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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23666	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/11/2015
Subject: Re: Model car hunting aid.

I know that email curse you see........

A lot of the time it comes from someone writing in or replying from Yahoo-mail in that online editor. You'll note how it seems to appear a lot of times only after someone joins the thread with that address. It sometimes comes from other sources, but rarely. Yahoo mail when written on-line is consistent at doing it.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 11, 2015, at 6:28 PM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Further:
This is part of what I saw yesterday. Then consider that it was broken up and double spaced.
Here is the condensed part:
Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23667	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/11/2015
Subject: Re: Model car hunting aid.

Well, you know, it takes a while to get over the shock sometimes.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 11, 2015, at 6:28 PM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hey Mike,
From this last post of yours, it sounds as though you have picked yourself up by your drivers; your tone definitely improved as you continued posting.

..............

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23668	From: corlissbs	Date: 1/11/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

Lets face the facts. Our hobby is an old man's hobby.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23669	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/11/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

John.....

We better not do any more talking about politics in this list.

I can email you a ton of documentation that will burst your bubbles on what was the cause and who repeatedly tried to prevent it.

You are deeply invested in multiple lies and diversionary excuses that were told to you. We can continue this elsewhere if you'd like.

Beware the man of one book - St. Thomas Aquinas

As to lost youthful hobbyists. I'll insist that it continues through to those past their teen years that are no longer able to have a hobby.

Even among the youthful computer users, there is a major split between those that treat it as just an interactive TV and those that will create and mod their games and delve into computer graphics or computer dark-room type of activity with the family photos.

Think of all of the people you have encountered that have photos in their digital camera or smart-phone and have no idea of how to get them out. I was recently shocked to find out that my younger sister is one of those.

Think also of the creative sorts that use their computer to create the huge range of additional game objects for the various train simulators, or The Sims games, or the hundreds of thousands of available card models that are on-line and exist to make real world scale models from. Every type of Sim game out there has tens of thousands of player created complex objects, made with programs other than the game itself.

One very nice example is the complete Milwaukee Road Hiawatha train with every car having full interiors in high detail . Technically, its convertible to a real-world operating scale model if you wish to 3d print, cnc-mill, laser-cut, or just bench-build with hand tools.

Computer users do include Builders and Creators that use the computer as their workshop tool.

Remember all of the VCR's that were out there flashing '12:00' because their owners found it too difficult to change the time on them ??? That's the same slice of the population that is playing with a game-machine instead of actually doing things with a computer.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 11, 2015, at 6:33 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Kids are playing with computers and video games because they want to. We are not talking about twenty or thirty-something’s that live at home because they can’t afford to live elsewhere. We are talking kids, mainly 10 – 18 year olds who seem to have the money to get all the electronics they want.

Yes this shop has problems with the economy that went sour on the Republican watch do to verily lax banking, mortgage and investment regulations. The recovery has been about the best it could be in today’s world economy. But that is not the whole picture. The economy does not make the ages of hobbyists rise which is the largest part of the situation. If the oldsters were being replaced by younger people this would not be so severe.

I do agree that it is far more dangerous for the young to spend as much unsupervised time outdoors but that should actually increase the numbers of hobbyists if they didn’t have their noses stuffed in their notebooks.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2015 5:58 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Sad News

Yup GN&H is going for certain........

I was there today and the way the shelves were becoming bare is another way of confirming it.

I'm not sure we can blame the youth for not building things these days. When you recall how much of the younger population is being forced to remain at home [jobless] instead of getting their own places, you can better understand why Train layouts and kit builders of all sorts are limited to the amount of space they have in their bedrooms until they are nearly 35 years old for a lot of today's folks if they are a non-welfare family.

Then there's the huge portion of the youth that have only a single parent family and Mom just isn't as likely to encourage the development of skills as a father would, nor does Mom have any sort of those constructive skills to help the kids grow up with. Mom certainly won't have a little wood shop, nor will be repairing the family car from time to time. That's the sort of things only fathers and other family senior-males will do.

I'll not go deeper into that line of thought except to point out that it's not just the oft repeated meme of todays kids playing video games instead of wanting to make stuff. That's the look on the surface and not the deeper cause.

Ultimately, this shop has declared it has serious problems with an economy that has worsened over the last eight years of constantly declining sales. We still are not recovering from the banking/real-estate collapse of years ago. The last time this happened with Carter, we got out of it and back to a strong economy in 18-months. This time the Feds have done almost everything that was the opposite of making that recovery and having done just the opposite in about every possible way, there has been no true recovery, now eight years later. We haven't even reached the level of partial recovery we had six-months into the last major recovery........... eight years later.

GN&H held on as long as they could..........

They certainly will be missed!

Brad......... More of today's kids than those of our days are afraid to play outside. In too much of our cities its simply unsafe to be alone or even in a very small group outside. Its a major reason why a lot of kids don't play outside like they used to.

No-one will manage to convince them to play outside as long as they are afraid to some degree. These days, the once mythical Bogie-Man out to get you is real and numerous.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Posted by: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23670	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/11/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

Only as most of us practice it.........

It can get to be boring if you don't occasionally seek an new horizon in it.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 11, 2015, at 6:48 PM, corlissbs wrote:

>
>
> Lets face the facts. Our hobby is an old man's hobby.
>
> Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23671	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/11/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

Mike.

Hate to tell but Brad, you and myself ARE old men.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2015 7:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Sad News

Only as most of us practice it.........

It can get to be boring if you don't occasionally seek an new horizon in it.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 11, 2015, at 6:48 PM, corlissbs wrote:

>
>
> Lets face the facts. Our hobby is an old man's hobby.
>
> Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23672	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/11/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

I'm well seasoned at 62.

When I'm 75, I'll be old !

When I'm 85 I'll be doing about normally per my family track record.

And I'll have one hell of a wearable super-computer running holographic train sims as well.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 11, 2015, at 9:50 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> Mike.
>
> Hate to tell but Brad, you and myself ARE old men.
>
> John Hagen
>
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2015 7:42 PM
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Sad News
>
>
> Only as most of us practice it.........
>
> It can get to be boring if you don't occasionally seek an new horizon in it.
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi
>
> On Jan 11, 2015, at 6:48 PM, corlissbs wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Lets face the facts. Our hobby is an old man's hobby.
> >
> > Brad
>
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23673	From: anypaddler	Date: 1/12/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

Brad Smith wrote:

< I bought Athearn yellow box kits as a kid when a flat car cost .95 cents
and a boxcar was $1.50. That was in 1961. Ok, inflation has taken place,
but today's assembled boxcar can cost up to $45.00

-----------------------------------

I used an inflation calculator and that buck-and-a-half kit would now sell for about 12 dollars. That's pretty reasonable, and even better if your LHS discounts. I have bought a few R-T-R cars, but I still pick up some of the good older kits at train shows.

Most of what I own is run on a modular HO layout at train shows where all the kids and parents are interested in is counting the number of cars (including locomotive [units] and caboose) in the trains. The fact that I'm running a shortened version of a properly blocked New York Central freight eastbound out of Buffalo in the 1950's means nothing to them. Wire handrails and full brake rigging are for rivet counters at NMRA contests.

Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23674	From: Doug Harris	Date: 1/12/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

On 12/01/15 17:49, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I'm well seasoned at 62.
>
> When I'm 75, I'll be old !
>
> When I'm 85 I'll be doing about normally per my family track record.
>
> And I'll have one hell of a wearable super-computer running holographic train sims as well.
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi
>
> On Jan 11, 2015, at 9:50 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mike.
>>
>> Hate to tell but Brad, you and myself ARE old men.
>>
>> John Hagen

I have ta tell ya John and Mike - I'm 76, and old, and the body creaks a
bit, but the brain still feels about 35, and I can bitch with the best..

And I'm just starting building what may well be my last three layouts..
(There, got trains in..)

:-))> ½ ø °■ ≈ (Grinning bearded man (now 76) with half a bowel, no
prostate, bifocals, a bald patch, a titanium hip joint and Fat Finger
Disease) Otherwise, I'm in pretty good shape, thanks! My opposable
thumbs still work, but my achilles tendon is giving me hell..

--
Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23675	From: slsf4524	Date: 1/12/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

The modern equivalent to the old Athearn plastic kits might be Accurail kits. Comparing a plastic kit to a current assembled freight car is not really a fair comparison. An Accurail box car kit retails for $16.00 to $17.00 and from a discount (from a brick and mortar) store they can be had for $13.00...pretty close to the inflation adjusted $12.00 Athearn kit.

Since a large amount of old Athearn, MDC, Varney kits are availible on the second hand market anyone should be able to fill up their train room with vintage cars of their choice.

John Sanders

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23676	From: oklacnw	Date: 1/12/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

All you kids out there, suck it up, here's one old man who still "plays" with trains. I have a Sunshine Models kit I'm working on now, an old AHM stock car I'm updating with KD's & Athearn trucks, and several more in the "waiting" room- oh, and I'm 81 yrs young (I hope!).
--
Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23677	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/12/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

Well,

After spending two years in my teens nearly dying from then unrecognized Crohnes, getting to this age of 63 is a delightful miracle. After the surgery to remove three feet of deadly green guts, I spent six-weeks in the hospital and didn't register that all of my relatives were stopping by, while thinking I wasn't going to make it out of there. My attitude was quite simply that it was something I have to get through.

More recently I've found that I had developing cataracts at the right point of time and it's almost easy to get 'new' eyes. Its strange when you go through being nearly blind in one eye for about a year and the other gradually drifts into the same condition. Bad eyes sort of run in the family and given enough time the reasons gel on you.

Now to get the second eye fixed before it is too much of a nuisance. I look on it as going to 20-20 vision again with about three weeks off of work. Its a bit strange going from near-sighted to slightly far-sighted. But its still a major improvement in vision.

I don't mind adding on the years as long as I'm repairable. Every year since age 16 has been a blessed miracle by itself.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 12, 2015, at 5:51 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> On 12/01/15 17:49, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>> I'm well seasoned at 62.
>>
>> When I'm 75, I'll be old !
>>
>> When I'm 85 I'll be doing about normally per my family track record.
>>
>> And I'll have one hell of a wearable super-computer running holographic train sims as well.
>>
>> Best to ya,
>> Mike Bauers
>> Milwaukee, Wi
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2015, at 9:50 PM, 'John Hagen' wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike.
>>>
>>> Hate to tell but Brad, you and myself ARE old men.
>>>
>>> John Hagen
>
> I have ta tell ya John and Mike - I'm 76, and old, and the body creaks a
> bit, but the brain still feels about 35, and I can bitch with the best..
>
> And I'm just starting building what may well be my last three layouts..
> (There, got trains in..)
>
> :-))> ½ ø °■ ≈ (Grinning bearded man (now 76) with half a bowel, no
> prostate, bifocals, a bald patch, a titanium hip joint and Fat Finger
> Disease) Otherwise, I'm in pretty good shape, thanks! My opposable
> thumbs still work, but my achilles tendon is giving me hell..
>
> --
> Doug Harris
> Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23678	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/12/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

On 1/12/2015 3:50 PM, slsf4524@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> The modern equivalent to the old Athearn plastic kits might be Accurail
> kits. Comparing a plastic kit to a current assembled freight car is not
> really a fair comparison. An Accurail box car kit retails for $16.00 to
> $17.00 and from a discount (from a brick and mortar) store they can be
> had for $13.00...pretty close to the inflation adjusted $12.00 Athearn kit.

If you check Accurail's web site from time to time you'll find kits
on sale for direct order. Another nice thing they do is offer decal
renumbering sets so you can change reporting marks. I just looked and
don't see anything on sale ATM.

--

Rick Jones

"The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to
face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine
inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was
brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other
of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
-Thomas Paine, American Founding Father

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23679	From: Dave Audley	Date: 1/13/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

I love the Accurail kits! Just 'cause I love building things! Right now, I am building 4 of

Westerfield's new NAR stock car kits! Build, build, build!

I have also re-detail 2 of the new Walthers snowplows to match CN & CP prototyps! Yes,

I know - CPR didn't own any Russell plows but this is the only game in town until

True Lines Trains brings out the right CPR snow plow! The CPR plow has the new

Tsunami Sound Car decoder and another is waiting to go into the CN plow! I also have

an un-dec model that will be painted along with the stock cars for the NAR as they had

1 Russell plow!

This what winter does, keeping me in the basement building models and having a blast!

Dave Audley

On Monday, January 12, 2015 2:50 PM, "slsf4524@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23680	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/13/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

Ralph,

You are so right!

Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23681	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/13/2015
Subject: Re: Sad News

Gee, you are old, Doug.

I can supply some of those parts you’re missing. I still have a prostrate, I can provide a hair transplant, I have natural hip joints, I have 2 good Achilles tendons.

On the other hand, maybe since you are running down hill, you could donate nerves to me.

I’m 76 1/2 .

Prost!

Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23682	From: Keith Douglass	Date: 1/13/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

Speaking of prices, I was recently reading the May, 1954 Model Railroader. In it was an ad from Model Wood Lumber Company announcing : "...five HO cars you can build for only $2.65." [that's for ALL FIVE!] included are parts for an express reefer, high side gondola, boom car, box car, and outside braced bay window caboose. "Kit has scribed sides; door and end stock; roof, floor, and end stock, center sills, fascia, roof ribs, door slides, bracing, bolsters, ladder stock, grab irons, tins, wire, steps and brake wheels. No trucks or couplers." The accompanying photo shows some pretty nice looking models.

I would love to have had that set of kits, but they were a little pricey for me then.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23683	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/13/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

Looks like it would be a dream kit today...

attached...

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 13, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Keith Douglass wrote:

Speaking of prices, I was recently reading the May, 1954 Model Railroader. In it was an ad from Model Wood Lumber Company announcing : "...five HO cars you can build for only $2.65." [that's for ALL FIVE!] included are parts for an express reefer, high side gondola, boom car, box car, and outside braced bay window caboose. "Kit has scribed sides; door and end stock; roof, floor, and end stock, center sills, fascia, roof ribs, door slides, bracing, bolsters, ladder stock, grab irons, tins, wire, steps and brake wheels. No trucks or couplers." The accompanying photo shows some pretty nice looking models.
I would love to have had that set of kits, but they were a little pricey for me then.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23684	From: Dave Robison	Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

I just got an old Mantua 2-6-0 Mogul project which will need, among other things, trucks for the tender. It looks like the original Mantua trucks were replaced at some time with "better" ones, which have since come to pieces — and pieces are all I have — but I was intrigued to see the replacement trucks are sprung leaf-spring-type arch bar trucks. I believe the arch bar style of truck is correct for what should be under this tender (or at least that seems to be what Mantua supplied), and that leaf-type springs are right for the tender (would that be the same for a caboose?), but I'd never before seen HO trucks with working leaf springs! The springs seem to be some sort of bronze material or similar, in diecast sideframes and bolsters; unfortunately no wheelsets, but I'm guessing they must have had at least one brass wheel per set to act as electrical pickup. Anyone have any idea who made these trucks?

Thanks! Dave

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23685	From: jbark76	Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

They sound like Silver Streak caboose trucks.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23686	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

On 1/15/2015 11:37 PM, Dave Robison dave@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I just got an old Mantua 2-6-0 Mogul project which will need, among
> other things, trucks for the tender. It looks like the original
> Mantua trucks were replaced at some time with "better" ones, which
> have since come to pieces — and pieces are all I have — but I was
> intrigued to see the replacement trucks are sprung leaf-spring-type
> arch bar trucks. I believe the arch bar style of truck is correct for
> what should be under this tender (or at least that seems to be what
> Mantua supplied), and that leaf-type springs are right for the tender
> (would that be the same for a caboose?), but I'd never before seen HO
> trucks with working leaf springs! The springs seem to be some sort of
> bronze material or similar, in diecast sideframes and bolsters;
> unfortunately no wheelsets, but I'm guessing they must have had at
> least one brass wheel per set to act as electrical pickup. Anyone
> have any idea who made these trucks?

I bought some working leaf spring trucks one time to put under a
caboose. I believe they were made by Walthers. Don't know if they're
still available.

--

Rick Jones

"Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them;
rarely, if ever, do they forgive them."
-Oscar Wilde

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23687	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Back in the 1950s and 1960s (at least) HO scale
sprung trucks were quite common. Several
manufacturers made them (Central Valley made some
of the best). You could get both coil and leaf
type trucks and aftermarket springs of both
types. The leaf springs were frequently used on a
waycar (caboose to non ATSF, DSP&P, and CB&Q modelers).

Willard

At 12:37 AM 1/16/2015, you wrote:

>I just got an old Mantua 2-6-0 Mogul project
>which will need, among other things, trucks for
>the tender. It looks like the original Mantua
>trucks were replaced at some time with "better"
>ones, which have since come to pieces and
>pieces are all I have but I was intrigued to
>see th the replacement trucks are sprung
>leaf-spring-type arch bar trucks. I believe the
>arch bar style of truck is correct for what
>should be under this tender (or at least that
>seems to be what Mantua supplied), and that
>leaf-type springs are right for the tender
>(would that be the same for a caboose?), but I'd
>never before seen HO trucks with working leaf
>springs! The springs seem to be some sort of
>bronze material or similar, in diecast
>sideframes and bolsters; unfortunately no
>wheelsets, but I'm guessing they must have had
>at least one brass wheel per set to act as
>electrical pickup. Anyone have any idea who made these trucks?
>
>
>Thanks! Dave
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>Posted by: Dave Robison <dave@...>
>------------------------------------
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23688	From: Model RailRoad Warehouse	Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

For many years Walthers supplied leaf springs [like you describe] for replacement of coil springs in trucks. Thus most any sprung trucks of the 50-70s era MIGHT be what your tender had.

Merle Rice

Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
.
Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23689	From: jerrygart5	Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

The ones I was familiar with, you just took anyone's sprung metal trucks (Athearn, Central Valley, etc) and removed the coil springs, and replaced them with the leaf springs, The leaf springs came in a cello bag, by the dozen (sorry, I do not recall the vendor), and had small holes in the ends; you slipped the leafs onto the stubs that retained the coil springs, and had caboose or tender trucks ready to roll. The beauty of it was you could also take more modern trucks (Andrews, etc.) and do the same, and have nice caboose trucks for your 1930's vintage caboose or tender. JerryGarteiser

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23690	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

They're listed in the older (1979, in this instance) Walthers catalogs in the Parts section, under Walthers (as Walthers being the vendor). Description and part number is -- Leaf Springs 1 doz/pkg 946-3005(S) @ 90 cents. Not quite sure what's meant as "more modern trucks," as Andrews trucks were outlawed for interchange in 1958, but if the 1930's caboose is being compared to, then these style trucks are definitely modern. Andrews trucks had started to be used at the turn of the last century (19th to 20th) and were used to replace the Arch Bar trucks which were outlawed (for interchange) at the end of 1939 and used some of the Arch Bar components (journal boxes, etc.) at that time.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/16/2015 12:23:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The ones I was familiar with, you just took anyone's sprung metal trucks (Athearn, Central Valley, etc) and removed the coil springs, and replaced them with the leaf springs, The leaf springs came in a cello bag, by the dozen (sorry, I do not recall the vendor), and had small holes in the ends; you slipped the leafs onto the stubs that retained the coil springs, and had caboose or tender trucks ready to roll. The beauty of it was you could also take more modern trucks (Andrews, etc.) and do the same, and have nice caboose trucks for your 1930's vintage caboose or tender. JerryGarteiser

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23691	From: Keith Douglass	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

PSC lists part # 31968, "D&RGW caboose leaf springs, brass 12pkg".

Someone probably replaced the coil springs with these. I have what is either these or something similar in some of my trucks. They're too stiff to actually perform any springing function, but they look cool. Mine also look more like phosphor bronze than brass.

Now, can someone tell me why leaf springs are used to provide a softer ride than coil springs on tenders and cabooses, but on cars and trucks, coil springs are used to provide a softer ride??

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23692	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Leaf Spring trucks were offered by Kemtron and Silver Streak for sure, I think Central Valley. Kemtron (now Precision Scale) and Silverstreak bit sold the springs loose also

Don

On 1/16/2015 6:43 AM, Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] wrote:

On 1/15/2015 11:37 PM, Dave Robison dave@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I just got an old Mantua 2-6-0 Mogul project which will need, among
> other things, trucks for the tender. It looks like the original
> Mantua trucks were replaced at some time with "better" ones, which
> have since come to pieces — and pieces are all I have — but I was
> intrigued to see the replacement trucks are sprung leaf-spring-type
> arch bar trucks. I believe the arch bar style of truck is correct for
> what should be under this tender (or at least that seems to be what
> Mantua supplied), and that leaf-type springs are right for the tender
> (would that be the same for a caboose?), but I'd never before seen HO
> trucks with working leaf springs! The springs seem to be some sort of
> bronze material or similar, in diecast sideframes and bolsters;
> unfortunately no wheelsets, but I'm guessing they must have had at
> least one brass wheel per set to act as electrical pickup. Anyone
> have any idea who made these trucks?

I bought some working leaf spring trucks one time to put under a
caboose. I believe they were made by Walthers. Don't know if they're
still available.

--

Rick Jones

"Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them;
rarely, if ever, do they forgive them."
-Oscar Wilde

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23693	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Yes, also found in Walthers' catalogs are -- Kemtron Working Leaf Spring 390-3 pkg(4) @ 90 cents. Kadee offered packages of truck springs of several types, although I'm only familiar with their coil springs. Likely they offered leaf springs too. Might be some on eBay.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/17/2015 4:46:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Leaf Spring trucks were offered by Kemtron and Silver Streak for sure, I think Central Valley. Kemtron (now Precision Scale) and Silverstreak bit sold the springs loose also

Don

On 1/16/2015 6:43 AM, Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] wrote:

On 1/15/2015 11:37 PM, Dave Robison dave@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I just got an old Mantua 2-6-0 Mogul project which will need, among
> other things, trucks for the tender. It looks like the original
> Mantua trucks were replaced at some time with "better" ones, which
> have since come to pieces — and pieces are all I have — but I was
> intrigued to see the replacement trucks are sprung leaf-spring-type
> arch bar trucks. I believe the arch bar style of truck is correct for
> what should be under this tender (or at least that seems to be what
> Mantua supplied), and that leaf-type springs are right for the tender
> (would that be the same for a caboose?), but I'd never before seen HO
> trucks with working leaf springs! The springs seem to be some sort of
> bronze material or similar, in diecast sideframes and bolsters;
> unfortunately no wheelsets, but I'm guessing they must have had at
> least one brass wheel per set to act as electrical pickup. Anyone
> have any idea who made these trucks?

I bought some working leaf spring trucks one time to put under a
caboose. I believe they were made by Walthers. Don't know if they're
still available.

--

Rick Jones

"Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them;
rarely, if ever, do they forgive them."
-Oscar Wilde

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23694	From: willard seehorn	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

I was told years ago that the leaf springs on a caboose provided a smoother ride than coil springs. As to a tender? I'd guess giving the fireman a steady/smoother ride as he fed the engine might have some value.

Willard

-----Original Message-----
From: "Keith Douglass keith.douglass@... [vintageHO]"
Sent: Jan 16, 2015 6:29 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

PSC lists part # 31968, "D&RGW caboose leaf springs, brass 12pkg".
Someone probably replaced the coil springs with these. I have what is either these or something similar in some of my trucks. They're too stiff to actually perform any springing function, but they look cool. Mine also look more like phosphor bronze than brass.
Now, can someone tell me why leaf springs are used to provide a softer ride than coil springs on tenders and cabooses, but on cars and trucks, coil springs are used to provide a softer ride??

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23695	From: Harry Butler	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Precision Scale may still offer the leaf springs separately, and the leaf spring trucks are listed in its P.I.A. catalog, which I downloaded from the company website recently.

Harry

From: "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 4:45 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

On 1/15/2015 11:37 PM, Dave Robison dave@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I just got an old Mantua 2-6-0 Mogul project which will need, among
> other things, trucks for the tender. It looks like the original
> Mantua trucks were replaced at some time with "better" ones, which
> have since come to pieces — and pieces are all I have — but I was
> intrigued to see the replacement trucks are sprung leaf-spring-type
> arch bar trucks. I believe the arch bar style of truck is correct for
> what should be under this tender (or at least that seems to be what
> Mantua supplied), and that leaf-type springs are right for the tender
> (would that be the same for a caboose?), but I'd never before seen HO
> trucks with working leaf springs! The springs seem to be some sort of
> bronze material or similar, in diecast sideframes and bolsters;
> unfortunately no wheelsets, but I'm guessing they must have had at
> least one brass wheel per set to act as electrical pickup. Anyone
> have any idea who made these trucks?

I bought some working leaf spring trucks one time to put under a
caboose. I believe they were made by Walthers. Don't know if they're
still available.

--

Rick Jones

"Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them;
rarely, if ever, do they forgive them."
-Oscar Wilde

-- 
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23696	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Keith,

There is a whole lot more involved with ride than the type of spring used. On a tender I’d venture to say the use of leaf springs was more for their load carrying ability than a smooth ride. You take a big cistern with a cast iron base, steels walls and ceiling and fill that sucker with water and they get a tad heavy. I do think that considering the space available for springs leafs could carry more weight. At least with the metallurgy available back in the day. Steam locos pretty much all used leafs and many of the early diesels did too.

For a Caboose I’m thinking it was more of ride control issue. Leafs are somewhat self controlled due to the friction between the leaves where as coils and be very bouncy. For freight the weight can negate the bounce to an extant but for a lightly weighted load, using lighter duty coils it could be very much like driving a car when the shock absorbers are totally worn out. We’ve all seen cars rolling down the roadway that are continually heaving and hoeing long after transversing a bump in the road. It’s the rate of rebound or “jounce”.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 5:30 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

PSC lists part # 31968, "D&RGW caboose leaf springs, brass 12pkg".

Now, can someone tell me why leaf springs are used to provide a softer ride than coil springs on tenders and cabooses, but on cars and trucks, coil springs are used to provide a softer ride??

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23697	From: trainliker	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Yes. Leaf springs definitely used on locomotive tenders for load carrying. A leaf spring can typically carry more load with less spring deflection than coil springs. For cabooses, definitely for ride quality. Obviously, the size of the leafs are different for the two application as it seems paradoxical for the same spring type to be best for a very heavy and very light load.

Chuck Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎January‎ ‎17‎, ‎2015 ‎7‎:‎42‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Keith,

John Hagen

PSC lists part # 31968, "D&RGW caboose leaf springs, brass 12pkg".

Now, can someone tell me why leaf springs are used to provide a softer ride than coil springs on tenders and cabooses, but on cars and trucks, coil springs are used to provide a softer ride??

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23698	From: david_helber	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation Calculator, that $2.65 is the approximate equivalent of $23 today.

Would $23 get you enough scribed sheet, stripwood, small angle stock and wire today to build 5 car bodies? I wonder.

-- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23699	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

However.......

Replace that bare scribed siding with laser-cut, [or craft-cutter cut], photo-real high-grade artists card-stock and you'll be well under that $23.

An even larger set of 1880's passenger train, freight train, station, water-tank, and other station buildings is available from Dover Publishing as a card-stock book, uncut, at about $9. [S-scale]

http://store.doverpublications.com/0486253244.html

Ever think about cutting out and forming a classic 4-4-0, complete with forming the ornate domes and a wood-burners stack? They even teach you a great way of making a clerestory roof.

Well, it used to be $9, now $12.......... Still not too bad !

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 17, 2015, at 7:06 PM, dnhelber wrote:

>
>
> According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation Calculator, that $2.65 is the approximate equivalent of $23 today.
>
> Would $23 get you enough scribed sheet, stripwood, small angle stock and wire today to build 5 car bodies? I wonder.
>
> -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23700	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

Hi David,

I highly doubt that you could build 5 cars for $23.00. I scratch build 34
wood box cars and the whole car costs me between $30 and $40 and that
included trucks and couplers. I think the wood costs about $8 to $10
each.

Joel Holmes

> According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation Calculator
> http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl, that $2.65 is the approximate
> equivalent of $23 today.
>
> Would $23 get you enough scribed sheet, stripwood, small angle stock and
> wire today to build 5 car bodies? I wonder.
>
> -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23701	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

On 1/17/2015 7:06 PM, dnhelber@... [vintageHO] wrote:

>
>
> According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation Calculator
> <http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl>, that $2.65 is the approximate
> equivalent of $23 today.
>
> Would $23 get you enough scribed sheet, stripwood, small angle stock and
> wire today to build 5 car bodies? I wonder.

According to that calculator an MR Dollar Model from 1963 would now
be a $7.74 model. Not sure if I can buy the necessary stripwood and
detail parts today for that price to build one of those old things.

--

Rick Jones

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify
and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Paine, American Founding Father

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23702	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

This made me look in the MR archive at some of those articles.

Price exactly the materials used in the articles, and you'll find you will be about there.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 17, 2015, at 9:00 PM, Rick Jones wrote:

> On 1/17/2015 7:06 PM, dnhelber@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>>
>>
>> According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation Calculator
>> <http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl>, that $2.65 is the approximate
>> equivalent of $23 today.
>>
>> Would $23 get you enough scribed sheet, stripwood, small angle stock and
>> wire today to build 5 car bodies? I wonder.
>
> According to that calculator an MR Dollar Model from 1963 would now
> be a $7.74 model. Not sure if I can buy the necessary stripwood and
> detail parts today for that price to build one of those old things.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23703	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

So then, by this we should jump on any Pacific HO/Silver Streak, Ambroid, Quality Craft, Northeastern Scale Models, Main Line Models, Binkley, Laconia, Scotia Scale Models, Suncoast Models, Lehigh Models, Canadian Railway Models, George Taylor, Juneco, Central Valley, Camino Scale Models, Con-Cor Models, Olympic Cascadian, A-C/L-W, Ideal, Megow, Comet, Marker Lights, Wabash Valley (Quick Kits) and similar material Red Ball, La Belle or even the Ye Olde Huff-N -Puff R.R. knock-offs at a $40 price. I left out a few as to not appear redundant < g >.

It's too bad that not everyone's salaries always increase along the same lines as the Bureau of Labor Statistics figures do, or the annual increases in Social Security to keep up with the rate of inflation. Why is it that when selling these same items on eBay, that it's often like pulling teeth to get 1/2 this amount for these kits? And as for offering these kits for sale outright on the various Yahoo swap & sell groups at a quarter of this price most often brings little to no response?

Somehow, I find shelling out this kind of money for a wood kit is hard to take and you'd never get me to part with $40 for any one of these manufacturers' rolling stock pieces as I can only see it as a rip off at this price. Might be I'm just behind times, but as for today's prices on similar current models, I feel this is one reason why the hobby is not attracting younger modelers.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/17/2015 9:08:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi David,

I highly doubt that you could build 5 cars for $23.00. I scratch build 34
wood box cars and the whole car costs me between $30 and $40 and that
included trucks and couplers. I think the wood costs about $8 to $10
each.

Joel Holmes

> According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation Calculator
> http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl, that $2.65 is the approximate
> equivalent of $23 today.
>
> Would $23 get you enough scribed sheet, stripwood, small angle stock and
> wire today to build 5 car bodies? I wonder.
>
> -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23704	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

Have a look at the new-age version of that sort of thing........

In regards to photo-real 'card' modeling......

On Jan 14, 2015, at 2:44 PM, John Ott wrote:

>
> Mike, I've been experimenting with printed car sides for a few years. I've got a web page with notes and a steps-to-take PDF download that you might find useful:
>
> http://www.ottgallery.com/eight%20cars.html
>
> The main page on my present layout has a photo gallery of cars with printed sides:
>
> http://www.ottgallery.com/MRR.html
>
> John Ott

And if you want to see how he does it....

http://www.ottgallery.com/images/Laser%20print%20sided%20cars%20how-to.pdf

Think of how often you read in these model railroad lists that kids are too interested in their computers...........

As you can see from this stuff, they can be and still be a model railroader.

Think in terms of ......

http://store.doverpublications.com/0486253244.html

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-137970348157658_2348_155973313

http://www.ottgallery.com/images/8cars_2_L.jpg

DOESN'T THAT last one look like much less than $10 worth of materials ???? Perhaps less than $5 worth?

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 17, 2015, at 10:29 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> So then, by this we should jump on any Pacific HO/Silver Streak, Ambroid, Quality Craft, Northeastern Scale Models, Main Line Models, Binkley, Laconia, Scotia Scale Models, Suncoast Models, Lehigh Models, Canadian Railway Models, George Taylor, Juneco, Central Valley, Camino Scale Models, Con-Cor Models, Olympic Cascadian, A-C/L-W, Ideal, Megow, Comet, Marker Lights, Wabash Valley (Quick Kits) and similar material Red Ball, La Belle or even the Ye Olde Huff-N -Puff R.R. knock-offs at a $40 price. I left out a few as to not appear redundant < g >.
>
> It's too bad that not everyone's salaries always increase along the same lines as the Bureau of Labor Statistics figures do, or the annual increases in Social Security to keep up with the rate of inflation. Why is it that when selling these same items on eBay, that it's often like pulling teeth to get 1/2 this amount for these kits? And as for offering these kits for sale outright on the various Yahoo swap & sell groups at a quarter of this price most often brings little to no response?
>
> Somehow, I find shelling out this kind of money for a wood kit is hard to take and you'd never get me to part with $40 for any one of these manufacturers' rolling stock pieces as I can only see it as a rip off at this price. Might be I'm just behind times, but as for today's prices on similar current models, I feel this is one reason why the hobby is not attracting younger modelers.
>
> Ray W.
>
>
> In a message dated 1/17/2015 9:08:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
> Hi David,
>
> I highly doubt that you could build 5 cars for $23.00. I scratch build 34
> wood box cars and the whole car costs me between $30 and $40 and that
> included trucks and couplers. I think the wood costs about $8 to $10
> each.
>
> Joel Holmes
>
> > According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation Calculator
> > http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl, that $2.65 is the approximate
> > equivalent of $23 today.
> >
> > Would $23 get you enough scribed sheet, stripwood, small angle stock and
> > wire today to build 5 car bodies? I wonder.
> >
> > -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23705	From: david_helber	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23706	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

If it's plastic........ it's an O-Lin kit. [I have a few of them, they pop up from time to time, sometimes completely untouched and never built.] I've reserved one, never built, to mold and cast to have some operating versions.

If it's metal.... Its a recast [re-investment] of the same kit by Kemtron.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 PM, dnhelber@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23707	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

Oh,

The O-Lin kit came about in the 50's and the Kemtron version a bit later.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:39 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

If it's plastic........ it's an O-Lin kit. [I have a few of them, they pop up from time to time, sometimes completely untouched and never built.] I've reserved one, never built, to mold and cast to have some operating versions.

If it's metal.... Its a recast [re-investment] of the same kit by Kemtron.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 PM, dnhelber@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23708	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

Attachments :

H'lo All..this 2-4-0 looks to be brass, maybe the 1950's Kemtron 'Pufferbelly' kit...catalog page from HOSeeker attached.
Chrs, Russ

From: "dnhelber@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 18 January 2015, 15:30
Subject: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?

-- D

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23709	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ?? [1 Attachment]

Hi All,

I am wondering how a 4-2-0 got to be a 2-4-0?

Joel Holmes

> H'lo All..this 2-4-0 looks to be brass, maybe the 1950's Kemtron
> 'Pufferbelly' kit...catalogÂ page from HOSeeker attached.
> Â Chrs, Russ From: "dnhelber@... [vintageHO]"
> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 18 January 2015, 15:30
> Subject: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??
>
> Â Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?
>
> -- D #yiv4147323557 #yiv4147323557 -- #yiv4147323557ygrp-mkp {border:1px
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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23710	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

Joel,

It appears that the original poster in this thread first described it as a ("Norris") 2-4-0. Of course the eBay pic shows it as the 4-2-0 that it is.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/18/2015 7:54:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi All,

I am wondering how a 4-2-0 got to be a 2-4-0?

Joel Holmes

> H'lo All..this 2-4-0 looks to be brass, maybe the 1950's Kemtron
> 'Pufferbelly' kit...catalogÂ page from HOSeeker attached.
> Â Chrs, Russ From: "dnhelber@... [vintageHO]"
> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 18 January 2015, 15:30
> Subject: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??
>
> Â Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?
>
> -- D #yiv4147323557 #yiv4147323557 -- #yiv4147323557ygrp-mkp {border:1px
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>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23711	From: Dennis Kunkel	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Leaf springs improve the ride quality of locomotives, tenders, passenger cars, and cabooses due to the damping provided by inter-leaf friction. The inter-leaf friction provides coulomb damping, which is not as effective for ride quality as hydraulic damping, which is the type of damping provided by automotive shock absorbers. Automotive hydraulic dampers are tuned to provide different amounts of damping depending on the velocity at which they are stroked. The variable damping is provided by a variety of orifices and valves within the shock absorber. Some lightweight passenger car trucks use hydraulic dampers for improved ride. Coulomb damping is only tunable by the number of spring leaves used in the spring pack (more leaves = more friction) and the damping does not vary with velocity. However, coulomb damping is better than no damping at all, which is what you get with coil springs. There is some frictional damping provided by the truck mechanism, but this friction is present with both coil springs and leaf springs.

In terms of load capacity, I think you can probably get the same spring rate out of multiple coil springs as you can get from leaf springs, in the same package size, but the coil springs will have much less damping. Heavy duty freight trucks use coil springs.

Dennis Kunkel

From: "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Chuck Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎January‎ ‎17‎, ‎2015 ‎7‎:‎42‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Keith,

John Hagen

PSC lists part # 31968, "D&RGW caboose leaf springs, brass 12pkg".

Now, can someone tell me why leaf springs are used to provide a softer ride than coil springs on tenders and cabooses, but on cars and trucks, coil springs are used to provide a softer ride??

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23712	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ?? [1 Attachment]

Hi Russ,

Thanks to you and Mike, this question has probably been answered as it being a Kemtron product. Your further description of "Pufferbelly" prompted me to go to my Kemtron catalogs for research. The eBay photo of this model and the photo illustrated in the Kemtron catalogs are nearly identical, except for a few small parts missing on the eBay model. Kemtron's full description of their offering is "Kemtron 'Pufferbelly' MODELED AFTER C&NW PIONEER."

It's noticed that the eBay Seller states that this model has not been track tested, but as he's selling it as part of his family estate there's the chance he never even looked closely enough at it to see if it could operate, nor might he even be at all familiar with model trains. For anyone interested in it, such as "dnh' on here, it might be a good question to ask as to whether this model is even powered (if operating it is of any concern) -- even though there's only about 14 hours left before closing. Kemtron offered this model in two versions; Catalog # P-400 Complete Powered Kit and Catalog # P-400-D Dummy Loco & Tender. Noticed also, that what appears to be Driver drive belts in Kemtron's pic, extending from that tiny rectangular-shaped part on the middle of the running board -- directly in verticle line with the rear of the pilot truck's second wheel -- to the outside journals of the drivers are missing on this eBay model. While it could still be a powered model, and while it could even be powered from the tender if it were a powered model, the chance is there that it's an unpowered model. There are also two steam/air tubes on each side that would extend from forward of the boiler, back up to the dome just in front of the cab, but this is easily replaced.

Now, as for this being a Norris Locomotive Works (Wm. Norris - Philadelphia, PA) product, I don't know how this description was derived at. While Norris manufactured 4-2-0 steam engines around the time this was built. Any of them that I'm familiar with never had a cab (I don't believe Norris produced any 4-2-0's with a cab as this was not part of the design yet in those years -- by any locomotive manufacturer). Norris did manufacture the similar 4-2-0 (but cab-less) "Lafayette" engine for the B&O.

This model of a 2-4-0 up on eBay, with a cab and appearing to be a Kemtron product, resembles the prototype of the C&NW Pioneer. It was built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works (also in Philadelphia at this time) in 1837 originally for the Utica & Schenectady RR. It was sold to the Michigan Central in 1846, which added the cab and distinctive tender to it then. The MC RR sold it to the C&NW predecessor Galena Chicago & Union RR in 1848, which is where it's fame came from as a C&NW engine. We'll note that Kemtron'e excellent effort's in reproducing this prototype has a very striking resemblance to StromBecKer's early effort in producing their solid wood model of this same locomotive.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/18/2015 5:32:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

H'lo All..this 2-4-0 looks to be brass, maybe the 1950's Kemtron 'Pufferbelly' kit...catalog page from HOSeeker attached.
Chrs, Russ

From: "dnhelber@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com& gt;
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 18 January 2015, 15:30
Subject: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23713	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ?? [1 Attachment]

BTW, Kemtron catalogs also list this tender separately as two different catalog numbers: P- 421 Tender only (no wheels) (Includes Journal Boxes) -- and P- 422 Tender complete with Power. This model is apparently powered from the tender and should be asked about on eBay for this feature.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/18/2015 5:32:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

H'lo All..this 2-4-0 looks to be brass, maybe the 1950's Kemtron 'Pufferbelly' kit...catalog page from HOSeeker attached.
Chrs, Russ

From: "dnhelber@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com& gt;
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 18 January 2015, 15:30
Subject: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23714	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

Pictures 3, 4, & 5 show a self-contained tender drive.

I believe its the Lindsey Spoon-full of Power drive that Kemtron used for a number of their smaller models.

As an aside, I don't know if everyone knows how to full screen the eBay images.

Since I had to discover this for myself, I'll tell others that might not yet learned about it.

Almost all eBay images that are more than one picture will display full screen images if you double click on the image. A lot of of folks have stumbled on this. If you've not yet found this, now you know.

I use this to save full sized images of those models I get interested in, but don't expect to win. Just maybe, I'll be able to make a model like it someday, or will find another one like it later.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 18, 2015, at 9:08 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> BTW, Kemtron catalogs also list this tender separately as two different catalog numbers: P- 421 Tender only (no wheels) (Includes Journal Boxes) -- and P- 422 Tender complete with Power. This model is apparently powered from the tender and should be asked about on eBay for this feature.
>
> Ray W.
>
>
> In a message dated 1/18/2015 5:32:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
> H'lo All..this 2-4-0 looks to be brass, maybe the 1950's Kemtron 'Pufferbelly' kit...catalog page from HOSeeker attached.
> Chrs, Russ
> From: "dnhelber
>
>
> Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?
>
> -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23715	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

I didn't dwell on checking out each pic on the eBay site, although it probably would have helped. Yes, double clicking on the pic will enlarge it to full screen; I often use it to see the smaller details better. Kemtron's pic in their catalogs show what appears could be the Lindsay "Teaspoon of Power" motor, so with this eBay model having what looks like the same, this only adds to it being the Kemtron 'Pufferbelly' C&NW Pioneer. BTW, I don't see this model in Kemtron's catalog much after the early ' 60's. It was discontinued comparatively early even though this would have been at least about a dozen years (or more) into Kemtron's founding.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/18/2015 1:29:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Pictures 3, 4, & 5 show a self-contained tender drive.

I believe its the Lindsey Spoon-full of Power drive that Kemtron used for a number of their smaller models.

As an aside, I don't know if everyone knows how to full screen the eBay images.

Since I had to discover this for myself, I'll tell others that might not yet learned about it.

Almost all eBay images that are more than one picture will display full screen images if you double click on the image. A lot of of folks have stumbled on this. If you've not yet found this, now you know.

I use this to save full sized images of those models I get interested in, but don't expect to win. Just maybe, I'll be able to make a model like it someday, or will find another one like it later.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 18, 2015, at 9:08 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> BTW, Kemtron catalogs also list this tender separately as two different catalog numbers: P- 421 Tender only (no wheels) (Includes Journal Boxes) -- and P- 422 Tender complete with Power. This model is apparently powered from the tender and should be asked about on eBay for this feature.
>
> Ray W.
>
>
> In a message dated 1/18/2015 5:32:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
> H'lo All..this 2-4-0 looks to be brass, maybe the 1950's Kemtron 'Pufferbelly' kit...catalog page from HOSeeker attached.
> Chrs, Russ
> From: "dnhelber
>
>
> Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?
>
> -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23716	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Enlarging eBay Photos (Was RE: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay Loc

The photos in the eBay auctions can be enlarged by double clicking PROVIDED the lister has used large enough photos. I see several that won’t enlarge because the lister has actually read some of the information on pasting photo and found out that the size used is (whatever the size is, I ignore that and use bigger photos so they will enlarge). I see some listings that have several well done photos but they do not enlarge because the lister has no idea of the ins and outs of using photos. You can use photos much larger than size shown without incurring and extra fees so ……. Photos. Good, LARGE photos, are so important to getting a good buck for your product.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 3:15 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

Ray W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23717	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Enlarging eBay Photos (Was RE: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay

John,

You're so right. I can't enlarge all photos on eBay, but will enlarge those that I can whenever I can. Listers should learn more about including their photos as it's only to their advantage in selling their items.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/18/2015 5:33:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The photos in the eBay auctions can be enlarged by double clicking PROVIDED the lister has used large enough photos. I see several that won’t enlarge because the lister has actually read some of the information on pasting photo and found out that the size used is (whatever the size is, I ignore that and use bigger photos so they will enlarge). I see some listings that have several well done photos but they do not enlarge because the lister has no idea of the ins and outs of using photos. You can use photos much larger than size shown without incurring and extra fees so ……. Photos. Good, LARGE photos, are so important to getting a good buck for your product.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 3:15 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

I didn't dwell on checking out each pic on the eBay site, although it probably would have helped. Yes, double clicking on the pic will enlarge it to full screen; I often use it to see the smaller details better. Kemtron's pic in their catalogs show what appears could be the Lindsay "Teaspoon of Power" motor, so with this eBay model having what looks like the same, this only adds to it being the Kemtron 'Pufferbelly' C&NW Pioneer. BTW, I don't see this model in Kemtron's catalog much after the early ' 60's. It was discontinued comparatively early even though this would have been at least about a dozen years (or more) into Kemtron's founding.

Ray W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23718	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Enlarging eBay Photos (Was RE: [vintageHO] ?? Maker of this eBay

I guess that must be why, at 12:29PM.....

"Almost all eBay images that are more than one picture will display full screen images if you double click on the image.............. mb"

Although the why of this is interesting as well......... We quickly learn not to trust the fuzzy, hard to view, can't enlarge images of questionable offers.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 18, 2015, at 5:17 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> John,
>
> You're so right. I can't enlarge all photos on eBay, but will enlarge those that I can whenever I can. Listers should learn more about including their photos as it's only to their advantage in selling their items.
>
> Ray W.
>
>
> In a message dated 1/18/2015 5:33:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
> The photos in the eBay auctions can be enlarged by double clicking PROVIDED the lister has used large enough photos. I see several that won’t enlarge because the lister has actually read some of the information on pasting photo and found out that the size used is (whatever the size is, I ignore that and use bigger photos so they will enlarge). I see some listings that have several well done photos but they do not enlarge because the lister has no idea of the ins and outs of using photos. You can use photos much larger than size shown without incurring and extra fees so ……. Photos. Good, LARGE photos, are so important to getting a good buck for your product.
>
>
> John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23719	From: corlissbs	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

In a message dated 1/17/2015 10:29:57 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

So then, by this we should jump on any Pacific HO/Silver Streak, Ambroid, Quality Craft, Northeastern Scale Models, Main Line Models, Binkley, Laconia, Scotia Scale Models, Suncoast Models, Lehigh Models, Canadian Railway Models, George Taylor, Juneco, Central Valley, Camino Scale Models, Con-Cor Models, Olympic Cascadian, A-C/L-W, Ideal, Megow, Comet, Marker Lights, Wabash Valley (Quick Kits) and similar material Red Ball, La Belle or even the Ye Olde Huff-N -Puff R.R. knock-offs at a $40 price. I left out a few as to not appear redundant < g >.

It's too bad that not everyone's salaries always increase along the same lines as the Bureau of Labor Statistics figures do, or the annual increases in Social Security to keep up with the rate of inflation. Why is it that when selling these same items on eBay, that it's often like pulling teeth to get 1/2 this amount for these kits? And as for offering these kits for sale outright on the various Yahoo swap & sell groups at a quarter of this price most often brings little to no response?

Somehow, I find shelling out this kind of money for a wood kit is hard to take and you'd never get me to part with $40 for any one of these manufacturers' rolling stock pieces as I can only see it as a rip off at this price. Might be I'm just behind times, but as for today's prices on similar current models, I feel this is one reason why the hobby is not attracting younger modelers.

Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23720	From: corlissbs	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

I see these wood kits periodically at train shows and they don't sell. I remember last year at the Madison, WI show, there werequite a few of the old wood kits and I don't know that anyone was buying.

But if it is a race to see how cheaply a wood car can be constructed, one can copy a Strombecker kit.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23721	From: Dave Robison	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Thank you all very much for all the info on leaf springs, both 1:87 scale and 1:1 scale! You guys are a great resource. I had no idea that sprung trucks could so easily be converted from coil to leaf springs, and while (as someone mentioned) the leaf springs aren't exactly scale (but neither are the coil springs, really), I do think the leaf springs seem more appropriate for under the tender. I looked at the Kemtron springs on eBay and they're different than what I have, but the PSC part # 31968 looks like a match, so I'll probably get some of those and convert some trucks.

Thanks! Dave

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23722	From: Martin Rosenfeld	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

The prices are usually set too high. I build old wooden kits.

Martin Rosenfeld

On 01/18/15 03:42 pm, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>
> I see these wood kits periodically at train shows and they don't sell.
> I remember last year at the Madison, WI show, there werequite a few of
> the old wood kits and I don't know that anyone was buying.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23723	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

The newer tab in slot modelers and the open the box-only modelers are uncomfortable with kits that require a greater number of steps to build.

The more traditional modelers may not need another duplicate car as that kit is.

The more radical modelers are into RTV casting and aware of tools like the new $600 laser cutter and the $300 cnc-craft-cutters.

Once they get an example Red Ball car kit, they can improve upon the cast parts and quickly crank out better examples of the same in fast-set resin or photo-card.

Even a single car kit that they'd like to have several of, say of a merchant dispatch car, can be cloned into those several cars instead of spending years trying to find enough of the original kits to have a train worth.

Your mindset changes from finding the perfect kit, to how to make that for yourself without having to be lucky enough to find it.

The biggest snag to anything at a swap meet is that day, the fellow that is looking for just that item, must be there as well.

Just today, I saw a lovely pile of HO Walthers old-school HO passenger car kits. I could have had 15 of them for under $150 and while I was very tempted, I wasn't sure I would find the time to build them. Also, I'd want them without the solid roof stock, the oversized body rivets, and some other parts I would rather replace than use.

In short, I'd want them to be as I plot to build the like in the sort-of very near future. If I built them, I'd replace nearly all of each kit.

I'll be where they may be again next month......... maybe I'll weaken and buy them........ Or maybe I'll just go with remaking them from the old Walthers Planbook.......

While I was tempted........... Well.......

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 18, 2015, at 5:42 PM, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I see these wood kits periodically at train shows and they don't sell. I remember last year at the Madison, WI show, there werequite a few of the old wood kits and I don't know that anyone was buying.

But if it is a race to see how cheaply a wood car can be constructed, one can copy a Strombecker kit.

Brad Smith
Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23724	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

This is the Kemtron brass version. You can see the Lindsay motor peeking out from underneath the tender. Kemtron bought the dies from O-Lin after they went out of business and used them to produce the parts in brass instead of plastic. They used a Lindsay 'teaspoon o'power' truck to power it. They ran very poorly since the loco needed to free-wheel and it was hard to make it do that.

There was a recent update of this loco offered by David Hoffman and some were sold on eBay by Al Mueller. These were superb runners with a can motor and NWSL gears. It was a limited production run and I think they are all gone.

Matt

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <dnhelber@...> wrote :

Does anyone know who made this HO model of a Norris 2-4-0, and when?

-- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23725	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

CORLISSBS,

Is there as point here in your repeating this message? I don't see any reply of yours to this, unless this was inadvertently sent to the 'Net before you had time to post anything.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/18/2015 6:39:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

In a message dated 1/17/2015 10:29:57 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

So then, by this we should jump on any Pacific HO/Silver Streak, Ambroid, Quality Craft, Northeastern Scale Models, Main Line Models, Binkley, Laconia, Scotia Scale Models, Suncoast Models, Lehigh Models, Canadian Railway Models, George Taylor, Juneco, Central Valley, Camino Scale Models, Con-Cor Models, Olympic Cascadian, A-C/L-W, Ideal, Megow, Comet, Marker Lights, Wabash Valley (Quick Kits) and similar material Red Ball, La Belle or even the Ye Olde Huff-N -Puff R.R. knock-offs at a $40 price. I left out a few as to not appear redundant < g >.

It's too bad that not everyone's salaries always increase along the same lines as the Bureau of Labor Statistics figures do, or the annual increases in Social Security to keep up with the rate of inflation. Why is it that when selling these same items on eBay, that it's often like pulling teeth to get 1/2 this amount for these kits? And as for offering these kits for sale outright on the various Yahoo swap & sell groups at a quarter of this price most often brings little to no response?

Somehow, I find shelling out this kind of money for a wood kit is hard to take and you'd never get me to part with $40 for any one of these manufacturers' rolling stock pieces as I can only see it as a rip off at this price. Might be I'm just behind times, but as for today's prices on similar current models, I feel this is one reason why the hobby is not attracting younger modelers.

Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23726	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/18/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

Part of why craftsman kits don't sell at train shows is due to the price and if they were priced affordably, then other reasons they may not sell is because of rivet counters not appreciating the vintage charm of these early manufacturers' products. Still other reasons may be because many of us older vintage collectors and operators already have most of them. As most manufactures who offered pre-painted and lettered wood car sides produced only one road number, it's impossible to create a train of numerous similar models by the same manufacturer of a certain road name like NYC Merchants Despatch without having all the same number. Along these same lines, fortunately several manufacturers like Laconia, Con-Cor and Marker Light Models had two or even three different road numbers for the same road name, but this still couldn't allow for making a unit train of them.

Athearn was one of the very few (if not the only manufacturer) which offered up to sixteen different road numbers for a single road name, and these were metal, not wood. Globe also had the foresight to produce numerous road numbers for their metal cars, but except for a select few road names having up to eight different numbers, most were restricted to no more than three different numbers and many had only one number. They did produce up to six different numbers for their stock cars, but these were printed cardstock plackards, not pre-printed sides. Varney were similar in this respect, producing a good many numbers for their metal flat cars while restricting their box cars and reefers to no more than three different numbers and on only some road names, with the remainder getting only one road number.

Then, as has been already brought to our attention many times, today's young modelers not only expect nothing more difficult than shake-the-box kits but the youngest ones want only factory built models and prefer to forego the pleasure of building any kits, which we took enjoyment of as part of the hobby. Much of these kits' selling potential is still in the pricing though, and the buyer willing to pay $20 or more for them is rare even though it was just pointed out that with inflation they're worth $30 to $40 as comparable to their original $2.49 price -- and it's usually the vintage modeler who needs that certain road number to help complete his collection, who would pay the higher asking price. At $150 for 15 of them (@ $10 each), most any of us would buy them if we didn't already have them, but when sellers price them any higher they stay on the table even though they're worth more, without yet considering the scarcity of some of them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/18/2015 7:24:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The newer tab in slot modelers and the open the box-only modelers are uncomfortable with kits that require a greater number of steps to build.

The more traditional modelers may not need another duplicate car as that kit is.

The more radical modelers are into RTV casting and aware of tools like the new $600 laser cutter and the $300 cnc-craft-cutters.

Once they get an example Red Ball car kit, they can improve upon the cast parts and quickly crank out better examples of the same in fast-set resin or photo-card.

Even a single car kit that they'd like to have several of, say of a merchant dispatch car, can be cloned into those several cars instead of spending years trying to find enough of the original kits to have a train worth.

Your mindset changes from finding the perfect kit, to how to make that for yourself without having to be lucky enough t o find it.

The biggest snag to anything at a swap meet is that day, the fellow that is looking for just that item, must be there as well.

Just today, I saw a lovely pile of HO Walthers old-school HO passenger car kits. I could have had 15 of them for under $150 and while I was very tempted, I wasn't sure I would find the time to build them. Also, I'd want them without the solid roof stock, the oversized body rivets, and some other parts I would rather replace than use.

In short, I'd want them to be as I plot to build the like in the sort-of very near future. If I built them, I'd replace nearly all of each kit.

I'll be where they may be again next month......... maybe I'll weaken and buy them........ Or maybe I'll just go with remaking them from the old Walthers Planbook.......

While I was tempted........... Well.......

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 18, 2015, at 5:42 PM, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I see these wood kits periodically at train shows and they don't sell. I remember last year at the Madison, WI show, there werequite a few of the old wood kits and I don't know that anyone was buying.

But if it is a race to see how cheaply a wood car can be constructed, one can copy a Strombecker kit.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23727	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

On 1/18/2015 11:50 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> As most manufactures who offered pre-painted and lettered wood car sides
> produced only one road number, it's impossible to create a train of
> numerous similar models by the same manufacturer of a certain road name
> like NYC Merchants Despatch without having all the same number.

One of my conundrums for a long, long time has been finding a good
way to change the numbers on pre-painted wood kits like Silver Streak
and Central Valley. It seem that painting over the number a replacing
the entire reporting mark might be better than just doing the last one
or two numbers, but getting a good paint match so the work isn't
apparent can be a problem.

--

Rick Jones

A closed mouth gathers no foot.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23728	From: Brad Smith	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

It was sent by mistake. Sorry.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Jan 18, 2015, at 10:54 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

CORLISSBS,

Is there as point here in your repeating this message? I don't see any reply of yours to this, unless this was inadvertently sent to the 'Net before you had time to post anything.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/18/2015 6:39:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

In a message dated 1/17/2015 10:29:57 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

So then, by this we should jump on any Pacific HO/Silver Streak, Ambroid, Quality Craft, Northeastern Scale Models, Main Line Models, Binkley, Laconia, Scotia Scale Models, Suncoast Models, Lehigh Models, Canadian Railway Models, George Taylor, Juneco, Central Valley, Camino Scale Models, Con-Cor Models, Olympic Cascadian, A-C/L-W, Ideal, Megow, Comet, Marker Lights, Wabash Valley (Quick Kits) and similar material Red Ball, La Belle or even the Ye Olde Huff-N -Puff R.R. knock-offs at a $40 price. I left out a few as to not appear redundant < g >.

It's too bad that not everyone's salaries always increase along the same lines as the Bureau of Labor Statistics figures do, or the annual increases in Social Security to keep up with the rate of inflation. Why is it that when selling these same items on eBay, that it's often like pulling teeth to get 1/2 this amount for these kits? And as for offering these kits for sale outright on the various Yahoo swap & sell groups at a quarter of this price most often brings little to no response?

Somehow, I find shelling out this kind of money for a wood kit is hard to take and you'd never get me to part with $40 for any one of these manufacturers' rolling stock pieces as I can only see it as a rip off at this price. Might be I'm just behind times, but as for today's prices on similar current models, I feel this is one reason why the hobby is not attracting younger modelers.

Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23729	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

Okay, thanks for the explanation. I couldn't see the purpose, but then I'm sure this has happened to many of us at one time or another.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/19/2015 9:12:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

It was sent by mistake. Sorry.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Jan 18, 2015, at 10:54 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

CORLISSBS,

Is there as point here in your repeating this message? I don't see any reply of yours to this, unless this was inadvertently sent to the 'Net before you had time to post anything.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/18/2015 6:39:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

In a message dated 1/17/2015 10:29:57 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

So then, by this we should jump on any Pacific HO/Silver Streak, Ambroid, Quality Craft, Northeastern Scale Models, Main Line Models, Binkley, Laconia, Scotia Scale Models, Suncoast Models, Lehigh Models, Canadian Railway Models, George Taylor, Juneco, Central Valley, Camino Scale Models, Con-Cor Models, Olympic Cascadian, A-C/L-W, Ideal, Megow, Comet, Marker Lights, Wabash Valley (Quick Kits) and similar material Red Ball, La Belle or even the Ye Olde Huff-N -Puff R.R. knock-offs at a $40 price. I left out a few as to not appear redundant < g >.

It's too bad that not everyone's salaries always increase along the same lines as the Bureau of Labor Statistics figures do, or the annual increases in Social Security to keep up with the rate of inflation. Why is it that when selling these same items on eBay, that it's often like pulling teeth to get 1/2 this amount for these kits? And as for offering these kits for sale outright on the various Yahoo swap & sell groups at a quarter of this price most often brings little to no response?

Somehow, I find shelling out this kind of money for a wood kit is hard to take and you'd never get me to part with $40 for any one of these manufacturers' rolling stock pieces as I can only see it as a rip off at this price. Might be I'm just behind times, but as for today's prices on similar current models, I feel this is one reason why the hobby is not attracting younger modelers.

Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23730	From: anypaddler	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Old Men

Ray Wetzel wrote:

< ...it's impossible to create a train of numerous similar models by the same manufacturer of a certain road name like NYC Merchants Despatch without having all the same number.

----------------------------------------

Several years ago I attended an NMRA regional convention in Baltimore, and one of the layouts we visited was in suburban Columbia, MD. The layout ran around the entire basement, including through the walls of the basement lounge, laundry, and lavatory. Not only was it a large layout, but so were the trains, upwards of 20-car passenger trains and 100-car freights. But don't look too closely at that train of 55-ton 2-bay hoppers; they're all Athearn and all had the same number. Just stand back a few feet; you're not a 1950's yard clerk writing out the consist for the conductor. ;-)

Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23731	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Hi Dave,
Go ahead and give it a try, you need to see the results for yourself. If you like the results, then all is good. The PSC springs are the same as Kemtron as PSC purchased the Kemtron line a long time ago.
I have actually done this to a couple of sets of trucks for cabeese, but there are a couple of issues.
1. Not easy to do. You may go through a half dozen or more to do a set of trucks as they don't like to be bent/re-bent too much. They may not line up really well to the nubs that held the coil springs, so you may have to elongate the holes a bit or throw away a spring that was just plan formed wrong. Elongating the holes is not easy.
2. Once you installed them, you may find they look oversize. I have found that caboose trucks from Kadee or Tichy look really nice and show the leaf springs. While they are not working springs, they look a lot better than the oversize working leaf springs. And they are a LOT easier to use. :o)
Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:11:09 -0800
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23732	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Another thing to consider is that many caboose trucks were swing motion trucks, In such cases the springs (leaf or coil, generally leafs) did not fill in the whole area occupied by the springs on normal freight trucks. The swing motion assembly took up much of the space so the leaf springs were quite a bit smaller. So unless you are modeling a caboose with non-swing motion trucks, simply putting leafs in a freight truck still won’t look right.

Here is a website I found just now that will be of great help to you, at least it is to me. It explains a lot of what we were trying to describe. And it has several photos, worth thousands of words.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2015 10:11 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23733	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

On 1/19/2015 10:21 AM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote:

>
>
> Another thing to consider is that many caboose trucks were swing motion
> trucks, In such cases the springs (leaf or coil, generally leafs) did
> not fill in the whole area occupied by the springs on normal freight
> trucks. The swing motion assembly took up much of the space so the leaf
> springs were quite a bit smaller. So unless you are modeling a caboose
> with non-swing motion trucks, simply putting leafs in a freight truck
> still won’t look right.
>
> Here is a website I found just now that will be of great help to you, at
> least it is to me. It explains a lot of what we were trying to describe.
> And it has several photos, worth thousands of words.
>
> http://www.spookshow.net/trucks/betcaboose.html

I've always wondered what "swing motion" means.

--

Rick Jones

It is not caving in to the bees to stop poking a stick into
their hive.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23734	From: Dave Robison	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Thanks again for the additional info, guys!

John, those are great photos on that website, but what I'm dealing with right now is a tender, not a caboose, and I think it should have (and came with) arch bar trucks, not Betterndorf style, so I just don't know how much of the info applies.

Vic, the Kemtron leaf springs pictured on eBay at the moment look (through the old plastic package) to be quite different than the PSC leaf springs, much more complex, as if they were made to be mounted inside a special truck with just a bit showing outside, or something. The PSC leaf springs as shown on their website are the same or similar to what I have and you describe, basically a folded piece of brass (bronze?). If I can find a source for the PSC leaf springs that doesn't charge too much for shipping, I'll get some to play with, so thanks for the tips. And yes, they do look oversize, but then the rear of a big electric motor in the cab and the worm gear visible under the boiler don't look very realistic, either! Since what I need are tender trucks for the old brass/diecast Mantua Mogul, I do need the trucks to pick up power from one rail; do Kadee or Tichy make a metal arch bar truck with metal wheels and with leaf springs? If I was smart I'd
probably just try to find some old Mantua tender trucks and keep it simple…

Thanks! Dave

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 1/19/15, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 19, 2015, 8:21 AM

Another thing to
consider is that many caboose trucks were swing motion
trucks, In such cases the springs (leaf or coil, generally
leafs) did not fill in the whole area occupied by the
springs on normal freight trucks. The swing motion assembly
took up much of the space so the leaf springs were quite a
bit smaller. So unless you are modeling a caboose with
non-swing motion trucks, simply putting leafs in a freight
truck still won’t look right. Here is a website I
found just now that will be of great help to you, at least
it is to me. It explains a lot of what we were trying to
describe. And it has several photos, worth thousands of
words.http://www.spookshow.net/trucks/betcaboose.html John
Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2015 10:11
AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch
Bar Tender Trucks? Hi Dave,
Go
ahead and give it a try, you need to see the results for
yourself. If you like the results, then all is good. The
PSC springs are the same as Kemtron as PSC purchased the
Kemtron line a long time ago.
I have
actually done this to a couple of sets of trucks for
cabeese, but there are a couple of issues.
1. Not easy to do. You may go through a half
dozen or more to do a set of trucks as they don't like
to be bent/re-bent too much. They may not line up really
well to the nubs that held the coil springs, so you may have
to elongate the holes a bit or throw away a spring that was
just plan formed wrong. Elongating the holes is not
easy.
2. Once you installed them, you may
find they look oversize. I have found that caboose trucks
from Kadee or Tichy look really nice and show the leaf
springs. While they are not working springs, they look a
lot better than the oversize working leaf springs. And
they are a LOT easier to use. :o)
Regards,
Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23735	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Garbage

This is preposterous! This was a long Digest, half of it was garbage. Am I the only one seeing this?

Denis

Vintage HO Operators Group

Digest #3391

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23736	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Check this site out. It will download a 4 page pamphlet on the
Barber-Bettendorf Swing Motion Caboose Truck.

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVkClpb1UFiEAWe0lnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTEzdGQ1amp
yBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwM18x/RV=2/RE=1421743653/RO=10/R
U=http%3a%2f%2fsrha.net%2fdocuments%2fBarberCabooseTruckPamphlet.pdf/RK=0/RS
=gB5I.MtQ59QJUX6vm_YlVbNFCtk-

or

http://tinyurl.com/lkx5dpz (tinyurl)

John Hagen

I've always wondered what "swing motion" means.

--

Rick Jones

Yahoo Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23737	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/19/2015
Subject: Re: Garbage

You'll have to put up with it.

It's a problem with the online Yahoo message editor and some MS system editors.

Anyone using one of the badly programmed editors sends out that trash trailer as well.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 19, 2015, at 6:47 PM, "'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This is preposterous! This was a long Digest, half of it was garbage. Am I the only one seeing this?
Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23738	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 1/20/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Hi Dave,
Can you point me to the eBay auction showing the Kemtron leaf springs? The only ones I could find are simply details of leaf springs for steam locomotives that you solder onto the loco frame, but not the ones for the tender/caboose trucks. Kemtron did make working leaf springs for caboose/tender trucks, part number X-3-A (q 4), X-3-B (q 8), and X-3-C (q 16), priced at .60, 1.00, and 1.50 respectively. I believe these are the same as the PSC springs, which are made from phosphor bronze and look like a folded over like a piece of bronze with holes in it. Maybe you can get your local Hobby Shop to order these from Walthers, part number 585-31968. See the following:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=&scale=&manu=585&item=&keywords=spring&words=restrict&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search
These are called D&RGW caboose springs. Mine have a slotted hole across so they look like 585-357, the O scale springs. These are in stock at Walthers and I bet your local Hobby Shop places orders to Walthers very regularly and would likely not charge you shipping.

Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 10:13:06 -0800
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

On Mon, 1/19/15, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 19, 2015, 8:21 AM

Another thing to
consider is that many caboose trucks were swing motion
trucks, In such cases the springs (leaf or coil, generally
leafs) did not fill in the whole area occupied by the
springs on normal freight trucks. The swing motion assembly
took up much of the space so the leaf springs were quite a
bit smaller. So unless you are modeling a caboose with
non-swing motion trucks, simply putting leafs in a freight
truck still won’t look right. Here is a website I
found just now that will be of great help to you, at least
it is to me. It explains a lot of what we were trying to
describe. And it has several photos, worth thousands of
words.http://www.spookshow.net/trucks/betcaboose.html John
Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2015 10:11
AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch
Bar Tender Trucks? Hi Dave,
Go
ahead and give it a try, you need to see the results for
yourself. If you like the results, then all is good. The
PSC springs are the same as Kemtron as PSC purchased the
Kemtron line a long time ago.
I have
actually done this to a couple of sets of trucks for
cabeese, but there are a couple of issues.
1. Not easy to do. You may go through a half
dozen or more to do a set of trucks as they don't like
to be bent/re-bent too much. They may not line up really
well to the nubs that held the coil springs, so you may have
to elongate the holes a bit or throw away a spring that was
just plan formed wrong. Elongating the holes is not
easy.
2. Once you installed them, you may
find they look oversize. I have found that caboose trucks
from Kadee or Tichy look really nice and show the leaf
springs. While they are not working springs, they look a
lot better than the oversize working leaf springs. And
they are a LOT easier to use. :o)
Regards,
Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23739	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 1/20/2015
Subject: prices (was) Re: Old Men

I use a simple method of estimating current price of an item, the MR index. When I'm reading a 1960's MR, look at the PFM ad for a brass ATSF F-7 for $30 dollars I wonder why on earth I didn't buy one. -- well the magazine cost 50 cents, so $30 is sixty times the cost of the magazine. I did a quick and dirty chart (if it messes up try changing the font to Courier, a monospaced font)

1960 MR at 50 cents                                 # of Magazines          2014 RMC at 5.95
AHM RTR 4-4-2                               14.95    29.90          177.91
Walthers Heavyweight Pullman     7.30              14.60             86.87
Athearn RTR GP-9                           9.95    19.90          118.41
Athearn Kit Quad hopper                   1.49    2.98          17.73
MRC basic power pack                       13.95    27.90          166.01
Brass 2-10-4                                69.50    139.00          827.05
NS flex track (sale)                       0.69    1.38          8.21

I'm not trying to say that a 1960 AHM engine is equivalent to a 2014 engine, it is just a rough measure of what that item if available today would cost, to bring me down from the "I shudda got a dozen" thinking.

Willard

PS, I won't tell you how old I am. I will say that the rumors I changed Methuselah's diapers are false!! He was in the 3d grade when I met him.

This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23740	From: louis niederlander	Date: 1/20/2015
Subject: Re: prices (was) Re: Old Men

Back when Model Railroader was 50 cents, I was working at Spark's Hobby Shop in Cleveland for 75 cents/hour.

Actually is was 1965 but MR was still 50c.

Louis N

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 09:59:39 -0500
Subject: [vintageHO] prices (was) Re: Old Men

I use a simple method of estimating current price of an item, the MR index. When I'm reading a 1960's MR, look at the PFM ad for a brass ATSF F-7 for $30 dollars I wonder why on earth I didn't buy one. -- well the magazine cost 50 cents, so $30 is sixty times the cost of the magazine. I did a quick and dirty chart (if it messes up try changing the font to Courier, a monospaced font)

1960 MR at 50 cents                                # of Magazines          2014 RMC at 5.95
AHM RTR 4-4-2                              14.95    29.90         177.91
Walthers Heavyweight Pullman    7.30              14.60            86.87
Athearn RTR GP-9                           9.95    19.90         118.41
Athearn Kit Quad hopper                   1.49     2.98          17.73
MRC basic power pack                      13.95    27.90         166.01
Brass 2-10-4                               69.50   139.00         827.05
NS flex track (sale)                       0.69     1.38           8.21

I'm not trying to say that a 1960 AHM engine is equivalent to a 2014 engine, it is just a rough measure of what that item if available today would cost, to bring me down from the "I shudda got a dozen" thinking.

Willard

PS, I won't tell you how old I am. I will say that the rumors I changed Methuselah's diapers are false!! He was in the 3d grade when I met him.

This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23741	From: Dave Audley	Date: 1/20/2015
Subject: Re: prices (was) Re: Old Men

When I turned 12, my Mom started giving me 35 cents to go downtown to Moro Hobby

in Downtown Edmonton to buy MR! 1957! The #2 bus ride was 10 cents one way, so

I got 55 cents to go and buy my copy of MR! I was still running my Lionel and cutting

grass ( no - not Marijuana ) to earn money for more Lionel cars! A couple of summer

vacations in the US allowed me to add more cars including a remote log dump car. All

this stayed with me untill Walthers brought out their HO Scale shop complex structures

and transfer table. I traded my Lionel for those. Jim Scott, at Trains & Such here in Calgary

loved to horse trade.

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 9:37 AM, "louis niederlander l_niederlander@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Back when Model Railroader was 50 cents, I was working at Spark's Hobby Shop in Cleveland for 75 cents/hour.

Actually is was 1965 but MR was still 50c.

Louis N

This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23742	From: Dave Robison	Date: 1/20/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Hi Vic,

When I searched for "Kemtron HO Leaf Springs" on eBay this is the only auction that came up: 111525741413

Other than the above, it sounds like the Walthers/Kemtron/PSC leaf springs are all the same, as you describe, folded bronze w/ holes & slot. There used to be a great local hobby shop, which closed, then was reopened in a new location but with no more model train dept, just some cars, etc. on the shelf; but I think there is still one model train store in the general area, guess I better check with them.

Thanks! Dave

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 1/20/15, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2015, 6:45 AM

Hi Dave,
Can you point me
to the eBay auction showing the Kemtron leaf springs? The
only ones I could find are simply details of leaf springs
for steam locomotives that you solder onto the loco frame,
but not the ones for the tender/caboose trucks. Kemtron
did make working leaf springs for caboose/tender trucks,
part number X-3-A (q 4), X-3-B (q 8), and X-3-C (q 16),
priced at .60, 1.00, and 1.50 respectively. I believe
these are the same as the PSC springs, which are made from
phosphor bronze and look like a folded over like a piece of
bronze with holes in it. Maybe you can get your local
Hobby Shop to order these from Walthers, part number
585-31968. See the following:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=&scale=&manu=585&item=&keywords=spring&words=restrict&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search
These are called D&RGW caboose springs.
Mine have a slotted hole across so they look like 585-357,
the O scale springs. These are in stock at Walthers and
I bet your local Hobby Shop places orders to Walthers very
regularly and would likely not charge you shipping.

Regards, Vic Bitleris
Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23743	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 1/20/2015
Subject: Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

Yes, the auction " 111525741413 " leaf springs are not the ones you want. These are details to be soldered on top of steam locomotive frames. Check the number I gave you, PSC 585-31968. Those are the ones you want. Walthers does have these in stock.
Off the leaf spring subject, considering you want tender trucks with pickup, the EASIEST solution for you would be to get some old MDC Roundhouse tender trucks. They may not be the easiest to find these days, they used to be able to be purchased in all Hobby Shops, including Hobbytown, where I purchased mine. These are the best for tender pickup. They also are arch bar trucks, but they represent coil springs, the same as Mantuas. Check eBay for these as well, they do get on eBay, but I suspect they get snatched up pretty quickly. I would not recommend looking for Mantua trucks as they have lots of oxidation issues.
Nowadays, I just use any plastic truck that suits me, usually Tichy or some other company. Then I put in nice nickel plated wheelsets, from NWSL, MDC Roundhouse ( I have some left) or PSC. I then make all wheel pickups using .015 phosphor bronze wipers. I never get any stalling at all with these.
However, I learned something new recently. TCS WOW with KA (keep alive). The decoder keeps the motor running for 10 seconds or more, even in thin air. No tender pickups needed if you have both sides pickup on the loco. :o) But, that is DCC and the decoder costs about $100, but has BEAUTIFUL sound.
Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 08:18:15 -0800
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?

On Tue, 1/20/15, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Sprung Arch Bar Tender Trucks?
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2015, 6:45 AM

Hi Dave,
Can you point me
to the eBay auction showing the Kemtron leaf springs? The
only ones I could find are simply details of leaf springs
for steam locomotives that you solder onto the loco frame,
but not the ones for the tender/caboose trucks. Kemtron
did make working leaf springs for caboose/tender trucks,
part number X-3-A (q 4), X-3-B (q 8), and X-3-C (q 16),
priced at .60, 1.00, and 1.50 respectively. I believe
these are the same as the PSC springs, which are made from
phosphor bronze and look like a folded over like a piece of
bronze with holes in it. Maybe you can get your local
Hobby Shop to order these from Walthers, part number
585-31968. See the following:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=&scale=&manu=585&item=&keywords=spring&words=restrict&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search
These are called D&RGW caboose springs.
Mine have a slotted hole across so they look like 585-357,
the O scale springs. These are in stock at Walthers and
I bet your local Hobby Shop places orders to Walthers very
regularly and would likely not charge you shipping.

Regards, Vic Bitleris
Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23744	From: bowtiefan47	Date: 1/22/2015
Subject: Re: Old Varney, MDC kits for sale

These kits are still for sale. As far as I can tell, all the kits are complete, and the only damage on most kits is some rusty screws or maybe the steel steps. There are posts on here regarding building old kits, so here's your chance to get a bunch for cheap.

Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23745	From: wilmeaux	Date: 1/22/2015
Subject: Re: Old Varney, MDC kits for sale

Where are these kits? Did you intend to send an attachment with your message?

From: mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 8:52 AM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Varney, MDC kits for sale

Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23746	From: david_helber	Date: 1/22/2015
Subject: Re: ?? Maker of this eBay Loco ??

I'm moderately embarassed that I not only misidentified the prototype as a Norris, but even fumblefingered the wheel arrangement. Still, it didn't seem to slow you guys down a bit.

Thanks to everyone for the answers and extra information. It turned out that half of eBay wanted it a lot more than I did. Guess I'll have to wait and find one at a garage sale.

Cheers,
David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23747	From: david_helber	Date: 1/22/2015
Subject: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Attachments :

RP-RG 3 Alco660 truck.400w.jpg

A while back, I came by a diecast Walthers ALCO HH660 - the one that resembles a charmingly crude 4-lb. lead brick. The body kit was initially released in 1938 (in bronze), so I've read. The postwar ones were lead alloy and apparently it took until about 1980 to sell off (or melt down) the last of them. Mine is powered by the motor-truck in the attached picture - with a bit of help from a drive band and a flexible coupling to the front truck (both now disintegrated).

I thought the loco was originally sold as an unpowered kit, so is this the original Walthers drive unit intended for it? Or did a different company market it to fit the Walthers body?

And don't you love the dress-snap electrical connector to the front pickups?

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23748	From: david_helber	Date: 1/22/2015
Subject: Re: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Whoops. I meant ALCO 600, not 660.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23749	From: bowtiefan47	Date: 1/22/2015
Subject: Re: Old Varney, MDC kits for sale

If you look at my previous post, you will see where I made an album showing all the kits, and a list of what is included.

Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23750	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/22/2015
Subject: Re: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

On 1/23/2015 12:18 AM, dnhelber@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Whoops. I meant ALCO 600, not 660.

To be even more specific, one of the first 10 HH-600's built for the New Haven.

I have to go down and look at what's in mine. The funny thing though, again I've got to go downstairs and check, substitute gears for the pullys, put on EMD sideframes, and you've got the truck that's in the Tenshodo FT Bunit I got that we went around about here a couple weeks ago,, right down to to the flywheel and the dress snaps.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23751	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 1/23/2015
Subject: Re: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

I don’t believe that Walters ever offered a power truck for the HH casting set, and yes, the body kit was catalogued for a long long time.

The drive unit reminds me of an Andeco unit, he used solid brass stock and machined out the details for the worm gears and driver spacing. Probably a Pittman motor from the looks of it, DC71?

My dad used his custom made drives for his PRR P-5 and O-1 electric locos (and a prototype for an L-6 that was never reproduced).

I really like the passenger car side frames – they might have been Walters stock!

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23752	From: willard seehorn	Date: 1/23/2015
Subject: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Don't go gettin' snarky now, son! Dress snaps have many uses: electrical connectors, brake wheels, core elements of sombreros (John Allen did it first), wheels under things like wagons and fork lifts.

Been there, done that (way too many years ago)

Willard

-----Original Message-----
From: "dnhelber@... [vintageHO]"
Sent: Jan 23, 2015 1:09 AM

And don't you love the dress-snap electrical connector to the front pickups?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23753	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 1/23/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Don't forget homemade universal joints for drive shafts.

-----Original Message-----
From: willard seehorn wseehorn@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 23, 2015 7:05 am
Subject: [vintageHO] dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

-----Original Message-----
From: "dnhelber@... [vintageHO]"
Sent: Jan 23, 2015 1:09 AM

And don't you love the dress-snap electrical connector to the front pickups?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23754	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/23/2015
Subject: Re: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit? [1 Attachment]

DN,

Sorry I'm not able to open your attachment to identify the motor in your ALCo diesel switcher, but this is not a problem of yours; when I click on it, I'm sent directly to the Neo home page where I can't navigate from there. But to answer your question -- which I believe has been addressed here before -- yes, Walthers did have their own (2-axle) Power Truck for this model (which was also used for their Gas-Electric Car, their 4-wheel Birney Street Car, their later MU Cars and for StromBecKer's Rock Island EMC TA Unit), as produced from 1938, on. These pre-War Power Unit(s) used a 6 - 8 volt motor, of course. Two different power units could be bought for this switcher, U239 with a 13:1 gear ratio, and U240 with a 6:1 gear ratio.

The same 6 - 8 volt U240 Power Unit (but the U239 was discontinued) was used post-War in 1946 and by 1949 Walthers replaced the 6 -8 volt mechanism with the 12 volt U483 (A) Power Unit using a Pittman DC-60 motor. The U483 (B) was the power truck only, without sideframes and then there was a U483 (C) with special wiring to operate without a trailing truck. Also after 1940, Walthers produced a 3-axle U111 Power Unit in 1941 with the same 6 - 8 volt motor and a 13:1 (only) gear ratio, which could be used for StromBecKer's early E Units, although this has no relevance here. Walthers did produce a Rock Island Conversion Kit (5654) just for the StromBecKer EMC TA and even offered the StromBecKer TA body (Catalog # V139) @ $1.00. The 3 axle U111 Power Truck is not offered in 1946, but by 1949 it's reintroduced with a Pittman DC-71 motor as U530 (A) complete with side frames and trailing truck and as U530 (B) Power Truck only. without sideframes.

As for the ALCo model designation you used, Walthers never referred to this model by any specific ALCo model number -- They cataloged it as; "DIESEL SWITCHING LOCOMOTIVE -- ALCO TYPE" during the years they produced this model from 1938 to 1950 (excluding 1942, 43, 44 & 45, naturally). While ALCo most often referred to this HH (for "High Hood") Series locomotive as either their HH600 or their HH660, depending upon the model in question, they've also referred to it as HH600/HH660 as there's virtually no difference in the body design -- their indistinguishable (externally) from one another. Both Units, and there were two, were naturally aspirated (were not Turbocharged) and internally both Units used very similar Prime Mover (engine) blocks with the same cylinder size (12.5" x 13"); presumedly, the HH660 had a slightly longer stroke). The HH600 used an M&S (Mcintosh and Seymour) 531 prime mover producing 600 HP, while the HH660 used an S&M 538 prime mover producing 660 HP.

Just to letter these units correctly, I believe there were 79 HH600 Units made and 43 HH660 Units made, with a little over two dozen prototype railroads buying the HH600. While I can't find Don's reply anywhere, I remember him mentioning the New Haven Railroad (although I don't remember exactly what was said). The New Haven bought ALCo's first HH600 demonstrator Unit (ALCo roadnumber 600) as their (NYNY&H) roadnumber 0900. This may be what Don mentioned. There was a second HH600 demonstrator Unit also, oddly numbered as ALCo's # 600 (but with a body redesign) which was sold to the Santa Fe and renumbered as their # 2300. The ALCo Demo Unit # 601 was sold to the LV (as their # 105), the Demo Unit # 602 was sold to the B&M (as their # 1102) and the Demo Unit # 603 was sold to the DL&W (as their # 401). The New Haven's HH600 Demo Unit, built in July 1931, was different in appearance from all the rest, with the sides sloping outwards from top to bottom. The cab sides did not extend all the way down to the frame either. Some other roads that bought the HH600 were B&M, CNJ, BRC, CE&I, and NYC, to name a few, and yes the New Haven bought another 10 of these -- numbered 0911 through 0920. The New Haven also bought 10 HH660 units -- numbered 0921 through 0930; a few other roads that bought these include ACL, MILW, B&M, SP and Erie.

With this HH600 ALCo construction model having been produced through May 1939, the body design was changed in 1934 after the earlier units were built with sharp edged front hood corners to curved corners after employing Otto Kuhler to redesign it. It was restyled again in 1938 with further nose rounding. As Walthers' model of this ALCo Diesel Switching Locomotive has squared (sharp) front corners, it appears that it was modeled on the pre-Kuhler design, but with its cab sides extending to the frame, and with it having battery boxes just ahead of the cab, it appears to be modeled on the July 32 -- mid-1934 body design, but not after Otto Kuhler redesigned the body, nor does it appear to have been modeled on the ALCo Demo # 600 New Haven 0900 Unit. The HH660 was produced until July 1940, not that it really matters here.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/23/2015 1:09:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A while back, I came by a diecast Walthers ALCO HH660 - the one that resembles a charmingly crude 4-lb. lead brick. The body kit was initially released in 1938 (in bronze), so I've read. The postwar ones were lead alloy and apparently it took until about 1980 to sell off (or melt down) the last of them. Mine is powered by the motor-truck in the attached picture - with a bit of help from a drive band and a flexible coupling to the front truck (both now disintegrated).

I thought the loco was originally sold as an unpowered kit, so is this the original Walthers drive unit intended for it? Or did a different company market it to fit the Walthers body?

And don't you love the dress-snap electrical connector to the front pickups?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23755	From: david_helber	Date: 1/23/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

... and don't forget the little valve wheels on industrial piping and bogie wheels on tracked vehicles.

I may not be as young as you think. The reason the dress snap on the motor wire tickled me was that it brought back those days when not much was available and cash was short, so lots of household items, discards, bits and parts found their way onto the layout in one form or another. The result might have been crude-looking by today's standards, but it was a special source of personal pride that you could make an water tower from an oatmeal box and a remote switch machine from two fishing weights, and snitched the roadmap from under your dad's car seat and cut out the oil company logo to paste on the fuel depot tanks.

I seem to remember it as more fun, but that's probably the deceptive effect of nostalgia ...

Cheers,

D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23756	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/23/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Attachments :

No, it was more fun.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 11:35 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23757	From: jbark76	Date: 1/23/2015
Subject: Re: Old Varney, MDC kits for sale

I tried emailing, but I guess it's not Yahoo.com. How can I see the email address? Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23758	From: david_helber	Date: 1/23/2015
Subject: Re: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit? [1 Attachment]

Ray,

I sent a reply to your post eight hours ago, but it hasn't shown up yet. Now it's obsolete, and I'm going to rewrite and send it again. Please excuse if it double-posts later.

Thank you so much for all that good information on the Walthers ALCo kit and the prototype.

Sorry you could not see the power truck photo as an attachment. I have put a copy into my
Walthers ALCo HH600/660
album in the PHOTOS section, so you can look for it there.

Thanks for the clarification on Walthers' actual name for the kit. I knew the prototype HH-600 and 660 shared the same body, but somewhere I'd gotten the idea that Walthers used the HH-600 name.

Seeing the model's sharp corners, I had thought, as you said, that the early versions of the prototype might have been sharp-edged and Kuhler had rounded them as part of the restyle. However I have been unable to find a picture of a prototype loco with the model's sharp edges, and finally decided Walthers must have just cheaped out on the production die. Can you provide a link to a photo of one of the pre-Kuhler HH locos with the boxlike-sharp edges? If so, I'd put it into my PHOTOS folder on the model.

Cheers,
-- David

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote :

DN,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/23/2015 1:09:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A while back, I came by a diecast Walthers ALCO HH660 - the one that resembles a charmingly crude 4-lb. lead brick. The body kit was initially released in 1938 (in bronze), so I've read. The postwar ones were lead alloy and apparently it took until about 1980 to sell off (or melt down) the last of them. Mine is powered by the motor-truck in the attached picture - with a bit of help from a drive band and a flexible coupling to the front truck (both now disintegrated).

I thought the loco was originally sold as an unpowered kit, so is this the original Walthers drive unit intended for it? Or did a different company market it to fit the Walthers body?

And don't you love the dress-snap electrical connector to the front pickups?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23759	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/23/2015
Subject: Re: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

David,

I was starting to wonder why my reply didn't stir up any further interest. I now see why it appeared this way. Strange things happen in cyberspace; your missing message might show up tomorrow -- or next week < g >. As for a photo of an earlier HH600 (pre-Kuhler) with the sharp corners on front of the hood, just do a google search for < B&M 1102 HH600 photo >. Click on the site that says < Railroad.Net - View Topic - B&M Alco HH600 & HH660 > near the very top of the hits list. Scroll down to the second photo on the left for Boston & Maine # 1102. The sharp hood corners are unmistakable. You'll also see other B&M HH600's, but they have the later Kuhler design. I believe I've seen other photos of the earlier HH600's, some with battery boxes on top of the frame, in front of the cab, but I just can't find them on the net right now.

While Walthers photo of their ALCo type Diesel switcher appears to have sharp corners at the front of the hood, similar to B&M 1102 prototype photo, with this (Walthers) model having a recessed headlight, if its front corners aren't quite as sharp as the B&M 1102 then it could seem that it's modeled after the first Kuhler redesign of the prototype. The recessed headlight was supposedly a kuhler redesign feature. Not ever having bought this model myself and only remember them from train meet shows 30 years ago, I don't know how sharp the front corners actually are. If they're slightly rounded then this indicated Kuhler's first redesign of the HH600. Walthers photo appears to have a completely flat nose though, which goes along with the sharp corners. The front corner rounding was even more pronounced with Kuhler's second redesign of it, which we know isn't what Walthers reproduced. With your having this model at hand, you'd be in the best position to see exactly how "sharp" the corners are, and/or, if it looks more like the B&M 1101 in the photos

One thing I'd like to add on the Walthers Power Truck while I'm here, is that not only was it available for the Diesel Switching Locomotive - Alco Type body for those modelers who needed to power it, but the Complete Kit included the Power Unit. This model came as three different catalog numbers: Body only (#6411) @ $3.25, Complete kit - w/Power Truck (#6410) @13.00 and Factory finished (assembled, w/Power Truck) @ $20.00.

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/24/2015 12:02:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I sent a reply to your post eight hours ago, but it hasn't shown up yet. Now it's obsolete, and I'm going to rewrite and send it again. Please excuse if it double-posts later.

Thank you so much for all that good information on the Walthers ALCo kit and the prototype.

Sorry you could not see the power truck photo as an attachment. I have put a copy into my
Walthers ALCo HH600/660
album in the PHOTOS section, so you can look for it there.

Thanks for the clarification on Walthers' actual name for the kit. I knew the prototype HH-600 and 660 shared the same body, but somewhere I'd gotten the idea that Walthers used the HH-600 name.

Seeing the model's sharp corners, I had thought, as you said, that the early versions of the prototype might have been sharp-edged and Kuhler had rounded them as part of the restyle. However I h ave been unable to find a picture of a prototype loco with the model's sharp edges, and finally decided Walthers must have just cheaped out on the production die. Can you provide a link to a photo of one of the pre-Kuhler HH locos with the boxlike-sharp edges? If so, I'd put it into my PHOTOS folder on the model.

Cheers,
-- David

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote :

DN,

Sorry I'm not able to open your attachment to identify the motor in your ALCo diesel switcher, but this is not a problem of yours; when I click on it, I'm sent directly to the Neo home page where I can't navigate from there. But to answer your question -- which I believe has been addressed here before -- yes, Walthers did have their own (2-axle) Power Truck for this model (which was also used for their Gas-Electric Car, their 4-wheel Birney Street Car, their later MU Cars and for StromBecKer's Rock Island EMC TA Unit), as produced from 1938, on. These pre-War Power Unit(s) used a 6 - 8 volt motor, of course. Two different power units could be bought for this switcher, U239 with a 13:1 gear ratio, and U240 with a 6:1 gear ratio.

The same 6 - 8 volt U240 Power Unit (but the U239 was discontinued) was used post-War in 1946 and by 1949 Walthers replaced the 6 -8 volt mechanism with the 12 volt U483 (A) Power Unit using a Pittman DC-60 motor. The U483 (B) was the power truck only, without sideframes and then there was a U483 (C) with special wiring to operate without a trailing truck. Also after 1940, Walthers produced a 3-axle U111 Power Unit in 1941 with the same 6 - 8 volt motor and a 13:1 (only) gear ratio, which could be used for StromBecKer's early E Units, although this has no relevance here. Walthers did produce a Rock Island Conversion Kit (5654) just for the StromBecKer EMC TA and even offered the StromBecKer TA body (Catalog # V139) @ $1.00. The 3 axle U111 Power Truck is not offered in 1946, but by 1949 it's reintroduced with a Pittman DC-71 motor as U530 (A) complete with side frames and trailing truck and as U530 (B) Power Truck only. without sideframes.

As for the ALCo model designation you used, Walthers never referred to this model by any specific ALCo model number -- They cataloged it as; "DIESEL SWITCHING LOCOMOTIVE -- ALCO TYPE" during the years they produced this model from 1938 to 1950 (excluding 1942, 43, 44 & 45, naturally). While ALCo most often referred to this HH (for "High Hood") Series locomotive as either their HH600 or their HH660, depending upon the model in question, they've also referred to it as HH600/HH660 as there's virtually no difference in the body design -- their indistinguishable (externally) from one another. Both Units, and there were two, were naturally aspirated (were not Turbocharged) and internally both Units used very similar Prime Mover (engine) blocks with the same cylinder size (12.5" x 13"); presumedly, the HH660 had a slightly longer stroke). The HH600 used an M&S (Mcintosh and Seymour) 531 prime mover producing 600 HP, while the HH660 used an S&M 538 prime mover producing 660 HP.

Just to letter these units correctly, I believe there were 79 HH600 Units made and 43 HH660 Units made, with a little over two dozen prototype railroads buying the HH600. While I can't find Don's reply anywhere, I remember him mentioning the New Haven Railroad (although I don't remember exactly what was said). The New Haven bought ALCo's first HH600 demonstrator Unit (ALCo roadnumber 600) as their (NYNY&H) roadnumber 0900. This may be what Don mentioned. There was a second HH600 demonstrator Unit also, oddly numbered as ALCo's # 600 (but with a body redesign) which was sold to the Santa Fe and renumbered as their # 2300. The ALCo Demo Unit # 601 was sold to the LV (as their # 105), the Demo Unit # 602 was sold to the B&M (as their # 1102) and the Demo Unit # 603 was sold to the DL&W (as their # 401). The New Haven's HH600 Demo Unit, built in July 1931, was different in appearance from all the rest, with the sides sloping outwards from top to bottom. The cab sides did not extend all the way down to the frame either. Some other roads that bought the HH600 were B&M, CNJ, BRC, CE&I, and NYC, to name a few, and yes the New Haven bought another 10 of these -- numbered 0911 through 0920. The New Haven also bought 10 HH660 units -- numbered 0921 through 0930; a few other roads that bought these include ACL, MILW, B&M, SP and Erie.

With this HH600 ALCo construction model having been produced through May 1939, the body design was changed in 1934 after the earlier units were built with sharp edged front hood corners to curved corners after employing Otto Kuhler to redesign it. It was restyled again in 1938 with further nose rounding. As Walthers' model of this ALCo Diesel Switching Locomotive has squared (sharp) front corners, it appears that it was modeled on the pre-Kuhler design, but with its cab sides extending to the frame, and with it having battery boxes just ahead of the cab, it appears to be modeled on the July 32 -- mid-1934 body design, but not after Otto Kuhler redesigned the body, nor does it appear to have been modeled on the ALCo Demo # 600 New Haven 0900 Unit. The HH660 was produced until July 1940, not that it really matters here.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/23/2015 1:09:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A while back, I came by a diecast Walthers ALCO HH660 - the one that resembles a charmingly crude 4-lb. lead brick. The body kit was initially released in 1938 (in bronze), so I've read. The postwar ones were lead alloy and apparently it took until about 1980 to sell off (or melt down) the last of them. Mine is powered by the motor-truck in the attached picture - with a bit of help from a drive band and a flexible coupling to the front truck (both now disintegrated).

I thought the loco was originally sold as an unpowered kit, so is this the original Walthers drive unit intended for it? Or did a different company market it to fit the Walthers body?

And don't you love the dress-snap electrical connector to the front pickups?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23760	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Attachments :

image-23760.jpg

image-23760(1).jpg

Hi all, Sorry for "dozing off" and not offering additional information earlier on this thread...The DL&W purchased most of the original pre-Kuhler designed "flat front" Alco HH 600s. They purchased one of the first prototypes and then six or seven of the first production units as did the B&M, as already mentioned. The attached prototype photographs are from George Eastwood's Fallen Flags website. About a decade ago, Withers Publishing produced an excellent softcover history on all of the Alco HH units with detailed production information.

Finding one of the original Walthers cast bronze models at a train show over a decade and a half ago was what sparked my interest in vintage HO collecting and modeling. I first noticed the model on the train show table only because it was a fairly accurate representation of the early DL&W locomotives which was of special interest to me as an Erie/DL&W/EL scale modeler. Because of the significant differences between the cast bronze and later lead model which I had already purchased from Walthers as an unpowered kit in the early 80s, I wasn't even 100% sure that the cast bronze unit was by Walthers, until several years later when I was deep into vintage HO and had bought old catalogs in the magazines. That bronze unit is probably still my favorite vintage HO locomotive.

As far as wall there's power trucks go there have been a number of different versions, first originating with the 6 V motor and passenger truck side frames.
Every few years Walthers upgraded the power truck and soon a number of different side frames were available.

I've been compiling a detailed year-by-year article on Walthers early powered units and power trucks, regarding construction, gear ratios etc. (and with some illustrations) and have to download that from the old PC which is no longer online and post it here in the files. It may take a few days! Also have to unpack some of the models and take photos as I now have a digital camera. Walthers offered the same two axle power truck with different side frames and gear ratios for powering the HH switcher, gas electric car, Birney, interurban's, etc. Construction of the power truck began with simple brass shapes and evolved into the diecast Zamac units of the late 40s and beyond.

My information was compiled from the annual Walther's HO catalogs (which I now have a complete collection of from the mid 30s into the early 50s), plus supplemental information from the Model Railroader advertisements and early Trade Topics reviews as well as examples of most of the power units and instructions etc. in my collection ,some of the latter which have to be scanned and sent to HOseeker.

I will also try to dig out the lead HH model which I soldered together in the early 80s and then laboriously "modernized" it by rounding all of the corners and mounting it on an upgraded Athearn switcher chassis.
That was about 95% complete, less paint and still had to work on correcting the body list.

I'm in the midst of writing a non-rail related book right now, and that plus all my regular activities is competing for my "spare" (LOL) time!

Jay W.

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?
Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 7:48:14 AM

David,

Ray W.

In a message dated 1/24/2015 12:02:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I sent a reply to your post eight hours ago, but it hasn't shown up yet. Now it's obsolete, and I'm going to rewrite and send it again. Please excuse if it double-posts later.

Thank you so much for all that good information on the Walthers ALCo kit and the prototype.

Sorry you could not see the power truck photo as an attachment. I have put a copy into my
Walthers ALCo HH600/660
album in the PHOTOS section, so you can look for it there.

Thanks for the clarification on Walthers' actual name for the kit. I knew the prototype HH-600 and 660 shared the same body, but somewhere I'd gotten the idea that Walthers used the HH-600 name.

Seeing the model's sharp corners, I had thought, as you said, that the early versions of the prototype might have been sharp-edged and Kuhler had rounded them as part of the restyle. However I h ave been unable to find a picture of a prototype loco with the model's sharp edges, and finally decided Walthers must have just cheaped out on the production die. Can you provide a link to a photo of one of the pre-Kuhler HH locos with the boxlike-sharp edges? If so, I'd put it into my PHOTOS folder on the model.

Cheers,
-- David

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote :

DN,

Sorry I'm not able to open your attachment to identify the motor in your ALCo diesel switcher, but this is not a problem of yours; when I click on it, I'm sent directly to the Neo home page where I can't navigate from there. But to answer your question -- which I believe has been addressed here before -- yes, Walthers did have their own (2-axle) Power Truck for this model (which was also used for their Gas-Electric Car, their 4-wheel Birney Street Car, their later MU Cars and for StromBecKer's Rock Island EMC TA Unit), as produced from 1938, on. These pre-War Power Unit(s) used a 6 - 8 volt motor, of course. Two different power units could be bought for this switcher, U239 with a 13:1 gear ratio, and U240 with a 6:1 gear ratio.

The same 6 - 8 volt U240 Power Unit (but the U239 was discontinued) was used post-War in 1946 and by 1949 Walthers replaced the 6 -8 volt mechanism with the 12 volt U483 (A) Power Unit using a Pittman DC-60 motor. The U483 (B) was the power truck only, without sideframes and then there was a U483 (C) with special wiring to operate without a trailing truck. Also after 1940, Walthers produced a 3-axle U111 Power Unit in 1941 with the same 6 - 8 volt motor and a 13:1 (only) gear ratio, which could be used for StromBecKer's early E Units, although this has no relevance here. Walthers did produce a Rock Island Conversion Kit (5654) just for the StromBecKer EMC TA and even offered the StromBecKer TA body (Catalog # V139) @ $1.00. The 3 axle U111 Power Truck is not offered in 1946, but by 1949 it's reintroduced with a Pittman DC-71 motor as U530 (A) complete with side frames and trailing truck and as U530 (B) Power Truck only. without sideframes.

As for the ALCo model designation you used, Walthers never referred to this model by any specific ALCo model number -- They cataloged it as; "DIESEL SWITCHING LOCOMOTIVE -- ALCO TYPE" during the years they produced this model from 1938 to 1950 (excluding 1942, 43, 44 & 45, naturally). While ALCo most often referred to this HH (for "High Hood") Series locomotive as either their HH600 or their HH660, depending upon the model in question, they've also referred to it as HH600/HH660 as there's virtually no difference in the body design -- their indistinguishable (externally) from one another. Both Units, and there were two, were naturally aspirated (were not Turbocharged) and internally both Units used very similar Prime Mover (engine) blocks with the same cylinder size (12.5" x 13"); presumedly, the HH660 had a slightly longer stroke). The HH600 used an M&S (Mcintosh and Seymour) 531 prime mover producing 600 HP, while the HH660 used an S&M 538 prime mover producing 660 HP.

Just to letter these units correctly, I believe there were 79 HH600 Units made and 43 HH660 Units made, with a little over two dozen prototype railroads buying the HH600. While I can't find Don's reply anywhere, I remember him mentioning the New Haven Railroad (although I don't remember exactly what was said). The New Haven bought ALCo's first HH600 demonstrator Unit (ALCo roadnumber 600) as their (NYNY&H) roadnumber 0900. This may be what Don mentioned. There was a second HH600 demonstrator Unit also, oddly numbered as ALCo's # 600 (but with a body redesign) which was sold to the Santa Fe and renumbered as their # 2300. The ALCo Demo Unit # 601 was sold to the LV (as their # 105), the Demo Unit # 602 was sold to the B&M (as their # 1102) and the Demo Unit # 603 was sold to the DL&W (as their # 401). The New Haven's HH600 Demo Unit, built in July 1931, was different in appearance from all the rest, with the sides sloping outwards from top to bottom. The cab sides did not extend all the way down to the frame either. Some other roads that bought the HH600 were B&M, CNJ, BRC, CE&I, and NYC, to name a few, and yes the New Haven bought another 10 of these -- numbered 0911 through 0920. The New Haven also bought 10 HH660 units -- numbered 0921 through 0930; a few other roads that bought these include ACL, MILW, B&M, SP and Erie.

With this HH600 ALCo construction model having been produced through May 1939, the body design was changed in 1934 after the earlier units were built with sharp edged front hood corners to curved corners after employing Otto Kuhler to redesign it. It was restyled again in 1938 with further nose rounding. As Walthers' model of this ALCo Diesel Switching Locomotive has squared (sharp) front corners, it appears that it was modeled on the pre-Kuhler design, but with its cab sides extending to the frame, and with it having battery boxes just ahead of the cab, it appears to be modeled on the July 32 -- mid-1934 body design, but not after Otto Kuhler redesigned the body, nor does it appear to have been modeled on the ALCo Demo # 600 New Haven 0900 Unit. The HH660 was produced until July 1940, not that it really matters here.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/23/2015 1:09:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A while back, I came by a diecast Walthers ALCO HH660 - the one that resembles a charmingly crude 4-lb. lead brick. The body kit was initially released in 1938 (in bronze), so I've read. The postwar ones were lead alloy and apparently it took until about 1980 to sell off (or melt down) the last of them. Mine is powered by the motor-truck in the attached picture - with a bit of help from a drive band and a flexible coupling to the front truck (both now disintegrated).

I thought the loco was originally sold as an unpowered kit, so is this the original Walthers drive unit intended for it? Or did a different company market it to fit the Walthers body?

And don't you love the dress-snap electrical connector to the front pickups?

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23761	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Hey David,

Funny description of the loco, and yes, I do like the snap connectors. Easy to get, don’t have to unscrew anything, they work.

Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23762	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Hi, Willard, and All, Adding to your good point, the use of dress snaps for freightcar brake wheels was not limited to imaginative modelers: several manufacturers in the pre-WWII era actually included them as part of their early kits! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23763	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Willard, Dave, DN, et all,

As a sidekick of Methuselah, or maybe it was, Bram Stoker, I have seen a number of changes. Money tight? How about putting three boys through college, at the same time, on a moderate salary. I was buying Life-Like Santa Fe single power truck diesels, at that time. Mostly used. By kids I suppose, I don’t know whether they threw them at each other, or tried to eat them. I was ‘fixing’ them up, but found each advance required a bigger hammer.

Since I couldn’t buy anything, every throwaway item was scrutinized, for possible application to my junky locos. Not knowing any better, I have found that paper clips can replace motor brushes. Every shaped thing was looked over, and saved. I have used those large roofing washers for fixing broken cab roofs and other metal needs.

Lately, being flushed with coin, I spotted a line of Single Malt Scotch tasters, in cardboard tubes, well, I knew the value of those tubes (silos, horizontal & vertical tanks) and the Scotch was pretty good too. I congratulated myself on this find.

However, using snaps for drive coupling connections has never occurred to me. Willard, are you the one to elucidate me on that matter?

Sorry about the length of this.

Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23764	From: river_dweller_ohio	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

Attachments :

___bronze_steam (4).JPG

___bronze_steam (3).JPG

___bronze_steam (2).JPG

___bronze_steam (1).JPG

Hello Group.

I recently came in possession of some miscellaneous parts. I have been able to identify everything, except for what is either a bronze or brass steam locomotive parts unit. It has no pilot or trailing truck, and the two center sets of drivers are blind. It did not come with a motor or tender. There is a small stamping in the body casting, as well as on the frame. It's very hard to read, but almost looks like it might say "Fritz", but I am definitely not sure on that. Please take a look at the attached photos, and see if anyone can help me identify this piece. If anyone needs additional information, I can provide it.

Thanks in advance.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23765	From: willard seehorn	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps

Dennis,

I wish I were, but that line got a "hunh?" from me too. Perhaps whoever posted it will amplify.

Willard

-----Original Message-----
From: "'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO]"
Sent: Jan 24, 2015 3:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

<snip>

However, using snaps for drive coupling connections has never occurred to me. Willard, are you the one to elucidate me on that matter?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23766	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive [4 Attachments]

Well,

Here is where my being involved with model trains since like 1949 (age 6) is really gonna be of assistance. I can guarantee that this a definitely a something-8-something.

Boy, am I sharp or what?

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 3:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive [4 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from river_dweller_ohio@... [vintageHO] included below]

Hello Group.

Thanks in advance.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23767	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive [4 Attachments]

It is a Knapp or early Red Ball (Bowser) 4-8-2. I've owned and run one since the late 1940's. Remotered it about 15 years ago. Fritz was the first name of the die maker. Look at the HO Seeker web site for more information. http://hoseeker.net/ >> http://hoseeker.net/gallery/index.php?album=hotrains3%2Fknapp for piuctures of a complete locomotive.

Garry Spear

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 4:31 PM, river_dweller_ohio@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from river_dweller_ohio@... [vintageHO] included below]
Hello Group.

I recently came in possession of some miscellaneous parts. I have been able to identify everything, except for what is either a bronze or brass steam locomotive parts unit. It has no pilot or trailing truck, and the two center sets of drivers are blind. It did not come with a motor or tender. There is a small stamping in the body casting, as well as on the frame. It's very hard to read, but almost looks like it might say "Fritz", but I am definitely not sure on that. Please take a look at the attached photos, and see if anyone can help me identify this piece. If anyone needs additional information, I can provide it.

Thanks in advance.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23768	From: luvprr2003	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

Very probably the remains of a Knapp Mountain that was/is brass. It was what predated Bowser (see Bowser history on line). The center drivers were blind, and the mysterious name "Fritz" has been identified some time ago as the designer (or that of a person closely associated with the production) of that Knapp product.

Art W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23769	From: luvprr2003	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

The loco identified in the photos is not a Knapp product but of a Winton Allegheny. Somebody slipped up.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23770	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

On 1/24/2015 6:23 PM, luvprr@... [vintageHO] wrote:

The loco identified in the photos is not a Knapp product but of a Winton Allegheny. Somebody slipped up.

So your saying the boiler does not go with the chassis?

on

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23771	From: Riverboy	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

No. The boiler and chassis mate up perfectly. It's just missing the pilot and trailing trucks. Well, and the motor, tender, and probably some other things.

Tod

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 8:08 PM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

On 1/24/2015 6:23 PM, luvprr@... [vintageHO] wrote:

The loco identified in the photos is not a Knapp product but of a Winton Allegheny. Somebody slipped up.

So your saying the boiler does not go with the chassis?

on

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23772	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive [4 Attachments]

Tod,

Being at the disadvantage again, of not being able to see the attachment, I'd need to ask if this model has one single straight frame or has two frames with one being articulated. As you describe "two sets of CENTER drivers," it seems to appear that it has a single frame, with a flanged set of drivers outside of each end of these two center sets of drivers making for what now would be a "0-8-0" with the missing front and rear trucks. If these bronze or brass steam locomotive parts are cast rather than formed, there's good chance that it's a Knapp 4-8-2 Mountain. It could also be an original Bowser (of Redlands, CA) Mountain as I believe Bill Bowser continued to use the Knapp inventory he bought until this was used up, which could have also had the "Fritz" stamping in the boiler. If the drivers are spoked however, this could point more to a Knapp as I don't believe Bill Bowser received many drivers in the inventory; he needed to manufacture them, which turned out to be scullin disk drivers. It certainly is not a Red Ball model though and unless it has two sets of drivers and two frames, it couldn't be a Winton Allegheny, but like I said, I'm unable to view it to see if it's articulated (having two jointed/hinged frames) or not. If you care to elaborate with any additional information -- as you said you could -- it can only serve to help identify it.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/24/2015 4:32:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello Group.

I recently came in possession of some miscellaneous parts. I have been able to identify everything, except for what is either a bronze or brass steam locomotive parts unit. It has no pilot or trailing truck, and the two center sets of drivers are blind. It did not come with a motor or tender. There is a small stamping in the body casting, as well as on the frame. It's very hard to read, but almost looks like it might say "Fritz", but I am definitely not sure on that. Please take a look at the attached photos, and see if anyone can help me identify this piece. If anyone needs additional information, I can provide it.

Thanks in advance.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23773	From: Riverboy	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

Hi Ray.

It's definitely not articulated, and the drivers are spoked. The boiler is definitely cast.

Tod

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 8:56 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Tod,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/24/2015 4:32:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hello Group.

I recently came in possession of some miscellaneous parts. I have been able to identify everything, except for what is either a bronze or brass steam locomotive parts unit. It has no pilot or trailing truck, and the two center sets of drivers are blind. It did not come with a motor or tender. There is a small stamping in the body casting, as well as on the frame. It's very hard to read, but almost looks like it might say "Fritz", but I am definitely not sure on that. Please take a look at the attached photos, and see if anyone can help me identify this piece. If anyone needs additional information, I can provide it.

Thanks in advance.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23774	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

On 1/24/2015 7:14 PM, Riverboy river_dweller_ohio@... [vintageHO] wrote:

No. The boiler and chassis mate up perfectly. It's just missing the pilot and trailing trucks. Well, and the motor, tender, and probably some other things.

Tod

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 8:08 PM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

On 1/24/2015 6:23 PM, luvprr@... [vintageHO] wrote:

The loco identified in the photos is not a Knapp product but of a Winton Allegheny. Somebody slipped up.

So your saying the boiler does not go with the chassis?

on

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

So then it couldn't be the Allegeheny, that was an articulated

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23775	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive [4 Attachments]

Hi Ray W., Tod C.D. and All, I'm finally home and had a chance to view the photographs. Agree with Gary S. that Todd's locomotive is the early Knapp Mountain. The drivers are spoked but another key indicator is the simplified Knapp valve gear. Todd, if you search Knapp Mountain from our Vintage HO home page, you will find a discussion that many of us had several years ago on the differences between Knapp and the modifications that Bill Bowser incorporated after the war.

One of us may be able to locate spares for the pilot and trailing trucks you need, and I believe the upgraded early Bowser motor will work and they can be found if you wish to keep the locomotive close to original. If you need the tender those cast brass beauties can be found as well. A search of our photo section here will find examples of both – check Jim Heckard's files first.

Lastly, there was an informative history of Bowser at www.Railstop.com including an interview with Bill Bowser that identified the many challenges Bowser faced to bring his version of that locomotive it back into production in the late 1940s. I can't seem to find it right now and may have to check the Internet archive.

Congratulations on a great find of a pioneering HO Scale locomotive and good luck on its restoration. Have a good evening. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23776	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Tenshodo PRR F7A/B set

H'lo All...in the course of providing what information I can to a lady sorting out her late father's collection, i.e. what loco is that, and what box belongs to it...I am looking baffled...in two gold boxes indicative of early Tenshodo, is what appears to be a factory-painted Pennsy F-7A/B set. No doubt that it's an F7...has the longitudinal grille slots behind the horns, and at the same position on the B-unit. Also has the twin rows of roof antennae. Now according to Dan's Guide, no such animal...PFM didn't bring in any PRR F7's, only FT's and F9's. PFM did bring in 12 F7 kits, but I doubt that the generic F7 kit would have had the characteristic PRR antennae. Several explanations come to mind, but in the first instance, the combined group wisdom of vintageHO and brasscollectors may be able to tell us if this is simply a missing entry from Dan's marathon compilation. It looks the goods to me....I have pics on an eBay message...getting them off and to the Yahoo groups eludes me at the moment....

Cheers, thanks in anticipation, Russ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23777	From: Riverboy	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

Great! I want to thank everyone for all the help. That's why I love this group. It would be an interesting and (somewhat?) historic to restore, but to be honest, I really won't have the time for such an adventurous project. Just like everyone else, I have my project burners full. I guess I should start looking for a good home for this piece with someone who can restore it to it's former beauty. For a very early locomotive, it looks really nice when complete.

Thanks again everyone for all the help. I would never have figured it out by myself, although I was sort of leaning toward Bowser or Varney.

Tod

On Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:20 AM, "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23778	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

Tod,

Thanks goes to Garry S. for correctly identifying this and to Jay W. for confirming Garry's I.D. Without my being able to see it, with everything you kept adding on it to the questions I posed, it was undoubtedly looking more and more like a Knapp, as I first indicated. You were not far wrong when you thought it might be a Bowser product as one thing you still may not be aware of, and one thing we never actually said here, is that Bill Bowser bought out Knapp's 4-8-2 cast brass/bronze Mountain. As I'm sure you saw my reply stating that Bill Bowser bought up Knapp's inventory, which suggested that Bowser continued to manufacture this same model. One major feature that tells the cast brass Knapp Mountain apart from the similar Bowser Mountain is the drivers -- being spoked on the Knapp model (aside from the "Fritz" imprint). Bowser found it next to impossible for him to reproduce these drivers with the machinery he was using and found that drilling holes in the drivers to create Scullen Disk drivers was a cinch to manufacture.

We're always glad to help with identifying models, but quite often even much more information on these subjects can be found in the archives on these subjects. As Jay W. mentioned, there was a comprehensive history of Bowser on www.Railstop.com, with an interview with Bill Bower, but besides that, I thought much of that discussion had drifted over to this forum as a discussion. Without your having either of the engine trucks though, you could not have even known this was a 4-8-2 Mountain, although you did suspect it being a Bowser product, but not for any specific reason. About the only thing this model has in common with Varney is that it's cast brass.bronze. There's a wealth of information that can be found in the archives here, which I know would amaze you.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:13:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Great! I want to thank everyone for all the help. That's why I love this group. It would be an interesting and (somewhat?) historic to restore, but to be honest, I really won't have the time for such an adventurous project. Just like everyone else, I have my project burners full. I guess I should start looking for a good home for this piece with someone who can restore it to it's former beauty. For a very early locomotive, it looks really nice when complete.

Thanks again everyone for all the help. I would never have figured it out by myself, although I was sort of leaning toward Bowser or Varney.

Tod

On Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:20 AM, "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Ray W., Tod C.D. and All, I'm finally home and had a chance to view the photographs. Agree with Gary S. that Todd's locomotive is the early Knapp Mountain. The drivers are spoked but another key indicator is the simplified Knapp valve gear. Todd, if you search Knapp Mountain from our Vintage HO home page, you will find a discussion that many of us had several years ago on the differences between Knapp and the modifications that Bill Bowser incorporated after the war.

One of us may be able to locate spares for the pilot and trailing trucks you need, and I believe the upgraded early Bowser motor will work and they can be found if you wish to keep the locomotive close to original. If you need the tender those cast brass beauties can be found as well. A search of our photo section here will find examples of both – check Jim Heckard's files first.

Lastly, there was an informative history of Bowser at www.Railstop.com including an interview with Bill Bowser that identified the many challenges Bowser faced to bring his version of that locomotive it back into production in the late 1940s. I can't seem to find it right now and may have to check the Internet archive.

Congratulations on a great find of a pioneering HO Scale locomotive and good luck on its restoration. Have a good evening. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23779	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Tenshodo PRR F7A/B set

On 1/25/2015 3:34 AM, Russ Shiel rshiel01@... [vintageHO] wrote:

H'lo All...in the course of providing what information I can to a lady sorting out her late father's collection, i.e. what loco is that, and what box belongs to it...I am looking baffled...in two gold boxes indicative of early Tenshodo, is what appears to be a factory-painted Pennsy F-7A/B set. No doubt that it's an F7...has the longitudinal grille slots behind the horns, and at the same position on the B-unit. Also has the twin rows of roof antennae. Now according to Dan's Guide, no such animal...PFM didn't bring in any PRR F7's, only FT's and F9's. PFM did bring in 12 F7 kits, but I doubt that the generic F7 kit would have had the characteristic PRR antennae. Several explanations come to mind, but in the first instance, the combined group wisdom of vintageHO and brasscollectors may be able to tell us if this is simply a missing entry from Dan's marathon compilation. It looks the goods to me....I have pics on an eBay message...getting them off and to the Yahoo groups eludes me at the moment....

Cheers, thanks in anticipation, Russ

I don't have documentation, but according to my notes, PFM DID have the F-7 in both maroon and green.

Otherwise, International did have the F-7 before PFM did, but I don't know if they had any painted units.

The antenna very well could have been added by the original owner.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23780	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Tenshodo PRR F7A/B set

In a message dated 1/25/2015 8:59:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

On 1/25/2015 3:34 AM, Russ Shiel rshiel01@... [vintageHO] wrote:

H'lo All...in the course of providing what information I can to a lady sorting out her late father's collection, i.e. what loco is that, and what box belongs to it...I am looking baffled...in two gold boxes indicative of early Tenshodo, is what appears to be a factory-painted Pennsy F-7A/B set. No doubt that it's an F7...has the longitudinal grille slots behind the horns, and at the same position on the B-unit. Also has the twin rows of roof antennae. Now according to Dan's Guide, no such animal...PFM didn't bring in any PRR F7's, only FT's and F9's. PFM did bring in 12 F7 kits, but I doubt that the generic F7 kit would have had the characteristic PRR antennae. Several explanations come to mind, but in the first instance, the combined group wisdom of vintageHO and brasscollectors may be able to tell us if this is simply a missing entry from Dan's marathon compilation. It looks the goods to me....I have pics on an eBay message...getting them off and to the Yahoo groups eludes me at the moment....

Cheers, thanks in anticipation, Russ
I don't have documentation, but according to my notes, PFM DID have the F-7 in both maroon and green.

Otherwise, International did have the F-7 before PFM did, but I don't know if they had any painted units.

The antenna very well could have been added by the original owner.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23781	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Tenshodo PRR F7A/B set

Yes, International Model Products offered their F-7 (A & B) either as an unpainted kit or as factory built, painted and lettered for their finished "Kustom-Bilts" line. At first, they were painted in six road schemes; ATSF, NYC, PRR, CP, GN and CN. Several years later (by 1956) they added three new road names -- UP, ERIE and CNJ -- but eliminated CP and CN. As they only illustrated the Great Northern, and as there's no mention in any IMP catalogs of the PRR scheme having the twin antennae, it's unclear if the Pennsy models came this way or not. As Tenshodo built the models for IMP, a good guess is that both producers offered them at the same time, but as Don said, apparently before PFM brought theirs out. I tend to doubt that IMP (or Tenshodo) would have installed the PRR's antennae just for this road, especially as they're all priced the same with no consideration for this extra work. I too believe the modeler installed them after buying them.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/25/2015 8:59:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

On 1/25/2015 3:34 AM, Russ Shiel rshiel01@... [vintageHO] wrote:

H'lo All...in the course of providing what information I can to a lady sorting out her late father's collection, i.e. what loco is that, and what box belongs to it...I am looking baffled...in two gold boxes indicative of early Tenshodo, is what appears to be a factory-painted Pennsy F-7A/B set. No doubt that it's an F7...has the longitudinal grille slots behind the horns, and at the same position on the B-unit. Also has the twin rows of roof antennae. Now according to Dan's Guide, no such animal...PFM didn't bring in any PRR F7's, only FT's and F9's. PFM did bring in 12 F7 kits, but I doubt that the generic F7 kit would have had the characteristic PRR antennae. Several explanations come to mind, but in the first instance, the combined group wisdom of vintageHO and brasscollectors may be able to tell us if this is simply a missing entry from Dan's marathon compilation. It looks the goods to me....I have pics on an eBay message...getting them off and to the Yahoo groups eludes me at the moment....

Cheers, thanks in anticipation, Russ
I don't have documentation, but according to my notes, PFM DID have the F-7 in both maroon and green.

Otherwise, International did have the F-7 before PFM did, but I don't know if they had any painted units.

The antenna very well could have been added by the original owner.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23782	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Tenshodo PRR F7A/B set

You don’t have to get the photos off the eBay, just copy the url of the eBay auction or the item # nad post whichever you have. Then we can open the auction and see the photos used.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 10:01 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tenshodo PRR F7A/B set

In a message dated 1/25/2015 8:59:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

On 1/25/2015 3:34 AM, Russ Shiel rshiel01@... [vintageHO] wrote:

H'lo All...in the course of providing what information I can to a lady sorting out her late father's collection, i.e. what loco is that, and what box belongs to it...I am looking baffled...in two gold boxes indicative of early Tenshodo, is what appears to be a factory-painted Pennsy F-7A/B set. No doubt that it's an F7...has the longitudinal grille slots behind the horns, and at the same position on the B-unit. Also has the twin rows of roof antennae. Now according to Dan's Guide, no such animal...PFM didn't bring in any PRR F7's, only FT's and F9's. PFM did bring in 12 F7 kits, but I doubt that the generic F7 kit would have had the characteristic PRR antennae. Several explanations come to mind, but in the first instance, the combined group wisdom of vintageHO and brasscollectors may be able to tell us if this is simply a missing entry from Dan's marathon compilation. It looks the goods to me....I have pics on an eBay message...getting them off and to the Yahoo groups eludes me at the moment....
Cheers, thanks in anticipation, Russ
I don't have documentation, but according to my notes, PFM DID have the F-7 in both maroon and green.

Otherwise, International did have the F-7 before PFM did, but I don't know if they had any painted units.

The antenna very well could have been added by the original owner.

Don

--
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23783	From: anypaddler	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive [4 Attachments]

Jay W. wrote:

< www.Railstop. com

--------------------------------------

All I get is "Under Construction."

Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23784	From: anypaddler	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Tenshodo PRR F7A/B set

Russ wrote:

< No doubt that it's an F7...has the longitudinal grille slots behind the horns

------------------------------

That's an F-3 (or maybe even an F-2, which the PRR didn't buy); they're the dynamic brake cooling grids. F-7s had fans in that location.

Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23785	From: rockrailsnsnow	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Mechanism ID help please

Attachments :

P1258169.JPG

P1258168.JPG

Can anyone identify the make of this mechanism?

Thanks!

Michael

Boalsburg, PA

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23786	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Mechanism ID help please [2 Attachments]

HOBBYTOWN OF BOSTON !!

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 25, 2015, at 1:00 PM, prrk4@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

[Attachment(s) from prrk4@... [vintageHO] included below]

Can anyone identify the make of this mechanism?

Thanks!

Michael
Boalsburg, PA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23787	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Mechanism ID help please [2 Attachments]

On 1/25/2015 1:00 PM, prrk4@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Can anyone identify the make of this mechanism?

Thanks!

Michael

Boalsburg, PA

I;m not going to be as emphatic as Mike was, But I would concur, a Hobbytown Universal F unit chassis, probably mid to late 60's or newer.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23788	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive

It ain’t no Allegheny.

Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23789	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Mechanism ID help please

A rather later Hobbytown as it has all brass wheel sets and a flywheel. I’d place it around the later 70’s – early 80’s. I remember Cal replacing the plastic wheels of some of his units with insulated brass wheels in the 80’s so he could add wipers when he went to Dynatrol command control. About the only upgrade left was to the universal jointed drive shafts, which are still available today if you would want to upgrade, and, at the very end of Hobbytown production, those very rare drives with the can motors.

Nice piece.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 5:48 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mechanism ID help please

On 1/25/2015 1:00 PM, prrk4@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Can anyone identify the make of this mechanism?

Thanks!

Michael
Boalsburg, PA

I;m not going to be as emphatic as Mike was, But I would concur, a Hobbytown Universal F unit chassis, probably mid to late 60's or newer.

Don

--
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23790	From: david_helber	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Thanks to Jay and Ray (the W twins) for the prototype photos. I added the Lackawanna first-version pic to my PHOTOS section album on the ALCo switchers.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23791	From: david_helber	Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps

I went to a train show this weekend and found AristoCraft's '50s era brass model of the locomotive TEXAS, which I had to have to chase my Mantua GENERAL. Oddly enough, when I got it home, I found that the wire from the tender motor connected to the loco frame by a small, blued (waaaait for it) ... dress snap!

The male side was permanently mounted to the rear of the frame, and it looks like the manufacturer's original arrangement. Anybody know for sure?

-- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23792	From: rockrailsnsnow	Date: 1/26/2015
Subject: Re: Mechanism ID help please

Thanks for all the responses and information. I thought it was Hobbytown, but wasn't sure. It does run very smoothly!

It's the power frame under an Athearn shell, part of a vintage Athearn NP NCL consist I am selling. Will post it here if we are allowed FS posts.

Michael

Boalsburg, PA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23793	From: david_helber	Date: 1/26/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Dang. I posted this message in "Re: Dress Snaps" thinking it would become part of this conversation, but it didn't; so please forgive the double-post.

I went to a train show this weekend and found AristoCraft's '50s-era brass model of the locomotive TEXAS, which I had to have to chase my Mantua GENERAL. Oddly enough, when I got it home, I found that the wire from the tender motor connects to the loco frame by a small, blued (waaaait for it) ... dress snap!

The male side was permanently soldered to the rear of the frame, and it looks like the manufacturer's original arrangement. Anybody know for sure?

-- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23794	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/26/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive [4 Attachments]

Hello Ralph B., optimistically I thought the site would still be available. I will check the Internet Archive project later to see if it is available there. I hope so! Sorry for the inconvenience. Will let all know if I find it.
Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23795	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/26/2015
Subject: Re: Unidentified Bronze(?) Steam Locomotive [4 Attachments]

Hello Ralph B., and all, I was able to find the Bowser history on the Internet archive, which detail some of the changes that Bowser had to undertake in order to remanufacture the mountain after buying the original rights and some part from Knapp. Here is the link to the article and interview originally at Railstop.com and now on the Internet Archive – "Wayback Machine." Jay W.

https://web.archive/web/20020609064556/http://www.railstop.com/History/Bowser/BowserHistory.asp

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23796	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

David,

I don't think the dress snap on the AristoCraft Texas was original. I used to collect those AristoCraft locos and the Texas model I owned had a wire from the top motor brush to the tender where there was a small tab on a brass washer right at the screw that the drawbar attached to. And I am not sure that was "factory" specification since mine was used when I bought it. The Texas had several problems operationally, but was a true collectors item in that it was part of the transition of 'New One' models from die-cast to Brass Locos (brought in under the Tenshodo name.) In the early 60s there were several articles in RMC and other magazines on improving the operation of those early imports and dress-snap connectors were in one of the article. I still use them where I can because they are very effective and cheaper than the micro-connectors from the electronics industry.

Matt Coleman

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <dnhelber@...> wrote :

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23797	From: anypaddler	Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Bowser article was (Unidentified Bronze(?)....)

Jay W wrote:

< https://web.archive./web/20020609064556/http://www.railstop.com/History/Bowser/BowserHistory.asp

------------------------------

After some fiddling, I found that three letters were missing in that URL; it should be:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020609064556/http://www.railstop.com/History/Bowser/BowserHistory.asp

I think I posted some time ago that I picked up a Bowser K-11 Pacific, assembled, for $10 at a train show. So far I've only bench tested it, but it does run.

Ralph B

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23798	From: the_plainsman	Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Bowser article was (Unidentified Bronze(?)....)

Thanks for catching and correct that, Ralph! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23799	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Walters HH 660

For sale: Walthers HH660 lead alloy body casting, and a new-in-box Walthers power truck (DC60): $20. PayPal or check only.

Caution: the body alone weighs 12 oz! Please contact off list only.

Denny

danspachmd at gmail dot com

Denny S. Anspach, MD

Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23800	From: david_helber	Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

Thanks for the information, Matt. I guess the snap was added by a previous owner.

A wire goes from the dress snap soldered to the rear of the loco frame, to a washer-with-tab at the hot brush of the tender motor. The other brush is grounded to the tender frame. The headlight bulb is grounded to the loco body and its hot wire comes out the back of the cab to attach somewhere to the tender. It is not connected on mine. Perhaps it went to the tab on the drawbar screw's washer which you mentioned. That washer is missing on my tender. But the wire seems too long for that, as though it were to go into the tender all the way to the grounded motor brush.

Since a previous owner apparently added the dress snap as a quick disconnect feature, I decided to make the headlight wire quick disconnectible too, by adding a GH Products mini plug, an ancient and forgotten device that I (as a former GH employee) still happen to have several of. I think I've figured a way to add it without permanently altering the model.

-- David

====================
---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <mattjcoleman@...> wrote :

David,

Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23801	From: david_helber	Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

After reading Matt's message, I went through most of the Model Railroader pages that came up when I searched "dress snap." Some of the uses nobody has mentioned were:

- attaching trucks to frames,
- electrically linking the sections of portable layouts,
- connectors to carry lighting current between passenger cars,
- making a shunt between Athearn trucks and motor,
- roof ventilators for buildings (I didn't really get how that was to work),
- attaching the cab and/or boiler to the frame of a steam loco,
and several mentions of attaching trolley poles or pantagraphs, so that if they got hung up, they'd pop off without destroying themselves or ripping down feet of catenary.

I also found the mysterious power-shaft usage that was mentioned earlier. It's easier to cite than explain, so check out MR's Sept. 1949 issue, pages 11 and 12.

Cheers,
David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23802	From: Fred Krause	Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Floqual & Polly Scale Paints

Hello Group,

It has be awhile since since I have posted any thing to this group.

For your information I still have a large selection of both Testors Floquil and Polly Scale paints, 57 Floquil railroad Colors, and 97 different Polly Scale railroad colors. If you are interesting additional information please contact me.

Thank You

Fred

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23803	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

The "snap" in Central Valley's Snap On Bolster kit was the female portion of an ordinary dress snap, mated to a very snazzy turned brass piece that screwed into the threaded hole in the CV truck bolster.

Fred Holladay

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:42:42 -0800
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

After reading Matt's message, I went through most of the Model Railroader pages that came up when I searched "dress snap." Some of the uses nobody has mentioned were:

I also found the mysterious power-shaft usage that was mentioned earlier. It's easier to cite than explain, so check out MR's Sept. 1949 issue, pages 11 and 12.

Cheers,
David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23804	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Re: dress snaps (was) ID for Ancient HH660 Power Unit?

David,

Thanks for your follow up remarks on the dress snap on the Texas. It sounds like you have one that a previous owner put some thought and work into. And this discussion has made me think about going back to that method for some of my older brass restorations. And I remember the GH Mini plug! I think I still have one in the package somewhere in my storage chaos.

And thanks for the second message with the other applications of dress snaps. Some of those are ones I would have never thought of ever.

Matt

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <dnhelber@...> wrote :

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23805	From: willard seehorn	Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Sheepscot Scale Products Freight and Baggage Building # 1010

I picked up a Sheepscot Scale Products Freight and Baggage Building Kit # 1010 at a train show.

I thought it had instructions, but the were just templates for a couple of walls. It's a "true" craftsman kit: plans and a bunch of sticks.

Sheepscot is still in business, but he sold the rights to the kit to B.E.S.T. trains and didn't have any copies of the instructions. B.E.S.T. trains has instructions for their laser cut version of the kit, but not the original stick build version. Using those instructions I think I know what the building should look like (the kit box had lost its cover photo), but the instructions don't apply..

While I might be able to invent my own plans and instructions I'm lazy. Anyone have a copy of the plans for this kit they could scan/copy for me? I'll pay postage/copying fees.

I checked HOseeker, but didn't see any listing for Sheepscot.

Willard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23806	From: Dave Audley	Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Re: Floqual & Polly Scale Paints

Where do live?

Dave Audley

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 3:53 AM, "Fred Krause mbe4385@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hello Group,

It has be awhile since since I have posted any thing to this group.

Thank You

Fred

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23807	From: Fred Krause	Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Re: Floqual & Polly Scale Paints

Saint Charles Illinois

From: "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Floqual & Polly Scale Paints

Where do live?

Dave Audley

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 3:53 AM, "Fred Krause mbe4385@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hello Group,

It has be awhile since since I have posted any thing to this group.

Thank You

Fred

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23808	From: Dave Audley	Date: 1/29/2015
Subject: Re: Floqual & Polly Scale Paints

Thanks - can't ship to Canada.

Dave Audley

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 8:03 AM, "Fred Krause mbe4385@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Saint Charles Illinois

Where do live?

Dave Audley

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 3:53 AM, "Fred Krause mbe4385@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hello Group,

It has be awhile since since I have posted any thing to this group.

Thank You

Fred

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23809	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/29/2015
Subject: More tiny screws

While I was looking in eBay for the very tiny screw assortment I had bought a few weeks ago, I also found this of 1000 eyeglass repair screws and some related parts for under $5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141392963072

Maybe some would like to get a set? I did some hours ago and its already shipped to me.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23810	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 1/30/2015
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger production

H'lo All! In the absence of my Bowser catalogs (stored), and inability to find production dates in HO-Seeker's Bowser folder (inept), I seek group wisdom on production dates of the Challenger kit. I bought one in the '60's, if the memory still serves, but I think it had been in production for a while. This is for the same sifter of her late father's collection as for the Tenshodo F-3 aka F-7 I sought your collective advice on last week. Thanks in anticipation (again!)
Cheers, Russ

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23811	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 1/30/2015
Subject: ignore attachments

sorry folks! ignore the attached pics last message...I used the header from somebody else's post for vintageHO, didn't look to see if there were attachments...Chrs, Russ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23812	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 1/30/2015
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger production

Hi Russ,

As I only have a handful of Bowser catalogs, and as many of their catalogs were undated, it's difficult to know if the Challenger kit was produced in the 1960's or not, even if it were shown in the catalogs. Bowser first produce the Challenger in the very early 1950's. Besides the cast brass/bronze Mountain, this was another model I used to drool over in MR magazine as a kid, and I believe those issues I'm referring to were published in 1952. Bowser's Challenger ads may have already been included in 1951 MR's but I was still in Flyer S scale at that time so hadn't yet been looking at H0 advertisements then.

You could have bought a new "old" (1950's) stock kit when you bought yours, or you could have bought one from the '60's but I couldn't say what year. I have a Bowser of Redlands catalog, which of course includes the Challenger kit (@ $52.50, less tender) and which even includes a letter near the back page by Bill Bowser on "How to Build a Smooth Running Locomotive," but it's undated. Shows the manufacturers wanted the modelers to be successful in having their kits run to their (the modelers') expectations. More likely, yours was from a production run in the 1960's; I have a Bowser (Lew English) catalog dated Summer 1968 which includes the Challenger -- and @ $49.50, less tender (even cheaper than when first produced in CA) -- but this is not to say the Challenger was being produced in 1968 though. Just because it was "offered" in any particular year's catalog doesn't mean it was available or even in production, however the chance is still great that it was..

There were Bowser catalogs printed in 1974, 1975 and 1977 -- all containing the Challenger, but they were not being produced. They were discontinued during the mid 1970's and we couldn't buy one for no amount of money. For all we knew at that time, they were not to be produced any longer, just as the Penn Line Crusader was never produced again even though Bowser offered many of the parts for them right up into the 1970's. It appeared as though that was the end of this model ever being offered again, for all we knew. At around that same time (1975 -- 1977), I wanted to obtain another Challenger, but any used ones available at the time were commanding large sums of money, IF one could be found. Luckily, through the train meet/swap& sell circuit of those frequenting these shows, I learned that George, the owner of the large "Hobbies For Men" hobby shop in Beacon, NY at that time, was selling his personal Bowser Challenger model. At that time, "Hobbies For Men" was running multi-page ads in MR, similar to what AHC (America's Hobby Center) was doing; they were a huge discount retail hobby center in that era. While George didn't include his Challenger in any of his MR ads, needless to say, I left no moss grow under my feet and made a hasty trip to see him at his shop -- and buy his model.

Eventually, in the 1980's Bowser reissued the Challenger kits again (with the Pittman DC-71 motor) and continued them but this shows that just having it being included in a catalog does not necessarily mean it's in production. As for trying to date the Challenger to the manufacturer (Bill Bowser or Lewis English), going by the motor being used, Lew English's Challenger in his 1968 catalog shows it as still having the same large "Super Motor" that Bill Bowser included. Lew English's September 1975 Bowser catalog still illustrated the "Super Motor," even though that's immaterial since few to none were re-produced after they were sold out.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 1/30/2015 4:27:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

H'lo All! In the absence of my Bowser catalogs (stored), and inability to find production dates in HO-Seeker's Bowser folder (inept), I seek group wisdom on production dates of the Challenger kit. I bought one in the '60's, if the memory still serves, but I think it had been in production for a while. This is for the same sifter of her late father's collection as for the Tenshodo F-3 aka F-7 I sought your collective advice on last week. Thanks in anticipation (again!)
Cheers, Russ

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.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23813	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/30/2015
Subject: Re: More tiny screws

I bought em, Mike.

Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23814	From: river_dweller_ohio	Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Need Some More ID Help

Hello Guys.

It's me again. I have just posted an album of wood and paper passenger cars, and would like to know who manufactured them. There appear to be four different types. All are similar in construction with wood floors and roofs, and sides are paper/cardstock type material, and I believe the ends are paper as well.

I will greatly appreciate any help you fellow members can provide. Last time with the Knapp parts was great. This time I have no clue on what manufacturer(s) made these cars. Again, feel free to ask for additional information to aid in identifying them.

Thanks again.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23815	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Need Some More ID Help

One to scratch off is that the millwork for the streamlined cars is NOT Strombecker. I just compared two train set kits to it.

By the way, that Doodlebug is a nice variation that hasn't been seen since that model was produced. I appreciate the good views of it. It would be good to make one/some like it.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 31, 2015, at 6:27 PM, river_dweller_ohio@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> Hello Guys.
>
>
>
> It's me again. I have just posted an album of wood and paper passenger cars, and would like to know who manufactured them. There appear to be four different types. All are similar in construction with wood floors and roofs, and sides are paper/cardstock type material, and I believe the ends are paper as well.
>
>
>
> I will greatly appreciate any help you fellow members can provide. Last time with the Knapp parts was great. This time I have no clue on what manufacturer(s) made these cars. Again, feel free to ask for additional information to aid in identifying them.
>
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
>
>
> Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23816	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: mystery PRR Mikado

Attachments :

PRR 2-8-2.jpg

PRR 2-8-2 tender.jpg

H'lo All...a couple of steamer pics came to me for ID from the estate with the Tenshodo F units. One a Bowser Challenger instantly recognizable, but the attached eludes me. The Belpaire firebox on the 2-8-2 looks GN. It's lettered Pennsylvania. It looks to be diecast, drivers 2 & 3 unflanged. All my Penn Line, Varney, Bowser et al. literature is packed in a shipping container! Group opinions on maker and approximate vintage would be appreciated. Thanks again, Russ

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23817	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: mystery PRR Mikado [2 Attachments]

Russ,

I'm sure you're well aware, the Great Northern and the Pennsylvania were the two major users of the Belpaire firebox in this country. I've never known an American H0 die-cast model manufacturer to produce engine kits specifically for GN, although there might be one who escapes me right now. A Belpaire firebox on a GN 2-8-2 would look very similar to a PRR loco of the same wheel arrangement, so I'm not sure why you'd suspect it as being a GN model (and not consider it being PRR), when die-cast PRR models are well known. In all fairness though, when I saw my first Cary PRR N-2s (2-10-2) boiler back in the mid-1970's at a train meet, I thought it was produced as a GN boiler, but it came without a box and had no I.D. (yes, I bought it).

The model you have in question is a Lew English Bowser, which was produced with blind #2 & #3 drivers. They were produced by Lewis English at least by 1968 and probably earlier, although my earliest Bowser/English catalog is dated 1968 (i have nothing on this manufacturer any earlier). We know that Bill Bowser never produced any PRR style models; they were obtained by Lew English from Penn Line when he bought this manufacturer out in 1963.

While Penn Line produced this same die-cast PRR 2-8-2, all of their catalogs I have show flanged drivers on all driver sets. It appears that Lew English was the one to offer this kit with blind #2 and #3 drivers -- perhaps to increase his sales to more modelers having sharper track radii. Bowser (English) still manufactured the Mikado with blind drivers right through the 1970's.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 1:29:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

H'lo All...a couple of steamer pics came to me for ID from the estate with the Tenshodo F units. One a Bowser Challenger instantly recognizable, but the attached eludes me. The Belpaire firebox on the 2-8-2 looks GN. It's lettered Pennsylvania. It looks to be diecast, drivers 2 & 3 unflanged. All my Penn Line, Varney, Bowser et al. literature is packed in a shipping container! Group opinions on maker and approximate vintage would be appreciated. Thanks again, Russ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23818	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Attachments :

IMG_0643_1.jpg

IMG_0641_1.jpg

Side view and underside. Diecast, not brass? Chrs, Russ

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23819	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2 [2 Attachments]

Russ,

I'm not sure if this message of yours here is directed at me or not, or was just sent out to show more of this model for other members to view, but in any case, are you asking or telling whether this model is die-cast or not? As you must know by now, I'm unable to view these attachments, but your original post on this described it as die-cast. Are you seeing something else now that leads you to believe otherwise? As for "brass," Bowser (Lew English) first produced this model with a die-cast frame, but later offered it with a brass frame.

Ray

In a message dated 2/1/2015 3:19:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Side view and underside. Diecast, not brass? Chrs, Russ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23820	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: mystery PRR Mikado

It’s definitely a Pennsy, look at the cab roof. While Pennsy and GN Mike’s may resemble each other in the firebox area they each had different overall appearances. And Pennsy steam had very distinctive overall appearance that matches this loco perfectly.

My best guess would be a well detailed diecast model, likely to be a late Bowser model with the detail kit added.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2015 2:17 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] mystery PRR Mikado

Russ,

Ray Wetzel

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (1)

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent

· New Photos 21

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23821	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Need Some More ID Help

On 1/31/2015 6:27 PM, river_dweller_ohio@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Hello Guys.

It's me again. I have just posted an album of wood and paper passenger cars, and would like to know who manufactured them. There appear to be four different types. All are similar in construction with wood floors and roofs, and sides are paper/cardstock type material, and I believe the ends are paper as well.

I will greatly appreciate any help you fellow members can provide. Last time with the Knapp parts was great. This time I have no clue on what manufacturer(s) made these cars. Again, feel free to ask for additional information to aid in identifying them.

Thanks again.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

My first though on the two baggage cars was JC, but the doors are wrong. (The roof too, but that was easy to change)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/4259145201/in/set-72157603108685255

Walthers did a line of Cardstock cars at the very beginning, before the first metal crestline cars, but I don't have an example.

The streamliners I've never seen in cardstock. I thought at first Varney, but those sides were proto-printed celluloid sides
A couple examples.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/1980009111/in/set-72157603108685255/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/1980866948/in/set-72157603108685255/

During WW-II they made some shorty's of basically the same construction, but those sides were painted celluloid, not printed
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/2855019982/in/set-72157603108685255

Their heavyweights were card, but very limited, as shorty coach and combine and a 14 section pullman
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/5483368201/in/set-72157603108685255
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/4278069589/in/set-72157603108685255/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/4278069653/in/set-72157603108685255

I know this isn't much help but it's place to start, if for nothing more than to eliminate some possibilities.

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23822	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: mystery PRR Mikado

The Bowser models were available until early in this century. it was only within the last 10 years that were finally discontinued.

That model however looks like it had some extra detail applied. It appears to be a very nice piece.

Don

On 2/1/2015 2:17 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Russ,

I'm sure you're well aware, the Great Northern and the Pennsylvania were the two major users of the Belpaire firebox in this country. I've never known an American H0 die-cast model manufacturer to produce engine kits specifically for GN, although there might be one who escapes me right now. A Belpaire firebox on a GN 2-8-2 would look very similar to a PRR loco of the same wheel arrangement, so I'm not sure why you'd suspect it as being a GN model (and not consider it being PRR), when die-cast PRR models are well known. In all fairness though, when I saw my first Cary PRR N-2s (2-10-2) boiler back in the mid-1970's at a train meet, I thought it was produced as a GN boiler, but it came without a box and had no I.D. (yes, I bought it).

The model you have in question is a Lew English Bowser, which was produced with blind #2 & #3 drivers. They were produced by Lewis English at least by 1968 and probably earlier, although my earliest Bowser/English catalog is dated 1968 (i have nothing on this manufacturer any earlier). We know that Bill Bowser never produced any PRR style models; they were obtained by Lew English from Penn Line when he bought this manufacturer out in 1963.

While Penn Line produced this same die-cast PRR 2-8-2, all of their catalogs I have show flanged drivers on all driver sets. It appears that Lew English was the one to offer this kit with blind #2 and #3 drivers -- perhaps to increase his sales to more modelers having sharper track radii. Bowser (English) still manufactured the Mikado with blind drivers right through the 1970's.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 1:29:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

H'lo All...a couple of steamer pics came to me for ID from the estate with the Tenshodo F units. One a Bowser Challenger instantly recognizable, but the attached eludes me. The Belpaire firebox on the 2-8-2 looks GN. It's lettered Pennsylvania. It looks to be diecast, drivers 2 & 3 unflanged. All my Penn Line, Varney, Bowser et al. literature is packed in a shipping container! Group opinions on maker and approximate vintage would be appreciated. Thanks again, Russ

-- 
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23823	From: Riverboy	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Need Some More ID Help

The cars that have trucks and couplers, the dummy couplers are stamped Walthers, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, since you could buy and install any trucks or couplers you pleased. The trucks don't seem to have a manufacturer stamped on them anywhere. I'll look closer to make sure.

I was also thinking Varney at first, but found out about the celluloid sides.

Eliminating who it isn't actually is helpful too.

Tod

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 4:56 AM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

On 1/31/2015 6:27 PM, river_dweller_ohio@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Hello Guys.

It's me again. I have just posted an album of wood and paper passenger cars, and would like to know who manufactured them. There appear to be four different types. All are similar in construction with wood floors and roofs, and sides are paper/cardstock type material, and I believe the ends are paper as well.

I will greatly appreciate any help you fellow members can provide. Last time with the Knapp parts was great. This time I have no clue on what manufacturer(s) made these cars. Again, feel free to ask for additional information to aid in identifying them.

Thanks again.

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

My first though on the two baggage cars was JC, but the doors are wrong. (The roof too, but that was easy to change)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/4259145201/in/set-72157603108685255

Walthers did a line of Cardstock cars at the very beginning, before the first metal crestline cars, but I don't have an example.

The streamliners I've never seen in cardstock. I thought at first Varney, but those sides were proto-printed celluloid sides
A couple examples.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/1980009111/in/set-72157603108685255/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/1980866948/in/set-72157603108685255/

During WW-II they made some shorty's of basically the same construction, but those sides were painted celluloid, not printed
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/2855019982/in/set-72157603108685255

Their heavyweights were card, but very limited, as shorty coach and combine and a 14 section pullman
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/5483368201/in/set-72157603108685255
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/4278069589/in/set-72157603108685255/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/4278069653/in/set-72157603108685255

I know this isn't much help but it's place to start, if for nothing more than to eliminate some possibilities.

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23824	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2 [2 Attachments]

This loco has all the details of a Penn Line L-1 Mikado – they did produce the mechanisms with the middle 2 pair of drivers without flanges. Also with die cast frames and that plastic lead truck wheelset.

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23825	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Jim,

Good to know these details. If anyone knew about Penn Line I figured it would be you, even expecting you to comment sooner. As I mentioned, all my Penn Line catalogs show the Mikado with all drivers flanged, although I don't have each & every Penn Line catalog. I have to wonder now, when they started putting blind drivers on their engines -- or did they possibly just include photos of their models with all flanged drivers just for appearance sake in their catalogs (?).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:32:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This loco has all the details of a Penn Line L-1 Mikado – they did produce the mechanisms with the middle 2 pair of drivers without flanges. Also with die cast frames and that plastic lead truck wheelset.

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23826	From: oljoe	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Penn Line loco's did not have flanged inside drivers except for drivers on each end of the driver set.
Penn Line loco's, unlike a number of brass imports, could not and did not slide sideways
in the frame. The "fixed frame" mounting of flanged inner driver wheelsets would have
required almost impossible radius curves. I owned an Olympia brass PRR S2 (6-8-6) that had
the amazing and fully flanged sideways sliding wheelsets that allowed it to easily navigate 22"
radius curves. The siderod screws also had shoulders that permitted the sideways
movement on all inner driver wheelsets. I also mention that all driver wheelsets were
sprung vertically in their slots. Although I never tried it I suspect that the S2
could navigate 18" radius curves. The traction the loco had was nothing short of
amazing. It could pull every car I owned without complaint.

Joe O'Loughlin

On 2/1/2015 12:02 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Jim,

Good to know these details. If anyone knew about Penn Line I figured it would be you, even expecting you to comment sooner. As I mentioned, all my Penn Line catalogs show the Mikado with all drivers flanged, although I don't have each & every Penn Line catalog. I have to wonder now, when they started putting blind drivers on their engines -- or did they possibly just include photos of their models with all flanged drivers just for appearance sake in their catalogs (?).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:32:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This loco has all the details of a Penn Line L-1 Mikado – they did produce the mechanisms with the middle 2 pair of drivers without flanges. Also with die cast frames and that plastic lead truck wheelset.

Jim Waterman

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4273/9037 - Release Date: 02/01/15

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23827	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

The separate sand dome was a change made to the model by Bowser. Penn Line used the K4 casting with the sand dome incorrectly located for an L1. The white-looking plating on the tires is also typical of later Bowser.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: oljoe oljoe@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 1, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

On 2/1/2015 12:02 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Jim,

Good to know these details. If anyone knew about Penn Line I figured it would be you, even expecting you to comment sooner. As I mentioned, all my Penn Line catalogs show the Mikado with all drivers flanged, although I don't have each & every Penn Line catalog. I have to wonder now, when they started putting blind drivers on their engines -- or did they possibly just include photos of their models with all flanged drivers just for appearance sake in their catalogs (?).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:32:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This loco has all the details of a Penn Line L-1 Mikado – they did produce the mechanisms with the middle 2 pair of drivers without flanges. Also with die cast frames and that plastic lead truck wheelset.

Jim Waterman

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4273/9037 - Release Date: 02/01/15

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23828	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Ebay price on Gilbert items

Anybody else think this is completely nuts? That is $35.00 a car.



				AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent US $135.00 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale

				View on www.ebay.com	Preview by Yahoo

Kent Hurley
Kansas City, MO
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23829	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Ebay price on Gilbert items

I wonder what car might be so rare ???

The jet fuel tank on the flat, perhaps ?

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 1, 2015, at 8:05 PM, 'nvrr49@...' nvrr49@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> Anybody else think this is completely nuts? That is $35.00 a car.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23830	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Ebay price on Gilbert items

No, not really. There are two very desirable cars in that group. The Bar Reefer and the Hooker tanker are very hard to find. Even harder to find in nice shape as those two look to be. Even the Jet Engine flat is not so common to find with the load intact. The Mobil tank car is the only piece that you could call somewhat common. Seeing the reefer and the Hooker together is a nice find and better to get. I would bet the bidders all looked for these two cars for sometime and were willing to bid seriously to finally get them.

Dom

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 9:05 PM, "'nvrr49@...' nvrr49@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Anybody else think this is completely nuts? That is $35.00 a car.

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent



				AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent US $135.00 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale

				View on www.ebay.com	Preview by Yahoo

Kent Hurley
Kansas City, MO
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23831	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Marx HO ?s

Well, seeing that there are questions regarding some Gilbert HO, I would like to ask something about a Marx HO piece if I may.

Would anyone have an opinion or information regarding the Marx HO orange shell NYC #4000 F unit diesel? Any Marx HO collectors who can tell me about this engine? I would be grateful.

Thanks, Dominic

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23832	From: rick flaherty	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Ebay price on Gilbert items

Attachments :

Bugs P-38[8]-23832.png

Wow!

Rick

"The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." Albert Einstein

From: "'nvrr49@...' nvrr49@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, February 1, 2015 6:05 PM
To: "vintageho@yahoogroups.com" <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay price on Gilbert items

Anybody else think this is completely nuts? That is $35.00 a car.

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent



				AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent US $135.00 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale

				View on www.ebay.com	Preview by Yahoo

Kent Hurley
Kansas City, MO
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23833	From: rshiel01	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Kawai SP 0-6-0

Attachments :

Kawai SP 0-6-0.jpg

Kawai Model box.jpg

I posted this query to brasscollectors in the off chance there was a Kawai collector there with some information on this wee SP loco. I've tracked it to John Glaab's 3rd ed. Brown Book, a 1957 import by Western Aero Supply, no production numbers, and not mentioned in the 2008 Brass Guide that I could see, nor on Dan's website. Does anyone on vintageHO have any further info on the Kawai 0-6-0, or indeed where WAS is/was located? Thanks again, Russ

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23834	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Ebay price on Gilbert items

On 2/1/2015 8:05 PM, 'nvrr49@...' nvrr49@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Anybody else think this is completely nuts? That is $35.00 a car.

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent
US $135.00 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale

View on www.ebay.com

Preview by Yahoo

Kent Hurley
Kansas City, MO
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

I wouldn't have paid that. At Least the seller seemed honest (the bidding oped at a buck), he might be as surprised as we are

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23835	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Ray,

I pulled a couple of things out of the archive: A retouched photo from Penn Line that was likely used in the catalog, clearly shows flanged drivers in the center 2 pairs. Photos are posted in a folder called ‘Penn Line – L-1 Mikado – photo and actual.

Also a picture of a late PL mechanism. This was one of hundreds that we bought that were built up by PL for their ready to run line, my dad (Trackside Specialties) bought most of the parts inventory during the PL auction, and this was one of the ones that weren’t sold. Note unflanged center drivers.

There is a also a mystery photo here. In the stack of photos (and there are hundreds that we got as part of the auction), is a photo of an L-1 showing a different boiler – perhaps PL was considering a ‘real’ L-1 boiler with the domes in the right place. I have several photos of prototype PL engines that never saw the light of day (C-1 0-8-0, a G-5 with oversized drivers, an M-1 cobbled together from spliced K-4 boilers). Who knows what might have been?

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23836	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Ebay price on Gilbert items

I understand some of you don't think these are worth what they went for. It' all what your interested in I guess. There are those who find value in many different things and others, still, who think them crazy. Those pieces are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them at that time. It's not crazy. It's no t nuts! In the good years the Hooker and the Bar reefer would easily have commanded more than what the four brought altogether. When your a collector, putting together a collection, you don't shy from paying large for the rare pieces.

To those who don't know the value of some Gilbert HO items this might be a surprise. To those who do know of the rare pieces in the Gilbert HO line, they would be surprised that they went so cheap!

Kent, the fact that the opening bid started low doesn't define the seller as "honest"! I guess starting higher to protect the value of the pieces would have made him dishonest? I don't understand that logic! You may not have paid that, but, there where some who would have and one in particular who did. There's no need to think it nuts or dishonest.

Dominic

On Monday, February 2, 2015 1:00 AM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

On 2/1/2015 8:05 PM, 'nvrr49@...' nvrr49@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Anybody else think this is completely nuts? That is $35.00 a car.

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent
US $135.00 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale

View on www.ebay.com

Preview by Yahoo

Kent Hurley
Kansas City, MO
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

I wouldn't have paid that. At Least the seller seemed honest (the bidding oped at a buck), he might be as surprised as we are

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23837	From: luvprr2003	Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Ebay price on Gilbert items

Happened across this comment, and I can tell you that Dominic is "right on the money." No pun intended. The value of any item is determined by what the buyer is willing to pay--not what someone else is willing to pay and not by some Great Financial Evaluator up in the sky or on Wall Street. If you like something but don't have the money you tend to sneer at the prices. However, if you like it and have the bucks then you are lucky to be able to get it. I have bought and sold items on eBay that went for big money and which started at $0.99 and some which started MUCH higher. And there is no rule of thumb of pricing which makes some seller more honest than others. Looking at those Gilbert cars I would say, based on my experience in buying and selling vintage HO items, that a hundred bucks or so ain't bad for Gilbert stuff in that apparent condition. I might add that I sold an original, mint, Penn LIne Crusader for $2000 a few years back, and it was worth it to the buyer for very good reasons based on his family history. It all depends on your perspective, my friends. Of course, if you're totally naive, then you have to be careful too. As the late, great, Richie Ashburn used to like to say, "Hey, I've got some swamp land in Bryn Mawr that you might be interested in."

Art W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23838	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Ebay price on Gilbert items

I was the one that said "honest". Not for what the buyer paid, that's his problem. What I have a problem with is the seller who takes an everyday common piece of China made Bachmann that you can find on the tpy shelf of any Salvation Army store for 50 cents, and pushes it as "old" and "rare" with a $ 100 starting bid. (maybe I'm exaggerating but you get the idea.)

Don

On 2/2/2015 7:57 AM, 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I understand some of you don't think these are worth what they went for. It' all what your interested in I guess. There are those who find value in many different things and others, still, who think them crazy. Those pieces are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them at that time. It's not crazy. It's no t nuts! In the good years the Hooker and the Bar reefer would easily have commanded more than what the four brought altogether. When your a collector, putting together a collection, you don't shy from paying large for the rare pieces.

To those who don't know the value of some Gilbert HO items this might be a surprise. To those who do know of the rare pieces in the Gilbert HO line, they would be surprised that they went so cheap!

Kent, the fact that the opening bid started low doesn't define the seller as "honest"! I guess starting higher to protect the value of the pieces would have made him dishonest? I don't understand that logic! You may not have paid that, but, there where some who would have and one in particular who did. There's no need to think it nuts or dishonest.

Dominic

On Monday, February 2, 2015 1:00 AM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

On 2/1/2015 8:05 PM, 'nvrr49@...' nvrr49@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Anybody else think this is completely nuts? That is $35.00 a car.

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent
US $135.00 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale

View on www.ebay.com

Preview by Yahoo

Kent Hurley
Kansas City, MO
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

I wouldn't have paid that. At Least the seller seemed honest (the bidding oped at a buck), he might be as surprised as we are

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23839	From: Dale Smith	Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Ebay price on Gilbert items

That's not a bad deal at all. I looked them up on Gary Klein's Gilbert HO guide (2nd edition, but it is the only one I have access to right now) and the Hooker has a low value of $45, the BAR is $75, the jet engine is $50. The Mobil is $15. Even these low values are a lot more than was paid. They should have gotten more than this low ball estimate. There were a lot of bids, 18 bids and 9 bidders. I think they knew what it was, but we're trying to get it as low as possible.

Don may be right as to the possible surprise of the seller.

At train shows, there are a lot of sellers who sell Gilbert for low prices, not knowing what they have.

Dale Smith
www.gilbertho.org

On February 2, 2015 5:57:08 AM PST, "'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I understand some of you don't think these are worth what they went for. It' all what your interested in I guess. There are those who find value in many different things and others, still, who think them crazy. Those pieces are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them at that time. It's not crazy. It's no t nuts! In the good years the Hooker and the Bar reefer would easily have commanded more than what the four brought altogether. When your a collector, putting together a collection, you don't shy from paying large for the rare pieces.
To those who don't know the value of some Gilbert HO items this might be a surprise. To those who do know of the rare pieces in the Gilbert HO line, they would be surprised that they went so cheap!
Kent, the fact that the opening bid started low doesn't define the seller as "honest"! I guess starting higher to protect the value of the pieces would have made him dishonest? I don't understand that logic! You may not have paid that, but, there where some who would have and one in particular who did. There's no need to think it nuts or dishonest.
Dominic

On Monday, February 2, 2015 1:00 AM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

On 2/1/2015 8:05 PM, 'nvrr49@...' nvrr49@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Anybody else think this is completely nuts? That is $35.00 a car.

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent

AC Gilbert HO Scale Lot of 4 cars - Excellent
US $135.00 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale

View on www.ebay.com

Preview by Yahoo

Kent Hurley
Kansas City, MO
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

I wouldn't have paid that. At Least the seller seemed honest (the bidding oped at a buck), he might be as surprised as we are

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23840	From: luvprr2003	Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Ebay price on Gilbert items

Don,

You're right about that. On the other hand, I've found other sellers who were so totally ignorant and actually thought the damn thing was really rare and just guessed that was worth a lot to a collector. They had no clue and so listed it and hoped. After laughing my head off for a while I've emailed a few as to why they thought it was so rare and they replied that, "It can't be found in a store", or some young thing told them it was--so there ya go. You do get all kinds, and I do agree that some try to scam bright-eyed newbies on eBay who have no idea and believe anything.

Art

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23841	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Fun Kit-Mangle

Look fast, it's got less than 3-hours to go

Its a great kit-bash of a Mantua F-7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Scale-F3-1-2-Diesel-Locomotive/171658467578?_

Well.........
At least a fun kit-bash, and perfect for a train of Pikers and Oscars. Maybe an express train of Piker-ized mail and express-baggage cars would go along well with the engine?

If someone misses seeing it, I can post images later.

8^)

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23842	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Another project

I shouldn't have....... but I couldn't resist

There -was- a nice scratch-built streamlined steamer super-structure made in brass that looks like it could be made earlier than 1950 and never completed.

I'm hoping it will fit a Mantua Pacific chassis.

I'm going to have to change the cab on it, it would look nicer with a welded, enclosed cab on her.

I'll attach a thumb of her.

Tell me what you think........

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23843	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Jim,

So, the Penn Line Mikado mechanisms from the parts inventory had unflanged center drivers -- the same as Joe indicates -- yet the retouched Penn Line photo that was likely used in their catalogs showed this model as having all flanged drivers, as I mentioned. That the model actually came with unflanged drovers, yet the PL photo you dug out of your dad's (Trackside Specialties') archive show the model as having flanged center drivers, this seems to point directly to this photo being used for the catalog -- strictly for ("false," or at least deceptive and misleading) advertising purposes in enhancing the model's appearance apparently to promote sales. Alright, as I only have Bowser Mikado's but no Penn Line versions, I was unaware that PL Mikes also came with blind center drivers and appreciate the truth in this matter.

Russ now needs to revise his take on the possible manufacturer and production date of this model, with Penn Line being a possible originator of the L-1 in question. Without going to my MR mags and only using the catalogs, it appears that Penn Line came out with the PRR Mikado sometime after 1950 and before 1953. Oddly enough, in those later PL catalogs where both the Mikado and Decapod appear (the Decapod was produced later), this (Decapod) model's photo clearly showed the three pairs of unflanged "center" drivers while the Mikado's photo still showed all flanged drivers. As Model Railroad Equipment Corp. used photos supplied by the manufacturer, the PL Mikado photo appearing in those catalogs also showed all flanged drivers.

Interesting, that PL may have been planning an L-1 with correct dome positions. Too bad they never followed through with that, just as they continued to incorrectly use only the K-4 boiler again, for the I-1 Decapod. I find it quite enlightening too, that there were several other Penn Line model protoype photos which PL may have had plans for in producing other Pennsy models. Speaking about what might have been, it's too bad that Penn Line never produced a Pennsy S-1 Turbine. I remember Lionel's first post War full-line catalog in 1946 offering the Pennsy S-1 Turbine (with photo). Along with their GG-1 that year, it was a great hit.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/2/2015 6:49:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I pulled a couple of things out of the archive: A retouched photo from Penn Line that was likely used in the catalog, clearly shows flanged drivers in the center 2 pairs. Photos are posted in a folder called ‘Penn Line – L-1 Mikado – photo and actual.

Also a picture of a late PL mechanism. This was one of hundreds that we bought that were built up by PL for their ready to run line, my dad (Trackside Specialties) bought most of the parts inventory during the PL auction, and this was one of the ones that weren’t sold. Note unflanged center drivers.

There is a also a mystery photo here. In the stack of photos (and there are hundreds that we got as part of the auction), is a photo of an L-1 showing a different boiler – perhaps PL was considering a ‘real’ L-1 boiler with the domes in the right place. I have several photos of prototype PL engines that never saw the light of day (C-1 0-8-0, a G-5 with oversized drivers, an M-1 cobbled together from spliced K-4 boilers). Who knows what might have been?

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23844	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Richard,

Thanks for filling me in on this new "old" news. I discontinued buying Bowser catalogs after I bought several of their correct version Cary/Bowser Decapods (with wider boiler) having the lighter zamac shell, replacing the mainly lead shell. I didn't think I needed any more Bowser models and wasn't aware that they produced an L-1 with a separate sand dome to be installed on the K-4 boiler in this kit in the correct position. Would you happen to have a part number for it? I'm also curious to know if this changed Bowser L-1 kit's K-4 boiler had its wrongly positioned (for a Mikado) sand dome factory-removed or whether that was left up to the modeler to do. -- or was this separate sand dome only sold separately, and was never included with a changed/updated Mikado kit?

The earlier Bowser Decapods I bought, also having the K-4 boiler didn't go to waste. I used their mechanisms to put under several Cary PRR "Santa Fe" type (N-1) boilers. Wish I knew about this sand dome change for the Mike at this same time. Thanks again.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 3:01:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The separate sand dome was a change made to the model by Bowser. Penn Line used the K4 casting with the sand dome incorrectly located for an L1. The white-looking plating on the tires is also typical of later Bowser.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: oljoe oljoe@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 1, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Penn Line loco's did not have flanged inside drivers except for drivers on each end of the driver set.
Penn Line loco's, unlike a number of brass imports, could not and did not slide sideways
in the frame. The "fixed frame" mounting of flanged inner driver wheelsets would have
required almost impossible radius curves. I owned an Olympia brass PRR S2 (6-8-6) that had
the amazing and fully flanged sideways sliding wheelsets that allowed it to easily navigate 22"
radius curves. The siderod screws also had shoulders that permitted the sideways
movement on all inner driver wheelsets. I also mention that all driver wheelsets were
sprung vertically in their slots. Although I never tried it I suspect that the S2
could navigate 18" radius curves. The traction the loco had was nothing short of
amazing. It could pull every car I owned without complaint.

Joe O'Loughlin

On 2/1/2015 12:02 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Jim,

Good to know these details. If anyone knew about Penn Line I figured it would be you, even expecting you to comment sooner. As I mentioned, all my Penn Line catalogs show the Mikado with all drivers flanged, although I don't have each & every Penn Line catalog. I have to wonder now, when they started putting blind drivers on their engines -- or did they possibly just include photos of their models with all flanged drivers just for appearance sake in their catalogs (?).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:32:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This loco has all the details of a Penn Line L-1 Mikado – they did produce the mechanisms with the middle 2 pair of drivers without flanges. Also with die cast frames and that plastic lead truck wheelset.

Jim Waterman

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4273/9037 - Release Date: 02/01/15

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23845	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Ray,

I believe the mold was changed to eliminate the integral sand dome, so the K4s would also have a separate dome (different part number). And you could order a dome to upgrade your older boiler, but would have to do some filing. Check with Bowser; they may still have some in stock. If I can find my catalog, I'll look up the part number.

The next phase was making new molds for the lead-free boiler castings, including the enlarged I1s.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 3, 2015 7:37 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Richard,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 3:01:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The separate sand dome was a change made to the model by Bowser. Penn Line used the K4 casting with the sand dome incorrectly located for an L1. The white-looking plating on the tires is also typical of later Bowser.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: oljoe oljoe@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 1, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Penn Line loco's did not have flanged inside drivers except for drivers on each end of the driver set.
Penn Line loco's, unlike a number of brass imports, could not and did not slide sideways
in the frame. The "fixed frame" mounting of flanged inner driver wheelsets would have
required almost impossible radius curves. I owned an Olympia brass PRR S2 (6-8-6) that had
the amazing and fully flanged sideways sliding wheelsets that allowed it to easily navigate 22"
radius curves. The siderod screws also had shoulders that permitted the sideways
movement on all inner driver wheelsets. I also mention that all driver wheelsets were
sprung vertically in their slots. Although I never tried it I suspect that the S2
could navigate 18" radius curves. The traction the loco had was nothing short of
amazing. It could pull every car I owned without complaint.

Joe O'Loughlin

On 2/1/2015 12:02 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Jim,

Good to know these details. If anyone knew about Penn Line I figured it would be you, even expecting you to comment sooner. As I mentioned, all my Penn Line catalogs show the Mikado with all drivers flanged, although I don't have each & every Penn Line catalog. I have to wonder now, when they started putting blind drivers on their engines -- or did they possibly just include photos of their models with all flanged drivers just for appearance sake in their catalogs (?).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:32:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This loco has all the details of a Penn Line L-1 Mikado – they did produce the mechanisms with the middle 2 pair of drivers without flanges. Also with die cast frames and that plastic lead truck wheelset.

Jim Waterman

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4273/9037 - Release Date: 02/01/15

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23846	From: garyp552002	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Advice.

Hey Guys. I am recently retired and now have the time but little money to finally build my layout. I have gathered stuff for 40 years and have most of the stuff I can't scrath build. However in collecting Y6's and z's and other long locos I need a turntable but can't shell out $300.00 for a 135' . I would like to scratch build one and ask for help on fabricating the bridge. I thought of using heavy card stock. Do you think it sturdy enough if properly braced? I plan to build it like a prototype with plate and angles. Any advice on forming rivits short of the rivit decals available. I need to cut costs anywhere I can. I think I can fabricate the rotational part from stuff in my 40 year junk box. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. GaryP

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23847	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Advice.

Gary,

I am pretty certain you could build it out of cardstock but I would be worried about eventual warping. Maybe styrene?

So far as rivets, I agree the decals rivets by Archer can get pricey if you need a bunch, and if you’re doing an accurate 135’ turntable you will probably need a bunch. Micro Mark has decal rivets for less but they are also of poorer quality, having described by many as blobs instead of the very nicely form Archer’s.

There have been many articles on home built riveters over the years but getting the proper spacing consistently as always seemed to me to a pain. I have a NWSL riveter and Sensipress that work very well but both can also be pricey. It all depends if you are going to do other projects that require rivets. If so the cost will eventually be a bargain compared to decal rivets.

Now for the commercial. I have an addition NWSL “The Riveter +” still sealed sitting here. I got it shortly before I got the complete set up from a friend’s estate. The tool runs $90.00 from NWSL and includes a 0.015” punch and die set. Other sizes are available from NWSL for $6.00 ea. Or a set of 11 for $40.00. I paid 48.37 including shipping for it through eBay, and you can have it for that plus shipping. Shipping would be $11.30 for Priority Mail or likely a bit less for Parcel Post. I paid $7.00 and change for shipping when I purchased it.

Of course you will still need some sort of press. The Sensipress runs $130.00 but really, you could use other forms of a press. I had planned on using it with a small drill press and still see no reason that would not have worked.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 2:44 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Advice.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23848	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Advice.

Congrads on your retirement!

For true strength....... use a core of a hardwood strip in the bridge.

I can go to Menards and get a Oak or Maple 1x2x36 for about $3.50 from their trim-strip section. The wood is very well planed and arrow straight. There are other common small section sizes as well.

The like should be around you from either the same chain or a similar store.

You'll have a very strong turntable that you can skin and detail as you'd like.

Another thought is to use a metal pizza oven pan as your turntable pit. While you likely will wish to put some stiffener under it like some plywood; having the pit itself ready-made can be a real advantage. It would be a shallow pit and you might wish to use it as the floor of the pit and build-up taller side walls in it.

You'll have the advantage of making the turntable and pit as a unit that can be built on the workbench, slipped into the layout, and taken back to the workbench at any time for servicing or repair.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 3, 2015, at 2:43 PM, gary wrote:

Hey Guys. I am recently retired and now have the time but little money to finally build my layout. I have gathered stuff for 40 years and have most of the stuff I can't scrath build. However in collecting Y6's and z's and other long locos I need a turntable but can't shell out $300.00 for a 135' . I would like to scratch build one and ask for help on fabricating the bridge. I thought of using heavy card stock. Do you think it sturdy enough if properly braced? I plan to build it like a prototype with plate and angles. Any advice on forming rivits short of the rivit decals available. I need to cut costs anywhere I can. I think I can fabricate the rotational part from stuff in my 40 year junk box. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. GaryP

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23849	From: gary pardue	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Advice.

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2/3/15, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Advice.
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2015, 4:29 PM

John,
Thanks for the reply and advice. Sorry, I can't afford your generous offer. Thanks. Gary

Gary, I am pretty certain
you could build it out of cardstock but I would be worried
about eventual warping. Maybe styrene? So far as rivets, I
agree the decals rivets by Archer can get pricey if you need
a bunch, and if you’re doing an accurate 135’ turntable
you will probably need a bunch. Micro Mark has decal rivets
for less but they are also of poorer quality, having
described by many as blobs instead of the very nicely form
Archer’s.There have been many
articles on home built riveters over the years but getting
the proper spacing consistently as always seemed to me to a
pain. I have a NWSL riveter and Sensipress that work very
well but both can also be pricey. It all depends if you are
going to do other projects that require rivets. If so the
cost will eventually be a bargain compared to decal
rivets.Now for the
commercial. I have an addition NWSL “The Riveter +”
still sealed sitting here. I got it shortly before I got the
complete set up from a friend’s estate. The tool runs
$90.00 from NWSL and includes a 0.015” punch and die set.
Other sizes are available from NWSL for $6.00 ea. Or a set
of 11 for $40.00. I paid 48.37 including shipping for it
through eBay, and you can have it for that plus shipping.
Shipping would be $11.30 for Priority Mail or likely a bit
less for Parcel Post. I paid $7.00 and change for shipping
when I purchased it.Of course you will
still need some sort of press. The Sensipress runs $130.00
but really, you could use other forms of a press. I had
planned on using it with a small drill press and still see
no reason that would not have worked. John
Hagen
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 2:44
PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO]
Advice.
Hey Guys. I
am recently retired and now have the time but little money
to finally build my layout. I have gathered stuff for 40
years and have most of the stuff I can't scrath build.
However in collecting Y6's and z's and other long
locos I need a turntable but can't shell out $300.00 for
a 135' . I would like to scratch build one and ask for
help on fabricating the bridge. I thought of using heavy
card stock. Do you think it sturdy enough if properly
braced? I plan to build it like a prototype with plate and
angles. Any advice on forming rivits short of the rivit
decals available. I need to cut costs anywhere I can. I
think I can fabricate the rotational part from stuff in my
40 year junk box. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly
appreciated. GaryP

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23850	From: gary pardue	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Advice.

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2/3/15, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Advice.
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2015, 4:29 PM

Mike, Thanks for the reply and advice. I especially like the pizza pan idea. Thanks!!! Gary

Congrads on your retirement!
For true strength....... use a core of a
hardwood strip in the bridge.
I can go to Menards and get a Oak or
Maple 1x2x36 for about $3.50 from their trim-strip section.
The wood is very well planed and arrow straight. There are
other common small section sizes as well.
The like should be around you from
either the same chain or a similar store.
You'll have a very strong
turntable that you can skin and detail as you'd
like.
Another thought
is to use a metal pizza oven pan as your turntable pit.
While you likely will wish to put some stiffener under it
like some plywood; having the pit itself ready-made can be a
real advantage. It would be a shallow pit and you might wish
to use it as the floor of the pit and build-up taller side
walls in it.
You'll have the advantage of
making the turntable and pit as a unit that can be built on
the workbench, slipped into the layout, and taken back to
the workbench at any time for servicing or
repair.

Best to ya,Mike
BauersMilwaukee, Wi

On Feb 3, 2015, at 2:43 PM, gary
wrote:

Hey Guys. I am
recently retired and now have the time but little money to
finally build my layout. I have gathered stuff for 40 years
and have most of the stuff I can't scrath build. However
in collecting Y6's and z's and other long locos I
need a turntable but can't shell out $300.00 for a
135' . I would like to scratch build one and ask for
help on fabricating the bridge. I thought of using heavy
card stock. Do you think it sturdy enough if properly
braced? I plan to build it like a prototype with plate and
angles. Any advice on forming rivits short of the rivit
decals available. I need to cut costs anywhere I can. I
think I can fabricate the rotational part from stuff in my
40 year junk box. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly
appreciated. GaryP

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23851	From: Dave Audley	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Advice.

I don't know where you live, but if there is any new home or industrial construction

around where you live - try dumpster diving for material. I have a medium size

layout in a room about 22'-0 by 30'-0. All the 1"x 4" by whatever length came from

new house construction. I purchased only one length! I also used pieces of 1" and

2" foam glued to the "free" 1" x 4" framework. And, this didn't even cost me gas as

2 very good buddies brought all of this to my humble abode! This allowed me to use

Micro Engineering track and switches! Worked for me and NO problems after 6 years

of operation!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 1:43 PM, "garyp552002@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23852	From: gary pardue	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Advice.

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2/3/15, Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Advice.
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2015, 4:52 PM

Dave, Thanks for the great idesa. Gary

I
don't know where you live, but if there is any new home
or industrial constructionaround
where you live - try dumpster diving for material. I have a
medium sizelayout
in a room about 22'-0 by 30'-0. All the 1"x
4" by whatever length came fromnew
house construction. I purchased only one length! I also used
pieces of 1" and2"
foam glued to the "free" 1" x 4"
framework. And, this didn't even cost me gas
as2 very
good buddies brought all of this to my humble abode! This
allowed me to useMicro
Engineering track and switches! Worked for me and NO
problems after 6 yearsof
operation! Dave
Audley

On Tuesday, February
3, 2015 1:43 PM, "garyp552002@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Hey Guys. I am recently
retired and now have the time but little money to finally
build my layout. I have gathered stuff for 40 years and have
most of the stuff I can't scrath build. However in
collecting Y6's and z's and other long locos I need
a turntable but can't shell out $300.00 for a 135' .
I would like to scratch build one and ask for help on
fabricating the bridge. I thought of using heavy card stock.
Do you think it sturdy enough if properly braced? I plan to
build it like a prototype with plate and angles. Any advice
on forming rivits short of the rivit decals available. I
need to cut costs anywhere I can. I think I can fabricate
the rotational part from stuff in my 40 year junk box. Any
advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
GaryP

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23853	From: willard seehorn	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Turntable (was:) Advice.

A quick Google search for "ho turntable scratch built" had over 3000 hits.

Craig Bisgeier's Housatonic Rail Road has some excellent scratch building. He wrote up his experience here http://www.housatonicrr.com/diy_turntable.htm

Others had fewer problems.

Will

-----Original Message----- _,_.___
On Feb 3, 2015, at 2:43 PM, gary wrote:

Hey Guys. I am recently retired and now have the time but little money to finally build my layout. I have gathered stuff for 40 years and have most of the stuff I can't scrath build. However in collecting Y6's and z's and other long locos I need a turntable but can't shell out $300.00 for a 135' . I would like to scratch build one and ask for help on fabricating the bridge. I thought of using heavy card stock. Do you think it sturdy enough if properly braced? I plan to build it like a prototype with plate and angles. Any advice on forming rivits short of the rivit decals available. I need to cut costs anywhere I can. I think I can fabricate the rotational part from stuff in my 40 year junk box. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. GaryP

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23854	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Attachments :

100_7659.JPG

Ray,

I got out my 1994 Bowser catalog. Here is the L1 with separate sand dome diagram. Note it was the latest version then. The frame casting looks different from the Penn Line version as well; could be a spotting feature for the mystery L1.

Richard.

Richard,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 3:01:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The separate sand dome was a change made to the model by Bowser. Penn Line used the K4 casting with the sand dome incorrectly located for an L1. The white-looking plating on the tires is also typical of later Bowser.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: oljoe oljoe@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 1, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Penn Line loco's did not have flanged inside drivers except for drivers on each end of the driver set.
Penn Line loco's, unlike a number of brass imports, could not and did not slide sideways
in the frame. The "fixed frame" mounting of flanged inner driver wheelsets would have
required almost impossible radius curves. I owned an Olympia brass PRR S2 (6-8-6) that had
the amazing and fully flanged sideways sliding wheelsets that allowed it to easily navigate 22"
radius curves. The siderod screws also had shoulders that permitted the sideways
movement on all inner driver wheelsets. I also mention that all driver wheelsets were
sprung vertically in their slots. Although I never tried it I suspect that the S2
could navigate 18" radius curves. The traction the loco had was nothing short of
amazing. It could pull every car I owned without complaint.

Joe O'Loughlin

On 2/1/2015 12:02 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Jim,

Good to know these details. If anyone knew about Penn Line I figured it would be you, even expecting you to comment sooner. As I mentioned, all my Penn Line catalogs show the Mikado with all drivers flanged, although I don't have each & every Penn Line catalog. I have to wonder now, when they started putting blind drivers on their engines -- or did they possibly just include photos of their models with all flanged drivers just for appearance sake in their catalogs (?).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:32:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This loco has all the details of a Penn Line L-1 Mikado â they did produce the mechanisms with the middle 2 pair of drivers without flanges. Also with die cast frames and that plastic lead truck wheelset.

Jim Waterman

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4273/9037 - Release Date: 02/01/15

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23855	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2 [1 Attachment]

Richard,

Thank you very, very much for the info; I appreciate it immensely. Now to find one somewhere! As for the attachment, you're probably not aware that I've posted, that my browser isn't permitting me to view it but instead directs me to the Neo homepage where it prevents me from navigating further. Just this information though, is a huge help. Thanks again.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:16:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I got out my 1994 Bowser catalog. Here is the L1 with separate sand dome diagram. Note it was the latest version then. The frame casting looks different from the Penn Line version as well; could be a spotting feature for the mystery L1.

Richard.

-----Original Message-----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 3, 2015 7:37 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Richard,

Thanks for filling me in on this new "old" news. I discontinued buying Bowser catalogs after I bought several of their correct version Cary/Bowser Decapods (with wider boiler) having the lighter zamac shell, replacing the mainly lead shell. I didn't think I needed any more Bowser models and wasn't aware that they produced an L-1 with a separate sand dome to be installed on the K-4 boiler in this kit in the correct position. Would you happen to have a part number for it? I'm also curious to know if this changed Bowser L-1 kit's K-4 boiler had its wrongly positioned (for a Mikado) sand dome factory-removed or whether that was left up to the modeler to do. -- or was this separate sand dome only sold separately, and was never included with a changed/updated Mikado kit?

The earlier Bowser Decapods I bought, also having the K-4 boiler didn't go to waste. I used their mechanisms to put under several Cary PRR "Santa Fe" type (N-1) boilers. Wish I knew about this sand dome change for the Mike at this same time. Thanks again.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 2/1/2015 3:01:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The separate sand dome was a change made to the model by Bowser.   Penn Line used the K4 casting with the sand dome incorrectly located for an L1. The white-looking plating on the tires is also typical of later Bowser.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: oljoe oljoe@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 1, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Penn Line loco's did not have flanged inside drivers except for drivers on each end of the driver set.
Penn Line loco's, unlike a number of brass imports, could not and did not slide sideways
in the frame. The "fixed frame" mounting of flanged inner driver wheelsets would have
required almost impossible radius curves. I owned an Olympia brass PRR S2 (6-8-6) that had
the amazing and fully flanged sideways sliding wheelsets that allowed it to easily navigate 22"
radius curves. The siderod screws also had shoulders that permitted the sideways
movement on all inner driver wheelsets. I also mention that all driver wheelsets were
sprung vertically in their slots. Although I never tried it I suspect that the S2
could navigate 18" radius curves. The traction the loco had was nothing short of
amazing. It could pull every car I owned without complaint.

Joe O'Loughlin

On 2/1/2015 12:02 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Jim,

Good to know these details. If anyone knew about Penn Line I figured it would be you, even expecting you to comment sooner. As I mentioned, all my Penn Line catalogs show the Mikado with all drivers flanged, although I don't have each & every Penn Line catalog. I have to wonder now, when they started putting blind drivers on their engines -- or did they possibly just include photos of their models with all flanged drivers just for appearance sake in their catalogs (?).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:32:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This loco has all the details of a Penn Line L-1 Mikado â they did produce the mechanisms with the middle 2 pair of drivers without flanges. Also with die cast frames and that plastic lead truck wheelset.

Jim Waterman

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4273/9037 - Release Date: 02/01/15

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23856	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Ray,

If your browser will allow you to follow a link, I posted the diagram at:

http://prr8157.deviantart.com/art/Bowser-L1-diagram-511700662

Hope this outsmarts that obstinate browser,

Richard.

-----Original Message-----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 3, 2015 7:50 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Richard,

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:16:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I got out my 1994 Bowser catalog. Here is the L1 with separate sand dome diagram. Note it was the latest version then. The frame casting looks different from the Penn Line version as well; could be a spotting feature for the mystery L1.

Richard.

-----Original Message-----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 3, 2015 7:37 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Richard,

Thanks for filling me in on this new "old" news. I discontinued buying Bowser catalogs after I bought several of their correct version Cary/Bowser Decapods (with wider boiler) having the lighter zamac shell, replacing the mainly lead shell. I didn't think I needed any more Bowser models and wasn't aware that they produced an L-1 with a separate sand dome to be installed on the K-4 boiler in this kit in the correct position. Would you happen to have a part number for it? I'm also curious to know if this changed Bowser L-1 kit's K-4 boiler had its wrongly positioned (for a Mikado) sand dome factory-removed or whether that was left up to the modeler to do. -- or was this separate sand dome only sold separately, and was never included with a changed/updated Mikado kit?

The earlier Bowser Decapods I bought, also having the K-4 boiler didn't go to waste. I used their mechanisms to put under several Cary PRR "Santa Fe" type (N-1) boilers. Wish I knew about this sand dome change for the Mike at this same time. Thanks again.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 2/1/2015 3:01:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The separate sand dome was a change made to the model by Bowser.   Penn Line used the K4 casting with the sand dome incorrectly located for an L1. The white-looking plating on the tires is also typical of later Bowser.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: oljoe oljoe@... [vintageHO] < vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO < vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 1, 2015 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Penn Line loco's did not have flanged inside drivers except for drivers on each end of the driver set.
Penn Line loco's, unlike a number of brass imports, could not and did not slide sideways
in the frame. The "fixed frame" mounting of flanged inner driver wheelsets would have
required almost impossible radius curves. I owned an Olympia brass PRR S2 (6-8-6) that had
the amazing and fully flanged sideways sliding wheelsets that allowed it to easily navigate 22"
radius curves. The siderod screws also had shoulders that permitted the sideways
movement on all inner driver wheelsets. I also mention that all driver wheelsets were
sprung vertically in their slots. Although I never tried it I suspect that the S2
could navigate 18" radius curves. The traction the loco had was nothing short of
amazing. It could pull every car I owned without complaint.

Joe O'Loughlin

On 2/1/2015 12:02 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Jim,

Good to know these details. If anyone knew about Penn Line I figured it would be you, even expecting you to comment sooner. As I mentioned, all my Penn Line catalogs show the Mikado with all drivers flanged, although I don't have each & every Penn Line catalog. I have to wonder now, when they started putting blind drivers on their engines -- or did they possibly just include photos of their models with all flanged drivers just for appearance sake in their catalogs (?).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:32:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

This loco has all the details of a Penn Line L-1 Mikado â they did produce the mechanisms with the middle 2 pair of drivers without flanges. Also with die cast frames and that plastic lead truck wheelset.

Jim Waterman

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4273/9037 - Release Date: 02/01/15

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23857	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Check this link or, if it won’t cork, copy and paste into your browsers address bar.

http://www.bowser-trains.com/discontinued/hodiscontinuedlocol1mikado.html

It’ll take you to the Bowser site for the L-1. There is a large area titled “Kit Photos”. Most will show a photo of the item selected but clicking will get you a pdf file of the assembly instructions, about 12 pages and very informative.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 9:41 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a couple more pics of the PRR 2-8-2

Ray,

If your browser will allow you to follow a link, I posted the diagram at:

http://prr8157.deviantart.com/art/Bowser-L1-diagram-511700662

Hope this outsmarts that obstinate browser,

Richard.

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (2)