as needed. Electrification of the California areas and the Washington State/Oregon areas would be a big improvement in having clean rail transportation while helping freeing up the freeways of so much of that truck traffic. Touching on the many light rail systems around the country, I'm amazed that this kind of transportation was brought back after the demise of the old trolley car systems. It's like those in control of these situations finally admit that the trolley car lines' removal was a colossal mistake which should never have happened.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 10:27 am
Subject: [vintageHO] OT: Northeast Corridor

The discussion of the NYC boxcabs made me think about the electric operations on the Northeast Corridor.

I'm westerner so I did not have much contact with the Northeast Corridor. By I did work in the electronics idustry and spent a lot of time in the Washington DC area in the 60's and 70's.

I do remember the electric passenger service between Washington CD and Boston. It always impressed me.

I remember when Amtrak took over the passenger service in the 70's. They used the NE Corridor tracks for passenger service most of the day. The late at night Conrail used them for freight service. Conrail had electric locomotives to use on these tracks.

There are several areas of the country that could do this. The Los Angeles basin, The San Fracnisco Bay Area, and the Seattle/Portland area.

By doing so they could get a lot of truck traffic off the freeways and help reduce the smog problem.

GE can make dual power locomotives.

We are also seeing development of LIGHT RAIL systems that are replaceing some of the older INTERURBAN systems that went away when the freeways were built.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26675	From: luvprr2003	Date: 1/26/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Attachments :

All,

Thought I'd toss in a photo of my Famoco B-1 along with box and instructions. Runs well too.

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26676	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/26/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Art,

Always good to see a nicely finished vintage model. Even better to know it runs well. I presume you painted and lettered it (?). My Famoco GG-1 kit came with a painted body, but a dull black as though it were an undercoat to be finished/painted by the modeler. I have yet to assemble either one of my Schrader GG-1's. They came bare bronze, as did my Schrader NH EP-4.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

All,

Thought I'd toss in a photo of my Famoco B-1 along with box and instructions. Runs well too.

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26677	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/26/2018
Subject: Re: O/T: Light Rail; was, Northeast Corridor

Bob,

Light rail (or trolley cars of old) have always been the better way to go if wanting to get there at a certain time, as there's no traffic to contend with and they always try to maintain a schedule. Auto's aren't that predictable about knowing when you're going to arrive, with outside issues to contend with. The old Pacific Electric ROW should never have been torn up. That this same ROW is being developed for light rail is proof of that. Good to know some of the equipment is painted to look like Pacific Electric. I have several VHS tapes of the old Pacific Electrics in operation. Nice to see them run once again, but at least the route has been brought back.

Sometimes it takes an additional impetus to complete something that was begun, such as extending the wires where the alternate power of these trackless trolleys need to be used, especially if the officials in charge have other "more important" jobs to finish. Too often, if operations of such a route appear to go along well otherwise, stringing more wire is put on the back burner to linger. Hopefully some day you'll see this completed, but at least you have this form of public transportation in place until then.

Here in NJ, we have two areas where light rail has been installed. One is called the "River Line" and runs parallel with the Delaware River, between Trenton and Camden, and the other is called the "Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line." This latter light rail runs primarily between Hoboken and Jersey City and between Hoboken and North Bergen. It has yet to be built further north into Bergen County although plans for it is to bring it up into Englewood along the existing CSX Northern Branch (of the ex-Erie RR). Previous talks planned to bring it up further north along this same line, perhaps even another ten miles, but the residents of the town of Tenafly -- one town north of Englewood -- protested it as not needing it and as it possibly creating more traffic problems when activating the gates. They just didn't appreciate this service -- and -- Tenafly once had a trolley line in their town. Some people like this are not only more ignorant but they lack concern for other towns' residents north of them who may have wished to have this service in their towns. Somehow, the Tenafly residents' voice won out over NJ Transit's plans to built this line into and through this town, but I guess it's all due to bureaucracy and politics (and money). .

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 4:10 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] OT: Northeast Corridor

Ray,

In the case of the Seattle are the light rail here is being extended south to Tacoma. But a slightly different route.

You can go some places faster by the light rail than you can by driving on the freeways!

In the case of Los Angeles some of the light rail there is being developed on the old Pacific Electric right-of-way. And some of the units are being pained like the Pacific Electric.

I lived through the dismantling of the San Francisco Bay Area Key System and the building of the current BART system.

Here in Seattle we have dual power trackless trolleys. Electric where they have wires and (I THINK) natural gas where they don't have wires. They really should extend the wires to the major routes.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:09 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] OT: Northeast Corridor

Bob,

You make some very good points. Yes, the Northeast Corridor had terrific passenger service going back to when the PRR completed their electrification of the route. I would agree -- as would most other models and rail buffs -- that it was indeed impressive, to say the least. The major electrification project started somewhere after 1925, if not in that year, and fanned out from the Philadelphia area. By 1931, Trenton, NJ was reached to the north and Wilmington, DE was reached to the south. New York City and Washington, DC were reached in 1933 and Harrisburg, PA was reached in 1938, finishing the project. While the line was probably busiest during passenger trains' hey-day, traffic on that line never has slackened up much, if at all. I remember it was still extremely busy back in the mid ' 70's, before Conrail, and may be nearly as busy today.

Probably the most impressive electric locomotive to operate on the line (if not one of the most impressive in the country -- along with the New Haven's, Virginian's, Great Northern's, Milwaukee Road's and South Shore & South Bend's varying designs of large electrics) hauling passenger trains was the GG-1, first starting in 1935. So impressive, that when Lionel developed their version of the GG-1, they put it on the front cover of their first post-War catalog in the late Fall of 1945 (in time for the Holidays). I had not yet then graduated to H0 scale and so this Lionel catalog was something to drool over. My first long-distance train ride behind the GG-1's was in the Fall of 1942 and I still remember it to this day! It didn't hurt my recollection of that day when I was able to observe the engine change in Washington, DC, from the observation car, as a Washington Terminal 0-8-0 came up from behind and coupled to the observation only feet away from me on the other side of the glass, and pulled the train away from the power that brought the train in while the fresh power was added.

Yes, Conrail used the Northeast Corridor for freight, using, ex-New Haven RR E-33's and EP-5's as well as ex-Virginian Rwy E-33's and ex-PRR E-44's, although they did also use diesel power as needed. Electrification of the California areas and the Washington State/Oregon areas would be a big improvement in having clean rail transportation while helping freeing up the freeways of so much of that truck traffic. Touching on the many light rail systems around the country, I'm amazed that this kind of transportation was brought back after the demise of the old trolley car systems. It's like those in control of these situations finally admit that the trolley car lines' removal was a colossal mistake which should never have happened.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 10:27 am
Subject: [vintageHO] OT: Northeast Corridor

The discussion of the NYC boxcabs made me think about the electric operations on the Northeast Corridor.

I'm westerner so I did not have much contact with the Northeast Corridor. By I did work in the electronics idustry and spent a lot of time in the Washington DC area in the 60's and 70's.

I do remember the electric passenger service between Washington CD and Boston. It always impressed me.

I remember when Amtrak took over the passenger service in the 70's. They used the NE Corridor tracks for passenger service most of the day. The late at night Conrail used them for freight service. Conrail had electric locomotives to use on these tracks.

There are several areas of the country that could do this. The Los Angeles basin, The San Fracnisco Bay Area, and the Seattle/Portland area.

By doing so they could get a lot of truck traffic off the freeways and help reduce the smog problem.

GE can make dual power locomotives.

We are also seeing development of LIGHT RAIL systems that are replaceing some of the older INTERURBAN systems that went away when the freeways were built.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26678	From: wilmeaux	Date: 1/26/2018
Subject: Re: OT: Northeast Corridor

My understanding of the circumstance is that the demise of the trolleys, street cars and rail passenger systems in this country was not a mistake but, rather by deliberate planning by Fred Firestone and Rodger Smith in order to increase their sale of motor busses and tires. They and their friends would purchase these systems and shut them down, forcing their users onto the roads and motor coaches. At least this is the story as best I can recall it, being a small child when I first heard it.

Bill Anderson

Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:09 PM

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/vintagetrolley.htm

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] OT: Northeast Corridor

Bob,

You make some very good points. Yes, the Northeast Corridor had terrific passenger service going back to when the PRR completed their electrification of the route. I would agree -- as would most other models and rail buffs -- that it was indeed impressive, to say the least. The major electrification project started somewhere after 1925, if not in that year, and fanned out from the Philadelphia area. By 1931, Trenton, NJ was reached to the north and Wilmington, DE was reached to the south. New York City and Washington, DC were reached in 1933 and Harrisburg, PA was reached in 1938, finishing the project. While the line was probably busiest during passenger trains' hey-day, traffic on that line never has slackened up much, if at all. I remember it was still e xtremely busy back in the mid ' 70's, before Conrail, and may be nearly as busy today.

Probably the most impressive electric locomotive to operate on the line (if not one of the most impressive in the country -- along with the New Haven's, Virginian's, Great Northern's, Milwaukee Road's and South Shore & South Bend's varying designs of large electrics) hauling passenger trains was the GG-1, first starting in 1935. So impressive, that when Lionel developed their version of the GG-1, they put it on the front cover of their first post-War catalog in the late Fall of 1945 (in time for the Holidays). I had not yet then graduated to H0 scale and so this Lionel catalog was something to drool over. My first long-distance train ride behind the GG-1's was in the Fall of 1942 and I still remember it to this day! It didn't hurt my recollection of that day when I was able to observe the engine change in Washington, DC, from the observation car, a s a Washington Terminal 0-8-0 came up from behind and coupled to the observation only feet away from me on the other side of the glass, and pulled the train away from the power that brought the train in while the fresh power was added.

Yes, Conrail used the Northeast Corridor for freight, using, ex-New Haven RR E-33's and EP-5's as well as ex-Virginian Rwy E-33's and ex-PRR E-44's, although they did also use diesel power as needed. Electrification of the California areas and the Washington State/Oregon areas would be a big improvement in having clean rail transportation while helping freeing up the freeways of so much of that truck traffic. Touching on the many light rail systems around the country, I'm amazed that this kind of transportation was brought back after the demise of the old trolley car systems. It's like those in control of these situations finally admit that the trolley car lines' removal was a colossal mistake whic h should never have happened.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 10:27 am
Subject: [vintageHO] OT: Northeast Corridor

The discussion of the NYC boxcabs made me think about the electric operations on the Northeast Corridor.

I'm westerner so I did not have much contact with the Northeast Corridor. By I did work in the electronics idustry and spent a lot of time in the Washington DC area in the 60's and 70's.

I do remember the electric passenger service between Washington CD and Boston. It always impressed me.

There are several areas of the country that could do this. The Los Angeles basin, The San Fracnisco Bay Area, and the Seattle/Portland area.

By doing so they could get a lot of truck traffic off the freeways and help reduce the smog problem.

GE can make dual power locomotives.

We are also seeing development of LIGHT RAIL systems that are replaceing some of the older INTERURBAN systems that went away when the freeways were built.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26679	From: luvprr2003	Date: 1/26/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Ray,

Right. I painted and lettered it and should probably have painted it black instead of Brunswick green which shows up a little too brightly with the flash. Anyway, it was in sad shape when I got it years ago but got 'er shaped up (which is really my thing along with building the vintage kits). Sounds like you have some interesting GG1s. I have a Penn Line GG-1 kit which I am tempted to put together but may just keep it as a kit along with 12 other unbuilt Penn Line kits. In any case he who dies with the most toys wins--or so I've heard.

Art

In a message dated 1/26/2018 5:24:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Art,

Always good to see a nicely finished vintage model. Even better to know it runs well. I presume you painted and lettered it (?). My Famoco GG-1 kit came with a painted body, but a dull black as though it were an undercoat to be finished/painted by the modeler. I have yet to assemble either one of my Schrader GG-1's. They came bare bronze, as did my Schrader NH EP-4.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

All,

Thought I'd toss in a photo of my Famoco B-1 along with box and instructions. Runs well too.

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26680	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Art,

To look at your Famoco B-1, I could never have guessed that it was ever in sad shape as it appeared (just from its looks) that you had built it from a kit. As rebuilding such models is part of your "thing," you've done fine job with this piece; you found a good place to concentrate on. No one could have known it was in as bad a shape as you've said. I've often looked for a good Penn Line GG1 but either I could never find one at the price I thought fair or any I did find wasn't worth the money. While there's often one or two at many train meets, I remember going to one train meet in particular one day about 30 years ago and saw no less than a dozen or so with not one of them being in decent enough shape for me to want to buy one. Can't understand how a modeler can allow their equipment to get into such poor shape. Still don't have a Penn Line GG1, but I came across a mint Varney GG1 kit a few years ago on eBay that I picked up, which as you know, is essentially the same with Sol Kramer (Varney) acquiring it from Penn Line in the '60's. I have a real nice Rivarrosi GG1, but I don't count that as being vintage.

With all this talk about electric locos, you might think this is my "thing," but actually building steam locos is my bag -- and superdetailing them where appropriate. In my estimation though, it's not appropriate to superdetail a Varney engine to the point where that would change it, and there's no question that would change it -- but that's only my opinion. A quality paint job does wonders for them. Likewise, I'm not sure if I would superdetail a John English steamer, and I have four (kits) but again this is just my way of looking at things. I have no problem with, and I enjoy, superdetailing any Bowser steamer, even earlier ones that would be considered vintage (except maybe not the brass Mountain), perhaps because they're so numerous. Then too, Bowser produced superdetail kits just for this purpose, but Cary boilers can be detailed very nicely, even (and especially) ones that Bowser never reproduced.

You could be right on the contest of most toys, but I'd prefer neither of us win any too soon < g >.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Ray,

Art

In a message dated 1/26/2018 5:24:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Art,

Always good to see a nicely finished vintage model. Even better to know it runs well. I presume you painted and lettered it (?). My Famoco GG-1 kit came with a painted body, but a dull black as though it were an undercoat to be finished/painted by the modeler. I have yet to assemble either one of my Schrader GG-1's. They came bare bronze, as did my Schrader NH EP-4.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

All,

Thought I'd toss in a photo of my Famoco B-1 along with box and instructions. Runs well too.

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26681	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

When I was in Korea in 11953 I got a Pennline K-4 Pacific. It seemed to be a good runner. In 1953 all our track was hand laid! Took a lot of work to keep a steam engine on the track.

I got sucked into trading the K-4 for a set of Tenshodo FTs. I should have kept the K-4.

Between about 1980 and 2000 I built all the Bowser PRR kits. and I super detailed all of them. When I moved to Seattle in 2000 I had no place to run them so I sold them on eBay. I think I did pretty good.

I still don't really have anywhere to run.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:07 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Art,

To look at your Famoco B-1, I could never have guessed that it was ever in sad shape as it appeared (just from its looks) that you had built it from a kit. As rebuilding such models is part of your "thing," you've done fine job with this piece; you found a good place to concentrate on. No one could have known it was in as bad a shape as you've said. I've often looked for a good Penn Line GG1 but either I could never find one at the price I thought fair or any I did find wasn't worth the money. While there's often one or two at many train meets, I remember going to one train meet in particular one day about 30 years ago and saw no less than a dozen or so with not one of them being in decent enough shape for me to want to buy one. Can't understand how a modeler can allow their equipment to get into such poor shape. Still don't have a Penn Line GG1, but I came across a mint Varney GG1 kit a few years ago on eBay that I picked up, which as you know, is essentially the same with Sol Kramer (Varney) acquiring it from Penn Line in the '60's. I have a real nice Rivarrosi GG1, but I don't count that as being vintage.

With all this talk about electric locos, you might think this is my "thing," but actually building steam locos is my bag -- and superdetailing them where appropriate. In my estimation though, it's not appropriate to superdetail a Varney engine to the point where that would change it, and there's no question that would change it -- but that's only my opinion. A quality paint job does wonders for them. Likewise, I'm not sure if I would superdetail a John English steamer, and I have four (kits) but again this is just my way of looking at things. I have no problem with, and I enjoy, superdetailing any Bowser steamer, even earlier ones that would be considered vintage (except maybe not the brass Mountain), perhaps because they're so numerous. Then too, Bowser produced superdetail kits just for this purpose, but Cary boilers can be detailed very nicely, even (and especially) ones that Bowser never reproduced.

You could be right on the contest of most toys, but I'd prefer neither of us win any too soon < g >.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Ray,

Right. I painted and lettered it and should probably have painted it black instead of Brunswick green which shows up a little too brightly with the flash. Anyway, it was in sad shape when I got it years ago but got 'er shaped up (which is really my thing along with building the vintage kits). Sounds like you have some interesting GG1s. I have a Penn Line GG-1 kit which I am tempted to put together but may just keep it as a kit along with 12 other unbuilt Penn Line kits. In any case he who dies with the most toys wins--or so I've heard.

Art

In a message dated 1/26/2018 5:24:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Art,

Always good to see a nicely finished vintage model. Even better to know it runs well. I presume you painted and lettered it (?). My Famoco GG-1 kit came with a painted body, but a dull black as though it were an undercoat to be finished/painted by the modeler. I have yet to assemble either one of my Schrader GG-1's. They came bare bronze, as did my Schrader NH EP-4.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

All,

Thought I'd toss in a photo of my Famoco B-1 along with box and instructions. Runs well too.

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26682	From: anypaddler	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: Re: OT: Northeast Corridor

Bill Anderson wrote:
< My understanding of the circumstance is that the demise of the trolleys, street cars and rail passenger systems in this country was not a mistake but, rather by deliberate planning by Fred Firestone and Rodger Smith in order to increase their sale of motor busses and tires.

--------------------------------

It was called National City Lines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_City_Lines

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26683	From: luvprr2003	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Bob,

Always wondered who someone else might be who did all the Bowser steam kits. Sorry to hear you unloaded them. Over the years I've upgraded them with--among many things-- those Alco motors that were basically designed for "dropping into" most (but not all) of those locos. Made a huge difference in running quality for sure. Too bad Bowser didn't include the can motors on their other kits that they did on their final 0-6-0 product. Nice kit that.

I also used to do quite a bit of custom work on Bowser locos for those who could afford the price. That market is long gone of course. One basic thing I learned along the way was the fact that those suckers tended to be top heavy and would lean on the sharper curves and short out--and what to do about it. In a related matter I learned/realized that Bowser Challengers and Big Boys could not reverse and keep a tender or cars on the track without derailing them (except for very broad curves) because of inadequate draw bars.and the large swing. I did design a special draw bar for a gent that would handle that situation, but it was a lot of work.

Since retiring I only have space for a 4X8 layout so some of the longer locos will not handle those curves. I was able to get the 2 T-1s to do the 22 in curves, but even the very large in-house club layout here on campus won't handle the longer locos because of narrow bridge restrictions.

My next project is the 1939 Walthers gas electric I bought on eBay. Motor's a tad weak after 70-odd years and have already done several other more contemporary ones, but I love the nostalgia.

BYW I have 4 un-built Penn Line K-4 kts that I'd love to get a price for, but that ain't gonna be possible anymore I guess.

Art W

In a message dated 1/27/2018 10:18:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

When I was in Korea in 11953 I got a Pennline K-4 Pacific. It seemed to be a good runner. In 1953 all our track was hand laid! Took a lot of work to keep a steam engine on the track.

I got sucked into trading the K-4 for a set of Tenshodo FTs. I should have kept the K-4.

Between about 1980 and 2000 I built all the Bowser PRR kits. and I super detailed all of them. When I moved to Seattle in 2000 I had no place to run them so I sold them on eBay. I think I did pretty good.

I still don't really have anywhere to run.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:07 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Art,

To look at your Famoco B-1, I could never have guessed that it was ever in sad shape as it appeared (just from its looks) that you had built it from a kit. As rebuilding such models is part of your "thing," you've done fine job with this piece; you found a good place to concentrate on. No one could have known it was in as bad a shape as you've said. I've often looked for a good Penn Line GG1 but either I could never find one at the price I thought fair or any I did find wasn't worth the money. While there's often one or two at many train meets, I remember going to one train meet in particular one day about 30 years ago and saw no less than a dozen or so with not one of them being in decent enough shape for me to want to buy one. Can't understand how a modeler can allow their equipment to get into such poor shape. Still don't have a Penn Line GG1, but I came across a mint Varney GG1 kit a few years ago on eBay that I picked up, which as you know, is essentially the same with Sol Kramer (Varney) acquiring it from Penn Line in the '60's. I have a real nice Rivarrosi GG1, but I don't count that as being vintage.

With all this talk about electric locos, you might think this is my "thing," but actually building steam locos is my bag -- and superdetailing them where appropriate. In my estimation though, it's not appropriate to superdetail a Varney engine to the point where that would change it, and there's no question that would change it -- but that's only my opinion. A quality paint job does wonders for them. Likewise, I'm not sure if I would superdetail a John English steamer, and I have four (kits) but again this is just my way of looking at things. I have no problem with, and I enjoy, superdetailing any Bowser steamer, even earlier ones that would be considered vintage (except maybe not the brass Mountain), perhaps because they're so numerous. Then too, Bowser produced superdetail kits just for this purpose, but Cary boilers can be detailed very nicely, even (and especially) ones that Bowser never reproduced.

You could be right on the contest of most toys, but I'd prefer neither of us win any too soon < g >.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Ray,

Right. I painted and lettered it and should probably have painted it black instead of Brunswick green which shows up a little too brightly with the flash. Anyway, it was in sad shape when I got it years ago but got 'er shaped up (which is really my thing along with building the vintage kits). Sounds like you have some interesting GG1s. I have a Penn Line GG-1 kit which I am tempted to put together but may just keep it as a kit along with 12 other unbuilt Penn Line kits. In any case he who dies with the most toys wins--or so I've heard.

Art

In a message dated 1/26/2018 5:24:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Art,

Always good to see a nicely finished vintage model. Even better to know it runs well. I presume you painted and lettered it (?). My Famoco GG-1 kit came with a painted body, but a dull black as though it were an undercoat to be finished/painted by the modeler. I have yet to assemble either one of my Schrader GG-1's. They came bare bronze, as did my Schrader NH EP-4.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

All,

Thought I'd toss in a photo of my Famoco B-1 along with box and instructions. Runs well too.

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26684	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Art,

I now live in a 20X20 "Retirement Closet". No room for much of a layout so I have a 2X4 foot diorama for my trains. Mostly limited to 0-4-0 (Dockside, Booster) and small diesel switchers. I run the Varney Casey Jones back and forth on the 2' straight section.

The two local clubs don't allow my kind of trains so I have to be content with my diorama.

And I am thankful for eBay being a source for vintage HO items I prefer. The younger people in this hobby don't seem to have much interest in this vintage stuff.

Why did Bowser stop making the steam locos? was the restrictions on Zamac or the Pitman motor problem. I know Pitman gave them the tooling for the motors.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 10:18 AM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Bob,

Always wondered who someone else might be who did all the Bowser steam kits. Sorry to hear you unloaded them. Over the years I've upgraded them with--among many things-- those Alco motors that were basically designed for "dropping into" most (but not all) of those locos. Made a huge difference in running quality for sure. Too bad Bowser didn't include the can motors on their other kits that they did on their final 0-6-0 product. Nice kit that.

I also used to do quite a bit of custom work on Bowser locos for those who could afford the price. That market is long gone of course. One basic thing I learned along the way was the fact that those suckers tended to be top heavy and would lean on the sharper curves and short out--and what to do about it. In a related matter I learned/realized that Bowser Challengers and Big Boys could not reverse and keep a tender or cars on the track without derailing them (except for very broad curves) because of inadequate draw bars.and the large swing. I did design a special draw bar for a gent that would handle that situation, but it was a lot of work.

Since retiring I only have space for a 4X8 layout so some of the longer locos will not handle those curves. I was able to get the 2 T-1s to do the 22 in curves, but even the very large in-house club layout here on campus won't handle the longer locos because of narrow bridge restrictions.

My next project is the 1939 Walthers gas electric I bought on eBay. Motor's a tad weak after 70-odd years and have already done several other more contemporary ones, but I love the nostalgia.

BYW I have 4 un-built Penn Line K-4 kts that I'd love to get a price for, but that ain't gonna be possible anymore I guess.

Art W

In a message dated 1/27/2018 10:18:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

When I was in Korea in 11953 I got a Pennline K-4 Pacific. It seemed to be a good runner. In 1953 all our track was hand laid! Took a lot of work to keep a steam engine on the track.

I got sucked into trading the K-4 for a set of Tenshodo FTs. I should have kept the K-4.

Between about 1980 and 2000 I built all the Bowser PRR kits. and I super detailed all of them. When I moved to Seattle in 2000 I had no place to run them so I sold them on eBay. I think I did pretty good.

I still don't really have anywhere to run.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:07 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Art,

To look at your Famoco B-1, I could never have guessed that it was ever in sad shape as it appeared (just from its looks) that you had built it from a kit. As rebuilding such models is part of your "thing," you've done fine job with this piece; you found a good place to concentrate on. No one could have known it was in as bad a shape as you've said. I've often looked for a good Penn Line GG1 but either I could never find one at the price I thought fair or any I did find wasn't worth the money. While there's often one or two at many train meets, I remember going to one train meet in particular one day about 30 years ago and saw no less than a dozen or so with not one of them being in decent enough shape for me to want to buy one. Can't understand how a modeler can allow their equipment to get into such poor shape. Still don't have a Penn Line GG1, but I came across a mint Varney GG1 kit a few years ago on eBay that I picked up, which as you know, is essentially the same with Sol Kramer (Varney) acquiring it from Penn Line in the '60's. I have a real nice Rivarrosi GG1, but I don't count that as being vintage.

With all this talk about electric locos, you might think this is my "thing," but actually building steam locos is my bag -- and superdetailing them where appropriate. In my estimation though, it's not appropriate to superdetail a Varney engine to the point where that would change it, and there's no question that would change it -- but that's only my opinion. A quality paint job does wonders for them. Likewise, I'm not sure if I would superdetail a John English steamer, and I have four (kits) but again this is just my way of looking at things. I have no problem with, and I enjoy, superdetailing any Bowser steamer, even earlier ones that would be considered vintage (except maybe not the brass Mountain), perhaps because they're so numerous. Then too, Bowser produced superdetail kits just for this purpose, but Cary boilers can be detailed very nicely, even (and especially) ones that Bowser never reproduced.

You could be right on the contest of most toys, but I'd prefer neither of us win any too soon < g >.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Ray,

Right. I painted and lettered it and should probably have painted it black instead of Brunswick green which shows up a little too brightly with the flash. Anyway, it was in sad shape when I got it years ago but got 'er shaped up (which is really my thing along with building the vintage kits). Sounds like you have some interesting GG1s. I have a Penn Line GG-1 kit which I am tempted to put together but may just keep it as a kit along with 12 other unbuilt Penn Line kits. In any case he who dies with the most toys wins--or so I've heard.

Art

In a message dated 1/26/2018 5:24:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Art,

Always good to see a nicely finished vintage model. Even better to know it runs well. I presume you painted and lettered it (?). My Famoco GG-1 kit came with a painted body, but a dull black as though it were an undercoat to be finished/painted by the modeler. I have yet to assemble either one of my Schrader GG-1's. They came bare bronze, as did my Schrader NH EP-4.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

All,

Thought I'd toss in a photo of my Famoco B-1 along with box and instructions. Runs well too.

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26685	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Penn Line and Bowser were always good runners -- every one of them, as far as I know. Too bad you had no where to run them but at least you got your enjoyment out of them in building and superdetailing them. Probably should have kept the one you traded for the Tenshodo FT's. While Tenshodo doesn't operate badly for a Japanese import, most of the early American made models ran much better. As long as you feel you made out well in selling the Bowser steamers, that's all that counts.

While I knew a few older guys back in the '50's who built hand-laid rail layouts, I remember buying Atlas Flex Track even back then,but brass was the only thing available -- and in Code 100 only -- BUT, it came with fiber ties. I was too young (14 in 1953) to know how to hand lay track very well so I took the easy route. I can imagine the turnouts must have been a bear to assemble. I tried my hand at hand laying track and still have a spiker into which you place four spikes, two for each rail. It was made by Rail Chief and was called an Automatic Track Layer. Had three grooved (to accept rail) lugs -- two lugs on one rail and one lug on the opposite rail that was laid over the two rails, straddling the track, and in doing so it kept the rails in gauge. On two of the lugs (one lug on each side) there were two holes into which the spikes were dropped, with each hole being on opposite sides of the rail. A second tool (part of this track layer) with two prongs was used to push home the spikes that had been put into these holes. Made laying track a lot easier, except when it came time to lay the turnout rails. I still have that Rail Chief tool today but didn't use it much; still have a load of spikes too.

I remember True Scale offered trackwork even back then, mounted on True Scale wood roadbed milled to create ties. Nice stuff but out of reach for a kid. Model Engineering Works offered a track gauge too. Varney, Wathers and Mantua offered them also. .

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 27, 2018 10:38 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

When I was in Korea in 11953 I got a Pennline K-4 Pacific. It seemed to be a good runner. In 1953 all our track was hand laid! Took a lot of work to keep a steam engine on the track.

I got sucked into trading the K-4 for a set of Tenshodo FTs. I should have kept the K-4.

I still don't really have anywhere to run.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:07 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Art,

To look at your Famoco B-1, I could never have guessed that it was ever in sad shape as it appeared (just from its looks) that you had built it from a kit. As rebuilding such models is part of your "thing," you've done fine job with this piece; you found a good place to concentrate on. No one could have known it was in as bad a shape as you've said. I've often looked for a good Penn Line GG1 but either I could never find one at the price I thought fair or any I did find wasn't worth the money. While there's often one or two at many train meets, I remember going to one train meet in particular one day about 30 years ago and saw no less than a dozen or so with not one of them being in decent enough shape for me to want to buy one. Can't understand how a modeler can allow their equipment to get into such poor shape. Still don't have a Penn Line GG1, but I came across a mint Varney GG1 kit a few years ago on eBay that I picked up, which as you know, is essentially the same with Sol Kramer (Varney) acquiring it from Penn Line in the '60's. I have a real nice Rivarrosi GG1, but I don't count that as being vintage.

With all this talk about electric locos, you might think this is my "thing," but actually building steam locos is my bag -- and superdetailing them where appropriate. In my estimation though, it's not appropriate to superdetail a Varney engine to the point where that would change it, and there's no question that would change it -- but that's only my opinion. A quality paint job does wonders for them. Likewise, I'm not sure if I would superdetail a John English steamer, and I have four (kits) but again this is just my way of looking at things. I have no problem with, and I enjoy, superdetailing any Bowser steamer, even earlier ones that would be considered vintage (except maybe not the brass Mountain), perhaps because they're so numerous. Then too, Bowser produced superdetail kits just for this purpose, but Cary boilers can be detailed very nicely, even (and especially) ones that Bowser never reproduced.

You could be right on the contest of most toys, but I'd prefer neither of us win any too soon < g >.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Ray,

Right. I painted and lettered it and should probably have painted it black instead of Brunswick green which shows up a little too brightly with the flash. Anyway, it was in sad shape when I got it years ago but got 'er shaped up (which is really my thing along with building the vintage kits). Sounds like you have some interesting GG1s. I have a Penn Line GG-1 kit which I am tempted to put together but may just keep it as a kit along with 12 other unbuilt Penn Line kits. In any case he who dies with the most toys wins--or so I've heard.

Art

In a message dated 1/26/2018 5:24:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Art,

Always good to see a nicely finished vintage model. Even better to know it runs well. I presume you painted and lettered it (?). My Famoco GG-1 kit came with a painted body, but a dull black as though it were an undercoat to be finished/painted by the modeler. I have yet to assemble either one of my Schrader GG-1's. They came bare bronze, as did my Schrader NH EP-4.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

All,

Thought I'd toss in a photo of my Famoco B-1 along with box and instructions. Runs well too.

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26686	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

What we used in the late 40's, early 50's was the Tru Scale milled roadbed with ties. You are right about turnouts. The were a KIT of track parts. They seemed to take forever to get right. They seemed to work best with diesels of steamers without a lead truck!

The Tenshodo FTs seemed to be a copy of the Varney drive. But with brass shells. I go them in 1954 and by the early 60's the truck sideframes were gone. No American side frames would fit. Then by 1970 the rest of the white metal in the drive system was gone. I probably should have tried to rebuild them with Varney parts.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:44 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Penn Line and Bowser were always good runners -- every one of them, as far as I know. Too bad you had no where to run them but at least you got your enjoyment out of them in building and superdetailing them. Probably should have kept the one you traded for the Tenshodo FT's. While Tenshodo doesn't operate badly for a Japanese import, most of the early American made models ran much better. As long as you feel you made out well in selling the Bowser steamers, that's all that counts.

While I knew a few older guys back in the '50's who built hand-laid rail layouts, I remember buying Atlas Flex Track even back then,but brass was the only thing available -- and in Code 100 only -- BUT, it came with fiber ties. I was too young (14 in 1953) to know how to hand lay track very well so I took the easy route. I can imagine the turnouts must have been a bear to assemble. I tried my hand at hand laying track and still have a spiker into which you place four spikes, two for each rail. It was made by Rail Chief and was called an Automatic Track Layer. Had three grooved (to accept rail) lugs -- two lugs on one rail and one lug on the opposite rail that was laid over the two rails, straddling the track, and in doing so it kept the rails in gauge. On two of the lugs (one lug on each side) there were two holes into which the spikes were dropped, with each hole being on opposite sides of the rail. A second tool (part of this track layer) with two prongs was used to push home the spikes that had been put into these holes. Made laying track a lot easier, except when it came time to lay the turnout rails. I still have that Rail Chief tool today but didn't use it much; still have a load of spikes too.

I remember True Scale offered trackwork even back then, mounted on True Scale wood roadbed milled to create ties. Nice stuff but out of reach for a kid. Model Engineering Works offered a track gauge too. Varney, Wathers and Mantua offered them also. .

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 27, 2018 10:38 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

When I was in Korea in 11953 I got a Pennline K-4 Pacific. It seemed to be a good runner. In 1953 all our track was hand laid! Took a lot of work to keep a steam engine on the track.

I got sucked into trading the K-4 for a set of Tenshodo FTs. I should have kept the K-4.

Between about 1980 and 2000 I built all the Bowser PRR kits. and I super detailed all of them. When I moved to Seattle in 2000 I had no place to run them so I sold them on eBay. I think I did pretty good.

I still don't really have anywhere to run.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 2:07 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Art,

To look at your Famoco B-1, I could never have guessed that it was ever in sad shape as it appeared (just from its looks) that you had built it from a kit. As rebuilding such models is part of your "thing," you've done fine job with this piece; you found a good place to concentrate on. No one could have known it was in as bad a shape as you've said. I've often looked for a good Penn Line GG1 but either I could never find one at the price I thought fair or any I did find wasn't worth the money. While there's often one or two at many train meets, I remember going to one train meet in particular one day about 30 years ago and saw no less than a dozen or so with not one of them being in decent enough shape for me to want to buy one.. Can't understand how a modeler can allow their equipment to get into such poor shape. Still don't have a Penn Line GG1, but I came across a mint Varney GG1 kit a few years ago on eBay that I picked up, which as you know, is essentially the same with Sol Kramer (Varney) acquiring it from Penn Line in the '60's. I have a real nice Rivarrosi GG1, but I don't count that as being vintage.

With all this talk about electric locos, you might think this is my "thing," but actually building steam locos is my bag -- and superdetailing them where appropriate. In my estimation though, it's not appropriate to superdetail a Varney engine to the point where that would change it, and there's no question that would change it -- but that's only my opinion. A quality paint job does wonders for them. Likewise, I'm not sure if I would superdetail a John English steamer, and I have four (kits) but again this is just my way of looking at things. I have no problem with, and I enjoy, superdetailing any Bowser steamer, even earlier ones that would be considered vintage (except maybe not the brass Mountain), perhaps because they're so numerous. Then too, Bowser produced superdetail kits just for this purpose, but Cary boilers can be detailed very nicely, even (and especially) ones that Bowser never reproduced.

You could be right on the contest of most toys, but I'd prefer neither of us win any too soon < g >.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Ray,

Right. I painted and lettered it and should probably have painted it black instead of Brunswick green which shows up a little too brightly with the flash. Anyway, it was in sad shape when I got it years ago but got 'er shaped up (which is really my thing along with building the vintage kits). Sounds like you have some interesting GG1s. I have a Penn Line GG-1 kit which I am tempted to put together but may just keep it as a kit along with 12 other unbuilt Penn Line kits. In any case he who dies with the most toys wins--or so I've heard.

Art

In a message dated 1/26/2018 5:24:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Art,

Always good to see a nicely finished vintage model. Even better to know it runs well. I presume you painted and lettered it (?). My Famoco GG-1 kit came with a painted body, but a dull black as though it were an undercoat to be finished/painted by the modeler. I have yet to assemble either one of my Schrader GG-1's. They came bare bronze, as did my Schrader NH EP-4.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 26, 2018 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

All,

Thought I'd toss in a photo of my Famoco B-1 along with box and instructions. Runs well too.

Art W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26687	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Thanks, Ray W., For confirming my ID of the Super Scale tripower electric locomotive model. And thanks for reminding me where the "ad" for it appeared, in the Model Railway Equipment catalog for 1950. Now, if only we could find a few of those kits or models! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26688	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: International & PFM Tenshodo FT's

Attachments :

Hi Bob M.,and All,

Your mention of your Tenshodo FT's reminded me of a partially complete A-B-B-A set I purchased early last summer. Actually, I believe they are the early versions imported by International - as the B units contain the cast "prime mover" lead weight.

International seems to have discontinued importing them when PFM started featuring them in their own catalog and ads. I am not sure, but I do not believe PFM versions had the prime mover weights. Is anyone able to confirm this theory?

I have not yet tried it, but don't think there should be a problem using the Varney side frames where needed - or in fact substituting an early complete Varney power truck if necessary. Just that individual power truck parts cannot be mixed, due to metrics and possibly other dimensions being off a tiny bit. It certainly seems that the Varney components were copied by the Japanese craftsman.

I haven't had yet time to work on these but will try to pull them out the next week or so and see what I can do. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26689	From: trainliker	Date: 1/27/2018
Subject: Re: International & PFM Tenshodo FT's

Attachments :

I have had at least half a dozen of the Tenshodo (imported by PFM) FT’s and they all had the prime mover weights. Just sold an unpainted A, B set in unassembled kit form a few months ago.

Also, not all the “prime mover” weights were the same. Ones for the A units were solid. For the B units, hollow and not as heavy. Looked the same unless you looked at the bottom – or, of course, picked them up.

The Tenshodo part numbers for the weights (from their kit assembly drawing) are:

#2127 for the A unit

#2128 for the B unit

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 8:10 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] International & PFM Tenshodo FT's

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26690	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/28/2018
Subject: Re: OT: Northeast Corridor

I found this on operating streetcar systems.

It was enlightening to me to see how much streetcar operation there is today.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 9:45 AM

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: OT: Northeast Corridor

Bill Anderson wrote:
< My understanding of the circumstance is that the demise of the trolleys, street cars and rail passenger systems in this country was not a mistake but, rather by deliberate planning by Fred Firestone and Rodger Smith in order to increase their sale of motor busses and tires.

--------------------------------

It was called National City Lines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_City_Lines

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26691	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/28/2018
Subject: Re: OT: Northeast Corridor

Thanks for finding and sharing this link. In opening it, I like the Peter Witt streetcar on the left. I notice not all states are listed there to go to, but the listing still gives a good representative of many styles. Used to enjoy riding the trolley cars in New York City, from Manhattan into the Bronx. One has to travel on a street car to be able to appreciate the ride. Hard to explain, but it's not like riding a bus. Then too, the "atmosphere" adds to it.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 28, 2018 3:28 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: OT: Northeast Corridor

I found this on operating streetcar systems.

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/vintagetrolley.htm

It was enlightening to me to see how much streetcar operation there is today.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 9:45 AM

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: OT: Northeast Corridor

Bill Anderson wrote:
< My understanding of the circumstance is that the demise of the trolleys, street cars and rail passenger systems in this country was not a mistake but, rather by deliberate planning by Fred Firestone and Rodger Smith in order to increase their sale of motor busses and tires.

--------------------------------

It was called National City Lines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_City_Lines

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26692	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 1/28/2018
Subject: Re: Streetcar Models of Manhattan & Bronx, NYC

Attachments :

Ray W., and All,

Ray, Your mention of riding the street cars from Manhattan into the Bronx reminded me of several interesting models of the lightweight, modern cars of New York's famed Third Avenue Railway System. Lacking funds to buy PCC's, TARS built a lightweight fleet, some with aluminum bodies with assistance from Alcoa Aluminum, and all bearing the distinctive triple sash side windows. (New York City banned the use of overhead trolley wires in Manhattan so street car companies used an underground conduit system accessed through a center slot between the rails.)

Following cessation of operations in the Bronx and Manhattan after 1948, a number of the still modern, well-maintained lightweight cars were sent to Vienna, Austria; San Paulo, Brazil and Mumbai, India where they were well regarded and had long operational lives. A number have been preserved including at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine, at Branford in East Haven, CT. and in Brazil.

Brass models were imported from Japan by Bert Sas of Model Tramway Systems, later known as Fairfield Models. In 1959, 200 TARS double truck cars #626-685, with roof walk and trolley polls (body only) were imported. While some may be found with a Japanese drive system, many are found motorized with Andeco trucks manufactured in Trenton, NJ.

In 1965, Sas imported models of the ultimate light weight TARS trolleys known as "Huffliners." These models were imported as powered models, but lack trolley poles as the prototypes were conduit cars. Only 150 each of the fluted side, and the riveted side models were manufactured.

Attached find two photographs of the Model Tramway TARS models which I purchased several years ago. The unpainted model, with trolley polls represents the #626-685 cars, while the two conduit cars painted in a private road name represent both the riveted side (center) and fluted side (front) Huffliners.

An interesting self published history of Bert Sas and Model Tramways/Fairfield Models may be found on hoseeker.org

W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26693	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/28/2018
Subject: Re: International & PFM Tenshodo FT's

Hi Chuck K., Thanks for the information on the Tenshodo FT's and clearing up my misconception on the availability of prime mover weights in the PFM imports. I had a longer, more detailed response to you and all this morning, but it seems to have been lost in Yahoo limbo, but will wait a bit more before reposting. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26694	From: trainliker	Date: 1/28/2018
Subject: Re: International & PFM Tenshodo FT's

Attachments :

Attached (I hope) is a photo of the Tenshodo FT assembly instruction sheet and a couple of other photos showing the weights from the eBay auction I had for it awhile back.

If anybody is curious, the A and B unit pair pictured, with very good condition original boxes, sold for $147.50.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2018 4:28 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] International & PFM Tenshodo FT's

Posted by: the_plainsman@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26695	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 1/29/2018
Subject: Re: Streetcar Models of Manhattan & Bronx, NYC

W. Jay,

Yes, I believe the overhead trolley wire ban was restricted to Manhatten, and then, only to downtown Manhattan. I primarily rode the Union Railway 181st Street crosstown route in Manhattan which used the 181st Street (Washington Heights) Bridge to cross into the Bronx and continue east on Tremont Avenue after turning north a few blocks on University Avenue. These trolley cars had trolley poles to catch the power from overhead wires, even in Manhattan I believe, unless they were dual-mode and switched to a conduit system when they were in that boro. It wouldn't seem practical though, but I just can't recall whether I saw overhead wire on that line in Manhattan.

I enjoyed seeing the photos of your TARS (Third Avenue Railway System) models, and while I'm not a huge traction fan, I still appreciate them. I don't have any brass streetcar models, although I do have a couple of die cast Bowser cars (a Brill and a Jewett) and a Birney which I think was made by Mantua (not sure -- came factory painted, and lettered for "Green Lines"). Thanks for filling in the disposition of those lightweight cars that were sent abroad and for the info of Seashore (Maine) and Branford (Connecticut) museums having some.

New York City used trolley car transportation extensively, including in all five boros of the city (with Staten Island using trackless trolleys). As for Manhattan, throughout the first half of the last century there were no fewer than 30 north-south lines (routes) on the avenues and no fewer than 32 cross-town lines, with NY Railway owning 30 of these 62 routes -- but not all at one time. Some lines were discontinued before WWI while others were eliminated during WWI. Others were added in the interum. Most of them were removed in the 1930's.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: yahoogroups <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 28, 2018 7:08 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Streetcar Models of Manhattan & Bronx, NYC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26696	From: louis niederlander	Date: 1/29/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Just curious, are they. DCC. only?We have a club in Bedford Ohio that is DC.

Louis N

The two local clubs don't allow my kind of trains so I have to be content with my diorama.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26697	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 1/29/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

These two clubs are DCC only plus Code 83 track. They tell my vintage locomotives won't stay on the rack because of the flanges.

Bob Macklin
K5MYJ
Seattle, Wa.
"Real Radios Glow In The Dark"

----- Original Message -----

From: louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 5:21 PM

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Famoco B-1 photo attached

Just curious, are they. DCC. only?We have a club in Bedford Ohio that is DC.

Louis N

The two local clubs don't allow my kind of trains so I have to be content with my diorama.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26698	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/30/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Attachments :

All this talk of the B-1 and I had to go dig mine out. Pic isn't as good as I'd like but the flash made too much glare. Someday I'll oil it up and see how it runs. Maybe.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 1/23/18, jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2018, 11:01 AM

I just picked up a Famoco B-1 in the box,
with a bonus! There was also a Castor Plastics B-1 in with
it. I posted pictures somewhere in the groups photo
section. (I didn't see them in my folder or at the
top, but it may take time for them to show up.) The box
has some very neat artwork. I already had some junk parts,
so I should be able to make a coupled pair,
someday.

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976 --
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp #yiv0962255976hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp #yiv0962255976ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc #yiv0962255976hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc .yiv0962255976ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span
.yiv0962255976underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p
span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976file-title a, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:active, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:hover, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:active,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0962255976 input, #yiv0962255976 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0962255976
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0962255976logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-msg
p#yiv0962255976attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco
#yiv0962255976reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0962255976

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26699	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 1/31/2018
Subject: Re: International & PFM Tenshodo FT's

Attachments :

Hi Chuck K., and All,

Thank you for posting a copy of the Tenshodo FT instructions sheet. When I studied them last night, they looked a bit familiar. I then checked out the 1954 International Models catalog on the hoseeker website and found they used the same illustrations there. Copy attached.

Though the Tenshodo FT nose profile is a bit off and high, it always appealed to me as more of an artistic impression. They we're also the first widely available mass produced HO scale models of this significant diesel locomotive, being only proceeded by the heavy, sand cast, limited production cast bronze models made by Dallas and a few others in the 1940s, (which we, together with Jim Heckard discussed hear a number of years ago).

Both International and PFM produced factory decorated units, but PFM seemed to concentrate on Pennsy and the western roads. International listed a set painted in the Erie's black with yellow trim, but have never seen one.

W Jay W.
--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 1/28/18, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] International & PFM Tenshodo FT's
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, January 28, 2018, 8:28 PM

Attached (I hope) is a photo
of the Tenshodo FT assembly instruction sheet and a couple
of other photos showing the weights from the eBay auction I
had for it awhile back. If anybody is curious, the A
and B unit pair pictured, with very good condition original
boxes, sold for $147.50. Charles E. “Chuck”
Kinzer Sent from Mail
for Windows 10
From:
the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, January
28, 2018 4:28 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] International
& PFM Tenshodo FT's Hi Chuck K., Thanks for the
information on the Tenshodo FT's and clearing up my
misconception on the availability of prime mover weights in
the PFM imports. I had a longer, more detailed response to
you and all this morning, but it seems to have been lost in
Yahoo limbo, but will wait a bit more before reposting. W.
Jay W.Posted by:
the_plainsman@...

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942 --
#yiv8349162942ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mkp #yiv8349162942hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mkp #yiv8349162942ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mkp .yiv8349162942ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mkp .yiv8349162942ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mkp .yiv8349162942ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8349162942ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8349162942ygrp-lc #yiv8349162942hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8349162942ygrp-lc .yiv8349162942ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942activity span
.yiv8349162942underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8349162942 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8349162942 dd.yiv8349162942last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8349162942 dd.yiv8349162942last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8349162942 dd.yiv8349162942last p
span.yiv8349162942yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8349162942 div.yiv8349162942attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8349162942 div.yiv8349162942attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8349162942 div.yiv8349162942file-title a, #yiv8349162942
div.yiv8349162942file-title a:active, #yiv8349162942
div.yiv8349162942file-title a:hover, #yiv8349162942
div.yiv8349162942file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8349162942 div.yiv8349162942photo-title a,
#yiv8349162942 div.yiv8349162942photo-title a:active,
#yiv8349162942 div.yiv8349162942photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8349162942 div.yiv8349162942photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8349162942 div#yiv8349162942ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8349162942ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8349162942yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8349162942 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8349162942 .yiv8349162942replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8349162942 input, #yiv8349162942 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8349162942
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8349162942logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-msg
p#yiv8349162942attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-reco
#yiv8349162942reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-sponsor #yiv8349162942ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-sponsor #yiv8349162942ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-sponsor #yiv8349162942ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8349162942 #yiv8349162942ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8349162942

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26700	From: luvprr2003	Date: 1/31/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Attachments :

Ken,

Looks good--Alco more contemporary than the original Famco and without the rivets all over the side.

Art W

In a message dated 1/30/2018 8:56:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

All this talk of the B-1 and I had to go dig mine out. Pic isn't as good as I'd like but the flash made too much glare. Someday I'll oil it up and see how it runs. Maybe.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/23/18, jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2018, 11:01 AM

I just picked up a Famoco B-1 in the box,
with a bonus! There was also a Castor Plastics B-1 in with
it. I posted pictures somewhere in the groups photo
section. (I didn't see them in my folder or at the
top, but it may take time for them to show up.) The box
has some very neat artwork. I already had some junk parts,
so I should be able to make a coupled pair,
someday.

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976 --
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp #yiv0962255976hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp #yiv0962255976ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc #yiv0962255976hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc .yiv0962255976ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span
.yiv0962255976underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p
span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976file-title a, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:active, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:hover, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:active,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0962255976 input, #yiv0962255976 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0962255976
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0962255976logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-msg
p#yiv0962255976attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco
#yiv0962255976reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0962255976

------------------------------------
Posted by: Ken Starcher <ohiocanal@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com
vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

2 Attached Images

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26701	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/31/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Should it have rivets? They are there, faint. You can see them best along side the windows.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 1/31/18, luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 31, 2018, 9:27 AM

Ken,

Looks good--Alco more contemporary
than the original Famco and without the rivets all over the
side.

Art W

In a message dated 1/30/2018 8:56:36 PM Eastern Standard
Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

All this talk of the B-1 and I had to go dig mine out. Pic
isn't as good as I'd like but the flash made too
much glare. Someday I'll oil it up and see how it runs.
Maybe.

Ken A Starcher
Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/23/18, jbark76@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Subject:
[vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2018, 11:01 AM

I just picked up a Famoco B-1 in the box,
with a bonus! There was also a Castor
Plastics B-1 in with
it. I posted
pictures somewhere in the groups photo

section. (I didn't see them in my folder or at the
top, but it may take time for them to show
up.) The box
has some very neat
artwork. I already had some junk parts,

so I should be able to make a coupled pair,

someday.

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976 --

#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid
#d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px

0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp hr {

border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp
#yiv0962255976hd {

color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp #yiv0962255976ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp
.yiv0962255976ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad p {

margin:0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad a {

color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc {

font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc #yiv0962255976hd {

margin:10px

0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc .yiv0962255976ad {

margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976actions {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity {

background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity span {

font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span
a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity span span {

color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span

.yiv0962255976underline {

text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach {

clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976attach label {

display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach label a
{
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976bold {

font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976bold a {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p a {

font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p span
{

margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976
dd.yiv0962255976last p

span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {

margin-right:0;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table
{
width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976file-title a,
#yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title
a:active, #yiv0962255976

div.yiv0962255976file-title a:hover, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title
a,
#yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:active,

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title
a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976
div#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg

#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0
0;}

#yiv0962255976 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div div
{
border:1px solid

#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976photos div label {

color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976reco-category {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976reco-desc {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976replbq {

margin:4px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-actbar div a:first-child
{
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg {

font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg table
{
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg select,

#yiv0962255976 input, #yiv0962255976 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg pre,
#yiv0962255976
code {

font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg * {

line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0962255976logo
{
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a {

font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-msg

p#yiv0962255976attach-count span {

color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco
#yiv0962255976reco-head {

color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov

li a {

font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ov
li {

font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov

ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-text {

font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text p {

margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text tt {

font-size:120%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-vital ul li:last-child
{
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0962255976

------------------------------------
Posted by: Ken Starcher <ohiocanal@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

(Yahoo! ID required)

vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

2 Attached Images

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379 --
#yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp #yiv8516047379hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp #yiv8516047379ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc #yiv8516047379hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc .yiv8516047379ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span
.yiv8516047379underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p
span.yiv8516047379yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379file-title a, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:active, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:hover, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:active,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div#yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8516047379ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8516047379yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8516047379 input, #yiv8516047379 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8516047379
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8516047379logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-msg
p#yiv8516047379attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-reco
#yiv8516047379reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8516047379

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26702	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/31/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

I understood that only "Old Rivets" -- #4800 (the first GG1 to be produced) had the rivets, and was so nicknamed that because of this distinction.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/31/2018 5:01:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Should it have rivets? They are there, faint. You can see them best along side the windows.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/31/18, luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 31, 2018, 9:27 AM

Ken,

Looks good--Alco more contemporary
than the original Famco and without the rivets all over the
side.

Art W

In a message dated 1/30/2018 8:56:36 PM Eastern Standard
Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

All this talk of the B-1 and I had to go dig mine out. Pic
isn't as good as I'd like but the flash made too
much glare. Someday I'll oil it up and see how it runs.
Maybe.

Ken A Starcher
Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/23/18, jbark76@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Subject:
[vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2018, 11:01 AM

I just picked up a Famoco B-1 in the box,
with a bonus! There was also a Castor
Plastics B-1 in with
it. I posted
pictures somewhere in the groups photo

section. (I didn't see them in my folder or at the
top, but it may take time for them to show
up.) The box
has some very neat
artwork. I already had some junk parts,

so I should be able to make a coupled pair,

someday.

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976 --

#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid
#d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px

0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp hr {

border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp
#yiv0962255976hd {

color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp #yiv0962255976ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp
.yiv0962255976ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad p {

margin:0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad a {

color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc {

font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc #yiv0962255976hd {

margin:10px

0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc .yiv0962255976ad {

margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976actions {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity {

background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity span {

font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span
a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity span span {

color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span

.yiv0962255976underline {

text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach {

clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976attach label {

display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach label a
{
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976bold {

font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976bold a {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p a {

font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p span
{

margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976
dd.yiv0962255976last p

span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {

margin-right:0;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table
{
width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976file-title a,
#yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title
a:active, #yiv0962255976

div.yiv0962255976file-title a:hover, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title
a,
#yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:active,

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title
a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976
div#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg

#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0
0;}

#yiv0962255976 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div div
{
border:1px solid

#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976photos div label {

color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976reco-category {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976reco-desc {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976replbq {

margin:4px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-actbar div a:first-child
{
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg {

font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg table
{
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg select,

#yiv0962255976 input, #yiv0962255976 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg pre,
#yiv0962255976
code {

font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg * {

line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0962255976logo
{
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a {

font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-msg

p#yiv0962255976attach-count span {

color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco
#yiv0962255976reco-head {

color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov

li a {

font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ov
li {

font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov

ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-text {

font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text p {

margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text tt {

font-size:120%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-vital ul li:last-child
{
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0962255976

------------------------------------
Posted by: Ken Starcher <ohiocanal@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

(Yahoo! ID required)

vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

2 Attached Images

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379 --
#yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp #yiv8516047379hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp #yiv8516047379ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc #yiv8516047379hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc .yiv8516047379ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span
.yiv8516047379underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p
span.yiv8516047379yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379file-title a, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:active, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:hover, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:active,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div#yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8516047379ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8516047379yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8516047379 input, #yiv8516047379 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8516047379
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8516047379logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-msg
p#yiv8516047379attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-reco
#yiv8516047379reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8516047379

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26703	From: luvprr2003	Date: 1/31/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

That was true for the GG1, but other Pennsy locos did not necessarily follow that construction. My vintage B-1 has pronounced rivets galore and made it difficult to decal.

Art W

In a message dated 1/31/2018 7:24:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I understood that only "Old Rivets" -- #4800 (the first GG1 to be produced) had the rivets, and was so nicknamed that because of this distinction.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/31/2018 5:01:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Should it have rivets? They are there, faint. You can see them best along side the windows.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/31/18, luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 31, 2018, 9:27 AM

Ken,

Looks good--Alco more contemporary
than the original Famco and without the rivets all over the
side.

Art W

In a message dated 1/30/2018 8:56:36 PM Eastern Standard
Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

All this talk of the B-1 and I had to go dig mine out. Pic
isn't as good as I'd like but the flash made too
much glare. Someday I'll oil it up and see how it runs.
Maybe.

Ken A Starcher
Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/23/18, jbark76@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Subject:
[vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2018, 11:01 AM

I just picked up a Famoco B-1 in the box,
with a bonus! There was also a Castor
Plastics B-1 in with
it. I posted
pictures somewhere in the groups photo

section. (I didn't see them in my folder or at the
top, but it may take time for them to show
up.) The box
has some very neat
artwork. I already had some junk parts,

so I should be able to make a coupled pair,

someday.

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976 --

#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid
#d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px

0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp hr {

border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp
#yiv0962255976hd {

color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp #yiv0962255976ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp
.yiv0962255976ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad p {

margin:0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad a {

color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc {

font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc #yiv0962255976hd {

margin:10px

0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc .yiv0962255976ad {

margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976actions {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity {

background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity span {

font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span
a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity span span {

color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span

.yiv0962255976underline {

text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach {

clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976attach label {

display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach label a
{
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976bold {

font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976bold a {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p a {

font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p span
{

margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976
dd.yiv0962255976last p

span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {

margin-right:0;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table
{
width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976file-title a,
#yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title
a:active, #yiv0962255976

div.yiv0962255976file-title a:hover, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title
a,
#yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:active,

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title
a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976
div#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg

#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0
0;}

#yiv0962255976 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div div
{
border:1px solid

#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976photos div label {

color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976reco-category {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976reco-desc {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976replbq {

margin:4px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-actbar div a:first-child
{
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg {

font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg table
{
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg select,

#yiv0962255976 input, #yiv0962255976 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg pre,
#yiv0962255976
code {

font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg * {

line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0962255976logo
{
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a {

font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-msg

p#yiv0962255976attach-count span {

color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco
#yiv0962255976reco-head {

color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov

li a {

font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ov
li {

font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov

ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-text {

font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text p {

margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text tt {

font-size:120%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-vital ul li:last-child
{
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0962255976

------------------------------------
Posted by: Ken Starcher <ohiocanal@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

(Yahoo! ID required)

vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

2 Attached Images

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379 --
#yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp #yiv8516047379hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp #yiv8516047379ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc #yiv8516047379hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc .yiv8516047379ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span
.yiv8516047379underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p
span.yiv8516047379yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379file-title a, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:active, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:hover, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:active,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div#yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8516047379ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8516047379yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8516047379 input, #yiv8516047379 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8516047379
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8516047379logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-msg
p#yiv8516047379attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-reco
#yiv8516047379reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8516047379

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26704	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/31/2018
Subject: Re: Famoco B-1

Yes, exactly -- true only for GG1's. I thought that's what we were talking about -- GG-1's (Famoco) -- when Ken asked you if they should have rivets, in reply to your message saying Alco (Models, Inc.) being more contemporary than the original "Famco" (Famoco) and without rivets all over the sides. There's no other reference here pertaining to GG-1's or B-1's and only going back a few more messages just now reminded me what the original topic was all about. We had also discussed Famoco GG-1's -- either in this same thread or another similar thread. Without any further reference on a particular Alco or Famoco model in these current messages, I guess I got on the wrong 'track' < g >. I also thought you were referring to an Alco models GG-1. Sorry I wasn't able to follow the thread.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/31/2018 8:58:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

That was true for the GG1, but other Pennsy locos did not necessarily follow that construction. My vintage B-1 has pronounced rivets galore and made it difficult to decal.

Art W

In a message dated 1/31/2018 7:24:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I understood that only "Old Rivets" -- #4800 (the first GG1 to be produced) had the rivets, and was so nicknamed that because of this distinction.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/31/2018 5:01:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Should it have rivets? They are there, faint. You can see them best along side the windows.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/31/18, luvprr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 31, 2018, 9:27 AM

Ken,

Looks good--Alco more contemporary
than the original Famco and without the rivets all over the
side.

Art W

In a message dated 1/30/2018 8:56:36 PM Eastern Standard
Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

All this talk of the B-1 and I had to go dig mine out. Pic
isn't as good as I'd like but the flash made too
much glare. Someday I'll oil it up and see how it runs.
Maybe.

Ken A Starcher
Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/23/18, jbark76@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Subject:
[vintageHO] Famoco B-1
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2018, 11:01 AM

I just picked up a Famoco B-1 in the box,
with a bonus! There was also a Castor
Plastics B-1 in with
it. I posted
pictures somewhere in the groups photo

section. (I didn't see them in my folder or at the
top, but it may take time for them to show
up.) The box
has some very neat
artwork. I already had some junk par ts,

so I should be able to make a coupled pair,

someday.

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976 --

#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid
#d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px

0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp hr {

border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp
#yiv0962255976hd {

color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp #yiv0962255976ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp
.yiv0962255976ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad p {

margin:0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mkp .yiv0962255976ad a {

color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc {

font-family:A rial;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc #yiv0962255976hd {

margin:10px

0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0962255976ygrp-lc .yiv0962255976ad {

margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976actions {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity {

background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity span {

font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity span
a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976activity span span {

color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976activity spa n

.yiv0962255976underline {

text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach {

clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976attach label {

display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976attach label a
{
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976bold {

font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976bold a {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p a {

font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 dd.yiv0962255976last p span
{

margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;f ont-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976
dd.yiv0962255976last p

span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {

margin-right:0;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976attach-table
{
width:400px;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976file-title a,
#yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title
a:active, #yiv0962255976

div.yiv0962255976file-title a:hover, #yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title
a,
#yiv0962255976
div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:active,

#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0962255976 div.yiv0962255976photo-title
a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976
div#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg

#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0962255976yshortcuts {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight :normal;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0962255976
.yiv0962255976MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0
0;}

#yiv0962255976 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976photos div div
{
border:1px solid

#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976photos div label {

color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976reco-category {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976reco-desc {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0962255976 .yiv0962255976replbq {

margin:4px;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-actbar div a:first-child
{
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg {

font-size:13px;font-family:A rial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg table
{
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg select,

#yiv0962255976 input, #yiv0962255976 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg pre,
#yiv0962255976
code {

font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg * {

line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0962255976logo
{
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-msg p a {

font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-msg

p#yiv0962255976attach-count span {

color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco
#yiv0962255976reco-head {

color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-reco {
margin-bot tom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov

li a {

font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0962255976ov
li {

font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-sponsor #yiv0962255976ov

ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0962255976
#yiv0962255976ygrp-text {

font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text p {

margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-text tt {

font-size:120%;}

#yiv0962255976 #yiv0962255976ygrp-vital ul li:last-child
{
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0962255976

------------------------------------
Posted by: Ken Starcher <ohiocanal@...>
------------------------------------

----------------------------- -------

Yahoo Groups Links

(Yahoo! ID required)

vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

2 Attached Images

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379 --
#yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp #yiv8516047379hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp #yiv8516047379ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mkp .yiv8516047379ad a {
color:#0 000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc #yiv8516047379hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8516047379ygrp-lc .yiv8516047379ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span span {
color:#ff7900; }

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379activity span
.yiv8516047379underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;fon t-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 dd.yiv8516047379last p
span.yiv8516047379yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379file-title a, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:active, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:hover, #yiv8516047379
div.yiv8516047379file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:active,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8516047379 div.yiv8516047379photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 div#yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8516047379ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8516047379yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379green {< br>color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8516047379 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8516047379 .yiv8516047379replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inheri t;font:100%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8516047379 input, #yiv8516047379 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8516047379
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8516047379logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-msg
p#yiv8516047379attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-reco
#yiv8516047379reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp -sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-sponsor #yiv8516047379ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8516047379 #yiv8516047379ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8516047379

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26705	From: cwrailman	Date: 2/4/2018
Subject: Regearing a Varney Switcher

I pulled this from another thread:

"NWSL does not offer a gear set for the Varney Yard Switcher.

I am considering trying to find a set of NWSL gears that would work in the Varney switcher.

Bob K5MYJ"

Bob,

If you are talking about the SW style diesel switcher than I suggest that you take a very accurate measurement from centerline of the drive to centerline of the existing motor configuration then call NWSL and ask for Dave. Give Dave that measurement and he may be able to provide you with a set of gears. If you would like the model to run slower than original suggest that the gear on the motor be smaller than the gear on the drive assembly. I believe the originals were nearly the same size. Now, if that project was being done in our shops we would be replacing that motor with a recent can motor because we are more interested in smooth operation instead of keeping the model all original.

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26706	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/4/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

The first thing I plan to do is see if I can find a useable set of worms and axel gears.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 4:18 PM

Subject: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

I pulled this from another thread:

"NWSL does not offer a gear set for the Varney Yard Switcher.

I am considering trying to find a set of NWSL gears that would work in the Varney switcher.

Bob K5MYJ"

Bob,

If you are talking about the SW style diesel switcher than I suggest that you take a very accurate measurement from centerline of the drive to centerline of the existing motor configuration then call NWSL and ask for Dave. Give Dave that measurement and he may be able to provide you with a set of gears. If you would like the model to run slower than original suggest that the gear on the motor be smaller than the gear on the drive assembly. I believe the originals were nearly the same size. Now, if that project was being done in our shops we would be replacing that motor with a recent can motor because we are more interested in smooth operation instead of keeping the model all original.

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26707	From: trainliker	Date: 2/4/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Bob:

I have a Varney 2230K kit I bought of eBay some time ago. It was untouched and had never had anything unwrapped. When I unwrapped the trucks, the side frames had zinc rot and had swelled up making them useless. The unpainted shell is fine which illustrates the hit and miss nature of the zamak casting quality.

Everything else is fine. There’s not much I can do with this. If this will help you, send me an address off group and I’ll just mail the thing to you. (ckinzer@...).

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 5:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

The first thing I plan to do is see if I can find a useable set of worms and axel gears.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----
From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 4:18 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

I pulled this from another thread:
"NWSL does not offer a gear set for the Varney Yard Switcher.

I am considering trying to find a set of NWSL gears that would work in the Varney switcher.

Bob K5MYJ"

Bob,
If you are talking about the SW style diesel switcher than I suggest that you take a very accurate measurement from centerline of the drive to centerline of the existing motor configuration then call NWSL and ask for Dave. Give Dave that measurement and he may be able to provide you with a set of gears. If you would like the model to run slower than original suggest that the gear on the motor be smaller than the gear on the drive assembly. I believe the originals were nearly the same size. Now, if that project was being done in our shops we would be replacing that motor with a recent can motor because we are more interested in smooth operation instead of keeping the model all original.
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.com
Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26708	From: cwrailman	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26709	From: trainliker	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1950-52, with Pittman motor.
1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26710	From: trainliker	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1950-52, with Pittman motor.
1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26711	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Yes, you are lucky that the body is in good shape. This is not a new problem with Varney castings, but Varney is not the only brand with this problem. I have 2 of these, but no running gear came with them, just the bodies and pilots. One was perfect and very quickly received a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. This performed and is still performing beyond my expectations. if you can get one of those switcher chassis, it will amaze you. The other body has a bit of a bend in it, but I think that probably occurred due to a drop onto a cement floor. However, the pilots on the second one just fell apart, like they were made from weak plaster.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1950-52, with Pittman motor.
1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26712	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26713	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

I never knew they were an actual model of anything. I just thought they were a generic EMD switcher.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:44 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26714	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Chuck,

Only for the benefit of the other members here, I'd like to point out that there were numerous variations of the Varney NW-2, but with two of them cataloged as # 2230K as you state. Although actually, and as cataloged with other numbers -- so that others are aware of them -- there were three other variations, two of them with "sub"-numbers (letters) indicating road names, and a separate Twin Drive kit. Also, while the second version of # 2230k is said to have been produced between 1953 and 1965, Dave Spanagel indicated this was produced through 1968 -- perhaps a typo in his book, but never the less stated as such. Bob did state that he bought his as a kit and that it was unpainted, ruling out all but the 2230K version he already mentioned as having. I hadn't seen him state if his was dual-powered (Version B -- produced 1953 - 65), and while this would be immaterial as it would still be the 2230K version, if it were dual powered this could mean that it could have been produced at some time after (1957) Sol Kramer took over Varney's company (which may tell us why the side frames had zinc rot).

Could also indicate why your gear boxes developed zinc pest, even though (in general) much of this problem came about from Zamac used during the Korean War. While Gordon Varney had his share of "zinc pest," his castings were usually problem-free because of his close attention paid to the alloy mix that went into his kits, although he still had a small percentage of zinc pest later developing. Even while Adams & Sons did much of the casting for him, he was on top of things with these projects he farmed out, which is why his castings most often held up. On the other hand, Sol Kramer didn't pay quite as much attention to the way things were being produced with more problems developing from his Varney products after a while, with him even farming out these jobs to Japanese firms. It's already been established how Bob's Tenshodo FT gear boxes crumbled.

The other three versions of the NW-2, with their sub-numbers/letters, and the Twin Drive Kit were:

2552 NW-2 Switcher (factory assembled) - produced 1956 - 57

2258 Twin Drive Kit produced 1950 - 1952

2808 NW-2 Switcher produced 1960 - 63

2808NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven

2808PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania

2808SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

700 NW-2 Switcher - With KM-1 (Japanese) Motor produced 1962 - 65

700BO NW-2 Switcher - Baltimore & Ohio

700NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven

700PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania

700SF NW-2 Switcher - Santa Fe

700SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:44:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1950-52, with Pittman motor.
1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26715	From: J. L. Edwards	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26716	From: david vartanoff	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

a few more words about Varney gear drives. The early versions featured the three piece gearbox and a belt drive betweenthe motor and jackshaft. Later versions had a one piece gearbox w/ wheels axles gearsfactory assembled with aone piece nylon jackshaft and worms. This in turn was powered via spur gears . I would however point out that hobbytown of Boston has resurfaced and their system willperform far better than what Varney made.

On 02/06/2018 01:57 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators

Vintage HO Operators Group

7 Messages

Digest #3948

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by cwrailman

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Bob Macklin" k5myj

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by

Messages

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 8:39 am (PST) . Posted by:

cwrailman

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.com http://www.cwrailman.com/
Facebook: CWRailman http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:36 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.

In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

(A) 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
(B) 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
Which Varney switcher are you talking about? Â Â
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.comÂ
Facebook: CWRailmanÂ
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:42 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
Â
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:
Â
A. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
B. 1953-63, twin powered.
Â
This one seems to be the latter.
Â
I misremembered the issue.Â The side frames are fine.Â It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked.Â I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view.Â Cute.)
Â
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

Yes, you are lucky that the body is in good shape. This is not a new problem with Varney castings, but Varney is not the only brand with this problem. I have 2 of these, but no running gear came with them, just the bodies and pilots. One was perfect and very quickly received a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. This performed and is still performing beyond my expectations. if you can get one of those switcher chassis, it will amaze you. The other body has a bit of a bend in it, but I think that probably occurred due to a drop onto a cement floor. However, the pilots on the second one just fell apart, like they were made from weak plaster.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Bob Macklin" k5myj

I never knew they were an actual model of anything. I just thought they were a generic EMD switcher.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]<mailto:bitlerisvj@...%20[vintageHO]>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of cwrailman@...<mailto:cwrailman@...> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cwrailman.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=sOG%2Bkmz68eq6fP2GylLjZo5RWAToi2qr6dj0fUp1f2k%3D&reserved=0>

Facebook: CWRailman<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FCWRailman%2F124301240959518&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=I2NUPKhrBVnSHsExJm2Eg2nx0xSHbnRVGfoYMjYsxcY%3D&reserved=0>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 5:47 pm (PST) . Posted by:

Chuck,

Only for the benefit of the other members here, I'd like to point out that
there were numerous variations of the Varney NW-2, but with two of them
cataloged as # 2230K as you state. Although actually, and as cataloged with
other numbers -- so that others are aware of them -- there were three other
variations, two of them with "sub"-numbers (letters) indicating road
names, and a separate Twin Drive kit. Also, while the second version of # 2230k
is said to

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26717	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Yes.

SFAIK only Mantua used two motors for eight wheel drive, at least of the popular brands before the relatively recent China drives. And that was because of their somewhat unfortunate use if a self-contained power truck. While a rather quiet and smooth running unit, it required a longer than prototype wheelbase and the need for two power trucks for eight wheel drive. And, it limited pick-up to four wheels also.

Everyone else of the major brands used one motor with the second truck connected by a driveshaft. My 1953 Shark Nose ran so much quieter than my brothers 1949 Varney Brute eight wheel drive F3 but, by comparison, it was a definite weak sister.

My LHS ordered a eight wheel drive conversion from Mantua but it never came in for some reason. It wasn’t until about 4 – 5 years ago that I finally was able to land a dual motor Shark. Still quiet and smooth but I haven’t been able run it anywhere that I could hook a real string of car behind it. Anyone I know nowadays that could run a long train uses DCC. Getting DCC installed in a twin motor Shark would some sort of nightmare I’m sure and not worth the effort for a test.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 8:30 PM
To: Vintage HO Operators
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26718	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/5/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

Attachments :

Vintage HO Operators

The early F3’s had two versions.

The “Brute” used the good, three piece gear boxes and had gear drive with a DC71 (maybe DC70 but I seem to recall DC71) motor. The standard F3’s used a single piece gearbox that was open on the bottom and a DC60 motor. Relatively soon the gear drive was replaced with a spring-belt drive that I believe was done to eliminate noise. I know my brother’s Brute F3 A and B units were of the “If you can’t see them you sure as hell can hear them” variety. They were absolutely wonderful locos. Could pull every car we had up the near 4% grade on the layout. Frankly we thought the chirping gears sounded a bit like the EMD 567’s “chant” and kind of liked it. Boy that would drive today’s modelers stark raving nuts.

I am not sure if the spring belt models were still referred to as “Brutes” or not. The name did not seem to stick around long.

Later production, probably after Gordon sold Varney, all their eight wheel drive diesels, including the NW2’s used a plastic variation of the early, non-brute drives. They used gears but being nylon or plastic were quieter than the early Brutes.

I don’t believe the early NW2’s were available as eight wheel drive from Varney although they may have been. Eight wheel drive conversions were available but the added cost for a “mere” switcher probably stopped many dealers from stocking any production eight wheel drives them. Back in the day switchers were mainly sold as a low cost way to sell trainsets for beginners. All the popular train set manufacturers used switchers in their low priced sets.

When you look at the thousands of Varney “Little Joe” B&O C16’s and Mantua Shifters sold without valve gear (the Little Joe didn’t even have crosshead guides) it’s obvious they were “price leaders.” None of the diecast steam switchers of the day came with valve gears standard. Even the John English Pacific’s and Mikado’s didn’t include valve gears for cost concerns.

Kind of like buying a 1957 or 1958 Studebaker Scotsman or the very first Ramblers. Bare bones to say the least.

Hobbytown is another whole story but they were the Cadillac of US drives. Still are for those who really want a powerful loco. And boy, they made a lot of improvements though the years. Any change they made was an improvement in quality, driven by sound engineering, not price. And they remain the same today.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:05 PM
To: No Reply; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Digest Number 3948

On 02/06/2018 01:57 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators Group
7 Messages
Digest #3948
1a
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by cwrailman
1b
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker
1c
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker
1d
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj
1e
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj
1f
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Bob Macklin" k5myj
1g
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by
Messages
1a
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 8:39 am (PST) . Posted by:
cwrailman
Which Varney switcher are you talking about?
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.com http://www.cwrailman.com/
Facebook: CWRailman http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1b
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:36 am (PST) . Posted by:
"trainliker" trainliker
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.

In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

(A) 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
(B) 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
Which Varney switcher are you talking about? Â Â
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.comÂ
Facebook: CWRailmanÂ
Â
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1c
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:42 am (PST) . Posted by:
"trainliker" trainliker
Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
Â
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:
Â
A. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
B. 1953-63, twin powered.
Â
This one seems to be the latter.
Â
I misremembered the issue.Â The side frames are fine.Â It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked.Â I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view.Â Cute.)
Â
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Â
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1d
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj
Yes, you are lucky that the body is in good shape. This is not a new problem with Varney castings, but Varney is not the only brand with this problem. I have 2 of these, but no running gear came with them, just the bodies and pilots. One was perfect and very quickly received a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. This performed and is still performing beyond my expectations. if you can get one of those switcher chassis, it will amaze you. The other body has a bit of a bend in it, but I think that probably occurred due to a drop onto a cement floor. However, the pilots on the second one just fell apart, like they were made from weak plaster.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1e
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj
As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1f
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Bob Macklin" k5myj
I never knew they were an actual model of anything. I just thought they were a generic EMD switcher.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]<mailto:bitlerisvj@...%20[vintageHO]>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of cwrailman@...<mailto:cwrailman@...> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cwrailman.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=sOG%2Bkmz68eq6fP2GylLjZo5RWAToi2qr6dj0fUp1f2k%3D&reserved=0>

Facebook: CWRailman<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FCWRailman%2F124301240959518&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=I2NUPKhrBVnSHsExJm2Eg2nx0xSHbnRVGfoYMjYsxcY%3D&reserved=0>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1g
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 5:47 pm (PST) . Posted by:

Chuck,

Only for the benefit of the other members here, I'd like to point out that
there were numerous variations of the Varney NW-2, but with two of them
cataloged as # 2230K as you state. Although actually, and as cataloged with
other numbers -- so that others are aware of them -- there were three other
variations, two of them with "sub"-numbers (letters) indicating road
names, and a separate Twin Drive kit. Also, while the second version of # 2230k
is said to have been produced between 1953 and 1965, Dave Spanagel
indicated this was produced through 1968 -- perhaps a typo in his book, but never
the less stated as such. Bob did state that he bought his as a kit and
that it was unpainted, ruling out all but the 2230K version he already
mentioned as having. I hadn't seen him state if his was dual-powered (Version B
-- produced 1953 - 65), and while this would be immaterial as it would still
be the 2230K version, if it were dual powered this could mean that it
could have been produced at some time after (1957) Sol Kramer took over
Varney's company (which may tell us why the side frames had zinc rot).

Could also indicate why your gear boxes developed zinc pest, even though
(in general) much of this problem came about from Zamac used during the
Korean War. While Gordon Varney had his share of "zinc pest," his castings
were usually problem-free because of his close attention paid to the alloy mix
that went into his kits, although he still had a small percentage of zinc
pest later developing. Even while Adams & Sons did much of the casting for
him, he was on top of things with these projects he farmed out, which is
why his castings most often held up. On the other hand, Sol Kramer didn't
pay quite as much attention to the way things were being produced with more
problems developing from his Varney products after a while, with him even
farming out these jobs to Japanese firms. It's already been established how
Bob's Tenshodo FT gear boxes crumbled.

The other three versions of the NW-2, with their sub-numbers/letters, and
the Twin Drive Kit were:
2552 NW-2 Switcher (factory assembled) - produced 1956 - 57

2258 Twin Drive Kit produced 1950 - 1952

2808 NW-2 Switcher produced 1960 - 63
2808NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
2808PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
2808SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

700 NW-2 Switcher - With KM-1 (Japanese) Motor produced 1962 - 65
700BO NW-2 Switcher - Baltimore & Ohio
700NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
700PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
700SF NW-2 Switcher - Santa Fe
700SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:44:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer
Sent from _Mail_ (https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986) for
Windows 10

From: _trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]_
(mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K
kit:
1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.
This one seems to be the latter.
I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox
castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view
photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a
crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
Visit Your Group
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26719	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26720	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26721	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Wow, some of you guys appear to be still up very early in the morning (or very late at night). Received the reply below in my mailbox @ 1:05 AM (EST) but then I know some members are on the West Coast. Not meaning to get nit-picky, but for those who like to know when manufacturers first produced their products, Varney doesn't offer the F-3 Brute until including it in his 1950 catalog. None of the 1949 catalogs carries it, including the later 1949 4th Edition of the larger catalog nor the even later 1949 Miniature Edition. The F-3 was offered (since 1948), but with only one truck being powered (by a DC-60 motor). Spanagel states that "By 1949 an optional second geared truck was made available" (to be connected via a driveshaft), although Varney made no mention of it in his catalogs that year.

As I see it, to install DCC in a vintage locomotive like a Mantua Shark, just to see how much it can pull is defeating the purpose of owning a vintage engine. While this dual-motored Shark should undoubtedly pull much more that the usual single motor Shark, I tend to doubt that it would match the ability of the Varney Brute, only because Varney offered a weight to be installed over the second truck to increase pulling ability. The metal Shark has that metal post hanging down from inside the roof so a weight can't be installed, and the post isn't that massive (nor of a lead alloy) to add very much weight. Again, as Spanagel stated, "The fact that he [Gordon Varney] named the EMD F-3 A and F-3 B diesels 'Brute' was a testimony to their pulling capabilities." They're expected to pull a good load and they do! Still, adding a second motor to the Mantua Shark should be a big improvement (and one that I'm also planning to do with extra power trucks I've acquired).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 1:05:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Yes.

SFAIK only Mantua used two motors for eight wheel drive, at least of the popular brands before the relatively recent China drives. And that was because of their somewhat unfortunate use if a self-contained power truck. While a rather quiet and smooth running unit, it required a longer than prototype wheelbase and the need for two power trucks for eight wheel drive. And, it limited pick-up to four wheels also.

Everyone else of the major brands used one motor with the second truck connected by a driveshaft. My 1953 Shark Nose ran so much quieter than my brothers 1949 Varney Brute eight wheel drive F3 but, by comparison, it was a definite weak sister.

My LHS ordered a eight wheel drive conversion from Mantua but it never came in for some reason. It wasn’t until about 4 – 5 years ago that I finally was able to land a dual motor Shark. Still quiet and smooth but I haven’t been able run it anywhere that I could hook a real string of car behind it. Anyone I know nowadays that could run a long train uses DCC. Getting DCC installed in a twin motor Shark would some sort of nightmare I’m sure and not worth the effort for a test.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 8:30 PM
To: Vintage HO Operators
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Posted by: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>

Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (12)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

0.0.03.891140028y0txY6OJjo61xYR:00ccf5d2 E:4523839.1622371601 V:10f4.a8.1.1.16.1.US S:Amtrak 84

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26722	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

Hobbytown of Boston's drives are in a class of their own. They're well recognized as having superb mechanisms, even to including 0 Scale DC 90 motors in many of their mechanisms. They do cost much more though, but for those looking for diesel locomotives having huge pulling ability coupled with very smooth performance, that would be the way to go.

I'm not certain when Hobbytown came about, but this firm bought the tools & dies for the ALCo FA from J. Robert "Bob" Lindsay in 1954 and the ALCo PA, also from Lindsay, in 1955. Still. they don't seem to appear as being a "vintage" H0 manufacturer. BTW, Bob Lindsay worked with Gordon Varney from 1937 -- and through the War -- to 1946, helping in the War effort those later years, before opening his own line of H0 manufacturing of diesel locomotive models post-War, while also working with Levon Kamailian (Kemtron).

Varney used the three-piece gear box up through at least 1956, and while he filed the patent for the later one piece gear box with nylon jackshaft and worm and spur gears in 1953 (January 19), he wasn't awarded the patent until 1956 (March 27). It's unclear if he was able to produce this later drive between 1953 and 1956, and I'd guess probably not, but it was certainly available to Sol Kramer to continue with when he bought out Varney the following year (in 1957).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 1:07:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

a few more words about Varney gear drives. The early versions featured the three piece gearbox and a belt drive betweenthe motor and jackshaft. Later versions had a one piece gearbox w/ wheels axles gearsfactory assembled with aone piece nylon jackshaft and worms. This in turn was powered via spur gears . I would however point out that hobbytown of Boston has resurfaced and their system willperform far better than what Varney made.

On 02/06/2018 01:57 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators Group

7 Messages

Digest #3948

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by cwrailman

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Bob Macklin" k5myj

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by

Messages

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 8:39 am (PST) . Posted by:

cwrailman

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.com http://www.cwrailman.com/
Facebook: CWRailman http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:36 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.

In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

(A) 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
(B) 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
Which Varney switcher are you talking about? Â Â
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.comÂ
Facebook: CWRailmanÂ
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:42 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
Â
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:
Â
A. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
B. 1953-63, twin powered.
Â
This one seems to be the latter.
Â
I misremembered the issue.Â The side frames are fine.Â It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked.Â I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view.Â Cute.)
Â
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

Yes, you are lucky that the body is in good shape. This is not a new problem with Varney castings, but Varney is not the only brand with this problem. I have 2 of these, but no running gear came with them, just the bodies and pilots. One was perfect and very quickly received a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. This performed and is still performing beyond my expectations. if you can get one of those switcher chassis, it will amaze you. The other body has a bit of a bend in it, but I think that probably occurred due to a drop onto a cement floor. However, the pilots on the second one just fell apart, like they were made from weak plaster.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Bob Macklin" k5myj

I never knew they were an actual model of anything. I just thought they were a generic EMD switcher.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]<mailto:bitlerisvj@...%20[vintageHO]>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of cwrailman@...<mailto:cwrailman@...> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cwrailman.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=sOG%2Bkmz68eq6fP2GylLjZo5RWAToi2qr6dj0fUp1f2k%3D&reserved=0>

Facebook: CWRailman<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FCWRailman%2F124301240959518&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=I2NUPKhrBVnSHsExJm2Eg2nx0xSHbnRVGfoYMjYsxcY%3D&reserved=0>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 5:47 pm (PST) . Posted by:

Chuck,

Only for the benefit of the other members here, I'd like to point out that
there were numerous variations of the Varney NW-2, but with two of them
cataloged as # 2230K as you state. Although actually, and as cataloged with
other numbers -- so that others are aware of them -- there were three other
variations, two of them with "sub"-numbers (letters) indicating road
names, and a separate Twin Drive kit. Also, while the second version of # 2230k
is said to have been produced between 1953 and 1965, Dave Spanagel
indicated this was produced through 1968 -- perhaps a typo in his book, but never
the less stated as such. Bob did state that he bought his as a kit and
that it was unpainted, ruling out all but the 2230K version he already
mentioned as having. I hadn't seen him state if his was dual-powered (Version B
-- produced 1953 - 65), and while this would be immaterial as it would still
be the 2230K version, if it were dual powered this could mean that it
could have been produced at some time after (1957) Sol Kramer took over
Varney's company (which may tell us why the side frames had zinc rot).

Could also indicate why your gear boxes developed zinc pest, even though
(in general) much of this problem came about from Zamac used during the
Korean War. While Gordon Varney had his share of "zinc pest," his castings
were usually problem-free because of his close attention paid to the alloy mix
that went into his kits, although he still had a small percentage of zinc
pest later developing. Even while Adams & Sons did much of the casting for
him, he was on top of things with these projects he farmed out, which is
why his castings most often held up. On the other hand, Sol Kramer didn't
pay quite as much attention to the way things were being produced with more
problems developing from his Varney products after a while, with him even
farming out these jobs to Japanese firms. It's already been established how
Bob's Tenshodo FT gear boxes crumbled.

The other three versions of the NW-2, with their sub-numbers/letters, and
the Twin Drive Kit were:
2552 NW-2 Switcher (factory assembled) - produced 1956 - 57

2258 Twin Drive Kit produced 1950 - 1952

2808 NW-2 Switcher produced 1960 - 63
2808NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
2808PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
2808SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

700 NW-2 Switcher - With KM-1 (Japanese) Motor produced 1962 - 65
700BO NW-2 Switcher - Baltimore & Ohio
700NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
700PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
700SF NW-2 Switcher - Santa Fe
700SP N

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26723	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

Ray, with your vast knowledge, I sure hope you are helping Tony Cook with the HO Collector Magazine. I have an article coming out on the Athearn Hustler.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 9:16 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hobbytown of Boston's drives are in a class of their own. They're well recognized as having superb mechanisms, even to including 0 Scale DC 90 motors in many of their mechanisms. They do cost much more though, but for those looking for diesel locomotives having huge pulling ability coupled with very smooth performance, that would be the way to go.

I'm not certain when Hobbytown came about, but this firm bought the tools & dies for the ALCo FA from J. Robert "Bob" Lindsay in 1954 and the ALCo PA, also from Lindsay, in 1955. Still. they don't seem to appear as being a "vintage" H0 manufacturer. BTW, Bob Lindsay worked with Gordon Varney from 1937 -- and through the War -- to 1946, helping in the War effort those later years, before opening his own line of H0 manufacturing of diesel locomotive models post-War, while also working with Levon Kamailian (Kemtron).

Varney used the three-piece gear box up through at least 1956, and while he filed the patent for the later one piece gear box with nylon jackshaft and worm and spur gears in 1953 (January 19), he wasn't awarded the patent until 1956 (March 27). It's unclear if he was able to produce this later drive between 1953 and 1956, and I'd guess probably not, but it was certainly available to Sol Kramer to continue with when he bought out Varney the following year (in 1957).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 1:07:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

a few more words about Varney gear drives. The early versions featured the three piece gearbox and a belt drive betweenthe motor and jackshaft. Later versions had a one piece gearbox w/ wheels axles gearsfactory assembled with aone piece nylon jackshaft and worms. This in turn was powered via spur gears . I would however point out that hobbytown of Boston has resurfaced and their system willperform far better than what Varney made.

On 02/06/2018 01:57 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators Group

7 Messages

Digest #3948

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by cwrailman

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Bob Macklin" k5myj

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by

Messages

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 8:39 am (PST) . Posted by:

cwrailman

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.com http://www.cwrailman.com/
Facebook: CWRailman http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:36 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.

In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

(A) 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
(B) 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
Which Varney switcher are you talking about? Â Â
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.comÂ
Facebook: CWRailmanÂ
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:42 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
Â
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:
Â
A. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
B. 1953-63, twin powered.
Â
This one seems to be the latter.
Â
I misremembered the issue.Â The side frames are fine.Â It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked.Â I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view.Â Cute.)
Â
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

Yes, you are lucky that the body is in good shape. This is not a new problem with Varney castings, but Varney is not the only brand with this problem. I have 2 of these, but no running gear came with them, just the bodies and pilots. One was perfect and very quickly received a Hobbytown of Boston chassis.. This performed and is still performing beyond my expectations. if you can get one of those switcher chassis, it will amaze you. The other body has a bit of a bend in it, but I think that probably occurred due to a drop onto a cement floor. However, the pilots on the second one just fell apart, like they were made from weak plaster.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Bob Macklin" k5myj

I never knew they were an actual model of anything. I just thought they were a generic EMD switcher.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]<mailto:bitlerisvj@...%20[vintageHO]>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of cwrailman@...<mailto:cwrailman@...> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cwrailman.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=sOG%2Bkmz68eq6fP2GylLjZo5RWAToi2qr6dj0fUp1f2k%3D&reserved=0>

Facebook: CWRailman<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FCWRailman%2F124301240959518&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=I2NUPKhrBVnSHsExJm2Eg2nx0xSHbnRVGfoYMjYsxcY%3D&reserved=0>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 5:47 pm (PST) . Posted by:

Chuck,

Only for the benefit of the other members here, I'd like to point out that
there were numerous variations of the Varney NW-2, but with two of them
cataloged as # 2230K as you state. Although actually, and as cataloged with
other numbers -- so that others are aware of them -- there were three other
variations, two of them with "sub"-numbers (letters) indicating road
names, and a separate Twin Drive kit. Also, while the second version of # 2230k
is said to have been produced between 1953 and 1965, Dave Spanagel
indicated this was produced through 1968 -- perhaps a typo in his book, but never
the less stated as such. Bob did state that he bought his as a kit and
that it was unpainted, ruling out all but the 2230K version he already
mentioned as having. I hadn't seen him state if his was dual-powered (Version B
-- produced 1953 - 65), and while this would be immaterial as it would still
be the 2230K version, if it were dual powered this could mean that it
could have been produced at some time after (1957) Sol Kramer took over
Varney's company (which may tell us why the side frames had zinc rot).

Could also indicate why your gear boxes developed zinc pest, even though
(in general) much of this problem came about from Zamac used during the
Korean War. While Gordon Varney had his share of "zinc pest," his castings
were usually problem-free because of his close attention paid to the alloy mix
that went into his kits, although he still had a small percentage of zinc
pest later developing. Even while Adams & Sons did much of the casting for
him, he was on top of things with these projects he farmed out, which is
why his castings most often held up. On the other hand, Sol Kramer didn't
pay quite as much attention to the way things were being produced with more
problems developing from his Varney products after a while, with him even
farming out these jobs to Japanese firms. It's already been established how
Bob's Tenshodo FT gear boxes crumbled.

The other three versions of the NW-2, with their sub-numbers/letters, and
the Twin Drive Kit were:
2552 NW-2 Switcher (factory assembled) - produced 1956 - 57

2258 Twin Drive Kit produced 1950 - 1952

2808 NW-2 Switcher produced 1960 - 63
2808NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
2808PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
2808SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

700 NW-2 Switcher - With KM-1 (Japanese) Motor produced 1962 - 65
700BO NW-2 Switcher - Baltimore & Ohio
700NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
700PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
700SF NW-2 Switcher - Santa Fe
700SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:44:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer
Sent from _Mail_ (https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986) for
Windows 10

From: _trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]_
(mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K
kit:
1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.
This one seems to be the latter.
I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox
castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view
photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a
crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26724	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

I got into HO in 1960. Sold my Lionel! Neither of the two LHS’s would carry Varney. By then Athearn had the HI-F drive and Mantua had the “F9” with the great power truck. I still have mine, bought in 1960. Compared to the geared stuff from that period, like English, Revell, Gilbert Alcohol diesel, the Mantua was great. I had them all. They all ran like crap, except Athearn or Mantua. The exception was Penn Line, which I couldn’t afford. They were real quality and came with Athearn shells. Eventually, I earned enough money to buy a Hobbytown PA-1 and an RS-3.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 12:43 AM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The early F3’s had two versions.
The “Brute” used the good, three piece gear boxes and had gear drive with a DC71 (maybe DC70 but I seem to recall DC71) motor. The standard F3’s used a single piece gearbox that was open on the bottom and a DC60 motor. Relatively soon the gear drive was replaced with a spring-belt drive that I believe was done to eliminate noise. I know my brother’s Brute F3 A and B units were of the “If you can’t see them you sure as hell can hear them” variety. They were absolutely wonderful locos. Could pull every car we had up the near 4% grade on the layout. Frankly we thought the chirping gears sounded a bit like the EMD 567’s “chant” and kind of liked it. Boy that would drive today’s modelers stark raving nuts.
I am not sure if the spring belt models were still referred to as “Brutes” or not. The name did not seem to stick around long.
Later production, probably after Gordon sold Varney, all their eight wheel drive diesels, including the NW2’s used a plastic variation of the early, non-brute drives. They used gears but being nylon or plastic were quieter than the early Brutes.
I don’t believe the early NW2’s were available as eight wheel drive from Varney although they may have been. Eight wheel drive conversions were available but the added cost for a “mere” switcher probably stopped many dealers from stocking any production eight wheel drives them. Back in the day switchers were mainly sold as a low cost way to sell trainsets for beginners. All the popular train set manufacturers used switchers in their low priced sets.
When you look at the thousands of Varney “Little Joe” B&O C16’s and Mantua Shifters sold without valve gear (the Little Joe didn’t even have crosshead guides) it’s obvious they were “price leaders.” None of the diecast steam switchers of the day came with valve gears standard. Even the John English Pacific’s and Mikado’s didn’t include valve gears for cost concerns.
Kind of like buying a 1957 or 1958 Studebaker Scotsman or the very first Ramblers. Bare bones to say the least.
Hobbytown is another whole story but they were the Cadillac of US drives. Still are for those who really want a powerful loco. And boy, they made a lot of improvements though the years. Any change they made was an improvement in quality, driven by sound engineering, not price. And they remain the same today.
John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:05 PM
To: No Reply; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Digest Number 3948

a few more words about Varney gear drives. The early versions featured the three piece gearbox and a belt drive betweenthe motor and jackshaft. Later versions had a one piece gearbox w/ wheels axles gearsfactory assembled with aone piece nylon jackshaft and worms. This in turn was powered via spur gears . I would however point out that hobbytown of Boston has resurfaced and their system willperform far better than what Varney made.

On 02/06/2018 01:57 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Vintage HO Operators Group
7 Messages
Digest #3948
1a
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by cwrailman
1b
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker
1c
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker
1d
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj
1e
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj
1f
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Bob Macklin" k5myj
1g
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by
Messages
1a
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 8:39 am (PST) . Posted by:
cwrailman
Which Varney switcher are you talking about?
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.com http://www.cwrailman.com/
Facebook: CWRailman http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1b
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:36 am (PST) . Posted by:
"trainliker" trainliker
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.

In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

(A) 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
(B) 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
Which Varney switcher are you talking about? Â Â
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.comÂ
Facebook: CWRailmanÂ
Â
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1c
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:42 am (PST) . Posted by:
"trainliker" trainliker
Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
Â
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:
Â
A. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
B. 1953-63, twin powered.
Â
This one seems to be the latter.
Â
I misremembered the issue.Â The side frames are fine.Â It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked.Â I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view.Â Cute.)
Â
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Â
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1d
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj
Yes, you are lucky that the body is in good shape. This is not a new problem with Varney castings, but Varney is not the only brand with this problem. I have 2 of these, but no running gear came with them, just the bodies and pilots. One was perfect and very quickly received a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. This performed and is still performing beyond my expectations. if you can get one of those switcher chassis, it will amaze you. The other body has a bit of a bend in it, but I think that probably occurred due to a drop onto a cement floor. However, the pilots on the second one just fell apart, like they were made from weak plaster.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1e
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj
As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1f
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Bob Macklin" k5myj
I never knew they were an actual model of anything. I just thought they were a generic EMD switcher.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]<mailto:bitlerisvj@...%20[vintageHO]>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of cwrailman@...<mailto:cwrailman@...> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cwrailman.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=sOG%2Bkmz68eq6fP2GylLjZo5RWAToi2qr6dj0fUp1f2k%3D&reserved=0>

Facebook: CWRailman<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FCWRailman%2F124301240959518&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=I2NUPKhrBVnSHsExJm2Eg2nx0xSHbnRVGfoYMjYsxcY%3D&reserved=0>
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
1g
Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
Mon Feb 5, 2018 5:47 pm (PST) . Posted by:

Chuck,

Only for the benefit of the other members here, I'd like to point out that
there were numerous variations of the Varney NW-2, but with two of them
cataloged as # 2230K as you state. Although actually, and as cataloged with
other numbers -- so that others are aware of them -- there were three other
variations, two of them with "sub"-numbers (letters) indicating road
names, and a separate Twin Drive kit. Also, while the second version of # 2230k
is said to have been produced between 1953 and 1965, Dave Spanagel
indicated this was produced through 1968 -- perhaps a typo in his book, but never
the less stated as such. Bob did state that he bought his as a kit and
that it was unpainted, ruling out all but the 2230K version he already
mentioned as having. I hadn't seen him state if his was dual-powered (Version B
-- produced 1953 - 65), and while this would be immaterial as it would still
be the 2230K version, if it were dual powered this could mean that it
could have been produced at some time after (1957) Sol Kramer took over
Varney's company (which may tell us why the side frames had zinc rot).

Could also indicate why your gear boxes developed zinc pest, even though
(in general) much of this problem came about from Zamac used during the
Korean War. While Gordon Varney had his share of "zinc pest," his castings
were usually problem-free because of his close attention paid to the alloy mix
that went into his kits, although he still had a small percentage of zinc
pest later developing. Even while Adams & Sons did much of the casting for
him, he was on top of things with these projects he farmed out, which is
why his castings most often held up. On the other hand, Sol Kramer didn't
pay quite as much attention to the way things were being produced with more
problems developing from his Varney products after a while, with him even
farming out these jobs to Japanese firms. It's already been established how
Bob's Tenshodo FT gear boxes crumbled.

The other three versions of the NW-2, with their sub-numbers/letters, and
the Twin Drive Kit were:
2552 NW-2 Switcher (factory assembled) - produced 1956 - 57

2258 Twin Drive Kit produced 1950 - 1952

2808 NW-2 Switcher produced 1960 - 63
2808NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
2808PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
2808SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

700 NW-2 Switcher - With KM-1 (Japanese) Motor produced 1962 - 65
700BO NW-2 Switcher - Baltimore & Ohio
700NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
700PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
700SF NW-2 Switcher - Santa Fe
700SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:44:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer
Sent from _Mail_ (https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986) for
Windows 10

From: _trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]_
(mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups..com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K
kit:
1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.
This one seems to be the latter.
I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox
castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view
photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a
crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^
Visit Your Group
<image001.jpg>
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26725	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

Attachments :

It should be noted that ALL (three) of the early versions of the Varney F-3 -- except for the V-4 Super Power motor version -- up through 1957, had three-piece gear boxes -- including the spring-belt drive, the single power truck geared drive and the dual power truck drive Brute. All early versions having unpainted die cast bodies, to make it clear. The Catalog # 1955 (powered A-Unit) and # 1956 (powered B-Unit) spring belt drive were the first F-Units Varney produced -- in 1948 - @ $19.75. As this precludes the production of the single power truck geared F-3 Unit, this would seem to negate the notion that it was produced to lessen noise that the geared version made. The # 1955 and # 1956 (including the dummies (# 1955 and # 1956) are the only F-3 model offered in the 1948 catalogs.

In the 1949 Varney catalog, it was announced; "Available in 2 models -- Standard and De Luxe," with the spring belt/3 step pulley drive models (#1955 & # 1956) now designated as the "Standard Diesel" - still priced @ $19.75) - and the new (for 1949) # 1988 (A-Unit) and # 1989 (B-Unit) V-4 Super Power 7-pole motor versions being called the De Luxe Diesel. They were offered @ $24.95. No other F-3 models were offered this year. The spring belt drive F-3 continued to use a DC-60 motor just as it would through its entire production run through 1955.

The 8-wheel twin drive F-3 A and F-3 B "Brute" models, coming with the DC-71 motor (from the factory) was introduced in 1950, as per Varney's 1950's Miniature Edition catalogs, and was priced @ $20.95. In Varney's 1953 Miniature Edition catalog, the single power truck geared version appears to be introduced, powered A or B units being priced @$13.95. It may have been added in 1952 (I don't have that catalog -- if there was one -- Spanagel doesn't include one), but it wasn't offered in the 1950 catalog, nor in 1948 or 1949, and it isn't in the Varney "1,001 Genuine HO Loco & Car Parts" manual, published in 1951..

The Varney 1955 catalog ("New 1955 Edition !") advertises "New F-3 Diesel loco kits," offering a choice of factory painted roadnames -- UP, B&O and NYC -- powered A and B units priced @ $17.50 and dummy A and B units priced @ $3.95. As also advertising, "Again Varney makes loco news !", these are the first of the plastic (Polystyrene) body F-3 models coming with Varney's patented nylon spur and worm gear drive one-piece gearbox (I spoke too soon in my previous message on this topic). They came with DC-60 motors. Other plastic models were to follow, but these same models -- in 1956 -- were priced @ $15.00 for the powered units and $1.25 for the dummy units -- per that year's catalog.

Spanagel includes plastic bodied Varney F-3s being produced in 1955 -- as catalog #'s 2457 (Twin Powered A-Unit) and 2458 (Twin Powered B-Unit) -- with GN, FEC, CB&Q, ACL and MP roadnames, but these don't appear in the Varney catalog until 1957, advertised there as being new for that year and now "with heavy die cast underframe." I'm not sure how Dave Spanagel came to his conclusion on the year these were released as I and many others in our HO SC&H group he headed up assisted him in various ways (adding info, mailing him Varney publications, proofreading, etc.) with the publication of his "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" book, but perhaps he used other info. These models, with the five afore-mentioned roadnames -- were offered -- as catalog # 2515 (again I have to wonder about Dave's info, even though he does include this catalog number in his book, but with no roadnames mentioned) and were priced @ $15.00 for Twin Powered A-Units and also @ $15.00 for Twin Powered B-units, with no dummy units being available -- per Varney's 1957 Edition catalog.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:06:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The early F3’s had two versions.

The “Brute” used the good, three piece gear boxes and had gear drive with a DC71 (maybe DC70 but I seem to recall DC71) motor. The standard F3’s used a single piece gearbox that was open on the bottom and a DC60 motor. Relatively soon the gear drive was replaced with a spring-belt drive that I believe was done to eliminate noise. I know my brother’s Brute F3 A and B units were of the “If you can’t see them you sure as hell can hear them” variety. They were absolutely wonderful locos. Could pull every car we had up the near 4% grade on the layout. Frankly we thought the chirping gears sounded a bit like the EMD 567’s “chant” and kind of liked it. Boy that would drive today’s modelers stark raving nuts.

I am not sure if the spring belt models were still referred to as “Brutes” or not. The name did not seem to stick around long.

Later production, probably after Gordon sold Varney, all their eight wheel drive diesels, including the NW2’s used a plastic variation of the early, non-brute drives. They used gears but being nylon or plastic were quieter than the early Brutes.

I don’t believe the early NW2’s were available as eight wheel drive from Varney although they may have been. Eight wheel drive conversions were available but the added cost for a “mere” switcher probably stopped many dealers from stocking any production eight wheel drives them. Back in the day switchers were mainly sold as a low cost way to sell trainsets for beginners. All the popular train set manufacturers used switchers in their low priced sets.

When you look at the thousands of Varney “Little Joe” B&O C16’s and Mantua Shifters sold without valve gear (the Little Joe didn’t even have crosshead guides) it’s obvious they were “price leaders.” None of the diecast steam switchers of the day came with valve gears standard. Even the John English Pacific’s and Mikado’s didn’t include valve gears for cost concerns.

Kind of like buying a 1957 or 1958 Studebaker Scotsman or the very first Ramblers. Bare bones to say the least.

Hobbytown is another whole story but they were the Cadillac of US drives. Still are for those who really want a powerful loco. And boy, they made a lot of improvements though the years. Any change they made was an improvement in quality, driven by sound engineering, not price. And they remain the same today.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:05 PM
To: No Reply; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Digest Number 3948

a few more words about Varney gear drives. The early versions featured the three piece gearbox and a belt drive betweenthe motor and jackshaft. Later versions had a one piece gearbox w/ wheels axles gearsfactory assembled with aone piece nylon jackshaft and worms. This in turn was powered via spur gears . I would however point out that hobbytown of Boston has resurfaced and their system willperform far better than what Varney made.

On 02/06/2018 01:57 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators Group

7 Messages

Digest #3948

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by cwrailman

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Bob Macklin" k5myj

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by

Messages

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 8:39 am (PST) . Posted by:

cwrailman

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.com http://www.cwrailman.com/
Facebook: CWRailman http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:36 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.

In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

(A) 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
(B) 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
Which Varney switcher are you talking about? Â Â
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.comÂ
Facebook: CWRailmanÂ
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:42 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
Â
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:
Â
A. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
B. 1953-63, twin powered.
Â
This one seems to be the latter.
Â
I misremembered the issue.Â The side frames are fine.Â It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked.Â I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view.Â Cute.)
Â
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

Yes, you are lucky that the body is in good shape. This is not a new problem with Varney castings, but Varney is not the only brand with this problem. I have 2 of these, but no running gear came with them, just the bodies and pilots. One was perfect and very quickly received a Hobbytown of Boston chassis. This performed and is still performing beyond my expectations. if you can get one of those switcher chassis, it will amaze you. The other body has a bit of a bend in it, but I think that probably occurred due to a drop onto a cement floor. However, the pilots on the second one just fell apart, like they were made from weak plaster.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Bob Macklin" k5myj

I never knew they were an actual model of anything. I just thought they were a generic EMD switcher.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]<mailto:bitlerisvj@...%20[vintageHO]>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of cwrailman@...<mailto:cwrailman@...> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cwrailman.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=sOG%2Bkmz68eq6fP2GylLjZo5RWAToi2qr6dj0fUp1f2k%3D&reserved=0>

Facebook: CWRailman<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FCWRailman%2F124301240959518&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=I2NUPKhrBVnSHsExJm2Eg2nx0xSHbnRVGfoYMjYsxcY%3D&reserved=0>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 5:47 pm (PST) . Posted by:

Chuck,

Only for the benefit of the other members here, I'd like to point out that
there were numerous variations of the Varney NW-2, but with two of them
cataloged as # 2230K as you state. Although actually, and as cataloged with
other numbers -- so that others are aware of them -- there were three other
variations, two of them with "sub"-numbers (letters) indicating road
names, and a separate Twin Drive kit. Also, while the second version of # 2230k
is said to have been produced between 1953 and 1965, Dave Spanagel
indicated this was produced through 1968 -- perhaps a typo in his book, but never
the less stated as such. Bob did state that he bought his as a kit and
that it was unpainted, ruling out all but the 2230K version he already
mentioned as having. I hadn't seen him state if his was dual-powered (Version B
-- produced 1953 - 65), and while this would be immaterial as it would still
be the 2230K version, if it were dual powered this could mean that it
could have been produced at some time after (1957) Sol Kramer took over
Varney's company (which may tell us why the side frames had zinc rot).

Could also indicate why your gear boxes developed zinc pest, even though
(in general) much of this problem came about from Zamac used during the
Korean War. While Gordon Varney had his share of "zinc pest," his castings
were usually problem-free because of his close attention paid to the alloy mix
that went into his kits, although he still had a small percentage of zinc
pest later developing. Even while Adams & Sons did much of the casting for
him, he was on top of things with these projects he farmed out, which is
why his castings most often held up. On the other hand, Sol Kramer didn't
pay quite as much attention to the way things were being produced with more
problems developing from his Varney products after a while, with him even
farming out these jobs to Japanese firms. It's already been established how
Bob's Tenshodo FT gear boxes crumbled.

The other three versions of the NW-2, with their sub-numbers/letters, and
the Twin Drive Kit were:
2552 NW-2 Switcher (factory assembled) - produced 1956 - 57

2258 Twin Drive Kit produced 1950 - 1952

2808 NW-2 Switcher produced 1960 - 63
2808NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
2808PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
2808SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

700 NW-2 Switcher - With KM-1 (Japanese) Motor produced 1962 - 65
700BO NW-2 Switcher - Baltimore & Ohio
700NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
700PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
700SF NW-2 Switcher - Santa Fe
700SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:44:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer
Sent from _Mail_ (https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986) for
Windows 10

From: _trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]_
(mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups..com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K
kit:
1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.
This one seems to be the latter.
I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox
castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view
photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a
crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26726	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26727	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

I forgot to answer your last question, but to reply to it, in my estimation you can't beat Varney's three-piece power truck used in the die-cast F-3's. The NW-2 power trucks were still decent, but nothing like the F-3's power trucks. The Penn Line F-7 power trucks were always great though. I've never heard anything bad about them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26728	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

Brad,

I had approached him, but we just didn't quite see eye to eye. Great magazine they're publishing though. I'll be looking for your Athearn Hustler article. Some guys use that mechanism under a Cary Boxcab shell, which you probably already know about. Works out well.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/6/2018 11:00:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray, with your vast knowledge, I sure hope you are helping Tony Cook with the HO Collector Magazine. I have an article coming out on the Athearn Hustler.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 9:16 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hobbytown of Boston's drives are in a class of their own. They're well recognized as having superb mechanisms, even to including 0 Scale DC 90 motors in many of their mechanisms. They do cost much more though, but for those looking for diesel locomotives having huge pulling ability coupled with very smooth performance, that would be the way to go.

I'm not certain when Hobbytown came about, but this firm bought the tools & dies for the ALCo FA from J. Robert "Bob" Lindsay in 1954 and the ALCo PA, also from Lindsay, in 1955. Still. they don't seem to appear as being a "vintage" H0 manufacturer. BTW, Bob Lindsay worked with Gordon Varney from 1937 -- and through the War -- to 1946, helping in the War effort those later years, before opening his own line of H0 manufacturing of diesel locomotive models post-War, while also working with Levon Kamailian (Kemtron).

Varney used the three-piece gear box up through at least 1956, and while he filed the patent for the later one piece gear box with nylon jackshaft and worm and spur gears in 1953 (January 19), he wasn't awarded the patent until 1956 (March 27). It's unclear if he was able to produce this later drive between 1953 and 1956, and I'd guess probably not, but it was certainly available to Sol Kramer to continue with when he bought out Varney the following year (in 1957).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 1:07:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

a few more words about Varney gear drives. The early versions featured the three piece gearbox and a belt drive betweenthe motor and jackshaft. Later versions had a one piece gearbox w/ wheels axles gearsfactory assembled with aone piece nylon jackshaft and worms. This in turn was powered via spur gears . I would however point out that hobbytown of Boston has resurfaced and their system willperform far better than what Varney made.

On 02/06/2018 01:57 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators Group

7 Messages

Digest #3948

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by cwrailman

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Bob Macklin" k5myj

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by

Messages

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 8:39 am (PST) . Posted by:

cwrailman

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.com http://www.cwrailman.com/
Facebook: CWRailman http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:36 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.

In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

(A) 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
(B) 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
Which Varney switcher are you talking about? Â Â
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.comÂ
Facebook: CWRailmanÂ
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:42 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
Â
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:
Â
A. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
B. 1953-63, twin powered.
Â
This one seems to be the latter.
Â
I misremembered the issue.Â The side frames are fine.Â It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked.Â I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view.Â Cute.)
Â
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

Yes, you are lucky that the body is in good shape. This is not a new problem with Varney castings, but Varney is not the only brand with this problem. I have 2 of these, but no running gear came with them, just the bodies and pilots. One was perfect and very quickly received a Hobbytown of Boston chassis... This performed and is still performing beyond my expectations. if you can get one of those switcher chassis, it will amaze you. The other body has a bit of a bend in it, but I think that probably occurred due to a drop onto a cement floor. However, the pilots on the second one just fell apart, like they were made from weak plaster.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Bob Macklin" k5myj

I never knew they were an actual model of anything. I just thought they were a generic EMD switcher.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]<mailto:bitlerisvj@...%20[vintageHO]>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of cwrailman@...<mailto:cwrailman@...> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cwrailman.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=sOG%2Bkmz68eq6fP2GylLjZo5RWAToi2qr6dj0fUp1f2k%3D&reserved=0>

Facebook: CWRailman<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FCWRailman%2F124301240959518&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=I2NUPKhrBVnSHsExJm2Eg2nx0xSHbnRVGfoYMjYsxcY%3D&reserved=0>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 5:47 pm (PST) . Posted by:

Chuck,

Only for the benefit of the other members here, I'd like to point out that
there were numerous variations of the Varney NW-2, but with two of them
cataloged as # 2230K as you state. Although actually, and as cataloged with
other numbers -- so that others are aware of them -- there were three other
variations, two of them with "sub"-numbers (letters) indicating road
names, and a separate Twin Drive kit. Also, while the second version of # 2230k
is said to have been produced between 1953 and 1965, Dave Spanagel
indicated this was produced through 1968 -- perhaps a typo in his book, but never
the less stated as such. Bob did state that he bought his as a kit and
that it was unpainted, ruling out all but the 2230K version he already
mentioned as having. I hadn't seen him state if his was dual-powered (Version B
-- produced 1953 - 65), and while this would be immaterial as it would still
be the 2230K version, if it wer

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26729	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

Ray, I have the Cary/Bowser shell. I have collected Athearn Hustlers for years. There are more numbers than is in both books.

Brad

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 12:34 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I had approached him, but we just didn't quite see eye to eye. Great magazine they're publishing though. I'll be looking for your Athearn Hustler article. Some guys use that mechanism under a Cary Boxcab shell, which you probably already know about. Works out well.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/6/2018 11:00:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray, with your vast knowledge, I sure hope you are helping Tony Cook with the HO Collector Magazine. I have an article coming out on the Athearn Hustler.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 9:16 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hobbytown of Boston's drives are in a class of their own. They're well recognized as having superb mechanisms, even to including 0 Scale DC 90 motors in many of their mechanisms. They do cost much more though, but for those looking for diesel locomotives having huge pulling ability coupled with very smooth performance, that would be the way to go.

I'm not certain when Hobbytown came about, but this firm bought the tools & dies for the ALCo FA from J. Robert "Bob" Lindsay in 1954 and the ALCo PA, also from Lindsay, in 1955. Still. they don't seem to appear as being a "vintage" H0 manufacturer. BTW, Bob Lindsay worked with Gordon Varney from 1937 -- and through the War -- to 1946, helping in the War effort those later years, before opening his own line of H0 manufacturing of diesel locomotive models post-War, while also working with Levon Kamailian (Kemtron).

Varney used the three-piece gear box up through at least 1956, and while he filed the patent for the later one piece gear box with nylon jackshaft and worm and spur gears in 1953 (January 19), he wasn't awarded the patent until 1956 (March 27). It's unclear if he was able to produce this later drive between 1953 and 1956, and I'd guess probably not, but it was certainly available to Sol Kramer to continue with when he bought out Varney the following year (in 1957).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 1:07:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

a few more words about Varney gear drives.    The early versions featured the three piece gearbox and a belt drive betweenthe motor and jackshaft. Later versions had a one piece gearbox w/ wheels axles gearsfactory assembled with aone piece nylon jackshaft and worms. This in turn was powered via spur gears .     I would however point out that hobbytown of Boston has resurfaced and their system willperform far better than what Varney made.

On 02/06/2018 01:57 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators Group

7 Messages

Digest #3948

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by cwrailman

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "trainliker" trainliker

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by "Bob Macklin" k5myj

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher by

Messages

1a

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 8:39 am (PST) . Posted by:

cwrailman

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.com http://www.cwrailman.com/
Facebook: CWRailman http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1b

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:36 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.

In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

(A) 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
(B) 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
Which Varney switcher are you talking about? Â Â
Denny
Janitor in Training
CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops
WEB site: CWRailman.comÂ
Facebook: CWRailmanÂ
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1c

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:42 am (PST) . Posted by:

"trainliker" trainliker

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.

Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 9:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Â
It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls â€œYard Diesel Locomotiveâ€.
Â
In John Spanagelâ€™s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:
Â
A. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
B. 1953-63, twin powered.
Â
This one seems to be the latter.
Â
I misremembered the issue.Â The side frames are fine.Â It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked.Â I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the â€œVarneyâ€ and â€œPatâ€ and â€œPendâ€arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view.Â Cute.)
Â
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzeer
Â

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1d

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

Yes, you are lucky that the body is in good shape. This is not a new problem with Varney castings, but Varney is not the only brand with this problem. I have 2 of these, but no running gear came with them, just the bodies and pilots. One was perfect and very quickly received a Hobbytown of Boston chassis... This performed and is still performing beyond my expectations. if you can get one of those switcher chassis, it will amaze you. The other body has a bit of a bend in it, but I think that probably occurred due to a drop onto a cement floor. However, the pilots on the second one just fell apart, like they were made from weak plaster.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

It is the EMD NW-2 diesel that Varney calls “Yard Diesel Locomotive”.

In John Spanagel’s book, there seem to be two variations for the 2230K kit:

1. 1950-52, with Pittman motor.
2. 1953-63, twin powered.

This one seems to be the latter.

I misremembered the issue. The side frames are fine. It is the gearbox castings that swelled and cracked. I have attached top and bottom view photos of one of them (and the “Varney” and “Pat” and “Pend”arranged like a crossword puzzle is visible in the top view. Cute.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzeer

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: cwrailman@... [vintageHO]<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1e

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 9:44 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Victor Bitleris" bitlerisvj

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cwrailman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <http://www.cwrailman.com/>

Facebook: CWRailman<http://www.facebook.com/pages/CWRailman/124301240959518>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1f

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 11:16 am (PST) . Posted by:

"Bob Macklin" k5myj

I never knew they were an actual model of anything. I just thought they were a generic EMD switcher.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]<mailto:bitlerisvj@...%20[vintageHO]>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

As you can tell by now, it is the NW-2.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

________________________________
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of cwrailman@...<mailto:cwrailman@...> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 11:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Regearing a Varney Switcher

Which Varney switcher are you talking about?

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cwrailman.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=sOG%2Bkmz68eq6fP2GylLjZo5RWAToi2qr6dj0fUp1f2k%3D&reserved=0>

Facebook: CWRailman<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FCWRailman%2F124301240959518&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9a8d48e7361644966c7808d56cc0841a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636534496455080506&sdata=I2NUPKhrBVnSHsExJm2Eg2nx0xSHbnRVGfoYMjYsxcY%3D&reserved=0>

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (10) . Top ^

1g

Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Mon Feb 5, 2018 5:47 pm (PST) . Posted by:

Chuck,

Only for the benefit of the other members here, I'd like to point out that
there were numerous variations of the Varney NW-2, but with two of them
cataloged as # 2230K as you state. Although actually, and as cataloged with
other numbers -- so that others are aware of them -- there were three other
variations, two of them with "sub"-numbers (letters) indicating road
names, and a separate Twin Drive kit. Also, while the second version of # 2230k
is said to have been produced between 1953 and 1965, Dave Spanagel
indicated this was produced through 1968 -- perhaps a typo in his book, but never
the less stated as such. Bob did state that he bought his as a kit and
that it was unpainted, ruling out all but the 2230K version he already
mentioned as having. I hadn't seen him state if his was dual-powered (Version B
-- produced 1953 - 65), and while this would be immaterial as it would still
be the 2230K version, if it were dual powered this could mean that it
could have been produced at some time after (1957) Sol Kramer took over
Varney's company (which may tell us why the side frames had zinc rot).

Could also indicate why your gear boxes developed zinc pest, even though
(in general) much of this problem came about from Zamac used during the
Korean War. While Gordon Varney had his share of "zinc pest," his castings
were usually problem-free because of his close attention paid to the alloy mix
that went into his kits, although he still had a small percentage of zinc
pest later developing. Even while Adams & Sons did much of the casting for
him, he was on top of things with these projects he farmed out, which is
why his castings most often held up. On the other hand, Sol Kramer didn't
pay quite as much attention to the way things were being produced with more
problems developing from his Varney products after a while, with him even
farming out these jobs to Japanese firms. It's already been established how
Bob's Tenshodo FT gear boxes crumbled.

The other three versions of the NW-2, with their sub-numbers/letters, and
the Twin Drive Kit were:
2552 NW-2 Switcher (factory assembled) - produced 1956 - 57

2258 Twin Drive Kit produced 1950 - 1952

2808 NW-2 Switcher produced 1960 - 63
2808NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
2808PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
2808SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

700 NW-2 Switcher - With KM-1 (Japanese) Motor produced 1962 - 65
700BO NW-2 Switcher - Baltimore & Ohio
700NH NW-2 Switcher - New Haven
700PRR NW-2 Switcher - Pennsylvania
700SF NW-2 Switcher - Santa Fe
700SP NW-2 Switcher - Southern Pacific

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:44:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Correction: B. should be 1953-65.
Charles E. â€œChuckâ€ Kinzer
Sent from _Mail_ (https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986) for
Windows 10

From: _trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]_
(

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26730	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray,

I was just looking at the Penn Line diesel photos on HO Seeker.

Were the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn shells?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26731	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray,

I thought the Varney F-3 power trucks were much the same as the switcher trucks.

But I have some trucks that were supposed to be F-7 trucks that are plastic (delrin). that look pretty good. I hope I can find them this week.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:26 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

I forgot to answer your last question, but to reply to it, in my estimation you can't beat Varney's three-piece power truck used in the die-cast F-3's. The NW-2 power trucks were still decent, but nothing like the F-3's power trucks. The Penn Line F-7 power trucks were always great though. I've never heard anything bad about them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26732	From: trainliker	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

Attachments :

I attached a photo of the Cary box cab on a Hustler frame for those who may not have ever seen one. (Looks like a coupler is bent a little and has a spring missing – easy fixes.)

To Brad, if you might be in need of photos of one of these for your article, I can take any sort of photos you want. Contact me off group if you want photos.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Digest Number 3948

Brad,

Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26733	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Ray.

Catalog, smatalog. My brother had his Brute by the time I received my Mantua Mikado, which was Christmas 1949. I know the year for certain as we were living in Appleton, WI when we had those locos and we moved to Green Bay in September 1950.

It is very possible both locos were Christmas gifts that year as it took sometime before Dad had assembled the Mikado so that Varney could have hit the rails sooner. I do know that as soon as my Mikado was on the rails I had to see if it could pull as much as the Brute.

That was a big deal for a then 6 year old boy to compete with his then 12 year old (5 year, 5 month age spread) big brother.

It probably would not have been unusual for a model to be introduced before a new catalog came, especially if it meant getting something on the market when Christmas was approaching.

So how did the very unscientific pull-off go? Well, the Varney Brute A unit and the Mantua Mike were very close. I’m not too certain if the Varney B unit was included. Digging up the Varney’s I recalled that the B unit, which did have the Brute gearbox and DC71 motor, was not an eight wheel drive unit. So it was sorta like Brute and a half.

But to be “Brutally” (pun intended) honest the A unit would always out pull the Mike somewhere or another on the layout we had. It seemed the Mike, with its rigid frame, would have less traction in certain areas.

Anyway, that original Mike went away sometime in the 80’s but I took possession of the Brute from my brother around the turn of the century and kept them until around 2005 when, due to some dire financials, I had to sell off a lot of items I now wish I hadn’t.

I agree comparing how much one loco vs another isn’t the intent of owning these great vintage pieces but it still is something of curiosity just for fun. I also agree that the Brute would out pull the Shark, twin motors all, with very little drama attached.

I do still have my brothers Lindsay NW2, albeit with the idler truck having a dead short in it. But, I have recently acquired an eight well drive conversion truck for it. I will at some (hopefully sooner than later) get it installed and test it out. The Lindsay switcher was another smooth and quiet runner but not a great puller, especially considering the weight of its cast brass shell.

I think I have two twin motored sharks. One in the original box with the factory applied “Tyco” paint scheme (is was a ready to run unit, hence the Tyco brand) but the other is either unpainted or painted in a non-prototype scheme obviously applied by a previous owner. Why am I not certain of that? Because I have a number of Sharks plus several shells. I even have a Hobbytown version, which will certainly be the powerhouse of the lot.

Anyway, an interesting subject.

John Hagen

PS. My brother tried to talk me into asking for a John English Mike for Christmas as it would have been appreciably cheaper. But I stuck to guns (cap pistols) and my letter to Santa specified a Mantua.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 8:31 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray Wetzel

Posted by: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
Reply via web post
•
Reply to sender
•
Reply to group
•
Start a New Topic
•
Messages in this topic (12)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

0.0.03.891140028y0txY6OJjo61xYR:00ccf5d2 E:4523839.1622371601 V:10f4.a8.1.1.16.1.US S:Amtrak 84

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26734	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

Attachments :

Combine the Cary shell with an Ernst gear set and you would have very nice loco. Noisy, but a good runner.

Thanks for the photo.

John Hagen.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 1:17 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Digest Number 3948

I attached a photo of the Cary box cab on a Hustler frame for those who may not have ever seen one. (Looks like a coupler is bent a little and has a spring missing – easy fixes.)

To Brad, if you might be in need of photos of one of these for your article, I can take any sort of photos you want. Contact me off group if you want photos.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Posted by: trainliker <ckinzer@...>

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (9)

Image removed by sender.

http://hoseeker.net/gallery/index.php?album=varney-and-penn-line%2Fvarney-diesels

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26735	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:09:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was just looking at the Penn Line diesel photos on HO Seeker.

Were the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn shells?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26736	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

What I see on eBay is Varney F-3 shells being sold as F-7s.

But on HO Seeker I see photos of the Penn Line shells that are F-7 shells.

But they are on the Penn Line page, not the Varney page.

Varney:

Penn Line:

http://hoseeker.net/gallery/index.php?album=varney-and-penn-line%2Fpenn-line-diesels

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 12:19 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:09:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was just looking at the Penn Line diesel photos on HO Seeker.

Were the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn shells?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26737	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3948

And a great puller.

Brad

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 1:47 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Combine the Cary shell with an Ernst gear set and you would have very nice loco. Noisy, but a good runner.
Thanks for the photo.
John Hagen.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 1:17 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Digest Number 3948

I attached a photo of the Cary box cab on a Hustler frame for those who may not have ever seen one. (Looks like a coupler is bent a little and has a spring missing – easy fixes.)

To Brad, if you might be in need of photos of one of these for your article, I can take any sort of photos you want. Contact me off group if you want photos.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Posted by: trainliker <ckinzer@...>
Reply via web post
•
Reply to sender
•
Reply to group
•
Start a New Topic
•
Messages in this topic (9)
<image001.jpg>
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
Visit Your Group
<image002.jpg>
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.
<image003.jpg>
<image003.jpg>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26738	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

When Penn Line was Penn Line, in the early 60’s, Athearn provided the twin headlight shells, painted by Athearn. That is why they are identical in the catalogs. Later, Penn Line produced their own. You can tell the difference by the front cab step on the F7. They are shorter on the Penn Line created body to clear the truck leaf spring.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 2:19 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:09:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was just looking at the Penn Line diesel photos on HO Seeker.

Were the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn shells?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26739	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Ray,

Just look at today’s HO world.

How many companies have SD40-2, various EMD switchers but little in the way of NW2’s, RTS3’s, F7’s, USRA light Mikes and the list goes on.

Yes it is nice to have a lot of choices of the various prototypes but do they all have to produce the same models?

Give me the good old days and all that diecast when you spent a lot less of your hard earned paycheck (even allowing for inflation) and if you wanted a specific loco you detailed it yourself.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 2:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26740	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

Originally, the F-3 power trucks for the diecast F-3 models having 1) the single power-truck spring belt/pulley drive, 2) the single power-truck gear drive and 3) the dual power-truck gear drive (Brute") all had the same 3-piece die-cast power truck (with die-cast side frames), up through 1957 -- if memory serves < g >. Conversely, the original NW-2 Switcher -- first introduced in 1950 and offered up to 1960 used a one-piece die-cast power truck having a shorter wheelbase and using shorter truck side frames. When the plastic F-3 (Catalog # 2813) was introduced in 1955 using the newly-patented (applied for in 1953, but not awarded until 1956) power truck/gear box having nylon worm and spur gears, it is noted that this same power truck was included later, in the NW-2 Switcher as of 1960. So yes, at some point in time (but not before 1960), the Varney F-3 and the Varney NW-2 used the same power truck. I'm not sure how the wheelbase of this truck compares with either of the two power trucks used with the earlier F-3 and NW-2 models, but as this new nylon-geared power truck uses similar, if not the same F-3 truck side frames, I'd have to say it has the same wheelbase as the earlier EMD F-3's -- making them too long for the NW-2.

For that matter, I don't know what sideframes were used with this power truck when used in the NW-2 although I suspect F-3 sideframes, not recalling having seen one (but understanding Kramer to be a cost-saver). Up until 1962, the Pittman DC-60 was used with the NW-2, but sometime during 1962 the motor was changed to the Japanese KM-1 motor. As per my Varney 1966 catalog (but not having any literature between the early 1960's and then -- and with Dave Spanagel not covering anything newer than the earlier '60's), I can tell you that Kramer came out with a dual powered SW-7 as per that year's catalog. The photos of it show it having switcher sideframes (and not F-3 sideframes), although I haven't seen a 1960 NW-2 to know what it used. only as I avoided (even at train shows) Varney products from these years in favor of what Gordon Varney produced.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:22:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I thought the Varney F-3 power trucks were much the same as the switcher trucks.

But I have some trucks that were supposed to be F-7 trucks that are plastic (delrin). that look pretty good. I hope I can find them this week.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:26 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

I forgot to answer your last question, but to reply to it, in my estimation you can't beat Varney's three-piece power truck used in the die-cast F-3's. The NW-2 power trucks were still decent, but nothing like the F-3's power trucks. The Penn Line F-7 power trucks were always great though. I've never heard anything bad about them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26741	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray,

I have a SW-7/NW-2 (whatever) that came with a add-on kit for the second power truck.

I also have F-3s with both single and dual trucks. I also have F-3 trucks that are the same as the switcher trucks. One piece castings.

Is there a way to identify the Jap motor?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 1:27 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

Originally, the F-3 power trucks for the diecast F-3 models having 1) the single power-truck spring belt/pulley drive, 2) the single power-truck gear drive and 3) the dual power-truck gear drive (Brute") all had the same 3-piece die-cast power truck (with die-cast side frames), up through 1957 -- if memory serves < g >. Conversely, the original NW-2 Switcher -- first introduced in 1950 and offered up to 1960 used a one-piece die-cast power truck having a shorter wheelbase and using shorter truck side frames.   When the plastic F-3 (Catalog # 2813) was introduced in 1955 using the newly-patented (applied for in 1953, but not awarded until 1956) power truck/gear box having nylon worm and spur gears, it is noted that this same power truck was included later, in the NW-2 Switcher as of 1960. So yes, at some point in time (but not before 1960), the Varney F-3 and the Varney NW-2 used the same power truck. I'm not sure how the wheelbase of this truck compares with either of the two power trucks used with the earlier F-3 and NW-2 models, but as this new nylon-geared power truck uses similar, if not the same F-3 truck side frames, I'd have to say it has the same wheelbase as the earlier EMD F-3's -- making them too long for the NW-2.

For that matter, I don't know what sideframes were used with this power truck when used in the NW-2 although I suspect F-3 sideframes, not recalling having seen one (but understanding Kramer to be a cost-saver). Up until 1962, the Pittman DC-60 was used with the NW-2, but sometime during 1962 the motor was changed to the Japanese KM-1 motor. As per my Varney 1966 catalog (but not having any literature between the early 1960's and then -- and with Dave Spanagel not covering anything newer than the earlier '60's), I can tell you that Kramer came out with a dual powered SW-7 as per that year's catalog. The photos of it show it having switcher sideframes (and not F-3 sideframes), although I haven't seen a 1960 NW-2 to know what it used. only as I avoided (even at train shows) Varney products from these years in favor of what Gordon Varney produced.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:22:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I thought the Varney F-3 power trucks were much the same as the switcher trucks.

But I have some trucks that were supposed to be F-7 trucks that are plastic (delrin). that look pretty good. I hope I can find them this week.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:26 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

I forgot to answer your last question, but to reply to it, in my estimation you can't beat Varney's three-piece power truck used in the die-cast F-3's. The NW-2 power trucks were still decent, but nothing like the F-3's power trucks. The Penn Line F-7 power trucks were always great though. I've never heard anything bad about them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26742	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Hello Bob and Ray,

Penn Line did use two different F7 shells over the years. The first one they used was from Athearn. It was on the single truck powered frame. When they came out with the dual powered trucks, they had their own F7 body. The most obvious difference was the smaller/shorter ladder steps along the side of the body. These steps held the motors in, until they broke. Then you had no way to have the motor stay with the body.

The Penn Line GP9 also used the Athearn shell.

Take care,

Chuck Higdon

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 3:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:09:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was just looking at the Penn Line diesel photos on HO Seeker.

Were the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn shells?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,
Jeff
Canada

--
"Defeats always teach lessons,
Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26743	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

John,

That's what I like to hear . . . first-hand accounts. Shows that Varney was way ahead in his production of models before he got to offer them in his catalogs. No doubting you at all, and had even wondered when Varney first produced some of his models vs his first offering them publicly. Sometimes we'll see things like this when we see an ad in MR offering a model that isn't in a manufacturer's catalog until the following year. Please don't blame the messenger < g >, I was only trying to show production as announced in the manufacturer's literature. I always enjoy seeing real-time anecdotes when things like this actually happened. Shows we can't always go by the manufacturers' time-frames, but it's all we got as "official" stuff.

I don't recall (or I missed?) you mentioning a Mantua Mikado before, but I do remember you pointing out the Mantua Shark. My guess is that the Mikado beat out the F-3 Brute only because of its weight (and better traction). As I read further though, I see that the Mike had traction problems in certain areas, possibly around curves(?). Could be too, that with the Brute having much smaller diameter drive wheels, it was able to grab the rail better.

The point you make about getting a model out for the Christmas Season is well taken and it appears that's what happened here. I know what you mean about having to sell some vintage stuff off. At one point I had no less than 32 Varney F-3's,. Now I'm down to six, but fortunately two of them have V-4 motors. I do like the spring belt drives ones though, partly because the ratio can be changed by the three-position pulleys and partly because you can slow them down to a crawl and they're still smooth running.

Yup, always a good subject to reflect on.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:51:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray.

Catalog, smatalog. My brother had his Brute by the time I received my Mantua Mikado, which was Christmas 1949. I know the year for certain as we were living in Appleton, WI when we had those locos and we moved to Green Bay in September 1950.

It is very possible both locos were Christmas gifts that year as it took sometime before Dad had assembled the Mikado so that Varney could have hit the rails sooner. I do know that as soon as my Mikado was on the rails I had to see if it could pull as much as the Brute.

That was a big deal for a then 6 year old boy to compete with his then 12 year old (5 year, 5 month age spread) big brother.

It probably would not have been unusual for a model to be introduced before a new catalog came, especially if it meant getting something on the market when Christmas was approaching.

So how did the very unscientific pull-off go? Well, the Varney Brute A unit and the Mantua Mike were very close. I’m not too certain if the Varney B unit was included. Digging up the Varney’s I recalled that the B unit, which did have the Brute gearbox and DC71 motor, was not an eight wheel drive unit. So it was sorta like Brute and a half.

But to be “Brutally” (pun intended) honest the A unit would always out pull the Mike somewhere or another on the layout we had. It seemed the Mike, with its rigid frame, would have less traction in certain areas.

Anyway, that original Mike went away sometime in the 80’s but I took possession of the Brute from my brother around the turn of the century and kept them until around 2005 when, due to some dire financials, I had to sell off a lot of items I now wish I hadn’t.

I agree comparing how much one loco vs another isn’t the intent of owning these great vintage pieces but it still is something of curiosity just for fun. I also agree that the Brute would out pull the Shark, twin motors all, with very little drama attached.

I do still have my brothers Lindsay NW2, albeit with the idler truck having a dead short in it. But, I have recently acquired an eight well drive conversion truck for it. I will at some (hopefully sooner than later) get it installed and test it out. The Lindsay switcher was another smooth and quiet runner but not a great puller, especially considering the weight of its cast brass shell.

I think I have two twin motored sharks. One in the original box with the factory applied “Tyco” paint scheme (is was a ready to run unit, hence the Tyco brand) but the other is either unpainted or painted in a non-prototype scheme obviously applied by a previous owner. Why am I not certain of that? Because I have a number of Sharks plus several shells. I even have a Hobbytown version, which will certainly be the powerhouse of the lot.

Anyway, an interesting subject.

John Hagen

PS. My brother tried to talk me into asking for a John English Mike for Christmas as it would have been appreciably cheaper. But I stuck to guns (cap pistols) and my letter to Santa specified a Mantua.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 8:31 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Wow, some of you guys appear to be still up very early in the morning (or very late at night). Received the reply below in my mailbox @ 1:05 AM (EST) but then I know some members are on the West Coast. Not meaning to get nit-picky, but for those who like to know when manufacturers first produced their products, Varney doesn't offer the F-3 Brute until including it in his 1950 catalog. None of the 1949 catalogs carries it, including the later 1949 4th Edition of the larger catalog nor the even later 1949 Miniature Edition. The F-3 was offered (since 1948), but with only one truck being powered (by a DC-60 motor). Spanagel states that "By 1949 an optional second geared truck was made available" (to be connected via a driveshaft), although Varney made no mention of it in his catalogs that year.

As I see it, to install DCC in a vintage locomotive like a Mantua Shark, just to see how much it can pull is defeating the purpose of owning a vintage engine. While this dual-motored Shark should undoubtedly pull much more that the usual single motor Shark, I tend to doubt that it would match the ability of the Varney Brute, only because Varney offered a weight to be installed over the second truck to increase pulling ability. The metal Shark has that metal post hanging down from inside the roof so a weight can't be installed, and the post isn't that massive (nor of a lead alloy) to add very much weight. Again, as Spanagel stated, "The fact that he [Gordon Varney] named the EMD F-3 A and F-3 B diesels 'Brute' was a testimony to their pulling capabilities." They're expected to pull a good load and they do! Still, adding a second motor to the Mantua Shark should be a big improvement (and one that I'm also planning to do with extra power trucks I've acquired).

Ray Wetzel

Posted by: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (12)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage..

.

0.0.03.891140028y0txY6OJjo61xYR:00ccf5d2 E:4523839.1622371601 V:10f4.a8.1.1.16.1.US S:Amtrak 84

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26744	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad,

Good to Know ! So then, this was before Sol Kramer bought part of Penn Line, when Bob Faust still owned the company.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:01:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

When Penn Line was Penn Line, in the early 60’s, Athearn provided the twin headlight shells, painted by Athearn. That is why they are identical in the catalogs. Later, Penn Line produced their own. You can tell the difference by the front cab step on the F7. They are shorter on the Penn Line created body to clear the truck leaf spring.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 2:19 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:09:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was just looking at the Penn Line diesel photos on HO Seeker.

Were the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn shells?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26745	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

Now You're Talkin' -- you got the right idea. Willing to bet that's part of why most of us are into vintage H0. Besides most of today's stuff being way too expensive, even when considering yesterday's money with today's, and most of it being DCC, many companies seem to produce the same models. Many also produce models of contemporary trains too, which I'm not into modeling. I prefer modeling in the steam-diesel transition era when all classes of locomotives ran -- and the model that were produced at that time fit right in. Not only is there a certain "charm" about them, but you're able to work with them in creating detail you want to include.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:06:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Just look at today’s HO world.

How many companies have SD40-2, various EMD switchers but little in the way of NW2’s, RTS3’s, F7’s, USRA light Mikes and the list goes on.

Yes it is nice to have a lot of choices of the various prototypes but do they all have to produce the same models?

Give me the good old days and all that diecast when you spent a lot less of your hard earned paycheck (even allowing for inflation) and if you wanted a specific loco you detailed it yourself.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 2:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26746	From: trainliker	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Somebody really needs to make some master “who begat who” model railroad chart similar to the attached chart derived from the one in the movie “School of Rock”.

A perfect job for somebody with too much time on their hands? (Like people who grabbed a screen shot of the blackboard in the movie and transcribed it.) But a peek at the contents of HO Seeker might give a hint how complex the chart will have to be.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 2:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad,

Good to Know ! So then, this was before Sol Kramer bought part of Penn Line, when Bob Faust still owned the company.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:01:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

When Penn Line was Penn Line, in the early 60’s, Athearn provided the twin headlight shells, painted by Athearn. That is why they are identical in the catalogs. Later, Penn Line produced their own. You can tell the difference by the front cab step on the F7. They are shorter on the Penn Line created body to clear the truck leaf spring.

Brad Smith
Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 2:19 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:09:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was just looking at the Penn Line diesel photos on HO Seeker.

Were the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn shells?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,
Jeff
Canada

--
"Defeats always teach lessons,
Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26747	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the info. Easy to see I'm no expert on Penn Line models, especially the diesels. Didn't know about the shorter ladders and breaking them meant not holding the motor in place. They did seem to have a good reputation for running well though.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:53:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello Bob and Ray,

Penn Line did use two different F7 shells over the years. The first one they used was from Athearn. It was on the single truck powered frame. When they came out with the dual powered trucks, they had their own F7 body. The most obvious difference was the smaller/shorter ladder steps along the side of the body. These steps held the motors in, until they broke. Then you had no way to have the motor stay with the body.

The Penn Line GP9 also used the Athearn shell.

Take care,

Chuck Higdon

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 3:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:09:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was just looking at the Penn Line diesel photos on HO Seeker.

Were the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn shells?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26748	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob, The only feature I can tell you about the Japanese KM-1 motor is that it came with a plastic spur gear mounted on the shaft. Yes, I know, Varney used plastic gears on some of his other models, but his earlier ones had bronze (brass?) gears. I don't recall having ever seen one, but the best suggestion I can give you is to familiarize yourself with the quality Pittman DC-60 and DC-71 motors. The workmanship kind of jumps right out at you; they're well made. One thing I can tell you is that the Japanese motor only came with the NW-2 having the newer (longer) one-piece truck casting having the nylon gears. As far as I'm aware this truck used in these NW-2's have the same wheelbase as a Varney F-3 (any Varney F-3) -- which is longer than all other NW-2's produced before 1960, whether it has a plastic gear or not.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 5:01:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I have a SW-7/NW-2 (whatever) that came with a add-on kit for the second power truck.

I also have F-3s with both single and dual trucks. I also have F-3 trucks that are the same as the switcher trucks. One piece castings.

Is there a way to identify the Jap motor?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 1:27 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

Originally, the F-3 power trucks for the diecast F-3 models having 1) the single power-truck spring belt/pulley drive, 2) the single power-truck gear drive and 3) the dual power-truck gear drive (Brute") all had the same 3-piece die-cast power truck (with die-cast side frames), up through 1957 -- if memory serves < g >. Conversely, the original NW-2 Switcher -- first introduced in 1950 and offered up to 1960 used a one-piece die-cast power truck having a shorter wheelbase and using shorter truck side frames.   When the plastic F-3 (Catalog # 2813) was introduced in 1955 using the newly-patented (applied for in 1953, but not awarded until 1956) power truck/gear box having nylon worm and spur gears, it is noted that this same power truck was included later, in the NW-2 Switcher as of 1960. So yes, at some point in time (but not before 1960), the Varney F-3 and the Varney NW-2 used the same power truck. I'm not sure how the wheelbase of this truck compares with either of the two power trucks used with the earlier F-3 and NW-2 models, but as this new nylon-geared power truck uses similar, if not the same F-3 truck side frames, I'd have to say it has the same wheelbase as the earlier EMD F-3's -- making them too long for the NW-2.

For that matter, I don't know what sideframes were used with this power truck when used in the NW-2 although I suspect F-3 sideframes, not recalling having seen one (but understanding Kramer to be a cost-saver). Up until 1962, the Pittman DC-60 was used with the NW-2, but sometime during 1962 the motor was changed to the Japanese KM-1 motor. As per my Varney 1966 catalog (but not having any literature between the early 1960's and then -- and with Dave Spanagel not covering anything newer than the earlier '60's), I can tell you that Kramer came out with a dual powered SW-7 as per that year's catalog. The photos of it show it having switcher sideframes (and not F-3 sideframes), although I haven't seen a 1960 NW-2 to know what it used. only as I avoided (even at train shows) Varney products from these years in favor of what Gordon Varney produced.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:22:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I thought the Varney F-3 power trucks were much the same as the switcher trucks.

But I have some trucks that were supposed to be F-7 trucks that are plastic (delrin). that look pretty good. I hope I can find them this week.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:26 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

I forgot to answer your last question, but to reply to it, in my estimation you can't beat Varney's three-piece power truck used in the die-cast F-3's. The NW-2 power trucks were still decent, but nothing like the F-3's power trucks. The Penn Line F-7 power trucks were always great though. I've never heard anything bad about them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?

Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,

Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26749	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/6/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

In my album titled Penn Line F7 you can see the brass tab and the short step.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/photostream/lightbox/1764423239?orderBy=mtime&sortOrder=desc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/1390489302

My first diesels were Penn Line units.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:28 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hi Chuck,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:53:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello Bob and Ray,
Penn Line did use two different F7 shells over the years. The first one they used was from Athearn. It was on the single truck powered frame. When they came out with the dual powered trucks, they had their own F7 body. The most obvious difference was the smaller/shorter ladder steps along the side of the body. These steps held the motors in, until they broke. Then you had no way to have the motor stay with the body.
The Penn Line GP9 also used the Athearn shell.
Take care,
Chuck Higdon
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 3:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,
No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.
Ray Wetzel
In a message dated 2/6/2018 2:09:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,
I was just looking at the Penn Line diesel photos on HO Seeker.
Were the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn shells?
Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,
The Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was NOT a plastic Varney F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out Varney in 1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion of Penn Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29, 1964 auction (with Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew English (Bowser) acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine portion of the Penn Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn Line F-7 diesel shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was previously using with the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until 1965 (some roadnames of this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL, FEC, and CRI&P). These can be identified as having two headlights and screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of where "chicken wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the Penn Line frame and power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells and sold under Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in B&O, C&NW, ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer used these same models for his Life-Like line of models.
Ray Wetzel
In a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:
Was the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a F-7?
Were the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the earlier F-3 and SW trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but have not done anything with yet.
Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Jeff,
Yes, precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two power trucks connected by a drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two motors. I had thought about clarifying that very notion, but sent on the message without it. Similar in concept to the F-3 "Brute" (both, # 2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one motor and powering a second truck through a drive shaft.
Ray
In a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,
By twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second truck, not like a Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having it's own motor?
Thanks,
Jeff
Canada
--
"Defeats always teach lessons,
Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26750	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Why am I into vintage HO? That period was the best for my thinking. I appreciated the trains more. I shoveled show to buy an Athearn boxcar. I loved those old engines. It was fun. Later in life, I could buy an engine and it just wasn’t the same. I started out with Strombecker and then a Gilbert HO 0-6-0 that I wore the flanges off of. Then Mantua came out with their F unit, which was so nice back then. I still have the Mantua and it still runs. I bought used stuff after that. English, Lionel, etc. All were crap for runners, but they looked nice. I guess that I appreciated the trains more back then.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 4:22 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John,

Now You're Talkin' -- you got the right idea. Willing to bet that's part of why most of us are into vintage H0. Besides most of today's stuff being way too expensive, even when considering yesterday's money with today's, and most of it being DCC, many companies seem to produce the same models. Many also produce models of contemporary trains too, which I'm not into modeling. I prefer modeling in the steam-diesel transition era when all classes of locomotives ran -- and the model that were produced at that time fit right in. Not only is there a certain "charm" about them, but you're able to work with them in creating detail you want to include.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:06:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Just look at today’s HO world.

How many companies have SD40-2, various EMD switchers but little in the way of NW2’s, RTS3’s, F7’s, USRA light Mikes and the list goes on.

Yes it is nice to have a lot of choices of the various prototypes but do they all have to produce the same models?

Give me the good old days and all that diecast when you spent a lot less of your hard earned paycheck (even allowing for inflation) and if you wanted a specific loco you detailed it yourself.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 2:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26751	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

I started in 1948 with a Varney Dockside for my 12th birthday.

When I was in the USAF (1952-1958) I built a Roundhouse 0-6-0 that sat on my fathers desk for over 10 years (until he retired). While I in Korea (1953) I got a Penn Line K-4 Pacific which I traded for a set od Tenshodo FTs. I should have kept the K-4.

In December 1955 I was stationed at Edwards AFB. A friend lived in Pasadena. He took me to the Whistle Stop. I saw the Globe F-7. I bought one for $10. I still have it. I loved it because it stayed on the track.

I have had Varney SWs an F-3s. But the Globe F-7 seemed like a better engine.

I think the Athearn SW-7 is better than a Varney Yard Switcher.

But I still like playing with the older (metal) Varney stuff.

I do have a Varney Casey Jones 4-6-0. I want to find an Old Lady 2-8-0. But right now I don't have the money.

And I really have enough to play with anyway!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:49 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Why am I into vintage HO? That period was the best for my thinking. I appreciated the trains more. I shoveled show to buy an Athearn boxcar. I loved those old engines. It was fun. Later in life, I could buy an engine and it just wasn’t the same. I started out with Strombecker and then a Gilbert HO 0-6-0 that I wore the flanges off of. Then Mantua came out with their F unit, which was so nice back then. I still have the Mantua and it still runs. I bought used stuff after that. English, Lionel, etc. All were crap for runners, but they looked nice. I guess that I appreciated the trains more back then.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 4:22 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John,

Now You're Talkin' -- you got the right idea. Willing to bet that's part of why most of us are into vintage H0. Besides most of today's stuff being way too expensive, even when considering yesterday's money with today's, and most of it being DCC, many companies seem to produce the same models. Many also produce models of contemporary trains too, which I'm not into modeling. I prefer modeling in the steam-diesel transition era when all classes of locomotives ran -- and the model that were produced at that time fit right in. Not only is there a certain "charm" about them, but you're able to work with them in creating detail you want to include.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:06:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Just look at today’s HO world.

How many companies have SD40-2, various EMD switchers but little in the way of NW2’s, RTS3’s, F7’s, USRA light Mikes and the list goes on.

Yes it is nice to have a lot of choices of the various prototypes but do they all have to produce the same models?

Give me the good old days and all that diecast when you spent a lot less of your hard earned paycheck (even allowing for inflation) and if you wanted a specific loco you detailed it yourself.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 2:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26752	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Brad.

Back in I’d guess 1974 -75 I bought a Tyco train set for my born in 1969 son. I looked for Tyco F7 set thinking that it still was selling the old Mantua line. Well, for steam locos they were (still too early for the really crappy stuff) but they had replaced that original Mantua power truck with some plastic POS with external spur gears. Well, I put it all on the required 4 X 8 plywood, added a siding or two and a couple of structures and away we went. For a time that is. It didn’t take all that long, probably 2 -3 months before the F7 would start making some rather nasty, squealing noises and slow down to practically nothing. Only then did I actually turn that demon over and see the plastic crap they used instead of that ho-so-reliable Mantua power truck.

It was then that I started to appreciate Athearn and their then still rather new, reasonably priced F7’s, albeit more than the Tyco at the time. But, ya gets what ya pays for.

That was It for Tyco/Mantua for me until John Tyler purchased (repurchased?) the line.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 7:49 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad Smith

Posted by: Corlissbs <corlissbs@...>

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (35)

Image removed by sender.

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26753	From: cwrailman	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I am not sure what this has to do with regearing of a particular model. I have often wondered how and why discussions on this board get so far off the original topic. Can’t anyone stay on topic or is this forum just gotten to be a portal for everyone to air their thoughts for the day on vintage models? If so then change the topic line.

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26754	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad,

Couldn't help but to get back here on the topic when I read your comment about StromBecker. While I had 0-27 earlier, I too started out with StromBecker and enjoyed building and displaying them in the late '40's. I never did put H0 trucks under them, but then, I had nothing to run them on then if I did. While StromBecker's H0 size models were rather rudimentary, they still looked quite decent for what they were (wood & cardboard). For a young kid like me back then, they were priced right too, at around 25 cents a kit if I remember right. A couple of years later I bought my first, what I considered to be an actual "scale" freight car (not that StromBecker wasn't H0 scal, or very close to it), and that was a Varney metal box car which I thought looked so close to the prototype back then. This was even before I had an H0 engine, but I did buy a section or two of brass flex track.

The first loco I bought was a Varney Dockside only because, while I'd have rather had a Varney NW-2 or F-3, both of these were priced at $19.75 and the Dockside was "only" $15.00. While this $4.75 difference sounds like peanuts today, it was a huge difference back then -- when everyone's dads only made about an average of $50 a week. Not saying that I was able to rely on my dad to but it for me, but I shows what $4.75 was worth back then. It took me a good while to save up that $15 for chores I did. It would have taken me many more months to save that extra $4.75 if I held off for a diesel switcher or F-Unit. Besides, even though diesels were already coming in by then, it was still all steam on the NYC's West Shore RR and the Erie RR in this area -- and which I enjoyed (and preferred modeling) the most. I wasn't keen on seeing these diesels take over steam at that time, even though I did like the looks of the streamliners (I first rode the Silver Meteor from New York to Florida [and return] in 1942 behind SAL E-3's.

Whenever I buy an issue of MR, I'd dream about getting a Bowser brass Mountain or a Challenger, but that was about all I could do as they were priced prohibitively for a kid not even in his teens yet. The Bowser brass M-1 Mountain was going for $37.50 and the Bowser Challenger was priced at $52.50. I would have probably taken me a year or so to get a Bowser Mountain.

Many years later (in 1956), having seen an ad in MR about Bowser going out of business, I wrote Bill Bowser (in Redlands, CA) and he sent me a sale brochure with the locos discounted as a going out of business sale. Along with it, he set me a letter, which I still have and which may be of interest to some here. I'll write it here below, but before doing so, I'd just like to mention what a couple of these sale prices were; NYC K-11 Pacific - $17.50 (regular $27.50) and UP ARC-1 Challenger - 37.50 (regular $52.50). The Semi-Vanderbilt tender was on sale for $3.95 (less trucks).

Bill Bowser's letter, quite possibly (or not?) a "form letter" as it wasn't addressed to me personally, was dated December 1, 1956:

"Dear Mr. Railroader,

Many thanks for your inquiry regarding our 'going out of business' sale. Enclosed herewith our brochure describing the locomotives, tenders and terms of sale.

At this writing we are out of stock on the ARC-1 and the K-11 Pacific.

We have a large stock of parts and we are packaging as many kits as is possible. WEe have quite a few orders on hand and we are attempting to fill these. We are unable to promise delivery on the ARC-1 and the K-11 Pacific however we will make every effort to fill those orders received during the month of December. We will accept no more orders after December 22nd.

The articulated boiler casting will vary from the standard in the firebox, there will be a milled slot. The firebox is drilled and tapped to take a brass stamping simulating a cover plate. This has one advantage as it permits removal of the plate to remove and replace motor brushes without removing the entire boiler. These boilers were processed for a special project and are the only ones we have in stock. This modification will appear as the rough sketch below:

(I have no means to scan this sketch that Bill Bowser included, but basically it covers the area from the cab, on down to the bottom of the firebox, and about 3/8" forward of the cab. -- R.W.)

In the event that you do order from us, we will make every effort to fill it, however we cannot at this time guarantee delivery. Also, we estimate it will take at least three weeks to fill orders. Your money will be held until shipment is made or returned to you."

BOWSER MANUFACTURING COMPANY

PO Box 234

Redlands, California (end of letter)

By this, it appears Bowser must have been swamped by requests for loco kits. After Lew English took over Bowser, there was a large span of time in the 1970's during which he produced no Challenger kits -- and you couldn't buy one for any amount of money -- they just weren't available. Any used ones that were available from modelers could often go for a premium. I was fortunate in hearing "through the grapevine," that the owner of a very large hobby shop in Beacon, NY -- by the name of "Hobbies For Men" -- was selling his Bowser Challenger, and so I wasted no time driving up there and paying him a visit -- buying this loco. At that time, "Hobbies For Men" was taking out full page ads in MR, sometimes even on the back cover, just to illustrate how large of a hobby shop it was; it was quite famous in the Northeast. You can bet I wasted no time beating a path up there.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/7/2018 9:10:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Why am I into vintage HO? That period was the best for my thinking. I appreciated the trains more. I shoveled show to buy an Athearn boxcar. I loved those old engines. It was fun. Later in life, I could buy an engine and it just wasn’t the same. I started out with Strombecker and then a Gilbert HO 0-6-0 that I wore the flanges off of. Then Mantua came out with their F unit, which was so nice back then. I still have the Mantua and it still runs. I bought used stuff after that. English, Lionel, etc. All were crap for runners, but they looked nice. I guess that I appreciated the trains more back then.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 4:22 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John,

Now You're Talkin' -- you got the right idea. Willing to bet that's part of why most of us are into vintage H0. Besides most of today's stuff being way too expensive, even when considering yesterday's money with today's, and most of it being DCC, many companies seem to produce the same models. Many also produce models of contemporary trains too, which I'm not into modeling. I prefer modeling in the steam-diesel transition era when all classes of locomotives ran -- and the model that were produced at that time fit right in. Not only is there a certain "charm" about them, but you're able to work with them in creating detail you want to include.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:06:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Just look at today’s HO world.

How many companies have SD40-2, various EMD switchers but little in the way of NW2’s, RTS3’s, F7’s, USRA light Mikes and the list goes on.

Yes it is nice to have a lot of choices of the various prototypes but do they all have to produce the same models?

Give me the good old days and all that diecast when you spent a lot less of your hard earned paycheck (even allowing for inflation) and if you wanted a specific loco you detailed it yourself.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 2:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26755	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Denny,

Yes you are correct in that someone, probably myself, as I often express the same thing, should have changed the subject.

I did not for this post as it is in reply to you and I will orate about the subject below. If I do add to the discussion about the history of our vintage trains in a future post, I will change the subject line if it hasn’t already been done..

I am not really aware of any way to re-gear a Varney NW2 (Varney Switcher). Since I haven’t even determined of what vintage the particular loco is question is I do not which truck/gar box style it is.

But, since I haven’t found or heard of any available parts for either style, it all becomes a tad on the moot side. Yes, it may be possible to use gears/worms designed for other uses and adapt them but that would likely require at least some machine work.

I am of the opinion that the best way to make a Varney NW2 into a sweet runner would be investing into a Hobbytown switcher drive. Yes, it’ll take some bucks and require careful assembly including FOLLOWING THE DIRECTIONS CLOSELY but not any actual machining.

The only other suggestion I would have would be to see if an Athearn drive could be used. While it would require some amount of fitting and filing, etc, it shouldn’t require and actual machine tools to do. I think. I don’t as I haven’t tried either of these suggestions but it seems one or the other should work.

I think the discussions on the group can get so far afield is the near uncontrollable desire to discuss these early pieces almost as if they were pets. Which, in some cases, I believe they are.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:38 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26756	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

I got my Varney Dockside for my 12th birthday in 1946. $9.95? I got a Strombeker Rock Island Rocket. I used Varney freight trucks on it.

I remember the late 40's freight car kits that were a few blocks of wood with cardboard sides. They still show up on eBay.

In the late 40's I cut lawns for 25 cents! It took 4 lawns to get a dollar!

I worked for the SP in San Francisco during the summers of 1951 and 1952. The SP was running steam at that time. I went into the USAF in August 1952. When I got out of the USAF in October 1958 the SP has dieslized.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:03 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad,

Couldn't help but to get back here on the topic when I read your comment about StromBecker. While I had 0-27 earlier, I too started out with StromBecker and enjoyed building and displaying them in the late '40's. I never did put H0 trucks under them, but then, I had nothing to run them on then if I did. While StromBecker's H0 size models were rather rudimentary, they still looked quite decent for what they were (wood & cardboard). For a young kid like me back then, they were priced right too, at around 25 cents a kit if I remember right.  A couple of years later I bought my first, what I considered to be an actual "scale" freight car (not that StromBecker wasn't H0 scal, or very close to it), and that was a Varney metal box car which I thought looked so close to the prototype back then. This was even before I had an H0 engine, but I did buy a section or two of brass flex track.

The first loco I bought was a Varney Dockside only because, while I'd have rather had a Varney NW-2 or F-3, both of these were priced at $19.75 and the Dockside was "only" $15.00. While this $4.75 difference sounds like peanuts today, it was a huge difference back then -- when everyone's dads only made about an average of $50 a week. Not saying that I was able to rely on my dad to but it for me, but I shows what $4.75 was worth back then. It took me a good while to save up that $15 for chores I did. It would have taken me many more months to save that extra $4.75 if I held off for a diesel switcher or F-Unit.  Besides, even though diesels were already coming in by then, it was still all steam on the NYC's West Shore RR and the Erie RR in this area -- and which I enjoyed (and preferred modeling) the most. I wasn't keen on seeing these diesels take over steam at that time, even though I did like the looks of the streamliners (I first rode the Silver Meteor from New York to Florida [and return] in 1942 behind SAL E-3's.

Whenever I buy an issue of MR, I'd dream about getting a Bowser brass Mountain or a Challenger, but that was about all I could do as they were priced prohibitively for a kid not even in his teens yet.  The Bowser brass M-1 Mountain was going for $37.50 and the Bowser Challenger was priced at $52.50. I would have probably taken me a year or so to get a Bowser Mountain.

Many years later (in 1956), having seen an ad in MR about Bowser going out of business, I wrote Bill Bowser (in Redlands, CA) and he sent me a sale brochure with the locos discounted as a going out of business sale. Along with it, he set me a letter, which I still have and which may be of interest to some here. I'll write it here below, but before doing so, I'd just like to mention what a couple of these sale prices were; NYC K-11 Pacific - $17.50 (regular $27.50) and UP ARC-1 Challenger - 37.50 (regular $52.50). The Semi-Vanderbilt tender was on sale for $3.95 (less trucks).

Bill Bowser's letter, quite possibly (or not?) a "form letter" as it wasn't addressed to me personally, was dated December 1, 1956:

"Dear Mr. Railroader,

Many thanks for your inquiry regarding our 'going out of business' sale. Enclosed herewith our brochure describing the locomotives, tenders and terms of sale.

At this writing we are out of stock on the ARC-1 and the K-11 Pacific.

We have a large stock of parts and we are packaging as many kits as is possible. WEe have quite a few orders on hand and we are attempting to fill these. We are unable to promise delivery on the ARC-1 and the K-11 Pacific however we will make every effort to fill those orders received during the month of December. We will accept no more orders after December 22nd.

The articulated boiler casting will vary from the standard in the firebox, there will be a milled slot. The firebox is drilled and tapped to take a brass stamping simulating a cover plate. This has one advantage as it permits removal of the plate to remove and replace motor brushes without removing the entire boiler. These boilers were processed for a special project and are the only ones we have in stock. This modification will appear as the rough sketch below:

(I have no means to scan this sketch that Bill Bowser included, but basically it covers the area from the cab, on down to the bottom of the firebox, and about 3/8" forward of the cab. -- R.W.)

In the event that you do order from us, we will make every effort to fill it, however we cannot at this time guarantee delivery. Also, we estimate it will take at least three weeks to fill orders.  Your money will be held until shipment is made or returned to you."

BOWSER MANUFACTURING COMPANY

PO Box 234

Redlands, California   (end of letter)

By this, it appears Bowser must have been swamped by requests for loco kits. After Lew English took over Bowser, there was a large span of time in the 1970's during which he produced no Challenger kits -- and you couldn't buy one for any amount of money -- they just weren't available. Any used ones that were available from modelers could often go for a premium. I was fortunate in hearing "through the grapevine," that the owner of a very large hobby shop in Beacon, NY -- by the name of "Hobbies For Men" -- was selling his Bowser Challenger, and so I wasted no time driving up there and paying him a visit -- buying this loco. At that time, "Hobbies For Men" was taking out full page ads in MR, sometimes even on the back cover, just to illustrate how large of a hobby shop it was; it was quite famous in the Northeast. You can bet I wasted no time beating a path up there.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 2/7/2018 9:10:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Why am I into vintage HO? That period was the best for my thinking. I appreciated the trains more. I shoveled show to buy an Athearn boxcar. I loved those old engines. It was fun. Later in life, I could buy an engine and it just wasn’t the same. I started out with Strombecker and then a Gilbert HO 0-6-0 that I wore the flanges off of. Then Mantua came out with their F unit, which was so nice back then.. I still have the Mantua and it still runs. I bought used stuff after that. English, Lionel, etc. All were crap for runners, but they looked nice. I guess that I appreciated the trains more back then.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 6, 2018, at 4:22 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John,

Now You're Talkin' -- you got the right idea. Willing to bet that's part of why most of us are into vintage H0. Besides most of today's stuff being way too expensive, even when considering yesterday's money with today's, and most of it being DCC, many companies seem to produce the same models. Many also produce models of contemporary trains too, which I'm not into modeling. I prefer modeling in the steam-diesel transition era when all classes of locomotives ran -- and the model that were produced at that time fit right in. Not only is there a certain "charm" about them, but you're able to work with them in creating detail you want to include.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:06:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Just look at today’s HO world.

How many companies have SD40-2, various EMD switchers but little in the way of NW2’s, RTS3’s, F7’s, USRA light Mikes and the list goes on.

Yes it is nice to have a lot of choices of the various prototypes but do they all have to produce the same models?

Give me the good old days and all that diecast when you spent a lot less of your hard earned paycheck (even allowing for inflation) and if you wanted a specific loco you detailed it yourself.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 2:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

No, as far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the Athearn shells. Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying shells from him, and had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling to produce his own F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7 shells though, starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label and having one headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual headlights -- and introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as Kramer introduced his. If someone can add to this, I'm always open to learning.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26757	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Any of us, myself included, could (and should) have changed the subject line once the thread started to wander. Had I seen Denny's post as a reminder, concerning this before I sent my last message I would have done so, but I estimate I started my message somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM EDT, about 5 to 10 minutes before his message was posted, and I didn't finish until 2:20 PM EDT when I sent it. While I wrote a considerable amount, a fair amount of that time was taken when, half way though I decided to write about Bill Bowser's letter and I had to go upstairs to find it in my files -- then had a cup of coffee when I came back down. Right after I sent my message, I then noticed Denny's message in my Inbox. I'm usually on the alert for these things, but when the weaving thread became quite active and interesting I hadn't even looked for the subject, intending to keep the momentum going. We all should pay attention to the subject though and when we see it start changing the first one to notice the change ought to make note of it in that line. Please note I wrote "Off Subject" in the Subject Line -- not Off Topic, -- which is when the message(s) doesn't even pertain to the group's purpose and has no relevance.

Getting back to the subject at hand (original subject as in the subject line), I totally agree about installing a Hobbytown drive if the Varney drive is not operating as expected. Then too, and while it may have been stated back when this subject was first started, I'm not even sure which Varney drive is in this NW-2 in question. I've never had a problem (except perhaps some noise) with the original Varney NW-2 drive (having brass gears) produced in 1950 and shortly thereafter. For that matter, installing that second power truck makes a big improvement. I much prefer the earlier Varney products made by Gordon Varney over anything that Sol Kramer produced. I do have Kramer's Varney GG1 kit though, but then it's engineered to be a reproduction of Bob Faust's Penn Line model. Otherwise, I stay far away from Varney products made after the Spring of 1957.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/7/2018 2:32:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Denny,

Yes you are correct in that someone, probably myself, as I often express the same thing, should have changed the subject.

I did not for this post as it is in reply to you and I will orate about the subject below. If I do add to the discussion about the history of our vintage trains in a future post, I will change the subject line if it hasn’t already been done..

I am not really aware of any way to re-gear a Varney NW2 (Varney Switcher). Since I haven’t even determined of what vintage the particular loco is question is I do not which truck/gar box style it is.

But, since I haven’t found or heard of any available parts for either style, it all becomes a tad on the moot side. Yes, it may be possible to use gears/worms designed for other uses and adapt them but that would likely require at least some machine work.

I am of the opinion that the best way to make a Varney NW2 into a sweet runner would be investing into a Hobbytown switcher drive. Yes, it’ll take some bucks and require careful assembly including FOLLOWING THE DIRECTIONS CLOSELY but not any actual machining.

The only other suggestion I would have would be to see if an Athearn drive could be used. While it would require some amount of fitting and filing, etc, it shouldn’t require and actual machine tools to do. I think. I don’t as I haven’t tried either of these suggestions but it seems one or the other should work.

I think the discussions on the group can get so far afield is the near uncontrollable desire to discuss these early pieces almost as if they were pets. Which, in some cases, I believe they are.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:38 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I am not sure what this has to do with regearing of a particular model. I have often wondered how and why discussions on this board get so far off the original topic. Can’t anyone stay on topic or is this forum just gotten to be a portal for everyone to air their thoughts for the day on vintage models? If so then change the topic line.

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26758	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

My last Varney Yard Switcher was a poor runner. And compared to an Athearn SW-7 it was noisy. It had the one piece trucks.

What I am looking at doing is replacing the axel gears with NWSL delrin gears and using NWSL brass worms.

Another difference between the Varney switcher and the Athearn switcher is the Varney switcher only has 4 wheel pickup where the Athearn switcher has 8 wheel pickup. Fixing this may be more difficult. Maybe adding track wipers.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 2:12 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Any of us, myself included, could (and should) have changed the subject line once the thread started to wander. Had I seen Denny's post as a reminder, concerning this before I sent my last message I would have done so, but I estimate I started my message somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM EDT, about 5 to 10 minutes before his message was posted, and I didn't finish until 2:20 PM EDT when I sent it. While I wrote a considerable amount, a fair amount of that time was taken when, half way though I decided to write about Bill Bowser's letter and I had to go upstairs to find it in my files -- then had a cup of coffee when I came back down. Right after I sent my message, I then noticed Denny's message in my Inbox. I'm usually on the alert for these things, but when the weaving thread became quite active and interesting I hadn't even looked for the subject, intending to keep the momentum going. We all should pay attention to the subject though and when we see it start changing the first one to notice the change ought to make note of it in that line. Please note I wrote "Off Subject" in the Subject Line -- not Off Topic, -- which is when the message(s) doesn't even pertain to the group's purpose and has no relevance.

Getting back to the subject at hand (original subject as in the subject line), I totally agree about installing a Hobbytown drive if the Varney drive is not operating as expected. Then too, and while it may have been stated back when this subject was first started, I'm not even sure which Varney drive is in this NW-2 in question. I've never had a problem (except perhaps some noise) with the original Varney NW-2 drive  (having brass gears) produced in 1950 and shortly thereafter. For that matter, installing that second power truck makes a big improvement. I much prefer the earlier Varney products made by Gordon Varney over anything that Sol Kramer produced. I do have Kramer's Varney GG1 kit though, but then it's engineered to be a reproduction of Bob Faust's Penn Line model. Otherwise, I stay far away from Varney products made after the Spring of 1957.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 2/7/2018 2:32:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Denny,

Yes you are correct in that someone, probably myself, as I often express the same thing, should have changed the subject.

I did not for this post as it is in reply to you and I will orate about the subject below. If I do add to the discussion about the history of our vintage trains in a future post, I will change the subject line if it hasn’t already been done..

I am not really aware of any way to re-gear a Varney NW2 (Varney Switcher). Since I haven’t even determined of what vintage the particular loco is question is I do not which truck/gar box style it is.

But, since I haven’t found or heard of any available parts for either style, it all becomes a tad on the moot side. Yes, it may be possible to use gears/worms designed for other uses and adapt them but that would likely require at least some machine work.

I am of the opinion that the best way to make a Varney NW2 into a sweet runner would be investing into a Hobbytown switcher drive. Yes, it’ll take some bucks and require careful assembly including FOLLOWING THE DIRECTIONS CLOSELY but not any actual machining.

The only other suggestion I would have would be to see if an Athearn drive could be used. While it would require some amount of fitting and filing, etc, it shouldn’t require and actual machine tools to do. I think. I don’t as I haven’t tried either of these suggestions but it seems one or the other should work.

I think the discussions on the group can get so far afield is the near uncontrollable desire to discuss these early pieces almost as if they were pets. Which, in some cases, I believe they are.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:38 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I am not sure what this has to do with regearing of a particular model. I have often wondered how and why discussions on this board get so far off the original topic. Can’t anyone stay on topic or is this forum just gotten to be a portal for everyone to air their thoughts for the day on vintage models?   If so then change the topic line.

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26759	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Will an Athearn drive fit into the Varney body, with modifications?

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 7, 2018, at 4:34 PM, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

My last Varney Yard Switcher was a poor runner. And compared to an Athearn SW-7 it was noisy. It had the one piece trucks.

What I am looking at doing is replacing the axel gears with NWSL delrin gears and using NWSL brass worms.

Another difference between the Varney switcher and the Athearn switcher is the Varney switcher only has 4 wheel pickup where the Athearn switcher has 8 wheel pickup. Fixing this may be more difficult. Maybe adding track wipers.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 2:12 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Any of us, myself included, could (and should) have changed the subject line once the thread started to wander. Had I seen Denny's post as a reminder, concerning this before I sent my last message I would have done so, but I estimate I started my message somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM EDT, about 5 to 10 minutes before his message was posted, and I didn't finish until 2:20 PM EDT when I sent it. While I wrote a considerable amount, a fair amount of that time was taken when, half way though I decided to write about Bill Bowser's letter and I had to go upstairs to find it in my files -- then had a cup of coffee when I came back down. Right after I sent my message, I then noticed Denny's message in my Inbox. I'm usually on the alert for these things, but when the weaving thread became quite active and interesting I hadn't even looked for the subject, intending to keep the momentum going. We all should pay attention to the subject though and when we see it start changing the first one to notice the change ought to make note of it in that line. Please note I wrote "Off Subject" in the Subject Line -- not Off Topic, -- which is when the message(s) doesn't even pertain to the group's purpose and has no relevance.

Getting back to the subject at hand (original subject as in the subject line), I totally agree about installing a Hobbytown drive if the Varney drive is not operating as expected. Then too, and while it may have been stated back when this subject was first started, I'm not even sure which Varney drive is in this NW-2 in question. I've never had a problem (except perhaps some noise) with the original Varney NW-2 drive  (having brass gears) produced in 1950 and shortly thereafter. For that matter, installing that second power truck makes a big improvement. I much prefer the earlier Varney products made by Gordon Varney over anything that Sol Kramer produced. I do have Kramer's Varney GG1 kit though, but then it's engineered to be a reproduction of Bob Faust's Penn Line model. Otherwise, I stay far away from Varney products made after the Spring of 1957.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 2/7/2018 2:32:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Denny,

Yes you are correct in that someone, probably myself, as I often express the same thing, should have changed the subject.

I did not for this post as it is in reply to you and I will orate about the subject below. If I do add to the discussion about the history of our vintage trains in a future post, I will change the subject line if it hasn’t already been done..

I am not really aware of any way to re-gear a Varney NW2 (Varney Switcher). Since I haven’t even determined of what vintage the particular loco is question is I do not which truck/gar box style it is.

But, since I haven’t found or heard of any available parts for either style, it all becomes a tad on the moot side. Yes, it may be possible to use gears/worms designed for other uses and adapt them but that would likely require at least some machine work.

I am of the opinion that the best way to make a Varney NW2 into a sweet runner would be investing into a Hobbytown switcher drive. Yes, it’ll take some bucks and require careful assembly including FOLLOWING THE DIRECTIONS CLOSELY but not any actual machining.

The only other suggestion I would have would be to see if an Athearn drive could be used. While it would require some amount of fitting and filing, etc, it shouldn’t require and actual machine tools to do. I think. I don’t as I haven’t tried either of these suggestions but it seems one or the other should work.

I think the discussions on the group can get so far afield is the near uncontrollable desire to discuss these early pieces almost as if they were pets. Which, in some cases, I believe they are.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:38 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I am not sure what this has to do with regearing of a particular model. I have often wondered how and why discussions on this board get so far off the original topic. Can’t anyone stay on topic or is this forum just gotten to be a portal for everyone to air their thoughts for the day on vintage models?   If so then change the topic line.

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26760	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Not hardly! The Athearn drive has a plastic shell and a zinc frame. The Varney Yard Switcher body is the frame.

It would also be very difficult to use the Athearn trucks with a Varney Yard Switcher without the frame.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 3:57 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Will an Athearn drive fit into the Varney body, with modifications?

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 7, 2018, at 4:34 PM, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

My last Varney Yard Switcher was a poor runner. And compared to an Athearn SW-7 it was noisy. It had the one piece trucks.

What I am looking at doing is replacing the axel gears with NWSL delrin gears and using NWSL brass worms.

Another difference between the Varney switcher and the Athearn switcher is the Varney switcher only has 4 wheel pickup where the Athearn switcher has 8 wheel pickup. Fixing this may be more difficult. Maybe adding track wipers.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 2:12 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Any of us, myself included, could (and should) have changed the subject line once the thread started to wander. Had I seen Denny's post as a reminder, concerning this before I sent my last message I would have done so, but I estimate I started my message somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM EDT, about 5 to 10 minutes before his message was posted, and I didn't finish until 2:20 PM EDT when I sent it. While I wrote a considerable amount, a fair amount of that time was taken when, half way though I decided to write about Bill Bowser's letter and I had to go upstairs to find it in my files -- then had a cup of coffee when I came back down. Right after I sent my message, I then noticed Denny's message in my Inbox. I'm usually on the alert for these things, but when the weaving thread became quite active and interesting I hadn't even looked for the subject, intending to keep the momentum going. We all should pay attention to the subject though and when we see it start changing the first one to notice the change ought to make note of it in that line. Please note I wrote "Off Subject" in the Subject Line -- not Off Topic, -- which is when the message(s) doesn't even pertain to the group's purpose and has no relevance.

Getting back to the subject at hand (original subject as in the subject line), I totally agree about installing a Hobbytown drive if the Varney drive is not operating as expected. Then too, and while it may have been stated back when this subject was first started, I'm not even sure which Varney drive is in this NW-2 in question. I've never had a problem (except perhaps some noise) with the original Varney NW-2 drive  (having brass gears) produced in 1950 and shortly thereafter. For that matter, installing that second power truck makes a big improvement. I much prefer the earlier Varney products made by Gordon Varney over anything that Sol Kramer produced. I do have Kramer's Varney GG1 kit though, but then it's engineered to be a reproduction of Bob Faust's Penn Line model. Otherwise, I stay far away from Varney products made after the Spring of 1957.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 2/7/2018 2:32:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Denny,

Yes you are correct in that someone, probably myself, as I often express the same thing, should have changed the subject.

I did not for this post as it is in reply to you and I will orate about the subject below. If I do add to the discussion about the history of our vintage trains in a future post, I will change the subject line if it hasn’t already been done..

I am not really aware of any way to re-gear a Varney NW2 (Varney Switcher). Since I haven’t even determined of what vintage the particular loco is question is I do not which truck/gar box style it is.

But, since I haven’t found or heard of any available parts for either style, it all becomes a tad on the moot side. Yes, it may be possible to use gears/worms designed for other uses and adapt them but that would likely require at least some machine work.

I am of the opinion that the best way to make a Varney NW2 into a sweet runner would be investing into a Hobbytown switcher drive. Yes, it’ll take some bucks and require careful assembly including FOLLOWING THE DIRECTIONS CLOSELY but not any actual machining.

The only other suggestion I would have would be to see if an Athearn drive could be used. While it would require some amount of fitting and filing, etc, it shouldn’t require and actual machine tools to do. I think. I don’t as I haven’t tried either of these suggestions but it seems one or the other should work.

I think the discussions on the group can get so far afield is the near uncontrollable desire to discuss these early pieces almost as if they were pets. Which, in some cases, I believe they are.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:38 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I am not sure what this has to do with regearing of a particular model. I have often wondered how and why discussions on this board get so far off the original topic. Can’t anyone stay on topic or is this forum just gotten to be a portal for everyone to air their thoughts for the day on vintage models?   If so then change the topic line.

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26761	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob,

All Varney NW-2 Switchers had one-piece trucks, but there was a major change in them in 1960 when Sol Kramer switched to the truck using the nylon worm and spur gear -- same truck that the F-3 was changed to in 1955 (and re-numbered/cataloged as # 2457). The NW-2 was then changed to catalog # 2808 -- with suffixes, BO, NH, PRR and SP. The original NW-2 first produced in 1950 was cataloged as # 2230K -- BUT, even here there was a MAJOR changed only several years later.

I just now (several minutes ago) checked out all my earlier Varney NW-2 kits -- Catalog # 2230K - to verify what I seemed to remember about them. The very first # 2230K NW-2 Switchers had ALL brass gears, worm and spur (axle gears). Those "same" # 2230K NW-2 Switchers only a few years later were changed to having plastic worm and spur gears -- and were cataloged with the SAME # 2230K number -- and I was checking out mint kits just as they came from Varney, with all the paperwork and such -- and not just one but two examples of each kit. If you want better gearing try to find the original # 2230K Switcher having all brass gearing, including brass worm gears, spur gears, driven gear on the end of the shaft and drive gear on the motor shaft. For better traction and electrical pick-up, get the catalog # 2258K twin drive kit, which came with a 7 ounce weight to be installed over this truck at the cab end and shaped like a fat "T." It too had brass gearing. Lube the worms and spur (axle) gears but bench break it in initially (for a short time) with no lube on the drive and driven gears to give them just a bit of "wear" and "polish" before lubing them, which should help reduce noise.

The earliest (original) Varney # 2230K NW-2 came in a short, wide box while the second # 2230K having all plastic gears came in a yellow long and narrow box, just to help in identifying them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/7/2018 5:44:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My last Varney Yard Switcher was a poor runner. And compared to an Athearn SW-7 it was noisy. It had the one piece trucks.

What I am looking at doing is replacing the axel gears with NWSL delrin gears and using NWSL brass worms.

Another difference between the Varney switcher and the Athearn switcher is the Varney switcher only has 4 wheel pickup where the Athearn switcher has 8 wheel pickup. Fixing this may be more difficult. Maybe adding track wipers.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 2:12 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Any of us, myself included, could (and should) have changed the subject line once the thread started to wander. Had I seen Denny's post as a reminder, concerning this before I sent my last message I would have done so, but I estimate I started my message somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM EDT, about 5 to 10 minutes before his message was posted, and I didn't finish until 2:20 PM EDT when I sent it. While I wrote a considerable amount, a fair amount of that time was taken when, half way though I decided to write about Bill Bowser's letter and I had to go upstairs to find it in my files -- then had a cup of coffee when I came back down. Right after I sent my message, I then noticed Denny's message in my Inbox. I'm usually on the alert for these things, but when the weaving thread became quite active and interesting I hadn't even looked for the subject, intending to keep the momentum going. We all should pay attention to the subject though and when we see it start changing the first one to notice the change ought to make note of it in that line. Please note I wrote "Off Subject" in the Subject Line -- not Off Topic, -- which is when the message(s) doesn't even pertain to the group's purpose and has no relevance.

Getting back to the subject at hand (original subject as in the subject line), I totally agree about installing a Hobbytown drive if the Varney drive is not operating as expected. Then too, and while it may have been stated back when this subject was first started, I'm not even sure which Varney drive is in this NW-2 in question. I've never had a problem (except perhaps some noise) with the original Varney NW-2 drive  (having brass gears) produced in 1950 and shortly thereafter. For that matter, installing that second power truck makes a big improvement. I much prefer the earlier Varney products made by Gordon Varney over anything that Sol Kramer produced. I do have Kramer's Varney GG1 kit though, but then it's engineered to be a reproduction of Bob Faust's Penn Line model. Otherwise, I stay far away from Varney products made after the Spring of 1957.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 2/7/2018 2:32:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Denny,

Yes you are correct in that someone, probably myself, as I often express the same thing, should have changed the subject.

I did not for this post as it is in reply to you and I will orate about the subject below. If I do add to the discussion about the history of our vintage trains in a future post, I will change the subject line if it hasn’t already been done..

I am not really aware of any way to re-gear a Varney NW2 (Varney Switcher). Since I haven’t even determined of what vintage the particular loco is question is I do not which truck/gar box style it is.

But, since I haven’t found or heard of any available parts for either style, it all becomes a tad on the moot side. Yes, it may be possible to use gears/worms designed for other uses and adapt them but that would likely require at least some machine work.

I am of the opinion that the best way to make a Varney NW2 into a sweet runner would be investing into a Hobbytown switcher drive. Yes, it’ll take some bucks and require careful assembly including FOLLOWING THE DIRECTIONS CLOSELY but not any actual machining.

The only other suggestion I would have would be to see if an Athearn drive could be used. While it would require some amount of fitting and filing, etc, it shouldn’t require and actual machine tools to do. I think. I don’t as I haven’t tried either of these suggestions but it seems one or the other should work.

I think the discussions on the group can get so far afield is the near uncontrollable desire to discuss these early pieces almost as if they were pets. Which, in some cases, I believe they are.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:38 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I am not sure what this has to do with regearing of a particular model. I have often wondered how and why discussions on this board get so far off the original topic. Can’t anyone stay on topic or is this forum just gotten to be a portal for everyone to air their thoughts for the day on vintage models?   If so then change the topic line.

Denny

Janitor in Training

CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops

WEB site: CWRailman.com

Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26762	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/7/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Ray and anyone still reading this tread.

I went to the kitchen to make a coffee. Saw some Oreo’s sitting out and decided to put them away. So I put the most of the package in the pantry, the rest I “put away” somewhere else. Then I noticed the flashlight I left in the pantry two days ago. Went to put the flashlight away in my work area.

While there I sat down at the computer to check my emails. Answered a few when the wife tells me that there is a “Midsomer Murders” on PBS. Went into the living room to watch it. While doing so I decided to go to the kitchen and make a coffee………

So I definitely understand how you could have missed Denny’s message

I agree that I only am interested in Varney Varney’s. I did have two of the later production NW2’s given to me but once I noticed they had the plastic gear boxes and I ended up selling them, cheaply, at a swap.

Now I am not positive that either a Hobbytown or Athearn drive would even work in one of these. I don’t think the Varney drive had its own frame.

Just checked hoseeker.net and the Varney metal shell had a monocot body/frame. It looks like Hobbytown components could be installed there but an Athearn drive would not. Even the Hobbytown components would be a challenge but it could possibly be done.

Now if Kramer eventually had a plastic shell version that may be a whole different animal. There is a 1962 catalog on hoseeker and the photo looks just like the earlier version and the text says it is a metal shell. It also shows the original F3 A’s & B’s, not the later F7’s so there wpould have been changes later on.

I am now thinking finding a Varney eight wheel drive version and maybe some extra parts and go from there. Maybe installing a can motor or, to keep it more original, install rare earth magnets in the original motor.

Then again, if one could put Hobbytown trucks and gear tower (appears it the tower would fit okay) in…………….

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 4:13 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Ray Wetzel

Posted by: EriePacific@...

•

•

•

•

Image removed by sender.

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26763	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Hi John, unless Varney changed the casting, the Hobbytown of Boston Switcher chassis will fit. I know, I did this job and the body just slips on. The pilots actually fit onto the chassis coupler extensions and are fastened with a 2-56 or 4-40, can't remember which. I painted mine in GT blue and orange and had to change out the motor, because the Pittman motor overheats and slows down big time after a few minutes of running. I put in a can motor and a DCC decoder and it has been running just fine on my layout. I was unaware of neodymium magnets at the time, else I would have tried that.

A couple of years ago, I did two things to increase performance. I was able to get a higher gear for it from the previous owner (Howard Mosley?) and it speed went up to a whopping 25 MPH! I also milled a .032 deep slot in each of the gear covers and installed a .032 pc board with .0125 phosphor bronze wipers to get 8 wheel pickup. It really does perform well now with the wipers wired directly instead of trying to go through mechanical zamac poor continuity.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 12:48 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray and anyone still reading this tread.

So I definitely understand how you could have missed Denny’s message

Now I am not positive that either a Hobbytown or Athearn drive would even work in one of these. I don’t think the Varney drive had its own frame.

Then again, if one could put Hobbytown trucks and gear tower (appears it the tower would fit okay) in…………….

John Hagen

John and Denny,

Ray Wetzel

Posted by: EriePacific@...

•

•

•

•

Image removed by sender.

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26764	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

John.

>. Interesting to note that you've taken a preference for

(Gordon) Varney products over Kramer's. As I see it, Gordon Varney was in it to promote the hobby while of course making money for the company, and his name and reputation was on the line with the products he offered. With that, he produced only items that he thought were best engineered and manufactured to meet the needs of the hobbyists knowing that anything less would have the hobbyist soon migrating to other manufacturers. While this is not meant as a reflection on Sol Kramer, it very much appears that he rested on the laurels of the Varney product name and didn't seem to promote it any further but instead look for ways to save money on anything he could that Gordon Varney produced in the past.

He (Kramer) was a business man first and his main objective was to make money. Why else would he switch to Japanese motors when Pittman's motors made here in the U.S. were universally known as the best? Why else did Kramer eventually move the Varney tooling from Miami to Taiwan in 1968? Why else did Kramer then transfer operations to Hong Kong and then have Ying Lai Cheng put in charge, with making Wai Shing Ting the plant manager? While Ting did have expertise in producing models, not very many American H0 manufacturers found the need to move their operations to the Far East, Roy Cox being one exception. True, Kramer needed to find some cost-cutting near the end -- before he converted his Varney products into Life-Like with - which he was involved in since 1950 -- but if he maintained the same quality as Gordon Varney he wouldn't have needed to. BTW, he (Kramer) and his brother Lou, along with Lewis Glaser, founded Revell in 1952. It has been established that Sol Kramer's original intent in buying the Varney Company was to sell the Varney operation to Revell (as per David Spanagel, in his Varney Trains Greenberg Guide book). Gordon Varney's involvement with his own company that he had built up was a labor of love. Sol Kramer appears to have gone into it strictly for the money, starting out in 1932 producing model airplanes under the Burd Model Airplane Company (Philadelphia, PA). While I can still appreciate some of Sol Kramer's Varney compant products, some -- like the Aerotrain -- which he carried over intact from Gordon Varney, I've come to learn that I need to be selective with many of his others.

I seem to vaguely recall seeing a Varney NW-2 Switcher or two up on eBay, having Hobbytown mechanism, but not having any interest I dismissed them from further thought. So, while I can't definitely say that a Hobbytown mechanism will fit in a Varney NW-2 shell, as best I'm aware of by these recollections, it should be able to be done. The Varney NW-2 did not have a frame, but there was a fiber pivot bar sandwiched between the DC-60 motor and the power truck, which was screwed to the bottom of the body under the side walkways. The unpowered truck has a brass body bolster spanning the body and attached to it the same way, which the truck bolster is attached to. Kramer had no plastic body NW-2.

I went up on HoSeeker and checked out what was shown as the Varney 1962 catalog. It seemingly has three sites to open to: 1) Locomotives, Motors, 2) Train Sets, 3) Freight Cars, Accessories. The front cover of this catalog is being shown having a large section on the "NEW - The Fabulous KM-1 !" This is the only 1962 Varney catalog I saw; please steer me to another one if it exists. In trying to open the Locomotives, Motors section, only the very top of the same front page of this catalog was displayed -- as VARNEY (in red letters on the left) and 1962's Greatest Train Values Catalog in a box on the right. Nothing else showed and this is the first time I've gone up to HoSeeker and not having the page I choose, open. Still while I can't seem to access what you're stating about this catalog offering a metal shell F-3, my only inclination is to say you may have misread something there. Can you send a photo of that to the Group? It's understood that nothing's impossible, and just perhaps Kramer was selling off some surplus metal shell F-3's left over from the mid-'50's, but it still seems bizarre to say the least.

I'd only like to add, while on the "1962 metal F-3" topic, that when I opened the undated HoSeeker < hoseeker.org > Varney Brochure to the right of the Varney 1962 Catalog and went to "Engines," that the # 2808 GM 1000 HP Switcher (NW-2) had a caption between it and the # 2813 powered F-3 Diesel in which it stated having an "All-Metal Body," and I'm left wondering if perhaps this is where you came to the conclusion of metal body F-3's being produced under Sol Kramer -- only because such a model had never been made known to anyone I've known having knowledge of Varney products, including Dick Mercer (Varney S.E. United States rep) and Hal Fletcher (Varney N.E United States rep) in all the many discussions I had with these guys at Hal's Queens, NY apartment. I'm still open to accepting this though, but I've never even seen any literature on it.

Then to, regarding your thought about finding a Varney eight-wheel drive version -- with possibly using Hobbytown truck and gear tower, are we back to the NW-2 or are we talking about the "Kramer metal F-3" which I have doubts on?

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:48:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray and anyone still reading this tread.

I went to the kitchen to make a coffee. Saw some Oreo’s sitting out and decided to put them away. So I put the most of the package in the pantry, the rest I “put away” somewhere else. Then I noticed the flashlight I left in the pantry two days ago. Went to put the flashlight away in my work area.

While there I sat down at the computer to check my emails. Answered a few when the wife tells me that there is a “Midsomer Murders” on PBS. Went into the living room to watch it. While doing so I decided to go to the kitchen and make a coffee………

So I definitely understand how you could have missed Denny’s message

I agree that I only am interested in Varney Varney’s. I did have two of the later production NW2’s given to me but once I noticed they had the plastic gear boxes and I ended up selling them, cheaply, at a swap.

Now I am not positive that either a Hobbytown or Athearn drive would even work in one of these. I don’t think the Varney drive had its own frame.

Just checked hoseeker.net and the Varney metal shell had a monocot body/frame. It looks like Hobbytown components could be installed there but an Athearn drive would not. Even the Hobbytown components would be a challenge but it could possibly be done.

Now if Kramer eventually had a plastic shell version that may be a whole different animal. There is a 1962 catalog on hoseeker and the photo looks just like the earlier version and the text says it is a metal shell. It also shows the original F3 A’s & B’s, not the later F7’s so there wpould have been changes later on.

I am now thinking finding a Varney eight wheel drive version and maybe some extra parts and go from there. Maybe installing a can motor or, to keep it more original, install rare earth magnets in the original motor.

Then again, if one could put Hobbytown trucks and gear tower (appears it the tower would fit okay) in…………….

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 4:13 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Any of us, myself included, could (and should) have changed the subject line once the thread started to wander. Had I seen Denny's post as a reminder, concerning this before I sent my last message I would have done so, but I estimate I started my message somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM EDT, about 5 to 10 minutes before his message was posted, and I didn't finish until 2:20 PM EDT when I sent it. While I wrote a considerable amount, a fair amount of that time was taken when, half way though I decided to write about Bill Bowser's letter and I had to go upstairs to find it in my files -- then had a cup of coffee when I came back down. Right after I sent my message, I then noticed Denny's message in my Inbox. I'm usually on the alert for these things, but when the weaving thread became quite active and interesting I hadn't even looked for the subject, intending to keep the momentum going. We all should pay attention to the subject though and when we see it start changing the first one to notice the change ought to make note of it in that line. Please note I wrote "Off Subject" in the Subject Line -- not Off Topic, -- which is when the message(s) doesn't even pertain to the group's purpose and has no relevance.

Getting back to the subject at hand (original subject as in the subject line), I totally agree about installing a Hobbytown drive if the Varney drive is not operating as expected. Then too, and while it may have been stated back when this subject was first started, I'm not even sure which Varney drive is in this NW-2 in question. I've never had a problem (except perhaps some noise) with the original Varney NW-2 drive  (having brass gears) produced in 1950 and shortly thereafter. For that matter, installing that second power truck makes a big improvement. I much prefer the earlier Varney products made by Gordon Varney over anything that Sol Kramer produced. I do have Kramer's Varney GG1 kit though, but then it's engineered to be a reproduction of Bob Faust's Penn Line model. Otherwise, I stay far away from Varney products made after the Spring of 1957.

Ray Wetzel



Posted by: EriePacific@...

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26765	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Vic,

Good to know I recalled this correctly about Hobbytown mechanisms fitting the Varney NW-2. Good also, to see that a can motor will see an improvement in is performance because of less heating problems, and the wipers are an unexpected plus. Well worth pursuing, but with yours having gear covers, unless I'm not understanding this properly, it would seem that you have a much later version; the earlier NW-2 one-piece gear boxes had no covers, the bottom was open.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 9:25:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi John, unless Varney changed the casting, the Hobbytown of Boston Switcher chassis will fit. I know, I did this job and the body just slips on. The pilots actually fit onto the chassis coupler extensions and are fastened with a 2-56 or 4-40, can't remember which. I painted mine in GT blue and orange and had to change out the motor, because the Pittman motor overheats and slows down big time after a few minutes of running. I put in a can motor and a DCC decoder and it has been running just fine on my layout. I was unaware of neodymium magnets at the time, else I would have tried that.

A couple of years ago, I did two things to increase performance. I was able to get a higher gear for it from the previous owner (Howard Mosley?) and it speed went up to a whopping 25 MPH! I also milled a .032 deep slot in each of the gear covers and installed a .032 pc board with .0125 phosphor bronze wipers to get 8 wheel pickup. It really does perform well now with the wipers wired directly instead of trying to go through mechanical zamac poor continuity.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 12:48 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray and anyone still reading this tread.

I went to the kitchen to make a coffee. Saw some Oreo’s sitting out and decided to put them away. So I put the most of the package in the pantry, the rest I “put away” somewhere else. Then I noticed the flashlight I left in the pantry two days ago. Went to put the flashlight away in my work area.

While there I sat down at the computer to check my emails. Answered a few when the wife tells me that there is a “Midsomer Murders” on PBS. Went into the living room to watch it. While doing so I decided to go to the kitchen and make a coffee………

So I definitely understand how you could have missed Denny’s message

I agree that I only am interested in Varney Varney’s. I did have two of the later production NW2’s given to me but once I noticed they had the plastic gear boxes and I ended up selling them, cheaply, at a swap.

Now I am not positive that either a Hobbytown or Athearn drive would even work in one of these. I don’t think the Varney drive had its own frame.

Just checked hoseeker.net and the Varney metal shell had a monocot body/frame. It looks like Hobbytown components could be installed there but an Athearn drive would not. Even the Hobbytown components would be a challenge but it could possibly be done.

Now if Kramer eventually had a plastic shell version that may be a whole different animal. There is a 1962 catalog on hoseeker and the photo looks just like the earlier version and the text says it is a metal shell. It also shows the original F3 A’s & B’s, not the later F7’s so there wpould have been changes later on.

I am now thinking finding a Varney eight wheel drive version and maybe some extra parts and go from there. Maybe installing a can motor or, to keep it more original, install rare earth magnets in the original motor.

Then again, if one could put Hobbytown trucks and gear tower (appears it the tower would fit okay) in…………….

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 4:13 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Any of us, myself included, could (and should) have changed the subject line once the thread started to wander. Had I seen Denny's post as a reminder, concerning this before I sent my last message I would have done so, but I estimate I started my message somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM EDT, about 5 to 10 minutes before his message was posted, and I didn't finish until 2:20 PM EDT when I sent it. While I wrote a considerable amount, a fair amount of that time was taken when, half way though I decided to write about Bill Bowser's letter and I had to go upstairs to find it in my files -- then had a cup of coffee when I came back down. Right after I sent my message, I then noticed Denny's message in my Inbox. I'm usually on the alert for these things, but when the weaving thread became quite active and interesting I hadn't even looked for the subject, intending to keep the momentum going. We all should pay attention to the subject though and when we see it start changing the first one to notice the change ought to make note of it in that line. Please note I wrote "Off Subject" in the Subject Line -- not Off Topic, -- which is when the message(s) doesn't even pertain to the group's purpose and has no relevance.

Getting back to the subject at hand (original subject as in the subject line), I totally agree about installing a Hobbytown drive if the Varney drive is not operating as expected. Then too, and while it may have been stated back when this subject was first started, I'm not even sure which Varney drive is in this NW-2 in question. I've never had a problem (except perhaps some noise) with the original Varney NW-2 drive  (having brass gears) produced in 1950 and shortly thereafter. For that matter, installing that second power truck makes a big improvement. I much prefer the earlier Varney products made by Gordon Varney over anything that Sol Kramer produced. I do have Kramer's Varney GG1 kit though, but then it's engineered to be a reproduction of Bob Faust's Penn Line model. Otherwise, I stay far away from Varney products made after the Spring of 1957.

Ray Wetzel



Posted by: EriePacific@...

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26766	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Vic,

Great information. Now we know a Hobbytown drive can be used.

You just may have the best running Varney NW2 around.

I like your solution for getting 8 wheel pick up. That is the one weak point of Hobbytown drives.

My slightly off-center pal Cal (RIP), who would only use Hobbytown drives, had a rather nice switching yard that was just a bit out of reach. More than once he got his Cary shelled SW1500 caught on a dead spot. I’d have to go there with my “Athearn” (Cary S2 shell, 2032 Sagami motor w/flywheels, Ernst gears and extra weight besides the Cay shell) down there to pull it off the dead spot.

When he switched to Dyntrol CC he too added wipers to all his drives but your method sure sounds like very neat installation.

Photo maybe???

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 8:25 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Posted by: EriePacific@...

•

•

•

•

Image removed by sender.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26767	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10.00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 8:29 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John.

Hope you enjoyed your Oreo's when you "put the rest away!" While I wasn't actually planning on describing why I didn't change the subject line after Denny's message appeared before mine, but I thought some kind of explanation was needed top clarify that. Time does have a way of slipping by, when we have no purpose to expedite things as retirees < g >. Interesting to note that you've taken a preference for (Gordon) Varney products over Kramer's. As I see it, Gordon Varney was in it to promote the hobby while of course making money for the company, and his name and reputation was on the line with the products he offered. With that, he produced only items that he thought were best engineered and manufactured to meet the needs of the hobbyists knowing that anything less would have the hobbyist soon migrating to other manufacturers. While this is not meant as a reflection on Sol Kramer, it very much appears that he rested on the laurels of the Varney product name and didn't seem to promote it any further but instead look for ways to save money on anything he could that Gordon Varney produced in the past.

Ray Wetzel

Reply via web post
•
Reply to sender
•
Reply to group
•
Start a New Topic
•
Messages in this topic (1)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
Visit Your Group
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26768	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Ray,

Vis was referring the Hobbytown drive gear boxes.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 8:43 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Vic,

Ray Wetzel

Reply via web post
•
Reply to sender
•
Reply to group
•
Start a New Topic
•
Messages in this topic (1)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
Visit Your Group
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26769	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Hi John,

Photos of the loco can be found here.

I am having trouble uploading photos of the modified chassis, so am including them in this reply.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 10:34 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Vic,

Great information. Now we know a Hobbytown drive can be used.

You just may have the best running Varney NW2 around.

I like your solution for getting 8 wheel pick up. That is the one weak point of Hobbytown drives.

When he switched to Dyntrol CC he too added wipers to all his drives but your method sure sounds like very neat installation.

Photo maybe???

John Hagen

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Posted by: EriePacific@...

•

•

•

•

Image removed by sender.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26770	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Hi Ray,

I am referring to the Hobbytown of Boston gearbox covers. Look at the photo.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 9:42 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Vic,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 9:25:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi John, unless Varney changed the casting, the Hobbytown of Boston Switcher chassis will fit. I know, I did this job and the body just slips on. The pilots actually fit onto the chassis coupler extensions and are fastened with a 2-56 or 4-40, can't remember which. I painted mine in GT blue and orange and had to change out the motor, because the Pittman motor overheats and slows down big time after a few minutes of running. I put in a can motor and a DCC decoder and it has been running just fine on my layout. I was unaware of neodymium magnets at the time, else I would have tried that.

A couple of years ago, I did two things to increase performance. I was able to get a higher gear for it from the previous owner (Howard Mosley?) and it speed went up to a whopping 25 MPH! I also milled a .032 deep slot in each of the gear covers and installed a .032 pc board with .0125 phosphor bronze wipers to get 8 wheel pickup. It really does perform well now with the wipers wired directly instead of trying to go through mechanical zamac poor continuity.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 12:48 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray and anyone still reading this tread.

I went to the kitchen to make a coffee. Saw some Oreo’s sitting out and decided to put them away. So I put the most of the package in the pantry, the rest I “put away” somewhere else. Then I noticed the flashlight I left in the pantry two days ago. Went to put the flashlight away in my work area.

While there I sat down at the computer to check my emails. Answered a few when the wife tells me that there is a “Midsomer Murders” on PBS. Went into the living room to watch it. While doing so I decided to go to the kitchen and make a coffee………

So I definitely understand how you could have missed Denny’s message

I agree that I only am interested in Varney Varney’s. I did have two of the later production NW2’s given to me but once I noticed they had the plastic gear boxes and I ended up selling them, cheaply, at a swap.

Now I am not positive that either a Hobbytown or Athearn drive would even work in one of these. I don’t think the Varney drive had its own frame.

Just checked hoseeker.net and the Varney metal shell had a monocot body/frame. It looks like Hobbytown components could be installed there but an Athearn drive would not. Even the Hobbytown components would be a challenge but it could possibly be done.

Now if Kramer eventually had a plastic shell version that may be a whole different animal. There is a 1962 catalog on hoseeker and the photo looks just like the earlier version and the text says it is a metal shell. It also shows the original F3 A’s & B’s, not the later F7’s so there wpould have been changes later on.

I am now thinking finding a Varney eight wheel drive version and maybe some extra parts and go from there. Maybe installing a can motor or, to keep it more original, install rare earth magnets in the original motor.

Then again, if one could put Hobbytown trucks and gear tower (appears it the tower would fit okay) in…………….

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 4:13 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Any of us, myself included, could (and should) have changed the subject line once the thread started to wander. Had I seen Denny's post as a reminder, concerning this before I sent my last message I would have done so, but I estimate I started my message somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM EDT, about 5 to 10 minutes before his message was posted, and I didn't finish until 2:20 PM EDT when I sent it. While I wrote a considerable amount, a fair amount of that time was taken when, half way though I decided to write about Bill Bowser's letter and I had to go upstairs to find it in my files -- then had a cup of coffee when I came back down. Right after I sent my message, I then noticed Denny's message in my Inbox. I'm usually on the alert for these things, but when the weaving thread became quite active and interesting I hadn't even looked for the subject, intending to keep the momentum going. We all should pay attention to the subject though and when we see it start changing the first one to notice the change ought to make note of it in that line. Please note I wrote "Off Subject" in the Subject Line -- not Off Topic, -- which is when the message(s) doesn't even pertain to the group's purpose and has no relevance.

Getting back to the subject at hand (original subject as in the subject line), I totally agree about installing a Hobbytown drive if the Varney drive is not operating as expected. Then too, and while it may have been stated back when this subject was first started, I'm not even sure which Varney drive is in this NW-2 in question. I've never had a problem (except perhaps some noise) with the original Varney NW-2 drive  (having brass gears) produced in 1950 and shortly thereafter. For that matter, installing that second power truck makes a big improvement. I much prefer the earlier Varney products made by Gordon Varney over anything that Sol Kramer produced. I do have Kramer's Varney GG1 kit though, but then it's engineered to be a reproduction of Bob Faust's Penn Line model. Otherwise, I stay far away from Varney products made after the Spring of 1957.

Ray Wetzel



Posted by: EriePacific@...

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26771	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

John,

Okay, thank! That explains it. I guess I didn't pick up on that thoroughly, and as I said, I may not have been understanding it completely at the time. Makes sense now, thanks,

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/8/2018 11:36:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Vis was referring the Hobbytown drive gear boxes.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 8:43 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Vic,

Good to know I recalled this correctly about Hobbytown mechanisms fitting the Varney NW-2. Good also, to see that a can motor will see an improvement in is performance because of less heating problems, and the wipers are an unexpected plus. Well worth pursuing, but with yours having gear covers, unless I'm not understanding this properly, it would seem that you have a much later version; the earlier NW-2 one-piece gear boxes had no covers, the bottom was open.

Ray Wetzel

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26772	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

John,

So then, you're saying that there was no metal F-3 included in HoSeeker's 1962 Varney catalog(?). Sure looked to me that was what you meant. Can you please clarify that, as I'm still not sure where the 1962 catalog is connected to the F-3 in your statement. As for the photos you sent, just as with any other photo attached through Yahoo's Neo, I'm unable to open them ever since Neo came about several years ago. Yes, Sol Kramer made plastic body F-3's at least up through 1966. I don't have any later Varney catalogs to know what he made after that time before he converted his Varney line into Life Like Products which appeared to take place when he put Ying Lai Cheng in charge of Varney, for Life-Like in 1972. Kramer was already involved with Life-Like by 1971. If plastic F-3 models were being produced under the Life-Like name, they most assuredly were Varney F-3's originally; I don't know what was produced in Life-Like.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 8:29 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John.

Hope you enjoyed your Oreo's when you "put the rest away!" While I wasn't actually planning on describing why I didn't change the subject line after Denny's message appeared before mine, but I thought some kind of explanation was needed top clarify that. Time does have a way of slipping by, when we have no purpose to expedite things as retirees < g >.   Interesting to note that you've taken a preference for (Gordon) Varney products over Kramer's. As I see it, Gordon Varney was in it to promote the hobby while of course making money for the company, and his name and reputation was on the line with the products he offered. With that, he produced only items that he thought were best engineered and manufactured to meet the needs of the hobbyists knowing that anything less would have the hobbyist soon migrating to other manufacturers. While this is not meant as a reflection on Sol Kramer, it very much appears that he rested on the laurels of the Varney product name and didn't seem to promote it any further but instead look for ways to save money on anything he could that Gordon Varney produced in the past.

He (Kramer) was a business man first and his main objective was to make money. Why else would he switch to Japanese motors when Pittman's motors made here in the U.S. were universally known as the best? Why else did Kramer eventually move the Varney tooling from Miami to Taiwan in 1968? Why else did Kramer then transfer operations to Hong Kong and then have Ying Lai Cheng put in charge, with making Wai Shing Ting the plant manager? While Ting did have expertise in producing models, not very many American H0 manufacturers found the need to move their operations to the Far East, Roy Cox being one exception. True, Kramer needed to find some cost-cutting near the end -- before he converted his Varney products into Life-Like with - which he was involved in since 1950 -- but if he maintained the same quality as Gordon Varney he wouldn't have needed to. BTW, he (Kramer) and his brother Lou, along with Lewis Glaser, founded Revell in 1952. It has been established that Sol Kramer's original intent in buying the Varney Company was to sell the Varney operation to Revell (as per David Spanagel, in his Varney Trains Greenberg Guide book). Gordon Varney's involvement with his own company that he had built up was a labor of love. Sol Kramer appears to have gone into it strictly for the money, starting out in 1932 producing model airplanes under the Burd Model Airplane Company (Philadelphia, PA). While I can still appreciate some of Sol Kramer's Varney compant products, some -- like the Aerotrain -- which he carried over intact from Gordon Varney, I've come to learn that I need to be selective with many of his others.

I seem to vaguely recall seeing a Varney NW-2 Switcher or two up on eBay, having Hobbytown mechanism, but not having any interest I dismissed them from further thought. So, while I can't definitely say that a Hobbytown mechanism will fit in a Varney NW-2 shell, as best I'm aware of by these recollections, it should be able to be done.  The Varney NW-2 did not have a frame, but there was a fiber pivot bar sandwiched between the DC-60 motor and the power truck, which was screwed to the bottom of the body under the side walkways. The unpowered truck has a brass body bolster spanning the body and attached to it the same way, which the truck bolster is attached to. Kramer had no plastic body NW-2.

I went up on HoSeeker and checked out what was shown as the Varney 1962 catalog. It seemingly has three sites to open to: 1) Locomotives, Motors, 2) Train Sets, 3) Freight Cars, Accessories. The front cover of this catalog is being shown having a large section on the "NEW - The Fabulous KM-1 !" This is the only 1962 Varney catalog I saw; please steer me to another one if it exists. In trying to open the Locomotives, Motors section, only the very top of the same front page of this catalog was displayed -- as VARNEY (in red letters on the left) and 1962's Greatest Train Values Catalog in a box on the right. Nothing else showed and this is the first time I've gone up to HoSeeker and not having the page I choose, open.   Still while I can't seem to access what you're stating about this catalog offering a metal shell F-3, my only inclination is to say you may have misread something there. Can you send a photo of that to the Group? It's understood that nothing's impossible, and just perhaps Kramer was selling off some surplus metal shell F-3's left over from the mid-'50's, but it still seems bizarre to say the least.

I'd only like to add, while on the "1962 metal F-3" topic, that when I opened the undated HoSeeker < hoseeker.org > Varney Brochure to the right of the Varney 1962 Catalog and went to "Engines," that the # 2808 GM 1000 HP Switcher (NW-2) had a caption between it and the # 2813 powered F-3 Diesel in which it stated having an "All-Metal Body," and I'm left wondering if perhaps this is where you came to the conclusion of metal body F-3's being produced under Sol Kramer -- only because such a model had never been made known to anyone I've known having knowledge of Varney products, including Dick Mercer (Varney S.E.. United States rep) and Hal Fletcher (Varney N.E United States rep) in all the many discussions I had with these guys at Hal's Queens, NY apartment. I'm still open to accepting this though, but I've never even seen any literature on it.

Then to, regarding your thought about finding a Varney eight-wheel drive version -- with possibly using Hobbytown truck and gear tower, are we back to the NW-2 or are we talking about the "Kramer metal F-3" which I have doubts on?

Ray Wetzel



Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26773	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Vic,

Thanks for the photo. That is a nicely done installation of pick-ups.

Yeah I couldn’t find the photo in your album but I did see photos of your Ohio Seamless Tube gondola.

IIRC you got the decals from me (OBS-CALS).

I have yet to do one albeit I have two of the undecorated Walther’s cars awaiting.

Nice stuff in your album though…

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 11:45 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hi John,

Photos of the loco can be found here.

I am having trouble uploading photos of the modified chassis, so am including them in this reply.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26774	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

I am not saying there was no metal F3’s in the 1962 catalog.

I am saying that the photo showed Varney F3’s. There was no mention of whether they were metal or plastic.

As I was, as stated, unaware that Kramer had produced plastic shelled F3’s until you just now mentioned it.

So far as the photos attached, they came from an earlier post by someone else when I responded to their post. I have no idea what they of or where they came from. Frankly I’ve never bothered to open them.

The 1962 catalog in hoseeker that I referred to link is just below

http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1962pg01.jpg

I’ve attached the switcher portion of that page and does state it has a metal shell.

I’ve also attached the F3 part of the same page that makes no mention of what the shell(s) are made of.

If you cannot see the photos in the attachments I’ll send them to you directly.

There are no other Varney catalogs on hoseeker that I could find from after 1957 so I know, or have I claimed to know, anything more about the Kramer years of Varney.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 12:49 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,
I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.
The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.
I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.
A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.
Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.
Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.
So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.
When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.
John Hagen

Reply via web post
•
Reply to sender
•
Reply to group
•
Start a New Topic
•
Messages in this topic (1)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
Visit Your Group
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26775	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I found the photos (very nice!) at the end of the file.

Regards,
Walter

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 2:50 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Vic,
Thanks for the photo. That is a nicely done installation of pick-ups.
Yeah I couldn’t find the photo in your album but I did see photos of your Ohio Seamless Tube gondola.
IIRC you got the decals from me (OBS-CALS).
I have yet to do one albeit I have two of the undecorated Walther’s cars awaiting.
Nice stuff in your album though…
John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups. com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 11:45 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hi John,
Photos of the loco can be found here.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/ groups/vintageHO/photos/ albums/801906017

I am having trouble uploading photos of the modified chassis, so am including them in this reply.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26776	From: J. L. Edwards	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hey Vic,

I followed your link to "Vic's Vintages" and saw the GT NW2 but no pic of the extra wiper config, can you add one please?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

"Defeats always teach lessons,

Victories sometimes do."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26777	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Vic,

That's what I like; photos sent as a jpg file. No problem opening them. Used to be I was able to open any photo, even as an attachment with a message. Ever since Yahoo introduced Neo, I'm unable to open an attached photo going as part of Neo.

Your Hobbytown mechanism fits in there nicely. I thought that's how I remember them to go, but never made any notes on it. Nice improvising on the wipers installation.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hi Ray,

I am referring to the Hobbytown of Boston gearbox covers. Look at the photo.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Vic,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 9:25:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi John, unless Varney changed the casting, the Hobbytown of Boston Switcher chassis will fit. I know, I did this job and the body just slips on. The pilots actually fit onto the chassis coupler extensions and are fastened with a 2-56 or 4-40, can't remember which. I painted mine in GT blue and orange and had to change out the motor, because the Pittman motor overheats and slows down big time after a few minutes of running. I put in a can motor and a DCC decoder and it has been running just fine on my layout. I was unaware of neodymium magnets at the time, else I would have tried that.

A couple of years ago, I did two things to increase performance. I was able to get a higher gear for it from the previous owner (Howard Mosley?) and it speed went up to a whopping 25 MPH! I also milled a .032 deep slot in each of the gear covers and installed a .032 pc board with .0125 phosphor bronze wipers to get 8 wheel pickup. It really does perform well now with the wipers wired directly instead of trying to go through mechanical zamac poor continuity.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 12:48 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray and anyone still reading this tread.

I went to the kitchen to make a coffee. Saw some Oreo’s sitting out and decided to put them away. So I put the most of the package in the pantry, the rest I “put away” somewhere else. Then I noticed the flashlight I left in the pantry two days ago. Went to put the flashlight away in my work area.

While there I sat down at the computer to check my emails. Answered a few when the wife tells me that there is a “Midsomer Murders” on PBS. Went into the living room to watch it. While doing so I decided to go to the kitchen and make a coffee………

So I definitely understand how you could have missed Denny’s message

I agree that I only am interested in Varney Varney’s. I did have two of the later production NW2’s given to me but once I noticed they had the plastic gear boxes and I ended up selling them, cheaply, at a swap.

Now I am not positive that either a Hobbytown or Athearn drive would even work in one of these. I don’t think the Varney drive had its own frame.

Just checked hoseeker.net and the Varney metal shell had a monocot body/frame. It looks like Hobbytown components could be installed there but an Athearn drive would not. Even the Hobbytown components would be a challenge but it could possibly be done.

Now if Kramer eventually had a plastic shell version that may be a whole different animal. There is a 1962 catalog on hoseeker and the photo looks just like the earlier version and the text says it is a metal shell. It also shows the original F3 A’s & B’s, not the later F7’s so there wpould have been changes later on.

I am now thinking finding a Varney eight wheel drive version and maybe some extra parts and go from there. Maybe installing a can motor or, to keep it more original, install rare earth magnets in the original motor.

Then again, if one could put Hobbytown trucks and gear tower (appears it the tower would fit okay) in…………….

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 4:13 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John and Denny,

Any of us, myself included, could (and should) have changed the subject line once the thread started to wander. Had I seen Denny's post as a reminder, concerning this before I sent my last message I would have done so, but I estimate I started my message somewhere between 1:30 PM and 1:35 PM EDT, about 5 to 10 minutes before his message was posted, and I didn't finish until 2:20 PM EDT when I sent it. While I wrote a considerable amount, a fair amount of that time was taken when, half way though I decided to write about Bill Bowser's letter and I had to go upstairs to find it in my files -- then had a cup of coffee when I came back down. Right after I sent my message, I then noticed Denny's message in my Inbox. I'm usually on the alert for these things, but when the weaving thread became quite active and interesting I hadn't even looked for the subject, intending to keep the momentum going. We all should pay attention to the subject though and when we see it start changing the first one to notice the change ought to make note of it in that line. Please note I wrote "Off Subject" in the Subject Line -- not Off Topic, -- which is when the message(s) doesn't even pertain to the group's purpose and has no relevance.

Getting back to the subject at hand (original subject as in the subject line), I totally agree about installing a Hobbytown drive if the Varney drive is not operating as expected. Then too, and while it may have been stated back when this subject was first started, I'm not even sure which Varney drive is in this NW-2 in question. I've never had a problem (except perhaps some noise) with the original Varney NW-2 drive  (having brass gears) produced in 1950 and shortly thereafter. For that matter, installing that second power truck makes a big improvement. I much prefer the earlier Varney products made by Gordon Varney over anything that Sol Kramer produced. I do have Kramer's Varney GG1 kit though, but then it's engineered to be a reproduction of Bob Faust's Penn Line model. Otherwise, I stay far away from Varney products made after the Spring of 1957.

Ray Wetzel



Posted by: EriePacific@...

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26778	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

John,

That catalog # 700 - SW-7 is the same model I saw in my 1966 catalog. I have to wonder why Kramer changed it's designation from an NW-2 to an SW-7 when it's the same model Gordon created.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 3:24 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I am not saying there was no metal F3’s in the 1962 catalog.

I am saying that the photo showed Varney F3’s. There was no mention of whether they were metal or plastic.

As I was, as stated, unaware that Kramer had produced plastic shelled F3’s until you just now mentioned it.

The 1962 catalog in hoseeker that I referred to link is just below

http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1962pg01.jpg

I’ve attached the switcher portion of that page and does state it has a metal shell.

I’ve also attached the F3 part of the same page that makes no mention of what the shell(s) are made of.

If you cannot see the photos in the attachments I’ll send them to you directly.

There are no other Varney catalogs on hoseeker that I could find from after 1957 so I know, or have I claimed to know, anything more about the Kramer years of Varney.

John Hagen

John,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26779	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Okay, thanks for straightening it all out..

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 3:24 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I am not saying there was no metal F3’s in the 1962 catalog.

I am saying that the photo showed Varney F3’s. There was no mention of whether they were metal or plastic.

As I was, as stated, unaware that Kramer had produced plastic shelled F3’s until you just now mentioned it.

The 1962 catalog in hoseeker that I referred to link is just below

http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1962pg01.jpg

I’ve attached the switcher portion of that page and does state it has a metal shell.

I’ve also attached the F3 part of the same page that makes no mention of what the shell(s) are made of.

If you cannot see the photos in the attachments I’ll send them to you directly.

There are no other Varney catalogs on hoseeker that I could find from after 1957 so I know, or have I claimed to know, anything more about the Kramer years of Varney.

John Hagen

John,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,
I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.
The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.
I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.
A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.
Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.
Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.
So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.
When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.
John Hagen

Reply via web post
•
Reply to sender
•
Reply to group
•
Start a New Topic
•
Messages in this topic (1)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
Visit Your Group
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26780	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

To my knowledge, the only F3 was produced under the Cox name. Life-Like produced an F7.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 8, 2018, at 12:48 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John,

So then, you're saying that there was no metal F-3 included in HoSeeker's 1962 Varney catalog(?). Sure looked to me that was what you meant. Can you please clarify that, as I'm still not sure where the 1962 catalog is connected to the F-3 in your statement. As for the photos you sent, just as with any other photo attached through Yahoo's Neo, I'm unable to open them ever since Neo came about several years ago. Yes, Sol Kramer made plastic body F-3's at least up through 1966. I don't have any later Varney catalogs to know what he made after that time before he converted his Varney line into Life Like Products which appeared to take place when he put Ying Lai Cheng in charge of Varney, for Life-Like in 1972. Kramer was already involved with Life-Like by 1971. If plastic F-3 models were being produced under the Life-Like name, they most assuredly were Varney F-3's originally; I don't know what was produced in Life-Like.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 8:29 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John..

Hope you enjoyed your Oreo's when you "put the rest away!" While I wasn't actually planning on describing why I didn't change the subject line after Denny's message appeared before mine, but I thought some kind of explanation was needed top clarify that. Time does have a way of slipping by, when we have no purpose to expedite things as retirees < g >.   Interesting to note that you've taken a preference for (Gordon) Varney products over Kramer's. As I see it, Gordon Varney was in it to promote the hobby while of course making money for the company, and his name and reputation was on the line with the products he offered. With that, he produced only items that he thought were best engineered and manufactured to meet the needs of the hobbyists knowing that anything less would have the hobbyist soon migrating to other manufacturers. While this is not meant as a reflection on Sol Kramer, it very much appears that he rested on the laurels of the Varney product name and didn't seem to promote it any further but instead look for ways to save money on anything he could that Gordon Varney produced in the past.

He (Kramer) was a business man first and his main objective was to make money. Why else would he switch to Japanese motors when Pittman's motors made here in the U.S. were universally known as the best? Why else did Kramer eventually move the Varney tooling from Miami to Taiwan in 1968? Why else did Kramer then transfer operations to Hong Kong and then have Ying Lai Cheng put in charge, with making Wai Shing Ting the plant manager? While Ting did have expertise in producing models, not very many American H0 manufacturers found the need to move their operations to the Far East, Roy Cox being one exception. True, Kramer needed to find some cost-cutting near the end -- before he converted his Varney products into Life-Like with - which he was involved in since 1950 -- but if he maintained the same quality as Gordon Varney he wouldn't have needed to. BTW, he (Kramer) and his brother Lou, along with Lewis Glaser, founded Revell in 1952. It has been established that Sol Kramer's original intent in buying the Varney Company was to sell the Varney operation to Revell (as per David Spanagel, in his Varney Trains Greenberg Guide book). Gordon Varney's involvement with his own company that he had built up was a labor of love. Sol Kramer appears to have gone into it strictly for the money, starting out in 1932 producing model airplanes under the Burd Model Airplane Company (Philadelphia, PA). While I can still appreciate some of Sol Kramer's Varney compant products, some -- like the Aerotrain -- which he carried over intact from Gordon Varney, I've come to learn that I need to be selective with many of his others.

I seem to vaguely recall seeing a Varney NW-2 Switcher or two up on eBay, having Hobbytown mechanism, but not having any interest I dismissed them from further thought. So, while I can't definitely say that a Hobbytown mechanism will fit in a Varney NW-2 shell, as best I'm aware of by these recollections, it should be able to be done.  The Varney NW-2 did not have a frame, but there was a fiber pivot bar sandwiched between the DC-60 motor and the power truck, which was screwed to the bottom of the body under the side walkways. The unpowered truck has a brass body bolster spanning the body and attached to it the same way, which the truck bolster is attached to. Kramer had no plastic body NW-2.

I went up on HoSeeker and checked out what was shown as the Varney 1962 catalog. It seemingly has three sites to open to: 1) Locomotives, Motors, 2) Train Sets, 3) Freight Cars, Accessories. The front cover of this catalog is being shown having a large section on the "NEW - The Fabulous KM-1 !" This is the only 1962 Varney catalog I saw; please steer me to another one if it exists. In trying to open the Locomotives, Motors section, only the very top of the same front page of this catalog was displayed -- as VARNEY (in red letters on the left) and 1962's Greatest Train Values Catalog in a box on the right. Nothing else showed and this is the first time I've gone up to HoSeeker and not having the page I choose, open.   Still while I can't seem to access what you're stating about this catalog offering a metal shell F-3, my only inclination is to say you may have misread something there. Can you send a photo of that to the Group? It's understood that nothing's impossible, and just perhaps Kramer was selling off some surplus metal shell F-3's left over from the mid-'50's, but it still seems bizarre to say the least.

I'd only like to add, while on the "1962 metal F-3" topic, that when I opened the undated HoSeeker < hoseeker.org > Varney Brochure to the right of the Varney 1962 Catalog and went to "Engines," that the # 2808 GM 1000 HP Switcher (NW-2) had a caption between it and the # 2813 powered F-3 Diesel in which it stated having an "All-Metal Body," and I'm left wondering if perhaps this is where you came to the conclusion of metal body F-3's being produced under Sol Kramer -- only because such a model had never been made known to anyone I've known having knowledge of Varney products, including Dick Mercer (Varney S.E.. United States rep) and Hal Fletcher (Varney N.E United States rep) in all the many discussions I had with these guys at Hal's Queens, NY apartment. I'm still open to accepting this though, but I've never even seen any literature on it.

Then to, regarding your thought about finding a Varney eight-wheel drive version -- with possibly using Hobbytown truck and gear tower, are we back to the NW-2 or are we talking about the "Kramer metal F-3" which I have doubts on?

Ray Wetzel



Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

<image001.jpg>

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

<image002.jpg>

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

<image003.jpg>
<image003.jpg>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26781	From: louis niederlander	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

My first job was at Sparks Hobby Shop in Cleveland. Big bucks....75c an hour in 1965.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 10:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

I got my Varney Dockside for my 12th birthday in 1946. $9.95? I got a Strombeker Rock Island Rocket. I used Varney freight trucks on it.

I remember the late 40's freight car kits that were a few blocks of wood with cardboard sides. They still show up on eBay.

In the late 40's I cut lawns for 25 cents! It took 4 lawns to get a dollar!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26782	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Was the Life Like F-7 actually a F-3 body?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 3:24 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

To my knowledge, the only F3 was produced under the Cox name. Life-Like produced an F7.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 8, 2018, at 12:48 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John,

So then, you're saying that there was no metal F-3 included in HoSeeker's 1962 Varney catalog(?). Sure looked to me that was what you meant. Can you please clarify that, as I'm still not sure where the 1962 catalog is connected to the F-3 in your statement. As for the photos you sent, just as with any other photo attached through Yahoo's Neo, I'm unable to open them ever since Neo came about several years ago. Yes, Sol Kramer made plastic body F-3's at least up through 1966. I don't have any later Varney catalogs to know what he made after that time before he converted his Varney line into Life Like Products which appeared to take place when he put Ying Lai Cheng in charge of Varney, for Life-Like in 1972. Kramer was already involved with Life-Like by 1971. If plastic F-3 models were being produced under the Life-Like name, they most assuredly were Varney F-3's originally; I don't know what was produced in Life-Like.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 8:29 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John...

Hope you enjoyed your Oreo's when you "put the rest away!" While I wasn't actually planning on describing why I didn't change the subject line after Denny's message appeared before mine, but I thought some kind of explanation was needed top clarify that. Time does have a way of slipping by, when we have no purpose to expedite things as retirees < g >.   Interesting to note that you've taken a preference for (Gordon) Varney products over Kramer's. As I see it, Gordon Varney was in it to promote the hobby while of course making money for the company, and his name and reputation was on the line with the products he offered. With that, he produced only items that he thought were best engineered and manufactured to meet the needs of the hobbyists knowing that anything less would have the hobbyist soon migrating to other manufacturers. While this is not meant as a reflection on Sol Kramer, it very much appears that he rested on the laurels of the Varney product name and didn't seem to promote it any further but instead look for ways to save money on anything he could that Gordon Varney produced in the past.

He (Kramer) was a business man first and his main objective was to make money. Why else would he switch to Japanese motors when Pittman's motors made here in the U.S. were universally known as the best? Why else did Kramer eventually move the Varney tooling from Miami to Taiwan in 1968? Why else did Kramer then transfer operations to Hong Kong and then have Ying Lai Cheng put in charge, with making Wai Shing Ting the plant manager? While Ting did have expertise in producing models, not very many American H0 manufacturers found the need to move their operations to the Far East, Roy Cox being one exception. True, Kramer needed to find some cost-cutting near the end -- before he converted his Varney products into Life-Like with - which he was involved in since 1950 -- but if he maintained the same quality as Gordon Varney he wouldn't have needed to. BTW, he (Kramer) and his brother Lou, along with Lewis Glaser, founded Revell in 1952. It has been established that Sol Kramer's original intent in buying the Varney Company was to sell the Varney operation to Revell (as per David Spanagel, in his Varney Trains Greenberg Guide book). Gordon Varney's involvement with his own company that he had built up was a labor of love. Sol Kramer appears to have gone into it strictly for the money, starting out in 1932 producing model airplanes under the Burd Model Airplane Company (Philadelphia, PA). While I can still appreciate some of Sol Kramer's Varney compant products, some -- like the Aerotrain -- which he carried over intact from Gordon Varney, I've come to learn that I need to be selective with many of his others.

I seem to vaguely recall seeing a Varney NW-2 Switcher or two up on eBay, having Hobbytown mechanism, but not having any interest I dismissed them from further thought. So, while I can't definitely say that a Hobbytown mechanism will fit in a Varney NW-2 shell, as best I'm aware of by these recollections, it should be able to be done.  The Varney NW-2 did not have a frame, but there was a fiber pivot bar sandwiched between the DC-60 motor and the power truck, which was screwed to the bottom of the body under the side walkways. The unpowered truck has a brass body bolster spanning the body and attached to it the same way, which the truck bolster is attached to. Kramer had no plastic body NW-2.

I went up on HoSeeker and checked out what was shown as the Varney 1962 catalog. It seemingly has three sites to open to: 1) Locomotives, Motors, 2) Train Sets, 3) Freight Cars, Accessories. The front cover of this catalog is being shown having a large section on the "NEW - The Fabulous KM-1 !" This is the only 1962 Varney catalog I saw; please steer me to another one if it exists. In trying to open the Locomotives, Motors section, only the very top of the same front page of this catalog was displayed -- as VARNEY (in red letters on the left) and 1962's Greatest Train Values Catalog in a box on the right. Nothing else showed and this is the first time I've gone up to HoSeeker and not having the page I choose, open.   Still while I can't seem to access what you're stating about this catalog offering a metal shell F-3, my only inclination is to say you may have misread something there. Can you send a photo of that to the Group? It's understood that nothing's impossible, and just perhaps Kramer was selling off some surplus metal shell F-3's left over from the mid-'50's, but it still seems bizarre to say the least.

I'd only like to add, while on the "1962 metal F-3" topic, that when I opened the undated HoSeeker < hoseeker.org > Varney Brochure to the right of the Varney 1962 Catalog and went to "Engines," that the # 2808 GM 1000 HP Switcher (NW-2) had a caption between it and the # 2813 powered F-3 Diesel in which it stated having an "All-Metal Body," and I'm left wondering if perhaps this is where you came to the conclusion of metal body F-3's being produced under Sol Kramer -- only because such a model had never been made known to anyone I've known having knowledge of Varney products, including Dick Mercer (Varney S.E.. United States rep) and Hal Fletcher (Varney N.E United States rep) in all the many discussions I had with these guys at Hal's Queens, NY apartment. I'm still open to accepting this though, but I've never even seen any literature on it.

Then to, regarding your thought about finding a Varney eight-wheel drive version -- with possibly using Hobbytown truck and gear tower, are we back to the NW-2 or are we talking about the "Kramer metal F-3" which I have doubts on?

Ray Wetzel



Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

<image001.jpg>

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

<image002.jpg>

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

<image003.jpg>
<image003.jpg>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26783	From: rcjge	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Vic,

Pictures RE: the wiper installation, aren't showing in the posting on the group

-Jeff

Canada

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26784	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

At the hobby shop where I worked in 1963, I made $1.00 per hour.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 8, 2018, at 6:06 PM, louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

My first job was at Sparks Hobby Shop in Cleveland. Big bucks....75c an hour in 1965.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 10:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

I got my Varney Dockside for my 12th birthday in 1946. $9.95? I got a Strombeker Rock Island Rocket. I used Varney freight trucks on it.

I remember the late 40's freight car kits that were a few blocks of wood with cardboard sides. They still show up on eBay.

In the late 40's I cut lawns for 25 cents! It took 4 lawns to get a dollar!

I worked for the SP in San Francisco during the summers of 1951 and 1952. The SP was running steam at that time. I went into the USAF in August 1952. When I got out of the USAF in October 1958 the SP has dieslized.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26785	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/8/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I wish because I would have bought one and painted it got Bangor and Arrostook. No, it was an F7.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 8, 2018, at 6:23 PM, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Was the Life Like F-7 actually a F-3 body?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 3:24 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

To my knowledge, the only F3 was produced under the Cox name. Life-Like produced an F7.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 8, 2018, at 12:48 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John,

So then, you're saying that there was no metal F-3 included in HoSeeker's 1962 Varney catalog(?). Sure looked to me that was what you meant. Can you please clarify that, as I'm still not sure where the 1962 catalog is connected to the F-3 in your statement. As for the photos you sent, just as with any other photo attached through Yahoo's Neo, I'm unable to open them ever since Neo came about several years ago. Yes, Sol Kramer made plastic body F-3's at least up through 1966. I don't have any later Varney catalogs to know what he made after that time before he converted his Varney line into Life Like Products which appeared to take place when he put Ying Lai Cheng in charge of Varney, for Life-Like in 1972. Kramer was already involved with Life-Like by 1971. If plastic F-3 models were being produced under the Life-Like name, they most assuredly were Varney F-3's originally; I don't know what was produced in Life-Like.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 8:29 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John...

Hope you enjoyed your Oreo's when you "put the rest away!" While I wasn't actually planning on describing why I didn't change the subject line after Denny's message appeared before mine, but I thought some kind of explanation was needed top clarify that. Time does have a way of slipping by, when we have no purpose to expedite things as retirees < g >.   Interesting to note that you've taken a preference for (Gordon) Varney products over Kramer's. As I see it, Gordon Varney was in it to promote the hobby while of course making money for the company, and his name and reputation was on the line with the products he offered. With that, he produced only items that he thought were best engineered and manufactured to meet the needs of the hobbyists knowing that anything less would have the hobbyist soon migrating to other manufacturers. While this is not meant as a reflection on Sol Kramer, it very much appears that he rested on the laurels of the Varney product name and didn't seem to promote it any further but instead look for ways to save money on anything he could that Gordon Varney produced in the past.

He (Kramer) was a business man first and his main objective was to make money. Why else would he switch to Japanese motors when Pittman's motors made here in the U.S. were universally known as the best? Why else did Kramer eventually move the Varney tooling from Miami to Taiwan in 1968? Why else did Kramer then transfer operations to Hong Kong and then have Ying Lai Cheng put in charge, with making Wai Shing Ting the plant manager? While Ting did have expertise in producing models, not very many American H0 manufacturers found the need to move their operations to the Far East, Roy Cox being one exception. True, Kramer needed to find some cost-cutting near the end -- before he converted his Varney products into Life-Like with - which he was involved in since 1950 -- but if he maintained the same quality as Gordon Varney he wouldn't have needed to. BTW, he (Kramer) and his brother Lou, along with Lewis Glaser, founded Revell in 1952. It has been established that Sol Kramer's original intent in buying the Varney Company was to sell the Varney operation to Revell (as per David Spanagel, in his Varney Trains Greenberg Guide book). Gordon Varney's involvement with his own company that he had built up was a labor of love. Sol Kramer appears to have gone into it strictly for the money, starting out in 1932 producing model airplanes under the Burd Model Airplane Company (Philadelphia, PA). While I can still appreciate some of Sol Kramer's Varney compant products, some -- like the Aerotrain -- which he carried over intact from Gordon Varney, I've come to learn that I need to be selective with many of his others.

I seem to vaguely recall seeing a Varney NW-2 Switcher or two up on eBay, having Hobbytown mechanism, but not having any interest I dismissed them from further thought. So, while I can't definitely say that a Hobbytown mechanism will fit in a Varney NW-2 shell, as best I'm aware of by these recollections, it should be able to be done.  The Varney NW-2 did not have a frame, but there was a fiber pivot bar sandwiched between the DC-60 motor and the power truck, which was screwed to the bottom of the body under the side walkways. The unpowered truck has a brass body bolster spanning the body and attached to it the same way, which the truck bolster is attached to. Kramer had no plastic body NW-2.

I went up on HoSeeker and checked out what was shown as the Varney 1962 catalog. It seemingly has three sites to open to: 1) Locomotives, Motors, 2) Train Sets, 3) Freight Cars, Accessories. The front cover of this catalog is being shown having a large section on the "NEW - The Fabulous KM-1 !" This is the only 1962 Varney catalog I saw; please steer me to another one if it exists. In trying to open the Locomotives, Motors section, only the very top of the same front page of this catalog was displayed -- as VARNEY (in red letters on the left) and 1962's Greatest Train Values Catalog in a box on the right. Nothing else showed and this is the first time I've gone up to HoSeeker and not having the page I choose, open.   Still while I can't seem to access what you're stating about this catalog offering a metal shell F-3, my only inclination is to say you may have misread something there. Can you send a photo of that to the Group? It's understood that nothing's impossible, and just perhaps Kramer was selling off some surplus metal shell F-3's left over from the mid-'50's, but it still seems bizarre to say the least.

I'd only like to add, while on the "1962 metal F-3" topic, that when I opened the undated HoSeeker < hoseeker.org > Varney Brochure to the right of the Varney 1962 Catalog and went to "Engines," that the # 2808 GM 1000 HP Switcher (NW-2) had a caption between it and the # 2813 powered F-3 Diesel in which it stated having an "All-Metal Body," and I'm left wondering if perhaps this is where you came to the conclusion of metal body F-3's being produced under Sol Kramer -- only because such a model had never been made known to anyone I've known having knowledge of Varney products, including Dick Mercer (Varney S.E.. United States rep) and Hal Fletcher (Varney N.E United States rep) in all the many discussions I had with these guys at Hal's Queens, NY apartment. I'm still open to accepting this though, but I've never even seen any literature on it.

Then to, regarding your thought about finding a Varney eight-wheel drive version -- with possibly using Hobbytown truck and gear tower, are we back to the NW-2 or are we talking about the "Kramer metal F-3" which I have doubts on?

Ray Wetzel



Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

<image001.jpg>

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

<image002.jpg>

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

<image003.jpg>
<image003.jpg>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26786	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad,

Somehow, what you're saying may very possibly all fit in with what Dave Spanagel stated in his Greenberg/Varney Guide book, although he didn't elaborate to any extent that made any direct connect. In piecing things together, I'll start by mentioning that Leroy (Roy) Cox, a machinist by trade, started out with his L.M. Cox Manufacturing Co. Inc. business in his garage (as many early H0 manufacturers did), in 1945. In 1952 he hired one William (Bill) Selzer as company engineer, who not too long after (in 1956) designed an extremely profitable method of producing model plane engines, vastly promoting the business. When Roy Cox retired in 1969, he sold the L.M. Cox Manufacturing company to Bill Selzer who had gone into business for himself as Leisure Dynamics Inc. (a toy manufacturer and later a model manufacturer); the L..M. Cox Manufacturing company became a subsidiary of Leisure Dynamics. The following year Bill Selzer was appointed president of L.M. Cox Manufacturing.

In 1971, Leisure Dynamics broke the company in two, with the model production moving to Minnesota, leaving the model plane engine production in Santa Ana, CA. Dave Spanagel's description of what follows with this clarifies it better, but not without knowing about this having transpired. Spanagel wrote; "Kramer had lured Selzer (Spanagel spells his name "Seltzer") away from Leisure Dynamics to Life-Like in 1971." What now appears to have happened was that Kramer influenced Selzer to leave the model plane engine portion of Leisure Dynamics and move to Minnesota with the L.M. Cox Mfg part of the company. In 1976, the Leisure Dynamics company name was changed to Cox Hobbies Inc.

In the meantime, per Dave Spanagel, "He (Selzer) assisted Kramer with the purchase of a building in Hong Kong to house Varney tooling. In 1975 Selzer successfully refurbished the Varney and Penn Line tooling. and now manufactures a variety of trains under several trade names." As, as you stated, Life-Like (Kramer) did not produce an F-3, but continued to produce the F-7 -- and as Cox (Selzer) did produce the F-3, also refurbishing the Varney tooling, it would seem most logical that Bill Selzer had continued with the production of the Varney's F-3 under the Cox Hobbies Inc name.

Digging out a copy of the Leisure Dynamics' letter of promotion of Bill Selzer in 1970, I'd like to submit the gist of it here in its entirety;

L. M. COX MANUFACTURING CO., INC.

A Subsidiary of Leisure Dynamics Inc.

1505 East Warner Avenue, Santa Ana, California 92705. Phone (714) 546-2251

WILLIAM H. SELZER is the newly appointed President of the L. M. Cox Manufacturing Co., Inc., Santa Ana, California -- the world's largest producer of engine - powered model planes and race cars. The appointment was announced January 19, 1970 by L. Preston Gise and M. Allen Hatfield, President of Leisure Dynamics, Inc. parent company of Cox.

The new President, a graduate of the University of Michigan and a former Air Force officer, joined Cox in 1952 and has been Executive Vice President and General Manager since 1962. Mr. Selzer, who is 44, resides with his wife and three children in the North Tustin area.

(end)

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 6:24:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

To my knowledge, the only F3 was produced under the Cox name. Life-Like produced an F7.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 8, 2018, at 12:48 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John,

So then, you're saying that there was no metal F-3 included in HoSeeker's 1962 Varney catalog(?). Sure looked to me that was what you meant. Can you please clarify that, as I'm still not sure where the 1962 catalog is connected to the F-3 in your statement. As for the photos you sent, just as with any other photo attached through Yahoo's Neo, I'm unable to open them ever since Neo came about several years ago. Yes, Sol Kramer made plastic body F-3's at least up through 1966. I don't have any later Varney catalogs to know what he made after that time before he converted his Varney line into Life Like Products which appeared to take place when he put Ying Lai Cheng in charge of Varney, for Life-Like in 1972. Kramer was already involved with Life-Like by 1971. If plastic F-3 models were being produced under the Life-Like name, they most assuredly were Varney F-3's originally; I don't know what was produced in Life-Like.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 8:29 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John...

Hope you enjoyed your Oreo's when you "put the rest away!" While I wasn't actually planning on describing why I didn't change the subject line after Denny's message appeared before mine, but I thought some kind of explanation was needed top clarify that. Time does have a way of slipping by, when we have no purpose to expedite things as retirees < g >.   Interesting to note that you've taken a preference for (Gordon) Varney products over Kramer's. As I see it, Gordon Varney was in it to promote the hobby while of course making money for the company, and his name and reputation was on the line with the products he offered. With that, he produced only items that he thought were best engineered and manufactured to meet the needs of the hobbyists knowing that anything less would have the hobbyist soon migrating to other manufacturers. While this is not meant as a reflection on Sol Kramer, it very much appears that he rested on the laurels of the Varney product name and didn't seem to promote it any further but instead look for ways to save money on anything he could that Gordon Varney produced in the past.

He (Kramer) was a business man first and his main objective was to make money. Why else would he switch to Japanese motors when Pittman's motors made here in the U.S. were universally known as the best? Why else did Kramer eventually move the Varney tooling from Miami to Taiwan in 1968? Why else did Kramer then transfer operations to Hong Kong and then have Ying Lai Cheng put in charge, with making Wai Shing Ting the plant manager? While Ting did have expertise in producing models, not very many American H0 manufacturers found the need to move their operations to the Far East, Roy Cox being one exception. True, Kramer needed to find some cost-cutting near the end -- before he converted his Varney products into Life-Like with - which he was involved in since 1950 -- but if he maintained the same quality as Gordon Varney he wouldn't have needed to. BTW, he (Kramer) and his brother Lou, along with Lewis Glaser, founded Revell in 1952. It has been established that Sol Kramer's original intent in buying the Varney Company was to sell the Varney operation to Revell (as per David Spanagel, in his Varney Trains Greenberg Guide book). Gordon Varney's involvement with his own company that he had built up was a labor of love. Sol Kramer appears to have gone into it strictly for the money, starting out in 1932 producing model airplanes under the Burd Model Airplane Company (Philadelphia, PA). While I can still appreciate some of Sol Kramer's Varney compant products, some -- like the Aerotrain -- which he carried over intact from Gordon Varney, I've come to learn that I need to be selective with many of his others.

I seem to vaguely recall seeing a Varney NW-2 Switcher or two up on eBay, having Hobbytown mechanism, but not having any interest I dismissed them from further thought. So, while I can't definitely say that a Hobbytown mechanism will fit in a Varney NW-2 shell, as best I'm aware of by these recollections, it should be able to be done.  The Varney NW-2 did not have a frame, but there was a fiber pivot bar sandwiched between the DC-60 motor and the power truck, which was screwed to the bottom of the body under the side walkways. The unpowered truck has a brass body bolster spanning the body and attached to it the same way, which the truck bolster is attached to. Kramer had no plastic body NW-2.

I went up on HoSeeker and checked out what was shown as the Varney 1962 catalog. It seemingly has three sites to open to: 1) Locomotives, Motors, 2) Train Sets, 3) Freight Cars, Accessories. The front cover of this catalog is being shown having a large section on the "NEW - The Fabulous KM-1 !" This is the only 1962 Varney catalog I saw; please steer me to another one if it exists. In trying to open the Locomotives, Motors section, only the very top of the same front page of this catalog was displayed -- as VARNEY (in red letters on the left) and 1962's Greatest Train Values Catalog in a box on the right. Nothing else showed and this is the first time I've gone up to HoSeeker and not having the page I choose, open.   Still while I can't seem to access what you're stating about this catalog offering a metal shell F-3, my only inclination is to say you may have misread something there. Can you send a photo of that to the Group? It's understood that nothing's impossible, and just perhaps Kramer was selling off some surplus metal shell F-3's left over from the mid-'50's, but it still seems bizarre to say the least.

I'd only like to add, while on the "1962 metal F-3" topic, that when I opened the undated HoSeeker < hoseeker.org > Varney Brochure to the right of the Varney 1962 Catalog and went to "Engines," that the # 2808 GM 1000 HP Switcher (NW-2) had a caption between it and the # 2813 powered F-3 Diesel in which it stated having an "All-Metal Body," and I'm left wondering if perhaps this is where you came to the conclusion of metal body F-3's being produced under Sol Kramer -- only because such a model had never been made known to anyone I've known having knowledge of Varney products, including Dick Mercer (Varney S.E.. United States rep) and Hal Fletcher (Varney N.E United States rep) in all the many discussions I had with these guys at Hal's Queens, NY apartment. I'm still open to accepting this though, but I've never even seen any literature on it.

Then to, regarding your thought about finding a Varney eight-wheel drive version -- with possibly using Hobbytown truck and gear tower, are we back to the NW-2 or are we talking about the "Kramer metal F-3" which I have doubts on?

Ray Wetzel



Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

<image001.jpg>

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

<image002.jpg>

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

<image003.jpg>
<image003.jpg>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26787	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

This article explains the difference between an Nw-2 and an SW-7. In order to get the facts, you need to read the whole discussion. Some feel the NW-2 came out in 1939, but I think they are confusing that with an SW-1, which is smaller. NW-2 and SW-7 are very similar.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/54024/683346.aspx

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I am not saying there was no metal F3’s in the 1962 catalog.

I am saying that the photo showed Varney F3’s. There was no mention of whether they were metal or plastic.

As I was, as stated, unaware that Kramer had produced plastic shelled F3’s until you just now mentioned it.

The 1962 catalog in hoseeker that I referred to link is just below

http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1962pg01.jpg

I’ve attached the switcher portion of that page and does state it has a metal shell.

I’ve also attached the F3 part of the same page that makes no mention of what the shell(s) are made of.

If you cannot see the photos in the attachments I’ll send them to you directly.

There are no other Varney catalogs on hoseeker that I could find from after 1957 so I know, or have I claimed to know, anything more about the Kramer years of Varney.

John Hagen

John,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26788	From: Brad Smith	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray:

I bought the Cox, US Army F3, repowered it and painted it B&M Minuteman. It was a nice body and the only F3 out there.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26789	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

For some reason the YahooGroups phot posting is not working properly. It either hangs or it says completed, but the picture is not showing up. As you can see, I have been able to upload photos previously, but YahooGroups doesn't appear to be working properly for uploading photos.

Anyway, I will attach it here for your viewing.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jgpedwards@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 8:17 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Vic,

Pictures RE: the wiper installation, aren't showing in the posting on the group

-Jeff

Canada

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26790	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hi Vic,

I had no problem opening this shot of your Varney NW-2 with Hobbytown Drive. I received it yesterday, and I see it was sent again today. As I said, Nice job.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/9/2018 11:32:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

For some reason the YahooGroups phot posting is not working properly. It either hangs or it says completed, but the picture is not showing up. As you can see, I have been able to upload photos previously, but YahooGroups doesn't appear to be working properly for uploading photos.

Anyway, I will attach it here for your viewing.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jgpedwards@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 8:17 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Vic,

Pictures RE: the wiper installation, aren't showing in the posting on the group

-Jeff

Canada

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26791	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad,

Since the Cox F-3 appears to be a Varney, it's no wonder it has a nice body. I'm assuming you read my latest post on Cox, and Varney which I trust you may have found interesting.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/9/2018 10:34:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray:

I bought the Cox, US Army F3, repowered it and painted it B&M Minuteman. It was a nice body and the only F3 out there.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26792	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Hi Vic,

Yes, I'm aware of the differences between the prototype NW-2 and the SW-7. My issue is that Kramer's SW-7 model most probably used the same NW-2 dies, with him just renaming it as a newer EMD switcher. His SW-7 appears virtually unchanged from the previous NW-2 he had been producing. Perhaps his purpose was to create a larger market for a model (SW-7) that hadn't been marketed yet -- feeling the modelers wouldn't know the difference.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/9/2018 11:07:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This article explains the difference between an Nw-2 and an SW-7. In order to get the facts, you need to read the whole discussion. Some feel the NW-2 came out in 1939, but I think they are confusing that with an SW-1, which is smaller. NW-2 and SW-7 are very similar.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/54024/683346.aspx

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

That catalog # 700 - SW-7 is the same model I saw in my 1966 catalog. I have to wonder why Kramer changed it's designation from an NW-2 to an SW-7 when it's the same model Gordon created.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 3:24 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I am not saying there was no metal F3’s in the 1962 catalog.

I am saying that the photo showed Varney F3’s. There was no mention of whether they were metal or plastic.

As I was, as stated, unaware that Kramer had produced plastic shelled F3’s until you just now mentioned it.

So far as the photos attached, they came from an earlier post by someone else when I responded to their post. I have no idea what they of or where they came from. Frankly I’ve never bothered to open them.

The 1962 catalog in hoseeker that I referred to link is just below

http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1962pg01.jpg

I’ve attached the switcher portion of that page and does state it has a metal shell.

I’ve also attached the F3 part of the same page that makes no mention of what the shell(s) are made of.

If you cannot see the photos in the attachments I’ll send them to you directly.

There are no other Varney catalogs on hoseeker that I could find from after 1957 so I know, or have I claimed to know, anything more about the Kramer years of Varney.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups..com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 12:49 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

So then, you're saying that there was no metal F-3 included in HoSeeker's 1962 Varney catalog(?). Sure looked to me that was what you meant. Can you please clarify that, as I'm still not sure where the 1962 catalog is connected to the F-3 in your statement. As for the photos you sent, just as with any other photo attached through Yahoo's Neo, I'm unable to open them ever since Neo came about several years ago. Yes, Sol Kramer made plastic body F-3's at least up through 1966. I don't have any later Varney catalogs to know what he made after that time before he converted his Varney line into Life Like Products which appeared to take place when he put Ying Lai Cheng in charge of Varney, for Life-Like in 1972. Kramer was already involved with Life-Like by 1971. If plastic F-3 models were being produced under the Life-Like name, they most assuredly were Varney F-3's originally; I don't know what was produced in Life-Like..

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26793	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Hi Ray,

I agree the Varney version is an NW-2, no question. The Athearn version is pretty much an SW-7. Athearn did come out with an SW-1200, but not sure it is prototypically correct.

Regarding Kramer's, I don't know, never seen one. The easiest difference is to look at the front grill. The NW-2 has a smaller grill located about midway of the front. The SW-7 has pretty much a full grill. See the following.

http://yardlimit.railfan.net/emd/spotting/index.html

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 11:50 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hi Vic,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/9/2018 11:07:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This article explains the difference between an Nw-2 and an SW-7. In order to get the facts, you need to read the whole discussion. Some feel the NW-2 came out in 1939, but I think they are confusing that with an SW-1, which is smaller. NW-2 and SW-7 are very similar.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/54024/683346.aspx

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

That catalog # 700 - SW-7 is the same model I saw in my 1966 catalog. I have to wonder why Kramer changed it's designation from an NW-2 to an SW-7 when it's the same model Gordon created.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 3:24 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I am not saying there was no metal F3’s in the 1962 catalog.

I am saying that the photo showed Varney F3’s. There was no mention of whether they were metal or plastic.

As I was, as stated, unaware that Kramer had produced plastic shelled F3’s until you just now mentioned it.

So far as the photos attached, they came from an earlier post by someone else when I responded to their post. I have no idea what they of or where they came from. Frankly I’ve never bothered to open them.

The 1962 catalog in hoseeker that I referred to link is just below

http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1962pg01.jpg

I’ve attached the switcher portion of that page and does state it has a metal shell.

I’ve also attached the F3 part of the same page that makes no mention of what the shell(s) are made of.

If you cannot see the photos in the attachments I’ll send them to you directly.

There are no other Varney catalogs on hoseeker that I could find from after 1957 so I know, or have I claimed to know, anything more about the Kramer years of Varney.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups..com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 12:49 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

So then, you're saying that there was no metal F-3 included in HoSeeker's 1962 Varney catalog(?). Sure looked to me that was what you meant. Can you please clarify that, as I'm still not sure where the 1962 catalog is connected to the F-3 in your statement. As for the photos you sent, just as with any other photo attached through Yahoo's Neo, I'm unable to open them ever since Neo came about several years ago. Yes, Sol Kramer made plastic body F-3's at least up through 1966. I don't have any later Varney catalogs to know what he made after that time before he converted his Varney line into Life Like Products which appeared to take place when he put Ying Lai Cheng in charge of Varney, for Life-Like in 1972. Kramer was already involved with Life-Like by 1971. If plastic F-3 models were being produced under the Life-Like name, they most assuredly were Varney F-3's originally; I don't know what was produced in Life-Like..

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26794	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Yeah, I've got a broken one. I keep eyeballing it wondering if i couldn't "fix" it with wire steps. It's too late for it to be original, so making it functional might be an option, if I don't make it worse by trying. Currently, it's not even a shelf queen, just stuck in a box. I'm open to suggestions.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2/6/18, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 6, 2018, 5:27 PM

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the info. Easy to see I'm no expert on
Penn Line models,
especially the diesels. Didn't know about the shorter
ladders and breaking
them meant not holding the motor in place. They did seem
to have a good
reputation for running well though.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/6/2018 4:53:17 P.M. Eastern
Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello Bob and Ray,

Penn Line did use two
different F7 shells over the
years. The first one they used was from Athearn. It
was on the
single truck powered frame. When they came out with the
dual powered
trucks, they had their own F7 body. The most obvious
difference was the
smaller/shorter ladder steps along the side of the body.
These steps
held the motors in, until they broke. Then you had no
way to have the
motor stay with the body.

The Penn Line GP9 also
used the Athearn shell.

Take care,
Chuck Higdon

From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018
3:20 PM
To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re:
[vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney
Switcher

Bob,

No, as
far as I know, the Penn Line shells were not any of the
Athearn shells.
Sol Kramer had no connection with Irv Athearn in buying
shells from him, and
had no reason to when he bought Bob Faust's tooling
to produce his own
F-7 shells. Athearn did produce two different F-7
shells though,
starting with the ones he marketed under the Globe label
and having one
headlight, and then the later Athearn body having dual
headlights -- and
introduced in the early to mid 1960's, the same as
Kramer introduced his. If
someone can add to this, I'm always open to
learning.

Ray
Wetzel

In a
message dated 2/6/2018 2:09:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was
just looking at
the Penn Line diesel photos on HO
Seeker.

Were
the Penn Line F-7 shells Athearn
shells?

Bob
Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

-----
Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@...

[vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent:
Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:16 AM

Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney
Switcher

Bob,

The
Varney F-7 -- introduced in 1965 by Sol Kramer -- was
NOT a plastic Varney
F-3 shell. In addition to Sol Kramer buying out
Varney in
1957, he had also acquired the F-7 and GG1 portion
of Penn
Line's tooling from Bob Faust at the January 29,
1964 auction (with
Penn Line having gone bankrupt) -- along with Lew
English (Bowser)
acquiring the tooling and dies for the steam engine
portion of the Penn
Line company. He (Kramer) then produced the Penn
Line F-7 diesel
shells to use with the Varney F-3 mechanisms he was
previously using with
the Varney F-3's he had been producing up until
1965 (some roadnames of
this F-3 model even being discontinued by 1964 -- ACL,
FEC, and
CRI&P). These can be identified as having two
headlights and
screen louvers along the top of the engine in place of
where "chicken
wire" screens were. Shortly afterwards, the
Penn Line frame and
power drive was used with these Penn Line F-7 shells
and sold under
Kramer's Varney brand name. They were offered in
B&O, C&NW,
ATSF, PRR and SP roadnames. After Varney, Kramer
used these
same models for his Life-Like line of
models.

Ray
Wetzel

In
a message dated 2/6/2018 8:53:22 A.M. Eastern Standard
Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

BTW:

Was
the Varney F-7 just a plastic F-3 shell sold as a
F-7?

Were
the F-7 power trucks (not the motor) better than the
earlier F-3 and SW
trucks? I have a couple of these I got off eBay but
have not done
anything with yet.

Bob
Macklin
Seattle,
Wa.

-----
Original Message -----

From:
eriepacific@...

[vintageHO]

To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent:
Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:48
AM

Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney
Switcher

Jeff,

Yes,
precisely; "Twin Drive" referred to two
power trucks connected by a
drive shaft and powered by one motor -- NOT two
motors. I had
thought about clarifying that very notion, but
sent on the message
without it. Similar in concept to the F-3
"Brute" (both, #
2060K - A-Unit or # 2061K - B-Unit) having one
motor and powering
a second truck through a drive shaft.

Ray

In
a message dated 2/5/2018 10:44:47 P.M. Eastern
Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

By
twin drive you mean via drive shaft to second
truck, not like a
Mantua F9 with two separate trucks, each having
it's own
motor?

Thanks,

Jeff

Canada

--

"Defeats
always teach lessons,

Victories
sometimes do."

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893 --
#yiv5147462893ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mkp #yiv5147462893hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mkp #yiv5147462893ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mkp .yiv5147462893ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mkp .yiv5147462893ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mkp .yiv5147462893ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5147462893ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5147462893ygrp-lc #yiv5147462893hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5147462893ygrp-lc .yiv5147462893ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893activity span
.yiv5147462893underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5147462893 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5147462893 dd.yiv5147462893last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5147462893 dd.yiv5147462893last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5147462893 dd.yiv5147462893last p
span.yiv5147462893yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv5147462893 div.yiv5147462893attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5147462893 div.yiv5147462893attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv5147462893 div.yiv5147462893file-title a, #yiv5147462893
div.yiv5147462893file-title a:active, #yiv5147462893
div.yiv5147462893file-title a:hover, #yiv5147462893
div.yiv5147462893file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5147462893 div.yiv5147462893photo-title a,
#yiv5147462893 div.yiv5147462893photo-title a:active,
#yiv5147462893 div.yiv5147462893photo-title a:hover,
#yiv5147462893 div.yiv5147462893photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5147462893 div#yiv5147462893ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv5147462893ygrp-msg p a span.yiv5147462893yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv5147462893 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5147462893 .yiv5147462893replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv5147462893 input, #yiv5147462893 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv5147462893
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-mlmsg #yiv5147462893logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-msg
p#yiv5147462893attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-reco
#yiv5147462893reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-sponsor #yiv5147462893ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-sponsor #yiv5147462893ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-sponsor #yiv5147462893ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv5147462893 #yiv5147462893ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv5147462893

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26795	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

btw, if someone responds, please change the subject something like Penn Line

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 2/9/18, Ken Starcher ohiocanal@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 9, 2018, 2:02 PM

Yeah, I've got a broken one. I keep eyeballing
it wondering if i couldn't "fix" it with wire
steps. It's too late for it to be original, so making it
functional might be an option, if I don't make it worse
by trying. Currently, it's not even a shelf queen, just
stuck in a box. I'm open to suggestions.

Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221
--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2/6/18, eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Date: Tuesday, February 6, 2018, 5:27 PM
Hi Chuck,
Thanks for the info. Easy to see I'm no expert on Penn Line models, especially the diesels. Didn't know about the
shorter ladders and breaking them meant not holding the motor in place. They did
seem to have a good reputation for running well though.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26796	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

On an NW2, the two center, front cab windows are arched at the top. Not same on an SW.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:27 AM, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Ray,

I agree the Varney version is an NW-2, no question. The Athearn version is pretty much an SW-7. Athearn did come out with an SW-1200, but not sure it is prototypically correct.

Regarding Kramer's, I don't know, never seen one. The easiest difference is to look at the front grill. The NW-2 has a smaller grill located about midway of the front. The SW-7 has pretty much a full grill. See the following.

http://yardlimit.railfan.net/emd/spotting/index.html

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 11:50 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hi Vic,

Yes, I'm aware of the differences between the prototype NW-2 and the SW-7. My issue is that Kramer's SW-7 model most probably used the same NW-2 dies, with him just renaming it as a newer EMD switcher. His SW-7 appears virtually unchanged from the previous NW-2 he had been producing. Perhaps his purpose was to create a larger market for a model (SW-7) that hadn't been marketed yet -- feeling the modelers wouldn't know the difference.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/9/2018 11:07:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This article explains the difference between an Nw-2 and an SW-7. In order to get the facts, you need to read the whole discussion. Some feel the NW-2 came out in 1939, but I think they are confusing that with an SW-1, which is smaller. NW-2 and SW-7 are very similar.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/54024/683346.aspx

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

That catalog # 700 - SW-7 is the same model I saw in my 1966 catalog. I have to wonder why Kramer changed it's designation from an NW-2 to an SW-7 when it's the same model Gordon created.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 3:24 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I am not saying there was no metal F3’s in the 1962 catalog.

I am saying that the photo showed Varney F3’s. There was no mention of whether they were metal or plastic.

As I was, as stated, unaware that Kramer had produced plastic shelled F3’s until you just now mentioned it.

So far as the photos attached, they came from an earlier post by someone else when I responded to their post. I have no idea what they of or where they came from. Frankly I’ve never bothered to open them.

The 1962 catalog in hoseeker that I referred to link is just below

http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1962pg01.jpg

I’ve attached the switcher portion of that page and does state it has a metal shell.

I’ve also attached the F3 part of the same page that makes no mention of what the shell(s) are made of.

If you cannot see the photos in the attachments I’ll send them to you directly.

There are no other Varney catalogs on hoseeker that I could find from after 1957 so I know, or have I claimed to know, anything more about the Kramer years of Varney.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups...com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 12:49 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

So then, you're saying that there was no metal F-3 included in HoSeeker's 1962 Varney catalog(?). Sure looked to me that was what you meant. Can you please clarify that, as I'm still not sure where the 1962 catalog is connected to the F-3 in your statement. As for the photos you sent, just as with any other photo attached through Yahoo's Neo, I'm unable to open them ever since Neo came about several years ago. Yes, Sol Kramer made plastic body F-3's at least up through 1966. I don't have any later Varney catalogs to know what he made after that time before he converted his Varney line into Life Like Products which appeared to take place when he put Ying Lai Cheng in charge of Varney, for Life-Like in 1972. Kramer was already involved with Life-Like by 1971. If plastic F-3 models were being produced under the Life-Like name, they most assuredly were Varney F-3's originally; I don't know what was produced in Life-Like..

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

<image001.jpg>

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

<image002.jpg>

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

<image003.jpg>
<image003.jpg>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26797	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Vic,

Thanks for sending that link to the various NW and SW switchers. That's well worth saving, and it's going right into my files. Makes it very easy telling them all apart.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/9/2018 12:52:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Ray,

I agree the Varney version is an NW-2, no question. The Athearn version is pretty much an SW-7. Athearn did come out with an SW-1200, but not sure it is prototypically correct.

Regarding Kramer's, I don't know, never seen one. The easiest difference is to look at the front grill. The NW-2 has a smaller grill located about midway of the front. The SW-7 has pretty much a full grill. See the following.

http://yardlimit.railfan.net/emd/spotting/index.html

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 11:50 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Hi Vic,

Yes, I'm aware of the differences between the prototype NW-2 and the SW-7. My issue is that Kramer's SW-7 model most probably used the same NW-2 dies, with him just renaming it as a newer EMD switcher. His SW-7 appears virtually unchanged from the previous NW-2 he had been producing. Perhaps his purpose was to create a larger market for a model (SW-7) that hadn't been marketed yet -- feeling the modelers wouldn't know the difference.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/9/2018 11:07:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This article explains the difference between an Nw-2 and an SW-7. In order to get the facts, you need to read the whole discussion. Some feel the NW-2 came out in 1939, but I think they are confusing that with an SW-1, which is smaller. NW-2 and SW-7 are very similar.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/54024/683346.aspx

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

That catalog # 700 - SW-7 is the same model I saw in my 1966 catalog. I have to wonder why Kramer changed it's designation from an NW-2 to an SW-7 when it's the same model Gordon created.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 8, 2018 3:24 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I am not saying there was no metal F3’s in the 1962 catalog.

I am saying that the photo showed Varney F3’s. There was no mention of whether they were metal or plastic.

As I was, as stated, unaware that Kramer had produced plastic shelled F3’s until you just now mentioned it.

So far as the photos attached, they came from an earlier post by someone else when I responded to their post. I have no idea what they of or where they came from. Frankly I’ve never bothered to open them.

The 1962 catalog in hoseeker that I referred to link is just below

http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1962pg01.jpg

I’ve attached the switcher portion of that page and does state it has a metal shell.

I’ve also attached the F3 part of the same page that makes no mention of what the shell(s) are made of.

If you cannot see the photos in the attachments I’ll send them to you directly.

There are no other Varney catalogs on hoseeker that I could find from after 1957 so I know, or have I claimed to know, anything more about the Kramer years of Varney.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups...com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 12:49 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John,

So then, you're saying that there was no metal F-3 included in HoSeeker's 1962 Varney catalog(?). Sure looked to me that was what you meant. Can you please clarify that, as I'm still not sure where the 1962 catalog is connected to the F-3 in your statement. As for the photos you sent, just as with any other photo attached through Yahoo's Neo, I'm unable to open them ever since Neo came about several years ago. Yes, Sol Kramer made plastic body F-3's at least up through 1966. I don't have any later Varney catalogs to know what he made after that time before he converted his Varney line into Life Like Products which appeared to take place when he put Ying Lai Cheng in charge of Varney, for Life-Like in 1972. Kramer was already involved with Life-Like by 1971. If plastic F-3 models were being produced under the Life-Like name, they most assuredly were Varney F-3's originally; I don't know what was produced in Life-Like..

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/8/2018 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I didn’t make my comment on the metal shell clear. It was only intended for the switcher.

The comment about the F3’s was to indicate the photo showed the Varney F3, which was supported by the caption, rather than the later F7.

I am not aware that Kramer sold any plastic versions of the F3 but I could well be in error there.

A lot, well a few at least, did get into model train manufacturing/importing in from the mid-50’s into the 70’s mainly for the profit potential. Model railroading was a hot item back then and there was money to be made.

Kramer was just one of many but he happened upon well known, quality line that he could buy. Kinda like Lew English and Bowser. The difference was that English was into model railroading while Kramer was into profit.

Nothing wrong with profit as that is necessary to keep product in production. While I am not positive on the break out but I believe your production costs on a $25.00 retail production had to be in the $8.00 - $10..00 -range if you were to make a buck. That bare, beautiful F3 sitting on your table is going to incur a lot of extra costs on its way to the customer, including one, likely at least two, middlemen.

So let’s say you can live with, maybe a $9.00 gross (which, put that way, sounds improbable), how much are you willing to cut that cost just to put more money in your pocket? So you fudge a bit here and there on correct details. Who’s gonna notice? Even as a 7 year old, I noticed. And I recognized changes made that cheapened the products.

When I said a Varney, I was referring to product built by Gordon.

John Hagen

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (1)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26798	From: rcjge	Date: 2/9/2018
Subject: Re: EE Deltic (was Mystery FM Body)

Don,

Don't know where you are, but I have a complete "Kitmaster" EE Deltic in the original box...

-Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26799	From: anypaddler	Date: 2/10/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob Macklin wrote:

< The Athearn drive has a plastic shell and a zinc frame. The Varney Yard Switcher body is the frame.

-----------------------

Not only that, but the Athearn motor may not fit into the Varney shell. The oversize motor is what forced Athearn's GP-9 (really a GP-7) to have hoods that are about a scale foot wider than the prototype. I have a Varney hood/frame casting somewhere; maybe I can find it and check. The other problem would be cutting the Athearn frame down to fit inside the Varney body; I'm not sure it can be done.

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26800	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/10/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

I wouldn't even think about it.

It's either a Varney NW-2 or an Athearn SW-7!

My memory says the Athearn SW-7 ran better than the Varney NW-2.

In 1955 I got a Globe F-7. That was a major improvement over the Varney units. I still have it and probably 6 or 8 more.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 9:36 AM

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob Macklin wrote:

< The Athearn drive has a plastic shell and a zinc frame. The Varney Yard Switcher body is the frame.

-----------------------

Not only that, but the Athearn motor may not fit into the Varney shell. The oversize motor is what forced Athearn's GP-9 (really a GP-7) to have hoods that are about a scale foot wider than the prototype. I have a Varney hood/frame casting somewhere; maybe I can find it and check. The other problem would be cutting the Athearn frame down to fit inside the Varney body; I'm not sure it can be done.

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26801	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/10/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Ralph,

Athearn replaced that motor way back in the later 80’s I believe. I know it was before, or coincided with, their SD40-2 model as that had prototype width hoods as did all their diesels from there on.

So there’s a ton of Athearn switcher out there with narrow motors.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 11:37 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Bob Macklin wrote:

< The Athearn drive has a plastic shell and a zinc frame. The Varney Yard Switcher body is the frame.

-----------------------

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26802	From: Brad Smith	Date: 2/10/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Get a newer Athearn switcher with the narrow motor.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Feb 10, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Bob Macklin wrote:

< The Athearn drive has a plastic shell and a zinc frame. The Varney Yard Switcher body is the frame.

-----------------------

Not only that, but the Athearn motor may not fit into the Varney shell. The oversize motor is what forced Athearn's GP-9 (really a GP-7) to have hoods that are about a scale foot wider than the prototype. I have a Varney hood/frame casting somewhere; maybe I can find it and check. The other problem would be cutting the Athearn frame down to fit inside the Varney body; I'm not sure it can be done.

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26803	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/10/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Yep, that would work. You would need to remove about .025 to .030 from each side of the fuel tank area on the Athearn chassis, but it looks like it is a drop in otherwise. That is with the newer more narrow motor/flywheel assembly. Of course there may be a bit more filing (but, not much) and a way to actually mount the body to the chassis with screws would need to be figured out. Of course my Hobbytown of Boston chassis, just fits in and I did not come up with a method of fastening. I am just careful of picking it up by the chassis and not the body.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:58 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Get a newer Athearn switcher with the narrow motor.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Feb 10, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Bob Macklin wrote:

< The Athearn drive has a plastic shell and a zinc frame. The Varney Yard Switcher body is the frame.

-----------------------

Not only that, but the Athearn motor may not fit into the Varney shell. The oversize motor is what forced Athearn's GP-9 (really a GP-7) to have hoods that are about a scale foot wider than the prototype. I have a Varney hood/frame casting somewhere; maybe I can find it and check. The other problem would be cutting the Athearn frame down to fit inside the Varney body; I'm not sure it can be done.

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26804	From: louis niederlander	Date: 2/10/2018
Subject: Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

Keep in mind, however, that one hour's work paid for the monthly copies of MR and RMC!

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 1:41 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

At the hobby shop where I worked in 1963, I made $1.00 per hour.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 8, 2018, at 6:06 PM, louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

My first job was at Sparks Hobby Shop in Cleveland. Big bucks....75c an hour in 1965.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 10:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Regearing a Varney Switcher

I got my Varney Dockside for my 12th birthday in 1946.. $9.95? I got a Strombeker Rock Island Rocket. I used Varney freight trucks on it.

I remember the late 40's freight car kits that were a few blocks of wood with cardboard sides. They still show up on eBay.

In the late 40's I cut lawns for 25 cents! It took 4 lawns to get a dollar!

I worked for the SP in San Francisco during the summers of 1951 and 1952. The SP was running steam at that time. I went into the USAF in August 1952. When I got out of the USAF in October 1958 the SP has dieslized.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26805	From: anypaddler	Date: 2/11/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

John Hagen wrote:

< Athearn replaced that motor way back in the later 80’s I believe.

----------------------------

Shows you how old my Athearn switchers are. I actually have one with brass wheels, and I'll put that up against anything with a can motor. I do have some road units with the newer motor.

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26806	From: lefcguy	Date: 2/12/2018
Subject: Aristocraft foil stickers

Does anyone know if there are reproduction or original foil stickers for the old Aristo Craft pioneer and Golden Age locomotives? Some of my engines are missing them...

Thanks.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26807	From: Alfred Erdmann	Date: 2/12/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3957

I started working for a road construction company with my dad in 1946 at age 13, made 90 cents per hour. Worked there every summer, after school, until 1950 when joined USAF. Made enough to save for new car when returned from overseas in 1955. Bought model railroad magazines every month. First model was a Rivarrosi 0-4-0 tank model, 6 volts.
Al Erdmann

>
> At the hobby shop where I worked in 1963, I made $1.00 per hour.
>
> Brad Smith
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26808	From: the_plainsman	Date: 2/14/2018
Subject: Re: Aristocraft foil stickers

Hi "lefcguy" I've had a standing search for Aristocraft on eBay for a number of years and can't remember seeing any of the foil stickers being sold individually there. I suppose a difficult alternative is to find junkers that have stickers in good condition ( however unlikely) and carefully remove them, possibly using a glue solvent. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26809	From: Jeff Parsons	Date: 2/16/2018
Subject: Re: Aristocraft foil stickers

Thanks for the reply. I've done the same thing, and just decided to check in here and hit the lottery! Good hunting!

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:29 AM, "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26810	From: rshiel01	Date: 2/16/2018
Subject: looking for

Got a bounce when I posted...looking for current e-mail for Barry Doe (trainbus), Uncasville CT.

Thanks all, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26811	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/17/2018
Subject: Re: Aristocraft foil stickers

Attachments :

If one side is still good, you could take a photo and then print on sticker paper. Today’s paper may be thinner.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 1:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aristocraft foil stickers

Thanks for the reply. I've done the same thing, and just decided to check in here and hit the lottery! Good hunting!

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:29 AM, "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26812	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/18/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

This weekend at the Madison, WI train show, I looked at the guy’s table who sells the vintage HO. He had a box of chassis/drives and in it were two Varney F7 chassis that had a rubber band drive between the motor shaft and the single powered truck. There was a three step belt pulley on each shaft. What vintage Varney would this had been? It appeared one could move the belt between the three steps on the pulley and get a different speed rratio. This is not the Varney that I have seen. “Varney” was in raised letters on the lower cover of the trucks.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26813	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/18/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad,

This certainly is not "Off Subject," but right on topic here. As it appears your not familiar with this Varney mechanism design, and as it appears you're referring to a Varney F7 -- apparently the plastic Penn Line shell that Sol Kramer started using in 1965 to be sold as Varney -- This three-step belt pulley arrangement on the power (motor) and powered (truck) shafts is the original mechanism design for the die-cast F-3 in 1948. It used a steel spring belt to wrap around the two pulleys, placed on shafts of the modelers choice to alter the speeds of the loco. The power truck is 3-piece diecast with "Varney" in raised letters on the truck bottom covers. It never used rubber bands, but it looks like some "enterprising" and innovative modeler not only installed this mechanism in an F-Unit body where it was never intended to be used, but also used rubber bands in place of the original spring belt, perhaps because it became lost; these spring belts just don't wear out or break -- unless the loco has run over 500 K miles < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/18/2018 10:08:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This weekend at the Madison, WI train show, I looked at the guy’s table who sells the vintage HO. He had a box of chassis/drives and in it were two Varney F7 chassis that had a rubber band drive between the motor shaft and the single powered truck. There was a three step belt pulley on each shaft. What vintage Varney would this had been? It appeared one could move the belt between the three steps on the pulley and get a different speed rratio. This is not the Varney that I have seen. “Varney” was in raised letters on the lower cover of the trucks.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26814	From: Corlissbs	Date: 2/19/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Ray, these were only chassis, no bodies. So the body probably would have been an F3, knowing what you told me. I went back to photograph them and both were gone. Someone from our group? They were $5 each. I had never seen a Varney F3 or switcher, as in 1960, neither of our LHS would carry Varney. For diesels, Athearn, Mantua and Penn Line was what they mainly sold. With a little Revell. The owner of the shop where I worked would run a brand of engine and if he didn’t like it, he wouldn’t carry it. He was a model railroader himself with a huge attic railroad. I only saw Varney on the rear cove of Model Railroader. It wasn’t until I started collecting, that I bought a used Varney switcher in New Haven colors. I believe it to be of Sol’s make because it has the scare striping on the ends and side sill. Incidentally, the New Haven SW’s were not painted in a scheme anything like that.

The .show seller also had two nib Varney PRR stainless passenger cars too. That brings up a question. Are the Varney and the Penn Line stainless cars from the same mold? They look like it.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 19, 2018, at 12:21 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

This certainly is not "Off Subject," but right on topic here. As it appears your not familiar with this Varney mechanism design, and as it appears you're referring to a Varney F7 -- apparently the plastic Penn Line shell that Sol Kramer started using in 1965 to be sold as Varney -- This three-step belt pulley arrangement on the power (motor) and powered (truck) shafts is the original mechanism design for the die-cast F-3 in 1948. It used a steel spring belt to wrap around the two pulleys, placed on shafts of the modelers choice to alter the speeds of the loco. The power truck is 3-piece diecast with "Varney" in raised letters on the truck bottom covers. It never used rubber bands, but it looks like some "enterprising" and innovative modeler not only installed this mechanism in an F-Unit body where it was never intended to be used, but also used rubber bands in place of the original spring belt, perhaps because it became lost; these spring belts just don't wear out or break -- unless the loco has run over 500 K miles < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/18/2018 10:08:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This weekend at the Madison, WI train show, I looked at the guy’s table who sells the vintage HO. He had a box of chassis/drives and in it were two Varney F7 chassis that had a rubber band drive between the motor shaft and the single powered truck. There was a three step belt pulley on each shaft. What vintage Varney would this had been? It appeared one could move the belt between the three steps on the pulley and get a different speed rratio. This is not the Varney that I have seen. “Varney” was in raised letters on the lower cover of the trucks.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26815	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/19/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad,

That's unfortunate that you missed them. Couldn't get them more reasonable either -- and with no shipping to pay. So at least now you know what they are and what to look for if you really want to get them. They're very decent runners, even though they can't pull as much as the Varney Brute mechanism. Maybe if you see them again, they'll have the steel spring belts on them. Hard to describe but once you see them they're unmistakable.

Yes, the Varney PRR plastic shell "Stainless Steel" passenger cars used the same mold as the Penn Line cars. Sol Kramer produced them from 1965 through 1968. He later offered them under the Life-Like brand. The ones he produced as Varney had especially bad Zamak metal in the trucks and often didn't hold up. If the ones you saw still had good trucks, they should stay good as otherwise they likely would have crumbled by now. The cars came in Baggage, Coach, Full Dome and Observation (lettered "Silver Cloud").

Yes too, on the Varney switcher in the New Haven colors, with "safety stripes," being Sol's . . . and yes, while it may be basic NH orange & green, it's far from being what the scheme looked like. I hope it at least runs for you! I have one myself; didn't run from the day I got it (at a train meet) and one of these days I plan on putting the original NW-2 mechanism under it.

Ray

In a message dated 2/19/2018 12:27:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray, these were only chassis, no bodies. So the body probably would have been an F3, knowing what you told me. I went back to photograph them and both were gone. Someone from our group? They were $5 each. I had never seen a Varney F3 or switcher, as in 1960, neither of our LHS would carry Varney. For diesels, Athearn, Mantua and Penn Line was what they mainly sold. With a little Revell. The owner of the shop where I worked would run a brand of engine and if he didn’t like it, he wouldn’t carry it. He was a model railroader himself with a huge attic railroad. I only saw Varney on the rear cove of Model Railroader. It wasn’t until I started collecting, that I bought a used Varney switcher in New Haven colors. I believe it to be of Sol’s make because it has the scare striping on the ends and side sill. Incidentally, the New Haven SW’s were not painted in a scheme anything like that.

The .show seller also had two nib Varney PRR stainless passenger cars too. That brings up a question. Are the Varney and the Penn Line stainless cars from the same mold? They look like it.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Feb 19, 2018, at 12:21 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

This certainly is not "Off Subject," but right on topic here. As it appears your not familiar with this Varney mechanism design, and as it appears you're referring to a Varney F7 -- apparently the plastic Penn Line shell that Sol Kramer started using in 1965 to be sold as Varney -- This three-step belt pulley arrangement on the power (motor) and powered (truck) shafts is the original mechanism design for the die-cast F-3 in 1948. It used a steel spring belt to wrap around the two pulleys, placed on shafts of the modelers choice to alter the speeds of the loco. The power truck is 3-piece diecast with "Varney" in raised letters on the truck bottom covers. It never used rubber bands, but it looks like some "enterprising" and innovative modeler not only installed this mechanism in an F-Unit body where it was never intended to be used, but also used rubber bands in place of the original spring belt, perhaps because it became lost; these spring belts just don't wear out or break -- unless the loco has run over 500 K miles < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/18/2018 10:08:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This weekend at the Madison, WI train show, I looked at the guy’s table who sells the vintage HO. He had a box of chassis/drives and in it were two Varney F7 chassis that had a rubber band drive between the motor shaft and the single powered truck. There was a three step belt pulley on each shaft. What vintage Varney would this had been? It appeared one could move the belt between the three steps on the pulley and get a different speed rratio. This is not the Varney that I have seen. “Varney” was in raised letters on the lower cover of the trucks.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26816	From: anypaddler	Date: 2/20/2018
Subject: Re: Cost of shipping (was Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switc

Ray wrote:

< Couldn't get them more reasonable either -- and with no shipping to pay.

--------------------------------

What most of us don't consider is the cost of show admittance, plus the cost of transportation to/from the show. In my case I can get a reduced rate ($25) bus ride to the big (West) Springfield, Mass. show; if I only buy one boxcar for $5, the actual cost is closer to $50 when I add in entry fee and meals. Just sayin'....

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26817	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/20/2018
Subject: Re: Cost of shipping (was Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varne...

Ya got that part right! While I wasn't considering the cost of transportation to a show that is some distance, I had only assumed Brad had attended a nearby local show. Yes, we can't forget the price of admission, no matter which show we go to -- close or far. I'd still rather buy at shows where I can actually see and inspect the items right before me, and most of the better shows have test tracks to use to see if an engine will run or not. In my own case, there are a number of nearby shows I can go to which may be as far away as 30 miles or as close as 5 miles, with one being about 15 miles from me. I still drive to any of these destinations, with the West Springfield, MA show being about 145 miles away, the Albany, NY show being about 97 miles away. the Allentown, PA show(s) being 131 miles away and the Timonium, MD show being 198 miles from me.

While I rarely go by myself, I have on occasion done so, but I usually take one or two friends (or perhaps one will take me and another friend), depending on who wants to drive, and we split the cost of the gas and any tolls. I never go to a show for that sole purpose (of just taking in the show), but always combine the trip with railroad photography after I come out of the show. When this is considered in, and I take the opportunity to photograph a rail line that I wouldn't otherwise visit that often, the expenses (except for show admission) are split between getting to the show and pursuing another facet of enjoying trains of the 1:1 scale at a location I don't visit as often; another reason for me to travel by car, for mobility in getting to several different locations on the more distant railroads to photograph them while I'm there. I do realize though, that not all modelers are railfans, even though the opportunity often presents itself with rail lines being close by to many shows, but carpooling will still greatly reduce the day's expenses when shared between several show goers. .

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/20/2018 9:40:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray wrote:

< Couldn't get them more reasonable either -- and with no shipping to pay.

--------------------------------

What most of us don't consider is the cost of show admittance, plus the cost of transportation to/from the show. In my case I can get a reduced rate ($25) bus ride to the big (West) Springfield, Mass. show; if I only buy one boxcar for $5, the actual cost is closer to $50 when I add in entry fee and meals. Just sayin'....

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26818	From: Brad Smith	Date: 2/20/2018
Subject: Re: Cost of shipping (was Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varne...

Going to a movie costs money. Playing golf costs money. There is a cost to having fun and entertainment. The train show was in Madison, WI, which is about 70 miles from my home. Madison has a lot of fun things to do and my wife and I make it a little vacation. We go two days early. So, I spent 4 nights in the hotel that is connected to the convention center where the show was held. I don't drive home Sunday night, but stay one more night so I can drive during the daylight. I don't like night driving.

BUT, this being said, I belong to a modular railroad club and we exhibit at the show. In fact, we exhibit at several shows in Wisconsin. Some over a hundred miles from home. We make a vacation of those too. It is fun to be a part of the show. To run trains and to have your modules in the layout. Oh, and admission is free.

Perhaps you could join a club and help out. Be a part of the show. You just might like it and just might have some fun. It really is fun to share the interest with like people.

If all you are going for is to find a bargain on old HO, save the money and buy off eBay. You will be dollars ahead.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26819	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/20/2018
Subject: Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Attachments :

Brad,

Don’t feel too bad as I also missed them.

Of course if you hadn’t posted here about them I would happy as a lark sitting in pile of warm poop on a cold day not knowing they were there.

Oh well…

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 12:56 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varney Switcher

Brad,

Ray

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (47)

Image removed by sender.

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26820	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/20/2018
Subject: Re: Cost of shipping (was Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varne...

I meant to mention, that some shows are strictly, or at least mainly, tinplate, while others are all scale (no tinplate), and exactly that . . . ALL scale (0, S, H0, N, TT, etc.). Some are nearly 100% 0 scale. Still others are mixed as scale models and railroadiana. I do get into those shows free as I help man the tables that my NRHS chapter "buys" to sell goods (railroadiana, etc.) at these shows. There's always a slack period when I get the chance to browse all the H0 tables.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/20/2018 2:47:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Going to a movie costs money. Playing golf costs money. There is a cost to having fun and entertainment. The train show was in Madison, WI, which is about 70 miles from my home. Madison has a lot of fun things to do and my wife and I make it a little vacation. We go two days early. So, I spent 4 nights in the hotel that is connected to the convention center where the show was held. I don't drive home Sunday night, but stay one more night so I can drive during the daylight. I don't like night driving.

BUT, this being said, I belong to a modular railroad club and we exhibit at the show. In fact, we exhibit at several shows in Wisconsin. Some over a hundred miles from home. We make a vacation of those too. It is fun to be a part of the show. To run trains and to have your modules in the layout. Oh, and admission is free.

Perhaps you could join a club and help out. Be a part of the show. You just might like it and just might have some fun. It really is fun to share the interest with like people.

If all you are going for is to find a bargain on old HO, save the money and buy off eBay. You will be dollars ahead.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26821	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/20/2018
Subject: Re: Cost of shipping (was Off Subject, was; Regearing a Varne...

On 2/20/2018 1:47 PM, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Going to a movie costs money. ??Playing golf costs money. ??There is a
> cost to having fun and entertainment. ??The train show was in Madison,
> WI, which is about 70 miles from my home. ??Madison has a lot of fun
> things to do and my wife and I make it a little vacation. ??We go two
> days early. ??So, I spent 4 nights in the hotel that is connected to the
> convention center where the show was held. ??I don't drive home Sunday
> night, but stay one more night so I can drive during the daylight. ??I
> don't like night driving.
>
> BUT, this being said, I belong to a modular railroad club and we exhibit
> at the show. ??In fact, we exhibit at several shows in Wisconsin. ??Some
> over a hundred miles from home. ??We make a vacation of those too. ??It is
> fun to be a part of the show. ??To run trains and to have your modules in
> the layout. ??Oh, and admission is free.
>
> Perhaps you could join a club and help out. ??Be a part of the show. ??You
> just might like it and just might have some fun. ??It really is fun to
> share the interest with like people.
>
> If all you are going for is to find a bargain on old HO, save the money
> and buy off eBay. ??You will be dollars ahead.

We've had two shows here around Houston in the past couple of weeks.
The first was World's Greatest Hobby at NRG Arena. This is located next
to the Astrodome and in a large compound that also includes NRG Stadium
where the Texans play and NRG Center, another convention type of
facility. Parking, if I had driven all the way there was $12. Instead I
parked at the north end light rail station for free and paid the $1.25
for a ticket. It was about an hour ride but I hadn't ridden the light
rail red line the full length before and had fun. Went to the show,
spent too much money, and had another fun ride back to my car.
The second show was this past Saturday, the Greater Houston Train
Show, put on by the San Jacinto Model Railroad Club. No rail rides to
get to Stafford Center where this was held so drove all the way,
probably around 45 miles. Since I left a bit later than I'd hoped I took
the fastest route, which was the Beltway, nailing me for 3 x $1.75
tolls. First pass through the show didn't turn up anything that really
interested me but after going all that way I wasn't going home empty
handed. Bought 2 brass hoppers, a brass tank car, a brass gondola, all
factory painted and nicely weathered, and a Bachmann Spectrum 44 tonner
with DCC (no sound) all for $100 at the Galveston Model Railroad Club
table. I guess I did OK.

--

Rick Jones

Why is it that people say they "slept like a baby" when babies
wake up about every two hours?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26822	From: Jeff Parsons	Date: 2/21/2018
Subject: Re: Aristocraft foil stickers

Thanks, Chuck. That certainly is a clever idea. The model RR museum near me does something similar with draperies for their houses. They copy the printed paper ones from the kit on to transparency; let's more of the light through.

Jeff

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 8:34 AM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

If one side is still good, you could take a photo and then print on sticker paper. Today’s paper may be thinner.

Take care,

Chuck

Thanks for the reply. I've done the same thing, and just decided to check in here and hit the lottery! Good hunting!

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:29 AM, "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26823	From: daddy8083	Date: 2/22/2018
Subject: Speaking of decals...

Hello all... Here in S.E. Pennsylvania it is 76 deg in the last week of February, pretty nice... Anyway, I'm looking for HO decals for the Bowser Liberty Belle Ltd, as well as other Bowser trollies. Anyone know where I can look? The paint will be cream and scarlet. Thanks in advance for any leads.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26824	From: luvprr2003	Date: 2/22/2018
Subject: Re: Speaking of decals...

For LVT cars check out I - Traction Vehicle Decal Lettering Sets - Trolleyville

In a message dated 2/22/2018 6:50:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello all... Here in S.E. Pennsylvania it is 76 deg in the last week of February, pretty nice... Anyway, I'm looking for HO decals for the Bowser Liberty Belle Ltd, as well as other Bowser trollies. Anyone know where I can look? The paint will be cream and scarlet. Thanks in advance for any leads.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26825	From: ocalicreek	Date: 2/24/2018
Subject: Laconia Ralston Purina Ventilated Box Car (Reefer)

Hello All,

I'm going to be rebuilding three (all three #s released) Laconia Ralston Purina box cars in HO. I note from an ad in the 1953 Model Railroader that, "This most colorful of box cars has been scaled from plans and photographs furnished by the Ralston-Purina Co."

I have scoured the internet including the Library of Congress and the St Louis historical society image collections. I have emailed Walthers and they have no information on the disposition of Laconia's files or this car's prototype. I have pored over old photos of random grain elevators and co-ops in the hopes of catching one of these cars spotted there. No luck.

I have reached the point where, since nobody can tell me otherwise, I am going to forge ahead with a detail upgrade of these cars. Based on the idea that the oldest source is likely the most accurate, plus the manufacturer's claim to have used plans and photos in making the kit, I decided to take these kits as the closest thing we have to historic record.

The most interesting details, to me, are the ventilators on the roof. Based on the shape I guessed that they weren't Bohn patent vents, as produced by Westerfield, but rather something more akin to the E Posson design. A few old photos I found show this design in use, and one set even exists still today (perhaps) on an old reefer behind a fruit market in southern California.

I have worked with Bill MacIndoe at Austin Rail Products to provide him as much information I could on these vents. He graciously created cad drawings from Patent office drawings to create this:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/YHG4W2YNR/posson-patent-refrigerated-rail-car-vents-ho?optionId=64776759&li=ostatus

I have purchased three sets and they are incredible looking details.

I am going to post this on the Steam Era Freight Car yahoo group as well as a last-chance for input before I begin work on the purina cars. Also, I think these vents may be a great help to some modelers looking for this specific part. Again, unless someone has the car-builders order forms that show these vents purchased and applied to a specific car, it's all just an educated guess that they were correct. However, I feel like I can upgrade these beautiful cars to have a more realistic, scale appearance and the vents are the most noticeable detail.

If anyone here has any information about Laconia and what happened to their files (after the Binkley purchase, or beyond) or on the prototypes of these cars (photos would be great!, drawings even better), please let me know.

Thanks,

Galen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26826	From: corlissbs	Date: 3/19/2018
Subject: Message For Chuck Kinzer

Chuck, you sent me a pic of your Bowser box cab conversion for the Athearn Hustler. I would like to use it in my article in he HO Collector Could you email me a pic to corlissbs@...? I have the kit new in the box, but the finished product is best. Now, if I only had a Paul Moore conversion body.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26827	From: trainliker	Date: 3/19/2018
Subject: Re: Message For Chuck Kinzer

Attachments :

I’ll try and take some fresh pictures so you have some choices, and without dust on photo backdrop and such.

Also, a nicely painted one in Union Pacific just sold on eBay. Go to the “advanced search” of ebay, check “Completed listings”, and search for eBay 352303598176.

Perhaps that person would let you use some of the those photos. Because I’m not sure if its proper to just grab them (although I know many people do.)

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 1:35 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Message For Chuck Kinzer

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26828	From: trainliker	Date: 3/21/2018
Subject: Re: Message For Chuck Kinzer

Attachments :

Brad:

Yesterday, I sent some photos and a follow up email to the email address you provided below. But have not received a response. So I’m back to “on group”. Did you get the photos?

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 1:35 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Message For Chuck Kinzer

Brad Smith

Posted by: corlissbs@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26829	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 3/30/2018
Subject: Mantus/TYCO??

I was just looking at a couple of Matua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26830	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/30/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Bob,

With Tyco buying Mantua then Mantua buying Tyco and going a few more rounds, it's hard to keep up with them. As the designs and tooling kept going back and forth and being retained in the end, the products of each company aren't far different from each other. Except for the early Reading brass Mantua produced, most if not all their later production is generic, although it can be detailed to suit your needs. Regardless of them not having any specific prototype, you can depend on their mechanisms to run not only like the tanks you mention, but also like the Eveready Battery Rabbit. They just keep on runnin'. Probably one of the best machined mechanisms around for the price and they weren't at all expensive for what you got for your money.

Ray

In a message dated 3/30/2018 5:59:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I was just looking at a couple of Mantua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26831	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/31/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Attachments :

Bob,

It gets more involved than that. In the late1940’s, Mantua, owned by the Tyler family, started producing ready-to-run versions of their kits. No difference except they were assembled and were called Tyco. This continued for some time until the name for all became Tyco. But again the product was the same. The only substantive change came when the Mikado and Pacific models stopped using the separate worm housing and used a smaller motor with the worm on the motor shaft. They also used plastic cabs and tender bodies at the same time. This occurred under the Mantua era Although many of us geezer tend to extol the great virtues of the early drive, the locos were still built like a Mack truck.

Somewhere along the line the Tyler’s sold the business to (can’t recall offhand and don’t have time to look it up) and that MAY be when everything became Tyco. And, overtime as Tyco switched owners, some cheapening of the product did occur, such as eliminating the brass bearings for steam locos driver axles. And the rugged, quiet, smooth running diesel power truck was cheapened, first a bit and then replaced with a crap unit. Eventually John Tyler repurchased the Manta line but the Tyco brand continued on, becoming a more toy like, train set producer. There were 0-4-0 and 0-6-0’s with a combined main and side rod set up much like the 0-27 style Marx locos.

When Mantua became Mantua again, over time they eliminated many of the weak points from Tyco, including putting a real mechanism under the Tyco Consolidation superstructure, re-introducing the early worm drive under the name “Power Drive” and other stuff.

But for practical purposes, much of the Tyco stuff out there is the same as Mantua. The only caution I have is diesels. The only diesel Mantua produced was the Shark nose. The F units and others were all Tyco. If looking at any Mantua diesel, always look at the power truck. If you can see open spur gears at one side, don’t buy it.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 10:16 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Bob,

Ray

In a message dated 3/30/2018 5:59:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I was just looking at a couple of Mantua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26832	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

John,

While I definitely favor the enclosed gear box to the worm with the open gear on the axle which the bottom plate leaves exposed. Not for that reason of course, but because the gear box was a substantially better drive. This is not to say that the later drive was poor, as it ran extremely well too. I believe the ratio of the enclosed gear box allows for slower, smooth speeds, however.

What I'd like to point out though, is that the metal cab and front end/pilot casting (and metal tender) did not stop with the discontinuing of the gear box. I have several models that are still all metal while having the newer mechanism, after the gear box was dropped.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 3/31/2018 10:32:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Bob,

It gets more involved than that. In the late1940’s, Mantua, owned by the Tyler family, started producing ready-to-run versions of their kits. No difference except they were assembled and were called Tyco. This continued for some time until the name for all became Tyco. But again the product was the same. The only substantive change came when the Mikado and Pacific models stopped using the separate worm housing and used a smaller motor with the worm on the motor shaft. They also used plastic cabs and tender bodies at the same time. This occurred under the Mantua era Although many of us geezer tend to extol the great virtues of the early drive, the locos were still built like a Mack truck.

Somewhere along the line the Tyler’s sold the business to (can’t recall offhand and don’t have time to look it up) and that MAY be when everything became Tyco. And, overtime as Tyco switched owners, some cheapening of the product did occur, such as eliminating the brass bearings for steam locos driver axles. And the rugged, quiet, smooth running diesel power truck was cheapened, first a bit and then replaced with a crap unit. Eventually John Tyler repurchased the Manta line but the Tyco brand continued on, becoming a more toy like, train set producer. There were 0-4-0 and 0-6-0’s with a combined main and side rod set up much like the 0-27 style Marx locos.

When Mantua became Mantua again, over time they eliminated many of the weak points from Tyco, including putting a real mechanism under the Tyco Consolidation superstructure, re-introducing the early worm drive under the name “Power Drive” and other stuff.

But for practical purposes, much of the Tyco stuff out there is the same as Mantua. The only caution I have is diesels. The only diesel Mantua produced was the Shark nose. The F units and others were all Tyco. If looking at any Mantua diesel, always look at the power truck. If you can see open spur gears at one side, don’t buy it.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 10:16 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Bob,

With Tyco buying Mantua then Mantua buying Tyco and going a few more rounds, it's hard to keep up with them. As the designs and tooling kept going back and forth and being retained in the end, the products of each company aren't far different from each other. Except for the early Reading brass Mantua produced, most if not all their later production is generic, although it can be detailed to suit your needs. Regardless of them not having any specific prototype, you can depend on their mechanisms to run not only like the tanks you mention, but also like the Eveready Battery Rabbit. They just keep on runnin'. Probably one of the best machined mechanisms around for the price and they weren't at all expensive for what you got for your money.

Ray

In a message dated 3/30/2018 5:59:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I was just looking at a couple of Mantua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26833	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/31/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26834	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/31/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Attachments :

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest.

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26835	From: david vartanoff	Date: 3/31/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3970 Mantua-Tyco

I would add two points. First as to prototype, the Pacific is basically a B&O P-7c as in the modernized w/feedwater heater, air pumps on the pilot and some boxpok drivers. Rivet counters among the B&O community have peened several articles in the model magazines about super detailing/correcting the engine, but out of the box it is a legit 1950 grade model. However, there is, I believe, a major quality difference between the early versions w/semi enclosed gearbox and large motor via coupling and the later smaller motor w/worm on shaft. The former enables (perhaps heresy, perhaps not) installation of a modern much smoother motor.

My tuppence

On 03/31/2018 11:44 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators

Vintage HO Operators Group

2 Messages

Digest #3970

1a

Mantus/TYCO?? by "Bob Macklin" k5myj

1b

Re: Mantus/TYCO?? by

Messages

1a

Mantus/TYCO??

Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:58 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Bob Macklin" k5myj

I was just looking at a couple of Matua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^

1b

Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:16 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

Bob,

_With_ (mailto:W@ith) Tyco buying Mantua then Mantua buying Tyco and
going a few more rounds, it's hard to keep up with them. As the designs and
tooling kept going back and forth and being retained in the end, the products
of each company aren't far different from each other. Except for the
early Reading brass Mantua produced, most if not all their later production is
generic, although it can be detailed to suit your needs. Regardless of
them not having any specific prototype, you can depend on their mechanisms to
run not only like the tanks you mention, but also like the Eveready Battery
Rabbit. They just keep on runnin'. Probably one of the best machined
mechanisms around for the price and they weren't at all expensive for what you
got for your money.

Ray

In a message dated 3/30/2018 5:59:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I was just looking at a couple of Mantua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the
Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these
boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any
difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26836	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/31/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3970 Mantua-Tyco

The latter does too. I’ve put Sagami motors on them by making a motor pad from epoxy putty.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Mar 31, 2018, at 2:41 PM, david vartanoff iskandr@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I would add two points. First as to prototype, the Pacific is basically a B&O P-7c as in the modernized w/feedwater heater, air pumps on the pilot and some boxpok drivers. Rivet counters among the B&O community have peened several articles in the model magazines about super detailing/correcting the engine, but out of the box it is a legit 1950 grade model. However, there is, I believe, a major quality difference between the early versions w/semi enclosed gearbox and large motor via coupling and the later smaller motor w/worm on shaft. The former enables (perhaps heresy, perhaps not) installation of a modern much smoother motor.

My tuppence

On 03/31/2018 11:44 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators

Vintage HO Operators Group

2 Messages

Digest #3970

1a

Mantus/TYCO?? by "Bob Macklin" k5myj

1b

Re: Mantus/TYCO?? by

Messages

1a

Mantus/TYCO??

Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:58 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Bob Macklin" k5myj

I was just looking at a couple of Matua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^

1b

Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:16 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

Bob,

_With_ (mailto:W@ith) Tyco buying Mantua then Mantua buying Tyco and
going a few more rounds, it's hard to keep up with them. As the designs and
tooling kept going back and forth and being retained in the end, the products
of each company aren't far different from each other. Except for the
early Reading brass Mantua produced, most if not all their later production is
generic, although it can be detailed to suit your needs. Regardless of
them not having any specific prototype, you can depend on their mechanisms to
run not only like the tanks you mention, but also like the Eveready Battery
Rabbit. They just keep on runnin'. Probably one of the best machined
mechanisms around for the price and they weren't at all expensive for what you
got for your money.

Ray

In a message dated 3/30/2018 5:59:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I was just looking at a couple of Mantua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the
Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these
boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any
difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa

Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26837	From: Corlissbs	Date: 3/31/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,
I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.
I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.
I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.
I managed to snag a couple doing that.
I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.
I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.
I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.
When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.
I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….
I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..
I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”
John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26838	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/31/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3970 Mantua-Tyco

Attachments :

Vintage HO Operators

David,

You are correct that the early version, or the very late versions with the enclosed worm are better than the later type. They are also geared better.

I have a few Mikes and maybe three Pacific’s, all with the good drive. Well, I do have a later Mikado that I purchased as the seller had a lot of well done detailing on it. If I were to use it as a runner, I’d switch mechanisms.

A couple of the Pacific’s are the later Power Drive, one with a can motor. And I think the latest one has the worm gear enclosed also. Yes, some good drives have come out of China. Too bad a lot of them are not at all sturdy nowadays. The China made Mantua are better as they were based on the original Mantua’s.

Yep, it is a B&O P-7c. and, as you said, decently detailed for the time. The only obvious difference is the cab.

That all said, the later, smaller motor with open worm drives still seemed to be virtually indestructible. Not a real engineering gem but equal to or better than many of its diecast competitors, except some Bowers. Now I know the “Super” Varney’s were very good drives but they were not available for all that long. The “Economy” series, along with the Lil Joe and the later 4-6-0’s and 2-8-0’s were pretty run of the mill.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 2:42 PM
To: No Reply; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Digest Number 3970 Mantua-Tyco

My tuppence

On 03/31/2018 11:44 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Vintage HO Operators Group
2 Messages
Digest #3970
1a
Mantus/TYCO?? by "Bob Macklin" k5myj
1b
Re: Mantus/TYCO?? by
Messages
1a
Mantus/TYCO??
Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:58 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Bob Macklin" k5myj
I was just looking at a couple of Matua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^
1b
Re: Mantus/TYCO??
Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:16 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

Bob,

_With_ (mailto:W@ith) Tyco buying Mantua then Mantua buying Tyco and
going a few more rounds, it's hard to keep up with them. As the designs and
tooling kept going back and forth and being retained in the end, the products
of each company aren't far different from each other. Except for the
early Reading brass Mantua produced, most if not all their later production is
generic, although it can be detailed to suit your needs. Regardless of
them not having any specific prototype, you can depend on their mechanisms to
run not only like the tanks you mention, but also like the Eveready Battery
Rabbit. They just keep on runnin'. Probably one of the best machined
mechanisms around for the price and they weren't at all expensive for what you
got for your money.

Ray

In a message dated 3/30/2018 5:59:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I was just looking at a couple of Mantua/TYCO loco kits.

One is a Mantua in the Red/Yellow box. The other is a TYCO in the
Red/White box.

Is there really a difference between the the quality of kits in these
boxes?

I have built several of these in the past and never noticed any
difference. Both seemed to be built like tanks.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) . Top ^
Visit Your Group
• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26839	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 3/31/2018
Subject: TEST??

Sorry, I am having a problem with Yahoo?

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26840	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/1/2018
Subject: Re: TEST??

Bob,

If you need to know if your test message has gone out to the group, in addition to returning to your inbox as a group message, please know that I received it just fine.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 3/31/2018 10:48:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Sorry, I am having a problem with Yahoo?

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26841	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 4/1/2018
Subject: Re: TEST??

You'tr having trouble with GOOGLE? Why should you be different than everybody else?
--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 3/31/18, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] TEST??
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, March 31, 2018, 9:48 PM

Sorry, I am having a problem with
Yahoo?

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259 --
#yiv2098631259ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mkp #yiv2098631259hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mkp #yiv2098631259ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mkp .yiv2098631259ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mkp .yiv2098631259ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mkp .yiv2098631259ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2098631259ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2098631259ygrp-lc #yiv2098631259hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2098631259ygrp-lc .yiv2098631259ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259activity span
.yiv2098631259underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2098631259 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2098631259 dd.yiv2098631259last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2098631259 dd.yiv2098631259last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2098631259 dd.yiv2098631259last p
span.yiv2098631259yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv2098631259 div.yiv2098631259attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2098631259 div.yiv2098631259attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv2098631259 div.yiv2098631259file-title a, #yiv2098631259
div.yiv2098631259file-title a:active, #yiv2098631259
div.yiv2098631259file-title a:hover, #yiv2098631259
div.yiv2098631259file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2098631259 div.yiv2098631259photo-title a,
#yiv2098631259 div.yiv2098631259photo-title a:active,
#yiv2098631259 div.yiv2098631259photo-title a:hover,
#yiv2098631259 div.yiv2098631259photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2098631259 div#yiv2098631259ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv2098631259ygrp-msg p a span.yiv2098631259yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv2098631259 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv2098631259 .yiv2098631259replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv2098631259 input, #yiv2098631259 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv2098631259
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-mlmsg #yiv2098631259logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-msg
p#yiv2098631259attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-reco
#yiv2098631259reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-sponsor #yiv2098631259ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-sponsor #yiv2098631259ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-sponsor #yiv2098631259ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv2098631259 #yiv2098631259ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv2098631259

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26842	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 4/1/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26843	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/1/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26844	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 4/1/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Ray,

On older units with poor gearing I used to install NWSL delrin gearboxes.

Thinking about the Varney F units it seems to me a B unit could have two power trucks installed.

Real switchers were geared for slow speed operation in yards. The next step is something like a GP-7.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 12:14 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26845	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/1/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Attachments :

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.

I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----
From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith
Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,
I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.
I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.
I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.
I managed to snag a couple doing that.
I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.
I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.
I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.
When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.
I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….
I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..
I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”
John Hagen
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.
Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26846	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 4/1/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

I purchased a Varney 8 wheel drive cast metal F3 that the previous owner had bought and installed a drive truck under the front and connected it to the rear truck with a Varney drive shaft. It was powered by a DC60 and ran like a fine watch on my 3.5 x 6 layout... That was in 19559. Then I traded it for a Mantua Mike mechanism to power a Hobbyline 2-8-4. The Varney F3 was purchased as a powered A & dummy B kit

Happy railroading...

Don Staton in VA

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.

On 4/1/2018 11:11 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote:

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.

I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26847	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 4/1/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO?? Mike to Hobbyline?

I've enjoyed this thread. Say, .... how did the conversion work out when you put the Mantua Mike mechanism into the Hobbyline Berkshire? I've got that 2-8-4, but never thought about putting Mantua under it.
Dennis

On 4/1/2018 9:28 PM, 'Donald R. Staton' chpln1@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I purchased a Varney 8 wheel drive cast metal F3 that the previous owner had bought and installed a drive truck under the front and connected it to the rear truck with a Varney drive shaft. It was powered by a DC60 and ran like a fine watch on my 3.5 x 6 layout... That was in 19559. Then I traded it for a Mantua Mike mechanism to power a Hobbyline 2-8-4. The Varney F3 was purchased as a powered A & dummy B kit

Happy railroading...

Don Staton in VA

++

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26848	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 4/2/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO?? Mike to Hobbyline?

The conversion worked great. I have completed two and plan to do more. I also used the plastic berk boilers and cylinders to make several hudsons similar to a C&O 4-6-4 by using several different 4-6-2 mechanisms including Mantua. I also built a C&O J3 4-8-4 of the early 600 series and plan to go for a 2-10-4 as well. The boilers have to be spliced to get the longer boiler locomotives but that plastic is very easy to work with, it just takes time, patience, careful planning and cutting and a good plastic solvent type glue. I used to use Revell tube glue but have not found a suitable substitute as my supply was used up. I leave the boilers split along the running board for ease of maintenance for motors and wiring.

Happy railroading...

Don Staton in VA.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 4/2/2018 1:02 AM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I've enjoyed this thread. Say, .... how did the conversion work out when you put the Mantua Mike mechanism into the Hobbyline Berkshire? I've got that 2-8-4, but never thought about putting Mantua under it.
Dennis

On 4/1/2018 9:28 PM, 'Donald R. Staton' chpln1@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I purchased a Varney 8 wheel drive cast metal F3 that the previous owner had bought and installed a drive truck under the front and connected it to the rear truck with a Varney drive shaft. It was powered by a DC60 and ran like a fine watch on my 3.5 x 6 layout... That was in 19559. Then I traded it for a Mantua Mike mechanism to power a Hobbyline 2-8-4. The Varney F3 was purchased as a powered A & dummy B kit

Happy railroading...

Don Staton in VA

++

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26849	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/2/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

John,

Yes, it's understood that the Varney Brute used the Pittman DC-71 motor, but before Varney developed the Brute, when only one truck was powered, the Pittman DC-60 was standard with these F-3's, just as you state, and some modelers would swap out the DC-60 for the DC-71 -- giving their units more power to the single power truck that was also standard before the Brute was offered. I'm not at all sure what you mean by your saying "They were entirely different drives," unless I'm not completely understanding you (in which case, please excuse me), but while the spring-belt/3-position-pulley arrangement was first used -- with the DC-60 -- there's no reason to believe a pulley couldn't be mounted on the DC-71 shaft, which it often was. For that matter, gears could and sometimes were used with this conversion rather than pulleys. The very same 3-piece power truck was used on all Varney die-cast F-3's. So, I fail to see what's so different about the drive used on the DC-60 powered diecast F-3 as opposed to the same drive used on the Brute (except for the Brute powering both trucks, which the DC-60 could also power if the modeler so intended). The single piece power truck (if this is what you have in mind) was used with the NW-2 and only much later was it used on some plastic shell F-3's produced by Kramer.

The only reason why I'm trying to determine the ratio of these drives is because Bob mentioned that the can motors seem to run better at a slower speed. I'm sure that some of the open frame motored mechanisms run equally as slow, even though those that have a lower gear ratio can't throttle down as far -- and the V-2 motor, not actually being "open frame," was geared for creeping when throttled down. Yes, easy enough to count the teeth on the driver axle gear, just by marking one and making a complete revolution as you count them. I believe that would be the ratio right there without having to go any further with counting the revolutions of the worm gear, unless I'm mistaken (not at all an impossibility < g >). As I see it, one revolution of the worm gear advances the driver/driven gear one tooth, no matter how many teeth are on the driver gear. With the number of teeth, the worm is matched up with the specific driver gear, with the "worming" being on a certain angle to mate up with the spacing of the teeth to be compatible. In other words, If a driver gear has 37 teeth, I believe this should already be understood as being a 37:1 ratio, with the worm having to turn 37 times to make one complete revolution of the driver gear.

With a 29-tooth driver gear, the worm needs only to turn 29 times to complete one revolution of the driver and its gear. A lower (in ratio numbers) ratio like this will have this locomotive running faster as it doesn't take as many turns of the worm to advance the loco down the track as compared to the higher ration (37 tooth drive gear), which needs to have the worm rotate 37 times to go the same distance; to turn the driver one revolution. I don't think that the worm ever completes only a fraction of a revolution of the driver gear as that's the physics of this set up (to advance one tooth with one worm revolution). Please add to or correct anything you see wrong here, but this is the way I've always understood it.

Not to get too far off the topic of model trains, other gearing, such as in automobiles, most often (perhaps always) have ratios in the fractions, but they're not worm driven. Examples; in the "hot rod Ford" days, the standard rear end ratio was 3.56 turns of the driveshaft to 1 rotation of the rear wheel. Without losing too much gas mileage, some guys changed their rear ends to a 3.90 to 1 ratio which gave them more power on the getaway. Still others changed their rear ends to a 4.11 to one ratio which gave them even more power on the take off, but unless the transmission had the fourth(overdrive) gear, the gas mileage would suffer even more. But these ratios were all due to gear mating to gear in the differential.

Best,

Ray

In a message dated 4/1/2018 11:11:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.

I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26850	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 4/2/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

The 4.11:1 rearend was a truck unit. Made for power and slow driving. This was the preferred gear ratio for drag racing. The hell with fuel consumption.

The 3.54:1was the preferred ratio for speed runs on the lakes.

I WAS THERE! I lived in California in the early 50's.

There were early truck rear ends that did use worm gear drives.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 02, 2018 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

   John,

Yes, it's understood that the Varney Brute used the Pittman DC-71 motor, but before Varney developed the Brute, when only one truck was powered, the Pittman DC-60 was standard with these F-3's, just as you state, and some modelers would swap out the DC-60 for the DC-71 -- giving their units more power to the single power truck that was also standard before the Brute was offered. I'm not at all sure what you mean by your saying "They were entirely different drives," unless I'm not completely understanding you (in which case, please excuse me), but while the spring-belt/3-position-pulley arrangement was first used -- with the DC-60 -- there's no reason to believe a pulley couldn't be mounted on the DC-71 shaft, which it often was. For that matter, gears could and sometimes were used with this conversion rather than pulleys. The very same 3-piece power truck was used on all Varney die-cast F-3's. So, I fail to see what's so different about the drive used on the DC-60 powered diecast F-3 as opposed to the same drive used on the Brute (except for the Brute powering both trucks, which the DC-60 could also power if the modeler so intended). The single piece power truck (if this is what you have in mind) was used with the NW-2 and only much later was it used on some plastic shell F-3's produced by Kramer.

The only reason why I'm trying to determine the ratio of these drives is because Bob mentioned that the can motors seem to run better at a slower speed. I'm sure that some of the open frame motored mechanisms run equally as slow, even though those that have a lower gear ratio can't throttle down as far -- and the V-2 motor, not actually being "open frame," was geared for creeping when throttled down. Yes, easy enough to count the teeth on the driver axle gear, just by marking one and making a complete revolution as you count them. I believe that would be the ratio right there without having to go any further with counting the revolutions of the worm gear, unless I'm mistaken (not at all an impossibility < g >). As I see it, one revolution of the worm gear advances the driver/driven gear one tooth, no matter how many teeth are on the driver gear. With the number of teeth, the worm is matched up with the specific driver gear, with the "worming" being on a certain angle to mate up with the spacing of the teeth to be compatible.   In other words, If a driver gear has 37 teeth, I believe this should already be understood as being a 37:1 ratio, with the worm having to turn 37 times to make one complete revolution of the driver gear.

With a 29-tooth driver gear, the worm needs only to turn 29 times to complete one revolution of the driver and its gear. A lower (in ratio numbers) ratio like this will have this locomotive running faster as it doesn't take as many turns of the worm to advance the loco down the track as compared to the higher ration (37 tooth drive gear), which needs to have the worm rotate 37 times to go the same distance; to turn the driver one revolution. I don't think that the worm ever completes only a fraction of a revolution of the driver gear as that's the physics of this set up (to advance one tooth with one worm revolution). Please add to or correct anything you see wrong here, but this is the way I've always understood it.

Not to get too far off the topic of model trains, other gearing, such as in automobiles, most often (perhaps always) have ratios in the fractions, but they're not worm driven. Examples; in the "hot rod Ford" days, the standard rear end ratio was 3.56 turns of the driveshaft to 1 rotation of the rear wheel. Without losing too much gas mileage, some guys changed their rear ends to a 3.90 to 1 ratio which gave them more power on the getaway. Still others changed their rear ends to a 4.11 to one ratio which gave them even more power on the take off, but unless the transmission had the fourth(overdrive) gear, the gas mileage would suffer even more. But these ratios were all due to gear mating to gear in the differential.

Best,

Ray

In a message dated 4/1/2018 11:11:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.

I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26851	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/2/2018
Subject: Re: O/T; was, Mantuas/TYCO??

Bob,

How do you think I knew about these rear end ratios? I was there TOO! And I "Done That." And I had a 4:11 rear in my Ford too. No one (no one at all) cared about gas mileage back then, when gas was as cheap as 29 cents a gallon. Err, make that 29.9 cents a gallon < g >, or cheaper. They had gas wars back then and one station tried to outbeat the other in seeing how cheap he could sell his gas for just to get a few more customers.

Never heard of worm gear drives in truck transmissions; thanks for telling me. I used to put Lincoln gears in my transmissions and when I couldn't find any, one of the best trannies I could find was the Borg-warner T-10. It was the traction bars in the rear of the car that made it rough on keeping the trans in one piece when the clutch was popped but they could stand up to it..

On the Lakes, you want a high speed rear ratio to get up to top speed. The 4:11 is great for getting off the line, but top end suffers. I think some guys I knew used something like a 3:70 or something, for the best of both worlds.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/2/2018 12:41:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The 4.11:1 rearend was a truck unit. Made for power and slow driving. This was the preferred gear ratio for drag racing. The hell with fuel consumption.

The 3.54:1was the preferred ratio for speed runs on the lakes.

I WAS THERE! I lived in California in the early 50's.

There were early truck rear ends that did use worm gear drives.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 02, 2018 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

   John,

Yes, it's understood that the Varney Brute used the Pittman DC-71 motor, but before Varney developed the Brute, when only one truck was powered, the Pittman DC-60 was standard with these F-3's, just as you state, and some modelers would swap out the DC-60 for the DC-71 -- giving their units more power to the single power truck that was also standard before the Brute was offered. I'm not at all sure what you mean by your saying "They were entirely different drives," unless I'm not completely understanding you (in which case, please excuse me), but while the spring-belt/3-position-pulley arrangement was first used -- with the DC-60 -- there's no reason to believe a pulley couldn't be mounted on the DC-71 shaft, which it often was. For that matter, gears could and sometimes were used with this conversion rather than pulleys. The very same 3-piece power truck was used on all Varney die-cast F-3's. So, I fail to see what's so different about the drive used on the DC-60 powered diecast F-3 as opposed to the same drive used on the Brute (except for the Brute powering both trucks, which the DC-60 could also power if the modeler so intended). The single piece power truck (if this is what you have in mind) was used with the NW-2 and only much later was it used on some plastic shell F-3's produced by Kramer.

The only reason why I'm trying to determine the ratio of these drives is because Bob mentioned that the can motors seem to run better at a slower speed. I'm sure that some of the open frame motored mechanisms run equally as slow, even though those that have a lower gear ratio can't throttle down as far -- and the V-2 motor, not actually being "open frame," was geared for creeping when throttled down. Yes, easy enough to count the teeth on the driver axle gear, just by marking one and making a complete revolution as you count them. I believe that would be the ratio right there without having to go any further with counting the revolutions of the worm gear, unless I'm mistaken (not at all an impossibility < g >). As I see it, one revolution of the worm gear advances the driver/driven gear one tooth, no matter how many teeth are on the driver gear. With the number of teeth, the worm is matched up with the specific driver gear, with the "worming" being on a certain angle to mate up with the spacing of the teeth to be compatible.   In other words, If a driver gear has 37 teeth, I believe this should already be understood as being a 37:1 ratio, with the worm having to turn 37 times to make one complete revolution of the driver gear.

With a 29-tooth driver gear, the worm needs only to turn 29 times to complete one revolution of the driver and its gear. A lower (in ratio numbers) ratio like this will have this locomotive running faster as it doesn't take as many turns of the worm to advance the loco down the track as compared to the higher ration (37 tooth drive gear), which needs to have the worm rotate 37 times to go the same distance; to turn the driver one revolution. I don't think that the worm ever completes only a fraction of a revolution of the driver gear as that's the physics of this set up (to advance one tooth with one worm revolution). Please add to or correct anything you see wrong here, but this is the way I've always understood it.

Not to get too far off the topic of model trains, other gearing, such as in automobiles, most often (perhaps always) have ratios in the fractions, but they're not worm driven. Examples; in the "hot rod Ford" days, the standard rear end ratio was 3.56 turns of the driveshaft to 1 rotation of the rear wheel. Without losing too much gas mileage, some guys changed their rear ends to a 3.90 to 1 ratio which gave them more power on the getaway. Still others changed their rear ends to a 4.11 to one ratio which gave them even more power on the take off, but unless the transmission had the fourth(overdrive) gear, the gas mileage would suffer even more. But these ratios were all due to gear mating to gear in the differential.

Best,

Ray

In a message dated 4/1/2018 11:11:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.

I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26852	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/2/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Attachments :

Ray,

The 1948 catalog on hoseeker shows the DC60, one piece drive. There is no 1949 catalog there. The 1950 catalog shows a 4 unit set photo and text with the Brute F3 for $28.95. The text also shows A or B unit kits for $20.95. The 1950 brochure shows the same photo and text for the Brute but the A or B kits for $19.75, which I’ve seen in later catalogs for the DC60 w/one piece gear box drive.

Scrolling down the individual locomotive data, the F3 has several different models listed. But, to keep things confined to one year, the 1951 2060-K has three pages; 1-a comprehensive F3 parts list containing parts for both the DC71 three piece gear box drive and the DC60 one piece gear box drive. Page 2 is an exploded view of the Brute with DC71 drive and page 3 shows assembly instruction with illustrations of DC60 with one piece gear box.

Above the 2060-K is a “F3 AB Diesel 1951” with 2 pages, the first being an exploded view of the DC60 one piece gear box drive and the second is the same instruction sheet used in the 2060-K set.

Now I quite certain the Erv had his Brute when I got my Mantua Mikado for Christmas 1949. But, searching Varney 1949 adds in MR Varney’s big F3 power truck announcement was for the V4 power truck. Probably a good runner but there was no way to make it an 8 wheel drive. The frame had to be divided into two non equal parts to make room for long V4 power truck and there was no way to have a drive shaft to the second truck. It could be that we only had the Lindsay NW2 when I got the Mike but I remember waiting to see how well my Mike would pull compared to Erv’s F3. Anyway, both drives were available at the some point. BTW, I do not consider whether they used gears or belts as a factor on the drive types as both had both over time. That was just a variation on the whichever gear boxes were used.

I have about 4 or so diecast and one plastic F3’s in my possession that have the DC60 with one piece gear boxes. Not something subject to memory as the last time I had them on track to test and lube was the Sunday before last. The plastic shell one has plastic spur gears and some plastic in the gear box but is still the same one piece box as used earlier. I know in later times after Gordon sold the business there were different all plastic drives used.

Regards one revolution = one tooth, you may be correct as regards those old Mantua’s but I think it may depend on the pitch of the worm. And, of course there were those weird double cut worms used in some imports the that doesn’t apply here. I have enough of those Mantua’s sitting around here to check it out but not the time until next week.

Done a tad of hot rodding myself when I wore a younger mans clothes. Many early differentials used worm drive, particularly on trucks. And the heavier duty the truck, the more likely they were to use worm drive differentials. This was industry wide. With gear ratio’s running well into the 6’s or even higher it was much easier to do reliable drive using a worm using the technology and materials of the day.

I am well familiar with gear ratio’s in automobiles and how the ratio affects speed, acceleration and mileage. And N0ISE! I drove a friend’s 1956 110 2 dr Chevrolet on a weekend trip to Appleton (just over 100 miles one way) with a rather healthy 327 using headers and side exhaust running 456 gears. The drone was something to behold. Now, when I put a 456 Dana rear axle into my 1963 Dodge 400 (model not motor designation) 2 dr hdtp with a 383 three speed originally with an 8-3/4 with 323 gears rear end, the same power train used many state police departments back then including Wisconsin, the milder cam, cast iron exhaust manifolds and factory rear exhaust, made the noise level much lower. Needless to say I could time the trip in either car by the constant downward movement of the gas gauge!

This is a very interesting thread but I will be gone until next Monday, which will be spent on catching up. But you have piqued my interest and I will have to do some personal research, for my own satisfaction if nothing else.

Thanks,

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2018 11:05 AM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John,

Yes, it's understood that the Varney Brute used the Pittman DC-71 motor, but before Varney developed the Brute, when only one truck was powered, the Pittman DC-60 was standard with these F-3's, just as you state, and some modelers would swap out the DC-60 for the DC-71 -- giving their units more power to the single power truck that was also standard before the Brute was offered. I'm not at all sure what you mean by your saying "They were entirely different drives," unless I'm not completely understanding you (in which case, please excuse me), but while the spring-belt/3-position-pulley arrangement was first used -- with the DC-60 -- there's no reason to believe a pulley couldn't be mounted on the DC-71 shaft, which it often was. For that matter, gears could and sometimes were used with this conversion rather than pulleys. The very same 3-piece power truck was used on all Varney die-cast F-3's. So, I fail to see what's so different about the drive used on the DC-60 powered diecast F-3 as opposed to the same drive used on the Brute (except for the Brute powering both trucks, which the DC-60 could also power if the modeler so intended). The single piece power truck (if this is what you have in mind) was used with the NW-2 and only much later was it used on some plastic shell F-3's produced by Kramer.

The only reason why I'm trying to determine the ratio of these drives is because Bob mentioned that the can motors seem to run better at a slower speed. I'm sure that some of the open frame motored mechanisms run equally as slow, even though those that have a lower gear ratio can't throttle down as far -- and the V-2 motor, not actually being "open frame," was geared for creeping when throttled down. Yes, easy enough to count the teeth on the driver axle gear, just by marking one and making a complete revolution as you count them. I believe that would be the ratio right there without having to go any further with counting the revolutions of the worm gear, unless I'm mistaken (not at all an impossibility < g >). As I see it, one revolution of the worm gear advances the driver/driven gear one tooth, no matter how many teeth are on the driver gear. With the number of teeth, the worm is matched up with the specific driver gear, with the "worming" being on a certain angle to mate up with the spacing of the teeth to be compatible. In other words, If a driver gear has 37 teeth, I believe this should already be understood as being a 37:1 ratio, with the worm having to turn 37 times to make one complete revolution of the driver gear.

With a 29-tooth driver gear, the worm needs only to turn 29 times to complete one revolution of the driver and its gear. A lower (in ratio numbers) ratio like this will have this locomotive running faster as it doesn't take as many turns of the worm to advance the loco down the track as compared to the higher ration (37 tooth drive gear), which needs to have the worm rotate 37 times to go the same distance; to turn the driver one revolution. I don't think that the worm ever completes only a fraction of a revolution of the driver gear as that's the physics of this set up (to advance one tooth with one worm revolution). Please add to or correct anything you see wrong here, but this is the way I've always understood it.

Not to get too far off the topic of model trains, other gearing, such as in automobiles, most often (perhaps always) have ratios in the fractions, but they're not worm driven. Examples; in the "hot rod Ford" days, the standard rear end ratio was 3.56 turns of the driveshaft to 1 rotation of the rear wheel. Without losing too much gas mileage, some guys changed their rear ends to a 3.90 to 1 ratio which gave them more power on the getaway. Still others changed their rear ends to a 4.11 to one ratio which gave them even more power on the take off, but unless the transmission had the fourth(overdrive) gear, the gas mileage would suffer even more. But these ratios were all due to gear mating to gear in the differential.

Best,

Ray

In a message dated 4/1/2018 11:11:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.
I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.
John Hagen
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.
Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.
Ray Wetzel
In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.
I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.
I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.
Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
Original Message -----
From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.
Brad Smith
Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,
I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.
I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.
I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.
I managed to snag a couple doing that.
I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme.
I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.
I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.
When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.
I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….
I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..
I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”
John Hagen
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.
Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26853	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/3/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

John,

Thanks very much for responding to my previous message and allowing me to understand your stance in doing so. To begin with, you don't need the Varney 1949 catalog to review this issue as that year's catalog is exactly the same where it pertains to the diecast F-3 that's being offered; same Pittman DC-60 motor used with it and same power truck, with the 3 step pulley arrangement. Before going any further, and getting right to your reference of a "one piece drive," here I'm assuming that you mean the one piece gearbox as opposed to the three piece gearbox. If I'm wrong on that assumption, please let me know, but this is how I'm reading it to mean.

Getting back to the Varney 1948 catalog, of which I have several, I'm assuming you went right to the section in the HOSeeker listing under that catalog marked "F-3," which brings you to pages 26 (page is left unnumbered) and the adjacent Page 27 (so marked). While the three step pulley is mentioned on Page 26, nothing in that text refers to the motor or the power truck. On Page 27, section # 1, the Power Truck and motor are briefly described along with the motor -- being a Pittman 5-pole DC-60. As you've seen, a photo of this assembly accompanies the description. To the right, under section # 5, Diesel Locomotive Kits & Parts, the Power Truck is listed having two purchase options -- the Part No. 1714 Power Truck (Kit) which includes the 5-Pole Motor, the Diesel F-3 truck sideframes (listed as "side), and a trailing truck and 3 step Pulley -- and the Part No. 1718 Power Truck (Unit -- as being assembled {not a kit]) which includes the 5-Pole Motor and 3 step Pulley, less the truck sideframes and trailing truck.

Other than this, there is nothing suggesting Varney offering the shorter one-piece gear box/drive truck. So . . . if this is where you're referring to the use of the one piece drive -- IF you're referring to the one piece gearbox -- then I still fail to see what you're pertaining to as there's absolutely nothing in this catalog on any page that refers to the one piece drive (one piece gearbox), but if this is not where you're going then I may be missing your point entirely and may be on the wrong "track," which I would regret.

Only in presuming this may be what you have in mind, I'd like to continue in drawing your attention to the photo accompanying the brief Power Truck description in the 1948 catalog (on Page 27) in section # 1, and specifically to the power truck gearbox itself which is seen as having somewhat rounded corners to the casting at the point of where the sides and ends meet the top. As you're most likely aware of what the one piece gearbox casting looks like, I'm sure you must be aware that while the one piece gearbox casting is rounded at the end corners although the sides and ends meet the top at a sharp 90 o angle (they're no rounded at all). What we're seeing in this photo is the three piece power truck drive gearbox casting (part #'s 1653, 1654 and 1655), with truck sideframe # 1945. This was the only drive/power truck that was used on all of the Varney diecast F-3's. The one piece drive power truck gearbox (part # 2209A) wasn't developed until 1950, to be used with the then new (in 1950) Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K, and then, that locomotive wasn't offered until the Fall of 1950 -- found only in Fall 1950 3rd and 4th Edition catalogs and not in the earlier 1950 catalogs. These one piece drives, to be used on the NW-2 Diesel Switchers were shorter than the three piece drives used on the Diesel F-3's and had shorter truck sideframes. They weren't suitable to the F-3.

Yes, I note the 4 unit set photo and text for the Varney Brute F-3 in the Fall 1950 4th Edition catalog that HOSeeker displays, same as I have in my Fall 1950 3rd and 4th Edition catalogs. I also note the same photo and text (with lower prices) foe the Brute in what Larry Stevenson (HOSeeker) describes as a brochure but which is actually the early Varney 1950 catalog, which I also have. While we know the Brute didn't come out until 1950, which I've so stated here in the past, as we're not referring to this model (having the Pittman DC-71 motor) but are instead discussing the earlier F-3 having the DC-60 motor, I don't see your point here and I would appreciate knowing what it is as it's only indirectly related to this discussion. Again, ALL Varney diecast powered F-3 models use the same 3 piece power truck gearbox -- even the ones you're pointing out in the HO Seeker literature as the "Brutes." I'm not at all sure what you mean by seeing the DC-60 w/one piece gear box drive (in Varney diecast F-3's, as we're discussing) in later catalogs, although as I said previously you might expect to see that with Sol Kramer's continued (plastic shell)production of the F-3's.

Getting right to your second paragraph, I don't know what you're referring to, to be "scrolling down the individual locomotive data," with the F-3 having several different models listed. Certainly, there is no such page in what Larry describes as the Varney 1950 Brochure (Varney early -- April, I believe -- 1950 Catalog), as the only F-3 to appear in this catalog is with the listing of all the steam locomotives on the page headed with "LOCO'S (for fun and relaxation) - Exiting New Locos 1950." Keeping in line with you in going to the year 1951, I see only the 1,001 Genuine HO Loco & Car Parts booklet under HO Seeker, which Larry describes as a catalog. There, I see nothing at all that is referred to as the "2060-K" which you mention, but I do understand this is the Varney kit number for (only) the Brute F-3A kit, although I do find in the Parts Lists (1, 2 & 3) at the rear, This kit number is included under Varney HO Locomotives, Tenders, Power Trucks, and Motors. The 2060-K is listed as, "Twin-Drive Diesel Kit, A Unit Powered," in HO Seeker's Parts List 3. I also see the listing there for Part Numbers 1714 and 1718, as Power Truck DC-60 Diesel Sides Trailing Truck and Power Truck, DC-60 less Sides & Trailing Truck, respectively -- which I described in my 2nd paragraph here. The "Diesel" which Varney is referring to here is the same Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K -- not the F-3 2060K.

As HO Seeker -- and you -- are both not referring to these pages in the same way as they're actually numbered, nor are you using HO Seeker's system, I'm having some difficulty in following all of this, but so far I think I'm keeping up. Your "Page 2" of the 1951 loco & parts listing/catalog is apparently the page HO Seekers has as F-3AB Diesel 2 and your "Page 3" of this same publication is apparently what HO Seeker is calling 2230-K Yard Switcher 2 -- or do you mean HO Seeker's 2230-K Yard Switcher 1?. These (except "Yard Switcher 1") are solid black pages with white print and illustrations. Every page is numbered at the bottom with the actual publication's page number, with your Page 2 being the publication's Page 9 and your Page 3 being the publications Page 10 or 11. For better communication, I'd suggest using these page numbers in Varney's catalogs.

Now, getting back to what I'm guessing to be meaning "Page 1a" by you -- appearing to be HO Seeker's Page F-3AB Diesel 1, and the publication's page 8 -- agreed, this shows the parts listing of the F-3 Brute including the DC-71 motor and the 3-piece gear box catalog numbers, each listed separately. Your Page 2 of the 1951 "catalog," having the exploded view of the F-3 Brute with the DC-71 drive with the 3-piece gear box; each piece shown separately. Your Page 3, either HO Seeker 2230-K Yard Switcher 1 or 2230-K Yard Switcher 2, definitely shows the DC-60 motor as mounted on the one piece 2209A gear box -- but, we're not looking at a Varney F-3 Diesel, but instead, the Varney NW-2 Diesel Switcher.

As to your third paragraph, while I'm still not finding your reference of "2060-K" associated with being an F3 AB Diesel (In 1951 -- still assuming you're using HO Seeker's literature), agreed, the 2060-K is a Varney F-3 and more specifically this catalog number was for only describing the F-3 Brute. With HO Seeker, the two pages on the F3 AB Diesel, with parts listing and exploded view are found (only) on HO Seeker F3AB Diesel 1 (page 8 in the publication) and on HO Seeker F3AB Diesel 2 (page 9 in the publication). Nothing else is shown nor described in whole nor in part in the Varney 1951 1,001 Genuine HO Loco & Car Parts by Varney (described by HO Seeker as the Varney 1951 Catalog), except for the small photo and description/pricing of the "Brute" Diesel as "Varney's Famous Diesel Locomotives" on HO Seekers "Locomotive" page (page 4 of the publication) and on HO Seeker page "Parts List 3," your apparent Page 1-a (Page 35 in the publication), where the parts are listed by catalog numbers and priced. You'll please note, that the two pages on the F3AB Diesel, including the exploded view show only the DC-71 motor with the three-piece gear box. The exploded view of the DC-60 motor and one piece gear box drive will only be found on the Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K page, not on any other page except for the DC-60 motor being found on the "Casey Jones" page and also as being used with the Dockside "Li'l Joe" Switcher. The "Old Lady" Consolidation was not yet produced in 1951.

Please go back to HO Seeker where you'll find the DC-60 and one-piece gear box on the same page (only) with the Varney Yard Diesel No.2230-K.

Not quite sure who you mean by "Erv," except possibly Irv Athearn,but Gordon Varney did not produce his F-3 Brute until the Fall of 1951 (not in 1949, as you might have hoped), as we've already discussed. On the two different drives -- belt vs gears -- I had no preference as each had it's advantages, with the belt drive being less noisy -- and the speed was adjustable with a change in the belts' position. As you have a Varney plastic F3 with the EDC60 and one piece gear box, this goes along with what I said abot Sol Kramer leter producing his F-3's with these features, although with the shorter wheelbase, its of course incorrect for an F-3 -- besides not having the correct truck sideframes for the EMD F-3. This still has litte to do with the diecast F-3's we were discussing. Any diecast, Varney F-3's having a DC-60 motor and one-piece gear box must have been changed out by a previous modeler as Gordon Varney never produced them that way. There's the chance the Sol Kramer used this mechanism on some F-3's when he received the inventory from Gordon Varney, but I don't believe they were ever cataloged that way (if he even did that), and I don't see HO Seeker as referring to them; I don't have all of Sol Kramer's Varney catalogs, but have every one of Gordon Varney's catalogs.

More later,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/2/2018 5:33:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

The 1948 catalog on hoseeker shows the DC60, one piece drive. There is no 1949 catalog there. The 1950 catalog shows a 4 unit set photo and text with the Brute F3 for $28.95. The text also shows A or B unit kits for $20.95. The 1950 brochure shows the same photo and text for the Brute but the A or B kits for $19.75, which I’ve seen in later catalogs for the DC60 w/one piece gear box drive.

Scrolling down the individual locomotive data, the F3 has several different models listed. But, to keep things confined to one year, the 1951 2060-K has three pages; 1-a comprehensive F3 parts list containing parts for both the DC71 three piece gear box drive and the DC60 one piece gear box drive. Page 2 is an exploded view of the Brute with DC71 drive and page 3 shows assembly instruction with illustrations of DC60 with one piece gear box.

Above the 2060-K is a “F3 AB Diesel 1951” with 2 pages, the first being an exploded view of the DC60 one piece gear box drive and the second is the same instruction sheet used in the 2060-K set.

Now I quite certain the Erv had his Brute when I got my Mantua Mikado for Christmas 1949. But, searching Varney 1949 adds in MR Varney’s big F3 power truck announcement was for the V4 power truck. Probably a good runner but there was no way to make it an 8 wheel drive. The frame had to be divided into two non equal parts to make room for long V4 power truck and there was no way to have a drive shaft to the second truck. It could be that we only had the Lindsay NW2 when I got the Mike but I remember waiting to see how well my Mike would pull compared to Erv’s F3. Anyway, both drives were available at the some point. BTW, I do not consider whether they used gears or belts as a factor on the drive types as both had both over time. That was just a variation on the whichever gear boxes were used.

I have about 4 or so diecast and one plastic F3’s in my possession that have the DC60 with one piece gear boxes. Not something subject to memory as the last time I had them on track to test and lube was the Sunday before last. The plastic shell one has plastic spur gears and some plastic in the gear box but is still the same one piece box as used earlier. I know in later times after Gordon sold the business there were different all plastic drives used.

Regards one revolution = one tooth, you may be correct as regards those old Mantua’s but I think it may depend on the pitch of the worm. And, of course there were those weird double cut worms used in some imports the that doesn’t apply here. I have enough of those Mantua’s sitting around here to check it out but not the time until next week.

Done a tad of hot rodding myself when I wore a younger mans clothes. Many early differentials used worm drive, particularly on trucks. And the heavier duty the truck, the more likely they were to use worm drive differentials. This was industry wide. With gear ratio’s running well into the 6’s or even higher it was much easier to do reliable drive using a worm using the technology and materials of the day.

I am well familiar with gear ratio’s in automobiles and how the ratio affects speed, acceleration and mileage. And N0ISE! I drove a friend’s 1956 110 2 dr Chevrolet on a weekend trip to Appleton (just over 100 miles one way) with a rather healthy 327 using headers and side exhaust running 456 gears. The drone was something to behold. Now, when I put a 456 Dana rear axle into my 1963 Dodge 400 (model not motor designation) 2 dr hdtp with a 383 three speed originally with an 8-3/4 with 323 gears rear end, the same power train used many state police departments back then including Wisconsin, the milder cam, cast iron exhaust manifolds and factory rear exhaust, made the noise level much lower. Needless to say I could time the trip in either car by the constant downward movement of the gas gauge!

This is a very interesting thread but I will be gone until next Monday, which will be spent on catching up. But you have piqued my interest and I will have to do some personal research, for my own satisfaction if nothing else.

Thanks,

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2018 11:05 AM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

   John,

Yes, it's understood that the Varney Brute used the Pittman DC-71 motor, but before Varney developed the Brute, when only one truck was powered, the Pittman DC-60 was standard with these F-3's, just as you state, and some modelers would swap out the DC-60 for the DC-71 -- giving their units more power to the single power truck that was also standard before the Brute was offered. I'm not at all sure what you mean by your saying "They were entirely different drives," unless I'm not completely understanding you (in which case, please excuse me), but while the spring-belt/3-position-pulley arrangement was first used -- with the DC-60 in the F-3 -- there's no reason to believe a pulley couldn't be mounted on the DC-71 shaft, which it often was. For that matter, gears could and sometimes were used with this conversion rather than pulleys. The very same 3-piece power truck was used on all Varney die-cast F-3's. So, I fail to see what's so different about the drive used on the DC-60 powered diecast F-3 as opposed to the same drive used on the Brute (except for the Brute powering both trucks, which the DC-60 could also power if the modeler so intended). The single piece power truck (if this is what you have in mind) was used with the NW-2 and only much later was it used on some plastic shell F-3's produced by Kramer.

The only reason why I'm trying to determine the ratio of these drives is because Bob mentioned that the can motors seem to run better at a slower speed. I'm sure that some of the open frame motored mechanisms run equally as slow, even though those that have a lower gear ratio can't throttle down as far -- and the V-2 motor, not actually being "open frame," was geared for creeping when throttled down. Yes, easy enough to count the teeth on the driver axle gear, just by marking one and making a complete revolution as you count them. I believe that would be the ratio right there without having to go any further with counting the revolutions of the worm gear, unless I'm mistaken (not at all an impossibility < g >). As I see it, one revolution of the worm gear advances the driver/driven gear one tooth, no matter how many teeth are on the driver gear. With the number of teeth, the worm is matched up with the specific driver gear, with the "worming" being on a certain angle to mate up with the spacing of the teeth to be compatible.   In other words, If a driver gear has 37 teeth, I believe this should already be understood as being a 37:1 ratio, with the worm having to turn 37 times to make one complete revolution of the driver gear.

With a 29-tooth driver gear, the worm needs only to turn 29 times to complete one revolution of the driver and its gear. A lower (in ratio numbers) ratio like this will have this locomotive running faster as it doesn't take as many turns of the worm to advance the loco down the track as compared to the higher ration (37 tooth drive gear), which needs to have the worm rotate 37 times to go the same distance; to turn the driver one revolution. I don't think that the worm ever completes only a fraction of a revolution of the driver gear as that's the physics of this set up (to advance one tooth with one worm revolution). Please add to or correct anything you see wrong here, but this is the way I've always understood it.

Not to get too far off the topic of model trains, other gearing, such as in automobiles, most often (perhaps always) have ratios in the fractions, but they're not worm driven. Examples; in the "hot rod Ford" days, the standard rear end ratio was 3.56 turns of the driveshaft to 1 rotation of the rear wheel. Without losing too much gas mileage, some guys changed their rear ends to a 3.90 to 1 ratio which gave them more power on the getaway. Still others changed their rear ends to a 4.11 to one ratio which gave them even more power on the take off, but unless the transmission had the fourth(overdrive) gear, the gas mileage would suffer even more. But these ratios were all due to gear mating to gear in the differential.

Best,

Ray

In a message dated 4/1/2018 11:11:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.

I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay.. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme..

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26854	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 4/3/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Ray,

I was just looking at some F-3 instructions. I found some that show a one piece power truck similar to the NW-2 power truck.

I have some that show the 3 piece power truck also.

I have saved most of the Varney instructions from HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:24 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John,

Thanks very much for responding to my previous message and allowing me to understand your stance in doing so. To begin with, you don't need the Varney 1949 catalog to review this issue as that year's catalog is exactly the same where it pertains to the diecast F-3 that's being offered; same Pittman DC-60 motor used with it and same power truck, with the 3 step pulley arrangement. Before going any further, and getting right to your reference of a "one piece drive," here I'm assuming that you mean the one piece gearbox as opposed to the three piece gearbox. If I'm wrong on that assumption, please let me know, but this is how I'm reading it to mean.

Getting back to the Varney 1948 catalog, of which I have several, I'm assuming you went right to the section in the HOSeeker listing under that catalog marked "F-3," which brings you to pages 26 (page is left unnumbered) and the adjacent Page 27 (so marked). While the three step pulley is mentioned on Page 26, nothing in that text refers to the motor or the power truck. On Page 27, section # 1, the Power Truck and motor are briefly described along with the motor -- being a Pittman 5-pole DC-60. As you've seen, a photo of this assembly accompanies the description. To the right, under section # 5, Diesel Locomotive Kits & Parts, the Power Truck is listed having two purchase options -- the Part No. 1714 Power Truck (Kit) which includes the 5-Pole Motor, the Diesel F-3 truck sideframes (listed as "side), and a trailing truck and 3 step Pulley -- and the Part No. 1718 Power Truck (Unit -- as being assembled {not a kit]) which includes the 5-Pole Motor and 3 step Pulley, less the truck sideframes and trailing truck.

Other than this, there is nothing suggesting Varney offering the shorter one-piece gear box/drive truck. So . . . if this is where you're referring to the use of the one piece drive -- IF you're referring to the one piece gearbox -- then I still fail to see what you're pertaining to as there's absolutely nothing in this catalog on any page that refers to the one piece drive (one piece gearbox), but if this is not where you're going then I may be missing your point entirely and may be on the wrong "track," which I would regret.

Only in presuming this may be what you have in mind, I'd like to continue in drawing your attention to the photo accompanying the brief Power Truck description in the 1948 catalog (on Page 27) in section # 1, and specifically to the power truck gearbox itself which is seen as having somewhat rounded corners to the casting at the point of where the sides and ends meet the top. As you're most likely aware of what the one piece gearbox casting looks like, I'm sure you must be aware that while the one piece gearbox casting is rounded at the end corners although the sides and ends meet the top at a sharp 90 o angle (they're no rounded at all). What we're seeing in this photo is the three piece power truck drive gearbox casting (part #'s 1653, 1654 and 1655), with truck sideframe # 1945. This was the only drive/power truck that was used on all of the Varney diecast F-3's. The one piece drive power truck gearbox (part # 2209A) wasn't developed until 1950, to be used with the then new (in 1950) Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K, and then, that locomotive wasn't offered until the Fall of 1950 -- found only in Fall 1950 3rd and 4th Edition catalogs and not in the earlier 1950 catalogs. These one piece drives, to be used on the NW-2 Diesel Switchers were shorter than the three piece drives used on the Diesel F-3's and had shorter truck sideframes. They weren't suitable to the F-3.

Yes, I note the 4 unit set photo and text for the Varney Brute F-3 in the Fall 1950 4th Edition catalog that HOSeeker displays, same as I have in my Fall 1950 3rd and 4th Edition catalogs. I also note the same photo and text (with lower prices) foe the Brute in what Larry Stevenson (HOSeeker) describes as a brochure but which is actually the early Varney 1950 catalog, which I also have. While we know the Brute didn't come out until 1950, which I've so stated here in the past, as we're not referring to this model (having the Pittman DC-71 motor) but are instead discussing the earlier F-3 having the DC-60 motor, I don't see your point here and I would appreciate knowing what it is as it's only indirectly related to this discussion. Again, ALL Varney diecast powered F-3 models use the same 3 piece power truck gearbox -- even the ones you're pointing out in the HO Seeker literature as the "Brutes." I'm not at all sure what you mean by seeing the DC-60 w/one piece gear box drive (in Varney diecast F-3's, as we're discussing) in later catalogs, although as I said previously you might expect to see that with Sol Kramer's continued (plastic shell)production of the F-3's.

Getting right to your second paragraph, I don't know what you're referring to, to be "scrolling down the individual locomotive data," with the F-3 having several different models listed. Certainly, there is no such page in what Larry describes as the Varney 1950 Brochure (Varney early -- April, I believe -- 1950 Catalog), as the only F-3 to appear in this catalog is with the listing of all the steam locomotives on the page headed with "LOCO'S (for fun and relaxation) - Exiting New Locos 1950." Keeping in line with you in going to the year 1951, I see only the 1,001 Genuine HO Loco & Car Parts booklet under HO Seeker, which Larry describes as a catalog. There, I see nothing at all that is referred to as the "2060-K" which you mention, but I do understand this is the Varney kit number for (only) the Brute F-3A kit, although I do find in the Parts Lists (1, 2 & 3) at the rear, This kit number is included under Varney HO Locomotives, Tenders, Power Trucks, and Motors. The 2060-K is listed as, "Twin-Drive Diesel Kit, A Unit Powered," in HO Seeker's Parts List 3. I also see the listing there for Part Numbers 1714 and 1718, as Power Truck DC-60 Diesel Sides Trailing Truck and Power Truck, DC-60 less Sides & Trailing Truck, respectively -- which I described in my 2nd paragraph here. The "Diesel" which Varney is referring to here is the same Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K -- not the F-3 2060K.

As HO Seeker -- and you -- are both not referring to these pages in the same way as they're actually numbered, nor are you using HO Seeker's system, I'm having some difficulty in following all of this, but so far I think I'm keeping up. Your "Page 2" of the 1951 loco & parts listing/catalog is apparently the page HO Seekers has as F-3AB Diesel 2 and your "Page 3" of this same publication is apparently what HO Seeker is calling 2230-K Yard Switcher 2 -- or do you mean HO Seeker's 2230-K Yard Switcher 1?.  These (except "Yard Switcher 1") are solid black pages with white print and illustrations. Every page is numbered at the bottom with the actual publication's page number, with your Page 2 being the publication's Page 9 and your Page 3 being the publications Page 10 or 11. For better communication, I'd suggest using these page numbers in Varney's catalogs.

Now, getting back to what I'm guessing to be meaning "Page 1a" by you -- appearing to be HO Seeker's Page F-3AB Diesel 1, and the publication's page 8 -- agreed, this shows the parts listing of the F-3 Brute including the DC-71 motor and the 3-piece gear box catalog numbers, each listed separately.   Your Page 2 of the 1951 "catalog," having the exploded view of the F-3 Brute with the DC-71 drive with the 3-piece gear box; each piece shown separately. Your Page 3, either HO Seeker 2230-K Yard Switcher 1 or 2230-K Yard Switcher 2, definitely shows the DC-60 motor as mounted on the one piece 2209A gear box -- but, we're not looking at a Varney F-3 Diesel, but instead, the Varney NW-2 Diesel Switcher.

As to your third paragraph, while I'm still not finding your reference of "2060-K" associated with being an F3 AB Diesel (In 1951 -- still assuming you're using HO Seeker's literature), agreed, the 2060-K is a Varney F-3 and more specifically this catalog number was for only describing the F-3 Brute. With HO Seeker, the two pages on the F3 AB Diesel, with parts listing and exploded view are found (only) on HO Seeker F3AB Diesel 1 (page 8 in the publication) and on HO Seeker F3AB Diesel 2 (page 9 in the publication). Nothing else is shown nor described in whole nor in part in the Varney 1951 1,001 Genuine HO Loco & Car Parts by Varney (described by HO Seeker as the Varney 1951 Catalog), except for the small photo and description/pricing of the "Brute" Diesel as "Varney's Famous Diesel Locomotives" on HO Seekers "Locomotive" page (page 4 of the publication) and on HO Seeker page "Parts List 3," your apparent Page 1-a (Page 35 in the publication), where the parts are listed by catalog numbers and priced. You'll please note, that the two pages on the F3AB Diesel, including the exploded view show only the DC-71 motor with the three-piece gear box. The exploded view of the DC-60 motor and one piece gear box drive will only be found on the Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K page, not on any other page except for the DC-60 motor being found on the "Casey Jones" page and also as being used with the Dockside "Li'l Joe" Switcher. The "Old Lady" Consolidation was not yet produced in 1951.

Please go back to HO Seeker where you'll find the DC-60 and one-piece gear box on the same page (only) with the Varney Yard Diesel No.2230-K.

Not quite sure who you mean by "Erv," except possibly Irv Athearn,but Gordon Varney did not produce his F-3 Brute until the Fall of 1951 (not in 1949, as you might have hoped), as we've already discussed. On the two different drives -- belt vs gears -- I had no preference as each had it's advantages, with the belt drive being less noisy -- and the speed was adjustable with a change in the belts' position.   As you have a Varney plastic F3 with the EDC60 and one piece gear box, this goes along with what I said abot Sol Kramer leter producing his F-3's with these features, although with the shorter wheelbase, its of course incorrect for an F-3 -- besides not having the correct truck sideframes for the EMD F-3. This still has litte to do with the diecast F-3's we were discussing. Any diecast, Varney F-3's having a DC-60 motor and one-piece gear box must have been changed out by a previous modeler as Gordon Varney never produced them that way. There's the chance the Sol Kramer used this mechanism on some F-3's when he received the inventory from Gordon Varney, but I don't believe they were ever cataloged that way (if he even did that), and I don't see HO Seeker as referring to them; I don't have all of Sol Kramer's Varney catalogs, but have every one of Gordon Varney's catalogs.



More later,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/2/2018 5:33:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

The 1948 catalog on hoseeker shows the DC60, one piece drive. There is no 1949 catalog there. The 1950 catalog shows a 4 unit set photo and text with the Brute F3 for $28.95. The text also shows A or B unit kits for $20.95. The 1950 brochure shows the same photo and text for the Brute but the A or B kits for $19.75, which I’ve seen in later catalogs for the DC60 w/one piece gear box drive.

Scrolling down the individual locomotive data, the F3 has several different models listed. But, to keep things confined to one year, the 1951 2060-K has three pages; 1-a comprehensive F3 parts list containing parts for both the DC71 three piece gear box drive and the DC60 one piece gear box drive. Page 2 is an exploded view of the Brute with DC71 drive and page 3 shows assembly instruction with illustrations of DC60 with one piece gear box.

Above the 2060-K is a “F3 AB Diesel 1951” with 2 pages, the first being an exploded view of the DC60 one piece gear box drive and the second is the same instruction sheet used in the 2060-K set.

Now I quite certain the Erv had his Brute when I got my Mantua Mikado for Christmas 1949. But, searching Varney 1949 adds in MR Varney’s big F3 power truck announcement was for the V4 power truck. Probably a good runner but there was no way to make it an 8 wheel drive. The frame had to be divided into two non equal parts to make room for long V4 power truck and there was no way to have a drive shaft to the second truck. It could be that we only had the Lindsay NW2 when I got the Mike but I remember waiting to see how well my Mike would pull compared to Erv’s F3. Anyway, both drives were available at the some point. BTW, I do not consider whether they used gears or belts as a factor on the drive types as both had both over time. That was just a variation on the whichever gear boxes were used.

I have about 4 or so diecast and one plastic F3’s in my possession that have the DC60 with one piece gear boxes. Not something subject to memory as the last time I had them on track to test and lube was the Sunday before last. The plastic shell one has plastic spur gears and some plastic in the gear box but is still the same one piece box as used earlier. I know in later times after Gordon sold the business there were different all plastic drives used.

Regards one revolution = one tooth, you may be correct as regards those old Mantua’s but I think it may depend on the pitch of the worm. And, of course there were those weird double cut worms used in some imports the that doesn’t apply here. I have enough of those Mantua’s sitting around here to check it out but not the time until next week.

Done a tad of hot rodding myself when I wore a younger mans clothes. Many early differentials used worm drive, particularly on trucks. And the heavier duty the truck, the more likely they were to use worm drive differentials. This was industry wide. With gear ratio’s running well into the 6’s or even higher it was much easier to do reliable drive using a worm using the technology and materials of the day.

I am well familiar with gear ratio’s in automobiles and how the ratio affects speed, acceleration and mileage. And N0ISE! I drove a friend’s 1956 110 2 dr Chevrolet on a weekend trip to Appleton (just over 100 miles one way) with a rather healthy 327 using headers and side exhaust running 456 gears. The drone was something to behold. Now, when I put a 456 Dana rear axle into my 1963 Dodge 400 (model not motor designation) 2 dr hdtp with a 383 three speed originally with an 8-3/4 with 323 gears rear end, the same power train used many state police departments back then including Wisconsin, the milder cam, cast iron exhaust manifolds and factory rear exhaust, made the noise level much lower. Needless to say I could time the trip in either car by the constant downward movement of the gas gauge!

This is a very interesting thread but I will be gone until next Monday, which will be spent on catching up. But you have piqued my interest and I will have to do some personal research, for my own satisfaction if nothing else.

Thanks,

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2018 11:05 AM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

   John,

Yes, it's understood that the Varney Brute used the Pittman DC-71 motor, but before Varney developed the Brute, when only one truck was powered, the Pittman DC-60 was standard with these F-3's, just as you state, and some modelers would swap out the DC-60 for the DC-71 -- giving their units more power to the single power truck that was also standard before the Brute was offered. I'm not at all sure what you mean by your saying "They were entirely different drives," unless I'm not completely understanding you (in which case, please excuse me), but while the spring-belt/3-position-pulley arrangement was first used -- with the DC-60 in the F-3 -- there's no reason to believe a pulley couldn't be mounted on the DC-71 shaft, which it often was. For that matter, gears could and sometimes were used with this conversion rather than pulleys. The very same 3-piece power truck was used on all Varney die-cast F-3's. So, I fail to see what's so different about the drive used on the DC-60 powered diecast F-3 as opposed to the same drive used on the Brute (except for the Brute powering both trucks, which the DC-60 could also power if the modeler so intended). The single piece power truck (if this is what you have in mind) was used with the NW-2 and only much later was it used on some plastic shell F-3's produced by Kramer.

The only reason why I'm trying to determine the ratio of these drives is because Bob mentioned that the can motors seem to run better at a slower speed. I'm sure that some of the open frame motored mechanisms run equally as slow, even though those that have a lower gear ratio can't throttle down as far -- and the V-2 motor, not actually being "open frame," was geared for creeping when throttled down. Yes, easy enough to count the teeth on the driver axle gear, just by marking one and making a complete revolution as you count them. I believe that would be the ratio right there without having to go any further with counting the revolutions of the worm gear, unless I'm mistaken (not at all an impossibility < g >). As I see it, one revolution of the worm gear advances the driver/driven gear one tooth, no matter how many teeth are on the driver gear. With the number of teeth, the worm is matched up with the specific driver gear, with the "worming" being on a certain angle to mate up with the spacing of the teeth to be compatible.   In other words, If a driver gear has 37 teeth, I believe this should already be understood as being a 37:1 ratio, with the worm having to turn 37 times to make one complete revolution of the driver gear.

With a 29-tooth driver gear, the worm needs only to turn 29 times to complete one revolution of the driver and its gear. A lower (in ratio numbers) ratio like this will have this locomotive running faster as it doesn't take as many turns of the worm to advance the loco down the track as compared to the higher ration (37 tooth drive gear), which needs to have the worm rotate 37 times to go the same distance; to turn the driver one revolution. I don't think that the worm ever completes only a fraction of a revolution of the driver gear as that's the physics of this set up (to advance one tooth with one worm revolution). Please add to or correct anything you see wrong here, but this is the way I've always understood it.

Not to get too far off the topic of model trains, other gearing, such as in automobiles, most often (perhaps always) have ratios in the fractions, but they're not worm driven. Examples; in the "hot rod Ford" days, the standard rear end ratio was 3.56 turns of the driveshaft to 1 rotation of the rear wheel. Without losing too much gas mileage, some guys changed their rear ends to a 3.90 to 1 ratio which gave them more power on the getaway. Still others changed their rear ends to a 4.11 to one ratio which gave them even more power on the take off, but unless the transmission had the fourth(overdrive) gear, the gas mileage would suffer even more. But these ratios were all due to gear mating to gear in the differential.

Best,

Ray

In a message dated 4/1/2018 11:11:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.

I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay.. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme..

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26855	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/3/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Bob,

Could you please tell me which F-3 models they were? Is there a date on these sheets, or do they indicate (or do you remember) if they had plastic bodies? I've never encountered any die cast F-3's or any literature on these die cast F-3's indicating any of these metal F-3's having one piece gear boxes. As I stated, I recall Sol Kramer possibly offering plastic shell F-3's having one piece gear boxes, but that was well after the die cast F-3's were discontinued. Using shorter wheelbase diesel switcher trucks on an F-3 would require using the switcher truck sideframes, which are all wrong for the F-3. As I did state previously though, for all anyone knows, Kramer may have erroneouslyused these trucks on some of the die cast inventory he got from Varney. Anything's possible when trying to make a profit on a newly acquired business.

Ray

In a message dated 4/3/2018 1:55:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was just looking at some F-3 instructions. I found some that show a one piece power truck similar to the NW-2 power truck.

I have some that show the 3 piece power truck also.

I have saved most of the Varney instructions from HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:24 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John,

Thanks very much for responding to my previous message and allowing me to understand your stance in doing so. To begin with, you don't need the Varney 1949 catalog to review this issue as that year's catalog is exactly the same where it pertains to the diecast F-3 that's being offered; same Pittman DC-60 motor used with it and same power truck, with the 3 step pulley arrangement. Before going any further, and getting right to your reference of a "one piece drive," here I'm assuming that you mean the one piece gearbox as opposed to the three piece gearbox. If I'm wrong on that assumption, please let me know, but this is how I'm reading it to mean.

Getting back to the Varney 1948 catalog, of which I have several, I'm assuming you went right to the section in the HOSeeker listing under that catalog marked "F-3," which brings you to pages 26 (page is left unnumbered) and the adjacent Page 27 (so marked). While the three step pulley is mentioned on Page 26, nothing in that text refers to the motor or the power truck. On Page 27, section # 1, the Power Truck and motor are briefly described along with the motor -- being a Pittman 5-pole DC-60. As you've seen, a photo of this assembly accompanies the description. To the right, under section # 5, Diesel Locomotive Kits & Parts, the Power Truck is listed having two purchase options -- the Part No. 1714 Power Truck (Kit) which includes the 5-Pole Motor, the Diesel F-3 truck sideframes (listed as "side), and a trailing truck and 3 step Pulley -- and the Part No. 1718 Power Truck (Unit -- as being assembled {not a kit]) which includes the 5-Pole Motor and 3 step Pulley, less the truck sideframes and trailing truck.

Other than this, there is nothing suggesting Varney offering the shorter one-piece gear box/drive truck. So . . . if this is where you're referring to the use of the one piece drive -- IF you're referring to the one piece gearbox -- then I still fail to see what you're pertaining to as there's absolutely nothing in this catalog on any page that refers to the one piece drive (one piece gearbox), but if this is not where you're going then I may be missing your point entirely and may be on the wrong "track," which I would regret.

Only in presuming this may be what you have in mind, I'd like to continue in drawing your attention to the photo accompanying the brief Power Truck description in the 1948 catalog (on Page 27) in section # 1, and specifically to the power truck gearbox itself which is seen as having somewhat rounded corners to the casting at the point of where the sides and ends meet the top. As you're most likely aware of what the one piece gearbox casting looks like, I'm sure you must be aware that while the one piece gearbox casting is rounded at the end corners although the sides and ends meet the top at a sharp 90 o angle (they're no rounded at all). What we're seeing in this photo is the three piece power truck drive gearbox casting (part #'s 1653, 1654 and 1655), with truck sideframe # 1945. This was the only drive/power truck that was used on all of the Varney diecast F-3's. The one piece drive power truck gearbox (part # 2209A) wasn't developed until 1950, to be used with the then new (in 1950) Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K, and then, that locomotive wasn't offered until the Fall of 1950 -- found only in Fall 1950 3rd and 4th Edition catalogs and not in the earlier 1950 catalogs. These one piece drives, to be used on the NW-2 Diesel Switchers were shorter than the three piece drives used on the Diesel F-3's and had shorter truck sideframes. They weren't suitable to the F-3.

Yes, I note the 4 unit set photo and text for the Varney Brute F-3 in the Fall 1950 4th Edition catalog that HOSeeker displays, same as I have in my Fall 1950 3rd and 4th Edition catalogs. I also note the same photo and text (with lower prices) foe the Brute in what Larry Stevenson (HOSeeker) describes as a brochure but which is actually the early Varney 1950 catalog, which I also have. While we know the Brute didn't come out until 1950, which I've so stated here in the past, as we're not referring to this model (having the Pittman DC-71 motor) but are instead discussing the earlier F-3 having the DC-60 motor, I don't see your point here and I would appreciate knowing what it is as it's only indirectly related to this discussion. Again, ALL Varney diecast powered F-3 models use the same 3 piece power truck gearbox -- even the ones you're pointing out in the HO Seeker literature as the "Brutes." I'm not at all sure what you mean by seeing the DC-60 w/one piece gear box drive (in Varney diecast F-3's, as we're discussing) in later catalogs, although as I said previously you might expect to see that with Sol Kramer's continued (plastic shell)production of the F-3's.

Getting right to your second paragraph, I don't know what you're referring to, to be "scrolling down the individual locomotive data," with the F-3 having several different models listed. Certainly, there is no such page in what Larry describes as the Varney 1950 Brochure (Varney early -- April, I believe -- 1950 Catalog), as the only F-3 to appear in this catalog is with the listing of all the steam locomotives on the page headed with "LOCO'S (for fun and relaxation) - Exiting New Locos 1950." Keeping in line with you in going to the year 1951, I see only the 1,001 Genuine HO Loco & Car Parts booklet under HO Seeker, which Larry describes as a catalog. There, I see nothing at all that is referred to as the "2060-K" which you mention, but I do understand this is the Varney kit number for (only) the Brute F-3A kit, although I do find in the Parts Lists (1, 2 & 3) at the rear, This kit number is included under Varney HO Locomotives, Tenders, Power Trucks, and Motors. The 2060-K is listed as, "Twin-Drive Diesel Kit, A Unit Powered," in HO Seeker's Parts List 3. I also see the listing there for Part Numbers 1714 and 1718, as Power Truck DC-60 Diesel Sides Trailing Truck and Power Truck, DC-60 less Sides & Trailing Truck, respectively -- which I described in my 2nd paragraph here. The "Diesel" which Varney is referring to here is the same Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K -- not the F-3 2060K.

As HO Seeker -- and you -- are both not referring to these pages in the same way as they're actually numbered, nor are you using HO Seeker's system, I'm having some difficulty in following all of this, but so far I think I'm keeping up. Your "Page 2" of the 1951 loco & parts listing/catalog is apparently the page HO Seekers has as F-3AB Diesel 2 and your "Page 3" of this same publication is apparently what HO Seeker is calling 2230-K Yard Switcher 2 -- or do you mean HO Seeker's 2230-K Yard Switcher 1?.  These (except "Yard Switcher 1") are solid black pages with white print and illustrations. Every page is numbered at the bottom with the actual publication's page number, with your Page 2 being the publication's Page 9 and your Page 3 being the publications Page 10 or 11. For better communication, I'd suggest using these page numbers in Varney's catalogs.

Now, getting back to what I'm guessing to be meaning "Page 1a" by you -- appearing to be HO Seeker's Page F-3AB Diesel 1, and the publication's page 8 -- agreed, this shows the parts listing of the F-3 Brute including the DC-71 motor and the 3-piece gear box catalog numbers, each listed separately.   Your Page 2 of the 1951 "catalog," having the exploded view of the F-3 Brute with the DC-71 drive with the 3-piece gear box; each piece shown separately. Your Page 3, either HO Seeker 2230-K Yard Switcher 1 or 2230-K Yard Switcher 2, definitely shows the DC-60 motor as mounted on the one piece 2209A gear box -- but, we're not looking at a Varney F-3 Diesel, but instead, the Varney NW-2 Diesel Switcher.

As to your third paragraph, while I'm still not finding your reference of "2060-K" associated with being an F3 AB Diesel (In 1951 -- still assuming you're using HO Seeker's literature), agreed, the 2060-K is a Varney F-3 and more specifically this catalog number was for only describing the F-3 Brute. With HO Seeker, the two pages on the F3 AB Diesel, with parts listing and exploded view are found (only) on HO Seeker F3AB Diesel 1 (page 8 in the publication) and on HO Seeker F3AB Diesel 2 (page 9 in the publication). Nothing else is shown nor described in whole nor in part in the Varney 1951 1,001 Genuine HO Loco & Car Parts by Varney (described by HO Seeker as the Varney 1951 Catalog), except for the small photo and description/pricing of the "Brute" Diesel as "Varney's Famous Diesel Locomotives" on HO Seekers "Locomotive" page (page 4 of the publication) and on HO Seeker page "Parts List 3," your apparent Page 1-a (Page 35 in the publication), where the parts are listed by catalog numbers and priced. You'll please note, that the two pages on the F3AB Diesel, including the exploded view show only the DC-71 motor with the three-piece gear box. The exploded view of the DC-60 motor and one piece gear box drive will only be found on the Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K page, not on any other page except for the DC-60 motor being found on the "Casey Jones" page and also as being used with the Dockside "Li'l Joe" Switcher. The "Old Lady" Consolidation was not yet produced in 1951.

Please go back to HO Seeker where you'll find the DC-60 and one-piece gear box on the same page (only) with the Varney Yard Diesel No.2230-K.

Not quite sure who you mean by "Erv," except possibly Irv Athearn,but Gordon Varney did not produce his F-3 Brute until the Fall of 1951 (not in 1949, as you might have hoped), as we've already discussed. On the two different drives -- belt vs gears -- I had no preference as each had it's advantages, with the belt drive being less noisy -- and the speed was adjustable with a change in the belts' position.   As you have a Varney plastic F3 with the EDC60 and one piece gear box, this goes along with what I said abot Sol Kramer leter producing his F-3's with these features, although with the shorter wheelbase, its of course incorrect for an F-3 -- besides not having the correct truck sideframes for the EMD F-3. This still has litte to do with the diecast F-3's we were discussing. Any diecast, Varney F-3's having a DC-60 motor and one-piece gear box must have been changed out by a previous modeler as Gordon Varney never produced them that way. There's the chance the Sol Kramer used this mechanism on some F-3's when he received the inventory from Gordon Varney, but I don't believe they were ever cataloged that way (if he even did that), and I don't see HO Seeker as referring to them; I don't have all of Sol Kramer's Varney catalogs, but have every one of Gordon Varney's catalogs.



More later,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/2/2018 5:33:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

The 1948 catalog on hoseeker shows the DC60, one piece drive. There is no 1949 catalog there. The 1950 catalog shows a 4 unit set photo and text with the Brute F3 for $28.95. The text also shows A or B unit kits for $20.95. The 1950 brochure shows the same photo and text for the Brute but the A or B kits for $19.75, which I’ve seen in later catalogs for the DC60 w/one piece gear box drive.

Scrolling down the individual locomotive data, the F3 has several different models listed. But, to keep things confined to one year, the 1951 2060-K has three pages; 1-a comprehensive F3 parts list containing parts for both the DC71 three piece gear box drive and the DC60 one piece gear box drive. Page 2 is an exploded view of the Brute with DC71 drive and page 3 shows assembly instruction with illustrations of DC60 with one piece gear box.

Above the 2060-K is a “F3 AB Diesel 1951” with 2 pages, the first being an exploded view of the DC60 one piece gear box drive and the second is the same instruction sheet used in the 2060-K set.

Now I quite certain the Erv had his Brute when I got my Mantua Mikado for Christmas 1949. But, searching Varney 1949 adds in MR Varney’s big F3 power truck announcement was for the V4 power truck. Probably a good runner but there was no way to make it an 8 wheel drive. The frame had to be divided into two non equal parts to make room for long V4 power truck and there was no way to have a drive shaft to the second truck. It could be that we only had the Lindsay NW2 when I got the Mike but I remember waiting to see how well my Mike would pull compared to Erv’s F3. Anyway, both drives were available at the some point. BTW, I do not consider whether they used gears or belts as a factor on the drive types as both had both over time. That was just a variation on the whichever gear boxes were used.

I have about 4 or so diecast and one plastic F3’s in my possession that have the DC60 with one piece gear boxes. Not something subject to memory as the last time I had them on track to test and lube was the Sunday before last. The plastic shell one has plastic spur gears and some plastic in the gear box but is still the same one piece box as used earlier. I know in later times after Gordon sold the business there were different all plastic drives used.

Regards one revolution = one tooth, you may be correct as regards those old Mantua’s but I think it may depend on the pitch of the worm. And, of course there were those weird double cut worms used in some imports the that doesn’t apply here. I have enough of those Mantua’s sitting around here to check it out but not the time until next week.

Done a tad of hot rodding myself when I wore a younger mans clothes. Many early differentials used worm drive, particularly on trucks. And the heavier duty the truck, the more likely they were to use worm drive differentials. This was industry wide. With gear ratio’s running well into the 6’s or even higher it was much easier to do reliable drive using a worm using the technology and materials of the day.

I am well familiar with gear ratio’s in automobiles and how the ratio affects speed, acceleration and mileage. And N0ISE! I drove a friend’s 1956 110 2 dr Chevrolet on a weekend trip to Appleton (just over 100 miles one way) with a rather healthy 327 using headers and side exhaust running 456 gears. The drone was something to behold. Now, when I put a 456 Dana rear axle into my 1963 Dodge 400 (model not motor designation) 2 dr hdtp with a 383 three speed originally with an 8-3/4 with 323 gears rear end, the same power train used many state police departments back then including Wisconsin, the milder cam, cast iron exhaust manifolds and factory rear exhaust, made the noise level much lower. Needless to say I could time the trip in either car by the constant downward movement of the gas gauge!

This is a very interesting thread but I will be gone until next Monday, which will be spent on catching up. But you have piqued my interest and I will have to do some personal research, for my own satisfaction if nothing else.

Thanks,

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2018 11:05 AM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

   John,

Yes, it's understood that the Varney Brute used the Pittman DC-71 motor, but before Varney developed the Brute, when only one truck was powered, the Pittman DC-60 was standard with these F-3's, just as you state, and some modelers would swap out the DC-60 for the DC-71 -- giving their units more power to the single power truck that was also standard before the Brute was offered. I'm not at all sure what you mean by your saying "They were entirely different drives," unless I'm not completely understanding you (in which case, please excuse me), but while the spring-belt/3-position-pulley arrangement was first used -- with the DC-60 in the F-3 -- there's no reason to believe a pulley couldn't be mounted on the DC-71 shaft, which it often was. For that matter, gears could and sometimes were used with this conversion rather than pulleys. The very same 3-piece power truck was used on all Varney die-cast F-3's. So, I fail to see what's so different about the drive used on the DC-60 powered diecast F-3 as opposed to the same drive used on the Brute (except for the Brute powering both trucks, which the DC-60 could also power if the modeler so intended). The single piece power truck (if this is what you have in mind) was used with the NW-2 and only much later was it used on some plastic shell F-3's produced by Kramer.

The only reason why I'm trying to determine the ratio of these drives is because Bob mentioned that the can motors seem to run better at a slower speed. I'm sure that some of the open frame motored mechanisms run equally as slow, even though those that have a lower gear ratio can't throttle down as far -- and the V-2 motor, not actually being "open frame," was geared for creeping when throttled down. Yes, easy enough to count the teeth on the driver axle gear, just by marking one and making a complete revolution as you count them. I believe that would be the ratio right there without having to go any further with counting the revolutions of the worm gear, unless I'm mistaken (not at all an impossibility < g >). As I see it, one revolution of the worm gear advances the driver/driven gear one tooth, no matter how many teeth are on the driver gear. With the number of teeth, the worm is matched up with the specific driver gear, with the "worming" being on a certain angle to mate up with the spacing of the teeth to be compatible.   In other words, If a driver gear has 37 teeth, I believe this should already be understood as being a 37:1 ratio, with the worm having to turn 37 times to make one complete revolution of the driver gear.

With a 29-tooth driver gear, the worm needs only to turn 29 times to complete one revolution of the driver and its gear. A lower (in ratio numbers) ratio like this will have this locomotive running faster as it doesn't take as many turns of the worm to advance the loco down the track as compared to the higher ration (37 tooth drive gear), which needs to have the worm rotate 37 times to go the same distance; to turn the driver one revolution. I don't think that the worm ever completes only a fraction of a revolution of the driver gear as that's the physics of this set up (to advance one tooth with one worm revolution). Please add to or correct anything you see wrong here, but this is the way I've always understood it.

Not to get too far off the topic of model trains, other gearing, such as in automobiles, most often (perhaps always) have ratios in the fractions, but they're not worm driven. Examples; in the "hot rod Ford" days, the standard rear end ratio was 3.56 turns of the driveshaft to 1 rotation of the rear wheel. Without losing too much gas mileage, some guys changed their rear ends to a 3.90 to 1 ratio which gave them more power on the getaway. Still others changed their rear ends to a 4.11 to one ratio which gave them even more power on the take off, but unless the transmission had the fourth(overdrive) gear, the gas mileage would suffer even more. But these ratios were all due to gear mating to gear in the differential.

Best,

Ray

In a message dated 4/1/2018 11:11:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.

I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay.. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme..

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26856	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 4/3/2018
Subject: Re: Mantus/TYCO??

Attachments :

Ray,

The two pages are attached. One is an F-7 which I assume was plastic.

varneyf7abpg1.jpg

varney2060kf31951pg3.jpg

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2018 11:27 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Bob,

Could you please tell me which F-3 models they were? Is there a date on these sheets, or do they indicate (or do you remember) if they had plastic bodies? I've never encountered any die cast F-3's or any literature on these die cast F-3's indicating any of these metal F-3's having one piece gear boxes. As I stated, I recall Sol Kramer possibly offering plastic shell F-3's having one piece gear boxes, but that was well after the die cast F-3's were discontinued. Using shorter wheelbase diesel switcher trucks on an F-3 would require using the switcher truck sideframes, which are all wrong for the F-3. As I did state previously though, for all anyone knows, Kramer may have erroneouslyused these trucks on some of the die cast inventory he got from Varney. Anything's possible when trying to make a profit on a newly acquired business.

Ray

In a message dated 4/3/2018 1:55:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I was just looking at some F-3 instructions. I found some that show a one piece power truck similar to the NW-2 power truck.

I have some that show the 3 piece power truck also.

I have saved most of the Varney instructions from HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:24 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John,

Thanks very much for responding to my previous message and allowing me to understand your stance in doing so. To begin with, you don't need the Varney 1949 catalog to review this issue as that year's catalog is exactly the same where it pertains to the diecast F-3 that's being offered; same Pittman DC-60 motor used with it and same power truck, with the 3 step pulley arrangement. Before going any further, and getting right to your reference of a "one piece drive," here I'm assuming that you mean the one piece gearbox as opposed to the three piece gearbox. If I'm wrong on that assumption, please let me know, but this is how I'm reading it to mean.

Getting back to the Varney 1948 catalog, of which I have several, I'm assuming you went right to the section in the HOSeeker listing under that catalog marked "F-3," which brings you to pages 26 (page is left unnumbered) and the adjacent Page 27 (so marked). While the three step pulley is mentioned on Page 26, nothing in that text refers to the motor or the power truck. On Page 27, section # 1, the Power Truck and motor are briefly described along with the motor -- being a Pittman 5-pole DC-60. As you've seen, a photo of this assembly accompanies the description. To the right, under section # 5, Diesel Locomotive Kits & Parts, the Power Truck is listed having two purchase options -- the Part No. 1714 Power Truck (Kit) which includes the 5-Pole Motor, the Diesel F-3 truck sideframes (listed as "side), and a trailing truck and 3 step Pulley -- and the Part No. 1718 Power Truck (Unit -- as being assembled {not a kit]) which includes the 5-Pole Motor and 3 step Pulley, less the truck sideframes and trailing truck.

Other than this, there is nothing suggesting Varney offering the shorter one-piece gear box/drive truck. So . . . if this is where you're referring to the use of the one piece drive -- IF you're referring to the one piece gearbox -- then I still fail to see what you're pertaining to as there's absolutely nothing in this catalog on any page that refers to the one piece drive (one piece gearbox), but if this is not where you're going then I may be missing your point entirely and may be on the wrong "track," which I would regret.

Only in presuming this may be what you have in mind, I'd like to continue in drawing your attention to the photo accompanying the brief Power Truck description in the 1948 catalog (on Page 27) in section # 1, and specifically to the power truck gearbox itself which is seen as having somewhat rounded corners to the casting at the point of where the sides and ends meet the top. As you're most likely aware of what the one piece gearbox casting looks like, I'm sure you must be aware that while the one piece gearbox casting is rounded at the end corners although the sides and ends meet the top at a sharp 90 o angle (they're no rounded at all). What we're seeing in this photo is the three piece power truck drive gearbox casting (part #'s 1653, 1654 and 1655), with truck sideframe # 1945. This was the only drive/power truck that was used on all of the Varney diecast F-3's. The one piece drive power truck gearbox (part # 2209A) wasn't developed until 1950, to be used with the then new (in 1950) Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K, and then, that locomotive wasn't offered until the Fall of 1950 -- found only in Fall 1950 3rd and 4th Edition catalogs and not in the earlier 1950 catalogs. These one piece drives, to be used on the NW-2 Diesel Switchers were shorter than the three piece drives used on the Diesel F-3's and had shorter truck sideframes. They weren't suitable to the F-3.

Yes, I note the 4 unit set photo and text for the Varney Brute F-3 in the Fall 1950 4th Edition catalog that HOSeeker displays, same as I have in my Fall 1950 3rd and 4th Edition catalogs. I also note the same photo and text (with lower prices) foe the Brute in what Larry Stevenson (HOSeeker) describes as a brochure but which is actually the early Varney 1950 catalog, which I also have. While we know the Brute didn't come out until 1950, which I've so stated here in the past, as we're not referring to this model (having the Pittman DC-71 motor) but are instead discussing the earlier F-3 having the DC-60 motor, I don't see your point here and I would appreciate knowing what it is as it's only indirectly related to this discussion. Again, ALL Varney diecast powered F-3 models use the same 3 piece power truck gearbox -- even the ones you're pointing out in the HO Seeker literature as the "Brutes." I'm not at all sure what you mean by seeing the DC-60 w/one piece gear box drive (in Varney diecast F-3's, as we're discussing) in later catalogs, although as I said previously you might expect to see that with Sol Kramer's continued (plastic shell)production of the F-3's.

Getting right to your second paragraph, I don't know what you're referring to, to be "scrolling down the individual locomotive data," with the F-3 having several different models listed. Certainly, there is no such page in what Larry describes as the Varney 1950 Brochure (Varney early -- April, I believe -- 1950 Catalog), as the only F-3 to appear in this catalog is with the listing of all the steam locomotives on the page headed with "LOCO'S (for fun and relaxation) - Exiting New Locos 1950." Keeping in line with you in going to the year 1951, I see only the 1,001 Genuine HO Loco & Car Parts booklet under HO Seeker, which Larry describes as a catalog. There, I see nothing at all that is referred to as the "2060-K" which you mention, but I do understand this is the Varney kit number for (only) the Brute F-3A kit, although I do find in the Parts Lists (1, 2 & 3) at the rear, This kit number is included under Varney HO Locomotives, Tenders, Power Trucks, and Motors. The 2060-K is listed as, "Twin-Drive Diesel Kit, A Unit Powered," in HO Seeker's Parts List 3. I also see the listing there for Part Numbers 1714 and 1718, as Power Truck DC-60 Diesel Sides Trailing Truck and Power Truck, DC-60 less Sides & Trailing Truck, respectively -- which I described in my 2nd paragraph here. The "Diesel" which Varney is referring to here is the same Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K -- not the F-3 2060K.

As HO Seeker -- and you -- are both not referring to these pages in the same way as they're actually numbered, nor are you using HO Seeker's system, I'm having some difficulty in following all of this, but so far I think I'm keeping up. Your "Page 2" of the 1951 loco & parts listing/catalog is apparently the page HO Seekers has as F-3AB Diesel 2 and your "Page 3" of this same publication is apparently what HO Seeker is calling 2230-K Yard Switcher 2 -- or do you mean HO Seeker's 2230-K Yard Switcher 1?.  These (except "Yard Switcher 1") are solid black pages with white print and illustrations. Every page is numbered at the bottom with the actual publication's page number, with your Page 2 being the publication's Page 9 and your Page 3 being the publications Page 10 or 11. For better communication, I'd suggest using these page numbers in Varney's catalogs.

Now, getting back to what I'm guessing to be meaning "Page 1a" by you -- appearing to be HO Seeker's Page F-3AB Diesel 1, and the publication's page 8 -- agreed, this shows the parts listing of the F-3 Brute including the DC-71 motor and the 3-piece gear box catalog numbers, each listed separately.   Your Page 2 of the 1951 "catalog," having the exploded view of the F-3 Brute with the DC-71 drive with the 3-piece gear box; each piece shown separately. Your Page 3, either HO Seeker 2230-K Yard Switcher 1 or 2230-K Yard Switcher 2, definitely shows the DC-60 motor as mounted on the one piece 2209A gear box -- but, we're not looking at a Varney F-3 Diesel, but instead, the Varney NW-2 Diesel Switcher.

As to your third paragraph, while I'm still not finding your reference of "2060-K" associated with being an F3 AB Diesel (In 1951 -- still assuming you're using HO Seeker's literature), agreed, the 2060-K is a Varney F-3 and more specifically this catalog number was for only describing the F-3 Brute. With HO Seeker, the two pages on the F3 AB Diesel, with parts listing and exploded view are found (only) on HO Seeker F3AB Diesel 1 (page 8 in the publication) and on HO Seeker F3AB Diesel 2 (page 9 in the publication). Nothing else is shown nor described in whole nor in part in the Varney 1951 1,001 Genuine HO Loco & Car Parts by Varney (described by HO Seeker as the Varney 1951 Catalog), except for the small photo and description/pricing of the "Brute" Diesel as "Varney's Famous Diesel Locomotives" on HO Seekers "Locomotive" page (page 4 of the publication) and on HO Seeker page "Parts List 3," your apparent Page 1-a (Page 35 in the publication), where the parts are listed by catalog numbers and priced. You'll please note, that the two pages on the F3AB Diesel, including the exploded view show only the DC-71 motor with the three-piece gear box. The exploded view of the DC-60 motor and one piece gear box drive will only be found on the Varney Yard Diesel Locomotive No. 2230K page, not on any other page except for the DC-60 motor being found on the "Casey Jones" page and also as being used with the Dockside "Li'l Joe" Switcher. The "Old Lady" Consolidation was not yet produced in 1951.

Please go back to HO Seeker where you'll find the DC-60 and one-piece gear box on the same page (only) with the Varney Yard Diesel No.2230-K.

Not quite sure who you mean by "Erv," except possibly Irv Athearn,but Gordon Varney did not produce his F-3 Brute until the Fall of 1951 (not in 1949, as you might have hoped), as we've already discussed. On the two different drives -- belt vs gears -- I had no preference as each had it's advantages, with the belt drive being less noisy -- and the speed was adjustable with a change in the belts' position.   As you have a Varney plastic F3 with the EDC60 and one piece gear box, this goes along with what I said abot Sol Kramer leter producing his F-3's with these features, although with the shorter wheelbase, its of course incorrect for an F-3 -- besides not having the correct truck sideframes for the EMD F-3. This still has litte to do with the diecast F-3's we were discussing. Any diecast, Varney F-3's having a DC-60 motor and one-piece gear box must have been changed out by a previous modeler as Gordon Varney never produced them that way. There's the chance the Sol Kramer used this mechanism on some F-3's when he received the inventory from Gordon Varney, but I don't believe they were ever cataloged that way (if he even did that), and I don't see HO Seeker as referring to them; I don't have all of Sol Kramer's Varney catalogs, but have every one of Gordon Varney's catalogs.



More later,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/2/2018 5:33:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

The 1948 catalog on hoseeker shows the DC60, one piece drive. There is no 1949 catalog there. The 1950 catalog shows a 4 unit set photo and text with the Brute F3 for $28.95. The text also shows A or B unit kits for $20.95. The 1950 brochure shows the same photo and text for the Brute but the A or B kits for $19.75, which I’ve seen in later catalogs for the DC60 w/one piece gear box drive.

Scrolling down the individual locomotive data, the F3 has several different models listed. But, to keep things confined to one year, the 1951 2060-K has three pages; 1-a comprehensive F3 parts list containing parts for both the DC71 three piece gear box drive and the DC60 one piece gear box drive. Page 2 is an exploded view of the Brute with DC71 drive and page 3 shows assembly instruction with illustrations of DC60 with one piece gear box.

Above the 2060-K is a “F3 AB Diesel 1951” with 2 pages, the first being an exploded view of the DC60 one piece gear box drive and the second is the same instruction sheet used in the 2060-K set.

Now I quite certain the Erv had his Brute when I got my Mantua Mikado for Christmas 1949. But, searching Varney 1949 adds in MR Varney’s big F3 power truck announcement was for the V4 power truck. Probably a good runner but there was no way to make it an 8 wheel drive. The frame had to be divided into two non equal parts to make room for long V4 power truck and there was no way to have a drive shaft to the second truck. It could be that we only had the Lindsay NW2 when I got the Mike but I remember waiting to see how well my Mike would pull compared to Erv’s F3. Anyway, both drives were available at the some point. BTW, I do not consider whether they used gears or belts as a factor on the drive types as both had both over time. That was just a variation on the whichever gear boxes were used.

I have about 4 or so diecast and one plastic F3’s in my possession that have the DC60 with one piece gear boxes. Not something subject to memory as the last time I had them on track to test and lube was the Sunday before last. The plastic shell one has plastic spur gears and some plastic in the gear box but is still the same one piece box as used earlier. I know in later times after Gordon sold the business there were different all plastic drives used.

Regards one revolution = one tooth, you may be correct as regards those old Mantua’s but I think it may depend on the pitch of the worm. And, of course there were those weird double cut worms used in some imports the that doesn’t apply here. I have enough of those Mantua’s sitting around here to check it out but not the time until next week.

Done a tad of hot rodding myself when I wore a younger mans clothes. Many early differentials used worm drive, particularly on trucks. And the heavier duty the truck, the more likely they were to use worm drive differentials. This was industry wide. With gear ratio’s running well into the 6’s or even higher it was much easier to do reliable drive using a worm using the technology and materials of the day.

I am well familiar with gear ratio’s in automobiles and how the ratio affects speed, acceleration and mileage. And N0ISE! I drove a friend’s 1956 110 2 dr Chevrolet on a weekend trip to Appleton (just over 100 miles one way) with a rather healthy 327 using headers and side exhaust running 456 gears. The drone was something to behold. Now, when I put a 456 Dana rear axle into my 1963 Dodge 400 (model not motor designation) 2 dr hdtp with a 383 three speed originally with an 8-3/4 with 323 gears rear end, the same power train used many state police departments back then including Wisconsin, the milder cam, cast iron exhaust manifolds and factory rear exhaust, made the noise level much lower. Needless to say I could time the trip in either car by the constant downward movement of the gas gauge!

This is a very interesting thread but I will be gone until next Monday, which will be spent on catching up. But you have piqued my interest and I will have to do some personal research, for my own satisfaction if nothing else.

Thanks,

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2018 11:05 AM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

   John,

Yes, it's understood that the Varney Brute used the Pittman DC-71 motor, but before Varney developed the Brute, when only one truck was powered, the Pittman DC-60 was standard with these F-3's, just as you state, and some modelers would swap out the DC-60 for the DC-71 -- giving their units more power to the single power truck that was also standard before the Brute was offered. I'm not at all sure what you mean by your saying "They were entirely different drives," unless I'm not completely understanding you (in which case, please excuse me), but while the spring-belt/3-position-pulley arrangement was first used -- with the DC-60 in the F-3 -- there's no reason to believe a pulley couldn't be mounted on the DC-71 shaft, which it often was. For that matter, gears could and sometimes were used with this conversion rather than pulleys. The very same 3-piece power truck was used on all Varney die-cast F-3's. So, I fail to see what's so different about the drive used on the DC-60 powered diecast F-3 as opposed to the same drive used on the Brute (except for the Brute powering both trucks, which the DC-60 could also power if the modeler so intended). The single piece power truck (if this is what you have in mind) was used with the NW-2 and only much later was it used on some plastic shell F-3's produced by Kramer.

The only reason why I'm trying to determine the ratio of these drives is because Bob mentioned that the can motors seem to run better at a slower speed. I'm sure that some of the open frame motored mechanisms run equally as slow, even though those that have a lower gear ratio can't throttle down as far -- and the V-2 motor, not actually being "open frame," was geared for creeping when throttled down. Yes, easy enough to count the teeth on the driver axle gear, just by marking one and making a complete revolution as you count them. I believe that would be the ratio right there without having to go any further with counting the revolutions of the worm gear, unless I'm mistaken (not at all an impossibility < g >). As I see it, one revolution of the worm gear advances the driver/driven gear one tooth, no matter how many teeth are on the driver gear. With the number of teeth, the worm is matched up with the specific driver gear, with the "worming" being on a certain angle to mate up with the spacing of the teeth to be compatible.   In other words, If a driver gear has 37 teeth, I believe this should already be understood as being a 37:1 ratio, with the worm having to turn 37 times to make one complete revolution of the driver gear.

With a 29-tooth driver gear, the worm needs only to turn 29 times to complete one revolution of the driver and its gear. A lower (in ratio numbers) ratio like this will have this locomotive running faster as it doesn't take as many turns of the worm to advance the loco down the track as compared to the higher ration (37 tooth drive gear), which needs to have the worm rotate 37 times to go the same distance; to turn the driver one revolution. I don't think that the worm ever completes only a fraction of a revolution of the driver gear as that's the physics of this set up (to advance one tooth with one worm revolution). Please add to or correct anything you see wrong here, but this is the way I've always understood it.

Not to get too far off the topic of model trains, other gearing, such as in automobiles, most often (perhaps always) have ratios in the fractions, but they're not worm driven. Examples; in the "hot rod Ford" days, the standard rear end ratio was 3.56 turns of the driveshaft to 1 rotation of the rear wheel. Without losing too much gas mileage, some guys changed their rear ends to a 3.90 to 1 ratio which gave them more power on the getaway. Still others changed their rear ends to a 4.11 to one ratio which gave them even more power on the take off, but unless the transmission had the fourth(overdrive) gear, the gas mileage would suffer even more. But these ratios were all due to gear mating to gear in the differential.

Best,

Ray

In a message dated 4/1/2018 11:11:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The Varney “Brute” drives used a DC71 as standard. The basic or economy drive used the DC60. They were entirely different drives.

I don’t know what the question you’re trying to answer about Mantua drives gearing. The number of teeth in the worm gear is easy enough to get but that does not tell what the overall ratio is. I you’re may be trying to determine the drive ratio, there is an easy to determine if you have one handy. Just mark a tooth on the worm gear then turn the worm enough revolutions until the worm gear makes one full revolution. Just count how many revolutions of the worm was needed and you have the ratio. Assuming the worm won’t end with a full revolution when the worm gear completes its revolution, the fraction of the last revolution can be closely estimated. Sorry if I have this all wrong as to your question as regards the number of teeth on the worm gear but I don’t know why else you’d need that information.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2018 2:14 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Thanks Bob, for confirming what I expected from the can motors. I never installed a can motor in any of my engines and always preferred the open frame Pittman DC-71 motors for their pulling power even if they can be a bit noisy at times. I never was able to find the specs on Mantua's gearing, although a count of the exposed driver gear would tell (which I haven't done recently). Still, unless the enclosed gear box is disassembled, there's no way to know the count on that driver gear to compare them. Varney uses a 37-tooth driver gear for the Super locos, which provides good low speed operation (and good pulling power). I died see in one of my Mantua catalogs, that they used a No. 38 worm gear in the enclosed gearbox, but I have no idea what that means. From what I've seen from my enclosed gear box Mantua locos, they can also be throttled down nicely.

Getting back to Varney, some modelers swapped out the DC-60 for a DC-71 in their Cast F-3's. While the DC-60 is decent, and may sometimes be the only motor that will fit in some models, I don't particularly like its reduced pulling power, even if the model it's installed in is small and not as heavy as the large road engines; it's the number of cars to be pulled that I'm concerned about. As for switchers, that motor is just fine as they seldom go out on the road with a long consist. I believe the standard Varney Locos have a 29 tooth driver gear, substantially increasing the loco's speed at the same motor RPM. They can be throttled down on pulse power, but these open frame motors don't take too kindly to that for any length of time without heating up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/1/2018 12:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My comment that was lost was about a TYCO (it looked like a Mantua to me) that had the worm in a small casting the bolted tot he top of the frame above the geared driver. There were no adjustments but it seemed to work well.

I used to put Cary boilers on these drives and superdetail them with mostly CalScale parts. I am too old to do that anymore.

I think I remember the Pittman motors were noisier but stronger than the can motors. The can motors seemed to run better at lower speed but did not have the pulling power.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa.

Original Message -----

From: Corlissbs corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 6:08 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

Don’t forget the four screws.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 31, 2018, at 1:00 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Brad,

I didn’t remember that the any f’s had the Mantua name on them.

I often go through the Mantua/Tyco auctions on eBay.. If they don’t have a photo of the underside I don’t bother.

I’m looking for any twin motor ones that aren’t advertized as such.. Them that know what they have want too much money for my budget.

I managed to snag a couple doing that.

I also have two dual motored sharks, one very early one in the original Tyco box and with the Tyco paint scheme..

I take it to swaps but I’ll stop doing that come fall. I’m getting afraid someone may actually buy it for my $75.00 ask.

I’m now thinking I’ll set it aside with my with my Hobbytown version. I also plan to repower an original single motor with Mantua’s last, flywheel equipped drive.

When done it’ll be the quietest one of the bunch, quieter even that the two motor one.

I am of the belief that the most powerful will the Hobbytown, with the two motor next but the late Mantua should do well. The drive runs extremely well with good power, thanks to the heavy frame. With the diecast shark body…….

I remember seeing the clear shell advertized but didn’t have much interest..

I don’t recall if any F’s came as kits.. The Sharks did; it took installation of 4 screws to assemble. Not hardly even “shake the box.”

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantus/TYCO??

John, it still is more complicated. I am holding my 1960 Mantua (in a Mantua box) New Haven "F9". The bottom of the fuel tank reads MANTUA TYCO. When the diesels first came out they were in both the Mantua and Tyco name. They were single and dual power and you could even get one with a clear body so you could see the power trucks.. Mine was RTR, but I seem to remember them as kits for a while, in the hobby shop.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26857	From: terry.cowger	Date: 4/5/2018
Subject: pitman magnet conversion

any one here try this ?

How did it work?

was it worth it or would it be better to install a can motor?

Thanks T.C.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26858	From: trainliker	Date: 4/5/2018
Subject: Re: pitman magnet conversion

Attachments :

Try what?

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: terry.cowger@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 11:31 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] pitman magnet conversion

any one here try this ?

How did it work?

was it worth it or would it be better to install a can motor?

Thanks T.C.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26859	From: terry.cowger	Date: 4/6/2018
Subject: Re: pitman magnet conversion

Ok sorry I didn't explain myself ?

There are kits you can buy to replace the OE magnets used in the old Pitman motors with newer more powerful magnets.

It is supposed to make them perform much better and run smother and slower than stock.

Thought I would ask if anyone here had tried the conversion and how well it worked.

Thanks T.C.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26860	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/6/2018
Subject: Re: pitman magnet conversion

Your message seems to address a question on the rare earth magnets to replace or supplement your existing AlNiCo magnet in your Pittman motor. There appears to be a contemporary model railroad discussion group associated with Model Railroader Magazine. I've never joined it but have occasionally gone up to it as a hit while searching for hobby related info. Whether it's still in existence, I have no knowledge of that. However, there's an interesting thread from 2015 with nine replies on this very topic to be found on the 'Net;

Go to < cs.trains.com < . . . > Replacing open frame magnets with new rare earth magnets >. Those discussing this subject there seem to be very knowledgeable. I've never tried this myself, only because it didn't look to me to be a simple matter, so I dismissed the idea, on top of which I didn't want to mess up an otherwise decent open frame motor. As I understand it, the replacement magnets need to be installed with the polarity in the same direction as the old magnet, or the engine will run backwards if not done right. From the input on this site, it was a big improvement over a weakened Pittman magnet, while reports have indicated that some of these older motors are still as strong as ever, not needing this improvement. Probably all depends on how bad your present motor's magnet performs as to whether you really need this modification.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/6/2018 7:54:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ok sorry I didn't explain myself ?

There are kits you can buy to replace the OE magnets used in the old Pitman motors with newer more powerful magnets.

It is supposed to make them perform much better and run smother and slower than stock.

Thought I would ask if anyone here had tried the conversion and how well it worked.

Thanks T.C.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26861	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 4/6/2018
Subject: Re: pitman magnet conversion

T. C.,

I suggest you join RepowerAndRegear@.... There is a lot of information about replacement rare earth magnets.Just search "rare earth magnets" once you've joined.

Regards,
Walter Bayer

P.S.: Don, I attempted to answer T.C. using the "Rely via web post", "Reply to sender', and "Reply to group" buttons at the bottom of the page, and none of them worked. I am sending this with the gmail reply button. Perhaps, Don, it's time to migrate to groups.io.

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:58 PM, terry.cowger@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Ok sorry I didn't explain myself ?
There are kits you can buy to replace the OE magnets used in the old Pitman motors with newer more powerful magnets.
It is supposed to make them perform much better and run smother and slower than stock.
Thought I would ask if anyone here had tried the conversion and how well it worked.
Thanks T.C.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26862	From: WILLIAM	Date: 4/6/2018
Subject: Re: pitman magnet conversion

I have a Pitman dc60 conversion that runs well. Yes, the motor runs with a lower current and smother at low speed. But, I have trouble with the stronger magnetic field, picking up iron bits along the track, slowing at times over the uncoupling magnetics and attracting steel weighted cars. Who would have thought. My preference is for the can motors.

Bill Anderson

From: terry.cowger@... [vintageHO]

Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 5:58 PM

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: pitman magnet conversion

Ok sorry I didn't explain myself ?

There are kits you can buy to replace the OE magnets used in the old Pitman motors with newer more powerful magnets.

It is supposed to make them perform much better and run smother and slower than stock.

Thought I would ask if anyone here had tried the conversion and how well it worked.

Thanks T.C.

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26863	From: Terry Cowger	Date: 4/6/2018
Subject: Re: pitman magnet conversion

Thanks for the reply William:

"attracting steel weighted cars" WOW how many magnets did you put in the motor ?

I can see this could be a problem as I did spike my track down.

The problem I have with the "can" motors of today is they look like cheep .69 cents jap motors used in junk toys from the 60's. (only now they are made in China) most of them don't even have brush springs, the price also reflects the quality 1.25 to 2.00 ea. with free shipping.

The ones that are of quality are very expensive and out of my price range.

I know the old Pitmans were made fairly well so why not give it a try ? (hope I don't pull the nails out of the wall)

I thank you for your input, I didn't think about them being to strong so I'm glad you brought that to my attention.

T.C.

From: "'WILLIAM' wilmeaux@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 6, 2018 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: pitman magnet conversion

Bill Anderson

From: terry.cowger@... [vintageHO]

Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 5:58 PM

http://hoseeker.com/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney040docksideswitcher1950pg2.jpg

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: pitman magnet conversion

Ok sorry I didn't explain myself ?

There are kits you can buy to replace the OE magnets used in the old Pitman motors with newer more powerful magnets.

It is supposed to make them perform much better and run smother and slower than stock.

Thought I would ask if anyone here had tried the conversion and how well it worked.

Thanks T.C.

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26864	From: bitlerisvj	Date: 4/8/2018
Subject: Varney Dockside

Hi folks,
I have an old (1947) Varney Dockside. I installed a can motor and ran it very well to check out any issues. My plan was to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and a TCS WOW steam decoder in it. But, alas, it had a thump thump in it and I found out two things. 1. the frame slots were pretty worn. That may be fixable, but not easy. 2. The drivers were wobbly, meaning, not perpendicular to the axles. This caused a change in the distance for the coupling rods every revolution and was most likely the cause of the thump thump. I do not see how the drivers could be fixed. I am now looking for a donor dockside to see if I can get one without these issues. Additionally, I am aware that Varney sold its dies to Life Like and the Life Like dockside may be compatible to the old Varney dockside? If that is true, then, I should be able to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and Varney dockside boiler on top of the Life Like chassis?
Does anyone know if that is possible, or do I need to search for a not totally worn out dockside donor?
Thanks and regards, Vic B.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26865	From: Brad Smith	Date: 4/8/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

No, you need a Bowser dockside.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Apr 8, 2018, at 10:45 AM, bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi folks,
I have an old (1947) Varney Dockside. I installed a can motor and ran it very well to check out any issues. My plan was to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and a TCS WOW steam decoder in it. But, alas, it had a thump thump in it and I found out two things. 1. the frame slots were pretty worn. That may be fixable, but not easy. 2. The drivers were wobbly, meaning, not perpendicular to the axles. This caused a change in the distance for the coupling rods every revolution and was most likely the cause of the thump thump. I do not see how the drivers could be fixed. I am now looking for a donor dockside to see if I can get one without these issues. Additionally, I am aware that Varney sold its dies to Life Like and the Life Like dockside may be compatible to the old Varney dockside? If that is true, then, I should be able to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and Varney docksid e boiler on top of the Life Like chassis?
Does anyone know if that is possible, or do I need to search for a not totally worn out dockside donor?
Thanks and regards, Vic B.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26866	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/8/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

Ok, but I thought Life Like and Bowser docksides were the same. However, I will definitely look for a Bowser dockside if that works.

Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

No, you need a Bowser dockside.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Apr 8, 2018, at 10:45 AM, bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi folks,
I have an old (1947) Varney Dockside. I installed a can motor and ran it very well to check out any issues. My plan was to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and a TCS WOW steam decoder in it. But, alas, it had a thump thump in it and I found out two things. 1. the frame slots were pretty worn. That may be fixable, but not easy. 2. The drivers were wobbly, meaning, not perpendicular to the axles. This caused a change in the distance for the coupling rods every revolution and was most likely the cause of the thump thump. I do not see how the drivers could be fixed. I am now looking for a donor dockside to see if I can get one without these issues. Additionally, I am aware that Varney sold its dies to Life Like and the Life Like dockside may be compatible to the old Varney dockside? If that is true, then, I should be able to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and Varney docksid e boiler on top of the Life Like chassis?
Does anyone know if that is possible, or do I need to search for a not totally worn out dockside donor?
Thanks and regards, Vic B.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26867	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 4/8/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

The LifeLike and Bowser Docksides ARE NOT THE SAME!

The Bowser (English) Dockside is probably the best there was but they are rare now.

You can probably get a new frame from Bowser but they don't have any drivers left.

"BG Gameboy" has been parting out Docksides on eBay. Watch for a set of drivers there.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 10:46 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

Ok, but I thought Life Like and Bowser docksides were the same. However, I will definitely look for a Bowser dockside if that works.

Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

No, you need a Bowser dockside.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Apr 8, 2018, at 10:45 AM, bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi folks,
I have an old (1947) Varney Dockside. I installed a can motor and ran it very well to check out any issues. My plan was to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and a TCS WOW steam decoder in it. But, alas, it had a thump thump in it and I found out two things. 1. the frame slots were pretty worn. That may be fixable, but not easy. 2. The drivers were wobbly, meaning, not perpendicular to the axles. This caused a change in the distance for the coupling rods every revolution and was most likely the cause of the thump thump. I do not see how the drivers could be fixed. I am now looking for a donor dockside to see if I can get one without these issues. Additionally, I am aware that Varney sold its dies to Life Like and the Life Like dockside may be compatible to the old Varney dockside? If that is true, then, I should be able to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and Varney docksid e boiler on top of the Life Like chassis?
Does anyone know if that is possible, or do I need to search for a not totally worn out dockside donor?
Thanks and regards, Vic B.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26868	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/8/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

Yes, I looked up the Bowser web site and found the info. They do have the old style drivers, but no gear. The frame that is available is the new style and probably won't work, besides, I would have to try to get all of the gear box and gear parts as well. I think I will just look for another Varney dockside with a good frame and drivers. There is a guy on eBay selling the drivers, so I may go with that and see if I can machine the frame to use Mantua bearings if all else fails.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 3:05 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

The LifeLike and Bowser Docksides ARE NOT THE SAME!

The Bowser (English) Dockside is probably the best there was but they are rare now.

You can probably get a new frame from Bowser but they don't have any drivers left.

"BG Gameboy" has been parting out Docksides on eBay. Watch for a set of drivers there.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 10:46 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

Ok, but I thought Life Like and Bowser docksides were the same. However, I will definitely look for a Bowser dockside if that works.

Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

No, you need a Bowser dockside.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Apr 8, 2018, at 10:45 AM, bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi folks,
I have an old (1947) Varney Dockside. I installed a can motor and ran it very well to check out any issues. My plan was to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and a TCS WOW steam decoder in it. But, alas, it had a thump thump in it and I found out two things. 1. the frame slots were pretty worn. That may be fixable, but not easy. 2. The drivers were wobbly, meaning, not perpendicular to the axles. This caused a change in the distance for the coupling rods every revolution and was most likely the cause of the thump thump. I do not see how the drivers could be fixed. I am now looking for a donor dockside to see if I can get one without these issues. Additionally, I am aware that Varney sold its dies to Life Like and the Life Like dockside may be compatible to the old Varney dockside? If that is true, then, I should be able to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and Varney docksid e boiler on top of the Life Like chassis?
Does anyone know if that is possible, or do I need to search for a not totally worn out dockside donor?
Thanks and regards, Vic B.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26869	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 4/8/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

The guy that sells the Dockside parts on eBay also has the frames sometimes. You just have to watch.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 1:13 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

Yes, I looked up the Bowser web site and found the info. They do have the old style drivers, but no gear. The frame that is available is the new style and probably won't work, besides, I would have to try to get all of the gear box and gear parts as well. I think I will just look for another Varney dockside with a good frame and drivers. There is a guy on eBay selling the drivers, so I may go with that and see if I can machine the frame to use Mantua bearings if all else fails.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 3:05 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

The LifeLike and Bowser Docksides ARE NOT THE SAME!

The Bowser (English) Dockside is probably the best there was but they are rare now.

You can probably get a new frame from Bowser but they don't have any drivers left.

"BG Gameboy" has been parting out Docksides on eBay. Watch for a set of drivers there.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 10:46 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

Ok, but I thought Life Like and Bowser docksides were the same. However, I will definitely look for a Bowser dockside if that works.

Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

No, you need a Bowser dockside.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Apr 8, 2018, at 10:45 AM, bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi folks,
I have an old (1947) Varney Dockside. I installed a can motor and ran it very well to check out any issues. My plan was to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and a TCS WOW steam decoder in it. But, alas, it had a thump thump in it and I found out two things. 1. the frame slots were pretty worn. That may be fixable, but not easy. 2. The drivers were wobbly, meaning, not perpendicular to the axles. This caused a change in the distance for the coupling rods every revolution and was most likely the cause of the thump thump. I do not see how the drivers could be fixed. I am now looking for a donor dockside to see if I can get one without these issues. Additionally, I am aware that Varney sold its dies to Life Like and the Life Like dockside may be compatible to the old Varney dockside? If that is true, then, I should be able to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and Varney docksid e boiler on top of the Life Like chassis?
Does anyone know if that is possible, or do I need to search for a not totally worn out dockside donor?
Thanks and regards, Vic B.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26870	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 4/9/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

Victor,

The Bowser Dockside and the Varney Dockside chassis are not really compatible. It can be made to fit however.

One solution would be to carefully file out the original grooves to fit Mantua brass bearings. I am more or less an advocate for using the original parts if they can be obtained. I do have a few chassis frames laying around myself.

Sincerely,

Sean

On Sunday, April 8, 2018, 4:20:12 PM EDT, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The guy that sells the Dockside parts on eBay also has the frames sometimes. You just have to watch.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 1:13 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

Yes, I looked up the Bowser web site and found the info. They do have the old style drivers, but no gear. The frame that is available is the new style and probably won't work, besides, I would have to try to get all of the gear box and gear parts as well. I think I will just look for another Varney dockside with a good frame and drivers. There is a guy on eBay selling the drivers, so I may go with that and see if I can machine the frame to use Mantua bearings if all else fails.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 3:05 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

The LifeLike and Bowser Docksides ARE NOT THE SAME!

The Bowser (English) Dockside is probably the best there was but they are rare now.

You can probably get a new frame from Bowser but they don't have any drivers left.

"BG Gameboy" has been parting out Docksides on eBay. Watch for a set of drivers there.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 10:46 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

Ok, but I thought Life Like and Bowser docksides were the same. However, I will definitely look for a Bowser dockside if that works.

Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

No, you need a Bowser dockside.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Apr 8, 2018, at 10:45 AM, bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi folks,
I have an old (1947) Varney Dockside. I installed a can motor and ran it very well to check out any issues. My plan was to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and a TCS WOW steam decoder in it. But, alas, it had a thump thump in it and I found out two things. 1. the frame slots were pretty worn. That may be fixable, but not easy. 2. The drivers were wobbly, meaning, not perpendicular to the axles. This caused a change in the distance for the coupling rods every revolution and was most likely the cause of the thump thump. I do not see how the drivers could be fixed. I am now looking for a donor dockside to see if I can get one without these issues. Additionally, I am aware that Varney sold its dies to Life Like and the Life Like dockside may be compatible to the old Varney dockside? If that is true, then, I should be able to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and Varney docksid e boiler on top of the Life Like chassis?
Does anyone know if that is possible, or do I need to search for a not totally worn out dockside donor?
Thanks and regards, Vic B.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26871	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/9/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

Hi Vic,

Some thoughts about your dockside........you could try making some bearing inserts out of thin brass which might help with the frame wear. The thumping may be due to drivers needing to be quartered.

regards, Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26872	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 4/9/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

Vic, hunt around for an old Varney frame. I am not at my California home, but I believe that I might have several from those years. Most have no wear, but….(but) an awful lot waddled because the frame slots were OEM not a tight fit for the 1/8” axle stock. If memory serves (it does not always these days), I believe that I shimmed my own Docksider axles decades ago with .002, or .003” brass shimming stock in this regard. Pretty easy.

My own cast metal Docksider (a 1946 gift to me) has been increased in weight by inserting the cast metal weight that was used in the molded plastic version. Some decades later, I further converted the locomotive to DCC with a Z scale decoder (keeping the DC61 motor) and adding lights, and without removing weight. A lot of brass detailing and CV valve gear have been added over the years, as well.

It sits on a roundhouse whisker track, and I eye it daily as a candidate for conversion to sound…… I probably will have to first install a NWSL conversion kit with can motor to generate the required space.

Sakura made a lovely model of this same locomotive, probably the best.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
307 Stanton Road
Quarryville, PA
17566

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26873	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/9/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

That is possible, I had not checked it. I will check the quarter with my NWSL quarterer. The frame is worn though, so I will look for one. No big rush.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of rh@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 11:23 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

Hi Vic,

Some thoughts about your dockside........you could try making some bearing inserts out of thin brass which might help with the frame wear. The thumping may be due to drivers needing to be quartered.

regards, Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26874	From: jimwatermanboeing	Date: 4/10/2018
Subject: Trackside Specialties O1-C kit - ebay auction

Just curious as to who won this one. As Vince Waterman's dad, (and looking for one of these for a while) I had the losing bid - would be curious to know who owns it. i have a couple of the P5 kits, but as you all know, there are more of those out there than the O-1.

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26875	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/11/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties O1-C kit - ebay auction

Attachments :

IMG_5140.PNG

IMG_5139.PNG

IMG_5012.JPG

Hi Jim W.,

Guilty as charged!

It's been about 16 years since I joined eBay expressly to find the Trackside Specialties PRR box cab locomotives - which I could never seem to find at any of the local North Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania train shows. I had absolutely no idea how few of each type were manufactured - or how difficult it would be to find them. According to Lenahan's, who you said received information direct from your dad, only 20 O-1c models were produced. (Jan Lorenzen who fabricated the brass parts and assembled the bodies for your father quoted me a figure of 15 from memory in an email about 15 years ago, but said he couldn't be sure, and I used that number until I found your reference posted here around 2015.)

I've told bits of the story here before, but will repeat it for our newer group members. As a young teen, I has seen the GG-1's but was fascinated by the drawings of the P-5a and O-1in the 1943 Model Railroader Cyclopedia which my dad had on his bookshelf - and which I had thumbed through since early childhood. I believe my dad won the volume as a prize in one of the early 1940s New York Society of Model Engineers annual model building contests.

Having never seen any of the larger PRR boxcab locomotives in operation, I was thrilled to see the B-1 during its final years of operation during our family trips to the 1964-1965 New York World's Fair while riding the #7 Subway line that curved high above Sunnyside yard and it's environs.

When your dad, Vincent Waterman's small ads began appearing in Railroad Model Craftsman, I was hooked. Back then, I liked and modeled the Pennsy, as my dad occasionally took us down to see trains pulled by GG-1's and E-44's along the main line on a Sunday afternoon. I had my Penn Line H9 and Brunswick green GG-1, and even sent for one of the Trackside Specialties catalogs.

That same year, my dad took me to a model railroad show sponsored by the Metropolitan Council of Model Railroad Clubs held in a church basement off of Route 46 in Parsippany, New Jersey. Unlike today's train shows which consist mainly of dealers selling their stock, this meet was focused on clinics, exhibitions of models and the showing of films.

However there were were one or two manufactures with items on display, including your dad - who had several of his box cab locomotive models on display. I thought that they were the coolest models ever. It should be noted that also in the room at the time was noted modeler Mike Pearsall was demonstrating his painting and weathering techniques on his tiny narrow-gauge locos that had just been featured in Model Railroader, and young Al Westerfield was demonstrating how to make castings out of Cerrobend alloys – according to the flier, "Al was slinging hot lead" well before he turned to resin casting and subsequent model manufacturing fame.

But your dad's box cab models topped them all.

Of course on my well under five dollar a month budget, they were unattainable. But I still had the catalog and my dreams. Lots of arm chair and Erie-DL&W-EL-NYS&W modeling during intervening decades and some rail fanning too, but a visit from a friend and a suggestion that we go to a then, very popular train show in Dover, NJ. prompted me to start looking for now "vintage" HO Scale models that I missed – specifically those by Trackside Specialties. Some of the older HO sellers were familiar with the models, but no one had seen any for years.

(My first "vintage" purchase was a circa 1939 cast bronze Walthers Alco Hi-hood 600 switcher - which was a dead ringer for DL&W's half dozen or so squared off units and a bit more to scale than the later cast lead models.)

Finally someone suggested eBay and I signed up; within the first year I spotted a P-5a, a professionally painted example that was part of an estate in Texas. Inexperienced with eBay bidding, I lost out in the final seconds for one that one sold for just over $200. I quickly emailed the seller and asked if he would photocopy the instructions for me which he agreed to do and then said that he would have a Trackside Specialties B-1 up for sale the following week. I make sure I won that one. It was not until 2010 that I found my first P-5a.

About nine years ago I got very close to an O-1c. It was a chance find on eBay listed by a general merchandise seller and it was simply listed as an O-1c model - Trackside Specialties name was not mentioned. But the photo, which is attached, showed parts for Trackside B-1 model, plus two extra pantographs and two O-1c pilot trucks. The box was an old white Mantua box from their brass old time passenger coaches with the familiar Trackside Specialties yellow tape on top with Trackside Specialties' classic large red rubber stamped name and address.

I'm not sure what might have happened over the intervening years with that model kit, possibly the modeler originally had both models and switched boxes, or lost most of the O-1c parts and combined what was left. The instructions were for the O-1c.

Unfortunately the seller said that was the only model he had and had no idea where it had come from, other he was from Cape May County, NJ and found locally. The O-1c I purchased last week was in an old religious greeting card box, so now I have both the original model and a proper TS box. I have just scanned the instructions and will get them to HO Seeker.

The last couple weeks on eBay was remarkable for Trackside Specialties collectors in that a P-5a was sold by the same seller of the O-1c one week before, and a of couple days ago, a B-1 sold for about $148, though it was not listed as a B-1 or Trackside Specialties model but as a :"0-6-0 brass switcher."

I've attached a photo of my previous find of the O-1c box with the B-1 and extra parts inside that I purchase circa 2010, as well as the recent sellers photos of the O-1c I purchased.

I sincerely hope that the story of my perseverance will inspire others not to give up on their collecting goals. In future posts, I'll tell how my search for Trackside Specialties models led to Meeting Jan Lorenzen (senior) of The Locomotive Workshop, who fabricated the brass box cab bodies and parts for your dad and how that led to his selling me the last "factory-fresh" B-1 box cab body circa 2002. I'll also tell a little about and show the parts I found for the L-6 and how a complete L-6 model got away from me (but hopefully to someone in our group) less than two years ago, buried in a lot of freight cars; also about the PRR HC-1 "parts collection."

In retrospect though, I think that the coolest part about my search for your dad's Trackside Specialties locomotives led decades later to a whole new phase of model railroading and collecting, and especially in meeting many new friends and being a part of this group.

W. Jay W.
Ps. Anyone have a spare L-6 body or just the etched brass body wrapper? A single L-6 body wrapper was sold on eBay over a dozen years ago and I somehow let that get out of my hands!

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 4/10/18, Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties O1-C kit - ebay auction
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2018, 10:24 AM

Just curious as to who won this one.
As Vince Waterman's dad, (and looking for one of these
for a while) I had the losing bid - would be curious to know
who owns it. i have a couple of the P5 kits, but as you all
know, there are more of those out there than the
O-1.
Jim Waterman

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263 --
#yiv4538242263ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mkp #yiv4538242263hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mkp #yiv4538242263ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mkp .yiv4538242263ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mkp .yiv4538242263ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mkp .yiv4538242263ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4538242263ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4538242263ygrp-lc #yiv4538242263hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4538242263ygrp-lc .yiv4538242263ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263activity span
.yiv4538242263underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4538242263 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4538242263 dd.yiv4538242263last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4538242263 dd.yiv4538242263last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4538242263 dd.yiv4538242263last p
span.yiv4538242263yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4538242263 div.yiv4538242263attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4538242263 div.yiv4538242263attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4538242263 div.yiv4538242263file-title a, #yiv4538242263
div.yiv4538242263file-title a:active, #yiv4538242263
div.yiv4538242263file-title a:hover, #yiv4538242263
div.yiv4538242263file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4538242263 div.yiv4538242263photo-title a,
#yiv4538242263 div.yiv4538242263photo-title a:active,
#yiv4538242263 div.yiv4538242263photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4538242263 div.yiv4538242263photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4538242263 div#yiv4538242263ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4538242263ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4538242263yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4538242263 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4538242263 .yiv4538242263replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4538242263 input, #yiv4538242263 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4538242263
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4538242263logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-msg
p#yiv4538242263attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-reco
#yiv4538242263reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-sponsor #yiv4538242263ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-sponsor #yiv4538242263ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-sponsor #yiv4538242263ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4538242263 #yiv4538242263ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4538242263

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26876	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/11/2018
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside

I will be watching for a frame.

Thanks, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 4:20 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

The guy that sells the Dockside parts on eBay also has the frames sometimes. You just have to watch.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 1:13 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

Yes, I looked up the Bowser web site and found the info. They do have the old style drivers, but no gear. The frame that is available is the new style and probably won't work, besides, I would have to try to get all of the gear box and gear parts as well. I think I will just look for another Varney dockside with a good frame and drivers. There is a guy on eBay selling the drivers, so I may go with that and see if I can machine the frame to use Mantua bearings if all else fails.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 3:05 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

The LifeLike and Bowser Docksides ARE NOT THE SAME!

The Bowser (English) Dockside is probably the best there was but they are rare now.

You can probably get a new frame from Bowser but they don't have any drivers left.

"BG Gameboy" has been parting out Docksides on eBay. Watch for a set of drivers there.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 10:46 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

Ok, but I thought Life Like and Bowser docksides were the same. However, I will definitely look for a Bowser dockside if that works.

Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2018 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside

No, you need a Bowser dockside.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Apr 8, 2018, at 10:45 AM, bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi folks,
I have an old (1947) Varney Dockside. I installed a can motor and ran it very well to check out any issues. My plan was to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and a TCS WOW steam decoder in it. But, alas, it had a thump thump in it and I found out two things. 1. the frame slots were pretty worn. That may be fixable, but not easy. 2. The drivers were wobbly, meaning, not perpendicular to the axles. This caused a change in the distance for the coupling rods every revolution and was most likely the cause of the thump thump. I do not see how the drivers could be fixed. I am now looking for a donor dockside to see if I can get one without these issues. Additionally, I am aware that Varney sold its dies to Life Like and the Life Like dockside may be compatible to the old Varney dockside? If that is true, then, I should be able to install the Central Valley valve gear kit and Varney docksid e boiler on top of the Life Like chassis?
Does anyone know if that is possible, or do I need to search for a not totally worn out dockside donor?
Thanks and regards, Vic B.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26877	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 4/12/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties O1-C kit - ebay auction

Jay - I should have known! I imagine you bid to win, I put up what I
thought was a pretty good price for it and you had the next highest bid
increment. Maybe someday - if you don't corner the market for them!

Still looking for a B-1 as well.

If you remember Jim Heckard, he owns (or owned) 2 different P5's (one
with the INternational mechanism and an Andico), a nice O1 and a B1. I
took pictures of each of them when I visited a few years ago. If you're
still out Jim, I salute you!

He said that when the time came to sell his vintage HO collection, the
TS engines would be the very last to go.

I was able to pick up 2 P-5A kits, neither is built, both unmolested and
complete. The last one went pretty cheap - wish I had known about the
recent B-1. You owe me one!

Great set of stories. I knew Jan and his family very well, we spent a
lot of time together at each of our shops, and at shows. The San
Francisco NMRA national was memorable as were Miami in 67. He was a very
clever guy. Might have to reproduce those photengraved shells and the
brass ends! Mechanisms might be a challenge unless there is something
that is close to matching in wheel diameter and spacing.

By the way, there was only 1 L-6A and it was a pilot model, shell wasn't
even attached. There was only one mechanism, but there were a bunch of
the side frame castings made. I remember my dad was selling them off to
folks who were going to 'improve' the Alco Models L6A, replacing the
coined brass sideframes with his better detailed set. So I believe that
there were as many as 30 sets of those out there somewhere. If I ever
got a set, I might just modify my Alco Models engine.

For me, I took a foray into building Standard Gauge (the prewar Lionel
wide gauge) locomotives and passenger cars, somewhat toyish, but 3D
printed a K4 boiler and Keisel trucks and working on the high side
tender. I also picked up a unique 'O-1', a gold colored loco that was in
the movie 'John Goldfarb Please Come Home', a very poor comedy from the
60's. It's covered with fake jewels. Peter Ustinov plays the part of a
rich Arab king, and very early in the movie, my loco makes it's
appearance, smoking and sparking down the track. Still has the black
smoke stain on one side. Maybe I can shrink it down to HO size. Gonna
build a P5 in that scale too, and have printed a gg1 shell (over 30"
long), and working on a drive for that.

Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26878	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/13/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Attachments :

Hi Jim W., (and All),

Good to hear from you. Sometimes when one hard to find locomotive is sold on eBay, another soon appears, so let's hope you get your O-1c soon!

The Trackside Specialties L-6:

My use of the figure of 3 TS L-6's produced is per Lenihan's, who I understood received the figures from your dad. If there was only one, and it was only partially assembled, then possibly the one pictured as an attachment here, is it. It was sold on eBay two years ago as part of a lot of boxcars for, as I recall $14.99. I sincerely hope someone here purchased it and knows that Trackside Specialties manufactured it, and what a major find they have.

It was part of the sale of many electric locomotives which included a large number of PRR stock. Many of them were submerged in water for a while and had significant tarnishing and corrosion. Sadly, I had even seen the active listing for the group of "boxcars" and skipped over it and did not look at the seller's other photos as the lead photo was an ordinary used, nondescript box car. That "hurt" when something prompted me to review everything in the sale, including just completed sales, after I found other Trackside Specialties parts listed.

I am curious as to what type of frame was used to power the L-6. Without much research, I would assume a 62 inch drivered Mikado frame would suffice for "the standard real world of the world," , but the one in the photograph looks like it has 57 inch GG-1 drivers. Curiously, the frame pictured in the large portion of the photo also attached shows that each of the four axles was geared. That's a bit unusual in my book. Can anyone tell us if that was a stock frame from some other manufacturers four axle locomotive?

I did make another find in that estate sale though, and that was a group of L-6 parts, including the beautifully cast sideframes and pilot truck side frames, cabs, imported pilot trucks and pantographs, all shown in the third photograph. Now I know these were part of the approximately 30 sets that were produced.

The best news is that they were actually TWO sets of L-6 and pilot truck side frames in the parts bag. So one pair of the main side frames and four of the small pilot truck side frames will be on their way to you, gratis, as I can't think of anyone who deserves to have them more than you. I will contact you offline through email for your address.

BTW. If anyone in our group has a Trackside Specialties L-6 etched flat brass box cab body- i'm interested!

I'll talk about the B-1 more tomorrow including photos of the submerged one that was rescued and cleaned. And yes, I owe you one, B-1!

Jay

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 4/12/18, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties O1-C kit - ebay auction
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2018, 7:58 PM

Jay - I should have known! I imagine you bid to
win, I put up what I

thought was a pretty good price for it and you had the next
highest bid

increment. Maybe someday - if you don't corner the
market for them!

Still looking for a B-1 as well.

If you remember Jim Heckard, he owns (or owned) 2 different
P5's (one

with the INternational mechanism and an Andico), a nice O1
and a B1. I

took pictures of each of them when I visited a few years
ago. If you're

still out Jim, I salute you!

He said that when the time came to sell his vintage HO
collection, the

TS engines would be the very last to go.

I was able to pick up 2 P-5A kits, neither is built, both
unmolested and

complete. The last one went pretty cheap - wish I had known
about the

recent B-1. You owe me one!

Great set of stories. I knew Jan and his family very well,
we spent a

lot of time together at each of our shops, and at shows. The
San

Francisco NMRA national was memorable as were Miami in 67.
He was a very

clever guy. Might have to reproduce those photengraved
shells and the

brass ends! Mechanisms might be a challenge unless there is
something

that is close to matching in wheel diameter and spacing.

By the way, there was only 1 L-6A and it was a pilot model,
shell wasn't

even attached. There was only one mechanism, but there were
a bunch of

the side frame castings made. I remember my dad was selling
them off to

folks who were going to 'improve' the Alco Models
L6A, replacing the

coined brass sideframes with his better detailed set. So I
believe that

there were as many as 30 sets of those out there somewhere.
If I ever

got a set, I might just modify my Alco Models engine.

For me, I took a foray into building Standard Gauge (the
prewar Lionel

wide gauge) locomotives and passenger cars, somewhat toyish,
but 3D

printed a K4 boiler and Keisel trucks and working on the
high side

tender. I also picked up a unique 'O-1', a gold
colored loco that was in

the movie 'John Goldfarb Please Come Home', a very
poor comedy from the

60's. It's covered with fake jewels. Peter Ustinov
plays the part of a

rich Arab king, and very early in the movie, my loco makes
it's

appearance, smoking and sparking down the track. Still has
the black

smoke stain on one side. Maybe I can shrink it down to HO
size. Gonna

build a P5 in that scale too, and have printed a gg1 shell
(over 30"

long), and working on a drive for that.

Jim

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371 --
#yiv0721410371ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371ygrp-mkp #yiv0721410371hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371ygrp-mkp #yiv0721410371ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371ygrp-mkp .yiv0721410371ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371ygrp-mkp .yiv0721410371ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371ygrp-mkp .yiv0721410371ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0721410371ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0721410371ygrp-lc #yiv0721410371hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0721410371ygrp-lc .yiv0721410371ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0721410371 #yiv0721410371activity span
.yiv0721410371underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0721410371 .yiv0721410371attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0721410371 .yiv0721410371attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0721410371 .yiv0721410371attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0721410371 .yiv0721410371attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0721410371 .yiv0721410371attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0721410371 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0721410371 .yiv0721410371bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0721410371 .yiv0721410371bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0721410371 dd.yiv0721410371last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}
{
margin-right:0;}

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26879	From: jimwatermanboeing	Date: 4/14/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Jay,

As I recall, the prototype frame was made by Andico, custom made, might have used the Penn Line GG1 drivers since we had a load of them. But as I recall, it was solid brass, similar construction to the one you have in the O1 and the P5, and yes, there was a spur gear train to power all four axles.
Conversely, the B1 used Penn line parts for the gearbox and drivers.

I remember your story on the wet B1 - it came up great as I recall.
I'm glad you got the O1, my miss, but I think you've been searching longer than I. At one time, I was satisfied with only one of my dad's kits or engines.

And thanks for the L6 parts - I will need to figure out how to draw it up as Jan Lorensen did in the late 60's and see if I can't reproduce it. We might have to fudge on the mechanism a little, and don't remember the lead trucks, but think there was another unique lost wax casting for the side frames.

Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26880	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 4/15/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Jay,

I found my dad's hand written corrections sent to Lenihan on corrections
to cat 1002:

B1:1972 - 50 pcs.using GG1 mechanism, sold a 'semi-kit'. Jan Lorensen
worked under contract, 'Loco Workshop' not yet formed.

He also noted that the Castor Plastics B1 used Famaco dies to mold the
shell in plastic, but it was too light.

O1c - 20Pcs - 1970 (I thought it was earlier, but it's his notes)
-photoengraved shell/lost wax castings/Andeco mechanism

P5A - 18pcs - 1968 with International Model Products mechanism

40 pcs - 1969 with Andeco mechanisms.

Jim Heckard has/had one of each lot in his collection.

L6 - 1970 - I pc - run cancelled when Alco Models released their brass
L6A.(I can remember the pilot model and the 30 sets of castings, Andeco
got too expensive for the mechanism by that point and the market
'evaporated' with the imported model.). I do have one of the Alco Models
locos.

FF2 - 1970 - 3 pcs. Max Gray model modified from GN Y1 model to better
represent what PRR did when they got them.

On the steam front:

HC1 - 1966-67 - Penn Line mechanisms from H9 and single Pittman DC71
motor. 21 made and one special w/Varney steam chests.

A3 - 4 pcs - Not sure what the genesis of these were, probably modified
from something else

B8a - 4 pcs - this was the B6 modified into the tank engines that were
used around engine terminals. I can remember a very nice custom painted
loco - was a nice model.

N2sa - modified from Gem USRA 2-10-2 - no quantities specified, but
probably single digits 1968

N1s - TS did 'mix and match' with Cary boiler, noteworthy is kit sold
with TS photoengraved tenders 1968-69

I note that some of the changes made the Cat 1003, but not all (like the
L6 info). But since the cab ends, railings, pilot castings are common,
having the side frames is a good start on a pseudo TS engine. I want to
look at the Alco Models engine and decide if modifying that is close
enough, since it too has the photoengraved cab.

Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26881	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/15/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Hi Jim W.,

I'm just catching up on my emails, I was away from the PC for a day plus. The fact that the PRR B-1 used the same drivers and axle spacing as the GG-1 makes the "drivetrain" restoration of the little boxcab very simple. Penn line/Bowser parts are plentiful, as are GG-1's in good condition. The only work required after removing the powered truck and side frames from the GG-1 is to measure and hacksaw off the pilot and lead truck extension.

Jim, I just had a thought. I know Jan Lorenzen's son Jan from the NYC modelers group and could ask him if the original drawings/negatives still exist. We could then have a few more wrappers etched, but adding an insignificant mark somewhere to denote the second run. For the mechanism – would have to figure something out. The only extra exterior parts that I do not yet have are the end sill/platform castings. What do you think?

Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26882	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/15/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Attachments :

Jim W., I forgot to attach this photo to my last reply a few minutes ago. The beautifully detailed pilot truck side frames are in the lower center of the photograph. You will be getting those as well, along with the major side frame castings. Jay W.

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 4/14/18, Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, April 14, 2018, 6:33 AM

Jay,

As I recall,
the prototype frame was made by Andico, custom made, might
have used the Penn Line GG1 drivers since we had a load of
them. But as I recall, it was solid brass, similar
construction to the one you have in the O1 and the P5, and
yes, there was a spur gear train to power all four axles.

Conversely, the B1 used Penn line parts for
the gearbox and drivers.

I
remember your story on the wet B1 - it came up great as I
recall.
I'm glad you got the O1, my
miss, but I think you've been searching longer than I.
At one time, I was satisfied with only one of my dad's
kits or engines.

And thanks
for the L6 parts - I will need to figure out how to draw it
up as Jan Lorensen did in the late 60's and see if I
can't reproduce it. We might have to fudge on the
mechanism a little, and don't remember the lead trucks,
but think there was another unique lost wax casting for the
side frames.

Jim

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266 --
#yiv2024250266ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mkp #yiv2024250266hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mkp #yiv2024250266ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mkp .yiv2024250266ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mkp .yiv2024250266ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mkp .yiv2024250266ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2024250266ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2024250266ygrp-lc #yiv2024250266hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2024250266ygrp-lc .yiv2024250266ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266activity span
.yiv2024250266underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2024250266 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2024250266 dd.yiv2024250266last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2024250266 dd.yiv2024250266last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2024250266 dd.yiv2024250266last p
span.yiv2024250266yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv2024250266 div.yiv2024250266attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2024250266 div.yiv2024250266attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv2024250266 div.yiv2024250266file-title a, #yiv2024250266
div.yiv2024250266file-title a:active, #yiv2024250266
div.yiv2024250266file-title a:hover, #yiv2024250266
div.yiv2024250266file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2024250266 div.yiv2024250266photo-title a,
#yiv2024250266 div.yiv2024250266photo-title a:active,
#yiv2024250266 div.yiv2024250266photo-title a:hover,
#yiv2024250266 div.yiv2024250266photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2024250266 div#yiv2024250266ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv2024250266ygrp-msg p a span.yiv2024250266yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv2024250266 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv2024250266 .yiv2024250266replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv2024250266 input, #yiv2024250266 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv2024250266
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-mlmsg #yiv2024250266logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-msg
p#yiv2024250266attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-reco
#yiv2024250266reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-sponsor #yiv2024250266ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-sponsor #yiv2024250266ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-sponsor #yiv2024250266ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv2024250266 #yiv2024250266ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv2024250266

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26883	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 4/16/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Relative to the prototype, the Varney GG-1 was significantly short, as was the wheelbase of the three- axled power trucks as well. How would this translate to the proposed B-1 model power transplant?

BTW, the single surviving PRR B-1 at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania is on the docket for a premium-class restoration update, following on the heels of their just completed restoration of their PRR 460 4-4-2, arguably the finest and most thoughtful yet of such restorations- fit for many generations into posterity.

BTW, I always loved the Varney GG-1s. They did a fine job, despite the shortening. A major downside was that the OEM Pittman motors drew several amps each, and when you MU’s two of them (as I did routinely), things started heating up.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
307 Stanton Road
Quarryville, PA
17566

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26884	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 4/17/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Hey Denny - didn't know you lived in PA!

The Trackside Specialties B1 model used the Penn Line GG1 gearbox and
wheels, a pretty good fit. Jay W found a photo of the prototype
Trackside Specialites L6, which also used PL GG1 drivers but with a
custom machined gearbox. May have used different worm wheels on the
axles than the PL one, but same axles and wheels.

By the way, still have your Varney Streamliner made up as a Milwaukee F7.

Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26885	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/17/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Attachments :

Hi Denny,

I've been thinking a bit about your post regarding the less then scale length of the Penn Line/Varney GG-1 and offer two separate ideas to consider.

First, regarding the less than scale length of the admittedly otherwise great Penn Line/Varney GG-1. As a teen I compared it to the scale drawing in the '43 MR Cyclopedia and noticed the length was correct for the 1/8" to the foot scale elevation. So PL selectively compressed it - or at least the length, while keeping the elegant lines of the prototype locomotive.

But I am not sure if they, PL, selectively compressed the dimensions of the articulated underframes or simply kept that driver portion to HO scale and simply shortened the distance between the pilot truck center and drivers.

Either way, given the relatively short wheelbase of the drivers and applying the percentage difference between HO scale and 1/8" to the foot scale, the visible difference would be almost negligible. I have not noticed a difference between the cast journals on the B-1 side frames and the PL GG-1 chassis axle centers, but will look again with that. In mind. Perhaps someone can pull out their models, make some measurements and tell us for sure.

My second thought is something that I have not mentioned here before. The Trackside Specialties brass B-1 side frames are beautifully detailed and almost mirror images of each other from left to right side. Except that is, for two different body mounting tabs, one on each side. During the past year, I noticed a late 1940s Fomoko B-1 kit for sale on eBay – I do not have one – and was surprised to see the exact same mounting tabs!

This prompted the question, did Jon Lorenzen use the Fomoco side frames as the basis or starting point for the TS B-1? I saved the photo of that Famoco kit and was going to do a visual comparison of its and the TS – B1 sideframes, but have miss-placed that eBay screen cap.

At any rate, attached are two handy views of the TS B-1 model that I purchased off of eBay about two years ago – the one that was immersed in water for a while. The second view, shows how the body cleaned up nicely.

W. Jay W.

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 4/17/18, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2018, 7:59 AM

Hey Denny - didn't know you lived in PA!

The Trackside Specialties B1 model used the Penn Line GG1
gearbox and

wheels, a pretty good fit. Jay W found a photo of the
prototype

Trackside Specialites L6, which also used PL GG1 drivers but
with a

custom machined gearbox. May have used different worm wheels
on the

axles than the PL one, but same axles and wheels.

By the way, still have your Varney Streamliner made up as a
Milwaukee F7.

Jim

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007 --
#yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp #yiv4154598007hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp #yiv4154598007ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp .yiv4154598007ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp .yiv4154598007ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp .yiv4154598007ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4154598007ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4154598007ygrp-lc #yiv4154598007hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4154598007ygrp-lc .yiv4154598007ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span
.yiv4154598007underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 dd.yiv4154598007last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 dd.yiv4154598007last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 dd.yiv4154598007last p
span.yiv4154598007yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007file-title a, #yiv4154598007
div.yiv4154598007file-title a:active, #yiv4154598007
div.yiv4154598007file-title a:hover, #yiv4154598007
div.yiv4154598007file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007photo-title a,
#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007photo-title a:active,
#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 div#yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4154598007ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4154598007yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4154598007 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4154598007 input, #yiv4154598007 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4154598007
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4154598007logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-msg
p#yiv4154598007attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-reco
#yiv4154598007reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor #yiv4154598007ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor #yiv4154598007ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor #yiv4154598007ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4154598007

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26886	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/17/2018
Subject: Hobbytown & Cary GN E-7's

Attachments :

Hi All,

I realize that not everyone is into Trackside Specialties boxcabs, so here's another acquisition during the past year, a hobbytown of Boston E-7 A unit, beautifully detailed and painted in classic Great Northern livery and a matching set of original Cary (not Bowser) E-7 A units with hobbytown of Boston multi drive. done in the same scheme by the same builder.

For a number of years I have been looking for vintage hobbytown E-7's to power my complete set of American beauty Empire builder full length passenger cars, and I finally found them! Now to build the other half of the A.B. cars ( about half what already completed in a train show purchase from about seven or eight years ago) and bring the whole consist over to my buddies large layout and make a video.

I was curious as to the builder of the consist and asked the seller to tell me more about the models - as many other vintage and resend GN models were available.

The seller, (and builders son) Ted Hoffman wrote, "It was my dad that had built them, Larry Hoffman NMRA Member 38763. He passed away several years ago and really enjoyed his hobby with HO trains for many years. My mother was secretary for the Great Northern Railway Historical Society for many years, and they were both avid enthusiasts and collectors of Great Northern Railroadiana and of course his modeling of the Great Northern Railway."

I've printed out a copy of his reply and placed it in each of the locomotives boxes. A point worth checking into whenever a unique or interesting vintage model is purchased -, ask the seller some questions about the model – sometimes it leads to interesting stories and it's a cool way to honor the modelers effort by connecting it with the Model for perhaps even another generation.

There was also a cast Zamac Varney A-B-B-A F-3 set an Empire Builder colors being sold as well – did anyone hear purchase it?

W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26887	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/17/2018
Subject: Re: Hobbytown & Cary GN E-7's

Attachments :

NICE!

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:47 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown & Cary GN E-7's

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26888	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/17/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Concerning the less than scale length of the Penn Line/Varney GG1 (and I believe also, the Famoco GG1), I'd only like to add that the prototype GG1 is 79.5' long -- with the carbody being 76' - 8 3/16" long. As we know, 1:87 scale equals 1' being 0.138 " in H0 scale. Working with the model carbody, which is easy to take a measurement of, qand taking this proportion it should be about 10.58 " long if it were to be to exact scale. These models' carbodies though, are only 9 1/2 (9.5") long, which is just short of 69' in prototypical measurement. At a scale 7+ feet short of what it really should be, this compression still fits my criteria for a fine looking model, with the "eloquent" lines of the prototype being kept.

The width and height dimension of these models are extremely close in scale to those of the prototype, however. The prototype GG1 is 10.4' wide, scaling out to be 1.43" wide in H0. These models measure exactly 1 7/16" (1.4375") wide. The prototype's height is 15' over the rails, with the pantographs down, equating to 2.07" in H0 scale; these models are close to that in scale height.

The only remaining dimension needing to be looked at is the overall length of the GG1, including the underframes. The prototype measures 79.5' long between coupler pulling surfaces, as the length of the loco including its frames. This would equate to an H0 model having to be 10.97" long, with its frames, yet with the carbody of these models being only 9.5" long (a difference of 1.47"), we know that these underframes don't extend out from the carbody nearly 3/4" (0.735") at both ends -- or a scale 5' 5" -- to be the full 10.97" long it would need to be, so again the underframes of these models have been laterally compressed to better match the shortened carbody, if that's the concern (as I understand it).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/17/2018 1:21:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Denny,

I've been thinking a bit about your post regarding the less then scale length of the Penn Line/Varney GG-1 and offer two separate ideas to consider.

First, regarding the less than scale length of the admittedly otherwise great Penn Line/Varney GG-1. As a teen I compared it to the scale drawing in the '43 MR Cyclopedia and noticed the length was correct for the 1/8" to the foot scale elevation. So PL selectively compressed it - or at least the length, while keeping the elegant lines of the prototype locomotive.

But I am not sure if they, PL, selectively compressed the dimensions of the articulated underframes or simply kept that driver portion to HO scale and simply shortened the distance between the pilot truck center and drivers.

Either way, given the relatively short wheelbase of the drivers and applying the percentage difference between HO scale and 1/8" to the foot scale, the visible difference would be almost negligible. I have not noticed a difference between the cast journals on the B-1 side frames and the PL GG-1 chassis axle centers, but will look again with that. In mind. Perhaps someone can pull out their models, make some measurements and tell us for sure.

My second thought is something that I have not mentioned here before. The Trackside Specialties brass B-1 side frames are beautifully detailed and almost mirror images of each other from left to right side. Except that is, for two different body mounting tabs, one on each side. During the past year, I noticed a late 1940s Fomoko B-1 kit for sale on eBay – I do not have one – and was surprised to see the exact same mounting tabs!

This prompted the question, did Jon Lorenzen use the Fomoco side frames as the basis or starting point for the TS B-1? I saved the photo of that Famoco kit and was going to do a visual comparison of its and the TS – B1 sideframes, but have miss-placed that eBay screen cap.

At any rate, attached are two handy views of the TS B-1 model that I purchased off of eBay about two years ago – the one that was immersed in water for a while. The second view, shows how the body cleaned up nicely.

W. Jay W.

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/17/18, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2018, 7:59 AM

Hey Denny - didn't know you lived in PA!

The Trackside Specialties B1 model used the Penn Line GG1
gearbox and

wheels, a pretty good fit. Jay W found a photo of the
prototype

Trackside Specialites L6, which also used PL GG1 drivers but
with a

custom machined gearbox. May have used different worm wheels
on the

axles than the PL one, but same axles and wheels.

By the way, still have your Varney Streamliner made up as a
Milwaukee F7.

Jim

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007 --
#yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp #yiv4154598007hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp #yiv4154598007ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp .yiv4154598007ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp .yiv4154598007ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mkp .yiv4154598007ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4154598007ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4154598007ygrp-lc #yiv4154598007hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4154598007ygrp-lc .yiv4154598007ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007activity span
.yiv4154598007underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 dd.yiv4154598007last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 dd.yiv4154598007last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 dd.yiv4154598007last p
span.yiv4154598007yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007file-title a, #yiv4154598007
div.yiv4154598007file-title a:active, #yiv4154598007
div.yiv4154598007file-title a:hover, #yiv4154598007
div.yiv4154598007file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007photo-title a,
#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007photo-title a:active,
#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4154598007 div.yiv4154598007photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 div#yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4154598007ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4154598007yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4154598007 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4154598007 .yiv4154598007replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4154598007 input, #yiv4154598007 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4154598007
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4154598007logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-msg
p#yiv4154598007attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-reco
#yiv4154598007reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor #yiv4154598007ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor #yiv4154598007ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-sponsor #yiv4154598007ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4154598007 #yiv4154598007ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4154598007

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26889	From: sean naylor	Date: 4/30/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties unique L-6, (and the O-1c)

Really good stuff Jim!

Sincerely,

Sean

~~~sent from my iPhone.~~~

On Apr 15, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Jay,

I found my dad's hand written corrections sent to Lenihan on corrections
to cat 1002:

B1:1972 - 50 pcs.using GG1 mechanism, sold a 'semi-kit'. Jan Lorensen
worked under contract, 'Loco Workshop' not yet formed.

He also noted that the Castor Plastics B1 used Famaco dies to mold the
shell in plastic, but it was too light.

O1c - 20Pcs - 1970 (I thought it was earlier, but it's his notes)
-photoengraved shell/lost wax castings/Andeco mechanism

P5A - 18pcs - 1968 with International Model Products mechanism

40 pcs - 1969 with Andeco mechanisms.

Jim Heckard has/had one of each lot in his collection.

L6 - 1970 - I pc - run cancelled when Alco Models released their brass
L6A.(I can remember the pilot model and the 30 sets of castings, Andeco
got too expensive for the mechanism by that point and the market
'evaporated' with the imported model.). I do have one of the Alco Models
locos.

FF2 - 1970 - 3 pcs. Max Gray model modified from GN Y1 model to better
represent what PRR did when they got them.

On the steam front:

HC1 - 1966-67 - Penn Line mechanisms from H9 and single Pittman DC71
motor. 21 made and one special w/Varney steam chests.

A3 - 4 pcs - Not sure what the genesis of these were, probably modified
from something else

B8a - 4 pcs - this was the B6 modified into the tank engines that were
used around engine terminals. I can remember a very nice custom painted
loco - was a nice model.

N2sa - modified from Gem USRA 2-10-2 - no quantities specified, but
probably single digits 1968

N1s - TS did 'mix and match' with Cary boiler, noteworthy is kit sold
with TS photoengraved tenders 1968-69

I note that some of the changes made the Cat 1003, but not all (like the
L6 info). But since the cab ends, railings, pilot castings are common,
having the side frames is a good start on a pseudo TS engine. I want to
look at the Alco Models engine and decide if modifying that is close
enough, since it too has the photoengraved cab.

Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26890	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 4/30/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a (Old: unique L-6, (and the O-1c))

Attachments :

Jim, All,

RE:

      P5A - 18pcs - 1968 with International Model Products mechanism

              40 pcs - 1969 with Andeco mechanisms.

        Jim Heckard has/had one of each lot in his collection.

I miss talking to Jim. I tried calling him a couple times and received no response. One of the two numbers I have had even been disconnected. Has anyone heard anything from or about him?

Last night I bid on and was lucky enough to win the right to purchase what I am fairly certain to be a a Trackside Specialties P5a. (See the attached pics)

Is there any possible way to obtain the few parts it is missing? Does anyone happen to know which chassis this is? It does not look like the Andeco mechanism that is on my Schrader EP4 and that one is labeled Andeco.

Sincerely,

Sean

On Sunday, April 15, 2018, 7:33:43 AM EDT, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26891	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 4/30/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a (Old: unique L-6, (and the O-1c)) [4 A

Attachments :

I am not sure why, but all the images I attached were stripped off of my previous message. Been having trouble lately here. Two messages I sent here both bounced back as un-deliverable.

Sincerely,

Sean

On Monday, April 30, 2018, 10:18:29 AM EDT, Sean Naylor a69mustang4me@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below]

Jim, All,

RE:

      P5A - 18pcs - 1968 with International Model Products mechanism

              40 pcs - 1969 with Andeco mechanisms.

        Jim Heckard has/had one of each lot in his collection.

I miss talking to Jim. I tried calling him a couple times and received no response. One of the two numbers I have had even been disconnected. Has anyone heard anything from or about him?

Last night I bid on and was lucky enough to win the right to purchase what I am fairly certain to be a a Trackside Specialties P5a. (See the attached pics)

Sincerely,

Sean

On Sunday, April 15, 2018, 7:33:43 AM EDT, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26892	From: dale2680	Date: 4/30/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a (Old: unique L-6, (and the O-1c)) [4 A

I have also been having these problems with other Yahoo groups.  In fact this message was rejected when I tried to send it as an email response.  I hope it fares better sent from the groups website.  I think the platform is dying because no one is taking care of the servers.  I am sure the Oath announcement, if any, will be no more groups.  I moved the gilbertHOtrains group to groups.io with no trouble whatsoever and we are running flawlessly.  I would hate to see the vast store of knowledge that is in the archives of this group be lost by a sudden failure of Yahoo groups.  If the owners want to consider migrating the group, if for no other reason than as a backup of the archives, let me know as there are a few details that can make a big difference in how successful it is and how you can keep it within the free group parameters on groups.io.

Dale Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26893	From: dale2680	Date: 4/30/2018
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a (Old: unique L-6, (and the O-1c)) [4 A

Sorry about the run on line. I pasted the original message in on the website. At least it got through. Here it is hopefully in more readable form.

I have also been having these problems with other Yahoo groups. In fact this message was rejected when I tried to send it as an email response. I hope it fares better sent from the groups website. I think the platform is dying because no one is taking care of the servers. I am sure the Oath announcement, if any, will be no more groups. I moved the gilbertHOtrains group to groups.io with no trouble whatsoever and we are running flawlessly. I would hate to see the vast store of knowledge that is in the archives of this group be lost by a sudden failure of Yahoo groups. If the owners want to consider migrating the group, if for no other reason than as a backup of the archives, let me know as there are a few details that can make a big difference in how successful it is and how you can keep it within the free group parameters on groups.io.

Dale

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26894	From: rxensen	Date: 5/15/2018
Subject: Mantua Pacific

I want to change the drivers an old 1950 Mantua 4-6-2 locomotive to flanges that are closer to RP45

I now have alot of code 83 track and the flanges bump along and sometimes stop.

This may have been answered before, but I was unable to search for it.

Hopefully someone has done this.

Ron Christensen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26896	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/15/2018
Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific

The drivers from later Mantua and Tyco Pacifics with RP25 flanges will fit, I'm just not sure if the axle gear on the 50's version has the same number of teeth as the later ones. If not, the gear could be swapped out fairly easily using witness marks.

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26897	From: Dennis Kunkel	Date: 5/16/2018
Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific

Are these boxpok drivers or spoked drivers? I believe the earliest Mantua pacifics had spoked drivers. I'm not sure if the earliest drivers are interchangeable with the later boxpok drivers. Your engine probably has a gearbox and a black gear on the center driver. Since the center driver is blind, you can keep your existing center driver and just replace the two flanged drivers with later drivers having smaller flanges. I believe that the radius the side rods travel on is the same for all of the pacific drivers (at least all the boxpok ones). Driver sets for these engines come up with some regularity on eBay. I suggest just buying a driver set from a more recent engine with a white gear on the center driver and using the two flanged drivers. Note that a white gear does not necessarily mean that the drivers have smaller flanges - there are still large flanges on some of the driver sets with the white gear. Closely examine the eBay photos to get an idea of the flange size.

There are also later spoked drivers with smaller flanges for these engines, but they are relatively hard to find on eBay. These drivers were used when Mantua was selling more detailed versions of the pacific and charging over $100 for the engine.

Dennis Kunkel

From: "rxensen@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 6:04 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Pacific

I want to change the drivers an old 1950 Mantua 4-6-2 locomotive to flanges that are closer to RP45

I now have alot of code 83 track and the flanges bump along and sometimes stop.

This may have been answered before, but I was unable to search for it.

Hopefully someone has done this.

Ron Christensen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26898	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/31/2018
Subject: Old type Varney Dockside Frame

Attachments :

Hi Vic B., I noticed in Bowser's "Fire Sale" email received today, May 31, that they have 16 of "old style" Docksider frames for sale, Bowser part number 2-240 at $3.00 each. See attached screen cap of that part of the priceless. I'm not sure what they define as "old" but it might be worth a try. At that price, I might order one as well, as one never knows when it might prove handy. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26899	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 6/1/2018
Subject: Re: Old type Varney Dockside Frame [1 Attachment]

Hi Jay,

I couldn't see the photo of the frame. I also couldn't find the Bowser firesale. Yes, I would like to purchase one myself. Could you send me a link to the Bowser firesale please.

Thanks and regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 8:34 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26900	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 6/1/2018
Subject: Re: Old type Varney Dockside Frame

Hi Vic B. I did not realize that the "fire sale" does not appear on the Bowser website, but only as an email promotion to those on their email list. I have forwarded you a copy of the Bowser Fire Sale promotion email that I received to your email address. If for some reason you don't receive it, please let me know and I will send it again. Jay W.
--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 6/1/18, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:37 AM

Hi Jay,
I couldn't see
the photo of the frame. I also couldn't find the
Bowser firesale. Yes, I would like to purchase one
myself. Could you send me a link to the Bowser firesale
please.
Thanks and regards,
Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jay Wanczyk
the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 8:34 PM

To: yahoogroups

Subject: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame
[1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Jay
Wanczyk included
below]
Hi Vic B., I noticed in Bowser's "Fire
Sale" email received today, May 31, that they have 16
of "old style" Docksider frames for sale, Bowser
part number 2-240 at $3.00 each. See attached screen cap of
that part of the priceless. I'm not sure what they
define
as "old" but it might be worth a try. At that
price, I might order one as well, as one never knows when it
might prove handy. W. Jay W.

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685 --
#yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp #yiv0009141685hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp #yiv0009141685ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc #yiv0009141685hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc .yiv0009141685ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span
.yiv0009141685underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p
span.yiv0009141685yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685file-title a, #yiv0009141685
div.yiv0009141685file-title a:active, #yiv0009141685
div.yiv0009141685file-title a:hover, #yiv0009141685
div.yiv0009141685file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a,
#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:active,
#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div#yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0009141685ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0009141685yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0009141685 input, #yiv0009141685 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0009141685
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0009141685logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-msg
p#yiv0009141685attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-reco
#yiv0009141685reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor #yiv0009141685ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor #yiv0009141685ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor #yiv0009141685ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0009141685

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26901	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 6/1/2018
Subject: Re: Old type Varney Dockside Frame

Thanks very much Jay, I did receive it. Now I have to make my order list.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 11:30 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame

On Fri, 6/1/18, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:37 AM

Hi Jay,
I couldn't see
the photo of the frame. I also couldn't find the
Bowser firesale. Yes, I would like to purchase one
myself. Could you send me a link to the Bowser firesale
please.
Thanks and regards,
Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jay Wanczyk
the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 8:34 PM

To: yahoogroups

Subject: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame
[1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Jay
Wanczyk included
below]
Hi Vic B., I noticed in Bowser's "Fire
Sale" email received today, May 31, that they have 16
of "old style" Docksider frames for sale, Bowser
part number 2-240 at $3.00 each. See attached screen cap of
that part of the priceless. I'm not sure what they
define
as "old" but it might be worth a try. At that
price, I might order one as well, as one never knows when it
might prove handy. W. Jay W.

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685 --
#yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp #yiv0009141685hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp #yiv0009141685ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc #yiv0009141685hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc .yiv0009141685ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span
.yiv0009141685underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p
span.yiv0009141685yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685file-title a, #yiv0009141685
div.yiv0009141685file-title a:active, #yiv0009141685
div.yiv0009141685file-title a:hover, #yiv0009141685
div.yiv0009141685file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a,
#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:active,
#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div#yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0009141685ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0009141685yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0009141685 input, #yiv0009141685 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0009141685
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0009141685logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-msg
p#yiv0009141685attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-reco
#yiv0009141685reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor #yiv0009141685ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor #yiv0009141685ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor #yiv0009141685ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0009141685

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26902	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/2/2018
Subject: Re: Old type Varney Dockside Frame

Hi W.Jay W.,

As I don't see this Bowser Fire Sale on their website either, undoubtedly because I'm not on their mailing list, I had hoped to see you post this Bowser Fire Sale promotion email to the group. In any event, would you please ensure that I'll be able to receive it by any means -- either by message to the group or by email? I've missed out on previous Bowser Fire sales when they occurred, obviously now because I wasn't on their email list, but then, without my being unable to buy anything from their Fire Sale at the time, there was no way I'd be put on their list (unless I bought at full price when the sale was going on). Many thanks,

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 1, 2018 11:32 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame

On Fri, 6/1/18, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:37 AM

Hi Jay,
I couldn't see
the photo of the frame. I also couldn't find the
Bowser firesale. Yes, I would like to purchase one
myself. Could you send me a link to the Bowser firesale
please.
Thanks and regards,
Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jay Wanczyk
the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 8:34 PM

To: yahoogroups

Subject: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame
[1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Jay
Wanczyk included
below]
Hi Vic B., I noticed in Bowser's "Fire
Sale" email received today, May 31, that they have 16
of "old style" Docksider frames for sale, Bowser
part number 2-240 at $3.00 each. See attached screen cap of
that part of the priceless. I'm not sure what they
define
as "old" but it might be worth a try. At that
price, I might order one as well, as one never knows when it
might prove handy. W. Jay W.

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685 --
#yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp #yiv0009141685hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp #yiv0009141685ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc #yiv0009141685hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc .yiv0009141685ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span
.yiv0009141685underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p
span.yiv0009141685yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685file-title a, #yiv0009141685
div.yiv0009141685file-title a:active, #yiv0009141685
div.yiv0009141685file-title a:hover, #yiv0009141685
div.yiv0009141685file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a,
#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:active,
#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:hover,
#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div#yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv0009141685ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0009141685yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv0009141685 input, #yiv0009141685 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv0009141685
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0009141685logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-msg
p#yiv0009141685attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-reco
#yiv0009141685reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor #yiv0009141685ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor #yiv0009141685ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor #yiv0009141685ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv0009141685

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26903	From: david vartanoff	Date: 6/2/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3992

Gents, could you post a link? or perhaps the text?

TIA

On 06/02/2018 04:36 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

2b

Re: Old type Varney Dockside Frame

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26904	From: rcjge	Date: 6/2/2018
Subject: Looking for Varney Docksider Steam chests/cylinders?

Hey Guys,

Anyone have the METAL Varney Steam chests/Cylinders to trade or sell?

Part# 1553

Need to complete one...

Thanks,

Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26905	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 6/2/2018
Subject: Bowser 5.31.18 Fire Sale List

Hi Ray W., and All, Since the Bowser Fire Sale list is just a simple email to those on the regular company mailing list and not linked to their website, I am copying the list and pasting it into this message. It's the best I could do from my phone as I am not near my PC or laptop. The only items that did not copy are the logo and a few tiny illustrations. Hope this helps. W. Jay W.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bowser News Letter

FIRE SALE

Sale Terms
Dealers and Public Orders Welcome
Payment Due When Ordering

Order By PHONE, EMAIL or Fax Only

Lots of Discontinued items being offered at Net Only Sale Pricing

These items are New Old Stock or Left Over items found in our ware house. REMAN Items are items returned to us with either minor imperfections or mechanical issues which have been repaired but can but we can no longer sell as new. These items may have shelf worn boxes and or remaining body shell defects. They all have been run tested and work correctly.

All Sales Final no Returns

ALL ITEMS SOLD - AS IS
NO EXCEPTIONS
NO WARRANTIES EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.

Limited Quantities Available
All items are discontinued when sold out.
No hold orders or back orders

All Orders By

Phone
1-800-327-5126
570-368-2379

Fax
570-368-5046

or Email
sales@...

These items are not offered on line.

Payment information and shipping details must be provided with order.

PN Description NET QTY
2-201 Circuit Board Plug 2 Wire Female PK 10 $2.00 83
2-202 Micro LED Surface Mount PK 20 $2.50 86
2-203 Micro Electric Switch PK20 $5.00 180
2-206 DC Can Motor 12V 1.125 x 1.750 - .090 x .500 Shaft $2.00 1864
2-224 O Roadrailer Body only Scratch and Dent Various Roads $2.00 711
2-225 O Highway Trailer Body only Scratch and Dent Various Roads $2.00 115
2-234 DC77 Motor w/ Worm for old Dockside Loco $5.00 8
2-240 HO Dockside Frame old Style Painted $3.00 16
2-249 HO Spun Brass Boiler Tube NKP Loco's $20.00 5
2-250 HO Spun Brass Boiler Tube C&O Loco's $20.00 8
2-253 DC Motor Turn Table Replacement Motor with Gear $15.00 36
2-332 HO Bowser 10th Ed Reference Manual $2.00 1
2-333 HO Bowser 9th Ed Reference Manual $2.00 1
2-337 HO Bowser 7th Ed Reference Manual $2.00 1
2-342 HO Bowser Athearn Parts Catalog 1979 $2.00 15
2-369 HO Bowser Casey Jones RTR Body Only with Details $30.00 6
2-375 HO Bowser E-6 Bodies painted with details $25.00 2
2-411 HO Bowser USRA Mountain Boiler Painted with Details $45.00 6
2-413 HO Bowser USRA Mountain Boiler Painted with Details $45.00 5
2-416 HO Bowser L-1 Boiler with Details $45.00 7
2-417 HO Bowser BB- Challenger Pilot Assembly $20.00 23
2-418 HO Bowser M1 Mountain Boiler Painted with Details $45.00 5
2-419 HO Bowser Northern Boilers with Varying Details $45.00 10
2-435 HO Bowser Challenger Front and Rear Frame Sets $12.00 20
2-436 HO Bowser Improved I-1 Frame and Cylinder $30.00 42
2-457 HO Bowser Die Cast PCC Body Painted $10.00 58
2-467 HO Bowser Brill Die Cast Dummy Chassis $12.00 1
2-468 HO Bowser IRR Trolly Die Cast Partial Chassis $10.00 34
2-477 HO Bowser Brill Trolley Floor Die Cast $5.00 37
2-542 HO Cary NOS E6-B Body Kit in Box $25.00 2
2-544 HO Cary NOS E7-B Body Kit in Box $25.00 1
2-550 HO Cary NOS FT-B Body Kit in Box $20.00 1
2-571 O Passenger Car Lounge Chair White Metal Casting $1.50 73
2-573 O Cast Metal Box Car Single Door assortment 8pcs $8.00 1
2-574 O Cast Metal Box Car Ends each $2.00 38
2-576 O Cast Metal Double Box Car Doors $3.00 9
2-581 HO Cary SW1500 Body Kit $15.00 1
2-583 HO Misc Cary Diesel Castings $15.00 1
2-588 HO Cary F Unit Metal Body Casting $7.00 1

2-593 HO 40ft Box Car Body and Doors PRR $3.00 3
2-610 HO Turntable Drive Wheel Clamp New Style $15.00 1
2-611 HO Turntable Bridge Bogie New Style Diecast each $15.00 12
2-906 00-90 X 3/16 SCREW Philister 100pcs $5.00 31
2-23129 Body Only HO GE U25B PH2 N&W Hamburger Cab #3524 $15.00 1
2-23379 Body Only HO GE U25B Frisco #825 $15.00 9
2-23381 Body Only HO GE U25B Frisco #828 $15.00 12
2-23389 Body Only HO GE U25B Conrail #2596 $15.00 2
2-23576 REMAN HO C636 Illinois Central #1100 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 1
2-23578 REMAN HO C636 Illinois Central #1105 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 1
2-23584 REMAN HO C636 Penn Central #6344 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 1
2-23602 REMAN HO C636 BN w/o SG #4368 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 2
2-23603 REMAN HO ALCo C636 BN w/snow guard #4360 $100.00 1
2-23610 REMAN HO ALCo C636 Conrail #6787 $100.00 1
2-23623 REMAN HO C636 Cartier #78 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 1
2-23634 REMAN HO ALCo C636 PC Conrail Patch #6794 w/Snd/DCC $95.00 1
2-23716 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M CP #4507, full face no ditch $15.00 4
2-23719 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M CP #4503 Maroon/Grey $15.00 2
2-23720 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M CP #4505 Maroon/Grey $15.00 4
2-23728 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M CN #2020 $15.00 1
2-23731 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M PGE #701 $15.00 5
2-23732 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M PGE #704 $15.00 1
2-23742 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M BCR #703 Green $15.00 1
2-23792 REMAN HO C-630 C&O 2102 Hi Ad Trucks $100.00 1
2-23947 REMAN HO Baldwin S12 Switcher GN Simplified Scheme #27 $89.98 1
2-23964 REMAN S12 Erie w/LokSnd/DCC #617 $140.00 1
2-23967 REMAN HO Baldwin S12 Switcher C of G #314 $89.98 1
2-23968 REMAN HO Baldwin S12 Switcher C of G w/Snd/DCC #312 $139.98 1
2-24034 REMAN HO F7a C&NW #409 w/LokSound $140.00 1
2-24036 REMAN HO F7a Canadian National #9168 $90.00 1
2-24038 REMAN HO F7a Canadian National #9168 w/LokSound $140.00 1
2-24042 REMAN HO F7a/b CN #9168 & #9195 w/LokSound $245.00 1
2-24046 REMAN HO F7a Alaska RR #1506 w/LokSound $139.98 1
2-24047 REMAN HO F7a Alaska RR #1508 w/LokSound $139.98 1
2-24048 REMAN HO F7a Kansas City Southern #4057 $75.00 1
2-24062 REMAN HO F7a/b Lehigh Valley #562 & #519 w/LokSound $245.00 2
2-24066 REMAN HO F7a New York Central #1842 w/LokSound $155.00 1
2-24112 REMAN HO SD40-2 ONT as del Green w/yellow red stripes #1731 $115.00 1
2-24114 REMAN HO SD40-2 ONT as dlv Grn w/yel red strps #1734 $100.00 1
2-24116 REMAN SD40-2 ONT as del Grn w/ylw red strps w/DCC/Snd #1733 $185.00 1
2-24117 REMAN HO SD40-2 ONT as del w/Snd #1734 $150.00 3
2-24119 REMAN HO SD40-2 ONT Yellow w/chevrons #1736 $100.00 1
2-24176 REMAN HO Alco C430 PC #2058 $100.00 1
2-24218 REMAN HO Baldwin VO1000 CB&Q Zebra Stripe #9367 $100.00 1
2-24310 REMAN HO MLW M636 CPRail 8" Str w/Snd #4717 $155.00 1
2-24355 REMAN HO Baldwin DRS-6-6-1500 C&O #5530 $145.00 1
2-24359 REMAN HO Baldwin DRS-6-6-1500 Erie Lackawanna #1151 $145.00 1
2-24369 REMAN HO Baldwin AS-616 Pennsylvania #8967 $145.00 2
2-24397 REMAN HO C-636 Illinois Central #1103 w/snd $150.00 1
2-24407 REMAN HO C-636 Spokane Portland & Seattle #331 $100.00 1
2-24415 REMAN HO C-636 SP&S/BN #4362 w/snd $100.00 1
2-24441 REMAN HO SD40-2 Algoma Central #184 $100.00 1
2-24443 REMAN HO SD40-2 Algoma Central #184 Snd $100.00 2
2-24444 REMAN HO SD40-2 Algoma Central #187 Snd $100.00 2
2-24501 REMAN HO SD40-2 ON modern #1730 $100.00 1
2-24503 REMAN HO SD40-2 ON modern #1730 Snd $150.00 1
2-24504 REMAN HO SD40-2 ON modern #1734 Snd $150.00 5
2-32021 SCREW 6-32 X 1/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-32082 6-32 X 1/2 FILL HD SCREWS 100pcs $5.00 49
2-32281 SCREW 6-32 X 1.75 RH 100pcs $5.00 49
2-37289 N ACF CYL.CVRD HOP. MOPAC GRAY Rapido Couplers $9.00 81
2-37301 N ACF CYLIND CVRD HOPPER ARCO/POLY Rapido Couplers $9.00 127
2-40031 SCREW 4-40 X 3/16 RH 100 pcs $5.00 46
2-40032 SCREW 4-40 X 3/16 FH 100pcs $5.00 45
2-40042 SCREW 4-40X1/4 FH 100 pcs $5.00 45
2-40051 SCREW 4-40 X 5/16 SLOTTED RH 100 pcs $5.00 49
2-40061 SCREW 4-40 X 3/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 46
2-40081 SCREW 4-40 X 1/2 SLOTTED RH 100pcs $5.00 45
2-40101 SCREW 4-40 X 5/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-40102 SCREW 4-40 X 5/8 FH 100pcs $5.00 46
2-40121 SCREW 4-40 X 3/4 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-40161 SCREW 4-40 X 1 RH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-40162 SCREW 4-40 X 1 FH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-40163 4-40 X 1 in. Philips SCREWS PK 100 $5.00 49
2-40201 SCREW 4-40 X 1-1/4 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-41162 SCREW 4-40X1 FH Non Mag Brass 100pcs $5.00 47
2-48028 SCREW 3-48 X 1/8 PAN HD 100pcs $5.00 46
2-48029 SCREW 3-48 X 5/32 FH 100pcs $5.00 49
2-48041 SCREW 3-48 X 1/4 RH 100pcs $5.00 46
2-48048 SCREW 3-48 X 1/4 PAN HD 100pcs $5.00 49
2-48061 SCREW 3-48 X 3/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-48062 SCREW 3-48 X 3/8 FH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-48131 SCREW 3-48 X 13/16 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-48162 SCREW 3-48 X 1 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-49029 GG-1 Lead Truck Frame Die Cast each $1.00 277
2-50000 Washer Locking #5 100pcs $5.00 47
2-56019 SCREW 2-56 X 3/32 FH 100pcs $5.00 41
2-56022 SCREW 2-56 X 1/8 FH 100pcs $5.00 31
2-56032 SCREW 2-56X3/16 FH 100pcs $5.00 32
2-56039 SCREW 2-56 X 7/32 RH 100pcs $5.00 37
2-56042 SCREW 2-56 X 1/4 FH 100pcs $5.00 30
2-56043 SCREW 2-56 X 1/4 FILLISTER HD 100pcs $5.00 43
2-56051 SCREW 2-56 X 5/16 RH 100pcs $5.00 32
2-56052 SCREW 2-56 X 5/16 FH 100pcs $5.00 41
2-56053 SCREW 2-56 X 5/16 FILL. HD 100PCS $5.00 43
2-56058 SCREW 2-56 X 5/16 PAN SELF-TAPPING 100PCS $5.00 31
2-56071 SCREW 2-56 X 7/16 RH 100pcs $5.00 42
2-56073 SCREW 2-56 X 7/16 FILL.HD 100pcs $5.00 44
2-56082 SCREW 2-56 X 1/2 SLOTTED FH 100pcs $5.00 43
2-56101 SCREW 2-56 X 5/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 40
2-56121 SCREW 2-56 X 3/4 RH 100pcs $5.00 41
2-56122 SCREW 2-56 X 3/4 FH 100pcs $5.00 43
2-56131 SCREW 2-56 X 13/16 RH 100pcs $5.00 43
2-56143 SCREW 2-56 X 7/8 FILL.HD 100pcs $5.00 45
2-56162 SCREW 2-56 X 1 FH 100pcs $5.00 41
2-56183 SCREW 2-56 X 1-1/8 FILL.HD 100pcs $5.00 39
2-70237 PRR DOCKSIDE BODY $4.00 3
2-70238 UP DOCKSIDE BODY $4.00 10
2-70239 B&O DOCKSIDE BODY $4.00 7
2-70240 SF DOCKSIDE BODY $4.00 9
2-70241 DOCKSIDE BODY L&N $4.00 10
2-70242 DOCKSIDE BODY FEC $4.00 10
2-70243 DOCKSIDE BODY LV $4.00 10
2-70244 DOCKSIDE BODY B&M $4.00 8
2-70245 DOCKSIDE BODY IC $4.00 7
2-70246 DOCKSIDE BODY NP $4.00 10
2-70247 DOCKSIDE BODY D&H $4.00 10
2-70248 DOCKSIDE BODY RF&P $4.00 10
2-70249 DOCKSIDE BODY AC&Y $4.00 10
2-70250 DOCKSIDE BODY ST $4.00 10
2-70252 DOCKSIDE BODY RDG $4.00 10
2-70253 DOCKSIDE BODY RI $4.00 9
2-70255 DOCKSIDE BODY CB&Q $4.00 9
2-70256 DOCKSIDE BODY WM $4.00 10
2-70257 DOCKSIDE BODY T&P $4.00 10
2-70258 DOCKSIDE BODY Florida East Coast $4.00 9
2-70259 DOCKSIDE BODY NYC $4.00 9
2-70260 DOCKSIDE BODY NH $4.00 10
2-70261 DOCKSIDE BODY P&LE $4.00 10
2-70262 DOCKSIDE BODY MEC $4.00 10
2-70263 DOCKSIDE BODY LI $4.00 9
2-70264 DOCKSIDE BODY Clinchfield $4.00 10
2-70265 DOCKSIDE BODY Katy $4.00 10
2-70266 DOCKSIDE BODY NKP $4.00 10

2-70267 DOCKSIDE BODY ACL $4.00 10
2-70268 DOCKSIDE BODY C&O $4.00 10
2-70269 DOCKSIDE BODY CoG $4.00 10
2-70270 DOCKSIDE BODY KC&S $4.00 10
2-70271 DOCKSIDE BODY SOU $4.00 10
2-70272 DOCKSIDE BODY GB&W $4.00 10
2-70273 DOCKSIDE BODY C&NW $4.00 10
2-70274 DOCKSIDE BODY EL $4.00 10
2-70275 DOCKSIDE BODY CP $4.00 10
2-70276 DOCKSIDE BODY CV $4.00 10
2-70277 DOCKSIDE BODY SP $4.00 9
2-70279 DOCKSIDE BODY WP $1.66 10
2-70280 DOCKSIDE BODY GN $1.66 10
2-70281 DOCKSIDE BODY AT&SF $1.66 8
2-70282 DOCKSIDE BODY CN $1.66 10
2-70283 DOCKSIDE BODY CNJ $1.66 9
2-70284 DOCKSIDE BODY Missouri Pacific $1.66 9
2-75298 HO H43 100 ton Hopper Body Partial Built Up Black $4.00 312
2-75299 HO H43 100 ton Hopper Body Partial Built Up Brown $4.00 37
2-75303 HO BU 40ft RR INSET SD PRR X31 PLAIN KEYSTONE $8.95 77
2-75348 HO BU 40ft RR FLUSH DD BOX DT&I $8.95 78
2-79363 #4 x 1/2 in. PH Self Tapping SCREWS PK 100 $5.00 46
2-372861 N ACF CYLIND CVRD HOPPER SP Body Only $5.00 290
2-373011 N ACF CYLIND CVRD HOPPER ARCO / Poly Body Only $5.00 189
2-900027 WASHER.087 X .150 X .012 BRASS 100pcs $5.00 40
2-900029 WASHER .280 X .126 X .010 FIBRE 100pcs $5.00 38
2-900190 WASHER 1/8 X 1/4 X .020 FIBRE 100pcs $5.00 39
2-900191 WASHER 1/8 X 5/16 X 1/32 FIBRE 100pcs $5.00 44
2-901260 WASHER .090 X .183 X .014 FIBRE 100pcs $5.00 40
2-901261 WASHER .093 X .187 X .010 BRASS 100pcs $5.00 37
2-902622 SCREW 2 X 1/8 PAN SELF-TAPPING 100pcs $5.00 41
2-902623 SCREW 2 X 3/16 PAN SELF-TAPPING 100pcs $5.00 43
2-902624 SCREW 2 X 1/4 PAN SELF-TAPPING 100pcs $5.00 40
2-902646 #4 X 3/8 TYPE A PAN PHIL BLACK 100pcs $5.00 47
1-71902 Tender Body -Hi-side with Coal Load painted black $9.00 12
1-71903 Tender Floor -Hi-side with truck screws $5.00 15
1-71905 Tender Body - 32ft w/ Load Ladder and Floor $12.50 15
1-79006 Wood Tie Strip Lumber .305 x .115 x 24 in Scale Track 8pcs $2.00 22
1-79007 Wood Tie Strip Lumber .315 x .190 x 24in Tip Plate 8pcs $2.00 12
1-79214 SO PIT BUSHING LONG $11.90 3
1-79234 PIVOT SHAFT O TURNTABLE $3.00 37
1-79330 SET COLLAR 5/16" $2.00 41
1-79333 O RINGS FOR TURNTABLE DRIVE WHEEL $2.00 7
1-79334 TURNTABLE MOTOR BRACKET $2.00 98
1-79335 SPRING FOR TT DRIVE $2.00 9
1-79388 COMBINATION GEAR $1.32 908
1-79389 MOTOR GEAR 1/8 HOLES $1.32 868
1-79390 DRIVE SHAFT GEAR - 3/16 ID $1.32 881
1-79399 MOTOR GEAR 2MM HOLE FOR 7900 $0.99 972
1-79417 O Deck Handrail Stanchion - pewter - use 1/32 wire for rail $0.50 70
1-79471 O Deck Center Girder Bridge Panels PK6 $1.00 36

Contact Information
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bowser Mfg
PO Box 322
1302 Jordan Ave
Montoursville PA 17754
phone: 800-327-5126
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Join Our Mailing List
Bowser Manufacturing Company Inc.
Bowser Mfg Co Inc
1302 Jordan Avenue
PO Box 322
Montoursville PA 17754
SafeUnsubscribe™ wjaywanczyk@...
Forward email
Update Profile
About our service provider
Sent by sales@... in collaboration with
Constant Contact
Try it free today

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26906	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/2/2018
Subject: Re: Bowser 5.31.18 Fire Sale List

On 6/2/2018 12:12 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Hi Ray W., and All, Since the Bowser Fire Sale list is just a simple email to those on the regular company mailing list and not linked to their website, I am copying the list and pasting it into this message. It's the best I could do from my phone as I am not near my PC or laptop. The only items that did not copy are the logo and a few tiny illustrations. Hope this helps. W. Jay W.

Somebody has posted a Bowser fire sale list with pictures at this
location:
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Bowser-Fire-Sale-HO-N---O-Scale-Train-Parts-Pieces-and-Last-of-their-kind.html?soid=1102299084446&aid=22DlfTP7FN8

It's not dated and doesn't appear to be identical to yours, so I'm
guessing that it may be from a previous fire sale. Still, the inclusion
of pics is handy as a cross reference.
I would like to know what color those 2-202 micro-LEDs are.

--

Rick Jones

"I have always given it as my decided opinion that no nation has a right
to intermeddle in the internal concerns of another; that every one had a
right to form and adopt whatever government they liked best to live
under themselves; and that if this country could, consistently with its
engagements , maintain a strict neutrality and thereby preserve peace,
it was bound to do so by motives of policy, interest, and every other
consideration."
-George Washington

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26907	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/2/2018
Subject: Re: Bowser 5.31.18 Fire Sale List

On 6/2/2018 12:12 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Hi Ray W., and All, Since the Bowser Fire Sale list is just a simple email to those on the regular company mailing list and not linked to their website, I am copying the list and pasting it into this message. It's the best I could do from my phone as I am not near my PC or laptop. The only items that did not copy are the logo and a few tiny illustrations. Hope this helps. W. Jay W.

Following on to my previous replay, it seems there have been 3
Bowser fire sale lists posted to that web site. Here are the other two:

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Bowser-Fire-Sale-HO-N---O-Scale-Train-Parts-Pieces-and-Last-of-their-kind.html?soid=1102299084446&aid=22DlfTP7FN8

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Bowser-Fire-Sale-HO-N---O-Scale-Train-Parts-Pieces-and-Last-of-their-kind.html?soid=1102299084446&aid=6pVi5tJxZKY

Again, these appear to be older lists but the pics are handy for
reference to the items on your list.

--

Rick Jones

Laughing is good exercise. It's like jogging on the inside.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26908	From: william witte	Date: 6/2/2018
Subject: Re: Old type Varney Dockside Frame

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 6/2/18, Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, June 2, 2018, 8:48 AM

Hi, You can go to Bowser's Facebook page and find a link to it there.

Bill

Hi W.Jay W.,

As I don't see this Bowser Fire Sale on their website
either, undoubtedly because I'm not on their mailing
list, I had hoped to see you post this Bowser Fire Sale
promotion email to the group. In any event, would you
please ensure that I'll be able to receive it by any
means -- either by message to the group or by email?
I've missed out on previous Bowser Fire sales when they
occurred, obviously now because I wasn't on their email
list, but then, without my being unable to buy anything from
their Fire Sale at the time, there was no way I'd be put
on their list (unless I bought at full price when the sale
was going on). Many thanks,

Ray Wetzel

-----Original
Message-----

From: Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Fri, Jun 1, 2018 11:32 am

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame

Hi Vic B. I did not realize that the "fire
sale" does not appear on the Bowser website, but only
as an email promotion to those on their email list. I have
forwarded you a copy of the Bowser Fire Sale promotion email
that I received to your email address. If for some reason
you don't receive it, please let me know and I will send
it again. Jay W.

--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 6/1/18, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame

To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Date: Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:37 AM

Hi Jay,

I couldn't see

the photo of the frame. I also couldn't find the

Bowser firesale. Yes, I would like to purchase one

myself. Could you send me a link to the Bowser
firesale

please.

Thanks and regards,

Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
on behalf of Jay Wanczyk

the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO]

<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 8:34 PM

To: yahoogroups

Subject: [vintageHO] Old type Varney Dockside Frame

[1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Jay

Wanczyk included

below]

Hi Vic B., I noticed in Bowser's "Fire

Sale" email received today, May 31, that they have
16

of "old style" Docksider frames for sale,
Bowser

part number 2-240 at $3.00 each. See attached screen cap
of

that part of the priceless. I'm not sure what they

define

as "old" but it might be worth a try. At that

price, I might order one as well, as one never knows when
it

might prove handy. W. Jay W.

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685 --

#yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp {

border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px

0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp hr {

border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp #yiv0009141685hd {

color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px

0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp #yiv0009141685ads
{

margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad {

padding:0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad p
{

margin:0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mkp .yiv0009141685ad a
{

color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc {

font-family:Arial;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc #yiv0009141685hd {

margin:10px

0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor

#yiv0009141685ygrp-lc .yiv0009141685ad {

margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685actions {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity {

background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span {

font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span:first-child {

text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span a {

color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span span {

color:#ff7900;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685activity span

.yiv0009141685underline {

text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach {

clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px

0;width:400px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach div a {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach img {

border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach label {

display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685attach label a {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 blockquote {

margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685bold {

font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685bold a {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p a {

font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p span {

margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 dd.yiv0009141685last p

span.yiv0009141685yshortcuts {

margin-right:0;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685attach-table div div a {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685attach-table {

width:400px;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685file-title a,
#yiv0009141685

div.yiv0009141685file-title a:active, #yiv0009141685

div.yiv0009141685file-title a:hover, #yiv0009141685

div.yiv0009141685file-title a:visited {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a,

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:active,

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:hover,

#yiv0009141685 div.yiv0009141685photo-title a:visited {

text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 div#yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg

#yiv0009141685ygrp-msg p a span.yiv0009141685yshortcuts
{

font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685green {

color:#628c2a;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685MsoNormal {

margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv0009141685 o {

font-size:0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div {

float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div div {

border:1px solid

#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685photos div label {

color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685reco-category {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685reco-desc {

font-size:77%;}

#yiv0009141685 .yiv0009141685replbq {

margin:4px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-actbar div a:first-child
{

margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg {

font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,

sans-serif;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg table {

font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg select,

#yiv0009141685 input, #yiv0009141685 textarea {

font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg pre,
#yiv0009141685

code {

font:115% monospace;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg * {

line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-mlmsg #yiv0009141685logo
{

padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-msg p a {

font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-msg

p#yiv0009141685attach-count span {

color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-reco

#yiv0009141685reco-head {

color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-reco {

margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ov

li a {

font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ov

li {

font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-sponsor
#yiv0009141685ov

ul {

margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text {

font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text p {

margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-text tt {

font-size:120%;}

#yiv0009141685 #yiv0009141685ygrp-vital ul li:last-child
{

border-right:none !important;

}

#yiv0009141685

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676 --
#yiv2357479676ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mkp #yiv2357479676hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mkp #yiv2357479676ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mkp .yiv2357479676ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mkp .yiv2357479676ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mkp .yiv2357479676ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2357479676ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2357479676ygrp-lc #yiv2357479676hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2357479676ygrp-lc .yiv2357479676ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676activity span
.yiv2357479676underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2357479676 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2357479676 dd.yiv2357479676last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2357479676 dd.yiv2357479676last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2357479676 dd.yiv2357479676last p
span.yiv2357479676yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv2357479676 div.yiv2357479676attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2357479676 div.yiv2357479676attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv2357479676 div.yiv2357479676file-title a, #yiv2357479676
div.yiv2357479676file-title a:active, #yiv2357479676
div.yiv2357479676file-title a:hover, #yiv2357479676
div.yiv2357479676file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2357479676 div.yiv2357479676photo-title a,
#yiv2357479676 div.yiv2357479676photo-title a:active,
#yiv2357479676 div.yiv2357479676photo-title a:hover,
#yiv2357479676 div.yiv2357479676photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2357479676 div#yiv2357479676ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv2357479676ygrp-msg p a span.yiv2357479676yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv2357479676 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv2357479676 .yiv2357479676replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv2357479676 input, #yiv2357479676 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv2357479676
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-mlmsg #yiv2357479676logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-msg
p#yiv2357479676attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-reco
#yiv2357479676reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-sponsor #yiv2357479676ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-sponsor #yiv2357479676ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-sponsor #yiv2357479676ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv2357479676 #yiv2357479676ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv2357479676

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26909	From: Kenneth Clark	Date: 6/2/2018
Subject: Yahoo Groups Status update

For the last several months I've been a member of the GroupsManagersForum at YG, a list dedicated to keeping YG lists up and accessible.

For the last couple of months that group has been fairly quiet, anticipating a formal announcement from Oath

on the future of YG and the lists. Last month we did get a hint of future changes when we were forced to take the "Oath Pledge"

Today on GMF was posted this status update on 'help' or 'support' of YG lists.

No further help available for Groups

Thu May 31, 2018 11:49 am (PDT) . Posted by:

simonbaowow

It looks to me like the time of waiting to see if help from Verizon will ever come for Groups is now over. No Help Is Coming. And it looks to me like that is official.

In response to a usual request I made to Concierge Care for help with a Group that had all its Files disappear, I got this back from Concierge Care:

Please note that all services, including Yahoo Groups, are provided "as-is" pursuant to the Terms of Service https://policies.oath.com/, so we cannot guarantee that any particular part of the site will be functional 100% of the time. We do apologize for any frustration this may cause.

And this:

For any future help or support requests, please visit our Help Pages http://help.yahoo.com.

Someone forgot to add "Here's your hat, here's the door, what's your hurry? Don't call us, we'll call you."

As owners & mods probably know, there is precious little help at those Help Pages, and there is nothing at all pertaining to Groups. Just for fun, enter a search there at those Help Pages for the word Groups and just see what you get as results.

And there is no way to submit a "support request" there for anything pertaining to Groups.

Verizon seems to have installed Memory Hole 10.0, and Groups has just been dropped down into it.

If owners and mods choose NOT to find a new host elsewhere for their Groups (and all your Files, Photos Mssg Archives, etc), please be aware that you're using it "as-is" and that "as-is" since last autumn has meant persistent trouble for lots of Groups. Often, Big Ass Trouble. Now there will be not even a wee bit of help available. Over the past months, some temporary fixes could be asked for and obtained with restoring Files, Photos, Conversations, etc - and it seems that is no longer the case.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news - I met some rather nice owners and mods, forwarding help requests to the very responsive Marie at Concierce Care. Heads up, we're on our own and I've got neither help nor hope to offer. Best of luck with whatever decisions you *thoughtfully* and *carefully* arrive at.

-simon

FWIW - Simon has been very helpful in getting Verizon support for YG list technical issues for the last several months using Concierge Care; they may have been told to stop helping him.

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26910	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/3/2018
Subject: Re: Bowser 5.31.18 Fire Sale List

Hi Jay,

Thanks for all your help, You may have noticed too, that Chuck Higdon sent me thee Bowser News Letter with the Fire Sale listing very shorty after I posted my request. Between the both of you, I have no problem accessing this listing. Thanks again.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: yahoogroups <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jun 2, 2018 1:22 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] Bowser 5.31.18 Fire Sale List

Hi Ray W., and All, Since the Bowser Fire Sale list is just a simple email to those on the regular company mailing list and not linked to their website, I am copying the list and pasting it into this message. It's the best I could do from my phone as I am not near my PC or laptop. The only items that did not copy are the logo and a few tiny illustrations. Hope this helps. W. Jay W.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bowser News Letter

FIRE SALE

Sale Terms
Dealers and Public Orders Welcome
Payment Due When Ordering

Order By PHONE, EMAIL or Fax Only

Lots of Discontinued items being offered at Net Only Sale Pricing

These items are New Old Stock or Left Over items found in our ware house. REMAN Items are items returned to us with either minor imperfections or mechanical issues which have been repaired but can but we can no longer sell as new. These items may have shelf worn boxes and or remaining body shell defects. They all have been run tested and work correctly.

All Sales Final no Returns

ALL ITEMS SOLD - AS IS
NO EXCEPTIONS
NO WARRANTIES EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.

Limited Quantities Available
All items are discontinued when sold out.
No hold orders or back orders

All Orders By

Phone
1-800-327-5126
570-368-2379

Fax
570-368-5046

or Email
sales@...

These items are not offered on line.

Payment information and shipping details must be provided with order.

PN Description NET QTY
2-201 Circuit Board Plug 2 Wire Female PK 10 $2.00 83
2-202 Micro LED Surface Mount PK 20 $2.50 86
2-203 Micro Electric Switch PK20 $5.00 180
2-206 DC Can Motor 12V 1.125 x 1.750 - .090 x .500 Shaft $2.00 1864
2-224 O Roadrailer Body only Scratch and Dent Various Roads $2.00 711
2-225 O Highway Trailer Body only Scratch and Dent Various Roads $2.00 115
2-234 DC77 Motor w/ Worm for old Dockside Loco $5.00 8
2-240 HO Dockside Frame old Style Painted $3.00 16
2-249 HO Spun Brass Boiler Tube NKP Loco's $20.00 5
2-250 HO Spun Brass Boiler Tube C&O Loco's $20.00 8
2-253 DC Motor Turn Table Replacement Motor with Gear $15.00 36
2-332 HO Bowser 10th Ed Reference Manual $2.00 1
2-333 HO Bowser 9th Ed Reference Manual $2.00 1
2-337 HO Bowser 7th Ed Reference Manual $2.00 1
2-342 HO Bowser Athearn Parts Catalog 1979 $2.00 15
2-369 HO Bowser Casey Jones RTR Body Only with Details $30.00 6
2-375 HO Bowser E-6 Bodies painted with details $25.00 2
2-411 HO Bowser USRA Mountain Boiler Painted with Details $45.00 6
2-413 HO Bowser USRA Mountain Boiler Painted with Details $45.00 5
2-416 HO Bowser L-1 Boiler with Details $45.00 7
2-417 HO Bowser BB- Challenger Pilot Assembly $20.00 23
2-418 HO Bowser M1 Mountain Boiler Painted with Details $45.00 5
2-419 HO Bowser Northern Boilers with Varying Details $45.00 10
2-435 HO Bowser Challenger Front and Rear Frame Sets $12.00 20
2-436 HO Bowser Improved I-1 Frame and Cylinder $30.00 42
2-457 HO Bowser Die Cast PCC Body Painted $10.00 58
2-467 HO Bowser Brill Die Cast Dummy Chassis $12.00 1
2-468 HO Bowser IRR Trolly Die Cast Partial Chassis $10.00 34
2-477 HO Bowser Brill Trolley Floor Die Cast $5.00 37
2-542 HO Cary NOS E6-B Body Kit in Box $25.00 2
2-544 HO Cary NOS E7-B Body Kit in Box $25.00 1
2-550 HO Cary NOS FT-B Body Kit in Box $20.00 1
2-571 O Passenger Car Lounge Chair White Metal Casting $1.50 73
2-573 O Cast Metal Box Car Single Door assortment 8pcs $8.00 1
2-574 O Cast Metal Box Car Ends each $2.00 38
2-576 O Cast Metal Double Box Car Doors $3.00 9
2-581 HO Cary SW1500 Body Kit $15.00 1
2-583 HO Misc Cary Diesel Castings $15.00 1
2-588 HO Cary F Unit Metal Body Casting $7.00 1

2-593 HO 40ft Box Car Body and Doors PRR $3.00 3
2-610 HO Turntable Drive Wheel Clamp New Style $15.00 1
2-611 HO Turntable Bridge Bogie New Style Diecast each $15.00 12
2-906 00-90 X 3/16 SCREW Philister 100pcs $5.00 31
2-23129 Body Only HO GE U25B PH2 N&W Hamburger Cab #3524 $15.00 1
2-23379 Body Only HO GE U25B Frisco #825 $15.00 9
2-23381 Body Only HO GE U25B Frisco #828 $15.00 12
2-23389 Body Only HO GE U25B Conrail #2596 $15.00 2
2-23576 REMAN HO C636 Illinois Central #1100 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 1
2-23578 REMAN HO C636 Illinois Central #1105 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 1
2-23584 REMAN HO C636 Penn Central #6344 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 1
2-23602 REMAN HO C636 BN w/o SG #4368 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 2
2-23603 REMAN HO ALCo C636 BN w/snow guard #4360 $100.00 1
2-23610 REMAN HO ALCo C636 Conrail #6787 $100.00 1
2-23623 REMAN HO C636 Cartier #78 w/LokSnd/DCC $150.00 1
2-23634 REMAN HO ALCo C636 PC Conrail Patch #6794 w/Snd/DCC $95.00 1
2-23716 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M CP #4507, full face no ditch $15.00 4
2-23719 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M CP #4503 Maroon/Grey $15.00 2
2-23720 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M CP #4505 Maroon/Grey $15.00 4
2-23728 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M CN #2020 $15.00 1
2-23731 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M PGE #701 $15.00 5
2-23732 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M PGE #704 $15.00 1
2-23742 Body Only HO ALCO C-630M BCR #703 Green $15.00 1
2-23792 REMAN HO C-630 C&O 2102 Hi Ad Trucks $100.00 1
2-23947 REMAN HO Baldwin S12 Switcher GN Simplified Scheme #27 $89.98 1
2-23964 REMAN S12 Erie w/LokSnd/DCC #617 $140.00 1
2-23967 REMAN HO Baldwin S12 Switcher C of G #314 $89.98 1
2-23968 REMAN HO Baldwin S12 Switcher C of G w/Snd/DCC #312 $139.98 1
2-24034 REMAN HO F7a C&NW #409 w/LokSound $140.00 1
2-24036 REMAN HO F7a Canadian National #9168 $90.00 1
2-24038 REMAN HO F7a Canadian National #9168 w/LokSound $140.00 1
2-24042 REMAN HO F7a/b CN #9168 & #9195 w/LokSound $245.00 1
2-24046 REMAN HO F7a Alaska RR #1506 w/LokSound $139.98 1
2-24047 REMAN HO F7a Alaska RR #1508 w/LokSound $139.98 1
2-24048 REMAN HO F7a Kansas City Southern #4057 $75.00 1
2-24062 REMAN HO F7a/b Lehigh Valley #562 & #519 w/LokSound $245.00 2
2-24066 REMAN HO F7a New York Central #1842 w/LokSound $155.00 1
2-24112 REMAN HO SD40-2 ONT as del Green w/yellow red stripes #1731 $115..00 1
2-24114 REMAN HO SD40-2 ONT as dlv Grn w/yel red strps #1734 $100.00 1
2-24116 REMAN SD40-2 ONT as del Grn w/ylw red strps w/DCC/Snd #1733 $185..00 1
2-24117 REMAN HO SD40-2 ONT as del w/Snd #1734 $150.00 3
2-24119 REMAN HO SD40-2 ONT Yellow w/chevrons #1736 $100.00 1
2-24176 REMAN HO Alco C430 PC #2058 $100.00 1
2-24218 REMAN HO Baldwin VO1000 CB&Q Zebra Stripe #9367 $100.00 1
2-24310 REMAN HO MLW M636 CPRail 8" Str w/Snd #4717 $155.00 1
2-24355 REMAN HO Baldwin DRS-6-6-1500 C&O #5530 $145.00 1
2-24359 REMAN HO Baldwin DRS-6-6-1500 Erie Lackawanna #1151 $145.00 1
2-24369 REMAN HO Baldwin AS-616 Pennsylvania #8967 $145.00 2
2-24397 REMAN HO C-636 Illinois Central #1103 w/snd $150.00 1
2-24407 REMAN HO C-636 Spokane Portland & Seattle #331 $100.00 1
2-24415 REMAN HO C-636 SP&S/BN #4362 w/snd $100.00 1
2-24441 REMAN HO SD40-2 Algoma Central #184 $100.00 1
2-24443 REMAN HO SD40-2 Algoma Central #184 Snd $100.00 2
2-24444 REMAN HO SD40-2 Algoma Central #187 Snd $100.00 2
2-24501 REMAN HO SD40-2 ON modern #1730 $100.00 1
2-24503 REMAN HO SD40-2 ON modern #1730 Snd $150.00 1
2-24504 REMAN HO SD40-2 ON modern #1734 Snd $150.00 5
2-32021 SCREW 6-32 X 1/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-32082 6-32 X 1/2 FILL HD SCREWS 100pcs $5.00 49
2-32281 SCREW 6-32 X 1.75 RH 100pcs $5.00 49
2-37289 N ACF CYL.CVRD HOP. MOPAC GRAY Rapido Couplers $9.00 81
2-37301 N ACF CYLIND CVRD HOPPER ARCO/POLY Rapido Couplers $9.00 127
2-40031 SCREW 4-40 X 3/16 RH 100 pcs $5.00 46
2-40032 SCREW 4-40 X 3/16 FH 100pcs $5.00 45
2-40042 SCREW 4-40X1/4 FH 100 pcs $5.00 45
2-40051 SCREW 4-40 X 5/16 SLOTTED RH 100 pcs $5.00 49
2-40061 SCREW 4-40 X 3/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 46
2-40081 SCREW 4-40 X 1/2 SLOTTED RH 100pcs $5.00 45
2-40101 SCREW 4-40 X 5/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-40102 SCREW 4-40 X 5/8 FH 100pcs $5.00 46
2-40121 SCREW 4-40 X 3/4 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-40161 SCREW 4-40 X 1 RH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-40162 SCREW 4-40 X 1 FH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-40163 4-40 X 1 in. Philips SCREWS PK 100 $5.00 49
2-40201 SCREW 4-40 X 1-1/4 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-41162 SCREW 4-40X1 FH Non Mag Brass 100pcs $5.00 47
2-48028 SCREW 3-48 X 1/8 PAN HD 100pcs $5.00 46
2-48029 SCREW 3-48 X 5/32 FH 100pcs $5.00 49
2-48041 SCREW 3-48 X 1/4 RH 100pcs $5.00 46
2-48048 SCREW 3-48 X 1/4 PAN HD 100pcs $5.00 49
2-48061 SCREW 3-48 X 3/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-48062 SCREW 3-48 X 3/8 FH 100pcs $5.00 48
2-48131 SCREW 3-48 X 13/16 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-48162 SCREW 3-48 X 1 RH 100pcs $5.00 47
2-49029 GG-1 Lead Truck Frame Die Cast each $1.00 277
2-50000 Washer Locking #5 100pcs $5.00 47
2-56019 SCREW 2-56 X 3/32 FH 100pcs $5.00 41
2-56022 SCREW 2-56 X 1/8 FH 100pcs $5.00 31
2-56032 SCREW 2-56X3/16 FH 100pcs $5.00 32
2-56039 SCREW 2-56 X 7/32 RH 100pcs $5.00 37
2-56042 SCREW 2-56 X 1/4 FH 100pcs $5.00 30
2-56043 SCREW 2-56 X 1/4 FILLISTER HD 100pcs $5.00 43
2-56051 SCREW 2-56 X 5/16 RH 100pcs $5.00 32
2-56052 SCREW 2-56 X 5/16 FH 100pcs $5.00 41
2-56053 SCREW 2-56 X 5/16 FILL. HD 100PCS $5.00 43
2-56058 SCREW 2-56 X 5/16 PAN SELF-TAPPING 100PCS $5.00 31
2-56071 SCREW 2-56 X 7/16 RH 100pcs $5.00 42
2-56073 SCREW 2-56 X 7/16 FILL.HD 100pcs $5.00 44
2-56082 SCREW 2-56 X 1/2 SLOTTED FH 100pcs $5.00 43
2-56101 SCREW 2-56 X 5/8 RH 100pcs $5.00 40
2-56121 SCREW 2-56 X 3/4 RH 100pcs $5.00 41
2-56122 SCREW 2-56 X 3/4 FH 100pcs $5.00 43
2-56131 SCREW 2-56 X 13/16 RH 100pcs $5.00 43
2-56143 SCREW 2-56 X 7/8 FILL.HD 100pcs $5.00 45
2-56162 SCREW 2-56 X 1 FH 100pcs $5.00 41
2-56183 SCREW 2-56 X 1-1/8 FILL.HD 100pcs $5.00 39
2-70237 PRR DOCKSIDE BODY $4.00 3
2-70238 UP DOCKSIDE BODY $4.00 10
2-70239 B&O DOCKSIDE BODY $4.00 7
2-70240 SF DOCKSIDE BODY $4.00 9
2-70241 DOCKSIDE BODY L&N $4.00 10
2-70242 DOCKSIDE BODY FEC $4.00 10
2-70243 DOCKSIDE BODY LV $4.00 10
2-70244 DOCKSIDE BODY B&M $4.00 8
2-70245 DOCKSIDE BODY IC $4.00 7
2-70246 DOCKSIDE BODY NP $4.00 10
2-70247 DOCKSIDE BODY D&H $4.00 10
2-70248 DOCKSIDE BODY RF&P $4.00 10
2-70249 DOCKSIDE BODY AC&Y $4.00 10
2-70250 DOCKSIDE BODY ST $4.00 10
2-70252 DOCKSIDE BODY RDG $4.00 10
2-70253 DOCKSIDE BODY RI $4.00 9
2-70255 DOCKSIDE BODY CB&Q $4.00 9
2-70256 DOCKSIDE BODY WM $4.00 10
2-70257 DOCKSIDE BODY T&P $4.00 10
2-70258 DOCKSIDE BODY Florida East Coast $4.00 9
2-70259 DOCKSIDE BODY NYC $4.00 9
2-70260 DOCKSIDE BODY NH $4.00 10
2-70261 DOCKSIDE BODY P&LE $4.00 10
2-70262 DOCKSIDE BODY MEC $4.00 10
2-70263 DOCKSIDE BODY LI $4.00 9
2-70264 DOCKSIDE BODY Clinchfield $4.00 10
2-70265 DOCKSIDE BODY Katy $4.00 10
2-70266 DOCKSIDE BODY NKP $4.00 10

2-70267 DOCKSIDE BODY ACL $4.00 10
2-70268 DOCKSIDE BODY C&O $4.00 10
2-70269 DOCKSIDE BODY CoG $4.00 10
2-70270 DOCKSIDE BODY KC&S $4.00 10
2-70271 DOCKSIDE BODY SOU $4.00 10
2-70272 DOCKSIDE BODY GB&W $4.00 10
2-70273 DOCKSIDE BODY C&NW $4.00 10
2-70274 DOCKSIDE BODY EL $4.00 10
2-70275 DOCKSIDE BODY CP $4.00 10
2-70276 DOCKSIDE BODY CV $4.00 10
2-70277 DOCKSIDE BODY SP $4.00 9
2-70279 DOCKSIDE BODY WP $1.66 10
2-70280 DOCKSIDE BODY GN $1.66 10
2-70281 DOCKSIDE BODY AT&SF $1.66 8
2-70282 DOCKSIDE BODY CN $1.66 10
2-70283 DOCKSIDE BODY CNJ $1.66 9
2-70284 DOCKSIDE BODY Missouri Pacific $1.66 9
2-75298 HO H43 100 ton Hopper Body Partial Built Up Black $4.00 312
2-75299 HO H43 100 ton Hopper Body Partial Built Up Brown $4.00 37
2-75303 HO BU 40ft RR INSET SD PRR X31 PLAIN KEYSTONE $8.95 77
2-75348 HO BU 40ft RR FLUSH DD BOX DT&I $8.95 78
2-79363 #4 x 1/2 in. PH Self Tapping SCREWS PK 100 $5.00 46
2-372861 N ACF CYLIND CVRD HOPPER SP Body Only $5.00 290
2-373011 N ACF CYLIND CVRD HOPPER ARCO / Poly Body Only $5.00 189
2-900027 WASHER.087 X .150 X .012 BRASS 100pcs $5.00 40
2-900029 WASHER .280 X .126 X .010 FIBRE 100pcs $5.00 38
2-900190 WASHER 1/8 X 1/4 X .020 FIBRE 100pcs $5.00 39
2-900191 WASHER 1/8 X 5/16 X 1/32 FIBRE 100pcs $5.00 44
2-901260 WASHER .090 X .183 X .014 FIBRE 100pcs $5.00 40
2-901261 WASHER .093 X .187 X .010 BRASS 100pcs $5.00 37
2-902622 SCREW 2 X 1/8 PAN SELF-TAPPING 100pcs $5.00 41
2-902623 SCREW 2 X 3/16 PAN SELF-TAPPING 100pcs $5.00 43
2-902624 SCREW 2 X 1/4 PAN SELF-TAPPING 100pcs $5.00 40
2-902646 #4 X 3/8 TYPE A PAN PHIL BLACK 100pcs $5.00 47
1-71902 Tender Body -Hi-side with Coal Load painted black $9.00 12
1-71903 Tender Floor -Hi-side with truck screws $5.00 15
1-71905 Tender Body - 32ft w/ Load Ladder and Floor $12.50 15
1-79006 Wood Tie Strip Lumber .305 x .115 x 24 in Scale Track 8pcs $2.00 22
1-79007 Wood Tie Strip Lumber .315 x .190 x 24in Tip Plate 8pcs $2.00 12
1-79214 SO PIT BUSHING LONG $11.90 3
1-79234 PIVOT SHAFT O TURNTABLE $3.00 37
1-79330 SET COLLAR 5/16" $2.00 41
1-79333 O RINGS FOR TURNTABLE DRIVE WHEEL $2.00 7
1-79334 TURNTABLE MOTOR BRACKET $2.00 98
1-79335 SPRING FOR TT DRIVE $2.00 9
1-79388 COMBINATION GEAR $1.32 908
1-79389 MOTOR GEAR 1/8 HOLES $1.32 868
1-79390 DRIVE SHAFT GEAR - 3/16 ID $1.32 881
1-79399 MOTOR GEAR 2MM HOLE FOR 7900 $0.99 972
1-79417 O Deck Handrail Stanchion - pewter - use 1/32 wire for rail $0.50 70
1-79471 O Deck Center Girder Bridge Panels PK6 $1.00 36

Contact Information
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bowser Mfg
PO Box 322
1302 Jordan Ave
Montoursville PA 17754
phone: 800-327-5126
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Join Our Mailing List
Bowser Manufacturing Company Inc.
Bowser Mfg Co Inc
1302 Jordan Avenue
PO Box 322
Montoursville PA 17754
SafeUnsubscribe™ wjaywanczyk@...
Forward email
Update Profile
About our service provider
Sent by sales@... in collaboration with
Constant Contact
Try it free today

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26911	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/4/2018
Subject: Re: Bowser 5.31.18 Fire Sale List

Hi Rick,

Many thank for your reply.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jun 2, 2018 2:29 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Bowser 5.31.18 Fire Sale List

On 6/2/2018 12:12 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> Hi Ray W., and All, Since the Bowser Fire Sale list is just a simple email to those on the regular company mailing list and not linked to their website, I am copying the list and pasting it into this message. It's the best I could do from my phone as I am not near my PC or laptop. The only items that did not copy are the logo and a few tiny illustrations. Hope this helps. W. Jay W.

Somebody has posted a Bowser fire sale list with pictures at this
location:
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Bowser-Fire-Sale-HO-N---O-Scale-Train-Parts-Pieces-and-Last-of-their-kind.html?soid=1102299084446&aid=22DlfTP7FN8

It's not dated and doesn't appear to be identical to yours, so I'm
guessing that it may be from a previous fire sale. Still, the inclusion
of pics is handy as a cross reference.
I would like to know what color those 2-202 micro-LEDs are.

--

Rick Jones

"I have always given it as my decided opinion that no nation has a right
to intermeddle in the internal concerns of another; that every one had a
right to form and adopt whatever government they liked best to live
under themselves; and that if this country could, consistently with its
engagements , maintain a strict neutrality and thereby preserve peace,
it was bound to do so by motives of policy, interest, and every other
consideration."
-George Washington

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26912	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/4/2018
Subject: Re: Bowser 5.31.18 Fire Sale List

Hi Rick,

Many thanks again. These other two Bowser Fire Sale links are good reference material.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jun 2, 2018 2:37 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Bowser 5.31.18 Fire Sale List

On 6/2/2018 12:12 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> Hi Ray W., and All, Since the Bowser Fire Sale list is just a simple email to those on the regular company mailing list and not linked to their website, I am copying the list and pasting it into this message. It's the best I could do from my phone as I am not near my PC or laptop. The only items that did not copy are the logo and a few tiny illustrations. Hope this helps. W. Jay W.

Following on to my previous replay, it seems there have been 3
Bowser fire sale lists posted to that web site. Here are the other two:

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Bowser-Fire-Sale-HO-N---O-Scale-Train-Parts-Pieces-and-Last-of-their-kind.html?soid=1102299084446&aid=22DlfTP7FN8

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Bowser-Fire-Sale-HO-N---O-Scale-Train-Parts-Pieces-and-Last-of-their-kind.html?soid=1102299084446&aid=6pVi5tJxZKY

Again, these appear to be older lists but the pics are handy for
reference to the items on your list.

--

Rick Jones

Laughing is good exercise. It's like jogging on the inside.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26913	From: greenbrier614	Date: 6/4/2018
Subject: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Can anyone identify this? I had forgotten I bookmarked this auction, and I wanted to post it before eBay deletes the listing. (You may have to click the word "listing" at the top of the page in the blue strip since eBay has just started bombarding us with suggested live auctions rather than the completed one we wish to view.)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Old-HO-Scale-Very-Heavy-Locomotive-Engine-For-Parts-or-Repair/352336587918

The shell looks sand cast; it's dual-motored and is set up to pick up power from dual third rails. Any ideas?

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26914	From: trainliker	Date: 6/4/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

I’m pretty sure it’s supposed to be the Pennsylvania P5a (that’s the box cab version, not the later streamlined version). If that helps.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2018 7:40 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Old-HO-Scale-Very-Heavy-Locomotive-Engine-For-Parts-or-Repair/352336587918

The shell looks sand cast; it's dual-motored and is set up to pick up power from dual third rails. Any ideas?

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26915	From: Richard Kurz	Date: 6/5/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Hi,

It appears to be a Mantua General, Civil War engine with the motor in the tender. There should be a flexible shaft between the tender and the cab.

Cool find

Rich

On Monday, June 4, 2018, 10:40:37 PM EDT, greenbrier614@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Old-HO-Scale-Very-Heavy-Locomotive-Engine-For-Parts-or-Repair/352336587918

The shell looks sand cast; it's dual-motored and is set up to pick up power from dual third rails. Any ideas?

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26916	From: trainliker	Date: 6/5/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Attachments :

I don’t think that General is the item in question. Yesterday it showed an electric box cab. eBay is redirecting to a different item now if you use that original link Nelson provided. One of the things it says on the General page it now shows is “The listing you’re looking for is no longer availabl. Check out this similar item we found for you.”

If you go to “advanced search”, search for “352336587918”, and check the completed listings box and search, it still shows.

The title is “Vintage Old HO Scale Very Heavy Locomotive Engine For Parts or Repair” and you can also search for that in completed listings and that also shows the item.

Unfortunately, in either case, if you try to go to then go to that listing’s page, it gives you the General engine page as an alternative. But at least you can see a small picture of the box cab.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Richard Kurz beare518@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 4:22 AM
To: greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Hi,

It appears to be a Mantua General, Civil War engine with the motor in the tender. There should be a flexible shaft between the tender and the cab.

Cool find

Rich

On Monday, June 4, 2018, 10:40:37 PM EDT, greenbrier614@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Old-HO-Scale-Very-Heavy-Locomotive-Engine-For-Parts-or-Repair/352336587918

The shell looks sand cast; it's dual-motored and is set up to pick up power from dual third rails. Any ideas?

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26917	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 6/5/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]

Attachments :

Hi All, The last Image posted turned out to be a link back to the later Mantua General listing, so I will give it another try – attached is a screen cap of the mystery PRR P5-A. Though the seller said it had a sand cast body and dual motor three rail power pick up, have to caution that sellers sometimes are unfamiliar with our models and come up with some well intended, but amazing inaccurate descriptions at times. Is it really HO scale, or OO Scale? There were some pretty amazing OO models at one time - and I'm unfamiliar with almost all of them. I am not aware of any cast metal HO scale P5-A's, although the Trackside Specialties P5-A boxcab has cast cab ends soldered to an engraved brass shell. The model listed does not appear to me to be a TS model. W. Jay W.

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 6/5/18, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2018, 9:05 AM

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included
below]

I don’t think that General
is the item in question. Yesterday it showed an electric
box cab. eBay is redirecting to a different item now if
you use that original link Nelson provided. One of the
things it says on the General page it now shows is “The listing you’re
looking for is no longer availabl. Check out this similar item we
found for you.” If you go to “advanced
search”, search for “352336587918”, and check
the completed listings box and search, it still shows. The title is “Vintage Old HO
Scale Very Heavy Locomotive Engine For Parts or
Repair” and you can also search for that in completed
listings and that also shows the item. Unfortunately, in either
case, if you try to go to then go to that listing’s page,
it gives you the General engine page as an alternative.
But at least you can see a small picture of the box
cab. Charles E. “Chuck”
Kinzer Sent from Mail
for Windows 10
From:
Richard
Kurz beare518@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 4:22 AM
To: greenbrier614@...
[vintageHO]
Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? Hi, It appears to be a Mantua
General, Civil War engine with the motor in the tender.
There should be a flexible shaft between the tender and the
cab. Cool find Rich On Monday, June 4, 2018, 10:40:37
PM EDT, greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Can anyone identify this? I had
forgotten I bookmarked this auction, and I wanted to post it
before eBay deletes the listing. (You may have to click the
word "listing" at the top of the page in the blue
strip since eBay has just started bombarding us with
suggested live auctions rather than the completed one we
wish to view.) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Old-HO-Scale-Very-Heavy-Locomotive-Engine-For-Parts-or-Repair/352336587918 The shell looks sand cast;
it's dual-motored and is set up to pick up power from
dual third rails. Any ideas? Nelson

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257 --
#yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp #yiv7899062257hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp #yiv7899062257ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp .yiv7899062257ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp .yiv7899062257ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp .yiv7899062257ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7899062257ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7899062257ygrp-lc #yiv7899062257hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7899062257ygrp-lc .yiv7899062257ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span
.yiv7899062257underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 dd.yiv7899062257last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 dd.yiv7899062257last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 dd.yiv7899062257last p
span.yiv7899062257yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257file-title a, #yiv7899062257
div.yiv7899062257file-title a:active, #yiv7899062257
div.yiv7899062257file-title a:hover, #yiv7899062257
div.yiv7899062257file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a,
#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a:active,
#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 div#yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7899062257ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7899062257yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7899062257 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7899062257 input, #yiv7899062257 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7899062257
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7899062257logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-msg
p#yiv7899062257attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-reco
#yiv7899062257reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor #yiv7899062257ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor #yiv7899062257ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor #yiv7899062257ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7899062257

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26918	From: trainliker	Date: 6/5/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]

Attachments :

I can’t see an attachment. It might be because it seems to have been PNG format. You might try JPG.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 9:01 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]

On Tue, 6/5/18, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2018, 9:05 AM

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included
below]

I don’t think that General
is the item in question. Yesterday it showed an electric
box cab. eBay is redirecting to a different item now if
you use that original link Nelson provided. One of the
things it says on the General page it now shows is “The listing you’re
looking for is no longer availabl. Check out this similar item we
found for you.” If you go to “advanced
search”, search for “352336587918”, and check
the completed listings box and search, it still shows. The title is “Vintage Old HO
Scale Very Heavy Locomotive Engine For Parts or
Repair” and you can also search for that in completed
listings and that also shows the item. Unfortunately, in either
case, if you try to go to then go to that listing’s page,
it gives you the General engine page as an alternative.
But at least you can see a small picture of the box
cab. Charles E. “Chuck”
Kinzer Sent from Mail
for Windows 10
From:
Richard
Kurz beare518@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 4:22 AM
To: greenbrier614@...
[vintageHO]
Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? Hi, It appears to be a Mantua
General, Civil War engine with the motor in the tender.
There should be a flexible shaft between the tender and the
cab. Cool find Rich On Monday, June 4, 2018, 10:40:37
PM EDT, greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Can anyone identify this? I had
forgotten I bookmarked this auction, and I wanted to post it
before eBay deletes the listing. (You may have to click the
word "listing" at the top of the page in the blue
strip since eBay has just started bombarding us with
suggested live auctions rather than the completed one we
wish to view.) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Old-HO-Scale-Very-Heavy-Locomotive-Engine-For-Parts-or-Repair/352336587918 The shell looks sand cast;
it's dual-motored and is set up to pick up power from
dual third rails. Any ideas? Nelson

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257 --
#yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp #yiv7899062257hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp #yiv7899062257ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp .yiv7899062257ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp .yiv7899062257ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp .yiv7899062257ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7899062257ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7899062257ygrp-lc #yiv7899062257hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7899062257ygrp-lc .yiv7899062257ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span
.yiv7899062257underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 dd.yiv7899062257last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 dd.yiv7899062257last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 dd.yiv7899062257last p
span.yiv7899062257yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257file-title a, #yiv7899062257
div.yiv7899062257file-title a:active, #yiv7899062257
div.yiv7899062257file-title a:hover, #yiv7899062257
div.yiv7899062257file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a,
#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a:active,
#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 div#yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7899062257ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7899062257yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7899062257 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7899062257 input, #yiv7899062257 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7899062257
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7899062257logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-msg
p#yiv7899062257attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-reco
#yiv7899062257reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor #yiv7899062257ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor #yiv7899062257ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor #yiv7899062257ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7899062257

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26919	From: trainliker	Date: 6/5/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Attachments :

I did some searching of the Model Railroad “75 years” archive that cam on disk.

Searching for “Pennsylvnia P5a” I found the following:

Sep 1948, page 651 (in earlier days they page numbers advanced throughout the year): Leonard M. Blum ad including the P5a in O gauge for $175 and HO for $50. It just said “Pennsylvania” where the other two HO listings in that part of the ad said Varney and Walthers. They might have meant the road name, or it might have meant “Pennsylvania Scale Models”.

This add also said, “All Custom-Built and Recustomed Locomotives, All gauges O-OO-S-HO.

The “Brown Book” shows LMB having the P5a but 1960 is the year shown and that would have certainly been sheet brass.

The first advertisement I could find saying “Pennsylvania Scale Models” was May 1950 for an HO PCC car. So maybe the Sep 1948 P5a wasn’t theirs.

I also checked at www.hoseeker.net where they list “Pennsylvania Scale Models” as just “Pennsylvania Models”. All of the literature was for the PCC car and a couple of trolley cars. So it doesn’t seem likely they were behind the one in the Sep 1948 LMB ad, but who knows.

The earliest year I could find in the Brown Book for any brass electric locomotive of any sort was 1950 (imported by International) so the 1948 LMB ad probably had to be something other than sheet brass and may have been the one in the eBay sale. But by who. There are homebuilt things of this nature, but the LMB ad suggests there was at least one commercially available one.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 10:44 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

I can’t see an attachment. It might be because it seems to have been PNG format. You might try JPG.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 9:01 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]

Hi All, The last Image posted turned out to be a link back to the later Mantua General listing, so I will give it another try – attached is a screen cap of the mystery PRR P5-A. Though the seller said it had a sand cast body and dual motor three rail power pick up, have to caution that sellers sometimes are unfamiliar with our models and come up with some well intended, but amazing inaccurate descriptions at times.. Is it really HO scale, or OO Scale? There were some pretty amazing OO models at one time - and I'm unfamiliar with almost all of them. I am not aware of any cast metal HO scale P5-A's, although the Trackside Specialties P5-A boxcab has cast cab ends soldered to an engraved brass shell. The model listed does not appear to me to be a TS model. W. Jay W.

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 6/5/18, trainliker ckinzer@att..net [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2018, 9:05 AM

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included
below]

I don’t think that General
is the item in question. Yesterday it showed an electric
box cab. eBay is redirecting to a different item now if
you use that original link Nelson provided. One of the
things it says on the General page it now shows is “The listing you’re
looking for is no longer availabl. Check out this similar item we
found for you.” If you go to “advanced
search”, search for “352336587918”, and check
the completed listings box and search, it still shows. The title is “Vintage Old HO
Scale Very Heavy Locomotive Engine For Parts or
Repair” and you can also search for that in completed
listings and that also shows the item. Unfortunately, in either
case, if you try to go to then go to that listing’s page,
it gives you the General engine page as an alternative.
But at least you can see a small picture of the box
cab. Charles E. “Chuck”
Kinzer Sent from Mail
for Windows 10
From:
Richard
Kurz beare518@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 4:22 AM
To: greenbrier614@...
[vintageHO]
Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? Hi, It appears to be a Mantua
General, Civil War engine with the motor in the tender.
There should be a flexible shaft between the tender and the
cab. Cool find Rich On Monday, June 4, 2018, 10:40:37
PM EDT, greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Can anyone identify this? I had
forgotten I bookmarked this auction, and I wanted to post it
before eBay deletes the listing. (You may have to click the
word "listing" at the top of the page in the blue
strip since eBay has just started bombarding us with
suggested live auctions rather than the completed one we
wish to view.) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Old-HO-Scale-Very-Heavy-Locomotive-Engine-For-Parts-or-Repair/352336587918 The shell looks sand cast;
it's dual-motored and is set up to pick up power from
dual third rails. Any ideas? Nelson

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257 --
#yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp #yiv7899062257hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp #yiv7899062257ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp .yiv7899062257ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp ..yiv7899062257ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mkp .yiv7899062257ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7899062257ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7899062257ygrp-lc #yiv7899062257hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7899062257ygrp-lc .yiv7899062257ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257activity span
.yiv7899062257underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 dd.yiv7899062257last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 dd.yiv7899062257last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 dd.yiv7899062257last p
span.yiv7899062257yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257file-title a, #yiv7899062257
div.yiv7899062257file-title a:active, #yiv7899062257
div.yiv7899062257file-title a:hover, #yiv7899062257
div..yiv7899062257file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a,
#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a:active,
#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7899062257 div.yiv7899062257photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 div#yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7899062257ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7899062257yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7899062257 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7899062257 .yiv7899062257replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7899062257 input, #yiv7899062257 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7899062257
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7899062257logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-msg
p#yiv7899062257attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-reco
#yiv7899062257reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor #yiv7899062257ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor #yiv7899062257ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-sponsor #yiv7899062257ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7899062257 #yiv7899062257ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7899062257

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26920	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/5/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Hi Chuck K. Yes, as you surmised Pennsylvania Scale Models was primarily a traction manufacture whose line of diecast 3 trolleys (a Brill, a PCC and an Indiana RR lightweight interurban) was eventually taken over by modern Bowser. PSM did have one diecast Zamac locomotive though, a Fairbanks Morse "baby" Trainmaster, which Bowser continued for a while. (BTW, at a previous Bowser "fire sale" over a year ago, I purchased the remaining supply of parts for the PSM/Bowser (once very popular) traction power trucks with the vertical pole motor. If anyone needs parts for them at a nominal cost plus the price of postage, please email me off-line.)

I will look up that old 1948 LMB ad and check some of the general catalogs of that era tonight after an evening meeting. Will also try to convert that captured PNG image. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26921	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/5/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

I believe it was one of the models Jim Waterman’s father’s company, name escapes me at the moment did. Using some components from Penn Line. It is a 3 rail loco because it has the 3^rd rail pickups sticking out the side of the body. Back in the day they did that in HO as well as O.

Take care,

Chuck H

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 4:41 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26922	From: Ola_Sj=c3=b6blom	Date: 6/5/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]

This link only goes to a blank page. Yahoo at work again?

Ola

Den 2018-06-05 kl. 17:59, skrev Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO]:

> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/attachments/1371790000;_ylc=X3oDMTJyYjVlY3R1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDYXR0YWNobWVudARzbGsDdmlld09uV2ViBHN0aW1lAzE1MjgyMTQzNzM-

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26923	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 6/6/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]

Guys,

The mystery P5a is most likely a Nason OO P5. One of those came up a
couple of months ago, Sean Naylor picked it up and we identified it. His
engine actually had outside third rail pickups added, as they used to do
with O scale 3 rail locos.

Ironically, a Trackside Specialties HO P5 built up and pretty nice came
up a week later that was mismarked, and he got that one for about $100!.

Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26924	From: trainliker	Date: 6/6/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Attachments :

In this “image results” for a search for “Nason box cab” the first two photos are Nason OO box cabs. Neither is the same model as the eBay listing, but the family resemblance seems strong.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=Awr9Im2d8hdbkekAt05XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByNWU4cGh1BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=nason+box+cab&fr=yfp-t

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 3:27 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Posted by: Jim Waterman <watermaj@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26926	From: greenbrier614	Date: 6/6/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab? [1 Attachment]

Jim,

I heard from a friend on another forum that it was Sean who snapped this up. Interesting that it was Nason. I had watched a Nason Hudson sell some months ago, which was the first time I'd heard of them.

I'm not sure if my prior reply went through. It didn't seem to; Yahoo is so buggy now. Here's a direct link to the P5A listing that should work.

https://tinyurl.com/y7jb49kd

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26928	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 6/6/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

If it was Nason I would guess it was 00 and not H0.

Regards,
Walter

On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 12:48 PM, greenbrier614@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Jim,

I heard from a friend on another forum that it was Sean who snapped this up. Interesting that it was Nason. I had watched a Nason Hudson sell some months ago, which was the first time I'd heard of them.

I'm not sure if my prior reply went through. It didn't seem to; Yahoo is so buggy now. Here's a direct link to the P5A listing that should work.

https://tinyurl.com/y7jb49kd

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26929	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 6/11/2018
Subject: LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

Attachments :

Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book, "Loco 1, The Diesel." The third attached photo is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate, truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets. I am not sure about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the choice of power components and the fact that the builder stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26930	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 6/11/2018
Subject: Re: LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model [3 Attachments]

Jay,

The attachments came across blank, and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to IMGRATE to groups.io.

Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]
Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book, "Loco 1, The Diesel." The third attached photo is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate, truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets. I am not sure about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the choice of power components and the fact that the builder stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26931	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/11/2018
Subject: Re: LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model [3 Attachments]

Hi Walter, Thank you for letting me know. It is getting frustrating. Will try it again tonight, resending from a PC instead of mobile. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26932	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/12/2018
Subject: Re: LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

I still cannot access the group page, Yahoo has really f*cked me up. i would have to say you guys start a group there, advertisem it on the yeahoo group, and hope the members see it to move. Anyone shoulld be able to download the files from the yahoo page and reload them on the new page. I can't.

i Did get some footage of the berkshire running, my camera is dying so they;re more short clips, but at least you can see she runs. Let me know if these come through Okay.

Arraching the files didn.t work. I'm going to send some more messages through my work program, ome at a time, hopw this woks better

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 6/11/18, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>, "Don Dellmann" <dondellmann@...>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2018, 1:23 PM






   Jay,
The attachments came across blank,
and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to
IMGRATE to groups.io.
Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at
1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:






   [Attachment(s) from
Jay Wanczyk included below]


   Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early
scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab
switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe
Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s
or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book,
"Loco 1, The Diesel."   The third attached photo
is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC
harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed
of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an
embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both
trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD
switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate,
truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets.   I am not sure
about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to
dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe
the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the
choice of power components and the fact that the builder
stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only
sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.













#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125 --
   #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc #yiv7991827125hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc .yiv7991827125ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span
.yiv7991827125underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p
span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125file-title a, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:active, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:hover, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:active,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div#yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7991827125 input, #yiv7991827125 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7991827125
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7991827125logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg
p#yiv7991827125attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco
#yiv7991827125reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7991827125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26933	From: trainliker	Date: 6/12/2018
Subject: Re: LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

Attachments :

If the group is moved to groups.io (and I hope it is) you don’t have to hope members see it move. It is extremely seamless. Your info goes to the new group and it is business as usual for you. The only difference you see is that you then get emails from vintageHO@... instead of vintageHO@yahoogroups.com. You don’t have to do anything. All the message and photo and file archives also automatically move to the new group servicer. Other groups I am on have moved quite painlessly to groups.io from this Yahoo mess.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

On Mon, 6/11/18, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>, "Don Dellmann" <dondellmann@...>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2018, 1:23 PM






   Jay,
The attachments came across blank,
and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to
IMGRATE to groups.io.
Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at
1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:






   [Attachment(s) from
Jay Wanczyk included below]


   Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early
scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab
switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe
Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s
or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book,
"Loco 1, The Diesel."   The third attached photo
is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC
harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed
of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an
embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both
trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD
switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate,
truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets.   I am not sure
about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to
dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe
the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the
choice of power components and the fact that the builder
stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only
sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.













#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125 --
   #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc #yiv7991827125hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc .yiv7991827125ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span
.yiv7991827125underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p
span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125file-title a, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:active, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:hover, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:active,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div#yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7991827125 input, #yiv7991827125 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7991827125
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7991827125logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg
p#yiv7991827125attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco
#yiv7991827125reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7991827125

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26934	From: Dale Smith	Date: 6/12/2018
Subject: Moving the Group

Don, Walter, and Chuck and all members,

I have talked previously with Walter Bayer and Ken Clark, who helped me move the GilbertHOtrains group to groups.io and unfortunately, it probably won't go as easily as Chuck notes for this group. Unlike Don, I was not locked out of my owner functions and could undertake the proper interactions with the transfer program at groups.io. Also, gilbertHOtrains is a much smaller group with fewer photos and attachments.

I recently became aware of another way this can be done and that is with a program called PG Offline, that can download the entire contents of any Yahoo group. This afternoon, I downloaded all the messages, (26932 of them), and 1.5 gb of attachments and photos as well as 80 mb of files. So rest assured that the contents of this group is safe and preserved. I am working now on figuring out how to get this information into a groups.io group or other group that we may set up. The only problem is the size of the photos and attachments. Free accounts at groups.io only allow 1 gb of storage and even by reducing the size of the photos in the attachments to a max width of 1024 pixels, I was only able to gain 250 mb or so. I haven't checked out Google groups yet, so that might be a possibility. As to moving the members over, the easiest way would be to send an invitation from the new group complete with links for easy sign up. It could simply be sent to the old Yahoo group.

Maybe we can pare down some of the photos, or put them elsewhere on the net. I do have space on the server that hosts gilbertho.org but I would need to figure how to host them there in an easily accessible form. They would, of course, be in their own space on the server.

I appreciate anyone's ideas and suggestions on this but I am willing to do what it takes to get us on a stable platform, with Don's approval, of course.

Dale Smith

On 6/12/2018 7:14 PM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

If the group is moved to groups.io (and I hope it is) you don’t have to hope members see it move. It is extremely seamless. Your info goes to the new group and it is business as usual for you. The only difference you see is that you then get emails from vintageHO@... instead of vintageHO@yahoogroups.com. You don’t have to do anything. All the message and photo and file archives also automatically move to the new group servicer. Other groups I am on have moved quite painlessly to groups.io from this Yahoo mess.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

I still cannot access the group page, Yahoo has really f*cked me up. i would have to say you guys start a group there, advertisem it on the yeahoo group, and hope the members see it to move. Anyone shoulld be able to download the files from the yahoo page and reload them on the new page. I can't.

i Did get some footage of the berkshire running, my camera is dying so they;re more short clips, but at least you can see she runs. Let me know if these come through Okay.

Arraching the files didn.t work. I'm going to send some more messages through my work program, ome at a time, hopw this woks better

Don

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/11/18, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>, "Don Dellmann" <dondellmann@...>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2018, 1:23 PM






   Jay,
The attachments came across blank,
and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to
IMGRATE to groups.io.
Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at
1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:






   [Attachment(s) from
Jay Wanczyk included below]


   Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early
scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab
switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe
Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s
or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book,
"Loco 1, The Diesel."   The third attached photo
is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC
harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed
of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an
embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both
trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD
switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate,
truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets.   I am not sure
about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to
dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe
the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the
choice of power components and the fact that the builder
stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only
sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.













#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125 --
   #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc #yiv7991827125hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc .yiv7991827125ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span
.yiv7991827125underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p
span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125file-title a, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:active, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:hover, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:active,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div#yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7991827125 input, #yiv7991827125 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7991827125
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7991827125logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg
p#yiv7991827125attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco
#yiv7991827125reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7991827125

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26935	From: trainliker	Date: 6/12/2018
Subject: Re: Moving the Group

Attachments :

I’m not positive, but I think groups.io has the means to perhaps automatically limit the resolution of photos to something less than the ludicrous resolution that many post. Maybe there is a way to do it en masse. And maybe a way to effect that as photos come in.

But I may be wrong about that. On another group in groups.io, it has been asked that people post only reasonable resolution photos. I did a quick look and noticed photos posted at excessively large 1 to 3 meg that only needed to be maybe 100K to 300K. However, I looked at a lot of the “email attachment” photos and they were all modest in size. So either people are being unusually responsible, or there IS something dealing with big file size photos for at least photos as email attachments.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

Don, Walter, and Chuck and all members,

I appreciate anyone's ideas and suggestions on this but I am willing to do what it takes to get us on a stable platform, with Don's approval, of course.

Dale Smith

On 6/12/2018 7:14 PM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

If the group is moved to groups.io (and I hope it is) you don’t have to hope members see it move. It is extremely seamless. Your info goes to the new group and it is business as usual for you. The only difference you see is that you then get emails from vintageHO@... instead of vintageHO@yahoogroups.com. You don’t have to do anything. All the message and photo and file archives also automatically move to the new group servicer. Other groups I am on have moved quite painlessly to groups.io from this Yahoo mess.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

I still cannot access the group page, Yahoo has really f*cked me up. i would have to say you guys start a group there, advertisem it on the yeahoo group, and hope the members see it to move. Anyone shoulld be able to download the files from the yahoo page and reload them on the new page. I can't.

i Did get some footage of the berkshire running, my camera is dying so they;re more short clips, but at least you can see she runs. Let me know if these come through Okay.

Arraching the files didn.t work. I'm going to send some more messages through my work program, ome at a time, hopw this woks better

Don

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/11/18, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>, "Don Dellmann" <dondellmann@...>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2018, 1:23 PM






   Jay,
The attachments came across blank,
and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to
IMGRATE to groups.io.
Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at
1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:






   [Attachment(s) from
Jay Wanczyk included below]


   Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early
scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab
switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe
Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s
or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book,
"Loco 1, The Diesel."   The third attached photo
is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC
harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed
of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an
embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both
trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD
switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate,
truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets.   I am not sure
about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to
dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe
the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the
choice of power components and the fact that the builder
stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only
sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.













#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125 --
   #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc #yiv7991827125hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc .yiv7991827125ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span
.yiv7991827125underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p
span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125file-title a, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:active, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:hover, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:active,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div#yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7991827125 input, #yiv7991827125 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7991827125
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7991827125logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg
p#yiv7991827125attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco
#yiv7991827125reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7991827125

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26936	From: Kenneth Clark	Date: 6/13/2018
Subject: Re: Moving the Group [1 Attachment]

I just transferred a YG list with 3.3GB of images. I set maximum image size for the new list for photos and files at 1024 x 1024 pixels.

After transfer total image storage was less than 700MB

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 12, 2018 9:54 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Moving the Group [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

Don, Walter, and Chuck and all members,

I appreciate anyone's ideas and suggestions on this but I am willing to do what it takes to get us on a stable platform, with Don's approval, of course.

Dale Smith

On 6/12/2018 7:14 PM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

If the group is moved to groups.io (and I hope it is) you don’t have to hope members see it move. It is extremely seamless. Your info goes to the new group and it is business as usual for you. The only difference you see is that you then get emails from vintageHO@... instead of vintageHO@yahoogroups.com. You don’t have to do anything. All the message and photo and file archives also automatically move to the new group servicer. Other groups I am on have moved quite painlessly to groups.io from this Yahoo mess.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

I still cannot access the group page, Yahoo has really f*cked me up. i would have to say you guys start a group there, advertisem it on the yeahoo group, and hope the members see it to move. Anyone shoulld be able to download the files from the yahoo page and reload them on the new page. I can't.

i Did get some footage of the berkshire running, my camera is dying so they;re more short clips, but at least you can see she runs. Let me know if these come through Okay.

Arraching the files didn.t work. I'm going to send some more messages through my work program, ome at a time, hopw this woks better

Don

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/11/18, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>, "Don Dellmann" <dondellmann@...>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2018, 1:23 PM






   Jay,
The attachments came across blank,
and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to
IMGRATE to groups.io.
Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at
1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:






   [Attachment(s) from
Jay Wanczyk included below]


   Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early
scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab
switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe
Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s
or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book,
"Loco 1, The Diesel."   The third attached photo
is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC
harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed
of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an
embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both
trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD
switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate,
truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets.   I am not sure
about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to
dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe
the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the
choice of power components and the fact that the builder
stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only
sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.













#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125 --
   #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc #yiv7991827125hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc .yiv7991827125ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span
.yiv7991827125underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p
span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125file-title a, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:active, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:hover, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div..yiv7991827125photo-title a,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:active,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div#yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7991827125 input, #yiv7991827125 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7991827125
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7991827125logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg
p#yiv7991827125attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco
#yiv7991827125reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7991827125

Virus-free. www..avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26937	From: david vartanoff	Date: 6/13/2018
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3999

seems to me that as members we should download and store any files/pix rather than expect the group server to be the ultimate archive. Asimple policy might well be a 90 limit on group files. I prefer the best possible image so I am willing to 4 times a year go hunting groups I belong to for downloads. Not only is memory ever cheaper, but none of us need keep all.

My tuppence.

On 06/13/2018 06:47 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

I appreciate anyone's ideas and suggestions on this but

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26938	From: Dale Smith	Date: 6/13/2018
Subject: Re: Moving the Group

By and large the photos on Vintage HO were reasonable size. Most were 800x600. I ran them through a batch resizing app on Irfanview and that is where I got them down to 500 gb for the attachments. I set maximum width at 1024, then ran them again with maximum height set to that same dimension. Maybe the groups.io puts in a bit of compression also. With Don's approval, will you work with me to get this group transferred?

The download program saves the photos in directories by album and the attachments in one folder. I am not sure how the messages are stored or where yet.

Dale

On 6/12/2018 10:07 PM, Kenneth Clark kenrclark@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I just transferred a YG list with 3.3GB of images. I set maximum image size for the new list for photos and files at 1024 x 1024 pixels.

After transfer total image storage was less than 700MB

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 12, 2018 9:54 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Moving the Group [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

I’m not positive, but I think groups.io has the means to perhaps automatically limit the resolution of photos to something less than the ludicrous resolution that many post. Maybe there is a way to do it en masse. And maybe a way to effect that as photos come in.

But I may be wrong about that. On another group in groups.io, it has been asked that people post only reasonable resolution photos. I did a quick look and noticed photos posted at excessively large 1 to 3 meg that only needed to be maybe 100K to 300K. However, I looked at a lot of the “email attachment” photos and they were all modest in size. So either people are being unusually responsible, or there IS something dealing with big file size photos for at least photos as email attachments.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

Don, Walter, and Chuck and all members,

I have talked previously with Walter Bayer and Ken Clark, who helped me move the GilbertHOtrains group to groups.io and unfortunately, it probably won't go as easily as Chuck notes for this group. Unlike Don, I was not locked out of my owner functions and could undertake the proper interactions with the transfer program at groups.io. Also, gilbertHOtrains is a much smaller group with fewer photos and attachments.

I recently became aware of another way this can be done and that is with a program called PG Offline, that can download the entire contents of any Yahoo group. This afternoon, I downloaded all the messages, (26932 of them), and 1.5 gb of attachments and photos as well as 80 mb of files. So rest assured that the contents of this group is safe and preserved. I am working now on figuring out how to get this information into a groups.io group or other group that we may set up. The only problem is the size of the photos and attachments.   Free accounts at groups.io only allow 1 gb of storage and even by reducing the size of the photos in the attachments to a max width of 1024 pixels, I was only able to gain 250 mb or so. I haven't checked out Google groups yet, so that might be a possibility. As to moving the members over, the easiest way would be to send an invitation from the new group complete with links for easy sign up. It could simply be sent to the old Yahoo group.

Maybe we can pare down some of the photos, or put them elsewhere on the net. I do have space on the server that hosts gilbertho.org but I would need to figure how to host them there in an easily accessible form. They would, of course, be in their own space on the server.

I appreciate anyone's ideas and suggestions on this but I am willing to do what it takes to get us on a stable platform, with Don's approval, of course.

Dale Smith

On 6/12/2018 7:14 PM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

If the group is moved to groups.io (and I hope it is) you don’t have to hope members see it move. It is extremely seamless. Your info goes to the new group and it is business as usual for you. The only difference you see is that you then get emails from vintageHO@... instead of vintageHO@yahoogroups.com. You don’t have to do anything. All the message and photo and file archives also automatically move to the new group servicer. Other groups I am on have moved quite painlessly to groups.io from this Yahoo mess.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

I still cannot access the group page, Yahoo has really f*cked me up. i would have to say you guys start a group there, advertisem it on the yeahoo group, and hope the members see it to move. Anyone shoulld be able to download the files from the yahoo page and reload them on the new page. I can't.

i Did get some footage of the berkshire running, my camera is dying so they;re more short clips, but at least you can see she runs. Let me know if these come through Okay.

Arraching the files didn.t work. I'm going to send some more messages through my work program, ome at a time, hopw this woks better

Don

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/11/18, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>, "Don Dellmann" <dondellmann@...>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2018, 1:23 PM






   Jay,
The attachments came across blank,
and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to
IMGRATE to groups.io.
Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at
1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:






   [Attachment(s) from
Jay Wanczyk included below]


   Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early
scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab
switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe
Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s
or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book,
"Loco 1, The Diesel."   The third attached photo
is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC
harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed
of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an
embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both
trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD
switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate,
truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets.   I am not sure
about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to
dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe
the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the
choice of power components and the fact that the builder
stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only
sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.













#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125 --
   #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc #yiv7991827125hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc .yiv7991827125ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span
.yiv7991827125underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p
span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125file-title a, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:active, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:hover, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div..yiv7991827125photo-title a,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:active,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div#yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7991827125 input, #yiv7991827125 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7991827125
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7991827125logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg
p#yiv7991827125attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco
#yiv7991827125reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7991827125

Virus-free. www..avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26939	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 6/13/2018
Subject: Re: Moving the Group

Dale and Don, is there anything I can help you with?

Regards,
Walter

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

By and large the photos on Vintage HO were reasonable size. Most were 800x600.   I ran them through a batch resizing app on Irfanview and that is where I got them down to 500 gb for the attachments. I set maximum width at 1024, then ran them again with maximum height set to that same dimension. Maybe the groups.io puts in a bit of compression also. With Don's approval, will you work with me to get this group transferred?

The download program saves the photos in directories by album and the attachments in one folder. I am not sure how the messages are stored or where yet.

Dale

On 6/12/2018 10:07 PM, Kenneth Clark kenrclark@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I just transferred a YG list with 3.3GB of images. I set maximum image size for the new list for photos and files at 1024 x 1024 pixels.

After transfer total image storage was less than 700MB

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 12, 2018 9:54 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Moving the Group [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

I’m not positive, but I think groups.io has the means to perhaps automatically limit the resolution of photos to something less than the ludicrous resolution that many post. Maybe there is a way to do it en masse. And maybe a way to effect that as photos come in.

But I may be wrong about that. On another group in groups.io, it has been asked that people post only reasonable resolution photos. I did a quick look and noticed photos posted at excessively large 1 to 3 meg that only needed to be maybe 100K to 300K. However, I looked at a lot of the “email attachment” photos and they were all modest in size. So either people are being unusually responsible, or there IS something dealing with big file size photos for at least photos as email attachments.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

Don, Walter, and Chuck and all members,

I have talked previously with Walter Bayer and Ken Clark, who helped me move the GilbertHOtrains group to groups.io and unfortunately, it probably won't go as easily as Chuck notes for this group. Unlike Don, I was not locked out of my owner functions and could undertake the proper interactions with the transfer program at groups.io. Also, gilbertHOtrains is a much smaller group with fewer photos and attachments.

I recently became aware of another way this can be done and that is with a program called PG Offline, that can download the entire contents of any Yahoo group. This afternoon, I downloaded all the messages, (26932 of them), and 1.5 gb of attachments and photos as well as 80 mb of files. So rest assured that the contents of this group is safe and preserved. I am working now on figuring out how to get this information into a groups.io group or other group that we may set up. The only problem is the size of the photos and attachments.   Free accounts at groups.io only allow 1 gb of storage and even by reducing the size of the photos in the attachments to a max width of 1024 pixels, I was only able to gain 250 mb or so. I haven't checked out Google groups yet, so that might be a possibility. As to moving the members over, the easiest way would be to send an invitation from the new group complete with links for easy sign up. It could simply be sent to the old Yahoo group.

Maybe we can pare down some of the photos, or put them elsewhere on the net. I do have space on the server that hosts gilbertho.org but I would need to figure how to host them there in an easily accessible form. They would, of course, be in their own space on the server.

I appreciate anyone's ideas and suggestions on this but I am willing to do what it takes to get us on a stable platform, with Don's approval, of course.

Dale Smith

On 6/12/2018 7:14 PM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

If the group is moved to groups.io (and I hope it is) you don’t have to hope members see it move. It is extremely seamless. Your info goes to the new group and it is business as usual for you. The only difference you see is that you then get emails from vintageHO@... instead of vintageHO@yahoogroups.com. You don’t have to do anything. All the message and photo and file archives also automatically move to the new group servicer. Other groups I am on have moved quite painlessly to groups.io from this Yahoo mess.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

I still cannot access the group page, Yahoo has really f*cked me up. i would have to say you guys start a group there, advertisem it on the yeahoo group, and hope the members see it to move. Anyone shoulld be able to download the files from the yahoo page and reload them on the new page. I can't.

i Did get some footage of the berkshire running, my camera is dying so they;re more short clips, but at least you can see she runs. Let me know if these come through Okay.

Arraching the files didn.t work. I'm going to send some more messages through my work program, ome at a time, hopw this woks better

Don

------------------------------ --------------
On Mon, 6/11/18, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>, "Don Dellmann" <dondellmann@...>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2018, 1:23 PM






   Jay,
The attachments came across blank,
and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to
IMGRATE to groups.io.
Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at
1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:






   [Attachment(s) from
Jay Wanczyk included below]


   Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early
scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab
switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe
Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s
or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book,
"Loco 1, The Diesel."   The third attached photo
is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC
harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed
of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an
embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both
trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD
switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate,
truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets.   I am not sure
about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to
dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe
the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the
choice of power components and the fact that the builder
stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only
sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.













#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125 --
   #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial; margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%; font-weight:700;line-height: 122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration: none;}
#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc #yiv7991827125hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size: 78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc .yiv7991827125ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size: 11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity {
background-color:#e0ecee; float:left;font-family: Verdana;font-size:10px; padding:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration: none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span
..yiv7991827125underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach {
clear:both;display:table;font- family:Arial;font-size:12px; padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px; }

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom: 5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size: 13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font- weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family: Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p
span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125file-title a, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:active, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:hover, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div..yiv7991827125photo-title a,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:active,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div#yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size: 10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px; overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px; overflow:hidden;text-align: center;white-space:nowrap; width:64px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding- right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7991827125 input, #yiv7991827125 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7991827125
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7991827125logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg
p#yiv7991827125attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700; }

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco
#yiv7991827125reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700; }

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding: 0px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text- decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type: square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7991827125

Virus-free. www..avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26940	From: Kenneth Clark	Date: 6/13/2018
Subject: Re: Moving the Group

Dale,

Sure.

While groups.io limits size by pixel count, it doesn't change image type (e.g. bmp), which also makes a big impact on storage size.

Also the groups.io resizing does not change the image ratio so it appears pretty seamless and it is done very quickly.

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 13, 2018 8:39 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

The download program saves the photos in directories by album and the attachments in one folder. I am not sure how the messages are stored or where yet.

Dale

On 6/12/2018 10:07 PM, Kenneth Clark kenrclark@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I just transferred a YG list with 3.3GB of images. I set maximum image size for the new list for photos and files at 1024 x 1024 pixels.

After transfer total image storage was less than 700MB

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 12, 2018 9:54 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Moving the Group [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

I’m not positive, but I think groups.io has the means to perhaps automatically limit the resolution of photos to something less than the ludicrous resolution that many post. Maybe there is a way to do it en masse. And maybe a way to effect that as photos come in.

But I may be wrong about that. On another group in groups.io, it has been asked that people post only reasonable resolution photos. I did a quick look and noticed photos posted at excessively large 1 to 3 meg that only needed to be maybe 100K to 300K. However, I looked at a lot of the “email attachment” photos and they were all modest in size. So either people are being unusually responsible, or there IS something dealing with big file size photos for at least photos as email attachments.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

Don, Walter, and Chuck and all members,

I have talked previously with Walter Bayer and Ken Clark, who helped me move the GilbertHOtrains group to groups.io and unfortunately, it probably won't go as easily as Chuck notes for this group. Unlike Don, I was not locked out of my owner functions and could undertake the proper interactions with the transfer program at groups.io. Also, gilbertHOtrains is a much smaller group with fewer photos and attachments.

I recently became aware of another way this can be done and that is with a program called PG Offline, that can download the entire contents of any Yahoo group. This afternoon, I downloaded all the messages, (26932 of them), and 1.5 gb of attachments and photos as well as 80 mb of files. So rest assured that the contents of this group is safe and preserved. I am working now on figuring out how to get this information into a groups.io group or other group that we may set up. The only problem is the size of the photos and attachments.   Free accounts at groups.io only allow 1 gb of storage and even by reducing the size of the photos in the attachments to a max width of 1024 pixels, I was only able to gain 250 mb or so. I haven't checked out Google groups yet, so that might be a possibility. As to moving the members over, the easiest way would be to send an invitation from the new group complete with links for easy sign up. It could simply be sent to the old Yahoo group.

Maybe we can pare down some of the photos, or put them elsewhere on the net. I do have space on the server that hosts gilbertho.org but I would need to figure how to host them there in an easily accessible form. They would, of course, be in their own space on the server.

I appreciate anyone's ideas and suggestions on this but I am willing to do what it takes to get us on a stable platform, with Don's approval, of course.

Dale Smith

On 6/12/2018 7:14 PM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

If the group is moved to groups.io (and I hope it is) you don’t have to hope members see it move. It is extremely seamless. Your info goes to the new group and it is business as usual for you. The only difference you see is that you then get emails from vintageHO@... instead of vintageHO@yahoogroups.com. You don’t have to do anything. All the message and photo and file archives also automatically move to the new group servicer. Other groups I am on have moved quite painlessly to groups.io from this Yahoo mess.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

I still cannot access the group page, Yahoo has really f*cked me up. i would have to say you guys start a group there, advertisem it on the yeahoo group, and hope the members see it to move. Anyone shoulld be able to download the files from the yahoo page and reload them on the new page. I can't.

i Did get some footage of the berkshire running, my camera is dying so they;re more short clips, but at least you can see she runs. Let me know if these come through Okay.

Arraching the files didn.t work. I'm going to send some more messages through my work program, ome at a time, hopw this woks better

Don

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/11/18, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>, "Don Dellmann" <dondellmann@...>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2018, 1:23 PM






   Jay,
The attachments came across blank,
and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to
IMGRATE to groups.io.
Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at
1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:






   [Attachment(s) from
Jay Wanczyk included below]


   Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early
scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab
switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe
Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s
or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book,
"Loco 1, The Diesel."   The third attached photo
is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC
harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed
of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an
embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both
trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD
switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate,
truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets.   I am not sure
about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to
dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe
the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the
choice of power components and the fact that the builder
stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only
sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.













#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125 --
   #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc #yiv7991827125hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc .yiv7991827125ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span
..yiv7991827125underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 dd.yiv7991827125last p
span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125file-title a, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:active, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:hover, #yiv7991827125
div.yiv7991827125file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div..yiv7991827125photo-title a,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:active,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7991827125 div.yiv7991827125photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 div#yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7991827125yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7991827125 input, #yiv7991827125 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7991827125
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7991827125logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-msg
p#yiv7991827125attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco
#yiv7991827125reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor #yiv7991827125ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7991827125

Virus-free. www..avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26941	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/18/2018
Subject: Re: Moving the Group [1 Attachment]

Hello, Kenneth Clark, Don D., and All, I am a member of that other group (NYCTMG) with the 3.3GB of images you helped transfer to groups.io and have just signed on and sent my first message there. Past messages are easily searchable which is important in preserving information and doing model research. Ken, I appreciate all that you accomplished for us over there and look forward to our group making the jump as well. As soon it's done, I will re-post the photos of the L.V. #76 Brill box cab model I wrote about last week and will attach the photos so everyone can see the model this time! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26942	From: Larry	Date: 6/19/2018
Subject: Re: Moving the Group

Please don't forget to send a link to the new io group as not all members are receiving or have signed up for io.

Larry Miller III

From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

------------------------------------

Posted by: the_plainsman@...

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

<*> Your email settings:

Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:

vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com

vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:

https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26943	From: Kenneth Clark	Date: 6/19/2018
Subject: Re: Moving the Group

W. Jay W.

The key transfer issue is resizing photographs in storage on your list on YG.

So far limiting max photo size to 1024 x 1024 pixels seems to reduce phot0 storage 80-90%

I would recommend the same restrictions even if you don't have a lot of photos stored. Being able to post and access photos

has been a bigger plus than any negatives of photo size limitations. I think for most list members 1024 x 1024 pixels is full screen,

and that may be oversized for older PC/monitors.

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 9:10 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26944	From: Kent Hurley	Date: 6/19/2018
Subject: Flat car maker

Attachments :

Anyone know who might be the maker of this flat car.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26945	From: Larry	Date: 6/19/2018
Subject: Re: Flat car maker [3 Attachments]

No attachments and the links aren't working either.

Larry Miller III

From: "Kent Hurley nvrr49@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: "yahoogroups, Vintage HO" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 8:59 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Flat car maker [3 Attachments]

<*>[Attachment(s) from Kent Hurley included below]

Anyone know who might be the maker of this flat car.

<*>Attachment(s) from Kent Hurley:

<*> 3 of 3 Photo(s) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/attachments/1173784408;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaGQ4ZmsxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDYXR0YWNobWVudARzbGsDdmlld09uV2ViBHN0aW1lAzE1Mjk0NTk5OTA-

<*> IMG_3521.jpg

<*> IMG_3522.jpg

<*> IMG_3523.jpg

------------------------------------

Posted by: Kent Hurley <nvrr49@...>

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

<*> Your email settings:

Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:

vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com

vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:

https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Kent in KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26946	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/21/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Guys.. Catching up on this one late..

Yes, the original listing on this string I purchased. It was an OO scale Nason.

The Other engine Jim is referring to was also a P5a, but was made by Trackside Specialties.

Honestly I feel like I stole both. I was hoping the Nason was an HO version as I do not collect OO scale, but I do not mind keeping it for a little while.

I am very grateful to Jim Waterman for helping me identify both. At times lately I have been kind of lost without the help from Jim Heckard to identify these old pieces .

Sincerely,

Sean

On Wednesday, June 6, 2018, 6:27:40 AM EDT, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26947	From: Dale Smith	Date: 6/21/2018
Subject: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

With Don's blessing, we have set up a new group on groups.io. The name
is the same, Vintage HO Operators and you can address mail to
vintageho@....

We still have a few kinks to work out since we weren't able to use the
easy transfer mechanism because Don has been locked out by Yahoo.   I
will be transferring the old photo albums, but right now I am doing it
one album at a time, so it could take a while. I am checking with
groups.io to see if there is any way that can be done faster.   Also,
the old messages and attachments are not yet available and I am also
working on a way to transfer them. The worst case scenario is that they
will be available on a companion website I can set up.

In the meantime, we can bring the conversations over to the groups.io
side. All you need to do is set up an account at groups.io and join the
new group.   Please use the same email address at which you received
mail at Yahoo Groups.   This may or may not be the same email as your
Yahoo ID. Here is a link: https://groups.io/g/VintageHO If Yahoo strips
out the link, just copy and paste into your browser. This will enable
us to at least use the photo and attachment functions going forward.   I
am sure we can get the other issues resolved.

You may see a delay in the appearance of your posts as groups.io always
set users up to have their first post moderated.   After that you are
unmoderated. This helps us restrict the membership to those who are
really interested in Vintage HO and keeps spammers at bay.

Dale Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26948	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/21/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

As near as I can tell, I am now a member. Good Luck.
--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 6/21/18, Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com, vintageho@...
Date: Thursday, June 21, 2018, 11:04 PM

With Don's blessing, we have set up a new group
on groups.io. The name

is the same, Vintage HO Operators and you can address mail
to

vintageho@....

We still have a few kinks to work out since we weren't
able to use the

easy transfer mechanism because Don has been locked out by
Yahoo.   I

will be transferring the old photo albums, but right now I
am doing it

one album at a time, so it could take a while. I am checking
with

groups.io to see if there is any way that can be done
faster.   Also,

the old messages and attachments are not yet available and I
am also

working on a way to transfer them. The worst case scenario
is that they

will be available on a companion website I can set up.

In the meantime, we can bring the conversations over to the
groups.io

side. All you need to do is set up an account at groups.io
and join the

new group.   Please use the same email address at which
you received

mail at Yahoo Groups.   This may or may not be the same
email as your

Yahoo ID. Here is a link: https://groups.io/g/VintageHO If
Yahoo strips

out the link, just copy and paste into your browser. This
will enable

us to at least use the photo and attachment functions going
forward.   I

am sure we can get the other issues resolved.

You may see a delay in the appearance of your posts as
groups.io always

set users up to have their first post moderated.   After
that you are

unmoderated. This helps us restrict the membership to
those who are

really interested in Vintage HO and keeps spammers at
bay.

Dale Smith

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854 --
#yiv3174871854ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mkp #yiv3174871854hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mkp #yiv3174871854ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mkp .yiv3174871854ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mkp .yiv3174871854ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mkp .yiv3174871854ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3174871854ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3174871854ygrp-lc #yiv3174871854hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3174871854ygrp-lc .yiv3174871854ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854activity span
.yiv3174871854underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3174871854 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3174871854 dd.yiv3174871854last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3174871854 dd.yiv3174871854last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3174871854 dd.yiv3174871854last p
span.yiv3174871854yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv3174871854 div.yiv3174871854attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3174871854 div.yiv3174871854attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv3174871854 div.yiv3174871854file-title a, #yiv3174871854
div.yiv3174871854file-title a:active, #yiv3174871854
div.yiv3174871854file-title a:hover, #yiv3174871854
div.yiv3174871854file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3174871854 div.yiv3174871854photo-title a,
#yiv3174871854 div.yiv3174871854photo-title a:active,
#yiv3174871854 div.yiv3174871854photo-title a:hover,
#yiv3174871854 div.yiv3174871854photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3174871854 div#yiv3174871854ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv3174871854ygrp-msg p a span.yiv3174871854yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv3174871854 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv3174871854 .yiv3174871854replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv3174871854 input, #yiv3174871854 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv3174871854
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-mlmsg #yiv3174871854logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-msg
p#yiv3174871854attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-reco
#yiv3174871854reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-sponsor #yiv3174871854ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-sponsor #yiv3174871854ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-sponsor #yiv3174871854ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv3174871854 #yiv3174871854ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv3174871854

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26949	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 6/22/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Hey Sean

I miss Jim Heckard as well. Anybody know what his condition is? Haven't
heard in a long time.

Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26950	From: Larry	Date: 6/22/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Thanks for sending!

Several groups have transferred over without any notice and members are left in a dying group without knowing what happened.

A common courtesy of notification and a link posted to old group is sadly lacking.

A tip of the hat and looking forward to the new arrangement.

Larry Miller III

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26951	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 6/22/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Before I jump - Having got rid of all my American outline HO models, is there anyone running old (pre 1970) European HO models?

RogerW - Italian Railways Society in Gt Britain.

From: "Larry mrncartoon@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 22 June 2018, 12:39
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Thanks for sending!

Several groups have transferred over without any notice and members are left in a dying group without knowing what happened.

A common courtesy of notification and a link posted to old group is sadly lacking.

A tip of the hat and looking forward to the new arrangement.

Larry Miller III

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26952	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/22/2018
Subject: Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Attachments :

Hi Jim,

I answered you question on the I/O group.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 6:36 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old 3 Rail HO Boxcab?

Hey Sean

I miss Jim Heckard as well. Anybody know what his condition is? Haven't
heard in a long time.

Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26953	From: Kenneth Clark	Date: 6/22/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

I've assisted in the transfer of over a dozen lists from YG to groups.io.

What I had not realized was how many YG list members had selected "no e-mail" for their list subscription.

That meant there was no effective way to contact list members using YG. On some lists this was a sizeable

portion of the members. To prevent a repeat, I set up lists on groups.io without the "no e-mail" option.

Instead groups.io has a "Special Notices Only" delivery option. Upon transfer, list members with a "no e-mails"

subscription are converted to "Special Notices" delivery. At least that way we are able to contact all members

if there is news about the list that needs to be shared.

I've always posted to my own lists when transferring to groups.io, the first one I conducted a poll to test the waters.

However after the transfer I found out how many members I had been unable to contact. Lesson learned.

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

Thanks for sending!

Several groups have transferred over without any notice and members are left in a dying group without knowing what happened.

A common courtesy of notification and a link posted to old group is sadly lacking.

A tip of the hat and looking forward to the new arrangement.

Larry Miller III

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26954	From: SP4149	Date: 6/22/2018
Subject: Re: the problems in Yahoo Groups (YG)

Quietly over a year ago YahooGroups required list owners to have Yahoo mail accounts, or else, no access.

Oath Recently went further in regard to the Oath "Pledge of Obedience"

YahooGroup list owners were sent notice of the "Oath Pledge of Obedience" to their Yahoo.mail accounts. Many, not like me never read messages in their Yahoo.mail accounts. May 18, 2018

And many never saw the threat at the end of the message. (see below)

If you ignored the "Oath Pledge", don't expect support from Oath to access your list on YG.

----- Forwarded Message -----

From: Yahoo <Yahoo@...>

To: "sp4149@..." <sp4149@...>

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018, 11:45:15 AM PDT

Subject: Reminder: Important update to our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy

We have a new unified Terms of Service and Privacy Policy

Dear Member,
(sp4149@...)

In June 2017, Yahoo and AOL joined forces to create Oath, a media and technology company with a dynamic house of global brands, and a part of Verizon. It's an exciting venture that we believe will bring a host of new innovations and digital experiences for our users. With Verizon, Oath can provide you with better experiences and services.

As part of this collaboration, we're asking all users of Oath owned sites and services to agree to the new unified Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, which will help us continue to deliver and build on great digital experiences for you.

Please take some time to review and agree to the new unified Terms of Service and Privacy Policy by clicking on the button below. If you have already agreed, no additional action is needed.

Review and agree now

To help you understand some of the key updates, we've provided a summary below as well as a description of what tools are available to you to manage your data and experience within Oath's house of brands. Please note that this summary is not exhaustive and we encourage you to review the updated versions of our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. Those terms and not this summary will govern your relationship with Oath. To learn more about our approach to privacy, click here.

Terms of Service Updates Summary

We've added a mutual arbitration clause. Hopefully, disputes will never be an issue, but in the case of one, this allows a third-party arbitrator to help us resolve them. We've also added a class action waiver. These provisions are an important part of our relationship with you, so please read them carefully.
We've specified the legal entity that provides each service to you. For some services, this may be a different entity than the entity that previously provided the service. We've also reserved the right to transfer the providing entity for each service in the future.
General provisions that apply to billing, auto-renewal, and refunds have been added. Unless the additional terms for a service override the Terms of Service, these provisions apply to your use of our paid services.
Applicability of Terms. If you are using our services on behalf of another account owner (e.g., as an administrator, consultant or analyst) or on behalf of a company, business or other entity, the Terms of Service apply to your activities and are binding on the account owner or entity.
Indemnity for Non-Personal Use. If you are using our Services on behalf of a company, business or other entity, or if you are using our Services for commercial purposes, we've added an indemnity provision, which requires you and the entity to protect us against certain legal actions.
We've updated our choice of law and forum provisions. New York law now governs and New York, New York is the designated forum.

Privacy Policy Updates Summary

We've made it more readable! We took care to make it easier for you to understand our services and our privacy practices.
We've updated how we collect and use data. We've updated some of the ways we collect and analyze user data in order to deliver services, content, and relevant advertising to you and protect against abuse. This includes:
- Analyzing content and information (including emails, instant messages, posts, photos, attachments, and other communications) when you use our services. This allows us to deliver, personalize and develop relevant features, content, advertising and services
- Linking your activity on third-party sites and apps with information we have about you
- Providing anonymized and aggregated reports to other parties regarding user trends
We've joined Verizon. By joining Verizon, Oath and its affiliates may share the information we receive among Verizon. Learn more about Verizon's privacy practices.
New information regarding personalization. We've included new information explaining how we combine data among our services and across your devices and Oath accounts. This allows us to provide more personalized content and services.
We've updated user choices. We've provided additional information about your choices when using our services, and given you control in our Privacy Controlssection.

What You Need to Do

We have designed these changes to help improve your experience with Oath and its brands. To review and agree to the new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, please click the button below. These changes go into effect as soon as you consent.

Review and agree now

Please note that although our services will continue to be available under the existing terms for now, you will eventually need to agree to the new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy in order to continue to use our services. If you have any questions or need additional help, please refer to this link.

Thank you for your continued loyalty and support.

Sincerely,
Oath

ken clark

www.shastasprings.com

On 2018-06-22 07:18, Walter Bayer II wrote:

Hi Don,

Looks like you are not the only owner that cannot access the group he owns. See

https://forums.yahoo.net/t5/Gr oups/bd-p/Groups

Regards,
Walter

-

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26955	From: SP4149	Date: 6/22/2018
Subject: Re: [RepowerAndRegear] the problems in Yahoo Groups (YG)

Yes. What has been happening is that these Oath owned e-mail services view increased message traffic from groups.io as spam. Under current internet conventions groups.io has to unsubscribe e-mail addresses marked as spam by e-mail hosts. What groups.io has been doing is immediately inviting the member to rejoin and explaining why they were unsubscribed. The Oath pledge has just added another wrinkle to this e-mail kerfuffle. Once I took the Oath Pledge for access to my aol.com email, my access to Yahoo groups improved. And I could see my AOL emails again.

ken clark

www.shastasprings.com

On 2018-06-22 13:15, Randy Largent wrote:

Really!
They can force our IO Groups to terminate us?

If that happens I assume we can re-subscribe?

RandyL

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 4:11 PM, SP4149 <ken@...> wrote:

Randy,

Both. Oath published a business plan as a mobile media company, so desktop software support like e-mail and lists at YahooGroups are not in that target group. Technical support access from Verizon ended last month and so far Oath has not stepped up. Of a greater concern is that they have been forcing lists on groups.io to unsubscribe members who have not taken the Oath pledge for their e-mail provider (those now controlled by Oath). If you have been asked to take the Oath Pledge and declined, you may find yourself denied access to lists on YG and have your e-mail address marked as spam by Oath forcing groups.io to terminate your subscription. This last week several instances of the latter, unsubscription from lists on groups.io by Oath for users of AOL.com e-mail. Previously it had been Yahoo.mail

And hopefully for those who are trying to access lists on YahooGroups they may realize that the Oath Pledge is why their access has been denied.

ken clark

www.shastasprings.com

On 2018-06-22 12:35, Randy Largent wrote:

Hello.
Is this message just to keep us updated with the vagaries of Yahoo Groups and/or will this affect the IO Groups you have created?

Thanks

Randy largent

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 11:19 AM, SP4149 <ken@...> wrote:

Quietly over a year ago YahooGroups required list owners to have Yahoo mail accounts, or else, no access.

Oath Recently went further in regard to the Oath "Pledge of Obedience"

YahooGroup list owners were sent notice of the "Oath Pledge of Obedience" to their Yahoo.mail accounts. Many, not like me never read messages in their Yahoo.mail accounts. May 18, 2018

And many never saw the threat at the end of the message. (see below)

Please note that although our services will continue to be available under the existing terms for now, you will eventually need to agree to the new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy in order to continue to use our services.

If you ignored the "Oath Pledge", don't expect support from Oath to access your list on YG.

----- Forwarded Message -----

From: Yahoo <Yahoo@... m>

To: "sp4149@..." <sp4149@...>

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018, 11:45:15 AM PDT

Subject: Reminder: Important update to our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy

Dear Member,
(sp4149@...)

In June 2017, Yahoo and AOL joined forces to create Oath, a media and technology company with a dynamic house of global brands, and a part of Verizon. It's an exciting venture that we believe will bring a host of new innovations and digital experiences for our users. With Verizon, Oath can provide you with better experiences and services.

As part of this collaboration, we're asking all users of Oath owned sites and services to agree to the new unified Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, which will help us continue to deliver and build on great digital experiences for you.

Please take some time to review and agree to the new unified Terms of Service and Privacy Policy by clicking on the button below. If you have already agreed, no additional action is needed.

Review and agree now

To help you understand some of the key updates, we've provided a summary below as well as a description of what tools are available to you to manage your data and experience within Oath's house of brands. Please note that this summary is not exhaustive and we encourage you to review the updated versions of our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. Those terms and not this summary will govern your relationship with Oath. To learn more about our approach to privacy, click here.

Terms of Service Updates Summary

We've added a mutual arbitration clause. Hopefully, disputes will never be an issue, but in the case of one, this allows a third-party arbitrator to help us resolve them. We've also added a class action waiver. These provisions are an important part of our relationship with you, so please read them carefully.

We've specified the legal entity that provides each service to you. For some services, this may be a different entity than the entity that previously provided the service. We've also reserved the right to transfer the providing entity for each service in the future.

General provisions that apply to billing, auto-renewal, and refunds have been added. Unless the additional terms for a service override the Terms of Service, these provisions apply to your use of our paid services.

Applicability of Terms. If you are using our services on behalf of another account owner (e.g., as an administrator, consultant or analyst) or on behalf of a company, business or other entity, the Terms of Service apply to your activities and are binding on the account owner or entity.

Indemnity for Non-Personal Use. If you are using our Services on behalf of a company, business or other entity, or if you are using our Services for commercial purposes, we've added an indemnity provision, which requires you and the entity to protect us against certain legal actions.

We've updated our choice of law and forum provisions. New York law now governs and New York, New York is the designated forum.

Privacy Policy Updates Summary

We've made it more readable! We took care to make it easier for you to understand our services and our privacy practices.

We've updated how we collect and use data. We've updated some of the ways we collect and analyze user data in order to deliver services, content, and relevant advertising to you and protect against abuse. This includes:

Analyzing content and information (including emails, instant messages, posts, photos, attachments, and other communications) when you use our services. This allows us to deliver, personalize and develop relevant features, content, advertising and services

Linking your activity on third-party sites and apps with information we have about you

Providing anonymized and aggregated reports to other parties regarding user trends

We've joined Verizon. By joining Verizon, Oath and its affiliates may share the information we receive among Verizon. Learn more about Verizon's privacy practices.

New information regarding personalization. We've included new information explaining how we combine data among our services and across your devices and Oath accounts. This allows us to provide more personalized content and services.

We've updated user choices. We've provided additional information about your choices when using our services, and given you control in our Privacy Controlssection.

What You Need to Do

We have designed these changes to help improve your experience with Oath and its brands. To review and agree to the new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, please click the button below. These changes go into effect as soon as you consent.

Review and agree now

Please note that although our services will continue to be available under the existing terms for now, you will eventually need to agree to the new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy in order to continue to use our services. If you have any questions or need additional help, please refer to this link.

Thank you for your continued loyalty and support.

Sincerely,
Oath

ken clark

www.shastasprings.com

On 2018-06-22 07:18, Walter Bayer II wrote:

Hi Don,

Looks like you are not the only owner that cannot access the group he owns. See

https://forums.yahoo.net/t5/Gr oups/bd-p/Groups

Regards,
Walter

-

--
ken clark

mechanical solutions to mechanical problems

electrical solutions to electrical problems

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:
You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#18526) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [ken@...]

_._,_._,_

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26956	From: SP4149	Date: 6/22/2018
Subject: Re: [RepowerAndRegear] the problems in Yahoo Groups (YG)

Randy,

Both. Oath published a business plan as a mobile media company, so desktop software support like e-mail and lists at YahooGroups are not in that target group. Technical support access from Verizon ended last month and so far Oath has not stepped up. Of a greater concern is that they have been forcing lists on groups.io to unsubscribe members who have not taken the Oath pledge for their e-mail provider (those now controlled by Oath). If you have been asked to take the Oath Pledge and declined, you may find yourself denied access to lists on YG and have your e-mail address marked as spam by Oath forcing groups.io to terminate your subscription. This last week several instances of the latter, unsubscription from lists on groups.io by Oath for users of AOL.com e-mail. Previously it had been Yahoo.mail

And hopefully for those who are trying to access lists on YahooGroups they may realize that the Oath Pledge is why their access has been denied.

ken clark

www.shastasprings.com

On 2018-06-22 12:35, Randy Largent wrote:

Hello.
Is this message just to keep us updated with the vagaries of Yahoo Groups and/or will this affect the IO Groups you have created?

Thanks

Randy largent

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 11:19 AM, SP4149 <ken@...> wrote:

Quietly over a year ago YahooGroups required list owners to have Yahoo mail accounts, or else, no access.

Oath Recently went further in regard to the Oath "Pledge of Obedience"

YahooGroup list owners were sent notice of the "Oath Pledge of Obedience" to their Yahoo.mail accounts. Many, not like me never read messages in their Yahoo.mail accounts. May 18, 2018

And many never saw the threat at the end of the message. (see below)

Please note that although our services will continue to be available under the existing terms for now, you will eventually need to agree to the new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy in order to continue to use our services.

If you ignored the "Oath Pledge", don't expect support from Oath to access your list on YG.

----- Forwarded Message -----

From: Yahoo <Yahoo@.... com>

To: "sp4149@..." <sp4149@...>

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018, 11:45:15 AM PDT

Subject: Reminder: Important update to our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy

Dear Member,
(sp4149@...)

In June 2017, Yahoo and AOL joined forces to create Oath, a media and technology company with a dynamic house of global brands, and a part of Verizon. It's an exciting venture that we believe will bring a host of new innovations and digital experiences for our users. With Verizon, Oath can provide you with better experiences and services.

As part of this collaboration, we're asking all users of Oath owned sites and services to agree to the new unified Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, which will help us continue to deliver and build on great digital experiences for you.

Please take some time to review and agree to the new unified Terms of Service and Privacy Policy by clicking on the button below. If you have already agreed, no additional action is needed.

Review and agree now

To help you understand some of the key updates, we've provided a summary below as well as a description of what tools are available to you to manage your data and experience within Oath's house of brands. Please note that this summary is not exhaustive and we encourage you to review the updated versions of our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. Those terms and not this summary will govern your relationship with Oath. To learn more about our approach to privacy, click here.

Terms of Service Updates Summary

We've added a mutual arbitration clause. Hopefully, disputes will never be an issue, but in the case of one, this allows a third-party arbitrator to help us resolve them. We've also added a class action waiver. These provisions are an important part of our relationship with you, so please read them carefully.

We've specified the legal entity that provides each service to you. For some services, this may be a different entity than the entity that previously provided the service. We've also reserved the right to transfer the providing entity for each service in the future.

General provisions that apply to billing, auto-renewal, and refunds have been added. Unless the additional terms for a service override the Terms of Service, these provisions apply to your use of our paid services.

Applicability of Terms. If you are using our services on behalf of another account owner (e.g., as an administrator, consultant or analyst) or on behalf of a company, business or other entity, the Terms of Service apply to your activities and are binding on the account owner or entity.

Indemnity for Non-Personal Use. If you are using our Services on behalf of a company, business or other entity, or if you are using our Services for commercial purposes, we've added an indemnity provision, which requires you and the entity to protect us against certain legal actions.

We've updated our choice of law and forum provisions. New York law now governs and New York, New York is the designated forum.

Privacy Policy Updates Summary

We've made it more readable! We took care to make it easier for you to understand our services and our privacy practices.

We've updated how we collect and use data. We've updated some of the ways we collect and analyze user data in order to deliver services, content, and relevant advertising to you and protect against abuse. This includes:

Analyzing content and information (including emails, instant messages, posts, photos, attachments, and other communications) when you use our services. This allows us to deliver, personalize and develop relevant features, content, advertising and services

Linking your activity on third-party sites and apps with information we have about you

Providing anonymized and aggregated reports to other parties regarding user trends

We've joined Verizon. By joining Verizon, Oath and its affiliates may share the information we receive among Verizon. Learn more about Verizon's privacy practices.

New information regarding personalization. We've included new information explaining how we combine data among our services and across your devices and Oath accounts. This allows us to provide more personalized content and services.

We've updated user choices. We've provided additional information about your choices when using our services, and given you control in our Privacy Controlssection.

What You Need to Do

We have designed these changes to help improve your experience with Oath and its brands. To review and agree to the new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, please click the button below. These changes go into effect as soon as you consent.

Review and agree now

Please note that although our services will continue to be available under the existing terms for now, you will eventually need to agree to the new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy in order to continue to use our services. If you have any questions or need additional help, please refer to this link.

Thank you for your continued loyalty and support.

Sincerely,
Oath

ken clark

www.shastasprings.com

On 2018-06-22 07:18, Walter Bayer II wrote:

Hi Don,

Looks like you are not the only owner that cannot access the group he owns. See

https://forums.yahoo.net/t5/Gr oups/bd-p/Groups

Regards,
Walter

-

--
ken clark

mechanical solutions to mechanical problems

electrical solutions to electrical problems

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:
You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#18524) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic

Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [ken@...]

_._,_._,_

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26957	From: eraitch	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26958	From: trainliker	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it.

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name. And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26959	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Attachments :

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

If you still want to be in the group, you could have clicked in the email that said it was set up and further down in the email there was a spot to click here. It works real good if you are in groups already moved to groups.io. If not, I expect it will guide you through a process and then you would be part of the new group.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 4:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it.

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name. And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26960	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Chuck,

This subject line is a new one on me. I've read here that this group was going to be changed from Yahoo to "io," but so far I haven't seen anything more on it, nor have I received any io email. I figured it was still in the works, needing completion of the transfer. One of the HO Swap & Sell Yahoo groups I was on transferred to "io" and it was absolutely painless and seamless, with the group being moved to "io' and the complete membership automatically being moved with it automatically without anyone having to so a thing. When I read about this transfer recently, I had just assumed that the transfer of this group would be just the same, in that we would expect to find ourselves on ""io" without having to do anything further but sit back and have it happen as being transferred. Do I need to do something be remain with this group? If so, what's needed and how is it accomplished? I have to wonder, even though I realize Don played no part in it, why it just wasn't transferred like so many other Yahoo groups are doing -- to make it easier for the members. I appreciate that it was done but I'm not understanding why a regular transfer wasn't done -- or, can that only be done by a group owner?

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 4:54 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it.

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name. And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26961	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Attachments :

Hi Ray and any others who have not joined VintageHO@... For what ever the reason, Don was locked out of this group and could not do the transfer. So, others at Don’s request have set us up on groups.io.

However, you do have to join. No transfer was possible. If you are in another group on groups.io, then click here VintageHO@... It should ask you to join somewhere on the page. If you are not in any group on groups.io, you will need to create an account there. And then join.

Yes, it was easy as a member of a group that could be transferred to just sit back and it happened. I too am a member of a few this has happened with. But that was not the case for our Vintage HO group. So please take the steps to get back with the group.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 5:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it.

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name. And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26962	From: trainliker	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join

Attachments :

E932F45E916C48A183B90E38ED60F574.png

First, this is message 26947 at the Yahoo groups location when the move was officially announced. It has a link you can click on that takes you straight to the group location at groups.io.

*************************************

Or you can do it step by step through the front door of groups.io:

Go to groups.io at https://groups.io/ and “Log In” in if you aren’t already. If you don’t have an account there yet, then choose “Sign Up” and do that.

Actually, whether or not you do any of that, you can still search for a group with the “Find or Create a Group” choice at the top bar of the groups.io home page.

Click on it and it will take you to a page with a search box. Type vintagho into the box and a new page with the group name will come up. Click on the group name.

Buttons on the bottom of the next page show “Join This Group” or “Log In If You Are Already A Member”. You can then join the group.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 2:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it.

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name. And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26963	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join [1 Attachm

Attachments :

Thanks Chuck,

Take care,

Chuck Higdon

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 5:47 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

First, this is message 26947 at the Yahoo groups location when the move was officially announced. It has a link you can click on that takes you straight to the group location at groups.io.

*************************************

Or you can do it step by step through the front door of groups.io:

Go to groups.io at https://groups.io/ and “Log In” in if you aren’t already. If you don’t have an account there yet, then choose “Sign Up” and do that..

Actually, whether or not you do any of that, you can still search for a group with the “Find or Create a Group” choice at the top bar of the groups.io home page.

Click on it and it will take you to a page with a search box. Type vintagho into the box and a new page with the group name will come up. Click on the group name.

Buttons on the bottom of the next page show “Join This Group” or “Log In If You Are Already A Member”. You can then join the group.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

It was done differently.. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it.

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name. And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26964	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the help. I think I joined but I'm not very sure. I received two messages from Groups.io -- one confirming my subscription and the other Welcoming me to the group, but unless emails take unusually long going through this group, it doesn't look like I'm in,. I sent two messages to VintageHO@... (from the same address) and I haven't seen them come through yet. Thanks again.

I guess we'll see in time.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 5:43 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it.

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name.. And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26965	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Attachments :

Hi Ray, I see three messages that are from you. One here and two at io.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 6:57 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26966	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Chuck,

Okay, I'm in. Just caught those three myself, in my mail. Hope I didn't miss much in the few days io was running. Many thanks,

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 7:12 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Ray, I see three messages that are from you. One here and two at io.

Take care,

Chuck

Yes, it was easy as a member of a group that could be transferred to just sit back and it happened. I too am a member of a few this has happened with. But that was not the case for our Vintage HO group.. So please take the steps to get back with the group.

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name.... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26967	From: trainliker	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join

Attachments :

I suspect it may be because any “new” members (and I guess that means all of us at this group at groups.io) starts out automatically moderated. It may take awhile for your post to get approved. Or for the “moderation” to be removed. I think a little “mod” shows up next to the group name on your list of groups at groups.io if you are still “moderated”.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 3:57 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26968	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io - misc.

Didn't think about that. Makes perfect sense. While I'm here, I just thought I'd mention that I received some 11 issues yesterday, of The Model Craftsman -- scattered from November 1933 (Vol. 2 No. 3) through June 1938 (Vol. 7 No. 1). There's model railroading techniques in there that have been long forgotten about. President and treasurer, Charles A. Penn (of Penn Line :?). Originally, established at Chicago, IL -- later moved to Stroudsburg, PA. While it's been so long that I've heard this magazine's successor's name, I'm inclined to say this magazine might be the one that Hal Carstens bought out and changed the name to Railroad Model Craftsman. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 7:33 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name.... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26969	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name.... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26970	From: trainliker	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up andrunning.Please join

Attachments :

7CEF3E63050A458B808681739EE8FB95.png

Yes. Model Craftsman became Railroad Model Craftsman in 1949.

Story about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Model_Craftsman

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 5:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up andrunning.Please join

Didn't think about that. Makes perfect sense. While I'm here, I just thought I'd mention that I received some 11 issues yesterday, of The Model Craftsman -- scattered from November 1933 (Vol.. 2 No. 3) through June 1938 (Vol. 7 No. 1). There's model railroading techniques in there that have been long forgotten about. President and treasurer, Charles A. Penn (of Penn Line :?). Originally, established at Chicago, IL -- later moved to Stroudsburg, PA. While it's been so long that I've heard this magazine's successor's name, I'm inclined to say this magazine might be the one that Hal Carstens bought out and changed the name to Railroad Model Craftsman. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 7:33 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join

Charles E.. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name.... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26971	From: Kenneth Clark	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Ray,

As Dale posted previously, since membership profiles could not be transferred from YG, everyone has to join the list ongroups.io as a new member.

Posted by new members are moderated. Dale will have limited internet access for a few days and has asked me to be an active moderator in his absence.

After I approve a post it will then be sent to all members.

FWIW I have helped Dale in the past with his lists on groups.io and have been advising him on setting up this list and he has made me a moderator.

And I have already approved a few posts.

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 3:57 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26972	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 6/26/18, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 3:41 PM

It is vintageHO – all one
word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo It looks like the same name
at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by
basket of groups for some reason like other groups that
moved did. It currently only shows 32
members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was
done differently than other groups have done it. At groups.io, I searched for
the group, found it, clicked on its name. And the clicked
“Join” and I was added. Charles E. “Chuck”
Kinzer Sent from Mail
for Windows 10
From:
eraitch@...
[vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June
26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at
Groups.io is up and running. Please join what is the exact name of the
group now?I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo
groups searchthanks

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105 --
#yiv2658319105ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mkp #yiv2658319105hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mkp #yiv2658319105ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mkp .yiv2658319105ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mkp .yiv2658319105ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mkp .yiv2658319105ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2658319105ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2658319105ygrp-lc #yiv2658319105hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2658319105ygrp-lc .yiv2658319105ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105activity span
.yiv2658319105underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2658319105 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2658319105 dd.yiv2658319105last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2658319105 dd.yiv2658319105last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2658319105 dd.yiv2658319105last p
span.yiv2658319105yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv2658319105 div.yiv2658319105attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2658319105 div.yiv2658319105attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv2658319105 div.yiv2658319105file-title a, #yiv2658319105
div.yiv2658319105file-title a:active, #yiv2658319105
div.yiv2658319105file-title a:hover, #yiv2658319105
div.yiv2658319105file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2658319105 div.yiv2658319105photo-title a,
#yiv2658319105 div.yiv2658319105photo-title a:active,
#yiv2658319105 div.yiv2658319105photo-title a:hover,
#yiv2658319105 div.yiv2658319105photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2658319105 div#yiv2658319105ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv2658319105ygrp-msg p a span.yiv2658319105yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv2658319105 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv2658319105 .yiv2658319105replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv2658319105 input, #yiv2658319105 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv2658319105
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-mlmsg #yiv2658319105logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-msg
p#yiv2658319105attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-reco
#yiv2658319105reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-sponsor #yiv2658319105ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-sponsor #yiv2658319105ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-sponsor #yiv2658319105ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv2658319105 #yiv2658319105ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv2658319105

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26973	From: Kenneth Clark	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

The NEW LIST is at groups.io

as YahooGroups under Oath ownership has become largely dysfunctional.

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: eraitch@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 12:22 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26974	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/26/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Ray,

Your message came through but on the old Yahoo groups.

In fact all of today’s messages have been from Yahoo groups.

In order to have messages come from group.io they must be sent to vintageHO@...

Just clicking reply without checking where the message being replied to came from may not do the job.

If the message came from groups.io your reply will go to vintageHO@...

But if the message came from vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, it will not show up on groups.io

To check this, enter vintageHO@... in your search bar and click it. That will get you into the groups home page in groups.io. Then, on the menu on the left side of your screen, click messages to see what messages have been sent there.

Also so someone said that Don Dellman was locked out of groups.io. Don was not locked out of groups.io nor, as I understand it, was he locked out of Yahoo groups.

But Don WAS locked out as owner/moderator on vintageHO@yahoogroups.com As such, he could facilitate moving membership or photos/files from Yahoo. This is not because groips.io requires the owner to move the files but because Yahoo requires it.

Without an owner it cannot be done. And with Don having had his privileges as owner blocked by Yahoo, he could not do it, nor could he appoint a new or additional owner. It’s a Yahoo/Oath catch 22.

Now I sent this message to both groups. Let’s see if I t shows up on both groups. It really should.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 6:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Ray, I see three messages that are from you. One here and two at io.

Take care,

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26975	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/27/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up andrunning.Please join [1 Attachme

Okay, I thought this was the magazine that became Railroad Model Craftsman but I wasn't certain. I heard or read of this perhaps 30 or 40 years ago (or more) and couldn't recollect the details. Could have even read it it RMC, as per your link on this. My listing of magazines, which I used to take to the swap & sell shows to prevent my duplicating them, show April, September and November 1939 under Railroad Model Craftsman but these three early magazines are most probably The Model Craftsman. My RMC mags, which I know for sure as being that title, don't start until 1949 coinciding with what you've stated. I don't recall seeing any post-War TMC magazines unless I just missed them (or they weren't published after the War). I would have to dig the three pre-War magazines out of storage (in the attic) to verify the title but more than likely they'\d have to be TMC. Paid $10 for the 10 issues of TMC which just arrived, with an extra issue thrown in free; shipping being $3.17. Not too bad -- I believe I was the only bidder. Thanks for the info and the link.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 9:00 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up andrunning.Please join [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

Yes. Model Craftsman became Railroad Model Craftsman in 1949.

Story about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Model_Craftsman

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Didn't think about that. Makes perfect sense.. While I'm here, I just thought I'd mention that I received some 11 issues yesterday, of The Model Craftsman -- scattered from November 1933 (Vol.. 2 No. 3) through June 1938 (Vol. 7 No. 1). There's model railroading techniques in there that have been long forgotten about. President and treasurer, Charles A. Penn (of Penn Line :?). Originally, established at Chicago, IL -- later moved to Stroudsburg, PA. While it's been so long that I've heard this magazine's successor's name, I'm inclined to say this magazine might be the one that Hal Carstens bought out and changed the name to Railroad Model Craftsman. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups..com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 7:33 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running.Please join

Charles E.. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name.... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26976	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 6/27/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Kenneth,

Sounds good. I now recall this narration as messages a short while ago, but it didn't stick with me as I didn't think it would have much to do with my membership. I have to guess this is why my latest posts were slightly delayed. Good 'Nuff - you need to do your job. I know what moderatintg entails as I'm still one on several unrelated groups. Not much traffic because most has gone to Facebook and other social media. Hope to see this thrive as an io group. No reason that I can see, why it shouldn't.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Clark kenrclark@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 10:30 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Ray,

As Dale posted previously, since membership profiles could not be transferred from YG, everyone has to join the list ongroups.io as a new member.

Posted by new members are moderated. Dale will have limited internet access for a few days and has asked me to be an active moderator in his absence.

After I approve a post it will then be sent to all members.

FWIW I have helped Dale in the past with his lists on groups.io and have been advising him on setting up this list and he has made me a moderator..

And I have already approved a few posts.

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

Take care,

Chuck

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26977	From: anypaddler	Date: 6/27/2018
Subject: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Chuck Higdon wrote:

< It was done differently. There was no transfer.

----------------------

This makes it a pain in the patootie. I still get messages from other groups that transferred, but if I want to stay with this group I have to sign into groups.io by establishing a new account with a new password. Why wasn't this group transferred?

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26978	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/27/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Attachments :

Ralph,

If you are with other groups that did transfer, then you have a sign-on and password established with groups.io. So just go to one of them, go to the bottom of the message you got from a group on groups.io, click on “Your subscription. Then on the new screen that will appear, click on the find or create a group. Then find vintageHO. It should be that easy.

Take care,

Chuck Higdon

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 10:35 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Chuck Higdon wrote:

< It was done differently. There was no transfer.

----------------------

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26979	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/27/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Ralph,

You do not have to a new io account and password.

Just go to vintageHO@... and click on “join group.” Then, when asked, supply your email used in your other io groups.

That should do it but if your password is requested, give them your current io password.

On groups.io only one email and password is required for all your groups.

If a regular transfer could have been done, all this would have been automatic. But is wasn’t so you have to go through the extra, what?, three steps to join.

I do mean to sound like a know-it-all-ahole here (albeit my proctologist confirms I’m perfect) but it’s not that big a deal.

So far as being a pain in certain parts of the anatomy, just think if there was no way to save vintageHO. Now that’s a pain.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:35 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Chuck Higdon wrote:

< It was done differently. There was no transfer.

----------------------

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26980	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 6/27/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

THANKS FOR ALL THE EFFORT, JOHN, DON, DALE, KEN AND ALL THE REST OF YOU... YOU ARE A GREAT GROUP OF PEOPLE. IT IS SO VERY GOOD TO HAVE CONTACT AND EXCHANGE WITH ALL OF YOU IN THE VINTAGE HO GROUP... YOU MAY NOT HEAR MUCH FROM ME BUT I POST WHEN I HAVE A QUESTION OR WHEN I AM ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE TO A NEED... FORGIVE THE LARGE, BOLD CAPS... JUST HAD EYE SURGERY AND RECOVERY TAKES A LOT LONGER THAN WE EXPECT SOMETIMES. I HAVE BEEN IN TRAINS ALL MY LIFE, HO SINCE 1958. I WAS A RESTORER, CUSTOM BUILDER, CUSTOM PAINTER AND REPAIR MAN FOR ALL SCALES AND GAUGES FOR A VERY LONG TIME... BORN LOVING TRAINS AND IT JUST GREW FROM THERE!!!

HAPPY RAILROADING...

DON STATON IN VIRGINIA

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 6/27/2018 10:11 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Ralph,

You do not have to a new io account and password.

Just go to vintageHO@... and click on “join group.” Then, when asked, supply your email used in your other io groups.

That should do it but if your password is requested, give them your current io password.

On groups.io only one email and password is required for all your groups.

If a regular transfer could have been done, all this would have been automatic. But is wasn’t so you have to go through the extra, what?, three steps to join.

I do mean to sound like a know-it-all-ahole here (albeit my proctologist confirms I’m perfect) but it’s not that big a deal.

So far as being a pain in certain parts of the anatomy, just think if there was no way to save vintageHO. Now that’s a pain.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:35 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Chuck Higdon wrote:

< It was done differently. There was no transfer.

----------------------

This makes it a pain in the patootie. I still get messages from other groups that transferred, but if I want to stay with this group I have to sign into groups.io by establishing a new account with a new password. Why wasn't this group transferred?

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26981	From: D.F. Smith	Date: 6/27/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Ray, Don't worry about the delay. All groups on groups.io require approval by the owner or moderator of the first post. On Yahoo, thre was an option simply allowing approval of the membership. I have been going through the new members and either approving them when they post or simply eliminating the first post moderation requirement if I get in fast enough. I probably missed yours because I am traveling right now. I am in a hotel room writing this right now. Once everyone is on board and in unmoderated status, things should go faster. Ken is also doing approvals while I am gone, but even so, there can be delays.

Dale

On 6/26/2018 3:57 PM, Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the help. I think I joined but I'm not very sure. I received two messages from Groups.io -- one confirming my subscription and the other Welcoming me to the group, but unless emails take unusually long going through this group, it doesn't look like I'm in,. I sent two messages to VintageHO@... (from the same address) and I haven't seen them come through yet. Thanks again.

I guess we'll see in time.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 5:43 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Ray and any others who have not joined VintageHO@... For what ever the reason, Don was locked out of this group and could not do the transfer. So, others at Don’s request have set us up on groups.io.

However, you do have to join. No transfer was possible. If you are in another group on groups.io, then click here VintageHO@... It should ask you to join somewhere on the page. If you are not in any group on groups.io, you will need to create an account there. And then join.

Yes, it was easy as a member of a group that could be transferred to just sit back and it happened. I too am a member of a few this has happened with. But that was not the case for our Vintage HO group. So please take the steps to get back with the group.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 5:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Chuck,

This subject line is a new one on me. I've read here that this group was going to be changed from Yahoo to "io," but so far I haven't seen anything more on it, nor have I received any io email. I figured it was still in the works, needing completion of the transfer. One of the HO Swap & Sell Yahoo groups I was on transferred to "io" and it was absolutely painless and seamless, with the group being moved to "io' and the complete membership automatically being moved with it automatically without anyone having to so a thing. When I read about this transfer recently, I had just assumed that the transfer of this group would be just the same, in that we would expect to find ourselves on ""io" without having to do anything further but sit back and have it happen as being transferred. Do I need to do something be remain with this group? If so, what's needed and how is it accomplished? I have to wonder, even though I realize Don played no part in it, why it just wasn't transferred like so many other Yahoo groups are doing -- to make it easier for the members. I appreciate that it was done but I'm not understanding why a regular transfer wasn't done -- or, can that only be done by a group owner?

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 4:54 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

If you still want to be in the group, you could have clicked in the email that said it was set up and further down in the email there was a spot to click here. It works real good if you are in groups already moved to groups.io. If not, I expect it will guide you through a process and then you would be part of the new group.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 4:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it.

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name.. And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26982	From: D.F. Smith	Date: 6/27/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

You can still read them on the groups.io website.

On 6/26/2018 4:28 PM, Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Chuck,

Okay, I'm in. Just caught those three myself, in my mail. Hope I didn't miss much in the few days io was running. Many thanks,

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 7:12 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Ray, I see three messages that are from you. One here and two at io.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 6:57 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the help. I think I joined but I'm not very sure. I received two messages from Groups.io -- one confirming my subscription and the other Welcoming me to the group, but unless emails take unusually long going through this group, it doesn't look like I'm in,. I sent two messages to VintageHO@... (from the same address) and I haven't seen them come through yet. Thanks again.

I guess we'll see in time.

Ray W.

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 5:43 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Ray and any others who have not joined VintageHO@... For what ever the reason, Don was locked out of this group and could not do the transfer. So, others at Don’s request have set us up on groups..io.

However, you do have to join. No transfer was possible. If you are in another group on groups.io, then click here VintageHO@... It should ask you to join somewhere on the page. If you are not in any group on groups.io, you will need to create an account there. And then join.

Yes, it was easy as a member of a group that could be transferred to just sit back and it happened. I too am a member of a few this has happened with. But that was not the case for our Vintage HO group.. So please take the steps to get back with the group.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 5:29 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Hi Chuck,

This subject line is a new one on me. I've read here that this group was going to be changed from Yahoo to "io," but so far I haven't seen anything more on it, nor have I received any io email. I figured it was still in the works, needing completion of the transfer. One of the HO Swap & Sell Yahoo groups I was on transferred to "io" and it was absolutely painless and seamless, with the group being moved to "io' and the complete membership automatically being moved with it automatically without anyone having to so a thing. When I read about this transfer recently, I had just assumed that the transfer of this group would be just the same, in that we would expect to find ourselves on ""io" without having to do anything further but sit back and have it happen as being transferred. Do I need to do something be remain with this group? If so, what's needed and how is it accomplished? I have to wonder, even though I realize Don played no part in it, why it just wasn't transferred like so many other Yahoo groups are doing -- to make it easier for the members. I appreciate that it was done but I'm not understanding why a regular transfer wasn't done -- or, can that only be done by a group owner?

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2018 4:54 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

It was done differently. There was no transfer. It was set up by someone other than Don at his request.

If you still want to be in the group, you could have clicked in the email that said it was set up and further down in the email there was a spot to click here. It works real good if you are in groups already moved to groups.io. If not, I expect it will guide you through a process and then you would be part of the new group.

You should do this soon.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 4:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

It is vintageHO – all one word with no spaces just as it is at Yahoo

It looks like the same name at Groups.io but it didn’t automatically show up in by basket of groups for some reason like other groups that moved did.

It currently only shows 32 members. So perhaps the transfer isn’t finished, or was done differently than other groups have done it..

At groups.io, I searched for the group, found it, clicked on its name.... And the clicked “Join” and I was added.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: eraitch@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

what is the exact name of the group now?

I can not find Vintage HO under the Yahoo groups search

thanks

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26983	From: D.F. Smith	Date: 6/27/2018
Subject: What the future holds for Vintage HO

I thought I should let you know what is going on behind the scenes with
the group.

I had been concerned for some time about the non-functionality of
various features of this and other Yahoo groups. I belong to several
groups and am the co-owner of Gilberthotrains and moderate a Gilbert
history site also. Very few of these groups contain the wealth of
information and history that is contained in the 26000 posts since Don
founded the group back in the early 2000's Just think about all the
knowledge we have gained from Jim Heckard and others who still
contribute. By the way, Don is still an owner. He now has a little help
with the day to day work on the group. The other owners are Walter
Bayer, with whom I shared my concerns, and Ken Clark, who guided me
through the transfer process for gilberthotrains.

My first step was to purchase software called PG Offline, which allowed
me to save all the messages as well as photos, files, and attachments.
Unless I can figure a better way to do it, I plan to upload all the
photos from the Yahoo group to the groups.io group along with the files
and attachments. I have all the messages and am going to try to get
them into a format that can be uploaded to groups.io. If that fails, I
will post them by the years in searchable files on an internet site.
No email addresses will be exposed because as a non moderator, my
credentials did not allow the inclusion of the email addresses. If
they had, I could have created a list of all the old list members and
you wouldn't have had to re-register, but unfortunately that couldn't be
done.

It would be best if no one posts substantive posts, that is those that
relate to vintage HO, on the old yahoo group. It would simplify the
task of getting the messages on the new site without confusion. They
won't be lost though because I can update the files I downloaded any time.

I urge you all to sign up for the new list on groups.io, which is a very
stable site with good support. Mark Fletcher, the head of the company,
handles support and I have been in contact with him and I am sure he
will help us when I get the database in a form he can work with.

I will get working on this when I return in a little over a week, but it
will take some time, as we have 260 photo albums. I am also exploring
the possibilities of adding stragglers by adding them directly, but your
effort to sign yourself up can make that task a lot easier and the
sooner you sign up, the sooner you get to see the continuing messages of
the group.

Dale Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26984	From: Kenneth Clark	Date: 6/28/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

No you don't, just go to the groups.io website, search for the VintageHO list and join.

You will then have the same account and password as your other lists on groups.io

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2018 7:35 am
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Chuck Higdon wrote:

< It was done differently. There was no transfer.

----------------------

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26985	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 6/29/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

I can't find it! Do you have a link?

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Kenneth Clark kenrclark@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 11:36 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

No you don't, just go to the groups.io website, search for the VintageHO list and join.

You will then have the same account and password as your other lists on groups.io

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2018 7:35 am
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Chuck Higdon wrote:

< It was done differently. There was no transfer.

----------------------

This makes it a pain in the patootie. I still get messages from other groups that transferred, but if I want to stay with this group I have to sign into groups.io by establishing a new account with a new password. Why wasn't this group transferred?

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26986	From: trainliker	Date: 6/29/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Pleasejoin

Attachments :

44ED464F1DF24CFF96C2630EA646912F.png

This will take you to the home page of the VintageHO group at groups.io:

https://groups.io/g/VintageHO

You should see a little “Join” button at the bottom left. If you are already with groups.io, such as on other groups there, that’s it.

If you are not registered with groups.io (a one time thing no matter how many groups you will be on) here is a link to go directly to a page where you can register.

https://groups.io/login

At the very bottom of the page where it says, “Don't have a Groups.io account? Registration is free and easy.” You click on “register”

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 9:17 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Pleasejoin

I can't find it! Do you have a link?

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth Clark kenrclark@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

No you don't, just go to the groups.io website, search for the VintageHO list and join.
You will then have the same account and password as your other lists on groups.io
When you think outside the box,
You are out of the loop.
Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454
Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2018 7:35 am
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Chuck Higdon wrote:
< It was done differently. There was no transfer.
----------------------
This makes it a pain in the patootie. I still get messages from other groups that transferred, but if I want to stay with this group I have to sign into groups.io by establishing a new account with a new password. Why wasn't this group transferred?

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26987	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 6/29/2018
Subject: Re: Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Go to the url "groups.io"

In the Search box, search for vintage HO.

Regards,
Walter

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I can't find it! Do you have a link?

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

----- Original Message -----

From: Kenneth Clark kenrclark@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 11:36 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

No you don't, just go to the groups.io website, search for the VintageHO list and join.

You will then have the same account and password as your other lists on groups.io

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 27, 2018 7:35 am
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO at Groups.io is up and running. Please join

Chuck Higdon wrote:

< It was done differently. There was no transfer.

----------------------

This makes it a pain in the patootie. I still get messages from other groups that transferred, but if I want to stay with this group I have to sign into groups.io by establishing a new account with a new password. Why wasn't this group transferred?

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26988	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/29/2018
Subject: Re: Moving Photos - Fixed

Take the oath pledge is such a big deal, apparently. Every one of us who is online has their personal information spread all over the web, thanks to Google and others.

For most, their important things, such as bank or credit card access is not, or if it is, due to all the “breaches” from organizations we join who are too greedy to pay for proper security protection, it isn’t that easily available to just everyone. You do have to be a well-informed hacker with a bent towards stealing form the poor to give to the rich to use that data.

Anyway, taking the Oath “oath”, while a real PIA idealistically, really just is not that big a deal in today’s world.

Yeah, I didn’t like it either but I did it and have full function (such as it is now) in Yahoo groups.

BTW, I think it was maybe Wednesday when I was having some problem in Yahoo groups, I noticed a message stating that they were up-grading Yahoo groups, whatever that meant.

John Hagen

From: VintageHO@... [mailto:VintageHO@...] On Behalf Of SP4149
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 2:34 PM
To: VintageHO@...
Subject: Re: [VintageHO] Moving Photos - Fixed

Frank,

I am in touch with a lady who had lost admin for her YG lists and was asking for help on the GroupManagersForum.

Right now it looks like it may be an Oath pledge issue in her case. In my case the fix was to take the Oath Pledge before it was too late.

I would recommend that any YG list owner take the Oath Pledge before they permanently lose their admin rights. As Dale has found out,

retaining Admin rights for a list on YG has become a major hurdle.

Once lost it may not be recoverable.

ken clark

www.shastasprings.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26989	From: dale2680	Date: 7/15/2018
Subject: Subscribe to VintageHO at groups.io

Message to all those who haven't joined the group at Groups.io

There are a lot of you who haven't signed up with the new version of this group on groups.io. You may have belonged to groups that were transferred over to groups.io and you could just sit back and let the messages from the new group roll in. That won't happen here because the group was not functioning properly on Yahoo and the Owner, Don Dellmann couldn't initiate a transfer. Don is now over on the new group as owner with 3 new Owner/Moderators to keep things running smoothly.

We do need you to go to the following link, https://groups.io/g/VintageHO and click on the link at the upper right that says "Sign Up." Then go to "Find or Create a Group" and put in "VintageHO." and subscribe. You will then start getting messages from the new group in whatever way you select.

This Yahoo site is not being used for messages anymore and all the photos and files from the Yahoo group have been moved to Groups.io. We are working on moving over the message archive.

Dale Smith,

One of the new Owner/Moderators of VintageHO@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26990	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 7/17/2018
Subject: Atlas Alco S-2 p/n 8070: need tips to remove shell

Have a nice undec Atlas Alco S-2 I got some 20+ years ago. Atlas No.
8070. Never used it. Runs perfectly. Has NMRA couplers. Need to
install KD's so I can give it to my 90 year old Uncle who was just given
an HO train set. No documents, so am trying to remember how to remove
shell because I suspect getting factory couplers off might require
that. (no screw underneath) I see the tab in front bottom of shell and
suspect there is one in rear. Front popped up easily. Have released
two grab irons from rear of cab but can't see where to put pressure for
getting rear off. Or....am just not using enough, "push."

Thoughts appreciated about shell removal and, perhaps, even a comment on
KD installation.

Thanks,
Dennis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26991	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 7/18/2018
Subject: Re: Atlas Alco S-2 p/n 8070: need tips to remove shell

Try Here:

https://kadee.com/conv/convpl.htm

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 2:10 PM

Subject: [vintageHO] Atlas Alco S-2 p/n 8070: need tips to remove shell

Have a nice undec Atlas Alco S-2 I got some 20+ years ago. Atlas No.
8070. Never used it. Runs perfectly. Has NMRA couplers. Need to
install KD's so I can give it to my 90 year old Uncle who was just given
an HO train set. No documents, so am trying to remember how to remove
shell because I suspect getting factory couplers off might require
that. (no screw underneath) I see the tab in front bottom of shell and
suspect there is one in rear. Front popped up easily. Have released
two grab irons from rear of cab but can't see where to put pressure for
getting rear off. Or....am just not using enough, "push."

Thoughts appreciated about shell removal and, perhaps, even a comment on
KD installation.

Thanks,
Dennis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26992	From: David J. Starr	Date: 8/2/2018
Subject: Re: Suspicious Email from Groups.io

I just got an email, claiming to be from Groups.io, saying that something was wrong with my email address. The email wants me to click on this link

https://groups.io/unbounce?email=dstarrboston@...&cookie=7416306305236000575

David J

Is this legit? or is it a phish? Anyone have any ideas? I gotta wonder about my email going bad on group.io but they can still send me this email. On the other hand, I notice that I haven't been getting any group.io email traffic for the last couple of weeks.

David J. Starr

On 6/13/2018 11:51 AM, Kenneth Clark kenrclark@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Dale,
Sure.

While groups.io limits size by pixel count, it doesn't change image type (e.g. bmp), which also makes a big impact on storage size.

Also the groups.io resizing does not change the image ratio so it appears pretty seamless and it is done very quickly.

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 13, 2018 8:39 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

By and large the photos on Vintage HO were reasonable size. Most were 800x600.   I ran them through a batch resizing app on Irfanview and that is where I got them down to 500 gb for the attachments. I set maximum width at 1024, then ran them again with maximum height set to that same dimension. Maybe the groups.io puts in a bit of compression also. With Don's approval, will you work with me to get this group transferred?

The download program saves the photos in directories by album and the attachments in one folder. I am not sure how the messages are stored or where yet.

Dale

On 6/12/2018 10:07 PM, Kenneth Clark kenrclark@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I just transferred a YG list with 3.3GB of images. I set maximum image size for the new list for photos and files at 1024 x 1024 pixels.

After transfer total image storage was less than 700MB

When you think outside the box,

You are out of the loop.

Kenneth R. Clark
P.O. Box 212454

Chula Vista, CA 91921

-----Original Message-----
From: trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups..com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 12, 2018 9:54 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Moving the Group [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from trainliker included below]

I’m not positive, but I think groups.io has the means to perhaps automatically limit the resolution of photos to something less than the ludicrous resolution that many post. Maybe there is a way to do it en masse. And maybe a way to effect that as photos come in.

But I may be wrong about that. On another group in groups.io, it has been asked that people post only reasonable resolution photos. I did a quick look and noticed photos posted at excessively large 1 to 3 meg that only needed to be maybe 100K to 300K. However, I looked at a lot of the “email attachment” photos and they were all modest in size. So either people are being unusually responsible, or there IS something dealing with big file size photos for at least photos as email attachments.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Moving the Group

Don, Walter, and Chuck and all members,

I have talked previously with Walter Bayer and Ken Clark, who helped me move the GilbertHOtrains group to groups.io and unfortunately, it probably won't go as easily as Chuck notes for this group. Unlike Don, I was not locked out of my owner functions and could undertake the proper interactions with the transfer program at groups.io. Also, gilbertHOtrains is a much smaller group with fewer photos and attachments.

I recently became aware of another way this can be done and that is with a program called PG Offline, that can download the entire contents of any Yahoo group. This afternoon, I downloaded all the messages, (26932 of them), and 1.5 gb of attachments and photos as well as 80 mb of files. So rest assured that the contents of this group is safe and preserved. I am working now on figuring out how to get this information into a groups.io group or other group that we may set up. The only problem is the size of the photos and attachments.   Free accounts at groups.io only allow 1 gb of storage and even by reducing the size of the photos in the attachments to a max width of 1024 pixels, I was only able to gain 250 mb or so. I haven't checked out Google groups yet, so that might be a possibility. As to moving the members over, the easiest way would be to send an invitation from the new group complete with links for easy sign up. It could simply be sent to the old Yahoo group.

Maybe we can pare down some of the photos, or put them elsewhere on the net. I do have space on the server that hosts gilbertho.org but I would need to figure how to host them there in an easily accessible form. They would, of course, be in their own space on the server.

I appreciate anyone's ideas and suggestions on this but I am willing to do what it takes to get us on a stable platform, with Don's approval, of course.

Dale Smith

On 6/12/2018 7:14 PM, trainliker ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

If the group is moved to groups.io (and I hope it is) you don’t have to hope members see it move. It is extremely seamless. Your info goes to the new group and it is business as usual for you. The only difference you see is that you then get emails from vintageHO@... instead of vintageHO@yahoogroups.com. You don’t have to do anything. All the message and photo and file archives also automatically move to the new group servicer. Other groups I am on have moved quite painlessly to groups.io from this Yahoo mess.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model

I still cannot access the group page, Yahoo has really f*cked me up. i would have to say you guys start a group there, advertisem it on the yeahoo group, and hope the members see it to move. Anyone shoulld be able to download the files from the yahoo page and reload them on the new page. I can't.

i Did get some footage of the berkshire running, my camera is dying so they;re more short clips, but at least you can see she runs. Let me know if these come through Okay.

Arraching the files didn.t work. I'm going to send some more messages through my work program, ome at a time, hopw this woks better

Don

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/11/18, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LV #76, Brill Boxcab Model
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>, "Don Dellmann" <dondellmann@...>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2018, 1:23 PM






   Jay,
The attachments came across blank,
and the links to them in the group failed. We really need to
IMGRATE to groups.io.
Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at
1:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:






   [Attachment(s) from
Jay Wanczyk included below]


   Hello All, Attached are two photos of an early
scratchbuilt model of Lehigh Valley #76, a Brill box cab
switcher that I purchased a couple of years ago. I believe
Carstens published plans of the prototype in the late 1950s
or early 1960s, they may have been reprinted in the book,
"Loco 1, The Diesel."   The third attached photo
is of the prototype, once used at the LV's NYC
harborside terminal yards. The main body is not constructed
of brass, it appears to be possibly sheet zinc, with an
embossed rivet overlay strip of thin copper or brass. Both
trucks were powered and appear to be from a Revell EMD
switcher, having belt drive to an intermediate,
truckmounted shaft with geared wheel sets.   I am not sure
about the origin of the metal, brass? sidegrames. I need to
dig up appropriate bands to have it moving again. I believe
the model was constructed in the early 1960s, given the
choice of power components and the fact that the builder
stuck to the NMRA – type couplers. A cool model and only
sorry that the original builders name is lost. W. Jay W.













#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125 --
   #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp #yiv7991827125ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-mkp .yiv7991827125ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc #yiv7991827125hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7991827125ygrp-lc .yiv7991827125ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7991827125 #yiv7991827125activity span
...yiv7991827125underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7991827125 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7991827125 .yiv7991827125bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv79918

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26993	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 10/14/2018
Subject: Archive of MODEL CRAFTSMAN/RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN magazines.

I have an almost-complete archive of RMC and it earlier named MODEL CRAFTSMAN magazines back to its earliest days in 1933 (Vol 1). The earliest volumes through 1939 are in archive boxes. 1940-1979 are in publisher loose leaf binders (seven volumes are in high quality custom gold-leafed hard bindings). Later volumes to 1990 are in individual durable plastic shelf boxes (a few in professional archive-grade library boxes.

I have received much pleasure with these volumes over the many decades, and I can still get quite lost in perusing so many of them page by page. My particular favorite was to perceive the competopm between the MR and Model Craftsman when Frank Taylor brought out is revolutionary Milwaukee Road 4-6-4 kit (US HO’s very first locomotive kit). Taylor announced the kit -with Bill Walthers- in the MR, but…how to construct it appeared the very next month in Model Craftsman (Taylor sold the kit to Walthers -who produced it to 1939, and then subsequently be came one of MR’s strongest editors).

These are -in toto- FREE FOB Sacramento. They are shippable, but at what giant expense? I will not part them out, so please do not ask (;-). With no takers, these will go to the dumpster- a sad end.

I am yet unaware that this magazine archive has yet to be digitized, and if it has in a genuinely usable way, please let me know.

PLEASE CONTACT ME ONLY OFF-LINE!

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26994	From: rcjge	Date: 1/30/2019
Subject: Lima Caboose Railing/ladder

Hey Guys,

Does anyone have a Lima Bay window caboose end railing/ladder piece?

Thanks,

Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26995	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 3/3/2019
Subject: TEST!

Just Testing

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26996	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/3/2019
Subject: Re: TEST!

Came through at this end fine.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: Vintage HO <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2019 5:33 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] TEST!

Just Testing

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26997	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 3/3/2019
Subject: Re: TEST!

Got it. Richard Carbo

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 3, 2019, at 5:39 PM, Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Came through at this end fine.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: Vintage HO <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2019 5:33 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] TEST!

Just Testing

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26998	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/4/2019
Subject: Re: TEST!

got it

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Richard Carbo flyerguy3@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2019 11:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] TEST!

Got it. Richard Carbo

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 3, 2019, at 5:39 PM, Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Came through at this end fine.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: Vintage HO <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2019 5:33 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] TEST!

Just Testing

Group: vintageHO	Message: 26999	From: cnrmike1989	Date: 3/5/2019
Subject: Downsizine collection

Hello all, I haven't been on any Forums in a long time. It's good to see some are still here. I have to seriously downsize my train collection (retirement didn't turn out as great for that dream layout as I had thought!). I have maybe 20 Athearn (with a few Menzies, Globe, etc. in there too) metal boxcars, some assembled, some still unassembled, and maybe a couple started but never finished. I am looking to sell the lot and have no idea what is a fair price. The condition of these things range from like new kits to very crudely assembled, and everywhere in between. If I made a for sale list, could I publish it here? I'm not looking to make big bucks, just can't ring myself to throw them all out though!

They are all CANADIAN NATIONAL (I was trying to collect all the numbers, came close, but not all) except one or two, and those two have one good side and one badly rusted side.

I also have a few Varney and other brands (Athearn and MDC are all pretty much sold already). COmments? Thanx.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27000	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 3/5/2019
Subject: Globe F-7s Revited!

Trying to relive some of my youth.

Looking at the Globe F Units. I know they were the beginning of the Athearn F Units.

The Globe F-7As I have only have the single headlight. SP Black Widow and SF War Bonnet.

I think I can live with that. I know there are other differences with the A Unit shells. How about the B Units?

In 1955 the Globe F-7 drives were good drives. I'm getting ready to refurbish several.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27001	From: Riverboy	Date: 3/5/2019
Subject: Re: Downsizine collection

Hello.

I'm not sure what a fair price for something like that might be, but send me photos of them, as well as anything else you are selling. I may be interested in some of it, and we can figure out a price.

Thanks.

Tod C Dwyer

On Tuesday, March 5, 2019, 11:18:25 AM EST, cnrmike1989@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

They are all CANADIAN NATIONAL (I was trying to collect all the numbers, came close, but not all) except one or two, and those two have one good side and one badly rusted side.

I also have a few Varney and other brands (Athearn and MDC are all pretty much sold already). COmments? Thanx.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27002	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/5/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

The early Athearn F7's were the Globe molds. Separate number boxes and the three piece horn. Single headlight. I have one. Athearn retooled with the molded on number boards, with the wrong shape, to get them out of the die and the double headlight for the Western roads and single piece horns.

Brad

In a message dated 3/5/2019 2:48:49 PM Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Trying to relive some of my youth.

Looking at the Globe F Units. I know they were the beginning of the Athearn F Units.

The Globe F-7As I have only have the single headlight. SP Black Widow and SF War Bonnet.

I think I can live with that. I know there are other differences with the A Unit shells. How about the B Units?

In 1955 the Globe F-7 drives were good drives. I'm getting ready to refurbish several.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27003	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 3/5/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!
--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 3/5/19, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 5, 2019, 3:22 PM

The early Athearn
F7's were the Globe molds. Separate number boxes and the
three piece horn. Single headlight. I have one. Athearn
retooled with the molded on number boards, with the wrong
shape, to get them out of the die and the double headlight
for the Western roads and single piece horns.

Brad

In a message dated 3/5/2019 2:48:49 PM Central Standard
Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Trying
to relive some of my youth.

Looking at the
Globe F Units. I know they were the beginning of the Athearn
F Units.

The
Globe F-7As I have only have the single headlight. SP Black
Widow and SF War Bonnet.

I
think I can live with that. I know there are other
differences with the A Unit shells. How about the B Units?

In
1955 the Globe F-7 drives were good drives. I'm getting
ready to refurbish several.

Bob
Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608 --
#yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp #yiv7591169608hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp #yiv7591169608ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc #yiv7591169608hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc .yiv7591169608ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span
.yiv7591169608underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p
span.yiv7591169608yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608file-title a, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:active, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:hover, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:active,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div#yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7591169608ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7591169608yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7591169608 input, #yiv7591169608 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7591169608
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7591169608logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-msg
p#yiv7591169608attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-reco
#yiv7591169608reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7591169608

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27004	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 3/5/2019
Subject: Re: Downsizine collection

You can post it here. I am in the same situation. I'd rather let my collection go piecemeal here rather than the whole thing at a fraction where it's not appreciated
--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 3/5/19, Riverboy river_dweller_ohio@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Downsizine collection
To: "cnrmike1989@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 5, 2019, 2:27 PM

Hello.
I'm not sure what a fair price
for something like that might be, but send me photos of
them, as well as anything else you are selling. I may be
interested in some of it, and we can figure out a
price.
Thanks.
Tod C Dwyer

On Tuesday, March 5, 2019, 11:18:25 AM
EST, cnrmike1989@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hello all, I haven't been on any
Forums in a long time. It's good to see some are still
here. I have to seriously downsize my train collection
(retirement didn't turn out as great for that dream
layout as I had thought!). I have maybe 20 Athearn (with a
few Menzies, Globe, etc. in there too) metal boxcars, some
assembled, some still unassembled, and maybe a couple
started but never finished. I am looking to sell the lot and
have no idea what is a fair price. The condition of these
things range from like new kits to very crudely assembled,
and everywhere in between. If I made a for sale list, could
I publish it here? I'm not looking to make big bucks,
just can't ring myself to throw them all out
though!
They are all CANADIAN
NATIONAL (I was trying to collect all the numbers, came
close, but not all) except one or two, and those two have
one good side and one badly rusted
side.
I also have a few Varney
and other brands (Athearn and MDC are all pretty much sold
already). COmments? Thanx.

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601 --
#yiv8659779601ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mkp #yiv8659779601hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mkp #yiv8659779601ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mkp .yiv8659779601ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mkp .yiv8659779601ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mkp .yiv8659779601ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8659779601ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8659779601ygrp-lc #yiv8659779601hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8659779601ygrp-lc .yiv8659779601ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601activity span
.yiv8659779601underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8659779601 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8659779601 dd.yiv8659779601last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8659779601 dd.yiv8659779601last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8659779601 dd.yiv8659779601last p
span.yiv8659779601yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8659779601 div.yiv8659779601attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8659779601 div.yiv8659779601attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8659779601 div.yiv8659779601file-title a, #yiv8659779601
div.yiv8659779601file-title a:active, #yiv8659779601
div.yiv8659779601file-title a:hover, #yiv8659779601
div.yiv8659779601file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8659779601 div.yiv8659779601photo-title a,
#yiv8659779601 div.yiv8659779601photo-title a:active,
#yiv8659779601 div.yiv8659779601photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8659779601 div.yiv8659779601photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8659779601 div#yiv8659779601ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8659779601ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8659779601yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8659779601 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8659779601 .yiv8659779601replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8659779601 input, #yiv8659779601 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8659779601
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8659779601logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-msg
p#yiv8659779601attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-reco
#yiv8659779601reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-sponsor #yiv8659779601ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-sponsor #yiv8659779601ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-sponsor #yiv8659779601ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8659779601 #yiv8659779601ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8659779601

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27005	From: Corlissbs	Date: 3/5/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Mine was gold for 98 cents. Years later I borrowed machine shop tools from one of the men who owned a Globe. Carl Traub. He made the dies for the F7. I was just starting my machine shop and Carl was a member of our model club.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 5, 2019, at 6:07 PM, Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 3/5/19, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 5, 2019, 3:22 PM

The early Athearn
F7's were the Globe molds. Separate number boxes and the
three piece horn. Single headlight. I have one. Athearn
retooled with the molded on number boards, with the wrong
shape, to get them out of the die and the double headlight
for the Western roads and single piece horns.

Brad

In a message dated 3/5/2019 2:48:49 PM Central Standard
Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Trying
to relive some of my youth.

Looking at the
Globe F Units. I know they were the beginning of the Athearn
F Units.

The
Globe F-7As I have only have the single headlight. SP Black
Widow and SF War Bonnet.

I
think I can live with that. I know there are other
differences with the A Unit shells. How about the B Units?

In
1955 the Globe F-7 drives were good drives. I'm getting
ready to refurbish several.

Bob
Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608 --
#yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp #yiv7591169608hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp #yiv7591169608ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc #yiv7591169608hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc .yiv7591169608ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span
.yiv7591169608underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p
span.yiv7591169608yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608file-title a, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:active, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:hover, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:active,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div#yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7591169608ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7591169608yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7591169608 input, #yiv7591169608 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7591169608
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7591169608logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-msg
p#yiv7591169608attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-reco
#yiv7591169608reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7591169608

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27006	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/5/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons, and then varnished it so the finish is in very good condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!
--------------------------------------------

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (3)

Image removed by sender.

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27007	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

I bought a SP (Black Widow) dummy A at the Whistle Stop in Pasadena, Ca, Dec. 1955. It was $4.95. The powered unit was $9.95.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 4:07 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 3/5/19, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 5, 2019, 3:22 PM

The early Athearn
F7's were the Globe molds. Separate number boxes and the
three piece horn. Single headlight. I have one. Athearn
retooled with the molded on number boards, with the wrong
shape, to get them out of the die and the double headlight
for the Western roads and single piece horns.

Brad

In a message dated 3/5/2019 2:48:49 PM Central Standard
Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Trying
to relive some of my youth.

Looking at the
Globe F Units. I know they were the beginning of the Athearn
F Units.

The
Globe F-7As I have only have the single headlight. SP Black
Widow and SF War Bonnet.

I
think I can live with that. I know there are other
differences with the A Unit shells. How about the B Units?

In
1955 the Globe F-7 drives were good drives. I'm getting
ready to refurbish several.

Bob
Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608 --
#yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp #yiv7591169608hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp #yiv7591169608ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc #yiv7591169608hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc .yiv7591169608ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span
.yiv7591169608underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p
span.yiv7591169608yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608file-title a, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:active, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:hover, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:active,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div#yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7591169608ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7591169608yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7591169608 input, #yiv7591169608 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7591169608
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7591169608logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-msg
p#yiv7591169608attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-reco
#yiv7591169608reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7591169608

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27008	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

I've been thinking about getting a Strombecker Rock Island Rocket. I had one in 1947 with a Varney power truck. But Varney freight trucks on the cars.

There have been virgin Rock Island Rocket kits on eBay recently with no takers.

It really was not much of a train but I was only 12 at the time. And it did run.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 8:03 PM

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons, and then varnished it so the finish is in very good condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!
--------------------------------------------

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (3)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27009	From: roger_aultman	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

--
Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============
Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons, and then varnished it so the finish is in very good condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!
--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003> Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21> Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21> Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-> Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA-> Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-> Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

• <https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html> Privacy • <mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> Unsubscribe • <https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/> Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

..

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27010	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revised!

Attachments :

Roger,

No sir. It definitely was not a Varney. I knew what is was, a plastic dummy F7 when I ordered it.

And I knew the difference between an early phase F3, like the Varney that by brother owned and was on the same layout, and a F7, Globe or any ones, although I don’t know that there were others at the time.

Smeesh, this was around 1953, I was 10 and had been messing with HO since 1950 when I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas 1949.

By that time, or within a year of that time, our motive power roster included a Mantua Shifter 0-4-0, a Varney “Brute” F3 A&B, a Lindsay NW2 (all my brothers), the Mikado, a Mantua Shark, the F7 and a Mantua little six, the latter four being mine.

I still have the Lindsay and the Shifter (had to replace the frame due to zinc pest) from my brother, maybe still have the Shark in amongst the various other’s I’ve acquired, and parts of the Mikado. I don’t recall what happened to the F7 or the little six, as I know I kept them for years. But, I never powered the F and I managed to break off the right end of the pilot beam of the little six rather quickly and never even thought of ordering a replacement back then.

Like a total idiot, I sold the Varney’s and am currently seeking to replace them. I really do have all the pieces to build A unit, including the brass spur gears as came with Erv’s unit.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 6:11 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (8)

Image removed by sender.

https://hoseeker.net/otherhotrains4.html

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27011	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

My Godfather has some of the Varney celluloid and wood streamliners in PRR colors that I recall he told me were cereal box premiums

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27012	From: Van Campbell	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Attachments :

Hey Guys,

I’ve got this group of Lindsay Drives, three powered and one unpowered, which appear to be for the Globe F7 shells. Can anybody give me some background of these? They are 8-Wheel and Flywheel Drive. I’m in the process of refurbishing them and could use some parts, most importantly lower cover plates that have the brackets to mount the Globe Blomberg side frames to. As you can see from the photos, two sets have the brackets, and the other set does not.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27013	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Besides these celluloid/acetate streamlined passenger cars, Varney also offered a plastic dummy F-3 diesel loco in 1955 by mail, for a box top from a General Mills Corp. cereal and $1. This may be where Roger got the notion that John's Globe F-7 may have been an F-3 -- by Varney. Around that same time, Varney also offered a hopper, gondola, outside-braced boxcar and caboose by mail; they were packed in corrugated cardboard boxes.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 12:52 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

My Godfather has some of the Varney celluloid and wood streamliners in PRR colors that I recall he told me were cereal box premiums

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27014	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

There's very little difference between the dummy Globe F7-B and the dummy Athearn F7-B, but one detail in particular is a positive way of I.D.ing them; the coupler pockets on the Globe model is completely surrounded by molded detail, whereas, the Athearn model is not. The Globe model has hoses and fixtures which entirely surround the coupler pockets. Athearn's coupler pockets have hoses and fixtures only at the sides, so that horn-hook couplers may be installed.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 5, 2019 7:50 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!
--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 3/5/19, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 5, 2019, 3:22 PM

The early Athearn
F7's were the Globe molds. Separate number boxes and the
three piece horn. Single headlight. I have one. Athearn
retooled with the molded on number boards, with the wrong
shape, to get them out of the die and the double headlight
for the Western roads and single piece horns.

Brad

In a message dated 3/5/2019 2:48:49 PM Central Standard
Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Trying
to relive some of my youth.

Looking at the
Globe F Units. I know they were the beginning of the Athearn
F Units.

The
Globe F-7As I have only have the single headlight. SP Black
Widow and SF War Bonnet.

I
think I can live with that. I know there are other
differences with the A Unit shells. How about the B Units?

In
1955 the Globe F-7 drives were good drives. I'm getting
ready to refurbish several.

Bob
Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608 --
#yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp #yiv7591169608hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp #yiv7591169608ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mkp .yiv7591169608ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc #yiv7591169608hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor
#yiv7591169608ygrp-lc .yiv7591169608ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608activity span
.yiv7591169608underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 dd.yiv7591169608last p
span.yiv7591169608yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608file-title a, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:active, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:hover, #yiv7591169608
div.yiv7591169608file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:active,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:hover,
#yiv7591169608 div.yiv7591169608photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 div#yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv7591169608ygrp-msg p a span.yiv7591169608yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv7591169608 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv7591169608 .yiv7591169608replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv7591169608 input, #yiv7591169608 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv7591169608
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-mlmsg #yiv7591169608logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-msg
p#yiv7591169608attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-reco
#yiv7591169608reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-sponsor #yiv7591169608ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv7591169608 #yiv7591169608ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv7591169608

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27015	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

The StromBecKer Rock Island Rocket train may be somewhat crude, but it's extremely nostalgic and still looks great for what it is when it's done well, including a a paint job on the exposed wood portions closely matching the dark maroon of the printed sides. The RI EMC TA engine was always one of my favorites and the paint scheme is hard to beat. Best of luck on this project, if you go for it.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 3:31 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I've been thinking about getting a Strombecker Rock Island Rocket. I had one in 1947 with a Varney power truck. But Varney freight trucks on the cars.

There have been virgin Rock Island Rocket kits on eBay recently with no takers.

It really was not much of a train but I was only 12 at the time. And it did run.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 8:03 PM

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons, and then varnished it so the finish is in very good condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!
--------------------------------------------

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (3)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27016	From: Dale Smith	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Message activity on VintageHO at yahoo groups

This morning in the course of doing a backup of Yahoo messages for
another group that has an absent moderator and is concerned about Yahoo
going belly up, I discovered that there has been a flurry of activity in
the VintageHO group on Yahoo. Some people have posted to both groups,
but responses may have gone only to Yahoo and are at risk of being lost
if Yahoo groups dies.

When a group moves from Yahoo to Groups.io, the best practice is to
shutdown the ability to post on the old group, which forces posts to the
new group.   We couldn't do that because the Owner and moderator, Don,
was shutout by Yahoo for who knows what reason.

I know it isn't easy to catch this and I only caught it because
PGOffline downloaded several new messages for the group, when I didn't
expect any. Aside from this month's flurry, there was one message
posted at the end of January, which I also missed. Making catching this
kind of thing, more difficult, I apparently haven't been receiving
VintageHO messages from Yahoo groups even though it doesn't say I am
bouncing, which is evidence that the stability of the Yahoo platform is
getting even worse.

It was a lot of work to move everything, except the messages, over to
groups.io. I hope someday to be able to make the old posts available as
an archive, but it may have to be as a separate database. Those recent
messages will be caught in that database. For now I recommend anyone who
wants access to old messages use PGOffline to download the database to
their own computer while Yahoo groups is still functioning more or
less. It is only $24.95 and the free version is fully featured for 30
days and would work to capture this group and all its data provided
people quit posting to it.

In the meantime, if you catch a post on the Yahoo group, please ask the
poster to repost on vintageHO@....   They may not be members so
they may have to join, but that is easy and I will try to approve their
first message promptly.   After that they won't be moderated.

Thanks for your help with this.

Dale Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27017	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Message activity on VintageHO at yahoo groups

Hi Dale,

I value highly the many photo albums and files of the old Yahoo group. Don's albums were chock full of info too. Were these all migrated to the io group?

Regards,
Walter

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 3:55 PM Dale Smith <dalefsmith@...> wrote:
This morning in the course of doing a backup of Yahoo messages for
another group that has an absent moderator and is concerned about Yahoo
going belly up, I discovered that there has been a flurry of activity in
the VintageHO group on Yahoo. Some people have posted to both groups,
but responses may have gone only to Yahoo and are at risk of being lost
if Yahoo groups dies.

When a group moves from Yahoo to Groups.io, the best practice is to
shutdown the ability to post on the old group, which forces posts to the
new group.   We couldn't do that because the Owner and moderator, Don,
was shutout by Yahoo for who knows what reason.

I know it isn't easy to catch this and I only caught it because
PGOffline downloaded several new messages for the group, when I didn't
expect any. Aside from this month's flurry, there was one message
posted at the end of January, which I also missed. Making catching this
kind of thing, more difficult, I apparently haven't been receiving
VintageHO messages from Yahoo groups even though it doesn't say I am
bouncing, which is evidence that the stability of the Yahoo platform is
getting even worse.

It was a lot of work to move everything, except the messages, over to
groups.io. I hope someday to be able to make the old posts available as
an archive, but it may have to be as a separate database. Those recent
messages will be caught in that database. For now I recommend anyone who
wants access to old messages use PGOffline to download the database to
their own computer while Yahoo groups is still functioning more or
less. It is only $24.95 and the free version is fully featured for 30
days and would work to capture this group and all its data provided
people quit posting to it.

In the meantime, if you catch a post on the Yahoo group, please ask the
poster to repost on vintageHO@....   They may not be members so
they may have to join, but that is easy and I will try to approve their
first message promptly.   After that they won't be moderated.

Thanks for your help with this.

Dale Smith

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#363): https://groups.io/g/VintageHO/message/363
Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/30289365/583278
Group Owner: VintageHO+owner@...
Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/VintageHO/leave/2727835/1751576161/xyzzy [bayerw2@...]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27018	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revised!

Attachments :

I didn’t know the mob was at interested in model trains.

Oh, wait. That was YOUR Godfather. I thought it said THE Godfather.

Old eyes don’t see like young ones.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 11:16 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

My Godfather has some of the Varney celluloid and wood streamliners in PRR colors that I recall he told me were cereal box premiums

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27019	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

My Godfather has some of the Varney celluloid and wood streamliners in PRR colors that I recall he told me were cereal box premiums

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27020	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

I've been thinking about getting a Strombecker Rock Island Rocket. I had one in 1947 with a Varney power truck. But Varney freight trucks on the cars.

There have been virgin Rock Island Rocket kits on eBay recently with no takers.

It really was not much of a train but I was only 12 at the time. And it did run.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 8:03 PM

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons, and then varnished it so the finish is in very good condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!
--------------------------------------------

Reply via web post

•

Reply to sender

•

Reply to group

•

Start a New Topic

•

Messages in this topic (3)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

Visit Your Group

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27021	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

My Godfather has some of the Varney celluloid and wood streamliners in PRR colors that I recall he told me were cereal box premiums

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27022	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Message activity on VintageHO at yahoo groups

Dale,

Has there been any activity at all on < VintageHO@... >? I remember joining when all (or most of) the rest of us joined, but after the first few messages being exchanged, I've never received one single message from the group from this address, except for the ones coming in now. OR, maybe Groups.io has not been used by the group at all (??). But I'm getting a problem with Yahoogroups right now. While Yahoogroups has always posted the messages I send in (and right away), only today there were two of three of my messages that were never posted. I went back to my "Mail Sent" box and sent them again and they still weren't posted -- and -- I don't know if this one will make it to the group. I did go back and send both messages again (the third attempt) and one of them was finally posted. After that, I went back and resent the other one for the fourth time and it too finally was posted. There may be some doubles by tomorrow -- or maybe nothing at all in doubles. Have no idea what's going on.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Smith <dalefsmith@...>
To: VintageHO <VintageHO@...>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 5:10 pm
Subject: Re: [VintageHO] Message activity on VintageHO at yahoo groups

They are all there. I don't think anyone has added to the photos on YG. Anyway from what I hear photos isn't working on Yahoo anyway. Most of the albums are under my name, but if anyone wants, I can return ownership to them. Some of them were uploaded by people who are no longer members. I would do it for all that I could if it weren't such a labor intensive effort. If someone wants to reorder or add to the album that's fine and no problem though.

Dale

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 3/6/19, al45390 <bayerw2@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [VintageHO] Message activity on VintageHO at yahoo groups

To: VintageHO@...

Cc: vintageho@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 1:50 PM

Hi Dale,

I value highly the many photo albums and files of

the old Yahoo group. Don's albums were chock full of

info too. Were these all migrated to the io

group?

Regards,

Walter

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 3:55

PM Dale Smith <dalefsmith@...>

wrote:

This

morning in the course of doing a backup of Yahoo messages

for

another group that has an absent moderator and is concerned

about Yahoo

going belly up, I discovered that there has been a flurry of

activity in

the VintageHO group on Yahoo. Some people have posted to

both groups,

but responses may have gone only to Yahoo and are at risk of

being lost

if Yahoo groups dies.

When a group moves from Yahoo to Groups.io, the best

practice is to

shutdown the ability to post on the old group, which forces

posts to the

new group. We couldn't do that because the Owner and

moderator, Don,

was shutout by Yahoo for who knows what reason.

I know it isn't easy to catch this and I only caught it

because

PGOffline downloaded several new messages for the group,

when I didn't

expect any. Aside from this month's flurry, there was

one message

posted at the end of January, which I also missed. Making

catching this

kind of thing, more difficult, I apparently haven't been

receiving

VintageHO messages from Yahoo groups even though it

doesn't say I am

bouncing, which is evidence that the stability of the Yahoo

platform is

getting even worse.

It was a lot of work to move everything, except the

messages, over to

groups.io. I hope someday to

be able to make the old posts available as

an archive, but it may have to be as a separate database.

Those recent

messages will be caught in that database. For now I

recommend anyone who

wants access to old messages use PGOffline to download the

database to

their own computer while Yahoo groups is still functioning

more or

less. It is only $24.95 and the free version is fully

featured for 30

days and would work to capture this group and all its data

provided

people quit posting to it.

In the meantime, if you catch a post on the Yahoo group,

please ask the

poster to repost on vintageHO@....

They may not be members so

they may have to join, but that is easy and I will try to

approve their

first message promptly. After that they won't be

moderated.

Thanks for your help with this.

Dale Smith

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#366): https://groups.io/g/VintageHO/message/366

Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/30289365/743492

Group Owner: VintageHO+owner@...

Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/VintageHO/leave/2792709/346861985/xyzzy [eriepacific@...]

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27023	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revised!

The group moved to Groups i/o, why are you on this site?

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 5:00 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revised!

I didn’t know the mob was at interested in model trains.

Oh, wait. That was YOUR Godfather. I thought it said THE Godfather.

Old eyes don’t see like young ones.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 11:16 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

My Godfather has some of the Varney celluloid and wood streamliners in PRR colors that I recall he told me were cereal box premiums

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new..

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups..com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27024	From: roger_aultman	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

--
Ray has that right, had not came accross discussion of cereal premiums for H-O freight cars other than the Varney's for KIX cereal. Is there knowledge of who molded the plastic for Globe? Also had some passenger cars that came as flat kits, seems they had the same neat non-operating couplers as the Globe models. Roger Aultman

-- "Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Besides these celluloid/acetate streamlined passenger cars, Varney also offered a plastic dummy F-3 diesel loco in 1955 by mail, for a box top from a General Mills Corp. cereal and $1. This may be where Roger got the notion that John's Globe F-7 may have been an F-3 -- by Varney. Around that same time, Varney also offered a hopper, gondola, outside-braced boxcar and caboose by mail; they were packed in corrugated cardboard boxes.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 12:52 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

My Godfather has some of the Varney celluloid and wood streamliners in PRR colors that I recall he told me were cereal box premiums

Don

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

#yiv1351554062 -- #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad p {margin:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc #yiv1351554062hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc .yiv1351554062ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span .yiv1351554062underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 dd..yiv1351554062last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div#yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv1351554062 o {font-size:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv1351554062 input, #yiv1351554062 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1351554062 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1..22em;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p#yiv1351554062attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco #yiv1351554062reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv1351554062

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27025	From: trainliker	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Attachments :

You could go to www.hoseeker.net and see what they have. I did and could not find these. What is shown for the Globe F7 is very different.

Once you are on the HOseeker home page, you click “Literature” and an amazing array of companies appears. One is “Lindsay”. Click on it and you get to a miscellaneous area that includes Lindsay instructions and advertisements.

This will take you directly to that page…

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Van Campbell atsf3751@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 2:26 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Hey Guys,

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27026	From: trainliker	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Attachments :

4099E032C7654AB684F53FE01B39B1AF.png

It is possible there were Lindsay parts involved but the assembly may be somebody else’s.

I’ve had no luck searching in the Model Railroader archive but did find one other that also had a flywheel and a fan, but it was an electric fan, by Custom-Model Railways in the March 1948 MR – but it otherwise isn’t close. Baker was another company that popped up, but didn’t seem to be it. And then Hobbytown of course. American Beauty Lines had one with a “Dynabalanced Centriclutch” which while interesting, is not helpful. So there were numerous outfits trying to make drives.

These drives are so interesting and such beasts, I figured MR would have wanted to review them. But I couldn’t find a review although maybe it’s there and I missed it. Also, it is possible they were meant for Varney F3’s and not the Globe. Or both. Or perhaps an ALCO cab unit.

While they do look commercially made, there are certainly people who could have made the castings themselves and done everything else. But it does look to me like it might not be home made. Then again, some of the commercial stuff of the day could itself look a bit home made.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Van Campbell atsf3751@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 2:26 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Hey Guys,

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27027	From: Van Campbell	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Attachments :

Yes, I’m very familiar with the single powered truck Lindsay Drives, and have many of those if the ones in my picture here are the ones you’re referring to. These 8-wheel drive chassis’ are drawing a blank with everyone I know, and I know some pretty knowledgeable guys as far as the Athearn/Globe lines are concerned.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27028	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/6/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revised!

Attachments :

I had one of the flat passenger car kits, maybe I still do.

It’s a virgin kit, never assembled.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 8:00 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (16)

Image removed by sender.

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27029	From: Van Campbell	Date: 3/7/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Thanks for your input Charles Kinzer. Someone out there knows what the heck these are, as a powered chassis identical to the ones I possess claimed $240 at auction on ebay several months ago. The frame and trucks both have “Lindsay” cast into them, and the motor design leaves no doubt as to it’s manufacturer. It’s a bona fide Lindsay item.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27030	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/7/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Attachments :

The motor is, as you say, undeniably Lindsay.

Over time, Lindsay produced many variations using the same basic motor. I was well aware of the Lindsay 4 wheel power truck as used in the NW2 and Alco FA’s, along with the 8 wheel drive conversion truck with the same gar box design as on the power truck. A very sweet combination that was also flexible enough to keep all wheels in contact with the rails.

It wasn’t until I learned to use the web that I became aware of all their products.

That said, the drives being discussed here were not known to me even though they are obviously Lindsay.

At 75, still learning more every day.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 5:16 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27031	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/7/2019
Subject: Re: Message activity on VintageHO at yahoo groups

Dale,

Many thanks for your reply, which explains why the Yahoo group was so quiet. As it WAS so quiet, I don't think it would be necessary to change the groups name since it's becoming increasingly apparent that most, if not all, members have moved to the groups.io.group. If there are any stragglers, they'll likely eventually drift over to here in time, especially if they're not receiving a single post in the Yahoo group after a further lapse in time. One more reason why everyone should ensure to move over to the groups.io group.

As I half-expected, I'm seeing doubles and triples of the messages I posted yesterday, which didn't get posted at that time (and which I re-posted to make sure they were not overlooked. My apologies for these redundant posts; I wasn't at all sure what to expect when feeling the messages needed re-posting when they didn't show up.

In my going back to them, I notice that the messages I replied to were posted on the Yahoo group, and while Bob M appears to still be on there (I'm not sure if he's on group.io yet) and posted a message on the StromBecKer Rock Island Rocket, he might think better on joining groups.io if he hasn't yet joined. ONLY for this reason, I'm CC'ing this message on the Yahoo Group to be seen there, as well as including Don Dellmann, whom appears possibly not be able to join groups.io (I sent my replies to him there, on Yahoogroups, on THE Godfather -- Oh!, that his Godfather! -- and on the Globe F-7B vs Athearn F-7B units). But then too, I see that John H, Brad S and Chuck K is still using the Yahoo group although perhaps only in response to those still using that venue, such as Van C, as I would tend to believe most members are already on groups.io (but retain Yahoo groups - as most do). I would suggest, to help discontinue the use of the Yahoo group, to make our replies to those using that group, to send the replies to the groups.io group and for now to the Yahoo group member's personal address who generated the original Yahoo message in any new thread -- leaving out (or removing) the Yahoogroups group address as necessary. I'd welcome your (or anyone's) input on this even though I realize it's a bit more work and won't always be remembered to do so. Your method looks fine too and perhaps this should help speed up the changeover without leaving anyone out in the cold. There's no reason not to join the groups.io group when it's not at all difficult.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Smith <dalefsmith@...>
To: VintageHO <VintageHO@...>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 10:15 pm
Subject: Re: [VintageHO] Message activity on VintageHO at yahoo groups

Ray,

Until January of this year there had been no activity on the Yahoo group since we created the new groups.io group. In January someone, who apparently didn't know of the move posted a message and no one replied and it died there. Then at the beginning of this month this happened again by a different person and there were a lot of replies, some of which were cross posted to groups.io, but some on Yahoo groups only. Someone on Groups.io only, such as some of our new members, would have found it difficult to follow the thread on groups.io, with only some of the messages coming through.

As to message delivery, I too am having problems with messages from Yahoo groups. On one group, messages have been dribbling in in random order all day long, some of them replies to messages I haven't seen yet.

Bottom line is we should all be using the new groups.io group. I will try to watch for posts on Yahoo and forward them over to the groups.io group for response and inform the sender. Please check when you respond that you are responding on groups.io. I may change the group name so it isn't the same on the two groups if I can. Perhaps Vintage HO Operators, as it was originally known.

Dale

On 3/6/2019 3:50 PM, erieberk via Groups.Io wrote:

Dale

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 3/6/19, al45390 <bayerw2@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [VintageHO] Message activity on VintageHO at yahoo groups

To: VintageHO@...

Cc: vintageho@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 1:50 PM

Hi Dale,

I value highly the many photo albums and files of

the old Yahoo group. Don's albums were chock full of

info too. Were these all migrated to the io

group?

Regards,

Walter

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 3:55

PM Dale Smith <dalefsmith@attnet>

wrote:

This

morning in the course of doing a backup of Yahoo messages

for

another group that has an absent moderator and is concerned

about Yahoo

going belly up, I discovered that there has been a flurry of

activity in

the VintageHO group on Yahoo. Some people have posted to

both groups,

but responses may have gone only to Yahoo and are at risk of

being lost

if Yahoo groups dies.

When a group moves from Yahoo to Groups.io, the best

practice is to

shutdown the ability to post on the old group, which forces

posts to the

new group. We couldn't do that because the Owner and

moderator, Don,

was shutout by Yahoo for who knows what reason.

I know it isn't easy to catch this and I only caught it

because

PGOffline downloaded several new messages for the group,

when I didn't

expect any. Aside from this month's flurry, there was

one message

posted at the end of January, which I also missed. Making

catching this

kind of thing, more difficult, I apparently haven't been

receiving

VintageHO messages from Yahoo groups even though it

doesn't say I am

bouncing, which is evidence that the stability of the Yahoo

platform is

getting even worse.

It was a lot of work to move everything, except the

messages, over to

groups.io. I hope someday to

be able to make the old posts available as

an archive, but it may have to be as a separate database.

Those recent

messages will be caught in that database. For now I

recommend anyone who

wants access to old messages use PGOffline to download the

database to

their own computer while Yahoo groups is still functioning

more or

less. It is only $24.95 and the free version is fully

featured for 30

days and would work to capture this group and all its data

provided

people quit posting to it.

In the meantime, if you catch a post on the Yahoo group,

please ask the

poster to repost on vintageHO@....

They may not be members so

they may have to join, but that is easy and I will try to

approve their

first message promptly. After that they won't be

moderated.

Thanks for your help with this.

Dale Smith

Virus-free. www.avg.com

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27032	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/7/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Roger,

It was Irv Athearn who molded the plastic Globe F-7's after buying out the Globe trade name on July 2, 1951. He used the Globe name in marketing his first (plastic) F-7's, instead of his Athearn name, primarily because he was not totally convinced that plastic models -- any plastic models, to include rolling stock as well as motive power -- would win the favor of the modeling public. He didn't release his Globe F-7's until mid-1954, three years after acquiring the globe name and remained concentrated on his extensive line of metal freight cars, believing (and advertising) that his metal cars were more realistic than others because of the very fact he used metal to represent metal components of the prototype cars. The Globe name was used for his F-7's so that if this venture failed, it would not adversely impact the Athearn name.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 9:01 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

#yiv1351554062 -- #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad p {margin:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc #yiv1351554062hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc .yiv1351554062ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span .yiv1351554062underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 dd...yiv1351554062last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div#yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv1351554062 o {font-size:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv1351554062 input, #yiv1351554062 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1351554062 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1..22em;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p#yiv1351554062attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco #yiv1351554062reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv1351554062

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27033	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/7/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Attachments :

Van,

What you have here in Lindsay drives are their L-1010 Motor & Gearbox unit, originally priced at $9.95. The line of these motor/gearbox combinations can be found in the Lindsay catalogs (prior to 1956), but for those not having access to any Lindsay catalogs, the complete Lindsay line can be found in Kemtron catalogs after late November 1956, as Kemtron bought out Lindsay on that date. There were three very similar "Motors and Gearboxes" produced, with the largest being the L-1010; the other two were the L-190 (at $8.95) and the L-570 ((at $8.50), each a bit smaller than the other to accommodate their specific applications.

None were manufactured to be used for a Globe locomotive, but like a number of other innovations, aftermarket products were produced to apply this motor/gear unit to other manufacturers' motive power models. I believe somewhere in this thread I may have read that these Lindsay motor/gear units were made to be used with Varney F-3's, but I tend to doubt that immensely as being specifically made for Varney's locos. I've seen literally 100's of Varney F-3's and have never once seen a Lindsay motor in one of them. At one time, I owned no less than 32 Varney die-cast F-3 A's and none had a Lindsay motor. While all these were sold off, I still have at least a dozen or so Varney diecast F-3's (none with Lindsay motors), but the entrepreneurially-inclined individual can apply most any motor to whatever model he chooses. So, the possibility remains that a Varney F-3 or two may exist with a Lindsay motor for power.

Actually, the Lindsay L-1010 was specifically designed to power the Lindsay die-cast ALCo 1600 HP Diesel Road Locomotive (FA - A & B Units), which were produced until John English bought the dies & tooling for them (the ALCo FA's) from Kemtron. John English produced a number of them for Hobbytown of Boston, but this is getting off-topic. Kemtron continued to produce all Lindsay products after buying that company out, until such time as they divested themselves of such certain models and accessories as these.

BTW, Lindsay nor Kemtron ever produced a flywheel for these Motor/Gearbox units as pictured in your photos. These flywheels were another aftermarket product designed to fit this motor and perhaps other manufacturers' motors having the same shaft diameter. Likewise, neither Lindsay nor Kemtron ever produced a frame designed for adapting these motors to a Globe loco. Again -- an aftermarket product, unless this is the same frame that fits their ALCo FA loco. The three motor/gearbox units had shafts extending out both ends which would accommodate an aftermarket flywheel nicely, on the longer shaft yours are mounted on.

Other similar Lindsay motor and/or drives that were produced were the L-740 -- a Self-Contained Power Truck (at $13,95) having a 9 ft wheel base - and which did have its own flywheel, which could be adapted to any number of model locos, the L-1430 8-Wheel Drive Conversion Truck (at $5.95) also having a 9 ft wheel base (less motor) and very different in design from the truck portion of the L-740, and finally the L-594 (w/36" wheels) and L-595 (w/40" wheels) Drive units (at $3.75 ea.) being two wheel drives only, to be powered by a motor of the modeler's choice.

As for Blomberg sideframes, While Lindsay did produce ALCo Switcher (L-605), ALCo Road Diesel (L-607), ALCo Road Diesel (L-6072), ALCo 6-Wheel Diesel (L-321), ALCo 6-Wheel Diesel (L-1047), EMD Switcher (L-354), EMD 4-Wheel Diesel (L-608) and EMD 6-Wheel Diesel (L-147) truck sideframes, they didn't offer these Blomberg sideframes. All Lindsay sideframes were lost-wax brass castings except for the L-6072 and the L-1047, which were zamac.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Campbell atsf3751@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 5:26 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Hey Guys,

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27034	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/7/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

I remember when Varney came out with the plastic cars. The older modelers thought it was horrible and would never last.

Brad Smith

In a message dated 3/7/2019 10:33:45 AM Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Roger,

It was Irv Athearn who molded the plastic Globe F-7's after buying out the Globe trade name on July 2, 1951. He used the Globe name in marketing his first (plastic) F-7's, instead of his Athearn name, primarily because he was not totally convinced that plastic models -- any plastic models, to include rolling stock as well as motive power -- would win the favor of the modeling public. He didn't release his Globe F-7's until mid-1954, three years after acquiring the globe name and remained concentrated on his extensive line of metal freight cars, believing (and advertising) that his metal cars were more realistic than others because of the very fact he used metal to represent metal components of the prototype cars. The Globe name was used for his F-7's so that if this venture failed, it would not adversely impact the Athearn name.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: raul@wi..rr.com [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 9:01 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

--
Ray has that right, had not came accross discussion of cereal premiums for H-O freight cars other than the Varney's for KIX cereal. Is there knowledge of who molded the plastic for Globe? Also had some passenger cars that came as flat kits, seems they had the same neat non-operating couplers as the Globe models. Roger Aultman

-- "Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Besides these celluloid/acetate streamlined passenger cars, Varney also offered a plastic dummy F-3 diesel loco in 1955 by mail, for a box top from a General Mills Corp. cereal and $1. This may be where Roger got the notion that John's Globe F-7 may have been an F-3 -- by Varney. Around that same time, Varney also offered a hopper, gondola, outside-braced boxcar and caboose by mail; they were packed in corrugated cardboard boxes.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 12:52 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

My Godfather has some of the Varney celluloid and wood streamliners in PRR colors that I recall he told me were cereal box premiums

Don

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

#yiv1351554062 -- #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad p {margin:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc #yiv1351554062hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc .yiv1351554062ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span .yiv1351554062underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 dd....yiv1351554062last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a, #yiv1351554062 div..yiv1351554062photo-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div#yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv1351554062 o {font-size:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv1351554062 input, #yiv1351554062 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1351554062 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1..22em;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p#yiv1351554062attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco #yiv1351554062reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv1351554062

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27035	From: dale2680	Date: 3/7/2019
Subject: Please do not post to this list - we have moved to vintageHO@groups.

Vintage HO@yahoogroups.com an active group. With the approval of the owner of this group, Don Dellman, we moved to vintageHO@.... We couldn't do the standard transfer that would bring all the old members over to the new platform because the owner of this group was locked out by Yahoo and support from Yahoo was and still is unavailable. Since the administrator is locked out of this group, he cannot shut it down or disable posting or put up a banner telling you to go to groups.io. We have had very little activity on this group until recently when there was a flurry based on posts made by members of this Yahoo group who are not signed up for groups.io. Since it is difficult to tell which list the messages come from, several members who are on both lists responded to both lists causing a bit of confusion.

The Yahoo groups platform at the present is unstable and several individuals, including me, are not getting messages from this group, but are getting the responses from groups.io. Therefore it is hit or miss that anyone will get your messages and you may not see responses which only go to the other group.

I would like to invite Van Campbell, Roger Aultman, Riverboy, Louis Niederlander, and Richard Carbo and any other Yahoo Vintage HO members to join our group on groups.io. All the resources of this Yahoo group, including the files and photos now reside with that group and are easy to access, without any of the dysfunctionality of Yahoo groups.

Dale Smith

Co-Owner of VintageHO@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27036	From: dale2680	Date: 3/7/2019
Subject: Please Contact Me

I would appreciate it if Diane "DiDi" Morgan, didimorgan53218 and westpac67 would please contact me at dfsmith26@... about this group.

Dale Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27037	From: dale2680	Date: 3/7/2019
Subject: Re: Please Contact Me

That is dfsmith26"atsign"sbcglobal"dot"net

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27038	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 3/8/2019
Subject: Re: Please Contact Me

See my other email
--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 3/7/19, dalefsmith@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Please Contact Me
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, March 7, 2019, 11:24 PM

I would appreciate it if Diane
"DiDi" Morgan, didimorgan53218 and westpac67 would
please contact me at dfsmith26@... about this
group.
Dale Smith

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254 --
#yiv1081341254ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mkp #yiv1081341254hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mkp #yiv1081341254ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mkp .yiv1081341254ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mkp .yiv1081341254ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mkp .yiv1081341254ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1081341254ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1081341254ygrp-lc #yiv1081341254hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1081341254ygrp-lc .yiv1081341254ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254activity span
.yiv1081341254underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1081341254 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1081341254 dd.yiv1081341254last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1081341254 dd.yiv1081341254last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1081341254 dd.yiv1081341254last p
span.yiv1081341254yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv1081341254 div.yiv1081341254attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1081341254 div.yiv1081341254attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv1081341254 div.yiv1081341254file-title a, #yiv1081341254
div.yiv1081341254file-title a:active, #yiv1081341254
div.yiv1081341254file-title a:hover, #yiv1081341254
div.yiv1081341254file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1081341254 div.yiv1081341254photo-title a,
#yiv1081341254 div.yiv1081341254photo-title a:active,
#yiv1081341254 div.yiv1081341254photo-title a:hover,
#yiv1081341254 div.yiv1081341254photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1081341254 div#yiv1081341254ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv1081341254ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1081341254yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv1081341254 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv1081341254 .yiv1081341254replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv1081341254 input, #yiv1081341254 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1081341254
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1081341254logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-msg
p#yiv1081341254attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-reco
#yiv1081341254reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-sponsor #yiv1081341254ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-sponsor #yiv1081341254ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-sponsor #yiv1081341254ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv1081341254 #yiv1081341254ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv1081341254

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27039	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/8/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

I thought it was Carl Traub who produced the Globe F-7s and later sold to Athearn. No?

Regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2019 11:33 AM
To: raul@...; vintageho@...
Cc: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Roger,

It was Irv Athearn who molded the plastic Globe F-7's after buying out the Globe trade name on July 2, 1951. He used the Globe name in marketing his first (plastic) F-7's, instead of his Athearn name, primarily because he was not totally convinced that plastic models -- any plastic models, to include rolling stock as well as motive power -- would win the favor of the modeling public. He didn't release his Globe F-7's until mid-1954, three years after acquiring the globe name and remained concentrated on his extensive line of metal freight cars, believing (and advertising) that his metal cars were more realistic than others because of the very fact he used metal to represent metal components of the prototype cars. The Globe name was used for his F-7's so that if this venture failed, it would not adversely impact the Athearn name.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: raul@wi..rr.com [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 9:01 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

...

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
.yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

#yiv1351554062 -- #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad p {margin:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc #yiv1351554062hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc .yiv1351554062ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span .yiv1351554062underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 dd....yiv1351554062last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a, #yiv1351554062 div..yiv1351554062photo-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div#yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv1351554062 o {font-size:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv1351554062 input, #yiv1351554062 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1351554062 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1..22em;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p#yiv1351554062attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco #yiv1351554062reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv1351554062

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27040	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/8/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

To start off here in providing a little history, Globe Models incorporated in December, 1943 and began work on an HO Scale USRA-type Mikado locomotive, intended to compete against Varney's steam locos. It never did make it into production,. however, although they were successful with producing a line of prefabricated HO scale turnouts. They offered nothing else though, until well after the War, when they released their first metal boxcar kit, in April of 1948. By the end of 1949, the line included a stock car kit with Tenite II plastic sides and a series of matching paints for the modeler to finish these kits. Carl Traub was only half of the Globe Models as he was partnered in this business with Frank Taylor. Primarily, what this early Globe Models company produced under Traub and Taylor was the extensive line of metal freight car kits, to now include a metal refrigerator car and several types of metal tank cars in 1950. However, in 1951, Frank Taylor (the other founding partner of Globe) left the business which left Carl Traub unable to run both the Globe Models company and his own woodworking company. Irv Athearn bought the Globe Models company from Carl Traub on July 2nd, of that same year, well before any Globe F-7's were ever produced. As I had stated a day or two ago, Athearn didn't start producing the Globe F-7's until 1954 (and Globe certainly never produced them before the company was sold). Carl Traub was no longer in the picture as of three years prior to the Globe F-7's production.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: raul@... <raul@...>; vintageho@... <vintageho@...>; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 8, 2019 9:43 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I thought it was Carl Traub who produced the Globe F-7s and later sold to Athearn. No?

Regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2019 11:33 AM
To: raul@...; vintageho@...
Cc: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Roger,

It was Irv Athearn who molded the plastic Globe F-7's after buying out the Globe trade name on July 2, 1951. He used the Globe name in marketing his first (plastic) F-7's, instead of his Athearn name, primarily because he was not totally convinced that plastic models -- any plastic models, to include rolling stock as well as motive power -- would win the favor of the modeling public. He didn't release his Globe F-7's until mid-1954, three years after acquiring the globe name and remained concentrated on his extensive line of metal freight cars, believing (and advertising) that his metal cars were more realistic than others because of the very fact he used metal to represent metal components of the prototype cars. The Globe name was used for his F-7's so that if this venture failed, it would not adversely impact the Athearn name.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: raul@wi..rr.com [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 9:01 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

....

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
..yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

#yiv1351554062 -- #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad p {margin:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc #yiv1351554062hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc .yiv1351554062ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span .yiv1351554062underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 dd....yiv1351554062last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a, #yiv1351554062 div..yiv1351554062photo-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div#yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv1351554062 o {font-size:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv1351554062 input, #yiv1351554062 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1351554062 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1..22em;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p#yiv1351554062attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco #yiv1351554062reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv1351554062

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27041	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/8/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

I thought it was Carl Traub who produced the Globe F-7s and later sold to Athearn. No?

Regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2019 11:33 AM
To: raul@...; vintageho@...
Cc: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Roger,

It was Irv Athearn who molded the plastic Globe F-7's after buying out the Globe trade name on July 2, 1951. He used the Globe name in marketing his first (plastic) F-7's, instead of his Athearn name, primarily because he was not totally convinced that plastic models -- any plastic models, to include rolling stock as well as motive power -- would win the favor of the modeling public. He didn't release his Globe F-7's until mid-1954, three years after acquiring the globe name and remained concentrated on his extensive line of metal freight cars, believing (and advertising) that his metal cars were more realistic than others because of the very fact he used metal to represent metal components of the prototype cars. The Globe name was used for his F-7's so that if this venture failed, it would not adversely impact the Athearn name.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: raul@wi..rr.com [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 6, 2019 9:01 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

On Wed, 3/6/19, raul@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 6:10 AM

--

Sure that was not a V arney F3. Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Don,

I got a Globe A unit by sending in a coupon from a cereal
box, plus, as I seem to recall, something like the afore
mentioned ninety-eight cents.

Also, I keep forgetting to post a photo, I recently acquired
of a powered Strombecker B&O E unit that is in fantastic
condition. I got it from the original owner who assembled it
very nicely, complete with exhaust stacks and grab irons,
and then varnished it so the finish is in very good
condition albeit somewhat darker than new.

All it needs to be operable is a new rubber band (or
O-ring).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 6:08 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

I can't tell any difference in the B;s. I remember when
the dummy A units units cost 98 cents!!

--------------------------------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/27003;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJwYWNyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA-?act=reply&messageNum=27003>
Reply via web post

•

<mailto:don.dellmann@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to sender

•

<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Globe%20F-7s%20Revited%21>
Reply to group

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2tnN2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Start a New Topic

•

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/27000;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZWloMWw0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyNzAwMwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTAEdHBjSWQDMjcwMDA->
Messages in this topic (3)

_____

<https://yho.com/1wwmgg> Have you tried the highest
rated email app?

With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest
rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now
you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and
more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB
of free cloud storage.

_____

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmazZkM2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NTE4MzM0MTA->
Visit Your Group

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjMyZW9nBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTU1MTgzMzQxMA-->

•
<https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html>
Privacy •
<mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
Unsubscribe •
<https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>
Terms of Use

SPONSORED LINKS

....

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631 --
#yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp #yiv4904666631ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mkp .yiv4904666631ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc #yiv4904666631hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor
#yiv4904666631ygrp-lc .yiv4904666631ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631activity span
..yiv4904666631underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 dd.yiv4904666631last p
span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631file-title a, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:active, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:hover, #yiv4904666631
div.yiv4904666631file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:active,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:hover,
#yiv4904666631 div.yiv4904666631photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 div#yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a span.yiv4904666631yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv4904666631 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv4904666631 .yiv4904666631replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv4904666631 input, #yiv4904666631 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv4904666631
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-mlmsg #yiv4904666631logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-msg
p#yiv4904666631attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco
#yiv4904666631reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-sponsor #yiv4904666631ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv4904666631 #yiv4904666631ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv4904666631

#yiv1351554062 -- #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp #yiv1351554062ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad p {margin:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mkp .yiv1351554062ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc #yiv1351554062hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ygrp-lc .yiv1351554062ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062activity span .yiv1351554062underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 dd....yiv1351554062last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 dd.yiv1351554062last p span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a, #yiv1351554062 div..yiv1351554062photo-title a:active, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:hover, #yiv1351554062 div.yiv1351554062photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 div#yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1351554062yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv1351554062 o {font-size:0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv1351554062 .yiv1351554062replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv1351554062 input, #yiv1351554062 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1351554062 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1..22em;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1351554062logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-msg p#yiv1351554062attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco #yiv1351554062reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-sponsor #yiv1351554062ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv1351554062 #yiv1351554062ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv1351554062

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27042	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/9/2019
Subject: Vintage Lindsay Drives

I saw a Lindsay 8-wheel drive FA at a train show today, but I didn't check the price. It was, however, in the original box. The dealer also had some Hobbytown of Boston kits, both vintage and new; turns our that he's become a licensed dealer for the new owners.

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27043	From: Van Campbell	Date: 3/9/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

Just a few pictures of those drives mentioned in this thread. Included are the Globe “Single Drive” and “Dual Drive” geared chassis’ for their F7 shells. These were also marketed by Athearn in their 1957 catalog with applications for both the F7 and GP9. Also shown are the Pittman “Reduction Drives” mentioned. These are excellent runners, by Hi-F standards, and I have about a dozen of them in F7 and GP9 form. Also pictured is another brand of a “reduction drive” fitted to a F7 chassis to which I haven’t been able to specific manufacturer. It’s far too refined of design and manufacture to be someone’s “backshop” contraption. I refurbished it, and it also runs very well. Ray, as far as extant Athearn Hi-F’s re concerned, I myself have close to 120 of them, virtually all operable and I’m not the only one who still collects and operates these. I have many friends in my Athearn FB group that put my collection to shame! LOL! Here’s a picture of a standard pair of Hi-F chassis’, one outfitted with a Model Train Manufacturers Operating MARS Light.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27044	From: Corlissbs	Date: 3/9/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Beautiful pics. Thank you. I have been a “student” of early drives for years.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 9, 2019, at 8:56 PM, Van Campbell atsf3751@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Just a few pictures of those drives mentioned in this thread. Included are the Globe “Single Drive” and “Dual Drive” geared chassis’ for their F7 shells. These were also marketed by Athearn in their 1957 catalog with applications for both the F7 and GP9. <3AC0948CE26E4C1EB5F5C384BED38AB1.jpg><D58F57AD89B440B798D3CB125CB79A34.jpg>Also shown are the Pittman “Reduction Drives” mentioned. <E2D79913C0754FE2AA4F65CC25713C10.jpg>These are excellent runners, by Hi-F standards, and I have about a dozen of them in F7 and GP9 form. Also pictured is another brand of a “reduction drive” fitted to a F7 chassis to which I haven’t been able to specific manufacturer. It’s far too refined of design and manufacture to be someone’s “backshop” contraption. I refurbished it, and it also runs very well. <ADF4F9DFCD82496F971A87B79B0C907E.jpg>Ray, as far as extant Athearn Hi-F’s re concerned, I myself have close to 120 of them, virtually all operable and I’m not the only one who still collects and operates these. I have many friends in my Athearn FB group that put my collection to shame! LOL! Here’s a picture of a standard pair of Hi-F chassis’, one outfitted with a Model Train Manufacturers Operating MARS Light. <C47E89E7DBFB4C4F9EDD4AAB65E79039.jpg>

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27045	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/9/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Now, THAT was a rare find as I would consider it -- the Lindsay FA in its original box. The original box always adds much value to the collector, and even if one is not a collector it's still good to have it to store the loco away if the layout is going to be unattended for a while. As no doubt you must be aware, Hobbytown -- even the early ones -- has always been among the best of runners. I'm not 100% up on them, but I don't believe that any of the early ones had flywheel drive, although that still didn't prevent them from being great runners. I have a pair of the Hobbytown PA's that I painted into D&H. Used to photograph them on the Laurentian after Bucky Dumaine acquired them, as often as I could, and on the Adirondack after Bruce Sterzing reacquired the two of them sent to GE and had them all rebuilt into PA4's.

Ray Wetzel .

-----Original Message-----
From: Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 9, 2019 7:47 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27046	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/9/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

Thanks for all the pics. Brought back lots of good memories. Had a pair of the Globe F7's with the dual drive; they ran extremely well. Never saw any as single drive.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Campbell atsf3751@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 9, 2019 9:56 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27047	From: Corlissbs	Date: 3/10/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

I started visiting the Hobbytown store in Boston as an early teenager. Would ride the New Haven to Boston and go hobby shopping. They had a Hobbytown engine running in the window 24/7. I was frustrated with locos that ran poorly and wanted a Hobbytown. My first of their engines was a PA and an RS-3. These were the early drives. The only difference between the early and later was the addition of the flywheel or clutch. You got to choose which one you wanted. They were beautiful running locomotives. Brass wheels, but everything was brass back then. I am glad to see them still being produced.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Sent from Brad’s iPad

On Mar 10, 2019, at 12:24 AM, Raymond Wetzel eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Now, THAT was a rare find as I would consider it -- the Lindsay FA in its original box. The original box always adds much value to the collector, and even if one is not a collector it's still good to have it to store the loco away if the layout is going to be unattended for a while. As no doubt you must be aware, Hobbytown -- even the early ones -- has always been among the best of runners. I'm not 100% up on them, but I don't believe that any of the early ones had flywheel drive, although that still didn't prevent them from being great runners. I have a pair of the Hobbytown PA's that I painted into D&H. Used to photograph them on the Laurentian after Bucky Dumaine acquired them, as often as I could, and on the Adirondack after Bruce Sterzing reacquired the two of them sent to GE and had them all rebuilt into PA4's.

Ray Wetzel .

-----Original Message-----
From: Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 9, 2019 7:47 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

I saw a Lindsay 8-wheel drive FA at a train show today, but I didn't check the price. It was, however, in the original box. The dealer also had some Hobbytown of Boston kits, both vintage and new; turns our that he's become a licensed dealer for the new owners.

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27048	From: Van Campbell	Date: 3/10/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

Ray,

Here are couple of those 1955 Athearn Sets you’re referring to. These are from my private collection, and they are indeed comprised of models of Globe design, both the locomotives and the cars.

The AR-4350’s F-Unit has a “single drive” Globe mechanism, with only the rear truck driven:

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

The AR-4250 includes a “dual drive” A-unit with both trucks driven, and a dummy B-Unit:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27049	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/10/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

Van,

EXTREMELY nice (Exquisite). They're the ones I meant. Unless I'm wrong, not many of these sets are to be seen today, especially not in this condition. Makes me drool < g >. Thanks for sharing.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Campbell atsf3751@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 10, 2019 9:57 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Ray,

Here are couple of those 1955 Athearn Sets you’re referring to. These are from my private collection, and they are indeed comprised of models of Globe design, both the locomotives and the cars.

The AR-4350’s F-Unit has a “single drive” Globe mechanism, with only the rear truck driven:

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

The AR-4250 includes a “dual drive” A-unit with both trucks driven, and a dummy B-Unit:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27050	From: Van Campbell	Date: 3/10/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Thanks Ray. Yes, I was very fortunate to have run across them indeed. There’s a AR-4150 PRR A-B 4-Car Set that’s been listed on eBay for about two years going, and although it’s not quite in the condition mine are in, and he’s wanting a pretty penny for it, I’m really surprised someone hasn’t tried to talk him down a bit and acquired the set. He reduced the price to $225 for a spell, but still no takers. As a collector of vintage Athearn Train Sets, I’d have picked it up at that time hadn’t I already had some examples of my own.

Van B. Campbell

https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-ATHEARN-Train-Set-PENNSYLVANIA-RAILROAD-new-size-HO-scale-in-miniature/312517073930?hash=item48c3781c0a:g:-XwAAOSw6GhcfwqZ

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27051	From: Van Campbell	Date: 3/10/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

Hey Guys,

The Globe mail-order “Cereal Train” was a promotion by Carnation. Here’s a few pics of one that belongs to one of my Athearn Collector peers:

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

And here’s that IMC GP9 Set Ray’s referring to. This example is in my private collection and is comprised of Athearn Yellow Box items produced in the mid-1960’s. This set is one of only five complete sets known to exist. Van B. Campbell

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27052	From: Van Campbell	Date: 3/10/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

More pics of the Carnation Set

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27053	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/10/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Van,

You were very fortunate, indeed! The set you describe as being on eBay seems way overpriced, but then I really have no idea what it's actually worth. While the Greenberg's Athearn guide gives approximate values for most everything else estimated in 1987 when it was published, it only provides the prices that these sets sold for at retail. For the most part, they ranged from $14.95 to $29.95, with about $25.00 being the average. There were two larger sets though, that sold for 39.95, a UP/BN set and a B&O set, both labeled "The Continental." They consisted of a powered F-7, a powered GP-9, eight assorted freight cars and two cabooses, a pair of manual snap switches, fourteen sections of curve track eleven sections of straight track, rerailer and terminal connector. While it doesn't state this, it would seem that a power pack should be in these sets too. There were eight sets priced lower @ $10.95 each; I don't know how Irv could have made them for that and still make a profit on them.

For this book's train set values, The author (Mallerich) states: "Due to the fact that train sets were intended for the mass-market consumers, who, unlike hobbyists, tend to actually consume the products, the number of complete, packaged train sets available in the collector marketplace is fairly small. For this reason, it is difficult to estimate the current value for the full range of sets. However, it is reasonable to indicate that a complete set in its original packaging will be worth the sum of the value of its components and a fair premium -- which is negotiated by the buyer and seller -- for the packaging." I think he was underestimating their value just in writing that, but who am I to say. I counted 232 train sets that Irv produced, give or take a couple, as I did a fast count. Irv was pretty busy.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Campbell atsf3751@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 10, 2019 4:02 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Van B. Campbell

https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-ATHEARN-Train-Set-PENNSYLVANIA-RAILROAD-new-size-HO-scale-in-miniature/312517073930?hash=item48c3781c0a:g:-XwAAOSw6GhcfwqZ

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27054	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Attachments :

Ray,

I recently acquired a Lindsay FA, 8 wheel drive, never assembled with all the drive components and detail parts in their original packaging.

However, the basic shell was rotted away almost to dust.

I have other virgin shells so I now have a complete, untouched FA kit.

Question? Yeah, what do I do with it. Keep it, sell it or build it?

Sitting here scratching my head and getting dandruff all over my glasses.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2019 12:25 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27055	From: Dave Audley	Date: 3/11/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Build it, of course!

Dave Audley

On Sunday, March 10, 2019, 8:21:31 p.m. MDT, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Ray,

I recently acquired a Lindsay FA, 8 wheel drive, never assembled with all the drive components and detail parts in their original packaging.

However, the basic shell was rotted away almost to dust.

I have other virgin shells so I now have a complete, untouched FA kit.

Question? Yeah, what do I do with it. Keep it, sell it or build it?

Sitting here scratching my head and getting dandruff all over my glasses.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2019 12:25 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27056	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/11/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

John.

How I look at such a decision (and it's not always an easy one) is that unless it's a new in the box Penn Line Reading Crusader that might be worth $1200 built and that could be worth upwards of $2000 as a mint kit, get the most enjoyment out of it by building and operating it. While it still is a scarce piece, it's only worth top dollar depending on finding the right buyer for it. If you're in the hobby to make money on your acquisitions, or maybe just to get as much enjoyment out of them as a "collector's" piece, then don't build it -- and a lot of hobbyists of vintage items are collectors with that being their prime motive -- but if you enjoy operating your vintage trains, go for it (build it). Even while it may reduce the value somewhat, if built well and carefully maintained it will still have a considerable worth, especially if you have the box for it. Each of us are different, with some of us building everything that comes into our hands and others preferring to keep everything as mint as possible, but these latter hobbyists don't get the enjoyment out of them that was intended by the manufacture of them. I believe that's what Don D's re3commendation has been -- to operate them. It's easy for me to say when I have one of these same kits that needs building, but that's only because I have other kits needing to be built first. Once we're gone though and our trains are sold off at an estate sale we can't reap the profits from them anyway. Looking at it another way, if you put it up on eBay and it doesn't happen to be seen by many hobbyists who would otherwise be interested in it, there's no guarantee that it will bring a good price but you're still obligated to sell it for the ending bid, no matter what it is.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 10, 2019 9:21 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Ray,

I recently acquired a Lindsay FA, 8 wheel drive, never assembled with all the drive components and detail parts in their original packaging.

However, the basic shell was rotted away almost to dust.

I have other virgin shells so I now have a complete, untouched FA kit.

Question? Yeah, what do I do with it. Keep it, sell it or build it?

Sitting here scratching my head and getting dandruff all over my glasses.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2019 12:25 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27057	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/11/2019
Subject: Re: Globe F-7s Revited!

Attachments :

Hey Van,

Yes, the promotional Athearn plastic streamliner train was available in coordination with the Carnation Milk Company -- at reduced prices, by sending in one yellow panel from Carnation Instant Chocolate Flavored Drink for each kit and the amount of money required for that kit of choice. As the pics show, they came in corrugated cardboard cartons but did not have paperboard kit boxes. The were shipped directly from Carnation. The offer expired in December 31, 1956, but then I had written of these items here a while ago as a post although it probably isn't easily accessible (it wasn't filed). Thanks for sharing these photos of this part of your collection. Good to see what these kits actually look like. I never expected to see the International Minerals & Chemical Corp. GP-9 and set; didn't know there are that few of these kits in existance. Great collector piece -- really nice.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Campbell atsf3751@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 10, 2019 4:30 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7s Revited!

Hey Guys,

The Globe mail-order “Cereal Train” was a promotion by Carnation. Here’s a few pics of one that belongs to one of my Athearn Collector peers:

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27058	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/11/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Attachments :

Thanks Ray.

My first thought is to indeed build it.

Of course, that has a problem in that I do not know if I’ll ever get it done.

But, as I have others with the same drive, of which at least one is an FB, I am seriously considering building them as the demo ABBA set purchased by the CNW. And using the slightly all green modified Alco demo paint scheme used by the CNW for a bit of time, maybe up to two years or so. I did see an AB set at Appleton Junction shortly after they were purchased and then expected I’d be seeing more. I was probably around 10 – 11 when I saw them and did not possess a camera. Oh well.

Anyway, in my young mind I thought these were something the CNW would purchase several of and this was a new paint scheme. Turned out that sighting was a one and done for me.

With what I have on hand I can whip up 2 FA’s and 1 FB with the 8 wheel drive set up. I have enough parts to do another unit but I’ll have to locate another FB body.

Looks like you talked me into this project, Ray.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 7:32 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Ray,

I recently acquired a Lindsay FA, 8 wheel drive, never assembled with all the drive components and detail parts in their original packaging.

However, the basic shell was rotted away almost to dust.

I have other virgin shells so I now have a complete, untouched FA kit.

Question? Yeah, what do I do with it. Keep it, sell it or build it?

Sitting here scratching my head and getting dandruff all over my glasses.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2019 12:25 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27059	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 3/12/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

John,

I don't think you'll regret it, and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. The paint scheme you're thinking of using sounds like it's going to bring back lots of memories for you. Being brought up in the Northeast, I never had the opportunity to see the C&NW first-hand, but I always enjoyed (in photos) the green & yellow scheme they had. Best of luck with this project. Don't try rushing it just get it done; if you continue to put time into it when you have the chance it will get finished -- whether sooner or later. You'll then have something to really enjoy from then, on. In the meantime, enjoy the building of them.

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 11, 2019 10:56 pm
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Thanks Ray.

My first thought is to indeed build it.

Of course, that has a problem in that I do not know if I’ll ever get it done.

Anyway, in my young mind I thought these were something the CNW would purchase several of and this was a new paint scheme. Turned out that sighting was a one and done for me.

With what I have on hand I can whip up 2 FA’s and 1 FB with the 8 wheel drive set up. I have enough parts to do another unit but I’ll have to locate another FB body.

Looks like you talked me into this project, Ray.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 7:32 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Ray,

I recently acquired a Lindsay FA, 8 wheel drive, never assembled with all the drive components and detail parts in their original packaging.

However, the basic shell was rotted away almost to dust.

I have other virgin shells so I now have a complete, untouched FA kit.

Question? Yeah, what do I do with it. Keep it, sell it or build it?

Sitting here scratching my head and getting dandruff all over my glasses.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2019 12:25 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Lindsay Drives

Ralph V. Balfoort

Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27060	From: Van Campbell	Date: 3/13/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

Attachments :

John,

I found myself in a similar situation several years ago. I’d bought an FA/FB set several years ago with an intent of putting together a running pair. Alas, when I got the package I was not totally surprised to find that the FA shell was totally consumed by “zinc pest”. I pulled all the usable parts from the FA shell, and stored the project away. The FB shell is immaculate, the motor runs but will need a teardown and cleaning of course, and as far as I can tell, most of the parts that came with the kit are present, along with all the parts I scavenged from the FA. I doubt I’ll be able to find the time for this project anytime soon, so if it’s something you may be interested in, let me know.

Van B. Campbell

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27061	From: Dale Smith	Date: 3/13/2019
Subject: Fwd: Messages to Yahoo groups continue

Since the beginning of the month, we have had nearly 60 messages go to the Yahoo groups version of this group. Fortunately some of those have been CC'd to the groups.io group. My thanks also to those of you who have forwarded messages. For those of you reading this on the Yahoo group only, you are advised that this is a orphaned group with no active owner or moderator that has been moved to Groups.io. Because the owner is locked out of the Yahoo group, we cannot shut it down to posting as is done with most other transferred groups and post notices of the new group. If you are still interested in this subject, please join the "VintageHO@..." group on that platform. It is quite active and has moderators who can deal with problems.

To our members, I know it isn't as easy as it would seem to see where the message originates and you really have to look, but for the good of the group I ask you all to give it a try. Just look at the "TO" line of the header. If it says "VintageHO@yahoogroups.com" only with no CC to the groups.io group, please forward it to "VintageHO@..." and do the same CC if you respond. The best practice would be to change the "TO" address on your reply to "VintageHO@..." with a "CC" to "VintageHO@yahoogroups.com," but the simple CC will at least keep the message archive at groups.io complete. For members of both groups, this will result in duplicate messages, so just delete the one from the Yahoo group.

For those of you who use the groups.io website to post, you will never see the Yahoo messages, but that means you will be dependent on someone forwarding the Yahoo group messages. I certainly hope no one is using the Yahoo website to post. I am at a loss to figure out how this was no problem for many months but has now surfaced.

I got involved in the transfer to groups.io because I thought this was one of the most important train groups on Yahoogroups because of the great store of knowledge of the members. That is why I went to the effort of moving each individual photo and file to the new group. Keeping an accurate archive of the messages is important in preserving the knowledge shared by group members. If this back an forth use of both groups continues, our archive will have bits and pieces in two places, or worse yet some of it could be lost if Yahoogroups collapses. Of course if Yahoo groups collapses, this problem will be solved. I do have a copy of the message archive from the Yahoo groups and am working on a way to make it accessible. Because of the recent activity, I am continuing to backup the Yahoo database locally so even these current problem messages won't be lost.

Thanks for your patience and cooperation in this effort.

Dale Smith

Moderator - Groups.io group

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27062	From: J. L. Edwards	Date: 3/19/2019
Subject: Re: Vintage Lindsay Drives

John,

I think I have an excellent Lindsay FA shell if you want me to look and send pictures?

Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27063	From: rcjge	Date: 4/7/2019
Subject: For Sale

Hey Guys

Heading to NY State (Thornwood 10594) for Easter, so will be listing some stuff for sale.
Will add some group photos and a list for people to look at....
If interested, I'll bring with me, and ship from there. Usually by USPS Priority Flat rate...
Make an offer.
Thanks Guys.
Best,
Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27064	From: toptrain2100	Date: 9/22/2019
Subject: HObbyline HO trains.

At train show recently I've been finding some nice HObbyline trains. The best of which is a few passenger sets. First I'll post a list I made up of HObbyline sets. It is not complete, but I feel that i list most of them. I know the first train set started with #1 and i don't know how many there were. I do know it started in 1953 for that is when HObbyline started making and selling trains. Not with catalog information in 1955 and after set had 3 digit numbers. When HObbyline was selling off there sock in late 1957 and 1958 they came out with two sets that had 4 digits.

From what i have and what I've read on sites like HOseekers This is what i put together.

My list of HObbyline Train sets.

Set number, Set name, Listing what’s in it.

410 ‘The Commuter”. PRR H12-44 and one H.W. combine, two coaches.

411 “The Wall Street”, H12-44 diesel, one H.W. combine, and two Passenger coaches.

412 “The Shuttle Bug” NYC 0-4-0t, tank car, box car caboose.

415 “The Suburbanite” UP FM H12-44 diesel, HW combine, two coaches.

416”The Prospector” ATSF FM H12-44 diesel, Flat car with 2 wood loads, Box car, HObbyline Caboose.

417 “The Pacemaker” B&O FM H12-44 diesel, hopper car, Box car, Gondola, caboose

420 “The Wayfarer” PRR FM H12-44 diesel, gondola, flat car, box car, caboose

421 “The Whistle Stopper” C&O FM H12-44 diesel, Gondola tank car and HObbyline caboose’ loco included.

422 “The Yard Master” PRR 0-4-0 steam loco with hopper, tank car and caboose.

( There are two yardmaster sets, 440 is a 4 car set, this 422 a 3 car set.)

425 “The Hilltopper”. UP FM H12-44 diesel, Gondola flat and box car.

426 “The Hot Shot”. Twin FA-1 diesels PRR black, flat with load, tank car, box car, hopper car, caboose.

430 “The Train Maker”. PRR A5 0-4-0 steam loco. HW combine, and two coach.

431 “The Silver Meteor” Twin FA1 PRR,3 S.L. pass cars, two Pullman silver star and silver cloud, and observation Silver Meteor. Pullmans are stream lined with red stripe.

440 “The Yard Master”. PRR steam loco, Gondola, Box car, tank car, caboose.

(There are two, 422 is a 3 car set, this 440 a 4 car set.)

446 “The Ridgerunner”. Alco FA-1 PRR diesel, box car, tank car, flat car with load, hopper car, HObbyline caboose.

450 “The Metropolitan“, FA-1 twin, combine and three HW coaches. Locos included.

451 “Lake Cities Express”. Erie FA1 twin, H.W. one combine, two passenger coaches. green and gray.

455 “The Canyon Clipper”. UP FA1 twin H.W. one combine, three coaches.

456 “The Trail Blazer”, PRR FA1 twin, S.L. three Pullman, one Observation.

460 “The Growler”. UP twin FA-1’s, gondola, tank car, two box cars, UP caboose.

461 “ California Zephyr”. W.P. FA-1 twin. SL cars. 3 Pulman’s, Observation..

465 “The Mountaineer”. PRR twin FA-1’s, gondola, tank car, two box cars, UP caboose.

466 “The Frontiersman”, WP twin FA-1’s gondola, box, tank, flat with load, hopper, caboose.

467 ???????? no name found, Set is the same as 466 but is PRR.

2500 “The Rocky Mountain”, Union Pacific 0-4-0t saddle tank, box car, tank car, UP caboose

3500 “Allegheny”, PRR 0-4-0 yard bird, box, tank car, box car, hopper car, gondola car, flat car, PRR caboose.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27065	From: Raymond Wetzel	Date: 9/22/2019
Subject: Re: HObbyline HO trains.

Fairly comprehensive listing of Hobbyline sets. I can only add; 462 "Royal Blue," B&O FA-1 twin, H.W. one Combine, three Passenger Coaches. dark blue.

Corrections on the 451 "Lake Cites Express," Erie set; included three H.W. Passenger Coaches and the colors were dark and light green (the "gray" is actually Erie light green)

Ray Wetzel

-----Original Message-----
From: toptrain1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 22, 2019 10:16 am
Subject: [vintageHO] HObbyline HO trains.

From what i have and what I've read on sites like HOseekers This is what i put together.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27066	From: Dale Smith	Date: 9/23/2019
Subject: Re: HObbyline HO trains. ( this group is closed)

Just a reminder that this group has moved to groups.io and can't be shut down because of problems with the Yahoo platform. If you haven't joined the new group you can do so by going to https://groups.io/g/VintageHO and joining. For those of you who have joined the new group, this is just a reminder to those members of the old group who haven't joined the new group, and it is a sizeable number.

Dale Smith
Moderator

On 9/21/2019 12:50 PM, toptrain1@... [vintageHO] wrote:

At train show recently I've been finding some nice HObbyline trains. The best of which is a few passenger sets. First I'll post a list I made up of HObbyline sets. It is not complete, but I feel that i list most of them. I know the first train set started with #1 and i don't know how many there were. I do know it started in 1953 for that is when HObbyline started making and selling trains. Not with catalog information in 1955 and after set had 3 digit numbers. When HObbyline was selling off there sock in late 1957 and 1958 they came out with two sets that had 4 digits.

From what i have and what I've read on sites like HOseekers This is what i put together.

My list of HObbyline Train sets.

Set number, Set name, Listing what’s in it.

410 ‘The Commuter”. PRR H12-44 and one H.W. combine, two coaches.

411 “The Wall Street”, H12-44 diesel, one H.W. combine, and two Passenger coaches.

412 “The Shuttle Bug” NYC 0-4-0t, tank car, box car caboose.

415 “The Suburbanite” UP FM H12-44 diesel, HW combine, two coaches.

416”The Prospector” ATSF FM H12-44 diesel, Flat car with 2 wood loads, Box car, HObbyline Caboose.

417 “The Pacemaker” B&O FM H12-44 diesel, hopper car, Box car, Gondola, caboose

420 “The Wayfarer” PRR FM H12-44 diesel, gondola, flat car, box car, caboose

421 “The Whistle Stopper” C&O FM H12-44 diesel, Gondola tank car and HObbyline caboose’ loco included.

422 “The Yard Master” PRR 0-4-0 steam loco with hopper, tank car and caboose.

( There are two yardmaster sets, 440 is a 4 car set, this 422 a 3 car set.)

425 “The Hilltopper”. UP FM H12-44 diesel, Gondola flat and box car.

426 “The Hot Shot”. Twin FA-1 diesels PRR black, flat with load, tank car, box car, hopper car, caboose.

430 “The Train Maker”. PRR A5 0-4-0 steam loco. HW combine, and two coach.

431 “The Silver Meteor” Twin FA1 PRR,3 S.L. pass cars, two Pullman silver star and silver cloud, and observation Silver Meteor. Pullmans are stream lined with red stripe.

440 “The Yard Master”. PRR steam loco, Gondola, Box car, tank car, caboose.

(There are two, 422 is a 3 car set, this 440 a 4 car set.)

446 “The Ridgerunner”. Alco FA-1 PRR diesel, box car, tank car, flat car with load, hopper car, HObbyline caboose.

450 “The Metropolitan“, FA-1 twin, combine and three HW coaches. Locos included.

451 “Lake Cities Express”. Erie FA1 twin, H.W. one combine, two passenger coaches. green and gray.

455 “The Canyon Clipper”. UP FA1 twin H.W. one combine, three coaches.

456 “The Trail Blazer”, PRR FA1 twin, S.L. three Pullman, one Observation.

460 “The Growler”. UP twin FA-1’s, gondola, tank car, two box cars, UP caboose.

461 “ California Zephyr”. W.P. FA-1 twin. SL cars. 3 Pulman’s, Observation..

465 “The Mountaineer”. PRR twin FA-1’s, gondola, tank car, two box cars, UP caboose.

466 “The Frontiersman”, WP twin FA-1’s gondola, box, tank, flat with load, hopper, caboose.

467 ???????? no name found, Set is the same as 466 but is PRR.

2500 “The Rocky Mountain”, Union Pacific 0-4-0t saddle tank, box car, tank car, UP caboose

3500 “Allegheny”, PRR 0-4-0 yard bird, box, tank car, box car, hopper car, gondola car, flat car, PRR caboose.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27067	From: Dale Smith	Date: 9/25/2019
Subject: New members

Just a note to all the members. We got 6 new members in the last day,
presumably because of that Yahoo Groups post. They must have thought
the Yahoo group had gone quiet for the last year or more, but glad to
have these old members back.

I am cross posting this to Yahoo Groups too, so groups.io members will
get two copies. If you only get one copy of this message, it is
probably from Yahoo, so please go to groups.io and join the very active
and informative group there, vintageho@... . All the files and
photos from Yahoo are there.

Dale Smith

Moderator

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27068	From: toptrain2100	Date: 10/15/2019
Subject: Re: Another 'mystery' car

This sounds like a International tank of which I have 1 tho wood dow tank centers were common way back when in the post was years of the 1940's and even early 50's. Silver streak tank were like that with printed paper sides and cast ebd pieces also. Somewhere i have a strombeck tank car. Mine is lettered for the Hercules Powder Co. they even used wood dowela shaping the top and bottom ,making them into domes for the tank.

frank

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27069	From: toptrain2100	Date: 10/15/2019
Subject: Re: Athearn rubber band drive

They were not rubber bands for they didn't stretch. They were drive belts made to stretch only slightly to aid in griping the pulleys. Drive belts outlasted bubberbands. I use to use ruberbands as drive belts but they didn't last very long, dating out and cracking.

frank

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27070	From: David J. Starr	Date: 10/15/2019
Subject: Re: Athearn rubber band drive

I have been using Goody hair elastics which I get at the drug store. Comes in batches of 250 in a plastic pack. Ouchless it says on the package. I learned about them somewhere, I forget just where, on the 'Net. I put them into an Athearn Buddliner and it runs well. They have lasted at least six months now.

David J

David J. Starr

https://www.amazon.com/Goody-Womens-Ouchless-Polyband-Elastics/dp/B005CSYTCU/ref=sr_1_20_sspa?crid=29B76OP2P6GUT&keywords=goody+hair+elastics&qid=1571184181&sprefix=goody+hair%2Caps%2C242&sr=8-20-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExTVJPSzBEOUtQN1ZLJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjY2MjAyMVpCT0xBOUUzRk9CRiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUExMDI0MDg2MkNQSkhPQ003RUoxTiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX210ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

On 10/15/2019 9:09 AM, toptrain1@... [vintageHO] wrote:

They were not rubber bands for they didn't stretch. They were drive belts made to stretch only slightly to aid in griping the pulleys. Drive belts outlasted bubberbands. I use to use ruberbands as drive belts but they didn't last very long, dating out and cracking.
frank

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27071	From: Charles Kinzer	Date: 10/15/2019
Subject: Re: Athearn rubber band drive

Looking at Amazon, there are a LOT of “Goody Hair Elastics”.

Is it this one (250 count “for fine hair”)?

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: 'David J. Starr' dstarrboston@... [vintageHO]
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 12:04 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn rubber band drive

David J. Starr

On 10/15/2019 9:09 AM, toptrain1@... [vintageHO] wrote:

They were not rubber bands for they didn't stretch. They were drive belts made to stretch only slightly to aid in griping the pulleys. Drive belts outlasted bubberbands. I use to use ruberbands as drive belts but they didn't last very long, dating out and cracking.
frank

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27072	From: Dale Smith	Date: 10/15/2019
Subject: Fwd: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn rubber band drive

We got over on Yahoo again. Lets move this discussion over to the the groups.io site. I will copy the other three messages to the new group. If you are on both groups, you will get second copies of these messages.

Dale

On 10/15/2019 6:09 AM, toptrain1@... [vintageHO] wrote:

They were not rubber bands for they didn't stretch. They were drive belts made to stretch only slightly to aid in griping the pulleys. Drive belts outlasted bubberbands. I use to use ruberbands as drive belts but they didn't last very long, dating out and cracking.

frank

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27073	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/16/2019
Subject: Re: Athearn rubber band drive

Attachments :

Not to worry about using the old Yahoo site as Yahoo is discontinuing accepting any new messages on 10/30/2019.

Announcement was made today, well, Tuesday really.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 12:19 AM
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn rubber band drive

Dale

On 10/15/2019 6:09 AM, toptrain1@... [vintageHO] wrote:

They were not rubber bands for they didn't stretch. They were drive belts made to stretch only slightly to aid in griping the pulleys. Drive belts outlasted bubberbands. I use to use ruberbands as drive belts but they didn't last very long, dating out and cracking.
frank

Virus-free. www.avg.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 27074	From: David J. Starr	Date: 10/16/2019
Subject: Re: Athearn rubber band drive

The Goody hair elastics I got were black. Came in a single plastic pack of 250. It was the only one in the drug store. Goody doesn't bother to print a stock number or model number on the package. The package did not say "For fine hair" I'm thinking any hair elastic of the right size ought to work.

David J

David J. Starr