Messages in vintageHO group.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 4707	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4708	From: jay matz	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4709	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4710	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4711	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4712	From: erieberk	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4713	From: erieberk	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4714	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4715	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4716	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4717	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4718	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4719	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Happy 2008!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4720	From: erieberk	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4721	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4722	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4723	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4724	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4725	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4726	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4727	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4728	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4729	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4730	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: [Vintage HO] Weldwood/Weldbond
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4731	From: erieberk	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4732	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: [Vintage HO] Weldwood/Weldbond
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4733	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4734	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4735	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4736	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Classic Athearn F7 shells
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4737	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4738	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4739	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4740	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4741	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4742	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4743	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4744	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4745	From: Jim Snyder	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Classic Athearn F7 shells
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4746	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4747	From: erieberk	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4748	From: prrp5a	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4749	From: erieberk	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4750	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: A dealer with some old HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4751	From: erieberk	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4752	From: erieberk	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4753	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4754	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4755	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4756	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4757	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4758	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4759	From: erieberk	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4760	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4761	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4762	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4763	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4764	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4765	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4766	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4767	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4768	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4769	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4770	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4771	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4772	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4773	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4774	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Varney Coach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4775	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Coach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4776	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4777	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Coach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4778	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4779	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4780	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4781	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4782	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4783	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4784	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4785	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Coach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4786	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4787	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4788	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4789	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4790	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4791	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4792	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4793	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4794	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4795	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4796	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4797	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4798	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4799	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4800	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4801	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4802	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4803	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4804	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4805	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4806	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4807	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4808	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4809	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Walthers (was Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4810	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4811	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4812	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4813	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4814	From: erieberk	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Walthers (was Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4815	From: erieberk	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4816	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4817	From: erieberk	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4818	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4819	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers (was Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4820	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4821	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4822	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4823	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4824	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4825	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4826	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4827	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Hart Gondolas
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4828	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4829	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4830	From: erieberk	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4831	From: erieberk	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4832	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4833	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4834	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4835	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4836	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4837	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4838	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4839	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Rivarossi parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4840	From: oljoeoh	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4841	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4842	From: jerrygart5	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4843	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4844	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4845	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4846	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4847	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4848	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4849	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4850	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4851	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4852	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4853	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4854	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4855	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4856	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4857	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4858	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4859	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4860	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4861	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4862	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4863	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4864	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4865	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: WRIGHT ENTERPRISES
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4866	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/12/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4867	From: erieberk	Date: 1/12/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4868	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/12/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4869	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4870	From: erieberk	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4871	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4872	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: American Beauty Pendulum Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4873	From: erieberk	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4874	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4875	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4876	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Strea
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4877	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: McKean PS-1 boxcars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4878	From: maobuch@sbcglobal.net	Date: 1/14/2008
Subject: Model Traincars & Layout Forsale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4879	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/14/2008
Subject: Re: Model Traincars & Layout Forsale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4880	From: lvtrainmeet	Date: 1/14/2008
Subject: Nice Train meet this weekend
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4881	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/14/2008
Subject: Re: Model Traincars & Layout Forsale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4882	From: Paul Kayne	Date: 1/15/2008
Subject: Re: Nice Train meet this weekend
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4883	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/15/2008
Subject: FS: Older HO Cars & kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4884	From: erieberk	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4885	From: Ian Garton	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Interiors for MDC Roundhouse Pullman Palace Cars?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4886	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4887	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4888	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4889	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: Interiors for MDC Roundhouse Pullman Palace Cars?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4890	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4891	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4892	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4893	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4894	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4895	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4896	From: erieberk	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4897	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4898	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4899	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4900	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4901	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4902	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4903	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4904	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4905	From: erieberk	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4906	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4907	From: Ian Garton	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: Interiors for MDC Roundhouse Pullman Palace Cars?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4908	From: erieberk	Date: 1/25/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4909	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/25/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4910	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4911	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: spam warnings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4912	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Fw: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4913	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: spam warnings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4914	From: jimbartelt@sbcglobal.net	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: spam warnings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4915	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: warnings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4916	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Warnings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4917	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: Warnings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4918	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: warnings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4919	From: erieberk	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4920	From: erieberk	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4921	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4922	From: rcjge	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Endless amounts of untrimmed text.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4923	From: Lee Stoermer	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: spam warnings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4924	From: kilbeggan68	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Just the facts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4925	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4926	From: erieberk	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4927	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4928	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4929	From: oahurailway	Date: 1/28/2008
Subject: YOUR WORK IS MOST APPRECIATED!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4930	From: Jack Priller	Date: 1/28/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4931	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/28/2008
Subject: attn Don
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4932	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: attn Don
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4933	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4934	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4935	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: attn Don
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4936	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4937	From: cnj999	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4938	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4939	From: John Barlow	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4940	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Mantua memories ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4941	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4942	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4943	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4944	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4945	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4946	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4947	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4948	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4949	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4950	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: MANTUA PLASTIC/METAL
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4951	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4952	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4953	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4954	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4955	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4956	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: MANTUA PLASTIC/METAL
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4957	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4958	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: was: Mantua Memories - odd couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4959	From: jay matz	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4960	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4961	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4962	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: US Hobbies/KTM O gauge
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4963	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4964	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4965	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4966	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4967	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4968	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4969	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4970	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4971	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4972	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: US Hobbies/KTM O gauge
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4973	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4974	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4975	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4976	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4977	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4978	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4979	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4980	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: US Hobbies/KTM O gauge
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4981	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4982	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4983	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4984	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4985	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4986	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4987	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4988	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4989	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4990	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4991	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: US Hobbies/KTM O gauge
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4992	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4993	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4994	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4995	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4996	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.; was Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4997	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader O.T. - was Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4998	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 4999	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5000	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5001	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5002	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5003	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5004	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5005	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5006	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5007	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5008	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5009	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5010	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5011	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5012	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.; was Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5013	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader O.T. - was Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5014	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5015	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5016	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5017	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5018	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5019	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: re Mantua memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5020	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5021	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5022	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5023	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5024	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: re Mantua memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5025	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5026	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5027	From: Glen	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5028	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5029	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5030	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5031	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5032	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: re Mantua memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5033	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5034	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5035	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5036	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5037	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5038	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5039	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5040	From: Glen	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5041	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5042	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5043	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5044	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5045	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5046	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5047	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5048	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5049	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5050	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5051	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5052	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5053	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5054	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5055	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5056	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5057	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5058	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5059	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5060	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5061	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5062	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Mantua Memories/Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5063	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5064	From: Mary Long	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5065	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5066	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5067	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5068	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5069	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5070	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5071	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5072	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5073	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5074	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5075	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5076	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories/Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5077	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5078	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5079	From: Glen	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5080	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5081	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Snow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5082	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5083	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5084	From: Ted Walton	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Files size of last two Digest formats
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5085	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5086	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5087	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5088	From: Mary Long	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5089	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Russ's Hobby Shop
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5090	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5091	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5092	From: Glen	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Russ's Hobby Shop
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5093	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5094	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5095	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Vintage Hobby Shops
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5096	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Not so common coach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5097	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5098	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Files size of last two Digest formats
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5099	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Russ's Hobby Shop
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5100	From: Walter	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Files size of last two Digest formats
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5101	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5102	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5103	From: AL	Date: 2/3/2008
Subject: semi-OT lurker question re: varney / life-like hoppers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5104	From: erieberk	Date: 2/3/2008
Subject: Re: semi-OT lurker question re: varney / life-like hoppers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5105	From: James Derr	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Question on old HO cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5106	From: Askerberg	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Paul Moore
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5107	From: Jack Priller	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5108	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Question on old HO cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5109	From: Richard Moessner	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5110	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5111	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Paul Moore
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5112	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Paul Moore
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5113	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5114	From: Jack Priller	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5115	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5116	From: AL	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: life like / varney cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5117	From: Jack Priller	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5118	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5119	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5120	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5121	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5122	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5123	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5124	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Item For Sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5125	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Hobbytown resin shells?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5126	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5127	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5128	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5129	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5130	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5131	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5132	From: erieberk	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5133	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5134	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5135	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5136	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5137	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5138	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5139	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5140	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5141	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5142	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5143	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5144	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5145	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: PRR R1 4899
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5146	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: PRR R1 4899
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5147	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5148	From: erieberk	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5149	From: erieberk	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5150	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5151	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5152	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5153	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5154	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5155	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5156	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5157	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5158	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5159	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5160	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5161	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5162	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5163	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5164	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5165	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5166	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5167	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5168	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5169	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5170	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5171	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5172	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5173	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5174	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5175	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5176	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5177	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5178	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5179	From: louiskgreiff	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Metal Freight Car of Unknown Manufacture
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5180	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5181	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5182	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5183	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5184	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5185	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5186	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5187	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5188	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5189	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5190	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5191	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5192	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5193	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5194	From: erieberk	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Freight Car of Unknown Manufacture
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5195	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5196	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5197	From: Bill Daley	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5198	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5199	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5200	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5201	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5202	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5203	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5204	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5205	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5206	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5207	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5208	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Freight Car of Unknown Manufacture
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5209	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5210	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5211	From: Raymond Lorts Sr	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Is Raymond Your Friend? Please Respond!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5212	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Mantua transition tender ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5213	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5214	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Is Raymond Your Friend? Please Respond!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5215	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5216	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5217	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5218	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Mantua transition tender ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5219	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks (MAx Gray 2-8-2)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5220	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5221	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5222	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5223	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5224	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5225	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5226	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5227	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Is Raymond Your Friend? Please Respond!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5228	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5229	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5230	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5231	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5232	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks (MAx Gray 2-8-2)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5233	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5234	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5235	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5236	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Freight Car of Unknown Manufacture
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5237	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5238	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5239	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5240	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5241	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5242	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5243	From: oljoeoh	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5244	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5245	From: Wobbly913	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5246	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5247	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5248	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5249	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5250	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5251	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5252	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5253	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5254	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Train-Miniature Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5255	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Clean-up, odds and ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5256	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5257	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5258	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Clean-up, odds and ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5259	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5260	From: rayzef	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Max Gray
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5261	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5262	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: TRAIN MINATURE - TRAIN-MASTER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5263	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5264	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5265	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5266	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5267	From: Al Campbell	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Kar-Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5268	From: John Barlow	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5269	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5270	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5271	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5272	From: John Barlow	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5273	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5274	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5275	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5276	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5277	From: MaryAnn Obuch	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Items Forsale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5278	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5279	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5280	From: Maryann	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: HO Scale Items Forsale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5281	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5282	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5283	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: dating the Tenshodo/New One GN car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5284	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5285	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5286	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5287	From: erieberk	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5288	From: erieberk	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5289	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5290	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5291	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5292	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: GN Metal Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5293	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: GN Metal Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5294	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5295	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: GN Metal Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5296	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5297	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Kar-Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5298	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: GN Metal Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5299	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5300	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: GN Metal Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5301	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5302	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5303	From: rayzef	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: GN Boxcar 10094
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5304	From: erieberk	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5305	From: erieberk	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: GN Boxcar 10094
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5306	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5307	From: erieberk	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5308	From: erieberk	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5309	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5310	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5311	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5312	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5313	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5314	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5315	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5316	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5317	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5318	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Kadee #4s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5319	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee #4s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5320	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/14/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee #4s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5321	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/14/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee #4s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5322	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/14/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee #4s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5323	From: rayzef	Date: 2/14/2008
Subject: Re: GN Boxcar 10094
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5324	From: Tom	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5325	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5326	From: Tom	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5327	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5328	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: More HO DC Locos for sale (cleaning house again)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5329	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: More HO DC Locos for sale (cleaning house again)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5330	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: More HO DC Locos for sale (cleaning house again)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5331	From: Tom	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5332	From: mikearmadilloaviation	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: HOBBYTOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5333	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5334	From: Tom	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: More HO DC Locos for sale (cleaning house again)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5335	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5336	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5337	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5338	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5339	From: lawrencehokanson	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5340	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5341	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5342	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5343	From: Philip Martin	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5344	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5345	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5346	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5347	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5348	From: Glen	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5349	From: Glen	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5350	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5351	From: Glen	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5352	From: oahurailway	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: LaBelle Woodworking
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5353	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5354	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5355	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5356	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5357	From: mikearmadilloaviation	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: HOBBY TOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5358	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5359	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5360	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5361	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5362	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5363	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5364	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: GN Boxcar 10094
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5365	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5366	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5367	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5368	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5369	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5370	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5371	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5372	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5373	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5374	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5375	From: Tom Hare	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5376	From: erieberk	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5377	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5378	From: Tom Hare	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5379	From: Tom Hare	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5380	From: Graeme	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5381	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5382	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5383	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5384	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5385	From: erieberk	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5386	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5387	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5388	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5389	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5390	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5391	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5392	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5393	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5394	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5395	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5396	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5397	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5398	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5399	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: OT for Fred's eyes only
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5400	From: John Barlow	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits...the EBT Caboose...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5401	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5402	From: oahurailway	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5403	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Penn Line Crusader Available
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5404	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5405	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits...the EBT Caboose...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5406	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5407	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Articulated almost-ACF streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5408	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5409	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Articulated almost-ACF streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5410	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5411	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5412	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5413	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits...the EBT Caboose...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5414	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5415	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5416	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5417	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5418	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5419	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5420	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5421	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5422	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5423	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Old Trix (HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5424	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5425	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5426	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5427	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5428	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5429	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trix (HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5430	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5431	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5432	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5433	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trix (HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5434	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5435	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5436	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5437	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trix (HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5438	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5439	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5440	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5441	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5442	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5443	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5444	From: erieberk	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5445	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5446	From: erieberk	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined, was: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5447	From: erieberk	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5448	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: WRX Reefer Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5449	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5450	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5451	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trix (HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5452	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5453	From: erieberk	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5454	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5455	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5456	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5457	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5458	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: MRC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5459	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5460	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5461	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: MRC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5462	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5463	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5464	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: cardboard sides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5465	From: garyp552002	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Gilbert HO 040 Tank Locomotive
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5466	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5467	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5468	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: MRC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5469	From: topstokes	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Crusader parts and vintage brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5470	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Shakedown Run Video
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5471	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: [HO] Shakedown Run Video
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5472	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Old 1950s Stuff
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5473	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5474	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5475	From: Ted Walton	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: trimming messages again
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5476	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff - Castor
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5477	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff - Castor
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5478	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Shakedown Run Video
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5479	From: Tom	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Athearn F7 PRR Shells
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5480	From: Martin Rosenfeld	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: trimming messages again
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5481	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Shakedown Run Video
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5482	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff - Castor
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5483	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Railroad vehicles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5484	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Shakedown Run Video
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5485	From: topstokes	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Railroad vehicles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5486	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: FS: HObbyLine NKP Type Berkshire
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5487	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Canadian Cars - Metal MDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5488	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Railroad vehicles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5489	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Railroad vehicles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5490	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5491	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5492	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5493	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5494	From: cnj999	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5495	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Railroad vehicles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5496	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5497	From: curmudgeon	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5498	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5499	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5500	From: Graeme	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Tri-ang and Trix
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5501	From: Graeme	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5502	From: Graeme	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Shakedown Run Video
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5503	From: cnj999	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5504	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5505	From: holat88	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Wanted, Varney truck part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5506	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted, Varney truck part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5507	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Tri-ang and Trix
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5508	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5509	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5510	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5511	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5512	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5513	From: Walter	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5514	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5515	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5516	From: Dale Smith	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5517	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Vintage Power Packs Redux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5518	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5519	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5520	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: The Weekly Withlacoochee River Report
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5521	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: The Weekly Withlacoochee River Report
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5522	From: Neal Rammacher	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: The Weekly Withlacoochee River Report
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5523	From: Jay Matz	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Ambroid kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5524	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5525	From: jay matz	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5526	From: Mark Mathu	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5527	From: Charles	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Castor Plastics
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5528	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5529	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5530	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5531	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: E P ALEXANDER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5532	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: E P ALEXANDER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5533	From: erieberk	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5534	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5535	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5536	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5537	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: E P ALEXANDER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5538	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5539	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5540	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5541	From: Mark Mathu	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5542	From: Mark Mathu	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5543	From: erieberk	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5544	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5545	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Just saw something
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5546	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Vintage kits on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5547	From: Riverboy	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just saw something
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5548	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just saw something
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5549	From: ottsm	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: What American Flyer HO Couplers are correct?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5550	From: Gerry	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5551	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5552	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5553	From: Gerry D	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5554	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Kadee#4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5555	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee#4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5556	From: BillyDee53@aol.com	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee#4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5557	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: What American Flyer HO Couplers are correct?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5558	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee#4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5559	From: Gerry D	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5560	From: garyp552002	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive Drawing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5561	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5562	From: Walter	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: What American Flyer HO Couplers are correct?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5563	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5564	From: don stokes	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive Drawing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5565	From: Jay Matz	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Vintage web page
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5566	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage web page
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5567	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5568	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive Drawing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5569	From: ottsm	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: What American Flyer HO Couplers are correct?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5570	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5571	From: jay matz	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage web page
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5572	From: gary pardue	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive Drawing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5573	From: rcjge	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Lionel HO Husky Chassis and bottom plate sought!?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5574	From: wb3iqe	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: A small puzzle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5575	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Varney streamliners.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5576	From: Gerry D	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5577	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Re: Varney streamliners.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5578	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Gilbert, pre-X2F, die-cast metal couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5579	From: AL	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1168
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5580	From: topstokes	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1168
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5581	From: AL	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5582	From: AL	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5583	From: Riverboy	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5584	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Selling some interesting Varney items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5585	From: AL	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5586	From: topstokes	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: American Flyer 0-4-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5587	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: Selling some interesting Varney items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5588	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5589	From: BillyDee53@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5590	From: curmudgeon	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5591	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5592	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: For Varney collectors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5593	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5594	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: E P ALEXANDER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5595	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: E P ALEXANDER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5596	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5597	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Weekly Withlacoochee River Report & Resurrecting The Dinosaurs 2.1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5598	From: erieberk	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5599	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5600	From: Don Grant	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5601	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5602	From: wb3iqe	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5603	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5604	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5605	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/3/2008
Subject: Re: Just saw something
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5606	From: wb3iqe	Date: 3/3/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5607	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Resurrecting A Dinosaur With A Bit Of A Snag!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5608	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Re: Resurrecting A Dinosaur With A Bit Of A Snag!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5609	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5610	From: Gerry	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: don't that frost your cookies!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5611	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Re: Resurrecting A Dinosaur With A Bit Of A Snag!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5612	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5613	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5614	From: Don Grant	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Re: Resurrecting A Dinosaur With A Bit Of A Snag!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5615	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5616	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5617	From: wb3iqe	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5618	From: jay matz	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5619	From: jay matz	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5620	From: jay matz	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5621	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Loggers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5622	From: jay matz	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: Loggers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5623	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: Loggers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5624	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5625	From: nagrod47	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5626	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5627	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 - Gear Screw Loosening
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5628	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5629	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5630	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5631	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 RE:HOLD ON THERE!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5632	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5633	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5634	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/7/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5635	From: texpearson@AOL.com	Date: 3/7/2008
Subject: Re: Holding small screws
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5636	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/7/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 RE:HOLD ON THERE!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5637	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/7/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5638	From: erieberk	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5639	From: Rick Dorgan	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5640	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5641	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Holding small screws
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5642	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Holding small screws
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5643	From: Andrew Bell	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Mantua: locktite
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5644	From: earlyrail	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: FS Central Lines kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5645	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5646	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5647	From: FEZANDPAZ@aol.com	Date: 3/9/2008
Subject: Mantua: locktite
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5648	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/9/2008
Subject: Weekly Withlacoochee River Report
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5649	From: erieberk	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5650	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5651	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Wanted: Sample HO Passengers Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5652	From: Riverboy	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: Sample HO Passengers Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5653	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: Sample HO Passengers Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5654	From: oljoeoh	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5655	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: AHM Golden Car Series
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5656	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Golden Car Series
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5657	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: Sample HO Passengers Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5658	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5659	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5660	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5661	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5662	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5663	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5664	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5665	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5666	From: Neal Rammacher	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5667	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5668	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5669	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5670	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5671	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5672	From: erieberk	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Freight Cars, was: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5673	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5674	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5675	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5676	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5677	From: oljoe@landolls.com	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5678	From: oljoeoh	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5679	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5680	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5681	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5682	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5683	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5684	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: What's vintage (again)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5685	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: What's vintage (again)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5686	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5687	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5688	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5689	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5690	From: Mike Slater	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5691	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5692	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5693	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5694	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5695	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5696	From: Jim Snyder	Date: 3/15/2008
Subject: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5697	From: Mike	Date: 3/15/2008
Subject: Springfield Train Fair 2008 - April 6th
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5698	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Weekly Withlacoochee River Report & Resurrecting Again
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5699	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5700	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5701	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5702	From: rcjge	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5703	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5704	From: Rick Dorgan	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Mantua 4-6-2 another question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5705	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5706	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5707	From: John Barlow	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5708	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5709	From: AL	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: old varney gondola
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5710	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5711	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5712	From: John Barlow	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5713	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5714	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5715	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5716	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5717	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5718	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5719	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5720	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5721	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5722	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5723	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5724	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5725	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5726	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5727	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5728	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5729	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5730	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5731	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5732	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5733	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5734	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5735	From: erieberk	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5736	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5737	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Binkley Models ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5738	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5739	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5740	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5741	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5742	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Dave F
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5743	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Dave F - - - - Back to Charlie
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5744	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5745	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5746	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5747	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5748	From: trainliker	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5749	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5750	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5751	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5752	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5753	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5754	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Disaster, Disaster
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5755	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5756	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5757	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5758	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5759	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5760	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5761	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5762	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5763	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5764	From: Scott	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: This Thursday for you CNJ fans
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5765	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: This Thursday for you CNJ fans
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5766	From: Scott	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5767	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5768	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: Dave F - - - - Back to Charlie
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5769	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5770	From: Scott	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5771	From: Al Campbell	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5772	From: erieberk	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5773	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5774	From: keith gutshall	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5775	From: Scott	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: This Thursday for you CNJ fans
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5776	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5777	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5778	From: Martin Rosenfeld	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5779	From: jay matz	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5780	From: Scott	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5781	From: Scott	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5782	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5783	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Golden Car Series
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5784	From: keith gutshall	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5785	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5786	From: Jack Priller	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Trolley track
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5787	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: Trolley track
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5788	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Tyco Trolley Track ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5789	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: Trolley track
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5790	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5791	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5792	From: trainliker	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5793	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5794	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5795	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re,.Re: [vintageHO] Tyco Trolley Track ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5796	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5797	From: AL	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: AHM watermelon car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5798	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: AHM watermelon car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5799	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re,.Re: [vintageHO] Tyco Trolley Track ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5800	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5801	From: Don Grant	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: Trolley track
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5802	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5803	From: Frank Weed	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Trolley track
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5804	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM watermelon car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5805	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5806	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5807	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5808	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5809	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Aerotrain/ Zephyr
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5810	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Aerotrain/ Zephyr
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5811	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5812	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5813	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5814	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5815	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5816	From: Tom	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5817	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5818	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5819	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Pennline G5 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5820	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5821	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5822	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5823	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5824	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5825	From: Tom	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5826	From: AL	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: watermellon cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5827	From: erieberk	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5828	From: Tom	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5829	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5830	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5831	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5832	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5833	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5834	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5835	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5836	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5837	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5838	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5839	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5840	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5841	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5842	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Fw: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5843	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5844	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5845	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5846	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5847	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5848	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5849	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5850	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5851	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5852	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5853	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5854	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5855	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5856	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5857	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Scrap Yards and Diesel Cabs in the Basement
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5858	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5859	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Scrap Yards and Diesel Cabs in the Basement
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5860	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5861	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5862	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5863	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5864	From: trainliker	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5865	From: Scott	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: RailBox, ummmm JailBox???
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5866	From: James Bartelt	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: RailBox, ummmm JailBox???
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5867	From: Scott	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: RailBox, ummmm JailBox???
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5868	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5869	From: busgrouches	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5870	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5871	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5872	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5873	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5874	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: OOPS. Correction to message #5853
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5875	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: New File
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5876	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5877	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5878	From: Bill Daley	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5879	From: Bill Daley	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5880	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: New File
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5881	From: Frank Weed	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5882	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: New File
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5883	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5884	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5885	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5886	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5887	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5888	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5889	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5890	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5891	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5892	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5893	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5894	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5895	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5896	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5897	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5898	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5899	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5900	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5901	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5902	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5903	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5904	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5905	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5906	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Charlie: Black Marias, DL-203s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5907	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5908	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5909	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5910	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5911	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5912	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5913	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5914	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: FEC E7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5915	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: FEC E7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5916	From: Tom	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5917	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5918	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5919	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5920	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5921	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5922	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5923	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5924	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5925	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5926	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5927	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5928	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5929	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5930	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5931	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5932	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5933	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5934	From: cnj999	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5935	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5936	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5937	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5938	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5939	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5940	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5941	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5942	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5943	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5944	From: John Barlow	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5945	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5946	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5947	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5948	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5949	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5950	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5951	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5952	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5953	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5954	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5955	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5956	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5957	From: Martin Rosenfeld	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5958	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Limited Edition Passenger Car follow-up
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5959	From: AL	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5960	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Vintage HO and DCC -- was: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5961	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5962	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Weekly (Very Weakly), Withlacoochee River Report
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5963	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5964	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5965	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5966	From: Dst8596587@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5967	From: erieberk	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5968	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5969	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5970	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5971	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5972	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5973	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5974	From: Wobbly913	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5975	From: cnj999	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5976	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5977	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: New Thread"Beating Dead Horse"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5978	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5979	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Gary
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5980	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Gary - P1K F3s gears
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5981	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5982	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5983	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Gary
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5984	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5985	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5986	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5987	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5988	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Gary
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5989	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5990	From: AL	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5991	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5992	From: AL	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1202
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5993	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5994	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5995	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Chuck K
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5996	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5997	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5998	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Chuck K
Group: vintageHO	Message: 5999	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6000	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6001	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Chuck K
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6002	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1202
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6003	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6004	From: Dale Hokanson	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6005	From: Morgan Smith	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: prices
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6006	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6007	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6008	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Reply to Gerold
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6009	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: El Capitan memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6010	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6011	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6012	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6013	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: For Sale: Vintage HO "old time" autos (Rare)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6014	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: For Sale: Mantua 0-4-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6015	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6016	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6017	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Chuck K
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6018	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6019	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6020	From: James B	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: HO brass locomotive Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6021	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6022	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6023	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6024	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6025	From: morgantownrr	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: value of crane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6026	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6027	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6028	From: James Bartelt	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6029	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6030	From: Wobbly913	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6031	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6032	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6033	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: Re: HO brass locomotive Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6034	From: AL	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: train club auction finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6035	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: Brass locoomotive question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6036	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: HO brass locomotive Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6037	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Mantua memories ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6039	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: Re: prices Stop making stupid statements
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6040	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6041	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: HO brass locomotive Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6042	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6043	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6044	From: legiscircenses1	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Varney metal streamliner passenger car couplers.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6045	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6046	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Varney metal streamliner passenger car couplers.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6047	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6048	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: HO brass locomotive Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6049	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6050	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: train club auction finds - trucks for Central Lines kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6051	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6052	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6053	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6054	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6055	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6056	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6057	From: John Barlow	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Seconding Vinegar (Was: HO brass locomotive Question)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6058	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Seconding Vinegar (Was: HO brass locomotive Question)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6059	From: Ted Walton	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6060	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6061	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6062	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: train club auction finds - trucks for Central Lines kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6063	From: Stephen Lengal	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6064	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6065	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6066	From: Wobbly913	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6067	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Central Lines kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6068	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6069	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6070	From: Al Campbell	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6071	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6072	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6073	From: BillyDee53@aol.com	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6074	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6075	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6076	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6077	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 4/4/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6078	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6079	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6080	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6081	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6082	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6083	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6084	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6085	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6086	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Revell building kits (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6087	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: The Resurrection Continues
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6088	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Revell building kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6089	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6090	From: Rick Jones	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6091	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6092	From: Charles Windes	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: The Resurrection Continues Re
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6093	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6094	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6095	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6096	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: JAPANESE VARNEY?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6097	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/7/2008
Subject: Re: The Resurrection Continues Re
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6098	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/7/2008
Subject: Re: The Resurrection Continues Re
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6099	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/7/2008
Subject: Re: The Resurrection Continues Re
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6100	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Hello!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6101	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6102	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: We Finally Finished It
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6103	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6104	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6105	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6106	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6107	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6108	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6109	From: Riverboy	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Help In Identifying Manufacturers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6110	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6111	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6112	From: Riverboy	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6113	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6114	From: Riverboy	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6115	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6116	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6117	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6118	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6119	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6120	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6121	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: American Beauty passenger car truck kits -3 pr.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6122	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6123	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6124	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Note for Tim Jones, Galesburg, IL
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6125	From: michael rapp, sr	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: 2 Train Club Open Houses Combined!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6126	From: louis niederlander	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: vintage HO cardboard kit houses
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6127	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6128	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: 2 Train Club Open Houses Combined!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6129	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6130	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6131	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6132	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6133	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6134	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6135	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6136	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: vintage HO cardboard kit houses
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6137	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Clinic handout
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6138	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6139	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6140	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Clinic handout
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6141	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6142	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/14/2008
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6143	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6144	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6145	From: almangani	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6146	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6147	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6148	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6149	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6150	From: AL	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: HELP - Quality Craft tri-level auto rack car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6151	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: HELP - Quality Craft tri-level auto rack car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6152	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Holgate & Reynolds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6153	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Holgate & Reynolds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6154	From: Philip Martin	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Holgate & Reynolds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6155	From: Don Grant	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6156	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: HELP - Quality Craft tri-level auto rack car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6157	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Holgate & Reynolds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6158	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6159	From: Jim McClenin	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Looking For
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6160	From: almangani	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6161	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Re: Looking For
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6162	From: Jim McClenin	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Re: Looking For
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6163	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/17/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6164	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/19/2008
Subject: Resurrecting The Dinosaurs Episode 4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6165	From: Al Campbell	Date: 4/21/2008
Subject: MDC 3 bay B&LE o/s hoppers.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6166	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2008
Subject: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6167	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 4/21/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6168	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6169	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6170	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: MDC B&LE 3 bay hoppers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6171	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6172	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6173	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6174	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6175	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6176	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6177	From: Bill Wright	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: MDC 3 bay B&LE o/s hoppers.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6178	From: lvtrainmeet	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Model Train meet May 17th and 18th Allentown Pa Off I-78
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6179	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6180	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6181	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6182	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6183	From: michael rapp, sr	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Train Club Open House!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6184	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6185	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6186	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6187	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6188	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6189	From: Rick Jones	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6190	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: Train Club Open House!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6191	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6192	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6193	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6194	From: oljoeoh	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6195	From: oljoeoh	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6196	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6197	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6198	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6199	From: oljoeoh	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6200	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6201	From: Walter	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6202	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6203	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6204	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6205	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6206	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6207	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6208	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: She is round the bend
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6209	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6210	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6211	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She is round the bend
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6212	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She is round the bend
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6213	From: Charles Windes	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6214	From: oljoeoh	Date: 4/24/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6215	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 4/24/2008
Subject: MDC 3 bay B&LE o/s hoppers.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6216	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 4/25/2008
Subject: MDC B&LE hoppers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6217	From: patikabeadworks	Date: 5/1/2008
Subject: help newbie here
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6218	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/1/2008
Subject: Re: help newbie here
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6219	From: Jack Priller	Date: 5/2/2008
Subject: MDC 2-Truck Shay kit #360
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6220	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/2/2008
Subject: Re: MDC 2-Truck Shay kit #360
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6221	From: sswcharlie	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6222	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6223	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6224	From: Steven Winter	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6225	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6226	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6227	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6228	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6229	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6230	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6231	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6232	From: C. Larry Bowen	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6233	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6234	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6235	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6236	From: John Plott	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6237	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6238	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6239	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Another Done Resurrection, the 4-6-2 Project
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6240	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6241	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6242	From: johnbo67	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: HO Model Help Needed
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6243	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: HO Model Help Needed
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6244	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6245	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6246	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: HO Model Help Needed
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6247	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6248	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6249	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6250	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6251	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6252	From: Steven Winter	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6253	From: Al Campbell	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Mogul Ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6254	From: Dale Smith	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6255	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6256	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6257	From: bayerw@comcast.net	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6258	From: Joe Mitchell	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6259	From: raymarinaccio	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6260	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6261	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 5/6/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6262	From: Don Grant	Date: 5/9/2008
Subject: Dummy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6263	From: sswcharlie	Date: 5/11/2008
Subject: Rivarossi HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6264	From: sswcharlie	Date: 5/11/2008
Subject: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6265	From: lvtrainmeet	Date: 5/13/2008
Subject: Good Train meet This weekend Allentown Pa off I-78
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6266	From: Gerry	Date: 5/15/2008
Subject: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6267	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6268	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6269	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6270	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6271	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6272	From: Gerry D	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6273	From: cb0201	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Looking for contributors with good knowledge of vintage railway mode
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6274	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6275	From: Rick Jones	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6276	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 5/17/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6277	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/17/2008
Subject: Chuck Re: [vintageHO] Not exactly related, but.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6278	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/17/2008
Subject: A Few Pix
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6279	From: Gerry D	Date: 5/20/2008
Subject: For what it's worth or a Hot Tip, you decide!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6280	From: Graeme	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6281	From: Morgan Smith	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: For what it's worth or a Hot Tip, you decide!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6282	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6283	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6284	From: Graeme	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6285	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6286	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6287	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6288	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6289	From: Don Grant	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6290	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/22/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6291	From: Graeme	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6292	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: ID loco..please.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6293	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6294	From: Steven Winter	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6295	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6296	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6297	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6298	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6299	From: Chris B	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6300	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6301	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 5/24/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6302	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/25/2008
Subject: Parts needed
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6303	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 5/25/2008
Subject: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6304	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6305	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6306	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6307	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6308	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6309	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Athearn Metal Timken Red Boxcar Decals
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6310	From: erieberk	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Timken Red Boxcar Decals
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6311	From: Bill Daley	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Class lights
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6312	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Re: Class lights
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6313	From: Rick Jones	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Re: Class lights
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6314	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Timken Red Boxcar Decals
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6315	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 5/30/2008
Subject: Re: Class lights
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6316	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 5/31/2008
Subject: Re: Class lights
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6317	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/3/2008
Subject: Re: [mdcroundhouse] proper name
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6318	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/5/2008
Subject: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6319	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/5/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6320	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6321	From: jbark76	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6322	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6323	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6324	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6325	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6326	From: Riverboy	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6327	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6328	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Question about some old streamline passeger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6329	From: Riverboy	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6330	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Another pass car question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6331	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6332	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6333	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeg
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6334	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Replacing Wheels in 1940-1941 Prod. Gilbert Coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6335	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6336	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: more watermelon cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6337	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeg
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6338	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/8/2008
Subject: Thanks! was: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6339	From: greendoddz	Date: 6/12/2008
Subject: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6340	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6341	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6342	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6343	From: rcjge	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6344	From: jbark76	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Globe Boxcar Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6345	From: Walter	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6346	From: greendoddz	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6347	From: greendoddz	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6348	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6349	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6350	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6351	From: greendoddz	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6352	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6353	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6354	From: jay matz	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6355	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Globe Boxcar Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6356	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6357	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Globe Boxcar Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6358	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6359	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6360	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6361	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6362	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6363	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6364	From: jbark76	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Globe Boxcar Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6365	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: LED LIGHTING
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6366	From: jbark76	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: LED LIGHTING
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6367	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6368	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6369	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6370	From: wallagus	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6371	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6372	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6373	From: Phillip VanderHeyden	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6374	From: Gerry D	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: LED LIGHTING
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6375	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6376	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6377	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6378	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6379	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6380	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6381	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/15/2008
Subject: The Withlacoochee River Report
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6382	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6383	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6384	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6385	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6386	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6387	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6388	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6389	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6390	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6391	From: Dave Royer	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6392	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6393	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6394	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6395	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: A bit off topic and I kinda hate to post it, but this is Your congre
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6396	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6397	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6398	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6399	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6400	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6401	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6402	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6403	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6404	From: wallagus	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6405	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6406	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6407	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6408	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6409	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6410	From: erieberk	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6411	From: erieberk	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6412	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6413	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Rs:Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was:
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6414	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6415	From: erieberk	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich, was -- Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6416	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6417	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6418	From: trainliker	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6419	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6420	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6421	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6422	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6423	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6424	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6425	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6426	From: John Barlow	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6427	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6428	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6429	From: Don Grant	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6430	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6431	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6432	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6433	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6434	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6435	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6436	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6437	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6438	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6439	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6440	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6441	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6442	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6443	From: Lacera Anne	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: instructions
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6444	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6445	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, Listing, pg .3
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6446	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6447	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6448	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6449	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6450	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6451	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6452	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6453	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich, was -- Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6454	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6455	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6456	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6457	From: erieberk	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6458	From: erieberk	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich, was -- Mantua
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6459	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6460	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6461	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6462	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6463	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6464	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6465	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Meet At Mt Union
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6466	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6467	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6468	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6469	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6470	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6471	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: OT - Re: [vintageHO] A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6472	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6473	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: OT - Re: [vintageHO] A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6474	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6475	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6476	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Athearn RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6477	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6478	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: New aquisitions
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6479	From: Wobbly913	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6480	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/23/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6481	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/23/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6482	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/23/2008
Subject: Edging back to ON TOPIC - Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6483	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 6/23/2008
Subject: Edging back to ON TOPIC - Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6484	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6485	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: traction tires
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6486	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6487	From: erieberk	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6488	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6489	From: erieberk	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6490	From: Steven Winter	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6491	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Fwd: Something new in HO, & some announcements for S/O/N as well !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6492	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6493	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6494	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6495	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6496	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6497	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6498	From: erieberk	Date: 6/25/2008
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6499	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/25/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6500	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/26/2008
Subject: My Newest V Scale Railroad
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6501	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 6/26/2008
Subject: Re: My Newest V Scale Railroad
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6502	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: My Newest V Scale Railroad
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6503	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Streamlined PRR K-4s (1940 version)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6504	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: 60s era brass factory pix.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6505	From: oahurailway	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6506	From: tcolret	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6507	From: jerrygart5	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6508	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6509	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6510	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6511	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6512	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6513	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6514	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6515	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6516	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6517	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6518	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6519	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6520	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6521	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6522	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6523	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6524	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6525	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6526	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Ambroid Glue
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6527	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6528	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6529	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6530	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue Subsitutes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6531	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6532	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6533	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6534	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6535	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6536	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6537	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6538	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6539	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6540	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6541	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6542	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6543	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6544	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6545	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6546	From: holat88	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Hobbytown Alco kit info request
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6547	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Alco kit info request
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6548	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6549	From: Chris B	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Alco kit info request
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6550	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6551	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6552	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6553	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6554	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6555	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6556	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6557	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6558	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6559	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6560	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Slightly O.T., was Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6561	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6562	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: RE:[vintageHO] Re: Walthers list
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6563	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6564	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6565	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Identify a car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6566	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6567	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Identify a car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6568	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Identify a car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6569	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6570	From: erieberk	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides Passenger Car Kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6571	From: erieberk	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re{ JC Silver Sides Passenger Car Kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6572	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6573	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6574	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6575	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re{ JC Silver Sides Passenger Car Kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6576	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6577	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6578	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6579	From: James Bartelt	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6580	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6581	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6582	From: James Bartelt	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6583	From: James Bartelt	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6584	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6585	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6586	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6587	From: erieberk	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6588	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List, was JC Silver Sides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6589	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6590	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List, Additions (Continued)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6591	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List, Additions (continued)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6592	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List -- 7800's Series Additions
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6593	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers 7800 Series Additions (continued)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6594	From: Jack Priller	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Tin-plate HO?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6595	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re; Walthers 7800 Series Additions, Continued
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6596	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6597	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers 7800 Series Additions, Wrap-Up
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6598	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6599	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: MYSTERY HOPPER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6600	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Railmaster (?), was MYSTERY HOPPER
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6601	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re; Walthers 7800 Series Additions, Continued
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6602	From: Howard	Date: 7/2/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Alco kit info request
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6603	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/2/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6604	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/2/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6605	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 7/3/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6606	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/3/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6607	From: erieberk	Date: 7/3/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6608	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/4/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6609	From: erieberk	Date: 7/4/2008
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6610	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/4/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6611	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/4/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6612	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Interesting find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6613	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: latest add
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6614	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Re: Interesting find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6615	From: Rick Jones	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Re: latest add
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6616	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Re: Interesting find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6617	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Re: latest add
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6618	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Interesting find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6619	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Prowler's New K28
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6620	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Interesting find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6621	From: Rick Jones	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: latest add
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6622	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Reading Crusader
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6623	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6624	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6625	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6626	From: Maynard Keith Franklin	Date: 7/9/2008
Subject: Old Athearn Metal RDC's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6627	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/9/2008
Subject: FW: A Fleisch in the Penn?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6628	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn Metal RDC's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6629	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Over The High Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6630	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Over The High Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6631	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Need to Find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6632	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Need to Find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6633	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Need to Find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6634	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Need to Find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6635	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Over The High Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6636	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Over The High Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6637	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 7/14/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6638	From: erieberk	Date: 7/15/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6639	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/15/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6640	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6641	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6642	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6643	From: erieberk	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6644	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6645	From: erieberk	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6646	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6647	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6648	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6649	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6650	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6651	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6652	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6653	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6654	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6655	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6656	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6657	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/18/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6658	From: erieberk	Date: 7/18/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6659	From: jay matz	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6660	From: erieberk	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6661	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6662	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: 72" drivers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6663	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6664	From: erieberk	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6665	From: erieberk	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: 72" drivers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6666	From: jay matz	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6667	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: 72" drivers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6668	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: The Mystery engine has sprung drivers!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6669	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: The Mystery engine has sprung drivers!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6670	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/20/2008
Subject: Varney celluloid coaches
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6671	From: jbark76	Date: 7/23/2008
Subject: Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6672	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/23/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6673	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/23/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6674	From: cnj999	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6675	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6676	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6677	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6678	From: Tertius Coetzee	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6679	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6680	From: jbark76	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6681	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6682	From: John Barlow	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6683	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6684	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6685	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Mantua 00 Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6686	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6687	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6688	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6689	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6690	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6691	From: jay matz	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6692	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6693	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6694	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6695	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6696	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6697	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6698	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6699	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6700	From: Wobbly913	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6701	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6702	From: erieberk	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6703	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6704	From: Tom	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Rivarossi Heisler
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6705	From: Tom	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Rivarossi Heisler
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6706	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6707	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6708	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Heisler
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6709	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Porter Mogul; Was, Mantua 00 scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6710	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6711	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6712	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6713	From: John Barlow	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6714	From: Lee	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6715	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6716	From: erieberk	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6717	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6718	From: Martin Rosenfeld	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6719	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6720	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6721	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6722	From: cnj999	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6723	From: John Barlow	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6724	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Porter Mogul; Was, Mantua 00 scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6725	From: erieberk	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6726	From: jbark76	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6727	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6728	From: C. Larry Bowen	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Repowering MDC Steam
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6729	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Repowering MDC Steam
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6730	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6731	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Repowering MDC Steam
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6732	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Repowering MDC Steam
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6733	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6734	From: erieberk	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6735	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6736	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6737	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6738	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6739	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6740	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6741	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6742	From: erieberk	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: MAIN LINE MODELS, Was: INTERESTING LIFE LI
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6743	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6744	From: erieberk	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6745	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: MAIN LINE MODELS, Was: INTERESTI
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6746	From: erieberk	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6747	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: RailMaster National Plate Glass Covered Hopper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6748	From: erieberk	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER, Continued -- by Ray Wetzel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6749	From: erieberk	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER, Continued -- by Ray Wetzel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6750	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6751	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6752	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6753	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6754	From: rny11	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6755	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6756	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6757	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6758	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6759	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6760	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6761	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6762	From: erieberk	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models by Ray Wetzel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6763	From: erieberk	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models, by Ray Wetzel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6764	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6765	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vin
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6766	From: Rick Jones	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Re: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6767	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Re: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6768	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Re: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6769	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Re: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6770	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/3/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models, by Ray Wetzel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6771	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/4/2008
Subject: Mystery passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6772	From: erieberk	Date: 8/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6773	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6774	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6775	From: erieberk	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6776	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6777	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: introduce myself
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6778	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6779	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6780	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6781	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6782	From: erieberk	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6783	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Thanks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6784	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6785	From: erieberk	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6786	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6787	From: rcjge	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Varney Super Consolie parts sought?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6788	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6789	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolie parts sought?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6790	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6791	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6792	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6793	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6794	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6795	From: rcjge	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6796	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6797	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Types of Varney motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6798	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: must add reason for V-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6799	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6800	From: rcjge	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6801	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Types of Varney motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6802	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6803	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6804	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Varney Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6805	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: V-1 aftermath fix
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6806	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: humbled and corrected
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6807	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: humbled and corrected
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6808	From: Gerry D	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6809	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Thanks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6810	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6811	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: V-1 aftermath fix
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6812	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: humbled and corrected
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6813	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Motor Clarifications Cont'd, was: humbled and corrected
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6814	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: What is vintage? (was Re: [vintageHO] introduce myself)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6815	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6816	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6817	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Senior moment
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6818	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6819	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself - Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6820	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Fwd: [EarlyRail] NWSL-going-going-gone to new owner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6821	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6822	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Super Scale correction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6823	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Senior moment
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6824	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Senior moment
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6825	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6826	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Caboose
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6827	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6828	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6829	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Super Scale and trading info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6830	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Possibility Exists
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6831	From: John Barlow	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Possibility Exists
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6832	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6833	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Possibility Exists
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6834	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6835	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6836	From: John Barlow	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6837	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6838	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6839	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Varney passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6840	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6841	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6842	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Northerns, was: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6843	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale and trading info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6844	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6845	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Slightly OT Need your input
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6846	From: erieberk	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6847	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Ulrich Production
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6848	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Trading Info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6849	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Trading Info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6850	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6851	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6852	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6853	From: Gerry D	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Trading Info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6854	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6855	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6856	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6857	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6858	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6859	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6860	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Slightly OT Need your input
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6861	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Pre-War Varney leaf spring
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6862	From: erieberk	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Ulrich Production
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6863	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: convertinig VHS to DVD
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6864	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6865	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: sending email off line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6866	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6867	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6868	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6869	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6870	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: I need help w/ my All-weather Mantua 2-6-0 Kitbash project.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6871	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6872	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6873	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6874	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6875	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6876	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Trading Info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6877	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale and trading info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6878	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: site rules for off line info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6879	From: Gerry D	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: convertinig VHS to DVD
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6880	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6881	From: Howard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Mantua "Coast Daylight" engine question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6882	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: convertinig VHS to DVD
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6883	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6884	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6885	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6886	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Trading Info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6887	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6888	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6889	From: Gerry D	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6890	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6891	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6892	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6893	From: erieberk	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6894	From: erieberk	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6895	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6896	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6897	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6898	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6899	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6900	From: erieberk	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6901	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6902	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Varney Passenger Cars?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6903	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6904	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6905	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6906	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6907	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6908	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6909	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6910	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6911	From: Don Grant	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6912	From: Rick Jones	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6913	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6914	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6915	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6916	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6917	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6918	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: site rules for off line info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6919	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Restoring Walthers cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6920	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Restoring Walthers cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6921	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6922	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6923	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: DMC ? Dallas Model Craft
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6924	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6925	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6926	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Exacta/ Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6927	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6928	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Exacta/ Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6929	From: rw_hinsen	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Athern metal cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6930	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6931	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Varney celluloid sided NYC paint scheme
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6932	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Restoring Walthers cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6933	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Restoring Walthers cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6934	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: DMC ? Dallas Model Craft
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6935	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athern metal cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6936	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Restoring Walthers cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6937	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athern metal cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6938	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athern metal cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6939	From: rcjge	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Post-War Mantua Atlantic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6940	From: sean naylor	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Post-War Mantua Atlantic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6941	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Winton Allegeheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6942	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6943	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid sided NYC paint scheme
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6944	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid sided NYC paint scheme
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6945	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: other Winton engine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6946	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Winton Allegeheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6947	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6948	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6949	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6950	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Varney Celluloid NYC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6951	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: other Winton engine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6952	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6953	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6954	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: other Winton engine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6955	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: other Winton engine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6956	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Trackside Specialties O-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6957	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6958	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties O-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6959	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6960	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6961	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties O-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6962	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6963	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6964	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Sampson pass cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6965	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Sampson pass cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6966	From: erieberk	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Sampson pass cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6967	From: erieberk	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Sampson pass cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6968	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: erroneous Sampson pass cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6969	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6970	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6971	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6972	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Trackside Specialties P5a
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6973	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6974	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6975	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6976	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6977	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6978	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6979	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6980	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6981	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6982	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6983	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6984	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6985	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6986	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6987	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Fw: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6988	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Special message to Ray W
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6989	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Special message to Ray W
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6990	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6991	From: Tom	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Penn Line Crusader Trailing Truck
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6992	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Post-War Mantua Atlantic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6993	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Penn Line Reading Crusader
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6994	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6995	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6996	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6997	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6998	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 6999	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7000	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7001	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/17/2008
Subject: knapp pre war Mountain
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7002	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Reading Crusader
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7003	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Re: knapp pre war Mountain
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7004	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Knapp Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7005	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Re: knapp pre war Mountain
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7006	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Knapp versus Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7007	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Re: knapp pre war Mountain
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7008	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Re: WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7009	From: Garry Spear	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Help with eBay Car ID
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7010	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Knapp Passenger Cars - Exacta package arrived
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7011	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Knapp Passenger Cars - Exacta package arrived
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7012	From: erieberk	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Help with eBay Car ID
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7013	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Harris & Matteucci
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7014	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Knapp Passenger Cars - Exacta package arrived
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7015	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Where Infomation comes from
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7016	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Knapp Passenger Cars - Exacta package arrived
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7017	From: Garry Spear	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Help with eBay Car ID
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7018	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7019	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Schrader EP-4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7020	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Hobbies Inc.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7021	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbies Inc.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7022	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbies Inc.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7023	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Revell 1961 Chryslers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7024	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Revell 1961 Chryslers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7025	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Hobbies Inc.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7026	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbies Inc.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7027	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Revell 1961 Chryslers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7028	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: program failure
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7029	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Re: Revell 1961 Chryslers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7030	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Schrader GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7031	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Re: Schrader GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7032	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Varney 4-8-4 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7033	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7034	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7035	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7036	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Boxes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7037	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7038	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7039	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: plans for FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7040	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: FAMOCO correction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7041	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7042	From: trainjerr	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7043	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Varney's Electric.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7044	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7045	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7046	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: JL Models Bascule bridge kit plans
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7047	From: trainjerr	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: Varney's Electric.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7048	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: Varney's Electric.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7049	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: DIY Pantograph
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7050	From: oljoeoh	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7051	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: JL Models Bascule bridge kit plans
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7052	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: FAMOCO B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7053	From: John Barlow	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: JL Models Bascule bridge kit plans
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7054	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO B-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7055	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: DIY Pantograph
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7056	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7057	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7058	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Empire Midland tunnel motor
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7059	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7060	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7061	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7062	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: penn Line eyewitness
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7063	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: Pittman "Bride and Groom"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7064	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7065	From: oljoe@landolls.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7066	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7067	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7068	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7069	From: oljoe@landolls.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7070	From: rcjge	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Wow, NIB Varney GG1! OK, it's likely a Penn Line?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7071	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7072	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Newly Found Varney tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7073	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7074	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7075	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7076	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7077	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7078	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7079	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7080	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Material Ray sent
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7081	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7082	From: morgantownrr	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7083	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7084	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: HOTCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7085	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: HOTCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7086	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7087	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Harry J. Garrett, was -Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7088	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7089	From: oljoeoh	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: HOTCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7090	From: rcjge	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7091	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7092	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7093	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: Harry J. Garrett, was -Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7094	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: GARCO PRODUCTS cast by A&S
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7095	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: More GARCO PRODUCTS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7096	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7097	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: GARCO AGAIN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7098	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: More GARCO PRODUCTS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7099	From: Chris B	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: GARCO AGAIN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7100	From: Chris B	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: GARCO AGAIN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7101	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: GARCO AGAIN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7102	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: More GARCO PRODUCTS
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7103	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7104	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7105	From: Chris B	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7106	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7107	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7108	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7109	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7110	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7111	From: oljoeoh	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7112	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7113	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7114	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7115	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7116	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7117	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7118	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7119	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7120	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7121	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7122	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7123	From: commodore_vanderberry	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7124	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7125	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7126	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7127	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7128	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7129	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7130	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7131	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Dallas Model Craft
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7132	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7133	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: compare side frames
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7134	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7135	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Harry J. Garrett, was -Varney Yellowstone
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7136	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7137	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: shows, list vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7138	From: Graeme	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7139	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7140	From: Riverboy	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7141	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7142	From: Graeme	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7143	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7144	From: Riverboy	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7145	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7146	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: compare side frames
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7147	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7148	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7149	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7150	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7151	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7152	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7153	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7154	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7155	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7156	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7157	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: add to DMC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7158	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7159	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7160	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7161	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7162	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7163	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7164	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7165	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7166	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7167	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7168	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7169	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7170	From: Graeme	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7171	From: Graeme	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7172	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7173	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7174	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7175	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7176	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7177	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7178	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7179	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7180	From: Graeme	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7181	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7182	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7183	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: DMC E unit 2nd type
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7184	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7185	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7186	From: Chris B	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7187	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7188	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7189	From: Chris B	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7190	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7191	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7192	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7193	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7194	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7195	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7196	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7197	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7198	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7199	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Fwd: [sherline] News: Oso has acquired NorthWest Short Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7200	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Northwest Shortline
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7201	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7202	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7203	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7204	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Dallas Model Craft FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7205	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7206	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7207	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7208	From: Chris B	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7209	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7210	From: Chris B	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7211	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7212	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7213	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7214	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7215	From: Steven Winter	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7216	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7217	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7218	From: John Barlow	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7219	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Last of Dallas Model Craft
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7220	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7221	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7222	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7223	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7224	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7225	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7226	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7227	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7228	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Lawrence Labs GP-7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7229	From: Rick Jones	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7230	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Fw: Lawrence Labs GP-7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7231	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7232	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7233	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7234	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7235	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7236	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7237	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7238	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7239	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7240	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7241	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7242	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7243	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7244	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7245	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7246	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7247	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lawrence Labs GP-7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7248	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7249	From: Steven Winter	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7250	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7251	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7252	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7253	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7254	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7255	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7256	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7257	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7258	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7259	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7260	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7261	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7262	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7263	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7264	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7265	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7266	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7267	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7268	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7269	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7270	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7271	From: Bill Wright	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7272	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7273	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7274	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7275	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7276	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7277	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lawrence Labs GP-7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7278	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Administrative note:
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7279	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Administrative note:
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7280	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7281	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Administrative note:
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7282	From: jay matz	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7283	From: john huffman	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Administrative note:
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7284	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7285	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lawrence Labs GP-7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7286	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7287	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Can you guess ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7288	From: Bill Daley	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7289	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7290	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7291	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7292	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7293	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7294	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7295	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Administrative note:
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7296	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7297	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7298	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7299	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7300	From: sean naylor	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7301	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7302	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7303	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7304	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7305	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7306	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7307	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Tender by who ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7308	From: Rick Jones	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7309	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7310	From: Maynard Keith Franklin	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Lawrence Labs GP-7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7311	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Can you guess ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7312	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7313	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7314	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7315	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: 4-4-2 sold by both
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7316	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Can you guess ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7317	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7318	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7319	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Can you guess ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7320	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7321	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7322	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7323	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Fw: [1-87scalevehiclesales] I checked this with Yahoo and you can se
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7324	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: New One Mikado Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7325	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: 4-4-2 sold by both
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7326	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7327	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7328	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7329	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: New One 4-6-0 GHC Camelback
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7330	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7331	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7332	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: New One 0-4-0 Camelback(s) ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7333	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7334	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: [1-87scalevehiclesales] I checked this with Yahoo and you ca
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7335	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7336	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan... Hobbytown/English/Hobbline confusion
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7337	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7338	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7339	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7340	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7341	From: Lee	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7342	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7343	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: 2 Mint New One Engines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7344	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Crescent powered E unit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7345	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7346	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7347	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan... Hobbytown/English/Hobbline confusion
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7348	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7349	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7350	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7351	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: A Sad Site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7352	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: clarify one point
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7353	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: New Vids of Trainz
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7354	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7355	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: J S Cambron PA & PB
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7356	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7357	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7358	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: TM Train Minatures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7359	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: TM Train Minatures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7360	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7361	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7362	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: TM Train Minatures
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7363	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7364	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7365	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7366	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7367	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Fw: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7368	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7369	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7370	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7371	From: morgantownrr	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7372	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7373	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7374	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Alco FA-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7375	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Reply to Gerold
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7376	From: jay matz	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7377	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Reply to Gerold
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7378	From: Chris B	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7379	From: Chris B	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7380	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7381	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7382	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7383	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7384	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7385	From: ron plyler	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: New to group
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7386	From: morgantownrr	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7387	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7388	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Barr Nixon
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7389	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7390	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7391	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7392	From: Steven Winter	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7393	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7394	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7395	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Spring belts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7396	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7397	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7398	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7399	From: Nick	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7400	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7401	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: 090 Varney Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7402	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: must add to 090
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7403	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7404	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7405	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7406	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7407	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7408	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7409	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: PRR GG1 Tetsudo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7410	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7411	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: PRR GG1 Tetsudo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7412	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: computer and date problem
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7413	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage Again
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7414	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7415	From: Steven Winter	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: computer and date problem
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7416	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: computer and date problem
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7417	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7418	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7419	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: New to group
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7420	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: 090 Varney pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7421	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7422	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7423	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7424	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Fwd: [vintageHO] Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7425	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: computer and date problem
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7426	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7427	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7428	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7429	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7430	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Fwd: [vintageHO] Laconia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7431	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7432	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7433	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7434	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7435	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7436	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7437	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7438	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7439	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7440	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7441	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: More Pics
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7442	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7443	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7444	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7445	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7446	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7447	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: 2nd Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7448	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7449	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7450	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7451	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7452	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7453	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7454	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7455	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7456	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7457	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7458	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage Part 2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7459	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Fw: [oscaletrains] Link
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7460	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7461	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: New One GHC 2nd type 0-4-0 Camelback
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7462	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7463	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7464	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7465	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7466	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7467	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7468	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7469	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7470	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7471	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7472	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7473	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7474	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7475	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7476	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7477	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage Part 2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7478	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7479	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Gilbert DL600 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7480	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7481	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7482	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Latin (was): Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7483	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7484	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7485	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7486	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7487	From: ron_tallyho	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7488	From: Jack Priller	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: FYI: eBay vendor
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7489	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7490	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7491	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7492	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Pennsylvania Scale Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7493	From: Garry Spear	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7494	From: Garry Spear	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: FS: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7495	From: lvtrainmeet	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Train Meet this weekend in Allentown Pa
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7496	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7497	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7498	From: Don Grant	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7499	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7500	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: FS: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7501	From: Garry Spear	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7502	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7503	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7504	From: magnoliastation	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7505	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Authenticast vs. Comet slag cars ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7506	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7507	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Better Pics Aristo Rossi 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7508	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7509	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7510	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7511	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7512	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Rivarossi FM C Liner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7513	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FM C Liner (translate)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7514	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FM C Liner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7515	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FM C Liner (translate)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7516	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7517	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Rivarossi FM
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7518	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7519	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7520	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7521	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7522	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7523	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7524	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: PING Jim Heckard
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7525	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7526	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7527	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7528	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: PING Jim Heckard
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7529	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7530	From: oahurailway	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7531	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: BL2 repaint
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7532	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FM C Liner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7533	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Early Walthers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7534	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Early Walthers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7535	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Early Walthers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7536	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Early Walthers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7537	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7538	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7539	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7540	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7541	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Walther's ALCO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7542	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's ALCO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7543	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Early Walthers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7544	From: Al Campbell	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Seaboard Hopper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7545	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Seaboard Hopper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7546	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Seaboard Hopper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7547	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: BL2 repaint
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7548	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Seaboard Hopper
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7549	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7550	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7551	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7552	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7553	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's ALCO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7554	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Walther's Birney Trolley
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7555	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Walther's "Shuttle Jack"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7556	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7557	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7558	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7559	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7560	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7561	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's Birney Trolley
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7562	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7563	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7564	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Fwd: Vintage H0 Layout Tape -- Varney Vandy Tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7565	From: Chris B	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7566	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7567	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Varney Vandy Tender Questions
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7568	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7569	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7570	From: Chris B	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7571	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: How to do varnished wood ??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7572	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's Birney Trolley
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7573	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7574	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7575	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Walthers/Taylor Baltic 4-6-4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7576	From: Bill Wright	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: How to do varnished wood ??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7577	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: John English 2-8-0 castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7578	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers/Taylor Baltic 4-6-4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7579	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Varney Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7580	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: MaRa 2-6-6-6 Allegeheny parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7581	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Varney Vanderbilt Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7582	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7583	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7584	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Varney Bronze Pre War Vanderbilt tender ??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7585	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7586	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7587	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7588	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7589	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7590	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: bidding secrets
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7591	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7592	From: bitlerisvj	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Vic's Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7593	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Vic's Vintage
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7594	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7595	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7596	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7597	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7598	From: Riverboy	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7599	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Varney 200 Consy, 300 Mikado
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7600	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: VarneyC&NW Oservation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7601	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7602	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7603	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7604	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7605	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Bronze Pre War Vanderbilt tender ??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7606	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7607	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7608	From: Riverboy	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7609	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 200 Consy, 300 Mikado
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7610	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7611	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7612	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7613	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7614	From: Riverboy	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7615	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7616	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7617	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers/Taylor Baltic 4-6-4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7618	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Baltic 4-6-4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7619	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7620	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Baltic 4-6-4
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7621	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7622	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7623	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7624	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: need ideas or help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7625	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7626	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: an addition to collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7627	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: need ideas or help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7628	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: need ideas or help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7629	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: need ideas or help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7630	From: Don Grant	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7631	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: an addition to collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7632	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: an addition to collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7633	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: an addition to collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7634	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Red Ball catalog #11
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7635	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Varney power truck conversion
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7636	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7637	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7638	From: John Barlow	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7639	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7640	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7641	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7642	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Red Ball catalog #11
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7643	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7644	From: John Barlow	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7645	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Red Ball catalog #11
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7646	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7647	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Appreciate advice
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7648	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7649	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7650	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7651	From: Chris B	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7652	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7653	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7654	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7655	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7656	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7657	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7658	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7659	From: sean naylor	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7660	From: Dst8596587@aol.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7661	From: Chris B	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7662	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7663	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7664	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7665	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7666	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7667	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7668	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7669	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7670	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7671	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7672	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7673	From: topstokes	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7674	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: need ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7675	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7676	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7677	From: topstokes	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7678	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: need ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7679	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: some vintage modification
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7680	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7681	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: need ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7682	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7683	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: some vintage modification
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7684	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/18/2008
Subject: not available
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7685	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7686	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7687	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/21/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7688	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/21/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7689	From: Jay Matz	Date: 9/22/2008
Subject: new auction site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7690	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/22/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7691	From: Larry	Date: 9/23/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7692	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 9/23/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7693	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7694	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/24/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7695	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/24/2008
Subject: IMP Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7696	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/24/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7697	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 9/24/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7698	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: IMP Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7699	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: IMP Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7700	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: IMP Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7701	From: erieberk	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7702	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: IMP Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7703	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: IC suburban
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7704	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7705	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7706	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/26/2008
Subject: Re: IC suburban
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7707	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/26/2008
Subject: Re: IC suburban
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7708	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: IC suburban
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7709	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: VarneyC&NW Oservation
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7710	From: Andy B	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7711	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7712	From: Steven Winter	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7713	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7714	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member - Lionel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7715	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7716	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Old Horse Drawn Wagons
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7717	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: Old Horse Drawn Wagons
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7718	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/28/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7719	From: ho6471trains	Date: 9/28/2008
Subject: American Precision Models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7720	From: g94a95	Date: 9/28/2008
Subject: Penn Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7721	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/28/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7722	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/29/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7723	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/29/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7724	From: Larry	Date: 9/29/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7725	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/29/2008
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7726	From: stipaa	Date: 9/30/2008
Subject: AHM kit # 5820 (GRUSUM CASKET CO)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7727	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/1/2008
Subject: New collection addition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7728	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/1/2008
Subject: Re: New collection addition (small correction)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7729	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 10/1/2008
Subject: Re: New collection addition (small correction)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7730	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/5/2008
Subject: need part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7731	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 10/5/2008
Subject: fiber board
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7732	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/6/2008
Subject: Re: fiber board
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7733	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 10/6/2008
Subject: Re: fiber board
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7734	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Link for Mantua parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7735	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Re: Link for Mantua parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7736	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Re: Link for Mantua parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7737	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Re: Link for Mantua parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7738	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Link for Mantua parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7739	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7740	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7741	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7742	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7743	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7744	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7745	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Me too
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7746	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7747	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7748	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7749	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7750	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7751	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7752	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7753	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7754	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Kemtron Brass Baldwin switcher on eBay: Was: latest project for col
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7755	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7756	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7757	From: Fred Alles	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7758	From: jay matz	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7759	From: Jay Matz	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7760	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7761	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Kemtron Brass Baldwin switcher on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7762	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7763	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7764	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7765	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7766	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7767	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Resin
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7768	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7769	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7770	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7771	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7772	From: Andrew Bell	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Old model kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7773	From: Steven Winter	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Marx HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7774	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7775	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7776	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Marx HO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7777	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7778	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Shoreham NP slumbercoach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7779	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Re: Shoreham NP slumbercoach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7780	From: frank	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Hello everybody !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7781	From: frank	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Me again !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7782	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Re: Me again !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7783	From: oahurailway	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Re: Me again !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7784	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7785	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7786	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7787	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Blue Line IC 85' passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7788	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7789	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7790	From: Charlie	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7791	From: John Barlow	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7792	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7793	From: Andrew Bell	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Dan Bush
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7794	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7795	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7796	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7797	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7798	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7799	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7800	From: Charlie	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7801	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7802	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7803	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7804	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7805	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7806	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7807	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: check out
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7808	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: check out
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7809	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7810	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: check out
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7811	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7812	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/21/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7813	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/21/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7814	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/22/2008
Subject: Welcome Rick
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7815	From: Rick Tonet	Date: 10/22/2008
Subject: Re: Welcome Rick
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7816	From: Rick Jones	Date: 10/22/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7817	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7818	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7819	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7820	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7821	From: Rick Jones	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7822	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7823	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7824	From: Larry	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7825	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7826	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7827	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7828	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7829	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7830	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7831	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/27/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7832	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/27/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7833	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/28/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7834	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/28/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7835	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7836	From: ron plyler	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Question of site.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7837	From: Gerry D	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Re: Question of site.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7838	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Re: Question of site.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7839	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Re: Question of site.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7840	From: rcjge	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7841	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7842	From: Larry	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7843	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7844	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7845	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7846	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7847	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7848	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7849	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7850	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7851	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7852	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7853	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7854	From: rny11	Date: 10/31/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7855	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 10/31/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7856	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/31/2008
Subject: need information
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7857	From: man.ukin	Date: 10/31/2008
Subject: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7858	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: need information
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7859	From: erieberk	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: need information
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7860	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7861	From: Rick Tonet	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7862	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Newest aquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7863	From: Larry	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7864	From: erieberk	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7865	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7866	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Great information Ray
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7867	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7868	From: Jens Kinne	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7869	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7870	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7871	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7872	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7873	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: My Latest Vids
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7874	From: jbark76	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7875	From: Jens Kinne	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7876	From: Jim Snyder	Date: 11/3/2008
Subject: Vintage"Golden Age" Brass...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7877	From: Jim Snyder	Date: 11/3/2008
Subject: Vintage"Golden Age" Brass...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7878	From: Glenn476	Date: 11/5/2008
Subject: surplus stuff
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7879	From: Jens Kinne	Date: 11/5/2008
Subject: Re: surplus stuff
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7880	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/7/2008
Subject: Trainfest
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7881	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 11/9/2008
Subject: Selling Broadway Limited HO brass cars by SoHo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7882	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Finished Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7883	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Re: Finished Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7884	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Varney trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7885	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Re: Finished Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7886	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Re: Finished Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7887	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Re: Finished Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7888	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7889	From: erieberk	Date: 11/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7890	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7891	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 11/13/2008
Subject: Varney trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7892	From: Larry	Date: 11/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7893	From: Rick Tonet	Date: 11/13/2008
Subject: AHM Train Set Posters
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7894	From: Steven Winter	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Marx id
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7895	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Re: Marx id
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7896	From: Steven Winter	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Re: Marx id
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7897	From: Steven Winter	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Re: Marx id
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7898	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Re: Marx id
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7899	From: sswcharlie	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7900	From: jay matz	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7901	From: erieberk	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7902	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7903	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7904	From: Larry	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7905	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7906	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Mantua 'Loop' couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7907	From: Charlie	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7908	From: Charlie	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7909	From: Charlie	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7910	From: Charlie	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7911	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7912	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7913	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 11/16/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7914	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/16/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7915	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/16/2008
Subject: need direction/diagram for kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7916	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/16/2008
Subject: Re: need direction/diagram for kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7917	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/17/2008
Subject: Re: need direction/diagram for kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7918	From: rcjge	Date: 11/17/2008
Subject: Re: need direction/diagram for kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7919	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/19/2008
Subject: new project
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7920	From: John Barlow	Date: 11/19/2008
Subject: Re: Acquiring a Golden Oldie...Need an Info Source
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7921	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 11/19/2008
Subject: Re: new project
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7922	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/20/2008
Subject: I need a URL
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7923	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 11/20/2008
Subject: Re: I need a URL
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7924	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/20/2008
Subject: Re: I need a URL
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7925	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 11/20/2008
Subject: Re: I need a URL
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7926	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/26/2008
Subject: Anybody know
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7927	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/27/2008
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7928	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/27/2008
Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7929	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 11/27/2008
Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7930	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: need help
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7931	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: found out about Bromo Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7932	From: Graeme	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7933	From: Riverboy	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7934	From: Riverboy	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7935	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7936	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7937	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7938	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Bromo, Penn Line, Athearn
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7939	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7940	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7941	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7942	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Knapp Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7943	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7944	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7945	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Penn Line version
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7946	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7947	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7948	From: Reinaldo Astorino	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Kadee coupler
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7949	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee coupler
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7950	From: PBowers	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Interlocking plant parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7951	From: man.ukin	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: so many questions about other auction places
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7952	From: magnoliastation	Date: 12/1/2008
Subject: Regarding Bromo Lines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7953	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/1/2008
Subject: New addition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7954	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7955	From: Bill Wright	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7956	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7957	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7958	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: New addition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7959	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7960	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7961	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7962	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7963	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7964	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Regarding Bromo Lines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7965	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7966	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: ATT passenger car from awhile back
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7967	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7968	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7969	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7970	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7971	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7972	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7973	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7974	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7975	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7976	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Was: Time to build a tugboat kit / now : real water
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7977	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7978	From: Steven Stoikes	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Regarding Bromo Lines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7979	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7980	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7981	From: trainliker	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7982	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7983	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7984	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7985	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7986	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7987	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7988	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7989	From: Bill Wright	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7990	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Regarding Bromo Lines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7991	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Car tilt
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7992	From: jay matz	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7993	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7994	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7995	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7996	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7997	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7998	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt
Group: vintageHO	Message: 7999	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8000	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 12/6/2008
Subject: New Vids
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8001	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 12/7/2008
Subject: Varney Class Lights
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8002	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/7/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Class Lights
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8003	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/7/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Class Lights
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8004	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 12/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Class Lights
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8005	From: Al Campbell	Date: 12/11/2008
Subject: The Reporting Mark
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8006	From: sswcharlie	Date: 12/11/2008
Subject: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8007	From: larrydonhoffner@aol.com	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Hobbyline parts.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8008	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbyline parts.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8009	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8010	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8011	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbyline parts.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8012	From: Charlie	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane What Scale ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8013	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8014	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 12/13/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbyline parts.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8015	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/13/2008
Subject: Next projects.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8016	From: fredsmodelrr	Date: 12/17/2008
Subject: woodland scenics plaster cloth
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8017	From: oahurailway	Date: 12/17/2008
Subject: Re: woodland scenics plaster cloth
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8018	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 12/17/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8019	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8020	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8021	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8022	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8023	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8024	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8025	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8026	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8027	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8028	From: Larry	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8029	From: Maynard Keith Franklin	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8030	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8031	From: Tom	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8032	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8033	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8034	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8035	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8036	From: Ron Plyler	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8037	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8038	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8039	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8040	From: Thomas Parsons	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8041	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: I Got A New Train Set For Christmas
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8042	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8043	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8044	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8045	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8046	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: latest completed project
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8047	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: latest completed project
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8048	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: better picture
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8049	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8050	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: better picture
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8051	From: Tom	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8052	From: Mike	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Illinois Valley Division Meet - January 11, 2009
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8053	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: Illinois Valley Division Meet - January 11, 2009
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8054	From: oljoeoh	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: better picture
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8055	From: Larry Stevenson	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Happy Holidays
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8056	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: better picture
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8057	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: PL Whitcomb D1 vs. D2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8058	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: PL Whitcomb D1 vs. D2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8059	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: [on3] Max Gray 4-4-0?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8060	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Disater caboose
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8061	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: Disater caboose
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8062	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: [Fwd: Here is an update from the new owners of NWSL]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8063	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: Disater caboose
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8064	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: JC Silversides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8065	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8066	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8067	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8068	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8069	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: Disaster caboose
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8070	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8071	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Christmas wish
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8072	From: bayerw@comcast.net	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8073	From: bayerw@comcast.net	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: Christmas wish
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8074	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Don's passenger cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8075	From: Gerry D	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8076	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: Christmas wish
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8077	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/25/2008
Subject: Re: Christmas wish
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8078	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8079	From: oljoeoh	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8080	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8081	From: Charles Windes	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8082	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8083	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8084	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8085	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]RE: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8086	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8087	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8088	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: small part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8089	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: small part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8090	From: fydill	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8091	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8092	From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8093	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8094	From: Chris B	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: small part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8095	From: Chris B	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: small part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8096	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: small part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8097	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Ambroid complete listing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8098	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8099	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8100	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8101	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8102	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8103	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8104	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8105	From: jay matz	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid complete listing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8106	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8107	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8108	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8109	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8110	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8111	From: Tom	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8112	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8113	From: Tom	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8114	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8115	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8116	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8117	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8118	From: nvrr49	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid complete listing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8119	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/28/2008
Subject: Added PL Whitcomb info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8120	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 12/28/2008
Subject: Re: small part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8121	From: Richard Moessner	Date: 12/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8122	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/29/2008
Subject: Re: Added PL Whitcomb info
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8123	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/31/2008
Subject: Mystery brass inspection car??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8124	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 12/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8125	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 12/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
Group: vintageHO	Message: 8126	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??

---

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4707	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Unusual Athearn?

Attachments : Got a few models yesterday I bought on eBay over the Holidays, one was rather unusual, at least I had never heard of this before. An Athearn metal boxcar, round roof like the auto cars, but 40' single door. Anybody else ever seen one of these? Added pics of the others to my various albums, a few Athearn metal & plastic, one Varney (also unusual, I now have a B&O Hopper in black, and one in red, identical markings), one Ulrich. If you don't want to wade through the albums, go to the group home page and click on "new pictures" Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4708	From: jay matz	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Don I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early 50s. Jay   Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic MARKETPLACE Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. . Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4709	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

That's good to know.  I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: jay matz To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? Don I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early 50s. Jay   Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic MARKETPLACE Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. . Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4710	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

I am pretty sure that I have the same car, but I have to get out to my barn to check. I thought I had an image of it in my "collection", but it is hidden behind something else in all of the images I found. More later... Mike Don Dellmann wrote: > > > Got a few models yesterday I bought on eBay over the Holidays, one was > rather unusual, at least I had never heard of this before. > > An Athearn metal boxcar, round roof like the auto cars, but 40' single door. > Anybody else ever seen one of these? > > Added pics of the others to my various albums, a few Athearn metal & > plastic, one Varney (also unusual, I now have a B&O Hopper in black, and > one > in red, identical markings), one Ulrich. If you don't want to wade through > the albums, go to the group home page and click on "new pictures" > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4711	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Yeah, I have one in D T & I markings. Not in the best condition. Also a 50' one, D T & I.   They're old. Bowser carries parts for them, but it's cheaper to get a new one - they have been re-issued. Wish my catalogue was newer. 1990, maybe.   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: Got a few models yesterday I bought on eBay over the Holidays, one was rather unusual, at least I had never heard of this before. An Athearn metal boxcar, round roof like the auto cars, but 40' single door. Anybody else ever seen one of these? Added pics of the others to my various albums, a few Athearn metal & plastic, one Varney (also unusual, I now have a B&O Hopper in black, and one in red, identical markings), one Ulrich. If you don't want to wade through the albums, go to the group home page and click on "new pictures" Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4712	From: erieberk	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A-301 PRR (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A-303 SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting numbers). I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 of the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, but these were "distinctive". Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > Don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jay matz > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > Don > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early 50s. > Jay > > > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > MARKETPLACE > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > . > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4713	From: erieberk	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Fred, The 50' Athearn metal double-door round roof automobile cars were produced in the same series of road names, as also were the 40' metal double door round roof automobile cars. The 40' cars were A- 305 PRR (with 5 known/confirmed reporting numbers), A-306 DT&I (with 7 known reporting numbers), A-307 SAL (with 6 known reporting numbers) and A-308 N&W (with 7 known road numbers). The 50' metal double door round roof automobile cars were; A-309 PRR (w/ 6 known numbers), A-310 DT&I, yours - (w/ 7 known numbers), A-311 SAL (w/ 6 known numbers) and A-312 N&W (w/ 7 known numbers). Later on, when G.F. Menzies took over production of these cars, they produced a 40' metal double door round roof auto car in the NP roadname and a similar 50' auto car in the TAG (Tennessee, Alabama & Georgia) roadname, which were never issued by Athearn, in addition to the four Athearn roadnames they (Menzies) continued to produce. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote: > > Yeah, I have one in D T & I markings. Not in the best condition. Also a 50' one, D T & I. > > They're old. Bowser carries parts for them, but it's cheaper to get a new one - they have been re-issued. Wish my catalogue was newer. 1990, maybe. > > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) > > Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > Got a few models yesterday I bought on eBay over the Holidays, one was > rather unusual, at least I had never heard of this before. > > An Athearn metal boxcar, round roof like the auto cars, but 40' single door. > Anybody else ever seen one of these? > > Added pics of the others to my various albums, a few Athearn metal & > plastic, one Varney (also unusual, I now have a B&O Hopper in black, and one > in red, identical markings), one Ulrich. If you don't want to wade through > the albums, go to the group home page and click on "new pictures" > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4714	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

I think I had one of those about 55 years ago--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:23 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > Got a few models yesterday I bought on eBay over the Holidays, one was > rather unusual, at least I had never heard of this before. > > An Athearn metal boxcar, round roof like the auto cars, but 40' single > door. > Anybody else ever seen one of these? > > Added pics of the others to my various albums, a few Athearn metal & > plastic, one Varney (also unusual, I now have a B&O Hopper in black, and > one > in red, identical markings), one Ulrich. If you don't want to wade > through > the albums, go to the group home page and click on "new pictures" > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4715	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Don,     The Athearn metal single-door round-roof car was made in at least four road names: PRR, Detroit Toledo & Ironton, Seaboard, and N&W, each road name with multiple car numbers.  They all show up for sale from time to time at train meets and elsewhere ranging in condition from mint kit, to well-built finished cars, to junk (for parts).  None is rare to my knowledge.  I have examples of all except for the Seaboard.     Best wishes, and happy New Year.                                                                                                                                 Lou Greiff On 1/1/08 7:23 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:     Got a few models yesterday I bought on eBay over the Holidays, one was rather unusual, at least I had never heard of this before. An Athearn metal boxcar, round roof like the auto cars, but 40' single door. Anybody else ever seen one of these? Added pics of the others to my various albums, a few Athearn metal & plastic, one Varney (also unusual, I now have a B&O Hopper in black, and one in red, identical markings), one Ulrich.  If you don't want to wade through the albums, go to the group home page and click on "new pictures" Don don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4716	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone confirm that the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the “all metal” version (with wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal parts are put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof?  Of the twelve cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I’ve come across “all metal” versions of every car except for the Pacemaker.  My guess is that it’s out there, and I’m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for sure.     Best wishes and happy New Year.                                                                                                                                             Lou G. On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Don,  No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door round roof boxcar was kitbashed.  As has already been confirmed earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs.   Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A-301 PRR (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A-303 SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting numbers).   I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 of the N&W's.  Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, but these were "distinctive".  Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > That's good to know.  I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > Don >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: jay matz >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>   >   Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM >   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > >   Don >   I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early 50s. >   Jay > >        >     Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic >     MARKETPLACE > > ---------------------------------------------------------- -------- >     Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. >     . > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------- >   Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4717	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi All, FWIW I have a PRR 59450 (Kit A309 - 50 ft. round roof car) on my layout that I bought new and assembled about 55 yars ago. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4718	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Attachments : Like this one? <G>   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Garry Spear To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Hi All, FWIW I have a PRR 59450 (Kit A309 - 50 ft. round roof car) on my layout that I bought new and assembled about 55 yars ago. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4719	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Happy 2008!!

Attachments : Happy 2008!! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4720	From: erieberk	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year too. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone confirm that > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version (with > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal parts are > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the twelve > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all metal² > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that it¹s out > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for sure. > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > Lou G. > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A-301 PRR > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- 303 > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting numbers). > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 of > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, but > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > >> > > >> > Don > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: jay matz > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > >> > > >> > > >> > Don > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early > > 50s. > >> > Jay > >> > > >> > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > > topic > >> > MARKETPLACE > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > >> > . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > Mobile. Try it now. > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4721	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Thanks, Ray, for the quick answer to my question.                                     Lou G. On 1/1/08 3:34 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only).   Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting number 74283 as being all metal.  I have eight of the known THIRTEEN reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer your question.  Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year too.  Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > >     On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone confirm that > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the “all metal” version (with > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal parts are > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof?  Of the twelve > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I’ve come across “all metal” > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker.  My guess is that it’s out > there, and I’m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for sure. >     Best wishes and happy New Year. > >                     > Lou G. > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > >   > >   > >   > > > > Don,  No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed.  As has already been confirmed > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A-301 PRR > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- 303 > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting numbers). > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 of > > the N&W's.  Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, but > > these were "distinctive".  Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > That's good to know.  I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > >> > > >> > Don > >> >   ----- Original Message ----- > >> >   From: jay matz > >> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> >   Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > >> >   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > >> > > >> > > >> >   Don > >> >   I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early > > 50s. > >> >   Jay > >> > > >> >        > >> >     Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > > topic > >> >     MARKETPLACE > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >> >     Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > >> >     . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > >> >   Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > Mobile. Try it now. > >> > > > > >   > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4722	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

The way those Athearn boxcars went together always drove me nuts. I could never get everything to line up and get those turning blocks lined up. I was probably 14 at the time. Back in the eighties, Jack (Yosemite Valley RR) Burgess was contest chair of Coast Division, PCR. One meet he decided to have a special contest for just "Athearn 40 foot boxcars." Another guy and I decided to take him literally--the other guy brought in one like we've been discussing, I brought in an O Scale version. Those had a wood body with stamped sheet metal parts. Sides were pre-painted and silk screened, the rest had to be painted. He didn't want to believe that these were Athearn until a couple of old-timers intervened. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:34 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year too. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone confirm that > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version (with > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal parts are > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the twelve > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all metal² > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that it¹s out > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for sure. > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > Lou G. > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A-301 PRR > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- 303 > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting numbers). > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 of > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, but > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > >> > > >> > Don > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: jay matz > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > >> > > >> > > >> > Don > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early > > 50s. > >> > Jay > >> > > >> > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > > topic > >> > MARKETPLACE > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > >> > . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > Mobile. Try it now. > >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4723	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet together for these cars.  I already have the sheet done, just need the reporting numbers.  If you are interested in such a list? Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year too. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@.. .> wrote: > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone confirm that > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version (with > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal parts are > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the twelve > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all metal² > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that it¹s out > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for sure. > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > Lou G. > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A-301 PRR > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- 303 > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting numbers). > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 of > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, but > > these were "distinctive" . Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> , "Don > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ > > > wrote: > >> > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > >> > > >> > Don > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: jay matz > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > >> > > >> > > >> > Don > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early > > 50s. > >> > Jay > >> > > >> > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > > topic > >> > MARKETPLACE > >> > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > -------- > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder. net. > >> > . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > ---------- > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > Mobile. Try it now. > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4724	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Yes, the all-metal Athearn boxcars can be a challenge to put together properly.  I’ve learned that one critical step in the process is to secure the roof walk to the roof and sub roof as tightly as possible.  If you leave any slack at this point in construction, it may not be possible to secure the car ends between the roof overhang at the top and the lip of the coupler pocket at the bottom.  Bowser had what I believe is a good solution to this problem.  When they re-issued the cars, they replaced the old cast parts that Athearn called retainer blocks with small speed nuts.  The cast retainer blocks had to be riveted down, but the speed nuts can simply be pushed all the way on to the studs underneath the roof walk for a tight fit.  Maybe some of us who collect unbuilt kits will cringe to read this.  I treasure the mint kits myself, but I also love to build Athearn metal cars and put them into service on my layout.  All best.                                                                                                                                                 Lou G.   On 1/1/08 4:30 PM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:     The way those Athearn boxcars went together always drove me nuts.  I could never get everything to line up and get those turning blocks lined up.  I was probably 14 at the time. Back in the eighties, Jack (Yosemite Valley RR) Burgess was contest chair of Coast Division, PCR.  One meet he decided to have a special contest for just "Athearn 40 foot boxcars."  Another guy and I decided to take him literally--the other guy brought in one like we've been discussing, I brought in an O Scale version.  Those had a wood body with stamped sheet metal parts. Sides were pre-painted and silk screened, the rest had to be painted.  He didn't want to believe that these were Athearn until a couple of old-timers intervened.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@... <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:34 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting number 74283 as being all metal.  I have eight of the known THIRTEEN reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer your question.  Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year too.  Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > >     On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone confirm that > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the “all metal” version (with > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal parts are > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof?  Of the twelve > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I’ve come across “all metal” > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker.  My guess is that it’s out > there, and I’m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for sure. >     Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > Lou G. > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Don,  No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed.  As has already been confirmed > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A-301 PRR > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- 303 > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting numbers). > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 of > > the N&W's.  Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, but > > these were "distinctive".  Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > That's good to know.  I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > >> > > >> > Don > >> >   ----- Original Message ----- > >> >   From: jay matz > >> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> >   Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > >> >   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > >> > > >> > > >> >   Don > >> >   I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early > > 50s. > >> >   Jay > >> > > >> > > >> >     Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > > topic > >> >     MARKETPLACE > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >> >     Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > >> >     . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > >> >   Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > Mobile. Try it now. > >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4725	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Don't worry about offending anybody by building kits.  The full name of this group is "Vintage HO  OPERATORS".  The whole idea is to RUN that great old vintage stuff.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Yes, the all-metal Athearn boxcars can be a challenge to put together properly.  I’ve learned that one critical step in the process is to secure the roof walk to the roof and sub roof as tightly as possible.  If you leave any slack at this point in construction, it may not be possible to secure the car ends between the roof overhang at the top and the lip of the coupler pocket at the bottom.  Bowser had what I believe is a good solution to this problem.  When they re-issued the cars, they replaced the old cast parts that Athearn called retainer blocks with small speed nuts.  The cast retainer blocks had to be riveted down, but the speed nuts can simply be pushed all the way on to the studs underneath the roof walk for a tight fit.  Maybe some of us who collect unbuilt kits will cringe to read this.  I treasure the mint kits myself, but I also love to build Athearn metal cars and put them into service on my layout.  All best.                                                                                                                                                 Lou G.   On 1/1/08 4:30 PM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:     The way those Athearn boxcars went together always drove me nuts.  I could never get everything to line up and get those turning blocks lined up.  I was probably 14 at the time. Back in the eighties, Jack (Yosemite Valley RR) Burgess was contest chair of Coast Division, PCR.  One meet he decided to have a special contest for just "Athearn 40 foot boxcars."  Another guy and I decided to take him literally--the other guy brought in one like we've been discussing, I brought in an O Scale version.  Those had a wood body with stamped sheet metal parts. Sides were pre-painted and silk screened, the rest had to be painted.  He didn't want to believe that these were Athearn until a couple of old-timers intervened.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@... <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:34 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting number 74283 as being all metal.  I have eight of the known THIRTEEN reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer your question.  Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year too.  Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > >     On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone confirm that > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the “all metal” version (with > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal parts are > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof?  Of the twelve > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I’ve come across “all metal” > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker.  My guess is that it’s out > there, and I’m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for sure. >     Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > Lou G. > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Don,  No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed.  As has already been confirmed > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A-301 PRR > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- 303 > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting numbers). > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 of > > the N&W's.  Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, but > > these were "distinctive".  Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > That's good to know.  I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > >> > > >> > Don > >> >   ----- Original Message ----- > >> >   From: jay matz > >> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> >   Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > >> >   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > >> > > >> > > >> >   Don > >> >   I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early > > 50s. > >> >   Jay > >> > > >> > > >> >     Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > > topic > >> >     MARKETPLACE > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >> >     Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > >> >     . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > >> >   Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > Mobile. Try it now. > >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4726	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Anyways, if the kits haven't been built until now, they can be built with all the technological and chemical improvements we didn't have back then--like adhesives that really join wood to metal to card stock, etc.   Back when those kits came out what did we have> casein wood glues, some of which had to be mixed with water, and wouldn't, "All Purpose" household glues like Duco, Ambroid, and Testors  (Remember "formula A and Formula B)?  Most of the kits we built with these have since "Re-kitted" themselves.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Don't worry about offending anybody by building kits.  The full name of this group is "Vintage HO  OPERATORS".  The whole idea is to RUN that great old vintage stuff.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Yes, the all-metal Athearn boxcars can be a challenge to put together properly.  I’ve learned that one critical step in the process is to secure the roof walk to the roof and sub roof as tightly as possible.  If you leave any slack at this point in construction, it may not be possible to secure the car ends between the roof overhang at the top and the lip of the coupler pocket at the bottom.  Bowser had what I believe is a good solution to this problem.  When they re-issued the cars, they replaced the old cast parts that Athearn called retainer blocks with small speed nuts.  The cast retainer blocks had to be riveted down, but the speed nuts can simply be pushed all the way on to the studs underneath the roof walk for a tight fit.  Maybe some of us who collect unbuilt kits will cringe to read this.  I treasure the mint kits myself, but I also love to build Athearn metal cars and put them into service on my layout.  All best.                                                                                                                                                 Lou G.   On 1/1/08 4:30 PM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:     The way those Athearn boxcars went together always drove me nuts.  I could never get everything to line up and get those turning blocks lined up.  I was probably 14 at the time. Back in the eighties, Jack (Yosemite Valley RR) Burgess was contest chair of Coast Division, PCR.  One meet he decided to have a special contest for just "Athearn 40 foot boxcars."  Another guy and I decided to take him literally--the other guy brought in one like we've been discussing, I brought in an O Scale version.  Those had a wood body with stamped sheet metal parts. Sides were pre-painted and silk screened, the rest had to be painted.  He didn't want to believe that these were Athearn until a couple of old-timers intervened.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@... <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:34 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting number 74283 as being all metal.  I have eight of the known THIRTEEN reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer your question.  Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year too.  Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > >     On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone confirm that > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the “all metal” version (with > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal parts are > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof?  Of the twelve > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I’ve come across “all metal” > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker.  My guess is that it’s out > there, and I’m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for sure. >     Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > Lou G. > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Don,  No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed.  As has already been confirmed > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A-301 PRR > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- 303 > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting numbers). > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 of > > the N&W's.  Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, but > > these were "distinctive".  Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > That's good to know.  I was afraid someone may have "kitbashed" it > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > >> > > >> > Don > >> >   ----- Original Message ----- > >> >   From: jay matz > >> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> >   Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > >> >   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > >> > > >> > > >> >   Don > >> >   I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the early > > 50s. > >> >   Jay > >> > > >> > > >> >     Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new > > topic > >> >     MARKETPLACE > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >> >     Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > >> >     . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > >> >   Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > Mobile. Try it now. > >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4727	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Might I suggest the use of Weldbond glue?   It looks and acts like cheap white glue, but will bond almost anything to anything, such as metal to glass or whatever. Seems pricey at first, but it goes a long, long way. I have three containers - about 10-12 oz size - and one of them is still the first one I bought.(See below) The other two store the diluted glue, ready to apply.   For use on porous surfaces(wodd, paper, leather), you dilute it and apply as a "primer" which then dries, maybe overnight, and after that, just like any white glue.   I have a layout in my basement which is mostly assembled(yes, risers and all!) with it - done back in 1980, and still holding together in a damp basement after all this time.   The only thing that didn't work properly is a switch kit(old Atlas) which I curved to use in a tricky spot, but did not bend the rails to the correct shape before glueing. Over the next few weeks, the rails tried to straighten out, didnt make it but the guage is now a bit off and some things derail. I'll know better next time but will still use Weldbond. The other switches still function quite well. I plan to use more of them(plenty on hand) as time permits.   ...my two cents' worth...   Happy modeling!   Fred Hultberg(resident ethcing wizard, Fotocut)     Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: Anyways, if the kits haven't been built until now, they can be built with all the technological and chemical improvements we didn't have back then--like adhesives that really join wood to metal to card stock, etc.   Back when those kits came out what did we have> casein wood glues, some of which had to be mixed with water, and wouldn't, "All Purpose" household glues like Duco, Ambroid, and Testors  (Remember "formula A and Formula B)?  Most of the kits we built with these have since "Re-kitted" themselves.  gj       Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4728	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

If it can be used retroactively.  I recall Weldwood's ads. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hultberg To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Might I suggest the use of Weldbond glue?   It looks and acts like cheap white glue, but will bond almost anything to anything, such as metal to glass or whatever. Seems pricey at first, but it goes a long, long way. I have three containers - about 10-12 oz size - and one of them is still the first one I bought.(See below) The other two store the diluted glue, ready to apply.   For use on porous surfaces(wodd, paper, leather), you dilute it and apply as a "primer" which then dries, maybe overnight, and after that, just like any white glue.   I have a layout in my basement which is mostly assembled(yes, risers and all!) with it - done back in 1980, and still holding together in a damp basement after all this time.   The only thing that didn't work properly is a switch kit(old Atlas) which I curved to use in a tricky spot, but did not bend the rails to the correct shape before glueing. Over the next few weeks, the rails tried to straighten out, didnt make it but the guage is now a bit off and some things derail. I'll know better next time but will still use Weldbond. The other switches still function quite well. I plan to use more of them(plenty on hand) as time permits.   ...my two cents' worth...   Happy modeling!   Fred Hultberg(resident ethcing wizard, Fotocut)     Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: Anyways, if the kits haven't been built until now, they can be built with all the technological and chemical improvements we didn't have back then--like adhesives that really join wood to metal to card stock, etc.   Back when those kits came out what did we have> casein wood glues, some of which had to be mixed with water, and wouldn't, "All Purpose" household glues like Duco, Ambroid, and Testors  (Remember "formula A and Formula B)?  Most of the kits we built with these have since "Re-kitted" themselves.  gj       Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4729	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Yes. Garry On 1/1/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: Like this one? <G>   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Garry Spear To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Hi All, FWIW I have a PRR 59450 (Kit A309 - 50 ft. round roof car) on my layout that I bought new and assembled about 55 yars ago. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4730	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: [Vintage HO] Weldwood/Weldbond

Glenn, I have no idea.   Wasn't there some discussion earlier about "using newer techiques and methods?"   I know it's more than 25 years old, just the ones I have.   God only knows how long they have been around.   Weldwood is not the same product - as far as I know.   Copyright on the instruction sheet is 1982. A newer one is marked 1994. Happy Modeling   Fred Hultberg(Mr. Retroactive Modeler) Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: If it can be used retroactively.  I recall Weldwood's ads.   Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4731	From: erieberk	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) or so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, Laconia, Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when they changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained all the same reporting numbers for these same road names. After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers which did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would still help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L-W Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal or any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing them down so would have to go all back through the collection to find that data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet together > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the reporting > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > too. Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > confirm that > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version > (with > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal > parts are > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the > twelve > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > metal² > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that > it¹s out > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > sure. > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- 301 > PRR > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- > 303 > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > numbers). > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 > of > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, > but > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > have "kitbashed" it > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: jay matz > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > early > > > 50s. > > >> > Jay > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > new > > > topic > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > >> > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------- > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > >> > . > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---------- > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4732	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/1/2008
Subject: Re: [Vintage HO] Weldwood/Weldbond

I was being a bit facetious--someone suggested Weldwood glue--I was referring to cars that had been built 55 years ago--point was that we can't go back and re-do what we did then--also pointing out that if we had the adhesives and paints then that we have now--how much better a lot of those models would have been.    Yes--Weldwood, and even the old stand-by Ambroiod aren't the same product they were then--thanks in good part to our overly-protective gummint agencies.gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hultberg To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 8:00 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: [Vintage HO] Weldwood/Weldbond Glenn, I have no idea.   Wasn't there some discussion earlier about "using newer techiques and methods?"   I know it's more than 25 years old, just the ones I have.   God only knows how long they have been around.   Weldwood is not the same product - as far as I know.   Copyright on the instruction sheet is 1982. A newer one is marked 1994. Happy Modeling   Fred Hultberg(Mr. Retroactive Modeler) Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: If it can be used retroactively.  I recall Weldwood's ads.   Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4733	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Chuck, Ray, et al, I have an Excel spreed sheet with the Athearn (also, Park, Menzies, Bowers +) with most of the kit numbers and the car numbers for that kit. The sheet has code to separate the various manufactures.  The numbers are coded to show if the number is from an original list given to me, or a new number I found. You are welcome to a copy. Garry Spear On 1/2/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) or so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, Laconia, Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when they changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained all the same reporting numbers for these same road names. After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers which did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would still help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L-W Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal or any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing them down so would have to go all back through the collection to find that data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet together > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the reporting > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > too. Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > confirm that > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version > (with > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal > parts are > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the > twelve > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > metal² > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that > it¹s out > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > sure. > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- 301 > PRR > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- > 303 > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > numbers). > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 > of > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, > but > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > have "kitbashed" it > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: jay matz > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > early > > > 50s. > > >> > Jay > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > new > > > topic > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > >> > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------- > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > >> > . > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---------- > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4734	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Could you put it up in the files section on the group page?   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Garry Spear To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:13 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Hi Chuck, Ray, et al, I have an Excel spreed sheet with the Athearn (also, Park, Menzies, Bowers +) with most of the kit numbers and the car numbers for that kit. The sheet has code to separate the various manufactures.  The numbers are coded to show if the number is from an original list given to me, or a new number I found. You are welcome to a copy. Garry Spear On 1/2/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) or so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, Laconia, Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when they changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained all the same reporting numbers for these same road names. After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers which did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would still help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L-W Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal or any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing them down so would have to go all back through the collection to find that data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet together > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the reporting > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > too. Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > confirm that > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version > (with > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal > parts are > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the > twelve > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > metal² > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that > it¹s out > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > sure. > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- 301 > PRR > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- > 303 > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > numbers). > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 > of > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, > but > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > have "kitbashed" it > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: jay matz > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > early > > > 50s. > > >> > Jay > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > new > > > topic > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > >> > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------- > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > >> > . > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---------- > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4735	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /MANUF Athearn.XLS Uploaded by : garrettspear <garrettspear@...> Description : Athearn Metal Car List You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/MANUF%20Athearn.XLS To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, garrettspear <garrettspear@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4736	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Classic Athearn F7 shells

Ya know, for all the griping I hear these daze about the quality of Athearn products and how the old stuff was soooo badly done, as someone we (Don and I) know whose name also is John, once said about the F7, "But we sure thought they were great for a lot of years". And they were far and away the best for many years in appearance, reliability, reparability, parts availability and price. And they are still doing a good job with their products, especially when price is figured into the equation. Wish everyone a very Happy and successful New Years. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4737	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Garry, Thanks for posting that sheet, it was the best option of all. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Garry Spear Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:14 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Hi Chuck, Ray, et al, I have an Excel spreed sheet with the Athearn (also, Park, Menzies, Bowers +) with most of the kit numbers and the car numbers for that kit. The sheet has code to separate the various manufactures.  The numbers are coded to show if the number is from an original list given to me, or a new number I found. You are welcome to a copy. Garry Spear On 1/2/08, erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect. com> wrote: Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) or so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, Laconia, Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one reporting number even though in some case like Main Line , when they changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained all the same reporting numbers for these same road names. After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers which did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would still help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L-W Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada , Ideal or any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing them down so would have to go all back through the collection to find that data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@.. .> wrote: > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet together > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the reporting > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > too. Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto: href="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">vintageHO%40yahoogr oups.com> ps.com, > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > confirm that > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version > (with > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal > parts are > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the > twelve > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > metal² > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that > it¹s out > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > sure. > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- 301 > PRR > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- > 303 > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > numbers). > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 > of > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, > but > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto: href="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">vintageHO%40yahoogr oups.com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups. com> , "Don > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > have "kitbashed" it > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: jay matz > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto: href="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">vintageHO%40yahoogr oups.com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups. com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > early > > > 50s. > > >> > Jay > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > new > > > topic > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > >> > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > -------- > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder. net. > > >> > . > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > ---------- > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4738	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

erieberk wrote: > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > completed,... I'd prefer to see the list in a text or PDF format, since I don't have Excel and have no desire whatsoever to acquire it. I can't be the only one who doesn't own and use Excel or any of the other MS Office products. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Santa's Pickup Lines #2 - Screw the "Nice" list. I've got you on my "Naughty" list.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4739	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Ray, For the others, I certainly can do something in format, the Athearn style of Garry’s or the MDC style.  But I have almost no info on the makers listed, so would need much input.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:51 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) or so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, Laconia, Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one reporting number even though in some case like Main Line , when they changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained all the same reporting numbers for these same road names. After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers which did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would still help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L-W Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada , Ideal or any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing them down so would have to go all back through the collection to find that data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet together > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the reporting > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) car > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a reporting > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > too. Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com, > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > confirm that > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version > (with > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the metal > parts are > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the > twelve > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > metal² > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that > it¹s out > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > sure. > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single-door > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production runs. > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- 301 > PRR > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), A- > 303 > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > numbers). > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and 4 > of > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, > but > > > these were "distinctive" . Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups. com> , "Don > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > have "kitbashed" it > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: jay matz > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups. com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Don > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > early > > > 50s. > > >> > Jay > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > new > > > topic > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > >> > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > -------- > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder. net. > > >> > . > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > ---------- > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4740	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Rick, For some reason, I think you can still open it though the group.  Could you try and report back, so this rumor can be dispelled? Thanks,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   erieberk wrote: > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > completed,.. . I'd prefer to see the list in a text or PDF format, since I don't have Excel and have no desire whatsoever to acquire it. I can't be the only one who doesn't own and use Excel or any of the other MS Office products. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocitie s.com/seventysix inchesoffun/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4741	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

When I clicked on the file it was down loaded and open with excel. Rick, here are a few .xls readers. 1) office.microsoft.com/downloads/2000/xlviewer.aspx 2) www.freedownloadscenter.com/Best/xls-reader-free.html Google search for: .xls file readers. Many other spread sheet program will open and read.xls, just not write them. Garry On 1/2/08, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: Rick, For some reason, I think you can still open it though the group.  Could you try and report back, so this rumor can be dispelled? Thanks,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   erieberk wrote: > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > completed,... I'd prefer to see the list in a text or PDF format, since I don't have Excel and have no desire whatsoever to acquire it. I can't be the only one who doesn't own and use Excel or any of the other MS Office products. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4742	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

I could not open it, and couldn't find a shareware program that would.  Mickeysoft wants $150 for excel.   In my case, all is not lost since I DO have it on my machine at work, so I can print it out there, but that doesn't help other users.   What I THINK I can do is scan the printed hard copy at work into a PDF file and post that (if it prints out into standard 8 1/2 x 11 pages)  I'll try to do that tomorrow.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Rick, For some reason, I think you can still open it though the group.  Could you try and report back, so this rumor can be dispelled? Thanks,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   erieberk wrote: > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > completed,.. . I'd prefer to see the list in a text or PDF format, since I don't have Excel and have no desire whatsoever to acquire it. I can't be the only one who doesn't own and use Excel or any of the other MS Office products. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocitie s.com/seventysix inchesoffun/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4743	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

The following may work http://office. microsoft. com/downloads/ 2000/xlviewer. aspx It has for others, I know. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:00 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   I could not open it, and couldn't find a shareware program that would.  Mickeysoft wants $150 for excel.   In my case, all is not lost since I DO have it on my machine at work, so I can print it out there, but that doesn't help other users.   What I THINK I can do is scan the printed hard copy at work into a PDF file and post that (if it prints out into standard 8 1/2 x 11 pages)  I'll try to do that tomorrow.   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Rick, For some reason, I think you can still open it though the group.  Could you try and report back, so this rumor can be dispelled? Thanks,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   erieberk wrote: > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > completed,.. . I'd prefer to see the list in a text or PDF format, since I don't have Excel and have no desire whatsoever to acquire it. I can't be the only one who doesn't own and use Excel or any of the other MS Office products. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocitie s.com/seventysix inchesoffun/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4744	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 18:05:00 -0600, Rick Jones wrote: > I'd prefer to see the list in a text or PDF format, since I don't >have Excel and have no desire whatsoever to acquire it. I can't be the >only one who doesn't own and use Excel or any of the other MS Office >products. You're not. Try Open Office. Jerry -- " A patriot without religion . . . is as great a paradox, as an honest man without the fear of God." John Adams

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4745	From: Jim Snyder	Date: 1/2/2008
Subject: Re: Classic Athearn F7 shells

I started the same way many of us did... via Lionel(I inherited my dad's 2-6-2 set that he bought after tWWII). When I was nine, I saw HO track hanging at Farmann's Trains, in Kankakee, IL... and I knew it all had to change. That track looked so GOOD! We sold the Lionel- I shudder when I think of it- for $125. And I got an Athearn train set. PRR F7- with HiF, no less! And I marveled then- as I still marvel- at those fans on the roof of that engine! True, the windshield wasn't exactly right- they didn't even come with glass! But, as I recall, I ended up with a whole slew of 'em. I upgraded 'em with gear-drives andlater moved to On3- but I still love that stuff! I just bought some Varney steam engines on eBay- probably to fulfill something or other- and, like the Athearn "F"s, they aren't quite Precision Scale- but they're beautiful! And one of 'em will pull my car! Check Snyder's Photos. So Happy New Years, Guys... I'll let yaz know when it stops being fun! J. Snyder Monterey --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Ya know, for all the griping I hear these daze about the quality of > Athearn products and how the old stuff was soooo badly done, as someone > we (Don and I) know whose name also is John, once said about the > F7, "But we sure thought they were great for a lot of years". > > And they were far and away the best for many years in appearance, > reliability, reparability, parts availability and price. > > And they are still doing a good job with their products, especially > when price is figured into the equation. > > Wish everyone a very Happy and successful New Years. > > John Hagen >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4746	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Or get OpenOffice - it is free and does everything that the MS Office suite does and both reads and writes all MS Office files. That is what I use in all my Windowz and Linux machines. <www.openoffice.org/> Mike Garry Spear wrote: > > > When I clicked on the file it was down loaded and open with excel. > > Rick, here are a few .xls readers. > > 1) office.microsoft.com/downloads/2000/xlviewer.aspx > <http://office.microsoft.com/downloads/2000/xlviewer.aspx> > 2) www.freedownloadscenter.com/Best/ > <http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Best/>*xls*-reader-free.html > > Google search for: .xls file readers. > > Many other spread sheet program will open and read.xls, just not write them. > > Garry > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4747	From: erieberk	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Garry, Good going, and thanks a bunch for putting your spread sheet in the Files Section on Don's suggestion. That sure saves a lot of work (and thanks for the offer of a copy). Sometimes I don't get back here until the next day (like now), but now that its in the files, I'll go up and check it out in a few minutes. TTYL, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > Hi Chuck, Ray, et al, > > I have an Excel spreed sheet with the Athearn (also, Park, Menzies, Bowers > +) with most of the kit numbers and the car numbers for that kit. > > The sheet has code to separate the various manufactures. The numbers are > coded to show if the number is from an original list given to me, or a new > number I found. > > You are welcome to a copy. > > Garry Spear > > On 1/2/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the > > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in > > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should > > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) or > > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > > different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than > > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' > > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, Laconia, > > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any > > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when they > > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained all > > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers which > > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would still > > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L-W > > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal or > > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would > > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number > > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing them > > down so would have to go all back through the collection to find that > > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com>, "Chuck > > Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet > > together > > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > > reporting > > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: > > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) > > car > > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > > reporting > > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN > > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the > > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > > > too. Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com, > > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > > confirm that > > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version > > > (with > > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the > > metal > > > parts are > > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the > > > twelve > > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > > > metal² > > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that > > > it¹s out > > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > > > sure. > > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single- door > > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production > > runs. > > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- > > 301 > > > PRR > > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), > > A- > > > 303 > > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > > > numbers). > > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and > > 4 > > > of > > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, > > > but > > > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > <mailto:vintageHO% <vintageHO%25> > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Don > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > <mailto:vintageHO% <vintageHO%25> > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Don > > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > > > early > > > > > 50s. > > > > >> > Jay > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > > > new > > > > > topic > > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > > >> > > > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------- - > > > > > -------- > > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > > > >> > . > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------- - > > > > > ---------- > > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4748	From: prrp5a	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Don, Although I don't want to provide a formal endorsement, if you go to the web site,  http://www.openoffice.org/  you can download a free, open source  system that can be used to replace word, excel, etc.  It is  pretty compatible, the price is right and it works. Jim ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 8:00:27 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? I could not open it, and couldn't find a shareware program that would.  Mickeysoft wants $150 for excel.   In my case, all is not lost since I DO have it on my machine at work, so I can print it out there, but that doesn't help other users.   What I THINK I can do is scan the printed hard copy at work into a PDF file and post that (if it prints out into standard 8 1/2 x 11 pages)  I'll try to do that tomorrow.   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Rick, For some reason, I think you can still open it though the group.  Could you try and report back, so this rumor can be dispelled? Thanks,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   erieberk wrote: > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > completed,.. . I'd prefer to see the list in a text or PDF format, since I don't have Excel and have no desire whatsoever to acquire it. I can't be the only one who doesn't own and use Excel or any of the other MS Office products. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocitie s.com/seventysix inchesoffun/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4749	From: erieberk	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Chuck, Now that we have Garry's metal Athearn listing. I'm no longer needing to send you that, which saves us both a lot of work (thanks again, Garry). I'll check this Athearn list out in the Files Section to look it over for possible omissions and/or corrections. I know even the extensive list I have is not complete, as I've seen suspected (but previously unconfirmed) new numbers on eBay offerings of these cars which were never verified before. I've tried following the Athearn metal eBay listings for possible new numbers, but found it impossible to keep tabs on every listing. Now, as for these others, the info from any of them is no problem. I can supply you with most of it, having complete or near-complete collections of most (yeah, I'm a pack rat, big time, LOL). Let me know where you want to start. If I don't have it written down, this will give me a good excuse to go digging. As for the manufacturers of which my collection is not quite complete, maybe the rest of the interested members will be able to contribute numbers. BCNU, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > For the others, I certainly can do something in format, the Athearn style of > Garry's or the MDC style. But I have almost no info on the makers listed, > so would need much input. > > > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:51 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) or > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, Laconia, > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when they > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained all > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers which > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would still > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L- W > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal or > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing them > down so would have to go all back through the collection to find that > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet > together > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > reporting > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) > car > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > reporting > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > > too. Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > confirm that > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version > > (with > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the > metal > > parts are > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the > > twelve > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > > metal² > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that > > it¹s out > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > > sure. > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single- door > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production > runs. > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- > 301 > > PRR > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), > A- > > 303 > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > > numbers). > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and > 4 > > of > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, > > but > > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > >> > > > > >> > Don > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Don > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > > early > > > > 50s. > > > >> > Jay > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > > new > > > > topic > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > >> > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------- > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > > >> > . > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ---------- > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4750	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: A dealer with some old HO

To those who may be interested, a friend of mine, Jim Derr, is a dealer in older trains (he is retired and goes to about 20 shows a year) and while he deals primarily in N Scale, he also gets a lot of older HO. Today while visiting him he showed me a group of early HO boxcars and reefers (paper sides, cast pot metal trucks, etc) as well as an Athearn rubber-band (Hi-F) drive GP-9 in SP Black Widow. He also had one of the old Athearn 40-ft flats with a single trailer on it. Didn't catch the road name of the flat or the trailer but it looked to be in good nick. I have suggested he join our group, but just in case he doesn't, if anyone is interested email me off line and I will pass along his email address (he said it was ok to do so.) He also has lots of old HO loco and car parts (too many to even go through) but I suspect that if you know what you are looking for he can dig through to see if he can find it. He is not a collector so don't expect him to know what it is he has, he is strictly a good dealer who helps move stuff out of estates and back into circulation. He usually calls me up to look over his stuff and tell him what he has. Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4751	From: erieberk	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Garry, Just getting back to you with a few omissions after going through your Atghearn metal spead shhet. At first I though you had it all jumbled up, but then I see you have it laid out in alphabetical order of the railroads. I have my list according to kit number (A-102 to A-127, etc., then A-175 to A-186 and so on). Wow, this takes time cross-referring all the numbers without making a mistake. I had time only to go through all the 40' Standard AAR Box cars -- will try tackling some more tomorrow. Here's what else I came up with, please add these to your list: ATHEARN A-107 ACL 20728 (what is your #20345.7?) A-109 CE&I 64449 A-112 CP 221490, 223416 A-113 ERIE 79182, 79724 A-114 FEC 21103 A-118 DL&W 51969 A-119 MONON (CIL) 34 A-121 NKP (NYC&StL) 16390, 16392, 16393 -- NOTE: you have this as NC&StL (same as A-185) A-122 NP 15823, 15825 (what is your #16217.5?) A-123 PM 81237, 84222, 84223 A-124 RI You have two schemes; there are three, the 3rd being Rocket Freight. 100 Years - 14068, 14089 Rocket Freight - 148900, 148904 A-125 SAL 19699 A-126 SP 60700, 60752, 60798, 82730 A-127 UP (OWR&N) 188796, 188966 Uncataloged: CG (Central of Georgia) - 4527, 4561, 4570 LV (Lehigh Valley) - 61400 SOO (SOO Line) - 43342, 43345, 43347, 43348, 43349, 44346 Park Varieties: BCK (Buffalo Creek) - 2450, 2454 CN (Canadian National) - 524100. C&O (Chesapeake & Ohio) - 15347 CP (Canadian Pacific -- Int'l of ME) - 269024, 269781 CB&Q (FW&D) - 8518, 9250 ERIE - 82057, 82148, 82439, 82456, 82660, 82970 GN (Great Northern -- Box Car Red) 18664 PRR (Pennsylvania RR) - 78925 Bowser -- LV (Lehigh Valley ) - 62604 PRR (Pennsylvania RR) - 24063 Modelmaster -- Unfinished kit supplied early on by Athearn, to be painted by this manufacturer (in only one color scheme). GN (Great Northern -- Orange) - 10090, 10320, 10322, 10325, 10347, 10355, 10476, 10557 (there might be more numbers on these!) Best Regards, Ray Wetzel ---------------O---------------- --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > Hi Chuck, Ray, et al, > > I have an Excel spreed sheet with the Athearn (also, Park, Menzies, Bowers > +) with most of the kit numbers and the car numbers for that kit. > > The sheet has code to separate the various manufactures. The numbers are > coded to show if the number is from an original list given to me, or a new > number I found. > > You are welcome to a copy. > > Garry Spear > > On 1/2/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the > > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in > > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should > > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) or > > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > > different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than > > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' > > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, Laconia, > > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any > > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when they > > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained all > > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers which > > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would still > > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L-W > > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal or > > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would > > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number > > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing them > > down so would have to go all back through the collection to find that > > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com>, "Chuck > > Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet > > together > > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > > reporting > > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: > > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) > > car > > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > > reporting > > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN > > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the > > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > > > too. Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com, > > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > > confirm that > > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version > > > (with > > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the > > metal > > > parts are > > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the > > > twelve > > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > > > metal² > > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that > > > it¹s out > > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > > > sure. > > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single- door > > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production > > runs. > > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- > > 301 > > > PRR > > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), > > A- > > > 303 > > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > > > numbers). > > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and > > 4 > > > of > > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, > > > but > > > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > <mailto:vintageHO% <vintageHO%25> > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Don > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > <mailto:vintageHO% <vintageHO%25> > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Don > > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > > > early > > > > > 50s. > > > > >> > Jay > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > > > new > > > > > topic > > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > > >> > > > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------- - > > > > > -------- > > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > > > >> > . > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------- - > > > > > ---------- > > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4752	From: erieberk	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Garry, I forgot to mention -- I did not check you Menzies numbers as I don't have any of mine written down, I'll have to go all through the carton of them, but it will take time as they completely fill one 2' x 4' x 18" carton, so that'a lot of different plastic kit bags. TTYL, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hi Garry, Just getting back to you with a few omissions after going > through your Atghearn metal spead shhet. At first I though you had > it all jumbled up, but then I see you have it laid out in > alphabetical order of the railroads. I have my list according to kit > number (A-102 to A-127, etc., then A-175 to A-186 and so on). Wow, > this takes time cross-referring all the numbers without making a > mistake. I had time only to go through all the 40' Standard AAR Box > cars -- will try tackling some more tomorrow. > > Here's what else I came up with, please add these to your list: > > ATHEARN > > A-107 ACL 20728 (what is your #20345.7?) > > A-109 CE&I 64449 > > A-112 CP 221490, 223416 > > A-113 ERIE 79182, 79724 > > A-114 FEC 21103 > > A-118 DL&W 51969 > > A-119 MONON (CIL) 34 > > A-121 NKP (NYC&StL) 16390, 16392, 16393 -- NOTE: you have this as > NC&StL (same as A-185) > > A-122 NP 15823, 15825 (what is your #16217.5?) > > A-123 PM 81237, 84222, 84223 > > A-124 RI You have two schemes; there are three, the 3rd being Rocket > Freight. > 100 Years - 14068, 14089 Rocket Freight - 148900, 148904 > > A-125 SAL 19699 > > A-126 SP 60700, 60752, 60798, 82730 > > A-127 UP (OWR&N) 188796, 188966 > > Uncataloged: > > CG (Central of Georgia) - 4527, 4561, 4570 > > LV (Lehigh Valley) - 61400 > > SOO (SOO Line) - 43342, 43345, 43347, 43348, 43349, 44346 > > > Park Varieties: > > BCK (Buffalo Creek) - 2450, 2454 > > CN (Canadian National) - 524100. > > C&O (Chesapeake & Ohio) - 15347 > > CP (Canadian Pacific -- Int'l of ME) - 269024, 269781 > > CB&Q (FW&D) - 8518, 9250 > > ERIE - 82057, 82148, 82439, 82456, 82660, 82970 > > GN (Great Northern -- Box Car Red) 18664 > > PRR (Pennsylvania RR) - 78925 > > > Bowser -- > > LV (Lehigh Valley ) - 62604 > > PRR (Pennsylvania RR) - 24063 > > > Modelmaster -- Unfinished kit supplied early on by Athearn, to be > painted by this manufacturer (in only one color scheme). > > GN (Great Northern -- Orange) - 10090, 10320, 10322, 10325, 10347, > 10355, 10476, 10557 (there might be more numbers on these!) > > Best Regards, Ray Wetzel > > ---------------O---------------- > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Chuck, Ray, et al, > > > > I have an Excel spreed sheet with the Athearn (also, Park, Menzies, > Bowers > > +) with most of the kit numbers and the car numbers for that kit. > > > > The sheet has code to separate the various manufactures. The > numbers are > > coded to show if the number is from an original list given to me, > or a new > > number I found. > > > > You are welcome to a copy. > > > > Garry Spear > > > > On 1/2/08, erieberk <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, > the > > > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in > > > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we > should > > > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738 (?) > or > > > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > > > different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more > than > > > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > > > > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > > > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' > > > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, > Laconia, > > > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any > > > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > > > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when > they > > > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained > all > > > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > > > > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets > are > > > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers > which > > > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would > still > > > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > > > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > > > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, > L-W > > > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal > or > > > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would > > > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number > > > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing > them > > > down so would have to go all back through the collection to find > that > > > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > > > > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com>, "Chuck > > > Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet > > > together > > > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > > > reporting > > > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto: > > > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A- 178) > > > car > > > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > > > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > > > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > > > reporting > > > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known > THIRTEEN > > > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out > the > > > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least > answer > > > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > > > > too. Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com, > > > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > > > confirm that > > > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² > version > > > > (with > > > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the > > > metal > > > > parts are > > > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of > the > > > > twelve > > > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across > ³all > > > > metal² > > > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is > that > > > > it¹s out > > > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me > for > > > > sure. > > > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single- > door > > > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been > confirmed > > > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a > couple of > > > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production > > > runs. > > > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; > #A- > > > 301 > > > > PRR > > > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting > numbers), > > > A- > > > > 303 > > > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > > > > numbers). > > > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's > and > > > 4 > > > > of > > > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal > Athearns, > > > > but > > > > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% <vintageHO%25> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% <vintageHO%25> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > > > > early > > > > > > 50s. > > > > > >> > Jay > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > > > > new > > > > > > topic > > > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------- -- > - > > > > > > -------- > > > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your > career > > > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > > > > >> > . > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------- -- > - > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > Yahoo! > > > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4753	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /MANUF Athearn.XLS Uploaded by : garrettspear <garrettspear@...> Description : List of Metal Car Kits with Numbers You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/MANUF%20Athearn.XLS To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, garrettspear <garrettspear@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4754	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Yuck.  Some how I messed up the information. I just reloaded the file, with better info.  Looks like I copied 1 column onto another.  Anyhow the number look better. I forgot that i sorted the list be in roadname order.  Trying to check a car on the list at a train meet as to hard in kit number sequence.  Please feel free to download the list and sort it. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4755	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Mike Sloane wrote: > Or get OpenOffice - it is free and does everything that the MS Office > suite does and both reads and writes all MS Office files. That is what I > use in all my Windowz and Linux machines. <www.openoffice.org/> Dl'ed it last night (107 Mb!) Have not installed it yet. Since I also use Firefox and Thunderbird and trashed MS's pathetic offerings this is more my style. Now if I could just find a good freeware DVD authoring program... -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ You know you're getting old when you no longer take naps from noon to 6 PM.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4756	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Downloading it now, I'll try it out.  (Such a madhouse at work today I didn't have a chance to look at the file there).   Thanks   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: prrp5a To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Don, Although I don't want to provide a formal endorsement, if you go to the web site,  http://www.openoffice.org/  you can download a free, open source  system that can be used to replace word, excel, etc.  It is  pretty compatible, the price is right and it works. Jim ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 8:00:27 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? I could not open it, and couldn't find a shareware program that would.  Mickeysoft wants $150 for excel.   In my case, all is not lost since I DO have it on my machine at work, so I can print it out there, but that doesn't help other users.   What I THINK I can do is scan the printed hard copy at work into a PDF file and post that (if it prints out into standard 8 1/2 x 11 pages)  I'll try to do that tomorrow.   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Rick, For some reason, I think you can still open it though the group.  Could you try and report back, so this rumor can be dispelled? Thanks,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   erieberk wrote: > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > completed,.. . I'd prefer to see the list in a text or PDF format, since I don't have Excel and have no desire whatsoever to acquire it. I can't be the only one who doesn't own and use Excel or any of the other MS Office products. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocitie s.com/seventysix inchesoffun/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4757	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/3/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Ray, With regards to the other list, it makes no difference to me.  It sounds like you have many lists, so just send me one and when it is done, send another.  I will post them at the site and others can help to fill in any blanks.  The MDC one worked well.  I sure we will learn a lot when this is father along.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Chuck, Now that we have Garry's metal Athearn listing. I'm no longer needing to send you that, which saves us both a lot of work (thanks again, Garry). I'll check this Athearn list out in the Files Section to look it over for possible omissions and/or corrections. I know even the extensive list I have is not complete, as I've seen suspected (but previously unconfirmed) new numbers on eBay offerings of these cars which were never verified before. I've tried following the Athearn metal eBay listings for possible new numbers, but found it impossible to keep tabs on every listing. Now, as for these others, the info from any of them is no problem. I can supply you with most of it, having complete or near-complete collections of most (yeah, I'm a pack rat, big time, LOL). Let me know where you want to start. If I don't have it written down, this will give me a good excuse to go digging. As for the manufacturers of which my collection is not quite complete, maybe the rest of the interested members will be able to contribute numbers. BCNU, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Ray, > > For the others, I certainly can do something in format, the Athearn style of > Garry's or the MDC style. But I have almost no info on the makers listed, > so would need much input. > > > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:51 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) or > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, Laconia, > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when they > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained all > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets are > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers which > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would still > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L- W > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of w:st="on"> Canada , Ideal or > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing them > down so would have to go all back through the collection to find that > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet > together > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > reporting > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. < href="http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104">http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A-178) > car > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > reporting > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known THIRTEEN > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out the > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > > too. Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com, > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > confirm that > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² version > > (with > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the > metal > > parts are > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of the > > twelve > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > > metal² > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is that > > it¹s out > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > > sure. > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single- door > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple of > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production > runs. > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- > 301 > > PRR > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting numbers), > A- > > 303 > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > > numbers). > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's and > 4 > > of > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal Athearns, > > but > > > > these were "distinctive" . Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups. com> , "Don > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ > > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > >> > > > > >> > Don > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups. com> > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Don > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > > early > > > > 50s. > > > >> > Jay > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > > new > > > > topic > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > >> > > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > -------- > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder. net. > > > >> > . > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > ---------- > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4758	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 6:08 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Or get OpenOffice - it is free and does everything that the MS Office > suite does and both reads and writes all MS Office files. That is what I > use in all my Windowz and Linux machines. <www.openoffice.org/> > > Mike Thanks, worked fine. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4759	From: erieberk	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Garry, Probably depends on what you mean by "messed up;" you do have the in order (in railroad-name alphabetical order). I find it easier for myself to have them in separate Groups by kit numbers, in lots of what Group they're in -- Standard Single-Door 40' box cars, Special Single-Door 40' box cars and so on, instead of having them all mixed in. As for sorting out your spread sheet, I'd much prefer you handle it, if you would. I'm not that good at that stuff and don't want to mess it up. Looks like you added in the new road numbers I gave you. Haven't looked through it completely as its much easier to read when its printed out, so I'll wait 'till you complete it. I've included the remainder of the missing numbers for all the rest of the kit #'s/road names, as best as I know what they all are, here below even though there still could be a couple still in the "woodwork" that we don't know about. I've taken most of them from my collection so I can verify them, plus some I've gotten from a few reliable friends of mine (whom I've known for 20 - 30+ years) such as Frank Brua (Park Varieties, George Horan, Burt Poppenga and J. ("Dave") Spanagel, all who helped with putting the Greenberg Athearn Guide together. Still have to go through the G.F. Menzies too, next chance I get. ATHEARN: 40' Special Box Cars -- A-177 C&O (Luminous) - 15559, 15880 A-178 NYC (Pacemaker) - 174475, 174479 A-179 SP (Abbr.) Overnight - 97732, 99723 A-184 MP (Eagle) - 120175 50' Automobile Box Cars -- A-201 KCS - 20867 A-203 MKT - 62009 40' Round Roof Box Cars -- A-302 DT&I - 17709, 17757 40' Round Roof Automibile Box Cars -- A-306 DT&I - 12108 50' Round Roof Automobile Box Cars -- A=310 DT&I - 19907 40' Standard Refrigerator Cars -- A-401 MDT (NYC) - 9040 A-402 IC - 50037, 50456 A-403 BREX (CB&Q) - 74230 A-404 FGEX - 9259, 9272 A-405 ART (MP/WAB) - 37291 A-411 Armour - 292 A-412 ART - 36022, 36095, 36129, 36291, 36172 Tank Cars -- A-504 Crystal - 306 A-506 Mobilgas - 8039 A-508 SP (Diesel) - 55449, 55458, 55463, 55472 A-513 UTLX - 223 A-514 Deep Rock - 2144, 2156 40' Flat Cars -- A-601 C&NW - 42002, 42082, 42345 A-602 CRR (Clinchfield) -10073 A-603 GTW - 64300, 64276, 64342 PARK VARIETIES: 50' Automobile Box Cars -- ACL (Atlantic Coast Line) - (Number Decals) 14000 - 14499 B&O (Baltimore & Ohio) - 292812, 297440 PRR (Pennsylvania RR) - 74405, 76233 That about wraps it up! Best, Ray Wetzel --------------O--------------- --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > Yuck. Some how I messed up the information. > > I just reloaded the file, with better info. Looks like I copied 1 column > onto another. Anyhow the number look better. > > I forgot that i sorted the list be in roadname order. Trying to check a car > on the list at a train meet as to hard in kit number sequence. Please feel > free to download the list and sort it. > > Garry Spear >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4760	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hello Don: You sure opened a subject that seems to catch the fancy of a lot of members. I know I went through all the posts on this subject thoroughly (especially the Athearn listing, thanks to Garry Spear and Ray Wetzel) and came away with a lot of info. Keep up the good work.  Al Campbell Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4761	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

erieberk wrote: > Hi Garry, Probably depends on what you mean by "messed up;" you do > have the in order (in railroad-name alphabetical order). I find it > easier for myself to have them in separate Groups by kit numbers, in > lots of what Group they're in -- Standard Single-Door 40' box cars, > Special Single-Door 40' box cars and so on, instead of having them all > mixed in. Sounds like a database might be preferable to a spreadsheet. Then you could sort on whichever field suits you. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ 666.1 - Bug fix of The Beast

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4762	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/4/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Sharing information is what this group is all about, and we've been EXTREMELY fortunate to have so many knowledgable members who are willing to share what they know.   Thanks to you all.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: madchemep2@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 7:54 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Hello Don: You sure opened a subject that seems to catch the fancy of a lot of members. I know I went through all the posts on this subject thoroughly (especially the Athearn listing, thanks to Garry Spear and Ray Wetzel) and came away with a lot of info. Keep up the good work.  Al Campbell Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4763	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Rick, You are right.  But since even less people have databases, I just add a sequence column as the first column to my sheets.  Then after doing all of the other sorts, like by road name.  I can just resort by the seq. and the list is the way I want to present it. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:39 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   erieberk wrote: > Hi Garry, Probably depends on what you mean by "messed up;" you do > have the in order (in railroad-name alphabetical order). I find it > easier for myself to have them in separate Groups by kit numbers, in > lots of what Group they're in -- Standard Single-Door 40' box cars, > Special Single-Door 40' box cars and so on, instead of having them all > mixed in. Sounds like a database might be preferable to a spreadsheet. Then you could sort on whichever field suits you. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocitie s.com/seventysix inchesoffun/,_._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4764	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Neat idea!! Garry Spear On 1/5/08, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: Rick, You are right.  But since even less people have databases, I just add a sequence column as the first column to my sheets.  Then after doing all of the other sorts, like by road name.  I can just resort by the seq. and the list is the way I want to present it. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:39 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   erieberk wrote: > Hi Garry, Probably depends on what you mean by "messed up;" you do > have the in order (in railroad-name alphabetical order). I find it > easier for myself to have them in separate Groups by kit numbers, in > lots of what Group they're in -- Standard Single-Door 40' box cars, > Special Single-Door 40' box cars and so on, instead of having them all > mixed in. Sounds like a database might be preferable to a spreadsheet. Then you could sort on whichever field suits you. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ ,_._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4765	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Gentlemen........ We are overlooking the free Office suite known as Open Office. http://www.openoffice.org/ You want a database anyone can own, there it is as a part of the suite. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jan 5, 2008, at 8:09 AM, Chuck Higdon wrote: Rick, You are right.  But since even less people have databases, I just add a sequence column as the first column to my sheets.  Then after doing all of the other sorts, like by road name.  I can just resort by the seq. and the list is the way I want to present it. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: Rick Jones Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:39 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   erieberk wrote: > Hi Garry, Probably depends on what you mean by "messed up;" you do  > have the in order (in railroad-name alphabetical order). I find it  > easier for myself to have them in separate Groups by kit numbers, in  > lots of what Group they're in -- Standard Single-Door 40' box cars,  > Special Single-Door 40' box cars and so on, instead of having them all  > mixed in. Sounds like a database might be preferable to a spreadsheet. Then  you could sort on whichever field suits you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4766	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

That was actually mentioned here a couple days ago for those who don't have excell.  I downloaded it myself the other night.   There is a database function on the group home page, but I don't know how much memory is allowed, or how functional it really is.   BTW, PING to Mike, were you able to make me any passenger car ends?  I'm ready for about five pair, have a whole pile of Varney card sides ready to go.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? Gentlemen........ We are overlooking the free Office suite known as Open Office. http://www.openoffice.org/ You want a database anyone can own, there it is as a part of the suite. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jan 5, 2008, at 8:09 AM, Chuck Higdon wrote: Rick, You are right.  But since even less people have databases, I just add a sequence column as the first column to my sheets.  Then after doing all of the other sorts, like by road name.  I can just resort by the seq. and the list is the way I want to present it. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 From: Rick Jones Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:39 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? erieberk wrote: > Hi Garry, Probably depends on what you mean by "messed up;" you do  > have the in order (in railroad-name alphabetical order). I find it  > easier for myself to have them in separate Groups by kit numbers, in  > lots of what Group they're in -- Standard Single-Door 40' box cars,  > Special Single-Door 40' box cars and so on, instead of having them all  > mixed in. Sounds like a database might be preferable to a spreadsheet. Then  you could sort on whichever field suits you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4767	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Jog me again............ I've got the patterns.......... Which car types did you want???? I suppose I should just go and make them all........... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jan 5, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Don Dellmann wrote: That was actually mentioned here a couple days ago for those who don't have excell.  I downloaded it myself the other night.   There is a database function on the group home page, but I don't know how much memory is allowed, or how functional it really is.   BTW, PING to Mike, were you able to make me any passenger car ends?  I'm ready for about five pair, have a whole pile of Varney card sides ready to go.   Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4768	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

Don,   Are these car sides heavies or lightweights?  I just discovered a Card sided passenger car that has the exact same pattern as the English metal cast and Penn Line plastic molded coaches.  The trucks on this car do say Varney on them and there were two blocks just like on the underside of the Penn line floor molding.  So my question is? was this card side coach a Varney side?  It seems to have seat inside also.   Thanks,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:22 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?   That was actually mentioned here a couple days ago for those who don't have excell.  I downloaded it myself the other night.   There is a database function on the group home page, but I don't know how much memory is allowed, or how functional it really is.   BTW, PING to Mike, were you able to make me any passenger car ends?  I'm ready for about five pair, have a whole pile of Varney card sides ready to go.   Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4769	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

Attachments : This subject made me dig through my JE/Hobbyline box. I found two combines one plastic and one metal also have a card sided one that Don had identified as a Varney a while back. It was received as a Varney and had six wheel trucks marked Varney, I though four wheelers would be look better so put a Walther set on. Not sure of the dates on these so wonder who ripped off who, John English or Gordin Varney? Roger Aultman Don Are these car sides heavies or lightweights? I just discovered a Card sided passenger car that has the exact same pattern as the English metal cast and Penn Line plastic molded coaches. The trucks on this car do say Varney on them and there were two blocks just like on the underside of the Penn line floor molding. So my question is? was this card side coach a Varney side? It seems to have seat inside also. Thanks, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 \Recent Activity 2New Members 27New Photos 1New Files Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Real Food Group on Yahoo! Groups What does real food mean to you? Yahoo! Groups Wellness Spot A resource for living the Curves lifestyle..

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4770	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Just that Walthers end that you made a mold of at Trainfest.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? Jog me again............ I've got the patterns.......... Which car types did you want???? I suppose I should just go and make them all........... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jan 5, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Don Dellmann wrote: That was actually mentioned here a couple days ago for those who don't have excell.  I downloaded it myself the other night.   There is a database function on the group home page, but I don't know how much memory is allowed, or how functional it really is.   BTW, PING to Mike, were you able to make me any passenger car ends?  I'm ready for about five pair, have a whole pile of Varney card sides ready to go.   Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4771	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

the John English cars were sold without trucks. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > This subject made me dig through my JE/Hobbyline box. I found two > combines > one plastic and one metal also have a card sided one that Don had > identified > as a Varney a while back. It was received as a Varney and had six wheel > trucks marked Varney, I though four wheelers would be look better so put a > Walther set on. Not sure of the dates on these so wonder who ripped off > who, John English or Gordin Varney? Roger Aultman > > > Don > Are these car sides heavies or lightweights? I just discovered a Card > sided > passenger car that has the exact same pattern as the English metal cast > and > Penn Line plastic molded coaches. The trucks on this car do say Varney on > them and there were two blocks just like on the underside of the Penn line > floor molding. So my question is? was this card side coach a Varney side? > It seems to have seat inside also. > > Thanks, > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > \Recent Activity > 2New Members > 27New Photos > 1New Files > Visit Your Group > Yahoo! News > Odd News > You won't believe > it, but it's true > Real Food Group > on Yahoo! Groups > What does real food > mean to you? > Yahoo! Groups > Wellness Spot > A resource for living > the Curves lifestyle.. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4772	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > This subject made me dig through my JE/Hobbyline box. I found two > combines > one plastic and one metal also have a card sided one that Don had > identified > as a Varney a while back. It was received as a Varney and had six wheel > trucks marked Varney, I though four wheelers would be look better so put a > Walther set on. Not sure of the dates on these so wonder who ripped off > who, John English or Gordin Varney? Roger Aultman > > > Don > Are these car sides heavies or lightweights? I just discovered a Card > sided > passenger car that has the exact same pattern as the English metal cast > and > Penn Line plastic molded coaches. The trucks on this car do say Varney on > them and there were two blocks just like on the underside of the Penn line > floor molding. So my question is? was this card side coach a Varney side? > It seems to have seat inside also. > > Thanks, I don't know when the Varney was introduced, but it is in my 1948 catalog, so it was before that date. When did English start production? FWIW I have a couple more pairs of sides for the combine if anyone is interested. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4773	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

In the later production era, plastics and trainset dominated--it often seemed that the manufacturers were passing the dies around--actually probably were producing for each other--I know of a couple of brands that had recognizable Varney F-3 shells--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:54 PM > Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > > >> This subject made me dig through my JE/Hobbyline box. I found two >> combines >> one plastic and one metal also have a card sided one that Don had >> identified >> as a Varney a while back. It was received as a Varney and had six wheel >> trucks marked Varney, I though four wheelers would be look better so put >> a >> Walther set on. Not sure of the dates on these so wonder who ripped off >> who, John English or Gordin Varney? Roger Aultman >> >> >> Don >> Are these car sides heavies or lightweights? I just discovered a Card >> sided >> passenger car that has the exact same pattern as the English metal cast >> and >> Penn Line plastic molded coaches. The trucks on this car do say Varney >> on >> them and there were two blocks just like on the underside of the Penn >> line >> floor molding. So my question is? was this card side coach a Varney >> side? >> It seems to have seat inside also. >> >> Thanks, > > I don't know when the Varney was introduced, but it is in my 1948 catalog, > so it was before that date. When did English start production? > > FWIW I have a couple more pairs of sides for the combine if anyone is > interested. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4774	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Varney Coach

Attachments : Thanks all, for the responses.  I have attached two photos of the car.  The end door way is not open.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   I don't know when the Varney was introduced, but it is in my 1948 catalog, so it was before that date. When did English start production? FWIW I have a couple more pairs of sides for the combine if anyone is interested. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4775	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Coach

Attachments :

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4776	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > In the later production era, plastics and trainset dominated--it often > seemed that the manufacturers were passing the dies around--actually > probably were producing for each other--I know of a couple of brands that > had recognizable Varney F-3 shells--gj Was the Gilbert F-3 a Varney? I've often wondered if the Penn Line F-7 was from Athearn (although the windshields were opened up a little more, more "square cornered"). The Revell one is slightly different. I had one I thought was a Globe until I got another that was definitely Revell (still on the original unsalvagable Revell drive). Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4777	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Coach

Yes, that is the car. Thanks, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:15 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Coach   Compare yours to this one.  This IS a Varney (I have the box an identical unassembled kit came in, and some more sides)   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:02 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Coach   Thanks all, for the responses.  I have attached two photos of the car.  The end door way is not open.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   I don't know when the Varney was introduced, but it is in my 1948 catalog, so it was before that date. When did English start production? FWIW I have a couple more pairs of sides for the combine if anyone is interested. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4778	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

Penn Line used two different F-7 shells, first the Globe/Athearn on the Fleishman style chassis.  The slanted motor on the chassis over the front truck and the spring drive to just the rear truck.  Then one with shorter ladders with the motor over/on the rear truck and the universal thought the fuel tank to the front truck.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:23 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@4fast. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > In the later production era, plastics and trainset dominated--it often > seemed that the manufacturers were passing the dies around--actually > probably were producing for each other--I know of a couple of brands that > had recognizable Varney F-3 shells--gj Was the Gilbert F-3 a Varney? I've often wondered if the Penn Line F-7 was from Athearn (although the windshields were opened up a little more, more "square cornered"). The Revell one is slightly different. I had one I thought was a Globe until I got another that was definitely Revell (still on the original unsalvagable Revell drive). Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4779	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

I have seven Penn Line F7 bodies. Mind, the bodies only, and I found they fit perfectly on an Athearn frame. All I needed to do was to open the pilot coupler door a bit to let the Athearn frame-mount coupler through. Seems that Penn Line had pilot mounted X2F Horn Hooks attached. Yeah, got seven Penn Line F7 bodies and 17 coach bodies on eBay around Christmas, been making my own frames out of Evergreen Styrene for the cars that are missing them (All plastic coaches) and repainting when needed. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Penn Line used two different F-7 shells, first the Globe/Athearn on the > Fleishman style chassis. The slanted motor on the chassis over the front > truck and the spring drive to just the rear truck. Then one with shorter > ladders with the motor over/on the rear truck and the universal thought the > fuel tank to the front truck. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:23 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476%404fast.net> net> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 1:53 AM > Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > > > In the later production era, plastics and trainset dominated--it often > > seemed that the manufacturers were passing the dies around--actually > > probably were producing for each other--I know of a couple of brands that > > had recognizable Varney F-3 shells--gj > > Was the Gilbert F-3 a Varney? I've often wondered if the Penn Line F-7 was > from Athearn (although the windshields were opened up a little more, more > "square cornered"). The Revell one is slightly different. I had one I > thought was a Globe until I got another that was definitely Revell (still on > > the original unsalvagable Revell drive). > > Don > > don.dellmann@ <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> prodigy.net > http://www.geocitie <http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann> > s.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics> yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO> > yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY> > yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4780	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Chuck,  Okay, Let's start with Pacific HO/ Silver Streak.  I was about to write you about making things easier this time, that's why I chose this, but as you can see, its taken me a couple of days to get it all straightened out.  There will be some numbers missing as I never bought any of the Hart Gondolas, since they didn't fit in with my layout.  I never bought all the cabooses either, since again, I had no use for most of the other caboose roads on my Northeast scene.  I'll also be including the Walthers Silver Streak releases from after they took over.  Unlike Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff, Walthers at least continued in the same series numbers for the particular car type, after the end of Pacific HO's series' numbers for a group.  Will include Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff at the very end, showing kit numbers and roadnames only if you think its helpful.   Many of their kit numbers for their line of Silver Streak road names were already previously used for OTHER road names put out by Pacific HO and Walthers Silver Streak, making their kit numbers conflicting and confusing.     After this, I thought we could also do an update spread sheet on the Globe numbers, if you'd like to, many of which Garry provided last March.  In checking back just now, I can't find where my additional numbers were ever added to the listing, as I can't find anything to that effect in the archives -- could just be me though, in not being able to find it, but otherwise we could use something more complete.  Later,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4781	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Ray, UR right, I have not updated any Globe numbers.  I'm not sure I have the email with the updates. Not real easy to do.  The spread sheet contains: Athearn, Globe, International, Mantua, MDC, Pacific Pike, Silver Streak (metal Tanks), Thomas (tank cars), Ulrich, & Varney.  The list is my observations and inventor.  What I post is a sanitized version of this list. Adding a number can be a problem.  I try to keep the numbers in sequence (try is to operative word).  Adding and sorting the number is not a big problem, but keeping my inventory is a problem.  I use colors as an inventory control and the colors do not sort.  i.e. the data sorts not the cell format with the data; maybe not the best method to control inventory. Garry Spear On 1/6/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@... > wrote: Chuck,  Okay, Let's start with Pacific HO/ Silver Streak.  I was about to write you about making things easier this time, that's why I chose this, but as you can see, its taken me a couple of days to get it all straightened out.  There will be some numbers missing as I never bought any of the Hart Gondolas, since they didn't fit in with my layout.  I never bought all the cabooses either, since again, I had no use for most of the other caboose roads on my Northeast scene.  I'll also be including the Walthers Silver Streak releases from after they took over.  Unlike Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff, Walthers at least continued in the same series numbers for the particular car type, after the end of Pacific HO's series' numbers for a group.  Will include Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff at the very end, showing kit numbers and roadnames only if you think its helpful.   Many of their kit numbers for their line of Silver Streak road names were already previously used for OTHER road names put out by Pacific HO and Walthers Silver Streak, making their kit numbers conflicting and confusing.     After this, I thought we could also do an update spread sheet on the Globe numbers, if you'd like to, many of which Garry provided last March.  In checking back just now, I can't find where my additional numbers were ever added to the listing, as I can't find anything to that effect in the archives -- could just be me though, in not being able to find it, but otherwise we could use something more complete.  Later,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4782	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

I have a November 1948 MR where JE was advertsiing the consolodation castings. Roger Aultman I don't know when the Varney was introduced, but it is in my 1948 catalog, so it was before that date. When did English start production? FWIW I have a couple more pairs of sides for the combine if anyone is interested. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4783	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Ray, I suppose that I could just work form a Walthers Catalog from 1989 or so.  I think that is my oldest, which would start things for the file.  In the format of the MDC cars, unless someone has a suggestion on the format.  I have no info on Globe, so can’t do anything with out your help on that.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk@... Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:42 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Chuck,  Okay, Let's start with Pacific HO/ Silver Streak.  I was about to write you about making things easier this time, that's why I chose this, but as you can see, its taken me a couple of days to get it all straightened out.  There will be some numbers missing as I never bought any of the Hart Gondolas, since they didn't fit in with my layout.  I never bought all the cabooses either, since again, I had no use for most of the other caboose roads on my Northeast scene.  I'll also be including the Walthers Silver Streak releases from after they took over.  Unlike Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff, Walthers at least continued in the same series numbers for the particular car type, after the end of Pacific HO's series' numbers for a group.  Will include Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff at the very end, showing kit numbers and roadnames only if you think its helpful.   Many of their kit numbers for their line of Silver Streak road names were already previously used for OTHER road names put out by Pacific HO and Walthers Silver Streak, making their kit numbers conflicting and confusing.     After this, I thought we could also do an update spread sheet on the Globe numbers, if you'd like to, many of which Garry provided last March.  In checking back just now, I can't find where my additional numbers were ever added to the listing, as I can't find anything to that effect in the archives -- could just be me though, in not being able to find it, but otherwise we could use something more complete.  Later,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4784	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Alright Chuck, Here it goes with Pacific HO -- Silver Streak. Note (1), all box cars are painted bnox car red unless otherwise stated. Note (2), all cabooses are painted caboose red unless otherwise stated. Note (3), all caboose kit numbers in the #100 series range starting after #121 are Walthers' Silver Streak. Note (4), all box car kit numbers in the #200 number series range starting after #220 are Walthers' Silver Streak. Note (5), all auto car kit numbers in the #300 number series range starting after #303 are Walthers' Silver Streak. Note (6), all reefer kit numbers in the #400 number series starting after #419 are Walthers' Silver Streak. Note (7), all hart gondola kit numbers in the #500 number series range starting after #506 are Walthers Silver Streak. PACIFIC HO Standard Caboose Kit Number Roadname/Remarks Road (reporting) Number Color #103 Unlettered 28' None #104 Unlettered 30' None #110 SP Box Car Red #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer Yellow #112 B&O 28' #113 GN 24' #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver #116 SP (Bay Window) Box Car Red #117 Unlettered (Bay Window) Box Car Red #118 Pacific Electric (no Cupola) #119 Unlettered 34' (no Cupola) #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 #121 Unlettered None #122 MILW (Bay Window) 0255 Silver #123 ATSF (Truss Rod) Box Car Red #124 CB&Q Box Car Red #125 SOU (Truss Rod) X-3349 #126 C&NW #127 C&O A-616 Drovers and Combination Caboose #107 MP 32' Box Car Red #108 Unlettered 34' Reefer Yellow #131 CB&Q 3928 Box Car Red #132 Sierra RR Box Car Red #133 Pacific Lumber 78 4-Wheel Bobber Caboose #175 Unlettered #176 EJ&E 30 Reefer Yellow #177 DL&W 508 Box Car Red #178 MA & PA 2005 #179 WM 2216 #180 PRR 485497 Box Car Red #181 NYC 17005 Box Car Red #182 L&NE 511 #183 B&O C-1775 #184 MILW 0478 Box Car Red #185 RDG 90258 #186 GN X-94 #187 SOU X 421 Please feel free to make any additions or corrections, as needed. We'll see what this looks like on your end first before I send more. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > With regards to the other list, it makes no difference to me. It sounds > like you have many lists, so just send me one and when it is done, send > another. I will post them at the site and others can help to fill in any > blanks. The MDC one worked well. I sure we will learn a lot when this is > father along. > > > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:10 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Chuck, Now that we have Garry's metal Athearn listing. I'm no longer > needing to send you that, which saves us both a lot of work (thanks > again, Garry). I'll check this Athearn list out in the Files Section > to look it over for possible omissions and/or corrections. I know > even the extensive list I have is not complete, as I've seen > suspected (but previously unconfirmed) new numbers on eBay offerings > of these cars which were never verified before. I've tried following > the Athearn metal eBay listings for possible new numbers, but found > it impossible to keep tabs on every listing. > > Now, as for these others, the info from any of them is no problem. I > can supply you with most of it, having complete or near-complete > collections of most (yeah, I'm a pack rat, big time, LOL). Let me > know where you want to start. If I don't have it written down, this > will give me a good excuse to go digging. As for the manufacturers > of which my collection is not quite complete, maybe the rest of the > interested members will be able to contribute numbers. BCNU, Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > For the others, I certainly can do something in format, the Athearn > style of > > Garry's or the MDC style. But I have almost no info on the makers > listed, > > so would need much input. > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:51 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, the > > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back in > > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we should > > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738(?) > or > > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > > different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more than > > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' > > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, > Laconia, > > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or any > > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when they > > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained > all > > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets > are > > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers > which > > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would > still > > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, L- > W > > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal or > > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would > > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting number > > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing > them > > down so would have to go all back through the collection to find > that > > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel sheet > > together > > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > > reporting > > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. <http://community. > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A- 178) > > car > > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > > reporting > > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known > THIRTEEN > > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out > the > > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least answer > > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New Year > > > too. Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com, > > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > > confirm that > > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² > version > > > (with > > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the > > metal > > > parts are > > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of > the > > > twelve > > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across ³all > > > metal² > > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is > that > > > it¹s out > > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me for > > > sure. > > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single- > door > > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been confirmed > > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a couple > of > > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production > > runs. > > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; #A- > > 301 > > > PRR > > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting > numbers), > > A- > > > 303 > > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > > > numbers). > > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's > and > > 4 > > > of > > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal > Athearns, > > > but > > > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Don > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Don > > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > > > early > > > > > 50s. > > > > >> > Jay > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a > > > new > > > > > topic > > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > > >> > > > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------- - > > > > > -------- > > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career > > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > > > >> > . > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------- - > > > > > ---------- > > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4785	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Coach

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4786	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

I had a Gilbert F3A that was definitely Varney. Back in 1959--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 1:53 AM > Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > > >> In the later production era, plastics and trainset dominated--it often >> seemed that the manufacturers were passing the dies around--actually >> probably were producing for each other--I know of a couple of brands that >> had recognizable Varney F-3 shells--gj > > Was the Gilbert F-3 a Varney? I've often wondered if the Penn Line F-7 > was > from Athearn (although the windshields were opened up a little more, more > "square cornered"). The Revell one is slightly different. I had one I > thought was a Globe until I got another that was definitely Revell (still > on > the original unsalvagable Revell drive). > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4787	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Alright, looks okay from here. Hope you can figure it out okay. I see in the email that all the lines condensed to the left instead of having the additional spacing I put in between everything to form columns under all the headings, and the "None" under #104 should be up on the same line. . . and there's no such color as "bnox car red" (LOL). Any questions, just let me know. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Alright Chuck, Here it goes with Pacific HO -- Silver Streak. > > Note (1), all box cars are painted bnox car red unless otherwise > stated. > Note (2), all cabooses are painted caboose red unless otherwise > stated. > Note (3), all caboose kit numbers in the #100 series range starting > after #121 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (4), all box car kit numbers in the #200 number series range > starting after #220 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (5), all auto car kit numbers in the #300 number series range > starting after #303 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (6), all reefer kit numbers in the #400 number series starting > after #419 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (7), all hart gondola kit numbers in the #500 number series > range starting after #506 are Walthers Silver Streak. > > > PACIFIC HO > > Standard Caboose > > Kit Number Roadname/Remarks Road (reporting) Number Color > > #103 Unlettered 28' None > > #104 Unlettered 30' > None > #110 SP Box Car Red > > #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer Yellow > > #112 B&O 28' > > #113 GN 24' > > #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver > > #116 SP (Bay Window) Box Car Red > > #117 Unlettered (Bay Window) Box Car Red > > #118 Pacific Electric (no Cupola) > > #119 Unlettered 34' (no Cupola) > > #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 > > #121 Unlettered None > > #122 MILW (Bay Window) 0255 Silver > > #123 ATSF (Truss Rod) Box Car Red > > #124 CB&Q Box Car Red > > #125 SOU (Truss Rod) X- 3349 > > #126 C&NW > > #127 C&O A- 616 > > > Drovers and Combination Caboose > > #107 MP 32' Box Car Red > > #108 Unlettered 34' Reefer Yellow > > #131 CB&Q 3928 Box Car Red > > #132 Sierra RR Box Car Red > > #133 Pacific Lumber 78 > > > 4-Wheel Bobber Caboose > > #175 Unlettered > > #176 EJ&E 30 Reefer Yellow > > #177 DL&W 508 Box Car Red > > #178 MA & PA 2005 > > #179 WM 2216 > > #180 PRR 485497 Box Car Red > > #181 NYC 17005 Box Car Red > > #182 L&NE 511 > > #183 B&O C- 1775 > > #184 MILW 0478 Box Car Red > > #185 RDG 90258 > > #186 GN X- 94 > > #187 SOU X 421 > > > Please feel free to make any additions or corrections, as needed. > We'll see what this looks like on your end first before I send more. > Best, Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > With regards to the other list, it makes no difference to me. It > sounds > > like you have many lists, so just send me one and when it is done, > send > > another. I will post them at the site and others can help to fill > in any > > blanks. The MDC one worked well. I sure we will learn a lot when > this is > > father along. > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:10 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > Chuck, Now that we have Garry's metal Athearn listing. I'm no > longer > > needing to send you that, which saves us both a lot of work (thanks > > again, Garry). I'll check this Athearn list out in the Files > Section > > to look it over for possible omissions and/or corrections. I know > > even the extensive list I have is not complete, as I've seen > > suspected (but previously unconfirmed) new numbers on eBay > offerings > > of these cars which were never verified before. I've tried > following > > the Athearn metal eBay listings for possible new numbers, but found > > it impossible to keep tabs on every listing. > > > > Now, as for these others, the info from any of them is no problem. > I > > can supply you with most of it, having complete or near-complete > > collections of most (yeah, I'm a pack rat, big time, LOL). Let me > > know where you want to start. If I don't have it written down, this > > will give me a good excuse to go digging. As for the manufacturers > > of which my collection is not quite complete, maybe the rest of the > > interested members will be able to contribute numbers. BCNU, Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > For the others, I certainly can do something in format, the > Athearn > > style of > > > Garry's or the MDC style. But I have almost no info on the makers > > listed, > > > so would need much input. > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:51 AM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, > the > > > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back > in > > > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we > should > > > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738 (?) > > or > > > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > > > different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more > than > > > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > > > > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > > > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' > > > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, > > Laconia, > > > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or > any > > > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > > > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when > they > > > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained > > all > > > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > > > > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets > > are > > > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers > > which > > > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would > > still > > > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > > > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > > > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, > L- > > W > > > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal > or > > > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would > > > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting > number > > > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing > > them > > > down so would have to go all back through the collection to find > > that > > > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > > > > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com, > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel > sheet > > > together > > > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > > > reporting > > > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community. <http://community. > > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A- > 178) > > > car > > > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > > > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > > > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > > > reporting > > > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known > > THIRTEEN > > > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out > > the > > > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least > answer > > > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New > Year > > > > too. Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com, > > > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > > > confirm that > > > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² > > version > > > > (with > > > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the > > > metal > > > > parts are > > > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of > > the > > > > twelve > > > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across > ³all > > > > metal² > > > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is > > that > > > > it¹s out > > > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me > for > > > > sure. > > > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single- > > door > > > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been > confirmed > > > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a > couple > > of > > > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production > > > runs. > > > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; > #A- > > > 301 > > > > PRR > > > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting > > numbers), > > > A- > > > > 303 > > > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > > > > numbers). > > > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's > > and > > > 4 > > > > of > > > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal > > Athearns, > > > > but > > > > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > > > > early > > > > > > 50s. > > > > > >> > Jay > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start > a > > > > new > > > > > > topic > > > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------- -- > - > > > > > > -------- > > > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your > career > > > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > > > > >> > . > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------- -- > - > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > Yahoo! > > > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4788	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Ray, OK, give me a few days and I’ll have something.  And like last time, it will take a few passes as sometimes my fingers go flying around and hitting those pesky wrong keys. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:46 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Alright, looks okay from here. Hope you can figure it out okay. I see in the email that all the lines condensed to the left instead of having the additional spacing I put in between everything to form columns under all the headings, and the "None" under #104 should be up on the same line. . . and there's no such color as "bnox car red" (LOL). Any questions, just let me know. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > Alright Chuck, Here it goes with Pacific HO -- Silver Streak. > > Note (1), all box cars are painted bnox car red unless otherwise > stated. > Note (2), all cabooses are painted caboose red unless otherwise > stated. > Note (3), all caboose kit numbers in the #100 series range starting > after #121 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (4), all box car kit numbers in the #200 number series range > starting after #220 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (5), all auto car kit numbers in the #300 number series range > starting after #303 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (6), all reefer kit numbers in the #400 number series starting > after #419 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (7), all hart gondola kit numbers in the #500 number series > range starting after #506 are Walthers Silver Streak. > > > PACIFIC HO > > Standard Caboose > > Kit Number Roadname/Remarks Road (reporting) Number Color > > #103 Unlettered 28' None > > #104 Unlettered 30' > None > #110 SP Box Car Red > > #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer Yellow > > #112 B&O 28' > > #113 GN 24' > > #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver > > #116 SP (Bay Window) Box Car Red > > #117 Unlettered (Bay Window) Box Car Red > > #118 Pacific Electric (no Cupola) > > #119 Unlettered 34' (no Cupola) > > #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 > > #121 Unlettered None > > #122 MILW (Bay Window) 0255 Silver > > #123 ATSF (Truss Rod) Box Car Red > > #124 CB&Q Box Car Red > > #125 SOU (Truss Rod) X- 3349 > > #126 C&NW > > #127 C&O A- 616 > > > Drovers and Combination Caboose > > #107 MP 32' Box Car Red > > #108 Unlettered 34' Reefer Yellow > > #131 CB&Q 3928 Box Car Red > > #132 Sierra RR Box Car Red > > #133 Pacific Lumber 78 > > > 4-Wheel Bobber Caboose > > #175 Unlettered > > #176 EJ&E 30 Reefer Yellow > > #177 DL&W 508 Box Car Red > > #178 MA & PA 2005 > > #179 WM 2216 > > #180 PRR 485497 Box Car Red > > #181 NYC 17005 Box Car Red > > #182 L&NE 511 > > #183 B&O C- 1775 > > #184 MILW 0478 Box Car Red > > #185 RDG 90258 > > #186 GN X- 94 > > #187 SOU X 421 > > > Please feel free to make any additions or corrections, as needed. > We'll see what this looks like on your end first before I send more. > Best, Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > With regards to the other list, it makes no difference to me. It > sounds > > like you have many lists, so just send me one and when it is done, > send > > another. I will post them at the site and others can help to fill > in any > > blanks. The MDC one worked well. I sure we will learn a lot when > this is > > father along. > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:10 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > Chuck, Now that we have Garry's metal Athearn listing. I'm no > longer > > needing to send you that, which saves us both a lot of work (thanks > > again, Garry). I'll check this Athearn list out in the Files > Section > > to look it over for possible omissions and/or corrections. I know > > even the extensive list I have is not complete, as I've seen > > suspected (but previously unconfirmed) new numbers on eBay > offerings > > of these cars which were never verified before. I've tried > following > > the Athearn metal eBay listings for possible new numbers, but found > > it impossible to keep tabs on every listing. > > > > Now, as for these others, the info from any of them is no problem. > I > > can supply you with most of it, having complete or near-complete > > collections of most (yeah, I'm a pack rat, big time, LOL). Let me > > know where you want to start. If I don't have it written down, this > > will give me a good excuse to go digging. As for the manufacturers > > of which my collection is not quite complete, maybe the rest of the > > interested members will be able to contribute numbers. BCNU, Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > For the others, I certainly can do something in format, the > Athearn > > style of > > > Garry's or the MDC style. But I have almost no info on the makers > > listed, > > > so would need much input. > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. < href="http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104">http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:51 AM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, > the > > > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back > in > > > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we > should > > > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738 (?) > > or > > > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > > > different road names of all the different models -- a w:st="on">LOT more > than > > > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > > > > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > > > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' > > > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, > > Laconia , > > > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or > any > > > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > > > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when > they > > > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained > > all > > > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > > > > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets > > are > > > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers > > which > > > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would > > still > > > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > > > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > > > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, > L- > > W > > > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of w:st="on"> Canada , Ideal > or > > > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would > > > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting > number > > > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing > > them > > > down so would have to go all back through the collection to find > > that > > > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > > > > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com, > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel > sheet > > > together > > > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > > > reporting > > > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community. < href="http://community.">http://community. > > <http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104> > > > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A- > 178) > > > car > > > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > > > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > > > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > > > reporting > > > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known > > THIRTEEN > > > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out > > the > > > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least > answer > > > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New > Year > > > > too. Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > > ps.com, > > > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > > > confirm that > > > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² > > version > > > > (with > > > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the > > > metal > > > > parts are > > > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of > > the > > > > twelve > > > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across > ³all > > > > metal² > > > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is > > that > > > > it¹s out > > > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me > for > > > > sure. > > > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single- > > door > > > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been > confirmed > > > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a > couple > > of > > > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production > > > runs. > > > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; > #A- > > > 301 > > > > PRR > > > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting > > numbers), > > > A- > > > > 303 > > > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > > > > numbers). > > > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's > > and > > > 4 > > > > of > > > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal > > Athearns, > > > > but > > > > > > these were "distinctive" . Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups. com> > > > ps.com > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups. com> , "Don > > > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups. com> > > > ps.com > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups. com> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > > > > early > > > > > > 50s. > > > > > >> > Jay > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start > a > > > > new > > > > > > topic > > > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------- -- > - > > > > > > -------- > > > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your > career > > > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder. net. > > > > > >> > . > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------- -- > - > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > Yahoo! > > > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4789	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even though it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued by that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting numbers from the larger photos, if you can make them out. I should have the rest of this to you shortly, but not tonight. The format you used with the MDC would be just great. When we get to the Globe, you can use the info Garry was kind enough to send in and I'll fill you in on the rest -- or I'll just combine both lists here and send it all at once. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I suppose that I could just work form a Walthers Catalog from 1989 or so. I > think that is my oldest, which would start things for the file. In the > format of the MDC cars, unless someone has a suggestion on the format. I > have no info on Globe, so can't do anything with out your help on that. > > > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk@... > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:42 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Chuck, Okay, Let's start with Pacific HO/ Silver Streak. I was about to > write you about making things easier this time, that's why I chose this, but > as you can see, its taken me a couple of days to get it all straightened > out. There will be some numbers missing as I never bought any of the Hart > Gondolas, since they didn't fit in with my layout. I never bought all the > cabooses either, since again, I had no use for most of the other caboose > roads on my Northeast scene. I'll also be including the Walthers Silver > Streak releases from after they took over. Unlike Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff, > Walthers at least continued in the same series numbers for the particular > car type, after the end of Pacific HO's series' numbers for a group. Will > include Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff at the very end, showing kit numbers and > roadnames only if you think its helpful. Many of their kit numbers for > their line of Silver Streak road names were already previously used for > OTHER road names put out by Pacific HO and Walthers Silver Streak, making > their kit numbers conflicting and confusing. > > After this, I thought we could also do an update spread sheet on the Globe > numbers, if you'd like to, many of which Garry provided last March. In > checking back just now, I can't find where my additional numbers were ever > added to the listing, as I can't find anything to that effect in the > archives -- could just be me though, in not being able to find it, but > otherwise we could use something more complete. Later, Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4790	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

Roger A and Don: Varney's 2-8-0 Consolidation was in their 1941 Catalog. I have a copy of that. Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4791	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

I had both the second and third variations, those were really the ones I was asking about.  The third was basically garbage, there was no frame, the trucks bolsters snapped into the ladders, puit any kind of load on it and the ladders sheared off!   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:57 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? Penn Line used two different F-7 shells, first the Globe/Athearn on the Fleishman style chassis.  The slanted motor on the chassis over the front truck and the spring drive to just the rear truck.  Then one with shorter ladders with the motor over/on the rear truck and the universal thought the fuel tank to the front truck.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:23 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@4fast. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > In the later production era, plastics and trainset dominated--it often > seemed that the manufacturers were passing the dies around--actually > probably were producing for each other--I know of a couple of brands that > had recognizable Varney F-3 shells--gj Was the Gilbert F-3 a Varney? I've often wondered if the Penn Line F-7 was from Athearn (although the windshields were opened up a little more, more "square cornered"). The Revell one is slightly different. I had one I thought was a Globe until I got another that was definitely Revell (still on the original unsalvagable Revell drive). Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4792	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even though > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued by > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting numbers > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. I should have the > rest of this to you shortly, but not tonight. The format you used > with the MDC would be just great. When we get to the Globe, you can > use the info Garry was kind enough to send in and I'll fill you in on > the rest -- or I'll just combine both lists here and send it all at > once. Ray If it's any help, I have Walthers catalogs back to about 1969 which would be the Pacific HO numbers. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4793	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

Were the 60' "day coach" and combine in the '41 book? Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: <DLeistikow@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > Roger A and Don: Varney's 2-8-0 Consolidation was in their 1941 > Catalog. I have a copy of that. > > Don L. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4794	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Silver Streak cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Pacific HO and Silver Streak HO car kits You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Silver%20Streak%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4795	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Well I have put the file up for the Pacific HO and Silver Streak cars.  Let me know how it looks.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:04 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even though > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued by > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting numbers > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. I should have the > rest of this to you shortly, but not tonight. The format you used > with the MDC would be just great. When we get to the Globe, you can > use the info Garry was kind enough to send in and I'll fill you in on > the rest -- or I'll just combine both lists here and send it all at > once. Ray If it's any help, I have Walthers catalogs back to about 1969 which would be the Pacific HO numbers. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4796	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn

I am pretty sure, but I can’t prove it that the Athearn one was in fact from Athearn.  I thought the third one with the short ladders was their own.  Both of them zoomed around the layout quite fast.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:02 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?   I had both the second and third variations, those were really the ones I was asking about.  The third was basically garbage, there was no frame, the trucks bolsters snapped into the ladders, puit any kind of load on it and the ladders sheared off!   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:57 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?   Penn Line used two different F-7 shells, first the Globe/Athearn on the Fleishman style chassis.  The slanted motor on the chassis over the front truck and the spring drive to just the rear truck.  Then one with shorter ladders with the motor over/on the rear truck and the universal thought the fuel tank to the front truck.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:23 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@4fast. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > In the later production era, plastics and trainset dominated--it often > seemed that the manufacturers were passing the dies around--actually > probably were producing for each other--I know of a couple of brands that > had recognizable Varney F-3 shells--gj Was the Gilbert F-3 a Varney? I've often wondered if the Penn Line F-7 was from Athearn (although the windshields were opened up a little more, more "square cornered"). The Revell one is slightly different. I had one I thought was a Globe until I got another that was definitely Revell (still on the original unsalvagable Revell drive). Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4797	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

so what color do I paint my bnox cars? ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Alright, looks okay from here. Hope you can figure it out okay. I see in the email that all the lines condensed to the left instead of having the additional spacing I put in between everything to form columns under all the headings, and the "None" under #104 should be up on the same line. . . and there's no such color as "bnox car red" (LOL). Any questions, just let me know. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Alright Chuck, Here it goes with Pacific HO -- Silver Streak. > > Note (1), all box cars are painted bnox car red unless otherwise > stated. > Note (2), all cabooses are painted caboose red unless otherwise > stated. > Note (3), all caboose kit numbers in the #100 series range starting > after #121 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (4), all box car kit numbers in the #200 number series range > starting after #220 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (5), all auto car kit numbers in the #300 number series range > starting after #303 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (6), all reefer kit numbers in the #400 number series starting > after #419 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > Note (7), all hart gondola kit numbers in the #500 number series > range starting after #506 are Walthers Silver Streak. > > > PACIFIC HO > > Standard Caboose > > Kit Number Roadname/Remarks Road (reporting) Number Color > > #103 Unlettered 28' None > > #104 Unlettered 30' > None > #110 SP Box Car Red > > #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer Yellow > > #112 B&O 28' > > #113 GN 24' > > #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver > > #116 SP (Bay Window) Box Car Red > > #117 Unlettered (Bay Window) Box Car Red > > #118 Pacific Electric (no Cupola) > > #119 Unlettered 34' (no Cupola) > > #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 > > #121 Unlettered None > > #122 MILW (Bay Window) 0255 Silver > > #123 ATSF (Truss Rod) Box Car Red > > #124 CB&Q Box Car Red > > #125 SOU (Truss Rod) X- 3349 > > #126 C&NW > > #127 C&O A- 616 > > > Drovers and Combination Caboose > > #107 MP 32' Box Car Red > > #108 Unlettered 34' Reefer Yellow > > #131 CB&Q 3928 Box Car Red > > #132 Sierra RR Box Car Red > > #133 Pacific Lumber 78 > > > 4-Wheel Bobber Caboose > > #175 Unlettered > > #176 EJ&E 30 Reefer Yellow > > #177 DL&W 508 Box Car Red > > #178 MA & PA 2005 > > #179 WM 2216 > > #180 PRR 485497 Box Car Red > > #181 NYC 17005 Box Car Red > > #182 L&NE 511 > > #183 B&O C- 1775 > > #184 MILW 0478 Box Car Red > > #185 RDG 90258 > > #186 GN X- 94 > > #187 SOU X 421 > > > Please feel free to make any additions or corrections, as needed. > We'll see what this looks like on your end first before I send more. > Best, Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > With regards to the other list, it makes no difference to me. It > sounds > > like you have many lists, so just send me one and when it is done, > send > > another. I will post them at the site and others can help to fill > in any > > blanks. The MDC one worked well. I sure we will learn a lot when > this is > > father along. > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:10 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > Chuck, Now that we have Garry's metal Athearn listing. I'm no > longer > > needing to send you that, which saves us both a lot of work (thanks > > again, Garry). I'll check this Athearn list out in the Files > Section > > to look it over for possible omissions and/or corrections. I know > > even the extensive list I have is not complete, as I've seen > > suspected (but previously unconfirmed) new numbers on eBay > offerings > > of these cars which were never verified before. I've tried > following > > the Athearn metal eBay listings for possible new numbers, but found > > it impossible to keep tabs on every listing. > > > > Now, as for these others, the info from any of them is no problem. > I > > can supply you with most of it, having complete or near-complete > > collections of most (yeah, I'm a pack rat, big time, LOL). Let me > > know where you want to start. If I don't have it written down, this > > will give me a good excuse to go digging. As for the manufacturers > > of which my collection is not quite complete, maybe the rest of the > > interested members will be able to contribute numbers. BCNU, Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > For the others, I certainly can do something in format, the > Athearn > > style of > > > Garry's or the MDC style. But I have almost no info on the makers > > listed, > > > so would need much input. > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:51 AM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, > the > > > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back > in > > > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we > should > > > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738 (?) > > or > > > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > > > different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more > than > > > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > > > > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > > > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered manufacturers' > > > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, > > Laconia, > > > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or > any > > > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > > > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when > they > > > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still retained > > all > > > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > > > > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread sheets > > are > > > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers > > which > > > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would > > still > > > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > > > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > > > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C Models, > L- > > W > > > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, Ideal > or > > > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists would > > > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting > number > > > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered writing > > them > > > down so would have to go all back through the collection to find > > that > > > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > > > > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com, > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel > sheet > > > together > > > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > > > reporting > > > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community. <http://community. > > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A- > 178) > > > car > > > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor only). > > > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, and > > > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > > > reporting > > > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known > > THIRTEEN > > > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check out > > the > > > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least > answer > > > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New > Year > > > > too. Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com, > > > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > > > confirm that > > > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² > > version > > > > (with > > > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which the > > > metal > > > > parts are > > > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? Of > > the > > > > twelve > > > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across > ³all > > > > metal² > > > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is > > that > > > > it¹s out > > > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me > for > > > > sure. > > > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' single- > > door > > > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been > confirmed > > > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a > couple > > of > > > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn production > > > runs. > > > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; > #A- > > > 301 > > > > PRR > > > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting > > numbers), > > > A- > > > > 303 > > > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 reporting > > > > numbers). > > > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the SAL's > > and > > > 4 > > > > of > > > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal > > Athearns, > > > > but > > > > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in the > > > > early > > > > > > 50s. > > > > > >> > Jay > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start > a > > > > new > > > > > > topic > > > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------- -- > - > > > > > > -------- > > > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your > career > > > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > > > > >> > . > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------- -- > - > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > Yahoo! > > > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4798	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

erieberk wrote: > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even though > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued by > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting numbers > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. I have a 1974 Walther's catalog. I can look up some data in that for you if necessary. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Santa's Pickup Lines #10 - Hey Babe, when was the last time you did it in a sleigh?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4799	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

H-O Seeker has a 1939 catalog which shows 64' pullman cars, so I would go with Varney being conmsiderably older that John-English. Roger Aultman http://www.hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varney1939catalogpg15.jpg

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4800	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Many thanks Don, much appreciated. I have many (although not every one) of the Walthers catalogs going back to October 1939 though, so have all the Pacific HO catalog numbers that I know of. Its the car reporting (side) numbers that has taken some extra time with digging into the collection to get some I was missing on paper. I'll be getting that info to Chuck tomorrow. Still don't have all the reporting numbers as I'm missing some cars. Hoping other members can chime in here, as well as with other lists we'll be doing, with that sort of info. Thanks again, Ray P.S,: Their 1949 Decal catalog is a hoot -- they have every little obscure railroad and private car company you could think of and then some; much more than Champ ever had. Great for modeling that period, just too bad they no longer offer them. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:58 PM > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even though > > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued by > > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting numbers > > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. I should have the > > rest of this to you shortly, but not tonight. The format you used > > with the MDC would be just great. When we get to the Globe, you can > > use the info Garry was kind enough to send in and I'll fill you in on > > the rest -- or I'll just combine both lists here and send it all at > > once. Ray > > If it's any help, I have Walthers catalogs back to about 1969 which would be > the Pacific HO numbers. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4801	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

Attachments : Don and Roger: Yes, 60 foot passenger cars were also in the VARNEY 1941 catalog, in both green and red, as I recall. I do not have this issue in front of me, just now but clearly recall them. These cars had printed sides on clear celluloid(?). Several of them bore names as pseudo pullmans, to which the letterboard attested. I also have a couple of 80' printed paper sided Pullmans kit #300 (I think), Nice job of raised rivet detail on these. Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4802	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

Attachments : Roger A and list: The page depicting the correct 64' dimension, appears to be identical to the page in my 1941 catalog. Looks like they're all Pullmans. Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4803	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Rick, Okay, I have the Walthers 1974 catalog -- and the 1973, 1971, 1969 and so on down to October 1939 (1940 - Catalog #4), as I mentioned to Don. That one and the 1941 (April '41, Catalog #5) were interesting as they showed the Walthers MILW Baltic 4-6-4 Hudson they produced back then. I believe Don's a Milwaukee Road fan and probably wouldn't mind getting his hands on one of those if he could find one. The 1946 catalog shows a lot more engines Walthers produced, but the 1949 and 1950 catalogs show much less of them, but have lots of Walthers rolling stock (both freight and passenger). Also have their catalogs going the other way -- 1975, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1984, etc., all of which I bought new. They're a real good source now for looking up some of the old stuff. One thing that many modelers may not realize, unlike the years after 1970, Walthers did not carry anything in their much earlier catalogs except their own equipment. Even as late as their 1961 catalog, the only outside manufacturer they offered that year was Binkley. Thanks a bunch for your offer anyway, it is appreciated. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: > > erieberk wrote: > > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even though > > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued by > > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting numbers > > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. > > I have a 1974 Walther's catalog. I can look up some data in that for > you if necessary. > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > > Santa's Pickup Lines #10 - Hey Babe, when was the last time you > did it in a sleigh? >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4804	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Well, I suppose you could paint them bnox car green!!! --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > so what color do I paint my bnox cars? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:45 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > Alright, looks okay from here. Hope you can figure it out okay. I > see in the email that all the lines condensed to the left instead of > having the additional spacing I put in between everything to form > columns under all the headings, and the "None" under #104 should be > up on the same line. . . and there's no such color as "bnox car red" > (LOL). Any questions, just let me know. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Alright Chuck, Here it goes with Pacific HO -- Silver Streak. > > > > Note (1), all box cars are painted bnox car red unless otherwise > > stated. > > Note (2), all cabooses are painted caboose red unless otherwise > > stated. > > Note (3), all caboose kit numbers in the #100 series range starting > > after #121 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > > Note (4), all box car kit numbers in the #200 number series range > > starting after #220 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > > Note (5), all auto car kit numbers in the #300 number series range > > starting after #303 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > > Note (6), all reefer kit numbers in the #400 number series starting > > after #419 are Walthers' Silver Streak. > > Note (7), all hart gondola kit numbers in the #500 number series > > range starting after #506 are Walthers Silver Streak. > > > > > > PACIFIC HO > > > > Standard Caboose > > > > Kit Number Roadname/Remarks Road (reporting) Number Color > > > > #103 Unlettered 28' > None > > > > #104 Unlettered 30' > > None > > #110 SP Box Car > Red > > > > #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer > Yellow > > > > #112 B&O > 28' > > > > #113 GN > 24' > > > > #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 > Silver > > > > #116 SP (Bay Window) Box Car > Red > > > > #117 Unlettered (Bay Window) Box Car Red > > > > #118 Pacific Electric (no > Cupola) > > > > #119 Unlettered 34' (no > Cupola) > > > > #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) > 04956 > > > > #121 Unlettered > None > > > > #122 MILW (Bay Window) 0255 > Silver > > > > #123 ATSF (Truss Rod) Box Car > Red > > > > #124 CB&Q Box Car > Red > > > > #125 SOU (Truss Rod) X- > 3349 > > > > #126 > C&NW > > > > #127 C&O A- > 616 > > > > > > Drovers and Combination > Caboose > > > > #107 MP 32' Box Car > Red > > > > #108 Unlettered 34' Reefer > Yellow > > > > #131 CB&Q 3928 Box Car > Red > > > > #132 Sierra RR Box Car > Red > > > > #133 Pacific Lumber > 78 > > > > > > 4-Wheel Bobber > Caboose > > > > #175 > Unlettered > > > > #176 EJ&E 30 Reefer > Yellow > > > > #177 DL&W 508 Box Car > Red > > > > #178 MA & PA > 2005 > > > > #179 WM > 2216 > > > > #180 PRR 485497 Box Car > Red > > > > #181 NYC 17005 Box Car > Red > > > > #182 L&NE > 511 > > > > #183 B&O C- > 1775 > > > > #184 MILW 0478 Box Car > Red > > > > #185 RDG > 90258 > > > > #186 GN X- > 94 > > > > #187 SOU X > 421 > > > > > > Please feel free to make any additions or corrections, as needed. > > We'll see what this looks like on your end first before I send > more. > > Best, Ray Wetzel > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > With regards to the other list, it makes no difference to me. It > > sounds > > > like you have many lists, so just send me one and when it is > done, > > send > > > another. I will post them at the site and others can help to > fill > > in any > > > blanks. The MDC one worked well. I sure we will learn a lot > when > > this is > > > father along. > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:10 AM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Now that we have Garry's metal Athearn listing. I'm no > > longer > > > needing to send you that, which saves us both a lot of work > (thanks > > > again, Garry). I'll check this Athearn list out in the Files > > Section > > > to look it over for possible omissions and/or corrections. I know > > > even the extensive list I have is not complete, as I've seen > > > suspected (but previously unconfirmed) new numbers on eBay > > offerings > > > of these cars which were never verified before. I've tried > > following > > > the Athearn metal eBay listings for possible new numbers, but > found > > > it impossible to keep tabs on every listing. > > > > > > Now, as for these others, the info from any of them is no > problem. > > I > > > can supply you with most of it, having complete or near-complete > > > collections of most (yeah, I'm a pack rat, big time, LOL). Let me > > > know where you want to start. If I don't have it written down, > this > > > will give me a good excuse to go digging. As for the > manufacturers > > > of which my collection is not quite complete, maybe the rest of > the > > > interested members will be able to contribute numbers. BCNU, Ray > W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com, > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > > > For the others, I certainly can do something in format, the > > Athearn > > > style of > > > > Garry's or the MDC style. But I have almost no info on the > makers > > > listed, > > > > so would need much input. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:51 AM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Sure, if you want to do an Excel sheet on Athearn metal, > > the > > > > same as you did for the info I supplied for MDC/Roundhouse back > > in > > > > October, I'd be glad to. Just let me know where you think we > > should > > > > start. BTW, when I last counted them all, there were about 738 > (?) > > > or > > > > so different reporting numbers (if memory serves) for all the > > > > different road names of all the different models -- a LOT more > > than > > > > the MDC inventory. Are you still up to it (LOL)? > > > > > > > > I'd be glad to supply complete (or near complete) rosters of > > > > reporting numbers for any of the multiple-numbered > manufacturers' > > > > lists of road names, including Globe, Silver Streak, Varney, > > > Laconia, > > > > Marker-Lights, Con Cor Models, Model Master, Park Varieties or > > any > > > > others. Luckily, most of the other manufacturers used only one > > > > reporting number even though in some case like Main Line, when > > they > > > > changed Kit Numbers for all their road names, they still > retained > > > all > > > > the same reporting numbers for these same road names. > > > > > > > > After multiple-numbered road name kit manufacturers spread > sheets > > > are > > > > completed, you might want to consider doing those manufacturers > > > which > > > > did only one reporting number for their road names, as it would > > > still > > > > help in identifying the manufacturer -- but that would have be > > > > somewhere down the line in the future. With these, we could do > > > > Ulrich, Rail Master, International (I.M.P.), Binkley, A-C > Models, > > L- > > > W > > > > Models, Comet, Olympic Cascadian, George Taylor of Canada, > Ideal > > or > > > > any others you can think of if you're up to it. These lists > would > > > > take me more time though; since they only had one reporting > > number > > > > and not needing any others to look for, I never bothered > writing > > > them > > > > down so would have to go all back through the collection to > find > > > that > > > > data. Let me know on those (have plenty to keep you busy - LOL). > > > > > > > > Happy New Year, Ray Wetzel > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com, > > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If you all can provide the car numbers, I can put an Excel > > sheet > > > > together > > > > > for these cars. I already have the sheet done, just need the > > > > reporting > > > > > numbers. If you are interested in such a list? > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > > http://community. <http://community. > > > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com] > > > > On Behalf > > > > > Of erieberk > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:34 PM > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you can rest assure the Athearn metal NYC Pacemaker (A- > > 178) > > > > car > > > > > was produced in an all-metal version (w/ wood sub-floor > only). > > > > > Reaching for the first Pacemaker kit I had easy access to, > and > > > > > without needing to go further into my collection, I found a > > > > reporting > > > > > number 74283 as being all metal. I have eight of the known > > > THIRTEEN > > > > > reporting numbers for this roadname, and will try to check > out > > > the > > > > > rest upon gaining access to them, but this should at least > > answer > > > > > your question. Here's hoping you have a Happy & Healthy New > > Year > > > > > too. Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > ps.com, > > > > > Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On the subject of Athearn metal freight cars, can anyone > > > > > confirm that > > > > > > the Pacemaker boxcar (A-178) was made in the ³all metal² > > > version > > > > > (with > > > > > > wooden floor) as well as in the earlier version in which > the > > > > metal > > > > > parts are > > > > > > put together around a wood floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof? > Of > > > the > > > > > twelve > > > > > > cars in this series (A-175 through A-186) I¹ve come across > > ³all > > > > > metal² > > > > > > versions of every car except for the Pacemaker. My guess is > > > that > > > > > it¹s out > > > > > > there, and I¹m hoping that someone in the group can tell me > > for > > > > > sure. > > > > > > Best wishes and happy New Year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/08 12:01 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don, No need to fear that your Athearn metal N&W 40' > single- > > > door > > > > > > > round roof boxcar was kitbashed. As has already been > > confirmed > > > > > > > earlier this morning by several other members having a > > couple > > > of > > > > > > > different road names, these were regular Athearn > production > > > > runs. > > > > > > > Athearn produced four different roadnames for these cars; > > #A- > > > > 301 > > > > > PRR > > > > > > > (in 5 reporting numbers), A-302 DT&I (in 8 reporting > > > numbers), > > > > A- > > > > > 303 > > > > > > > SAL (in 4 reporting numbers) and A-304 N&W (in 5 > reporting > > > > > numbers). > > > > > > > I have all 5 of the PRR's, 5 of the DT&I's, 3 of the > SAL's > > > and > > > > 4 > > > > > of > > > > > > > the N&W's. Nice cars, as were any of the other metal > > > Athearns, > > > > > but > > > > > > > these were "distinctive". Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > ps.com > > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > > > > > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > That's good to know. I was afraid someone may > > > > > have "kitbashed" it > > > > > > > by combining parts from an auto car kit with a box car. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >> > From: jay matz > > > > > > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > ps.com > > > > > <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:33 AM > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Don > > > > > > >> > I have the same N&W round roof car, My Dad got it in > the > > > > > early > > > > > > > 50s. > > > > > > >> > Jay > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | > Start > > a > > > > > new > > > > > > > topic > > > > > > >> > MARKETPLACE > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > ----------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > > > > -------- > > > > > > >> > Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your > > career > > > > > > > with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net. > > > > > > >> > . > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > ----------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > > Yahoo! > > > > > > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4805	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

Don L Do you think the 64' pullmans were the clear side material or the pressed paper? I recall seeing kits for smooth side passengers that were printed on transparent material, a real neat way of doing thngs I always thought. Roger Aultman Roger A and list: The page depicting the correct 64' dimension, appears to be identical to the page in my 1941 catalog. Looks like they're all Pullmans. Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4806	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Oops, in browsing back through the Walthers 1961 catalog, I discovered an oversight on my part -- sorry, didn't mean to mislead you. More towards the back of the catalog, after the Binkley - Laconia products on pages 21 & 22, the Silver Streak offerings are displayed as well as the Athearn metal car kits, albeit without any of the round roof cars. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Rick, > > One thing that many modelers may not realize, unlike the years after > 1970, Walthers did not carry anything in their much earlier catalogs > except their own equipment. Even as late as their 1961 catalog, the > only outside manufacturer they offered that year was Binkley. Thanks > a bunch for your offer anyway, it is appreciated. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote: > > > > erieberk wrote: > > > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even > though > > > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued > by > > > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting > numbers > > > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. > > > > I have a 1974 Walther's catalog. I can look up some data in > that for > > you if necessary. > > > > -- > > > > Rick Jones > > > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > > > > Santa's Pickup Lines #10 - Hey Babe, when was the last time you > > did it in a sleigh? > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4807	From: erieberk	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Garry, After reading your post, it just struck me that Silver Streak produced tank cars (wood/aluminum foil wrapper), even though I have a few of them (built up); I had forgotten about them. Checking back through all the Walthers catalogs I have, I cannot come up with any of them. I'm not sure when they were discontinued, but I know Pacific HO released them quite early, like in the early 1950's. If they were discontinued within a short time span of that, this would explain why they're not found in the Walthers catalogs, since Walthers did not carry other manufacturers back then. I did find all the Pacific HO/ Silver Streak tank cars both in the 1950 and the 1953 Model Railroad Equipment Corporation (Carmen Webster) catalogs, but the listings do not have them inventoried with the Pacific HO kit number, only their own. If you have the catalog numbers for these Silver Streak tank cars, could you please forward them to Chuck. They would include: Conoco, General American Tank - GATX, Shell Chemical - SCMX (# 519) and Texaco. I don't know of any others unless you do. Many thanks, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > > Not real easy to do. The spread sheet contains: Athearn, Globe, > International, Mantua, MDC, Pacific Pike, Silver Streak (metal Tanks), > Thomas (tank cars), Ulrich, & Varney. The list is my observations and > inventor. > > Garry Spear > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4808	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: <DLeistikow@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] RE: Unusual Athearn? > Don and Roger: Yes, 60 foot passenger cars were also in the VARNEY > 1941 catalog, in both green and red, as I recall. > > I do not have this issue in front of me, just now but clearly recall > them. These cars had printed sides on clear celluloid(?). Several of > them bore names as pseudo pullmans, to which the letterboard attested. > > I also have a couple of 80' printed paper sided Pullmans kit #300 (I > think), Nice job of raised rivet detail on these. > > Don L. I have one of the celluloid 60' pullmans in red, also one of the #300 pullmans, and sides to do a couple more. I was specifically asking about the card side 60'ers, same construction as the pullman. Interesting note, I cheat on the sides when building them. In the original kits you get FOUR sides, you were supposed to laminate two together with cellophane in between for the window "glass". It was the double side that gave it the strength. I laminate one side to clear styrene instead, giving greater strength, and leaving me with an extra set of sides, which, when combined with Northeastern roof and floor stock, and appropriate ends and details, gives me a second car. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4809	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Walthers (was Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Walthers started Terminal Hobby in 1959 to carry brands other than their own. The first ones over the first year or two were Binkley/Laconia, Mainline, Silver Streak, Ulrich, and, believe it or not AKANE brass. For a time in the 1970's, they even printed a THS Catalog in addition to the regular Walthers' book, listing the brands THS sold that Walthers didn't distribute themselves. ( Labelle, Kar-Line, Cary etc. are a few that come to mind, as well as other brass importers.) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:29 PM Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Oops, in browsing back through the Walthers 1961 catalog, I > discovered an oversight on my part -- sorry, didn't mean to mislead > you. More towards the back of the catalog, after the Binkley - > Laconia products on pages 21 & 22, the Silver Streak offerings are > displayed as well as the Athearn metal car kits, albeit without any > of the round roof cars. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: >> >> Rick, >> >> One thing that many modelers may not realize, unlike the years > after >> 1970, Walthers did not carry anything in their much earlier > catalogs >> except their own equipment. Even as late as their 1961 catalog, > the >> only outside manufacturer they offered that year was Binkley. > Thanks >> a bunch for your offer anyway, it is appreciated. Ray >> >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote: >> > >> > erieberk wrote: >> > > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even >> though >> > > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long > discontinued >> by >> > > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting >> numbers >> > > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. >> > >> > I have a 1974 Walther's catalog. I can look up some data in >> that for >> > you if necessary. >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Rick Jones >> > >> > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad >> > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ >> > >> > Santa's Pickup Lines #10 - Hey Babe, when was the last time you >> > did it in a sleigh? >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4810	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VARNEY 64' PULLMANS > Don L Do you think the 64' pullmans were the clear side material or the > pressed paper? I recall seeing kits for smooth side passengers that were > printed on transparent material, a real neat way of doing thngs I always > thought. Roger Aultman > > > Roger A and list: The page depicting the correct 64' dimension, > appears to be identical to the page in my 1941 catalog. > > Looks like they're all Pullmans. > > Don L. Correct me if I'm wrong (I often am). but as I understand it, the prewar heavyweights were celluloid, the postwar cardstock. I do not know of any cardstock cars other than the shorty combine and coach, and the 14 section pullman. The streamliners were all celluloid sides up to the introduction of the "shorty" metal streamliners in the early 1950's. The celluloid streamliners carry a copyright date of 1939 on the sides themselves (in the selvedge that gets cut off). I have seen them in three color variations, tuscan (which were also given away as cereal box premiums in the early 1950's, that's how my late Godfather got his), two-tone gray, and two tone blue. I have an almost complete set of the blue ones, (all except the combine_, and I am currently BUILDING, car by car, some of the gray ones for another list member. Pictures of all the ones I've found or done so far are in the "zDon Dellmann's Stuff - Passenger Cars" in the photo section at the group home page (some were found assembled, some I've actually built) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4811	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Hi Garry, After reading your post, it just struck me that Silver > Streak produced tank cars (wood/aluminum foil wrapper), even though I > have a few of them (built up); I had forgotten about them. Checking > back through all the Walthers catalogs I have, I cannot come up with > any of them. I'm not sure when they were discontinued, but I know > Pacific HO released them quite early, like in the early 1950's. If > they were discontinued within a short time span of that, this would > explain why they're not found in the Walthers catalogs, since Walthers > did not carry other manufacturers back then. > > I did find all the Pacific HO/ Silver Streak tank cars both in the 1950 > and the 1953 Model Railroad Equipment Corporation (Carmen Webster) > catalogs, but the listings do not have them inventoried with the > Pacific HO kit number, only their own. If you have the catalog numbers > for these Silver Streak tank cars, could you please forward them to > Chuck. They would include: Conoco, General American Tank - GATX, Shell > Chemical - SCMX (# 519) and Texaco. I don't know of any others unless > you do. Many thanks, Ray Speak of the devil. With any kind of luck I will have an unbuilt one of the tanker kits in my hot little hand by this evening (Monday) or Tuesday at the latest. (it was supposedly mailed last Friday. I'll let you know the name/numbers etc. as soon as I get it. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4812	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/6/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

Attachments : Roger A and list: The ones that I have, were purchased just before or during WW 2, as I was a teenager back then. Mine have the clear celluloid(?) material with the print (pressed, litho, whatever) on them. The bad feature was that the sides needed to be glued to the wood carbody, which was assembled, first. In time, the inside of the (I'll say it was celluloid (a popular item back then) which would warp or belly out, in a shallow curve. The part which was glued to the carbody remained flat, resulting in an interesting looking side wall. I have thought about peeling the side sheets off and cutting strathmore board, new car sides. I have maintained a 3 x 5 card file on all built rolling stock. All repairs and incidental costs are listed by date on the reverse side of the card. Here is a resume' of my PULLMAN cars. CONCORD: Class PS. Truck Serial Numbers 500-501, changed to 800-801. Built 1941 by Don Leistikow. OWNER (same). Manufactured by VARNEY Kit No. PA 307. KIWANIS: Class PS. Truck Serial Numbers (blank). Built by Don Leistikow. OWNER (same). Maufactured by WALTHERS Kit # 6603 RANGER: Class PS. Truck Serial No's. 802-803. Built 11-12-47 by Don Leistikow. OWNER (same). Manufactured by VARNEY Kit #PA309 SHASTA: Class PS. Truck Serial No's 904-905 BLK changed to 1000-1001. Built 1941. OWNER (same). Manufactured by VARNEY Kit No. PA300. SITTING BULL: Class PS. Truck Serial No's (not shown). Built (no date) by Donald J. Mueller. OWNER Don Leistikow. Manufactured by VARNEY Kit No. PA 314 VARNEY: Class PS. 80' Steel, 14 Section Sleeping Car. Manufacturer VARNEY Kit #PA-300. Trucks MDC Roundhouse #60-201. Couplers VARNEY #600 dummy. Builder, Don Leistikow. OWNER (same). Acquired 2nd hand from Garman's Hobby Shop April 12, 1974. Cost $2.49. Value $15.00 You will note that the last card entry is far more complete in description, thus a more valuable file and reference. This card file is for operational rolling stock and does not comprise cars in Kit form, not yet constructed. Any questions, anyone? Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4813	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Dang.......... I had completely forgotten that was in the case.......... Post TrainFest trauma ........... I'll get it out and crank out a bunch of ends over the next couple of days......... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jan 5, 2008, at 9:48 PM, Don Dellmann wrote: Just that Walthers end that you made a mold of at Trainfest.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers Jog me again............ I've got the patterns.......... Which car types did you want???? I suppose I should just go and make them all........... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jan 5, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Don Dellmann wrote: That was actually mentioned here a couple days ago for those who don't have excell.  I downloaded it myself the other night.   There is a database function on the group home page, but I don't know how much memory is allowed, or how functional it really is.   BTW, PING to Mike, were you able to make me any passenger car ends?  I'm ready for about five pair, have a whole pile of Varney card sides ready to go.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4814	From: erieberk	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Walthers (was Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Thanks for the reminder -- I had completely forgotten that they didn't start carrying other brands until they started Terminal Hobby in 1959, which explains why little else except their own stuff was included in their earlier catalogs, Yeah, as more years went on after 1959, they added more manufacturers to their catalogs. The 1964 catalog, for instance, includes Ulrich, Golden Spike, Central Valley and Main Line Models rolling stock kits in addition to the Silver Streak in the 1961 catalog. The Athearn offerings had disappeared by this time though. The Akane^ you mentioned is represented by 12 illustrated models, as well as 5 new models not illustrated -- nice prices if it were today's money. Structures and detail parts by other manufacturers were also entering the picture. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Walthers started Terminal Hobby in 1959 to carry brands other than their > own. The first ones over the first year or two were Binkley/Laconia, > Mainline, Silver Streak, Ulrich, and, believe it or not AKANE brass. > > For a time in the 1970's, they even printed a THS Catalog in addition to the > regular Walthers' book, listing the brands THS sold that Walthers didn't > distribute themselves. ( Labelle, Kar-Line, Cary etc. are a few that come to > mind, as well as other brass importers.) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:29 PM > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Oops, in browsing back through the Walthers 1961 catalog, I > > discovered an oversight on my part -- sorry, didn't mean to mislead > > you. More towards the back of the catalog, after the Binkley - > > Laconia products on pages 21 & 22, the Silver Streak offerings are > > displayed as well as the Athearn metal car kits, albeit without any > > of the round roof cars. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >> > >> Rick, > >> > >> One thing that many modelers may not realize, unlike the years > > after > >> 1970, Walthers did not carry anything in their much earlier > > catalogs > >> except their own equipment. Even as late as their 1961 catalog, > > the > >> only outside manufacturer they offered that year was Binkley. > > Thanks > >> a bunch for your offer anyway, it is appreciated. Ray > >> > >> > >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote: > >> > > >> > erieberk wrote: > >> > > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even > >> though > >> > > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long > > discontinued > >> by > >> > > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting > >> numbers > >> > > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. > >> > > >> > I have a 1974 Walther's catalog. I can look up some data in > >> that for > >> > you if necessary. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > Rick Jones > >> > > >> > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > >> > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > >> > > >> > Santa's Pickup Lines #10 - Hey Babe, when was the last time you > >> > did it in a sleigh? > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4815	From: erieberk	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Great find Don, those Silver Streak tankers have to be rare. Yes, please let us know the kit number and the rest of the details. I have the road number for the Conaco and the color was silver (but no box -- no kit number). Also have the kit number and road number for the GATX, but I don't remember the color (probably black?); its well buried and wouldn't find it easily. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Speak of the devil. With any kind of luck I will have an unbuilt one of the > tanker kits in my hot little hand by this evening (Monday) or Tuesday at the > latest. (it was supposedly mailed last Friday. I'll let you know the > name/numbers etc. as soon as I get it. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4816	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

----- Original Message ----- From: <DLeistikow@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:04 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VARNEY 64' PULLMANS > Roger A and list: The ones that I have, were purchased just before or > during WW 2, as I was a teenager back then. Mine have the clear > celluloid(?) material with the print (pressed, litho, whatever) on them. > > The bad feature was that the sides needed to be glued to the wood > carbody, which was assembled, first. In time, the inside of the (I'll > say it was celluloid (a popular item back then) which would warp or > belly out, in a shallow curve. The part which was glued to the carbody > remained flat, resulting in an interesting looking side wall. I have > thought about peeling the side sheets off and cutting strathmore board, > new car sides. > > I have maintained a 3 x 5 card file on all built rolling stock. All > repairs and incidental costs are listed by date on the reverse side of > the card. Here is a resume' of my PULLMAN cars. > > CONCORD: Class PS. Truck Serial Numbers 500-501, changed to 800-801. > Built 1941 by Don Leistikow. OWNER (same). Manufactured by VARNEY Kit > No. PA 307. > > KIWANIS: Class PS. Truck Serial Numbers (blank). Built by Don > Leistikow. OWNER (same). Maufactured by WALTHERS Kit # 6603 > > RANGER: Class PS. Truck Serial No's. 802-803. Built 11-12-47 by Don > Leistikow. OWNER (same). Manufactured by VARNEY Kit #PA309 > > SHASTA: Class PS. Truck Serial No's 904-905 BLK changed to 1000-1001. > Built 1941. OWNER (same). Manufactured by VARNEY Kit No. PA300. > > SITTING BULL: Class PS. Truck Serial No's (not shown). Built (no > date) by Donald J. Mueller. OWNER Don Leistikow. Manufactured by > VARNEY Kit No. PA 314 > > VARNEY: Class PS. 80' Steel, 14 Section Sleeping Car. Manufacturer > VARNEY Kit #PA-300. Trucks MDC Roundhouse #60-201. Couplers VARNEY > #600 dummy. Builder, Don Leistikow. OWNER (same). Acquired 2nd hand > from Garman's Hobby Shop April 12, 1974. Cost $2.49. Value $15.00 > > > You will note that the last card entry is far more complete in > description, thus a more valuable file and reference. > > This card file is for operational rolling stock and does not comprise > cars in Kit form, not yet constructed. > > Any questions, anyone? > > Don L. The cards can be a VERY valuable reference down the line. I do something similar, but in the form of 8 1/2 x 11 sheets in a binder, sorted by road name. I only have the data though for pieces I currently have, so there's not really any "historical" data about all the stuff that's passed through my hands over the years. I'm in the process of putting them all into the computer, so there's a printed sheet, along with a photograph, in the book for each piece. I also then put a photo up in my Flickr album so there's some sort of reference outside the house just in case. (if anyone cares, http://www.flickr.com/photos/20190284@N05/ ) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4817	From: erieberk	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Chuck, I got the chance to check out your Silver Streak file, and it looks like its laid out fine -- same as the MDC and easy to follow. There are a number of things that I'd like to draw your attention to, but am hoping you know its not criticism. We did have to make corrections on the MDC at that time also, but it turned out great. I was going to tell you to hold off until you got all my info, when you mentioned you'd start with the Walthers 1989 catalog, as it could have (and needs) to be rearranged differently in my opinion, but I didn't want to discourage you from starting; you seemed kind of eager. I also was hoping to save you from making too many unneeded corrections, but to have this spread sheet to be able to read where its not confusing, I think all the later Walthers needs to be added at the end, after the earlier listing, noting this overlapping situation with the time-frames involved. Many of your 1989 Walthers kit numbers for Silver Streak, using the Walthers prefix number 792, overlap the earlier mid- '70 - mid ' 80 Walthers (prefix # 929) Silver Streak using different road names, which is impossible to understand unless the later Walthers kit numbers/road names are separated from the earlier ones, and attentiion is made as to why. This especially goes for the reefer kit numbers #423 through #433, but most other groups are involved also. Okay, starting from the beginning, I spotted these thing that seem to need addressing, and I'm not trying to nit-pick. (1) For starters, I see where you included my Notations -- All box cars are box car red except as noted, All cabooses are caboose red except as noted, and then you unnecessarily filled in those colors in the description, which I don't quite understand. (2) I note you have the higher kit number (4-Wheel Bobber) cabooses first. I would have started with the lowest (Regular) caboose kit numbers (#110 through #128)and gone up from there. (3) The kit #176 EJ&E (Chicago Outer Belt) caboose's color description is RY Couldn't figure that one out at first myself. Might as well change it to Reefer Yellow like all the rest of those same descriptions. (4) The kit #110 SP caboose is 30' -- not 36'. (5) The kit #111 UP caboose is 30' -- not 36'. (6) The kit #112 B&O caboose is 28'. (7) The kit #113 GN caboose is 24'. (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut short to 2183. (9) The kit #121 Unlettered (undec.) caboose; NONE = No Number, so it can be removed from the kit number description slot. (10) The kit #122 MILW caboose should likewise have the complete road number -- 0255, not 255. (11) The kit #128 MKT caboose is Reefer Yellow. (12) The Walthers 792 Hart Gondolas, kit #161 through #169 need to be placed separately at the end, as these cars are original Pacific HO Silver Streak (with different kit numbers), otherwise, it looks confusing. Their original kit numbers are #500 through #509. (13) Ditto for the 36' wood box cars. Their original Walthers Silver Streak kit numbers are #228 through #233, which should be noted before these later Walthers kit numbers. (14) The 40' box cars -- series starting with kit number #201 -- I again, I would have put these before the higher number 36' box cars. (15) The 40' truss-rod reefers -- these are original Pacfic HO Silver Streak kits and should reflect the original Pacific HO kit numbers, at least at first, and not reflect the revised Walthers kit numbers until the end (separately). (16) Ditto for the 40' truss-rod box cars. Incidentally, these cars were originally lumped as "Truss-Rod Cars" by Pacifc HO, and they had the same kit number sequence, but its probably best to separate them as you had especially since their kit number series are now different. (17) Ditto for the 50' DD auto cars; The original Pacific HO kit numbers were #300 through #303 (and the early Walthers with different additional roads were #351 through #356). This needs to be first brought to a reader's attention. (18) Ditto for the MOW car kits. (19) Ditto for the truss-rod cabooses. (20) Drovers and Combination cabooses -- ought to be lumped after the other cabooses separately. (21) You're missing Drover & Combine caboose kit number #130 ATSF -- Box Car Red. (22) I don't see a need to have the C&NW Mechanical Reefer kit number #401 listed in a separate category since its part of the same (and original) Pacific HO grouping of kit numbers #401 through #420, which also included another C&NW Mechanical Reefer kit (#415). Also, some reefers in the same grouping were specified as for Ice Service only -- there'd be no sense to keep them separate. That's about it, except for the later 1989 Walthers kit numbers not jiving with the same earlier Walthers kit numbers, having different road names. Realizing this, maybe we should include the earlier Walthers prefer number (#929) for these kits as well to differentiate them from everything else, although I thought my "Notes" would have covered that. Let me know what you think on that. Best, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Well I have put the file up for the Pacific HO and Silver Streak cars. Let > me know how it looks. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:04 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk% 40wmconnect.com> com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:58 PM > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even though > > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued by > > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting numbers > > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. I should have the > > rest of this to you shortly, but not tonight. The format you used > > with the MDC would be just great. When we get to the Globe, you can > > use the info Garry was kind enough to send in and I'll fill you in on > > the rest -- or I'll just combine both lists here and send it all at > > once. Ray > > If it's any help, I have Walthers catalogs back to about 1969 which would be > > the Pacific HO numbers. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4818	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

Attachments : Well done, Don. Quite interesting and the photographic file, leaves no doubt as to the car's appearance. A photograph, is worth a thousand words. I too sort by Road Name or Initials first. Hence my lead comment in the posting of my PULLMAN cars. beneath that is the car number or name, then on the same line opposite, the AAR Class initials. I have long thought that this piece of railroadiana, should be extended into the hobby and carried as additional information for cataloging and record purposes. Even more important with Vintage rolling stock against today's offerings. Greatly enhancing a spread sheet for cross referencing. This would be first generated by the Hobby Industry manufacturers in their Catalogs and advertising. Perhaps, we could lobby this idea. Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4819	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers (was Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

One of the high points of my life was back around 1961 when this impressionable 14 year old kid and his friend rode the Cannonball into Milwaukee, and walked up to 1245 N. Water St. to be given a tour of the place by Bill Walthers himself. As near as I can tell, Walthers did not carry Athearn until 1970. (The '69 book only shows MDC Roundhouse for plastic cars)). 1970 or '71 also saw the introduction of Train Miniature (who also offered the Tru-scale plastic work car kits, which brings us back to Silver Streak <G>). An interesting study would be the "geneology" of all the different manufacturers (we touched on this in the thread on F-7 shells). Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:39 AM Subject: Walthers (was Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Thanks for the reminder -- I had completely forgotten that they > didn't start carrying other brands until they started Terminal Hobby > in 1959, which explains why little else except their own stuff was > included in their earlier catalogs, Yeah, as more years went on > after 1959, they added more manufacturers to their catalogs. The > 1964 catalog, for instance, includes Ulrich, Golden Spike, Central > Valley and Main Line Models rolling stock kits in addition to the > Silver Streak in the 1961 catalog. The Athearn offerings had > disappeared by this time though. The Akane^ you mentioned is > represented by 12 illustrated models, as well as 5 new models not > illustrated -- nice prices if it were today's money. Structures and > detail parts by other manufacturers were also entering the picture. > Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> Walthers started Terminal Hobby in 1959 to carry brands other than > their >> own. The first ones over the first year or two were > Binkley/Laconia, >> Mainline, Silver Streak, Ulrich, and, believe it or not AKANE brass. >> >> For a time in the 1970's, they even printed a THS Catalog in > addition to the >> regular Walthers' book, listing the brands THS sold that Walthers > didn't >> distribute themselves. ( Labelle, Kar-Line, Cary etc. are a few > that come to >> mind, as well as other brass importers.) >> >> Don >> >> don.dellmann@... >> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann >> Owner-Moderator >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> Co-owner >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:29 PM >> Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? >> >> >> > Oops, in browsing back through the Walthers 1961 catalog, I >> > discovered an oversight on my part -- sorry, didn't mean to > mislead >> > you. More towards the back of the catalog, after the Binkley - >> > Laconia products on pages 21 & 22, the Silver Streak offerings are >> > displayed as well as the Athearn metal car kits, albeit without > any >> > of the round roof cars. Ray >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: >> >> >> >> Rick, >> >> >> >> One thing that many modelers may not realize, unlike the years >> > after >> >> 1970, Walthers did not carry anything in their much earlier >> > catalogs >> >> except their own equipment. Even as late as their 1961 catalog, >> > the >> >> only outside manufacturer they offered that year was Binkley. >> > Thanks >> >> a bunch for your offer anyway, it is appreciated. Ray >> >> >> >> >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > erieberk wrote: >> >> > > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even >> >> though >> >> > > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long >> > discontinued >> >> by >> >> > > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting >> >> numbers >> >> > > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. >> >> > >> >> > I have a 1974 Walther's catalog. I can look up some data in >> >> that for >> >> > you if necessary. >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > >> >> > Rick Jones >> >> > >> >> > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad >> >> > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ >> >> > >> >> > Santa's Pickup Lines #10 - Hey Babe, when was the last time you >> >> > did it in a sleigh? >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4820	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

----- Original Message ----- From: <DLeistikow@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VARNEY 64' PULLMANS > Well done, Don. Quite interesting and the photographic file, leaves no > doubt as to the car's appearance. A photograph, is worth a thousand > words. > > I too sort by Road Name or Initials first. Hence my lead comment in the > posting of my PULLMAN cars. beneath that is the car number or name, > then on the same line opposite, the AAR Class initials. > > I have long thought that this piece of railroadiana, should be extended > into the hobby and carried as additional information for cataloging and > record purposes. Even more important with Vintage rolling stock against > today's offerings. Greatly enhancing a spread sheet for cross > referencing. > > This would be first generated by the Hobby Industry manufacturers in > their Catalogs and advertising. Perhaps, we could lobby this idea. > > Don L. Joe Russ was talking a few years ago about some people under the auspices of the NMRA compiling an "all time / all manufacturers" catalog, but nothing ever came of it. I had been doing something like that for HO just on my own for about 20 years, but I wasn't recording any catalog numbers or variations so it wasn't much good (just a listing like "over the years Athearn made plastic 40' box cars in these road names" sort of thing. HOWEVER, the databases that Chuck and others have been building for various manufacturers and the data they're posting in the files section could definitely be the start of just such a project (not that it would ever be completed in our lifetimes though). Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4821	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi All,     The one Silver Streak tank car I could locate quickly is the Shell Chemical Ray mentions (SCMX # 519).  Silver Streak’s catalogue number is SS 601.  If I find any more of these cars, I’ll report the numbers.                                                                                                                                                 Lou G. On 1/7/08 12:02 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Hi Garry,  After reading your post, it just struck me that Silver Streak produced tank cars (wood/aluminum foil wrapper), even though I have a few of them (built up); I had forgotten about them.  Checking back through all the Walthers catalogs I have, I cannot come up with any of them.  I'm not sure when they were discontinued, but I know Pacific HO released them quite early, like in the early 1950's.  If they were discontinued within a short time span of that, this would explain why they're not found in the Walthers catalogs, since Walthers did not carry other manufacturers back then. I did find all the Pacific HO/ Silver Streak tank cars both in the 1950 and the 1953 Model Railroad Equipment Corporation (Carmen Webster) catalogs, but the listings do not have them inventoried with the Pacific HO kit number, only their own.  If you have the catalog numbers for these Silver Streak tank cars, could you please forward them to Chuck.  They would include: Conoco, General American Tank - GATX, Shell Chemical - SCMX (# 519) and Texaco.  I don't know of any others unless you do.  Many thanks,  Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > > Not real easy to do.  The spread sheet contains: Athearn, Globe, > International, Mantua, MDC, Pacific Pike, Silver Streak (metal Tanks), > Thomas (tank cars), Ulrich, & Varney.  The list is my observations and > inventor.   > > Garry Spear > > >   > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4822	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

... I have seen them in three color variations, tuscan (which > were also given away as cereal box premiums in the early 1950's, that's how > my late Godfather got his), two-tone gray, and two tone blue. I have an > almost complete set of the blue ones, (all except the combine_, and I am > currently BUILDING, car by car, some of the gray ones for another list > member. ... > > Don The Clear-Sides lightweight cars also came in yellow with a green letterboard. I recently sold a bunch of these sides on e-Bay. Unfortunately, I ditched the photo. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4823	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:51 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Great find Don, those Silver Streak tankers have to be rare. Yes, > please let us know the kit number and the rest of the details. I > have the road number for the Conaco and the color was silver (but no > box -- no kit number). Also have the kit number and road number for > the GATX, but I don't remember the color (probably black?); its well > buried and wouldn't find it easily. Ray GOT THE SILVER STREAK TANK. Now, here's the skinny, with a kicker at the end! Box just reads "Silver Streak" "8000 gallon single dome tank car" "SS 601" "$2.60" No road name. Side of box says "The Silver Streak Line" "Mfgd. by Silver Streak Corporation - Los Angeles, Calif.' The Car itself is an SP yellow gasoline service car, just like the my Athearn, but road No. 58555. (Which appears on your Athearn list) The Instruction sheet is ATHEARN. copyright 1950, I.R. Athearn, drawn by J.J. Munson. There's also a separate sheet included stating the car is painted with "High Ball" model railroad paints mfg. by Practra Chemical Company, Los Angeles 13 Calif., and states their yellow is a match for this kit. It seems to me a stretch that a complete, no parts missing, Athearn car body still wrapped in wax paper, would find it's way into a Silver Streak tank car box. It appears that the Silver Streak tankers were made by Athearn at the time Athearn was advertising "O Scale Only". Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4824	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:50 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS > ... > I have seen them in three color variations, tuscan (which >> were also given away as cereal box premiums in the early 1950's, > that's how >> my late Godfather got his), two-tone gray, and two tone blue. I > have an >> almost complete set of the blue ones, (all except the combine_, and > I am >> currently BUILDING, car by car, some of the gray ones for another list >> member. > ... >> >> Don > > > The Clear-Sides lightweight cars also came in yellow with a green > letterboard. I recently sold a bunch of these sides on e-Bay. > Unfortunately, I ditched the photo. > > Walter I saw those. Were they same length as the grey ones we're doing? I passed on the auction because it looked like they were "shorty" cars. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4825	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:50 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VARNEY 64' PULLMANS > > > > ... > > I have seen them in three color variations, tuscan (which > >> were also given away as cereal box premiums in the early 1950's, > > that's how > >> my late Godfather got his), two-tone gray, and two tone blue. I > > have an > >> almost complete set of the blue ones, (all except the combine_, and > > I am > >> currently BUILDING, car by car, some of the gray ones for another list > >> member. > > ... > >> > >> Don > > > > > > The Clear-Sides lightweight cars also came in yellow with a green > > letterboard. I recently sold a bunch of these sides on e-Bay. > > Unfortunately, I ditched the photo. > > > > Walter > > I saw those. Were they same length as the grey ones we're doing? I passed > on the auction because it looked like they were "shorty" cars. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > Don, Yes, they were shorties. Baggage coaches and coaches. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4826	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Don,     I believe that what you have is an Athearn tank car kit in a Silver Streak box.  Your box, as described below, is exactly like the one I mentioned in my email to the group earlier today.  But the contents of my box are parts for a Shell Chemical tank car.  The body consists of a silver-colored foil wrapper, with black lettering, meant to be applied around a wooden dowel.  The underframe is very different from Athearn’s.  It’s made up of four separate soft metal castings.  The instruction sheet is included with this kit.  It has the Silver Streak logo at the top, and the illustrations match the car I just described.  The instructions are dated 9-9-49 and, interestingly enough, are credited to J. J. Munson whose name also appears on Athearn instruction sheets, including yours.                                                                                                                                                     Lou Greiff On 1/7/08 4:29 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:     ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@... <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:51 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Great find Don, those Silver Streak tankers have to be rare.  Yes, > please let us know the kit number and the rest of the details.  I > have the road number for the Conaco and the color was silver (but no > box -- no kit number).  Also have the kit number and road number for > the GATX, but I don't remember the color (probably black?); its well > buried and wouldn't find it easily.  Ray GOT THE SILVER STREAK TANK. Now, here's the skinny, with a kicker at the end! Box just reads "Silver Streak" "8000 gallon single dome tank car" "SS 601" "$2.60" No road name. Side of box says "The Silver Streak Line"  "Mfgd. by  Silver Streak Corporation - Los Angeles, Calif.' The Car itself is an SP yellow gasoline service car, just like the my Athearn, but road No. 58555.  (Which appears on your Athearn list) The Instruction sheet is ATHEARN.  copyright 1950, I.R. Athearn, drawn by J.J. Munson. There's also a separate sheet included stating the car is painted with "High Ball" model railroad paints mfg. by Practra Chemical Company, Los Angeles 13 Calif., and states their yellow is a match for this kit. It seems to me a stretch that a complete, no parts missing, Athearn car body still wrapped in wax paper, would find it's way into a Silver Streak tank car box. It appears that the Silver Streak tankers were made by Athearn at the time Athearn was advertising "O Scale Only". Don don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4827	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Hart Gondolas

erieberk wrote: > > (12) The Walthers 792 Hart Gondolas, kit #161 through #169 need to be > placed separately at the end, as these cars are original Pacific HO > Silver Streak (with different kit numbers), otherwise, it looks > confusing. Their original kit numbers are #500 through #509. Speaking of these kits, does anybody have a good alternative to the folded cardboard middle section used on these? I did build one up substituting some scribed siding material that I cut to about the same pattern, but I'm not entirely pleased with that. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ My reality check just bounced.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4828	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

I find it is easier to make corrections to something then nothing, so the first draft is ready for the changes. 1) Yes, I added the color notes by each line, so that it was there as opposed to reading the note at the bottom.  It makes for a consistent list with the color listed like the other cars.   2) I listed the Pacific HO numbers first in the group.  I did not know of the 929 to 792 change, but wonder if we should add a column for the second set of numbers?  Or do the rows first with the PH # and then the Walthers?  Or just add another note.  We could remove the color notes, I think.   3), missed that one.  I put in the short color, sorted by that column and then fixed the colors.   I have run out of time tonight.  I will get to the rest soon.  I agree that the cabooses should be in a row and will shift them around.  I had not received the other cars PH numbers, but from your notes below can add them, in front of the 792 numbers.   More tomorrow     Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 9:44 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Hi Chuck, I got the chance to check out your Silver Streak file, and it looks like its laid out fine -- same as the MDC and easy to follow. There are a number of things that I'd like to draw your attention to, but am hoping you know its not criticism. We did have to make corrections on the MDC at that time also, but it turned out great. I was going to tell you to hold off until you got all my info, when you mentioned you'd start with the Walthers 1989 catalog, as it could have (and needs) to be rearranged differently in my opinion, but I didn't want to discourage you from starting; you seemed kind of eager. I also was hoping to save you from making too many unneeded corrections, but to have this spread sheet to be able to read where its not confusing, I think all the later Walthers needs to be added at the end, after the earlier listing, noting this overlapping situation with the time-frames involved. Many of your 1989 Walthers kit numbers for Silver Streak, using the Walthers prefix number 792, overlap the earlier mid- '70 - mid ' 80 Walthers (prefix # 929) Silver Streak using different road names, which is impossible to understand unless the later Walthers kit numbers/road names are separated from the earlier ones, and attentiion is made as to why. This especially goes for the reefer kit numbers #423 through #433, but most other groups are involved also. Okay, starting from the beginning, I spotted these thing that seem to need addressing, and I'm not trying to nit-pick. (1) For starters, I see where you included my Notations -- All box cars are box car red except as noted, All cabooses are caboose red except as noted, and then you unnecessarily filled in those colors in the description, which I don't quite understand. (2) I note you have the higher kit number (4-Wheel Bobber) cabooses first. I would have started with the lowest (Regular) caboose kit numbers (#110 through #128)and gone up from there. (3) The kit #176 EJ&E (Chicago Outer Belt) caboose's color description is RY Couldn't figure that one out at first myself. Might as well change it to Reefer Yellow like all the rest of those same descriptions. (4) The kit #110 SP caboose is 30' -- not 36'. (5) The kit #111 UP caboose is 30' -- not 36'. (6) The kit #112 B&O caboose is 28'. (7) The kit #113 GN caboose is 24'. (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut short to 2183. (9) The kit #121 Unlettered (undec.) caboose; NONE = No Number, so it can be removed from the kit number description slot. (10) The kit #122 MILW caboose should likewise have the complete road number -- 0255, not 255. (11) The kit #128 MKT caboose is Reefer Yellow. (12) The Walthers 792 Hart Gondolas, kit #161 through #169 need to be placed separately at the end, as these cars are original Pacific HO Silver Streak (with different kit numbers), otherwise, it looks confusing. Their original kit numbers are #500 through #509. (13) Ditto for the 36' wood box cars. Their original Walthers Silver Streak kit numbers are #228 through #233, which should be noted before these later Walthers kit numbers. (14) The 40' box cars -- series starting with kit number #201 -- I again, I would have put these before the higher number 36' box cars. (15) The 40' truss-rod reefers -- these are original Pacfic HO Silver Streak kits and should reflect the original Pacific HO kit numbers, at least at first, and not reflect the revised Walthers kit numbers until the end (separately) . (16) Ditto for the 40' truss-rod box cars. Incidentally, these cars were originally lumped as "Truss-Rod Cars" by Pacifc HO, and they had the same kit number sequence, but its probably best to separate them as you had especially since their kit number series are now different. (17) Ditto for the 50' DD auto cars; The original Pacific HO kit numbers were #300 through #303 (and the early Walthers with different additional roads were #351 through #356). This needs to be first brought to a reader's attention. (18) Ditto for the MOW car kits. (19) Ditto for the truss-rod cabooses. (20) Drovers and Combination cabooses -- ought to be lumped after the other cabooses separately. (21) You're missing Drover & Combine caboose kit number #130 ATSF -- Box Car Red. (22) I don't see a need to have the C&NW Mechanical Reefer kit number #401 listed in a separate category since its part of the same (and original) Pacific HO grouping of kit numbers #401 through #420, which also included another C&NW Mechanical Reefer kit (#415). Also, some reefers in the same grouping were specified as for Ice Service only -- there'd be no sense to keep them separate. That's about it, except for the later 1989 Walthers kit numbers not jiving with the same earlier Walthers kit numbers, having different road names. Realizing this, maybe we should include the earlier Walthers prefer number (#929) for these kits as well to differentiate them from everything else, although I thought my "Notes" would have covered that. Let me know what you think on that. Best, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Well I have put the file up for the Pacific HO and Silver Streak cars. Let > me know how it looks. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:04 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect . <mailto:erieberk% 40wmconnect. com> com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:58 PM > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even though > > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued by > > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting numbers > > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. I should have the > > rest of this to you shortly, but not tonight. The format you used > > with the MDC would be just great. When we get to the Globe, you can > > use the info Garry was kind enough to send in and I'll fill you in on > > the rest -- or I'll just combine both lists here and send it all at > > once. Ray > > If it's any help, I have Walthers catalogs back to about 1969 which would be > > the Pacific HO numbers. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4829	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

I would say you're right.  It's a moot point, as I was going through the kit I said "There's no underframe", then I realized most of the loose pieces in the bottom were what was left of the underframe as it succumbed to lead rot.   Well, I have a good stock of tank car spare parts.   No great loss, in the same package was an interesting "Middlebrook" WOOD car kit for a rib side streamliner,  rather poorly proportioned (the roof looks WAY too high, and the windows low, I'll post pics tonight)., a late Walthers Silver Streak GB&W reefer I've always wanted (which is under construction already) and another Kasiner 80' coach to augment the one I already had.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Don,     I believe that what you have is an Athearn tank car kit in a Silver Streak box.  Your box, as described below, is exactly like the one I mentioned in my email to the group earlier today.  But the contents of my box are parts for a Shell Chemical tank car.  The body consists of a silver-colored foil wrapper, with black lettering, meant to be applied around a wooden dowel.  The underframe is very different from Athearn’s.  It’s made up of four separate soft metal castings.  The instruction sheet is included with this kit.  It has the Silver Streak logo at the top, and the illustrations match the car I just described.  The instructions are dated 9-9-49 and, interestingly enough, are credited to J. J. Munson whose name also appears on Athearn instruction sheets, including yours.                                                                                                                                                     Lou Greiff On 1/7/08 4:29 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:     ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@... <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:51 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Great find Don, those Silver Streak tankers have to be rare.  Yes, > please let us know the kit number and the rest of the details.  I > have the road number for the Conaco and the color was silver (but no > box -- no kit number).  Also have the kit number and road number for > the GATX, but I don't remember the color (probably black?); its well > buried and wouldn't find it easily.  Ray GOT THE SILVER STREAK TANK. Now, here's the skinny, with a kicker at the end! Box just reads "Silver Streak" "8000 gallon single dome tank car" "SS 601" "$2.60" No road name. Side of box says "The Silver Streak Line"  "Mfgd. by  Silver Streak Corporation - Los Angeles, Calif.' The Car itself is an SP yellow gasoline service car, just like the my Athearn, but road No. 58555.  (Which appears on your Athearn list) The Instruction sheet is ATHEARN.  copyright 1950, I.R. Athearn, drawn by J.J. Munson. There's also a separate sheet included stating the car is painted with "High Ball" model railroad paints mfg. by Practra Chemical Company, Los Angeles 13 Calif., and states their yellow is a match for this kit. It seems to me a stretch that a complete, no parts missing, Athearn car body still wrapped in wax paper, would find it's way into a Silver Streak tank car box. It appears that the Silver Streak tankers were made by Athearn at the time Athearn was advertising "O Scale Only". Don don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4830	From: erieberk	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you already have, after first going with that information; at least you had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I agree, you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more work to have to type each color in though. After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group (Cabooses, Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best to have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and then do all the Walthers (792) later production. I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, then Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to make). A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes of Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to make a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then finally, all of the later (792) production. For instance: Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production Walthers (792) -- Later Production For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 groupings like this, one grouping after the other, in "chronological" order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you think. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > I find it is easier to make corrections to something then nothing, so the > first draft is ready for the changes. > > 1) Yes, I added the color notes by each line, so that it was there as > opposed to reading the note at the bottom. It makes for a consistent list > with the color listed like the other cars. > > > > 2) I listed the Pacific HO numbers first in the group. I did not know of > the 929 to 792 change, but wonder if we should add a column for the second > set of numbers? Or do the rows first with the PH # and then the Walthers? > Or just add another note. We could remove the color notes, I think. > > > > 3), missed that one. I put in the short color, sorted by that column and > then fixed the colors. > > > > I have run out of time tonight. I will get to the rest soon. I agree that > the cabooses should be in a row and will shift them around. I had not > received the other cars PH numbers, but from your notes below can add them, > in front of the 792 numbers. > > > > More tomorrow > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 9:44 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > Hi Chuck, I got the chance to check out your Silver Streak file, and > it looks like its laid out fine -- same as the MDC and easy to > follow. There are a number of things that I'd like to draw your > attention to, but am hoping you know its not criticism. We did have > to make corrections on the MDC at that time also, but it turned out > great. I was going to tell you to hold off until you got all my > info, when you mentioned you'd start with the Walthers 1989 catalog, > as it could have (and needs) to be rearranged differently in my > opinion, but I didn't want to discourage you from starting; you > seemed kind of eager. I also was hoping to save you from making too > many unneeded corrections, but to have this spread sheet to be able > to read where its not confusing, I think all the later Walthers needs > to be added at the end, after the earlier listing, noting this > overlapping situation with the time-frames involved. Many of your > 1989 Walthers kit numbers for Silver Streak, using the Walthers > prefix number 792, overlap the earlier mid- '70 - mid ' 80 Walthers > (prefix # 929) Silver Streak using different road names, which is > impossible to understand unless the later Walthers kit numbers/road > names are separated from the earlier ones, and attentiion is made as > to why. This especially goes for the reefer kit numbers #423 through > #433, but most other groups are involved also. > > Okay, starting from the beginning, I spotted these thing that seem to > need addressing, and I'm not trying to nit-pick. > > (1) For starters, I see where you included my Notations -- All box > cars are box car red except as noted, All cabooses are caboose red > except as noted, and then you unnecessarily filled in those colors in > the description, which I don't quite understand. > > (2) I note you have the higher kit number (4-Wheel Bobber) cabooses > first. I would have started with the lowest (Regular) caboose kit > numbers (#110 through #128)and gone up from there. > > (3) The kit #176 EJ&E (Chicago Outer Belt) caboose's color > description is RY Couldn't figure that one out at first myself. > Might as well change it to Reefer Yellow like all the rest of those > same descriptions. > > (4) The kit #110 SP caboose is 30' -- not 36'. > > (5) The kit #111 UP caboose is 30' -- not 36'. > > (6) The kit #112 B&O caboose is 28'. > > (7) The kit #113 GN caboose is 24'. > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut short > to 2183. > > (9) The kit #121 Unlettered (undec.) caboose; NONE = No Number, so it > can be removed from the kit number description slot. > > (10) The kit #122 MILW caboose should likewise have the complete road > number -- 0255, not 255. > > (11) The kit #128 MKT caboose is Reefer Yellow. > > (12) The Walthers 792 Hart Gondolas, kit #161 through #169 need to be > placed separately at the end, as these cars are original Pacific HO > Silver Streak (with different kit numbers), otherwise, it looks > confusing. Their original kit numbers are #500 through #509. > > (13) Ditto for the 36' wood box cars. Their original Walthers Silver > Streak kit numbers are #228 through #233, which should be noted > before these later Walthers kit numbers. > > (14) The 40' box cars -- series starting with kit number #201 -- I > again, I would have put these before the higher number 36' box cars. > > (15) The 40' truss-rod reefers -- these are original Pacfic HO Silver > Streak kits and should reflect the original Pacific HO kit numbers, > at least at first, and not reflect the revised Walthers kit numbers > until the end (separately). > > (16) Ditto for the 40' truss-rod box cars. Incidentally, these cars > were originally lumped as "Truss-Rod Cars" by Pacifc HO, and they had > the same kit number sequence, but its probably best to separate them > as you had especially since their kit number series are now different. > > (17) Ditto for the 50' DD auto cars; The original Pacific HO kit > numbers were #300 through #303 (and the early Walthers with different > additional roads were #351 through #356). This needs to be first > brought to a reader's attention. > > (18) Ditto for the MOW car kits. > > (19) Ditto for the truss-rod cabooses. > > (20) Drovers and Combination cabooses -- ought to be lumped after the > other cabooses separately. > > (21) You're missing Drover & Combine caboose kit number #130 ATSF -- > Box Car Red. > > (22) I don't see a need to have the C&NW Mechanical Reefer kit number > #401 listed in a separate category since its part of the same (and > original) Pacific HO grouping of kit numbers #401 through #420, which > also included another C&NW Mechanical Reefer kit (#415). Also, some > reefers in the same grouping were specified as for Ice Service only -- > there'd be no sense to keep them separate. > > That's about it, except for the later 1989 Walthers kit numbers not > jiving with the same earlier Walthers kit numbers, having different > road names. Realizing this, maybe we should include the earlier > Walthers prefer number (#929) for these kits as well to differentiate > them from everything else, although I thought my "Notes" would have > covered that. Let me know what you think on that. Best, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Well I have put the file up for the Pacific HO and Silver Streak > cars. Let > > me know how it looks. > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of Don Dellmann > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 8:04 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk% > 40wmconnect.com> com> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com> > > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:58 PM > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > > > Chuck, I guess the Walthers 1989 might be of some help even though > > > it won't give you the Pacific HO that has been long discontinued > by > > > that time. You might also be able to pick up a few reporting > numbers > > > from the larger photos, if you can make them out. I should have > the > > > rest of this to you shortly, but not tonight. The format you used > > > with the MDC would be just great. When we get to the Globe, you > can > > > use the info Garry was kind enough to send in and I'll fill you > in on > > > the rest -- or I'll just combine both lists here and send it all > at > > > once. Ray > > > > If it's any help, I have Walthers catalogs back to about 1969 which > would be > > > > the Pacific HO numbers. > > > > Don > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4831	From: erieberk	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Don, Glad to hear you received the kit, but as Lou said, this is a mixture of Athearn (and Silver Streak, if there are any) parts. Still good stuff if you don't already have the Athearn SP Gasoline tank car, but this is definitely not Silver Streak production. BTW, the SS kit #601 is GATX 1001. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Don, > > I believe that what you have is an Athearn tank car kit in a Silver > Streak box. Your box, as described below, is exactly like the one I > mentioned in my email to the group earlier today. But the contents of my > box are parts for a Shell Chemical tank car. The body consists of a > silver-colored foil wrapper, with black lettering, meant to be applied > around a wooden dowel. The underframe is very different from Athearn¹s. > It¹s made up of four separate soft metal castings. The instruction sheet is > included with this kit. It has the Silver Streak logo at the top, and the > illustrations match the car I just described. The instructions are dated > 9-9-49 and, interestingly enough, are credited to J. J. Munson whose name > also appears on Athearn instruction sheets, including yours. > > > Lou Greiff > > > On 1/7/08 4:29 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@... <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:51 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > >> > Great find Don, those Silver Streak tankers have to be rare. Yes, > >> > please let us know the kit number and the rest of the details. I > >> > have the road number for the Conaco and the color was silver (but no > >> > box -- no kit number). Also have the kit number and road number for > >> > the GATX, but I don't remember the color (probably black?); its well > >> > buried and wouldn't find it easily. Ray > > > > GOT THE SILVER STREAK TANK. > > > > Now, here's the skinny, with a kicker at the end! > > > > Box just reads "Silver Streak" "8000 gallon single dome tank car" "SS 601" > > "$2.60" > > > > No road name. > > > > Side of box says "The Silver Streak Line" "Mfgd. by Silver Streak > > Corporation - Los Angeles, Calif.' > > > > The Car itself is an SP yellow gasoline service car, just like the my > > Athearn, but road No. 58555. (Which appears on your Athearn list) > > > > The Instruction sheet is ATHEARN. copyright 1950, I.R. Athearn, drawn by > > J.J. Munson. > > > > There's also a separate sheet included stating the car is painted with "High > > Ball" model railroad paints mfg. by Practra Chemical Company, Los Angeles 13 > > Calif., and states their yellow is a match for this kit. > > > > It seems to me a stretch that a complete, no parts missing, Athearn car body > > still wrapped in wax paper, would find it's way into a Silver Streak tank > > car box. > > It appears that the Silver Streak tankers were made by Athearn at the time > > Athearn was advertising "O Scale Only". > > > > Don > > > > don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > > Owner-Moderator > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > > Co-owner > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4832	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

If Silver Streak’s SS kit # 601 is GATX 1001, does anyone know the correct kit number for Shell Chemical S.C.M.X. 519, which is the car inside my SS 601 box?  Thanks.                                                                                                                     Lou Greiff On 1/8/08 10:42 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Don,  Glad to hear you received the kit, but as Lou said, this is a mixture of Athearn (and Silver Streak, if there are any) parts.   Still good stuff if you don't already have the Athearn SP Gasoline tank car, but this is definitely not Silver Streak production.  BTW, the SS kit #601 is GATX 1001.   Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Don, > >     I believe that what you have is an Athearn tank car kit in a Silver > Streak box.  Your box, as described below, is exactly like the one I > mentioned in my email to the group earlier today.  But the contents of my > box are parts for a Shell Chemical tank car.  The body consists of a > silver-colored foil wrapper, with black lettering, meant to be applied > around a wooden dowel.  The underframe is very different from Athearn’s. > It’s made up of four separate soft metal castings.  The instruction sheet is > included with this kit.  It has the Silver Streak logo at the top, and the > illustrations match the car I just described.  The instructions are dated > 9-9-49 and, interestingly enough, are credited to J. J. Munson whose name > also appears on Athearn instruction sheets, including yours. > >                     > Lou Greiff > > > On 1/7/08 4:29 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > >   > >   > >   > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@... <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:51 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > >> > Great find Don, those Silver Streak tankers have to be rare.   Yes, > >> > please let us know the kit number and the rest of the details.  I > >> > have the road number for the Conaco and the color was silver (but no > >> > box -- no kit number).  Also have the kit number and road number for > >> > the GATX, but I don't remember the color (probably black?); its well > >> > buried and wouldn't find it easily.  Ray > > > > GOT THE SILVER STREAK TANK. > > > > Now, here's the skinny, with a kicker at the end! > > > > Box just reads "Silver Streak" "8000 gallon single dome tank car" "SS 601" > > "$2.60" > > > > No road name. > > > > Side of box says "The Silver Streak Line"  "Mfgd. by  Silver Streak > > Corporation - Los Angeles, Calif.' > > > > The Car itself is an SP yellow gasoline service car, just like the my > > Athearn, but road No. 58555.  (Which appears on your Athearn list) > > > > The Instruction sheet is ATHEARN.  copyright 1950, I.R. Athearn, drawn by > > J.J. Munson. > > > > There's also a separate sheet included stating the car is painted with "High > > Ball" model railroad paints mfg. by Practra Chemical Company, Los Angeles 13 > > Calif., and states their yellow is a match for this kit. > > > > It seems to me a stretch that a complete, no parts missing, Athearn car body > > still wrapped in wax paper, would find it's way into a Silver Streak tank > > car box. > > It appears that the Silver Streak tankers were made by Athearn at the time > > Athearn was advertising "O Scale Only". > > > > Don > > > > don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > > Owner-Moderator > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > > Co-owner > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > >   > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4833	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 9:42 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Don, Glad to hear you received the kit, but as Lou said, this is a mixture of Athearn (and Silver Streak, if there are any) parts. Still good stuff if you don't already have the Athearn SP Gasoline tank car, but this is definitely not Silver Streak production. BTW, the SS kit #601 is GATX 1001. Ray 'cept I already DID have an Athearn metal in the SP gasoline yellow, just a different road number. I may be able to fabricate a frame, it's just a "back burner" project for now. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4834	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak

Hi Ray, The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up.   Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP?   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you already have, after first going with that information; at least you had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I agree, you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more work to have to type each color in though. After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group (Cabooses, Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best to have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and then do all the Walthers (792) later production. I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, then Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to make). A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes of Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to make a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then finally, all of the later (792) production. For instance: Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production Walthers (792) -- Later Production For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 groupings like this, one grouping after the other, in "chronological" order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you think. Ray > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut short > to 2183. > _._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4835	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/8/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section.  Also take a look at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chuck Higdon Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Hi Ray, The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up.   Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP?   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?   Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you already have, after first going with that information; at least you had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I agree, you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more work to have to type each color in though. After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group (Cabooses, Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best to have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and then do all the Walthers (792) later production. I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, then Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to make). A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes of Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to make a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then finally, all of the later (792) production. For instance: Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production Walthers (792) -- Later Production For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 groupings like this, one grouping after the other, in "chronological" order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you think. Ray > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut short > to 2183. > _._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4836	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak

Hi Chuck, Oops, my mistake; must have looked back on the wrong number when referring to my list as I was typing this. #120 Erie should be 04956 and #115 SP "Piggy Back" is 2183 (no "0" in front of this one). Yeah, I thought it might be easiest to understand where the kits started in their production from separating them into the groups they started with. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual > Athearn? > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you > already have, after first going with that information; at least you > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I agree, > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more > work to have to type each color in though. > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group (Cabooses, > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best to > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) > production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, then > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to > make). > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, > which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes of > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to make > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > For instance: > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, in "chronological" > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you > think. Ray > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut > short > > to 2183. > > > _._,___ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4837	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Chuck, Okay, I've just checked out your latest draft. Although I know you're eager to get something out, in looking it over I think it might be best to wait until getting my whole input before making corrections. For starters, NONE of the 4-Wheel Bobber Cabooses were original Pacific HO production, but don't change that yet (please wait until you get everything). The other thing is that almost all of your Walthers 929 kit numbers are NOT 929 kit numbers. Of the remaining 929 kit numbers you have which are actual 929 kit numbers, none of the road names for these 929 kits numbers are correct. I also note that you have the 729 Hart Gondolas listed right after the Pacific HO Bobber Caboose (which can be eliminated for Pacific HO) listing instead of having them at the end after the 929 listings, but maybe you were just waiting for more data before moving them around (?). Sorry to have to put you through all the extra work, but perhaps you should have waited for my complete listings after all, as it may be less confusing that way. Oh, I guess you can eliminate the Note on your line 147 about the PH Catalog #'s (PH#__), and the Walthers Catalog #'s (792#__), unless you want to include the Walthers 929, with an explanation as to which ones came first and also which 929's are Pacific HO re-do's, but I don't think that's necessary if you have the full headings for these four groups as I suggested. We can also do away with the Notes on your pages 149 & 151 about the car colors since you're including them all with every car. I'll start from scratch, first with all the Pacific HO numbers (only), hopefully later today, then go to Walthers 929 re-makes of Pacific HO and then to all the Walthers 929 new kits (that were never produced by Pacific HO). Best regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. Also take a look > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Chuck Higdon > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Ray, > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual > Athearn? > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you > already have, after first going with that information; at least you > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I agree, > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more > work to have to type each color in though. > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group (Cabooses, > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best to > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) > production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, then > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to > make). > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, > which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes of > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to make > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > For instance: > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, in "chronological" > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you > think. Ray > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut > short > > to 2183. > > > _._,___ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4838	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Bummer on already having one of these Athearn tankers. Maybe you can return it (its not as advertised), although sometimes the extra postage to return it isn't worth it. These are in demand though, so shouldn't be too hard to pass it on to another collector. Just too bad it wasn't a Silver Streak. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 9:42 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > > > Don, Glad to hear you received the kit, but as Lou said, this is a > mixture of Athearn (and Silver Streak, if there are any) parts. > Still good stuff if you don't already have the Athearn SP Gasoline > tank car, but this is definitely not Silver Streak production. BTW, > the SS kit #601 is GATX 1001. Ray > > 'cept I already DID have an Athearn metal in the SP gasoline yellow, just a > different road number. > > I may be able to fabricate a frame, it's just a "back burner" project for > now. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4839	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Rivarossi parts

Any one know who stocks, if any, older Rivarossi parts...what I need is a motor (part # 4154 ?? complete with worm gear) for the Krauss-Maffei imported some 30+ years ago. I foolishly took mine apart and cannot get all those tiny ball bearings back...not sure I haven't lost a few; the result is the motor won't turn. Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4840	From: oljoeoh	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi parts

Ray.... I did exactly what you are trying to do with those miserable little ball bearings and the solution is simple and cheap. All you need to do is put some grease in the little cup that retains (I hesistate to say hold) the bearing set. Then put some of the same grease on the little bearings and "pack" them into the cup and they should stay put while you put in the armature. Don't forget there is a matching set of those critters on the bottom end also. A side benefit is a much better running motor. Note: You MUST have all of the bearings for that motor to run. Short counts just don't cut it. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: > > Any one know who stocks, if any, older Rivarossi parts...what I need is a > motor (part # 4154 ?? complete with worm gear) for the Krauss-Maffei > imported some 30+ years ago. I foolishly took mine apart and cannot get > all those tiny ball bearings back...not sure I haven't lost a few; the > result is the motor won't turn. > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4841	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi parts

I don't know if it will help--but I think that drive was the same as the E-8 drive. But why mess with the little 3-pole motor--I think that the LifeLike RSC-2 has the same axle spacing--do a complete drive transplant. gj (3 axles, equally spaced) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 6:52 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi parts > Any one know who stocks, if any, older Rivarossi parts...what I need is a > motor (part # 4154 ?? complete with worm gear) for the Krauss-Maffei > imported some 30+ years ago. I foolishly took mine apart and cannot get > all those tiny ball bearings back...not sure I haven't lost a few; the > result is the motor won't turn. > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4842	From: jerrygart5	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi parts

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: > > Any one know who stocks, if any, older Rivarossi parts...what I need is a > motor (part # 4154 ?? complete with worm gear) for the Krauss-Maffei > imported some 30+ years ago. I foolishly took mine apart and cannot get > all those tiny ball bearings back...not sure I haven't lost a few; the > result is the motor won't turn. > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] > Try www.golfmanorhobbies.com ; they are in Cincinnati OH and have hard to come by Rivarossi. Beware-some stuff is pricey! Jerry Garteiser

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4843	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: MHP / Wright Enterprise

Just received two corrugated SP cars which might have been the #1 and #3 parts of an three unit articulated diner ... painted Daylight, with silver stripes applied seperatedly, wood roof and floor, sides are metal - most likely tinplate , when I scratch the inside its silver colored. Box says MHP/ Southern Pacific "Daylight"/ 201' Articulated Diner, WE-50004-C / Wright Enterprises, Thousand Oaks, Calif, USA / H0 Scale Equipment / Corrugated Sides. Dave Coscias SP site mentions this company but has no background info. I foolisly missed the other three cars on auction.... Anybody with more info on MHP / Wright? Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4844	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Chuck, I'm sending just the complete Pacific HO with this post. There is no prefix number -- only Walthers used a prefix number for Silver Streak, for their inventory of this manufacturer. PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK Regular Caboose: Kit # Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color #103 Undec. 28' None Caboose Red #104 Undec. 30' None Caboose Red #110 SP 30' Caboose Red #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer Yellow #112 B&O 28' Caboose Red #113 GN 24' Caboose Red #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver #116 SP (Bay Window) Tuscan Red #117 Undec. (Bay Window) Tuscan Red #118 PC - Pacific Electric (No Cupola) Caboose Red #119 Undec. (No Cupola) Caboose Red Truss Rod Caboose: #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 Caboose Red #121 Undec. (Truss Rod) Caboose Red ___________________O___________________ More To Come --- Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. Also take a look > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Chuck Higdon > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Ray, > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual > Athearn? > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you > already have, after first going with that information; at least you > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I agree, > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more > work to have to type each color in though. > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group (Cabooses, > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best to > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) > production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, then > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to > make). > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, > which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes of > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to make > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > For instance: > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, in "chronological" > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you > think. Ray > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut > short > > to 2183. > > > _._,___ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4845	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Eric, The bigger file took about ten minutes to whip around.  So I am just setting it up to delete what needs to go and revise what needs to be revised.  I know a few short cuts that make it easy to work with these files.  I will be model railroading soon tonight, so more soon. Take care.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:14 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Chuck, Okay, I've just checked out your latest draft. Although I know you're eager to get something out, in looking it over I think it might be best to wait until getting my whole input before making corrections. For starters, NONE of the 4-Wheel Bobber Cabooses were original Pacific HO production, but don't change that yet (please wait until you get everything). The other thing is that almost all of your Walthers 929 kit numbers are NOT 929 kit numbers. Of the remaining 929 kit numbers you have which are actual 929 kit numbers, none of the road names for these 929 kits numbers are correct. I also note that you have the 729 Hart Gondolas listed right after the Pacific HO Bobber Caboose (which can be eliminated for Pacific HO) listing instead of having them at the end after the 929 listings, but maybe you were just waiting for more data before moving them around (?). Sorry to have to put you through all the extra work, but perhaps you should have waited for my complete listings after all, as it may be less confusing that way. Oh, I guess you can eliminate the Note on your line 147 about the PH Catalog #'s (PH#__), and the Walthers Catalog #'s (792#__), unless you want to include the Walthers 929, with an explanation as to which ones came first and also which 929's are Pacific HO re-do's, but I don't think that's necessary if you have the full headings for these four groups as I suggested. We can also do away with the Notes on your pages 149 & 151 about the car colors since you're including them all with every car. I'll start from scratch, first with all the Pacific HO numbers (only), hopefully later today, then go to Walthers 929 re-makes of Pacific HO and then to all the Walthers 929 new kits (that were never produced by Pacific HO). Best regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. Also take a look > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of Chuck Higdon > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Ray, > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual > Athearn? > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you > already have, after first going with that information; at least you > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I agree, > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more > work to have to type each color in though. > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group (Cabooses, > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best to > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) > production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, then > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to > make). > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, > which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes of > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to make > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > For instance: > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, in "chronological" > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you > think. Ray > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut > short > > to 2183. > > > _._,___ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4846	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK Standard 40' Box Car: Kit# Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color #201 UP (Union Pacific) 68142, 71991 Box Car Red #207 CG (Central of Georgia) 40581, 40584 Box Car Red #208 EJ&E (Chicago Outer Belt) 60357 Dark Green #209 SA (Savanna & Atlanta) 8073 Box Car Red #210 M&StL (Minn. & St' Louis) 50468 Light Green #211 C&O 2570 Box Car Red #212 Minnesota Mining (3-M) 1043 Box Car Red #213 SLSF (Frisco) 132053 Box Car Red #214 RI (Rocket Freight) 69852 Box Car Red #215 D&RGW ("Cookie Box") 60007 White #216 M&StL (Billboard) 54652 Caboose Red #217 GN 73232 Box Car Red #218 GN 52069 Box Car Red #219 PE - Pacific Electric 2377 Box Car Red #220 MKT ("Katy") 170198 Reefer Yellow 50' DD Automobile Car: #301 Southern 149703 Box Car Red #302 D&RGW 65530 Box Car Red #303 GN (Billboard) 3506 Caboose Red 40' Refrigerator Car: #403 NP 92663 Reefer Orange #404 SP-UP (PFE) Reefer Orange #405 SP-UP (PFE) 71117 Reefer Orange #407 C&NW (Northwestern) 1039 Reefer Grey #408 GB&W (Green Bay) 9227 Reefer Grey #409 MDT (NYC) 22250 White #410 ATSF (Super Chief) 24375 Reefer Orange #410 ATSF (Grand Canyon) 26079 Reefer Orange #411 ART (Wab/MoPac) 22654, 22763 Reefer Yellow #412 Swift 7386 Caboose Red #413 Oscar Meyer 5003 Reefer Yellow #414 CB&Q (Zephyr) 75210 Reefer Yellow #415 C&NW (Mechanical Temp.) 3953 Yellow/Dk Green #416 UP-SP (PFE) 30127, 30130 Reefer Orange #417 Morrell 9206 Reefer Yellow #418 PFE (Ice Service) 65005, 65009 Reefer Orange #419 C&NW Reefer Grey #420 BAR (Maine Potato) 6535 White/Lt Blue #421 MDT (NYC) 22250 White _______________O_________________ More to come, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Chuck, I'm sending just the complete Pacific HO with this post. > There is no prefix number -- only Walthers used a prefix number for > Silver Streak, for their inventory of this manufacturer. > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > Regular Caboose: > > Kit # Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color > > #103 Undec. 28' None Caboose Red > > #104 Undec. 30' None Caboose Red > > #110 SP 30' Caboose Red > > #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer Yellow > > #112 B&O 28' Caboose Red > > #113 GN 24' Caboose Red > > #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver > > #116 SP (Bay Window) Tuscan Red > > #117 Undec. (Bay Window) Tuscan Red > > #118 PC - Pacific Electric (No Cupola) Caboose Red > > #119 Undec. (No Cupola) Caboose Red > > > Truss Rod Caboose: > > #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 Caboose Red > > #121 Undec. (Truss Rod) Caboose Red > > > ___________________O___________________ > > > More To Come --- Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. Also > take a look > > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf > > Of Chuck Higdon > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual > > Athearn? > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you > > already have, after first going with that information; at least you > > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do > > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I > agree, > > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more > > work to have to type each color in though. > > > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, > > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group > (Cabooses, > > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers > > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the > > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best > to > > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) > > production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and > > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are > > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, > then > > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to > > make). > > > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, > > which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the > > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes > of > > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to > make > > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW > > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then > > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > > > For instance: > > > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, > in "chronological" > > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when > > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you > > think. Ray > > > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut > > short > > > to 2183. > > > > > _._,___ > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4847	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] MHP / Wright Enterprise > > Just received two corrugated SP cars which might have been the #1 and #3 > parts of an three unit articulated diner ... painted Daylight, with > silver stripes applied seperatedly, wood roof and floor, sides are metal > - most likely tinplate , when I scratch the inside its silver colored. > Box says MHP/ Southern Pacific "Daylight"/ 201' Articulated Diner, > WE-50004-C / Wright Enterprises, Thousand Oaks, Calif, USA / H0 Scale > Equipment / Corrugated Sides. > > Dave Coscias SP site mentions this company but has no background info. I > foolisly missed the other three cars on auction.... > > Anybody with more info on MHP / Wright? > > Thanks Gerold Other than the fact that I have three of their cars...(all smooth side sleepers though)/ This was the same Wright that sold the MHP/Wright diaphragms for as long as I can remember. They started with rib side and smooth side cars for the SP daylight, then added SP Lark & Cascade cars, also NYC, PRR, GN Empire builder, IC, UP "City" trains, NP, CN and a couple Santa Fe sleepers. The only thing I've never seen is an observation for any of the trains. The kits came out in the late 1960's, appeared in the Walthers catalog from the late 60's through the early 70's. sold for around $ 10.00 per car (your cars were sold as a three unit set for $ 30.35 less trucks & couplers in 1969) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4848	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

Here Goes: Originally "Boxcar Ken" Casford (Caswell?) made a whole series of DP cars in O Scale, using the construction you describe. A nice feature was the way the roof was formed to keep the top of the side in place. Dick Wright got together with him and produced the same cars in HO. Wright also got access to the SP archives, and wrote THE definitive book on the Daylights. It has been said that with this book and $20 million, one could build a complete replica of the train. The info in the book gets down to the lettering on the restroom doors. It is available from Daylight Sales in Sacramento. (For $125, last I heard. One printing went for $175--my "first edition" was what I thought was an outrageous $30). Do the cars you have have vestibules at the end which has the complete skirting (as opposed to cut away for the articulation joint)? If so, you have an articulated coach pair. The Diner and Coffee Shop did not have vestibules, in which case you are missing the Kitchen. If you don't have a copy of Wright's book available, if you would like to copy your sides and mail them to me, I can compare them to the plans in the book. If youi are able to scan them--fine--I haven't figured that out--or send the copies (just lay them on the glass and close the cover) to me and I'll email back what they are. Don't forget to include your email address. Glenn Joesten 3825 Pruett Drive Yreka CA 96097 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] MHP / Wright Enterprise > > Just received two corrugated SP cars which might have been the #1 and #3 > parts of an three unit articulated diner ... painted Daylight, with > silver stripes applied seperatedly, wood roof and floor, sides are metal > - most likely tinplate , when I scratch the inside its silver colored. > Box says MHP/ Southern Pacific "Daylight"/ 201' Articulated Diner, > WE-50004-C / Wright Enterprises, Thousand Oaks, Calif, USA / H0 Scale > Equipment / Corrugated Sides. > > Dave Coscias SP site mentions this company but has no background info. I > foolisly missed the other three cars on auction.... > > Anybody with more info on MHP / Wright? > > Thanks Gerold > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4849	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Hi Chuck, I just finished up all the rest of Pacific HO, and just as I completed it -- and before I could send it -- I got a message that the connection failed (got knocked off line), I have dial-up -- and of course lost everything I just typed for the last of the Pacific HO stuff. I guess the 'putor figured I was on too long or some d*mn thing, and cut me off. I'll finish it up in the morning; just not up to it right now after getting wiped out. Later Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > Standard 40' Box Car: > > Kit# Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color > > #201 UP (Union Pacific) 68142, 71991 Box Car Red > > #207 CG (Central of Georgia) 40581, 40584 Box Car Red > > #208 EJ&E (Chicago Outer Belt) 60357 Dark Green > > #209 SA (Savanna & Atlanta) 8073 Box Car Red > > #210 M&StL (Minn. & St' Louis) 50468 Light Green > > #211 C&O 2570 Box Car Red > > #212 Minnesota Mining (3-M) 1043 Box Car Red > > #213 SLSF (Frisco) 132053 Box Car Red > > #214 RI (Rocket Freight) 69852 Box Car Red > > #215 D&RGW ("Cookie Box") 60007 White > > #216 M&StL (Billboard) 54652 Caboose Red > > #217 GN 73232 Box Car Red > > #218 GN 52069 Box Car Red > > #219 PE - Pacific Electric 2377 Box Car Red > > #220 MKT ("Katy") 170198 Reefer Yellow > > > 50' DD Automobile Car: > > #301 Southern 149703 Box Car Red > > #302 D&RGW 65530 Box Car Red > > #303 GN (Billboard) 3506 Caboose Red > > > 40' Refrigerator Car: > > #403 NP 92663 Reefer Orange > > #404 SP-UP (PFE) Reefer Orange > > #405 SP-UP (PFE) 71117 Reefer Orange > > #407 C&NW (Northwestern) 1039 Reefer Grey > > #408 GB&W (Green Bay) 9227 Reefer Grey > > #409 MDT (NYC) 22250 White > > #410 ATSF (Super Chief) 24375 Reefer Orange > > #410 ATSF (Grand Canyon) 26079 Reefer Orange > > #411 ART (Wab/MoPac) 22654, 22763 Reefer Yellow > > #412 Swift 7386 Caboose Red > > #413 Oscar Meyer 5003 Reefer Yellow > > #414 CB&Q (Zephyr) 75210 Reefer Yellow > > #415 C&NW (Mechanical Temp.) 3953 Yellow/Dk Green > > #416 UP-SP (PFE) 30127, 30130 Reefer Orange > > #417 Morrell 9206 Reefer Yellow > > #418 PFE (Ice Service) 65005, 65009 Reefer Orange > > #419 C&NW Reefer Grey > > #420 BAR (Maine Potato) 6535 White/Lt Blue > > #421 MDT (NYC) 22250 White > > > _______________O_________________ > > More to come, Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Chuck, I'm sending just the complete Pacific HO with this post. > > There is no prefix number -- only Walthers used a prefix number for > > Silver Streak, for their inventory of this manufacturer. > > > > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > > > Regular Caboose: > > > > Kit # Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color > > > > #103 Undec. 28' None Caboose Red > > > > #104 Undec. 30' None Caboose Red > > > > #110 SP 30' Caboose Red > > > > #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer Yellow > > > > #112 B&O 28' Caboose Red > > > > #113 GN 24' Caboose Red > > > > #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver > > > > #116 SP (Bay Window) Tuscan Red > > > > #117 Undec. (Bay Window) Tuscan Red > > > > #118 PC - Pacific Electric (No Cupola) Caboose Red > > > > #119 Undec. (No Cupola) Caboose Red > > > > > > Truss Rod Caboose: > > > > #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 Caboose Red > > > > #121 Undec. (Truss Rod) Caboose Red > > > > > > > ___________________O___________________ > > > > > > More To Come --- Ray > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. Also > > take a look > > > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of Chuck Higdon > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: > Unusual > > > Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some > you > > > already have, after first going with that information; at least > you > > > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do > > > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I > > agree, > > > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more > > > work to have to type each color in though. > > > > > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > > > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, > > > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group > > (Cabooses, > > > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of > Walthers > > > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do > the > > > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be > best > > to > > > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier > (929) > > > production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, > and > > > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > > > > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are > > > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, > > then > > > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to > > > make). > > > > > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second > paragraph, > > > which I think might be even better, would be to first list all > the > > > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production > remakes > > of > > > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to > > make > > > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the > NEW > > > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then > > > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > > > > > For instance: > > > > > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > > > > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > > > > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > > > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, > > in "chronological" > > > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when > > > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you > > > think. Ray > > > > > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut > > > short > > > > to 2183. > > > > > > > _._,___ > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4850	From: erieberk	Date: 1/9/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Chuck, I was wondering who Eric was since I don't see any emails by anyone with that name. But as I see you're replying to my post, it just dawned on me that perhaps you're trying to use my User name (erieberk) but got it wrong(?)- LOL. If so, its not eric, its erie (as in ERIE RR), with berk (short for Berkshire), referring to their famous 2-8-4's of the time. Glad to see you're not wasting too much time on these revisions. Great to have short cuts to make things easier. Happy railroading! Later, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Eric, > > The bigger file took about ten minutes to whip around. So I am just setting > it up to delete what needs to go and revise what needs to be revised. I > know a few short cuts that make it easy to work with these files. I will be > model railroading soon tonight, so more soon. > > Take care. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:14 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Chuck, Okay, I've just checked out your latest draft. Although I > know you're eager to get something out, in looking it over I think it > might be best to wait until getting my whole input before making > corrections. For starters, NONE of the 4-Wheel Bobber Cabooses were > original Pacific HO production, but don't change that yet (please > wait until you get everything). The other thing is that almost all > of your Walthers 929 kit numbers are NOT 929 kit numbers. Of the > remaining 929 kit numbers you have which are actual 929 kit numbers, > none of the road names for these 929 kits numbers are correct. I > also note that you have the 729 Hart Gondolas listed right after the > Pacific HO Bobber Caboose (which can be eliminated for Pacific HO) > listing instead of having them at the end after the 929 listings, but > maybe you were just waiting for more data before moving them around > (?). Sorry to have to put you through all the extra work, but > perhaps you should have waited for my complete listings after all, as > it may be less confusing that way. > > Oh, I guess you can eliminate the Note on your line 147 about the PH > Catalog #'s (PH#__), and the Walthers Catalog #'s (792#__), unless > you want to include the Walthers 929, with an explanation as to which > ones came first and also which 929's are Pacific HO re-do's, but I > don't think that's necessary if you have the full headings for these > four groups as I suggested. We can also do away with the Notes on > your pages 149 & 151 about the car colors since you're including them > all with every car. I'll start from scratch, first with all the > Pacific HO numbers (only), hopefully later today, then go to Walthers > 929 re-makes of Pacific HO and then to all the Walthers 929 new kits > (that were never produced by Pacific HO). Best regards, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. Also > take a look > > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of Chuck Higdon > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual > > Athearn? > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you > > already have, after first going with that information; at least you > > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do > > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I > agree, > > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more > > work to have to type each color in though. > > > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, > > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group > (Cabooses, > > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers > > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the > > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best > to > > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) > > production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and > > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are > > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, > then > > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to > > make). > > > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, > > which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the > > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes > of > > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to > make > > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW > > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then > > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > > > For instance: > > > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, > in "chronological" > > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when > > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you > > think. Ray > > > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut > > short > > > to 2183. > > > > > _._,___ > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4851	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

Gerold, Glenn, Just wanted to mention that around that same time I picked up an abbreviated/condensed version of Richard Wright's Daylight book which, depending on the informationa one might be looking for, was still extremely well done and well worth the much lower price tag of $5.00 in 1979. The softcover commemorative book (52 PACKED pages) on the #4449 was titled "America's Bicentennial Queen" and was available through Walthers in the late 1970's - early '80's. Its loaded with lots of diagrams and specs. Might be worth an eBay search. Also, for any SP modeler, Richard Wright published another book (171 pages)on the SP that was available from Walthers, an "SP Equipment Cicular," for $7.50. It showed all kinds of equipment for the Overland, Shasta, San Joaquin, Coastline, Sunset, Golden State, Northwestern Pacific, San Diego & Arizona Eastern and SP de Mexico routes. BTW, I just wanted to mention I have a number of Dick Wright's MHP Daylight kits and they're extremely well designed. I don't have the articulated diner (201" Diner - Lounge - Dormitory)though, so can't help too much except to say that the 2 end sections were equal length with the center section being much shorter. I'm surprised it wasn't offered as a set. For the missing section, you might want to try an eBay search for Limited Editions which also offered many similar kits back in the early to mid 1980's. They also had 77' Parlor Observation and a 77' Diner Lounge Observation for the 1937 - 38 Daylight as well as a 79' Parlor Observation for the 1939 - 41 Coast Daylight, if you need one (and can find one). Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Here Goes: Originally "Boxcar Ken" Casford (Caswell?) made a whole series > of DP cars in O Scale, using the construction you describe. A nice feature > was the way the roof was formed to keep the top of the side in place. Dick > Wright got together with him and produced the same cars in HO. > > Wright also got access to the SP archives, and wrote THE definitive book on > the Daylights. It has been said that with this book and $20 million, one > could build a complete replica of the train. The info in the book gets down > to the lettering on the restroom doors. It is available from Daylight Sales > in Sacramento. (For $125, last I heard. One printing went for $175-- my > "first edition" was what I thought was an outrageous $30). > > Do the cars you have have vestibules at the end which has the complete > skirting (as opposed to cut away for the articulation joint)? If so, you > have an articulated coach pair. The Diner and Coffee Shop did not have > vestibules, in which case you are missing the Kitchen. > > If you don't have a copy of Wright's book available, if you would like to > copy your sides and mail them to me, I can compare them to the plans in the > book. If youi are able to scan them--fine--I haven't figured that out--or > send the copies (just lay them on the glass and close the cover) to me and > I'll email back what they are. Don't forget to include your email address. > > Glenn Joesten > 3825 Pruett Drive > Yreka CA 96097 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 2:37 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] MHP / Wright Enterprise > > > > > > Just received two corrugated SP cars which might have been the #1 and #3 > > parts of an three unit articulated diner ... painted Daylight, with > > silver stripes applied seperatedly, wood roof and floor, sides are metal > > - most likely tinplate , when I scratch the inside its silver colored. > > Box says MHP/ Southern Pacific "Daylight"/ 201' Articulated Diner, > > WE-50004-C / Wright Enterprises, Thousand Oaks, Calif, USA / H0 Scale > > Equipment / Corrugated Sides. > > > > Dave Coscias SP site mentions this company but has no background info. I > > foolisly missed the other three cars on auction.... > > > > Anybody with more info on MHP / Wright? > > > > Thanks Gerold > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4852	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 1:35 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise > Gerold, Glenn, Just wanted to mention that around that same time I > picked up an abbreviated/condensed version of Richard Wright's > Daylight book which, depending on the informationa one might be > looking for, was still extremely well done and well worth the much > lower price tag of $5.00 in 1979. The softcover commemorative book > (52 PACKED pages) on the #4449 was titled "America's Bicentennial > Queen" and was available through Walthers in the late 1970's - > early '80's. Its loaded with lots of diagrams and specs. Might be > worth an eBay search. Also, for any SP modeler, Richard Wright > published another book (171 pages)on the SP that was available from > Walthers, an "SP Equipment Cicular," for $7.50. It showed all kinds > of equipment for the Overland, Shasta, San Joaquin, Coastline, > Sunset, Golden State, Northwestern Pacific, San Diego & Arizona > Eastern and SP de Mexico routes. > > BTW, I just wanted to mention I have a number of Dick Wright's MHP > Daylight kits and they're extremely well designed. I don't have the > articulated diner (201" Diner - Lounge - Dormitory)though, so can't > help too much except to say that the 2 end sections were equal length > with the center section being much shorter. I'm surprised it wasn't > offered as a set. For the missing section, you might want to try an > eBay search for Limited Editions which also offered many similar kits > back in the early to mid 1980's. They also had 77' Parlor > Observation and a 77' Diner Lounge Observation for the 1937 - 38 > Daylight as well as a 79' Parlor Observation for the 1939 - 41 Coast > Daylight, if you need one (and can find one). Ray Wetzel The 3 unit diner WAS sold as a set. There were actually four different sets cataloged. WE04C Daylight corrogated side WE04S Daylight smooth side WE36C Lark corrogated side WE47S Cascade smooth side. A note on the page in the '69 Walthers book says the cars came WITH trucks. The ones I have had Central Valleys, not sure if that's what was originally supplied or not. Cars were unpainted, decal sets sold separately. The Limited Editions cars are no comparison. They are extremely poorly designed and difficult to assemble, while the MHP's were very straightforward and simple. In fact, I have heard rumors that part of the problem with the limited Editions wre that there was a disput between the owner and his toolmaker that resulted in some of the tooling being deliberately sabotaged. I do know, from the couple I tried to build, (the operative word here is TRIED) that the roof and floor assemblies were two different widths, so when you tried to insert the window inserts, nothing fit together right. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4853	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Chuck, Here's the last of the Pacific HO: PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK Kit # Road Name/ Description Reporting Number Color Hart Gondola: #500 Undec. None Grey #501 NYC 616225 Box Car Red #502 NYC&StL (NKP) Black #503 SP #504 MKT "Katy" 8670 Reefer Yellow #505v Pacific Electric #506 NP Black Single Dome Tank Car #601 GATX General American Tank 1001 Silver Conoco Silver SCMX Shell Chemical 519 Silver Texaco Silver 40' Truss-Rod Refrigerator Car: #701 GN Western Fruit Express Reefer Yellow #703 CS Colorado & Southern 50053 Reefer Orange 40' Truss-Rod Box Car: #702 NP 38572 Box Car Red 40' M.O.W. Work Car: #801 Bunk Car 430 Grey #802 Commissary Car 809 Grey #803 Engineering Car 525 Grey #804 Ballast Car 383 Grey #805 Boom Car 720 Grey #806 Caboose & Supply Car 97 Grey That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't confirm) a 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you want to include it as a possible kit to look for. ______________O_______________ Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll be the same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the Walthers 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific HO's. I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not the prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first cataloged them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 ERIE for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO kits that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from the Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. In thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as the "S" will indicate the difference between them. This should save work and make it even more easier to understand. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hi Chuck, I just finished up all the rest of Pacific HO, and just as > I completed it -- and before I could send it -- I got a message that > the connection failed (got knocked off line), I have dial-up -- and > of course lost everything I just typed for the last of the Pacific HO > stuff. I guess the 'putor figured I was on too long or some d*mn > thing, and cut me off. I'll finish it up in the morning; just not up > to it right now after getting wiped out. Later Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > > > Standard 40' Box Car: > > > > Kit# Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color > > > > #201 UP (Union Pacific) 68142, 71991 Box Car > Red > > > > #207 CG (Central of Georgia) 40581, 40584 Box Car Red > > > > #208 EJ&E (Chicago Outer Belt) 60357 Dark Green > > > > #209 SA (Savanna & Atlanta) 8073 Box Car Red > > > > #210 M&StL (Minn. & St' Louis) 50468 Light Green > > > > #211 C&O 2570 Box Car Red > > > > #212 Minnesota Mining (3-M) 1043 Box Car Red > > > > #213 SLSF (Frisco) 132053 Box Car Red > > > > #214 RI (Rocket Freight) 69852 Box Car Red > > > > #215 D&RGW ("Cookie Box") 60007 > White > > > > #216 M&StL (Billboard) 54652 Caboose > Red > > > > #217 GN 73232 Box Car Red > > > > #218 GN 52069 Box Car Red > > > > #219 PE - Pacific Electric 2377 Box Car Red > > > > #220 MKT ("Katy") 170198 Reefer Yellow > > > > > > 50' DD Automobile Car: > > > > #301 Southern 149703 Box Car Red > > > > #302 D&RGW 65530 Box Car Red > > > > #303 GN (Billboard) 3506 Caboose Red > > > > > > 40' Refrigerator Car: > > > > #403 NP 92663 Reefer Orange > > > > #404 SP-UP (PFE) Reefer Orange > > > > #405 SP-UP (PFE) 71117 Reefer Orange > > > > #407 C&NW (Northwestern) 1039 Reefer Grey > > > > #408 GB&W (Green Bay) 9227 Reefer Grey > > > > #409 MDT (NYC) 22250 White > > > > #410 ATSF (Super Chief) 24375 Reefer Orange > > > > #410 ATSF (Grand Canyon) 26079 Reefer Orange > > > > #411 ART (Wab/MoPac) 22654, 22763 Reefer Yellow > > > > #412 Swift 7386 Caboose Red > > > > #413 Oscar Meyer 5003 Reefer > Yellow > > > > #414 CB&Q (Zephyr) 75210 Reefer Yellow > > > > #415 C&NW (Mechanical Temp.) 3953 Yellow/Dk > Green > > > > #416 UP-SP (PFE) 30127, 30130 Reefer > Orange > > > > #417 Morrell 9206 Reefer > Yellow > > > > #418 PFE (Ice Service) 65005, 65009 Reefer > Orange > > > > #419 C&NW Reefer Grey > > > > #420 BAR (Maine Potato) 6535 White/Lt Blue > > > > #421 MDT (NYC) 22250 White > > > > > > _______________O_________________ > > > > More to come, Ray > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > Chuck, I'm sending just the complete Pacific HO with this post. > > > There is no prefix number -- only Walthers used a prefix number > for > > > Silver Streak, for their inventory of this manufacturer. > > > > > > > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > > > > > Regular Caboose: > > > > > > Kit # Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color > > > > > > #103 Undec. 28' None Caboose Red > > > > > > #104 Undec. 30' None Caboose Red > > > > > > #110 SP 30' Caboose Red > > > > > > #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer > Yellow > > > > > > #112 B&O 28' Caboose Red > > > > > > #113 GN 24' Caboose Red > > > > > > #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver > > > > > > #116 SP (Bay Window) Tuscan Red > > > > > > #117 Undec. (Bay Window) Tuscan Red > > > > > > #118 PC - Pacific Electric (No Cupola) Caboose > Red > > > > > > #119 Undec. (No Cupola) Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > > Truss Rod Caboose: > > > > > > #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 Caboose > Red > > > > > > #121 Undec. (Truss Rod) Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________O___________________ > > > > > > > > > More To Come --- Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. > Also > > > take a look > > > > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of Chuck Higdon > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: > > Unusual > > > > Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some > > you > > > > already have, after first going with that information; at least > > you > > > > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to > do > > > > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I > > > agree, > > > > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot > more > > > > work to have to type each color in though. > > > > > > > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > > > > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 > listings, > > > > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group > > > (Cabooses, > > > > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of > > Walthers > > > > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do > > the > > > > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be > > best > > > to > > > > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier > > (929) > > > > production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, > > and > > > > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > > > > > > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are > > > > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, > > > then > > > > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued > to > > > > make). > > > > > > > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second > > paragraph, > > > > which I think might be even better, would be to first list all > > the > > > > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production > > remakes > > > of > > > > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have > to > > > make > > > > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the > > NEW > > > > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. > Then > > > > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > > > > > > > For instance: > > > > > > > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > > > > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > > > > > > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > > > > > > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > > > > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, > > > in "chronological" > > > > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately > when > > > > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you > > > > think. Ray > > > > > > > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not > cut > > > > short > > > > > to 2183. > > > > > > > > > _._,___ > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4854	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Starting now with Walthers 929-___ NEW Silver Streak production, to be run in with and be continued after the Walthers 929-S___ Pacific HO Silver Streak carry-overs (after they bought Pacific HO out). WALTHERS EARLY SILVER STREAK Standard Caboose: Kit # Road Name/Description Reporting Number Color #929-101 Undec. 28' None Box Car Red #929-102 Undec. 30' None Box Car Red #929-122 MILW (Bay Window) 0255 Silver #929-124 CB&Q Box Car Red #929-126 C&NW #929-127 C&O A-616 Truss-Rod Caboose: #929-123 ATSF (Truss Rod) Box CVar Red #929-125 SOU (Truss Rod) X-3349 Drovers & Combination Caboose: #929-131 CB&Q 3928 Box Car Red #929-132 Sierra Railroad Box Car Red #929-133 Pacific Lumber 78 4-Wheel Bobber Caboose: #929-175 Undec. None #929-176 EJ&E 30 Reefer Yellow #929-177 DL&W 508 Box Car Red #929-178 MA & PA 2005 #929-179 WM 2216 #929-180 PRR 485497 Box Car Red #929-181 NYC 17005 Box Car Red #929-182 L&NE 511 #929-183 B&O C-1775 #929-184 MILW 0478 Box Car Red #929-185 RDG 90258 #929-186 GN X-94 #929-187 SOU X 421 ______________O___________________ Here's the rest of the Walthers (NEW) early cabooses. Ray In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Chuck, Here's the last of the Pacific HO: > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > > Kit # Road Name/ Description Reporting Number Color > > Hart Gondola: > > #500 Undec. None Grey > > #501 NYC 616225 Box Car Red > > #502 NYC&StL (NKP) Black > > #503 SP > > #504 MKT "Katy" 8670 Reefer Yellow > > #505v Pacific Electric > > #506 NP Black > > > Single Dome Tank Car > > #601 GATX General American Tank 1001 Silver > > Conoco Silver > > SCMX Shell Chemical 519 Silver > > Texaco Silver > > > 40' Truss-Rod Refrigerator Car: > > #701 GN Western Fruit Express Reefer Yellow > > #703 CS Colorado & Southern 50053 Reefer Orange > > > 40' Truss-Rod Box Car: > > #702 NP 38572 Box Car Red > > > 40' M.O.W. Work Car: > > #801 Bunk Car 430 Grey > > #802 Commissary Car 809 Grey > > #803 Engineering Car 525 Grey > > #804 Ballast Car 383 Grey > > #805 Boom Car 720 Grey > > #806 Caboose & Supply Car 97 Grey > > > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't confirm) a > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you want to > include it as a possible kit to look for. > > ______________O_______________ > > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll be the > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the Walthers > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific HO's. > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not the > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first cataloged > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 ERIE > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO kits > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from the > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. In > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as the "S" will > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and > make it even more easier to understand. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Hi Chuck, I just finished up all the rest of Pacific HO, and just > as > > I completed it -- and before I could send it -- I got a message > that > > the connection failed (got knocked off line), I have dial-up -- > and > > of course lost everything I just typed for the last of the Pacific > HO > > stuff. I guess the 'putor figured I was on too long or some d*mn > > thing, and cut me off. I'll finish it up in the morning; just not > up > > to it right now after getting wiped out. Later Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > > > > > Standard 40' Box Car: > > > > > > Kit# Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color > > > > > > #201 UP (Union Pacific) 68142, 71991 Box Car > > Red > > > > > > #207 CG (Central of Georgia) 40581, 40584 Box Car Red > > > > > > #208 EJ&E (Chicago Outer Belt) 60357 Dark Green > > > > > > #209 SA (Savanna & Atlanta) 8073 Box Car Red > > > > > > #210 M&StL (Minn. & St' Louis) 50468 Light Green > > > > > > #211 C&O 2570 Box Car Red > > > > > > #212 Minnesota Mining (3-M) 1043 Box Car > Red > > > > > > #213 SLSF (Frisco) 132053 Box Car Red > > > > > > #214 RI (Rocket Freight) 69852 Box Car Red > > > > > > #215 D&RGW ("Cookie Box") 60007 > > White > > > > > > #216 M&StL (Billboard) 54652 Caboose > > Red > > > > > > #217 GN 73232 Box Car Red > > > > > > #218 GN 52069 Box Car Red > > > > > > #219 PE - Pacific Electric 2377 Box Car Red > > > > > > #220 MKT ("Katy") 170198 Reefer > Yellow > > > > > > > > > 50' DD Automobile Car: > > > > > > #301 Southern 149703 Box Car Red > > > > > > #302 D&RGW 65530 Box Car Red > > > > > > #303 GN (Billboard) 3506 Caboose Red > > > > > > > > > 40' Refrigerator Car: > > > > > > #403 NP 92663 Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #404 SP-UP (PFE) Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #405 SP-UP (PFE) 71117 Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #407 C&NW (Northwestern) 1039 Reefer Grey > > > > > > #408 GB&W (Green Bay) 9227 Reefer Grey > > > > > > #409 MDT (NYC) 22250 White > > > > > > #410 ATSF (Super Chief) 24375 Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #410 ATSF (Grand Canyon) 26079 Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #411 ART (Wab/MoPac) 22654, 22763 Reefer > Yellow > > > > > > #412 Swift 7386 Caboose Red > > > > > > #413 Oscar Meyer 5003 Reefer > > Yellow > > > > > > #414 CB&Q (Zephyr) 75210 Reefer > Yellow > > > > > > #415 C&NW (Mechanical Temp.) 3953 Yellow/Dk > > Green > > > > > > #416 UP-SP (PFE) 30127, 30130 Reefer > > Orange > > > > > > #417 Morrell 9206 Reefer > > Yellow > > > > > > #418 PFE (Ice Service) 65005, 65009 Reefer > > Orange > > > > > > #419 C&NW Reefer Grey > > > > > > #420 BAR (Maine Potato) 6535 White/Lt > Blue > > > > > > #421 MDT (NYC) 22250 White > > > > > > > > > _______________O_________________ > > > > > > More to come, Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Chuck, I'm sending just the complete Pacific HO with this > post. > > > > There is no prefix number -- only Walthers used a prefix number > > for > > > > Silver Streak, for their inventory of this manufacturer. > > > > > > > > > > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > > > > > > > Regular Caboose: > > > > > > > > Kit # Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color > > > > > > > > #103 Undec. 28' None Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #104 Undec. 30' None Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #110 SP 30' Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer > > Yellow > > > > > > > > #112 B&O 28' Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #113 GN 24' Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver > > > > > > > > #116 SP (Bay Window) Tuscan > Red > > > > > > > > #117 Undec. (Bay Window) Tuscan > Red > > > > > > > > #118 PC - Pacific Electric (No Cupola) Caboose > > Red > > > > > > > > #119 Undec. (No Cupola) Caboose > > Red > > > > > > > > > > > > Truss Rod Caboose: > > > > > > > > #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 Caboose > > Red > > > > > > > > #121 Undec. (Truss Rod) Caboose > > Red > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________O___________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > More To Come --- Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. > > Also > > > > take a look > > > > > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > > > On Behalf > > > > > Of Chuck Higdon > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > > > > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > > > On Behalf > > > > > Of erieberk > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: > > > Unusual > > > > > Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to > some > > > you > > > > > already have, after first going with that information; at > least > > > you > > > > > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to > > do > > > > > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I > > > > agree, > > > > > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot > > more > > > > > work to have to type each color in though. > > > > > > > > > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > > > > > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 > > listings, > > > > > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group > > > > (Cabooses, > > > > > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of > > > Walthers > > > > > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also > do > > > the > > > > > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be > > > best > > > > to > > > > > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier > > > (929) > > > > > production, even though this prefix number is higher than > 792, > > > and > > > > > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > > > > > > > > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's > are > > > > > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit > number, > > > > then > > > > > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they > continued > > to > > > > > make). > > > > > > > > > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second > > > paragraph, > > > > > which I think might be even better, would be to first list > all > > > the > > > > > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production > > > remakes > > > > of > > > > > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have > > to > > > > make > > > > > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all > the > > > NEW > > > > > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. > > Then > > > > > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > > > > > > > > > For instance: > > > > > > > > > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > > > > > > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > > > > > > > > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > > > > > > > > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > > > > > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, > > > > in "chronological" > > > > > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately > > when > > > > > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what > you > > > > > think. Ray > > > > > > > > > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not > > cut > > > > > short > > > > > > to 2183. > > > > > > > > > > > _._,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4855	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

BTW, I just wanted to mention I have a number of Dick Wright's MHP Daylight kits and they're extremely well designed. I don't have the articulated diner (201" Diner - Lounge - Dormitory)though, so can't help too much except to say that the 2 end sections were equal length with the center section being much shorter. I'm surprised it wasn't offered as a set. For the missing section, you might want to try an eBay search for Limited Editions which also offered many similar kits back in the early to mid 1980's. They also had 77' Parlor Observation and a 77' Diner Lounge Observation for the 1937 - 38 Daylight as well as a 79' Parlor Observation for the 1939 - 41 Coast Daylight, if you need one (and can find one). Ray Wetzel The 3 unit diner WAS sold as a set. There were actually four different sets cataloged. WE04C Daylight corrogated side WE04S Daylight smooth side WE36C Lark corrogated side WE47S Cascade smooth side. A note on the page in the '69 Walthers book says the cars came WITH trucks. The ones I have had Central Valleys, not sure if that's what was originally supplied or not. Cars were unpainted, decal sets sold separately. The Limited Editions cars are no comparison. They are extremely poorly designed and difficult to assemble, while the MHP's were very straightforward and simple. In fact, I have heard rumors that part of the problem with the limited Editions wre that there was a disput between the owner and his toolmaker that resulted in some of the tooling being deliberately sabotaged. I do know, from the couple I tried to build, (the operative word here is TRIED) that the roof and floor assemblies were two different widths, so when you tried to insert the window inserts, nothing fit together right. Hi Ray, Hi Don, I have sent a message containing scans of my two end cars this morning, apparently it did not go through as I didnt find it in the message folder. Will try again. The cars that I got, and those which were auctioned off last weekend, had Micro Motive trucks. I consider to replace them with D&G trucks as I did with my Soho cars. I am curious how the MHP Lark three unit diner might have looked like, I understand it had the kitchen car at the end and not in the middle like the Daylight versions. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4856	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

Attachments : I ty to send my lost message from earlier today once again. Its out of sequence now... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Don, Glenn, Thanks for all the info. I put the book on my wish list ! - Have scanned the sides ( complete cars) , I am quite sure this was a triple unit diner as cars are marked "Coffee Shop" and "Diner", and they both have no vestibules... window arrangement is identical on both sides and does not match my prototype pictures but I have no as-built pictures, only from later years when they were already rebuilt. Maybe windows would be correct for the initial configuration. Anyway this are great models, in some respects better than the old Soho SP cars. My email address is corv8@... Thanks again, Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4857	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Continuing on -- Walthers NEW Box cars, etc. WALTHERS NEW EARLY SILVER STREAK 40' Standard Box Car: Kit # Road Name/Description Reporting Number Color #929-221 T&P 50496 Box Car Red #929-222 PM 85100 Box Car Red #929-223 D&RGW 68847 Box Car Red #929-224 P&LE (NYC) 34257 Box Car Red #929-225 SLG&W (Saltair) 100 Green #929-226 SLSW (St. Louis S'Western) 37502 Box Car Red #929-299 WKWX Walthers Commemorative 5601 Yellow 36' WS Box Car: #929-228 C&O 86438 Box Car Red #929-229 D&H 23692 Box Car Red #929-230 NYC&StL (NKP) 61407 Box Car Red #929-231 NYNH&H 44253 Box Car Red #929-232 Piedmont & Northern 17073 Box Car Red #929-233 TH&B 3524 50' Standard Automobile Box Car; #929-351 CRI&P 231397 #929-352 ATSF 3756 #929-353 UP (Overland) #929-354 MILW #929-355 WAB #929-356 SP (T&NO) 40' Refrigerator Car: #929-400 Undec. None Reefer Orange #929-419 C&NW Reefer Yellow #929-422 ATSF (Chief) 25963 Reefer Orange #929-423 ATSF (Super Chief) 26154 Reefer Orange #929-424 ATSF (El Capitan) 26133 Reefer Orange #929-425 ATSF (Scout) 26048 Reefer Orange #929-426 ATSF (Texas Chief) 26236 Reefer Orange #929-427 ATSF (San Francisco Chief) 26288 Reefer Orange #929-428 C&NW 4247 Reefer Yellow #929-429 QREX Grand Union 90104 Green #929-430 NADX Baby Ruth 4511 Reefer Yellow #929-431 WWDX Westcott & Winks 1047 Reefer Yellow #929-432 URT Edelweiss 18301 Reefer Yellow #929-433 SP-UP (PFE) Overland 71407 Reefer Orange #929-450 Undec. None Reefer Yellow Hart Gondola: #929-507 D&RGW Black #929-508 C&NW Box Car Red #929-509 WEP 1103 #929-510 MC (NYC) Mich. Cent. Box Car Red #929-511 HV Hocking Valley Box Car Red 40' Truss Rod Refrigerator Car: #929-700 Undec. (Truss-Rod) None Reefer Orange 40' Truss Rod Box Car: #929-900 Undec. (Truss-Rod) None Box Car Red _______________O_______________ That about does it for Walthers 929, as far as I have info on them. Again, any additions or corrections are welcome. You can add what you have on the Walthers 729 below these listings as a separate Walthers Later Silver Streak category and that should round it out. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Chuck, Here's the last of the Pacific HO: > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > > Kit # Road Name/ Description Reporting Number Color > > Hart Gondola: > > #500 Undec. None Grey > > #501 NYC 616225 Box Car Red > > #502 NYC&StL (NKP) Black > > #503 SP > > #504 MKT "Katy" 8670 Reefer Yellow > > #505v Pacific Electric > > #506 NP Black > > > Single Dome Tank Car > > #601 GATX General American Tank 1001 Silver > > Conoco Silver > > SCMX Shell Chemical 519 Silver > > Texaco Silver > > > 40' Truss-Rod Refrigerator Car: > > #701 GN Western Fruit Express Reefer Yellow > > #703 CS Colorado & Southern 50053 Reefer Orange > > > 40' Truss-Rod Box Car: > > #702 NP 38572 Box Car Red > > > 40' M.O.W. Work Car: > > #801 Bunk Car 430 Grey > > #802 Commissary Car 809 Grey > > #803 Engineering Car 525 Grey > > #804 Ballast Car 383 Grey > > #805 Boom Car 720 Grey > > #806 Caboose & Supply Car 97 Grey > > > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't confirm) a > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you want to > include it as a possible kit to look for. > > ______________O_______________ > > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll be the > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the Walthers > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific HO's. > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not the > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first cataloged > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 ERIE > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO kits > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from the > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. In > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as the "S" will > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and > make it even more easier to understand. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Hi Chuck, I just finished up all the rest of Pacific HO, and just > as > > I completed it -- and before I could send it -- I got a message > that > > the connection failed (got knocked off line), I have dial-up -- > and > > of course lost everything I just typed for the last of the Pacific > HO > > stuff. I guess the 'putor figured I was on too long or some d*mn > > thing, and cut me off. I'll finish it up in the morning; just not > up > > to it right now after getting wiped out. Later Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > > > > > Standard 40' Box Car: > > > > > > Kit# Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color > > > > > > #201 UP (Union Pacific) 68142, 71991 Box Car > > Red > > > > > > #207 CG (Central of Georgia) 40581, 40584 Box Car Red > > > > > > #208 EJ&E (Chicago Outer Belt) 60357 Dark Green > > > > > > #209 SA (Savanna & Atlanta) 8073 Box Car Red > > > > > > #210 M&StL (Minn. & St' Louis) 50468 Light Green > > > > > > #211 C&O 2570 Box Car Red > > > > > > #212 Minnesota Mining (3-M) 1043 Box Car > Red > > > > > > #213 SLSF (Frisco) 132053 Box Car Red > > > > > > #214 RI (Rocket Freight) 69852 Box Car Red > > > > > > #215 D&RGW ("Cookie Box") 60007 > > White > > > > > > #216 M&StL (Billboard) 54652 Caboose > > Red > > > > > > #217 GN 73232 Box Car Red > > > > > > #218 GN 52069 Box Car Red > > > > > > #219 PE - Pacific Electric 2377 Box Car Red > > > > > > #220 MKT ("Katy") 170198 Reefer > Yellow > > > > > > > > > 50' DD Automobile Car: > > > > > > #301 Southern 149703 Box Car Red > > > > > > #302 D&RGW 65530 Box Car Red > > > > > > #303 GN (Billboard) 3506 Caboose Red > > > > > > > > > 40' Refrigerator Car: > > > > > > #403 NP 92663 Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #404 SP-UP (PFE) Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #405 SP-UP (PFE) 71117 Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #407 C&NW (Northwestern) 1039 Reefer Grey > > > > > > #408 GB&W (Green Bay) 9227 Reefer Grey > > > > > > #409 MDT (NYC) 22250 White > > > > > > #410 ATSF (Super Chief) 24375 Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #410 ATSF (Grand Canyon) 26079 Reefer > Orange > > > > > > #411 ART (Wab/MoPac) 22654, 22763 Reefer > Yellow > > > > > > #412 Swift 7386 Caboose Red > > > > > > #413 Oscar Meyer 5003 Reefer > > Yellow > > > > > > #414 CB&Q (Zephyr) 75210 Reefer > Yellow > > > > > > #415 C&NW (Mechanical Temp.) 3953 Yellow/Dk > > Green > > > > > > #416 UP-SP (PFE) 30127, 30130 Reefer > > Orange > > > > > > #417 Morrell 9206 Reefer > > Yellow > > > > > > #418 PFE (Ice Service) 65005, 65009 Reefer > > Orange > > > > > > #419 C&NW Reefer Grey > > > > > > #420 BAR (Maine Potato) 6535 White/Lt > Blue > > > > > > #421 MDT (NYC) 22250 White > > > > > > > > > _______________O_________________ > > > > > > More to come, Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Chuck, I'm sending just the complete Pacific HO with this > post. > > > > There is no prefix number -- only Walthers used a prefix number > > for > > > > Silver Streak, for their inventory of this manufacturer. > > > > > > > > > > > > PACIFIC HO -- ORIGINAL SILVER STREAK > > > > > > > > Regular Caboose: > > > > > > > > Kit # Road Name - Description Reporting Number Color > > > > > > > > #103 Undec. 28' None Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #104 Undec. 30' None Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #110 SP 30' Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #111 UP 30' 301 Reefer > > Yellow > > > > > > > > #112 B&O 28' Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #113 GN 24' Caboose > Red > > > > > > > > #115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' 2183 Silver > > > > > > > > #116 SP (Bay Window) Tuscan > Red > > > > > > > > #117 Undec. (Bay Window) Tuscan > Red > > > > > > > > #118 PC - Pacific Electric (No Cupola) Caboose > > Red > > > > > > > > #119 Undec. (No Cupola) Caboose > > Red > > > > > > > > > > > > Truss Rod Caboose: > > > > > > > > #120 ERIE (Truss Rod) 04956 Caboose > > Red > > > > > > > > #121 Undec. (Truss Rod) Caboose > > Red > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________O___________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > More To Come --- Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. > > Also > > > > take a look > > > > > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > > > On Behalf > > > > > Of Chuck Higdon > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > > > > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > > > On Behalf > > > > > Of erieberk > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: > > > Unusual > > > > > Athearn? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to > some > > > you > > > > > already have, after first going with that information; at > least > > > you > > > > > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to > > do > > > > > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I > > > > agree, > > > > > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot > > more > > > > > work to have to type each color in though. > > > > > > > > > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > > > > > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 > > listings, > > > > > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group > > > > (Cabooses, > > > > > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of > > > Walthers > > > > > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also > do > > > the > > > > > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be > > > best > > > > to > > > > > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier > > > (929) > > > > > production, even though this prefix number is higher than > 792, > > > and > > > > > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > > > > > > > > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's > are > > > > > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit > number, > > > > then > > > > > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they > continued > > to > > > > > make). > > > > > > > > > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second > > > paragraph, > > > > > which I think might be even better, would be to first list > all > > > the > > > > > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production > > > remakes > > > > of > > > > > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have > > to > > > > make > > > > > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all > the > > > NEW > > > > > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. > > Then > > > > > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > > > > > > > > > For instance: > > > > > > > > > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > > > > > > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > > > > > > > > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > > > > > > > > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > > > > > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, > > > > in "chronological" > > > > > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately > > when > > > > > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what > you > > > > > think. Ray > > > > > > > > > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not > > cut > > > > > short > > > > > > to 2183. > > > > > > > > > > > _._,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4858	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

Gerold, Yes, you're absolutely right in what you've come to understand, the MHP Lark articulated Diner has the kitchen car section at the end (not in the middle, as does the Daylight) as is illustrated in the Walthers 1969 Catalog on page 30. Naturally, the Lark Diner is longer than the Daylight Diner, as the configuration of the three sections are the same for both trains -- a longer section on either end with a short section in the center. Ray W. -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > Hi Ray, Hi Don, > > I have sent a message containing scans of my two end cars this morning, > apparently it did not go through as I didnt find it in the message > folder. Will try again. > The cars that I got, and those which were auctioned off last weekend, > had Micro Motive trucks. I consider to replace them with D&G trucks as I > did with my Soho cars. > I am curious how the MHP Lark three unit diner might have looked like, I > understand it had the kitchen car at the end and not in the middle like > the Daylight versions. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4859	From: erieberk	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

Hi Don, Yes, thanks, I am aware that all the (Cascade, Daylight and Lark) MHP articulated Diners were sold as 3-piece sets from Wright Enterprises/Walthers, which was why I was surprised that Gerold's diner units were missing a section and weren't offered as a set when he bought them. I don't know whether mine came with trucks or not; I've never opened them -- yet I have a United/PFM GS-4 I could operate with them (LOL) -- I just never was able to get many of them, or enough to make a train, so I use my Blue Line and American Beauty cars instead. Thanks for cluing me in on those Limited Editions. At one time, I was thinking of getting some -- there were even a bunch on eBay last year I was mulling over about bidding on. Never knew they were that bad though; I know enough to stay away from them now. Oh BTW, in case you were wondering what I was talking about when I brought up about Dick Wright's other (171 page) book, on the SP Equipment, the rest of the title is a "Circular" (not a Cicular) -- might make more sense now. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 1:35 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise > > > > > BTW, I just wanted to mention I have a number of Dick Wright's MHP > > Daylight kits and they're extremely well designed. I don't have the > > articulated diner (201' Diner - Lounge - Dormitory) though, so can't > > help too much except to say that the 2 end sections were equal length > > with the center section being much shorter. I'm surprised it wasn't > > offered as a set. For the missing section, you might want to try an > > eBay search for Limited Editions which also offered many similar kits > > back in the early to mid 1980's. They also had 77' Parlor > > Observation and a 77' Diner Lounge Observation for the 1937 - 38 > > Daylight as well as a 79' Parlor Observation for the 1939 - 41 Coast > > Daylight, if you need one (and can find one). Ray Wetzel > > The 3 unit diner WAS sold as a set. There were actually four different sets > cataloged. > > WE04C Daylight corrogated side > WE04S Daylight smooth side > WE36C Lark corrogated side > WE47S Cascade smooth side. > > A note on the page in the '69 Walthers book says the cars came WITH trucks. > The ones I have had Central Valleys, not sure if that's what was originally > supplied or not. Cars were unpainted, decal sets sold separately. > > The Limited Editions cars are no comparison. They are extremely poorly > designed and difficult to assemble, while the MHP's were very > straightforward and simple. In fact, I have heard rumors that part of the > problem with the limited Editions wre that there was a disput between the > owner and his toolmaker that resulted in some of the tooling being > deliberately sabotaged. I do know, from the couple I tried to build, (the > operative word here is TRIED) that the roof and floor assemblies were two > different widths, so when you tried to insert the window inserts, nothing > fit together right. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4860	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

The Cascade and Lark both have the kitchen at the end.  The center section appears to be the diner, the OTHER end looks very similar to the non articulated tavern cars (but fewer windows).   My scanner isn't working, I tried to photograph the page but it didn't turn out.  If anyone has Walthers' catalogs from 1969,1970 or 1971 that can scan the pages and post them that'd be great.  The catalog doesn't show pictures, it just gives line drawings, but it does show you the window arrangements of the various cars.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise BTW, I just wanted to mention I have a number of Dick Wright's MHP Daylight kits and they're extremely well designed. I don't have the articulated diner (201" Diner - Lounge - Dormitory)though, so can't help too much except to say that the 2 end sections were equal length with the center section being much shorter. I'm surprised it wasn't offered as a set. For the missing section, you might want to try an eBay search for Limited Editions which also offered many similar kits back in the early to mid 1980's. They also had 77' Parlor Observation and a 77' Diner Lounge Observation for the 1937 - 38 Daylight as well as a 79' Parlor Observation for the 1939 - 41 Coast Daylight, if you need one (and can find one). Ray Wetzel The 3 unit diner WAS sold as a set. There were actually four different sets cataloged. WE04C Daylight corrogated side WE04S Daylight smooth side WE36C Lark corrogated side WE47S Cascade smooth side. A note on the page in the '69 Walthers book says the cars came WITH trucks. The ones I have had Central Valleys, not sure if that's what was originally supplied or not. Cars were unpainted, decal sets sold separately. The Limited Editions cars are no comparison. They are extremely poorly designed and difficult to assemble, while the MHP's were very straightforward and simple. In fact, I have heard rumors that part of the problem with the limited Editions wre that there was a disput between the owner and his toolmaker that resulted in some of the tooling being deliberately sabotaged. I do know, from the couple I tried to build, (the operative word here is TRIED) that the roof and floor assemblies were two different widths, so when you tried to insert the window inserts, nothing fit together right. Hi Ray, Hi Don, I have sent a message containing scans of my two end cars this morning, apparently it did not go through as I didnt find it in the message folder. Will try again. The cars that I got, and those which were auctioned off last weekend, had Micro Motive trucks. I consider to replace them with D&G trucks as I did with my Soho cars. I am curious how the MHP Lark three unit diner might have looked like, I understand it had the kitchen car at the end and not in the middle like the Daylight versions. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4861	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

I seem to recall the Lark's diner being a different configuration--based on one trip--a friend and I rode a commute into San Francisco one Saturday morning--managed to get to ride the Lark as they turned it.  I seem to recall the lark's diner having the Kitchen at the front followed by two dining room sections.  The Lark, being an all-Pullman train, might not have had much of a "Coffee Shop" clientele.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise BTW, I just wanted to mention I have a number of Dick Wright's MHP Daylight kits and they're extremely well designed. I don't have the articulated diner (201" Diner - Lounge - Dormitory)though, so can't help too much except to say that the 2 end sections were equal length with the center section being much shorter. I'm surprised it wasn't offered as a set. For the missing section, you might want to try an eBay search for Limited Editions which also offered many similar kits back in the early to mid 1980's. They also had 77' Parlor Observation and a 77' Diner Lounge Observation for the 1937 - 38 Daylight as well as a 79' Parlor Observation for the 1939 - 41 Coast Daylight, if you need one (and can find one). Ray Wetzel The 3 unit diner WAS sold as a set. There were actually four different sets cataloged. WE04C Daylight corrogated side WE04S Daylight smooth side WE36C Lark corrogated side WE47S Cascade smooth side. A note on the page in the '69 Walthers book says the cars came WITH trucks. The ones I have had Central Valleys, not sure if that's what was originally supplied or not. Cars were unpainted, decal sets sold separately. The Limited Editions cars are no comparison. They are extremely poorly designed and difficult to assemble, while the MHP's were very straightforward and simple. In fact, I have heard rumors that part of the problem with the limited Editions wre that there was a disput between the owner and his toolmaker that resulted in some of the tooling being deliberately sabotaged. I do know, from the couple I tried to build, (the operative word here is TRIED) that the roof and floor assemblies were two different widths, so when you tried to insert the window inserts, nothing fit together right. Hi Ray, Hi Don, I have sent a message containing scans of my two end cars this morning, apparently it did not go through as I didnt find it in the message folder. Will try again. The cars that I got, and those which were auctioned off last weekend, had Micro Motive trucks. I consider to replace them with D&G trucks as I did with my Soho cars. I am curious how the MHP Lark three unit diner might have looked like, I understand it had the kitchen car at the end and not in the middle like the Daylight versions. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4862	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

Are both sides of each car the same? The Coffee Shop had that wide space to allow for a coffee urn and service station at mid-car. End units were 70 ft each, the center, kitchen unit was 57 ft. Windows were long, narrow, and high on the side, just below the letterboard. There was a pantry at each end, with the kitchen in the middle. There were at least four different classed of articulated diner sets. Have fun with the train. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise >I ty to send my lost message from earlier today once again. Its out of > sequence now... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Don, Glenn, > > > > Thanks for all the info. I put the book on my wish list ! - Have > > scanned the sides ( complete cars) , I am quite sure this was a triple > > unit diner as cars are marked "Coffee Shop" and "Diner", and they both > > have no vestibules... window arrangement is identical on both sides and > > does not match my prototype pictures but I have no as-built pictures, > > only from later years when they were already rebuilt. Maybe windows > > would be correct for the initial configuration. Anyway this are great > > models, in some respects better than the old Soho SP cars. > > > > My email address is corv8@... > > > > Thanks again, Gerold > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4863	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Ray, I do not know either.  Guess my mind was else where.  We even ran some EL last night. Take care.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 9:38 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Chuck, I was wondering who Eric was since I don't see any emails by anyone with that name. But as I see you're replying to my post, it just dawned on me that perhaps you're trying to use my User name (erieberk) but got it wrong(?)- LOL. If so, its not eric, its erie (as in ERIE RR), with berk (short for Berkshire ), referring to their famous 2-8-4's of the time. Glad to see you're not wasting too much time on these revisions. Great to have short cuts to make things easier. Happy railroading! Later, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Eric, > > The bigger file took about ten minutes to whip around. So I am just setting > it up to delete what needs to go and revise what needs to be revised. I > know a few short cuts that make it easy to work with these files. I will be > model railroading soon tonight, so more soon. > > Take care. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:14 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Chuck, Okay, I've just checked out your latest draft. Although I > know you're eager to get something out, in looking it over I think it > might be best to wait until getting my whole input before making > corrections. For starters, NONE of the 4-Wheel Bobber Cabooses were > original Pacific HO production, but don't change that yet (please > wait until you get everything). The other thing is that almost all > of your Walthers 929 kit numbers are NOT 929 kit numbers. Of the > remaining 929 kit numbers you have which are actual 929 kit numbers, > none of the road names for these 929 kits numbers are correct. I > also note that you have the 729 Hart Gondolas listed right after the > Pacific HO Bobber Caboose (which can be eliminated for Pacific HO) > listing instead of having them at the end after the 929 listings, but > maybe you were just waiting for more data before moving them around > (?). Sorry to have to put you through all the extra work, but > perhaps you should have waited for my complete listings after all, as > it may be less confusing that way. > > Oh, I guess you can eliminate the Note on your line 147 about the PH > Catalog #'s (PH#__), and the Walthers Catalog #'s (792#__), unless > you want to include the Walthers 929, with an explanation as to which > ones came first and also which 929's are Pacific HO re-do's, but I > don't think that's necessary if you have the full headings for these > four groups as I suggested. We can also do away with the Notes on > your pages 149 & 151 about the car colors since you're including them > all with every car. I'll start from scratch, first with all the > Pacific HO numbers (only), hopefully later today, then go to Walthers > 929 re-makes of Pacific HO and then to all the Walthers 929 new kits > (that were never produced by Pacific HO). Best regards, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > I have put a draft of the four groups in the file section. Also > take a look > > at the 1999 catalog, the caboose are separated better in it. > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. < href="http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104">http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of Chuck Higdon > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:22 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > The four groups do sound the best and will be easy to do up. > > > > > > > > Please look at 8), is it Eire or SP? > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. < href="http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104">http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:30 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual > > Athearn? > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, I see what you mean about making corrections to some you > > already have, after first going with that information; at least you > > had something to work with. I just didn't want you to have to do > > double work. Well, as long as you're filling in ALL colors, I > agree, > > you might as well remove the notations for them. It is a lot more > > work to have to type each color in though. > > > > After thinking about it some, I believe it might be more > > understandable if we were to make separate Walthers 792 listings, > > either below each of the Pacific HO listings of each group > (Cabooses, > > Box Cars, etc.), or as a complete and separate listing of Walthers > > kits after the end of all the Pacific HO. As we should also do the > > same for Walthers early production (929), I think it might be best > to > > have all the Pacific HO first, then all the Walthers earlier (929) > > production, even though this prefix number is higher than 792, and > > then do all the Walthers (792) later production. > > > > I'll go back through the cabooses and indicate which one's are > > original Pacific HO first (by just having their 3-digit number, > then > > Walthers (929) carry-overs of Pacific HO (which they continued to > > make). > > > > A variation of the listing method proposed in the second paragraph, > > which I think might be even better, would be to first list all the > > Pacific HO, then all the Walthers (929) earlier production remakes > of > > Pacific HO, separating these by followed with -- (you'll have to > make > > a notation right with these three Walthers listings) -- all the NEW > > Walthers (929) kits which were never produced by Pacific HO. Then > > finally, all of the later (792) production. > > > > For instance: > > > > Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- Pacific HO Remanufacture > > > > Walthers (929) -- Early Production -- New Production > > > > Walthers (792) -- Later Production > > > > For ease of reading, we should probably list them in these 4 > > groupings like this, one grouping after the other, > in "chronological" > > order. That would best separate them all as to approximately when > > they were produced compared to each other. Let me know what you > > think. Ray > > > > > (8) The kit #120 ERIE caboose should be numbered 02183, not cut > > short > > > to 2183. > > > > > _._,___ > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4864	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /WRIGHT 02.jpg Uploaded by : roger_aultman <raul@...> Description : WRIGHT ENTERPRISES 02 You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/WRIGHT%2002.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, roger_aultman <raul@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4865	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/10/2008
Subject: WRIGHT ENTERPRISES

Attachments : I uploaded two scans from the 1971 Walthers catalog od Wright Passenger cars, also attached. The catalog did not lay quite flat in the scanner so there is some distortion. Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4866	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/12/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Hello Ray, I now have four sections.  I have put the S in the one group and have not merged the third group with the second as you had mentioned yet.  As I review the first section along with the notes, I see that it includes some Walthers production.  So I wonder if we should add some dates to all of this.  Something like “This group used these catalog numbers from 19?? to 19 ??.”    I will update the file in the site later this weekend.   Take care.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   That about does it for Walthers 929, as far as I have info on them. Again, any additions or corrections are welcome. You can add what you have on the Walthers 729 below these listings as a separate Walthers Later Silver Streak category and that should round it out. Best, Ray Wetzel > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't confirm) a > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you want to > include it as a possible kit to look for. > > ____________ __O______ _________ > > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll be the > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the Walthers > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific HO's. > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not the > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first cataloged > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 ERIE > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO kits > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from the > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. In > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as the "S" will > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and > make it even more easier to understand. Ray > _._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4867	From: erieberk	Date: 1/12/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Hi Chuck, Looks like you're pretty well set to go on putting together the spread-sheet. Getting back to what you're saying about the first section -- Pacific HO; yes, this first section's kit numbers (original Silver Streak) were also used later by Walthers but with their 929 prefix with them. This is why we're using an "S" on those Walthers kits (along with their 929), to denote which previously Pacific HO kits Walthers continued to make. I suppose you could also include a date, even though its not completely necessary, but it would at least give the times these kit groups were made. For now, these dates will have to be approximate since I'm not sure of their exact dates. To start with, the earliest that I can find through catalogs as to when Pacific HO was first offered was 1950 (I suspect it was earlier). When Dave Spanagel was publishing "The Reporting Mark," for the HOSC&H Group (HO Scale Collectors & History) of this Special Interest Group of the NMRA back in the mid '80's - early '90's, he wrote an article on Pacific HO/Silver Streak. I've misplaced my issue containing that, but if I come across it I can fill in more exact dates. What I do have from model catalogs other than that of Pacific HO confirms that Pacific HO first produced four undec cabooses, seven 40' standard WS box cars, one 36' WS box car, one 50' auto car, sixteen 40' reefers and the four single-dome tank cars in 1950. By 1953, they added six more cabooses and three work cars. Perhaps early MR's or MRC's would yield others in their possible ads (I'll look back into that). Not having every Walthers catalog, the last I see of Pacific HO was 1971, and the first time I see Walthers 929 Silver Streak was 1973, during that time they bought out Pacific HO and offered the same kits, only. The first time I see Walthers 929 undecorated 40' standard box cars, 40' truss-rod cars, 50' Auto Cars, 40' reefers and hart gondolas was 1974. The problem with adding dates to all of Walthers new 929 production is that they spread it out over a number of years. In 1978, the added #929-176 through #929-181, and #929-422 through #929-427. Then in 1979, they added #929-123 through #929- 128, #929-228 through #929-233, #929-351 through #929-356, #929-428 through #929-433, and #929-506 through #929-511. Then in 1980 they added #929-130 through #929-133, #929-182 through #929-187, and #929- 299. I believe that's it, as things remained the same at least though the mid 1980's: I'm not sure if I left anything out. Regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hello Ray, > > I now have four sections. I have put the S in the one group and have not > merged the third group with the second as you had mentioned yet. As I > review the first section along with the notes, I see that it includes some > Walthers production. So I wonder if we should add some dates to all of > this. Something like "This group used these catalog numbers from 19?? to 19 > ??." > > > > I will update the file in the site later this weekend. > > > > Take care. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > That about does it for Walthers 929, as far as I have info on them. > Again, any additions or corrections are welcome. You can add what > you have on the Walthers 729 below these listings as a separate > Walthers Later Silver Streak category and that should round it out. > Best, Ray Wetzel > > > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't confirm) > a > > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you want > to > > include it as a possible kit to look > for. > > > > ______________O_______________ > > > > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll be > the > > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the > Walthers > > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific > HO's. > > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not the > > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first cataloged > > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 > ERIE > > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO > kits > > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from the > > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. In > > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 > > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the > > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as the "S" > will > > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and > > make it even more easier to understand. Ray > > > _._,___ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4868	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/12/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Ray, OK, maybe release dates are not the best idea.  I have loaded some and also put the file at the site.  Take a look and tell me what you think.  I put some dates in but if it just doesn’t make sense then I will go back and delete them.  I did copy the type of car for each line.  This way if the file is searched by roadname the car type comes along also. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:08 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Hi Chuck, Looks like you're pretty well set to go on putting together the spread-sheet. Getting back to what you're saying about the first section -- Pacific HO; yes, this first section's kit numbers (original Silver Streak) were also used later by Walthers but with their 929 prefix with them. This is why we're using an "S" on those Walthers kits (along with their 929), to denote which previously Pacific HO kits Walthers continued to make. I suppose you could also include a date, even though its not completely necessary, but it would at least give the times these kit groups were made. For now, these dates will have to be approximate since I'm not sure of their exact dates. To start with, the earliest that I can find through catalogs as to when Pacific HO was first offered was 1950 (I suspect it was earlier). When Dave Spanagel was publishing "The Reporting Mark," for the HOSC&H Group (HO Scale Collectors & History) of this Special Interest Group of the NMRA back in the mid '80's - early '90's, he wrote an article on Pacific HO/Silver Streak. I've misplaced my issue containing that, but if I come across it I can fill in more exact dates. What I do have from model catalogs other than that of Pacific HO confirms that Pacific HO first produced four undec cabooses, seven 40' standard WS box cars, one 36' WS box car, one 50' auto car, sixteen 40' reefers and the four single-dome tank cars in 1950. By 1953, they added six more cabooses and three work cars. Perhaps early MR's or MRC's would yield others in their possible ads (I'll look back into that). Not having every Walthers catalog, the last I see of Pacific HO was 1971, and the first time I see Walthers 929 Silver Streak was 1973, during that time they bought out Pacific HO and offered the same kits, only. The first time I see Walthers 929 undecorated 40' standard box cars, 40' truss-rod cars, 50' Auto Cars, 40' reefers and hart gondolas was 1974. The problem with adding dates to all of Walthers new 929 production is that they spread it out over a number of years. In 1978, the added #929-176 through #929-181, and #929-422 through #929-427. Then in 1979, they added #929-123 through #929- 128, #929-228 through #929-233, #929-351 through #929-356, #929-428 through #929-433, and #929-506 through #929-511. Then in 1980 they added #929-130 through #929-133, #929-182 through #929-187, and #929- 299. I believe that's it, as things remained the same at least though the mid 1980's: I'm not sure if I left anything out. Regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Hello Ray, > > I now have four sections. I have put the S in the one group and have not > merged the third group with the second as you had mentioned yet. As I > review the first section along with the notes, I see that it includes some > Walthers production. So I wonder if we should add some dates to all of > this. Something like "This group used these catalog numbers from 19?? to 19 > ??." > > > > I will update the file in the site later this weekend. > > > > Take care. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > That about does it for Walthers 929, as far as I have info on them. > Again, any additions or corrections are welcome. You can add what > you have on the Walthers 729 below these listings as a separate > Walthers Later Silver Streak category and that should round it out. > Best, Ray Wetzel > > > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't confirm) > a > > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you want > to > > include it as a possible kit to look > for. > > > > ____________ __O______ _________ > > > > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll be > the > > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the > Walthers > > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific > HO's. > > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not the > > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first cataloged > > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 > ERIE > > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO > kits > > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from the > > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. In > > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 > > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the > > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as the "S" > will > > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and > > make it even more easier to understand. Ray > > > _._,___ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4869	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

I have an ad with a picture of an UP D/S boxcar kit for "The Silver Streak Line" (box cover has a picture of the Hart gondola), for "The Pacific HO Company" in The Model Railroader DECEMBER 1946 issue. so they WERE around quite a bit before1950. In regards to your other comment about Walthers, 1984 is the year that will live in infamy. The 1984 catalog still lists all the S/S products, but there's a full page ad announcing "New freight cars from Walthers in 1984" and "An exciting NEW (caps mine) line of freight car kits is now in preparation". In the 1985 book, the S/S cars were gone, and the "exciting new line" was of course the Train-Miniature cars which WERE new in 1970! It wasn't until a few years later that they resurfaced under the "Ye Olde Huff & Puff" name. (I don't have every catalog, in '89 they still weren't listed by '92 they were) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 4:08 PM Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > Hi Chuck, Looks like you're pretty well set to go on putting > together the spread-sheet. Getting back to what you're saying about > the first section -- Pacific HO; yes, this first section's kit > numbers (original Silver Streak) were also used later by Walthers but > with their 929 prefix with them. This is why we're using an "S" on > those Walthers kits (along with their 929), to denote which > previously Pacific HO kits Walthers continued to make. > > I suppose you could also include a date, even though its not > completely necessary, but it would at least give the times these kit > groups were made. For now, these dates will have to be approximate > since I'm not sure of their exact dates. To start with, the earliest > that I can find through catalogs as to when Pacific HO was first > offered was 1950 (I suspect it was earlier). When Dave Spanagel was > publishing "The Reporting Mark," for the HOSC&H Group (HO Scale > Collectors & History) of this Special Interest Group of the NMRA back > in the mid '80's - early '90's, he wrote an article on Pacific > HO/Silver Streak. I've misplaced my issue containing that, but if I > come across it I can fill in more exact dates. > > What I do have from model catalogs other than that of Pacific HO > confirms that Pacific HO first produced four undec cabooses, seven > 40' standard WS box cars, one 36' WS box car, one 50' auto car, > sixteen 40' reefers and the four single-dome tank cars in 1950. By > 1953, they added six more cabooses and three work cars. Perhaps > early MR's or MRC's would yield others in their possible ads (I'll > look back into that). > > Not having every Walthers catalog, the last I see of Pacific HO was > 1971, and the first time I see Walthers 929 Silver Streak was 1973, > during that time they bought out Pacific HO and offered the same > kits, only. The first time I see Walthers 929 undecorated 40' > standard box cars, 40' truss-rod cars, 50' Auto Cars, 40' reefers and > hart gondolas was 1974. The problem with adding dates to all of > Walthers new 929 production is that they spread it out over a number > of years. In 1978, the added #929-176 through #929-181, and #929-422 > through #929-427. Then in 1979, they added #929-123 through #929- > 128, #929-228 through #929-233, #929-351 through #929-356, #929-428 > through #929-433, and #929-506 through #929-511. Then in 1980 they > added #929-130 through #929-133, #929-182 through #929-187, and #929- > 299. I believe that's it, as things remained the same at least > though the mid 1980's: I'm not sure if I left anything out. > Regards, Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> > wrote: >> >> Hello Ray, >> >> I now have four sections. I have put the S in the one group and > have not >> merged the third group with the second as you had mentioned yet. > As I >> review the first section along with the notes, I see that it > includes some >> Walthers production. So I wonder if we should add some dates to > all of >> this. Something like "This group used these catalog numbers from > 19?? to 19 >> ??." >> >> >> >> I will update the file in the site later this weekend. >> >> >> >> Take care. >> >> >> >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 >> >> >> >> That about does it for Walthers 929, as far as I have info on them. >> Again, any additions or corrections are welcome. You can add what >> you have on the Walthers 729 below these listings as a separate >> Walthers Later Silver Streak category and that should round it out. >> Best, Ray Wetzel >> >> > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't > confirm) >> a >> > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you > want >> to >> > include it as a possible kit to look >> for. >> > >> > ______________O_______________ >> > >> > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll be >> the >> > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the >> Walthers >> > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific >> HO's. >> > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not > the >> > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first cataloged >> > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 >> ERIE >> > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO >> kits >> > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from the >> > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. In >> > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 >> > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the >> > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as the "S" >> will >> > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and >> > make it even more easier to understand. Ray >> > >> _._,___ >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4870	From: erieberk	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Thanks for checking out MR. Your post prompted me to take a quick check also. In a brief check back as far as 1948 (January MR) I found Pacific HO ads indicating they made a good variety of their 40' box cars and reefers. I haven't yet checked back any further, but it looks like they started quite a bit before 1950 as you stated. We could really use an early Pacific HO catalog to find out the extent of their line back then. This literature can occasionally be found at train meets, usually when you least expect it. I've got a bunch of my catalogs that way but don't have one for Silver Streak. I don't have every Walthers catalog either, but I used to buy it about every other year or so, probably like everyone else from what I'm starting to find out. I have the 1984 catalog, but don't have the 1985 one, so I wasn't aware of exactly when Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff took over the Silver Streak line. They did send me their catalog back then, but it wasn't dated, and I don't remember what year I received it, and I didn't know what year after 1984 the Silver Streak cars were gone from Walthers. It looks like we'll leave off the dates in the Silver Streak spread sheet, as it would get too involved since Walthers had new kits coming out every few years since they took it over from Pacific HO. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I have an ad with a picture of an UP D/S boxcar kit for "The Silver Streak > Line" (box cover has a picture of the Hart gondola), for "The Pacific HO > Company" in The Model Railroader DECEMBER 1946 issue. so they WERE around > quite a bit before1950. > > In regards to your other comment about Walthers, 1984 is the year that will > live in infamy. > > The 1984 catalog still lists all the S/S products, but there's a full page > ad announcing "New freight cars from Walthers in 1984" and "An exciting > NEW (caps mine) line of freight car kits is now in preparation". > > In the 1985 book, the S/S cars were gone, and the "exciting new line" was of > course the Train-Miniature cars which WERE new in 1970! > > It wasn't until a few years later that they resurfaced under the "Ye Olde > Huff & Puff" name. (I don't have every catalog, in '89 they still weren't > listed by '92 they were) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 4:08 PM > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Chuck, Looks like you're pretty well set to go on putting > > together the spread-sheet. Getting back to what you're saying about > > the first section -- Pacific HO; yes, this first section's kit > > numbers (original Silver Streak) were also used later by Walthers but > > with their 929 prefix with them. This is why we're using an "S" on > > those Walthers kits (along with their 929), to denote which > > previously Pacific HO kits Walthers continued to make. > > > > I suppose you could also include a date, even though its not > > completely necessary, but it would at least give the times these kit > > groups were made. For now, these dates will have to be approximate > > since I'm not sure of their exact dates. To start with, the earliest > > that I can find through catalogs as to when Pacific HO was first > > offered was 1950 (I suspect it was earlier). When Dave Spanagel was > > publishing "The Reporting Mark," for the HOSC&H Group (HO Scale > > Collectors & History) of this Special Interest Group of the NMRA back > > in the mid '80's - early '90's, he wrote an article on Pacific > > HO/Silver Streak. I've misplaced my issue containing that, but if I > > come across it I can fill in more exact dates. > > > > What I do have from model catalogs other than that of Pacific HO > > confirms that Pacific HO first produced four undec cabooses, seven > > 40' standard WS box cars, one 36' WS box car, one 50' auto car, > > sixteen 40' reefers and the four single-dome tank cars in 1950. By > > 1953, they added six more cabooses and three work cars. Perhaps > > early MR's or MRC's would yield others in their possible ads (I'll > > look back into that). > > > > Not having every Walthers catalog, the last I see of Pacific HO was > > 1971, and the first time I see Walthers 929 Silver Streak was 1973, > > during that time they bought out Pacific HO and offered the same > > kits, only. The first time I see Walthers 929 undecorated 40' > > standard box cars, 40' truss-rod cars, 50' Auto Cars, 40' reefers and > > hart gondolas was 1974. The problem with adding dates to all of > > Walthers new 929 production is that they spread it out over a number > > of years. In 1978, the added #929-176 through #929-181, and #929- 422 > > through #929-427. Then in 1979, they added #929-123 through #929- > > 128, #929-228 through #929-233, #929-351 through #929-356, #929- 428 > > through #929-433, and #929-506 through #929-511. Then in 1980 they > > added #929-130 through #929-133, #929-182 through #929-187, and #929- > > 299. I believe that's it, as things remained the same at least > > though the mid 1980's: I'm not sure if I left anything out. > > Regards, Ray > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > >> > >> Hello Ray, > >> > >> I now have four sections. I have put the S in the one group and > > have not > >> merged the third group with the second as you had mentioned yet. > > As I > >> review the first section along with the notes, I see that it > > includes some > >> Walthers production. So I wonder if we should add some dates to > > all of > >> this. Something like "This group used these catalog numbers from > > 19?? to 19 > >> ??." > >> > >> > >> > >> I will update the file in the site later this weekend. > >> > >> > >> > >> Take care. > >> > >> > >> > >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > >> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > >> > >> > >> > >> That about does it for Walthers 929, as far as I have info on them. > >> Again, any additions or corrections are welcome. You can add what > >> you have on the Walthers 729 below these listings as a separate > >> Walthers Later Silver Streak category and that should round it out. > >> Best, Ray Wetzel > >> > >> > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't > > confirm) > >> a > >> > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you > > want > >> to > >> > include it as a possible kit to look > >> for. > >> > > >> > ______________O_______________ > >> > > >> > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll be > >> the > >> > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the > >> Walthers > >> > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific > >> HO's. > >> > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not > > the > >> > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first cataloged > >> > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 > >> ERIE > >> > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO > >> kits > >> > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from the > >> > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. In > >> > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 > >> > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the > >> > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as the "S" > >> will > >> > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and > >> > make it even more easier to understand. Ray > >> > > >> _._,___ > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4871	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: MHP / Wright Enterprise

erieberk wrote: > Hi Don, Yes, thanks, I am aware that all the (Cascade, Daylight and > Lark) MHP articulated Diners were sold as 3-piece sets from Wright > Enterprises/Walthers, which was why I was surprised that Gerold's > diner units were missing a section and weren't offered as a set when > he bought them. I don't know whether mine came with trucks or not; > I've never opened them -- yet I have a United/PFM GS-4 I could > operate with them (LOL) -- I just never was able to get many of them, > or enough to make a train, so I use my Blue Line and American Beauty > cars instead. > I bought my set at eBay.de , they came from an estate and the seller did not know anything about them. I may buy a few Broadway Daylight cars - not a complete train, to many bucks, if they will be ever released and will keep my eyes open for Lark cars. I have to admit that I thought this are American Limited cars when I placed my bid - glad they are not! - The car lettered "coffee shop" has a wide section in the middle, but both sides are identical. They came with Micro-Motive four wheel trucks, should have six-wheel trucks at the articulations and Triple Bolster Trucks at the ends. BTW, I learned that some of those three car sets lost their kitchen unit later , although no longer in Daylight colors ... so I feel with some modelers license I can justify to run them the way they are now, maybe with other trucks. . Thanks for all the info. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4872	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: American Beauty Pendulum Car

After the MHP car discussion, I thought I should continue with another passenger car puzzle.... I have a yet unbuilt American Beauty GN "Pendulum" coach. I am somewhat disappointed as it has flat sides, not the distictive round cross-section like the prototype; and even worse, there are two identical sides so the assembled car would have the vestibule doors in diagonally opposite corners! Have the full instructions for it, but they show only ageneric plan. Wonder if this is the way those kits came, or if I got a mixed up box? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4873	From: erieberk	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing are not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 are for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re-do's are listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for Walthers 929 New Early Production. (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread sheet and to find stuff). (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have the Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had none (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in 1953 which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 (archive post #4844). (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO numbers. What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, #113 and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different sizes (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all jumbled up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit descriptions -- that's enough. (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 and #121 before #120. (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after the reefers (#400's). (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my mistake on that). (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#700's). !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note (1), etc. (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits to indicate they start after #421 (not #419). (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4-Wheel BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check back to my Pacific HO listing if needed). (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the separate size categories (with individual headings); their description says it all. (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 -- these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- post number 4896. (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- Drover and Combination Caboose. (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers (#S400's). (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#S700's). (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New Production (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the Drovers and Combination Cabooses. (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- no such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, they're Walthers #792 numbers. (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929-323 to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit number order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the word "Ice" from the heading. They were never described as such in the catalogs (even though most were ice bunker reefers). (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 through #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were all ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there will be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the bulk of it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > OK, maybe release dates are not the best idea. I have loaded some and also > put the file at the site. Take a look and tell me what you think. I put > some dates in but if it just doesn't make sense then I will go back and > delete them. I did copy the type of car for each line. This way if the > file is searched by roadname the car type comes along also. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:08 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Chuck, Looks like you're pretty well set to go on putting > together the spread-sheet. Getting back to what you're saying about > the first section -- Pacific HO; yes, this first section's kit > numbers (original Silver Streak) were also used later by Walthers but > with their 929 prefix with them. This is why we're using an "S" on > those Walthers kits (along with their 929), to denote which > previously Pacific HO kits Walthers continued to make. > > I suppose you could also include a date, even though its not > completely necessary, but it would at least give the times these kit > groups were made. For now, these dates will have to be approximate > since I'm not sure of their exact dates. To start with, the earliest > that I can find through catalogs as to when Pacific HO was first > offered was 1950 (I suspect it was earlier). When Dave Spanagel was > publishing "The Reporting Mark," for the HOSC&H Group (HO Scale > Collectors & History) of this Special Interest Group of the NMRA back > in the mid '80's - early '90's, he wrote an article on Pacific > HO/Silver Streak. I've misplaced my issue containing that, but if I > come across it I can fill in more exact dates. > > What I do have from model catalogs other than that of Pacific HO > confirms that Pacific HO first produced four undec cabooses, seven > 40' standard WS box cars, one 36' WS box car, one 50' auto car, > sixteen 40' reefers and the four single-dome tank cars in 1950. By > 1953, they added six more cabooses and three work cars. Perhaps > early MR's or MRC's would yield others in their possible ads (I'll > look back into that). > > Not having every Walthers catalog, the last I see of Pacific HO was > 1971, and the first time I see Walthers 929 Silver Streak was 1973, > during that time they bought out Pacific HO and offered the same > kits, only. The first time I see Walthers 929 undecorated 40' > standard box cars, 40' truss-rod cars, 50' Auto Cars, 40' reefers and > hart gondolas was 1974. The problem with adding dates to all of > Walthers new 929 production is that they spread it out over a number > of years. In 1978, the added #929-176 through #929-181, and #929- 422 > through #929-427. Then in 1979, they added #929-123 through #929- > 128, #929-228 through #929-233, #929-351 through #929-356, #929-428 > through #929-433, and #929-506 through #929-511. Then in 1980 they > added #929-130 through #929-133, #929-182 through #929-187, and #929- > 299. I believe that's it, as things remained the same at least > though the mid 1980's: I'm not sure if I left anything out. > Regards, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Hello Ray, > > > > I now have four sections. I have put the S in the one group and > have not > > merged the third group with the second as you had mentioned yet. > As I > > review the first section along with the notes, I see that it > includes some > > Walthers production. So I wonder if we should add some dates to > all of > > this. Something like "This group used these catalog numbers from > 19?? to 19 > > ??." > > > > > > > > I will update the file in the site later this weekend. > > > > > > > > Take care. > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > That about does it for Walthers 929, as far as I have info on them. > > Again, any additions or corrections are welcome. You can add what > > you have on the Walthers 729 below these listings as a separate > > Walthers Later Silver Streak category and that should round it out. > > Best, Ray Wetzel > > > > > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't > confirm) > > a > > > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you > want > > to > > > include it as a possible kit to look > > for. > > > > > > ______________O_______________ > > > > > > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll be > > the > > > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the > > Walthers > > > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific > > HO's. > > > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not > the > > > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first cataloged > > > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 > > ERIE > > > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO > > kits > > > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from the > > > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. In > > > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 > > > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the > > > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as the "S" > > will > > > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and > > > make it even more easier to understand. Ray > > > > > _._,___ > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4874	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Not to jump in on the end of this, but would it be easier to list each car and road number just once, with instead 3 or 4 columns for the various incarnations of the line? Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing are > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 are > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re-do's are > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread > sheet and to find stuff). > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have the > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had none > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in 1953 > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 > (archive post #4844). > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO numbers. > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, #113 > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different sizes > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all jumbled > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > descriptions -- that's enough. > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 and > #121 before #120. > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after the > reefers (#400's). > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my mistake > on that). > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers > (#700's). > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note (1), > etc. > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits to > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4-Wheel > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check back > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the separate > size categories (with individual headings); their description says it > all. > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 -- > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- > post number 4896. > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > (#S400's). > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#S700's). > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New Production > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- no > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, they're > Walthers #792 numbers. > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929-323 > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit number > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the word "Ice" > from the heading. They were never described as such in the catalogs > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 through > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were all > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there will > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the bulk of > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> > wrote: >> >> Ray, >> >> OK, maybe release dates are not the best idea. I have loaded some > and also >> put the file at the site. Take a look and tell me what you think. > I put >> some dates in but if it just doesn't make sense then I will go back > and >> delete them. I did copy the type of car for each line. This way > if the >> file is searched by roadname the car type comes along also. >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf >> Of erieberk >> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:08 PM >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak >> >> >> >> Hi Chuck, Looks like you're pretty well set to go on putting >> together the spread-sheet. Getting back to what you're saying about >> the first section -- Pacific HO; yes, this first section's kit >> numbers (original Silver Streak) were also used later by Walthers > but >> with their 929 prefix with them. This is why we're using an "S" on >> those Walthers kits (along with their 929), to denote which >> previously Pacific HO kits Walthers continued to make. >> >> I suppose you could also include a date, even though its not >> completely necessary, but it would at least give the times these > kit >> groups were made. For now, these dates will have to be approximate >> since I'm not sure of their exact dates. To start with, the > earliest >> that I can find through catalogs as to when Pacific HO was first >> offered was 1950 (I suspect it was earlier). When Dave Spanagel was >> publishing "The Reporting Mark," for the HOSC&H Group (HO Scale >> Collectors & History) of this Special Interest Group of the NMRA > back >> in the mid '80's - early '90's, he wrote an article on Pacific >> HO/Silver Streak. I've misplaced my issue containing that, but if I >> come across it I can fill in more exact dates. >> >> What I do have from model catalogs other than that of Pacific HO >> confirms that Pacific HO first produced four undec cabooses, seven >> 40' standard WS box cars, one 36' WS box car, one 50' auto car, >> sixteen 40' reefers and the four single-dome tank cars in 1950. By >> 1953, they added six more cabooses and three work cars. Perhaps >> early MR's or MRC's would yield others in their possible ads (I'll >> look back into that). >> >> Not having every Walthers catalog, the last I see of Pacific HO was >> 1971, and the first time I see Walthers 929 Silver Streak was 1973, >> during that time they bought out Pacific HO and offered the same >> kits, only. The first time I see Walthers 929 undecorated 40' >> standard box cars, 40' truss-rod cars, 50' Auto Cars, 40' reefers > and >> hart gondolas was 1974. The problem with adding dates to all of >> Walthers new 929 production is that they spread it out over a > number >> of years. In 1978, the added #929-176 through #929-181, and #929- > 422 >> through #929-427. Then in 1979, they added #929-123 through #929- >> 128, #929-228 through #929-233, #929-351 through #929-356, #929-428 >> through #929-433, and #929-506 through #929-511. Then in 1980 they >> added #929-130 through #929-133, #929-182 through #929-187, and > #929- >> 299. I believe that's it, as things remained the same at least >> though the mid 1980's: I'm not sure if I left anything out. >> Regards, Ray >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, >> "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> >> wrote: >> > >> > Hello Ray, >> > >> > I now have four sections. I have put the S in the one group and >> have not >> > merged the third group with the second as you had mentioned yet. >> As I >> > review the first section along with the notes, I see that it >> includes some >> > Walthers production. So I wonder if we should add some dates to >> all of >> > this. Something like "This group used these catalog numbers from >> 19?? to 19 >> > ??." >> > >> > >> > >> > I will update the file in the site later this weekend. >> > >> > >> > >> > Take care. >> > >> > >> > >> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> >> webshots.com/user/lordon104 >> > >> > >> > >> > That about does it for Walthers 929, as far as I have info on > them. >> > Again, any additions or corrections are welcome. You can add what >> > you have on the Walthers 729 below these listings as a separate >> > Walthers Later Silver Streak category and that should round it > out. >> > Best, Ray Wetzel >> > >> > > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't >> confirm) >> > a >> > > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you >> want >> > to >> > > include it as a possible kit to look >> > for. >> > > >> > > ______________O_______________ >> > > >> > > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll > be >> > the >> > > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the >> > Walthers >> > > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific >> > HO's. >> > > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not >> the >> > > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first > cataloged >> > > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 >> > ERIE >> > > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO >> > kits >> > > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from > the >> > > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. > In >> > > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 >> > > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the >> > > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as > the "S" >> > will >> > > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and >> > > make it even more easier to understand. Ray >> > > >> > _._,___ >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4875	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak

HI Ray,   I think I got most of the changes.   3), did you want me to put it there?   4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, sorry.  I have checked them and also what I printed out.   14) the last section ” Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- > post number 4896.”  Need some help with this line.   24), Which numbers did you want removed?   29), I missed 929-421, what is it?   File on site now.     Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing are not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 are for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re-do's are listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for Walthers 929 New Early Production. (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread sheet and to find stuff). (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have the Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had none (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in 1953 which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 (archive post #4844). (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO numbers. What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, #113 and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different sizes (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all jumbled up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit descriptions -- that's enough. (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 and #121 before #120. (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after the reefers (#400's). (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my mistake on that). (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#700's). !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note (1), etc. (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits to indicate they start after #421 (not #419). (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4-Wheel BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check back to my Pacific HO listing if needed). (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the separate size categories (with individual headings); their description says it all. (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 -- these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- post number 4896. (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- Drover and Combination Caboose. (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers (#S400's). (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#S700's). (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New Production (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the Drovers and Combination Cabooses. (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- no such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, they're Walthers #792 numbers. (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929-323 to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit number order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the word "Ice" from the heading. They were never described as such in the catalogs (even though most were ice bunker reefers). (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 through #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were all ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there will be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the bulk of it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4876	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Strea

Don,   I guess we are trying to include some sort of a time line for the different cars over the years.  There is not an easy way to display this with all of the variables.  So who can say.  Who knows maybe no one will even look at it once it is done.  I am just waiting for some glue to dry before I can get back to building.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:14 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Not to jump in on the end of this, but would it be easier to list each car and road number just once, with instead 3 or 4 columns for the various incarnations of the line? Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing are > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 are > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re-do's are > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread > sheet and to find stuff). > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have the > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had none > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in 1953 > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 > (archive post #4844). > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO numbers. > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, #113 > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different sizes > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all jumbled > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > descriptions -- that's enough. > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 and > #121 before #120. > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after the > reefers (#400's). > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my mistake > on that). > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers > (#700's). > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note (1), > etc. > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits to > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4-Wheel > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check back > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the separate > size categories (with individual headings); their description says it > all. > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 -- > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- > post number 4896. > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > (#S400's). > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#S700's). > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New Production > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- no > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, they're > Walthers #792 numbers. > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929-323 > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit number > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the word "Ice" > from the heading. They were never described as such in the catalogs > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 through > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were all > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there will > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the bulk of > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> > wrote: >> >> Ray, >> >> OK, maybe release dates are not the best idea. I have loaded some > and also >> put the file at the site. Take a look and tell me what you think. > I put >> some dates in but if it just doesn't make sense then I will go back > and >> delete them. I did copy the type of car for each line. This way > if the >> file is searched by roadname the car type comes along also. >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] > On Behalf >> Of erieberk >> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:08 PM >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak >> >> >> >> Hi Chuck, Looks like you're pretty well set to go on putting >> together the spread-sheet. Getting back to what you're saying about >> the first section -- Pacific HO; yes, this first section's kit >> numbers (original Silver Streak) were also used later by Walthers > but >> with their 929 prefix with them. This is why we're using an "S" on >> those Walthers kits (along with their 929), to denote which >> previously Pacific HO kits Walthers continued to make. >> >> I suppose you could also include a date, even though its not >> completely necessary, but it would at least give the times these > kit >> groups were made. For now, these dates will have to be approximate >> since I'm not sure of their exact dates. To start with, the > earliest >> that I can find through catalogs as to when Pacific HO was first >> offered was 1950 (I suspect it was earlier). When Dave Spanagel was >> publishing "The Reporting Mark," for the HOSC&H Group (HO Scale >> Collectors & History) of this Special Interest Group of the NMRA > back >> in the mid '80's - early '90's, he wrote an article on Pacific >> HO/Silver Streak. I've misplaced my issue containing that, but if I >> come across it I can fill in more exact dates. >> >> What I do have from model catalogs other than that of Pacific HO >> confirms that Pacific HO first produced four undec cabooses, seven >> 40' standard WS box cars, one 36' WS box car, one 50' auto car, >> sixteen 40' reefers and the four single-dome tank cars in 1950. By >> 1953, they added six more cabooses and three work cars. Perhaps >> early MR's or MRC's would yield others in their possible ads (I'll >> look back into that). >> >> Not having every Walthers catalog, the last I see of Pacific HO was >> 1971, and the first time I see Walthers 929 Silver Streak was 1973, >> during that time they bought out Pacific HO and offered the same >> kits, only. The first time I see Walthers 929 undecorated 40' >> standard box cars, 40' truss-rod cars, 50' Auto Cars, 40' reefers > and >> hart gondolas was 1974. The problem with adding dates to all of >> Walthers new 929 production is that they spread it out over a > number >> of years. In 1978, the added #929-176 through #929-181, and #929- > 422 >> through #929-427. Then in 1979, they added #929-123 through #929- >> 128, #929-228 through #929-233, #929-351 through #929-356, #929-428 >> through #929-433, and #929-506 through #929-511. Then in 1980 they >> added #929-130 through #929-133, #929-182 through #929-187, and > #929- >> 299. I believe that's it, as things remained the same at least >> though the mid 1980's: I'm not sure if I left anything out. >> Regards, Ray >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com, >> "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> >> wrote: >> > >> > Hello Ray, >> > >> > I now have four sections. I have put the S in the one group and >> have not >> > merged the third group with the second as you had mentioned yet. >> As I >> > review the first section along with the notes, I see that it >> includes some >> > Walthers production. So I wonder if we should add some dates to >> all of >> > this. Something like "This group used these catalog numbers from >> 19?? to 19 >> > ??." >> > >> > >> > >> > I will update the file in the site later this weekend. >> > >> > >> > >> > Take care. >> > >> > >> > >> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> > http://community. <http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> >> webshots.com/ user/lordon104 >> > >> > >> > >> > That about does it for Walthers 929, as far as I have info on > them. >> > Again, any additions or corrections are welcome. You can add what >> > you have on the Walthers 729 below these listings as a separate >> > Walthers Later Silver Streak category and that should round it > out. >> > Best, Ray Wetzel >> > >> > > That wraps up Pacific HO, although I've read of (but can't >> confirm) >> > a >> > > 25 Ton Industrial Brownhoist Wrecker (Kit # ? color ?) if you >> want >> > to >> > > include it as a possible kit to look >> > for. >> > > >> > > ____________ __O______ _________ >> > > >> > > Now as for Early Walthers 929 Pacific HO carry-overs, they'll > be >> > the >> > > same Silver Streak numbers as Pacific HO used, but with the >> > Walthers >> > > 929 prefix number, and they carried over everything of Pacific >> > HO's. >> > > I suggest we use an "S" in front of the actual kit number (not >> the >> > > prefix number) for these, similar to how Walthers first > cataloged >> > > them before they used their own prefix number -- like #929-S120 >> > ERIE >> > > for instance. This will differentiate original type Pacific HO >> > kits >> > > that were offered by Early Walthers production of these, from > the >> > > Early Walthers production of their own new Silver Streak kits. > In >> > > thinking about this further, we could probably run the new 929 >> > > Walthers kits (coming up next) in with and continuing after the >> > > Walthers 929 S... (Pacific HO re-runs) as ONE LISTING as > the "S" >> > will >> > > indicate the difference between them. This should save work and >> > > make it even more easier to understand. Ray >> > > >> > _._,___ >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4877	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 1/13/2008
Subject: McKean PS-1 boxcars

Having just built my first McKean car (NP) I have a couple of questions of the font of information on the list: The instruction sheet has 'Sky Lim Inc' as the builder, but when I googled 'McKean', I got 'Accurate Finishing' as the builder. Does anyone have more information on McKean models? Hunting through RMC got me an anticipatory ad in Apr. 1981, with McKean boxcars promised 'in the fall', i.e. autumn 1981 would make it Sept-Nov in the northern hemisphere, wouldn't it? With gaps in my RMC's, the next mention I found was not until Dec. '82, when the PS-1 cars were advertised for $4.50. Were they available prior to Dec. '82? And finally, two sets of doors were offered with the kit...five heavy V-shaped ribs or a finer rounded/corrugated rib...I assume that both could have been used over time, but I haven't been able to find a side-view of an NP PS-1 car...would be much appreciated if anyone could direct me to a source. Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4878	From: maobuch@sbcglobal.net	Date: 1/14/2008
Subject: Model Traincars & Layout Forsale

I am offering forsale a large group of HO scale railcars and other items. I also am offering forsale a custom made HO scale layout, which is half done and was tobe made as a ELL layout. I have an older list of HO scale railcars and locomotives that I am not yet placed with E-Bay or have placed into our up coming auction sale, which will be done in March. Any interested parties may contact me off from this group and I will forward my list and I will take any reasonable offer on the layout and/or railcars/locomotives. Some of my goodies are listed now on E-Bay and do a search using my ID of "train_lady_73662" that I use with E-Bay for you will find my #4005 UP BIG BOY UP 4-8-8-4 up forsale, plus some other locomotives that I just listed W/E-bay. Yours Truly, Maryann Sayre,Ok.   Yours Truly, Maryann Obuch http://www.youtube.com/user/arti73662

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4879	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/14/2008
Subject: Re: Model Traincars & Layout Forsale

Not Vintage! Garry Spear On 1/14/08, maobuch@... <maobuch@... > wrote:   I am offering forsale a large group of HO scale railcars and other items. I also am offering forsale a custom made HO scale layout, which is half done and was tobe made as a ELL layout. I have an older list of HO scale railcars and locomotives that I am not yet placed with E-Bay or have placed into our up coming auction sale, which will be done in March. Any interested parties may contact me off from this group and I will forward my list and I will take any reasonable offer on the layout and/or railcars/locomotives. Some of my goodies are listed now on E-Bay and do a search using my ID of "train_lady_73662" that I use with E-Bay for you will find my #4005 UP BIG BOY UP 4-8-8-4 up forsale, plus some other locomotives that I just listed W/E-bay. Yours Truly, Maryann…Sayre,Ok.   Yours Truly, Maryann Obuch http://www.youtube.com/user/arti73662

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4880	From: lvtrainmeet	Date: 1/14/2008
Subject: Nice Train meet this weekend

Just wanted to let everyone Know there is a train meet this weekend at Merchants Sqaure Mall 1901 S 12th st Allentown Pa Jan 19th and 20th You Can get info at www.lehighvalleytrainmeet.com Hope to see you there. Kevin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4881	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/14/2008
Subject: Re: Model Traincars & Layout Forsale

Maryann:   I have not moderated your posts, but ever since you joined it seems the only contribution has been to try and sell things.  We don't mind helping people, but please refrain if this is nothing more than a commercial venture.   Thanks   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: maobuch@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 6:32 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Model Traincars & Layout Forsale   I am offering forsale a large group of HO scale railcars and other items. I also am offering forsale a custom made HO scale layout, which is half done and was tobe made as a ELL layout. I have an older list of HO scale railcars and locomotives that I am not yet placed with E-Bay or have placed into our up coming auction sale, which will be done in March. Any interested parties may contact me off from this group and I will forward my list and I will take any reasonable offer on the layout and/or railcars/locomotives. Some of my goodies are listed now on E-Bay and do a search using my ID of "train_lady_73662" that I use with E-Bay for you will find my #4005 UP BIG BOY UP 4-8-8-4 up forsale, plus some other locomotives that I just listed W/E-bay. Yours Truly, Maryann Sayre,Ok.   Yours Truly, Maryann Obuch http://www.youtube.com/user/arti73662

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4882	From: Paul Kayne	Date: 1/15/2008
Subject: Re: Nice Train meet this weekend

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "lvtrainmeet" <lvtrainmeet@...> wrote: > > Just wanted to let everyone Know there is a train meet this weekend at > Merchants Sqaure Mall 1901 S 12th st Allentown Pa Jan 19th and 20th > You Can get info at www.lehighvalleytrainmeet.com > Hope to see you there. > Kevin Kevin, Thanks for the "Heads Up"..... I'll get there Saturday, look for "Western Hat"....Paul Kayne >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4883	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/15/2008
Subject: FS: Older HO Cars & kits

I have two boxes of old HO + more to sell. I have a list of 50 or so boxes; 43 currently on the list with 8-10 seperate cars.. The boxes have not been checked Some boxes have kits, some have assembled cars, and some have ??? A quick check tells me that some boxes are complete and correct and some are not. All items will be checked and sold. IF there is a kit or two you are interested in buying please let me know and I will move that box to the top of the list. Not for sale as a big group because I'm told there is a third box with more and this box has parts. Please respond off list directly to me. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4884	From: erieberk	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak

Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over thoroughly, to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over the weekend. This should about do it now. The first thing I noticed was that you changed things around from the way I had it with what I thought was the more important info (car numbers) first, then the car color after. If you prefer having the car color first, I'm not going to nit-pick on that, but I can't figure out why. Now, following up on the points (#3, #4 , #14, #24 and #29) we last touched on, and starting with #3, Yes you can include the undec 4- wheel Bobber Caboose (caboose red) under Pacific HO but don't include a kit number: I haven't seen a Pacific HO kit number listed for it, and #175 may ONLY be a Walthers 929 number for it. Point #4: You can please remove 105, 106, 109 and 114 under Pacific HO -- they don't exist ass far as I know (sorry). Point #14: On #201, #207, #220, 301-303 and 403-421; disregard this, everything appears to be in order. Point #24: Skip this one too; everything appears okay here -- I must have misread it. Point #29: Disregard this one too -- must have misread something. Other things needing attention: (1) Under Pacific HO, remove #200 undec. -- While Pacific HO may have made one, I can't find it anywhere it the catalogs, although it may surface later. (2) Include Bay Window in the description for PH #116 and Walthers 929 -S116 Southern Pacific. (3) Under Pacific HO, re-label #700 through #703 as 40' Truss Rod Cars (as Pacific HO did) or list them as two groups, 40' T/R Box Car and 40' T/R Reefer (as Walthers did -- and as you also did with Walthers). The #700, #701 # 703 are Reefers and the #702 is a Box Car. (4) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, remove Yellow from #929-356 SP/T&NO, unless you happen to know its that color. I haven't been able to come up with a color for it yet. (5) I think it reads best to include the reporting marks with the car description, befor the road name. This would apply for 929-428 QREX, 929-430 NADX and 929-432 URT. (6) Include the Tank Cars under Pacific HO ONLY, as Walthers never continued them, and again, include any reporting marks in the description, before the roadname. (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola #929- 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer Yellow. Thanks a bunch. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > HI Ray, > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, sorry. I have > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301- 303, > 403-421 -- > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing are > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 are > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re-do's are > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread > sheet and to find stuff). > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have the > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had none > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in 1953 > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 > (archive post #4844). > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO numbers. > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, #113 > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different sizes > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all jumbled > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > descriptions -- that's enough. > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 and > #121 before #120. > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after the > reefers (#400's). > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my mistake > on that). > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers > (#700's). > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note (1), > etc. > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits to > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4-Wheel > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check back > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the separate > size categories (with individual headings); their description says it > all. > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 -- > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- > post number 4896. > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > (#S400's). > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#S700's). > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New Production > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- no > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, they're > Walthers #792 numbers. > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929-323 > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit number > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the word "Ice" > from the heading. They were never described as such in the catalogs > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 through > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were all > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there will > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the bulk of > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4885	From: Ian Garton	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Interiors for MDC Roundhouse Pullman Palace Cars?

Hi all, Does anybody know if Walthers ever made interiors for the 4 MDC Roundhouse Pullman Palace Cars? If so, what item numbers were they? Would the typical Walthers interiors for Pullman heavyweights be suitable? Are there any other interior kits that are suitable for the Pullman Palace Cars in terms of seat style and era? Thanks for any help you can offer. Best Regards, Ian

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4886	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: mystery car

While rummaging thru the boxes of "Ancient HO" in "The Basement" I found a car body that puzzles me--I have not dug into the MR files to find an ad yet but here is a description:   The body is sand-cast aluminum, all in one piece--there are large rectangular openings in the bottom at each end which I suppose supported a core.  There is no rivet detail.  Windows are squareish, with distinct sash. Diaphragms are cast in. Underbody objects are cast on. Definitely smaller cross section than the John English cars, and nowhere near the detail.    HO measurement        1/8" scale meas. Length    72'                79' width        9'                10' side ht,     7'                8'   (sill to eave) total ht.    12'                14' (steps on table, over roof)   Anyone got any ideas what it is?  Anyone interested?   gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4887	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would be the same format and that is what we did with that one.  No other reason. Updated file at the group site. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over thoroughly, to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over the weekend. This should about do it now. (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola #929- 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer Yellow. Thanks a bunch. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > HI Ray, > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, sorry. I have > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301- 303, > 403-421 -- > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing are > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 are > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re-do's are > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread > sheet and to find stuff). > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have the > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had none > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in 1953 > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 > (archive post #4844). > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO numbers. > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, #113 > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different sizes > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all jumbled > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > descriptions -- that's enough. > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 and > #121 before #120. > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after the > reefers (#400's). > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my mistake > on that). > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers > (#700's). > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note (1), > etc. > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits to > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4-Wheel > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check back > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the separate > size categories (with individual headings); their description says it > all. > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 -- > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- > post number 4896. > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > (#S400's). > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#S700's). > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New Production > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- no > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, they're > Walthers #792 numbers. > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929-323 > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit number > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the word "Ice" > from the heading. They were never described as such in the catalogs > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 through > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were all > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there will > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the bulk of > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4888	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

Yeah, I'm interested. If for no other reason than to have a second unit to put with the one I have! I have an identifier on mine. Go over to Yardbird Yahoo site, click Photos, second page, bottom right. Unknown Cast Aluminum coach. Mine is now painted, with trucks. Dave > While rummaging thru the boxes of "Ancient HO" in "The Basement" I found a car body that puzzles me--I have not dug into the MR files to find an ad yet but here is a description: > > The body is sand-cast aluminum, all in one piece--there are large rectangular openings in the bottom at each end which I suppose supported a core. There is no rivet detail. Windows are squareish, with distinct sash. Diaphragms are cast in. Underbody objects are cast on. Definitely smaller cross section than the John English cars, and nowhere near the detail. > > HO measurement 1/8" scale meas. > Length 72' 79' > width 9' 10' > side ht, 7' 8' (sill to eave) > total ht. 12' 14' (steps on table, over roof) > > Anyone got any ideas what it is? Anyone interested? > > gj >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4889	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: Interiors for MDC Roundhouse Pullman Palace Cars?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Garton" <ian_garton@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Interiors for MDC Roundhouse Pullman Palace Cars? > Hi all, > > Does anybody know if Walthers ever made interiors for the 4 MDC > Roundhouse Pullman Palace Cars? If so, what item numbers were they? > > Would the typical Walthers interiors for Pullman heavyweights be > suitable? Are there any other interior kits that are suitable for the > Pullman Palace Cars in terms of seat style and era? > > Thanks for any help you can offer. > > Best Regards, > Ian The Pullman Palace Interiors were: 933-943 Pullman 933-944 Observation 933-784 Buffet Combine 933-950 Diner Hope this helps Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4890	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

Any chance of a photo?   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 7:14 PM Subject: [vintageHO] mystery car While rummaging thru the boxes of "Ancient HO" in "The Basement" I found a car body that puzzles me--I have not dug into the MR files to find an ad yet but here is a description:   The body is sand-cast aluminum, all in one piece--there are large rectangular openings in the bottom at each end which I suppose supported a core.  There is no rivet detail.  Windows are squareish, with distinct sash. Diaphragms are cast in. Underbody objects are cast on. Definitely smaller cross section than the John English cars, and nowhere near the detail.    HO measurement        1/8" scale meas. Length    72'                79' width        9'                10' side ht,     7'                8'   (sill to eave) total ht.    12'                14' (steps on table, over roof)   Anyone got any ideas what it is?  Anyone interested?   gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4891	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

Dave--I need a better address--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: mystery car > Yeah, I'm interested. > If for no other reason than to have a second unit to put with the > one I have! > I have an identifier on mine. > Go over to Yardbird Yahoo site, click Photos, second page, bottom > right. > Unknown Cast Aluminum coach. > > Mine is now painted, with trucks. > > Dave > >> While rummaging thru the boxes of "Ancient HO" in "The Basement" I > found a car body that puzzles me--I have not dug into the MR files > to find an ad yet but here is a description: >> >> The body is sand-cast aluminum, all in one piece--there are large > rectangular openings in the bottom at each end which I suppose > supported a core. There is no rivet detail. Windows are squareish, > with distinct sash. Diaphragms are cast in. Underbody objects are > cast on. Definitely smaller cross section than the John English > cars, and nowhere near the detail. >> >> HO measurement 1/8" scale meas. >> Length 72' 79' >> width 9' 10' >> side ht, 7' 8' (sill to eave) >> total ht. 12' 14' (steps on table, over roof) >> >> Anyone got any ideas what it is? Anyone interested? >> >> gj >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4892	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

I don't do digital photos, but the old curmudgeon has sent me a picture of it--exactly what I have--Knapp.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] mystery car Any chance of a photo?   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 7:14 PM Subject: [vintageHO] mystery car While rummaging thru the boxes of "Ancient HO" in "The Basement" I found a car body that puzzles me--I have not dug into the MR files to find an ad yet but here is a description:   The body is sand-cast aluminum, all in one piece--there are large rectangular openings in the bottom at each end which I suppose supported a core.  There is no rivet detail.  Windows are squareish, with distinct sash. Diaphragms are cast in. Underbody objects are cast on. Definitely smaller cross section than the John English cars, and nowhere near the detail.    HO measurement        1/8" scale meas. Length    72'                79' width        9'                10' side ht,     7'                8'   (sill to eave) total ht.    12'                14' (steps on table, over roof)   Anyone got any ideas what it is?  Anyone interested?   gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4893	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/yardbirdtrains/photos/browse? b=17&m=t&o=5 At least that's the header. However, past experience shows yay-who changes the coding frequently so you cannot link to a photo found there for very long. Dave > Dave--I need a better address--gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 6:22 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: mystery car > > > > Yeah, I'm interested. > > If for no other reason than to have a second unit to put with the > > one I have! > > I have an identifier on mine. > > Go over to Yardbird Yahoo site, click Photos, second page, bottom > > right. > > Unknown Cast Aluminum coach. > > > > Mine is now painted, with trucks. > > > > Dave > > > >> While rummaging thru the boxes of "Ancient HO" in "The Basement" I > > found a car body that puzzles me--I have not dug into the MR files > > to find an ad yet but here is a description: > >> > >> The body is sand-cast aluminum, all in one piece--there are large > > rectangular openings in the bottom at each end which I suppose > > supported a core. There is no rivet detail. Windows are squareish, > > with distinct sash. Diaphragms are cast in. Underbody objects are > > cast on. Definitely smaller cross section than the John English > > cars, and nowhere near the detail. > >> > >> HO measurement 1/8" scale meas. > >> Length 72' 79' > >> width 9' 10' > >> side ht, 7' 8' (sill to eave) > >> total ht. 12' 14' (steps on table, over roof) > >> > >> Anyone got any ideas what it is? Anyone interested? > >> > >> gj > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4894	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/21/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

Yahoo wants me to start a new group.. Meanwhile--the photos you have are exactly what I have. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 7:35 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: mystery car > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/yardbirdtrains/photos/browse? > b=17&m=t&o=5 > > > At least that's the header. > However, past experience shows yay-who changes the coding frequently > so you cannot link to a photo found there for very long. > Dave >> Dave--I need a better address--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 6:22 PM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: mystery car >> >> >> > Yeah, I'm interested. >> > If for no other reason than to have a second unit to put with > the >> > one I have! >> > I have an identifier on mine. >> > Go over to Yardbird Yahoo site, click Photos, second page, > bottom >> > right. >> > Unknown Cast Aluminum coach. >> > >> > Mine is now painted, with trucks. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> >> While rummaging thru the boxes of "Ancient HO" in "The > Basement" I >> > found a car body that puzzles me--I have not dug into the MR > files >> > to find an ad yet but here is a description: >> >> >> >> The body is sand-cast aluminum, all in one piece--there are > large >> > rectangular openings in the bottom at each end which I suppose >> > supported a core. There is no rivet detail. Windows are > squareish, >> > with distinct sash. Diaphragms are cast in. Underbody objects > are >> > cast on. Definitely smaller cross section than the John English >> > cars, and nowhere near the detail. >> >> >> >> HO measurement 1/8" scale meas. >> >> Length 72' 79' >> >> width 9' 10' >> >> side ht, 7' 8' (sill to eave) >> >> total ht. 12' 14' (steps on table, over roof) >> >> >> >> Anyone got any ideas what it is? Anyone interested? >> >> >> >> gj >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4895	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

Could one of you guys post at least a temporary copy of that image in this group ??? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jan 21, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > Yahoo wants me to start a new group.. Meanwhile--the photos you > have are > exactly what I have. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "curmudgeon" > >> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/yardbirdtrains/photos/browse? >> b=17&m=t&o=5 >> >> >> At least that's the header. >> However, past experience shows yay-who changes the coding frequently

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4896	From: erieberk	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would be so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I meant to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy (lol). Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 undec Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of January 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, color - Reefer Orange. Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 numbers or roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 undec 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the 929- 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of this group). Please add. It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would be the same > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. > > Updated file at the group site. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over thoroughly, > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over the > weekend. This should about do it now. > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola #929- > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer Yellow. > > Thanks a bunch. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > HI Ray, > > > > > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, > sorry. I have > > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301- > 303, > > 403-421 -- > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver > Streak > > > > > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing > are > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 > are > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re-do's > are > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread > > sheet and to find stuff). > > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have the > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. > > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had > none > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in > 1953 > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 > > (archive post #4844). > > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO > numbers. > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, > #113 > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different > sizes > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all > jumbled > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > > descriptions -- that's enough. > > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 and > > #121 before #120. > > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after the > > reefers (#400's). > > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my > mistake > > on that). > > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers > > (#700's). > > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note > (1), > > etc. > > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits to > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- Wheel > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check back > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the separate > > size categories (with individual headings); their description says > it > > all. > > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 -- > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- > > post number 4896. > > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- > > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. > > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > > (#S400's). > > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#S700's). > > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New > Production > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- no > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, > they're > > Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929- 323 > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit number > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the > word "Ice" > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the catalogs > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 through > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were all > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there > will > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the bulk > of > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4897	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

Sure, but how do you do that? > Could one of you guys post at least a temporary copy of that image in > this group ??? > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > > > Yahoo wants me to start a new group.. Meanwhile--the photos you > > have are > > exactly what I have. gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "curmudgeon" > > > >> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/yardbirdtrains/photos/browse? > >> b=17&m=t&o=5 > >> > >> > >> At least that's the header. > >> However, past experience shows yay-who changes the coding frequently >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4898	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

I added three shots in the photo album labeled "Cast aluminum Knapp Coach" Dave > Could one of you guys post at least a temporary copy of that image in > this group ??? > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Jan 21, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > > > Yahoo wants me to start a new group.. Meanwhile--the photos you > > have are > > exactly what I have. gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "curmudgeon" > > > >> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/yardbirdtrains/photos/browse? > >> b=17&m=t&o=5 > >> > >> > >> At least that's the header. > >> However, past experience shows yay-who changes the coding frequently >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4899	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

Go to the photo page of the group, click on the add a picture link near the top right and follow it's prompts. It's a click and label procedure. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jan 22, 2008, at 2:54 PM, curmudgeon wrote: > Sure, but how do you do that? > > >> Could one of you guys post at least a temporary copy of that image > in >> this group ???

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4900	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

All that does for me is allows me to post to existing albums, not to the list. Maybe it's because I'm set up to view on web only. I did post photos earlier. Dave > Go to the photo page of the group, click on the add a picture link > near the top right and follow it's prompts. It's a click and label > procedure. > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Jan 22, 2008, at 2:54 PM, curmudgeon wrote: > > > Sure, but how do you do that? > > > > > >> Could one of you guys post at least a temporary copy of that image > > in > >> this group ??? >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4901	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

It also allows you make a folder and post in that....... Sounds like you want to 'attach' the image to your email instead of posting to the group files. That will work, but it would be longer lasting if you posted the image in the group photos... But either way works........... does this work with your email program???........ http://www.geekgirls.com/windows_email_photos.htm Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jan 22, 2008, at 4:46 PM, curmudgeon wrote: > All that does for me is allows me to post to existing albums, not to > the list. > Maybe it's because I'm set up to view on web only. > I did post photos earlier. > Dave > >> Go to the photo page of the group, click on the add a picture > link >> near the top right and follow it's prompts. It's a click and > label >> procedure. >> >> Best to ya' >> Mike Bauers >> Milwaukee Wi, USA >> >> >> On Jan 22, 2008, at 2:54 PM, curmudgeon wrote: >> >>> Sure, but how do you do that? >>> >>> >>>> Could one of you guys post at least a temporary copy of that > image >>> in >>>> this group ???

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4902	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

If you're "web only" you still should be able to attach photos to emails, but you won't see them. Only "daily email" members see the attachments, web only or "daily digest" people don't. You can make a new album in the photos section on the website. (which it sounds like you did, I haven't gone and checked them out yet) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:46 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: mystery car > All that does for me is allows me to post to existing albums, not to > the list. > Maybe it's because I'm set up to view on web only. > I did post photos earlier. > Dave > >> Go to the photo page of the group, click on the add a picture > link >> near the top right and follow it's prompts. It's a click and > label >> procedure. >> >> Best to ya' >> Mike Bauers >> Milwaukee Wi, USA >> >> >> On Jan 22, 2008, at 2:54 PM, curmudgeon wrote: >> >> > Sure, but how do you do that? >> > >> > >> >> Could one of you guys post at least a temporary copy of that > image >> > in >> >> this group ??? >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4903	From: curmudgeon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: mystery car

Then I had mis-understood. I thought you had asked for a photo posted to the group. I already have them in the photo section of this forum. Dave > It also allows you make a folder and post in that....... > > Sounds like you want to 'attach' the image to your email instead of > posting to the group files. That will work, but it would be longer > lasting if you posted the image in the group photos... > > But either way works........... > > does this work with your email program???........ > > http://www.geekgirls.com/windows_email_photos.htm > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Jan 22, 2008, at 4:46 PM, curmudgeon wrote: > > > All that does for me is allows me to post to existing albums, not to > > the list. > > Maybe it's because I'm set up to view on web only. > > I did post photos earlier. > > Dave > > > >> Go to the photo page of the group, click on the add a picture > > link > >> near the top right and follow it's prompts. It's a click and > > label > >> procedure. > >> > >> Best to ya' > >> Mike Bauers > >> Milwaukee Wi, USA > >> > >> > >> On Jan 22, 2008, at 2:54 PM, curmudgeon wrote: > >> > >>> Sure, but how do you do that? > >>> > >>> > >>>> Could one of you guys post at least a temporary copy of that > > image > >>> in > >>>> this group ??? >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4904	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Hi Ray, OK, updated file in section. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:58 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would be so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I meant to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy (lol). Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 undec Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of January 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, color - Reefer Orange . Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 numbers or roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 undec 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the 929- 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of this group). Please add. It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would be the same > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. > > Updated file at the group site. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over thoroughly, > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over the > weekend. This should about do it now. > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola #929- > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer Yellow. > > Thanks a bunch. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > HI Ray, > > > > > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, > sorry. I have > > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301- > 303, > > 403-421 -- > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. < href="http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104">http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver > Streak > > > > > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing > are > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 > are > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re-do's > are > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread > > sheet and to find stuff). > > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have the > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. > > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had > none > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in > 1953 > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 > > (archive post #4844). > > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO > numbers. > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, > #113 > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different > sizes > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all > jumbled > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > > descriptions -- that's enough. > > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 and > > #121 before #120. > > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after the > > reefers (#400's). > > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my > mistake > > on that). > > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers > > (#700's). > > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note > (1), > > etc. > > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits to > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- Wheel > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check back > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the separate > > size categories (with individual headings); their description says > it > > all. > > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 -- > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- > > post number 4896. > > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- > > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. > > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > > (#S400's). > > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers (#S700's). > > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New > Production > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- no > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, > they're > > Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929- 323 > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit number > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the > word "Ice" > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the catalogs > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 through > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were all > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there > will > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the bulk > of > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4905	From: erieberk	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Hi Chuck, Lookin' real good! There's just one thing you forgot -- please correct the Walthers NEW Early Production -- 929-299 Walthers Commemorative box car reporting marks to WKWX (not WKMX); it refers to William K. Walthers. Many thanks again, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > OK, updated file in section. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:58 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would be > so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple > more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I meant > to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy (lol). > Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 undec > Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of January > 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, color - > Reefer Orange. > > Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart > Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken > them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 numbers or > roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 > Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. > > Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 undec > 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. > > And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the 929- > 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of this > group). Please add. > > It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something > useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would be > the same > > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. > > > > Updated file at the group site. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over thoroughly, > > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over the > > weekend. This should about do it now. > > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola #929- > > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer Yellow. > > > > Thanks a bunch. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > HI Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > > > > > > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, > > sorry. I have > > > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > > > > > > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301- > > 303, > > > 403-421 -- > > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > > > > > > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > > > > > > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > > > > > > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. <http://community. > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver > > Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing > > are > > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not > > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 > > are > > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re- do's > > are > > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > > > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the > > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread > > > sheet and to find stuff). > > > > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have > the > > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. > > > > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had > > none > > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in > > 1953 > > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 > > > (archive post #4844). > > > > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, > > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO > > numbers. > > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, > > #113 > > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > > > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different > > sizes > > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all > > jumbled > > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > > > descriptions -- that's enough. > > > > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 > and > > > #121 before #120. > > > > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after > the > > > reefers (#400's). > > > > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my > > mistake > > > on that). > > > > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers > > > (#700's). > > > > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note > > (1), > > > etc. > > > > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits > to > > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > > > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- > Wheel > > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check > back > > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > > > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the > separate > > > size categories (with individual headings); their description > says > > it > > > all. > > > > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you > > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 - - > > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post > > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- > > > post number 4896. > > > > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > > > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- > > > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > > > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. > > > > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > > > (#S400's). > > > > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > > > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers > (#S700's). > > > > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > > > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New > > Production > > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > > > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > > > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- > no > > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > > > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the > > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > > > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, > > they're > > > Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929- > 323 > > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit > number > > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the > > word "Ice" > > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the > catalogs > > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > > > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 > through > > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were > all > > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there > > will > > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the > bulk > > of > > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4906	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Ray, I just can not tell the difference between the W and M.  I will fix it soon.  Got to clean these glasses. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:37 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Hi Chuck, Lookin' real good! There's just one thing you forgot -- please correct the Walthers NEW Early Production -- 929-299 Walthers Commemorative box car reporting marks to WKWX (not WKMX); it refers to William K. Walthers. Many thanks again, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > OK, updated file in section. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:58 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would be > so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple > more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I meant > to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy (lol). > Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 undec > Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of January > 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, color - > Reefer Orange . > > Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart > Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken > them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 numbers or > roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 > Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. > > Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 undec > 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. > > And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the 929- > 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of this > group). Please add. > > It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something > useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would be > the same > > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. > > > > Updated file at the group site. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. < href="http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104">http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over thoroughly, > > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over the > > weekend. This should about do it now. > > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola #929- > > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer Yellow. > > > > Thanks a bunch. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > HI Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > > > > > > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, > > sorry. I have > > > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > > > > > > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301- > > 303, > > > 403-421 -- > > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > > > > > > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > > > > > > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > > > > > > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. < href="http://community.">http://community. > <http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> webshots.com/ user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver > > Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my listing > > are > > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is not > > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to #10 > > are > > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re- do's > > are > > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > > > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between the > > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the spread > > > sheet and to find stuff). > > > > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have > the > > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit styles. > > > > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had > > none > > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in > > 1953 > > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from 1/9 > > > (archive post #4844). > > > > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, #127, > > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO > > numbers. > > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, > > #113 > > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > > > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different > > sizes > > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all > > jumbled > > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > > > descriptions -- that's enough. > > > > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 > and > > > #121 before #120. > > > > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after > the > > > reefers (#400's). > > > > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my > > mistake > > > on that). > > > > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod Reefers > > > (#700's). > > > > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as Note > > (1), > > > etc. > > > > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits > to > > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > > > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- > Wheel > > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check > back > > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > > > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the > separate > > > size categories (with individual headings); their description > says > > it > > > all. > > > > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF you > > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 - - > > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; post > > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403-421 -- > > > post number 4896. > > > > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > > > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it -- > > > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > > > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO kits. > > > > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > > > (#S400's). > > > > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > > > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers > (#S700's). > > > > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > > > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New > > Production > > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > > > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > > > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 -- > no > > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > > > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after the > > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > > > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, > > they're > > > Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929- > 323 > > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit > number > > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the > > word "Ice" > > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the > catalogs > > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > > > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 > through > > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were > all > > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there > > will > > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the > bulk > > of > > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4907	From: Ian Garton	Date: 1/22/2008
Subject: Re: Interiors for MDC Roundhouse Pullman Palace Cars?

Hmm... So it's a buffet combine. Very interesting. Thank you very much for the info Don. Best Regards, Ian

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4908	From: erieberk	Date: 1/25/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Hi Chuck, Just got the chance to check out your latest listing version of Silver Streak. Great job, everything looks A - OK. As they say, anything worth while does not come without work. No doubt you probably want to take a break now, after all this. If you think including Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff -- Silver Streak is worthwhile, I have their catalog that Rich Koontz (owner) sent me in 1987. Every single one of their kit numbers and corresponding road names are the exact same ones that Walthers (792) used in their Later Production of Silver Streak kits later on, with one exception of not having the #360 undec Hopper. I might add that they don't have a #441 or #442 40' Ice Reefer, so we can probably presume that Walthers 792 did not have them either, which would explain missing road names for those Walthers 792 numbers you have. Their (Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) colors for each road name they produced had to be the same, and if its any indication from their catalog display sheets for Silver Streak, their reporting numbers for the cars were probably the same as the Walthers 929 kits they took over. Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff's display pages for their Silver Streak line are exact reprints as taken from the Walthers 929 catalogs of the early 1980's -- with the actual complete listing of these kits all found on one (back) page. Take care and thanks again. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I just can not tell the difference between the W and M. I will fix it soon. > Got to clean these glasses. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:37 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Chuck, Lookin' real good! There's just one thing you forgot -- > please correct the Walthers NEW Early Production -- 929-299 Walthers > Commemorative box car reporting marks to WKWX (not WKMX); it refers > to William K. Walthers. Many thanks again, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > OK, updated file in section. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:58 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would > be > > so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple > > more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I > meant > > to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy (lol). > > Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. > > > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 undec > > Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of > January > > 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, > color - > > Reefer Orange. > > > > Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart > > Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken > > them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 numbers > or > > roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. > > > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 > > Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. > > > > Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 > undec > > 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. > > > > And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the > 929- > > 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of this > > group). Please add. > > > > It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something > > useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would > be > > the same > > > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. > > > > > > Updated file at the group site. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. <http://community. > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over > thoroughly, > > > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over > the > > > weekend. This should about do it now. > > > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola > #929- > > > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer > Yellow. > > > > > > Thanks a bunch. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com, > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > HI Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, > > > sorry. I have > > > > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, > 301- > > > 303, > > > > 403-421 -- > > > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community. <http://community. > > <http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver > > > Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > > > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my > listing > > > are > > > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > > > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > > > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is > not > > > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to > #10 > > > are > > > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > > > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re- > do's > > > are > > > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > > > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > > > > > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between > the > > > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the > spread > > > > sheet and to find stuff). > > > > > > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have > > the > > > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit > styles. > > > > > > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had > > > none > > > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in > > > 1953 > > > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from > 1/9 > > > > (archive post #4844). > > > > > > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, > #127, > > > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO > > > numbers. > > > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, > > > #113 > > > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > > > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > > > > > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different > > > sizes > > > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all > > > jumbled > > > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > > > > descriptions -- that's enough. > > > > > > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 > > and > > > > #121 before #120. > > > > > > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after > > the > > > > reefers (#400's). > > > > > > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my > > > mistake > > > > on that). > > > > > > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod > Reefers > > > > (#700's). > > > > > > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as > Note > > > (1), > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits > > to > > > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > > > > > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- > > Wheel > > > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check > > back > > > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > > > > > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > > > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the > > separate > > > > size categories (with individual headings); their description > > says > > > it > > > > all. > > > > > > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF > you > > > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 - > - > > > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; > post > > > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403- 421 -- > > > > > post number 4896. > > > > > > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > > > > > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it - - > > > > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > > > > > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO > kits. > > > > > > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > > > > (#S400's). > > > > > > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > > > > > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers > > (#S700's). > > > > > > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > > > > > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New > > > Production > > > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > > > > > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > > > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > > > > > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 - - > > no > > > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > > > > > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after > the > > > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > > > > > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, > > > they're > > > > Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929- > > 323 > > > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit > > number > > > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the > > > word "Ice" > > > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the > > catalogs > > > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > > > > > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 > > through > > > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were > > all > > > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > > > > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there > > > will > > > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the > > bulk > > > of > > > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4909	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/25/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

I think Chuck & Ray deserve a VERY big "THANK YOU" for all the work they put into this. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 12:30 PM Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > Hi Chuck, Just got the chance to check out your latest listing > version of Silver Streak. Great job, everything looks A - OK. As > they say, anything worth while does not come without work. No doubt > you probably want to take a break now, after all this. If you think > including Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff -- Silver Streak is worthwhile, I have > their catalog that Rich Koontz (owner) sent me in 1987. Every single > one of their kit numbers and corresponding road names are the exact > same ones that Walthers (792) used in their Later Production of > Silver Streak kits later on, with one exception of not having the > #360 undec Hopper. I might add that they don't have a #441 or #442 > 40' Ice Reefer, so we can probably presume that Walthers 792 did not > have them either, which would explain missing road names for those > Walthers 792 numbers you have. > > Their (Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) colors for each road name they produced > had to be the same, and if its any indication from their catalog > display sheets for Silver Streak, their reporting numbers for the > cars were probably the same as the Walthers 929 kits they took over. > Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff's display pages for their Silver Streak line are > exact reprints as taken from the Walthers 929 catalogs of the early > 1980's -- with the actual complete listing of these kits all found on > one (back) page. Take care and thanks again. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> > wrote: >> >> Ray, >> >> I just can not tell the difference between the W and M. I will fix > it soon. >> Got to clean these glasses. >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf >> Of erieberk >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:37 PM >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak >> >> >> >> Hi Chuck, Lookin' real good! There's just one thing you forgot -- >> please correct the Walthers NEW Early Production -- 929-299 > Walthers >> Commemorative box car reporting marks to WKWX (not WKMX); it refers >> to William K. Walthers. Many thanks again, Ray >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, >> "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Ray, >> > >> > OK, updated file in section. >> > >> > Take care, >> > >> > >> > >> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> >> webshots.com/user/lordon104 >> > >> > >> > >> > _____ >> > >> > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com >> [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com] >> On Behalf >> > Of erieberk >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:58 AM >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com >> > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak >> > >> > >> > >> > Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would >> be >> > so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple >> > more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I >> meant >> > to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy > (lol). >> > Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. >> > >> > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 > undec >> > Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of >> January >> > 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, >> color - >> > Reefer Orange. >> > >> > Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart >> > Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken >> > them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 > numbers >> or >> > roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. >> > >> > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 >> > Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. >> > >> > Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 >> undec >> > 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. >> > >> > And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the >> 929- >> > 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of > this >> > group). Please add. >> > >> > It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something >> > useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> >> ps.com, >> > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would >> be >> > the same >> > > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. >> > > >> > > Updated file at the group site. >> > > >> > > Take care, >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> > > http://community. <http://community. >> <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104> >> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _____ >> > > >> > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> >> ps.com >> > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> >> ps.com] >> > On Behalf >> > > Of erieberk >> > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM >> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> >> ps.com >> > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over >> thoroughly, >> > > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over >> the >> > > weekend. This should about do it now. >> > > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola >> #929- >> > > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer >> Yellow. >> > > >> > > Thanks a bunch. Ray >> > > >> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> >> > ps.com, >> > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > HI Ray, >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > I think I got most of the changes. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, >> > > sorry. I have >> > > > checked them and also what I printed out. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, >> 301- >> > > 303, >> > > > 403-421 -- >> > > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > File on site now. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> > > > http://community. <http://community. >> > <http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> >> webshots.com/user/lordon104> >> webshots.com/user/lordon104> >> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > _____ >> > > > >> > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> >> > ps.com >> > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> >> > ps.com] >> > > On Behalf >> > > > Of erieberk >> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM >> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> >> > ps.com >> > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: > Silver >> > > Streak >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You > sure >> > > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my >> listing >> > > are >> > > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any > questions. >> > > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from > scratch >> > > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is >> not >> > > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to >> #10 >> > > are >> > > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The >> > > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re- >> do's >> > > are >> > > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for >> > > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. >> > > > >> > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between >> the >> > > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the >> spread >> > > > sheet and to find stuff). >> > > > >> > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just > have >> > the >> > > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit >> styles. >> > > > >> > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they > had >> > > none >> > > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced > in >> > > 1953 >> > > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from >> 1/9 >> > > > (archive post #4844). >> > > > >> > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, >> #127, >> > > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO >> > > numbers. >> > > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, > #109, >> > > #113 >> > > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing > (again, >> > > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). >> > > > >> > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into > different >> > > sizes >> > > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all >> > > jumbled >> > > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit >> > > > descriptions -- that's enough. >> > > > >> > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before > #116 >> > and >> > > > #121 before #120. >> > > > >> > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) > after >> > the >> > > > reefers (#400's). >> > > > >> > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my >> > > mistake >> > > > on that). >> > > > >> > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod >> Reefers >> > > > (#700's). >> > > > >> > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as >> Note >> > > (1), >> > > > etc. >> > > > >> > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer > Kits >> > to >> > > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). >> > > > >> > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- >> > Wheel >> > > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check >> > back >> > > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). >> > > > >> > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO > Standard >> > > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the >> > separate >> > > > size categories (with individual headings); their description >> > says >> > > it >> > > > all. >> > > > >> > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF >> you >> > > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and > S133 - >> - >> > > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; >> post >> > > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403- > 421 -- >> >> > > > post number 4896. >> > > > >> > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. >> > > > >> > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it - > - >> > > > Drover and Combination Caboose. >> > > > >> > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO >> kits. >> > > > >> > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' > Reefers >> > > > (#S400's). >> > > > >> > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. >> > > > >> > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers >> > (#S700's). >> > > > >> > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. >> > > > >> > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New >> > > Production >> > > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). >> > > > >> > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after > the >> > > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. >> > > > >> > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 - > - >> > no >> > > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). >> > > > >> > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after >> the >> > > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). >> > > > >> > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, >> > > they're >> > > > Walthers #792 numbers. >> > > > >> > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These > #929- >> > 323 >> > > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 > numbers. >> > > > >> > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit >> > number >> > > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the >> > > word "Ice" >> > > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the >> > catalogs >> > > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). >> > > > >> > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 >> > through >> > > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers > were >> > all >> > > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. >> > > > >> > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect > there >> > > will >> > > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the >> > bulk >> > > of >> > > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4910	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

Hi Ray, thanks.  The #360 covered hopper appears in the 1999 Walthers cat.  Yes, there is a gap in both the 1989 and 1999 Walthrs cat for 441 & 442.  Both the 1989 and 1999 say “Silver Streak division of Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff”   So I would think that the list in effect does have these numbers.  Maybe we should try and put a short history in the file?  With some dates?  Are we then duplicating something that HO seeker may have, though I have only seen the catalogs and instruction sheet there.   Don, you are welcome.  Any thoughts about the above.  Or should Ray and I move on to another maker?   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Hi Chuck, Just got the chance to check out your latest listing version of Silver Streak. Great job, everything looks A - OK. As they say, anything worth while does not come without work. No doubt you probably want to take a break now, after all this. If you think including Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff -- Silver Streak is worthwhile, I have their catalog that Rich Koontz (owner) sent me in 1987. Every single one of their kit numbers and corresponding road names are the exact same ones that Walthers (792) used in their Later Production of Silver Streak kits later on, with one exception of not having the #360 undec Hopper. I might add that they don't have a #441 or #442 40' Ice Reefer, so we can probably presume that Walthers 792 did not have them either, which would explain missing road names for those Walthers 792 numbers you have. Their (Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) colors for each road name they produced had to be the same, and if its any indication from their catalog display sheets for Silver Streak, their reporting numbers for the cars were probably the same as the Walthers 929 kits they took over. Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff's display pages for their Silver Streak line are exact reprints as taken from the Walthers 929 catalogs of the early 1980's -- with the actual complete listing of these kits all found on one (back) page. Take care and thanks again. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Ray, > > I just can not tell the difference between the W and M. I will fix it soon. > Got to clean these glasses. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:37 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Chuck, Lookin' real good! There's just one thing you forgot -- > please correct the Walthers NEW Early Production -- 929-299 Walthers > Commemorative box car reporting marks to WKWX (not WKMX); it refers > to William K. Walthers. Many thanks again, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > OK, updated file in section. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. < href="http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104">http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:58 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would > be > > so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple > > more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I > meant > > to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy (lol). > > Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. > > > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 undec > > Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of > January > > 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, > color - > > Reefer Orange . > > > > Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart > > Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken > > them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 numbers > or > > roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. > > > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 > > Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. > > > > Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 > undec > > 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. > > > > And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the > 929- > > 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of this > > group). Please add. > > > > It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something > > useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would > be > > the same > > > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. > > > > > > Updated file at the group site. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. < href="http://community.">http://community. > <http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> webshots.com/ user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over > thoroughly, > > > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over > the > > > weekend. This should about do it now. > > > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola > #929- > > > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer > Yellow. > > > > > > Thanks a bunch. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com, > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > HI Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, > > > sorry. I have > > > > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, > 301- > > > 303, > > > > 403-421 -- > > > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community. < href="http://community.">http://community. > > <http://community. < href="http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104">http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104> > > > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver > > > Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > > > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my > listing > > > are > > > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > > > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > > > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is > not > > > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to > #10 > > > are > > > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > > > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re- > do's > > > are > > > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > > > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > > > > > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between > the > > > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the > spread > > > > sheet and to find stuff). > > > > > > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have > > the > > > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit > styles. > > > > > > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had > > > none > > > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in > > > 1953 > > > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from > 1/9 > > > > (archive post #4844). > > > > > > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, > #127, > > > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO > > > numbers. > > > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, > > > #113 > > > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > > > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > > > > > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different > > > sizes > > > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all > > > jumbled > > > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > > > > descriptions -- that's enough. > > > > > > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 > > and > > > > #121 before #120. > > > > > > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after > > the > > > > reefers (#400's). > > > > > > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my > > > mistake > > > > on that). > > > > > > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod > Reefers > > > > (#700's). > > > > > > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as > Note > > > (1), > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits > > to > > > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > > > > > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- > > Wheel > > > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check > > back > > > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > > > > > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > > > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the > > separate > > > > size categories (with individual headings); their description > > says > > > it > > > > all. > > > > > > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF > you > > > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 - > - > > > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; > post > > > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403- 421 -- > > > > > post number 4896. > > > > > > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > > > > > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it - - > > > > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > > > > > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO > kits. > > > > > > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > > > > (#S400's). > > > > > > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > > > > > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers > > (#S700's). > > > > > > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > > > > > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New > > > Production > > > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > > > > > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > > > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > > > > > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 - - > > no > > > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > > > > > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after > the > > > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > > > > > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, > > > they're > > > > Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929- > > 323 > > > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit > > number > > > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the > > > word "Ice" > > > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the > > catalogs > > > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > > > > > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 > > through > > > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were > > all > > > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > > > > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there > > > will > > > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the > > bulk > > > of > > > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4911	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: spam warnings

Don--or anyone with the knowledge of these systems--why am I getting all these "spam" warnings--last message from Chuck had four lined up.  Is it on my end or yours?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4912	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Fw: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak

see what I mean?gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 9:18 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak Hi Ray, thanks.  The #360 covered hopper appears in the 1999 Walthers cat.  Yes, there is a gap in both the 1989 and 1999 Walthrs cat for 441 & 442.  Both the 1989 and 1999 say “Silver Streak division of Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff”   So I would think that the list in effect does have these numbers.  Maybe we should try and put a short history in the file?  With some dates?  Are we then duplicating something that HO seeker may have, though I have only seen the catalogs and instruction sheet there.   Don, you are welcome.  Any thoughts about the above.  Or should Ray and I move on to another maker?   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak   Hi Chuck, Just got the chance to check out your latest listing version of Silver Streak. Great job, everything looks A - OK. As they say, anything worth while does not come without work. No doubt you probably want to take a break now, after all this. If you think including Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff -- Silver Streak is worthwhile, I have their catalog that Rich Koontz (owner) sent me in 1987. Every single one of their kit numbers and corresponding road names are the exact same ones that Walthers (792) used in their Later Production of Silver Streak kits later on, with one exception of not having the #360 undec Hopper. I might add that they don't have a #441 or #442 40' Ice Reefer, so we can probably presume that Walthers 792 did not have them either, which would explain missing road names for those Walthers 792 numbers you have. Their (Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) colors for each road name they produced had to be the same, and if its any indication from their catalog display sheets for Silver Streak, their reporting numbers for the cars were probably the same as the Walthers 929 kits they took over. Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff's display pages for their Silver Streak line are exact reprints as taken from the Walthers 929 catalogs of the early 1980's -- with the actual complete listing of these kits all found on one (back) page. Take care and thanks again. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Ray, > > I just can not tell the difference between the W and M. I will fix it soon. > Got to clean these glasses. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:37 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Chuck, Lookin' real good! There's just one thing you forgot -- > please correct the Walthers NEW Early Production -- 929-299 Walthers > Commemorative box car reporting marks to WKWX (not WKMX); it refers > to William K. Walthers. Many thanks again, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > OK, updated file in section. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:58 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would > be > > so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple > > more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I > meant > > to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy (lol). > > Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. > > > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 undec > > Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of > January > > 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, > color - > > Reefer Orange . > > > > Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart > > Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken > > them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 numbers > or > > roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. > > > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 > > Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. > > > > Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 > undec > > 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. > > > > And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the > 929- > > 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of this > > group). Please add. > > > > It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something > > useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would > be > > the same > > > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. > > > > > > Updated file at the group site. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. <http://community. > <http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> webshots.com/ user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over > thoroughly, > > > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over > the > > > weekend. This should about do it now. > > > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola > #929- > > > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer > Yellow. > > > > > > Thanks a bunch. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com, > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > HI Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, > > > sorry. I have > > > > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, > 301- > > > 303, > > > > 403-421 -- > > > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community. <http://community. > > <http://community. <http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104> > > > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > ps.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver > > > Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You sure > > > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my > listing > > > are > > > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any questions. > > > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from scratch > > > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is > not > > > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to > #10 > > > are > > > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > > > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re- > do's > > > are > > > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > > > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > > > > > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between > the > > > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the > spread > > > > sheet and to find stuff). > > > > > > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just have > > the > > > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit > styles. > > > > > > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they had > > > none > > > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced in > > > 1953 > > > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from > 1/9 > > > > (archive post #4844). > > > > > > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, > #127, > > > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO > > > numbers. > > > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, #109, > > > #113 > > > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing (again, > > > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > > > > > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into different > > > sizes > > > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all > > > jumbled > > > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > > > > descriptions -- that's enough. > > > > > > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before #116 > > and > > > > #121 before #120. > > > > > > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) after > > the > > > > reefers (#400's). > > > > > > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my > > > mistake > > > > on that). > > > > > > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod > Reefers > > > > (#700's). > > > > > > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as > Note > > > (1), > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer Kits > > to > > > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > > > > > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- > > Wheel > > > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check > > back > > > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > > > > > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO Standard > > > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the > > separate > > > > size categories (with individual headings); their description > > says > > > it > > > > all. > > > > > > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF > you > > > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and S133 - > - > > > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; > post > > > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403- 421 -- > > > > > post number 4896. > > > > > > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > > > > > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it - - > > > > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > > > > > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO > kits. > > > > > > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' Reefers > > > > (#S400's). > > > > > > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > > > > > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers > > (#S700's). > > > > > > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > > > > > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New > > > Production > > > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > > > > > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after the > > > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > > > > > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929-233 - - > > no > > > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > > > > > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after > the > > > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > > > > > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929-293, > > > they're > > > > Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These #929- > > 323 > > > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit > > number > > > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the > > > word "Ice" > > > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the > > catalogs > > > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > > > > > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 > > through > > > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers were > > all > > > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > > > > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect there > > > will > > > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the > > bulk > > > of > > > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4913	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: spam warnings

I am getting them too...   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: Don--or anyone with the knowledge of these systems--why am I getting all these "spam" warnings--last message from Chuck had four lined up.  Is it on my end or yours? Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4914	From: jimbartelt@sbcglobal.net	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: spam warnings

ME too.   James Bartelt jimbartelt@...   Jim’s Railroad & Great Lakes Photo’s http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=1751079   METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org   METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2008 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 12:11:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] spam warnings I am getting them too...   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Don--or anyone with the knowledge of these systems--why am I getting all these "spam" warnings--last message from Chuck had four lined up.  Is it on my end or yours? Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4915	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: warnings

It is my end. My ISP adds the word [SPAM] in the subject line each time I receive the email and if I reply and then some one replies to mine that is three of them.  If I do not clean up the subject box it just keeps going.  It causes me no problem, so of course I forget it may cause others a problem.   Take care,     Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 1:09 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] spam warnings   Don--or anyone with the knowledge of these systems--why am I getting all these "spam" warnings--last message from Chuck had four lined up.  Is it on my end or yours?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4916	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Warnings

Or it could be my McAfee anti virus software that adds it to my incoming emails and then to my out going.  I will try and pay better attention to this.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4917	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: Warnings

A couple of points, gentlemen:   First, if your e-mail rig is set up normally, anything that that is sent to more than one addressee may show as "Spam," which wold be in the tital(maybe), but if you tell your server(Yahoo in my case) that it is not spam, it will stop adding that to the subject line. Another way to accomplish this is to add the group address to your addres list on your e-mail. The problem is in receiving mail, not in sending it.   If you do not remove the word "spam" from the subject line when sending, it stays there. The error can be repeated indefinitely.   Second, when the topic veers away fomr the original subject, please please please change the subject line. How many times have we all opened mail to see that the subject was no longer "**** Athearn," but a discussion about various methods of displaying lists, Athearn or not?   Keep the good work coming, but watch your outgoing mail subjects. I'll finish up with... so you don't think otherwise... this is one of my favorite(I mean it!) yahoo groups.   yours truly,   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: Or it could be my McAfee anti virus software that adds it to my incoming emails and then to my out going.  I will try and pay better attention to this.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4918	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: warnings

thanks--it sounds like there is something that reads these mass-addressed things as spam.  Wonder if it can be over-ridden? ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 11:13 AM Subject: [vintageHO] warnings It is my end. My ISP adds the word [SPAM] in the subject line each time I receive the email and if I reply and then some one replies to mine that is three of them.  If I do not clean up the subject box it just keeps going.  It causes me no problem, so of course I forget it may cause others a problem.   Take care,     Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 1:09 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] spam warnings   Don--or anyone with the knowledge of these systems--why am I getting all these "spam" warnings--last message from Chuck had four lined up.  Is it on my end or yours?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4919	From: erieberk	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak

Don, Many thanks for the "thanks," and you're quite welcome. Any work that turns out worthwhile in the end is a pleasure to have done - - after its done (lol). Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I think Chuck & Ray deserve a VERY big "THANK YOU" for all the work they put > into this. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 12:30 PM > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Chuck, Just got the chance to check out your latest listing > > version of Silver Streak. Great job, everything looks A - OK. As > > they say, anything worth while does not come without work. No doubt > > you probably want to take a break now, after all this. If you think > > including Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff -- Silver Streak is worthwhile, I have > > their catalog that Rich Koontz (owner) sent me in 1987. Every single > > one of their kit numbers and corresponding road names are the exact > > same ones that Walthers (792) used in their Later Production of > > Silver Streak kits later on, with one exception of not having the > > #360 undec Hopper. I might add that they don't have a #441 or #442 > > 40' Ice Reefer, so we can probably presume that Walthers 792 did not > > have them either, which would explain missing road names for those > > Walthers 792 numbers you have. > > > > Their (Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) colors for each road name they produced > > had to be the same, and if its any indication from their catalog > > display sheets for Silver Streak, their reporting numbers for the > > cars were probably the same as the Walthers 929 kits they took over. > > Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff's display pages for their Silver Streak line are > > exact reprints as taken from the Walthers 929 catalogs of the early > > 1980's -- with the actual complete listing of these kits all found on > > one (back) page. Take care and thanks again. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > >> > >> Ray, > >> > >> I just can not tell the difference between the W and M. I will fix > > it soon. > >> Got to clean these glasses. > >> > >> Take care, > >> > >> > >> > >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > >> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > >> > >> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf > >> Of erieberk > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:37 PM > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi Chuck, Lookin' real good! There's just one thing you forgot -- > >> please correct the Walthers NEW Early Production -- 929-299 > > Walthers > >> Commemorative box car reporting marks to WKWX (not WKMX); it refers > >> to William K. Walthers. Many thanks again, Ray > >> > >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com, > >> "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Ray, > >> > > >> > OK, updated file in section. > >> > > >> > Take care, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > >> > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > >> webshots.com/user/lordon104 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _____ > >> > > >> > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > >> [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com] > >> On Behalf > >> > Of erieberk > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:58 AM > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > >> > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would > >> be > >> > so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple > >> > more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I > >> meant > >> > to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy > > (lol). > >> > Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. > >> > > >> > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 > > undec > >> > Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of > >> January > >> > 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, > >> color - > >> > Reefer Orange. > >> > > >> > Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart > >> > Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken > >> > them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 > > numbers > >> or > >> > roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. > >> > > >> > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 > >> > Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. > >> > > >> > Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 > >> undec > >> > 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. > >> > > >> > And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the > >> 929- > >> > 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of > > this > >> > group). Please add. > >> > > >> > It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something > >> > useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >> ps.com, > >> > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would > >> be > >> > the same > >> > > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. > >> > > > >> > > Updated file at the group site. > >> > > > >> > > Take care, > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > >> > > http://community. <http://community. > >> <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > >> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _____ > >> > > > >> > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> ps.com > >> > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> ps.com] > >> > On Behalf > >> > > Of erieberk > >> > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM > >> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >> ps.com > >> > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over > >> thoroughly, > >> > > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over > >> the > >> > > weekend. This should about do it now. > >> > > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola > >> #929- > >> > > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer > >> Yellow. > >> > > > >> > > Thanks a bunch. Ray > >> > > > >> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> > ps.com, > >> > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > HI Ray, > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > I think I got most of the changes. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, > >> > > sorry. I have > >> > > > checked them and also what I printed out. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, > >> 301- > >> > > 303, > >> > > > 403-421 -- > >> > > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > File on site now. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > >> > > > http://community. <http://community. > >> > <http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > >> webshots.com/user/lordon104> > >> webshots.com/user/lordon104> > >> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > _____ > >> > > > > >> > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >> > ps.com > >> > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >> > ps.com] > >> > > On Behalf > >> > > > Of erieberk > >> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > >> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >> > ps.com > >> > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: > > Silver > >> > > Streak > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You > > sure > >> > > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my > >> listing > >> > > are > >> > > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any > > questions. > >> > > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from > > scratch > >> > > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is > >> not > >> > > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to > >> #10 > >> > > are > >> > > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > >> > > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re- > >> do's > >> > > are > >> > > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > >> > > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > >> > > > > >> > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between > >> the > >> > > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the > >> spread > >> > > > sheet and to find stuff). > >> > > > > >> > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just > > have > >> > the > >> > > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit > >> styles. > >> > > > > >> > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they > > had > >> > > none > >> > > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced > > in > >> > > 1953 > >> > > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from > >> 1/9 > >> > > > (archive post #4844). > >> > > > > >> > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, > >> #127, > >> > > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO > >> > > numbers. > >> > > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, > > #109, > >> > > #113 > >> > > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing > > (again, > >> > > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > >> > > > > >> > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into > > different > >> > > sizes > >> > > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all > >> > > jumbled > >> > > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > >> > > > descriptions -- that's enough. > >> > > > > >> > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before > > #116 > >> > and > >> > > > #121 before #120. > >> > > > > >> > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) > > after > >> > the > >> > > > reefers (#400's). > >> > > > > >> > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my > >> > > mistake > >> > > > on that). > >> > > > > >> > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod > >> Reefers > >> > > > (#700's). > >> > > > > >> > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as > >> Note > >> > > (1), > >> > > > etc. > >> > > > > >> > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer > > Kits > >> > to > >> > > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > >> > > > > >> > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- > >> > Wheel > >> > > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check > >> > back > >> > > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > >> > > > > >> > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO > > Standard > >> > > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the > >> > separate > >> > > > size categories (with individual headings); their description > >> > says > >> > > it > >> > > > all. > >> > > > > >> > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF > >> you > >> > > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and > > S133 - > >> - > >> > > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; > >> post > >> > > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403- > > 421 -- > >> > >> > > > post number 4896. > >> > > > > >> > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > >> > > > > >> > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it - > > - > >> > > > Drover and Combination Caboose. > >> > > > > >> > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO > >> kits. > >> > > > > >> > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' > > Reefers > >> > > > (#S400's). > >> > > > > >> > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > >> > > > > >> > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers > >> > (#S700's). > >> > > > > >> > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > >> > > > > >> > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New > >> > > Production > >> > > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > >> > > > > >> > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after > > the > >> > > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > >> > > > > >> > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929- 233 - > > - > >> > no > >> > > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > >> > > > > >> > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after > >> the > >> > > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > >> > > > > >> > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929- 293, > >> > > they're > >> > > > Walthers #792 numbers. > >> > > > > >> > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These > > #929- > >> > 323 > >> > > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 > > numbers. > >> > > > > >> > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit > >> > number > >> > > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the > >> > > word "Ice" > >> > > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the > >> > catalogs > >> > > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > >> > > > > >> > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 > >> > through > >> > > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers > > were > >> > all > >> > > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > >> > > > > >> > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect > > there > >> > > will > >> > > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the > >> > bulk > >> > > of > >> > > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4920	From: erieberk	Date: 1/26/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak

Hi Chuck, I could try to whip something up briefly about the history of S.S., with some dates, which might be of interest to some, although once you start that where does it end (do we also then include all the different boxes, etc. that were used?)? Your point does have merit though, if you think it would fit in with this Forum, and we could give it some thought but at least for now the most useful info is documented. As for the Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff Silver Streak, I would not make an additional chart for it, be instead merely put a notation at the end of Walthers that they succeeded Walthers Earlier production and preceeded Walthers Later production of this line, having all the same kit numbers/roadnames and colors, etc. as was later used by Walthers Later production. If you're looking to do another spread sheet on rolling stock from another manufacturer, I can give you either Varney metal or Binkley/Laconia-Lockhart in depth, using kit numbers, road names and reporting numbers. This last one was another that I also wrote an article on for "The Reporting Mark" publication of the HO SC&H (Scale Collectors & History) - SIG (of the NMRA) back in the late '80's, so I have that one all together ready to to. Neither of these two lists have car colors, but I have all the most important data (except for the reporting numbers on Binkley HOn3 -- not having trackage for it, I didn't collect the narrow gauge portion of the line.). Other manufacturers like IMP (International Model Products) metal or Main Line Models wood, which I have both almost complete, would have to wait until I could go through them all for the data. We could do shorter run makers though, like Megow or Ideal (or American Beauty - which I also wrote a piece on) or A-C/L-W, etc., at some point in time. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, thanks. The #360 covered hopper appears in the 1999 Walthers cat. > Yes, there is a gap in both the 1989 and 1999 Walthrs cat for 441 & 442. > Both the 1989 and 1999 say "Silver Streak division of Ye Olde Huff- N-Puff" > So I would think that the list in effect does have these numbers. Maybe we > should try and put a short history in the file? With some dates? Are we > then duplicating something that HO seeker may have, though I have only seen > the catalogs and instruction sheet there. > > > > Don, you are welcome. Any thoughts about the above. Or should Ray and I > move on to another maker? > > > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 1:31 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > Hi Chuck, Just got the chance to check out your latest listing > version of Silver Streak. Great job, everything looks A - OK. As > they say, anything worth while does not come without work. No doubt > you probably want to take a break now, after all this. If you think > including Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff -- Silver Streak is worthwhile, I have > their catalog that Rich Koontz (owner) sent me in 1987. Every single > one of their kit numbers and corresponding road names are the exact > same ones that Walthers (792) used in their Later Production of > Silver Streak kits later on, with one exception of not having the > #360 undec Hopper. I might add that they don't have a #441 or #442 > 40' Ice Reefer, so we can probably presume that Walthers 792 did not > have them either, which would explain missing road names for those > Walthers 792 numbers you have. > > Their (Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) colors for each road name they produced > had to be the same, and if its any indication from their catalog > display sheets for Silver Streak, their reporting numbers for the > cars were probably the same as the Walthers 929 kits they took over. > Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff's display pages for their Silver Streak line are > exact reprints as taken from the Walthers 929 catalogs of the early > 1980's -- with the actual complete listing of these kits all found on > one (back) page. Take care and thanks again. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > I just can not tell the difference between the W and M. I will fix > it soon. > > Got to clean these glasses. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:37 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, Lookin' real good! There's just one thing you forgot -- > > please correct the Walthers NEW Early Production -- 929-299 > Walthers > > Commemorative box car reporting marks to WKWX (not WKMX); it refers > > to William K. Walthers. Many thanks again, Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > OK, updated file in section. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. <http://community. > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of erieberk > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:58 AM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Looks like we're almost there (who'd have thought it would > > be > > > so difficult <g>). Well, this should about do it; found a couple > > > more things that weren't copied right, and a few more things I > > meant > > > to include earlier but left out -- think I'm getting punchy > (lol). > > > Anyway, here's what needs attention, and this has got to do it. > > > > > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please correct 929-450 > undec > > > Reefer to read Reefer Yellow as the color, as per my list of > > January > > > 10th. In this same section, please add #929-400 undec Reefer, > > color - > > > Reefer Orange. > > > > > > Under the Walthers New Early Production -- remove these Hart > > > Gondolas -- #929-161 through 929-165. I guess you must have taken > > > them from Walthers (792) Later Production; they're not 929 > numbers > > or > > > roadnames. Sorry, I didn't catch that yesterday. > > > > > > Under Walthers NEW Early Production -- pleaase correct 929-299 > > > Walthers Commemorative 40' box car to read WKWX as per the list. > > > > > > Also under Walthers NEW Early Production -- please add #929-300 > > undec > > > 50' Double Door Box Car - color; Box Car Red. > > > > > > And last, under Walthers NEW Early Production -- I found that the > > 929- > > > 356 SP/T&NO 50' DD box car is Box Car Red (same as the rest of > this > > > group). Please add. > > > > > > It was a struggle with this one, but I think we've got something > > > useful. Thanks for all your help. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com, > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, I copied the titles from the MDC file so that all would > > be > > > the same > > > > format and that is what we did with that one. No other reason. > > > > > > > > Updated file at the group site. > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > http://community. <http://community. > > <http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com] > > > On Behalf > > > > Of erieberk > > > > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23 PM > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > ps.com > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, This listing needed some time to be gone over > > thoroughly, > > > > to be able to clear up the remaining issues -- which I did over > > the > > > > weekend. This should about do it now. > > > > (7) Under Walthers NEW Early Production, include Hart Gondola > > #929- > > > > 500 undec Box Car Red, and 40' Reefer #929-400 undec Reefer > > Yellow. > > > > > > > > Thanks a bunch. Ray > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com, > > > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > HI Ray, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I got most of the changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3), did you want me to put it there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4), I do not find 105, 106, 109, & 114 on the earlier posts, > > > > sorry. I have > > > > > checked them and also what I printed out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14) the last section " Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, > > 301- > > > > 303, > > > > > 403-421 -- > > > > > > post number 4896." Need some help with this line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24), Which numbers did you want removed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 29), I missed 929-421, what is it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > File on site now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > > > http://community. <http://community. > > > <http://community. <http://community. > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com] > > > > On Behalf > > > > > Of erieberk > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:45 PM > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > > ps.com > > > > > Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: > Silver > > > > Streak > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck, Alright, I checked out your latest spreadsheet. You > sure > > > > > know how to make a lot of work for me (LOL). Could be my > > listing > > > > are > > > > > not too easy to follow; let me know if you have any > questions. > > > > > Almost looks like we might be better off starting from > scratch > > > > > <grin>. I came up with a lot of corrections, but the work is > > not > > > > > insurmountable -- we'll get there yet! From suggestion #2 to > > #10 > > > > are > > > > > for Pacific HO only. Correction #1 is for everything. The > > > > > corrections for Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO re- > > do's > > > > are > > > > > listed as #11 to #21. The corrections from #22 to #29 are for > > > > > Walthers 929 New Early Production. > > > > > > > > > > (1) Add space between the groups, and a line of space between > > the > > > > > Headings and their Group Kits (makes it easier to read the > > spread > > > > > sheet and to find stuff). > > > > > > > > > > (2) Please eliminate all the columns for "Style" and just > have > > > the > > > > > Heading for the Kit Style at the top of each group of kit > > styles. > > > > > > > > > > (3) Please remove the Bobber Cabooses from Pacific HO; they > had > > > > none > > > > > (except for one undec, caboose red 4-wheeler they introduced > in > > > > 1953 > > > > > which was very short lived) -- see my list of Pacific HO from > > 1/9 > > > > > (archive post #4844). > > > > > > > > > > (4) Remove Pacific HO numbers #122, #123, #124, #125, #126, > > #127, > > > > > #128, #130, #131, #132 and #133 -- these are not Pacific HO > > > > numbers. > > > > > What happened to these kits??? -- #105, #106, #107, #108, > #109, > > > > #113 > > > > > and #114; these are missing from the Pacific HO listing > (again, > > > > > please refer back to my Pacific HO list for these kits). > > > > > > > > > > (5) Please do not separate the Standard Cabooses into > different > > > > sizes > > > > > (24', 28', etc.); that resulted in the kit numbers being all > > > > jumbled > > > > > up and very hard to follow. The sizes appear with the kit > > > > > descriptions -- that's enough. > > > > > > > > > > (6) Keep the kit numbers in order -- you have #117 before > #116 > > > and > > > > > #121 before #120. > > > > > > > > > > (7) Move the Pacific HO Hart Gondolas (#500 through #506) > after > > > the > > > > > reefers (#400's). > > > > > > > > > > (8) Change the DD Auto Cars #301 to #303 to 40' on those (my > > > > mistake > > > > > on that). > > > > > > > > > > (9) Move the MOW (#801 to #808) cars after the Truss-Rod > > Reefers > > > > > (#700's). > > > > > > > > > > !10) You can change the numbering for the notes to start as > > Note > > > > (1), > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > (11) Change the Note for the Walthers Silver Streak Reefer > Kits > > > to > > > > > indicate they start after #421 (not #419). > > > > > > > > > > (12) Eliminate the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO 4- > > > Wheel > > > > > BobberCaboose re-do kits. Pacific HO never made them -- check > > > back > > > > > to my Pacific HO listing if needed). > > > > > > > > > > (13) Put the Walthers 929 Early Production Pacific HO > Standard > > > > > Cabooses in numerical kit number order. Eliminate all the > > > separate > > > > > size categories (with individual headings); their description > > > says > > > > it > > > > > all. > > > > > > > > > > (14) Remove the following: S123's (both the MILW and the ATSF > > you > > > > > have), S124, S125, S126, S127, S128, S130, S131, S132 and > S133 - > > - > > > > > these were never produced by Pacific HO -- recheck my list; > > post > > > > > #4893. Also, see my list for #201, 207, 220, 301-303, 403- > 421 -- > > > > > > > post number 4896. > > > > > > > > > > (15) Change ERIE Caboose #S122 to #S120. > > > > > > > > > > (16) Combine #S107 with #S108 under one heading as I have it - > - > > > > > Drover and Combination Caboose. > > > > > > > > > > (17) Remove #S130 through #S133; they were never Pacific HO > > kits. > > > > > > > > > > (18) Move Hart Gondolas (#S500 to #S506) after the 40' > Reefers > > > > > (#S400's). > > > > > > > > > > (19) Change the DD 50' Auto Car (#S300 to #S303) to read 40'. > > > > > > > > > > (20) Move MOW #S801 to #S806 after the Truss-Rod Reefers > > > (#S700's). > > > > > > > > > > (21) You can move "SCMX" back to the description box. > > > > > > > > > > (22) Please change the heading to Walthers (929) Early New > > > > Production > > > > > (form Walthers Early Production -- New Production). > > > > > > > > > > (23) Move Bobber Cabooses (#929-175 through #929-187) after > the > > > > > Drovers and Combination Cabooses. > > > > > > > > > > (24) Remove these Hart Gondolas -- #929-228 through #929- 233 - > - > > > no > > > > > such animals (they're Walthers 729 numbers?). > > > > > > > > > > (25) Move the 36' Box Cars (#929-228 through #929-233) after > > the > > > > > Standard 40' Box Cars, and before the #929-900's (Truss Rod). > > > > > > > > > > (26) Remove these DD 40' Box Cars: #929-290 through #929- 293, > > > > they're > > > > > Walthers #792 numbers. > > > > > > > > > > (27) Change the MOW numbers to #929-801 to #929806. These > #929- > > > 323 > > > > > to #929-328 are no-such animals; they're Walthers #792 > numbers. > > > > > > > > > > (28) You can include any Mechanical Reefers in umerical kit > > > number > > > > > order in with all the rest of the Reefers, and remove the > > > > word "Ice" > > > > > from the heading. They were never described as such in the > > > catalogs > > > > > (even though most were ice bunker reefers). > > > > > > > > > > (29) Remove the Mechanical 40' Reefer heading for #929-422 > > > through > > > > > #929-433, and run them after #929-421. These later numbers > were > > > all > > > > > ice bunker reefers, not mechanical. > > > > > > > > > > Well that's it again -- enough to keep you busy. I expect > there > > > > will > > > > > be more corrections, but if these are made that should be the > > > bulk > > > > of > > > > > it (maybe, hopefully, even all of it). Take care, Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4921	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Silver Streak

Hi Ray,   So that we do not end up writing a book, I will add a notation as you suggest.  You can forward which ever is easier.  If I had access to the Reporting Mark article, I could work from that and save you some keypunching.  I will check the NMRA site later to look for it.  Would it be easier to make copies and mail them to me?  I have to dig up my old catalogs and see what I can find.  But I am building bench work so I will work on this in between glue ups.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 11:09 PM To: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [ vintageHO ] Re: Silver Streak   Hi Chuck, I could try to whip something up briefly about the history of S.S., with some dates, which might be of interest to some, although once you start that where does it end (do we also then include all the different boxes, etc. that were used?)? Your point does have merit though, if you think it would fit in with this Forum, and we could give it some thought but at least for now the most useful info is documented. As for the Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff Silver Streak, I would not make an additional chart for it, be instead merely put a notation at the end of Walthers that they succeeded Walthers Earlier production and preceeded Walthers Later production of this line, having all the same kit numbers/roadnames and colors, etc. as was later used by Walthers Later production. If you're looking to do another spread sheet on rolling stock from another manufacturer, I can give you either Varney metal or Binkley/Laconia- Lockhart in depth, using kit numbers, road names and reporting numbers. This last one was another that I also wrote an article on for "The Reporting Mark" publication of the HO SC&H (Scale Collectors & History) - SIG (of the NMRA) back in the late '80's, so I have that one all together ready to to. Neither of these two lists have car colors, but I have all the most important data (except for the reporting numbers on Binkley HOn3 -- not having trackage for it, I didn't collect the narrow gauge portion of the line.). Other manufacturers like IMP (International Model Products) metal or Main Line Models wood, which I have both almost complete, would have to wait until I could go through them all for the data. We could do shorter run makers though, like Megow or Ideal (or American Beauty - which I also wrote a piece on) or A-C/L-W, etc., at some point in time. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4922	From: rcjge	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Endless amounts of untrimmed text.....

Hi Gentlemen: Been reading this group for some time and I've never seen (I belong to about 6) one have so much trouble grasping the concept of trimming off all the back and forth text detritus. I receive a digest version each day and today, there was about 10% content and 90% repeat after repeat from guys who don't know how (?) to select text and delete it. I can understand, saving the last message for context but beyond that, it's messy and time wasting to get through all that verbal landfill to find the up to date, particularly since some top-post while others bottom-post. Thanks for listening! Pax, Gareth

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4923	From: Lee Stoermer	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: spam warnings

All, it also comes from not trimming your posts. When you hit reply you are adding your message onto everything else that is there, and so your email will see all the other links and addresses and then flag it as spam and or send it into your spam/bulk folder. When you reply to someone, it is better to copy out a piece of the message you are replying to, then send it off by pasting the copied portion onto a new email and then sending it. Your system will like it much better, as will all those reading the posts that don't have to wade through the longer than necessary message postings. :) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4924	From: kilbeggan68	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Just the facts

I signed up to the group for pertinent and technical info.I didnt think it would be an avenue for personal discussion between a few members.They should do that offpost.Please keep this site pertinent to the faith.Pease excuse my directness on this matter.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4925	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts

----- Original Message ----- From: "kilbeggan68" <wedfrentz@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Just the facts >I signed up to the group for pertinent and technical info.I didnt think > it would be an avenue for personal discussion between a few > members.They should do that offpost.Please keep this site pertinent to > the faith.Pease excuse my directness on this matter. It's the nature of groups to get social once in a while. I do NOT see a lot of personal discussion here, unlike many groups I've been in. This is a great bunch of guys who share an interest in collecting and running vintage HO, and is one of the easiest groups I have to moderate because there is NOT a lot of "off topic" discussion. I AM the listowner/moderator. If you have a problem with how the list is being run, please take it up with ME. My personal email address is in my signature line. Thanks Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4926	From: erieberk	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts

Thank you Don, for setting the facts straight. When I first read this "complaint" earlier today I was completely turned off. Your post has restored my faith in at least your faction of this group and those who might see matters from this standpoint. I'm still turned off by the attitude of those who might feel these discussions necessary for us to be able to correctly finish such technical spread sheets are too burdensome for them to have to put up with, and I will refrain from doing any more. It is not as if these discussions involved ANY personal exchanges between myself any anyone else, but were SOLELY in an effort to factually complete spread sheets which would ONLY be to BENEFIT the group, INCLUDING the COMPLAINTANT if he so chooses to make use of it. To view these discussions as personal exchanges and preferring posts of only pertinent and technical information appears to me as nothing but selfish, with a complete disregard for what it takes to try to present such technical information to the group. I don't need to have to do all this work and referencing, nor do I think that our spread-sheet poster who helped me in this project really needed to do all the work he did. We were doing this for the enjoyment of the group. Its a real shame that there are members who can't put up with the intricacies of having to make up these spread sheets (for their own good). Perhaps the complaintant would like to post some technical spread sheets so he wouldn't have to put up with our "SPAM." Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kilbeggan68" <wedfrentz@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:11 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Just the facts > > > >I signed up to the group for pertinent and technical info.I didnt think > > it would be an avenue for personal discussion between a few > > members.They should do that offpost.Please keep this site pertinent to > > the faith.Pease excuse my directness on this matter. > > It's the nature of groups to get social once in a while. I do NOT see a lot > of personal discussion here, unlike many groups I've been in. > This is a great bunch of guys who share an interest in collecting and > running vintage HO, and is one of the easiest groups I have to moderate > because there is NOT a lot of "off topic" discussion. > > I AM the listowner/moderator. If you have a problem with how the list is > being run, please take it up with ME. My personal email address is in my > signature line. > > Thanks > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4927	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 7:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Just the facts > Thank you Don, for setting the facts straight. When I first read > this "complaint" earlier today I was completely turned off. Your > post has restored my faith in at least your faction of this group and > those who might see matters from this standpoint. I'm still turned > off by the attitude of those who might feel these discussions > necessary for us to be able to correctly finish such technical spread > sheets are too burdensome for them to have to put up with, and I will > refrain from doing any more. It is not as if these discussions > involved ANY personal exchanges between myself any anyone else, but > were SOLELY in an effort to factually complete spread sheets which > would ONLY be to BENEFIT the group, INCLUDING the COMPLAINTANT if he > so chooses to make use of it. To view these discussions as personal > exchanges and preferring posts of only pertinent and technical > information appears to me as nothing but selfish, with a complete > disregard for what it takes to try to present such technical > information to the group. I don't need to have to do all this work > and referencing, nor do I think that our spread-sheet poster who > helped me in this project really needed to do all the work he did. > We were doing this for the enjoyment of the group. Its a real shame > that there are members who can't put up with the intricacies of > having to make up these spread sheets (for their own good). Perhaps > the complaintant would like to post some technical spread sheets so > he wouldn't have to put up with our "SPAM." Ray I for one was glad that you guys DID post your discussions in the group. It provides the possibility for anyone else who had pertinent information to add anything they might know. The strength of the group is in the knowledge of our members, and I don't know of any other group where those members are so willing to SHARE their knowledge with the rest of us. I know I for one have learned a LOT in the almost four years we've been here (February 21 is our fourth anniversary), and have made some wonderful online friends. Thanks again Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4928	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts

As a "PS" to my previous post, checking the logs, the fellow who complained left the group this noon. His loss. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 7:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Just the facts > Thank you Don, for setting the facts straight. When I first read > this "complaint" earlier today I was completely turned off. Your > post has restored my faith in at least your faction of this group and > those who might see matters from this standpoint. I'm still turned > off by the attitude of those who might feel these discussions > necessary for us to be able to correctly finish such technical spread > sheets are too burdensome for them to have to put up with, and I will > refrain from doing any more. It is not as if these discussions > involved ANY personal exchanges between myself any anyone else, but > were SOLELY in an effort to factually complete spread sheets which > would ONLY be to BENEFIT the group, INCLUDING the COMPLAINTANT if he > so chooses to make use of it. To view these discussions as personal > exchanges and preferring posts of only pertinent and technical > information appears to me as nothing but selfish, with a complete > disregard for what it takes to try to present such technical > information to the group. I don't need to have to do all this work > and referencing, nor do I think that our spread-sheet poster who > helped me in this project really needed to do all the work he did. > We were doing this for the enjoyment of the group. Its a real shame > that there are members who can't put up with the intricacies of > having to make up these spread sheets (for their own good). Perhaps > the complaintant would like to post some technical spread sheets so > he wouldn't have to put up with our "SPAM." Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4929	From: oahurailway	Date: 1/28/2008
Subject: YOUR WORK IS MOST APPRECIATED!

Please keep up the good work Ray! It's most appreciated! And thankyou Don for a GREAT site! Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4930	From: Jack Priller	Date: 1/28/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts

I would like to add that Mr. D. really does know about groups where personal discussion frequently runs rampent from time to time; I'm on at least one with him. Anybody, besides Don and myself, who remember a usenet group: rec.models.railroad? Maybe that's why he made me a moderator here. Easiest moderating 'job' I have, out of the 9 groups that I do that sort of thing for. Jack Priller, Moderator Still loose in El Paso, TX --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > It's the nature of groups to get social once in a while. I do NOT see a lot > of personal discussion here, unlike many groups I've been in. > This is a great bunch of guys who share an interest in collecting and > running vintage HO, and is one of the easiest groups I have to moderate > because there is NOT a lot of "off topic" discussion. > > I AM the listowner/moderator. If you have a problem with how the list is > being run, please take it up with ME. My personal email address is in my > signature line. > > Thanks > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4931	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/28/2008
Subject: attn Don

Don--did I screw up?  I spotted a die cast Athearn crane on a somewhat obscure site and forwarded it to the list with the thought that someone might be interested--I have no stake in it--but I know it is an unusual piece--but I have not seen it show up, so I wondered if I screwed up by doing so--if I did, I apologize and will not do it again.   Glenn Joesten   BTW--I have one in my collection already--or I wouldn't have shared the info.     gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4932	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: attn Don

No, I checked the message logs and there's no record that it even made it as far as Yahoo.    Sometimes it depends how the message is forwarded.  I know I tried to forward a link to an eBay auction once that I thought the group would enjoy, and it never went through because it showed as being sent by eBay, and eBay isn't a group member <G>.  Links and the occasional for sale post are not a problem at all as long as they're "vimtage" equipment.    The ones I have a problem with are the people who do nothing but regularly post long "For Sale" lists for stuff that's not within our area of interest.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY         ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 10:54 PM Subject: [vintageHO] attn Don Don--did I screw up?  I spotted a die cast Athearn crane on a somewhat obscure site and forwarded it to the list with the thought that someone might be interested--I have no stake in it--but I know it is an unusual piece--but I have not seen it show up, so I wondered if I screwed up by doing so--if I did, I apologize and will not do it again.   Glenn Joesten   BTW--I have one in my collection already--or I wouldn't have shared the info.     gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4933	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > As a "PS" to my previous post, checking the logs, the fellow who complained > left the group this noon. His loss. > > Don > I belong to many groups. I feel that the discussions on this group are very much on-topic with maybe a little "humanism" tossed in. For which I am thankful. It makes for a friendly bunch and enjoyable reading. I belong to a model car group that posts 75 to 125 messages a day, of which 75% are personal and/or repeats of each other. If it wasn't for the occasional bits of valuable information I get from a few members, I would leave it. As it is, I only read messages from those few members and therefore, I am sure, miss other points of interests posted by others. But there is no way I have time to open and read that many useless messages. Don, moderators and members, keep up the good work. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4934	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Just the facts

I’d like to add my thanks to Ray and Chuck and any others who contributed to the compilation of valuable and interesting data on vintage HO freight cars.  I too was puzzled by the comment on too much personal chatter since the only emails I saw not directly related to trains were about refining and correcting the listings and about making our on-line communication more efficient.  I wish we had asked the person who made that comment what he meant by personal chatter.  I’m new to discussion groups and belong to only two.  The other one doesn’t chatter or discuss very much at all.  Which one do you think is my favorite?  Best wishes, and thanks again to the guys who put in all of that work.                                                                                                                                                     Lou Greiff On 1/29/08 10:45 AM, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > As a "PS" to my previous post, checking the logs, the fellow who complained > left the group this noon.  His loss. > > Don > I belong to many groups. I feel that the discussions on this group are very much on-topic with maybe a little "humanism" tossed in. For which I am thankful. It makes for a friendly bunch and enjoyable reading. I belong to a model car group that posts 75 to 125 messages a day, of which 75% are personal and/or repeats of each other. If it wasn't for the occasional bits of valuable information I get from a few members, I would leave it. As it is, I only read messages from those few members and therefore, I am sure, miss other points of interests posted by others. But there is no way I have time to open and read that many useless messages. Don, moderators and members, keep up the good work. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4935	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: attn Don

OK--well--it's still up there--ends at 1252 tomorrow--# 230216171348   Die cast Athearn 200-ton crane. Looks like all the major castings are there, parts of the newer plastic one could finish it out,  As I said--I have no interest in this--I have one--it is an unusual piece.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 4:05 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] attn Don No, I checked the message logs and there's no record that it even made it as far as Yahoo.    Sometimes it depends how the message is forwarded.  I know I tried to forward a link to an eBay auction once that I thought the group would enjoy, and it never went through because it showed as being sent by eBay, and eBay isn't a group member <G>.  Links and the occasional for sale post are not a problem at all as long as they're "vimtage" equipment.    The ones I have a problem with are the people who do nothing but regularly post long "For Sale" lists for stuff that's not within our area of interest.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY         ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 10:54 PM Subject: [vintageHO] attn Don Don--did I screw up?  I spotted a die cast Athearn crane on a somewhat obscure site and forwarded it to the list with the thought that someone might be interested--I have no stake in it--but I know it is an unusual piece--but I have not seen it show up, so I wondered if I screwed up by doing so--if I did, I apologize and will not do it again.   Glenn Joesten   BTW--I have one in my collection already--or I wouldn't have shared the info.     gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4936	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Mantua Memories

Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- -John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4937	From: cnj999	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote: > >But today I wish I had still the > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > You bet. They turn up on eBay fairly often, as do the even earlier paper-sided examples. I've even seen a few offering of the "Hook-and- Loop" couplers up for auction! Personally, I tend to favor the rather more unique Laconia and Ambroid rolling stock, like the Mathieson Dry Ice reefer, the Nitric Acid tank car, or the Helium car. While it's difficult to justify more than one of these odd-ball cars in any given consist, which ever one I do choose to include truly stands out and garners the attention of vistors. CNJ999

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4938	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of sheet metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card overlays finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic body with a die cast floor/frame. Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with plastic roof and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer only, with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a hook & loop coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > -John > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4939	From: John Barlow	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)

Dear CNJ999,   Nothing really odd about a Helium tank car or the others in a consist. I actually saw one of those buggers in a private owner's colors under an overpass in San Francisco in August 1972 in San Francisco, as I had just processed off Active Duty with the Air Force at Travis AFB up north of there. I have 35mm slides of it somewhere, but "privatizing" the car is acceptable. After Ambroid, somebody did it in plastic...AHM?   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) cnj999 <jbortle@...> wrote: --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@. ..> wrote: > >But today I wish I had still the > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > You bet. They turn up on eBay fairly often, as do the even earlier paper-sided examples. I've even seen a few offering of the "Hook-and- Loop" couplers up for auction! Personally, I tend to favor the rather more unique Laconia and Ambroid rolling stock, like the Mathieson Dry Ice reefer, the Nitric Acid tank car, or the Helium car. While it's difficult to justify more than one of these odd-ball cars in any given consist, which ever one I do choose to include truly stands out and garners the attention of vistors. CNJ999 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4940	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Mantua memories ?

Yes AHM did release a helium tank car , did anyone release an ethyl tank car [tetraethyl lead additve] ? It was much smaller but distinctive in appearance [painted yellow/leaf green] . HH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4941	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)

I grew up in the SF Bay Area--US Navy had a big "Airship" base at Moffet Field, near Mountain View.  Used to see the helium cars in there all the time. Huge hangar was originally for the Navy's two dirigibles Akron and Macon.  Macon is on the bottom of the Pacific off Point Sur.  Then they used the facility for ordinary Blimps.  ----- Original Message ----- From: John Barlow To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories) Dear CNJ999,   Nothing really odd about a Helium tank car or the others in a consist. I actually saw one of those buggers in a private owner's colors under an overpass in San Francisco in August 1972 in San Francisco, as I had just processed off Active Duty with the Air Force at Travis AFB up north of there. I have 35mm slides of it somewhere, but "privatizing" the car is acceptable. After Ambroid, somebody did it in plastic...AHM?   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) cnj999 <jbortle@...> wrote: --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@. ..> wrote: > >But today I wish I had still the > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > You bet. They turn up on eBay fairly often, as do the even earlier paper-sided examples. I've even seen a few offering of the "Hook-and- Loop" couplers up for auction! Personally, I tend to favor the rather more unique Laconia and Ambroid rolling stock, like the Mathieson Dry Ice reefer, the Nitric Acid tank car, or the Helium car. While it's difficult to justify more than one of these odd-ball cars in any given consist, which ever one I do choose to include truly stands out and garners the attention of vistors. CNJ999 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4942	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi John: Those "hook and loop" couplers were probably old Baker couplers. Very reliable, but terribly unscalish and unprototypical. They survive today on German HO Fleischmann trains. FYI, Baker couplers are what preceded the X2f (so called "NMRA" coupler of the later 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s). I believe Roco still uses them too on their domestic Austrian line of trains. The Roco versions are much smaller than the old US counterparts, and are such that when coupled into a train, are nearly invisible, particularly on their passenger trains. They hide under the cars diaphrams. They work wonderfully -- too bad the morons who make stuff for the US market haven't discovered them yet. I personally wish the old Baker couplers were still around. After having putzed around with McHenrys, and some of the Kadees, they would be a welcome sight to behold once again, LOL. For long trains and continous running (shows, exhibits, etc), they stay coupled with no false uncouplings or break aways, such as we experience here in the US. T'anks for the memories! Dave F ************** Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4943	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi John,     These cars do show up at train meets from time to time.  I found one last Sunday at a very small TTOS (tinplate) train meet in the Buffalo, NY area.  It’s an all-metal boxcar with paper sides.  The 1950s customer bought the generic car and then chose the paper sides from the selection available at the hobby shop.  Mine is Canadian National with the green maple leaf logo.  The car is perfect, but the paper sides have bowed slightly from humidity.  Try searching for Mantua Metal on ebay and see what comes up.     Happy hunting.                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 1/29/08 4:46 PM, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote:     Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- -John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4944	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

I don't know what it is about the Canadian National sides on Mantua.  I have seen and own TWO Mantua original boxcars, and BOTH were the CN (one though the sides were so damaged I couldn't save them and had to do a repaint).  Now you have ONE and it's a CN!  Did they offer any other road names? :-)   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories Hi John,     These cars do show up at train meets from time to time.  I found one last Sunday at a very small TTOS (tinplate) train meet in the Buffalo, NY area.  It’s an all-metal boxcar with paper sides.  The 1950s customer bought the generic car and then chose the paper sides from the selection available at the hobby shop.  Mine is Canadian National with the green maple leaf logo.  The car is perfect, but the paper sides have bowed slightly from humidity.  Try searching for Mantua Metal on ebay and see what comes up.     Happy hunting.                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 1/29/08 4:46 PM, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote:     Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- -John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4945	From: Rick Jones	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Louis Greiff wrote: > Hi John, > > These cars do show up at train meets from time to time. I found one > last Sunday at a very small TTOS (tinplate) train meet in the Buffalo, > NY area. It’s an all-metal boxcar with paper sides. The 1950s customer > bought the generic car and then chose the paper sides from the selection > available at the hobby shop. Mine is Canadian National with the green > maple leaf logo. The car is perfect, but the paper sides have bowed > slightly from humidity. Try searching for Mantua Metal on ebay and see > what comes up. > Happy hunting. > Greiff > > > On 1/29/08 4:46 PM, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote: > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- Serendipity. I just happened to stumble across an online dealer today who claims to have quite a few old kits available. Here's the link: http://www.nixonenterprises.com/default.htm Not sure I'm willing to pay most of the prices he's asking though. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ How is it that we put men on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4946	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Good question Don.  I assumed mine was CN because a lot of Canadian stuff shows up in the Buffalo area as you might imagine.  The CNs are my only boxcar sides, but I’ve seen many Mantua gondola car sides meant to be attached to a brass car body, and those are lettered for a wide variety of roads.                                                                                                                                             Lou On 1/29/08 11:22 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:     I don't know what it is about the Canadian National sides on Mantua.  I have seen and own TWO Mantua original boxcars, and BOTH were the CN (one though the sides were so damaged I couldn't save them and had to do a repaint).  Now you have ONE and it's a CN!  Did they offer any other road names? :-) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message -----   From:  Louis  Greiff <mailto:louie113@...>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com   Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:50  PM   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua  Memories   Hi John,     These cars do  show up at train meets from time to time.  I found one last Sunday at a  very small TTOS (tinplate) train meet in the Buffalo, NY area.  It’s an  all-metal boxcar with paper sides.  The 1950s customer bought the generic  car and then chose the paper sides from the selection available at the hobby  shop.  Mine is Canadian National with the green maple leaf logo.   The car is perfect, but the paper sides have bowed slightly from  humidity.  Try searching for Mantua Metal on ebay and see what comes  up.     Happy  hunting.                                                                                                                             Lou  Greiff On 1/29/08 4:46 PM, "wildwoodjct"  <johnbarth@...> wrote:       Remember the Mantua kits  from the 1950s? These were freight car kits made of plastic and metal.  The reefer cars had metal sides. I have looked for these kits at train  shows but have never seen them anywhere today. Back then the Mantua kits  were very common. Mantua cars had a unique loop coupler which was  attached to the trucks. With these couplers of course you could only  operate Mantua cars and locos unless you changed the couplers which I  did. But today I wish I had still the original couplers. Has anybody  seen these kits anywhere, maybe on  ebay?- -John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4947	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

I once had a Mantua "Crazy Crystals" reefer that was a plastic body that metal sides fit into, there were tabs on the side that went into slots in the body and were folded over.   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of sheet metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card overlays finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic body with a die cast floor/frame. Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with plastic roof and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer only, with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a hook & loop coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@verizon. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > -John > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4948	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > Hi John: > > Those "hook and loop" couplers were probably old Baker couplers. Very > reliable, but terribly unscalish and unprototypical. They survive today on > German HO Fleischmann trains. FYI, Baker couplers are what preceded > the X2f (so called "NMRA" coupler of the later 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s). > > I believe Roco still uses them too on their domestic Austrian line of trains. > The Roco versions are much smaller than the old US counterparts, and > are such that when coupled into a train, are nearly invisible, particularly > on their passenger trains. They hide under the cars diaphrams. They > work wonderfully -- too bad the morons who make stuff for the US > market haven't discovered them yet. > > I personally wish the old Baker couplers were still around. After having > putzed around with McHenrys, and some of the Kadees, they would be > a welcome sight to behold once again, LOL. For long trains and continous > running (shows, exhibits, etc), they stay coupled with no false uncouplings > or break aways, such as we experience here in the US. > > T'anks for the memories! > > Dave F > Both Baker and Mantua made loop and hook couplers but they were of very different design and totally un-capable. Looking at the Mantua loop from the side they would most closely resemble a razor blade viewed from the side. A bit thicker and (hopefully) duller, they were made of a flat piece of thin steel with the leading edge tapered to a point so two couplers would slide one above the other. Their hook was position so that the actual hook part was roughly in the center of the loop as viewed from the top. They had a straight uncoupling pin descending from "drawbar" part of the hook. The Baker loop was also made out of thin metal that was maybe what, 3/16ths(?) of an inch in width. The loop was formed with the material on it's edge, sorta like those old, open top metal cookie cutters. From the side (in a poor light) they could actually resemble a knuckle coupler as they had some height to them. Their pin was also cut from a flat piece of metal and the hook part extended out over the face of the loop so as to catch the edge of the loop of the next car. Their loops butted face-to-face against one another when they were coupled. The uncoupling "pin" was curved in profile to somewhat resemble an airhose. They had a spring that gently applied down pressure to the hook. If memory serves me right, John Allen used Baker albeit with the spring removed. This allowed coupling when the cars were just "nudged" together. Wish I had photos but do not at this time. Maybe if get one of them "round-to-it's" I can dig out my old MR magazine from the 40's and 50's and scan some photos. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4949	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I grew up in the SF Bay Area--US Navy had a big "Airship" base at Moffet Field, near Mountain View. Used to see the helium cars in there all the time. Huge hangar was originally for the Navy's two dirigibles Akron and Macon. Macon is on the bottom of the Pacific off Point Sur. Then they used the facility for ordinary Blimps. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Barlow > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:30 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories) > > > Dear CNJ999, > > Nothing really odd about a Helium tank car or the others in a consist. I actually saw one of those buggers in a private owner's colors under an overpass in San Francisco in August 1972 in San Francisco, as I had just processed off Active Duty with the Air Force at Travis AFB up north of there. I have 35mm slides of it somewhere, but "privatizing" the car is acceptable. After Ambroid, somebody did it in plastic...AHM? > > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) > This discussion of Helium cars has aroused me from my normal stupor and caused me to have a thought, something as rare as 79 cent gas these days. If a rail car was loaded with helium, was it lighter then it's tare? And if so, how did they bill for the shipment? Did they have to use an upside down scale? These are things an inquiring public wants to know. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI. P.s., I'll bet this post would irritate the heck out of that "kilbeggan68" guy. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4950	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: MANTUA PLASTIC/METAL

Atached are pix of the Mantua plastic/metal reefer, it originally came with Mantua hook and loop couplers mounted on the trucks.   Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4951	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi John: Thanks for the info on the Mantua and Baker couplers. I see them often in my old copies of MR. I have MRs for all of the 50s and 60s. Stay well, Dave F ************** Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4952	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

Attachments : Try again.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4953	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Mantua had their hook & loop coupler long before Baker of Varney--which both had h & l couplers--Mantua was the only one to truck-mount the h & coupler.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories Hi John: Those "hook and loop" couplers were probably old Baker couplers. Very reliable, but terribly unscalish and unprototypical. They survive today on German HO Fleischmann trains. FYI, Baker couplers are what preceded the X2f (so called "NMRA" coupler of the later 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s). I believe Roco still uses them too on their domestic Austrian line of trains. The Roco versions are much smaller than the old US counterparts, and are such that when coupled into a train, are nearly invisible, particularly on their passenger trains. They hide under the cars diaphrams. They work wonderfully -- too bad the morons who make stuff for the US market haven't discovered them yet. I personally wish the old Baker couplers were still around. After having putzed around with McHenrys, and some of the Kadees, they would be a welcome sight to behold once again, LOL. For long trains and continous running (shows, exhibits, etc), they stay coupled with no false uncouplings or break aways, such as we experience here in the US. T'anks for the memories! Dave F ************** Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4954	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Roger--that one is definitely a Varney--they only had that and a boxcar and 50' flat between the wood/card models and the all-plastic ones as John Allen did the ads for.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories I once had a Mantua "Crazy Crystals" reefer that was a plastic body that metal sides fit into, there were tabs on the side that went into slots in the body and were folded over.   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of sheet metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card overlays finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic body with a die cast floor/frame. Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with plastic roof and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer only, with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a hook & loop coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@verizon. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > -John > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4955	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)

the gas was highly compressed--which got the weight up there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:05 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories) > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> I grew up in the SF Bay Area--US Navy had a big "Airship" base at > Moffet Field, near Mountain View. Used to see the helium cars in > there all the time. Huge hangar was originally for the Navy's two > dirigibles Akron and Macon. Macon is on the bottom of the Pacific > off Point Sur. Then they used the facility for ordinary Blimps. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: John Barlow >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:30 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua > Memories) >> >> >> Dear CNJ999, >> >> Nothing really odd about a Helium tank car or the others in a > consist. I actually saw one of those buggers in a private owner's > colors under an overpass in San Francisco in August 1972 in San > Francisco, as I had just processed off Active Duty with the Air Force > at Travis AFB up north of there. I have 35mm slides of it somewhere, > but "privatizing" the car is acceptable. After Ambroid, somebody did > it in plastic...AHM? >> >> John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) >> > This discussion of Helium cars has aroused me from my normal stupor > and caused me to have a thought, something as rare as 79 cent gas > these days. > > If a rail car was loaded with helium, was it lighter then it's tare? > And if so, how did they bill for the shipment? Did they have to use > an upside down scale? These are things an inquiring public wants to > know. > > John Hagen > Milwaukee, WI. > > P.s., I'll bet this post would irritate the heck out of > that "kilbeggan68" guy. >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4956	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: MANTUA PLASTIC/METAL

didn't come thru--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: VINTAGE H-0 Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:05 PM Subject: [vintageHO] MANTUA PLASTIC/METAL Atached are pix of the Mantua plastic/metal reefer, it originally came with Mantua hook and loop couplers mounted on the trucks.   Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4957	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/29/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

That is definitely a Varney--I have one like it--the trucks are Kadee--the only ones of the era to have the brake beams cast in.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: VINTAGE H-0 Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer Try again.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4958	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: was: Mantua Memories - odd couplers

> Hi John: > > Those "hook and loop" couplers were probably old Baker couplers. Very > reliable, but terribly unscalish and unprototypical. They survive > today on > German HO Fleischmann trains. FYI, Baker couplers are what preceded > the X2f (so called "NMRA" coupler of the later 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s). > Baker couplers are similar to old Fleischmann's ( think F. has some sort of close coupling system now) but while Bakers were asymetrical and made from sheet metal, F.s were symetrical and cast. From all the Eurpean couplers they were the worst - incompatible with anything else, mounted much higher than any other coupler and impossible to get cars apart without uncoupling tracks or tools. I had some El Capitan High Levels as a boy, even bought expensive Fleischmann adapter couplers ( for the Maerklin / Roco / Kleinbahn/ Lima / Rivarossi / whatever loop couplers ) - they were insatisfactory as they had some sort of offset shank which caused them to have vertical play. > > > I believe Roco still uses them too on their domestic Austrian line > of trains. > The Roco versions are much smaller than the old US counterparts, and > are such that when coupled into a train, are nearly invisible, > particularly > on their passenger trains. They hide under the cars diaphrams. They > work wonderfully -- too bad the morons who make stuff for the US > market haven't discovered them yet. > If you are talking about the old style Roco - Märklin - .... system I have to disagree strongly. ( they have a new close coupling system now that has its own advantages and bad sides, but this is off topic here) Common to all those European couplers was that they looked terrible and , as it was necessary to avoid buffers to touch each other in curves or - heaven forbid - catch in S-curves ! - had to be quite long. This was simple accepted then as an inavoidable fact. What made things really annoying was that none of those couplers worked ok with any other brand. Living in Vienna it was customary to have a Kleinbahn set, but with time I bought other models or got some odd pieces from well meaning relatives, the inavoidable problems were impossible to overcome for a ten year old. Then, some stores began to sell AHM and Con Cor cars with Horn Hook couplers, and they had adapters for those which also worked rather inreliable... at age 16 I gave up , frustrated by all the trouble. Surely other things contributed also, but I still remember the frustration.. . Twenty years later I came about a few cars with Kadee couplers - what a difference ! I can lift a ( freight) car right out of a train without twisting, I have couplers that LOOK like couplers , and I can adapt them to everything that rolls on H0 tracks... One of the reasons I came back into model railroading. > > > I personally wish the old Baker couplers were still around. After > having > putzed around with McHenrys, and some of the Kadees, they would be > a welcome sight to behold once again, LOL. For long trains and > continous > running (shows, exhibits, etc), they stay coupled with no false > uncouplings > or break aways, such as we experience here in the US. > Re McHenrys - as long as there are people who buy a off brand product that works inreliable and looks doubtful, there will be manufactures who cater to those... I really feel cheated when I buy a $ 40 passenger car with a brand x coupler which has to go straight to the waste bin. Whats the difference to Horn Hook days? BTW, a even coarse version of the Mantua coupler still lives on in England - just check the "Thomas" train sets sold by Walthers! Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4959	From: jay matz	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Helium Tank Car (was: Mantua Memories)

John I ask that question once. I was told that the Helium was under pressure in a liquid state and was very heavy. Jay > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - ---------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4960	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having to say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their type of hook & loop couplers for a while. Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed card overlays yet. These cars included: Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, and numbered 90274. Price $4.25 Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & Pacific) and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above caboose. Price $2.00 Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The flat car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always had a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal to molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy knuckle couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop coupler was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. Best, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of sheet > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card overlays > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic body with > a die cast floor/frame. > > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with plastic roof > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer only, > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a hook & loop > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > > -John > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4961	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Glenn, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Varney "only having that (Crazy Crystal reefer), a box car and a 50' flat between the wood/card models and the all-plastic ones that John Allen did the ads for." I presume you're talking about Varney's metal freight car line, and possibly you mean that they did a series of reefers using that as their contruction (plastic body w/ metal sides, using tabs) between these two times(?), as I seem to gather from this. If that's the case, please know that Varney did not use this type of construction -- that was Mantua's; nor did Varney ever produce a Crazy Crystals reefer. Roger's car is definitely a Mantua. They produced a small line of billboard reefers (only) after their embossed car side metal cars and before going over to molded all- plastic cars. I have a number of these in original boxes (boxes are short, one-piece with a fold down lid) including Crazy Crystals, Baby Ruth, Land 'O Lakes and Borden's Fine Cheese. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Roger--that one is definitely a Varney--they only had that and a boxcar and 50' flat between the wood/card models and the all-plastic ones as John Allen did the ads for. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Roger Aultman > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:42 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > I once had a Mantua "Crazy Crystals" reefer that was a plastic body that metal sides fit into, there were tabs on the side that went into slots in the body and were folded over. Roger Aultman > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn476 > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of sheet > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card overlays > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic body with > a die cast floor/frame. > > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with plastic roof > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer only, > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a hook & loop > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > > -John > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4962	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: US Hobbies/KTM O gauge

Does there exist anywhere a compilation or index of the prolific O gauge brass locomotive that US Hobbies imported under its name for so many years in the '70s and '80s? John Glaab's Brown Book includes only HO. The California State Railroad Museum is undergoing an extensive cataloguing of its large toy and scale model collections, and the scale O gauge is shaping up to be one of the harder nuts. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4963	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

TWIMC: I must jump in here as, I do not recall VARNEY having hoop and loop couplers. I got into HO trains back in 1940 and have acccumulated quite a large inventory of VARNEY production since that time. The oldest catalog that I have is from 1941. The oldest coupler that I have run across, is the simulated dummy knuckle coupler, done in a round shape with a vertical cast on bead at the end of the supposed knuckle, for extra strength. I am not aware of any production of a hook and loop (Mantua) style coupler produced or included by VARNEY in their kits, at any time. As I recall, the couplers supplied during WW 2, were of knuckle design, improved in detail and cast in Tenite (plastic). A simple shaft was behind the coupler head with a hole for pinning same to the wooden car floor. Other hardware, such as end sills, air brake cylinders, triple valves, wheels and reefer platforms with hatches, were also cast in Tenite at that time. Wartime restrictions against metal usage for non essential purposes, required a priority permit to obtain such metals as axles seemed to remain available. All else was wood, paper or plastic. I have a three ring binder, full of VARNEY reprints, including catalogs and magazine advertisements. Nothing there suggests that VARNEY ever used hook and loop couplers. If they did, I suspect that it would have been before WW 2 and should be specifically documented on this list. Anyone? Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4964	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Mantua did have their hook & loop coupler before Varney, at least by 1938 as I previously mentioned. Varney's 1938 catalog shows their old style of plastic (tenite) dummy coupler, part # 601, which was also the only one they had in 1939. Their 1940 and '41 catalogs show that one in addition to a new AAR type dummy plastic coupler, part #600, which was carried over (with the same part #) when production was resumed after the War. Late pre-War kits included the hook & loop coupler, until stock ran out. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Mantua had their hook & loop coupler long before Baker of Varney-- which both had h & l couplers--Mantua was the only one to truck-mount the h & coupler. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: WK2SHR@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 7:18 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > Hi John: > > Those "hook and loop" couplers were probably old Baker couplers. Very > reliable, but terribly unscalish and unprototypical. They survive today on > German HO Fleischmann trains. FYI, Baker couplers are what preceded > the X2f (so called "NMRA" coupler of the later 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s). > > I believe Roco still uses them too on their domestic Austrian line of trains. > The Roco versions are much smaller than the old US counterparts, and > are such that when coupled into a train, are nearly invisible, particularly > on their passenger trains. They hide under the cars diaphrams. They > work wonderfully -- too bad the morons who make stuff for the US > market haven't discovered them yet. > > I personally wish the old Baker couplers were still around. After having > putzed around with McHenrys, and some of the Kadees, they would be > a welcome sight to behold once again, LOL. For long trains and continous > running (shows, exhibits, etc), they stay coupled with no false uncouplings > or break aways, such as we experience here in the US. > > T'anks for the memories! > > Dave F > > > > ************** > Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. > http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise? NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4965	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Ray,     Thanks for all the useful information.  I’m especially glad to know that Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars.  I’m familiar with both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit with a wood floor which I wasn’t sure was original.     All best.                                                                                                                                     Lou Greiff On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Hi Glenn,  Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having to say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers.  Yes, Varney did use their type of hook & loop couplers for a while. Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938.  This catalog carries only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed card overlays yet.  These cars included: Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, and numbered 90274.  Price $4.25 Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh Valley, and numbered 3140.  Price $3.00 Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & Pacific) and numbered (number unknown).  $Price $2.75 Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above caboose.  Price $2.00 Note:  ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler.  Mantua's embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them.  The flat car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- wheel caboose).  The old time passenger cars also came out then. With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always had a factory painted steel roof.   It was the floor only that changed first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal to molded plastic (in 1954).  They used the molded plastic dummy knuckle couplers during the metal car period.  Varney's hook & loop coupler was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars.   Best,  Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I think you are mixing two brands.  Mantua started with a body of sheet > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card overlays > finished the car.  They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic body with > a die cast floor/frame. > > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with plastic roof > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer only, > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a hook & loop > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > > -John > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4966	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hey Don, Like you, none of my Varney literature indicates a hook & loop coupler. There seems to be a short blurb on them in the Varney Guide though (on page 30), but again no pic. After the War, I bought several of the old pre-War kits which were left over stock, as original kits from hobby shops which included hook & loop couplers as can be seen on pages 33, 34, 35 & 39, on some of these pre-War cars. Since my kits carrying these couplers came from various hobby shops as original (untouched) kits, I'm tending to believe Varney did supply them before they converted over to War production. Apparently other members here also feel Varney offered them. As it seems you're suspecting though, and you have a good point, even with all this these still may not be Varney's even if its compelling to see it as such. I do remember their Tenite couplers, a material with which they also made pre-War stock cars and gondolas out of at some point. I would not mind seeing further proof one way or the other to decide this point, besides what is being offered. Best, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, DLeistikow@... wrote: > > TWIMC: I must jump in here as, I do not recall VARNEY having hoop and > loop couplers. > > I got into HO trains back in 1940 and have acccumulated quite a large > inventory of VARNEY production since that time. The oldest catalog that > I have is from 1941. The oldest coupler that I have run across, is the > simulated dummy knuckle coupler, done in a round shape with a vertical > cast on bead at the end of the supposed knuckle, for extra strength. > > I am not aware of any production of a hook and loop (Mantua) style > coupler produced or included by VARNEY in their kits, at any time. As I > recall, the couplers supplied during WW 2, were of knuckle design, > improved in detail and cast in Tenite (plastic). A simple shaft was > behind the coupler head with a hole for pinning same to the wooden car > floor. Other hardware, such as end sills, air brake cylinders, triple > valves, wheels and reefer platforms with hatches, were also cast in > Tenite at that time. > > Wartime restrictions against metal usage for non essential purposes, > required a priority permit to obtain such metals as axles seemed to > remain available. All else was wood, paper or plastic. > > I have a three ring binder, full of VARNEY reprints, including catalogs > and magazine advertisements. Nothing there suggests that VARNEY ever > used hook and loop couplers. If they did, I suspect that it would have > been before WW 2 and should be specifically documented on this list. > > Anyone? > > Don L. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4967	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of steel cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To verify this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's Varney Guide (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel sides (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor and cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided Deluxe kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to know that > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m familiar with > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit with a wood > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > All best. > > > Lou Greiff > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having to > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, and > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & Pacific) > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The flat > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always had > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal to > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy knuckle > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop coupler > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > > Best, Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of > > sheet > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > overlays > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic > > body with > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >> > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > plastic roof > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer > > only, > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > hook & loop > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> > > >> > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car > > kits > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > > anywhere > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars > > had a > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos > > unless > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > still the > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on > > ebay?- > >>> > > -John > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4968	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Don, I don't know if you're serious in asking if Mantua offered any other road names in there paper-sided metal box car line, or if you're just trying to twist my arm to continue kit lists (LOL), but yes, they had a fair selection of 18 different box cars (in addition to 20 reefers, 6 hoppers, 6 gondolas and 12 tank cars -- and 1 undec flat), and a 4-wheel and 8-wheel caboose as well. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Re: [vintageHO] Mantua MemoriesI don't know what it is about the Canadian National sides on Mantua. I have seen and own TWO Mantua original boxcars, and BOTH were the CN (one though the sides were so damaged I couldn't save them and had to do a repaint). Now you have ONE and it's a CN! Did they offer any other road names? :-) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Louis Greiff > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:50 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > Hi John, > > These cars do show up at train meets from time to time. I found one last Sunday at a very small TTOS (tinplate) train meet in the Buffalo, NY area. It's an all-metal boxcar with paper sides. The 1950s customer bought the generic car and then chose the paper sides from the selection available at the hobby shop. Mine is Canadian National with the green maple leaf logo. The car is perfect, but the paper sides have bowed slightly from humidity. Try searching for Mantua Metal on ebay and see what comes up. > Happy hunting. > > Lou Greiff > > > On 1/29/08 4:46 PM, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > -John >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4969	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

I'll have to dig out the MR's from 1938-39 and compare. As to Varney--that photo looks like a plastic roof with the hatches molded in. I don't know too much about the pre-war Varney, other than it was the traditional wood and card style kits. The Varney H&L coupler I recall came along in the Train Set Era. It was made of stamped steel.,blued, and looked very much like the modern LGB coupler. From what I have dug out, the Mantua cars progressed from the metal with card side versions (I am not familiar with the earlier ones) with the exception that the cabooses were similar to the open platform passenger cars, all stamped and cast metal. The last freight car in that line, that I consider to be the transition to the "Modern" line, was the flat car--all die cast metal. This led to the cast floor/frame used in the plastic bodied cars later called the "Heavies"--the boxcar, reefer, and gondola were the direct descendants. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having to > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, and > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & Pacific) > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > caboose. Price $2.00 > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The flat > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always had > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal to > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy knuckle > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop coupler > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > Best, Ray W. > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of > sheet >> metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > overlays >> finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic > body with >> a die cast floor/frame. >> >> Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > plastic roof >> and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer > only, >> with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > hook & loop >> coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car > kits >> > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have >> > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > anywhere >> > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars > had a >> > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these >> > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos > unless >> > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > still the >> > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on > ebay?- >> > -John >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4970	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Attachments : I tried the Varney autos in the mmid 50's  for awhile, switching from Mantua, they seemed to have little advantage.  Next were the X2F which I tried to use untill KD devolped the MageMatics.  I thought   there was a unopened package around but could not find it, or a add in a magazine.  Attached is a  scan from the RMC "Dispatchers Report" December 1954 that mentions the Varney auto. Roger Aultman           ----- Original Message ----- From: DLeistikow@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories TWIMC: I must jump in here as, I do not recall VARNEY having hoop and loop couplers. I got into HO trains back in 1940 and have acccumulated quite a large inventory of VARNEY production since that time. The oldest catalog that I have is from 1941. The oldest coupler that I have run across, is the simulated dummy knuckle coupler, done in a round shape with a vertical cast on bead at the end of the supposed knuckle, for extra strength. I am not aware of any production of a hook and loop (Mantua) style coupler produced or included by VARNEY in their kits, at any time. As I recall, the couplers supplied during WW 2, were of knuckle design, improved in detail and cast in Tenite (plastic). A simple shaft was behind the coupler head with a hole for pinning same to the wooden car floor. Other hardware, such as end sills, air brake cylinders, triple valves, wheels and reefer platforms with hatches, were also cast in Tenite at that time. Wartime restrictions against metal usage for non essential purposes, required a priority permit to obtain such metals as axles seemed to remain available. All else was wood, paper or plastic. I have a three ring binder, full of VARNEY reprints, including catalogs and magazine advertisements. Nothing there suggests that VARNEY ever used hook and loop couplers. If they did, I suspect that it would have been before WW 2 and should be specifically documented on this list. Anyone? Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4971	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

by "the reefer" I meant generically a series of paint schemes on that style body, as the boxcar had a series of road names. The main thing was that they were late getting into the freight cars in the post war period (Probably because they were concentrating on getting the steam locomotive line back in production, and developing the diesels.) But I think that Gordon Varney saw the future and proceeded to the all-plastic line of freight cars. I'll get out to "the Basement" after while and look up the ads and reviews. My collection of MR lacks only 15 issues in the thirties to be complete. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Glenn, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Varney "only having > that (Crazy Crystal reefer), a box car and a 50' flat between the > wood/card models and the all-plastic ones that John Allen did the ads > for." I presume you're talking about Varney's metal freight car > line, and possibly you mean that they did a series of reefers using > that as their contruction (plastic body w/ metal sides, using tabs) > between these two times(?), as I seem to gather from this. > > If that's the case, please know that Varney did not use this type of > construction -- that was Mantua's; nor did Varney ever produce a > Crazy Crystals reefer. Roger's car is definitely a Mantua. They > produced a small line of billboard reefers (only) after their > embossed car side metal cars and before going over to molded all- > plastic cars. I have a number of these in original boxes (boxes are > short, one-piece with a fold down lid) including Crazy Crystals, Baby > Ruth, Land 'O Lakes and Borden's Fine Cheese. Ray W. > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> Roger--that one is definitely a Varney--they only had that and a > boxcar and 50' flat between the wood/card models and the all-plastic > ones as John Allen did the ads for. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Roger Aultman >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> I once had a Mantua "Crazy Crystals" reefer that was a plastic > body that metal sides fit into, there were tabs on the side that went > into slots in the body and were folded over. Roger Aultman >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Glenn476 >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body > of sheet >> metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > overlays >> finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece > plastic body with >> a die cast floor/frame. >> >> Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > plastic roof >> and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and > reefer only, >> with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > hook & loop >> coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > car kits >> > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I > have >> > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > anywhere >> > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > cars had a >> > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > these >> > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > locos unless >> > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > still the >> > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > maybe on ebay?- >> > -John >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4972	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: US Hobbies/KTM O gauge

Denny--I have a fairly complete set of the US Hobbies newsletters, as well as some of the Max Gray ones. I'm going out to "The Basement" to look up some other things, will see what I have--you're welcome to borrow them for your project.2 or 3 binders, as I recall. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:42 AM Subject: [vintageHO] US Hobbies/KTM O gauge > Does there exist anywhere a compilation or index of the prolific O > gauge brass locomotive that US Hobbies imported under its name for > so many years in the '70s and '80s? John Glaab's Brown Book includes > only HO. The California State Railroad Museum is undergoing an > extensive cataloguing of its large toy and scale model collections, > and the scale O gauge is shaping up to be one of the harder nuts. > > Denny > -- > Denny S. Anspach, MD > Sacramento > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4973	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

The Varney H&L coupler came out in the HO Train Set" era in the latter part of the fifties--this is the period in which I , a teen-ager at the time, was getting disgusted with the direction HO was taking and made the switch to O Scale. Almost all the HO lines were pandering to the train-set market. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: <DLeistikow@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > TWIMC: I must jump in here as, I do not recall VARNEY having hoop and > loop couplers. > > I got into HO trains back in 1940 and have acccumulated quite a large > inventory of VARNEY production since that time. The oldest catalog that > I have is from 1941. The oldest coupler that I have run across, is the > simulated dummy knuckle coupler, done in a round shape with a vertical > cast on bead at the end of the supposed knuckle, for extra strength. > > I am not aware of any production of a hook and loop (Mantua) style > coupler produced or included by VARNEY in their kits, at any time. As I > recall, the couplers supplied during WW 2, were of knuckle design, > improved in detail and cast in Tenite (plastic). A simple shaft was > behind the coupler head with a hole for pinning same to the wooden car > floor. Other hardware, such as end sills, air brake cylinders, triple > valves, wheels and reefer platforms with hatches, were also cast in > Tenite at that time. > > Wartime restrictions against metal usage for non essential purposes, > required a priority permit to obtain such metals as axles seemed to > remain available. All else was wood, paper or plastic. > > I have a three ring binder, full of VARNEY reprints, including catalogs > and magazine advertisements. Nothing there suggests that VARNEY ever > used hook and loop couplers. If they did, I suspect that it would have > been before WW 2 and should be specifically documented on this list. > > Anyone? > > Don L. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4974	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

OK--that's about the timeframe I was thinking about.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories I tried the Varney autos in the mmid 50's  for awhile, switching from Mantua, they seemed to have little advantage.  Next were the X2F which I tried to use untill KD devolped the MageMatics.  I thought   there was a unopened package around but could not find it, or a add in a magazine.  Attached is a  scan from the RMC "Dispatchers Report" December 1954 that mentions the Varney auto. Roger Aultman           ----- Original Message ----- From: DLeistikow@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories TWIMC: I must jump in here as, I do not recall VARNEY having hoop and loop couplers. I got into HO trains back in 1940 and have acccumulated quite a large inventory of VARNEY production since that time. The oldest catalog that I have is from 1941. The oldest coupler that I have run across, is the simulated dummy knuckle coupler, done in a round shape with a vertical cast on bead at the end of the supposed knuckle, for extra strength. I am not aware of any production of a hook and loop (Mantua) style coupler produced or included by VARNEY in their kits, at any time. As I recall, the couplers supplied during WW 2, were of knuckle design, improved in detail and cast in Tenite (plastic). A simple shaft was behind the coupler head with a hole for pinning same to the wooden car floor. Other hardware, such as end sills, air brake cylinders, triple valves, wheels and reefer platforms with hatches, were also cast in Tenite at that time. Wartime restrictions against metal usage for non essential purposes, required a priority permit to obtain such metals as axles seemed to remain available. All else was wood, paper or plastic. I have a three ring binder, full of VARNEY reprints, including catalogs and magazine advertisements. Nothing there suggests that VARNEY ever used hook and loop couplers. If they did, I suspect that it would have been before WW 2 and should be specifically documented on this list. Anyone? Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4975	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

You're talking about Roger's Crazy Crystal photo looking like it has a plastic roof with molded hatches? It should look like plastic -- its not a Varney, but a Mantua. Okay, very interesting you mention that the Varney H&L couplers came along when they were offering their train sets, which would be between 1954 and 1969, with many of them starting on the market from 1957-58 on up. This would have the H&L couplers on the plastic cars, but I couldn't pinpoint just when. My 1966 catalog shows just the horn-hook couplers which were being pushed back then. I don't collect plastic cars or sets, although I have a smattering of of some Varney, Athearn and T-M plastic that I've somehow gathered (no H&L couplers on them though. so I've never noticed those couplers ever having been on those cars. I have seen some pics of Varney plastic hoppers with the H&L's, however, but just thought they were Mantua couplers. As I said earlier, I bought new pre-War kits from hobby shops way back with H&L couplers but there's always the possibility that they were substituted (I didn't see Gordon actually put them in the box, lol). Glad you pointed that out about the train sets, at least it narrows that down. With the Mantua metal to plastic transition, okay I guess you missed that part with the metal sides on plastic bodies. Next to impossible to be up on everything. They did carry those cast flats for quite a while though, like you said. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I'll have to dig out the MR's from 1938-39 and compare. > > As to Varney--that photo looks like a plastic roof with the hatches molded > in. I don't know too much about the pre-war Varney, other than it was the > traditional wood and card style kits. The Varney H&L coupler I recall came > along in the Train Set Era. It was made of stamped steel.,blued, and looked > very much like the modern LGB coupler. > > From what I have dug out, the Mantua cars progressed from the metal with > card side versions (I am not familiar with the earlier ones) with the > exception that the cabooses were similar to the open platform passenger > cars, all stamped and cast metal. The last freight car in that line, that I > consider to be the transition to the "Modern" line, was the flat car--all > die cast metal. This led to the cast floor/frame used in the plastic bodied > cars later called the "Heavies"--the boxcar, reefer, and gondola were the > direct descendants. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:55 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having to > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, and > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & Pacific) > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The flat > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always had > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal to > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy knuckle > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop coupler > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of > > sheet > >> metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > overlays > >> finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic > > body with > >> a die cast floor/frame. > >> > >> Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > plastic roof > >> and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer > > only, > >> with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > hook & loop > >> coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car > > kits > >> > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > >> > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > > anywhere > >> > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars > > had a > >> > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > >> > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos > > unless > >> > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > still the > >> > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on > > ebay?- > >> > -John > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4976	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

It was a bit tongue in cheek. It's just funny that every original Mantua box car I come accross is the CN one! I do have a couple each of the reefers, gondolas and tanks, and a handful of the diecast flats too. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:40 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Don, I don't know if you're serious in asking if Mantua offered any > other road names in there paper-sided metal box car line, or if > you're just trying to twist my arm to continue kit lists (LOL), but > yes, they had a fair selection of 18 different box cars (in addition > to 20 reefers, 6 hoppers, 6 gondolas and 12 tank cars -- and 1 undec > flat), and a 4-wheel and 8-wheel caboose as well. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> Re: [vintageHO] Mantua MemoriesI don't know what it is about the > Canadian National sides on Mantua. I have seen and own TWO Mantua > original boxcars, and BOTH were the CN (one though the sides were so > damaged I couldn't save them and had to do a repaint). Now you have > ONE and it's a CN! Did they offer any other road names? :-) >> >> Don >> >> don.dellmann@... >> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann >> Owner-Moderator >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> Co-owner >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Louis Greiff >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:50 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> Hi John, >> >> These cars do show up at train meets from time to time. I > found one last Sunday at a very small TTOS (tinplate) train meet in > the Buffalo, NY area. It's an all-metal boxcar with paper sides. > The 1950s customer bought the generic car and then chose the paper > sides from the selection available at the hobby shop. Mine is > Canadian National with the green maple leaf logo. The car is > perfect, but the paper sides have bowed slightly from humidity. Try > searching for Mantua Metal on ebay and see what comes up. >> Happy hunting. >> >> > Lou Greiff >> >> >> On 1/29/08 4:46 PM, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car > kits >> made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I > have >> looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > anywhere >> today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars > had a >> unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > these >> couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos > unless >> you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > still the >> original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe > on ebay?- >> -John >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4977	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Ray and list: Mantua was a strong producer of HO kits, very popular at that pre war time. Never-the-less, I still doubt that VARNEY produced the hook and loop style coupler. How or why they appeared in VARNEY kits, is the question. Is it possible that some Hobby Shops might have supplied Mantua couplers to customers who were known to use, or asked for, the Mantua H&L couplers. To my thinking, it just does not seem likely that VARNEY would supply the H&L style couplers direct from their factory. From what I have read about Gordon Varney; the business was started in Hollywood, California and migrated to Chicago, Illinois sometime before WW2. I believe that I do have a kit box proclaiming just that. During the War, VARNEY fielded a line of dry kits identified as Mainline or Main Line. Bare bones kits at a fraction of the cost of pre war production. Real El Cheapo but, with lack of quality production, became a means to an end. VARNEY was ingaged in wartime production of materials necessary for the Military. Not only did I purchase 'new' kits but, I did pursue second hand cars from many sources. As I have maintained car storage in original boxes, I actually cut cardboard and constructed boxes for those cars, which then easily stacked on shelving. Of course, I did mark these box ends with appropriate identification. In addition, I do maintain file cards on each car that is constructed. Frankly, I still have a few kits in original boxes that have yet to be put together. Regretably, my first effort to construct a car from a kit was; Varney's MILW Bay Window Caboose that they produced in aluminum foil. Wrong way to start! My next effort was the R-15 MILW Wood Reefer, a paper and wood kit, with trucks and couplers. Found a few more on 2nd hand sales. This one is a gem, as I sealed it with varnish. Still looks good as new. 'Nuff for now...... Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4978	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Okay, that clears that up; I thought you might have meant that but wasn't sure. Still, Varney didn't use that style body with a one- piece molded roof ends & floor and metal side to be installed with tabs. This was strickly a Mantua innovation. Really wasn't much of a time difference between the time Varney got into freight cars post-War and the time Mantua got into post-War freight cars. Varney's first post_war catalog (including freight cars) was December 1947 and Mantua's first post-War catalog came out earlier that same year. Yes, Varney did get the jump on plastic car production with their some of their hoppers in 1950, some tankers in 1951 and some gons in '52. Even with some of their flat cars and cattle cars in 1953, they beat Mantua which was still marketing their metal (paper-sided) cars in that year. On the other hand though, Athearn was still producing their metal cars and releasing new ones up until then, even though they started making a few plastic cars in 1950-51. By that it would seem to look like the metal cars were still heavily in demand, and MDC was still busy producing their cast- sided kits. Nice collection of MR's you have there. They're so worth what you might have to pay for the issues to complete them, just in the advertisement info alone. I'm still missing 13 issues from the 1930's, so we're close. Mainly need 1937 as all I have there is Jan. and Mar., then I'm missing Jan., Oct. and Nov. of 1938 Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > by "the reefer" I meant generically a series of paint schemes on that style > body, as the boxcar had a series of road names. The main thing was that > they were late getting into the freight cars in the post war period > (Probably because they were concentrating on getting the steam locomotive > line back in production, and developing the diesels.) But I think that > Gordon Varney saw the future and proceeded to the all-plastic line of > freight cars. > > I'll get out to "the Basement" after while and look up the ads and reviews. > My collection of MR lacks only 15 issues in the thirties to be complete. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:24 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Glenn, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Varney "only having > > that (Crazy Crystal reefer), a box car and a 50' flat between the > > wood/card models and the all-plastic ones that John Allen did the ads > > for." I presume you're talking about Varney's metal freight car > > line, and possibly you mean that they did a series of reefers using > > that as their contruction (plastic body w/ metal sides, using tabs) > > between these two times(?), as I seem to gather from this. > > > > If that's the case, please know that Varney did not use this type of > > construction -- that was Mantua's; nor did Varney ever produce a > > Crazy Crystals reefer. Roger's car is definitely a Mantua. They > > produced a small line of billboard reefers (only) after their > > embossed car side metal cars and before going over to molded all- > > plastic cars. I have a number of these in original boxes (boxes are > > short, one-piece with a fold down lid) including Crazy Crystals, Baby > > Ruth, Land 'O Lakes and Borden's Fine Cheese. Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> Roger--that one is definitely a Varney--they only had that and a > > boxcar and 50' flat between the wood/card models and the all- plastic > > ones as John Allen did the ads for. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Roger Aultman > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:42 PM > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> I once had a Mantua "Crazy Crystals" reefer that was a plastic > > body that metal sides fit into, there were tabs on the side that went > > into slots in the body and were folded over. Roger Aultman > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Glenn476 > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 PM > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body > > of sheet > >> metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > overlays > >> finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece > > plastic body with > >> a die cast floor/frame. > >> > >> Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > plastic roof > >> and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and > > reefer only, > >> with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > hook & loop > >> coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> > >> > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > > car kits > >> > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I > > have > >> > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > > anywhere > >> > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > > cars had a > >> > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > > these > >> > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > > locos unless > >> > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > still the > >> > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > > maybe on ebay?- > >> > -John > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4979	From: erieberk	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind, I was wondering about that. Seems CN and CP were very popular, especially to market them in Canada since there were no other long-haul roads. That was one of Athearn metal's longest runs with at least 17 different reporting numbers, with CP close behind (with 16). Only SP Overnight was larger with at least 22 difference car numbers, but then that run was split with some spelled out as Southern Pacific and some just having the SP abbreviated. Same here, although I have a fair collection of Mantua metal, I never collected it heavily, leaving that for Athearn, MDC and Varney. They can look pretty decent though, when put together carefully (and how can you beat those flats?). Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > It was a bit tongue in cheek. It's just funny that every original Mantua > box car I come accross is the CN one! > > I do have a couple each of the reefers, gondolas and tanks, and a handful of > the diecast flats too. > > Don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:40 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Don, I don't know if you're serious in asking if Mantua offered any > > other road names in there paper-sided metal box car line, or if > > you're just trying to twist my arm to continue kit lists (LOL), but > > yes, they had a fair selection of 18 different box cars (in addition > > to 20 reefers, 6 hoppers, 6 gondolas and 12 tank cars -- and 1 undec > > flat), and a 4-wheel and 8-wheel caboose as well. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > >> Re: [vintageHO] Mantua MemoriesI don't know what it is about the > > Canadian National sides on Mantua. I have seen and own TWO Mantua > > original boxcars, and BOTH were the CN (one though the sides were so > > damaged I couldn't save them and had to do a repaint). Now you have > > ONE and it's a CN! Did they offer any other road names? :-) > >> > >> Don > >> > >> don.dellmann@ > >> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > >> Owner-Moderator > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > >> Co-owner > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Louis Greiff > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:50 PM > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> Hi John, > >> > >> These cars do show up at train meets from time to time. I > > found one last Sunday at a very small TTOS (tinplate) train meet in > > the Buffalo, NY area. It's an all-metal boxcar with paper sides. > > The 1950s customer bought the generic car and then chose the paper > > sides from the selection available at the hobby shop. Mine is > > Canadian National with the green maple leaf logo. The car is > > perfect, but the paper sides have bowed slightly from humidity. Try > > searching for Mantua Metal on ebay and see what comes up. > >> Happy hunting. > >> > >> > > Lou Greiff > >> > >> > >> On 1/29/08 4:46 PM, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car > > kits > >> made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I > > have > >> looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > > anywhere > >> today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars > > had a > >> unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > > these > >> couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos > > unless > >> you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > still the > >> original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe > > on ebay?- > >> -John > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4980	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: US Hobbies/KTM O gauge

Denny . I havea potential lead for you . A modeler friend of mine by the name of Howard Ameling . He has steam photos for sale , he was an O scale modeler , Max Gray ,etc. He probably has a web site . Try him ,he might know of other O scalers / ref. materials . HH--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Denny--I have a fairly complete set of the US Hobbies newsletters, as well > as some of the Max Gray ones. I'm going out to "The Basement" to look up > some other things, will see what I have--you're welcome to borrow them for > your project.2 or 3 binders, as I recall. Glenn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:42 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] US Hobbies/KTM O gauge > > > > Does there exist anywhere a compilation or index of the prolific O > > gauge brass locomotive that US Hobbies imported under its name for > > so many years in the '70s and '80s? John Glaab's Brown Book includes > > only HO. The California State Railroad Museum is undergoing an > > extensive cataloguing of its large toy and scale model collections, > > and the scale O gauge is shaping up to be one of the harder nuts. > > > > Denny > > -- > > Denny S. Anspach, MD > > Sacramento > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4981	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney kit, #B-79, West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, with a one piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This part has "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it is identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a Santa Fe "El Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is wood with a cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on reading Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic hatches. The baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be taken for a plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone re-send it to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding for the name. Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic coupler--I don't think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and was soon displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee dreamed up. This was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto standard of the trainset industry. Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with the plastic cars. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of steel cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To verify this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's Varney Guide (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel sides (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor and cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided Deluxe kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to know that > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m familiar with > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit with a wood > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > All best. > > > Lou Greiff > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having to > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, and > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & Pacific) > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The flat > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always had > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal to > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy knuckle > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop coupler > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > > Best, Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of > > sheet > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > overlays > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic > > body with > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >> > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > plastic roof > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer > > only, > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > hook & loop > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> > > >> > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car > > kits > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > > anywhere > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars > > had a > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos > > unless > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > still the > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on > > ebay?- > >>> > > -John > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4982	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Thee Varney metal kits I have use a stamped steel roof with added walks, the body was a side and an end as one L-shaped stamping (2 per car) and the underbody I described in the other post. When Varney went to the all-plastic cars they made the whole body, less roof as one part, the roof separate. When Mantua went to all-plastic bodies, theirs included the roof, but left the bottom open for the Zamak floor. Varney kits always had body-mounted couplers, Mantua started truck-mounting their H&L couplers when they went to the plastic-body cars. When the X2f came out they changed to that on the truck mount. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:56 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Okay, that clears that up; I thought you might have meant that but > wasn't sure. Still, Varney didn't use that style body with a one- > piece molded roof ends & floor and metal side to be installed with > tabs. This was strickly a Mantua innovation. > > Really wasn't much of a time difference between the time Varney got > into freight cars post-War and the time Mantua got into post-War > freight cars. Varney's first post_war catalog (including freight > cars) was December 1947 and Mantua's first post-War catalog came out > earlier that same year. Yes, Varney did get the jump on plastic car > production with their some of their hoppers in 1950, some tankers in > 1951 and some gons in '52. Even with some of their flat cars and > cattle cars in 1953, they beat Mantua which was still marketing their > metal (paper-sided) cars in that year. On the other hand though, > Athearn was still producing their metal cars and releasing new ones > up until then, even though they started making a few plastic cars in > 1950-51. By that it would seem to look like the metal cars were > still heavily in demand, and MDC was still busy producing their cast- > sided kits. > > Nice collection of MR's you have there. They're so worth what you > might have to pay for the issues to complete them, just in the > advertisement info alone. I'm still missing 13 issues from the > 1930's, so we're close. Mainly need 1937 as all I have there is Jan. > and Mar., then I'm missing Jan., Oct. and Nov. of 1938 Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> by "the reefer" I meant generically a series of paint schemes on > that style >> body, as the boxcar had a series of road names. The main thing was > that >> they were late getting into the freight cars in the post war period >> (Probably because they were concentrating on getting the steam > locomotive >> line back in production, and developing the diesels.) But I think > that >> Gordon Varney saw the future and proceeded to the all-plastic line > of >> freight cars. >> >> I'll get out to "the Basement" after while and look up the ads and > reviews. >> My collection of MR lacks only 15 issues in the thirties to be > complete. gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:24 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> > Glenn, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Varney "only having >> > that (Crazy Crystal reefer), a box car and a 50' flat between the >> > wood/card models and the all-plastic ones that John Allen did the > ads >> > for." I presume you're talking about Varney's metal freight car >> > line, and possibly you mean that they did a series of reefers > using >> > that as their contruction (plastic body w/ metal sides, using > tabs) >> > between these two times(?), as I seem to gather from this. >> > >> > If that's the case, please know that Varney did not use this type > of >> > construction -- that was Mantua's; nor did Varney ever produce a >> > Crazy Crystals reefer. Roger's car is definitely a Mantua. They >> > produced a small line of billboard reefers (only) after their >> > embossed car side metal cars and before going over to molded all- >> > plastic cars. I have a number of these in original boxes (boxes > are >> > short, one-piece with a fold down lid) including Crazy Crystals, > Baby >> > Ruth, Land 'O Lakes and Borden's Fine Cheese. Ray W. >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> Roger--that one is definitely a Varney--they only had that and a >> > boxcar and 50' flat between the wood/card models and the all- > plastic >> > ones as John Allen did the ads for. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Roger Aultman >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:42 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> >> >> I once had a Mantua "Crazy Crystals" reefer that was a plastic >> > body that metal sides fit into, there were tabs on the side that > went >> > into slots in the body and were folded over. Roger Aultman >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Glenn476 >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> >> >> I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body >> > of sheet >> >> metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card >> > overlays >> >> finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece >> > plastic body with >> >> a die cast floor/frame. >> >> >> >> Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, > with >> > plastic roof >> >> and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and >> > reefer only, >> >> with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also > had a >> > hook & loop >> >> coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight >> > car kits >> >> > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal > sides. I >> > have >> >> > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen > them >> > anywhere >> >> > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua >> > cars had a >> >> > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With >> > these >> >> > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and >> > locos unless >> >> > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I > had >> > still the >> >> > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, >> > maybe on ebay?- >> >> > -John >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4983	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

my 15 missing issues are also in the thirties. printing this out co I can check the list next time out there--I do have some dupes.gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:56 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Okay, that clears that up; I thought you might have meant that but > wasn't sure. Still, Varney didn't use that style body with a one- > piece molded roof ends & floor and metal side to be installed with > tabs. This was strickly a Mantua innovation. > > Really wasn't much of a time difference between the time Varney got > into freight cars post-War and the time Mantua got into post-War > freight cars. Varney's first post_war catalog (including freight > cars) was December 1947 and Mantua's first post-War catalog came out > earlier that same year. Yes, Varney did get the jump on plastic car > production with their some of their hoppers in 1950, some tankers in > 1951 and some gons in '52. Even with some of their flat cars and > cattle cars in 1953, they beat Mantua which was still marketing their > metal (paper-sided) cars in that year. On the other hand though, > Athearn was still producing their metal cars and releasing new ones > up until then, even though they started making a few plastic cars in > 1950-51. By that it would seem to look like the metal cars were > still heavily in demand, and MDC was still busy producing their cast- > sided kits. > > Nice collection of MR's you have there. They're so worth what you > might have to pay for the issues to complete them, just in the > advertisement info alone. I'm still missing 13 issues from the > 1930's, so we're close. Mainly need 1937 as all I have there is Jan. > and Mar., then I'm missing Jan., Oct. and Nov. of 1938 Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> by "the reefer" I meant generically a series of paint schemes on > that style >> body, as the boxcar had a series of road names. The main thing was > that >> they were late getting into the freight cars in the post war period >> (Probably because they were concentrating on getting the steam > locomotive >> line back in production, and developing the diesels.) But I think > that >> Gordon Varney saw the future and proceeded to the all-plastic line > of >> freight cars. >> >> I'll get out to "the Basement" after while and look up the ads and > reviews. >> My collection of MR lacks only 15 issues in the thirties to be > complete. gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:24 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> > Glenn, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Varney "only having >> > that (Crazy Crystal reefer), a box car and a 50' flat between the >> > wood/card models and the all-plastic ones that John Allen did the > ads >> > for." I presume you're talking about Varney's metal freight car >> > line, and possibly you mean that they did a series of reefers > using >> > that as their contruction (plastic body w/ metal sides, using > tabs) >> > between these two times(?), as I seem to gather from this. >> > >> > If that's the case, please know that Varney did not use this type > of >> > construction -- that was Mantua's; nor did Varney ever produce a >> > Crazy Crystals reefer. Roger's car is definitely a Mantua. They >> > produced a small line of billboard reefers (only) after their >> > embossed car side metal cars and before going over to molded all- >> > plastic cars. I have a number of these in original boxes (boxes > are >> > short, one-piece with a fold down lid) including Crazy Crystals, > Baby >> > Ruth, Land 'O Lakes and Borden's Fine Cheese. Ray W. >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> Roger--that one is definitely a Varney--they only had that and a >> > boxcar and 50' flat between the wood/card models and the all- > plastic >> > ones as John Allen did the ads for. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Roger Aultman >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:42 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> >> >> I once had a Mantua "Crazy Crystals" reefer that was a plastic >> > body that metal sides fit into, there were tabs on the side that > went >> > into slots in the body and were folded over. Roger Aultman >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Glenn476 >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> >> >> I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body >> > of sheet >> >> metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card >> > overlays >> >> finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece >> > plastic body with >> >> a die cast floor/frame. >> >> >> >> Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, > with >> > plastic roof >> >> and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and >> > reefer only, >> >> with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also > had a >> > hook & loop >> >> coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight >> > car kits >> >> > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal > sides. I >> > have >> >> > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen > them >> > anywhere >> >> > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua >> > cars had a >> >> > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With >> > these >> >> > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and >> > locos unless >> >> > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I > had >> > still the >> >> > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, >> > maybe on ebay?- >> >> > -John >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4984	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hey--it's cold out there--down to 31 from 34--and in California! I don't have any duplicate MR's in the thirties. some in 1940 and 1944, and I think a full year 1941. I need: 1938, January and November 1936, January, February, March, April, May, August. 1935 February, March, June, July, August, September, December. glenn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4985	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Attachments : Hello Glenn   Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy Crystals, I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is visible, though not as well as I wish.  Roger         ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney kit, #B-79, West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, with a one piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This part has "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it is identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a Santa Fe "El Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is wood with a cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on reading Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic hatches. The baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be taken for a plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone re-send it to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding for the name. Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic coupler--I don't think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and was soon displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee dreamed up. This was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto standard of the trainset industry. Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with the plastic cars. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of steel cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To verify this (if you can use this as "verification" ), Spanagel's Varney Guide (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel sides (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor and cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided Deluxe kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@.. .> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to know that > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m familiar with > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit with a wood > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > All best. > > > Lou Greiff > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having to > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, and > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & Pacific) > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The flat > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always had > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal to > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy knuckle > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop coupler > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > > Best, Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> , > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of > > sheet > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > overlays > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic > > body with > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >> > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > plastic roof > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer > > only, > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > hook & loop > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> > > >> > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car > > kits > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > > anywhere > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars > > had a > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos > > unless > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > still the > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on > > ebay?- > >>> > > -John > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4986	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

my collection of Mantua metal equipment is nearly complete--at least to types of equipment--I don't have anywhere near the full assortment or road names. I do have some untouched kits,and some sets of sides. I also have nearly all they car types and locos from MDC's all metal line. Anyone got an MDC HOn3 0-6-0? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Yeah, that thought crossed my mind, I was wondering about that. > Seems CN and CP were very popular, especially to market them in > Canada since there were no other long-haul roads. That was one of > Athearn metal's longest runs with at least 17 different reporting > numbers, with CP close behind (with 16). Only SP Overnight was > larger with at least 22 difference car numbers, but then that run was > split with some spelled out as Southern Pacific and some just having > the SP abbreviated. > > Same here, although I have a fair collection of Mantua metal, I never > collected it heavily, leaving that for Athearn, MDC and Varney. They > can look pretty decent though, when put together carefully (and how > can you beat those flats?). Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> It was a bit tongue in cheek. It's just funny that every original > Mantua >> box car I come accross is the CN one! >> >> I do have a couple each of the reefers, gondolas and tanks, and a > handful of >> the diecast flats too. >> >> Don >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:40 PM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> > Don, I don't know if you're serious in asking if Mantua offered > any >> > other road names in there paper-sided metal box car line, or if >> > you're just trying to twist my arm to continue kit lists (LOL), > but >> > yes, they had a fair selection of 18 different box cars (in > addition >> > to 20 reefers, 6 hoppers, 6 gondolas and 12 tank cars -- and 1 > undec >> > flat), and a 4-wheel and 8-wheel caboose as well. Ray >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Re: [vintageHO] Mantua MemoriesI don't know what it is about the >> > Canadian National sides on Mantua. I have seen and own TWO Mantua >> > original boxcars, and BOTH were the CN (one though the sides were > so >> > damaged I couldn't save them and had to do a repaint). Now you > have >> > ONE and it's a CN! Did they offer any other road names? :-) >> >> >> >> Don >> >> >> >> don.dellmann@ >> >> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann >> >> Owner-Moderator >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> >> Co-owner >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Louis Greiff >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:50 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi John, >> >> >> >> These cars do show up at train meets from time to time. I >> > found one last Sunday at a very small TTOS (tinplate) train meet > in >> > the Buffalo, NY area. It's an all-metal boxcar with paper sides. >> > The 1950s customer bought the generic car and then chose the paper >> > sides from the selection available at the hobby shop. Mine is >> > Canadian National with the green maple leaf logo. The car is >> > perfect, but the paper sides have bowed slightly from humidity. > Try >> > searching for Mantua Metal on ebay and see what comes up. >> >> Happy hunting. >> >> >> >> >> > Lou > Greiff >> >> >> >> >> >> On 1/29/08 4:46 PM, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > car >> > kits >> >> made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I >> > have >> >> looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them >> > anywhere >> >> today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > cars >> > had a >> >> unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With >> > these >> >> couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > locos >> > unless >> >> you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had >> > still the >> >> original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > maybe >> > on ebay?- >> >> -John >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4987	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you please re-send the other pix of the car?  Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney reefer I know is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the floor, but they had holes for screws.  How about the body construction what parts are made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, separate roof.  I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some of the  later ones, but have never seen this variety.   Those trucks look like Kadee-- gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Hello Glenn   Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy Crystals, I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is visible, though not as well as I wish.  Roger         ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney kit, #B-79, West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, with a one piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This part has "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it is identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a Santa Fe "El Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is wood with a cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on reading Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic hatches. The baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be taken for a plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone re-send it to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding for the name. Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic coupler--I don't think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and was soon displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee dreamed up. This was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto standard of the trainset industry. Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with the plastic cars. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of steel cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To verify this (if you can use this as "verification" ), Spanagel's Varney Guide (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel sides (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor and cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided Deluxe kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@.. .> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to know that > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m familiar with > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit with a wood > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > All best. > > > Lou Greiff > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having to > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, and > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & Pacific) > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The flat > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always had > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal to > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy knuckle > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop coupler > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > > Best, Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> , > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body of > > sheet > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > overlays > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic > > body with > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >> > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > plastic roof > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer > > only, > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > hook & loop > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> > > >> > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car > > kits > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > > anywhere > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars > > had a > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos > > unless > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > still the > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on > > ebay?- > >>> > > -John > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4988	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Attachments : Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, guess I felt the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides could of been made by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the style seems similar. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you please re-send the other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney reefer I know is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the floor, but they had holes for screws. How about the body construction what parts are made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, separate roof. I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some of the later ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look like Kadee-- gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4989	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the cast one? I'd like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the construction of that part of the car. "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks with the one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged flanges. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, guess I felt > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides could of been > made > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the style seems > similar. Roger > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn476 > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you please re-send > the > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney reefer I know > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the floor, but > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction what parts are > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, separate roof. > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some of the > later > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look like Kadee-- > gj > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4990	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Roger, thanks for sharing your photos of the Crazy Crystals reefer.  The photos are nice, and the car is great.  It’s different from  my Varney metal reefers in many respects.  The Varney cars had only two tabs on each side which were bent 90 degrees by the modeler and screwed down to the car floor.  Your photo of the car bottom shows more than two tabs on the near side, and they are bent well beyond 90 degrees to fit into slots on the car floor.  The car ends appear much thicker than the Varney ends, which were integral with the sides as others have noted.  Each end of the Varney cars also had one tab screwed down to the car floor exactly as the side tabs were fastened.  In the other photo of your Crazy Crystals car that shows the roof, the hasps on the ice hatches appear to be exactly centered on the hatches.  The plastic hatches on the Varney reefers had off-center hatches.  Something that has always bothered me about Varney reefers is this exact detail because all four ice hatches were cast from the same mold.  If you look at a Varney refrigerator car roof from one end, both of the hasps closest to you are offset to the left instead of one to the left and the other to the right.  There should be a left hand and a right hand hatch that are distinct from one another, but Gordon Varney and his colleagues took a short cut here so both of them, or really all four, are the same.  Thanks again for the neat pictures.                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 1/30/08 10:02 PM, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:     Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, guess I felt the originals had too sharp of flanges.  Think the sides could of been made by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the style seems similar.   Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you please re-send the other pix of the car?  Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney reefer I know is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the floor, but they had holes for screws.  How about the body construction what parts are made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, separate roof. I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some of the  later ones, but have never seen this variety.   Those trucks look like Kadee-- gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4991	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: US Hobbies/KTM O gauge

Denny:   I expect to shortly have "The Brass Train Guide Book" that has been recently advertised (such as in Feb 2008 RMC).  They say it includes all gauges including O.  I'll see if it has anything useful that might help you.   Also, they say "coming soon" a "fully interactive web site" with "10,000 model photos", and "history and data on over 21,000 models".   It's probably worth watching for this site to develop.  It is www.brassguide.com.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Henry Hultgren To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: US Hobbies/KTM O gauge Denny . I havea potential lead for you . A modeler friend of mine by the name of Howard Ameling . He has steam photos for sale , he was an O scale modeler , Max Gray ,etc. He probably has a web site . Try him ,he might know of other O scalers / ref. materials . HH--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > > Denny--I have a fairly complete set of the US Hobbies newsletters, as well > as some of the Max Gray ones. I'm going out to "The Basement" to look up > some other things, will see what I have--you're welcome to borrow them for > your project.2 or 3 binders, as I recall. Glenn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@.. .> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:42 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] US Hobbies/KTM O gauge > > > > Does there exist anywhere a compilation or index of the prolific O > > gauge brass locomotive that US Hobbies imported under its name for > > so many years in the '70s and '80s? John Glaab's Brown Book includes > > only HO. The California State Railroad Museum is undergoing an > > extensive cataloguing of its large toy and scale model collections, > > and the scale O gauge is shaping up to be one of the harder nuts. > > > > Denny > > -- > > Denny S. Anspach, MD > > Sacramento > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4992	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Alright, I can see where your confusion comes in. While these Varney metal cars have tabs (with screw holes) on the bottom edge to be folded over flat to the bottom of the floor - to be attached to the floor with screws, these Mantua car tabs fold over completely and crimp the onto the edging of their floors. If you'll look further at your West India Fruit car, you'll see two tabs on each side (and one tab on each end); these tabs on the sides are positioned just about in line with the 2nd wheelset of the truck (the wheelset furthest in from the end of the car). The Mantua sides, as can be seen in Roger's photo, have four tabs on the sides, the furthest ones out from the center of the car are positioned just outward of the truck bolsters. Now, the clincher in all of this is, as you'll readily see with your Varney W.I.F. & S. box car kit (B-79), is that Varney used 2 one- piece side and end stampings in their assembly, each side and end looking like an "L" shape (bent on a 90 o angle). I referred to that in my message (#4967) to Lou yesterday (1/30 @ 1:26PM), but you may not have picked up on that. Mantua had only the straight metal side pieces to be attached to the plastic body, with no wrap-around with a metal end, as again can be seen in Roger's photo if you look for it. Mantua's ends were part of the plastic carbody, and not metal like Varney's. No need to look for the Varney reefer that you've misplaced; all of Varney's metal car construction is identical (including your ATSF El Capitan (B-56). I'm not arguing that your cars are Varney -- THEY ARE, but they don't match the construction of these metal-sided Mantua cars such as Roger has shown, and as you point out from reading Spangel's book, Varney used a metal roof whereas Mantua's was plastic, they are not identical. In reading over the additional posts on these Varney H&L couplers, it does appear that they probably came out around 1954 or '55. Yes, the NMRA sure made a blunder when they suggest the X2F coupler -- which the industry adopted "eternally," They have to be the worst, but then I'm sure everyone knows that story. Kadee couldn't have come along at a much better time. Fortunately, there were some (of the better) manufacturers which included these couplers with their kits. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney kit, #B-79, > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, with a one > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This part has > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it is > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a Santa Fe "El > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is wood with a > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on reading > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic hatches. The > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be taken for a > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone re- send it > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding for the name. > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic coupler-- I don't > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and was soon > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee dreamed up. This > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto standard of the > trainset industry. > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with the plastic > cars. > > gj > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of steel > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To verify > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's Varney Guide > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel sides > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor and > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided Deluxe > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to > know that > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m > familiar with > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit > with a wood > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > > All best. > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having > to > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, > and > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > Pacific) > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The > flat > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always > had > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal > to > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy > knuckle > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > coupler > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> , > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body > of > > > sheet > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > > overlays > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece > plastic > > > body with > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > >> > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > > plastic roof > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and > reefer > > > only, > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > > hook & loop > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > car > > > kits > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. > I have > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen > them > > > anywhere > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > cars > > > had a > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > these > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > locos > > > unless > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > > still the > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > maybe on > > > ebay?- > > >>> > > -John > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4993	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer

Attachments : Glenn,  Forwarding Roger's Mantua photos as per your request, I hope  help again.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4994	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer

Okay, that didn't work, sorry. The attachment didn't come with it. Maybe someone else can re-send them to you. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote: > > Glenn, Forwarding Roger's Mantua photos as per your request, I hope help > again. Ray > > > </HTML> > > Try again. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4995	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Glenn, I'm taking your messages one at a time -- I see you recognize Varney's unique metal car contruction of having 2 "L" shaped stampings, each stamping being one side and one end (together), and yes, when Varney went to all-plastic cars they made the whole body, less roof as one part (roof separate. Your description of Mantua's all-plastic bodies is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ANIMAL from the plastic bodied cars they produced have metal sides -- one has nothing to do with the other. This includes the manor in which their couplers were mounted; the fact that Mantua's ALL-PLASTIC cars having truck mounted H&L couplers has absolutely no bearing on these DIFFERENT Mantua plastic cars with metal sides. -- they were not designed the same. The couplers had not yet gone to being mounted on the trucks, as the all-plastic cars had. Additionally, as I pointed out, and which you've recognized, Varney had the "L" shaped side/end stampings; Mantua NEVER did. The metal sides on these Mantua cars were just that (and ONLY that) -- SIDES (without ends!). Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Thee Varney metal kits I have use a stamped steel roof with added walks, the > body was a side and an end as one L-shaped stamping (2 per car) and the > underbody I described in the other post. When Varney went to the > all-plastic cars they made the whole body, less roof as one part, the roof > separate. When Mantua went to all-plastic bodies, theirs included the roof, > but left the bottom open for the Zamak floor. Varney kits always had > body-mounted couplers, Mantua started truck-mounting their H&L couplers when > they went to the plastic-body cars. When the X2f came out they changed to > that on the truck mount. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:56 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Okay, that clears that up; I thought you might have meant that but > > wasn't sure. Still, Varney didn't use that style body with a one- > > piece molded roof ends & floor and metal side to be installed with > > tabs. This was strickly a Mantua innovation. > > > > Really wasn't much of a time difference between the time Varney got > > into freight cars post-War and the time Mantua got into post-War > > freight cars. Varney's first post_war catalog (including freight > > cars) was December 1947 and Mantua's first post-War catalog came out > > earlier that same year. Yes, Varney did get the jump on plastic car > > production with their some of their hoppers in 1950, some tankers in > > 1951 and some gons in '52. Even with some of their flat cars and > > cattle cars in 1953, they beat Mantua which was still marketing their > > metal (paper-sided) cars in that year. On the other hand though, > > Athearn was still producing their metal cars and releasing new ones > > up until then, even though they started making a few plastic cars in > > 1950-51. By that it would seem to look like the metal cars were > > still heavily in demand, and MDC was still busy producing their cast- > > sided kits. > > > > Nice collection of MR's you have there. They're so worth what you > > might have to pay for the issues to complete them, just in the > > advertisement info alone. I'm still missing 13 issues from the > > 1930's, so we're close. Mainly need 1937 as all I have there is Jan. > > and Mar., then I'm missing Jan., Oct. and Nov. of 1938 Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> by "the reefer" I meant generically a series of paint schemes on > > that style > >> body, as the boxcar had a series of road names. The main thing was > > that > >> they were late getting into the freight cars in the post war period > >> (Probably because they were concentrating on getting the steam > > locomotive > >> line back in production, and developing the diesels.) But I think > > that > >> Gordon Varney saw the future and proceeded to the all-plastic line > > of > >> freight cars. > >> > >> I'll get out to "the Basement" after while and look up the ads and > > reviews. > >> My collection of MR lacks only 15 issues in the thirties to be > > complete. gj > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:24 AM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> > Glenn, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Varney "only having > >> > that (Crazy Crystal reefer), a box car and a 50' flat between the > >> > wood/card models and the all-plastic ones that John Allen did the > > ads > >> > for." I presume you're talking about Varney's metal freight car > >> > line, and possibly you mean that they did a series of reefers > > using > >> > that as their contruction (plastic body w/ metal sides, using > > tabs) > >> > between these two times(?), as I seem to gather from this. > >> > > >> > If that's the case, please know that Varney did not use this type > > of > >> > construction -- that was Mantua's; nor did Varney ever produce a > >> > Crazy Crystals reefer. Roger's car is definitely a Mantua. They > >> > produced a small line of billboard reefers (only) after their > >> > embossed car side metal cars and before going over to molded all- > >> > plastic cars. I have a number of these in original boxes (boxes > > are > >> > short, one-piece with a fold down lid) including Crazy Crystals, > > Baby > >> > Ruth, Land 'O Lakes and Borden's Fine Cheese. Ray W. > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Roger--that one is definitely a Varney--they only had that and a > >> > boxcar and 50' flat between the wood/card models and the all- > > plastic > >> > ones as John Allen did the ads for. > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Roger Aultman > >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:42 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I once had a Mantua "Crazy Crystals" reefer that was a plastic > >> > body that metal sides fit into, there were tabs on the side that > > went > >> > into slots in the body and were folded over. Roger Aultman > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Glenn476 > >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body > >> > of sheet > >> >> metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > >> > overlays > >> >> finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece > >> > plastic body with > >> >> a die cast floor/frame. > >> >> > >> >> Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, > > with > >> > plastic roof > >> >> and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and > >> > reefer only, > >> >> with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also > > had a > >> > hook & loop > >> >> coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > >> > car kits > >> >> > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal > > sides. I > >> > have > >> >> > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen > > them > >> > anywhere > >> >> > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > >> > cars had a > >> >> > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > >> > these > >> >> > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > >> > locos unless > >> >> > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I > > had > >> > still the > >> >> > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > >> > maybe on ebay?- > >> >> > -John > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4996	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.; was Mantua Memories

Glenn, Please post a list of the issues you need. While I can't help you by having any extras, I can check for them at train meets around here, or maybe someone else on the Group might have some. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > my 15 missing issues are also in the thirties. printing this out co I can > check the list next time out there--I do have some dupes.gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:56 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Okay, that clears that up; I thought you might have meant that but > > wasn't sure. Still, Varney didn't use that style body with a one- > > piece molded roof ends & floor and metal side to be installed with > > tabs. This was strickly a Mantua innovation. > > > > Really wasn't much of a time difference between the time Varney got > > into freight cars post-War and the time Mantua got into post-War > > freight cars. Varney's first post_war catalog (including freight > > cars) was December 1947 and Mantua's first post-War catalog came out > > earlier that same year. Yes, Varney did get the jump on plastic car > > production with their some of their hoppers in 1950, some tankers in > > 1951 and some gons in '52. Even with some of their flat cars and > > cattle cars in 1953, they beat Mantua which was still marketing their > > metal (paper-sided) cars in that year. On the other hand though, > > Athearn was still producing their metal cars and releasing new ones > > up until then, even though they started making a few plastic cars in > > 1950-51. By that it would seem to look like the metal cars were > > still heavily in demand, and MDC was still busy producing their cast- > > sided kits. > > > > Nice collection of MR's you have there. They're so worth what you > > might have to pay for the issues to complete them, just in the > > advertisement info alone. I'm still missing 13 issues from the > > 1930's, so we're close. Mainly need 1937 as all I have there is Jan. > > and Mar., then I'm missing Jan., Oct. and Nov. of 1938 Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> by "the reefer" I meant generically a series of paint schemes on > > that style > >> body, as the boxcar had a series of road names. The main thing was > > that > >> they were late getting into the freight cars in the post war period > >> (Probably because they were concentrating on getting the steam > > locomotive > >> line back in production, and developing the diesels.) But I think > > that > >> Gordon Varney saw the future and proceeded to the all-plastic line > > of > >> freight cars. > >> > >> I'll get out to "the Basement" after while and look up the ads and > > reviews. > >> My collection of MR lacks only 15 issues in the thirties to be > > complete. gj > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:24 AM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> > Glenn, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Varney "only having > >> > that (Crazy Crystal reefer), a box car and a 50' flat between the > >> > wood/card models and the all-plastic ones that John Allen did the > > ads > >> > for." I presume you're talking about Varney's metal freight car > >> > line, and possibly you mean that they did a series of reefers > > using > >> > that as their contruction (plastic body w/ metal sides, using > > tabs) > >> > between these two times(?), as I seem to gather from this. > >> > > >> > If that's the case, please know that Varney did not use this type > > of > >> > construction -- that was Mantua's; nor did Varney ever produce a > >> > Crazy Crystals reefer. Roger's car is definitely a Mantua. They > >> > produced a small line of billboard reefers (only) after their > >> > embossed car side metal cars and before going over to molded all- > >> > plastic cars. I have a number of these in original boxes (boxes > > are > >> > short, one-piece with a fold down lid) including Crazy Crystals, > > Baby > >> > Ruth, Land 'O Lakes and Borden's Fine Cheese. Ray W. > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Roger--that one is definitely a Varney--they only had that and a > >> > boxcar and 50' flat between the wood/card models and the all- > > plastic > >> > ones as John Allen did the ads for. > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Roger Aultman > >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:42 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I once had a Mantua "Crazy Crystals" reefer that was a plastic > >> > body that metal sides fit into, there were tabs on the side that > > went > >> > into slots in the body and were folded over. Roger Aultman > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Glenn476 > >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:57 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body > >> > of sheet > >> >> metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > >> > overlays > >> >> finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece > >> > plastic body with > >> >> a die cast floor/frame. > >> >> > >> >> Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, > > with > >> > plastic roof > >> >> and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and > >> > reefer only, > >> >> with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also > > had a > >> > hook & loop > >> >> coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > >> > car kits > >> >> > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal > > sides. I > >> > have > >> >> > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen > > them > >> > anywhere > >> >> > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > >> > cars had a > >> >> > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > >> > these > >> >> > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > >> > locos unless > >> >> > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I > > had > >> > still the > >> >> > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > >> > maybe on ebay?- > >> >> > -John > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4997	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader O.T. - was Mantua Memories

Sounds a bit chilly for California, depending on which area. About the same temps here in the East. I see you posted your MR needs; didn't expect to see this the very next post. I'll copy it for reference at the meets. Besides those I'm missing in the 1930's, I have all years complete (with one exception) up until 1954, where I'm missing September ('54). I'm missing December of 1941, but I don't know if you want to break up that year (let me know off line). Many thanks, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Hey--it's cold out there--down to 31 from 34--and in California! I don't > have any duplicate MR's in the thirties. some in 1940 and 1944, and I think > a full year 1941. > > I need: 1938, January and November > 1936, January, February, March, April, May, August. > 1935 February, March, June, July, August, September, December. > glenn >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4998	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure that "MANTUA" was cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state that, but without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want to say that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was telling me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to say these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which someone might attempt to stretch. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy Crystals, I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is visible, though not as well as I wish. Roger > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn476 > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney kit, #B-79, > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, with a one > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This part has > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it is > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a Santa Fe "El > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is wood with a > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on reading > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic hatches. The > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be taken for a > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone re- send it > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding for the name. > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic coupler--I don't > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and was soon > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee dreamed up. This > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto standard of the > trainset industry. > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with the plastic > cars. > > gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of steel > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To verify > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's Varney Guide > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel sides > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor and > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided Deluxe > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to > know that > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m > familiar with > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit > with a wood > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > > All best. > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having > to > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, > and > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > Pacific) > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The > flat > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always > had > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal > to > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy > knuckle > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > coupler > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> , > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body > of > > > sheet > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > > overlays > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece > plastic > > > body with > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > >> > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > > plastic roof > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and > reefer > > > only, > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > > hook & loop > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > car > > > kits > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. > I have > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen > them > > > anywhere > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > cars > > > had a > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > these > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > locos > > > unless > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > > still the > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > maybe on > > > ebay?- > > >>> > > -John > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 4999	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Sounds like a presentable collection of Mantua metal. Fortunately, there are still mint kits around to be found. Yeah, less fortunate are the prices they can go for, unless finding a bargain (can happen more than you think). The Mantua side (and tank wrapper) sets can often be found at swap & sells; I've picked up a bunch of them from time to time. Also sounds like your MDC metal car collection (in addition to your locos) is quite commendable. I've been fortunate to have been able to pick up just about everyone one over the years, as I indicated with the spread sheet Chuck posted last Fall. While there are still some around, they're not as easy to find -- especially the rarer ones they produced towards the end of their metal run. I'm sure most of us have a certain satisfaction in accumulating our collections and its always enjoyable when obtaining a new one to add to it, when you least expected to find it; that's half of what makes it fun. While some of the members have found a few bargains on eBay (got to be lucky), I still feel the best buys are found at meets. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > my collection of Mantua metal equipment is nearly complete--at least to > types of equipment--I don't have anywhere near the full assortment or road > names. I do have some untouched kits,and some sets of sides. > I also have nearly all they car types and locos from MDC's all metal line. > Anyone got an MDC HOn3 0-6-0? gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:09 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Yeah, that thought crossed my mind, I was wondering about that. > > Seems CN and CP were very popular, especially to market them in > > Canada since there were no other long-haul roads. That was one of > > Athearn metal's longest runs with at least 17 different reporting > > numbers, with CP close behind (with 16). Only SP Overnight was > > larger with at least 22 difference car numbers, but then that run was > > split with some spelled out as Southern Pacific and some just having > > the SP abbreviated. > > > > Same here, although I have a fair collection of Mantua metal, I never > > collected it heavily, leaving that for Athearn, MDC and Varney. They > > can look pretty decent though, when put together carefully (and how > > can you beat those flats?). Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > >> It was a bit tongue in cheek. It's just funny that every original > > Mantua > >> box car I come accross is the CN one! > >> > >> I do have a couple each of the reefers, gondolas and tanks, and a > > handful of > >> the diecast flats too. > >> > >> Don > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:40 PM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> > Don, I don't know if you're serious in asking if Mantua offered > > any > >> > other road names in there paper-sided metal box car line, or if > >> > you're just trying to twist my arm to continue kit lists (LOL), > > but > >> > yes, they had a fair selection of 18 different box cars (in > > addition > >> > to 20 reefers, 6 hoppers, 6 gondolas and 12 tank cars -- and 1 > > undec > >> > flat), and a 4-wheel and 8-wheel caboose as well. Ray > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Re: [vintageHO] Mantua MemoriesI don't know what it is about the > >> > Canadian National sides on Mantua. I have seen and own TWO Mantua > >> > original boxcars, and BOTH were the CN (one though the sides were > > so > >> > damaged I couldn't save them and had to do a repaint). Now you > > have > >> > ONE and it's a CN! Did they offer any other road names? :-) > >> >> > >> >> Don > >> >> > >> >> don.dellmann@ > >> >> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > >> >> Owner-Moderator > >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > >> >> Co-owner > >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Louis Greiff > >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:50 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Hi John, > >> >> > >> >> These cars do show up at train meets from time to time. I > >> > found one last Sunday at a very small TTOS (tinplate) train meet > > in > >> > the Buffalo, NY area. It's an all-metal boxcar with paper sides. > >> > The 1950s customer bought the generic car and then chose the paper > >> > sides from the selection available at the hobby shop. Mine is > >> > Canadian National with the green maple leaf logo. The car is > >> > perfect, but the paper sides have bowed slightly from humidity. > > Try > >> > searching for Mantua Metal on ebay and see what comes up. > >> >> Happy hunting. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > Lou > > Greiff > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On 1/29/08 4:46 PM, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > > car > >> > kits > >> >> made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I > >> > have > >> >> looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them > >> > anywhere > >> >> today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > > cars > >> > had a > >> >> unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > >> > these > >> >> couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > > locos > >> > unless > >> >> you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > >> > still the > >> >> original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > > maybe > >> > on ebay?- > >> >> -John > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5000	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

The Varney reefer tabs are the same type of tabs used on the Varney box cars, they had holes for screws to attach the floor. Really no need to look for it since they are both the same, but I know its frustrating sometimes when you can't put your finger on a car you're looking for. Yes, from what you were saying, it appeared that you haven't seen these Mantua cars yet; glad to see you've been enlightened. Always something new under the Sun when it comes to this old stuff; you never know what you can expect -- you just need to be open to it. Almost seems at times that there was some copying of designs (from other mfrs.) when designing a new line of their own. This is a major reason for having these spread sheets (aside from the mfrs. different construction), its easy to tell at a glance which mfrs. are which when comparing reporting numbers. None that I know of used the same car side numbers. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you please re- send the other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney reefer I know is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the floor, but they had holes for screws. How about the body construction what parts are made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, separate roof. I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some of the later ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look like Kadee-- gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Roger Aultman > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 5:31 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy Crystals, I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is visible, though not as well as I wish. Roger > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn476 > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney kit, #B-79, > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, with a one > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This part has > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it is > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a Santa Fe "El > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is wood with a > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on reading > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic hatches. The > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be taken for a > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone re-send it > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding for the name. > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic coupler--I don't > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and was soon > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee dreamed up. This > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto standard of the > trainset industry. > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with the plastic > cars. > > gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of steel > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To verify > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's Varney Guide > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel sides > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor and > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided Deluxe > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to > know that > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m > familiar with > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit > with a wood > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > > All best. > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having > to > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, > and > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > Pacific) > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The > flat > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always > had > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal > to > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy > knuckle > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > coupler > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> , > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body > of > > > sheet > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > > overlays > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece > plastic > > > body with > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > >> > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > > plastic roof > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and > reefer > > > only, > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > > hook & loop > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > car > > > kits > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. > I have > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen > them > > > anywhere > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > cars > > > had a > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > these > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > locos > > > unless > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > > still the > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > maybe on > > > ebay?- > > >>> > > -John > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5001	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Possible that Varney could have supplied Mantua with these metal sides, but the machining would have had to be modified to produce the four tabs (in different locations) and to stamp out only the sides rather than the one-piece side/end "L" shaped stamping. I think the Mantua metal sides were also a bit higher than Varney so it may not have been practical. Such a possibility is not unheard of though, an example being Athearn providing Modelmaster with all the metal components for their kits; but then there were no changes in machining since everything remained the same. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, guess I felt > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides could of been made > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the style seems > similar. Roger > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn476 > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you please re- send the > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney reefer I know > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the floor, but > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction what parts are > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, separate roof. > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some of the later > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look like Kadee-- gj >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5002	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

"Replaced the Varney wood frame with the cast one"? I guess you mean "floor"? (Varney didn't have a wood or cast frame). Looks like you're still not convinced, since you're apparently now thinking this was kit-bashed -- unless I'm reading this wrong! If so, what does it take for you to acknowledge this is the genuine Mantua article? If I'm reading this wrong, I'd appreciate some clarity on this. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the cast one? I'd > like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the construction of that part > of the car. > > "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks with the > one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged flanges. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, guess I felt > > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides could of been > > made > > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the style seems > > similar. Roger > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Glenn476 > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you please re-send > > the > > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney reefer I know > > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the floor, but > > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction what parts are > > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, separate roof. > > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some of the > > later > > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look like Kadee-- > > gj > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5003	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Lou, Just opened all my boxes of trains that I've been collecting since 1964. I noticed that I have the Seaboard #19264 round roof 40' box car in the yellow #6 Athearn box. Is there any Athearn web site I could join to get some answers on the rest of my collection? I did purchase the Standard Guide to Athearn Model Trains, but there are some kits I have that are not listed in this book. Thanks in advance, Glen Thomas --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Don, > > The Athearn metal single-door round-roof car was made in at least four > road names: PRR, Detroit Toledo & Ironton, Seaboard, and N&W, each road name > with multiple car numbers. They all show up for sale from time to time at > train meets and elsewhere ranging in condition from mint kit, to well-built > finished cars, to junk (for parts). None is rare to my knowledge. I have > examples of all except for the Seaboard. > Best wishes, and happy New Year. > > > Lou Greiff > > > On 1/1/08 7:23 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5004	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Glen, You might try the "Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains" (by Dallas J. Mallerich III) if you don't already have one. Your SAL (#303) #19264 is listed in that; I don't know if its in the "Standard Guide to Athearn Model Trains" (by Tim Blaisdell and Ed Urmston). "The Greenberg's" guide came out in 1987, some 11 years before the "Standard Guide" came out, but that's not to see that it may not contain the info you're looking for, it very well might. Otherwise, you might want to write to Tim Blaisdell or phone him. He used to head up a nation-wide snail mail group by the name of "The Athearn Collector's Society" of which I was a member; they'd send out monthly bulletins (sometimes as thick as 16 pages) full of information. I don't know if the group still exists, but you can reach him at his address -- at P.O. Box 86935, Phoenix, AZ 85080, or by phone at (602) - 516-1731. He may be able to help you further if you can't find your needed information elsewhere. There is an Athearn Yahoo group site, but I don't know if they'd know what you're looking for. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> wrote: > > Lou, > Just opened all my boxes of trains that I've been collecting > since 1964. I noticed that I have the Seaboard #19264 round roof 40' > box car in the yellow #6 Athearn box. > Is there any Athearn web site I could join to get some answers > on the rest of my collection? I did purchase the Standard Guide to > Athearn Model Trains, but there are some kits I have that are not > listed in this book. > > Thanks in advance, Glen Thomas > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > Hi Don, > > > > The Athearn metal single-door round-roof car was made in at > least four > > road names: PRR, Detroit Toledo & Ironton, Seaboard, and N&W, each > road name > > with multiple car numbers. They all show up for sale from time to > time at > > train meets and elsewhere ranging in condition from mint kit, to > well-built > > finished cars, to junk (for parts). None is rare to my knowledge. > I have > > examples of all except for the Seaboard. > > Best wishes, and happy New Year. > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > On 1/1/08 7:23 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote: >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5005	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hello Ray   I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a hobby shop in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone.  Unfortunately the box or the trucks were not saved.   Roger Aultman           ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure that "MANTUA" was cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state that, but without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want to say that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was telling me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to say these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which someone might attempt to stretch. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy Crystals, I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is visible, though not as well as I wish. Roger > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn476 > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney kit, #B-79, > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, with a one > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This part has > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it is > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a Santa Fe "El > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is wood with a > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on reading > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic hatches. The > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be taken for a > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone re- send it > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding for the name. > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic coupler--I don't > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and was soon > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee dreamed up. This > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto standard of the > trainset industry. > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with the plastic > cars. > > gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of steel > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To verify > this (if you can use this as "verification" ), Spanagel's Varney Guide > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel sides > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor and > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided Deluxe > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to > know that > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m > familiar with > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit > with a wood > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > > All best. > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having > to > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use their > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog carries > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, > and > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > Pacific) > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The > flat > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out then. > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always > had > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that changed > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal > to > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy > knuckle > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > coupler > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars. > > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups. com> , > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a body > of > > > sheet > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > > overlays > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece > plastic > > > body with > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > >> > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with > > > plastic roof > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and > reefer > > > only, > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a > > > hook & loop > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% > 40yahoogroups. com> > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight > car > > > kits > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. > I have > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen > them > > > anywhere > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua > cars > > > had a > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With > these > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and > locos > > > unless > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had > > > still the > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > maybe on > > > ebay?- > > >>> > > -John > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5006	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Don et al, Your point is well taken; I had tended to see the inclusion of these H&L couplers in the original Varney kits as Varney production, since they came from reliable hobby shops, and this was especially strengthened when I read the small (but somewhat "hazy") blurb on them in Spanagel's book seeming to possibly point to them. Agreed though, its entirely possible for those couplers to have been added by the hobby shops as after market, even if their coming from multiple shops might be less likely; hard to figure. This new info that's come forth, stating these couplers were introduced near the start of the train set era sheds a different light on this. The Main Line Railway kits you're referring to came out in June 1940 and were marketed though late 1945. As you mention, they were bare bones; I have a number of them. The sides were the same as those used with the better pre-War kits even having the same side numbers, and they didn't have very much else with them; a little "sparse." As for the business, Varney started it in early 1937 at 5720 Melrose Avenue, Los Angeles right after marrying his wife Florence. From there, he move the business to 7475 Melrose Avenue (corner of Gardiner Street) in December 1937, still in L.A. Then in March 1940, he moved to 215 W. Ohio Street in Chicago. After staying there a while they moved to Kilbourne Avenue in Chicago in September of 1941. After tbat, in December of 1942, they moved to West Fullerton Street in Chicago where they stayed during the War. After the War, they moved down to Miami in 1953, to 3350 W. 48th Street. During this time, he built a plant in Puerto Rico, but still kept the main plant in Miami. Sometime in the mid-1950's he moved to 4401 Ponce de Leon Blvd, Coral Gables (apparently still considered "Miami"). Sol Kramer (then a partner in Revell) bought Varney out in 1957. Kramer later took over Penn Line in 1964, and moved that tooling down to the Florida plant. As you probably know, Life-Like bought out the major portion of the plastic car portion of the business in 1969. A friend of mine by the name of Dick Mercer, Gordon Varney's Southeastern Regional Sales Representative, bought out part of the Varney tooling in 1968 and set up his Alco Engineering firm in Macon, Georgia. He reproduced the Varney metal cars in brass, unpainted, and also produced all the parts for the engines before Bowser bought him out. I used to buy from Dick, as he had a lot of left over inventory; He sent me loads of all the stamped metal passenger cars (S-1 to S-18) in all roads for $1 each, which I'd resell. I became very good friends with Hal Fletcher, Varney's Northeastern Regional Sales Representative and used to visit him quite frequently at his Queens, NY home (apartment). I remember him as a very gracious host, offering scotch-on-the-rocks (Dewer's White Label) at my every visit as soon as I opened the door. I wound up buying his complete collection of factory-assembled Varney engines that he used as display models for Gordon Varney. I have a bunch of the Alco Engineering kits too, which Dick gave me; you may have some too. I remember them still being available in the ' 70's. Sounds like you're storing you cars well. That's good thinking, making boxes for them when you don't already have them. Sometimes you'll occasionally get lucky in locating a batch of empty kit boxes at a fair price -- they're good to have and always come in handy. File cards are certainly one way to keep track of them. You never know when you might need some of the info on them, for one thing. Every once in a while I'll put one together too, after all, if you don't get the enjoyment out of them now, maybe you never will. I didn't take on anything that enthusiastic (like your foil MILW caboose) when I was that young; I think my first attempt was a Comet T&P Auto car, then a Varney metal ERIE box car. Well, all for now, thanks for the insight. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, DLeistikow@... wrote: > > Ray and list: Mantua was a strong producer of HO kits, very popular at > that pre war time. Never-the-less, I still doubt that VARNEY produced > the hook and loop style coupler. How or why they appeared in VARNEY > kits, is the question. > > Is it possible that some Hobby Shops might have supplied Mantua couplers > to customers who were known to use, or asked for, the Mantua H&L > couplers. To my thinking, it just does not seem likely that VARNEY > would supply the H&L style couplers direct from their factory. > > From what I have read about Gordon Varney; the business was started in > Hollywood, California and migrated to Chicago, Illinois sometime before > WW2. I believe that I do have a kit box proclaiming just that. During > the War, VARNEY fielded a line of dry kits identified as Mainline or > Main Line. Bare bones kits at a fraction of the cost of pre war > production. Real El Cheapo but, with lack of quality production, became > a means to an end. VARNEY was ingaged in wartime production of > materials necessary for the Military. > > Not only did I purchase 'new' kits but, I did pursue second hand cars > from many sources. As I have maintained car storage in original boxes, > I actually cut cardboard and constructed boxes for those cars, which > then easily stacked on shelving. Of course, I did mark these box ends > with appropriate identification. In addition, I do maintain file cards > on each car that is constructed. Frankly, I still have a few kits in > original boxes that have yet to be put together. > > Regretably, my first effort to construct a car from a kit was; Varney's > MILW Bay Window Caboose that they produced in aluminum foil. Wrong way > to start! My next effort was the R-15 MILW Wood Reefer, a paper and > wood kit, with trucks and couplers. Found a few more on 2nd hand sales. > This one is a gem, as I sealed it with varnish. Still looks good as > new. > > 'Nuff for now...... > > Don L. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5007	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when they were available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. Hard to find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today. I couldn't quite remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't look original, but if they operate decently that's one step in the right direction; I wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use your cars. Too bad about the box though. As I think of it, they may also have come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I come across mine, I'll let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a hobby shop in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. Unfortunately the box or the trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure that "MANTUA" was > cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state that, but > without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want to say > that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was telling > me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to say > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which someone > might attempt to stretch. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy Crystals, > I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is visible, > though not as well as I wish. Roger > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Glenn476 > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney kit, > #B-79, > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, > with a one > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This part > has > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it > is > > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a Santa > Fe "El > > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is wood > with a > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on reading > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic > hatches. The > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be taken > for a > > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone re- > send it > > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding for > the name. > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic > coupler--I don't > > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and > was soon > > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee dreamed > up. This > > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto standard > of the > > trainset industry. > > > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with > the plastic > > cars. > > > > gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of > steel > > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To verify > > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's Varney > Guide > > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel > sides > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor and > > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided > Deluxe > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to > > know that > > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m > > familiar with > > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit > > with a wood > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > > > All best. > > > > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in > having > > to > > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of > their > > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use > their > > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the > > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog > carries > > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit > in > > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and > embossed > > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered > Reading, > > and > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > > Pacific) > > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as > above > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded > and > > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, > tank > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this > period, but > > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. The > > flat > > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out > the 8- > > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out > then. > > > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers > always > > had > > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that > changed > > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast > metal > > to > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy > > knuckle > > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > > coupler > > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided > cars. > > > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a > body > > of > > > > sheet > > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card > > > > overlays > > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one-piece > > plastic > > > > body with > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > > >> > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, > with > > > > plastic roof > > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar > and > > reefer > > > > only, > > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also > had a > > > > hook & loop > > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were > freight > > car > > > > kits > > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal > sides. > > I have > > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen > > them > > > > anywhere > > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. > Mantua > > cars > > > > had a > > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. > With > > these > > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars > and > > locos > > > > unless > > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish > I had > > > > still the > > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, > > maybe on > > > > ebay?- > > > >>> > > -John > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5008	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi all, There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt that this is the case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran across a piece in an old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production facilities of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by subcontractors. Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, but never actually manufactured anything. This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast Zamac boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers cast of lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the three types. I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's death. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when they were > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. Hard to > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today. I couldn't quite > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't look original, but if > they operate decently that's one step in the right direction; I > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use your cars. > Too bad about the box though. As I think of it, they may also have > come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I come across mine, I'll > let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a hobby shop > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. Unfortunately the box or the > trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: erieberk > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure that "MANTUA" > was > > cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state that, > but > > without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want to > say > > that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was > telling > > me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to say > > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which > someone > > might attempt to stretch. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy > Crystals, > > I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is visible, > > though not as well as I wish. Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Glenn476 > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney > kit, > > #B-79, > > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, > > with a one > > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This > part > > has > > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it > > is > > > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a > Santa > > Fe "El > > > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is > wood > > with a > > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on > reading > > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic > > hatches. The > > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be > taken > > for a > > > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone > re- > > send it > > > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding > for > > the name. > > > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic > > coupler--I don't > > > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and > > was soon > > > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee > dreamed > > up. This > > > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto > standard > > of the > > > trainset industry. > > > > > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with > > the plastic > > > cars. > > > > > > gj > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of > > steel > > > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To > verify > > > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's Varney > > Guide > > > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel > > sides > > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor > and > > > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided > > Deluxe > > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to > > > know that > > > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m > > > familiar with > > > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar > kit > > > with a wood > > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > > > > All best. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in > > having > > > to > > > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of > > their > > > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use > > their > > > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, > the > > > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog > > carries > > > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one > kit > > in > > > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and > > embossed > > > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered > > Reading, > > > and > > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered > Lehigh > > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > > > Pacific) > > > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as > > above > > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded > > and > > > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, > reefers, > > tank > > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this > > period, but > > > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. > The > > > flat > > > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out > > the 8- > > > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out > > then. > > > > > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers > > always > > > had > > > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that > > changed > > > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast > > metal > > > to > > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy > > > knuckle > > > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > > > coupler > > > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided > > cars. > > > > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a > > body > > > of > > > > > sheet > > > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed > card > > > > > overlays > > > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one- piece > > > plastic > > > > > body with > > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and > ends, > > with > > > > > plastic roof > > > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame-- boxcar > > and > > > reefer > > > > > only, > > > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They > also > > had a > > > > > hook & loop > > > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were > > freight > > > car > > > > > kits > > > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal > > sides. > > > I have > > > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never > seen > > > them > > > > > anywhere > > > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. > > Mantua > > > cars > > > > > had a > > > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. > > With > > > these > > > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars > > and > > > locos > > > > > unless > > > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I > wish > > I had > > > > > still the > > > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits > anywhere, > > > maybe on > > > > > ebay?- > > > > >>> > > -John > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5009	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote: > > Hi all, > > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney > producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt that this is the > case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran across a piece in an > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production facilities > of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by subcontractors. > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, but > never actually manufactured anything. > > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast Zamac > boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers cast of > lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the > material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the three > types. > > I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned > article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's death. > > Bill DeFoe > So maybe the situation was the reverse, Mantua making parts for Varney? John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5010	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Obviously there is a segment of Mantua production that I somehow have missed, Even when I did my clinics nobody came forward with any examples of this type car construction. Have you any references in MR I can see? what timeframe were these? I probably will not be going out to "The Basement" to look any of this up for a while--it is snowing hard and expected to continue until after 4 pm-- "The Basement" is what we call the building in which my layout, library, and shop reside. Since model railroads are traditionally built in basements, this must be one. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:15 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Alright, I can see where your confusion comes in. While these Varney metal cars

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5011	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

A couple of additional questions on these--are the roof ribs separate stampings or an integral part of the main roof stamping?  or did we establish that this was a plastic roof?  Were the ends part of the roof?  One obvious difference in the underbody, besides the material--the two crossbearers at the door are much closer together on thus one than on the Varney.  Were there other cars using this technology? or do you think that this was a one-time design as a part of the transition to the all-plastic body with Zamak frame?   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:23 AM Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer Glenn,  Forwarding Roger's Mantua photos as per your request, I hope  help again.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5012	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.; was Mantua Memories

My list of needed MR's: 1935 feb-mar-june-july-aug-sep-dec 1936 jan-feb-mar-apr-may-aug 1938 1,11. Have extras in 1940, 41, and 44. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > Glenn, Please post a list of the issues you need. While I can't help > you by having any extras, I can check for them at train meets around > here, or maybe someone else on the Group might have some. Ray > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5013	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader O.T. - was Mantua Memories

Ray--one file I have says I don't have the completer year 1941 surplus--missing Jan and Mar. So the December issue could be available. gj (location is the very far north--30 miles from Oregon border--45 miles NW of Mt. Shasta. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:36 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Model Railroader O.T. - was Mantua Memories > Sounds a bit chilly for California, depending on which area. About the > same temps here in the East. I see you posted your MR needs; didn't > expect to see this the very next post. I'll copy it for reference at > the meets. Besides those I'm missing in the 1930's, I have all years > complete (with one exception) up until 1954, where I'm missing > September ('54). I'm missing December of 1941, but I don't know if you > want to break up that year (let me know off line). Many thanks, Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> Hey--it's cold out there--down to 31 from 34--and in California! I > don't >> have any duplicate MR's in the thirties. some in 1940 and 1944, and I > think >> a full year 1941. >> >> I need: 1938, January and November >> 1936, January, February, March, April, May, August. >> 1935 February, March, June, July, August, September, December. >> glenn >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5014	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

the SP Overnight would have needed a lot of different numbers as it was run as a solid consist of black boxcars. It was the hottest train on the Coast Division--left after the Starlight and Lark, passed both enroute when they made passenger stops. do you know whether the MDC HOn3 0-6-0 was ever produced? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:07 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5015	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

OK--I think I covered most of this one in a recent post--Varney did use a combination of a wood floor with a die cast metal frame--this may be the reference to the carryover from the pre-war type kits. ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:50 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > "Replaced the Varney wood frame with the cast one"? I guess you > mean "floor"? (Varney didn't have a wood or cast frame). Looks like > you're still not convinced, since you're apparently now thinking this > was kit-bashed -- unless I'm reading this wrong! If so, what does it > take for you to acknowledge this is the genuine Mantua article? If > I'm reading this wrong, I'd appreciate some clarity on this. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the cast > one? I'd >> like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the construction of > that part >> of the car. >> >> "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks with > the >> one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged flanges. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, > guess I felt >> > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides could of > been >> > made >> > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the style > seems >> > similar. Roger >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Glenn476 >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> > >> > >> > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you please > re-send >> > the >> > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney > reefer I know >> > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the > floor, but >> > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction what > parts are >> > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, > separate roof. >> > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some of > the >> > later >> > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look like > Kadee-- >> > gj >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5016	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

how does that (no production facilities) square with his production of war equipment during WWII? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 11:38 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Hi all, There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt that this is the case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran across a piece in an old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production facilities of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by subcontractors. Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, but never actually manufactured anything. This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast Zamac boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers cast of lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the three types. I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's death. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when they were > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. Hard to > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today. I couldn't quite > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't look original, but if > they operate decently that's one step in the right direction; I > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use your cars. > Too bad about the box though. As I think of it, they may also have > come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I come across mine, I'll > let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a hobby shop > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. Unfortunately the box or the > trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: erieberk > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure that "MANTUA" > was > > cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state that, > but > > without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want to > say > > that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was > telling > > me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to say > > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which > someone > > might attempt to stretch. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy > Crystals, > > I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is visible, > > though not as well as I wish. Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Glenn476 > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney > kit, > > #B-79, > > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot assembly, > > with a one > > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This > part > > has > > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, it > > is > > > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a > Santa > > Fe "El > > > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is > wood > > with a > > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on > reading > > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic > > hatches. The > > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be > taken > > for a > > > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can someone > re- > > send it > > > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding > for > > the name. > > > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic > > coupler--I don't > > > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, and > > was soon > > > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee > dreamed > > up. This > > > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto > standard > > of the > > > trainset industry. > > > > > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary with > > the plastic > > > cars. > > > > > > gj > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production of > > steel > > > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To > verify > > > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's Varney > > Guide > > > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel > > sides > > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor > and > > > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard-sided > > Deluxe > > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad to > > > know that > > > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m > > > familiar with > > > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar > kit > > > with a wood > > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > > > > All best. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in > > having > > > to > > > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of > > their > > > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did use > > their > > > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, > the > > > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog > > carries > > > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one > kit > > in > > > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and > > embossed > > > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered > > Reading, > > > and > > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered > Lehigh > > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > > > Pacific) > > > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as > > above > > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded > > and > > > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. Mantua's > > > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, > reefers, > > tank > > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this > > period, but > > > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. > The > > > flat > > > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out > > the 8- > > > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out > > then. > > > > > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers > > always > > > had > > > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that > > changed > > > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast > > metal > > > to > > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic dummy > > > knuckle > > > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > > > coupler > > > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided > > cars. > > > > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with a > > body > > > of > > > > > sheet > > > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed > card > > > > > overlays > > > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one- piece > > > plastic > > > > > body with > > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and > ends, > > with > > > > > plastic roof > > > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame-- boxcar > > and > > > reefer > > > > > only, > > > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They > also > > had a > > > > > hook & loop > > > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were > > freight > > > car > > > > > kits > > > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal > > sides. > > > I have > > > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never > seen > > > them > > > > > anywhere > > > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. > > Mantua > > > cars > > > > > had a > > > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. > > With > > > these > > > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars > > and > > > locos > > > > > unless > > > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I > wish > > I had > > > > > still the > > > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits > anywhere, > > > maybe on > > > > > ebay?- > > > > >>> > > -John > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5017	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

Hello Glenn The body is a one piece plastic casting, which the metal sides fit to and are held on by bent over tabs. The sides have seperately applied ladders. The floor is a metal casting, I replaced the trucks and couplers with KD;s. It makes a fairly good looking car especially compared to other early plastic. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer A couple of additional questions on these--are the roof ribs separate stampings or an integral part of the main roof stamping? or did we establish that this was a plastic roof? Were the ends part of the roof? One obvious difference in the underbody, besides the material--the two crossbearers at the door are much closer together on thus one than on the Varney. Were there other cars using this technology? or do you think that this was a one-time design as a part of the transition to the all-plastic body with Zamak frame? gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5018	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Glen.     I too bought the Athearn Standard Guide thinking it would be a good reference.  As we both now know it is, but not for Athearn metal.  It’s focused on Athearn plastic.  I’m not aware of an Athearn web site but perhaps someone else in the vintage HO group is.  There is a separate Yahoo discussion group on Athearn, but if your interest is in metal rather than plastic, I believe that this group is a better source of information and commentary.  A good book to have, by the way, is Greenberg’s Guide to Athearn Trains by Dallas J. Mallerich.  There’s a very comprehensive section devoted to Athearn metal in both HO and O gauge.  There’s a separate section at the back of the book devoted to Globe.  Both sections list road names and car numbers (reporting marks) for each car produced by these two  manufacturers.  The Greenberg Guide and the Standard Guide both have sections on Athearn boxes, and these sections discuss and date the various boxes that the metal cars came in.  Hope this helps.                                                                                                                                             Lou      On 1/31/08 10:49 AM, "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> wrote:     Lou,  Just opened all my boxes of trains that I've been collecting since 1964.  I noticed that I have the Seaboard #19264 round roof 40' box car in the yellow #6 Athearn box.  Is there any Athearn web site I could join to get some answers on the rest of my collection?  I did purchase the Standard Guide to Athearn Model Trains, but there are some kits I have that are not listed in this book.   Thanks in advance,  Glen Thomas --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Don, > >     The Athearn metal single-door round-roof car was made in at least four > road names: PRR, Detroit Toledo & Ironton, Seaboard, and N&W, each road name > with multiple car numbers.  They all show up for sale from time to time at > train meets and elsewhere ranging in condition from mint kit, to well-built > finished cars, to junk (for parts).  None is rare to my knowledge.   I have > examples of all except for the Seaboard. >     Best wishes, and happy New Year. > >                     > Lou Greiff > > > On 1/1/08 7:23 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5019	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: re Mantua memories

Attachments : Attached is a scan of the inside front cover of Model Railroader August 1956. Mantua's full page add describing the plastic/metal reefer, unfortunately there is not a assembly view. Love those prices. Roger

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5020	From: erieberk	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Bill, I appreciate your forwarding this interesting bit of "information" that you read a few months ago, but I regret to say I find this very hard (read: impossible) to believe. Just as Glenn points out, the War effort and Varney converting his machinery over to it was the first thing that came into my mind. While some of these types of articles in the magazines may look interesting, there is nothing to say these authors may not have their facts straight. How would the notion that Varney had no production facilities explain the fact that Gordon Varney sold all the tool, dies and manufacturing rights to the entire line of products to Sol Kramer in 1957? How also, could Sol Kramer then sell all the tooling (including the stamping machines) to Dick Mercer in 1968 to enable Mercer to coninue making the metal line of cars for his Alcvo Engineering firm -- and how then, after that time could Lew English buy this tooling to produce his Bowser line of Varney-style metal cars? Lew English also bought the Varney "Casey Jones" and "Old Lady Consolidation" dies from Sol Kramer -- who bought them from Gordon Varney. These dies must have existed, because Bowser is producing these engines today. How too, could Life-Like had bought the dies and injection molding machines in 1969 from Sol Kramer (who bought them from Varney) for the Varney plastic cars, if Varney didn't have this equipment? Just some things to think about. I'll cover (explain) the second part of your post dealing with dating the Varney products in my subsequent reply, after I compare the various points I have in mind, of my models which I want to emphasize. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote: > > Hi all, > > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney > producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt that this is the > case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran across a piece in an > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production facilities > of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by subcontractors. > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, but > never actually manufactured anything. > > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast Zamac > boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers cast of > lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the > material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the three > types. > > I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned > article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's death. > > Bill DeFoe > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when they > were > > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. Hard > to > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today. I couldn't > quite > > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > > familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't look original, but > if > > they operate decently that's one step in the right direction; I > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use your > cars. > > Too bad about the box though. As I think of it, they may also have > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I come across mine, > I'll > > let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a hobby > shop > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. Unfortunately the box or the > > trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: erieberk > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure that "MANTUA" > > was > > > cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state that, > > but > > > without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want to > > say > > > that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was > > telling > > > me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to say > > > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which > > someone > > > might attempt to stretch. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy > > Crystals, > > > I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is > visible, > > > though not as well as I wish. Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Glenn476 > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > > > > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney > > kit, > > > #B-79, > > > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot > assembly, > > > with a one > > > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This > > part > > > has > > > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, > it > > > is > > > > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a > > Santa > > > Fe "El > > > > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is > > wood > > > with a > > > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on > > reading > > > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic > > > hatches. The > > > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be > > taken > > > for a > > > > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can > someone > > re- > > > send it > > > > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding > > for > > > the name. > > > > > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic > > > coupler--I don't > > > > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, > and > > > was soon > > > > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee > > dreamed > > > up. This > > > > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto > > standard > > > of the > > > > trainset industry. > > > > > > > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary > with > > > the plastic > > > > cars. > > > > > > > > gj > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production > of > > > steel > > > > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To > > verify > > > > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's > Varney > > > Guide > > > > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel > > > sides > > > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor > > and > > > > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard- sided > > > Deluxe > > > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad > to > > > > know that > > > > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m > > > > familiar with > > > > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar > > kit > > > > with a wood > > > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > > > > > All best. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in > > > having > > > > to > > > > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of > > > their > > > > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did > use > > > their > > > > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, > > the > > > > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog > > > carries > > > > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one > > kit > > > in > > > > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and > > > embossed > > > > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered > > > Reading, > > > > and > > > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > > > > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered > > Lehigh > > > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > > > > Pacific) > > > > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as > > > above > > > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, > welded > > > and > > > > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. > Mantua's > > > > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, > > reefers, > > > tank > > > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this > > > period, but > > > > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. > > The > > > > flat > > > > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought > out > > > the 8- > > > > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out > > > then. > > > > > > > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers > > > always > > > > had > > > > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that > > > changed > > > > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from > cast > > > metal > > > > to > > > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic > dummy > > > > knuckle > > > > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > > > > coupler > > > > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board > sided > > > cars. > > > > > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > > > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with > a > > > body > > > > of > > > > > > sheet > > > > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed > > card > > > > > > overlays > > > > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one- > piece > > > > plastic > > > > > > body with > > > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and > > ends, > > > with > > > > > > plastic roof > > > > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame-- > boxcar > > > and > > > > reefer > > > > > > only, > > > > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They > > also > > > had a > > > > > > hook & loop > > > > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > > > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were > > > freight > > > > car > > > > > > kits > > > > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had > metal > > > sides. > > > > I have > > > > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never > > seen > > > > them > > > > > > anywhere > > > > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. > > > Mantua > > > > cars > > > > > > had a > > > > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the > trucks. > > > With > > > > these > > > > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua > cars > > > and > > > > locos > > > > > > unless > > > > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I > > wish > > > I had > > > > > > still the > > > > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits > > anywhere, > > > > maybe on > > > > > > ebay?- > > > > > >>> > > -John > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5021	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Ray---it stopped snowing--went out and checked the MR duplicates. I DO have the full year 1941--but not 1940 ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:48 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5022	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Ray and Glenn, You certainly bring up some valid points which dispute what I read. I will really try to find that article, just out of curiosity. Maybe I was having a senior moment and read it wrong. Does anyone know the date of Varney's death? That might help me to find it. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hi Bill, I appreciate your forwarding this interesting bit > of "information" that you read a few months ago, but I regret to say > I find this very hard (read: impossible) to believe. Just as Glenn > points out, the War effort and Varney converting his machinery over > to it was the first thing that came into my mind. While some of > these types of articles in the magazines may look interesting, there > is nothing to say these authors may not have their facts straight. > How would the notion that Varney had no production facilities explain > the fact that Gordon Varney sold all the tool, dies and manufacturing > rights to the entire line of products to Sol Kramer in 1957? How > also, could Sol Kramer then sell all the tooling (including the > stamping machines) to Dick Mercer in 1968 to enable Mercer to coninue > making the metal line of cars for his Alcvo Engineering firm -- and > how then, after that time could Lew English buy this tooling to > produce his Bowser line of Varney-style metal cars? Lew English also > bought the Varney "Casey Jones" and "Old Lady Consolidation" dies > from Sol Kramer -- who bought them from Gordon Varney. These dies > must have existed, because Bowser is producing these engines today. > How too, could Life-Like had bought the dies and injection molding > machines in 1969 from Sol Kramer (who bought them from Varney) for > the Varney plastic cars, if Varney didn't have this equipment? Just > some things to think about. > > I'll cover (explain) the second part of your post dealing with dating > the Varney products in my subsequent reply, after I compare the > various points I have in mind, of my models which I want to > emphasize. Ray Wetzel > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5023	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

So there are plastic sides under the metal ones? well, that makes it mote like the "heavies" as they called them later. Have you peeked under the metal? is there a riveted body there, or completely smooth sides? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer > Hello Glenn The body is a one piece plastic casting, which the metal > sides fit to and are held on by bent over tabs. The sides have seperately > applied ladders. The floor is a metal casting, I replaced the trucks and > couplers with KD;s. It makes a fairly good looking car especially > compared > to other early plastic. Roger > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5024	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: re Mantua memories

Thanks--I'll have to look thru the MR's for areview. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: "VINTAGE H-0" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:25 PM Subject: [vintageHO] re Mantua memories > Attached is a scan of the inside front cover of Model Railroader August > 1956. Mantua's full page add describing the plastic/metal reefer, > unfortunately there is not a assembly view. Love those prices. Roger > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5025	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:49 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Lou, > Just opened all my boxes of trains that I've been collecting > since 1964. I noticed that I have the Seaboard #19264 round roof 40' > box car in the yellow #6 Athearn box. > Is there any Athearn web site I could join to get some answers > on the rest of my collection? I did purchase the Standard Guide to > Athearn Model Trains, but there are some kits I have that are not > listed in this book. > > Thanks in advance, Glen Thomas The Athearn Yahoo group probably wouldn't even know what you're talking about if you ask a question about metal kits, they seem to be pretty much just into the contemporary stuff. Probably more knowledgable people about early Athearn right here. BTW, I notice from your profile you're in Waukesha. NW Side of Milwaukee here. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5026	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

FWIW, I have three Varney metal reefers.  One has a wood floor, one has a die cast floor and one has a molded plastic floor.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Hi Ray,     Thanks for all the useful information.  I’m especially glad to know that Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars.  I’m familiar with both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar kit with a wood floor which I wasn’t sure was original.     All best.                                                                                                                                     Lou Greiff On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Hi Glenn,  Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in having to say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers.  Yes, Varney did use their type of hook & loop couplers for a while. Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, the earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938.  This catalog carries only three freight car models (all factory built) and one kit in their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and embossed card overlays yet.  These cars included: Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered Reading, and numbered 90274.  Price $4.25 Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered Lehigh Valley, and numbered 3140.  Price $3.00 Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & Pacific) and numbered (number unknown).  $Price $2.75 Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as above caboose.  Price $2.00 Note:  ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, welded and soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler.  Mantua's embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, reefers, tank cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this period, but before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them.  The flat car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought out the 8- wheel caboose).  The old time passenger cars also came out then. With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers always had a factory painted steel roof.   It was the floor only that changed first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from cast metal to molded plastic (in 1954).  They used the molded plastic dummy knuckle couplers during the metal car period.  Varney's hook & loop coupler was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board sided cars.   Best,  Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I think you are mixing two brands.  Mantua started with a body of sheet > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed card overlays > finished the car.  They eventually changed to a one-piece plastic body with > a die cast floor/frame. > > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and ends, with plastic roof > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame--boxcar and reefer only, > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They also had a hook & loop > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were freight car kits > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had metal sides. I have > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never seen them anywhere > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. Mantua cars had a > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the trucks. With these > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua cars and locos unless > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I wish I had still the > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits anywhere, maybe on ebay?- > > -John > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5027	From: Glen	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Don,     Yes, I live just north of Big Bend.   I have a very large collection of ho trains that I been collecting since the 60's.  I bought most of Garman's Hobby Shop inventory in West Allis before Happy Hobbies took over and also Casanova's Hobby Store when they got out of the hobby business.  Use to hang around with the old man on 51st and Center for many years.  In the 50's and 60's, I use to help package La Belle kit out in Oconomowoc after school.  Boy do I miss those guys......   Anyways, I'm trying to figure out what some of my kits are going for today and then I'll be putting them on my web site I created... Cream City Trains  www.cctrains.com     I just finished the major portion of the site and started to list some items.      Next time I get to the North side when I do a welding project, I should look you up.  I saw you layout and was very impressed.  I'm going to do a switch back module of a small town (1910/1920) above the mining and logging companies on the lower portion.  Aprox. 18' x 4.5".  I want to display it in the next Trainfest at the State Fair.   Have to head out now...   Glen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@wi. rr.com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:49 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Lou, > Just opened all my boxes of trains that I've been collecting > since 1964. I noticed that I have the Seaboard #19264 round roof 40' > box car in the yellow #6 Athearn box. > Is there any Athearn web site I could join to get some answers > on the rest of my collection? I did purchase the Standard Guide to > Athearn Model Trains, but there are some kits I have that are not > listed in this book. > > Thanks in advance, Glen Thomas The Athearn Yahoo group probably wouldn't even know what you're talking about if you ask a question about metal kits, they seem to be pretty much just into the contemporary stuff. Probably more knowledgable people about early Athearn right here. BTW, I notice from your profile you're in Waukesha. NW Side of Milwaukee here. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5028	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

That is right the one piece casting looks like a regular plaastic one piece body except for the side area which is smooth and has slots for the tabs on the metal sides to be inserted. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer So there are plastic sides under the metal ones? well, that makes it mote like the "heavies" as they called them later. Have you peeked under the metal? is there a riveted body there, or completely smooth sides? gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5029	From: Glenn476	Date: 1/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

so basically it's the car type that followed the metal/card overlay line--with the litho sheet metal overlay. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer > That is right the one piece casting looks like a regular plaastic one > piece > body except for the side area which is smooth and has slots for the tabs > on > the metal sides to be inserted. Roger > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn476 > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:02 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer > > > So there are plastic sides under the metal ones? well, that makes it mote > like the "heavies" as they called them later. Have you peeked under the > metal? is there a riveted body there, or completely smooth sides? gj > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5030	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Bill, Gordon Varney died in Chicago on September 7, 1965 at the age of 66. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote: > > Ray and Glenn, > > You certainly bring up some valid points which dispute what I read. > I will really try to find that article, just out of curiosity. Maybe > I was having a senior moment and read it wrong. Does anyone know the > date of Varney's death? That might help me to find it. > > Bill DeFoe > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, I appreciate your forwarding this interesting bit > > of "information" that you read a few months ago, but I regret to > say > > I find this very hard (read: impossible) to believe. Just as Glenn > > points out, the War effort and Varney converting his machinery over > > to it was the first thing that came into my mind. While some of > > these types of articles in the magazines may look interesting, > there > > is nothing to say these authors may not have their facts straight. > > How would the notion that Varney had no production facilities > explain > > the fact that Gordon Varney sold all the tool, dies and > manufacturing > > rights to the entire line of products to Sol Kramer in 1957? How > > also, could Sol Kramer then sell all the tooling (including the > > stamping machines) to Dick Mercer in 1968 to enable Mercer to > coninue > > making the metal line of cars for his Alcvo Engineering firm -- and > > how then, after that time could Lew English buy this tooling to > > produce his Bowser line of Varney-style metal cars? Lew English > also > > bought the Varney "Casey Jones" and "Old Lady Consolidation" dies > > from Sol Kramer -- who bought them from Gordon Varney. These dies > > must have existed, because Bowser is producing these engines > today. > > How too, could Life-Like had bought the dies and injection molding > > machines in 1969 from Sol Kramer (who bought them from Varney) for > > the Varney plastic cars, if Varney didn't have this equipment? > Just > > some things to think about. > > > > I'll cover (explain) the second part of your post dealing with > dating > > the Varney products in my subsequent reply, after I compare the > > various points I have in mind, of my models which I want to > > emphasize. Ray Wetzel > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5031	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Glenn, Alright, I'm not disputing that Varney used a combination wooden floor with a die-cast frame on some of his early metal cars. This should be a well known fact; I have a number of them myself. I may have mis-read your earlier post wrong as it appeared to me that you were saying (1) that Varney used a wood frame (not wood floor), and (2) that maybe you were trying to tell us that a wood Varney floor on this Mantua reefer was possibly replaced by a cast floor (still pressing that this car was really a Varney). I was looking for you to clarify what you meant by "wood frame," as when I think in those terms the construction of Globe metal cars comes to my mind (they have a wood frame over which the metal sides, ends and roof are installed. I think at this point, you also may have misread my question, going by your answer (which I wasn't asking), but we'll let it go at that. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > OK--I think I covered most of this one in a recent post--Varney did use a > combination of a wood floor with a die cast metal frame--this may be the > reference to the carryover from the pre-war type kits. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:50 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > "Replaced the Varney wood frame with the cast one"? I guess you > > mean "floor"? (Varney didn't have a wood or cast frame). Looks like > > you're still not convinced, since you're apparently now thinking this > > was kit-bashed -- unless I'm reading this wrong! If so, what does it > > take for you to acknowledge this is the genuine Mantua article? If > > I'm reading this wrong, I'd appreciate some clarity on this. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the cast > > one? I'd > >> like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the construction of > > that part > >> of the car. > >> > >> "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks with > > the > >> one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged flanges. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, > > guess I felt > >> > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides could of > > been > >> > made > >> > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the style > > seems > >> > similar. Roger > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Glenn476 > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> > > >> > > >> > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you please > > re-send > >> > the > >> > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney > > reefer I know > >> > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the > > floor, but > >> > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction what > > parts are > >> > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, > > separate roof. > >> > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some of > > the > >> > later > >> > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look like > > Kadee-- > >> > gj > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5032	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: re Mantua memories

Hi Roger, Thank you for finding the Mantua ad in MR. The attachment didn't come through on my end but maybe its just my PC that has the problem. Even though I didn't get it, that's of no significance -- at least we all know where to look for it now (August '56, MR) which should put this "debate" to rest once and for all. Should have been unnecessary to begin with, or maybe there are still unbelievers out there. I'd venture a guess that even if some people were presented with one in hand, that they'd still find some way of saying that it was a kitbash job of original Varney manufacture. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > Attached is a scan of the inside front cover of Model Railroader August > 1956. Mantua's full page add describing the plastic/metal reefer, > unfortunately there is not a assembly view. Love those prices. Roger >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5033	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

Can I detect that with Roger's further description of these cars, and the Mantua MR ad that was supplied, that you're finally accepting this? We're not trying to snow you, but you're sure a hard sell (LOL). Glad to see you've seen the light <g>. Have a good one! Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > so basically it's the car type that followed the metal/card overlay > line--with the litho sheet metal overlay. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:33 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer > > > > That is right the one piece casting looks like a regular plaastic one > > piece > > body except for the side area which is smooth and has slots for the tabs > > on > > the metal sides to be inserted. Roger > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Glenn476 > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer > > > > > > So there are plastic sides under the metal ones? well, that makes it mote > > like the "heavies" as they called them later. Have you peeked under the > > metal? is there a riveted body there, or completely smooth sides? gj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5034	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

Roger, That's a fairly good description in your mention of the smooth side areas of the plastic body (with slots) that the metal sides lay up against (plus the fact that its a one-piece plastic body -- I thought that was brought out before(?). Actually, your earlier photo of the car appeared to show the metal side snuggled up against the plastic body, but maybe it wasn't that obvious to someone unfamiliar with it, although it was brought out that the metal side panels had tabs. It certainly showed that the metal sides weren't one-piece side/end "L" shaped panels. Thanks for this post and for digging out that MR issue -- it saved me a lot of work digging into my MR's. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > That is right the one piece casting looks like a regular plaastic one piece > body except for the side area which is smooth and has slots for the tabs on > the metal sides to be inserted. Roger > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn476 > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:02 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer > > > So there are plastic sides under the metal ones? well, that makes it mote > like the "heavies" as they called them later. Have you peeked under the > metal? is there a riveted body there, or completely smooth sides? gj >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5035	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Lou, After reading you post, I feel I should follow up on my same recommendation I made earlier concerning "Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Train" (by Dallas J. Mallerich III). Now I know why I never bought the "Athearn Standard Guide," and glad I didn't as it would not have been much help to me for what I collect. I never actually had a chance to check over the "Athearn Standard Guide," but I did know back in 1996 - '97 (a year before this book came out) that the authors, Tim Blaisdell and Ed Urmston were very heavily into Athearn plastic -- nothing wrong with that; I can respect plastic collectors, I just don't avidly collect most it myself. It was for this reason that I dropped out of that group after a couple of years (I was originally invited to join by Tim), not seeing any Athearn metal mentioned which I had expected. So, contrary to my earlier recommendation of contacting Tim for info on these metal cars, I guess we can forget about the possibility of his having very much knowledge on them, as it seems to appear. We did do spread sheets on them, which would help in identifying most of their numbers, but Mallerich's Guide would probably be out the best source for prices even if somewhat outdated. The prices I put in the book at that time at least reflect the ratio of prices when comparing the rarer road names to the more common kits, indicating to the reader which ones are the more desireable (scarcer) in trying to obtain. I did try to price them all somewhat with the future in mind, but such inflation over 20 years is impossible to foresee. I'd say that by multiplying those prices given, by 2 1/2 times, should give a fairly realistic estimate of what the metal cars are worth today. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Glen. > > I too bought the Athearn Standard Guide thinking it would be a good > reference. As we both now know it is, but not for Athearn metal. It¹s > focused on Athearn plastic. I¹m not aware of an Athearn web site but > perhaps someone else in the vintage HO group is. There is a separate Yahoo > discussion group on Athearn, but if your interest is in metal rather than > plastic, I believe that this group is a better source of information and > commentary. A good book to have, by the way, is Greenberg¹s Guide to > Athearn Trains by Dallas J. Mallerich. There¹s a very comprehensive section > devoted to Athearn metal in both HO and O gauge. There¹s a separate section > at the back of the book devoted to Globe. Both sections list road names and > car numbers (reporting marks) for each car produced by these two > manufacturers. The Greenberg Guide and the Standard Guide both have > sections on Athearn boxes, and these sections discuss and date the various > boxes that the metal cars came in. Hope this helps. > > > Lou > > > > On 1/31/08 10:49 AM, "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Lou, > > Just opened all my boxes of trains that I've been collecting > > since 1964. I noticed that I have the Seaboard #19264 round roof 40' > > box car in the yellow #6 Athearn box. > > Is there any Athearn web site I could join to get some answers > > on the rest of my collection? I did purchase the Standard Guide to > > Athearn Model Trains, but there are some kits I have that are not > > listed in this book. > > > > Thanks in advance, Glen Thomas > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Don, > >> > > >> > The Athearn metal single-door round-roof car was made in at > > least four > >> > road names: PRR, Detroit Toledo & Ironton, Seaboard, and N&W, each > > road name > >> > with multiple car numbers. They all show up for sale from time to > > time at > >> > train meets and elsewhere ranging in condition from mint kit, to > > well-built > >> > finished cars, to junk (for parts). None is rare to my knowledge. > > I have > >> > examples of all except for the Seaboard. > >> > Best wishes, and happy New Year. > >> > > >> > > >> > Lou Greiff > >> > > >> > > >> > On 1/1/08 7:23 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote: > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5036	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories

Glenn, If you don't mind breaking the year up, and don't mind holding the December 1941 issue for me until I can find you a trade, I'd much appreciate it. Unless you'd sell it outright, in which case let me know off-line (< Erieberk@... >). Many thanks, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Ray---it stopped snowing--went out and checked the MR duplicates. I DO have > the full year 1941--but not 1940 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:48 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5037	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hello again Bill, Getting back to dating Varney locos by the material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the major points of the more popular models and also some dates that the material for them was introduced, while trying not to write a book here. I know some of this information will be repetitious to some of the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- and I also know due to the many varieties that this won't be exactly short either, but here goes something. Any particular models that I'm leaving out -- and there will intentionally be some -- feel free to ask if its of interest to you. Of course the easiest way to distinguish pre-War from post-War engines is by the motors and frames that were used. As most of us know, the pre-War engines all used the V-1 motor, first introduced in 1938 as 6 volt, but which was soon modified (either by re-winding, or by an aftermarket 6 land armature) to 12 volts (same motor) by 1941. On top of that, the pre-War frames were cast zamac with copper leaf springs and floating bearing blocks; post-War was either channel brass (one-piece) or stamped two-piece brass to be assembled with frame rivets. That's the easy and fast part of telling those two general eras apart. Now for the more pertinent stuff, and ways to date the boiler material even without having an attached frame. Varney started out in 1938 with two cast brass/broze boilers; one Reading type I-10 Class consolidation boiler and the other a Southern Pacific type P- 13 Class pacific boiler, both used for a wider variety of kits including the Consolidation, Pacific, Switcher (0-8-0) and Mikado. These were carried into 1941 when the material for the Pacific/Mikado boiler was changed to cast lead/zamac. The Reading I-10 boilered Consolidation and Switcher were not offered after the War. Also in 1938, The Yellowstone kit and the "Shorty" (4-8-4) GG-1 Electric was introduced, both with cast aluminum boiler/body. In 1939, the Streamlined Pacific kit was introduced, also using a cast brass/bronze boiler in addition to the first two boilers. Now the "tricky" part for some collectors (but the giveaway) -- how not to be confused between the cast lead pre-War boiler and the cast lead post-War boiler. The pre-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado boiler did not have any of the details cast on below the walkways -- this included the air tanks, power reverse, air pump, tubing and feed- water heater, which the modeler had to install. The post-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado boiler had all this detail cast on, except for the air pump and feed-water heater. The post-War Yellowstone boiler (no longer available as a kit) was changed to cast brass/bronze. A new cast lead Heavy Consolidation and Heavy Switcher boiler came out also, after the War, in 1947. The Streamlined Pacific Boiler was now used for the Streamlined Hudson kit coming out in 1948. Sure anyone could have changed the trailing truck to a 2-axle, but then too, most Varney running gear components for the Pacific, Mikado, Berkshire and Hudsons (Standard and Streamlined) were interchangeable, and anyone could make a Berkshire or Standard Hudson using a cast lead Pacific boiler if they wanted to, but we're talking about original here. The cast brass boilers for the Standard Hudson, Mikado and Berkshire came out in 1949. During the Korean War, this Hudson and the Bershire were temporarily discontinued and the Mikado was changed to a cast lead boiler. After this War, production on these three was resumed with the cast brass boilers again. The distinctive Northern cast brass boiler came out in 1949 as well, and the extremely well detailed cast lead-tin Berkshire came out in 1966 (having extensive detail cast in). The Casey Jones 10-Wheeler came out in 1953, but the Old Lady Consol didn't come out until 1957. That about the brief of it most of it; its not really very difficult to know about when these engines came out once you familiarize yourself with these little features. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote: > > Hi all, > > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney > producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt that this is the > case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran across a piece in an > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production facilities > of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by subcontractors. > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, but > never actually manufactured anything. > > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast Zamac > boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers cast of > lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the > material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the three > types. > > I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned > article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's death. > > Bill DeFoe > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when they > were > > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. Hard > to > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today. I couldn't > quite > > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > > familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't look original, but > if > > they operate decently that's one step in the right direction; I > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use your > cars. > > Too bad about the box though. As I think of it, they may also have > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I come across mine, > I'll > > let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a hobby > shop > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. Unfortunately the box or the > > trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: erieberk > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure that "MANTUA" > > was > > > cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state that, > > but > > > without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want to > > say > > > that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was > > telling > > > me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to say > > > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which > > someone > > > might attempt to stretch. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy > > Crystals, > > > I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is > visible, > > > though not as well as I wish. Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Glenn476 > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > > > > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney > > kit, > > > #B-79, > > > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot > assembly, > > > with a one > > > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This > > part > > > has > > > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, > it > > > is > > > > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a > > Santa > > > Fe "El > > > > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is > > wood > > > with a > > > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on > > reading > > > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic > > > hatches. The > > > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be > > taken > > > for a > > > > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can > someone > > re- > > > send it > > > > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding > > for > > > the name. > > > > > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic > > > coupler--I don't > > > > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, > and > > > was soon > > > > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee > > dreamed > > > up. This > > > > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto > > standard > > > of the > > > > trainset industry. > > > > > > > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary > with > > > the plastic > > > > cars. > > > > > > > > gj > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production > of > > > steel > > > > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To > > verify > > > > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's > Varney > > > Guide > > > > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel > > > sides > > > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor > > and > > > > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard- sided > > > Deluxe > > > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially glad > to > > > > know that > > > > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I¹m > > > > familiar with > > > > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar > > kit > > > > with a wood > > > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > > > > > All best. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou Greiff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in > > > having > > > > to > > > > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of > > > their > > > > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did > use > > > their > > > > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, > > the > > > > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog > > > carries > > > > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one > > kit > > > in > > > > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and > > > embossed > > > > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > > > > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered > > > Reading, > > > > and > > > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > > > > > > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered > > Lehigh > > > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > > > > Pacific) > > > > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > > > > > > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as > > > above > > > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, > welded > > > and > > > > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. > Mantua's > > > > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, > > reefers, > > > tank > > > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this > > > period, but > > > > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. > > The > > > > flat > > > > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought > out > > > the 8- > > > > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out > > > then. > > > > > > > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers > > > always > > > > had > > > > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that > > > changed > > > > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from > cast > > > metal > > > > to > > > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic > dummy > > > > knuckle > > > > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > > > > coupler > > > > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board > sided > > > cars. > > > > > > Best, Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > > > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with > a > > > body > > > > of > > > > > > sheet > > > > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed > > card > > > > > > overlays > > > > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one- > piece > > > > plastic > > > > > > body with > > > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and > > ends, > > > with > > > > > > plastic roof > > > > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame-- > boxcar > > > and > > > > reefer > > > > > > only, > > > > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They > > also > > > had a > > > > > > hook & loop > > > > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > > > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were > > > freight > > > > car > > > > > > kits > > > > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had > metal > > > sides. > > > > I have > > > > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never > > seen > > > > them > > > > > > anywhere > > > > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. > > > Mantua > > > > cars > > > > > > had a > > > > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the > trucks. > > > With > > > > these > > > > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua > cars > > > and > > > > locos > > > > > > unless > > > > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I > > wish > > > I had > > > > > > still the > > > > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits > > anywhere, > > > > maybe on > > > > > > ebay?- > > > > > >>> > > -John > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5038	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Ray---it stopped snowing Anyone wanna come over and shovel my snow? I'll have nice fresh, hot coffee for ya. I only charge $0.75 a cup to shovelers. John Hagen St. Francis, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5039	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Ray,     Thanks for the very useful and comprehensive review of the evolution of Varney steam locomotives.  In your last paragraph which dates the lead-tin Berkshire boiler, did you mean to write 1956 instead of 1966?  I ask because I bought mine while I was in the service, which was between 1960 and 1963.     Best wishes, and thanks again for the information. On 2/1/08 9:43 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Hello again Bill,  Getting back to dating Varney locos by the material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the major points of the more popular models and also some dates that the material for them was introduced, while trying not to write a book here.  I know some of this information will be repetitious to some of the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- and I also know due to the many varieties that this won't be exactly short either, but here goes something. Any particular models that I'm leaving out -- and there will intentionally be some -- feel free to ask if its of interest to you.   Of course the easiest way to distinguish pre-War from post-War engines is by the motors and frames that were used.  As most of us know, the pre-War engines all used the V-1 motor, first introduced in 1938 as 6 volt, but which was soon modified (either by re-winding, or by an aftermarket 6 land armature) to 12 volts (same motor) by 1941.   On top of that, the pre-War frames were cast zamac with copper leaf springs and floating bearing blocks; post-War was either channel brass (one-piece) or stamped two-piece brass to be assembled  with frame rivets.  That's the easy and fast part of telling those two general eras apart. Now for the more pertinent stuff, and ways to date the boiler material even without having an attached frame.  Varney started out in 1938 with two cast brass/broze boilers; one Reading type I-10 Class consolidation boiler and the other  a Southern Pacific type P- 13 Class pacific boiler, both used for a wider variety of kits including the Consolidation, Pacific, Switcher (0-8-0) and Mikado.   These were carried into 1941 when the material for the Pacific/Mikado boiler was changed to cast lead/zamac.  The Reading I-10 boilered Consolidation and Switcher were not offered after the War.  Also in 1938, The Yellowstone kit and the "Shorty" (4-8-4) GG-1 Electric was introduced, both with cast aluminum boiler/body.  In 1939, the Streamlined Pacific kit was introduced, also using a cast brass/bronze boiler in addition to the first two boilers. Now the "tricky" part for some collectors (but the giveaway) -- how not to be confused between the cast lead pre-War boiler and the cast lead post-War boiler.  The pre-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado boiler did not have any of the details cast on below the walkways -- this included the air tanks, power reverse, air pump, tubing and feed- water heater, which the modeler had to install.  The post-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado boiler had all this detail cast on, except for the air pump and feed-water heater. The post-War Yellowstone boiler (no longer available as a kit) was changed to cast brass/bronze.   A new cast lead Heavy Consolidation and Heavy Switcher boiler came out also, after the War, in 1947.  The Streamlined Pacific Boiler was now used for the Streamlined Hudson kit coming out in 1948.  Sure anyone could have changed the trailing truck to a 2-axle, but then too, most Varney running gear components for the Pacific, Mikado, Berkshire and Hudsons (Standard and Streamlined) were interchangeable, and anyone could make a Berkshire or Standard Hudson using a cast lead Pacific boiler if they wanted to, but we're talking about original here. The cast brass boilers for the Standard Hudson, Mikado and Berkshire came out in 1949.  During the Korean War, this Hudson and the Bershire were temporarily discontinued and the Mikado was changed to a cast lead boiler.  After this War, production on these three was resumed with the cast brass boilers again.   The distinctive Northern cast brass boiler came out in 1949 as well, and the extremely well detailed cast lead-tin Berkshire came out in 1966 (having extensive detail cast in).  The Casey Jones 10-Wheeler came out in 1953, but the Old Lady Consol didn't come out until 1957.  That about the brief of it most of it; its not really very difficult to know about when these engines came out once you familiarize yourself with these little features.  Ray Wetzel    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote: > > Hi all, > > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney > producing the sides for the Mantua cars.  I doubt that this is the > case for one reason.  A couple months ago I ran across a piece in an > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production facilities > of his own.  ALL parts for his kits were produced by subcontractors.   > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, but > never actually manufactured anything. > > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast Zamac > boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers cast of > lead.  I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the > material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the three > types. > > I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned > article.  I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's death. > > Bill DeFoe > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Hi Roger,  Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when they > were > > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while.   Hard > to > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today.  I couldn't > quite > > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > > familiar.  At first glance, those trucks didn't look original, but > if > > they operate decently that's one step in the right direction; I > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use your > cars.   > > Too bad about the box though.  As I think of it, they may also have > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes.  When I come across mine, > I'll > > let you know.  Best,  Ray Wetzel > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello Ray   I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a hobby > shop > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone.  Unfortunately the box or the > > trucks were not saved.   Roger Aultman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   ----- Original Message ----- > > >   From: erieberk > > >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>   > > >   Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > > >   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > > > > > >   Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure that "MANTUA" > > was > > >   cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state that, > > but > > >   without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want to > > say > > >   that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was > > telling > > >   me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to say > > >   these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which > > someone > > >   might attempt to stretch. Ray > > > > > >   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > > >   > > > >   > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy > > Crystals, > > >   I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is > visible, > > >   though not as well as I wish. Roger > > >   > > > >   > > > >   > > > >   > > > >   > ----- Original Message ----- > > >   > From: Glenn476 > > >   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>   > > >   > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > > >   > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > >   > > > >   > > > >   > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney > > kit, > > >   #B-79, > > >   > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot > assembly, > > >   with a one > > >   > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This > > part > > >   has > > >   > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the doors, > it > > >   is > > >   > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a > > Santa > > >   Fe "El > > >   > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor is > > wood > > >   with a > > >   > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on > > reading > > >   > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic > > >   hatches. The > > >   > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be > > taken > > >   for a > > >   > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can > someone > > re- > > >   send it > > >   > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic molding > > for > > >   the name. > > >   > > > >   > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic > > >   coupler--I don't > > >   > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, > and > > >   was soon > > >   > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee > > dreamed > > >   up. This > > >   > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto > > standard > > >   of the > > >   > trainset industry. > > >   > > > >   > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary > with > > >   the plastic > > >   > cars. > > >   > > > >   > gj > > >   > > > >   > ----- Original Message ----- > > >   > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > > >   > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > > >   > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > > >   > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > >   > > > >   > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production > of > > >   steel > > >   > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To > > verify > > >   > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's > Varney > > >   Guide > > >   > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet steel > > >   sides > > >   > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden floor > > and > > >   > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard- sided > > >   Deluxe > > >   > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > > >   > > > >   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@> > > wrote: > > >   > > > > >   > > Hi Ray, > > >   > > > > >   > > Thanks for all the useful information. I’m especially glad > to > > >   > know that > > >   > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. I’m > > >   > familiar with > > >   > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one boxcar > > kit > > >   > with a wood > > >   > > floor which I wasn’t sure was original. > > >   > > All best. > > >   > > > > >   > > > > >   > > Lou Greiff > > >   > > > > >   > > > > >   > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > >   > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret in > > >   having > > >   > to > > >   > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction of > > >   their > > >   > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did > use > > >   their > > >   > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > > >   > > > > > >   > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in 1926, > > the > > >   > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This catalog > > >   carries > > >   > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and one > > kit > > >   in > > >   > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed and > > >   embossed > > >   > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > > >   > > > > > >   > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and lettered > > >   Reading, > > >   > and > > >   > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > > >   > > > > > >   > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered > > Lehigh > > >   > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > > >   > > > > > >   > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P (Texas & > > >   > Pacific) > > >   > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > > >   > > > > > >   > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same as > > >   above > > >   > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > > >   > > > > > >   > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, > welded > > >   and > > >   > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. > Mantua's > > >   > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, > > reefers, > > >   tank > > >   > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this > > >   period, but > > >   > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry them. > > The > > >   > flat > > >   > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought > out > > >   the 8- > > >   > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came out > > >   then. > > >   > > > > > >   > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and reefers > > >   always > > >   > had > > >   > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only that > > >   changed > > >   > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from > cast > > >   metal > > >   > to > > >   > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic > dummy > > >   > knuckle > > >   > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & loop > > >   > coupler > > >   > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board > sided > > >   cars. > > >   > > > Best, Ray W. > > >   > > > > > >   > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% > > >   > 40yahoogroups.com> , > > >   > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > >   > > >> > > > >   > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started with > a > > >   body > > >   > of > > >   > > > sheet > > >   > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and embossed > > card > > >   > > > overlays > > >   > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one- > piece > > >   > plastic > > >   > > > body with > > >   > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > > >   > > >> > > > >   > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and > > ends, > > >   with > > >   > > > plastic roof > > >   > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame-- > boxcar > > >   and > > >   > reefer > > >   > > > only, > > >   > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They > > also > > >   had a > > >   > > > hook & loop > > >   > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > > >   > > >> > > > >   > > >> > > > >   > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >   > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > > >   > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% > > >   > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > >   > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > > >   > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > > >   > > >> > > > >   > > >> > > > >   > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These were > > >   freight > > >   > car > > >   > > > kits > > >   > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had > metal > > >   sides. > > >   > I have > > >   > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have never > > seen > > >   > them > > >   > > > anywhere > > >   > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very common. > > >   Mantua > > >   > cars > > >   > > > had a > > >   > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the > trucks. > > >   With > > >   > these > > >   > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua > cars > > >   and > > >   > locos > > >   > > > unless > > >   > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today I > > wish > > >   I had > > >   > > > still the > > >   > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits > > anywhere, > > >   > maybe on > > >   > > > ebay?- > > >   > > >>> > > -John > > >   > > >>> > > > > >   > > >>> > > > > >   > > >>> > > > > >   > > >>> > > > > >   > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >   > > >>> > > > > >   > > >>> > > > > >   > > >>> > > > > >   > > >>> > > > > >   > > >> > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > >   > > > >   > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >   > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5040	From: Glen	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

John,     Who ever you get to shovel...  sent him 15 miles west went he's done, it should be letting up by then.  It should also be Miller time.   Glen Waukesha, WI From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:32 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Snow --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > > Ray---it stopped snowing Anyone wanna come over and shovel my snow? I'll have nice fresh, hot coffee for ya. I only charge $0.75 a cup to shovelers. John Hagen St. Francis, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5041	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Ray,     Yes the Mallerich book and our own group members are the best sources of information on Athearn metal in my opinion.  Your email reminds me of a question I have on the subject of “Unusual Athearn” or, more specifically, on unusual Athearn boxes.  I have an Athearn metal ART Refrigerator car in a GRAY box exactly the same size as the all-yellow box.  This box has a red Athearn label on one end with ART Refrigerator printed on it.  Inside the box, the kit components are neatly displayed in a red insert.  I also have a 50’ Southern flatcar in the wider, yellow-sided box with the “snow scene” (B&M Pacific pulling a passenger train) on the box top instead of the familiar ATSF F-7 pulling a streamlined passenger train.  The section of the Mallerich book on Athearn boxes for metal cars does not mention either of these examples.  Both are one-of-a-kind in my collection.  Does anyone else in our group have more information about these boxes and whether other Athearn metal cars were packaged in them?  I’ve only seen my one example of the grey box.  The “snow scence” box is familiar with plastic contents, but I’ve never seen a metal car in one except for my Southern flatcar.     Best wishes, and thanks in advance for whatever input you can provide.                                                                                                                                         Lou On 2/1/08 8:28 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Lou, After reading you post, I feel I should follow up on my same recommendation I made earlier concerning "Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Train" (by Dallas J. Mallerich III).  Now I know why I never bought the "Athearn Standard Guide," and glad I didn't as it would not have been much help to me for what I collect.  I never actually had a chance to check over the "Athearn Standard Guide," but I did know back in 1996 - '97 (a year before this book came out) that the authors, Tim Blaisdell and Ed Urmston were very heavily into Athearn plastic -- nothing wrong with that; I can respect plastic collectors, I just don't avidly collect most it myself.   It was for this reason that I dropped out of that group after a couple of years (I was originally invited to join by Tim), not seeing any Athearn metal mentioned which I had expected.  So, contrary to my earlier recommendation of contacting Tim for info on these metal cars, I guess we can forget about the possibility of his having very much knowledge on them, as it seems to appear.  We did do spread sheets on them, which would help in identifying most of their numbers, but Mallerich's Guide would probably be out the best source for prices even if somewhat outdated.  The prices I put in the book at that time at least reflect the ratio of prices when comparing the rarer road names to the more common kits, indicating to the reader which ones are the more desireable (scarcer) in trying to obtain.  I did try to price them all somewhat with the future in mind, but such inflation over 20 years is impossible to foresee.  I'd say that by multiplying those prices given, by 2 1/2 times, should give a fairly realistic estimate of what the metal cars are worth today.  Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Glen. > >     I too bought the Athearn Standard Guide thinking it would be a good > reference.  As we both now know it is, but not for Athearn metal.   It’s > focused on Athearn plastic.  I’m not aware of an Athearn web site but > perhaps someone else in the vintage HO group is.  There is a separate Yahoo > discussion group on Athearn, but if your interest is in metal rather than > plastic, I believe that this group is a better source of information and > commentary.  A good book to have, by the way, is Greenberg’s Guide to > Athearn Trains by Dallas J. Mallerich.  There’s a very comprehensive section > devoted to Athearn metal in both HO and O gauge.  There’s a separate section > at the back of the book devoted to Globe.  Both sections list road names and > car numbers (reporting marks) for each car produced by these two > manufacturers.  The Greenberg Guide and the Standard Guide both have > sections on Athearn boxes, and these sections discuss and date the various > boxes that the metal cars came in.  Hope this helps. > >                     > Lou >      > > > On 1/31/08 10:49 AM, "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> wrote: > > >   > >   > >   > > > > Lou, > >  Just opened all my boxes of trains that I've been collecting > > since 1964.  I noticed that I have the Seaboard #19264 round roof 40' > > box car in the yellow #6 Athearn box. > >  Is there any Athearn web site I could join to get some answers > > on the rest of my collection?  I did purchase the Standard Guide to > > Athearn Model Trains, but there are some kits I have that are not > > listed in this book. > > > > Thanks in advance,  Glen Thomas > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Don, > >> > > >> >     The Athearn metal single-door round-roof car was made in at > > least four > >> > road names: PRR, Detroit Toledo & Ironton, Seaboard, and N&W, each > > road name > >> > with multiple car numbers.  They all show up for sale from time to > > time at > >> > train meets and elsewhere ranging in condition from mint kit, to > > well-built > >> > finished cars, to junk (for parts).  None is rare to my knowledge. > > I have > >> > examples of all except for the Seaboard. > >> >     Best wishes, and happy New Year. > >> > > >> >                > >> > Lou Greiff > >> > > >> > > >> > On 1/1/08 7:23 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote: > > > >   > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5042	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Lou, Oops yes, slip of the finger there (typo error); I meant 1956 -- actually, this kit (#2714K) came out in 1957; it was an economy kit. Although this same engine, with a plastic long-distance tender this time, came out in 1961 as kit #2950K. It was re-issued factory assembled (with this same plastic tender) in 1966, and also again in kit form (still with the plastic tender) in a low (2") 2- piece cardboard box (as Kit #200) having a blue cover with a photo of the model on top, the same year. Thanks for catching that! Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for the very useful and comprehensive review of the evolution of > Varney steam locomotives. In your last paragraph which dates the lead-tin > Berkshire boiler, did you mean to write 1956 instead of 1966? I ask because > I bought mine while I was in the service, which was between 1960 and 1963. > Best wishes, and thanks again for the information. > > > On 2/1/08 9:43 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello again Bill, Getting back to dating Varney locos by the > > material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the major > > points of the more popular models and also some dates that the > > material for them was introduced, while trying not to write a book > > here. I know some of this information will be repetitious to some of > > the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- and I > > also know due to the many varieties that this won't be exactly short > > either, but here goes something. > > > > Any particular models that I'm leaving out -- and there will > > intentionally be some -- feel free to ask if its of interest to you. > > Of course the easiest way to distinguish pre-War from post-War > > engines is by the motors and frames that were used. As most of us > > know, the pre-War engines all used the V-1 motor, first introduced in > > 1938 as 6 volt, but which was soon modified (either by re- winding, or > > by an aftermarket 6 land armature) to 12 volts (same motor) by 1941. > > On top of that, the pre-War frames were cast zamac with copper leaf > > springs and floating bearing blocks; post-War was either channel > > brass (one-piece) or stamped two-piece brass to be assembled with > > frame rivets. That's the easy and fast part of telling those two > > general eras apart. > > > > Now for the more pertinent stuff, and ways to date the boiler > > material even without having an attached frame. Varney started out > > in 1938 with two cast brass/broze boilers; one Reading type I-10 > > Class consolidation boiler and the other a Southern Pacific type P- > > 13 Class pacific boiler, both used for a wider variety of kits > > including the Consolidation, Pacific, Switcher (0-8-0) and Mikado. > > These were carried into 1941 when the material for the Pacific/Mikado > > boiler was changed to cast lead/zamac. The Reading I-10 boilered > > Consolidation and Switcher were not offered after the War. Also in > > 1938, The Yellowstone kit and the "Shorty" (4-8-4) GG-1 Electric was > > introduced, both with cast aluminum boiler/body. In 1939, the > > Streamlined Pacific kit was introduced, also using a cast > > brass/bronze boiler in addition to the first two boilers. > > > > Now the "tricky" part for some collectors (but the giveaway) -- how > > not to be confused between the cast lead pre-War boiler and the cast > > lead post-War boiler. The pre-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado boiler > > did not have any of the details cast on below the walkways -- this > > included the air tanks, power reverse, air pump, tubing and feed- > > water heater, which the modeler had to install. The post-War cast > > lead Pacific/Mikado boiler had all this detail cast on, except for > > the air pump and feed-water heater. > > > > The post-War Yellowstone boiler (no longer available as a kit) was > > changed to cast brass/bronze. A new cast lead Heavy Consolidation > > and Heavy Switcher boiler came out also, after the War, in 1947. The > > Streamlined Pacific Boiler was now used for the Streamlined Hudson > > kit coming out in 1948. Sure anyone could have changed the trailing > > truck to a 2-axle, but then too, most Varney running gear components > > for the Pacific, Mikado, Berkshire and Hudsons (Standard and > > Streamlined) were interchangeable, and anyone could make a Berkshire > > or Standard Hudson using a cast lead Pacific boiler if they wanted > > to, but we're talking about original here. > > > > The cast brass boilers for the Standard Hudson, Mikado and Berkshire > > came out in 1949. During the Korean War, this Hudson and the > > Bershire were temporarily discontinued and the Mikado was changed to > > a cast lead boiler. After this War, production on these three was > > resumed with the cast brass boilers again. > > > > The distinctive Northern cast brass boiler came out in 1949 as well, > > and the extremely well detailed cast lead-tin Berkshire came out in > > 1966 (having extensive detail cast in). The Casey Jones 10- Wheeler > > came out in 1953, but the Old Lady Consol didn't come out until > > 1957. That about the brief of it most of it; its not really very > > difficult to know about when these engines came out once you > > familiarize yourself with these little features. Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill > > DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney > >> > producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt that this is the > >> > case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran across a piece in > > an > >> > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production > > facilities > >> > of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by > > subcontractors. > >> > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, but > >> > never actually manufactured anything. > >> > > >> > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast Zamac > >> > boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers cast of > >> > lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the > >> > material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the > > three > >> > types. > >> > > >> > I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned > >> > article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's death. > >> > > >> > Bill DeFoe > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , > >> "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when they > >> > were > >>> > > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. > > Hard > >> > to > >>> > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today. I couldn't > >> > quite > >>> > > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > >>> > > familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't look original, > > but > >> > if > >>> > > they operate decently that's one step in the right direction; I > >>> > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use your > >> > cars. > >>> > > Too bad about the box though. As I think of it, they may also > > have > >>> > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I come across mine, > >> > I'll > >>> > > let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>> "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a hobby > >> > shop > >>> > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. Unfortunately the box or > > the > >>> > > trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > > > From: erieberk > >>>> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >>>> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > >>>> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure > > that "MANTUA" > >>> > > was > >>>> > > > cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state > > that, > >>> > > but > >>>> > > > without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want > > to > >>> > > say > >>>> > > > that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was > >>> > > telling > >>>> > > > me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to > > say > >>>> > > > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which > >>> > > someone > >>>> > > > might attempt to stretch. Ray > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > > wrote: > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy > >>> > > Crystals, > >>>> > > > I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is > >> > visible, > >>>> > > > though not as well as I wish. Roger > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > > > > From: Glenn476 > >>>>> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > >>>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney > >>> > > kit, > >>>> > > > #B-79, > >>>>> > > > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot > >> > assembly, > >>>> > > > with a one > >>>>> > > > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This > >>> > > part > >>>> > > > has > >>>>> > > > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the > > doors, > >> > it > >>>> > > > is > >>>>> > > > > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a > >>> > > Santa > >>>> > > > Fe "El > >>>>> > > > > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor > > is > >>> > > wood > >>>> > > > with a > >>>>> > > > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on > >>> > > reading > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic > >>>> > > > hatches. The > >>>>> > > > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be > >>> > > taken > >>>> > > > for a > >>>>> > > > > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can > >> > someone > >>> > > re- > >>>> > > > send it > >>>>> > > > > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic > > molding > >>> > > for > >>>> > > > the name. > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic > >>>> > > > coupler--I don't > >>>>> > > > > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, > >> > and > >>>> > > > was soon > >>>>> > > > > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee > >>> > > dreamed > >>>> > > > up. This > >>>>> > > > > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto > >>> > > standard > >>>> > > > of the > >>>>> > > > > trainset industry. > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary > >> > with > >>>> > > > the plastic > >>>>> > > > > cars. > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > gj > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >>>>> > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > >>>>> > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production > >> > of > >>>> > > > steel > >>>>> > > > > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To > >>> > > verify > >>>>> > > > > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's > >> > Varney > >>>> > > > Guide > >>>>> > > > > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet > > steel > >>>> > > > sides > >>>>> > > > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden > > floor > >>> > > and > >>>>> > > > > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard- > > sided > >>>> > > > Deluxe > >>>>> > > > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > Hi Ray, > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m especially > > glad > >> > to > >>>>> > > > > know that > >>>>>> > > > > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. > > I¹m > >>>>> > > > > familiar with > >>>>>> > > > > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one > > boxcar > >>> > > kit > >>>>> > > > > with a wood > >>>>>> > > > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > >>>>>> > > > > > All best. > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > Lou Greiff > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret > > in > >>>> > > > having > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>> > > > > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction > > of > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>> > > > > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did > >> > use > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>> > > > > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in > > 1926, > >>> > > the > >>>>>>> > > > > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This > > catalog > >>>> > > > carries > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and > > one > >>> > > kit > >>>> > > > in > >>>>>>> > > > > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed > > and > >>>> > > > embossed > >>>>>>> > > > > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and > > lettered > >>>> > > > Reading, > >>>>> > > > > and > >>>>>>> > > > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered > >>> > > Lehigh > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P > > (Texas & > >>>>> > > > > Pacific) > >>>>>>> > > > > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same > > as > >>>> > > > above > >>>>>>> > > > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, > >> > welded > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>> > > > > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. > >> > Mantua's > >>>>>>> > > > > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, > >>> > > reefers, > >>>> > > > tank > >>>>>>> > > > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this > >>>> > > > period, but > >>>>>>> > > > > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry > > them. > >>> > > The > >>>>> > > > > flat > >>>>>>> > > > > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought > >> > out > >>>> > > > the 8- > >>>>>>> > > > > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came > > out > >>>> > > > then. > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and > > reefers > >>>> > > > always > >>>>> > > > > had > >>>>>>> > > > > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only > > that > >>>> > > > changed > >>>>>>> > > > > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from > >> > cast > >>>> > > > metal > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>> > > > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic > >> > dummy > >>>>> > > > > knuckle > >>>>>>> > > > > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & > > loop > >>>>> > > > > coupler > >>>>>>> > > > > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board > >> > sided > >>>> > > > cars. > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Best, Ray W. > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>> > > > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started > > with > >> > a > >>>> > > > body > >>>>> > > > > of > >>>>>>> > > > > > > sheet > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and > > embossed > >>> > > card > >>>>>>> > > > > > > overlays > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one- > >> > piece > >>>>> > > > > plastic > >>>>>>> > > > > > > body with > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and > >>> > > ends, > >>>> > > > with > >>>>>>> > > > > > > plastic roof > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame-- > >> > boxcar > >>>> > > > and > >>>>> > > > > reefer > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only, > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They > >>> > > also > >>>> > > > had a > >>>>>>> > > > > > > hook & loop > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These > > were > >>>> > > > freight > >>>>> > > > > car > >>>>>>> > > > > > > kits > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had > >> > metal > >>>> > > > sides. > >>>>> > > > > I have > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have > > never > >>> > > seen > >>>>> > > > > them > >>>>>>> > > > > > > anywhere > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very > > common. > >>>> > > > Mantua > >>>>> > > > > cars > >>>>>>> > > > > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the > >> > trucks. > >>>> > > > With > >>>>> > > > > these > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua > >> > cars > >>>> > > > and > >>>>> > > > > locos > >>>>>>> > > > > > > unless > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today > I > >>> > > wish > >>>> > > > I had > >>>>>>> > > > > > > still the > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits > >>> > > anywhere, > >>>>> > > > > maybe on > >>>>>>> > > > > > > ebay?- > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > -John > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5043	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

I hate to pass up a bargain. Save me two cupfuls, and a shovel -- I'll be right over (BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA). Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Anyone wanna come over and shovel my snow? I'll have nice fresh, hot > coffee for ya. I only charge $0.75 a cup to shovelers. > > John Hagen > St. Francis, WI >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5044	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Ray,     My Varney Berkshire came with no tender at all with its kit components divided up among four separate boxes, each with the Varney Aerotrain pictured on the box top.  I did buy a tender to go with the locomotive (if I ever build it), an early Mantua metal coal tender with six-wheel trucks and a full-depth coal compartment (which therefore could be modelled nearly empty).                                                                                                                                 Lou On 2/1/08 11:02 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Hi Lou,  Oops yes, slip of the finger there (typo error); I meant 1956 -- actually, this kit (#2714K) came out in 1957; it was an economy kit.  Although this same engine, with a plastic long-distance tender this time, came out in 1961 as kit #2950K.  It was re-issued factory assembled (with this same plastic tender) in 1966, and also again in kit form (still with the plastic tender) in a low (2") 2- piece cardboard box (as Kit #200) having a blue cover with a photo of the model on top, the same year.  Thanks for catching that!  Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > >     Thanks for the very useful and comprehensive review of the evolution of > Varney steam locomotives.  In your last paragraph which dates the lead-tin > Berkshire boiler, did you mean to write 1956 instead of 1966?  I ask because > I bought mine while I was in the service, which was between 1960 and 1963. >     Best wishes, and thanks again for the information. > > > On 2/1/08 9:43 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > >   > >   > >   > > > > Hello again Bill,  Getting back to dating Varney locos by the > > material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the major > > points of the more popular models and also some dates that the > > material for them was introduced, while trying not to write a book > > here.  I know some of this information will be repetitious to some of > > the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- and I > > also know due to the many varieties that this won't be exactly short > > either, but here goes something. > > > > Any particular models that I'm leaving out -- and there will > > intentionally be some -- feel free to ask if its of interest to you. > > Of course the easiest way to distinguish pre-War from post-War > > engines is by the motors and frames that were used.  As most of us > > know, the pre-War engines all used the V-1 motor, first introduced in > > 1938 as 6 volt, but which was soon modified (either by re- winding, or > > by an aftermarket 6 land armature) to 12 volts (same motor) by 1941. > > On top of that, the pre-War frames were cast zamac with copper leaf > > springs and floating bearing blocks; post-War was either channel > > brass (one-piece) or stamped two-piece brass to be assembled  with > > frame rivets.  That's the easy and fast part of telling those two > > general eras apart. > > > > Now for the more pertinent stuff, and ways to date the boiler > > material even without having an attached frame.  Varney started out > > in 1938 with two cast brass/broze boilers; one Reading type I-10 > > Class consolidation boiler and the other  a Southern Pacific type P- > > 13 Class pacific boiler, both used for a wider variety of kits > > including the Consolidation, Pacific, Switcher (0-8-0) and Mikado. > > These were carried into 1941 when the material for the Pacific/Mikado > > boiler was changed to cast lead/zamac.  The Reading I-10 boilered > > Consolidation and Switcher were not offered after the War.  Also in > > 1938, The Yellowstone kit and the "Shorty" (4-8-4) GG-1 Electric was > > introduced, both with cast aluminum boiler/body.  In 1939, the > > Streamlined Pacific kit was introduced, also using a cast > > brass/bronze boiler in addition to the first two boilers. > > > > Now the "tricky" part for some collectors (but the giveaway) -- how > > not to be confused between the cast lead pre-War boiler and the cast > > lead post-War boiler.  The pre-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado boiler > > did not have any of the details cast on below the walkways -- this > > included the air tanks, power reverse, air pump, tubing and feed- > > water heater, which the modeler had to install.  The post-War cast > > lead Pacific/Mikado boiler had all this detail cast on, except for > > the air pump and feed-water heater. > > > > The post-War Yellowstone boiler (no longer available as a kit) was > > changed to cast brass/bronze.   A new cast lead Heavy Consolidation > > and Heavy Switcher boiler came out also, after the War, in 1947.   The > > Streamlined Pacific Boiler was now used for the Streamlined Hudson > > kit coming out in 1948.  Sure anyone could have changed the trailing > > truck to a 2-axle, but then too, most Varney running gear components > > for the Pacific, Mikado, Berkshire and Hudsons (Standard and > > Streamlined) were interchangeable, and anyone could make a Berkshire > > or Standard Hudson using a cast lead Pacific boiler if they wanted > > to, but we're talking about original here. > > > > The cast brass boilers for the Standard Hudson, Mikado and Berkshire > > came out in 1949.  During the Korean War, this Hudson and the > > Bershire were temporarily discontinued and the Mikado was changed to > > a cast lead boiler.  After this War, production on these three was > > resumed with the cast brass boilers again. > > > > The distinctive Northern cast brass boiler came out in 1949 as well, > > and the extremely well detailed cast lead-tin Berkshire came out in > > 1966 (having extensive detail cast in).  The Casey Jones 10- Wheeler > > came out in 1953, but the Old Lady Consol didn't come out until > > 1957.  That about the brief of it most of it; its not really very > > difficult to know about when these engines came out once you > > familiarize yourself with these little features.  Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill > > DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney > >> > producing the sides for the Mantua cars.  I doubt that this is the > >> > case for one reason.  A couple months ago I ran across a piece in > > an > >> > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production > > facilities > >> > of his own.  ALL parts for his kits were produced by > > subcontractors.   > >> > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, but > >> > never actually manufactured anything. > >> > > >> > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast Zamac > >> > boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers cast of > >> > lead.  I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the > >> > material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the > > three > >> > types. > >> > > >> > I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned > >> > article.  I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's death. > >> > > >> > Bill DeFoe > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , > >> "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > Hi Roger,  Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when they > >> > were > >>> > > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. > > Hard > >> > to > >>> > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today.  I couldn't > >> > quite > >>> > > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > >>> > > familiar.  At first glance, those trucks didn't look original, > > but > >> > if > >>> > > they operate decently that's one step in the right direction; I > >>> > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use your > >> > cars.   > >>> > > Too bad about the box though.  As I think of it, they may also > > have > >>> > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes.  When I come across mine, > >> > I'll > >>> > > let you know.  Best,  Ray Wetzel > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>> "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > Hello Ray   I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a hobby > >> > shop > >>> > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone.  Unfortunately the box or > > the > >>> > > trucks were not saved.   Roger Aultman > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > >   ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > > >   From: erieberk > >>>> > > >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >>>> > > >   Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > >>>> > > >   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > >   Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure > > that "MANTUA" > >>> > > was > >>>> > > >   cast into the frame of these cars and was going to state > > that, > >>> > > but > >>>> > > >   without being able to go right to one of them I didn't want > > to > >>> > > say > >>>> > > >   that without being absolutely positive. My memory of it was > >>> > > telling > >>>> > > >   me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will try to > > say > >>>> > > >   these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, which > >>> > > someone > >>>> > > >   might attempt to stretch. Ray > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > >   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > > wrote: > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of Crazy > >>> > > Crystals, > >>>> > > >   I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA is > >> > visible, > >>>> > > >   though not as well as I wish. Roger > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > > >   > From: Glenn476 > >>>>> > > >   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>> > > >   > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > >>>>> > > >   > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a complete Varney > >>> > > kit, > >>>> > > >   #B-79, > >>>>> > > >   > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and slot > >> > assembly, > >>>> > > >   with a one > >>>>> > > >   > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic floor/frame. This > >>> > > part > >>>> > > >   has > >>>>> > > >   > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than the > > doors, > >> > it > >>>> > > >   is > >>>>> > > >   > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other car is a > >>> > > Santa > >>>> > > >   Fe "El > >>>>> > > >   > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but the floor > > is > >>> > > wood > >>>> > > >   with a > >>>>> > > >   > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, but on > >>> > > reading > >>>>> > > >   > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with plastic > >>>> > > >   hatches. The > >>>>> > > >   > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have could be > >>> > > taken > >>>> > > >   for a > >>>>> > > >   > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, can > >> > someone > >>> > > re- > >>>> > > >   send it > >>>>> > > >   > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the plastic > > molding > >>> > > for > >>>> > > >   the name. > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the automatic > >>>> > > >   coupler--I don't > >>>>> > > >   > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in 1954-55, > >> > and > >>>> > > >   was soon > >>>>> > > >   > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler Committee > >>> > > dreamed > >>>> > > >   up. This > >>>>> > > >   > was rejected by the membership, but became the de facto > >>> > > standard > >>>> > > >   of the > >>>>> > > >   > trainset industry. > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > Apparently the three steel cars were offered contemporary > >> > with > >>>> > > >   the plastic > >>>>> > > >   > cars. > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > gj > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > > >   > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >>>>> > > >   > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>> > > >   > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > >>>>> > > >   > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early production > >> > of > >>>> > > >   steel > >>>>> > > >   > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly know. To > >>> > > verify > >>>>> > > >   > this (if you can use this as "verification"), Spanagel's > >> > Varney > >>>> > > >   Guide > >>>>> > > >   > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped sheet > > steel > >>>> > > >   sides > >>>>> > > >   > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a wooden > > floor > >>> > > and > >>>>> > > >   > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the cardboard- > > sided > >>>> > > >   Deluxe > >>>>> > > >   > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>> > > >   > > Hi Ray, > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>> > > >   > > Thanks for all the useful information. I’m especially > > glad > >> > to > >>>>> > > >   > know that > >>>>>> > > >   > > Varney started out with wood floors on their steel cars. > > I’m > >>>>> > > >   > familiar with > >>>>>> > > >   > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and have one > > boxcar > >>> > > kit > >>>>> > > >   > with a wood > >>>>>> > > >   > > floor which I wasn’t sure was original. > >>>>>> > > >   > > All best. > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>> > > >   > > Lou Greiff > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>> > > >   > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, although I regret > > in > >>>> > > >   having > >>>>> > > >   > to > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's construction > > of > >>>> > > >   their > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. Yes, Varney did > >> > use > >>>> > > >   their > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling business in > > 1926, > >>> > > the > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. This > > catalog > >>>> > > >   carries > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > only three freight car models (all factory built) and > > one > >>> > > kit > >>>> > > >   in > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having the printed > > and > >>>> > > >   embossed > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted and > > lettered > >>>> > > >   Reading, > >>>>> > > >   > and > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted and lettered > >>> > > Lehigh > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered T & P > > (Texas & > >>>>> > > >   > Pacific) > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) -- Kit (same > > as > >>>> > > >   above > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel and brass, > >> > welded > >>>> > > >   and > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop coupler. > >> > Mantua's > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their box cars, > >>> > > reefers, > >>>> > > >   tank > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available after this > >>>> > > >   period, but > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 catalogs carry > > them. > >>> > > The > >>>>> > > >   > flat > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they also brought > >> > out > >>>> > > >   the 8- > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars also came > > out > >>>> > > >   then. > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel boxcars and > > reefers > >>>> > > >   always > >>>>> > > >   > had > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the floor only > > that > >>>> > > >   changed > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), and then from > >> > cast > >>>> > > >   metal > >>>>> > > >   > to > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the molded plastic > >> > dummy > >>>>> > > >   > knuckle > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > couplers during the metal car period. Varney's hook & > > loop > >>>>> > > >   > coupler > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > was used pre-War with their embossed Strathmore board > >> > sided > >>>> > > >   cars. > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Best, Ray W. > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>> > > >   > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. Mantua started > > with > >> > a > >>>> > > >   body > >>>>> > > >   > of > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > sheet > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. Printed and > > embossed > >>> > > card > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > overlays > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > finished the car. They eventually changed to a one- > >> > piece > >>>>> > > >   > plastic > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > body with > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed steel sides and > >>> > > ends, > >>>> > > >   with > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > plastic roof > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with cast frame-- > >> > boxcar > >>>> > > >   and > >>>>> > > >   > reefer > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > only, > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over the frame. They > >>> > > also > >>>> > > >   had a > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > hook & loop > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB coupler. > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>> > > >   > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 PM > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the 1950s? These > > were > >>>> > > >   freight > >>>>> > > >   > car > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > kits > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The reefer cars had > >> > metal > >>>> > > >   sides. > >>>>> > > >   > I have > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train shows but have > > never > >>> > > seen > >>>>> > > >   > them > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > anywhere > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits were very > > common. > >>>> > > >   Mantua > >>>>> > > >   > cars > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was attached to the > >> > trucks. > >>>> > > >   With > >>>>> > > >   > these > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only operate Mantua > >> > cars > >>>> > > >   and > >>>>> > > >   > locos > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > unless > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I did. But today > I > >>> > > wish > >>>> > > >   I had > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > still the > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody seen these kits > >>> > > anywhere, > >>>>> > > >   > maybe on > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > ebay?- > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > -John > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>> > > >   > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > >   > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5045	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

John and Glen; Snow Shovelers needed. Coffee's free, at my house. Don L. New Berlin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5046	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

I live in Waukegan, IL, near Lake Michigan and IL-WIS state line. I rent, but had to waddle through about 9 inches of snow to the bus stop this morning. Have the rest of the day to myself to relax (Self empolyment is great!), and am rebuilding some paper and wood coaches, including some Strombecker streamliners. Good day for a hot cup of soup too! Just glad I got some vintage trains to fix up. Now, to put on some Glenn Miller 78 RPMs on the record player, and I'll be set for a while. Someone did say it was Miller time right? -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, DLeistikow@... wrote: > > John and Glen; Snow Shovelers needed. Coffee's free, at my house. > > Don L. New Berlin >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5047	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, DLeistikow@... wrote: > > John and Glen; Snow Shovelers needed. Coffee's free, at my house. > > Don L. New Berlin > SOunds great, love to help. Just as soon as I am shoveled out.... John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5048	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > I live in Waukegan, IL, near Lake Michigan and IL-WIS state line. I > rent, but had to waddle through about 9 inches of snow to the bus stop > this morning. Have the rest of the day to myself to relax (Self > empolyment is great!), and am rebuilding some paper and wood coaches, > including some Strombecker streamliners. Good day for a hot cup of > soup too! Just glad I got some vintage trains to fix up. > > Now, to put on some Glenn Miller 78 RPMs on the record player, and > I'll be set for a while. Someone did say it was Miller time right? > > -Steve > That's my kind pf Miller, Bud. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5049	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

I meant the wooden floor--I am convinced that this car IS a Mantua--the recent clarifications have convinced me that it might best be described as a variant of the later (1950's on) cars--adding the overlay sides to the cars with the plastic body and metal floor/frame casting. As I recall all these had the "Talgo" trucks--initially with the traditional Mantua Coupler, later with the X2f. The Varney frames I was comparing with differ in the spacing of the two crossbearers at the door location (Varney wider than Mantua) and that Varney apparently did not use the all-metal floor/frame casting--this was a plastic molding--while Mantua kept the Zamak frame to the end as far as I can see. I don't recall any Globe cars--but the construction you describe--wood sub-body with stamped metal overlays--was also used by Athearn and All Nation on their O Scale lines.. Story there--During the 80's Jack Burgess was our contest chairman of Coast Division, PCR/NMRA. For a special contest at one meet he decided that it should be limited to "Athearn 40' boxcars." So I rummaged through my O Scale stuff--actually re-kitted one and added the underbody details--he wasn't going to accept it--until one of the HO old timers brought in one of the HO metal cars--we taught him a thing or two about the history in the hobby. 8^) Wish someone would do a book on Mantua like the one on Varney. The first HO cars I had were Mantua in 1947-48. NYC box, MDT reefer, T&P gon, and OT Combine. Then Santa brought a Varney F3. I was building Strombecker models of all types then--my Dad built the Mantuas--If I did a good job he would get real trucks and couplers for them. Anyhow, I think we are on the same page--Right now my Mantua search is focused on finding a tender and some cast parts for the Atlantic. I have the Pacific and Consolidation--both built up with SP-ish details--one with a scratchbuilt Vanderbilt tender. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Glenn, Alright, I'm not disputing that Varney used a combination > wooden floor with a die-cast frame on some of his early metal cars. > This should be a well known fact; I have a number of them myself. I > may have mis-read your earlier post wrong as it appeared to me that > you were saying (1) that Varney used a wood frame (not wood floor), > and (2) that maybe you were trying to tell us that a wood Varney > floor on this Mantua reefer was possibly replaced by a cast floor > (still pressing that this car was really a Varney). I was looking > for you to clarify what you meant by "wood frame," as when I think in > those terms the construction of Globe metal cars comes to my mind > (they have a wood frame over which the metal sides, ends and roof are > installed. I think at this point, you also may have misread my > question, going by your answer (which I wasn't asking), but we'll let > it go at that. Ray W. > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> OK--I think I covered most of this one in a recent post--Varney did > use a >> combination of a wood floor with a die cast metal frame--this may > be the >> reference to the carryover from the pre-war type kits. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:50 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> > "Replaced the Varney wood frame with the cast one"? I guess you >> > mean "floor"? (Varney didn't have a wood or cast frame). Looks > like >> > you're still not convinced, since you're apparently now thinking > this >> > was kit-bashed -- unless I'm reading this wrong! If so, what > does it >> > take for you to acknowledge this is the genuine Mantua article? > If >> > I'm reading this wrong, I'd appreciate some clarity on this. Ray >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the > cast >> > one? I'd >> >> like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the construction of >> > that part >> >> of the car. >> >> >> >> "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks > with >> > the >> >> one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged > flanges. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> >> >> > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, >> > guess I felt >> >> > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides could > of >> > been >> >> > made >> >> > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the > style >> > seems >> >> > similar. Roger >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Glenn476 >> >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM >> >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you > please >> > re-send >> >> > the >> >> > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney >> > reefer I know >> >> > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the >> > floor, but >> >> > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction > what >> > parts are >> >> > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, >> > separate roof. >> >> > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some > of >> > the >> >> > later >> >> > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look > like >> > Kadee-- >> >> > gj >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5050	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

I'm convinced--now I need to find an example of these--did they also do a boxcar like that" ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:32 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer > Can I detect that with Roger's further description of these cars, and > the Mantua MR ad that was supplied, that you're finally accepting > this? We're not trying to snow you, but you're sure a hard sell > (LOL). Glad to see you've seen the light <g>. Have a good one! Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> so basically it's the car type that followed the metal/card overlay >> line--with the litho sheet metal overlay. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5051	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories

I don't have any plans for it--not actively trying to sell it--would rather trade for other issues I need==perhaps you can find someone who needs some of the 1941's, too. I don't know what part of the country you're in--I'm in far northern CA--there is a "Wetzel Way" in Yreka--up in the gold discovery area. A Sigmund Wetzel is listed in the History of Siskiyou County (1881) as one of those who signed the petition to incorporate the county in 1854. There are several other Wetzel's listed. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:36 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories > Glenn, If you don't mind breaking the year up, and don't mind holding > the December 1941 issue for me until I can find you a trade, I'd much > appreciate it. Unless you'd sell it outright, in which case let me > know off-line (< Erieberk@... >). Many thanks, Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> Ray---it stopped snowing--went out and checked the MR duplicates. I > DO have >> the full year 1941--but not 1940 >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:48 PM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5052	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

This is the "2-n" Glenn--my snow needs a tractor to get it all--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: <DLeistikow@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:21 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Snow > John and Glen; Snow Shovelers needed. Coffee's free, at my house. > > Don L. New Berlin > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5053	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Glenn,     The Globe boxcars were also constructed by applying the metal parts around a wooden frame consisting of floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof.  Early Athearn boxcar kits (I’ve heard them referred to as first generation) were similar but not identical to Globe’s.  Athearn then came up with a “second generation” design in which the car was all metal except for a wooden floor that fitted snugly into a metal floor pan.  I have a few Athearn O scale boxcars as you do, and all of mine have the wooden frames.  I don’t know if Athearn ever switched to the all-metal construction for O scale.                                                                                                                                         Lou On 2/1/08 3:29 PM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:     I meant the wooden floor--I am convinced that this car IS a Mantua--the recent clarifications have convinced me that it might best be described as a variant of the later  (1950's on) cars--adding the overlay sides to the cars with the plastic body and metal floor/frame casting.  As I recall all these had the "Talgo" trucks--initially with the traditional Mantua Coupler, later with the X2f.  The Varney frames I was comparing with differ in the spacing of the two crossbearers at the door location (Varney wider than Mantua) and that Varney apparently did not use the all-metal floor/frame casting--this was a plastic molding--while Mantua kept the Zamak frame to the end as far as I can see. I don't recall any Globe cars--but the construction you describe--wood sub-body with stamped metal overlays--was also used by Athearn and All Nation on their  O Scale lines..  Story there--During the 80's Jack Burgess was our contest chairman of Coast Division, PCR/NMRA.  For a special contest at one meet he decided that it should be limited to "Athearn 40' boxcars." So I rummaged through my O Scale stuff--actually re-kitted one and added the underbody details--he wasn't going to accept it--until one of the HO old timers brought in one of the HO metal cars--we taught him a thing or two about the history in the hobby.   8^) Wish someone would do a book on Mantua like the one on Varney.  The first HO cars I had were Mantua in 1947-48.  NYC box, MDT reefer, T&P gon, and OT Combine.  Then Santa brought a Varney F3.  I was building Strombecker models of all types then--my Dad built the Mantuas--If I did a good job he would get real trucks and couplers for them. Anyhow, I think we are on the same page--Right now my Mantua search is focused on finding a tender and some cast parts for the Atlantic.  I have the Pacific and Consolidation--both built up with SP-ish details--one with a scratchbuilt Vanderbilt tender.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@... <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Glenn,  Alright, I'm not disputing that Varney used a combination > wooden floor with a die-cast frame on some of his early metal cars. > This should be a well known fact; I have a number of them myself.  I > may have mis-read your earlier post wrong as it appeared to me that > you were saying (1) that Varney used a wood frame (not wood floor), > and (2) that maybe you were trying to tell us that a wood Varney > floor on this Mantua reefer was possibly replaced by a cast floor > (still pressing that this car was really a Varney).  I was looking > for you to clarify what you meant by "wood frame," as when I think in > those terms the construction of Globe metal cars comes to my mind > (they have a wood frame over which the metal sides, ends and roof are > installed.  I think at this point, you also may have misread my > question, going by your answer (which I wasn't asking), but we'll let > it go at that.  Ray W. > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> OK--I think I covered most of this one in a recent post--Varney did > use a >> combination of a wood floor with a die cast metal frame--this may > be the >> reference to the carryover from the pre-war type kits. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:50 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> > "Replaced the Varney wood frame with the cast one"?  I guess you >> > mean "floor"? (Varney didn't have a wood or cast frame).  Looks > like >> > you're still not convinced, since you're apparently now thinking > this >> > was kit-bashed -- unless I'm reading this wrong!  If so, what > does it >> > take for you to acknowledge this is the genuine Mantua article? > If >> > I'm reading this wrong, I'd appreciate some clarity on this.  Ray >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the > cast >> > one?  I'd >> >> like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the construction of >> > that part >> >> of the car. >> >> >> >> "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks > with >> > the >> >> one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged > flanges. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> >> >> > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, >> > guess I felt >> >> > the originals had too sharp of flanges.  Think the sides could > of >> > been >> >> > made >> >> > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the > style >> > seems >> >> > similar.   Roger >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Glenn476 >> >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM >> >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you > please >> > re-send >> >> > the >> >> > other pix of the car?  Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney >> > reefer I know >> >> > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the >> > floor, but >> >> > they had holes for screws.  How about the body construction > what >> > parts are >> >> > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, >> > separate roof. >> >> > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some > of >> > the >> >> > later >> >> > ones, but have never seen this variety.   Those trucks look > like >> > Kadee-- >> >> > gj >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5054	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

Attachments : John: My eldest Son, showed up and my snow blower was repaired, yesterday. Driveway here is clear now and my Son drank the coffee. Perhaps, next time....... Don L., with TIA........

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5055	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Hi Lou, You're right, Dallas Mallerich's book is a bit sparse on the topic of kit boxes, to say the least. There was a lot of info that I gave him, including the descriptions of every Athearn metal car kit made (I think there were something like 22 different variations, some differences very subtle, yet they were still different). There was a lot other info I gave him that he left out also (including many more reporting numbers), but I presume he just didn't have room, or have the time to include everything. I don't think I have a copy of that manuscript any longer, but I'll take a look. I have every one of the different boxes of course, as I believe I told you, I have around 550 - 575 metal kits of the total 735 or so kits Athearn made (this includes all the different road numbers of all the different road names. Worst case scenario, I could re-write something, but that would be a major undertaking. The B&M box you mentioned is mentioned on the top of page 30. The grey box is not that rare; it was used on a number of reefers. Catch you later, got to run to the P.O. right now. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Yes the Mallerich book and our own group members are the best sources of > information on Athearn metal in my opinion. Your email reminds me of a > question I have on the subject of ³Unusual Athearn² or, more specifically, > on unusual Athearn boxes. I have an Athearn metal ART Refrigerator car in a > GRAY box exactly the same size as the all-yellow box. This box has a red > Athearn label on one end with ART Refrigerator printed on it. Inside the > box, the kit components are neatly displayed in a red insert. I also have a > 50¹ Southern flatcar in the wider, yellow-sided box with the ³snow scene² > (B&M Pacific pulling a passenger train) on the box top instead of the > familiar ATSF F-7 pulling a streamlined passenger train. The section of the > Mallerich book on Athearn boxes for metal cars does not mention either of > these examples. Both are one-of-a-kind in my collection. Does anyone else > in our group have more information about these boxes and whether other > Athearn metal cars were packaged in them? I¹ve only seen my one example of > the grey box. The ³snow scence² box is familiar with plastic contents, but > I¹ve never seen a metal car in one except for my Southern flatcar. > Best wishes, and thanks in advance for whatever input you can provide. > > > Lou > > > On 2/1/08 8:28 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Lou, After reading you post, I feel I should follow up on my same > > recommendation I made earlier concerning "Greenberg's Guide to > > Athearn Train" (by Dallas J. Mallerich III). Now I know why I never > > bought the "Athearn Standard Guide," and glad I didn't as it would > > not have been much help to me for what I collect. I never actually > > had a chance to check over the "Athearn Standard Guide," but I did > > know back in 1996 - '97 (a year before this book came out) that the > > authors, Tim Blaisdell and Ed Urmston were very heavily into Athearn > > plastic -- nothing wrong with that; I can respect plastic collectors, > > I just don't avidly collect most it myself. > > > > It was for this reason that I dropped out of that group after a > > couple of years (I was originally invited to join by Tim), not seeing > > any Athearn metal mentioned which I had expected. So, contrary to my > > earlier recommendation of contacting Tim for info on these metal > > cars, I guess we can forget about the possibility of his having very > > much knowledge on them, as it seems to appear. We did do spread > > sheets on them, which would help in identifying most of their > > numbers, but Mallerich's Guide would probably be out the best source > > for prices even if somewhat outdated. The prices I put in the book > > at that time at least reflect the ratio of prices when comparing the > > rarer road names to the more common kits, indicating to the reader > > which ones are the more desireable (scarcer) in trying to obtain. I > > did try to price them all somewhat with the future in mind, but such > > inflation over 20 years is impossible to foresee. I'd say that by > > multiplying those prices given, by 2 1/2 times, should give a fairly > > realistic estimate of what the metal cars are worth today. Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Glen. > >> > > >> > I too bought the Athearn Standard Guide thinking it would be a > > good > >> > reference. As we both now know it is, but not for Athearn metal. > > It¹s > >> > focused on Athearn plastic. I¹m not aware of an Athearn web site > > but > >> > perhaps someone else in the vintage HO group is. There is a > > separate Yahoo > >> > discussion group on Athearn, but if your interest is in metal > > rather than > >> > plastic, I believe that this group is a better source of > > information and > >> > commentary. A good book to have, by the way, is Greenberg¹s Guide > > to > >> > Athearn Trains by Dallas J. Mallerich. There¹s a very > > comprehensive section > >> > devoted to Athearn metal in both HO and O gauge. There¹s a > > separate section > >> > at the back of the book devoted to Globe. Both sections list road > > names and > >> > car numbers (reporting marks) for each car produced by these two > >> > manufacturers. The Greenberg Guide and the Standard Guide both have > >> > sections on Athearn boxes, and these sections discuss and date the > > various > >> > boxes that the metal cars came in. Hope this helps. > >> > > >> > > >> > Lou > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 1/31/08 10:49 AM, "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@> wrote: > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Lou, > >>> > > Just opened all my boxes of trains that I've been collecting > >>> > > since 1964. I noticed that I have the Seaboard #19264 round roof > > 40' > >>> > > box car in the yellow #6 Athearn box. > >>> > > Is there any Athearn web site I could join to get some answers > >>> > > on the rest of my collection? I did purchase the Standard Guide > > to > >>> > > Athearn Model Trains, but there are some kits I have that are not > >>> > > listed in this book. > >>> > > > >>> > > Thanks in advance, Glen Thomas > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >>> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > >>> > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Hi Don, > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > The Athearn metal single-door round-roof car was made in at > >>> > > least four > >>>>> > >> > road names: PRR, Detroit Toledo & Ironton, Seaboard, and N&W, > > each > >>> > > road name > >>>>> > >> > with multiple car numbers. They all show up for sale from > > time to > >>> > > time at > >>>>> > >> > train meets and elsewhere ranging in condition from mint kit, > > to > >>> > > well-built > >>>>> > >> > finished cars, to junk (for parts). None is rare to my > > knowledge. > >>> > > I have > >>>>> > >> > examples of all except for the Seaboard. > >>>>> > >> > Best wishes, and happy New Year. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Lou Greiff > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > On 1/1/08 7:23 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5056	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hey Lou, Many of the Varney locomotive kits came just as you describe. You then had to buy the tender of your choice in addition to this kit. I too have this same kit in my collection, it was sold from 1957 to 1960 @ $47.50 (less tender). The four boxes include; Section 1 & 2 (Mechanism with Motor), Section 3 & 4 (Engine Trucks and Cylinder Assembly), Section 5 & 7 (Valve Gear and Body Fittings) and Section 6 (Boiler with Weight). These types of kits were all boxed pretty much the same with 4 cardboard boxes inside of a corregated box. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > My Varney Berkshire came with no tender at all with its kit components > divided up among four separate boxes, each with the Varney Aerotrain > pictured on the box top. I did buy a tender to go with the locomotive (if I > ever build it), an early Mantua metal coal tender with six-wheel trucks and > a full-depth coal compartment (which therefore could be modelled nearly > empty). > > > Lou > > > On 2/1/08 11:02 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Lou, Oops yes, slip of the finger there (typo error); I meant > > 1956 -- actually, this kit (#2714K) came out in 1957; it was an > > economy kit. Although this same engine, with a plastic long- distance > > tender this time, came out in 1961 as kit #2950K. It was re- issued > > factory assembled (with this same plastic tender) in 1966, and also > > again in kit form (still with the plastic tender) in a low (2") 2- > > piece cardboard box (as Kit #200) having a blue cover with a photo of > > the model on top, the same year. Thanks for catching that! Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Ray, > >> > > >> > Thanks for the very useful and comprehensive review of the > > evolution of > >> > Varney steam locomotives. In your last paragraph which dates the > > lead-tin > >> > Berkshire boiler, did you mean to write 1956 instead of 1966? I > > ask because > >> > I bought mine while I was in the service, which was between 1960 > > and 1963. > >> > Best wishes, and thanks again for the information. > >> > > >> > > >> > On 2/1/08 9:43 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Hello again Bill, Getting back to dating Varney locos by the > >>> > > material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the major > >>> > > points of the more popular models and also some dates that the > >>> > > material for them was introduced, while trying not to write a book > >>> > > here. I know some of this information will be repetitious to > > some of > >>> > > the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- and I > >>> > > also know due to the many varieties that this won't be exactly > > short > >>> > > either, but here goes something. > >>> > > > >>> > > Any particular models that I'm leaving out -- and there will > >>> > > intentionally be some -- feel free to ask if its of interest to > > you. > >>> > > Of course the easiest way to distinguish pre-War from post- War > >>> > > engines is by the motors and frames that were used. As most of us > >>> > > know, the pre-War engines all used the V-1 motor, first > > introduced in > >>> > > 1938 as 6 volt, but which was soon modified (either by re- > > winding, or > >>> > > by an aftermarket 6 land armature) to 12 volts (same motor) by > > 1941. > >>> > > On top of that, the pre-War frames were cast zamac with copper > > leaf > >>> > > springs and floating bearing blocks; post-War was either channel > >>> > > brass (one-piece) or stamped two-piece brass to be assembled with > >>> > > frame rivets. That's the easy and fast part of telling those two > >>> > > general eras apart. > >>> > > > >>> > > Now for the more pertinent stuff, and ways to date the boiler > >>> > > material even without having an attached frame. Varney started > > out > >>> > > in 1938 with two cast brass/broze boilers; one Reading type I-10 > >>> > > Class consolidation boiler and the other a Southern Pacific type > > P- > >>> > > 13 Class pacific boiler, both used for a wider variety of kits > >>> > > including the Consolidation, Pacific, Switcher (0-8-0) and Mikado. > >>> > > These were carried into 1941 when the material for the > > Pacific/Mikado > >>> > > boiler was changed to cast lead/zamac. The Reading I-10 boilered > >>> > > Consolidation and Switcher were not offered after the War. Also > > in > >>> > > 1938, The Yellowstone kit and the "Shorty" (4-8-4) GG-1 Electric > > was > >>> > > introduced, both with cast aluminum boiler/body. In 1939, the > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific kit was introduced, also using a cast > >>> > > brass/bronze boiler in addition to the first two boilers. > >>> > > > >>> > > Now the "tricky" part for some collectors (but the giveaway) -- > > how > >>> > > not to be confused between the cast lead pre-War boiler and the > > cast > >>> > > lead post-War boiler. The pre-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado boiler > >>> > > did not have any of the details cast on below the walkways - - this > >>> > > included the air tanks, power reverse, air pump, tubing and feed- > >>> > > water heater, which the modeler had to install. The post- War cast > >>> > > lead Pacific/Mikado boiler had all this detail cast on, except for > >>> > > the air pump and feed-water heater. > >>> > > > >>> > > The post-War Yellowstone boiler (no longer available as a kit) was > >>> > > changed to cast brass/bronze. A new cast lead Heavy > > Consolidation > >>> > > and Heavy Switcher boiler came out also, after the War, in 1947. > > The > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific Boiler was now used for the Streamlined Hudson > >>> > > kit coming out in 1948. Sure anyone could have changed the > > trailing > >>> > > truck to a 2-axle, but then too, most Varney running gear > > components > >>> > > for the Pacific, Mikado, Berkshire and Hudsons (Standard and > >>> > > Streamlined) were interchangeable, and anyone could make a > > Berkshire > >>> > > or Standard Hudson using a cast lead Pacific boiler if they wanted > >>> > > to, but we're talking about original here. > >>> > > > >>> > > The cast brass boilers for the Standard Hudson, Mikado and > > Berkshire > >>> > > came out in 1949. During the Korean War, this Hudson and the > >>> > > Bershire were temporarily discontinued and the Mikado was changed > > to > >>> > > a cast lead boiler. After this War, production on these three was > >>> > > resumed with the cast brass boilers again. > >>> > > > >>> > > The distinctive Northern cast brass boiler came out in 1949 as > > well, > >>> > > and the extremely well detailed cast lead-tin Berkshire came out > > in > >>> > > 1966 (having extensive detail cast in). The Casey Jones 10- > > Wheeler > >>> > > came out in 1953, but the Old Lady Consol didn't come out until > >>> > > 1957. That about the brief of it most of it; its not really very > >>> > > difficult to know about when these engines came out once you > >>> > > familiarize yourself with these little features. Ray Wetzel > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >>> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill > >>> > > DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Hi all, > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney > >>>>> > >> > producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt that this is > > the > >>>>> > >> > case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran across a piece > > in > >>> > > an > >>>>> > >> > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production > >>> > > facilities > >>>>> > >> > of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by > >>> > > subcontractors. > >>>>> > >> > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, > > but > >>>>> > >> > never actually manufactured anything. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast > > Zamac > >>>>> > >> > boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers > > cast of > >>>>> > >> > lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the > >>>>> > >> > material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the > >>> > > three > >>>>> > >> > types. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned > >>>>> > >> > article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's > > death. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Bill DeFoe > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>> > >> "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when > > they > >>>>> > >> > were > >>>>>>> > >>> > > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. > >>> > > Hard > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today. I > > couldn't > >>>>> > >> > quite > >>>>>>> > >>> > > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > >>>>>>> > >>> > > familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't look > > original, > >>> > > but > >>>>> > >> > if > >>>>>>> > >>> > > they operate decently that's one step in the right > > direction; I > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use > > your > >>>>> > >> > cars. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Too bad about the box though. As I think of it, they may > > also > >>> > > have > >>>>>>> > >>> > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I come across > > mine, > >>>>> > >> > I'll > >>>>>>> > >>> > > let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>> > >>> "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a > > hobby > >>>>> > >> > shop > >>>>>>> > >>> > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. Unfortunately the > > box or > >>> > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > From: erieberk > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure > >>> > > that "MANTUA" > >>>>>>> > >>> > > was > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > cast into the frame of these cars and was going to > > state > >>> > > that, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > but > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > without being able to go right to one of them I didn't > > want > >>> > > to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > that without being absolutely positive. My memory of > > it was > >>>>>>> > >>> > > telling > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will > > try to > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, > > which > >>>>>>> > >>> > > someone > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > might attempt to stretch. Ray > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>> > >>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of > > Crazy > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Crystals, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA > > is > >>>>> > >> > visible, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > though not as well as I wish. Roger > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > From: Glenn476 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a > > complete Varney > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > #B-79, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and > > slot > >>>>> > >> > assembly, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with a one > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic > > floor/frame. This > >>>>>>> > >>> > > part > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > has > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than > > the > >>> > > doors, > >>>>> > >> > it > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > is > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other > > car is a > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Santa > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Fe "El > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but > the > > floor > >>> > > is > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wood > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with a > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, > > but on > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reading > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with > > plastic > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > hatches. The > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have > > could be > >>>>>>> > >>> > > taken > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > for a > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, > > can > >>>>> > >> > someone > >>>>>>> > >>> > > re- > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > send it > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the > > plastic > >>> > > molding > >>>>>>> > >>> > > for > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the name. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the > > automatic > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > coupler--I don't > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in > > 1954-55, > >>>>> > >> > and > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > was soon > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler > > Committee > >>>>>>> > >>> > > dreamed > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > up. This > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > was rejected by the membership, but became the de > > facto > >>>>>>> > >>> > > standard > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > of the > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > trainset industry. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered > > contemporary > >>>>> > >> > with > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the plastic > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > gj > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early > > production > >>>>> > >> > of > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > steel > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly > > know. To > >>>>>>> > >>> > > verify > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > this (if you can use this as "verification"), > > Spanagel's > >>>>> > >> > Varney > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Guide > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped > > sheet > >>> > > steel > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > sides > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a > > wooden > >>> > > floor > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the > > cardboard- > >>> > > sided > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Deluxe > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff > > <louie113@> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Hi Ray, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m > > especially > >>> > > glad > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > know that > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Varney started out with wood floors on their > > steel cars. > >>> > > I¹m > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > familiar with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and > have > > one > >>> > > boxcar > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > with a wood > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > All best. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Lou Greiff > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, > although > > I regret > >>> > > in > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > having > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's > > construction > >>> > > of > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. > Yes, > > Varney did > >>>>> > >> > use > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling > > business in > >>> > > 1926, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. > > This > >>> > > catalog > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > carries > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only three freight car models (all factory > > built) and > >>> > > one > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > in > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having > the > > printed > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > embossed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted > > and > >>> > > lettered > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Reading, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted > > and lettered > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Lehigh > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered > T > > & P > >>> > > (Texas & > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Pacific) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) > -- > > Kit (same > >>> > > as > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > above > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel > and > > brass, > >>>>> > >> > welded > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop > > coupler. > >>>>> > >> > Mantua's > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their > > box cars, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reefers, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > tank > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available > > after this > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > period, but > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 > catalogs > > carry > >>> > > them. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > flat > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they > > also brought > >>>>> > >> > out > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the 8- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars > > also came > >>> > > out > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > then. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel > boxcars > > and > >>> > > reefers > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > always > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the > > floor only > >>> > > that > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > changed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), > and > > then from > >>>>> > >> > cast > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > metal > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the > > molded plastic > >>>>> > >> > dummy > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > knuckle > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > couplers during the metal car period. > > Varney's hook & > >>> > > loop > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > coupler > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > was used pre-War with their embossed > > Strathmore board > >>>>> > >> > sided > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Best, Ray W. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. > > Mantua started > >>> > > with > >>>>> > >> > a > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > body > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > of > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > sheet > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. > > Printed and > >>> > > embossed > >>>>>>> > >>> > > card > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > overlays > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > finished the car. They eventually > > changed to a one- > >>>>> > >> > piece > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > plastic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > body with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed > > steel sides and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > ends, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > plastic roof > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with > > cast frame-- > >>>>> > >> > boxcar > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > reefer > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over > the > > frame. They > >>>>>>> > >>> > > also > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > hook & loop > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB > > coupler. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message --- -- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 > PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the > > 1950s? These > >>> > > were > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > freight > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > car > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > kits > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The > > reefer cars had > >>>>> > >> > metal > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > sides. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > I have > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train > > shows but have > >>> > > never > >>>>>>> > >>> > > seen > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > them > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > anywhere > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits > > were very > >>> > > common. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Mantua > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was > > attached to the > >>>>> > >> > trucks. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > With > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > these > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only > > operate Mantua > >>>>> > >> > cars > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > locos > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > unless > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I > > did. But today > >> > I > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wish > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > I had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > still the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody > seen > > these kits > >>>>>>> > >>> > > anywhere, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > maybe on > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > ebay?- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > -John > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5057	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

Your welcome Ray, it is enjoyable digging through the old magazines for information. It is surprissing how some times things are not as they are remembered. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 6:47 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer Roger, That's a fairly good description in your mention of the smooth side areas of the plastic body (with slots) that the metal sides lay up against (plus the fact that its a one-piece plastic body -- I thought that was brought out before(?). Actually, your earlier photo of the car appeared to show the metal side snuggled up against the plastic body, but maybe it wasn't that obvious to someone unfamiliar with it, although it was brought out that the metal side panels had tabs. It certainly showed that the metal sides weren't one-piece side/end "L" shaped panels. Thanks for this post and for digging out that MR issue -- it saved me a lot of work digging into my MR's. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5058	From: erieberk	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Okay, I got ya now, on the Varney wood floor. These Mantua cars we all just talked about make a pretty decent addition to a vintage equipment layout -- they were nicely engineered. Yes, I agree with you 100%, the hobby needs a Mantua book -- BADLY. Something like that would sure come in handy. How well I remember building those StromBecker cars you mentioned. For a kid just learning to put these kits together, and just getting into H0, they were great fun to assemble. I remember that old dry (casein?) glue they included in the box that you mixed with water; held pretty good. When done carefully, they were half-way decent enough to operate on a layout. I know what you mean, about the Varney cast metal underframe (that attached to the wooden floor). BTW, Varney did use a cast metal floor (in 1952) between the time of their wood floor (in 1949) and the time if their plastic floor (in 1954). Interesting story about that 0 Scale contest. I've seen those Athearn 0 Scale metal car kits, but never really gave them a good look. Didn't know how they were constructed. They do look nice though. Almost makes ya want to switch scales (if you had the room) - - I said ALMOST! Finding a matching Mantua tender for the Atlantic may not be easy, unless you're going to settle for something similar. Varney had a short one that would probably work nicely if you could find it. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I meant the wooden floor--I am convinced that this car IS a Mantua-- the > recent clarifications have convinced me that it might best be described as > a variant of the later (1950's on) cars--adding the overlay sides to the > cars with the plastic body and metal floor/frame casting. As I recall all > these had the "Talgo" trucks--initially with the traditional Mantua Coupler, > later with the X2f. The Varney frames I was comparing with differ in the > spacing of the two crossbearers at the door location (Varney wider than > Mantua) and that Varney apparently did not use the all-metal floor/frame > casting--this was a plastic molding--while Mantua kept the Zamak frame to > the end as far as I can see. > > I don't recall any Globe cars--but the construction you describe-- wood > sub-body with stamped metal overlays--was also used by Athearn and All > Nation on their O Scale lines.. Story there--During the 80's Jack Burgess > was our contest chairman of Coast Division, PCR/NMRA. For a special contest > at one meet he decided that it should be limited to "Athearn 40' boxcars." > So I rummaged through my O Scale stuff--actually re-kitted one and added the > underbody details--he wasn't going to accept it--until one of the HO old > timers brought in one of the HO metal cars--we taught him a thing or two > about the history in the hobby. 8^) > > Wish someone would do a book on Mantua like the one on Varney. The first HO > cars I had were Mantua in 1947-48. NYC box, MDT reefer, T&P gon, and OT > Combine. Then Santa brought a Varney F3. I was building Strombecker models > of all types then--my Dad built the Mantuas--If I did a good job he would > get real trucks and couplers for them. > > Anyhow, I think we are on the same page--Right now my Mantua search is > focused on finding a tender and some cast parts for the Atlantic. I have > the Pacific and Consolidation--both built up with SP-ish details-- one with a > scratchbuilt Vanderbilt tender. gj > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:01 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Glenn, Alright, I'm not disputing that Varney used a combination > > wooden floor with a die-cast frame on some of his early metal cars. > > This should be a well known fact; I have a number of them myself. I > > may have mis-read your earlier post wrong as it appeared to me that > > you were saying (1) that Varney used a wood frame (not wood floor), > > and (2) that maybe you were trying to tell us that a wood Varney > > floor on this Mantua reefer was possibly replaced by a cast floor > > (still pressing that this car was really a Varney). I was looking > > for you to clarify what you meant by "wood frame," as when I think in > > those terms the construction of Globe metal cars comes to my mind > > (they have a wood frame over which the metal sides, ends and roof are > > installed. I think at this point, you also may have misread my > > question, going by your answer (which I wasn't asking), but we'll let > > it go at that. Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> OK--I think I covered most of this one in a recent post--Varney did > > use a > >> combination of a wood floor with a die cast metal frame--this may > > be the > >> reference to the carryover from the pre-war type kits. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:50 AM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> > "Replaced the Varney wood frame with the cast one"? I guess you > >> > mean "floor"? (Varney didn't have a wood or cast frame). Looks > > like > >> > you're still not convinced, since you're apparently now thinking > > this > >> > was kit-bashed -- unless I'm reading this wrong! If so, what > > does it > >> > take for you to acknowledge this is the genuine Mantua article? > > If > >> > I'm reading this wrong, I'd appreciate some clarity on this. Ray > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the > > cast > >> > one? I'd > >> >> like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the construction of > >> > that part > >> >> of the car. > >> >> > >> >> "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks > > with > >> > the > >> >> one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged > > flanges. > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, > >> > guess I felt > >> >> > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides could > > of > >> > been > >> >> > made > >> >> > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the > > style > >> > seems > >> >> > similar. Roger > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> > From: Glenn476 > >> >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM > >> >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you > > please > >> > re-send > >> >> > the > >> >> > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney > >> > reefer I know > >> >> > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over the > >> > floor, but > >> >> > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction > > what > >> > parts are > >> >> > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, > >> > separate roof. > >> >> > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and some > > of > >> > the > >> >> > later > >> >> > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look > > like > >> > Kadee-- > >> >> > gj > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5059	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Ray, All I can say is WOW! That is a wealth of information. I will have to copy it and study it at length. Thank you very much. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hello again Bill, Getting back to dating Varney locos by the > material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the major > points of the more popular models and also some dates that the > material for them was introduced, while trying not to write a book > here. I know some of this information will be repetitious to some of > the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- and I > also know due to the many varieties that this won't be exactly short > either, but here goes something. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5060	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Speaking of Athearn Metal--did anyone on the list get that set of castings for the die-cast 200-ton crane? I posted it to the list when I spotted it gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 1:33 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5061	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

At one time many locomotive kits came that way--called something like ":Build as you Buy" or "Buy as you Build"--anyhow you bought a section and built it as you scraped the $$ together to buy the next. More common in O Scale. ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Hey Lou, Many of the Varney locomotive kits came just as you describe. You then had to buy the tender of your choice in addition to this kit. I too have this same kit in my collection, it was sold from 1957 to 1960 @ $47.50 (less tender). The four boxes include; Section 1 & 2 (Mechanism with Motor), Section 3 & 4 (Engine Trucks and Cylinder Assembly), Section 5 & 7 (Valve Gear and Body Fittings) and Section 6 (Boiler with Weight). These types of kits were all boxed pretty much the same with 4 cardboard boxes inside of a corregated box. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > My Varney Berkshire came with no tender at all with its kit components > divided up among four separate boxes, each with the Varney Aerotrain > pictured on the box top. I did buy a tender to go with the locomotive (if I > ever build it), an early Mantua metal coal tender with six-wheel trucks and > a full-depth coal compartment (which therefore could be modelled nearly > empty). > > > Lou > > > On 2/1/08 11:02 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Lou, Oops yes, slip of the finger there (typo error); I meant > > 1956 -- actually, this kit (#2714K) came out in 1957; it was an > > economy kit. Although this same engine, with a plastic long- distance > > tender this time, came out in 1961 as kit #2950K. It was re- issued > > factory assembled (with this same plastic tender) in 1966, and also > > again in kit form (still with the plastic tender) in a low (2") 2- > > piece cardboard box (as Kit #200) having a blue cover with a photo of > > the model on top, the same year. Thanks for catching that! Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Ray, > >> > > >> > Thanks for the very useful and comprehensive review of the > > evolution of > >> > Varney steam locomotives. In your last paragraph which dates the > > lead-tin > >> > Berkshire boiler, did you mean to write 1956 instead of 1966? I > > ask because > >> > I bought mine while I was in the service, which was between 1960 > > and 1963. > >> > Best wishes, and thanks again for the information. > >> > > >> > > >> > On 2/1/08 9:43 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Hello again Bill, Getting back to dating Varney locos by the > >>> > > material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the major > >>> > > points of the more popular models and also some dates that the > >>> > > material for them was introduced, while trying not to write a book > >>> > > here. I know some of this information will be repetitious to > > some of > >>> > > the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- and I > >>> > > also know due to the many varieties that this won't be exactly > > short > >>> > > either, but here goes something. > >>> > > > >>> > > Any particular models that I'm leaving out -- and there will > >>> > > intentionally be some -- feel free to ask if its of interest to > > you. > >>> > > Of course the easiest way to distinguish pre-War from post- War > >>> > > engines is by the motors and frames that were used. As most of us > >>> > > know, the pre-War engines all used the V-1 motor, first > > introduced in > >>> > > 1938 as 6 volt, but which was soon modified (either by re- > > winding, or > >>> > > by an aftermarket 6 land armature) to 12 volts (same motor) by > > 1941. > >>> > > On top of that, the pre-War frames were cast zamac with copper > > leaf > >>> > > springs and floating bearing blocks; post-War was either channel > >>> > > brass (one-piece) or stamped two-piece brass to be assembled with > >>> > > frame rivets. That's the easy and fast part of telling those two > >>> > > general eras apart. > >>> > > > >>> > > Now for the more pertinent stuff, and ways to date the boiler > >>> > > material even without having an attached frame. Varney started > > out > >>> > > in 1938 with two cast brass/broze boilers; one Reading type I-10 > >>> > > Class consolidation boiler and the other a Southern Pacific type > > P- > >>> > > 13 Class pacific boiler, both used for a wider variety of kits > >>> > > including the Consolidation, Pacific, Switcher (0-8-0) and Mikado. > >>> > > These were carried into 1941 when the material for the > > Pacific/Mikado > >>> > > boiler was changed to cast lead/zamac. The Reading I-10 boilered > >>> > > Consolidation and Switcher were not offered after the War. Also > > in > >>> > > 1938, The Yellowstone kit and the "Shorty" (4-8-4) GG-1 Electric > > was > >>> > > introduced, both with cast aluminum boiler/body. In 1939, the > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific kit was introduced, also using a cast > >>> > > brass/bronze boiler in addition to the first two boilers. > >>> > > > >>> > > Now the "tricky" part for some collectors (but the giveaway) -- > > how > >>> > > not to be confused between the cast lead pre-War boiler and the > > cast > >>> > > lead post-War boiler. The pre-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado boiler > >>> > > did not have any of the details cast on below the walkways - - this > >>> > > included the air tanks, power reverse, air pump, tubing and feed- > >>> > > water heater, which the modeler had to install. The post- War cast > >>> > > lead Pacific/Mikado boiler had all this detail cast on, except for > >>> > > the air pump and feed-water heater. > >>> > > > >>> > > The post-War Yellowstone boiler (no longer available as a kit) was > >>> > > changed to cast brass/bronze. A new cast lead Heavy > > Consolidation > >>> > > and Heavy Switcher boiler came out also, after the War, in 1947. > > The > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific Boiler was now used for the Streamlined Hudson > >>> > > kit coming out in 1948. Sure anyone could have changed the > > trailing > >>> > > truck to a 2-axle, but then too, most Varney running gear > > components > >>> > > for the Pacific, Mikado, Berkshire and Hudsons (Standard and > >>> > > Streamlined) were interchangeable, and anyone could make a > > Berkshire > >>> > > or Standard Hudson using a cast lead Pacific boiler if they wanted > >>> > > to, but we're talking about original here. > >>> > > > >>> > > The cast brass boilers for the Standard Hudson, Mikado and > > Berkshire > >>> > > came out in 1949. During the Korean War, this Hudson and the > >>> > > Bershire were temporarily discontinued and the Mikado was changed > > to > >>> > > a cast lead boiler. After this War, production on these three was > >>> > > resumed with the cast brass boilers again. > >>> > > > >>> > > The distinctive Northern cast brass boiler came out in 1949 as > > well, > >>> > > and the extremely well detailed cast lead-tin Berkshire came out > > in > >>> > > 1966 (having extensive detail cast in). The Casey Jones 10- > > Wheeler > >>> > > came out in 1953, but the Old Lady Consol didn't come out until > >>> > > 1957. That about the brief of it most of it; its not really very > >>> > > difficult to know about when these engines came out once you > >>> > > familiarize yourself with these little features. Ray Wetzel > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >>> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill > >>> > > DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Hi all, > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney > >>>>> > >> > producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt that this is > > the > >>>>> > >> > case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran across a piece > > in > >>> > > an > >>>>> > >> > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production > >>> > > facilities > >>>>> > >> > of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by > >>> > > subcontractors. > >>>>> > >> > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, > > but > >>>>> > >> > never actually manufactured anything. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast > > Zamac > >>>>> > >> > boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers > > cast of > >>>>> > >> > lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the > >>>>> > >> > material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the > >>> > > three > >>>>> > >> > types. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned > >>>>> > >> > article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's > > death. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Bill DeFoe > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>> > >> "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when > > they > >>>>> > >> > were > >>>>>>> > >>> > > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. > >>> > > Hard > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today. I > > couldn't > >>>>> > >> > quite > >>>>>>> > >>> > > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > >>>>>>> > >>> > > familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't look > > original, > >>> > > but > >>>>> > >> > if > >>>>>>> > >>> > > they operate decently that's one step in the right > > direction; I > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use > > your > >>>>> > >> > cars. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Too bad about the box though. As I think of it, they may > > also > >>> > > have > >>>>>>> > >>> > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I come across > > mine, > >>>>> > >> > I'll > >>>>>>> > >>> > > let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>> > >>> "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a > > hobby > >>>>> > >> > shop > >>>>>>> > >>> > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. Unfortunately the > > box or > >>> > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > From: erieberk > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure > >>> > > that "MANTUA" > >>>>>>> > >>> > > was > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > cast into the frame of these cars and was going to > > state > >>> > > that, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > but > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > without being able to go right to one of them I didn't > > want > >>> > > to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > that without being absolutely positive. My memory of > > it was > >>>>>>> > >>> > > telling > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will > > try to > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, > > which > >>>>>>> > >>> > > someone > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > might attempt to stretch. Ray > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>> > >>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of > > Crazy > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Crystals, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA > > is > >>>>> > >> > visible, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > though not as well as I wish. Roger > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > From: Glenn476 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a > > complete Varney > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > #B-79, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and > > slot > >>>>> > >> > assembly, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with a one > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic > > floor/frame. This > >>>>>>> > >>> > > part > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > has > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than > > the > >>> > > doors, > >>>>> > >> > it > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > is > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other > > car is a > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Santa > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Fe "El > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but > the > > floor > >>> > > is > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wood > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with a > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, > > but on > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reading > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with > > plastic > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > hatches. The > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have > > could be > >>>>>>> > >>> > > taken > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > for a > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, > > can > >>>>> > >> > someone > >>>>>>> > >>> > > re- > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > send it > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the > > plastic > >>> > > molding > >>>>>>> > >>> > > for > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the name. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the > > automatic > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > coupler--I don't > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in > > 1954-55, > >>>>> > >> > and > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > was soon > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler > > Committee > >>>>>>> > >>> > > dreamed > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > up. This > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > was rejected by the membership, but became the de > > facto > >>>>>>> > >>> > > standard > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > of the > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > trainset industry. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Apparently the three steel cars were offered > > contemporary > >>>>> > >> > with > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the plastic > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > gj > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early > > production > >>>>> > >> > of > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > steel > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly > > know. To > >>>>>>> > >>> > > verify > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > this (if you can use this as "verification"), > > Spanagel's > >>>>> > >> > Varney > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Guide > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped > > sheet > >>> > > steel > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > sides > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a > > wooden > >>> > > floor > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the > > cardboard- > >>> > > sided > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Deluxe > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff > > <louie113@> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Hi Ray, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Thanks for all the useful information. I¹m > > especially > >>> > > glad > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > know that > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Varney started out with wood floors on their > > steel cars. > >>> > > I¹m > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > familiar with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and > have > > one > >>> > > boxcar > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > with a wood > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was original. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > All best. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Lou Greiff > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, > although > > I regret > >>> > > in > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > having > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's > > construction > >>> > > of > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. > Yes, > > Varney did > >>>>> > >> > use > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling > > business in > >>> > > 1926, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. > > This > >>> > > catalog > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > carries > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only three freight car models (all factory > > built) and > >>> > > one > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > in > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having > the > > printed > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > embossed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted > > and > >>> > > lettered > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Reading, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted > > and lettered > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Lehigh > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered > T > > & P > >>> > > (Texas & > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Pacific) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) > -- > > Kit (same > >>> > > as > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > above > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel > and > > brass, > >>>>> > >> > welded > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop > > coupler. > >>>>> > >> > Mantua's > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their > > box cars, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reefers, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > tank > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available > > after this > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > period, but > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 > catalogs > > carry > >>> > > them. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > flat > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they > > also brought > >>>>> > >> > out > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the 8- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars > > also came > >>> > > out > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > then. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel > boxcars > > and > >>> > > reefers > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > always > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the > > floor only > >>> > > that > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > changed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), > and > > then from > >>>>> > >> > cast > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > metal > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the > > molded plastic > >>>>> > >> > dummy > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > knuckle > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > couplers during the metal car period. > > Varney's hook & > >>> > > loop > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > coupler > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > was used pre-War with their embossed > > Strathmore board > >>>>> > >> > sided > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Best, Ray W. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. > > Mantua started > >>> > > with > >>>>> > >> > a > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > body > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > of > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > sheet > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. > > Printed and > >>> > > embossed > >>>>>>> > >>> > > card > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > overlays > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > finished the car. They eventually > > changed to a one- > >>>>> > >> > piece > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > plastic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > body with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed > > steel sides and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > ends, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > plastic roof > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with > > cast frame-- > >>>>> > >> > boxcar > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > reefer > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over > the > > frame. They > >>>>>>> > >>> > > also > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > hook & loop > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB > > coupler. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message --- -- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 > PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the > > 1950s? These > >>> > > were > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > freight > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > car > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > kits > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The > > reefer cars had > >>>>> > >> > metal > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > sides. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > I have > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train > > shows but have > >>> > > never > >>>>>>> > >>> > > seen > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > them > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > anywhere > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits > > were very > >>> > > common. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Mantua > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was > > attached to the > >>>>> > >> > trucks. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > With > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > these > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only > > operate Mantua > >>>>> > >> > cars > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > locos > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > unless > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I > > did. But today > >> > I > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wish > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > I had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > still the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody > seen > > these kits > >>>>>>> > >>> > > anywhere, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > maybe on > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > ebay?- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > -John > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5062	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Mantua Memories/Varney

A few months ago I mentioned that I was working on a clinic about Gordon Varney, and asked for some help. [Plug Time: clinic to be given at NMRA MCR Division 4 in March, and at NMRA MCR Division 2 Jamboree in Pittsburgh in April]. I was amazed at the offers of help I received (and used). Now this additional discussion has provided even more useful information. Thanks guys. All I can do in return for the time being is that if the %^&* handout gets done in time I'll post a copy to Files. Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5063	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

The contest was HO--and Jack was expecting the standard plastic boxcar--which I think was the first plastic car they did in HO Competed against the Kurtz Kraft boxcar--same price, except the Athearn had trucks with it for the same 89 cents. Actually, I'd settle for a complete Mantua Atlantic. I have all the small engines, including the "Mighty Mite" which was the transition between the "Goat" and "Busy Bee", and the "Shifter" and "Booster" die cast locos. MM had the cast cab of the "Shifter" on a brass/zamak loco with the same tender as the "Goat". gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Okay, I got ya now, on the Varney wood floor. These Mantua cars we > all just talked about make a pretty decent addition to a vintage > equipment layout -- they were nicely engineered. Yes, I agree with > you 100%, the hobby needs a Mantua book -- BADLY. Something like > that would sure come in handy. > > How well I remember building those StromBecker cars you mentioned. > For a kid just learning to put these kits together, and just getting > into H0, they were great fun to assemble. I remember that old dry > (casein?) glue they included in the box that you mixed with water; > held pretty good. When done carefully, they were half-way decent > enough to operate on a layout. > > I know what you mean, about the Varney cast metal underframe (that > attached to the wooden floor). BTW, Varney did use a cast metal > floor (in 1952) between the time of their wood floor (in 1949) and > the time if their plastic floor (in 1954). > > Interesting story about that 0 Scale contest. I've seen those > Athearn 0 Scale metal car kits, but never really gave them a good > look. Didn't know how they were constructed. They do look nice > though. Almost makes ya want to switch scales (if you had the room) - > - I said ALMOST! Finding a matching Mantua tender for the Atlantic > may not be easy, unless you're going to settle for something > similar. Varney had a short one that would probably work nicely if > you could find it. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> I meant the wooden floor--I am convinced that this car IS a Mantua-- > the >> recent clarifications have convinced me that it might best be > described as >> a variant of the later (1950's on) cars--adding the overlay sides > to the >> cars with the plastic body and metal floor/frame casting. As I > recall all >> these had the "Talgo" trucks--initially with the traditional Mantua > Coupler, >> later with the X2f. The Varney frames I was comparing with differ > in the >> spacing of the two crossbearers at the door location (Varney wider > than >> Mantua) and that Varney apparently did not use the all-metal > floor/frame >> casting--this was a plastic molding--while Mantua kept the Zamak > frame to >> the end as far as I can see. >> >> I don't recall any Globe cars--but the construction you describe-- > wood >> sub-body with stamped metal overlays--was also used by Athearn and > All >> Nation on their O Scale lines.. Story there--During the 80's Jack > Burgess >> was our contest chairman of Coast Division, PCR/NMRA. For a > special contest >> at one meet he decided that it should be limited to "Athearn 40' > boxcars." >> So I rummaged through my O Scale stuff--actually re-kitted one and > added the >> underbody details--he wasn't going to accept it--until one of the > HO old >> timers brought in one of the HO metal cars--we taught him a thing > or two >> about the history in the hobby. 8^) >> >> Wish someone would do a book on Mantua like the one on Varney. The > first HO >> cars I had were Mantua in 1947-48. NYC box, MDT reefer, T&P gon, > and OT >> Combine. Then Santa brought a Varney F3. I was building > Strombecker models >> of all types then--my Dad built the Mantuas--If I did a good job he > would >> get real trucks and couplers for them. >> >> Anyhow, I think we are on the same page--Right now my Mantua search > is >> focused on finding a tender and some cast parts for the Atlantic. > I have >> the Pacific and Consolidation--both built up with SP-ish details-- > one with a >> scratchbuilt Vanderbilt tender. gj >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:01 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> > Glenn, Alright, I'm not disputing that Varney used a combination >> > wooden floor with a die-cast frame on some of his early metal > cars. >> > This should be a well known fact; I have a number of them > myself. I >> > may have mis-read your earlier post wrong as it appeared to me > that >> > you were saying (1) that Varney used a wood frame (not wood > floor), >> > and (2) that maybe you were trying to tell us that a wood Varney >> > floor on this Mantua reefer was possibly replaced by a cast floor >> > (still pressing that this car was really a Varney). I was looking >> > for you to clarify what you meant by "wood frame," as when I > think in >> > those terms the construction of Globe metal cars comes to my mind >> > (they have a wood frame over which the metal sides, ends and roof > are >> > installed. I think at this point, you also may have misread my >> > question, going by your answer (which I wasn't asking), but we'll > let >> > it go at that. Ray W. >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> OK--I think I covered most of this one in a recent post--Varney > did >> > use a >> >> combination of a wood floor with a die cast metal frame--this may >> > be the >> >> reference to the carryover from the pre-war type kits. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:50 AM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> >> >> > "Replaced the Varney wood frame with the cast one"? I guess > you >> >> > mean "floor"? (Varney didn't have a wood or cast frame). Looks >> > like >> >> > you're still not convinced, since you're apparently now > thinking >> > this >> >> > was kit-bashed -- unless I'm reading this wrong! If so, what >> > does it >> >> > take for you to acknowledge this is the genuine Mantua article? >> > If >> >> > I'm reading this wrong, I'd appreciate some clarity on this. > Ray >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the >> > cast >> >> > one? I'd >> >> >> like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the > construction of >> >> > that part >> >> >> of the car. >> >> >> >> >> >> "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks >> > with >> >> > the >> >> >> one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged >> > flanges. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@> >> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, >> >> > guess I felt >> >> >> > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides > could >> > of >> >> > been >> >> >> > made >> >> >> > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the >> > style >> >> > seems >> >> >> > similar. Roger >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> > From: Glenn476 >> >> >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you >> > please >> >> > re-send >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney >> >> > reefer I know >> >> >> > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over > the >> >> > floor, but >> >> >> > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction >> > what >> >> > parts are >> >> >> > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, >> >> > separate roof. >> >> >> > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and > some >> > of >> >> > the >> >> >> > later >> >> >> > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look >> > like >> >> > Kadee-- >> >> >> > gj >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5064	From: Mary Long	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5065	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

Called a neighbor with a tractor over--I have about 1/4 mile of driveway--most of it clears by driving on it to where the sun can reach the blacktop below. Turning area to access the carport stays shaded all winter so it doesn't melt. But usually snow levels stay above 3 or 4 thousand feet. This storm took it all the way down to sea level .Interstate 5 was closed for several hours due to snow conditions then just after it got open a careless trucker piled up his rig and re-closed the southbound lanes all night. (in Medford OR area). Elevation where I am is 2840 ft. so we usually don't get much snow. Everybody is out of ice melter today. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Snow > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, DLeistikow@... wrote: >> >> John and Glen; Snow Shovelers needed. Coffee's free, at my > house. >> >> Don L. New Berlin >> > SOunds great, love to help. Just as soon as I am shoveled out.... > > John > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5066	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Ray,     Thanks for the information on Athearn boxes for metal cars and on Varney steam.  I no longer have a corrugated “master carton” for the Berkshire and may never have had one since, like most model railroaders, I never throw anything away.                                                                                                                             Lou On 2/1/08 6:47 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Hey Lou,  Many of the Varney locomotive kits came just as you describe.  You then had to buy the tender of your choice in addition to this kit.  I too have this same kit in my collection, it was sold from 1957 to 1960 @ $47.50 (less tender).  The four boxes include; Section 1 & 2 (Mechanism with Motor), Section 3 & 4 (Engine Trucks and Cylinder Assembly), Section 5 & 7 (Valve Gear and Body Fittings) and Section 6 (Boiler with Weight).  These types of kits were all boxed pretty much the same with 4 cardboard boxes inside of a corregated box.  Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > >     My Varney Berkshire came with no tender at all with its kit components > divided up among four separate boxes, each with the Varney Aerotrain > pictured on the box top.  I did buy a tender to go with the locomotive (if I > ever build it), an early Mantua metal coal tender with six-wheel trucks and > a full-depth coal compartment (which therefore could be modelled nearly > empty). > >                     > Lou > > > On 2/1/08 11:02 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > >   > >   > >   > > > > Hi Lou,  Oops yes, slip of the finger there (typo error); I meant > > 1956 -- actually, this kit (#2714K) came out in 1957; it was an > > economy kit.  Although this same engine, with a plastic long- distance > > tender this time, came out in 1961 as kit #2950K.  It was re- issued > > factory assembled (with this same plastic tender) in 1966, and also > > again in kit form (still with the plastic tender) in a low (2") 2- > > piece cardboard box (as Kit #200) having a blue cover with a photo of > > the model on top, the same year.  Thanks for catching that!  Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Ray, > >> > > >> >     Thanks for the very useful and comprehensive review of the > > evolution of > >> > Varney steam locomotives.  In your last paragraph which dates the > > lead-tin > >> > Berkshire boiler, did you mean to write 1956 instead of 1966?   I > > ask because > >> > I bought mine while I was in the service, which was between 1960 > > and 1963. > >> >     Best wishes, and thanks again for the information. > >> > > >> > > >> > On 2/1/08 9:43 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >> > > >>> > >   > >>> > >   > >>> > >   > >>> > > > >>> > > Hello again Bill,  Getting back to dating Varney locos by the > >>> > > material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the major > >>> > > points of the more popular models and also some dates that the > >>> > > material for them was introduced, while trying not to write a book > >>> > > here.  I know some of this information will be repetitious to > > some of > >>> > > the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others --  and I > >>> > > also know due to the many varieties that this won't be exactly > > short > >>> > > either, but here goes something. > >>> > > > >>> > > Any particular models that I'm leaving out -- and there will > >>> > > intentionally be some -- feel free to ask if its of interest to > > you. > >>> > > Of course the easiest way to distinguish pre-War from post- War > >>> > > engines is by the motors and frames that were used.  As most of us > >>> > > know, the pre-War engines all used the V-1 motor, first > > introduced in > >>> > > 1938 as 6 volt, but which was soon modified (either by re- > > winding, or > >>> > > by an aftermarket 6 land armature) to 12 volts (same motor) by > > 1941. > >>> > > On top of that, the pre-War frames were cast zamac with copper > > leaf > >>> > > springs and floating bearing blocks; post-War was either channel > >>> > > brass (one-piece) or stamped two-piece brass to be assembled  with > >>> > > frame rivets.  That's the easy and fast part of telling those two > >>> > > general eras apart. > >>> > > > >>> > > Now for the more pertinent stuff, and ways to date the boiler > >>> > > material even without having an attached frame.  Varney started > > out > >>> > > in 1938 with two cast brass/broze boilers; one Reading type I-10 > >>> > > Class consolidation boiler and the other  a Southern Pacific type > > P- > >>> > > 13 Class pacific boiler, both used for a wider variety of kits > >>> > > including the Consolidation, Pacific, Switcher (0-8-0) and Mikado. > >>> > > These were carried into 1941 when the material for the > > Pacific/Mikado > >>> > > boiler was changed to cast lead/zamac.  The Reading I-10 boilered > >>> > > Consolidation and Switcher were not offered after the War.   Also > > in > >>> > > 1938, The Yellowstone kit and the "Shorty" (4-8-4) GG-1 Electric > > was > >>> > > introduced, both with cast aluminum boiler/body.  In 1939, the > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific kit was introduced, also using a cast > >>> > > brass/bronze boiler in addition to the first two boilers. > >>> > > > >>> > > Now the "tricky" part for some collectors (but the giveaway) -- > > how > >>> > > not to be confused between the cast lead pre-War boiler and the > > cast > >>> > > lead post-War boiler.  The pre-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado boiler > >>> > > did not have any of the details cast on below the walkways - - this > >>> > > included the air tanks, power reverse, air pump, tubing and feed- > >>> > > water heater, which the modeler had to install.  The post- War cast > >>> > > lead Pacific/Mikado boiler had all this detail cast on, except for > >>> > > the air pump and feed-water heater. > >>> > > > >>> > > The post-War Yellowstone boiler (no longer available as a kit) was > >>> > > changed to cast brass/bronze.   A new cast lead Heavy > > Consolidation > >>> > > and Heavy Switcher boiler came out also, after the War, in 1947. > > The > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific Boiler was now used for the Streamlined Hudson > >>> > > kit coming out in 1948.  Sure anyone could have changed the > > trailing > >>> > > truck to a 2-axle, but then too, most Varney running gear > > components > >>> > > for the Pacific, Mikado, Berkshire and Hudsons (Standard and > >>> > > Streamlined) were interchangeable, and anyone could make a > > Berkshire > >>> > > or Standard Hudson using a cast lead Pacific boiler if they wanted > >>> > > to, but we're talking about original here. > >>> > > > >>> > > The cast brass boilers for the Standard Hudson, Mikado and > > Berkshire > >>> > > came out in 1949.  During the Korean War, this Hudson and the > >>> > > Bershire were temporarily discontinued and the Mikado was changed > > to > >>> > > a cast lead boiler.  After this War, production on these three was > >>> > > resumed with the cast brass boilers again. > >>> > > > >>> > > The distinctive Northern cast brass boiler came out in 1949 as > > well, > >>> > > and the extremely well detailed cast lead-tin Berkshire came out > > in > >>> > > 1966 (having extensive detail cast in).  The Casey Jones 10- > > Wheeler > >>> > > came out in 1953, but the Old Lady Consol didn't come out until > >>> > > 1957.  That about the brief of it most of it; its not really very > >>> > > difficult to know about when these engines came out once you > >>> > > familiarize yourself with these little features.  Ray Wetzel > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >>> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill > >>> > > DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Hi all, > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of Varney > >>>>> > >> > producing the sides for the Mantua cars.  I doubt that this is > > the > >>>>> > >> > case for one reason.  A couple months ago I ran across a piece > > in > >>> > > an > >>>>> > >> > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no production > >>> > > facilities > >>>>> > >> > of his own.  ALL parts for his kits were produced by > >>> > > subcontractors. > >>>>> > >> > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and sold them, > > but > >>>>> > >> > never actually manufactured anything. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had diecast > > Zamac > >>>>> > >> > boilers while others had either sand-cast bronze or boilers > > cast of > >>>>> > >> > lead.  I used to think that you could date a Varney loco by the > >>>>> > >> > material used, but there was much overlapping of dates for the > >>> > > three > >>>>> > >> > types. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > I will do some research and try to find the before mentioned > >>>>> > >> > article.  I believe it was around the time of Gordon Varney's > > death. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Bill DeFoe > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>> > >> "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hi Roger,  Okay, that at least pinpoints the time era when > > they > >>>>> > >> > were > >>>>>>> > >>> > > available, even though the shop may have had it for a while. > >>> > > Hard > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory today.  I > > couldn't > >>>>> > >> > quite > >>>>>>> > >>> > > remember when I bought mine, but that time frame does sound > >>>>>>> > >>> > > familiar.  At first glance, those trucks didn't look > > original, > >>> > > but > >>>>> > >> > if > >>>>>>> > >>> > > they operate decently that's one step in the right > > direction; I > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals if you use > > your > >>>>> > >> > cars. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Too bad about the box though.  As I think of it, they may > > also > >>> > > have > >>>>>>> > >>> > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes.  When I come across > > mine, > >>>>> > >> > I'll > >>>>>>> > >>> > > let you know.  Best,  Ray Wetzel > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>> > >>> "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Hello Ray   I bought the Mantua reefer in the 60's at a > > hobby > >>>>> > >> > shop > >>>>>>> > >>> > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone.   Unfortunately the > > box or > >>> > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > trucks were not saved.   Roger Aultman > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   From: erieberk > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was pretty sure > >>> > > that "MANTUA" > >>>>>>> > >>> > > was > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   cast into the frame of these cars and was going to > > state > >>> > > that, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > but > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   without being able to go right to one of them I didn't > > want > >>> > > to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   that without being absolutely positive. My memory of > > it was > >>>>>>> > >>> > > telling > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   me it did have this, though. I hope now, no one will > > try to > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   these are kit-bashed Varney cars using Mantua frames, > > which > >>>>>>> > >>> > > someone > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   might attempt to stretch. Ray > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>> > >>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup of the frame of > > Crazy > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Crystals, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   I scraped the blakening of the letters so that MANTUA > > is > >>>>> > >> > visible, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   though not as well as I wish. Roger > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > From: Glenn476 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 6:20 PM > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. One is a > > complete Varney > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   #B-79, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > West India Fruit & Steamship. It has the tab and > > slot > >>>>> > >> > assembly, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   with a one > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > piece plastic roofwalk and molded plastic > > floor/frame. This > >>>>>>> > >>> > > part > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   has > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded in,Other than > > the > >>> > > doors, > >>>>> > >> > it > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   is > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > identical to the one in Roger's picture. The other > > car is a > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Santa > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   Fe "El > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Capitan", built up, same body construction, but > the > > floor > >>> > > is > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wood > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   with a > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > cast metal frame. I cannot find the reefer I have, > > but on > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reading > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Spanagel's book, that has to be a metal roof with > > plastic > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   hatches. The > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > baked-enamel finish on the roof in the kit I have > > could be > >>>>>>> > >>> > > taken > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   for a > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > plastic roof. I must have deleted Roger's picture, > > can > >>>>> > >> > someone > >>>>>>> > >>> > > re- > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   send it > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > to me. Look in the center of the frame on the > > plastic > >>> > > molding > >>>>>>> > >>> > > for > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   the name. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Spanagel managed to leave out any mention of the > > automatic > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   coupler--I don't > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > think it lasted very long, I think it came out in > > 1954-55, > >>>>> > >> > and > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   was soon > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > displaced by the X2f that the NMRA's HO Coupler > > Committee > >>>>>>> > >>> > > dreamed > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   up. This > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > was rejected by the membership, but became the de > > facto > >>>>>>> > >>> > > standard > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   of the > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > trainset industry. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Apparently the three steel cars were offered > > contemporary > >>>>> > >> > with > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   the plastic > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > gj > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:26 AM > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some of their early > > production > >>>>> > >> > of > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   steel > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > cars using wood floors, although its not commonly > > know. To > >>>>>>> > >>> > > verify > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > this (if you can use this as "verification"), > > Spanagel's > >>>>> > >> > Varney > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   Guide > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > (Greenberg) has this to say about the die-stamped > > sheet > >>> > > steel > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   sides > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > (& ends -- one piece): "These were attached to a > > wooden > >>> > > floor > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > cast underframe borrowed from the last of the > > cardboard- > >>> > > sided > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   Deluxe > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff > > <louie113@> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > Hi Ray, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > Thanks for all the useful information. I’m > > especially > >>> > > glad > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > know that > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > Varney started out with wood floors on their > > steel cars. > >>> > > I’m > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > familiar with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > both the cast metal and plastic floors, and > have > > one > >>> > > boxcar > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > with a wood > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > floor which I wasn’t sure was original. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > All best. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > Lou Greiff > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the Mantua, > although > > I regret > >>> > > in > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   having > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > say you appear to be mistaken on Varney's > > construction > >>> > > of > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > lithographed steel boxcars and reefers. > Yes, > > Varney did > >>>>> > >> > use > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > type of hook & loop couplers for a while. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Although Mantua started in the modeling > > business in > >>> > > 1926, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > earliest catalogs I have of theirs is 1938. > > This > >>> > > catalog > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   carries > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > only three freight car models (all factory > > built) and > >>> > > one > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   in > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > their complete line of H0 -- none having > the > > printed > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   embossed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > card overlays yet. These cars included: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber - Factory painted > > and > >>> > > lettered > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   Reading, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- Factory painted > > and lettered > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Lehigh > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. Price $3.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Flat Car (40') Factory painted and lettered > T > > & P > >>> > > (Texas & > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Pacific) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > and numbered (number unknown). $Price $2.75 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Caboose -- 4-Wheel Bobber (Reading Style) > -- > > Kit (same > >>> > > as > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   above > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Note: ALL cars were made of pressed steel > and > > brass, > >>>>> > >> > welded > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > soldered, and included their hook and loop > > coupler. > >>>>> > >> > Mantua's > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > embossed card overlays to be used on their > > box cars, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reefers, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   tank > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas became available > > after this > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   period, but > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > before the War; both my 1941 and '42 > catalogs > > carry > >>> > > them. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > flat > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > car by this time was cast metal (and they > > also brought > >>>>> > >> > out > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   the 8- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > wheel caboose). The old time passenger cars > > also came > >>> > > out > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   then. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > With Varney, their lithographed steel > boxcars > > and > >>> > > reefers > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   always > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > a factory painted steel roof. It was the > > floor only > >>> > > that > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   changed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > first from wood to cast metal (in 1952), > and > > then from > >>>>> > >> > cast > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   metal > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > molded plastic (in 1954). They used the > > molded plastic > >>>>> > >> > dummy > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > knuckle > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > couplers during the metal car period. > > Varney's hook & > >>> > > loop > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > coupler > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > was used pre-War with their embossed > > Strathmore board > >>>>> > >> > sided > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   cars. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > Best, Ray W. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>   <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > I think you are mixing two brands. > > Mantua started > >>> > > with > >>>>> > >> > a > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   body > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > of > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > sheet > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > metal stampings and die castings. > > Printed and > >>> > > embossed > >>>>>>> > >>> > > card > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > overlays > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > finished the car. They eventually > > changed to a one- > >>>>> > >> > piece > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > plastic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > body with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > Varney had embossed and lithographed > > steel sides and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > ends, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > plastic roof > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > and floor--or earlier wood floor with > > cast frame-- > >>>>> > >> > boxcar > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   and > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > reefer > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > only, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > with a flatcar of stamped metal over > the > > frame. They > >>>>>>> > >>> > > also > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > hook & loop > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > coupler for a while--more like the LGB > > coupler. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > ----- Original Message --- -- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>   <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:46 > PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > Remember the Mantua kits from the > > 1950s? These > >>> > > were > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   freight > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > car > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > kits > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > made of plastic and metal. The > > reefer cars had > >>>>> > >> > metal > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   sides. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > I have > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > looked for these kits at train > > shows but have > >>> > > never > >>>>>>> > >>> > > seen > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > them > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > anywhere > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > today. Back then the Mantua kits > > were very > >>> > > common. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   Mantua > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > cars > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > unique loop coupler which was > > attached to the > >>>>> > >> > trucks. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   With > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > these > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > couplers of course you could only > > operate Mantua > >>>>> > >> > cars > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   and > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > locos > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > unless > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > you changed the couplers which I > > did. But today > >> > I > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wish > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >   I had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > still the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > original couplers. Has anybody > seen > > these kits > >>>>>>> > >>> > > anywhere, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > maybe on > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > ebay?- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > -John > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >   > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >   > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > >   > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > >   > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > >   > >>> > > > >> > > > > >   > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5067	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

Wow...... Mary's got snow clean passed her computer screen.... couldn't even read her message!!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5068	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 2/1/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

Hi Glen ! Stay in stay warm , take care . Sorry for the phantom post Henry H. [for Mary]--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> wrote: > > Wow...... Mary's got snow clean passed her computer screen.... couldn't > even read her message!! >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5069	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

I have a couple pair of Bakers around somewhere, I'll have to see if I can dig them up.   Dondon.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Memories Hi John: Those "hook and loop" couplers were probably old Baker couplers. Very reliable, but terribly unscalish and unprototypical. They survive today on German HO Fleischmann trains. FYI, Baker couplers are what preceded the X2f (so called "NMRA" coupler of the later 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s). I believe Roco still uses them too on their domestic Austrian line of trains. The Roco versions are much smaller than the old US counterparts, and are such that when coupled into a train, are nearly invisible, particularly on their passenger trains. They hide under the cars diaphrams. They work wonderfully -- too bad the morons who make stuff for the US market haven't discovered them yet. I personally wish the old Baker couplers were still around. After having putzed around with McHenrys, and some of the Kadees, they would be a welcome sight to behold once again, LOL. For long trains and continous running (shows, exhibits, etc), they stay coupled with no false uncouplings or break aways, such as we experience here in the US. T'anks for the memories! Dave F ************** Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5070	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

You do bring back memories, I used to hang out at Casabooboos (sic <G>) when I was in the old Indianhead club on 16th. Street, and Garman's when I lived in West Allis.  Now I'm 20 blocks west and 4 blocks north of Walthers, not as much fun.  I never met the LaBelle guys, but Mom says one of them went to our Church in Hartland. (I grew up in Pewaukee, 30' from the Milwaukee Road main. that's where I got my love of trains.  Used to think the Eries on the Olympian were turbines because of the big grills in back <G>)   We may have even met at Trainfest, in addition to loving the vintage I'm 1/4 of "Cream City Traction" (along with Mike Baurs, Jasojn Davies and Jay Cunnington), we always have our modular trolley layout at Trainfest.   Looked at your site, so are you liquidating your collection, or just selling off dupes?   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:29 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Don,     Yes, I live just north of Big Bend.   I have a very large collection of ho trains that I been collecting since the 60's.  I bought most of Garman's Hobby Shop inventory in West Allis before Happy Hobbies took over and also Casanova's Hobby Store when they got out of the hobby business.  Use to hang around with the old man on 51st and Center for many years.  In the 50's and 60's, I use to help package La Belle kit out in Oconomowoc after school.  Boy do I miss those guys......   Anyways, I'm trying to figure out what some of my kits are going for today and then I'll be putting them on my web site I created... Cream City Trains  www.cctrains.com     I just finished the major portion of the site and started to list some items.      Next time I get to the North side when I do a welding project, I should look you up.  I saw you layout and was very impressed.  I'm going to do a switch back module of a small town (1910/1920) above the mining and logging companies on the lower portion.  Aprox. 18' x 4.5".  I want to display it in the next Trainfest at the State Fair.   Have to head out now...   Glen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5071	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

I see that I missed getting back to some of these posts after reading them. As has by now been established, the plastic portion (the major portion of the whole car) of this car was a one-piece injection molded body -- including the roof, with the roof ribs molded in. No. as far as I know, there were never any other cars using this technology -- it was a one-time design of Mantua's. I've never seen, read or heard of anyone else having this design. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > A couple of additional questions on these--are the roof ribs separate stampings or an integral part of the main roof stamping? or did we establish that this was a plastic roof? Were the ends part of the roof? One obvious difference in the underbody, besides the material--the two crossbearers at the door are much closer together on thus one than on the Varney. Were there other cars using this technology? or do you think that this was a one-time design as a part of the transition to the all-plastic body with Zamak frame? gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:23 AM > Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Mantua plastic/metal reefer > > > Glenn, Forwarding Roger's Mantua photos as per your request, I hope help again. Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5072	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

No, while its always possible for unexpected "goodies" to pop out of the woodwork when you least expect it, to the best of my knowledge and from anything I've again seen, read or heard about in discussions on collecting with lots of reliable hobbyists, I'd venture to say Mantua never did a box car like this. They did a small series of Billboard Reefers only. If Roger has come across anything else on this in ads, I'd be extremely interested. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I'm convinced--now I need to find an example of these--did they also do a > boxcar like that" > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:32 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer > > > > Can I detect that with Roger's further description of these cars, and > > the Mantua MR ad that was supplied, that you're finally accepting > > this? We're not trying to snow you, but you're sure a hard sell > > (LOL). Glad to see you've seen the light <g>. Have a good one! Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> so basically it's the car type that followed the metal/card overlay > >> line--with the litho sheet metal overlay. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5073	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories

Okay, that's completely understandable and even expected. I'll try looking for your missing MR's at any upcoming meets I get to. There's a hugh one coming up this month in Allentown, PA; always a good chance of finding all kinds of old stuff there. Unless you get another trade for it, please earmark this issue for me. Happy collecting! Sigmund Wetzel? Sure, he was my great grandfather -- that's how the family struck it rich! -- When the gold was discovered (LOL). -- JUST KIDDING!!!! That's a little odd, as Wetzel is not a very commen name, although there was a family (not related) by the same name living in town only a few blocks away from me. This Sigmund you mention is no relation to me either. Hmmm, on the other hand, maybe I should look into any possibility of this (lol). I'm in Northern New Jersey, BTW. There have always been lots of different train meets around this whole area, some a little ways from here, yet still within a comfortable driving distance -- and these mega-meets are sure worth the drive getting to them. There's one in Springfield, Massachusetts that's great, and an even better one in Timonium, Maryland (a 3 1/2 hour drive) which some of you guys may have seen advertised. A good number of other more local meets too, although I'm noticing some are starting to go more towards 0-Scale and/or tinplate. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I don't have any plans for it--not actively trying to sell it-- would rather > trade for other issues I need==perhaps you can find someone who needs some > of the 1941's, too. > > I don't know what part of the country you're in--I'm in far northern > CA--there is a "Wetzel Way" in Yreka--up in the gold discovery area. A > Sigmund Wetzel is listed in the History of Siskiyou County (1881) as one of > those who signed the petition to incorporate the county in 1854. There are > several other Wetzel's listed. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:36 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories > > > > Glenn, If you don't mind breaking the year up, and don't mind holding > > the December 1941 issue for me until I can find you a trade, I'd much > > appreciate it. Unless you'd sell it outright, in which case let me > > know off-line (< Erieberk@... >). Many thanks, Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> Ray---it stopped snowing--went out and checked the MR duplicates. I > > DO have > >> the full year 1941--but not 1940 > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:48 PM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5074	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Here's another message I was meaning to get back to, to comment on, but got caught up in other stuff here. Glenn, I find this extremely interesting. Us fans here on the East Coast don't get much insight as to the operations of roads like SP during that steam era period many of us like to model (unless we find a detailed article on it somewhere). Although possibly the Cab-Forwards may have been engines only an SP fan could love, I've been an SP fan ever since the #4449 was restored. Those GS engines had to be one of the nicest looking engines ever, on any road. On the MDC 0-6-0, I recall a question like this a while back, which I remember replying to. The 1957 Roundhouse catlog has it listed, with a photograph, so this would seem to indicate it was produced. I've never seen one however -- but then, I've never actively looked for one. I presume without actually having it physically in front of you, its hard to say since they may never have marketed it even though they had it in their catalog. Just publishing it in their catalog is not proof- positive that it was actually released, although I'd think its at least a good indication that it was. While the standard H0 Gauge 0-6-0 Switcher kit was Kit #2L1 (complete with tender, @ $17.50), the narrow gauge H0n3 0-6-0 Switcher kit was Kit #3L1 (complete with tender, @ $21.50). These both kits were also in their catalog as Locomotive Kit Only (less Tender), Switcher Kit (complete, but Less Motor), Tender KIt only, and Switcher, assembled, painted, ready to run, but not lettered. The H0n3 version of this (#3L50) sold for $31.50. BTW, while you may be aware of this, MDC's Catalog #12/newsletter Vol.1 No.3 (undated) which I remember picking up in either the late '70's or early '80's, includes 2 narrow gauge (H0n3) consolidations -- one with outside frame (#472) and the other with inside frame (#473). They also produced a non-powered 0-8-0 T in the 3-1 Series, but you'd have to figure out a way to power it. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > the SP Overnight would have needed a lot of different numbers as it was run > as a solid consist of black boxcars. It was the hottest train on the Coast > Division--left after the Starlight and Lark, passed both enroute when they > made passenger stops. > > do you know whether the MDC HOn3 0-6-0 was ever produced? > > gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:07 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5075	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Bill, You're entirely welcome. While I tried to make it as short as I knew how, there were still a lot of engines and changes to them needed to be gone over if you were to have some kind of a feel for it. The differences are real easy to see when you have them side by side, and of course those larger brass boilers did not come out until well after the War. There may still be some collectors who are not aware of Varney's smaller pre-War brass boilers however, especially if they've never seen one. Of the two of those, the Reading type I- 10 Class boiler is the one least likely to be found. If you're not going to resell a model as original, a nice conversion for your use is installing the pre-War brass/bronze Pacific boiler on the post-War Pacific mechanism as they're all interchangeable. As mentioned, I didn't include everything, but concentrated on the major items. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > All I can say is WOW! That is a wealth of information. I will have to > copy it and study it at length. Thank you very much. > > Bill DeFoe > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Hello again Bill, Getting back to dating Varney locos by the > > material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the major > > points of the more popular models and also some dates that the > > material for them was introduced, while trying not to write a book > > here. I know some of this information will be repetitious to some of > > the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- and I > > also know due to the many varieties that this won't be exactly short > > either, but here goes something. > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5076	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories/Varney

I'll be looking for a copy of that handout in the Files, if and when you get it done -- should be interesting. As for my part, you're quite welcome. If you can think of any other questions on Varney to ask, feel free to. Maybe some of us here will be able to give you an answer. I realize though, that when you're not aware of particular information to begin with, it may not occur to you to ask. You could also browse the archives -- might come up with something more that was never brought up this time around. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...> wrote: > > A few months ago I mentioned that I was working on a clinic about > Gordon Varney, and asked for some help. [Plug Time: clinic to be > given at NMRA MCR Division 4 in March, and at NMRA MCR Division 2 > Jamboree in Pittsburgh in April]. I was amazed at the offers of help > I received (and used). Now this additional discussion has provided > even more useful information. Thanks guys. > > All I can do in return for the time being is that if the %^&* handout > gets done in time I'll post a copy to Files. > > Frank Bongiovanni >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5077	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Okay, now I understand better. Those Kurtz Kraft boxcars were nice, for plastic models, although I never owned any. I do like those early Athearn plastic reefers with the "operational" doors. I have a number of those even though I really don't collect plastic, as well as some very early Train Miniature cars which are no doubt sought by some collectors. Can't hardly beat a price like 89 cents for a kit less you go way back to the '40's. Those Comet kits were 35 cents and the StromBecker kits that were just brought up sold for 40 cents. Like most anything else, those Mantua Atlantics are around from time to time (on eBay); you just have to keep looking for them -- and be willing to reach deep into your pocket. I remember seeing one recently which I believe went in the vicinity of $239 or so, to the best of my recollection; I may be off on that, but doubt if its too far off. I don't really remember what the previous one went for. Real nice collection of Mantua engines you have there. I mainly collected the heavier steam, so I have a couple of the Atlantics and 4 or 5 Pacifics. I don't have the Consolidation even though I'd like one, but I've never seen one at a reasonable price. I think the last one I saw on eBay a few months ago went for well over $400. The engineering on these kits is unbeatable, its easy to see they put a lot of thought into them -- they can run like tops. Ray In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > The contest was HO--and Jack was expecting the standard plastic > boxcar--which I think was the first plastic car they did in HO Competed > against the Kurtz Kraft boxcar--same price, except the Athearn had trucks > with it for the same 89 cents. > > Actually, I'd settle for a complete Mantua Atlantic. I have all the small > engines, including the "Mighty Mite" which was the transition between the > "Goat" and "Busy Bee", and the "Shifter" and "Booster" die cast locos. MM > had the cast cab of the "Shifter" on a brass/zamak loco with the same tender > as the "Goat". gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:37 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Okay, I got ya now, on the Varney wood floor. These Mantua cars we > > all just talked about make a pretty decent addition to a vintage > > equipment layout -- they were nicely engineered. Yes, I agree with > > you 100%, the hobby needs a Mantua book -- BADLY. Something like > > that would sure come in handy. > > > > How well I remember building those StromBecker cars you mentioned. > > For a kid just learning to put these kits together, and just getting > > into H0, they were great fun to assemble. I remember that old dry > > (casein?) glue they included in the box that you mixed with water; > > held pretty good. When done carefully, they were half-way decent > > enough to operate on a layout. > > > > I know what you mean, about the Varney cast metal underframe (that > > attached to the wooden floor). BTW, Varney did use a cast metal > > floor (in 1952) between the time of their wood floor (in 1949) and > > the time if their plastic floor (in 1954). > > > > Interesting story about that 0 Scale contest. I've seen those > > Athearn 0 Scale metal car kits, but never really gave them a good > > look. Didn't know how they were constructed. They do look nice > > though. Almost makes ya want to switch scales (if you had the room) - > > - I said ALMOST! Finding a matching Mantua tender for the Atlantic > > may not be easy, unless you're going to settle for something > > similar. Varney had a short one that would probably work nicely if > > you could find it. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> I meant the wooden floor--I am convinced that this car IS a Mantua-- > > the > >> recent clarifications have convinced me that it might best be > > described as > >> a variant of the later (1950's on) cars--adding the overlay sides > > to the > >> cars with the plastic body and metal floor/frame casting. As I > > recall all > >> these had the "Talgo" trucks--initially with the traditional Mantua > > Coupler, > >> later with the X2f. The Varney frames I was comparing with differ > > in the > >> spacing of the two crossbearers at the door location (Varney wider > > than > >> Mantua) and that Varney apparently did not use the all-metal > > floor/frame > >> casting--this was a plastic molding--while Mantua kept the Zamak > > frame to > >> the end as far as I can see. > >> > >> I don't recall any Globe cars--but the construction you describe- - > > wood > >> sub-body with stamped metal overlays--was also used by Athearn and > > All > >> Nation on their O Scale lines.. Story there--During the 80's Jack > > Burgess > >> was our contest chairman of Coast Division, PCR/NMRA. For a > > special contest > >> at one meet he decided that it should be limited to "Athearn 40' > > boxcars." > >> So I rummaged through my O Scale stuff--actually re-kitted one and > > added the > >> underbody details--he wasn't going to accept it--until one of the > > HO old > >> timers brought in one of the HO metal cars--we taught him a thing > > or two > >> about the history in the hobby. 8^) > >> > >> Wish someone would do a book on Mantua like the one on Varney. The > > first HO > >> cars I had were Mantua in 1947-48. NYC box, MDT reefer, T&P gon, > > and OT > >> Combine. Then Santa brought a Varney F3. I was building > > Strombecker models > >> of all types then--my Dad built the Mantuas--If I did a good job he > > would > >> get real trucks and couplers for them. > >> > >> Anyhow, I think we are on the same page--Right now my Mantua search > > is > >> focused on finding a tender and some cast parts for the Atlantic. > > I have > >> the Pacific and Consolidation--both built up with SP-ish details- - > > one with a > >> scratchbuilt Vanderbilt tender. gj > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:01 AM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> > Glenn, Alright, I'm not disputing that Varney used a combination > >> > wooden floor with a die-cast frame on some of his early metal > > cars. > >> > This should be a well known fact; I have a number of them > > myself. I > >> > may have mis-read your earlier post wrong as it appeared to me > > that > >> > you were saying (1) that Varney used a wood frame (not wood > > floor), > >> > and (2) that maybe you were trying to tell us that a wood Varney > >> > floor on this Mantua reefer was possibly replaced by a cast floor > >> > (still pressing that this car was really a Varney). I was looking > >> > for you to clarify what you meant by "wood frame," as when I > > think in > >> > those terms the construction of Globe metal cars comes to my mind > >> > (they have a wood frame over which the metal sides, ends and roof > > are > >> > installed. I think at this point, you also may have misread my > >> > question, going by your answer (which I wasn't asking), but we'll > > let > >> > it go at that. Ray W. > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> OK--I think I covered most of this one in a recent post-- Varney > > did > >> > use a > >> >> combination of a wood floor with a die cast metal frame--this may > >> > be the > >> >> reference to the carryover from the pre-war type kits. > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:50 AM > >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > "Replaced the Varney wood frame with the cast one"? I guess > > you > >> >> > mean "floor"? (Varney didn't have a wood or cast frame). Looks > >> > like > >> >> > you're still not convinced, since you're apparently now > > thinking > >> > this > >> >> > was kit-bashed -- unless I'm reading this wrong! If so, what > >> > does it > >> >> > take for you to acknowledge this is the genuine Mantua article? > >> > If > >> >> > I'm reading this wrong, I'd appreciate some clarity on this. > > Ray > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the > >> > cast > >> >> > one? I'd > >> >> >> like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the > > construction of > >> >> > that part > >> >> >> of the car. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks > >> > with > >> >> > the > >> >> >> one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged > >> > flanges. > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > >> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, > >> >> > guess I felt > >> >> >> > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides > > could > >> > of > >> >> > been > >> >> >> > made > >> >> >> > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the > >> > style > >> >> > seems > >> >> >> > similar. Roger > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> > From: Glenn476 > >> >> >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM > >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you > >> > please > >> >> > re-send > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney > >> >> > reefer I know > >> >> >> > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over > > the > >> >> > floor, but > >> >> >> > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction > >> > what > >> >> > parts are > >> >> >> > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, > >> >> > separate roof. > >> >> >> > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and > > some > >> > of > >> >> > the > >> >> >> > later > >> >> >> > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look > >> > like > >> >> > Kadee-- > >> >> >> > gj > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5078	From: erieberk	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Lou, you're welcome; it was my pleasure to be able to run that stuff by you. Always fun talking old models. Touching on early Athearn boxes, probably the rarest ones were those used only for the series of the 3 similar but differently colored kits within the Special Box Car Series -- the Timken Roller Freight kits. Each one was marketed in a box used ONLY for that particular model, i.e., A-180 Timken Red came in a box coated in glossy red paper, A-181 Timken Yellow came in a box coated with glossy yellow paper and A-182 Timken Silver came in a box coated in glossy silver paper. These boxes were "dedicated" to these particular cars only. On the Varney corregated "master carton," its possible that, as Glenn brought out, that the individual sections for the kits were sold piece-meal; I can't really recall or verify that. If that were the case, and we don't know if all dealers did this (we don't know if the sections were sold from Varney that way), any dealers who may have offered this may have stocked their shelves in this manner and thrown the corregated box away -- there's always this possibility. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for the information on Athearn boxes for metal cars and on Varney > steam. I no longer have a corrugated ³master carton² for the Berkshire and > may never have had one since, like most model railroaders, I never throw > anything away. > > > Lou > > > On 2/1/08 6:47 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > Hey Lou, Many of the Varney locomotive kits came just as you > > describe. You then had to buy the tender of your choice in addition > > to this kit. I too have this same kit in my collection, it was sold > > from 1957 to 1960 @ $47.50 (less tender). The four boxes include; > > Section 1 & 2 (Mechanism with Motor), Section 3 & 4 (Engine Trucks > > and Cylinder Assembly), Section 5 & 7 (Valve Gear and Body Fittings) > > and Section 6 (Boiler with Weight). These types of kits were all > > boxed pretty much the same with 4 cardboard boxes inside of a > > corregated box. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Ray, > >> > > >> > My Varney Berkshire came with no tender at all with its kit > > components > >> > divided up among four separate boxes, each with the Varney Aerotrain > >> > pictured on the box top. I did buy a tender to go with the > > locomotive (if I > >> > ever build it), an early Mantua metal coal tender with six- wheel > > trucks and > >> > a full-depth coal compartment (which therefore could be modelled > > nearly > >> > empty). > >> > > >> > > >> > Lou > >> > > >> > > >> > On 2/1/08 11:02 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Hi Lou, Oops yes, slip of the finger there (typo error); I meant > >>> > > 1956 -- actually, this kit (#2714K) came out in 1957; it was an > >>> > > economy kit. Although this same engine, with a plastic long- > > distance > >>> > > tender this time, came out in 1961 as kit #2950K. It was re- > > issued > >>> > > factory assembled (with this same plastic tender) in 1966, and > > also > >>> > > again in kit form (still with the plastic tender) in a low (2") 2- > >>> > > piece cardboard box (as Kit #200) having a blue cover with a > > photo of > >>> > > the model on top, the same year. Thanks for catching that! Ray > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >>> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > >>> > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Hi Ray, > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Thanks for the very useful and comprehensive review of the > >>> > > evolution of > >>>>> > >> > Varney steam locomotives. In your last paragraph which dates > > the > >>> > > lead-tin > >>>>> > >> > Berkshire boiler, did you mean to write 1956 instead of 1966? > > I > >>> > > ask because > >>>>> > >> > I bought mine while I was in the service, which was between > > 1960 > >>> > > and 1963. > >>>>> > >> > Best wishes, and thanks again for the information. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > On 2/1/08 9:43 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hello again Bill, Getting back to dating Varney locos by > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the > > major > >>>>>>> > >>> > > points of the more popular models and also some dates that > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > material for them was introduced, while trying not to write > > a book > >>>>>>> > >>> > > here. I know some of this information will be repetitious > > to > >>> > > some of > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- > > and I > >>>>>>> > >>> > > also know due to the many varieties that this won't be > > exactly > >>> > > short > >>>>>>> > >>> > > either, but here goes something. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Any particular models that I'm leaving out -- and there will > >>>>>>> > >>> > > intentionally be some -- feel free to ask if its of > > interest to > >>> > > you. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Of course the easiest way to distinguish pre-War from post- > > War > >>>>>>> > >>> > > engines is by the motors and frames that were used. As > > most of us > >>>>>>> > >>> > > know, the pre-War engines all used the V-1 motor, first > >>> > > introduced in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1938 as 6 volt, but which was soon modified (either by re- > >>> > > winding, or > >>>>>>> > >>> > > by an aftermarket 6 land armature) to 12 volts (same motor) > > by > >>> > > 1941. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > On top of that, the pre-War frames were cast zamac with > > copper > >>> > > leaf > >>>>>>> > >>> > > springs and floating bearing blocks; post-War was either > > channel > >>>>>>> > >>> > > brass (one-piece) or stamped two-piece brass to be > > assembled with > >>>>>>> > >>> > > frame rivets. That's the easy and fast part of telling > > those two > >>>>>>> > >>> > > general eras apart. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Now for the more pertinent stuff, and ways to date the > > boiler > >>>>>>> > >>> > > material even without having an attached frame. Varney > > started > >>> > > out > >>>>>>> > >>> > > in 1938 with two cast brass/broze boilers; one Reading type > > I-10 > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Class consolidation boiler and the other a Southern > > Pacific type > >>> > > P- > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 13 Class pacific boiler, both used for a wider variety of > > kits > >>>>>>> > >>> > > including the Consolidation, Pacific, Switcher (0- 8-0) and > > Mikado. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > These were carried into 1941 when the material for the > >>> > > Pacific/Mikado > >>>>>>> > >>> > > boiler was changed to cast lead/zamac. The Reading I-10 > > boilered > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Consolidation and Switcher were not offered after the War. > > Also > >>> > > in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1938, The Yellowstone kit and the "Shorty" (4-8- 4) GG-1 > > Electric > >>> > > was > >>>>>>> > >>> > > introduced, both with cast aluminum boiler/body. In 1939, > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific kit was introduced, also using a cast > >>>>>>> > >>> > > brass/bronze boiler in addition to the first two boilers. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Now the "tricky" part for some collectors (but the > > giveaway) -- > >>> > > how > >>>>>>> > >>> > > not to be confused between the cast lead pre-War boiler and > > the > >>> > > cast > >>>>>>> > >>> > > lead post-War boiler. The pre-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado > > boiler > >>>>>>> > >>> > > did not have any of the details cast on below the walkways - > > - this > >>>>>>> > >>> > > included the air tanks, power reverse, air pump, tubing and > > feed- > >>>>>>> > >>> > > water heater, which the modeler had to install. The post- > > War cast > >>>>>>> > >>> > > lead Pacific/Mikado boiler had all this detail cast on, > > except for > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the air pump and feed-water heater. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The post-War Yellowstone boiler (no longer available as a > > kit) was > >>>>>>> > >>> > > changed to cast brass/bronze. A new cast lead Heavy > >>> > > Consolidation > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and Heavy Switcher boiler came out also, after the War, in > > 1947. > >>> > > The > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific Boiler was now used for the Streamlined > > Hudson > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit coming out in 1948. Sure anyone could have changed the > >>> > > trailing > >>>>>>> > >>> > > truck to a 2-axle, but then too, most Varney running gear > >>> > > components > >>>>>>> > >>> > > for the Pacific, Mikado, Berkshire and Hudsons (Standard and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Streamlined) were interchangeable, and anyone could make a > >>> > > Berkshire > >>>>>>> > >>> > > or Standard Hudson using a cast lead Pacific boiler if they > > wanted > >>>>>>> > >>> > > to, but we're talking about original here. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The cast brass boilers for the Standard Hudson, Mikado and > >>> > > Berkshire > >>>>>>> > >>> > > came out in 1949. During the Korean War, this Hudson and > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Bershire were temporarily discontinued and the Mikado was > > changed > >>> > > to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > a cast lead boiler. After this War, production on these > > three was > >>>>>>> > >>> > > resumed with the cast brass boilers again. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The distinctive Northern cast brass boiler came out in 1949 > > as > >>> > > well, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and the extremely well detailed cast lead-tin Berkshire > > came out > >>> > > in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1966 (having extensive detail cast in). The Casey Jones 10- > >>> > > Wheeler > >>>>>>> > >>> > > came out in 1953, but the Old Lady Consol didn't come out > > until > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1957. That about the brief of it most of it; its not > > really very > >>>>>>> > >>> > > difficult to know about when these engines came out once you > >>>>>>> > >>> > > familiarize yourself with these little features. Ray Wetzel > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>> > >>> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>> > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill > >>>>>>> > >>> > > DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Hi all, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of > > Varney > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt > that > > this is > >>> > > the > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran > across > > a piece > >>> > > in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > an > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no > > production > >>>>>>> > >>> > > facilities > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by > >>>>>>> > >>> > > subcontractors. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and > > sold them, > >>> > > but > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > never actually manufactured anything. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had > > diecast > >>> > > Zamac > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > boilers while others had either sand- cast bronze or > > boilers > >>> > > cast of > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney > > loco by the > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > material used, but there was much overlapping of > dates > > for the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > three > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > types. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > I will do some research and try to find the before > > mentioned > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon > > Varney's > >>> > > death. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Bill DeFoe > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>> > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the > time > > era when > >>> > > they > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > were > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > available, even though the shop may have had it > > for a while. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hard > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory > > today. I > >>> > > couldn't > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > quite > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > remember when I bought mine, but that time > frame > > does sound > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't > > look > >>> > > original, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > but > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > if > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > they operate decently that's one step in the > right > >>> > > direction; I > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals > if > > you use > >>> > > your > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Too bad about the box though. As I think of > it, > > they may > >>> > > also > >>>>>>> > >>> > > have > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I > > come across > >>> > > mine, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > I'll > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>> > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>> "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in > > the 60's at a > >>> > > hobby > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > shop > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. > > Unfortunately the > >>> > > box or > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > From: erieberk > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>> > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was > > pretty sure > >>>>>>> > >>> > > that "MANTUA" > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > was > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > cast into the frame of these cars and > was > > going to > >>> > > state > >>>>>>> > >>> > > that, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > but > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > without being able to go right to one of > > them I didn't > >>> > > want > >>>>>>> > >>> > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > that without being absolutely positive. > My > > memory of > >>> > > it was > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > telling > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > me it did have this, though. I hope now, > > no one will > >>> > > try to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using > > Mantua frames, > >>> > > which > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > someone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > might attempt to stretch. Ray > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger > > Aultman" <raul@> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup > of > > the frame of > >>> > > Crazy > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Crystals, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > I scraped the blakening of the letters > so > > that MANTUA > >>> > > is > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > visible, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > though not as well as I wish. Roger > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > From: Glenn476 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 > > 6:20 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua > > Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. > > One is a > >>> > > complete Varney > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > #B-79, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It > has > > the tab and > >>> > > slot > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > assembly, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with a one > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded > > plastic > >>> > > floor/frame. This > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > part > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > has > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded > > in,Other than > >>> > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > doors, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > it > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > is > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > identical to the one in Roger's > > picture. The other > >>> > > car is a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Santa > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Fe "El > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Capitan", built up, same body > > construction, but > >> > the > >>> > > floor > >>>>>>> > >>> > > is > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wood > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the > > reefer I have, > >>> > > but on > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reading > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a > > metal roof with > >>> > > plastic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > hatches. The > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in > > the kit I have > >>> > > could be > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > taken > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > for a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > plastic roof. I must have deleted > > Roger's picture, > >>> > > can > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > someone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > re- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > send it > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to me. Look in the center of the > > frame on the > >>> > > plastic > >>>>>>> > >>> > > molding > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > for > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the name. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any > > mention of the > >>> > > automatic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > coupler--I don't > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > think it lasted very long, I think > it > > came out in > >>> > > 1954-55, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > was soon > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > displaced by the X2f that the > NMRA's > > HO Coupler > >>> > > Committee > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > dreamed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > up. This > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > was rejected by the membership, but > > became the de > >>> > > facto > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > standard > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > of the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > trainset industry. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Apparently the three steel cars > were > > offered > >>> > > contemporary > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the plastic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > gj > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 > > 10:26 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua > > Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some > of > > their early > >>> > > production > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > of > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > steel > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars using wood floors, although > its > > not commonly > >>> > > know. To > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > verify > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > this (if you can use this > > as "verification"), > >>> > > Spanagel's > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Varney > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Guide > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > (Greenberg) has this to say about > the > > die-stamped > >>> > > sheet > >>>>>>> > >>> > > steel > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > sides > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were > > attached to a > >>> > > wooden > >>>>>>> > >>> > > floor > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cast underframe borrowed from the > > last of the > >>> > > cardboard- > >>>>>>> > >>> > > sided > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Deluxe > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > Greiff > >>> > > <louie113@> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Hi Ray, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Thanks for all the useful > > information. I¹m > >>> > > especially > >>>>>>> > >>> > > glad > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > know that > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Varney started out with wood > > floors on their > >>> > > steel cars. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > I¹m > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > familiar with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > both the cast metal and plastic > > floors, and > >> > have > >>> > > one > >>>>>>> > >>> > > boxcar > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > with a wood > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was > > original. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > All best. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Lou Greiff > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" > > <erieberk@> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the > > Mantua, > >> > although > >>> > > I regret > >>>>>>> > >>> > > in > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > having > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > say you appear to be > mistaken > > on Varney's > >>> > > construction > >>>>>>> > >>> > > of > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > lithographed steel boxcars > and > > reefers. > >> > Yes, > >>> > > Varney did > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > use > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > type of hook & loop couplers > > for a while. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Although Mantua started in > the > > modeling > >>> > > business in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1926, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > earliest catalogs I have of > > theirs is 1938. > >>> > > This > >>>>>>> > >>> > > catalog > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > carries > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only three freight car > models > > (all factory > >>> > > built) and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > one > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > in > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > their complete line of H0 -- > > none having > >> > the > >>> > > printed > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > embossed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > card overlays yet. These > cars > > included: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4- Wheel Bobber - > > Factory painted > >>> > > and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > lettered > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Reading, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- > > Factory painted > >>> > > and lettered > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Lehigh > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. > > Price $3.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory > painted > > and lettered > >> > T > >>> > > & P > >>>>>>> > >>> > > (Texas & > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Pacific) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > and numbered (number > unknown). > > $Price $2.75 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4- Wheel Bobber > > (Reading Style) > >> > -- > >>> > > Kit (same > >>>>>>> > >>> > > as > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > above > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of > > pressed steel > >> > and > >>> > > brass, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > welded > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > soldered, and included their > > hook and loop > >>> > > coupler. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Mantua's > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > embossed card overlays to be > > used on their > >>> > > box cars, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reefers, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > tank > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas > > became available > >>> > > after this > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > period, but > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > before the War; both my 1941 > > and '42 > >> > catalogs > >>> > > carry > >>>>>>> > >>> > > them. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > flat > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > car by this time was cast > > metal (and they > >>> > > also brought > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > out > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the 8- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > wheel caboose). The old time > > passenger cars > >>> > > also came > >>>>>>> > >>> > > out > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > then. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > With Varney, their > > lithographed steel > >> > boxcars > >>> > > and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reefers > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > always > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > a factory painted steel > roof. > > It was the > >>> > > floor only > >>>>>>> > >>> > > that > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > changed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > first from wood to cast > metal > > (in 1952), > >> > and > >>> > > then from > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > cast > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > metal > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). > They > > used the > >>> > > molded plastic > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > dummy > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > knuckle > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > couplers during the metal > car > > period. > >>> > > Varney's hook & > >>>>>>> > >>> > > loop > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > coupler > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > was used pre- War with their > > embossed > >>> > > Strathmore board > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > sided > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Best, Ray W. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > --- In > > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > I think you are mixing > > two brands. > >>> > > Mantua started > >>>>>>> > >>> > > with > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > body > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > of > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > sheet > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > metal stampings and die > > castings. > >>> > > Printed and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > embossed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > card > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > overlays > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > finished the car. They > > eventually > >>> > > changed to a one- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > piece > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > plastic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > body with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and > > lithographed > >>> > > steel sides and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > ends, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > plastic roof > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > and floor-- or earlier > > wood floor with > >>> > > cast frame-- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > boxcar > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > reefer > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > with a flatcar of > stamped > > metal over > >> > the > >>> > > frame. They > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > also > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > hook & loop > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > coupler for a > while--more > > like the LGB > >>> > > coupler. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message > --- > > -- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" > > <johnbarth@> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > To: > > <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January > > 29, 2008 1:46 > >> > PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] > > Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Remember the > Mantua > > kits from the > >>> > > 1950s? These > >>>>>>> > >>> > > were > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > freight > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > car > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > kits > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > made of plastic > and > > metal. The > >>> > > reefer cars had > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > metal > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > sides. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > I have > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > looked for these > > kits at train > >>> > > shows but have > >>>>>>> > >>> > > never > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > seen > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > them > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > anywhere > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > today. Back then > the > > Mantua kits > >>> > > were very > >>>>>>> > >>> > > common. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Mantua > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > unique loop > coupler > > which was > >>> > > attached to the > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > trucks. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > With > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > these > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > couplers of course > > you could only > >>> > > operate Mantua > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > cars > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > locos > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > unless > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > you changed the > > couplers which I > >>> > > did. But today > >>>>> > >> > I > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wish > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > I had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > still the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > original couplers. > > Has anybody > >> > seen > >>> > > these kits > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > anywhere, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > maybe on > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > ebay?- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > -John > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups > Links > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5079	From: Glen	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Wow.......  Cacabooboos, yes on 16th and Muskego.  Had to watch your head as you walked down into the hobby shop.  That's when every hobby shop had a layout that was never finished, Casabooboos' (big enough 4 people or 3 people over 200#), Garmans (HO layout (incomplete) and Lionel layout (seems to be 5 foot off the floor and chicken wire around it), Happy Hobbies (stuff put on the shelves any which way and with kids and dogs running around), then the shop on 51st and Burleigh ?????, bought all his inventory in the 60's and still had 90% of it in the 80's collecting dust and faded items in window that faced south, and the hobby store on National, downtown West Allis, Model Empire was a big collector in model kits and a few train items.       Yeah, I go to the Trainfest every year, the past four years I've been taking my grandkids.  And I do remember your layout and seeing you guys there.  I can't put the names with the faces,  but I do recall calling with one of you last October.         I've been in trains for a long time, since 1962 with a basement layout in S guage (American Flyer).  By The time I got out of the Marines in 71 I sold all my American Flyer trains before we got married.  Wife said we had no room for all that junk (still married to her today), but today I have a 4,000 s/f out building to store all my junk, as she would says.        So for years, I've been buying large collections from all over the US and local defunked hobby stores and now I'm going to unload the trains I don't need.  If I add 20 items each day to the site, it should take me 6 months to put them all on.  80% of the items I have are freight cars of all types and mostly from the late 50's and 60's.  I've sold most of my unwanted brass for the past 6 years on eBay.  I'm keeping most of my shays, heister, and smaller locos for my layout, plus all the wood kits I have.  I got everything I need to do my switchback module, except the modern day electronics and my benchwork.    I should come out and meet you guys when you get together at your club meeting.  Let me know if that's possible, and if it's yes, then let me know when your next meeting is.   Glen  (one "n")                    From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 5:41 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? You do bring back memories, I used to hang out at Casabooboos (sic <G>) when I was in the old Indianhead club on 16th. Street, and Garman's when I lived in West Allis.  Now I'm 20 blocks west and 4 blocks north of Walthers, not as much fun.  I never met the LaBelle guys, but Mom says one of them went to our Church in Hartland. (I grew up in Pewaukee, 30' from the Milwaukee Road main. that's where I got my love of trains.  Used to think the Eries on the Olympian were turbines because of the big grills in back <G>)   We may have even met at Trainfest, in addition to loving the vintage I'm 1/4 of "Cream City Traction" (along with Mike Baurs, Jasojn Davies and Jay Cunnington), we always have our modular trolley layout at Trainfest.   Looked at your site, so are you liquidating your collection, or just selling off dupes?   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:29 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Don,     Yes, I live just north of Big Bend.   I have a very large collection of ho trains that I been collecting since the 60's.  I bought most of Garman's Hobby Shop inventory in West Allis before Happy Hobbies took over and also Casanova's Hobby Store when they got out of the hobby business.  Use to hang around with the old man on 51st and Center for many years.  In the 50's and 60's, I use to help package La Belle kit out in Oconomowoc after school.  Boy do I miss those guys......   Anyways, I'm trying to figure out what some of my kits are going for today and then I'll be putting them on my web site I created... Cream City Trains  www.cctrains. com     I just finished the major portion of the site and started to list some items.      Next time I get to the North side when I do a welding project, I should look you up.  I saw you layout and was very impressed.  I'm going to do a switch back module of a small town (1910/1920) above the mining and logging companies on the lower portion.  Aprox. 18' x 4.5".  I want to display it in the next Trainfest at the State Fair.   Have to head out now...   Glen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5080	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

Saw on the news parts of OR had 13 FEET of the stuff piled/drifted. I wish you guys luck-and patience. JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:06 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Snow   Called a neighbor with a tractor over--I have about 1/4 mile of driveway--most of it clears by driving on it to where the sun can reach the blacktop below. Turning area to access the carport stays shaded all winter so it doesn't melt. But usually snow levels stay above 3 or 4 thousand feet. This storm took it all the way down to sea level .Interstate 5 was closed for several hours due to snow conditions then just after it got open a careless trucker piled up his rig and re-closed the southbound lanes all night. (in Medford OR area). Elevation where I am is 2840 ft. so we usually don't get much snow. Everybody is out of ice melter today. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Snow > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, DLeistikow@... wrote: >> >> John and Glen; Snow Shovelers needed. Coffee's free, at my > house. >> >> Don L. New Berlin >> > SOunds great, love to help. Just as soon as I am shoveled out.... > > John > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5081	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Snow

That's a bit northeast in the Cascades, but on Mt. Shasta, which I can see from my living room window when it's not cloudy--they have over 16 feet at the ski bowl at 8000 ft. (Shasta is 14,164 ft high)  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:10 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Snow Saw on the news parts of OR had 13 FEET of the stuff piled/drifted. I wish you guys luck-and patience. JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:06 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Snow   Called a neighbor with a tractor over--I have about 1/4 mile of driveway--most of it clears by driving on it to where the sun can reach the blacktop below. Turning area to access the carport stays shaded all winter so it doesn't melt. But usually snow levels stay above 3 or 4 thousand feet. This storm took it all the way down to sea level .Interstate 5 was closed for several hours due to snow conditions then just after it got open a careless trucker piled up his rig and re-closed the southbound lanes all night. (in Medford OR area). Elevation where I am is 2840 ft. so we usually don't get much snow. Everybody is out of ice melter today. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:51 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Snow > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, DLeistikow@... wrote: >> >> John and Glen; Snow Shovelers needed. Coffee's free, at my > house. >> >> Don L. New Berlin >> > SOunds great, love to help. Just as soon as I am shoveled out.... > > John > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5082	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Glen and list: Recalling the old Hobby Shops in the Milwaukee Metro Area, is interesting. Missing from your report was the shop at 33rd and Lisbon.... Herb Groehling(sp) was the proprietor. Talk about old stuff, he had it. What was not on hand, he would offer to order from this Warehouse. I soon found out that his Warehouse was in his garage at his home, off the corner. Seems that he was working the then issue of paying inventory taxes on stock in the store, while inventory in his garage was technically in transit, and thus not taxable. A character he was, and a nice guy, too! I used to bicycle up there and drool over the two traction items 'in stock', one a TMER&L 1180 series duplex (articulated) train. The other was a Milwaukee Northern wood interurban car, which I now recognise as a Paul Moore paper and wood production from a dry kit. As I got into Paul Moore's offerings, I came to realize that this model was not a MN car at all (diamond window in left rear corner) but something resembling a THI&E type. I did not have the money then, so could not make that purchase anyway. I don't recall the name of the proprietor of the shop at 51st and Burleigh but, it's up there in my head, somewhere. If one needed parts, he had them. fwiw.... Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5083	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer

----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 6:14 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua plastic/metal reefer I cannot recollect any other type of cars with that construction, but then there are many things I do not recollect. Roger No, while its always possible for unexpected "goodies" to pop out of the woodwork when you least expect it, to the best of my knowledge and from anything I've again seen, read or heard about in discussions on collecting with lots of reliable hobbyists, I'd venture to say Mantua never did a box car like this. They did a small series of Billboard Reefers only. If Roger has come across anything else on this in ads, I'd be extremely interested. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5084	From: Ted Walton	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Files size of last two Digest formats

MY last two email files from the vintageHO@yahoogroups.com emails, that I received in Digest format , were so large that my Eudora email program or Verizon DSL its self would not down load all the messages - only about half out of 25 messages. In digest format we do not get individual emails, but Yahoo groups them together in units of 25 messages and sends all together as one email. If at the end of the day there are only 4 messages, then they are sent as one email. If there are 50 emails that day from vintageHO, I will receive two emails containing 25 messages each. Of all the Yahoo groups I belong to over the last 6 or 8 years, I have never had this problem before. My email program, Eudore, shows the relative file size of each email (and the Digest format is considered as one email or file). I'm not sure what that number means, but for many Digests with 25 emails from this group and many other Yahoo Groups, the number will typically be 100 or 105, and I have had no problems with sizes of 150 (from this group). However the last two Digest emails (Digest #1134 and 1135) have been 275 and 284 and created the problem for me. This is caused by a few of you members refusing to edit your response and strip out previous comments not necessary for the continuity of your own email. You just add you comments and hit the send button and thus includes all the previous emails and corresponding response that have been going on for maybe for a week or 2, generating a huge file with just your email. I believe someone tried to point this out a couple weeks ago and some of you, including the moderator, misinterpreted his comments as being unfriendly. I cannot believe I'm the only one in this group frustrated by this practice. So if you want to consider my comments unfriendly rather then a helpful and useful suggestion for improvement, so be it, and I will just have to miss some of your messages when the file size exceeds the limit. Ted Walton -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.15/1249 - Release Date: 1/29/2008 9:51 AM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5085	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories

These Wetzels had to have been somewhat prominent to get a street named for them- I have heard of the Springfield meet--have a correspondent in SE Mass--and I know where Timonium is--had a friend in Lutherville, right next door--and I spent 21 months in the DC area courtesy my "Rich Uncle"--Sam--in the mid-sixties--once I managed to save enough of my meager pay ($116 a month as a PFC at the time) I bought a car and started checking out the railroads of the area. When I got out my family had moved here--nearest train show is Medford, OR in November--not too big--can usually get out of there for less than $100-- 8^D Big show was at Sacramento a couple of weeks ago--that's four hours in good weather--275 miles--first 90 thru the mountains. Being mainly an O Scaler, the ultimate is O Scale West, I think it's next weekend--but that's in Santa Clara-- 5 1/2 hours--and for what I'd spend on things I don't really need but look neat, and the hotel, etc--I can get something done on the layout. So most of what I get these days in the way of the collection is "Vulture style"--picking over the boxes of stuff that turns up from people we didn't even know were modelers, who have passed away. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 4:36 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua Memories > Okay, that's completely understandable and even expected. I'll try > looking for your missing MR's at any upcoming meets I get to. > There's a hugh one coming up this month in Allentown, PA; always a > good chance of finding all kinds of old stuff there. Unless you get > another trade for it, please earmark this issue for me. Happy > collecting! > > Sigmund Wetzel? Sure, he was my great grandfather -- that's how the > family struck it rich! -- When the gold was discovered (LOL). -- JUST > KIDDING!!!! That's a little odd, as Wetzel is not a very commen > name, although there was a family (not related) by the same name > living in town only a few blocks away from me. This Sigmund you > mention is no relation to me either. Hmmm, on the other hand, maybe > I should look into any possibility of this (lol). I'm in Northern > New Jersey, BTW. There have always been lots of different train > meets around this whole area, some a little ways from here, yet still > within a comfortable driving distance -- and these mega-meets are > sure worth the drive getting to them. There's one in Springfield, > Massachusetts that's great, and an even better one in Timonium, > Maryland (a 3 1/2 hour drive) which some of you guys may have seen > advertised. A good number of other more local meets too, although > I'm noticing some are starting to go more towards 0-Scale and/or > tinplate. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> I don't have any plans for it--not actively trying to sell it-- > would rather >> trade for other issues I need==perhaps you can find someone who > needs some >> of the 1941's, too. >> >> I don't know what part of the country you're in--I'm in far > northern >> CA--there is a "Wetzel Way" in Yreka--up in the gold discovery > area. A >> Sigmund Wetzel is listed in the History of Siskiyou County (1881) > as one of >> those who signed the petition to incorporate the county in 1854. > There are >> several other Wetzel's listed. gj > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:36 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Model Railroader mag O.T.: was Mantua > Memories >> >> >> > Glenn, If you don't mind breaking the year up, and don't mind > holding >> > the December 1941 issue for me until I can find you a trade, I'd > much >> > appreciate it. Unless you'd sell it outright, in which case let > me >> > know off-line (< Erieberk@... >). Many thanks, Ray >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> Ray---it stopped snowing--went out and checked the MR > duplicates. I >> > DO have >> >> the full year 1941--but not 1940 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:48 PM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5086	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

----- Original Message ----- From: <DLeistikow@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:07 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Glen and list: Recalling the old Hobby Shops in the Milwaukee Metro > Area, is interesting. > > Missing from your report was the shop at 33rd and Lisbon.... Herb > Groehling(sp) was the proprietor. Talk about old stuff, he had it. > What was not on hand, he would offer to order from this Warehouse. I > soon found out that his Warehouse was in his garage at his home, off the > corner. Seems that he was working the then issue of paying inventory > taxes on stock in the store, while inventory in his garage was > technically in transit, and thus not taxable. > > A character he was, and a nice guy, too! I used to bicycle up there and > drool over the two traction items 'in stock', one a TMER&L 1180 series > duplex (articulated) train. The other was a Milwaukee Northern wood > interurban car, which I now recognise as a Paul Moore paper and wood > production from a dry kit. As I got into Paul Moore's offerings, I came > to realize that this model was not a MN car at all (diamond window in > left rear corner) but something resembling a THI&E type. I did not have > the money then, so could not make that purchase anyway. > > I don't recall the name of the proprietor of the shop at 51st and > Burleigh but, it's up there in my head, somewhere. If one needed parts, > he had them. > > fwiw.... Don L. 52st. & Burleigh was Russ's (Russ Pohlman I think his name was). When I first started out in HO there was a shop down somewhere around 27th. & North too that we used to go to when Dad had to pick something up at Sears. I do remember going into Herb's shop a couple times in the early 1970's before he closed, somebody told me Garman had bought all his stock when he closed. (I think it may have been the old man at Garman's who told me that). Then there was Bill at Railway Express, he was a character. Don't go in unless you wanted to have your ear bent with stories for an hour or two. At the time I think he was actually the main US importer of LGB, he claimed to have designed the drive for Atlas' O scale F-9 back in the 70's. We don't have any decent shops anymore. Closest I can think of is Hiawatha out in Waukesha. (I don't consider Happy Hobby a train shop, even though I spent twenty bucks at the 76th. st. store just this morning). Vintage HO opens up a whole new area, Vintage Hobby shops <G>. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5087	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

The GS's looked so good because they were not "over-streamlined"--you could still tell that they were a steam loco. Too many designers in the thirties tried to hide the fact that it WAS a steam loco on the train., I grew up in Redwood City--right on the SP SF-SJ line--my Dad's office was right across from the depot--when we were a one-car family my mother would have to drive us down to get him after work--usually right about the time the westbound Daylight (#99) was due thru--didn't stop--and a couple of commute's. They often had Mountains with the skyline casing and pressed steel pilot.--so also semi-streamlined. The Peninsula Commute pool was the last holdout of steam, so also began to see cab forwards on freights on that line. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 5:29 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Here's another message I was meaning to get back to, to comment on, but > got caught up in other stuff here. Glenn, I find this extremely > interesting. Us fans here on the East Coast don't get much insight as > to the operations of roads like SP during that steam era period many of > us like to model (unless we find a detailed article on it somewhere). > Although possibly the Cab-Forwards may have been engines only an SP fan > could love, I've been an SP fan ever since the #4449 was restored. > Those GS engines had to be one of the nicest looking engines ever, on > any road. > > On the MDC 0-6-0, I recall a question like this a while back, which I > remember replying to. The 1957 Roundhouse catlog has it listed, with a > photograph, so this would seem to indicate it was produced. I've never > seen one however -- but then, I've never actively looked for one. I > presume without actually having it physically in front of you, its hard > to say since they may never have marketed it even though they had it in > their catalog. Just publishing it in their catalog is not proof- > positive that it was actually released, although I'd think its at least > a good indication that it was. While the standard H0 Gauge 0-6-0 > Switcher kit was Kit #2L1 (complete with tender, @ $17.50), the narrow > gauge H0n3 0-6-0 Switcher kit was Kit #3L1 (complete with tender, @ > $21.50). These both kits were also in their catalog as Locomotive Kit > Only (less Tender), Switcher Kit (complete, but Less Motor), Tender KIt > only, and Switcher, assembled, painted, ready to run, but not > lettered. The H0n3 version of this (#3L50) sold for $31.50. > > BTW, while you may be aware of this, MDC's Catalog #12/newsletter Vol.1 > No.3 (undated) which I remember picking up in either the late '70's or > early '80's, includes 2 narrow gauge (H0n3) consolidations -- one with > outside frame (#472) and the other with inside frame (#473). They also > produced a non-powered 0-8-0 T in the 3-1 Series, but you'd have to > figure out a way to power it. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> the SP Overnight would have needed a lot of different numbers as it > was run >> as a solid consist of black boxcars. It was the hottest train on the > Coast >> Division--left after the Starlight and Lark, passed both enroute when > they >> made passenger stops. >> >> do you know whether the MDC HOn3 0-6-0 was ever produced? >> >> gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:07 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5088	From: Mary Long	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Dear Don . Old Hobby shops ? How about Blum's House of Hobbies in downtown Cleveland ? You could get to it by Rapid cars to the Terminal Tower , which also housed the Steam road terminal ready tracks , also bus or Shaker Rapid [PCC] cars . I got my first kit loco there a Varney Super Consol[wish I still had it !] . Lots of great memories . Henry H. Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: <DLeistikow@webtv. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:07 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Glen and list: Recalling the old Hobby Shops in the Milwaukee Metro > Area, is interesting. > > Missing from your report was the shop at 33rd and Lisbon.... Herb > Groehling(sp) was the proprietor. Talk about old stuff, he had it. > What was not on hand, he would offer to order from this Warehouse. I > soon found out that his Warehouse was in his garage at his home, off the > corner. Seems that he was working the then issue of paying inventory > taxes on stock in the store, while inventory in his garage was > technically in transit, and thus not taxable. > > A character he was, and a nice guy, too! I used to bicycle up there and > drool over the two traction items 'in stock', one a TMER&L 1180 series > duplex (articulated) train. The other was a Milwaukee Northern wood > interurban car, which I now recognise as a Paul Moore paper and wood > production from a dry kit. As I got into Paul Moore's offerings, I came > to realize that this model was not a MN car at all (diamond window in > left rear corner) but something resembling a THI&E type. I did not have > the money then, so could not make that purchase anyway. > > I don't recall the name of the proprietor of the shop at 51st and > Burleigh but, it's up there in my head, somewhere. If one needed parts, > he had them. > > fwiw.... Don L. 52st. & Burleigh was Russ's (Russ Pohlman I think his name was). When I first started out in HO there was a shop down somewhere around 27th. & North too that we used to go to when Dad had to pick something up at Sears. I do remember going into Herb's shop a couple times in the early 1970's before he closed, somebody told me Garman had bought all his stock when he closed. (I think it may have been the old man at Garman's who told me that). Then there was Bill at Railway Express, he was a character. Don't go in unless you wanted to have your ear bent with stories for an hour or two. At the time I think he was actually the main US importer of LGB, he claimed to have designed the drive for Atlas' O scale F-9 back in the 70's. We don't have any decent shops anymore. Closest I can think of is Hiawatha out in Waukesha. (I don't consider Happy Hobby a train shop, even though I spent twenty bucks at the 76th. st. store just this morning). Vintage HO opens up a whole new area, Vintage Hobby shops <G>. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5089	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Russ's Hobby Shop

----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:37 PM 52st. & Burleigh was Russ's (Russ Pohlman I think his name was). When I first started out in HO there was a shop down somewhere around 27th. & North too that we used to go to when Dad had to pick something up at Sears. Seems like Russ's was on Center street, in the 60's I bought a new Mantua Goat there. Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5090	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

The KK cars were interesting in that they could probably be considered the first "Craftsman kit" in plastic. First was a PS-1 boxcar--followed by a welded-side reefer that used a lot of the PS-1 parts. Interesting how trends in the hobby go--when MDC came out with their first boxcar, MR's reviewers gushed all over about how "all the picky little details, like ladders and grab irons, were molded on"--20 years later modelers were carving off the molded-on details. The Mantua Pacific and Consolidation came from a friend's estate--Richard Stokes--he had a picture of a train headed by a "Roundhouse" 0-6-0 on the cover of MR during WWII. He was one of the John Allen group. I think that the 2-8-0 is the rarest as I don't recall seeing it advertised after the war. I occasionally bring two Mantua trains down to run for the public at our club layout. We are in the Yreka Western freight house and have to be operating whenever people are gathering to ride the "Blue Goose" steam train. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 6:28 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > Okay, now I understand better. Those Kurtz Kraft boxcars were nice, > for plastic models, although I never owned any. I do like those > early Athearn plastic reefers with the "operational" doors. I have a > number of those even though I really don't collect plastic, as well > as some very early Train Miniature cars which are no doubt sought by > some collectors. Can't hardly beat a price like 89 cents for a kit > less you go way back to the '40's. Those Comet kits were 35 cents > and the StromBecker kits that were just brought up sold for 40 cents. > > Like most anything else, those Mantua Atlantics are around from time > to time (on eBay); you just have to keep looking for

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5091	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

I suspect that all the manufacturers what sold by the section shipped that way from the factory, an this practice, while allowing a modeler to buy as he could afford it, also encouraged buying just a chassis, or boiler, or tender--and perhaps mix and match to build a favorite prototype. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 6:55 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories Lou, you're welcome; it was my pleasure to be able to run that stuff by you. Always fun talking old models. Touching on early Athearn boxes, probably the rarest ones were those used only for the series of the 3 similar but differently colored kits within the Special Box Car Series -- the Timken Roller Freight kits. Each one was marketed in a box used ONLY for that particular model, i.e., A-180 Timken Red came in a box coated in glossy red paper, A-181 Timken Yellow came in a box coated with glossy yellow paper and A-182 Timken Silver came in a box coated in glossy silver paper. These boxes were "dedicated" to these particular cars only. On the Varney corregated "master carton," its possible that, as Glenn brought out, that the individual sections for the kits were sold piece-meal; I can't really recall or verify that. If that were the case, and we don't know if all dealers did this (we don't know if the sections were sold from Varney that way), any dealers who may have offered this may have stocked their shelves in this manner and thrown the corregated box away -- there's always this possibility. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for the information on Athearn boxes for metal cars and on Varney > steam. I no longer have a corrugated ³master carton² for the Berkshire and > may never have had one since, like most model railroaders, I never throw > anything away. > > > Lou > > > On 2/1/08 6:47 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > Hey Lou, Many of the Varney locomotive kits came just as you > > describe. You then had to buy the tender of your choice in addition > > to this kit. I too have this same kit in my collection, it was sold > > from 1957 to 1960 @ $47.50 (less tender). The four boxes include; > > Section 1 & 2 (Mechanism with Motor), Section 3 & 4 (Engine Trucks > > and Cylinder Assembly), Section 5 & 7 (Valve Gear and Body Fittings) > > and Section 6 (Boiler with Weight). These types of kits were all > > boxed pretty much the same with 4 cardboard boxes inside of a > > corregated box. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Ray, > >> > > >> > My Varney Berkshire came with no tender at all with its kit > > components > >> > divided up among four separate boxes, each with the Varney Aerotrain > >> > pictured on the box top. I did buy a tender to go with the > > locomotive (if I > >> > ever build it), an early Mantua metal coal tender with six- wheel > > trucks and > >> > a full-depth coal compartment (which therefore could be modelled > > nearly > >> > empty). > >> > > >> > > >> > Lou > >> > > >> > > >> > On 2/1/08 11:02 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Hi Lou, Oops yes, slip of the finger there (typo error); I meant > >>> > > 1956 -- actually, this kit (#2714K) came out in 1957; it was an > >>> > > economy kit. Although this same engine, with a plastic long- > > distance > >>> > > tender this time, came out in 1961 as kit #2950K. It was re- > > issued > >>> > > factory assembled (with this same plastic tender) in 1966, and > > also > >>> > > again in kit form (still with the plastic tender) in a low (2") 2- > >>> > > piece cardboard box (as Kit #200) having a blue cover with a > > photo of > >>> > > the model on top, the same year. Thanks for catching that! Ray > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > >>> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > >>> > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Hi Ray, > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Thanks for the very useful and comprehensive review of the > >>> > > evolution of > >>>>> > >> > Varney steam locomotives. In your last paragraph which dates > > the > >>> > > lead-tin > >>>>> > >> > Berkshire boiler, did you mean to write 1956 instead of 1966? > > I > >>> > > ask because > >>>>> > >> > I bought mine while I was in the service, which was between > > 1960 > >>> > > and 1963. > >>>>> > >> > Best wishes, and thanks again for the information. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > On 2/1/08 9:43 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hello again Bill, Getting back to dating Varney locos by > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > material that was used -- I'll try to touch on some of the > > major > >>>>>>> > >>> > > points of the more popular models and also some dates that > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > material for them was introduced, while trying not to write > > a book > >>>>>>> > >>> > > here. I know some of this information will be repetitious > > to > >>> > > some of > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the group, but I'm hoping it may be of interest to others -- > > and I > >>>>>>> > >>> > > also know due to the many varieties that this won't be > > exactly > >>> > > short > >>>>>>> > >>> > > either, but here goes something. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Any particular models that I'm leaving out -- and there will > >>>>>>> > >>> > > intentionally be some -- feel free to ask if its of > > interest to > >>> > > you. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Of course the easiest way to distinguish pre-War from post- > > War > >>>>>>> > >>> > > engines is by the motors and frames that were used. As > > most of us > >>>>>>> > >>> > > know, the pre-War engines all used the V-1 motor, first > >>> > > introduced in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1938 as 6 volt, but which was soon modified (either by re- > >>> > > winding, or > >>>>>>> > >>> > > by an aftermarket 6 land armature) to 12 volts (same motor) > > by > >>> > > 1941. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > On top of that, the pre-War frames were cast zamac with > > copper > >>> > > leaf > >>>>>>> > >>> > > springs and floating bearing blocks; post-War was either > > channel > >>>>>>> > >>> > > brass (one-piece) or stamped two-piece brass to be > > assembled with > >>>>>>> > >>> > > frame rivets. That's the easy and fast part of telling > > those two > >>>>>>> > >>> > > general eras apart. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Now for the more pertinent stuff, and ways to date the > > boiler > >>>>>>> > >>> > > material even without having an attached frame. Varney > > started > >>> > > out > >>>>>>> > >>> > > in 1938 with two cast brass/broze boilers; one Reading type > > I-10 > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Class consolidation boiler and the other a Southern > > Pacific type > >>> > > P- > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 13 Class pacific boiler, both used for a wider variety of > > kits > >>>>>>> > >>> > > including the Consolidation, Pacific, Switcher (0- 8-0) and > > Mikado. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > These were carried into 1941 when the material for the > >>> > > Pacific/Mikado > >>>>>>> > >>> > > boiler was changed to cast lead/zamac. The Reading I-10 > > boilered > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Consolidation and Switcher were not offered after the War. > > Also > >>> > > in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1938, The Yellowstone kit and the "Shorty" (4-8- 4) GG-1 > > Electric > >>> > > was > >>>>>>> > >>> > > introduced, both with cast aluminum boiler/body. In 1939, > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific kit was introduced, also using a cast > >>>>>>> > >>> > > brass/bronze boiler in addition to the first two boilers. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Now the "tricky" part for some collectors (but the > > giveaway) -- > >>> > > how > >>>>>>> > >>> > > not to be confused between the cast lead pre-War boiler and > > the > >>> > > cast > >>>>>>> > >>> > > lead post-War boiler. The pre-War cast lead Pacific/Mikado > > boiler > >>>>>>> > >>> > > did not have any of the details cast on below the walkways - > > - this > >>>>>>> > >>> > > included the air tanks, power reverse, air pump, tubing and > > feed- > >>>>>>> > >>> > > water heater, which the modeler had to install. The post- > > War cast > >>>>>>> > >>> > > lead Pacific/Mikado boiler had all this detail cast on, > > except for > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the air pump and feed-water heater. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The post-War Yellowstone boiler (no longer available as a > > kit) was > >>>>>>> > >>> > > changed to cast brass/bronze. A new cast lead Heavy > >>> > > Consolidation > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and Heavy Switcher boiler came out also, after the War, in > > 1947. > >>> > > The > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Streamlined Pacific Boiler was now used for the Streamlined > > Hudson > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit coming out in 1948. Sure anyone could have changed the > >>> > > trailing > >>>>>>> > >>> > > truck to a 2-axle, but then too, most Varney running gear > >>> > > components > >>>>>>> > >>> > > for the Pacific, Mikado, Berkshire and Hudsons (Standard and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Streamlined) were interchangeable, and anyone could make a > >>> > > Berkshire > >>>>>>> > >>> > > or Standard Hudson using a cast lead Pacific boiler if they > > wanted > >>>>>>> > >>> > > to, but we're talking about original here. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The cast brass boilers for the Standard Hudson, Mikado and > >>> > > Berkshire > >>>>>>> > >>> > > came out in 1949. During the Korean War, this Hudson and > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Bershire were temporarily discontinued and the Mikado was > > changed > >>> > > to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > a cast lead boiler. After this War, production on these > > three was > >>>>>>> > >>> > > resumed with the cast brass boilers again. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The distinctive Northern cast brass boiler came out in 1949 > > as > >>> > > well, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and the extremely well detailed cast lead-tin Berkshire > > came out > >>> > > in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1966 (having extensive detail cast in). The Casey Jones 10- > >>> > > Wheeler > >>>>>>> > >>> > > came out in 1953, but the Old Lady Consol didn't come out > > until > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1957. That about the brief of it most of it; its not > > really very > >>>>>>> > >>> > > difficult to know about when these engines came out once you > >>>>>>> > >>> > > familiarize yourself with these little features. Ray Wetzel > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>> > >>> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>> > > 40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill > >>>>>>> > >>> > > DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Hi all, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of > > Varney > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > producing the sides for the Mantua cars. I doubt > that > > this is > >>> > > the > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > case for one reason. A couple months ago I ran > across > > a piece > >>> > > in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > an > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > old issue of MR that stated that Varney had no > > production > >>>>>>> > >>> > > facilities > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > of his own. ALL parts for his kits were produced by > >>>>>>> > >>> > > subcontractors. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Varney assembled the parts into kit form, boxed and > > sold them, > >>> > > but > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > never actually manufactured anything. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > This explains why some of his steam locomotives had > > diecast > >>> > > Zamac > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > boilers while others had either sand- cast bronze or > > boilers > >>> > > cast of > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > lead. I used to think that you could date a Varney > > loco by the > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > material used, but there was much overlapping of > dates > > for the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > three > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > types. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > I will do some research and try to find the before > > mentioned > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > article. I believe it was around the time of Gordon > > Varney's > >>> > > death. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Bill DeFoe > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>> > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hi Roger, Okay, that at least pinpoints the > time > > era when > >>> > > they > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > were > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > available, even though the shop may have had it > > for a while. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Hard > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > find good "old" shops with vintage inventory > > today. I > >>> > > couldn't > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > quite > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > remember when I bought mine, but that time > frame > > does sound > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > familiar. At first glance, those trucks didn't > > look > >>> > > original, > >>>>>>> > >>> > > but > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > if > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > they operate decently that's one step in the > right > >>> > > direction; I > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wouldn't worry about not having the originals > if > > you use > >>> > > your > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Too bad about the box though. As I think of > it, > > they may > >>> > > also > >>>>>>> > >>> > > have > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > come in those small 2-piece red boxes. When I > > come across > >>> > > mine, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > I'll > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > let you know. Best, Ray Wetzel > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>> > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>> "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Hello Ray I bought the Mantua reefer in > > the 60's at a > >>> > > hobby > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > shop > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > in Cedarburg, WI sadly now long gone. > > Unfortunately the > >>> > > box or > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > trucks were not saved. Roger Aultman > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > From: erieberk > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO% > >>> > > 40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:43 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Hi Roger, Thanks for this pic. I was > > pretty sure > >>>>>>> > >>> > > that "MANTUA" > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > was > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > cast into the frame of these cars and > was > > going to > >>> > > state > >>>>>>> > >>> > > that, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > but > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > without being able to go right to one of > > them I didn't > >>> > > want > >>>>>>> > >>> > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > that without being absolutely positive. > My > > memory of > >>> > > it was > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > telling > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > me it did have this, though. I hope now, > > no one will > >>> > > try to > >>>>>>> > >>> > > say > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > these are kit-bashed Varney cars using > > Mantua frames, > >>> > > which > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > someone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > might attempt to stretch. Ray > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Roger > > Aultman" <raul@> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Hello Glenn Attached is a closeup > of > > the frame of > >>> > > Crazy > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Crystals, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > I scraped the blakening of the letters > so > > that MANTUA > >>> > > is > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > visible, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > though not as well as I wish. Roger > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > From: Glenn476 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 > > 6:20 PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua > > Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > OK--I have here two steel boxcars. > > One is a > >>> > > complete Varney > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > #B-79, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > West India Fruit & Steamship. It > has > > the tab and > >>> > > slot > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > assembly, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with a one > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > piece plastic roofwalk and molded > > plastic > >>> > > floor/frame. This > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > part > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > has > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > "Varney" and the number 2040 molded > > in,Other than > >>> > > the > >>>>>>> > >>> > > doors, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > it > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > is > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > identical to the one in Roger's > > picture. The other > >>> > > car is a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Santa > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Fe "El > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Capitan", built up, same body > > construction, but > >> > the > >>> > > floor > >>>>>>> > >>> > > is > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wood > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cast metal frame. I cannot find the > > reefer I have, > >>> > > but on > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reading > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel's book, that has to be a > > metal roof with > >>> > > plastic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > hatches. The > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > baked-enamel finish on the roof in > > the kit I have > >>> > > could be > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > taken > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > for a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > plastic roof. I must have deleted > > Roger's picture, > >>> > > can > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > someone > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > re- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > send it > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to me. Look in the center of the > > frame on the > >>> > > plastic > >>>>>>> > >>> > > molding > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > for > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the name. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Spanagel managed to leave out any > > mention of the > >>> > > automatic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > coupler--I don't > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > think it lasted very long, I think > it > > came out in > >>> > > 1954-55, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > was soon > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > displaced by the X2f that the > NMRA's > > HO Coupler > >>> > > Committee > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > dreamed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > up. This > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > was rejected by the membership, but > > became the de > >>> > > facto > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > standard > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > of the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > trainset industry. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Apparently the three steel cars > were > > offered > >>> > > contemporary > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the plastic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > gj > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 > > 10:26 AM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua > > Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Hi Lou, Yes, Varney did have some > of > > their early > >>> > > production > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > of > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > steel > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars using wood floors, although > its > > not commonly > >>> > > know. To > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > verify > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > this (if you can use this > > as "verification"), > >>> > > Spanagel's > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Varney > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Guide > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > (Greenberg) has this to say about > the > > die-stamped > >>> > > sheet > >>>>>>> > >>> > > steel > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > sides > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > (& ends -- one piece): "These were > > attached to a > >>> > > wooden > >>>>>>> > >>> > > floor > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cast underframe borrowed from the > > last of the > >>> > > cardboard- > >>>>>>> > >>> > > sided > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Deluxe > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > kits of 1948 - 1949." Regards, Ray > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > Greiff > >>> > > <louie113@> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Hi Ray, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Thanks for all the useful > > information. I¹m > >>> > > especially > >>>>>>> > >>> > > glad > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > know that > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Varney started out with wood > > floors on their > >>> > > steel cars. > >>>>>>> > >>> > > I¹m > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > familiar with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > both the cast metal and plastic > > floors, and > >> > have > >>> > > one > >>>>>>> > >>> > > boxcar > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > with a wood > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > floor which I wasn¹t sure was > > original. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > All best. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > Lou Greiff > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > On 1/30/08 11:55 AM, "erieberk" > > <erieberk@> > >>> > > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Hi Glenn, Very close, on the > > Mantua, > >> > although > >>> > > I regret > >>>>>>> > >>> > > in > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > having > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > say you appear to be > mistaken > > on Varney's > >>> > > construction > >>>>>>> > >>> > > of > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > lithographed steel boxcars > and > > reefers. > >> > Yes, > >>> > > Varney did > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > use > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > their > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > type of hook & loop couplers > > for a while. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Although Mantua started in > the > > modeling > >>> > > business in > >>>>>>> > >>> > > 1926, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > earliest catalogs I have of > > theirs is 1938. > >>> > > This > >>>>>>> > >>> > > catalog > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > carries > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only three freight car > models > > (all factory > >>> > > built) and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > one > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > kit > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > in > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > their complete line of H0 -- > > none having > >> > the > >>> > > printed > >>>>>>> > >>> > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > embossed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > card overlays yet. These > cars > > included: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4- Wheel Bobber - > > Factory painted > >>> > > and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > lettered > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Reading, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > numbered 90274. Price $4.25 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Gondola (40') High Side -- > > Factory painted > >>> > > and lettered > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Lehigh > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Valley, and numbered 3140. > > Price $3.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Flat Car (40') Factory > painted > > and lettered > >> > T > >>> > > & P > >>>>>>> > >>> > > (Texas & > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Pacific) > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > and numbered (number > unknown). > > $Price $2.75 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Caboose -- 4- Wheel Bobber > > (Reading Style) > >> > -- > >>> > > Kit (same > >>>>>>> > >>> > > as > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > above > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > caboose. Price $2.00 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Note: ALL cars were made of > > pressed steel > >> > and > >>> > > brass, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > welded > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > soldered, and included their > > hook and loop > >>> > > coupler. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > Mantua's > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > embossed card overlays to be > > used on their > >>> > > box cars, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reefers, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > tank > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > cars, hoppers and gondolas > > became available > >>> > > after this > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > period, but > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > before the War; both my 1941 > > and '42 > >> > catalogs > >>> > > carry > >>>>>>> > >>> > > them. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > The > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > flat > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > car by this time was cast > > metal (and they > >>> > > also brought > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > out > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > the 8- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > wheel caboose). The old time > > passenger cars > >>> > > also came > >>>>>>> > >>> > > out > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > then. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > With Varney, their > > lithographed steel > >> > boxcars > >>> > > and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > reefers > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > always > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > a factory painted steel > roof. > > It was the > >>> > > floor only > >>>>>>> > >>> > > that > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > changed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > first from wood to cast > metal > > (in 1952), > >> > and > >>> > > then from > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > cast > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > metal > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > to > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > molded plastic (in 1954). > They > > used the > >>> > > molded plastic > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > dummy > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > knuckle > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > couplers during the metal > car > > period. > >>> > > Varney's hook & > >>>>>>> > >>> > > loop > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > coupler > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > was used pre- War with their > > embossed > >>> > > Strathmore board > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > sided > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > cars. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Best, Ray W. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > --- In > > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> , > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > "Glenn476" <glenn476@> > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > I think you are mixing > > two brands. > >>> > > Mantua started > >>>>>>> > >>> > > with > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > body > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > of > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > sheet > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > metal stampings and die > > castings. > >>> > > Printed and > >>>>>>> > >>> > > embossed > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > card > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > overlays > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > finished the car. They > > eventually > >>> > > changed to a one- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > piece > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > plastic > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > body with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > a die cast floor/frame. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Varney had embossed and > > lithographed > >>> > > steel sides and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > ends, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > with > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > plastic roof > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > and floor-- or earlier > > wood floor with > >>> > > cast frame-- > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > boxcar > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > reefer > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > only, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > with a flatcar of > stamped > > metal over > >> > the > >>> > > frame. They > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > also > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > hook & loop > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > coupler for a > while--more > > like the LGB > >>> > > coupler. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > ----- Original Message > --- > > -- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > From: "wildwoodjct" > > <johnbarth@> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > To: > > <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:vintageHO% > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, January > > 29, 2008 1:46 > >> > PM > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] > > Mantua Memories > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Remember the > Mantua > > kits from the > >>> > > 1950s? These > >>>>>>> > >>> > > were > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > freight > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > car > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > kits > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > made of plastic > and > > metal. The > >>> > > reefer cars had > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > metal > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > sides. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > I have > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > looked for these > > kits at train > >>> > > shows but have > >>>>>>> > >>> > > never > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > seen > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > them > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > anywhere > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > today. Back then > the > > Mantua kits > >>> > > were very > >>>>>>> > >>> > > common. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > Mantua > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > cars > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > had a > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > unique loop > coupler > > which was > >>> > > attached to the > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > trucks. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > With > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > these > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > couplers of course > > you could only > >>> > > operate Mantua > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > cars > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > and > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > locos > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > unless > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > you changed the > > couplers which I > >>> > > did. But today > >>>>> > >> > I > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > wish > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > I had > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > still the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > original couplers. > > Has anybody > >> > seen > >>> > > these kits > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > anywhere, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > maybe on > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > ebay?- > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > -John > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > Yahoo! Groups > Links > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > > >>>>> > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5092	From: Glen	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Russ's Hobby Shop

Roger,     Nice call....  Russ's.... Couldn't tell you any other place but the one on Burleigh.  At that time, 60's, I lived in Oconomowoc and then we moved to Franklin and didn't go to Russ's until the 70's.  There was a hobby shop in Hales Corners Hobbies between "Robert Hall" and Dutchland Dairy, just around the corner from Bomberg's Bakery where the trolley use to run between Hwy 100 and the parking lot from West Allis to Burlington.   Glen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Aultman Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Russ's Hobby Shop ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:37 PM 52st. & Burleigh was Russ's (Russ Pohlman I think his name was). When I first started out in HO there was a shop down somewhere around 27th. & North too that we used to go to when Dad had to pick something up at Sears. Seems like Russ's was on Center street, in the 60's I bought a new Mantua Goat there. Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5093	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

G-1-N--don't know who that was addressed to-- Siskiyou Model RR Club meets Thursday evenings at 7 pm--although for the winter we are meeting at members' homes, weather permitting From March thru October we are at the YW depot right off I-5 at Exit 775.  This time of the year, we respond to email and phone from traveling modelers.  12" scale live steam operations begin in late May. G-2-N ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 6:57 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn?  I should come out and meet you guys when you get together at your club meeting.  Let me know if that's possible, and if it's yes, then let me know when your next meeting is.   Glen  (one "n")                    From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 5:41 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? You do bring back memories, I used to hang out at Casabooboos (sic <G>) when I was in the old Indianhead club on 16th. Street, and Garman's when I lived in West Allis.  Now I'm 20 blocks west and 4 blocks north of Walthers, not as much fun.  I never met the LaBelle guys, but Mom says one of them went to our Church in Hartland. (I grew up in Pewaukee, 30' from the Milwaukee Road main. that's where I got my love of trains.  Used to think the Eries on the Olympian were turbines because of the big grills in back <G>)   We may have even met at Trainfest, in addition to loving the vintage I'm 1/4 of "Cream City Traction" (along with Mike Baurs, Jasojn Davies and Jay Cunnington), we always have our modular trolley layout at Trainfest.   Looked at your site, so are you liquidating your collection, or just selling off dupes?   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:29 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Don,     Yes, I live just north of Big Bend.   I have a very large collection of ho trains that I been collecting since the 60's.  I bought most of Garman's Hobby Shop inventory in West Allis before Happy Hobbies took over and also Casanova's Hobby Store when they got out of the hobby business.  Use to hang around with the old man on 51st and Center for many years.  In the 50's and 60's, I use to help package La Belle kit out in Oconomowoc after school.  Boy do I miss those guys......   Anyways, I'm trying to figure out what some of my kits are going for today and then I'll be putting them on my web site I created... Cream City Trains  www.cctrains. com     I just finished the major portion of the site and started to list some items.      Next time I get to the North side when I do a welding project, I should look you up.  I saw you layout and was very impressed.  I'm going to do a switch back module of a small town (1910/1920) above the mining and logging companies on the lower portion.  Aprox. 18' x 4.5".  I want to display it in the next Trainfest at the State Fair.   Have to head out now...   Glen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5094	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Unusual Athearn?

Corr's in downtown Washington, DC--I used to go down there when I had time off--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Mary Long To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? Dear Don . Old Hobby shops ? How about Blum's House of Hobbies in downtown Cleveland ? You could get to it by Rapid cars to the Terminal Tower , which also housed the Steam road terminal ready tracks , also bus or Shaker Rapid [PCC] cars . I got my first kit loco there a Varney Super Consol[wish I still had it !] . Lots of great memories . Henry H. Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: <DLeistikow@webtv. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:07 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Unusual Athearn? > Glen and list: Recalling the old Hobby Shops in the Milwaukee Metro > Area, is interesting. > > Missing from your report was the shop at 33rd and Lisbon.... Herb > Groehling(sp) was the proprietor. Talk about old stuff, he had it. > What was not on hand, he would offer to order from this Warehouse. I > soon found out that his Warehouse was in his garage at his home, off the > corner. Seems that he was working the then issue of paying inventory > taxes on stock in the store, while inventory in his garage was > technically in transit, and thus not taxable. > > A character he was, and a nice guy, too! I used to bicycle up there and > drool over the two traction items 'in stock', one a TMER&L 1180 series > duplex (articulated) train. The other was a Milwaukee Northern wood > interurban car, which I now recognise as a Paul Moore paper and wood > production from a dry kit. As I got into Paul Moore's offerings, I came > to realize that this model was not a MN car at all (diamond window in > left rear corner) but something resembling a THI&E type. I did not have > the money then, so could not make that purchase anyway. > > I don't recall the name of the proprietor of the shop at 51st and > Burleigh but, it's up there in my head, somewhere. If one needed parts, > he had them. > > fwiw.... Don L. 52st. & Burleigh was Russ's (Russ Pohlman I think his name was). When I first started out in HO there was a shop down somewhere around 27th. & North too that we used to go to when Dad had to pick something up at Sears. I do remember going into Herb's shop a couple times in the early 1970's before he closed, somebody told me Garman had bought all his stock when he closed. (I think it may have been the old man at Garman's who told me that). Then there was Bill at Railway Express, he was a character. Don't go in unless you wanted to have your ear bent with stories for an hour or two. At the time I think he was actually the main US importer of LGB, he claimed to have designed the drive for Atlas' O scale F-9 back in the 70's. We don't have any decent shops anymore. Closest I can think of is Hiawatha out in Waukesha. (I don't consider Happy Hobby a train shop, even though I spent twenty bucks at the 76th. st. store just this morning). Vintage HO opens up a whole new area, Vintage Hobby shops <G>. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5095	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Vintage Hobby Shops

I see there has been some discussion on old hobby shops.  At the risk of being off topic, I want to mention one whose proprietor inspired me a lot.  I think many have some past places and now vintage people that especially fueled their vintage HO experience.   In my case, it was Realistic Models in Oak Park, IL, owned by Jim Winbolt (1909-1999).   It was on South Blvd just east of Oak Park Avenue facing the Lake Street El and C&NW embankment.   While he focused on HO scale, he also had Lionel during its postwar boom and into the 50's but phased it out in the 60's.   He had a roughly 4x9 HO twice around layout in the window for as long as I can remember.  And it always had a train running.  There was also a larger club model railroad in the basement that many had worked on in years before my time, but for the time I knew him it seemed to have been abandoned and dormant.  I never actually saw it!   He did repair and custom work and custom painting in a workshop in the back of the store.  His workbench faced the store area and he had a pretty good size slit that he could look and watch the store.   We young teenage beginners soaked up knowledge like a sponge from this fine craftsman.  He didn't mind if I stood in back watching him work on things.  I once watched for hours as he was working on scratchbuilding a brass C&NW 4-8-4 - cutting cab parts with a Dremel tool - soldering - all sorts of things.  And I remember him part way through painting an SP Daylight 4-8-4 and cutting masking tape for the red on the boiler sides.  He had a little Miller compressor for painting and this is one of the very few "high dollar" (to me) items that I also bought.   But he was mainly a bit of a character with an almost endless supply of jokes and stories.  And he knew how to tell them.  He also bowled and when he once bowled a 300 game in some local tournament that was a story that everyone got to hear, again and again.   He felt the well dressed man "owned a Rolex, a Bolex, and a Uher".  (Watch, movie camera, tape recorder)  He once came back from a trip to Colorado and was editing some film he took.  I got to look over his shoulder at the hand-cranked film editing gizmo with the little screen on it.  He had actually been up on the tender filming the train in motion.   One of my proudest moments was showing him a Kadee caboose kit that I had made with extensive interior detail (inspired by John Allen actually) and he put it in a display case with a magnifying glass over it.   Sure, us modeling buddies would periodically ride the EL downtown to visit the great "All Nation Hobby Shop" (sort of a mecca in the area) but Realistic Models was like my home away from home.   I also met several people also hanging around the shop that became lifelong friends.  That's a little harder to do by mail order, ebay, or even Yahoo groups.   He eventually closed the shop and moved to Palm Springs and opened a shop there.  I understand that Sinatra was one of his customers.   I see online that he became a member of the Coachella Valley Model RailRoaders in his final years and there is a photo of him on their "memoriam" area.   Every so often I'm in some hobby shop that has some "regulars" standing around taking up space and shooting the breeze.  And that's OK with me because I sure did my share, and still do!   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5096	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Not so common coach

Attachments : An interesting add yto the Milwaukee Northern Roster this week. I came across an "International" Kit. I'd known them from the ready to run stuff they brought in from Japan in the 50's. This is very much like a Walthers kit of the day, except the sides did not fold under the body like the early Walther's car, but were straight like the "Silver Anniversary" line. The kit was missing the floor, but some Northeastern stock took care of that. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5097	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Vintage?

Attachments : Finished another car this afternoon too. Now this one I put to the "purists" in the group. Gordon Varney suggested in the instructions that if you didn't want to laminate cellophane between two sides to make one, you could instead glue the side to a heavier piece of clear styrene, and come up with an extra pair for another car. Of course, I've been doing that since before I read that, so I'm worried on that score, BUT....... Varney Cardstock sides. Varney PRR Roller bearing trucks, Northeastern floor and roof stock, and here's where it gets sticky, Bethlehem Car Works ends and steps.. Is this still considered vintage? (Whether it is or not, I've got another one identical started on the workbench, to go with two coaches abd the combine that ARE completely original (except for couplers) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5098	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Files size of last two Digest formats

My comments were not to be considered "unfriendly", I was referring to another post by another member (who's no longer with us). I agree I have been remiss in not stressing this, but until now it hasn't been that big a problem. There have been some unusually long posts lately, because there's been a LOT of new information shared, but I agree, trimming excess quotations in your reply is something that should be done Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Walton" <trwalton@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Files size of last two Digest formats > MY last two email files from the vintageHO@yahoogroups.com emails, > that I received in Digest format , were so large that my Eudora email > program or Verizon DSL its self would not down load all the messages > - only about half out of 25 messages. In digest format we do not get > individual emails, but Yahoo groups them together in units of 25 > messages and sends all together as one email. If at the end of the > day there are only 4 messages, then they are sent as one email. If > there are 50 emails that day from vintageHO, I will receive two > emails containing 25 messages each. Of all the Yahoo groups I belong > to over the last 6 or 8 years, I have never had this problem before.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5099	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Russ's Hobby Shop

----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Russ's Hobby Shop > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Dellmann > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:37 PM > > 52st. & Burleigh was Russ's (Russ Pohlman I think his name was). When I > first started out in HO there was a shop down somewhere around 27th. & > North > too that we used to go to when Dad had to pick something up at Sears. > > Seems like Russ's was on Center street, in the 60's I bought a new Mantua > Goat there. > Roger Aultman You're right, I'm wrong. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5100	From: Walter	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Files size of last two Digest formats

Tom, You are NOT the only one getting chopped off digests. Comcast does the same thing to me. Luckily, if I download the digest e-mailing with Outlook, then the whole digest appears. Some single messages require 45 hits of the page down key! If there are 2 or 3 of these, Comcast will decide to chop off a hunk of the digest. Curiously, I don't see the message posted by Tom Walton, to which I am responding, in this response. Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5101	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage?

----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 5:30 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage? Finished another car this afternoon too. Now this one I put to the "purists" in the group. Gordon Varney suggested in the instructions that if you didn't want to laminate cellophane between two sides to make one, you could instead glue the side to a heavier piece of clear styrene, and come up with an extra pair for another car. Of course, I've been doing that since before I read that, so I'm worried on that score, BUT....... Varney Cardstock sides. Varney PRR Roller bearing trucks, Northeastern floor and roof stock, and here's where it gets sticky, Bethlehem Car Works ends and steps.. Is this still considered vintage? (Whether it is or not, I've got another one identical started on the workbench, to go with two coaches abd the combine that ARE completely original (except for couplers) Don don.dellmann@... Sure seems vintage in the majority, was it tricky to adapt the Bethlehem Car Works parts? Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5102	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/2/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage? (text bobbitted) > Varney Cardstock sides. Varney PRR Roller bearing trucks, Northeastern > floor and roof stock, and here's where it gets sticky, Bethlehem Car Works > ends and steps.. > > Is this still considered vintage? (Whether it is or not, I've got another > one identical started on the workbench, to go with two coaches abd the > combine that ARE completely original (except for couplers) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > > Sure seems vintage in the majority, was it tricky to adapt the Bethlehem > Car > Works parts? > > Roger Aultman No problem with the sides. I did have to rout out the ends of the roof a bit to make it fit down on the car ends, but you had to do that with Walthers kits too. I did worry a bit about the ends being glued to the floor, because the backs are perfectly flat, so it's just a butt joint between the end and the edge of the floor, but is seems OK so far. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5103	From: AL	Date: 2/3/2008
Subject: semi-OT lurker question re: varney / life-like hoppers

I've been lurking here forever, it seems, although this not being my very first post, lol ... I've been sorting / cleaning the last few days and ran acrossed ( again, lol ) a box containing a batch of the small 2 bay hoppers. Most are Life-Like 1970-80's ( hence the semi-OT ). My question is - on about 90% of the Life-Like 2 bay hoppers I have, there are NO stirrup steps at all. knowing these came from original Varney olds ( hence being semi-OT :) - and the few Varney originals I have have no molded on steps, but metal steps held tot he corners by what appears to be a melted tab - were these Life-Like offerings shipped / manufacturered without the steps as well ? Some later MIB Life-Like cars I have ( 1980's ) have the steps, so was the mold modified later ? Also note the 'non-steps' do not appear broken off ( clean straight breaks ) but are rounded 'nubs' and not discolored or whitened like styrene loosk when broken - find it hard to belive all broke in the same manner, so got me thinking on the Varney origina and the sheetmetal steps. Any info or background ? ~ AL ( promise to post more as I bring more items back into the daylight, lol, :-)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5104	From: erieberk	Date: 2/3/2008
Subject: Re: semi-OT lurker question re: varney / life-like hoppers

Al, While, as I've stated, I'm not a plastic collector, I may have some boxed (from the factory) Life-Like hoppers somewhere around which I'll look for. I'll also check on possible Varney's, but what I want to point out at this time is that the Varney 1966 catalog that I have clearly shows stirrups on all freight cars including the hoppers, as molded with the body on these models, and these are photos, not drawings (artwork). Only the tank cars leave some question about that as their photos aren't that good. Spanagel's Varney Guide shows this as well, although there are some hoppers with only one step on one end (of the side facing the viewer) and the other step is missing, apparently having been broken off. There are also a few hoppers with no steps. While it might be thought that these hopper models varied with their production periods from time to time, the Varney Guide states the following for the early hoppers, and the later ones as well: "Until 1954 a die-cast frame was included to be attached to the unpainted body with two self-tapping screws, but separate frames were eliminated that year, as described below. This frame was also produced by Varney in plastic under the same part number, still utilizing the stamped-steel steps. These frames are available today from Lewis English, who purchased the dies from Life-Like Products in the 1960's." The "as described below" in the above statement is as follows: "Much of the detail was molded in place on the plastic body, including the hopper pocket doors. The metal frames had four steps at the corners, attached at the factory by expanding the rivet over the step hole." This would seem to indicate that the early steps were separate, but you'd see a hole if the step and rivet were missing. As for the Pro-Type hopper kits from the late 1950's (1956 to 1962), the Varney guide has this to say: "In late 1954 Varney simplified the construction of these kits by eliminating the zamac frame. This body style became known as the Pro- Type kit series in the late 1950's. . . . Ladders, steps, coupler, and truck mounts were now all part of the one-piece body." This indicates the steps were molded on as part of the body casting. I see no changes in the Economy Series Hopper Kits (1958 -- 1962), nor in the Ready-To-Run or Kit Hoppers (1957 -- 1968). By this, I'd have to say all of Varney's hopper had four steps of one kind or another throughout their manufacture. BTW, a smaller molded weight was substituted (in place of the zamac frame) with the Pro-Type kits which fit between the hopper pockets and stopped just short of the truck mount. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "AL" <Sailordoode@...> wrote: > > I've been lurking here forever, it seems, although this not being my very > first post, lol ... > > I've been sorting / cleaning the last few days and ran acrossed ( again, > lol ) a box containing a batch of the small 2 bay hoppers. > > Most are Life-Like 1970-80's ( hence the semi-OT ). > > My question is - on about 90% of the Life-Like 2 bay hoppers I have, there > are NO stirrup steps at all. > > knowing these came from original Varney olds ( hence being semi- OT :) - and > the few Varney originals I have have no molded on steps, but metal steps > held tot he corners by what appears to be a melted tab - were these > Life-Like offerings shipped / manufacturered without the steps as well ? > > Some later MIB Life-Like cars I have ( 1980's ) have the steps, so was the > mold modified later ? > > Also note the 'non-steps' do not appear broken off ( clean straight > breaks ) but are rounded 'nubs' and not discolored or whitened like styrene > loosk when broken - find it hard to belive all broke in the same manner, so > got me thinking on the Varney origina and the sheetmetal steps. > > Any info or background ? > > ~ AL > > ( promise to post more as I bring more items back into the daylight, lol, > :-) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5105	From: James Derr	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Question on old HO cars

I also have been cleaning out (must be spring) and found a box of old HO cars. I will try to describe them. There are 3 refers that are all metal with what looks like a hook coupler that is dicast but is either broken or worn off so that it is just a piece of metal with out the hook. There are springs attached around the coupler. These are in good shape but the decals are mostly worn off. Next there is a 1 dome oil tanker SINCLAIR no couplers and it is also all metal SDRX 24712 and it is in good shape. Next are 2 wood bottom cardboard sides box cars also with no couplers the first is SP 33135 built date 12-36.fair shape Next is a Rock Island #62083 also wood and paper this has 1 hornhook coupler with a varney pocket. this one is in good shape but the end panels and the doors are missing as well as the roof walk. next is a plastic GM&O trailer flat with a HO 23' plastic trailer on it again no couplers. Next is a high nose geep SOUTHERN PACIFIC with horn hook couplers that is rubber band drive which I have tried to put washers on but they are a little tight. Is there a place where I can buy the rubber bands for these engines? I buy and sell HO and N-scale trains in the Atlanta area and picked these up on a trade. I have no idea if I should put couplers on the cars or just try to sell them as is. I know that some time if you up grade you actually decrease the value of the cars. Is there any one out there who is familiar with these cars and could tell me if there is any value in them and or anyone who would like to bid on them? I am at a loss as what to do with them. I am afraid if I take them to one of my shows that a horse trader will talk me out of them. Thanks to all of you for your imput JIM DERR

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5106	From: Askerberg	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Paul Moore

I placed a photo in Al-2's photos of my Paul Moore interurban that I partially assembled back around 1957. I almost forgot this is a part of my vintage collection. I have never seen another one anywhere. His car sides were better detailed than the cast metal ends he supplied with the kit. Al Askerberg

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5107	From: Jack Priller	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: PA's for sale

What I have from a friend, who wants these to put to use by somebody, is a group of kits plus: hobbytown of Boston #20000A Alco 2000 HP Road Diesel "A" unit body kit for flywheel drive. Well, that's what the label says; box contains die-cast body, and chassis with ONLY the fly-wheel on it, plus two 9" pieces of .025 brass wire [handrails?] In original box which is in fair condition. h-o-B #27608F-1 Power conversion fit for above. Original box in good condition; still has a $22.95 price sticker on it. Has one partially assembled 6-wheel power truck plus the parts for another. Also has what appears to be some detail parts for the shell listed above. In two old Athearn boxes are another die-cast A unit shell, a B unit shell, a piece of .050 brass cut to the same size as the bottom of the B unit, and 4 each 6-wheel trucks. Included with the above are two each sets of un-opened Microscale #87-775 and 87-876 [Lehigh Valley] decals for the 1940- 1960 paint schemes, and the December 1997 RMC with the article on converting Athearn PA's for the LV. NOT include are any motors; for that you are on your own. Man wants $60 for ALL of the above. A mite cheaper [$12], he also wants me to sell a Bowser LV boxcar kit; good original box, die-cast floor and roof-walk, stamped brass roof, and end/sides. Even has original instruction sheet. "Detail" parts bag un-opened. $9 will cover the shipping if some-one wants everything or just the locos; figure $2 for just the boxcar. Jack Priller El Paso, TX

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5108	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Question on old HO cars

Hi Jim:   Sometimes, it is best to leave old cars and locos as they are for the purpose of selling them to others at train shows. Guys (like me) sometimes like to buy these "as is" and then do our own restorations to our own specifications. Repairing and restoring old models is half the fun of buying old stuff sometimes.   The rationale is that there is already enough of the newer, RTR stuff out there for the man who wants newer models complete and ready to run.   Just an opinion.   Keep well,   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5109	From: Richard Moessner	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Old Trucks

I need some advice. I came upon a box of old freight trucks, probably from the 1950s or 60s. The wheelsets are garbage - rusty axles and deep flanges. But the trucks are sprung types and the metal sideframes and bolsters would be reusable. However, most have that white stuff (oxides?)that forms on old metal parts. Is there a better way to clean up these parts for reuse? And would painting the parts after cleaning slow down the future formation of the white stuff? Thanks. Dick Moessner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5110	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Hi Dick, I suggest to be careful with these.  The white stuff is probably just mold and can be removed with alcohol or some kind of solvent.  But, don't be too surprised if they break with a little bit of stress.  I have, or should say I had a bunch.  I was able to salvage about half by cleaning them up and putting in new Kadee or P2K wheelsets.  However, I also found some of these truck frames used a non-standard axle length.  Since these were not the best castings, I used them as lineside details rather than try to find the right length Reboxx wheelsets.  Generally the trucks that come with Ambroid, Globe, and Silver Streak are pretty decent and only need the wheelsets changed out.  But, let me tell you there were a lot of low quality sprung truck castings out there.  As an addition to this discussion, I have found that graphite seems to work very well as an axle lubricant for rolling stock trucks.  So far, I don't seem to have any problems using graphite.  Does anyone have any comments on this? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: rb_train@... Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:28:23 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] Old Trucks I need some advice. I came upon a box of old freight trucks, probably from the 1950s or 60s. The wheelsets are garbage - rusty axles and deep flanges. But the trucks are sprung types and the metal sideframes and bolsters would be reusable. However, most have that white stuff (oxides?)that forms on old metal parts. Is there a better way to clean up these parts for reuse? And would painting the parts after cleaning slow down the future formation of the white stuff? Thanks. Dick Moessner Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5111	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Paul Moore

Al A and list; Interesting model, looks like it's well done. While the model suggests THI&E, the car as you have assembled it is remeniscent of an Indiana Railroad car that had been one manned. The express doors now on the rear end and passenger boarding steps at the front, would be for one man operation. Nice looking, too. Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5112	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Paul Moore

A quite nice car. It's great to see it. And the observations about it are great to read. Many thanks for posting this image......... I like the ideas I'm getting from it. I'm on the edge of re-making Paul's designs with more detailed relief. If things go right, I'll have the first similar project in under a couple of weeks. I'm converting a Traction and Models article about building an HO PCC from tin-plate, into first a card model and next a sheet styrene model via a nice little cnc-cutter. Then it's on to more conventional interurbans and street trolleys. Partly because I missed out on the Paul Moore works. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Feb 4, 2008, at 3:09 PM, DLeistikow@... wrote: > Al A and list; Interesting model, looks like it's well done. > > While the model suggests THI&E, the car as you have assembled it is > remeniscent of an Indiana Railroad car that had been one manned. The > express doors now on the rear end and passenger boarding steps at the > front, would be for one man operation. > > Nice looking, too. > > Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5113	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Agree with Vic-handle carefully.  I’m guessing the white powder is more of a metallurgical reaction; I have just washed the trucks in soapy water and dried them well in the past.  I think Branchline makes different axle lengths, so you may be able to salvage quite a few of them.  I took the springs out of one side of mine, twisted the sideframes (one side only) to give some more play, and stuck the wheelsets in.   Graphite is an excellent lubricant (Kadee “Greas-Em” for couplers is the same); does not collect dirt as does oil.  I also used to use LaBelle Teflon powder; I think that may now be off the market due to health/inhalation/liability issues.  Good luck!!   Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 3:02 PM To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old Trucks   Hi Dick, I suggest to be careful with these.  The white stuff is probably just mold and can be removed with alcohol or some kind of solvent.  But, don't be too surprised if they break with a little bit of stress.  I have, or should say I had a bunch.  I was able to salvage about half by cleaning them up and putting in new Kadee or P2K wheelsets.  However, I also found some of these truck frames used a non-standard axle length.  Since these were not the best castings, I used them as lineside details rather than try to find the right length Reboxx wheelsets.  Generally the trucks that come with Ambroid, Globe, and Silver Streak are pretty decent and only need the wheelsets changed out.  But, let me tell you there were a lot of low quality sprung truck castings out there.  As an addition to this discussion, I have found that graphite seems to work very well as an axle lubricant for rolling stock trucks.  So far, I don't seem to have any problems using graphite.  Does anyone have any comments on this? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: rb_train@... Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 19:28:23 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] Old Trucks I need some advice. I came upon a box of old freight trucks, probably from the 1950s or 60s. The wheelsets are garbage - rusty axles and deep flanges. But the trucks are sprung types and the metal sideframes and bolsters would be reusable. However, most have that white stuff (oxides?)that forms on old metal parts. Is there a better way to clean up these parts for reuse? And would painting the parts after cleaning slow down the future formation of the white stuff? Thanks. Dick Moessner   Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5114	From: Jack Priller	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

No, I am not really talking to myself, it just looks like it! :>)) Anyway, have added pix of the three bodies, the chassis that is with one of them, the trucks that come with the other two, the partially assembled power truck and one of the four [identical] side frames. Even 'threw in' a picture of the ends of the two original boxes. Google found me a picture of a HoB PA1, and these match. IF no- one here wants them, then eBay??? Jack Priller --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...> wrote: > > What I have from a friend, who wants these to put to use by > somebody, is a group of kits plus: > > hobbytown of Boston #20000A Alco 2000 HP Road Diesel "A" unit > body kit for flywheel drive. Well, that's what the label says; box > contains die-cast body, and chassis with ONLY the fly-wheel on it, > plus two 9" pieces of .025 brass wire [handrails?] In original box > which is in fair condition. > > h-o-B #27608F-1 Power conversion fit for above. Original box > in good condition; still has a $22.95 price sticker on it. Has one > partially assembled 6-wheel power truck plus the parts for another. > Also has what appears to be some detail parts for the shell listed > above. > > In two old Athearn boxes are another die-cast A unit shell, a B > unit shell, a piece of .050 brass cut to the same size as the bottom > of the B unit, and 4 each 6-wheel trucks. > > Included with the above are two each sets of un-opened > Microscale #87-775 and 87-876 [Lehigh Valley] decals for the 1940- > 1960 paint schemes, and the December 1997 RMC with the article on > converting Athearn PA's for the LV. NOT include are any motors; for > that you are on your own. > > Man wants $60 for ALL of the above. > > A mite cheaper [$12], he also wants me to sell a Bowser LV > boxcar kit; good original box, die-cast floor and roof-walk, stamped > brass roof, and end/sides. Even has original instruction > sheet. "Detail" parts bag un-opened. > > $9 will cover the shipping if some-one wants everything or just > the locos; figure $2 for just the boxcar. > > Jack Priller > El Paso, TX >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5115	From: DLeistikow@webtv.net	Date: 2/4/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

Jack Priller: Hobbytown of Boston, says a lot. Good stuff, albeit some parts are missing, such as the motor itself. Argueably the basis for a restoration into a power and dummy set or, even a matched power set with both units motorized. Next step by one interested, would be to locate a set of instructions that came with the kits. You should have no trouble getting these items sold off as the price is in line for the items offered. At least so, in my opinion. Don L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5116	From: AL	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: life like / varney cars

Ray, thanks for the info from the Varney guide ( one I have never been able to pick up ) > "Until 1954 a die-cast frame was included to be attached to the > unpainted body with two self-tapping screws, but separate frames were > eliminated that year, as described below. This frame was also > produced by Varney in plastic under the same part number, still > utilizing the stamped-steel steps. These frames are available today > from Lewis English, who purchased the dies from Life-Like Products in > the 1960's." The "as described below" in the above statement is as > follows: > > "Much of the detail was molded in place on the plastic body, > including the hopper pocket doors. The metal frames had four steps > at the corners, attached at the factory by expanding the rivet over > the step hole." This would seem to indicate that the early steps > were separate, but you'd see a hole if the step and rivet were > missing. This seems to describe the Varney Hoppers I have - will see if I can dig one out and gete a photo. The 'rivet' I believe must refer to a plastic rivet, that the step hole was slipped over, then the rivet (peg) was melted to secure the step - so a broken off step would show just a peg or remains / moldmark therof. The Life-Like cars I have do not show remnants of a peg / rivet, but just two rounded bumbs where the step would be - and as noted, I have 5-6 of these Like-Like cars that all appear identical, which got me thinking - coincedence they all broke the exact spaot ( meaning a weak point in the molding), or were some produced that way ? ( due tot he way the Varney DID have the seperate metal step at one point ). Not a 'life and death' issue, just thought maybe someone had thought about it or seen the seperate step varney like mine and could comment. ( sorry, I am a plastic collector, lol.... mostly 60's-70's that I grew up with, but I have a huge fascination with vintage and pick em up at every opportunity - which means I'll have more "newbie' questions down the road :-) thanks again and do let me know if you find those LLike cars, no rush, etc. ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5117	From: Jack Priller	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

Just a 'day dream' I know, at least for me doing it, but I would love to see the faces of the modern modelers if someone walked in with these 'antique' die-cast locos as an ALL powered [Pittman DC71s?] A-B- A set, and challanged them to a pulling contest. :>)) Jack Priller El Paso, TX --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, DLeistikow@... wrote: > > Jack Priller: Hobbytown of Boston, says a lot. Good stuff, albeit > some parts are missing, such as the motor itself. > > Argueably the basis for a restoration into a power and dummy set or, > even a matched power set with both units motorized. Next step by one > interested, would be to locate a set of instructions that came with the > kits. > > You should have no trouble getting these items sold off as the price is > in line for the items offered. At least so, in my opinion. > > Don L. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5118	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

I believe Pittman motors are still available from Bowser who bought the line several years ago. Hobbytown of Boston has been sold a few times too, but is still in business some- where in NJ.   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5119	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

I used to own one of these Hobbytown PA's and I had re-powered it with a set of slow speed gears and a DC-91 motor, (these were both available at that time from Hobbytown as upgrades). Then I filled all available space with Linotype metal for added weight. I took it to the Pittsburgh Model Railroad Club and walked away with more than 80 cars. That was just ONE unit, I can't imagine what three would pull. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...> wrote: > > Just a 'day dream' I know, at least for me doing it, but I would > love to see the faces of the modern modelers if someone walked in with > these 'antique' die-cast locos as an ALL powered [Pittman DC71s?] A-B- > A set, and challanged them to a pulling contest. :>)) > > Jack Priller > El Paso, TX >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5120	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

I have the Hobbytown F-7 power chassis for the Globe/Athearn unit (circa late 1950’s) with the DC-91 motor (still runs) and the two large weights-it is (was) a brute!  I did not have a layout big enough to test it’s pulling power-but it would pull all the “stiff-running” cars I could put behind it long ago.  Unfortunately, it was a great runner-so I ran it a LOT; pretty well wore out the trucks.  Unfortunately, I never got around to ordering replacement parts to rebuild it from Hobbytown before the doors closed. . . .   JerryG    From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeFoe Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 10:37 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PA's for sale   I used to own one of these Hobbytown PA's and I had re-powered it with a set of slow speed gears and a DC-91 motor, (these were both available at that time from Hobbytown as upgrades). Then I filled all available space with Linotype metal for added weight. I took it to the Pittsburgh Model Railroad Club and walked away with more than 80 cars. That was just ONE unit, I can't imagine what three would pull. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...> wrote: > > Just a 'day dream' I know, at least for me doing it, but I would > love to see the faces of the modern modelers if someone walked in with > these 'antique' die-cast locos as an ALL powered [Pittman DC71s?] A-B- > A set, and challanged them to a pulling contest. :>)) > > Jack Priller > El Paso, TX >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5121	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

Hobbytown (Bear Metals, Whiting, NJ) appears to be  shut down.  Rumor had it that the inventory/business was for sale, but apparently no deal has been consummated. A shame-but the present “instant gratification” market pounds another nail in the coffin of this great hobby.  JerryG   Yes, Bowser has Pittman motors for sale.  In fact, you can get skewed armatures for some of the old motors (try one in a DC-71!) to improve performance. As good as any can motor-just larger amp draw.   JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WK2SHR@... Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 10:31 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: PA's for sale   I believe Pittman motors are still available from Bowser who bought the line several years ago. Hobbytown of Boston has been sold a few times too, but is still in business some- where in NJ.   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5122	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

Attachments : Which part of the trucks wore out? phil -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Jerry Garteiser" <jerryg@...> > I have the Hobbytown F-7 power chassis for the Globe/Athearn unit (circa > late 1950's) with the DC-91 motor (still runs) and the two large weights-it > is (was) a brute! I did not have a layout big enough to test it's pulling > power-but it would pull all the "stiff-running" cars I could put behind it > long ago. Unfortunately, it was a great runner-so I ran it a LOT; pretty > well wore out the trucks. Unfortunately, I never got around to ordering > replacement parts to rebuild it from Hobbytown before the doors closed. . . > . JerryG > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Bill DeFoe > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 10:37 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PA's for sale > > I used to own one of these Hobbytown PA's and I had re-powered it with > a set of slow speed gears and a DC-91 motor, (these were both available > at that time from Hobbytown as upgrades). Then I filled all available > space with Linotype metal for added weight. I took it to the > Pittsburgh Model Railroad Club and walked away with more than 80 cars. > That was just ONE unit, I can't imagine what three would pull. > > Bill DeFoe > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , > "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...> wrote: > > > > Just a 'day dream' I know, at least for me doing it, but I would > > love to see the faces of the modern modelers if someone walked in > with > > these 'antique' die-cast locos as an ALL powered [Pittman DC71s?] A-B- > > A set, and challanged them to a pulling contest. :>)) > > > > Jack Priller > > El Paso, TX > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5123	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

Hi Jerry G: Thanks for the tip on the latest news regarding Hobbytown of Boston in NJ being shut down. A shame. The current owner had bought the business from the guy in Hollywood, FL who had had it for several years. I think part of the problem wasn't so much that the Instant Gratification market has put another nail into the craft-kit companies, as was the fact that the folks who supplied the previous Hollywood, FL Hobbytown owner with cast resin body shells for the later models quit supplying them altogether. This left only drives remaining "for sale", and alone, there probably wasn't much call for those. Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5124	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Item For Sale

List: For any Hobbytown of Boston collectors out there, I have for sale an E-7B metal body casting in original box, $10.00. This is a crude and unfinished casting, as issued, and if anything, might make a great train room decoration or paper weight. I have no intention of ever finishing it, having instead acquired enough of the current-run P2K E7Bs. Shipping is extra. Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5125	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Hobbytown resin shells?

WK2SHR@... wrote: > Hi Jerry G: > > Thanks for the tip on the latest news regarding Hobbytown of Boston in NJ > being shut down. A shame. The current owner had bought the business from > the guy in Hollywood, FL who had had it for several years. I think > part of the > problem wasn't so much that the Instant Gratification market has put > another nail into the craft-kit companies, as was the fact that the folks > who supplied the previous Hollywood, FL Hobbytown owner with cast > resin body > shells for the later models quit supplying them altogether. This left only > drives remaining "for sale", and alone, there probably wasn't much call > for those. > Do you refer to the DL109/ 110 and fake transfer switcher bodies that were sold by both an outfit in FL, and by Trainstuff LLC? Saw several of these ( unfortunately, I also bought three unseen) - they were pirated copuies of brass and plastic models, distorted and crudely cut to shape... worthless. Maybe I got the worst rejects, but I have heard complaints of others too. Saw one of those DL109s on ebay some weeks ago. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5126	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

Many years ago a friend was looking for a Pittman DC-91 motor. I found a Hobbytown PA at an auction--with said motor--so bought it. Sent him the motor. Turned out the brushes were mounted differently from the usual. Meanwhile, I found that the frame had crumbled, so made a new one from K&S brass, with a Pittman industrial motor that filled the body fairly well--added some weight. This unit would haul my Calif Zephyr--2 dummy Athearn ALCo's and 11 ConCor cars on level modules--wouldn't quite handle it on 3% grades. Another friend gave me a Hobbytown RSD-5 he had detailed. There were a bunch of smarty teenagers in the club then--at our shows they would lash up four or five Athearn units and hang 85-90 cars behind them--I;d then come spoil their fun with the RSD-5--drag the whole train with the one unit. 8^) gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 7:58 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PA's for sale > Just a 'day dream' I know, at least for me doing it, but I would > love to see the faces of the modern modelers if someone walked in with > these 'antique' die-cast locos as an ALL powered [Pittman DC71s?] A-B- > A set, and challanged them to a pulling contest. :>)) > > Jack Priller > El Paso, TX > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5127	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

The Pittman model motors may be a different line from the industrial motors being used in O Scale.  ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: PA's for sale I believe Pittman motors are still available from Bowser who bought the line several years ago. Hobbytown of Boston has been sold a few times too, but is still in business some- where in NJ.   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5128	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

I have a multi-drive kit of a E-'X'a and E-'X'b I bought some time ago to mount a then much larger in-cab camera into.......... I do believe they will be assembled in the next few months and brought to the local clubs to challenge the members.......... I've got a Cary E-6a and a Hobbytown E-7b cast body for the set. Yeah........ That sure would be fun!!! Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Feb 5, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Bill DeFoe wrote: > I used to own one of these Hobbytown PA's and I had re-powered it with > a set of slow speed gears and a DC-91 motor, (these were both > available > at that time from Hobbytown as upgrades). Then I filled all available > space with Linotype metal for added weight. I took it to the > Pittsburgh Model Railroad Club and walked away with more than 80 cars. > That was just ONE unit, I can't imagine what three would pull. > > Bill DeFoe > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...> > wrote: >> >> Just a 'day dream' I know, at least for me doing it, but I would >> love to see the faces of the modern modelers if someone walked in > with >> these 'antique' die-cast locos as an ALL powered [Pittman DC71s?] >> A-B- >> A set, and challanged them to a pulling contest. :>)) >> >> Jack Priller >> El Paso, TX

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5129	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

Too bad, I guess i should have bought the RS-3 motoring kit  before he closed up shop.  Maybe I will find one at a train show? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: jerryg@... Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 11:26:46 -0600 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: PA's for sale Hobbytown (Bear Metals, Whiting, NJ) appears to be  shut down.  Rumor had it that the inventory/business was for sale, but apparently no deal has been consummated. A shame-but the present “instant gratification” market pounds another nail in the coffin of this great hobby.  JerryG   Yes, Bowser has Pittman motors for sale.  In fact, you can get skewed armatures for some of the old motors (try one in a DC-71!) to improve performance. As good as any can motor-just larger amp draw.   JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WK2SHR@... Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 10:31 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: PA's for sale   I believe Pittman motors are still available from Bowser who bought the line several years ago. Hobbytown of Boston has been sold a few times too, but is still in business some- where in NJ.   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5130	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: PA's for sale

Don't snag a rear coupler--you'll pull up the track behind them! Pull the paint off the wall. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: PA's for sale >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5131	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?

Hi Gerold: The outfit in FL who sold those cast resin bodies was named "Trainco" and the owners name was Audrey Kushner of Pembroke, Pines, FL. In retrospect, I think he was a shyster who over charged for his products, which is probably one of several reasons why he sold off what was left of the biz. His "Hobbytown of Boston" was an outback shed in FL -- nothing fancy, with most of the resin castings made by one of his friends. The guy who made the resin castings wouldn't supply him with any more one day, and this left Hobbytown sort of high and dry. The guy with the resin molds sold them to another guy - in Canada, who, for a time, tried to market them in the US (apparently, he didn't do so well at it either. That was probably Trainstuff, LLC, but I am not sure). The Florida version of Hobbytown of Boston was pretty well run into the ground by the last owner. He generally made and sold junk, but he filled a niche too where others hadn't yet entered. Being the sucker that I was for vintage engines, I bought some of these. No regrets though, since they do run and do fill a "hole" in the generational gap of things. As for the resin cast bodies, I do have the Transfer loco, and found it to be a good stand-in for NONE that currently exist in the HO RTR market. Using the Kalmbach Diesel Encyc, (one is shown there), I modified mine to represent a PRR version, and its up and running today on the layout with very little trouble. If you have one you want to sell, let me know. I might take it off your hands, if it runs. This doesn't really look (to me) to be any copy of any brass model. More to the point, it is a bastardization of 2 Athearn S-12s hoods, with a U-33 cab sandwiched in between. Unlike all of the other body castings, this one is not resin, but good old hard plastic (Athearn RTR grade). The cab to me is the sore spot, but I've managed to live with it. With PRR Brunswick green paint, it isn't all that noticable (unless you consider that the U33 and its cab were light years into the future of the Center Cab Transfer loco, which represents late 40s or early 50s). I do have one DL-109 (actually, the DL-110) B unit, unpowered. Still haven't gotten around to painting and lettering it, but one of these days. Again, none on the HO plastic market, so this one will have to do. Again, Trainco Hobbytown resin casting. Also, same line of trains, have a BP-20 A and B (passenger sharks, PRR). Nice runners, but demanding extremely wide curves. They have the rear- mounted open framed Pittman motors, which I don't particularly care for, nor do I like the rear-mount. Center mount would be better, since the underbody drive shafts cause problems on curves with these monsters. In addition, have 2 of Traincos (Hobbytowns) FL-9s. Nicely done resin castings, and they run very, very well. Again, considering the FL-9 has never been produced in RTR form for the HO mass market. By todays detailing and tooling standards, these castings are most likely regarded as rude and crude, but there was a time (and still is), where they will HAVE TO DO, since no other models of these engines exist in the mass markets today, at least not yet. Till then, I will hang on to them. I would be willing to let the BP-20s go if anyone is interested though, as these engines are just too big, even for my 7-foot wide curves.... Both units are powered, and in original boxes. Keep well and laugh a little, Dave F   ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5132	From: erieberk	Date: 2/5/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars

Al, You're quite welcome, glad I could be of some help. The Varney guide can be found on eBay from time to time, sometimes reasonably and sometimes much inflated. I've seen them go for around $20 and then I've seen them go for around $70 - $75. I note the retail price of this book, as printed on the back cover, is/was $45.95, which I only saw right now being prompted by your post (mine was given me by Dave as a complimentary issue since I was a contributor). What you're saying about a plastic rivet, melted over to hold the metal steps makes perfect sense and was probably just how they were made. I'd hope to know more when I come across them (and will let you know). Don't feel bad about being a plastic collector (LOL) -- just kidding! As you pointed out, we tend to collect what we grew up with. Some of my best friends, like Dave Doiron (Colorado), Graham Harvey (New York) and the late Roy Scott (Pennsylvania), also contributors to the Varney Guide are/were heavily into plastic collecting. I do have a certain appreciation for it, but enjoy metal and/or wood & metal even more (although a have a certain fascination for Kar Line -- and have a bunch). Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "AL" <Sailordoode@...> wrote: > > > Ray, > > thanks for the info from the Varney guide ( one I have never been able to > pick up ) > > > "Until 1954 a die-cast frame was included to be attached to the > > unpainted body with two self-tapping screws, but separate frames were > > eliminated that year, as described below. This frame was also > > produced by Varney in plastic under the same part number, still > > utilizing the stamped-steel steps. These frames are available today > > from Lewis English, who purchased the dies from Life-Like Products in > > the 1960's." The "as described below" in the above statement is as > > follows: > > > > "Much of the detail was molded in place on the plastic body, > > including the hopper pocket doors. The metal frames had four steps > > at the corners, attached at the factory by expanding the rivet over > > the step hole." This would seem to indicate that the early steps > > were separate, but you'd see a hole if the step and rivet were > > missing. > > This seems to describe the Varney Hoppers I have - will see if I can dig > one out and gete a photo. > > The 'rivet' I believe must refer to a plastic rivet, that the step hole was > slipped over, then the rivet (peg) was melted to secure the step - so a > broken off step would show just a peg or remains / moldmark therof. > The Life-Like cars I have do not show remnants of a peg / rivet, but just > two rounded bumbs where the step would be - and as noted, I have 5- 6 of > these Like-Like cars that all appear identical, which got me thinking - > coincedence they all broke the exact spaot ( meaning a weak point in the > molding), or were some produced that way ? ( due tot he way the Varney DID > have the seperate metal step at one point ). > > Not a 'life and death' issue, just thought maybe someone had thought about > it or seen the seperate step varney like mine and could comment. ( sorry, I > am a plastic collector, lol.... mostly 60's-70's that I grew up with, but I > have a huge fascination with vintage and pick em up at every opportunity - > which means I'll have more "newbie' questions down the road :-) > > thanks again and do let me know if you find those LLike cars, no rush, etc. > > ~ AL >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5133	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars

In the second paragraph---about the plastic rivets--exactly what Varney told you to do in the instructions of that West India Fruit boxcar I mentioned last week. They say to heat a flat screwdriver and flatten the studs on the roofwalk, etc. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 10:06 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: life like / varney cars > What you're saying about a plastic rivet, melted over to hold the > metal steps makes perfect sense and was probably just how they were > made. I'd hope to know more when I come across them (and will let > you know). > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5134	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?

First, I realize I am on weak ground as this may be considered off topic so my apology to those who are not interested in current production resin junk... please use the delete key. However I am really interested about the relationship between the companies involved so I continue. Hi Dave,  comments in text: The outfit in FL who sold those cast resin bodies was named "Trainco" and the owners name was Audrey Kushner of Pembroke, Pines, FL. In retrospect, I think he was a shyster who over charged for his products, which is probably one of several reasons why he sold off what was left of the biz. His "Hobbytown of Boston" was an outback shed in FL -- nothing fancy, with most of the resin castings made by one of his friends. The guy who made the resin castings wouldn't supply him with any more one day, and this left Hobbytown sort of high and dry. The guy with the resin molds sold them to another guy - in Canada, who, for a time, tried to market them in the US (apparently, he didn't do so well at it either. I once bought a DL109 shell and a transfer switcher shell from FL but forgot details about the company. This were empty shells, the transfer switcher was basically two BL2 long hoods joined at the center of the stock cab and reasonably well done, the DL109 was somewhat distorted and longer than the ones sold by Trainstuff but obviously done by the same person. cost $8 per shell if my memory serves me right. That was probably Trainstuff, LLC, but I am not sure). Trainstuff was located somewhere in the south ( TN ; GA ? ) when I bought a complete DL109/110 set from them for $275 or so.... the drive was a lenghtened Athearn drive, well done, but the shells were the worst junk I ever came about. Strangely, with this order they sent me a third unit free of charge ...  also junk. This happened a short time before LL released the generic DL109; I used a small piece of the resin DL110 to convert a LL 109 to a B unit.  I understand Trainstuff moved north in the meantime, they still sold at eBay maybe one year ago The Florida version of Hobbytown of Boston was pretty well run into the ground by the last owner. He generally made and sold junk, but he filled a niche too where others hadn't yet entered. Being the sucker that I was for vintage engines, I bought some of these. No regrets though, since they do run and do fill a "hole" in the generational gap of things. As for the resin cast bodies, I do have the Transfer loco, and found it to be a good stand-in for NONE that currently exist in the HO RTR market. Using the Kalmbach Diesel Encyc, (one is shown there), I modified mine to represent a PRR version, and its up and running today on the layout with very little trouble. If you have one you want to sell, let me know. I might take it off your hands, if it runs. I remember they listed a EMD transfer switcher ( the double BL2) and a Baldwin TS, obviously the one you have. Unfortunately , I have only a bare shell. Called the person in charge when I made the purchase, I remember I was under the impression he did not know what he was selling... he had no even an idea what drive components might fit. BTW, I built a DT2000 from a Stewart AS 616 kit - hoods are a little long , could have shortened them but like it this way and as it is lettered for my private line thats ok. Plan to do another one with EMD switcher hoods , C&EI style This doesn't really look (to me) to be any copy of any brass model. More to the point, it is a bastardization of 2 Athearn S-12s hoods, with a U-33 cab sandwiched in between. Unlike all of the other body castings, this one is not resin, but good old hard plastic (Athearn RTR grade). The cab to me is the sore spot, but I've managed to live with it. With PRR Brunswick green paint, it isn't all that noticable (unless you consider that the U33 and its cab were light years into the future of the Center Cab Transfer loco, which represents late 40s or early 50s). I do have one DL-109 (actually, the DL-110) B unit, unpowered. Still haven't gotten around to painting and lettering it, but one of these days. Again, none on the HO plastic market, so this one will have to do. Again, Trainco Hobbytown resin casting. I found that Hallmark DL109/110 sets show up regularly at eBay and sell as low as $120 - the nose of the A unit looks like an anteater but the B unit is nice. Also, same line of trains, have a BP-20 A and B (passenger sharks, PRR). Nice runners, but demanding extremely wide curves. They have the rear- mounted open framed Pittman motors, which I don't particularly care for, nor do I like the rear-mount. Center mount would be better, since the underbody drive shafts cause problems on curves with these monsters. Bought a BP20 AB set from Canada , they were done very well - this was the company that did the resin Turbine shortly before the Lionel came out... Miracle Castings ... bodys were straight, well detailed, bought them as "rejects" for $ 65 ? apiece but they were better than all the other boidys mentioned before. No drive but a resin frame that was supposed to accept Athearn components; I did not like it and used the lengthened PA frames that came with the Trainstuff bodies. In addition, have 2 of Traincos (Hobbytowns) FL-9s. Nicely done resin castings, and they run very, very well. Again, considering the FL-9 has never been produced in RTR form for the HO mass market. Never have seen them ... but I remember some time ago somebody sold resin  NH EP5 bodies; "Branford Hobbies" comes to my mind... maybe some connection? By todays detailing and tooling standards, these castings are most likely regarded as rude and crude, but there was a time (and still is), where they will HAVE TO DO, since no other models of these engines exist in the mass markets today, at least not yet. Till then, I will hang on to them. I learned , the hard way, that if I start with a bad resin body, until I have rectified all its shortcomings, iadapted an acceptable drive, added details, painted it , I am in the price range of used brass - or some manufacturer has come up with a mass produced model as it happened with the DL109. I would be willing to let the BP-20s go if anyone is interested though, as these engines are just too big, even for my 7-foot wide curves.... Both units are powered, and in original boxes. Keep well and laugh a little, Ok - can already laugh about this *now*,  had smoke coming out of my ears when I unpacked the DLs  five ? years ago... If possible I would like to see a picture of your Transfer Switcher. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5135	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?

First, I realize I am on weak ground as this may be considered off topic so my apology to those who are not interested in current production resin junk... please use the delete key. However I am really interested about the relationship between the companies involved so I continue. Hi Dave, comments in text: > The outfit in FL who sold those cast resin bodies was named "Trainco" and > the owners name was Audrey Kushner of Pembroke, Pines, FL. In retrospect, > I think he was a shyster who over charged for his products, which is > probably one of several reasons why he sold off what was left of the > biz. His "Hobbytown of Boston" was an outback shed in FL -- nothing > fancy, with most of the resin castings made by one of his friends. The > guy who made the resin castings wouldn't supply him with any more > one day, and this left Hobbytown sort of high and dry. The guy with > the resin molds sold them to another guy - in Canada, who, for a time, > tried to market them in the US (apparently, he didn't do so well at it > either. I once bought a DL109 shell and a transfer switcher shell from FL but forgot details about the company. This were empty shells, the transfer switcher was basically two BL2 long hoods joined at the center of the stock cab and reasonably well done, the DL109 was somewhat distorted and longer than the ones sold by Trainstuff but obviously done by the same person. cost $8 per shell if my memory serves me right. > That was probably Trainstuff, LLC, but I am not sure). Trainstuff was located somewhere in the south ( TN ; GA ? ) when I bought a complete DL109/110 set from them for $275 or so.... the drive was a lenghtened Athearn drive, well done, but the shells were the worst junk I ever came about. Strangely, with this order they sent me a third unit free of charge ... also junk. This happened a short time before LL released the generic DL109; I used a small piece of the resin DL110 to convert a LL 109 to a B unit. I understand Trainstuff moved north in the meantime, they still sold at eBay maybe one year ago > > The Florida version of Hobbytown of Boston was pretty well run into > the ground by the last owner. He generally made and sold junk, but > he filled a niche too where others hadn't yet entered. Being the sucker > that I was for vintage engines, I bought some of these. No regrets though, > since they do run and do fill a "hole" in the generational gap of things. > > As for the resin cast bodies, I do have the Transfer loco, and found it to > be a good stand-in for NONE that currently exist in the HO RTR market. > Using the Kalmbach Diesel Encyc, (one is shown there), I modified mine > to represent a PRR version, and its up and running today on the layout > with very little trouble. If you have one you want to sell, let me know. I > might take it off your hands, if it runs. I remember they listed a EMD transfer switcher ( the double BL2) and a Baldwin TS, obviously the one you have. Unfortunately , I have only a bare shell. Called the person in charge when I made the purchase, I remember I was under the impression he did not know what he was selling... he had no even an idea what drive components might fit. BTW, I built a DT2000 from a Stewart AS 616 kit - hoods are a little long , could have shortened them but like it this way and as it is lettered for my private line thats ok. Plan to do another one with EMD switcher hoods , C&EI style > > This doesn't really look (to me) to be any copy of any brass model. More > to the point, it is a bastardization of 2 Athearn S-12s hoods, with a > U-33 cab sandwiched in between. Unlike all of the other body castings, > this one is not resin, but good old hard plastic (Athearn RTR grade). The > cab to me is the sore spot, but I've managed to live with it. With PRR > Brunswick green paint, it isn't all that noticable (unless you consider > that the U33 and its cab were light years into the future of the > Center Cab > Transfer loco, which represents late 40s or early 50s). > > I do have one DL-109 (actually, the DL-110) B unit, unpowered. Still > haven't gotten around to painting and lettering it, but one of these days. > Again, none on the HO plastic market, so this one will have to do. > Again, Trainco Hobbytown resin casting. I found that Hallmark DL109/110 sets show up regularly at eBay and sell as low as $120 - the nose of the A unit looks like an anteater but the B unit is nice. > > Also, same line of trains, have a BP-20 A and B (passenger sharks, PRR). > Nice runners, but demanding extremely wide curves. They have the rear- > mounted open framed Pittman motors, which I don't particularly care for, > nor do I like the rear-mount. Center mount would be better, since the > underbody drive shafts cause problems on curves with these monsters. Bought a BP20 AB set from Canada , they were done very well - this was the company that did the resin Turbine shortly before the Lionel came out... Miracle Castings ... bodys were straight, well detailed, bought them as "rejects" for $ 65 ? apiece but they were better than all the other boidys mentioned before. No drive but a resin frame that was supposed to accept Athearn components; I did not like it and used the lengthened PA frames that came with the Trainstuff bodies. > > In addition, have 2 of Traincos (Hobbytowns) FL-9s. Nicely done resin > castings, and they run very, very well. Again, considering the FL-9 has > never been produced in RTR form for the HO mass market. Never have seen them ... but I remember some time ago somebody sold resin NH EP5 bodies; "Branford Hobbies" comes to my mind... maybe some connection? > > By todays detailing and tooling standards, these castings are most > likely regarded as rude and crude, but there was a time (and still is), > where they will HAVE TO DO, since no other models of these engines > exist in the mass markets today, at least not yet. Till then, I will > hang on to them. I learned , the hard way, that if I start with a bad resin body, until I have rectified all its shortcomings, iadapted an acceptable drive, added details, painted it , I am in the price range of used brass - or some manufacturer has come up with a mass produced model as it happened with the DL109. > > I would be willing to let the BP-20s go if anyone is interested though, > as these engines are just too big, even for my 7-foot wide curves.... > Both units are powered, and in original boxes. > > Keep well and laugh a little, > Ok - can already laugh about this *now*, had smoke coming out of my ears when I unpacked the DLs five ? years ago... If possible I would like to see a picture of your Transfer Switcher. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5136	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?

Don't knock "contemporary Resin Junk"--someone might be collecting it some day and would love to find your write-up on those mystery shells he has.  8^)    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbytown resin shells? First, I realize I am on weak ground as this may be considered off topic so my apology to those who are not interested in current production resin junk... please use the delete key. However I am really interested about the relationship between the companies involved so I continue. Hi Dave,  comments in text: The outfit in FL who sold those cast resin bodies was named "Trainco" and the owners name was Audrey Kushner of Pembroke, Pines, FL. In retrospect, I think he was a shyster who over charged for his products, which is probably one of several reasons why he sold off what was left of the biz. His "Hobbytown of Boston" was an outback shed in FL -- nothing fancy, with most of the resin castings made by one of his friends. The guy who made the resin castings wouldn't supply him with any more one day, and this left Hobbytown sort of high and dry. The guy with the resin molds sold them to another guy - in Canada, who, for a time, tried to market them in the US (apparently, he didn't do so well at it either. I once bought a DL109 shell and a transfer switcher shell from FL but forgot details about the company. This were empty shells, the transfer switcher was basically two BL2 long hoods joined at the center of the stock cab and reasonably well done, the DL109 was somewhat distorted and longer than the ones sold by Trainstuff but obviously done by the same person. cost $8 per shell if my memory serves me right. That was probably Trainstuff, LLC, but I am not sure). Trainstuff was located somewhere in the south ( TN ; GA ? ) when I bought a complete DL109/110 set from them for $275 or so.... the drive was a lenghtened Athearn drive, well done, but the shells were the worst junk I ever came about. Strangely, with this order they sent me a third unit free of charge ...  also junk. This happened a short time before LL released the generic DL109; I used a small piece of the resin DL110 to convert a LL 109 to a B unit.  I understand Trainstuff moved north in the meantime, they still sold at eBay maybe one year ago The Florida version of Hobbytown of Boston was pretty well run into the ground by the last owner. He generally made and sold junk, but he filled a niche too where others hadn't yet entered. Being the sucker that I was for vintage engines, I bought some of these. No regrets though, since they do run and do fill a "hole" in the generational gap of things. As for the resin cast bodies, I do have the Transfer loco, and found it to be a good stand-in for NONE that currently exist in the HO RTR market. Using the Kalmbach Diesel Encyc, (one is shown there), I modified mine to represent a PRR version, and its up and running today on the layout with very little trouble. If you have one you want to sell, let me know. I might take it off your hands, if it runs. I remember they listed a EMD transfer switcher ( the double BL2) and a Baldwin TS, obviously the one you have. Unfortunately , I have only a bare shell. Called the person in charge when I made the purchase, I remember I was under the impression he did not know what he was selling... he had no even an idea what drive components might fit. BTW, I built a DT2000 from a Stewart AS 616 kit - hoods are a little long , could have shortened them but like it this way and as it is lettered for my private line thats ok. Plan to do another one with EMD switcher hoods , C&EI style This doesn't really look (to me) to be any copy of any brass model. More to the point, it is a bastardization of 2 Athearn S-12s hoods, with a U-33 cab sandwiched in between. Unlike all of the other body castings, this one is not resin, but good old hard plastic (Athearn RTR grade). The cab to me is the sore spot, but I've managed to live with it. With PRR Brunswick green paint, it isn't all that noticable (unless you consider that the U33 and its cab were light years into the future of the Center Cab Transfer loco, which represents late 40s or early 50s). I do have one DL-109 (actually, the DL-110) B unit, unpowered. Still haven't gotten around to painting and lettering it, but one of these days. Again, none on the HO plastic market, so this one will have to do. Again, Trainco Hobbytown resin casting. I found that Hallmark DL109/110 sets show up regularly at eBay and sell as low as $120 - the nose of the A unit looks like an anteater but the B unit is nice. Also, same line of trains, have a BP-20 A and B (passenger sharks, PRR). Nice runners, but demanding extremely wide curves. They have the rear- mounted open framed Pittman motors, which I don't particularly care for, nor do I like the rear-mount. Center mount would be better, since the underbody drive shafts cause problems on curves with these monsters. Bought a BP20 AB set from Canada , they were done very well - this was the company that did the resin Turbine shortly before the Lionel came out... Miracle Castings ... bodys were straight, well detailed, bought them as "rejects" for $ 65 ? apiece but they were better than all the other boidys mentioned before. No drive but a resin frame that was supposed to accept Athearn components; I did not like it and used the lengthened PA frames that came with the Trainstuff bodies. In addition, have 2 of Traincos (Hobbytowns) FL-9s. Nicely done resin castings, and they run very, very well. Again, considering the FL-9 has never been produced in RTR form for the HO mass market. Never have seen them ... but I remember some time ago somebody sold resin  NH EP5 bodies; "Branford Hobbies" comes to my mind... maybe some connection? By todays detailing and tooling standards, these castings are most likely regarded as rude and crude, but there was a time (and still is), where they will HAVE TO DO, since no other models of these engines exist in the mass markets today, at least not yet. Till then, I will hang on to them. I learned , the hard way, that if I start with a bad resin body, until I have rectified all its shortcomings, iadapted an acceptable drive, added details, painted it , I am in the price range of used brass - or some manufacturer has come up with a mass produced model as it happened with the DL109. I would be willing to let the BP-20s go if anyone is interested though, as these engines are just too big, even for my 7-foot wide curves.... Both units are powered, and in original boxes. Keep well and laugh a little, Ok - can already laugh about this *now*,  had smoke coming out of my ears when I unpacked the DLs  five ? years ago... If possible I would like to see a picture of your Transfer Switcher. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5137	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?

Hi Gerold: I will see if I can get wife to take a digital pic of the Center Cab Transfer loco for you. I'm happy with it, so will hang onto it for awhile, or at least until one shows up that is made for the mass market in HO. With recession blues, that isn't likely to happen any time soon though. My original intent was to use 2 of the Athearn S-12s (Baldwins) to make a Center Cab loco, but then, these Hobbytowns came along, and pretty well obviated that requirement. Still have the S-12 components, but so far, never used them. Making the correct cab would have been the most difficult, because the S-12 cab is too small (too short). Never saw the spliced BL-2s you mentioned for the Center Cab variant. The drive system that Trainco used on their finished, but undecorated models was pretty decent by and large, but was severely dated back to 1950s technology (open frame motors, no flywheels, large under- carriage square brass drive shafts, etc). Stay well, Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5138	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Wanted: HO

List: Anyone have an old Tyco-era GG-1 that they need or want to get rid of? Looking for one, as a possible candidate for modifying to become a streamlined P5a (PRR). Tried using a full-sized GG-1, but it was a no go. Appreciate any thoughts, comments, Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5139	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Can't help--but I can visualize what you're looking  for.  How about an R-1?  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 3:01 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO List: Anyone have an old Tyco-era GG-1 that they need or want to get rid of? Looking for one, as a possible candidate for modifying to become a streamlined P5a (PRR). Tried using a full-sized GG-1, but it was a no go. Appreciate any thoughts, comments, Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5140	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars

Hello Ray: I don't participate too much but I read almost post here. I guess I am somewhat low on the learning curve. I really appreciate people like you who share their knowledge. I see your name come up often in the Greenberg "Guide to Athearn Trains". But, I just have to ask; what is the attraction to Kar-Line Trains? I have several of them and I also like them. However, what do you see in them? I recall the first one I purchased, It was #31 a 40' Boston & Albany box car. I saw it in a hobby shop in Rutland VT. for $20. I thought it was too expensive. I also thought afterward that I will not see another one. A year later I was back to the shop and it was still there for the same price. I bought it and haven't regretted it. I have since then purchased a few more. Best regards, Al Campbell Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5141	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Hi: The R-1 appearance escapes me at the moment. Got a pic? If so, I might be interested..... Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5142	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

I saw a photo once or twice--basically the streamlined body on a 4-8-4 chassis--it was the alternative design to the GG-1.   On the steam side--what if the War Production Board had sent some of those UP-designed 4-6-6-4's to the PRR--what might a GG-2 have looked like?  I picture a big cast-steel pilot, cab like the J-1, "Coast-to-Coast tender, and of course, a Keystone in place of the shield on the smokebox door. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO Hi: The R-1 appearance escapes me at the moment. Got a pic? If so, I might be interested..... Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5143	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

GJ: I found a pic of the R-1 in the book "The Pennsylvania RR Under Wire", page 99 (Kalmbach). Sort of looks like a baby GG-1, a 2-D-2 unit # 4800. Perhaps one of the off-scale old Penn Line GG-1s might do for that model, if any still survive. As I recall, the Penn Line GG-1s were a bit shorter than full HO scale, and maybe the Varney Gs were too. Well, I'd still like to have a streamlined P-5a. Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5144	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars

The big thing about Kar-Line was they offered lettering schemes that no one else was doing.  They also came with decent trucks and Kadee couplers installed.  When they came out in the 70;s, they weren't all that expensive, around Five bucks when a stock Athearn car was around Three.  I have a few yet.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: madchemep2@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Cc: al@... Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:20 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: life like / varney cars Hello Ray: I don't participate too much but I read almost post here. I guess I am somewhat low on the learning curve. I really appreciate people like you who share their knowledge. I see your name come up often in the Greenberg "Guide to Athearn Trains". But, I just have to ask; what is the attraction to Kar-Line Trains? I have several of them and I also like them. However, what do you see in them? I recall the first one I purchased, It was #31 a 40' Boston & Albany box car. I saw it in a hobby shop in Rutland VT. for $20. I thought it was too expensive. I also thought afterward that I will not see another one. A year later I was back to the shop and it was still there for the same price. I bought it and haven't regretted it. I have since then purchased a few more. Best regards, Al Campbell

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5145	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: PRR R1 4899

Forgive me but you got my mind racing on this loco . I went to NE railfan and looked it up . You are right original # was 4800 . While thinking about the R1 why not P5 a's , they are all beautiful brutes but the P5 is a little smaller . I know one man's opinion , good luck with your project . HH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5146	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: PRR R1 4899

Hi HH: I was hoping to locate an old Tyco version of their GG-1 which is an abortion of a real GG-1. The intent was to convert it to a P5a, since it was shorter and somewhat streamlined. It might be tough to do the P5 though - no body parts, although I do have several old run MDC/Roundhouse boxcab body shells that could be cut down somewhat.....(I was saving those for a possible DD-1 later on). Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5147	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

The advice to perhaps let these old HO cast metal sprung trucks just lie is, regrettably, a pretty good one. Almost none of them can be made to roll worth a darn- if only because the quality of construction and casting was so poor that the overall geometry is most often very unstable with the side frames bowing out and not staying at 90º angles with the truck bolster. The Athearns were the very worst, but none of the rest, MDC, Ulrich, or Silver Streak, excluded. Even the trucks we always thought best, Central Valley, do not hold up well under the scrutiny of comparitive hindsight. These trucks were built to a price and not as precision instruments. Zinc rot is a big problem, especially with the Silver Streak trucks. I have tried every trick known to man to make any and all of these trucks roll decently, especially by custom fitting Reboxx wheels of various axle lengths. Sometimes this works, but almost never sufficiently well to make the effort worthwhile. What do I now do? For those old cars that need these old trucks, I clean them up if I can, make them run as well as possible, and I place the cars on the shelf for occasional exhibit operation. For other old cars that I really want to run day to day, I will install Accurail trucks, but also bag and tag the original trucks- marked ready for reinstallation at some future date. The CV trucks have non-standard tapered bearing holes of varying depths and degree of angularity. Like with virtually all cast truck side frames, the "tip of the cone" in the hole is actually not a tip at all but actually rounded over to various degrees. Almost nothing can be done to improve the poor rolling characteristics. Denny Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5148	From: erieberk	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: life like / varney cars

Hi Al, Glad you've been "listening" in and have been picking up some info. There are many members here with a wealth of knowledge on the old stuff -- always fun to talk about. As for myself, I enjoy sharing what I know; there's so much to this part of the hobby. No one member can know everything and that's part of what makes it worthwhile for everyone who brings all these tid-bits out in the open. Feel free to post more often if you have any other questions. Just what you've described in your post is part of what makes Kar Line so attractive. When was the last time you saw Athearn or any other manufacturer produce a Boston & Albany box car? Kar Line's draw was that they produced cars in so many different short line and regional road names, and affiliate roads of major haulers (which no one else ever did), like the B&A (NYC) you mention. For instance, which other manufacturer do you know that offered a Rutland RR (Route of the Wippet) car -- besides Binkley Models way back when? The other attraction for me is the fine finish on these cars. To me, they really look like a steel box car rather than plastic (no offense to plastic collectors). Their paint jobs are next to none. I just like the looks of them, and unlike some other modelers, I wouldn't think of weathering them any more than I would weather a mint Globe metal car. The reasons may be different for me, between the two manufacturers, but the outcome (overall look on my layout) is the same. I won't weather a Kar Line car as I don't want to alter what I feel is a good looking car the way it looks (I happen to enjoy the fresh look of my equipment). I won't weather a metal Globe, Athearn or any other vintage car, as I believe it will degrade the value of them -- not everybody likes weathering. The value in vintage cars is in how "mint" they are, with untouched kits holding the highest value, along with professionally done built-ups (unweathered). But then, each to his own, that what this hobby is all about. We do what we prefer on our own RR's. I can enjoy seeing weathered cars on other layouts though, as it can add to the realism, but I'm not concerned about that for myself. The $20 you paid does seem a little high for me, but then I bought mine some time back, paying no more the around $10 for them. Might be why it was still there went you went back. Probably still worth it today though, especially if the car happens to be "your" railroad. That's where the extra value of the car comes in. There are Kar-Lines seen on eBay going for more. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, madchemep2@... wrote: > > Hello Ray: I don't participate too much but I read almost post here. I guess > I am somewhat low on the learning curve. I really appreciate people like you > who share their knowledge. I see your name come up often in the Greenberg > "Guide to Athearn Trains". But, I just have to ask; what is the attraction to > Kar-Line Trains? I have several of them and I also like them. However, what do > you see in them? I recall the first one I purchased, It was #31 a 40' Boston > & Albany box car. I saw it in a hobby shop in Rutland VT. for $20. I thought > it was too expensive. I also thought afterward that I will not see another > one. A year later I was back to the shop and it was still there for the same > price. I bought it and haven't regretted it. I have since then purchased a few > more. Best regards, Al Campbell > > > > **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy? NCID=aolcmp003000000025 > 48) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5149	From: erieberk	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

It is too bad that no American manufacturer ever produced a modified P-5 model, I think they've underestimated the popularity of it. Good thinking on trying to use one of the factory-shortend GG-1 models such as Penn Line (yes, they were shorter than the prototype), but they're still too long. Varney used the same dies. Problem is, it wouldn't be too easy to cut and splice the noses because of the tapers down the sides of them. Best bet (lots of luck in finding one) would be to use one of the Varney cast aluminum pre-War GG-1's; they were much shorter than the post-War Penn Line and Varney G's and sat on a 4-8-4 chassis (used on the consolidation), but they're scarce as hen's teeth. Now, if some enterprising collector (who has one) would only make a mold of it they'd make a mint. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > GJ: > > I found a pic of the R-1 in the book "The Pennsylvania RR Under Wire", > page 99 (Kalmbach). Sort of looks like a baby GG-1, a 2-D-2 unit # 4800. > > Perhaps one of the off-scale old Penn Line GG-1s might do for that model, > if any still survive. As I recall, the Penn Line GG-1s were a bit shorter > than full HO scale, and maybe the Varney Gs were too. > > Well, I'd still like to have a streamlined P-5a. > > Dave F > > > > ************** > Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. > > (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy? NCID=aolcmp003000000025 > 48) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5150	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/6/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

I think the Varney WAS the Penn Line.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO GJ: I found a pic of the R-1 in the book "The Pennsylvania RR Under Wire", page 99 (Kalmbach). Sort of looks like a baby GG-1, a 2-D-2 unit # 4800. Perhaps one of the off-scale old Penn Line GG-1s might do for that model, if any still survive. As I recall, the Penn Line GG-1s were a bit shorter than full HO scale, and maybe the Varney Gs were too. Well, I'd still like to have a streamlined P-5a. Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5151	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my head for any of the big electrics.  GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, Bi-Polars--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO Hi: The R-1 appearance escapes me at the moment. Got a pic? If so, I might be interested..... Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5152	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Denny--last week you were looking for info re Max Gray and US Hobbies O Scale for the Sacto museum. I found 2 binders of the newsletters--are you still interested in borrowing them? Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:36 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks The advice to perhaps let these old HO cast metal sprung trucks just lie is, regrettably, a pretty good one. Almost none of them can be made to roll worth a darn- if only because the quality of construction and casting was so poor that the overall geometry is most often very unstable with the side frames bowing out and not staying at 90º angles with the truck bolster. The Athearns were the very worst, but none of the rest, MDC, Ulrich, or Silver Streak, excluded. Even the trucks we always thought best, Central Valley, do not hold up well under the scrutiny of comparitive hindsight. These trucks were built to a price and not as precision instruments. Zinc rot is a big problem, especially with the Silver Streak trucks. I have tried every trick known to man to make any and all of these trucks roll decently, especially by custom fitting Reboxx wheels of various axle lengths. Sometimes this works, but almost never sufficiently well to make the effort worthwhile. What do I now do? For those old cars that need these old trucks, I clean them up if I can, make them run as well as possible, and I place the cars on the shelf for occasional exhibit operation. For other old cars that I really want to run day to day, I will install Accurail trucks, but also bag and tag the original trucks- marked ready for reinstallation at some future date. The CV trucks have non-standard tapered bearing holes of varying depths and degree of angularity. Like with virtually all cast truck side frames, the "tip of the cone" in the hole is actually not a tip at all but actually rounded over to various degrees. Almost nothing can be done to improve the poor rolling characteristics. Denny Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5153	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, Bi-Polars--gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: WK2SHR@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar........... John (last name withheld to protect the sender)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5154	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

> > > > Posted by: "Glenn476" glenn476@... > <mailto:glenn476@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Old%20Trucks> > glennk28 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/glennk28> > > > Thu Feb 7, 2008 12:20 am (PST) > > Denny--last week you were looking for info re Max Gray and US Hobbies O > Scale for the Sacto museum. I found 2 binders of the newsletters- > -are you > still interested in borrowing them? Glenn If there is information on HO production I have some interest. How many of the 1898 Mikados were produced? Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5155	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Hi Denny, This is the first I heard about issues with CV trucks.  I have a few of them, probably about a couple of dozen and they seem to have the least problems.  I haven't worried about em much in the past, because I felt that if the wheelsets wore out or fell apart, I could easily replace them with newer Kadee's or P2K's.  So I am guessing that what you are saying is that the CV trucks have different geometry that would not allow the use of newer wheelsets?  Not that I anticipate any problems, but it would be good to know.  So far, I have never needed to remove wheelsets from CV's and never had any come undone.  For sure I have had to fuss with Roundhouse, Athearn, and Silver Streak, but never CV's or Kadee's. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: danspach@... Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:36:55 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks The advice to perhaps let these old HO cast metal sprung trucks just lie is, regrettably, a pretty good one. Almost none of them can be made to roll worth a darn- if only because the quality of construction and casting was so poor that the overall geometry is most often very unstable with the side frames bowing out and not staying at 90º angles with the truck bolster. The Athearns were the very worst, but none of the rest, MDC, Ulrich, or Silver Streak, excluded. Even the trucks we always thought best, Central Valley, do not hold up well under the scrutiny of comparitive hindsight. These trucks were built to a price and not as precision instruments. Zinc rot is a big problem, especially with the Silver Streak trucks. I have tried every trick known to man to make any and all of these trucks roll decently, especially by custom fitting Reboxx wheels of various axle lengths. Sometimes this works, but almost never sufficiently well to make the effort worthwhile. What do I now do? For those old cars that need these old trucks, I clean them up if I can, make them run as well as possible, and I place the cars on the shelf for occasional exhibit operation. For other old cars that I really want to run day to day, I will install Accurail trucks, but also bag and tag the original trucks- marked ready for reinstallation at some future date. The CV trucks have non-standard tapered bearing holes of varying depths and degree of angularity. Like with virtually all cast truck side frames, the "tip of the cone" in the hole is actually not a tip at all but actually rounded over to various degrees. Almost nothing can be done to improve the poor rolling characteristics. Denny Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5156	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Can't forget some of those Varney sprung trucks- seems every other pair I get has had issues with the sideframes coming apart from the bolster. I usually replace them as soon as I have a car that has 'em, with Kadee trucks, to be on the safe side. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > > Hi Denny, > > This is the first I heard about issues with CV trucks. I have a few of them, probably about a couple of dozen and they seem to have the least problems. I haven't worried about em much in the past, because I felt that if the wheelsets wore out or fell apart, I could easily replace them with newer Kadee's or P2K's. So I am guessing that what you are saying is that the CV trucks have different geometry that would not allow the use of newer wheelsets? Not that I anticipate any problems, but it would be good to know. So far, I have never needed to remove wheelsets from CV's and never had any come undone. For sure I have had to fuss with Roundhouse, Athearn, and Silver Streak, but never CV's or Kadee's. > > Regards, Vic Bitleris > Raleigh, NC > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: danspach@... > Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:36:55 -0800 > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks ______________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5157	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar........... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5158	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

GJ:   Frateschi (Brazil) makes a nice EF-3 type electric loco in HO (DC) that could be a NH or Little Joe prototype. I have 2, love em....   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5159	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5160	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Hi Ray:   The problem with the model railroad industry and hobby today for the most part is that heavy electric engines have been sorely neglected in their entirety. A few have been made, but not enough, considering there were as many variations of electrics as there were diesels (and that doesn't enough begin to address MU electric passenger trains).   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5161	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

I don't know that MG/USH did any "1898 Mikados" in any scale. Denny is a long-time acquaintance who is affiliated with the Calif. State RR Museum so I would loan things to him that I might not otherwise let out of here. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard R Garner" <cascaderail@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:45 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > >> >> >> Posted by: "Glenn476" glenn476@... >> <mailto:glenn476@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Old%20Trucks> >> glennk28 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/glennk28> >> >> >> Thu Feb 7, 2008 12:20 am (PST) >> >> Denny--last week you were looking for info re Max Gray and US Hobbies O >> Scale for the Sacto museum. I found 2 binders of the newsletters- >> -are you >> still interested in borrowing them? Glenn > > > If there is information on HO production I have some interest. > > How many of the 1898 Mikados were produced? > > Howard Garner > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5162	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?

Glenn:   Branford Hobbies specialized in New Haven cast resin bodies and drives (at exhorbitant prices).   Another one was Imperial Hobby Productions, who also offers FL-9s at "reasonable" prices, along with lots of other hard-to-get and oddball castings for electrics.   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5163	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

There are enough of the old, longer GG-1 shells around to shorten-up, not too hard to get from the various swap meets. That would make such an interesting project, that much easier...... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Feb 7, 2008, at 1:36 AM, erieberk wrote: > It is too bad that no American manufacturer ever produced a modified > P-5 model, I think they've underestimated the popularity of it. Good > thinking on trying to use one of the factory-shortend GG-1 models > such as Penn Line (yes, they were shorter than the prototype), but > they're still too long. Varney used the same dies. Problem is, it > wouldn't be too easy to cut and splice the noses because of the > tapers down the sides of them. Best bet (lots of luck in finding > one) would be to use one of the Varney cast aluminum pre-War GG-1's; > they were much shorter than the post-War Penn Line and Varney G's and > sat on a 4-8-4 chassis (used on the consolidation), but they're > scarce as hen's teeth. Now, if some enterprising collector (who has > one) would only make a mold of it they'd make a mint. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: >> >> GJ: >> >> I found a pic of the R-1 in the book "The Pennsylvania RR Under > Wire", >> page 99 (Kalmbach). Sort of looks like a baby GG-1, a 2-D-2 unit # > 4800. >> >> Perhaps one of the off-scale old Penn Line GG-1s might do for that > model, >> if any still survive. As I recall, the Penn Line GG-1s were a bit > shorter >> than full HO scale, and maybe the Varney Gs were too. >> >> Well, I'd still like to have a streamlined P-5a.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5164	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Attachments : erieberk wrote: > It is too bad that no American manufacturer ever produced a modified > P-5 model, I think they've underestimated the popularity of it. Good > thinking on trying to use one of the factory-shortend GG-1 models > such as Penn Line (yes, they were shorter than the prototype), but > they're still too long. Varney used the same dies. Problem is, it > wouldn't be too easy to cut and splice the noses because of the > tapers down the sides of them. Best bet (lots of luck in finding > one) would be to use one of the Varney cast aluminum pre-War GG-1's; > they were much shorter than the post-War Penn Line and Varney G's and > sat on a 4-8-4 chassis (used on the consolidation), but they're > scarce as hen's teeth. Now, if some enterprising collector (who has > one) would only make a mold of it they'd make a mint. Ray > > I have an shorty body , not sure if its aluminum or white metal -- very thin walls and smooth interior surfaces. Came on two short GG1 trucks. I intend to put the body on a orphan International P5 drive. Pic attached, I would appreciate any help identifying her. The pictures somehow have turned blue, its unpainted bright silver. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5165	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

I don't know about the NH, but Little Joe, yes--that would be logical that a Brazilian company would make it--that's where a quarter of the Joes went  (five to the Paulista Railway in Brazil, three to the South Shore, and the other twelve to the Milwaukee.  Coincidence, I have one of my two NWSL Joes in the paint booth now. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO GJ:   Frateschi (Brazil) makes a nice EF-3 type electric loco in HO (DC) that could be a NH or Little Joe prototype. I have 2, love em....   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5166	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Basically, they were "Electric Big Boys".  ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO GJ:   Frateschi (Brazil) makes a nice EF-3 type electric loco in HO (DC) that could be a NH or Little Joe prototype. I have 2, love em....   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5167	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5168	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown resin shells?

I have resigned myself to buying bra$$ if I'm going to pay exorbitant prices.  And then, sometimes I manage to be in the right place at the right time and get them relatively cheap.  ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbytown resin shells? Glenn:   Branford Hobbies specialized in New Haven cast resin bodies and drives (at exhorbitant prices).   Another one was Imperial Hobby Productions, who also offers FL-9s at "reasonable" prices, along with lots of other hard-to-get and oddball castings for electrics.   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5169	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

That is NICE!!! So, where can I find a few of the GG-1 shells ??? Does anyone know if they are in the MS train sim program???? I have a way of getting them out of the game and into model templates. Looks like I'm hitting the next few swap meets....... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Feb 7, 2008, at 2:49 PM, Gerold Eckl wrote: > erieberk wrote: >> It is too bad that no American manufacturer ever produced a modified >> P-5 model, I think they've underestimated the popularity of it. Good >> thinking on trying to use one of the factory-shortend GG-1 models >> such as Penn Line (yes, they were shorter than the prototype), but >> they're still too long. Varney used the same dies. Problem is, it >> wouldn't be too easy to cut and splice the noses because of the >> tapers down the sides of them. Best bet (lots of luck in finding >> one) would be to use one of the Varney cast aluminum pre-War GG-1's; >> they were much shorter than the post-War Penn Line and Varney G's and >> sat on a 4-8-4 chassis (used on the consolidation), but they're >> scarce as hen's teeth. Now, if some enterprising collector (who has >> one) would only make a mold of it they'd make a mint. Ray >> >> > I have an shorty body , not sure if its aluminum or white metal -- > very > thin walls and smooth interior surfaces. Came on two short GG1 trucks. > I intend to put the body on a orphan International P5 drive. Pic > attached, I would appreciate any help identifying her. The pictures > somehow have turned blue, its unpainted bright silver.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5170	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

DD-3?? longer noses would be about right for the P-5a ("Electric Hudson") ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > erieberk wrote: >> It is too bad that no American manufacturer ever produced a modified >> P-5 model, I think they've underestimated the popularity of it. Good >> thinking on trying to use one of the factory-shortend GG-1 models >> such as Penn Line (yes, they were shorter than the prototype), but >> they're still too long. Varney used the same dies. Problem is, it >> wouldn't be too easy to cut and splice the noses because of the >> tapers down the sides of them. Best bet (lots of luck in finding >> one) would be to use one of the Varney cast aluminum pre-War GG-1's; >> they were much shorter than the post-War Penn Line and Varney G's and >> sat on a 4-8-4 chassis (used on the consolidation), but they're >> scarce as hen's teeth. Now, if some enterprising collector (who has >> one) would only make a mold of it they'd make a mint. Ray >> >> > I have an shorty body , not sure if its aluminum or white metal -- very > thin walls and smooth interior surfaces. Came on two short GG1 trucks. > I intend to put the body on a orphan International P5 drive. Pic > attached, I would appreciate any help identifying her. The pictures > somehow have turned blue, its unpainted bright silver. > > Gerold > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5171	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation.. He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5172	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation--built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation.. He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5173	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5174	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

GJ:   And most of the Paulista Railway Little Joes are sitting in a scrap yard. We had a guy on the HOrailroad list who used to send pix of them rotting away.....   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5175	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Hi Mike:   The standard sized GG-1 shells have noses that are far too long for use as a possible P5a.   Given the length and contours of the current full sized Gs, foreshortening them is not really an option in order to make the P5a.   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5176	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

I’m using CV Roller Bearing trucks under two Athearn metal Timken special boxcars.  I find the rolling quality comparable to Kadees, but beware of shorts even if CV’s insulated wheels are all on the same side.  The problem is that current can reach the car from the locomotive or another car through the metal couplers.  I like the CV trucks and got these two pair of roller bearings “free” when I discovered them in the boxes with vintage Athearn freightcars I had purchased.  Even so, I will eventually change them out to Kadee RBs which have insulated wheels on both sides.                                                                                                                                                     Lou On 2/7/08 9:59 AM, "Victor Bitleris" <bitlerisvj@...> wrote:     Hi Denny, This is the first I heard about issues with CV trucks.  I have a few of them, probably about a couple of dozen and they seem to have the least problems.  I haven't worried about em much in the past, because I felt that if the wheelsets wore out or fell apart, I could easily replace them with newer Kadee's or P2K's.  So I am guessing that what you are saying is that the CV trucks have different geometry that would not allow the use of newer wheelsets?  Not that I anticipate any problems, but it would be good to know.  So far, I have never needed to remove wheelsets from CV's and never had any come undone.  For sure I have had to fuss with Roundhouse, Athearn, and Silver Streak, but never CV's or Kadee's. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: danspach@... Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:36:55 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks       The advice to perhaps let these old HO cast metal sprung trucks just lie is, regrettably, a pretty good one. Almost none of them can be made to roll worth a darn- if only because the quality of construction and casting was so poor that the overall geometry is most often very unstable with the side frames bowing out and not staying at 90º angles with the truck bolster. The Athearns were the very worst, but none of the rest, MDC, Ulrich, or Silver Streak, excluded. Even the trucks we always thought best, Central Valley, do not hold up well under the scrutiny of comparitive hindsight. These trucks were built to a price and not  as precision instruments. Zinc rot is a big problem, especially with the Silver Streak trucks. I have tried every trick known to man to make any and all of these trucks roll decently, especially by custom fitting Reboxx wheels of various axle lengths. Sometimes this works, but almost never sufficiently well to make the effort worthwhile. What do I now do?  For those old cars that need these old trucks, I clean them up if I can, make them run as well as possible, and I place the cars on the shelf for occasional exhibit operation.  For other old cars that I really want to run day to day, I will install Accurail trucks, but also bag and tag the original trucks- marked ready for reinstallation at some future date. The CV trucks have non-standard tapered bearing holes of varying depths and degree of angularity. Like with virtually all cast truck side frames, the "tip of the cone" in the hole is actually not a tip at all but  actually rounded over to various degrees. Almost nothing can be done to improve the poor rolling characteristics. Denny Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5177	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Yeah, he did.  I have one of them-they were the “Russian” style.  Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:59 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   I don't know that MG/USH did any "1898 Mikados" in any scale. Denny is a long-time acquaintance who is affiliated with the Calif. State RR Museum so I would loan things to him that I might not otherwise let out of here. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard R Garner" <cascaderail@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:45 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > >> >> >> Posted by: "Glenn476" glenn476@... >> <mailto:glenn476@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Old%20Trucks> >> glennk28 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/glennk28> >> >> >> Thu Feb 7, 2008 12:20 am (PST) >> >> Denny--last week you were looking for info re Max Gray and US Hobbies O >> Scale for the Sacto museum. I found 2 binders of the newsletters- >> -are you >> still interested in borrowing them? Glenn > > > If there is information on HO production I have some interest. > > How many of the 1898 Mikados were produced? > > Howard Garner > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5178	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Hi Mike:   You need GG-1 shells? Got 2 old GG-1s for immediate sale, if you want them. Both run, both are Rivarossi, just excess to my needs here. You can have them cheap....(plus a little for postage).   Write back if you are interested.   Dave F   Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5179	From: louiskgreiff	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Metal Freight Car of Unknown Manufacture

I picked up several metal freightcars at a Rochester, NY train meet last weekend, including one I can't identify. It's an orange-colored Great Northern car, number 10094; reporting marks on the left, "See America First/Glacier National Park" mountain goat herald on the right, all in black lettering, not dark green. The steps are definitely International, but could be add ons. The underframe is a soft metal casting with no identifying marks on it (also possibly International). The doors are brass with one large tack board near the middle and one small tack board near the bottom. International used cast white metal doors on their boxcars. Construction is similar to Athearn first generation--metal roof, ends, and sides built around a wooden floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof. Roofwalk is not cast but either brass or aluminum, and held down with four brads. Each side is fastened to the car floor with brads nailed through square shaped tabs. International cars didn't have side tabs that attached to the car floor. It's possible that this car is a hybrid, but maybe not. If the description sounds familiar to anyone let me know. The car sides and number are probably the main clues to the identity of this item.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5180	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

You'll have to make some horizontal cuts to free parts of the sides, than bend them to fit. Followed by a bit of filling and blending of the mod'ed transition horizontal surfaces.......... perhaps with sheet styrene overlays to cover the new gaps. Quite like our model car cousins do......... I was thinking of never built, but still proposed 30's diesels when I looked at that shortened model GG-1 image. And if it's mainly a case of replacing the upper bulge of the shortened ends to be more correct, that's something many modelers can readily do with sheet styrene. Much like you see done here for the roof....... http://archive.mylargescale.com/articles/masterclass/carterbros/images/Const-66.jpg Perhaps by using thin slices of the plastic body as the formers........ perhaps with just a bit removed from the center and then re-joined to make slightly narrower....... Or make your own formers by tracing a body slice and cut out in sheet styrene. And doesn't look like you can do the same on a base of old plastic F7 shells if the nose curve is the tight shape ??? I should get up and do that with some HO PA-1's I have here and a bunch of old F7 Athearn bodies that are just lying around..... I can see making the main cab from sections of GG-1 scale drawings and sheet styrene.......... Extending the curve of the nose back on the body with styrene formers and building the upper structure bulge on top of that............ Dang, that sounds like FUN !!!! Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Feb 7, 2008, at 9:43 PM, WK2SHR@... wrote: Hi Mike:   The standard sized GG-1 shells have noses that are far too long for use as a possible P5a.   Given the length and contours of the current full sized Gs, foreshortening them is not really an option in order to make the P5a.   Dave F

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5181	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Central Valley freight trucks: I reviewed my data, and on my roll tester, the average number of rolls that a good clean CV truck with original wheels could attain was between 7 or 8, which was "Poor". The greatest number of consistent rolls that I could coax out of them with a wide variety of tested Reboxx wheel replacements was 10-11 rolls ("Acceptable") with 1.020" axles; although in a single truck I did attain 17-18 rolls with 1.015" axles ("Very Good"). Contrary to information that I might have given earlier in error, the correct ratings that I have used have been the following: Unsatisfactory: 0-5 rolls; Poor: 6-10 rolls; Acceptable 11-15 rolls; Very Good 16-20 rolls; and Superior 21 and up. Like others, I do like CV trucks and I value all of them, even if they do not always run as well as I might wish. FYI, the standard Kadee "Bettendorf" runs no better than the CV (8-10 rolls). However, changing to Reboxx 1.020" wheel sets, the number of rolls increases to a steady 17-18 rolls. Of all the cast metal freight car trucks out there, the Kadee trucks are the best constructed, and they are consistent. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5182	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

WK2SHR@... wrote: > GJ: > > And most of the Paulista Railway Little Joes are sitting in a scrap > yard. We had a guy > on the HOrailroad list who used to send pix of them rotting away..... > > Dave F > > Any chance to see this pictures?? Do you have saved them? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5183	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/7/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile.  I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5184	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

what year?  I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks Yeah, he did.  I have one of them-they were the “Russian” style.  Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:59 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   I don't know that MG/USH did any "1898 Mikados" in any scale. Denny is a long-time acquaintance who is affiliated with the Calif. State RR Museum so I would loan things to him that I might not otherwise let out of here. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard R Garner" <cascaderail@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:45 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > >> >> >> Posted by: "Glenn476" glenn476@... >> <mailto:glenn476@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Old%20Trucks> >> glennk28 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/glennk28> >> >> >> Thu Feb 7, 2008 12:20 am (PST) >> >> Denny--last week you were looking for info re Max Gray and US Hobbies O >> Scale for the Sacto museum. I found 2 binders of the newsletters- >> -are you >> still interested in borrowing them? Glenn > > > If there is information on HO production I have some interest. > > How many of the 1898 Mikados were produced? > > Howard Garner > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5185	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

at least that's better than the Milwaukee units. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > WK2SHR@... wrote: >> GJ: >> >> And most of the Paulista Railway Little Joes are sitting in a scrap >> yard. We had a guy >> on the HOrailroad list who used to send pix of them rotting away..... >> >> Dave F >> >> > Any chance to see this pictures?? Do you have saved them? > > Gerold > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5186	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Hi Glenn,   I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! Later!   Sean   Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile.  I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5187	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Thanks very much for the information Denny.  I doubt it will make much difference on my small layout, but inquiring minds would like to know.  You never know when my layout could grow and I may need to run with more than five or six cars in a consist.  :o) Can you tell us about your roll tester and some specs.  Maybe we can check this out at home and identify and correct trucks with poorly rolling wheelsets. By the way thanks for the info on which Reboxx wheels go with CV and Kadee.  I may have to break down and order some. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: danspach@... Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:31:04 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks Central Valley freight trucks: I reviewed my data, and on my roll tester, the average number of rolls that a good clean CV truck with original wheels could attain was between 7 or 8, which was "Poor". The greatest number of consistent rolls that I could coax out of them with a wide variety of tested Reboxx wheel replacements was 10-11 rolls ("Acceptable" ) with 1.020" axles; although in a single truck I did attain 17-18 rolls with 1.015" axles ("Very Good"). Contrary to information that I might have given earlier in error, the correct ratings that I have used have been the following: Unsatisfactory: 0-5 rolls; Poor: 6-10 rolls; Acceptable 11-15 rolls; Very Good 16-20 rolls; and Superior 21 and up. Like others, I do like CV trucks and I value all of them, even if they do not always run as well as I might wish. FYI, the standard Kadee "Bettendorf" runs no better than the CV (8-10 rolls). However, changing to Reboxx 1.020" wheel sets, the number of rolls increases to a steady 17-18 rolls. Of all the cast metal freight car trucks out there, the Kadee trucks are the best constructed, and they are consistent. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5188	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Garteiser > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > > Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. Jerry Garteiser > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a few more. Howard Garner Pickens, SC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5189	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Gerold: No, I didn't save any pics. These were submitted some months ago, and may still be uploaded in the HOrailroading@yahoogroups photo files. If you are a member of that list, you can retrieve them directly. Dave F ************** Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5190	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Looks to be proportioned a lot like a K-28. What scale and gauge was it? MG was known mainly as an O Scale importer, although he also did some HO. With Japanese RR's mostly meter gauge, I would have almost expected this one to be On3??gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "earlyrail" <cascaderail@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 7:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jerry Garteiser >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM >> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks >> >> >> Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. > Jerry Garteiser >> >> > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. > I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at > www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg > > If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a > few more. > > Howard Garner > Pickens, SC > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5191	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Sorry-meant to say Japanese style (thus the name “Mikado”).  I picked mine up in the mid-‘60’s in a shop in Atlanta GA.  As I recall, it had been in the counter for a couple of years; it was new, but evidently (in Georgia anyway) not a lot of interest in it.  I think I paid around $50-$60 for it.   For that era of brass, it runs fairly decent.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of earlyrail Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:02 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Garteiser > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > > Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. Jerry Garteiser > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a few more. Howard Garner Pickens, SC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5192	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

you sound surprised at its running quality.  Max Gray locos were always real machines.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks Sorry-meant to say Japanese style (thus the name “Mikado”).  I picked mine up in the mid-‘60’s in a shop in Atlanta GA.  As I recall, it had been in the counter for a couple of years; it was new, but evidently (in Georgia anyway) not a lot of interest in it.  I think I paid around $50-$60 for it.   For that era of brass, it runs fairly decent.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of earlyrail Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:02 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Garteiser > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > > Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. Jerry Garteiser > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a few more. Howard Garner Pickens, SC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5193	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

It was (is) my first and only Max Gray loco.  You’re right-his stuff had a great reputation.  Just a comment that a lot of brass of that era was not silky-smooth in the operations department (although most looked very nice).  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   you sound surprised at its running quality.  Max Gray locos were always real machines.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Sorry-meant to say Japanese style (thus the name “Mikado”).  I picked mine up in the mid-‘60’s in a shop in Atlanta GA.  As I recall, it had been in the counter for a couple of years; it was new, but evidently (in Georgia anyway) not a lot of interest in it.  I think I paid around $50-$60 for it.   For that era of brass, it runs fairly decent.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of earlyrail Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:02 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Garteiser > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > > Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. Jerry Garteiser > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a few more. Howard Garner Pickens, SC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5194	From: erieberk	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Freight Car of Unknown Manufacture

Lou, As is always a couple of the main identifying features, yes the car sides and NUMBERS are always what gives them away (if only you know what to look for). Athearn produced GN Orange (metal) in at least 12 different road numbers that I'm aware of for Modelmaster; I have 8 of them. They then sold the over runs under their own (uncataloged) brand. The closest number to yours that is otherwise known is 10090 which both Frank Brua and I have. As has been seen with other Athearn road names, there have been numbers missing (unknown to most collectors) that were still produced but which haven't surfaced yet to the awareness of the public. By this its quite possible that your's is either a Modelmaster or an Athearn; Menzies also marketed GN Orange after acquiring Athearn, as did Park Varieties, using the same numbers (although its anybody's guess if they marketed 10094 (I only have one number in Menzies -- 10347, and two numbers in PV -- 10320 and 10323). International also made a GN orange, which I have, but I never wrote down the car numbers for that collection as they never used more than one number for each road name -- and they were different from Athearn's, etc. Could still be their number as a hybrid, but your description of the square shaped tabs comes back to me now. If your sides had that, you'd spot it right away. Odds are that its one of the former, originally made by Athearn regardless of who marketed it. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "louiskgreiff" <louie113@...> wrote: > > I picked up several metal freightcars at a Rochester, NY train meet last weekend, including > one I can't identify. It's an orange-colored Great Northern car, number 10094; reporting > marks on the left, "See America First/Glacier National Park" mountain goat herald on the > right, all in black lettering, not dark green. The steps are definitely International, but could > be add ons. The underframe is a soft metal casting with no identifying marks on it (also > possibly International). The doors are brass with one large tack board near the middle and > one small tack board near the bottom. International used cast white metal doors on their > boxcars. Construction is similar to Athearn first generation-- metal roof, ends, and sides > built around a wooden floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof. Roofwalk is not cast but either brass > or aluminum, and held down with four brads. Each side is fastened to the car floor with > brads nailed through square shaped tabs. International cars didn't have side tabs that > attached to the car floor. It's possible that this car is a hybrid, but maybe not. If the > description sounds familiar to anyone let me know. The car sides and number are probably > the main clues to the identity of this item. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5195	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Hi Dave,  Yes, how very true; too much shortsightednesss on the part of the manufacturers in considerig heavy electric, besides the PRR GG-1.  Added to the ones already mentioned, Famoco, Schraeder and George Stock also made GG-1's, as if there weren't enough of them.  Luckily, Famoco also made a PRR B-1 electric yard switcher and Schraeder also made a New Haven EP-4, still far from a good assortment of heavy motors.  International however, made a few others (NYC and PRR) INCLUDING the PRR P-5A.  I'd would have liked to see some Virginian or GN heavy motors though.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5196	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Oh, I forgot to mention -- Walthers produced both the PRR MP-54 MU's and the Delawawre Lackawanna & Western MU's, not that this is an awful lot.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5197	From: Bill Daley	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Mr Wetzel, Didn't a fellow, last name Alexander from Yardley PA, also offer a cast Brass GG1 shell?  I believe this Alexander person was a Civil War railroading afficionado and was considered an authority on same.   Just remembered. E.P. Alexander.   Willie Ashleaf     Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5198	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Gerold,  comparing your model with a pic of Varney's from their early catalogs, I'd have to say that unless Varney's is somewhat different from what they illustrate, this is not a Varney.  While Varney has lots of photos of their steam engines, it looks like their shorty pre-War GG-1 is an artwork drawing (although very good - looking very much like a photo).  I don't believe its a photo though, but quite close to one if you didn't look close.  Their shorty GG-1's cab is much longer having 2 doors (and 2 ladders) on each side, with more windows and 2 round port-hole windows between the two doors.  And its a 4-8-4.   Your model is  very close to, but still not the same as International's P-5A., including the much shorter cab, but the IMP cab has only one window (in addition to the door) on each side.(and the chassis is 4-6-4).  I can't say who made yours, but its very close to a P-5A.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5199	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Looked thru my Max Gray bulletins with no mention of it--must have been earlier than 1962.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:54 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks It was (is) my first and only Max Gray loco.  You’re right-his stuff had a great reputation.  Just a comment that a lot of brass of that era was not silky-smooth in the operations department (although most looked very nice).  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   you sound surprised at its running quality.  Max Gray locos were always real machines.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Sorry-meant to say Japanese style (thus the name “Mikado”).  I picked mine up in the mid-‘60’s in a shop in Atlanta GA.  As I recall, it had been in the counter for a couple of years; it was new, but evidently (in Georgia anyway) not a lot of interest in it.  I think I paid around $50-$60 for it.   For that era of brass, it runs fairly decent.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of earlyrail Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:02 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Garteiser > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > > Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. Jerry Garteiser > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a few more. Howard Garner Pickens, SC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5200	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Looks to be proportioned a lot like a K-28. What scale and gauge was it? > MG was known mainly as an O Scale importer, although he also did some HO. > With Japanese RR's mostly meter gauge, I would have almost expected this one > to be On3??gj HO Standard Gauge. Howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5201	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Were they scaled so that the H-0 track equaled meter gauge?   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: earlyrail To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:46 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > > Looks to be proportioned a lot like a K-28. What scale and gauge was it? > MG was known mainly as an O Scale importer, although he also did some HO. > With Japanese RR's mostly meter gauge, I would have almost expected this one > to be On3??gj HO Standard Gauge. Howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5202	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

erieberk@... wrote: > Gerold, comparing your model with a pic of Varney's from their early > catalogs, I'd have to say that unless Varney's is somewhat different > from what they illustrate, this is not a Varney. While Varney has > lots of photos of their steam engines, it looks like their shorty > pre-War GG-1 is an artwork drawing (although very good - looking very > much like a photo). I don't believe its a photo though, but quite > close to one if you didn't look close. Their shorty GG-1's cab is > much longer having 2 doors (and 2 ladders) on each side, with more > windows and 2 round port-hole windows between the two doors. And its > a 4-8-4. > > Your model is very close to, but still not the same as > International's P-5A., including the much shorter cab, but the IMP cab > has only one window (in addition to the door) on each side.(and the > chassis is 4-6-4). I can't say who made yours, but its very close to > a P-5A. Ray Ray, my only reference is Lenahans locomotive Lexicon... it shows a prewar R1 (4-8-4) , bronce casting, with porthole windows as you described previously. It seems the postwar Varney /Penn Line GG1s may be the orgin of my loco... it is not obvious from the pictures, but there is a section missing from the center , only the cab window portion left, and a door scribed into the body sides in the area where the halves are joined. Gerold -- just browsed eBay, there is a Penn Line kit on auction, body details match my shorty body. eBay 170190754991

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5203	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Web says he imported stuff from 1953 thru 1965.  No mention of this Mike in list of stuff he did, so this must have been a short run or maybe he bought some stuff while he was in Japan negotiating his O scale stuff???  Apparently no surviving info.  As to me, I would have not bought it before ’63 as I as a poor college student prior to that, and did not move to Atlanta until 1965.  It was bought from an Atlanta shop on P’Tree St. (yeah, everything in Atlanta is some sort of Peachtree. . . .) near Southern’s North Ave. coach yards.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:27 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Looked thru my Max Gray bulletins with no mention of it--must have been earlier than 1962.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:54 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   It was (is) my first and only Max Gray loco.  You’re right-his stuff had a great reputation.  Just a comment that a lot of brass of that era was not silky-smooth in the operations department (although most looked very nice).  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   you sound surprised at its running quality.  Max Gray locos were always real machines.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Sorry-meant to say Japanese style (thus the name “Mikado”).  I picked mine up in the mid-‘60’s in a shop in Atlanta GA.  As I recall, it had been in the counter for a couple of years; it was new, but evidently (in Georgia anyway) not a lot of interest in it.  I think I paid around $50-$60 for it.   For that era of brass, it runs fairly decent.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of earlyrail Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:02 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Garteiser > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > > Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. Jerry Garteiser > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a few more. Howard Garner Pickens, SC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5204	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

I have an OO scale GG-1 "kit"--I think it's Barr-Nixon--it is a lump of sand-cast bronze in the general shape of a GG-1 with a bunch of smaller lumps for the frames, and such.  This thing is ROUGH!!  a few years ago I did a clinic at a PCR convention titled "Model Railroading in the Bronze Age".  I chided today's super detail freaks by commenting that there was an era when a "super-detailed model" meant it had handrails and rivets.    gj   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Dave,  Yes, how very true; too much shortsightednesss on the part of the manufacturers in considerig heavy electric, besides the PRR GG-1.  Added to the ones already mentioned, Famoco, Schraeder and George Stock also made GG-1's, as if there weren't enough of them.  Luckily, Famoco also made a PRR B-1 electric yard switcher and Schraeder also made a New Haven EP-4, still far from a good assortment of heavy motors.  International however, made a few others (NYC and PRR) INCLUDING the PRR P-5A.  I'd would have liked to see some Virginian or GN heavy motors though.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5205	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Those were really more an extension of their passenger car lines, hardly considered locomotives--but they were electric prototypes.  ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Oh, I forgot to mention -- Walthers produced both the PRR MP-54 MU's and the Delawawre Lackawanna & Western MU's, not that this is an awful lot.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5206	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

I always think of Alexander as an O Scale manufacturer--I think his GG-1 continues today as "House of Duddy".  ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Daley To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Mr Wetzel, Didn't a fellow, last name Alexander from Yardley PA, also offer a cast Brass GG1 shell?  I believe this Alexander person was a Civil War railroading afficionado and was considered an authority on same.   Just remembered. E.P. Alexander.   Willie Ashleaf   Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5207	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

What you describe by Varney sounds like the R-1.  I think their catalog even listed it as such.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Gerold,  comparing your model with a pic of Varney's from their early catalogs, I'd have to say that unless Varney's is somewhat different from what they illustrate, this is not a Varney.  While Varney has lots of photos of their steam engines, it looks like their shorty pre-War GG-1 is an artwork drawing (although very good - looking very much like a photo).  I don't believe its a photo though, but quite close to one if you didn't look close.  Their shorty GG-1's cab is much longer having 2 doors (and 2 ladders) on each side, with more windows and 2 round port-hole windows between the two doors.  And its a 4-8-4.   Your model is  very close to, but still not the same as International's P-5A., including the much shorter cab, but the IMP cab has only one window (in addition to the door) on each side.(and the chassis is 4-6-4).  I can't say who made yours, but its very close to a P-5A.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5208	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Freight Car of Unknown Manufacture

Hi Ray,     Thanks for your comments on the GN metal boxcar.  Am I correct in reading your last paragraph as saying that the car is probably made by Athearn either as its own product or for Modelmaster?  I think you’re saying that the square tabs point in this direction.     You’re right about car numbers surfacing that haven’t been picked up by the guidebooks.  Another  recent acquisition of mine is an Athearn Texaco tank car with reporting marks TCX 205.  The Mallerich listing for Texaco cars omits this number, skipping from 204 to 206.                                                                                                                                                 Lou On 2/8/08 2:43 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Lou,  As is always a couple of the main identifying features, yes the car sides and NUMBERS are always what gives them away (if only you know what to look for).  Athearn produced GN Orange (metal) in at least 12 different road numbers that I'm aware of for Modelmaster; I have 8 of them.  They then sold the over runs under their own (uncataloged) brand.  The closest number to yours that is otherwise known is 10090 which both Frank Brua and I have.  As has been seen with other Athearn road names, there have been numbers missing (unknown to most collectors) that were still produced but which haven't surfaced yet to the awareness of the public.  By this its quite possible that your's is either a Modelmaster or an Athearn; Menzies also marketed GN Orange after acquiring Athearn, as did Park Varieties, using the same numbers (although its anybody's guess if they marketed 10094 (I only have one number in Menzies -- 10347, and two numbers in PV -- 10320 and 10323). International also made a GN orange, which I have, but I never wrote down the car numbers for that collection as they never used more than one number for each road name -- and they were different from Athearn's, etc.  Could still be their number as a hybrid, but your description of the square shaped tabs comes back to me now.  If your sides had that, you'd spot it right away.  Odds are that its one of the former, originally made by Athearn regardless of who marketed it.  Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "louiskgreiff" <louie113@...> wrote: > > I picked up several metal freightcars at a Rochester, NY train meet last weekend, including > one I can't identify.  It's an orange-colored Great Northern car, number 10094; reporting > marks on the left, "See America First/Glacier National Park" mountain goat herald on the > right, all in black lettering, not dark green.  The steps are definitely International, but could > be add ons.  The underframe is a soft metal casting with no identifying marks on it (also > possibly International).  The doors are brass with one large tack board near the middle and > one small tack board near the bottom.  International used cast white metal doors on their > boxcars.  Construction is similar to Athearn first generation-- metal roof, ends, and sides > built around a wooden floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof.  Roofwalk is not cast but either brass > or aluminum, and held down with four brads.  Each side is fastened to the car floor with > brads nailed through square shaped tabs.  International cars didn't have side tabs that > attached to the car floor.   It's possible that this car is a hybrid, but maybe not.  If the > description sounds familiar to anyone let me know.  The car sides and number are probably > the main clues to the identity of this item. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5209	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Max died in May of 1965.  US Hobbies  took over the O Scale line, Balboa took on the HO and On3 production.  As also a poor college student, I used to visit Max's office in Santa Clara and buy parts for my projects. His place was near SP's College Park station, first top north of San Jose for the Commutes.  I was attending San Jose State and living in Redwood City.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:21 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks Web says he imported stuff from 1953 thru 1965.  No mention of this Mike in list of stuff he did, so this must have been a short run or maybe he bought some stuff while he was in Japan negotiating his O scale stuff???  Apparently no surviving info.  As to me, I would have not bought it before ’63 as I as a poor college student prior to that, and did not move to Atlanta until 1965.  It was bought from an Atlanta shop on P’Tree St. (yeah, everything in Atlanta is some sort of Peachtree. . . .) near Southern’s North Ave. coach yards.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:27 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Looked thru my Max Gray bulletins with no mention of it--must have been earlier than 1962.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:54 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   It was (is) my first and only Max Gray loco.  You’re right-his stuff had a great reputation.  Just a comment that a lot of brass of that era was not silky-smooth in the operations department (although most looked very nice).  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   you sound surprised at its running quality.  Max Gray locos were always real machines.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Sorry-meant to say Japanese style (thus the name “Mikado”).  I picked mine up in the mid-‘60’s in a shop in Atlanta GA.  As I recall, it had been in the counter for a couple of years; it was new, but evidently (in Georgia anyway) not a lot of interest in it.  I think I paid around $50-$60 for it.   For that era of brass, it runs fairly decent.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of earlyrail Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:02 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Garteiser > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > > Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. Jerry Garteiser > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a few more. Howard Garner Pickens, SC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5210	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

Hi Glenn and All! I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like?    Thanks, Sean   Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: Hi Glenn,   I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! Later!   Sean   Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile.  I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5211	From: Raymond Lorts Sr	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Is Raymond Your Friend? Please Respond!!

Raymond has added you as a friend Is Raymond your friend? Please respond or Raymond will think you said no :( Click Here to block all emails from myYearbook, 280 Union Square Dr., New Hope, PA 18938 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5212	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Mantua transition tender ?

Hello Glen , Sean . This is one I've never seen before but my guess is to go with Reading RR practice . Either Atlantic/Pacific , or even Consolidations , right ? Scary to have something this rare and not want to mess it up . Hank H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5213	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

I recall reading somewhere his wife was Japanese, and went on trips to Japan with him to help in negotiations (interpreter??).  Obviously, this gave her pretty good knowledge of the business.   Did she somehow play a part in the asset transfer to US Hobbies and Balboa?   Hopefully, someone else in the group can date the HO production.  Were there other HO products?  It sounds like the HO line was “dabbling”, and his real efforts were O scale.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 7:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Max died in May of 1965.  US Hobbies  took over the O Scale line, Balboa took on the HO and On3 production.  As also a poor college student, I used to visit Max's office in Santa Clara and buy parts for my projects. His place was near SP's College Park station, first top north of San Jose for the Commutes.  I was attending San Jose State and living in Redwood City.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:21 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Web says he imported stuff from 1953 thru 1965.  No mention of this Mike in list of stuff he did, so this must have been a short run or maybe he bought some stuff while he was in Japan negotiating his O scale stuff???  Apparently no surviving info.  As to me, I would have not bought it before ’63 as I as a poor college student prior to that, and did not move to Atlanta until 1965.  It was bought from an Atlanta shop on P’Tree St. (yeah, everything in Atlanta is some sort of Peachtree. . . .) near Southern’s North Ave. coach yards.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:27 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Looked thru my Max Gray bulletins with no mention of it--must have been earlier than 1962.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:54 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   It was (is) my first and only Max Gray loco.  You’re right-his stuff had a great reputation.  Just a comment that a lot of brass of that era was not silky-smooth in the operations department (although most looked very nice).  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   you sound surprised at its running quality.  Max Gray locos were always real machines.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Sorry-meant to say Japanese style (thus the name “Mikado”).  I picked mine up in the mid-‘60’s in a shop in Atlanta GA.  As I recall, it had been in the counter for a couple of years; it was new, but evidently (in Georgia anyway) not a lot of interest in it.  I think I paid around $50-$60 for it.   For that era of brass, it runs fairly decent.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of earlyrail Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:02 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Garteiser > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > > Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. Jerry Garteiser > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a few more. Howard Garner Pickens, SC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5214	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Is Raymond Your Friend? Please Respond!!

Raymond, I'd be happy to be train buddies.   However, I am not a joiner.   Happy Railroading!   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5215	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?

Hi Hank!   How goes things on your end?   I was told by the guy I purchased it from for $5 it was a transitional Mantua tender. At the time, I was in Michigan for work. We were surveying in a Lake & State Rwy spur and preparing do design a new #6 switch, curve and rwy crossing for them.   I had purchased a couple of old Varneys, one Pacific and one Mikado from this guy and asked if I could pick them up. He was 2 minutes off of an exit I was passing by on my way home. While I was looking at his collection, he handed me this tender and asked me if I wanted it. I said sure, but I have never seen one like it and wish I knew what the coal bin was to look like so I could duplicate and complete it.   Any ideas?   Sean   Henry Hultgren <long95209@...> wrote: Hello Glen , Sean . This is one I've never seen before but my guess is to go with Reading RR practice . Either Atlantic/Pacific , or even Consolidations , right ? Scary to have something this rare and not want to mess it up . Hank H Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5216	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

I can't seem to find the link  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn and All! I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like?    Thanks, Sean   Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: Hi Glenn,   I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! Later!   Sean   Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile.  I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5217	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

Hi Glenn,   I have them posted on Vintage HO.. just visit the new photos page,,,   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: I can't seem to find the link  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn and All! I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like?    Thanks, Sean   Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Glenn,   I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! Later!   Sean   Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile.  I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5218	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Mantua transition tender ?

Glen ,Sean , I have confirmation from a mutual source that it is Mantua made , if you have to do something , please just put a piece of foam in it with some coal on it ! Hank H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5219	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks (MAx Gray 2-8-2)

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Garteiser" <jerryg@...> wrote: > > Web says he imported stuff from 1953 thru 1965. No mention of this Mike in > list of stuff he did, so this must have been a short run or maybe he bought > some stuff while he was in Japan negotiating his O scale stuff??? The 1898 Mikado was imported in 1962 according to the Brown Book and one add in MR An ebay'er did some checking in another Max Gray list and it was listed aS limited production. According to him the could mean 10 to 100 units. The fact that it did not show in many ads also indicates a limited production I have not been able to locate plans, but do have a copy machine copy of a photo from some magazine. The first American Mikado was the BW&GF (Bismark, Washburn & Great Falls) in Montana, built 1902. I compared the plans in MR Sept 1965, pg 38 with the Max Gray model and they are very close. Wheel base and boiler match. Domes and cab are different. Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5220	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?

Thanks Hank,   The molded in MANTUA in the inside of the tender shell, is definitive proof as well.. I just thought the coal bin would have brass sides or something...I would love to see a picture of a complete one, but from where??   Sean Henry Hultgren <long95209@...> wrote: Glen ,Sean , I have confirmation from a mutual source that it is Mantua made , if you have to do something , please just put a piece of foam in it with some coal on it ! Hank H Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5221	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?

Hi, everyone... I know that I am not a frequent poster... but in this case I will join in. The tender is the correct one, I believe, for the early brass Pacific. I have one of the early versions of the Pacific, mostly complete, that I have been working on, on and off... for what seems like the past several years. Apparently, there are two different versions of the early Reading Pacific, both using this tender. As far as what else it might have been used with, I don't know. You can find instructions for it on the Hoseeker site, under, I think... Reading Pacific 1951 or 1952 release. With all of the shows that I have been to, all of the shops that I have visited... in all of the years that I have been in the hobby, the only one that I have seen like this is the one that I have. Stephen More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5222	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?

Hi Stephen,   Thanks so much, I will look there..   Not bad for a $5 purchase then..   Sean MRLENGAL2U@... wrote: Hi, everyone... I know that I am not a frequent poster... but in this case I will join in. The tender is the correct one, I believe, for the early brass Pacific. I have one of the early versions of the Pacific, mostly complete, that I have been working on, on and off... for what seems like the past several years. Apparently, there are two different versions of the early Reading Pacific, both using this tender. As far as what else it might have been used with, I don't know. You can find instructions for it on the Hoseeker site, under, I think... Reading Pacific 1951 or 1952 release. With all of the shows that I have been to, all of the shops that I have visited... in all of the years that I have been in the hobby, the only one that I have seen like this is the one that I have. Stephen More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5223	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?

The Pacific and Consol I have were both built around 1940--they are older than I am--the builder adapted them both to SP style, with tenders modified to oil. The Pacific's tender is recognizable as Mantua, the Consolidation's is a Vanderbilt. Part of the history of the models. I do have a tender body casting, so if I can find the frame and trucks they would go with the Atlantic. I do not recall the Consol in the postwar catalogs. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Hultgren" <long95209@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua transition tender ? > Hello Glen , Sean . This is one I've never seen before but my guess > is to go with Reading RR practice . Either Atlantic/Pacific , or even > Consolidations , right ? Scary to have something this rare and not > want to mess it up . Hank H > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5224	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/8/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

I think she was--I don't know if US-born or Japan born. Rumors were, though, when Max died that the Japanese would not deal with a woman.  I believe the same occurred when Levon Kemalyan (Kemtron / US Hobbies died.    I think that the HO line was "fall-out" from the O Scale line--as they were almost all the same locos.  So the engineering costs were spread over a wider base.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks I recall reading somewhere his wife was Japanese, and went on trips to Japan with him to help in negotiations (interpreter??).  Obviously, this gave her pretty good knowledge of the business.   Did she somehow play a part in the asset transfer to US Hobbies and Balboa?   Hopefully, someone else in the group can date the HO production.  Were there other HO products?  It sounds like the HO line was “dabbling”, and his real efforts were O scale.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 7:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Max died in May of 1965.  US Hobbies  took over the O Scale line, Balboa took on the HO and On3 production.  As also a poor college student, I used to visit Max's office in Santa Clara and buy parts for my projects. His place was near SP's College Park station, first top north of San Jose for the Commutes.  I was attending San Jose State and living in Redwood City.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:21 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Web says he imported stuff from 1953 thru 1965.  No mention of this Mike in list of stuff he did, so this must have been a short run or maybe he bought some stuff while he was in Japan negotiating his O scale stuff???  Apparently no surviving info.  As to me, I would have not bought it before ’63 as I as a poor college student prior to that, and did not move to Atlanta until 1965.  It was bought from an Atlanta shop on P’Tree St. (yeah, everything in Atlanta is some sort of Peachtree. . . .) near Southern’s North Ave. coach yards.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:27 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Looked thru my Max Gray bulletins with no mention of it--must have been earlier than 1962.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:54 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   It was (is) my first and only Max Gray loco.  You’re right-his stuff had a great reputation.  Just a comment that a lot of brass of that era was not silky-smooth in the operations department (although most looked very nice).  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   you sound surprised at its running quality.  Max Gray locos were always real machines.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   Sorry-meant to say Japanese style (thus the name “Mikado”).  I picked mine up in the mid-‘60’s in a shop in Atlanta GA.  As I recall, it had been in the counter for a couple of years; it was new, but evidently (in Georgia anyway) not a lot of interest in it.  I think I paid around $50-$60 for it.   For that era of brass, it runs fairly decent.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of earlyrail Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:02 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > what year? I'll have to look before I send the stuff to Denny. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Garteiser > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:12 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > > > Yeah, he did. I have one of them-they were the "Russian" style. Jerry Garteiser > > These were the original Japanese versions that gave the name to mikado. I have posted a photo of the 2-8-2 and the box at www.cwrail.com/mg-2-8-2.jpg If anyone has one they want to part with, let me know, I could use a few more. Howard Garner Pickens, SC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5225	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

I hate to say this, but that looks like an ordinary Mantua tender--with the coal bunker cut out.  Any tool marks around the edges of the hole?  Looks to me as though someone cut out the coal pile and planned to either build a brass bin, or an oil tank.  Looks almost like the one on Richard Stokes' Pacific.  That's the sort of tender frame and trucks I need to go with my tender shell.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn,   I have them posted on Vintage HO.. just visit the new photos page,,,   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: I can't seem to find the link  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn and All! I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like?    Thanks, Sean   Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Glenn,   I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! Later!   Sean   Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile.  I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5226	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?

I guess my question would be did it come from the factory with the coal bunker removed?  The one I have has a coal pile cast in where the hole is on Sean's tender.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: MRLENGAL2U@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua transition tender ? Hi, everyone... I know that I am not a frequent poster... but in this case I will join in. The tender is the correct one, I believe, for the early brass Pacific. I have one of the early versions of the Pacific, mostly complete, that I have been working on, on and off... for what seems like the past several years. Apparently, there are two different versions of the early Reading Pacific, both using this tender. As far as what else it might have been used with, I don't know. You can find instructions for it on the Hoseeker site, under, I think... Reading Pacific 1951 or 1952 release. With all of the shows that I have been to, all of the shops that I have visited... in all of the years that I have been in the hobby, the only one that I have seen like this is the one that I have. Stephen More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5227	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Is Raymond Your Friend? Please Respond!!

Please don't respond to these.  Raymond means well, but most of these types of groups are thinly disguised email harvesters for spammers.   Ddon.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY on     ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hultberg To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is Raymond Your Friend? Please Respond!! Raymond, I'd be happy to be train buddies.   However, I am not a joiner.   Happy Railroading!   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5228	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua transition tender ?

Hello Stephen,   Does yours have a cast hole where the coal bin would be to allow placement of a brass bin?   I have another that is all cast, but it was always my belief that the all cast one is a later, rather than earlier issue?   Thanks, Sean MRLENGAL2U@... wrote: Hi, everyone... I know that I am not a frequent poster... but in this case I will join in. The tender is the correct one, I believe, for the early brass Pacific. I have one of the early versions of the Pacific, mostly complete, that I have been working on, on and off... for what seems like the past several years. Apparently, there are two different versions of the early Reading Pacific, both using this tender. As far as what else it might have been used with, I don't know. You can find instructions for it on the Hoseeker site, under, I think... Reading Pacific 1951 or 1952 release. With all of the shows that I have been to, all of the shops that I have visited... in all of the years that I have been in the hobby, the only one that I have seen like this is the one that I have. Stephen More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5229	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

You know Glenn,   I think you are right... I just re-compared it to my cast one... The water tank hatch has a very slight seam between it and the top of the tender and there is what appears to be one small tool mark on the entire outer or inner shell. It is located on top of the deck, as see nin photo 2. It is near the top of the frame, just south and west of the dirst stantion. It appears to be a slofht over-cut rinning length-wise and it terminates before the stantion.   I believe you are right, so now for my next question... what prototype was the modeler seeking?   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: I hate to say this, but that looks like an ordinary Mantua tender--with the coal bunker cut out.  Any tool marks around the edges of the hole?  Looks to me as though someone cut out the coal pile and planned to either build a brass bin, or an oil tank.  Looks almost like the one on Richard Stokes' Pacific.  That's the sort of tender frame and trucks I need to go with my tender shell.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn,   I have them posted on Vintage HO.. just visit the new photos page,,,   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: I can't seem to find the link  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn and All! I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like?    Thanks, Sean   Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Glenn,   I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! Later!   Sean   Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile.  I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5230	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Hi Glenn, Thank you for pointing this out, although I believe most members here are already aware of this, or at least I would hope so. I never intimated the Walthers MU cars were locomotives, as appears you're suggesting, but was replying to Dave F.'s post # 5160 (from 2/7/08 - 1:54:39 PM EST) in which he brings up MU electric passenger trains. Since it seems you may have missed that post, going by the contents of your repy, I'll include it again here below in its entirety (its short): "Hi Ray, The problem with the model railroad industry and hobby today for the most part is that heavy electric engines have been sorely neglected in their entirety. A few have been made, but not enough considering there were as many variations of electrics as there were diesels (and that doesn't enough begin to address MU electric passenger trains). Dave F." Hope this clarifies the matter. Regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Those were really more an extension of their passenger car lines, hardly considered locomotives--but they were electric prototypes. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:28 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > Oh, I forgot to mention -- Walthers produced both the PRR MP-54 MU's and the Delaware Lackawanna & Western MU's, not that this is an awful lot. Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5231	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Willie, Sorry, you got me on that one, unless you mean Alexander Scale Models (made car kits, structures and cast detail parts). Otherwise, I'm not familiar with an Alexander from Yardley. PA. I haven't see where Alexander Scale Models made a GG-1 shell, but this may not be the same manufacturer you're referring to. Hard to ever get to know of the existance of some of these more obscure manufacturers since many didn't advertise much. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Bill Daley <retiredgrouch@...> wrote: > > Mr Wetzel, Didn't a fellow, last name Alexander from Yardley PA, also offer a cast Brass GG1 shell? I believe this Alexander person was a Civil War railroading afficionado and was considered an authority on same. > > Just remembered. E.P. Alexander. > > Willie Ashleaf > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5232	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks (MAx Gray 2-8-2)

Great-appreciate the info!  As always, someone in this group comes up with the answers or fills in the missing link.  Thanks to all!  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of earlyrail Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks (MAx Gray 2-8-2)   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Garteiser" <jerryg@...> wrote: > > Web says he imported stuff from 1953 thru 1965. No mention of this Mike in > list of stuff he did, so this must have been a short run or maybe he bought > some stuff while he was in Japan negotiating his O scale stuff??? The 1898 Mikado was imported in 1962 according to the Brown Book and one add in MR An ebay'er did some checking in another Max Gray list and it was listed aS limited production. According to him the could mean 10 to 100 units. The fact that it did not show in many ads also indicates a limited production I have not been able to locate plans, but do have a copy machine copy of a photo from some magazine. The first American Mikado was the BW&GF (Bismark, Washburn & Great Falls) in Montana, built 1902. I compared the plans in MR Sept 1965, pg 38 with the Max Gray model and they are very close. Wheel base and boiler match. Domes and cab are different. Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5233	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Gerold, No doubt several of the imported brass manufacturers probably made a good variety of Pennsy electrics, including the R-1, the P-5A and of course more of the GG-1. They may have been included in an issue of "The Brass Browser" (Ladd Publications) from 1974, but as I don't have all the issues, I can't know if they were. Since you brought this up though, I'd have to say that the Varney pre-War electric was so much more in line with the PRR R-1 than it was the GG- 1. Varney never actually advertised or promoted this engine as a GG- 1, only saying in their catalog that "its design is adapted from the Pennsylvania GG-1". Other Varney literature describes it as, "Suggested by the Pennsylvania GG-1". In reality though, its so very close to the 1934 built R-1 -- #4899 (ex-4800); yes this motor too was numbered #4800 at one time. A major (actually very minor) difference was that instead of having rectangular windows between the two doors, the Varney model had those round porthole windows. Aside from that, its resemblence to the R-1 is astounding, but has always been known by collectors as the Shorty GG-1. By your description then, athough I didn't notice, you're saying that a section was taken out of the center of your model to shorten it to its present appearance. If that were the case as it seems, then you're probably right in saying your model may well have started out as either a post-War Varney or Penn-Line GG-1, especially if the long hoods (noses) match. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > Ray, my only reference is Lenahans locomotive Lexicon... it shows a > prewar R1 (4-8-4) , bronce casting, with porthole windows as you > described previously. It seems the postwar Varney /Penn Line GG1s may be > the orgin of my loco... it is not obvious from the pictures, but there > is a section missing from the center , only the cab window portion left, > and a door scribed into the body sides in the area where the halves are > joined. > > Gerold > > -- just browsed eBay, there is a Penn Line kit on auction, body details > match my shorty body. eBay 170190754991 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5234	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Glenn, Yes, as I mentioned to Gerold, the "Varney Streamline 4-8-4 (Streamline Modified Electric Type)" resembles very much, the Pennsy R-1. However, it is not listed as such in any of the Varney catalogs up through 1940 (it is not included in the 1941 catalog, being discontinued the previous year). Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > What you describe by Varney sounds like the R-1. I think their catalog even listed it as such. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:42 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > Gerold, comparing your model with a pic of Varney's from their early catalogs, I'd have to say that unless Varney's is somewhat different from what they illustrate, this is not a Varney. While Varney has lots of photos of their steam engines, it looks like their shorty pre-War GG-1 is an artwork drawing (although very good - looking very much like a photo). I don't believe its a photo though, but quite close to one if you didn't look close. Their shorty GG-1's cab is much longer having 2 doors (and 2 ladders) on each side, with more windows and 2 round port-hole windows between the two doors. And its a 4-8-4. > > Your model is very close to, but still not the same as International's P-5A., including the much shorter cab, but the IMP cab has only one window (in addition to the door) on each side.(and the chassis is 4-6-4). I can't say who made yours, but its very close to a P-5A. Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5235	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Glenn476 wrote: > I think she was--I don't know if US-born or Japan born. Rumors were, > though, when Max died that the Japanese would not deal with a woman. Really? Seems that Bobbye Hall of Hallmark Models did quite ell. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5236	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Freight Car of Unknown Manufacture

Hi Lou, Almost -- What I'm saying is that the sides are either Athearn or Modelmaster, which Athearn made and painted for them. While the rest is most probably Athearn too, it those small add-ons that make it appear as if its a hybrid (by not by much). No other manufacturer made a GN Orange car -- besides MDC (which is cast metal) and Varney (which is easily distinguished from these), and as we said, IMP has those square tabs just outwards of the door (so that rules that mfr out). Incidentally, I just checked out some of my IMP kits and the few I opemed all have sheet metal doors (still in the plastic wrap). Yes, these Athearn metal car number keep surfacing, usually filling in between the already known numbers (but not necessarily). Without any of us being able to verify these new numbers when Mallerich's Guide was being put together, we could not speculate on them. I've recently seen new numbers on eBay during the last few years which no one knew about before. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for your comments on the GN metal boxcar. Am I correct in > reading your last paragraph as saying that the car is probably made by > Athearn either as its own product or for Modelmaster? I think you¹re saying > that the square tabs point in this direction. > You¹re right about car numbers surfacing that haven¹t been picked up by > the guidebooks. Another recent acquisition of mine is an Athearn Texaco > tank car with reporting marks TCX 205. The Mallerich listing for Texaco > cars omits this number, skipping from 204 to 206. > > > Lou > > > On 2/8/08 2:43 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Lou, As is always a couple of the main identifying features, yes the > > car sides and NUMBERS are always what gives them away (if only you > > know what to look for). Athearn produced GN Orange (metal) in at > > least 12 different road numbers that I'm aware of for Modelmaster; I > > have 8 of them. They then sold the over runs under their own > > (uncataloged) brand. The closest number to yours that is otherwise > > known is 10090 which both Frank Brua and I have. As has been seen > > with other Athearn road names, there have been numbers missing > > (unknown to most collectors) that were still produced but which > > haven't surfaced yet to the awareness of the public. By this its > > quite possible that your's is either a Modelmaster or an Athearn; > > Menzies also marketed GN Orange after acquiring Athearn, as did Park > > Varieties, using the same numbers (although its anybody's guess if > > they marketed 10094 (I only have one number in Menzies -- 10347, and > > two numbers in PV -- 10320 and 10323). > > > > International also made a GN orange, which I have, but I never wrote > > down the car numbers for that collection as they never used more than > > one number for each road name -- and they were different from > > Athearn's, etc. Could still be their number as a hybrid, but your > > description of the square shaped tabs comes back to me now. If your > > sides had that, you'd spot it right away. Odds are that its one of > > the former, originally made by Athearn regardless of who marketed > > it. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , > > "louiskgreiff" <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > I picked up several metal freightcars at a Rochester, NY train meet > > last weekend, including > >> > one I can't identify. It's an orange-colored Great Northern car, > > number 10094; reporting > >> > marks on the left, "See America First/Glacier National Park" > > mountain goat herald on the > >> > right, all in black lettering, not dark green. The steps are > > definitely International, but could > >> > be add ons. The underframe is a soft metal casting with no > > identifying marks on it (also > >> > possibly International). The doors are brass with one large tack > > board near the middle and > >> > one small tack board near the bottom. International used cast > > white metal doors on their > >> > boxcars. Construction is similar to Athearn first generation-- > > metal roof, ends, and sides > >> > built around a wooden floor, sub-ends, and sub-roof. Roofwalk is > > not cast but either brass > >> > or aluminum, and held down with four brads. Each side is fastened > > to the car floor with > >> > brads nailed through square shaped tabs. International cars didn't > > have side tabs that > >> > attached to the car floor. It's possible that this car is a > > hybrid, but maybe not. If the > >> > description sounds familiar to anyone let me know. The car sides > > and number are probably > >> > the main clues to the identity of this item. > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5237	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

Later when I get out to "The Basement" I'll dig out the Stokes Locos--I think it is the Pacific that has the modified rectangular tender--and check it out. Not too easy as they are screwed down in display cases--The builder was one of John Allen's operators.  When I met him he was more into HO traction and 1" scale live steam.  One of the tenders he did has an "SP-ish" oil bunker.   I have a standard Mantua tender body casting.   until later--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender You know Glenn,   I think you are right... I just re-compared it to my cast one... The water tank hatch has a very slight seam between it and the top of the tender and there is what appears to be one small tool mark on the entire outer or inner shell. It is located on top of the deck, as see nin photo 2. It is near the top of the frame, just south and west of the dirst stantion. It appears to be a slofht over-cut rinning length-wise and it terminates before the stantion.   I believe you are right, so now for my next question... what prototype was the modeler seeking?   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: I hate to say this, but that looks like an ordinary Mantua tender--with the coal bunker cut out.  Any tool marks around the edges of the hole?  Looks to me as though someone cut out the coal pile and planned to either build a brass bin, or an oil tank.  Looks almost like the one on Richard Stokes' Pacific.  That's the sort of tender frame and trucks I need to go with my tender shell.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn,   I have them posted on Vintage HO.. just visit the new photos page,,,   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: I can't seem to find the link  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn and All! I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like?    Thanks, Sean   Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Glenn,   I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! Later!   Sean   Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile.  I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5238	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

I think I may have seen too much of a link between heavy electrics and MU passenger cars. I have a soft spot in my head for the heavy electrics--since seeing a set of GN Z-1's at Wenatchee when I was 7--when in high school I started free-lancing some modernized juice jacks. That led to an interest in interurban electrics and eventually the shift to O Scale since more parts and drives were available there. Then while railroading with John Armstrong while the Army had me stationed at Walter Reed, I shifted back toward steam in O Scale. But also, while there, I used to get down to Washington Union Station when off duty and watch the GG-1's come and go. Occasionally saw the Pennsy's MU's there, rode them to Baltimore several times. But to me, at that time, they were too similar to the Harriman Commutes I had ridden on the SP. So I didn't pay a lot of attention to them. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:17 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > Hi Glenn, Thank you for pointing this out, although I believe most > members here are already aware of this, or at least I would hope so. I > never intimated the Walthers MU cars were locomotives, as appears > you're suggesting, but was replying to Dave F.'s post # 5160 (from > 2/7/08 - 1:54:39 PM EST) in which he brings up MU electric passenger > trains. Since it seems you may have missed that post, going by the > contents of your repy, I'll include it again here below in its entirety > (its short): > > "Hi Ray, The problem with the model railroad industry and hobby today > for the most part is that heavy electric engines have been sorely > neglected in their entirety. A few have been made, but not enough > considering there were as many variations of electrics as there were > diesels (and that doesn't enough begin to address MU electric passenger > trains). Dave F." > > Hope this clarifies the matter. Regards, Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> Those were really more an extension of their passenger car lines, > hardly considered locomotives--but they were electric prototypes. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: erieberk@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO >> >> >> Oh, I forgot to mention -- Walthers produced both the PRR MP-54 > MU's and the Delaware Lackawanna & Western MU's, not that this is an > awful lot. Ray >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5239	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

I had a Milw. Bi-Polar by NJ Custom Brass in HO, and still have one in O. The O has a "Jerry White drive" in it, Jerry sketched it out and supplied the materials I needed--to power all drivers. In rhea HO one I increased the powered drivers to 8 from the original four axles. I also have a pair of NWSL Milwaukee "Little Joes" and a Tenshodo GN Y-1. . In the 80's I freelanced a beefy electric from a pair of Athearn F-45's, with a D-D drive out of a DD-40. Somehow it disappeared via a fellow club member who was going to paint it in the club colors. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 7:58 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > Gerold, No doubt several of the imported brass manufacturers > probably made a good variety of Pennsy electrics, including the R-1, > the P-5A and of course more of the GG-1. They may have been included > in an issue of "The Brass Browser" (Ladd Publications) from 1974, but > as I don't have all the issues, I can't know if they were. Since you > brought this up though, I'd have to say that the Varney pre-War > electric was so much more in line with the PRR R-1 than it was the GG- > 1. Varney never actually advertised or promoted this engine as a GG- > 1, only saying in their catalog that "its design is adapted from the > Pennsylvania GG-1". Other Varney literature describes it > as, "Suggested by the Pennsylvania GG-1". In reality though, its so > very close to the 1934 built R-1 -- #4899 (ex-4800); yes this motor > too was numbered #4800 at one time. A major (actually very minor) > difference was that instead of having rectangular windows between the > two doors, the Varney model had those round porthole windows. Aside > from that, its resemblence to the R-1 is astounding, but has always > been known by collectors as the Shorty GG-1. > > By your description then, athough I didn't notice, you're saying that > a section was taken out of the center of your model to shorten it to > its present appearance. If that were the case as it seems, then > you're probably right in saying your model may well have started out > as either a post-War Varney or Penn-Line GG-1, especially if the long > hoods (noses) match. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: >> >> Ray, my only reference is Lenahans locomotive Lexicon... it shows a >> prewar R1 (4-8-4) , bronce casting, with porthole windows as you >> described previously. It seems the postwar Varney /Penn Line GG1s > may be >> the orgin of my loco... it is not obvious from the pictures, but > there >> is a section missing from the center , only the cab window portion > left, >> and a door scribed into the body sides in the area where the halves > are >> joined. >> >> Gerold >> >> -- just browsed eBay, there is a Penn Line kit on auction, body > details >> match my shorty body. eBay 170190754991 >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5240	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

Bobbye Hall had Jim Findley as her "Man in Korea" and probably also in Japan, I think a majority of her production was from Korea. Jim used to stop over with John Allen in Monterey on his trips back and forth. Continued for quite a while after John died. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Trucks > Glenn476 wrote: >> I think she was--I don't know if US-born or Japan born. Rumors were, >> though, when Max died that the Japanese would not deal with a woman. > > Really? Seems that Bobbye Hall of Hallmark Models did quite ell. > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > > I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5241	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

Sean, Glenn and All, Found your posted Mantua brass and cast tender photos; There is no "coal bin," just an empty hole as it came from the factory. This was the transitional tender that you guys both mentioned, used on both the late post-War Reading Atlantic and the late post-War Reading Pacific, before the one-piece "long haul" cast tender came out for the cast Pacific. The frame measures 4.076" (and the body - 3.956") long. Prior to this when the first post-War Reading Atlantics and Pacifics came out in 1948, the smaller cast bodied tender was used on both; the Consol was not brought out again after the War. Likewise, all of the pre-War engines (Consolidation, Atlantic and Pacific), all used the same small tender. Info on this was gathered from the 1938 (No. 39 First Edition), 1938 (No. 38 Second Edition, 1941 (First Edition. 1941 (Second Edition), 1942 (First Edition), 1942 (Second Edition), 1947, 1948 and 1953 Mantua Catalogs, Mantua 32-page softcover early post-War Atlantic and Pacific Construction & Operating Manual, 1953 Mantua 24-page softcover Locomotive Kit Replacement Parts List and the 1953 Mantua 64 page softcover HO Cyclopedia. They show exploded views of every part (with numbers) of every kit; let me know if you need any views. Ray \ --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hi Glenn and All! > > I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like? > > Thanks, Sean > > > Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > Hi Glenn, > > I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! > Later! > > > Sean > > > Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: > No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile. I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean Naylor > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > Hi Glenn, > > Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders?? > > I need to know what the coal bin looks like. > > Thnaks, Sean > > Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: > That's an idea. I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate. > > I have a consolidation--built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean Naylor > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > Hi Glenn, > > Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming... > > I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal. Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific. > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5242	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

Yeah, those GN heavy electrics were IMPRESSIVE! Never had the chance to see them in real life, but any photos I've seen of them were awsome; the Milwaukee Road motors were no slouches either. Living in the East, I had many opportunities to see and photograph the PRR GG- 1's (even made an hour-long movie of them ). Even photographed the New Haven EP-5's (then Penn Central). Funny you should mention Walter Reed, I used to know some woman there by the name of Geri Gustafson, she worked there for about 15 years up until 1991, although knowing the size of that place I doubt you would have known her. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I think I may have seen too much of a link between heavy electrics and MU > passenger cars. I have a soft spot in my head for the heavy > electrics--since seeing a set of GN Z-1's at Wenatchee when I was 7- -when in > high school I started free-lancing some modernized juice jacks. That led to > an interest in interurban electrics and eventually the shift to O Scale > since more parts and drives were available there. Then while railroading > with John Armstrong while the Army had me stationed at Walter Reed, I > shifted back toward steam in O Scale. But also, while there, I used to get > down to Washington Union Station when off duty and watch the GG- 1's come > and go. Occasionally saw the Pennsy's MU's there, rode them to Baltimore > several times. But to me, at that time, they were too similar to the > Harriman Commutes I had ridden on the SP. So I didn't pay a lot of > attention to them. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:17 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > > Hi Glenn, Thank you for pointing this out, although I believe most > > members here are already aware of this, or at least I would hope so. I > > never intimated the Walthers MU cars were locomotives, as appears > > you're suggesting, but was replying to Dave F.'s post # 5160 (from > > 2/7/08 - 1:54:39 PM EST) in which he brings up MU electric passenger > > trains. Since it seems you may have missed that post, going by the > > contents of your repy, I'll include it again here below in its entirety > > (its short): > > > > "Hi Ray, The problem with the model railroad industry and hobby today > > for the most part is that heavy electric engines have been sorely > > neglected in their entirety. A few have been made, but not enough > > considering there were as many variations of electrics as there were > > diesels (and that doesn't enough begin to address MU electric passenger > > trains). Dave F." > > > > Hope this clarifies the matter. Regards, Ray > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> Those were really more an extension of their passenger car lines, > > hardly considered locomotives--but they were electric prototypes. > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: erieberk@ > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:28 PM > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > >> > >> > >> Oh, I forgot to mention -- Walthers produced both the PRR MP-54 > > MU's and the Delaware Lackawanna & Western MU's, not that this is an > > awful lot. Ray > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5243	From: oljoeoh	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis

I have several examples of the Cary Boxcab for the Athearn Hustler chassis. I would like to exchange information about converting the existing NMRA couplers to Kaydee couplers. My feeble attempts so far have produced a drooping pair of Kaydees that won't work. I really need to exchange info with someone who has actually installed a set of Kaydees on this combo. When I took apart the original coupler pockets the NMRA couplers were easily removed. The new Kaydees simply don't sit in the pocket properly even though I'm pretty sure I used the correct Kaydee kit. The problem appears to be the pocket cover can no longer be used because the very long screw for the Cary cab needs to go through the pocket. I've also discoverd that trying to put things back together while trying to hold couplers, chassis, and cab requires more hands than I have availble in my house. My wife also has expressed her lack of compassion for my loud and obscene chatter while trying to do all of this. Joe O'Loughlin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5244	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

I went out and checked my stuff.  First of all, the two Stokes locos both have scratchbuilt tenders.  The Pacific has a Vanderbilt, the Consolidation has a rectangular tender that would look very similar to your cast one.  The locos had to have been built, or at least painted in or after 1946, as they are lettered "Southern Pacific", not "Southern Pacific Lines", which changed in 1946.   Now to comparing the tenders.  Mine has a raised-side in the coal bunker area, with the coal load on top. If one were to have attacked it with a hacksaw, the cut would have run front to back parallel with the top of the tender. This would leave a hole like yours.  The water hatch on mine is rectangular vs. oval on yours.  Yours has an underframe that sets inside the side sills of the tender. Mine must have had a frame that included the side sills, as the sides and ends end where they would sit on top of a decked frame.    So-- we have more of a mystery.  We have two different yet similar tender shells--which came first?  We need some instruction sheets, or good parts views in an ad.  Some rainy day I'll go out there and settle into the recliner with a lapful of MR's.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender You know Glenn,   I think you are right... I just re-compared it to my cast one... The water tank hatch has a very slight seam between it and the top of the tender and there is what appears to be one small tool mark on the entire outer or inner shell. It is located on top of the deck, as see nin photo 2. It is near the top of the frame, just south and west of the dirst stantion. It appears to be a slofht over-cut rinning length-wise and it terminates before the stantion.   I believe you are right, so now for my next question... what prototype was the modeler seeking?   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: I hate to say this, but that looks like an ordinary Mantua tender--with the coal bunker cut out.  Any tool marks around the edges of the hole?  Looks to me as though someone cut out the coal pile and planned to either build a brass bin, or an oil tank.  Looks almost like the one on Richard Stokes' Pacific.  That's the sort of tender frame and trucks I need to go with my tender shell.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn,   I have them posted on Vintage HO.. just visit the new photos page,,,   Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: I can't seem to find the link  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Glenn and All! I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like?    Thanks, Sean   Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote: Hi Glenn,   I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! Later!   Sean   Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile.  I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders??   I need to know what the coal bin looks like.   Thnaks, Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: That's an idea.   I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate.    I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO Hi Glenn,   Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming...   I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal.  Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific.   So, now I have 3 with one coming..   one pretty rough that I think you saw before .. and another that came with an atlantic I purchased, another that came with a pacific that I have..    I have two other cast atlantics in my mantua box that I tore apart, stripped, cleaned, but have yet to assemble. They have no tenders, but with the rough one and the one I have coming, I will have a tender for each engine that I have, with the transitional one as an extra.   But man do I have a story...   I was outbid by a guy on ebay for a very rare Mantua Brass Consolidation. . He beat my $275 max bid... Well, we ended-up emailing each other. He told me then that he had wanted since he was a kid. It was around then that I mentioned that the only reason why I had bid as high as I had was because I had a nice tender for it.  I asked him how high his bid was, all he told me was that was enough to be sure he won the bid.  It was then he almost begged for me to sell to him the tender I had.   I then proceeded to tell him that I had never and still have not yet seen an actual Mantua early brass tender offered for sale and had no idea what they were worth. I did know however, if I sold it and found a consolidation again, without a tender, I would regret having sold it. So, at this point, we being both collectors, I told him he needed to make me an offer I could not refuse, but an offer that he would be more than happy to pay, this way we would both be happy and neither would have any rerets. I would have been happy with about $40 - $50 for because that is what I am willing to pay for one... of $15 - $25 for the others that i had that were no where near as nice.   This is when he floored me...   His offer was $160 inc s/h... for a tender... I was speachless  I told him on one condition.. He was much older than I and as he had said in reference to his offer and the amount, He said he was an old man without that much time left and it is only money..   so I told him it was a deal... provided he kept a note with the piece that stated... I would be the first one to be contacted in the event that his collection (only after any immediate family members had taken their first dibs... and specificly I was to be contacted regarding if and only if this piece were ever to be sold off) The note was to have my name, address and phone number and the full amount of nearly $450 that he had paid for the entire engine and tender, which I agreed I will pay. This way... I might still have a chance later to find one before I die too... and his family would be sure to get what it is worth and not have it stollen out from under them by some He was more than happy to agree as did I.     Sean Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Sean--did you ever find a tender to go with that Mantua Atlantic?  I'm still looking for one--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO My mother is Bi-polar too.. believe me.. sometimes she can be a real drag!   Got to lover her though! Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: Can they drag a 2-6-6-2 and a 2-8-2 backwards? (That was the great demonstration on the Milwaukee--one EP-2 BiPolar dragged 2 steamers in a tug-of-war demo. ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: >> >> In spite of my main interest being On3--I do have a soft spot in my > head for any of the big electrics. GG-1's, Little Joes. Y-1's/FF-1's, > Bi-Polars--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: WK2SHR@... >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:33 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: HO >> > Some memebrs of mt wife's family are Bi-Polar.... ....... > > John (last name withheld to protect the sender) > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5245	From: Wobbly913	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis

This link is Kadees how to put Kadee couplers on the Hustler:   http://www.kadee.com/conv/pdf/ath30.pdf     Hope that might help. oljoeoh <oljoe@...> wrote: I have several examples of the Cary Boxcab for the Athearn Hustler chassis. I would like to exchange information about converting the existing NMRA couplers to Kaydee couplers. My feeble attempts so far have produced a drooping pair of Kaydees that won't work. I really need to exchange info with someone who has actually installed a set of Kaydees on this combo. When I took apart the original coupler pockets the NMRA couplers were easily removed. The new Kaydees simply don't sit in the pocket properly even though I'm pretty sure I used the correct Kaydee kit. The problem appears to be the pocket cover can no longer be used because the very long screw for the Cary cab needs to go through the pocket. I've also discoverd that trying to put things back together while trying to hold couplers, chassis, and cab requires more hands than I have availble in my house. My wife also has expressed her lack of compassion for my loud and obscene chatter while trying to do all of this. Joe O'Loughlin Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5246	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

If you see my description in the last post to Sean--a picture of each style with the date would be handy. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 12:35 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender > Sean, Glenn and All, Found your posted Mantua brass and cast tender > photos; There is no "coal bin," just an empty hole as it came from > the factory. This was the transitional tender that you guys both > mentioned, used on both the late post-War Reading Atlantic and the > late post-War Reading Pacific, before the one-piece "long haul" cast > tender came out for the cast Pacific. The frame measures 4.076" (and > the body - 3.956") long. > > Prior to this when the first post-War Reading Atlantics and Pacifics > came out in 1948, the smaller cast bodied tender was used on both; > the Consol was not brought out again after the War. Likewise, all of > the pre-War engines (Consolidation, Atlantic and Pacific), all used > the same small tender. > > Info on this was gathered from the 1938 (No. 39 First Edition), 1938 > (No. 38 Second Edition, 1941 (First Edition. 1941 (Second Edition), > 1942 (First Edition), 1942 (Second Edition), 1947, 1948 and 1953 > Mantua Catalogs, Mantua 32-page softcover early post-War Atlantic and > Pacific Construction & Operating Manual, 1953 Mantua 24-page > softcover Locomotive Kit Replacement Parts List and the 1953 Mantua > 64 page softcover HO Cyclopedia. They show exploded views of every > part (with numbers) of every kit; let me know if you need any views. > Ray > > > \ > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> > wrote: >> >> Hi Glenn and All! >> >> I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The > Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell > me what the coal bin is too look like? >> >> Thanks, Sean >> >> >> Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: >> Hi Glenn, >> >> I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! >> Later! >> >> >> Sean >> >> >> Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: >> No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two > Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile. I did > have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua. > gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Sean Naylor >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO >> >> >> Hi Glenn, >> >> Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass > and cast mantua transitional tenders?? >> >> I need to know what the coal bin looks like. >> >> Thnaks, Sean > > >> >> Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: >> That's an idea. I had some items flagged with a friend in > his estate. >> >> I have a consolidation--built up--tender is a scratch-built > vandy. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Sean Naylor >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO >> >> >> Hi Glenn, >> >> Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one > fairly decent one coming... >> >> I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main > rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs > a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal. Never seen one like it, > but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed > it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass > version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific. >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > Yahoo! Search. >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > Yahoo! Search. >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5247	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

I was at Walter Reed in 1966-67. Contrary to popular opinion at the time, those of us who got Student Deferments from the draft didn't get out of it altogether, but we did get assignments suitable to our educations--I wound up as a lab technician in the research unit. Had access to my office and lab after hours, and built quite a few models at my desk. Operated with John Armstrong and Ted Stepek. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > Yeah, those GN heavy electrics were IMPRESSIVE! Never had the chance > to see them in real life, but any photos I've seen of them were > awsome; the Milwaukee Road motors were no slouches either. Living in > the East, I had many opportunities to see and photograph the PRR GG- > 1's (even made an hour-long movie of them ). Even photographed the > New Haven EP-5's (then Penn Central). Funny you should mention > Walter Reed, I used to know some woman there by the name of Geri > Gustafson, she worked there for about 15 years up until 1991, > although knowing the size of that place I doubt you would have known > her. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> I think I may have seen too much of a link between heavy electrics > and MU >> passenger cars. I have a soft spot in my head for the heavy >> electrics--since seeing a set of GN Z-1's at Wenatchee when I was 7- > -when in >> high school I started free-lancing some modernized juice jacks. > That led to >> an interest in interurban electrics and eventually the shift to O > Scale >> since more parts and drives were available there. Then while > railroading >> with John Armstrong while the Army had me stationed at Walter Reed, > I >> shifted back toward steam in O Scale. But also, while there, I > used to get >> down to Washington Union Station when off duty and watch the GG- > 1's come >> and go. Occasionally saw the Pennsy's MU's there, rode them to > Baltimore >> several times. But to me, at that time, they were too similar to > the >> Harriman Commutes I had ridden on the SP. So I didn't pay a lot of >> attention to them. gj > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:17 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO >> >> >> > Hi Glenn, Thank you for pointing this out, although I believe > most >> > members here are already aware of this, or at least I would hope > so. I >> > never intimated the Walthers MU cars were locomotives, as appears >> > you're suggesting, but was replying to Dave F.'s post # 5160 (from >> > 2/7/08 - 1:54:39 PM EST) in which he brings up MU electric > passenger >> > trains. Since it seems you may have missed that post, going by > the >> > contents of your repy, I'll include it again here below in its > entirety >> > (its short): >> > >> > "Hi Ray, The problem with the model railroad industry and hobby > today >> > for the most part is that heavy electric engines have been sorely >> > neglected in their entirety. A few have been made, but not enough >> > considering there were as many variations of electrics as there > were >> > diesels (and that doesn't enough begin to address MU electric > passenger >> > trains). Dave F." >> > >> > Hope this clarifies the matter. Regards, Ray >> > >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> Those were really more an extension of their passenger car lines, >> > hardly considered locomotives--but they were electric prototypes. >> > >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: erieberk@ >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> >> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:28 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO >> >> >> >> >> >> Oh, I forgot to mention -- Walthers produced both the PRR MP-54 >> > MU's and the Delaware Lackawanna & Western MU's, not that this is > an >> > awful lot. Ray >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5248	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis

I don't particularly like the McHenry couplers, but this could be a place where the ones with the metal knuckle spring might work well--you wouldn't have to juggle the couplers and springs. You might have to find a pair with the proper height, and eliminate vertical play in the coupler box. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 1:20 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis >I have several examples of the Cary Boxcab for the > Athearn Hustler chassis. I would like to exchange > information about converting the existing NMRA > couplers to Kaydee couplers. My feeble attempts > so far have produced a drooping pair of Kaydees > that won't work. I really need to exchange info > with someone who has actually installed a set of > Kaydees on this combo. When I took apart the > original coupler pockets the NMRA couplers were > easily removed. The new Kaydees simply don't > sit in the pocket properly even though I'm pretty > sure I used the correct Kaydee kit. The problem > appears to be the pocket cover can no longer be > used because the very long screw for the Cary cab > needs to go through the pocket. I've also discoverd > that trying to put things back together while trying > to hold couplers, chassis, and cab requires more > hands than I have availble in my house. My wife > also has expressed her lack of compassion for > my loud and obscene chatter while trying to do > all of this. > Joe O'Loughlin > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5249	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis

I think Joe's problem is not enough hands to get everything in.   8^)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Wobbly913 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis This link is Kadees how to put Kadee couplers on the Hustler:   http://www.kadee.com/conv/pdf/ath30.pdf     Hope that might help. oljoeoh <oljoe@...> wrote: I have several examples of the Cary Boxcab for the Athearn Hustler chassis. I would like to exchange information about converting the existing NMRA couplers to Kaydee couplers. My feeble attempts so far have produced a drooping pair of Kaydees that won't work. I really need to exchange info with someone who has actually installed a set of Kaydees on this combo. When I took apart the original coupler pockets the NMRA couplers were easily removed. The new Kaydees simply don't sit in the pocket properly even though I'm pretty sure I used the correct Kaydee kit. The problem appears to be the pocket cover can no longer be used because the very long screw for the Cary cab needs to go through the pocket. I've also discoverd that trying to put things back together while trying to hold couplers, chassis, and cab requires more hands than I have availble in my house. My wife also has expressed her lack of compassion for my loud and obscene chatter while trying to do all of this. Joe O'Loughlin Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5250	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

Okay, if you care to send me your address off line, I'll xerox some copies and send them via snail mail (I don't have the capabilities to send them to a Group File). Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > If you see my description in the last post to Sean--a picture of each style > with the date would be handy. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 12:35 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic > Tender > > > > Sean, Glenn and All, Found your posted Mantua brass and cast tender > > photos; There is no "coal bin," just an empty hole as it came from > > the factory. This was the transitional tender that you guys both > > mentioned, used on both the late post-War Reading Atlantic and the > > late post-War Reading Pacific, before the one-piece "long haul" cast > > tender came out for the cast Pacific. The frame measures 4.076" (and > > the body - 3.956") long. > > > > Prior to this when the first post-War Reading Atlantics and Pacifics > > came out in 1948, the smaller cast bodied tender was used on both; > > the Consol was not brought out again after the War. Likewise, all of > > the pre-War engines (Consolidation, Atlantic and Pacific), all used > > the same small tender. > > > > Info on this was gathered from the 1938 (No. 39 First Edition), 1938 > > (No. 38 Second Edition, 1941 (First Edition. 1941 (Second Edition), > > 1942 (First Edition), 1942 (Second Edition), 1947, 1948 and 1953 > > Mantua Catalogs, Mantua 32-page softcover early post-War Atlantic and > > Pacific Construction & Operating Manual, 1953 Mantua 24-page > > softcover Locomotive Kit Replacement Parts List and the 1953 Mantua > > 64 page softcover HO Cyclopedia. They show exploded views of every > > part (with numbers) of every kit; let me know if you need any views. > > Ray > > > > > > \ > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@> > > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Glenn and All! > >> > >> I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The > > Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell > > me what the coal bin is too look like? > >> > >> Thanks, Sean > >> > >> > >> Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@> wrote: > >> Hi Glenn, > >> > >> I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! > >> Later! > >> > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> Glenn476 <glenn476@> wrote: > >> No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two > > Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile. I did > > have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua. > > gj > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Sean Naylor > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > >> > >> > >> Hi Glenn, > >> > >> Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass > > and cast mantua transitional tenders?? > >> > >> I need to know what the coal bin looks like. > >> > >> Thnaks, Sean > > > > > >> > >> Glenn476 <glenn476@> wrote: > >> That's an idea. I had some items flagged with a friend in > > his estate. > >> > >> I have a consolidation--built up--tender is a scratch-built > > vandy. > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Sean Naylor > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > >> > >> > >> Hi Glenn, > >> > >> Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one > > fairly decent one coming... > >> > >> I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main > > rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs > > a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal. Never seen one like it, > > but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed > > it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass > > version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > Yahoo! Search. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > Yahoo! Search. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it now. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5251	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis

That, or I suspect he didn't file out the sides of the pocket to get rid of those little nubs so the spring sits properly.  Another trick is to take the bottom part of the kadee pocket (the flat piece with the boss), cit the little eyes off the sides, and use that upside down for the cover plate.  (I do that a lot when putting kadees on old Varney or Hobbyline cars).  That way the boss hold the coupler properly.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis I think Joe's problem is not enough hands to get everything in.   8^)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Wobbly913 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kaydees on Cary/Athearn chassis This link is Kadees how to put Kadee couplers on the Hustler:   http://www.kadee.com/conv/pdf/ath30.pdf     Hope that might help. oljoeoh <oljoe@...> wrote: I have several examples of the Cary Boxcab for the Athearn Hustler chassis. I would like to exchange information about converting the existing NMRA couplers to Kaydee couplers. My feeble attempts so far have produced a drooping pair of Kaydees that won't work. I really need to exchange info with someone who has actually installed a set of Kaydees on this combo. When I took apart the original coupler pockets the NMRA couplers were easily removed. The new Kaydees simply don't sit in the pocket properly even though I'm pretty sure I used the correct Kaydee kit. The problem appears to be the pocket cover can no longer be used because the very long screw for the Cary cab needs to go through the pocket. I've also discoverd that trying to put things back together while trying to hold couplers, chassis, and cab requires more hands than I have availble in my house. My wife also has expressed her lack of compassion for my loud and obscene chatter while trying to do all of this. Joe O'Loughlin Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5252	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trucks

I have received a number of inquiries re: "Rolltester".  This is a device holding two parallel two foot long HO tracks where each track is bent into a smooth vertical curve about 5" high on the ends, and 1" in the middle. Reboxx sells it on its website www.reboxx.com/. Its use is to measure the rollability of trucks by counting the number of rolls- no matter how small- that result from rolling the truck from the tops of the hills.  It is pretty reliable, and the data is made credible by taking the average of 3-5 rolls. For those running very short trains, this type of device is probably overkill.  1898 2-8-2. That is a great Baldwin generic model that was built by KTM and imported by Max Gray in 1962 His price: @ $38. The only one I ever saw was in the Palo Alto hobby shop (Glenn Joesten would know-), and at the time even $38 was outside my budget. I am not surprised that it runs well. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5253	From: erieberk	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

That's a little before her time there, so I guess there's no way you could have known her. Nice "fringe" benefits working in the lab (lol). Did you at least have a shelf layout along one of the lab tables? <grin> Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I was at Walter Reed in 1966-67. Contrary to popular opinion at the time, > those of us who got Student Deferments from the draft didn't get out of it > altogether, but we did get assignments suitable to our educations-- I wound > up as a lab technician in the research unit. Had access to my office and lab > after hours, and built quite a few models at my desk. Operated with John > Armstrong and Ted Stepek. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 1:01 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > > Yeah, those GN heavy electrics were IMPRESSIVE! Never had the chance > > to see them in real life, but any photos I've seen of them were > > awsome; the Milwaukee Road motors were no slouches either. Living in > > the East, I had many opportunities to see and photograph the PRR GG- > > 1's (even made an hour-long movie of them ). Even photographed the > > New Haven EP-5's (then Penn Central). Funny you should mention > > Walter Reed, I used to know some woman there by the name of Geri > > Gustafson, she worked there for about 15 years up until 1991, > > although knowing the size of that place I doubt you would have known > > her. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> I think I may have seen too much of a link between heavy electrics > > and MU > >> passenger cars. I have a soft spot in my head for the heavy > >> electrics--since seeing a set of GN Z-1's at Wenatchee when I was 7- > > -when in > >> high school I started free-lancing some modernized juice jacks. > > That led to > >> an interest in interurban electrics and eventually the shift to O > > Scale > >> since more parts and drives were available there. Then while > > railroading > >> with John Armstrong while the Army had me stationed at Walter Reed, > > I > >> shifted back toward steam in O Scale. But also, while there, I > > used to get > >> down to Washington Union Station when off duty and watch the GG- > > 1's come > >> and go. Occasionally saw the Pennsy's MU's there, rode them to > > Baltimore > >> several times. But to me, at that time, they were too similar to > > the > >> Harriman Commutes I had ridden on the SP. So I didn't pay a lot of > >> attention to them. gj > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:17 AM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > >> > >> > >> > Hi Glenn, Thank you for pointing this out, although I believe > > most > >> > members here are already aware of this, or at least I would hope > > so. I > >> > never intimated the Walthers MU cars were locomotives, as appears > >> > you're suggesting, but was replying to Dave F.'s post # 5160 (from > >> > 2/7/08 - 1:54:39 PM EST) in which he brings up MU electric > > passenger > >> > trains. Since it seems you may have missed that post, going by > > the > >> > contents of your repy, I'll include it again here below in its > > entirety > >> > (its short): > >> > > >> > "Hi Ray, The problem with the model railroad industry and hobby > > today > >> > for the most part is that heavy electric engines have been sorely > >> > neglected in their entirety. A few have been made, but not enough > >> > considering there were as many variations of electrics as there > > were > >> > diesels (and that doesn't enough begin to address MU electric > > passenger > >> > trains). Dave F." > >> > > >> > Hope this clarifies the matter. Regards, Ray > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Those were really more an extension of their passenger car lines, > >> > hardly considered locomotives--but they were electric prototypes. > >> > > >> > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: erieberk@ > >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> >> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:28 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Oh, I forgot to mention -- Walthers produced both the PRR MP-54 > >> > MU's and the Delaware Lackawanna & Western MU's, not that this is > > an > >> > awful lot. Ray > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5254	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Train-Miniature Memories

We are on the fringe of vintage with Train-Miniature, but I engendered quite a discussion with Mantua Memories, so here goes. T-M first appeared in the mid-60s if I remember correctly. They were a fine alternative to Athearn and MDC at the time. They had excellent box and reefer cars. The first products were listed as coming from San Diego then later La Mesa, Cal. Even today I have been able to pick up kits for as little as $5 at meets though some cars go at quite a premium ($35). I do not know what the exact timeline is here however and this is what I would like to discuss. Eventually production of these kits stopped. I believe Walthers took up the production though. There was also a Train-Miniature of Illinois which had kits in a distintive plastic container. What is the timeline on Train-Miniature?--John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5255	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Clean-up, odds and ends

Spent the afternoon out in "The Basement"--found some interesting paper.    Jerry G--I found a Max Gray catalog with a reference to that 1898 Mikado.  November 1962, Bulletin N. 36, offered a reward for information on the pilferage of several of those locos at SFO, before they got to Customs. Price was $37.50,  first lot was sold out and a second run was coming in--this is probably what was stolen.    Sean--I found some Mantua catalogs--1948 shows the parts of the Pacific in the box--the tender is like the one I have.  1942 Catalog doesn't show the parts, but the "big engines"--Atlantic, Pacific, and Consolidation--appear to have "open" coal bunkers.  The bunkers certainly appear to be of sheet metal.  Wonder if they had a riveted wrapper that included the extension of the tender sides.   I did a clinic titled "Ancient HO" at the 1994 Pacific Coast Region Convention in Santa Clara.  I had some correspondence with Mantua for some background info.  They pointed out an article in MR November 1984 that had a lot of information.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5256	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 00:09:13 +0000, wildwoodjct wrote: > I believe Walthers took up the production though. There was >also a Train-Miniature of Illinois which had kits in a distintive >plastic container. What is the timeline on Train-Miniature? Well, I can't tell you a lot, but when I lived in San Diego in 1972-1975 I frequently went to a craft store/hobby shop in La Mesa that seemed to be very closely allied with Train Miniature. Although there seemed to be some turbulence, it was running well in that time frame. I bought a good many of their boxcars, stock cars, and reefers with the idea of scraping off the cast on ladders, etc. and repainting them into my private road name. I still have a good many of these that are as yet untouched... Jerry - It isn't so good that it couldn't get better; it isn't so bad that it couldn't be worse. - Lyrics from a song written by T. Wolf and F. Landeman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5257	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: HO

I had several sections of Gar-Graves 2-rail track that I could line up on the lab bench--we had a 24-volt "relay rack" system to program and record our experiments, for which I set up a rheostat and reversing switch panel to test locos. ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > That's a little before her time there, so I guess there's no way you > could have known her. Nice "fringe" benefits working in the lab > (lol). Did you at least have a shelf layout along one of the lab > tables? <grin> Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> I was at Walter Reed in 1966-67. Contrary to popular opinion at > the time, >> those of us who got Student Deferments from the draft didn't get > out of it >> altogether, but we did get assignments suitable to our educations-- > I wound >> up as a lab technician in the research unit. Had access to my > office and lab >> after hours, and built quite a few models at my desk. Operated with > John >> Armstrong and Ted Stepek. gj > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 1:01 PM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO >> >> >> > Yeah, those GN heavy electrics were IMPRESSIVE! Never had the > chance >> > to see them in real life, but any photos I've seen of them were >> > awsome; the Milwaukee Road motors were no slouches either. > Living in >> > the East, I had many opportunities to see and photograph the PRR > GG- >> > 1's (even made an hour-long movie of them ). Even photographed > the >> > New Haven EP-5's (then Penn Central). Funny you should mention >> > Walter Reed, I used to know some woman there by the name of Geri >> > Gustafson, she worked there for about 15 years up until 1991, >> > although knowing the size of that place I doubt you would have > known >> > her. Ray >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> I think I may have seen too much of a link between heavy > electrics >> > and MU >> >> passenger cars. I have a soft spot in my head for the heavy >> >> electrics--since seeing a set of GN Z-1's at Wenatchee when I > was 7- >> > -when in >> >> high school I started free-lancing some modernized juice jacks. >> > That led to >> >> an interest in interurban electrics and eventually the shift to O >> > Scale >> >> since more parts and drives were available there. Then while >> > railroading >> >> with John Armstrong while the Army had me stationed at Walter > Reed, >> > I >> >> shifted back toward steam in O Scale. But also, while there, I >> > used to get >> >> down to Washington Union Station when off duty and watch the GG- >> > 1's come >> >> and go. Occasionally saw the Pennsy's MU's there, rode them to >> > Baltimore >> >> several times. But to me, at that time, they were too similar to >> > the >> >> Harriman Commutes I had ridden on the SP. So I didn't pay a lot > of >> >> attention to them. gj >> > >> > >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> >> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:17 AM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hi Glenn, Thank you for pointing this out, although I believe >> > most >> >> > members here are already aware of this, or at least I would > hope >> > so. I >> >> > never intimated the Walthers MU cars were locomotives, as > appears >> >> > you're suggesting, but was replying to Dave F.'s post # 5160 > (from >> >> > 2/7/08 - 1:54:39 PM EST) in which he brings up MU electric >> > passenger >> >> > trains. Since it seems you may have missed that post, going by >> > the >> >> > contents of your repy, I'll include it again here below in its >> > entirety >> >> > (its short): >> >> > >> >> > "Hi Ray, The problem with the model railroad industry and > hobby >> > today >> >> > for the most part is that heavy electric engines have been > sorely >> >> > neglected in their entirety. A few have been made, but not > enough >> >> > considering there were as many variations of electrics as there >> > were >> >> > diesels (and that doesn't enough begin to address MU electric >> > passenger >> >> > trains). Dave F." >> >> > >> >> > Hope this clarifies the matter. Regards, Ray >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Those were really more an extension of their passenger car > lines, >> >> > hardly considered locomotives--but they were electric > prototypes. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: erieberk@ >> >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:28 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Oh, I forgot to mention -- Walthers produced both the PRR > MP-54 >> >> > MU's and the Delaware Lackawanna & Western MU's, not that this > is >> > an >> >> > awful lot. Ray >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5258	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Clean-up, odds and ends

Glenn and Denny-thanks very much for the additional info, and confirmation of documentation.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:58 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Clean-up, odds and ends   Spent the afternoon out in "The Basement"--found some interesting paper.    Jerry G--I found a Max Gray catalog with a reference to that 1898 Mikado.  November 1962, Bulletin N. 36, offered a reward for information on the pilferage of several of those locos at SFO, before they got to Customs. Price was $37.50,  first lot was sold out and a second run was coming in--this is probably what was stolen.    Sean--I found some Mantua catalogs--1948 shows the parts of the Pacific in the box--the tender is like the one I have.  1942 Catalog doesn't show the parts, but the "big engines"--Atlantic, Pacific, and Consolidation--appear to have "open" coal bunkers.  The bunkers certainly appear to be of sheet metal.  Wonder if they had a riveted wrapper that included the extension of the tender sides.   I did a clinic titled "Ancient HO" at the 1994 Pacific Coast Region Convention in Santa Clara.  I had some correspondence with Mantua for some background info.  They pointed out an article in MR November 1984 that had a lot of information.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5259	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories

We visited TM in La Mesa--a suburb of San Diego--during the 1974 NMRA National Convention. That should give some time frame. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:09 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Memories >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5260	From: rayzef	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Max Gray

Gerry, I have 2 Great Northern Y1 electrics by Max Gray, they were imported in 1963, not sure what else was made in HO.They are vertical drive into the truck, 1 motor on each. Not sure if they run, must test them one day! RayZ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5261	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories

----- Original Message ----- From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 6:09 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Memories > We are on the fringe of vintage with Train-Miniature, but I engendered > quite a discussion with Mantua Memories, so here goes. T-M first > appeared in the mid-60s if I remember correctly. They were a fine > alternative to Athearn and MDC at the time. They had excellent box and > reefer cars. The first products were listed as coming from San Diego > then later La Mesa, Cal. Even today I have been able to pick up kits > for as little as $5 at meets though some cars go at quite a premium > ($35). I do not know what the exact timeline is here however and this > is what I would like to discuss. Eventually production of these kits > stopped. I believe Walthers took up the production though. There was > also a Train-Miniature of Illinois which had kits in a distintive > plastic container. What is the timeline on Train-Miniature?--John Going from memory and a quick perusal of my Walthers' caatlog collection (but many years are missing), TM first appeared ca. 1970-71 with several box cars and the plastic work cars originally made by Tru-Scale as plastic versions of the Silver Streak Cars. I started out trying to get every one of their monthly "car spotters" cars which started in 1971, but gave up after about 9 or 10 (don't have any of 'em left). By 1977 they were gone from the catalog. Ca. 1980 or so "Train-Miniature of Illinois" appeared. I THINK TMI was actually Chuck Alberti, who was also a Walthers employee. Then in the mid 1980's TMI dissapeared, with the announcement that Walthers was coming out with a "NEW LINE" of freight cars, which coincided with the discontiuance of the Silver Streak and Ulrich cars. Of course the "NEW LINE" was nothing more than the old TM cars. A few still survive today as part of the "Trainline" series. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5262	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: TRAIN MINATURE - TRAIN-MASTER

Attachments : I recall that some of the boxes were labeled TRAIN-MASTER instead of TRAIN MINATURE, spicture attached.   Never heard what the reason for that was.   Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5263	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories

The hobby shop that used to be a few blocks from my apartment (They've moved further away), still has some TM and TMI models. Fairly nice cars for the day, considering that the 1970s and '80s were the decades that a lot of junk was being put out. Plastic trains aren't really my thing, though, I like paper and wood, and metal trains much, much better, so I only have one of these cars, and it was used as scenery, a woodside boxcar body used as a hobo jungle. It did a nice job of that though! -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > Going from memory and a quick perusal of my Walthers' caatlog collection > (but many years are missing), TM first appeared ca. 1970-71 with several box > cars and the plastic work cars originally made by Tru-Scale as plastic > versions of the Silver Streak Cars. I started out trying to get every one > of their monthly "car spotters" cars which started in 1971, but gave up > after about 9 or 10 (don't have any of 'em left). > > By 1977 they were gone from the catalog. > > Ca. 1980 or so "Train-Miniature of Illinois" appeared. I THINK TMI was > actually Chuck Alberti, who was also a Walthers employee. > > Then in the mid 1980's TMI dissapeared, with the announcement that Walthers > was coming out with a "NEW LINE" of freight cars, which coincided with the > discontiuance of the Silver Streak and Ulrich cars. Of course the "NEW > LINE" was nothing more than the old TM cars. A few still survive today as > part of the "Trainline" series. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5264	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:28:24 -0800, Glenn476 wrote: >We visited TM in La Mesa--a suburb of San Diego--during the 1974 NMRA >National Convention. That should give some time frame. gj I would have liked to have attended that convention, however I was busy every moment I could get away from work operating our club layout in Del Mar (the Pacific Beach and Western). <G> Jerry - It isn't so good that it couldn't get better; it isn't so bad that it couldn't be worse. - Lyrics from a song written by T. Wolf and F. Landeman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5265	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

Hi Ray,   I just compared the two diecast tenders I have and the only difference that I see, other than the water tank hatches and the coal bin missing on the one and it being molded on the other is the one without the bin has the molded on MANTUA on the underside of the tender shell. The teder with the molded-on coal bin does not have the MANTUA mark on the underside of the shell.   That was a surprising difference to me..   Sean erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Sean, Glenn and All, Found your posted Mantua brass and cast tender photos; There is no "coal bin," just an empty hole as it came from the factory. This was the transitional tender that you guys both mentioned, used on both the late post-War Reading Atlantic and the late post-War Reading Pacific, before the one-piece "long haul" cast tender came out for the cast Pacific. The frame measures 4.076" (and the body - 3.956") long. Prior to this when the first post-War Reading Atlantics and Pacifics came out in 1948, the smaller cast bodied tender was used on both; the Consol was not brought out again after the War. Likewise, all of the pre-War engines (Consolidation, Atlantic and Pacific), all used the same small tender. Info on this was gathered from the 1938 (No. 39 First Edition), 1938 (No. 38 Second Edition, 1941 (First Edition. 1941 (Second Edition), 1942 (First Edition), 1942 (Second Edition), 1947, 1948 and 1953 Mantua Catalogs, Mantua 32-page softcover early post-War Atlantic and Pacific Construction & Operating Manual, 1953 Mantua 24-page softcover Locomotive Kit Replacement Parts List and the 1953 Mantua 64 page softcover HO Cyclopedia. They show exploded views of every part (with numbers) of every kit; let me know if you need any views. Ray \ --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Glenn and All! > > I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like? > > Thanks, Sean > > > Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > Hi Glenn, > > I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! > Later! > > > Sean > > > Glenn476 <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile. I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean Naylor > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > Hi Glenn, > > Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders?? > > I need to know what the coal bin looks like. > > Thnaks, Sean > > Glenn476 <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > That's an idea. I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate. > > I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean Naylor > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > Hi Glenn, > > Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming... > > I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal. Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific. > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5266	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature Memories

I recall we all had to get off the bus and walk uphill a block--then get back on--That was also the year that our all-protecting government decreed that before a car could start all seat belts had to be fastened. Allan Fenton had his company car there--and we had to all wait until he started it before anyone else could get in. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Prather" <prather.js@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Memories > On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:28:24 -0800, Glenn476 wrote: > >>We visited TM in La Mesa--a suburb of San Diego--during the 1974 NMRA >>National Convention. That should give some time frame. gj > > I would have liked to have attended that convention, however I > was busy every moment I could get away from work operating our > club layout in Del Mar (the Pacific Beach and Western). <G> > > > Jerry > > - > It isn't so good that it couldn't get better; it isn't so bad that it > couldn't be worse. > - Lyrics from a song written by T. Wolf and F. Landeman > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5267	From: Al Campbell	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Kar-Line

Hello Ray: Thank you for your response to my inquiry about Kar-Line. Any opinions about New England Models? Regards , Al

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5268	From: John Barlow	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)

Group,   Back in the 1970'sI bought a TM (?) "Sole Leather Route" wooden boxcar at Caboose Hobbies and smiled at the Wagston, Addiston, and Galeston (WAG) lettering...in Pennsylvania was/is the road, as I recalled.   A month orso later I was in Colorado Springs on some Air National Guard business with my then wife and as we headed north on Nervada to catch I-25, we passed some commercial type buildings, perhaps warehouses. On a siding beside one, paralleling the street but above street level, was one of the WAG wooden boxcars...alone...in Colorado Springs. The area was serviced by the then Rock Island, I believe.   The site of a model in prototype form from swuch a small line this far west was amazing.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5269	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/9/2008
Subject: Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender

that agrees with the one I have.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Brass - Cast Transitional Mantua Pacific/Atlantic Tender Hi Ray,   I just compared the two diecast tenders I have and the only difference that I see, other than the water tank hatches and the coal bin missing on the one and it being molded on the other is the one without the bin has the molded on MANTUA on the underside of the tender shell. The teder with the molded-on coal bin does not have the MANTUA mark on the underside of the shell.   That was a surprising difference to me..   Sean erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Sean, Glenn and All, Found your posted Mantua brass and cast tender photos; There is no "coal bin," just an empty hole as it came from the factory. This was the transitional tender that you guys both mentioned, used on both the late post-War Reading Atlantic and the late post-War Reading Pacific, before the one-piece "long haul" cast tender came out for the cast Pacific. The frame measures 4.076" (and the body - 3.956") long. Prior to this when the first post-War Reading Atlantics and Pacifics came out in 1948, the smaller cast bodied tender was used on both; the Consol was not brought out again after the War. Likewise, all of the pre-War engines (Consolidation, Atlantic and Pacific), all used the same small tender. Info on this was gathered from the 1938 (No. 39 First Edition), 1938 (No. 38 Second Edition, 1941 (First Edition. 1941 (Second Edition), 1942 (First Edition), 1942 (Second Edition), 1947, 1948 and 1953 Mantua Catalogs, Mantua 32-page softcover early post-War Atlantic and Pacific Construction & Operating Manual, 1953 Mantua 24-page softcover Locomotive Kit Replacement Parts List and the 1953 Mantua 64 page softcover HO Cyclopedia. They show exploded views of every part (with numbers) of every kit; let me know if you need any views. Ray \ --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Glenn and All! > > I have posted the pics of this tender for all to see on The Vintage HO site.. Has anyone ever seen one before and can anyone tell me what the coal bin is too look like? > > Thanks, Sean > > > Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > Hi Glenn, > > I will post pics of it later.. Off to work! > Later! > > > Sean > > > Glenn476 <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > No--I have only seen the two modified ones with the two Stokes locos, and a cast body which includes a cast coal pile. I did have one like it in a kit--before I decided to collect the Mantua. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean Naylor > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:23 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > Hi Glenn, > > Have you or anyone in the group ever seen onne of these old brass and cast mantua transitional tenders?? > > I need to know what the coal bin looks like. > > Thnaks, Sean > > Glenn476 <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > That's an idea. I had some items flagged with a friend in his estate. > > I have a consolidation- -built up--tender is a scratch-built vandy. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean Naylor > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:40 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wanted: HO > > > Hi Glenn, > > Yes and no... I had one and then I sold one. But now I have one fairly decent one coming... > > I also have come up with a transitional one.. The main rectangular body is cast, but the coal bin has a void as if it needs a brass insert of sorts to hold the coal. Never seen one like it, but it is clearly marked mantua and i was told by the guy that handed it to me that it was a transitional one, between the all brass version and the all cast version and that it went to a pacific. > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5270	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)

John,     Do you recall if your WAG boxcar was outside braced (dark tuscan red) or all-wood (orange and cream color)?  I believe that both were made on TM bodies, but the all-wood car was a special run with decal lettering.  The exact name of this railroad was the Wellsville, Addison, and Galeton.  It was a short line that took over a former B&O branch running from northern Pennsylvania into the Southern Tier of New York State where it interchanged with the Erie at Wellsville, NY.  Actually, two of the three towns in the railroad’s name (Wellsville and Addison are in New York State, with Galeton being the only Pennsylvania town).  The 1972 Hurricane Agnes floods ended New York State operations for good, and the railroaded ended operations altogether in the late 70s or early 80s.  In the 70s the TM cars were the only WAG equipment commercially available as far as I know, although Walthers did make the decals for the boxcars.  And I’m not surprised that you saw WAG cars in Colorado because they traveled all over the U. S. and in Canada too  (WAG interchanged with the New York Central as well as with the Erie).  The orange and cream box cars were in LCL service and never left the property.  Since those days, the WAG has become somewhat of a cult railroad, believe it or not.  Two versions of the OB boxcars are available today as special runs on Accurail bodies, and a couple of years ago one of the brass outfits (Overland I think) produced beautifully decorated O and HO models of a distinctive WAG locomotive, a 125 ton GE center cab switcher.  WAG bought 7 of them used from the Ford Motor Company.  The brass loco retailed for around $600.00, and the run was completely sold out.  Stewart mass produced WAG F-7s for several years (maybe Bowser still does) in at least three different road numbers.  WAG bought most of the F-7s from SP and one B unit from WP which it used for parts.  I have two WAG cars from the 1970s on my freight car roster too, and they are still in service on my layout.  The Accurail cars look more like the real thing, however.     Best wishes.                                                                                                                                             Lou On 2/10/08 12:46 AM, "John Barlow" <jdenver4150@...> wrote:     Group,         Back in the 1970'sI bought a TM (?) "Sole Leather Route" wooden boxcar at Caboose Hobbies and smiled at the Wagston, Addiston, and Galeston (WAG) lettering...in Pennsylvania was/is the road, as I recalled.         A month orso later I was in Colorado Springs on some Air National Guard business with my then wife and as we headed north on Nervada to catch I-25, we passed some commercial type buildings, perhaps warehouses. On a siding beside one, paralleling the street but above street level, was one of the WAG wooden boxcars...alone...in Colorado Springs. The area was serviced by the then Rock Island, I believe.         The site of a model in prototype form from swuch a small line this far west was amazing.         John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)    Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5271	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)

Attachments : I believe TM and later Walthers only did the single sheathed car (mine attached)   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories) John,     Do you recall if your WAG boxcar was outside braced (dark tuscan red) or all-wood (orange and cream color)?  I believe that both were made on TM bodies, but the all-wood car was a special run with decal lettering.  The exact name of this railroad was the Wellsville, Addison, and Galeton.  It was a short line that took over a former B&O branch running from northern Pennsylvania into the Southern Tier of New York State where it interchanged with the Erie at Wellsville, NY.  Actually, two of the three towns in the railroad’s name (Wellsville and Addison are in New York State, with Galeton being the only Pennsylvania town).  The 1972 Hurricane Agnes floods ended New York State operations for good, and the railroaded ended operations altogether in the late 70s or early 80s.  In the 70s the TM cars were the only WAG equipment commercially available as far as I know, although Walthers did make the decals for the boxcars.  And I’m not surprised that you saw WAG cars in Colorado because they traveled all over the U. S. and in Canada too  (WAG interchanged with the New York Central as well as with the Erie).  The orange and cream box cars were in LCL service and never left the property.  Since those days, the WAG has become somewhat of a cult railroad, believe it or not.  Two versions of the OB boxcars are available today as special runs on Accurail bodies, and a couple of years ago one of the brass outfits (Overland I think) produced beautifully decorated O and HO models of a distinctive WAG locomotive, a 125 ton GE center cab switcher.  WAG bought 7 of them used from the Ford Motor Company.  The brass loco retailed for around $600.00, and the run was completely sold out.  Stewart mass produced WAG F-7s for several years (maybe Bowser still does) in at least three different road numbers.  WAG bought most of the F-7s from SP and one B unit from WP which it used for parts.  I have two WAG cars fro! m the 19 70s on my freight car roster too, and they are still in service on my layout.  The Accurail cars look more like the real thing, however.     Best wishes.                                                                                                                                             Lou

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5272	From: John Barlow	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)

Dear Don and Lou and Group,   I regret my delay in getting back, but the car i saw was externally braced (like right out of the TM box) and tuscan red-colored (perhaps weathered a tad.) Crazy as it sounds, smaller railroads' equipment is an eye-catching event out here...and in those days I was a dual rights switchman/brakeman for the Union Pacific in Denver. I saw a few M&Pa in Denver, but the one I expected to see more of but only ever saw one of was a NdeM 40-foot boxcar (and beautifully maintained, I might add.)   One night I got to see and touch an Ambroid kit "come to life" (so to speak), the rib-sided D&RGW boxcar, at the the UP's then 24th Street yards which are now part of the parking lot for Coors Stadium, if not part of that sports facility itself. That night I ran my hand along the vertical ribs and found a secret that the Ambroid people would be hard-pressed to add in their model (I have one...unbuilt). The vertical ribs were not rectangular across...they flared wide to a wye ("Y") shape toward the outside, if cut from left to right or vice-versa. I doubt that any wood manufacturer could make an isosceles triangular piece of bass wood that small to glue to the sides of the vertical ribs to make that tiny touch of "prototypicality" in HO or O.   Thanks for the info, gentlemen.   John      Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: I believe TM and later Walthers only did the single sheathed car (mine attached)   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories) John,     Do you recall if your WAG boxcar was outside braced (dark tuscan red) or all-wood (orange and cream color)?  I believe that both were made on TM bodies, but the all-wood car was a special run with decal lettering.  The exact name of this railroad was the Wellsville, Addison, and Galeton.  It was a short line that took over a former B&O branch running from northern Pennsylvania into the Southern Tier of New York State where it interchanged with the Erie at Wellsville, NY.  Actually, two of the three towns in the railroad’s name (Wellsville and Addison are in New York State, with Galeton being the only Pennsylvania town).  The 1972 Hurricane Agnes floods ended New York State operations for good, and the railroaded ended operations altogether in the late 70s or early 80s.  In the 70s the TM cars were the only WAG equipment commercially available as far as I know, although Walthers did make the decals for the boxcars.  And I’m not surprised that you saw WAG cars in Colorado because they traveled all over the U. S. and in Canada too  (WAG interchanged with the New York Central as well as with the Erie).  The orange and cream box cars were in LCL service and never left the property.  Since those days, the WAG has become somewhat of a cult railroad, believe it or not.  Two versions of the OB boxcars are available today as special runs on Accurail bodies, and a couple of years ago one of the brass outfits (Overland I think) produced beautifully decorated O and HO models of a distinctive WAG locomotive, a 125 ton GE center cab switcher.  WAG bought 7 of them used from the Ford Motor Company.  The brass loco retailed for around $600.00, and the run was completely sold out.  Stewart mass produced WAG F-7s for several years (maybe Bowser still does) in at least three different road numbers.  WAG bought most of the F-7s from SP and one B unit from WP which it used for parts.  I have two WAG cars fro! m the 19 70s on my freight car roster too, and they are still in service on my layout.  The Accurail cars look more like the real thing, however.     Best wishes.                                                                                                                                             Lou Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5273	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)

Dear Don, John, and Group,         Nice weathering on your WAG boxcar, Don.  And it is great, John, to have the chance to lay hands on the real thing while you’re working on the model.  I had a parallel experience with a Keyser Valley DL&W wood caboose (preserved near Horseheads, NY) while I was working on the JJL laser-cut wood kit.  Among other things I found out what the cutout in one of the splash plates was for.  No clue in the instruction sheet.  In case anyone doesn’t know, some of the WAG’s main customers were tanneries, hence “The Sole Leather Line.”  They also made pickups and deliveries at a baseball bat factory, I think a branch of Adirondack.     Happy model railroading—main line, branch line, or short line.                                                                                                                             Lou On 2/10/08 4:37 PM, "John Barlow" <jdenver4150@...> wrote:     Dear Don and Lou and Group,        I regret my delay in getting back, but the car i saw was externally braced (like right out of the TM box) and tuscan red-colored (perhaps weathered a tad.) Crazy as it sounds, smaller railroads' equipment is an eye-catching event out here...and in those days I was a dual rights switchman/brakeman for the Union Pacific in Denver. I saw a few M&Pa in Denver, but the one I expected to see more of but only ever saw one of was a NdeM 40-foot boxcar (and beautifully maintained, I might add.)        One night I got to see and touch an Ambroid kit "come to life" (so to speak), the rib-sided D&RGW boxcar, at the the UP's then 24th Street yards which are now part of the parking lot for Coors Stadium, if not part of that sports facility itself. That night I ran my hand along the vertical ribs and found a secret that the Ambroid people would be hard-pressed to add in their model (I have one...unbuilt). The vertical ribs were not rectangular across...they flared wide to a wye ("Y") shape toward the outside, if cut from left to right or vice-versa. I doubt that any wood manufacturer could make an isosceles triangular piece of bass wood that small to glue to the sides of the vertical ribs to make that tiny touch of "prototypicality" in HO or O.        Thanks for the info, gentlemen.        John           Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:            I believe TM and later Walthers only did the single sheathed car (mine attached)        Don        don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message -----    From: Louis Greiff <mailto:louie113@...>      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:42 AM    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)    John,     Do you recall if your WAG boxcar was outside braced (dark tuscan red) or all-wood (orange and cream color)?  I believe that both were made on TM bodies, but the all-wood car was a special run with decal lettering.  The exact name of this railroad was the Wellsville, Addison, and Galeton.  It was a short line that took over a former B&O branch running from northern Pennsylvania into the Southern Tier of New York State where it interchanged with the Erie at Wellsville, NY.  Actually, two of the three towns in the railroad’s name (Wellsville and Addison are in New York State, with Galeton being the only Pennsylvania town).  The 1972 Hurricane Agnes floods ended New York State operations for good, and the railroaded ended operations altogether in the late 70s or early 80s.  In the 70s the TM cars were the only WAG equipment commercially available as far as I know, although Walthers did make the decals for the boxcars.  And I’m not surprised that you saw WAG cars in Colorado because they traveled all over the U. S. and in Canada too  (WAG interchanged with the New York Central as well as with the Erie).  The orange and cream box cars were in LCL service and never left the property.  Since those days, the WAG has become somewhat of a cult railroad, believe it or not.  Two versions of the OB boxcars are available today as special runs on Accurail bodies, and a couple of years ago one of the brass outfits (Overland I think) produced beautifully decorated O and HO models of a distinctive WAG locomotive, a 125 ton GE center cab switcher.  WAG bought 7 of them used from the Ford Motor Company.  The brass loco retailed for around $600.00, and the run was completely sold out.  Stewart mass produced WAG F-7s for several years (maybe Bowser still does) in at least three different road numbers.  WAG bought most of the F-7s from SP and one B unit from WP which it used for parts.  I have two WAG cars fro! m the 19 70s on my freight car roster too, and they are still in service on my layout.  The Accurail cars look more like the real thing, however.     Best wishes.                                                                                                                                             Lou      Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5274	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/10/2008
Subject: Re: From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories)

One thing about the TM cars is that most of the "house" cars are based on a single set of body dimensions.  On the tour when I visited the plant, they showed us how the different sides, ends, and roofs interchanged in the dies--sort of like the way MDC's metal cars could be varied.  So the dimensions could not be considered accurate.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories) I believe TM and later Walthers only did the single sheathed car (mine attached)   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] From TM to Prototype Sighting (was: Train-Miniature Memories) John,     Do you recall if your WAG boxcar was outside braced (dark tuscan red) or all-wood (orange and cream color)?  I believe that both were made on TM bodies, but the all-wood car was a special run with decal lettering.  The exact name of this railroad was the Wellsville, Addison, and Galeton.  It was a short line that took over a former B&O branch running from northern Pennsylvania into the Southern Tier of New York State where it interchanged with the Erie at Wellsville, NY.  Actually, two of the three towns in the railroad’s name (Wellsville and Addison are in New York State, with Galeton being the only Pennsylvania town).  The 1972 Hurricane Agnes floods ended New York State operations for good, and the railroaded ended operations altogether in the late 70s or early 80s.  In the 70s the TM cars were the only WAG equipment commercially available as far as I know, although Walthers did make the decals for the boxcars.  And I’m not surprised that you saw WAG cars in Colorado because they traveled all over the U. S. and in Canada too  (WAG interchanged with the New York Central as well as with the Erie).  The orange and cream box cars were in LCL service and never left the property.  Since those days, the WAG has become somewhat of a cult railroad, believe it or not.  Two versions of the OB boxcars are available today as special runs on Accurail bodies, and a couple of years ago one of the brass outfits (Overland I think) produced beautifully decorated O and HO models of a distinctive WAG locomotive, a 125 ton GE center cab switcher.  WAG bought 7 of them used from the Ford Motor Company.  The brass loco retailed for around $600.00, and the run was completely sold out.  Stewart mass produced WAG F-7s for several years (maybe Bowser still does) in at least three different road numbers.  WAG bought most of the F-7s from SP and one B unit from WP which it used for parts.  I have two WAG cars fro! m the 19 70s on my freight car roster too, and they are still in service on my layout.  The Accurail cars look more like the real thing, however.     Best wishes.                                                                                                                                             Lou

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5275	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

Attachments : Hi All, Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, Russ, and others about. I thought the group as a whole might be interested in the car and also in the water tower behind it. It's built from an Alexander kit that I bought in the mid 50s when I was in high school and just got around to building about a year ago. It's a sweet kit to put together as is the Alexander pillar crane and platform. Fortunately many of Alexander structures show up at train meets and often at reasonable prices. Best wishes.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5276	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

Louis-neat car, very unusual.  Looks to be in wonderful shape.   I have one of those water towers-bought many years ago and still on my layout (it is my “main line” water tower).  As with many of the old kits, take your time and they turn out remarkably nice structures.  Nice work!   JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Louis Greiff Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 11:25 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower   Hi All, Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, Russ, and others about. I thought the group as a whole might be interested in the car and also in the water tower behind it. It's built from an Alexander kit that I bought in the mid 50s when I was in high school and just got around to building about a year ago. It's a sweet kit to put together as is the Alexander pillar crane and platform. Fortunately many of Alexander structures show up at train meets and often at reasonable prices. Best wishes.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5277	From: MaryAnn Obuch	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Items Forsale

I have some items forsale, Contact me off list for copy.   Yours Truly, Maryann Obuch I have some HO Items Forsale Ask for my list.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5278	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /Maryann's Files/HO Scale Items Forsale.doc Uploaded by : arti_obuch <maobuch@...> Description : HO Scale Items Up For Sale You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Maryann%27s%20Files/HO%20Scale%20Items%20Forsale.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, arti_obuch <maobuch@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5279	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /Maryann's Files/Wooden and Metal Kits.doc Uploaded by : arti_obuch <maobuch@...> Description : Wooden AND Metal Kits You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Maryann%27s%20Files/Wooden%20and%20Metal%20Kits.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, arti_obuch <maobuch@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5280	From: Maryann	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: HO Scale Items Forsale

Hi to all... I have made a folder called Maryann's List and you can now find my two lists in the folder. You can contact me off list to see what's still on hand. Knowing this group it won't last too long before I have sold most of what's left over!!! Yours Truly, Ms. Maryann Obuch... Not leaving the hobby, just going up to S From HO!!!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5281	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

Hi Jerry,     At least one of our members, Russ, has an identical GN boxcar and says it’s a Tenshodo car.  They did import a lot of GN stuff.  Russ attatched a photo of his car, and it appears to be the same as mine.  I absolutely agree with your comments on the older kits.  I’ve put together a few present-day laser kits with peel and stick construction.  They may make the builder look good, but truth be told they are far less challenging than the older kits and, in my opinion, less enjoyable to put together.  I enjoy my models to the extent that I invest myself into them.  The two structure projects I’ve enjoyed the most are the Alexander water tower and the pillar crane and platform by the same maker.     Best wishes, and happy railroading.                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 2/11/08 2:18 PM, "Jerry Garteiser" <jerryg@...> wrote:     Louis-neat car, very unusual.  Looks to be in wonderful shape.   I have one of those water towers-bought many years ago and still on my layout (it is my “main line” water tower).  As with many of the old kits, take your time and they turn out remarkably nice structures.  Nice work!   JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Louis Greiff Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 11:25 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower Hi All, Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, Russ, and others about. I thought the group as a whole might be interested in the car and also in the water tower behind it. It's built from an Alexander kit that I bought in the mid 50s when I was in high school and just got around to building about a year ago. It's a sweet kit to put together as is the Alexander pillar crane and platform. Fortunately many of Alexander structures show up at train meets and often at reasonable prices. Best wishes.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5282	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

H'lo All...a nit-picky taxonomic question....   Does anyone have a known New One Model Works boxcar for comparison with Lou's GN 10094 car? I thought it likely to be Tenshodo...I have the same or a very close car which came in a batch of 'Tenshodo' wins last year. Checking Larry's HO-Seeker site, there is a New One reefer build sheet, but no boxcar as yet. New One kit cars came in those flat gold 'alligator-skin' boxes....also into Canada labelled 'Pacific Pike'.   Tenshodo may well have subbed out contract work to New One....rayzef? Any clues?   Sleuthing'r'us... Chrs! Russ ----- Original Message ---- From: Louis Greiff louie113@... Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, Russ, and others about. . Recent Activity  2 New Members  11 New Photos Visit Your Group Yahoo! News Kevin Sites Get coverage of world crises. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search can help increase your site traffic. Special K Group on Yahoo! Groups Join the challenge and lose weight. Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5283	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: dating the Tenshodo/New One GN car

Forgot to mention...and this is one for the WWII Pacific Theatre veterans...my GN 10094 was bought assembled in Tokyo 'sometime' after the war, and wrapped in a page of 'Pacific Stars and Stripes' Tokyo-Yokohama edition 'Unofficial publication of United States Forces Far East'. The date corner is missing from the page, but it's Vol. 10 No. 181. All the articles are dated July 1, but no year.   If anyone can provide a date for this Vol and issue, that will pin down the approximate build-year of Lou's/my respective cars...I would guess very early 50's, if not earlier.   In anticipation! Russ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5284	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Greiff" <louie113@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 11:25 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower > Hi All, > > Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, > Russ, and others about. I thought the group as a whole might be > interested > in the car and also in the water tower behind it. It's built from an > Alexander kit that I bought in the mid 50s when I was in high school and > just got around to building about a year ago. It's a sweet kit to put > together as is the Alexander pillar crane and platform. Fortunately many > of > Alexander structures show up at train meets and often at reasonable > prices. > Best wishes. A few of the Alexander items are still being made today by Tomar. I have a "Little hook" Brownhoist pillar crane on the workbench right now. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5285	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

I did several of those fancy GN paint jobs many years ago--my favorite was the green and orange. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Greiff" <louie113@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:25 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower > Hi All, > > Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, > Russ, and others about. I thought the group as a whole might be > interested > in the car and also in the water tower behind it. It's built from an > Alexander kit that I bought in the mid 50s when I was in high school and > just got around to building about a year ago. It's a sweet kit to put > together as is the Alexander pillar crane and platform. Fortunately many > of > Alexander structures show up at train meets and often at reasonable > prices. > Best wishes. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5286	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

Hi Russ,     “New One” threw me off, but when you wrote “flat gold ‘allegator-skin boxes,” I knew exactly what you meant.  I call them International or IMP cars and have several still in their boxes and internal wrappings that I bought new at their offices on Union Square in Manhattan.  That office and tiny show room used to be within walking distance of where I went to high school and, come to think of it, college.  I just took a look at the instruction sheet in one of my kits, and at the bottom it says “New One Model Toy Works Ltd.” Tokyo Japan.  The car I’m looking at (a Pennsy 40’ single-door boxcar) has cast, soft metal doors, but Ray writes that he has examples with sheet-metal doors, which the GN car has as well.  While my GN car has features like the IMP, it’s not exactly the same in some small details.  The sides attach to the floor differently, for one thing.  Also the IMP/New One cars had holes for the hand grabs that were much too large.  My GN car has much smaller hand grab holes, about the same as Athearn.  Your photo seemed to show an exact match for my car.  I don’t have a Tenshodo car that I can look at “in person,” however, and don’t believe I’ve ever even seen one and knew it was Tenshodo.                                                                                                                                     Lou On 2/11/08 6:46 PM, "Russ Shiel" <rshiel01@...> wrote:     H'lo All...a nit-picky taxonomic question....   Does anyone have a known New One Model Works boxcar for comparison with Lou's GN 10094 car? I thought it likely to be Tenshodo...I have the same or a very close car which came in a batch of 'Tenshodo' wins last year. Checking Larry's HO-Seeker site, there is a New One reefer build sheet, but no boxcar as yet. New One kit cars came in those flat gold 'alligator-skin' boxes....also into Canada labelled 'Pacific Pike'.   Tenshodo may well have subbed out contract work to New One....rayzef? Any clues?   Sleuthing'r'us... Chrs! Russ ----- Original Message ---- From: Louis Greiff louie113@... Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, Russ, and others about. . Recent Activity 2 New Members <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJnOXNnbHNrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2bWJycwRzdGltZQMxMjAyNzUwNjQ4> 11 New Photos <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJnbWNmNHRkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2cGhvdARzdGltZQMxMjAyNzUwNjQ4> Visit Your Group <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO;_ylc=X3oDMTJmc3JhYzFnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEyMDI3NTA2NDg-> Yahoo! News Kevin Sites <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ohv1lpq/M=493064.12016309.12445701.8674578/D=groups/S=1706043014:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1202757849/L=/B=rwK8DkJe5tI-/J=1202750649029042/A=3848607/R=0/SIG=10q7s9jm5/*http://hotzone.yahoo.com> Get coverage of world crises. Drive Traffic Sponsored Search <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ob150n3/M=493064.12016255.12445662.8674578/D=groups/S=1706043014:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1202757849/L=/B=sAK8DkJe5tI-/J=1202750649029042/A=4025338/R=0/SIG=12jnci1fd/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44092/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/s> can help increase your site traffic. Special K Group on Yahoo! Groups <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13pl43p5q/M=493064.12016300.12445692.11323196/D=groups/S=1706043014:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1202757849/L=/B=sQK8DkJe5tI-/J=1202750649029042/A=5170420/R=0/SIG=11b5gu1oe/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/specialKgroup> Join the challenge and lose weight.       Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address <http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail/?p1=ni&p2=general&p3=tagline&p4=other> .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5287	From: erieberk	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

Hi Lou, We can't go by the notion that Tenshodo imported a lot of GN stuff as the basis for your car being a Tenshodo product, as Tenshodo produced models for a lot of other roads. While I found your car photo very easily, I can't find any photo attached by Russ yet (but still looking). On the other thread, I totally agree with the comments about Alexander Scale Models. I also have the water tank (if its the #RS- 345 CB&Q Water Tank); it looks familiar. I like the construction of these older kits and the way they go together. I have a number of E. Suydam, Campbell and Suncoast structures also, as well as the Alexander #7200 NYC Coaling Station, #7622 NYC Freight Station and the #RS-442 Oil Tank & Rack. There's a sense of accomplishment when you finish one of these and they look very presentable. Am leading up to some revelations concerning your GN Orange boxcar, which I'll include with your previous post. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Jerry, > > At least one of our members, Russ, has an identical GN boxcar and says > it¹s a Tenshodo car. They did import a lot of GN stuff. Russ attatched a > photo of his car, and it appears to be the same as mine. I absolutely agree > with your comments on the older kits. I¹ve put together a few present-day > laser kits with peel and stick construction. They may make the builder look > good, but truth be told they are far less challenging than the older kits > and, in my opinion, less enjoyable to put together. I enjoy my models to > the extent that I invest myself into them. The two structure projects I¹ve > enjoyed the most are the Alexander water tower and the pillar crane and > platform by the same maker. > Best wishes, and happy railroading. > > > Lou Greiff > > > On 2/11/08 2:18 PM, "Jerry Garteiser" <jerryg@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Louis-neat car, very unusual. Looks to be in wonderful shape. I have one of > > those water towers-bought many years ago and still on my layout (it is my > > ³main line² water tower). As with many of the old kits, take your time and > > they turn out remarkably nice structures. Nice work! JerryG > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > > Of Louis Greiff > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 11:25 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, > > Russ, and others about. I thought the group as a whole might be interested > > in the car and also in the water tower behind it. It's built from an > > Alexander kit that I bought in the mid 50s when I was in high school and > > just got around to building about a year ago. It's a sweet kit to put > > together as is the Alexander pillar crane and platform. Fortunately many of > > Alexander structures show up at train meets and often at reasonable prices. > > Best wishes. > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5288	From: erieberk	Date: 2/11/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

Russ, As I replied back to your off-line email, Tenshodo, International (and BTW, also New One) are all the same (they are subsidiaries of each other), and as such, their construction is all the same including the square tabs at the base of the car sides. While New One car kits came in those flat gold "alligator-skin" boxes, so too did both International Model Products and Tenshoso; they ALL came in the IDENTICAL boxes (is that a "clue"?). "Any clues?" -- Yes, the photo of Lou's car is a giveaway of sorts, depending on his further comments when I reply to his more detailed post of this car. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote: > > H'lo All...a nit-picky taxonomic question.... > > Does anyone have a known New One Model Works boxcar for comparison with Lou's GN 10094 car? I thought it likely to be Tenshodo...I have the same or a very close car which came in a batch of 'Tenshodo' wins last year. Checking Larry's HO-Seeker site, there is a New One reefer build sheet, but no boxcar as yet. New One kit cars came in those flat gold 'alligator-skin' boxes....also into Canada labelled 'Pacific Pike'. > > Tenshodo may well have subbed out contract work to New One....rayzef? Any clues? > > Sleuthing'r'us... > Chrs! > Russ > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Louis Greiff louie113@... > Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, > Russ, and others about. .Recent Activity > 2New Members > 11New Photos > Visit Your Group > Yahoo! News > Kevin Sites > Get coverage of > world crises. > Drive Traffic > Sponsored Search > can help increase > your site traffic. > Special K Group > on Yahoo! Groups > Join the challenge > and lose weight. > > > > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. > www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5289	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Freightcar and Water Tower

Hi Lou, Well, as they say, a picture is worth 1000 words! Your GN Orange box car is not painted in the orange that Athearn or Modelmaster used -- they used an unmistakenly darker shade of orange very similar to that used by Varney and MDC. This shade of orange was that used on International Model products (and of course also on Tenshodo and New One); its much lighter. I do seem to also detect some scratches on the orange roof, allowing the bare metal to show through. The extreme shhen to this metal suggests the aluminum roof that was used by International, rather than the steel roof that was used by Athearn. While this is almost conclusive in what I'm about to say, everything now hinges on the those attaching tabs on the bottom edge of the metal sides, which was one deciding factor in originally I.D.ing this car as an Athearn, sight unseen. Your (this) post prompted me to look for and dig out my original mint IMP GN Orange kit, which I have in hand. As noticed immediately upon seeing your photo (and even before finding my kit), your shade of orange is an exact match for International -- it IS exactly the same shade of paint IMP used -- AND the NUMBER MATCHES - 10094 - still wrapped in plastic (cellophane). As found on all IMP boxcars, the roof is unpainted aluminum, with the ends being factory painted (in this case orange). Again, the doors are sheet metal (factory-painted orange as well), and the roofwalk attaches on all IMP boxcars with four pins as you previously descibed. International used a number of differently colored flat (6 1/2" x 3 1/4" x 7/8") boxes for their 40' box car, reefer and stock car kits including the "alligator-skin" boxes, but also in blue, brown, green and yellow. So going by all this, it now all points to this car as being a Tenshodo/IMP product, only hinging on the final I.D. of those tabs, and oh yes, the grab-iron hole size you mentioned. I photo of the underside may help reveal more about those tabs; I already know about the wood floor and cast frame that was used. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > Here's an attached photo of the GN boxcar I've been chatting with Ray, > Russ, and others about. I thought the group as a whole might be interested > in the car and also in the water tower behind it. It's built from an > Alexander kit that I bought in the mid 50s when I was in high school and > just got around to building about a year ago. It's a sweet kit to put > together as is the Alexander pillar crane and platform. Fortunately many of > Alexander structures show up at train meets and often at reasonable prices. > Best wishes. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5290	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Attachments : Hi Ray, Here's a photo of the underside of my car with a clear view of those tabs. The main features of this car that are different from my IMP kits are the size of the hand grab holes, as previously mentioned, and the floor. The floor on the IMP boxcar kit I have on hand is metal, probably aluminum. I seem to recall, however, that some of my IMP metal cars had wood floors. Take care. Lou

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5291	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Hi Lou,  Thanks for sending all the pics.  I looked at your pic of the underside of your car, and particularly noticed the tabs.  Wouldn't you call those tabs square?  I sure would!  This certainly looks like an IMP now, with having square tabs, as I'm sure I'm seeing unless something's screwing up the picture.  As this was one sure key to I.D.ing whether it was Athearn or IMP, it now looks to me all the more like its an IMP, if those tabs are as square as they look to me.  BTW, ALL of my IMP 40' boxcar kits have wood floors with the cast frame -- and I have 16 of them (17, counting the C&O Aluminum.  I'm not sure about my C&O Aluminum box (it may have an aluminum floor (or may not); I'm only going by what Globe did for their C&O and RI Aluminum cars; I'd have to check it.  My 40' and 50' IMP auto cars also have wood floors.  Not saying that a metal floor was never used but I've never seen one and really have my doubts.  The position of your tabs also line up with Russ' car.  One other thing I just now noticed on your car; the wheelsets are brass with unpainted side frames.  IMP had the same trucks, Athearn never did..   I wasn't aware Russ lived in South Australia.  108 o is a bit hot, I hope our Summer doesn't get that bad!   BTW, I need to correct that the aluminum car ends in IMP kits are factory painted -- they're not (only the doors are).  I don't know what made me write that, but then I wrote that around 3 in the morning.  Regards,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5292	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: GN Metal Boxcar

Attachments : Hi Ray, I think if you look back at my first email about the GN car you'll see that I described the bottom tabs as square shaped. The confusion, I think, is that the bottom configuration of this car is different from the IMP cars I'm familiar with. As you've said, a picture is worth a whole lot of language, so have a look at the three photos attached to this email. Two show an IMP PRR 40' boxcar that I began to add details to years ago. Specifically I was replacing the crude IMP AB castings with more recent and more accurately detailed parts. But the car floor and underframe are original IMP parts. The underframe is cast metal, but the floor is sheet metal, probably aluminum. The second photo of the same car shows the cast metal doors. The third photo is of the bottom of a built-up UP 40' boxcar of the same construction as the PRR kit. What I hope shows up is that the tabs on the UP car are not lined up opposite one another side to side as they are on the GN car. Also, they attach to the metal floor with small metric machine screws. It seems that IMP, like Athearn, offered more than one generation of metal cars. Right now I have three unbuilt IMP house car kits--an SP OB boxcar with a wooden floor and die cast metal doors. The car sides are also wood, and the side braces are one-piece pre painted metal castings. I also have one 50' auto car with a wooden floor and sheet metal doors (not brass). My third kit is the PRR boxcar pictured in the first two photos. There was a time when I had twenty or more of these cars, all badly put together and brush painted by a kid (me), but where are they today? I never throw anything out, so they're in storage somewhere, but I'd have no idea where to start looking! Best wishes. Lou

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5293	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: GN Metal Boxcar

Hi Lou, Looks like we both got temporarily confused, you with not being familiar with the bottom configuration of IMP cars you're familiar with, and my not reading your first post right -- I should have re-read it to make sure I understood it better, but then, I thought I did understand it. When you wrote that each side is fastened to the car floor with brads nailed though square shaped tabs, this method as being IMP's did come back to me. But then, when you went on to say that International cars didn't have side tabs that attach to the car floor, I took that as meaning you were saying your car didn't have these square side tabs (which of course they do), and I then took it that it couldn't be an IMP car. This is why I stated in my very next post that if your sides had that (square tabs), you'd notice it right away. -- figuring you didn't see any square tabs. Then in a subsequent post, I went on to say that IMP has those square tabs, so that rules that mfr out; meaning that since your car didn't have square tabs (as I thought), then that would rule IMP out as being the mfr. Too bad you didn't catch the mix-up right there, but I was probably confusing you as much as I was being confused (my own fault there). Anyway, its good you posted the pics -- can't ever go wrong with looking at the actual car. No doubt your confusion came with being familiar with IMP's metal floor attached with machine screws (sounds similar to Mantua). As I said, I've only seen wood floors on IMP. I have seen (I have) variations of the square tab position though, just like on your UP car, so they did have variations in their metal cars although even these kits (of mine) have wood floors. Best, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I think if you look back at my first email about the GN car you'll see > that I described the bottom tabs as square shaped. The confusion, I think, > is that the bottom configuration of this car is different from the IMP cars > I'm familiar with. As you've said, a picture is worth a whole lot of > language, so have a look at the three photos attached to this email. Two > show an IMP PRR 40' boxcar that I began to add details to years ago. > Specifically I was replacing the crude IMP AB castings with more recent and > more accurately detailed parts. But the car floor and underframe are > original IMP parts. The underframe is cast metal, but the floor is sheet > metal, probably aluminum. The second photo of the same car shows the cast > metal doors. The third photo is of the bottom of a built-up UP 40' boxcar > of the same construction as the PRR kit. What I hope shows up is that the > tabs on the UP car are not lined up opposite one another side to side as > they are on the GN car. Also, they attach to the metal floor with small > metric machine screws. > It seems that IMP, like Athearn, offered more than one generation of > metal cars. Right now I have three unbuilt IMP house car kits--an SP OB > boxcar with a wooden floor and die cast metal doors. The car sides are also > wood, and the side braces are one-piece pre painted metal castings. I also > have one 50' auto car with a wooden floor and sheet metal doors (not brass). > My third kit is the PRR boxcar pictured in the first two photos. > There was a time when I had twenty or more of these cars, all badly put > together and brush painted by a kid (me), but where are they today? I never > throw anything out, so they're in storage somewhere, but I'd have no idea > where to start looking! > Best wishes. > > Lou >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5294	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Hi All, IMP Car!  To me the key to identifying an IMP car is the cast underframe.  I bought my first IMP kit about 1955 (yes, 1955) and I noted the unique frame.  For all these years I have used the frame as the identifying part of the car.  I no longer have my original car, but have many others. Garry Spear On 2/12/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: Hi Lou,  Thanks for sending all the pics.  I looked at your pic of the underside of your car, and particularly noticed the tabs.  Wouldn't you call those tabs square?  I sure would!  This certainly looks like an IMP now, with having square tabs, as I'm sure I'm seeing unless something's screwing up the picture.  As this was one sure key to I.D.ing whether it was Athearn or IMP, it now looks to me all the more like its an IMP, if those tabs are as square as they look to me.  BTW, ALL of my IMP 40' boxcar kits have wood floors with the cast frame -- and I have 16 of them (17, counting the C&O Aluminum.  I'm not sure about my C&O Aluminum box (it may have an aluminum floor (or may not); I'm only going by what Globe did for their C&O and RI Aluminum cars; I'd have to check it.  My 40' and 50' IMP auto cars also have wood floors.  Not saying that a metal floor was never used but I've never seen one and really have my doubts.  The position of your tabs also line up with Russ' car.  One other thing I just now noticed on your car; the wheelsets are brass with unpainted side frames.  IMP had the same trucks, Athearn never did..   I wasn't aware Russ lived in South Australia.  108 o is a bit hot, I hope our Summer doesn't get that bad!   BTW, I need to correct that the aluminum car ends in IMP kits are factory painted -- they're not (only the doors are).  I don't know what made me write that, but then I wrote that around 3 in the morning.  Regards,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5295	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: GN Metal Boxcar

Lou, As I said, up until now, I was not aware that any of IMP's kits had a metal floor. Can I assume that your PRR box car came as factory built and not as a kit? I should have looked at my IMP catalogs to shed further light on everything. While my 1952 IMP catalog does include factory-built cars as well as kits, they do not offer any box cars (or reefers) as being built up at this time. However, my 1956 IMP catalog does offer built-up ("Kustom-Bilts") box cars (only), in 23 different road names including PRR, which was never offered as a kit (at least not in those years, and quite possibly not at all). This series is advertised as "ALL METAL." I should have checked my collection further as, although I don't have the PRR, I do have the NYC Pacemaker (and a few others) as factory builts, which would have the metal floor. This would have brought back my memories of this construction, but its been many years since I last looked at these cars. They came in a larger (naturally) box, in the "alligator-skin" finish. Best, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I think if you look back at my first email about the GN car you'll see > that I described the bottom tabs as square shaped. The confusion, I think, > is that the bottom configuration of this car is different from the IMP cars > I'm familiar with. As you've said, a picture is worth a whole lot of > language, so have a look at the three photos attached to this email. Two > show an IMP PRR 40' boxcar that I began to add details to years ago. > Specifically I was replacing the crude IMP AB castings with more recent and > more accurately detailed parts. But the car floor and underframe are > original IMP parts. The underframe is cast metal, but the floor is sheet > metal, probably aluminum. The second photo of the same car shows the cast > metal doors. The third photo is of the bottom of a built-up UP 40' boxcar > of the same construction as the PRR kit. What I hope shows up is that the > tabs on the UP car are not lined up opposite one another side to side as > they are on the GN car. Also, they attach to the metal floor with small > metric machine screws. > It seems that IMP, like Athearn, offered more than one generation of > metal cars. Right now I have three unbuilt IMP house car kits--an SP OB > boxcar with a wooden floor and die cast metal doors. The car sides are also > wood, and the side braces are one-piece pre painted metal castings. I also > have one 50' auto car with a wooden floor and sheet metal doors (not brass). > My third kit is the PRR boxcar pictured in the first two photos. > There was a time when I had twenty or more of these cars, all badly put > together and brush painted by a kid (me), but where are they today? I never > throw anything out, so they're in storage somewhere, but I'd have no idea > where to start looking! > Best wishes. > > Lou >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5296	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Hi Garry, As you've no doubt been reading, I too am used to identifying IMP cars by their metal underframe, and am not meaning to imply in any way you're wrong. You're quite right in pointing out the metal underframe as belonging to IMP. But, just as I've done, you've forgotten about or may not have been aware of IMP's "Kustom- Bilt" line of cars, which I just mentioned in my previous post. It may well be that they only first came out in 1956 (the catalog I see them in), after you bought your IMPs but I don't have all their earlier catalogs to show this if they did. The built up box cars were all metal. BTW, before I go any further, I need to correct myself in that IMP did make built up reefers in 1956, in 14 road names; I overlooked that with reading in dim light. I presume the kits are more numerous (when they are found) since the box car kits went for $1.25 (would that be about $12.50 in today's money?), whereas the built up ("Kustom-Bilts") box cars went for $3.50 (maybe $35.00 in today's money?). The built ups did come with trucks though at this time, and the kits did not, but trucks may have gone for no more than 50 cents a pair (I really don't remember that). I believe later kits must have come with trucks, as some of my kits include them. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > IMP Car! To me the key to identifying an IMP car is the cast underframe. I > bought my first IMP kit about 1955 (yes, 1955) and I noted the unique > frame. For all these years I have used the frame as the identifying part of > the car. I no longer have my original car, but have many others. > > Garry Spear > > On 2/12/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Lou, Thanks for sending all the pics. I looked at your pic of the > > underside of your car, and particularly noticed the tabs. Wouldn't you call > > those tabs square? I sure would! This certainly looks like an IMP now, > > with having square tabs, as I'm sure I'm seeing unless something's screwing > > up the picture. As this was one sure key to I.D.ing whether it was > > Athearn or IMP, it now looks to me all the more like its an IMP, if those > > tabs are as square as they look to me. BTW, ALL of my IMP 40' boxcar kits > > have wood floors with the cast frame -- and I have 16 of them (17, counting > > the C&O Aluminum. I'm not sure about my C&O Aluminum box (it may have an > > aluminum floor (or may not); I'm only going by what Globe did for their C&O > > and RI Aluminum cars; I'd have to check it. My 40' and 50' IMP auto cars > > also have wood floors. Not saying that a metal floor was never used but > > I've never seen one and really have my doubts. The position of your tabs > > also line up with Russ' car. One other thing I just now noticed on your > > car; the wheelsets are brass with unpainted side frames. IMP had the same > > trucks, Athearn never did.. > > > > I wasn't aware Russ lived in South Australia. 108 o is a bit hot, I hope > > our Summer doesn't get that bad! BTW, I need to correct that the aluminum > > car ends in IMP kits are factory painted -- they're not (only the doors > > are). I don't know what made me write that, but then I wrote that around 3 > > in the morning. Regards, Ray > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5297	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Kar-Line

Hi Al, Although I don't know when New England Models first came out, from what I've seen of them they're excellent models and well worth the money. I'm tending to think they came out in the mid 1980's but I may be way off base there. Not that their production date matters all that much; I don't collect Kar-Line because they're vintage. I don't think we could consider them that yet, but they are unique. I don't have any plans on collecting New England Models though. Red Caboose Models and Kadee make nice plastic kits, as are Branchline's, but as I've stated I'm not into plastic that much. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@...> wrote: > > Hello Ray: Thank you for your response to my inquiry about Kar-Line. > Any opinions about New England Models? Regards , Al >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5298	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: GN Metal Boxcar

Hi Ray,     I’m glad we’re all finally on the same page re the GN car.  I knew that my IMP cars had tabs that did not line up from side to side (as they do on the GN car), but without checking I remembered these tabs as rounded like Varney’s and not square.  Like you, I had not looked at an IMP car built or unbuilt for years until last week.  All of my IMP cars were bought as kits including the all-metal boxcars; none were factory built.  As you can see from the photo of the PRR car, the kit sides are still in their unopened cellophane packaging.  I went from tinplate to HO in high school (1953-1956), but I can’t say which exact year I bought these kits.  I bought all of them at the IMP showroom on Union Square along with a PFE reefer which I still have in kit form but forgot to mention in my last email.  The reefer has a wood floor (just looked).  Unfortunately, I sold some of my other IMP cars (open-ended coaches and Gerber reefer), and, as mentioned before, the several boxcar kits I built are still around the house somewhere.  My only other IMP car is a depressed-center flatcar kit made of wood and metal castings.  It’s in a flat orange-colored box, and I picked it up for very little at a train meet.     I have the original instruction sheet for the all-metal PRR boxcar kit.  It contains very little text but exploded views of the parts clearly showing how they are fastened together.  If there’s a way I can send you a photocopy, I’d be happy to do so.     All best.                                                                                                                                         Lou On 2/12/08 4:24 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Lou,  As I said, up until now, I was not aware that any of IMP's kits had a metal floor.  Can I assume that your PRR box car came as factory built and not as a kit?  I should have looked at my IMP catalogs to shed further light on everything.  While my 1952 IMP catalog does include factory-built cars as well as kits, they do not offer any box cars (or reefers) as being built up at this time. However, my 1956 IMP catalog does offer built-up ("Kustom-Bilts") box cars (only), in 23 different road names including PRR, which was never offered as a kit (at least not in those years, and quite possibly not at all).  This series is advertised as "ALL METAL."  I should have checked my collection further as, although I don't have the PRR, I do have the NYC Pacemaker (and a few others) as factory builts, which would have the metal floor.  This would have brought back my memories of this construction, but its been many years since I last looked at these cars.  They came in a larger (naturally) box, in the "alligator-skin" finish.   Best,    Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > >     I think if you look back at my first email about the GN car you'll see > that I described the bottom tabs as square shaped.  The confusion, I think, > is that the bottom configuration of this car is different from the IMP cars > I'm familiar with.  As you've said, a picture is worth a whole lot of > language, so have a look at the three photos attached to this email.  Two > show an IMP PRR 40' boxcar that I began to add details to years ago. > Specifically I was replacing the crude IMP AB castings with more recent and > more accurately detailed parts.  But the car floor and underframe are > original IMP parts.  The underframe is cast metal, but the floor is sheet > metal, probably aluminum.  The second photo of the same car shows the cast > metal doors.  The third photo is of the bottom of a built-up UP 40' boxcar > of the same construction as the PRR kit.  What I hope shows up is that the > tabs on the UP car are not lined up opposite one another side to side as > they are on the GN car.  Also, they attach to the metal floor with small > metric machine screws. >     It seems that IMP, like Athearn, offered more than one generation of > metal cars.  Right now I have three unbuilt IMP house car kits--an SP OB > boxcar with a wooden floor and die cast metal doors.  The car sides are also > wood, and the side braces are one-piece pre painted metal castings.  I also > have one 50' auto car with a wooden floor and sheet metal doors (not brass). > My third kit is the PRR boxcar pictured in the first two photos. >     There was a time when I had twenty or more of these cars, all badly put > together and brush painted by a kid (me), but where are they today?  I never > throw anything out, so they're in storage somewhere, but I'd have no idea > where to start looking! >     Best wishes. > >                                         Lou >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5299	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

FWIW, it looks identical to the two IMP's I have also.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Garry Spear To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo Hi All, IMP Car!  To me the key to identifying an IMP car is the cast underframe.  I bought my first IMP kit about 1955 (yes, 1955) and I noted the unique frame.  For all these years I have used the frame as the identifying part of the car.  I no longer have my original car, but have many others. Garry Spear On 2/12/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: Hi Lou,  Thanks for sending all the pics.  I looked at your pic of the underside of your car, and particularly noticed the tabs.  Wouldn't you call those tabs square?  I sure would!  This certainly looks like an IMP now, with having square tabs, as I'm sure I'm seeing unless something's screwing up the picture.  As this was one sure key to I.D.ing whether it was Athearn or IMP, it now looks to me all the more like its an IMP, if those tabs are as square as they look to me.  BTW, ALL of my IMP 40' boxcar kits have wood floors with the cast frame -- and I have 16 of them (17, counting the C&O Aluminum.  I'm not sure about my C&O Aluminum box (it may have an aluminum floor (or may not); I'm only going by what Globe did for their C&O and RI Aluminum cars; I'd have to check it.  My 40' and 50' IMP auto cars also have wood floors.  Not saying that a metal floor was never used but I've never seen one and really have my doubts.  The position of your tabs also line up with Russ' car.  One other thing I just now noticed on your car; the wheelsets are brass with unpainted side frames.  IMP had the same trucks, Athearn never did..   I wasn't aware Russ lived in South Australia.  108 o is a bit hot, I hope our Summer doesn't get that bad!   BTW, I need to correct that the aluminum car ends in IMP kits are factory painted -- they're not (only the doors are).  I don't know what made me write that, but then I wrote that around 3 in the morning.  Regards,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5300	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: GN Metal Boxcar

Hey Lou, Well, it looks like we at least finally I.D.ed this car, that's the main thing. Interesting that you should say your all- metal box cars were kits, but then why should that surprize us (LOL). I can say though, that the PRR box car is definitely not listed in either of the two (1952 & 1956) IMP catalogs that I have, offered as a kit. The UP box car is offered as a kit in both the 1952 and the 1956 IMP catalog, but these kits are supposed to have the wood floors. I guess as long as they had all the components, they can offer these kits in any form they choose to. I have an IMP 40' SSW (with "Blue Streak" logo) box car which isn't listed at all, but may have been listed in other years. The same my have been the case with yours, since they came planned with an instruction sheet they weren't just thrown together. I remember you telling me you bought them at the IMP showroom on Union Square (33 Union Square West) in New York. While we can't say definitely, it is starting to appear as if their offerings changed slightly in different years. I note you have the depressed center flat car. They made a number of interesting cars, with many of the more unusual as factory built, or in some instances, in both forms. Regards, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I¹m glad we¹re all finally on the same page re the GN car. I knew that > my IMP cars had tabs that did not line up from side to side (as they do on > the GN car), but without checking I remembered these tabs as rounded like > Varney¹s and not square. Like you, I had not looked at an IMP car built or > unbuilt for years until last week. All of my IMP cars were bought as kits > including the all-metal boxcars; none were factory built. As you can see > from the photo of the PRR car, the kit sides are still in their unopened > cellophane packaging. I went from tinplate to HO in high school > (1953-1956), but I can¹t say which exact year I bought these kits. I bought > all of them at the IMP showroom on Union Square along with a PFE reefer > which I still have in kit form but forgot to mention in my last email. The > reefer has a wood floor (just looked). Unfortunately, I sold some of my > other IMP cars (open-ended coaches and Gerber reefer), and, as mentioned > before, the several boxcar kits I built are still around the house > somewhere. My only other IMP car is a depressed-center flatcar kit made of > wood and metal castings. It¹s in a flat orange-colored box, and I picked it > up for very little at a train meet. > I have the original instruction sheet for the all-metal PRR boxcar kit. > It contains very little text but exploded views of the parts clearly showing > how they are fastened together. If there¹s a way I can send you a > photocopy, I¹d be happy to do so. > All best. > > > Lou > > > On 2/12/08 4:24 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Lou, As I said, up until now, I was not aware that any of IMP's kits > > had a metal floor. Can I assume that your PRR box car came as > > factory built and not as a kit? I should have looked at my IMP > > catalogs to shed further light on everything. While my 1952 IMP > > catalog does include factory-built cars as well as kits, they do not > > offer any box cars (or reefers) as being built up at this time. > > > > However, my 1956 IMP catalog does offer built-up ("Kustom-Bilts") box > > cars (only), in 23 different road names including PRR, which was > > never offered as a kit (at least not in those years, and quite > > possibly not at all). This series is advertised as "ALL METAL." I > > should have checked my collection further as, although I don't have > > the PRR, I do have the NYC Pacemaker (and a few others) as factory > > builts, which would have the metal floor. This would have brought > > back my memories of this construction, but its been many years since > > I last looked at these cars. They came in a larger (naturally) box, > > in the "alligator-skin" finish. Best, Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Ray, > >> > > >> > I think if you look back at my first email about the GN car > > you'll see > >> > that I described the bottom tabs as square shaped. The confusion, > > I think, > >> > is that the bottom configuration of this car is different from the > > IMP cars > >> > I'm familiar with. As you've said, a picture is worth a whole lot > > of > >> > language, so have a look at the three photos attached to this > > email. Two > >> > show an IMP PRR 40' boxcar that I began to add details to years ago. > >> > Specifically I was replacing the crude IMP AB castings with more > > recent and > >> > more accurately detailed parts. But the car floor and underframe > > are > >> > original IMP parts. The underframe is cast metal, but the floor is > > sheet > >> > metal, probably aluminum. The second photo of the same car shows > > the cast > >> > metal doors. The third photo is of the bottom of a built-up UP 40' > > boxcar > >> > of the same construction as the PRR kit. What I hope shows up is > > that the > >> > tabs on the UP car are not lined up opposite one another side to > > side as > >> > they are on the GN car. Also, they attach to the metal floor with > > small > >> > metric machine screws. > >> > It seems that IMP, like Athearn, offered more than one > > generation of > >> > metal cars. Right now I have three unbuilt IMP house car kits- -an > > SP OB > >> > boxcar with a wooden floor and die cast metal doors. The car sides > > are also > >> > wood, and the side braces are one-piece pre painted metal > > castings. I also > >> > have one 50' auto car with a wooden floor and sheet metal doors > > (not brass). > >> > My third kit is the PRR boxcar pictured in the first two photos. > >> > There was a time when I had twenty or more of these cars, all > > badly put > >> > together and brush painted by a kid (me), but where are they > > today? I never > >> > throw anything out, so they're in storage somewhere, but I'd have > > no idea > >> > where to start looking! > >> > Best wishes. > >> > > >> > Lou > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5301	From: erieberk	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Okay, the pieces are starting to fall into place. Which ones do you have, Don? Since their made out of sheet aluminum, the ones with the metal floors need to be weighted (they're a bit on the light side) for best operation. I think the NMRA guidelines call for the car weighing 3 1/2 ounces if I'm not mistaken, but its been a while since I've worried about that. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > FWIW, it looks identical to the two IMP's I have also. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Garry Spear > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 3:19 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > > > Hi All, > > IMP Car! To me the key to identifying an IMP car is the cast underframe. I bought my first IMP kit about 1955 (yes, 1955) and I noted the unique frame. For all these years I have used the frame as the identifying part of the car. I no longer have my original car, but have many others. > > Garry Spear > > > On 2/12/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: > Hi Lou, Thanks for sending all the pics. I looked at your pic of the underside of your car, and particularly noticed the tabs. Wouldn't you call those tabs square? I sure would! This certainly looks like an IMP now, with having square tabs, as I'm sure I'm seeing unless something's screwing up the picture. As this was one sure key to I.D.ing whether it was Athearn or IMP, it now looks to me all the more like its an IMP, if those tabs are as square as they look to me. BTW, ALL of my IMP 40' boxcar kits have wood floors with the cast frame -- and I have 16 of them (17, counting the C&O Aluminum. I'm not sure about my C&O Aluminum box (it may have an aluminum floor (or may not); I'm only going by what Globe did for their C&O and RI Aluminum cars; I'd have to check it. My 40' and 50' IMP auto cars also have wood floors. Not saying that a metal floor was never used but I've never seen one and really have my doubts. The position of your tabs also line up with Russ' car. One other thing I just now noticed on your car; the wheelsets are brass with unpainted side frames. IMP had the same trucks, Athearn never did.. > > I wasn't aware Russ lived in South Australia. 108 o is a bit hot, I hope our Summer doesn't get that bad! BTW, I need to correct that the aluminum car ends in IMP kits are factory painted -- they're not (only the doors are). I don't know what made me write that, but then I wrote that around 3 in the morning. Regards, Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5302	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > Okay, the pieces are starting to fall into place. Which ones do you > have, Don? Since their made out of sheet aluminum, the ones with the > metal floors need to be weighted (they're a bit on the light side) > for best operation. I think the NMRA guidelines call for the car > weighing 3 1/2 ounces if I'm not mistaken, but its been a while since > I've worried about that. Ray I have 2 of the box cars WP 20808 in silver ACL 31459 in boxcar red Both are pictired in the "zdon dellmann's stuff" album in the group photo section. I also have an IMP NYC heavyweight coacj that I haven't posted to an album because it's not lettered yet. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5303	From: rayzef	Date: 2/12/2008
Subject: GN Boxcar 10094

Hi All I have a mint kit of the boxcar, it is different to all the Tenshodo kits I own, as it has a machined brass roofwalk. The Tenshodo and most of my New One kits have a diecast roofwalk. The kit has painted metal sides ,unpainted roof and ends, diecast doors, wood body with diecast underframe. The most annoying thing it did not come in its original box, it is in a plain white box marked D&RGW Boxcar .Quite a few of my New One/Tenshodo are also in the same type of box, before Tenshodo started putting on the blue labels. Checking the IMP kits they have diecast roofwalks, so it makes it difficult to pin a make down exact!! I have two ready to run models that are constructed the same, they are in a red color box with gray label, the same as Ken Kidder used but not sure they are Ken Kidder?? Ray Z

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5304	From: erieberk	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

I'll definitely be checking out the album right after this post (you always come up with neat stuff, and/or restore it nicely). The ACL is one of the few I'm missing. I believe that was one of the roads offered early last month, but I failed to place a bid on it. That IMP NYC heavyweight coach is a real gem; NICE FIND! Its in the catalogs as coming with either brass or aluminum sides -- your choice. Its also described as being minutely detailed (& painted), and it lists all the details that went into it; real nice looking car. Does your car have their "famous automatic KUPEEZE" couplers? This was one point I was meaning to bring up earlier in this thread, since there was some discussion on Mantua couplers (or "hook & loop" in general) a few weeks ago. I've never operated with them, but they look like those big hooks would hold even in a long drag. Ugly though, but that was way before Kadee's came along and other choices weren't much better looking. Way back when, I had thought these were the Baker couplers I had only heard about then. Anyone have these on their IMP cars? Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I have 2 of the box cars > WP 20808 in silver > ACL 31459 in boxcar red > > Both are pictired in the "zdon dellmann's stuff" album in the group photo > section. > > I also have an IMP NYC heavyweight coacj that I haven't posted to an album > because it's not lettered yet. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5305	From: erieberk	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: GN Boxcar 10094

Hi Ray, That sure does sound different! And you're sure its all original, or would you suspect some of the parts may have been replaced somewhere along the way? In off-line discussions on these cars, Russ has pointed out that he has 6 built up Tenshodo cars in original white cardboard boxes, so your white box may stand a good chance as being original, especially if the "D&RGW Boxcar" marking matches the contents and was factory printed. Beyond that, Russ may be able to tell you more about this box. If your kit is 100% original, it shows the different variations of them, depending on what materials were most readily available at the time. Can't help you on the possibility of your ready-to-run models being Ken Kidder; I'm not that familiar with all their products, only that they offered trolley cars in the late '70's -- early '80's. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rayzef" <rayzef@...> wrote: > > Hi All > I have a mint kit of the boxcar, it is different to all the Tenshodo > kits I own, as it has a machined brass roofwalk. The Tenshodo and most > of my New One kits have a diecast roofwalk. > The kit has painted metal sides ,unpainted roof and ends, diecast > doors, wood body with diecast underframe. The most annoying thing it > did not come in its original box, it is in a plain white box marked > D&RGW Boxcar .Quite a few of my New One/Tenshodo are also in the same > type of box, before Tenshodo started putting on the blue labels. > Checking the IMP kits they have diecast roofwalks, so it makes it > difficult to pin a make down exact!! > I have two ready to run models that are constructed the same, they are > in a red color box with gray label, the same as Ken Kidder used but > not sure they are Ken Kidder?? > > Ray Z >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5306	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Kupeeze!  I haven’t hear that word in decades.  Every IMP car came with a pair.  I saved them but never used them.  I stuck with the misnamed “NMRA” couplers, then transitioned to Kadee pre-magnetic knuckle couplers when I found out about them.  Now I use Kadee #148 whisker couplers for most applications.  (with couplers, vintage just doesn’t cut it for me).  I’ve tried the Kadee scale couplers for a more prototypical appearance, but find that they don’t interact flawlessly with #5 size knuckles in uncoupling and offsetting operations, and almost my entire fleet of freight cars is equipped with #5s.  If we’re talking purely about appearance, the old Devore couplers can’t be beat in my opinion.                                                                                                                                           Lou On 2/13/08 9:04 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     I'll definitely be checking out the album right after this post (you always come up with neat stuff, and/or restore it nicely).  The ACL is one of the few I'm missing.  I believe that was one of the roads offered early last month, but I failed to place a bid on it. That IMP NYC heavyweight coach is a real gem; NICE FIND!  Its in the catalogs as coming with either brass or aluminum sides -- your choice.  Its also described as being minutely detailed (& painted), and it lists all the details that went into it; real nice looking car. Does your car have their "famous automatic KUPEEZE" couplers?  This was one point I was meaning to bring up earlier in this thread, since there was some discussion on Mantua couplers (or "hook & loop" in general) a few weeks ago.  I've never operated with them, but they look like those big hooks would hold even in a long drag.  Ugly though, but that was way before Kadee's came along and other choices weren't much better looking.  Way back when, I had thought these were the Baker couplers I had only heard about then.  Anyone have these on their IMP cars?  Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I have 2 of the box cars >  WP 20808 in silver >  ACL 31459 in boxcar red > > Both are pictired in the "zdon dellmann's stuff" album in the group photo > section. > > I also have an IMP NYC heavyweight coacj that I haven't posted to an album > because it's not lettered yet. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5307	From: erieberk	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

When it comes to operation, why hinder yourself with any of these old couplers on your vintage equipment just because the couplers are vintage. For shelf displays only, that's a different story. Now Devore couplers -- that's saying something. They're advertised by Roundhouse in their catalogs almost as though they were the best thing since sliced bread, but then why wouldn't they promote them like that. No doubt they were very good couplers, although I've never operated with them, but they sure look like they could have been first generation Kadees. I've used them on test tracks and they do seem pretty good, not to mention their close to prototypical appearance. MDC used them almost exclusively with their metal car kits, except for the very last series of them, like the 40' Flat Cars (F-1 & F-20 and the Economy Box Cars (DB-1, DB-2, DB-3 and DB-4). They're said to couple up with most any dummy coupler and if I remember correctly, they'll couple up just fine with Kadee #5's but I don't know about uncoupling, not having used them on a layout. Unless they do work well with Kadees smoothly, its best not to intermix them, but it is tempting -- they're kind of neat. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Kupeeze! I haven¹t hear that word in decades. Every IMP car came with a > pair. I saved them but never used them. I stuck with the misnamed ³NMRA² > couplers, then transitioned to Kadee pre-magnetic knuckle couplers when I > found out about them. Now I use Kadee #148 whisker couplers for most > applications. (with couplers, vintage just doesn¹t cut it for me). I¹ve > tried the Kadee scale couplers for a more prototypical appearance, but find > that they don¹t interact flawlessly with #5 size knuckles in uncoupling and > offsetting operations, and almost my entire fleet of freight cars is > equipped with #5s. If we¹re talking purely about appearance, the old Devore > couplers can¹t be beat in my opinion. > > > Lou > > > On 2/13/08 9:04 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I'll definitely be checking out the album right after this post (you > > always come up with neat stuff, and/or restore it nicely). The ACL > > is one of the few I'm missing. I believe that was one of the roads > > offered early last month, but I failed to place a bid on it. > > > > That IMP NYC heavyweight coach is a real gem; NICE FIND! Its in the > > catalogs as coming with either brass or aluminum sides -- your > > choice. Its also described as being minutely detailed (& painted), > > and it lists all the details that went into it; real nice looking car. > > > > Does your car have their "famous automatic KUPEEZE" couplers? This > > was one point I was meaning to bring up earlier in this thread, since > > there was some discussion on Mantua couplers (or "hook & loop" in > > general) a few weeks ago. I've never operated with them, but they > > look like those big hooks would hold even in a long drag. Ugly > > though, but that was way before Kadee's came along and other choices > > weren't much better looking. Way back when, I had thought these were > > the Baker couplers I had only heard about then. Anyone have these on > > their IMP cars? Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don > > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > I have 2 of the box cars > >> > WP 20808 in silver > >> > ACL 31459 in boxcar red > >> > > >> > Both are pictired in the "zdon dellmann's stuff" album in the group > > photo > >> > section. > >> > > >> > I also have an IMP NYC heavyweight coacj that I haven't posted to > > an album > >> > because it's not lettered yet. > >> > > >> > Don > >> > > >> > don.dellmann@ > >> > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > >> > Owner-Moderator > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > >> > Co-owner > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5308	From: erieberk	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Alright, I found them; I guess you meant 20807 for the WP. I like the lighter orange IMP used as it breaks up the consist of cars when used with Athearn metal WP's and sets it off as distinct. You could explain it as being built earlier and the paint is more weatherworn. From a slight distance, they sure do resemble the Athearn cars. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I have 2 of the box cars > WP 20808 in silver > ACL 31459 in boxcar red > > Both are pictired in the "zdon dellmann's stuff" album in the group photo > section. > > I also have an IMP NYC heavyweight coacj that I haven't posted to an album > because it's not lettered yet. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5309	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

The "Kupeeze" was a mirror image of the Baker--People used to send them to John Allen, and then to Allan Fenton, as Bakers.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo Kupeeze!  I haven’t hear that word in decades.  Every IMP car came with a pair.  I saved them but never used them.  I stuck with the misnamed “NMRA” couplers, then transitioned to Kadee pre-magnetic knuckle couplers when I found out about them.  Now I use Kadee #148 whisker couplers for most applications.  (with couplers, vintage just doesn’t cut it for me).  I’ve tried the Kadee scale couplers for a more prototypical appearance, but find that they don’t interact flawlessly with #5 size knuckles in uncoupling and offsetting operations, and almost my entire fleet of freight cars is equipped with #5s.  If we’re talking purely about appearance, the old Devore couplers can’t be beat in my opinion.                                                                                                                                           Lou On 2/13/08 9:04 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     I'll definitely be checking out the album right after this post (you always come up with neat stuff, and/or restore it nicely).  The ACL is one of the few I'm missing.  I believe that was one of the roads offered early last month, but I failed to place a bid on it. That IMP NYC heavyweight coach is a real gem; NICE FIND!  Its in the catalogs as coming with either brass or aluminum sides -- your choice.  Its also described as being minutely detailed (& painted), and it lists all the details that went into it; real nice looking car. Does your car have their "famous automatic KUPEEZE" couplers?  This was one point I was meaning to bring up earlier in this thread, since there was some discussion on Mantua couplers (or "hook & loop" in general) a few weeks ago.  I've never operated with them, but they look like those big hooks would hold even in a long drag.  Ugly though, but that was way before Kadee's came along and other choices weren't much better looking.  Way back when, I had thought these were the Baker couplers I had only heard about then.  Anyone have these on their IMP cars?  Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I have 2 of the box cars >  WP 20808 in silver >  ACL 31459 in boxcar red > > Both are pictired in the "zdon dellmann's stuff" album in the group photo > section. > > I also have an IMP NYC heavyweight coacj that I haven't posted to an album > because it's not lettered yet. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5310	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Those operating knuckles in the MDC kits were MDC's own couplers. There were slight differences with Devores. MDC's were a bit sharper detailed. They also made them in O. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:50 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5311	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:04 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > I'll definitely be checking out the album right after this post (you > always come up with neat stuff, and/or restore it nicely). The ACL > is one of the few I'm missing. I believe that was one of the roads > offered early last month, but I failed to place a bid on it. > > That IMP NYC heavyweight coach is a real gem; NICE FIND! Its in the > catalogs as coming with either brass or aluminum sides -- your > choice. Its also described as being minutely detailed (& painted), > and it lists all the details that went into it; real nice looking car. > > Does your car have their "famous automatic KUPEEZE" couplers? This > was one point I was meaning to bring up earlier in this thread, since > there was some discussion on Mantua couplers (or "hook & loop" in > general) a few weeks ago. I've never operated with them, but they > look like those big hooks would hold even in a long drag. Ugly > though, but that was way before Kadee's came along and other choices > weren't much better looking. Way back when, I had thought these were > the Baker couplers I had only heard about then. Anyone have these on > their IMP cars? Ray The ACL car may be the one you saw, The seller was advertising it as "Athearn or Globe", I picked up about a dozen cars from him, all were nice stuff, all in the $5-10 range. The IMP coach was actually an unpainted kit. The sides appeared to be tinplate, just like the Walthers cars, I didn't pay all that much attention. They may have been aluminum. The car is built now of course, I should see if the sides are magnetic. Didn't have the kupeeze couplers, the passenger car was less trucks and couplers, the box car already had Kadees on it when I bought it. I did get some Varney passenger cars once though that had Bakers. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5312	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Was the MDC mechanical knuckle the same as the Devore? I seem to remember Devore as having a magnetic coupler ca. the early 1960's, but the mechanical MDC's were much before that. (It's touted as their own coupler in the 1953 catalog). I actually have a couple of them on the layout. Since I do "gladhandectomies" on my Kadees and uncouple by the "bamboo skewer" method, the MDC's work just as well as Kadees and will coiple up to them. I also have a few old kadee "K" units still running. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo When it comes to operation, why hinder yourself with any of these old couplers on your vintage equipment just because the couplers are vintage. For shelf displays only, that's a different story. Now Devore couplers -- that's saying something. They're advertised by Roundhouse in their catalogs almost as though they were the best thing since sliced bread, but then why wouldn't they promote them like that. No doubt they were very good couplers, although I've never operated with them, but they sure look like they could have been first generation Kadees. I've used them on test tracks and they do seem pretty good, not to mention their close to prototypical appearance. MDC used them almost exclusively with their metal car kits, except for the very last series of them, like the 40' Flat Cars (F-1 & F-20 and the Economy Box Cars (DB-1, DB-2, DB-3 and DB-4). They're said to couple up with most any dummy coupler and if I remember correctly, they'll couple up just fine with Kadee #5's but I don't know about uncoupling, not having used them on a layout. Unless they do work well with Kadees smoothly, its best not to intermix them, but it is tempting -- they're kind of neat. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5313	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Couplers

For my Penn Line Midget diesels, I used the Kadee “K” called out on their old sheet, but switched to the current style glad hand instead of the old pin.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:09 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo   Was the MDC mechanical knuckle the same as the Devore? I seem to remember Devore as having a magnetic coupler ca. the early 1960's, but the mechanical MDC's were much before that. (It's touted as their own coupler in the 1953 catalog). I actually have a couple of them on the layout. Since I do "gladhandectomies" on my Kadees and uncouple by the "bamboo skewer" method, the MDC's work just as well as Kadees and will coiple up to them. I also have a few old kadee "K" units still running. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo When it comes to operation, why hinder yourself with any of these old couplers on your vintage equipment just because the couplers are vintage. For shelf displays only, that's a different story. Now Devore couplers -- that's saying something. They're advertised by Roundhouse in their catalogs almost as though they were the best thing since sliced bread, but then why wouldn't they promote them like that. No doubt they were very good couplers, although I've never operated with them, but they sure look like they could have been first generation Kadees. I've used them on test tracks and they do seem pretty good, not to mention their close to prototypical appearance. MDC used them almost exclusively with their metal car kits, except for the very last series of them, like the 40' Flat Cars (F-1 & F-20 and the Economy Box Cars (DB-1, DB-2, DB-3 and DB-4). They're said to couple up with most any dummy coupler and if I remember correctly, they'll couple up just fine with Kadee #5's but I don't know about uncoupling, not having used them on a layout. Unless they do work well with Kadees smoothly, its best not to intermix them, but it is tempting -- they're kind of neat. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5314	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Don, The MDC coupler consisted of three die castings. The head/shank assy, the knuckle and the pin. They operated pretty much like the prototype as you had to lift the pin to uncouple. By drilling a hole in the top of the pin casting you could work them from the lift bars just like the prototype. The knuckle also had to be pre-opened to couple. The Devore coupler on the other hand worked like a Kadee. Always ready to couple with a nudge. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Was the MDC mechanical knuckle the same as the Devore?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5315	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

I thought that the MDC's were a bit better looking than the Devores. I remember them on a boxcar kit I got for my birthday in October 1948--fairly close to beginning of the boxcar production. Originally had die cast uncoupling pins--later had stamped brass ones. When I got into O Scale in the early sixties I used the MDC O Scale versions--removed the lower part of the pin and operated them with the cut levers.In HO the pin was too light to drop reliably. Even in O they were not reliable unless you took them apart ant polished everything up. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > Was the MDC mechanical knuckle the same as the Devore? I seem to remember > Devore as having a magnetic coupler ca. the early 1960's, but the > mechanical > MDC's were much before that. (It's touted as their own coupler in the 1953 > catalog). I actually have a couple of them on the layout. Since I do > "gladhandectomies" on my Kadees and uncouple by the "bamboo skewer" > method, > the MDC's work just as well as Kadees and will coiple up to them. I also > have a few old kadee "K" units still running. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:50 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > > > When it comes to operation, why hinder yourself with any of these old > couplers on your vintage equipment just because the couplers are > vintage. For shelf displays only, that's a different story. Now > Devore couplers -- that's saying something. They're advertised by > Roundhouse in their catalogs almost as though they were the best > thing since sliced bread, but then why wouldn't they promote them > like that. > > No doubt they were very good couplers, although I've never operated > with them, but they sure look like they could have been first > generation Kadees. I've used them on test tracks and they do seem > pretty good, not to mention their close to prototypical appearance. > MDC used them almost exclusively with their metal car kits, except > for the very last series of them, like the 40' Flat Cars (F-1 & F-20 > and the Economy Box Cars (DB-1, DB-2, DB-3 and DB-4). They're said > to couple up with most any dummy coupler and if I remember correctly, > they'll couple up just fine with Kadee #5's but I don't know about > uncoupling, not having used them on a layout. Unless they do work > well with Kadees smoothly, its best not to intermix them, but it is > tempting -- they're kind of neat. Ray > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5316	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Couplers

OK, here's a question for those older than I- I bought a box of vintage trains a while back, some of the cars, mostly the Silver Streak cars, had a very nice scale style operating coupler on it. It has a two part lever that pulls straight down to open the knuckle, which pivots just like a real knuckle. Similar in operation to a Lionel coupler, the post- 1957 couplers with the disc levers. Except these don't have a disc underneath. And are all metal. Who made these? Don't know anything about them, except that they are pretty nice, and have never seen them before or since. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > For my Penn Line Midget diesels, I used the Kadee "K" called out on their > old sheet, but switched to the current style glad hand instead of the old > pin. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:09 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > > > > Was the MDC mechanical knuckle the same as the Devore? I seem to remember > Devore as having a magnetic coupler ca. the early 1960's, but the mechanical > > MDC's were much before that. (It's touted as their own coupler in the 1953 > catalog). I actually have a couple of them on the layout. Since I do > "gladhandectomies" on my Kadees and uncouple by the "bamboo skewer" method, > the MDC's work just as well as Kadees and will coiple up to them. I also > have a few old kadee "K" units still running. > > Don > > don.dellmann@ <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> prodigy.net > http://www.geocitie <http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann> > s.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics> yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO> > yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY> > yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:50 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > > When it comes to operation, why hinder yourself with any of these old > couplers on your vintage equipment just because the couplers are > vintage. For shelf displays only, that's a different story. Now > Devore couplers -- that's saying something. They're advertised by > Roundhouse in their catalogs almost as though they were the best > thing since sliced bread, but then why wouldn't they promote them > like that. > > No doubt they were very good couplers, although I've never operated > with them, but they sure look like they could have been first > generation Kadees. I've used them on test tracks and they do seem > pretty good, not to mention their close to prototypical appearance. > MDC used them almost exclusively with their metal car kits, except > for the very last series of them, like the 40' Flat Cars (F-1 & F-20 > and the Economy Box Cars (DB-1, DB-2, DB-3 and DB-4). They're said > to couple up with most any dummy coupler and if I remember correctly, > they'll couple up just fine with Kadee #5's but I don't know about > uncoupling, not having used them on a layout. Unless they do work > well with Kadees smoothly, its best not to intermix them, but it is > tempting -- they're kind of neat. Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5317	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Couplers

Sounds like the Marco coupler mid to late 50's? never caught on, was magnetically operated. Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: railwaymodeler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Couplers OK, here's a question for those older than I- I bought a box of vintage trains a while back, some of the cars, mostly the Silver Streak cars, had a very nice scale style operating coupler on it. It has a two part lever that pulls straight down to open the knuckle, which pivots just like a real knuckle. Similar in operation to a Lionel coupler, the post- 1957 couplers with the disc levers. Except these don't have a disc underneath. And are all metal. Who made these? Don't know anything about them, except that they are pretty nice, and have never seen them before or since. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > For my Penn Line Midget diesels, I used the Kadee "K" called out on their > old sheet, but switched to the current style glad hand instead of the old > pin. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:09 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > > > > Was the MDC mechanical knuckle the same as the Devore? I seem to remember > Devore as having a magnetic coupler ca. the early 1960's, but the mechanical > > MDC's were much before that. (It's touted as their own coupler in the 1953 > catalog). I actually have a couple of them on the layout. Since I do > "gladhandectomies" on my Kadees and uncouple by the "bamboo skewer" method, > the MDC's work just as well as Kadees and will coiple up to them. I also > have a few old kadee "K" units still running. > > Don > > don.dellmann@ <mailto:don. dellmann% 40prodigy. net> prodigy.net > http://www.geocitie <http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann> > s.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups. <http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics> yahoo.com/group/ MRPics > http://groups. <http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO> > yahoo.com/group/ vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups. <http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY> > yahoo.com/group/ SCENERY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect . <mailto:erieberk% 40wmconnect. com> com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:50 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > > When it comes to operation, why hinder yourself with any of these old > couplers on your vintage equipment just because the couplers are > vintage. For shelf displays only, that's a different story. Now > Devore couplers -- that's saying something. They're advertised by > Roundhouse in their catalogs almost as though they were the best > thing since sliced bread, but then why wouldn't they promote them > like that. > > No doubt they were very good couplers, although I've never operated > with them, but they sure look like they could have been first > generation Kadees. I've used them on test tracks and they do seem > pretty good, not to mention their close to prototypical appearance. > MDC used them almost exclusively with their metal car kits, except > for the very last series of them, like the 40' Flat Cars (F-1 & F-20 > and the Economy Box Cars (DB-1, DB-2, DB-3 and DB-4). They're said > to couple up with most any dummy coupler and if I remember correctly, > they'll couple up just fine with Kadee #5's but I don't know about > uncoupling, not having used them on a layout. Unless they do work > well with Kadees smoothly, its best not to intermix them, but it is > tempting -- they're kind of neat. Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5318	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Kadee #4s

Roger Aultman wrote: > Sounds like the Marco coupler mid to late 50's? never caught on, was > magnetically operated. All the recent talk about couplers has reminded me of a concern I've had for a number of years - how much longer will Kadee continue to manufacture their #4 couplers? So many of these old kits need them, but I have to think that it's a product with a decreasing demand. What do we do when they're not available any more? -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ I don't know much about politics, but I'll say yes to almost any proposition.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5319	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/13/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee #4s

I do not recall any direct replacements, but the Kadee assembled Scale Coupler seems to have a similar action and the footprint is smaller than the 5.  If you do not mind modifying the car a  bit it should work.   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Jones To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:14 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Kadee #4s Roger Aultman wrote: > Sounds like the Marco coupler mid to late 50's? never caught on, was > magnetically operated. All the recent talk about couplers has reminded me of a concern I've had for a number of years - how much longer will Kadee continue to manufacture their #4 couplers? So many of these old kits need them, but I have to think that it's a product with a decreasing demand. What do we do when they're not available any more? -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocitie s.com/seventysix inchesoffun/ I don't know much about politics, but I'll say yes to almost any proposition.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5320	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/14/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee #4s

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:14 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Kadee #4s > Roger Aultman wrote: >> Sounds like the Marco coupler mid to late 50's? never caught on, was >> magnetically operated. > > All the recent talk about couplers has reminded me of a concern I've > had for a number of years - how much longer will Kadee continue to > manufacture their #4 couplers? So many of these old kits need them, but > I have to think that it's a product with a decreasing demand. What do we > do when they're not available any more? I've had good luck on some cars with a 5 and using the bottom of a No. 5 pocket as the cover plate, slipping the boss over the post that would normally hold the no. 4, and holding it on with screws or glue on the sides. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5321	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/14/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee #4s

Does this assembly use plastic? What I like about the #4, is that there is no plastic in the assembly. I have quite a few cars with no plastic on them, and I like this. #4s help this matter. Back when the hobby shop was only a few blocks away, it used to be that when Bob there was ordering from his distributor, he'd call me and ask how many cars I was working on at the time. He would place entire bulk orders of #4s just for me, and hold them for me behind the counter. I think us vintage guys keep Kadee making those things. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > I do not recall any direct replacements, but the Kadee assembled Scale Coupler seems to have a similar action and the footprint is smaller than the 5. If you do not mind modifying the car a bit it should work. Roger Aultman > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rick Jones > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:14 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Kadee #4s > > > Roger Aultman wrote: > > Sounds like the Marco coupler mid to late 50's? never caught on, was > > magnetically operated. > > All the recent talk about couplers has reminded me of a concern I've > had for a number of years - how much longer will Kadee continue to > manufacture their #4 couplers? So many of these old kits need them, but > I have to think that it's a product with a decreasing demand. What do we > do when they're not available any more? > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > > I don't know much about politics, but I'll say yes to almost any > proposition. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5322	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/14/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee #4s

The box is plastic, the coupler appears to be metal. Perhaps your best bet would be to buy a large quantity of 4's and sell off the excess for a hopefull profit to pay for your trouble. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: railwaymodeler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Kadee #4s Does this assembly use plastic? What I like about the #4, is that there is no plastic in the assembly. I have quite a few cars with no plastic on them, and I like this. #4s help this matter. Back when the hobby shop was only a few blocks away, it used to be that when Bob there was ordering from his distributor, he'd call me and ask how many cars I was working on at the time. He would place entire bulk orders of #4s just for me, and hold them for me behind the counter. I think us vintage guys keep Kadee making those things. -Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5323	From: rayzef	Date: 2/14/2008
Subject: Re: GN Boxcar 10094

Hi RayW Russ will be over on the weekend so we will checkout all the kits together and see if we can positively identify of the kit, will post results. RayZ --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, That sure does sound different! And you're sure its all > original, or would you suspect some of the parts may have been replaced > somewhere along the way? In off-line discussions on these cars, Russ > has pointed out that he has 6 built up Tenshodo cars in original white > cardboard boxes, so your white box may stand a good chance as being > original, especially if the "D&RGW Boxcar" marking matches the contents > and was factory printed. Beyond that, Russ may be able to tell you > more about this box. If your kit is 100% original, it shows the > different variations of them, depending on what materials were most > readily available at the time. Can't help you on the possibility of > your ready-to-run models being Ken Kidder; I'm not that familiar with > all their products, only that they offered trolley cars in the > late '70's -- early '80's. Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rayzef" <rayzef@> wrote: > > > > Hi All > > I have a mint kit of the boxcar, it is different to all the Tenshodo > > kits I own, as it has a machined brass roofwalk. The Tenshodo and most > > of my New One kits have a diecast roofwalk. > > The kit has painted metal sides ,unpainted roof and ends, diecast > > doors, wood body with diecast underframe. The most annoying thing it > > did not come in its original box, it is in a plain white box marked > > D&RGW Boxcar .Quite a few of my New One/Tenshodo are also in the same > > type of box, before Tenshodo started putting on the blue labels. > > Checking the IMP kits they have diecast roofwalks, so it makes it > > difficult to pin a make down exact!! > > I have two ready to run models that are constructed the same, they are > > in a red color box with gray label, the same as Ken Kidder used but > > not sure they are Ken Kidder?? > > > > Ray Z > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5324	From: Tom	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Hello gentlemen. I was lucky enough to pick up a Penn Line crusader yesterday that needs a rear truck on the loco. Does anyone have one they are willing to part with? Much appriciated, thanks, Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5325	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

aaaahhhh  How much you got???   he he he he   When I get mine... I am calling your house at 2:00 AM.... Just to let you know I got mine.. and then let your wife refer to ME as ... Another Idiot!...   Good luck on your quest.. and i willl be stopping over to see it when it comes..   Sean Tom <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: Hello gentlemen. I was lucky enough to pick up a Penn Line crusader yesterday that needs a rear truck on the loco. Does anyone have one they are willing to part with? Much appriciated, thanks, Tom Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5326	From: Tom	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Hey buddy, when it arrives, you will be the first to know and are welcome to come check it out. I have some other stuff to trade you. By the way, it was midnight, not 2am. Who sleeps when there are trains to buy? You can call me anytime though. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > aaaahhhh How much you got??? > > he he he he > > When I get mine... I am calling your house at 2:00 AM.... Just to let you know I got mine.. and then let your wife refer to ME as ... Another Idiot!... > > Good luck on your quest.. and i willl be stopping over to see it when it comes.. > > Sean > > Tom <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: > Hello gentlemen. I was lucky enough to pick up a Penn Line crusader > yesterday that needs a rear truck on the loco. Does anyone have one > they are willing to part with? Much appriciated, thanks, Tom > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5327	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

HI Tom: You want to sell that Penn Line Crusader????? I have looked for one for years, and the only thing that comes close is a current run IHC engine that is essentially a "streamlined" 4-6-2 painted silver and lettered in Gothic with the name "Crusader". Not sure this will do for me.. LOL. The IHC model doesn't have the art deco shroud..... Dave F ************** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5328	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: More HO DC Locos for sale (cleaning house again)

List: For Sale: Cleaning House and Downsizing somewhat after 50+ years..... Have the following loco sets for sale, new, original boxes, little or no run time. Walthers Train Line, FA1 ABA set, Rock Island, sell as a set, $75.00 All units powered, new Walthers Train Line, FA1 ABA set, Great Northern, sell as a set, $75.00 All units powered, new Walthers Train Line, FA1 ABA set, New York Central, sell as a set, $75.00 All units powered, new P2K, FA2 ABA set, C&NW, powered As, dummy B, sell as a set, $75.00 Test run a few times. P1K FM C Liner, ABA Milwaukee, new, in box, 3 units powered, $75.00 for set No run time at all Hobbytown of Boston (Trainco, Hollywood, FL) BP-20 Passenger Sharks, both units powered, unpainted, undecorated, new, in orig box, white cast resin body castings. Good runners, but excess. PRR decal sheets availiable with sale. $120.00 for set (A and B units). Oddball units, but worth having.... Hobbytown of Boston (Original Hobbytown), E7B metal body casting (shell), unfinished, heavy metal, no chassis, original box, $10.00. Good train room decoration or office paperweight. Postage is a bit extra, and any excess refunded. Contact off list if you are interested. Dave F ************** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5329	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: More HO DC Locos for sale (cleaning house again)

Just a note, we don't mind "for sale" posts, but, considering most of this is "non-vintage", I would prefer you just say something like "I have a number of locomotives for sale, please contact me off list for a list." Thanks Don ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: All-Florida-Model-Railroaders@yahoogroups.com ; HO-Model-Train-Trader@yahoogroups.com ; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com ; All-Railroads@yahoogroups.com ; New-York-Central-Railroad@yahoogroups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 8:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] More HO DC Locos for sale (cleaning house again) List: For Sale: Cleaning House and Downsizing somewhat after 50+ years..... (text bobbitted)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5330	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: More HO DC Locos for sale (cleaning house again)

Hi Don: Thanks for the note. I was aware, after the fact, that the stuff I was offering for sale wasn't vintage equipment (at least not yet anyway, as I haven't yet gotten to that category of equipment that is for sale). I hit the vintageHO address in my email box in error, but it was too late by the time I realized it. (note that I have not, and have never, sent any for sale lists to the vintage group). Other than the vintageHO and the HO group, I own all of the other lists that I have been sending to. Thanks for the reminder. Dave F ************** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5331	From: Tom	Date: 2/15/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Hey Dave, I will eventually sell it, want to look at it for a while on the shelf first. Make me an offer! I know what you mean by the IHC, just not the same. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > HI Tom: > > You want to sell that Penn Line Crusader????? I have looked for one for > years, and the only thing that comes close is a current run IHC engine > that is essentially a "streamlined" 4-6-2 painted silver and lettered in > Gothic with the name "Crusader". Not sure this will do for me.. LOL. > > The IHC model doesn't have the art deco shroud..... > > Dave F > > > > ************** > The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy > Awards. Go to AOL Music. > > (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5332	From: mikearmadilloaviation	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: HOBBYTOWN

I am new to this group and am hoping someone can tell me something about 2 pieces I recently got. The first is a Hobbytown Alco road switcher. At least the box say's it is. I beleive the engine may be an old Athern shell. The frame and motor may be older as it is an open frame motor, no flywheels and has a shaft for rubber bands to power the trucks. The shell is painted Burlington Route in black, gray and red. I think it is a GP9 high nose. The other unit is an Athern, however, I have never seen an Athern box that is yellow. The markings on one end of the box are as follows; C104-1;89 PLASTIC KIT DECORATED SO. PAC. CABOOSE Both the engine and caboose have what look to be Kadee couplers, However there is a pin that projects downward from the knuckle itself, not from the center where the knuckle pivots on the shank. Any help in dating these units and determing their value would be much appreciated. Thanks. Mike

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5333	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN

----- Original Message ----- From: "mikearmadilloaviation" <mikearmadilloaviation@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] HOBBYTOWN > I am new to this group and am hoping someone can tell me something > about 2 pieces I recently got. The first is a Hobbytown Alco road > switcher. At least the box say's it is. I beleive the engine may be an > old Athern shell. The frame and motor may be older as it is an open > frame motor, no flywheels and has a shaft for rubber bands to power the > trucks. The shell is painted Burlington Route in black, gray and red. I > think it is a GP9 high nose. The other unit is an Athern, however, I > have never seen an Athern box that is yellow. The markings on one end > of the box are as follows; C104-1;89 > PLASTIC KIT DECORATED > SO. PAC. CABOOSE > Both the engine and caboose have what look to be Kadee couplers, > However there is a pin that projects downward from the knuckle itself, > not from the center where the knuckle pivots on the shank. Any help in > dating these units and determing their value would be much appreciated. > Thanks. > Mike The locomotive is in the wrong box. Sounds like an Athearn "Hi-Fi" drive GP-9. That would be from somewhere around the late 1950's to early 60's. The caboose and the "yellow box" are from the same era (in fact the Geep probably originally came in a "yellow box" too if it wasn't part of a train set.) The Hi-Fi drive, in tests done at the time by Model Railroader magazine, actually outpulled most then currently available gear drive units, but was prone to "jack rabbit" starting and excessive high speeds. When running several together, they tended to even each other out, and actually become rather nice running units. The couplers sound like the original Kadee "K" series which were mechanical rather than magnetic. They will couple up with today's Kadees, but won't uncople automatically. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5334	From: Tom	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: More HO DC Locos for sale (cleaning house again)

Dave, I am interested in the Hobbytown E7B, I will take it for 10 buck plus shipping. Tom --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > List: > > For Sale: Cleaning House and Downsizing somewhat after 50+ years..... > > Have the following loco sets for sale, new, original boxes, little or no run > time. > > Walthers Train Line, FA1 ABA set, Rock Island, sell as a set, $75.00 > All units powered, new > > Walthers Train Line, FA1 ABA set, Great Northern, sell as a set, $75.00 > All units powered, new > > Walthers Train Line, FA1 ABA set, New York Central, sell as a set, $75.00 > All units powered, new > > P2K, FA2 ABA set, C&NW, powered As, dummy B, sell as a set, $75.00 > Test run a few times. > > P1K FM C Liner, ABA Milwaukee, new, in box, 3 units powered, $75.00 for set > No run time at all > > Hobbytown of Boston (Trainco, Hollywood, FL) BP-20 Passenger Sharks, > both units powered, unpainted, undecorated, new, in orig box, white cast > resin body castings. Good runners, but excess. PRR decal sheets availiable > with sale. $120.00 for set (A and B units). Oddball units, but worth > having.... > > Hobbytown of Boston (Original Hobbytown), E7B metal body casting (shell), > unfinished, heavy metal, no chassis, original box, $10.00. Good train room > decoration or office paperweight. > > Postage is a bit extra, and any excess refunded. > > Contact off list if you are interested. > > Dave F > > > > > > > > ************** > The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy > Awards. Go to AOL Music. > > (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5335	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN

Hobbytown drives fit a lot of other shells, so an Athearn GP-9 on a hobbytown chassis is not out of possibility. The labeling of the caboose almost sounds MDC. The couplers are original type Kadees--before magnetics. They used a diamond-shaped ramp to uncouple--had to be raised to engage the pins/. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "mikearmadilloaviation" <mikearmadilloaviation@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 8:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] HOBBYTOWN > I am new to this group and am hoping someone can tell me something > about 2 pieces I recently got. The first is a Hobbytown Alco road > switcher. At least the box say's it is. I beleive the engine may be an > old Athern shell. The frame and motor may be older as it is an open > frame motor, no flywheels and has a shaft for rubber bands to power the > trucks. The shell is painted Burlington Route in black, gray and red. I > think it is a GP9 high nose. The other unit is an Athern, however, I > have never seen an Athern box that is yellow. The markings on one end > of the box are as follows; C104-1;89 > PLASTIC KIT DECORATED > SO. PAC. CABOOSE > Both the engine and caboose have what look to be Kadee couplers, > However there is a pin that projects downward from the knuckle itself, > not from the center where the knuckle pivots on the shank. Any help in > dating these units and determing their value would be much appreciated. > Thanks. > Mike > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5336	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN

oops! I missed the part about the rubberbands--yes, definitely Athearn. As to the caboose, what is the window pattern and how is the cupola located. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 1:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOBBYTOWN > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mikearmadilloaviation" <mikearmadilloaviation@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:29 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] HOBBYTOWN > > >> I am new to this group and am hoping someone can tell me something >> about 2 pieces I recently got. The first is a Hobbytown Alco road >> switcher. At least the box say's it is. I beleive the engine may be an >> old Athern shell. The frame and motor may be older as it is an open >> frame motor, no flywheels and has a shaft for rubber bands to power the >> trucks. The shell is painted Burlington Route in black, gray and red. I >> think it is a GP9 high nose. The other unit is an Athern, however, I >> have never seen an Athern box that is yellow. The markings on one end >> of the box are as follows; C104-1;89 >> PLASTIC KIT DECORATED >> SO. PAC. CABOOSE >> Both the engine and caboose have what look to be Kadee couplers, >> However there is a pin that projects downward from the knuckle itself, >> not from the center where the knuckle pivots on the shank. Any help in >> dating these units and determing their value would be much appreciated. >> Thanks. >> Mike > > The locomotive is in the wrong box. Sounds like an Athearn "Hi-Fi" drive > GP-9. That would be from somewhere around the late 1950's to early 60's. > The caboose and the "yellow box" are from the same era (in fact the Geep > probably originally came in a "yellow box" too if it wasn't part of a > train > set.) > > The Hi-Fi drive, in tests done at the time by Model Railroader magazine, > actually outpulled most then currently available gear drive units, but was > prone to "jack rabbit" starting and excessive high speeds. When running > several together, they tended to even each other out, and actually become > rather nice running units. > > The couplers sound like the original Kadee "K" series which were > mechanical > rather than magnetic. They will couple up with today's Kadees, but won't > uncople automatically. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5337	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN

Hi: The box end markings were the item stock number (C-104) and the 1:89 was the retail price. In those days, it was common for a lot of models to have the price written as part of the overall stock number. This was printed as part of the box, by the mfr. Revell models started this process, and it was widely adopted by other model makers of the day. This probably insured that what we today call "MSRP" was in fact what the item sold for, unless it was discounted. Dave F ************** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5338	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBYTOWN

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOBBYTOWN > Hobbytown drives fit a lot of other shells, so an Athearn GP-9 on a > hobbytown chassis is not out of possibility. The labeling of the caboose > almost sounds MDC. > > The couplers are original type Kadees--before magnetics. They used a > diamond-shaped ramp to uncouple--had to be raised to engage the pins/. gj > I have a GP-9 on a Hobbytown! :-) He did describe a rubber band drive unit though, and said the caboose was specifically a "yellowbox Athearn". Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5339	From: lawrencehokanson	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: LaBelle wood kits

Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? Their site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to Watertown sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their present location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net and see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) which they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to find an approximate date for them. Thanks Dale in Spokane

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5340	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

Present owner is Rich Steele, is on several narrow gauge lists. try info@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "lawrencehokanson" <dale.hokanson@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? Their > site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to Watertown > sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their present > location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net and > see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) which > they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to find > an approximate date for them. > > Thanks > > Dale in Spokane > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5341	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking passed away in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car in O Scale, and spoke with his widow--she was waiting for someone to run a few needed parts--no problem packing the kits--"(she) was the packing dept." I don't know is Mr. Steele bought the company directly,or if someone else was in there in between gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "lawrencehokanson" <dale.hokanson@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? Their > site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to Watertown > sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their present > location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net and > see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) which > they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to find > an approximate date for them. > > Thanks > > Dale in Spokane > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5342	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

I think Fred Neinow, the founder of LaBelle Woodworking, passed away about 5 years ago and was almost 90. I bought some of his personal collection. they were downsizing, in what I got the impression of them moving to senior housing. I have several HO trolleys built in cooperation with other local pioneers as well as the original templates used to make the tin-plate car sides. I think it was a team of four modelers. Since Fred's specialty was woodworking the TMER&L cars have accurate roof profiles. The cars are TM and NSL cars. He did the wood, another did the layered metal sides, Arvid Anderson did the power trucks, and I believe the fourth of the group made the masters for the white metal castings used on the models. I also have some un-used TMER&L wood roof stock from the project. There were some other vintage items as well. It's the hand-made HO trolleys that was the bulk of what I was able to afford to buy from Fred. One of the more interesting units is the open-observation CNS&M interurban. I think he did two types of TMER&L duplexes as well. This was somewhere in the early 2000's. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Feb 16, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking > passed away > in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car > in O > Scale, and spoke with his widow--she was waiting for someone to run > a few > needed parts--no problem packing the kits--"(she) was the packing > dept." > > I don't know is Mr. Steele bought the company directly,or if > someone else > was in there in between gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lawrencehokanson" <dale.hokanson@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:50 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > > >> Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? >> Their >> site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to >> Watertown >> sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their >> present >> location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net >> and >> see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) which >> they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to find >> an approximate date for them.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5343	From: Philip Martin	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

In 2006, I stopped by LaBelle's shop in Cheyenne. Mr Steele is a nice man...he showed us the shop, the laser machine used to make car sides, and the LaBelle display models. I bought a few different kits and parts from him.   We commented that this must be the best job ever, but he said no...we later found out he is a engineer for Union Pacific.   Phil ----- Original Message ---- From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:03:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits I think Fred Neinow, the founder of LaBelle Woodworking, passed away about 5 years ago and was almost 90. I bought some of his personal collection. they were downsizing, in what I got the impression of them moving to senior housing. I have several HO trolleys built in cooperation with other local pioneers as well as the original templates used to make the tin-plate car sides. I think it was a team of four modelers. Since Fred's specialty was woodworking the TMER&L cars have accurate roof profiles. The cars are TM and NSL cars. He did the wood, another did the layered metal sides, Arvid Anderson did the power trucks, and I believe the fourth of the group made the masters for the white metal castings used on the models. I also have some un-used TMER&L wood roof stock from the project. There were some other vintage items as well. It's the hand-made HO trolleys that was the bulk of what I was able to afford to buy from Fred. One of the more interesting units is the open-observation CNS&M interurban. I think he did two types of TMER&L duplexes as well. This was somewhere in the early 2000's. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Feb 16, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking > passed away > in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car > in O > Scale, and spoke with his widow--she was waiting for someone to run > a few > needed parts--no problem packing the kits--"(she) was the packing > dept." > > I don't know is Mr. Steele bought the company directly,or if > someone else > was in there in between gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lawrencehokanson" <dale.hokanson@ stanfordalumni. org> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:50 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > > >> Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? >> Their >> site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to >> Watertown >> sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their >> present >> location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net >> and >> see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) which >> they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to find >> an approximate date for them. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5344	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

Mike--it had to be longer ago than that as I had not yet retired (end of 2001) and it was quite a while before I retired (end of 2001) and I was still in Monterey when it arrived. I'm saying eARLY 90'S AT THE MOST RECENT. GJ SKRU THIS CAP;PDK key!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits >I think Fred Neinow, the founder of LaBelle Woodworking, passed away > about 5 years ago and was almost 90. > > I bought some of his personal collection. they were downsizing, in > what I got the impression of them moving to senior housing. > > I have several HO trolleys built in cooperation with other local > pioneers as well as the original templates used to make the tin-plate > car sides. > > I think it was a team of four modelers. > > Since Fred's specialty was woodworking the TMER&L cars have accurate > roof profiles. The cars are TM and NSL cars. He did the wood, another > did the layered metal sides, Arvid Anderson did the power trucks, and > I believe the fourth of the group made the masters for the white > metal castings used on the models. > > I also have some un-used TMER&L wood roof stock from the project. > > There were some other vintage items as well. It's the hand-made HO > trolleys that was the bulk of what I was able to afford to buy from > Fred. > > One of the more interesting units is the open-observation CNS&M > interurban. I think he did two types of TMER&L duplexes as well. > > This was somewhere in the early 2000's. > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Feb 16, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > >> as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking >> passed away >> in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car >> in O >> Scale, and spoke with his widow--she was waiting for someone to run >> a few >> needed parts--no problem packing the kits--"(she) was the packing >> dept." >> >> I don't know is Mr. Steele bought the company directly,or if >> someone else >> was in there in between gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "lawrencehokanson" <dale.hokanson@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:50 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits >> >> >>> Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? >>> Their >>> site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to >>> Watertown >>> sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their >>> present >>> location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net >>> and >>> see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) which >>> they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to find >>> an approximate date for them. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5345	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

I think there were only two major (partners) that had total control over the outcome of La Belle in Oconomowoc, WI. I do remember Fred and talk with his wife just after I heard that the other partner had die and just before Fred was place in assisted living. The time frame was the late 80's or early 90's. Mike..... I did some of the packaging in the mid 60's for La Belle after school, I'd like to know what ever happened to the large book with all the sketches and drawing of all their kits. And, didn't someone in Indiana buy the La Belle name, the inventory, and machinery before it ended up in Wyoming? Or was it Steele that started in Indiana and moved to Wyoming? Glen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > > I think Fred Neinow, the founder of LaBelle Woodworking, passed away > about 5 years ago and was almost 90. > > I bought some of his personal collection. they were downsizing, in > what I got the impression of them moving to senior housing. > > I have several HO trolleys built in cooperation with other local > pioneers as well as the original templates used to make the tin-plate > car sides. > > I think it was a team of four modelers. > > Since Fred's specialty was woodworking the TMER&L cars have accurate > roof profiles. The cars are TM and NSL cars. He did the wood, another > did the layered metal sides, Arvid Anderson did the power trucks, and > I believe the fourth of the group made the masters for the white > metal castings used on the models. > > I also have some un-used TMER&L wood roof stock from the project. > > There were some other vintage items as well. It's the hand-made HO > trolleys that was the bulk of what I was able to afford to buy from > Fred. > > One of the more interesting units is the open-observation CNS&M > interurban. I think he did two types of TMER&L duplexes as well. > > This was somewhere in the early 2000's. > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Feb 16, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > > > as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking > > passed away > > in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car > > in O > > Scale, and spoke with his widow--she was waiting for someone to run > > a few > > needed parts--no problem packing the kits--"(she) was the packing > > dept." > > > > I don't know is Mr. Steele bought the company directly,or if > > someone else > > was in there in between gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "lawrencehokanson" dale.hokanson@... > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:50 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > > > > > >> Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? > >> Their > >> site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to > >> Watertown > >> sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their > >> present > >> location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net > >> and > >> see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) which > >> they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to find > >> an approximate date for them. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5346	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

The Fred Neinow I knew.......... Wait a bit......... did Fred sell LaBelle to a local before I met him and his wife; and you dealt with the second owner of LaBelle, before it moved out of Wisconsin ??? I know I was hanging with the fellow that put together the 2000 Milwaukee traction meet and it was very close to then. We both visited the Neinows a couple of times. It was a few years after I set up a Yahoo group to explore computerizing modeling. I think that was no earlier than 1996, possibly 1998 for that group........ I bought a 3d scanner soon after I got the trolleys with the idea of scanning the finished roofs on the TM heavies. That was about 2003, [I was recently reviewing that purchase]. I just checked the date on my group....... "Founded: Apr 14, 1999" I just looked at some of my email archives..... wasn't my earliest archives. I'd have to suck those off another older computer to fast- search them. I see I'm referring to Fred's models in May-'99. I'll poke at those other files another time. Perhaps Fred was still around in the Mid-'90's ?? I'll look at those early archives for a message about when I bought those items........ I'd like to be sure. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Feb 16, 2008, at 9:20 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > Mike--it had to be longer ago than that as I had not yet retired > (end of > 2001) and it was quite a while before I retired (end of 2001) and > I was > still in Monterey when it arrived. I'm saying eARLY 90'S AT THE MOST > RECENT. GJ SKRU THIS CAP;PDK key!!! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 7:03 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > > >> I think Fred Neinow, the founder of LaBelle Woodworking, passed away >> about 5 years ago and was almost 90. >> >> I bought some of his personal collection. they were downsizing, in >> what I got the impression of them moving to senior housing. >> >> I have several HO trolleys built in cooperation with other local >> pioneers as well as the original templates used to make the tin-plate >> car sides. >> >> I think it was a team of four modelers. >> >> Since Fred's specialty was woodworking the TMER&L cars have accurate >> roof profiles. The cars are TM and NSL cars. He did the wood, another >> did the layered metal sides, Arvid Anderson did the power trucks, and >> I believe the fourth of the group made the masters for the white >> metal castings used on the models. >> >> I also have some un-used TMER&L wood roof stock from the project. >> >> There were some other vintage items as well. It's the hand-made HO >> trolleys that was the bulk of what I was able to afford to buy from >> Fred. >> >> One of the more interesting units is the open-observation CNS&M >> interurban. I think he did two types of TMER&L duplexes as well. >> >> This was somewhere in the early 2000's. >> >> Best to ya' >> Mike Bauers >> Milwaukee Wi, USA >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Glenn476 wrote: >> >>> as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking >>> passed away >>> in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car >>> in O >>> Scale, and spoke with his widow--she was waiting for someone to run >>> a few >>> needed parts--no problem packing the kits--"(she) was the packing >>> dept." >>> >>> I don't know is Mr. Steele bought the company directly,or if >>> someone else >>> was in there in between gj >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "lawrencehokanson" <dale.hokanson@...> >>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:50 AM >>> Subject: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits >>> >>> >>>> Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? >>>> Their >>>> site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to >>>> Watertown >>>> sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their >>>> present >>>> location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net >>>> and >>>> see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) >>>> which >>>> they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to >>>> find >>>> an approximate date for them.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5347	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

I never saw anything of that book. He had been reducing his collection for a short while before I met him. Perhaps it's with the present company? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Feb 16, 2008, at 9:56 PM, Glen Thomas wrote: > > > I think there were only two major (partners) that had total control > over > the outcome of La Belle in Oconomowoc, WI. I do remember Fred and > talk > with his wife just after I heard that the other partner had die and > just > before Fred was place in assisted living. The time frame was the late > 80's or early 90's. > > Mike..... I did some of the packaging in the mid 60's for La Belle > after > school, I'd like to know what ever happened to the large book with all > the sketches and drawing of all their kits. > > And, didn't someone in Indiana buy the La Belle name, the > inventory, and > machinery before it ended up in Wyoming? Or was it Steele that > started > in Indiana and moved to Wyoming?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5348	From: Glen	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

All I can remember, as we know.. "a senior moment", is that the two owners of La Belle from the 60's, which there one only one of them left in the late 80's sold the name and rights to someone in Watertown.   It was the Fred you mentioned from Watertown that bought the rights and then later sold them to someone in Indiana in the late 90's or early 2000's.  I bet Mr.. Steel from Wyoming could help us out on the later statement.  I'm going to email me tonight or tomorrow and see what he says. Glen www.cctrains.com where hobbyist from SE Wisconsin sell their older, but new items.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:12 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits The Fred Neinow I knew........ .. Wait a bit......... did Fred sell LaBelle to a local before I met him and his wife; and you dealt with the second owner of LaBelle, before it moved out of Wisconsin ??? I know I was hanging with the fellow that put together the 2000 Milwaukee traction meet and it was very close to then. We both visited the Neinows a couple of times. It was a few years after I set up a Yahoo group to explore computerizing modeling. I think that was no earlier than 1996, possibly 1998 for that group....... . I bought a 3d scanner soon after I got the trolleys with the idea of scanning the finished roofs on the TM heavies. That was about 2003, [I was recently reviewing that purchase]. I just checked the date on my group....... "Founded: Apr 14, 1999" I just looked at some of my email archives.... . wasn't my earliest archives. I'd have to suck those off another older computer to fast- search them. I see I'm referring to Fred's models in May-'99. I'll poke at those other files another time. Perhaps Fred was still around in the Mid-'90's ?? I'll look at those early archives for a message about when I bought those items....... . I'd like to be sure. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Feb 16, 2008, at 9:20 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > Mike--it had to be longer ago than that as I had not yet retired > (end of > 2001) and it was quite a while before I retired (end of 2001) and > I was > still in Monterey when it arrived. I'm saying eARLY 90'S AT THE MOST > RECENT. GJ SKRU THIS CAP;PDK key!!! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 7:03 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > > >> I think Fred Neinow, the founder of LaBelle Woodworking, passed away >> about 5 years ago and was almost 90. >> >> I bought some of his personal collection. they were downsizing, in >> what I got the impression of them moving to senior housing. >> >> I have several HO trolleys built in cooperation with other local >> pioneers as well as the original templates used to make the tin-plate >> car sides. >> >> I think it was a team of four modelers. >> >> Since Fred's specialty was woodworking the TMER&L cars have accurate >> roof profiles. The cars are TM and NSL cars. He did the wood, another >> did the layered metal sides, Arvid Anderson did the power trucks, and >> I believe the fourth of the group made the masters for the white >> metal castings used on the models. >> >> I also have some un-used TMER&L wood roof stock from the project. >> >> There were some other vintage items as well. It's the hand-made HO >> trolleys that was the bulk of what I was able to afford to buy from >> Fred. >> >> One of the more interesting units is the open-observation CNS&M >> interurban. I think he did two types of TMER&L duplexes as well. >> >> This was somewhere in the early 2000's. >> >> Best to ya' >> Mike Bauers >> Milwaukee Wi, USA >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Glenn476 wrote: >> >>> as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking >>> passed away >>> in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car >>> in O >>> Scale, and spoke with his widow--she was waiting for someone to run >>> a few >>> needed parts--no problem packing the kits--"(she) was the packing >>> dept." >>> >>> I don't know is Mr. Steele bought the company directly,or if >>> someone else >>> was in there in between gj >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "lawrencehokanson" < href="mailto:dale.hokanson%40stanfordalumni.org">dale.hokanson@ stanfordalumni. org> >>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:50 AM >>> Subject: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits >>> >>> >>>> Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? >>>> Their >>>> site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to >>>> Watertown >>>> sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their >>>> present >>>> location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net >>>> and >>>> see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) >>>> which >>>> they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to >>>> find >>>> an approximate date for them.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5349	From: Glen	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

Mike,     Another thing that came to my mind.....  after the better half refreshed my memory, is it was not the 80's that I was thinking of, but the mid to late 70's when I had the phone conversation with the misses out in Oconomowoc.  And Nancy reminded me that we drove out there and found the place closed up.  She also told me that we went to Garman's in West Allis to get the phone # that they used to place their orders.        La Belle did not product/manufacture any kits in the 70's or 80's that had the Oconomowoc printed on the box.   Walthers, if you check there catalogs, dropped the La Belle kits from their 1971 catalog because of the production.  So this tell me that the original owners from Oconomowoc didn't do nothing with the business until they sold it to Fred in Watertown.       I still say that it went to Indiana after Watertown, before it went to Wyoming.  Glen www.cctrains.com where hobbyist from SE Wisconsin sell their older, but new items.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:14 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: LaBelle wood kits I never saw anything of that book. He had been reducing his collection for a short while before I met him. Perhaps it's with the present company? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5350	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

I ordered a Milwaukee Road caboose from the Indiana owner just before he sold.  It arrived with a spectacular smashing job by UPS, when I informed Labelle he said he would send another and to keep the damaged kit.  Roger Aultman         ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 11:03 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: LaBelle wood kits     Mike,     Another thing that came to my mind.....  after the better half refreshed my memory, is it was not the 80's that I was thinking of, but the mid to late 70's when I had the phone conversation with the misses out in Oconomowoc.  And Nancy reminded me that we drove out there and found the place closed up.  She also told me that we went to Garman's in West Allis to get the phone # that they used to place their orders.        La Belle did not product/manufacture any kits in the 70's or 80's that had the Oconomowoc printed on the box.   Walthers, if you check there catalogs, dropped the La Belle kits from their 1971 catalog because of the production.  So this tell me that the original owners from Oconomowoc didn't do nothing with the business until they sold it to Fred in Watertown.       I still say that it went to Indiana after Watertown, before it went to Wyoming.  Glen www.cctrains. com where hobbyist from SE Wisconsin sell their older, but new items.   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:14 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: LaBelle wood kits I never saw anything of that book. He had been reducing his collection for a short while before I met him. Perhaps it's with the present company? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5351	From: Glen	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

Roger,     Thanks for the info....  I thought I had to increase my medicine.  I just finished a letter to La Belle to get all the answers if he has them.     I think Mike is right.  For some reason....... I didn't think the original owners held on to the La Belle name for 15 years before selling it. Glen www.cctrains.com where hobbyist from SE Wisconsin sell their older, but new items.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Aultman Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 11:22 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: LaBelle wood kits I ordered a Milwaukee Road caboose from the Indiana owner just before he sold.  It arrived with a spectacular smashing job by UPS, when I informed Labelle he said he would send another and to keep the damaged kit.  Roger Aultman         ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 11:03 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: LaBelle wood kits     Mike,     Another thing that came to my mind.....  after the better half refreshed my memory, is it was not the 80's that I was thinking of, but the mid to late 70's when I had the phone conversation with the misses out in Oconomowoc.  And Nancy reminded me that we drove out there and found the place closed up.  She also told me that we went to Garman's in West Allis to get the phone # that they used to place their orders.        La Belle did not product/manufacture any kits in the 70's or 80's that had the Oconomowoc printed on the box.   Walthers, if you check there catalogs, dropped the La Belle kits from their 1971 catalog because of the production.  So this tell me that the original owners from Oconomowoc didn't do nothing with the business until they sold it to Fred in Watertown.       I still say that it went to Indiana after Watertown, before it went to Wyoming.  Glen www.cctrains. com where hobbyist from SE Wisconsin sell their older, but new items.   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:14 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: LaBelle wood kits I never saw anything of that book. He had been reducing his collection for a short while before I met him. Perhaps it's with the present company? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5352	From: oahurailway	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: LaBelle Woodworking

I believe that the original owners of LaBelle Woodworking sold to Jim & Luana Wilhite, One Plaza Drive, Suite 6, Pendleton, IN 46064, telephone 765-778-7788, in 1995. Jim sent me a sales proposal dated April 17, 2001, as he wanted to sell the operation for $50K. He sold the company to the present owners Rick & Tanya Steele of Cheyenne, WY in 2002. Jim continued producing the decals for the kits until he sold that entity too. Hope this may help....Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5353	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

Glenn476 wrote: > as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking passed away > in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car in O > Scale,... I just happened to picked up one of these in HO scale today at the Greater Houston Train Show, kit #HO-85. I don't recall that I've ever seen any other LaBelle kits that included a motor and power truck like this one, though I'm admittedly not familiar with their entire line over the years. There was a real dearth of vintage stuff at the show, other than Lionel. I did look over a built-up Ambroid B&M baggage car, but decided to give it a pass since I have the 3-in-1 kit with the B&M cars already. Saw an old metal Roundhouse MILW ribbed side boxcar, but both doors were broken in half so I gave it a pass also. I think some other parts were possibly missing, along with the directions. There might have been other things available that I missed sine the show opened at 10AM and I didn't get there until a bit after noon. The only other things I bought were a couple of storage boxes with trays and foam that'll hold 48 40' cars each when I get back around to building up some of these accumulated kits. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "I stayed up all night playing poker with a deck of tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died." -Stephen Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5354	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/16/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

that timeframe sounds about right--that kit has been on my shelf for a long time-- Glenn 2N ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 7:56 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: LaBelle wood kits > > > I think there were only two major (partners) that had total control over > the outcome of La Belle in Oconomowoc, WI. I do remember Fred and talk > with his wife just after I heard that the other partner had die and just > before Fred was place in assisted living. The time frame was the late > 80's or early 90's. > > Mike..... I did some of the packaging in the mid 60's for La Belle after > school, I'd like to know what ever happened to the large book with all > the sketches and drawing of all their kits. > > And, didn't someone in Indiana buy the La Belle name, the inventory, and > machinery before it ended up in Wyoming? Or was it Steele that started > in Indiana and moved to Wyoming? > > Glen > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: >> >> I think Fred Neinow, the founder of LaBelle Woodworking, passed away >> about 5 years ago and was almost 90. >> >> I bought some of his personal collection. they were downsizing, in >> what I got the impression of them moving to senior housing. >> >> I have several HO trolleys built in cooperation with other local >> pioneers as well as the original templates used to make the tin-plate >> car sides. >> >> I think it was a team of four modelers. >> >> Since Fred's specialty was woodworking the TMER&L cars have accurate >> roof profiles. The cars are TM and NSL cars. He did the wood, another >> did the layered metal sides, Arvid Anderson did the power trucks, and >> I believe the fourth of the group made the masters for the white >> metal castings used on the models. >> >> I also have some un-used TMER&L wood roof stock from the project. >> >> There were some other vintage items as well. It's the hand-made HO >> trolleys that was the bulk of what I was able to afford to buy from >> Fred. >> >> One of the more interesting units is the open-observation CNS&M >> interurban. I think he did two types of TMER&L duplexes as well. >> >> This was somewhere in the early 2000's. >> >> Best to ya' >> Mike Bauers >> Milwaukee Wi, USA >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Glenn476 wrote: >> >> > as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking >> > passed away >> > in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car >> > in O >> > Scale, and spoke with his widow--she was waiting for someone to run >> > a few >> > needed parts--no problem packing the kits--"(she) was the packing >> > dept." >> > >> > I don't know is Mr. Steele bought the company directly,or if >> > someone else >> > was in there in between gj >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "lawrencehokanson" dale.hokanson@... >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:50 AM >> > Subject: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits >> > >> > >> >> Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? >> >> Their >> >> site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to >> >> Watertown >> >> sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their >> >> present >> >> location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net >> >> and >> >> see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) > which >> >> they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to > find >> >> an approximate date for them. >> > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5355	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

the O Scale kit I finally got was wood only. Still on the shelf--every once in a while I find things that might go with it and add them to the box so that when I do decide to build it I'm ready. I do this with all kits. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > Glenn476 wrote: >> as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking passed >> away >> in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car in O >> Scale,... > > I just happened to picked up one of these in HO scale today at the > Greater Houston Train Show, kit #HO-85. I don't recall that I've ever > seen any other LaBelle kits that included a motor and power truck like > this one, though I'm admittedly not familiar with their entire line over > the years. > There was a real dearth of vintage stuff at the show, other than > Lionel. I did look over a built-up Ambroid B&M baggage car, but decided > to give it a pass since I have the 3-in-1 kit with the B&M cars already. > Saw an old metal Roundhouse MILW ribbed side boxcar, but both doors were > broken in half so I gave it a pass also. I think some other parts were > possibly missing, along with the directions. > There might have been other things available that I missed sine the > show opened at 10AM and I didn't get there until a bit after noon. The > only other things I bought were a couple of storage boxes with trays and > foam that'll hold 48 40' cars each when I get back around to building up > some of these accumulated kits. > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > > "I stayed up all night playing poker with a deck of tarot cards. > I got a full house and four people died." > -Stephen Wright > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5356	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

That MDC MILW car was the first "real" HO kit I built--my Dad had built several Mantua cars for me--I got the MDC kit for my birthday in 1948--plus a screwdriver. hammer combo and an ignition point file to clean up the flash. Now there's a rarity in itself! Tried to find one lately? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > Glenn476 wrote: >> as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking passed >> away >> in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car in O >> Scale,... > > I just happened to picked up one of these in HO scale today at the > Greater Houston Train Show, kit #HO-85. I don't recall that I've ever > seen any other LaBelle kits that included a motor and power truck like > this one, though I'm admittedly not familiar with their entire line over > the years. > There was a real dearth of vintage stuff at the show, other than > Lionel. I did look over a built-up Ambroid B&M baggage car, but decided > to give it a pass since I have the 3-in-1 kit with the B&M cars already. > Saw an old metal Roundhouse MILW ribbed side boxcar, but both doors were > broken in half so I gave it a pass also. I think some other parts were > possibly missing, along with the directions. > There might have been other things available that I missed sine the > show opened at 10AM and I didn't get there until a bit after noon. The > only other things I bought were a couple of storage boxes with trays and > foam that'll hold 48 40' cars each when I get back around to building up > some of these accumulated kits. > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > > "I stayed up all night playing poker with a deck of tarot cards. > I got a full house and four people died." > -Stephen Wright > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5357	From: mikearmadilloaviation	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: HOBBY TOWN

Wow, What a nice response from everybody!! I wish to thank all of you who have responded to my question. I beleive the frame and motor are Athern, Not sure of age and the shell is probably Athern also. As to the Yellow box Athern caboose, It is marked as a C-30-4 rpkd 4-20-57 S.P.RR L.A. these markings are located lower right hand side. Road # 1177 with RADIO EQUIPPED between the 2 right windows. This side has the cupola to the left and 3 windows. Looking at the other side, with the cupola on the right,There are 5 windows with the same markings. Both sides also have TRAILER-FLATCAR SERVICE on the sides. Someone also added metal sprung trucks.The overall color is silver and this appears to be a standard caboose that was probably in production for many years as I have some of the newer ones but in different roads. I am hoping that this paticular model is as old as the box, Which is in mint condition. Thank you all again for all your help . Mike

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5358	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

Just went out to "The Basement" and retrieved that kit. In the box is invoice #14153 dated 11/1/87 for one kit #O-80. Thanking me for my patience. Address was Watertown, WI. So that should nail down something. This was the one where the widow spoke to me about the kits--I think she asked me if I knew how to run a particular machine that was critical to finishing the kits. I was a bit concerned about my order since a few years earlier I had gotten screwed by Main Line Models/Ye Olde Huffenpuff in similar circumstances--I had ordered over $100 in car kits--kept getting put off--then got word the company had been sold and new owner would not honor the orders..So understandably I can get a bit edgy when I hear a company is for sale gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LaBelle wood kits > Glenn476 wrote: >> as a general follow-up, the gent who "was" LaBelle Woodworking passed >> away >> in the 90's--I was awaiting a "limited run" of the D&RGW motor car in O >> Scale,... > > I just happened to picked up one of these in HO scale today at the > Greater Houston Train Show, kit #HO-85. I don't recall that I've ever > seen any other LaBelle kits that included a motor and power truck like > this one, though I'm admittedly not familiar with their entire line over > the years. > There was a real dearth of vintage stuff at the show, other than > Lionel. I did look over a built-up Ambroid B&M baggage car, but decided > to give it a pass since I have the 3-in-1 kit with the B&M cars already. > Saw an old metal Roundhouse MILW ribbed side boxcar, but both doors were > broken in half so I gave it a pass also. I think some other parts were > possibly missing, along with the directions. > There might have been other things available that I missed sine the > show opened at 10AM and I didn't get there until a bit after noon. The > only other things I bought were a couple of storage boxes with trays and > foam that'll hold 48 40' cars each when I get back around to building up > some of these accumulated kits. > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > > "I stayed up all night playing poker with a deck of tarot cards. > I got a full house and four people died." > -Stephen Wright > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5359	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN

Attachments : ----- Original Message ----- From: "mikearmadilloaviation" <mikearmadilloaviation@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [vintageHO] HOBBY TOWN > Wow, What a nice response from everybody!! I wish to thank all of you > who have responded to my question. I beleive the frame and motor are > Athern, Not sure of age and the shell is probably Athern also. As to > the Yellow box Athern caboose, It is marked as a C-30-4 rpkd 4-20-57 > S.P.RR L.A. these markings are located lower right hand side. Road # > 1177 with RADIO EQUIPPED between the 2 right windows. This side has > the cupola to the left and 3 windows. Looking at the other side, with > the cupola on the right,There are 5 windows with the same markings. > Both sides also have TRAILER-FLATCAR SERVICE on the sides. Someone also > added metal sprung trucks.The overall color is silver and this appears > to be a standard caboose that was probably in production for many years > as I have some of the newer ones but in different roads. I am hoping > that this paticular model is as old as the box, Which is in mint > condition. Thank you all again for all your help . > Mike Actually, from that vintage the metal sprung trucks may very well have been stock. One tip might be if the covers to the coupler pockets are held on with screws or if they're just an extension of the underframe. (The screw-on covers are older). On your Geep.... The original units will have the dynamic brake blisters on the side of the long hood as separate pieces glued on, the horns will stick out the front and back of the cab instead of being on top of the short hood and the handrail stanchions will be more round, with flatted tops and holes for the handrail to pass through rather than the rolled flat metal ones of later years. The attached pictures are an original which may show some of the things I'm talking about. The actual protoype of the Athearn caboose was a Santa Fe prototype, but it's still available today. (if you really want to get technical, Athearn's "GP-9" was really patterned after a Southern Pacific passenger GP-7 <G>). Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5360	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN

That sounds like the typical Athearn "Santa Fe" style caboose--the lettering Is that of an SP car--there were a couple of these--probably equipped with roller bearings--for the Overnight, then the Pig trains between SF and LA. (Athearn's bay window car is an SP prototype--wish I could find 2 or 3 sets of the cast metal antenna and marker lights. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "mikearmadilloaviation" <mikearmadilloaviation@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 7:59 AM Subject: [vintageHO] HOBBY TOWN > Wow, What a nice response from everybody!! I wish to thank all of you > who have responded to my question. I beleive the frame and motor are > Athern, Not sure of age and the shell is probably Athern also. As to > the Yellow box Athern caboose, It is marked as a C-30-4 rpkd 4-20-57 > S.P.RR L.A. these markings are located lower right hand side. Road # > 1177 with RADIO EQUIPPED between the 2 right windows. This side has > the cupola to the left and 3 windows. Looking at the other side, with > the cupola on the right,There are 5 windows with the same markings. > Both sides also have TRAILER-FLATCAR SERVICE on the sides. Someone also > added metal sprung trucks.The overall color is silver and this appears > to be a standard caboose that was probably in production for many years > as I have some of the newer ones but in different roads. I am hoping > that this paticular model is as old as the box, Which is in mint > condition. Thank you all again for all your help . > Mike > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5361	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Just getting back here after a few days away from the 'putor, and I see I have a little catching up to do. Now I see why there was some confusion years ago between the IMP couplers and the Baker, and why some people called them (the IMP's Kupeeze) Baker couplers -- they had been mislead too. Thanks for clarifying that point, I thought they looked very close. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Re: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody PhotoThe "Kupeeze" was a mirror image of the Baker--People used to send them to John Allen, and then to Allan Fenton, as Bakers. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Louis Greiff > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:31 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > > > Kupeeze! I haven't hear that word in decades. Every IMP car came with a pair. I saved them but never used them. I stuck with the misnamed "NMRA" couplers, then transitioned to Kadee pre-magnetic knuckle couplers when I found out about them. Now I use Kadee #148 whisker couplers for most applications. (with couplers, vintage just doesn't cut it for me). I've tried the Kadee scale couplers for a more prototypical appearance, but find that they don't interact flawlessly with #5 size knuckles in uncoupling and offsetting operations, and almost my entire fleet of freight cars is equipped with #5s. If we're talking purely about appearance, the old Devore couplers can't be beat in my opinion. > > Lou > > > On 2/13/08 9:04 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > I'll definitely be checking out the album right after this post (you > always come up with neat stuff, and/or restore it nicely). The ACL > is one of the few I'm missing. I believe that was one of the roads > offered early last month, but I failed to place a bid on it. > > That IMP NYC heavyweight coach is a real gem; NICE FIND! Its in the > catalogs as coming with either brass or aluminum sides -- your > choice. Its also described as being minutely detailed (& painted), > and it lists all the details that went into it; real nice looking car. > > Does your car have their "famous automatic KUPEEZE" couplers? This > was one point I was meaning to bring up earlier in this thread, since > there was some discussion on Mantua couplers (or "hook & loop" in > general) a few weeks ago. I've never operated with them, but they > look like those big hooks would hold even in a long drag. Ugly > though, but that was way before Kadee's came along and other choices > weren't much better looking. Way back when, I had thought these were > the Baker couplers I had only heard about then. Anyone have these on > their IMP cars? Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > wrote: > > > > I have 2 of the box cars > > WP 20808 in silver > > ACL 31459 in boxcar red > > > > Both are pictired in the "zdon dellmann's stuff" album in the group > photo > > section. > > > > I also have an IMP NYC heavyweight coacj that I haven't posted to > an album > > because it's not lettered yet. > > > > Don > > > > don.dellmann@ > > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > > Owner-Moderator > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > > Co-owner > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5362	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Many of my MDC metal car kits came with Devore couplers included with them. The small enveloped even had Devore printed on them. I do see the MDC couplers included in the 1953 catalog though. Perhaps MDC used Devores until they could market their own, but that's only speculation, but the inclusion of these couplers seems to indicate it was possible. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Those operating knuckles in the MDC kits were MDC's own couplers. There > were slight differences with Devores. MDC's were a bit sharper detailed. > They also made them in O. gj >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5363	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

Just thought I'd mention it was an ACL car that I saw, but I was pretty sure he did advertise it as International, so it may not have been the same seller. He had loads of stuff in all scales and I think he had over 800 items in H0 and even more (around 1200) in 0; it stretched on for better than a week as he kept re-listing the ones that didn't get a bid first time around. I sent him a check on Jan. 7th, so his auction actually started back in late December. Does M&W Internet Auations on Main ring a bell? That's who it was. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > The ACL car may be the one you saw, The seller was advertising it as > "Athearn or Globe", I picked up about a dozen cars from him, all were nice > stuff, all in the $5-10 range. > > The IMP coach was actually an unpainted kit. The sides appeared to be > tinplate, just like the Walthers cars, I didn't pay all that much attention. > They may have been aluminum. The car is built now of course, I should see > if the sides are magnetic. > > Didn't have the kupeeze couplers, the passenger car was less trucks and > couplers, the box car already had Kadees on it when I bought it. > > I did get some Varney passenger cars once though that had Bakers. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5364	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: GN Boxcar 10094

Hi Ray, Let us know what you guys come up with. I'm sure there's a here that are curious with what you're finding. Will be waiting for the results. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rayzef" <rayzef@...> wrote: > > Hi RayW > Russ will be over on the weekend so we will checkout all the kits > together and see if we can positively identify of the kit, will post > results. > RayZ > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, That sure does sound different! And you're sure its all > > original, or would you suspect some of the parts may have been replaced > > somewhere along the way? In off-line discussions on these cars, Russ > > has pointed out that he has 6 built up Tenshodo cars in original white > > cardboard boxes, so your white box may stand a good chance as being > > original, especially if the "D&RGW Boxcar" marking matches the contents > > and was factory printed. Beyond that, Russ may be able to tell you > > more about this box. If your kit is 100% original, it shows the > > different variations of them, depending on what materials were most > > readily available at the time. Can't help you on the possibility of > > your ready-to-run models being Ken Kidder; I'm not that familiar with > > all their products, only that they offered trolley cars in the > > late '70's -- early '80's. Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rayzef" <rayzef@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi All > > > I have a mint kit of the boxcar, it is different to all the Tenshodo > > > kits I own, as it has a machined brass roofwalk. The Tenshodo and most > > > of my New One kits have a diecast roofwalk. > > > The kit has painted metal sides ,unpainted roof and ends, diecast > > > doors, wood body with diecast underframe. The most annoying thing it > > > did not come in its original box, it is in a plain white box marked > > > D&RGW Boxcar .Quite a few of my New One/Tenshodo are also in the same > > > type of box, before Tenshodo started putting on the blue labels. > > > Checking the IMP kits they have diecast roofwalks, so it makes it > > > difficult to pin a make down exact!! > > > I have two ready to run models that are constructed the same, they are > > > in a red color box with gray label, the same as Ken Kidder used but > > > not sure they are Ken Kidder?? > > > > > > Ray Z > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5365	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Hello Tom, Congrats on getting that Penn Line Crusader. I presume it was the same one that was just up on eBay, since its missing the trailing truck. While I know it wasn't cheap (none are if you can find them), yours was an exceptionally great buy, especially as its a factory assembled and painted one. The last one that just went up on eBay January 27th went for $1525, and the previous one on December 17th went for $1200. I believe the one before that also went for $1200+ and there were a couple a bit over $900 (one incomplete one went for $600+). You did extremely well! I don't think an original trailing truck will be too easy to find, so you may have to improvise, at least for now, with modifying a Bowser K-4 truck. Even when Bowser was still offering drivers and running gear for this model back in their mid '70's catalogs, neither of the engine trucks were being offered at that time. Lots of luck with it, you've got a gem. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: > > Hello gentlemen. I was lucky enough to pick up a Penn Line crusader > yesterday that needs a rear truck on the loco. Does anyone have one > they are willing to part with? Much appriciated, thanks, Tom >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5366	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Hi Dave, Nickle Plate Products made a nice looking RDG Crusader back in the mid-'80's. It was available either separately or with the set of 5 cars. If you could find one, I doubt it would cost any more than a Penn Line, although I can't say how well it would run. For the most part, those brass models never had the best reputation as being good runners. The early United models ran well though. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > HI Tom: > > You want to sell that Penn Line Crusader????? I have looked for one for > years, and the only thing that comes close is a current run IHC engine > that is essentially a "streamlined" 4-6-2 painted silver and lettered in > Gothic with the name "Crusader". Not sure this will do for me.. LOL. > > The IHC model doesn't have the art deco shroud..... > > Dave F > > > > ************** > The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy > Awards. Go to AOL Music. > > (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5367	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

There was a brass RDG Crusader sold Saturday at Maurer's train auction.  The prices shold be available about Wednesday on their website. Garry On 2/17/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Hi Dave, Nickle Plate Products made a nice looking RDG Crusader back in the mid-'80's. It was available either separately or with the set of 5 cars. If you could find one, I doubt it would cost any more than a Penn Line, although I can't say how well it would run. For the most part, those brass models never had the best reputation as being good runners. The early United models ran well though. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > HI Tom: > > You want to sell that Penn Line Crusader????? I have looked for one for > years, and the only thing that comes close is a current run IHC engine > that is essentially a "streamlined" 4-6-2 painted silver and lettered in > Gothic with the name "Crusader". Not sure this will do for me.. LOL. > > The IHC model doesn't have the art deco shroud..... > > Dave F > > > > ************** > The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy > Awards. Go to AOL Music. > > (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5368	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Hi Ray: Appreciate the tip regarding brass models. I don't buy brass though, as I've owned a few in years past, when it was "affordable", but as you say, the performance levels were terrible in many cases. Balboa was the worst I think, with Hallmark diesels being a cut above. I never liked Tenshodo. The only brass still left here is a PRR caboose, and maybe one small brass logging loco. Everything else these days is good old, last forever plastic. Seems brass, by and large, has left much of the model RR scene and is more or less in the realm of collectors..... Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5369	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Hi Ray, I can't say how the Nickel Plate model runs, But I have one of the Ajin (Korea) Reading Crusader sets (engine and 5 cars) imported by MTS in the late 1990's. It is an excellent running model. There were only 200 of the sets made and they also sold the engine separately (I believe that was a 150 each run). The sets are selling for around $2,500, when they come up for auction. I have seen the engine only for around $1,300. I have seen the Nickel Plate model selling in the range of $900, probably close to what the Penn Line model is currently selling for in excellent condition.   Brian Look Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5370	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:43 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Metal GN Boxcar Underbody Photo > Just thought I'd mention it was an ACL car that I saw, but I was > pretty sure he did advertise it as International, so it may not have > been the same seller. He had loads of stuff in all scales and I > think he had over 800 items in H0 and even more (around 1200) in 0; > it stretched on for better than a week as he kept re-listing the ones > that didn't get a bid first time around. I sent him a check on Jan. > 7th, so his auction actually started back in late December. Does M&W > Internet Auations on Main ring a bell? That's who it was. Ray This particular car came from "dandd05" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120201303998 He's in upstate New York, I have bought a number of cars from "MWInternetAuctionson Main" though, in fact a month ago I mention getting some "Middlebrook" WOODEN streamliner kits, they came from them. They're across the river from Cincinnati in Northern Kentucky somewhere. I've always been satisfied with them. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5371	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN

Actually--SP's passenger geeps had dual controls--and the nose stripes both directions. indicated that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOBBY TOWN > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mikearmadilloaviation" <mikearmadilloaviation@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:59 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] HOBBY TOWN > > >> Wow, What a nice response from everybody!! I wish to thank all of you >> who have responded to my question. I beleive the frame and motor are >> Athern, Not sure of age and the shell is probably Athern also. As to >> the Yellow box Athern caboose, It is marked as a C-30-4 rpkd 4-20-57 >> S.P.RR L.A. these markings are located lower right hand side. Road # >> 1177 with RADIO EQUIPPED between the 2 right windows. This side has >> the cupola to the left and 3 windows. Looking at the other side, with >> the cupola on the right,There are 5 windows with the same markings. >> Both sides also have TRAILER-FLATCAR SERVICE on the sides. Someone also >> added metal sprung trucks.The overall color is silver and this appears >> to be a standard caboose that was probably in production for many years >> as I have some of the newer ones but in different roads. I am hoping >> that this paticular model is as old as the box, Which is in mint >> condition. Thank you all again for all your help . >> Mike > > Actually, from that vintage the metal sprung trucks may very well have > been > stock. One tip might be if the covers to the coupler pockets are held on > with screws or if they're just an extension of the underframe. (The > screw-on covers are older). > > On your Geep.... > > The original units will have the dynamic brake blisters on the side of the > long hood as separate pieces glued on, the horns will stick out the front > and back of the cab instead of being on top of the short hood and the > handrail stanchions will be more round, with flatted tops and holes for > the > handrail to pass through rather than the rolled flat metal ones of later > years. The attached pictures are an original which may show some of the > things I'm talking about. > > The actual protoype of the Athearn caboose was a Santa Fe prototype, but > it's still available today. (if you really want to get technical, > Athearn's > "GP-9" was really patterned after a Southern Pacific passenger GP-7 <G>). > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5372	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN

I recall Athearn early using the metal sprung trucks just like the ones with the metal kits--then they "simplified" assembly with those goofy rubber springs--fortunately you could buy an envelope of real springs and assemble them properly. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOBBY TOWN > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mikearmadilloaviation" <mikearmadilloaviation@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:59 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] HOBBY TOWN > > >> Wow, What a nice response from everybody!! I wish to thank all of you >> who have responded to my question. I beleive the frame and motor are >> Athern, Not sure of age and the shell is probably Athern also. As to >> the Yellow box Athern caboose, It is marked as a C-30-4 rpkd 4-20-57 >> S.P.RR L.A. these markings are located lower right hand side. Road # >> 1177 with RADIO EQUIPPED between the 2 right windows. This side has >> the cupola to the left and 3 windows. Looking at the other side, with >> the cupola on the right,There are 5 windows with the same markings. >> Both sides also have TRAILER-FLATCAR SERVICE on the sides. Someone also >> added metal sprung trucks.The overall color is silver and this appears >> to be a standard caboose that was probably in production for many years >> as I have some of the newer ones but in different roads. I am hoping >> that this paticular model is as old as the box, Which is in mint >> condition. Thank you all again for all your help . >> Mike > > Actually, from that vintage the metal sprung trucks may very well have > been > stock. One tip might be if the covers to the coupler pockets are held on > with screws or if they're just an extension of the underframe. (The > screw-on covers are older). > > On your Geep.... > > The original units will have the dynamic brake blisters on the side of the > long hood as separate pieces glued on, the horns will stick out the front > and back of the cab instead of being on top of the short hood and the > handrail stanchions will be more round, with flatted tops and holes for > the > handrail to pass through rather than the rolled flat metal ones of later > years. The attached pictures are an original which may show some of the > things I'm talking about. > > The actual protoype of the Athearn caboose was a Santa Fe prototype, but > it's still available today. (if you really want to get technical, > Athearn's > "GP-9" was really patterned after a Southern Pacific passenger GP-7 <G>). > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5373	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

List: Have about 8 or 9 Triang OO scale passenger cars in various states of disassembly. These were last made around 1960, or earlier, and follow (roughly) the Budd car style. These are silver with blue letter boards, and lettered B&O. Included are diners, coaches, dome obs, and 2 baggage cars. OO scale was most likely built to a scale of 1:85, but ran on HO track. It is a little bit larger than HO, but not much. FYI, until 1960, Fleischmann (Germany) was also building HO in scale of 1:85, and then adopted the current 1:87 scale around 1960, or a few years later. Concurrent with that change, Fleischmann stopped making US-style trains altogether, most of which weren't correct anyway (Most of their steamers and a lot of their off-the-shelf passenger cars were "Americanized" versions of existing German prototypes. Their steamers had US-style pilots (cow catchers) added, along with American road names, and their passenger cars were generally German prototypes painted and lettered for US roads. The exceptions were the ATSF hi-level cars, last produced in 1958). Not sure if Triang (Hornby-Triang today) still makes US style rolling stock. Does anyone know? Did Triang ever make US prototype locomotives? I have seen their passenger cars at several train shows, but have never seen locos or freight cars made by them. Similar cars were offered in CP some years ago. These cars are for sale if any collectors or restorers are interested. I was going to rebuild them, and completed 2 of them, but have since lost interest. One car is silver and lettered "Burlington", so I assume they were issued in CB&Q roadnames as well. These cars approximate 72 or 75 footers, and all of them have interiors appropriate to their body styles (which was largely unheard of prior to 1960 for factory issued plastic cars). Comments regarding Triang are welcome. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5374	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOBBY TOWN >I recall Athearn early using the metal sprung trucks just like the ones >with > the metal kits--then they "simplified" assembly with those goofy rubber > springs--fortunately you could buy an envelope of real springs and > assemble > them properly. My first Athearn kits ca. 1959-60 came with the trucks dissassembled. I recall seeing the rubber springs on a car at my Godfather's, and thought it was a neat idea. Of course I was 12 years old at the time and actually had my mother putting the trucks together because she had the most nimble fingers in the family :-) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5375	From: Tom Hare	Date: 2/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Thanks Ray, you are correct, it was the won that just sold on eby last week.  Thanks for the info on the trailing truck.  I talked to Dan Bushat Yardbird about it and he seems to thinnk that a guy in Nevada will be able to make me one out of brass but I need one to send him to copy, that might be even tougher yet to get someone to let me borrow it to send to him to copy.  If that does not work out I will go the Bowser route.  Thanks Tom erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Hello Tom, Congrats on getting that Penn Line Crusader. I presume it was the same one that was just up on eBay, since its missing the trailing truck. While I know it wasn't cheap (none are if you can find them), yours was an exceptionally great buy, especially as its a factory assembled and painted one. The last one that just went up on eBay January 27th went for $1525, and the previous one on December 17th went for $1200. I believe the one before that also went for $1200+ and there were a couple a bit over $900 (one incomplete one went for $600+). You did extremely well! I don't think an original trailing truck will be too easy to find, so you may have to improvise, at least for now, with modifying a Bowser K-4 truck. Even when Bowser was still offering drivers and running gear for this model back in their mid '70's catalogs, neither of the engine trucks were being offered at that time. Lots of luck with it, you've got a gem. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ ...> wrote: > > Hello gentlemen. I was lucky enough to pick up a Penn Line crusader > yesterday that needs a rear truck on the loco. Does anyone have one > they are willing to part with? Much appriciated, thanks, Tom > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5376	From: erieberk	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Hi Tom, Let me know if a copy of the P-L Crusader plans (showing the rear truck) would help your guy in Nevada. If so, I'll send you a copy. It is a distinctive truck, as Penn Line (or Bowser) never used this truck on any other of their models, and it doesn't even come close in the cast-on bearing design of trucks use on any of the present models. The forward "lip" to attach the truck to the loco frame is also cast as stepped up, rather than just straight, but if the "bowser route" is the only alternative you can get around that difference by attaching a Z shaped piece of flat brass to gain the needed height. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hare <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: > > Thanks Ray, you are correct, it was the won that just sold on eby last week. Thanks for the info on the trailing truck. I talked to Dan Bushat Yardbird about it and he seems to thinnk that a guy in Nevada will be able to make me one out of brass but I need one to send him to copy, that might be even tougher yet to get someone to let me borrow it to send to him to copy. If that does not work out I will go the Bowser route. Thanks Tom > > erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Hello Tom, Congrats on getting that Penn Line Crusader. I presume > it was the same one that was just up on eBay, since its missing the > trailing truck. While I know it wasn't cheap (none are if you can > find them), yours was an exceptionally great buy, especially as its a > factory assembled and painted one. The last one that just went up on > eBay January 27th went for $1525, and the previous one on December > 17th went for $1200. I believe the one before that also went for > $1200+ and there were a couple a bit over $900 (one incomplete one > went for $600+). You did extremely well! > > I don't think an original trailing truck will be too easy to find, so > you may have to improvise, at least for now, with modifying a Bowser > K-4 truck. Even when Bowser was still offering drivers and running > gear for this model back in their mid '70's catalogs, neither of the > engine trucks were being offered at that time. Lots of luck with it, > you've got a gem. Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@> wrote: > > > > Hello gentlemen. I was lucky enough to pick up a Penn Line > crusader > > yesterday that needs a rear truck on the loco. Does anyone have > one > > they are willing to part with? Much appriciated, thanks, Tom > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5377	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

It is funny Tom,   I was thinking the same thing... I was thinking I needed to buy one now so we could get a mold from it and make one for you... well that was kind of the secondary thought..   You know I am going to have to get one anyway... just to keep up with the Jones's... aka the Thares.   Have a great day off!  Mr. Easy life!   Sean Tom Hare <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: Thanks Ray, you are correct, it was the won that just sold on eby last week.  Thanks for the info on the trailing truck.  I talked to Dan Bushat Yardbird about it and he seems to thinnk that a guy in Nevada will be able to make me one out of brass but I need one to send him to copy, that might be even tougher yet to get someone to let me borrow it to send to him to copy.  If that does not work out I will go the Bowser route.  Thanks Tom erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect. com> wrote: Hello Tom, Congrats on getting that Penn Line Crusader. I presume it was the same one that was just up on eBay, since its missing the trailing truck. While I know it wasn't cheap (none are if you can find them), yours was an exceptionally great buy, especially as its a factory assembled and painted one. The last one that just went up on eBay January 27th went for $1525, and the previous one on December 17th went for $1200. I believe the one before that also went for $1200+ and there were a couple a bit over $900 (one incomplete one went for $600+). You did extremely well! I don't think an original trailing truck will be too easy to find, so you may have to improvise, at least for now, with modifying a Bowser K-4 truck. Even when Bowser was still offering drivers and running gear for this model back in their mid '70's catalogs, neither of the engine trucks were being offered at that time. Lots of luck with it, you've got a gem. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ ...> wrote: > > Hello gentlemen. I was lucky enough to pick up a Penn Line crusader > yesterday that needs a rear truck on the loco. Does anyone have one > they are willing to part with? Much appriciated, thanks, Tom > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5378	From: Tom Hare	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Yeah, get one, then you can come over and we can race them on the layout that will soon be constructed.  that will be fun!  I am working today by the way.  Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: It is funny Tom,   I was thinking the same thing... I was thinking I needed to buy one now so we could get a mold from it and make one for you... well that was kind of the secondary thought..   You know I am going to have to get one anyway... just to keep up with the Jones's... aka the Thares.   Have a great day off!  Mr. Easy life!   Sean Tom Hare <jodanjackkayla@ yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks Ray, you are correct, it was the won that just sold on eby last week.  Thanks for the info on the trailing truck.  I talked to Dan Bushat Yardbird about it and he seems to thinnk that a guy in Nevada will be able to make me one out of brass but I need one to send him to copy, that might be even tougher yet to get someone to let me borrow it to send to him to copy.  If that does not work out I will go the Bowser route.  Thanks Tom erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect. com> wrote: Hello Tom, Congrats on getting that Penn Line Crusader. I presume it was the same one that was just up on eBay, since its missing the trailing truck. While I know it wasn't cheap (none are if you can find them), yours was an exceptionally great buy, especially as its a factory assembled and painted one. The last one that just went up on eBay January 27th went for $1525, and the previous one on December 17th went for $1200. I believe the one before that also went for $1200+ and there were a couple a bit over $900 (one incomplete one went for $600+). You did extremely well! I don't think an original trailing truck will be too easy to find, so you may have to improvise, at least for now, with modifying a Bowser K-4 truck. Even when Bowser was still offering drivers and running gear for this model back in their mid '70's catalogs, neither of the engine trucks were being offered at that time. Lots of luck with it, you've got a gem. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ ...> wrote: > > Hello gentlemen. I was lucky enough to pick up a Penn Line crusader > yesterday that needs a rear truck on the loco. Does anyone have one > they are willing to part with? Much appriciated, thanks, Tom > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5379	From: Tom Hare	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Hi Ray, yes I could sure use a copy of the plans.  that would be great.  I will email you my address.  thansk again. Tom erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Hi Tom, Let me know if a copy of the P-L Crusader plans (showing the rear truck) would help your guy in Nevada. If so, I'll send you a copy. It is a distinctive truck, as Penn Line (or Bowser) never used this truck on any other of their models, and it doesn't even come close in the cast-on bearing design of trucks use on any of the present models. The forward "lip" to attach the truck to the loco frame is also cast as stepped up, rather than just straight, but if the "bowser route" is the only alternative you can get around that difference by attaching a Z shaped piece of flat brass to gain the needed height. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Tom Hare <jodanjackkayla@ ...> wrote: > > Thanks Ray, you are correct, it was the won that just sold on eby last week. Thanks for the info on the trailing truck. I talked to Dan Bushat Yardbird about it and he seems to thinnk that a guy in Nevada will be able to make me one out of brass but I need one to send him to copy, that might be even tougher yet to get someone to let me borrow it to send to him to copy. If that does not work out I will go the Bowser route. Thanks Tom > > erieberk <erieberk@.. .> wrote: Hello Tom, Congrats on getting that Penn Line Crusader. I presume > it was the same one that was just up on eBay, since its missing the > trailing truck. While I know it wasn't cheap (none are if you can > find them), yours was an exceptionally great buy, especially as its a > factory assembled and painted one. The last one that just went up on > eBay January 27th went for $1525, and the previous one on December > 17th went for $1200. I believe the one before that also went for > $1200+ and there were a couple a bit over $900 (one incomplete one > went for $600+). You did extremely well! > > I don't think an original trailing truck will be too easy to find, so > you may have to improvise, at least for now, with modifying a Bowser > K-4 truck. Even when Bowser was still offering drivers and running > gear for this model back in their mid '70's catalogs, neither of the > engine trucks were being offered at that time. Lots of luck with it, > you've got a gem. Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ > wrote: > > > > Hello gentlemen. I was lucky enough to pick up a Penn Line > crusader > > yesterday that needs a rear truck on the loco. Does anyone have > one > > they are willing to part with? Much appriciated, thanks, Tom > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5380	From: Graeme	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

In message <bc3.223d8bad.34ea14a4@...>, WK2SHR@... writes >Comments regarding Triang are welcome. Hi Dave, I am far from a Tri-ang expert, but do not recall any issued with specific road names except Canadian Pacific. Earlier cars were marked Transcontinental, or just Tri-ang Railways, rather like the Lionel cars lettered Lionel Lines. There is a wonderful site dedicated to Tri-ang, with many, many illustrations : http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/ Regarding the name Tri-ang Hornby, Hornby was the name of the trains made by Meccano Limited - trains were 0 gauge tinplate and, later 00, which was to a scale of 1/72nd, and called Hornby Dublo, running on H0 track. Following the demise of Meccano Limited in 1964, Tri-ang Railways bought the Hornby name, and rebranded their trains as Tri-ang Hornby, eventually dropping the Tri-ang part. Tri-ang wanted the Hornby name, as Hornby is toy trains in the UK, as Lionel is toy trains in the US. The Hornby name continues today, although, like Lionel, has been through several changes of ownership http://www.hornby.com -- Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5381	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: HOBBY TOWN

>I recall Athearn early using the metal sprung trucks just like the ones with >the metal kits--then they "simplified" assembly with those goofy rubber >springs--fortunately you could buy an envelope of real springs and assemble >them properly. The Athearn sprung trucks were the very worst of all the metal sprung trucks of that era ('50s). They followed no known prototype, were extremely irregular (no two trucks were alike), the wheel sets were terrible (and they rolled and wobbled even worse), and for those trying to make them run decently in modern days, they require wheel sets with greatly oversized axles (usually 1.045" - 1.055"). I keep these trucks around solely for historical reasons alone. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5382	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

The K4, or any other type of cast steel "Delta-type" truck would be definitely incorrect for the Crusader G1 locomotive, which had a fabricated trailing truck with very prominent spoked wheels. Inasmuch as most of the trailing truck is hidden behind the very low streamlined sheathing, one could probably get away with a good stand-in, such as the trailing truck from a Bowser NYC Pacific (still available, I believe). Spoked wheels (40-42", I believe) can be readily obtained from UK suppliers. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5383	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

Dear Group,     This is a general question rather than one regarding a specific vintage HO item.   Do we have a clear idea of what’s vintage and what’s not?  I ask because in the give-and-take of our discussions, this issue has come up, with some items declared to be “not vintage” and others declared to be on the border.  For me vintage is anything before 1960, including all pre-plastic and only the very first plastic items, (e.g. Kurtz Kraft freight cars), but this is the subjective opinion of one individual model railroader.  Our group seems too informal to have an official rule on this, but do we have a working consensus on what constitutes vintage vs. non-vintage?                                                                                                                                                         Lou                                                                                                                                      On 2/18/08 10:46 AM, "Graeme" <groups@...> wrote:     In message <bc3.223d8bad.34ea14a4@... <mailto:bc3.223d8bad.34ea14a4%40aol.com> >, WK2SHR@... <mailto:WK2SHR%40aol.com>  writes >Comments regarding Triang are welcome. Hi Dave, I am far from a Tri-ang expert, but do not recall any issued with specific road names except Canadian Pacific.  Earlier cars were marked Transcontinental, or just Tri-ang Railways, rather like the Lionel cars lettered Lionel Lines. There is a wonderful site dedicated to Tri-ang, with many, many illustrations : http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/ Regarding the name Tri-ang Hornby, Hornby was the name of the trains made by Meccano Limited - trains were 0 gauge tinplate and, later 00, which was to a scale of 1/72nd, and called Hornby Dublo, running on H0 track.  Following the demise of Meccano Limited in 1964, Tri-ang Railways bought the Hornby name, and rebranded their trains as Tri-ang Hornby, eventually dropping the Tri-ang part.  Tri-ang wanted the Hornby name, as Hornby is toy trains in the UK, as Lionel is toy trains in the US. The Hornby name continues today, although, like Lionel, has been through several changes of ownership http://www.hornby.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5384	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

I tend to cut off at the transition to the modern-era models.  If it is essentially the same as presently or recently on sale in the hobby shop, it is too modern.    Example of specific points: Mantua--die cast flat car.  All before that were the mixed construction.  After that simple car came the ones with the die-cast frame and plastic body, like we were kicking around a couple of weeks ago.   MDC--again a flat car--that little shorty flat with the die cast frame and plastic body.  After that, almost everything was that type.   Varney--I set at the short-lived construction type with the lithographed sheet metal bodies and the various types of underframes.    Kurtz Kraft was definitely a landmark.  They were ahead of their time. Modelers were not into that type of kit yet.    Locomotives are a different story.  In Mantua I consider the "Mighty Mite" 0-4-0 with tender the transition--it was basically the construction of the earlier "Goat" but with a die cast cab.   Varney, I'd say "Casey Jones"--went to the more modern production methods.  The F-3 started in Zamak and wound up in plastic.  MDC is really difficult as the 0-6-0 went through evolutionary changes from its introduction in 1938-39.  The cab went from five pieces to one piece Zamak to one piece plastic.    That's my opinion on where "Vintage" ends--what about others?   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Dear Group,     This is a general question rather than one regarding a specific vintage HO item.   Do we have a clear idea of what’s vintage and what’s not?  I ask because in the give-and-take of our discussions, this issue has come up, with some items declared to be “not vintage” and others declared to be on the border.  For me vintage is anything before 1960, including all pre-plastic and only the very first plastic items, (e.g. Kurtz Kraft freight cars), but this is the subjective opinion of one individual model railroader.  Our group seems too informal to have an official rule on this, but do we have a working consensus on what constitutes vintage vs. non-vintage?                                                                                                                                                         Lou                                                                                                                                      On

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5385	From: erieberk	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader Parts

Denny, We know the Delta-type trailing truck is definitely incorrect; I don't know anyone here who may have suggested it was right. As I said, the original Penn Line Crusader trailing truck is quite distinctive from any other Penn Line (or Bowser) engine produced, but its the better of the two, which would include the NYC K-11 Pacific. That trailing truck is even further from the RDG Pacific style, with its (NYC's) hugh leaf springs sitting prominantly over the bearings. When the proper trailing truck can't be found, a replacement of some sort is better than a "4-6-0 Pacific". In either event though, the shrouding will cover most of it so it should be of comparatively little concern even though of course the original (if located) would be preferred. Another choice which may be only slighly easier to find would be the Mantua RDG G-3 trailing truck, since it was the same truck used on the prototypes, regardless of shrouding or not. It would still need to be modified to be able to adapt to the Penn Line, but its appearance would be very close. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote: > > The K4, or any other type of cast steel "Delta-type" truck would be > definitely incorrect for the Crusader G1 locomotive, which had a > fabricated trailing truck with very prominent spoked wheels. Inasmuch > as most of the trailing truck is hidden behind the very low > streamlined sheathing, one could probably get away with a good > stand-in, such as the trailing truck from a Bowser NYC Pacific (still > available, I believe). Spoked wheels (40-42", I believe) can be > readily obtained from UK suppliers. > > Denny > -- > Denny S. Anspach, MD > Sacramento >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5386	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

Hi GJ: It's really hard to determine "what" is really "vintage". Pre-1960 sounds good, but then too anything that has been discontinued among the old lines sounds like a good candidate, especially if the original mfrs have been out of business for a long time (like Mantua, Varney, American Beauty, even later Ertl). Seems that maybe even Tyco might qualify, even though they made mostly junk, but they too have been gone a long time now and their existing products might best be considered somewhat "vintage". What about Cox, discontinued American prototype by Lima and PMI and maybe some other odd-ball brands that no longer exist, but for which there is still some interest? Just my thoughts, Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5387	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

Hi Graeme: Appreciated the interesting write up on Hornby, Dublo and Tri-ang. I wasn't aware that OO was to a scale of 1/72. Seems rather large -- too large to come even close to HO. The Tri-ang cars that I have have 1:85 on the side of the box, so I am wondering if those folks made more than one scale, perhaps a different scale for the North American market at one time. FWIW, the OO scale cars seem to run well with the HO cars. The OO Tri-angs are a tiny bit larger than HO in a train, but their biggest giveaway is in the size and style of their trucks (passenger cars). At best, these might approximiate something that the late, great Milwaukee Road was known for in its latter day passenger trains: huge and over-sized truck sideframes. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5388	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

Hi Dave, Well, you know me well enough to know that I'm into vintage AHM, but I also like old Bowser/Penn Line and stuff of that nature, I do have an old Varney metal side coach, I restored it about 2 years ago, when I first got it, the guys over at the local train shop were aghast! The car had seen better days, but its in pristine condition now, I do have an old Bowser/Penn Line H9 consolidation, its still mostly in kit form, the guy who started it couldn't figure out where the bind in the mechanism is, that one is definitely a subject for Resurrecting The Dinosaurs.. There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:27:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi GJ: It's really hard to determine "what" is really "vintage". Pre-1960 sounds good, but then too anything that has been discontinued among the old lines sounds like a good candidate, especially if the original mfrs have been out of business for a long time (like Mantua, Varney, American Beauty, even later Ertl). Seems that maybe even Tyco might qualify, even though they made mostly junk, but they too have been gone a long time now and their existing products might best be considered somewhat "vintage". What about Cox, discontinued American prototype by Lima and PMI and maybe some other odd-ball brands that no longer exist, but for which there is still some interest? Just my thoughts, Dave F ************ ** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living. aol.com/video/ how-to-please- your-picky- eater/rachel- campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID= aolcmp0030000000 2598) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5389	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

My original conception was equipment from the early 1960's and before.  That is not a "hard & fast" rule,  I myself have talked about Quality Craft models from the mid 70's, just because they're a type of construction you no longer see, and my Aerotrain is a Bowser reissue.  I am far from a purist, I love the Varney F-3 shells, but mine mostly ride on Athearn chassis.  I am building passeger cars from Varney cardstock sides, with Northeastern wood roof and floor, but plastic ends and cast steps from Bethlehem car works.  Is that vintage?, maybe not, but it still evokes the feel of what model railroading USED to be, when a modeller was rated by his creativity and talent, unlike today when the measure of a modeller is the size of the credit limit on his Visa card.   I think it's more of a "feel" for what constitutes models from the "golden age" of model railroading (my own subjective description).  Silver streak cars are vintage, even though they're still made today (as in fact Kurtz Kraft cars were most recently offered by Cannonball Car shops to use your own example).  For example, I'd say an Athearn plastic boxcar with no claws on the doors, screw covers on the coupler pockets, and spring trucks is "vintage".  The same car with claws, metal coupler covers and all delrin trucks is not.  Aristo craft is vintage, AHM is not (although some early pieces may be considered such, like the "minicars" line of Angoplas automobiles), IHC would be DEFINITELY off topic.    The recent discussion on Train Miniature was borderline, but, with the current changes in the hobby to ready to run garbage from China, they do evoke nostalgia.  It's like the '72 Chevy Impala convertible I bought new to impress a girl (who's still married to me) is now considered a "classic".  I thought it was a piece of junk and was glad to sell it off a few years later.   If you want to talk about Bachmann and P2000 and DCC, there's lots of other lists.  If you're going to be a puckerbutt about how it's only collectable if it's blueprint stock and locked in a glass case, you probably won't be happy here.  If you just want to have fun with the trains we grew up with, jump in, the water's fine.   I don't know if this answers your question or not, and anyone else who has thoughts on this, feel free to chime in.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Dear Group,     This is a general question rather than one regarding a specific vintage HO item.   Do we have a clear idea of what’s vintage and what’s not?  I ask because in the give-and-take of our discussions, this issue has come up, with some items declared to be “not vintage” and others declared to be on the border.  For me vintage is anything before 1960, including all pre-plastic and only the very first plastic items, (e.g. Kurtz Kraft freight cars), but this is the subjective opinion of one individual model railroader.  Our group seems too informal to have an official rule on this, but do we have a working consensus on what constitutes vintage vs. non-vintage?                                                                                                                                                         Lou                                                                                                                                      On 2/18/08 10:46 AM, "Graeme" <groups@...> wrote:     In message <bc3.223d8bad.34ea14a4@... <mailto:bc3.223d8bad.34ea14a4%40aol.com> >, WK2SHR@... <mailto:WK2SHR%40aol.com>  writes >Comments regarding Triang are welcome. Hi Dave, I am far from a Tri-ang expert, but do not recall any issued with specific road names except Canadian Pacific.  Earlier cars were marked Transcontinental, or just Tri-ang Railways, rather like the Lionel cars lettered Lionel Lines. There is a wonderful site dedicated to Tri-ang, with many, many illustrations : http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/ Regarding the name Tri-ang Hornby, Hornby was the name of the trains made by Meccano Limited - trains were 0 gauge tinplate and, later 00, which was to a scale of 1/72nd, and called Hornby Dublo, running on H0 track.  Following the demise of Meccano Limited in 1964, Tri-ang Railways bought the Hornby name, and rebranded their trains as Tri-ang Hornby, eventually dropping the Tri-ang part.  Tri-ang wanted the Hornby name, as Hornby is toy trains in the UK, as Lionel is toy trains in the US. The Hornby name continues today, although, like Lionel, has been through several changes of ownership http://www.hornby.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5390	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /La belle History Told by the Current Owner.doc Uploaded by : gthomas53189 <gthomas2@...> Description : La belle History Told by the Current Owner, Rick Steele You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/La%20belle%20History%20Told%20by%20the%20Current%20Owner.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, gthomas53189 <gthomas2@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5391	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

Actually I suppose that a lot depends on the starting vantage point--Those of us who are in our 60's are looking from a different point than someone in their 30's--could be what we consider it as what we had as kids.    What I did have in mind in my earlier post was that for many lines there was a point at which a major change took place in the technology used to produce the model.  It might be as if someone were to resurrect the old Ideal line of structures.  (these were lithographed, die-cut cardboard buildings with occasional wooden parts.Windows were printed on cellophane or possibly acetate sheet.   Our mythical new manufacturer of the line starts out using the old tooling and materials, but soon uses laser-cut very thin plywood with self-adhesive backing.  There we have out change in technology.  The cardboard ones would be collectible, the newer ones not.     I think a good example of a technology change is occurring right now in the steam loco field, with the locos comprising of a basic die-cast body with added-on brass details. (seems like it was just 40 or 50 years ago we were taking those "new-technology" Mantua die cast locos and carving off all the cast on piping to detail them just this way)   8^) These, of course, are displacing the bra$$ locos'   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi GJ: It's really hard to determine "what" is really "vintage". Pre-1960 sounds good, but then too anything that has been discontinued among the old lines sounds like a good candidate, especially if the original mfrs have been out of business for a long time (like Mantua, Varney, American Beauty, even later Ertl). Seems that maybe even Tyco might qualify, even though they made mostly junk, but they too have been gone a long time now and their existing products might best be considered somewhat "vintage". What about Cox, discontinued American prototype by Lima and PMI and maybe some other odd-ball brands that no longer exist, but for which there is still some interest? Just my thoughts, Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5392	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

I've uploaded a letter sent to me from Rick Steele of La Belle Woodworking, Wyoming, "The La belle History Told by the Current Owner, Rick Steele". We've been discussing the past owners and the time frame on this post. So, I email Mr. Steele and asked him to fill us in on any information he would have regarding this matter. As a true, down to earth hobbyist, he reply the very next day and I placed his letter in the "File" catagory. What I liked about the letter, he went into details as to how he acquired La Belle Woodworking and how he intends to keep it alive in todays market place. Good for him. Glen Thomas Waukesha, WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "lawrencehokanson" <dale.hokanson@...> wrote: > > Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? Their > site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to Watertown > sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their present > location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net and > see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) which > they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to find > an approximate date for them. > > Thanks > > Dale in Spokane >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5393	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Dave, Well, you know me well enough to know that I'm into vintage AHM, but I also like old Bowser/Penn Line and stuff of that nature, I do have an old Varney metal side coach, I restored it about 2 years ago, when I first got it, the guys over at the local train shop were aghast! The car had seen better days, but its in pristine condition now, I do have an old Bowser/Penn Line H9 consolidation, its still mostly in kit form, the guy who started it couldn't figure out where the bind in the mechanism is, that one is definitely a subject for Resurrecting The Dinosaurs.. There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 4:27:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi GJ: It's really hard to determine "what" is really "vintage". Pre-1960 sounds good, but then too anything that has been discontinued among the old lines sounds like a good candidate, especially if the original mfrs have been out of business for a long time (like Mantua, Varney, American Beauty, even later Ertl). Seems that maybe even Tyco might qualify, even though they made mostly junk, but they too have been gone a long time now and their existing products might best be considered somewhat "vintage". What about Cox, discontinued American prototype by Lima and PMI and maybe some other odd-ball brands that no longer exist, but for which there is still some interest? Just my thoughts, Dave F ************ ** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living. aol.com/video/ how-to-please- your-picky- eater/rachel- campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID= aolcmp0030000000 2598) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5394	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

Isn't is also possible to use some styrene tubing to shim a #4 center post to fit a #5? I have some Varney plastic freight cars whose center posts for some reason were too big for #4s and too small for #5s. A piece of Evergreen Styrene 1/8" tubing took care of that. But, I like the slack in the #4s a lot, so don't use too many #5s on my old cars. Plus I do not like the plastic coupler boxes on my old cars. For me it's got to be metal! -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor? Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Woodard > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale > > > Hi Dave, > > Well, you know me well enough to know that I'm into vintage AHM, but I also like old Bowser/Penn Line and stuff of that nature, I do have an old Varney metal side coach, I restored it about 2 years ago, when I first got it, the guys over at the local train shop were aghast! The car had seen better days, but its in pristine condition now, I do have an old Bowser/Penn Line H9 consolidation, its still mostly in kit form, the guy who started it couldn't figure out where the bind in the mechanism is, that one is definitely a subject for Resurrecting The Dinosaurs.. > > There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) > > Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5395	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

I think Don has come up with a good precis about all this.   Sude issue:   Folks, please use a new subject when you change topics!   Fred Hultberg(resident ethcing wizard, Fotocut)<--BTW, etching is a WWII vintage process! Does that make me a "vintage manufacturer?" Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: My original conception was equipment from the early 1960's and before.  That is not a "hard & fast" rule,  I myself have talked about Quality Craft models from the mid 70's, just because they're a type of construction you no longer see, and my Aerotrain is a Bowser reissue.  I am far from a purist, I love the Varney F-3 shells, but mine mostly ride on Athearn chassis.  I am building passeger cars from Varney cardstock sides, with Northeastern wood roof and floor, but plastic ends and cast steps from Bethlehem car works.  Is that vintage?, maybe not, but it still evokes the feel of what model railroading USED to be, when a modeller was rated by his creativity and talent, unlike today when the measure of a modeller is the size of the credit limit on his Visa card.   I think it's more of a "feel" for what constitutes models from the "golden age" of model railroading (my own subjective description).  Silver streak cars are vintage, even though they're still made today (as in fact Kurtz Kraft cars were most recently offered by Cannonball Car shops to use your own example).  For example, I'd say an Athearn plastic boxcar with no claws on the doors, screw covers on the coupler pockets, and spring trucks is "vintage".  The same car with claws, metal coupler covers and all delrin trucks is not.  Aristo craft is vintage, AHM is not (although some early pieces may be considered such, like the "minicars" line of Angoplas automobiles), IHC would be DEFINITELY off topic.    The recent discussion on Train Miniature was borderline, but, with the current changes in the hobby to ready to run garbage from China, they do evoke nostalgia.  It's like the '72 Chevy Impala convertible I bought new to impress a girl (who's still married to me) is now considered a "classic".  I thought it was a piece of junk and was glad to sell it off a few years later.   If you want to talk about Bachmann and P2000 and DCC, there's lots of other lists.  If you're going to be a puckerbutt about how it's only collectable if it's blueprint stock and locked in a glass case, you probably won't be happy here.  If you just want to have fun with the trains we grew up with, jump in, the water's fine.   I don't know if this answers your question or not, and anyone else who has thoughts on this, feel free to chime in.   Don Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5396	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

Hi Don: Sounds reasonable to me............ Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5397	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

Hi Guys (and Gals),  I can live with Don's definition of Vintage.  I kind of like some of the 70s and some early 80s pieces but I would classify them as classic rather than vintage. Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote: My original conception was equipment from the early 1960's and before.  That is not a "hard & fast" rule,  I myself have talked about Quality Craft models from the mid 70's, just because they're a type of construction you no longer see, and my Aerotrain is a Bowser reissue.  I am far from a purist, I love the Varney F-3 shells, but mine mostly ride on Athearn chassis.  I am building passeger cars from Varney cardstock sides, with Northeastern wood roof and floor, but plastic ends and cast steps from Bethlehem car works.  Is that vintage?, maybe not, but it still evokes the feel of what model railroading USED to be, when a modeller was rated by his creativity and talent, unlike today when the measure of a modeller is the size of the credit limit on his Visa card.   I think it's more of a "feel" for what constitutes models from the "golden age" of model railroading (my own subjective description) .  Silver streak cars are vintage, even though they're still made today (as in fact Kurtz Kraft cars were most recently offered by Cannonball Car shops to use your own example).  For example, I'd say an Athearn plastic boxcar with no claws on the doors, screw covers on the coupler pockets, and spring trucks is "vintage".  The same car with claws, metal coupler covers and all delrin trucks is not.  Aristo craft is vintage, AHM is not (although some early pieces may be considered such, like the "minicars" line of Angoplas automobiles) , IHC would be DEFINITELY off topic.    The recent discussion on Train Miniature was borderline, but, with the current changes in the hobby to ready to run garbage from China, they do evoke nostalgia.  It's like the '72 Chevy Impala convertible I bought new to impress a girl (who's still married to me) is now considered a "classic".  I thought it was a piece of junk and was glad to sell it off a few years later.   If you want to talk about Bachmann and P2000 and DCC, there's lots of other lists.  If you're going to be a puckerbutt about how it's only collectable if it's blueprint stock and locked in a glass case, you probably won't be happy here.  If you just want to have fun with the trains we grew up with, jump in, the water's fine.   I don't know if this answers your question or not, and anyone else who has thoughts on this, feel free to chime in.   Don Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5398	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote: > > I think Don has come up with a good precis about all this. > > Sude issue: > > Folks, please use a new subject when you change topics! > > Fred Hultberg(resident ethcing wizard, Fotocut)<--BTW, etching is a WWII vintage process! Does that make me a "vintage manufacturer?" > I agree with fred on the new topic when you syart a new topic. I also agree very much with Don on the reason for the group and what it entails. I believe he has the absolute right idea about the way to enjoy the "Golden Era" of HO in such a way that makes the stuff enjoyable to operate. OT for Fred's eyes only; How is the D. Miller project going? That is my artwork. It's interesting how people we deal with in our hobbies often have similiar interests. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5399	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: OT for Fred's eyes only

Hi John!   D, Miller's stuff is coming slowly - I have managed to catch some kind o f"bug"(not a VW) that is more than a cold but not actually flu. No fever or headaches, but incapacitating. Very frustrating! By the time I bring in coal(vintage heating method) and a few drops of kerosene for the BR heater, I feel like I have done a whole day's work.   About the actual art/pieces: the connecting tabs are very delicate, will require some extra attantion but may come out OK. Will also require special care at Dean's end. My opinion: not needed anyway. I hope to get the imaging done this week, the ethcing done about a week after that. Not a promise...   Sorry for delay.   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) I think I am vintage, too... John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg wrote: > > I think Don has come up with a good precis about all this. > > Side issue: > > Folks, please use a new subject when you change topics! > > Fred Hultberg(resident ethcing wizard, Fotocut)<--BTW, etching is a WWII vintage process! Does that make me a "vintage manufacturer?" > I agree with fred on the new topic when you syart a new topic. I also agree very much with Don on the reason for the group and what it entails. I believe he has the absolute right idea about the way to enjoy the "Golden Era" of HO in such a way that makes the stuff enjoyable to operate. OT for Fred's eyes only; How is the D. Miller project going? That is my artwork. It's interesting how people we deal with in our hobbies often have similiar interests. John Hagen Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5400	From: John Barlow	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits...the EBT Caboose...

Group,   What happened to the East Broad Top caboose in HOn3 that used to be part of the kit line? Anybody know of one for sale?   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) Glen Thomas <gthomas2@...> wrote: I've uploaded a letter sent to me from Rick Steele of La Belle Woodworking, Wyoming, "The La belle History Told by the Current Owner, Rick Steele". We've been discussing the past owners and the time frame on this post. So, I email Mr. Steele and asked him to fill us in on any information he would have regarding this matter. As a true, down to earth hobbyist, he reply the very next day and I placed his letter in the "File" catagory. What I liked about the letter, he went into details as to how he acquired La Belle Woodworking and how he intends to keep it alive in todays market place. Good for him. Glen Thomas Waukesha, WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "lawrencehokanson" <dale.hokanson@ ...> wrote: > > Can anyone tell me what date LaBelle moved from Oconomowoc, WI? Their > site says they started in 1947, but moved from Oconomowoc to Watertown > sometime after that. After several stops they are now in their present > location in Cheyenne, WY. I was surprised to find them on the net and > see they are still in business. I have four kits (HO-1,2,5,11) which > they still make, but these were made in Oconomowoc and I need to find > an approximate date for them. > > Thanks > > Dale in Spokane > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5401	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

Ray Marinaccio wrote: > Hi Guys (and Gals), > I can live with Don's definition of Vintage. > I kind of like some of the 70s and some early 80s pieces but I would > classify them as classic rather than vintage. I'd personally classify nearly any wood or metal craftsman kit as vintage, even if it was manufactured last week. As Don pointed out, it's the type of construction that would seem to define it. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5402	From: oahurailway	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> wrote: > > > > I've uploaded a letter sent to me from Rick Steele of La Belle > Woodworking, Wyoming, "The La belle History Told by the Current Owner, > Rick Steele". > We've been discussing the past owners and the time frame" I couldn't open your letter from Rick Steele of LaBelle Woodworking, but guess you didn't read my post(#5352) of February 16. Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5403	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Penn Line Crusader Available

All, I know of a Penn Line Crusader that is available for $$$. More than I want to pay, but maybe some one here want one real bad. If so, contact me off list please. garrettspear at gmail dot com is a good address to use. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5404	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

I would like to thank Rick Steele for his history of LaBelle. I was hoping I was correct about Fred being one of the founders. He certainly seemed to have long model railroading roots from what he was telling me. He and his wife were quite wonderful people I've wished I could have known longer. I'm not sure what his general model interests were. I was rather awed to speak a few times with a long-time TMER&L buff and researcher.. Heck, I treasure the couple of extra lengths of 'real' HO TMER&L roof stock I got from Fred. One day this year I'll go through the process of safely converting his completed models to 3d computer files and, in theory, not long after make duplicates for my personal fleet. His take on the unique clerestory roof vents of the TM heavies are quite likely very authentic and accurate. Besides, they just look very good....... I don't think he'd mind if I put rivet detailing on the Next Generation Neinow Trolleys. IF ANYONE WANTS A COPY OF THE CONSTRUCTION TEMPLATES FOR THE TROLLEYS......... I have at least some of those and can provide copies........ Be warned......... I -think- I know just where that folder is, and will have to make certain it is there waiting for me............. It should be right at my old computer desk in a large, marked envelope........... [The ends were castings while the sides were layered tin-stock.] It's something I mean to scan very soon anyway......... Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Feb 18, 2008, at 10:41 PM, oahurailway wrote: > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> wrote: >> >> >> >> I've uploaded a letter sent to me from Rick Steele of La Belle >> Woodworking, Wyoming, "The La belle History Told by the Current > Owner, >> Rick Steele". >> We've been discussing the past owners and the time frame" > > > I couldn't open your letter from Rick Steele of LaBelle Woodworking, > but guess you didn't read my post(#5352) of February 16. Ken > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5405	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits...the EBT Caboose...

Not for sale......... But I think I know where I have a partly built kit sitting. Would a copy of the instructions and plan be helpful ???  Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Feb 18, 2008, at 9:37 PM, John Barlow wrote: Group,   What happened to the East Broad Top caboose in HOn3 that used to be part of the kit line? Anybody know of one for sale?   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) Glen Thomas <gthomas2@...> wrote: I've uploaded a letter sent to me from Rick Steele of La Belle Woodworking, Wyoming, "The La belle History Told by the Current Owner, Rick Steele".

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5406	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

I'm recently back from the Madison train show where I adopted a vintage European 3-unit, double ended, articulated diesel railcar......... where the units are sharing trucks between them. It caught my eye as being quite similar to the ACF RailMotors. I haven't yet freed it from the shrink-wrap........ I'm hoping there will some makers logo on the underside. You folks feel like looking at this critter and seeing if anyone can id when it was in production?? It appears to be 50 years old or so. It seems to be DC-2-rail....... at least two-rail. I'm hoping its common enough for me to be guilt- free in updating the drive and giving her working DCC sound and lighting effects. Oh yeah..... I also got a nice HobbyTown E-7a........ now I'm going to have to go and assemble a multi-drive E-7b and E-6a I've been sitting on....... I want to eventually see how much train a fully powered HobbyTown E6/7-A-B-A will handle at a local huge club layout................. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5407	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Articulated almost-ACF streamliner

[DANG...... I MEANT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT ON THIS........... AND NOW I HAVE!!!] I'm recently back from the Madison train show where I adopted a vintage European 3-unit, double ended, articulated diesel railcar......... where the units are sharing trucks between them. It caught my eye as being quite similar to the ACF RailMotors. I haven't yet freed it from the shrink-wrap........ I'm hoping there will some makers logo on the underside. You folks feel like looking at this critter and seeing if anyone can id when it was in production?? It appears to be 50 years old or so. It seems to be DC-2-rail....... at least two-rail. I'm hoping its common enough for me to be guilt- free in updating the drive and giving her working DCC sound and lighting effects. Oh yeah..... I also got a nice HobbyTown E-7a........ now I'm going to have to go and assemble a multi-drive E-7b and E-6a I've been sitting on....... I want to eventually see how much train a fully powered HobbyTown E6/7-A-B-A will handle at a local huge club layout................. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5408	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 7:18 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: LaBelle wood kits > > > I've uploaded a letter sent to me from Rick Steele of La Belle > Woodworking, Wyoming, "The La belle History Told by the Current Owner, > Rick Steele". > We've been discussing the past owners and the time frame on this > post. So, I email Mr. Steele and asked him to fill us in on any > information he would have regarding this matter. > As a true, down to earth hobbyist, he reply the very next day and > I placed his letter in the "File" catagory. What I liked about the > letter, he went into details as to how he acquired La Belle Woodworking > and how he intends to keep it alive in todays market place. Good for > him. > > Glen Thomas > > Waukesha, WI Thank you, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, answered a few questions I wasn't sure of either. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5409	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/18/2008
Subject: Re: Articulated almost-ACF streamliner

Mike Bauers wrote: > [DANG...... I MEANT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT ON THIS........... AND NOW I > HAVE!!!] > > I'm recently back from the Madison train show where I adopted a > vintage European 3-unit, double ended, articulated diesel > railcar......... where the units are sharing trucks between them. > > It caught my eye as being quite similar to the ACF RailMotors. > > I haven't yet freed it from the shrink-wrap........ I'm hoping there > will some makers logo on the underside. > > You folks feel like looking at this critter and seeing if anyone can > id when it was in production?? > > It appears to be 50 years old or so. It seems to be DC-2-rail....... > at least two-rail. I'm hoping its common enough for me to be guilt- > free in updating the drive and giving her working DCC sound and > lighting effects. > > Mike, send us a picture - if its European I might be able to identify it. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5410	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

Hi Glenn, Thanks for the heads up, I will look into that, as I need to re supply my coupler stock anyway, I'm sure that my local shop probably has #4's in stock, he's got everything else, now all I need is a door for the car, as it is missing one....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:24:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5411	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 11:43 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage Defined > I'm recently back from the Madison train show where I adopted a > vintage European 3-unit, double ended, articulated diesel > railcar......... where the units are sharing trucks between them. > > It caught my eye as being quite similar to the ACF RailMotors. > > I haven't yet freed it from the shrink-wrap........ I'm hoping there > will some makers logo on the underside. > > You folks feel like looking at this critter and seeing if anyone can > id when it was in production?? > > It appears to be 50 years old or so. It seems to be DC-2-rail....... > at least two-rail. I'm hoping its common enough for me to be guilt- > free in updating the drive and giving her working DCC sound and > lighting effects. > > Oh yeah..... I also got a nice HobbyTown E-7a........ now I'm going to > have to go and assemble a multi-drive E-7b and E-6a I've been sitting > on....... I want to eventually see how much train a fully powered > HobbyTown E6/7-A-B-A will handle at a local huge club > layout................. > > Best to Ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi Please post a picture. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5412	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

I like Don's definition. It makes it easy. If it was advertised in a 1960 or earlier issue of Model Railroader or RMC, it qualifies. I realize it doesn't answer all the questions, but it does give us a cut-off date. Matt > > Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > My original conception was equipment from the early 1960's and before. That is not a "hard & fast" rule, I myself have talked about Quality Craft models from the mid 70's, just because they're a type of construction you no longer see, and my Aerotrain is a Bowser reissue. I am far from a purist, I love the Varney F-3 shells, but mine mostly ride on Athearn chassis. I am building passeger cars from Varney cardstock sides, with Northeastern wood roof and floor, but plastic ends and cast steps from Bethlehem car works. Is that vintage?, maybe not, but it still evokes the feel of what model railroading USED to be, when a modeller was rated by his creativity and talent, unlike today when the measure of a modeller is the size of the credit limit on his Visa card. > > I think it's more of a "feel" for what constitutes models from the "golden age" of model railroading (my own subjective description). Silver streak cars are vintage, even though they're still made today (as in fact Kurtz Kraft cars were most recently offered by Cannonball Car shops to use your own example). For example, I'd say an Athearn plastic boxcar with no claws on the doors, screw covers on the coupler pockets, and spring trucks is "vintage". The same car with claws, metal coupler covers and all delrin trucks is not. Aristo craft is vintage, AHM is not (although some early pieces may be considered such, like the "minicars" line of Angoplas automobiles), IHC would be DEFINITELY off topic. > > The recent discussion on Train Miniature was borderline, but, with the current changes in the hobby to ready to run garbage from China, they do evoke nostalgia. It's like the '72 Chevy Impala convertible I bought new to impress a girl (who's still married to me) is now considered a "classic". I thought it was a piece of junk and was glad to sell it off a few years later. > > If you want to talk about Bachmann and P2000 and DCC, there's lots of other lists. If you're going to be a puckerbutt about how it's only collectable if it's blueprint stock and locked in a glass case, you probably won't be happy here. If you just want to have fun with the trains we grew up with, jump in, the water's fine. > > I don't know if this answers your question or not, and anyone else who has thoughts on this, feel free to chime in. > > Don > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5413	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: LaBelle wood kits...the EBT Caboose...

I have a LaBelle EBT caboose kit HON3-32 (Oconomowoc) with the body very nearly, and quite neatly completed by a very skilled modeler/friend no longer in the hobby. All parts (including dry decals) seem to be present, - but no instructions :-( . I am not in HOn3, and would be willing to part. If interested, please contact me only off-list. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5414	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

Hi, Can you post a photo of the door, MDC made several different types of doors for their die-cast kits.  Someone may actually have one if they know what it is supposed to look like. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: betsy662@... Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:19:49 -0800 Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, Thanks for the heads up, I will look into that, as I need to re supply my coupler stock anyway, I'm sure that my local shop probably has #4's in stock, he's got everything else, now all I need is a door for the car, as it is missing one....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:24:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5415	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.    Dr. Bob Chait, MMR did a clinic  for the NMRA on using dental materials for making parts.  ----- Original Message -----    gj From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:19 AM Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, Thanks for the heads up, I will look into that, as I need to re supply my coupler stock anyway, I'm sure that my local shop probably has #4's in stock, he's got everything else, now all I need is a door for the car, as it is missing one....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:24:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5416	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /Maryann's Files/HO Scale Turnout Templates.doc Uploaded by : arti_obuch <maobuch@...> Description : HO Scale Turnout Templates You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Maryann%27s%20Files/HO%20Scale%20Turnout%20Templates.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, arti_obuch <maobuch@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5417	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:14:47 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.    Dr. Bob Chait, MMR did a clinic  for the NMRA on using dental materials for making parts.  ----- Original Message -----    gj From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:19 AM Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, Thanks for the heads up, I will look into that, as I need to re supply my coupler stock anyway, I'm sure that my local shop probably has #4's in stock, he's got everything else, now all I need is a door for the car, as it is missing one....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:24:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5418	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

Hi Vic, Will do, got to take the pic first though!!!:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:09:05 PM Subject: RE: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi, Can you post a photo of the door, MDC made several different types of doors for their die-cast kits.  Someone may actually have one if they know what it is supposed to look like. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: betsy662@yahoo. com Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:19:49 -0800 Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, Thanks for the heads up, I will look into that, as I need to re supply my coupler stock anyway, I'm sure that my local shop probably has #4's in stock, he's got everything else, now all I need is a door for the car, as it is missing one....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:24:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5419	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /DSC01835.jpg Uploaded by : betsy662 <betsy662@...> Description : Heres the example of the door thats missing on the other side of the car You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/DSC01835.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, betsy662 <betsy662@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5420	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Picture of Boxcar

Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5421	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

You might try some kids' modeling clay--spray the remaining door with silicone spray--take a gob of clay and mash it down over the face of the door--turn it over and fill with something like JB Weld.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:14:47 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.    Dr. Bob Chait, MMR did a clinic  for the NMRA on using dental materials for making parts.  ----- Original Message -----    gj From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:19 AM Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, Thanks for the heads up, I will look into that, as I need to re supply my coupler stock anyway, I'm sure that my local shop probably has #4's in stock, he's got everything else, now all I need is a door for the car, as it is missing one....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:24:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5422	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5423	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Old Trix (HO)

List: Vintage Stuff again: Anyone remember Trix in the (old) days before Marklin aquired them? Trix came in 2 HO flavors: Trix Express (DC, 2 rail) Trix International (AC, 3 rail) Trix International AC 3 rail was not compatible with Marklin AC 3 rail. Trix International track was tubular in shape, sort of like scaled down O gauge or Lionel O-27 track in shrunken form. Very thick compared to more correctly profiled Marklin track of the time. I have been digging thru some of my "for sale" stuff, and found a Trix Express "VT-08", if anyone is interested (US only). The VT-08 is a German prototype, 2 unit, streamlined passenger train. The 2 units look exactly alike, but only one is powered, the other unpowered. Color is in 1950s dark red and dark gray top (standard DB colors of the era for "modern" trains, post war). This set has minor damage to the rear of one unit, which is probably repairable. Trucks and wheels are dark gray, and the truck assembly has a streamlined shround covering them. I can send photos to serious inquirers and collectors. This set was only produced by Trix (Express) from 1958 to 1960. Not a lot were made. A center car(s) were also available, but I never got them. This train is a self-contained, bi-directional set probably intended for commuter service between end points in real life. I once saw the real thing in Heidelberg (Germany). I got the model from the US Army Model Railroad Club in Frankfurt, Germany (Gibbs Barracks) in 1960 when the Army still offered such things as part of their troop moral and welfare operations. The club was operated by V Corps (now in Iraq). The Frankfurt model railroad club was huge, and covered the entire upstairs floor above the movie theater. It included both GIs and Germans in the club, ran US and European trains, and was well cared for and attended at nearly all hours of the day and night and weekends by Generals and Privates alike (Yeah, a lot of Army Generals like model trains.....both from a modeling standpoint, and for planning tactical situations in Eastern Europe, which was the "Plan of the Day" back then. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5424	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Found the photo.  Unfortunately it has the "wrong" type of door--I have a bunch of copy castings in that pink acrylic, but it is the other style door (corrugated).  So I won't continue looking for them--but I might find a box or two of misc. MDC parts.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5425	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

Yell at me later........... I think I have the same car........... and I have all the casting needs on hand....... I'll make  a clay mold. And then you'll have to nag me a little to somewhat more........ But I can make it. Don.......... I've got the mold out........ I'll make the 6 ends you need in the next couple of days Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Feb 19, 2008, at 4:20 PM, Glenn476 wrote: You might try some kids' modeling clay--spray the remaining door with silicone spray--take a gob of clay and mash it down over the face of the door--turn it over and fill with something like JB Weld.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476  Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.    Dr. Bob Chait, MMR did a clinic  for the NMRA on using dental materials for making parts.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5426	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cF-7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJHONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5427	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

Hi Glenn, I have some Kleen Klay, which is used in casting primarily for aiding in mold making, it too can be used as a mold for one shots, but I don't know if I can cast metal in it real easy, most polyurathanes have the consistency of water when you mix them, whereas metal, even molten metal doesn't, and I was figuring on casting it in metal, I have some old scrap metal used primarily for making printing plates, this stuff is almost as nice to work with as some of the more expensive alloys.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:20:20 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale You might try some kids' modeling clay--spray the remaining door with silicone spray--take a gob of clay and mash it down over the face of the door--turn it over and fill with something like JB Weld.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again....... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:14:47 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.    Dr. Bob Chait, MMR did a clinic  for the NMRA on using dental materials for making parts.  ----- Original Message -----    gj From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:19 AM Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, Thanks for the heads up, I will look into that, as I need to re supply my coupler stock anyway, I'm sure that my local shop probably has #4's in stock, he's got everything else, now all I need is a door for the car, as it is missing one....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:24:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5428	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

May I suggest plaster for the mold? As I recall...... let it dry in the open for a few days, then bake it in a toaster oven for an hour or so set on low to completely dry it out. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Feb 19, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Gary Woodard wrote: Hi Glenn, I have some Kleen Klay, which is used in casting primarily for aiding in mold making, it too can be used as a mold for one shots, but I don't know if I can cast metal in it real easy, most polyurathanes have the consistency of water when you mix them, whereas metal, even molten metal doesn't, and I was figuring on casting it in metal, I have some old scrap metal used primarily for making printing plates, this stuff is almost as nice to work with as some of the more expensive alloys.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476  You might try some kids' modeling clay--spray the remaining door with silicone spray--take a gob of clay and mash it down over the face of the door--turn it over and fill with something like JB Weld.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again....... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5429	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trix (HO)

If I may be so bold as to make a bit of a correction.  I have a Trix 1976 catalog downstairs, (I was modelling  Continental prototype for a time in the mid 70's)  Trix Express was the 3 rail AC, Trix International was the 2 rail DC.  This was also the time they were introducing the "ems" system to run two trains on one track (Walthers sold it for a time here in the US) so a few locomotives were actually available in FOUR different version, AC or DC and with or without ems.   Marklin also offered 2 rail DC under the HAMO name, and Flieschman and Roco offered several of THEIR locomotives in a Marklin compatable version.  It was difinitely an interesting time (and since I was running 2 rail DC, I discovered Kadee wheelsets were a "drop in" replacement for most Marklin freight cars)   Dondon.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:56 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Old Trix (HO) List: Vintage Stuff again: Anyone remember Trix in the (old) days before Marklin aquired them? Trix came in 2 HO flavors: Trix Express (DC, 2 rail) Trix International (AC, 3 rail) Trix International AC 3 rail was not compatible with Marklin AC 3 rail. Trix International track was tubular in shape, sort of like scaled down O gauge or Lionel O-27 track in shrunken form. Very thick compared to more correctly profiled Marklin track of the time. I have been digging thru some of my "for sale" stuff, and found a Trix Express "VT-08", if anyone is interested (US only). The VT-08 is a German prototype, 2 unit, streamlined passenger train. The 2 units look exactly alike, but only one is powered, the other unpowered. Color is in 1950s dark red and dark gray top (standard DB colors of the era for "modern" trains, post war). This set has minor damage to the rear of one unit, which is probably repairable. Trucks and wheels are dark gray, and the truck assembly has a streamlined shround covering them. I can send photos to serious inquirers and collectors. This set was only produced by Trix (Express) from 1958 to 1960. Not a lot were made. A center car(s) were also available, but I never got them. This train is a self-contained, bi-directional set probably intended for commuter service between end points in real life. I once saw the real thing in Heidelberg (Germany). I got the model from the US Army Model Railroad Club in Frankfurt, Germany (Gibbs Barracks) in 1960 when the Army still offered such things as part of their troop moral and welfare operations. The club was operated by V Corps (now in Iraq). The Frankfurt model railroad club was huge, and covered the entire upstairs floor above the movie theater. It included both GIs and Germans in the club, ran US and European trains, and was well cared for and attended at nearly all hours of the day and night and weekends by Generals and Privates alike (Yeah, a lot of Army Generals like model trains.....both from a modeling standpoint, and for planning tactical situations in Eastern Europe, which was the "Plan of the Day" back then. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5430	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

It wouldn't be original, but if you took one of the crrent plastic flat plate doors, cut off the "claws" and did some judicious filing so it fits the guides, it would match.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cF-7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJHONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5431	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

Don, I'm glad to see that you have no qualms in modifying vintage equipment to make them run like new. It makes me feel a little better about the job I did on my Mantua 8-Ball Mogul from the 40's. A photo of my 2-6-0 is in my Cinder Valley album. It is equipped with RP-25 nickle silver drivers, idler gearbox and a Sagami can motor. Several Cal Scale castings were added and a PFM brass tender. It is also equipped with a Soundtraxx Tsunami decoder and it runs beautifully, as good as any loco manufactured today. I always felt a little guilty for changing it, but I wanted it to be usable on my railroad. Bill DeFoe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5432	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

for a single copy, I'd go with the JB Weld or a similar filled epoxy.  Hard to tell the difference when painted.  Or use a low-melting point metal.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:02 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, I have some Kleen Klay, which is used in casting primarily for aiding in mold making, it too can be used as a mold for one shots, but I don't know if I can cast metal in it real easy, most polyurathanes have the consistency of water when you mix them, whereas metal, even molten metal doesn't, and I was figuring on casting it in metal, I have some old scrap metal used primarily for making printing plates, this stuff is almost as nice to work with as some of the more expensive alloys.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:20:20 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale You might try some kids' modeling clay--spray the remaining door with silicone spray--take a gob of clay and mash it down over the face of the door--turn it over and fill with something like JB Weld.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again....... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:14:47 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.    Dr. Bob Chait, MMR did a clinic  for the NMRA on using dental materials for making parts.  ----- Original Message -----    gj From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:19 AM Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, Thanks for the heads up, I will look into that, as I need to re supply my coupler stock anyway, I'm sure that my local shop probably has #4's in stock, he's got everything else, now all I need is a door for the car, as it is missing one....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:24:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5433	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trix (HO)

Hi Don: Someone has it backwards. I am looking at the Trix Express box that the VT-08 is packed in. It says "Trix Express (Gleischtrom)" which I think is German for "DC". ("Wechselstrom" is AC.). In German, they use symbols to denote AC and DC as well. AC is shown as "~", while DC is shown as "=". The box has the "=" symbol on it next to the word. These are old models, so perhaps Trix changed things around in the 70s -- I don't know, as I never bought any of their products new. Yes, I am aware of the older Marklin "Hamo" locos, and had several. Ditto Marklin "Primex". Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5434	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Gary, Is this the original paint scheme?  We do not have this car listed in the file.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Gary Woodard Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar   Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF-7R_ Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6wJQdT- fkxtSmdfLLTe51IL V2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar   Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W   Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.     Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5435	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

I made a mold like this once using plaster.  I let it dry for about a week or so, then melted up a few tire balancing weights and poured a new wall for a Woodland scenics Rocky's.  I bought 2 kits, but one had a missing wall.  The new one made from the lead came out perfect and you couldn't tell once it was primed.  You can probably do that for the door.  All you need to do to get the tire weights is go to a tire store parking lot and nose the pavement a bit.  You will help the environment as well as yourself.  It is pretty easy to melt lead and pour.  I just used a propane torch and formed a very crude ladle out of a tin can.  The door should be easy because one side is perfectly flat. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:14:22 -0600 Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale May I suggest plaster for the mold? As I recall...... let it dry in the open for a few days, then bake it in a toaster oven for an hour or so set on low to completely dry it out. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Feb 19, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Gary Woodard wrote: Hi Glenn, I have some Kleen Klay, which is used in casting primarily for aiding in mold making, it too can be used as a mold for one shots, but I don't know if I can cast metal in it real easy, most polyurathanes have the consistency of water when you mix them, whereas metal, even molten metal doesn't, and I was figuring on casting it in metal, I have some old scrap metal used primarily for making printing plates, this stuff is almost as nice to work with as some of the more expensive alloys...... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476  You might try some kids' modeling clay--spray the remaining door with silicone spray--take a gob of clay and mash it down over the face of the door--turn it over and fill with something like JB Weld.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again....... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.  Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5436	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Hi Gary, Yep, I am really familiar with that door.  I need one also, I have a B&M 40 ft boxcar that lacks one of those.  However, I wasn't too worried because I had a spare corrugated door that was leftover from another Roundhouse kit.  It had 3 doors in the box.  I really don't like the idea of having 2 different doors, even though I know the prototypes had em.  I kind of put that project off for a while, because the original letter was peeling off and I could never match the paint.  Now, it will become whatever box car I want it to be, when I get around to it.  Hmmm, now that I know someone else needs the door, I may just make a plaster casting and pour a couple from lead.  Just don't rush me as I won't be able to do the pours for a few weeks.  But if nothing else comes through by the time I do this, I will let you know. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: betsy662@... Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:53:52 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". Check it out.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5437	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trix (HO)

My information comes from the catalog.  I could copy a page for you tomorrow at work if you like.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Trix (HO) Hi Don: Someone has it backwards. I am looking at the Trix Express box that the VT-08 is packed in. It says "Trix Express (Gleischtrom)" which I think is German for "DC". ("Wechselstrom" is AC.). In German, they use symbols to denote AC and DC as well. AC is shown as "~", while DC is shown as "=". The box has the "=" symbol on it next to the word. These are old models, so perhaps Trix changed things around in the 70s -- I don't know, as I never bought any of their products new. Yes, I am aware of the older Marklin "Hamo" locos, and had several. Ditto Marklin "Primex". Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5438	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/19/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

now--can you see both doors on the car at the same time? ----- Original Message ----- From: Victor Bitleris To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:15 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Gary, Yep, I am really familiar with that door.  I need one also, I have a B&M 40 ft boxcar that lacks one of those.  However, I wasn't too worried because I had a spare corrugated door that was leftover from another Roundhouse kit.  It had 3 doors in the box.  I really don't like the idea of having 2 different doors, even though I know the prototypes had em.  I kind of put that project off for a while, because the original letter was peeling off and I could never match the paint.  Now, it will become whatever box car I want it to be, when I get around to it.  Hmmm, now that I know someone else needs the door, I may just make a plaster casting and pour a couple from lead.  Just don't rush me as I won't be able to do the pours for a few weeks.  But if nothing else comes through by the time I do this, I will let you know. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: betsy662@... Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:53:52 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". Check it out.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5439	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

Hi Glenn, I do have some low melting point metal on hand, I never realized you could use JB Weld for making things, I've always looked at it as an adhesive.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:58:07 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale for a single copy, I'd go with the JB Weld or a similar filled epoxy.  Hard to tell the difference when painted.  Or use a low-melting point metal.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:02 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, I have some Kleen Klay, which is used in casting primarily for aiding in mold making, it too can be used as a mold for one shots, but I don't know if I can cast metal in it real easy, most polyurathanes have the consistency of water when you mix them, whereas metal, even molten metal doesn't, and I was figuring on casting it in metal, I have some old scrap metal used primarily for making printing plates, this stuff is almost as nice to work with as some of the more expensive alloys...... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:20:20 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale You might try some kids' modeling clay--spray the remaining door with silicone spray--take a gob of clay and mash it down over the face of the door--turn it over and fill with something like JB Weld.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again....... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:14:47 PM Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.    Dr. Bob Chait, MMR did a clinic  for the NMRA on using dental materials for making parts.  ----- Original Message -----    gj From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:19 AM Subject: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Glenn, Thanks for the heads up, I will look into that, as I need to re supply my coupler stock anyway, I'm sure that my local shop probably has #4's in stock, he's got everything else, now all I need is a door for the car, as it is missing one....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 8:24:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Kadee 4's were made for it--does it have draft gear pockets cast in the floor?  Someone mentioned using the #5 lid as a cover if the pockets are cast on. Early MDC's had a pair of pin-sized holes in the floor and used a small block of wood inside to anchor the Kadee pr MDC pocket.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale There is a lot of 70's era stuff, which dates back to the 50's, but was still available in the 70's, and often is still available via ebay and train shows, I often get pretty good deals on some of that stuff, I have an old outside braced boxcar which is diecast, put together with screws, needs restoration, and a way to mount Kadee No.5 couplers, this car is also a candidate for Resurrection, I am in need of one of the doors for this car, if anyone has one, its an old MDC kit built car......:o) Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5440	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

Hi Bill, Don't feel too guilty, that boxcar I uploaded a picture of in the files has brand spanking new Athearn metal wheel Bettendorf trucks under it, it will have brand new Kadee couplers installed as well, I also have a vintage Mantua Mikado with a Cannon can motor, NWSL gears, and is also ready to be DCC if I ever switch over, it also runs like a Swiss watch, much better than having the jack rabbit slow speed of the original.............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:36:39 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage Defined Don, I'm glad to see that you have no qualms in modifying vintage equipment to make them run like new. It makes me feel a little better about the job I did on my Mantua 8-Ball Mogul from the 40's. A photo of my 2-6-0 is in my Cinder Valley album. It is equipped with RP-25 nickle silver drivers, idler gearbox and a Sagami can motor. Several Cal Scale castings were added and a PFM brass tender. It is also equipped with a Soundtraxx Tsunami decoder and it runs beautifully, as good as any loco manufactured today. I always felt a little guilty for changing it, but I wanted it to be usable on my railroad. Bill DeFoe Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5441	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Hi Don, Where would I find those doors, I haven't seen anything but Youngstown doors on most boxcars for year????:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:33:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar It wouldn't be original, but if you took one of the crrent plastic flat plate doors, cut off the "claws" and did some judicious filing so it fits the guides, it would match.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF-7R_ Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6wJQdT- fkxtSmdfLLTe51IL V2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5442	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

Hi Vic, I already have a  casting ladle, got it from Micro Mark a few years ago, I could get some old No1 casting plaster, we don't have hydrocal locally, so old No1 would have to do...........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:07:38 PM Subject: RE: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale I made a mold like this once using plaster.  I let it dry for about a week or so, then melted up a few tire balancing weights and poured a new wall for a Woodland scenics Rocky's.  I bought 2 kits, but one had a missing wall.  The new one made from the lead came out perfect and you couldn't tell once it was primed.  You can probably do that for the door.  All you need to do to get the tire weights is go to a tire store parking lot and nose the pavement a bit.  You will help the environment as well as yourself.  It is pretty easy to melt lead and pour.  I just used a propane torch and formed a very crude ladle out of a tin can.  The door should be easy because one side is perfectly flat. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: mwbauers55@wi. rr.com Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:14:22 -0600 Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale May I suggest plaster for the mold? As I recall...... let it dry in the open for a few days, then bake it in a toaster oven for an hour or so set on low to completely dry it out. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Feb 19, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Gary Woodard wrote: Hi Glenn, I have some Kleen Klay, which is used in casting primarily for aiding in mold making, it too can be used as a mold for one shots, but I don't know if I can cast metal in it real easy, most polyurathanes have the consistency of water when you mix them, whereas metal, even molten metal doesn't, and I was figuring on casting it in metal, I have some old scrap metal used primarily for making printing plates, this stuff is almost as nice to work with as some of the more expensive alloys...... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476  You might try some kids' modeling clay--spray the remaining door with silicone spray--take a gob of clay and mash it down over the face of the door--turn it over and fill with something like JB Weld.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again....... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.  Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5443	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Hi Chuck, I have no idea, it came in a lot of freight cars I got off of ebay one time, I've been able to use every one of those freight cars too, except I was wanting to restore this one before it goes onto the layout........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:01:13 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Gary, Is this the original paint scheme?  We do not have this car listed in the file.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Gary Woodard Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar   Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF-7R_ Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6wJQdT- fkxtSmdfLLTe51IL V2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar   Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W   Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.     Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5444	From: erieberk	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Chuck, If this O/B CN car is an original MDC (which I tend to doubt), it is uncataloged as it doesn't appear in any of their catalogs. While I've never seen it, perhaps it was offered only in Canada, which would not have been very likely for MDC, although other manufactures have marketed this way with certain roadnames, etc. Glenn, can you tell if this car was factory painted and lettered/"logoed", or does it appear as if it might have been decalled? Can you detect any clear overspray to help hide any decalling? Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Gary, > > Is this the original paint scheme? We do not have this car listed in the > file. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Gary Woodard > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > > > Hi Glenn, > Heres the link to it http://f1.grp > <http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cF- 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJH > ONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg> > yahoofs.com/v1/cF- 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJHONIW7sEDDUBPMv6 > wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg > Gary W > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > I don't find it in either "files" or "photos". gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary Woodard <mailto:betsy662@...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > > > Hi All, > > I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, > showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the > car....:o) > > Gary W > > > > > > > _____ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i 62sR8H > DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> > > > > > > _____ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i 62sR8H > DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> it now. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5445	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

What is the name of the Album, where the photo is saved?  And the name of the picture. Garry Spear On 2/20/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Chuck, If this O/B CN car is an original MDC (which I tend to doubt), it is uncataloged as it doesn't appear in any of their catalogs. While I've never seen it, perhaps it was offered only in Canada, which would not have been very likely for MDC, although other manufactures have marketed this way with certain roadnames, etc. Glenn, can you tell if this car was factory painted and lettered/"logoed", or does it appear as if it might have been decalled? Can you detect any clear overspray to help hide any decalling? Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Gary, > > Is this the original paint scheme? We do not have this car listed in the > file. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Gary Woodard > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > > > Hi Glenn, > Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. > <http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cF- 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJH > ONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg> > yahoofs.com/v1/cF- 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJHONIW7sEDDUBPMv6 > wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg > Gary W > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > I don't find it in either "files" or "photos". gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary Woodard <mailto:betsy662@...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > > > Hi All, > > I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, > showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the > car....:o) > > Gary W > > > > > > > _____ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i 62sR8H > DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> > > > > > > _____ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i 62sR8H > DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> it now. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5446	From: erieberk	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined, was: Triang Passenger cars, OO scale

While I'm here, I thought I'd add my 3 cents worth to the discussions of what constitutes a vintage model. My way of looking at it is that it all goes back to a period of when the differences in technology of materials and construction was drastically changed by the manufacturers which previously used wood, wood & cardstock, wood & metal, wood & plastic and plastic & metal. This may include those manufacturers who originally used metal but have gone to a different metal, such as when Bowser changed from using zamac frames to brass frames and when this same company dropped the acquired (from Knapp) cast brass Mountain to much later producing a cast zamac Mountain. As such, I consider the earlier Bowser vintage, even though that would include into the 1970's. Its my opinion that, just as many earlier manufacturers had different start up dates pre-War, that there should not be one cut-off date used as a blanket for manufactures as to where vintage stops and classic (or whatever!) picks up. This really depends on when each individual changed from their earlier technology to a more modern one and will be staggered during a period of transition. Likewise, I feel that most any plastic produced during this transition time such as Kurtz Kraft, early Train Miniature and early Athearn (plastic) which were either discontinued or changed shortly thereafter should also be included as being vintage, since they came from the transition era. While its generally agreed that Silver Streak should be included as vintage, any discontinued road numbers, road names or types of cars of any manufacturer should especially be considered as vintage, even if their general line of products have continued somewhat. A further cut off time could be (but not necessarily) when one manufacturer sells out to a successor, although I still consider Walther's lines of the original Silver Streak and Ulrich kits, unchanged from the predecessors as vintage as the technology had not changed (any additions they made to these lines as their own products should be considered as classic only although no less collectable). This yardstick can be applied to most any manufacturer which sells out to another, such as Mantua -- Tyco, even if they re-purchase the line. The feel for what model railroading used to be is an entirely different matter, but one which most of us prefer to keep. While refurbished cars using older parts of various vintage manufacturers will not define the car as being original (and should be noted if sold), it might still be considered as vintage since no newer technology was used on it. Its modelers license that lets you do what you want to do on your own railroad. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scaleMy original conception was equipment from the early 1960's and before. That is not a "hard & fast" rule, I myself have talked about Quality Craft models from the mid 70's, just because they're a type of construction you no longer see, and my Aerotrain is a Bowser reissue. I am far from a purist, I love the Varney F-3 shells, but mine mostly ride on Athearn chassis. I am building passeger cars from Varney cardstock sides, with Northeastern wood roof and floor, but plastic ends and cast steps from Bethlehem car works. Is that vintage?, maybe not, but it still evokes the feel of what model railroading USED to be, when a modeller was rated by his creativity and talent, unlike today when the measure of a modeller is the size of the credit limit on his Visa card. > > I think it's more of a "feel" for what constitutes models from the "golden age" of model railroading (my own subjective description). Silver streak cars are vintage, even though they're still made today (as in fact Kurtz Kraft cars were most recently offered by Cannonball Car shops to use your own example). For example, I'd say an Athearn plastic boxcar with no claws on the doors, screw covers on the coupler pockets, and spring trucks is "vintage". The same car with claws, metal coupler covers and all delrin trucks is not. Aristo craft is vintage, AHM is not (although some early pieces may be considered such, like the "minicars" line of Angoplas automobiles), IHC would be DEFINITELY off topic. > > The recent discussion on Train Miniature was borderline, but, with the current changes in the hobby to ready to run garbage from China, they do evoke nostalgia. It's like the '72 Chevy Impala convertible I bought new to impress a girl (who's still married to me) is now considered a "classic". I thought it was a piece of junk and was glad to sell it off a few years later. > > If you want to talk about Bachmann and P2000 and DCC, there's lots of other lists. If you're going to be a puckerbutt about how it's only collectable if it's blueprint stock and locked in a glass case, you probably won't be happy here. If you just want to have fun with the trains we grew up with, jump in, the water's fine. > > I don't know if this answers your question or not, and anyone else who has thoughts on this, feel free to chime in. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Louis Greiff > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 10:49 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale > > > Dear Group, > > This is a general question rather than one regarding a specific vintage HO item. Do we have a clear idea of what's vintage and what's not? I ask because in the give-and-take of our discussions, this issue has come up, with some items declared to be "not vintage" and others declared to be on the border. For me vintage is anything before 1960, including all pre-plastic and only the very first plastic items, (e.g. Kurtz Kraft freight cars), but this is the subjective opinion of one individual model railroader. Our group seems too informal to have an official rule on this, but do we have a working consensus on what constitutes vintage vs. non- vintage? > > Lou > > > > > On 2/18/08 10:46 AM, "Graeme" <groups@...> wrote: > > > > > > > In message <bc3.223d8bad.34ea14a4@... <mailto:bc3.223d8bad.34ea14a4%40aol.com> >, WK2SHR@... <mailto:WK2SHR% 40aol.com> writes > > >Comments regarding Triang are welcome. > > Hi Dave, I am far from a Tri-ang expert, but do not recall any issued > with specific road names except Canadian Pacific. Earlier cars were > marked Transcontinental, or just Tri-ang Railways, rather like the > Lionel cars lettered Lionel Lines. > > There is a wonderful site dedicated to Tri-ang, with many, many > illustrations : > > http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/ > > Regarding the name Tri-ang Hornby, Hornby was the name of the trains > made by Meccano Limited - trains were 0 gauge tinplate and, later 00, > which was to a scale of 1/72nd, and called Hornby Dublo, running on H0 > track. Following the demise of Meccano Limited in 1964, Tri- ang > Railways bought the Hornby name, and rebranded their trains as Tri-ang > Hornby, eventually dropping the Tri-ang part. Tri-ang wanted the Hornby > name, as Hornby is toy trains in the UK, as Lionel is toy trains in the > US. > > The Hornby name continues today, although, like Lionel, has been through > several changes of ownership > > http://www.hornby.com >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5447	From: erieberk	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Its not in the Photos section, but in the Files, about the 12th item down from the top. Its listed as "DSC0 1835.jpg." Just click on it and it will open right to the photo. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > What is the name of the Album, where the photo is saved? And the name of > the picture. > > Garry Spear > > On 2/20/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > Chuck, If this O/B CN car is an original MDC (which I tend to > > doubt), it is uncataloged as it doesn't appear in any of their > > catalogs. While I've never seen it, perhaps it was offered only in > > Canada, which would not have been very likely for MDC, although other > > manufactures have marketed this way with certain roadnames, etc. > > > > Glenn, can you tell if this car was factory painted and > > lettered/"logoed", or does it appear as if it might have been > > decalled? Can you detect any clear overspray to help hide any > > decalling? Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com>, "Chuck > > Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Gary, > > > > > > Is this the original paint scheme? We do not have this car listed > > in the > > > file. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: > > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>] > > On Behalf > > > Of Gary Woodard > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > Heres the link to it http://f1.grp > > > <http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cF- > > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJH > > > ONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg> > > > yahoofs.com/v1/cF- > > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJHONIW7sEDDUBPMv6 > > > wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg > > > Gary W > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > > > > > I don't find it in either "files" or "photos". gj > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Gary Woodard <mailto:betsy662@> > > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com<vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>> > > ps.com > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM > > > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast > > boxcar, > > > showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side > > of the > > > car....:o) > > > > > > Gary W > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it > > > now. > > > > > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i > > 62sR8H > > > DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try > > > > > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i > > 62sR8H > > > DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> it now. > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5448	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: WRX Reefer Question

Group, I have a question that was raised on the GBW group by Mark Mathu regarding a 50's era craftsman type kit of WRX #9353. The WRX indicates a Western Refrigerated Lines (Green Bay & Western) car. I thought that if any group could help out with Marks question(s), this is could. This matter was raised when another GBW modeler purchased a built up model of #9353, sans box, at a swap meet and questioned the color of the roof and ends. Mark asked, "Regarding the Comet / Red Ball kit: I thought those two WRX models were pretty much interchangeable wood craftsman kits of the 1950s. Was one company a successor to the other? Those cars had printed cardboard sides on a wood body - my understanding is that the rest of the car was painted by the modeler so if a model has a black roof instead of a red roof, that was due to the modeler, not Comet or Red Ball. Is there any way to perhaps differentiate between Comet and Red Ball kits? My guess would be in the type of trucks or wheels used on the model might help determine the age of the model -- although I realize that craftsman kits were usually offered less trucks and couplers. Walthers also had a craftsman WRX reefer available into the mid 1970s but that car had the later WRX lettering style, not the early "arch lettering" style. Did they ever offer that car with the older-style lettering?" Mark has a very interesting and informative web site on the GB&W at http://www.greenbayroute.com/ The information received will be used to up-date his GBW (and related lines) model list on that site. Any help would be appreciated. John Hagen Editor, Green Bay and Western Historical Society, Ic., Newsletter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5449	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO s

Great!  Let me know how it works out.  I will try to prepare some molds this week, because I have to cast an end that was missing from a Quality Craft Automobile car I bought.  This is a very strange end with doors cast into it, so I can't use a regular end.  Maybe I can pour next weekend.  I use plain old molding plaster and it seems to work fine. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: betsy662@... Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:04:23 -0800 Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale Hi Vic, I already have a  casting ladle, got it from Micro Mark a few years ago, I could get some old No1 casting plaster, we don't have hydrocal locally, so old No1 would have to do.......... .:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@hotmail. com> To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:07:38 PM Subject: RE: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale I made a mold like this once using plaster.  I let it dry for about a week or so, then melted up a few tire balancing weights and poured a new wall for a Woodland scenics Rocky's.  I bought 2 kits, but one had a missing wall.  The new one made from the lead came out perfect and you couldn't tell once it was primed.  You can probably do that for the door.  All you need to do to get the tire weights is go to a tire store parking lot and nose the pavement a bit.  You will help the environment as well as yourself.  It is pretty easy to melt lead and pour.  I just used a propane torch and formed a very crude ladle out of a tin can.  The door should be easy because one side is perfectly flat. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: mwbauers55@wi. rr.com Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:14:22 -0600 Subject: Re: MDC Diecast Boxcar/ was: [vintageHO] Triang Passenger cars, OO scale May I suggest plaster for the mold? As I recall...... let it dry in the open for a few days, then bake it in a toaster oven for an hour or so set on low to completely dry it out. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Feb 19, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Gary Woodard wrote: Hi Glenn, I have some Kleen Klay, which is used in casting primarily for aiding in mold making, it too can be used as a mold for one shots, but I don't know if I can cast metal in it real easy, most polyurathanes have the consistency of water when you mix them, whereas metal, even molten metal doesn't, and I was figuring on casting it in metal, I have some old scrap metal used primarily for making printing plates, this stuff is almost as nice to work with as some of the more expensive alloys...... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476  You might try some kids' modeling clay--spray the remaining door with silicone spray--take a gob of clay and mash it down over the face of the door--turn it over and fill with something like JB Weld.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard Hi Glenn, I had been thinking of doing just that, making a two part mold and then recasting the door, I have plenty of silicone mold making compound, but then doing that kind of tooling for just knocking off one door really isn't cost effective either, I have considered taking the car apart and making molds of the entire car, this would of course justify the cost of using up the silicone to make several dozen cars, yet the more I think about it, the more I would rather just keep it as original as possible, if I have to make a door thats fine, I'm certainly not looking to get into the business end of this hobby again....... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Many years ago a friend who is both a model railroader and a dentist assisted me--he had a vacuum forming machine--we made a mold of the remaining door--then cast a copy in the acrylic used to make dentures.  Comes out bright pink but works.  Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now! Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". Check it out.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5450	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Defined

That is what I like, someone who RUNS their vintage HO!    I love my old rolling stock and engines, but all of them need to run with DCC, nice trucks, and of course Kadee couplers.  I am also reworking the Mantua and Bowser engines to work with can motors and lots of brass details from PSC and Cal Scale.  Sometimes I superdetail the underframe, depending on how nice the car itself is. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: betsy662@... Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 02:44:27 -0800 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage Defined Hi Bill, Don't feel too guilty, that boxcar I uploaded a picture of in the files has brand spanking new Athearn metal wheel Bettendorf trucks under it, it will have brand new Kadee couplers installed as well, I also have a vintage Mantua Mikado with a Cannon can motor, NWSL gears, and is also ready to be DCC if I ever switch over, it also runs like a Swiss watch, much better than having the jack rabbit slow speed of the original.... ......... :o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@verizon. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:36:39 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage Defined Don, I'm glad to see that you have no qualms in modifying vintage equipment to make them run like new. It makes me feel a little better about the job I did on my Mantua 8-Ball Mogul from the 40's. A photo of my 2-6-0 is in my Cinder Valley album. It is equipped with RP-25 nickle silver drivers, idler gearbox and a Sagami can motor. Several Cal Scale castings were added and a PFM brass tender. It is also equipped with a Soundtraxx Tsunami decoder and it runs beautifully, as good as any loco manufactured today. I always felt a little guilty for changing it, but I wanted it to be usable on my railroad. Bill DeFoe Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". Check it out.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5451	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Old Trix (HO)

Hi Don: Not to argue the differences between Trix International and Express. Personally, I don't really care. I am looking at the box this thing is in, which is where I am getting my information......so I assume either the box or the catalog is wrong, not you. The box says Trix Express and the model in it is DC. The box is generally yellow, with a colored pic of the model on the front, and it says it was "Made in Western Germany". Cheers, Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5452	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

The photo is not the clearest--especially the left part of the side--but I would suspect decaled as the "AB Brake" is not straight, The CN logo is cut over the rib, which could indicate a well-set up silk screen, or it could be a careful decal job cutting the decal rather than draping it over the rib. The number at the left stands out, not the same brightness as the other lettering. Also points for decal. So I'm going to guess decal. Another thing we may have here--A lot of Canadian modelers complain that they can't buy cars and locos for their "home roads" Even today, there are ads from companies that either have custom-decorated cars and locos done, or who buy quantities of undec's and paint and decal them--kind of like the old Kar-Line/ gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar > Chuck, If this O/B CN car is an original MDC (which I tend to > doubt), it is uncataloged as it doesn't appear in any of their > catalogs. While I've never seen it, perhaps it was offered only in > Canada, which would not have been very likely for MDC, although other > manufactures have marketed this way with certain roadnames, etc. > > Glenn, can you tell if this car was factory painted and > lettered/"logoed", or does it appear as if it might have been > decalled? Can you detect any clear overspray to help hide any > decalling? Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> > wrote: >> >> Gary, >> >> Is this the original paint scheme? We do not have this car listed > in the >> file. >> >> >> >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf >> Of Gary Woodard >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> >> >> Hi Glenn, >> Heres the link to it http://f1.grp >> <http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cF- > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJH >> ONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg> >> yahoofs.com/v1/cF- > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQpwnK2PbLw5DOAgqUplBxlGGJHONIW7sEDDUBPMv6 >> wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe51ILV2qJa865Vg2I/DSC01835.jpg >> Gary W >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> I don't find it in either "files" or "photos". gj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Gary Woodard <mailto:betsy662@...> >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> ps.com >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast > boxcar, >> showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side > of the >> car....:o) >> >> Gary W >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it >> now. >> > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i > 62sR8H >> DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try >> > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i > 62sR8H >> DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> it now. >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5453	From: erieberk	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question

Hello John, Your type of question is one of the ones we enjoy digging up the answer to, if we can. Please know though, for Mark's information, that although Comet and Red Ball may look superficially similar, they are far from the same, i.e., they cannot be interchanged in their kit (at least not without some modifications). Neither manufacturer was a predecessor to the other (nor successor). Therre were a good number of H0 rolling stock manufacturers back in those days which used cardboard sides, some very well known such as Varney (on wood) and Mantua (on metal), and some not very well known such as Megow, Laconia and Lehigh Models. Then there were also a number of manufacturers which did not produce kits, but offered the carboard sides only for the modeler to use on the model he scratch built. One such manufacturer of these comes to mind -- Champion, but there were others. While Mark may have some understanding of Red Ball and how they were finished, the Comet kits had cardstock ends and roof so it did not need to be painted. This in itself is one way to differentiate between Comet and Red Ball. Walthers line of the old Pacific HO Silver Streak cars never offered a GB&W WRX reefer with "arch lettering," but they were wood side cars anyway, not cardboard side. The reporting number (#9353) you offer is a great starting point as most often the numbers used on these cars' sides were used by a particular manufacturer only, usually with different numbers being used by different manufacturers. As it turns out -- Red Ball DID produce a Green Bay & Western W.R.X. 9353 car (with "arched lettering,") as per both their Catalog #10 and Catalog #11; a 41' grey colored car ("built 1929"), kit #118. So, it looks like the mystery is solved. Always fun playing sleuth, especially when we can come up with an answer. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Group, I have a question that was raised on the GBW group by Mark > Mathu regarding a 50's era craftsman type kit of WRX #9353. The WRX > indicates a Western Refrigerated Lines (Green Bay & Western) car. I > thought that if any group could help out with Marks question(s), this > is could. This matter was raised when another GBW modeler purchased a > built up model of #9353, sans box, at a swap meet and questioned the > color of the roof and ends. > > Mark asked, "Regarding the Comet / Red Ball kit: I thought those two > WRX models were pretty much interchangeable wood craftsman kits of > the 1950s. Was one company a successor to the other? Those cars had > printed cardboard sides on a wood body - my understanding is that the > rest of the car was painted by the modeler so if a model has a black > roof instead of a red roof, that was due to the modeler, not Comet or > Red Ball. > > Is there any way to perhaps differentiate between Comet and Red Ball > kits? My guess would be in the type of trucks or wheels used on the > model might help determine the age of the model -- although I realize > that craftsman kits were usually offered less trucks and couplers. > > Walthers also had a craftsman WRX reefer available into the mid 1970s > but that car had the later WRX lettering style, not the early "arch > lettering" style. Did they ever offer that car with the older-style > lettering?" > > Mark has a very interesting and informative web site on the GB&W at > http://www.greenbayroute.com/ The information received will be used > to up-date his GBW (and related lines) model list on that site. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > John Hagen > Editor, Green Bay and Western Historical Society, Ic., Newsletter >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5454	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question

Ray,   Thank you very much for your information. I have forwarded your reply to Mark.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 13:29 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: WRX Reefer Question   Hello John, Your type of question is one of the ones we enjoy digging up the answer to, if we can. Please know though, for Mark's information, that although Comet and Red Ball may look superficially similar, they are far from the same, i.e., they cannot be interchanged in their kit (at least not without some modifications) . Neither manufacturer was a predecessor to the other (nor successor). Therre were a good number of H0 rolling stock manufacturers back in those days which used cardboard sides, some very well known such as Varney (on wood) and Mantua (on metal), and some not very well known such as Megow, Laconia and Lehigh Models. Then there were also a number of manufacturers which did not produce kits, but offered the carboard sides only for the modeler to use on the model he scratch built. One such manufacturer of these comes to mind -- Champion, but there were others. While Mark may have some understanding of Red Ball and how they were finished, the Comet kits had cardstock ends and roof so it did not need to be painted. This in itself is one way to differentiate between Comet and Red Ball. Walthers line of the old Pacific HO Silver Streak cars never offered a GB&W WRX reefer with "arch lettering," but they were wood side cars anyway, not cardboard side. The reporting number (#9353) you offer is a great starting point as most often the numbers used on these cars' sides were used by a particular manufacturer only, usually with different numbers being used by different manufacturers. As it turns out -- Red Ball DID produce a Green Bay & Western W.R.X. 9353 car (with "arched lettering,") as per both their Catalog #10 and Catalog #11; a 41' grey colored car ("built 1929"), kit #118. So, it looks like the mystery is solved. Always fun playing sleuth, especially when we can come up with an answer. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@. ..> wrote: > > Group, I have a question that was raised on the GBW group by Mark > Mathu regarding a 50's era craftsman type kit of WRX #9353. The WRX > indicates a Western Refrigerated Lines (Green Bay & Western) car. I > thought that if any group could help out with Marks question(s), this > is could. This matter was raised when another GBW modeler purchased a > built up model of #9353, sans box, at a swap meet and questioned the > color of the roof and ends. > > Mark asked, "Regarding the Comet / Red Ball kit: I thought those two > WRX models were pretty much interchangeable wood craftsman kits of > the 1950s. Was one company a successor to the other? Those cars had > printed cardboard sides on a wood body - my understanding is that the > rest of the car was painted by the modeler so if a model has a black > roof instead of a red roof, that was due to the modeler, not Comet or > Red Ball. > > Is there any way to perhaps differentiate between Comet and Red Ball > kits? My guess would be in the type of trucks or wheels used on the > model might help determine the age of the model -- although I realize > that craftsman kits were usually offered less trucks and couplers. > > Walthers also had a craftsman WRX reefer available into the mid 1970s > but that car had the later WRX lettering style, not the early "arch > lettering" style. Did they ever offer that car with the older-style > lettering?" > > Mark has a very interesting and informative web site on the GB&W at > http://www.greenbay route.com/ The information received will be used > to up-date his GBW (and related lines) model list on that site. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > John Hagen > Editor, Green Bay and Western Historical Society, Ic., Newsletter >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5455	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Athearn used the youngstown doors, but every plastic MDC car I have came with the flat ones.  I'll look downstairs to see if I may have a spare.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Don, Where would I find those doors, I haven't seen anything but Youngstown doors on most boxcars for year????:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:33:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar It wouldn't be original, but if you took one of the crrent plastic flat plate doors, cut off the "claws" and did some judicious filing so it fits the guides, it would match.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF-7R_ Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6wJQdT- fkxtSmdfLLTe51IL V2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5456	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Hi Don, Darn, and I was at Dana's today too and forgot about it, I was more concerned with giving shakedown runs to mine and my wife's NYC Hudson's, and my Nickel Plate Berk, I do have a home layout, however, it isn't large enough to accommodate my passenger cars, each one of the Hudson's pulled all but one of the passenger cars, and the only reason it didn't pull that one was because of a missing coupler, theres a lot to be said about those old Rivarossi engines. I will upload video of it all later, I did manage to find a vintage package of Kadee No.4 couplers, is Kadee not making these any longer? Are they out of their minds? I guess I could answer my own questions with another question, does everything made today come from China??????:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:43:36 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Athearn used the youngstown doors, but every plastic MDC car I have came with the flat ones.  I'll look downstairs to see if I may have a spare.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Don, Where would I find those doors, I haven't seen anything but Youngstown doors on most boxcars for year????:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:33:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar It wouldn't be original, but if you took one of the crrent plastic flat plate doors, cut off the "claws" and did some judicious filing so it fits the guides, it would match.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF-7R_ Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6wJQdT- fkxtSmdfLLTe51IL V2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5457	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Hi Gary, OK, thanks. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Gary Woodard Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:06 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar   Hi Chuck, I have no idea, it came in a lot of freight cars I got off of ebay one time, I've been able to use every one of those freight cars too, except I was wanting to restore this one before it goes onto the layout...... ..:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:01:13 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Gary, Is this the original paint scheme?  We do not have this car listed in the file.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Gary Woodard Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar   Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF-7R_ Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6wJQdT- fkxtSmdfLLTe51IL V2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar   Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W   Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.     Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.     Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5458	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: MRC

Anyone have an email address for Model Rectifier Corp?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5459	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Hi Glenn, I don't believe it was original lettering, as the decal film becomes very apparent when viewing the car in hand, and the paint is really bad, naturally I will be removing the paint and then primering all the parts.....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:25:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar The photo is not the clearest--especiall y the left part of the side--but I would suspect decaled as the "AB Brake" is not straight, The CN logo is cut over the rib, which could indicate a well-set up silk screen, or it could be a careful decal job cutting the decal rather than draping it over the rib. The number at the left stands out, not the same brightness as the other lettering. Also points for decal. So I'm going to guess decal. Another thing we may have here--A lot of Canadian modelers complain that they can't buy cars and locos for their "home roads" Even today, there are ads from companies that either have custom-decorated cars and locos done, or who buy quantities of undec's and paint and decal them--kind of like the old Kar-Line/ gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar > Chuck, If this O/B CN car is an original MDC (which I tend to > doubt), it is uncataloged as it doesn't appear in any of their > catalogs. While I've never seen it, perhaps it was offered only in > Canada, which would not have been very likely for MDC, although other > manufactures have marketed this way with certain roadnames, etc. > > Glenn, can you tell if this car was factory painted and > lettered/"logoed" , or does it appear as if it might have been > decalled? Can you detect any clear overspray to help hide any > decalling? Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> > wrote: >> >> Gary, >> >> Is this the original paint scheme? We do not have this car listed > in the >> file. >> >> >> >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] > On Behalf >> Of Gary Woodard >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> >> >> Hi Glenn, >> Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. >> <http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF- > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJH >> ONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQd T-fkxtSmdfLLTe51 ILV2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg> >> yahoofs.com/ v1/cF- > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6 >> wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe5 1ILV2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg >> Gary W >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Glenn476 <glenn476@.. .> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> I don't find it in either "files" or "photos". gj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Gary Woodard <mailto:betsy662@ ...> >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> ps.com >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast > boxcar, >> showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side > of the >> car....:o) >> >> Gary W >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it >> now. >> > <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=51733/ *http:/mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i > 62sR8H >> DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ% 20> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try >> > <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=51733/ *http:/mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i > 62sR8H >> DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ% 20> it now. >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5460	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Hi Garry, Its in the files section, and its not in a folder, it just goes by its camera assigned designation, which is a dsc number............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 9:20:48 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar What is the name of the Album, where the photo is saved?  And the name of the picture. Garry Spear On 2/20/08, erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect. com> wrote: Chuck, If this O/B CN car is an original MDC (which I tend to doubt), it is uncataloged as it doesn't appear in any of their catalogs. While I've never seen it, perhaps it was offered only in Canada, which would not have been very likely for MDC, although other manufactures have marketed this way with certain roadnames, etc. Glenn, can you tell if this car was factory painted and lettered/"logoed", or does it appear as if it might have been decalled? Can you detect any clear overspray to help hide any decalling? Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@.. .> wrote: > > Gary, > > Is this the original paint scheme? We do not have this car listed in the > file. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of Gary Woodard > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > > > Hi Glenn, > Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. > <http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF- 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJH > ONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQd T-fkxtSmdfLLTe51 ILV2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg> > yahoofs.com/ v1/cF- 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6 > wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe5 1ILV2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg > Gary W > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > I don't find it in either "files" or "photos". gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary Woodard <mailto:betsy662@...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> ps.com > > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar > > > > Hi All, > > I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, > showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the > car....:o) > > Gary W > > > > > > > _____ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=51733/ *http:/mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i 62sR8H > DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ% 20> > > > > > > _____ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try > <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=51733/ *http:/mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i 62sR8H > DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ% 20> it now. > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5461	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: MRC

Hi Glenn, mrcsupport@... Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:40:21 PM Subject: [vintageHO] MRC Anyone have an email address for Model Rectifier Corp? Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5462	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

Laurie just did that-- ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Don, Darn, and I was at Dana's today too and forgot about it, I was more concerned with giving shakedown runs to mine and my wife's NYC Hudson's, and my Nickel Plate Berk, I do have a home layout, however, it isn't large enough to accommodate my passenger cars, each one of the Hudson's pulled all but one of the passenger cars, and the only reason it didn't pull that one was because of a missing coupler, theres a lot to be said about those old Rivarossi engines. I will upload video of it all later, I did manage to find a vintage package of Kadee No.4 couplers, is Kadee not making these any longer? Are they out of their minds? I guess I could answer my own questions with another question, does everything made today come from China??????:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:43:36 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Athearn used the youngstown doors, but every plastic MDC car I have came with the flat ones.  I'll look downstairs to see if I may have a spare.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Don, Where would I find those doors, I haven't seen anything but Youngstown doors on most boxcars for year????:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:33:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar It wouldn't be original, but if you took one of the crrent plastic flat plate doors, cut off the "claws" and did some judicious filing so it fits the guides, it would match.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF-7R_ Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6wJQdT- fkxtSmdfLLTe51IL V2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5463	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

sorry--something slipped and that went to the wrong group-- ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Laurie just did that-- ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Don, Darn, and I was at Dana's today too and forgot about it, I was more concerned with giving shakedown runs to mine and my wife's NYC Hudson's, and my Nickel Plate Berk, I do have a home layout, however, it isn't large enough to accommodate my passenger cars, each one of the Hudson's pulled all but one of the passenger cars, and the only reason it didn't pull that one was because of a missing coupler, theres a lot to be said about those old Rivarossi engines. I will upload video of it all later, I did manage to find a vintage package of Kadee No.4 couplers, is Kadee not making these any longer? Are they out of their minds? I guess I could answer my own questions with another question, does everything made today come from China??????:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:43:36 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Athearn used the youngstown doors, but every plastic MDC car I have came with the flat ones.  I'll look downstairs to see if I may have a spare.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Don, Where would I find those doors, I haven't seen anything but Youngstown doors on most boxcars for year????:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:33:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar It wouldn't be original, but if you took one of the crrent plastic flat plate doors, cut off the "claws" and did some judicious filing so it fits the guides, it would match.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi Glenn, Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF-7R_ Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6wJQdT- fkxtSmdfLLTe51IL V2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar I don't find it in either "files" or "photos".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar Hi All, I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast boxcar, showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side of the car....:o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5464	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: cardboard sides

In 1994, Pacific Coast Region, NMRA celebrated its 50th anniversary. In addition to the traditional convention car, a sheet of cardstock sides like those sold 50 years earlier were distributed. They do show up from time to time--they are for an Orange reefer, I believe lettered, "PCR Gold" Have any of you seen these? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:28 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: WRX Reefer Question > Hello John, Your type of question is one of the ones we enjoy > digging up the answer to, if we can. Please know though, for Mark's > information, that although Comet and Red Ball may look superficially > similar, they are far from the same, i.e., they cannot be > interchanged in their kit (at least not without some modifications). > Neither manufacturer was a predecessor to the other (nor successor). > Therre were a good number of H0 rolling stock manufacturers back in > those days which used cardboard sides, some very well known such as > Varney (on wood) and Mantua (on metal), and some not very well known > such as Megow, Laconia and Lehigh Models. > > Then there were also a number of manufacturers which did not produce > kits, but offered the carboard sides only for the modeler to use on > the model he scratch built. One such manufacturer of these comes to > mind -- Champion, but there were others. > > While Mark may have some understanding of Red Ball and how they were > finished, the Comet kits had cardstock ends and roof so it did not > need to be painted. This in itself is one way to differentiate > between Comet and Red Ball. Walthers line of the old Pacific HO > Silver Streak cars never offered a GB&W WRX reefer with "arch > lettering," but they were wood side cars anyway, not cardboard side. > > The reporting number (#9353) you offer is a great starting point as > most often the numbers used on these cars' sides were used by a > particular manufacturer only, usually with different numbers being > used by different manufacturers. As it turns out -- Red Ball DID > produce a Green Bay & Western W.R.X. 9353 car (with "arched > lettering,") as per both their Catalog #10 and Catalog #11; a 41' > grey colored car ("built 1929"), kit #118. So, it looks like the > mystery is solved. Always fun playing sleuth, especially when we can > come up with an answer. Best, Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: >> >> Group, I have a question that was raised on the GBW group by Mark >> Mathu regarding a 50's era craftsman type kit of WRX #9353. The WRX >> indicates a Western Refrigerated Lines (Green Bay & Western) car. I >> thought that if any group could help out with Marks question(s), > this >> is could. This matter was raised when another GBW modeler purchased > a >> built up model of #9353, sans box, at a swap meet and questioned > the >> color of the roof and ends. >> >> Mark asked, "Regarding the Comet / Red Ball kit: I thought those > two >> WRX models were pretty much interchangeable wood craftsman kits of >> the 1950s. Was one company a successor to the other? Those cars had >> printed cardboard sides on a wood body - my understanding is that > the >> rest of the car was painted by the modeler so if a model has a > black >> roof instead of a red roof, that was due to the modeler, not Comet > or >> Red Ball. >> >> Is there any way to perhaps differentiate between Comet and Red > Ball >> kits? My guess would be in the type of trucks or wheels used on the >> model might help determine the age of the model -- although I > realize >> that craftsman kits were usually offered less trucks and couplers. >> >> Walthers also had a craftsman WRX reefer available into the mid > 1970s >> but that car had the later WRX lettering style, not the early "arch >> lettering" style. Did they ever offer that car with the older-style >> lettering?" >> >> Mark has a very interesting and informative web site on the GB&W at >> http://www.greenbayroute.com/ The information received will be used >> to up-date his GBW (and related lines) model list on that site. >> >> Any help would be appreciated. >> >> John Hagen >> Editor, Green Bay and Western Historical Society, Ic., Newsletter >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5465	From: garyp552002	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Gilbert HO 040 Tank Locomotive

Hello, I have a Gilbert Ho 040 tank locomotive.My giess it was made in the early 1960's. It is cast metal and has flat topped tanks on each side. I took it apart years ago to clean and rebuild it. It was put in a box and forgotten about for 20 years. Now I have time and would like to put it back together and I don't remember the location of all the parts, electric wipers, insulation etc. Does anyone have a schematic or parts diagram that could be emailed? What was the correct name for this model? I would appreciate any help! Thanks Gary Pardue

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5466	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

OK--if you're going to do it over--I think that Micro Scale decals are the best--At least for wide-gauge cars. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar Hi Glenn, I don't believe it was original lettering, as the decal film becomes very apparent when viewing the car in hand, and the paint is really bad, naturally I will be removing the paint and then primering all the parts.....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:25:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar The photo is not the clearest--especiall y the left part of the side--but I would suspect decaled as the "AB Brake" is not straight, The CN logo is cut over the rib, which could indicate a well-set up silk screen, or it could be a careful decal job cutting the decal rather than draping it over the rib. The number at the left stands out, not the same brightness as the other lettering. Also points for decal. So I'm going to guess decal. Another thing we may have here--A lot of Canadian modelers complain that they can't buy cars and locos for their "home roads" Even today, there are ads from companies that either have custom-decorated cars and locos done, or who buy quantities of undec's and paint and decal them--kind of like the old Kar-Line/ gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar > Chuck, If this O/B CN car is an original MDC (which I tend to > doubt), it is uncataloged as it doesn't appear in any of their > catalogs. While I've never seen it, perhaps it was offered only in > Canada, which would not have been very likely for MDC, although other > manufactures have marketed this way with certain roadnames, etc. > > Glenn, can you tell if this car was factory painted and > lettered/"logoed" , or does it appear as if it might have been > decalled? Can you detect any clear overspray to help hide any > decalling? Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> > wrote: >> >> Gary, >> >> Is this the original paint scheme? We do not have this car listed > in the >> file. >> >> >> >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] > On Behalf >> Of Gary Woodard >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> >> >> Hi Glenn, >> Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. >> <http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF- > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJH >> ONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQd T-fkxtSmdfLLTe51 ILV2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg> >> yahoofs.com/ v1/cF- > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6 >> wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe5 1ILV2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg >> Gary W >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Glenn476 <glenn476@.. .> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> I don't find it in either "files" or "photos". gj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Gary Woodard <mailto:betsy662@ ...> >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> ps.com >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast > boxcar, >> showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side > of the >> car....:o) >> >> Gary W >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it >> now. >> > <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=51733/ *http:/mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i > 62sR8H >> DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ% 20> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try >> > <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=51733/ *http:/mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i > 62sR8H >> DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ% 20> it now. >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5467	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/20/2008
Subject: Re: Picture of Boxcar

I'll probably use Microscale decals for the data, I am planning on using the local clubs roadname, which is the West Hernando Central, for the road name and number............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:22:01 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar OK--if you're going to do it over--I think that Micro Scale decals are the best--At least for wide-gauge cars. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar Hi Glenn, I don't believe it was original lettering, as the decal film becomes very apparent when viewing the car in hand, and the paint is really bad, naturally I will be removing the paint and then primering all the parts.....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:25:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar The photo is not the clearest--especiall y the left part of the side--but I would suspect decaled as the "AB Brake" is not straight, The CN logo is cut over the rib, which could indicate a well-set up silk screen, or it could be a careful decal job cutting the decal rather than draping it over the rib. The number at the left stands out, not the same brightness as the other lettering. Also points for decal. So I'm going to guess decal. Another thing we may have here--A lot of Canadian modelers complain that they can't buy cars and locos for their "home roads" Even today, there are ads from companies that either have custom-decorated cars and locos done, or who buy quantities of undec's and paint and decal them--kind of like the old Kar-Line/ gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Picture of Boxcar > Chuck, If this O/B CN car is an original MDC (which I tend to > doubt), it is uncataloged as it doesn't appear in any of their > catalogs. While I've never seen it, perhaps it was offered only in > Canada, which would not have been very likely for MDC, although other > manufactures have marketed this way with certain roadnames, etc. > > Glenn, can you tell if this car was factory painted and > lettered/"logoed" , or does it appear as if it might have been > decalled? Can you detect any clear overspray to help hide any > decalling? Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> > wrote: >> >> Gary, >> >> Is this the original paint scheme? We do not have this car listed > in the >> file. >> >> >> >> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at >> http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] > On Behalf >> Of Gary Woodard >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:59 PM >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> >> >> Hi Glenn, >> Heres the link to it http://f1.grp. >> <http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/cF- > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJH >> ONIW7sEDDUBPMv6wJQd T-fkxtSmdfLLTe51 ILV2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg> >> yahoofs.com/ v1/cF- > 7R_Y080S_i84nTGgZQp wnK2PbLw5DOAgqUp lBxlGGJHONIW7sED DUBPMv6 >> wJQdT-fkxtSmdfLLTe5 1ILV2qJa865Vg2I/ DSC01835. jpg >> Gary W >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Glenn476 <glenn476@.. .> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:37:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> I don't find it in either "files" or "photos". gj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Gary Woodard <mailto:betsy662@ ...> >> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> ps.com >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:53 PM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Picture of Boxcar >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have uploaded a picture in the files section of the MDC diecast > boxcar, >> showing the door that has its counterpart missing on the other side > of the >> car....:o) >> >> Gary W >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it >> now. >> > <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=51733/ *http:/mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i > 62sR8H >> DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ% 20> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try >> > <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=51733/ *http:/mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i > 62sR8H >> DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ% 20> it now. >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5468	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: MRC

Thanks--I thought I had it in the machine somewhere--but couldn't find it.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MRC Hi Glenn, mrcsupport@... Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:40:21 PM Subject: [vintageHO] MRC Anyone have an email address for Model Rectifier Corp? Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5469	From: topstokes	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Crusader parts and vintage brass

I haven't posted much due to the fact that most of my vintage pieces are brass. The group appears to be more orientated toward mass produced components which would exclude many of my engines. However I have been following your Crusader thread with a bit of interest. I have just completed restoring one and offer the following concerning the trailing truck. The Penn Line truck on my Crusader is very plain considering construction and detail. It is not cast but is fabricated of brass and has a very small diameter trailing wheel. The nearest item I have in my parts box that aproaches the physical size is an old Athearn 0-4-2T trailing truck. It could be modified to appear as the Penn Line truck and would need a spacer to simulate the shelf used to attach the Penn Line truck to the frame. It also has the advantage of no rear frame extension. A breakdown of Crusader parts on a drawing are included on the parts CD from Bowser if anyone is interested. I hope this info is of interest. Topstokes

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5470	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Shakedown Run Video

Hi All, I uploaded a video of mine and my wifes Dreyfus Hudson's, (yes, plural), pulling an HO version of the 20th Century Ltd, also includes footage of my recently aquired  Berkshire, all three are fairly vintage engines, amazing that so many years ago we were told by the "experts" in the hobby that these plastic engines are junk, that they wouldn't last, well lets see, how many of those "experts" are still running their brass engines of the era, some are of course, but these old AHM brutes just keep on going and going and going, just like the Energizer Bunny!!!!!!!!!!!:o) Both of my Hudson's were working engines when I got them, the Berk on the other hand had been sitting around doing nothing for a number of years, it seems that it had electrical issues, which are now somewhat resolved, will still need to add weight to the tender to assure contact. And for Dave F., both of my Hudson's will pull all these passenger cars on level track, which pretty much describes the NYC Water Level route anyway, yesterday I was pulling ten out of the eleven cars, the only reason that the eleventh car wasn't being pulled was because it has a broken coupler...:o) http://youtube.com/watch?v=rz2mq5nOn90 Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5471	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: [HO] Shakedown Run Video

Good show.   Roger Aultman         ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ; all-railroads@yahoogroups.com ; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: [HO] Shakedown Run Video Hi All, I uploaded a video of mine and my wifes Dreyfus Hudson's, (yes, plural), pulling an HO version of the 20th Century Ltd, also includes footage of my recently aquired Berkshire, all three are fairly vintage engines, amazing that so many years ago we were told by the "experts" in the hobby that these plastic engines are junk, that they wouldn't last, well lets see, how many of those "experts" are still running their brass engines of the era, some are of course, but these old AHM brutes just keep on going and going and going, just like the Energizer Bunny!!!!!!! !!!!:o) Both of my Hudson's were working engines when I got them, the Berk on the other hand had been sitting around doing nothing for a number of years, it seems that it had electrical issues, which are now somewhat resolved, will still need to add weight to the tender to assure contact. And for Dave F., both of my Hudson's will pull all these passenger cars on level track, which pretty much describes the NYC Water Level route anyway, yesterday I was pulling ten out of the eleven cars, the only reason that the eleventh car wasn't being pulled was because it has a broken coupler...:o) http://youtube. com/watch? v=rz2mq5nOn90 Gary W ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5472	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Old 1950s Stuff

List: Here's a new one not previously mentioned: Castor Plastics. Anyone ever heard of this presumably old mfr? At a train show in Florida some time back, I picked up an HO model of a B-1 (BB-3) PRR electric engine used to switch cars at (Sunnyside Yard) way back when. The model is in good shape, missing front and back porch handrails, and painted for PRR. Runs about like a 1950s-tech engine ususally runs: fast, with no flywheel. Nice metal gear works, no plastic or nylon, sort of looks like a high-end clock on the inside. DC engine. The underside indicates it was made by "Castor Plastics". I never heard of these guys, and was wondering if anyone else had..... Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5473	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff

I have a picture of mine in my folder http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/a328 I have read these were the first plastic H-0 locomotives, appearing shortly after WWII.  The one I have runs quite well.  Roger Aultman     List: Here's a new one not previously mentioned: Castor Plastics. Anyone ever heard of this presumably old mfr? At a train show in Florida some time back, I picked up an HO model of a B-1 (BB-3) PRR electric engine used to switch cars at (Sunnyside Yard) way back when. The model is in good shape, missing front and back porch handrails, and painted for PRR. Runs about like a 1950s-tech engine ususally runs: fast, with no flywheel. Nice metal gear works, no plastic or nylon, sort of looks like a high-end clock on the inside. DC engine. The underside indicates it was made by "Castor Plastics". I never heard of these guys, and was wondering if anyone else had..... Dave F ************ ** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living. aol.com/video/ how-to-please- your-picky- eater/rachel- campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID= aolcmp0030000000 2598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5474	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > I have a picture of mine in my folder http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/a328 > I have read these were the first plastic H-0 locomotives, appearing shortly after WWII. The one I have runs quite well. Roger Aultman > > > > > List: > > Here's a new one not previously mentioned: Castor Plastics. > > Anyone ever heard of this presumably old mfr? At a train show in Florida > some time back, I picked up an HO model of a B-1 (BB-3) PRR electric > engine used to switch cars at (Sunnyside Yard) way back when. > > The model is in good shape, missing front and back porch handrails, > and painted for PRR. Runs about like a 1950s-tech engine ususally runs: > fast, with no flywheel. Nice metal gear works, no plastic or nylon, sort > of looks like a high-end clock on the inside. DC engine. > > The underside indicates it was made by "Castor Plastics". I never heard > of these guys, and was wondering if anyone else had..... > > Dave F > Do any of you remember the series "Tuxedo Junction" that ran several months during the early (I think) fifties in MR? It was informative and entertaining about the building of a large PRR HO layout in a barn. East coast location as I remember. George Allen was one of the two guys involved, can't get the other man's name out of the cobwebs. Anyway, Some photos of the layout showed these locomotives. I had always wondered what the prototype was and who had made the model. Now I know. Roger's photo brought that story to the forefront of my mind and let me go, once again, back to a simpler time in a young mans life. Sometimes I think thats the main enjoyment I get from this group. Keep it up. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI > > ************** > Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. > (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campo\ s-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5475	From: Ted Walton	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: trimming messages again

The digest messages are getting long again (180 units for 25 messages) because failure to trim response to previous messages to just the important stuff. Below is a message that contained page after page of what appears to be useless format codes. Does anyone else get these codes as part of the messages or is it my computer or ISP provider? or maybe YahooGroups' fault? I don't get this list of extraneous "format codes?" from other train groups, just several time a week in vintageHO. Not all emails have them, just a few. As a reminder, when the "digest messages get to large. not all the messages get downloaded that are suppose to be in that Digest file (email). Ted Walton One out of 25 messages in Digest Number 1160, Feb 21. Re: MRC Posted by: "Gary Woodard" <mailto:betsy662@...?Subject= Re%3A%20MRC>betsy662@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/betsy662>betsy662 Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:10 pm (PST) Hi Glenn, <mailto:mrcsupport%40modelrectifier.com>mrcsupport@... Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <<mailto:glenn476%404fast.net>glenn476@...> To: <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:40:21 PM Subject: [vintageHO] MRC Anyone have an email address for Model Rectifier Corp? <!-- #ygrp-mkp{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;} #ygrp-mkp hr{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrp-mkp #hd{ color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;} #ygrp-mkp #ads{ margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-mkp .ad{ padding:0 0;} #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} --> <!-- #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ font-family:Arial;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} --> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family:Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family:Arial; clear:both;} #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding:0 1px;} #ygrp-actbar{ clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} #ygrp-actbar .left{ float:left;white-space:nowrap;} .bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} #ygrp-ft{ font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; padding:5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-vital{ background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrp-vital ul{ padding:0;margin:2px 0;} #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;} #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-vital a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color:#999;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding:8px 0;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin:0;} o{font-size:0;} .MsoNormal{ margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrp-text tt{ font-size:120%;} blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} .replbq{margin:4;} --> -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1287 - Release Date: 2/19/2008 10:55 AM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5476	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff - Castor

WK2SHR@... wrote: > List: > > Here's a new one not previously mentioned: Castor Plastics. > > Anyone ever heard of this presumably old mfr? At a train show in Florida > some time back, I picked up an HO model of a B-1 (BB-3) PRR electric > engine used to switch cars at (Sunnyside Yard) way back when. > > The model is in good shape, missing front and back porch handrails, > and painted for PRR. Runs about like a 1950s-tech engine ususally runs: > fast, with no flywheel. Nice metal gear works, no plastic or nylon, sort > of looks like a high-end clock on the inside. DC engine. > > The underside indicates it was made by "Castor Plastics". I never heard > of these guys, and was wondering if anyone else had..... > I have two new B1 bodies... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5477	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff - Castor

Hi Gerold: Are your B-1 bodies brass or plastic? Any idea who made them? Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5478	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Shakedown Run Video

Except for steam wouldn't Glenn Miller's version of Chatanooga Choo Choo have been more apropriate?  <G> (Although I do like the Monkees too).   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ; all-railroads@yahoogroups.com ; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Shakedown Run Video Hi All, I uploaded a video of mine and my wifes Dreyfus Hudson's, (yes, plural), pulling an HO version of the 20th Century Ltd, also includes footage of my recently aquired  Berkshire, all three are fairly vintage engines, amazing that so many years ago we were told by the "experts" in the hobby that these plastic engines are junk, that they wouldn't last, well lets see, how many of those "experts" are still running their brass engines of the era, some are of course, but these old AHM brutes just keep on going and going and going, just like the Energizer Bunny!!!!!!!!!!!:o) Both of my Hudson's were working engines when I got them, the Berk on the other hand had been sitting around doing nothing for a number of years, it seems that it had electrical issues, which are now somewhat resolved, will still need to add weight to the tender to assure contact. And for Dave F., both of my Hudson's will pull all these passenger cars on level track, which pretty much describes the NYC Water Level route anyway, yesterday I was pulling ten out of the eleven cars, the only reason that the eleventh car wasn't being pulled was because it has a broken coupler...:o) http://youtube.com/watch?v=rz2mq5nOn90 Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5479	From: Tom	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Athearn F7 PRR Shells

Good evening gentleman. Was wondering if anyone has the following. I am looking for a set of Athearn F7A-B-A shells in PRR brunswick green and a PRR Tuscan A-B shells. Must be clean with all the steps. Thanks, Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5480	From: Martin Rosenfeld	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: trimming messages again

On 01:59 pm Ted Walton wrote: > a message that contained page > after page of what appears to be useless format codes. Maybe someone is sending messages in both text and HTML. It is always courteous to limit emails to plain text only. Martin Rosenfeld

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5481	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/21/2008
Subject: Re: Shakedown Run Video

Glenn Miller?  Done that--had a portable layout at a regional NMRA convention--used a PFM Sound System modified by PBL with an 8-track tape drive for the bell, other sounds.  Somebody stuck a music tape in and we had Miller coming form the cab instead of the loco sounds.  8^)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ; all-railroads@yahoogroups.com ; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Shakedown Run Video Except for steam wouldn't Glenn Miller's version of Chatanooga Choo Choo have been more apropriate?  <G> (Although I do like the Monkees too).

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5482	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Old 1950s Stuff - Castor

> > > Are your B-1 bodies brass or plastic? Any idea who made them? Hi Dave, I bought them years ago from a knowledgeable person who told me they were made by Castor, and are dark green plastic. I have not checked if they are marked inside, and dont know where they are stored right now... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5483	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Railroad vehicles

This question transcends all eras from "vintage" to state-of-the-art, but here goes anyway. On another prototype mail list someone asked for a source of fotos of railroad vehicles, vans, sedans, long hauls, pickups, etc. that railroads would have used for maintenance and local use. This got me thinking...I cannot recall in all the layouts I have had and seen ever seeing a railroad vehicle on the layout..after all something must get a repair crew to the site of a broken crossing gate or signal...:) How many here have such vehicles on their layout or recall seeing them on any layout? Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5484	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Shakedown Run Video

Hi Don, I don't have anything from Glenn Miller, don't really care for that style of music either, so Last Train To Clarksville was about as close as it gets.............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; all-railroads@yahoogroups.com; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:14:08 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Shakedown Run Video Except for steam wouldn't Glenn Miller's version of Chatanooga Choo Choo have been more apropriate?  <G> (Although I do like the Monkees too).   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ; all-railroads@ yahoogroups. com ; HOrailroading@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Shakedown Run Video Hi All, I uploaded a video of mine and my wifes Dreyfus Hudson's, (yes, plural), pulling an HO version of the 20th Century Ltd, also includes footage of my recently aquired  Berkshire, all three are fairly vintage engines, amazing that so many years ago we were told by the "experts" in the hobby that these plastic engines are junk, that they wouldn't last, well lets see, how many of those "experts" are still running their brass engines of the era, some are of course, but these old AHM brutes just keep on going and going and going, just like the Energizer Bunny!!!!!!! !!!!:o) Both of my Hudson's were working engines when I got them, the Berk on the other hand had been sitting around doing nothing for a number of years, it seems that it had electrical issues, which are now somewhat resolved, will still need to add weight to the tender to assure contact. And for Dave F., both of my Hudson's will pull all these passenger cars on level track, which pretty much describes the NYC Water Level route anyway, yesterday I was pulling ten out of the eleven cars, the only reason that the eleventh car wasn't being pulled was because it has a broken coupler...:o) http://youtube. com/watch? v=rz2mq5nOn90 Gary W Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5485	From: topstokes	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Railroad vehicles

Yes, there have been both brass and plastic vehicles that were produced to operate on HO rails. However in most cases their light wieght and short wheelbase made operation very erratic. Most ended up as display models somewhere on the layout. As for getting workers to the area of need I "use" what I remember being used when I was a kid. Speeders with trailers. Of course they are static but are interesting additions when the sheds and storage tracks are added to the layout. Topstokes --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: > > This question transcends all eras from "vintage" to state-of-the- art, but > here goes anyway. > > On another prototype mail list someone asked for a source of fotos of > railroad vehicles, vans, sedans, long hauls, pickups, etc. that railroads > would have used for maintenance and local use. > > This got me thinking...I cannot recall in all the layouts I have had and > seen ever seeing a railroad vehicle on the layout..after all something must > get a repair crew to the site of a broken crossing gate or signal...:) > > How many here have such vehicles on their layout or recall seeing them on > any layout? > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5486	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: FS: HObbyLine NKP Type Berkshire

I have a HObbline Berkshire - All plastic, unpowered, Berkshire lettered for Pere Marquette for Sale; good - very good condition. If interested please contact off list. garrettspear at gmail dot com Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5487	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Canadian Cars - Metal MDC

In the discussion of the metal CN car the name of Grant's Hobbies did not surface. Grant's Hobbies was a Hobby Shop in Canada (I do not remember the city) that also manufactured Canadian prototype cars. I have an unassembled passenger car. I think it is a coach. They had a good sized catalog listing their products for the Canadian market. I sold my catalog 45 years ago. If someone could find or look at a Grant's catalog it might provide answers about some unusual cars. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5488	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Railroad vehicles

A "standard" MW truck on the SP in the 40's and 50's was a 1-1/2 ton truck with a body half box van and half stake body. Painted Daylight Orange. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 4:51 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Railroad vehicles > This question transcends all eras from "vintage" to state-of-the-art, but > here goes anyway. > > On another prototype mail list someone asked for a source of fotos of > railroad vehicles, vans, sedans, long hauls, pickups, etc. that railroads > would have used for maintenance and local use. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5489	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Railroad vehicles

I don't think that we're looking for operating Hi-Railers here, but just the appropriate vehicles that were part of the scene. Model Railroad News has a full-page column each month titled "At the Grade Crossing" that discusses scale vehicles appropriate for scenery use. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "topstokes" <topstokes@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 5:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Railroad vehicles > Yes, there have been both brass and plastic vehicles that were > produced to operate on HO rails. However in most cases their light > wieght and short wheelbase made operation very erratic. Most ended up > as display models somewhere on the layout. As for getting workers to > the area of need I "use" what I remember being used when I was a kid. > Speeders with trailers. Of course they are static but are interesting > additions when the sheds and storage tracks are added to the layout. > > Topstokes > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin <

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5490	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

Reading the March RMC there is mention of Amer Flyer HO Tru-Model trains that were marketed by A.C.Gilbert in the prewar 1938-41 period. Sometimes there will be some of this AF stuff on ebay. I myself have never seen these AF trains even at meets. What are the approximate price ranges for these? I did visit a hobby shop in Iowa a few years ago after the Rock Island convention where I purchased an Athearn 'Blue Box' kit. I did notice some AF HO switches that seemed to be HO versions of the AF S-gauge track. Could this have been early AF HO track? Thanks for any future postings on early AF HO!--John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5491	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

I have an AF 4-6-4 hudson that follows a New York Central J1/J3 design. It is alternating current powered, and has a relay in the tender for a reverser unit. The wheels on the locomotive itself are bakelite, and all power pickup is done in the tender. I've been pondering weather a Lionel-Scalecraft 4-6-4 chassis that runs DC current will fit under the boiler. Got the engine as a present last summer, a friend of mine who is 80 gave it to me for preservation. He knew if he gave it to his grandkids, it would end up sold pretty fast. On my system, it has a second chance to run. Other point of interest, the motor is mounted crosswise, with a spur gear transmission. You get a little bit of coasting with it, I understand. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote: > > Reading the March RMC there is mention of Amer Flyer HO Tru-Model > trains that were marketed by A.C.Gilbert in the prewar 1938-41 period. > Sometimes there will be some of this AF stuff on ebay. I myself have > never seen these AF trains even at meets. What are the approximate > price ranges for these? I did visit a hobby shop in Iowa a few years > ago after the Rock Island convention where I purchased an Athearn 'Blue > Box' kit. I did notice some AF HO switches that seemed to be HO > versions of the AF S-gauge track. Could this have been early AF HO > track? Thanks for any future postings on early AF HO!--John >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5492	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

I posted a few photos of my Gilbert Hudson in the photo section under Gilbert Hudson.  Mine has a Pittman DC conversion magnet. I still need to find a tender shell to finish this loco.  Feel free to post other photos of your Gilbert Hudsons in that album. railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: I have an AF 4-6-4 hudson that follows a New York Central J1/J3 design. It is alternating current powered, and has a relay in the tender for a reverser unit. The wheels on the locomotive itself are bakelite, and all power pickup is done in the tender. I've been pondering weather a Lionel-Scalecraft 4-6-4 chassis that runs DC current will fit under the boiler. Got the engine as a present last summer, a friend of mine who is 80 gave it to me for preservation. He knew if he gave it to his grandkids, it would end up sold pretty fast. On my system, it has a second chance to run. Other point of interest, the motor is mounted crosswise, with a spur gear transmission. You get a little bit of coasting with it, I understand. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@. ..> wrote: > > Reading the March RMC there is mention of Amer Flyer HO Tru-Model > trains that were marketed by A.C.Gilbert in the prewar 1938-41 period. > Sometimes there will be some of this AF stuff on ebay. I myself have > never seen these AF trains even at meets. What are the approximate > price ranges for these? I did visit a hobby shop in Iowa a few years > ago after the Rock Island convention where I purchased an Athearn 'Blue > Box' kit. I did notice some AF HO switches that seemed to be HO > versions of the AF S-gauge track. Could this have been early AF HO > track? Thanks for any future postings on early AF HO!--John > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5493	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

Hi: I have an AF HO RPO, but no history on it. It is made of bakelite (I think), is light (jade) green, and lettered in white "New Haven". It is a 60 ft model of what were once called "American Flyer" cars by the railroads (not to be confused with AC Gilbert and AF toys of the era, although AC Gilbert made these in toy/miniature form). I believe B&M and SAL also operated these cars. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5494	From: cnj999	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

The Gilbert's "American Flyer" cars, in both HO and S, were copies of the New Haven latest passenger equipment at the time, shortened appropriately to operate on tight curves (60' car length rather than about 80'). These cars were diecast metal before the war and were first introduced in 1939, I think. The bakelite versions were introduced post war and generally has survived in better condition then the diecast examples. The original "consist", sold as a group, were a full baggage, an RPO, a combine and a coach. I'm not exact sure just when they were discontinued. CNJ999 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > Hi: > > I have an AF HO RPO, but no history on it. It is made of bakelite (I think), > is light (jade) green, and lettered in white "New Haven". It is a 60 ft > model of what were once called "American Flyer" cars by the railroads > (not to be confused with AC Gilbert and AF toys of the era, although > AC Gilbert made these in toy/miniature form). > > I believe B&M and SAL also operated these cars. > > Dave F > > > > ************** > Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. > > (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel- campos-duffy/ > 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5495	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Railroad vehicles

Attachments : ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 6:51 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Railroad vehicles > This question transcends all eras from "vintage" to state-of-the-art, but > here goes anyway. > > On another prototype mail list someone asked for a source of fotos of > railroad vehicles, vans, sedans, long hauls, pickups, etc. that railroads > would have used for maintenance and local use. > > This got me thinking...I cannot recall in all the layouts I have had and > seen ever seeing a railroad vehicle on the layout..after all something > must > get a repair crew to the site of a broken crossing gate or signal...:) > > How many here have such vehicles on their layout or recall seeing them on > any layout? > Ray Hobin See attached Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5496	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

The Lionel OO loco will be about 10-15% larger.  If what you want to do is run it on your HO layout, a bridge rectifier can be installed  to keep the field coil constant polarity.  If you have an old copy of Westcott's "How to Wire . . ." the circuit is in there--this was a common thing in O Scale.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Marinaccio To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41 I posted a few photos of my Gilbert Hudson in the photo section under Gilbert Hudson.  Mine has a Pittman DC conversion magnet. I still need to find a tender shell to finish this loco.  Feel free to post other photos of your Gilbert Hudsons in that album. railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: I have an AF 4-6-4 hudson that follows a New York Central J1/J3 design. It is alternating current powered, and has a relay in the tender for a reverser unit. The wheels on the locomotive itself are bakelite, and all power pickup is done in the tender. I've been pondering weather a Lionel-Scalecraft 4-6-4 chassis that runs DC current will fit under the boiler. Got the engine as a present last summer, a friend of mine who is 80 gave it to me for preservation. He knew if he gave it to his grandkids, it would end up sold pretty fast. On my system, it has a second chance to run. Other point of interest, the motor is mounted crosswise, with a spur gear transmission. You get a little bit of coasting with it, I understand. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@. ..> wrote: > > Reading the March RMC there is mention of Amer Flyer HO Tru-Model > trains that were marketed by A.C.Gilbert in the prewar 1938-41 period. > Sometimes there will be some of this AF stuff on ebay. I myself have > never seen these AF trains even at meets. What are the approximate > price ranges for these? I did visit a hobby shop in Iowa a few years > ago after the Rock Island convention where I purchased an Athearn 'Blue > Box' kit. I did notice some AF HO switches that seemed to be HO > versions of the AF S-gauge track. Could this have been early AF HO > track? Thanks for any future postings on early AF HO!--John > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5497	From: curmudgeon	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

I have one of those. Mine is die-cast, says AC Gilbert in one of the ends. I know it's die-cast as I had to glass-bead it and fill the corrosion/erosion in the roof, then repainted it. Like a Harriman roof? Dave > Hi: > > I have an AF HO RPO, but no history on it. It is made of bakelite (I think), > is light (jade) green, and lettered in white "New Haven". It is a 60 ft > model of what were once called "American Flyer" cars by the railroads > (not to be confused with AC Gilbert and AF toys of the era, although > AC Gilbert made these in toy/miniature form). > > I believe B&M and SAL also operated these cars. > > Dave F > > > > ************** > Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. > > (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel- campos-duffy/ > 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5498	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/22/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

HI CNJ999: Thanks for the note regarding the AF bakelite cars. I've seen them show up every now and then at train shows. B&M versions were common, but the NH ones were rare I think. The B&M ones were red; NH green. Not sure if they were ever made in other road names. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5499	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "cnj999" <jbortle@...> wrote: > ....The original "consist", sold as a group, were a > full baggage, an RPO, a combine and a coach. I'm not exact sure just > when they were discontinued. > > CNJ999 I am the first and only owner, since Christmas of 1949, of Gilbert Amreican Flyer Tru-Model passenger train set HO-140 in which are an RPO #133 and 2 coaches both numbered 135, green bakelite or plastic, New Haven. I don't recall ever having seen a full baggage or a combine, or lettering/coloring for any road other than the New Haven. I am sure that if I had, I would have wanted them. Of course, I am talking HO, not S. If anyone has any Post-war Gilbert HO passenger cars originally colored and/or marked for any other road, or any full baggage or combine, Please post some photos. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5500	From: Graeme	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Tri-ang and Trix

Guys, good evening from Scotland! There have been a couple of threads recently, regarding British/European makers, particularly Tri-ang and Trix. There were three Trix systems - Trix International, British Trix and Trix Express. The one with which I am most familiar is British Trix, which started (in 1935) as 14v AC, then switched to 12v DC, in 1956. The original system was called Trix Twin, and ran on three rail HO gauge track, all three rails being isolated. The centre rail was the common return, and two locos could run on the same track, with their collector shoes on opposite sides - one picking up current from one outer rail, the other collecting current through the other outer rail. Very clever. Wheels were extremely course scale, but the track was HO gauge. Two rail was introduced in 1967, although three rail was available until the company ceased production in 1972. Some of the Trix moulds were in use by other manufactures until fairly recently. There are two sites particularly recommended to anyone with an interest in Trix : http://www.ttrca.co.uk/ http://www.trix.co.uk/ We mentioned Tri-ang recently. Tri-ang were slightly unusual in that they advertised their railways as OO/HO, so the scale was variable at best. British OO is 1/76, or 4mm to the foot, whereas HO is 3.5mm to the foot, or 1/87. Tri-ang made a range of British and American outline models, and they were all about the same size, and all ran on 16.5mm track, i.e. HO. It is important to note that British OO models are designed to run on HO track, even though it is several millimetres too narrow. It should be just over 18mm, not 16.5mm. Don't ask why! More about Tri-ang : http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/ http://www.tri-ang.com/ Congratulations if you are still reading - I'll get to the point, soon. There was a large department store in London, called Gamages, and they not only had a huge toy department complete with large operating model railway, but they also produced a catalog each year, dedicated to models. Usually well over a hundred pages, full of toys for boys, including trains, slot cars, chemistry sets, construction sets, plastic kits etc. I have every copy from 1953 to 1965, and have never seen any others. The complete catalog for 1963 is now available here : http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/gamages/index.html The file is 23MB, so fairly large. The 1963 catalog includes many pages dedicated to both Tri-ang and Trix, which may be of interest. Earlier catalogs features 0 gauge from Lionel and Marx! Cheers, -- Graeme Eldred http://www.binnsroad.co.uk

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5501	From: Graeme	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

In message <fppt6g+pk4d@...>, Walter J. Bayer II <bayerw@...> writes >I am the first and only owner, since Christmas of 1949, of Gilbert >Amreican Flyer Tru-Model passenger train set HO-140 in which are an >RPO #133 and 2 coaches both numbered 135, green bakelite or plastic, >New Haven. I don't recall ever having seen a full baggage or a >combine, or lettering/coloring for any road other than the New Haven. >I am sure that if I had, I would have wanted them. Of course, I am >talking HO, not S. Walter, you may be interested in this site : http://www.myflyertrains.org The site includes scans of complete Flyer catalogs from 1938 to 1967, and, on page 39 of the 1949 catalog, is what could be your set! Page 56 of the 1950 catalog clearly shows the passenger cars lettered for New Haven. -- Graeme Eldred http://www.binnsroad.co.uk

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5502	From: Graeme	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Shakedown Run Video

In message <766515.69035.qm@...>, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> writes >http://youtube.com/watch?v=rz2mq5nOn90 Thanks Gary - I really enjoyed that, although my knowledge of vintage US HO is non existent, which is why I rarely have anything to contribute to the group :-( For a view of vintage British 00, try this : http://youtube.com/watch?v=Knl-iIJEC2s&feature=related One of a series of films by Ron Dodd who has built a superb double deck layout using Hornby Dublo, which was made from 1938 to 1964. The vast majority of the stock is die cast or tinplate. The track system is three rail, 12v DC. Cheers, -- Graeme Eldred http://www.binnsroad.co.uk

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5503	From: cnj999	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

Ooops! You caught me on that one, Walt. My mind had slipped out of gear and I was recalling the diecast PennLine passenger cars. You are correct, the orginal AF HO New Haven passenger car sets (both diecast and bakelite) were baggage-mail, Coach, Coach. I actually have a couple of sets packed away in the train room and had to check just to be sure. However..I would noted that right after the war, Gilbert offer their "S" scale version of this passenger car set with a full baggage, instead of the original baggage-mail car. As far as road names are concerned, I can only find reference to these HO cars being labled as New Haven. CNJ999 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "cnj999" <jbortle@> wrote: > > ....The original "consist", sold as a group, were a > > full baggage, an RPO, a combine and a coach. I'm not exact sure just > > when they were discontinued. > > > > CNJ999 > > I am the first and only owner, since Christmas of 1949, of Gilbert > Amreican Flyer Tru-Model passenger train set HO-140 in which are an > RPO #133 and 2 coaches both numbered 135, green bakelite or plastic, > New Haven. I don't recall ever having seen a full baggage or a > combine, or lettering/coloring for any road other than the New Haven. > I am sure that if I had, I would have wanted them. Of course, I am > talking HO, not S. If anyone has any Post-war Gilbert HO passenger > cars originally colored and/or marked for any other road, or any full > baggage or combine, Please post some photos. > Walter >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5504	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Graeme <groups@...> wrote: > > Walter, you may be interested in this site : > > http://www.myflyertrains.org > > The site includes scans of complete Flyer catalogs from 1938 to 1967, > and, on page 39 of the 1949 catalog, is what could be your set! > > Page 56 of the 1950 catalog clearly shows the passenger cars lettered > for New Haven. > > -- > Graeme Eldred > http://www.binnsroad.co.uk Yes, and thank you. It brings back memories! My parents gave me both the freight and the passenger sets (looks like I have the box covers mixed up), and the Rectiformer too. Over the next few years, my Christmas list consisted in the rest of the freight cars, the switcher, track, and some accessories. Regrettably, most of the accessories (except the Mystic Station) were the S gauge accessories. Walt

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5505	From: holat88	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Wanted, Varney truck part

Hey Gang, Im needing a part for a Varney F-3 power truck. Its listed on the Varney assembly instruction sheet 2060-K as a bearing plate and has a part number; 1655. I have posted a photo of the broken part and would appreciate any help to get this kit up and running. Happy to purchase outright or trade for. Thanks, Howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5506	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/23/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted, Varney truck part

Howard: I have two (2) of them, with motor attached. They have no part numbers under them, but there are Patent Numbers as follows: 2739541 and 2708888 VARNEY Check and see if these match yours (under the truck)). These are for the Varney F-3, most likely the plastic one. I have no parts diagrams or part numbers for Varney, hence the Patent Numbers. These are EMD F unit trucks with brass wheels. If so, you can have them; just send me your mailing address. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5507	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Tri-ang and Trix

Graeme, Thanks for the posts.  I have enjoyed looking at the different items.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Graeme Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 3:37 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Tri-ang and Trix   Guys, good evening from Scotland ! There have been a couple of threads recently, regarding British/European makers, particularly Tri-ang and Trix. There were three Trix systems - Trix International, British Trix and Trix Express. The one with which I am most familiar is British Trix, which started (in 1935) as 14v AC, then switched to 12v DC, in 1956. The original system was called Trix Twin, and ran on three rail HO gauge track, all three rails being isolated. The centre rail was the common return, and two locos could run on the same track, with their collector shoes on opposite sides - one picking up current from one outer rail, the other collecting current through the other outer rail. Very clever. Wheels were extremely course scale, but the track was HO gauge. Two rail was introduced in 1967, although three rail was available until the company ceased production in 1972. Some of the Trix moulds were in use by other manufactures until fairly recently. There are two sites particularly recommended to anyone with an interest in Trix : http://www.ttrca. co.uk/ http://www.trix. co.uk/ We mentioned Tri-ang recently. Tri-ang were slightly unusual in that they advertised their railways as OO/HO, so the scale was variable at best. British OO is 1/76, or 4mm to the foot, whereas HO is 3.5mm to the foot, or 1/87. Tri-ang made a range of British and American outline models, and they were all about the same size, and all ran on 16.5mm track, i.e. HO. It is important to note that British OO models are designed to run on HO track, even though it is several millimetres too narrow. It should be just over 18mm, not 16.5mm. Don't ask why! More about Tri-ang : http://www.tri- ang.co.uk/ http://www.tri- ang.com/ Congratulations if you are still reading - I'll get to the point, soon. There was a large department store in London, called Gamages, and they not only had a huge toy department complete with large operating model railway, but they also produced a catalog each year, dedicated to models. Usually well over a hundred pages, full of toys for boys, including trains, slot cars, chemistry sets, construction sets, plastic kits etc. I have every copy from 1953 to 1965, and have never seen any others. The complete catalog for 1963 is now available here : http://www.binnsroa d.co.uk/railways /gamages/ index.html The file is 23MB, so fairly large. The 1963 catalog includes many pages dedicated to both Tri-ang and Trix, which may be of interest. Earlier catalogs features 0 gauge from Lionel and Marx! Cheers, -- Graeme Eldred http://www.binnsroa d.co.uk

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5508	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

Thanks for the recent discussion about Amer Flyer HO 1938-41! The rrs that operated the 'American Flyer' cars were: New Haven, Boston & Maine, Seaboard, Kansas City Southern, and Bangor & Aroostook. Some of the B&M cars were later sold to the LIRR. These cars were manufacured at the Osgood-Bradley plant of Pullman-Std at Worcester, Mass about 1935-1938. The Bangor & Aroostook fleet was most unique. The B&A had 3 coach-dinette cars, 2 coaches, and 4 RPO-baggage cars. No other rr had these 'Amer Flyer' RPO-baggage cars.--John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5509	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

Hi John: Does anyone make HW era Osgood-Bradley cars in HO these days. For a time Bethlehem Car Works did I think, but only in kit form. Thanks, Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5510	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

Attachments : WK2SHR@... wrote: Hi John: Does anyone make HW era Osgood-Bradley cars in HO these days. For a time Bethlehem Car Works did I think, but only in kit form. Dave, E&B Valley sold those kits.  I have  a factory painted and lettered SP car in TTG , and painted a second one in the General Service Scheme. Pic attached  However those kits are not a 100% match for the SP cars, as these were ex T&NO cars with an unique floor plan/ window arrangement due to segregation laws.    E&B sold them in B&M, NH Forest Green + Hunter Green + Secony Red, B&O Grey + Blue, SP Light Gray + TTG paint. They show up quite often at eBay, many of them in the "Colonel Carstens" livery. Trucks are junk but CVs are a perfect match. BTW; I guess E&B became Eastern Car Works later ... has anybody details of this ? Sold, or only renamed? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5511	From: Glenn476	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

Somebody had a kit out for these cars in HO back about 20 years ago--RMC used it as one of their "Col. Carstens Traveling RR Show" anniversary series. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 8:31 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41 > Thanks for the recent discussion about Amer Flyer HO 1938-41! The rrs > that operated the 'American Flyer' cars were: New Haven, Boston & > Maine, Seaboard, Kansas City Southern, and Bangor & Aroostook. Some of > the B&M cars were later sold to the LIRR. These cars were manufacured > at the Osgood-Bradley plant of Pullman-Std at Worcester, Mass about > 1935-1938. The Bangor & Aroostook fleet was most unique. The B&A had 3 > coach-dinette cars, 2 coaches, and 4 RPO-baggage cars. No other rr had > these 'Amer Flyer' RPO-baggage cars.--John > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5512	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

E&B Valley / Eastern Car Works had the coach back in the 70's and 80's.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41 Hi John: Does anyone make HW era Osgood-Bradley cars in HO these days. For a time Bethlehem Car Works did I think, but only in kit form. Thanks, Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5513	From: Walter	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

By the way, I hope the person who started this thread took a look at that website. It has catalogs reproduced on line, including 1938, 1939, 1940 and 1941. It then jumps to 1944, and from there to 1946. Again, the website is, http://www.myflyertrains.org Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5514	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

I looked at and made up a spread sheet for the HO cars and engines. Nice site. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Walter Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 7:03 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41   By the way, I hope the person who started this thread took a look at that website. It has catalogs reproduced on line, including 1938, 1939, 1940 and 1941. It then jumps to 1944, and from there to 1946. Again, the website is, http://www.myflyert rains.org. Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5515	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter" <bayerw@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 6:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41 > By the way, I hope the person who started this thread took a look at that > website. It has catalogs reproduced on line, including 1938, 1939, 1940 > and > 1941. It then jumps to 1944, and from there to 1946. > > Again, the website is, http://www.myflyertrains.org > > Regards, > Walter There's a chance there may not have even BEEN catalogs for '42 and '43. Remember a lot of "non essential" items weren't even manufactured during the War years. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5516	From: Dale Smith	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41

That is a really excellent site, run by Chuck Harrington.  He went through quite a bit of work to obtain and scan all the catalogs.  I contributed a couple of catalogs to the project.   It is an invaluable resource.  Don is correct about 42-45 catalogs being non-existent.  If you will look carefully the 1944 "catalog" on the site is a pamphlet on prototype trains designed most likely to keep the interest in trains alive.   One other resource worth mention on A.C. Gilbert/American Flyer HO is "Gilbert American Flyer HO - 1938-1963" by Gary Klein.  I have a copy of the second edition on CD ROM, but it is, or at least was, available in printed form or CD.  I have seen the hard cover book, which as I recall had Black and White illustrations.  My CD has color illustrations.  I got my copy at Mark Preman's www.Americanflyertrains.com website, but he has since sold the site and the book appears not to be available, only "HO instructions" by the same author.  If there are any questions which can't be answered by the catalogs, I will be glad to try and find an answer in Mr. Klein's book.   Dale Smith   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter" <bayerw@comcast. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 6:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Amer Flyer HO 1938-41 > By the way, I hope the person who started this thread took a look at that > website. It has catalogs reproduced on line, including 1938, 1939, 1940 > and > 1941. It then jumps to 1944, and from there to 1946. > > Again, the website is, http://www.myflyert rains.org. > > Regards, > Walter There's a chance there may not have even BEEN catalogs for '42 and '43. Remember a lot of "non essential" items weren't even manufactured during the War years. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5517	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Vintage Power Packs Redux

I got an interesting goodie for my Marnopower. It's an add-on throttle. Never had one of these when I was a kid. We did run two tracks (not connected) with the Marn via a "cigar box pack" my dad built, which was a rheostat and reversing switch in a cigar box, that ran off the fixed DC output terminals on the Marnopower. If you had a train running on the main throttle, if you started up a train on the cigar box you could see the other one slow down. You couldn't use common rail for this setup because both outputs were hooked to the same transformer. Anyway this thing looks like a "half Marnopower". The throttle and reversing switch are identical, and the cabinet is the same depth and height but only half as wide and has no vent holes. I hooked it up to my mint Marnopower and it works great. It has an additional switch however labeled "load compensator". I have never seen anything like it. It's labeled "LITE MED. HVY." Anybody know what it does? http://www.gp30.com/life/marnopower.jpg Also, here is a group shot of three of the four International Niagaras I've ever come across: http://www.gp30.com/life/marnopower.jpg The only reason the 4th isn't here is because I missed the closing bidding. On the left is my dad's, which he built around the time I was born or slightly before - overlapping the time when #6015 - the last Niagara in steam - made its last run. Yes, that is a UP tender. Dad was stubborn about some things, and he thought the NYC tender International offered was "cheap" and the Kemtron UP tender was a much better model. So guess what. Dad's Niagara was modified with a new open gearbox and the springing removed from the drivers circa 1965, a local brass blacksmith by the name of Delbert Berry did the makeover. It turns over but the main crank will not stay on it. I've soldered it dozens of times. One of these days I'll strip it and see if I can get it to hold. Also the center flanges have been removed. The middle Niagara I bought at a show in 1994 or 95. It runs but I can see why Del removed the springs - as the loco sinks under its own weight, the binding on the drivers increases quite a bit. Just running it a few minutes got the motor blistering hot. The one on the right I picked up on ebay just recently. It is in the best shape of them but really still has the same running issues. I would like it to be operational but I may have to compromise a bit and maybe limit the spring travel. The springs are very soft and the travel of the individual drivers is such that you can see the rods going out of quarter when you push down on it. This one has also had some piping detail added, which I don't think was part of the original model. The recent RMC article on International barely mentioned the Niagara; I thought it had been a solder-together kit but the article says it was a "screwdriver kit". There are enough variations and slop in the assembly and soldering, I don't know what to believe. As Niagara models go, these are not among the best... nor are they quite the first. But they are my sentimental favorite. I'm pretty sure that the United Niagara was available slightly before this, and it's quite a bit better. It also evolved, the earliest Uniteds had solid frames and the later ones were sprung. I have a solid frame United. It runs hot but I imagine with a new motor and cleaning up, it will be just fine. Won't be getting DCC though, strictly vintage. I also have a Key 1982 brass Niagara - never painted, and an LMB that I stripped and painted but it's not finished. That one will probably get a new motor and DCC. And I have three BLI Niagaras which actually aren't bad. Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5518	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux

Here is the correct link for the three Niagaras: http://www.gp30.com/life/InternationalNiagaras.jpg And a close-up of the nicest one: http://www.gp30.com/life/NiagaraUpClose.jpg Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5519	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/24/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux

----- Original Message ----- From: "greendoddz" <greendoddz@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 10:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Power Packs Redux >I got an interesting goodie for my Marnopower. It's an add-on > throttle. Never had one of these when I was a kid. We did run two > tracks (not connected) with the Marn via a "cigar box pack" my dad > built, which was a rheostat and reversing switch in a cigar box, that > ran off the fixed DC output terminals on the Marnopower. If you had a > train running on the main throttle, if you started up a train on the > cigar box you could see the other one slow down. You couldn't use > common rail for this setup because both outputs were hooked to the > same transformer. > > Anyway this thing looks like a "half Marnopower". The throttle and > reversing switch are identical, and the cabinet is the same depth and > height but only half as wide and has no vent holes. I hooked it up to > my mint Marnopower and it works great. > > It has an additional switch however labeled "load compensator". I > have never seen anything like it. It's labeled "LITE MED. HVY." > Anybody know what it does? > > http://www.gp30.com/life/marnopower.jpg The :"load compensator" switched more resistance into the circuit in series with the rheostat to allow for differences in the current draw of various motors. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5520	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: The Weekly Withlacoochee River Report

Hi Ya'll, Time again for the Weekly Withlacoochee River Report, didn't have much time to do much on the railroad this week, unfortunately we had to get ready for a visit of our red headed step child at work, (the big boss was coming to our club), so I had to bust @$$ to get things put together there, so wasn't much done on the railroad, however, did get to setting up for installation of the roundhouse and turntable, what I'm trying to work out now is the approach to such. I have two options, I can set it up where I would foul yard operations by making every locomotive headed for the roundhouse go into the yard, and take a roundhouse lead from there, or create another lead coming off the low line, which would be more direct, watch the video and let me know which is best, I already suspect that coming directly off the low line would be a better idea...:o) http://youtube.com/watch?v=vj8goWvv3GI Gary W Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5521	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: The Weekly Withlacoochee River Report

Gary Woodard wrote: > > I have two options, I can set it up where I would foul yard operations > by making every locomotive headed for the roundhouse go into the yard, > and take a roundhouse lead from there, or create another lead coming off > the low line, which would be more direct, watch the video and let me > know which is best, I already suspect that coming directly off the low > line would be a better idea...:o) > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=vj8goWvv3GI Why not do both? A single track in and out of the roundhouse area will create an operational bottleneck, while a pair of track provides more options. I doubt you'd find many larger prototypes with only a single line to and from the turntable, only a small branchline operation, which your layout does not appear to be. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ If not for the misfortune of others, life would be unbearable.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5522	From: Neal Rammacher	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: The Weekly Withlacoochee River Report

Along one of the tracks you could have a service area   neal and the gang ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Jones To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Weekly Withlacoochee River Report Gary Woodard wrote: > > I have two options, I can set it up where I would foul yard operations > by making every locomotive headed for the roundhouse go into the yard, > and take a roundhouse lead from there, or create another lead coming off > the low line, which would be more direct, watch the video and let me > know which is best, I already suspect that coming directly off the low > line would be a better idea...:o) > > http://youtube. com/watch? v=vj8goWvv3GI Why not do both? A single track in and out of the roundhouse area will create an operational bottleneck, while a pair of track provides more options. I doubt you'd find many larger prototypes with only a single line to and from the turntable, only a small branchline operation, which your layout does not appear to be. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocitie s.com/seventysix inchesoffun/ If not for the misfortune of others, life would be unbearable.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5523	From: Jay Matz	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Ambroid kits

I had a site that listed all the Ambroid kits, kept it in my bookmarks. Today I went there when it opened it wasn't Ambroid anymore. Does anyone know what happened, where it went. Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5524	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid kits

Jay..... Try this link....... http://www.trainweb.org/ambroidkits/ Glen Thomas cctrains.com --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Matz" <dlw455@...> wrote: > > I had a site that listed all the Ambroid kits, kept it in my bookmarks. > Today I went there when it opened it wasn't Ambroid anymore. > Does anyone know what happened, where it went. > > Jay >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5525	From: jay matz	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid kits

Glen Thank you That is it. Jay Glen Thomas <gthomas2@...> wrote: Jay..... Try this link....... http://www.trainweb .org/ambroidkits / Glen Thomas cctrains.com --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jay Matz" <dlw455@...> wrote: > > I had a site that listed all the Ambroid kits, kept it in my bookmarks. > Today I went there when it opened it wasn't Ambroid anymore. > Does anyone know what happened, where it went. > > Jay > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5526	From: Mark Mathu	Date: 2/25/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question

> The reporting number (#9353) you offer is a great starting > point as most often the numbers used on these cars' sides were > used by a particular manufacturer only, usually with different > numbers being used by different manufacturers. As it turns out > -- Red Ball DID produce a Green Bay & Western W.R.X. 9353 car > (with "arched lettering,") as per both their Catalog #10 and > Catalog #11; a 41' grey colored car ("built 1929"), kit #118. > So, it looks like the mystery is solved. Always fun playing > sleuth, especially when we can come up with an answer. Thanks. It *is* fun, especially when we get an answer. The use of WRX #9353 has always been an enigma, because that number was used on three different WRX models which I'm aware of: Red Ball http://www.greenbayroute.com/model032large.jpg Comet http://www.greenbayroute.com/model046large.jpg Branchline Trains #1211 (a modern plastic model) http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/reefers/bra_1211.jpg Your information has me wondering if the model(s) described as "Comet" (the info came from eBay auction listings I've seen) is actually incorrect, and these so-called "Comet" cars were actually Red Ball. Incidentally, I've seen the Red Ball WRX reefer referred to as catalog #R4... did they change their catalog numbers at some point? ____ Mark Mathu Whitefish Bay, Wis.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5527	From: Charles	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Castor Plastics

Hello Group I am retired so I have time for my favorite past time Model Railroads What ever happened to Castor Plastics and Ambroid Any answers please let me know Charles

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5528	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics

I believe Castor dissapeared long ago, I have a picture of mine in my picture album RA pix.  Ambroid appears to be available  http://www.ambroid.com/Ambroid.html.   Roger Aultman           ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 6:31 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Hello Group I am retired so I have time for my favorite past time Model Railroads What ever happened to Castor Plastics and Ambroid Any answers please let me know Charles

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5529	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question

Attachments : I have a Accurail reefer #9308 that has the arched lettering, not sure if this was a special run or regulat production. Roger Aultman ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Mathu To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:59 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: WRX Reefer Question > The reporting number (#9353) you offer is a great starting > point as most often the numbers used on these cars' sides were > used by a particular manufacturer only, usually with different > numbers being used by different manufacturers. As it turns out > -- Red Ball DID produce a Green Bay & Western W.R.X. 9353 car > (with "arched lettering,") as per both their Catalog #10 and > Catalog #11; a 41' grey colored car ("built 1929"), kit #118. > So, it looks like the mystery is solved. Always fun playing > sleuth, especially when we can come up with an answer.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5530	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > I believe Castor dissapeared long ago, I have a picture of mine in my picture album RA pix. Ambroid appears to be available http://www.ambroid.com/Ambroid.html. Roger Aultman > > > Hmmmmmm - It would appear that Ambroid stuck with their glue business.   John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5531	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: E P ALEXANDER

Attachments : A while back there was speculation if Ed Alexander had made H-O models. Attached are pictures of a casting for a Alco U25B made for Alco Locomtive for use as promo's.  The story was Alexander made completed models and sold off the unused castings.   It appears that a Hobbytown chassis could be adapted to this casting.  Also attached a scan of  his endorsement of the check dated December 1967.   Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5532	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: E P ALEXANDER

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > A while back there was speculation if Ed Alexander had made H-O models. > Attached are pictures of a casting for a Alco U25B made for Alco Locomtive for use as promo's. The story was Alexander made completed models and sold off the unused castings. It appears that a Hobbytown chassis could be adapted to this casting. Also attached a scan of his endorsement of the check dated December 1967. Roger Aultman > Geez, Roger (or should that be G-E Roger). What's this? An "ALCO" U25B? I always think of you as to HO models the way I think of Stan Mailer as to the GBW. Then you do this? Just meant in jest. We all have crs attacks. I certainly have my share. Interesting, but I'd hate to have to be the one to smooth that casting out. Be interesting to see a finished model. Probably only slightly easier to find than hens teeth. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5533	From: erieberk	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question

Mark, Your post prompted me to dig out my Comet Collection. I now see why you state WRX #9353 is an enigma. Comet DID also use #9353 for their WRX Green Bay Reefer. I can't vouch for Branchline though - - I have none. as for the Red Ball WRX reefer catalog number, the catalog number #118 that I gave is actually the Car Side Set number, which I realized about 10 minutes after posting when I was putting the catalogs back on the shelf. I thought it too minor to go back and repost again for an error that small -- my bad! I probably don't need to tell you, but Red Ball also sold the car sides separately from the kits. Ray Wetzel > > > The reporting number (#9353) you offer is a great starting > > point as most often the numbers used on these cars' sides were > > used by a particular manufacturer only, usually with different > > numbers being used by different manufacturers. As it turns out > > -- Red Ball DID produce a Green Bay & Western W.R.X. 9353 car > > (with "arched lettering,") as per both their Catalog #10 and > > Catalog #11; a 41' grey colored car ("built 1929"), kit #118. > > So, it looks like the mystery is solved. Always fun playing > > sleuth, especially when we can come up with an answer. > > > Thanks. It *is* fun, especially when we get an answer. > > The use of WRX #9353 has always been an enigma, because that number > was used on three different WRX models which I'm aware of: > > Red Ball > http://www.greenbayroute.com/model032large.jpg > > Comet > http://www.greenbayroute.com/model046large.jpg > > Branchline Trains #1211 (a modern plastic model) > http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/reefers/bra_1211.jpg > > Your information has me wondering if the model(s) described as "Comet" > (the info came from eBay auction listings I've seen) is actually > incorrect, and these so-called "Comet" cars were actually Red Ball. > > Incidentally, I've seen the Red Ball WRX reefer referred to as catalog > #R4... did they change their catalog numbers at some point? > > ____ > Mark Mathu > Whitefish Bay, Wis. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5534	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > The :"load compensator" switched more resistance into the circuit in series > with the rheostat to allow for differences in the current draw of various > motors. Interesting. So if you had a lower-draw motor, you could pre-load the throttle so it wouldn't just run away? I remember having some early can motor (Canon) brass in the 70s that would trundle along at about 15 mph with the Marn throttle all the way in the down position. Don't think I ever saw anything like that in the rheostat era... I guess this makes the add-on throttle newer than the Marnopower base unit. Can't really tell much running Niagaras upside down in the cradle with alligator clips, but if I ever get it hooked up to a loop of track I can try it out. I'd really love to get hold of an old Marnold catalog and see what all they made. The oldest Walthers catalog I have is probably from 1977 or 78, and they listed the Marnold panel components (this was well after Walthers bought the company) but I've never seen an original catalog from the 50s. The Marnopower does seem to have been popular based on how frequently they show up on ebay in well-used condition, and few other Marnold components ever show up at all. Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5535	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics

----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" <chassweit@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 6:31 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics > Hello Group > I am retired so I have time for my favorite past time Model Railroads > > What ever happened to Castor Plastics and Ambroid > > Any answers please let me know > Charles Ambroid pretty much stopped marketing kits around 1980 as I recall, the kits themselves were actually manufactured by Northeastern, who continued to sell them for some time, in fact re-issuing every single one of the "1 of 5000" kits. Some of the last of the "Heritage" series were later reissued by Quality Craft/ Gloor Craft (who may still be around, I'm not sure). The problem is, "modellers" these days aren't buying the good wood kits anymore, (except us old pharts, I just the other day built my second "Heritage" series Milwaukee Road 50' rib side auto car, got it from a guy in Chicago who felt he was getting too old and blind to build it. I'm getting old and blind myself, but I don't want to give up <G>). Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5536	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux

----- Original Message ----- From: "greendoddz" <greendoddz@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 4:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: >> The :"load compensator" switched more resistance into the circuit in > series >> with the rheostat to allow for differences in the current draw of > various >> motors. > > Interesting. So if you had a lower-draw motor, you could pre-load the > throttle so it wouldn't just run away? I remember having some early > can motor (Canon) brass in the 70s that would trundle along at about > 15 mph with the Marn throttle all the way in the down position. Don't > think I ever saw anything like that in the rheostat era... I guess > this makes the add-on throttle newer than the Marnopower base unit. > Can't really tell much running Niagaras upside down in the cradle with > alligator clips, but if I ever get it hooked up to a loop of track I > can try it out. > > I'd really love to get hold of an old Marnold catalog and see what all > they made. The oldest Walthers catalog I have is probably from 1977 > or 78, and they listed the Marnold panel components (this was well > after Walthers bought the company) but I've never seen an original > catalog from the 50s. The Marnopower does seem to have been popular > based on how frequently they show up on ebay in well-used condition, > and few other Marnold components ever show up at all. > > Andy The oldest catalog I have is 1969, although there's a page dated 1963 explaining the "changes made since Walthers bought the line in 1962". I could scan you copies if you'd like. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5537	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: E P ALEXANDER

----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 3:52 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: E P ALEXANDER --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > A while back there was speculation if Ed Alexander had made H-O models. > Attached are pictures of a casting for a Alco U25B made for Alco Locomtive for use as promo's. Roger Aultman > Geez, Roger (or should that be G-E Roger). What's this? An "ALCO" U25B? I always think of you as to HO models the way I think of Stan Mailer as to the GBW. Then you do this? Just meant in jest. We all have crs attacks. I certainly have my share. I really blew that one, the way it goes when you get old. Roger

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5538	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics

Please do post photos of that Milwaukee car.  I have one and plan to build it in the next year or so, when I have finished some other projects I am working on.  I always thought that was a unique car, full of character. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: don.dellmann@... Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:03:54 -0600 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" <chassweit@verizon. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 6:31 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics > Hello Group > I am retired so I have time for my favorite past time Model Railroads > > What ever happened to Castor Plastics and Ambroid > > Any answers please let me know > Charles Ambroid pretty much stopped marketing kits around 1980 as I recall, the kits themselves were actually manufactured by Northeastern, who continued to sell them for some time, in fact re-issuing every single one of the "1 of 5000" kits. Some of the last of the "Heritage" series were later reissued by Quality Craft/ Gloor Craft (who may still be around, I'm not sure). The problem is, "modellers" these days aren't buying the good wood kits anymore, (except us old pharts, I just the other day built my second "Heritage" series Milwaukee Road 50' rib side auto car, got it from a guy in Chicago who felt he was getting too old and blind to build it. I'm getting old and blind myself, but I don't want to give up <G>). Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". Check it out.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5539	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Power Packs Redux

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > I could scan you copies if you'd like. Sure, that would be cool. It's nice to have some documentation on stuff like this. Oh yeah, I also have the original box for one of my Marnopower units, and also for the add-on throttle. Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5540	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics

The new one, and a repaint of my first one, are both on the group home page, in my photo album "zdon dellmann's stuff/Ambroid", or, for at least the next few days, click on "new photos" right from the home page.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Victor Bitleris To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:15 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Please do post photos of that Milwaukee car.  I have one and plan to build it in the next year or so, when I have finished some other projects I am working on.  I always thought that was a unique car, full of character. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5541	From: Mark Mathu	Date: 2/26/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question

Roger Aultman wrote: > I have a Accurail reefer #9308 that has the arched lettering, not > sure if this was a special run or regulat production. Accurail WRX #9308 was/is a regular production car, a little modern for the general discussion on this list. Here's a list of the GB&W/KGB&W/WRX/A&W (collectively known as the Green Bay Route) models which I'm aware of: http://www.greenbayroute.com/modellist.htm Comments on the list are very much welcome!!! ____ Mark Mathu Whitefish Bay, Wis.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5542	From: Mark Mathu	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question

Ray Wetzel wrote: > I probably don't need to tell you, but Red Ball also sold the car > sides separately from the kits. Actually, you do need to tell me... I have to admit I've never built a "vintage" craftsman-type wood model; I got into the hobby in HO scale in the 1970s, when plastic was the norm. Thank you for the information, I didn't know that the car sides were also sold separately (although that makes sense, I guess). ____ Mark Mathu Whitefish Bay, Wis.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5543	From: erieberk	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: WRX Reefer Question

Getting back to you again on this Mark, there is more to the story which I overlooked at first, until checking out all my Red Ball catalogs a little more thoroughly. As per my Red Ball Catalog #4, when M. Dale Newton first started the company, no other car sides were offered separately except for any of the diecast sides (gons, flat & hoppers). And while the Green Bay & Western Reefer was offered (as a complete kit only), none of the kits carried a kit number. Then, after Howell Day took the company over in 1961 I believe, he offered car side sets separately as well as with the kits. In addition to some of his Red Ball catalogs, I also have the first few years of his "Red Ball News" bulletins, which was "published occasionally," and which gives additional information. Both the car kits and the car-side sets were offered with catalog numbers at this time. Using the same number, the kits had the prefix "K" with the number, and the car-side sets had the suffix "S" with the SAME number. So, the WRX Green Bay and Western kit was K-118, and the WRX Green Bay & Western car-side set was 118-S. I don't have any of the later Red Ball catalogs as it appears you have, but if your information has it that the Red Ball WRX reefer is kit number R-4, then it does appear that the kit numbers were changed somewhere along the line, as this (R-4) kit numbering system does not yet appear in the early years through Catalog 11 (and "K-4" is an acid tank car kit, so that's not even close). Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Mathu" <mark@...> wrote: > > Actually, you do need to tell me... I have to admit I've never built > a "vintage" craftsman-type wood model; I got into the hobby in HO > scale in the 1970s, when plastic was the norm. Thank you for the > information, I didn't know that the car sides were also sold > separately (although that makes sense, I guess). > > ____ > Mark Mathu > Whitefish Bay, Wis. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5544	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics

Nice, very nice.  I also like that phosphate car.  I need to get one of those.  I can't wait to get started on that Milwaukee auto car. Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: don.dellmann@... Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 22:51:51 -0600 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics The new one, and a repaint of my first one, are both on the group home page, in my photo album "zdon dellmann's stuff/Ambroid" , or, for at least the next few days, click on "new photos" right from the home page.   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Victor Bitleris To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:15 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Please do post photos of that Milwaukee car.  I have one and plan to build it in the next year or so, when I have finished some other projects I am working on.  I always thought that was a unique car, full of character. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5545	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Just saw something

Browsing through eBay I noticed this and thought I'd alert the group in case anyone were interested. 22+ Old Estate Wood & Metal HO COACHES-FIX/PARTS DEAL! Item number: 140210458043 No, it's not my sale! Walter Bayer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5546	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Vintage kits on ebay

For those that collect these vintage kits, I acquired some this past weekend and have listed them on ebay. Search on seller cgw-bcrn Mint rolling stock kits, Mantua gondola, reefer, bobber caboose. Globe box car Assembled Mantua hopper. Locomotives - mint Mantua Eight Ball Mogul and mint Lindsay diesel switcher. Later I have too very old Central Valley kits to be listed (est 1951 era) Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5547	From: Riverboy	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just saw something

I just saw that lot myself a couple hours ago. A really nice looking lot. A lot of rebuildables.   "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: Browsing through eBay I noticed this and thought I'd alert the group in case anyone were interested. 22+ Old Estate Wood & Metal HO COACHES-FIX/ PARTS DEAL! Item number: 140210458043 No, it's not my sale! Walter Bayer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5548	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: Just saw something

It's tempting.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Just saw something I just saw that lot myself a couple hours ago. A really nice looking lot. A lot of rebuildables.   "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: Browsing through eBay I noticed this and thought I'd alert the group in case anyone were interested. 22+ Old Estate Wood & Metal HO COACHES-FIX/ PARTS DEAL! Item number: 140210458043 No, it's not my sale! Walter Bayer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5549	From: ottsm	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: What American Flyer HO Couplers are correct?

I've always used AF S gauge products but recently I've gotten hooked on AF HO gauge equipment. I am having problems trying to figure out what couplers are suppose to be on my engines, etc.; I have two older 5318 Hudson's; one has what appears to be the original coupler, it's metal and a simple hook that must be manually uncoupled. The other has a Mantua style coupler but it's broken and needs replaced/repaired. I also have a 446 Hudson from around 1957. The coupler is broken but may have been a x2F coupler, is this the correct coupler, or would it have been different? I only have collected 3 cars so far that all have the old manual coulplers that the one 5318 has. I'm getting other cars but they all appear to have the X2F couplers, are these originals for the late 50 American Flyers, or are all these replacements. I'm kind of in to original equipment, however, if I need to replace/repair coupling, what options are available?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5550	From: Gerry	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: A bit of help here..

I'm finally getting back into it after retirement. I started by knocking together a 12 yard side dump car by Model Engineering Works. I ran into a problem, maybe someone can help. I wanted to put Kadee couplers on it and for the life of me, the darn Kadee charts don't make it easy to find the right coupler. I have not dabbled with the height yet, but assuming it's standard, as it seems to be, it has a single cast stud to mount the coupler on that would be peened over after the box lid and coupler was in place. The pin is 0.064" in diameter, centered on the box casting and the box's size is 0.243" in width, 0.505" in length and 0.065" in depth. No couplers are in any of the four kits in my possession. Images are: http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/underframe.jpg http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/coupler-pocket.jpg Suggested Kadee product number would be appreciated. Cordially, Gerry D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5551	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry" <gerard_sr@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:13 PM Subject: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. > I'm finally getting back into it after retirement. > I started by knocking together a 12 yard side dump car by Model > Engineering Works. > > I ran into a problem, maybe someone can help. > > I wanted to put Kadee couplers on it and for the life of me, the darn > Kadee charts don't make it easy to find the right coupler. > > I have not dabbled with the height yet, but assuming it's standard, as > it seems to be, it has a single cast stud to mount the coupler on that > would be peened over after the box lid and coupler was in place. > > The pin is 0.064" in diameter, centered on the box casting and the > box's size is 0.243" in width, 0.505" in length and 0.065" in depth. > > No couplers are in any of the four kits in my possession. > > Images are: > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/underframe.jpg > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/coupler-pocket.jpg > > Suggested Kadee product number would be appreciated. > > Cordially, > Gerry D My initial gut reaction is to use a number 4. BUT, make sure the trucks are insulated. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5552	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

Hi Gerry, It looks like its set up for a Number 4, finding those is a bit of a trick since I don't believe Kadee makes those any longer, I got lucky as my local dealer also has a lot of vintage stuff sitting in his back room, he just happened to have one package of No.4 couplers when I needed them, barring finding a set of No.4 couplers, you may need to modify the coupler boxes to fit a No.5...........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:47:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry" <gerard_sr@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:13 PM Subject: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. > I'm finally getting back into it after retirement. > I started by knocking together a 12 yard side dump car by Model > Engineering Works. > > I ran into a problem, maybe someone can help. > > I wanted to put Kadee couplers on it and for the life of me, the darn > Kadee charts don't make it easy to find the right coupler. > > I have not dabbled with the height yet, but assuming it's standard, as > it seems to be, it has a single cast stud to mount the coupler on that > would be peened over after the box lid and coupler was in place. > > The pin is 0.064" in diameter, centered on the box casting and the > box's size is 0.243" in width, 0.505" in length and 0.065" in depth. > > No couplers are in any of the four kits in my possession. > > Images are: > http://kitbash. ourpage.com/ mew/underframe. jpg > http://kitbash. ourpage.com/ mew/coupler- pocket.jpg > > Suggested Kadee product number would be appreciated. > > Cordially, > Gerry D My initial gut reaction is to use a number 4. BUT, make sure the trucks are insulated. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5553	From: Gerry D	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

Plastic MDC trucks, originals have deep flanges. I'll look into it Don! You don't know the height/thickness of the shank, do you? --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerry" <gerard_sr@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:13 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. > > > > I'm finally getting back into it after retirement. > > I started by knocking together a 12 yard side dump > car by Model > > Engineering Works. > > > > I ran into a problem, maybe someone can help. > > > > I wanted to put Kadee couplers on it and for the > life of me, the darn > > Kadee charts don't make it easy to find the right > coupler. > > > > I have not dabbled with the height yet, but > assuming it's standard, as > > it seems to be, it has a single cast stud to mount > the coupler on that > > would be peened over after the box lid and coupler > was in place. > > > > The pin is 0.064" in diameter, centered on the box > casting and the > > box's size is 0.243" in width, 0.505" in length > and 0.065" in depth. > > > > No couplers are in any of the four kits in my > possession. > > > > Images are: > > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/underframe.jpg > > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/coupler-pocket.jpg > > > > Suggested Kadee product number would be > appreciated. > > > > Cordially, > > Gerry D > > My initial gut reaction is to use a number 4. BUT, > make sure the trucks > are insulated. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5554	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 2/27/2008
Subject: Kadee#4

Gary Woodard wrote: Hi Gerry, It looks like its set up for a Number 4, finding those is a bit of a trick since I don't believe Kadee makes those any longer, I got lucky as my local dealer also has a lot of vintage stuff sitting in his back room, he just happened to have one package of No.4 couplers when I needed them, barring finding a set of No.4 couplers, you may need to modify the coupler boxes to fit a No.5...........:o) Gary W #4 couplers are listed in stock both at Kadee and Walthers: http://kadee.com/htmbord/page46.htm http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/380-4 As they are essential for Kadees log cars I think they will be still around for some time. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5555	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee#4

Hi Gerald, As Kadee would have no problem making changes to their log buggies, maybe not, considering I can't find them in the catolog...........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 2:36:07 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Kadee#4 Gary Woodard wrote: Hi Gerry, It looks like its set up for a Number 4, finding those is a bit of a trick since I don't believe Kadee makes those any longer, I got lucky as my local dealer also has a lot of vintage stuff sitting in his back room, he just happened to have one package of No.4 couplers when I needed them, barring finding a set of No.4 couplers, you may need to modify the coupler boxes to fit a No.5........ ...:o) Gary W #4 couplers are listed in stock both at Kadee and Walthers: http://kadee. com/htmbord/ page46.htm http://walthers. com/exec/ productinfo/ 380-4 As they are essential for Kadees log cars I think they will be still around for some time. Gerold Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5556	From: BillyDee53@aol.com	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee#4

The #4 is Kadee's standard coupler.  As Gerold said, they are listed as 'in stock' at both Kadee's website and Walther's.  Bill ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5557	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: What American Flyer HO Couplers are correct?

I suspect that someone knows the exact answer, but the AF items I had from around 1956-58 (my father bought them for me at an auto parts store in the little town we lived in) all had the X2f couplers except for one, apparently older car that had the hook just like the one you describe. The shop owner sold us a kit of X2f coupler conversions for them but the car was never converted. However, I don't know how old the car with the hook type coupler was. Just a but of anecdotal evidence. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "ottsm" <ottsm@...> wrote: > > I've always used AF S gauge products but recently I've gotten hooked > on AF HO gauge equipment. I am having problems trying to figure out > what couplers are suppose to be on my engines, etc.; > > I have two older 5318 Hudson's; one has what appears to be the > original coupler, it's metal and a simple hook that must be manually > uncoupled. The other has a Mantua style coupler but it's broken and > needs replaced/repaired. > > I also have a 446 Hudson from around 1957. The coupler is broken but > may have been a x2F coupler, is this the correct coupler, or would it > have been different? > > I only have collected 3 cars so far that all have the old manual > coulplers that the one 5318 has. > > I'm getting other cars but they all appear to have the X2F couplers, > are these originals for the late 50 American Flyers, or are all these > replacements. > > I'm kind of in to original equipment, however, if I need to > replace/repair coupling, what options are available? >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5558	From: greendoddz	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee#4

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, BillyDee53@... wrote: > > The #4 is Kadee's standard coupler. As Gerold said, they are listed as 'in > stock' at both Kadee's website and Walther's. Bill I haven't used a #4 in a long time. IIRC, they actually fit the factory boxes of some vintage rolling stock. I remember my dad had a few freight cars with #4 installed directly - perhaps Ulrich diecast cars, or old MDC diecast cars. I always wondered what happened to #1, #2, and #3. The #5 was called "5 & 10" for some years, I think around 1980 it reverted to just being #5. The draft gear has changed several times. The 5 & 10 draft gear was longer - had more empty space inboard of the shank. And then they recently switched over to a snap-on cover and got rid of the side ears, which are still useful if you're installing on brass that is set up for them. Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5559	From: Gerry D	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

Thank you all! The #4 looks OK, but the self centering function is gone. One needs the lid that bumps the tabs on both sides of the coupler shank. (I have an uncompleted log buggie or two for another project and tried the coupler from that.) I really wouldn't like to drill out the post, but maybe I will have to as it's a bit tight to put a centering spring with a #5 in it, so while I'm at it, I may put a frame in my cross-feed vise and mill a tiny bit off in my drill press. I'll let you know how it works out. Cordially, Gerry D ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5560	From: garyp552002	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive Drawing

Does anyone have a drawing or parts diagram for a metal Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive? I would gretly appreciate any help. E mail copy would be great or I will be glad to pay copy costs and postage. Thanks! Gary

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5561	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

At one time didn't KD supply a sheet metal metal adapter that helped with the centering? Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerry D To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. Thank you all! The #4 looks OK, but the self centering function is gone. One needs the lid that bumps the tabs on both sides of the coupler shank. (I have an uncompleted log buggie or two for another project and tried the coupler from that.) I really wouldn't like to drill out the post, but maybe I will have to as it's a bit tight to put a centering spring with a #5 in it, so while I'm at it, I may put a frame in my cross-feed vise and mill a tiny bit off in my drill press. I'll let you know how it works out. Cordially, Gerry D ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5562	From: Walter	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: What American Flyer HO Couplers are correct?

Go to http://myflyertrains.org/, and look at pp. 30 & 32 of the 1950 catalog (1950 D1578). You can just about make out the couplers. The post-war coupler could best be described as: Take 2 X2F couplers, and cut off everything beneath the hooks. Then stack them one on top of the other and turn them upside down. You now have something that resembles the AF HO coupler. It is a metal casting and it couples automatically, but needs manual assistance to uncouple. I think, but I can't be certain, that the pre-war couplers were the same. Looking at these catalogs, it appears that Gilbert abandoned HO sometime in the 1950's and re-entered in 1960 with a completely new line of cars and new locos. The Hudson and the yard goat were still around, too. The old brown bakelite roadbed tracks, and all the old passenger and freight cars (except the caboose?), were gone. The new line all used the X2F coupler. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5563	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

Hi Gerry, Another thing you might try is the new Whisker Couplers, they are designed just for those tight areas where a No.5 centering spring isn't really suitable..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:06:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. Thank you all! The #4 looks OK, but the self centering function is gone. One needs the lid that bumps the tabs on both sides of the coupler shank. (I have an uncompleted log buggie or two for another project and tried the coupler from that.) I really wouldn't like to drill out the post, but maybe I will have to as it's a bit tight to put a centering spring with a #5 in it, so while I'm at it, I may put a frame in my cross-feed vise and mill a tiny bit off in my drill press. I'll let you know how it works out. Cordially, Gerry D ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5564	From: don stokes	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive Drawing

Gary,   I have had ordered parts for my HO Hudson off the internet. I do not have the url for the site but I call it up by simply searching for American flyer train repair. The site has exploded drawings of the Hudson and 0-6-0. They may be able to help you. Topstokes garyp552002 <garyp552002@...> wrote: Does anyone have a drawing or parts diagram for a metal Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive? I would gretly appreciate any help. E mail copy would be great or I will be glad to pay copy costs and postage. Thanks! Gary Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5565	From: Jay Matz	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Vintage web page

I have added a Vintage HO page to my web site. This is a start I will add more as I have time. Hopefully I will get more restored in the future. Take a look also enjoy the layout photos. http://www.dlw-model-rr.com/ Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5566	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage web page

Jay, That's a great lineup of vintage motive power. Very impressive. One minor correction though. The top loco on the left column is not a Mantua Big 6. It is a Little 6. The Big 6 shared the same body as the Shifter with an 0-6-0 mechanism. The Little 6 you show shares the body with the Mantua Booster. Not being critical, just informative, I hope. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Matz" <dlw455@...> wrote: > > I have added a Vintage HO page to my web site. > This is a start I will add more as I have time. > Hopefully I will get more restored in the future. > Take a look also enjoy the layout photos. > http://www.dlw-model-rr.com/ > Jay >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5567	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] A bit of help here..

Gary, The Kadee No. 4 is listed in the 2008 Walthers catalogue and listed at their site.  So it might be your hobby shop that is not stocking them. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Gary Woodard Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:50 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] A bit of help here..   Hi Gerry, It looks like its set up for a Number 4, finding those is a bit of a trick since I don't believe Kadee makes those any longer, I got lucky as my local dealer also has a lot of vintage stuff sitting in his back room, he just happened to have one package of No.4 couplers when I needed them, barring finding a set of No.4 couplers, you may need to modify the coupler boxes to fit a No.5........ ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:47:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry" <gerard_sr@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:13 PM Subject: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. > I'm finally getting back into it after retirement. > I started by knocking together a 12 yard side dump car by Model > Engineering Works. > > I ran into a problem, maybe someone can help. > > I wanted to put Kadee couplers on it and for the life of me, the darn > Kadee charts don't make it easy to find the right coupler. > > I have not dabbled with the height yet, but assuming it's standard, as > it seems to be, it has a single cast stud to mount the coupler on that > would be peened over after the box lid and coupler was in place. > > The pin is 0.064" in diameter, centered on the box casting and the > box's size is 0.243" in width, 0.505" in length and 0.065" in depth. > > No couplers are in any of the four kits in my possession. > > Images are: > http://kitbash. ourpage.com/ mew/underframe. jpg > http://kitbash. ourpage.com/ mew/coupler- pocket.jpg > > Suggested Kadee product number would be appreciated. > > Cordially, > Gerry D My initial gut reaction is to use a number 4. BUT, make sure the trucks are insulated. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY     Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5568	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive Drawing

Gary, After looking at all of the AF Gilbert catalogues from the site posted two weeks ago.  I did not see one 0-4-0 tank loco.  Can you post a photo?   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of garyp552002 Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive Drawing   Does anyone have a drawing or parts diagram for a metal Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive? I would gretly appreciate any help. E mail copy would be great or I will be glad to pay copy costs and postage. Thanks! Gary

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5569	From: ottsm	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: What American Flyer HO Couplers are correct?

Thanks for all the info, the "myflyertrain" web page really helped out a lot, the old catalogs really show everything. Looks like the 446 needs the x2f coupling and the 5318 needs the old manual hook.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5570	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

I think they still do.  I'll have to look downstairs, I think I have some 4's.  If not, I'll be getting more soon.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. At one time didn't KD supply a sheet metal metal adapter that helped with the centering? Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerry D To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. Thank you all! The #4 looks OK, but the self centering function is gone. One needs the lid that bumps the tabs on both sides of the coupler shank. (I have an uncompleted log buggie or two for another project and tried the coupler from that.) I really wouldn't like to drill out the post, but maybe I will have to as it's a bit tight to put a centering spring with a #5 in it, so while I'm at it, I may put a frame in my cross-feed vise and mill a tiny bit off in my drill press. I'll let you know how it works out. Cordially, Gerry D ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5571	From: jay matz	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage web page

Bill Thank you I saw that it was wrong, I just never fixed it. That is on my things to do list. Jay > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5572	From: gary pardue	Date: 2/28/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive Drawing

Don, Thanks for the info. I will give it a try. don stokes <topstokes@...> wrote: Gary,   I have had ordered parts for my HO Hudson off the internet. I do not have the url for the site but I call it up by simply searching for American flyer train repair. The site has exploded drawings of the Hudson and 0-6-0. They may be able to help you. Topstokes garyp552002 <garyp552002@ yahoo.com> wrote: Does anyone have a drawing or parts diagram for a metal Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive? I would gretly appreciate any help. E mail copy would be great or I will be glad to pay copy costs and postage. Thanks! Gary Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5573	From: rcjge	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Lionel HO Husky Chassis and bottom plate sought!?

Hey Gents: I was wondering if anyone in their trove of goodies has a Lionel Husky Chassis they would part with. This is the geared fella and and not the Athearn HI-F unit. It needs to be complete with manufacturers plate on the bottom. At present I have a Erie Centercab of theirs but it's sitting on an unpowered chassis which I'd like to rectify. I also have a pristine Rock Island Husky but missing the the manufacturers plate on the bottom, (unscrupulous Evilbayer). If you have only that, I'd like to get my hands on it... Thanks, Gareth

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5574	From: wb3iqe	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: A small puzzle

Last Sunday I went to a local train show/sale and, among others, bought an HO gondola. The puzzle: The die cast underframe is marked Penn Line. The plastic body is marked Mantua. Could be that someone swapped some parts some time in the past, but the body fits the underframe exactly, imcluding two round bosses on the body that fit neatly into recesses in the underframe. That is, it looks like they were made for each other. Does someone who remembers history better than I do know how a Penn Line underframe could end up exactly nating to a Mantua car body? Bob Netzlof

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5575	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Varney streamliners.

A question came up in private correspondence with another group member over the Varney celluloid side passenger cars. In the diner kit, there is a piece of wire that is not referenced in the instructions. Does anyone know why this is there? It was mentioned that it might be for a roof antenna, but there's no stanchions. Is it for hand grabs? If so, none of the other kits have it, only the diner. Anyone know? Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5576	From: Gerry D	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle

--- wb3iqe <wb3iqe@...> wrote: > Last Sunday I went to a local train show/sale and, > among others, bought > an HO gondola. > > The puzzle: The die cast underframe is marked Penn > Line. The plastic > body is marked Mantua. > > Could be that someone swapped some parts some time > in the past, but the > body fits the underframe exactly, imcluding two > round bosses on the > body that fit neatly into recesses in the > underframe. That is, it looks > like they were made for each other. > > Does someone who remembers history better than I do > know how a Penn > Line underframe could end up exactly nating to a > Mantua car body? > > Bob Netzlof Is that where that underframe went! Son of a gun! Seriously... IMHO: a 40 foot gondola is a 40 foot car. Underframes "should" have standard locations for bolsters and "mounting" screws if they be through the bolster/truck screw tab. But, Mantua/Tyco had one twist to many of their standard underframes, at least on all I looked at in my collection. They had additional corner screw holes. Could it be that the original "car", a Penn Line, had the unfortunate problem, possibly from abuse, messed up tabs for the truck mounting, (a person or persons unknown), swapped the frames to take advantage of these pre-drilled corner holes to re-attach a Mantua/Tyco underframe to a car body that was reinforced with corner blocks or simply by small screws into the corner of the car body with a "gob" of some solidifying substance in the frame cavity normally occupied by the bolster tab that would accept a drilled and tapped or self tapped screw to hold the trucks on? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, That's where the missing Mantua/Tyco underframe is now, It's providing a suitable support, (underframe), and truck mounting for a poor hapless Penn Line car that had lost it's integral bolster/body mounting tabs. The defense rests it's case. Cordially, Gerry D ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5577	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Re: Varney streamliners.

Don, This is only a guess, but some cars, RPOs and some diners, had horizonatal bars through a few of the windows in real life. Probably Varney wanted you to add this detail too. I know the Rapdio coaches add this neat detail to some of their coaches as well. But that's beyond the scope of the group. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > A question came up in private correspondence with another group member over > the Varney celluloid side passenger cars. In the diner kit, there is a > piece of wire that is not referenced in the instructions. Does anyone know > why this is there? It was mentioned that it might be for a roof antenna, > but there's no stanchions. Is it for hand grabs? If so, none of the other > kits have it, only the diner. > > Anyone know? > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5578	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Gilbert, pre-X2F, die-cast metal couplers

I am looking for a pair of the Gilbert HO 'automatic' couplers, with draft gear. I mean the cast metal couplers used before Gilbert transitioned to the so-called NMRA, or, more properly, the X2F coupler. Can anyone help? Thanks, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5579	From: AL	Date: 2/29/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1168

Does anyone have a drawing or parts diagram for a metal Gilbert 040 Tank Locomotive? I would gretly appreciate any help. E mail copy would be great or I will be glad to pay copy costs and postage. Thanks! Gary .............................. If you find this info, please post the link, as I have one of these American Flyer / GIlbert tank locos myself waiting in the 'restore me' pile . Thanks ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5580	From: topstokes	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1168

-Man I thought finding certain engines in brass was bad but this one is right there among them. I have exhausted my pile of reference material hunting for just a bit of information, all to no avail. The nearest thing I can find to a Flyer tank engine is a 0-6-0 they produced in S gauge.I think who ever produced this HO engine must of worked on the B2 stealth mode. I have one resource left and it is a friend of mine who has owned hobby shops in Florida and Michigan and is a long time TCA member. Perhaps he can help. I'll let you know. Any chances of a photo being posted of what is availble. I do not doubt that you have one for a have a John Henry N & W Turbine no one has been able to identify. And it is old, uses pressboard as a component in the base, spring belt drive for the gearing but has an all brass super structure. Topstokes -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "AL" <Sailordoode@...> wrote: > > Does anyone have a drawing or parts diagram for a metal Gilbert 040 > Tank Locomotive? I would gretly appreciate any help. E mail copy would > be great or I will be glad to pay copy costs and postage. Thanks! > Gary > .............................. > > If you find this info, please post the link, as I have one of these > American Flyer / GIlbert tank locos myself waiting in the 'restore me' pile > . > > Thanks > > ~ AL >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5581	From: AL	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: vintage passenger cars

Well, now that I'm coming out of my shell and messing up my long-time-lurker position , lol .... I'm currently sorting through some boxes of mostly vintage items that were displaced during mini-remodel of the bedroom / storage room, finding some good stuff I forgot I had, too ! I will try to get some photos uploaded, and ask the guru's for help identifying a box of passenger cars I got at a club auction a couple years back and set aside for 'future time' . ( noting I'm learning as I go, but since I grew up in the netorious 70's on AHM and Tyco items, have only gotten enthralled with vintage since my reentering the hobby 4-5 years ago, so,,,,) here's descriptions ( photos later today, hopefully, when I get a spare minute while cleaning). - Athearn RDC unpowered , looks to be an old HI-F type unit, missing the trucks, has the two posts where the HiF trucks would ride. (would be interested in a set of trucks if anyone has a pair ). - long coach kit (note, all cars in this lot aprox 12" long), wood core kit,rounded roof and uderside (northeastern milled wood 'skirting', metal side appear factory painted, Empire Builder scheme, flat metal ends (over the wood blocks,wood shows through 'windows'), has no undercairage detail, sprung American Beauty 4 wheel trucks,no couplers (yes, the missing side is here someplace ) - combine - parlty painted green - this one unusual, wood floor with strene bolsters, scribed wood sides with plastic windows,plastic roof appears to be vacuum formed, very thin and brittle (and somewhat warped ),has nice detail overall, but no trucks, very lightweight car. - Great Northern Empire Builder observation / dome car, plastic car (lightweight), has plastic trucks and dummy scale coupler, minimal underside detail, no markings I could find. again a very lightweight car that would need added weight to run well - nice coach kit, wood floor with stamped tin sides, unfinished, cast metal details and wood rounded roof. interior detail started. currently has 'cobbled on' Rivarossi plastic trucks (note there is a Rivarossi Pennsy RPO car in this lot ,missing trucks, but I failed to list due to not being 'vintage', so here's the trucks, I guess ). - another wood and stamped side car,NOT same brand,as these side appear to me alluminum and don;t have the same 'lip' at top (where the roof sits). has a crudely cut wood roof (again,Northeastern wood type),cast ends and steps, NO trucks ( note the builder has installed the bolster castings lengthwise, curious.... - diner car - wood floor, stamped steel sides,definately same type sides as the 'rivarossi truck' car.interior added.unsure the trucks, CV or American Beauty (sprung diecast) missing the roof (assume wood as the others) - I also have two short hollow roof sections (wood),aprox 9 1/4" - last but not least is a pair of unassembled Laconia cars. one C&O and one unlettered. but only one set of wood pieces,cardstock ends,etc. would be VERY INTERESTED in getting a photocopy of the instructions / plans for these so I can build em up. any help appreciated. would definatley be interested in any other info, plans / instructions or tips on completing / detailing these pieces. Thanks in advance and happy railroading !!! ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5582	From: AL	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars

photos uploaded under folder ' AL's vintage HO ' . enjoy ? ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5583	From: Riverboy	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars

I can't locate the album. AL <Sailordoode@...> wrote: photos uploaded under folder ' AL's vintage HO ' . enjoy ? ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5584	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Selling some interesting Varney items

I just listed a Varney Berkshire 2714-K kit on ebay.  It is very nice, complete, unbuilt, one.   320223580942 Varney Berkshire 2-8-4 Kit 2714-K   And if this group doesn't mind a slightly off topic item mentioned, I also listed a Varney PT boat kit.  (Yes, Gordon Varney produced PT boat kits).   320223597277 Varney PT Boat kit   OK, so it's a boat.  And it "S" gauge technically (scale is 3/16" - 1').  So put me on double-secret probation.  But it is Varney.  And very intersting, and the first paragraph of the instructions, shown in the last photo, shows something about Mr. Varney's classy style.   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5585	From: AL	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote: > > I can't locate the album. > My bad - did not get uploaded correctly, they're in there now ! back to cleaning / sorting.... not so bad when you clean-work-sort a while, then 'have to' sort through the trains for a bit :-) ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5586	From: topstokes	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: American Flyer 0-4-0

I checked with my buddy who is very versed on older trains of all makes and scales. He has never seen an AF HO 0-4-0 tank engine. He feels that perhaps the siderod diesels that AF made in HO may be what you are talking about. They are of an 0-4-0 arrangement and are similar in appearance to a tank engine. Good luck. Topstokes

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5587	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: Selling some interesting Varney items

320223580942 Varney Berkshire 2-8-4 Kit 2714-K  ooh ooh ooh ooh   Me likey... Sean ckinzer@... wrote: I just listed a Varney Berkshire 2714-K kit on ebay.  It is very nice, complete, unbuilt, one.   320223580942 Varney Berkshire 2-8-4 Kit 2714-K   And if this group doesn't mind a slightly off topic item mentioned, I also listed a Varney PT boat kit.  (Yes, Gordon Varney produced PT boat kits).   320223597277 Varney PT Boat kit   OK, so it's a boat.  And it "S" gauge technically (scale is 3/16" - 1').  So put me on double-secret probation.  But it is Varney.  And very intersting, and the first paragraph of the instructions, shown in the last photo, shows something about Mr. Varney's classy style.   Chuck Kinzer Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5588	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars

----- Original Message ----- From: "AL" <Sailordoode@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: [vintageHO] vintage passenger cars > Well, now that I'm coming out of my shell and messing up my > long-time-lurker > position , lol .... > > I'm currently sorting through some boxes of mostly vintage items that were > displaced during mini-remodel of the bedroom / storage room, finding some > good stuff I forgot I had, too ! > > I will try to get some photos uploaded, and ask the guru's for help > identifying a box of passenger cars I got at a club auction a couple years > back and set aside for 'future time' . ( noting I'm learning as I go, but > since I grew up in the netorious 70's on AHM and Tyco items, have only > gotten enthralled with vintage since my reentering the hobby 4-5 years > ago, > so,,,,) > > here's descriptions ( photos later today, hopefully, when I get a spare > minute while cleaning). > > - Athearn RDC unpowered , looks to be an old HI-F type unit, missing the > trucks, has the two posts where the HiF trucks would ride. (would be > interested in a set of trucks if anyone has a pair ). > > - long coach kit (note, all cars in this lot aprox 12" long), wood core > kit,rounded roof and uderside (northeastern milled wood 'skirting', metal > side appear factory painted, Empire Builder scheme, flat metal ends (over > the wood blocks,wood shows through 'windows'), has no undercairage detail, > sprung American Beauty 4 wheel trucks,no couplers (yes, the missing side > is > here someplace ) American Beauty? > > - combine - parlty painted green - this one unusual, wood floor with > strene > bolsters, scribed wood sides with plastic windows,plastic roof appears to > be > vacuum formed, very thin and brittle (and somewhat warped ),has nice > detail > overall, but no trucks, very lightweight car. > > - Great Northern Empire Builder observation / dome car, plastic car > (lightweight), has plastic trucks and dummy scale coupler, minimal > underside > detail, no markings I could find. again a very lightweight car that would > need added weight to run well > This one is either a Globe or a very early (pre early '60's) Athearn. > - nice coach kit, wood floor with stamped tin sides, unfinished, cast > metal > details and wood rounded roof. interior detail started. currently has > 'cobbled on' Rivarossi plastic trucks (note there is a Rivarossi Pennsy > RPO > car in this lot ,missing trucks, but I failed to list due to not being > 'vintage', so here's the trucks, I guess ). > Looks like a Walthers. > - another wood and stamped side car,NOT same brand,as these side appear to > me alluminum and don;t have the same 'lip' at top (where the roof sits). > has > a crudely cut wood roof (again,Northeastern wood type),cast ends and > steps, > NO trucks ( note the builder has installed the bolster castings > lengthwise, > curious.... > > - diner car - wood floor, stamped steel sides,definately same type sides > as > the 'rivarossi truck' car.interior added.unsure the trucks, CV or American > Beauty (sprung diecast) missing the roof (assume wood as the others) > This looks a lot like a Walthers too. > - I also have two short hollow roof sections (wood),aprox 9 1/4" > > - last but not least is a pair of unassembled Laconia cars. one C&O and > one > unlettered. but only one set of wood pieces,cardstock ends,etc. would be > VERY INTERESTED in getting a photocopy of the instructions / plans for > these > so I can build em up. any help appreciated. > > would definatley be interested in any other info, plans / instructions or > tips on completing / detailing these pieces. > > Thanks in advance and happy railroading !!! > > ~ AL Some nice pieces, have definite possibilities Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5589	From: BillyDee53@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars

Athearn still sells RDC trucks.  Go to their website, click on 'Parts" and they are down near the bottom of the list...Bill ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5590	From: curmudgeon	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars

Maybe. They also list almost every part to build a Hustler. I ordered parts for a Hustler late last year, and they e-mailed me back, saying the parts list is old, out-of-date, and they have "purged" the stock of old stuff. Then, they sent me the parts. So, I don't know what they really have or don't have. Dave > Athearn still sells RDC trucks. Go to their website, click on 'Parts" and > they are down near the bottom of the list...Bill > > > ************** > Ideas to please > picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. > > (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel- campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598 > ) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5591	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars

Hi Al: There is a good posiblity that those stamped, metal sided cars with wood parts are either old Walthers, or JC Models car kits. Got a couple of them too here. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5592	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: For Varney collectors

Listers: Going thru some more of my stuff, I found 3 sets of old Varney metal car sides. These are nicely done (factory painted) in SP Daylght colors. They represent what appear to be 60 foot shorty smooth-sided streamlined car sides. No other parts. These are for 3 separate passenger cars, all SP Daylight colors in orange and scarlet, and lettered. I don't need them. Any collectors interested in making a bid for them? If so, drop a note off list. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5593	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars

Hi Al, Some pretty nice old passenger cars you have there, RDC trucks should be able to get at any train show or even on ebay, might even find an old Ernst Gear set to re-gear it with and get away from those awful rubber bands............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: AL <Sailordoode@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2008 12:12:51 PM Subject: [vintageHO] vintage passenger cars Well, now that I'm coming out of my shell and messing up my long-time-lurker position , lol .... I'm currently sorting through some boxes of mostly vintage items that were displaced during mini-remodel of the bedroom / storage room, finding some good stuff I forgot I had, too ! I will try to get some photos uploaded, and ask the guru's for help identifying a box of passenger cars I got at a club auction a couple years back and set aside for 'future time' . ( noting I'm learning as I go, but since I grew up in the netorious 70's on AHM and Tyco items, have only gotten enthralled with vintage since my reentering the hobby 4-5 years ago, so,,,,) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5594	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: E P ALEXANDER

VERY interesting as "Superior Models" was a name used by G. S. (Jerry) White.  I wonder if they collaborated. I knew Jerry.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: VINTAGE H-0 Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:00 PM Subject: [vintageHO] E P ALEXANDER A while back there was speculation if Ed Alexander had made H-O models. Attached are pictures of a casting for a Alco U25B made for Alco Locomtive for use as promo's.  The story was Alexander made completed models and sold off the unused castings.   It appears that a Hobbytown chassis could be adapted to this casting.  Also attached a scan of  his endorsement of the check dated December 1967.   Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5595	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: E P ALEXANDER

Quite a coincidence as I believe their businesses existed at the same times for a while.   Roger       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E P ALEXANDER VERY interesting as "Superior Models" was a name used by G. S. (Jerry) White.  I wonder if they collaborated. I knew Jerry.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: VINTAGE H-0 Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:00 PM Subject: [vintageHO] E P ALEXANDER A while back there was speculation if Ed Alexander had made H-O models. Attached are pictures of a casting for a Alco U25B made for Alco Locomtive for use as promo's.  The story was Alexander made completed models and sold off the unused castings.   It appears that a Hobbytown chassis could be adapted to this casting.  Also attached a scan of  his endorsement of the check dated December 1967.   Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5596	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/1/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

most likely #4. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry" <gerard_sr@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:13 PM Subject: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. > I'm finally getting back into it after retirement. > I started by knocking together a 12 yard side dump car by Model > Engineering Works. > > I ran into a problem, maybe someone can help. > > I wanted to put Kadee couplers on it and for the life of me, the darn > Kadee charts don't make it easy to find the right coupler. > > I have not dabbled with the height yet, but assuming it's standard, as > it seems to be, it has a single cast stud to mount the coupler on that > would be peened over after the box lid and coupler was in place. > > The pin is 0.064" in diameter, centered on the box casting and the > box's size is 0.243" in width, 0.505" in length and 0.065" in depth. > > No couplers are in any of the four kits in my possession. > > Images are: > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/underframe.jpg > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/coupler-pocket.jpg > > Suggested Kadee product number would be appreciated. > > Cordially, > Gerry D > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5597	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Weekly Withlacoochee River Report & Resurrecting The Dinosaurs 2.1

Hi All, I've just uploaded another edition of the Weekly Withlacoochee River Report, and another video episode of Resurrecting The Dinosaurs, not much on the report, as it has been a hectic week at work, and then going Wednesday to get our taxes done, (not good news there), there just wasn't much time to get much done on the model railroad, I did however, manage to get the circle cut out for the turntable at my engine facility. The Resurrecting video is the start of multi part series on converting a Pemco 4-8-2 Mountain into a 4-6-2 Pacific, utilizing a Mantua chassis, this first part of episode 2 shows what kind of parts I'm using for this conversion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XymPU26i1XA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW5foGmeBFE Gary W Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5598	From: erieberk	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Memories

Hi Glenn, and others, While I can't help you with a Mantua Atlantic, I remember your expressing interest in those metal-sided Mantua reefers that were dug out about a month or so ago. If still interested, I see there's one up on eBay now which will end in 6 days (mid-day). Its titled "Old Baby Ruth Billboard HO Scale Model Train - Mantua" and the eBay number is 270215768910. For some reason, I haven't seen many of these offered. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > The contest was HO--and Jack was expecting the standard plastic > boxcar--which I think was the first plastic car they did in HO Competed > against the Kurtz Kraft boxcar--same price, except the Athearn had trucks > with it for the same 89 cents. > > Actually, I'd settle for a complete Mantua Atlantic. I have all the small > engines, including the "Mighty Mite" which was the transition between the > "Goat" and "Busy Bee", and the "Shifter" and "Booster" die cast locos. MM > had the cast cab of the "Shifter" on a brass/zamak loco with the same tender > as the "Goat". gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:37 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > > > > Okay, I got ya now, on the Varney wood floor. These Mantua cars we > > all just talked about make a pretty decent addition to a vintage > > equipment layout -- they were nicely engineered. Yes, I agree with > > you 100%, the hobby needs a Mantua book -- BADLY. Something like > > that would sure come in handy. > > > > How well I remember building those StromBecker cars you mentioned. > > For a kid just learning to put these kits together, and just getting > > into H0, they were great fun to assemble. I remember that old dry > > (casein?) glue they included in the box that you mixed with water; > > held pretty good. When done carefully, they were half-way decent > > enough to operate on a layout. > > > > I know what you mean, about the Varney cast metal underframe (that > > attached to the wooden floor). BTW, Varney did use a cast metal > > floor (in 1952) between the time of their wood floor (in 1949) and > > the time if their plastic floor (in 1954). > > > > Interesting story about that 0 Scale contest. I've seen those > > Athearn 0 Scale metal car kits, but never really gave them a good > > look. Didn't know how they were constructed. They do look nice > > though. Almost makes ya want to switch scales (if you had the room) - > > - I said ALMOST! Finding a matching Mantua tender for the Atlantic > > may not be easy, unless you're going to settle for something > > similar. Varney had a short one that would probably work nicely if > > you could find it. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> I meant the wooden floor--I am convinced that this car IS a Mantua-- > > the > >> recent clarifications have convinced me that it might best be > > described as > >> a variant of the later (1950's on) cars--adding the overlay sides > > to the > >> cars with the plastic body and metal floor/frame casting. As I > > recall all > >> these had the "Talgo" trucks--initially with the traditional Mantua > > Coupler, > >> later with the X2f. The Varney frames I was comparing with differ > > in the > >> spacing of the two crossbearers at the door location (Varney wider > > than > >> Mantua) and that Varney apparently did not use the all-metal > > floor/frame > >> casting--this was a plastic molding--while Mantua kept the Zamak > > frame to > >> the end as far as I can see. > >> > >> I don't recall any Globe cars--but the construction you describe- - > > wood > >> sub-body with stamped metal overlays--was also used by Athearn and > > All > >> Nation on their O Scale lines.. Story there--During the 80's Jack > > Burgess > >> was our contest chairman of Coast Division, PCR/NMRA. For a > > special contest > >> at one meet he decided that it should be limited to "Athearn 40' > > boxcars." > >> So I rummaged through my O Scale stuff--actually re-kitted one and > > added the > >> underbody details--he wasn't going to accept it--until one of the > > HO old > >> timers brought in one of the HO metal cars--we taught him a thing > > or two > >> about the history in the hobby. 8^) > >> > >> Wish someone would do a book on Mantua like the one on Varney. The > > first HO > >> cars I had were Mantua in 1947-48. NYC box, MDT reefer, T&P gon, > > and OT > >> Combine. Then Santa brought a Varney F3. I was building > > Strombecker models > >> of all types then--my Dad built the Mantuas--If I did a good job he > > would > >> get real trucks and couplers for them. > >> > >> Anyhow, I think we are on the same page--Right now my Mantua search > > is > >> focused on finding a tender and some cast parts for the Atlantic. > > I have > >> the Pacific and Consolidation--both built up with SP-ish details- - > > one with a > >> scratchbuilt Vanderbilt tender. gj > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:01 AM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> > >> > >> > Glenn, Alright, I'm not disputing that Varney used a combination > >> > wooden floor with a die-cast frame on some of his early metal > > cars. > >> > This should be a well known fact; I have a number of them > > myself. I > >> > may have mis-read your earlier post wrong as it appeared to me > > that > >> > you were saying (1) that Varney used a wood frame (not wood > > floor), > >> > and (2) that maybe you were trying to tell us that a wood Varney > >> > floor on this Mantua reefer was possibly replaced by a cast floor > >> > (still pressing that this car was really a Varney). I was looking > >> > for you to clarify what you meant by "wood frame," as when I > > think in > >> > those terms the construction of Globe metal cars comes to my mind > >> > (they have a wood frame over which the metal sides, ends and roof > > are > >> > installed. I think at this point, you also may have misread my > >> > question, going by your answer (which I wasn't asking), but we'll > > let > >> > it go at that. Ray W. > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> OK--I think I covered most of this one in a recent post-- Varney > > did > >> > use a > >> >> combination of a wood floor with a die cast metal frame--this may > >> > be the > >> >> reference to the carryover from the pre-war type kits. > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@> > >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:50 AM > >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > "Replaced the Varney wood frame with the cast one"? I guess > > you > >> >> > mean "floor"? (Varney didn't have a wood or cast frame). Looks > >> > like > >> >> > you're still not convinced, since you're apparently now > > thinking > >> > this > >> >> > was kit-bashed -- unless I'm reading this wrong! If so, what > >> > does it > >> >> > take for you to acknowledge this is the genuine Mantua article? > >> > If > >> >> > I'm reading this wrong, I'd appreciate some clarity on this. > > Ray > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I wonder if someone replaced the varney (wood) frame with the > >> > cast > >> >> > one? I'd > >> >> >> like to see a bottom view of the ends--to see the > > construction of > >> >> > that part > >> >> >> of the car. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "Too Sharp" flanges sounds Varney to me--they had those trucks > >> > with > >> >> > the > >> >> >> one-piece nylon wheelsets with the rather deep, knife-edged > >> > flanges. > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@> > >> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:02 PM > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Attached are the other Mantua pix, the trucks were replaced, > >> >> > guess I felt > >> >> >> > the originals had too sharp of flanges. Think the sides > > could > >> > of > >> >> > been > >> >> >> > made > >> >> >> > by Varney for Mantua?, I once had Varney metal reefers the > >> > style > >> >> > seems > >> >> >> > similar. Roger > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> > From: Glenn476 > >> >> >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:12 PM > >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Memories > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > That's definitely one I have never seen before--could you > >> > please > >> >> > re-send > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > other pix of the car? Meanwhile I am looking for the Varney > >> >> > reefer I know > >> >> >> > is out there somewhere--it had the same tabs folding over > > the > >> >> > floor, but > >> >> >> > they had holes for screws. How about the body construction > >> > what > >> >> > parts are > >> >> >> > made with what--the Varneys had a side and an end together, > >> >> > separate roof. > >> >> >> > I have a lot of the Mantua original-type metal cars--and > > some > >> > of > >> >> > the > >> >> >> > later > >> >> >> > ones, but have never seen this variety. Those trucks look > >> > like > >> >> > Kadee-- > >> >> >> > gj > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5599	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: vintage passenger cars

Magnet-test.  Steel = Walthers, Aluminum = JC. ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] vintage passenger cars Hi Al: There is a good posiblity that those stamped, metal sided cars with wood parts are either old Walthers, or JC Models car kits. Got a couple of them too here. Dave F ************** Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5600	From: Don Grant	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

The # 4 adapter plate is stock # 204.  Some Hobby Shops will still have some.  If you can't find them, let me know. Don Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: most likely #4. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:13 PM Subject: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. > I'm finally getting back into it after retirement. > I started by knocking together a 12 yard side dump car by Model > Engineering Works. > > I ran into a problem, maybe someone can help. > > I wanted to put Kadee couplers on it and for the life of me, the darn > Kadee charts don't make it easy to find the right coupler. > > I have not dabbled with the height yet, but assuming it's standard, as > it seems to be, it has a single cast stud to mount the coupler on that > would be peened over after the box lid and coupler was in place. > > The pin is 0.064" in diameter, centered on the box casting and the > box's size is 0.243" in width, 0.505" in length and 0.065" in depth. > > No couplers are in any of the four kits in my possession. > > Images are: > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/underframe.jpg > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/coupler-pocket.jpg > > Suggested Kadee product number would be appreciated. > > Cordially, > Gerry D > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5601	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A bit of help here..

Thanks Don, I didn't get back to that project yet, but it looks like I'll be milling the frame pockets to accept # 5 Kadee pockets. # 204 is not listed in Kadee's present offerings. Too many things and not enough time! I tinkered with the poscets that came with their disconnect log cars, # 4's and accys. and I think the easier way out is the milling idea. Cordially, Gerry D --- Don Grant <grantdono@...> wrote: > The # 4 adapter plate is stock # 204. Some Hobby > Shops will still have some. If you can't find them, > let me know. > Don > > Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: > most likely #4. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerry" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:13 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] A bit of help here.. > > > > I'm finally getting back into it after retirement. > > I started by knocking together a 12 yard side dump > car by Model > > Engineering Works. > > > > I ran into a problem, maybe someone can help. > > > > I wanted to put Kadee couplers on it and for the > life of me, the darn > > Kadee charts don't make it easy to find the right > coupler. > > > > I have not dabbled with the height yet, but > assuming it's standard, as > > it seems to be, it has a single cast stud to mount > the coupler on that > > would be peened over after the box lid and coupler > was in place. > > > > The pin is 0.064" in diameter, centered on the box > casting and the > > box's size is 0.243" in width, 0.505" in length > and 0.065" in depth. > > > > No couplers are in any of the four kits in my > possession. > > > > Images are: > > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/underframe.jpg > > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mew/coupler-pocket.jpg > > > > Suggested Kadee product number would be > appreciated. > > > > Cordially, > > Gerry D > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5602	From: wb3iqe	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > --- wb3iqe <wb3iqe@...> wrote: > > The puzzle: The die cast underframe is marked Penn > > Line. The plastic > > body is marked Mantua. > > > > Does someone who remembers history better than I do > > know how a Penn > > Line underframe could end up exactly nating to a > > Mantua car body? > > > > Bob Netzlof > > Is that where that underframe went! > Son of a gun! We are amused. > a 40 foot gondola is a 40 foot car. Underframes > "should" have standard locations for bolsters and > "mounting" screws if they be through the bolster/truck > screw tab. > > But, Mantua/Tyco had one twist to many of their > standard underframes, at least on all I looked at in > my collection. They had additional corner screw holes. > > Could it be that the original "car", a Penn Line, had > the unfortunate problem, possibly from abuse, messed > up tabs for the truck mounting, (a person or persons > unknown), swapped the frames to take advantage of > these pre-drilled corner holes to re-attach a > Mantua/Tyco underframe to a car body that was > reinforced with corner blocks or simply by small > screws into the corner of the car body with a "gob" of > some solidifying substance in the frame cavity > normally occupied by the bolster tab that would accept > a drilled and tapped or self tapped screw to hold the > trucks on? No. The body is secured to the frame by two very small Phillips head self- tapping screws which pass through holes in the die-cast underframe and screw into holes in the two bosses which mate with recesses in the underframe. These are some distance, 1/2", maybe 3/4" inboard of the truck bolsters. The trucks are mounted using screws which apparently are threaded into the underframe alone and do not engage any part of the body. Leastways, when I remove the two very small screws noted above, the body lifts off the underframe. Thus exposed, the underside of the body shows no sign of any damage anywhere. No stripped screw holes, no blemishes where somebody shaved off a tab or lug, no globs or smears of cement. All very pristine looking. By and large, the underframe also looks pretty spiffy (I have some reservations about the coupler boxes (someone mounted Kadees) but aside from that...) No unaccounted for holes, no sign of butchery (other than near the coupler boxes). It looks very much like the body and underframe were made for each other, except the one says "Penn Line", the other says "Mantua". If one said "Tyco" and the other "Mantua", I could understand, but this isn't that. It runs in my mind that Penn Line went bankrupt, or the owner died, or some such. Given that, perhaps Mantua picked up some dies on the cheap and used them without bothering to erase the Penn Line name? Or maybe they bought a truckload of Penn Line castings and used them, figuring that no one would read the fine print on the bottom? > Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, That's where the > missing Mantua/Tyco underframe is now, It's providing > a suitable support, (underframe), and truck mounting > for a poor hapless Penn Line car that had lost it's > integral bolster/body mounting tabs. Actually, that's backwards or inside out or some such. The underframe is the part with Penn Line cast into its surface, the body says Mantua. Bob Netzlof

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5603	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle

According to the Bowser website, they purchased Penn Line when it went bankrupt in 1963.  However, who knows what kind of deals could be made during that period shortly before.  However, by then, Penn Line may have been making only the locomotive line and sold off the freight car dies to Mantua? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: wb3iqe@... Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 03:22:08 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: A small puzzle --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerry D <gerard_sr@. ..> wrote: > --- wb3iqe <wb3iqe@...> wrote: > > The puzzle: The die cast underframe is marked Penn > > Line. The plastic > > body is marked Mantua. > > > > Does someone who remembers history better than I do > > know how a Penn > > Line underframe could end up exactly nating to a > > Mantua car body? > > > > Bob Netzlof > > Is that where that underframe went! > Son of a gun! We are amused. > a 40 foot gondola is a 40 foot car. Underframes > "should" have standard locations for bolsters and > "mounting" screws if they be through the bolster/truck > screw tab. > > But, Mantua/Tyco had one twist to many of their > standard underframes, at least on all I looked at in > my collection. They had additional corner screw holes. > > Could it be that the original "car", a Penn Line, had > the unfortunate problem, possibly from abuse, messed > up tabs for the truck mounting, (a person or persons > unknown), swapped the frames to take advantage of > these pre-drilled corner holes to re-attach a > Mantua/Tyco underframe to a car body that was > reinforced with corner blocks or simply by small > screws into the corner of the car body with a "gob" of > some solidifying substance in the frame cavity > normally occupied by the bolster tab that would accept > a drilled and tapped or self tapped screw to hold the > trucks on? No. The body is secured to the frame by two very small Phillips head self- tapping screws which pass through holes in the die-cast underframe and screw into holes in the two bosses which mate with recesses in the underframe. These are some distance, 1/2", maybe 3/4" inboard of the truck bolsters. The trucks are mounted using screws which apparently are threaded into the underframe alone and do not engage any part of the body. Leastways, when I remove the two very small screws noted above, the body lifts off the underframe. Thus exposed, the underside of the body shows no sign of any damage anywhere. No stripped screw holes, no blemishes where somebody shaved off a tab or lug, no globs or smears of cement. All very pristine looking. By and large, the underframe also looks pretty spiffy (I have some reservations about the coupler boxes (someone mounted Kadees) but aside from that...) No unaccounted for holes, no sign of butchery (other than near the coupler boxes). It looks very much like the body and underframe were made for each other, except the one says "Penn Line", the other says "Mantua". If one said "Tyco" and the other "Mantua", I could understand, but this isn't that. It runs in my mind that Penn Line went bankrupt, or the owner died, or some such. Given that, perhaps Mantua picked up some dies on the cheap and used them without bothering to erase the Penn Line name? Or maybe they bought a truckload of Penn Line castings and used them, figuring that no one would read the fine print on the bottom? > Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, That's where the > missing Mantua/Tyco underframe is now, It's providing > a suitable support, (underframe) , and truck mounting > for a poor hapless Penn Line car that had lost it's > integral bolster/body mounting tabs. Actually, that's backwards or inside out or some such. The underframe is the part with Penn Line cast into its surface, the body says Mantua. Bob Netzlof Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5604	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/2/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle

OK, I didn't make that as clear as I wanted to. I was describing the scenario of the Mantua frame on a Penn Line car. Could it possibly be a Penn Line car made under contract for Mantua? Nawh, Only true if the Mantua name is painted on. I don't remember seeing any that had that. I'm not clear on a point. Is the plastic body embossed with the name Mantua? Then there is the possibility that Mantua had a contract to make cars for Penn Line and it's a goof up like the infamous Athearn gondola with the Lionel Logo. Your idea on the buying of the dies is a good one though! Gerry --- wb3iqe <wb3iqe@...> wrote: > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerry D > <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > > > --- wb3iqe <wb3iqe@...> wrote: > > > > The puzzle: The die cast underframe is marked > Penn > > > Line. The plastic > > > body is marked Mantua. > > > > > > Does someone who remembers history better than I > do > > > know how a Penn > > > Line underframe could end up exactly nating to a > > > Mantua car body? > > > > > > Bob Netzlof > > > > Is that where that underframe went! > > Son of a gun! > > We are amused. > > > a 40 foot gondola is a 40 foot car. Underframes > > "should" have standard locations for bolsters and > > "mounting" screws if they be through the > bolster/truck > > screw tab. > > > > But, Mantua/Tyco had one twist to many of their > > standard underframes, at least on all I looked at > in > > my collection. They had additional corner screw > holes. > > > > Could it be that the original "car", a Penn Line, > had > > the unfortunate problem, possibly from abuse, > messed > > up tabs for the truck mounting, (a person or > persons > > unknown), swapped the frames to take advantage of > > these pre-drilled corner holes to re-attach a > > Mantua/Tyco underframe to a car body that was > > reinforced with corner blocks or simply by small > > screws into the corner of the car body with a > "gob" of > > some solidifying substance in the frame cavity > > normally occupied by the bolster tab that would > accept > > a drilled and tapped or self tapped screw to hold > the > > trucks on? > > No. > > The body is secured to the frame by two very small > Phillips head self- > tapping screws which pass through holes in the > die-cast underframe > and screw into holes in the two bosses which mate > with recesses in > the underframe. These are some distance, 1/2", maybe > 3/4" inboard of > the truck bolsters. > > The trucks are mounted using screws which apparently > are threaded > into the underframe alone and do not engage any part > of the body. > Leastways, when I remove the two very small screws > noted above, the > body lifts off the underframe. Thus exposed, the > underside of the > body shows no sign of any damage anywhere. No > stripped screw holes, > no blemishes where somebody shaved off a tab or lug, > no globs or > smears of cement. All very pristine looking. > > By and large, the underframe also looks pretty > spiffy (I have some > reservations about the coupler boxes (someone > mounted Kadees) but > aside from that...) No unaccounted for holes, no > sign of butchery > (other than near the coupler boxes). > > It looks very much like the body and underframe were > made for each > other, except the one says "Penn Line", the other > says "Mantua". If > one said "Tyco" and the other "Mantua", I could > understand, but this > isn't that. > > It runs in my mind that Penn Line went bankrupt, or > the owner died, > or some such. Given that, perhaps Mantua picked up > some dies on the > cheap and used them without bothering to erase the > Penn Line name? Or > maybe they bought a truckload of Penn Line castings > and used them, > figuring that no one would read the fine print on > the bottom? > > > Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, That's where the > > missing Mantua/Tyco underframe is now, It's > providing > > a suitable support, (underframe), and truck > mounting > > for a poor hapless Penn Line car that had lost > it's > > integral bolster/body mounting tabs. > > Actually, that's backwards or inside out or some > such. The underframe > is the part with Penn Line cast into its surface, > the body says > Mantua. > > Bob Netzlof > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5605	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/3/2008
Subject: Re: Just saw something

Well, I became the highest bidder in the end. I'm sending the money order out today, and really looking forward to this lot. Looks like a lot of fun! -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: > > Browsing through eBay I noticed this and thought I'd alert the group > in case anyone were interested. > > 22+ Old Estate Wood & Metal HO COACHES-FIX/PARTS DEAL! > Item number: 140210458043 > > No, it's not my sale! > Walter Bayer >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5606	From: wb3iqe	Date: 3/3/2008
Subject: Re: A small puzzle

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > > I'm not clear on a point. Is the plastic body embossed > with the name Mantua? Both names (Mantua on the plastic body casting, Penn Line on the metal underframe casting) are raised letters formed of the same substance as the molding/casting. > > Your idea on the buying of the dies is a good one > though! > Questions are easy. Unfortunately, answers are harder to come by. Bob Netzlof

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5607	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Resurrecting A Dinosaur With A Bit Of A Snag!

Hi All, I'm currently working on rebuilding a Pemco 4-8-2 Mountain into a 4-6-2 Pacific, utilizing of course, a dependable Mantua drive, I originally thought I could use the lead truck from the Mountain, but have since found that the original Pemco truck has too long a wheel base to work with the Mantua mechanism, what I'm in need of is a Mantua lead truck for a Pacific, I will of course, when I go over to Dana's RR Supply tomorrow, ask if he has one lurking in his shop somewhere, chances are he doesn't, does anyone on any of these lists have one they would be willing to part with if Dana doesn't have one??????:o) Gary W Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5608	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Re: Resurrecting A Dinosaur With A Bit Of A Snag!

Speak with Dan at: http://www.yardbirdtrains.com He has a lot of Tyco/Mantua parts. He's my source when I need any of them. Tell him Gerry sent you. Cordially, Gerry D --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm currently working on rebuilding a Pemco 4-8-2 > Mountain into a 4-6-2 Pacific, utilizing of course, > a dependable Mantua drive, I originally thought I > could use the lead truck from the Mountain, but have > since found that the original Pemco truck has too > long a wheel base to work with the Mantua mechanism, > what I'm in need of is a Mantua lead truck for a > Pacific, I will of course, when I go over to Dana's > RR Supply tomorrow, ask if he has one lurking in his > shop somewhere, chances are he doesn't, does anyone > on any of these lists have one they would be willing > to part with if Dana doesn't have one??????:o) > > Gary W > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5609	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation

Hi Everyone, Dallas Mallerich's Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains lists 44 different numbers for Athearn metal boxcars, including the 12 special boxcars. Does anyone know if all 44 of these cars were released in BOTH the first and second generation versions? The early, first-generation cars, as I think everyone knows, come with a wooden floor, sub-roof, and sub ends. The later, second-generation cars are all metal except for the wooden floor. Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this subject. Lou

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5610	From: Gerry	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: don't that frost your cookies!

Some time ago I got two log buggy frames that I believe were made by the old Model Engineering Works. They were an Ebay snag. Just the loose frames. One had a broken cross member in the casting which I fixed. These are the type that would accept a Barnhart Loader on their backs, but needed to install pieces of rail for the loader. I meticulously centered them on my cross feed vise, carefully drilled holes for trucks and couplers, tapped those holes and then cleaned off all the flash got them babies ready to paint and painted em'. I found some rail, drat, not code 70, but I decided to machine the flange down so it would fit. Here I am ready to paint the rail and install it on the cars when something looks wrong. (cookie frosting follows...) Sure enough, the darn things were made for a Barnhart Loader that was either six and a half foot gauge or they one really goofy error back when they made the tooling for the casting! So I need an opinion here; do I machine new grooves for the rail at standard gauge and fill in the old grooves with either putty or a long Plastruct frame member? or do I leave em' like they are and my Barnhart Loaders don't fit on them? Cordially, Gerry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5611	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Re: Resurrecting A Dinosaur With A Bit Of A Snag!

Hi Gerry, Why didn't I think of that? I know he carries a lot of parts for Mantua and Bowser as well.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:57:12 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Resurrecting A Dinosaur With A Bit Of A Snag! Speak with Dan at: http://www.yardbird trains.com He has a lot of Tyco/Mantua parts. He's my source when I need any of them. Tell him Gerry sent you. Cordially, Gerry D --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm currently working on rebuilding a Pemco 4-8-2 > Mountain into a 4-6-2 Pacific, utilizing of course, > a dependable Mantua drive, I originally thought I > could use the lead truck from the Mountain, but have > since found that the original Pemco truck has too > long a wheel base to work with the Mantua mechanism, > what I'm in need of is a Mantua lead truck for a > Pacific, I will of course, when I go over to Dana's > RR Supply tomorrow, ask if he has one lurking in his > shop somewhere, chances are he doesn't, does anyone > on any of these lists have one they would be willing > to part with if Dana doesn't have one??????:o) > > Gary W > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5612	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation

Hey Guys! I have what I believe to be a Mantua pre-war consolidation. Please feel free to comment. I have posted pictures in Album: Mantua Pre-War Brass 2-8-0 Consolidation. Thanks, Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5613	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation

it does look similar to mine--but there are differences. I looked thru MR ads for 1940-41--not advertised then. My catalogs are hiding today-- Yours drives directly from the motor shaft--mine has a different style motor and drives the #2 axle with a flex shaft. Mine has the cast ( or turned from pipe?) boiler, but sheet metal firebox and cab--but these may be the modifications of the builder. Mine has full walschaerts valve gear.gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 2:46 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation > Hey Guys! I have what I believe to be a Mantua pre-war consolidation. > Please feel free to comment. I have posted pictures in Album: Mantua > Pre-War Brass 2-8-0 Consolidation. > > Thanks, > > Sean > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5614	From: Don Grant	Date: 3/4/2008
Subject: Re: Resurrecting A Dinosaur With A Bit Of A Snag!

Have you tried Model Power?  They got all the remaining Mantua Parts. Best, Don Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: Hi All, I'm currently working on rebuilding a Pemco 4-8-2 Mountain into a 4-6-2 Pacific, utilizing of course, a dependable Mantua drive, I originally thought I could use the lead truck from the Mountain, but have since found that the original Pemco truck has too long a wheel base to work with the Mantua mechanism, what I'm in need of is a Mantua lead truck for a Pacific, I will of course, when I go over to Dana's RR Supply tomorrow, ask if he has one lurking in his shop somewhere, chances are he doesn't, does anyone on any of these lists have one they would be willing to part with if Dana doesn't have one??????:o) Gary W Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5615	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation

Sean, I wouldn't be surprised if your conso turns out to be one of the very early Mantua kits. I checked "HO Seeker" and found a 1940 catalog that shows the consolidation. All loco drives have the worm directly on the motor shaft. There are two motors pictured, one similiar to later, post-war motors and a "Dual gauge" motor with a quite large magnet. I'm thinking that the motor in your 2-8-0 is likely one of the first used. In the photo showing the cabs from the back, the other two in the shot have the posr-war type motors and, due to the fact that they are partially in the cab, probably have the flex shaft/gear box drive. The early "dual gauge" motors were too big to fit in the cab which forced the motor to be in the firebox area forward of the cab. This would require the motor shaft mounted worm. I would consider your 2-8-0 a real find. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI Old fart by a great lake --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > it does look similar to mine--but there are differences. I looked thru MR > ads for 1940-41--not advertised then. My catalogs are hiding today-- > > Yours drives directly from the motor shaft--mine has a different style motor > and drives the #2 axle with a flex shaft. Mine has the cast ( or turned from > pipe?) boiler, but sheet metal firebox and cab--but these may be the > modifications of the builder. Mine has full walschaerts valve gear.gj > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 2:46 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation > > > > Hey Guys! I have what I believe to be a Mantua pre-war consolidation. > > Please feel free to comment. I have posted pictures in Album: Mantua > > Pre-War Brass 2-8-0 Consolidation. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5616	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation

Hi John,   Thanks so much for your input. It does look like a lucky find. For two days prior to the bid ending, I was losing sleep thinking I was not going to get it. I kept raising the bid I had set.   As for the drives on my other three Atlantics, they are all the pre-war worm gear on the main drive gear. I have posted new pics of all the drives in my Album: Mantua Brass Atlantics. They also have a large motor, but not quite as large as the one in the consolidation. I have also created a new Album: Mantua Brass Pacifics showing their drives, which are post-war.   Well, got to get ready for work!   Thanks!   Sean John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: Sean, I wouldn't be surprised if your conso turns out to be one of the very early Mantua kits. I checked "HO Seeker" and found a 1940 catalog that shows the consolidation. All loco drives have the worm directly on the motor shaft. There are two motors pictured, one similiar to later, post-war motors and a "Dual gauge" motor with a quite large magnet. I'm thinking that the motor in your 2-8-0 is likely one of the first used. In the photo showing the cabs from the back, the other two in the shot have the posr-war type motors and, due to the fact that they are partially in the cab, probably have the flex shaft/gear box drive. The early "dual gauge" motors were too big to fit in the cab which forced the motor to be in the firebox area forward of the cab. This would require the motor shaft mounted worm. I would consider your 2-8-0 a real find. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI Old fart by a great lake --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > > it does look similar to mine--but there are differences. I looked thru MR > ads for 1940-41--not advertised then. My catalogs are hiding today-- > > Yours drives directly from the motor shaft--mine has a different style motor > and drives the #2 axle with a flex shaft. Mine has the cast ( or turned from > pipe?) boiler, but sheet metal firebox and cab--but these may be the > modifications of the builder. Mine has full walschaerts valve gear.gj > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ ...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 2:46 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation > > > > Hey Guys! I have what I believe to be a Mantua pre-war consolidation. > > Please feel free to comment. I have posted pictures in Album: Mantua > > Pre-War Brass 2-8-0 Consolidation. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5617	From: wb3iqe	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > Sure enough, the darn things were made for a Barnhart Loader that was > either six and a half foot gauge or they one really goofy error back > when they made the tooling for the casting! I just got a copy of Thomas Taber's Volume 14 of "The Logging Railroad Era of Lumbering in Pennsylvania". There on page 1423 one finds data on the Model 10 Barnhart Loader. It says the gauge of the track on cars was 6 feet. It's not completely clear from the context whether the data are for all Model 10 Loaders, or just for the Model 10 at the PA Lumber Museum. My first impression was that it applys to all Model 10 Loaders. Bob Netzlof

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5618	From: jay matz	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!

Bob Here is a Barnhart loader site talks about the #10 & #12 loader http://www.steaminthewoods.com/BarnhartLoader/barnhart.htm Any photos that I have seen from the end the gauge of the loader was wider than the railroad I think this is true for the American log loader also. Jay Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5619	From: jay matz	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!

Try this site http://www.steaminthewoods.com/index.html jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote: Bob Here is a Barnhart loader site talks about the #10 & #12 loader http://www.steamint hewoods.com/ BarnhartLoader/ barnhart. htm Any photos that I have seen from the end the gauge of the loader was wider than the railroad I think this is true for the American log loader also. Jay Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5620	From: jay matz	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!

Bob sorry about the dead links in web search  barnhart log loader  the second one down takes you to the barnhart page  on the bottom of that page click on home that will take you to a whole list of logging stuff. Jay Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5621	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Loggers

I am not the most familiar person when it comes to particular models of the various log loaders but I believe we are talking about the type that straddled the rails allowing the empties to be pushed or pulled under the loader. In which case the wheels used to load and tranport the machine would have to be wide enough to clear said cars. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5622	From: jay matz	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: Loggers

John That was A McGriffert Loader The wheels that the loader moved on were pulled up under the platform to give the empty cars clearance. Jay John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: I am not the most familiar person when it comes to particular models of the various log loaders but I believe we are talking about the type that straddled the rails allowing the empties to be pushed or pulled under the loader. In which case the wheels used to load and tranport the machine would have to be wide enough to clear said cars. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5623	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: Loggers

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote: > > > John > That was A McGriffert Loader > The wheels that the loader moved on were pulled up under the platform to give the empty cars clearance. > Jay Jay, you are indeed correct (which means that I, indeed, am incorrect). I have been looking at the photos on the st http://www.steaminthewoods.com/BarnhartLoader/barnhart.htm and after enlarging them, it appears that the rail for the loader is about as wide as possible, definitly wider than the track gauge. So the 6 to 6&1/2 foot gauge would be right. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5624	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/5/2008
Subject: Re: don't that frost your cookies!

Thank you ALL, Gentlemen, It's my error on the Barnhart. I have about 6 of them by IHC and by my not doing the appropriate research, I assumed that to be the proper gauge of the track on the cars. The hard to find IHC log buggies are of that gauge. The log buggies in question are not as old as I had thought they were. They are still available and not Model Engineering Works cars. So to make a long story short, I felt it was ok to make such a drastic alteration on the car and milled out the cross members on the log car to match the gauge of the loader and installed rails on one. In retrospect, I should have attacked a few of the IHC Barnhart loaders and changed them to a proper wider gauge. This also changes everything in a project I have in the works to kitbash numerous log buggies from other car frames. Maybe I will just accept the standard gauge as a norm on my railroad due to clearance problems. If this is the chosen path, I'll have a lot less problems with the interchange tracks where the transfer of logs to off-line gondolas is to be simulated. Thank you all very much for the research on my behalf. Also the SteamInTheWoods.com site is a very good site, almost a "Bible" for logging, I'm glad you mentioned it. I've been there numerous times and even sent him an image that he has online there. Cordially, Gerry D PS: Bob, I have to get there this summer, I promised myself that once before, but now I'm retired, I should be able to do it. It's only a few hours drive from where I'm at near Steamtown. --- wb3iqe <wb3iqe@...> wrote: > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" > <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > > > Sure enough, the darn things were made for a > Barnhart Loader that was > > either six and a half foot gauge or they one > really goofy error back > > when they made the tooling for the casting! > > I just got a copy of Thomas Taber's Volume 14 of > "The Logging Railroad > Era of Lumbering in Pennsylvania". There on page > 1423 one finds data on > the Model 10 Barnhart Loader. It says the gauge of > the track on cars > was 6 feet. > > It's not completely clear from the context whether > the data are for all > Model 10 Loaders, or just for the Model 10 at the PA > Lumber Museum. My > first impression was that it applys to all Model 10 > Loaders. > > Bob Netzlof > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5625	From: nagrod47	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Mantua 4-6-2

I am new to the group and have a question. I was given a Mantua 4-6-2 in AT&SF paint with 53 22 on the cab.It has peeling paint on the boiler, a casting flaw on the boiler and the flashing was never removed. The front pilot has been repaired with plastic cement so I found a replacement on Ebay. One of the :eyelets" for the right side hand rail is missing and I will have to "manufacture" a drawbar, but other than that it seems to be complete. Not bad for a freebie. I got the motor running and that brings me to my first problem. Every time I run it the screw holding the drive gear to the center wheel backs out, causing the drive gear to come loose. I'm lucky and have all the loose parts but have been unsuccessful in getting it to stay in when I replace it. As soon as I run the motor it comes out agin after a few seconds. Can you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong? Thanks in advance Rick Dorgan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5626	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2

Hi, I have a pair of Mantua locomotives doing the same thing. I brought them to my friend who owns the local hobby shop, and has been in HO modeling since the 1950s. He says that on the metal driver wheels, sometimes the pilot holes in the wheels can come enlarged, causing the screw to fit loose, so when you run it, it loosens itself out. I'm going to get new drivers for my old engines myself. Yardbird trains carries these parts. Or does anyone know a way to secure the pins without replacing the driver? I am thinking a dab of epoxy might do it, anyone had success with that? -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nagrod47" <nagrod@...> wrote: > > I am new to the group and have a question. I was given a Mantua 4-6-2 > in AT&SF paint with 53 22 on the cab.It has peeling paint on the > boiler, a casting flaw on the boiler and the flashing was never > removed. The front pilot has been repaired with plastic cement so I > found a replacement on Ebay. One of the :eyelets" for the right side > hand rail is missing and I will have to "manufacture" a drawbar, but > other than that it seems to be complete. Not bad for a freebie. I got > the motor running and that brings me to my first problem. Every time > I run it the screw holding the drive gear to the center wheel backs > out, causing the drive gear to come loose. I'm lucky and have all the > loose parts but have been unsuccessful in getting it to stay in when I > replace it. As soon as I run the motor it comes out agin after a few > seconds. Can you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong? > > Thanks in advance > > Rick Dorgan >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5627	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 - Gear Screw Loosening

To fix loosening screws, use one the many "Lock0Tite" type products. First, make sure there's no oil or lubricant on the threads(either the screw/bolt or the driver) and use one of hte "medium-hold" ones. You can then remove the screw at a later date if desired, whereas epoxy, if it wokrs, may be impossible(or nearly) to remove without damage to the parts.   There are other brands, too.   Just my 2 cents' worth.   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: Hi, I have a pair of Mantua locomotives doing the same thing. I brought them to my friend who owns the local hobby shop, and has been in HO modeling since the 1950s. He says that on the metal driver wheels, sometimes the pilot holes in the wheels can come enlarged, causing the screw to fit loose, so when you run it, it loosens itself out. I'm going to get new drivers for my old engines myself. Yardbird trains carries these parts. Or does anyone know a way to secure the pins without replacing the driver? I am thinking a dab of epoxy might do it, anyone had success with that? -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nagrod47" wrote: > > I am new to the group and have a question. I was given a Mantua 4-6-2 > in AT&SF paint with 53 22 on the cab.It has peeling paint on the > boiler, a casting flaw on the boiler and the flashing was never > removed. The front pilot has been repaired with plastic cement so I > found a replacement on Ebay. One of the :eyelets" for the right side > hand rail is missing and I will have to "manufacture" a drawbar, but > other than that it seems to be complete. Not bad for a freebie. I got > the motor running and that brings me to my first problem. Every time > I run it the screw holding the drive gear to the center wheel backs > out, causing the drive gear to come loose. I'm lucky and have all the > loose parts but have been unsuccessful in getting it to stay in when I > replace it. As soon as I run the motor it comes out agin after a few > seconds. Can you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong? > > Thanks in advance > > Rick Dorgan > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5628	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2

HI Steve: Whatever you decide to do to repair your Mantua engine, DO NOT use epoxy. This is a permanent fix that you won't be able to correct in case the fix -- or something else goes wrong with the engine. Someone suggested using Locktite, which is a very good idea..... Locktite is in the ACC adhesive family of glues, and if you ever need to loosen it and gentle pressure doesn't work, you can always use a "debonder" to loosen things up. Debonders work very well. Some examples of Locktite: "Locktite" Super Glue (apply with a tooth pick) (Henkel Consumer Adhesives, Inc) available at LHS and hardware stores "Super Glue" -- Dollar Store brand -- works well for model RR use Usually comes on a card of 6 tubes for $1.00 "Duro" Quick Gel (ACC gel instead of liquid) - LHS, Home Depot brands. Works well, but curing time is a bit longer than liquid Debonders: Z-7 Debonder (Debonding agent for super glues) (Pacer Technology), sold in most LHS Super Glue Remover (Debonding agent for super glues) (Faucet Queens, Inc). LHS item Most of these items can be acquired either at your LHS or most hardware stores (Home Depot, Ace, Lowes).. Further suggest before using any adhesive, CLEAN the area to be bonded with either white vinegar or denatured alcohol, so the surface is clean and the locktite sticks. For cleaning tight areas, use a Q-tip, and let dry ("tight areas" as in a small screw hole). Best of luck, Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5629	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2

Screw holding the drive gear? All I have seen were a press fit on a knurled axle. If the gear is loose on the axle it is a major fix--you might try Model Power for a replacement. If crankpin screws are coming out, something must be binding to cause them to unscrew. They should be 0-80 shouldered hex head screws. The main crankpin is a longer 0-80 hex head screw with two spacers on it. The longer inner spacer should have the eccentric crank clamped on it by the screw. Precision Scale has a set of drawbars of varying lengths that match the posts on the Mantua locos and tenders. Is the worm mounted directly on the motor shaft, or with a separate housing and bearings? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "nagrod47" <nagrod@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:09 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua 4-6-2 >I am new to the group and have a question. I was given a Mantua 4-6-2 > in AT&SF paint with 53 22 on the cab.It has peeling paint on the > boiler, a casting flaw on the boiler and the flashing was never > removed. The front pilot has been repaired with plastic cement so I > found a replacement on Ebay. One of the :eyelets" for the right side > hand rail is missing and I will have to "manufacture" a drawbar, but > other than that it seems to be complete. Not bad for a freebie. I got > the motor running and that brings me to my first problem. Every time > I run it the screw holding the drive gear to the center wheel backs > out, causing the drive gear to come loose. I'm lucky and have all the > loose parts but have been unsuccessful in getting it to stay in when I > replace it. As soon as I run the motor it comes out agin after a few > seconds. Can you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong? > > Thanks in advance > > Rick Dorgan > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5630	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2

HOLD ON THERE!!!   "Lock-Tite" does make a super-glue, but is not synonymous with "super glue"  Use only the "Thread Locker" type of Lock-Tite on screws It is intended to be taken apart. DO NOT use any super glue on screws.  Guaranteed to break the screw off in the hole.  The thread lockers can be loosened with a little heat--as a soldering iron.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua 4-6-2 HI Steve: Whatever you decide to do to repair your Mantua engine, DO NOT use epoxy. This is a permanent fix that you won't be able to correct in case the fix -- or something else goes wrong with the engine. Someone suggested using Locktite, which is a very good idea..... Locktite is in the ACC adhesive family of glues, and if you ever need to loosen it and gentle pressure doesn't work, you can always use a "debonder" to loosen things up. Debonders work very well. Some examples of Locktite: "Locktite" Super Glue (apply with a tooth pick) (Henkel Consumer Adhesives, Inc) available at LHS and hardware stores "Super Glue" -- Dollar Store brand -- works well for model RR use Usually comes on a card of 6 tubes for $1.00 "Duro" Quick Gel (ACC gel instead of liquid) - LHS, Home Depot brands. Works well, but curing time is a bit longer than liquid Debonders: Z-7 Debonder (Debonding agent for super glues) (Pacer Technology), sold in most LHS Super Glue Remover (Debonding agent for super glues) (Faucet Queens, Inc). LHS item Most of these items can be acquired either at your LHS or most hardware stores (Home Depot, Ace, Lowes).. Further suggest before using any adhesive, CLEAN the area to be bonded with either white vinegar or denatured alcohol, so the surface is clean and the locktite sticks. For cleaning tight areas, use a Q-tip, and let dry ("tight areas" as in a small screw hole). Best of luck, Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5631	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 RE:HOLD ON THERE!!!

Very correct! Loc-Tite is a darn good product! The government uses it on a myriad of items, one that comes to mind is repair of navigational instruments in aircraft. I had a problem repairing a Mantua 2-8-2 that had a broken screw side rod screw, the rest of the side rods were also worn, but removing the screws was impossible because someone used an ACC type of adhesive on them. I found out too late, after breaking two more screws. I just said the heck with it and replaced all the drivers with ones from http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/ I would go with the Loc-Tite. I'm sure you will find other uses for it as well. I suggest for your application: 222 Threadlocker Low Strength/Small Screw Low strength threadlocker. Designed for precision metal fasteners under 3/4". Protects threads from rust and corrosion. Removable with hand tools. Available Worldwide Typical Applications Set screws, adjustment screws, calibration screws, meters, gauges. Part # 21463 - Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small Screw, 10 ml Bottle Cordially, Gerry D Dan at Yardbirdtrains also has hand rail standoffs for the boiler too. --- Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: > HOLD ON THERE!!! "Lock-Tite" does make a > super-glue, but is not synonymous with "super glue" > Use only the "Thread Locker" type of Lock-Tite on > screws It is intended to be taken apart. DO NOT use > any super glue on screws. Guaranteed to break the > screw off in the hole. The thread lockers can be > loosened with a little heat--as a soldering iron. > gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: WK2SHR@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 3:32 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua 4-6-2 > > > HI Steve: > > Whatever you decide to do to repair your Mantua > engine, DO NOT use > epoxy. This is a permanent fix that you won't be > able to correct in case > the fix -- or something else goes wrong with the > engine. > > Someone suggested using Locktite, which is a very > good idea..... > Locktite is in the ACC adhesive family of glues, > and if you ever > need to loosen it and gentle pressure doesn't > work, you can always > use a "debonder" to loosen things up. Debonders > work very well. > > Some examples of Locktite: > > "Locktite" Super Glue (apply with a tooth pick) > (Henkel Consumer Adhesives, Inc) available at LHS > and hardware stores > > "Super Glue" -- Dollar Store brand -- works well > for model RR use > Usually comes on a card of 6 tubes for $1.00 > > "Duro" Quick Gel (ACC gel instead of liquid) - > LHS, Home Depot brands. > Works well, but curing time is a bit longer than > liquid > > Debonders: > > Z-7 Debonder (Debonding agent for super glues) > (Pacer Technology), sold in most LHS > > Super Glue Remover (Debonding agent for super > glues) > (Faucet Queens, Inc). LHS item > > Most of these items can be acquired either at your > LHS or most hardware > stores (Home Depot, Ace, Lowes).. > > Further suggest before using any adhesive, CLEAN > the area to be bonded > with either white vinegar or denatured alcohol, so > the surface is clean and > the locktite sticks. For cleaning tight areas, use > a Q-tip, and let dry ("tight > areas" as in a small screw hole). > > Best of luck, > > Dave F > > > > > > > ************** > It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL > Money & Finance. > > (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5632	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2

Hi GJ: That's exactly "why" I also mentioned using a "debonder" if one is inclined to use any of the super glues......you can "undo" the "superness" of the super glue very quickly, with no risk of damage to screws or screw heads. Works everytime............the debonders dissolve the super glue, making them easy to undo the work, if it ever becomes necessary. Debonders work quickly -- in a few seconds. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5633	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2

Blue Loctite from the hardware  store might be worth a try.   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: railwaymodeler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:43 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua 4-6-2 Hi, I have a pair of Mantua locomotives doing the same thing. I brought them to my friend who owns the local hobby shop, and has been in HO modeling since the 1950s. He says that on the metal driver wheels, sometimes the pilot holes in the wheels can come enlarged, causing the screw to fit loose, so when you run it, it loosens itself out. I'm going to get new drivers for my old engines myself. Yardbird trains carries these parts. Or does anyone know a way to secure the pins without replacing the driver? I am thinking a dab of epoxy might do it, anyone had success with that? -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "nagrod47" <nagrod@...> wrote: > > I am new to the group and have a question. I was given a Mantua 4-6-2 > in AT&SF paint with 53 22 on the cab.It has peeling paint on the > boiler, a casting flaw on the boiler and the flashing was never > removed. The front pilot has been repaired with plastic cement so I > found a replacement on Ebay. One of the :eyelets" for the right side > hand rail is missing and I will have to "manufacture" a drawbar, but > other than that it seems to be complete. Not bad for a freebie. I got > the motor running and that brings me to my first problem. Every time > I run it the screw holding the drive gear to the center wheel backs > out, causing the drive gear to come loose. I'm lucky and have all the > loose parts but have been unsuccessful in getting it to stay in when I > replace it. As soon as I run the motor it comes out agin after a few > seconds. Can you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong? > > Thanks in advance > > Rick Dorgan >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5634	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/7/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2

The red, being the lighter-duty, is preferred for the smaller screws--down in the model sizes.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 8:15 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua 4-6-2 Blue Loctite from the hardware  store might be worth a try.   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: railwaymodeler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:43 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua 4-6-2 Hi, I have a pair of Mantua locomotives doing the same thing. I brought them to my friend who owns the local hobby shop, and has been in HO modeling since the 1950s. He says that on the metal driver wheels, sometimes the pilot holes in the wheels can come enlarged, causing the screw to fit loose, so when you run it, it loosens itself out. I'm going to get new drivers for my old engines myself. Yardbird trains carries these parts. Or does anyone know a way to secure the pins without replacing the driver? I am thinking a dab of epoxy might do it, anyone had success with that? -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "nagrod47" <nagrod@...> wrote: > > I am new to the group and have a question. I was given a Mantua 4-6-2 > in AT&SF paint with 53 22 on the cab.It has peeling paint on the > boiler, a casting flaw on the boiler and the flashing was never > removed. The front pilot has been repaired with plastic cement so I > found a replacement on Ebay. One of the :eyelets" for the right side > hand rail is missing and I will have to "manufacture" a drawbar, but > other than that it seems to be complete. Not bad for a freebie. I got > the motor running and that brings me to my first problem. Every time > I run it the screw holding the drive gear to the center wheel backs > out, causing the drive gear to come loose. I'm lucky and have all the > loose parts but have been unsuccessful in getting it to stay in when I > replace it. As soon as I run the motor it comes out agin after a few > seconds. Can you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong? > > Thanks in advance > > Rick Dorgan >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5635	From: texpearson@AOL.com	Date: 3/7/2008
Subject: Re: Holding small screws

I asked the same question on the Repower and Regear list a year ago and someone recommended using Elmer's white glue.   Tom in Texas It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5636	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/7/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 RE:HOLD ON THERE!!!

Just an FYI, Loctite, Superglue, etc.  all of this stuff will come undone with heat.  Just apply a soldering iron to it and it will either unscrew or fall out/off. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: gerard_sr@... Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:49:07 -0800 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua 4-6-2 RE:HOLD ON THERE!!! Very correct! Loc-Tite is a darn good product! The government uses it on a myriad of items, one that comes to mind is repair of navigational instruments in aircraft. I had a problem repairing a Mantua 2-8-2 that had a broken screw side rod screw, the rest of the side rods were also worn, but removing the screws was impossible because someone used an ACC type of adhesive on them. I found out too late, after breaking two more screws. I just said the heck with it and replaced all the drivers with ones from http://www.yardbird trains.com/ I would go with the Loc-Tite. I'm sure you will find other uses for it as well. I suggest for your application: 222 Threadlocker Low Strength/Small Screw Low strength threadlocker. Designed for precision metal fasteners under 3/4". Protects threads from rust and corrosion. Removable with hand tools. Available Worldwide Typical Applications Set screws, adjustment screws, calibration screws, meters, gauges. Part # 21463 - Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small Screw, 10 ml Bottle Cordially, Gerry D Dan at Yardbirdtrains also has hand rail standoffs for the boiler too. --- Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: > HOLD ON THERE!!! "Lock-Tite" does make a > super-glue, but is not synonymous with "super glue" > Use only the "Thread Locker" type of Lock-Tite on > screws It is intended to be taken apart. DO NOT use > any super glue on screws. Guaranteed to break the > screw off in the hole. The thread lockers can be > loosened with a little heat--as a soldering iron. > gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: WK2SHR@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 3:32 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua 4-6-2 > > > HI Steve: > > Whatever you decide to do to repair your Mantua > engine, DO NOT use > epoxy. This is a permanent fix that you won't be > able to correct in case > the fix -- or something else goes wrong with the > engine. > > Someone suggested using Locktite, which is a very > good idea..... > Locktite is in the ACC adhesive family of glues, > and if you ever > need to loosen it and gentle pressure doesn't > work, you can always > use a "debonder" to loosen things up. Debonders > work very well. > > Some examples of Locktite: > > "Locktite" Super Glue (apply with a tooth pick) > (Henkel Consumer Adhesives, Inc) available at LHS > and hardware stores > > "Super Glue" -- Dollar Store brand -- works well > for model RR use > Usually comes on a card of 6 tubes for $1.00 > > "Duro" Quick Gel (ACC gel instead of liquid) - > LHS, Home Depot brands. > Works well, but curing time is a bit longer than > liquid > > Debonders: > > Z-7 Debonder (Debonding agent for super glues) > (Pacer Technology), sold in most LHS > > Super Glue Remover (Debonding agent for super > glues) > (Faucet Queens, Inc). LHS item > > Most of these items can be acquired either at your > LHS or most hardware > stores (Home Depot, Ace, Lowes).. > > Further suggest before using any adhesive, CLEAN > the area to be bonded > with either white vinegar or denatured alcohol, so > the surface is clean and > the locktite sticks. For cleaning tight areas, use > a Q-tip, and let dry ("tight > areas" as in a small screw hole). > > Best of luck, > > Dave F > > > > > > > ************ ** > It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL > Money & Finance. > > (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001) > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5637	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/7/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2

WK2SHR@... wrote: > Hi GJ: > > That's exactly "why" I also mentioned using a "debonder" if one is > inclined to use any of the super glues......you can "undo" the > "superness" of the super glue very quickly, with no risk of damage > to screws or screw heads. Works everytime............the debonders > dissolve the super glue, making them easy to undo the work, if > it ever becomes necessary. Debonders work quickly -- in a few > seconds. The usual solvent for loosening super glues is acetone. Many common nail polish removers have this as the main ingredient, so it's easy to find at the local drug store or market in the cosmetics section. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5638	From: erieberk	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation

Hi Lou, Had to re-read your question twice as the first time around, when I read "second generation," I immediately had in mind those later-production cars which had a one-piece shell of the both sides and the sub-roof as one stamping. As far as I know, although a few of the regular 40' AAR roof single door box cars used this construction later on, this construction was mainly reserved for the later production of some of the "Special" 40' AAR roof box cars and the round roof cars. Your question no doubt refers to the standard (AAR roof) 40' boxcars of the "mid-generation" (or transitional generation), some of which used metal floors, etc., in place of the early wood floors and wooden substructure components. I think its safe to say that none of the uncataloged (Central of Georgia, Great Northern Orange, Lehigh Valley, Soo and Southern) ever had anything other than wooden components. As for the rest of them, I really can't say off the top of my head and it would be quite an undertaking to look through hundreds of kits for me to find out which ones did and which ones didn't use a metal floor at one time. I'm fairly certain though, that any kits which did use the all metal construction also never duplicated the side numbers of the earlier versions. I'll keep this question in mind though, next time I go through that manufacturer. Dallas Mallerich never addressed that issue, and it never occurred to me to bring that subject up at the time the book was being put together. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > Dallas Mallerich's Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains lists 44 > different numbers for Athearn metal boxcars, including the 12 special > boxcars. Does anyone know if all 44 of these cars were released in BOTH the > first and second generation versions? The early, first-generation cars, as > I think everyone knows, come with a wooden floor, sub-roof, and sub ends. > The later, second-generation cars are all metal except for the wooden floor. > Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this subject. > > Lou >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5639	From: Rick Dorgan	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2

Thanks to everyone for all the input. I'll let you know the outcome. I have a box full of old steam and diesel locomotives which are in various states of repair so I will be posting again. All this is to start gearing up for retirement which is not too far over the horizon! Thanks Rick Dorgan --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: > > WK2SHR@... wrote: > > Hi GJ: > > > > That's exactly "why" I also mentioned using a "debonder" if one is > > inclined to use any of the super glues......you can "undo" the > > "superness" of the super glue very quickly, with no risk of damage > > to screws or screw heads. Works everytime............the debonders > > dissolve the super glue, making them easy to undo the work, if > > it ever becomes necessary. Debonders work quickly -- in a few > > seconds. > > The usual solvent for loosening super glues is acetone. Many common > nail polish removers have this as the main ingredient, so it's easy to > find at the local drug store or market in the cosmetics section. > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5640	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation

Hi Ray,     Thanks for your reply and for the information.  You’re right that what I meant by second generation are the cars without the wooden sub-ends and sub roof.  The metal sub roof on these cars (with the rivet detail on each side) is a separate component as is the metal floor pan into which the floor (the only remaining wooden part) fits.  Am I right that you are describing a third generation in which the separate part containing the rivet detail was eliminated and that detail was incorporated into the single, three-sided sheet-metal component that includes both sides?     I’ve never run across an all-metal version of the unnumbered cars you mention nor of the A-121 NKP.  Accounting for the various generations of Athearn metal boxcar production would be a lot of work, although I wish the Mallerich book had included some information on this subject.  The other side of the same question, of course, is whether certain cars were never produced in the early version with the four wooden components.     Best wishes.                                                                                                                                                     Lou On 3/8/08 8:58 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Hi Lou,  Had to re-read your question twice as the first time around, when I read "second generation," I immediately had in mind those later-production cars which had a one-piece shell of the both sides and the sub-roof as one stamping.  As far as I know, although a few of the regular 40' AAR roof single door box cars used this construction later on, this construction was mainly reserved for the later production of some of the "Special" 40' AAR roof box cars and the round roof cars.  Your question no doubt refers to the standard (AAR roof) 40' boxcars of the "mid-generation" (or transitional generation), some of which used metal floors, etc., in place of the early wood floors and wooden substructure components.  I think its safe to say that none of the uncataloged (Central of Georgia, Great Northern Orange, Lehigh Valley, Soo and Southern) ever had anything other than wooden components.   As for the rest of them, I really can't say off the top of my head and it would be quite an undertaking to look through hundreds of kits for me to find out which ones did and which ones didn't use a metal floor at one time.  I'm fairly certain though, that any kits which did use the all metal construction also never duplicated the side numbers of the earlier versions.  I'll keep this question in mind though, next time I go through that manufacturer.  Dallas Mallerich never addressed that issue, and it never occurred to me to bring that subject up at the time the book was being put together.  Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > >     Dallas Mallerich's Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains lists 44 > different numbers for Athearn metal boxcars, including the 12 special > boxcars.  Does anyone know if all 44 of these cars were released in BOTH the > first and second generation versions?  The early, first-generation cars, as > I think everyone knows, come with a wooden floor, sub-roof, and sub ends. > The later, second-generation cars are all metal except for the wooden floor. >     Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this subject. > >                                         Lou >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5641	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Holding small screws

Tom, If you mean holding small, non-ferrous, screws in a screwdriver as you try to get it into a barely accessible hole, I use a paste that I got in a doll-house store many years ago (and it's as good today as it was then - really lasts) when I was adding the candelabras, curtain rods, etc. to a doll house I assembled for my daughters. Mine is labeled "Under Stickum, Secures Crafts-Canoles etc." It gives the address as Box 9247 RD 9, Reading, PA 19605. With steel screws a magnetized screwdriver works great. Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, texpearson@... wrote: > > I asked the same question on the Repower and Regear list a year ago and > someone recommended using Elmer's white glue. > > Tom in Texas > > > > **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & > Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5642	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Holding small screws

If I may jump in to the conversation, I have been doing repairs on brass locomotives for many years, and I find that if I dip the screw driver tip into my solder flux (Paste type) tin, it will hold the screw once placed on the tip. This allows you to get the screw into tight places without it falling off, until you get it started into the hole. Magnetic holders do not always work since many of the miniature screws are made of brass. Mechanical holders are usually to large to hold any smaller than a 2-56 size screw.   Well, that's my two cents.   Brian L It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5643	From: Andrew Bell	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Mantua: locktite

Excuse me on the Locktite, but the red is NOT the light duty. Red needs heat to release, blue will release with a little pressure. When building car motors red is used on the flywheel to prevent the flywheel from coming off, wheareas blue is used opn the clutch plate so it can be changed easily. There is also a green that is used to lock shafts in place, it will also release with a little heat. Therefore blue is the one to use on these small screws and can be purchased at a good hardware store. By the way I also use the blue on my spectical frame screws so as to not loose my lenses. Andy Bell Portland OR

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5644	From: earlyrail	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: FS Central Lines kits

At the local train show today I ran across three of the old Central Lines kits. 2 of Virginia & Truckee combine 1 of Wagner's Sleeping Car. $35.00 post paid if anyone is interested Please reply off line. Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5645	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite

Mr bell is right about RED, to hold a screw in a tapped hole, (not at the end of a screwdriver for those that just got wind of this), I wrote: I suggest for your application: 222 Threadlocker Low Strength/Small Screw Low strength threadlocker. Designed for precision metal fasteners under 3/4". Protects threads from rust and corrosion. Removable with hand tools. Available Worldwide Typical Applications Set screws, adjustment screws, calibration screws, meters, gauges. Part # 21463 - Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small Screw, 10 ml Bottle. The link is below if it works in your mail reader, if not get to loctite.com , select USA, pick any product to get the search button at the bottom and then type in 21463. Then select the first hit that says: Threadlocker 222 Low Strength (21463 is the part number for the smallest bottle they have listed) http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/index.cfm?pageid=19&verityspider=1&layout=6&productline=222&path=222%20Threadlocker%20Low%20Strength%2FSmall%20Screw(222) Physical color they say is purple. Good old Elmers may work as someone suggested. But the proper product for metel to metal "instrument like" locking is Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small Screw. Gerry --- Andrew Bell <belsonic@...> wrote: > Excuse me on the Locktite, but the red is NOT the > light duty. Red > needs heat to release, blue will release with a > little pressure. When > building car motors red is used on the flywheel to > prevent the > flywheel from coming off, wheareas blue is used opn > the clutch plate > so it can be changed easily. There is also a green > that is used to > lock shafts in place, it will also release with a > little heat. > Therefore blue is the one to use on these small > screws and can be > purchased at a good hardware store. By the way I > also use the blue on > my spectical frame screws so as to not loose my > lenses. > > Andy Bell > Portland OR > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5646	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/8/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite

OK--that's it-- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Bell" <belsonic@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:27 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua: locktite > Excuse me on the Locktite, but the red is NOT the light duty. Red > needs heat to release, blue will release with a little pressure. When > building car motors red is used on the flywheel to prevent the > flywheel from coming off, wheareas blue is used opn the clutch plate > so it can be changed easily. There is also a green that is used to > lock shafts in place, it will also release with a little heat. > Therefore blue is the one to use on these small screws and can be > purchased at a good hardware store. By the way I also use the blue on > my spectical frame screws so as to not loose my lenses. > > Andy Bell > Portland OR > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5647	From: FEZANDPAZ@aol.com	Date: 3/9/2008
Subject: Mantua: locktite

Lock tite use to make a purple liquid for small fasteners but I can't find any info about it. glad I still have a couple of bottles left!   Lock tite is also available in stick form which can be handy for small applications or large.   Jim Foley  It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5648	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/9/2008
Subject: Weekly Withlacoochee River Report

Here we go again, its time again for the Weekly Withlacoochee River Report, Didn't get much done this week, as I have been having one heck of a time at work, so time as they say, is becoming an issue with the railroad, I will make time for my railroad as well as my other obligations however, work be darned!!!! This week we had the final train sale of the season at Dana's, its a sale, or model train flea market we have every month during the snow bird season, these sales happen from October to March, on a once a month basis, we do have fun with it, and in this report I take us all back to Dana's on what was a very windy Saturday, that wind was also quite cold, there is a bonus video here as well, as a 58 Bel Air pulled up in the strip center next door, so naturally I got some shots of that one, in. http://youtube.com/watch?v=xps33J3VrrQ Enjoy Gary W Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5649	From: erieberk	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation

Lou, The one-piece-stamping (2 sides + sub roof) AAR roof cars had an additional sub roof between the one-piece stamping and the actual roof. The sub roof of the one-piece stamping holding the both sides was only for production/manufacturing purposes to make that whole stamping as integral. This sub roof did not show in the final construction of the kit. The second, separate (sandwiched) sub roof was layered between this and the main (actual) roof; there were 3 layers of metal in the final contruction of the roof. This second sub roof did show its edges along the length of the car sides, with the main roof fitting over it. It did not have the rivet details though, this detail was stamped in the main roof, and the edges of that second sub roof were smooth (it showed about 1/16" of edge along the side of the roof line, with the roof fitting over it). At least some of these cars still used a combination wood & metal stamping floor (with metal sub ends). The round roof box and auto cars had only the sub roof of the 3-piece stamping (2 sides and joining sub roof). These cars did not have an additional sub roof that showed it edges along the roof line where the roof meets the car sides. Instead, the round roof fit directly over this stamping and slipped down over the top edges of the car sides (unlike the AAR roof, this roof is wider than the width of the car-sides/sub-roof stamping, and of course the rivet detail is also stamped into this main roof. At least some of these cars had a combo wood and stamped metal floor as well, with metal sub ends. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for your reply and for the information. You¹re right that what I > meant by second generation are the cars without the wooden sub-ends and sub > roof. The metal sub roof on these cars (with the rivet detail on each side) > is a separate component as is the metal floor pan into which the floor (the > only remaining wooden part) fits. Am I right that you are describing a > third generation in which the separate part containing the rivet detail was > eliminated and that detail was incorporated into the single, three- sided > sheet-metal component that includes both sides? > I¹ve never run across an all-metal version of the unnumbered cars you > mention nor of the A-121 NKP. Accounting for the various generations of > Athearn metal boxcar production would be a lot of work, although I wish the > Mallerich book had included some information on this subject. The other > side of the same question, of course, is whether certain cars were never > produced in the early version with the four wooden components. > Best wishes. > > > Lou > > > On 3/8/08 8:58 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Lou, Had to re-read your question twice as the first time around, > > when I read "second generation," I immediately had in mind those > > later-production cars which had a one-piece shell of the both sides > > and the sub-roof as one stamping. As far as I know, although a few > > of the regular 40' AAR roof single door box cars used this > > construction later on, this construction was mainly reserved for the > > later production of some of the "Special" 40' AAR roof box cars and > > the round roof cars. Your question no doubt refers to the standard > > (AAR roof) 40' boxcars of the "mid-generation" (or transitional > > generation), some of which used metal floors, etc., in place of the > > early wood floors and wooden substructure components. I think its > > safe to say that none of the uncataloged (Central of Georgia, Great > > Northern Orange, Lehigh Valley, Soo and Southern) ever had anything > > other than wooden components. > > > > As for the rest of them, I really can't say off the top of my head > > and it would be quite an undertaking to look through hundreds of kits > > for me to find out which ones did and which ones didn't use a metal > > floor at one time. I'm fairly certain though, that any kits which > > did use the all metal construction also never duplicated the side > > numbers of the earlier versions. I'll keep this question in mind > > though, next time I go through that manufacturer. Dallas Mallerich > > never addressed that issue, and it never occurred to me to bring that > > subject up at the time the book was being put together. Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Everyone, > >> > > >> > Dallas Mallerich's Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains lists 44 > >> > different numbers for Athearn metal boxcars, including the 12 > > special > >> > boxcars. Does anyone know if all 44 of these cars were released in > > BOTH the > >> > first and second generation versions? The early, first- generation > > cars, as > >> > I think everyone knows, come with a wooden floor, sub-roof, and sub > > ends. > >> > The later, second-generation cars are all metal except for the > > wooden floor. > >> > Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this subject. > >> > > >> > Lou > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5650	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Boxcars--First and Second Generation

Hi Ray,     The detailed description in your first paragraph matches what I referred to in my original question as a second-generation AAR boxcar.  My only uncertainty relates to your comment that “the edges of that second sub roof were smooth.”  As I look at the side of the second generation car I’m working on at present (Pacemaker), I see two lines of rivet detail, one on the car roof and a second one below that on the sub roof or, as per your description, the separate piece that is sandwiched between the roof and the one-piece side component.  (Our correspondence has made me aware that it’s difficult to translate relatively simple visual configurations into plain English.)     My belief was that the car we’re both describing was the only variation after the car with the four-part wooden skeleton.  Your initial reply to my question seemed to describe another, and perhaps later, variation that eliminated the sandwiched sub roof with the rivet detail that shows on the finished car.     Best wishes.                                                                                                                                         Lou On 3/10/08 9:41 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:     Lou,  The one-piece-stamping (2 sides + sub roof) AAR roof cars had an additional sub roof between the one-piece stamping and the actual roof.  The sub roof of the one-piece stamping holding the both sides was only for production/manufacturing purposes to make that whole stamping as integral.  This sub roof did not show in the final construction of the kit.  The second, separate (sandwiched) sub roof was layered between this and the main (actual) roof; there were 3 layers of metal in the final contruction of the roof.  This second sub roof did show its edges along the length of the car sides, with the main roof fitting over it.  It did not have the rivet details though, this detail was stamped in the main roof, and the edges of that second sub roof were smooth (it showed about 1/16" of edge along the side of the roof line, with the roof fitting over it).  At least some of these cars still used a combination wood & metal stamping floor (with metal sub ends). The round roof box and auto cars had only the sub roof of the 3-piece stamping (2 sides and joining sub roof).  These cars did not have an additional sub roof that showed it edges along the roof line where the roof meets the car sides.  Instead, the round roof fit directly over this stamping and slipped down over the top edges of the car sides (unlike the AAR roof, this roof is wider than the width of the car-sides/sub-roof stamping, and of course the rivet detail is also stamped into this main roof.  At least some of these cars had a combo wood and stamped metal floor as well, with metal sub ends.  Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > >     Thanks for your reply and for the information.  You’re right that what I > meant by second generation are the cars without the wooden sub-ends and sub > roof.  The metal sub roof on these cars (with the rivet detail on each side) > is a separate component as is the metal floor pan into which the floor (the > only remaining wooden part) fits.  Am I right that you are describing a > third generation in which the separate part containing the rivet detail was > eliminated and that detail was incorporated into the single, three- sided > sheet-metal component that includes both sides? >     I’ve never run across an all-metal version of the unnumbered cars you > mention nor of the A-121 NKP.  Accounting for the various generations of > Athearn metal boxcar production would be a lot of work, although I wish the > Mallerich book had included some information on this subject.  The other > side of the same question, of course, is whether certain cars were never > produced in the early version with the four wooden components. >     Best wishes. > >                     > Lou > > > On 3/8/08 8:58 AM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > >   > >   > >   > > > > Hi Lou,  Had to re-read your question twice as the first time around, > > when I read "second generation," I immediately had in mind those > > later-production cars which had a one-piece shell of the both sides > > and the sub-roof as one stamping.  As far as I know, although a few > > of the regular 40' AAR roof single door box cars used this > > construction later on, this construction was mainly reserved for the > > later production of some of the "Special" 40' AAR roof box cars and > > the round roof cars.  Your question no doubt refers to the standard > > (AAR roof) 40' boxcars of the "mid-generation" (or transitional > > generation), some of which used metal floors, etc., in place of the > > early wood floors and wooden substructure components.  I think its > > safe to say that none of the uncataloged (Central of Georgia, Great > > Northern Orange, Lehigh Valley, Soo and Southern) ever had anything > > other than wooden components. > > > > As for the rest of them, I really can't say off the top of my head > > and it would be quite an undertaking to look through hundreds of kits > > for me to find out which ones did and which ones didn't use a metal > > floor at one time.  I'm fairly certain though, that any kits which > > did use the all metal construction also never duplicated the side > > numbers of the earlier versions.  I'll keep this question in mind > > though, next time I go through that manufacturer.  Dallas Mallerich > > never addressed that issue, and it never occurred to me to bring that > > subject up at the time the book was being put together.  Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Everyone, > >> > > >> >     Dallas Mallerich's Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains lists 44 > >> > different numbers for Athearn metal boxcars, including the 12 > > special > >> > boxcars.  Does anyone know if all 44 of these cars were released in > > BOTH the > >> > first and second generation versions?  The early, first- generation > > cars, as > >> > I think everyone knows, come with a wooden floor, sub-roof, and sub > > ends. > >> > The later, second-generation cars are all metal except for the > > wooden floor. > >> >     Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this subject. > >> > > >> >                                         Lou > >> > > > > >   > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5651	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Wanted: Sample HO Passengers Cars

List: Looking for one (1) each of the following assembled HO passenger cars for my passenger car display collection: a. "Limited Editions" HO passenger car, any style, any roadname. Most of these cars had pre-painted sides and pier panels. (These cars were only on the market for a very short time before Limited Editions went belly up. Their car kits were generally pretty terrible, and never went together well (the window panel strip was a slide-in piece that never would go in straight; instead, it bowed inward at the top, and wouldn't line up with the bottom half of the car, which is probably what killed the LE line. Besides, for their day, these cars were overly expensive). b. "AMT", or "American Model Toy", squared-ended, extruded aluminum streamlined, unpainted observation car. Any road name will do, but most of these cars came unlettered, and most didn't even have letterboards. (Intended primarily for the HO toy market. These cars were generally sold RTR and AMT eventually dropped their entire train line in order to concentrate on plastic model auto kits. The cars are very similar in appearance and materials to the earlier Herkimer cars, and later, the OK Streamliner series. Neither Herkimer nor OK ever made these cars in the blunt or square ended observation). These are pure 1950s technology. Cars should be "clean", assembled, and suitable for display in glass case. (circa early to mid-50s production) An aside to my modeling efforts, I collect samples of items made eons ago for display purposes. If you have any for sale, drop a note back with price info. Appreciate the help, Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5652	From: Riverboy	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: Sample HO Passengers Cars

Hi Dave,   Right now on eBay, there is one up for bid .   Item #360030367177 H.O. True Scale REAR PASSENGER CAR "American Model Toy"   It looks exactly what you are after, except there are no trucks to it from the looks of things .   Hope this helps.   Riverboy   WK2SHR@... wrote: List: Looking for one (1) each of the following assembled HO passenger cars for my passenger car display collection: a. "Limited Editions" HO passenger car, any style, any roadname. Most of these cars had pre-painted sides and pier panels. (These cars were only on the market for a very short time before Limited Editions went belly up. Their car kits were generally pretty terrible, and never went together well (the window panel strip was a slide-in piece that never would go in straight; instead, it bowed inward at the top, and wouldn't line up with the bottom half of the car, which is probably what killed the LE line. Besides, for their day, these cars were overly expensive). b. "AMT", or "American Model Toy", squared-ended, extruded aluminum streamlined, unpainted observation car. Any road name will do, but most of these cars came unlettered, and most didn't even have letterboards. (Intended primarily for the HO toy market. These cars were generally sold RTR and AMT eventually dropped their entire train line in order to concentrate on plastic model auto kits. The cars are very similar in appearance and materials to the earlier Herkimer cars, and later, the OK Streamliner series. Neither Herkimer nor OK ever made these cars in the blunt or square ended observation) . These are pure 1950s technology. Cars should be "clean", assembled, and suitable for display in glass case. (circa early to mid-50s production) An aside to my modeling efforts, I collect samples of items made eons ago for display purposes. If you have any for sale, drop a note back with price info. Appreciate the help, Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5653	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/10/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: Sample HO Passengers Cars

I've GOT the body for one of those, probably the frame too.  I could assemble one with everything but trucks.  I would have to sustitute something for the trucks (probably early Mantua would be closest).   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wanted: Sample HO Passengers Cars Hi Dave,   Right now on eBay, there is one up for bid .   Item #360030367177 H.O. True Scale REAR PASSENGER CAR "American Model Toy"   It looks exactly what you are after, except there are no trucks to it from the looks of things .   Hope this helps.   Riverboy   WK2SHR@... wrote: List: Looking for one (1) each of the following assembled HO passenger cars for my passenger car display collection: a. "Limited Editions" HO passenger car, any style, any roadname. Most of these cars had pre-painted sides and pier panels. (These cars were only on the market for a very short time before Limited Editions went belly up. Their car kits were generally pretty terrible, and never went together well (the window panel strip was a slide-in piece that never would go in straight; instead, it bowed inward at the top, and wouldn't line up with the bottom half of the car, which is probably what killed the LE line. Besides, for their day, these cars were overly expensive). b. "AMT", or "American Model Toy", squared-ended, extruded aluminum streamlined, unpainted observation car. Any road name will do, but most of these cars came unlettered, and most didn't even have letterboards. (Intended primarily for the HO toy market. These cars were generally sold RTR and AMT eventually dropped their entire train line in order to concentrate on plastic model auto kits. The cars are very similar in appearance and materials to the earlier Herkimer cars, and later, the OK Streamliner series. Neither Herkimer nor OK ever made these cars in the blunt or square ended observation) . These are pure 1950s technology. Cars should be "clean", assembled, and suitable for display in glass case. (circa early to mid-50s production) An aside to my modeling efforts, I collect samples of items made eons ago for display purposes. If you have any for sale, drop a note back with price info. Appreciate the help, Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5654	From: oljoeoh	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite

Just an addon for information.... Cost was 13.91 for product and 5.95 for taxes, s&h, etc. total $19.86. 10ml bottle. Newark Electronics Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > > Mr bell is right about RED, > > to hold a screw in a tapped hole, (not at the end of a > screwdriver for those that just got wind of this), I > wrote: > > I suggest for your application: > 222 Threadlocker Low Strength/Small Screw > > Low strength threadlocker. Designed for precision > metal fasteners under 3/4". Protects threads from rust > and corrosion. Removable with hand tools. Available > Worldwide > > Typical Applications > Set screws, adjustment screws, calibration screws, > meters, gauges. > > Part # 21463 - Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small > Screw, 10 ml Bottle. > > The link is below if it works in your mail reader, if > not get to loctite.com , select USA, pick any product > to get the search button at the bottom and then type > in 21463. Then select the first hit that says: > Threadlocker 222 Low Strength > (21463 is the part number for the smallest bottle they > have listed) > > http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/index.cfm?pageid=19&verityspider=1&layout=6&productline=222&path=222%20Threadlocker%20Low%20Strength%2FSmall%20Screw(222) > > Physical color they say is purple. > > Good old Elmers may work as someone suggested. But the > proper product for metel to metal "instrument like" > locking is Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small Screw. > > Gerry > > --- Andrew Bell <belsonic@...> wrote: > > > Excuse me on the Locktite, but the red is NOT the > > light duty. Red > > needs heat to release, blue will release with a > > little pressure. When > > building car motors red is used on the flywheel to > > prevent the > > flywheel from coming off, wheareas blue is used opn > > the clutch plate > > so it can be changed easily. There is also a green > > that is used to > > lock shafts in place, it will also release with a > > little heat. > > Therefore blue is the one to use on these small > > screws and can be > > purchased at a good hardware store. By the way I > > also use the blue on > > my spectical frame screws so as to not loose my > > lenses. > > > > Andy Bell > > Portland OR > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5655	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: AHM Golden Car Series

Hope my question will not be considered inappropriate .... I am aware that I am on thin ice with such "new" plastic stuff... : Have accumulated four AHM "Golden Car Series" cars; ACL, CofG , Chicago & Illinois Midland Water Melon Cars and a Clinchfield Slatted Palace Stock Car... wonder which other cars / road names were available? 1973 Reviews in MR and RMC mention ACL, CofG, C&IL and Nashville Chattanooga & St.Louis Watermelon cars but no stock cars. What happened to this series? Did they let it fade away, or were other types of cars released too? Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5656	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Golden Car Series

HI Gerold: I think that line of cars was a short-lived AHM experiment that didn't do too well. There is an AHM ACL water mellon car around here too, somewhere. AHM also tried RTR pre-"weathered" freight cars around the same time, and that didnt' work either. Very few were produced after the pilot models were released. These were probably experiments to help pump up sagging HO trains sales at the time (early 1970s). Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5657	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: Re: Wanted: Sample HO Passengers Cars

Hi riverboy: Thanks for the tip. I'll check it. Appreciate the note. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5658	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 3/11/2008
Subject: Athearn Passenger Cars

In what year did Athearn switch from multi-piece passenger car bodies to a one-piece body? I tend to think it was in the 60's or early 70's. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5659	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Hi Walter: I think you are referring to (maybe) the old Globe Models streamlined passenger cars. These all had separate end pieces and some other parts. Around 1955 or so, Athearn acquired Globe Models, and the streamlined cars that Athearn offers today in kit and RTR versions are updated Globe Models (as is the F unit and GP9s). At the same time, Athearn got the Globe plastic freight cars, and not long after- ward dropped their old wood and metal freight car lines (some of which are still available here and there, and most notably, under the name of "Menzies"). The current crop of heavyweight passenger cars are an Athearn-original invention, and date from about 1956 or so. Over the years, Athearn has added one or two new cars to the SL and HW line, that were not part of the original Globe line of of cars. Actually, it was the Globe Models line of plastic car kits that got Athearn going, and gave them their great reputation. Prior to Globe Athearn was a relative obscure and unknown that probably wouldn't have survived past the 1960s......had they not bought out Globe. Since then, Athearn has continually improved and updated the old line, added a lot of new models -- and the rest is history. Athearns changes and updates have been generational in nature, and today, most are now sold as RTR, instead of kits. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5660	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

The early Globe kits also had seperate sides, roof, and floor.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Passenger Cars Hi Walter: I think you are referring to (maybe) the old Globe Models streamlined passenger cars. These all had separate end pieces and some other parts. Around 1955 or so, Athearn acquired Globe Models, and the streamlined cars that Athearn offers today in kit and RTR versions are updated Globe Models (as is the F unit and GP9s). At the same time, Athearn got the Globe plastic freight cars, and not long after- ward dropped their old wood and metal freight car lines (some of which are still available here and there, and most notably, under the name of "Menzies"). The current crop of heavyweight passenger cars are an Athearn-original invention, and date from about 1956 or so. Over the years, Athearn has added one or two new cars to the SL and HW line, that were not part of the original Globe line of of cars. Actually, it was the Globe Models line of plastic car kits that got Athearn going, and gave them their great reputation. Prior to Globe Athearn was a relative obscure and unknown that probably wouldn't have survived past the 1960s......had they not bought out Globe. Since then, Athearn has continually improved and updated the old line, added a lot of new models -- and the rest is history. Athearns changes and updates have been generational in nature, and today, most are now sold as RTR, instead of kits. Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5661	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

I recall purchasing two or three Athearn streamlined passenger car kits in New York City between 1958 and 1960.  They were corrugated cars, including a baggage/RPO and one or two coaches, all painted Tuscan red and lettered for Pennsylvania Railroad.  All were “flat kits,” with separate plastic floor, roof, sides, and ends that needed to be glued together.  Window pieces, a metal weight, and trucks were included, and the trucks also needed to be assembled.  All were in Athearn rather than Globe boxes.  I still have them.  I don’t know how long after that Athearn went to the integral body in which sides, roof, and ends were molded as one piece.                                                                                                                                                     Lou On 3/12/08 12:20 PM, "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...> wrote:     The early Globe kits also had seperate sides, roof, and floor. Chuck Kinzer ----- Original Message -----   From:  WK2SHR@...   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com   Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:20  AM   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn  Passenger Cars       Hi Walter: I think you are referring to  (maybe) the old Globe Models streamlined passenger cars. These all had  separate end pieces and some other parts. Around 1955 or so, Athearn  acquired Globe Models, and the streamlined cars that Athearn offers today  in kit and RTR versions are updated Globe Models (as is the F unit and  GP9s). At the same time, Athearn got the Globe plastic freight cars, and  not long after- ward dropped their old wood and metal freight car lines  (some of which are still available here and there, and most notably, under  the name of "Menzies"). The current crop of heavyweight passenger cars  are an Athearn-original invention, and date from about 1956 or so. Over  the years, Athearn has added one or two new cars to the SL and HW line,  that were not part of the original Globe line of of cars. Actually, it  was the Globe Models line of plastic car kits that got Athearn going, and  gave them their great reputation. Prior to Globe Athearn was a relative  obscure and unknown that probably wouldn't have survived past the  1960s......had they not bought out Globe. Since then, Athearn has  continually improved and updated the old line, added a lot of new models --  and the rest is history. Athearns changes and updates have been  generational in nature, and today, most are now sold as RTR, instead of  kits. Dave F ************** It's Tax  Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &  Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5662	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

So Globe developed the kits and around 1955 or so, Athearn bought the Globe line. How long was it before they 'simplified' the passenger car kits by going to a one piece car body? I recall buying one of the Globe style Athearn kits, and I think that would have been in the late 50's or early 60's. Of course, the kit could have been on the dealer's shelf for a few years too. Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > Hi Walter: > > I think you are referring to (maybe) the old Globe Models streamlined > passenger cars. These all had separate end pieces and some other > parts. Around 1955 or so, Athearn acquired Globe Models, and the > streamlined cars that Athearn offers today in kit and RTR versions > are updated Globe Models (as is the F unit and GP9s). At the same > time, Athearn got the Globe plastic freight cars, and not long after- > ward dropped their old wood and metal freight car lines (some of > which are still available here and there, and most notably, under the > name of "Menzies"). The current crop of heavyweight passenger > cars are an Athearn-original invention, and date from about 1956 or so. > > Over the years, Athearn has added one or two new cars to the SL > and HW line, that were not part of the original Globe line of of cars. > > Actually, it was the Globe Models line of plastic car kits that got > Athearn going, and gave them their great reputation. Prior to Globe > Athearn was a relative obscure and unknown that probably wouldn't > have survived past the 1960s......had they not bought out Globe. > > Since then, Athearn has continually improved and updated the old > line, added a lot of new models -- and the rest is history. Athearns > changes and updates have been generational in nature, and today, > most are now sold as RTR, instead of kits. > > Dave F > > > > ************** > It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & > Finance. > (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5663	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

I got three of the new one piece body in 1961 or 1962.    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Walter J. Bayer II Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 12:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars   So Globe developed the kits and around 1955 or so, Athearn bought the Globe line. How long was it before they 'simplified' the passenger car kits by going to a one piece car body? I recall buying one of the Globe style Athearn kits, and I think that would have been in the late 50's or early 60's. Of course, the kit could have been on the dealer's shelf for a few years too. Walter _,_._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5664	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Hi Walter: I just read about Globe and Athearn recently in one of my mid-1950s copies of Model Railroader magazine, which is where I got the info you asked about earlier. Seems Athearn simplified the streamlined passenger car kits pretty quickly after they acquired Globe. They did a lot of things to all of the old Globe models too. Early on, I don't think any of the Globe F units were ever powered, but Athearn came up with a rubber-band "High F" drive for them around 1956 or 1957. I know I had a lot of Globe Fs that were issued in dummy As and Bs, and at the time, most of us used the drives from Varney F3s to "make em go". There wasn't a whole lot out there in the way of drives in those days, so when Athearn came out with their High F drive system, it was "hot stuff" for its day. By the way, the Globe As sold for 98 cents each, and the Bs were 89 cents, and came decorated for several RR names. Crude but fun. The Fs didn't have windshield glass either.....(and neither did many competitor diesel locos, even the "high end" ones of the day). You could "tame" a really fast and jerky High F drive and give it a sort of flywheel effect in those days by taking a large nut or a piece of pipe cut to fit, and attaching it to the drive shaft. As long as you got the nut or pipe exactly "centered" (balanced), it ran like a charmer - smooth, slow and steady. ("flywheels" didn't exist then either). Back then, putty and good old "Duco Cement" out of a tube held the whole works in place, and it generally stayed put. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5665	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Hi Louis: The "weights" included with those old Athearn passenger cars were not original Globe. That was one of the (many) changes Athearn added to the old Globe line of cars, including freight cars. Globe generally issued these cars using pure 1950s methods: no weight, no snap together, no Delrin wheels (Delrin didn't exist back then, everyone used plain old plastic for train wheels). One of the things that Athearn did around 1957 or so on their HW cars (which was an Athearn original, not a Globe car) was added heavy metal trucks to these cars. For some reasons, they didn't include metal trucks with the streamlined cars, nor the freight cars though. I think there are a few of those old cars here too, and they still run as well today -- as they did when I bought them new in 1957 or 58.....and the single piece body shells haven't changed either over the years. The metal trucks tended to corrode with age, so it was a good idea to paint them once the model was assembled. The trucks did not crystalize - or fall apart though. (Over the years, I've replaced the original plastic wheel sets in these with more modern metal wheels, with good effect, and they are still racking up the miles). Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5666	From: Neal Rammacher	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

I believe I got a dummy A unit as a mail in offer from Post cereal   neal and the gang ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars Hi Walter: I just read about Globe and Athearn recently in one of my mid-1950s copies of Model Railroader magazine, which is where I got the info you asked about earlier. Seems Athearn simplified the streamlined passenger car kits pretty quickly after they acquired Globe. They did a lot of things to all of the old Globe models too. Early on, I don't think any of the Globe F units were ever powered, but Athearn came up with a rubber-band "High F" drive for them around 1956 or 1957. I know I had a lot of Globe Fs that were issued in dummy As and Bs, and at the time, most of us used the drives from Varney F3s to "make em go". There wasn't a whole lot out there in the way of drives in those days, so when Athearn came out with their High F drive system, it was "hot stuff" for its day. By the way, the Globe As sold for 98 cents each, and the Bs were 89 cents, and came decorated for several RR names. Crude but fun. The Fs didn't have windshield glass either.....( and neither did many competitor diesel locos, even the "high end" ones of the day). You could "tame" a really fast and jerky High F drive and give it a sort of flywheel effect in those days by taking a large nut or a piece of pipe cut to fit, and attaching it to the drive shaft. As long as you got the nut or pipe exactly "centered" (balanced), it ran like a charmer - smooth, slow and steady. ("flywheels" didn't exist then either). Back then, putty and good old "Duco Cement" out of a tube held the whole works in place, and it generally stayed put. Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5667	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

My first Athearn passenger car was also a tuscan red dome, and was the 6 piece kit.  This was Ca. Christmas 1959.   Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Greiff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Passenger Cars I recall purchasing two or three Athearn streamlined passenger car kits in New York City between 1958 and 1960.  They were corrugated cars, including a baggage/RPO and one or two coaches, all painted Tuscan red and lettered for Pennsylvania Railroad.  All were “flat kits,” with separate plastic floor, roof, sides, and ends that needed to be glued together.  Window pieces, a metal weight, and trucks were included, and the trucks also needed to be assembled.  All were in Athearn rather than Globe boxes.  I still have them.  I don’t know how long after that Athearn went to the integral body in which sides, roof, and ends were molded as one piece.                                                                                                                                                     Lou On 3/12/08 12:20 PM, "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...> wrote:     The early Globe kits also had seperate sides, roof, and floor. Chuck Kinzer ----- Original Message -----   From:  WK2SHR@...   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com   Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:20  AM   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn  Passenger Cars       Hi Walter: I think you are referring to  (maybe) the old Globe Models streamlined passenger cars. These all had  separate end pieces and some other parts. Around 1955 or so, Athearn  acquired Globe Models, and the streamlined cars that Athearn offers today  in kit and RTR versions are updated Globe Models (as is the F unit and  GP9s). At the same time, Athearn got the Globe plastic freight cars, and  not long after- ward dropped their old wood and metal freight car lines  (some of which are still available here and there, and most notably, under  the name of "Menzies"). The current crop of heavyweight passenger cars  are an Athearn-original invention, and date from about 1956 or so. Over  the years, Athearn has added one or two new cars to the SL and HW line,  that were not part of the original Globe line of of cars. Actually, it  was the Globe Models line of plastic car kits that got Athearn going, and  gave them their great reputation. Prior to Globe Athearn was a relative  obscure and unknown that probably wouldn't have survived past the  1960s......had they not bought out Globe. Since then, Athearn has  continually improved and updated the old line, added a lot of new models --  and the rest is history. Athearns changes and updates have been  generational in nature, and today, most are now sold as RTR, instead of  kits. Dave F ************** It's Tax  Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &  Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5668	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Athearn did have a gear drive in the late 1950's, prior to or concurrent with the "Hi-Fi" drive.  (I have a couple still running).  Pittman also offered a "gearing down" kit for the Hi-Fi, it still used the rubber bands to power the axles, but the drive shaft was geared down either side of the motor.   I read an interesting comment in Model Railroader at the time, that the rubber band drives actually had MORE tractive effort than the gear drives of the day, but of course suffered from "jackrabbit" starts and high top speed.  You could actually smooth them out by coupling 2 or 3 units together, they would smoith each other out and give you quite a nice running consist.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars Hi Walter: I just read about Globe and Athearn recently in one of my mid-1950s copies of Model Railroader magazine, which is where I got the info you asked about earlier. Seems Athearn simplified the streamlined passenger car kits pretty quickly after they acquired Globe. They did a lot of things to all of the old Globe models too. Early on, I don't think any of the Globe F units were ever powered, but Athearn came up with a rubber-band "High F" drive for them around 1956 or 1957. I know I had a lot of Globe Fs that were issued in dummy As and Bs, and at the time, most of us used the drives from Varney F3s to "make em go". There wasn't a whole lot out there in the way of drives in those days, so when Athearn came out with their High F drive system, it was "hot stuff" for its day. By the way, the Globe As sold for 98 cents each, and the Bs were 89 cents, and came decorated for several RR names. Crude but fun. The Fs didn't have windshield glass either.....(and neither did many competitor diesel locos, even the "high end" ones of the day). You could "tame" a really fast and jerky High F drive and give it a sort of flywheel effect in those days by taking a large nut or a piece of pipe cut to fit, and attaching it to the drive shaft. As long as you got the nut or pipe exactly "centered" (balanced), it ran like a charmer - smooth, slow and steady. ("flywheels" didn't exist then either). Back then, putty and good old "Duco Cement" out of a tube held the whole works in place, and it generally stayed put. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5669	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

WK2SHR@... wrote: > At the same > time, Athearn got the Globe plastic freight cars, and not long after- > ward dropped their old wood and metal freight car lines (some of > which are still available here and there, and most notably, under the > name of "Menzies"). After Menzies folded the kits went to Bowser, who released them under their English's Model Railroad Supply subdivision for a while. I have several of the kits under the latter banner. A look at Bowser's web site doesn't turn up any indication that they are currently available. The instructions are online though: http://www.bowser-trains.com/hoother/Menzies.pdf -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "I don't want to hear any of that politically correct rooster poop." -Al Bundy, "Married With Children"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5670	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Athearn did have a gear drive in the late 1950's, prior to or concurrent with the "Hi-Fi" drive. (I have a couple still running). Pittman also offered a "gearing down" kit for the Hi-Fi, it still used the rubber bands to power the axles, but the drive shaft was geared down either side of the motor. I read an interesting comment in Model Railroader at the time, that the rubber band drives actually had MORE tractive effort than the gear drives of the day, but of course suffered from "jackrabbit" starts and high top speed. You could actually smooth them out by coupling 2 or 3 units together, they would smoith each other out and give you quite a nice running consist. Don don.dellmann@... They were nice and quiet also, Pittman offered a geared down conversion unit for the HI-FI's that was somewhat succesful. Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5671	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

from my recollection, the "5-part bodies lasted into the late fifties--I switched from HO to O about the time I graduated from high school, 1959--and had recently built some of those cars.  Originally I think there were four--RPO, coach, dome, and observation. That construction was handy as I was building a California Zephyr, and was able to build the dome-obs. easily with the separate parts. Seems that even then they had the Athearn name on the box. Red box with black & white artwork. I really don't recall the Globe freight cars, although I recognized the name. I recall a 40 ft boxcar by Athearn, possibly Globe, right around the same time that the Kurtz Kraft cars came out.  Same price, and you got trucks with the Athearn.  To me--Globe made its real splash with the F-7's. First MR ad I find is August 1954.  Then nothing more until December, they hint at power.  Still only "teaser" ads thru mid-55.  Nothing about freight cars--particularly in plastic.  I remember getting an ABBA set in UP, one unit at a time--all dummies.  Had to be summer / fall of 54.  gj     ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Passenger Cars

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5672	From: erieberk	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Freight Cars, was: Athearn Passenger Cars

Correction; after Menzies folded, D.J. Baker took them over. After that, Park Varieties produced them, both in original Athearn road names and in road names other than what Athearn produced. After this, Bowser produced them. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: > > After Menzies folded the kits went to Bowser, who released them > under their English's Model Railroad Supply subdivision for a while. I > have several of the kits under the latter banner. A look at Bowser's web > site doesn't turn up any indication that they are currently available. > The instructions are online though: > > http://www.bowser-trains.com/hoother/Menzies.pdf > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > > "I don't want to hear any of that politically correct rooster poop." > -Al Bundy, "Married With Children" >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5673	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

GJ:   The yellow and later blue, and current "blue box" that Athearn uses --- is descended from the original Globe box. The ones I have are still yellow, with all the little black train silhouettes on the side. I think Athearn kept the box, changed the lettering, and over the years, changed to box in small increments. My old yellow boxes say "Globe Models" where the "Athearn" now lives.   Dave F   It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5674	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Maybe I have older Globe boxes.  The background color is orange which is the dominant color of the box.  Black silhouetted train.  Big word "Streamliner" with a really big white S and black lettering otherwise.   Chuck K.   ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Passenger Cars GJ:   The yellow and later blue, and current "blue box" that Athearn uses --- is descended from the original Globe box. The ones I have are still yellow, with all the little black train silhouettes on the side. I think Athearn kept the box, changed the lettering, and over the years, changed to box in small increments. My old yellow boxes say "Globe Models" where the "Athearn" now lives.   Dave F   It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money Finance.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5675	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Hummm... I just looked, I have a few of them. No. AK-4:98 BAGGAGE-MAIL (assembled unpainted rough box, orange) No. AK-3:98 COACH (Assembled unpainted rough box, orange) GOLD KIT B80 (gold painted B unit assembled Fair box different style Orange) I lost the thread, was someone looking for them or was it just a general discussion of Athearn acquiring Gold? Gerry --- ckinzer@... wrote: > Maybe I have older Globe boxes. The background > color is orange which is the dominant color of the > box. Black silhouetted train. Big word > "Streamliner" with a really big white S and black > lettering otherwise. > > Chuck K. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: WK2SHR@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 6:55 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Passenger Cars > > > > GJ: > > The yellow and later blue, and current "blue box" > that Athearn uses --- is descended from the > original Globe box. The ones I have are still > yellow, with all the little black train silhouettes > on the side. I think Athearn kept the box, changed > the lettering, and over the years, > changed to box in small increments. My old yellow > boxes say "Globe Models" where the > "Athearn" now lives. > > Dave F > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL > Money Finance. > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5676	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Passenger Cars > Hummm... > I just looked, I have a few of them. > No. AK-4:98 BAGGAGE-MAIL (assembled unpainted rough > box, orange) > No. AK-3:98 COACH (Assembled unpainted rough box, > orange) > GOLD KIT B80 (gold painted B unit assembled Fair box > different style Orange) > I lost the thread, was someone looking for them or was > it just a general discussion of Athearn acquiring > Gold? > > Gerry I think the original question was when did Athearn switch from the 6 piece body to theb two piece for the streamliners? Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5677	From: oljoe@landolls.com	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite

Yet another follow on to this thread..... My order for loctite 222, purple has arrived. The "small" 10ml bottle is surprisingly large. The label states that it should be used by 10/10. I doubt I will use all of that 10ml in just over 2 years. My first use will be on an old Mantua 0-6-0 with full valve gear that will only run for several minutes without threatening to destroy itself. I also have a 0-6-0 by mew with the same annoying problem. Joe O'Loughlin Gerry D wrote: > > > Mr bell is right about RED, > > to hold a screw in a tapped hole, (not at the end of a > screwdriver for those that just got wind of this), I > wrote: > > I suggest for your application: > 222 Threadlocker Low Strength/Small Screw > > Low strength threadlocker. Designed for precision > metal fasteners under 3/4". Protects threads from rust > and corrosion. Removable with hand tools. Available > Worldwide > > Typical Applications > Set screws, adjustment screws, calibration screws, > meters, gauges. > > Part # 21463 - Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small > Screw, 10 ml Bottle. > > The link is below if it works in your mail reader, if > not get to loctite.com , select USA, pick any product > to get the search button at the bottom and then type > in 21463. Then select the first hit that says: > Threadlocker 222 Low Strength > (21463 is the part number for the smallest bottle they > have listed) > > http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/index.cfm?pageid=19&verityspider=1&layout=6&productline=222&path=222%20Threadlocker%20Low%20Strength%2FSmall%20Screw > <http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/index.cfm?pageid=19&verityspider=1&layout=6&productline=222&path=222%20Threadlocker%20Low%20Strength%2FSmall%20Screw>(222) > > Physical color they say is purple. > > Good old Elmers may work as someone suggested. But the > proper product for metel to metal "instrument like" > locking is Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small Screw. > > Gerry > > --- Andrew Bell <belsonic@... > <mailto:belsonic%40spiritone.com>> wrote: > > > Excuse me on the Locktite, but the red is NOT the > > light duty. Red > > needs heat to release, blue will release with a > > little pressure. When > > building car motors red is used on the flywheel to > > prevent the > > flywheel from coming off, wheareas blue is used opn > > the clutch plate > > so it can be changed easily. There is also a green > > that is used to > > lock shafts in place, it will also release with a > > little heat. > > Therefore blue is the one to use on these small > > screws and can be > > purchased at a good hardware store. By the way I > > also use the blue on > > my spectical frame screws so as to not loose my > > lenses. > > > > Andy Bell > > Portland OR > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs <http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5678	From: oljoeoh	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua: locktite

correction - the 0-6-0 my mew is actually by mdc (model die casting). Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, oljoe@... wrote: > > Yet another follow on to this thread..... > My order for loctite 222, purple has arrived. > The "small" 10ml bottle is surprisingly large. > The label states that it should be used by 10/10. > I doubt I will use all of that 10ml in just over > 2 years. My first use will be on an old Mantua 0-6-0 > with full valve gear that will only run for several > minutes without threatening to destroy itself. I also > have a 0-6-0 by mew with the same annoying problem. > Joe O'Loughlin > > Gerry D wrote: > > > > > > > Mr bell is right about RED, > > > > to hold a screw in a tapped hole, (not at the end of a > > screwdriver for those that just got wind of this), I > > wrote: > > > > I suggest for your application: > > 222 Threadlocker Low Strength/Small Screw > > > > Low strength threadlocker. Designed for precision > > metal fasteners under 3/4". Protects threads from rust > > and corrosion. Removable with hand tools. Available > > Worldwide > > > > Typical Applications > > Set screws, adjustment screws, calibration screws, > > meters, gauges. > > > > Part # 21463 - Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small > > Screw, 10 ml Bottle. > > > > The link is below if it works in your mail reader, if > > not get to loctite.com , select USA, pick any product > > to get the search button at the bottom and then type > > in 21463. Then select the first hit that says: > > Threadlocker 222 Low Strength > > (21463 is the part number for the smallest bottle they > > have listed) > > > > http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/index.cfm?pageid=19&verityspider=1&layout=6&productline=222&path=222%20Threadlocker%20Low%20Strength%2FSmall%20Screw > > <http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/index.cfm?pageid=19&verityspider=1&layout=6&productline=222&path=222%20Threadlocker%20Low%20Strength%2FSmall%20Screw>(222) > > > > Physical color they say is purple. > > > > Good old Elmers may work as someone suggested. But the > > proper product for metel to metal "instrument like" > > locking is Threadlocker 222 Low Strength/Small Screw. > > > > Gerry > > > > --- Andrew Bell <belsonic@... > > <mailto:belsonic%40spiritone.com>> wrote: > > > > > Excuse me on the Locktite, but the red is NOT the > > > light duty. Red > > > needs heat to release, blue will release with a > > > little pressure. When > > > building car motors red is used on the flywheel to > > > prevent the > > > flywheel from coming off, wheareas blue is used opn > > > the clutch plate > > > so it can be changed easily. There is also a green > > > that is used to > > > lock shafts in place, it will also release with a > > > little heat. > > > Therefore blue is the one to use on these small > > > screws and can be > > > purchased at a good hardware store. By the way I > > > also use the blue on > > > my spectical frame screws so as to not loose my > > > lenses. > > > > > > Andy Bell > > > Portland OR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs <http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5679	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Thanks Don. --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 1:05 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Passenger Cars > > > > Hummm... > > I just looked, I have a few of them. > > No. AK-4:98 BAGGAGE-MAIL (assembled unpainted > rough > > box, orange) > > No. AK-3:98 COACH (Assembled unpainted rough box, > > orange) > > GOLD KIT B80 (gold painted B unit assembled Fair > box > > different style Orange) > > I lost the thread, was someone looking for them or > was > > it just a general discussion of Athearn acquiring > > Gold? > > > > Gerry > > I think the original question was when did Athearn > switch from the 6 piece > body to theb two piece for the streamliners? > > Don > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5680	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Globe as an independent company ceased to exist after its 1951 sale to Athearn. All products under the Globe name after that were reportedly either sale of remaining stock, or Athearn's particular choice of "Glob" as a brand name for some of its own new products. In this regard, and to my knowledge, Globe did no work developing the plastic cars that subsequently bore the same name on the box; and Athearn simply used the Globe name for as its particular brand for its new molded plastic passenger cars and F-units. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5681	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Over the years, many established manufacturers and importers have used other names for radically new lines. Look at: Blackstone by Soundtraxx, MMI by PSC, Far East Distributors by NWSL (Remember the "Disaster Series" caboose that was so bad they wouldn't acknowledge it for a long time? --going on back to our original case in point, Globe by Athearn. Often the "Protection Name" gets dissolved back into the parent brand when the new line catches on. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars > Globe as an independent company ceased to exist after its 1951 sale > to Athearn. All products under the Globe name after that were > reportedly either sale of remaining stock, or Athearn's particular > choice of "Glob" as a brand name for some of its own new products. > > In this regard, and to my knowledge, Globe did no work developing the > plastic cars that subsequently bore the same name on the box; and > Athearn simply used the Globe name for as its particular brand for > its new molded plastic passenger cars and F-units. > > Denny > -- > Denny S. Anspach, MD > Sacramento > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5682	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

I have a gold A and B unit in boxes that are black with reddish-orange graphics, some yellow.I seem to recall the passenger car boxes as a similar reddish orange, But with a lot of light gray in the artwork. I don't think that the heavyweight passenger cars came out until after 1959, as in 58 I was working on a train similar to what we called on the SP, "Sad Sam"--the Coast Mail--with a semi-streamlined pacific and a bunch of head end cars. The RDC I think was re-done in plastic in the early sixties as I recall "stretching" a pair to scale length and photographing them--I know when I got the camera, and then the location I photographed them had a house built there. So based on those, I'd guess that the one-piece bodies came along around 1960. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars > Globe as an independent company ceased to exist after its 1951 sale > to Athearn. All products under the Globe name after that were > reportedly either sale of remaining stock, or Athearn's particular > choice of "Glob" as a brand name for some of its own new products. > > In this regard, and to my knowledge, Globe did no work developing the > plastic cars that subsequently bore the same name on the box; and > Athearn simply used the Globe name for as its particular brand for > its new molded plastic passenger cars and F-units. > > Denny > -- > Denny S. Anspach, MD > Sacramento > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5683	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

What's left of the instruction sheet in one of the boxes I have does say: "Athearn Scale Model Equipment" 11929 S WESTERN AVE LOS ANGELES 47, CALIF. I'll scan the boxes and post the files. Gerry --- Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: > Over the years, many established manufacturers and > importers have used other > names for radically new lines. Look at: Blackstone > by Soundtraxx, MMI by > PSC, Far East Distributors by NWSL (Remember the > "Disaster Series" caboose > that was so bad they wouldn't acknowledge it for a > long time? --going on > back to our original case in point, Globe by > Athearn. Often the "Protection > Name" gets dissolved back into the parent brand when > the new line catches > on. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:37 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars > > > > Globe as an independent company ceased to exist > after its 1951 sale > > to Athearn. All products under the Globe name > after that were > > reportedly either sale of remaining stock, or > Athearn's particular > > choice of "Glob" as a brand name for some of its > own new products. > > > > In this regard, and to my knowledge, Globe did no > work developing the > > plastic cars that subsequently bore the same name > on the box; and > > Athearn simply used the Globe name for as its > particular brand for > > its new molded plastic passenger cars and F-units. > > > > Denny > > -- > > Denny S. Anspach, MD > > Sacramento > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5684	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: What's vintage (again)

A while back we had a discussion about 'What's vintage?'. My feeling is that we really cannot make a strict definition about what is vintage. Certainly kit materials can be considered (wood, metal), but on the other hand I consider the early Athearn/Globe (such as the plastic streamline psgr cars) to be vintage as we are currently discussing. I guess what I am trying to say is that what may be vintage to one person may not be vintage to another. And as time goes by more stuff becomes vintage. In contrast tinplate has a much clearer watershed, 'prewar' and 'postwar'. BTW the Athearn streamline cars I consider to be not a bad model for Budd streamline cars which they made just before WWII and then after WWII. The Budd cars must have been the prototype.--John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5685	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: What's vintage (again)

Hi John: I think the concensus among the group was that anything produced before 1960 or thereabouts, was considered "vintageHO". Your Globe cars would certainly qualify in this regard I believe. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5686	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:37 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars > Globe as an independent company ceased to exist after its 1951 sale > to Athearn. All products under the Globe name after that were > reportedly either sale of remaining stock, or Athearn's particular > choice of "Glob" as a brand name for some of its own new products. > > In this regard, and to my knowledge, Globe did no work developing the > plastic cars that subsequently bore the same name on the box; and > Athearn simply used the Globe name for as its particular brand for > its new molded plastic passenger cars and F-units. > > Denny Some of which may have been "political". Athearn for many years in the 1940's and early 50's made a fairly big deal in their ads about being "exclusively O scale". It would have been a bit embarassing to Irv if people knew he was also producing HO at the same time. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5687	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

I was in contact with Athearen on the subject of the new SP 4-8-2, and asked about then Athearn formally took over "Globe"--answer was "Mid Fifties" I guess that's about as "from the horse's mouth" as we can get. I'd like to get a copy of the Athearn book if someone knows where one is available. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5688	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Hi GJ: It is likely that no one at Athearn today was around when Irv Athearn acquired Globe, so that sort of reply from Athearn really isn't surprising. Since Athearn was acquired by Horizon, there have probably been a lot of employee turnout too, so anyone with any institutional background knowledge has likely gone out the door. The same applies to Walthers, and of course, the MDC crowd. "Restructuring" always creates casualties, and with the casualties goes the folks who really know what is going on.....Progress! Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5689	From: Glen Thomas	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Glenn and Don.... From Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains... "On July 2, 1951, Carl Traub (president) sold the Globe Models trademark and product line to Irvine R Athearn." Glen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I was in contact with Athearen on the subject of the new SP 4-8-2, and asked > about then Athearn formally took over "Globe"--answer was "Mid Fifties" > I guess that's about as "from the horse's mouth" as we can get. > > I'd like to get a copy of the Athearn book if someone knows where one is > available. gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:34 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5690	From: Mike Slater	Date: 3/13/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Athearn Also produced 3 passenger sets for Lionel in 1958-61 1958 New Haven 1959-60 Texas Special (both Flat panel cars and one piece body's) and the Pensy set   Mike Slater   No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1327 - Release Date: 3/12/2008 1:27 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5691	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Hi Don, It wouldn't have been so embarrassing to find out that he was also producing HO so much, but back then, that he was producing said HO in of all things "PLASTIC"!!!!!!!!!!!!!:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 7:34:10 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars Some of which may have been "political". Athearn for many years in the 1940's and early 50's made a fairly big deal in their ads about being "exclusively O scale". It would have been a bit embarassing to Irv if people knew he was also producing HO at the same time. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5692	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Hi Mike:   Correct. Athearn also supplied Cox, a short-lived entrant from the model airplane market, with HO streamlined passenger cars in the early to mid 70s. While I don't have any Cox passenger cars, I do have a couple of their F-3s which were nicely done for 70s-era detailing. The Cox F-3s didn't last long, and eventually became part of the Model Power line. I think Model Power has since dropped them from their line, and instead, came up with that awful, crude monster they call an F-2 (which looks a lot like that ancient F-3 Gilbert offered in HO sometime around 1953 and later). The F-2 has a terribly mishaped nose, and if you have ever seen it, it looks "like an abortion that lived". The F-2 is still being hawked today by Model Power.....(junk).   Dave F   It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5693	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

I think that both the Cox and the Gilbert F-3's were the plastic version of the Varney.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5694	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

HI GJ: NO, no, the Cox and Gilbert F-3s were NOT copies of the Varney units at all. At least the Varney unit had class, compared to that thing that Gilbert offered. The Cox F-3 of the mid-70s was a significant improvement over both Gilbert and Varney. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5695	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/14/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Passenger Cars

I had a Gilbert F3 back in 1958 that I'd have sworn came from Varney.  Some later versions had the roof insert a bit below the surrounding surface/ ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Passenger Cars HI GJ: NO, no, the Cox and Gilbert F-3s were NOT copies of the Varney units at all. At least the Varney unit had class, compared to that thing that Gilbert offered. The Cox F-3 of the mid-70s was a significant improvement over both Gilbert and Varney. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5696	From: Jim Snyder	Date: 3/15/2008
Subject: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

Besides the fact that I was around in 1960, my friend Steve Larsen's (Gunnings Hobbies, San Anselmo, CA) gift a few years ago of a couple shoe boxes full of '40s &'50s freight cars, brought me back! I bought a Revell Enginehouse and some of the yard bldgs.- those monuments to the talents of Alan Armitage... Then I found an old Varney 6v. 4-6- 0. I had the later one- the 'Casey Jones'- back then. I can remember wondering why I never did see any of the larger Varney engines in the hobby shops. I remember wanting a Super-Mike and a Berkshire. So.. around Christmastime, the gods were telling me I had too much money, so I found a Super 4-6-2, an Economy 4-6-2- the S.P. engine- and a nice Berkshire. There were also a couple extra brass tender kits in the pile. I started parking the Berkshire- the only one that could be called 'finished'- next to the likes of a PFM I.C. "8000" 2-8-4 and a Southern Ms4. -and the old gal looked just fine! I have decided that the Varney 2-8-4 is an L&N Class "M", making her fit right in there with those southern engines. Now we all know just how smoothly those old Varney locos are reputed to run... but I came up with another item that smooths out not only the Varneys, but just about anything I felt like throwing at it! And that is, the Controlmaster I, by Model Rectifier Corp. The Controlmaster I was, if not THE, then one of the first transistorized throttles marketed commercially. It was big, fancy- with great big meters- both voltage and amperage- and, of course, the special effects! First off, track voltage was adjustable from the front panel. There was the usual forward and reverse switch... only this one is a full inch and a half long! And when you throw it, it feels like dropping a '58 Cadillac, with a four-speed Hydramatic into 'Super'. All the switches are like that. The throttle knob- complete with 'crazy mans' wheel' knob- is both without any discernible resistance, but also a feeling of simple precision that hasn't been present in very many things recently. There is a large lever that allows the engineer to choose from 'direct drive' or a number of 'transistorized' functions. Acceleration, inertia and deceleration are adjustable from barely noticeable to 'freight train realistic'. All this was enclosed in an industrial grade cabinet of copper-colored anodized aluminum. In 1963, all this could be had for $79.95.- about the price of a brass 4-8-4 or 2-10-4. Using the Consumer Price Index as a guide, that's about $539.00 in today's dollars! The Controlmaster II was also available- a smaller version with only deceleration effects. Both of these were single cabs- and the ultra high-end "I" supplied D.C. only; A.C. for the switch motors needed a separate source! My dad and I did a 4' X 8' with a 2-track main(The Great Eastern Trunk, as in the Atlas book...) and a small yard. And I wanted one of those "C1s" but the need for two cabs intervened. I made do with a "Dual Loco Pack"- the $29.95 pulse-equipped 2-cab unit- also by MRC. My roster is progressively gaining 'vintage HO'. This "Super-transformer" just popped up on eBay! I ended up paying almost exactly the 1963 MSRP: $82.00. And after 45 years, that big MRC looks just great- and makes my engines, new and old- look great, too!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5697	From: Mike	Date: 3/15/2008
Subject: Springfield Train Fair 2008 - April 6th

The 2008 Springfield (Illinois) Train fair will be held on Sunday, April 6th at the Crowne Plaza Hotel - I-55 Exit 94. Hours are 9 am to 4 pm. Vendors should contact Tracy Bailey at (217) 528-7921 for more information.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5698	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Weekly Withlacoochee River Report & Resurrecting Again

Hi All, As you know, I had a very hectic week at work week before last, just goes to show how much difference a week can make, as this last week wasn't bad, got some things done on the railroad, and was able to restart the 4-6-2 project or Resurrecting The Dinosaurs. Layout progress includes finally getting the turntable built for the most part, also got the roundhouse walls up, didn't realize that a Nickel Plate Berkshire hung over a 90' foot turntable, but guess what? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqLt4J0XTHk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqW2AcoZi9Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BWE9vwAJ5s Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5699	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Snyder" <joegideon@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 9:09 PM Subject: [vintageHO] The Good Things that Come to Those who wait... > Besides the fact that I was around in 1960, my friend Steve Larsen's > (Gunnings Hobbies, > San Anselmo, CA) gift a few years ago of a couple shoe boxes full of '40s > &'50s freight > cars, brought me back! I bought a Revell Enginehouse and some of the yard > bldgs.- > those monuments to the talents of Alan Armitage... Then I found an old > Varney 6v. 4-6- > 0. I had the later one- the 'Casey Jones'- back then. I can remember > wondering why I > never did see any of the larger Varney engines in the hobby shops. I > remember wanting a > Super-Mike and a Berkshire. So.. around Christmastime, the gods were > telling me I had > too much money, so I found a Super 4-6-2, an Economy 4-6-2- the S.P. > engine- and a > nice Berkshire. There were also a couple extra brass tender kits in the > pile. I started > parking the Berkshire- the only one that could be called 'finished'- next > to the likes of a > PFM I.C. "8000" 2-8-4 and a Southern Ms4. -and the old gal looked just > fine! I have > decided that the Varney 2-8-4 is an L&N Class "M", making her fit right in > there with > those southern engines. Now we all know just how smoothly those old > Varney locos are > reputed to run... but I came up with another item that smooths out not > only the Varneys, > but just about anything I felt like throwing at it! And that is, the > Controlmaster I, by Model > Rectifier Corp. > > The Controlmaster I was, if not THE, then one of the first transistorized > throttles marketed > commercially. It was big, fancy- with great big meters- both voltage > and amperage- > and, of course, the special effects! First off, track voltage was > adjustable from the front > panel. There was the usual forward and reverse switch... only this one is > a full inch and a > half long! And when you throw it, it feels like dropping a '58 Cadillac, > with a four-speed > Hydramatic into 'Super'. All the switches are like that. The throttle > knob- complete with > 'crazy mans' wheel' knob- is both without any discernible resistance, but > also a feeling of > simple precision that hasn't been present in very many things recently. > There is a large > lever that allows the engineer to choose from 'direct drive' or a number > of 'transistorized' > functions. Acceleration, inertia and deceleration are adjustable from > barely noticeable to > 'freight train realistic'. > > All this was enclosed in an industrial grade cabinet of copper-colored > anodized aluminum. > In 1963, all this could be had for $79.95.- about the price of a brass > 4-8-4 or 2-10-4. > Using the Consumer Price Index as a guide, that's about $539.00 in today's > dollars! The > Controlmaster II was also available- a smaller version with only > deceleration effects. Both > of these were single cabs- and the ultra high-end "I" supplied D.C. only; > A.C. for the > switch motors needed a separate source! > > My dad and I did a 4' X 8' with a 2-track main(The Great Eastern Trunk, as > in the Atlas > book...) and a small yard. And I wanted one of those "C1s" but the need > for two cabs > intervened. I made do with a "Dual Loco Pack"- the $29.95 pulse-equipped > 2-cab unit- > also by MRC. > > My roster is progressively gaining 'vintage HO'. This "Super-transformer" > just popped up > on eBay! I ended up paying almost exactly the 1963 MSRP: $82.00. And > after 45 years, > that big MRC looks just great- and makes my engines, new and old- look > great, too! Now I'm jealous. My layout is still running a Dual Loco Pack! <G> I bought a control master X on ebay a couple years ago, first time I plugged it in it went "boom" and let out all the magic smoke :-( It still handles the old locomotives fine, but the rheostat is not conducive to controlling the newer low amp draw motors. I am gathering the parts together to build three or four of the "High Capacity" throttles out of the first Thorne book. (I've done a couple of them in the past and they work fine. One ran the NMRA WISE division's "timesaver" switching contest at shows for around 15 years, I believe one of our list members still has it). Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5700	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

I saw the title to this and thought a email i just sent to Henry would be a good fit here too. If you want it, you need to work for it. Persistence is the key:   For example; I have been hounding a guy approximately 30 miles from my home to sell me a 70 fastback Mustang that is sitting in the weeds on his property. I found it 4 years ago while doing a property survey for the adjacent property. I called the courthouse, located the legal owner's name and phone number, then was re-directed to the property co-owner, then to his son. After leaving about 12-14 messages on his answering machine over the course of the first year, he finally answered. He was quite stern and would not sell and finished the call with an abrupt hang-up. I let it go for about a year, then I decided to start calling again.. The number was disconnected, so I had to start all over again. Thai time, when i talked to his parents, i decided to go a different route. I explained my story to them and how i was building mine and wanted to buy his because i needed the parts and his was "rotting away in the field". The first call was with his father, the second was with his mother. I think that was my best move that day. If you ever want to buy something that someone has sitting and rotting away, go to mom. After that, I called ever other month or so for the past two years. Around January, I was headed to Michigan to do some work for/on the Lake and State Rwy. We stopped by the field on the way. The car had been vandalized and parts had been stolen. I immediately called the parents again and told them. I think I called one time in February. Friday... shortly before i was rear-ended on my way home from work, I got a call from the son.. He wants to sell.. not only the car, but all the parts he has at his house too... What a LUCKY DAY!  Yeah, I got into an accident with a much larger SUV shortly after the call, but what the heck, he hit me, so still my lucky day!  Persistence is the key!   Sean Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5701	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

Don, "They" still exist. I say "they" as I also built one for the "O" scale Time-saver that ran along the HO version for maybe a dozen years. And the first was used for most, if not all, of the twenty years that I had Time-savers at Trainfest. Plus I ran their test track for maybe 7 - 8 of those years, also using one or the other of these home built throttles. One of them, I think the original, needs a new potentiometer (it has some dead spots) but other than that they both work just fine. One year I had Werners (rip) steam powered heavy-weight and E7 led light-weight versions for the GN Empire Builder in an eight foot display case. All the cars and drumheads were lit. I used an old train-set power pack to power all those light ...until it smoked about 5 hours into the two-day show. Then I hooked to one of the home built throttles for the rest of the show with no further problems. That was probaly around fifteen years ago. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > Now I'm jealous. My layout is still running a Dual Loco Pack! <G> I bought > a control master X on ebay a couple years ago, first time I plugged it in it > went "boom" and let out all the magic smoke :-( It still handles the old > locomotives fine, but the rheostat is not conducive to controlling the newer > low amp draw motors. > I am gathering the parts together to build three or four of the "High > Capacity" throttles out of the first Thorne book. (I've done a couple of > them in the past and they work fine. One ran the NMRA WISE division's > "timesaver" switching contest at shows for around 15 years, I believe one of > our list members still has it). > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5702	From: rcjge	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

Hi John: Can I trouble you to send me a picture of the Controlmaster 1? can't find one like you describe on line. Best, Gareth > but just about anything I felt like throwing at it! And that is, the Controlmaster I, by Model > Rectifier Corp. > > The Controlmaster I was, if not THE, then one of the first transistorized throttles marketed > commercially. It was big, fancy- with great big meters- both voltage and amperage- > and, of course, the special effects!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5703	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <rcjge@...> wrote: > > Hi John: > > Can I trouble you to send me a picture of the Controlmaster 1? can't > find one like you describe on line. > > Best, > Gareth Gareth, The message you replid to was from Jim Snyder. And he posted a photo of his "Controlmaster 1" in the photos section of this group, in the album titled "Classic Power". John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5704	From: Rick Dorgan	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Mantua 4-6-2 another question

Besides solving the loose drive gear problem I thought since the paint is chipped and loose I would do a repaint, but before that I will file down the flashing and fill a small void in the white metal casting. Which brings me to my question - does solder bond to this stuff? Any suggestions as to what is good to use to fill small casting flaws? Thanks Rick Dorgan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5705	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question

Rick, Normal solder will not bond to the metal in that casting (call it white metal, pot metal or zamak). I use a product called "Solder-it Pot Metal Solder Paste" to fill in the lightbar mounting holes in diecast police cars when modeling clean top squads. It works very well and I have no concern that it will eventually crack or pop out. You can find it on line at http://www.solder-it.com/ John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Dorgan" <nagrod@...> wrote: > > Besides solving the loose drive gear problem I thought since the paint > is chipped and loose I would do a repaint, but before that I will file > down the flashing and fill a small void in the white metal casting. > Which brings me to my question - does solder bond to this stuff? Any > suggestions as to what is good to use to fill small casting flaws? > > Thanks > > Rick Dorgan >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5706	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Binkley Models

In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there is a Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow vestibule) to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement out there. And who was Binkley? The hobby shop owner said these were 1930s-1940s coaches, but he's been wrong before. (He never heard of Picard Novelty till I came along, for example). Thanks, everyone! -Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5707	From: John Barlow	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

Look in the current Walthers catalog (2008). Measure the ones you have and compare what may be available from various DETAIL makers. What's wrong with plastic but okay with metal?   John railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there is a Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow vestibule) to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement out there. And who was Binkley? The hobby shop owner said these were 1930s-1940s coaches, but he's been wrong before. (He never heard of Picard Novelty till I came along, for example). Thanks, everyone! -Steve Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5708	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hmmm.. 30's or 40's?   I was under the impression(possibly wrongly) that narrow vestibules went out well before World War I. No? What about MDC Pullman Palace Cars...were they later?   Fred Hultberg   (resident etching wizard, Fotocut) railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there is a Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow vestibule) to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement out there. And who was Binkley? The hobby shop owner said these were 1930s-1940s coaches, but he's been wrong before. (He never heard of Picard Novelty till I came along, for example). Thanks, everyone! -Steve Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5709	From: AL	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: old varney gondola

I picked this up earlier this week in a lot of oldies I purchased.    seller claims it was from an " entry level train set - circa 1950's " .    see photos, it's marked Varney on the underside of the plastic gondola body, but unmarked on the stamped steel 'frame' - has riveted construction ( frame to body, coupler pockets to body ), and unusual yellow-ish colored X2F couplers.    any comments, info ?    thanks again -    ~ AL    <img src="http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/356f?b=7"> <img src="http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/356f?b=8&m=s&o=0"> <img src="http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/356f?b=8&m=s&o=0">    note: these are in the "AL's old HO goodies " folder, if they don;t show up here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5710	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hi, all, I meant the model was made in the 1930s or 1940s. This is a model of a late 19th century coach, if I am guessing right. Anyway, I don't really know why, but I have a problem with using modern plastic detail parts on vintage cars. I have quite a number of cars that have no plastic on them. So far as the Walthers catalog, I figured that anyone who might make these, may not be in the Walthers catalog. I just figured with the wealth of knolwedge among everyone here, someone might know of a very small company that would make the parts. Oh well, it would be fun to make my own anyway. Be a good relaxing project for a few eveings. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote: > > Hmmm.. 30's or 40's? > > I was under the impression(possibly wrongly) that narrow vestibules went out well before World War I. No? What about MDC Pullman Palace Cars...were they later? > > Fred Hultberg > > (resident etching wizard, Fotocut) > > > > > railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there is a > Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow vestibule) > to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. > > My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I > will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if > anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement > out there. > > And who was Binkley? The hobby shop owner said these were 1930s-1940s > coaches, but he's been wrong before. (He never heard of Picard Novelty > till I came along, for example). > > Thanks, everyone! > > -Steve > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5711	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

HI Fred: Looking thru some of the books in my library, it does seem that the narrow vestibule cars went away prior to 1920. Around that time, a lot of things were happening in the railroad industry, and much change was ongoing. (Billboard boxcar advertising was outlawed, Arch-Bar trucks were being banned from interchange service, air brakes were becoming mandatory, the Janney coupler was being standardized, and 4 ft 8.5" was becoming the new national standard track gauge in the US, and wooden passenger cars were being phased out for fire and safety reasons. Old wood framed trucks and paper wheels were also being outlawed around the same time. "Paper" Wheels were in wide use, and one of the makers of them was Jackson and Sharp, of the late 1800s). The MDC/Roundhouse Pullman Palace cars are most likely pre-1920 models, and represent true "varnish" for their day, as passenger trains were once called. Around the 1940s and 50s, a lot of these older wooden passenger cars ended up as roadside diners, and were pretty common in a lot of parts of the US. (By the way, if you want a set of MDC/Pullman Palace cars, contact me off list. Got some for sale). Stay well, Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5712	From: John Barlow	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

The wood window pane making is best in this case...making any painting easier. Metal window panes need metal primer before color painting...and that would apply to plastic as well. Unless you put a clear coat on first to coat the bare wood, the color paint will look more natural for that era.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...0 railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: Hi, all, I meant the model was made in the 1930s or 1940s. This is a model of a late 19th century coach, if I am guessing right. Anyway, I don't really know why, but I have a problem with using modern plastic detail parts on vintage cars. I have quite a number of cars that have no plastic on them. So far as the Walthers catalog, I figured that anyone who might make these, may not be in the Walthers catalog. I just figured with the wealth of knolwedge among everyone here, someone might know of a very small company that would make the parts. Oh well, it would be fun to make my own anyway. Be a good relaxing project for a few eveings. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@. ..> wrote: > > Hmmm.. 30's or 40's? > > I was under the impression(possibly wrongly) that narrow vestibules went out well before World War I. No? What about MDC Pullman Palace Cars...were they later? > > Fred Hultberg > > (resident etching wizard, Fotocut) > > > > > railwaymodeler <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote: > In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there is a > Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow vestibule) > to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. > > My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I > will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if > anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement > out there. > > And who was Binkley? The hobby shop owner said these were 1930s-1940s > coaches, but he's been wrong before. (He never heard of Picard Novelty > till I came along, for example). > > Thanks, everyone! > > -Steve > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5713	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

Hi Steve: Have heard of Binkley Models, but don't have much info on them. Anyone ever hear of "Dinkey Toys"?? I never knew if they made trains, but they made a lot of cast metal airplanes many moons ago..... Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5714	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

Hi Don: Do you remember Scintilla power packs? They quit around 1958 or so, I think. Up until about a year ago, I had one of those antiques on the layout. Ran well, but it finally gave up the ghost. It smoked one day, so it was time to take it off line, and it was replaced by a fixed-base power supply. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5715	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

Binkley was still around until the very early '60's.  In later years I believe Binkley and Laconia merged, catalogs ca. 1960 show them as one company. I think Binkley as mainly a "1950's" company, while Pickard was around earlier   Dinkey Toys were British die cast, generally around 1:43 scale.  Growing up the two "prestige" lines to use with your Lionel were Dinkey and Corgi. (In fact that's what you see today on many O scale layouts)   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Binkley Models Hi Steve: Have heard of Binkley Models, but don't have much info on them. Anyone ever hear of "Dinkey Toys"?? I never knew if they made trains, but they made a lot of cast metal airplanes many moons ago..... Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5716	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

How about the Selley line from Bowser? Most of their parts were soft metal in rubber molds. ----- Original Message ----- From: "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models > Hi, all, > > I meant the model was made in the 1930s or 1940s. This is a model of a > late 19th century coach, if I am guessing right. > > Anyway, I don't really know why, but I have a problem with using > modern plastic detail parts on vintage cars. I have quite a number of > cars that have no plastic on them. So far as the Walthers catalog, I > figured that anyone who might make these, may not be in the Walthers > catalog. I just figured with the wealth of knolwedge among everyone > here, someone might know of a very small company that would make the > parts. > > Oh well, it would be fun to make my own anyway. Be a good relaxing > project for a few eveings. > > -Steve > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote: >> >> Hmmm.. 30's or 40's? >> >> I was under the impression(possibly wrongly) that narrow > vestibules went out well before World War I. No? What about MDC > Pullman Palace Cars...were they later? >> >> Fred Hultberg >> >> (resident etching wizard, Fotocut) >> >> >> >> >> railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: >> In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there is a >> Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow vestibule) >> to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. >> >> My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I >> will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if >> anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement >> out there. >> >> And who was Binkley? The hobby shop owner said these were 1930s-1940s >> coaches, but he's been wrong before. (He never heard of Picard Novelty >> till I came along, for example). >> >> Thanks, everyone! >> >> -Steve >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5717	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

I remember Scintilla but I never had one, I was mostly an MRC "Golden Throttle Pack" kind of guy.    Don ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait... Hi Don: Do you remember Scintilla power packs? They quit around 1958 or so, I think. Up until about a year ago, I had one of those antiques on the layout. Ran well, but it finally gave up the ghost. It smoked one day, so it was time to take it off line, and it was replaced by a fixed-base power supply. Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5718	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question

Hi Rick, I use Bondo.  Right the automotive auto body filler.  Sticks good, dries hard, easy to sand.  For metal and Wood!! Garrett (Garry) Spear On 3/16/08, Rick Dorgan <nagrod@...> wrote: Besides solving the loose drive gear problem I thought since the paint is chipped and loose I would do a repaint, but before that I will file down the flashing and fill a small void in the white metal casting. Which brings me to my question - does solder bond to this stuff? Any suggestions as to what is good to use to fill small casting flaws? Thanks Rick Dorgan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5719	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

Hi Don: Scintilla power packs were King of the Heap in the mid to late 50s. They were good for their time, and they lasted forever..... Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5720	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question

I had a John English die cast coach that got a big ding in the clerestory from a computer case falling on it (It was an old heavy Compaq, those are built like tanks. I'm surprised the casting didn't shatter!). Anyway, I just repaired this ding using Bondo. Worked very, very well! Couldn't have asked for a smoother repair! -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > Hi Rick, > > I use Bondo. Right the automotive auto body filler. Sticks good, dries > hard, easy to sand. > > For metal and Wood!! > > Garrett (Garry) Spear > > On 3/16/08, Rick Dorgan <nagrod@...> wrote: > > > > Besides solving the loose drive gear problem I thought since the paint > > is chipped and loose I would do a repaint, but before that I will file > > down the flashing and fill a small void in the white metal casting. > > Which brings me to my question - does solder bond to this stuff? Any > > suggestions as to what is good to use to fill small casting flaws? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rick Dorgan > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5721	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

Don: Corgi is still around today, making vehicles. They also make some excellent quality diecast and decorated 1950s propliner airplane models. I have several, most in 1/144 scale (Viscounts, Constellations, Britannia, etc) Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5722	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question

I am sure that auto bondo will be a permanent fix, but I have been successful soldering Mantua cast metal using Tix flux.  Just to be on the safe side, I like to drill, tap and solder a brass screw into the casting, but I found that soldering directly to it appears to be permanent, especially if it is drilled and mounted with a pin.  But, I would probably use bondo if it is just a cosmetic void that will not be near a detail part that you plan on soldering. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: nagrod@... Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:01:51 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua 4-6-2 another question Besides solving the loose drive gear problem I thought since the paint is chipped and loose I would do a repaint, but before that I will file down the flashing and fill a small void in the white metal casting. Which brings me to my question - does solder bond to this stuff? Any suggestions as to what is good to use to fill small casting flaws? Thanks Rick Dorgan Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5723	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait...

My Unipack Junior lasted about 6 years and the rectifier burned out.  Did that ever stink, got a MRC Golden Ampac that is still around, after that a Walthers/Marnold dual powerpack.  That lasted up untill DCC.   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: The Good Things that Come to Those who wait... Hi Don: Scintilla power packs were King of the Heap in the mid to late 50s. They were good for their time, and they lasted forever..... Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5724	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question

That's not authentic damage. We didn't have computers then! 8^) But then, we didn't have Bondo to fix these things. ----- Original Message ----- From: "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 6:52 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question >I had a John English die cast coach that got a big ding in the > clerestory from a computer case falling on it (It was an old heavy > Compaq, those are built like tanks. I'm surprised the casting didn't > shatter!). Anyway, I just repaired this ding using Bondo. Worked very, > very well! Couldn't have asked for a smoother repair! > > -Steve > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, >> >> I use Bondo. Right the automotive auto body filler. Sticks good, dries >> hard, easy to sand. >> >> For metal and Wood!! >> >> Garrett (Garry) Spear >> >> On 3/16/08, Rick Dorgan <nagrod@...> wrote: >> > >> > Besides solving the loose drive gear problem I thought since the > paint >> > is chipped and loose I would do a repaint, but before that I will file >> > down the flashing and fill a small void in the white metal casting. >> > Which brings me to my question - does solder bond to this stuff? Any >> > suggestions as to what is good to use to fill small casting flaws? >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Rick Dorgan >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5725	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

It may be best to make those frames in the car-side, while lying flat on the workbench, from strip plastic in the 'green-stick' method............. Insert and bend to fit....... First the frame, then the sills and mullins. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 16, 2008, at 3:19 PM, railwaymodeler wrote: > In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there is a > Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow vestibule) > to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. > > My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I > will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if > anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement > out there. > > And who was Binkley? The hobby shop owner said these were 1930s-1940s > coaches, but he's been wrong before. (He never heard of Picard Novelty > till I came along, for example).

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5726	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

This post jogged my memory...I sent a few Binkley sheets to Larry for HO-Seeker...and recalled an article in The Reporting Mark on Binkley-Laconia written by Ray Wetzel...it's a good read...in Vol 2 (3), April 1984. Chrs, Russ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5727	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Without being completely accurate........ as for the prototype, as best I can recall......... Narrow vestibules  were only in general use for 5-10 years and completely obsoleted by the wide or full vestibules. I believe this was mainly because of the superior  crash protection that the stronger  wide-vestibules cars provided.  This was in the era when the industry was striving to prevent the telescoping of cars into each other during many crashes. Always a grizzly way to have many people die in a train crash, and very much in the public awareness of the dangers of train travel. The  wide vestibules  were much safer when steel under-frames came into being; all happening around the same time that the narrow-vestibule cars were being built. The approximate date of the use of narrow vestibules would be  mid-90's   Many of those were re-built as the newer wide vestibules, not too long after that date. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 16, 2008, at 3:55 PM, Fred Hultberg wrote: Hmmm.. 30's or 40's?   I was under the impression(possibly wrongly) that narrow vestibules went out well before World War I. No? What about MDC Pullman Palace Cars...were they later?   Fred Hultberg   (resident etching wizard, Fotocut) railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there is a Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow vestibule) to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement out there. And who was Binkley? The hobby shop owner said these were 1930s-1940s coaches, but he's been wrong before. (He never heard of Picard Novelty till I came along, for example). Thanks, everyone!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5728	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

But would they match the Binkley cut-out sides ??? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 16, 2008, at 6:07 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > How about the Selley line from Bowser? Most of their parts were > soft metal > in rubber molds. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "railwaymodeler" > > >> Hi, all, >> >> I meant the model was made in the 1930s or 1940s. This is a model >> of a >> late 19th century coach, if I am guessing right. >> >> Anyway, I don't really know why, but I have a problem with using >> modern plastic detail parts on vintage cars. I have quite a number of >> cars that have no plastic on them. So far as the Walthers catalog, I >> figured that anyone who might make these, may not be in the Walthers >> catalog. I just figured with the wealth of knolwedge among everyone >> here, someone might know of a very small company that would make the >> parts. >> >> Oh well, it would be fun to make my own anyway. Be a good relaxing >> project for a few eveings. .............. >>> >>> railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: >>> In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there >>> is a >>> Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow >>> vestibule) >>> to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5729	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hey Steve........ I have a Binkley business car kit that is missing the narrow vestibule doors........ Is your car kit enough that you could scan the doors or make a flat- view snapshot if that is already assembled, and send that image to me??? It would be quite helpful to me in making my replacements. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA >>> >>> railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: >>> In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there >>> is a >>> Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow >>> vestibule) >>> to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. >>> >>> My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I >>> will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if >>> anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement >>> out there.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5730	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Binkley kits were made from the early 1950s until the mid-sixties. I have several as well as a catalog. They made quite a few "golden era" (1890) passenger cars and did a nice job on them. Their narrow gauge kits, especially the D&RGW 3000 series boxcar, C&S Reefer, and the Dual-Gauge Coupler car were classics of their era. I am deployed overseas right now and can't get to my collection of old Model Railroaders, but there were several reviews of Binkley kits in the 1950s back issues. The Passenger cars were good but not competitive with the (then) new LaBelle offerings and disappeared first. There was a run of the D&RGW boxar made as late as 1966 according to a note in RMC from that era. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > Hi, all, > > I meant the model was made in the 1930s or 1940s. This is a model of a > late 19th century coach, if I am guessing right. > > Anyway, I don't really know why, but I have a problem with using > modern plastic detail parts on vintage cars. I have quite a number of > cars that have no plastic on them. So far as the Walthers catalog, I > figured that anyone who might make these, may not be in the Walthers > catalog. I just figured with the wealth of knolwedge among everyone > here, someone might know of a very small company that would make the > parts. > > Oh well, it would be fun to make my own anyway. Be a good relaxing > project for a few eveings. > > -Steve >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5731	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

Hi Dave, I have several Dinky's, they are great, well detailed, and many of the older models were actually done in 1/48 scale, or very close to it, so tend to match up with O scale very well, they also have a pretty tight following, much more than the Hotwheels cars do, or even Matchbox, (Lesney), at a yard sale about 2 years ago I got a bunch of Dinky's for $2.00, there were other cars in there too, but some of these were American cars, that was one of the great things about Dinky, they did make some cool American cars, as did Corgi............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 5:32:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Binkley Models Hi Steve: Have heard of Binkley Models, but don't have much info on them. Anyone ever hear of "Dinkey Toys"?? I never knew if they made trains, but they made a lot of cast metal airplanes many moons ago..... Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5732	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hi Dave, Just a side note, only railroad owned cars could not have the billboard advertising, private owner cars could still be very colorful, and many are still to this day.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 5:30:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models HI Fred: Looking thru some of the books in my library, it does seem that the narrow vestibule cars went away prior to 1920. Around that time, a lot of things were happening in the railroad industry, and much change was ongoing. (Billboard boxcar advertising was outlawed, Arch-Bar trucks were being banned from interchange service, air brakes were becoming mandatory, the Janney coupler was being standardized, and 4 ft 8.5" was becoming the new national standard track gauge in the US, and wooden passenger cars were being phased out for fire and safety reasons. Old wood framed trucks and paper wheels were also being outlawed around the same time. "Paper" Wheels were in wide use, and one of the makers of them was Jackson and Sharp, of the late 1800s). The MDC/Roundhouse Pullman Palace cars are most likely pre-1920 models, and represent true "varnish" for their day, as passenger trains were once called. Around the 1940s and 50s, a lot of these older wooden passenger cars ended up as roadside diners, and were pretty common in a lot of parts of the US. (By the way, if you want a set of MDC/Pullman Palace cars, contact me off list. Got some for sale). Stay well, Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5733	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hi Fred, The Pullman Palace cars probably stayed in use well into the 1920's, but were phased out in favor of steel, the Pullman Palace cars from MDC are models of very late 19th century prototypes, Horizon has re released these in ready to run format, my local HS has some of the B&O cars, beautiful cars to be sure.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 4:55:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models Hmmm.. 30's or 40's?   I was under the impression(possibly wrongly) that narrow vestibules went out well before World War I. No? What about MDC Pullman Palace Cars...were they later?   Fred Hultberg   (resident etching wizard, Fotocut) railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote: In a box of vintage fix up coaches I bought on eBay, there is a Binkley coach. It looks identical (Right down to the narrow vestibule) to a few Binkley coaches posted in the photo section. My car, is missing about half the window frame inserts. If need be I will make the misisng ones out of stripwood. But I wanted to ask if anyone knew of a NON-PLASTIC (Wood or metal, preferably) replacement out there. And who was Binkley? The hobby shop owner said these were 1930s-1940s coaches, but he's been wrong before. (He never heard of Picard Novelty till I came along, for example). Thanks, everyone! -Steve Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5734	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua 4-6-2 another question

Hi Rick, I use Bondo glazing putty, it can be found in the automotive department of any Wal-Mart, or any Autozone, it goes on smooth, easy to sand, and its cheaper that going to the LHS and buying a much smaller tube of Squadron Green............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Rick Dorgan <nagrod@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 3:01:51 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua 4-6-2 another question Besides solving the loose drive gear problem I thought since the paint is chipped and loose I would do a repaint, but before that I will file down the flashing and fill a small void in the white metal casting. Which brings me to my question - does solder bond to this stuff? Any suggestions as to what is good to use to fill small casting flaws? Thanks Rick Dorgan Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5735	From: erieberk	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

Hi Russ, thanks for the kind words on my Binkley article in "The Reporting Mark" (NMRA H0 Scale Collectors and History SIG Group). Coincidentally, this manufacturer was the next one I intended to do a spread sheet on, with the help of Chuck Higdon to post it to the files. With all the encouragement posted to continue these, I will be doing more of these as time permits, but from some of the threads I've seen on this topic it seems that hardly anyone knows of Binkley so I wonder if its worth doing, unless those few threads are too few to judge this by. For those who may not be able to access the article you cited, I could reprint it here if you think it would be of interest. I wouldn't do the whole piece in one shot as the article took me 6 1/2 typewritten pages to complete when I first did it. If anything, I could do the history on it for those who might be interested. I don't know if all the kit box descriptions would be worthwhile reprinting, but the car listings would be best done as a separate spreadsheet. Give me your thoughts on this. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote: > > This post jogged my memory...I sent a few Binkley sheets to Larry for HO-Seeker...and recalled an article in The Reporting Mark on Binkley- Laconia written by Ray Wetzel...it's a good read...in Vol 2 (3), April 1984. Chrs, Russ > > > Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. > www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5736	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

The Binkley passenger cars did indeed replicate late 19th C. passenger cars. The narrow vestibules disappeared on new cars about 1892 at the time of the Chicago World Columbian Exposition. Of course, quite a few of the narrow cars ran out their lives well into the 20th C. With care, and with prototype knowledge, the Binkley passenger cars could and still can be assembled into very nice models that with some minor contemporary tweaking can and do hold their own quite well today. The many soft metal castings that are a feature of these models are pretty finely done, and since so many of them seem to be identical to those produced by______ Anderson at M.Dale Newton's Red Ball, I have always assumed that Red Ball is where Binkley's castings arose (of course,____ Anderson went on to make all of Kemtron's castings, prior to the formation of his own company, Cal Scale- a line of cast metal parts still produced by Bowser- in China :-(). I have two completed (not by me) Binkley 70' Business cars, and a partially built (by me) quite-unusual 80' narrow vestibuled truss-rodded business car that promised to be unusually handsome. Binkley ended up in Stockton, CA, I believe; and if I recall correctly, was previously located in the one of the lower Calfornia Central Coast communities previously, i.e. Santa Barbara or Ventura, etc. As already mentioned Binkley was both combined and intertwined with Laconia. At what time Laconia ceased being a New Hampshire company and was subsequently purchased or combined with Binkley, I cannot recall at the moment, but I suspect it would have been during the early-mid '50s. -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5737	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Binkley Models ?

Thanks Denny ! Binkley's location here in Stockton on Cherokee lane in a Quanset hut half a mile east of the old Central California Traction Co. car barns . Thanks again Denny , Henry H.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5738	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: New aquisition, a bit strange.

Attachments : Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I don't know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the factory screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number 30443. the other side is 31507. 'Tis a puzzlement. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5739	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

I believe I read somewher that the Govt. did not really "outlaw" cars painted for private owners, but rather passed a rule that a company could refuse to load a car if it was painted with a competitor's add, and the railroad had to provide a different car at their own expense. hence the practice was discontinued as more trouble than it was worth.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models Hi Dave, Just a side note, only railroad owned cars could not have the billboard advertising, private owner cars could still be very colorful, and many are still to this day.........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5740	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I don't > know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the factory > screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number 30443. the > other side is 31507. > > 'Tis a puzzlement. > > Don > Probably one of them Monday cars.... John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5741	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hi Don: That subject is worth researching, but really applied mostly to freight cars that were haulng beers, liquors, etc. This was, as you may recall, during the era of "Prohibition", which may have had something to do with it. The law had a "blanket effect" on all freight car advertising, which spelled the end of "Billboard" advertising on freight cars around that time. Not sure where all this fits together, since there were a lot of things going on in those days that affected trains in general. We had the Depression, Prohibition, post-WW I changes to RR laws, and a host of other events all happening at roughly the same time..... Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5742	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Dave F

Dave As  a Child My  Dad took me to a little hardeware store about ten blocks from out home and everytime I went into the store he would buy be a  Dinky Toy model car the details were where you could just make it out to be the car it was modeled after but very crude by todays standards I never bought any planes but had a large collection of cars, ome day about 20 years ago I unearthed one I had buried about 20 years before, it was in remarkablely good shape for being under ground for 20 or so years. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Binkley Models Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:32:21 EDT Hi Steve: Have heard of Binkley Models, but don't have much info on them. Anyone ever hear of "Dinkey Toys"?? I never knew if they made trains, but they made a lot of cast metal airplanes many moons ago..... Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5743	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Dave F - - - - Back to Charlie

HI Charlie: I never had any Dinkey cars, but I had a lot of Dinkey airplanes. Also crude, but to a 5 years old, they were just as "real" to small eyeballs as the superdetailed trains that followed 50+ years later. Ah, how simple life was back then......(sigh)! Most of those Dinkeys were unpainted, except for being solid silver. The airplanes were mostly the same models: Convairs (twin engine props), and the good old T-33 fighter jet of the day. Don't know whatever happened, to them, guess mother tossed them out... Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5744	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

If this was lettered by the owner rather than MDC at the factory, this is not TOO unusual.  Some (frugal?) folks would use cars for double duty by putting one number on one side and a different one on the other.  That way, when number 12345 was returned to RCA picture tube factory, rather than waiting a whole day or longer, it could be returned to service as 12346 and be used by George's Heavy Machinery.  I have even seen box cars with different road names and logos on opposite sides.  I am not sure, but I may have even read that in a book on Model Railroad Operations. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: don.dellmann@... Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:29:22 -0600 Subject: [vintageHO] New aquisition, a bit strange. Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I don't know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the factory screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number 30443. the other side is 31507. 'Tis a puzzlement. Don Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5745	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hi Don, That very well could be, if you owned a small meat packing plant, and a car with Armour shows up to be loaded with your product, that wouldn't be very nice of the railroad, however, dedicated cars, cars such as the famed Tropicana train which runs out of Florida here, those are definitely painted up for Tropicana, which is owned of course, by Tropicana, those cars are in dedicated service by the owner company, they don't go to competitors, nor are they used to haul anything but orange juice, so that has never been illegal....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 1:39:05 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models I believe I read somewher that the Govt. did not really "outlaw" cars painted for private owners, but rather passed a rule that a company could refuse to load a car if it was painted with a competitor's add, and the railroad had to provide a different car at their own expense. hence the practice was discontinued as more trouble than it was worth.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO]( Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models Hi Dave, Just a side note, only railroad owned cars could not have the billboard advertising, private owner cars could still be very colorful, and many are still to this day......... :o) Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5746	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

Hi Don, Either a mess up at MDC, or the original owner wanted to double his fleet without buying more cars!!!!!!:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 1:29:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] New aquisition, a bit strange. Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I don't know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the factory screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number 30443. the other side is 31507. 'Tis a puzzlement. Don Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5747	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

Don, Those things still happen today. I just recently bought two pair of Kadee Andrews trucks only to find out when I opened the blister packs that BOTH packages had one Andrews truck and one Arch Bar. At least I wound up with two matched pairs. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I don't > know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the factory > screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number 30443. the > other side is 31507. > > 'Tis a puzzlement. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5748	From: trainliker	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

I did a little searching because I vaguely remembered the main reason for banning billboard reefers wasn't what most people believe. http://www.showcaseline.com/Reefers/Billboard/woodreefers.html says: "...In July 1934 the ICC outlawed the painting of billboards as an illegal rebate to the leassee. After that, the leassee name could be no taller than 12"..." (That sounds right to me.) (The gripe below of people feeling they were subsidizing advertising of others also sounds right to me.) http://cs.trains.com/forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&PostID=654182 says: Unfortunately, many organizations argued that the cost of their shipping was subsidizing the advertising for the billboard owner, and there were even situations where a reefer with one owners markings, say a brewery, was sent to ship a product from a chocolate company - or worse yet, a competitors product. As a result of many such complaints, they were outlawed by the Interstate Commerce Commission in July 1934 when they ruled that the lessee's name could be no more than 12" high. By law, all billboard reefers had to be removed from service by January 1937. Of course, many were repainted and continued to provide useful service into the 1960's. " http://www.theoldandwearycarshop.com/URTXHistory.html says: "...The billboard era lasted until July 1934. On this date the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) regulation #201 came into effect. This ruling stated that after that date no more cars could be painted with the lessee's name any larger than 12". As of January 1937 cars painted in billboard schemes could not be accepted for interchange between railroads..." I tried to find #201 but didn't have any luck and gave up after awhile. Chuck Kinzer --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Don, > > That very well could be, if you owned a small meat packing plant, and a car with Armour shows up to be loaded with your product, that wouldn't be very nice of the railroad, however, dedicated cars, cars such as the famed Tropicana train which runs out of Florida here, those are definitely painted up for Tropicana, which is owned of course, by Tropicana, those cars are in dedicated service by the owner company, they don't go to competitors, nor are they used to haul anything but orange juice, so that has never been illegal....:o) > > Gary W > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 1:39:05 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models > > > I believe I read somewher that the Govt. did not really "outlaw" cars painted for private owners, but rather passed a rule that a company could refuse to load a car if it was painted with a competitor's add, and the railroad had to provide a different car at their own expense. hence the practice was discontinued as more trouble than it was worth. > > Don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Woodard > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 4:11 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO]( Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models > > > Hi Dave, > > Just a side note, only railroad owned cars could not have the billboard advertising, private owner cars could still be very colorful, and many are still to this day......... :o) > > Gary W > > > > > > <!-- #ygrp-mkp{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;} #ygrp-mkp hr{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrp-mkp #hd{ color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line- height:122%;margin:10px 0px;} #ygrp-mkp #ads{ margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-mkp .ad{ padding:0 0;} #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ color:#0000ff;text- decoration:none;} --> <!-- #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ font- family:Arial;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ margin:10px 0px;font- weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp- lc .ad{ margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} --> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line- height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family:Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} > #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family:Arial; clear:both;} #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} #ygrp- vitnav a{ padding:0 1px;} #ygrp-actbar{ clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} #ygrp-actbar .left { float:left;white-space:nowrap;} .bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft { font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} #ygrp-ft{ font- family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; padding:5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-reco { margin- bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrp-reco #reco-head { font- weight:bold;color:#ff7900;} #reco-grpname{ font-weight:bold;margin- top:10px;} #reco-category{ font-size:77%;} #reco-desc{ font- size:77%;} #ygrp-vital{ background-color:#e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font- size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text- transform:uppercase;} #ygrp-vital ul{ padding:0;margin:2px 0;} > #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font- weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text- align:right;padding-right:.5em;} #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font- weight:bold;} #ygrp-vital a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color:#999;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style- type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ background- color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding:8px 0;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family:Arial;font- weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp- sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin:0;} o{font-size:0;} .MsoNormal{ margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrp-text tt{ font-size:120%;} blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} .replbq{margin:4;} --> > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5749	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

Except both numbers appear in Ray's MDC factory list, so I'm sure it was packaged that way and the purchaser probably didn't care.  The only reason I really notice it is I kkeep a roster record by car number and use a card order system for operating, so I'm very conscious of the car numbers.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Victor Bitleris To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] New aquisition, a bit strange. If this was lettered by the owner rather than MDC at the factory, this is not TOO unusual.  Some (frugal?) folks would use cars for double duty by putting one number on one side and a different one on the other.  That way, when number 12345 was returned to RCA picture tube factory, rather than waiting a whole day or longer, it could be returned to service as 12346 and be used by George's Heavy Machinery.  I have even seen box cars with different road names and logos on opposite sides.  I am not sure, but I may have even read that in a book on Model Railroad Operations. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: don.dellmann@... Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:29:22 -0600 Subject: [vintageHO] New aquisition, a bit strange. Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I don't know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the factory screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number 30443. the other side is 31507. 'Tis a puzzlement. Don Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5750	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hi Gary: Billboard cars included any kind of car that carried any number of commodities for any number of companies: Examples would be reefers for beers, boxcars for soap companies (Old Dutch Cleanser), hopper cars for "Blue Coal", Express cars for wines, and in the 1970s. some newer cars for 20-Mule Team Borax, etc. The "problem" with the older ads, as one writer pointed out, is that the RRs weren't careful where they spotted these billboard cars. So, you ended up with Chocolate in a beer car, Swift or Babe Ruth candy bars in a wine car, and hay bales (horse food) in boxcars designed and built for the horse and carriage trade. It was a real mess. The Tropicana cars are dedicated reefers who only use the RRs as a conduit to move their cars to specific destinations within the orange juice processing system, and as you have mentioned, are owned by the company bearing the name. In the olden days, these billboard cars weren't necessarily owned by the shippers -- they were just leased or rented, and most were individual cars, rather than fleet cars as with Tropicana today. Had computers been around prior to 1937, the RRs might have been better able to track these cars, and spot, load and manage them more efficiently. In later years, I read somewhere (Trains mag??) that Amtrak was considering, and in fact may have experimented with leasing some of its passenger cars "sides" for use as advertising billboards. Don't know how far this ever progressed, because I don't follow Amtrak. This would have been on an order similar to what some transit city buses do today wherein the whole bus or carbody is painted in one large, rolling billboard ad (as with the Orlando, FL bus system). The Amtrak plan was in the North East somewhere....but again, no new or updated info on it. Locally, Amtrak still runs plain-painted cars -- no ads. (Ads on sides of passenger cars do run regularly in some parts of Europe). Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5751	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

That paint on transit buses is usually a giant, life size peel and stick decal. Pace North Division here in Waukegan, has a number of them. Bus 2423, a NABI 35-LFW (One of the first of such model produced, I'm told) has a Pace 20th anniversary decal on it from 2004. Still holding up nice. Three or four other 35-LFWs have full body wraparounds for Moneygram. As a side note- Pace put a Home Depot decal on, and noticed a few weeks after, that the decal was designed for an Orion V bus, which our divison doesn't even use! It was quickly removed. Yes, I am also a bus enthusiest On railroading, I saw at Chicago Union Station, an Amtrak Horizion fleet coach with what was probably a similar decal, for Wheel of Fortune TV show, on the Hiawatha train. Got off the Metra commuter train further up the same line as the Hiawatha. The Hiawatha roared through at 60 or better had to be, about ten minutes after getting off my train. Had a camera, but forgot the coach was there, and only got a picture of the locomotive, rather than the car. Not sure if that is the program Trains Mag was talking about. Just for what all of it is worth. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > Hi Gary: > > In later years, I read somewhere (Trains mag??) that Amtrak was > considering, and in fact may have experimented with leasing some of > its passenger cars "sides" for use as advertising billboards. Don't know > how far this ever progressed, because I don't follow Amtrak. This would > have been on an order similar to what some transit city buses do today > wherein the whole bus or carbody is painted in one large, rolling billboard > ad (as with the Orlando, FL bus system). The Amtrak plan was in the > North East somewhere....but again, no new or updated info on it. > Locally, Amtrak still runs plain-painted cars -- no ads. (Ads on sides > of passenger cars do run regularly in some parts of Europe). > > Dave F > > > > ************** > It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & > Finance. > (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5752	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hi Steve: Thank you for that updated info on both the bus and Amtrak car. I am aware that Amtrak has also refused "some" ads on its cars. Some years ago, the Dennys Restaurant chain approached Amtrak for signage on some of its cars, but Amtrak declined. Don't know what the criteria is for advertising on Amtrak...but it seems to be local thing within the Amtrak system. Here in SC, we see mostly Superliners, if we see them at all (usually 3 AM), but they are always in Ph 3 or 4 paint only -- no ads). Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5753	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Hi Dave, That is in essence, what I said, beer cars by the way, were owned by the respective breweries, and weren't owned by the railroads, what the problem was that was railroads were selling advertising on the sides of their refrigerator cars, thus causing a problem if they spotted the car with Armour meats on the side of the car at an Oscar Meyer plant, what was outlawed was railroads selling advertising on the sides of their rolling stock, private owner cars, such as a Coors reefer, or a Tropicana reefer are not owned by the railroads, that is why they are called private owner cars.............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 6:30:31 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models Hi Gary: Billboard cars included any kind of car that carried any number of commodities for any number of companies: Examples would be reefers for beers, boxcars for soap companies (Old Dutch Cleanser), hopper cars for "Blue Coal", Express cars for wines, and in the 1970s. some newer cars for 20-Mule Team Borax, etc. The "problem" with the older ads, as one writer pointed out, is that the RRs weren't careful where they spotted these billboard cars. So, you ended up with Chocolate in a beer car, Swift or Babe Ruth candy bars in a wine car, and hay bales (horse food) in boxcars designed and built for the horse and carriage trade. It was a real mess. The Tropicana cars are dedicated reefers who only use the RRs as a conduit to move their cars to specific destinations within the orange juice processing system, and as you have mentioned, are owned by the company bearing the name. In the olden days, these billboard cars weren't necessarily owned by the shippers -- they were just leased or rented, and most were individual cars, rather than fleet cars as with Tropicana today. Had computers been around prior to 1937, the RRs might have been better able to track these cars, and spot, load and manage them more efficiently. In later years, I read somewhere (Trains mag??) that Amtrak was considering, and in fact may have experimented with leasing some of its passenger cars "sides" for use as advertising billboards. Don't know how far this ever progressed, because I don't follow Amtrak. This would have been on an order similar to what some transit city buses do today wherein the whole bus or carbody is painted in one large, rolling billboard ad (as with the Orlando, FL bus system). The Amtrak plan was in the North East somewhere... .but again, no new or updated info on it. Locally, Amtrak still runs plain-painted cars -- no ads. (Ads on sides of passenger cars do run regularly in some parts of Europe). Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolprf00030 000000001) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5754	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Disaster, Disaster

Hi Ya'll, Well darn, I was testing the 4-6-2, and it kept having a binding problem, finally realized that the valve gear on the firemans side was locking up, because it wasn't staying tight against the part on the frame that the guide yolk is supposed to sit on, so I foolishly tried to adjust the part on the frame, and wouldn't you know it, it broke, naturally this is where steam engines create a whole new wave of cussing! I have another frame on order, but this will delay the 4-6-2 project until I get everything back in working order, so for the time being, Resurrecting the Dinosaurs episode 2 will be on hold, I'm not going to sit on my laurels though, I'm going on to episode 3 with another project that has been in the works, I'm going to resurrect an old caboose, an old brass Samhongsa caboose to be exact, this car is in serious need of some TLC.............:o) Gary W __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5755	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

Perhaps he has another just like it! gj 8^) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:29 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New aquisition, a bit strange. > Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I don't > know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the > factory > screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number 30443. > the > other side is 31507. > > 'Tis a puzzlement. > > Don > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5756	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

Another thing about the private owner cars--including billboard cars, is that they have to be returned to the owner directly, by the most direct route. A railroad owned car can go anywhere.  A local example was on the McCloud River RR. They invested in a fleet of the "Thrall-Door" all-door boxcars. These really facilitated loading and unloading with lumber products.  If they had gone out on the road with the "McCRRR" name on them they'd probably never be seen again.  But lettered with owner US Plywood's marks PLYX they had to come back to McCloud, or another USPly mill as requested.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models I believe I read somewher that the Govt. did not really "outlaw" cars painted for private owners, but rather passed a rule that a company could refuse to load a car if it was painted with a competitor's add, and the railroad had to provide a different car at their own expense. hence the practice was discontinued as more trouble than it was worth.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models Hi Dave, Just a side note, only railroad owned cars could not have the billboard advertising, private owner cars could still be very colorful, and many are still to this day.........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5757	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models

Hi Ray, I am ready when you are for the spreadsheet.  I trust when you say reprint it you plan to scan it.  I could do that and post it in the files section if you send me the copy.  Just a thought.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:04 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models   Hi Russ, thanks for the kind words on my Binkley article in "The Reporting Mark" (NMRA H0 Scale Collectors and History SIG Group). Coincidentally, this manufacturer was the next one I intended to do a spread sheet on, with the help of Chuck Higdon to post it to the files. With all the encouragement posted to continue these, I will be doing more of these as time permits, but from some of the threads I've seen on this topic it seems that hardly anyone knows of Binkley so I wonder if its worth doing, unless those few threads are too few to judge this by. For those who may not be able to access the article you cited, I could reprint it here if you think it would be of interest. I wouldn't do the whole piece in one shot as the article took me 6 1/2 typewritten pages to complete when I first did it. If anything, I could do the history on it for those who might be interested. I don't know if all the kit box descriptions would be worthwhile reprinting, but the car listings would be best done as a separate spreadsheet. Give me your thoughts on this. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5758	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: (Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models

valid to some extent, but I recall a number of cars (printed sides, as this was before my time) that advertised the "Prohibition Era" products of the well-known brewers and others.  ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO](Old Passenger Cars...) Binkley Models Hi Don: That subject is worth researching, but really applied mostly to freight cars that were haulng beers, liquors, etc. This was, as you may recall, during the era of "Prohibition", which may have had something to do with it. The law had a "blanket effect" on all freight car advertising, which spelled the end of "Billboard" advertising on freight cars around that time. Not sure where all this fits together, since there were a lot of things going on in those days that affected trains in general. We had the Depression, Prohibition, post-WW I changes to RR laws, and a host of other events all happening at roughly the same time..... Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5759	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New aquisition, a bit strange. > Perhaps he has another just like it! gj 8^) You mean like the couple pair of socks in my drawer? :-) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5760	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

wonder what the chances were on that happening--just one additional customer would have thrown it off--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New aquisition, a bit strange. > Don, > > Those things still happen today. I just recently bought two pair of > Kadee Andrews trucks only to find out when I opened the blister packs > that BOTH packages had one Andrews truck and one Arch Bar. At least > I wound up with two matched pairs. > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5761	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

Igzackly!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New aquisition, a bit strange. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New aquisition, a bit strange. > > >> Perhaps he has another just like it! gj 8^) > > You mean like the couple pair of socks in my drawer? :-) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5762	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

I don't remember where but I have seen that in print more than once. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > > If this was lettered by the owner rather than MDC at the factory, this is not TOO unusual. Some (frugal?) folks would use cars for double duty by putting one number on one side and a different one on the other. That way, when number 12345 was returned to RCA picture tube factory, rather than waiting a whole day or longer, it could be returned to service as 12346 and be used by George's Heavy Machinery. I have even seen box cars with different road names and logos on opposite sides. I am not sure, but I may have even read that in a book on Model Railroad Operations. > > Vic Bitleris > Raleigh, NC > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: don.dellmann@... > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:29:22 -0600 > Subject: [vintageHO] New aquisition, a bit strange. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I don't > > know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the factory > > screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number 30443. the > > other side is 31507. > > > > 'Tis a puzzlement. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html? ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5763	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 3/17/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

Hi, all, Well, I test fitted the parts just now. I have a frame with one side glued to it quite firmly- this is the side that still has most window frames. The side that has come unglued has almost no window frames. Just discovered that the side that was glued firmly, has fishbellied in the middle. The frame appears to be straight as an arrow. Very odd. Of course, the metal roof will not fit correctly now. I have AutoCad on my computer here at home, and I used to make my own paper car sides for paper and wood cars as a teenager using this. (this wasn't so very long ago for me). Anyone ever see a paper and wood litho style cylinder hopper or Thrall door? I have. I'm taking measurements on the Binkley parts that are usable (Frame, ends, and roof assemblies) and making my own sides to put on it. Probably, I'll print it black and white and paint it by hand, and ink the final details. This usually looks quite nice with my touch. Will have to post a pic of this whenever I get it done the way I want it. -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote: > > The Binkley passenger cars did indeed replicate late 19th C. > passenger cars. The narrow vestibules disappeared on new cars about > 1892 at the time of the Chicago World Columbian Exposition. Of > course, quite a few of the narrow cars ran out their lives well into > the 20th C. > > With care, and with prototype knowledge, the Binkley passenger cars > could and still can be assembled into very nice models that with some > minor contemporary tweaking can and do hold their own quite well > today. The many soft metal castings that are a feature of these > models are pretty finely done, and since so many of them seem to be > identical to those produced by______ Anderson at M.Dale Newton's Red > Ball, I have always assumed that Red Ball is where Binkley's castings > arose (of course,____ Anderson went on to make all of Kemtron's > castings, prior to the formation of his own company, Cal Scale- a > line of cast metal parts still produced by Bowser- in China :-(). > > I have two completed (not by me) Binkley 70' Business cars, and a > partially built (by me) quite-unusual 80' narrow vestibuled > truss-rodded business car that promised to be unusually handsome. > > Binkley ended up in Stockton, CA, I believe; and if I recall > correctly, was previously located in the one of the lower Calfornia > Central Coast communities previously, i.e. Santa Barbara or Ventura, > etc. As already mentioned Binkley was both combined and intertwined > with Laconia. At what time Laconia ceased being a New Hampshire > company and was subsequently purchased or combined with Binkley, I > cannot recall at the moment, but I suspect it would have been during > the early-mid '50s. > > > -- > Denny S. Anspach, MD > Sacramento >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5764	From: Scott	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: This Thursday for you CNJ fans

I just thought I'd pass this on to all the CNJ fans here on the groups.   This thursday night at 7pm on 3/20/08 at Memorial Hall in Jim Thorpe will be the second annual Railroad Film Night. The feature presentation is "The Big Little Railroad" a 26 minute color and sound film made for the Central Railroad Company of New Jersey by Roger Wade Productions of New York City as part of the Central's 100th anniversary in 1948. On the 60th anniversary of the film's release, the film will be projected from one of the five original Kodachrome 16mm prints. The film tells the story of how anthracite coal was mined near Wilkes-Barre and shipped to tidewater at the railroad's unloading facility in Jersey City, NJ. Following the film are two short CRRNJ-themed films. Besides theses films there will be a 24 minute Buster Keaton silent comedy "The Railrodder". The final film will show the steam operations of the Delaware and Hudson and the Norfolk and Western Railway. For more information call (610) 824-7730 or email trolleys@...   Scott -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5765	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: This Thursday for you CNJ fans

Scott wrote: > Following the film are two short CRRNJ-themed films. Besides theses > films there will be a 24 minute Buster Keaton silent > comedy "The Railrodder". I have this on a laserdisc and it is not a silent film. There's no talking, just music and sound effects and visual stunts like Keaton's old silent film era movies, and it's filmed in black and white, so it comes across like one. IMDB lists the film as being produced in 1965. The second side of my laserdisc has an interview with Keaton about the making of the film. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "Why should we age and sweat and die early? That's what men are for." -Peggy Bundy, "Married With Children"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5766	From: Scott	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: adding you in your layout...

How many of you have added a little something to your layout that makes it "your" layout? Such as someone who works for a utlility company who has a layout and added a utility company to the layout... I've been tossing around the idea to adding a prison to my layout since I'm a corrections officer and work in one. Of course there aren't any prisons made by any of the manufacturers so I'd have to scratch build it. But I am toying with the idea of putting one on my my layout. Anyone else add something from their real to their layout?   Scott -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5767	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

Steve, referring to a partially-built Binkley passenger car, writes- >Just discovered that the side that was glued firmly, has fishbellied >in the middle. The frame appears to be straight as an arrow. Very odd. >Of course, the metal roof will not fit correctly now. Presuming that it is the paper sides that are being talked about, they are cut from a high grade high-rag-content paper, most commonly Bristol board, the most common brand of which is Strathmore (still very much available in different thicknesses [laminations]). It is wonderful stuff to work with, BUT like all papers, it is prone to warping/expanding with variations in humidity, an event easily prevented from occurring by first routinely sealing *both* sides of the paper. I work with Strathmore all the time and I routinely brush seal with Testors Hot Fuel Proof Sanding Sealer, a very large bottle of which I have had for about 30 years. Any other primer, sealer, or paint would do just as well, however. Denny -- Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5768	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: Dave F - - - - Back to Charlie

Yeah Mom gets the rap for throwing a lot of our good stuff away. Oh Well. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Dave F - - - - Back to Charlie Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:15:19 EDT HI Charlie: I never had any Dinkey cars, but I had a lot of Dinkey airplanes. Also crude, but to a 5 years old, they were just as "real" to small eyeballs as the superdetailed trains that followed 50+ years later. Ah, how simple life was back then......(sigh)! Most of those Dinkeys were unpainted, except for being solid silver. The airplanes were mostly the same models: Convairs (twin engine props), and the good old T-33 fighter jet of the day. Don't know whatever happened, to them, guess mother tossed them out... Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5769	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

How about a chain gang?  I was a Health Inspector--on one layout had a diner called "Ptomaine Ptommy's"  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott To: CNJ-MODELER@yahoogroups.com ; CR-Classic Moderator ; CR-Classic@yahoogroups.com ; HOmodelers@yahoogroups.com ; horailroading ; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com ; NEPAModelRailroadClub@yahoogroups.com ; thehoscalemodelrailroadclub@yahoogroups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] adding you in your layout... How many of you have added a little something to your layout that makes it "your" layout? Such as someone who works for a utlility company who has a layout and added a utility company to the layout... I've been tossing around the idea to adding a prison to my layout since I'm a corrections officer and work in one. Of course there aren't any prisons made by any of the manufacturers so I'd have to scratch build it. But I am toying with the idea of putting one on my my layout. Anyone else add something from their real to their layout?   Scott -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5770	From: Scott	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

It's fitting for that certain era that it would be appropriate for. But then again, Maricopa County still uses them and striped uniforms too!!!   Scott On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: How about a chain gang?  I was a Health Inspector--on one layout had a diner called "Ptomaine Ptommy's"  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott To: CNJ-MODELER@yahoogroups.com ; CR-Classic Moderator ; CR-Classic@yahoogroups.com ; HOmodelers@yahoogroups.com ; horailroading ; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com ; NEPAModelRailroadClub@yahoogroups.com ; thehoscalemodelrailroadclub@yahoogroups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] adding you in your layout... How many of you have added a little something to your layout that makes it "your" layout? Such as someone who works for a utlility company who has a layout and added a utility company to the layout... I've been tossing around the idea to adding a prison to my layout since I'm a corrections officer and work in one. Of course there aren't any prisons made by any of the manufacturers so I'd have to scratch build it. But I am toying with the idea of putting one on my my layout. Anyone else add something from their real to their layout?   Scott -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5771	From: Al Campbell	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I don't > know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the factory > screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number 30443. the > other side is 31507. > > 'Tis a puzzlement. > > Don > Hello Don: I assume that it printed and not a decal. This is not uncommon on Athearn cars. However, I haven't been aware of this happening on MDC cars. I suppose QC can mess up over there as well. Regards, Al Campbell

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5772	From: erieberk	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models

Hi Chuck, Glad to see you're on the ready, and are willing to do another spreasdsheet. Actually, I had intended to post it to you same way as the last one. Until I upgrade, it seems to be beyond my computor's capabilities to scan and send anything of this size. This manufacturer wouldn't be nearly as "involved" or as extensive. I'd still have to do it only a couple pages at at time though, as I think it would work out best that way; I have one typewritten page on Laconia kits and two pages on Binkley kits. Not as much separation into different car types with Binkley either, since I just ran them all in their kit number (numerical) order; even though most types seem to follow in order anyway. There does seem to be a possible glich though, which was brought to my attention off-line, and that's the matter of the material being copyrighted in Dave Spanagel's magazine ("The Reporting Mark"). I don't know exactly how that works however -- I had been under the assumption that original manuscript's copyright protection was first guaranteed to the author. If it comes down to it, I could change a bit of the wording around so it would not be an exact copy as previously published, if that's what it takes. I'll wait to see what transpires in off-line discussion. Best, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I am ready when you are for the spreadsheet. I trust when you say reprint > it you plan to scan it. I could do that and post it in the files section if > you send me the copy. Just a thought. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:04 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models > > > > Hi Russ, thanks for the kind words on my Binkley article in "The > Reporting Mark" (NMRA H0 Scale Collectors and History SIG Group). > Coincidentally, this manufacturer was the next one I intended to do a > spread sheet on, with the help of Chuck Higdon to post it to the > files. With all the encouragement posted to continue these, I will be > doing more of these as time permits, but from some of the threads I've > seen on this topic it seems that hardly anyone knows of Binkley so I > wonder if its worth doing, unless those few threads are too few to > judge this by. > > For those who may not be able to access the article you cited, I could > reprint it here if you think it would be of interest. I wouldn't do > the whole piece in one shot as the article took me 6 1/2 typewritten > pages to complete when I first did it. If anything, I could do the > history on it for those who might be interested. I don't know if all > the kit box descriptions would be worthwhile reprinting, but the car > listings would be best done as a separate spreadsheet. Give me your > thoughts on this. Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5773	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

Scott wrote: > How many of you have added a little something to your layout that makes > it "your" layout? > Such as someone who works for a utility company who has a layout and > added a utility company to > the layout... > I've been tossing around the idea to adding a prison to my layout since > I'm a corrections officer and > work in one. Of course there aren't any prisons made by any of the > manufacturers so I'd have to > scratch build it. But I am toying with the idea of putting one on my my > layout. > Anyone else add something from their real to their layout? Well, not something from real life, but I've toyed with the idea of creating a sort of Devil's Canyon area. In game stores that deal with miniatures wargaming, such as Games Workshop stores, you can find pewter dragons, gargoyles, trolls and other sorts of fanciful creatures in a size reasonable for HO or N scale. The idea of a few of these "menacing" a train as it winds through a deep cut or a dragon perched above a tunnel portal intrigues me. Hey, John Allen had his dino-switcher, after all. :-{) -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5774	From: keith gutshall	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

Hello Scott Maybe a road camp would work,some like in the movie "Cool Hand Luke".  A couple of barracks for them to sleep in and a messhall /cook shack.  With a fence around the whole thing.    Here in Okaloosa County, Fl ,if you call the people form the D.O.C. who clean up along the roads  the "chain gang " than we have them ,too.  Keith Scott <neparailfan@...> wrote: It's fitting for that certain era that it would be appropriate for. But then again, Maricopa County still uses them and striped uniforms too!!!   Scott On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: How about a chain gang?  I was a Health Inspector--on one layout had a diner called "Ptomaine Ptommy's"  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott To: CNJ-MODELER@ yahoogroups. com ; CR-Classic Moderator ; CR-Classic@yahoogro ups.com ; HOmodelers@yahoogro ups.com ; horailroading ; HOtrains@yahoogroup s.com ; NEPAModelRailroadCl ub@yahoogroups. com ; thehoscalemodelrail roadclub@ yahoogroups. com ; vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] adding you in your layout... How many of you have added a little something to your layout that makes it "your" layout? Such as someone who works for a utlility company who has a layout and added a utility company to the layout... I've been tossing around the idea to adding a prison to my layout since I'm a corrections officer and work in one. Of course there aren't any prisons made by any of the manufacturers so I'd have to scratch build it. But I am toying with the idea of putting one on my my layout. Anyone else add something from their real to their layout?   Scott -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadCl ub-subscribe@ yahoogroups. com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitary Modeler-subscrib e@yahoogroups. com -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadCl ub-subscribe@ yahoogroups. com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitary Modeler-subscrib e@yahoogroups. com Deep Run Portage Back Shop " The Lizard Works" Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5775	From: Scott	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: This Thursday for you CNJ fans

Ahhh thanks for the correction but I just typed form the Pocono Record here word for word what was in the article.   Scottt On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: Scott wrote: > Following the film are two short CRRNJ-themed films. Besides theses > films there will be a 24 minute Buster Keaton silent > comedy "The Railrodder". I have this on a laserdisc and it is not a silent film. There's no talking, just music and sound effects and visual stunts like Keaton's old silent film era movies, and it's filmed in black and white, so it comes across like one. IMDB lists the film as being produced in 1965. The second side of my laserdisc has an interview with Keaton about the making of the film. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "Why should we age and sweat and die early? That's what men are for." -Peggy Bundy, "Married With Children" -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5776	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: New aquisition, a bit strange.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New aquisition, a bit strange. > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> Got one of the MDC low side diecast gondolas last week on eBay. I > don't >> know if the modeller had more than one and mixed them up, or if the > factory >> screwed up and he never noticed, but one side carries the number > 30443. the >> other side is 31507. >> >> 'Tis a puzzlement. >> >> Don >> > Hello Don: I assume that it printed and not a decal. This is not > uncommon on Athearn cars. However, I haven't been aware of this > happening on MDC cars. I suppose QC can mess up over there as well. > Regards, Al Campbell Yes, it is factory lettering. Since these were kits, I'm assuming the sides got mixed up at the factory when the kit was packed. I just thought it a bit of a curiosity. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5777	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: Binkley Models

Hi Ray, Ok, what ever is best for you?  I know I do not know the law about copyrights.  I would  think if you wrote it and did not sell it, that you could do what you want with it.  But I am wrong about a lot of things. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models   Hi Chuck, Glad to see you're on the ready, and are willing to do another spreasdsheet. Actually, I had intended to post it to you same way as the last one. Until I upgrade, it seems to be beyond my computor's capabilities to scan and send anything of this size. This manufacturer wouldn't be nearly as "involved" or as extensive. I'd still have to do it only a couple pages at at time though, as I think it would work out best that way; I have one typewritten page on Laconia kits and two pages on Binkley kits. Not as much separation into different car types with Binkley either, since I just ran them all in their kit number (numerical) order; even though most types seem to follow in order anyway. There does seem to be a possible glich though, which was brought to my attention off-line, and that's the matter of the material being copyrighted in Dave Spanagel's magazine ("The Reporting Mark"). I don't know exactly how that works however -- I had been under the assumption that original manuscript's copyright protection was first guaranteed to the author. If it comes down to it, I could change a bit of the wording around so it would not be an exact copy as previously published, if that's what it takes. I'll wait to see what transpires in off-line discussion. Best, Ray _,_._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5778	From: Martin Rosenfeld	Date: 3/18/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

I am a retired physician. On my 1900 layout I have a three story wooden hospital and I plan to modify a Jordan vehicle to be a horse drawn ambulance. Of course I will include the venerable doctor's house by Campbell. I hope to finish all this before I end up in my own hospital. Martin Rosenfeld

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5779	From: jay matz	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

On our layout we have named industry's  for members or people that have helped us. Dewalds Produce, J. Rap & sons, J Philipi & Sons, Cope's Rubber Goods, Jon's Rubber Co., Thorp's Coal, Folk"s Coal, Jon H. Olson Chemical. The town of Danielle and Lewis. Bar Mills Kits some are named for modelers and friends of Art. I think it makes the layout more personal. Jay Matz see the RR at http://dlw-model-rr.com/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5780	From: Scott	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

That is definitely different. Something I've not seen yet anywhere.   Scott On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: Scott wrote: > How many of you have added a little something to your layout that makes > it "your" layout? > Such as someone who works for a utility company who has a layout and > added a utility company to > the layout... > I've been tossing around the idea to adding a prison to my layout since > I'm a corrections officer and > work in one. Of course there aren't any prisons made by any of the > manufacturers so I'd have to > scratch build it. But I am toying with the idea of putting one on my my > layout. > Anyone else add something from their real to their layout? Well, not something from real life, but I've toyed with the idea of creating a sort of Devil's Canyon area. In game stores that deal with miniatures wargaming, such as Games Workshop stores, you can find pewter dragons, gargoyles, trolls and other sorts of fanciful creatures in a size reasonable for HO or N scale. The idea of a few of these "menacing" a train as it winds through a deep cut or a dragon perched above a tunnel portal intrigues me. Hey, John Allen had his dino-switcher, after all. :-{) -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it. -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5781	From: Scott	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

It's funny things are perceived and how things have changed. Up here we have guys who go out to clean up the road accompanied by one armed officer who watches them wander around, sometimes pretty far from the vehicle as they are cleaning. But then again only certain inmates are handpicked to do road work.   Keith, do me a favor and contact me off list. I have a question.   Scott     On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:28 PM, keith gutshall <drpshops@...> wrote: Hello Scott Maybe a road camp would work,some like in the movie "Cool Hand Luke".  A couple of barracks for them to sleep in and a messhall /cook shack.  With a fence around the whole thing.    Here in Okaloosa County, Fl ,if you call the people form the D.O.C. who clean up along the roads  the "chain gang " than we have them ,too.  Keith Scott <neparailfan@...> wrote: It's fitting for that certain era that it would be appropriate for. But then again, Maricopa County still uses them and striped uniforms too!!!   Scott On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: How about a chain gang?  I was a Health Inspector--on one layout had a diner called "Ptomaine Ptommy's"  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott To: CNJ-MODELER@yahoogroups.com ; CR-Classic Moderator ; CR-Classic@yahoogroups.com ; HOmodelers@yahoogroups.com ; horailroading ; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com ; NEPAModelRailroadClub@yahoogroups.com ; thehoscalemodelrailroadclub@yahoogroups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] adding you in your layout... How many of you have added a little something to your layout that makes it "your" layout? Such as someone who works for a utlility company who has a layout and added a utility company to the layout... I've been tossing around the idea to adding a prison to my layout since I'm a corrections officer and work in one. Of course there aren't any prisons made by any of the manufacturers so I'd have to scratch build it. But I am toying with the idea of putting one on my my layout. Anyone else add something from their real to their layout?   Scott -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Deep Run Portage Back Shop " The Lizard Works" Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5782	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

If painting stripes on the figures is too much  in HO, Modern cleanup crews wear orange jump suits. CalFire (formerly Calif Div. of Forestry) runs camps here--I think Walthers has the crew trucks in their catalog--also same trucks lettered USFS.    In my brief career with Calif Parks, I had occasion to supervise these crews.  Forestry Officer said they make no effort to keep the inmates from taking off.  They know where they will go if they take off,  and are there waiting.  Most of the inmates are smart enough to know that they have it rather good in the crews, and any misbehavior would result in getting sent back to "the Big House". ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] adding you in your layout...   On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:28 PM, keith gutshall <drpshops@...> wrote: Hello Scott Maybe a road camp would work,some like in the movie "Cool Hand Luke".  A couple of barracks for them to sleep in and a messhall /cook shack.  With a fence around the whole thing.    Here in Okaloosa County, Fl ,if you call the people form the D.O.C. who clean up along the roads  the "chain gang " than we have them ,too.  Keith Scott <neparailfan@...> wrote: It's fitting for that certain era that it would be appropriate for. But then again, Maricopa County still uses them and striped uniforms too!!!   Scott On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: How about a chain gang?  I was a Health Inspector--on one layout had a diner called "Ptomaine Ptommy's"  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott To: CNJ-MODELER@yahoogroups.com ; CR-Classic Moderator ; CR-Classic@yahoogroups.com ; HOmodelers@yahoogroups.com ; horailroading ; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com ; NEPAModelRailroadClub@yahoogroups.com ; thehoscalemodelrailroadclub@yahoogroups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] adding you in your layout... How many of you have added a little something to your layout that makes it "your" layout? Such as someone who works for a utlility company who has a layout and added a utility company to the layout... I've been tossing around the idea to adding a prison to my layout since I'm a corrections officer and work in one. Of course there aren't any prisons made by any of the manufacturers so I'd have to scratch build it. But I am toying with the idea of putting one on my my layout. Anyone else add something from their real to their layout?   Scott -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Deep Run Portage Back Shop " The Lizard Works" Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5783	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Golden Car Series

In todays mail the AHM watermelon car I mentioned previously... although it is the same model basically, it has some features quite different to the others I have.. when I checked the reviews in the magazines of the era I found that this one is like those described there - most obvious, truck mounted couplers - the others I have came with body mounted couplers. Also, this car has different weathering on the two sides while the others all have identical weathering and graffitti on both sides. So apparently these cars were produced long enought to be in a revision. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5784	From: keith gutshall	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

Hello Scott What is your question?  Keith Scott <neparailfan@...> wrote: It's funny things are perceived and how things have changed. Up here we have guys who go out to clean up the road accompanied by one armed officer who watches them wander around, sometimes pretty far from the vehicle as they are cleaning. But then again only certain inmates are handpicked to do road work.   Keith, do me a favor and contact me off list. I have a question.   Scott     On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:28 PM, keith gutshall <drpshops@yahoo. com> wrote: Hello Scott Maybe a road camp would work,some like in the movie "Cool Hand Luke".  A couple of barracks for them to sleep in and a messhall /cook shack.  With a fence around the whole thing.    Here in Okaloosa County, Fl ,if you call the people form the D.O.C. who clean up along the roads  the "chain gang " than we have them ,too.  Keith Scott <neparailfan@ gmail.com> wrote: It's fitting for that certain era that it would be appropriate for. But then again, Maricopa County still uses them and striped uniforms too!!!   Scott On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 1:31 PM, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: How about a chain gang?  I was a Health Inspector--on one layout had a diner called "Ptomaine Ptommy's"  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott To: CNJ-MODELER@ yahoogroups. com ; CR-Classic Moderator ; CR-Classic@yahoogro ups.com ; HOmodelers@yahoogro ups.com ; horailroading ; HOtrains@yahoogroup s.com ; NEPAModelRailroadCl ub@yahoogroups. com ; thehoscalemodelrail roadclub@ yahoogroups. com ; vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] adding you in your layout... How many of you have added a little something to your layout that makes it "your" layout? Such as someone who works for a utlility company who has a layout and added a utility company to the layout... I've been tossing around the idea to adding a prison to my layout since I'm a corrections officer and work in one. Of course there aren't any prisons made by any of the manufacturers so I'd have to scratch build it. But I am toying with the idea of putting one on my my layout. Anyone else add something from their real to their layout?   Scott -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadCl ub-subscribe@ yahoogroups. com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitary Modeler-subscrib e@yahoogroups. com -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadCl ub-subscribe@ yahoogroups. com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitary Modeler-subscrib e@yahoogroups. com Deep Run Portage Back Shop " The Lizard Works" Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadCl ub-subscribe@ yahoogroups. com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitary Modeler-subscrib e@yahoogroups. com Deep Run Portage Back Shop " The Lizard Works" Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5785	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/19/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

I think for years ( actually, decades but there were twenty years without Railroads between) about creating a really realistic scrapyard. Not the sort regularly featured in model rr magazines, with old clock gears, cut off F7 cabs and orphan steam loco drivers - one that would look like the real thing , with car wrecks in the process of dismantling, and all sorts of scale machinery .... in a earlier life I have spent years scrounging those places so I should be able to do this correctly. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5786	From: Jack Priller	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Trolley track

Not quite sure how "vintage" this might be, but I am trying to locate enough of the 'trolley track in the street' made for/by Tyco(?) so that I can run just a small loop for an On30 4-wheel Birney. I could not locate any on eBay, but that might be a search-word(s) error on my part. Would try doing it myself, but the corners are likely to cause me to put kinks, etc. in them. So if any one has, or knows where I can find, at least four corners, I would appreciate hearing from you. Heck, If someone has a better set of words to search eBay, even that would be a big help. Jack Priller El Paso, TX

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5787	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: Trolley track

Jack, Take a look at this. http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3140 Walthers has a set of inserts for street trackage available in concrete, brick or asphalt. It includes curves of various radii and it is at a reduced price for today only. Also there is a set on ebay, item number 380007539260. WHen looking in ebay, I suggest you go to Toys & Hobbies > Model RR, Trains > HO Scale > and then search by key word(s). Or you can go to TYCO or any number of other brands. If you select TYCO, then search for track or, as I did to find the Walthers set, after you get to HO Scale, enter "street track" in the search box. Hope this helps. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...> wrote: > > Not quite sure how "vintage" this might be, but I am trying to > locate enough of the 'trolley track in the street' made for/by Tyco (?) > so that I can run just a small loop for an On30 4-wheel Birney. I > could not locate any on eBay, but that might be a search-word(s) error > on my part. Would try doing it myself, but the corners are likely to > cause me to put kinks, etc. in them. > > So if any one has, or knows where I can find, at least four > corners, I would appreciate hearing from you. Heck, If someone has a > better set of words to search eBay, even that would be a big help. > > Jack Priller > El Paso, TX >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5788	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Tyco Trolley Track ?

Jack . I think John H. is doing you a favor , when this stuff comes up for bids , and it's not often , it goes very high . Not exactly in a retired gent's price range . Henry H.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5789	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: Trolley track

Jack Priller wrote: > Not quite sure how "vintage" this might be, but I am trying to > locate enough of the 'trolley track in the street' made for/by Tyco(?) > so that I can run just a small loop for an On30 4-wheel Birney. I > could not locate any on eBay, but that might be a search-word(s) error > on my part. Would try doing it myself, but the corners are likely to > cause me to put kinks, etc. in them. > > So if any one has, or knows where I can find, at least four > corners, I would appreciate hearing from you. Heck, If someone has a > better set of words to search eBay, even that would be a big help. > > > Jack, they show up from time to time but not to often... I regularly check for "Trolley" stuff at eBay , you maybe have to wait for one or two months. Hartel and Rivarossi sold similar tracks, but they may be ever more difficult to locate. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5790	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

Here is my contribution to the "junkyard" scene. The building behind the scene has a sign that says "Mike's Junk", which pretty much tells you the story of my life in two words. :-) <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_23.html> Mike Gerold Eckl wrote: > > > I think for years ( actually, decades but there were twenty years > without Railroads between) about creating a really realistic scrapyard. > Not the sort regularly featured in model rr magazines, with old clock > gears, cut off F7 cabs and orphan steam loco drivers - one that would > look like the real thing , with car wrecks in the process of > dismantling, and all sorts of scale machinery .... in a earlier life I > have spent years scrounging those places so I should be able to do > this correctly. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5791	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote: > > Here is my contribution to the "junkyard" scene. The building behind the > scene has a sign that says "Mike's Junk", which pretty much tells you > the story of my life in two words. :-) > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_23.html> > > Mike > Geez, Here I am looking for some realistic, true-to-life model RR scenes and some guy goes and puts in a link to a photo of a bunch of junk. What ever happened to nice neat model railroads with them spotless, shiney, clean as a whistle steam locomotives and smooth waxed roadways, eh? John Hagen.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5792	From: trainliker	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

Watch out for falling in the "there's a prototype for everything" trap. There was a big scrapyard outside Chicago not to far from the EMD plant. It was called "Pilot Bros." or something (I think I have the spelling wrong.) In the scrapyard was a cut off nose of an F unit just like somebody had planted it on a model railroad. It looked very "unrealistic" except for the fact it was real. I've got slide of it somewhere. It's too much bother to find it, but if I ever run across it, maybe I'll post it. Chuck Kinzer --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > I think for years ( actually, decades but there were twenty years > without Railroads between) about creating a really realistic scrapyard. > Not the sort regularly featured in model rr magazines, with old clock > gears, cut off F7 cabs and orphan steam loco drivers - one that would > look like the real thing , with car wrecks in the process of > dismantling, and all sorts of scale machinery .... in a earlier life I > have spent years scrounging those places so I should be able to do > this correctly. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5793	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

I was only responding to someone's wish to see a "real junkyard" modeled, John. The fact is that I model Northeastern PA in the mid '60s, and if you find anything spotless or shiny in that area, it is probably the local funeral home hearse. :-) Everything else was pretty grimy and run down. We tend to model what we know, and that is what I knew when I started getting serious about my model railroading. Mike John Hagen wrote: > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, > Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote: > > > > Here is my contribution to the "junkyard" scene. The building behind > the > > scene has a sign that says "Mike's Junk", which pretty much tells you > > the story of my life in two words. :-) > > > > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_23.html > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_23.html>> > > > > Mike > > > Geez, > > Here I am looking for some realistic, true-to-life model RR scenes and > some guy goes and puts in a link to a photo of a bunch of junk. What > ever happened to nice neat model railroads with them spotless, shiney, > clean as a whistle steam locomotives and smooth waxed roadways, eh? > > John Hagen.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5794	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

> > Here I am looking for some realistic, true-to-life model RR scenes and > some guy goes and puts in a link to a photo of a bunch of junk. What > ever happened to nice neat model railroads with them spotless, shiney, > clean as a whistle steam locomotives and smooth waxed roadways, eh? > Maybe the way steam locos , personal service, the Milwaukee Road, and many other fine things went ? Seriously, often a damaged or abandoned vehicle can tell an fascinating story - most likely it has seen more than a well preserved one. This somehow transfers to models too. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5795	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re,.Re: [vintageHO] Tyco Trolley Track ?

Henry Quite Frankly there is not much in very many peoples price range on ebay when it comes to HO that I have seen, even what I would have thrown ouot today in the trash seems to go for an arm and a leg. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henry Hultgren" <long95209@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco Trolley Track ? > Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:10:43 -0000 > > > Jack . I think John H. is doing you a favor , when this stuff comes > up for bids , and it's not often , it goes very high . Not exactly in > a retired gent's price range . Henry H. > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5796	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

D@mn! That looks like my basement!!! :-) --- Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote: > Here is my contribution to the "junkyard" scene. The > building behind the > scene has a sign that says "Mike's Junk", which > pretty much tells you > the story of my life in two words. :-) > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_23.html> > > Mike > > Gerold Eckl wrote: > > > > > > I think for years ( actually, decades but there > were twenty years > > without Railroads between) about creating a really > realistic scrapyard. > > Not the sort regularly featured in model rr > magazines, with old clock > > gears, cut off F7 cabs and orphan steam loco > drivers - one that would > > look like the real thing , with car wrecks in the > process of > > dismantling, and all sorts of scale machinery .... > in a earlier life I > > have spent years scrounging those places so I > should be able to do > > this correctly. > > > > Gerold > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5797	From: AL	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: AHM watermelon car

> 2.1. Re: AHM Golden Car Series > Posted by: "Gerold Eckl" corv8@... corv9 > Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:12 pm ((PDT)) > > In todays mail the AHM watermelon car I mentioned previously... although > it is the same model basically, it has some features quite different to > the others I have.. when I checked the reviews in the magazines of the > era I found that this one is like those described there - most obvious, > truck mounted couplers - the others I have came with body mounted > couplers. Also, this car has different weathering on the two sides while > the others all have identical weathering and graffitti on both sides. So > apparently these cars were produced long enought to be in a revision. > > Gerold Did you post a pic of this car ? ( sorry, I get the digest, and if it was posted in the message I don;t see em ). I have one of the AHM Watermelon cars with the body mounted couplers ( not sure this is 'vintage enough' for this list, lol ... was not sure what others were released or that there was a whole series , so behind-the-times on that, just caught this thread with this post. Will check my car re: the side to side weathering difference, and get pic(s) if I can . ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5798	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: AHM watermelon car

> > Did you post a pic of this car ? ( sorry, I get the digest, and if it was > posted in the message I don;t see em ). > > I have one of the AHM Watermelon cars with the body mounted couplers ( not > sure this is 'vintage enough' for this list, lol ... > was not sure what others were released or that there was a whole series , > so behind-the-times on that, just caught this thread with this post. > > Will check my car re: the side to side weathering difference, and get > pic(s) if I can . > > ~ AL > will take pictures of all four cars tomorrow if time permits; I am in the midst of a challenging project on the layout just now. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5799	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re,.Re: [vintageHO] Tyco Trolley Track ?

Thanks Charles . you are quite right about stuff that you'd throw out .As far as price goes , the new stuff isn't cheap either , just new . Henry--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > > Henry > Quite Frankly there is not much in very many peoples price range on ebay when it comes to HO that I have seen, even what I would have thrown ouot today in the trash seems to go for an arm and a leg. > Charlie > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Henry Hultgren" <long95209@...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco Trolley Track ? > > Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:10:43 -0000 > > > > > > Jack . I think John H. is doing you a favor , when this stuff comes > > up for bids , and it's not often , it goes very high . Not exactly in > > a retired gent's price range . Henry H. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Want an e-mail address like mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5800	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

I use a totally different approach with my junk yard. It is filled with "HO kit" junk. Bits and pieces of HO kits that I have collected over the past fifty plus years. Whenever I start a new project and I need a part, I check my junkyard first. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote: > > Here is my contribution to the "junkyard" scene. The building behind the > scene has a sign that says "Mike's Junk", which pretty much tells you > the story of my life in two words. :-) > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_23.html > > > Mike > > Gerold Eckl wrote: > > > > > > I think for years ( actually, decades but there were twenty years > > without Railroads between) about creating a really realistic scrapyard. > > Not the sort regularly featured in model rr magazines, with old clock > > gears, cut off F7 cabs and orphan steam loco drivers - one that would > > look like the real thing , with car wrecks in the process of > > dismantling, and all sorts of scale machinery .... in a earlier life I > > have spent years scrounging those places so I should be able to do > > this correctly. > > > > Gerold > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5801	From: Don Grant	Date: 3/20/2008
Subject: Re: Trolley track

I believe a British firm also made a street track system. Don John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: Jack, Take a look at this. http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3140 Walthers has a set of inserts for street trackage available in concrete, brick or asphalt. It includes curves of various radii and it is at a reduced price for today only. Also there is a set on ebay, item number 380007539260. WHen looking in ebay, I suggest you go to Toys & Hobbies > Model RR, Trains > HO Scale > and then search by key word(s). Or you can go to TYCO or any number of other brands. If you select TYCO, then search for track or, as I did to find the Walthers set, after you get to HO Scale, enter "street track" in the search box. Hope this helps. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Priller" wrote: > > Not quite sure how "vintage" this might be, but I am trying to > locate enough of the 'trolley track in the street' made for/by Tyco (?) > so that I can run just a small loop for an On30 4-wheel Birney. I > could not locate any on eBay, but that might be a search-word(s) error > on my part. Would try doing it myself, but the corners are likely to > cause me to put kinks, etc. in them. > > So if any one has, or knows where I can find, at least four > corners, I would appreciate hearing from you. Heck, If someone has a > better set of words to search eBay, even that would be a big help. > > Jack Priller > El Paso, TX > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5802	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

I find it fun to include "something from the future" in a junk yard scene--see if anyone notices. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:15 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: adding you in your layout...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5803	From: Frank Weed	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Trolley track

Jack   Let me look in my box of stuff. I've got the inserts and other street parts for in street trackage. I used that for my trolley part of a layout that I was doing. If I do have it, I'll let you know and it won't cost a lot. Just enough to cover the cost of shipping and a little spare change.   Frank Weed busgrouches@... MP 254 BNSF Lampasas Sub On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Jack Priller <westpac67@...> wrote: Not quite sure how "vintage" this might be, but I am trying to locate enough of the 'trolley track in the street' made for/by Tyco(?) so that I can run just a small loop for an On30 4-wheel Birney. I could not locate any on eBay, but that might be a search-word(s) error on my part. Would try doing it myself, but the corners are likely to cause me to put kinks, etc. in them. So if any one has, or knows where I can find, at least four corners, I would appreciate hearing from you. Heck, If someone has a better set of words to search eBay, even that would be a big help. Jack Priller El Paso, TX

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5804	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM watermelon car

Hi AL > > Did you post a pic of this car ? ( sorry, I get the digest, and if it was > posted in the message I don;t see em ). > > I have one of the AHM Watermelon cars with the body mounted couplers ( not > sure this is 'vintage enough' for this list, lol ... > was not sure what others were released or that there was a whole series , > so behind-the-times on that, just caught this thread with this post. > > Will check my car re: the side to side weathering difference, and get > pic(s) if I can . > > ~ AL > > Have created an Album with pictures of the three Watermelon cars, and the Golden Series stock car Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5805	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Introduction (Vintage HO)

My Name is Charles (Charlie, but my mother threw a fit if she heard anyone call me that), I mainly collect HO scale as for Vintage I am sure some of the stuff I have is vintage the last thing I bought was roghly 15 years ago and I used to buy anything that other Modelers decided they did not want anymore. My first Engine was a TYCO Southern Cresent Limited which I bought before I went into the Air Force In '72. I have many engines in boxes which never fhave been run on any tracks, but I do not know if any of them are old enough to be included. Like most things I do not have room for a layout, esp. not one with all of my rolling stock (roughly 1500 cars),and motive power (somewhere in teh neighborhood of 500 engines), to be used, but I always have high hopes of running into big money and starting and finishing a nice layout before I die. I happen to live I Southern Illinois. I  got started in Railroading because my Father worked on the NYC in Southern Illinois until he retired from CONRAIL, I believe in '82 he had 34 years on the line. This is a short history of my model railroading. Thanks Charlie P.S. What I really want is a Varney Aero-Train to mark in NYC. C.A.W.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Higdon" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:58:24 -0400 Hi Ray, Ok, what ever is best for you?  I know I do not know the law about copyrights.  I would  think if you wrote it and did not sell it, that you could do what you want with it.  But I am wrong about a lot of things. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models   Hi Chuck, Glad to see you're on the ready, and are willing to do another spreasdsheet. Actually, I had intended to post it to you same way as the last one. Until I upgrade, it seems to be beyond my computor's capabilities to scan and send anything of this size. This manufacturer wouldn't be nearly as "involved" or as extensive. I'd still have to do it only a couple pages at at time though, as I think it would work out best that way; I have one typewritten page on Laconia kits and two pages on Binkley kits. Not as much separation into different car types with Binkley either, since I just ran them all in their kit number (numerical) order; even though most types seem to follow in order anyway. There does seem to be a possible glich though, which was brought to my attention off-line, and that's the matter of the material being copyrighted in Dave Spanagel's magazine ("The Reporting Mark"). I don't know exactly how that works however -- I had been under the assumption that original manuscript's copyright protection was first guaranteed to the author. If it comes down to it, I could change a bit of the wording around so it would not be an exact copy as previously published, if that's what it takes. I'll wait to see what transpires in off-line discussion. Best, Ray _,_._,___ -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5806	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Welcome, Charles(in case your Mom is watching) !   We have a really unique and rather nice group here - all about "vintage" HO. Some of the members(such as myself) are "vintage," too! Charles Windes <cwindes@...> wrote: My Name is Charles (Charlie, but my mother threw a fit if she heard anyone call me that), I mainly collect HO scale as for Vintage I am sure some of the stuff I have is vintage the last thing I bought was roghly 15 years ago and I used to buy anything that other Modelers decided they did not want anymore. My first Engine was a TYCO Southern Cresent Limited which I bought before I went into the Air Force In '72. I have many engines in boxes which never fhave been run on any tracks, but I do not know if any of them are old enough to be included. Like most things I do not have room for a layout, esp. not one with all of my rolling stock (roughly 1500 cars),and motive power (somewhere in teh neighborhood of 500 engines), to be used, but I always have high hopes of running into big money and starting and finishing a nice layout before I die. I happen to live I Southern Illinois. I  got started in Railroading because my Father worked on the NYC in Southern Illinois until he retired from CONRAIL, I believe in '82 he had 34 years on the line. This is a short history of my model railroading. Thanks Charlie P.S. What I really want is a Varney Aero-Train to mark in NYC. C.A.W.   Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5807	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

HI Charlie: JMC/Concor is getting ready to release a newly tooled and updated Aerotrain. Contact them or your local hobby shop and see if you can get one ordered, since these will be short-run production items. Go to this site to view the Aerotrain in detail: www.all-railroads.com/ Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5808	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

$ 429.98 for a loco and 3 cars, two additional 3 car sets at $ 219.98 each set, made in China, they probably won't stay on the track any better than any other Chinese passenger car (a common lament on all the other HO lists), and when the locomotive dies it won't be repairable, no parts, and my Bowser version of the old Varney one that I paid a hundred bucks for (still the going rate), will still be running.  That's why we love Vintage here.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) HI Charlie: JMC/Concor is getting ready to release a newly tooled and updated Aerotrain. Contact them or your local hobby shop and see if you can get one ordered, since these will be short-run production items. Go to this site to view the Aerotrain in detail: www.all-railroads.com/ Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5809	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Aerotrain/ Zephyr

WK2SHR@... wrote: > HI Charlie: > > JMC/Concor is getting ready to release a newly tooled and updated > Aerotrain. Contact them or your local hobby shop and see if you can > get one ordered, since these will be short-run production items. > > Go to this site to view the Aerotrain in detail: > > www.all-railroads.com/ > > Dave F Or pick up an Varney Aerotrain cheaply at ebay - think prices should be down now with the Con Cor train around the corner. When the Con Cor Zephyr was released it became impossible to sell Nickel Plate Zephyrs... *I* bought two NPP Zephyrs at full price just before the news was out... anyway, at least they are brass and plated. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5810	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Aerotrain/ Zephyr

Hi Gerold: Agree. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5811	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Hi Don: Your are absolutely correct, but it is the "limited run" mindset that will still drive folks to plunk their Visa cards down and go further into debt to buy these trains.....and then continue to pay interest on the debt for the next 20 years. A sucker is born every minute, and I think the US is full of them, LOL It amazes me sometimes that Athearn never came out with these vintage-style trains in their RTR line which were (once upon a time), very affordable. Come to think of it, Athearn never made an E unit either -- one of the most popular diesels on the market.... Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5812	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Welcome aboard.  On that Aerotrain--I have one--8 cars total as that's all the Kemtron trucks I could find.  After several tries managed to power it with an Athearn SW-1200 drive.  "Varney" should be available from Bowser--the Kemtron truck patterns may have been lost in the PSC fire in the early 80's.  New one from Con-Cor looks nice--ought to run well based on their Zephyr.  glenn joesten. ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) My Name is Charles (Charlie, but my mother threw a fit if she heard anyone call me that), I mainly collect HO scale as for Vintage I am sure some of the stuff I have is vintage the last thing I bought was roghly 15 years ago and I used to buy anything that other Modelers decided they did not want anymore. My first Engine was a TYCO Southern Cresent Limited which I bought before I went into the Air Force In '72. I have many engines in boxes which never fhave been run on any tracks, but I do not know if any of them are old enough to be included. Like most things I do not have room for a layout, esp. not one with all of my rolling stock (roughly 1500 cars),and motive power (somewhere in teh neighborhood of 500 engines), to be used, but I always have high hopes of running into big money and starting and finishing a nice layout before I die. I happen to live I Southern Illinois. I  got started in Railroading because my Father worked on the NYC in Southern Illinois until he retired from CONRAIL, I believe in '82 he had 34 years on the line. This is a short history of my model railroading. Thanks Charlie P.S. What I really want is a Varney Aero-Train to mark in NYC. C.A.W.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Higdon" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:58:24 -0400 Hi Ray, Ok, what ever is best for you?  I know I do not know the law about copyrights.  I would  think if you wrote it and did not sell it, that you could do what you want with it.  But I am wrong about a lot of things. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models   Hi Chuck, Glad to see you're on the ready, and are willing to do another spreasdsheet. Actually, I had intended to post it to you same way as the last one. Until I upgrade, it seems to be beyond my computor's capabilities to scan and send anything of this size. This manufacturer wouldn't be nearly as "involved" or as extensive. I'd still have to do it only a couple pages at at time though, as I think it would work out best that way; I have one typewritten page on Laconia kits and two pages on Binkley kits. Not as much separation into different car types with Binkley either, since I just ran them all in their kit number (numerical) order; even though most types seem to follow in order anyway. There does seem to be a possible glich though, which was brought to my attention off-line, and that's the matter of the material being copyrighted in Dave Spanagel's magazine ("The Reporting Mark"). I don't know exactly how that works however -- I had been under the assumption that original manuscript's copyright protection was first guaranteed to the author. If it comes down to it, I could change a bit of the wording around so it would not be an exact copy as previously published, if that's what it takes. I'll wait to see what transpires in off-line discussion. Best, Ray _,_._,___ -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5813	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Glenn: Glenn, are you the Glenn Joesten from Seaside near Monterey, CA?? Dave Dave Freed formery at Fort Ord, CA ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5814	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

Chuck, That nose in the yard sounds like in interesting sight....... Could you please tell me more about what you remember of it? How much of the front was there? Was it lying on the cut-off rear? What [how much of it] was it and how was it lying around?? I'd like to have a better image in my mind's eye......... It sounds like something interesting to model. Related to that; we used to have a very large junkyard along one of our tracks; where the outside of the entire perimeter fence was lined with old RR car freight doors for as far as you could see...... They've since cleaned the place up. But what an odd thing it was to see for many years. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 20, 2008, at 1:22 PM, trainliker wrote: > Watch out for falling in the "there's a prototype for everything" > trap. > > There was a big scrapyard outside Chicago not to far from the EMD > plant. It was called "Pilot Bros." or something (I think I have the > spelling wrong.) In the scrapyard was a cut off nose of an F unit > just like somebody had planted it on a model railroad. It looked > very "unrealistic" except for the fact it was real. I've got slide of > it somewhere. It's too much bother to find it, but if I ever run > across it, maybe I'll post it. > > Chuck Kinzer > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: >> >> I think for years ( actually, decades but there were twenty years >> without Railroads between) about creating a really realistic > scrapyard. >> Not the sort regularly featured in model rr magazines, with old > clock >> gears, cut off F7 cabs and orphan steam loco drivers - one that > would >> look like the real thing , with car wrecks in the process of >> dismantling, and all sorts of scale machinery .... in a earlier > life I >> have spent years scrounging those places so I should be able to do >> this correctly. >> >> Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5815	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Yes.  I retired from Monterey County Environmental Health the en d of 2001 and retreated to the family place near Yreka.  I have built a 1500 sq ft building  and am trying to build an On3 layout in it.   I'm between exits 770 and 773 from Interstate 5.  glenn476@...    530-340-2537  ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Glenn: Glenn, are you the Glenn Joesten from Seaside near Monterey, CA?? Dave Dave Freed formery at Fort Ord, CA ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5816	From: Tom	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

Hi guys, question for you. I just picked this up on ebay,180224179031, a Penn Line 4-6-0 G5. Has anyone ever seen one?? I have what I thought were all the Penn Line engines they made. I even checked HO seeker and he has no info on a Penn Line G5. Is it legit? Has anyone ever seen one? Thanks in advance for the info. Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5817	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Can't think of the link offhand, but there's a fellow on eBay that's selling white metal copies of the Kemtron sideframes, (of which I have several, and will be getting more), as well as complete resin cast floors with coupler pockets that will take Kadee 5's (which I don't have a desire to try).   Do a search on Varney, he comes up every month or two.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Welcome aboard.  On that Aerotrain--I have one--8 cars total as that's all the Kemtron trucks I could find.  After several tries managed to power it with an Athearn SW-1200 drive.  "Varney" should be available from Bowser--the Kemtron truck patterns may have been lost in the PSC fire in the early 80's.  New one from Con-Cor looks nice--ought to run well based on their Zephyr.  glenn joesten. ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) My Name is Charles (Charlie, but my mother threw a fit if she heard anyone call me that), I mainly collect HO scale as for Vintage I am sure some of the stuff I have is vintage the last thing I bought was roghly 15 years ago and I used to buy anything that other Modelers decided they did not want anymore. My first Engine was a TYCO Southern Cresent Limited which I bought before I went into the Air Force In '72. I have many engines in boxes which never fhave been run on any tracks, but I do not know if any of them are old enough to be included. Like most things I do not have room for a layout, esp. not one with all of my rolling stock (roughly 1500 cars),and motive power (somewhere in teh neighborhood of 500 engines), to be used, but I always have high hopes of running into big money and starting and finishing a nice layout before I die. I happen to live I Southern Illinois. I  got started in Railroading because my Father worked on the NYC in Southern Illinois until he retired from CONRAIL, I believe in '82 he had 34 years on the line. This is a short history of my model railroading. Thanks Charlie P.S. What I really want is a Varney Aero-Train to mark in NYC. C.A.W.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Higdon" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:58:24 -0400 Hi Ray, Ok, what ever is best for you?  I know I do not know the law about copyrights.  I would  think if you wrote it and did not sell it, that you could do what you want with it.  But I am wrong about a lot of things. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models   Hi Chuck, Glad to see you're on the ready, and are willing to do another spreasdsheet. Actually, I had intended to post it to you same way as the last one. Until I upgrade, it seems to be beyond my computor's capabilities to scan and send anything of this size. This manufacturer wouldn't be nearly as "involved" or as extensive. I'd still have to do it only a couple pages at at time though, as I think it would work out best that way; I have one typewritten page on Laconia kits and two pages on Binkley kits. Not as much separation into different car types with Binkley either, since I just ran them all in their kit number (numerical) order; even though most types seem to follow in order anyway. There does seem to be a possible glich though, which was brought to my attention off-line, and that's the matter of the material being copyrighted in Dave Spanagel's magazine ("The Reporting Mark"). I don't know exactly how that works however -- I had been under the assumption that original manuscript's copyright protection was first guaranteed to the author. If it comes down to it, I could change a bit of the wording around so it would not be an exact copy as previously published, if that's what it takes. I'll wait to see what transpires in off-line discussion. Best, Ray _,_._,___ -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5818	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:32 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line G-5 4-6-0 > Hi guys, question for you. I just picked this up on ebay,180224179031, > a Penn Line 4-6-0 G5. Has anyone ever seen one?? I have what I > thought were all the Penn Line engines they made. I even checked HO > seeker and he has no info on a Penn Line G5. Is it legit? Has anyone > ever seen one? Thanks in advance for the info. Tom I'll lay even money it was actually made by Bowser. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5819	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Pennline G5 ?

Tom my boy , you sir are indeed blessed . They did make a G5 Pennsy 10 wheeler ! Very chunky little brute indeed . Bowser still makes it ? An Larry at HOseeker may not have the diagrams , but if you go to Bowser you can download one ! Congrats , nice purchase ! OK OK ? OK ! Henry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5820	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

I think so--thanks to the Pennsy's standardization, there were three (possibly four) locos using the common boiler--E-6 4-4-2, G-5 4-6-0, and H-8, 9, 10 2-8-0. {rnn Line made all three--the C-1 0-8-0 might also have used the same boiler, I'm not that much of a PRR fan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 8:32 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line G-5 4-6-0 > Hi guys, question for you. I just picked this up on ebay,180224179031, > a Penn Line 4-6-0 G5. Has anyone ever seen one?? I have what I > thought were all the Penn Line engines they made. I even checked HO > seeker and he has no info on a Penn Line G5. Is it legit? Has anyone > ever seen one? Thanks in advance for the info. Tom > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5821	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

I run a 4-40 die on the drawbar pins and use a nut to help keep the cars together.  Sort of like handling a snake, or a string of sausages.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Can't think of the link offhand, but there's a fellow on eBay that's selling white metal copies of the Kemtron sideframes, (of which I have several, and will be getting more), as well as complete resin cast floors with coupler pockets that will take Kadee 5's (which I don't have a desire to try).   Do a search on Varney, he comes up every month or two.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Welcome aboard.  On that Aerotrain--I have one--8 cars total as that's all the Kemtron trucks I could find.  After several tries managed to power it with an Athearn SW-1200 drive.  "Varney" should be available from Bowser--the Kemtron truck patterns may have been lost in the PSC fire in the early 80's.  New one from Con-Cor looks nice--ought to run well based on their Zephyr.  glenn joesten. ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) My Name is Charles (Charlie, but my mother threw a fit if she heard anyone call me that), I mainly collect HO scale as for Vintage I am sure some of the stuff I have is vintage the last thing I bought was roghly 15 years ago and I used to buy anything that other Modelers decided they did not want anymore. My first Engine was a TYCO Southern Cresent Limited which I bought before I went into the Air Force In '72. I have many engines in boxes which never fhave been run on any tracks, but I do not know if any of them are old enough to be included. Like most things I do not have room for a layout, esp. not one with all of my rolling stock (roughly 1500 cars),and motive power (somewhere in teh neighborhood of 500 engines), to be used, but I always have high hopes of running into big money and starting and finishing a nice layout before I die. I happen to live I Southern Illinois. I  got started in Railroading because my Father worked on the NYC in Southern Illinois until he retired from CONRAIL, I believe in '82 he had 34 years on the line. This is a short history of my model railroading. Thanks Charlie P.S. What I really want is a Varney Aero-Train to mark in NYC. C.A.W.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Higdon" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:58:24 -0400 Hi Ray, Ok, what ever is best for you?  I know I do not know the law about copyrights.  I would  think if you wrote it and did not sell it, that you could do what you want with it.  But I am wrong about a lot of things. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Binkley Models   Hi Chuck, Glad to see you're on the ready, and are willing to do another spreasdsheet. Actually, I had intended to post it to you same way as the last one. Until I upgrade, it seems to be beyond my computor's capabilities to scan and send anything of this size. This manufacturer wouldn't be nearly as "involved" or as extensive. I'd still have to do it only a couple pages at at time though, as I think it would work out best that way; I have one typewritten page on Laconia kits and two pages on Binkley kits. Not as much separation into different car types with Binkley either, since I just ran them all in their kit number (numerical) order; even though most types seem to follow in order anyway. There does seem to be a possible glich though, which was brought to my attention off-line, and that's the matter of the material being copyrighted in Dave Spanagel's magazine ("The Reporting Mark"). I don't know exactly how that works however -- I had been under the assumption that original manuscript's copyright protection was first guaranteed to the author. If it comes down to it, I could change a bit of the wording around so it would not be an exact copy as previously published, if that's what it takes. I'll wait to see what transpires in off-line discussion. Best, Ray _,_._,___ -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5822	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

I'm not sure of the builder--one way to tell might be the frame--if brass built up it would definitely be Bowser--if die-cast Penn Line or early Bowser. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line G-5 4-6-0 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5823	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/21/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?

Saginaw (A part of what is now GM's Saginaw Steering Gear division) made the trio in O Scale just prior to WWII. In fact, the G-5 was the third, and they were only allowed to package and sell about 100 sets of castings-of which I have one. Custom Builder Bill Lenoir was the Model RR Dept at Saginaw. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Hultgren" <long95209@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 9:25 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Pennline G5 ? > Tom my boy , you sir are indeed blessed . They did make a G5 Pennsy 10 > wheeler ! Very chunky little brute indeed . Bowser still makes it ? An > Larry at HOseeker may not have the diagrams , but if you go to Bowser > you can download one ! Congrats , nice purchase ! OK OK ? OK ! Henry > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5824	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

It was the whole nose cut off somewhere in back of the entry doors as I recall.  It was sitting in a normal position, not on its back or side.  As I recall, it was tilted a little with much other junk around it.   I've seen in one of the model magazines where somebody has a real F unit nose in their basement (somehow).  Maybe somebody at the junkyard had, or thought they might get, an opportunity to sell it.  It didn't look like it was a situation where they were in the process of scrapping it and they just hadn't got to it yet.  It looked deliberately planted in with other junk.  Very "model railroady" looking.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: adding you in your layout... Chuck, That nose in the yard sounds like in interesting sight....... Could you please tell me more about what you remember of it? How much of the front was there? Was it lying on the cut-off rear? What [how much of it] was it and how was it lying around?? I'd like to have a better image in my mind's eye......... It sounds like something interesting to model. Related to that; we used to have a very large junkyard along one of our tracks; where the outside of the entire perimeter fence was lined with old RR car freight doors for as far as you could see...... They've since cleaned the place up. But what an odd thing it was to see for many years. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 20, 2008, at 1:22 PM, trainliker wrote: > Watch out for falling in the "there's a prototype for everything" > trap. > > There was a big scrapyard outside Chicago not to far from the EMD > plant. It was called "Pilot Bros." or something (I think I have the > spelling wrong.) In the scrapyard was a cut off nose of an F unit > just like somebody had planted it on a model railroad. It looked > very "unrealistic" except for the fact it was real. I've got slide of > it somewhere. It's too much bother to find it, but if I ever run > across it, maybe I'll post it. > > Chuck Kinzer > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: >> >> I think for years ( actually, decades but there were twenty years >> without Railroads between) about creating a really realistic > scrapyard. >> Not the sort regularly featured in model rr magazines, with old > clock >> gears, cut off F7 cabs and orphan steam loco drivers - one that > would >> look like the real thing , with car wrecks in the process of >> dismantling, and all sorts of scale machinery .... in a earlier > life I >> have spent years scrounging those places so I should be able to do >> this correctly. >> >> Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5825	From: Tom	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?

Thanks Henry for the info. I am very excited to get the thing. I have never seen one anywhere before. I will strip the thing and put it in its proper pennsy colors though. Tom --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Hultgren" <long95209@...> wrote: > > Tom my boy , you sir are indeed blessed . They did make a G5 Pennsy 10 > wheeler ! Very chunky little brute indeed . Bowser still makes it ? An > Larry at HOseeker may not have the diagrams , but if you go to Bowser > you can download one ! Congrats , nice purchase ! OK OK ? OK ! Henry >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5826	From: AL	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: watermellon cars

Have created an Album with pictures of the three Watermelon cars, and the Golden Series stock car Gerold .................. Thank sfor posting the photos. Dug mine out and it's the Georgia car, looks like your photo. has body mounted couplers, weathering looks the same. Love the stock car, I wasn't even aware they made other cars in the series, now I'll have to hunt one ( or more :-) up for the collection ( ever growing - I got supplies for more shelving here, will attempt to get some on the walls today, wish me luck, lol ). will get a photo of the car when I can ( gotta get some batteries for my antigue Olympus digital I have..... ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5827	From: erieberk	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?

Tom, Since you have all the other Penn Line PRR engines, to break things up a bit, you might want to consider lettering your G5 for the Pennsy's subsidiary, the Long Island Railroad where they were used extensively. Just a thought for a change of pace. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: > > Thanks Henry for the info. I am very excited to get the thing. I have > never seen one anywhere before. I will strip the thing and put it in > its proper pennsy colors though. Tom > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Hultgren" <long95209@> > wrote: > > > > Tom my boy , you sir are indeed blessed . They did make a G5 Pennsy 10 > > wheeler ! Very chunky little brute indeed . Bowser still makes it ? An > > Larry at HOseeker may not have the diagrams , but if you go to Bowser > > you can download one ! Congrats , nice purchase ! OK OK ? OK ! Henry > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5828	From: Tom	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?

Right on Ray, that may be a good idea. Thanks,Tom--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Tom, Since you have all the other Penn Line PRR engines, to break > things up a bit, you might want to consider lettering your G5 for the > Pennsy's subsidiary, the Long Island Railroad where they were used > extensively. Just a thought for a change of pace. Ray > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@> wrote: > > > > Thanks Henry for the info. I am very excited to get the thing. I > have > > never seen one anywhere before. I will strip the thing and put it > in > > its proper pennsy colors though. Tom > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Hultgren" <long95209@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Tom my boy , you sir are indeed blessed . They did make a G5 > Pennsy 10 > > > wheeler ! Very chunky little brute indeed . Bowser still makes > it ? An > > > Larry at HOseeker may not have the diagrams , but if you go to > Bowser > > > you can download one ! Congrats , nice purchase ! OK OK ? OK ! > Henry > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5829	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

Don: A G-5 was also made by Lima in HO in the early 70s. I have one. As I recall, I picked it up new at one of the old Lionel PlayWorld stores when they were still in business. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5830	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Hi Glenn: Thanks for the reply. I will contact you off list shortly. Once upon a time you painted 2 E-7s for me for the Florida East Coast Railway when I was stationed at Fort Ord. Do you remember? You lived in Marina, in a mobile home and were also working on a MILW Bi-Polar at the time, which I believe was a brass model. Talk more later, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5831	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Dave F Thanks will go and see about getting one, again, thank. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:22:57 EDT HI Charlie: JMC/Concor is getting ready to release a newly tooled and updated Aerotrain. Contact them or your local hobby shop and see if you can get one ordered, since these will be short-run production items. Go to this site to view the Aerotrain in detail: www.all-railroads.com/ Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5832	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

OUCH!!! Will not be getting one of those misfits, Thanks Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:41:09 -0600 $ 429.98 for a loco and 3 cars, two additional 3 car sets at $ 219.98 each set, made in China, they probably won't stay on the track any better than any other Chinese passenger car (a common lament on all the other HO lists), and when the locomotive dies it won't be repairable, no parts, and my Bowser version of the old Varney one that I paid a hundred bucks for (still the going rate), will still be running.  That's why we love Vintage here.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) HI Charlie: JMC/Concor is getting ready to release a newly tooled and updated Aerotrain. Contact them or your local hobby shop and see if you can get one ordered, since these will be short-run production items. Go to this site to view the Aerotrain in detail: www.all-railroads.com/ Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5833	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Did they ever make a Baby face F-unit? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:15:55 EDT Hi Don: Your are absolutely correct, but it is the "limited run" mindset that will still drive folks to plunk their Visa cards down and go further into debt to buy these trains.....and then continue to pay interest on the debt for the next 20 years. A sucker is born every minute, and I think the US is full of them, LOL It amazes me sometimes that Athearn never came out with these vintage-style trains in their RTR line which were (once upon a time), very affordable. Come to think of it, Athearn never made an E unit either -- one of the most popular diesels on the market.... Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5834	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

Don, Dave and group. nless my memory has developed some bad sectors, there was at a point in time, two manufacturers marketing die cast steam locomotives of Pennsylvania RR prototypes. Most obviously Penn Line would be one and I am of the belief that Bowser would be the other. Or maybe MDC? One had the better superstructure casting and the best chassis was, of course, sold by the other. I am speaking in terms of appearance, not performance regarding the chassis. Had I been as interested in Pennsy steam then as I am now, I would have purchased the shell and drive separately and (somehow) combined the two to get the best of both worlds. As I recall, the best drive manufacturer's boiler casting was lacking in bulkiness. The diameter was too small for, say, a K4. The thing about Pennsy steam that gained my attention was the "chunkiness" of their steamers particularly that of the later classes built just before the "Super power steam" era. It's funny, or not, but it seems hard to capture that look. This was probably a result of using one casting for several classes of locomotive. I've seen it obtained very well in some (not all) O scale offerings but less so in smaller scales. Maybe it's more in the relationship with the front end of the smoke box with the cylinders and/or pilot beam than solely the boiler diameter. I can't know. However, one of those 50's – 60's offerings captured it better than the other. The better chassis had the edge in valve gear, driver diameter and (possibly) driver wheelbase. There may have been a better (of the two) trailer truck also. I was not a fan of Pennsy steam in my younger years. Something about the high headlights and those Belpare fireboxes made them look weird in the eyes of a young lad. Then there was an article in TRAINS magazine on the Long Island's G5's in commuter service that gave me a whole new respect for Pennsylvania steam in general and the G5's in particular. With their large diameter boiler, short overall length and modern appliances (for a ten wheeler) they had a purposeful look that made me feel this was most powerful beast that could be built for the amount of space it took up. More like a NFL lineman than, say, an Olympic sprinter. It could do the job assigned to it, and do it very well. John Hagen. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > Don: > > A G-5 was also made by Lima in HO in the early 70s. I have one. As I > recall, I picked it up new at one of the old Lionel PlayWorld stores when > they were still in business. > > Dave F > > > > ************** > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL > Home. > > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15? ncid=aolhom00030000000001) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5835	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Hi Charlie: The "Baby Face" was not the F unit. Athearn did make a lot of those in both their old Globe, later Athearn RTR Blue Box line, and later in their current Genises line. Again, "F unit" and "Baby Face" are not synonomous (although a lot folks think they are). They are 2 different locomotives. The true, original "Baby Face" diesel was actually a Baldwin product, more along the lines of the early Centipede diesels (PRR, SAL) or the CNJ Road Class diesel DC-30 (Series 2000-2002, (1946);  2003-2006 (1948). The CNJ engines were 2000 hp Commuter Locos which featured a double-cab at each end. Most of these locos were withdrawn from service by 1957. (See Sept 1965 Railroad Model Craftsman mag for good pictures and line drawings). Hope this helps, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5836	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

There was some article, I think it was in a "Railroad Modeler" magazine that showed about the same scene! A F unit nose amid a pile of junk in a junkyard. If I find it I'll get it online. As to the F unit nose in the basement, I remember seeing that one as well! Cordially, Gerry D --- ckinzer@... wrote: > It was the whole nose cut off somewhere in back of > the entry doors as I recall. It was sitting in a > normal position, not on its back or side. As I > recall, it was tilted a little with much other junk > around it. > > I've seen in one of the model magazines where > somebody has a real F unit nose in their basement > (somehow). Maybe somebody at the junkyard had, or > thought they might get, an opportunity to sell it. > It didn't look like it was a situation where they > were in the process of scrapping it and they just > hadn't got to it yet. It looked deliberately > planted in with other junk. Very "model railroady" > looking. > > Chuck Kinzer > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Bauers > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:58 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: adding you in your > layout... > > > Chuck, > > That nose in the yard sounds like in interesting > sight....... > > Could you please tell me more about what you > remember of it? > > How much of the front was there? Was it lying on > the cut-off rear? > > What [how much of it] was it and how was it lying > around?? > > I'd like to have a better image in my mind's > eye......... It sounds > like something interesting to model. > > Related to that; we used to have a very large > junkyard along one of > our tracks; where the outside of the entire > perimeter fence was lined > with old RR car freight doors for as far as you > could see...... > They've since cleaned the place up. But what an > odd thing it was to > see for many years. > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > On Mar 20, 2008, at 1:22 PM, trainliker wrote: > > > Watch out for falling in the "there's a > prototype for everything" > > trap. > > > > There was a big scrapyard outside Chicago not to > far from the EMD > > plant. It was called "Pilot Bros." or something > (I think I have the > > spelling wrong.) In the scrapyard was a cut off > nose of an F unit > > just like somebody had planted it on a model > railroad. It looked > > very "unrealistic" except for the fact it was > real. I've got slide of > > it somewhere. It's too much bother to find it, > but if I ever run > > across it, maybe I'll post it. > > > > Chuck Kinzer > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl > <corv8@...> wrote: > >> > >> I think for years ( actually, decades but there > were twenty years > >> without Railroads between) about creating a > really realistic > > scrapyard. > >> Not the sort regularly featured in model rr > magazines, with old > > clock > >> gears, cut off F7 cabs and orphan steam loco > drivers - one that > > would > >> look like the real thing , with car wrecks in > the process of > >> dismantling, and all sorts of scale machinery > .... in a earlier > > life I > >> have spent years scrounging those places so I > should be able to do > >> this correctly. > >> > >> Gerold > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5837	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Dave Ok I do stand corrected, I meant coverd wagon style of locomotive, with a long slopedd face and yes I do recall teh ones you spoke of but I thought they also made a smaller unit maybe from another Manufacturer on the real lines. Thanks Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:13:38 EDT Hi Charlie: The "Baby Face" was not the F unit. Athearn did make a lot of those in both their old Globe, later Athearn RTR Blue Box line, and later in their current Genises line. Again, "F unit" and "Baby Face" are not synonomous (although a lot folks think they are). They are 2 different locomotives. The true, original "Baby Face" diesel was actually a Baldwin product, more along the lines of the early Centipede diesels (PRR, SAL) or the CNJ Road Class diesel DC-30 (Series 2000-2002, (1946);  2003-2006 (1948). The CNJ engines were 2000 hp Commuter Locos which featured a double-cab at each end. Most of these locos were withdrawn from service by 1957. (See Sept 1965 Railroad Model Craftsman mag for good pictures and line drawings). Hope this helps, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5838	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Charles and Fred, What is scary about "vintage" HO is that most of the stuff is what I dreamed of buying back in the late 50s and early 60s when I was first modeling is what this list is all about. It "seems like only yesterday." Some of my "vintage stuff" are my first two locomotives -- a Penn Line Midget Switcher and a GHC 4-4-2 C&NW (but lettered B&O) die cast Atlantic. Still have them both (and about 20 other vintage locos) all of which seem pretty "new" to me since they were made in the 50s. The real vintage HO still seems like the brass Mantua locos, the bronze boilered Varney and Bowser kits, the Central Lines passenger cars and all that. I love this list and all the postings. Charles, I hope you stay with us and enjoy the multiple trips down memory lane. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote: > > Welcome, Charles(in case your Mom is watching) ! > > We have a really unique and rather nice group here - all about "vintage" HO. Some of the members(such as myself) are "vintage," too! > > Charles Windes <cwindes@...> wrote: > My Name is Charles (Charlie, but my mother threw a fit if she heard anyone call me that), I mainly collect HO scale as for Vintage I am sure some of the stuff I have is vintage the last thing I bought was roghly 15 years ago and I used to buy anything that other Modelers decided they did not want anymore. My first Engine was a TYCO Southern Cresent Limited which I bought before I went into the Air Force In '72. I have many engines in boxes which never fhave been run on any tracks, but I do not know if any of them are old enough to be included. Like most things I do not have room for a layout, esp. not one with all of my rolling stock (roughly 1500 cars),and motive power (somewhere in teh neighborhood of 500 engines), to be used, but I always have high hopes of running into big money and starting and finishing a nice layout before I die. I happen to live I Southern Illinois. I got started in Railroading because my Father worked on the NYC in Southern Illinois > until he retired from CONRAIL, I believe in '82 he had 34 years on the line. This is a short history of my model railroading. > Thanks > Charlie > P.S. What I really want is a Varney Aero-Train to mark in NYC. > C.A.W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5839	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Hi Charlie: The "covered wagon" on the other hand is generally the name given to any type of diesel loco which had its entire cowl "covered" by the car body, in constrast to hood units, switch engines, and anything that wasn't really streamlined as such to match passenger trains. E and F units, A and B units, FAs, FBs, PAs, PBs, Baldwin locos (mentioned in the previous reply) all fit the "covered wagon" concept, although it is mostly referenced in EMD locos more than most others. I've heard prototype railroaders use the term more than model railroaders in years past. Most proto guys didn't know one model from another, so in their parlance, "covered wagons", "GMs", or "GEs" were terms they used. In general, they called diesels by a more generic name simply "units".... The newer Amtrak engines could "probably' fit in this class too, since they are fully enclosed engines within the car body. Best described as the "wagon recovered" I think, would include SDP40Fs, P30CH, AMD103s, P-42, F59, F40PHs, F-45s, and FP-45s to suggest a few. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5840	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

WK2SHR@... wrote: > Don: > > A G-5 was also made by Lima in HO in the early 70s. I have one. As I > recall, I picked it up new at one of the old Lionel PlayWorld stores when > they were still in business. > > Dave F Dave, are you sure you are talking about a LIMA model? Liliput of Austria first made a fake G4 which in reality was a Prussian P8 - it was sold by Varney ( ad in RMC Dec 1969) , and later a rather good looking G5 which utilized most of the P8 drive . The P5 was sold by Life-Like , ad appeared in RMC Nov 1971. Both were fine models in their time , a few made it to Austrian hobbyshops - but they all suffered from metal deterioriation, most wheel centers gro until the tires break, even motor frames desintegrate. Have both versions, may post pics and scans of the respective ads if there is interest. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5841	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

As best as I can recall....... Lo, many years ago....... This was made by Bowser, using one of their similar boilers. This is also something I remember reading in one of their catalogs as discontinued because of the only-close boiler. They never decided to make the proper boiler for the G5, due to the costs of the new dies against their projected sales of the more accurate G5. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 21, 2008, at 10:32 PM, Tom wrote: > Hi guys, question for you. I just picked this up on ebay, > 180224179031, > a Penn Line 4-6-0 G5. Has anyone ever seen one?? I have what I > thought were all the Penn Line engines they made. I even checked HO > seeker and he has no info on a Penn Line G5. Is it legit? Has anyone > ever seen one? Thanks in advance for the info. Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5842	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Fw: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 1:58 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0 Don, Dave and group. nless my memory has developed some bad sectors, there was at a point in time, two manufacturers marketing die cast steam locomotives of Pennsylvania RR prototypes. Most obviously Penn Line would be one and I am of the belief that Bowser would be the other. Or maybe MDC? One had the better superstructure casting and the best chassis was, of course, sold by the other. I am speaking in terms of appearance, not performance regarding the chassis. Had I been as interested in Pennsy steam then as I am now, I would have purchased the shell and drive separately and (somehow) combined the two to get the best of both worlds. My recollections, not always accurate, are that Penn Line's locomotives shared a common boiler on several models. One of these was the 2-10-0 for which it was too small, Cary made a replacement boiler of more proper dimensions which was sold as a after market replacement. Later Bowser aquired both Penn Line steam and Cary. For some reason Bowser discontinued the cast frame and began fabricating brass frames, which I believe they still use. Going from memory, a sometimes risky undertaking, the G-5 was strictly a Bowser product. On the subject of Penn Line did anyone pick up the GG1 after Varney quit manufacturing? Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5843	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Pennline G5 ?

Now I see it! So much for my memories on this........ Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 21, 2008, at 11:25 PM, Henry Hultgren wrote: > Tom my boy , you sir are indeed blessed . They did make a G5 Pennsy 10 > wheeler ! Very chunky little brute indeed . Bowser still makes it ? An > Larry at HOseeker may not have the diagrams , but if you go to Bowser > you can download one ! Congrats , nice purchase ! OK OK ? OK ! Henry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5844	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line G-5 4-6-0

Hi Gerold: My G-5 says "Lima" on the bottom in all capital letters. It has a plastic frame/chassis, still runs and is in good shape, except for some of the boiler tubes which have cracked here and there (probably from handling over the years. These were fine (thin) plastic thingys just above the drivers. It came with rubber traction tires, which I replaced long ago with rubber dental brace bands. Again, still runs good in spite of old age, although I rarely ever use it. It is lettered for Pennsylvania, but I had planned to "some day" reletter it for the Long Island RR who was a big user of old hand-me-down PRR equipment...(like G-5s, DD-1s and B60b baggage cars). Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5845	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Technically, the new units are not "Covered Wagons". they are "cowl units".  The difference is that the new units are built on a complete self supporting frame, and the "cowl" is just sheet metal.  In a true "covered wagon", the body is actually part of the supporting structure, a "truss bridge" riding on the two trucks.  This is most evident on early units like the F-3's with "chicken wire" grills, where you can actually see part of the supporting structure through the grills.  The body side panels then are fastened to the framework.    Another interesting tidbit I was suprised to learn, on some of the early E and F units, the body panels themselves weren't even steel.  They were PLYWOOD!.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Hi Charlie: The "covered wagon" on the other hand is generally the name given to any type of diesel loco which had its entire cowl "covered" by the car body, in constrast to hood units, switch engines, and anything that wasn't really streamlined as such to match passenger trains. E and F units, A and B units, FAs, FBs, PAs, PBs, Baldwin locos (mentioned in the previous reply) all fit the "covered wagon" concept, although it is mostly referenced in EMD locos more than most others. I've heard prototype railroaders use the term more than model railroaders in years past. Most proto guys didn't know one model from another, so in their parlance, "covered wagons", "GMs", or "GEs" were terms they used. In general, they called diesels by a more generic name simply "units".... The newer Amtrak engines could "probably' fit in this class too, since they are fully enclosed engines within the car body. Best described as the "wagon recovered" I think, would include SDP40Fs, P30CH, AMD103s, P-42, F59, F40PHs, F-45s, and FP-45s to suggest a few. Dave F

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5846	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

That was a while ago--perhaps a while and a half--I retired over 6 years ago--and Fort Odd was long shut down and converted to CSU Monterey Bay--some core area retained and handed over to the Navy to administer including the clubs and commissary. gj glenn476@... ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Hi Glenn: Thanks for the reply. I will contact you off list shortly. Once upon a time you painted 2 E-7s for me for the Florida East Coast Railway when I was stationed at Fort Ord. Do you remember? You lived in Marina, in a mobile home and were also working on a MILW Bi-Polar at the time, which I believe was a brass model. Talk more later, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5847	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Don, You disappoint me. You seem to have a fairly large amount of automobilia lasered on your mental hard drive. Back in the 30's when Chrysler introduced the first all steel auto bodies, which of the then numerous auto manufacturers used to demonstrate how wood was basic to the construction of strong bodies by placing a wood dowel inside a very thin walled steel tube; ergo making it resistant to bending. Was it A. Studebaker - drawing on their Conestoga wagon history B. Ford - due to Henry's blind stubbornness that kept mechanical brakes on his cars C. General Motors - the same company that went into the diesel locomotive business building such things as E, F, and GP units. D. Nash - because they wanted to buy Kelvinator and use railroad type wooden doors on their refrigerators. The answer will be posted in next week's installment. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > >> > Another interesting tidbit I was suprised to learn, on some of the early E and F units, the body panels themselves weren't even steel. They were PLYWOOD!. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5848	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

Many thanks for the details........ You'd expect to see this on front of a hobbyshop, in a museum, or as an entrance for someones backyard layout building............ Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 22, 2008, at 9:41 AM, <ckinzer@...> <ckinzer@...> wrote: It was the whole nose cut off somewhere in back of the entry doors as I recall.  It was sitting in a normal position, not on its back or side.  As I recall, it was tilted a little with much other junk around it.   I've seen in one of the model magazines where somebody has a real F unit nose in their basement (somehow).  Maybe somebody at the junkyard had, or thought they might get, an opportunity to sell it.  It didn't look like it was a situation where they were in the process of scrapping it and they just hadn't got to it yet.  It looked deliberately planted in with other junk.  Very "model railroady" looking.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: adding you in your layout... Chuck, That nose in the yard sounds like in interesting sight....... Could you please tell me more about what you remember of it? How much of the front was there? Was it lying on the cut-off rear? What [how much of it] was it and how was it lying around?? I'd like to have a better image in my mind's eye......... It sounds like something interesting to model. Related to that; we used to have a very large junkyard along one of our tracks; where the outside of the entire perimeter fence was lined with old RR car freight doors for as far as you could see...... They've since cleaned the place up. But what an odd thing it was to see for many years. On Mar 20, 2008, at 1:22 PM, trainliker wrote: > Watch out for falling in the "there's a prototype for everything" > trap. > > There was a big scrapyard outside Chicago not to far from the EMD > plant. It was called "Pilot Bros." or something (I think I have the > spelling wrong.) In the scrapyard was a cut off nose of an F unit > just like somebody had planted it on a model railroad. It looked > very "unrealistic" except for the fact it was real.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5849	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 6:44 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Introduction (Vintage HO) > Don, > > You disappoint me. You seem to have a fairly large amount of > automobilia lasered on your mental hard drive. Back in the 30's when > Chrysler introduced the first all steel auto bodies, which of the then > numerous auto manufacturers used to demonstrate how wood was basic to > the construction of strong bodies by placing a wood dowel inside a very > thin walled steel tube; ergo making it resistant to bending. > > Was it > A. Studebaker - drawing on their Conestoga wagon history > B. Ford - due to Henry's blind stubbornness that kept mechanical brakes > on his cars > C. General Motors - the same company that went into the diesel > locomotive business building such things as E, F, and GP units. > D. Nash - because they wanted to buy Kelvinator and use railroad type > wooden doors on their refrigerators. > > The answer will be posted in next week's installment. > > John Hagen Knowing you, I'm going to say "E". Oshkosh Truck. <G>. If I had to guess, I'm going to say the obvious answer is C, GM. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5850	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Actually it would more likely to be "F" FWD truck. But yes, it is GM so using plywood for the side panels of E & F units shouldn't be all that suprising. That being said, it's news to me too. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > >> > Knowing you, I'm going to say "E". Oshkosh Truck. <G>. > > If I had to guess, I'm going to say the obvious answer is C, GM. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5851	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

I don't recall  -ever- seeing a mass-market version of those. But I long ago  recognised that it looked like you only have  to lower the nose on an EMD F or E to have a nose that is very, very close. Cab windows and related would be  a  needed re-work item, But ... still. it looks like the  nose contours are very similar........ Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 22, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Charles Windes wrote: Did they ever make a Baby face F-unit? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:15:55 EDT Hi Don: Your are absolutely correct, but it is the "limited run" mindset that will still drive folks to plunk their Visa cards down and go further into debt to buy these trains.....and then continue to pay interest on the debt for the next 20 years. A sucker is born every minute, and I think the  US is full of them, LOL It amazes me sometimes that Athearn never came out with these vintage-style trains in their RTR line which were (once upon a time), very affordable. Come to think of it, Athearn never made an E unit either -- one of the most popular diesels on the market....

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5852	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Those short ones you recall could be the pre-war Alco Black Maria testbeds that were stopped by the War Production Boards in favor of the  EMD F's  during  WW-II. Those Alco units were re-born as the Alco FA/FB line of freight diesels -after- WW-II restrictions were lifted. The Black Maria's were just like  freight locomotive length DL-109's  with the three piece front windows. Baldwin also had a Baby-faced  freight diesel for a very few years that re-emerged as the Shark-nosed line of freight-diesels, the RF-14/15's [?} that Mantua made lots of models of....... Possibly with the same WW-II interruption of production and later re-design. I think the Baldwin Baby-faces were two-piece front windows, with no three-piece fronts........ I think that was the case. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 22, 2008, at 2:38 PM, Charles Windes wrote: Dave Ok I do stand corrected, I meant coverd wagon style of locomotive, with a long slopedd face and yes I do recall teh ones you spoke of but I thought they also made a smaller unit maybe from another Manufacturer on the real lines. Thanks Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:13:38 EDT Hi Charlie: The "Baby Face" was not the F unit. Athearn did make a lot of those in both their old Globe, later Athearn RTR Blue Box line, and later in their current Genises line. Again, "F unit" and "Baby Face" are not synonomous (although a lot folks think they are). They are 2 different locomotives. The true, original "Baby Face" diesel was actually a Baldwin product, more along the lines of the early Centipede diesels (PRR, SAL) or  the CNJ Road Class diesel DC-30 (Series 2000-2002, (1946);  2003-2006 (1948). The CNJ engines were 2000 hp Commuter Locos which featured a double-cab at each end. Most of these locos were withdrawn from service by 1957. (See Sept 1965 Railroad Model Craftsman mag for good pictures and line drawings).

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5853	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Mike and Group, So far as I know, the term "Baby face" was only applied to Baldwin's early diesel road units. The cab & nose section of the car body was originally used on the "Centipedes". It seems when used on more normal style units, the cab section sat lower(?) and the roof over the cab was quite a bit lower the roof covering the mechanicals. When viewed from the front the cab with it's obviously lower roof than gave it a very "babyish" look. CNW had a baby face that looked like an early passenger unit except that it had only one 1,000 h.p. prime mover instead of the normal two. The rear section of the car body where the 2nd engine would normally be was used as baggage space, complete with a baggage door on each side. This unit was used on a milk run going from Manitowoc through Appleton, Clintonville and points northwest every evening (M - F at least) and would meet the north bound Peninsular 400 at Appleton junction. It would pass through Appleton going east about noon. I mention Appleton as that is where I used to see it. I believe it was this unit that replaced steam on that run. The normal freight version was model DR-4-4-1500 (Diesel Road, B B, 1500 h.p.). The first Sharks were also DR-4-4-1500's. When they made some upgrades and including a 1600 h.p. prime mover, it became a RF- 16. The baby face cab was also used on some early passenger units (A- 1-A, A-1-A's) and the Jersey Central double cab units. I never heard of the ALCO DL 109's referred to as baby faced and the Black Maria's were always known as, well, Black Maria's. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > > Those short ones you recall could be the pre-war Alco Black Maria > testbeds that were stopped by the War Production Boards in favor of > the EMD F's during WW-II. Those Alco units were re-born as the > Alco FA/FB line of freight diesels -after- WW-II restrictions were > lifted. > > The Black Maria's were just like freight locomotive length DL- 109's > with the three piece front windows. > > Baldwin also had a Baby-faced freight diesel for a very few years > that re-emerged as the Shark-nosed line of freight-diesels, the > RF-14/15's [?} that Mantua made lots of models of....... Possibly > with the same WW-II interruption of production and later re-design. > > I think the Baldwin Baby-faces were two-piece front windows, with no > three-piece fronts........ I think that was the case. > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5854	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

You point out a major spotting feature of the Baby-faces......... My impression of them from the usual 3/4 front view is that the cab- roof had the shallower arc of very much like the EMD F-series roof, while the just-behind machinery compartment had a much higher arch very like the passenger car arched roof-line. I have seen us newer people refer to shots of the un-identified Black Maria's as Baby-faced locomotives. I think it was well over 20 years ago that some previously unidentified Baby-faced snaps were published in RMC as unknowns and months later were identified as the first Black Maria shots to surface since the units operated in the late 30's. Those were quite the mystery engines for many years as no one seemed to have verifiable shots of the experimental units. For most people those engines were only rumors with no known photos for quite a long time......... and they ran about 70 years ago. It's not impossible for someone to stumble across the photos from the years before they were properly identified. Thus I mention both the Alco and Baldwin possibilities. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 22, 2008, at 10:10 PM, John Hagen wrote: > Mike and Group, > > So far as I know, the term "Baby face" was only applied to Baldwin's > early diesel road units. The cab & nose section of the car body was > originally used on the "Centipedes". It seems when used on more > normal style units, the cab section sat lower(?) and the roof over > the cab was quite a bit lower the roof covering the mechanicals. When > viewed from the front the cab with it's obviously lower roof than > gave it a very "babyish" look. CNW had a baby face that looked like > an early passenger unit except that it had only one 1,000 h.p. prime > mover instead of the normal two. The rear section of the car body > where the 2nd engine would normally be was used as baggage space, > complete with a baggage door on each side. This unit was used on a > milk run going from Manitowoc through Appleton, Clintonville and > points northwest every evening (M - F at least) and would meet the > north bound Peninsular 400 at Appleton junction. It would pass > through Appleton going east about noon. I mention Appleton as that is > where I used to see it. I believe it was this unit that replaced > steam on that run. > > The normal freight version was model DR-4-4-1500 (Diesel Road, B B, > 1500 h.p.). The first Sharks were also DR-4-4-1500's. When they made > some upgrades and including a 1600 h.p. prime mover, it became a RF- > 16. The baby face cab was also used on some early passenger units (A- > 1-A, A-1-A's) and the Jersey Central double cab units. > > I never heard of the ALCO DL 109's referred to as baby faced and the > Black Maria's were always known as, well, Black Maria's. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: >> >> Those short ones you recall could be the pre-war Alco Black Maria >> testbeds that were stopped by the War Production Boards in favor > of >> the EMD F's during WW-II. Those Alco units were re-born as the >> Alco FA/FB line of freight diesels -after- WW-II restrictions were >> lifted. >> >> The Black Maria's were just like freight locomotive length DL- > 109's >> with the three piece front windows. >> >> Baldwin also had a Baby-faced freight diesel for a very few years >> that re-emerged as the Shark-nosed line of freight-diesels, the >> RF-14/15's [?} that Mantua made lots of models of....... Possibly >> with the same WW-II interruption of production and later re-design. >> >> I think the Baldwin Baby-faces were two-piece front windows, with > no >> three-piece fronts........ I think that was the case. >> >> Best to ya' >> Mike Bauers >> Milwaukee Wi, USA >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5855	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

John and List: The Alco DL-109s weren't Baby Faces either. Recall that both they and the Black Maria's had a 3-piece windshield that was anything but a Baby Face. The Black Maria was essentially a stillborn freight version of what later metamorphasized into the DL-109/110 (which were dual-purpose) engines on some roads. Both date from about 1940-41. There was only one set of Black Maria's ever produced, and they were considered failures by Alco, which led to further refinements of both internal and external designs (which brought on the DL-109s). The DL-109/110 series engines weren't all that successful either, but WW II era War Production restrictions insured those engines had short life spans, and low production numbers. The follow-on locos were the Alco series PA/PBs for passenger service, and the FA-1/FA-2 series with their associated B units which proved somewhat more successful after the war years. Unfortunately, EMD got the lead during WW II, and was light years ahead of Alco in diesel loco development at wars end. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5856	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Mike and List: No, the Black Maria's weren't the same length as the DL-109s. More like the length of an EMD FT at the time, give or take, but certainly not as long as the DL-109/110s that followed. These were all Alco engines. The Black Maria's were built as a single A B A set, and rode on 4-wheel trucks. See photo of a single Black Maria A (DL-203) unit at: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/alco1500c.jpg Also, check this site for more technical descriptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_DL-203 and if you have it, the Second Diesel Spotters Guide (probably out of print by now, but likely available from Abes Books online, a secondary railroad book dealer). For side-view drawings and technical specs, go to this site for the Black Maria in both A and B units: http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataBlackM.HTML The Shark Nose diesels to which you refer were RF-16s mostly in A and B units. Passenger Sharks, ordered only by the PRR, were called BP-20s. Sharks were Baldwin products. The Shark was not an outgrowth of either the Black Maria's or the DL-109s. It was a completely new diesel which came much later and which was supposed to compete with the F units of the day. It too was a Baldwin, and not an Alco product. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5857	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Scrap Yards and Diesel Cabs in the Basement

Hi: That scrap yard was right next door to EMDs La Grange, IL plant, and it's correct name was "Pieliet Brothers". They had an exclusive contract with EMD to accept trade-ins (from EMD) for scrapping with the priviso that no EMD products were to be sold, or allowed to leave their scrap yard. The scrap yard honored that contract until they closed, and never sold anything to anyone, for fear of losing the EMD contract. The reason for EMDs strictness and control of products was partially for proprietary reasons, and also, to keep older diesels from being able to be repurchased and rebuilt, which, during the 70s, was beginning to become popular with smaller RRs, museums, secondary loco dealers, and preservation groups. As EMD used to say "one less rebuildable" when it goes to Pieliet".... Another large scrap yard was Naparano Brothers, who did a lot of locomotive scrapping on a huge scale. The EMD nose in the basement of a model railroader was in a 1970s-era edition of the mag I believe, and was purchased from a Western-US scrapyard where there were no resale rules or restrictions on selling railroad parts to anyone. I believe the F unit cab and nose that was so salvaged was from a former GN unit, and I recall reading that the buyer found at least 3 coats of paint on it when he went to prep it for painting in his train room: GN green/orange/ GN big sky blue, and BN cascade green. RRs didn't usually strip old paint off of engines before repainting; they just painted over the old paint, which was a common (economical and time saving) practice. FYI, you can order a reprint of the article from Model Railroader, since they carried the original article. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5858	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Hi Don: Points well taken. I got my information from the "Our GM Scrapbook" which details the long line of EMD diesels, and the terms "covered wagon" and "wagon recovered" as applied to the new cowl units of the day. I doubt that "covered wagon" is a term in use anymore on the RRs, and certainly not in wide use among modelers either. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5859	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Scrap Yards and Diesel Cabs in the Basement

Thanks for the additional info.   I found six slides I took in 1963 of the scrap yard and it is actually spelled "Pielet Brothers"  (Just one "i")   I'm going to do sort of photograph the slides and, tomorrow, post them for awhile in the group photo area.  But probably not forever since they aren't exactly "vintage HO".  (I have a top notch Nikon scanner for just slides, but I've never taken it out of the box and don't want to bother right now.)   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 11:01 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Scrap Yards and Diesel Cabs in the Basement Hi: That scrap yard was right next door to EMDs La Grange, IL plant, and it's correct name was "Pieliet Brothers". They had an exclusive contract with EMD to accept trade-ins (from EMD) for scrapping with the priviso that no EMD products were to be sold, or allowed to leave their scrap yard. The scrap yard honored that contract until they closed, and never sold anything to anyone, for fear of losing the EMD contract. The reason for EMDs strictness and control of products was partially for proprietary reasons, and also, to keep older diesels from being able to be repurchased and rebuilt, which, during the 70s, was beginning to become popular with smaller RRs, museums, secondary loco dealers, and preservation groups. As EMD used to say "one less rebuildable" when it goes to Pieliet".... Another large scrap yard was Naparano Brothers, who did a lot of locomotive scrapping on a huge scale. The EMD nose in the basement of a model railroader was in a 1970s-era edition of the mag I believe, and was purchased from a Western-US scrapyard where there were no resale rules or restrictions on selling railroad parts to anyone. I believe the F unit cab and nose that was so salvaged was from a former GN unit, and I recall reading that the buyer found at least 3 coats of paint on it when he went to prep it for painting in his train room: GN green/orange/ GN big sky blue, and BN cascade green. RRs didn't usually strip old paint off of engines before repainting; they just painted over the old paint, which was a common (economical and time saving) practice. FYI, you can order a reprint of the article from Model Railroader, since they carried the original article. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15? ncid=aolhom00030 000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5860	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Not to argue........... But to the newer modelers, that DL-109 looks like a baby-faced predecessor to the PA/PB series.......... After a while the modelers get to know that the Baby-face is an older Baldwin, while the Early Alco only looks like another close relation of baby-faces......... And for mutual-peace, watch out when you get questions about the Baby-Trainmaster that sure doesn't look like the cab-type body of other Babies......... Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Mar 23, 2008, at 12:22 AM, WK2SHR@... wrote: John and List: The Alco DL-109s weren't Baby Faces either. Recall that both they and the Black Maria's had a 3-piece windshield that was anything but a Baby Face. The Black Maria was essentially a stillborn freight version of what later metamorphasized into the DL-109/110 (which were dual-purpose) engines on some roads. Both date from about 1940-41. There was only one set of Black Maria's ever produced, and they were considered failures by Alco, which led to further refinements of both internal and external designs (which brought on the DL-109s). The DL-109/110 series engines weren't all that successful either, but WW II era War Production restrictions insured those engines had short life spans, and low production numbers. The follow-on locos were the Alco series PA/PBs for passenger service, and the FA-1/FA-2 series with their associated B units which proved somewhat more successful after the war years. Unfortunately, EMD got the lead during WW II, and was light years ahead of Alco in diesel loco development at wars end. Dave F

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5861	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/22/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Hi MIke: No arguement is intended here -- only trying to inform and educate based on what I know, or what references I have readily available. I am aware that a lot of the newer or younger modelers aren't aware of the nomenclatures -- or even the makers of some of the really older generations of diesels. Happens everywhere anymore. Lots of folks think that "Baby Faces" are EMD E and F units, when really they aren't. A lot of folks have never heard of dual-model numbers as with PRR (BP-series designators), or NH (DERS-series), so it comes as no surprise when folks "don't know" - and then "get it wrong". LOL. I think that is what this list is about: discuss, inform, and show and tell. Have a great one, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5862	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

You are making good points there........ Did you notice what was posted before in message 5852 in the groups message base ?? And compare the noses back to the rear of the cab door on these two units...... http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_prr5812.jpg http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/alco1500c.jpg See what I mean by similar ?? And if you look here....... and envision dropping the nose down about a couple of feet, how it could look very much like the Baby-face nosed car-body......... outside of changing the side panels as well.... http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cbq100a.jpg It seems to be if the nose is dropped to be as tall as the bottom of the cab side-windows, you're where it should be on  a Baby-face diesel. Just something that might be useful to make a model with an inexpensive F-7 or so shell.  Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Mar 23, 2008, at 12:46 AM, WK2SHR@... wrote: Mike and List: No, the Black Maria's weren't the same length as the DL-109s. More like the length of an EMD FT at the time, give or take, but certainly not as long as the DL-109/110s that followed. These were all Alco engines. The Black Maria's were built as a single A B A set, and rode on 4-wheel trucks. See photo of a single Black Maria A (DL-203) unit at: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/alco1500c.jpg Also, check this site for more technical descriptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_DL-203 and if you have it, the Second Diesel Spotters Guide (probably out of print by now, but likely available from Abes Books online, a secondary railroad book dealer). For side-view drawings and technical specs, go to this site for the Black Maria in both A and B units: http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataBlackM.HTML The Shark Nose diesels to which you refer were RF-16s mostly in A and B units. Passenger Sharks, ordered only by the PRR, were called BP-20s. Sharks were Baldwin products. The Shark was not an outgrowth of either the Black Maria's or the DL-109s. It was a completely new diesel which came much later and which was supposed to compete with the F units of the day. It too was a Baldwin, and not an Alco product. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5863	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

They're also offering a model of the North Shore Electroliner, which I'd love, but I already have a brass one.  This was originally announced several years ago, one pilot model was produced, Eric Bronsky tested it, it had trouble going around an 18" radius curve.  The PROTOTYPE could go around a 90' curve, which in HO is just over 12" Many traction layouts have curves much smaller than that, I have mine to the point where it will sneak around a SEVEN inch curve.   Another expensive Chinese shelf queen in the making.   My vintage stuff looks better every day.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) OUCH!!! Will not be getting one of those misfits, Thanks Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:41:09 -0600 $ 429.98 for a loco and 3 cars, two additional 3 car sets at $ 219.98 each set, made in China, they probably won't stay on the track any better than any other Chinese passenger car (a common lament on all the other HO lists), and when the locomotive dies it won't be repairable, no parts, and my Bowser version of the old Varney one that I paid a hundred bucks for (still the going rate), will still be running.  That's why we love Vintage here.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) HI Charlie: JMC/Concor is getting ready to release a newly tooled and updated Aerotrain. Contact them or your local hobby shop and see if you can get one ordered, since these will be short-run production items. Go to this site to view the Aerotrain in detail: www.all-railroads.com/ Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5864	From: trainliker	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: adding you in your layout...

SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD" This will show up as the first album due to the "0". I'll probably delete this album after a week or so since it really isn't "Vintage HO" except in the sense of showing what a somewhat vintage scrapyard might look like. There are six photos I had taken in 1963 at the Pielet Brothers scrap yard. Dave F. was correct that it was near the EMD plant. I noted LaGrange (Illinois) with the information on each slide. In a couple of photos, units do look like a big hand just set the things down in the pile. The photo with the UP and SF units looks that way to me. And the photo with the GN unit especially looks that way. However, none are the "F unit nose" I thought I had seen. But I may have seen exactly that at some other time. There is an ALCO nose but I think still on the frame. Perhaps my memory is faulty due to, shall we say, the "fog of model railroading". Chuck Kinzer --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > > There was some article, I think it was in a "Railroad > Modeler" magazine that showed about the same scene! A > F unit nose amid a pile of junk in a junkyard. If I > find it I'll get it online. > > As to the F unit nose in the basement, I remember > seeing that one as well! > > Cordially, > Gerry D > > --- ckinzer@... wrote: > > > It was the whole nose cut off somewhere in back of > > the entry doors as I recall. It was sitting in a > > normal position, not on its back or side. As I > > recall, it was tilted a little with much other junk > > around it. > > > > I've seen in one of the model magazines where > > somebody has a real F unit nose in their basement > > (somehow). Maybe somebody at the junkyard had, or > > thought they might get, an opportunity to sell it. > > It didn't look like it was a situation where they > > were in the process of scrapping it and they just > > hadn't got to it yet. It looked deliberately > > planted in with other junk. Very "model railroady" > > looking. > > > > Chuck Kinzer > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mike Bauers > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 6:58 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: adding you in your > > layout... > > > > > > Chuck, > > > > That nose in the yard sounds like in interesting > > sight....... > > > > Could you please tell me more about what you > > remember of it? > > > > How much of the front was there? Was it lying on > > the cut-off rear? > > > > What [how much of it] was it and how was it lying > > around?? > > > > I'd like to have a better image in my mind's > > eye......... It sounds > > like something interesting to model. > > > > Related to that; we used to have a very large > > junkyard along one of > > our tracks; where the outside of the entire > > perimeter fence was lined > > with old RR car freight doors for as far as you > > could see...... > > They've since cleaned the place up. But what an > > odd thing it was to > > see for many years. > > > > Best to ya' > > Mike Bauers > > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > > On Mar 20, 2008, at 1:22 PM, trainliker wrote: > > > > > Watch out for falling in the "there's a > > prototype for everything" > > > trap. > > > > > > There was a big scrapyard outside Chicago not to > > far from the EMD > > > plant. It was called "Pilot Bros." or something > > (I think I have the > > > spelling wrong.) In the scrapyard was a cut off > > nose of an F unit > > > just like somebody had planted it on a model > > railroad. It looked > > > very "unrealistic" except for the fact it was > > real. I've got slide of > > > it somewhere. It's too much bother to find it, > > but if I ever run > > > across it, maybe I'll post it. > > > > > > Chuck Kinzer > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl > > <corv8@> wrote: > > >> > > >> I think for years ( actually, decades but there > > were twenty years > > >> without Railroads between) about creating a > > really realistic > > > scrapyard. > > >> Not the sort regularly featured in model rr > > magazines, with old > > > clock > > >> gears, cut off F7 cabs and orphan steam loco > > drivers - one that > > > would > > >> look like the real thing , with car wrecks in > > the process of > > >> dismantling, and all sorts of scale machinery > > .... in a earlier > > > life I > > >> have spent years scrounging those places so I > > should be able to do > > >> this correctly. > > >> > > >> Gerold > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5865	From: Scott	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: RailBox, ummmm JailBox???

Attachments : This is a two fold question.   First, I was informed by someone who was on railroad forum that the car in the photo is was actually made and sold but in limited quantities. Has anyone ever had one of these or still have one or even just seen one?   Secondly, I was also told by someone on this same railroad forum that before the Feds started using "Con-Air" to transfer inmates around, they had 10 specially fitted former troop sleeper cars with bars on the windows. They were supposedly painted a dark gray but my "informant" couldn't recall the reporting marks. He also said there was a special track in the Taylor yard for this train when it came into Los Angeles. He said that he saw once in 1968. When they moved, it was usually two troop sleepers and a heavyweight rider coach/sleeper that carried the guards. They ran as a passenger specials on the SP and aways had rights over any other train. Does anyone have any information they can share on these trains? If I can find enough information that will alllow me to model these cars, this may change the setup of my layout.   Any info would be greatfully appreciated!!! -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5866	From: James Bartelt	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: RailBox, ummmm JailBox???

Yes the walthers Jailbox does exist, I have one.  It was a modified athearn 40ft boxcar painted similar to the Railbox cars of the 80's. They show up from time to time on ebay.   James Bartelt jimbartelt@... Jim’s Railroad & Great Lakes Photo’s http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=1751079 METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2008 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html ----- Original Message ---- From: Scott <neparailfan@...> To: CNJ-MODELER@yahoogroups.com; CR-Classic Moderator <CR-Classic-owner@yahoogroups.com>; CR-Classic@yahoogroups.com; HOmodelers@yahoogroups.com; horailroading <HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com>; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com; NEPAModelRailroadClub@yahoogroups.com; railmarineops@yahoogroups.com; thehoscalemodelrailroadclub@yahoogroups.com; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; weathering@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:17:27 AM Subject: [vintageHO] RailBox, ummmm JailBox??? This is a two fold question.   First, I was informed by someone who was on railroad forum that the car in the photo is was actually made and sold but in limited quantities. Has anyone ever had one of these or still have one or even just seen one?   Secondly, I was also told by someone on this same railroad forum that before the Feds started using "Con-Air" to transfer inmates around, they had 10 specially fitted former troop sleeper cars with bars on the windows. They were supposedly painted a dark gray but my "informant" couldn't recall the reporting marks. He also said there was a special track in the Taylor yard for this train when it came into Los Angeles. He said that he saw once in 1968. When they moved, it was usually two troop sleepers and a heavyweight rider coach/sleeper that carried the guards. They ran as a passenger specials on the SP and aways had rights over any other train. Does anyone have any information they can share on these trains? If I can find enough information that will alllow me to model these cars, this may change the setup of my layout.   Any info would be greatfully appreciated! !! -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadCl ub-subscribe@ yahoogroups. com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitary Modeler-subscrib e@yahoogroups. com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5867	From: Scott	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: RailBox, ummmm JailBox???

Thanks James. It is a unique piece for sure, especially for someone in law enforcement such as myself.   Scott 2008/3/23 James Bartelt <jimbartelt@...>: Yes the walthers Jailbox does exist, I have one.  It was a modified athearn 40ft boxcar painted similar to the Railbox cars of the 80's. They show up from time to time on ebay.   James Bartelt jimbartelt@... Jim's Railroad & Great Lakes Photo's http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=1751079 METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2008 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html ----- Original Message ---- From: Scott <neparailfan@...> To: CNJ-MODELER@yahoogroups.com; CR-Classic Moderator <CR-Classic-owner@yahoogroups.com>; CR-Classic@yahoogroups.com; HOmodelers@yahoogroups.com; horailroading <HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com>; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com; NEPAModelRailroadClub@yahoogroups.com; railmarineops@yahoogroups.com; thehoscalemodelrailroadclub@yahoogroups.com; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; weathering@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:17:27 AM Subject: [vintageHO] RailBox, ummmm JailBox??? This is a two fold question.   First, I was informed by someone who was on railroad forum that the car in the photo is was actually made and sold but in limited quantities. Has anyone ever had one of these or still have one or even just seen one?   Secondly, I was also told by someone on this same railroad forum that before the Feds started using "Con-Air" to transfer inmates around, they had 10 specially fitted former troop sleeper cars with bars on the windows. They were supposedly painted a dark gray but my "informant" couldn't recall the reporting marks. He also said there was a special track in the Taylor yard for this train when it came into Los Angeles. He said that he saw once in 1968. When they moved, it was usually two troop sleepers and a heavyweight rider coach/sleeper that carried the guards. They ran as a passenger specials on the SP and aways had rights over any other train. Does anyone have any information they can share on these trains? If I can find enough information that will alllow me to model these cars, this may change the setup of my layout.   Any info would be greatfully appreciated! !! -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadCl ub-subscribe@ yahoogroups. com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitary Modeler-subscrib e@yahoogroups. com -- My favorite railroads: Erie Lackawanna, Conrail, Penn Central, New York Central. If you are in the NE PA area and looking to be a charter member of a new HO scale model railroad club, stop by or ask me about the NEPA Model Railroad Club. NEPAModelRailroadClub-subscribe@yahoogroups.com My Military Modeling group: 1_35thScaleMilitaryModeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5868	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Hi Don: Those shelf queens are nice, but a bit too expensive for my budget. $300 and $400 for a loco or vintage train is just toooo much - especially for plastic. Just my thoughts, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5869	From: busgrouches	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Metal Engine Bodies

HI I've got a Bowser (Cary Locomotive Works) metal shell's body of the E- 3,4,6 A & B unit's. Are these of VintageHO in nature? There is no frame for these and I was wondering what frames to use. They are not painted. A small plastic bag contains the screens, steps and fuel tanks. Just wondering here in Central Texas. Frank Weed busgrouches@... MP 254 BNSF Lampasas Sub

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5870	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

Chuck, 3 points 1. Are you any relation to Steve? 2. I dunno about removing them. I agree that the photos are not vintage HO, but they sure are interesting. 3. The GM&O DL109 photo (#4). Veeerrrrrrryyyyy interesting cause the lead unit, and maybe the second but my eyes are old, show an ALCO version of a morphedite passenger unit like the baby-face CNW Baldwin I mentioned in an earlier post. This unit had only one prime mover and a baggage area in the rear of the car body where normally a second diesel engine would reside. I knew that ALCO ahd built such a unit but couldn't remember what railroad of if it was a DL109 or a PA. I did consider the DL to be most likely but thought I would have to do some research on the subject. But your photo with the baggage doors open has made that unnecessary. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> wrote: > > SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD" > > This will show up as the first album due to the "0". I'll probably > delete this album after a week or so since it really isn't "Vintage > HO" except in the sense of showing what a somewhat vintage scrapyard > might look like. > > There are six photos I had taken in 1963 at the Pielet Brothers scrap > yard. Dave F. was correct that it was near the EMD plant. I noted > LaGrange (Illinois) with the information on each slide. > > In a couple of photos, units do look like a big hand just set the > things down in the pile. The photo with the UP and SF units looks > that way to me. And the photo with the GN unit especially looks that > way. > > However, none are the "F unit nose" I thought I had seen. But I may > have seen exactly that at some other time. There is an ALCO nose but > I think still on the frame. Perhaps my memory is faulty due to, > shall we say, the "fog of model railroading". > > Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5871	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Hi, Frank!   I did some grinding on an an old Hobbytown E "B" unit and it fits nicely on an Athearn 6-axle frame. Just shorten the mounts inside, doesn't show at all. Plenty of clearance for the drive line, too. Might work here?   The wheelbase is a little off, and you're on your own finding correct side-frames for the trucks. I was planning on it being a "rebuild" for transer service, so a few little things are not too critical.   Other folks may have more ideas - but it will run and pull like crazy... good electrical [pck-up as well.   As with so many other "projects," this one is still in a box(someplace) and not completed, but the idea is fine. Need paint and couiplers and a wee bit of drilling for mounting screws. I plan to use the shortened mounting tabs with 2-56 screws. Over to the group;   yours,   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) busgrouches <busgrouches@...> wrote: HI I've got a Bowser (Cary Locomotive Works) metal shell's body of the E- 3,4,6 A & B unit's. Are these of VintageHO in nature? There is no frame for these and I was wondering what frames to use. They are not painted. A small plastic bag contains the screens, steps and fuel tanks. Just wondering here in Central Texas. Frank Weed busgrouches@... MP 254 BNSF Lampasas Sub ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5872	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Hi Frank, These shells were made for either Hobbytown of Boston or Rivarossi E8 chassis.  The end of the box would say.  If you do not have the box, I do not know how to tell the difference.  If you have either chassis you could try them.  I know the Rivarossi chassis would have two long screws that go though the air tanks on either end of the fuel tanks and hold the body on that way.  So if there are two bosses, bumps on the top above where the air tanks would be under them, then they are for the Rivarossi chassis.  I do not know how they were attached to the Hobbytown chassis.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of busgrouches Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:15 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Metal Engine Bodies   HI I've got a Bowser (Cary Locomotive Works) metal shell's body of the E- 3,4,6 A & B unit's. Are these of VintageHO in nature? There is no frame for these and I was wondering what frames to use. They are not painted. A small plastic bag contains the screens, steps and fuel tanks. Just wondering here in Central Texas . Frank Weed busgrouches@ gmail.com MP 254 BNSF Lampasas Sub

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5873	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

No relation that I know of.  If the Steve Kinzer you are thinking of is the journalist Stephen Kinzer, he lives in Oak Park where I grew up, but still, coincidence.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 5:24 PM Subject: [vintageHO] SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD" Chuck, 3 points 1. Are you any relation to Steve? 2. I dunno about removing them. I agree that the photos are not vintage HO, but they sure are interesting. 3. The GM&O DL109 photo (#4). Veeerrrrrrryyyyy interesting cause the lead unit, and maybe the second but my eyes are old, show an ALCO version of a morphedite passenger unit like the baby-face CNW Baldwin I mentioned in an earlier post. This unit had only one prime mover and a baggage area in the rear of the car body where normally a second diesel engine would reside. I knew that ALCO ahd built such a unit but couldn't remember what railroad of if it was a DL109 or a PA. I did consider the DL to be most likely but thought I would have to do some research on the subject. But your photo with the baggage doors open has made that unnecessary. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "trainliker" <ckinzer@... > wrote: > > SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD" > > This will show up as the first album due to the "0". I'll probably > delete this album after a week or so since it really isn't "Vintage > HO" except in the sense of showing what a somewhat vintage scrapyard > might look like. > > There are six photos I had taken in 1963 at the Pielet Brothers scrap > yard. Dave F. was correct that it was near the EMD plant. I noted > LaGrange (Illinois) with the information on each slide. > > In a couple of photos, units do look like a big hand just set the > things down in the pile. The photo with the UP and SF units looks > that way to me. And the photo with the GN unit especially looks that > way. > > However, none are the "F unit nose" I thought I had seen. But I may > have seen exactly that at some other time. There is an ALCO nose but > I think still on the frame. Perhaps my memory is faulty due to, > shall we say, the "fog of model railroading" . > > Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5874	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: OOPS. Correction to message #5853

OK, I screwed up. In talking about the Baldwin Sharks, I made the following statement; "The normal freight version was model DR-4-4-1500 (Diesel Road, B B, 1500 h.p.)" Well the model designation was correct but the breakdown of what all those digits represented was wrong. the correct break down is Model DR-4-4-1500 (Diesel Road, four axles, four powered axles, 1500 h.p.) The CNW passenger baby face only had motors on the front truck and it's model designation was (DR-6-2-1000) or (Diesel Road, six axles, two powered axles, 1000 h.p.) BTW, EMD also made such units for RI and MoPac. The only streamlined passenger unit builder that didn't make at least one unit with a baggage area in lieu of the second prime mover was FM. It would have been difficult for them as they were the only builder to only use one in their passenger units They didn't need two as they were the only manufacturer to have a 2000 h.p diesel engine suitable for RR use. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5875	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: New File

Please, please re-post the "new File" link to the "O" junkyard.   I managed to delete it   (embarrassed now....)   Thanks in advance!   yours   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5876	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote: > > No relation that I know of. If the Steve Kinzer you are thinking of is the journalist Stephen Kinzer, he lives in Oak Park where I grew up, but still, coincidence. > > Chuck Kinzer The Steve Kinser I was referring to is a very sucessful race car driver in the World of Outlaws winged sprint car series. And, as per usual from an old fart with crs, I just noticed as I typed this that your last names do not have the same spelling. Sorry about that. Well the photos are still great. I wasn't wrong on that. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5877	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Hi Frank: The Rivarossi bodies were held in place by 2 screws that went through the bottoms upward from the fuel tank. Hobbytown had a single screw in the center of the body from the bottom up. The original Cary bodies were likely last produced (by Cary) in the mid to late 70s. That was before Bowser acquired the line. I don't know what Bowser has done with them since. The original Cary castings came either with or without the fuel tank skirts attached, and depended on which chassis you planned to mount it on. If for a Rivarossi unit, the fuel tanks were omitted, since the Rivarossi chassis already had plastic, molded-on fuel tanks as part of its original equipment. Hobbytown chassis did not have fuel tanks on its frame, so the additional parts were included in a small bad with the kits other parts. Depending on what the original installation was to be, Cary offered the kit in 2 versions: with and without fuel tanks. Hope this helps, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5878	From: Bill Daley	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Fred,   Have used an Athern SD-45 6-axle frame under a Hobbytown E7-A shell. Had to remove material from the fuel tanks to fit. Also extended frame to match protype truck spacing. A-Line has replacement E-type sideframes that push right on. Plenty of room for adding DCC decoder. Pulls about 2/3 number of cars that a Hobbytown with DC-90 motor will pull.  Have an E7B shell and another Athern mechanism waiting to be done. Past articles in MR explain various ways to extend frame(s).   Willie Ashleaf   Fred Hultgren wrote....   I did some grinding on an an old Hobbytown E "B" unit and it fits nicely on an Athearn 6-axle frame. Just shorten the mounts inside, doesn't show at all. Plenty of clearance for the drive line, too. Might work here?   The wheelbase is a little off, and you're on your own finding correct side-frames for the trucks. I was planning on it being a "rebuild" for transer service, so a few little things are not too critical.       Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5879	From: Bill Daley	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Dave, a correction...   ...my Hobbytown shells are designed for two screws to be inserted upward thru the frame into bosses(lugs) already cast into the sides of the shell, and tapped for 4-40 screws. Hobbytown shells have "straight" panels that occupy the area where curved fuel tanks are on the protype. Not correct but remember, they're l949 "state-of-the-art" practice.    Usually, you're spot on with your info but not this time,   Respectfully, and amiably submitted   Willie Ashleaf WK2SHR@... wrote: Hi Frank: The Rivarossi bodies were held in place by 2 screws that went through the bottoms upward from the fuel tank. Hobbytown had a single screw in the center of the body from the bottom up. The original Cary bodies were likely last produced (by Cary) in the mid to late 70s. That was before Bowser acquired the line. I don't know what Bowser has done with them since. The original Cary castings came either with or without the fuel tank skirts attached, and depended on which chassis you planned to mount it on. If for a Rivarossi unit, the fuel tanks were omitted, since the Rivarossi chassis already had plastic, molded-on fuel tanks as part of its original equipment. Hobbytown chassis did not have fuel tanks on its frame, so the additional parts were included in a small bad with the kits other parts. Depending on what the original installation was to be, Cary offered the kit in 2 versions: with and without fuel tanks. Hope this helps, Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15? ncid=aolhom00030 000000001) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5880	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: New File

You can just go to the group page and click on "photos" and then click on the folder.   But here are some links:   To the "photos" page: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos     To the "0 Real Diesel Gravyard" folder: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/1c4e   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hultberg To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 6:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New File Please, please re-post the "new File" link to the "O" junkyard.   I managed to delete it   (embarrassed now....)   Thanks in advance!   yours   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5881	From: Frank Weed	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Guys   Thanks for all the info on these units. I'm going to try the 40-2T trucks and maybe make something out of them. I had them up for sale on another group but no takers. They have been collecting dust since  I moved into this house, 27 years ago. After being on the road for a bus company,  I  didn't have time for anything. Then a stroke and slowly working back into the hobby. Again, Thanks for the info. A good group here.    Frank On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Bill Daley <retiredgrouch@...> wrote: Dave, a correction...   ...my Hobbytown shells are designed for two screws to be inserted upward thru the frame into bosses(lugs) already cast into the sides of the shell, and tapped for 4-40 screws. Hobbytown shells have "straight" panels that occupy the area where curved fuel tanks are on the protype. Not correct but remember, they're l949 "state-of-the-art" practice.    Usually, you're spot on with your info but not this time,   Respectfully, and amiably submitted   Willie Ashleaf WK2SHR@... wrote: Hi Frank: The Rivarossi bodies were held in place by 2 screws that went through the bottoms upward from the fuel tank. Hobbytown had a single screw in the center of the body from the bottom up. The original Cary bodies were likely last produced (by Cary) in the mid to late 70s. That was before Bowser acquired the line. I don't know what Bowser has done with them since. The original Cary castings came either with or without the fuel tank skirts attached, and depended on which chassis you planned to mount it on. If for a Rivarossi unit, the fuel tanks were omitted, since the Rivarossi chassis already had plastic, molded-on fuel tanks as part of its original equipment. Hobbytown chassis did not have fuel tanks on its frame, so the additional parts were included in a small bad with the kits other parts. Depending on what the original installation was to be, Cary offered the kit in 2 versions: with and without fuel tanks. Hope this helps, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5882	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: New File

Thank you, Chuck!   I have only a dial-up connection; time is always tight so I seldom go to "group" pages, as downloading the page eats up time from my alloted 4 hours.   I know, that sounds like plenty but I have more than one mail account. This one is personal and I also have a business account - where I spend most of my time when online.   The links work better for me. So thanks again and Happpy Easter, All!   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) ckinzer@... wrote: You can just go to the group page and click on "photos" and then click on the folder.   But here are some links:   To the "photos" page: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos     To the "0 Real Diesel Gravyard" folder: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/1c4e   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hultberg To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 6:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New File Please, please re-post the "new File" link to the "O" junkyard.   I managed to delete it   (embarrassed now....)   Thanks in advance!   yours   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5883	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

If my opinion counts... as I am sure it does not.. As for leaving the scrap yard pictures.. I say sure! Though they are not Vintage HO, they look to be a great inspiring source of modeling information, but if they are to be removed, i would sure love a copy of them..   Thanks,   Sean Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5884	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

If it's for your own personal use, with Chuck's permnission, you can download then right from the group page.    I do prefer that we save the file space for "vintage HO".  I have no problem with "temporary" albums, but I do like to keep things as "on topic" as possible.   Thanks   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD" If my opinion counts... as I am sure it does not.. As for leaving the scrap yard pictures.. I say sure! Though they are not Vintage HO, they look to be a great inspiring source of modeling information, but if they are to be removed, i would sure love a copy of them..   Thanks,   Sean Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5885	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Thanks for the data, Bill. I hadn't done that much research as yet.   I *think* this was for me, although my last name really *is* Hultberg. I know there's a Hultgren in the group - not a near-relation but likely also of Swedish descent. That name always gets my attention, since at first glance it resembles mine.   No, not insulted in any case.   Thanks again! Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)   Bill Daley <retiredgrouch@...> wrote: Fred,   Have used an Athern SD-45 6-axle frame under a Hobbytown E7-A shell. Had to remove material from the fuel tanks to fit. Also extended frame to match protype truck spacing. A-Line has replacement E-type sideframes that push right on. Plenty of room for adding DCC decoder. Pulls about 2/3 number of cars that a Hobbytown with DC-90 motor will pull.  Have an E7B shell and another Athern mechanism waiting to be done. Past articles in MR explain various ways to extend frame(s).   Willie Ashleaf   Fred Hultgren wrote....   I did some grinding on an an old Hobbytown E "B" unit and it fits nicely on an Athearn 6-axle frame. Just shorten the mounts inside, doesn't show at all. Plenty of clearance for the drive line, too. Might work here?   The wheelbase is a little off, and you're on your own finding correct side-frames for the trucks. I was planning on it being a "rebuild" for transer service, so a few little things are not too critical.       Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5886	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

I noticed I hadn't cropped the GM&O photo.  I fixed it and it will now look better at the group place.   I'll try and send you, and anyone else that asks (unless it gets to be too  many), the photos that I posted.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD" If my opinion counts... as I am sure it does not.. As for leaving the scrap yard pictures.. I say sure! Though they are not Vintage HO, they look to be a great inspiring source of modeling information, but if they are to be removed, i would sure love a copy of them..   Thanks,   Sean Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5887	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!  THANKS,   SEAN   a69mustang4me@... Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5888	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

This may be sacrilegious, but this shows that many vintage HO diesels can be used in making a scrapyard on a layout depending on time period.  And also in whatever paint schemes might interest somebody, so long as the paint schemes look pretty tired.   Of course, the same goes for steam.  In fact, I have a bunch of HObbyline plastic berkshires for just that purpose for an idea I am toying with.  There could be scrapping going on and a long "dead" line of the engines and tenders.  But actually, I'm thinking the scene might look better with only a few engines remaining but all the tenders not yet scrapped and lined up.  Perhaps tenders with their engines now long gone might add to the poignency.  And it would take less space.   On the scrapyard with the diesels, note that they weren't all EMD.  EMD took trade ins of all sorts.  Sometimes they got some sort of refurbishing or re-trucking and such and went back into service.  Sometimes they were on their way to the scrap yard.  On the opposite side of a quarry near the EMD plant, there was a track the engines that seemed to be at the "end of the line".  I assume the final move was to the scrap yard.  As a teenager in 1963, a friend of mine and I would pedal our racing bicycles from Oak Park to the EMD plant area and climb in to the various units and otherwise prowl around.  There were old Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton units and all sorts of first generation engines.  And the smell of things old and oily.  So that could be another use for old models of old engines.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD" If it's for your own personal use, with Chuck's permnission, you can download then right from the group page.    I do prefer that we save the file space for "vintage HO".  I have no problem with "temporary" albums, but I do like to keep things as "on topic" as possible.   Thanks   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD" If my opinion counts... as I am sure it does not.. As for leaving the scrap yard pictures.. I say sure! Though they are not Vintage HO, they look to be a great inspiring source of modeling information, but if they are to be removed, i would sure love a copy of them..   Thanks,   Sean Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5889	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 3/23/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Proto Power West had a modified Athearn six axle frame that was powered with a can motor and flywheels to fit E units. They show up on ebay and at shows every now and then and don't usually go for a lot of money. A Line made not only the sideframes, but skirts as well.   Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5890	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

My dead line has exactly that, Chuck - a Hobbyline Berkshire being cut up, along with a couple of old Mantua "little six" and "shifter" and a couple of the Athearn 2-4-0 tank engines. (The later are only painted to look old, not damaged in any way, except for the motors removed.) See <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_14.html> Larger images will be provided if anyone wants them - contact me off-line at <mikesloane@...> Mike ckinzer@... wrote: > > > This may be sacrilegious, but this shows that many vintage HO diesels > can be used in making a scrapyard on a layout depending on time period. > And also in whatever paint schemes might interest somebody, so long as > the paint schemes look pretty tired. > > Of course, the same goes for steam. In fact, I have a bunch of > HObbyline plastic berkshires for just that purpose for an idea I am > toying with. There could be scrapping going on and a long "dead" line > of the engines and tenders. But actually, I'm thinking the scene might > look better with only a few engines remaining but all the tenders not > yet scrapped and lined up. Perhaps tenders with their engines now long > gone might add to the poignency. And it would take less space. > > > Chuck Kinzer >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5891	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

Oops - the Athearn tank engines are 0-4-2 Mike Sloane wrote: > > > My dead line has exactly that, Chuck - a Hobbyline Berkshire being cut > up, along with a couple of old Mantua "little six" and "shifter" and a > couple of the Athearn 2-4-0 tank engines. (The later are only painted to > look old, not damaged in any way, except for the motors removed.) See > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_14.html > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_14.html>> > > Larger images will be provided if anyone wants them - contact me > off-line at <mikesloane@... <mailto:mikesloane%40verizon.net>> > > Mike >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5892	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: New Guy

Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5893	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Hi Steve, Welcome to the group, no, Kadee couplers won't devalue any of your equipment, what devalues equipment is the fact that it was bought, and taken out of the hobby shop in the first place, just like a new car, it loses half its value off the lot, so unless its a real desirable collectible, it shouldn't hurt any, after all, those of us who are operators to begin with, don't pay much attention to so called antique value, we have our trains to have fun with.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:02:57 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New Guy Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. Steve Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5894	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Welcome, Steve!   I agree with Gary - as an operator(would be, I am afraid - lack of time), I prefer Kadee's to most any other. Antique value? If it's possible to keep a vintage piece *vintage,* I'll do so. What the heck - there are even vintage Kadee's at this point. Magnetic were introduced late 50's or early 60's when I was looking into better couplers than the hook-and-loop. First I went to the venerable horn/hook but before I got that finished(I was in junior high then), we had the Kaddes' and I started converting. My gosh, that was a long time ago...   After college I did a few things, never losing sight of my hobby, then got into photo-etching  as an adjunct to my RR efforts(long story), became self-employed and my modeling has been - shall we say - "spotty" ever since.   I love vintage stuff as long as it runs well, stays on the track, and so on. Bowser and a coupla MDC steamers, Athearn blue-box, etc. Variety of cars as fitted my budget and tastes, which changed some.   Rambling again... het, Steve, welcome to a friendly and knowledgeable group of folks!   yours,   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: Hi Steve, Welcome to the group, no, Kadee couplers won't devalue any of your equipment, what devalues equipment is the fact that it was bought, and taken out of the hobby shop in the first place, just like a new car, it loses half its value off the lot, so unless its a real desirable collectible, it shouldn't hurt any, after all, those of us who are operators to begin with, don't pay much attention to so called antique value, we have our trains to have fun with.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:02:57 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New Guy Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. Steve Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5895	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Thanks Fred. My dad got me hooked on trains in the early '60's with a Marx set. We soon added a Varney set and added a bunch of brass track since the Marx stuff wouldn't match with anything else. Had a nice size layout in the basement for a number of years. Went off to school and stuff was packed up in boxes. After I got married, I found out that the wife's father had some trains packed away in the attic. I also found out that a co-worker belonged to a model railroad club not too far away. The new house didn't have room in the basement for a layout, so I joined the club and dug out my stuff and my father-in-laws. The bug really bit then ... the couplers (horn hooks) weren't compatible with what they were running and the Tyco, Bachmann, Life-Like and AHM stuff ran like crap, so I was introduced to Athearn. That did it, I became a blue box junkie. I recently rejoined the club and dug out my Athearns, Atlas, Proto and Spectrum stuff after six years off. I went into the hobby shop and nearly had a heart attack! $20 for a box car that I bought for $4?? $80, $90, $100+ for Athearn engines??? Holy crap, have I been out of it that long? Buy a $25 DCC decoder for my $15 Athearn F7? Here I come Ethyl!   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hultberg To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy Welcome, Steve!   I agree with Gary - as an operator(would be, I am afraid - lack of time), I prefer Kadee's to most any other. Antique value? If it's possible to keep a vintage piece *vintage,* I'll do so. What the heck - there are even vintage Kadee's at this point. Magnetic were introduced late 50's or early 60's when I was looking into better couplers than the hook-and-loop. First I went to the venerable horn/hook but before I got that finished(I was in junior high then), we had the Kaddes' and I started converting. My gosh, that was a long time ago...   After college I did a few things, never losing sight of my hobby, then got into photo-etching  as an adjunct to my RR efforts(long story), became self-employed and my modeling has been - shall we say - "spotty" ever since.   I love vintage stuff as long as it runs well, stays on the track, and so on. Bowser and a coupla MDC steamers, Athearn blue-box, etc. Variety of cars as fitted my budget and tastes, which changed some.   Rambling again... het, Steve, welcome to a friendly and knowledgeable group of folks!   yours,   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: Hi Steve, Welcome to the group, no, Kadee couplers won't devalue any of your equipment, what devalues equipment is the fact that it was bought, and taken out of the hobby shop in the first place, just like a new car, it loses half its value off the lot, so unless its a real desirable collectible, it shouldn't hurt any, after all, those of us who are operators to begin with, don't pay much attention to so called antique value, we have our trains to have fun with.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:02:57 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New Guy Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. Steve Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5896	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Gary,   Thanks for the welcome. I have a bunch of Lionel HO stuff sitting on the shelf and now because of becoming disabled, have a lot of time on my hands. So ... I'm replacing those stock couplers with Kadees. I body mount all my couplers, so have to do a little modification to the cars, like cut off the talgo thingies. ;-) I didn't want to devalue my Marx stuff either.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy Hi Steve, Welcome to the group, no, Kadee couplers won't devalue any of your equipment, what devalues equipment is the fact that it was bought, and taken out of the hobby shop in the first place, just like a new car, it loses half its value off the lot, so unless its a real desirable collectible, it shouldn't hurt any, after all, those of us who are operators to begin with, don't pay much attention to so called antique value, we have our trains to have fun with.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:02:57 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New Guy Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. Steve Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5897	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

That's ok, unless they have no reversing gear, ergo the parking on the "dead line" :-) Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com --- Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote: > Oops - the Athearn tank engines are 0-4-2 > > Mike Sloane wrote: > > > > > > My dead line has exactly that, Chuck - a Hobbyline > Berkshire being cut > > up, along with a couple of old Mantua "little six" > and "shifter" and a > > couple of the Athearn 2-4-0 tank engines. (The > later are only painted to > > look old, not damaged in any way, except for the > motors removed.) See > > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_14.html > > > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_14.html>> > > > > Larger images will be provided if anyone wants > them - contact me > > off-line at <mikesloane@... > <mailto:mikesloane%40verizon.net>> > > > > Mike > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5898	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Hi Willie: Thanks for the note. Win a few, lose a few! I no longer have any Hobbytown or Cary bodies left -- sold them all this past year, so I am reciting from memory. By the way, I was referring ONLY to the E7 bodies in regard to Cary and Hobbytown, and not the Athearn slip-overs that Cary also made for F3s and FTs. Personally, I believed the Cary heavy metal shells were too much of a load on the old Rivarossi (AHM) E-8 3-pole motors of the day, which ultimately caused these motors to burn out quickly trying to move both the heavy casting - and a train. I never really liked Cary bodies. I felt they were too delicate and required far too much prep time in order to paint and decorate, and were always susceptible to damage from dropping, or baking on paint. I dropped an E7 B unit casting one time - and crunched its soft corner forever when it hit the concrete floor. Another time, an E7 B unit melted in the oven when I tried to bake-on the paint. After that, I pretty much gave up on Cary castings, more so when I complained back to Cary and they simply replied "tough s---". The Hobbytowns were nice, but in my mind, have been supplanted by P2K Es, so there was no need to keep these any longer. Stay well, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5899	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Hi Steve: Your comments and reactions to the costs of model trains were interesting. Yeah, things have changed a little bit since you have been out, and now have returned to the hobby. As you may soon find out, much of this new HO stuff is way over-priced for what you get, and is likely to remain so, or even increase as the dollar weakens for imports. Might as well get used to it, unless you are wealthy, or heavily dependent on your credit cards. Having said all of that, you can STILL find some good bargains on the used train groups at far lower prices. Used trains are often just as good as the new stuff out there, just broken in a bit more, and in most cases, in great shape and excellent condition, and priced far below retail. Watch this and other lists; folks are selling all the time. I have been in the hobby for 50 years now, and about half the stuff on my layout is "used", "second hand", "home brew" and not necessarily new. Can't afford new stuff, but more to the point, I just refuse to pay high retail prices for plastics. The used equipment works fine, and I believe that if you have any tweaking skills, you can do well with it too. Whatever you do, don't give up. As they say, "where there is a will, there is a way", and in this hobby, it's true. Welcome to the group, Dave F PS: Check out HO-Model-Train-Trader@yahoogroups.com for lists of used equipment for sale.... ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5900	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

To top it off, them there $20 box cars are not kits! (thirty cents worth of plastic made in China to put an American out of a job.) The only problem with the older stuff is deep flanges. In most cases the wheel sets can be changed out though. Well the likes of Horizon hobbies will effectively kill the hobby anyhow so 20 years from now no-one will ever believe we once bought new kits at less than $5.00. Personally I will never buy a Horizon product. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com --- Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> wrote: > #ygrp-mkp { BORDER-RIGHT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; > PADDING-RIGHT: 14px; BORDER-TOP: #d8d8d8 1px solid; > PADDING-LEFT: 14px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: > 14px 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; > PADDING-TOP: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d8d8d8 1px solid; > FONT-FAMILY: Arial}#ygrp-mkp HR { BORDER-RIGHT: > #d8d8d8 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #d8d8d8 1px solid; > BORDER-LEFT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: > #d8d8d8 1px solid}#ygrp-mkp #hd { FONT-WEIGHT: bold; > FONT-SIZE: 85%; MARGIN: 10px 0px; COLOR: #628c2a; > LINE-HEIGHT: 122%}#ygrp-mkp #ads { MARGIN-BOTTOM: > 10px}#ygrp-mkp .ad { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; > PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: > 0px}#ygrp-mkp .ad A { COLOR: #0000ff; > TEXT-DECORATION: none}Thanks Fred. My dad got me > hooked on trains in the early '60's with a Marx set. > We soon added a Varney set and added a bunch of > brass track since the Marx stuff wouldn't match with > anything else. Had a nice size layout in the > basement for a number of years. Went off to school > and stuff was > packed up in boxes. After I got married, I found > out that the wife's father had some trains packed > away in the attic. I also found out that a co-worker > belonged to a model railroad club not too far away. > The new house didn't have room in the basement for a > layout, so I joined the club and dug out my stuff > and my father-in-laws. The bug really bit then ... > the couplers (horn hooks) weren't compatible with > what they were running and the Tyco, Bachmann, > Life-Like and AHM stuff ran like crap, so I was > introduced to Athearn. That did it, I became a blue > box junkie. I recently rejoined the club and dug out > my Athearns, Atlas, Proto and Spectrum stuff after > six years off. I went into the hobby shop and nearly > had a heart attack! $20 for a box car that I bought > for $4?? $80, $90, $100+ for Athearn engines??? Holy > crap, have I been out of it that long? Buy a $25 DCC > decoder for my $15 Athearn F7? Here I come Ethyl! > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Hultberg > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:04 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy > > > Welcome, Steve! > > I agree with Gary - as an operator(would be, I am > afraid - lack of time), I prefer Kadee's to most > any other. Antique value? If it's possible to keep a > vintage piece *vintage,* I'll do so. What the heck > - there are even vintage Kadee's at this point. > Magnetic were introduced late 50's or early 60's > when I was looking into better couplers than the > hook-and-loop. First I went to the venerable > horn/hook but before I got that finished(I was in > junior high then), we had the Kaddes' and I > started converting. My gosh, that was a long time > ago... > > After college I did a few things, never losing > sight of my hobby, then got into photo-etching as > an adjunct to my RR efforts(long story), became > self-employed and my modeling has been - shall we > say - "spotty" ever since. > > I love vintage stuff as long as it runs well, > stays on the track, and so on. Bowser and a coupla > MDC steamers, Athearn blue-box, etc. Variety of cars > as fitted my budget and tastes, which changed > some. > > Rambling again... het, Steve, welcome to a > friendly and knowledgeable group of folks! > > yours, > > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) > > Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > Welcome to the group, no, Kadee couplers won't > devalue any of your equipment, what devalues > equipment is the fact that it was bought, and > taken out of the hobby shop in the first place, just > like a new car, it loses half its value off the > lot, so unless its a real desirable collectible, > it shouldn't hurt any, after all, those of us who > are operators to begin with, don't pay much > attention to so called antique value, we have > our trains to have fun with.........:o) > > Gary W > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:02:57 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] New Guy > > Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I > have a lot of vintage > stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I > wanted to know what the > consensus is on replacing the original couplers with > Kadees. Does this > lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my > equipment? I browsed > through the prior messages but didn't see anything > to answer my questions. > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your > homepage. > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them > fast with Yahoo! Search. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5901	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Hi Gerry, I'm proud to say that most of my Athearn is of the old blue box variety, and much of my MDC is also of either the black box or the red box variety, (red box being a couple of loco kits I happen to have), yep, last month or so, I picked up a bunch of mill gondolas and a hopper and a couple of boxcars, all Life Like P2k, for $5 a kit, these kits usually retailed anywhere from $15 to $18 per kit, however, Dana got tired of looking at them on his shelf, and decided to have a big sale, he still has too much China crap in his store, but for $5 a car, I wasn't going to pass that up, even though they aren't vintage. You used to work for MDC? I explored your website a little, interesting that you were the one who was designing all those 3-1 kits, I built a couple of them, including the metal log cars that were really their tank car frames, and also did the Battle Mountain structures.............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:33:12 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy To top it off, them there $20 box cars are not kits! (thirty cents worth of plastic made in China to put an American out of a job.) The only problem with the older stuff is deep flanges. In most cases the wheel sets can be changed out though. Well the likes of Horizon hobbies will effectively kill the hobby anyhow so 20 years from now no-one will ever believe we once bought new kits at less than $5.00. Personally I will never buy a Horizon product. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash. ourpage.com Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5902	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: Metal Engine Bodies

Hi Dave, I had one of the FT A unit shells years ago, had it on a vintage Athearn chassis, it worked okay, their steam boiler conversion kit, (still available from the folks at Bowser), is a fine piece, and works well on a Mantua frame, I might even consider doing a piece together utilizing a Mantua frame and mechanism and a Cary conversion boiler.............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:11:56 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Metal Engine Bodies Hi Willie: Thanks for the note. Win a few, lose a few! I no longer have any Hobbytown or Cary bodies left -- sold them all this past year, so I am reciting from memory. By the way, I was referring ONLY to the E7 bodies in regard to Cary and Hobbytown, and not the Athearn slip-overs that Cary also made for F3s and FTs. Personally, I believed the Cary heavy metal shells were too much of a load on the old Rivarossi (AHM) E-8 3-pole motors of the day, which ultimately caused these motors to burn out quickly trying to move both the heavy casting - and a train. I never really liked Cary bodies. I felt they were too delicate and required far too much prep time in order to paint and decorate, and were always susceptible to damage from dropping, or baking on paint. I dropped an E7 B unit casting one time - and crunched its soft corner forever when it hit the concrete floor. Another time, an E7 B unit melted in the oven when I tried to bake-on the paint. After that, I pretty much gave up on Cary castings, more so when I complained back to Cary and they simply replied "tough s---". The Hobbytowns were nice, but in my mind, have been supplanted by P2K Es, so there was no need to keep these any longer. Stay well, Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15? ncid=aolhom00030 000000001) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5903	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

ckinzer@... wrote: > I noticed I hadn't cropped the GM&O photo. I fixed it and it will now > look better at the group place. > > I'll try and send you, and anyone else that asks (unless it gets to be > too many), the photos that I posted. > > Chuck Kinzer Chuck, have downloaded the large version of your pictures - do you have them on file with even better resolution? - Re the "baggage" DL 109... I am definitely sure the baggage door is the opening of the front radiator ; I understand The GM&O had only two standard DL109s ( #270 and 271) which were the two units in your photo. The engine in front is #270 ... I have a better picture of her, standing in exactly the same spot but nose to nose with a PA, and the #271 is gone! A pity none of them was saved ... so many duplicate locomotives preserved and nothing left from them! Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5904	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Gary, No no no no, I didn't "work" for MDC. I was a "contributor" for their three-in-one line. I designed a total four of the "cars" that they produced in that line. Granted I had "input" on the some of the others, but that was before they moved from California. "My" kits were; The Snow Crab, The Flanger, (open like the D&RG), The Side Dump, (p/o of the steam shovel), and the Vanderbuilt Plow. My rewards for these designs was my name on the instruction sheets, about $200 total, and about $100 worth of misc parts I wanted to kitbash with. Well Gary, you must be "near" a real hobby shop. The only one of any consiquence for me is Internet Hobbies ( http://www.internethobbies.com ) and they are about some 30 miles away. Imagine that, I'm in Scranton PA, home of "Steamtown" http://www.nps.gov/stea and there ain't no "real" hobby shop in town! By "real" I mean one that isn't stuck with the restraints of Horizon or Walthers and has "goodies" right there on the shelf to buy. The only two in town are IMHO goof-balls. One thinks there is nothing other than hi-rail O gauge, the likes of Lionel and the other is a lying, cheating b@stard that cheated me out of several hundred dollars back in the mid 90's. I built a web page for him and he kept putting me off with payment, finally saying he wasn't going to pay me. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > Hi Gerry, > > I'm proud to say that most of my Athearn is of the > old blue box variety, and much of my MDC is also of > either the black box or the red box variety, (red > box being a couple of loco kits I happen to have), > yep, last month or so, I picked up a bunch of mill > gondolas and a hopper and a couple of boxcars, all > Life Like P2k, for $5 a kit, these kits usually > retailed anywhere from $15 to $18 per kit, however, > Dana got tired of looking at them on his shelf, and > decided to have a big sale, he still has too much > China crap in his store, but for $5 a car, I wasn't > going to pass that up, even though they aren't > vintage. > > You used to work for MDC? I explored your website a > little, interesting that you were the one who was > designing all those 3-1 kits, I built a couple of > them, including the metal log cars that were really > their tank car frames, and also did the Battle > Mountain structures.............:o) > > Gary W > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:33:12 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy > > To top it off, them there $20 box > cars are not kits! > (thirty cents worth of plastic made in China to put > an > American out of a job.) > > The only problem with the older stuff is deep > flanges. > In most cases the wheel sets can be changed out > though. > > Well the likes of Horizon hobbies will effectively > kill the hobby anyhow so 20 years from now no-one > will > ever believe we once bought new kits at less than > $5.00. > > Personally I will never buy a Horizon product. > > Cordially, > Gerry > http://kitbash. ourpage.com > > > > > > <!-- > > #ygrp-mkp{ > border:1px solid > #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px > 0px;padding:0px 14px;} > #ygrp-mkp hr{ > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} > #ygrp-mkp #hd{ > color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px > 0px;} > #ygrp-mkp #ads{ > margin-bottom:10px;} > #ygrp-mkp .ad{ > padding:0 0;} > #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ > color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} > --> > > <!-- > > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ > font-family:Arial;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ > margin:10px > 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ > margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} > --> > > <!-- > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, > helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, > helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} > #ygrp-text{ > font-family:Georgia; > } > #ygrp-text p{ > margin:0 0 1em 0;} > #ygrp-tpmsgs{ > font-family:Arial; > clear:both;} > #ygrp-vitnav{ > padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} > #ygrp-vitnav a{ > padding:0 1px;} > #ygrp-actbar{ > clear:both;margin:25px > 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} > #ygrp-actbar .left{ > float:left;white-space:nowrap;} > .bld{font-weight:bold;} > #ygrp-grft{ > font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} > #ygrp-ft{ > font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px > solid #666; > padding:5px 0; > } > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ > padding-bottom:10px;} > > #ygrp-reco { > margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} > #ygrp-reco #reco-head { > font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;} > > #reco-grpname{ > font-weight:bold;margin-top:10px;} > #reco-category{ > font-size:77%;} > #reco-desc{ > font-size:77%;} > > #ygrp-vital{ > background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px > 0 8px 8px;} > #ygrp-vital #vithd{ > font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;} > #ygrp-vital ul{ > padding:0;margin:2px 0;} > #ygrp-vital ul li{ > list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid > #e0ecee; > } > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ > font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;} > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ > font-weight:bold;} > #ygrp-vital a{ > text-decoration:none;} > > #ygrp-vital a:hover{ > text-decoration:underline;} > > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ > color:#999;font-size:77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ > padding:6px > 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ > list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ > text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ > background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 > 8px;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ > padding:8px 0;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ > font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ > text-decoration:none;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ > text-decoration:underline;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ > margin:0;} > o{font-size:0;} > .MsoNormal{ > margin:0 0 0 0;} > #ygrp-text tt{ > font-size:120%;} > blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} > .replbq{margin:4;} > --> > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5905	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Now that is a nice picture indeed Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 01:46:52 EDT Mike and List: No, the Black Maria's weren't the same length as the DL-109s. More like the length of an EMD FT at the time, give or take, but certainly not as long as the DL-109/110s that followed. These were all Alco engines. The Black Maria's were built as a single A B A set, and rode on 4-wheel trucks. See photo of a single Black Maria A (DL-203) unit at: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/alco1500c.jpg Also, check this site for more technical descriptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_DL-203 and if you have it, the Second Diesel Spotters Guide (probably out of print by now, but likely available from Abes Books online, a secondary railroad book dealer). For side-view drawings and technical specs, go to this site for the Black Maria in both A and B units: http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataBlackM.HTML The Shark Nose diesels to which you refer were RF-16s mostly in A and B units. Passenger Sharks, ordered only by the PRR, were called BP-20s. Sharks were Baldwin products. The Shark was not an outgrowth of either the Black Maria's or the DL-109s. It was a completely new diesel which came much later and which was supposed to compete with the F units of the day. It too was a Baldwin, and not an Alco product. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5906	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Charlie: Black Marias, DL-203s

Hi Charlie: Glad to help out regarding the Black Marias. Hope you found the links both informative and interesting, and somewhat enlightening. I had thought of cutting down a couple of my P1K DL-109s in order to make a set of the BMs, using an Athearn "F" chassis for power, and some older Alco trucks sideframes. As with most "planned" projects, this one never materialized.....at least not yet anyway. Regards, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5907	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Find a batch of the older Kadees--with the #4 style shank, and the straight mechanical uncoupling pin at the corner of the knuckle. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" <steven_winter@...> > consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this > > > ------------------------------------ > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5908	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD"

 I'll send them to you off group.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] SCRAP YARD PHOTOS POSTED IN ALBUM "0 DIESEL GRAVEYARD" ckinzer@att. net wrote: > I noticed I hadn't cropped the GM&O photo. I fixed it and it will now > look better at the group place. > > I'll try and send you, and anyone else that asks (unless it gets to be > too many), the photos that I posted. > > Chuck Kinzer Chuck, have downloaded the large version of your pictures - do you have them on file with even better resolution? - Re the "baggage" DL 109... I am definitely sure the baggage door is the opening of the front radiator ; I understand The GM&O had only two standard DL109s ( #270 and 271) which were the two units in your photo. The engine in front is #270 ... I have a better picture of her, standing in exactly the same spot but nose to nose with a PA, and the #271 is gone! A pity none of them was saved ... so many duplicate locomotives preserved and nothing left from them! Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5909	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] New Guy

Steve, If the Kadee is on correctly, it is great as it saves me the time to install them.    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Steven Winter Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:03 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] New Guy   Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5910	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Steve:   There's Marx stuff on my layout with Kadees and Central Valleys!   In certain circles, there may be purists who want everything blueprinted and in the original box.  This list is NOT a place where they'll be happy.  As the description says, this is a place for people who OPERATE these grand old models, and if that means Kadees, and new trucks, well then put on Kadees and new trucks.   Welcome to the group, I hope you enjoy it here.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy Gary,   Thanks for the welcome. I have a bunch of Lionel HO stuff sitting on the shelf and now because of becoming disabled, have a lot of time on my hands. So ... I'm replacing those stock couplers with Kadees. I body mount all my couplers, so have to do a little modification to the cars, like cut off the talgo thingies. ;-) I didn't want to devalue my Marx stuff either.   Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5911	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy > Gary, > > No no no no, I didn't "work" for MDC. > > I was a "contributor" for their three-in-one line. > I designed a total four of the "cars" that they > produced in that line. Granted I had "input" on the > some of the others, but that was before they moved > from California. "My" kits were; The Snow Crab, The > Flanger, (open like the D&RG), The Side Dump, (p/o of > the steam shovel), and the Vanderbuilt Plow. > My rewards for these designs was my name on the > instruction sheets, about $200 total, and about $100 > worth of misc parts I wanted to kitbash with. > > Well Gary, you must be "near" a real hobby shop. The > only one of any consiquence for me is Internet Hobbies > > ( http://www.internethobbies.com ) and they are about > some 30 miles away. > > Imagine that, I'm in Scranton PA, home of "Steamtown" > http://www.nps.gov/stea and there ain't no "real" > hobby shop in town! By "real" I mean one that isn't > stuck with the restraints of Horizon or Walthers and > has "goodies" right there on the shelf to buy. The > only two in town are IMHO goof-balls. One thinks there > is nothing other than hi-rail O gauge, the likes of > Lionel and the other is a lying, cheating b@stard that > cheated me out of several hundred dollars back in the > mid 90's. I built a web page for him and he kept > putting me off with payment, finally saying he wasn't > going to pay me. > > Cordially, > Gerry > http://kitbash.ourpage.com Heck, I live within WALKING distance of Walthers' and "I" wish there was a GOOD hobby shop nearby. Unfortunately, the hobby of Model Railroading is going the way of Bowling leagues and Square dancing, nobody wants to invest the time in it anymore, so there won't be shops to support it. (In case you're wondering, I used to bowl league and still square dance weekly <G>). Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5912	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

WK2SHR@... wrote: > > Having said all of that, you can STILL find some good bargains on > the used train groups at far lower prices. And there are still a few companies putting out kits at affordable prices. Check out Accurail for one. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "An intellectual is someone who has discovered something more interesting than sex." -Aldous Huxley

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5913	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Don, what the heck, I square danced with my first wife, then a girlfriend then finally my second wife. We gave it up because it was too far to drive 40+ miles and the club turned into a plus verging on a plus 2. There was also a clique. I'll have to get with you off list on that. Yep on the overpriced China sourced, (kick an American out of a job, money grubbing SOBs), big name companies. (Do I sound a bit bitter about Horizon?) We used to have a Guy around here, Ed Barrows, that ran a hobby shop and as long as I remember, he never had a lick of brass, just a huge variety of every HO name you could think of. When he died relatives sold it off to someone in Dickson City that had a shop for a while near a mall. Apparently the rent was too high so they moved back to an old theater in Dickson City. What happened to them I don't know. They may have sold out or just disappeared by selling off at shows. Oh there's another within Scranton, but he ONLY deals with European models and can "get" stuff from Walthers if you drop by and ask him. But why drop by if all he has is European rolling stock? He has other things, notably German army models and some G scale European stuff. Cordially, Gerry D http://kitbash.ourpage.com --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:14 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy > > > > Gary, > > > > No no no no, I didn't "work" for MDC. > > > > I was a "contributor" for their three-in-one line. > > I designed a total four of the "cars" that they > > produced in that line. Granted I had "input" on > the > > some of the others, but that was before they moved > > from California. "My" kits were; The Snow Crab, > The > > Flanger, (open like the D&RG), The Side Dump, (p/o > of > > the steam shovel), and the Vanderbuilt Plow. > > My rewards for these designs was my name on the > > instruction sheets, about $200 total, and about > $100 > > worth of misc parts I wanted to kitbash with. > > > > Well Gary, you must be "near" a real hobby shop. > The > > only one of any consiquence for me is Internet > Hobbies > > > > ( http://www.internethobbies.com ) and they are > about > > some 30 miles away. > > > > Imagine that, I'm in Scranton PA, home of > "Steamtown" > > http://www.nps.gov/stea and there ain't no "real" > > hobby shop in town! By "real" I mean one that > isn't > > stuck with the restraints of Horizon or Walthers > and > > has "goodies" right there on the shelf to buy. The > > only two in town are IMHO goof-balls. One thinks > there > > is nothing other than hi-rail O gauge, the likes > of > > Lionel and the other is a lying, cheating b@stard > that > > cheated me out of several hundred dollars back in > the > > mid 90's. I built a web page for him and he kept > > putting me off with payment, finally saying he > wasn't > > going to pay me. > > > > Cordially, > > Gerry > > http://kitbash.ourpage.com > > Heck, I live within WALKING distance of Walthers' > and "I" wish there was a > GOOD hobby shop nearby. > > Unfortunately, the hobby of Model Railroading is > going the way of Bowling > leagues and Square dancing, nobody wants to invest > the time in it anymore, > so there won't be shops to support it. (In case > you're wondering, I used to > bowl league and still square dance weekly <G>). > > Don > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5914	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: FEC E7

Hi Chuck: Saw your reply to another fellow on the vintageHO list. Some months ago, you purchased a Hobbytown E7 from me that was custom painted in FEC red and yellow. I never did get around to decaling it, but sent you a decal sheet to go with it. Did you ever get it completed? Reason for the question is that another vintageHO list member named Glenn Joesten did the actual paint work for me when I lived in Monterey, CA. He and I have, after nearly 30 years, renewed our acquaintance on the vintageHO list. He recalls doing 2 E7s for me, (one of which you purchased). He did the paint work around 1979-80, or so (when I bought the unit, it was originally lettered and decaled for SPs Golden State Limited (scarlet and silver). Thought you'd want to know the history of the engine, and if presentable, perhaps post a pic. Stay well, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5915	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: FEC E7

Hi Guys: I goofed on that last post - forgot to change the address line and instead sent it to the group. Sorry 'bout that, my error. It was intended for Chuck who has a FEC layout. Glenn on this list did the paint work up on it some years back..... My error.....and my apologies. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5916	From: Tom	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Hi Steve, I have quite a few, 3 dozen or more, of my Dad's vintage Varney, Roundhouse/MDC cars and locos, I do not consider changing out the couplers or the metal sprung trucks as lowering the value. I look at it as increasing the value because they are being operated on my layout as they were intended to be used. I'm "saving" the old couplers and trucks, I dont really know why, nostalgia? Dad was very proud of thos sprung trucks, but they are all metal and have caused shorts. They were manufactured to be run, not sit in a box or a shelf. Tom Businger, Westlake Ohio --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Winter" <steven_winter@...> wrote: > > Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage > stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the > consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this > lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed > through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. > > Steve >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5917	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/24/2008
Subject: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy

Just to jump on a point that Don made that good couplers (Kadee or equivalent) are crucial to enjoying the "operational" side of vintage HO. I am old enough to remember HO layouts before Kadee Magnamatics became the de facto standard for HO, most operators had to choose between Mantua couplers, dummy couplers, or some other hook-and-loop arrangement. The X2F was the biggest disappointment to hit the market in the late 50s -- it had a lot of hype, but when it arrived it looked bad and didn't solve the operational problems. As most of the guys on this list will tell you, vintage HO locos can be tuned to run just as well as the new locos but they draw about five times as much current (which is no big deal, just turn the rheostat to the right) but the issue has always been being able to set out individual cars without using your hands during an operating session like we had to in the 1950s. I can remember in the 1950s going to a home layout with my Dad to watch an operating session and seeing the guys actually lift each car (dummy couplers) to uncouple it as they switched the sidings. That was pretty rough on the detail -- no wonder people used lots of glue on the details like the ladders and steps! This was a great point Don and I am glad that you brought it up. I hadn't thought about how much the KaDee coupler enhanced model railroading. It is amazing how much more I enjoy my little Penn Line Midget switcher (which I have had since 1956) now that it has KaDee couplers. I can now switch my little 1x5 travel layout "hands free" something that I could never do when the loco only had dummy couplers. Cheers! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Steve: > > There's Marx stuff on my layout with Kadees and Central Valleys! > > In certain circles, there may be purists who want everything blueprinted and in the original box. This list is NOT a place where they'll be happy. As the description says, this is a place for people who OPERATE these grand old models, and if that means Kadees, and new trucks, well then put on Kadees and new trucks. > > Welcome to the group, I hope you enjoy it here. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5918	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Hi Gerry, Thats why I asked, its nice to know some of the manufacturers who made our stuff in the past, its impossible to know them now, since most of them seem to be in China. I do have a real train store near me, the first time I walked in there, it was like going back 35 years, he had a whole wall covered in still in the box AHM steam engines, of all types, he's since sold most of those off, but it was nice while it lasted, he does have quite a few China built items now, however, most of us who use the layout do run the vintage stuff, including Dana..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 5:14:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy Gary, No no no no, I didn't "work" for MDC. I was a "contributor" for their three-in-one line. I designed a total four of the "cars" that they produced in that line. Granted I had "input" on the some of the others, but that was before they moved from California. "My" kits were; The Snow Crab, The Flanger, (open like the D&RG), The Side Dump, (p/o of the steam shovel), and the Vanderbuilt Plow. My rewards for these designs was my name on the instruction sheets, about $200 total, and about $100 worth of misc parts I wanted to kitbash with. Well Gary, you must be "near" a real hobby shop. The only one of any consiquence for me is Internet Hobbies ( http://www.internet hobbies.com ) and they are about some 30 miles away. Imagine that, I'm in Scranton PA, home of "Steamtown" http://www.nps. gov/stea and there ain't no "real" hobby shop in town! By "real" I mean one that isn't stuck with the restraints of Horizon or Walthers and has "goodies" right there on the shelf to buy. The only two in town are IMHO goof-balls. One thinks there is nothing other than hi-rail O gauge, the likes of Lionel and the other is a lying, cheating b@stard that cheated me out of several hundred dollars back in the mid 90's. I built a web page for him and he kept putting me off with payment, finally saying he wasn't going to pay me. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash. ourpage.com --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote: > Hi Gerry, > > I'm proud to say that most of my Athearn is of the > old blue box variety, and much of my MDC is also of > either the black box or the red box variety, (red > box being a couple of loco kits I happen to have), > yep, last month or so, I picked up a bunch of mill > gondolas and a hopper and a couple of boxcars, all > Life Like P2k, for $5 a kit, these kits usually > retailed anywhere from $15 to $18 per kit, however, > Dana got tired of looking at them on his shelf, and > decided to have a big sale, he still has too much > China crap in his store, but for $5 a car, I wasn't > going to pass that up, even though they aren't > vintage. > > You used to work for MDC? I explored your website a > little, interesting that you were the one who was > designing all those 3-1 kits, I built a couple of > them, including the metal log cars that were really > their tank car frames, and also did the Battle > Mountain structures.. ......... ..:o) > > Gary W > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gerry D <gerard_sr@yahoo. com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:33:12 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Guy > > To top it off, them there $20 box > cars are not kits! > (thirty cents worth of plastic made in China to put > an > American out of a job.) > > The only problem with the older stuff is deep > flanges. > In most cases the wheel sets can be changed out > though. > > Well the likes of Horizon hobbies will effectively > kill the hobby anyhow so 20 years from now no-one > will > ever believe we once bought new kits at less than > $5.00. > > Personally I will never buy a Horizon product. > > Cordially, > Gerry > http://kitbash. ourpage.com > > > > > > <!-- > > #ygrp-mkp{ > border:1px solid > #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px > 0px;padding: 0px 14px;} > #ygrp-mkp hr{ > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} > #ygrp-mkp #hd{ > color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px > 0px;} > #ygrp-mkp #ads{ > margin-bottom: 10px;} > #ygrp-mkp .ad{ > padding:0 0;} > #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ > color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;} > --> > > <!-- > > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ > font-family: Arial;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ > margin:10px > 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ > margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;} > --> > > <!-- > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, > helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;} > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, > helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;} > #ygrp-text{ > font-family: Georgia; > } > #ygrp-text p{ > margin:0 0 1em 0;} > #ygrp-tpmsgs{ > font-family: Arial; > clear:both;} > #ygrp-vitnav{ > padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size: 77%;margin: 0;} > #ygrp-vitnav a{ > padding:0 1px;} > #ygrp-actbar{ > clear:both;margin: 25px > 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text- align:right; } > #ygrp-actbar .left{ > float:left;white- space:nowrap; } > .bld{font-weight: bold;} > #ygrp-grft{ > font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;} > #ygrp-ft{ > font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px > solid #666; > padding:5px 0; > } > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ > padding-bottom: 10px;} > > #ygrp-reco { > margin-bottom: 20px;padding: 0px;} > #ygrp-reco #reco-head { > font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;} > > #reco-grpname{ > font-weight: bold;margin- top:10px; } > #reco-category{ > font-size:77% ;} > #reco-desc{ > font-size:77% ;} > > #ygrp-vital{ > background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px > 0 8px 8px;} > #ygrp-vital #vithd{ > font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333; text-transform: uppercase; } > #ygrp-vital ul{ > padding:0;margin: 2px 0;} > #ygrp-vital ul li{ > list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid > #e0ecee; > } > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ > font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text- align:right; padding-right: .5em;} > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ > font-weight: bold;} > #ygrp-vital a{ > text-decoration: none;} > > #ygrp-vital a:hover{ > text-decoration: underline; } > > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ > color:#999;font- size:77%; } > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ > padding:6px > 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; } > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ > list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ > text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;} > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ > background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 > 8px;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ > padding:8px 0;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ > font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size: 100%;line- height:122% ;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ > text-decoration: none;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ > text-decoration: underline; } > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ > margin:0;} > o{font-size: 0;} > .MsoNormal{ > margin:0 0 0 0;} > #ygrp-text tt{ > font-size:120% ;} > blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;} > .replbq{margin: 4;} > --> > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ === message truncated === ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5919	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Ok, since most of you folks agree that changing to Kadees is ok, how does one go about changing couplers and trucks on Marx stuff? The ones I have, have a metal "rivet"(?) holding the trucks on. How do you get them off without messing up the mount?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:39 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy Hi Steve,  I have quite a few, 3 dozen or more, of my Dad's vintage Varney, Roundhouse/MDC cars and locos, I do not consider changing out the couplers or the metal sprung trucks as lowering the value.  I look at it as increasing the value because they are being operated on my layout as they were intended to be used.  I'm "saving" the old couplers and trucks, I dont really know why, nostalgia?  Dad was very proud of thos sprung trucks, but they are all metal and have caused shorts.  They were manufactured to be run, not sit in a box or a shelf. Tom Businger, Westlake Ohio --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Winter" <steven_winter@...> wrote: > > Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage > stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the > consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this > lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed > through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. > > Steve > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5920	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Kadee has a coupler designed to replace truck mounted couplers.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy Ok, since most of you folks agree that changing to Kadees is ok, how does one go about changing couplers and trucks on Marx stuff? The ones I have, have a metal "rivet"(?) holding the trucks on. How do you get them off without messing up the mount?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:39 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy Hi Steve,  I have quite a few, 3 dozen or more, of my Dad's vintage Varney, Roundhouse/MDC cars and locos, I do not consider changing out the couplers or the metal sprung trucks as lowering the value.  I look at it as increasing the value because they are being operated on my layout as they were intended to be used.  I'm "saving" the old couplers and trucks, I dont really know why, nostalgia?  Dad was very proud of thos sprung trucks, but they are all metal and have caused shorts.  They were manufactured to be run, not sit in a box or a shelf. Tom Businger, Westlake Ohio --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Winter" <steven_winter@...> wrote: > > Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage > stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the > consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this > lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed > through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. > > Steve > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5921	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

yeah, I know, but I body mount everything. Gets a bit tricky at times.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy Kadee has a coupler designed to replace truck mounted couplers.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy Ok, since most of you folks agree that changing to Kadees is ok, how does one go about changing couplers and trucks on Marx stuff? The ones I have, have a metal "rivet"(?) holding the trucks on. How do you get them off without messing up the mount?   Steve Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5922	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy

At the club layout, during open houses, "my" area is the lower part of the yard. It's eight tracks, each at least thirty feet long and all have hidden magnets. I can't begin to tell you the amount of fun I have operating that yard. I have about 150 cars that I can shuffle for a five hour session. We don't actually run the trains that I build up, not yet, and there is no particular order the cars have to be in. One session, I put cars together by color. Another I put them together by type and size, all 40' box cars together, then all 50', etc. I even tried to put them together in alphabetical order! I love watching people come over and watch as I couple and uncouple cars. The ask how it's done and I tell them it's magic ... poof! Then I give them the real explanation ... we've had a couple of guys join because they thought it look like great fun. It is, when the cars don't derail and the couplers are working correctly. I've pretty much limited the cars to my own because I know that they run ok and the couplers are the right height. I ran out of ideas at one open house, then had a great idea. I have a file card for each car in the yard. I can deal the cards into eight stacks and go switching from there. That will keep me busy. I'm looking forward to our next open house.   My dad didn't want to change over to knuckle couplers. He had the X2F couplers with their uncoupling ramps. They worked ok most of the time and it was great to see my dad have fun in his own way. He adjusted those couplers like we would the Kadees. He like the X2F's and they worked for him and he had FUN. That's what's important, if you're not having fun, why do it? Those little white plastic uncoupling ramps did the job for him. When I'd go to visit him and take my own equipment, I'd take a couple of Atlas hoppers that I have the AHM Magna-matics on one end. They are the coupler that will mate with either a knuckle coupler or and X2F. We spent a lot of time running our trains together. I so miss those days.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:23 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy Just to jump on a point that Don made that good couplers (Kadee or equivalent) are crucial to enjoying the "operational" side of vintage HO. I am old enough to remember HO layouts before Kadee Magnamatics became the de facto standard for HO, most operators had to choose between Mantua couplers, dummy couplers, or some other hook-and-loop arrangement. The X2F was the biggest disappointment to hit the market in the late 50s -- it had a lot of hype, but when it arrived it looked bad and didn't solve the operational problems. As most of the guys on this list will tell you, vintage HO locos can be tuned to run just as well as the new locos but they draw about five times as much current (which is no big deal, just turn the rheostat to the right) but the issue has always been being able to set out individual cars without using your hands during an operating session like we had to in the 1950s. I can remember in the 1950s going to a home layout with my Dad to watch an operating session and seeing the guys actually lift each car (dummy couplers) to uncouple it as they switched the sidings. That was pretty rough on the detail -- no wonder people used lots of glue on the details like the ladders and steps! This was a great point Don and I am glad that you brought it up. I hadn't thought about how much the KaDee coupler enhanced model railroading. It is amazing how much more I enjoy my little Penn Line Midget switcher (which I have had since 1956) now that it has KaDee couplers. I can now switch my little 1x5 travel layout "hands free" something that I could never do when the loco only had dummy couplers. Cheers! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Steve: > > There's Marx stuff on my layout with Kadees and Central Valleys! > > In certain circles, there may be purists who want everything blueprinted and in the original box.  This list is NOT a place where they'll be happy.  As the description says, this is a place for people who OPERATE these grand old models, and if that means Kadees, and new trucks, well then put on Kadees and new trucks. > > Welcome to the group, I hope you enjoy it here. > > Don > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5923	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy

Steve, I really enjoyed your post about operating the layout with your Dad and how he stuck with X2f couplers. This group has over 300 members and probably has an equal number of reasons why we all like old HO, but for me it was the time spent with my Dad -- who was more of a steam fan than model railroader -- when we worked on the layout. He taught me how to solder, put down track, and tune a locomotive -- stuff I still do to this day. I try to capture some of the exictement I used to get when the new issue of Model Trains and the later Model Railroader would arrive. Just reading the posts from people on the list who are actively restoring and operating locos and cars I only dreamed of having back in 1960 is what keeps me reading this list more than all the others I belong to. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> wrote: > > At the club layout, during open houses, "my" area is the lower part of the yard. It's eight tracks, each at least thirty feet long and all have hidden magnets. I can't begin to tell you the amount of fun I have operating that yard. I have about 150 cars that I can shuffle for a five hour session. We don't actually run the trains that I build up, not yet, and there is no particular order the cars have to be in. One session, I put cars together by color. Another I put them together by type and size, all 40' box cars together, then all 50', etc. I even tried to put them together in alphabetical order! I love watching people come over and watch as I couple and uncouple cars. The ask how it's done and I tell them it's magic ... poof! Then I give them the real explanation ... we've had a couple of guys join because they thought it look like great fun. It is, when the cars don't derail and the couplers are working correctly. I've pretty much limited the cars to my own because I > know that they run ok and the couplers are the right height. I ran out of ideas at one open house, then had a great idea. I have a file card for each car in the yard. I can deal the cards into eight stacks and go switching from there. That will keep me busy. I'm looking forward to our next open house. > > My dad didn't want to change over to knuckle couplers. He had the X2F couplers with their uncoupling ramps. They worked ok most of the time and it was great to see my dad have fun in his own way. He adjusted those couplers like we would the Kadees. He like the X2F's and they worked for him and he had FUN. That's what's important, if you're not having fun, why do it? Those little white plastic uncoupling ramps did the job for him. When I'd go to visit him and take my own equipment, I'd take a couple of Atlas hoppers that I have the AHM Magna-matics on one end. They are the coupler that will mate with either a knuckle coupler or and X2F. We spent a lot of time running our trains together. I so miss those days. > > Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5924	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

Hi Steve, I must admit, I don't have any Marx items at all, but if I did, I would probably take off the original trucks, if I were to re use the trucks, then cut off the talgo coupler and body mount the Kadee..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 11:32:33 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy Ok, since most of you folks agree that changing to Kadees is ok, how does one go about changing couplers and trucks on Marx stuff? The ones I have, have a metal "rivet"(?) holding the trucks on. How do you get them off without messing up the mount?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:39 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy Hi Steve,  I have quite a few, 3 dozen or more, of my Dad's vintage Varney, Roundhouse/MDC cars and locos, I do not consider changing out the couplers or the metal sprung trucks as lowering the value.  I look at it as increasing the value because they are being operated on my layout as they were intended to be used.  I'm "saving" the old couplers and trucks, I dont really know why, nostalgia?  Dad was very proud of thos sprung trucks, but they are all metal and have caused shorts.  They were manufactured to be run, not sit in a box or a shelf. Tom Businger, Westlake Ohio --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Steven Winter" <steven_winter@ ...> wrote: > > Hi, I'm the new guy here. I joined because I have a lot of vintage > stuff that I like to run on the club layout. I wanted to know what the > consensus is on replacing the original couplers with Kadees. Does this > lower the value if I ever have to sell some of my equipment? I browsed > through the prior messages but didn't see anything to answer my questions. > > Steve > ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups. yahoo..com/ group/vintageHO/ join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO- digest@yahoogrou ps.com     mailto:vintageHO- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5925	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Dave My thoughts EGG-zactly Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Introduction (Vintage HO) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:18:53 EDT Hi Don: Those shelf queens are nice, but a bit too expensive for my budget. $300 and $400 for a loco or vintage train is just toooo much - especially for plastic. Just my thoughts, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5926	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

Hi Charlie: Well, when it comes to the prices of some of this train stuff these days, "common sense" has to step in and rule the roost once in awhile. I like trains as much as the next guy -- but I am not going to pay thru the nose for them. Enough is enough! LOL....and for those prices, the mfrs can darn well keep 'em. Stay well, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5927	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Is the new HO really that expensive?

I noticed some comments about cost of new HO, especially plastic, and thought it might be interesting to factor in inflation in some examples.   http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm is the site I used for the dollar converter for converting a retail price "then" to "now".   Globe dummy diesel, 1957: 0.98 then, 7.49 now   Athearn streamlined vista dome. 1962: 5.00 then, 35.18 now   Athearn Budd car, HI-F powered, 1968: 8.00 then, 49.52 now   Athearn F unit, powered, geared, 1961 9.00 then, 55.71 now   Varney box car, stamped steel, 1949 3.00 then, 26.38 now   Varney box car, plastic, 1953 2.00 then, 15.87 now   Varney 2400K Berkshire, 1950 41.95 then, 376.80 now   Varney Aerotrain set (loco, two coaches, observation, track), 1956 19.95 then, 157.13 now   International Models, Inc., C&O 2-6-6-6 brass steam locomotive, 1965 (estimated) 139.50 then, 943.77 now   International Models, Inc. (or Akane), B&O 2-8-2, 1965 (estimated) 34.95 then, 236.45 now   All of the following are all from Carmen Webster's 1953 "Handbook and Catalog for HO Railroaders"...   Lindsay ALCO PA A unit, dual powered, 1953 34.50 then, 273.77 now   Hobbytown E7 A unit, dual powered, 1953 33.50 then, 265.83 now   Varney F3 A unit, dual powered powered, 1953 28.95 then 229.73 now   Walthers EMC Gas Electric ("shuttle-Jack"), 1953 21.95 then, 229.73   Box cars, various manufacturers, 1953 2.50 then 20.63 now - Athearn 2.65 then 21.03 now - Globe 2.70 then 21.43 now - MDC 3.00 then 23.81 now - Varney 3.50 then 27.77 now - Mantua   Streamlined observation car, painted and lettered, various manufacturers, 1953 3.95 then, 31.34 now - Varney 5.95 then, 47.92 now -Blue Line 6.95 then, 55.18 now - American R. R. Models   Streamlined observation car, NOT painted and lettered, various manufacturers, 1953 2.45 then, 19.44 now - Chester 3.75 then, 29.76 now - Sampson 4.50 then, 35.71 now - Kasiner 6.50 then, 51.58 now - Rail Chief 6.95 then, 55.15 now - American Model Toy   Mikado 2-8-2 steam engine kits, various manufacturers, 1953: 19.95 then, 158.31 now - English 27.95 then, 221.79 now - Mantua 34.50 then, 273.77 now - Penn Line   #6 switch, assembled (fiber ties in most cases), various manufacturers, 1953: 1.75 then, 13.89 now - Trackmaster 1.95 then, 15.47 now - Atlas 1.95 then, 15.47 now - Mantua 2.85 then, 22.62 now - Tru-Scale   I'm not so sure the "good old days" are all that much different than the "good new days" overall when it comes to price.  And you tend to get much more in quality and detail today.   I do think the Con Cor Aerotrain offerings, etc, seem a bit pricey.  But they will likely come available for much less after awhile because, after the bloom is off the rose, there are usually too few dollars chasing such things.   When it comes to Chinese manufacturing, well, business is business.  I can't fault businesses for doing that to control costs as an alternative to going out of business to those who do manufacturer in China or wherever.  You see, it seems that while many people grouse about Chinese goods, they also have bought boatloads of them.   Regarding craftsman kits:  For the most part, I think there are more opportunities to buy craftsman kits on ebay than you ever had walking into your neighborhood hobby shop.  So you can buy plenty and not build them.  Thanks to the folks in the past that bought them, but didn't build them.   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5928	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Hi Chuck: Good work on the inflation factors. However, that's not the problem or the complaint (so far). The "figures" still don't "justify" the high costs. More to the point is the actual US cost of the product desired, or what we have to "fork out", compared to what it is actually worth to "us". A trick I learned in the antique business is that a product (any product) is ONLY worth what folks are willing to pay for it, and not a whole lot more, regardless of inflation, taxes, tariffs, add-ons, excises, mark-ups, import fees, et al (no one cares about all of that at the individual user level -- they just want the item). "Most" folks are willing to pay a fair price, and a few are willing to allow themselves to be gouged outright. Consider for a minute what it is that one is really getting for the big bucks: just a plastic, RTR locomotive, that is all. A toy to play with. It's not a car, and you can't go anywhere in it; it can't cook, so you can't eat it; by itself, is serves no useful purpose, except as a play thing. So, as a material object, what is it really worth in common sense dollars, considering it probably costs $10 to make in the first place just in materials alone (and that's not even in USA wages). By contrast, a Chinese made cell phone does more than a Chinese made model HO diesel, and still costs less....by lots. At least with the cell phone, you can send messages, emails, pictures, use it as a camera, tells time, you can listen to music on it, store messages, talk on it, and connect it to your computer. The point is: Lots more for the dollar, in spite of inflation, production costs, et al. Just a thought. Thanks for the figures...... Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5929	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

>----- Original Message ----- >From: Steven Winter >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:32 AM >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy >Ok, since most of you folks agree that changing to Kadees is ok, how does >one go about changing couplers and trucks on Marx stuff? The ones I have, >have a >metal "rivet"(?) holding the trucks on. How do you get them off >without messing up the mount? With great difficulty. If you find a way, let me know. I treat mine like AHM or Bochmann cars in later years, I drill out the rivet, fill the hole with epoxy and drill and tap(2:56) a new hole to mount a regular truck. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5930	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: New Guy

That's what I was afraid of ... drilling out the old rivet is my main concern.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy >----- Original Message ----- >From: Steven Winter >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:32 AM >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy >Ok, since most of you folks agree that changing to Kadees is ok, how does >one go about changing couplers and trucks on Marx stuff? The ones I have, >have a >metal "rivet"(?) holding the trucks on. How do you get them off >without messing up the mount? With great difficulty.  If you find a way, let me know. I treat mine like AHM or Bochmann cars in later years, I drill out the rivet,  fill the hole with epoxy and drill and tap(2:56)  a new hole to mount a regular truck. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5931	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy

A couple of schemes for sorting cars--John Allen suggested to me one time--I was a member of the West Bay Club in Menlo Park at the time  and was having fun shuffling cars with MDC couplers on the O gauge yard--John suggested picking a digit in the car number--if odd--westbound, if even, east.  Worked well--always had a crowd watching me switch.    On another layout I was again running the main yard--I decided to pull out all the "food" cars and send them down one track.  All the beer  and meat reefers, the wine tanker, the Heinz pickles and Kraft cheese cars--even the layout owner--a rather crusty retired Navy officer enjoyed that train.   ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy At the club layout, during open houses, "my" area is the lower part of the yard. It's eight tracks, each at least thirty feet long and all have hidden magnets. I can't begin to tell you the amount of fun I have operating that yard. I have about 150 cars that I can shuffle for a five hour session. We don't actually run the trains that I build up, not yet, and there is no particular order the cars have to be in. One session, I put cars together by color. Another I put them together by type and size, all 40' box cars together, then all 50', etc. I even tried to put them together in alphabetical order! I love watching people come over and watch as I couple and uncouple cars. The ask how it's done and I tell them it's magic ... poof! Then I give them the real explanation ... we've had a couple of guys join because they thought it look like great fun. It is, when the cars don't derail and the couplers are working correctly. I've pretty much limited the cars to my own because I know that they run ok and the couplers are the right height. I ran out of ideas at one open house, then had a great idea. I have a file card for each car in the yard. I can deal the cards into eight stacks and go switching from there. That will keep me busy. I'm looking forward to our next open house.   My dad didn't want to change over to knuckle couplers. He had the X2F couplers with their uncoupling ramps. They worked ok most of the time and it was great to see my dad have fun in his own way. He adjusted those couplers like we would the Kadees. He like the X2F's and they worked for him and he had FUN. That's what's important, if you're not having fun, why do it? Those little white plastic uncoupling ramps did the job for him. When I'd go to visit him and take my own equipment, I'd take a couple of Atlas hoppers that I have the AHM Magna-matics on one end. They are the coupler that will mate with either a knuckle coupler or and X2F. We spent a lot of time running our trains together. I so miss those days.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:23 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy Just to jump on a point that Don made that good couplers (Kadee or equivalent) are crucial to enjoying the "operational" side of vintage HO. I am old enough to remember HO layouts before Kadee Magnamatics became the de facto standard for HO, most operators had to choose between Mantua couplers, dummy couplers, or some other hook-and-loop arrangement. The X2F was the biggest disappointment to hit the market in the late 50s -- it had a lot of hype, but when it arrived it looked bad and didn't solve the operational problems. As most of the guys on this list will tell you, vintage HO locos can be tuned to run just as well as the new locos but they draw about five times as much current (which is no big deal, just turn the rheostat to the right) but the issue has always been being able to set out individual cars without using your hands during an operating session like we had to in the 1950s. I can remember in the 1950s going to a home layout with my Dad to watch an operating session and seeing the guys actually lift each car (dummy couplers) to uncouple it as they switched the sidings. That was pretty rough on the detail -- no wonder people used lots of glue on the details like the ladders and steps! This was a great point Don and I am glad that you brought it up. I hadn't thought about how much the KaDee coupler enhanced model railroading. It is amazing how much more I enjoy my little Penn Line Midget switcher (which I have had since 1956) now that it has KaDee couplers. I can now switch my little 1x5 travel layout "hands free" something that I could never do when the loco only had dummy couplers. Cheers! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Steve: > > There's Marx stuff on my layout with Kadees and Central Valleys! > > In certain circles, there may be purists who want everything blueprinted and in the original box.  This list is NOT a place where they'll be happy.  As the description says, this is a place for people who OPERATE these grand old models, and if that means Kadees, and new trucks, well then put on Kadees and new trucks. > > Welcome to the group, I hope you enjoy it here. > > Don > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5932	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Introduction (Vintage HO)

At $300, you can get one of the new craft-cutters [scrap-booker/cnc-cutter] and make a slew of models with the old layered sides method. It's a new art to master, but you'll get one heck of a lot of models for the same cost as one or two China RTR's. For those that remember the Paul Moore craftman line of kits that were made by his hands with this technique, It's now a matter of de-constructing from published train plans and having a machine make as many car side layers are you want, in one heck of an hurry. I'm still learning the art. But if all those little, old ladies can do it, I know I'll be able to do it as well. I haven't been fast, yet.......... But I've got a lot of the old Paul Moore catalogs and blue-prints to remake into model cars of todays' standards........ With yesterday's construction techniques and a machine that cuts just a hair slower than a much more expensive laser-cutter. I don't have myself up to speed. But I should be able to lay parts from a long out of production passenger car on a computer scanner, edit the result into the program converted cut and fold lines, and make as many enhanced duplicates as I wish. One thing I've been wanting is a few of those old Pendulum coaches. I have one that someone re-painted and is rather ugly in it's old silver paint. I want to take that and make a slew more in cut-out blank material to have  a few cars of those impossible to get cars. I've got a C&NW set of punched metal HO streamliners, 3 or four cars, that seem to have never been assembled and I only have the complete shells........it's the same way to have a long train of those cars with all-new parts. Well......... Sorry to rave like this about a non-vintage tool. You can see how handy this thing can be. I've been treasuring a never built Varney [?] sheet of embossed HO caboose. I'll never build the thing from that collectable item............ But I can scan it, and have the cnc-cutter emboss to the original specs while cutting it out at the same time in brand new craft foil or other shim stock........ For now, I do see other people doing this sort of thing in their respective crafting hobby. Sort-of soon, I'll be doing it for myself in a hobby they just aren't in with their scrap-booking. They swear you can print out your sheets in color with registration marks on the page; then cnc-cut the printed project.  I see their results with this and believe them......... I look forward to trying this sort-a soon with a very vintage printed side passenger car........ I'm a Mad-man............ But at least I think it may be a -GOOD- madness. So to get back to the topic......... I won't be buying a bunch of Chinese RTR's when the price of one of those allows me to model a potentially huge number of models over the next few years. And I will  get my long missed, but now upgraded to 2008 Paul Moore car fleet of very vintage designs......... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Mar 25, 2008, at 3:59 PM, Charles Windes wrote: Dave My thoughts EGG-zactly Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... Hi Don: Those shelf queens are nice, but a bit too expensive for my budget. $300 and $400 for a loco or vintage train is just toooo much - especially for plastic. Just my thoughts, Dave F

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5933	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

You are comparing apples and oranges to the extreme.   A cell phone is manufactured in huge volume, not limited runs.  It has economies of scale that model railroad manufacturers could only dream of.   The engineering for a cell phone is enormous, but spread over even more enormous quantities (I know folks from QualComm).  The engineering (dies and such) for model railroad products are spread over extremely small quantities in comparison.   Also, there is "cost of sales".  How much does it cost to advertise and otherwise market, per cell phone, versus, say, one of the newer plastic steam engines?  I really don't know the answer.  But I can make an educated guess that the cost of sales for cell phones is practically nothing per unit for those with the larger market shares.   By your analysis, jewelry is a far more ridiculous purchase.  To some, may it is.  And to some, it isn't.  Utility is not the same as value.  Your argument for what "does more" ignores what is in the eye of the beholder.  I can assure you that a nice model locomotive "does more" for me than having a camera or music or internet access or whatever in my cell phone (things that I don't need or want).    A great many things purchased are not "needed" for any utilitarian purpose.  But that is no reason to use the fact that they may be hobby or aesthetic related as a club to denigrate them.  And some purchases may have utility, but more "jewelry" aspect than needed.  Cars are a good example.  They are obviously more than just "transportation" for most and they are marketed that way.   Finally, there are still some people who don't need and don't want cell phones and have no purpose for them.  To them, it's needless techno-junk.  And considering the fees month after month, year after year, very expensive techno junk.  (I pay $100 per year, by the way, for 400 minutes and leave my phone turned off in my glove compartment.  If anyone wants to reach me, they can try at my home or work phone and leave a message.  I don't even give out my number!  So I'm willing to pay about $8 per month for a portable emergency phone.  It does me no good that I can also play games on it.)   Regarding any cost analysis, the hobby business is like most othera and has competition.  Serious competition.  Therefore, a vendor is going to have a tough time consistently "gouging" anyone.  If their price point is too excessive, they will lose market share to competition.  The "$10 cost" number tossed out must therefore be rather incomplete to the extreme.  It reminds me of when this or that person in government rails against pharmaceutical companies for sell a few pennies of chemicals for hundreds of dollars.  They conveniently forget the enormous devolopment cost, liability issues, and all the rest of the costs to bring an item to market.   If anybody thinks anybody is really "gouging", then they have an opportunity to get into the business and try and compete themselves and undercut the "gouger" yet still make profit.  It's just that the facts of business life make that a little harder to do than many think.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Hi Chuck: Good work on the inflation factors. However, that's not the problem or the complaint (so far). The "figures" still don't "justify" the high costs. More to the point is the actual US cost of the product desired, or what we have to "fork out", compared to what it is actually worth to "us". A trick I learned in the antique business is that a product (any product) is ONLY worth what folks are willing to pay for it, and not a whole lot more, regardless of inflation, taxes, tariffs, add-ons, excises, mark-ups, import fees, et al (no one cares about all of that at the individual user level -- they just want the item). "Most" folks are willing to pay a fair price, and a few are willing to allow themselves to be gouged outright. Consider for a minute what it is that one is really getting for the big bucks: just a plastic, RTR locomotive, that is all. A toy to play with. It's not a car, and you can't go anywhere in it; it can't cook, so you can't eat it; by itself, is serves no useful purpose, except as a play thing. So, as a material object, what is it really worth in common sense dollars, considering it probably costs $10 to make in the first place just in materials alone (and that's not even in USA wages). By contrast, a Chinese made cell phone does more than a Chinese made model HO diesel, and still costs less....by lots. At least with the cell phone, you can send messages, emails, pictures, use it as a camera, tells time, you can listen to music on it, store messages, talk on it, and connect it to your computer. The point is: Lots more for the dollar, in spite of inflation, production costs, et al. Just a thought. Thanks for the figures..... . Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15? ncid=aolhom00030 000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5934	From: cnj999	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote: > > I noticed some comments about cost of new HO, especially plastic, and thought it might be interesting to factor in inflation in some examples. > > http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm is the site I used for the dollar converter for converting a retail price "then" to "now". Chuck, I've got to say that such a comparison tends to be rather misleading. Model trains are bought with disposable income and are in the same category as TVs, computers, and countless other similar items. These are considered more or less "Luxuries" and their pricing generally changes with time at a decidedly slower rate than the "Necessities" that common inflation figures are based on, the so- called "market basket." Perhaps a more meaningful figure might be found through a comparison of hobby pricing vs. mean worker (not household) income over the years. It would certainly be interesting anyway. Likewise, having been around in the 1950's myself and knowing how folks looked upon say a $50 bill, I can vouch to the fact that a $41 Varney locomotive was not looked upon by hobbyists then as being as expensive as a $375 engine today. If one looks into the history of pricing trends displayed in model railroading over the course of many years, it becomes apparent that much of the sharp price increases in our hobby have come fairly recently. The cause can be traced to several changing factors and, I'm afraid, ones only likely to escalate in the future. Perhaps the most influential of these are that the hobby's size is steadily contracting and its membership aging. At the same time, manufacturers have gone to increasingly limited runs to force more immediate buying (stocking of items is not part of a modern business plan). To be sure, there are others and we really haven't yet seen how the latest increases in oil pricing will factor into the cost of imported models. Having been active through most of the hobby's post war period, in my opinion during the 1970's and 80's the average hobbyist's dollar bought more than during any other interval and certainly more than today. CNJ999

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5935	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

I don't think an inflation reference is misleading at all.  It represents buying power, that's all.  If someone chooses to buy necessities or luxuries with it is irrelevent.  It doesn't change the cost to develop, produce, and market a product.   The examples I gave (as all inflation examples do) simply make a dollar per dollar comparison.  It is factual and not emotional.   Average income has increased generally along the lines of inflation so it takes about as many hours of work to buy many of the same items today as it did ten or fifty years ago.  There are exceptions, especially in electronics which are deflationary.  Such as TV's.  The dollars it took to buy a 1950's color TV would be a huge amount of dollars today if TVs were made the same way in the same quanitities.  But TV manufacturing (like other home electronics) has become dirt cheap after being adjusted for inflation.   That's probably one of the reasons that folks may think a $375 engine is expensive today, when it really isn't any more expensive than fifty years ago, and it is better quality on top of it.  You can't mass produce HO engines on a microchip.   One of the "blue collar" comedy guys has a bit where he complains to a sales person about a $300 pair of designer sunglasses when you can buy a digital TV for less at K-Mart that receives and decodes satellite signals from outer-f&^%$#-space.  But both items are most likely near a price point they need to be at.  So are the sunglasses over priced?  You would have to compare them within the sunglasses market to determine that.    And over the many years the percentage of disposable income has decreased but only very moderately.  And lately, overall household income has decreased adjusted for inflation, but again, not by very much.  So on average, people still have about the same bucks to play with as they have had for a long time.  And after buying a too-expensive car and a too-expensive house and too-expensive sneakers and too-expensive coffee and too-many techno-toys, maybe less is available for traditional hobbies.  That's not the fault of the hobbies or the piece price of any hobby item.   Regarding the 70's and 80's versus today.  Well, I don't know.  I do think that companies like Athearn seemed to keep their prices rather low for a long time.  But I don't think all items were like that.  Athearn probably had their engineering and die costs long since amortized and could get away with it - for awhile.  Until the market seemed to demand higher quality and detail.   Oil has to be a tiny fraction of the cost whether we are talking about the miniscule amounts of plastic used or the miniscule shipping costs for items weighing a few pounds or even a few ounces.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: cnj999 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 5:04 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Is the new HO really that expensive? --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, <ckinzer@... > wrote: > > I noticed some comments about cost of new HO, especially plastic, and thought it might be interesting to factor in inflation in some examples. > > http://www.dollarti mes.com/calculat ors/inflation. htm is the site I used for the dollar converter for converting a retail price "then" to "now". Chuck, I've got to say that such a comparison tends to be rather misleading. Model trains are bought with disposable income and are in the same category as TVs, computers, and countless other similar items. These are considered more or less "Luxuries" and their pricing generally changes with time at a decidedly slower rate than the "Necessities" that common inflation figures are based on, the so- called "market basket." Perhaps a more meaningful figure might be found through a comparison of hobby pricing vs. mean worker (not household) income over the years. It would certainly be interesting anyway. Likewise, having been around in the 1950's myself and knowing how folks looked upon say a $50 bill, I can vouch to the fact that a $41 Varney locomotive was not looked upon by hobbyists then as being as expensive as a $375 engine today. If one looks into the history of pricing trends displayed in model railroading over the course of many years, it becomes apparent that much of the sharp price increases in our hobby have come fairly recently. The cause can be traced to several changing factors and, I'm afraid, ones only likely to escalate in the future. Perhaps the most influential of these are that the hobby's size is steadily contracting and its membership aging. At the same time, manufacturers have gone to increasingly limited runs to force more immediate buying (stocking of items is not part of a modern business plan). To be sure, there are others and we really haven't yet seen how the latest increases in oil pricing will factor into the cost of imported models. Having been active through most of the hobby's post war period, in my opinion during the 1970's and 80's the average hobbyist's dollar bought more than during any other interval and certainly more than today. CNJ999

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5936	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy

Steve, Then maybe making an adapter car to put at the front of your Marx cars might be a path to take.  Take a common car and put a Kadee at one end and a Marx coupler at the other.  You can pull your Marx cars around the layout and not change the originalness of them.  Because maybe converting a Marx is different than a Varney on the collecting side.  I do not know about that point.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Steven Winter Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:17 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy   That's what I was afraid of ... drilling out the old rivet is my main concern.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy   >----- Original Message ----- >From: Steven Winter >To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:32 AM >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Guy >Ok, since most of you folks agree that changing to Kadees is ok, how does >one go about changing couplers and trucks on Marx stuff? The ones I have, >have a >metal "rivet"(?) holding the trucks on. How do you get them off >without messing up the mount? With great difficulty.  If you find a way, let me know. I treat mine like AHM or Bochmann cars in later years, I drill out the rivet,  fill the hole with epoxy and drill and tap(2:56)  a new hole to mount a regular truck. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups. yahoo..com/ group/vintageHO/ join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO- digest@yahoogrou ps.com     mailto:vintageHO- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/   Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5937	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Hi Chuck: Regarding your last comment about oil being a part of the plastic making process. True enough, but perhaps we would be better off if mfrs went to resin instead of plastic. I have several resin models, and once painted, you can't tell the difference. Actually, resin bodies are a bit thicker and more resilient than some of the plastics used today. Today, resin is a bit more expensive, but if it were applied to the mass market, it might be cheaper in the long run....and either way, it might be a less expensive alternative. Just my 2 cents. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5938	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

CNJ999: Agree wholeheartedly as one who has been around the hobby for about the same length of time. For those that haven't, there was a time when you could buy an entire train set for $20.00 - and it wasn't all that many years ago. Higher-end locos were a bit more, but still "affordable" on a working mans salary. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5939	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

I think my first "train set" was $19.95 from an American Auto store. It was a Lionel HO with the M&StL gear driven Hustler. By some fluke, it had a gray Erie caboose in it. It came with a log car and a gondola that had a load of scrap iron. Wish I still had it. Cordially, Gerry --- WK2SHR@... wrote: > CNJ999: > > Agree wholeheartedly as one who has been around the > hobby for about > the same length of time. For those that haven't, > there was a time when > you could buy an entire train set for $20.00 - and > it wasn't all that many > years ago. Higher-end locos were a bit more, but > still "affordable" on a > working mans salary. > > Dave F > > > > ************** > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video > on AOL > Home. > > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5940	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

A problem on using resin vs. styrene for production is the slowness of the process.  Injection molding is very quick--the part is ready to come out of the molds in less than a minute.  Resin needs time to set up and cure--several minutes to a half hour or more. Taking 20 minutes to cure would mean having at least 20 molds to keep up the same pace as a single die in an injection molding machine.   There are other plastics than styrene that can be used for injection molding when certain characteristics are desired.  Many years ago US Hobbies did some O Scale boxcar kits in ABS.  PBL was using some mystery miracle plastic to do the underbody detail for some West Side log cars that would mold well and cement with MEK.  He was very secretive about it other than it had some medical use.    Molds for resin can be made on the kitchen table--using masters made just as one might make the final parts for a scratchbuilt model.  A "de-airing chamber" can be made of common containers and a vacuum cleaner.  Costs for an average model might run a couple hundred dollars at most.Usually the service life is in the three-figures.   Injection molding requires dies cut in brass or steel, depending on the life desired. Costs can easily run into six figures, so large runs are necessary to amortize the tooling.    So, you can see that there is a place for both materials. gj----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Is the new HO really that expensive? Hi Chuck: Regarding your last comment about oil being a part of the plastic making process. True enough, but perhaps we would be better off if mfrs went to resin instead of plastic. I have several resin models, and once painted, you can't tell the difference. Actually, resin bodies are a bit thicker and more resilient than some of the plastics used today. Today, resin is a bit more expensive, but if it were applied to the mass market, it might be cheaper in the long run....and either way, it might be a less expensive alternative. Just my 2 cents. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5941	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/25/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Resin is slow and tedious and harder to process control compared to injection molding which is fast and generally extremely reliable.  It's no accident that so many parts are injected molded and not cast from resin.   For an extremely low production run with inexpensive tooling, resin can make sense (such as Westerfield cars).  But it's a tough sell once you get beyond the cottage industry.   And besides, resins tend to come from petrochemical products (oil) anyway.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Is the new HO really that expensive? Hi Chuck: Regarding your last comment about oil being a part of the plastic making process. True enough, but perhaps we would be better off if mfrs went to resin instead of plastic. I have several resin models, and once painted, you can't tell the difference. Actually, resin bodies are a bit thicker and more resilient than some of the plastics used today. Today, resin is a bit more expensive, but if it were applied to the mass market, it might be cheaper in the long run....and either way, it might be a less expensive alternative. Just my 2 cents. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15? ncid=aolhom00030 000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5942	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Hi Dave, Unfortunately, the working mans salary hasn't gone up as much as the cost of living, but try telling an employer that!!!!!!!LOL Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 11:15:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Is the new HO really that expensive? CNJ999: Agree wholeheartedly as one who has been around the hobby for about the same length of time. For those that haven't, there was a time when you could buy an entire train set for $20.00 - and it wasn't all that many years ago. Higher-end locos were a bit more, but still "affordable" on a working mans salary. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15? ncid=aolhom00030 000000001) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5943	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Hi Dave, Actually resin is far more expensive just in time alloted for casting the various parts, notice that most of your resin kits are usually very limited runs of very limited subjects? As a resin caster myself, I can attest to the that, granted that a full set of dies can certain set one back by tens of thousands of dollars, (unless you can find a tool and die man who happens to be starving!), the plastic pellets are cheap, even in todays dollars, what your paying for when you buy all of the new stuff today is really not the plastic, nor the other materials in a given locomotive or piece of rolling stock. What your paying for is the work of the tool man, the work of the electronics man, (since no one seems to be interested in buying regular old DC locos anymore), the demographics involved, the limited run mentality of the manufacturer, and of course, the .30 cents that goes to the Chinese guy who actually makes the $500.00 BLI  locomotive, paints it, and puts it all together for you, so you don't have to!!!!!!!!!!!:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 11:11:24 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Is the new HO really that expensive? Hi Chuck: Regarding your last comment about oil being a part of the plastic making process. True enough, but perhaps we would be better off if mfrs went to resin instead of plastic. I have several resin models, and once painted, you can't tell the difference. Actually, resin bodies are a bit thicker and more resilient than some of the plastics used today. Today, resin is a bit more expensive, but if it were applied to the mass market, it might be cheaper in the long run....and either way, it might be a less expensive alternative. Just my 2 cents. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15? ncid=aolhom00030 000000001) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5944	From: John Barlow	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Folks,   I have heard this one before. I am not going to support or excuse the prices that some new HO models go for. The real idea is to individually bring the hobby into perspective and to cut corners where and when you can.   I've seen the Con-Cor GM Aerotrain. My-o-my! The price is outlandish at MSRP to me. And that's for a loco and three cars. Add on the three additional cars, sold separately, just to make a more prototypical length of train...you are within a football field's length of $1,000...or half of that. I'm a PRR SLF and even in my present home of Denver that version has been scarfed up at a little off that MSRP. I can remember seeing it whiz by in the distance (or the top of it) from my elementary school in Philadelphia, Pa, at 10:30 A.M. practically every morning, northbound on the Northeast Corridor to New York. My point: It has a limited value to me...not something to run out and gotta have...but that's me. It passed through PRR history fairly rapidly and moved on unaccepted...so be it. I caught up to it in 1985 in Rock Island colors at the National Transportation Museum outside St. Louis, Mo,...then in need of good restoration.   The modeler, who hears that a given retailer will ask a price at the level he thinks the market will bear, is looking at a shop that will be going out of business in the not too distant future. Look at his/her competition, and if they are noticeably different and lower, he/she will go belly up in good order. I saw that happen years ago to a man here in Denver in another hobby area. His protestations that "But I'm just a little guy!" didn't feed the bulldog. Modelers vote with their expendable cash...and that's reality.   The hobby has changed technologically, especially in plastics. I'm no DCC'er, but almost every plastic loco today has to come with a DCC decoder. That isn't the big expense with some locos...they may also have sound capability. That last thing adds about $100 to a plastic loco's price. I like sound, and the wisest thing the importers did was not to technologically marry sound exclusively to DCC...or it would have ended up in a museum showcase along side the PFM Sound System (remember that thing?) So, we added something new...and it comes with a price tag.   Model trains don't do a lot of things, mentioned elsewhere. I may not be getting the exercise, but what about golf or boat ownership costs? These autos are out of sight in the showroom or used and out on some lot. Add to their price any sales tax, State registration fees (every year), mandatory insurance (every six months), various maintenance costs, and the price of gas. "But I gotta..." Lucky me, I don't own a car (not one in the last decade) and am a five - minute bus ride from a light rail system that gets me to within three blocks' walking distance to Caboose Hobbies in nine minutes time. It wasn't always that way, but transportation system progress caught up with my needs. Yes, I'm lucky...I say again.   And the greatest bargain - hunting tool is this thing you are reading this message on right now. The five - cent cigar is gone. There are relatively good bargains out there. I used to haunt train shows for vintage kits I could resuurect with today's technology, like one NYC station/baggage shed I got years ago. Sue me! I got fresh wood stock for dried out old pieces. If the wood shape wasn't available, go to plastic. If you add more underbody detail to an old kit that it did not originally have, what's the problem?   Long ago I heard N scalers were less enthused about kits and more into RTR. I think my source was right. Well, there is a lot of that today in HO, and that drives the prices up too. But if you cannot or refuse to surf this Internet, you end up paying the price. In the end, it's whatever the modeler wants to do, or not, that loses or gains him/her more.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)                                  Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5945	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

In the great "apples vs. oranges" debate we are having, one thing to remember is that the current models -- whereever they are made -- have very different characteristics than the old HO models we gravitate to. Modern locos (and cars) have exceptional levels of detail and excellent running characteristics (for the most part) and the locos are nearly all DCC equipped or DCC compatible. For me, and apparently for others on this list, the interest is in the "feel" and operating characteristics of a heavy metal loco with a big open frame motor pulling cars that were made by hand by someone. It is a completely different hobby. Not incompatible, but just different. In a selfish way, I am glad that the new equipment has pulled so many buyers over to it -- I can buy old (1950s and 60s) brass and die-cast locos for very reasonable prices. If I want, I can remotor them and add DCC, and have the fun of doing it. But not everyone enjoys building and fussing with motors and wires and all that. Just my $0.02 worth. And to all the discussion on resin vs. injection molded plastic -- having once helped a friend make some resin kits I can say that it is labor intensive, the rate of "waste" is high, and the odor gets to you after a while. Matt

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5946	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Chuck OK it does not look like a lot just two  to three hundred precent, it is rough when your income has not risen two to three hundred precent in the same time so I am sorry yes it is very expensive. This from another Chuck. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:14:43 -0700 I noticed some comments about cost of new HO, especially plastic, and thought it might be interesting to factor in inflation in some examples.   http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm is the site I used for the dollar converter for converting a retail price "then" to "now".   Globe dummy diesel, 1957: 0.98 then, 7.49 now   Athearn streamlined vista dome. 1962: 5.00 then, 35.18 now   Athearn Budd car, HI-F powered, 1968: 8.00 then, 49.52 now   Athearn F unit, powered, geared, 1961 9.00 then, 55.71 now   Varney box car, stamped steel, 1949 3.00 then, 26.38 now   Varney box car, plastic, 1953 2.00 then, 15.87 now   Varney 2400K Berkshire, 1950 41.95 then, 376.80 now   Varney Aerotrain set (loco, two coaches, observation, track), 1956 19.95 then, 157.13 now   International Models, Inc., C&O 2-6-6-6 brass steam locomotive, 1965 (estimated) 139.50 then, 943.77 now   International Models, Inc. (or Akane), B&O 2-8-2, 1965 (estimated) 34.95 then, 236.45 now   All of the following are all from Carmen Webster's 1953 "Handbook and Catalog for HO Railroaders"...   Lindsay ALCO PA A unit, dual powered, 1953 34.50 then, 273.77 now   Hobbytown E7 A unit, dual powered, 1953 33.50 then, 265.83 now   Varney F3 A unit, dual powered powered, 1953 28.95 then 229.73 now   Walthers EMC Gas Electric ("shuttle-Jack"), 1953 21.95 then, 229.73   Box cars, various manufacturers, 1953 2.50 then 20.63 now - Athearn 2.65 then 21.03 now - Globe 2.70 then 21.43 now - MDC 3.00 then 23.81 now - Varney 3.50 then 27.77 now - Mantua   Streamlined observation car, painted and lettered, various manufacturers, 1953 3.95 then, 31.34 now - Varney 5.95 then, 47.92 now -Blue Line 6.95 then, 55.18 now - American R. R. Models   Streamlined observation car, NOT painted and lettered, various manufacturers, 1953 2.45 then, 19.44 now - Chester 3.75 then, 29.76 now - Sampson 4.50 then, 35.71 now - Kasiner 6.50 then, 51.58 now - Rail Chief 6.95 then, 55.15 now - American Model Toy   Mikado 2-8-2 steam engine kits, various manufacturers, 1953: 19.95 then, 158.31 now - English 27.95 then, 221.79 now - Mantua 34.50 then, 273.77 now - Penn Line   #6 switch, assembled (fiber ties in most cases), various manufacturers, 1953: 1.75 then, 13.89 now - Trackmaster 1.95 then, 15.47 now - Atlas 1.95 then, 15.47 now - Mantua 2.85 then, 22.62 now - Tru-Scale   I'm not so sure the "good old days" are all that much different than the "good new days" overall when it comes to price.  And you tend to get much more in quality and detail today.   I do think the Con Cor Aerotrain offerings, etc, seem a bit pricey.  But they will likely come available for much less after awhile because, after the bloom is off the rose, there are usually too few dollars chasing such things.   When it comes to Chinese manufacturing, well, business is business.  I can't fault businesses for doing that to control costs as an alternative to going out of business to those who do manufacturer in China or wherever.  You see, it seems that while many people grouse about Chinese goods, they also have bought boatloads of them.   Regarding craftsman kits:  For the most part, I think there are more opportunities to buy craftsman kits on ebay than you ever had walking into your neighborhood hobby shop.  So you can buy plenty and not build them.  Thanks to the folks in the past that bought them, but didn't build them.   Chuck Kinzer -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5947	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Yes I too lived in the 70s and 80s and that was indeed the best time to buy HO equipment in fact it is when everythin started getting new motors which allowed the locomotive to ease into a load like a Prototype and was hyped as close to Proto as it could be everything started to increase in price, and I mean everthing from the models to the connectors on assembling the track, it seemed like when one person raised the price everyone had to jump up to try to match them. Heaven Fordi they could sell an engine to someone for less than someone else, just nobody would buy the cheap thing(except me). And it is really expensive to keep using the same molds for all of those railraod buildings for forty or fifty years, the upkeep of bringing them off the shelves to make another run is just so exhausting, I am geting tired just thinking about, excues my French A**holes, sorry just got my DANDER' UP. Charlie Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cnj999 <jbortle@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Is the new HO really that expensive? > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 00:04:05 -0000 > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote: > > > > I noticed some comments about cost of new HO, especially plastic, and > thought it might be interesting to factor in inflation in some examples. > > > > http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm is the site I > used for the dollar converter for converting a retail price "then" > to "now". > > Chuck, I've got to say that such a comparison tends to be rather > misleading. Model trains are bought with disposable income and are in > the same category as TVs, computers, and countless other similar items. > These are considered more or less "Luxuries" and their pricing > generally changes with time at a decidedly slower rate than > the "Necessities" that common inflation figures are based on, the so- > called "market basket." Perhaps a more meaningful figure might be found > through a comparison of hobby pricing vs. mean worker (not household) > income over the years. It would certainly be interesting anyway. > > Likewise, having been around in the 1950's myself and knowing how folks > looked upon say a $50 bill, I can vouch to the fact that a $41 Varney > locomotive was not looked upon by hobbyists then as being as expensive > as a $375 engine today. > > If one looks into the history of pricing trends displayed in model > railroading over the course of many years, it becomes apparent that > much of the sharp price increases in our hobby have come fairly > recently. The cause can be traced to several changing factors and, I'm > afraid, ones only likely to escalate in the future. Perhaps the most > influential of these are that the hobby's size is steadily contracting > and its membership aging. At the same time, manufacturers have gone to > increasingly limited runs to force more immediate buying (stocking of > items is not part of a modern business plan). To be sure, there are > others and we really haven't yet seen how the latest increases in oil > pricing will factor into the cost of imported models. > > Having been active through most of the hobby's post war period, in my > opinion during the 1970's and 80's the average hobbyist's dollar bought > more than during any other interval and certainly more than today. > > CNJ999 > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5948	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Dave I think Resin is actually more actual hands on in manufacture so it would probably only go up in price and it is kinda delicate for the accessories but  they are nice indeed Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Is the new HO really that expensive? Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:11:24 EDT Hi Chuck: Regarding your last comment about oil being a part of the plastic making process. True enough, but perhaps we would be better off if mfrs went to resin instead of plastic. I have several resin models, and once painted, you can't tell the difference. Actually, resin bodies are a bit thicker and more resilient than some of the plastics used today. Today, resin is a bit more expensive, but if it were applied to the mass market, it might be cheaper in the long run....and either way, it might be a less expensive alternative. Just my 2 cents. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5949	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Well, average income has certainly risen more than two or three hundred percent since the fifties and sixties.  And for a particular individual, the normal expectation would be that they start off below the average and end up above the average over time.  Of course, that may not be the case for a particular individual.    I can say that the current tax(es) bite, both overt and hidden, percentage-wise, has risen more than the percentage increase of wages, household earnings, inflation, available expendable income, or by almost any other measure.  Liability and various insurance is probably a close second.  So if anyone wants a bogeyman to rail against, I suggest the various levels of governments are a better target than model railroad manufacturers.   Chuck Kinzer       ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Chuck OK it does not look like a lot just two  to three hundred precent, it is rough when your income has not risen two to three hundred precent in the same time so I am sorry yes it is very expensive. This from another Chuck. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@att. net To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:14:43 -0700 I noticed some comments about cost of new HO, especially plastic, and thought it might be interesting to factor in inflation in some examples.   http://www.dollarti mes.com/calculat ors/inflation. htm is the site I used for the dollar converter for converting a retail price "then" to "now".   Globe dummy diesel, 1957: 0.98 then, 7.49 now   Athearn streamlined vista dome. 1962: 5.00 then, 35.18 now   Athearn Budd car, HI-F powered, 1968: 8.00 then, 49.52 now   Athearn F unit, powered, geared, 1961 9.00 then, 55.71 now   Varney box car, stamped steel, 1949 3.00 then, 26.38 now   Varney box car, plastic, 1953 2.00 then, 15.87 now   Varney 2400K Berkshire, 1950 41.95 then, 376.80 now   Varney Aerotrain set (loco, two coaches, observation, track), 1956 19.95 then, 157.13 now   International Models, Inc., C&O 2-6-6-6 brass steam locomotive, 1965 (estimated) 139.50 then, 943.77 now   International Models, Inc. (or Akane), B&O 2-8-2, 1965 (estimated) 34.95 then, 236.45 now   All of the following are all from Carmen Webster's 1953 "Handbook and Catalog for HO Railroaders" ...   Lindsay ALCO PA A unit, dual powered, 1953 34.50 then, 273.77 now   Hobbytown E7 A unit, dual powered, 1953 33.50 then, 265.83 now   Varney F3 A unit, dual powered powered, 1953 28.95 then 229.73 now   Walthers EMC Gas Electric ("shuttle-Jack" ), 1953 21.95 then, 229.73   Box cars, various manufacturers, 1953 2.50 then 20.63 now - Athearn 2.65 then 21.03 now - Globe 2.70 then 21.43 now - MDC 3.00 then 23.81 now - Varney 3.50 then 27.77 now - Mantua   Streamlined observation car, painted and lettered, various manufacturers, 1953 3.95 then, 31.34 now - Varney 5.95 then, 47.92 now -Blue Line 6.95 then, 55.18 now - American R. R. Models   Streamlined observation car, NOT painted and lettered, various manufacturers, 1953 2.45 then, 19.44 now - Chester 3.75 then, 29.76 now - Sampson 4.50 then, 35.71 now - Kasiner 6.50 then, 51.58 now - Rail Chief 6.95 then, 55.15 now - American Model Toy   Mikado 2-8-2 steam engine kits, various manufacturers, 1953: 19.95 then, 158.31 now - English 27.95 then, 221.79 now - Mantua 34.50 then, 273.77 now - Penn Line   #6 switch, assembled (fiber ties in most cases), various manufacturers, 1953: 1.75 then, 13.89 now - Trackmaster 1.95 then, 15.47 now - Atlas 1.95 then, 15.47 now - Mantua 2.85 then, 22.62 now - Tru-Scale   I'm not so sure the "good old days" are all that much different than the "good new days" overall when it comes to price.  And you tend to get much more in quality and detail today.   I do think the Con Cor Aerotrain offerings, etc, seem a bit pricey.  But they will likely come available for much less after awhile because, after the bloom is off the rose, there are usually too few dollars chasing such things.   When it comes to Chinese manufacturing, well, business is business.  I can't fault businesses for doing that to control costs as an alternative to going out of business to those who do manufacturer in China or wherever.  You see, it seems that while many people grouse about Chinese goods, they also have bought boatloads of them.   Regarding craftsman kits:  For the most part, I think there are more opportunities to buy craftsman kits on ebay than you ever had walking into your neighborhood hobby shop.  So you can buy plenty and not build them.  Thanks to the folks in the past that bought them, but didn't build them.   Chuck Kinzer -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5950	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Hi Chuck K: Thanks for the comments, statistics and figures. Something still doesn't sound right though..... Regarding complaints about the prices of Chinese products, factor in this: Prior to all of the US mfrs moving train production to China - and up until about 10 years ago, a lot of this stuff was made in Japan, Singapore, and Mayasia. Even with the "off shoring", the prices were still reasonable, and most folks could afford them. What happened? Aside from "some" inflation, and a lousy dollar exchange rate which has just come into public view in only the last few years, something appears to be badly skewed in todays pricing, and more than anything, where the model trains are concerned. Not sure what planet you live on, or how long you have been in the hobby, but the prices of some of these models have literally skyrocketed to where a lot of folks are simply being priced out of the hobby entirely. We all understand that prices DO rise for whatever reason, but these costs have risen astronomically, compared to other items, including a lot of non-train hobby items. Personally, I am of the belief that the importers (Walthers, for example, and Athearn, for another) are out for the profit margin, and to them, that's all that matters. This is particularly true when you consider that Walthers and Horizon most likely had to assume large debt in order to acquire their mfrs (not to mention that Athearn expanded too rapidly with its Genises line, and then on top of that, moved in N scale which probably compounded their financial problems, at a time when they were already in poor shape). Having said all of that, note that Model Power, IHC and some of the other importers have raised their prices somewhat, but nothing on the order of what we are seeing today with the mainlines guys. I think a lot of this is pure profit, wherein these mfrs are seeking to make 200% or even 300% profit on their products (why else would Athearn "revalue" their Genises line, such as they did a few years back after they initially released it? Or, to put it another way, "why" has the price of the Life Like P1K/P2K literally more than "doubled" since Walthers acquired it???). Same product, same specs -- nothing is different. Each "new" product is often a re-release of a previous release -- at a "new" and higher price. It is true that some of this is cyclical, but I am loathe to believe all of it is. When I visited the Rivarossi plant in Como, Italy many years back,. the production manager showed me the Riva E-8 powered diesel. He said at the time (1980) that it cost them $6.00 to produce it. In similar fashion, it sold in the US for around $25.00 (depending on where you purchased it, as I had also seen them for as low as $13.00 at Woolco in Indiana. That was still more than 100% profit (and AHM, the importer STILL went bankrupt!). Point is, no one minds someone making a little profit here and there, but I think the gist of what folks are saying is that they feel like they are being abused and taken advantage of. This echoes on many lists besides this one. "Someone" is buying these high priced products, but I doubt that it is the rank-and-file modelers on a working mans salary. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5951	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Hi Charlie: Could be that you are correct. I have no experience with resin, except for pre-manufactured models that I have purchased. I am happy with them, and they aren't too bad. Thanks, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5952	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

OK, we've had our say, this thread is starting to get repetitive.   I think we mostly agree that today's products are overpriced, and that the vintage pieces we get today are better values, regardless of what they sold for new.   Let's let the thread die.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Hi Chuck K: Thanks for the comments, statistics and figures. Something still doesn't sound right though..... Regarding complaints about the prices of Chinese products, factor in this: (text deleted)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5953	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

I've been model railroading since the late fifties and toy training since the early fifties.   Are manufacturers "out for the profit margin"?  I certainly hope so.  Or they won't be in business long.  And if they have shareholders, they just may find themselves sued otherwise.  Of course, profit margin is only part of the equation, volume is the other key part.  Charity by underpricing or giving away your product is not typically part of the equation for a business plan.   Now, about profit.  You said an item a manufacturer told you took $6.00 to produce and sold for $13 dollars is "more than 100% profit".  To that I must say balderdash!  That would be true if that manufacturer handed you one of the things and you forked over $13 on the spot.  (But even then, the guy may not have figured in all of their overhead costs or other "burdened" costs).  But it had to get packaged, get shipped, go to a distributor with their markup, perhaps to a dealer with their markup.  And, of course, more shipping and handling all the way.  There was probably advertising involved (more costs).  There is probably some stocking of spare parts (more costs).  There is probably some percentage of inventory that doesn't sell well (more costs when it has to go a "dumped" prices).  There are salaries of everybody along the way.  Facilities expenses of everybody along the way.  Taxes.  Insurance costs.  I could go on and on because I have worked in the business world for decades.  There is NO way there was "more than 100% profit".  Impossible.   Why has a price doubled, if it has.  I don't know.  It could be a "what the market will bear" reason.  It could have been unprofitable at the prior price point and the increase was needed as an alternative to just dropping it.  Without better information about the actual financials involved with both the company and product, I couldn't say.  I could not assume "pure profit", however (as if there even is such a thing - if there is - tell me who is getting it because I want to invest).   Regarding any company's debt load:  Again, I don't know unless I see their financial statements.  There are many ways a deal can be structured to manage a debt load, however.  I have a strong suspicion that none of the hobby manufacturers or distributors are getting fabulously wealthy.  If you have information to the contrary, let me know.    Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Hi Chuck K: Thanks for the comments, statistics and figures. Something still doesn't sound right though..... Regarding complaints about the prices of Chinese products, factor in this: Prior to all of the US mfrs moving train production to China - and up until about 10 years ago, a lot of this stuff was made in Japan, Singapore, and Mayasia. Even with the "off shoring", the prices were still reasonable, and most folks could afford them. What happened? Aside from "some" inflation, and a lousy dollar exchange rate which has just come into public view in only the last few years, something appears to be badly skewed in todays pricing, and more than anything, where the model trains are concerned. Not sure what planet you live on, or how long you have been in the hobby, but the prices of some of these models have literally skyrocketed to where a lot of folks are simply being priced out of the hobby entirely. We all understand that prices DO rise for whatever reason, but these costs have risen astronomically, compared to other items, including a lot of non-train hobby items. Personally, I am of the belief that the importers (Walthers, for example, and Athearn, for another) are out for the profit margin, and to them, that's all that matters. This is particularly true when you consider that Walthers and Horizon most likely had to assume large debt in order to acquire their mfrs (not to mention that Athearn expanded too rapidly with its Genises line, and then on top of that, moved in N scale which probably compounded their financial problems, at a time when they were already in poor shape). Having said all of that, note that Model Power, IHC and some of the other importers have raised their prices somewhat, but nothing on the order of what we are seeing today with the mainlines guys. I think a lot of this is pure profit, wherein these mfrs are seeking to make 200% or even 300% profit on their products (why else would Athearn "revalue" their Genises line, such as they did a few years back after they initially released it? Or, to put it another way, "why" has the price of the Life Like P1K/P2K literally more than "doubled" since Walthers acquired it???). Same product, same specs -- nothing is different. Each "new" product is often a re-release of a previous release -- at a "new" and higher price. It is true that some of this is cyclical, but I am loathe to believe all of it is. When I visited the Rivarossi plant in Como, Italy many years back,. the production manager showed me the Riva E-8 powered diesel. He said at the time (1980) that it cost them $6.00 to produce it. In similar fashion, it sold in the US for around $25.00 (depending on where you purchased it, as I had also seen them for as low as $13.00 at Woolco in Indiana. That was still more than 100% profit (and AHM, the importer STILL went bankrupt!). Point is, no one minds someone making a little profit here and there, but I think the gist of what folks are saying is that they feel like they are being abused and taken advantage of. This echoes on many lists besides this one. "Someone" is buying these high priced products, but I doubt that it is the rank-and-file modelers on a working mans salary. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15? ncid=aolhom00030 000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5954	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

WK2SHR@... wrote: > > Having said all of that, note that Model Power, IHC and some of the > other importers have raised their prices somewhat, but nothing on the > order of what we are seeing today with the mainlines guys. I think a > lot of this is pure profit, wherein these mfrs are seeking to make 200% > or even 300% profit on their products. I previously mentioned that Accurail still has reasonable prices. Looking at both their web site (where you can order direct) and Walther's web site it appears to me that their prices have hardly changed at all in the past several years. Prices are still around $11-14 for standard boxcar or hopper car kits. And I believe (not sure) that they are still manufactured in the US. On comment on their web site mentions they are a factory and don't have a staff of sales people to sit at phones taking orders. For the record, I have no financial interest in Accurail, and I generally avoid plastic anyway. I like the wood and metal of the old kits like Ambroid, Central Valley and Silver Streak. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "In America the young are always ready to give to those who are older than themselves the full benefits of their inexperience." -Oscar Wilde

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5955	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Don:   Sorry.  I sent one last one before I saw yours that came in when I was composing and sending.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? OK, we've had our say, this thread is starting to get repetitive.   I think we mostly agree that today's products are overpriced, and that the vintage pieces we get today are better values, regardless of what they sold for new.   Let's let the thread die.   Don   don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY     ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Hi Chuck K: Thanks for the comments, statistics and figures. Something still doesn't sound right though..... Regarding complaints about the prices of Chinese products, factor in this: (text deleted)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5956	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

I wasn't singling out your message, it just seemed an appropiate place to jump in, everything that needed to be said seems to have been said.   If we go much further we're beating a dead horse.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Don:   Sorry.  I sent one last one before I saw yours that came in when I was composing and sending.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? OK, we've had our say, this thread is starting to get repetitive.   I think we mostly agree that today's products are overpriced, and that the vintage pieces we get today are better values, regardless of what they sold for new.   Let's let the thread die.   Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5957	From: Martin Rosenfeld	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

On 04:09 pm WK2SHR@... wrote: > Personally, I am > of the belief that the importers (Walthers, for example, and Athearn, > for > another) are out for the profit margin, and to them, that's all that > matters. For what other reason would a person, company, corporation be in business if not for profit. If the costs of doing business rise, prices will rise until not enough people buy anymore. Then either prices will fall or the company will. The basic laws of economics are as strong as the law of gravity. Martin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5958	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Limited Edition Passenger Car follow-up

"Someone" on the list: A few weeks ago, I put out a call for a (sample) of a Limited Edition passenger car. Someone responded, and offered to send me one for the price of the postage. I forgot who it was, but if you are still on the list, drop me a note off list. I'd like to follow up.....still need the car(s). Many thanks, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5959	From: AL	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: prices

Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - Baloney ! his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want rtr, and should have a CHOICE. and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to assemble it ???? when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25-30.00 pricetag. For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) ... Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and we'll all be happy. as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) ~AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5960	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/26/2008
Subject: Vintage HO and DCC -- was: Re: prices

Al, I don't know if you were responding directly to my comments about Apples, Oranges, and all the rest, but you brought up a point I have been looking at since I joined this list. Perhaps I am the odd duck on this list, but I do like DCC and have been enjoying adding it to my older brass locos. Admittedly, in my brass locos I replace the old Japanese open frame motors with can motors and they work great. But I have also been experimenting with using high-amp (1.5 or better) decoders with some of my old GHC/Aristo Craft die cast locos and leaving the original motor in place. All I do is put some tape under the motor to isolate it from the frame and use a nylon screw to replace the metal one and then solder the motor leads to the brush leads. It works, oddly enough, and there is a distinct improvement in slow speed control. Since this list is about operating vintage locos and equipment I thought that this might be something some others have tried. However, I have only done two locos so I am no expert. Has anyone else violated the sanctity of the "true vintage HO" and added DCC directly to an existing vintage chassis and motor? Just curious and reply off list if you think it is off topic. Thanks Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "AL" <Sailordoode@...> wrote: > > > Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. > > Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and > he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - > Baloney ! > > his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as > modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want > rtr, and should have a CHOICE. > > and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 > kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to > assemble it ???? > > when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about > 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a > couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. > Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check > now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, > but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing > and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . > And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what > irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power > everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old > days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known > to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( > same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, > WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he > can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had > those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so > for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25-30.00 > pricetag. > For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is > great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were > .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time > on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does > Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann > can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 > ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) > ... > Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? > they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... > > And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / > clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of > sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . > > as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin > caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) > many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man > operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what > the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and > we'll all be happy. > > as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can > get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just > starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might > as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) > > ~AL >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5961	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC

mmattjcoleman wrote: > Al, > > I don't know if you were responding directly to my comments about > Apples, Oranges, and all the rest, but you brought up a point I have > been looking at since I joined this list. > > Perhaps I am the odd duck on this list, but I do like DCC and have > been enjoying adding it to my older brass locos. Admittedly, in my > brass locos I replace the old Japanese open frame motors with can > motors and they work great. But I have also been experimenting with > using high-amp (1.5 or better) decoders with some of my old GHC/Aristo > Craft die cast locos and leaving the original motor in place. All I do > is put some tape under the motor to isolate it from the frame and use > a nylon screw to replace the metal one and then solder the motor leads > to the brush leads. > > It works, oddly enough, and there is a distinct improvement in slow > speed control. Since this list is about operating vintage locos and > equipment I thought that this might be something some others have > tried. However, I have only done two locos so I am no expert. > > Has anyone else violated the sanctity of the "true vintage HO" and > added DCC directly to an existing vintage chassis and motor? > > Just curious and reply off list if you think it is off topic. > > Thanks > Matt > > Hi Matt, I am doing exactly this... with mixed results . First, I feel uncomfortable ripping out the original open frame motor that runs ok - and often has only seen a fe minutes of operation - from an nicely preserved locomotive, bras or other -- then I know that any conversion may be opeining a bag of snakes as mostly there are unexpected problems - clearance, shaft diameter, RPM , torque may mismatch... and its alot of work and expense I rather invest elsewhere. Now for my success, and setbacks: My standard decoder until last year was Lenz Gold/ Silver. It is rated 1.5 AMP which is sufficient for most applications. HOWEVER I found that the limit is not the Amp rating but the heat produced; some locomotives ( I found out when I operated two old, pre flywheel drive Athearn PAs with a fifteen car passenger train, but this applies to many other locos too) will draw enough current when operating on full load to heat the decoder so it either will shut down temporarily or smoke up. I resolved this in the case of the PAs by gluing the decoders to a large piece of copper sheet suspended in the loco, so it acts as a heat sink or radiator. Next problem - which I have not resolved satisfactory until now - is that some decoders smoked up immidiately ( again, Lenz and next ZIMO) even in Locos that performed ok shortly before .This happened with a Rivarossi Krauss Maffei (LENZ) , an ALCO RSD15 (LENZ), an Suydam GN Z1 (ZIMO) and an ALCO C855 ( ZIMO) . In the case of the Rivarossi and the RSD15 I had no further problems after installing a Uhlenbrock interference suspression kit - my friendly hobby shop owner told me some motors send back high frequency waves that may kill decoders. To avoid this I then switched to ZIMO as they have the reputation to be more resistant, and are rated 1.8 A ... now the new trouble with the Z1 and the C855. Will have to try the supression kit on those locos too, did not have time yet. Generally, I found that those huge double shaft KMT motors used in most brass diesels and electrics give most trouble... I consider to replace them with either Athearn or can motors if I find no reliable way to run them on DCC but I am optimistic to keep the motors in most of the staemers I am definitely convinced DCC is the way to go ; I remember how I was fascinated when I saw the first command control units ( Astrac?) in MR fourty years ago - definitely out of reach then but now we can have all this at reasonable price. I think I save a cnsiderable part of the cost of DCC stuff by not having to wire blocks and sidings, and - worst of all - complicates schemes for turnback loops and wyes. We may discuss this at lenght either on or off line. I suggest input of others if this topic is of general interest. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5962	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Weekly (Very Weakly), Withlacoochee River Report

Hi Ya'll, In this weeks report, didn't have much to report, as I was a little busy with family stuff over Easter weekend, and of course, a hectic work week preceding Easter, but you can view the report and see that. Also, there are two new videos for Resurrecting The Dinosaurs, both dealing with stripping and repainting a brass Samhongsa caboose I picked up at a train sale for only $10 bucks, don't you just love getting old stuff for less money? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_1RKbIXKhU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32QR2_vubtQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2td0g-bTlc And for those who are very much into Virtual Model Railroading, heres a couple I uploaded in the last week. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvJJYhDdPE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQXg24bXf3E Gary W Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5963	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

I dunno, I do like my vintage stuff (the better stuff), but not all vintage was/is that good anyway.  When I look at my Varney stuff, I like it, but it doesn't even come close to the P2K kits that I have.  And the P2K rolling stock is light years finer and more detailed AND the prices are about 10 to 20 bucks (21st century prices), compared to the $5 I used to pay for Athearn stuff in the 1960's.  I would say the new stuff is a TRUE bargain.  I know you cannot compare the engineering and heft that my Mantua Sharks have to the new stuff, but my P2K diesels look much better and run beautifully as well.  Consider the $14.95 the Mantua Sharks cost back in the 1950's to the street prices of a P2K GP-9 at about 30 to 40 dollars.  I dunno, I am thinking we are in a NEW Golden Age of Model Railroading.  Maybe the stuff we are running these days will be someone else's Vintage HO in 40 years? Just to add a bit more spice, I mix my vintage stuff with the new stuff on the layout.  Whenever I see my Thomas Philgas tanker go by, I love the way it looks.  Not quite as detailed as the P2K, Red Caboose, or Tichy tankers I have, but it has something about that just "looks right" and it does not look the least bit out of place. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: Sailordoode@... Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:24:23 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] prices Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - Baloney ! his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want rtr, and should have a CHOICE. and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to assemble it ???? when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25-30.00 pricetag. For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) ... Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and we'll all be happy. as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) ~AL In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5964	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC

Gerold, Thanks! that is the kind of info I was looking for. I 'smoked' a decoder on one of my first conversions so I was hesitant to do more but your comment on the heatsink is a great tip. thanks! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > mmattjcoleman wrote: > > Al, > > > > I don't know if you were responding directly to my comments about > > Apples, Oranges, and all the rest, but you brought up a point I have > > been looking at since I joined this list. > > > > Perhaps I am the odd duck on this list, but I do like DCC and have > > been enjoying adding it to my older brass locos. Admittedly, in my > > brass locos I replace the old Japanese open frame motors with can > > motors and they work great. But I have also been experimenting with > > using high-amp (1.5 or better) decoders with some of my old GHC/Aristo > > Craft die cast locos and leaving the original motor in place. All I do > > is put some tape under the motor to isolate it from the frame and use > > a nylon screw to replace the metal one and then solder the motor leads > > to the brush leads. > > > > It works, oddly enough, and there is a distinct improvement in slow > > speed control. Since this list is about operating vintage locos and > > equipment I thought that this might be something some others have > > tried. However, I have only done two locos so I am no expert. > > > > Has anyone else violated the sanctity of the "true vintage HO" and > > added DCC directly to an existing vintage chassis and motor? > > > > Just curious and reply off list if you think it is off topic. > > > > Thanks > > Matt > > > > > Hi Matt, > > I am doing exactly this... with mixed results . First, I feel > uncomfortable ripping out the original open frame motor that runs ok - > and often has only seen a fe minutes of operation - from an nicely > preserved locomotive, bras or other -- then I know that any conversion > may be opeining a bag of snakes as mostly there are unexpected problems > - clearance, shaft diameter, RPM , torque may mismatch... and its alot > of work and expense I rather invest elsewhere. > Now for my success, and setbacks: > > My standard decoder until last year was Lenz Gold/ Silver. It is rated > 1.5 AMP which is sufficient for most applications. > HOWEVER I found that the limit is not the Amp rating but the heat > produced; some locomotives ( I found out when I operated two old, pre > flywheel drive Athearn PAs with a fifteen car passenger train, but this > applies to many other locos too) will draw enough current when operating > on full load to heat the decoder so it either will shut down temporarily > or smoke up. I resolved this in the case of the PAs by gluing the > decoders to a large piece of copper sheet suspended in the loco, so it > acts as a heat sink or radiator. > Next problem - which I have not resolved satisfactory until now - is > that some decoders smoked up immidiately ( again, Lenz and next ZIMO) > even in Locos that performed ok shortly before .This happened with a > Rivarossi Krauss Maffei (LENZ) , an ALCO RSD15 (LENZ), an Suydam GN Z1 > (ZIMO) and an ALCO C855 ( ZIMO) . In the case of the Rivarossi and the > RSD15 I had no further problems after installing a Uhlenbrock > interference suspression kit - my friendly hobby shop owner told me some > motors send back high frequency waves that may kill decoders. To avoid > this I then switched to ZIMO as they have the reputation to be more > resistant, and are rated 1.8 A ... now the new trouble with the Z1 and > the C855. Will have to try the supression kit on those locos too, did > not have time yet. > > Generally, I found that those huge double shaft KMT motors used in most > brass diesels and electrics give most trouble... I consider to replace > them with either Athearn or can motors if I find no reliable way to run > them on DCC but I am optimistic to keep the motors in most of the staemers > > I am definitely convinced DCC is the way to go ; I remember how I was > fascinated when I saw the first command control units ( Astrac?) in MR > fourty years ago - definitely out of reach then but now we can have all > this at reasonable price. I think I save a cnsiderable part of the cost > of DCC stuff by not having to wire blocks and sidings, and - worst of > all - complicates schemes for turnback loops and wyes. > > We may discuss this at lenght either on or off line. I suggest input of > others if this topic is of general interest. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5965	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

"Beauty (and value) is to the eye of the beholder...." John Hagen Milwaukee, WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > > I dunno, I do like my vintage stuff (the better stuff), but not all vintage was/is that good anyway. When I look at my Varney stuff, I like it, but it doesn't even come close to the P2K kits that I have. And the P2K rolling stock is light years finer and more detailed AND the prices are about 10 to 20 bucks (21st century prices), compared to the $5 I used to pay for Athearn stuff in the 1960's. I would say the new stuff is a TRUE bargain. I know you cannot compare the engineering and heft that my Mantua Sharks have to the new stuff, but my P2K diesels look much better and run beautifully as well. Consider the $14.95 the Mantua Sharks cost back in the 1950's to the street prices of a P2K GP-9 at about 30 to 40 dollars. I dunno, I am thinking we are in a NEW Golden Age of Model Railroading. Maybe the stuff we are running these days will be someone else's Vintage HO in 40 years? > > Just to add a bit more spice, I mix my vintage stuff with the new stuff on the layout. Whenever I see my Thomas Philgas tanker go by, I love the way it looks. Not quite as detailed as the P2K, Red Caboose, or Tichy tankers I have, but it has something about that just "looks right" and it does not look the least bit out of place. > > Regards, Vic Bitleris > Raleigh, NC > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: Sailordoode@... > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:24:23 -0500 > Subject: [vintageHO] prices > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. > > > > Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and > > he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - > > Baloney ! > > > > his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as > > modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want > > rtr, and should have a CHOICE. > > > > and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 > > kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to > > assemble it ???? > > > > when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about > > 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a > > couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. > > Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check > > now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, > > but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing > > and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . > > And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what > > irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power > > everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old > > days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known > > to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( > > same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, > > WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he > > can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had > > those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so > > for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25- 30.00 > > pricetag. > > For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is > > great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were > > .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time > > on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does > > Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann > > can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 > > ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) > > ... > > Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55- 60.00 kits ? > > they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... > > > > And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / > > clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of > > sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . > > > > as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin > > caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) > > many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man > > operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what > > the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and > > we'll all be happy. > > > > as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can > > get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just > > starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might > > as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) > > > > ~AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html? ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_realtime_042008 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5966	From: Dst8596587@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC

Matt,   I have installed a number of decoders in 60 era brass steam engines and have had little problems with them. My decoder of choice is the Digitrxax DH 123 which for me has proven to be reliable and is not expensive. If possible I use the original motor. If it is a Pitman I have good sucess in reusing it. Not so in the case of Tenshodo or Ktm motors. The key is testing for amperage draw of the motor prior to installation. Measure in both the stall and normal running configuration. It should be done while installed in the locomotive due to other factors, binds, poor lubrication etc, that may affect  performance. I do not isolate the motor frame from the body as it is a good heat sink. I isolate the brushes from the body which is required. If you have a Tenshodo type motor where the brush cap is sodered to the motor frame then you may have to isolate the motor. However I have found most of these motors have an insulater between the cap and the brush which can be used as the isolation once the solder is removed. My Rivarossi Allegheny has been running on DCC fpr 3 yearws now and is still operating like new. I have installed some can motors in engines as replacement for open frame and am not completly satisfied at the results. This is normally due to the motor rpm and gearing on the locomotive. One other note, I will not install a sound decoder that has the motor combined with it. I use seperate decoders, one for sound, one for the motor control. Don -----Original Message----- From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 2:42 am Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage HO and DCC mmattjcoleman wrote: > Al, > > I don't know if you were responding directly to my comments about > Apples, Oranges, and all the rest, but you brought up a point I have > been looking at since I joined this list. > > Perhaps I am the odd duck on this list, but I do like DCC and have > been enjoying adding it to my older brass locos. Admittedly, in my > brass locos I replace the old Japanese open frame motors with can > motors and they work great. But I have also been experimenting with > using high-amp (1.5 or better) decoders with some of my old GHC/Aristo > Craft die cast locos and leaving the original motor in place. All I do > is put some tape under the motor to isolate it from the frame and use > a nylon screw to replace the metal one and then solder the motor leads > to the brush leads. > > It works, oddly enough, and there is a distinct improvement in slow > speed control. Since this list is about operating vintage locos and > equipment I thought that this might be something some others have > tried. However, I have only done two locos so I am no expert. > > Has anyone else violated the sanctity of the "true vintage HO" and > added DCC directly to an existing vintage chassis and motor? > > Just curious and reply off list if you think it is off topic. > > Thanks > Matt > > Hi Matt, I am doing exactly this... with mixed results . First, I feel uncomfortable ripping out the original open frame motor that runs ok - and often has only seen a fe minutes of operation - from an nicely preserved locomotive, bras or other -- then I know that any conversion may be opeining a bag of snakes as mostly there are unexpected problems - clearance, shaft diameter, RPM , torque may mismatch... and its alot of work and expense I rather invest elsewhere. Now for my success, and setbacks: My standard decoder until last year was Lenz Gold/ Silver. It is rated 1.5 AMP which is sufficient for most applications. HOWEVER I found that the limit is not the Amp rating but the heat produced; some locomotives ( I found out when I operated two old, pre flywheel drive Athearn PAs with a fifteen car passenger train, but this applies to many other locos too) will draw enough current when operating on full load to heat the decoder so it either will shut down temporarily or smoke up. I resolved this in the case of the PAs by gluing the decoders to a large piece of copper sheet suspended in the loco, so it acts as a heat sink or radiator. Next problem - which I have not resolved satisfactory until now - is that some decoders smoked up immidiately ( again, Lenz and next ZIMO) even in Locos that performed ok shortly before .This happened with a Rivarossi Krauss Maffei (LENZ) , an ALCO RSD15 (LENZ), an Suydam GN Z1 (ZIMO) and an ALCO C855 ( ZIMO) . In the case of the Rivarossi and the RSD15 I had no further problems after installing a Uhlenbrock interference suspression kit - my friendly hobby shop owner told me some motors send back high frequency waves that may kill decoders. To avoid this I then switched to ZIMO as they have the reputation to be more resistant, and are rated 1.8 A ... now the new trouble with the Z1 and the C855. Will have to try the supression kit on those locos too, did not have time yet. Generally, I found that those huge double shaft KMT motors used in most brass diesels and electrics give most trouble... I consider to replace them with either Athearn or can motors if I find no reliable way to run them on DCC but I am optimistic to keep the motors in most of the staemers I am definitely convinced DCC is the way to go ; I remember how I was fascinated when I saw the first command control units ( Astrac?) in MR fourty years ago - definitely out of reach then but now we can have all this at reasonable price. I think I save a cnsiderable part of the cost of DCC stuff by not having to wire blocks and sidings, and - worst of all - complicates schemes for turnback loops and wyes. We may discuss this at lenght either on or off line. I suggest input of others if this topic is of general interest. Gerold Supercharge your AIM. Get the AIM toolbar for your browser.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5967	From: erieberk	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Charlie, Chuck and all, Don, not to be repetitive or to beat a dead horse, but I trust you'd allow some bit of further input on this topic that seems to be entirely missed, especially since I hadn't had the chance to comment on this (was too tied up yesterday). Guys, you've got to be kidding if you mean the costs of model railroad items has gone up 200% to 300% since those times when those items that Chuck listed were produced, as it seems is being said. If that's the point of what's trying to be run across us, I suggest you guys re-do the math on this stuff. Averaging out the 34 items that Chuck listed, the increase in prices between these vintage items when they were first msrketed and the prices of these same items today comes out to near 800% over the original cost. To clarify, I'll very briefly go over these same items, with their percentage increases, abbreviating them to shorten the read yet still make it comprehensable when comparing it to the oroginal listing. Globe dummy diesel -- 700% Athearn streamlined vista - 700% Athearn Budd car - 600% Athearn F unit 660% Varney metal box car - 860% Varney plastic box car - 750% Varney Berkshire -- 890% Varney Aerotrain set - 785% IMP C&O Allegheny - 760% IMP (or Akane) - B&O Mike - 675% Lindsay PA - 800% Hobbytown E7 - 800% Varney F-3 Brute - 780% Walthers Gas Electric - 780% Athearn 1953 box car - 800% Globe 1953 box car - 790% MDC 1953 box car - 790% Varney 1953 box car - 760% Mantua 1953 box car - 790% Varney Obs - 775% Blue Line Obs - 800% American Beauty Obs - 785% Chester Obs - 800% Sampson Obs - 800% Kasiner Obs - 775% Rail Chief Obs - 785% American Model Toy Obs - 785% J. English Mikado - 790% Mantua Mike - 730% Penn Line Mike - 785% Trackmaster #6 Switch (turnout) - 740% Atlas #6 switch - 750% Mantua #6 switch - 750% Tru-Scale #6 Switch - 730% By this it can easily be seen that items have risen far above what's affordable to today's modeler when the fact that salaries those days was in the area of about $100, and may not necessarily meet the same equivilent today of $800 take-home -- and affordability today get's even more difficult with a retired person living on a fixed income. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > > ChuckOK it does not look like a lot just two to three hundred precent, > it is rough when your income has not risen two to three hundred precent > in the same time so I am sorry yes it is very expensive.This from another > Chuck.Charlie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ckinzer@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:14:43 -0700 > > I noticed some comments about cost of new HO, especially plastic, and > thought it might be interesting to factor in inflation in some examples. > http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm is the site I used > for the dollar converter for converting a retail price "then" to "now". > Globe dummy diesel, 1957:0.98 then, 7.49 now Athearn streamlined vista > dome. 1962:5.00 then, 35.18 now Athearn Budd car, HI-F powered, 1968:8.00 > then, 49.52 now Athearn F unit, powered, geared, 19619.00 then, 55.71 now > Varney box car, stamped steel, 19493.00 then, 26.38 now Varney box car, > plastic, 19532.00 then, 15.87 now Varney 2400K Berkshire, 195041.95 then, > 376.80 now Varney Aerotrain set (loco, two coaches, observation, track), > 195619.95 then, 157.13 now International Models, Inc., C&O 2-6-6-6 brass > steam locomotive, 1965 (estimated)139.50 then, 943.77 now International > Models, Inc. (or Akane), B&O 2-8-2, 1965 (estimated)34.95 then, 236.45 > now All of the following are all from Carmen Webster's 1953 "Handbook and > Catalog for HO Railroaders"... Lindsay ALCO PA A unit, dual powered, 195334.50 > then, 273.77 now Hobbytown E7 A unit, dual powered, 195333.50 then, > 265.83 now Varney F3 A unit, dual powered powered, 195328.95 then 229.73 > now Walthers EMC Gas Electric ("shuttle-Jack"), 195321.95 then, 229.73 > Box cars, various manufacturers, 19532.50 then 20.63 now - Athearn2.65 > then 21.03 now - Globe2.70 then 21.43 now - MDC3.00 then 23.81 now - > Varney3.50 then 27.77 now - Mantua Streamlined observation car, painted > and lettered, various manufacturers, 19533.95 then, 31.34 now - Varney5.95 > then, 47.92 now -Blue Line6.95 then, 55.18 now - American R. R. Models > Streamlined observation car, NOT painted and lettered, various > manufacturers, 19532.45 then, 19.44 now - Chester3.75 then, 29.76 now > - Sampson4.50 then, 35.71 now - Kasiner6.50 then, 51.58 now - Rail Chief6.95 > then, 55.15 now - American Model Toy Mikado 2-8-2 steam engine kits, > various manufacturers, 1953:19.95 then, 158.31 now - English27.95 then, > 221.79 now - Mantua34.50 then, 273.77 now - Penn Line #6 switch, > assembled (fiber ties in most cases), various manufacturers, 1953:1.75 > then, 13.89 now - Trackmaster1.95 then, 15.47 now - Atlas1.95 then, 15.47 > now - Mantua2.85 then, 22.62 now - Tru-Scale I'm not so sure the "good > old days" are all that much different than the "good new days" overall > when it comes to price. And you tend to get much more in quality and > detail today. I do think the Con Cor Aerotrain offerings, etc, seem a bit > pricey. But they will likely come available for much less after awhile > because, after the bloom is off the rose, there are usually too few > dollars chasing such things. When it comes to Chinese manufacturing, > well, business is business. I can't fault businesses for doing that to > control costs as an alternative to going out of business to those who do > manufacturer in China or wherever. You see, it seems that while many > people grouse about Chinese goods, they also have bought boatloads of > them. Regarding craftsman kits: For the most part, I think there are > more opportunities to buy craftsman kits on ebay than you ever had > walking into your neighborhood hobby shop. So you can buy plenty and not > build them. Thanks to the folks in the past that bought them, but didn't > build them. Chuck Kinzer > > -- > Want an e-mail address like mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5968	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC

The main problem I had when I tried DCC was getting into hermetically sealed Vanderbilt tenders.  So often I would use an N or even Z decoder to fit in the cab.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Dst8596587@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage HO and DCC Matt,   I have installed a number of decoders in 60 era brass steam engines and have had little problems with them. My decoder of choice is the Digitrxax DH 123 which for me has proven to be reliable and is not expensive. If possible I use the original motor. If it is a Pitman I have good sucess in reusing it. Not so in the case of Tenshodo or Ktm motors. The key is testing for amperage draw of the motor prior to installation. Measure in both the stall and normal running configuration. It should be done while installed in the locomotive due to other factors, binds, poor lubrication etc, that may affect  performance. I do not isolate the motor frame from the body as it is a good heat sink. I isolate the brushes from the body which is required. If you have a Tenshodo type motor where the brush cap is sodered to the motor frame then you may have to isolate the motor. However I have found most of these motors have an insulater between the cap and the brush which can be used as the isolation once the solder is removed. My Rivarossi Allegheny has been running on DCC fpr 3 yearws now and is still operating like new. I have installed some can motors in engines as replacement for open frame and am not completly satisfied at the results. This is normally due to the motor rpm and gearing on the locomotive. One other note, I will not install a sound decoder that has the motor combined with it. I use seperate decoders, one for sound, one for the motor control. Don -----Original Message----- From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 2:42 am Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage HO and DCC mmattjcoleman wrote: > Al, > > I don't know if you were responding directly to my comments about > Apples, Oranges, and all the rest, but you brought up a point I have > been looking at since I joined this list. > > Perhaps I am the odd duck on this list, but I do like DCC and have > been enjoying adding it to my older brass locos. Admittedly, in my > brass locos I replace the old Japanese open frame motors with can > motors and they work great. But I have also been experimenting with > using high-amp (1.5 or better) decoders with some of my old GHC/Aristo > Craft die cast locos and leaving the original motor in place. All I do > is put some tape under the motor to isolate it from the frame and use > a nylon screw to replace the metal one and then solder the motor leads > to the brush leads. > > It works, oddly enough, and there is a distinct improvement in slow > speed control. Since this list is about operating vintage locos and > equipment I thought that this might be something some others have > tried. However, I have only done two locos so I am no expert. > > Has anyone else violated the sanctity of the "true vintage HO" and > added DCC directly to an existing vintage chassis and motor? > > Just curious and reply off list if you think it is off topic. > > Thanks > Matt > > Hi Matt, I am doing exactly this... with mixed results . First, I feel uncomfortable ripping out the original open frame motor that runs ok - and often has only seen a fe minutes of operation - from an nicely preserved locomotive, bras or other -- then I know that any conversion may be opeining a bag of snakes as mostly there are unexpected problems - clearance, shaft diameter, RPM , torque may mismatch... and its alot of work and expense I rather invest elsewhere. Now for my success, and setbacks: My standard decoder until last year was Lenz Gold/ Silver. It is rated 1.5 AMP which is sufficient for most applications. HOWEVER I found that the limit is not the Amp rating but the heat produced; some locomotives ( I found out when I operated two old, pre flywheel drive Athearn PAs with a fifteen car passenger train, but this applies to many other locos too) will draw enough current when operating on full load to heat the decoder so it either will shut down temporarily or smoke up. I resolved this in the case of the PAs by gluing the decoders to a large piece of copper sheet suspended in the loco, so it acts as a heat sink or radiator. Next problem - which I have not resolved satisfactory until now - is that some decoders smoked up immidiately ( again, Lenz and next ZIMO) even in Locos that performed ok shortly before .This happened with a Rivarossi Krauss Maffei (LENZ) , an ALCO RSD15 (LENZ), an Suydam GN Z1 (ZIMO) and an ALCO C855 ( ZIMO) . In the case of the Rivarossi and the RSD15 I had no further problems after installing a Uhlenbrock interference suspression kit - my friendly hobby shop owner told me some motors send back high frequency waves that may kill decoders. To avoid this I then switched to ZIMO as they have the reputation to be more resistant, and are rated 1.8 A ... now the new trouble with the Z1 and the C855. Will have to try the supression kit on those locos too, did not have time yet. Generally, I found that those huge double shaft KMT motors used in most brass diesels and electrics give most trouble... I consider to replace them with either Athearn or can motors if I find no reliable way to run them on DCC but I am optimistic to keep the motors in most of the staemers I am definitely convinced DCC is the way to go ; I remember how I was fascinated when I saw the first command control units ( Astrac?) in MR fourty years ago - definitely out of reach then but now we can have all this at reasonable price. I think I save a cnsiderable part of the cost of DCC stuff by not having to wire blocks and sidings, and - worst of all - complicates schemes for turnback loops and wyes. We may discuss this at lenght either on or off line. I suggest input of others if this topic is of general interest. Gerold Supercharge your AIM. Get the AIM toolbar for your browser.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5969	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

Victor, Just yesterday I saw the new Walthers ad for the P2K GP7/9's....... They are now about $250 for DC and $350 for DCC/sound. Now, all new and improved !!! I'm about to dash off and order for several of the old FA/FB powered pairs for about $35 each. I'm sure the new runs of those will be priced like the new P2K GP-7/9's Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote: I dunno, I do like my vintage stuff (the better stuff), but not all vintage was/is that good anyway.  When I look at my Varney stuff, I like it, but it doesn't even come close to the P2K kits that I have.  And the P2K rolling stock is light years finer and more detailed AND the prices are about 10 to 20 bucks (21st century prices), compared to the $5 I used to pay for Athearn stuff in the 1960's.  I would say the new stuff is a TRUE bargain.  I know you cannot compare the engineering and heft that my Mantua Sharks have to the new stuff, but my P2K diesels look much better and run beautifully as well.  Consider the $14.95 the Mantua Sharks cost back in the 1950's to the street prices of a P2K GP-9 at about 30 to 40 dollars.  I dunno, I am thinking we are in a NEW Golden Age of Model Railroading.  Maybe the stuff we are running these days will be someone else's Vintage HO in 40 years?  Just to add a bit more spice, I mix my vintage stuff with the new stuff on the layout.  Whenever I see my Thomas Philgas tanker go by, I love the way it looks.  Not quite as detailed as the P2K, Red Caboose, or Tichy tankers I have, but it has something about that just "looks right" and it does not look the least bit out of place. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: Sailordoode@... Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:24:23 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] prices Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - Baloney ! his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want rtr, and should have a CHOICE. and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to assemble it ???? when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25-30.00 pricetag. For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) ... Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and we'll all be happy. as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) ~AL In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5970	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

At those prices... I still prefer my run-of-the-mill Varney Super Mikado or almost anything else from that vintage...   Sean Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: Victor, Just yesterday I saw the new Walthers ad for the P2K GP7/9's..... .. They are now about $250 for DC and $350 for DCC/sound. Now, all new and improved !!! I'm about to dash off and order for several of the old FA/FB powered pairs for about $35 each. I'm sure the new runs of those will be priced like the new P2K GP-7/9's Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote: I dunno, I do like my vintage stuff (the better stuff), but not all vintage was/is that good anyway.  When I look at my Varney stuff, I like it, but it doesn't even come close to the P2K kits that I have.  And the P2K rolling stock is light years finer and more detailed AND the prices are about 10 to 20 bucks (21st century prices), compared to the $5 I used to pay for Athearn stuff in the 1960's.  I would say the new stuff is a TRUE bargain.  I know you cannot compare the engineering and heft that my Mantua Sharks have to the new stuff, but my P2K diesels look much better and run beautifully as well.  Consider the $14.95 the Mantua Sharks cost back in the 1950's to the street prices of a P2K GP-9 at about 30 to 40 dollars.  I dunno, I am thinking we are in a NEW Golden Age of Model Railroading.  Maybe the stuff we are running these days will be someone else's Vintage HO in 40 years?  Just to add a bit more spice, I mix my vintage stuff with the new stuff on the layout.  Whenever I see my Thomas Philgas tanker go by, I love the way it looks.  Not quite as detailed as the P2K, Red Caboose, or Tichy tankers I have, but it has something about that just "looks right" and it does not look the least bit out of place. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: Sailordoode@ stny.rr.com Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:24:23 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] prices Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - Baloney ! his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want rtr, and should have a CHOICE. and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to assemble it ???? when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25-30.00 pricetag. For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) ... Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and we'll all be happy. as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) ~AL In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5971	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

WOW, that is incredible, I paid $29 for my P2K Seaboard Coast Line Geep.  I also paid about $15 to install a decoder in it for a grand total of $44.  Obviously mine doesn't have sound, but it runs great and looks really nice as well.  I bet you can still get a bunch for about 30 to 50 bucks at train shows and discounters.  Lemme see what eBay has em for......about 30 to 40 bucks.  I wonder why Walthers prices are so high, do they all come with sound? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:39:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] prices Victor, Just yesterday I saw the new Walthers ad for the P2K GP7/9's..... .. They are now about $250 for DC and $350 for DCC/sound. Now, all new and improved !!! I'm about to dash off and order for several of the old FA/FB powered pairs for about $35 each. I'm sure the new runs of those will be priced like the new P2K GP-7/9's Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote: I dunno, I do like my vintage stuff (the better stuff), but not all vintage was/is that good anyway.  When I look at my Varney stuff, I like it, but it doesn't even come close to the P2K kits that I have.  And the P2K rolling stock is light years finer and more detailed AND the prices are about 10 to 20 bucks (21st century prices), compared to the $5 I used to pay for Athearn stuff in the 1960's.  I would say the new stuff is a TRUE bargain.  I know you cannot compare the engineering and heft that my Mantua Sharks have to the new stuff, but my P2K diesels look much better and run beautifully as well.  Consider the $14.95 the Mantua Sharks cost back in the 1950's to the street prices of a P2K GP-9 at about 30 to 40 dollars.  I dunno, I am thinking we are in a NEW Golden Age of Model Railroading.  Maybe the stuff we are running these days will be someone else's Vintage HO in 40 years?  Just to add a bit more spice, I mix my vintage stuff with the new stuff on the layout.  Whenever I see my Thomas Philgas tanker go by, I love the way it looks.  Not quite as detailed as the P2K, Red Caboose, or Tichy tankers I have, but it has something about that just "looks right" and it does not look the least bit out of place. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: Sailordoode@ stny.rr.com Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:24:23 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] prices Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - Baloney ! his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want rtr, and should have a CHOICE. and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to assemble it ???? when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25-30.00 pricetag. For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) ... Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and we'll all be happy. as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) ~AL In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.  Watch “Cause Effect,” a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5972	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

Maybe they come with virus protection. You don't want them to get infected from a connection to your computer controlled DCC system and spread it to a club layout now do you? Imagine all the engines at the club being zombie-like and taking commands from a hacker in China! :-) Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com --- Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > WOW, that is incredible, I paid $29 for my P2K > Seaboard Coast Line Geep. I also paid about $15 to > install a decoder in it for a grand total of $44. > Obviously mine doesn't have sound, but it runs great > and looks really nice as well. I bet you can still > get a bunch for about 30 to 50 bucks at train shows > and discounters. Lemme see what eBay has em > for......about 30 to 40 bucks. I wonder why > Walthers prices are so high, do they all come with > sound? > > Vic Bitleris > Raleigh, NC > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: mwbauers55@... > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:39:38 -0500 > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] prices > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Victor, > Just yesterday I saw the new Walthers ad for the P2K > GP7/9's....... > They are now about $250 for DC and $350 for > DCC/sound. > Now, all new and improved !!! > I'm about to dash off and order for several of the > old FA/FB powered pairs for about $35 each. I'm sure > the new runs of those will be priced like the new > P2K GP-7/9's > Best to Ya,Mike BauersMilwaukee, Wi > On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote:I > dunno, I do like my vintage stuff (the better > stuff), but not all vintage was/is that good anyway. > When I look at my Varney stuff, I like it, but it > doesn't even come close to the P2K kits that I have. > And the P2K rolling stock is light years finer and > more detailed AND the prices are about 10 to 20 > bucks (21st century prices), compared to the $5 I > used to pay for Athearn stuff in the 1960's. I > would say the new stuff is a TRUE bargain. I know > you cannot compare the engineering and heft that my > Mantua Sharks have to the new stuff, but my P2K > diesels look much better and run beautifully as > well. Consider the $14.95 the Mantua Sharks cost > back in the 1950's to the street prices of a P2K > GP-9 at about 30 to 40 dollars. I dunno, I am > thinking we are in a NEW Golden Age of Model > Railroading. Maybe the stuff we are running these > days will be someone else's Vintage HO in 40 years? > > Just to add a bit more spice, I mix my vintage stuff > with the new stuff on the layout. Whenever I see my > Thomas Philgas tanker go by, I love the way it > looks. Not quite as detailed as the P2K, Red > Caboose, or Tichy tankers I have, but it has > something about that just "looks right" and it does > not look the least bit out of place. > > Regards, Vic Bitleris > Raleigh, NC > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: Sailordoode@... > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:24:23 -0500 > Subject: [vintageHO] prices > > > Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. > > Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a > few weeks back - and > he says " you have to compare apples to apples' > regarding new items - > Baloney ! > > his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as > detailed or nice as > modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY > point, we DON"T want > rtr, and should have a CHOICE. > > and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, > so why should a 7.00 > kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was > paid 10 cents to > assemble it ???? > > when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , > Athearn kits ran about > 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I > still have only a > couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. > Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, > did not double check > now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 > now.... ok, inlfation sucks, > but I make (gross) about double what I made in the > 80's ... course housing > and expenses are far greater than double, so less > disposable income . > And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but > the 20-30++++ are what > irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd > players, A/C,power > everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then > order options, like the old > days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with > every bell and whistle known > to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( > same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , > or, say Mantua, > WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller > wants to add those, he > can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the > car than if the rtr had > those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for > wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so > for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', > without the 25-30.00 > pricetag. > For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker > on - vintage is > great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, > lol ) - tyco cars were > .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for > under 2 bucks all the time > on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, > like then ... so why does > Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with > long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann > can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when > Silver Series are 12.00 > ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - > SAME paid for molds ) > ... > Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these > 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? > they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... > > And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's > great for operators / > clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and > drives costs out of > sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as > options, not 'musts' . > > as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( > mentioned), as a resin > caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and > ( at least personally ) > many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due > to most being 1 man > operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters > should sell at ' what > the market will bear' either - they should sell at > realistic prices and > we'll all be happy. > > as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic > 'toy train' items I can > get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage > I can find , and just > starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled > over in my teens, might > as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. > :-) > > ~AL > > > > In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live > Messenger. > > > > > > > > > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5973	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

Hi Guys, It wasn't all that long ago that I got a pair of the P1k F3's in CB&Q for a mere $31.00 plus shipping, off of ebay of course, both still new in the sealed boxes, both still running their original axle gears to, (I haven't cracked those yet, give it time), great runners, well detailed, (every bit as well detailed as the early Stewart F3 units), while these certainly can't be considered vintage units in any stretch of the imagination, they most certainly are vintage in that they are pre Walthers, I believe the Walthers release of this pair retailed for over $200.00..............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:22:08 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] prices WOW, that is incredible, I paid $29 for my P2K Seaboard Coast Line Geep.  I also paid about $15 to install a decoder in it for a grand total of $44.  Obviously mine doesn't have sound, but it runs great and looks really nice as well.  I bet you can still get a bunch for about 30 to 50 bucks at train shows and discounters.  Lemme see what eBay has em for......about 30 to 40 bucks.  I wonder why Walthers prices are so high, do they all come with sound? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: mwbauers55@wi. rr.com Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:39:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] prices Victor, Just yesterday I saw the new Walthers ad for the P2K GP7/9's..... .. They are now about $250 for DC and $350 for DCC/sound. Now, all new and improved !!! I'm about to dash off and order for several of the old FA/FB powered pairs for about $35 each. I'm sure the new runs of those will be priced like the new P2K GP-7/9's Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote: I dunno, I do like my vintage stuff (the better stuff), but not all vintage was/is that good anyway.  When I look at my Varney stuff, I like it, but it doesn't even come close to the P2K kits that I have.  And the P2K rolling stock is light years finer and more detailed AND the prices are about 10 to 20 bucks (21st century prices), compared to the $5 I used to pay for Athearn stuff in the 1960's.  I would say the new stuff is a TRUE bargain.  I know you cannot compare the engineering and heft that my Mantua Sharks have to the new stuff, but my P2K diesels look much better and run beautifully as well.  Consider the $14.95 the Mantua Sharks cost back in the 1950's to the street prices of a P2K GP-9 at about 30 to 40 dollars.  I dunno, I am thinking we are in a NEW Golden Age of Model Railroading.  Maybe the stuff we are running these days will be someone else's Vintage HO in 40 years?  Just to add a bit more spice, I mix my vintage stuff with the new stuff on the layout.  Whenever I see my Thomas Philgas tanker go by, I love the way it looks.  Not quite as detailed as the P2K, Red Caboose, or Tichy tankers I have, but it has something about that just "looks right" and it does not look the least bit out of place. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: Sailordoode@ stny.rr.com Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:24:23 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] prices Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - Baloney ! his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want rtr, and should have a CHOICE. and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to assemble it ???? when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25-30.00 pricetag. For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) ... Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and we'll all be happy. as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) ~AL In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.  Watch “Cause Effect,” a show about real people making a real difference. Learn more. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5974	From: Wobbly913	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

Well that puts them $200 and $300 out of my budget.  That just makes me that much happier with my old HiF Atlhearn stuff which may well run forever. I don't need dcc anyway, I'm used to my old stuff and toooo old to change now.   wobbly913 Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: Victor, Just yesterday I saw the new Walthers ad for the P2K GP7/9's....... They are now about $250 for DC and $350 for DCC/sound. Now, all new and improved !!! I'm about to dash off and order for several of the old FA/FB powered pairs for about $35 each. I'm sure the new runs of those will be priced like the new P2K GP-7/9's Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote: I dunno, I do like my vintage stuff (the better stuff), but not all vintage was/is that good anyway.  When I look at my Varney stuff, I like it, but it doesn't even come close to the P2K kits that I have.  And the P2K rolling stock is light years finer and more detailed AND the prices are about 10 to 20 bucks (21st century prices), compared to the $5 I used to pay for Athearn stuff in the 1960's.  I would say the new stuff is a TRUE bargain.  I know you cannot compare the engineering and heft that my Mantua Sharks have to the new stuff, but my P2K diesels look much better and run beautifully as well.  Consider the $14.95 the Mantua Sharks cost back in the 1950's to the street prices of a P2K GP-9 at about 30 to 40 dollars.  I dunno, I am thinking we are in a NEW Golden Age of Model Railroading.  Maybe the stuff we are running these days will be someone else's Vintage HO in 40 years?  Just to add a bit more spice, I mix my vintage stuff with the new stuff on the layout.  Whenever I see my Thomas Philgas tanker go by, I love the way it looks.  Not quite as detailed as the P2K, Red Caboose, or Tichy tankers I have, but it has something about that just "looks right" and it does not look the least bit out of place. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: Sailordoode@... Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:24:23 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] prices Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - Baloney ! his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want rtr, and should have a CHOICE. and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to assemble it ???? when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25-30.00 pricetag. For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) ... Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and we'll all be happy. as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) ~AL In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5975	From: cnj999	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

Something I don't think all that many hobbyists appreciate, but a fact not lost on the manufacturers, is that today there is an element within the hobby I'd classify as the moneyed elite. For them, the prices of the new locomotives being offered is not even a consideration. You see evidence of them time and time again particularly on the entry level model railroading forums, commenting on their latest mass purchase of high-end items. Many of them seem to be more collectors than modelers, although claiming they are purchasing against the time when they build some grand layout. One example that particularly stuck in my mind was a fellow off-handedly commenting how he had just purchased 6 BLI Big Boys...to go with the dozen he already had! He wasn't blowing smoke either, as his post was accompanied by a photo of them all lined up abreast...on his track-on- plywood layout(!). It doesn't take an enormous number of such folks to sway how the manufacturers price their products for maximum return. With the size of the hobby slowly shrinking, it would appear many of the major manufacturers are loosing interest in the average Joe in favor of catering increasingly to the guys with big bucks (but is that really a surprise?). You'll notice that Atlas is the ONLY major company in more than a two decades to have brought out a line of locos and rolling stock (Trainman) inexpensively priced, obviously with the more average hobbyist in mind. Likewise, the move to RTR or built- ups, which are steadily taking over the marketplace produces a great return. Model railroading has alway been regarded as a hobby whose enthusiasts reveled in their construction skills and creativity. Just where are we headed? Little wonder that nowadays I gain so much pleasure in collecting vintage HO. CNJ999

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5976	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Dave What you said BROTHER...AMEN. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:09:02 EDT Hi Chuck K: Thanks for the comments, statistics and figures. Something still doesn't sound right though..... Regarding complaints about the prices of Chinese products, factor in this: Prior to all of the US mfrs moving train production to China - and up until about 10 years ago, a lot of this stuff was made in Japan, Singapore, and Mayasia. Even with the "off shoring", the prices were still reasonable, and most folks could afford them. What happened? Aside from "some" inflation, and a lousy dollar exchange rate which has just come into public view in only the last few years, something appears to be badly skewed in todays pricing, and more than anything, where the model trains are concerned. Not sure what planet you live on, or how long you have been in the hobby, but the prices of some of these models have literally skyrocketed to where a lot of folks are simply being priced out of the hobby entirely. We all understand that prices DO rise for whatever reason, but these costs have risen astronomically, compared to other items, including a lot of non-train hobby items. Personally, I am of the belief that the importers (Walthers, for example, and Athearn, for another) are out for the profit margin, and to them, that's all that matters. This is particularly true when you consider that Walthers and Horizon most likely had to assume large debt in order to acquire their mfrs (not to mention that Athearn expanded too rapidly with its Genises line, and then on top of that, moved in N scale which probably compounded their financial problems, at a time when they were already in poor shape). Having said all of that, note that Model Power, IHC and some of the other importers have raised their prices somewhat, but nothing on the order of what we are seeing today with the mainlines guys. I think a lot of this is pure profit, wherein these mfrs are seeking to make 200% or even 300% profit on their products (why else would Athearn "revalue" their Genises line, such as they did a few years back after they initially released it? Or, to put it another way, "why" has the price of the Life Like P1K/P2K literally more than "doubled" since Walthers acquired it???). Same product, same specs -- nothing is different. Each "new" product is often a re-release of a previous release -- at a "new" and higher price. It is true that some of this is cyclical, but I am loathe to believe all of it is. When I visited the Rivarossi plant in Como, Italy many years back,. the production manager showed me the Riva E-8 powered diesel. He said at the time (1980) that it cost them $6.00 to produce it. In similar fashion, it sold in the US for around $25.00 (depending on where you purchased it, as I had also seen them for as low as $13.00 at Woolco in Indiana. That was still more than 100% profit (and AHM, the importer STILL went bankrupt!). Point is, no one minds someone making a little profit here and there, but I think the gist of what folks are saying is that they feel like they are being abused and taken advantage of. This echoes on many lists besides this one. "Someone" is buying these high priced products, but I doubt that it is the rank-and-file modelers on a working mans salary. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5977	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: New Thread"Beating Dead Horse"

Well the only good thing about Beating a Dead Horse is it can't Kick you when it gets tired of being beaten. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:21:31 -0600 I wasn't singling out your message, it just seemed an appropiate place to jump in, everything that needed to be said seems to have been said.   If we go much further we're beating a dead horse.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? Don:   Sorry.  I sent one last one before I saw yours that came in when I was composing and sending.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Is the new HO really that expensive? OK, we've had our say, this thread is starting to get repetitive.   I think we mostly agree that today's products are overpriced, and that the vintage pieces we get today are better values, regardless of what they sold for new.   Let's let the thread die.   Don   -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5978	From: Charles Windes	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy

Steve You put it the best way I have heard in along time,,, "IF YOU AIN'T HAVIN FUN WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE." Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 09:18:03 -0700 (PDT) At the club layout, during open houses, "my" area is the lower part of the yard. It's eight tracks, each at least thirty feet long and all have hidden magnets. I can't begin to tell you the amount of fun I have operating that yard. I have about 150 cars that I can shuffle for a five hour session. We don't actually run the trains that I build up, not yet, and there is no particular order the cars have to be in. One session, I put cars together by color. Another I put them together by type and size, all 40' box cars together, then all 50', etc. I even tried to put them together in alphabetical order! I love watching people come over and watch as I couple and uncouple cars. The ask how it's done and I tell them it's magic ... poof! Then I give them the real explanation ... we've had a couple of guys join because they thought it look like great fun. It is, when the cars don't derail and the couplers are working correctly. I've pretty much limited the cars to my own because I know that they run ok and the couplers are the right height. I ran out of ideas at one open house, then had a great idea. I have a file card for each car in the yard. I can deal the cards into eight stacks and go switching from there. That will keep me busy. I'm looking forward to our next open house.   My dad didn't want to change over to knuckle couplers. He had the X2F couplers with their uncoupling ramps. They worked ok most of the time and it was great to see my dad have fun in his own way. He adjusted those couplers like we would the Kadees. He like the X2F's and they worked for him and he had FUN. That's what's important, if you're not having fun, why do it? Those little white plastic uncoupling ramps did the job for him. When I'd go to visit him and take my own equipment, I'd take a couple of Atlas hoppers that I have the AHM Magna-matics on one end. They are the coupler that will mate with either a knuckle coupler or and X2F. We spent a lot of time running our trains together. I so miss those days.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:23 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Kadee's and Vintage Operating -- was:Re: New Guy Just to jump on a point that Don made that good couplers (Kadee or equivalent) are crucial to enjoying the "operational" side of vintage HO. I am old enough to remember HO layouts before Kadee Magnamatics became the de facto standard for HO, most operators had to choose between Mantua couplers, dummy couplers, or some other hook-and-loop arrangement. The X2F was the biggest disappointment to hit the market in the late 50s -- it had a lot of hype, but when it arrived it looked bad and didn't solve the operational problems. As most of the guys on this list will tell you, vintage HO locos can be tuned to run just as well as the new locos but they draw about five times as much current (which is no big deal, just turn the rheostat to the right) but the issue has always been being able to set out individual cars without using your hands during an operating session like we had to in the 1950s. I can remember in the 1950s going to a home layout with my Dad to watch an operating session and seeing the guys actually lift each car (dummy couplers) to uncouple it as they switched the sidings. That was pretty rough on the detail -- no wonder people used lots of glue on the details like the ladders and steps! This was a great point Don and I am glad that you brought it up. I hadn't thought about how much the KaDee coupler enhanced model railroading. It is amazing how much more I enjoy my little Penn Line Midget switcher (which I have had since 1956) now that it has KaDee couplers. I can now switch my little 1x5 travel layout "hands free" something that I could never do when the loco only had dummy couplers. Cheers! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Steve: > > There's Marx stuff on my layout with Kadees and Central Valleys! > > In certain circles, there may be purists who want everything blueprinted and in the original box.  This list is NOT a place where they'll be happy.  As the description says, this is a place for people who OPERATE these grand old models, and if that means Kadees, and new trucks, well then put on Kadees and new trucks. > > Welcome to the group, I hope you enjoy it here. > > Don > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5979	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Gary

HI Gary: Agree. Trainworld out of Brooklyn, NY was selling 1st and 2nd run P1K F3s for $19.00 each, whereas, as the same time, Walthers wanted somewhere in the neighborhood of $99.00 each. Same loco, different paint scheme, maybe "later" run, but all in all, same old product. Ditto the P1K RDCs, same price at Trainworld, but arm and leg at Walthers. Don't understand it... As I said earlier, the pricing policy is badly skewed somewhere where model trains are concerned. I also model airplanes (model airliners), and there are some top quality items out there, and they are priced no where near where trains are. Most of these are cast metal models with a great deal of detail which makes them almost museum quality. This is particularly true of "vintage" models and old airline names and logos that are no longer in existence today. Non-train plastics aren't all that expensive either by comparison. You can still acquire these at reasonable costs, at most LHS. What I find most annoying is that while the prices of our trains have taken off, they have done so dramatically, rapidly, and steeply - and continue to do so without end, unchecked. At some point, that has to be bad for the hobby overall. So, yes, I get concerned when I perceive that the mfrs and distributors are out to destroy the hobby, rather than promote it. Keep well, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5980	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Gary - P1K F3s gears

Hi Gary: From the "just in case" dept, those P2K replacement gears will fit the P1K F3s with no problems. Most P1K/P2k all use the same gears, including the P2K E units. I had a few F3s crack gears too, and the newer gear sets work very well in them. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5981	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

HI Gerry: Well, you CAN have fun on a club layout, especially if it is a DCC controlled layout. Get an old Athearn "DC" RTR F7A unit, paint it pink or in some "hippy" colors, - then turn it loose on the DCC layout and watch all the guys with DCC controllers try and stop it!  Since it isn't DCC, and DCC requires a lot of power, the old DC unit will fly around the layout like a rocket and terrorize all of the DCC guys. Works everytime! LOL LOL... Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5982	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears

Hi Dave, If they break anytime soon, instead of worrying about what Walthers will do, I will most likely just do as I've always done, use Athearn parts...........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:39:20 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Gary - P1K F3s gears Hi Gary: From the "just in case" dept, those P2K replacement gears will fit the P1K F3s with no problems. Most P1K/P2k all use the same gears, including the P2K E units. I had a few F3s crack gears too, and the newer gear sets work very well in them. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000 000001) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5983	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Gary

Hi Dave, Oh yeah, its going to get real bad for the hobby overall at some point, while someone earlier pointed out that manufacturers are paying more attention to the guys who do mass purchases of high end China product, therein lies the problem, as that well will eventually run dry, and a few hobby shops will find themselves stuck with a whole bunch of stuff sitting on the shelf, such as recently the case at Dana's RR Supply, he finally priced all P2k rolling stock kits at $5.00 each, and sold them off to get rid of them, as they were taking up space on a shelf that could be used to display stuff that will actually sell. Another example of just that happened in the last few years in the O scale world, where MTH and Atlas were requiring their dealers to buy everything in case lots, so the dealer gets stuck with all the overage, all this limited run mentality is killing the hobby, and they wonder why virtual railroading is taking the place of 3D modeling...........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:37:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Back to Gary HI Gary: Agree. Trainworld out of Brooklyn, NY was selling 1st and 2nd run P1K F3s for $19.00 each, whereas, as the same time, Walthers wanted somewhere in the neighborhood of $99.00 each. Same loco, different paint scheme, maybe "later" run, but all in all, same old product. Ditto the P1K RDCs, same price at Trainworld, but arm and leg at Walthers. Don't understand it... As I said earlier, the pricing policy is badly skewed somewhere where model trains are concerned. I also model airplanes (model airliners), and there are some top quality items out there, and they are priced no where near where trains are. Most of these are cast metal models with a great deal of detail which makes them almost museum quality. This is particularly true of "vintage" models and old airline names and logos that are no longer in existence today. Non-train plastics aren't all that expensive either by comparison. You can still acquire these at reasonable costs, at most LHS. What I find most annoying is that while the prices of our trains have taken off, they have done so dramatically, rapidly, and steeply - and continue to do so without end, unchecked. At some point, that has to be bad for the hobby overall. So, yes, I get concerned when I perceive that the mfrs and distributors are out to destroy the hobby, rather than promote it. Keep well, Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000 000001) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5984	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC

mmattjcoleman wrote: > Gerold, > > Thanks! that is the kind of info I was looking for. I 'smoked' a > decoder on one of my first conversions so I was hesitant to do more > but your comment on the heatsink is a great tip. > > Matt, beware - you will have read from my bad experience with smoking decoders without apparent reason... so the heat sink is no cure all; most decoders ( at least the LENZ and ZIMO I use) have a safety shut down feature which prevents them to "smoke" due to overload alone - and the four decoders I smoked ( there was really smoke coming out of the wire mesh openings of my C855 - what a sight!) ALL failed either at startup or after a few inches without load... therefore the interference supression kit ( which was initially designed for Maerklin AC motors) - but it is to early to tell if THIS is the cure - all. I have to gather enough courage to install a new EURO 45.- decoder + an EURO 5.- supression kit in the C855 and run her for some time.. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5985	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC

Dst8596587@... wrote: > Matt, > > I have installed a number of decoders in 60 era brass steam engines > and have had little problems with them. My decoder of choice is the > Digitrxax DH 123 which for me has proven to be reliable and is not > expensive. If possible I use the original motor. If it is a Pitman I > have good sucess in reusing it. Not so in the case of Tenshodo or Ktm > motors. The key is testing for amperage draw of the motor prior to > installation. Measure in both the stall and normal running > configuration. It should be done while installed in the locomotive due > to other factors, binds, poor lubrication etc, that may affect > performance. I do not isolate the motor frame from the body as it is a > good heat sink. I isolate the brushes from the body which is required. > If you have a Tenshodo type motor where the brush cap is sodered to > the motor frame then you may have to isolate the motor. However I have > found most of these motors have an insulater between the cap and the > brush which can be used as the isolation once the solder is removed. > My Rivarossi Allegheny has been running on DCC fpr 3 yearws now and > is still operating like new. I have installed some can motors in > engines as replacement for open frame and am not completly satisfied > at the results. This is normally due to the motor rpm and gearing on > the locomotive. One other note, I will not install a sound decoder > that has the motor combined with it. I use seperate decoders, one for > sound, one for the motor control. > I agree, except that my Tenshodo GN S1 runs ok with original motor and without heat sink... she shuts down afte maybe fifteen minutes with a full train; so I assume I will be able to rectify this with a heat sink or a higher rated decoder. Both options are a lot better than repowering ! Recommended practice to check for amp draw is to hold the motor shaft - even a loco which slips its tires under load may stall due to a bind and the decoder should be fit to survive this situation. I only once had a motor whose brushed could not be insulated easily, this was a old KTM in an early run Suydam Z1 , with the brush spring wire screwed on top of the motor; it was necessary to slip plastic insulation (stripped from a wire) over the spring wire - a real pain. Re the Allegheny - she should offer no problem to DCC operations, the current run comes with ESU sound + DCC . Dont think your model has asignificant different motor than the new release. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5986	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears

I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but Life-Like/Proto/Walthers will replace the broken wheelsets at no cost except for shipping. I had a bunch of Athearn wheelsets and used those while my Proto's were being replaced.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:39 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Gary - P1K F3s gears Hi Gary: From the "just in case" dept, those P2K replacement gears will fit the P1K F3s with no problems. Most P1K/P2k all use the same gears, including the P2K E units. I had a few F3s crack gears too, and the newer gear sets work very well in them. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5987	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

The guys at the club know to program in '03' and that will take care of running any non DCC engines.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] prices HI Gerry: Well, you CAN have fun on a club layout, especially if it is a DCC controlled layout. Get an old Athearn "DC" RTR F7A unit, paint it pink or in some "hippy" colors, - then turn it loose on the DCC layout and watch all the guys with DCC controllers try and stop it!  Since it isn't DCC, and DCC requires a lot of power, the old DC unit will fly around the layout like a rocket and terrorize all of the DCC guys. Works everytime! LOL LOL... Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5988	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Gary

What sort of motors, gear trains, and electronics are in those model airliners you are comparing trains to?   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Back to Gary HI Gary: Agree. Trainworld out of Brooklyn, NY was selling 1st and 2nd run P1K F3s for $19.00 each, whereas, as the same time, Walthers wanted somewhere in the neighborhood of $99.00 each. Same loco, different paint scheme, maybe "later" run, but all in all, same old product. Ditto the P1K RDCs, same price at Trainworld, but arm and leg at Walthers. Don't understand it... As I said earlier, the pricing policy is badly skewed somewhere where model trains are concerned. I also model airplanes (model airliners), and there are some top quality items out there, and they are priced no where near where trains are. Most of these are cast metal models with a great deal of detail which makes them almost museum quality. This is particularly true of "vintage" models and old airline names and logos that are no longer in existence today. Non-train plastics aren't all that expensive either by comparison. You can still acquire these at reasonable costs, at most LHS. What I find most annoying is that while the prices of our trains have taken off, they have done so dramatically, rapidly, and steeply - and continue to do so without end, unchecked. At some point, that has to be bad for the hobby overall. So, yes, I get concerned when I perceive that the mfrs and distributors are out to destroy the hobby, rather than promote it. Keep well, Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000 000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5989	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears

Hi Steve, Might as well leave the Athearn sets in, since those are essentially the same product anyway, unless your wanting Walthers to stick by their product, which for the most part, I'm sure they do, (unless you bought it from a mail order dealer, ebay or somewhere that Walthers might object to), which is fine of course..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:23:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Gary - P1K F3s gears I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but Life-Like/Proto/ Walthers will replace the broken wheelsets at no cost except for shipping. I had a bunch of Athearn wheelsets and used those while my Proto's were being replaced.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:39 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Gary - P1K F3s gears Hi Gary: From the "just in case" dept, those P2K replacement gears will fit the P1K F3s with no problems. Most P1K/P2k all use the same gears, including the P2K E units. I had a few F3s crack gears too, and the newer gear sets work very well in them. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000 000001) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5990	From: AL	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199

Al, I don't know if you were responding directly to my comments about Apples, Oranges, and all the rest, but you brought up a point I have been looking at since I joined this list. <snipped > Has anyone else violated the sanctity of the "true vintage HO" and added DCC directly to an existing vintage chassis and motor? Just curious and reply off list if you think it is off topic. Thanks Matt ....................... Matt, not direclty targeted at you or anyone else, just my own thoughts, etc. And, personally, I don;t have anything against DCC as a subject - in fact the semi-club I visit locally uses DCC exclusively, which makes it tough to run any of my oldies .. And you are 110% right,t he low speed performance and smoothness of locos I;ve run over there ( not my own ), was great. I DEFINATELY see where DCC has it's place, especially with clubs, etc.. not sure I think it's needed on a home layout, but to each thier own . I * DO * have a problem with every new offering being Dcc equiped / ready and driving costs up (see my note on cars doing same). As for adding DCC to vintage - if you enjoy the tinkering to make it work, I personally don;t think it's a huge issue, it's not irreversable, and since many of these were kits in the first place, not like you could not rewire it back and noone would know. I'm a purist - if a vintage kit I pick up has Mantua or dummy couplers, I leave em in place 90% of the time ( note I collect more than operate, although I am definately a model BUILDER ), if I am building the kit from a kit or scratch, it usually gets Kadee's. I've been known to add extra detail, or A-line steps in place of molded ones, but not my own personal norm - if others wish to, go for it. Bottom line is - ENJOY the hobby, which if it sends us all tot he poorhouse, or out on the street when morgages are unpaid, well... Me, I'd rather grab a bunch of old plastic, fix em up so they run and look good, and add em to my ever-growing displays, run a few at the club once in a while ( might have to put DCC in one loco, so I can run more than my rolling stock ), and generally have fun with the 'more cars are better than more detail'. getting away from the thread ( should start anew, sorry... ) ,, is, I think of my HO involvment more along the lines of a Toy Train / Lionel collector, not a model railroader (although my long involvment with many modelling hobbies means I can't stop building / tinkering, so I'll NEVER be a 100% collector, lol, and I unbox ALL or em :-) . if I ever do get space and desire to build a layout, would like to have an HO version of the tinplate/ Hi Rail stuff you see, with all the operating accessories, minimal detail, off the shelf structures, something along that line, just for FUN ( open to input or comments on hom others are building thier own Pikes <-- now there's a vintage word :-) ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5991	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears

I called them on the phone and they told me to gather together the cracked gears, and they also gave me a list of engines that qualify for replacement, and send them all back to Walthers. Not all engines had the gear problem. I had to include a check for $7.00 return postage and handling. I went through all my P1K and P2K engines and sent back 88 wheelsets. I even removed some that weren't cracked, yet. I figured if I'm going to pay to have them mail them back to me, I'm going to give them all back at the same time and pay only once. The replacements came after a couple of weeks.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Gary - P1K F3s gears Hi Steve, Might as well leave the Athearn sets in, since those are essentially the same product anyway, unless your wanting Walthers to stick by their product, which for the most part, I'm sure they do, (unless you bought it from a mail order dealer, ebay or somewhere that Walthers might object to), which is fine of course..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:23:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Gary - P1K F3s gears I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but Life-Like/Proto/ Walthers will replace the broken wheelsets at no cost except for shipping. I had a bunch of Athearn wheelsets and used those while my Proto's were being replaced.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:39 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Gary - P1K F3s gears Hi Gary: From the "just in case" dept, those P2K replacement gears will fit the P1K F3s with no problems. Most P1K/P2k all use the same gears, including the P2K E units. I had a few F3s crack gears too, and the newer gear sets work very well in them. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000 000001) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5992	From: AL	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1202

Another example of just that happened in the last few years in the O scale world, where MTH and Atlas were requiring their dealers to buy everything in case lots, so the dealer gets stuck with all the overage, all this limited run mentality is killing the hobby, and they wonder why virtual railroading is taking the place of 3D modeling...........:o) Gary W ................................................... Gary, Funny you should mention O scale - was just discussing the other day with a couple family members ( non-railroad people) about costs, and that ( especially as a collector ), I could switch to O, and SAVE MONEY . Especially online,etc - I can get K-LIne or Lionel rolling stock for far less than modern HO rtr, and it has the 'mystique' of 'toy train collector' ;-) O motive power is still pricey, but not when compared to DCC / SOunds locos. I guess as long as I can find vintage in quantity to support my habit, lol, I'm an HO'er for life, but will be keeping that 'switch to O' in the back of my mind, and maybe even the corner of my eye while searching for new aquisitions. ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5993	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Gary - P1K F3s gears

I'm told Walthers now requires that you supply them with your original receipt showing you bought the engine from them or one of their dealers to get replacement gears. This is off topic however, better dealt with in one of the other HO groups. Thanks Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Gary - P1K F3s gears I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but Life-Like/Proto/Walthers will replace the broken wheelsets at no cost except for shipping. I had a bunch of Athearn wheelsets and used those while my Proto's were being replaced. Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5994	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

cnj999 wrote: > Something I don't think all that many hobbyists appreciate, but a > fact not lost on the manufacturers, is that today there is an element > within the hobby I'd classify as the moneyed elite. Perhaps they're all hoping to sell trains to Rod Stewart and Sam Posey. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5995	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Chuck K

Hi Chuck K: In reference to your question, the "static" type of motors and gears. These are essentially non-operating models of which I am speaking, and which, in and of themselves, serve a hobby purpose to those for whom there is interest. That wasn't the point however. The idea is that a "lateral" hobby that isn't part of the train hobby seems to be doing very well in comparison to trains, as are plastics and other hobbies. Much (also) seems to depend on "who" the supplier of our products are. Case in point, Walthers and Athearn are now overly expensive. Other products, especially from Horizon, or Model Expo, (or IHC, or Model Power, or Minicraft, or even Corgi) are much less expensive, even though they fill essentially the same disposable income requirement. "Marketing" also has a lot to do with costs associated with this hobby of ours. Trains, for some reason, are only ever available from "affiliated" hobby shops who are loyal to Horizon or Walthers, and not at Kmart, Walmart, Hobby Lobby, -- or places where real working people actual go to "shop". Unlike lower priced hobbies, for some reason, trains are "channeled" into exclusive distribution outlets, which I believe drives costs up -- and keeps them there. Our local Hobby Lobby store used to carry trains from a number of sources. A check with the store manager as to why they discontinued them was primarily their "cost" and the fact that they were soooo expensive, that they didn't move -- so they dropped them from their store inventory. In similar fashion, we have a LHS here in town who, for the same reason, refuses to carry or stock any model trains whatsover with the same complaint. This LHS has tripled his inventory in plastic models to make up for the trains, and appears to be doing very well as a result. At least, plastics are affordable, even by kids, and there is a great variety out there to choose from.   Point of the response to Gary was that "non-train" hobby items seem to be within reason so far as cost is concerned. Trains, especially HO trains these days, for their outlandish prices, aren't really anything "new" in the marketplace. Same old motors, same old detail parts that have been well established now for over 20 years. It would seem as though the prices and costs should have stablized long ago, particularly since the same (old) tooling is re-used over and over with each new re-issue or re-release to a point that it has all been paid for and amortized over time thru successive sales. Is it any wonder then that eBay, train shows, basement operators, and online for sale lists do well in this hobby like no other? Consider for a moment what it is that Walthers is offering in the P2K line: Same old GPs, same old F3s, FMs, same old E units -- nothing at all really "new", and especially in most cases, nothing that no other mfr hasn't already offered as well. Aside from being forced to "ride it out" I also believe from this list (and others) that more and more modelers are beginning to feel like a captive audience to the suppliers -- (Walthers, Athearn + some others), and are getting fed up with it. The hobby and its modelers aren't dying off from age -- they are slowly being strangled to death. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5996	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: prices

Hi Steve: Understand -- but NOT everyone knows that! In the mid-50s when DC was the "in thing" we did similar crazy and fun things. In those days, Marx and some others made clockwork (wind up) HO trains. Wind 'em up, and turn them loose. Most had plastic or hard rubber wheels that ran on HO track. One we had in particular was a small streamlined steam loco which was made in Germany. It was a speedster, and created all sorts of good natured panic and chaos, usually at a critical time of "prototype" switching movements where its unplanned arrival on the scene wasn't anticipated. (Usually, someone would "discreetly" sneak this thing on to the layout while others were distracted doing something else). At least, we had fun, and things weren't quite so serious as they are today..... Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5997	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199

I have a Varney (cast metal) NW2 with a Hobbytown chassis that I put a can motor and a Digitrax DZ 123 in it.  It does its job on the layout. I only wish that I had ordered the nickel silver wheelsets before Hobbytown shut down.  It is not quite as crisp in appearance and a bit oversize compared to my P2K NW-2, but I love it more, because of it character.  It looks stronger also.  :o)   I will be putting a decoder in a Hobbytown RSD-5 after I paint it in the beautiful Southern Green and Gold.  Additionally, I am reworking a Mantua 0-6-0 and an 0-4-0 with new motor, gears and decoders.  I have an old Penn Line 4-4-2 with a Helix Humper and it will be getting a decoder after it gets rework and new paint.  Yep, you bet, I love the old heavy duties and plan on running them as log as I live, but I will never look back to DC and still kick myself for not having gone to DCC years earlier. Good luck and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: Sailordoode@... Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:50:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Digest Number 1199 Al, I don't know if you were responding directly to my comments about Apples, Oranges, and all the rest, but you brought up a point I have been looking at since I joined this list. <snipped > Has anyone else violated the sanctity of the "true vintage HO" and added DCC directly to an existing vintage chassis and motor? Just curious and reply off list if you think it is off topic. Thanks Matt ............ ......... .. Matt, not direclty targeted at you or anyone else, just my own thoughts, etc. And, personally, I don;t have anything against DCC as a subject - in fact the semi-club I visit locally uses DCC exclusively, which makes it tough to run any of my oldies .. And you are 110% right,t he low speed performance and smoothness of locos I;ve run over there ( not my own ), was great. I DEFINATELY see where DCC has it's place, especially with clubs, etc.. not sure I think it's needed on a home layout, but to each thier own . I * DO * have a problem with every new offering being Dcc equiped / ready and driving costs up (see my note on cars doing same). As for adding DCC to vintage - if you enjoy the tinkering to make it work, I personally don;t think it's a huge issue, it's not irreversable, and since many of these were kits in the first place, not like you could not rewire it back and noone would know. I'm a purist - if a vintage kit I pick up has Mantua or dummy couplers, I leave em in place 90% of the time ( note I collect more than operate, although I am definately a model BUILDER ), if I am building the kit from a kit or scratch, it usually gets Kadee's. I've been known to add extra detail, or A-line steps in place of molded ones, but not my own personal norm - if others wish to, go for it. Bottom line is - ENJOY the hobby, which if it sends us all tot he poorhouse, or out on the street when morgages are unpaid, well... Me, I'd rather grab a bunch of old plastic, fix em up so they run and look good, and add em to my ever-growing displays, run a few at the club once in a while ( might have to put DCC in one loco, so I can run more than my rolling stock ), and generally have fun with the 'more cars are better than more detail'. getting away from the thread ( should start anew, sorry... ) ,, is, I think of my HO involvment more along the lines of a Toy Train / Lionel collector, not a model railroader (although my long involvment with many modelling hobbies means I can't stop building / tinkering, so I'll NEVER be a 100% collector, lol, and I unbox ALL or em :-) . if I ever do get space and desire to build a layout, would like to have an HO version of the tinplate/ Hi Rail stuff you see, with all the operating accessories, minimal detail, off the shelf structures, something along that line, just for FUN ( open to input or comments on hom others are building thier own Pikes <-- now there's a vintage word :-) ~ AL Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. Enter for your chance to win.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5998	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Chuck K

My question regarding your comparison of static display models of airplanes with operating model railroad products full of electronics wasn't really a question.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Back to Chuck K Hi Chuck K: In reference to your question, the "static" type of motors and gears. These are essentially non-operating models of which I am speaking, and which, in and of themselves, serve a hobby purpose to those for whom there is interest. That wasn't the point however. The idea is that a "lateral" hobby that isn't part of the train hobby seems to be doing very well in comparison to trains, as are plastics and other hobbies. Much (also) seems to depend on "who" the supplier of our products are. Case in point, Walthers and Athearn are now overly expensive. Other products, especially from Horizon, or Model Expo, (or IHC, or Model Power, or Minicraft, or even Corgi) are much less expensive, even though they fill essentially the same disposable income requirement. "Marketing" also has a lot to do with costs associated with this hobby of ours. Trains, for some reason, are only ever available from "affiliated" hobby shops who are loyal to Horizon or Walthers, and not at Kmart, Walmart, Hobby Lobby, -- or places where real working people actual go to "shop". Unlike lower priced hobbies, for some reason, trains are "channeled" into exclusive distribution outlets, which I believe drives costs up -- and keeps them there. Our local Hobby Lobby store used to carry trains from a number of sources. A check with the store manager as to why they discontinued them was primarily their "cost" and the fact that they were soooo expensive, that they didn't move -- so they dropped them from their store inventory. In similar fashion, we have a LHS here in town who, for the same reason, refuses to carry or stock any model trains whatsover with the same complaint. This LHS has tripled his inventory in plastic models to make up for the trains, and appears to be doing very well as a result. At least, plastics are affordable, even by kids, and there is a great variety out there to choose from.   Point of the response to Gary was that "non-train" hobby items seem to be within reason so far as cost is concerned. Trains, especially HO trains these days, for their outlandish prices, aren't really anything "new" in the marketplace. Same old motors, same old detail parts that have been well established now for over 20 years. It would seem as though the prices and costs should have stablized long ago, particularly since the same (old) tooling is re-used over and over with each new re-issue or re-release to a point that it has all been paid for and amortized over time thru successive sales. Is it any wonder then that eBay, train shows, basement operators, and online for sale lists do well in this hobby like no other? Consider for a moment what it is that Walthers is offering in the P2K line: Same old GPs, same old F3s, FMs, same old E units -- nothing at all really "new", and especially in most cases, nothing that no other mfr hasn't already offered as well. Aside from being forced to "ride it out" I also believe from this list (and others) that more and more modelers are beginning to feel like a captive audience to the suppliers -- (Walthers, Athearn + some others), and are getting fed up with it. The hobby and its modelers aren't dying off from age -- they are slowly being strangled to death. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000 000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 5999	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/27/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO and DCC

Thanks for your insights on the motors. I have had good luck with Pittman motors but your experience matched mine on some of the other types -- they just don't work. I had one motor (in a PFM Heisler) that had the brushes isolated and it was an easy conversion. The GHC/Aristo Craft die cast locos (made by a predecessor of Tenshodo by the way) aren't set up that way and I have had to isolate the motors. Thanks for the suggestions. Every bit of info helps. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@... wrote: > > > Matt, > > > > I have installed a number of decoders in 60 era brass steam engines and have had little problems with them. My decoder of choice is the Digitrxax DH 123 which for me has proven to be reliable and is not expensive. If possible I use the original motor. If it is a Pitman I have good sucess in reusing it. Not so in the case of Tenshodo or Ktm motors. The key is testing for amperage draw of the motor prior to installation. Measure in both the stall and normal running configuration. It should be done while installed in the locomotive due to other factors, binds, poor lubrication etc, that may affect? performance.?I do not isolate the motor frame from the body as it is a good heat sink. I isolate the brushes from the body which is required. If you have a Tenshodo type motor where the brush cap is sodered to the motor frame then you may have to isolate the motor. However I have found most of these motors have an insulater between the cap and the brush which can be used as the isolation once the solder is removed. My Rivarossi Allegheny has been running on DCC fpr 3 yearws now and is?still operating like new. I have installed some can motors in engines as replacement for open frame?and am not completly satisfied at the results. This is?normally due to the motor rpm and gearing on the locomotive. One other note, I will not install a sound decoder that has the motor combined with it. I use seperate decoders, one for sound, one for the motor control. > > Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6000	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199

> if I ever do get space and desire to build a layout, would like to have an > HO version of the tinplate/ Hi Rail stuff you see, with all the operating > accessories, minimal detail, off the shelf structures, something along that > line, just for FUN ( open to input or comments on hom others are building > thier own Pikes <-- now there's a vintage word :-) > > ~ AL > > One of my fantasies would be to have TWO layouts - one for the stuff I operate now which includes brand new DCC - sound - every gadget locos, + my vintage models which are compatible without major modifications / discrepancies ... and a second one for all the old stuff that is buried in boxes now - models from manufacturers that didnt take the 1:87 ratio to serious like Fleischmann with the oversize diesels and the shorty ElCapitan coaches, Triang / ATT old time equipment, the weird $$$ Maerklin streamlined double diesel from the Fifties ; the Schuco monorail, Eheim/ Aristo craft Trolleybus ... unfortunately only a dream as I have barely enough space for one layout. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6001	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Chuck K

Hi Dave, Its pretty much the same over in the O scale world, and I'm sure its probably even worse in the N scale world, and if you want to see expensive, (like O and N scale aren't), look at S scale, all of that is more demographics than anything, however, when it comes to HO scale, and newer stuff from Horizon and Walthers, I'd have to say your right on target.............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:18:17 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Back to Chuck K Hi Chuck K: In reference to your question, the "static" type of motors and gears. These are essentially non-operating models of which I am speaking, and which, in and of themselves, serve a hobby purpose to those for whom there is interest. That wasn't the point however. The idea is that a "lateral" hobby that isn't part of the train hobby seems to be doing very well in comparison to trains, as are plastics and other hobbies. Much (also) seems to depend on "who" the supplier of our products are. Case in point, Walthers and Athearn are now overly expensive. Other products, especially from Horizon, or Model Expo, (or IHC, or Model Power, or Minicraft, or even Corgi) are much less expensive, even though they fill essentially the same disposable income requirement. "Marketing" also has a lot to do with costs associated with this hobby of ours. Trains, for some reason, are only ever available from "affiliated" hobby shops who are loyal to Horizon or Walthers, and not at Kmart, Walmart, Hobby Lobby, -- or places where real working people actual go to "shop". Unlike lower priced hobbies, for some reason, trains are "channeled" into exclusive distribution outlets, which I believe drives costs up -- and keeps them there. Our local Hobby Lobby store used to carry trains from a number of sources. A check with the store manager as to why they discontinued them was primarily their "cost" and the fact that they were soooo expensive, that they didn't move -- so they dropped them from their store inventory. In similar fashion, we have a LHS here in town who, for the same reason, refuses to carry or stock any model trains whatsover with the same complaint. This LHS has tripled his inventory in plastic models to make up for the trains, and appears to be doing very well as a result. At least, plastics are affordable, even by kids, and there is a great variety out there to choose from.   Point of the response to Gary was that "non-train" hobby items seem to be within reason so far as cost is concerned. Trains, especially HO trains these days, for their outlandish prices, aren't really anything "new" in the marketplace. Same old motors, same old detail parts that have been well established now for over 20 years. It would seem as though the prices and costs should have stablized long ago, particularly since the same (old) tooling is re-used over and over with each new re-issue or re-release to a point that it has all been paid for and amortized over time thru successive sales. Is it any wonder then that eBay, train shows, basement operators, and online for sale lists do well in this hobby like no other? Consider for a moment what it is that Walthers is offering in the P2K line: Same old GPs, same old F3s, FMs, same old E units -- nothing at all really "new", and especially in most cases, nothing that no other mfr hasn't already offered as well. Aside from being forced to "ride it out" I also believe from this list (and others) that more and more modelers are beginning to feel like a captive audience to the suppliers -- (Walthers, Athearn + some others), and are getting fed up with it. The hobby and its modelers aren't dying off from age -- they are slowly being strangled to death. Dave F ************ ** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home. aol.com/diy/ home-improvement -eric-stromer? video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000 000001) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6002	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1202

Hi Al, I just switched to HO scale from O scale, (though I had been playing with HO for some time), officially back in December, (or was that November?), either way, I was modeling in 2 rail scale O gauge, so my stuff wasn't compatible with the 3 rail stuff unless its converted to 2 rail, one of the reasons I switched was because everything was just getting to be too much, I had rolling stock out the wazoo, all of it modern, my locomotives were all 1st generation diesels, (nothing wrong with that, shortline running modern rolling stock with older power), what I wanted was steam, and steam era equipment, I still love diesels, but in O scale, especially 2 rail O scale, steam is very expensive, its all brass, there just aren't any plastic steam engines out there that are affordable, I still have 2 of the old AHM kit engines, but getting motorizing kits for those is pretty much impossible, I also have an old AHM Casey Jones ten wheeler, again, it requires the older motorizing kit with the actual metal wheels for power pickup, those will pop up on ebay occasionally, but boy those go up in a hurry, the last time I bid on a motorizing kit for one of my 0-8-0's, it I didn't quite bid high enough, I bit upwards of $75, by the time the bidding war was done, that motorizing kit went for well over $150, I simply refuse to go that high for any Rivarossi drive, even in O scale..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: AL <Sailordoode@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:13:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Digest Number 1202 Another example of just that happened in the last few years in the O scale world, where MTH and Atlas were requiring their dealers to buy everything in case lots, so the dealer gets stuck with all the overage, all this limited run mentality is killing the hobby, and they wonder why virtual railroading is taking the place of 3D modeling.... .......:o) Gary W ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... ... Gary, Funny you should mention O scale - was just discussing the other day with a couple family members ( non-railroad people) about costs, and that ( especially as a collector ), I could switch to O, and SAVE MONEY . Especially online,etc - I can get K-LIne or Lionel rolling stock for far less than modern HO rtr, and it has the 'mystique' of 'toy train collector' ;-) O motive power is still pricey, but not when compared to DCC / SOunds locos. I guess as long as I can find vintage in quantity to support my habit, lol, I'm an HO'er for life, but will be keeping that 'switch to O' in the back of my mind, and maybe even the corner of my eye while searching for new aquisitions. ~ AL Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6003	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199

Hi Al, One of the things that we discovered, again, this was in my O scale days, is that DCC is being used to cure the mechanical deficiencies that are found in many of the 2 rail diesels like those put out by Atlas, Weaver and others, since those companies are using the two fisted approach and running a tinplate 2 motor drive in all their diesel models, (with the exception of the Atlas O SW), for a number of years we worked with gears and motors to get our locomotives to run super smooth, with good slow speed operation, same with HO and N scales as well, and here they ruin it all in O scale by using that disgusting 2 motor drive, like whats seen in Lionels and K-Lines as well as the old Williams, so in a word, yes, DCC does cure many ills, however, it shouldn't be used as an excuse to make a less than satisfactory drive run better, and manufacturers should know better, but they haven't seemed to learn anything yet!!!!!:o) Gary W > ....................... > > Matt, not direclty targeted at you or anyone else, just my own thoughts, > etc. > > And, personally, I don;t have anything against DCC as a subject - in fact > the semi-club I visit locally uses DCC exclusively, which makes it tough to > run any of my oldies .. > And you are 110% right,t he low speed performance and smoothness of locos > I;ve run over there ( not my own ), was great. > I DEFINATELY see where DCC has it's place, especially with clubs, etc.. not > sure I think it's needed on a home layout, but to each thier own . > I * DO * have a problem with every new offering being Dcc equiped / ready > and driving costs up (see my note on cars doing same). > > As for adding DCC to vintage - if you enjoy the tinkering to make it work, > I personally don;t think it's a huge issue, it's not irreversable, and since > many of these were kits in the first place, not like you could not rewire it > back and noone would know. > I'm a purist - if a vintage kit I pick up has Mantua or dummy couplers, I > leave em in place 90% of the time ( note I collect more than operate, > although I am definately a model BUILDER ), if I am building the kit from a > kit or scratch, it usually gets Kadee's. > I've been known to add extra detail, or A-line steps in place of molded > ones, but not my own personal norm - if others wish to, go for it. > Bottom line is - ENJOY the hobby, which if it sends us all tot he > poorhouse, or out on the street when morgages are unpaid, well... > > Me, I'd rather grab a bunch of old plastic, fix em up so they run and look > good, and add em to my ever-growing displays, run a few at the club once in > a while ( might have to put DCC in one loco, so I can run more than my > rolling stock ), and generally have fun with the 'more cars are better than > more detail'. > getting away from the thread ( should start anew, sorry... ) ,, is, I think > of my HO involvment more along the lines of a Toy Train / Lionel collector, > not a model railroader (although my long involvment with many modelling > hobbies means I can't stop building / tinkering, so I'll NEVER be a 100% > collector, lol, and I unbox ALL or em :-) . > if I ever do get space and desire to build a layout, would like to have an > HO version of the tinplate/ Hi Rail stuff you see, with all the operating > accessories, minimal detail, off the shelf structures, something along that > line, just for FUN ( open to input or comments on hom others are building > thier own Pikes <-- now there's a vintage word :-) > > ~ AL >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6004	From: Dale Hokanson	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Matt Coleman said: >I can buy old (1950s and 60s) brass and die-cast locos for very reasonable >prices. If I want, I can remotor them and add DCC, and have the fun of doing >it. Great idea, but do you have any suggestions on remotoring and/or regearing and can they be made to run like the newer machines .... Kato drives, for example. I just purchased an Alco Models RSD12 and I have several other Alco Models, Hallmarks, etc. that I would like to ungrade and equip with DCC, including some that aren't available in plastic ... GE U30CG, Alco C643, etc. I would like to keep the frames they come with, but I also know that in some cases putting them on a newer frame (for example the RSD12 on an old Atlas RSD12 with a Kato mechanism) may be the best answer. Any suggestions on where information and guidance for upgrading can be found? Lawrence D. (Dale) Hokanson dale.hokanson@... ____________________________________________________________________

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6005	From: Morgan Smith	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: prices

Vic Bitleris,     Just to let you know; I found it refreshing to encounter your remarks about present and old equipment, price and qualitywise. Pleasant to read some facts-on instead of the endless whining.  We all are extraordinarily lucky to have lived in this wonderful country and enjoyed railroading for enough years to recall the age when vintage was contemporary.  There's been good and bad since forever.  How about some apprection for our good fortune?  The endless nattering about China and Walthers is REALLY SICKENING.  I have very little money, yet can easily obtain more than enough of anything I need to fully enjoy the hobby.  So can anybody else who has the wherewithall to build the basic 4x8.  The whiners should be praising their good lives overall.  Or, try living in China, and see how much you enjoy the other side of the fence.   I suspect you'd be spending very little time complaining on and on about the price of imported locomotives.  Morgantownrr  ----- Original Message ---- From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:10:15 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] prices I dunno, I do like my vintage stuff (the better stuff), but not all vintage was/is that good anyway.  When I look at my Varney stuff, I like it, but it doesn't even come close to the P2K kits that I have.  And the P2K rolling stock is light years finer and more detailed AND the prices are about 10 to 20 bucks (21st century prices), compared to the $5 I used to pay for Athearn stuff in the 1960's.  I would say the new stuff is a TRUE bargain.  I know you cannot compare the engineering and heft that my Mantua Sharks have to the new stuff, but my P2K diesels look much better and run beautifully as well.  Consider the $14.95 the Mantua Sharks cost back in the 1950's to the street prices of a P2K GP-9 at about 30 to 40 dollars.  I dunno, I am thinking we are in a NEW Golden Age of Model Railroading.  Maybe the stuff we are running these days will be someone else's Vintage HO in 40 years? Just to add a bit more spice, I mix my vintage stuff with the new stuff on the layout.  Whenever I see my Thomas Philgas tanker go by, I love the way it looks.  Not quite as detailed as the P2K, Red Caboose, or Tichy tankers I have, but it has something about that just "looks right" and it does not look the least bit out of place. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: Sailordoode@ stny.rr.com Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:24:23 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] prices Have to put in my ( INFLATED ) 2 cents here. Had a similar discussion with my locals shop owner a few weeks back - and he says " you have to compare apples to apples' regarding new items - Baloney ! his point is that Athearn blue box kits aren't as detailed or nice as modern items, and they aren't RTR - well, that's MY point, we DON"T want rtr, and should have a CHOICE. and, as noted, mold costs were payed for years ago, so why should a 7.00 kit sell for 25.0 rtr, because some kid in china was paid 10 cents to assemble it ???? when I left railroading (circa early 80's ) , Athearn kits ran about 3.50-5.00 as I recall ( street price, not retail ),I still have only a couple of my old kits, most were sold / traded off. Inflation calculator, as I looked up a while back, did not double check now - shows 4.00 in 1983 to be around 10-11.00 now.... ok, inlfation sucks, but I make (gross) about double what I made in the 80's ... course housing and expenses are far greater than double, so less disposable income . And, I would pay 10.00 for a kit, if need be, but the 20-30++++ are what irritates me, same as new cars - why pay for cd players, A/C,power everything, etc, etc.. unless you WANT TO! then order options, like the old days - don't force me to buy my new Camaro with every bell and whistle known to man, just so it can retail at 50,000 :-( same with train cars - give us the 6.00 Athearn , or, say Mantua, WITHOUT the metal wheels, etc. and if the modeller wants to add those, he can ADD them, and still not have more $$ into the car than if the rtr had those - 10.00 for the kit, another 4-5 for wheelsets, maybe a dollar or so for coupler upgrade = 15 to 16.00 and 'as-wanted', without the 25-30.00 pricetag. For me, give me cheap cars I can play with / tinker on - vintage is great, but also plastic ( hey, I grew up on those, lol ) - tyco cars were .99 to 2.50 in the 70's - 80's , can be had for under 2 bucks all the time on Ebay ( especially in lots ), and are fun now, like then ... so why does Mantua get 10.00+ for a Tyco model with long-paid-for molds ? or Bachmann can sell 'toy line' cars at 3.99 (street price) when Silver Series are 12.00 ? ( only difference being the wheelsets, as noted - SAME paid for molds ) ... Same with Athearn blue box Locos - why are these 'suddenly' 55-60.00 kits ? they are OLD molds, no Dcc, no added details... And don't get me started on the DCC-everything, it's great for operators / clubs, but NOT for small-timers like myself, and drives costs out of sight.... sell us a base model and 'add-ons' as options, not 'musts' . as for non-mainstream items, such as resin models ( mentioned), as a resin caster myself , I know it's VERY time consuming, and ( at least personally ) many rejects to get it right, so costs are high due to most being 1 man operations anyways, but I don;t think resin casters should sell at ' what the market will bear' either - they should sell at realistic prices and we'll all be happy. as for me .. I'll be here buying all the plastic 'toy train' items I can get at good prices, along with whatever true vintage I can find , and just starting to buy up some of the ($$) brass I drooled over in my teens, might as well have those now than dcc ladden paperweights. :-) ~AL In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6006	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Is the new HO really that expensive?

Hi Lawrence (and group), I think there is a bit of a hole in the collective knowledge in this area, BUT I think it is slowly starting to fill up.  I am seeing more and more articles on remotoring, regearing, and adding decoders to older brass locomotives.  The motors for this kind of work are plentiful on ebay and for $14, you can get a new can motor AND flywheel.  The more difficult part is the regearing.  NWSL does make a lot of gear kits.  But, these are not cheap, nor are they easy to put together and put in.  Also NWSL may close its doors if they don't find a new owner soon.  PSC also makes some gear boxes, so that may be ok.  If you are working on Brass steam locos, there is always Alliance Loco, Helix Humper.  The make a lot of drop ins for the old cast metal steamers.  I bet some of them might work for brass with a bit of modification. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: dale.hokanson@... Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:40:43 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Is the new HO really that expensive? Matt Coleman said: >I can buy old (1950s and 60s) brass and die-cast locos for very reasonable >prices. If I want, I can remotor them and add DCC, and have the fun of doing >it. Great idea, but do you have any suggestions on remotoring and/or regearing and can they be made to run like the newer machines .... Kato drives, for example. I just purchased an Alco Models RSD12 and I have several other Alco Models, Hallmarks, etc. that I would like to ungrade and equip with DCC, including some that aren't available in plastic ... GE U30CG, Alco C643, etc. I would like to keep the frames they come with, but I also know that in some cases putting them on a newer frame (for example the RSD12 on an old Atlas RSD12 with a Kato mechanism) may be the best answer. Any suggestions on where information and guidance for upgrading can be found? Lawrence D. (Dale) Hokanson dale.hokanson@ stanfordalumni. org ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Test your Star IQ Play now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6007	From: Steven Winter	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1199

Make your layout dual controlled: a double pole double throw toggle will let you run both DC and DCC. Flip it one way and you run DC, flip it the other way and you run DCC. Works great.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 4:34 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Digest Number 1199 >  if I ever do get space and desire to build a layout, would like to have an > HO version of the tinplate/ Hi Rail stuff you see, with all the operating > accessories, minimal detail, off the shelf structures, something along that > line, just for FUN ( open to input or comments on hom others are building > thier own Pikes <-- now there's a vintage word :-) > >  ~ AL > >   One of my fantasies would be to have TWO layouts - one for the stuff I operate now which includes brand new DCC  - sound - every gadget locos, + my  vintage models which are compatible without major modifications / discrepancies ... and a second one for all the old stuff that is buried in boxes now - models from manufacturers that didnt take the 1:87 ratio to serious like Fleischmann with the oversize diesels and the shorty ElCapitan coaches, Triang / ATT old time equipment, the weird $$$ Maerklin streamlined double diesel from the Fifties ; the Schuco monorail, Eheim/ Aristo craft Trolleybus .... unfortunately only a dream as I have barely enough space for one layout. Gerold ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6008	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Reply to Gerold

Hi Gerold: How many of those old 1950s Fleischmann HI-Level cars do you have? I have 15 of them, and still use them regularly. Over time, it was necessary to repaint and reletter them with correct numbers for ATSF. Those cars were last produced in 1958 I think. No US supplier has ever supplied them RTR for the mass market, so they will have to do for a few years more (even thoiugh they are shorties, in a long train, they still look nice for old antiques!). Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6009	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: El Capitan memories

WK2SHR@... wrote: > Hi Gerold: > > How many of those old 1950s Fleischmann HI-Level cars do you have? > > I have 15 of them, and still use them regularly. Over time, it was > necessary to repaint and reletter them with correct numbers for > ATSF. > > Those cars were last produced in 1958 I think. No US supplier has > ever supplied them RTR for the mass market, so they will have to do > for a few years more (even thoiugh they are shorties, in a long train, > they still look nice for old antiques!). Dave, I think eight or ten... a long story. I was first exposed to this treat as a toddler - an amusement park near my parents residence had several H0 layouts under glass, coin operated - the equivalent of ten cents gave three minutes of operations of one train. One of these layouts had an Fleischmann ElCapitan and a freight train on a double loop, in a Western setting with Indians, wrecked 4-4-0 and some rock outcroppings. Next time I saw High levels was ten years later ; NOS in a back street hobbyshop. Saved my pennies and bought one , then two, then the shop was closed for good. Got more in the nineties at ridiculous prices ... but also discovered that I could buy full lenght kits in the USA so switched my attention to those. Those who also have an interest in this cars may remember that in 2000 Train Station offered all types except the lounge and stated it would be released shortly ... still no lounge today. So after three years of waiting ,and new deadlines, I bit in the sour apple and bought a Soho Lounge - the most sought after Soho passenger car.... after arrival, I immidiately knew that those expensive plastic shells never would be assembled and started hunting more Soho cars... have fifteen now , in various conditions from "as new" to rather tarnished. Something I always wonder about ... how would have looked an matching observation ? Maybe they even considered it... a wild guess would be a car with wraparound rear glass, in accordance with Automobile styling of the era - the Aerotrain had just that. As I have three Fleischmann lounges maybe I will sacrifice the worst for a conversion experiment... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6010	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories

Hello Gerold: I was curious regarding your Fleischmann HO Hi-Levels. Reason for asking is that these are scarce as hens teeth, even at train shows. Yes, I was aware of the Train Station Products cars, but since those folks never answered their snail mail when I inquired about them some years, ago, I never pursued their product line (except for the ATSF transition piece for a single-level car to match the Hi-Levels). In any event, of the 15 Hi-levels that I have, 2 are lounges. Normal procedure is to run them in 2 trains with their assorted single level cars which makes for a nice looking train. No one has ever mentioned these cars on any list, so when you did, it sort of sparked my interest. FYI, Detail Associates makes the correct diaphrams for these cars. Part # PC 6617, 2 diaphrams per pack (1 pair) specifically for the Budd Hi-Level El Capitan cars, in case you want to upgrade yours. Thanks for the comeback and the info..... Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6011	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories

> > > FYI, Detail Associates makes the correct diaphrams for these cars. > Part # PC 6617, 2 diaphrams per pack (1 pair) specifically for the > Budd Hi-Level El Capitan cars, in case you want to upgrade yours. > > Thanks for the comeback and the info..... > > Dave F Dave, thanks for the info - I have already equipped several of my Soho cars with those diaphragms... They are lesser quailty than the American Limited diaphragms ( springs are a pain to install and break easily) I use on my other cars but I can live with them . Next I will have to add interiors ... they are available too but are horrible expensive. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6012	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories

He Gerold: Am aware of the spring-loaded diaphrams, but could never get them to work right, so I went with the rigid Detail Associates versions. They looked good and were "close enough" for me. You can get around the need to install expensive interiors in all of these cars by adding window shades, blinds and some "tinted" glass to get rid of the hollow look. I have done this on a lot of passenger cars, and it works well. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6013	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: For Sale: Vintage HO "old time" autos (Rare)

List and fellow Vintage HO collectors: Have the following "Shadow Box" series of old, turn of the century automobiles for sale. Made by "AHI Brand Toys" a long time ago, but I don't know when. They are metal miniatures "horseless carriages". These are really early, early models of really ancient autos. 12 cars in a single, original "gift pack" box. 11 of the cars are in their original mini-box, and 1 without original box. All in like new condition. Sell as a 12 car set only. Here is a list: Charbens, red body, yellow bonnet, large yellow spoked wheels, unboxed 1911 Buick Bug, red body, yellow spoked wheels 1909 Model T Ford, blue, red spoked wheels 1904 Darraac, yellow body, red spoked wheels 1907 Vauxhall, green body, red spoked wheels 1909 Stanley Steamer, yellow body, red spoked wheels 1903 Rambler, blue body, red spoked wheels 1910 International Harvester, red body, yellow spoked wheels 1904 Oldsmobile, tan body, red spoked wheels 1902 Air Cooled Franklin, red body, yellow spoked wheels 1903 Cadillac, red body, yellow spoked wheels 1914 Stutz Bearcat, green body, red spoked wheels Other onboard details include seats, headlights in different colors. Sized about right for HO for the collector or turn-of-the-century period modeler. These cars are about the size of some of the older Dinkey toys (close in size to current run Jordan HO vehicles). $200.00 for the set, but may negotiate price somewhat if there is reasonable and serious interest. Contact me off list if you are interested. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6014	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: For Sale: Mantua 0-4-0

List: Vintage HO Mantua 0-4-0 steam loco with tender. Dark blue loco and tender, road number 217, lettered in yellow block letters "Norfolk and Western". Loco appears like new, but suffers from gear lock. Intact, no mods, no parts missing, not run in over 25 years. Heavy metal frame with tender connected via wire to loco. Tender trucks are silver. Most likely circa 1960 issue. $30.00 takes it, plus a little for ship/insurance. If interested, contact me off list. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6015	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories

WK2SHR@... wrote: > He Gerold: > > Am aware of the spring-loaded diaphrams, but could never get them to > work right, so I went with the rigid Detail Associates versions. They > looked > good and were "close enough" for me. > > You can get around the need to install expensive interiors in all of > these cars by > adding window shades, blinds and some "tinted" glass to get rid of the > hollow look. I have done this on a lot of passenger cars, and it works > well. > Dave, Have once added spring wires to a Detail Associates diaphragm after I broke the plastic springs... but for the moment I have out them aside, and work on those cars which are easier to do. I have avoided tinted or matte glazing until now but have used the trick of adding shades quite often ... its especially useful to hide unsightly motors in the passenger compartment of vintage trolleys! Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6016	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories

Hi Gerold: Well, the idea of adding tinted windows and shades or blinds to any passenger car has thus far worked well (at least for me), and adds a tad of realism to an otherwise boring looking car. At the same time, it breaks up the "sameness" that most streamlined cars seem to exhibit when strung together to make a train, and gives them the appearance of being well populated (because shades are all at different levels within the car, or drawn completely). Most of all, shades a "cheap" and work well. In any event, a 2nd life for old, ancient, vintage, out of production cars.... Regards, Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6017	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: Back to Chuck K

WK2SHR@... wrote: > hasn't already offered as well. Aside from being forced to "ride it out" > I also believe from this list (and others) that more and more modelers > are beginning to feel like a captive audience to the suppliers -- (Walthers, > Athearn + some others), and are getting fed up with it. The hobby and > its modelers aren't dying off from age -- they are slowly being > strangled to death. Luckily I have boxes upon boxes of Central Valley, Silver Streak, Ulrich, Ambroid, Menzies, and various other nice old craftsman kits to keep me happy and busy. With the modern interest in RTR by so many people these golden oldies are sometimes more affordable at the swap meets, since fewer modelers are interested in them. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Some people drink from the Fountain of Knowledge, others just gargle, and some just walk up and piss in it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6018	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/28/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories

Tamiya makes a line of acrylic paints (check the plastic modeling section of the hobby shop) that include several "transparent" colors.  The blue and green are good for streamliner windows, red, yellow and green are good for markers and the like. gj ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] El Capitan memories Well, the idea of adding tinted windows and shades or blinds to any passenger car has thus far worked well (at least for me), and adds a

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6019	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

Hi Ya'll, I found this video from someone who subscribed to my videos on youtube, hope you enjoy it.......:o) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jJoFc5IpnQ Gary W OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends: Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6020	From: James B	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: HO brass locomotive Question

I don't know if this is on topic for the group or not, but I thought I would ask. I recently aquired a large collection of vintage HO and included were some older brass locomotives and trolleys. A couple of the pieces had the foam rotting in the boxes and has stuck to the sides of the locos. Some are painted some are not. What is the best way to remove the foam from the locos with out doing too much damage? I appreciate the help. James Bartelt jimbartelt@... Jim's Railroad & Great Lakes Photo's http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=1751079 METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2008 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6021	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

It's unusual in the fact that all shots are of the engine moving forward, except for the last shot when it runs around it's train. Romantic, yes. There are no shots of the engine running in reverse with it's train. There are only passing sidings. There are no turntables on the Strasburg. (Not counting the turntable across the street from the station at the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.) I could have sworn that the outbound from Strasburg had the locomotive running forward and in reverse on the return trip. Oh well, memories fade. Gotta get down there again and do a "memory refresh"! A very enjoyable ride! Been on it Three times since the mid 70's. Thanks for the link! Cordially, Gerry --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > Hi Ya'll, > > I found this video from someone who subscribed to my > videos on youtube, hope you enjoy it.......:o) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jJoFc5IpnQ > > > > Gary W > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text3.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6022	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

That agrees with my memory of my ride on the Strassburg RR, back about 5 years ago. Mike Gerry D wrote: > > > It's unusual in the fact that all shots are of the > engine moving forward, except for the last shot when > it runs around it's train. > Romantic, yes. > There are no shots of the engine running in reverse > with it's train. There are only passing sidings. There > are no turntables on the Strasburg. (Not counting the > turntable across the street from the station at the > Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.) > I could have sworn that the outbound from Strasburg > had the locomotive running forward and in reverse on > the return trip. > Oh well, memories fade. Gotta get down there again and > do a "memory refresh"! > A very enjoyable ride! Been on it Three times since > the mid 70's. > Thanks for the link! > > Cordially, > Gerry >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6023	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

All scenes appear to be of only one half of the trip. That is why you don't see the loco in reverse. If you look at the cars, they are in the same sequence in each scene. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote: > > That agrees with my memory of my ride on the Strassburg RR, back about 5 > years ago. > > Mike > > Gerry D wrote: > > > > > > It's unusual in the fact that all shots are of the > > engine moving forward, except for the last shot when > > it runs around it's train. > > Romantic, yes. > > There are no shots of the engine running in reverse > > with it's train. There are only passing sidings. There > > are no turntables on the Strasburg. (Not counting the > > turntable across the street from the station at the > > Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.) > > I could have sworn that the outbound from Strasburg > > had the locomotive running forward and in reverse on > > the return trip. > > Oh well, memories fade. Gotta get down there again and > > do a "memory refresh"! > > A very enjoyable ride! Been on it Three times since > > the mid 70's. > > Thanks for the link! > > > > Cordially, > > Gerry > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6024	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories

HI GJ: Rather than use paint for streamliner windows, I've always used colored, transparent plastic report covers available from most office suppy houses. Cut strips as needed, install inside window area, and presto -- you're in business. Works. For lighter shading, I have on occassion swiped some of my wifes glass paint used for making stained glass windows. This is especially useful in tinting the "glass" on dome cars to a very light green. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6025	From: morgantownrr	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: value of crane

Can anybody suggest a value for a 1950's Athearn 200 ton RR crane? These seem pretty rare. Most crumbled apart, being made of Zamac(?) I bought it at a show many years back, and have ince met only one other who claimed to have one. The boom is loose and the cabeling is a mess, but all the elements are there, includign those great articulated six- wheel trucks. Thanks Morgan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6026	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane

Well Morgan, I've seen some in darn good to excellent shape ones go on Ebay for about $25 to $45. Then again, clunkers went for slightly less. Watch Ebay yourself for a reference or Fix it up for yourself! I think the only difference from the plastic version is the very nice articulated trucks, like you said, and multiple sheaves on the big hook and boom rigging, today they have a single larger sheaves that replace 2 or three of the narrower ones. The basic stringing of the cables are the same, just more added for multiple loops. Cordially, Gerry --- morgantownrr <morgantownrr@...> wrote: > Can anybody suggest a value for a 1950's Athearn 200 > ton RR crane? > These seem pretty rare. Most crumbled apart, being > made of Zamac(?) I > bought it at a show many years back, and have ince > met only one other > who claimed to have one. The boom is loose and the > cabeling is a mess, > but all the elements are there, includign those > great articulated six- > wheel trucks. Thanks > Morgan > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text3.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6027	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane

Hi Morgan, I have to agree with Gerry. The diecast, provided they are in great shape (this includes an attached boom and proper rigging. If your boom is detached, I suggest you investigate why. Most times, the small pin that holds the boom to the cab chassis is the first and only thing to break. I have ~4-5 of these diecast cranes. ~1 has this problem. I have gotten rid of all the rest that were damaged this way. On average, I would estimate yours to be worth ~$30 if you were to sell it on eBay in it's present state.   They are great cranes though..   Sean Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> wrote: Well Morgan, I've seen some in darn good to excellent shape ones go on Ebay for about $25 to $45. Then again, clunkers went for slightly less. Watch Ebay yourself for a reference or Fix it up for yourself! I think the only difference from the plastic version is the very nice articulated trucks, like you said, and multiple sheaves on the big hook and boom rigging, today they have a single larger sheaves that replace 2 or three of the narrower ones. The basic stringing of the cables are the same, just more added for multiple loops. Cordially, Gerry --- morgantownrr <morgantownrr@ yahoo.com> wrote: > Can anybody suggest a value for a 1950's Athearn 200 > ton RR crane? > These seem pretty rare. Most crumbled apart, being > made of Zamac(?) I > bought it at a show many years back, and have ince > met only one other > who claimed to have one. The boom is loose and the > cabeling is a mess, > but all the elements are there, includign those > great articulated six- > wheel trucks. Thanks > Morgan > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now http://tc.deals. yahoo.com/ tc/blockbuster/ text3.com Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6028	From: James Bartelt	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane

To add on to this question what would a mint unbuilt kit in the box with no problems go for? The collection I just bought had one in it. I am currently going through 20 some boxes of vintage stuff, kits like binkley, la belle, mainline models, silver streak, manor, old wood walthers kits and more.... Most of which I will have for sale at the Train show coming up Sunday in Cedarburg, WI   James Bartelt jimbartelt@... Jim’s Railroad & Great Lakes Photo’s http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=1751079 METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2008 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 1:42:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] value of crane Hi Morgan, I have to agree with Gerry. The diecast, provided they are in great shape (this includes an attached boom and proper rigging. If your boom is detached, I suggest you investigate why. Most times, the small pin that holds the boom to the cab chassis is the first and only thing to break. I have ~4-5 of these diecast cranes. ~1 has this problem. I have gotten rid of all the rest that were damaged this way. On average, I would estimate yours to be worth ~$30 if you were to sell it on eBay in it's present state.   They are great cranes though..   Sean Gerry D <gerard_sr@yahoo. com> wrote: Well Morgan, I've seen some in darn good to excellent shape ones go on Ebay for about $25 to $45. Then again, clunkers went for slightly less. Watch Ebay yourself for a reference or Fix it up for yourself! I think the only difference from the plastic version is the very nice articulated trucks, like you said, and multiple sheaves on the big hook and boom rigging, today they have a single larger sheaves that replace 2 or three of the narrower ones. The basic stringing of the cables are the same, just more added for multiple loops. Cordially, Gerry --- morgantownrr <morgantownrr@ yahoo.com> wrote: > Can anybody suggest a value for a 1950's Athearn 200 > ton RR crane? > These seem pretty rare. Most crumbled apart, being > made of Zamac(?) I > bought it at a show many years back, and have ince > met only one other > who claimed to have one. The boom is loose and the > cabeling is a mess, > but all the elements are there, includign those > great articulated six- > wheel trucks. Thanks > Morgan > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now http://tc.deals. yahoo.com/ tc/blockbuster/ text3.com Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6029	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane

Hi James,   I have never seen one in this state, so for that matter it is a crap shoot, but even still, they are really not that uncommon of an item.. I would think, though with the box and unbuilt, you could get $10 - $20 more, If sold on eBay however, it really depends on the day... it might still go for $40. I would be dissapointed if it did less than that.   Sean James Bartelt <jimbartelt@...> wrote: To add on to this question what would a mint unbuilt kit in the box with no problems go for? The collection I just bought had one in it. I am currently going through 20 some boxes of vintage stuff, kits like binkley, la belle, mainline models, silver streak, manor, old wood walthers kits and more.... Most of which I will have for sale at the Train show coming up Sunday in Cedarburg, WI   James Bartelt jimbartelt@sbcgloba l.net Jim¢s Railroad & Great Lakes Photo¢s http://albums. photo.epson. com/j/AlbumList? u=1751079 METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrc lub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2008 http://members. trainorders. com/scrimjimmy/ spring.html ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 1:42:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] value of crane Hi Morgan, I have to agree with Gerry. The diecast, provided they are in great shape (this includes an attached boom and proper rigging. If your boom is detached, I suggest you investigate why. Most times, the small pin that holds the boom to the cab chassis is the first and only thing to break. I have ~4-5 of these diecast cranes. ~1 has this problem. I have gotten rid of all the rest that were damaged this way. On average, I would estimate yours to be worth ~$30 if you were to sell it on eBay in it's present state.   They are great cranes though..   Sean Gerry D <gerard_sr@yahoo. com> wrote: Well Morgan, I've seen some in darn good to excellent shape ones go on Ebay for about $25 to $45. Then again, clunkers went for slightly less. Watch Ebay yourself for a reference or Fix it up for yourself! I think the only difference from the plastic version is the very nice articulated trucks, like you said, and multiple sheaves on the big hook and boom rigging, today they have a single larger sheaves that replace 2 or three of the narrower ones. The basic stringing of the cables are the same, just more added for multiple loops. Cordially, Gerry --- morgantownrr <morgantownrr@ yahoo.com> wrote: > Can anybody suggest a value for a 1950's Athearn 200 > ton RR crane? > These seem pretty rare. Most crumbled apart, being > made of Zamac(?) I > bought it at a show many years back, and have ince > met only one other > who claimed to have one. The boom is loose and the > cabeling is a mess, > but all the elements are there, includign those > great articulated six- > wheel trucks. Thanks > Morgan > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now http://tc.deals. yahoo.com/ tc/blockbuster/ text3.com Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6030	From: Wobbly913	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane

I have 6 of the metal cranes that are more or less complete, including two kits that were not yet assembled. I have another 6 or 8 that are mostly parts. I have paid as little as $10 for junk models and $25 to 30 for those  in much better condition.   Wobbly913  I collect metal Athearn cranes and RDC cars. morgantownrr <morgantownrr@...> wrote: Can anybody suggest a value for a 1950's Athearn 200 ton RR crane? These seem pretty rare. Most crumbled apart, being made of Zamac(?) I bought it at a show many years back, and have ince met only one other who claimed to have one. The boom is loose and the cabeling is a mess, but all the elements are there, includign those great articulated six- wheel trucks. Thanks Morgan ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6031	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: El Capitan memories

A Doctor friend gave me a bunch of x-ray film that had for some reason not been exposed, but cleared--light blue color. Transparent to translucent.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] El Capitan memories HI GJ: Rather than use paint for streamliner windows, I've always used colored, transparent plastic report covers available from most office suppy houses. Cut strips as needed, install inside window area, and presto -- you're in business. Works. For lighter shading, I have on occassion swiped some of my wifes glass paint used for making stained glass windows. This is especially useful in tinting the "glass" on dome cars to a very light green. Dave F ************** Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6032	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/29/2008
Subject: Re: value of crane

I have one--and just missed the major castings on EBay on another. I think that any missing parts can be substituted from the later plastic one--the sheaves for the small hook are right for the other sheaves when tripled up--a curved surgical needle is handy for rigging it-. One I had as a kid had a slightly eccentric center wheel in one truck--I used to enjoy pushing it back and for the over a rough spot in the track, watching the center frame bob up and down gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "morgantownrr" <morgantownrr@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 8:19 AM Subject: [vintageHO] value of crane > Can anybody suggest a value for a 1950's Athearn 200 ton RR crane? > These seem pretty rare. Most crumbled apart, being made of Zamac(?) I > bought it at a show many years back, and have ince met only one other > who claimed to have one. The boom is loose and the cabeling is a mess, > but all the elements are there, includign those great articulated six- > wheel trucks. Thanks > Morgan > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6033	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: Re: HO brass locomotive Question

James, I am something of an old brass collector and run into that problem regularly. For some reason both Balboa and Westside models seem to have been packed in a foam that deteriorated back into the "goo" from which it came. I have tried several solvents to get it off (soap and water did no good.) The best is MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) use outdoors. I splash some onto a paper towel (and then put the lid back on the MEK can) and get off as much of the deteriorated foam as possible. To get the stuff out of the more delicate areas I used an eyedropper with MEK to put in on the offending spot on the model (often around the airpumps and associate piping) and then gently scrub with an old SOFT toothbrush. I have had some success with paint thinner and isopropyl alcohol but MEK seems to work the best. Under no circumstances should you do this indoors or around open flames of any kind. And that, of course, includes cigarettes being smoked by your friends who are watching. I say that based on personal experience. Hope this helps and I am sure others have even better suggestions. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "James B" <jimbartelt@...> wrote: > > I don't know if this is on topic for the group or not, but I thought > I would ask. I recently aquired a large collection of vintage HO and > included were some older brass locomotives and trolleys. A couple of > the pieces had the foam rotting in the boxes and has stuck to the > sides of the locos. Some are painted some are not. What is the best > way to remove the foam from the locos with out doing too much damage? > I appreciate the help. > > James Bartelt > jimbartelt@... > > > Jim's Railroad & Great Lakes Photo's > http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=1751079 > > > METRO RR Club > http://www.metrorrclub.org > > > METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2008 > http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6034	From: AL	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: train club auction finds

Well, where to start, lol - went to the local club meeting and annual club auction last night - always the highlight of the year clubwise :-) ... I'm still jealous of you guys who have multiple shows to attend, etc.. lucky if there's 2-3 all year around southern NY. so I have to find em when I can . I did spend way to much ( don't we always), came homw with about 5 bucks for the week (translated as 1.2 gal of gas, oops ) . even had to not buy a great boxlot of Lionel ( off topic, but could have made a few bucks for my HO habit, two F units and some others went 60 bucks for 3 boxes full),but, I babble,, on to the goodies Did get some modern plastic, both kits and builtups, not on topic, so will elaborate on the vintage ( no pics yet, sorry, still going through the odds and ends, will post when I can ) . In no particular order: nice Silver Streak Santa fe reefer ( orange with map ), very well built, although unpainted ladders, in real clean original box , good buy at 6 bucks, methinks. an all diecast (looks like one piece shell) express reefer, decalled for Pennsy, not sure who made this one - will photo when I can and post an update. Mantua 0-4-0 Goat, real clean, painted for a private road, not tested if she runs yet. an interesting old Hobbytown RS2 painted for NYSW, mounted on an Athearn chassis (did not open up and check if early non flywheel drive or later version, hard to see inside the loco ),will get some pics of this one as well, after I fix one broken coupler. a nice boxlot of 6 Kasiner Dwarf cars, most are 85% built, with trucks, one observation unbuilt,less trucks , all in original near-mint boxes - will be writing in later for info on these, as there are no instructions, or detailing info, I'd like to finish them and paint em - paid 35.00 which I think is a fair price, but not a steal ( yes / no ? ) also got a nice boxlot with many details parts and pieces, old white metal car ends, doors, Central Valley caboose pieces, 10 paks of Mantua loop couplers if anyone can use em drop me a note, selley detail pcs, etc... will have to see what I can build up from these. my favorite vintage finds is three Central Lines kits in origianal boxes. - one Smoker-Baggage car - wood roof and floor, plastic sides, unbuilt kit less trucks - also "1898" baggage car - wood and plastic sides,unbuilt less trucks - and a slightly longer (ones above are 8 1/2", this one 9 1/2-10",sorry no scael rule handy, so I grabbed this tapemeasure)...anyays, this one's a 'Vestibule end coach' - ALL wood, moslty built, unpainted, no trucks - extremely well done, I might have to varnish ( pun semi-intended) this one and display it , it's just 'too cool' :-) . again, will get pics when I can . and open to any advise as to proper trucks for these, should they be 4 or 6 wheel, etc ? I do have a couple sets of CV 6 wheel sprung vintage trucks, if that's good , might be for the heavyweight car , but assume you gurus need pics to tell ? ( I;m on it, soon, promise, lol ) . Anyways, good night hunting vintage, wish I had more oportunity, although my wallet is likely happy I don't :-) ,although if more shows might not have to buy up 6 months worth of purchases at once, lol. ~ AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6035	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: Brass locoomotive question

Matt's answer is excellent. I'll share the answers I got when I posted the same question to one of the brass lists. Having encountered this (aside; my worse experiences have been with the red foam that seems to bleed more), and being kind of chem-phobic, I'd start with some alcohol (no, some 90% or 70% rubbing isopropyl; not the Johnnie Walker Blue)and some Q-tips or old toothbrushes. Proceed gently. A grit blaster, again being extremely careful, may help next. An ultrasonic cleaner with water and dishwasher detergent might also work, especially in the little crevices.(by now we've disassembled the loco, and since we're probably going to clean out the mechanism and relube you were probably already there). Then graduate to the MEK. All these comments are for unpainted brass. For painted brass, proceed with even greater care, trying any solvents on painted but hidden areas first. Good luck. Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6036	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: HO brass locomotive Question

James Bartelt inquires- I recently aquired a large collection of vintage HO and included were some older brass locomotives and trolleys. A couple of the pieces had the foam rotting in the boxes and has stuck to the sides of the locos. Some are painted some are not. What is the best way to remove the foam from the locos with out doing too much damage? I appreciate the help. Nasty Stuff. 1) Scrape off what you can with your fingers and finger nails alone. 2) Apply soap and warm (not hot) water  with a soft bristled brush. 3) Only then take more brisk measures with a harder bristled brush, or even a brass wired brush or sand paper. Rotting foam will etch brass, and will penetrate paint. The brass etching can be effectively covered up with primer and paint, but the destruction of existing paint can only be remedied by repainting.  Although modern and reportedly-superio replacement foams (Reboxx) are supposed not to rot, I do not trust them to last forever, and I certainly am not tempted to use the cheap look-alike foams that come in packing and with florist supplies. In this regard, I never, i.e. NEVER pack away any brass models without making certain they are wrapped securely in clear Visqueen-like plastic wrapping (which IS impervious to the foam rot). Every year, I go through all of my boxes and check the foam. Just a week ago I discovered rotted foam (it was OK last year) encasing a c. 1980 model . Fortunately, the plastic wrap kept the model OK.  I replaced the foam with new foam from Reboxx. Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6037	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Mantua memories ?

Henry, I finally posted a photo of the AHM version of the Ethyl tank car in “Chuck H vintage” folder.  Along with two Strombecker cars. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Henry Hultgren Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:48 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Mantua memories ?   Yes AHM did release a helium tank car , did anyone release an ethyl tank car [tetraethyl lead additve] ? It was much smaller but distinctive in appearance [painted yellow/leaf green] . HH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6039	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/30/2008
Subject: Re: prices Stop making stupid statements

The person who posted the message under this subject line has been placed on moderation.   Not only has the subject of imported prices been declared "off topic, but more importantly, personal attacks on other members will NOT be tolerated.   Any further posts under this subject line will also result in moderation.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6040	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

That is so neat !!! Now I know what I can do with the old 8mm camcoder stuff I recorded around 1990. I've been needing a kick in the pants to get that done........... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 29, 2008, at 10:23 AM, Gerry D wrote: > It's unusual in the fact that all shots are of the > engine moving forward, except for the last shot when > it runs around it's train. > Romantic, yes. > There are no shots of the engine running in reverse > with it's train. There are only passing sidings. There > are no turntables on the Strasburg. (Not counting the > turntable across the street from the station at the > Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.) > I could have sworn that the outbound from Strasburg > had the locomotive running forward and in reverse on > the return trip. > Oh well, memories fade. Gotta get down there again and > do a "memory refresh"! > A very enjoyable ride! Been on it Three times since > the mid 70's. > Thanks for the link! > > Cordially, > Gerry > > > --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > >> Hi Ya'll, >> >> I found this video from someone who subscribed to my >> videos on youtube, hope you enjoy it.......:o) >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jJoFc5IpnQ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6041	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: HO brass locomotive Question

> > I am something of an old brass collector and run into that problem > regularly. For some reason both Balboa and Westside models seem to > have been packed in a foam that deteriorated back into the "goo" > from which it came. I have tried several solvents to get it off > (soap and water did no good.) One of the best methods is to use vinegar. Seams to desolve the old foam with minimal scrubbing. I have treated many a pair of CV trucks that way. Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6042	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

First time I was there was in the summer of 77, With my daughter, she was 4 at the time. It sure had changed. The last time I was there about 2 years ago. So get a video capture card and get going! I think I'll put up some footage I have of an early Steamtown Run. Gerry --- Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > That is so neat !!! > > Now I know what I can do with the old 8mm camcoder > stuff I recorded > around 1990. > > I've been needing a kick in the pants to get that > done........... > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Mar 29, 2008, at 10:23 AM, Gerry D wrote: > > > It's unusual in the fact that all shots are of the > > engine moving forward, except for the last shot > when > > it runs around it's train. > > Romantic, yes. > > There are no shots of the engine running in > reverse > > with it's train. There are only passing sidings. > There > > are no turntables on the Strasburg. (Not counting > the > > turntable across the street from the station at > the > > Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.) > > I could have sworn that the outbound from > Strasburg > > had the locomotive running forward and in reverse > on > > the return trip. > > Oh well, memories fade. Gotta get down there again > and > > do a "memory refresh"! > > A very enjoyable ride! Been on it Three times > since > > the mid 70's. > > Thanks for the link! > > > > Cordially, > > Gerry > > > > > > --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > > >> Hi Ya'll, > >> > >> I found this video from someone who subscribed to > my > >> videos on youtube, hope you enjoy it.......:o) > >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jJoFc5IpnQ > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text3.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6043	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

Video card....... Heck, I have a complete input package in the box, ready to go........... It's one of those sweet ones loaded with lots of Windows software and instructions to use the with/on-the-Mac software for those machines. Firewire hook-up for both platforms....... Now I finally have both Mac and Windows on the same computers....... and 750-gigs of drive to add to the 'main' computer's original amount of hard drive. Even bought a newer Hi-8-mm camcorder to replace the older one and still be able to play the original plain 8-mm tapes. Most of what I have is early 90's steam activity from North Freedom, some IRM, and a long trip to EBT, and Strasbourg Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Mar 31, 2008, at 7:36 AM, Gerry D wrote: > First time I was there was in the summer of 77, With > my daughter, she was 4 at the time. It sure had > changed. The last time I was there about 2 years ago. > > So get a video capture card and get going! > > I think I'll put up some footage I have of an early > Steamtown Run. > > Gerry > --- Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > >> That is so neat !!! >> >> Now I know what I can do with the old 8mm camcoder >> stuff I recorded >> around 1990. >> >> I've been needing a kick in the pants to get that >> done........... >> >> Best to ya' >> Mike Bauers >> Milwaukee Wi, USA >> >> >> On Mar 29, 2008, at 10:23 AM, Gerry D wrote: >> >>> It's unusual in the fact that all shots are of the >>> engine moving forward, except for the last shot >> when >>> it runs around it's train. >>> Romantic, yes. >>> There are no shots of the engine running in >> reverse >>> with it's train. There are only passing sidings. >> There >>> are no turntables on the Strasburg. (Not counting >> the >>> turntable across the street from the station at >> the >>> Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.) >>> I could have sworn that the outbound from >> Strasburg >>> had the locomotive running forward and in reverse >> on >>> the return trip. >>> Oh well, memories fade. Gotta get down there again >> and >>> do a "memory refresh"! >>> A very enjoyable ride! Been on it Three times >> since >>> the mid 70's. >>> Thanks for the link! >>> >>> Cordially, >>> Gerry >>> >>> >>> --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Ya'll, >>>> >>>> I found this video from someone who subscribed to >> my >>>> videos on youtube, hope you enjoy it.......:o) >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jJoFc5IpnQ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6044	From: legiscircenses1	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Varney metal streamliner passenger car couplers.

Hi - I've got a three or four lines of what I believe are Varney metal streamliner passenger cars - none of them have couplers and I unable to find any info on what I need to do to fix this, can someone please advise me? Thanks in advance.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6045	From: Gerry D	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

Well some of us have to settle for just a capture card on a lowly 1.9 gig machine... (The type with a RCA phono plug input.) I don't have much at all, just one clip from Steamtown's early days in Scranton. Taken with a Magnavox camera and a battery operated 4-head VCR. (ergo the poor quality) Give me 15 minutes and I'll post it for you. http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mike Cordially, Gerry --- Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > Video card....... > > Heck, I have a complete input package in the box, > ready to go........... > > It's one of those sweet ones loaded with lots of > Windows software and > instructions to use the with/on-the-Mac software for > those machines. > Firewire hook-up for both platforms....... > > Now I finally have both Mac and Windows on the same > computers....... > and 750-gigs of drive to add to the 'main' > computer's original amount > of hard drive. Even bought a newer Hi-8-mm camcorder > to replace the > older one and still be able to play the original > plain 8-mm tapes. > > Most of what I have is early 90's steam activity > from North Freedom, > some IRM, and a long trip to EBT, and Strasbourg > > Best to Ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > > On Mar 31, 2008, at 7:36 AM, Gerry D wrote: > > First time I was there was in the summer of 77, > With > > my daughter, she was 4 at the time. It sure had > > changed. The last time I was there about 2 years > ago. > > > > So get a video capture card and get going! > > > > I think I'll put up some footage I have of an > early > > Steamtown Run. > > > > Gerry > > --- Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > > > >> That is so neat !!! > >> > >> Now I know what I can do with the old 8mm > camcoder > >> stuff I recorded > >> around 1990. > >> > >> I've been needing a kick in the pants to get that > >> done........... > >> > >> Best to ya' > >> Mike Bauers > >> Milwaukee Wi, USA > >> > >> > >> On Mar 29, 2008, at 10:23 AM, Gerry D wrote: > >> > >>> It's unusual in the fact that all shots are of > the > >>> engine moving forward, except for the last shot > >> when > >>> it runs around it's train. > >>> Romantic, yes. > >>> There are no shots of the engine running in > >> reverse > >>> with it's train. There are only passing sidings. > >> There > >>> are no turntables on the Strasburg. (Not > counting > >> the > >>> turntable across the street from the station at > >> the > >>> Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.) > >>> I could have sworn that the outbound from > >> Strasburg > >>> had the locomotive running forward and in > reverse > >> on > >>> the return trip. > >>> Oh well, memories fade. Gotta get down there > again > >> and > >>> do a "memory refresh"! > >>> A very enjoyable ride! Been on it Three times > >> since > >>> the mid 70's. > >>> Thanks for the link! > >>> > >>> Cordially, > >>> Gerry > >>> > >>> > >>> --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Ya'll, > >>>> > >>>> I found this video from someone who subscribed > to > >> my > >>>> videos on youtube, hope you enjoy it.......:o) > >>>> > >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jJoFc5IpnQ > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal for Yahoo! users and friends. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text1.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6046	From: Glenn476	Date: 3/31/2008
Subject: Re: Varney metal streamliner passenger car couplers.

As I remember the ones I had, the couplers were styrene with a long straight shank--you were supposed to cut off the end of the shank, slip the shank thru the carrier, and glue the end piece on as a stop. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "legiscircenses1" <legiscircenses1@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 8:46 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney metal streamliner passenger car couplers. > Hi - I've got a three or four lines of what I believe are Varney metal > streamliner passenger cars - none of them have couplers and I unable > to find any info on what I need to do to fix this, can someone please > advise me? Thanks in advance. > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6047	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

Well, I had nothing for the job. So as I looked around I stumbled through a number of reviews and settled into a modestly priced package that is likely just an input card in an external case. That led me to a bundle that while not overly exotic, could be used with both Windows and Mac computers, and seemed to be able to hook up just about anything a humble consumer can have in the house........... Like years worth of Dr Who recordings on Beta, a number of old VHS train tapes I don't expect to ever make it to DVD unless I make my own, and personal tapes on 8-mm tape. Now if I would only plug everything together and spend a few months moving everything to the hard drives...... I have the idea that I need to get the video tape to the hard drives before the tapes go bad on me. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Mar 31, 2008, at 11:35 PM, Gerry D wrote: > Well some of us have to settle for just a capture card > on a lowly 1.9 gig machine... > > (The type with a RCA phono plug input.) > > I don't have much at all, just one clip from > Steamtown's early days in Scranton. Taken with a > Magnavox camera and a battery operated 4-head VCR. > (ergo the poor quality) > > Give me 15 minutes and I'll post it for you. > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mike > > Cordially, > Gerry > > --- Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > >> Video card....... >> >> Heck, I have a complete input package in the box, >> ready to go........... >> >> It's one of those sweet ones loaded with lots of >> Windows software and >> instructions to use the with/on-the-Mac software for >> those machines. >> Firewire hook-up for both platforms.......

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6048	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: HO brass locomotive Question

I had never heard of that before but I will give it a try. It has got to be safer than MEK! Thanks for the tip! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Howard R Garner <cascaderail@...> wrote: > > > One of the best methods is to use vinegar. > Seams to desolve the old foam with minimal scrubbing. > I have treated many a pair of CV trucks that way. > > Howard Garner >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6049	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

I was just bustin' ya' Mike, mine is an older card and all, but it functions well for me. Sort of let's me stretch the envelope with figuring other ways around things. Good luck with it. But better do it soon. You can see from my little clip ( http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mike ) that I was already having problems with color shift and edge wobbles in places. DVDs are not always the answer, they go bad also. Make two of everything you hope to keep. I've even made a copy of a DVD I bought of the trolley systems around my city because the first one I bought would hang up in places! And that was a commercial DVD. Still it was not pressed rather it was a small operation that made it and they recorded it like we do. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com --- Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > Well, > > I had nothing for the job. So as I looked around I > stumbled through a > number of reviews and settled into a modestly > priced package that is > likely just an input card in an external case. > > That led me to a bundle that while not overly > exotic, could be used > with both Windows and Mac computers, and seemed to > be able to hook up > just about anything a humble consumer can have in > the > house........... Like years worth of Dr Who > recordings on Beta, a > number of old VHS train tapes I don't expect to ever > make it to DVD > unless I make my own, and personal tapes on 8-mm > tape. > > Now if I would only plug everything together and > spend a few months > moving everything to the hard drives...... > > I have the idea that I need to get the video tape to > the hard drives > before the tapes go bad on me. > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Mar 31, 2008, at 11:35 PM, Gerry D wrote: > > > Well some of us have to settle for just a capture > card > > on a lowly 1.9 gig machine... > > > > (The type with a RCA phono plug input.) > > > > I don't have much at all, just one clip from > > Steamtown's early days in Scranton. Taken with a > > Magnavox camera and a battery operated 4-head VCR. > > (ergo the poor quality) > > > > Give me 15 minutes and I'll post it for you. > > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mike > > > > Cordially, > > Gerry > > > > --- Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > > > >> Video card....... > >> > >> Heck, I have a complete input package in the box, > >> ready to go........... > >> > >> It's one of those sweet ones loaded with lots of > >> Windows software and > >> instructions to use the with/on-the-Mac software > for > >> those machines. > >> Firewire hook-up for both platforms....... > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6050	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: train club auction finds - trucks for Central Lines kits

> > my favorite vintage finds is three Central Lines kits in origianal boxes. > - one Smoker-Baggage car - wood roof and floor, plastic sides, unbuilt kit > less trucks > - also "1898" baggage car - wood and plastic sides,unbuilt less trucks > - and a slightly longer (ones above are 8 1/2", this one 9 1/2-10",sorry no > scael rule handy, so I grabbed this tapemeasure)...anyays, this one's a > 'Vestibule end coach' - ALL wood, moslty built, unpainted, no trucks - > extremely well done, I might have to varnish ( pun semi-intended) this one > and display it , it's just 'too cool' :-) . again, will get pics when I can > . > and open to any advise as to proper trucks for these, should they be 4 or 6 > wheel, etc ? I do have a couple sets of CV 6 wheel sprung vintage trucks, if > that's good , might be for the heavyweight car , but assume you gurus need > pics to tell ? ( I;m on it, soon, promise, lol ) . > > Hi Al, to my best knowledge Central Lines never made all wood cars/ kits - so most likely you have got a LaBelle or Ambroid coach in a Central Lines box. Re trucks - three options for four wheel trucks , think six wheel trucks would be an overkill...: Most appropriate of course Central Valley T25 or T31, then PSC Commonwealth standard or Harriman 8 ft trucks, available in brass or plastic, kit or assembled, Commonwealth is on the heavy side; Harriman a close match to the CVs. or Walthers Part # 933-1077 - I think this one was initially released with express reefers but it is close if not identical to passenger trucks of the era. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6051	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

I expect to keep backing up the back-ups over the years. I've got a few gold-level cd's used for 100-year archiving and will see about getting the similar dvd's as well. The way things go, we will likely have new media to copy to in new formats and huge new capacities every 5-years or so. 10 or so years from now, we could be laser-writing in 3d layers to crystal memory chips or something just as exotic. At least any decent quality versus dirt cheap dvd's we use today will last us for 10-years before we need to re-copy them. I've got my 8-mm tapes sitting in a comfortably safe place and environment as they nap a very few more months before going into the computer. I seem to be waiting for whatever new camcorders are rolled out before I bother with a new cam-corder. The chip based ones are promising. But speeds need to improve more and those type don't have a better resolution yet. While I wait for those, the outdated but yet barely used Hi-8 compact will have to get some exercise. Now when we get those improved pocketable chip-based camcorders in the next 5-years or so.......... I'm going to feel so very spoiled! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 1, 2008, at 9:36 AM, Gerry D wrote: > I was just bustin' ya' Mike, mine is an older card and > all, but it functions well for me. Sort of let's me > stretch the envelope with figuring other ways around > things. Good luck with it. But better do it soon. You > can see from my little clip > ( http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mike ) > that I was already having problems with color shift > and edge wobbles in places. > > DVDs are not always the answer, they go bad also. Make > two of everything you hope to keep. I've even made a > copy of a DVD I bought of the trolley systems around > my city because the first one I bought would hang up > in places! And that was a commercial DVD. Still it was > not pressed rather it was a small operation that made > it and they recorded it like we do. > > Cordially, > Gerry > http://kitbash.ourpage.com > > > --- Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > >> Well, >> >> I had nothing for the job. So as I looked around I >> stumbled through a >> number of reviews and settled into a modestly >> priced package that is >> likely just an input card in an external case. >> >> That led me to a bundle that while not overly >> exotic, could be used >> with both Windows and Mac computers, and seemed to >> be able to hook up >> just about anything a humble consumer can have in >> the >> house........... Like years worth of Dr Who >> recordings on Beta, a >> number of old VHS train tapes I don't expect to ever >> make it to DVD >> unless I make my own, and personal tapes on 8-mm >> tape. >> >> Now if I would only plug everything together and >> spend a few months >> moving everything to the hard drives...... >> >> I have the idea that I need to get the video tape to >> the hard drives >> before the tapes go bad on me. >> >> Best to ya' >> Mike Bauers >> Milwaukee Wi, USA >> >> >> On Mar 31, 2008, at 11:35 PM, Gerry D wrote: >> >>> Well some of us have to settle for just a capture >> card >>> on a lowly 1.9 gig machine... >>> >>> (The type with a RCA phono plug input.) >>> >>> I don't have much at all, just one clip from >>> Steamtown's early days in Scranton. Taken with a >>> Magnavox camera and a battery operated 4-head VCR. >>> (ergo the poor quality) >>> >>> Give me 15 minutes and I'll post it for you. >>> http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mike >>> >>> Cordially, >>> Gerry >>> >>> --- Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: >>> >>>> Video card....... >>>> >>>> Heck, I have a complete input package in the box, >>>> ready to go........... >>>> >>>> It's one of those sweet ones loaded with lots of >>>> Windows software and >>>> instructions to use the with/on-the-Mac software >> for >>>> those machines. >>>> Firewire hook-up for both platforms.......

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6052	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

Going off topic a bit but I can't resist: Sigh. I'm playing 75+ year old 78 RPMs wihout any problem (Some are almost 90 years old, yet!), have been doing so for several years now without problems, and expect to keep doing so. I fully expect my old Bluebirds and Victors to well outlast their CD 'remastered' junk counterparts. Off topic, I know, but I really, really, could not resist pointing this out. -Steve N. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > > I expect to keep backing up the back-ups over the years. > > I've got a few gold-level cd's used for 100-year archiving and will > see about getting the similar dvd's as well. > > The way things go, we will likely have new media to copy to in new > formats and huge new capacities every 5-years or so. 10 or so years > from now, we could be laser-writing in 3d layers to crystal memory > chips or something just as exotic. > > At least any decent quality versus dirt cheap dvd's we use today will > last us for 10-years before we need to re-copy them. > > I've got my 8-mm tapes sitting in a comfortably safe place and > environment as they nap a very few more months before going into the > computer. > > I seem to be waiting for whatever new camcorders are rolled out before > I bother with a new cam-corder. The chip based ones are promising. But > speeds need to improve more and those type don't have a better > resolution yet. > > While I wait for those, the outdated but yet barely used Hi-8 compact > will have to get some exercise. > > Now when we get those improved pocketable chip-based camcorders in the > next 5-years or so.......... I'm going to feel so very spoiled! > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6053	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

----- Original Message ----- From: "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 5:12 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT ! > Going off topic a bit but I can't resist: > > Sigh. I'm playing 75+ year old 78 RPMs wihout any problem (Some are > almost 90 years old, yet!), have been doing so for several years now > without problems, and expect to keep doing so. I fully expect my old > Bluebirds and Victors to well outlast their CD 'remastered' junk > counterparts. > > Off topic, I know, but I really, really, could not resist pointing > this out. > > -Steve N. I archived all my 78's onto open reel tape some years back, but I still enjoy listening to Glenn Miller doing Chattanooga Choo Choo on LP vinyl while working on Varney pullman cars. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6054	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/1/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

--- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I archived all my 78's onto open reel tape some > years back, but I still > enjoy listening to Glenn Miller doing Chattanooga > Choo Choo on LP vinyl > while working on Varney pullman cars. > > Don > OK Don, here's it for you as an MP3: http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mp3/1941_Glenn_Miller-Chattanooga_Choo_Choo.mp3 Enjoy. Give me 15 min and I'll post a few more "oldies" for you at: http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mp3 Cordially, Gerry ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6055	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

OOPS, some of those files are VBR or Variable Bit Rate files and Microsoft's player dies. For those with this problem, using Internet Explorer, here's an alternate link: http://kitbash.ourpage.com/flv This should work in Internet Explorer, Netscape and FireFox. It's one of those things like off-the-wall to make it work. I do lots of that kind of stuff. (uploading now at 3:00 AM) Enjoy, Gerry --- Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > > --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > > > I archived all my 78's onto open reel tape some > > years back, but I still > > enjoy listening to Glenn Miller doing Chattanooga > > Choo Choo on LP vinyl > > while working on Varney pullman cars. > > > > Don > > > > OK Don, > here's it for you as an MP3: > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mp3/1941_Glenn_Miller-Chattanooga_Choo_Choo.mp3 > > Enjoy. > > Give me 15 min and I'll post a few more "oldies" for > you at: http://kitbash.ourpage.com/mp3 > > Cordially, > Gerry > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one > month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6056	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

All quite true....... But aren't you very glad you missed out on the major problems with the older player piano rolls that by now were so fragile that they can't survive being played back on their players without falling apart?? I say were, because a salvage project made a simple bank of optical readers to pass the dying rolls over, thus reading the position of the holes in the paper by light instead of by mechanical means...... along with freezing the paper to a very certain point where they would survive the process....... Now those very rare pieces of music, many so very rare that only one copy of a piece exists in many cases...... Are now encoded computer files that can be played back on contemporary computers, keyboards/ midi, and any standard music player if you use the follow-up modern audio formats. This was done about 15 years ago. If it wasn't done, the almost 200 year old music would have been lost forever............... Yup, we do convert old media to new media more than we might first expect. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Apr 1, 2008, at 6:12 PM, railwaymodeler wrote: > Going off topic a bit but I can't resist: > > Sigh. I'm playing 75+ year old 78 RPMs wihout any problem (Some are > almost 90 years old, yet!), have been doing so for several years now > without problems, and expect to keep doing so. I fully expect my old > Bluebirds and Victors to well outlast their CD 'remastered' junk > counterparts. > > Off topic, I know, but I really, really, could not resist pointing > this out. > > -Steve N. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: >> >> I expect to keep backing up the back-ups over the years. >> >> I've got a few gold-level cd's used for 100-year archiving and will >> see about getting the similar dvd's as well. >> >> The way things go, we will likely have new media to copy to in new >> formats and huge new capacities every 5-years or so. 10 or so years >> from now, we could be laser-writing in 3d layers to crystal memory >> chips or something just as exotic.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6057	From: John Barlow	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Seconding Vinegar (Was: HO brass locomotive Question)

Just caught this, and a guy at Caboose Hobbies in Denver was talking about this very thing. You can heat up the vinegar a tad to help...not boiling hot for sure. Sounds like a winner.   John mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: I had never heard of that before but I will give it a try. It has got to be safer than MEK! Thanks for the tip! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Howard R Garner <cascaderail@ ...> wrote: > > > One of the best methods is to use vinegar. > Seams to desolve the old foam with minimal scrubbing. > I have treated many a pair of CV trucks that way. > > Howard Garner > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6058	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Seconding Vinegar (Was: HO brass locomotive Question)

Perhaps--double duty here--run the vinegar thru the coffee maker to clean out the scale, then use the warmed vinegar to clean the foam off the brass.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: John Barlow To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Seconding Vinegar (Was: HO brass locomotive Question) Just caught this, and a guy at Caboose Hobbies in Denver was talking about this very thing. You can heat up the vinegar a tad to help...not boiling hot for sure. Sounds like a winner.   John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6059	From: Ted Walton	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

Mike, I now know how to convert the several hundred player piano rolls I have (maybe), but how do I convert my several hundred rolls (maybe a couple thousand) 8mm and super 8 movie film to DVD? Probably not cheep or easy. Ted Walton >Posted by: "Mike Bauers" <mailto:mwbauers55@...?Subject= Re%3A%20Some%20Enter%20TRAINMENT%20%21>mwbauers55@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/mwbauers>mwbauers Wed Apr 2, 2008 2:56 am .... But aren't you very glad you missed out on the major problems with the older player piano rolls that by now were so fragile that they can't survive being played back on their players without falling apart?? I say were, because a salvage project made a simple bank of optical readers to pass the dying rolls over, thus reading the position of the holes in the paper by light instead of by mechanical means...... along with freezing the paper to a very certain point where they would survive the process.......Yup, we do convert old media to new media more than we might first expect.< -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1352 - Release Date: 3/31/2008 10:13 AM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6060	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

Ted, One way would be to get that box that has the 45 degree mirror inside to turn the movie projector image 90 degrees to be recorded by a digital camera.  It was made for Tape cameras to record the image.  Which if you have a VHS camcorder you could use and then get the “Unconverter” for $50 to $100 to go from Analog to Digital. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ted Walton Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 6:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Some Enter TRAINMENT !   Mike, I now know how to convert the several hundred player piano rolls I have (maybe), but how do I convert my several hundred rolls (maybe a couple thousand) 8mm and super 8 movie film to DVD? Probably not cheep or easy. Ted Walton >Posted by: "Mike Bauers" <mailto: href="mailto:mwbauers55%40wi.rr.com">mwbauers55@wi. rr.com?Subject= Re%3A%20Some% 20Enter%20TRAINM ENT%20%21>mwbauers55@wi. rr.com <http://profiles. yahoo.com/ mwbauers>mwbauers Wed Apr 2, 2008 2:56 am .... But aren't you very glad you missed out on the major problems with the older player piano rolls that by now were so fragile that they can't survive being played back on their players without falling apart?? I say were, because a salvage project made a simple bank of optical readers to pass the dying rolls over, thus reading the position of the holes in the paper by light instead of by mechanical means...... along with freezing the paper to a very certain point where they would survive the process..... ..Yup, we do convert old media to new media more than we might first expect.< -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1352 - Release Date: 3/31/2008 10:13 AM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6061	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Some Enter TRAINMENT !

I have the same problem with similar film stock I have here......... You can do it through a camcorder -IF- you have a model that will lock- down the 'white-balance' focus of the computer.......... You can then record the film on a white wall through the camcorder; either on tape or directly through it to a computer interface. They make small transfer screens as table-top models for the same trick. The real key is to have that setting available on your camcorder. I wonder if one of those X-10 cameras I have here can do it with it's automatic settings ????? Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 2, 2008, at 5:30 PM, Ted Walton wrote: > > > Mike, > I now know how to convert the several hundred player piano rolls I > have (maybe), but how do I convert my several hundred rolls (maybe a > couple thousand) 8mm and super 8 movie film to DVD? Probably not > cheep or easy. > Ted Walton > > > >> Posted by: "Mike Bauers" > > Wed Apr 2, 2008 2:56 am > > .... But aren't you very glad you missed out on the major problems > with the older player piano rolls that by now were so fragile that > they can't survive being played back on their players without falling > apart?? I say were, because a salvage project made a simple bank of > optical > readers to pass the dying rolls over, thus reading the position of > the holes in the paper by light instead of by mechanical means...... > along with freezing the paper to a very certain point where they > would survive the process.......Yup, we do convert old media to new > media more than we might first expect.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6062	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: train club auction finds - trucks for Central Lines kits

Central Lines produced a fairly sophisticated line of wood passenger cars with sides made of a gray pressed thermolabile plastic. With care, they made into handsome models of cars, most of around the turn of the last century- but some into the more modern standard era (80'Harriman Diner, 70' ATSF channel sidesill baggage cars, 70' Harriman RPO). I have a number of these very interesting original kits, all in distinctive green boxes. I have a number of the loose sides, and about four completed cars on my layout. At some point, some kits also sold with identical pressed copper or zinc sides (I have two cars identical except for the two different sides). Both plastic and plastic sides were pressed from the same copper plates, and these plates were in turn were part of the broad series of plates that were used to form all of the Exacta lightweight HO, O and apparently S gauge plated lightweight car kits beginning in about 1948. Central Lines and Exacta were the same company. All the copper plates used in producing the sides and body shells were last owned by a custom locomotive builder, Ray____ in Mountain View, CA. He offered them to me in c. 1962. I declined, and I believe that they were then probably scrapped. Central LInes and Central Valley had no known business relationship, and they were separated by about 400 miles. Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6063	From: Stephen Lengal	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific

I was excited this past weekend because I came across my forth partial vintage Athearn Pacific at a show... I have been gathering them with the hope that I could eventually take all of the parts and make one complete piece. Along the way, I have noticed some very major differences between them, despite the fact that they are all of the same basic design. I was wondering if anyone could give me some information regarding the different production runs. Two of them have a direct drive, where there is a worm gear is attached directly to the motor shaft, and two of them have a gearbox. One of the gearbox equipped ones has metal drivers, and has a split frame that allows for electrical pickup, (allowing the loco to run independent of the tender), while the other three have plastic drivers. That seems to be the major difference. I have already taken the best parts of the worst three and made a running loco, using the metal driver version... and I am quite impressed with the results. It took some work, but I now have one vintage Athearn Pacific, (Running!), the only part(s) missing being the side pipes.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6064	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific

Stephen Lengal wrote: > I was excited this past weekend because I came across my forth partial > vintage Athearn Pacific at a show... I have been gathering them with > the hope that I could eventually take all of the parts and make one > complete piece. Along the way, I have noticed some very major > differences between them, despite the fact that they are all of the > same basic design. I was wondering if anyone could give me some > information regarding the different production runs. Two of them have > a direct drive, where there is a worm gear is attached directly to the > motor shaft, and two of them have a gearbox. One of the gearbox > equipped ones has metal drivers, and has a split frame that allows for > electrical pickup, (allowing the loco to run independent of the > tender), while the other three have plastic drivers. That seems to be > the major difference. I have already taken the best parts of the worst > three and made a running loco, using the metal driver version... and I > am quite impressed with the results. It took some work, but I now have > one vintage Athearn Pacific, (Running!), the only part(s) missing > being the side pipes. > > Is this the Pacific that is supposed to be an eastern Prototype ( B&M? ) Our club prez has a set, in the original box , lettered ATSF Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6065	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/2/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific

I have one--missing some parts, I think in the front end--can I get a list of what I need to you for your leftovers? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Lengal" <MRLENGAL2U@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO Athearn Pacific >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6066	From: Wobbly913	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific

I am in the process of doing the same thing...collecting Athearn Pacific engines to try to get enough parts to make one or two really nice operating models.  I currently have three of the earllier releases with the plastic drivers, power to the rear driver and pickup in the tender with HiF style wheel sets.  I also have one of the later production models with the metal drivers and pickup thru the drivers. The last one actually runs, the other three poorly run.   Wobbly913  Stephen Lengal <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote: I was excited this past weekend because I came across my forth partial vintage Athearn Pacific at a show... I have been gathering them with the hope that I could eventually take all of the parts and make one complete piece. Along the way, I have noticed some very major differences between them, despite the fact that they are all of the same basic design. I was wondering if anyone could give me some information regarding the different production runs. Two of them have a direct drive, where there is a worm gear is attached directly to the motor shaft, and two of them have a gearbox. One of the gearbox equipped ones has metal drivers, and has a split frame that allows for electrical pickup, (allowing the loco to run independent of the tender), while the other three have plastic drivers. That seems to be the major difference. I have already taken the best parts of the worst three and made a running loco, using the metal driver version... and I am quite impressed with the results. It took some work, but I now have one vintage Athearn Pacific, (Running!), the only part(s) missing being the side pipes. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6067	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Central Lines kits

Hi Denny, I collect Exacta / Central Lines kits for some years and want to send some observations I made: > Central Lines produced a fairly sophisticated line of wood passenger > cars with sides made of a gray pressed thermolabile plastic. With > care, they made into handsome models of cars, most of around the turn > of the last century- but some into the more modern standard era > (80'Harriman Diner, 70' ATSF channel sidesill baggage cars, 70' > Harriman RPO). > Have never seen those three models, nor any other Harriman car by CL; neither in print nor actually - would be extremely interested in pictures/ any other info. > I have a number of these very interesting original kits, all in > distinctive green boxes. I have a number of the loose sides, and > about four completed cars on my layout. > Same here, several styles of green boxes, some marked Central Lines, earlier ones marked Exacta. Have completed maybe a dozen of those kits. > At some point, some kits also sold with identical pressed copper or > zinc sides (I have two cars identical except for the two different > sides). Both plastic and plastic sides were pressed from the same > copper plates, and these plates were in turn were part of the broad > series of plates that were used to form all of the Exacta lightweight > HO, O and apparently S gauge plated lightweight car kits beginning in > about 1948. > I think the copper kits came first , then they changed over to plastic. Ads in RMC show copper streamliners in several scales in the fourties , under the Exacta (of Oregon) name, , then the "1898" series and vestibule series cars , still in copper, under the Central Lines name (Los Gatos, CA) in the early fifties, ... no ads for the plastic version. I have cars in both copper and plastic , although the outer side definitely comes from the same mold or plate ( defects in the same places) the inner side is different - for obvious reasons the plastic sides had to be thicker- wonder if they used another inner plate or modified the existing one? For some reason, I have accumulated plentyof 65 ft Vestibule end coaches, and countless 65 and 75 ft buffet - observations but havent seen some of the other types. Re the lightweights / streamliners ... there were "flat" kits , bare copper, in flat boxes ; and "pre - formed " ones , nickel plated , in the usual squarish boxes - I guess the flat kits came first? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6068	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific

Stephen,     In case no one has yet answered your question about the prototype for the Athearn Pacific, it is B&M.  Athearn produced the locomotive lettered for B&M and for several other popular railroads as well including Santa Fe.                                                                                                                                                             Lou On 4/3/08 2:00 AM, "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> wrote:   Stephen Lengal wrote: > I was excited this past weekend because I came across my forth partial > vintage Athearn Pacific at a show... I have been gathering them with > the hope that I could eventually take all of the parts and make one > complete piece. Along the way, I have noticed some very major > differences between them, despite the fact that they are all of the > same basic design. I was wondering if anyone could give me some > information regarding the different production runs. Two of them have > a direct drive, where there is a worm gear is attached directly to the > motor shaft, and two of them have a gearbox. One of the gearbox > equipped ones has metal drivers, and has a split frame that allows for > electrical pickup, (allowing the loco to run independent of the > tender), while the other three have plastic drivers. That seems to be > the major difference. I have already taken the best parts of the worst > three and made a running loco, using the metal driver version... and I > am quite impressed with the results. It took some work, but I now have > one vintage Athearn Pacific, (Running!), the only part(s) missing > being the side pipes. > >    Is this the Pacific that is supposed to be an eastern Prototype ( B&M? )  Our club prez has a set, in the original box , lettered ATSF Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6069	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Athearn Pacific

The history of the Athearn original Pacific is fascinating. It was originally designed to be one of three steam locos released by Athearn in plastic using the Hi-F (rubber-band) drive and allow Athearn to capture the low-end market for steam locos. The locos (the B&M Pacific, the USRA 0-6-0, and the "Little Monster" 0-4-2 were listed in Athearn promotional literature to dealers in 1956. But they were delayed due to problems with the Hi-F drive. Eventually by the late 50s all three came out in geared form, and even then, each succeeding run had different details and even different motors and gears. None ran well, but all were nicely done castings and it is too bad they didn't stay on the market. The 0-6-0 was years ahead of its time in accurate proportions. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Lengal" <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote: > > I was excited this past weekend because I came across my forth partial > vintage Athearn Pacific at a show... I have been gathering them with > the hope that I could eventually take all of the parts and make one > complete piece. Along the way, I have noticed some very major > differences between them, despite the fact that they are all of the > same basic design. I was wondering if anyone could give me some > information regarding the different production runs. Two of them have > a direct drive, where there is a worm gear is attached directly to the > motor shaft, and two of them have a gearbox. One of the gearbox > equipped ones has metal drivers, and has a split frame that allows for > electrical pickup, (allowing the loco to run independent of the > tender), while the other three have plastic drivers. That seems to be > the major difference. I have already taken the best parts of the worst > three and made a running loco, using the metal driver version... and I > am quite impressed with the results. It took some work, but I now have > one vintage Athearn Pacific, (Running!), the only part(s) missing > being the side pipes. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6070	From: Al Campbell	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Lindberg Trains

Hello: Can anyone give me some information regarding the Lindberg Model Train Co. From what I have found out, the present company is producing autos,trucks,planes and boats, no trains. I would like to get in touch with the former owners. A name or a contact would be helpful. Thanks for any assistance. Al Campbell

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6071	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

Hi Al: Good luck on finding any connections with the old Lindberg line. I think it has been turned over several times in ownership, and maybe the train line sold off long ago. A similar situation occured with Revell in the 1950s. They used to make trains, but someone (I don't recall who) bought their line train and put them out of the model train business. Dave F ************** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6072	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

I think that they were originally a "General Plastic Model" company. Most of the train stuff came later. I'm thinking about late 1940's--I think that back then they were the ones who brought out an HO version of the CNW "Pioneer"--I recall building one. I think that the plastic shots from this kit became masters for Kemtron's version that was powered with a Lindsay "Teaspoon of Power". Their later offerings included what may have been the first HO trucks in Delrin. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Lindberg Trains >From what I have found out, the present company is producing > autos,trucks,planes and boats, no trains.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6073	From: BillyDee53@aol.com	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

Someone in Ohio or Indiana still makes the Lindberg trucks...IIRC the name is something like E&B models? Bill ************** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6074	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

I liked those trucks. I paid 89 cents for a pair of them in a hobby shop once. Later, I found a case (12 pair) for $5 at a train show. They are some of the best rolling trucks I have. And they are sprung!   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: BillyDee53@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Lindberg Trains Someone in Ohio or Indiana still makes the Lindberg trucks...IIRC the name is something like E&B models? Bill ************** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6075	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

Some of the Revell rolling stock dies showqed up later under the Heljan and ConCor names.  The original Kato NW-2 imported by Con-Cor under their own name used the Revell switcher body.  Buildings and vehicles, ConCor (made by Heljan)  Heljan, and IHC.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Lindberg Trains Hi Al: Good luck on finding any connections with the old Lindberg line. I think it has been turned over several times in ownership, and maybe the train line sold off long ago. A similar situation occured with Revell in the 1950s. They used to make trains, but someone (I don't recall who) bought their line train and put them out of the model train business. Dave F ************** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6076	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 4/3/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

I have several sets of the EB Products Bettendorf Trucks and really like them.  The addy on the label is EB Products, PO Box 0147, Glenview, IL 60025.   These trucks; if still available come in the following HO styles according to the label: Bettendorf: Black, Light Gray, Box Car Red, Tuscan Red, UP Dark Gray; Steel Axles,                  Brass Axles, Brass Wheels and Axles. Andrews: Black, Light Gray, Gray; Steel Axles, Brass Axles, Brass Wheels and Axles. National Timken: Black, Light Gray, Gray; Steel Axles, Brass Axles, Brass Wheels and Axles. I have had these for several years and do not know if the comp. is still doing them. Hope this is good info for anyone who may be wanting such. Larry BillyDee53@... wrote: Someone in Ohio or Indiana still makes the Lindberg trucks...IIRC the name is something like E&B models? Bill ************ ** Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel. aol.com/travel- guide/united- states?ncid= aoltrv0003000000 0016) GROWING OLD IS MANDATORY, GROWING UP IS OPTIONAL You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6077	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 4/4/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

Thanks to all that responded regarding Lindberg. Groups like this and the internet are quite a resource. Al Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6078	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

The Lindberg trains were made in Germany in the 1950s. They were years ahead of their time in some ways. I have an SW-1 (B&O) that is a good runner. They used to show up on eBay but now that I have one I haven't kept track of new listings. Since Lindberg didn't actually own the dies, all of the items were simply a product line they offered during the 1950s "HO Boom." I remember them well as a kid but had to wait until I was 57 before I owned one. One of the history sites that was posted on this group last year had a good history of their trains, just as with the Revell line. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@...> wrote: > > Hello: Can anyone give me some information regarding the Lindberg Model > Train Co. From what I have found out, the present company is producing > autos,trucks,planes and boats, no trains. I would like to get in touch > with the former owners. A name or a contact would be helpful. Thanks > for any assistance. Al Campbell >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6079	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

This wouldn't happen to be the site, would it? http://ho-scaletrains.net/revellhoscaletrainsresource/index.html Seems to be a part of a bunch of linked sites for various old HO scale builders. Check out the links they offer to other builders. -Steve N. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: > > The Lindberg trains were made in Germany in the 1950s. They were years > ahead of their time in some ways. I have an SW-1 (B&O) that is a good > runner. They used to show up on eBay but now that I have one I haven't > kept track of new listings. > > Since Lindberg didn't actually own the dies, all of the items were > simply a product line they offered during the 1950s "HO Boom." I > remember them well as a kid but had to wait until I was 57 before I > owned one. > > One of the history sites that was posted on this group last year had a > good history of their trains, just as with the Revell line. > > Matt > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@> wrote: > > > > Hello: Can anyone give me some information regarding the Lindberg Model > > Train Co. From what I have found out, the present company is producing > > autos,trucks,planes and boats, no trains. I would like to get in touch > > with the former owners. A name or a contact would be helpful. Thanks > > for any assistance. Al Campbell > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6080	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

Hi again, Never mind my last post. Once again, I have confused Revell with Lindberg (And confused those two with Monogram many times- aren't they all connected now anyways?) Never mind me, I'll just go slink off somewhere. -Steve N. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > This wouldn't happen to be the site, would it? > > http://ho-scaletrains.net/revellhoscaletrainsresource/index.html > > Seems to be a part of a bunch of linked sites for various old HO scale > builders. Check out the links they offer to other builders. > > -Steve N. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@> > wrote: > > > > The Lindberg trains were made in Germany in the 1950s. They were years > > ahead of their time in some ways. I have an SW-1 (B&O) that is a good > > runner. They used to show up on eBay but now that I have one I haven't > > kept track of new listings. > > > > Since Lindberg didn't actually own the dies, all of the items were > > simply a product line they offered during the 1950s "HO Boom." I > > remember them well as a kid but had to wait until I was 57 before I > > owned one. > > > > One of the history sites that was posted on this group last year had a > > good history of their trains, just as with the Revell line. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello: Can anyone give me some information regarding the Lindberg > Model > > > Train Co. From what I have found out, the present company is > producing > > > autos,trucks,planes and boats, no trains. I would like to get in > touch > > > with the former owners. A name or a contact would be helpful. Thanks > > > for any assistance. Al Campbell > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6081	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains

Steve, As I opened the link a smile appeared on my face, as it is a site I have not seen before.  So thanks for posting it. I have to go look at in detail now.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of railwaymodeler Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 12:57 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains   Hi again, Never mind my last post. Once again, I have confused Revell with Lindberg (And confused those two with Monogram many times- aren't they all connected now anyways?) Never mind me, I'll just go slink off somewhere. -Steve N. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote: > > This wouldn't happen to be the site, would it? > > http://ho-scaletrai ns.net/revellhos caletrainsresour ce/index. html > > Seems to be a part of a bunch of linked sites for various old HO scale > builders. Check out the links they offer to other builders. > > -Steve N. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@ > > wrote: > > > > The Lindberg trains were made in w:st="on">Germany in the 1950s. They were years > > ahead of their time in some ways. I have an SW-1 (B&O) that is a good > > runner. They used to show up on eBay but now that I have one I haven't > > kept track of new listings. > > > > Since Lindberg didn't actually own the dies, all of the items were > > simply a product line they offered during the 1950s "HO Boom." I > > remember them well as a kid but had to wait until I was 57 before I > > owned one. > > > > One of the history sites that was posted on this group last year had a > > good history of their trains, just as with the Revell line. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hello: Can anyone give me some information regarding the Lindberg > Model > > > Train Co. From what I have found out, the present company is > producing > > > autos,trucks, planes and boats, no trains. I would like to get in > touch > > > with the former owners. A name or a contact would be helpful. Thanks > > > for any assistance. Al Campbell > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6082	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains

I looked at the site and it's a nice one.  Focuses on ready-to-run.  Be sure to check out the "Hobo" engine that runs on batteries.  I've sure never heard of that.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:00 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains Steve, As I opened the link a smile appeared on my face, as it is a site I have not seen before.  So thanks for posting it. I have to go look at in detail now. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of railwaymodeler Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 12:57 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains Hi again, Never mind my last post. Once again, I have confused Revell with Lindberg (And confused those two with Monogram many times- aren't they all connected now anyways?) Never mind me, I'll just go slink off somewhere. -Steve N. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote: > > This wouldn't happen to be the site, would it? > > http://ho-scaletrai ns.net/revellhos caletrainsresour ce/index. html > > Seems to be a part of a bunch of linked sites for various old HO scale > builders. Check out the links they offer to other builders. > > -Steve N. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@ > > wrote: > > > > The Lindberg trains were made in Germany in the 1950s. They were years > > ahead of their time in some ways. I have an SW-1 (B&O) that is a good > > runner. They used to show up on eBay but now that I have one I haven't > > kept track of new listings. > > > > Since Lindberg didn't actually own the dies, all of the items were > > simply a product line they offered during the 1950s "HO Boom." I > > remember them well as a kid but had to wait until I was 57 before I > > owned one. > > > > One of the history sites that was posted on this group last year had a > > good history of their trains, just as with the Revell line. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hello: Can anyone give me some information regarding the Lindberg > Model > > > Train Co. From what I have found out, the present company is > producing > > > autos,trucks, planes and boats, no trains. I would like to get in > touch > > > with the former owners. A name or a contact would be helpful. Thanks > > > for any assistance. Al Campbell > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6083	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/5/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains

I remember that one--had a Globe F-7 body--got one for Christmas one year -- ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains I looked at the site and it's a nice one.  Focuses on ready-to-run.  Be sure to check out the "Hobo" engine that runs on batteries.  I've sure never heard of that.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:00 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains Steve, As I opened the link a smile appeared on my face, as it is a site I have not seen before.  So thanks for posting it. I have to go look at in detail now. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of railwaymodeler Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 12:57 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains Hi again, Never mind my last post. Once again, I have confused Revell with Lindberg (And confused those two with Monogram many times- aren't they all connected now anyways?) Never mind me, I'll just go slink off somewhere. -Steve N. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote: > > This wouldn't happen to be the site, would it? > > http://ho-scaletrai ns.net/revellhos caletrainsresour ce/index. html > > Seems to be a part of a bunch of linked sites for various old HO scale > builders. Check out the links they offer to other builders. > > -Steve N. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@ > > wrote: > > > > The Lindberg trains were made in Germany in the 1950s. They were years > > ahead of their time in some ways. I have an SW-1 (B&O) that is a good > > runner. They used to show up on eBay but now that I have one I haven't > > kept track of new listings. > > > > Since Lindberg didn't actually own the dies, all of the items were > > simply a product line they offered during the 1950s "HO Boom." I > > remember them well as a kid but had to wait until I was 57 before I > > owned one. > > > > One of the history sites that was posted on this group last year had a > > good history of their trains, just as with the Revell line. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hello: Can anyone give me some information regarding the Lindberg > Model > > > Train Co. From what I have found out, the present company is > producing > > > autos,trucks, planes and boats, no trains. I would like to get in > touch > > > with the former owners. A name or a contact would be helpful. Thanks > > > for any assistance. Al Campbell > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6084	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

Steve, Actually, that is a completely new one for me. Thanks for posting the link!! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > This wouldn't happen to be the site, would it? > > http://ho-scaletrains.net/revellhoscaletrainsresource/index.html > > Seems to be a part of a bunch of linked sites for various old HO scale > builders. Check out the links they offer to other builders. > > -Steve N. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@> > wrote: > > > > The Lindberg trains were made in Germany in the 1950s. They were years > > ahead of their time in some ways. I have an SW-1 (B&O) that is a good > > runner. They used to show up on eBay but now that I have one I haven't > > kept track of new listings. > > > > Since Lindberg didn't actually own the dies, all of the items were > > simply a product line they offered during the 1950s "HO Boom." I > > remember them well as a kid but had to wait until I was 57 before I > > owned one. > > > > One of the history sites that was posted on this group last year had a > > good history of their trains, just as with the Revell line. > > > > Matt > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello: Can anyone give me some information regarding the Lindberg > Model > > > Train Co. From what I have found out, the present company is > producing > > > autos,trucks,planes and boats, no trains. I would like to get in > touch > > > with the former owners. A name or a contact would be helpful. Thanks > > > for any assistance. Al Campbell > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6085	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lindberg Trains

Steve, No! Don't apologize -- this is a great site and as I said in my previous post one that I wasn't aware of. This is a great site with a lot of history that I wasn't aware of. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > Hi again, > > Never mind my last post. Once again, I have confused Revell with > Lindberg (And confused those two with Monogram many times- aren't they > all connected now anyways?) Never mind me, I'll just go slink off > somewhere. > > -Steve N. > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" > <computersystemrebuild@> wrote: > > > > This wouldn't happen to be the site, would it? > > > > http://ho-scaletrains.net/revellhoscaletrainsresource/index.html > > > > Seems to be a part of a bunch of linked sites for various old HO scale > > builders. Check out the links they offer to other builders. > > > > -Steve N. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@> > > wrote: > > > > > > The Lindberg trains were made in Germany in the 1950s. They were years > > > ahead of their time in some ways. I have an SW-1 (B&O) that is a good > > > runner. They used to show up on eBay but now that I have one I haven't > > > kept track of new listings. > > > > > > Since Lindberg didn't actually own the dies, all of the items were > > > simply a product line they offered during the 1950s "HO Boom." I > > > remember them well as a kid but had to wait until I was 57 before I > > > owned one. > > > > > > One of the history sites that was posted on this group last year had a > > > good history of their trains, just as with the Revell line. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Al Campbell" <madchemep2@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello: Can anyone give me some information regarding the Lindberg > > Model > > > > Train Co. From what I have found out, the present company is > > producing > > > > autos,trucks,planes and boats, no trains. I would like to get in > > touch > > > > with the former owners. A name or a contact would be helpful. > Thanks > > > > for any assistance. Al Campbell > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6086	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Revell building kits (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains

That is a great link. Looking at it, I discovered that I bought and built almost every one of the Revell building kits when they were new, and I still have them on my layout. The only problem was that the window "glass" was printed on acetate sheets and didn't hold up with the glue I had available at the time. But the level of detail was superb, even compared to today's plastic models buildings - grained wood and shingles, broken boards, etc. I never bought any of the other Revell stuff - rolling stock or "action" accessories. Some of these and other vintage stuff can be seen at <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/> Mike mmattjcoleman wrote: > > > Steve, > > Actually, that is a completely new one for me. Thanks for posting the > link!! > > Matt > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, > "railwaymodeler" > <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > > > This wouldn't happen to be the site, would it? > > > > http://ho-scaletrains.net/revellhoscaletrainsresource/index.html > <http://ho-scaletrains.net/revellhoscaletrainsresource/index.html> > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6087	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: The Resurrection Continues

Hi Ya'll, I have finally gotten Resurrecting The Dinosaurs back on track, (pun intended of course), so here are parts 2.7 and 2.8, its beginning to finally take shape. A couple of weeks back, I had a piece of the frame of the 4-6-2 break off while doing a small adjustment for the guide yolks, I then had to wait for another frame to come from a source on ebay, when I got that frame, I quickly discovered that the frame I had been working with didn't use axle bushings, while this isn't a problem, the axles are still the same diameter, and I had what I thought was a full set of axle bushings to fit the 4-6-2, as it turned out, I was missing one bushing, naturally this put a delay in everything else, so I got hold of Dan at Yardbird Classic Trains, he sold me a set of bushings, now I have the mechanism back together, and have started the plastic surgery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6_uC50UYdM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYaSYrT1TGE Gary W You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6088	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Revell building kits

Hi Mike, Thanks for the link to your site, nice to see those pieces. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Sloane Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 9:50 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Revell building kits (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains   That is a great link. Looking at it, I discovered that I bought and built almost every one of the Revell building kits when they were new, and I still have them on my layout. The only problem was that the window "glass" was printed on acetate sheets and didn't hold up with the glue I had available at the time. But the level of detail was superb, even compared to today's plastic models buildings - grained wood and shingles, broken boards, etc. I never bought any of the other Revell stuff - rolling stock or "action" accessories. Some of these and other vintage stuff can be seen at <http://public. fotki.com/ mikesloane/ vintage-model- rr/> Mike

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6089	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits

One of the ideas I once had (that I'll never get around to - does that happen to anyone else?) was to have several towns on a layout with names like Revell, Atlas, and Alexander with only structures in each from each manufacturer.   I remember the ads for structural shapes that always prominently showed LICHTZ and thought a town with that name, with perhaps some construction going on with such shapes, would also be interesting.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 8:21 AM Subject: [vintageHO] RE:Revell building kits Hi Mike, Thanks for the link to your site, nice to see those pieces. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Sloane Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 9:50 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM] Revell building kits (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg Trains That is a great link. Looking at it, I discovered that I bought and built almost every one of the Revell building kits when they were new, and I still have them on my layout. The only problem was that the window "glass" was printed on acetate sheets and didn't hold up with the glue I had available at the time. But the level of detail was superb, even compared to today's plastic models buildings - grained wood and shingles, broken boards, etc. I never bought any of the other Revell stuff - rolling stock or "action" accessories. Some of these and other vintage stuff can be seen at <http://public. fotki.com/ mikesloane/ vintage-model- rr/> Mike

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6090	From: Rick Jones	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits

ckinzer@... wrote: > One of the ideas I once had (that I'll never get around to - does that > happen to anyone else?) was to have several towns on a layout with names > like Revell, Atlas, and Alexander with only structures in each from each > manufacturer. I always have liked the idea that the Pasadena (CA) Model Railroad Club uses - cities are named alphabetically from Alhambra to Zion. I have been planning to use the same idea on my future layout. More recently I've thought of naming the towns or locations - again in alphabetical order - after famous model railroaders or people who've had a significant effect on the hobby. So the towns could be named from (John) Allen to (Howard) Zane. I don't have a full list of names yet without some research, and some initials like X and Q might be tough to come up with. Then there's the letters for which there are multiple good choices. In addition to John Allen there's also the possibility of Irv Athearn. And W is a real hard decision - (Linn) Wescott, (Jack) Work, (Bill) Walthers. > I remember the ads for structural shapes that always prominently showed > LICHTZ and thought a town with that name, with perhaps some construction > going on with such shapes, would also be interesting. I think I recall somebody actually doing that on a layout that was published in MR quite some years ago. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Families are like fudge - mostly sweet but with a few nuts.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6091	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits

I still have a little industrial building with "PLASTICVILLE MFG" molded into the front. I thought I was brilliant (in my teens back in the 1950s) to carefully modify it to read "PLASTIC TILE MFG." :-) I suppose that there were other buildings released by the same manufacturer with the "Plasticville" theme, but I don't recall. Most of their stuff was O scale, if memory serves. Mike ckinzer@... wrote: > > > One of the ideas I once had (that I'll never get around to - does that > happen to anyone else?) was to have several towns on a layout with names > like Revell, Atlas, and Alexander with only structures in each from each > manufacturer. > > I remember the ads for structural shapes that always prominently showed > LICHTZ and thought a town with that name, with perhaps some construction > going on with such shapes, would also be interesting. > > Chuck Kinzer >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6092	From: Charles Windes	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: The Resurrection Continues Re

Gary You got some intresting video there, keeping watch on them. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: all-railroads@yahoogroups.com, HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] The Resurrection Continues Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Hi Ya'll, I have finally gotten Resurrecting The Dinosaurs back on track, (pun intended of course), so here are parts 2.7 and 2.8, its beginning to finally take shape. A couple of weeks back, I had a piece of the frame of the 4-6-2 break off while doing a small adjustment for the guide yolks, I then had to wait for another frame to come from a source on ebay, when I got that frame, I quickly discovered that the frame I had been working with didn't use axle bushings, while this isn't a problem, the axles are still the same diameter, and I had what I thought was a full set of axle bushings to fit the 4-6-2, as it turned out, I was missing one bushing, naturally this put a delay in everything else, so I got hold of Dan at Yardbird Classic Trains, he sold me a set of bushings, now I have the mechanism back together, and have started the plastic surgery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6_uC50UYdM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYaSYrT1TGE Gary W You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6093	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE:Revell building kits > ckinzer@... wrote: >> One of the ideas I once had (that I'll never get around to - does that >> happen to anyone else?) was to have several towns on a layout with names >> like Revell, Atlas, and Alexander with only structures in each from each >> manufacturer. > > I always have liked the idea that the Pasadena (CA) Model Railroad > Club uses - cities are named alphabetically from Alhambra to Zion. I > have been planning to use the same idea on my future layout. > More recently I've thought of naming the towns or locations - again > in alphabetical order - after famous model railroaders or people who've > had a significant effect on the hobby. So the towns could be named from > (John) Allen to (Howard) Zane. I don't have a full list of names yet > without some research, and some initials like X and Q might be tough to > come up with. Then there's the letters for which there are multiple good > choices. In addition to John Allen there's also the possibility of Irv > Athearn. And W is a real hard decision - (Linn) Wescott, (Jack) Work, > (Bill) Walthers. > >> I remember the ads for structural shapes that always prominently showed >> LICHTZ and thought a town with that name, with perhaps some construction >> going on with such shapes, would also be interesting. > > I think I recall somebody actually doing that on a layout that was > published in MR quite some years ago. I dsidn't see on a layout, but there was a cartoon in MR using it. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6094	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits

the "LICHTZ" depot did appear in a cartoon, probably in MR.  ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE:Revell building kits

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6095	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: Re: Revell building kits

also (John) Armstrong. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE:Revell building kits

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6096	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 4/6/2008
Subject: JAPANESE VARNEY?

Attachments : Attached are pictures of two freight cars I have not encountered before, the sides are metal reminescent of the varney metal cars.  It appears the floor and ends are one piece plastic and the roof is another piece, note the neat flat head screw in the roof holding them together.  The reefer had a roof like the boxcar, no hatches.  The trucks look like a Mantua copy.  Not bad cars but less than the originals I think.   Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6097	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/7/2008
Subject: Re: The Resurrection Continues Re

Hi Charlie, Thank you, I appreciate that, not that I'm getting rich at this of course, but I certainly enjoy doing it.......:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 3:14:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Resurrection Continues Re Gary You got some intresting video there, keeping watch on them. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: all-railroads@ yahoogroups. com, HOrailroading@ yahoogroups. com, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [vintageHO] The Resurrection Continues Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Hi Ya'll, I have finally gotten Resurrecting The Dinosaurs back on track, (pun intended of course), so here are parts 2.7 and 2.8, its beginning to finally take shape. A couple of weeks back, I had a piece of the frame of the 4-6-2 break off while doing a small adjustment for the guide yolks, I then had to wait for another frame to come from a source on ebay, when I got that frame, I quickly discovered that the frame I had been working with didn't use axle bushings, while this isn't a problem, the axles are still the same diameter, and I had what I thought was a full set of axle bushings to fit the 4-6-2, as it turned out, I was missing one bushing, naturally this put a delay in everything else, so I got hold of Dan at Yardbird Classic Trains, he sold me a set of bushings, now I have the mechanism back together, and have started the plastic surgery. http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=D6_uC50UYdM http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=mYaSYrT1TGE Gary W You rock. That's why Blockbuster' s offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6098	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/7/2008
Subject: Re: The Resurrection Continues Re

Gary, I sent you an email to your account about some questions on your caboose video, Did you get it? Cordially, Gerry D http://kitbash.ourpage.com --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > Hi Charlie, > > Thank you, I appreciate that, not that I'm getting > rich at this of course, but I certainly enjoy doing > it.......:o) > > Gary W > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 3:14:59 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Resurrection Continues > Re > > > > Gary > You got some intresting video there, keeping watch > on them. > Charlie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Woodard" > To: all-railroads@ yahoogroups. com, HOrailroading@ > yahoogroups. com, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [vintageHO] The Resurrection Continues > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) > > > Hi Ya'll, > > I have finally gotten Resurrecting The Dinosaurs > back on track, (pun intended of course), so here are > parts 2.7 and 2.8, its beginning to finally take > shape. > > A couple of weeks back, I had a piece of the frame > of the 4-6-2 break off while doing a small > adjustment for the guide yolks, I then had to wait > for another frame to come from a source on ebay, > when I got that frame, I quickly discovered that the > frame I had been working with didn't use axle > bushings, while this isn't a problem, the axles are > still the same diameter, and I had what I thought > was a full set of axle bushings to fit the 4-6-2, as > it turned out, I was missing one bushing, naturally > this put a delay in everything else, so I got hold > of Dan at Yardbird Classic Trains, he sold me a set > of bushings, now I have the mechanism back together, > and have started the plastic surgery. > > http://www.youtube com/watch? v=D6_uC50UYdM > > http://www.youtube com/watch? v=mYaSYrT1TGE > > Gary W > > > ________________________________ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster' s offering you > one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > -- > Want an e-mail address like mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one > month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6099	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/7/2008
Subject: Re: The Resurrection Continues Re

Hi Gerry, Did you send it to my email account, which is betsy662@..., or did you send a message to my youtube mail, there were no messages in the inbox. Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 7, 2008 2:34:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Resurrection Continues Re Gary, I sent you an email to your account about some questions on your caboose video, Did you get it? Cordially, Gerry D http://kitbash. ourpage.com --- Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote: > Hi Charlie, > > Thank you, I appreciate that, not that I'm getting > rich at this of course, but I certainly enjoy doing > it.......:o) > > Gary W > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Charles Windes <cwindes@mindless. com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 3:14:59 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Resurrection Continues > Re > > > > Gary > You got some intresting video there, keeping watch > on them. > Charlie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Woodard" > To: all-railroads@ yahoogroups. com, HOrailroading@ > yahoogroups. com, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [vintageHO] The Resurrection Continues > Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) > > > Hi Ya'll, > > I have finally gotten Resurrecting The Dinosaurs > back on track, (pun intended of course), so here are > parts 2.7 and 2.8, its beginning to finally take > shape. > > A couple of weeks back, I had a piece of the frame > of the 4-6-2 break off while doing a small > adjustment for the guide yolks, I then had to wait > for another frame to come from a source on ebay, > when I got that frame, I quickly discovered that the > frame I had been working with didn't use axle > bushings, while this isn't a problem, the axles are > still the same diameter, and I had what I thought > was a full set of axle bushings to fit the 4-6-2, as > it turned out, I was missing one bushing, naturally > this put a delay in everything else, so I got hold > of Dan at Yardbird Classic Trains, he sold me a set > of bushings, now I have the mechanism back together, > and have started the plastic surgery. > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=D6_uC50UYdM > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=mYaSYrT1TGE > > Gary W > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster' s offering you > one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > -- > Want an e-mail address like mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster' s offering you one > month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. > http://tc.deals. yahoo.com/ tc/blockbuster/ text5.com ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ You rock. That's why Blockbuster' s offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals. yahoo.com/ tc/blockbuster/ text5.com You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6100	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Hello!

Dear Vintage HO-ers, Hello! I am new to the group and have some vintage HO cardboard kit houses from the 1940s. I love these and am trying to find out what they are called or any other info on them. They have brick painting on the outside and cellophane windows. Thank you in advance for any information you can give me!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6101	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!

--- khrhyne <khrhyne@...> wrote: > Dear Vintage HO-ers, Hello! I am new to the group > and have some > vintage HO cardboard kit houses from the 1940s. I > love these and am > trying to find out what they are called or any other > info on them. > They have brick painting on the outside and > cellophane windows. > Thank you in advance for any information you can > give me! > > > Hi, I remember them well! We had them under the tree with the old 027 trains at Christmas time when I was growing up. As to what they are called, I wish I could help you. We always just called them the "cardboard houses"! If you ever find a more proper name, let me know. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6102	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: We Finally Finished It

Hey Ya'll, Well! Its pretty well put together now, I just need to get some things worked out, some detail painting done, and the decals on the tender, and the 4-6-2 project is finished, and ready to be put into service, the engine will be lettered for the West Hernando Central, and will primarily be used for pulling passenger runs between Tallahassee and Tampa, via Florida's west coast line. The cars I will be pulling with it usually are older Athearn streamlined passenger cars, right now they are lettered for Amtrak, however, that will change, here are the final three videos in this series.....:o) http://youtube.com/watch?v=OPyDi2nd-lA http://youtube.com/watch?v=CA3RAdoHmWE http://youtube.com/watch?v=f5TyDH4i3ls Gary W __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6103	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!

As best I can recall....... One major make of those was Ideal models........ at least 'Ideal' something ......... We might be returning to those with the great results we get from computer builder programs and moderately low-cost cnc-cutters. Respectively, that's $20-$50 and $200-$600 .......... Using an Exacto knife and metal straight edge for the cutting works well too. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 10, 2008, at 7:50 AM, khrhyne wrote: > Dear Vintage HO-ers, Hello! I am new to the group and have some > vintage HO cardboard kit houses from the 1940s. I love these and am > trying to find out what they are called or any other info on them. > They have brick painting on the outside and cellophane windows. > Thank you in advance for any information you can give me!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6104	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!

I have the "Model builder" software, I am happy with what I've done so far. On a more vintage note, I used to have fun with the Carsten's "Cutout city" books, and in more recent years the books from Dover Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello! > As best I can recall....... > > One major make of those was Ideal models........ at least 'Ideal' > something ......... > > We might be returning to those with the great results we get from > computer builder programs and moderately low-cost cnc-cutters. > > Respectively, that's $20-$50 and $200-$600 .......... Using an Exacto > knife and metal straight edge for the cutting works well too. > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 7:50 AM, khrhyne wrote: > >> Dear Vintage HO-ers, Hello! I am new to the group and have some >> vintage HO cardboard kit houses from the 1940s. I love these and am >> trying to find out what they are called or any other info on them. >> They have brick painting on the outside and cellophane windows. >> Thank you in advance for any information you can give me! > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6105	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > >Thanks for the great memory, Gerry! I'll keep hunting for them. I think they are quite rare and therefore little is known of them. Kathryn the 1940s. I > > love these and am > > trying to find out what they are called or any other > > info on them. > > They have brick painting on the outside and > > cellophane windows. > > Thank you in advance for any information you can > > give me! > > > > > > > Hi, > I remember them well! We had them under the tree with > the old 027 trains at Christmas time when I was > growing up. As to what they are called, I wish I could > help you. We always just called them the "cardboard > houses"! > > If you ever find a more proper name, let me know. > > Cordially, > Gerry > http://kitbash.ourpage.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6106	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!

Thanks for the great info, Mike. I will research more about "Ideal." Kathryn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6107	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/10/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!

Hi Don, Thanks for the info and brand names. I will do more research on Carsten and Dover. Kathryn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6108	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Hello!

You'll love the Dover books........... The Carstens books went out of print about 1960. I was lucky to find the two types of those in the early '70's...... I never cut mine up. I saved them for future use......... I'm thinking it's about time to scan and print the duplicates out for cutting. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Apr 10, 2008, at 8:21 PM, khrhyne wrote: > Hi Don, > > Thanks for the info and brand names. I will do more research on > Carsten > and Dover. > Kathryn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6109	From: Riverboy	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Help In Identifying Manufacturers

Attachments : Hello All,   I've attached two photos of models and I'm not sure who made them . I'd really appreciate any information.   If anyone needs additional information, please let me know.   Photo 1. Ammour Reefer   Stamped metal . Looks like all sides , ends and top separate . wood floor , no inner wood supports .   Photo 2. Passenger Cars   Stamped metal sides . Plastic end castings .Metal floors ( sub floors ? )

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6110	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers

Any markings on the bottom of the reefer? ; looks like some we've seen recently.  The passenger cars are Varney. No question about that.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 2:47 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Help In Identifying Manufacturers Hello All,   I've attached two photos of models and I'm not sure who made them . I'd really appreciate any information.   If anyone needs additional information, please let me know.   Photo 1. Ammour Reefer   Stamped metal . Looks like all sides , ends and top separate . wood floor , no inner wood supports .   Photo 2. Passenger Cars   Stamped metal sides . Plastic end castings .Metal floors ( sub floors ? )

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6111	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers

Hi Riverboy, The reefer looks to be Varney possibly, the observation is definately Varney.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 5:47:02 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Help In Identifying Manufacturers Hello All,   I've attached two photos of models and I'm not sure who made them . I'd really appreciate any information.   If anyone needs additional information, please let me know.   Photo 1. Ammour Reefer   Stamped metal . Looks like all sides , ends and top separate . wood floor , no inner wood supports .   Photo 2. Passenger Cars   Stamped metal sides . Plastic end castings .Metal floors ( sub floors ? )           __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6112	From: Riverboy	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers

Hi Gary,   Thanks to you and another member, I am confident on the passenger cars being Varney.   As for the Armour reefer, doing a bit of research on my own , it isn't , although it is similar.   I had forgotten I had a copy of " Grrenberg's Guide To Athearn Trains " .  Carefully reading the section on metal cars, I am almost 100% sure it is an early Athearn piece , as it has all the paint , lettering and construction features mentioned, as well as it has one of the car numbers listed .   Thanks again to all who helped .   Tod ( Riverboy ) Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: Hi Riverboy, The reefer looks to be Varney possibly, the observation is definately Varney...... ...:o) Gary W .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6113	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers

Hi Tod, Thanks for letting me know that, I can't really identify too much of the early Athearn line in HO scale, I can spot em in a New York second in O scale, they are so obvious, even though several manufacturers made them the same basic way in O as well as HO scale, I do know that Athearn, Globe and Varney all had similar construction on many of their kits............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 4:22:25 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Help In Identifying Manufacturers Hi Gary,   Thanks to you and another member, I am confident on the passenger cars being Varney.   As for the Armour reefer, doing a bit of research on my own , it isn't , although it is similar.   I had forgotten I had a copy of " Grrenberg's Guide To Athearn Trains " .  Carefully reading the section on metal cars, I am almost 100% sure it is an early Athearn piece , as it has all the paint , lettering and construction features mentioned, as well as it has one of the car numbers listed .   Thanks again to all who helped .   Tod ( Riverboy ) Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote: Hi Riverboy, The reefer looks to be Varney possibly, the observation is definately Varney...... ...:o) Gary W .   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6114	From: Riverboy	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers

Hi Glenn,   Thanks for the info on the Varney cars . I had an inkling they were but wanted to be sure .   As for the armour car, I forgot I had a copy of " Greenberg's Guice To Athearn Trains " , and read closely, and am nearly 100% positive that is who made it . All the details fit.   I think what threw me was the loop couplers it has on it and the difference in the floor construction. It appears this is an early run. I am more used to seeing Athearn cars with the XF2 couplers instead.   Thanks again for the Varney verification.   Tod Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: Any markings on the bottom of the reefer? ; looks like some we've seen recently.  The passenger cars are Varney. No question about that.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 2:47 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Help In Identifying Manufacturers Hello All,   I've attached two photos of models and I'm not sure who made them . I'd really appreciate any information.   If anyone needs additional information, please let me know.   Photo 1. Ammour Reefer   Stamped metal . Looks like all sides , ends and top separate . wood floor , no inner wood supports .   Photo 2. Passenger Cars   Stamped metal sides . Plastic end castings .Metal floors ( sub floors ? )

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6115	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Varney celluloid side cars

Over the last several months I've been building a number of the Varney celluloid side streamliners (and some card side heavyweights) for myself and another member. The latest one, I thought it would be fun to actually document the construction of one of these puppies. There's a new album in the photos section on the group home page, "Building a Varney Coach" that shows what I've done over the last week. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/7fd5 It's probably easiest to view it "as a slide show". Folks these days who drool over taking a plastic car out of the box and setting it on the rails don't know what they're missing. (PING to Walter, I will get it in the mail tomorrow or Monday) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6116	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/11/2008
Subject: Re: Help In Identifying Manufacturers

I bought one of the Standard Guide To Athearn Model Trains books. It was like a week later that I attended a train show at Mother Seton and was browsing through some Athearn when I came upon a typo car, the Burlington Refrigerator Express car. Haggled the guy down to $5.00 ... I wouldn't have known about it if not for the guide.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Help In Identifying Manufacturers Hi Gary,   Thanks to you and another member, I am confident on the passenger cars being Varney.   As for the Armour reefer, doing a bit of research on my own , it isn't , although it is similar.   I had forgotten I had a copy of " Grrenberg's Guide To Athearn Trains " .  Carefully reading the section on metal cars, I am almost 100% sure it is an early Athearn piece , as it has all the paint , lettering and construction features mentioned, as well as it has one of the car numbers listed .   Thanks again to all who helped .   Tod ( Riverboy ) Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: Hi Riverboy, The reefer looks to be Varney possibly, the observation is definately Varney...... ...:o) Gary W . __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6117	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

Don, Very nice series of photos.  Thanks for taking the time to do this. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 10:30 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Varney celluloid side cars   Over the last several months I've been building a number of the Varney celluloid side streamliners (and some card side heavyweights) for myself and another member. The latest one, I thought it would be fun to actually document the construction of one of these puppies. There's a new album in the photos section on the group home page, "Building a Varney Coach" that shows what I've done over the last week. http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/browse/ 7fd5 It's probably easiest to view it "as a slide show". Folks these days who drool over taking a plastic car out of the box and setting it on the rails don't know what they're missing. ( PING to Walter, I will get it in the mail tomorrow or Monday) Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6118	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Varney celluloid side cars

Don Dellman shows what nice modeling can be done with wood cars in general, and Varney in particular. Keeping things square and neatly fitted, and being meticulous in filling and sealing woodgrain and finishing are the secrets, and Don obviously knows them. Those are handsome cars. I do differ slightly with Don's opinion about the Varney passenger trucks. They are seriously over-wide, and most of the Varney wheels have flanges that will cut the toughest pizza crust; and to boot , did not roll. There was no particular prototype for this relatively short wheel base, but they were an attempt to replicate the much longer outside-equalized lightweight trucks that were under early lightweight cars, primarily Budd. The problem was (and is) that the equalizers on the model trucks are so far outboard of the truck frame as to seriously detract from the graceful and more dimensionally-correct car body just above (IMHO). This Varney passenger truck model was identical or near-so to those made by or marketed also by Micro Motive, and apparently several others- including at one time Devore. There are small variations between the trucks, and whether this was because of egregious copying, or because all these different suppliers went to the same job-shop well, I do not know. What I do know is that Varney over the years did go to a whole variety of outside job shops for a lot of his parts, and these trucks may have been from one of those pipelines. Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6119	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:47 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Varney celluloid side cars > Don Dellman shows what nice modeling can be done with wood cars in > general, and Varney in particular. Keeping things square and neatly > fitted, and being meticulous in filling and sealing woodgrain and > finishing are the secrets, and Don obviously knows them. Those are > handsome cars. > > I do differ slightly with Don's opinion about the Varney passenger > trucks. They are seriously over-wide, and most of the Varney wheels > have flanges that will cut the toughest pizza crust; and to boot , did > not roll. There was no particular prototype for this relatively short > wheel base, but they were an attempt to replicate the much longer > outside-equalized lightweight trucks that were under early lightweight > cars, primarily Budd. The problem was (and is) that the equalizers on > the model trucks are so far outboard of the truck frame as to > seriously detract from the graceful and more dimensionally-correct car > body just above (IMHO). These particular trucks DO roll very well, I have several pair (as well as at least one pair of the Micro-Motive and CV's to compare them with). The flanges are not the typical flange you see on the Varney rigid diecast truck, more like the ones on early MDC. The flange depth is well within the tolerances of my NMRA standards gauge. If I have ONE criticism of them, the springs do seem overly large in diameter. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6120	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

I think we've come up with a term for the Varney all-nylon wheelsets of the early fifties period-- "Pizza Cutter Wheels" Those knife-edge flanges were really something. Varney and a couple of other train-set manufacturers were pressuring NMRA to approve a deeper flange to "improve operations" on train-set track--what wound up happening was the development of the RP-25 wheel profile. Closer to scale (not fully scaled) but using a fillet between the tread and flange to actually keep the flange away from the rail. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Varney celluloid side cars > Don Dellman shows what nice modeling can be done with wood cars in > general, and Varney in particular. Keeping things square and neatly > fitted, and being meticulous in filling and sealing woodgrain and > finishing are the secrets, and Don obviously knows them. Those are > handsome cars. > > I do differ slightly with Don's opinion about the Varney passenger > trucks. They are seriously over-wide, and most of the Varney wheels > have flanges that will cut the toughest pizza crust; and to boot , did > not roll. There was no particular prototype for this relatively short > wheel base, but they were an attempt to replicate the much longer > outside-equalized lightweight trucks that were under early lightweight > cars, primarily Budd. The problem was (and is) that the equalizers on > the model trucks are so far outboard of the truck frame as to > seriously detract from the graceful and more dimensionally-correct car > body just above (IMHO). > > This Varney passenger truck model was identical or near-so to those > made by or marketed also by Micro Motive, and apparently several > others- including at one time Devore. There are small variations > between the trucks, and whether this was because of egregious copying, > or because all these different suppliers went to the same job-shop > well, I do not know. What I do know is that Varney over the years did > go to a whole variety of outside job shops for a lot of his parts, and > these trucks may have been from one of those pipelines. > > Denny > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6121	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: American Beauty passenger car truck kits -3 pr.

Browsing through some ebay listings I came across this on: 170208914698. Looks like the seller has 6 Am Beauty truck kits (3 pair). He also has 1 pr. MDC 4 wheel passenger trucks, at least I think that is what I see. Thought somebody might be interested. I don't know the seller. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6122	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

Don, You did an excellent job documenting the construction. It's "'how to' articles" like this that inspire people to try their hands at kit building and even simply adding detailing and improving what they own. The nice thing was, you didn't rely on some super-expensive tools. Except for the sander, it looked to me like everything was pretty basic, the kinds of tools most modelers would have readily available. Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Over the last several months I've been building a number of the Varney > celluloid side streamliners (and some card side heavyweights) for myself > and another member. The latest one, I thought it would be fun to actually > document the construction of one of these puppies. > > There's a new album in the photos section on the group home page, "Building > a Varney Coach" that shows what I've done over the last week. > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/7fd5 > > It's probably easiest to view it "as a slide show". > > Folks these days who drool over taking a plastic car out of the box and > setting it on the rails don't know what they're missing. > > (PING to Walter, I will get it in the mail tomorrow or Monday) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6123	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 11:37 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars > Don, > > You did an excellent job documenting the construction. It's "'how to' > articles" like this that inspire people to try their hands at kit > building and even simply adding detailing and improving what they own. > The nice thing was, you didn't rely on some super-expensive tools. > Except for the sander, it looked to me like everything was pretty > basic, the kinds of tools most modelers would have readily available. > > Walter Even the sander is not all that exotic, it's a sanding disc in my table saw (which I got for free, since it was my grandfather's. He bought it back in 1956 when Craftsman tools from Sears were GOOD. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6124	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Note for Tim Jones, Galesburg, IL

Hi Tim: Lost your email address, so must post to the list, in the hopes this reaches you. Received the 2 Limited Editions passenger car kits. Thank you! Something coming back your way as well - enroute today. Greatly appreciated, Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6125	From: michael rapp, sr	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: 2 Train Club Open Houses Combined!

The Westchester Model Railroad Club (O-Gauge)                                 and the            Yonkers Model Railroad Club (HO)   Are proud to announce their combined Spring '08              Open House will be held on           Saturday, April 26th 12pm-4pm            Sunday, April 27th 12pm-4pm                                    at                  Tibbetts Brook Park                   1 Midland Avenue             Yonkers New York 10705                Both clubs are located next to each other                 in the pool house building                        on the 2nd floor.                         Plenty of parking                Please email Mike to be sure                             if you need                     handicap accessibility.                      (there is an elevator but                       we want to make sure                     it's on before you arrive)   Links to photos and videos of past open houses:   Yonkers Model Railroad Club (HO): http://putnambill.com/tibbetts/yonkers.html   Westchester Model Railroad Club (O-Gauge):   SkyandTrains Website Photo Homepage: http://skyandtrains.com/id2.html SkyandTrains Website Photo Gallery: http://skyandtrainscom.powweb.com/coppermine/index.php?cat=7 SkyandTrains Website Videos: http://skyandtrains.com/id62.html   Directions: from Cross County Parkway going west:   Get on Cross County Parkway West. Take Exit 3 toward Mclean Ave/YONKERS. Merge onto Putnam Ave. Turn Sharp Left onto Mclean Ave. End at 1Midland Ave. Tibbets Brook Park Pool It is the large building on the Left. Directions: from the Bronx (Henry Hudson) NY-9A N / Henry Hudson Pkwy Take the Broadway /US-9 N exit 23B. Turn Right onto US-9 / Broadway / NY-9A Turn Right onto Caryl Ave. Turn Left onto Intervale Pl. Turn Left onto Coyle Pl. Turn Right onto Mclean Ave End at 1 Midland Ave. Tibbets Brook Park Pool It is the large building on the Left. Or Mapquest 1 Midland Ave. Yonkers NY. 10705       For more information contact Carol and Mike Rapp  Bionicworm1@...       Carol and Mike Rapp KA2FBL - "Hamming it up since 1979"  ARRL - YARC - WECA - BARA TCA - LCCA - METCA - WMRRC Visit our web site at: http://www.skyandtrains.com  View our YouTube channel at: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Bionicworm1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6126	From: louis niederlander	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: vintage HO cardboard kit houses

> Posted by: "khrhyne" khrhyne@... khrhyne > Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:47 am ((PDT)) > > Dear Vintage HO-ers, Hello! I am new to the group and have some > from the 1940s. I love these and am > trying to find out what they are called or any other info on them. > They have brick painting on the outside and cellophane windows. > Thank you in advance for any information you can give me! > There was Built-Right homes. They made product in HO and O. They were made by Warren Paper Products. Regards, Louis N (a member of Train Collectors Association) _________________________________________________________________ Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6127	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

I agree........ It made me go to my Walthers catalog and look up the prices on the NE wood car roofs and floors......... And then I was surprised to find that the Bethlehem Car Works parts are finally being carried by Walthers. If it wasn't for my fascination with TOC curved and arched windows and doors......... and being unable to make good fixtures of some sort for those parts, I'd never have begun looking into affordable machine tools for those chores. Then again, if I had the sides for what I'd like, I wouldn't have to do that route. I keep consoling myself with the thought that it is costing me about as much as a single new, top of the line, plastic HO diesel would today. Maybe I'll have my fleet of never-made-like-this Paul Moore's by fall....... or at least lots of the layered sides, ends, and NE wood parts over summer. Heck, it took until last week to get a fully authorized install of Windows working on this iMac......... I was too cheap to pay the very steep local store price for a package of Windows........... Now I can run the cutter on the computer I want to run it with. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 12, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Walter J. Bayer II wrote: > Don, > > You did an excellent job documenting the construction. It's "'how to' > articles" like this that inspire people to try their hands at kit > building and even simply adding detailing and improving what they own. > The nice thing was, you didn't rely on some super-expensive tools. > Except for the sander, it looked to me like everything was pretty > basic, the kinds of tools most modelers would have readily available. > > Walter > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> Over the last several months I've been building a number of the >> Varney >> celluloid side streamliners (and some card side heavyweights) for > myself >> and another member. The latest one, I thought it would be fun to > actually >> document the construction of one of these puppies. >> >> There's a new album in the photos section on the group home page, > "Building >> a Varney Coach" that shows what I've done over the last week. >> >> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/7fd5 >> >> It's probably easiest to view it "as a slide show". >> >> Folks these days who drool over taking a plastic car out of the box >> and >> setting it on the rails don't know what they're missing. >> >> (PING to Walter, I will get it in the mail tomorrow or Monday) >> >> Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6128	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/12/2008
Subject: Re: 2 Train Club Open Houses Combined!

Sounds great and I'd love to be there but it's a long way from Milwaukee. Guess I'll go to the Titletown Train Show in Green Bay instead. It is also a very good show, held the same weekend. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "michael rapp, sr" <bionicworm1@...> wrote: > > The Westchester Model Railroad Club (O-Gauge) > and the > Yonkers Model Railroad Club (HO) > > Are proud to announce their combined Spring '08 > Open House will be held on > Saturday, April 26th 12pm-4pm > Sunday, April 27th 12pm-4pm > > at > Tibbetts Brook Park > 1 Midland Avenue > Yonkers New York 10705 > > Both clubs are located next to each other > in the pool house building > on the 2nd floor. > > Plenty of parking > Please email Mike to be sure > if you need > handicap accessibility. > (there is an elevator but > we want to make sure > it's on before you arrive) > > Links to photos and videos of past open houses: > > Yonkers Model Railroad Club (HO): > http://putnambill.com/tibbetts/yonkers.html > > Westchester Model Railroad Club (O-Gauge): > > SkyandTrains Website Photo Homepage: > http://skyandtrains.com/id2.html > SkyandTrains Website Photo Gallery: > http://skyandtrainscom.powweb.com/coppermine/index.php?cat=7 > SkyandTrains Website Videos: > http://skyandtrains.com/id62.html > > Directions: from Cross County Parkway going west: > > Get on Cross County Parkway West. > Take Exit 3 toward Mclean Ave/YONKERS. > Merge onto Putnam Ave. > Turn Sharp Left onto Mclean Ave. > End at 1Midland Ave. Tibbets Brook Park Pool > It is the large building on the Left. > > > Directions: from the Bronx (Henry Hudson) > NY-9A N / Henry Hudson Pkwy > Take the Broadway /US-9 N exit 23B. > Turn Right onto US-9 / Broadway / NY-9A > Turn Right onto Caryl Ave. > Turn Left onto Intervale Pl. > Turn Left onto Coyle Pl. > Turn Right onto Mclean Ave > End at 1 Midland Ave. Tibbets Brook Park Pool > It is the large building on the Left. > Or Mapquest 1 Midland Ave. Yonkers NY. 10705 > > > > For more information contact > Carol and Mike Rapp > Bionicworm1@... > > > > Carol and Mike Rapp > KA2FBL - "Hamming it up since 1979" > ARRL - YARC - WECA - BARA > TCA - LCCA - METCA - WMRRC > Visit our web site at: http://www.skyandtrains.com > View our YouTube channel at: http://www.youtube.com/profile? user=Bionicworm1 > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6129	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

PING to Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars >I agree........ > > It made me go to my Walthers catalog and look up the prices on the NE > wood car roofs and floors......... And then I was surprised to find > that the Bethlehem Car Works parts are finally being carried by > Walthers. That's why I've been bugging you to cast those ends for me! If I don't get them I'll have to BUY some more of the BCW ends, and you know how cheap I am :-) Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6130	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

ping wrong person... --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > PING to Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:06 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side > cars > > > >I agree........ > > > > It made me go to my Walthers catalog and look up > the prices on the NE > > wood car roofs and floors......... And then I was > surprised to find > > that the Bethlehem Car Works parts are finally > being carried by > > Walthers. > > That's why I've been bugging you to cast those ends > for me! > > If I don't get them I'll have to BUY some more of > the BCW ends, and you know > how cheap I am :-) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6131	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

Mike is supposed to be making me some copies of an old cast Walthers end so I can do my other four Varney cardstock pullmans. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:29 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars > ping wrong person... > > --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > >> PING to Mike >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side >> cars >> >> >> >I agree........ >> > >> > It made me go to my Walthers catalog and look up >> the prices on the NE >> > wood car roofs and floors......... And then I was >> surprised to find >> > that the Bethlehem Car Works parts are finally >> being carried by >> > Walthers. >> >> That's why I've been bugging you to cast those ends >> for me! >> >> If I don't get them I'll have to BUY some more of >> the BCW ends, and you know >> how cheap I am :-) >> >> Don >> >> don.dellmann@... >> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann >> Owner-Moderator >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> Co-owner >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6132	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

Don,   Do you really use your table saw as a paint spray booth?? I hope you have adequate ventilation. ;-)   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter J. Bayer II To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars Don, You did an excellent job documenting the construction. It's "'how to' articles" like this that inspire people to try their hands at kit building and even simply adding detailing and improving what they own. The nice thing was, you didn't rely on some super-expensive tools. Except for the sander, it looked to me like everything was pretty basic, the kinds of tools most modelers would have readily available. Walter  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Over the last several months I've been building a number of the Varney > celluloid side streamliners (and some card side heavyweights)  for myself > and another member.  The latest one, I thought it would be fun to actually > document the construction of one of these puppies. > > There's a new album in the photos section on the group home page, "Building > a Varney Coach" that shows what I've done over the last week. > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/7fd5 > > It's probably easiest to view it "as a slide show". > > Folks these days who drool over taking a plastic car out of the box and > setting it on the rails don't know what they're missing. > > (PING to Walter, I will get it in the mail tomorrow or Monday) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6133	From: Gerry D	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

I gathered that, but you didn't reply to my idea that one could scan the sides, photoshop them and print them with a laser printer on clear overhead projector plastic material. --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > Mike is supposed to be making me some copies of an > old cast Walthers end so > I can do my other four Varney cardstock pullmans. > > Don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:29 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side > cars > > > > ping wrong person... > > > > --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > >> PING to Mike > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:06 PM > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid > side > >> cars > >> > >> > >> >I agree........ > >> > > >> > It made me go to my Walthers catalog and look > up > >> the prices on the NE > >> > wood car roofs and floors......... And then I > was > >> surprised to find > >> > that the Bethlehem Car Works parts are finally > >> being carried by > >> > Walthers. > >> > >> That's why I've been bugging you to cast those > ends > >> for me! > >> > >> If I don't get them I'll have to BUY some more of > >> the BCW ends, and you know > >> how cheap I am :-) > >> > >> Don > >> > >> don.dellmann@... > >> http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > >> Owner-Moderator > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > >> Co-owner > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6134	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

Yes I do just open spray in the basement.  I don't do it enough to cause a problem.  I've done the coat and I'm through while with an airbrush I'd still be adjusting the spray.   The smoke from cutting with a dull sawblade is worse.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars Don,   Do you really use your table saw as a paint spray booth?? I hope you have adequate ventilation. ;-)   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter J. Bayer II To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars Don, You did an excellent job documenting the construction. It's "'how to' articles" like this that inspire people to try their hands at kit building and even simply adding detailing and improving what they own. The nice thing was, you didn't rely on some super-expensive tools. Except for the sander, it looked to me like everything was pretty basic, the kinds of tools most modelers would have readily available. Walter  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Over the last several months I've been building a number of the Varney > celluloid side streamliners (and some card side heavyweights)  for myself > and another member.  The latest one, I thought it would be fun to actually > document the construction of one of these puppies. > > There's a new album in the photos section on the group home page, "Building > a Varney Coach" that shows what I've done over the last week. > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/7fd5 > > It's probably easiest to view it "as a slide show". > > Folks these days who drool over taking a plastic car out of the box and > setting it on the rails don't know what they're missing. > > (PING to Walter, I will get it in the mail tomorrow or Monday) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6135	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars >I gathered that, but you didn't reply to my idea that > one could scan the sides, photoshop them and print > them with a laser printer on clear overhead projector > plastic material. > > Actually I did sort of replay with my post about the coach, where I only had one side so we scanned it, and a friend made a decal on an Alps printer which I used on clear styrene to do the other side. I tried the idea with an ink jet printer on ink jet transparancy, but the inks aren't opaque enough. If my scanner was working and I had an ALPS printer I'd be doing all the cars. The only one that would be difficult would be the observation since both sides are one long strip. Even though the cars are done they could still be scanned, it's not too late. Northeastern floor and roof stock work well with the Varney sides (or reproductions thereof), you just have to remeasure carefully to get the end blocks the right height. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6136	From: khrhyne	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: vintage HO cardboard kit houses

Thank you very much! Sincerely, Kathryn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6137	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Clinic handout

Finally. Posted the handout to the files section. Have to admit that it's not much, partly because of the cost to make 50 copies. But it might be useful. The clinic was well received. The slideshow is too large to post. Two comments: first I've got to thank this group generally, and Chuck Kinzer, Bill DeFoe, and HOSeeker specifically for providing a lot of useful information. The catalogs on HOSeekers web page are a terrific source of information. Of course, Spanagel's Varney book (graciously loaned to me--yes, I returned it)is incredibly helpful. Second: this is not my area of expertise. Corrections and supplementation remain welcome. Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6138	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

I've set off my smoke alarms while trying to cut wood with my table saw. To say the blade is dull is an understatement.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars Yes I do just open spray in the basement.  I don't do it enough to cause a problem.  I've done the coat and I'm through while with an airbrush I'd still be adjusting the spray.   The smoke from cutting with a dull sawblade is worse.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars Don,   Do you really use your table saw as a paint spray booth?? I hope you have adequate ventilation. ;-)   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter J. Bayer II To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney celluloid side cars Don, You did an excellent job documenting the construction. It's "'how to' articles" like this that inspire people to try their hands at kit building and even simply adding detailing and improving what they own. The nice thing was, you didn't rely on some super-expensive tools. Except for the sander, it looked to me like everything was pretty basic, the kinds of tools most modelers would have readily available. Walter  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Over the last several months I've been building a number of the Varney > celluloid side streamliners (and some card side heavyweights)  for myself > and another member.  The latest one, I thought it would be fun to actually > document the construction of one of these puppies. > > There's a new album in the photos section on the group home page, "Building > a Varney Coach" that shows what I've done over the last week. > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/7fd5 > > It's probably easiest to view it "as a slide show". > > Folks these days who drool over taking a plastic car out of the box and > setting it on the rails don't know what they're missing. > > (PING to Walter, I will get it in the mail tomorrow or Monday) > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo...com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6139	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others

I have always pronounced Akane as ah-KAH-nee.   But I found this in the 30th anniversery catalog of Internation Models (IMP) who was hooked up with Akane at the time:   "Let us try to aid you in asking for the right brand, the name INTER-AKANE- the INTER- we are sure you can pronounce very correctly- AKANE- is a Japanese word- the definition of which is hard to translate- it's meaning is more than beautiful- and the nearest we can come in Americanese- is - "OUT OF THIS WORLD"- The word is pronounced AR- KAR- NEE- with the emphasis on the first syllable."   I used to call Gorre & Daphetid "gore and Daf-eh-tid" at one time.   And I called Tuolemne "tuh LOME".   I'm sure I'm not the only one that has messed up some pronunciations.  I remember somebody coming into the local hobby shop in Oak Park, Illinois one day wanting to see some HO gauge trains.  Pronounced "hoe" gauge.   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6140	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 4/13/2008
Subject: Re: Clinic handout

Frank:   How big is the slide show?   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: bongiovanni12001 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:52 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Clinic handout Finally. Posted the handout to the files section. Have to admit that it's not much, partly because of the cost to make 50 copies. But it might be useful. The clinic was well received. The slideshow is too large to post. Two comments: first I've got to thank this group generally, and Chuck Kinzer, Bill DeFoe, and HOSeeker specifically for providing a lot of useful information. The catalogs on HOSeekers web page are a terrific source of information. Of course, Spanagel's Varney book (graciously loaned to me--yes, I returned it)is incredibly helpful. Second: this is not my area of expertise. Corrections and supplementation remain welcome. Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6141	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid side cars

Well, I was just looking at that mold this weekend..... and felt guilty as I realized I forgot that........ I'll get some plastic into it in a couple of days. I made some transparency stock speeders a while back on an Alps printer. Darned things are just too flimsy on that material. But the idea does work very well, it would be better on 0.010 to 0.20 clear plastic. If a laser can't handle the stock, one of the full sheet photo printers would find the slick surface to work about the same as glossy photo paper. The trick is to find a printer that has a direct- pass, front to back handling of paper instead of folding it back to plop on top of the paper tray. Some do this, many do not. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Apr 13, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Gerry D wrote: > I gathered that, but you didn't reply to my idea that > one could scan the sides, photoshop them and print > them with a laser printer on clear overhead projector > plastic material. > > > --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > >> Mike is supposed to be making me some copies of an >> old cast Walthers end so >> I can do my other four Varney cardstock pullmans. >> >> Don >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> >> >> >>> ping wrong person... >>> >>> --- Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: >>> >>>> PING to Mike >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Bauers" >>>> >>>> >>>>> I agree........ >>>>> >>>>> It made me go to my Walthers catalog and look >> up >>>> the prices on the NE >>>>> wood car roofs and floors......... And then I >> was >>>> surprised to find >>>>> that the Bethlehem Car Works parts are finally >>>> being carried by >>>>> Walthers. >>>> >>>> That's why I've been bugging you to cast those >> ends >>>> for me! >>>> >>>> If I don't get them I'll have to BUY some more of >>>> the BCW ends, and you know >>>> how cheap I am :-) >>>> >>>> Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6142	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/14/2008
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others

Chuck, Japanese is a difficult language to hear and to speak. I studied it in college and have been stationed there several times in my career and still am perpetually baffled by the spoken language. Actually, your original pronunciation (ah KAH ney) is the correct one for the spelling. What I suspect is that the phonetic spelling that was used to translate the Kangi (a pictographic word) was too simplistic. When I was in Tokyo and used to visit the Tenshodo shop, the clerks there (who spoke perfect Japanese because they came by it naturally) pronounced it aAH kah nEY with a slide into the word and the last syllable (and they said it very quickly.) The Japanese have no 'R' sound so the person who made that statement was probably "hearing" a sound that he was familiar with and not necessarily what they Japanese were saying. In any case, if you go into a Japanese hobby shop and use any pronunciation for it, they will usually be able to dig down into a semi-hidden storage area and pull up an old brass loco or two that were made in that wonderful shop. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote: > > I have always pronounced Akane as ah-KAH-nee. > > But I found this in the 30th anniversery catalog of Internation Models (IMP) who was hooked up with Akane at the time: > > "Let us try to aid you in asking for the right brand, the name INTER-AKANE- the INTER- we are sure you can pronounce very correctly- AKANE- is a Japanese word- the definition of which is hard to translate- it's meaning is more than beautiful- and the nearest we can come in Americanese- is - "OUT OF THIS WORLD"- The word is pronounced AR- KAR- NEE- with the emphasis on the first syllable." > > I used to call Gorre & Daphetid "gore and Daf-eh-tid" at one time. > > And I called Tuolemne "tuh LOME". > > I'm sure I'm not the only one that has messed up some pronunciations. I remember somebody coming into the local hobby shop in Oak Park, Illinois one day wanting to see some HO gauge trains. Pronounced "hoe" gauge. > > Chuck Kinzer >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6143	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others

"mmattjcoleman" mattjcoleman@... baffled us with: >Japanese is a difficult language to hear and to speak. I studied it in >college and have been stationed there several times in my career and >still am perpetually baffled by the spoken language. Actually, your >original pronunciation (ah KAH ney) is the correct one for the >spelling. What I suspect is that the phonetic spelling that was used >to translate the Kangi (a pictographic word) was too simplistic. When >I was in Tokyo and used to visit the Tenshodo shop, the clerks there >(who spoke perfect Japanese because they came by it naturally) >pronounced it aAH kah nEY with a slide into the word and the last >syllable (and they said it very quickly.) The Japanese have no 'R' >sound so the person who made that statement was probably "hearing" a >sound that he was familiar with and not necessarily what they Japanese >were saying. Tenshodo used to have a concession shop on Tachikawa AFB...recall buying Shinohara #4 turnouts for 48 cents each. BTW, Shinohara had a small shop quite close to main Navy PX in Yokohama. >In any case, if you go into a Japanese hobby shop and use any >pronunciation for it, they will usually be able to dig down into a >semi-hidden storage area and pull up an old brass loco or two that >were made in that wonderful shop. Spent about 28 months in Japan 1964-67. Local Japanese model rail buff that befriended me took me to the Akane factory a few miles outside of Tachikawa AFB. Highly disappointed as by then they were into slot car production. Later did work up acquaintances with Mizuno and Kumata and ended up with over 100 brass locos at FOB prices. Kumata even sent me some, unsolicited, after my return to the States following a tour in 'Nam. A little gratuity of a bottle of Johnny Walker Scotch or Remy Martin cognac helped. :) Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6144	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:50:19 -0400, Ray Hobin wrote: >BTW, Shinohara had a small shop >quite close to main Navy PX in Yokohama. That was my "local" hobby shop while stationed aboard USS Midway from 1975-1977. The hobby shop was small, but the main production facilities opened off that shop and were upstairs as well. I normally spoke with Shinohara-san's son who was much better at speaking English. Jerry - It isn't so good that it couldn't get better; it isn't so bad that it couldn't be worse. - Lyrics from a song written by T. Wolf and F. Landeman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6145	From: almangani	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help

Recently I purchased a Varney "Casey Jones" 10-Wheeler kit that is almost completed with the exception of riveting the crosshead assemblies to the main rods. Unfortunately, the rivets are missing, they are Varney part no. 2165. Does anyone out there have a pair of these rivets that they would be willing to sell? On the other hand, can anyone recommend a repair shop that could do the job? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Al Mangani

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6146	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help

If my memory is correct, Bowser Manufacturing sells assembled valve gear for that engine or the rivets separately. try the link below to view.   http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/casey_jones/casey_jones.htm   Brian look It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6147	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help

Bowser still makes these kits-so you can get anything for them.  BUT, there is a minimum handling/shipping charge (either $7.95 or $8.95; I forget exactly).  Try Dan Bush at Yardbird Trains (573-248-3841; www.yardbirdtrains.com); he restores vintage locomotives and will charge only actual shipping costs.  You should be able to get the two rivets you need for a few bucks.  Regards, Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of almangani Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:55 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help   Recently I purchased a Varney "Casey Jones" 10-Wheeler kit that is almost completed with the exception of riveting the crosshead assemblies to the main rods. Unfortunately, the rivets are missing, they are Varney part no. 2165. Does anyone out there have a pair of these rivets that they would be willing to sell? On the other hand, can anyone recommend a repair shop that could do the job? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Al Mangani

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6148	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help

Those parts are available from Bowser........ You might want to buy a car kit or something else to make the shipping more worthwhile. They also have a rivet tool to complete the installation of those rivets...... It's sort of a shaped punch. To install valve rivets, you put a piece of ordinary typing/writing paper between the rods and remove that after the rivets are installed and shaped. That's all the extra space you need between the rods. You'll find the kit instruction diagrams for the Varney kits in the Bowser site. They might even use the same part number for stocking them. Or go here for the links to the Bowser diagrams and parts for the present Casey Jones..... http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/casey_jones/casey_jones.htm rivet part numbers on this diagram....... http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/casey_jones/Casey.pdf I think the rivet lengths are found on the parts pages and price list that are also on the Bowser site. The entire catalog is downloadable from Bowser. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Apr 15, 2008, at 12:55 PM, almangani wrote: > Recently I purchased a Varney "Casey Jones" 10-Wheeler kit that is > almost completed with the exception of riveting the crosshead > assemblies to the main rods. Unfortunately, the rivets are missing, > they are Varney part no. 2165. Does anyone out there have a pair of > these rivets that they would be willing to sell? On the other hand, > can anyone recommend a repair shop that could do the job? Any help > would be appreciated.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6149	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help

I believe the loco is currently made by Bowser--try them. Or PSC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "almangani" <glidersaur@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:55 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help > Recently I purchased a Varney "Casey Jones" 10-Wheeler kit that is > almost completed with the exception of riveting the crosshead > assemblies to the main rods. Unfortunately, the rivets are missing, > they are Varney part no. 2165. Does anyone out there have a pair of > these rivets that they would be willing to sell? On the other hand, > can anyone recommend a repair shop that could do the job? Any help > would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Al Mangani > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6150	From: AL	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: HELP - Quality Craft tri-level auto rack car info

Hoping someone here can help out :-) I picked up a group of old cars and included was a trio of the Quality Craft tri-level auto cars. These are about 90% built, unpainted, currently have sprung plastic trucks ( maybe Walthers or Lesney ?). What I need is a copy of the instructions or similar to know how to finish adding the details (placards, steps, etc ), so I can finish these up ( might keep one bare wood because it's neat :-) . .... anyone have a copy of these they could scan, or let go of ( for a small fee, lol ) , thanks in advance ( again ) . ~ AL ( maybe photos, loo, too much work to clear the clutter for a good photo, my bad )

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6151	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: HELP - Quality Craft tri-level auto rack car info

QC is still in business--at least under their Weaver and Scalecoat names--try there? ----- Original Message ----- From: "AL" <Sailordoode@...> Subject: [vintageHO] HELP - Quality Craft tri-level auto rack car info > > Hoping someone here can help out :-) > > I

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6152	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Holgate & Reynolds

I have several of the Holgate and Reynolds double-deck "gallery" commute cars--SP painted sides--3 built, 3 in various stages of assembly.  Anyone interested?   glenn476@...   gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6153	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Holgate & Reynolds

Hi Glenn and List: I will second Glenn's note. Have 2 of the same, 1 cab, 1 coach, still in kit form, Rock Island (red sides, light gray roofs, yellow lettering). Also, 5 or 6 Keil Line bi-levels, various roads (C&NW, RTA, etc). Anyone interested? Dave F ************** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6154	From: Philip Martin	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Holgate & Reynolds

Does anybody know if the parts to these H&G Bi-Levels will fit the Three Brothers Mrg. streamlined Bi-levels?   I am looking for the streamlined ones.   Phil ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 8:37:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Holgate & Reynolds Hi Glenn and List: I will second Glenn's note. Have 2 of the same, 1 cab, 1 coach, still in kit form, Rock Island (red sides, light gray roofs, yellow lettering). Also, 5 or 6 Keil Line bi-levels, various roads (C&NW, RTA, etc). Anyone interested? Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolcmp00300 000002850) between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6155	From: Don Grant	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help

PSC sells a variety of valve gear rivets. Best, Don almangani <glidersaur@...> wrote: Recently I purchased a Varney "Casey Jones" 10-Wheeler kit that is almost completed with the exception of riveting the crosshead assemblies to the main rods. Unfortunately, the rivets are missing, they are Varney part no. 2165. Does anyone out there have a pair of these rivets that they would be willing to sell? On the other hand, can anyone recommend a repair shop that could do the job? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Al Mangani ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6156	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: HELP - Quality Craft tri-level auto rack car info

Hi, I can scan a set and email them to you, but would not be able to do that until this weekend.  Please send me your email address and I should be able to get them to you by Sunday night.   These things are usually available dirt cheap, between $2 and $10 on eBay regularly.  I built one many years ago and still wonder how I did it?  :o)   Anyway, there seem to be 2 styles.  One has the verticals totally built up using basswood strips and sheets,  The other style has plastic castings for the verticals.  Let me know which one you have.  By the way, there is a fair amount of "interpolation" in putting on the details. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: Sailordoode@... Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:06:47 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] HELP - Quality Craft tri-level auto rack car info Hoping someone here can help out :-) I picked up a group of old cars and included was a trio of the Quality Craft tri-level auto cars. These are about 90% built, unpainted, currently have sprung plastic trucks ( maybe Walthers or Lesney ?). What I need is a copy of the instructions or similar to know how to finish adding the details (placards, steps, etc ), so I can finish these up ( might keep one bare wood because it's neat :-) . .... anyone have a copy of these they could scan, or let go of ( for a small fee, lol ) , thanks in advance ( again ) . ~ AL ( maybe photos, loo, too much work to clear the clutter for a good photo, my bad ) Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6157	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/15/2008
Subject: Re: Holgate & Reynolds

I think that "3 brothers"  was another incarnation of H&R and Keil Line.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip Martin To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Holgate & Reynolds Does anybody know if the parts to these H&G Bi-Levels will fit the Three Brothers Mrg. streamlined Bi-levels?   I am looking for the streamlined ones.   Phil ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 8:37:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Holgate & Reynolds Hi Glenn and List: I will second Glenn's note. Have 2 of the same, 1 cab, 1 coach, still in kit form, Rock Island (red sides, light gray roofs, yellow lettering). Also, 5 or 6 Keil Line bi-levels, various roads (C&NW, RTA, etc). Anyone interested? Dave F ************ ** It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money. aol.com/tax? NCID=aolcmp00300 000002850) between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6158	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "Akane" and others

Ray, Great memories and some interesting side notes. I knew that Akane did make slot cars but didn't realize that they did it at their own factory. Those are probably as collectible as any of their brass. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: > > "mmattjcoleman" mattjcoleman@... baffled us with: > > >Japanese is a difficult language to hear and to speak. I studied it in > >college and have been stationed there several times in my career and > >still am perpetually baffled by the spoken language. Actually, your > >original pronunciation (ah KAH ney) is the correct one for the > >spelling. What I suspect is that the phonetic spelling that was used > >to translate the Kangi (a pictographic word) was too simplistic. When > >I was in Tokyo and used to visit the Tenshodo shop, the clerks there > >(who spoke perfect Japanese because they came by it naturally) > >pronounced it aAH kah nEY with a slide into the word and the last > >syllable (and they said it very quickly.) The Japanese have no 'R' > >sound so the person who made that statement was probably "hearing" a > >sound that he was familiar with and not necessarily what they Japanese > >were saying. > > Tenshodo used to have a concession shop on Tachikawa AFB...recall buying > Shinohara #4 turnouts for 48 cents each. BTW, Shinohara had a small shop > quite close to main Navy PX in Yokohama. > > >In any case, if you go into a Japanese hobby shop and use any > >pronunciation for it, they will usually be able to dig down into a > >semi-hidden storage area and pull up an old brass loco or two that > >were made in that wonderful shop. > > Spent about 28 months in Japan 1964-67. Local Japanese model rail buff > that befriended me took me to the Akane factory a few miles outside of > Tachikawa AFB. Highly disappointed as by then they were into slot car > production. > > Later did work up acquaintances with Mizuno and Kumata and ended up with > over 100 brass locos at FOB prices. Kumata even sent me some, unsolicited, > after my return to the States following a tour in 'Nam. > > A little gratuity of a bottle of Johnny Walker Scotch or Remy Martin cognac > helped. :) > > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6159	From: Jim McClenin	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Looking For

Hello, All, Having the urge, all of a sudden, to try and assemble the pieces of an Athearn set I had as a boy.HiF F7 diesel in the CN green/yellow scheme, NH boxcar, M&StL hopper and standard offset cupola caboose. Any leads to one or all in reasonable condition would be much appreciated. Contact off list OK. Thanks and best regards, Jim McClenin Ontario Southern RR

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6160	From: almangani	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help

I just want to say thanks to all of the members of this group who kindly responded to my plea for help with my old Varney 10 Wheeler kit. Thanks to your suggestions I have decided to send the complete locomotive to Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains in Missouri. He has not only offered to assemble the main rods to the crossheads with the rivets I was missing, but he has also offered install the valve gear, an item which the kit I own never included. So again I thank you all, and if you get in a similar bind, give Dan a call. He is very knowledgeable. I look forward to working with him. This forum is a terrific resource for me and I hope I can someday contribute to help someone out as you folks have helped me. Regards, Al Mangani

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6161	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Re: Looking For

Jim,   Does the F7 need to be in running order?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim McClenin To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:19 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Looking For Hello, All, Having the urge, all of a sudden, to try and assemble the pieces of an Athearn set I had as a boy.HiF F7 diesel in the CN green/yellow scheme, NH boxcar, M&StL hopper and standard offset cupola caboose. Any leads to one or all in reasonable condition would be much appreciated. Contact off list OK. Thanks and best regards, Jim McClenin Ontario Southern RR ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6162	From: Jim McClenin	Date: 4/16/2008
Subject: Re: Looking For

Steve, It would be a plus but not that important if the shell is in decent shape. Thanks for the response and best regards, Jim > > Jim, > > Does the F7 need to be in running order? > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim McClenin > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:19 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Looking For > > > Hello, All, > Having the urge, all of a sudden, to try and assemble the pieces of an > Athearn set I had as a boy.HiF F7 diesel in the CN green/yellow > scheme, NH boxcar, M&StL hopper and standard offset cupola caboose. > Any leads to one or all in reasonable condition would be much > appreciated. Contact off list OK. Thanks and best regards, > > Jim McClenin > Ontario Southern RR > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6163	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/17/2008
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones" 10 Wheeler Kit help

Al, Wise choice. Dan is one of those wonderful people who have a clear understanding and appreciation for old HO. He has helped me on several projects and I appreciate it more than he probably knows. Matt -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "almangani" <glidersaur@...> wrote: > > I just want to say thanks to all of the members of this group who > kindly responded to my plea for help with my old Varney 10 Wheeler > kit. Thanks to your suggestions I have decided to send the complete > locomotive to Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains in Missouri. He has > not only offered to assemble the main rods to the crossheads with the > rivets I was missing, but he has also offered install the valve gear, > an item which the kit I own never included. So again I thank you all, > and if you get in a similar bind, give Dan a call. He is very > knowledgeable. I look forward to working with him. This forum is a > terrific resource for me and I hope I can someday contribute to help > someone out as you folks have helped me. > > Regards, > Al Mangani >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6164	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/19/2008
Subject: Resurrecting The Dinosaurs Episode 4

Hi All, I have finished uploading Resurrecting The Dinosaurs 4, in this series I redid a pair of B&O F7's, both of these units were dummies when I got them, however, I powered the B unit, removed the roof overhang over the back end and both ends of the B unit, added true constant lighting to the A unit, as well as an interior utilizing the Genesis F unit interior, ran a draw bar between the A & B units, here are the vids.... Gary W http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1teGijsTBM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0pfWRNyNwE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlNUB8SossI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRLEzUVEsZQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2k2wOjeY74 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWJ1HIhb1rk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciz5pN-XgLE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3lOS1LAj78 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6165	From: Al Campbell	Date: 4/21/2008
Subject: MDC 3 bay B&LE o/s hoppers.

Hello: I'd like to know how many different numbered 3 bay o/s hoppers were produced by MDC for the B&LE with their cat no. 1618. Also, are the numbers all equal or were some scarcer than others. If anyone knows the time frame they were manufactured that would also be helpful. Thank you, Al Campbell

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6166	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2008
Subject: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Yeah, been buying (or at least a-lookin' and a-biddin') old HO stuff again. That's only because I cleared off the shelf that held my 1/43 autos and it just begs for some 1/87 rr stuff to be put on it. I gots an USRA Lite Mike lettered for the KGB&W (CGW #755 on loan to the GBW for testing before they purchased the 400's). Also a CNW USRA 0-6-0 and a CNW Alco S-1, a Mautua detailed 2-6-6-2T, my ex-NOPB 50ft box with the NOPB numbers and reporting marks painted over and GBW poop put on but I need more. There will eventually be a GBW S-1 and S-2, a RS-20 and wood bay widow caboose, but I need something that I've wanted just forever, a B&O C-16a. Well I found what looks to be a close example on ebay and got it. This is really weird for me to post about something I do not have in my hot little hands but..... And the seller states he bought it back in the 60's so it should feel right at home here. Don't know for sure what brand it is....Heck I have no idea what brand it is, period, although I'm thinking early AHM. Because I have never successfully put a photo in a Yahoo group Message, I added two shots, one model and one prototype, in an album titled "John's Foibles" I do believe that with some work it will be a quite convincing representation of the real thing. There are more photos of the model on ebay, item #110243102905. Then, once I am finished, (or before, who knows what I will do next, certainly not me), I can build and detail a C-16, elsewise know for years as Varney's "Little Joe". Meanwhile I gotta get that A&W GE done for the TTS this weekend. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6167	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 4/21/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

I would say that it's a Rivarossi model. Got a couple here. They sure are cute!   Enjoy it, John. Parts... could be an issue but someone on this list mentioned a possible parts source awhile back.  Check your "vintage HO" archives, it should be there. Best   Fred John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: Yeah, been buying (or at least a-lookin' and a-biddin') old HO stuff again. That's only because I cleared off the shelf that held my 1/43 autos and it just begs for some 1/87 rr stuff to be put on it. I gots an USRA Lite Mike lettered for the KGB&W (CGW #755 on loan to the GBW for testing before they purchased the 400's). Also a CNW USRA 0-6-0 and a CNW Alco S-1, a Mautua detailed 2-6-6-2T, my ex-NOPB 50ft box with the NOPB numbers and reporting marks painted over and GBW poop put on but I need more. There will eventually be a GBW S-1 and S-2, a RS-20 and wood bay widow caboose, but I need something that I've wanted just forever, a B&O C-16a. Well I found what looks to be a close example on ebay and got it. This is really weird for me to post about something I do not have in my hot little hands but..... And the seller states he bought it back in the 60's so it should feel right at home here. Don't know for sure what brand it is....Heck I have no idea what brand it is, period, although I'm thinking early AHM. Because I have never successfully put a photo in a Yahoo group Message, I added two shots, one model and one prototype, in an album titled "John's Foibles" I do believe that with some work it will be a quite convincing representation of the real thing. There are more photos of the model on ebay, item #110243102905. Then, once I am finished, (or before, who knows what I will do next, certainly not me), I can build and detail a C-16, elsewise know for years as Varney's "Little Joe". Meanwhile I gotta get that A&W GE done for the TTS this weekend. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6168	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Hi John, Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:28:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Yeah, been buying (or at least a-lookin' and a-biddin') old HO stuff again. That's only because I cleared off the shelf that held my 1/43 autos and it just begs for some 1/87 rr stuff to be put on it. I gots an USRA Lite Mike lettered for the KGB&W (CGW #755 on loan to the GBW for testing before they purchased the 400's). Also a CNW USRA 0-6-0 and a CNW Alco S-1, a Mautua detailed 2-6-6-2T, my ex-NOPB 50ft box with the NOPB numbers and reporting marks painted over and GBW poop put on but I need more. There will eventually be a GBW S-1 and S-2, a RS-20 and wood bay widow caboose, but I need something that I've wanted just forever, a B&O C-16a. Well I found what looks to be a close example on ebay and got it. This is really weird for me to post about something I do not have in my hot little hands but..... And the seller states he bought it back in the 60's so it should feel right at home here. Don't know for sure what brand it is....Heck I have no idea what brand it is, period, although I'm thinking early AHM. Because I have never successfully put a photo in a Yahoo group Message, I added two shots, one model and one prototype, in an album titled "John's Foibles" I do believe that with some work it will be a quite convincing representation of the real thing. There are more photos of the model on ebay, item #110243102905. Then, once I am finished, (or before, who knows what I will do next, certainly not me), I can build and detail a C-16, elsewise know for years as Varney's "Little Joe". Meanwhile I gotta get that A&W GE done for the TTS this weekend. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6169	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider........:o) > > Gary W > Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, are you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky recesses.... Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender locomotives to extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two docksides, 97 & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r)" was bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only four prototypes built. When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6170	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: MDC B&LE 3 bay hoppers

I am reasonably certain that there were three separate sets of 12, with different numbers: i.e. 36 numbers in all. The first two sets were released approximately in the early 1980's, with the third set following more than a year or two later. No idea as to comparative rarity, although I recall the third set getting a little less publicity, and, how many of us (yeah, I was one)wanted 36 B&LE hoppers? I think, but I'm not sure, that this MDC model came under fire on one of the Prototype Modeler type lists, and Bowser has recently done an allegedly more accurate model, but I'm not sure; I mention this partly to encourage someone with better info to post. Thank you. Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6171	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

The B&O's C-16 class were built as tank engines--two were later rebuilt with tenders as C-16a. Your comment makes it sound the other way around.  gj   I think I have a Dockside in each scale that has been made.   I find it interesting that in O an error in driver size has been perpetuated.  40" drivers that should be 48"-- probably someone misread a drawing that read 4' 0" --and subsequent builders have followed suit.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:51 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:28:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Yeah, been buying (or at least a-lookin' and a-biddin') old HO stuff again. That's only because I cleared off the shelf that held my 1/43 autos and it just begs for some 1/87 rr stuff to be put on it. I gots an USRA Lite Mike lettered for the KGB&W (CGW #755 on loan to the GBW for testing before they purchased the 400's). Also a CNW USRA 0-6-0 and a CNW Alco S-1, a Mautua detailed 2-6-6-2T, my ex-NOPB 50ft box with the NOPB numbers and reporting marks painted over and GBW poop put on but I need more. There will eventually be a GBW S-1 and S-2, a RS-20 and wood bay widow caboose, but I need something that I've wanted just forever, a B&O C-16a. Well I found what looks to be a close example on ebay and got it. This is really weird for me to post about something I do not have in my hot little hands but..... And the seller states he bought it back in the 60's so it should feel right at home here. Don't know for sure what brand it is....Heck I have no idea what brand it is, period, although I'm thinking early AHM. Because I have never successfully put a photo in a Yahoo group Message, I added two shots, one model and one prototype, in an album titled "John's Foibles" I do believe that with some work it will be a quite convincing representation of the real thing. There are more photos of the model on ebay, item #110243102905. Then, once I am finished, (or before, who knows what I will do next, certainly not me), I can build and detail a C-16, elsewise know for years as Varney's "Little Joe". Meanwhile I gotta get that A&W GE done for the TTS this weekend. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6172	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Hi Glenn, Did I get that backwards, sorry!!!!!!!:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:04:50 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... The B&O's C-16 class were built as tank engines--two were later rebuilt with tenders as C-16a. Your comment makes it sound the other way around.  gj   I think I have a Dockside in each scale that has been made.   I find it interesting that in O an error in driver size has been perpetuated.  40" drivers that should be 48"-- probably someone misread a drawing that read 4' 0" --and subsequent builders have followed suit.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:51 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:28:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Yeah, been buying (or at least a-lookin' and a-biddin') old HO stuff again. That's only because I cleared off the shelf that held my 1/43 autos and it just begs for some 1/87 rr stuff to be put on it. I gots an USRA Lite Mike lettered for the KGB&W (CGW #755 on loan to the GBW for testing before they purchased the 400's). Also a CNW USRA 0-6-0 and a CNW Alco S-1, a Mautua detailed 2-6-6-2T, my ex-NOPB 50ft box with the NOPB numbers and reporting marks painted over and GBW poop put on but I need more. There will eventually be a GBW S-1 and S-2, a RS-20 and wood bay widow caboose, but I need something that I've wanted just forever, a B&O C-16a. Well I found what looks to be a close example on ebay and got it. This is really weird for me to post about something I do not have in my hot little hands but..... And the seller states he bought it back in the 60's so it should feel right at home here. Don't know for sure what brand it is....Heck I have no idea what brand it is, period, although I'm thinking early AHM. Because I have never successfully put a photo in a Yahoo group Message, I added two shots, one model and one prototype, in an album titled "John's Foibles" I do believe that with some work it will be a quite convincing representation of the real thing. There are more photos of the model on ebay, item #110243102905. Then, once I am finished, (or before, who knows what I will do next, certainly not me), I can build and detail a C-16, elsewise know for years as Varney's "Little Joe". Meanwhile I gotta get that A&W GE done for the TTS this weekend. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6173	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Hi John, I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 ever made............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:40:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) > > Gary W > Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, are you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky recesses.... Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender locomotives to extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two docksides, 97 & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r) " was bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only four prototypes built. When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6174	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear.  You can very easily see the difference between them.  The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: betsy662@... Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:58:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 ever made........ ....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:40:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) > > Gary W > Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, are you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky recesses.... Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender locomotives to extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two docksides, 97 & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r) " was bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only four prototypes built. When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6175	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > > I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 ever made............:o) > > Gary W > > Hi Gary. I was aware of the various manufacturers. Varney was the first. I may be wrong but it had been alleged that the Life Like was made using the Varney dies. Mantua made a 0-4-0T that has been mistakenly called a dockside at times. I do not know if there was an actual prototype for the Mantua model although there could have been. There were hundreds if not thousands of 0-4-0T's built over the years for mines, various industries, dock use, etc. The B&O design, the afore mentioned 96, 97, 98 & 99, were the ones called "Docksides" and inspired the Varney and it's copies. I suppose the name may apply to any locomotive used as dock switchers, just as Frigidaire was often used to describe any and all electric refrigerators, no matter who manufactured them, for many years by people around since ice boxes were still the norm. And yes, I remember the ice man carring blocks of ice into some of our neighbors' homes. By the time I arrived we had a refridgerator, but it wasn't a Frigidaire. Kelvinator I think..... Had the round evaporator on top and a freezer big enough for maybe two ice cude trays. No automatic defrosting either, That was one of moms duties, and a time consuming one at that. This is what happens when you give an old fart something to talk about. We never know when to stop. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6176	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > > Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. > Valve gear was optional on most, even the Varney, along with power windows and eight track players. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6177	From: Bill Wright	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: MDC 3 bay B&LE o/s hoppers.

Al, I can't answer either of your questions specifically. But here is the list of MDC B&LE hoppers, I have in my car inventory database: 75006 75324 75326 75409 75425 75551 75900 75992 76224 76401 76523 That is 11 car numbers. I don't know if all of them were cat no. 1618. Car numbers 75409 through 76523 are identified in my database as cat no. 1618. The other car numbers are not identified as to cat no. At one time, I had 3 of the 75900, but have sold two of them. I have a comment in my database that three other car numbers sold on eBay in November 1999. These numbers were: 75004, 75009, 75325. My guess is that cat no. 1618 was produced as a special run and perhaps were sold as a boxed set of say 12 cars with equal numbers of each car number produced. Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6178	From: lvtrainmeet	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Model Train meet May 17th and 18th Allentown Pa Off I-78

Hello to everyone, I just want to let everyone know that there is a nice train meet coming up May 17th and 18th 2008 at Merchants sqaure mall 1901 S 12th st Allentown Pa 18103. Info www.lehighvalleytrainmeet.com . Usually has lots of items and good deals. Hope to see you there. Redman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6179	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Hi John, My C16 has full valve gear, it was done by Ben Neal of Subpar Productions, nice work huh????:o) Gary W http://youtube.com/watch?v=4kq_XGXKWuU ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 4:34:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@ ...> wrote: > > > Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. > Valve gear was optional on most, even the Varney, along with power windows and eight track players. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6180	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

PFM even imported one made by Tenshodo with a diecast body.  Gem had both the C-16 and the C-16A in brass.   Truely ubiquitous     Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 ever made............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:40:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) > > Gary W > Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, are you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky recesses.... Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender locomotives to extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two docksides, 97 & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r) " was bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only four prototypes built. When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6181	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Hi John, I don't know about Life Like having access to the Varney tools, I do know that Bowser bought out Varney, and has been producing much of the old Varney line under their own name, and the dockside is one of those. The Mantua with the square tanks isn't what I was refering to, I was referencing thier old 0-4-0 yard pony, which is the C16a with the tender, AHM did a much nicer, more detailed version of both the C16 and C16a, unfortunately, in order to get them to sell to more than just a few B&O officianados, you tend to find them in Santa Fe, UP, and a few other roadnames as well, which never existed. The saddle tank 0-4-0 from Mantua, was just that, a saddle tank with square tanks, I guess an engine like that may very well have been used on a dock somewhere, but those weren't docksides...........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 4:30:13 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote: > > Hi John, > > I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 ever made........ ....:o) > > Gary W > > Hi Gary. I was aware of the various manufacturers. Varney was the first. I may be wrong but it had been alleged that the Life Like was made using the Varney dies. Mantua made a 0-4-0T that has been mistakenly called a dockside at times. I do not know if there was an actual prototype for the Mantua model although there could have been. There were hundreds if not thousands of 0-4-0T's built over the years for mines, various industries, dock use, etc. The B&O design, the afore mentioned 96, 97, 98 & 99, were the ones called "Docksides" and inspired the Varney and it's copies. I suppose the name may apply to any locomotive used as dock switchers, just as Frigidaire was often used to describe any and all electric refrigerators, no matter who manufactured them, for many years by people around since ice boxes were still the norm. And yes, I remember the ice man carring blocks of ice into some of our neighbors' homes. By the time I arrived we had a refridgerator, but it wasn't a Frigidaire. Kelvinator I think..... Had the round evaporator on top and a freezer big enough for maybe two ice cude trays. No automatic defrosting either, That was one of moms duties, and a time consuming one at that. This is what happens when you give an old fart something to talk about. We never know when to stop. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6182	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Hi Vic, Yep, it was optional on the Varney/Bowser, and still is I believe, I remember buying one in 1979, at a toy and hobby store in Harlingen, Texas, I had had one years before that dad and I picked up at Woolworths, the original had the valve gear, and always did look good, when I got that last C16 in 79, it was too late when I got it home and noticed it didn't have the valve gear, man was I mad about that...........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 4:18:38 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear.  You can very easily see the difference between them.  The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: betsy662@yahoo. com Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:58:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 ever made........ ....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:40:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) > > Gary W > Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, are you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky recesses.... Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender locomotives to extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two docksides, 97 & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r) " was bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only four prototypes built. When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6183	From: michael rapp, sr	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Train Club Open House!

REMINDER.....            THIS WEEKEND HAVE SOME TOY TRAIN FUN!     The Westchester Model Railroad Club (O-Gauge)          (We will also have an HO club layout)                                  Are proud to announce their combined Spring '08              Open House will be held on           Saturday, April 26th 12pm-4pm            Sunday, April 27th 12pm-4pm                                    at                  Tibbetts Brook Park                   1 Midland Avenue             Yonkers New York 10705                Both clubs are located next to each other                 in the pool house building                        on the 2nd floor.                         Plenty of parking                Please email Mike to be sure                             if you need                     handicap accessibility.                      (there is an elevator but                       we want to make sure                     it's on before you arrive)   Links to photos and videos of past open houses:   Westchester Model Railroad Club (O-Gauge):   SkyandTrains Website Photo Homepage: http://skyandtrains.com/id2.html SkyandTrains Website Photo Gallery: http://skyandtrainscom.powweb.com/coppermine/index.php?cat=7 SkyandTrains Website Videos: http://skyandtrains.com/id62.html   Directions: from Cross County Parkway going west:   Get on Cross County Parkway West. Take Exit 3 toward Mclean Ave/YONKERS. Merge onto Putnam Ave. Turn Sharp Left onto Mclean Ave. End at 1Midland Ave. Tibbets Brook Park Pool It is the large building on the Left. Directions: from the Bronx (Henry Hudson) NY-9A N / Henry Hudson Pkwy Take the Broadway /US-9 N exit 23B. Turn Right onto US-9 / Broadway / NY-9A Turn Right onto Caryl Ave. Turn Left onto Intervale Pl. Turn Left onto Coyle Pl. Turn Right onto Mclean Ave End at 1 Midland Ave. Tibbets Brook Park Pool It is the large building on the Left. Or Mapquest 1 Midland Ave. Yonkers NY. 10705    For more information contact Carol and Mike Rapp  Bionicworm1@...    Carol and Mike Rapp KA2FBL - "Hamming it up since 1979"  ARRL - YARC - WECA - BARA TCA - LCCA - METCA - WMRRC Visit our web site at: http://www.skyandtrains.com  View our YouTube channel at: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Bionicworm1 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6184	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Does anyone have the "phonograph record" display Varney made as a sales gimmick?  It was a steel sheet pressing about the size of a 10", 78 rpm record.  It had a circle of flex track around the rim--inset far enough that the loco would clear anything next to it.  Had to be about a 4" radius curve.  Center label had the "record title"  of "Little Joe Goes to Town.   I had one--local hobby shop guy gave it to me when I was in high school--don't know what ever happened to it--probably gone in a move.    I'd love to find one to display with the assortment of different scale Docksides.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 ever made............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:40:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) > > Gary W > Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, are you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky recesses.... Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender locomotives to extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two docksides, 97 & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r) " was bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only four prototypes built. When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6185	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

I believe that PFM/Tenshodo made an HO Dockside--die cast, with valve gear.  Other scales I know of (because I have them)  N  unknown mfr., HO--Varney, PFM,. Rivarossi,  S-Rex, O International, US Hobbies.  I think an RTR tinplate version was made by R. O. W. ----- Original Message ----- From: Victor Bitleris To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:18 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear.  You can very easily see the difference between them.  The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: betsy662@... Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:58:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 ever made........ ....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:40:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) > > Gary W > Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, are you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky recesses.... Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender locomotives to extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two docksides, 97 & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r) " was bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only four prototypes built. When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6186	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

The 0-4-0T's I recall from Mantua were side tanks (Pannier tanks in British)--first one was the "Busy Bee" adapted from the "Goat", mixed brass and die cast. That was replaced by the "Booster"-- all die cast. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:30 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but > also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo > Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I > believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the > most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only > 4 ever made............:o) >> >> Gary W >> >> > Hi Gary. > > I was aware of the various manufacturers. Varney was the first. I may > be wrong but it had been alleged that the Life Like was made using > the Varney dies. Mantua made a 0-4-0T that has been mistakenly called > a dockside at times. I do not know if there was an actual prototype > for the Mantua model although there could have been. There were > hundreds if not thousands of 0-4-0T's built over the years for mines, > various industries, dock use, etc. The B&O design, the afore > mentioned 96, 97, 98 & 99, were the ones called "Docksides" and > inspired the Varney and it's copies. I suppose the name may apply to > any locomotive used as dock switchers, just as Frigidaire was often > used to describe any and all electric refrigerators, no matter who > manufactured them, for many years by people around since ice boxes > were still the norm. And yes, I remember the ice man carring blocks > of ice into some of our neighbors' homes. By the time I arrived we > had a refridgerator, but it wasn't a Frigidaire. Kelvinator I > think..... Had the round evaporator on top and a freezer big enough > for maybe two ice cude trays. No automatic defrosting either, That > was one of moms duties, and a time consuming one at that. > > This is what happens when you give an old fart something to talk > about. We never know when to stop. > > John Hagen > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6187	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Interesting.  Is that computer-generated track?  Never saw the points move, and there were no frogs in the switches--that's what gives it away--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, My C16 has full valve gear, it was done by Ben Neal of Subpar Productions, nice work huh????:o) Gary W http://youtube.com/watch?v=4kq_XGXKWuU ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 4:34:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@ ...> wrote: > > > Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. > Valve gear was optional on most, even the Varney, along with power windows and eight track players. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6188	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Hi Glenn, Yes, in fact, that is Trainz Rairload Simulator 2004, later versions of this same layout were reloaded into TRS2006, you can certainly see the progress of the Withlacoochee River Railway by going through many of my old videos.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:43:13 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Interesting.  Is that computer-generated track?  Never saw the points move, and there were no frogs in the switches--that' s what gives it away--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, My C16 has full valve gear, it was done by Ben Neal of Subpar Productions, nice work huh????:o) Gary W http://youtube. com/watch? v=4kq_XGXKWuU ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 4:34:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@ ...> wrote: > > > Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. > Valve gear was optional on most, even the Varney, along with power windows and eight track players. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6189	From: Rick Jones	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

John Hagen wrote: > > I was aware of the various manufacturers. Varney was the first. I may > be wrong but it had been alleged that the Life Like was made using > the Varney dies. Mantua made a 0-4-0T that has been mistakenly called > a dockside at times. I do not know if there was an actual prototype > for the Mantua model although there could have been. There were > hundreds if not thousands of 0-4-0T's built over the years for mines, > various industries, dock use, etc. The B&O design, the afore > mentioned 96, 97, 98 & 99, were the ones called "Docksides" and > inspired the Varney and it's copies. The Brown Book lists on brass run of the loco being imported by Gem in 1973, and 5 runs in Zamac being imported by PFM during the 1960s. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Up with hemlines.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6190	From: Steven Winter	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: Train Club Open House!

Forwarded your announcement to Train_Shows yahoo group. ----- Original Message ----- From: michael rapp, sr To: AMT Group Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:11 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Train Club Open House! REMINDER.....            THIS WEEKEND HAVE SOME TOY TRAIN FUN!     The Westchester Model Railroad Club (O-Gauge)          (We will also have an HO club layout)                                  Are proud to announce their combined Spring '08              Open House will be held on           Saturday, April 26th 12pm-4pm            Sunday, April 27th 12pm-4pm                                    at                  Tibbetts Brook Park                   1 Midland Avenue             Yonkers New York 10705                Both clubs are located next to each other                 in the pool house building                        on the 2nd floor.                         Plenty of parking                Please email Mike to be sure                             if you need                     handicap accessibility.                      (there is an elevator but                       we want to make sure                     it's on before you arrive)   Links to photos and videos of past open houses:   Westchester Model Railroad Club (O-Gauge):   SkyandTrains Website Photo Homepage: http://skyandtrains.com/id2.html SkyandTrains Website Photo Gallery: http://skyandtrainscom.powweb.com/coppermine/index..php?cat=7 SkyandTrains Website Videos: http://skyandtrains.com/id62.html   Directions: from Cross County Parkway going west:   Get on Cross County Parkway West. Take Exit 3 toward Mclean Ave/YONKERS. Merge onto Putnam Ave. Turn Sharp Left onto Mclean Ave. End at 1Midland Ave. Tibbets Brook Park Pool It is the large building on the Left. Directions: from the Bronx (Henry Hudson) NY-9A N / Henry Hudson Pkwy Take the Broadway /US-9 N exit 23B. Turn Right onto US-9 / Broadway / NY-9A Turn Right onto Caryl Ave. Turn Left onto Intervale Pl. Turn Left onto Coyle Pl. Turn Right onto Mclean Ave End at 1 Midland Ave. Tibbets Brook Park Pool It is the large building on the Left. Or Mapquest 1 Midland Ave. Yonkers NY. 10705    For more information contact Carol and Mike Rapp  Bionicworm1@...    Carol and Mike Rapp KA2FBL - "Hamming it up since 1979"  ARRL - YARC - WECA - BARA TCA - LCCA - METCA - WMRRC Visit our web site at: http://www.skyandtrains.com  View our YouTube channel at: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Bionicworm1 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6191	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > My first Locomotive was a Mantua Mikado I got for Christmas in either '48 or '49. I loved it and, of course, there was nothing better in my eyes than Mantua. My brother had a Shifter, w/valve gear, but neither he nor our dad could get it to work right for any length of time. Eventually he removed the valve gear and it ran ok. I had heard (read) that the Shifter was based on the C-16a but, if so, some liberties were taken. It's a nice looking engine but the running boards aren't correct on the right side and most obvious is the overly long boiler. It was done to be able to use the same casting on the Big Six. The extra length really shows between the stack and the first dome. I had an O scale International C-16 that was in pieces. I never put it together and have no idea of what happened to it. I also had a never built O scale Thomas 0-4-0 kit that I purchased ten years or so ago for $50.00 (only $10.00 more than the original 1950 price tag on the box) with the optional valve gear. It too was a C-16a with some liberties, mainly in the huge cast-on rivets on the cab and tender body. I sold that on ebay maybe five years ago for almost $300.00. There was a brass C-16 in O scale imported about six - seven years ago. It was a really nice engine and sold for only $325.00. It may have been available in 3 rail versions also. I cannot remember who imported it. I also believe Lionel did one a few years back. Someone, I'm quite sure it was Mel Thornburg, had a six part article in MR around 1951 on scratch building a C-16a. The article was written not only as a full construction article but also for use by those that had production models and wanted to super detail them. I have those magazines somewhere and will have to dig them out now that I will have one to detail. And then I'll get a Bowser/Varney C-16. John Hagen > Hi John, > > The Mantua with the square tanks isn't what I was refering to, I was referencing thier old 0-4-0 yard pony, which is the C16a with the tender, AHM did a much nicer, more detailed version of both the C16 and C16a, unfortunately, in order to get them to sell to more than just a few B&O officianados, you tend to find them in Santa Fe, UP, and a few other roadnames as well, which never existed. > > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6192	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/22/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

The Thomas version of the C-16a may have seemed oversize--it was. It was made to 17/64" scale, which corrected the scale to the track gauge--much like the Fn3 movement in Large Scale. I have one of the 0-4-0's--they also made a small 2-8-0 using the same components, but at 1/4" scale. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: >> > My first Locomotive was a Mantua Mikado I got for Christmas in > either '48 or '49. I loved it and, of course, there was nothing better > in my eyes than Mantua. My brother had a Shifter, w/valve gear, but > neither he nor our dad could get it to work right for any length of > time. Eventually he removed the valve gear and it ran ok. I had heard > (read) that the Shifter was based on the C-16a but, if so, some > liberties were taken. It's a nice looking engine but the running boards > aren't correct on the right side and most obvious is the overly long > boiler. It was done to be able to use the same casting on the Big Six. > The extra length really shows between the stack and the first dome. > > I had an O scale International C-16 that was in pieces. I never put it > together and have no idea of what happened to it. I also had a never > built O scale Thomas 0-4-0 kit that I purchased ten years or so ago for > $50.00 (only $10.00 more than the original 1950 price tag on the box) > with the optional valve gear. It too was a C-16a with some liberties, > mainly in the huge cast-on rivets on the cab and tender body. I sold > that on ebay maybe five years ago for almost $300.00. There was a brass > C-16 in O scale imported about six - seven years ago. It was a really > nice engine and sold for only $325.00. It may have been available in 3 > rail versions also. I cannot remember who imported it. I also believe > Lionel did one a few years back. > > Someone, I'm quite sure it was Mel Thornburg, had a six part article in > MR around 1951 on scratch building a C-16a. The article was written not > only as a full construction article but also for use by those that had > production models and wanted to super detail them. I have those > magazines somewhere and will have to dig them out now that I will have > one to detail. > > And then I'll get a Bowser/Varney C-16. > > John Hagen > >> Hi John, >> >> The Mantua with the square tanks isn't what I was refering to, I was > referencing thier old 0-4-0 yard pony, which is the C16a with the > tender, AHM did a much nicer, more detailed version of both the C16 and > C16a, unfortunately, in order to get them to sell to more than just a > few B&O officianados, you tend to find them in Santa Fe, UP, and a few > other roadnames as well, which never existed. >> >> >> Gary W >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6193	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Interesting you mentioned the Mantua Mike, I just picked one up last night at our division auction for $7.50, sans tender.  I am not sure what I will do with it, since it is rather bland, I may either rework it or build a new superstructure.  Regarding the Mantua Shifter and Big 6, I have several.  They share the same boiler, which is a Reading prototype, not B&O.  But, Mantua/Tyco did put out a few with B&O lettering because they looked almost like a 16a.  There are a couple of very noticeable features if you look at them.  The Mantua boiler has a taper in the mid section, the C16a had a straight boiler and 48" wheels, the Mantua comes with 51" wheels.  The wheels can be overlooked, but you really have to squint to not see the boiler taper.  I think the tender is a fairly close match and can be made to be like a C16a with different coal boards.  Currently i am doing some major rework on a Big 6 to make it look like a Southern Class A-7.  I can get it really close, but the wheel spacing isn't quite right.  It is close enough that it will pass though. In any case, I have always been able to make Mantuas run quite well, but in all honesty, I never had a switcher with the valve gear.  I would love to make or get the valve gear parts. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 04:28:00 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote: > My first Locomotive was a Mantua Mikado I got for Christmas in either '48 or '49. I loved it and, of course, there was nothing better in my eyes than Mantua. My brother had a Shifter, w/valve gear, but neither he nor our dad could get it to work right for any length of time. Eventually he removed the valve gear and it ran ok. I had heard (read) that the Shifter was based on the C-16a but, if so, some liberties were taken. It's a nice looking engine but the running boards aren't correct on the right side and most obvious is the overly long boiler. It was done to be able to use the same casting on the Big Six. The extra length really shows between the stack and the first dome. I had an O scale International C-16 that was in pieces. I never put it together and have no idea of what happened to it. I also had a never built O scale Thomas 0-4-0 kit that I purchased ten years or so ago for $50.00 (only $10.00 more than the original 1950 price tag on the box) with the optional valve gear. It too was a C-16a with some liberties, mainly in the huge cast-on rivets on the cab and tender body. I sold that on ebay maybe five years ago for almost $300.00. There was a brass C-16 in O scale imported about six - seven years ago. It was a really nice engine and sold for only $325.00. It may have been available in 3 rail versions also. I cannot remember who imported it. I also believe Lionel did one a few years back. Someone, I'm quite sure it was Mel Thornburg, had a six part article in MR around 1951 on scratch building a C-16a. The article was written not only as a full construction article but also for use by those that had production models and wanted to super detail them. I have those magazines somewhere and will have to dig them out now that I will have one to detail. And then I'll get a Bowser/Varney C-16. John Hagen > Hi John, > > The Mantua with the square tanks isn't what I was refering to, I was referencing thier old 0-4-0 yard pony, which is the C16a with the tender, AHM did a much nicer, more detailed version of both the C16 and C16a, unfortunately, in order to get them to sell to more than just a few B&O officianados, you tend to find them in Santa Fe, UP, and a few other roadnames as well, which never existed. > > > Gary W > Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6194	From: oljoeoh	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Glenn476..... I had NO idea that Thomas did a C-16. What Thomas catalog was it in? I know that Thomas did a "slope back tender" 0-4-0. I have several Thomas locos but no C-16. Any idea when it was produced? Are any pics of that C-16 available? Regards, Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > The Thomas version of the C-16a may have seemed oversize--it was. It was > made to 17/64" scale, which corrected the scale to the track gauge--much > like the Fn3 movement in Large Scale. I have one of the 0-4-0's--they also > made a small 2-8-0 using the same components, but at 1/4" scale. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:28 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@> wrote: > >> > > My first Locomotive was a Mantua Mikado I got for Christmas in > > either '48 or '49. I loved it and, of course, there was nothing better > > in my eyes than Mantua. My brother had a Shifter, w/valve gear, but > > neither he nor our dad could get it to work right for any length of > > time. Eventually he removed the valve gear and it ran ok. I had heard > > (read) that the Shifter was based on the C-16a but, if so, some > > liberties were taken. It's a nice looking engine but the running boards > > aren't correct on the right side and most obvious is the overly long > > boiler. It was done to be able to use the same casting on the Big Six. > > The extra length really shows between the stack and the first dome. > > > > I had an O scale International C-16 that was in pieces. I never put it > > together and have no idea of what happened to it. I also had a never > > built O scale Thomas 0-4-0 kit that I purchased ten years or so ago for > > $50.00 (only $10.00 more than the original 1950 price tag on the box) > > with the optional valve gear. It too was a C-16a with some liberties, > > mainly in the huge cast-on rivets on the cab and tender body. I sold > > that on ebay maybe five years ago for almost $300.00. There was a brass > > C-16 in O scale imported about six - seven years ago. It was a really > > nice engine and sold for only $325.00. It may have been available in 3 > > rail versions also. I cannot remember who imported it. I also believe > > Lionel did one a few years back. > > > > Someone, I'm quite sure it was Mel Thornburg, had a six part article in > > MR around 1951 on scratch building a C-16a. The article was written not > > only as a full construction article but also for use by those that had > > production models and wanted to super detail them. I have those > > magazines somewhere and will have to dig them out now that I will have > > one to detail. > > > > And then I'll get a Bowser/Varney C-16. > > > > John Hagen > > > >> Hi John, > >> > >> The Mantua with the square tanks isn't what I was refering to, I was > > referencing thier old 0-4-0 yard pony, which is the C16a with the > > tender, AHM did a much nicer, more detailed version of both the C16 and > > C16a, unfortunately, in order to get them to sell to more than just a > > few B&O officianados, you tend to find them in Santa Fe, UP, and a few > > other roadnames as well, which never existed. > >> > >> > >> Gary W > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6195	From: oljoeoh	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Glenn476.... Did you know that MTH also has an O gauge docksider? It really looks pretty good (I have 2 of them)? The downside is that there is no valve gear. I also have the HO AHM with full valve gear and wish I could get same for my MTH versions. The docksiders without valve gear look naked to my eyes. The upside is that the MTH offering really runs great and smokes well. Regards, Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I believe that PFM/Tenshodo made an HO Dockside--die cast, with valve gear. Other scales I know of (because I have them) N unknown mfr., HO--Varney, PFM,. Rivarossi, S-Rex, O International, US Hobbies. I think an RTR tinplate version was made by R. O. W. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Victor Bitleris > To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:18 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > > > Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. > > Vic Bitleris > Raleigh, NC > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: betsy662@... > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:58:42 -0700 > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > > > > Hi John, > > I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 ever made............:o) > > Gary W > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:40:01 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@ .> wrote: > > > > Hi John, > > > > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it > looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) > > > > Gary W > > > Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. > > I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the > model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, are > you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't > recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am > recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky > recesses.... > > Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a > minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were > originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender locomotives to > extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two docksides, 97 > & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock > area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their > lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r) " was > bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models > of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only four > prototypes built. > > When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, > respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their > wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. > > John Hagen > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6196	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

I LOVEDIT!  The graphics were a bit cheesy, but the overall effect was really COOL, especially with the music.  Now, all you need is to polish it up a bit and do it on a REAL model railroad. (Is that an oxymoron, REAL model railroad?) Keep up the good work. Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: betsy662@... Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:23:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, My C16 has full valve gear, it was done by Ben Neal of Subpar Productions, nice work huh????:o) Gary W http://youtube. com/watch? v=4kq_XGXKWuU ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 4:34:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@ ...> wrote: > > > Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. > Valve gear was optional on most, even the Varney, along with power windows and eight track players. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6197	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > In any case, I have always been able to make Mantuas run quite well, but in all honesty, I never had a switcher with the valve gear. I would love to make or get the valve gear parts. > > Regards, Vic Bitleris > Raleigh, NC Vic, I had a Mantua (as opposed to Tyco) Big Six kit a while back that I never got around to and sold during my "big train purge cause I needed money". That was when I sold the Thomas 0-4-0 and lots of other stuff. Anyway, that kit did have a valve gear included. I mention Tyco as I do not believe I ever saw a Tyco branded Big Six with a valve gear. There are people that sell parts for vintage HO and that have been mentioned in this group but I can't recall any names. Another possibility that will net you an assembled valve gear would be to watch swap meets or ebay for a Tyco Prairie. They can be found relatively cheaply and use the same mechanism (although the frame is likely different due its having leading and trailing trucks) and they came with valve gear installed. Or one of the 2-6-6-2's but that would be a bit much. Hmmm, if one had a Prairie tender, one could make an interesting 0-6- 0 with a square tender. Wonder how close one could get to a CNW 0-6-0 that way. Just a thought. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6198	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > Glenn476..... > I had NO idea that Thomas did a C-16. What Thomas catalog > was it in? I know that Thomas did a "slope back tender" > 0-4-0. I have several Thomas locos but no C-16. Any > idea when it was produced? Are any pics of that C-16 > available? > Regards, > Joe O'Loughlin Joe, C-16a tender version only, no c-16 0-4-0T's. Back in the day when the 0-4-0 was in production the magazines of the era proclaimed it to be based on the B&O's converted Docksides #96 & 99. The proportions are there although I can't recall the layout of the running boards or other details. My thought was to use the Thornburg article to build a detailed model of a C-16a. After taking a closer look, it would have been a challenging undertaking, likely requiring building a new cab and tender superstructure if only to eliminate those cast-on rivets. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6199	From: oljoeoh	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Oh well. The c-16 slope back is a cutie also. I think I will take another look at possibilities. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@> wrote: > > > > Glenn476..... > > I had NO idea that Thomas did a C-16. What Thomas catalog > > was it in? I know that Thomas did a "slope back tender" > > 0-4-0. I have several Thomas locos but no C-16. Any > > idea when it was produced? Are any pics of that C-16 > > available? > > Regards, > > Joe O'Loughlin > > Joe, > > C-16a tender version only, no c-16 0-4-0T's. Back in the day when the > 0-4-0 was in production the magazines of the era proclaimed it to be > based on the B&O's converted Docksides #96 & 99. The proportions are > there although I can't recall the layout of the running boards or > other details. My thought was to use the Thornburg article to build a > detailed model of a C-16a. After taking a closer look, it would have > been a challenging undertaking, likely requiring building a new cab > and tender superstructure if only to eliminate those cast-on rivets. > > John Hagen >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6200	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Hi Vic, When videos get uploaded to youtube, they are converted to .flv files, and the quality suffers, fortunately I was using fraps when I made the series of videos, the graphics look much better when your actually using the game, or if you make a video with all of the .avi files that are made by the fraps, and then convert them to .wmv files, I can also convert those to mpeg4 and put them to DVD, and the effects on a full size television are far more stunning.........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:49:45 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... I LOVEDIT!  The graphics were a bit cheesy, but the overall effect was really COOL, especially with the music.  Now, all you need is to polish it up a bit and do it on a REAL model railroad. (Is that an oxymoron, REAL model railroad?) Keep up the good work. Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: betsy662@yahoo. com Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:23:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... Hi John, My C16 has full valve gear, it was done by Ben Neal of Subpar Productions, nice work huh????:o) Gary W http://youtube. com/watch? v=4kq_XGXKWuU ----- Original Message ---- From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 4:34:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@ ...> wrote: > > > Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. > Valve gear was optional on most, even the Varney, along with power windows and eight track players. John Hagen Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6201	From: Walter	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....

I remember the ice-man, and his truck, with that rusty grinder. He would put a whole block in the top of it, turn it on (Gasoline engine, I think) and make crushed ice for some customers. He had a lot of customers in the apartment house next to mine, and it was a 4 story walk-up, with an ice-block on his back! He came around maybe into the late 1940's, early 1950's, in my NYC neighborhood. THIS TRUCK WOULD MAKE AN INTERESTING MODEL! The first Fridge I remember was powered by natural gas! I don't remember the brand, or the brand of the electric that replaced it. Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6202	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....

I believe it was Servel.  It used a small flame to heat/pressurize an ammonia refrigerant solution, then it went thru an expansion valve & coil in the fridge, which produced the freezing temps in the coil.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Walter Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:25 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....   I remember the ice-man, and his truck, with that rusty grinder. He would put a whole block in the top of it, turn it on (Gasoline engine, I think) and make crushed ice for some customers. He had a lot of customers in the apartment house next to mine, and it was a 4 story walk-up, with an ice-block on his back! He came around maybe into the late 1940's, early 1950's, in my NYC neighborhood. THIS TRUCK WOULD MAKE AN INTERESTING MODEL! The first Fridge I remember was powered by natural gas! I don't remember the brand, or the brand of the electric that replaced it. Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6203	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Check my comment--C-16a-- with a tender. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:42 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > Glenn476..... > I had NO idea that Thomas did a C-16. What Thomas catalog > was it in? I know that Thomas did a "slope back tender" > 0-4-0. I have several Thomas locos but no C-16. Any > idea when it was produced? Are any pics of that C-16 > available? > Regards, > Joe O'Loughlin > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> The Thomas version of the C-16a may have seemed oversize--it was. > It was >> made to 17/64" scale, which corrected the scale to the track > gauge--much >> like the Fn3 movement in Large Scale. I have one of the > 0-4-0's--they also >> made a small 2-8-0 using the same components, but at 1/4" scale. gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:28 PM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... >> >> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@> wrote: >> >> >> > My first Locomotive was a Mantua Mikado I got for Christmas in >> > either '48 or '49. I loved it and, of course, there was nothing better >> > in my eyes than Mantua. My brother had a Shifter, w/valve gear, but >> > neither he nor our dad could get it to work right for any length of >> > time. Eventually he removed the valve gear and it ran ok. I had heard >> > (read) that the Shifter was based on the C-16a but, if so, some >> > liberties were taken. It's a nice looking engine but the running > boards >> > aren't correct on the right side and most obvious is the overly long >> > boiler. It was done to be able to use the same casting on the Big Six. >> > The extra length really shows between the stack and the first dome. >> > >> > I had an O scale International C-16 that was in pieces. I never put it >> > together and have no idea of what happened to it. I also had a never >> > built O scale Thomas 0-4-0 kit that I purchased ten years or so > ago for >> > $50.00 (only $10.00 more than the original 1950 price tag on the box) >> > with the optional valve gear. It too was a C-16a with some liberties, >> > mainly in the huge cast-on rivets on the cab and tender body. I sold >> > that on ebay maybe five years ago for almost $300.00. There was a > brass >> > C-16 in O scale imported about six - seven years ago. It was a really >> > nice engine and sold for only $325.00. It may have been available in 3 >> > rail versions also. I cannot remember who imported it. I also believe >> > Lionel did one a few years back. >> > >> > Someone, I'm quite sure it was Mel Thornburg, had a six part > article in >> > MR around 1951 on scratch building a C-16a. The article was > written not >> > only as a full construction article but also for use by those that had >> > production models and wanted to super detail them. I have those >> > magazines somewhere and will have to dig them out now that I will have >> > one to detail. >> > >> > And then I'll get a Bowser/Varney C-16. >> > >> > John Hagen >> > >> >> Hi John, >> >> >> >> The Mantua with the square tanks isn't what I was refering to, I was >> > referencing thier old 0-4-0 yard pony, which is the C16a with the >> > tender, AHM did a much nicer, more detailed version of both the > C16 and >> > C16a, unfortunately, in order to get them to sell to more than just a >> > few B&O officianados, you tend to find them in Santa Fe, UP, and a few >> > other roadnames as well, which never existed. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary W >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6204	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Speaking of the Thomas--any idea where I can find a set of motor brushes for the Thomas motor? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:49 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > Glenn476.... > Did you know that MTH also has an O gauge docksider? It really > looks pretty good (I have 2 of them)? The downside > is that there is no valve gear. I also have the HO AHM > with full valve gear and wish I could get same for > my MTH versions. The docksiders without valve > gear look naked to my eyes. The upside is that the > MTH offering really runs great and smokes well. > Regards, > Joe O'Loughlin > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> I believe that PFM/Tenshodo made an HO Dockside--die cast, with > valve gear. Other scales I know of (because I have them) N unknown > mfr., HO--Varney, PFM,. Rivarossi, S-Rex, O International, US > Hobbies. I think an RTR tinplate version was made by R. O. W. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Victor Bitleris >> To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:18 PM >> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... >> >> >> Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the > dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the > difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much > nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. >> >> Vic Bitleris >> Raleigh, NC >> >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> From: betsy662@... >> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:58:42 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... >> >> >> >> Hi John, >> >> I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but > also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo > Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I > believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the > most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 > ever made............:o) >> >> Gary W >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:40:01 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... >> >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@ .> wrote: >> > >> > Hi John, >> > >> > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it >> looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) >> > >> > Gary W >> > >> Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. >> >> I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the >> model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, > are >> you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't >> recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am >> recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky >> recesses.... >> >> Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a >> minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were >> originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender > locomotives to >> extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two > docksides, 97 >> & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock >> area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their >> lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r) " > was >> bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models >> of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only > four >> prototypes built. >> >> When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, >> respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their >> wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. >> >> John Hagen >> >> >> >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > Mobile. Try it now. >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause. >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6205	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Problem with the MTH stuff is it needs an extra rail. ----- Original Message ----- From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6206	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

I dropped a photo of my Varney Dockside into the "Cinder Valley" album. Notice the valve gear. When I bought Little Joe in 1951, Varney did not sell valve gear for it. The valve gear you see was a seperate kit manufactured by Central Valley. Also of note, the Varney tank car also in the picture was lettered with HObbyline decals. I still have some of those decal sheets but they are so old they are cracking and would be hard to use today. Bill DeFoe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6207	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....

We have an antique Ice Box--it has a footprint a bit larger than a typical refrigerator, Oak cabinet with white porcelain on steel inside. Label says "Leonard" Made for Union Ice Co. My family got it with a cabin in Capitola, CA that was built by an SP employee back in the 1920's--it also had a 4-burner Ivanhoe kerosene stove and a kerosene water heater--fire dept didn't like that--but the fire chief owned the garage where we got fuel for it. My sister had the place in the 70's--sold the stove but I insisted on the ice box--it makes great mouse-proof storage for snacks--my cousin has it as part of the decor in a historic house. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter" <bayerw@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:24 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend..... >I remember the ice-man, and his truck, with that rusty grinder. He would >put > a whole block in the top of it, turn it on (Gasoline engine, I think) and > make crushed ice for some customers. He had a lot of customers in the > apartment house next to mine, and it was a 4 story walk-up, with an > ice-block on his back! He came around maybe into the late 1940's, early > 1950's, in my NYC neighborhood. THIS TRUCK WOULD MAKE AN INTERESTING > MODEL! > > The first Fridge I remember was powered by natural gas! I don't remember > the > brand, or the brand of the electric that replaced it. > > Regards, > Walter > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6208	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: She is round the bend

The little jewel arrived, looking every bit as good as it did in the ebay photos. And I'm thinking that $25.00 I paid wasn't too bad as the price in 1963 was $12.95. Lets see new Dodges were available in the range of $1200.00 to maybe $2500.00 back then and now the cheapest of any normal sized Dodge (Avenger sedan) is what, $18,000.00? And a nice 1963 could go anywhere from $6,000.00 to $35,000.00 for Max Wedges....Yep, the price was ok. Went to HOseeker and checked the 1963 and 1967 AHM catalogs. Both the C-16 and the C-16a, like the one I just received, were in there and listed as such. Even told of story of the conversion to C-16a's. Both had full valve gears and the C-16 was $9.95. According to the '67 issue, the C-16a's were scrapped in '44 & '45 while the (mostly) unmolested C-16's made it to 1951. One of the messages in the original thread mentioned the smaller driver size (40") versus the prototype (48"). This was necessary to clear the large flanges of those early AHM products. I will see if I can find some closer to scale drivers with rp-25 flanges. And replace that three pole motor they used for years on end. But I am quite happy with overall look of it. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6209	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote: > > I dropped a photo of my Varney Dockside into the "Cinder Valley" > album. Notice the valve gear. When I bought Little Joe in 1951, > Varney did not sell valve gear for it. The valve gear you see was a > seperate kit manufactured by Central Valley. > > Also of note, the Varney tank car also in the picture was lettered with > HObbyline decals. I still have some of those decal sheets but they are > so old they are cracking and would be hard to use today. > > Bill DeFoe > Bill, that is a nice looking C-16. Nice photo too. I don't know that Varney ever made a valve gear for the Dockside themselves. Why go through the bother when the Central Valley fit and worked well. If your are interested in having dups of those HObbyline decals, contact me off group. I do print decals and can redo the artwork from scans or photos. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6210	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....

My wife, bless her for putting up with me for about thirty years now,  still will occasionally ask if the food is cooled enough to put in the fridge. And I still explain to her that was only a habit from the icebox era. With ice, the cooler things are when put in the icebox, the longer the ice lasts. That’s not such a big deal if you have one of them new fangled Frigidaire’s.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn476 Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 18:46 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: The Ice-man's a=comin' round the bend.....   We have an antique Ice Box--it has a footprint a bit larger than a typical refrigerator, Oak cabinet with white porcelain on steel inside. Label says "Leonard" Made for Union Ice Co. My family got it with a cabin in Capitola, CA that was built by an SP employee back in the 1920's--it also had a 4-burner Ivanhoe kerosene stove and a kerosene water heater--fire dept didn't like that--but the fire chief owned the garage where we got fuel for it. My sister had the place in the 70's--sold the stove but I insisted on the ice box--it makes great mouse-proof storage for snacks--my cousin has it as part of the decor in a historic house. gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6211	From: Glenn476	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She is round the bend

I am the one who mentioned the 40" drivers--as applied to O Scale Docksides--and there was plenty of room for scale-diameter wheels.--All the smaller scale Docksides I have seen had proper-size drivers. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> One of the messages in the original thread mentioned the smaller > driver size (40") versus the prototype (48"). This was necessary to > clear the large flanges of those early AHM products. I will see if I > can find some closer to scale drivers with rp-25 flanges.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6212	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She is round the bend

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I am the one who mentioned the 40" drivers--as applied to O Scale > Docksides--and there was plenty of room for scale-diameter wheels.-- All the > smaller scale Docksides I have seen had proper-size drivers. gj Thanks, Glenn John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6213	From: Charles Windes	Date: 4/23/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

Mine had dingie bobbles hangin from the windshield Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:34:02 -0000 > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the > dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the > difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much > nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. > > > Valve gear was optional on most, even the Varney, along with power > windows and eight track players. > > John Hagen > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6214	From: oljoeoh	Date: 4/24/2008
Subject: Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend.....

For what it's worth - Thomas motors were made by Pittman. It's a long shot but why not start there. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Speaking of the Thomas--any idea where I can find a set of motor brushes for > the Thomas motor? gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:49 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > > > > Glenn476.... > > Did you know that MTH also has an O gauge docksider? It really > > looks pretty good (I have 2 of them)? The downside > > is that there is no valve gear. I also have the HO AHM > > with full valve gear and wish I could get same for > > my MTH versions. The docksiders without valve > > gear look naked to my eyes. The upside is that the > > MTH offering really runs great and smokes well. > > Regards, > > Joe O'Loughlin > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > >> I believe that PFM/Tenshodo made an HO Dockside--die cast, with > > valve gear. Other scales I know of (because I have them) N unknown > > mfr., HO--Varney, PFM,. Rivarossi, S-Rex, O International, US > > Hobbies. I think an RTR tinplate version was made by R. O. W. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Victor Bitleris > >> To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:18 PM > >> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > >> > >> > >> Yes, but be aware that AHM and even some other makers made the > > dockside WITH and WITHOUT the valve gear. You can very easily see the > > difference between them. The ones with the valve gear look SOOO much > > nicer and they are prototypical to B&O as well. > >> > >> Vic Bitleris > >> Raleigh, NC > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> From: betsy662@ > >> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:58:42 -0700 > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi John, > >> > >> I've had both models, the Dockside was made not only by AHM, but > > also by Bowser/Varney, (still available), Life Like made an el cheapo > > Dockside, as did Mantua, there were a few brassies in O scale, and I > > believe that Bachman made one in N scale, its got to be one of the > > most modeled engines ever, and yet, just as you say, there were only 4 > > ever made............:o) > >> > >> Gary W > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: John Hagen <sprinthag@> > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:40:01 AM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: She'll be a=comin' round the bend..... > >> > >> > >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@ .> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi John, > >> > > >> > Yep, that looks like an old AHM alright, that is also what it > >> looked like before it was made into the Docksider... .....:o) > >> > > >> > Gary W > >> > > >> Fred and Gary, thanks for your replies. > >> > >> I don't see parts being a problem as my goal is not to preserve the > >> model as originally built but rather to ape the prototype. Gary, > > are > >> you referring to the model being made into the docksider? I didn't > >> recall AHM/Rivarossi making a dockside when I read it but now I am > >> recalling seeing such a thing advertized. But again, the murky > >> recesses.... > >> > >> Just for anyone who my not be familiar with the prototype (likely a > >> minority in this group), B&O #'s 96 & 99 (class C-16a) were > >> originally docksides before being rebuilt into tender > > locomotives to > >> extend the time between fuel/water stops. The other two > > docksides, 97 > >> & 98 (class C-16) remained as built. All worked the Baltimore dock > >> area, which had close clearances and tight curves, throughout their > >> lives, with 97 & 98 lasting the longest. The name "Dockside(r) " > > was > >> bestowed on them due to this service. It is amazing how many models > >> of this engine have been sold when one considers there were only > > four > >> prototypes built. > >> > >> When I drift away from my first and second loves (GBW and CNW, > >> respectively) I find myself enthralled with the B&O due to their > >> wonderful variety of steam power and sharp first generation diesels. > >> > >> John Hagen > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > Mobile. Try it now. > >> > >> > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause. > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6215	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 4/24/2008
Subject: MDC 3 bay B&LE o/s hoppers.

Hello: Thanks for the input Guys. My impression also is  that there were 3 sets of 12 and possibly a couple of single numbers. Frank, what's wrong with a unit train of 36 B&LE 3 bays? No problem from this freight car nut. I will try to find the comments on the list suggested. I have not seen the Bowser car yet. Regards, Al Campbell Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6216	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 4/25/2008
Subject: MDC B&LE hoppers

Al. Not exactly "wrong" (note, I said I was one of the fish who got the whole 36 cars). But try to fit that "unit train" on a typical layout (behind, say, 2 SDs or a 2-10-4). Or even 18 loads in one direction and 18 empties in the other. The guys who limit themselves to 2-8-0's and such and 4-6 car trains get rewarded for their discipline. :) Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6217	From: patikabeadworks	Date: 5/1/2008
Subject: help newbie here

Hi Joey here I have these trains would be able to give a good price range i can sell them for ? [IMG] http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/patikabeadworks/trains/toy006.j pg[/IMG] [IMG] http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/patikabeadworks/trains/toy009.j pg[/IMG] [IMG] http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/patikabeadworks/trains/toy036.j pg[/IMG] [IMG] http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/patikabeadworks/trains/toy033.j pg[/IMG]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6218	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/1/2008
Subject: Re: help newbie here

Lionel is pretty much outside of our area of expertise here, but perhaps someone can contact you offlist regarding these. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: "patikabeadworks" <patikabeadworks@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 7:21 AM Subject: [vintageHO] help newbie here > Hi Joey here I have these trains would be able to give a good price > range i can sell them for ? > [IMG] > http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/patikabeadworks/trains/toy006.j > pg[/IMG] > [IMG] > http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/patikabeadworks/trains/toy009.j > pg[/IMG] > [IMG] > http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/patikabeadworks/trains/toy036.j > pg[/IMG] > [IMG] > http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/patikabeadworks/trains/toy033.j > pg[/IMG] > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6219	From: Jack Priller	Date: 5/2/2008
Subject: MDC 2-Truck Shay kit #360

This was found during "spring cleaning" at my local club; I have a reputation for honesty that prevents me from saying ANNUAL spring cleaning. HO "layout master" disavows any knowledge of when it was acquired, and has no intention of using it on said layout. Instructions are dated 7-83, and include the 1-83 "change notice". Appears to be complete, and in original box, which looks good except for a bit of El Paso dust on it. One just like this sold a couple weeks back on eBay for $63 plus shipping; first $50 gets this one, and I pay the shipping. Will take pictures if requested; contact me off-list. Jack Priller Vice-president Railroad Model and Historical Association of El Paso

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6220	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/2/2008
Subject: Re: MDC 2-Truck Shay kit #360

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:02 AM Subject: [vintageHO] MDC 2-Truck Shay kit #360 > This was found during "spring cleaning" at my local club; I have > a reputation for honesty that prevents me from saying ANNUAL spring > cleaning. HO "layout master" disavows any knowledge of when it was > acquired, and has no intention of using it on said layout. > Instructions are dated 7-83, and include the 1-83 "change notice". > Appears to be complete, and in original box, which looks good except > for a bit of El Paso dust on it. > One just like this sold a couple weeks back on eBay for $63 plus > shipping; first $50 gets this one, and I pay the shipping. Will take > pictures if requested; contact me off-list. > > Jack Priller > Vice-president > Railroad Model and Historical Association of El Paso There's been one of those sitting on my marination shelf for about 20 years. Maybe someday I'll actually build it. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6221	From: sswcharlie	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2

I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. Thanks Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6222	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2

----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6223	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2

I think most Rivarossi articulateds were 8-coupled--other than the Challenger and more recently the Allegheny. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:33 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6224	From: Steven Winter	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2

Didn't AHM/Rivarossi make a cab forward in the late '60's early '70's?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6225	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2

Steve Yeah, the reason I know is I drooled and drooled aver the thing but never bought one, really wished I had the money for one but still do not have money for an old one. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Didn't AHM/Rivarossi make a cab forward in the late '60's early '70's?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6226	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2

I think they still do, at least they did not too long ago, before their bankruptcy.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 Didn't AHM/Rivarossi make a cab forward in the late '60's early '70's?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6227	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Laconia

Recently picked up myself a bunch of unassembled vintage kits on eBay. One of them was a Laconia Alcoa aluminum quad hopper, in paper and wood. According to the instructions, they also made the basic body, with different bays, lettered for the Pennsy. I have a Pennsy car somewhere, that I always thought was a Picard Novelty Co. maybe. (Note to Don Dellman, the open hoppers in your Picard picture folder may also be Laconia). Nice car, the Alcoa Aluminum car, I assembled it last night to unwind from a long day. It came less trucks, but I have some Varney 'high centers' I can use. My plan is to dig those up and some Kadee #4s and get it on my railroad. I'm happy to have solved a mystery of who made one of my cars. The strange thing is, the Alcoa private owner livery is factory original, they even mention it in the instructions, but faintly, underneath it, you can see the Pennsy livery. Anyone have a guess why they did this? War effort shortage of material maybe? I'm thinking this is a WWII era kit, somewhere in that timeframe. Not very noticable, just a curiousity. -Steve N.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6228	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia

----- Original Message ----- From: "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 2:45 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Laconia > Recently picked up myself a bunch of unassembled vintage kits on eBay. > One of them was a Laconia Alcoa aluminum quad hopper, in paper and > wood. According to the instructions, they also made the basic body, > with different bays, lettered for the Pennsy. I have a Pennsy car > somewhere, that I always thought was a Picard Novelty Co. maybe. > > (Note to Don Dellman, the open hoppers in your Picard picture folder > may also be Laconia). > > Nice car, the Alcoa Aluminum car, I assembled it last night to unwind > from a long day. It came less trucks, but I have some Varney 'high > centers' I can use. My plan is to dig those up and some Kadee #4s and > get it on my railroad. > > I'm happy to have solved a mystery of who made one of my cars. The > strange thing is, the Alcoa private owner livery is factory original, > they even mention it in the instructions, but faintly, underneath it, > you can see the Pennsy livery. Anyone have a guess why they did this? > War effort shortage of material maybe? I'm thinking this is a WWII era > kit, somewhere in that timeframe. Not very noticable, just a curiousity. > > -Steve N. Great find! I wouldn't mind finding one of those, as well as the dry ice car (at one time I had one). My hoppers don't have any paper parts, the sides were unpainted milled wood with the wooden ribs glued on, that's why I think they're picards. I've been working on passenger cars lately, a list menber sent me a Walthers FP-1H PRR pullman last week, along with a beautiful unbuilt Blue Line sleeper in factory PRR paint. I discovered an interesting thing about Blue Line. Going by the dates on the instruction sheets, the three sleepers and one baggage I have are from somewhere between 1947 and 1953. They were unpainted with the sides and roof formed out of 1 piece of aluminum sheet (not milled, on the baggage which I'm building now, you can still see the "Alcoa" trademard inked on the metal). 1953 and newer, the painted cars, the bodies are 3 piece, with additional "sub sides" inside. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6229	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2

Stop drooling.  The reason I had the parts lists were because I had one, it could pull maybe five cars before it threw a side rod, stripping out the crankpin hole on the driver and burning out the motor in the process.  I never did get it running again, I THINK Mike Bauers has it somehwre in his basement.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2 Steve Yeah, the reason I know is I drooled and drooled aver the thing but never bought one, really wished I had the money for one but still do not have money for an old one. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Didn't AHM/Rivarossi make a cab forward in the late '60's early '70's?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@...! m     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6230	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2

No...... the 2-6-6-2 is resting somewhere else. It didn't migrate over here. Doesn't this sound more like the Aristo-Craft 2-6-6-2 that came out in the most earliest days of AHM ??? Could be thus confused ........ The only AHM Cab Forward I've ever seen and run was the 4-8-8-2 version......... I used to think of taking those, flipping the chassis around, and making DM&IR Yelllowstones out of some with the Monogram DM&IR version of the static Big Boy plastic kit. I do have Don's broken 2-10-4 Bachman Texas.......... ;^) Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On May 3, 2008, at 4:15 PM, Don Dellmann wrote: Stop drooling.  The reason I had the parts lists were because I had one, it could pull maybe five cars before it threw a side rod, stripping out the crankpin hole on the driver and burning out the motor in the process.  I never did get it running again, I THINK Mike Bauers has it somehwre in his basement.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes Steve Yeah, the reason I know is I drooled and drooled aver the thing but never bought one, really wished I had the money for one but still do not have money for an old one. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter"  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Didn't AHM/Rivarossi make a cab forward in the late '60's early '70's?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 ----- Original Message -----  From: "sswcharlie"  >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for  at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6231	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2

Yes, but it was the AC-7,8, 10-12 style 4-8-8-2, not the  2-6-6-2/4-6-6-2 MM-2/AM-2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 Didn't AHM/Rivarossi make a cab forward in the late '60's early '70's?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6232	From: C. Larry Bowen	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: POCHER

Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the lead-truck wheels on the Loco. The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. Thanks, Larry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6233	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

I believe Pocher is one of the lines brought in under the banner of "Associated Hobby Manufacturers" or AHM. So you might check with IHC for parts--although a pilot wheel set can come from anywhere--a non-match would be prototypical as long as the diameter is the same. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. Larry Bowen" <larrybowen4185@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:35 PM Subject: [vintageHO] POCHER > Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? > A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of > 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be > low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the > lead-truck wheels on the Loco. > The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. > Thanks, > Larry > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6234	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2

OK, the 2-10-4 was what I was thinking of.  I know I gave you one of the two when we were cleaning out the basement when I moved from West Allis.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2 No...... the 2-6-6-2 is resting somewhere else. It didn't migrate over here. Doesn't this sound more like the Aristo-Craft 2-6-6-2 that came out in the most earliest days of AHM ??? Could be thus confused ........ The only AHM Cab Forward I've ever seen and run was the 4-8-8-2 version......... I used to think of taking those, flipping the chassis around, and making DM&IR Yelllowstones out of some with the Monogram DM&IR version of the static Big Boy plastic kit. I do have Don's broken 2-10-4 Bachman Texas.......... ;^) Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6235	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

Hi Larry, Which one of the V&T 4-4-0's did you get? There were 3 of them that were offered by AHM, that is who imported Pocher back in the 60's and 70's, if your in need of a new pilot truck, there are junkers on ebay all the time, you might also contact Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains, he might be able to help you out there also, but if you can get your hands on a parts engine off of ebay or at a train show, any of the three AHM 4-4-0's can yield a pilot truck, in fact, I believe in the real world, the Reno was a rebuild of the original Genoa...........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: C. Larry Bowen <larrybowen4185@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:35:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] POCHER Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the lead-truck wheels on the Loco. The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. Thanks, Larry Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6236	From: John Plott	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

Larry,   You found one of the old ones.  The tender had the motor in it and there is a drive shaft to the locomotive with gear driven drive wheels.  Usually you can find the units but the drive shaft is gone.  I just manufactured a drive shaft for someone else, a little noisy but runs well.  It can handle a few of the MDC Overtons.  Sometimes the lead truck shows up on the Internet but there are a few people out there that have them sitting in an old junk box.    Later,   John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6237	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

Thanks Guys and Gary it is the Reno and still like new other than some dust.  And I haven't tried running it yet.  Thanks, Larry Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: Hi Larry, Which one of the V&T 4-4-0's did you get? There were 3 of them that were offered by AHM, that is who imported Pocher back in the 60's and 70's, if your in need of a new pilot truck, there are junkers on ebay all the time, you might also contact Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains, he might be able to help you out there also, but if you can get your hands on a parts engine off of ebay or at a train show, any of the three AHM 4-4-0's can yield a pilot truck, in fact, I believe in the real world, the Reno was a rebuild of the original Genoa....... ....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: C. Larry Bowen <larrybowen4185@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:35:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] POCHER Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the lead-truck wheels on the Loco. The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. Thanks, Larry Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. GROWING OLD IS MANDATORY, GROWING UP IS OPTIONAL Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6238	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

Hi Larry, Ah! The Reno, a real beauty, Pocher did a nice job on those, other than the drive units anyway, they would pull my old timer MDC cars without much problem, and back in those days I did have the full collection of all things AHM, thanks to retail outlets such as Woolworth and Woolco............:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Bowen <larrybowen4185@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 9:34:52 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER Thanks Guys and Gary it is the Reno and still like new other than some dust.  And I haven't tried running it yet.  Thanks, Larry Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote: Hi Larry, Which one of the V&T 4-4-0's did you get? There were 3 of them that were offered by AHM, that is who imported Pocher back in the 60's and 70's, if your in need of a new pilot truck, there are junkers on ebay all the time, you might also contact Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains, he might be able to help you out there also, but if you can get your hands on a parts engine off of ebay or at a train show, any of the three AHM 4-4-0's can yield a pilot truck, in fact, I believe in the real world, the Reno was a rebuild of the original Genoa....... ....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: C. Larry Bowen <larrybowen4185@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:35:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] POCHER Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the lead-truck wheels on the Loco. The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. Thanks, Larry Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. GROWING OLD IS MANDATORY, GROWING UP IS OPTIONAL Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6239	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Another Done Resurrection, the 4-6-2 Project

Hi All, With some things still needing to get done to the Pacific, mostly cosmetic, the engine is running and rarin to go, today she pulled her first passenger train on the West Hernando Central, the Flying Mermaid, (sorry, its all I could think of on the spur of the moment, also since the flying mermaid is also the mascot of the West Hernando Central), she runs real good, has good slow speed operation as well as can also pull a passenger train at passenger train speeds. The things that will be done to it to finish it up will include putting a real Mantua trailing truck underneath her, as the old Pemco trailing truck just isn't cutting it, may also eventully put a Mantua pilot onto it, the headlight is mounted low, on the deck of the pilot, it hasn't been given any lighting yet. A little while into my shakedown runs, some friends showed up with their trains, John showed up with his N&W Class J, complete with sound and is DCC equipped, even though I muted the soundtrack in order to cut all the chatter that was going on while I was there, so I installed a music track, John also brought his entire Empire State Express, a truly beautiful train, all in all, it was an interesting day.......:o) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El6ggBJhLS4 Gary W Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6240	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/3/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

As I recall, "Reno" and "Genoa" were sister engines--one was modeled "as built" and the other "modernized".   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER Hi Larry, Which one of the V&T 4-4-0's did you get? There were 3 of them that were offered by AHM, that is who imported Pocher back in the 60's and 70's, if your in need of a new pilot truck, there are junkers on ebay all the time, you might also contact Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains, he might be able to help you out there also, but if you can get your hands on a parts engine off of ebay or at a train show, any of the three AHM 4-4-0's can yield a pilot truck, in fact, I believe in the real world, the Reno was a rebuild of the original Genoa...........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: C. Larry Bowen <larrybowen4185@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:35:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] POCHER Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the lead-truck wheels on the Loco. The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. Thanks, Larry Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6241	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

Glenn476 wrote: > As I recall, "Reno" and "Genoa" were sister engines--one was modeled > "as built" and the other "modernized". gj I remember the Pocher factory burned , and Rivarossi apparently collected the leftover parts/ molds. Some things were changed, for example, real Pocher Old time cars had very short wheelbase trucks. When I got my first American in the early seventies it still was marked Pocher ( on the tender floor) and had a can motor ( not sure if this is a real "can" motor, at least it has a cylindrical case) , while an other model I picked up some years ago at a swap meet has a different tender floor without markings, and an open frame motor. Loco cab is marked "91", tender body was missing when I got her and has been replaced by a MDC narrow gauge tender shell which is almost a perfect match. So I dont know which road it represented initially. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6242	From: johnbo67	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: HO Model Help Needed

May-03-08 08:27 PDT Purchased these HO Model Kits at an estate auction. I think I might have overpayed for them with the exception of the one I haven't pictured as I was able to locate information on that model and that was worth 3/4 of the money I spent. I could have a gotten a few more but I didn't win the other lot. All the kits are in the boxes and some are unassembled and some are partially assembled. I couldn't find much information on web searches so I'm wondering if there is any interest in them or if they are just hard to find. I would like to know approximate value of each or a good resource to find the info. Links to pictures below. Thanks. John LABELLE http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2438_edited.jpg Ambroid http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2439_edited.jpg KADEE AND RED BALL http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2441_edited.jpg CLIFF LINE AND MAIN LINE MODEL http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2442_edited.jpg HUNTINGDON MODEL WORKS http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2443_edited.jpg BALBOA MODEL WORKS - SLIM PRINCESS http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2444_edited.jpg TIMBERLINE POST OFFICE http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2445_edited.jpg

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6243	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: HO Model Help Needed

----- Original Message ----- From: "johnbo67" <johnbo67@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] HO Model Help Needed > May-03-08 08:27 PDT > Purchased these HO Model Kits at an estate auction. I think I might > have overpayed for them with the exception of the one I haven't > pictured as I was able to locate information on that model and that > was worth 3/4 of the money I spent. I could have a gotten a few more > but I didn't win the other lot. > > All the kits are in the boxes and some are unassembled and some are > partially assembled. I couldn't find much information on web searches > so I'm wondering if there is any interest in them or if they are just > hard to find. I would like to know approximate value of each or a > good resource to find the info. Links to pictures below. Thanks. John > > LABELLE > http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2438_edited.jpg > > Ambroid > http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2439_edited.jpg > > KADEE AND RED BALL > http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2441_edited.jpg > > CLIFF LINE AND MAIN LINE MODEL > http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2442_edited.jpg > > HUNTINGDON MODEL WORKS > http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2443_edited.jpg > > BALBOA MODEL WORKS - SLIM PRINCESS > http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2444_edited.jpg > > TIMBERLINE POST OFFICE > http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc117/johar67/DSCF2445_edited.jpg Nothing really rare or unusual, but all nice kits. I hope you're going to build them. Other people's opinions may vary, but purchased all in a lot, I would say about five bucks apiece would have been fair. If you were going to resell them on eBay, I see most of these kinds of kits usually selling in the $ 10 - $ 20 range. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6244	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

Hi Glenn, Out of the Reno, the Genoa and the Inyo, one of them was a modernization into another I believe........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2008 2:38:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER As I recall, "Reno" and "Genoa" were sister engines--one was modeled "as built" and the other "modernized" .   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER Hi Larry, Which one of the V&T 4-4-0's did you get? There were 3 of them that were offered by AHM, that is who imported Pocher back in the 60's and 70's, if your in need of a new pilot truck, there are junkers on ebay all the time, you might also contact Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains, he might be able to help you out there also, but if you can get your hands on a parts engine off of ebay or at a train show, any of the three AHM 4-4-0's can yield a pilot truck, in fact, I believe in the real world, the Reno was a rebuild of the original Genoa....... ....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: C. Larry Bowen <larrybowen4185@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:35:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] POCHER Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the lead-truck wheels on the Loco. The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. Thanks, Larry Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6245	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2

Yeah I think it is another erason I did not get one bought the Owner of the Model RailRoad Shop kept telling me to wait and they would improve their performance, Oh Well. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2 Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 15:15:22 -0600 Stop drooling.  The reason I had the parts lists were because I had one, it could pull maybe five cars before it threw a side rod, stripping out the crankpin hole on the driver and burning out the motor in the process.  I never did get it running again, I THINK Mike Bauers has it somehwre in his basement.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2 Steve Yeah, the reason I know is I drooled and drooled aver the thing but never bought one, really wished I had the money for one but still do not have money for an old one. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Didn't AHM/Rivarossi make a cab forward in the late '60's early '70's?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@...! m     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6246	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: HO Model Help Needed

Personally......... Most of the kits are not in production and thus whatever you paid for them is likely fair enough for hard to find items. I hope you go and build or complete enough of them to get some enjoyment out of getting them into your hands. Build in humble amazement at what we used to be able to buy as a $3- $5 kit..... The monetary value of any of those is simply what the buyer is willing to pay. The joy of completing something that someone likely started building 30-40 years ago is quite priceless, and worth much more than what a partly built kit will fetch. Do save those partly built kits from oblivion by completing them, and enjoying them. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On May 3, 2008, at 9:47 PM, johnbo67 wrote: > May-03-08 08:27 PDT > Purchased these HO Model Kits at an estate auction. I think I might > have overpayed for them with the exception of the one I haven't > pictured as I was able to locate information on that model and that > was worth 3/4 of the money I spent. I could have a gotten a few more > but I didn't win the other lot. > > All the kits are in the boxes and some are unassembled and some are > partially assembled.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6247	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

I just looked in Ferrell"s book--Reno and Genoa were 1872-73, Inyo 1875. main dimension are the same.  Point to make though is--at any given point in their history, they would have a similar appearance..it may be that only one lasted to "full modernization".  but for a layout set in say 1885, the three would be similar in appearance.  gj   ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER Hi Glenn, Out of the Reno, the Genoa and the Inyo, one of them was a modernization into another I believe........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2008 2:38:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER As I recall, "Reno" and "Genoa" were sister engines--one was modeled "as built" and the other "modernized" .   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER Hi Larry, Which one of the V&T 4-4-0's did you get? There were 3 of them that were offered by AHM, that is who imported Pocher back in the 60's and 70's, if your in need of a new pilot truck, there are junkers on ebay all the time, you might also contact Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains, he might be able to help you out there also, but if you can get your hands on a parts engine off of ebay or at a train show, any of the three AHM 4-4-0's can yield a pilot truck, in fact, I believe in the real world, the Reno was a rebuild of the original Genoa....... ....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: C. Larry Bowen <larrybowen4185@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:35:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] POCHER Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the lead-truck wheels on the Loco. The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. Thanks, Larry Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6248	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches

In the same box as the Laconia hopper I mentioned a few days back, I also got three die cast AC Gilbert round roof coaches, a mail car and two coaches. The coaches has been repainted, but the mail car was still lettered for the New Haven, which owned these cars in real life. It looks like these cars may have been lighted at one time, but nothing on the trucks suggests this??? Non metal wheels, for example, but there's an opening for light bracket in the center of the car deck. The windows have frosted 'glass' over them, further suggesting lights were at least an option. I'd like to maybe put Central Valley Trucks on these, I have a few pairs that should do. Or, if someone would know how to open these cars, I could install battery powered lights in each, and use that small 1/1" by 1/2" inch opening for a light toggle. Not sure how to open them up without damaging them. Any thoughts? I have a Gilbert 4-6-4 Hudson, that is Alternating Current, so would need a bridge rectifier. Not sure how I wire that in, and Radio Shack and google are little help. Anyone got an idea what kind of bidge rectifier I need? A whole Gilbert coach train would be a sight indeed! -Steve N.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6249	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches

Hi Steve N: Some important notes on those AC Gilbert American Flyer cars that you need to know about. 1. They are not plastic; they are bakelite. I have a couple of them too, in NH (green, white lettering). 2. They do not come apart, so don't try and open them up. With age, the bakelite has become brittle, and will break apart easily. If these are the same cars that I think they are, they are close to 50 years old now. (It might be possible to loosen the base from the carbody, but this may also prove risky to the bakelite sides, especially if you attempt to wiggle the plastic body -- which has no "give". Bakelite, unlike plastic, is pretty rigid stuff, doesn't bend, and has no flexibility, more so if its really old). 3. Originally, these were sold as toys, not models. Mine originally had lights in them, but they are all burned out now. I have not tried to replace the bulbs, nor have I attempted to repaint the cars. My RPO has a screw in the center, bottom of the frame, but all that you may be able to do is reinsert a new bulb, but not necessarily position it inside the car. 4. Clean up the original wheel sets in them, and they will run fine. The trucks that came with them are riveted onto the base of the cars, and will prove difficult or impossible to remove. They were designed to be "child proof" in those days (not intended to be taken apart). 5. Whatever you do, use great care. Best Wishes, Dave F ************** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6250	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches

Dave, Ah, I think you're thinking of the 'S' Scale coaches, which are bakelite. I am familiar with bakelite, as my old prewar 78 RPM records are made of it too. These coaches are definately die cast metal. I picked up one off the siding they were one, and just noticed something I never saw before- there are two screws, about 5/8" apart at either end of the car holding the frame to the body. I couldn't see them at first because the old Mantua 'loop' coupler pocket assembly was mostly obscuring them. So I have to remove the couplers to get these apart. The trucks are screwed on, on all three cars. Heavy coaches, they track well, and I was rolling the RPO car over some newly repaired track to 'test' the repair job. I had a section of line that went bad in a way that heavy cars, and cars with finer flanges would derail. Had to replace about twenty linear inches of track in the end. My Varney stuff and some coaches with CV trucks, never had problems though... -Steve --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote: > > Hi Steve N: > > Some important notes on those AC Gilbert American Flyer cars that > you need to know about. > > 1. They are not plastic; they are bakelite. I have a couple of them too, in > NH > (green, white lettering). > > 2. They do not come apart, so don't try and open them up. With age, > the bakelite has become brittle, and will break apart easily. If these are > the same cars that I think they are, they are close to 50 years old now. > (It might be possible to loosen the base from the carbody, but this may > also prove risky to the bakelite sides, especially if you attempt to wiggle > the plastic body -- which has no "give". Bakelite, unlike plastic, is pretty > rigid stuff, doesn't bend, and has no flexibility, more so if its really > old). > > 3. Originally, these were sold as toys, not models. Mine originally had > lights in them, but they are all burned out now. I have not tried to replace > the bulbs, nor have I attempted to repaint the cars. My RPO has a screw > in the center, bottom of the frame, but all that you may be able to do > is reinsert a new bulb, but not necessarily position it inside the car. > > 4. Clean up the original wheel sets in them, and they will run fine. The > trucks that came with them are riveted onto the base of the cars, and will > prove difficult or impossible to remove. They were designed to be "child > proof" > in those days (not intended to be taken apart). > > 5. Whatever you do, use great care. > > Best Wishes, > > Dave F > > > > ************** > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family > favorites at AOL Food. > > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6251	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches

HI Steve: No, mine are HO -- that's all I have here. The HO cars came in NH green and B&M maroon (dark red). In any event, sounds like we have different cars. Stay well, Dave F ************** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6252	From: Steven Winter	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2

Didn't they sell for like $49 or something like that???   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2 Steve Yeah, the reason I know is I drooled and drooled aver the thing but never bought one, really wished I had the money for one but still do not have money for an old one. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Didn't AHM/Rivarossi make a cab forward in the late '60's early '70's?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo...com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6253	From: Al Campbell	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Mogul Ends

Hello: Could someone direct me to a picture of a boxcar with Mogul Ends. I've heard the term but have no idea what they look like. According to an early ORER that I have, the B&M had boxcars with these ends. Thank you, Al Campbell

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6254	From: Dale Smith	Date: 5/4/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches

I checked the only resource I know of on Gilbert HO (Gary Klein's book) and these are probably 121 and 122's from 1940-41 if the couplers are truck mounted. If they are frame mounted, they are probably 215, 208's from 1938-39. None of these cars had the number on the product. The 38-39 cars were illuminated but the 40-41 cars were not. I would not put it past Gilbert to use a frame with a hole for lighting also on non-illuminated cars, but if they were illuminated, they should have brass wheels on alternating sides of the trucks. Even if your couplers are now frame mounted, you can probably see if they were originally truck mounted. I have never seen these close up enough to figure out how to remove the frame, but maybe you could add lighting by constructing an assembly that would insert into the hole. By the way, I understand that die castings of this era can also be fragile due to metal rot. Dale Smith railwaymodeler wrote: > > In the same box as the Laconia hopper I mentioned a few days back, I > also got three die cast AC Gilbert round roof coaches, a mail car and > two coaches. The coaches has been repainted, but the mail car was > still lettered for the New Haven, which owned these cars in real life. > > It looks like these cars may have been lighted at one time, but > nothing on the trucks suggests this??? Non metal wheels, for example, > but there's an opening for light bracket in the center of the car > deck. The windows have frosted 'glass' over them, further suggesting > lights were at least an option. > > I'd like to maybe put Central Valley Trucks on these, I have a few > pairs that should do. > > Or, if someone would know how to open these cars, I could install > battery powered lights in each, and use that small 1/1" by 1/2" inch > opening for a light toggle. Not sure how to open them up without > damaging them. Any thoughts? > > I have a Gilbert 4-6-4 Hudson, that is Alternating Current, so would > need a bridge rectifier. Not sure how I wire that in, and Radio Shack > and google are little help. Anyone got an idea what kind of bidge > rectifier I need? A whole Gilbert coach train would be a sight indeed! > > -Steve N. > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6255	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches

Use a bridge from Radio Shack--at least 2 amps rated . Westcott's "How to Wire your Model Railroad" has the circuit--but basically you are trying to keep the field polarity constant while reversing the brushes. Used to be common in O Scale. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Smith" <dfsmith26@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Gilbert Die Cast Coaches >I checked the only resource I know of on Gilbert HO (Gary Klein's book) > and these are probably 121 and 122's from 1940-41 if the couplers are > truck mounted. If they are frame mounted, they are probably 215, 208's > from 1938-39. None of these cars had the number on the product. The > 38-39 cars were illuminated but the 40-41 cars were not. I would not > put it past Gilbert to use a frame with a hole for lighting also on > non-illuminated cars, but if they were illuminated, they should have > brass wheels on alternating sides of the trucks. Even if your couplers > are now frame mounted, you can probably see if they were originally > truck mounted. I have never seen these close up enough to figure out > how to remove the frame, but maybe you could add lighting by > constructing an assembly that would insert into the hole. By the way, I > understand that die castings of this era can also be fragile due to > metal rot. > > Dale Smith > > railwaymodeler wrote: >> >> In the same box as the Laconia hopper I mentioned a few days back, I >> also got three die cast AC Gilbert round roof coaches, a mail car and >> two coaches. The coaches has been repainted, but the mail car was >> still lettered for the New Haven, which owned these cars in real life. >> >> It looks like these cars may have been lighted at one time, but >> nothing on the trucks suggests this??? Non metal wheels, for example, >> but there's an opening for light bracket in the center of the car >> deck. The windows have frosted 'glass' over them, further suggesting >> lights were at least an option. >> >> I'd like to maybe put Central Valley Trucks on these, I have a few >> pairs that should do. >> >> Or, if someone would know how to open these cars, I could install >> battery powered lights in each, and use that small 1/1" by 1/2" inch >> opening for a light toggle. Not sure how to open them up without >> damaging them. Any thoughts? >> >> I have a Gilbert 4-6-4 Hudson, that is Alternating Current, so would >> need a bridge rectifier. Not sure how I wire that in, and Radio Shack >> and google are little help. Anyone got an idea what kind of bidge >> rectifier I need? A whole Gilbert coach train would be a sight indeed! >> >> -Steve N. >> >> > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6256	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

Hi Glenn, you may be right, I do have all three on my simulator, (yep, we had a group that was doing the entire V&T, virtual of course, unfortunately, the guy who was doing the route lost his hard drive), naturally of course, the V&T also had other engines during that era as well..........:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2008 7:42:37 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER I just looked in Ferrell"s book--Reno and Genoa were 1872-73, Inyo 1875. main dimension are the same.  Point to make though is--at any given point in their history, they would have a similar appearance.. it may be that only one lasted to "full modernization" .  but for a layout set in say 1885, the three would be similar in appearance.  gj   ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER Hi Glenn, Out of the Reno, the Genoa and the Inyo, one of them was a modernization into another I believe..... ...:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2008 2:38:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER As I recall, "Reno" and "Genoa" were sister engines--one was modeled "as built" and the other "modernized" .   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] POCHER Hi Larry, Which one of the V&T 4-4-0's did you get? There were 3 of them that were offered by AHM, that is who imported Pocher back in the 60's and 70's, if your in need of a new pilot truck, there are junkers on ebay all the time, you might also contact Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains, he might be able to help you out there also, but if you can get your hands on a parts engine off of ebay or at a train show, any of the three AHM 4-4-0's can yield a pilot truck, in fact, I believe in the real world, the Reno was a rebuild of the original Genoa....... ....:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: C. Larry Bowen <larrybowen4185@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:35:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] POCHER Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the lead-truck wheels on the Loco. The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. Thanks, Larry Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6257	From: bayerw@comcast.net	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches

Steve N., Take a look at the catalogs on this website: http://myflyertrains.org/. I believe that the pre-war RPO and coaches were diecast, and available in kits or built-up. After WWII, the RPO and coaches were plastic. In HO, the only color offered was green, lettered New Haven. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6258	From: Joe Mitchell	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > may have been lighted at one time, but > nothing on the trucks suggests this??? Non metal wheels... light bracket in the center of the car... > lights were at least an option. > Any thoughts? > > -Steve N. > =O= + The hole should take the same bulb fixture as the 'S' cars. The lighted cars have one truck insulated from the frame. A wire goes from the truck rivet through the small hole to the fixture. I have seen reproduction fixtures and sometimes you can find used at shows. Joe M.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6259	From: raymarinaccio	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: POCHER

Hi Larry, I think I have an extra pilot truck (which is connected to the bottom frame). Check your loco over and see if there are other parts you need and let me know. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "C. Larry Bowen" <larrybowen4185@...> wrote: > > Any of you folks ever hear of Pocher Made in Italy? > A friend just gave me a very nicely detailed old 4-4-0 and a set of > 3 45ft old time coaches; Overtons, I believe. They all appear to be > low-end type pieces and the only piece I can find missing is one of the > lead-truck wheels on the Loco. > The road name on the set is Virginia and Truckee. > Thanks, > Larry >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6260	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/5/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2

Cheapest I ever saw them advertised for in the magazines were like 69.99 and that was by onw of the people in the magazines which everyone said would rip you off, still at the time too much for my budget (Yuc Yuc) then wold buy a lot of Athearn and other cool kits, Never could find a Kraus-Maffia either,(just never could locate one for my NYC layout). Charlie  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2 Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 19:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Didn't they sell for like $49 or something like that???   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 #2 Steve Yeah, the reason I know is I drooled and drooled aver the thing but never bought one, really wished I had the money for one but still do not have money for an old one. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Didn't AHM/Rivarossi make a cab forward in the late '60's early '70's?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 2-6-6-2 >I understand that Rivarossi sold a 2-6-6-2 early on. > > I am looking for mechanism for a SP Cab Forward. > > What was the Rivarossi model called and what size drivers did it have. > > > Thanks > > Charlie Can't help you with driver size, but it was a N&W Y6b. and it was a 2-8-8-2. At one time I had a sheet from AHM that showed all the parts breakdown for at least the first three runs but don't ask me to try and find it :-( Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo...com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- See Exclusive Video: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6261	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 5/6/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert Die Cast Coaches

The prewar Gilbert HO coaches were modeled after the very handsome and distinctive Osgood-Bradley lightweight coaches built most notably for the NH, B&M, and Bangor & Aroostook in the late thirties. These prototypes (also sold to Seaboard Air Line, Cotton Belt and LV) have in real life been popularly identified as "American Flyer Cars" ever since. The AF models were die cast in high quality metal (no zincpest) and painted in baked enamel (very hard to remove for repainting). Their weight was prodigious (0.855 lbs.!), limiting pretty severely the number of cars on any given train! The length was considerably shortened, and they were over-wide to accommodate the swinging trucks between the side skirts allowing the cars to go around the right angle curves of the time. The trucks rolled like stone sleds in deep sand. Since the Gilbert production, these "American Flyer" cars have been seldom modeled. E&B had kits for many years. There have been some brass models. Jason Schron's Rapido trains in Canada has announced a new production of these cars later this year. His high quality work and reasonable prices promise to make this a popular item. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6262	From: Don Grant	Date: 5/9/2008
Subject: Dummy

Sorry...Just hit the wrong button and sent "Dummy" to my entire address list. Don Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6263	From: sswcharlie	Date: 5/11/2008
Subject: Rivarossi HO

Did, in last century, Rivarossi have a Cab Forward 2-6-6-2 ? Thks Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6264	From: sswcharlie	Date: 5/11/2008
Subject: Rivarossi 2-6-6-2

Hi Apologies for my earlier post today we have already done that. I will have to join 'aged concern' thks Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6265	From: lvtrainmeet	Date: 5/13/2008
Subject: Good Train meet This weekend Allentown Pa off I-78

Just want to let everyone know the is a Good Train meet this weekend in Allentown Pa off I-78 Merchants Sqaure Mall The Great Lehigh Valley Train meet 1901 S 12th st Allentown Pa 18103 May 17th and 18th Info www.lehighvalleytrainmeet.com Hope to see you there Kevin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6266	From: Gerry	Date: 5/15/2008
Subject: Not exactly related, but.....

Hello All, Last week we were in the Lancaster area of Pennsylvania. Of course we took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg Railroad. In reality, it was the better half that wanted to do it again. We rode in the open observation car! In case anyone would like a look. I posted the pictures related to that experience online at: http://kitbash.ourpage.com/may2008 There are a few images of some turntable bridges on the lead to the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum also. And two flash videos. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6267	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....

I have a RR-interested friend who is itching for a small road trip(as if I am not - stir crazy after winter's ravages).   Could i get some idea of the cost at Strasbourg?   T I A Fred Hultberg Gerry <gerard_sr@...> wrote: Hello All, Last week we were in the Lancaster area of Pennsylvania. Of course we took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg Railroad. In reality, it was the better half that wanted to do it again. We rode in the open observation car! In case anyone would like a look. I posted the pictures related to that experience online at: http://kitbash.ourpage.com/may2008 There are a few images of some turntable bridges on the lead to the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum also. And two flash videos. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6268	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....

Take a look at <http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/> I can attest to the enjoyment of the ride, the exposure to the other equipment all around the place, and the value of the PA RR museum across the street. <http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/> And the Strasburg train shop is interesting too <http://www.etrainshop.com/>, and there is the toy train museum just down the road <http://www.nttmuseum.org/>, and if you are really serious about your trains, stay at the Red Caboose Motel <http://www.redcaboosemotel.com/> Mike Fred Hultberg wrote: > > > I have a RR-interested friend who is itching for a small road trip(as if > I am not - stir crazy after winter's ravages). > > Could i get some idea of the cost at Strasbourg? > > T I A > > Fred Hultberg > > */Gerry <gerard_sr@...>/* wrote: > > Hello All, > Last week we were in the Lancaster area of Pennsylvania. Of course we > took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg Railroad. In reality, > it was the better half that wanted to do it again. > We rode in the open observation car! > > In case anyone would like a look. > I posted the pictures related to that experience online at: > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/may2008 > > There are a few images of some turntable bridges on the lead to the > Pennsylvania Railroad Museum also. > > And two flash videos. > > Cordially, > Gerry > http://kitbash.ourpage.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1446 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 7:42 AM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6269	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....

Thanks! Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote: Take a look at I can attest to the enjoyment of the ride, the exposure to the other equipment all around the place, and the value of the PA RR museum across the street. And the Strasburg train shop is interesting too , and there is the toy train museum just down the road , and if you are really serious about your trains, stay at the Red Caboose Motel Mike Fred Hultberg wrote: > > > I have a RR-interested friend who is itching for a small road trip(as if > I am not - stir crazy after winter's ravages). > > Could i get some idea of the cost at Strasbourg? > > T I A > > Fred Hultberg > > */Gerry /* wrote: > > Hello All, > Last week we were in the Lancaster area of Pennsylvania. Of course we > took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg Railroad. In reality, > it was the better half that wanted to do it again. > We rode in the open observation car! > > In case anyone would like a look. > I posted the pictures related to that experience online at: > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/may2008 > > There are a few images of some turntable bridges on the lead to the > Pennsylvania Railroad Museum also. > > And two flash videos. > > Cordially, > Gerry > http://kitbash.ourpage.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1446 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 7:42 AM ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6270	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....

I haven't been to Strasburg in a few years and don't know current costs.  But I have been there more than a few times.  I strongly recommend it for both railroad fans, and also for those that, due to lapses in their upbringing or other deficiences, are not railroad fans.   However, for the price of one trip and one lodging, you get to see...   - The Strasburg Railroad    http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/   - The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania across the street from it    http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/   - The Choo Choo barn (very large O gauge railroad with much animation    http://www.choochoobarn.com/   - National Toy Train Museum (in the Train Collectors Association building).    http://www.nttmuseum.org/   Plenty of places to eat.  I don't remember one in particular we liked, and there is probably more than one that offers "family dining".  You sit at a large table with strangers who you meet and then enjoy.  The restaurant keeps bringing you platters and dishes of food to pass around.  Large platters.  Large dishes.    Plus there are many other things in the area, which is an Amish area.  By the way, be sure to adjust your driving conciousness to account for slow horse drawn vehicles.   Here's a general link to Strasburg are tourist information  http://www.strasburgpa.com/   In nearby Kinzers, Pennsylvania (10 or so miles east - yes, named after a relative, and used to be called just "Kinzer, PA") is the center of the universe for fans of traction steam engines.  They have various events, but I think their big one already happened for this year.  The following link tells about the place:  http://www.roughandtumble.org/   Of course, while in Pennsylvania, one can (must?) also visit the East Broad Top railroad (roughly 80-100 miles westerly) which is very much worth the visit.  http://www.ebtrr.com/  Next door to the East Broad Top is the Rockhill Trolley Museum  http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/   Disclaimer, I'm not associated with any of these places, or any tourist bureau or chamber of commerce in Pennsylvania.  But maybe I should be!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hultberg To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Not exactly related, but..... I have a RR-interested friend who is itching for a small road trip(as if I am not - stir crazy after winter's ravages).   Could i get some idea of the cost at Strasbourg?   T I A Fred Hultberg Gerry <gerard_sr@yahoo. com> wrote: Hello All, Last week we were in the Lancaster area of Pennsylvania. Of course we took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg Railroad. In reality, it was the better half that wanted to do it again. We rode in the open observation car! In case anyone would like a look. I posted the pictures related to that experience online at: http://kitbash. ourpage.com/ may2008 There are a few images of some turntable bridges on the lead to the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum also. And two flash videos. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash. ourpage.com ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO- digest@yahoogrou ps.com mailto:vintageHO- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6271	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....

Thanks, Chuck!   I have been to the "rough and tumble" and it's great, too!   Fred ckinzer@... wrote: I haven't been to Strasburg in a few years and don't know current costs.  But I have been there more than a few times.  I strongly recommend it for both railroad fans, and also for those that, due to lapses in their upbringing or other deficiences, are not railroad fans.   However, for the price of one trip and one lodging, you get to see...   - The Strasburg Railroad    http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/   - The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania across the street from it    http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/   - The Choo Choo barn (very large O gauge railroad with much animation    http://www.choochoobarn.com/   - National Toy Train Museum (in the Train Collectors Association building).    http://www.nttmuseum.org/   Plenty of places to eat.  I don't remember one in particular we liked, and there is probably more than one that offers "family dining".  You sit at a large table with strangers who you meet and then enjoy.  The restaurant keeps bringing you platters and dishes of food to pass around.  Large platters.  Large dishes.    Plus there are many other things in the area, which is an Amish area.  By the way, be sure to adjust your driving conciousness to account for slow horse drawn vehicles.   Here's a general link to Strasburg are tourist information  http://www.strasburgpa.com/   In nearby Kinzers, Pennsylvania (10 or so miles east - yes, named after a relative, and used to be called just "Kinzer, PA") is the center of the universe for fans of traction steam engines.  They have various events, but I think their big one already happened for this year.  The following link tells about the place:  http://www.roughandtumble.org/   Of course, while in Pennsylvania, one can (must?) also visit the East Broad Top railroad (roughly 80-100 miles westerly) which is very much worth the visit.  http://www.ebtrr.com/  Next door to the East Broad Top is the Rockhill Trolley Museum  http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/   Disclaimer, I'm not associated with any of these places, or any tourist bureau or chamber of commerce in Pennsylvania.  But maybe I should be!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hultberg To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Not exactly related, but..... I have a RR-interested friend who is itching for a small road trip(as if I am not - stir crazy after winter's ravages).   Could i get some idea of the cost at Strasbourg?   T I A Fred Hultberg Gerry <gerard_sr@yahoo. com> wrote: Hello All, Last week we were in the Lancaster area of Pennsylvania. Of course we took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg Railroad. In reality, it was the better half that wanted to do it again. We rode in the open observation car! In case anyone would like a look. I posted the pictures related to that experience online at: http://kitbash. ourpage.com/ may2008 There are a few images of some turntable bridges on the lead to the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum also. And two flash videos. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash. ourpage.com ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO- digest@yahoogrou ps.com mailto:vintageHO- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6272	From: Gerry D	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....

Glad you guys enjoyed the pix. Anyone have a problem with the video clips? We go down that way about every year. The wife likes to try different B&Bs. This year we stayed at Speedwell Forge B&B http://www.speedwellforge.com A little bit expensive, but it was what the wife wanted. There are ton's of places to stay and eat as someone mentioned. The food is all good! We rode that train maybe four times now and Steamtown's only once. The funny part is we live three miles from Steamtown! http://www.nps.gov/stea/ LOL! There are a few pictures there of the Red Caboose Motel in that batch. Maybe next time I'll talk her into staying there! Cordially, Gerry --- Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote: > Thanks, Chuck! > > I have been to the "rough and tumble" and it's > great, too! > > Fred > > ckinzer@... wrote: > I haven't been to Strasburg in a few years and > don't know current costs. But I have been there > more than a few times. I strongly recommend it for > both railroad fans, and also for those that, due to > lapses in their upbringing or other deficiences, are > not railroad fans. > > However, for the price of one trip and one > lodging, you get to see... > > - The Strasburg Railroad > http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/ > > - The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania across the > street from it > http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/ > > - The Choo Choo barn (very large O gauge railroad > with much animation > http://www.choochoobarn.com/ > > - National Toy Train Museum (in the Train > Collectors Association building). > http://www.nttmuseum.org/ > > Plenty of places to eat. I don't remember one in > particular we liked, and there is probably more than > one that offers "family dining". You sit at a large > table with strangers who you meet and then enjoy. > The restaurant keeps bringing you platters and > dishes of food to pass around. Large platters. > Large dishes. > > Plus there are many other things in the area, > which is an Amish area. By the way, be sure to > adjust your driving conciousness to account for slow > horse drawn vehicles. > > Here's a general link to Strasburg are tourist > information http://www.strasburgpa.com/ > > In nearby Kinzers, Pennsylvania (10 or so miles > east - yes, named after a relative, and used to be > called just "Kinzer, PA") is the center of the > universe for fans of traction steam engines. They > have various events, but I think their big one > already happened for this year. The following link > tells about the place: > http://www.roughandtumble.org/ > > Of course, while in Pennsylvania, one can (must?) > also visit the East Broad Top railroad (roughly > 80-100 miles westerly) which is very much worth the > visit. http://www.ebtrr.com/ Next door to the East > Broad Top is the Rockhill Trolley Museum > http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/ > > Disclaimer, I'm not associated with any of these > places, or any tourist bureau or chamber of commerce > in Pennsylvania. But maybe I should be! > > Chuck Kinzer > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Hultberg > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:07 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Not exactly related, > but..... > > > I have a RR-interested friend who is itching > for a small road trip(as if I am not - stir crazy > after winter's ravages). > > Could i get some idea of the cost at Strasbourg? > > T I A > > Fred Hultberg > > Gerry <gerard_sr@...> wrote: > Hello All, > Last week we were in the Lancaster area of > Pennsylvania. Of course we > took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg > Railroad. In reality, > it was the better half that wanted to do it again. > We rode in the open observation car! > > In case anyone would like a look. > I posted the pictures related to that experience > online at: > http://kitbash.ourpage.com/may2008 > > There are a few images of some turntable bridges on > the lead to the > Pennsylvania Railroad Museum also. > > And two flash videos. > > Cordially, > Gerry > http://kitbash.ourpage.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6273	From: cb0201	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Looking for contributors with good knowledge of vintage railway mode

Hi, We seek contributors for www.ToyCollector.com that would want to regularly or from to time contribute articles on vintage HO. Please let me know if you are interested. Best Christian

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6274	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....

I was there many years ago and the room costs near there were -very- steep. However! Just 30 minutes drive to the west is a good sized city with lots of average motels and much more comfortable room rates. I enjoyed staying there in a big-chain motel, catching breakfast before I left town, and then spending the day in the Strasbourg area just a few minutes away. Oh...... while visiting in Strasbourg........ Don't bother trying the Scrapple on the menu........ It's a very tasteless specialty......... blander tasting than most bland foods......... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On May 16, 2008, at 11:07 AM, Fred Hultberg wrote: I have a RR-interested friend who is itching for a small road trip(as if I am not - stir crazy after winter's ravages).   Could i get some idea of the cost at Strasbourg?   T I A Fred Hultberg Gerry <gerard_sr@...> wrote: Hello All, Last week we were in the Lancaster area of Pennsylvania. Of course we took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg Railroad. In reality, it was the better half that wanted to do it again....................

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6275	From: Rick Jones	Date: 5/16/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....

ckinzer@... wrote: > > Plenty of places to eat. I don't remember one in particular we liked, > and there is probably more than one that offers "family dining". You > sit at a large table with strangers who you meet and then enjoy. The > restaurant keeps bringing you platters and dishes of food to pass > around. Large platters. Large dishes. Sounds similar to chain in SoCal where I've eaten a few times called Big Yellow House. -- Rick Jones "Half this game is ninety percent mental." -Philadelphia Phillies manager, Danny Ozark

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6276	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 5/17/2008
Subject: Re: Not exactly related, but.....

Lancaster County PA has become a very busy tourist destination in the summer, so prices from Memorial Day through Labor Day are higher than the rest of the year. But the weather is usually reasonably warm in the spring and fall, so we usually go in September/October - less crowds and lower prices. And scrapple is definitely an acquired taste - you really don't want to know what goes into it. Stick with the standards for breakfast. Go to <http://www.padutchcountry.com/> to find out more about the area and take advantage of some special offers. For me, Lancaster County has two attractions, since I get most of my antique farm tractors from the area, as well as seeing the railroad stuff. They are also very big into "factory outlet" stores, although that kind of thing does nothing for me. Mike (S) Mike Bauers wrote: > > > I was there many years ago and the room costs near there were -very- steep. > > > However! > > Just 30 minutes drive to the west is a good sized city with lots of > average motels and much more comfortable room rates. I enjoyed staying > there in a big-chain motel, catching breakfast before I left town, and > then spending the day in the Strasbourg area just a few minutes away. > > Oh...... while visiting in Strasbourg........ Don't bother trying the > Scrapple on the menu........ It's a very tasteless specialty......... > blander tasting than most bland foods......... > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On May 16, 2008, at 11:07 AM, Fred Hultberg wrote: > >> I have a RR-interested friend who is itching for a small road trip(as >> if I am not - stir crazy after winter's ravages). >> >> Could i get some idea of the cost at Strasbourg? >> >> T I A >> >> Fred Hultberg >> >> */Gerry <gerard_sr@... <mailto:gerard_sr@...>>/* wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> Last week we were in the Lancaster area of Pennsylvania. Of course we >> took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg Railroad. In reality, >> it was the better half that wanted to do it again.................... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1446 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 7:42 AM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6277	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/17/2008
Subject: Chuck Re: [vintageHO] Not exactly related, but.....

Chuck You said a mouthful and I think they should put you on their payroll, you got the most info on the local subjects we love in a small area and with a lot of hook-ups to let us see whatg you were talking about. I enjoyed it verymuch. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Not exactly related, but..... Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 10:04:32 -0700 I haven't been to Strasburg in a few years and don't know current costs.  But I have been there more than a few times.  I strongly recommend it for both railroad fans, and also for those that, due to lapses in their upbringing or other deficiences, are not railroad fans.   However, for the price of one trip and one lodging, you get to see...   - The Strasburg Railroad    http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/   - The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania across the street from it    http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/   - The Choo Choo barn (very large O gauge railroad with much animation    http://www.choochoobarn.com/   - National Toy Train Museum (in the Train Collectors Association building).    http://www.nttmuseum.org/   Plenty of places to eat.  I don't remember one in particular we liked, and there is probably more than one that offers "family dining".  You sit at a large table with strangers who you meet and then enjoy.  The restaurant keeps bringing you platters and dishes of food to pass around.  Large platters.  Large dishes.    Plus there are many other things in the area, which is an Amish area.  By the way, be sure to adjust your driving conciousness to account for slow horse drawn vehicles.   Here's a general link to Strasburg are tourist information  http://www.strasburgpa.com/   In nearby Kinzers, Pennsylvania (10 or so miles east - yes, named after a relative, and used to be called just "Kinzer, PA") is the center of the universe for fans of traction steam engines.  They have various events, but I think their big one already happened for this year.  The following link tells about the place:  http://www.roughandtumble.org/   Of course, while in Pennsylvania, one can (must?) also visit the East Broad Top railroad (roughly 80-100 miles westerly) which is very much worth the visit.  http://www.ebtrr.com/  Next door to the East Broad Top is the Rockhill Trolley Museum  http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/   Disclaimer, I'm not associated with any of these places, or any tourist bureau or chamber of commerce in Pennsylvania.  But maybe I should be!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hultberg To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Not exactly related, but..... I have a RR-interested friend who is itching for a small road trip(as if I am not - stir crazy after winter's ravages).   Could i get some idea of the cost at Strasbourg?   T I A Fred Hultberg Gerry <gerard_sr@yahoo. com> wrote: Hello All, Last week we were in the Lancaster area of Pennsylvania. Of course we took the opportunity again to ride the Strasburg Railroad. In reality, it was the better half that wanted to do it again. We rode in the open observation car! In case anyone would like a look. I posted the pictures related to that experience online at: http://kitbash. ourpage.com/ may2008 There are a few images of some turntable bridges on the lead to the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum also. And two flash videos. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash. ourpage.com ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO- digest@yahoogrou ps.com mailto:vintageHO- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/ -- See Exclusive Video: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6278	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 5/17/2008
Subject: A Few Pix

Hi All, I have uploaded a four new pix in the photos section in a folder titled, Gary's Old and sometimes New Trains, I finally got some scenery done on the layout, its looking a lot better in that corner of my little world.........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6279	From: Gerry D	Date: 5/20/2008
Subject: For what it's worth or a Hot Tip, you decide!

I just got a woodworking catalog and in it I found a set of bits, #61 to #80 at $5.99 with free shipping until June 24th, 2008! Here's the link to the company's website and item: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10701&filter=69946 They have a toll free number. Maybe people who want them could call and say they saw it in a friend's catalog and then you would get the free shipping! Good luck, I intend to order a few. Cordially, Gerry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6280	From: Graeme	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: AHM Tempo US diesel

I wonder if you could help? I'm not sure how old this loco is, or even what it is. Dark blue in colour, plastic, lettered Western Maryland in yellow, marked F DF-15, running number 82. Two four wheeled trucks, one powered, the other non powered. HO, two rail. Fitted with British Hornby/Peco style couplers, but they are doubtless non original. Marked Tempo underneath. Body detail is part of the plastic shell, so probably fairly low end? Any idea how old it may be? Any details of who Tempo are, or were? Thanks! -- Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6281	From: Morgan Smith	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: For what it's worth or a Hot Tip, you decide!

Gerry,  Thanks for taking the time to share this info.  It's appreciated.  MorganS ----- Original Message ---- From: Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> To: mdcroundhouse@yahoogroups.com; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 12:31:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] For what it's worth or a Hot Tip, you decide! I just got a woodworking catalog and in it I found a set of bits, #61 to #80 at $5.99 with free shipping until June 24th, 2008! Here's the link to the company's website and item: http://www.rockler. com/product. cfm?page= 10701&filter= 69946 They have a toll free number. Maybe people who want them could call and say they saw it in a friend's catalog and then you would get the free shipping! Good luck, I intend to order a few. Cordially, Gerry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6282	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

Tempo locos were distributed under the AHM name in the late 1960s and 1970s   What you discribed sounds like a BL-2.  Here's a link to some info. http://tycotrain.tripod.com/ahmhoscaletrainscollectorsresource/id16.html --- On Wed, 5/21/08, Graeme <groups@...> wrote: From: Graeme <groups@...> Subject: [vintageHO] AHM Tempo US diesel To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2008, 5:42 AM I wonder if you could help? I'm not sure how old this loco is, or even what it is. Dark blue in colour, plastic, lettered Western Maryland in yellow, marked F DF-15, running number 82. Two four wheeled trucks, one powered, the other non powered. HO, two rail. Fitted with British Hornby/Peco style couplers, but they are doubtless non original. Marked Tempo underneath. Body detail is part of the plastic shell, so probably fairly low end? Any idea how old it may be? Any details of who Tempo are, or were? Thanks! -- Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6283	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

Graeme wrote: > I wonder if you could help? I'm not sure how old this loco is, or even > what it is. Dark blue in colour, plastic, lettered Western Maryland in > yellow, marked F DF-15, running number 82. Two four wheeled trucks, one > powered, the other non powered. HO, two rail. Fitted with British > Hornby/Peco style couplers, but they are doubtless non original. Marked > Tempo underneath. > > Body detail is part of the plastic shell, so probably fairly low end? > > Any idea how old it may be? Any details of who Tempo are, or were? > > Thanks! > Hi Graeme, Tempo was a company in Yugoslvia, think todays Mehano is the same company. They did models under contract for Rivarossi , seems there was a disagreement later on when they produced corrugated passenger cars for Rivarossi, this cars were dropped from the product line after a short time and never showed up again. Some of the locos they sell today (GG1, C-Liner ) are the old Rivarossi bodies with new drives. Back to your loco - think Ray is right, seems to be an BL2. Most distinctive : the wrong Fairbank Morse style trucks , the BL2 used the trucks from the C-Liner which was already in production for some time . Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6284	From: Graeme	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

In message <48346792.3090204@...>, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> writes Ray and Gerold, Thank you both very much. Yes, the model in front of me is indeed a BL-2, successfully identified using the link Ray supplied. From there, I went to www.northeast.railfan.net, to see what the prototype looks like. My own US interest is tinplate 0 gauge, so I am familiar with the type of diesels produced by Marx and Lionel, but not much more! >Tempo was a company in Yugoslvia, think todays Mehano is the same >company. They did models under contract for Rivarossi , seems there was >a disagreement later on when they produced corrugated passenger cars for >Rivarossi, this cars were dropped from the product line after a short >time and never showed up again. Some of the locos they sell today (GG1, >C-Liner ) are the old Rivarossi bodies with new drives. Back to the AHM HO-Scale Trains Resource site, which tells me everything about the individual models, but little about AHM itself. However, one section I did see referred to Kitmaster kits, which were British kits, made by Kitmaster until 1962, when Airfix took over. I assume the AHM Kitmaster kits were British products, imported to the US, and sold by AHM? Are, or were, Kitmaster well known in the US? -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6285	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

> Back to the AHM HO-Scale Trains Resource site, which tells me everything > about the individual models, but little about AHM itself. However, one > section I did see referred to Kitmaster kits, which were British kits, > made by Kitmaster until 1962, when Airfix took over. > > I assume the AHM Kitmaster kits were British products, imported to the > US, and sold by AHM? Are, or were, Kitmaster well known in the US? > Graeme, AHM was a US company (I think in Philadelphia?) which arranged for production of Railroad models overseas and marketed them in the USA. They importet models made by Rivarossi, Liliput, Roco, Tempo, Egger, even Japanese brass and who knows what else... they are still around under the IHC label, but I think they only sell Mehano stuff now. Kitmaster was British... . Think Kitmaster products only had a niche existence outside GB. When they shut down, most molds were supposed to be lost, some were found some years ago and were reissued. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6286	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] AHM Tempo US diesel > >> Back to the AHM HO-Scale Trains Resource site, which tells me everything >> about the individual models, but little about AHM itself. However, one >> section I did see referred to Kitmaster kits, which were British kits, >> made by Kitmaster until 1962, when Airfix took over. >> >> I assume the AHM Kitmaster kits were British products, imported to the >> US, and sold by AHM? Are, or were, Kitmaster well known in the US? >> > Graeme, > > AHM was a US company (I think in Philadelphia?) which arranged for > production of Railroad models overseas and marketed them in the USA. > They importet models made by Rivarossi, Liliput, Roco, Tempo, Egger, > even Japanese brass and who knows what else... they are still around > under the IHC label, but I think they only sell Mehano stuff now. > > Kitmaster was British... . Think Kitmaster products only had a niche > existence outside GB. When they shut down, most molds were supposed to > be lost, some were found some years ago and were reissued. > > Gerold AHM (earlier Aristo Craft, now IHC) did import both Kitmaster and Airfix from the UK for US markets ca. the early 1960's. Rosebud Kitmaster did do two static plastic models of US prototype. As I recall, one was an NYC Hudson, the other "The General" 4-4-0. I am not sure if they were HO or OO in scale. I always wanted to get one of their models of the "Deltic" diesel. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6287	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

> I am not sure if they were HO or OO in scale. > > I always wanted to get one of their models of the "Deltic" diesel. > > Don > Don, the Deltic is one of the kits that were reissued ... bought a kit maybe two or three years ago , think name of the new company is Dapol. A websearch or a look at the English ebay site should find you one. I got a real Kitmaster Deltic from my father in the early sixties; I had no rest until I had motorized it by putting the body on a underframe of a Austrian 1010 electric --- which was her ultimate undoing. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6288	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

Don, Further down the right side of the site there is a link to the Kitmaster kit list.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   AHM (earlier Aristo Craft, now IHC) did import both Kitmaster and Airfix from the UK for US markets ca. the early 1960's. Rosebud Kitmaster did do two static plastic models of US prototype. As I recall, one was an NYC Hudson, the other "The General" 4-4-0. I am not sure if they were HO or OO in scale. I always wanted to get one of their models of the "Deltic" diesel. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6289	From: Don Grant	Date: 5/21/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

I don't think AHM and Aristo Craft were related.  AHM was by Bernie Paul.  The Polks had Aristo Craft. Best, Don --- On Wed, 5/21/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: AHM (earlier Aristo Craft, now IHC) did import both Kitmaster and Airfix from the UK for US markets ca. the early 1960's. Rosebud Kitmaster did do two static plastic models of US prototype. As I recall, one was an NYC Hudson, the other "The General" 4-4-0. I am not sure if they were HO or OO in scale. I always wanted to get one of their models of the "Deltic" diesel. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6290	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 5/22/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

Don Grant wrote: > > I don't think AHM and Aristo Craft were related. AHM was by Bernie > Paul. The Polks had Aristo Craft. > > Best, > > Don > The only common thing with Aristo and AHM is that they sometimes sold models from the same manufacturers, like the cast 4-6-0 Camelback ( from New One) and some plastic structures. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6291	From: Graeme	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

In message <002901c8bb92$bef02e50$6501a8c0@Don>, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> writes <Kitmaster> > >I always wanted to get one of their models of the "Deltic" diesel. Don - the Dapol Deltic kit is still widely available - have a look at eBay UK. Thanks to everyone for all the help regarding AHM and Tempo. -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6292	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: ID loco..please.

Would appreciate it if someone here recognizes an H0 diesel, perhaps a GP30 (I am not keen at IDing diesels) from 2 pix I have uploaded to the photo section. The album is Ray Hobin's Models http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse?b=49&m=t&o=5 and the two fotos are labeled "frame" and "loco". I can find no markings on either the mechanism assembly or the body. The Lucite rod for the loco light is attached to the underside of the roof with a break about midway..possibly where the bulb or bulb bracket once was. Local MRR novice asked me to get it running which it now does. He says he was told when he bought it that it was a Lionel. In some respects it looks like an Athearn. Anyone know who actually made H0 locos for Lionel? Thanks... Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6293	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.

Yes, that is a GP-30 I believe that chassis is made by Lionel. It seems to be very unlike other makes of the era. I think it is a early Hong Kong or China production. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On May 23, 2008, at 2:15 PM, Ray Hobin wrote: > Would appreciate it if someone here recognizes an H0 diesel, > perhaps a GP30 > (I am not keen at IDing diesels) from 2 pix I have uploaded to the > photo > section. The album is Ray Hobin's Models > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse?b=49&m=t&o=5 > > and the two fotos are labeled "frame" and "loco". > > I can find no markings on either the mechanism assembly or the body. > The Lucite rod for the loco light is attached to the underside of > the roof > with a break about midway..possibly where the bulb or bulb bracket > once > was. > > Local MRR novice asked me to get it running which it now does. He > says he > was told when he bought it that it was a Lionel. In some respects > it looks > like an Athearn. Anyone know who actually made H0 locos for Lionel? > > Thanks... > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6294	From: Steven Winter	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.

The coupler mounts look like Athearn but the electrical pickups don't.   I agree, it's a GP30   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID loco..please. Yes, that is a GP-30 I believe that chassis is made by Lionel. It seems to be very unlike  other makes of the era. I think it is a early Hong Kong or China  production. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On May 23, 2008, at 2:15 PM, Ray Hobin wrote: > Would appreciate it if someone here recognizes an H0 diesel,  > perhaps a GP30 > (I am not keen at IDing diesels) from 2 pix I have uploaded to the  > photo > section.  The album is Ray Hobin's Models > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse?b=49&m=t&o=5 > > and the two fotos are labeled "frame" and "loco". > > I can find no markings on either the mechanism assembly or the body. > The Lucite rod for the loco light is attached to the underside of  > the roof > with a break about midway..possibly where the bulb or bulb bracket  > once > was. > > Local MRR novice asked me to get it running which it now does.  He  > says he > was told when he bought it that it was a Lionel.  In some respects  > it looks > like an Athearn.  Anyone know who actually made H0 locos for Lionel? > > Thanks... > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo..com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6295	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: AHM Tempo US diesel

Gerold Eckl posted: >Don Grant wrote: >> >> I don't think AHM and Aristo Craft were related. AHM was by Bernie >> Paul. The Polks had Aristo Craft. >> >> Best, >> >> Don >> >The only common thing with Aristo and AHM is that they sometimes sold >models from the same manufacturers, like the cast 4-6-0 Camelback ( from >New One) and some plastic structures. I still have the original box my CNJ 4-6-0 camelback by "New One" came in. (Of course I dare not handle it as it surely will disintegrate into zamac dust). Anyway, the box has printed on it "Manufactured exclusively for the H.O. Train Co. Philadelphia, 40, Penna." To the right of that printing the letters GHC encircled appear plus the words "approved line". Was GHC and H.0 Train Co a subsidiary of AHM or Aristo? To my knowledge AHM always had a Philadelphia address. Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6296	From: Charles Windes	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.

Kinda reminds me of an Atlas GP35 but I did not know they painted them in theGreen, White and Gold of Southern Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] ID loco..please. > Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 15:15:50 -0400 > > > Would appreciate it if someone here recognizes an H0 diesel, perhaps a GP30 > (I am not keen at IDing diesels) from 2 pix I have uploaded to the photo > section. The album is Ray Hobin's Models > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse?b=49&m=t&o=5 > > and the two fotos are labeled "frame" and "loco". > > I can find no markings on either the mechanism assembly or the body. > The Lucite rod for the loco light is attached to the underside of the roof > with a break about midway..possibly where the bulb or bulb bracket once > was. > > Local MRR novice asked me to get it running which it now does. He says he > was told when he bought it that it was a Lionel. In some respects it looks > like an Athearn. Anyone know who actually made H0 locos for Lionel? > > Thanks... > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Video: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6297	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.

To me, it looks like it may be a Front Range GP30. They don't seem to come around as often as the GP9s, but they both share some features that are similar to Athearn GP units. Bev Bel also produced GP30 units a while back that were Bachmann shells on a slightly modified Athearn GP35 frame, but it does not look like one of those. The Lionel GP30s were made by Kader, and were essentially the same as the Bachmann units. Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6298	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.

Definitely a GP-30, but the drive raises more questions. Not Lionel--theirs had only one truck driven, with a "pancake" motor--like Bachmann also used. Which also rules out Bachmann. Probably not Athearn as they used metal contact strips rather than wire to feed the motor. Possibly LifeLike??early generation? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: [vintageHO] ID loco..please.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6299	From: Chris B	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.

I don't know much about Front Range, personally I'm all caught up in Hobbytowns, but I do use the HO seeker lit page all the time, and their Front Range GP30 pages would seem to match the engine in the photo. The links to those two graphics are below, along with the link to the HOSeeker lit page, and the home page. I use these reference documents from vintage mfgrs all the time to identify engines. http://hoseeker.net/frontrange/frontrangeemdgp30pg1.jpg http://hoseeker.net/frontrange/frontrangeemdgp30pg2.jpg http://www.hoseeker.net/lit.html below is the home page for the above links.... http://www.hoseeker.net/ HO Train Reference Site You will find within this site many items that may assist you in repairing, identifying and collecting HO Trains. Listed in the "Literature Section" are Assembly Diagrams with Part Numbers for many different HO train engines and rolling stock. This includes Athearn, Atlas, Bowser, Penn Line, Kato, Varney, Model Die Casting, Roundhouse, Mantua, Tyco, Globe, AHM, Rivarossi, Bachmann, Model Power, and many more. Additionally, Catalogs, Brochures and Product Sales Lists for these trains can be referenced here. In the "Gallery" you can view pictures of Athearn and Other HO Trains produced between 1948 and 1990. If you are interested in buying or trading HO trains go to the "Train Swap Area". Clicking on the "Seeking Button" gives you a detailed list of the Athearn Kits and other HO train parts that I am seeking. Go to the "Forum Section" to view all updates to the Webpages of HOseeker.net. Finally the, "Links Button" has shortcuts to various helpful and useful HO train related sites. Hope your visit to HOseeker.net is both enjoyable and helpful. --- On Fri, 5/23/08, MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote: From: MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID loco..please. To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 23, 2008, 7:14 PM To me, it looks like it may be a Front Range GP30. They don't seem to come around as often as the GP9s, but they both share some features that are similar to Athearn GP units. Bev Bel also produced GP30 units a while back that were Bachmann shells on a slightly modified Athearn GP35 frame, but it does not look like one of those. The Lionel GP30s were made by Kader, and were essentially the same as the Bachmann units. Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6300	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/23/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID loco..please. > Definitely a GP-30, but the drive raises more questions. Not > Lionel--theirs > had only one truck driven, with a "pancake" motor--like Bachmann also > used. > Which also rules out Bachmann. Probably not Athearn as they used metal > contact strips rather than wire to feed the motor. Possibly > LifeLike??early > generation? gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 12:15 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] ID loco..please. Lionel, Front Range and Bachmann are all the same shell from the same dies. (I have what Andy H. tells me is a Lionel, and a Front Range I bought when they frirst came out, they ARE identical). I put mine on Athearn GP-35 drives however. If that's a three pole motor, I'd bet even money that that's a Front Range chassis ca. 1985 or so. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6301	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 5/24/2008
Subject: Re: ID loco..please.

It looks like a remotor job -- possibly with A-Line parts -- I don't think anyone has brought in a GP-30 in Southern Colors with X2f couplers and a flat can motor with flywheels. Probably runs pretty well though. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Definitely a GP-30, but the drive raises more questions. Not Lionel--theirs > had only one truck driven, with a "pancake" motor--like Bachmann also used. > Which also rules out Bachmann. Probably not Athearn as they used metal > contact strips rather than wire to feed the motor. Possibly LifeLike??early > generation? gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 12:15 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] ID loco..please. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6302	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/25/2008
Subject: Parts needed

Had a phone call last night from a friend, looking for two crankpin screws for an HO Marx DIECAST 4-6-4. (probably dated early 40's). Anuone know exactly what size these would be or, if something proprietary, where to get a couple? Thanks Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6303	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 5/25/2008
Subject: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM

Attachments : Pictures of the latest eBay treasure a Pittman Bride and Groom set. Missing the pan and a really thick coat of paint plus the couplers will not hook together it appears some of the clips are broken off.  The unit runs quite nicely.  Looks like Hobbyline bodies were used though I wonder how they got the round end windows in?       Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6304	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM

I've got a couple spare pairs of Varney cardstock combine sides, you've just given me an idea.........   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: VINTAGE H-0 Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 8:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM Pictures of the latest eBay treasure a Pittman Bride and Groom set. Missing the pan and a really thick coat of paint plus the couplers will not hook together it appears some of the clips are broken off.  The unit runs quite nicely.  Looks like Hobbyline bodies were used though I wonder how they got the round end windows in?       Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6305	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM

Roger, Great purchase, is the spacing on those insulators for the pan the same as a Penn Line GG1? Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Roger Aultman Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:49 PM To: VINTAGE H-0 Subject: [vintageHO] PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM   Pictures of the latest eBay treasure a Pittman Bride and Groom set. Missing the pan and a really thick coat of paint plus the couplers will not hook together it appears some of the clips are broken off.  The unit runs quite nicely.  Looks like Hobbyline bodies were used though I wonder how they got the round end windows in?       Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6306	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM

Sounds like some interurbans coming to the MILWAUKEE NORTHERN RR.   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM I've got a couple spare pairs of Varney cardstock combine sides, you've just given me an idea........ .   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: VINTAGE H-0 Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 8:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM Pictures of the latest eBay treasure a Pittman Bride and Groom set. Missing the pan and a really thick coat of paint plus the couplers will not hook together it appears some of the clips are broken off.  The unit runs quite nicely.  Looks like Hobbyline bodies were used though I wonder how they got the round end windows in?       Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6307	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM

Hello Chuck   Measuring over the insulators and subtracting one diameter gives a sort of shaky 718" x .766".  I think anything close to that could be made to work.   Roger Aultman     ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM Roger, Great purchase, is the spacing on those insulators for the pan the same as a Penn Line GG1? Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Roger Aultman Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:49 PM To: VINTAGE H-0 Subject: [vintageHO] PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM Pictures of the latest eBay treasure a Pittman Bride and Groom set. Missing the pan and a really thick coat of paint plus the couplers will not hook together it appears some of the clips are broken off.  The unit runs quite nicely.  Looks like Hobbyline bodies were used though I wonder how they got the round end windows in?       Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6308	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/26/2008
Subject: Re: PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM

Roger, If the .718 is side to side and the .766 is front to back, then that is it.  Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Roger Aultman Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:42 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM   Hello Chuck   Measuring over the insulators and subtracting one diameter gives a sort of shaky 718" x .766".  I think anything close to that could be made to work.   Roger Aultman     ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM   Roger, Great purchase, is the spacing on those insulators for the pan the same as a Penn Line GG1? Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Roger Aultman Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:49 PM To: VINTAGE H-0 Subject: [vintageHO] PITTMAN BRIDE AND GROOM Pictures of the latest eBay treasure a Pittman Bride and Groom set. Missing the pan and a really thick coat of paint plus the couplers will not hook together it appears some of the clips are broken off.  The unit runs quite nicely.  Looks like Hobbyline bodies were used though I wonder how they got the round end windows in?       Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6309	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Athearn Metal Timken Red Boxcar Decals

Dear Vintage HO Group: I recently added a Timken red special boxcar to my Athearn metal freight car collection (#37250). It's packaged in the less-common glossy red box, which I was aware of, and it contains decals, which I was not aware of. The decals are a pair of red Timken logos with the wording "Timken Bearing Equipped." A small separate instruction sheet is included in the kit, along with the standard instruction sheet, containing a painting guide as well as a diagram for the placement of the decals on the car ends. The only other decals I've ever encountered with Athearn metal cars are the two white door stripes Menzies included with the Timken yellow special boxcar. My questions to the group are as follows: (1) did Athearn discontinue including the decals after early production (my car is first generation with a brass roofwalk including integral supports), or are the decals simply missing from my other examples of Timken red cars? (2) Were decals included with the silver and yellow Timken cars as well as with the red? (3) I've heard that the silver and yellow cars were also sometimes packaged in glossy silver and yellow boxes. I've never seen either of these boxes, so can anyone verify their existence? Best wishes, and thanks in advance for your input. Lou Greiff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6310	From: erieberk	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Timken Red Boxcar Decals

Hi Lou, Good to see you up here again. In addition to a number of glossy solid-red boxes for the Timken Red boxcars, I also have a number of the glossy solid-yellow boxes (for the Timken Yellow box cars and the glossy solid-silver boxes (for the Timken Silver box cars) -- although these silver boxes are not quite as "glossy" as the first two. All three do exist though, with having only the label on the end -- no other printing. None of my Timken box car kits have decals, so I can't answer your first two questions except to say that my later Timken kits are all factory pre-painted and lettered, although I have the same Timken Red #37250 (silk-screened), one of the more common numbers which I believe also went into Menzies production, as well as all the remaining car numbers in this catalog number (A-180). I also have 4 of the 7 Timken Yellow car numbers and 3 of the 6 Timken Silver car numbers, again all pre-painted and silk-screened. Not knowing how/if your other examples of Timken Red cars came pre- lettered or not, I cannot say whether any decals are simply missing from these examples or not, but since I'd have to assume that these examples are not lettered (otherwise you wouldn't question the possible existence of decals for them), I think its fair to say that if these cars were not lettered (which I've never seen) there must have been decals that came with them at some time. However, all examples of the various Timken cars I've ever seen were always factory painted and lettered. I recall seeing only one factory painted but unlettered Athearn metal car (besides the "Undecorated" kits) and that was an A-413 BAR Reefer, which I promptly scapped up when I saw it about 25 years ago, which I just assumed to be a factory defect. My notes simply say "Factory Un-numbered," and not having seen it in many years I don't know if it came lettered for the railroad and/or has a logo, but I do know it didn't come with decals. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Dear Vintage HO Group: > > I recently added a Timken red special boxcar to my Athearn metal freight > car collection (#37250). It's packaged in the less-common glossy red box, > which I was aware of, and it contains decals, which I was not aware of. The > decals are a pair of red Timken logos with the wording "Timken Bearing > Equipped." A small separate instruction sheet is included in the kit, along > with the standard instruction sheet, containing a painting guide as well as > a diagram for the placement of the decals on the car ends. The only other > decals I've ever encountered with Athearn metal cars are the two white door > stripes Menzies included with the Timken yellow special boxcar. > My questions to the group are as follows: (1) did Athearn discontinue > including the decals after early production (my car is first generation with > a brass roofwalk including integral supports), or are the decals simply > missing from my other examples of Timken red cars? (2) Were decals included > with the silver and yellow Timken cars as well as with the red? (3) I've > heard that the silver and yellow cars were also sometimes packaged in glossy > silver and yellow boxes. I've never seen either of these boxes, so can > anyone verify their existence? > Best wishes, and thanks in advance for your input. > > Lou Greiff >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6311	From: Bill Daley	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Class lights

Hi Group.   Many moons ago, MDC, among others, made small reflective jewels which a person could glue into cast brass class lights and mount same on steam engines to represent ILLUMINATED class lights..  I have resurrected some of the castings from the junk box. And jewels would be nice BUT...... I recall a few months ago some one proposed painting the concave spot in the casting and using a translucent glue over the paint to simulate UNLIGHTED lenses.   Question is what glue: ACC or epoxy? Maybe even Elmers?  I can't remember, so I'm asking anyone who has used this method for some guidance.   PS. "Don't even attempt" is a valid response   BillD

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6312	From: Glenn476	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Re: Class lights

Lots of possibilities.  Detail Associates has the jewels.  MV Products has nice lenses. Tamiya has  several "Transparent" colors in their Acrylic line--wander over to the "Plastic Models" section of the hobby shop--the aircraft and auto modelers use them for lenses.  I apply a drop with the point of a toothpick. You can paint the "socket" silver first., or for unlit, just the paint.    The classification lamps I have all have clear lenses.  There is a green shutter that drops into place behind the lenses when needed.  Normally either the white or no lamp was used.  Green indicates a following section of a scheduled train.gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Daley To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Class lights Hi Group.   Many moons ago, MDC, among others, made small reflective jewels which a person could glue into cast brass class lights and mount same on steam engines to represent ILLUMINATED class lights..  I have resurrected some of the castings from the junk box. And jewels would be nice BUT...... I recall a few months ago some one proposed painting the concave spot in the casting and using a translucent glue over the paint to simulate UNLIGHTED lenses.   Question is what glue: ACC or epoxy? Maybe even Elmers?  I can't remember, so I'm asking anyone who has used this method for some guidance.   PS. "Don't even attempt" is a valid response   BillD

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6313	From: Rick Jones	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Re: Class lights

Glenn476 wrote: > Lots of possibilities. Detail Associates has the jewels. MV Products > has nice lenses. Tamiya has several "Transparent" colors in their > Acrylic line--wander over to the "Plastic Models" section of the hobby > shop--the aircraft and auto modelers use them for lenses. I apply a > drop with the point of a toothpick. You can paint the "socket" silver > first., or for unlit, just the paint. And, of course, nowadays you can get versions that actually light. Look for the Adlake marker lights from Tomar. http://www.tomarindustries.com/acc.htm -- Rick Jones When dog food has "new and improved" taste, who tests it?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6314	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 5/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Timken Red Boxcar Decals

Hi Ray and Group,     I should have mentioned that my 32750 with decals is unpainted except for the painted and lettered car sides.  The decals included are a pair of Timken logos, each about 1/2” wide, meant to be applied to the car ends after painting.  I’m not surprised the car number is common because I have more than one 32750 including a Menzies reissue.  All my cars with this number are of the earlier wood and metal construction rather than the all-metal construction with wood floor.  Without looking for them, I’m reasonably sure that all my other 32750s are unpainted except for the sides.  In addition to the Timken herald decals, my red-boxed kit contains two bottles of paint, one red and another that probably once was white.  For anyone interested in Athearn metal minutia, the supplementary instruction sheet measures 2 1/2” by 5 1/2”.  Held vertically, there’s a crude drawing of a boxcar end near the top, with the word Decal above it and an arrow pointing from the word to the upper right hand corner of the car end where there’s an outline of the Timken logo.  Below the drawing, the sheet reads as follows: TRF-OR TRF-HOR Ends                    Red Roof                    Red Doors                  Red &                           White Trucks                 Black Underfr’m.          Black Hardware           To match   attaching          surface       Thanks, Ray, for verifying the existence of the silver and yellow boxes.  Now I’ll have to hunt them out for my collection.  Best wishes.                                                                                                                                             Lou On 5/29/08 3:07 PM, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:   Hi Lou,  Good to see you up here again.  In addition to a number of glossy solid-red boxes for the Timken Red boxcars, I also have a number of the glossy solid-yellow boxes (for the Timken Yellow box cars and the glossy solid-silver boxes (for the Timken Silver box cars) -- although these silver boxes are not quite as "glossy" as the first two.  All three do exist though, with having only the label on the end -- no other printing. None of my Timken box car kits have decals, so I can't answer your first two questions except to say that my later Timken kits are all factory pre-painted and lettered, although I have the same Timken Red #37250 (silk-screened), one of the more common numbers which I believe also went into Menzies production, as well as all the remaining car numbers in this catalog number (A-180).  I also have 4 of the 7 Timken Yellow car numbers and 3 of the 6 Timken Silver car numbers, again all pre-painted and silk-screened.   Not knowing how/if your other examples of Timken Red cars came pre- lettered or not, I cannot say whether any decals are simply missing from these examples or not, but since I'd have to assume that these examples are not lettered (otherwise you wouldn't question the possible existence of decals for them), I think its fair to say that if these cars were not lettered (which I've never seen) there must have been decals that came with them at some time.  However, all examples of the various Timken cars I've ever seen were always factory painted and lettered.   I recall seeing only one factory painted but unlettered Athearn metal car (besides the "Undecorated" kits) and that was an A-413 BAR Reefer, which I promptly scapped up when I saw it about 25 years ago, which I just assumed to be a factory defect.  My notes simply say "Factory Un-numbered," and not having seen it in many years I don't know if it came lettered for the railroad and/or has a logo, but I do know it didn't come with decals.  Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Dear Vintage HO Group: > >     I recently added a Timken red special boxcar to my Athearn metal freight > car collection (#37250).  It's packaged in the less-common glossy red box, > which I was aware of, and it contains decals, which I was not aware of.  The > decals are a pair of red Timken logos with the wording "Timken Bearing > Equipped."  A small separate instruction sheet is included in the kit, along > with the standard instruction sheet, containing a painting guide as well as > a diagram for the placement of the decals on the car ends.  The only other > decals I've ever encountered with Athearn metal cars are the two white door > stripes Menzies included with the Timken yellow special boxcar. >     My questions to the group are as follows: (1) did Athearn discontinue > including the decals after early production (my car is first generation with > a brass roofwalk including integral supports), or are the decals simply > missing from my other examples of Timken red cars?  (2) Were decals included > with the silver and yellow Timken cars as well as with the red?   (3)  I've > heard that the silver and yellow cars were also sometimes packaged in glossy > silver and yellow boxes.  I've never seen either of these boxes, so can > anyone verify their existence? >     Best wishes, and thanks in advance for your input. > >                                         Lou Greiff >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6315	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 5/30/2008
Subject: Re: Class lights

I fill the openings of class lights with CLEAR five minute epoxy. Use the tip of a toothpick and only use freshly mixed epoxy. Using a magnifier add additional epoxy until you have a nice convex lens. Once it has started to set even slightly, DON'T TOUCH IT. You will only screw it up. Bill DeFoe >-- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Bill Daley <retiredgrouch@...> wrote: > > Question is what glue: ACC or epoxy? Maybe even Elmers? I can't remember, so I'm asking anyone who has used this method for some guidance. > > > BillD >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6316	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 5/31/2008
Subject: Re: Class lights

Bill DeFoe stated: >I fill the openings of class lights with CLEAR five minute epoxy. Use >the tip of a toothpick and only use freshly mixed epoxy. Using a >magnifier add additional epoxy until you have a nice convex lens. The use of epoxy for lenses goes way back... Back in the late 60s I met Don Hillerich. You "old-timers may recognize his name or business name "Terry Industries" operating out of Arlington, VA. Don was the owner of Terry Industries which sold custom painted brass locos that you had to purchase from Don. Some of his work was featured in early PFM catalogs. Anyway, he told me that he made his own lenses - this was before MV lenses were available - for his locos from molds he made (never said how he made the molds or what material was used) and filled the with clear epoxy. Don's full-time job then was in the model department of the Smithsonian Institute in Wash. D.C. Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6317	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/3/2008
Subject: Re: [mdcroundhouse] proper name

----- Original Message ----- From: "d vendrasco" <dvendrasco@...> To: <mdcroundhouse@yahoogroups.com>; <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:48 PM Subject: [mdcroundhouse] proper name > Help! I am sending acouple of picture of a kit-bashed > project I did a couple of years ago, using a box cab > kit and an overton combine kit. I am about to refine > this a bit and I need the proper name for this unit. > It seems that it has a few names (according to my > group of friends) "doodlebug" "combine". Please could > someone give me the definitive name for this piece. > (pictures are found in photo files "kit-bashed > project". Thanks The actual proper name would be a "gas-electric car", but they were called lots of things by lots of people (some which can't be mentioned in mixed company <G>). "Doodlebug" is as good a name as any. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6318	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/5/2008
Subject: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

Hello All, I have just created an album, Walt's Ends, to which I uploaded some photos of some lightweight passenger car ends that accumulated in my parts box. I don't know who made them or what model they were originally meant for. If anyone knows, pipe up. I have 5 unbroken ends from which I removed the various flanges and the louvered air vents (I kept the vents!)making them quite flat on the back side. I need more of these ends. If anyone has any of these that he wants to get rid of, please let me know. Alternatively, if anyone is in the business of copying parts, perhaps the unbroken ones can be used as mold masters. Again, please let me know. Thanks, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6319	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/5/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

Without even seeing then they sound like Varney, for the 60' streamline shorties. The vents lock the end into the car body. Are they made in a black, somewhat flexible plastic? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Lightweight Passenger cars ends > Hello All, > > I have just created an album, Walt's Ends, to which I uploaded some > photos of some lightweight passenger car ends that accumulated in my > parts box. I don't know who made them or what model they were > originally meant for. If anyone knows, pipe up. > > I have 5 unbroken ends from which I removed the various flanges and > the louvered air vents (I kept the vents!)making them quite flat on > the back side. I need more of these ends. If anyone has any of these > that he wants to get rid of, please let me know. > > Alternatively, if anyone is in the business of copying parts, perhaps > the unbroken ones can be used as mold masters. Again, please let me know. > > Thanks, > Walter > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6320	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

Walt, I am not an expert on this subject by any means but they may be from the extruded aluminum Mantua cars. I had one of them many, many years ago. I had purchased it when they first came out sometime in the fifties and seem to remember the ends being a similiar color and using the vents to hold them on the shell. Glenn476 mentions Varney as another possibility and that may well be as my brother had a metal Varney B&O observation car. And that car had a end similar in color to yours. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: > > Hello All, > > I have just created an album, Walt's Ends, to which I uploaded some > photos of some lightweight passenger car ends that accumulated in my > parts box. I don't know who made them or what model they were > originally meant for. If anyone knows, pipe up. > > I have 5 unbroken ends from which I removed the various flanges and > the louvered air vents (I kept the vents!)making them quite flat on > the back side. I need more of these ends. If anyone has any of these > that he wants to get rid of, please let me know. > > Alternatively, if anyone is in the business of copying parts, perhaps > the unbroken ones can be used as mold masters. Again, please let me know. > > Thanks, > Walter >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6321	From: jbark76	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

I have a pair of the ends in question that you are welcome to. They are used and will need some cleaning up. I took the liberty of adding a picture to your album showing them and a Mantua (Tyco) passenger car end. I can say they are not Mantua and would lean toward Varney, although I don't have an example for comperison. Feel free to email me at jbark76@... and we can work out the details. On another note, Does anyone have doors for Globe boxcars? I got some sides for double door boxcars and can assemble them mostly from other old boxcars and stock cars, however I don't have enough doors to go around. I have some Athearn doors I could use if I have to. Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6322	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:10 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends > Walt, I am not an expert on this subject by any means but they may be > from the extruded aluminum Mantua cars. I had one of them many, many > years ago. I had purchased it when they first came out sometime in > the fifties and seem to remember the ends being a similiar color and > using the vents to hold them on the shell. > > Glenn476 mentions Varney as another possibility and that may well be > as my brother had a metal Varney B&O observation car. And that car > had a end similar in color to yours. > > John Hagen > Milwaukee, WI They're not Mantua, they didn't have that vent on the roof, and the simulated diaphragms extended out much deeper. Don don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6323	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

Not to mention the color being more silver than grey. jbark76's photo renewed my memory on the Mantua aluminum cars. So are they Varney's? Or? John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > They're not Mantua, they didn't have that vent on the roof, and the > simulated diaphragms extended out much deeper. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6324	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

Not to mention the color being more silver than grey. jbark76's photo renewed my memory on the Mantua aluminum cars. So are they Varney's? Or? John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > They're not Mantua, they didn't have that vent on the roof, and the > simulated diaphragms extended out much deeper. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6325	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

Never mind. Forgot about hoseeker.net. Varney part # 2144. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Not to mention the color being more silver than grey. jbark76's photo > renewed my memory on the Mantua aluminum cars. > > So are they Varney's? Or? > > John Hagen >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6326	From: Riverboy	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

Hello,   I'd say about 99% chance they are Varney as I eBayed some cars with identical ends about a month ago , and sent photos to the group with a member verifying them as Varney . Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:10 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends > Walt, I am not an expert on this subject by any means but they may be > from the extruded aluminum Mantua cars. I had one of them many, many > years ago. I had purchased it when they first came out sometime in > the fifties and seem to remember the ends being a similiar color and > using the vents to hold them on the shell. > > Glenn476 mentions Varney as another possibility and that may well be > as my brother had a metal Varney B&O observation car. And that car > had a end similar in color to yours. > > John Hagen > Milwaukee, WI They're not Mantua, they didn't have that vent on the roof, and the simulated diaphragms extended out much deeper. Don don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.geocitie s.com/don_ dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/MRPics http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SCENERY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6327	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/6/2008
Subject: Re: Lightweight Passenger cars ends

Thanks for the info, GJ and John. I am pretty sure they are not Mantua. I have several Mantua extruded shorties, and the ends are lke a polyethalene molding, and the style is definitely Budd. These ends are PS of ACF, and the plastic appears to be styrene. The color is light gray. I guess they could be Varney, but I no longer have any of the Varney sheet metal shortie kits to check against. Well, anyone have some they don't need and are willing to sell? Anyone think he could cast some for me (for pay, of course)? Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Walt, I am not an expert on this subject by any means but they may be > from the extruded aluminum Mantua cars. I had one of them many, many > years ago. I had purchased it when they first came out sometime in > the fifties and seem to remember the ends being a similiar color and > using the vents to hold them on the shell. > > Glenn476 mentions Varney as another possibility and that may well be > as my brother had a metal Varney B&O observation car. And that car > had a end similar in color to yours. > > John Hagen > Milwaukee, WI > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@> > wrote: > > > > Hello All, > > > > I have just created an album, Walt's Ends, to which I uploaded some > > photos of some lightweight passenger car ends that accumulated in my > > parts box. I don't know who made them or what model they were > > originally meant for. If anyone knows, pipe up. > > > > I have 5 unbroken ends from which I removed the various flanges and > > the louvered air vents (I kept the vents!)making them quite flat on > > the back side. I need more of these ends. If anyone has any of these > > that he wants to get rid of, please let me know. > > > > Alternatively, if anyone is in the business of copying parts, > perhaps > > the unbroken ones can be used as mold masters. Again, please let me > know. > > > > Thanks, > > Walter > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6328	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Question about some old streamline passeger cars

All the talk about the streamline passenger car ends led me to ask the group about the following. I have three old streamline passenger cars that I picked up on a lark on eBay. I am utterly ignorant about early HO passenger cars and I don't know if these are kits, scratchbuilt, or what but I thought I would ask the group. I have posted photos of them in the Photos section of the group under "Matt's Mystery Passenger Cars from the 50s?" The cars are made of an extruded shell, apparently plated (the plating is thin on two of them). They have wooden floors and representative wooden detail bits underneath, and run on die-cast EMD diesel trucks (dummy trucks of course.) The cars are nicely built, with interior details and have mechanical knuckle couplers with a drop-pin underneath. The ends are completely void of all detail except for a single square hole. All of this is shown in the photos. The word "Herkeimer" comes to mind but that is only because the ads for those kits were common in the 50s when I first started MR. If anyone has more info I would love to have it. Thanks!!! Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6329	From: Riverboy	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars

Hello,   Your guess on Herkimer is most likely correct , as they had both shorties and full length .   For the record, someone has recently started marketing the line again, and if I am not mistaken , you can have them customized with any window arrengement .   Tod mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: All the talk about the streamline passenger car ends led me to ask the group about the following. I have three old streamline passenger cars that I picked up on a lark on eBay. I am utterly ignorant about early HO passenger cars and I don't know if these are kits, scratchbuilt, or what but I thought I would ask the group. I have posted photos of them in the Photos section of the group under "Matt's Mystery Passenger Cars from the 50s?" The cars are made of an extruded shell, apparently plated (the plating is thin on two of them). They have wooden floors and representative wooden detail bits underneath, and run on die-cast EMD diesel trucks (dummy trucks of course.) The cars are nicely built, with interior details and have mechanical knuckle couplers with a drop-pin underneath. The ends are completely void of all detail except for a single square hole. All of this is shown in the photos. The word "Herkeimer" comes to mind but that is only because the ads for those kits were common in the 50s when I first started MR. If anyone has more info I would love to have it. Thanks!!! Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6330	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Another pass car question

H'lo all...an aside, triggered by the posts on o/t pass cars...in a box of auction wins recently I have a wooden/brass-sided h/w Pullman Club-Combine kit...full-length car in a flat box, ca 2"x1/2"x12" (no ruler handy...!)...labelled 'Motive Power Industries Inc. Post Office Box 465 Old Saybrook, CT 06475'.   I haven't yet found a reference or ad in the early RMC/MR mags, and a Google search gets me to a current motive power company...   Is this kit-maker familiar to anybody? And if so, would you have an approximate date of production?   Thanks in anticipation! Russ in Adelaide Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6331	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars

Close, very close.   The plain end with no detail and the wood floor tells me they're Kasiners.  Sometime in the mid 1950's Kasiner became Herkimer.  Every Herkimer I've seen has a cast end and a masonite floor, otherwise they're pretty similar.   Herkimer IS still around, they're in the 2008 Walthers book.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:37 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeger cars Hello,   Your guess on Herkimer is most likely correct , as they had both shorties and full length .   For the record, someone has recently started marketing the line again, and if I am not mistaken , you can have them customized with any window arrengement .   Tod mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: All the talk about the streamline passenger car ends led me to ask the group about the following. I have three old streamline passenger cars that I picked up on a lark on eBay. I am utterly ignorant about early HO passenger cars and I don't know if these are kits, scratchbuilt, or what but I thought I would ask the group. I have posted photos of them in the Photos section of the group under "Matt's Mystery Passenger Cars from the 50s?" The cars are made of an extruded shell, apparently plated (the plating is thin on two of them). They have wooden floors and representative wooden detail bits underneath, and run on die-cast EMD diesel trucks (dummy trucks of course.) The cars are nicely built, with interior details and have mechanical knuckle couplers with a drop-pin underneath. The ends are completely void of all detail except for a single square hole. All of this is shown in the photos. The word "Herkeimer" comes to mind but that is only because the ads for those kits were common in the 50s when I first started MR. If anyone has more info I would love to have it. Thanks!!! Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6332	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars

Oh, as a PS, the trucks are probably Varney.  In the late 1940's they offered them as "delux passenger trucks", it was they're standard F-3 diesel truck with 36" wheels.   Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 6:54 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeger cars Close, very close.   The plain end with no detail and the wood floor tells me they're Kasiners.  Sometime in the mid 1950's Kasiner became Herkimer.  Every Herkimer I've seen has a cast end and a masonite floor, otherwise they're pretty similar.   Herkimer IS still around, they're in the 2008 Walthers book.   Don   don.dellmann@... http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann Owner-Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO Co-owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:37 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeger cars Hello,   Your guess on Herkimer is most likely correct , as they had both shorties and full length .   For the record, someone has recently started marketing the line again, and if I am not mistaken , you can have them customized with any window arrengement .   Tod mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: All the talk about the streamline passenger car ends led me to ask the group about the following. I have three old streamline passenger cars that I picked up on a lark on eBay. I am utterly ignorant about early HO passenger cars and I don't know if these are kits, scratchbuilt, or what but I thought I would ask the group. I have posted photos of them in the Photos section of the group under "Matt's Mystery Passenger Cars from the 50s?" The cars are made of an extruded shell, apparently plated (the plating is thin on two of them). They have wooden floors and representative wooden detail bits underneath, and run on die-cast EMD diesel trucks (dummy trucks of course.) The cars are nicely built, with interior details and have mechanical knuckle couplers with a drop-pin underneath. The ends are completely void of all detail except for a single square hole. All of this is shown in the photos. The word "Herkeimer" comes to mind but that is only because the ads for those kits were common in the 50s when I first started MR. If anyone has more info I would love to have it. Thanks!!! Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6333	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeg

Yes, here is the link, http://www.okengines.com/news.shtml Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Riverboy Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:38 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeger cars   Hello,   Your guess on Herkimer is most likely correct , as they had both shorties and full length .   For the record, someone has recently started marketing the line again, and if I am not mistaken , you can have them customized with any window arrengement .   Tod mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@ aim.com> wrote: All the talk about the streamline passenger car ends led me to ask the group about the following. I have three old streamline passenger cars that I picked up on a lark on eBay. I am utterly ignorant about early HO passenger cars and I don't know if these are kits, scratchbuilt, or what but I thought I would ask the group. I have posted photos of them in the Photos section of the group under "Matt's Mystery Passenger Cars from the 50s?" The cars are made of an extruded shell, apparently plated (the plating is thin on two of them). They have wooden floors and representative wooden detail bits underneath, and run on die-cast EMD diesel trucks (dummy trucks of course.) The cars are nicely built, with interior details and have mechanical knuckle couplers with a drop-pin underneath. The ends are completely void of all detail except for a single square hole. All of this is shown in the photos. The word "Herkeimer" comes to mind but that is only because the ads for those kits were common in the 50s when I first started MR. If anyone has more info I would love to have it. Thanks!!! Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6334	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Replacing Wheels in 1940-1941 Prod. Gilbert Coaches

Hi, all, I mentioned a while back my set of Gilbert coaches, which, thanks to the memebers here, I have identified as 1940-1941 production (It originally had truck mounted couplers, but it appears they have been sawed off and pilot holes were drilled in the frame for Mantua loop couplers). One of my two chair cars has a chipped flange, enough out of it that the axle needs to be replaced. The trucks appear to be three piece assemblies with a stamped metal bolster, and cast sideframes that attach into it. How easy is it to bend the sideframe just enough to pop the axle out and replace it with something of the same wheel diameter? I've had good luck doing this with Varney rigid High Center trucks but those were made of a softer metal. Anything I need to know in adavance? Or does anyone know of a replacement truck that would work in these cars? I am considering trying Central Valley 4 wheel Commonwealth coach trucks, but am afraid that as they are longer, they won't have enough swing to go around my 22" curves. The wheel base on the Gilbert trucks is a bit shorter than scale... Any help at all would be appreicated. Thanks Steve Neubaum

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6335	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars

Don: Not quite. Herkimer is now OK Streamliners and can be contacted here: OK Streamliners PO Box 355 Mohawk, NY 13407 (315) 866-1807 (Fax and message line ony). No web site or email address. OK Streamliners does offer a secure email at this address, presumably for online mail orders only here: okengines@... Hope this helps, Dave F ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6336	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: more watermelon cars

Regarding the AHM watermelon cars we discussed some time ago, I have got another one - road name NC&STL . Have added a picture to the folder. ("Gerolds Models") Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6337	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeg

Hum........... Car body extrusions for $3.50 a foot are listed.............. Might be great for anyone that has access to a mill. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 7, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Chuck Higdon wrote: Yes, here is the link, http://www.okengines.com/news.shtml Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Riverboy Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:38 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeger cars   Hello,   Your guess on Herkimer is most likely correct , as they had both shorties and full length .   For the record, someone has recently started marketing the line again, and if I am not mistaken , you can have them customized with any window arrengement .   Tod mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@ aim.com> wrote: All the talk about the streamline passenger car ends led me to ask the group about the following. I have three old streamline passenger cars that I picked up on a lark on eBay. I am utterly ignorant about early HO passenger cars and I don't know if these are kits, scratchbuilt, or what but I thought I would ask the group. I have posted photos of them in the Photos section of the group under "Matt's Mystery Passenger Cars from the 50s?" The cars are made of an extruded shell, apparently plated (the plating is thin on two of them). They have wooden floors and representative wooden detail bits underneath, and run on die-cast EMD diesel trucks (dummy trucks of course.) The cars are nicely built, with interior details and have mechanical knuckle couplers with a drop-pin underneath. The ends are completely void of all detail except for a single square hole. All of this is shown in the photos. The word "Herkeimer" comes to mind but that is only because the ads for those kits were common in the 50s when I first started MR. If anyone has more info I would love to have it. Thanks!!! Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6338	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/8/2008
Subject: Thanks! was: Re: Question about some old streamline passeger cars

My thanks to all of you who responded. In five minutes of reading these posts I learned more than in two days of reading old ads in MR and RMC. This group is a treasure! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Oh, as a PS, the trucks are probably Varney. In the late 1940's they offered them as "delux passenger trucks", it was they're standard F-3 diesel truck with 36" wheels. > > Don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Dellmann > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 6:54 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeger cars > > > Close, very close. > > The plain end with no detail and the wood floor tells me they're Kasiners. Sometime in the mid 1950's Kasiner became Herkimer. Every Herkimer I've seen has a cast end and a masonite floor, otherwise they're pretty similar. > > Herkimer IS still around, they're in the 2008 Walthers book. > > Don > > don.dellmann@... > http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann > Owner-Moderator > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MRPics > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > Co-owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCENERY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Riverboy > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:37 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question about some old streamline passeger cars > > > Hello, > > Your guess on Herkimer is most likely correct , as they had both shorties and full length . > > For the record, someone has recently started marketing the line again, and if I am not mistaken , you can have them customized with any window arrengement . > > Tod > > mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: > All the talk about the streamline passenger car ends led me to ask the > group about the following. I have three old streamline passenger cars > that I picked up on a lark on eBay. I am utterly ignorant about early > HO passenger cars and I don't know if these are kits, scratchbuilt, or > what but I thought I would ask the group. I have posted photos of them > in the Photos section of the group under "Matt's Mystery Passenger > Cars from the 50s?" The cars are made of an extruded shell, apparently > plated (the plating is thin on two of them). They have wooden floors > and representative wooden detail bits underneath, and run on die-cast > EMD diesel trucks (dummy trucks of course.) The cars are nicely built, > with interior details and have mechanical knuckle couplers with a > drop-pin underneath. The ends are completely void of all detail except > for a single square hole. > > All of this is shown in the photos. > > The word "Herkeimer" comes to mind but that is only because the ads > for those kits were common in the 50s when I first started MR. If > anyone has more info I would love to have it. > > Thanks!!! > > Matt Coleman >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6339	From: greendoddz	Date: 6/12/2008
Subject: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning

Just a start, more soon hopefully: http://www.gp30.com/vintage/ Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6340	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning

Hi Andy, Thats a great start.........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6341	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning

Hello Andy,   Are all the models of the diesels derived from your efforts?   If so... GREAT JOB MAN... I was mesmerized with the photos.. almost made me late for work!   Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, greendoddz <greendoddz@...> wrote: From: greendoddz <greendoddz@...> Subject: [vintageHO] My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 1:29 AM Just a start, more soon hopefully: http://www.gp30. com/vintage/ Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6342	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning

Andy, Your site is bookmarked in my favorites. This is a great start and one that I appreciate. All the sites like yours help us model historians (sounds better than collector doesn't it?) identify the kits, bits and pieces we all end up with. Thanks for posting the link! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "greendoddz" <greendoddz@...> wrote: > > Just a start, more soon hopefully: > > http://www.gp30.com/vintage/ > > Andy >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6343	From: rcjge	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning

Hi Andy: Good Start! I too have stuff thats meant to be operational and others, thats more toy like in some ways. I'm actually developing a layout idea that grabs a bunch of stuff that is not rivet-counter stuff but I have and hate waste enough to find a use for them. It's called tentatively the Port Arthur & Fort William Connecting RR. It's placed in what is now Thunder Bay, up on the north/west shore of Lake Superior in Canada about `53-57. There are essentially, thee RR's involved; the above mentioned PA&FW which rosters a converted British Rail Class 08 0-6-0 Diesel Siderod Shunter, an Alco/Ingersoll 60Ton Boxcab, a RRosi 0-8-0 Alco U-4A Switcher and a Consolidation Camelback; a CPR interchange & yard with; Atlas-Roco FP7A/Athearn F7B Dummy, Atlas-Roco S2, Athearn Baldwin DS4-4-1000 and a Steamer, probably a Kitbashed Mantua Pacific to be named later; and the CN element which comprises; two Varney Yard Switchers, Mehano Hudson, Athearn Trainmaster. Thats a pretty miscellaneous group. Mostly they are locomotives that I wanted or liked for one reason or another and wrote a back-history to fit. I like "Critters" as well so I'll have a company that builds small switchers on the layout to allow me to set out some of my Athearn Hustler collection and some kitbash projects... I think you nailed the Vintage time line as well for many. A certain orthodoxy can get in the way there particularly for those exposed to the Lionel crowd. I happen to enjoy Tyco's for example which to many vintage train guys is anathema! OK, but I like them. Also have several Hobbytown Alco's. As a vintage collecting theme I'll be looking for some pre-70 Mantua, Varney as well . Beyond that we'll see... Anyway, good start, thanks for sharing... Best, Gareth --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "greendoddz" <greendoddz@...> wrote: > > Just a start, more soon hopefully: > > http://www.gp30.com/vintage/ > > Andy >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6344	From: jbark76	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Globe Boxcar Doors

Does anyone have any spare Globe boxcar doors lying around? I got a few sets of double-door boxcar sides and was going to use some old box and stock cars to build them up with, however, I'm short about 8 doors. I have some Athearn doors I could probably use, but I thought I'd ask. Thanks, Jeff.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6345	From: Walter	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning

Super! As Gary W. wrote, a great start. Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6346	From: greendoddz	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > Are all the models of the diesels derived from your efforts? Yes... that is sort of a documentary of stuff I've built the last 7-8 years with some gaps and some long neglected projects. I'm not very good at finishing a project before starting the next one... or keeping my web site up to date! One thing I will also eventually feature are some "vintage" kitbashes. These are not models I would show at an RPM meet today, although I did bring some of them just to illustrate the past. I built some very crude diesel conversions in the 1970s, and they have little monetary value today but they are illustrative of what we had to work with back then, before Cannon, and even before there was much available from Details West or Detail Associates. "Super detailing" meant putting piping and lost wax castings on steam locos, it wasn't applied to diesels until guys like Slaughter, Yaremko, Zenk, Six et. al. started writing articles. At least it was not a well-known "thing to do" until then. Many of my widebody kitbashes were learned from L&N models Jim Slaughter did in the early 70s and displayed at Walt's Hobby Shop. His models were L&N, mine were N&W - but the procedure for making an SD40 from an SDP40, or an SD35 from a GP35 and an SDP40, were essentially the same. I remember back then lusting for an Athearn GP30. I didn't realize how bad a model it was (and probably didn't care), but it had been out of production for quite some time and was hard to get hold of. Nowadays they are all over ebay, and I've accumulated some nearly mint condition samples for my vintage collection. I have a fondness for the Athearn GP30, caricature though it may be. It represents a different time - when a manufacturer like Athearn was so eager to get a model of the latest thing onto the market, they didn't even wait to see what the real one looked like before they cut the tooling :-) Another side project I have been working on is a plastic diesel shell museum. I pretty much cut it off at the year 2000; after that point manufacturers began offering substantial variety and acquiring one of ever variant in undec form would be costly and perhaps not even possible - plus many manufacturers don't even sell shells anymore. So my goal is to represent every plastic shell made from the beginning up until at least the late 1990s. Preferably in undec, never-painted plastic but I realize some shells were never offered that way. Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6347	From: greendoddz	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: My Vintage Page - a Small Beginning

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <rcjge@...> wrote: > > I think you nailed the Vintage time line as well for many. A certain > orthodoxy can get in the way there particularly for those exposed to > the Lionel crowd. I happen to enjoy Tyco's for example which to many > vintage train guys is anathema! OK, but I like them. Also have several > Hobbytown Alco's. As a vintage collecting theme I'll be looking for > some pre-70 Mantua, Varney as well . Beyond that we'll see... I had lots of Tyco stuff growing up. It was around 1970 or 71, that I swore it off because I realized if I put together a train of all Athearn cars with body mounted couplers, all of a sudden my derailments pretty much went away. But I still have my old Tyco stuff - before the later brown box / food company era, it was pretty durable, still using the old Mantua tooling. I even remember having "Tyco busting" sessions, where I would run a train of Tyco stuff until something derailed, then just keep running it back and forth, like a battering ram, until the track had been cleared. All that abuse and didn't even break a coupler or stirrup, although the stirrups scale out to about 8x8" pillars I think! I recently bought some Tyco odds and ends in red boxes from the 60s. Some of it mint in shiny red boxes with the cellophane still taut and attached. I think their boxes began to disintegrate the moment the inside of them touched air. So that's nice to find. I also remember many hours with those Tyco catalogs... they were to me what the Lionel catalogs were to many a kid before my time. Anyway... my big crunch at work is finally over. Today is our annual dealer meeting and new product roll-out, my part was over with by lunchtime so I'm just chilling now until the banquet this evening, then my life can get back to something more normal. Anyway I will try to regularly add new items to my vintage page. Maybe next up will be something Tyco :-) Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6348	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Reading Crusader on ebay

Heh, heh, heh. I'm sure you've seen the "rare" assembled Penn Line Reading Crusader, item 170225077745. $1200.00 buy-it-now. Gee, I can't decide if I should spend the money on it or to fix the brakes and front end on my Explorer that have I drive to and from work. Tough decision. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6349	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

Hi John, Man o man, thats a difficult decision to make alright, personally? I would get those breaks fixed!!!!!!!!!!!LOL Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6350	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

So I can STOP myself from buying the Crusader? John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > > Man o man, thats a difficult decision to make alright, personally? I would get those breaks fixed!!!!!!!!!!!LOL > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6351	From: greendoddz	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Heh, heh, heh. I'm sure you've seen the "rare" assembled Penn Line > Reading Crusader, item 170225077745. Well not if you're a rivet counter - it's missing one, listing even says so :-) Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6352	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

Yep, sure can, I don't model the Reading anyway, so I won't be taking the wifes brake pads back to Autozone, that sure was a difficult decision to make for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6353	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

Dang! I do have a 9 am appointment to have my car brakes fixed tomorrow. I guess I'll also have to miss The Crusader this time............ 8^) I didn't realize they were built with those very ugly large rivets scattered about on the sides. I think I'll go back to the old idea of making one out of the OK streamlined car extrusions. I see those are back on the market as a part selling for about $3.50 a foot for the blank extrusions.......... A Mantua Pacific mechanism would do one just fine. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 13, 2008, at 3:31 PM, John Hagen wrote: > So I can STOP myself from buying the Crusader? > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> Man o man, thats a difficult decision to make alright, personally? I > would get those breaks fixed!!!!!!!!!!!LOL >> >> Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6354	From: jay matz	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

I think I will let this one pass.I all ready have two. Jay --- On Fri, 6/13/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Reading Crusader on ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 4:06 PM Heh, heh, heh. I'm sure you've seen the "rare" assembled Penn Line Reading Crusader, item 170225077745. $1200.00 buy-it-now. Gee, I can't decide if I should spend the money on it or to fix the brakes and front end on my Explorer that have I drive to and from work. Tough decision. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6355	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Globe Boxcar Doors

If you can find someone with a Mattel Vac-U- Form this is a perfect way of making doors--copy in thin styrene. gj (No--I don;t have the machine.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbark76" <jbark76@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 5:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Globe Boxcar Doors > Does anyone have any spare Globe boxcar doors lying around? I got a > few sets of double-door boxcar sides and was going to use some old box > and stock cars to build them up with, however, I'm short about 8 > doors. I have some Athearn doors I could probably use, but I thought > I'd ask. Thanks, Jeff. > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6356	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Mantua

Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6357	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Globe Boxcar Doors

You reminded me ....... I need to order a couple of the upgrade kits for those......... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 13, 2008, at 6:35 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > If you can find someone with a Mattel Vac-U- Form this is a perfect > way of > making doors--copy in thin styrene. gj (No--I don;t have the > machine.) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jbark76" <jbark76@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 5:24 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Globe Boxcar Doors > > >> Does anyone have any spare Globe boxcar doors lying around? I got a >> few sets of double-door boxcar sides and was going to use some old >> box >> and stock cars to build them up with, however, I'm short about 8 >> doors. I have some Athearn doors I could probably use, but I thought >> I'd ask. Thanks, Jeff.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6358	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua

Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6359	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua

I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6360	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua

yes--the loop is supposed to just slide over the top.  Otherwise they look like a track gauge.  Like Simpson or Railway Engineering.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6361	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua

Sean--my addr. glenn476@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6362	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua

I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6363	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/13/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua

Well, I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some time ago..   I will keep looking though..   Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6364	From: jbark76	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Globe Boxcar Doors

That sounds like a great idea, thanks! --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > If you can find someone with a Mattel Vac-U- Form this is a perfect way of > making doors--copy in thin styrene. gj (No--I don;t have the machine.)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6365	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: LED LIGHTING

I am interested in replacing the "old" constant lighting (diodes plus 1.5v bulbs), in a 60s era double-ender diesel in CNJ colors, with LEDs. However, my limited search on installing LEDs always shows it in use with DCC. I don't have DCC installed at all and my limited H0 operations is strictly old-fashioned DC. So, can one easily get a constant voltage to an LED? Dropping resistors are fine when dropping a constant voltage but ordinary DC will vary. Ray H.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6366	From: jbark76	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: LED LIGHTING

I don't think you have to worry so much. An LED is constant voltage. You will need to experiment with a resister that works best 1kOhm, 1.8kOhm? I would have to dig to get a good starting point. However, the LED will always take the same voltage and the resister will absorb the rest. Also note that an LED is a diode, so it will light with one polarity and not the other (direction). You would also likely need to use a bridge rectifier (which you can make with regular diodes) so that your LED will light in both directions. If, however, you just want the light to light in one direction, you just need the LED and resister. Good luck, Jeff --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: > > I am interested in replacing the "old" constant lighting (diodes plus > 1.5v bulbs), in a 60s era double-ender diesel in CNJ colors, with LEDs. > However, my limited search on installing LEDs always shows it in use > with DCC. > > I don't have DCC installed at all and my limited H0 operations is > strictly old-fashioned DC. So, can one easily get a constant voltage > to an LED? Dropping resistors are fine when dropping a constant voltage > but ordinary DC will vary. > > Ray H. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6367	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua

I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, for 35 cents.  The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64.  Which would make the top of the gauge 43/128.  Not the easiest of numbers to measure which maybe why the gauge. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Well, I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some time ago..   I will keep looking though..   Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6368	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

One thing has always stuck in my mind what I was told as a young man,, "it is only worth what someone will pay for it",, which comes to mind another old saying,, when someone buys it at that price,, "that is where two fools meet the one who wants too much for it and the one who has too much money to pay for it",  and makes it hard on the rest of us who has to try to survive.. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Reading Crusader on ebay Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Hi John, Man o man, thats a difficult decision to make alright, personally? I would get those breaks fixed!!!!!!!!!!!LOL Gary W -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6369	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

All I know is... I paid more than $400 less for mine... I am happy with that... Maybe if that one had the decals and original paint, I might consider it, but it does not... little dinged too...   Sean --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Charles Windes <cwindes@...> wrote: From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> Subject: Re:Re: [vintageHO] Reading Crusader on ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 1:16 PM One thing has always stuck in my mind what I was told as a young man,, "it is only worth what someone will pay for it",, which comes to mind another old saying,, when someone buys it at that price,, "that is where two fools meet the one who wants too much for it and the one who has too much money to pay for it",  and makes it hard on the rest of us who has to try to survive.. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Reading Crusader on ebay Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Hi John, Man o man, thats a difficult decision to make alright, personally? I would get those breaks fixed!!!!!!! !!!!LOL Gary W -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6370	From: wallagus	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?

Does anyone have a picture of the old style Athearn chassis GP/F unit with the metal gear towers. I think this is the type that pre-dated the HiFi rubber band drives. thanks, phil

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6371	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?

If you go to the Photos section of the Vintage HO website, a while back I posted pictures of this type, and various other Athearn drives. You can find it listed as Globes, Hi Fs, and Athearns. Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6372	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

Hi Charlie, Your right, something, anything, is only worth someone is willing to pay for it, now if I had something like that, I could probably get about $5.00 for it, simply because when it comes to me, I don't know enough folks with that much money that are so willing to be separated from it..................:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6373	From: Phillip VanderHeyden	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?

I see. So the cast metal geartower trucks are Globe not Athearn? Were these made for GPs also, or just the F units? thanks, phil MRLENGAL2U@... wrote: > > > If you go to the Photos section of the Vintage HO website, a while > back I posted pictures of this type, and various other Athearn drives. > You can find it listed as Globes, Hi Fs, and Athearns. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get the Moviefone Toolbar > <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011>. > Showtimes, theaters, movie news, more! >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6374	From: Gerry D	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: LED LIGHTING

Ray, I strongly suggest you visit this link: http://www.ngineering.com/LED_Calculators.htm Core page: http://www.ngineering.com/ Granted they are geared to N scale, but a good understanding can obtained there. Also some java script calculators to find out resistances required! Cordially, Gerry --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: > From: Ray Hobin <tcol@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] LED LIGHTING > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 9:04 AM > I am interested in replacing the "old" constant > lighting (diodes plus > 1.5v bulbs), in a 60s era double-ender diesel in CNJ > colors, with LEDs. > However, my limited search on installing LEDs always shows > it in use > with DCC. > > I don't have DCC installed at all and my limited H0 > operations is > strictly old-fashioned DC. So, can one easily get a > constant voltage > to an LED? Dropping resistors are fine when dropping a > constant voltage > but ordinary DC will vary. > > Ray H. > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6375	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

A good con man has the ability to separate peopel from their money. You would be a lousy con man. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Charlie, > > Your right, something, anything, is only worth someone is willing to pay for it, now if I had something like that, I could probably get about $5.00 for it, simply because when it comes to me, I don't know enough folks with that much money that are so willing to be separated from it..................:o) > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6376	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua

Thanks--I'll have to translate the measurements do decimals--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, for 35 cents.  The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64.  Which would make the top of the gauge 43/128.  Not the easiest of numbers to measure which maybe why the gauge. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Well, I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some time ago..   I will keep looking though..   Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6377	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?

I remember what they looked like--no pix--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "wallagus" <pvande1@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 11:42 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures? >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6378	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?

I had a GP-9 with that drive--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillip VanderHeyden" <

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6379	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

Hi John, I would make a terrible con man, thats soooooo true..........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6380	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 6/14/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures?

The drives with those gear towers were used in both the F units and the GPs. They came dual powered, and single powered, with the single power truck version having no gears on the axles in the unpowered truck, just a spacer, and a cover for the truck which held it in place with no tower. Olympic Express also had a variation of the F units and GPs, which used a cast brass frame, their own motor and weights... but kept those same trucks and towers, and the Athearn shells. You can find ads for them in old MRs and RMCs. Herkimer also sold sets that featured early geared Athearn locos, again, the F units and GPs, but unless in the box, I don't know how you could tell the difference. You can find ads for these in  the old mags as well. Penn Line had Athearn produced Fs and GPs also, but I think that they were always Hi Fs, until they introduced their own drive, at first with Athearn shells, and then their own modified shells, which Life Like was still selling until recently. Those same shells were found on Varneys for a while, too... with the Penn Line names scratched out on the inside. Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6381	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/15/2008
Subject: The Withlacoochee River Report

Hi Ya'll, I managed to actually get some things done on my railroad in the past few weeks, even though through it all I was also nursing a toothache, a really bad one too, but I did manage to get some scenery in the yard, as well as on some of my hills, also got the bridge installed on the low line crossing the Withlacoochee River, (the duckunder), while I have been working with mostly foam scenery, I plan on using some rigid wrap to do the rest of the shallow hill scenery around the back of the layout facing the windows, as well as in the other two corners. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2ZcGHbgbbs Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6382	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: ID some oldies...

Fixed up a local's modern H0 loco as a favor and he gave me 4 real old H0 items which I cannot ID. I started in the mid-50s and these are earlier items. Unfortunately, none are complete. I have U/L them to the foto section in an album called "Ray's Oldies". They are labeled - box.jpg; brass.jpg; caboose.jpg; and, coal.jpg (hope pix are reasonably viewable as my camera is limited to 3.5 mp): Box: All metal, no factory markings at all. Factory ptd Milwaukee Road...Route of the Electrified Olympian. Sliding doors are missing. Trucks have rigid/solid side-frames. Floor attaches w/4 screws. Brass: Roof missing; some type of baggage/mail/work car w/sliding doors. End platforms and bolster are cast metal and stamped "Mantua". Trucks are "Central Valley". Couplers are scale w/working knuckles. Guess this then is Mantua...but when made? Caboose: All wood, cupola missing. ONLY sides appear to be factory ptd/lettered, Great Northern X204. Rest of car was owner painted. Trucks are sprung, couplers are scale non-working. Coal: Low sided hopper with 8 hinged drop-pans underneath that work. Unfortunately, one complete side is missing. Factory lettered "Utah Coal Route". Sprung trucks. X2f style couplers and coupler pocket covers are stamped "RailLine". What sayeth this group? :) Ray Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6383	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

Yeah Gary everytime I get something supposedly worth a lot of money Everyone says it ain't worth anything, os I just buy what I like and want and to HECK with the naysayers, of course when I get rid of it the person  I sell it ot get a small fortune for it OH WELL. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:Re: [vintageHO] Reading Crusader on ebay Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Hi Charlie, Your right, something, anything, is only worth someone is willing to pay for it, now if I had something like that, I could probably get about $5.00 for it, simply because when it comes to me, I don't know enough folks with that much money that are so willing to be separated from it..................:o) Gary W -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6384	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

I could never be a Con Man I would end up feeling badly thinking I was screwing someone so I would probably give it to them. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re:Re: [vintageHO] Reading Crusader on ebay > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:15:45 -0000 > > > A good con man has the ability to separate peopel from their money. You > would be a lousy con man. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Charlie, > > > > Your right, something, anything, is only worth someone is willing to > pay for it, now if I had something like that, I could probably get > about $5.00 for it, simply because when it comes to me, I don't know > enough folks with that much money that are so willing to be separated > from it..................:o) > > > > Gary W > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6385	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

quick and dirty...   First (box) looks to na a MDC Roundhouse (Brass) is a Mantua passenger car (caboose) looks to be roundhouse (coal) is a ULRICH GS GONDOLA CAR   Sean   --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: From: Ray Hobin <tcol@...> Subject: [vintageHO] ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:16 PM Fixed up a local's modern H0 loco as a favor and he gave me 4 real old H0 items which I cannot ID. I started in the mid-50s and these are earlier items. Unfortunately, none are complete. I have U/L them to the foto section in an album called "Ray's Oldies". They are labeled - box.jpg; brass.jpg; caboose.jpg; and, coal.jpg (hope pix are reasonably viewable as my camera is limited to 3.5 mp): Box: All metal, no factory markings at all. Factory ptd Milwaukee Road...Route of the Electrified Olympian. Sliding doors are missing. Trucks have rigid/solid side-frames. Floor attaches w/4 screws. Brass: Roof missing; some type of baggage/mail/ work car w/sliding doors. End platforms and bolster are cast metal and stamped "Mantua". Trucks are "Central Valley". Couplers are scale w/working knuckles. Guess this then is Mantua...but when made? Caboose: All wood, cupola missing. ONLY sides appear to be factory ptd/lettered, Great Northern X204. Rest of car was owner painted. Trucks are sprung, couplers are scale non-working. Coal: Low sided hopper with 8 hinged drop-pans underneath that work. Unfortunately, one complete side is missing. Factory lettered "Utah Coal Route". Sprung trucks. X2f style couplers and coupler pocket covers are stamped "RailLine". What sayeth this group? :) Ray Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6386	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

Without seeing the pix, I'm going to guess: Box--is it die cast, horizontal ribbed sides? if so, MDC. They did come with sprung trucks, but these can be changed. Baggage--sounds Mantua.If sides are brass, could be anywhere from 1946 to 52, or after 54. Steel sides during Korean War. Caboose sounds like Silver Streak--are the window frames and ends cast metal? Coal Gon--Ulrich. Rail Line was one of the first manufacturers of X2f couplers not for OEM inclusion in the mfr's own kits. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:16 AM Subject: [vintageHO] ID some oldies... > Fixed up a local's modern H0 loco as a favor and he gave me 4 real old > H0 items which I cannot ID. I started in the mid-50s and these are > earlier items. Unfortunately, none are complete. I have U/L them to > the foto section in an album called "Ray's Oldies". They are labeled - > box.jpg; brass.jpg; caboose.jpg; and, coal.jpg (hope pix are reasonably > viewable as my camera is limited to 3.5 mp): > > Box: All metal, no factory markings at all. Factory ptd Milwaukee > Road...Route of the Electrified Olympian. Sliding doors are missing. > Trucks have rigid/solid side-frames. Floor attaches w/4 screws. > > Brass: Roof missing; some type of baggage/mail/work car w/sliding > doors. End platforms and bolster are cast metal and stamped "Mantua". > Trucks are "Central Valley". Couplers are scale w/working knuckles. > Guess this then is Mantua...but when made? > > Caboose: All wood, cupola missing. ONLY sides appear to be factory > ptd/lettered, Great Northern X204. Rest of car was owner painted. > Trucks are sprung, couplers are scale non-working. > > Coal: Low sided hopper with 8 hinged drop-pans underneath that work. > Unfortunately, one complete side is missing. Factory lettered "Utah > Coal Route". Sprung trucks. X2f style couplers and coupler pocket > covers are stamped "RailLine". > > What sayeth this group? :) > > Ray > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6387	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

If the caboose has "All wood" roof, sides, and floor, would not be MDC/ Roundhouse. I;ll stick with Silver Streak on this, agree on the other three.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID some oldies... quick and dirty...   First (box) looks to na a MDC Roundhouse (Brass) is a Mantua passenger car (caboose) looks to be roundhouse (coal) is a ULRICH GS GONDOLA CAR   Sean   --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: From: Ray Hobin <tcol@...> Subject: [vintageHO] ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:16 PM Fixed up a local's modern H0 loco as a favor and he gave me 4 real old H0 items which I cannot ID. I started in the mid-50s and these are earlier items. Unfortunately, none are complete. I have U/L them to the foto section in an album called "Ray's Oldies". They are labeled - box.jpg; brass.jpg; caboose.jpg; and, coal.jpg (hope pix are reasonably viewable as my camera is limited to 3.5 mp): Box: All metal, no factory markings at all. Factory ptd Milwaukee Road...Route of the Electrified Olympian. Sliding doors are missing. Trucks have rigid/solid side-frames. Floor attaches w/4 screws. Brass: Roof missing; some type of baggage/mail/ work car w/sliding doors. End platforms and bolster are cast metal and stamped "Mantua". Trucks are "Central Valley". Couplers are scale w/working knuckles. Guess this then is Mantua...but when made? Caboose: All wood, cupola missing. ONLY sides appear to be factory ptd/lettered, Great Northern X204. Rest of car was owner painted. Trucks are sprung, couplers are scale non-working. Coal: Low sided hopper with 8 hinged drop-pans underneath that work. Unfortunately, one complete side is missing. Factory lettered "Utah Coal Route". Sprung trucks. X2f style couplers and coupler pocket covers are stamped "RailLine". What sayeth this group? :) Ray Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6388	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

You are right Glenn   Dummy me, I did not read the description.. I had 1 minute on my lunch break left and quickly looked at the pics..   Definately a Silver streek Caboose, not MDC as I sugested earlier...   Sean --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 1:40 PM Without seeing the pix, I'm going to guess: Box--is it die cast, horizontal ribbed sides? if so, MDC. They did come with sprung trucks, but these can be changed. Baggage--sounds Mantua.If sides are brass, could be anywhere from 1946 to 52, or after 54. Steel sides during Korean War. Caboose sounds like Silver Streak--are the window frames and ends cast metal? Coal Gon--Ulrich. Rail Line was one of the first manufacturers of X2f couplers not for OEM inclusion in the mfr's own kits. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:16 AM Subject: [vintageHO] ID some oldies... > Fixed up a local's modern H0 loco as a favor and he gave me 4 real old > H0 items which I cannot ID. I started in the mid-50s and these are > earlier items. Unfortunately, none are complete. I have U/L them to > the foto section in an album called "Ray's Oldies". They are labeled - > box.jpg; brass.jpg; caboose.jpg; and, coal.jpg (hope pix are reasonably > viewable as my camera is limited to 3.5 mp): > > Box: All metal, no factory markings at all. Factory ptd Milwaukee > Road...Route of the Electrified Olympian. Sliding doors are missing. > Trucks have rigid/solid side-frames. Floor attaches w/4 screws. > > Brass: Roof missing; some type of baggage/mail/ work car w/sliding > doors. End platforms and bolster are cast metal and stamped "Mantua". > Trucks are "Central Valley". Couplers are scale w/working knuckles. > Guess this then is Mantua...but when made? > > Caboose: All wood, cupola missing. ONLY sides appear to be factory > ptd/lettered, Great Northern X204. Rest of car was owner painted. > Trucks are sprung, couplers are scale non-working. > > Coal: Low sided hopper with 8 hinged drop-pans underneath that work. > Unfortunately, one complete side is missing. Factory lettered "Utah > Coal Route". Sprung trucks. X2f style couplers and coupler pocket > covers are stamped "RailLine". > > What sayeth this group? :) > > Ray > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6389	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

Attachments : So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old globe units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed with the solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor for some reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a smaller one with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience remotoring one of these? thanks, phil -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: MRLENGAL2U@... > The drives with those gear towers were used in both the F units and the GPs. > They came dual powered, and single powered, with the single power truck version > having no gears on the axles in the unpowered truck, just a spacer, and a cover > for the truck which held it in place with no tower. Olympic Express also had a > variation of the F units and GPs, which used a cast brass frame, their own motor > and weights... but kept those same trucks and towers, and the Athearn shells. > You can find ads for them in old MRs and RMCs. Herkimer also sold sets that > featured early geared Athearn locos, again, the F units and GPs, but unless in > the box, I don't know how you could tell the difference. You can find ads for > these in? the old mags as well. Penn Line had Athearn produced Fs and GPs also, > but I think that they were always Hi Fs, until they introduced their own drive, > at first with Athearn shells, and then their own modified shells, which Life > Like was still selling until recently. Those same shells were found on Varneys > for a while, too... with the Penn Line names scratched out on the inside. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6390	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

Probably one of the best diesel drives ever made--with a newer motor unbeatable. I got one in the mid-fifties--repowered it in the sixties using a Pittman DC-85 motor, with a Varney die cast shell-- don't know what ever happened to it. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: <pvande1@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Cc: <MRLENGAL2U@...> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering? > So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old globe > units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed with the > solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor for some > reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a smaller one > with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience remotoring one of > these? > > thanks, > > phil > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: MRLENGAL2U@... >> The drives with those gear towers were used in both the F units and the >> GPs. >> They came dual powered, and single powered, with the single power truck >> version >> having no gears on the axles in the unpowered truck, just a spacer, and a >> cover >> for the truck which held it in place with no tower. Olympic Express also >> had a >> variation of the F units and GPs, which used a cast brass frame, their >> own motor >> and weights... but kept those same trucks and towers, and the Athearn >> shells. >> You can find ads for them in old MRs and RMCs. Herkimer also sold sets >> that >> featured early geared Athearn locos, again, the F units and GPs, but >> unless in >> the box, I don't know how you could tell the difference. You can find ads >> for >> these in? the old mags as well. Penn Line had Athearn produced Fs and GPs >> also, >> but I think that they were always Hi Fs, until they introduced their own >> drive, >> at first with Athearn shells, and then their own modified shells, which >> Life >> Like was still selling until recently. Those same shells were found on >> Varneys >> for a while, too... with the Penn Line names scratched out on the inside. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6391	From: Dave Royer	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

Many of the old motors ran hot. They had relative weak magnets sometimes they (the magnets) were too small for the motor. pvande1@... wrote: So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old globe units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed with the solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor for some reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a smaller one with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience remotoring one of these? thanks, phil ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- - From: MRLENGAL2U@aol. com > The drives with those gear towers were used in both the F units and the GPs. > They came dual powered, and single powered, with the single power truck version > having no gears on the axles in the unpowered truck, just a spacer, and a cover > for the truck which held it in place with no tower. Olympic Express also had a > variation of the F units and GPs, which used a cast brass frame, their own motor > and weights... but kept those same trucks and towers, and the Athearn shells. > You can find ads for them in old MRs and RMCs. Herkimer also sold sets that > featured early geared Athearn locos, again, the F units and GPs, but unless in > the box, I don't know how you could tell the difference. You can find ads for > these in? the old mags as well. Penn Line had Athearn produced Fs and GPs also, > but I think that they were always Hi Fs, until they introduced their own drive, > at first with Athearn shells, and then their own modified shells, which Life > Like was still selling until recently. Those same shells were found on Varneys > for a while, too... with the Penn Line names scratched out on the inside. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures? From: MRLENGAL2U@... Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:30:15 +0000 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com The drives with those gear towers were used in both the F units and the GPs. They came dual powered, and single powered, with the single power truck version having no gears on the axles in the unpowered truck, just a spacer, and a cover for the truck which held it in place with no tower. Olympic Express also had a variation of the F units and GPs, which used a cast brass frame, their own motor and weights... but kept those same trucks and towers, and the Athearn shells. You can find ads for them in old MRs and RMCs. Herkimer also sold sets that featured early geared Athearn locos, again, the F units and GPs, but unless in the box, I don't know how you could tell the difference. You can find ads for these in  the old mags as well. Penn Line had Athearn produced Fs and GPs also, but I think that they were always Hi Fs, until they introduced their own drive, at first with Athearn shells, and then their own modified shells, which Life Like was still selling until recently. Those same shells were found on Varneys for a while, too... with the Penn Line names scratched out on the inside. Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, more!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6392	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

the stock motor was fairly large and fully enclosed, except for right around the brushes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Royer To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering? Many of the old motors ran hot. They had relative weak magnets sometimes they (the magnets) were too small for the motor. pvande1@... wrote: So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old globe units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed with the solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor for some reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a smaller one with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience remotoring one of these? thanks, phil ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- - From: MRLENGAL2U@aol. com > The drives with those gear towers were used in both the F units and the GPs. > They came dual powered, and single powered, with the single power truck version > having no gears on the axles in the unpowered truck, just a spacer, and a cover > for the truck which held it in place with no tower. Olympic Express also had a > variation of the F units and GPs, which used a cast brass frame, their own motor > and weights... but kept those same trucks and towers, and the Athearn shells. > You can find ads for them in old MRs and RMCs. Herkimer also sold sets that > featured early geared Athearn locos, again, the F units and GPs, but unless in > the box, I don't know how you could tell the difference. You can find ads for > these in? the old mags as well. Penn Line had Athearn produced Fs and GPs also, > but I think that they were always Hi Fs, until they introduced their own drive, > at first with Athearn shells, and then their own modified shells, which Life > Like was still selling until recently. Those same shells were found on Varneys > for a while, too... with the Penn Line names scratched out on the inside. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Athearn with metal gear towers - pictures? From: MRLENGAL2U@... Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:30:15 +0000 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com The drives with those gear towers were used in both the F units and the GPs. They came dual powered, and single powered, with the single power truck version having no gears on the axles in the unpowered truck, just a spacer, and a cover for the truck which held it in place with no tower. Olympic Express also had a variation of the F units and GPs, which used a cast brass frame, their own motor and weights... but kept those same trucks and towers, and the Athearn shells. You can find ads for them in old MRs and RMCs. Herkimer also sold sets that featured early geared Athearn locos, again, the F units and GPs, but unless in the box, I don't know how you could tell the difference. You can find ads for these in  the old mags as well. Penn Line had Athearn produced Fs and GPs also, but I think that they were always Hi Fs, until they introduced their own drive, at first with Athearn shells, and then their own modified shells, which Life Like was still selling until recently. Those same shells were found on Varneys for a while, too... with the Penn Line names scratched out on the inside. Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, more!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6393	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/16/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

Hi Charlie, I know thats right, I seem to have the same problem, I get something for top dollar, and can't sell it for what its really worth, but the person I sell it too certainly can.............:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6394	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

Thanks for the responses on identifying the 4 models I posted. And, I'll accept the caboose as being Silver Streak...I did omit the fact the ends and steps and window frames were castings. Surprised I didn't think of Silver Streak as I did, many years ago, assemble a few of them...no cabooses though. Not too familiar with Ulrich...believe the only Ulrich car I assembled was their track cleaning car whose cleaning fluid I never could get to drip just right. Thanks again... Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6395	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: A bit off topic and I kinda hate to post it, but this is Your congre

The following post is off topic, but not only was it shocking to me in some ways it as funny and I just had to share... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- Your congress at work. You're going to love this on IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT ENERGY SAVER LIGHT BULBS! Hooray for Ted Poe! Now, is anybody else in Washington listening? Or have the Chinese lobbyists taken them all out to lunch? You guys have got to see this you Tube video of this conngressman's speach. http://youtube.com/watch?v=e-LOtKIIKcg&feature=related

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6396	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

Phil, Sacrilegious actions are in the eye of the beholder and perhaps some future buyer. I like vintage locos and cars but have to admit that those old motors aren't always the best. Some are and some aren't. With the Globe unit I would seriously consider remotoring it with a newer motor. Those gearboxes are some of the better ones made and a new motor would improve the running. One of the reasons the motor runs hot is that the magnets are probably losing their strength so the motor draws more current. You could get them remagnetized but I think a new motor would be a better choice. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, pvande1@... wrote: > > So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old globe units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed with the solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor for some reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a smaller one with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience remotoring one of these? > > thanks, > > phil > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6397	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

Attachments : I think I'm going to give it a shot. I'll have to machine the frame a bit to get flywheels to fit in. I know I've got a mashima or two sitting in the parts bin. What I'd really like to do is get an F-unit and put a holland motor in it with these trucks the low speed of the holland would be ok, i think. I'll have to look around. thanks, phil -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> > Phil, > > Sacrilegious actions are in the eye of the beholder and perhaps some > future buyer. I like vintage locos and cars but have to admit that > those old motors aren't always the best. Some are and some aren't. With > the Globe unit I would seriously consider remotoring it with a newer > motor. Those gearboxes are some of the better ones made and a new motor > would improve the running. One of the reasons the motor runs hot is > that the magnets are probably losing their strength so the motor draws > more current. You could get them remagnetized but I think a new motor > would be a better choice. > > Matt > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, pvande1@... wrote: > > > > So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old > globe units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed > with the solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor > for some reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a > smaller one with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience > remotoring one of these? > > > > thanks, > > > > phil > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6398	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

C. J. Ulrich Co. made a variety of freight cars--mostly open types--had a nice outside-braced boxcar with the framing cast and the board sides in wood. Also a stock car using the same parts. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:06 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ID some oldies... > Not too familiar with Ulrich...believe the only Ulrich car I assembled

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6399	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

I love their trucks, but man they are expensive.. $40 or moe for each, especially if it is a tanker..   I might have 5 trucks all together.. maybe 7..   Sean --- On Tue, 6/17/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2008, 1:15 PM C. J. Ulrich Co. made a variety of freight cars--mostly open types--had a nice outside-braced boxcar with the framing cast and the board sides in wood. Also a stock car using the same parts. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:06 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ID some oldies... > Not too familiar with Ulrich...believe the only Ulrich car I assembled

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6400	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

Phil--where can I get those Holland motors? I have used up my supply from many years ago. That would be my choice to re-motor that Globe--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: <pvande1@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering? >I think I'm going to give it a shot. I'll have to machine the frame a bit >to get flywheels to fit in. I know I've got a mashima or two sitting in >the parts bin. What I'd really like to do is get an F-unit and put a >holland motor in it with these trucks the low speed of the holland would be >ok, i think. I'll have to look around. > > thanks, > > phil > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> >> Phil, >> >> Sacrilegious actions are in the eye of the beholder and perhaps some >> future buyer. I like vintage locos and cars but have to admit that >> those old motors aren't always the best. Some are and some aren't. With >> the Globe unit I would seriously consider remotoring it with a newer >> motor. Those gearboxes are some of the better ones made and a new motor >> would improve the running. One of the reasons the motor runs hot is >> that the magnets are probably losing their strength so the motor draws >> more current. You could get them remagnetized but I think a new motor >> would be a better choice. >> >> Matt >> >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, pvande1@... wrote: >> > >> > So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old >> globe units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed >> with the solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor >> for some reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a >> smaller one with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience >> remotoring one of these? >> > >> > thanks, >> > >> > phil >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6401	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

Attachments : Ebay Item - 230137929293 Try this instead, its a faulhaber coreless motor, I redid an athearn much like a PPW/A-line setup with the holland motor. There are other faulhaber motors on ebay, but in the model rr sections the vendors like to charge a premium. Don't pay more than $10, just wait a while. You'll have to pull off the gear on the end and use brass tubing to get the diameter to 1/8 to fit the globe trucks. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > Phil--where can I get those Holland motors? I have used up my supply from > many years ago. That would be my choice to re-motor that Globe--gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <pvande1@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:23 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - > repowering? > > > >I think I'm going to give it a shot. I'll have to machine the frame a bit > >to get flywheels to fit in. I know I've got a mashima or two sitting in > >the parts bin. What I'd really like to do is get an F-unit and put a > >holland motor in it with these trucks the low speed of the holland would be > >ok, i think. I'll have to look around. > > > > thanks, > > > > phil > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> > >> Phil, > >> > >> Sacrilegious actions are in the eye of the beholder and perhaps some > >> future buyer. I like vintage locos and cars but have to admit that > >> those old motors aren't always the best. Some are and some aren't. With > >> the Globe unit I would seriously consider remotoring it with a newer > >> motor. Those gearboxes are some of the better ones made and a new motor > >> would improve the running. One of the reasons the motor runs hot is > >> that the magnets are probably losing their strength so the motor draws > >> more current. You could get them remagnetized but I think a new motor > >> would be a better choice. > >> > >> Matt > >> > >> > >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, pvande1@... wrote: > >> > > >> > So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old > >> globe units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed > >> with the solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor > >> for some reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a > >> smaller one with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience > >> remotoring one of these? > >> > > >> > thanks, > >> > > >> > phil > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6402	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

Thanks--but I am specifically looking for the Holland motors. I have several On3 Mikes with them, and a couple more that need the new motors--and I like to keep them the same for doubleheading and pushing. I also have Hollands in several Hobbytown.Varney sets--I like them-- and I'd prefer to find a seller at a fixed price. Too many crazy bidders on eBay. Example--a pair of marker lamp brackets--I dropped out at about $25 since I know where I can get them for a bit over that. They went over $60. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: <pvande1@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering? > > Ebay Item - 230137929293 > > Try this instead, its a faulhaber coreless motor, I redid an athearn much > like a PPW/A-line setup with the holland motor. > > There are other faulhaber motors on ebay, but in the model rr sections the > vendors like to charge a premium. Don't pay more than $10, just wait a > while. You'll have to pull off the gear on the end and use brass tubing > to get the diameter to 1/8 to fit the globe trucks. > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> >> Phil--where can I get those Holland motors? I have used up my supply >> from >> many years ago. That would be my choice to re-motor that Globe--gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <pvande1@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - >> repowering? >> >> >> >I think I'm going to give it a shot. I'll have to machine the frame a >> >bit >> >to get flywheels to fit in. I know I've got a mashima or two sitting in >> >the parts bin. What I'd really like to do is get an F-unit and put a >> >holland motor in it with these trucks the low speed of the holland would >> >be >> >ok, i think. I'll have to look around. >> > >> > thanks, >> > >> > phil >> > >> > >> > -------------- Original message ---------------------- >> > From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> >> >> Phil, >> >> >> >> Sacrilegious actions are in the eye of the beholder and perhaps some >> >> future buyer. I like vintage locos and cars but have to admit that >> >> those old motors aren't always the best. Some are and some aren't. >> >> With >> >> the Globe unit I would seriously consider remotoring it with a newer >> >> motor. Those gearboxes are some of the better ones made and a new >> >> motor >> >> would improve the running. One of the reasons the motor runs hot is >> >> that the magnets are probably losing their strength so the motor draws >> >> more current. You could get them remagnetized but I think a new motor >> >> would be a better choice. >> >> >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, pvande1@... wrote: >> >> > >> >> > So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old >> >> globe units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed >> >> with the solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor >> >> for some reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a >> >> smaller one with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience >> >> remotoring one of these? >> >> > >> >> > thanks, >> >> > >> >> > phil >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6403	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

They also had some double sheathed box cars (the first wood kit I ever did was a DL&W box), and a reefer in the Walthers' years as part of their "Roaring 20's" line, not to mention the ubiquitous track cleaner car.   The trucks were nice, I've a few of the Kenworths , including a dump truck, wouldn't mind getting my hands on some of the Macks.   Don Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: C. J. Ulrich Co. made a variety of freight cars--mostly open types--had a nice outside-braced boxcar with the framing cast and the board sides in wood. Also a stock car using the same parts. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:06 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ID some oldies... > Not too familiar with Ulrich...believe the only Ulrich car I assembled ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6404	From: wallagus	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - repowering?

I put a picture of the faulhaber motor in one of my Athearn chassis in the photos section. fyi. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/152e I think the holland motors are actually made by Philips electronics in, well, Holland. The typical PPW holland can motor is actually a tape deck spindle, as one end actually is set up to pull tape through a mechanism, if i recall correctly. I've also seen variations with only one shaft, as the other end is cut off. Apparently the coreless motor has less inertia so it comes up to speed quickly, an advantage in a tape drive. Here's a single shaft holland on ebay. Item 280236937930 Also here - Item 200226936150 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Thanks--but I am specifically looking for the Holland motors. I have several > On3 Mikes with them, and a couple more that need the new motors--and I like > to keep them the same for doubleheading and pushing. I also have Hollands > in several Hobbytown.Varney sets--I like them-- and I'd prefer to find a > seller at a fixed price. Too many crazy bidders on eBay. Example--a pair > of marker lamp brackets--I dropped out at about $25 since I know where I can > get them for a bit over that. They went over $60. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <pvande1@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:57 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - > repowering? > > > > > > Ebay Item - 230137929293 > > > > Try this instead, its a faulhaber coreless motor, I redid an athearn much > > like a PPW/A-line setup with the holland motor. > > > > There are other faulhaber motors on ebay, but in the model rr sections the > > vendors like to charge a premium. Don't pay more than $10, just wait a > > while. You'll have to pull off the gear on the end and use brass tubing > > to get the diameter to 1/8 to fit the globe trucks. > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > >> Phil--where can I get those Holland motors? I have used up my supply > >> from > >> many years ago. That would be my choice to re-motor that Globe--gj > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: <pvande1@...> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:23 AM > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Athearn with metal gear towers - > >> repowering? > >> > >> > >> >I think I'm going to give it a shot. I'll have to machine the frame a > >> >bit > >> >to get flywheels to fit in. I know I've got a mashima or two sitting in > >> >the parts bin. What I'd really like to do is get an F-unit and put a > >> >holland motor in it with these trucks the low speed of the holland would > >> >be > >> >ok, i think. I'll have to look around. > >> > > >> > thanks, > >> > > >> > phil > >> > > >> > > >> > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > >> > From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> > >> >> Phil, > >> >> > >> >> Sacrilegious actions are in the eye of the beholder and perhaps some > >> >> future buyer. I like vintage locos and cars but have to admit that > >> >> those old motors aren't always the best. Some are and some aren't. > >> >> With > >> >> the Globe unit I would seriously consider remotoring it with a newer > >> >> motor. Those gearboxes are some of the better ones made and a new > >> >> motor > >> >> would improve the running. One of the reasons the motor runs hot is > >> >> that the magnets are probably losing their strength so the motor draws > >> >> more current. You could get them remagnetized but I think a new motor > >> >> would be a better choice. > >> >> > >> >> Matt > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, pvande1@ wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > So, would it be considered sacrilegious to repower one of these old > >> >> globe units? I disassembled one last night and was fairly impressed > >> >> with the solid construction of the gear towers and boxes. The motor > >> >> for some reason runs a bit hot, I'm thinking of replacing it with a > >> >> smaller one with a lower running speed. Has anyone had experience > >> >> remotoring one of these? > >> >> > > >> >> > thanks, > >> >> > > >> >> > phil > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6405	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/17/2008
Subject: Kit question......

I have two Westwood passenger car kits coming to me. As hard as they are to get, I sort of jumped at the opportunity . I'm wondering if it's the Pennsylvania cars that are the semi- vestibule kits ??? Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6406	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

The person you're getting them from didn't know?   I'd like to see them when they come.   My latest eBay score was a couple of Walthers 7800 series cars, a 7801 4 compartment observation and a 7815 Pennsy diner, with super detail kits, air conditioners, air duct `kits and extra plastic roofs, for only a few bucks more than they last sold for new!   I'll have pics if I can get my regular computer fixed.  (PING to Mike, I may even get my car back this week, how'd yours turn out?)   Don Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: I have two Westwood passenger car kits coming to me. As hard as they are to get, I sort of jumped at the opportunity . I'm wondering if it's the Pennsylvania cars that are the semi- vestibule kits ??? Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6407	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

Sean Naylor noted: >I love their trucks, but man they are expensive.. $40 or moe for each, especially if it is a tanker.. >I might have 5 trucks all together.. maybe 7.. That got me thinking and made me look in my over-flowing storage closet..and I found, still new/mint in the box, an Ulrich truck with van commemorating the 40th anniversary of Model Railroader 1934-1974. Means I've had it some 34 years. Had it on my table a few years back and glad I did not sell it. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6408	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Kit question......

You need to get the B&O Royal Blue kits. They do have the narrow vestibules Howard Garner.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6409	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

I think the nicest one I have is a Schlit Beer truck. I just purchased..for $10 from England of all places. It was $10 to ship. All in all, a great price for the truck.. All the rest were stragglers in collections and other various lots I have purchased in the past 5 years.   There is one guy currently selling unfinished resin solid bodies/shells on ebay. He has a pretty wide variety of trucks and they look very nice... They are just not vintage...    My wife asked me the other day.. After I told her the next pick-up truck I will purchase will be a mid 60's Chevy fleetside or a mid 50's Ford... "You are so weird!  Why do you only like things that are OLD?"  I am only 37.. I had no answer to that...   Sean --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: From: Ray Hobin <tcol@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 7:44 AM Sean Naylor noted: >I love their trucks, but man they are expensive.. $40 or moe for each, especially if it is a tanker.. >I might have 5 trucks all together.. maybe 7.. That got me thinking and made me look in my over-flowing storage closet..and I found, still new/mint in the box, an Ulrich truck with van commemorating the 40th anniversary of Model Railroader 1934-1974. Means I've had it some 34 years. Had it on my table a few years back and glad I did not sell it. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6410	From: erieberk	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

Ray, Yes, your caboose is a Silver Streak, as has already been establish, but the metal castings (car ends, steps and window frames -- and cupola, if you had one) just add to this identification. Your "low- side hopper" is actually a General Service Gondola. In addition to the Outside-Braced Box cars, Double-Sheathed Box Cars and Stock Cars that Glenn and Don point out, Ulrich also offered a wood Reefer (A.R.T.) which was part of a series of three different kits in their Collector's Series. All of these wood kits are hard to come across; there major offerings were cast (all-metal) kits of various types of gondolas and hopper, in addition to wood (deck) and cast metal flat cars. Their rarest kit is probably their only structure kit, a coal trestle (Coal Yard Kit). Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: > > Thanks for the responses on identifying the 4 models I posted. And, > I'll accept the caboose as being Silver Streak...I did omit the fact the > ends and steps and window frames were castings. Surprised I didn't > think of Silver Streak as I did, many years ago, assemble a few of > them...no cabooses though. > > Not too familiar with Ulrich...believe the only Ulrich car I assembled > was their track cleaning car whose cleaning fluid I never could get to > drip just right. > > Thanks again... > > Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6411	From: erieberk	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

Nice find with those Walthers 7800 series cars (especially coming with super detailing kits); this is the series that came with the more preferred (by the builders/hobbyists) wooden roof rather than the plastic (styrene) roof, which often warped. Needing to get back to the subject of Ulrich, while I noticed your input on their Double-Sheathed Box Cars, I didn't notice your mention of the wood reefer until after I posted; my apologies. This did get me more curious though and in checking back through my catalogs (Walthers), I notice the inclusion of "Division of Wm K Walthers Inc," as found with other lines they took over, is not yet found in Walthers catalogs until 1971 -- any previous catalogs do not include their statement which would lead me to believe the "Cars of the Roaring Twenties" series were originally produced by Ulrich. It is a bit funny though, when reading the statement "Limited Production 'One- Run' Collectors Series." I guess it was an awfully long run! Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Donald Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > The person you're getting them from didn't know? > > I'd like to see them when they come. > > My latest eBay score was a couple of Walthers 7800 series cars, a 7801 4 compartment observation and a 7815 Pennsy diner, with super detail kits, air conditioners, air duct `kits and extra plastic roofs, for only a few bucks more than they last sold for new! > > I'll have pics if I can get my regular computer fixed. (PING to Mike, I may even get my car back this week, how'd yours turn out?) > > Don > > Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > I have two Westwood passenger car kits coming to me. > > As hard as they are to get, I sort of jumped at the opportunity . > > I'm wondering if it's the Pennsylvania cars that are the semi- > vestibule kits ??? > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6412	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

OK, I confess my ignorance here. I seek out Quality Craft Models, Ambroid, Howell Day, Red Ball, and other old high quality wood kits but I'm not familiar with Westwood. There's two on eBay right now, both look good but the photos show no details of the nature of the kits. Of what are they made (wood, metal, plastic or a combination of all), when were they produced, and from where were they originally manufactured? I got the impression from a Google that they were British but I found no history of the company. The two on eBay also have a $15 start price with a Reserve (no bids yet). I don't mind paying a premium for a good complex detailed kit but these better have 24K trim before I start bidding. Fred Stevens K2FRD Prescott, AZ At 10:57 PM -0500 17/6/08, Mike Bauers wrote: >I have two Westwood passenger car kits coming to me. > >As hard as they are to get, I sort of jumped at the opportunity . > >I'm wondering if it's the Pennsylvania cars that are the semi- >vestibule kits ??? > >Best to ya, >Mike Bauers >Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6413	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Rs:Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was:

I have still in the box one of the Van and truck with the logo Campbells Humping to Please on the side of it, never been assembled either, just liked the van. A couple of years after getting it in about '78 I actually saw one on the highway, wish I had a camera. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:44:22 -0400 > > > Sean Naylor noted: > > > I love their trucks, but man they are expensive.. $40 or moe for > > each, especially if it is a tanker.. > > I might have 5 trucks all together.. maybe 7.. > > That got me thinking and made me look in my over-flowing storage > closet..and I found, still new/mint in the box, an Ulrich truck with van > commemorating the 40th anniversary of Model Railroader 1934-1974. Means > I've had it some 34 years. > > Had it on my table a few years back and glad I did not sell it. > > Ray > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6414	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

Off topic but a reply to the wife thing,,My X-wife always said I was weird because I liked Two door cars and Four door trucks,,, but she is an X-Wife, Go Figure. Charlie   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Naylor" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 05:29:05 -0700 (PDT) I think the nicest one I have is a Schlit Beer truck. I just purchased..for $10 from England of all places. It was $10 to ship. All in all, a great price for the truck.. All the rest were stragglers in collections and other various lots I have purchased in the past 5 years.   There is one guy currently selling unfinished resin solid bodies/shells on ebay. He has a pretty wide variety of trucks and they look very nice... They are just not vintage...    My wife asked me the other day.. After I told her the next pick-up truck I will purchase will be a mid 60's Chevy fleetside or a mid 50's Ford... "You are so weird!  Why do you only like things that are OLD?"  I am only 37.. I had no answer to that...   Sean --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: From: Ray Hobin <tcol@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 7:44 AM Sean Naylor noted: >I love their trucks, but man they are expensive.. $40 or moe for each, especially if it is a tanker.. >I might have 5 trucks all together.. maybe 7.. That got me thinking and made me look in my over-flowing storage closet..and I found, still new/mint in the box, an Ulrich truck with van commemorating the 40th anniversary of Model Railroader 1934-1974. Means I've had it some 34 years. Had it on my table a few years back and glad I did not sell it. Ray -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6415	From: erieberk	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich, was -- Mantua

Hi Chuck, Guess you noticed some discussion on Ulrich. While I just assumed that most everyone knew what they are, I keep forgetting how far back they were discontinued and that many of the newer collectors here may not know (or recognize) what they are, as in this recent thread. This should be an easy one to do a spread-sheet on if you'd like to help out again. I was a little hesitant on the Binkley- Laconia, not wanting to trespass on Spanagel's magazine copyright, but I might still do that one yet, with changing a few words around. We don't need to do a history with Ulrich though, even though I could. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, for 35 > cents. The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64. Which would > make the top of the gauge 43/128. Not the easiest of numbers to measure > which maybe why the gauge. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Sean Naylor > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > Well, > > I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have > a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some > time ago.. > > > > I will keep looking though.. > > > > Sean > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM > > I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage. > gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Glenn476 <mailto:glenn476@...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > I don't need any--that's how I replaced some. gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Sean Naylor <mailto:a69mustang4me@...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, > Right? > > > Sean > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net > <mailto:glenn476@...> > wrote: > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476@...> net> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> ps.com > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM > > Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge? It would be cylindrical > metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the > proper coupler height. > > > > If not a spare one, good measurements would do. Outside diameter and > diameter at bottom of grooves. Should be a simple lathe project. > > > > Thanks GJ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6416	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

I might be weird, but I just hope I do not screw up enough that I have to start talking about the all trains and Mustangs I USED to have...   Sean --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Charles Windes <cwindes@...> wrote: From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 12:55 PM Off topic but a reply to the wife thing,,My X-wife always said I was weird because I liked Two door cars and Four door trucks,,, but she is an X-Wife, Go Figure. Charlie   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Naylor" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 05:29:05 -0700 (PDT) I think the nicest one I have is a Schlit Beer truck. I just purchased..for $10 from England of all places. It was $10 to ship. All in all, a great price for the truck.. All the rest were stragglers in collections and other various lots I have purchased in the past 5 years.   There is one guy currently selling unfinished resin solid bodies/shells on ebay. He has a pretty wide variety of trucks and they look very nice... They are just not vintage...    My wife asked me the other day.. After I told her the next pick-up truck I will purchase will be a mid 60's Chevy fleetside or a mid 50's Ford... "You are so weird!  Why do you only like things that are OLD?"  I am only 37.. I had no answer to that...   Sean --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: From: Ray Hobin <tcol@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 7:44 AM Sean Naylor noted: >I love their trucks, but man they are expensive.. $40 or moe for each, especially if it is a tanker.. >I might have 5 trucks all together.. maybe 7.. That got me thinking and made me look in my over-flowing storage closet..and I found, still new/mint in the box, an Ulrich truck with van commemorating the 40th anniversary of Model Railroader 1934-1974. Means I've had it some 34 years. Had it on my table a few years back and glad I did not sell it. Ray -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6417	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: some oldies... off topic

Sean Naylor wrote: I might be weird, but I just hope I do not screw up enough that I have to start talking about the all trains and Mustangs I USED to have... Sean, you think Mustangs are weird? - thats mainstream - beside my trains, I have 14 Corvairs ! Anyone to beat this? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6418	From: trainliker	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

Corvairs? To me, that's mainstream. I have a Studebaker Avanti (one of 4,643 made versus something like over 300,000 for Corvairs). I saw a GM demo Corvair in the dusty basement at the Petersen Museum in L.A. that had a clear deck led so you could see the engine. It even had the louvres in it. Chuck Kinzer --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > Sean Naylor wrote: > > > I might be weird, but I just hope I do not screw up enough that I have > to start talking about the all trains and Mustangs I USED to have... > > Sean, > > you think Mustangs are weird? - thats mainstream - beside my trains, I > have 14 Corvairs ! Anyone to beat this? > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6419	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

trainliker wrote: > Corvairs? To me, that's mainstream. > Not if you live in Vienna, Austria ... > I have a Studebaker Avanti (one of 4,643 made versus something like > over 300,000 for Corvairs). > Chuck, dont want to beat this to death , I have one of approx. 700 1967 Convertibles, and one of approx 500 1964 Pickups -- since I am back into model railroads (twelve years) they rest on blocks in my storage building. Dont have enough time ( read : money) for both hobbies. (required model RR content) 8-) > I saw a GM demo Corvair in the dusty basement at the Petersen Museum > in L.A. that had a clear deck led so you could see the engine. It > even had the louvres in it. > > they did not allow me to enter their basement ... but I got one of those demo engine lids for $100 twenty years ago, it hangs on my garage wall. There were plenty of them, I think every reasonable dealership got one in 1959. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6420	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua

Ray, That would be fine.  Happy to do it. Regards,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua   Hi Chuck, Guess you noticed some discussion on Ulrich. While I just assumed that most everyone knew what they are, I keep forgetting how far back they were discontinued and that many of the newer collectors here may not know (or recognize) what they are, as in this recent thread. This should be an easy one to do a spread-sheet on if you'd like to help out again. I was a little hesitant on the Binkley- Laconia , not wanting to trespass on Spanagel's magazine copyright, but I might still do that one yet, with changing a few words around. We don't need to do a history with Ulrich though, even though I could. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, for 35 > cents. The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64. Which would > make the top of the gauge 43/128. Not the easiest of numbers to measure > which maybe why the gauge. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of Sean Naylor > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > Well, > > I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have > a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some > time ago.. > > > > I will keep looking though.. > > > > Sean > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@.. .> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM > > I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage. > gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Glenn476 <mailto:glenn476@ ...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto: href="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > I don't need any--that's how I replaced some. gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Sean Naylor <mailto:a69mustang4 me@...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto: href="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, > Right? > > > Sean > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net > <mailto:glenn476@ ...> > wrote: > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476@ ...> net> > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto: href="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> ps.com > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM > > Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge? It would be cylindrical > metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the > proper coupler height. > > > > If not a spare one, good measurements would do. Outside diameter and > diameter at bottom of grooves. Should be a simple lathe project. > > > > Thanks GJ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6421	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

Fred, I have a pair of Westwood coaches that I haven't built yet. They are mostly wood, similar to LaBelle, but they also have a lot of plastic castings in the kit. If I remember right, (I haven't looked at the kits for a long time), most of these plastic castings were to build the roofs. Sort of like building the old balsa and tissue model airplanes. The castings are formers onto which the wood is glued. One thing I remember is that the plastic castings will require a lot of cleanup before use. There is lots of flashing around the edges. That's the reason I never built them. Lots of work, and I have too many other projects going. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > > OK, I confess my ignorance here. I seek out Quality Craft Models, Ambroid, Howell Day, Red Ball, and other old high quality wood kits but I'm not familiar with Westwood. There's two on eBay right now, both look good but the photos show no details of the nature of the kits. Of what are they made (wood, metal, plastic or a combination of all), when were they produced, and from where were they originally manufactured? I got the impression from a Google that they were British but I found no history of the company. The two on eBay also have a $15 start price with a Reserve (no bids yet). I don't mind paying a premium for a good complex detailed kit but these better have 24K trim before I start bidding. > > Fred Stevens K2FRD > Prescott, AZ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6422	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

I did ask, But he didn't pass on the info. The kits are untouched so whichever is fine with me. I want to spec the parts more than to build the kits. I just got the car back yesterday. I had a freeze-plug go bad on me. I took it to a great local repair shop and it cost me about as much as one premium tire might. I got a bit freaked when I couldn't start it to drive over to the garage, the battery was just too low from being stuck on the Expressway for 4-hours flashing away without a re-charge on the battery. I must have bought the right charger in the 70's; it still works just fine when needed. I got lucky a couple of ways on that one........ Although I see I really need to join an Auto-Club for the occasional tow. Those tow jobs are kinda expensive today. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 18, 2008, at 6:01 AM, Donald Dellmann wrote: The person you're getting them from didn't know?   I'd like to see them when they come.   My latest eBay score was a couple of Walthers 7800 series cars, a 7801 4 compartment observation and a 7815 Pennsy diner, with super detail kits, air conditioners, air duct `kits and extra plastic roofs, for only a few bucks more than they last sold for new!   I'll have pics if I can get my regular computer fixed.  (PING to Mike, I may even get my car back this week, how'd yours turn out?)   Don Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: I have two Westwood passenger car kits coming to me. As hard as they are to get, I sort of jumped at the opportunity . I'm wondering if it's the Pennsylvania cars that are the semi-  vestibule kits ???

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6423	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

Well....... Dang...... Someday....... In theory, I'll be able to clone my own after several months or so...... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 18, 2008, at 7:11 AM, Howard R Garner wrote: > You need to get the B&O Royal Blue kits. They do have the narrow > vestibules > > Howard Garner.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6424	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum piece. Saw one on a tour at PCR a few years back. ----- Original Message ----- From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > Corvairs? To me, that's mainstream. > > I have a Studebaker Avanti (one of 4,643 made versus something like > over 300,000 for Corvairs). > > I saw a GM demo Corvair in the dusty basement at the Petersen Museum > in L.A. that had a clear deck led so you could see the engine. It > even had the louvres in it. > > Chuck Kinzer > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: >> >> Sean Naylor wrote: >> >> >> I might be weird, but I just hope I do not screw up enough that I > have >> to start talking about the all trains and Mustangs I USED to > have... >> >> Sean, >> >> you think Mustangs are weird? - thats mainstream - beside my > trains, I >> have 14 Corvairs ! Anyone to beat this? >> >> Gerold >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6425	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

They date from about mid-60's, originated from Ohio....... The construction is wooden spars with scribed wood siding individual windows and doors, prototypic ribbed roof construction, and fine plastic castings for all major parts. They sometimes get built with Evergreen styrene strips replacing the wood strips. If they had come to market about five-years later, they would have used Evergreen styrene in place of the wood beams, and be a bit easier to assemble. However, they are -VERY- well designed and assemble with no real problems. Nearly all the parts are very scale, including the roof construction formed ribs. I saw those same kits and was also tempted. They are very worth while getting and building. If you'd like I can scan some similar Westwood instructions/diagrams for you. I have one of the Centennial kits from them. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 18, 2008, at 9:22 AM, Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote: > OK, I confess my ignorance here. I seek out Quality Craft Models, > Ambroid, Howell Day, Red Ball, and other old high quality wood kits > but I'm not familiar with Westwood. There's two on eBay right now, > both look good but the photos show no details of the nature of the > kits. Of what are they made (wood, metal, plastic or a combination > of all), when were they produced, and from where were they > originally manufactured? I got the impression from a Google that > they were British but I found no history of the company. The two on > eBay also have a $15 start price with a Reserve (no bids yet). I > don't mind paying a premium for a good complex detailed kit but > these better have 24K trim before I start bidding. > > Fred Stevens K2FRD > Prescott, AZ > > At 10:57 PM -0500 17/6/08, Mike Bauers wrote: >> I have two Westwood passenger car kits coming to me. >> >> As hard as they are to get, I sort of jumped at the opportunity . >> >> I'm wondering if it's the Pennsylvania cars that are the semi- >> vestibule kits ???

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6426	From: John Barlow	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

Dear Bill,   I sold my Westwood "Royal Blues" a few years back but kept the "Pennsylvania Limited" ones because of my stronger PRR preference. The kits were once said to be as close to the prototypical in construction style as you could get...and agreeably not easy. i have yet to build mine as well. Patience is needed from what I see. The paint scheme...I'd avoid airbrushing and use careful hand brushing to achieve the desired effect...and that "Yellow Kid" scheme of the PRR's for that train will take patience.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> wrote: From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Kit question...... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:48 PM Fred, I have a pair of Westwood coaches that I haven't built yet. They are mostly wood, similar to LaBelle, but they also have a lot of plastic castings in the kit. If I remember right, (I haven't looked at the kits for a long time), most of these plastic castings were to build the roofs. Sort of like building the old balsa and tissue model airplanes. The castings are formers onto which the wood is glued. One thing I remember is that the plastic castings will require a lot of cleanup before use. There is lots of flashing around the edges. That's the reason I never built them. Lots of work, and I have too many other projects going. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > > OK, I confess my ignorance here. I seek out Quality Craft Models, Ambroid, Howell Day, Red Ball, and other old high quality wood kits but I'm not familiar with Westwood. There's two on eBay right now, both look good but the photos show no details of the nature of the kits. Of what are they made (wood, metal, plastic or a combination of all), when were they produced, and from where were they originally manufactured? I got the impression from a Google that they were British but I found no history of the company. The two on eBay also have a $15 start price with a Reserve (no bids yet). I don't mind paying a premium for a good complex detailed kit but these better have 24K trim before I start bidding. > > Fred Stevens K2FRD > Prescott, AZ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6427	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

The kits I've seen were loaded with flash-free parts. I suggest buying them anyway, any flash that might be there will be easy to clean-up. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 18, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Bill DeFoe wrote: > Fred, > > I have a pair of Westwood coaches that I haven't built yet. They are > mostly wood, similar to LaBelle, but they also have a lot of plastic > castings in the kit. If I remember right, (I haven't looked at the > kits for a long time), most of these plastic castings were to build > the roofs. Sort of like building the old balsa and tissue model > airplanes. The castings are formers onto which the wood is glued. > > One thing I remember is that the plastic castings will require a lot > of cleanup before use. There is lots of flashing around the edges. > That's the reason I never built them. Lots of work, and I have too > many other projects going. > > Bill DeFoe > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> > wrote: >> >> OK, I confess my ignorance here. I seek out Quality Craft Models, > Ambroid, Howell Day, Red Ball, and other old high quality wood kits > but I'm not familiar with Westwood. There's two on eBay right now, > both look good but the photos show no details of the nature of the > kits. Of what are they made (wood, metal, plastic or a combination of > all), when were they produced, and from where were they originally > manufactured? I got the impression from a Google that they were > British but I found no history of the company. The two on eBay also > have a $15 start price with a Reserve (no bids yet). I don't mind > paying a premium for a good complex detailed kit but these better > have 24K trim before I start bidding.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6428	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

Is that 1852 Studebaker a one, or two horse hitch? Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 18, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum > piece. Saw > one on a tour at PCR a few years back. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > > >> Corvairs? To me, that's mainstream. >> >> I have a Studebaker Avanti (one of 4,643 made versus something like >> over 300,000 for Corvairs)..........

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6429	From: Don Grant	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

In 1852, Studebaker was making wheelbarrows. Best, Don Grant --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:53 PM ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum piece. Saw one on a tour at PCR a few years back. ----- Original Message ----- From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6430	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

Because cool is cool, whether you are 37 (thou) or 65 (I). John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > I think the nicest one I have is a Schlit Beer truck. I just purchased..for $10 from England of all places. It was $10 to ship. All in all, a great price for the truck.. All the rest were stragglers in collections and other various lots I have purchased in the past 5 years. >   > There is one guy currently selling unfinished resin solid bodies/shells on ebay. He has a pretty wide variety of trucks and they look very nice... They are just not vintage...  >   > My wife asked me the other day.. After I told her the next pick-up truck I will purchase will be a mid 60's Chevy fleetside or a mid 50's Ford... "You are so weird!  Why do you only like things that are OLD?"  I am only 37.. I had no answer to that... >   > Sean > > --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: > > From: Ray Hobin <tcol@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 7:44 AM > > > > > > > Sean Naylor noted: > > >I love their trucks, but man they are expensive.. $40 or moe for each, especially if it is a tanker.. > >I might have 5 trucks all together.. maybe 7.. > > That got me thinking and made me look in my over-flowing storage > closet..and I found, still new/mint in the box, an Ulrich truck with van > commemorating the 40th anniversary of Model Railroader 1934-1974. Means > I've had it some 34 years. > > Had it on my table a few years back and glad I did not sell it. > > Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6431	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

Gotcha!!None! Mr. Studebaker got his start in Sacramento during the Gold Rush. One of the smart ones, who found a way to mine gold from the other miners, legally. Studebaker began manufacturing one of the most important vehicles of the time--the Wheel Barrow!. One wheel. No miner could really get along without one. He later started adding wheels, and eventually an engine, when one was invented. An early one is in a museum near the Calif. State RR Museum in Sacramento,. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > Is that 1852 Studebaker a one, or two horse hitch? > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Jun 18, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > >> ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum >> piece. Saw >> one on a tour at PCR a few years back. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic >> >> >>> Corvairs? To me, that's mainstream. >>> >>> I have a Studebaker Avanti (one of 4,643 made versus something like >>> over 300,000 for Corvairs).......... > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6432	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

2 door cars just about always cool, 4 door trucks are cool....if they still have an 8 foot box. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > > Off topic but a reply to the wife thing,,My X-wife always said I was > weird because I liked Two door cars and Four door trucks,,, but she is an > X-Wife, Go Figure.Charlie >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6433	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

I used the plastic roofs, I took the two wood roofs and put them my two 7600 series cars (a single window coach and a 12 section pullman) since they had the original lower roofs.  (and I don't glue my roofs on, so if a "collector" wanted blueprint originals I could swap them back).    When the 7800's came out in 1959 you could order them with older roof if you had a lot of 7600's, or the ew roof if you had JC cars so everything would match.   Don   erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Nice find with those Walthers 7800 series cars (especially coming with super detailing kits); this is the series that came with the more preferred (by the builders/hobbyists) wooden roof rather than the plastic (styrene) roof, which often warped. Needing to get back to the subject of Ulrich, while I noticed your input on their Double-Sheathed Box Cars, I didn't notice your mention of the wood reefer until after I posted; my apologies. This did get me more curious though and in checking back through my catalogs (Walthers), I notice the inclusion of "Division of Wm K Walthers Inc," as found with other lines they took over, is not yet found in Walthers catalogs until 1971 -- any previous catalogs do not include their statement which would lead me to believe the "Cars of the Roaring Twenties" series were originally produced by Ulrich. It is a bit funny though, when reading the statement "Limited Production 'One- Run' Collectors Series." I guess it was an awfully long run! Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Donald Dellmann wrote: > > The person you're getting them from didn't know? > > I'd like to see them when they come. > > My latest eBay score was a couple of Walthers 7800 series cars, a 7801 4 compartment observation and a 7815 Pennsy diner, with super detail kits, air conditioners, air duct `kits and extra plastic roofs, for only a few bucks more than they last sold for new! > > I'll have pics if I can get my regular computer fixed. (PING to Mike, I may even get my car back this week, how'd yours turn out?) > > Don > > Mike Bauers wrote: > I have two Westwood passenger car kits coming to me. > > As hard as they are to get, I sort of jumped at the opportunity . > > I'm wondering if it's the Pennsylvania cars that are the semi- > vestibule kits ??? > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6434	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

To this day I kick myself for not buying ten years ago a '61 or '62 Stude pickup I saw that I actually could afford, it had the "Lark" style cab.  Now THAT you don't see every day.   Don John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: Because cool is cool, whether you are 37 (thou) or 65 (I). John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor wrote: > > I think the nicest one I have is a Schlit Beer truck. I just purchased..for $10 from England of all places. It was $10 to ship. All in all, a great price for the truck.. All the rest were stragglers in collections and other various lots I have purchased in the past 5 years. >   > There is one guy currently selling unfinished resin solid bodies/shells on ebay. He has a pretty wide variety of trucks and they look very nice... They are just not vintage...  >   > My wife asked me the other day.. After I told her the next pick-up truck I will purchase will be a mid 60's Chevy fleetside or a mid 50's Ford... "You are so weird!  Why do you only like things that are OLD?"  I am only 37.. I had no answer to that... >   > Sean > > --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Ray Hobin wrote: > > From: Ray Hobin > Subject: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 7:44 AM > > > > > > > Sean Naylor noted: > > >I love their trucks, but man they are expensive.. $40 or moe for each, especially if it is a tanker.. > >I might have 5 trucks all together.. maybe 7.. > > That got me thinking and made me look in my over-flowing storage > closet..and I found, still new/mint in the box, an Ulrich truck with van > commemorating the 40th anniversary of Model Railroader 1934-1974. Means > I've had it some 34 years. > > Had it on my table a few years back and glad I did not sell it. > > Ray > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6435	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

I didn't think anyone would get that--as I said in my other response, he was one of the smart ones who "mined the other miners" with the things and services they needed. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Grant To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic In 1852, Studebaker was making wheelbarrows. Best, Don Grant --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:53 PM ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum piece. Saw one on a tour at PCR a few years back. ----- Original Message ----- From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6436	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

I beg to differ on one point.  Ulrich also introduced the "expandable building" kits ca. 1960 or so.  Their factory and hotel were later offered by train miniature, and today are the Life Like "Mount Vernon Manufacturing" and "Belvedere Downtown Hotel" kits.   Don erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Ray, Yes, your caboose is a Silver Streak, as has already been establish, but the metal castings (car ends, steps and window frames -- and cupola, if you had one) just add to this identification. Your "low- side hopper" is actually a General Service Gondola. In addition to the Outside-Braced Box cars, Double-Sheathed Box Cars and Stock Cars that Glenn and Don point out, Ulrich also offered a wood Reefer (A.R.T.) which was part of a series of three different kits in their Collector's Series. All of these wood kits are hard to come across; there major offerings were cast (all-metal) kits of various types of gondolas and hopper, in addition to wood (deck) and cast metal flat cars. Their rarest kit is probably their only structure kit, a coal trestle (Coal Yard Kit). Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin wrote: > > Thanks for the responses on identifying the 4 models I posted. And, > I'll accept the caboose as being Silver Streak...I did omit the fact the > ends and steps and window frames were castings. Surprised I didn't > think of Silver Streak as I did, many years ago, assemble a few of > them...no cabooses though. > > Not too familiar with Ulrich...believe the only Ulrich car I assembled > was their track cleaning car whose cleaning fluid I never could get to > drip just right. > > Thanks again... > > Ray > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6437	From: Donald Dellmann	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

Him and Levi Strauss.   Don Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: I didn't think anyone would get that--as I said in my other response, he was one of the smart ones who "mined the other miners" with the things and services they needed. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Grant To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic In 1852, Studebaker was making wheelbarrows. Best, Don Grant --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:53 PM ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum piece. Saw one on a tour at PCR a few years back. ----- Original Message ----- From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6438	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

Maybe a partial "gotcha:. That was John, who returned home to South Bend, IN. in 1858 to join brothers Henry and Clem. They were the ones that set up a blacksmith business in South Bend in 1852. Their first years work included three wagons, of which the first Conestoga wagon was on. By looking at the photo in "Studebaker Cars" by James Moloney, the Conestoga wagon appears to be a two horse power unit. BTW, James actually bought out Henry's interest in the business and became the "Manager of Production" John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Gotcha!!None! Mr. Studebaker got his start in Sacramento during the Gold > Rush. One of the smart ones, who found a way to mine gold from the other > miners, legally. Studebaker began manufacturing one of the most important > vehicles of the time--the Wheel Barrow!. One wheel. No miner could really > get along without one. He later started adding wheels, and eventually an > engine, when one was invented. An early one is in a museum near the Calif. > State RR Museum in Sacramento,. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > > > > Is that 1852 Studebaker a one, or two horse hitch? > > > > Best to ya, > > Mike Bauers > > Milwaukee, Wi > > > > On Jun 18, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > > > >> ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum > >> piece. Saw > >> one on a tour at PCR a few years back. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > >> > >> > >>> Corvairs? To me, that's mainstream. > >>> > >>> I have a Studebaker Avanti (one of 4,643 made versus something like > >>> over 300,000 for Corvairs).......... > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6439	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/18/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

The reason John was named "Manager of Production" was his knowledge og what people wanted and needed due to his extensive travels. So, yes he did "mine the other miners", so-to-speak. But that was a short- lived business and not the start of Studebaker as we know it. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I didn't think anyone would get that--as I said in my other response, he was one of the smart ones who "mined the other miners" with the things and services they needed. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Grant > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:29 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > > > In 1852, Studebaker was making wheelbarrows. > > Best, > > Don Grant > > --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:53 PM > > > ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum piece. Saw > one on a tour at PCR a few years back. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6440	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

I have been in love with the look of the 69 Mustang ever since I was 16 and found one in the field at the end of my paper route. The farmer had two there, a flat black 70 coupe and a light metalic green 69 fastback (missing the whole front clip). The farmer offered them to me for $150 for both. When I went home and asked my father, he said no.. I did not know it at the time but it turns out, the 69 was a Shelby GT 500. Fully restored, it would have paid my college education and paid for my first house. Oh well...   Sean --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Donald Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: From: Donald Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 10:34 PM To this day I kick myself for not buying ten years ago a '61 or '62 Stude pickup I saw that I actually could afford, it had the "Lark" style cab.  Now THAT you don't see every day.   Don John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> wrote: Because cool is cool, whether you are 37 (thou) or 65 (I). John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor wrote: > > I think the nicest one I have is a Schlit Beer truck. I just purchased..for $10 from England of all places. It was $10 to ship. All in all, a great price for the truck.. All the rest were stragglers in collections and other various lots I have purchased in the past 5 years. >   > There is one guy currently selling unfinished resin solid bodies/shells on ebay. He has a pretty wide variety of trucks and they look very nice... They are just not vintage...  >   > My wife asked me the other day.. After I told her the next pick-up truck I will purchase will be a mid 60's Chevy fleetside or a mid 50's Ford... "You are so weird!  Why do you only like things that are OLD?"  I am only 37.. I had no answer to that... >   > Sean > > --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Ray Hobin wrote: > > From: Ray Hobin > Subject: [vintageHO] Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 7:44 AM > > > > > > > Sean Naylor noted: > > >I love their trucks, but man they are expensive.. $40 or moe for each, especially if it is a tanker.. > >I might have 5 trucks all together.. maybe 7.. > > That got me thinking and made me look in my over-flowing storage > closet..and I found, still new/mint in the box, an Ulrich truck with van > commemorating the 40th anniversary of Model Railroader 1934-1974. Means > I've had it some 34 years. > > Had it on my table a few years back and glad I did not sell it. > > Ray > ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO- digest@yahoogrou ps.com mailto:vintageHO- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6441	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: ID some oldies...

Thanks for pointing that out, Don. I'm not ashamed to admit that I was not aware of Ulrich's building kits, although I probably ran across their ads for them in MR and RMC back when. This shows that you just can't know everything as much as you might try to, and while I do have some Ulrich catalogs, none have a mention of these items. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Donald Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I beg to differ on one point. Ulrich also introduced the "expandable building" kits ca. 1960 or so. Their factory and hotel were later offered by train miniature, and today are the Life Like "Mount Vernon Manufacturing" and "Belvedere Downtown Hotel" kits. > > Don > > erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: > Ray, Yes, your caboose is a Silver Streak, as has already been > establish, but the metal castings (car ends, steps and window frames -- > and cupola, if you had one) just add to this identification. Your "low- > side hopper" is actually a General Service Gondola. > > In addition to the Outside-Braced Box cars, Double-Sheathed Box Cars > and Stock Cars that Glenn and Don point out, Ulrich also offered a wood > Reefer (A.R.T.) which was part of a series of three different kits in > their Collector's Series. All of these wood kits are hard to come > across; there major offerings were cast (all-metal) kits of various > types of gondolas and hopper, in addition to wood (deck) and cast metal > flat cars. Their rarest kit is probably their only structure kit, a > coal trestle (Coal Yard Kit). Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin wrote: > > > > Thanks for the responses on identifying the 4 models I posted. And, > > I'll accept the caboose as being Silver Streak...I did omit the fact > the > > ends and steps and window frames were castings. Surprised I didn't > > think of Silver Streak as I did, many years ago, assemble a few of > > them...no cabooses though. > > > > Not too familiar with Ulrich...believe the only Ulrich car I assembled > > was their track cleaning car whose cleaning fluid I never could get to > > drip just right. > > > > Thanks again... > > > > Ray > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6442	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua

Chuck, Looks like a good sized layout you've got there. I can see you put in a fair amount of trackwork. I'll have to go back up there again as soon as I get a chance, and scout out the rest. Okay, lets give this a shot with Ulrich. As Don already brought up, I missed the building structures -- just did not know (or remember?) about them. So, I'll say this right up front -- any and all additions and/or corrections are welcome. I am missing some car numbers for now as even though I may have them in my collection, they're buried too deep at the moment to try to retrieve them. Will get them to you as I can. For now, lets start with the original Ulrich, and I'll send it in pieces as before. Kit 100 -- Target Signal (operating), Single Head, 3-Color Kit 105 -- Track Cleaning Car (undec) Grey Freight Cars Kit No. Car Type Model No. Roadname Car Number Color Kit 106 Composite Gondola 52' GG-1 ATSF 169875 Box Car Red GG-2 PRR 342750 Box Car Red GG-3 CRI&P 1207 Box Car Red GG-4 N&W 70692 Box Car Red GG-5 LV 32732 Box Car Red GG-6 NYC 7113997 Box Car Red GG-7 GTW 145000 Box Car Red GG-8 CNJ Black Kit 107 Straight Side (Ribbed) 32' Hopper, Peaked End SHP-1 N&W Black Kit 108 Outside Braced Box Car 40' OB-1 ATSF 124127 Tuscan OB-2 SP 15379, 15670 Tuscan OB-3 PM Tuscan OB-4 M&StL Green OB-5 B&M Tuscan OB-6 BAR 61175 Tuscan OB-7 ERIE 84284 Tuscan OB-8 D&RGW 66910 Tuscan OB-9 L & A 10102 Tuscan OB-10 GN Tuscan OB-11 D&H 17547 Tuscan OB-12 SAL Tuscan More to come --- Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > That would be fine. Happy to do it. > > Regards, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:05 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua > > > > Hi Chuck, Guess you noticed some discussion on Ulrich. While I just > assumed that most everyone knew what they are, I keep forgetting how > far back they were discontinued and that many of the newer collectors > here may not know (or recognize) what they are, as in this recent > thread. This should be an easy one to do a spread-sheet on if you'd > like to help out again. I was a little hesitant on the Binkley- > Laconia, not wanting to trespass on Spanagel's magazine copyright, > but I might still do that one yet, with changing a few words around. > We don't need to do a history with Ulrich though, even though I > could. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, > for 35 > > cents. The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64. > Which would > > make the top of the gauge 43/128. Not the easiest of numbers to > measure > > which maybe why the gauge. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of Sean Naylor > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Well, > > > > I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking > place... I have > > a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old > couplers some > > time ago.. > > > > > > > > I will keep looking though.. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM > > > > I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the > Mantua gage. > > gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Glenn476 <mailto:glenn476@> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > I don't need any--that's how I replaced some. gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Sean Naylor <mailto:a69mustang4me@> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > > > > > I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop > type, > > Right? > > > > > > Sean > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net > > <mailto:glenn476@> > wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476@> net> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge? It would be > cylindrical > > metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter > would be the > > proper coupler height. > > > > > > > > If not a spare one, good measurements would do. Outside diameter > and > > diameter at bottom of grooves. Should be a simple lathe project. > > > > > > > > Thanks GJ > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6443	From: Lacera Anne	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: instructions

I am looking for the instruction pages for Campbell's Quincy Enginehouse kit#401. Would anyone have a set they would copy and send to me? Would be greatly appreciated. TIA. Lacey

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6444	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua

Well, after taking a look at what I sent, and how it turned out, \I can see you're going to have problems trying to figure it out as nothing is staying in the columns I've designated it to be in. It all runs in, flush left or carries down to make another line, as the colors are doing. I'll continue with it, hoping for the best and then I'll check out what you came up with. In the Kit 106 Composite Gondola I missed the GG-8 CNJ side number -- 86721. Let's give it another shot: Kit No. Car Type Kit 109 Straight Side (Ribbed) 32' Hopper, Flat End . Model No. Road Name Car No. Color . SH-1 RDG 80530 Black . SH-2 LV 25015 B/C Red . SH-3 WM 13623 Black or Oxide Red . SH-4 PRR 220303 B/C Red . SH-5 N&W 22035, 22050 Black . SH-6 CCC&StL B/C Red . SH-7 D&H 5737 . SH-8 CB&Q 192500, 192502 . Kit 110 Modern Flat Car 40' . SF-1 SP 4301 . SF-2 T & P . SF-3 CP . SF-4 NC&StL 70229 . SF-5 SOO 4752 . SF-6 StLSW . Kit 111 Outside Braced Cattle Car 40' . SC-1 ACL 140440 . SC-2 PRR/CMStP&O 128079 . SC-3 C&NW 22877 . Kit 112 Truss Rod Flat Car 40' . TR-1 SP 43015 . TR-2 T & P . TR-3 CP . TR-4 NC&StL . TR-5 SOO 4752 . TR-6 StLSW . Alright, let's go to another page, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > That would be fine. Happy to do it. > > Regards, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:05 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua > > > > Hi Chuck, Guess you noticed some discussion on Ulrich. While I just > assumed that most everyone knew what they are, I keep forgetting how > far back they were discontinued and that many of the newer collectors > here may not know (or recognize) what they are, as in this recent > thread. This should be an easy one to do a spread-sheet on if you'd > like to help out again. I was a little hesitant on the Binkley- > Laconia, not wanting to trespass on Spanagel's magazine copyright, > but I might still do that one yet, with changing a few words around. > We don't need to do a history with Ulrich though, even though I > could. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, > for 35 > > cents. The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64. > Which would > > make the top of the gauge 43/128. Not the easiest of numbers to > measure > > which maybe why the gauge. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of Sean Naylor > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Well, > > > > I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking > place... I have > > a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old > couplers some > > time ago.. > > > > > > > > I will keep looking though.. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM > > > > I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the > Mantua gage. > > gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Glenn476 <mailto:glenn476@> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > I don't need any--that's how I replaced some. gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Sean Naylor <mailto:a69mustang4me@> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > > > > > I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop > type, > > Right? > > > > > > Sean > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net > > <mailto:glenn476@> > wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476@> net> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge? It would be > cylindrical > > metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter > would be the > > proper coupler height. > > > > > > > > If not a spare one, good measurements would do. Outside diameter > and > > diameter at bottom of grooves. Should be a simple lathe project. > > > > > > > > Thanks GJ > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6445	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, Listing, pg .3

At least that last page stayed in line. Those Ribbed Side Hoppers (Kit 107 and Kit 109) should read -- Twin -- hopper, if you can fit it. Let's try some more: Kit No. Car Type Kit 113 Offset Side Twin Hopper 32', Flat or Peaked End . Model No. Road Name Car No. Color . OH-1 ATSF 180874 Red . OH-2 B&O 637343 Black . OH-3 ERIE 27605 Black . OH-4 CRI&P peaked 89502 Red . OH-5 SLSF peaked 90883 Red . OH-6 NYC 867399 Red . OH-7 MILW 94578 Red . OH-8 L&N peaked 670838 Red . OH-9 MP 58671 Black . Kit 114 Double-Sheathed Wood Box Car 40' . WB-1 T&P Tuscan . WB-2 DL&W 46933 Tuscan . WB-3 C&O 12633 TRuscan . Kit 115 General Service Gondola 52' . GS-1 SP 91976 Red . GS-2 UP 63109 Red . GS-3 M&StL Green or Black . GS-4 GN flat end 76790 Red . " GN peaked 75890 Red . GS-5 UCR Utah Coal Route Black . GS-6 Soo 8205 Black . GS-7 D&RGW 46593 Black . GS-8 NJZ (Zinc) 259 Black . GS_9 C&S . That will do for this page, before it gets too long. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > That would be fine. Happy to do it. > > Regards, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:05 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua > > > > Hi Chuck, Guess you noticed some discussion on Ulrich. While I just > assumed that most everyone knew what they are, I keep forgetting how > far back they were discontinued and that many of the newer collectors > here may not know (or recognize) what they are, as in this recent > thread. This should be an easy one to do a spread-sheet on if you'd > like to help out again. I was a little hesitant on the Binkley- > Laconia, not wanting to trespass on Spanagel's magazine copyright, > but I might still do that one yet, with changing a few words around. > We don't need to do a history with Ulrich though, even though I > could. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, > for 35 > > cents. The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64. > Which would > > make the top of the gauge 43/128. Not the easiest of numbers to > measure > > which maybe why the gauge. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of Sean Naylor > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Well, > > > > I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking > place... I have > > a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old > couplers some > > time ago.. > > > > > > > > I will keep looking though.. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM > > > > I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the > Mantua gage. > > gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Glenn476 <mailto:glenn476@> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > I don't need any--that's how I replaced some. gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Sean Naylor <mailto:a69mustang4me@> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > > > > > I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop > type, > > Right? > > > > > > Sean > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net > > <mailto:glenn476@> > wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476@> net> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge? It would be > cylindrical > > metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter > would be the > > proper coupler height. > > > > > > > > If not a spare one, good measurements would do. Outside diameter > and > > diameter at bottom of grooves. Should be a simple lathe project. > > > > > > > > Thanks GJ > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6446	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

Mike and Bill, many thanks for the information on Westwood. Highly detailed complex kits are my forte these days. For the first time in all my years of life and model railroading (since early 1950s), I've got the time, resources, patience, and motivation to construct these old kits (I am not a ready-to-roll persons). I also do a lot of kitbashing and make modifications to fit my NYO&W layout so cleaning up metal or plastic flashing is no problem, comes with the turf, is almost expected. Sounds like these two would fit my needs quite nicely. Only problem is that the seller doesn't accept PayPal which is my preference because they seller ships several days faster. This is balanced by the seller's location in Scottsdale, AZ which is only a couple hours away from my location in Prescott, AZ where I am stuck at an RV campground for the summer while undergoing a second summer of cancer radiation treatment (Agent Orange stuff - I'm only 62). The more I think about it, the more I think I'll get the bidding going (I usually snipe rather than open bidding). Thanks! Fred Stevens Prescott, AZ (ne Salome, AZ ne Sidney, NY) At 7:27 PM -0500 18/6/08, Mike Bauers wrote: >The kits I've seen were loaded with flash-free parts. > >I suggest buying them anyway, any flash that might be there will be >easy to clean-up. > >Best to ya, >Mike Bauers >Milwaukee, Wi > >On Jun 18, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Bill DeFoe wrote: > >> Fred, >> >> I have a pair of Westwood coaches that I haven't built yet. They are >> mostly wood, similar to LaBelle, but they also have a lot of plastic >> castings in the kit. If I remember right, (I haven't looked at the >> kits for a long time), most of these plastic castings were to build >> the roofs. Sort of like building the old balsa and tissue model >> airplanes. The castings are formers onto which the wood is glued. >> >> One thing I remember is that the plastic castings will require a lot >> of cleanup before use. There is lots of flashing around the edges. >> That's the reason I never built them. Lots of work, and I have too >> many other projects going. >> > > Bill DeFoe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6447	From: erieberk	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua

Chuck, I'll finish the freight cars up here, and go on to the trailer trucks, etc, later. Kit No. Car Type . Offset Side Triple Hopper 40' . Model No. Road Name Car No. Color . TH-1 SP Red . TH-2 C&O Black . TH-3 ATSF 76590 Red . TH-4 B&O 435340 Black . TH-5 SAL Red . TH-6 M&StL Black . TH-7 ERIE 38756 Black . TH_8 NYC 904369 Red . TH-9 B&LE 62004 Black . TH-10 N&W 101352 Black . C&NW Red . Cars of the Roaring Twenties (Collector Series) . Wood Sheathed Reefer RT-1 A.R.T. 11990 Yellow . Outside Braced Boxcar RT-2 FRISCO 126887 B/C Red . General Service Gon RT-3 EREX Enterprise 205 Red . Let's try this for now. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > That would be fine. Happy to do it. > > Regards, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:05 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua > > > > Hi Chuck, Guess you noticed some discussion on Ulrich. While I just > assumed that most everyone knew what they are, I keep forgetting how > far back they were discontinued and that many of the newer collectors > here may not know (or recognize) what they are, as in this recent > thread. This should be an easy one to do a spread-sheet on if you'd > like to help out again. I was a little hesitant on the Binkley- > Laconia, not wanting to trespass on Spanagel's magazine copyright, > but I might still do that one yet, with changing a few words around. > We don't need to do a history with Ulrich though, even though I > could. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, > for 35 > > cents. The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64. > Which would > > make the top of the gauge 43/128. Not the easiest of numbers to > measure > > which maybe why the gauge. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of Sean Naylor > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Well, > > > > I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking > place... I have > > a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old > couplers some > > time ago.. > > > > > > > > I will keep looking though.. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM > > > > I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the > Mantua gage. > > gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Glenn476 <mailto:glenn476@> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > I don't need any--that's how I replaced some. gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Sean Naylor <mailto:a69mustang4me@> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > > > > > I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop > type, > > Right? > > > > > > Sean > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net > > <mailto:glenn476@> > wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476@> net> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge? It would be > cylindrical > > metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter > would be the > > proper coupler height. > > > > > > > > If not a spare one, good measurements would do. Outside diameter > and > > diameter at bottom of grooves. Should be a simple lathe project. > > > > > > > > Thanks GJ > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6448	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

Had two Corvairs and until recently had a lot of catalogs and stuff from Clarks Corvair, but alas all things must pass into that great twilight. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] some oldies... off topic > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:37:38 +0200 > > > Sean Naylor wrote: > > > I might be weird, but I just hope I do not screw up enough that I have > to start talking about the all trains and Mustangs I USED to have... > > Sean, > > you think Mustangs are weird? - thats mainstream - beside my trains, I > have 14 Corvairs ! Anyone to beat this? > > Gerold > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6449	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

Also had a 1950 Starlight Coupe from Studebaker,, sob, sob, miss it badly too. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: trainliker <ckinzer@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:02:10 -0000 > > > Corvairs? To me, that's mainstream. > > I have a Studebaker Avanti (one of 4,643 made versus something like > over 300,000 for Corvairs). > > I saw a GM demo Corvair in the dusty basement at the Petersen Museum > in L.A. that had a clear deck led so you could see the engine. It > even had the louvres in it. > > Chuck Kinzer > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > > Sean Naylor wrote: > > > > > > I might be weird, but I just hope I do not screw up enough that I > have > > to start talking about the all trains and Mustangs I USED to > have... > > > > Sean, > > > > you think Mustangs are weird? - thats mainstream - beside my > trains, I > > have 14 Corvairs ! Anyone to beat this? > > > > Gerold > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6450	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

Now your just showing off talking about the Studebaker Bros. Wagons they made before they started producing Automobiles.(wish I could see one though) CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:53:25 -0700 > > > ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum piece. Saw > one on a tour at PCR a few years back. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > > > > Corvairs? To me, that's mainstream. > > > > I have a Studebaker Avanti (one of 4,643 made versus something like > > over 300,000 for Corvairs). > > > > I saw a GM demo Corvair in the dusty basement at the Petersen Museum > > in L.A. that had a clear deck led so you could see the engine. It > > even had the louvres in it. > > > > Chuck Kinzer > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > >> > >> Sean Naylor wrote: > >> > >> > >> I might be weird, but I just hope I do not screw up enough that I > > have > >> to start talking about the all trains and Mustangs I USED to > > have... > >> > >> Sean, > >> > >> you think Mustangs are weird? - thats mainstream - beside my > > trains, I > >> have 14 Corvairs ! Anyone to beat this? > >> > >> Gerold > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6451	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: Kit question......

Go for it Fred. Those are great kits that deserve getting a home where they will be well appreciated. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 19, 2008, at 9:08 AM, Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote: > Mike and Bill, many thanks for the information on Westwood. Highly > detailed complex kits are my forte these days. For the first time in > all my years of life and model railroading (since early 1950s), I've > got the time, resources, patience, and motivation to construct these > old kits (I am not a ready-to-roll persons). I also do a lot of > kitbashing and make modifications to fit my NYO&W layout so cleaning > up metal or plastic flashing is no problem, comes with the turf, is > almost expected. Sounds like these two would fit my needs quite > nicely. Only problem is that the seller doesn't accept PayPal which > is my preference because they seller ships several days faster. This > is balanced by the seller's location in Scottsdale, AZ which is only > a couple hours away from my location in Prescott, AZ where I am > stuck at an RV campground for the summer while undergoing a second > summer of cancer radiation treatment (Agent Orange stuff - I'm only > 62). The more I think about it, the more I think I'll get the > bidding going (I usually snipe rather than open bidding). > > Thanks! > > Fred Stevens > Prescott, AZ (ne Salome, AZ ne Sidney, NY) > > At 7:27 PM -0500 18/6/08, Mike Bauers wrote: >> The kits I've seen were loaded with flash-free parts. >> >> I suggest buying them anyway, any flash that might be there will be >> easy to clean-up. >> >> On Jun 18, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Bill DeFoe wrote: >> >>> Fred, >>> >>> I have a pair of Westwood coaches that I haven't built yet. They >>> are >>> mostly wood, similar to LaBelle, but they also have a lot of plastic >>> castings in the kit. ............

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6452	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Ulrich cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Ulrich cars and models You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Ulrich%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6453	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/19/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich, was -- Mantua

Ray, I have loaded the first three and posted the file.  I of course switched the color and car number columns so they are the same as the other files.  I load this one shortly. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:19 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua   Chuck, I'll finish the freight cars up here, and go on to the trailer trucks, etc, later. Kit No. Car Type . Offset Side Triple Hopper 40' . Model No. Road Name Car No. Color . TH-1 SP Red . TH-2 C&O Black . TH-3 ATSF 76590 Red . TH-4 B&O 435340 Black . TH-5 SAL Red . TH-6 M&StL Black . TH-7 ERIE 38756 Black . TH_8 NYC 904369 Red . TH-9 B&LE 62004 Black . TH-10 N&W 101352 Black . C&NW Red . Cars of the Roaring Twenties (Collector Series) . Wood Sheathed Reefer RT-1 A.R.T. 11990 Yellow . Outside Braced Boxcar RT-2 FRISCO 126887 B/C Red . General Service Gon RT-3 EREX Enterprise 205 Red . Let's try this for now. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Ray, > > That would be fine. Happy to do it. > > Regards, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:05 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- w:st="on">Mantua > > > > Hi Chuck, Guess you noticed some discussion on Ulrich. While I just > assumed that most everyone knew what they are, I keep forgetting how > far back they were discontinued and that many of the newer collectors > here may not know (or recognize) what they are, as in this recent > thread. This should be an easy one to do a spread-sheet on if you'd > like to help out again. I was a little hesitant on the Binkley- > Laconia , not wanting to trespass on Spanagel's magazine copyright, > but I might still do that one yet, with changing a few words around. > We don't need to do a history with Ulrich though, even though I > could. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, > for 35 > > cents. The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64. > Which would > > make the top of the gauge 43/128. Not the easiest of numbers to > measure > > which maybe why the gauge. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. < href="http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104">http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104> > webshots.com/ user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of Sean Naylor > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Well, > > > > I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking > place... I have > > a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old > couplers some > > time ago.. > > > > > > > > I will keep looking though.. > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM > > > > I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the > Mantua gage. > > gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Glenn476 <mailto:glenn476@ > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > I don't need any--that's how I replaced some. gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Sean Naylor <mailto:a69mustang4 me@> > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > > > > > I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop > type, > > Right? > > > > > > Sean > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net > > <mailto:glenn476@ > > wrote: > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476@ > net> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou > <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com> ps.com > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge? It would be > cylindrical > > metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter > would be the > > proper coupler height. > > > > > > > > If not a spare one, good measurements would do. Outside diameter > and > > diameter at bottom of grooves. Should be a simple lathe project. > > > > > > > > Thanks GJ > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6454	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

Charles Windes wrote: > Had two Corvairs and until recently had a lot of catalogs and stuff from Clarks Corvair, but alas all things must pass into that great twilight. > Charlie > Hi Charlie, I was in Corvairs for twenty years ... Clarks is a great , old fashioned company which enables Corvair owners to still drive their cars every day as virtually everything is available. Had to mothball all my cars ... fortunately they are in safe & dry storage but I wonder if I ever will drive one of them again. But, when I tinkered with Corvairs , my trains were mothballed ... so maybe the pendulum will swing back again? ( Not likely) Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6455	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

Sean Naylor wrote: > I have been in love with the look of the 69 Mustang ever since I was > 16 and found one in the field at the end of my paper route. The farmer > had two there, a flat black 70 coupe and a light metalic green 69 > fastback (missing the whole front clip). The farmer offered them to me > for $150 for both. When I went home and asked my father, he said no.. > I did not know it at the time but it turns out, the 69 was a Shelby GT > 500. Fully restored, it would have paid my college education and paid > for my first house. Oh well... > > Sean > Hi Sean, I bought a 69 GT500 in 1980 or so for a friend for $5000 ( I did not have the cash or I would have bought it myself) and drove it to his garage where it rested for twnety years.... then when he ran out of space and money, I arranged for sale to another friend for $20.000 and again, I did not have the $20.000 ... , this time I did not drive it but had to haul it on my trailer... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6456	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

um.... Hi Gerold   I'd love to be in that friends-circle..   $20,000, that was a bargan, however I bet he (your other friend) woould not let it go for less than full price.. Fully restored, they sell for $150,000 and in original matching numbers can go as high as $250,000... I assume his needs to be restored..Let me know when he wants to sell it... I'll be right over...  Don't know how I wiould pay for it now, but I'll figure it out..   Sean --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] OT-Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 20, 2008, 5:09 AM Sean Naylor wrote: > I have been in love with the look of the 69 Mustang ever since I was > 16 and found one in the field at the end of my paper route. The farmer > had two there, a flat black 70 coupe and a light metalic green 69 > fastback (missing the whole front clip). The farmer offered them to me > for $150 for both. When I went home and asked my father, he said no.. > I did not know it at the time but it turns out, the 69 was a Shelby GT > 500. Fully restored, it would have paid my college education and paid > for my first house. Oh well... > > Sean > Hi Sean, I bought a 69 GT500 in 1980 or so for a friend for $5000 ( I did not have the cash or I would have bought it myself) and drove it to his garage where it rested for twnety years.... then when he ran out of space and money, I arranged for sale to another friend for $20.000 and again, I did not have the $20.000 ... , this time I did not drive it but had to haul it on my trailer... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6457	From: erieberk	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich List

Chuck, Was out last night and haven't had the chance yet to view your files postings; will get to that next. For now, I just wanted to fill you in on the missing colors of some of the cars. I should have had my notes more complete when I first sent you the listings. Took a bit more researching than I first figured on, but it was fun. Anyway, here are all the rest of the colors we'll need for these kits. In Kit 109: Straight-Side (Ribbed) Twin Hopper -- . SH-7 D&H -- Black, SH-8 CB&Q -- Red . In Kit 110: Modern Flat Car -- . SF-1 SP -- Red, SF-2 T & P -- Black, SF-3 CP -- Black, SF-4 NC&StL -- Black, SF-5 SOO -- Black, SF-6 SLSW -- Black . In Kit 111: Outside-Braced Cattle Car -- . SC-1 ACL -- Red, SC-2 PRR/CMStP&O -- Red, SC-3 C&NW -- Red . In Kit 112: Truss-Rod Flat Car -- . TR-1 SP -- Red, TR-2 T & P -- Black, TR-3 CP -- Black, TR-4 NC&StL -- Black, TR-5 SOO -- Black, TR-6 SLSW -- Black . That should complete all the freight car colors. Will fill in the missing numbers as soon as I get a chance. Ciao, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I have loaded the first three and posted the file. I of course switched the > color and car number columns so they are the same as the other files. I > load this one shortly. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:19 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua > > > > Chuck, I'll finish the freight cars up here, and go on to the > trailer trucks, etc, later. > > Kit No. Car Type . > > Offset Side Triple Hopper 40' . > > Model No. Road Name Car No. Color . > > TH-1 SP Red . > > TH-2 C&O Black . > > TH-3 ATSF 76590 Red . > > TH-4 B&O 435340 Black . > > TH-5 SAL Red . > > TH-6 M&StL Black . > > TH-7 ERIE 38756 Black . > > TH_8 NYC 904369 Red . > > TH-9 B&LE 62004 Black . > > TH-10 N&W 101352 Black . > > C&NW Red . > > Cars of the Roaring Twenties (Collector Series) . > > Wood Sheathed Reefer RT-1 A.R.T. 11990 Yellow . > > Outside Braced Boxcar RT-2 FRISCO 126887 B/C Red . > > General Service Gon RT-3 EREX Enterprise 205 Red . > > Let's try this for now. Ray Wetzel > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > That would be fine. Happy to do it. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:05 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, Guess you noticed some discussion on Ulrich. While I just > > assumed that most everyone knew what they are, I keep forgetting > how > > far back they were discontinued and that many of the newer > collectors > > here may not know (or recognize) what they are, as in this recent > > thread. This should be an easy one to do a spread-sheet on if you'd > > like to help out again. I was a little hesitant on the Binkley- > > Laconia, not wanting to trespass on Spanagel's magazine copyright, > > but I might still do that one yet, with changing a few words > around. > > We don't need to do a history with Ulrich though, even though I > > could. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I found two of them, one in the original package, part number > 5640, > > for 35 > > > cents. The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64. > > Which would > > > make the top of the gauge 43/128. Not the easiest of numbers to > > measure > > > which maybe why the gauge. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. <http://community. > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of Sean Naylor > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, > > > > > > I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking > > place... I have > > > a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old > > couplers some > > > time ago.. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will keep looking though.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM > > > > > > I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the > > Mantua gage. > > > gj > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Glenn476 <mailto:glenn476@> > > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't need any--that's how I replaced some. gj > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Sean Naylor <mailto:a69mustang4me@> > > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the > loop > > type, > > > Right? > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net > > > <mailto:glenn476@> > wrote: > > > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476@> net> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> ps.com > > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > > > Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge? It would be > > cylindrical > > > metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter > > would be the > > > proper coupler height. > > > > > > > > > > > > If not a spare one, good measurements would do. Outside diameter > > and > > > diameter at bottom of grooves. Should be a simple lathe project. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks GJ > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6458	From: erieberk	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich, was -- Mantua

Chuck, Nice job on the freight car spread sheet. While you are adding the rest of these colors, just add in the word "Twin" in Kit 107 Straight Side (Ribbed) 32' Twin Hopper, Peaked End, and in Kit 109 Straight Side (Ribbed) 32' Twin Hopper, Flat End. Many thanks, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I have loaded the first three and posted the file. I of course switched the > color and car number columns so they are the same as the other files. I > load this one shortly. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:19 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua > > > > Chuck, I'll finish the freight cars up here, and go on to the > trailer trucks, etc, later. > > Kit No. Car Type . > > Offset Side Triple Hopper 40' . > > Model No. Road Name Car No. Color . > > TH-1 SP Red . > > TH-2 C&O Black . > > TH-3 ATSF 76590 Red . > > TH-4 B&O 435340 Black . > > TH-5 SAL Red . > > TH-6 M&StL Black . > > TH-7 ERIE 38756 Black . > > TH_8 NYC 904369 Red . > > TH-9 B&LE 62004 Black . > > TH-10 N&W 101352 Black . > > C&NW Red . > > Cars of the Roaring Twenties (Collector Series) . > > Wood Sheathed Reefer RT-1 A.R.T. 11990 Yellow . > > Outside Braced Boxcar RT-2 FRISCO 126887 B/C Red . > > General Service Gon RT-3 EREX Enterprise 205 Red . > > Let's try this for now. Ray Wetzel > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > That would be fine. Happy to do it. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:05 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ulrich, was -- Mantua > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck, Guess you noticed some discussion on Ulrich. While I just > > assumed that most everyone knew what they are, I keep forgetting > how > > far back they were discontinued and that many of the newer > collectors > > here may not know (or recognize) what they are, as in this recent > > thread. This should be an easy one to do a spread-sheet on if you'd > > like to help out again. I was a little hesitant on the Binkley- > > Laconia, not wanting to trespass on Spanagel's magazine copyright, > > but I might still do that one yet, with changing a few words > around. > > We don't need to do a history with Ulrich though, even though I > > could. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com, > > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I found two of them, one in the original package, part number > 5640, > > for 35 > > > cents. The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64. > > Which would > > > make the top of the gauge 43/128. Not the easiest of numbers to > > measure > > > which maybe why the gauge. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > > http://community. <http://community. > <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> webshots.com/user/lordon104> > > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com] > > On Behalf > > > Of Sean Naylor > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, > > > > > > I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking > > place... I have > > > a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old > > couplers some > > > time ago.. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will keep looking though.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com > > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM > > > > > > I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the > > Mantua gage. > > > gj > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Glenn476 <mailto:glenn476@> > > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't need any--that's how I replaced some. gj > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Sean Naylor <mailto:a69mustang4me@> > > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Glenn, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the > loop > > type, > > > Right? > > > > > > > > > Sean > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net > > > <mailto:glenn476@> > wrote: > > > > > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. <mailto:glenn476@> net> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> ps.com > > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM > > > > > > Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge? It would be > > cylindrical > > > metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter > > would be the > > > proper coupler height. > > > > > > > > > > > > If not a spare one, good measurements would do. Outside diameter > > and > > > diameter at bottom of grooves. Should be a simple lathe project. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks GJ > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6459	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: some oldies... off topic

I think I remenber something about the Wheelbarrow and Studebaker but it was about that long ago I think I remember him telling me about it but I forget a lot of stuff now a days. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:26:11 -0700 > > > Gotcha!!None! Mr. Studebaker got his start in Sacramento during the Gold > Rush. One of the smart ones, who found a way to mine gold from the other > miners, legally. Studebaker began manufacturing one of the most important > vehicles of the time--the Wheel Barrow!. One wheel. No miner could really > get along without one. He later started adding wheels, and eventually an > engine, when one was invented. An early one is in a museum near the Calif. > State RR Museum in Sacramento,. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > > > > Is that 1852 Studebaker a one, or two horse hitch? > > > > Best to ya, > > Mike Bauers > > Milwaukee, Wi > > > > On Jun 18, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Glenn476 wrote: > > > >> ya want rare--how about an 1852 Studebaker? Definitely a museum > >> piece. Saw > >> one on a tour at PCR a few years back. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:02 PM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: some oldies... off topic > >> > >> > >>> Corvairs? To me, that's mainstream. > >>> > >>> I have a Studebaker Avanti (one of 4,643 made versus something like > >>> over 300,000 for Corvairs).......... > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6460	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

Hard to find an eight foot be it made the truck almost 32 feet long, and I just have never been able to find one in any make of truck. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:30:56 -0000 > > > 2 door cars just about always cool, 4 door trucks are cool....if they > still have an 8 foot box. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > > > > Off topic but a reply to the wife thing,,My X-wife always said I was > > weird because I liked Two door cars and Four door trucks,,, but she > is an > > X-Wife, Go Figure.Charlie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6461	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/20/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

I saw one once... It was long... Maybe custom.. I think it was a late 70's ford..   Sean   --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Charles Windes <cwindes@...> wrote: From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 20, 2008, 1:42 PM Hard to find an eight foot be it made the truck almost 32 feet long, and I just have never been able to find one in any make of truck. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:30:56 -0000 > > > 2 door cars just about always cool, 4 door trucks are cool....if they > still have an 8 foot box. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@... > wrote: > > > > Off topic but a reply to the wife thing,,My X-wife always said I was > > weird because I liked Two door cars and Four door trucks,,, but she > is an > > X-Wife, Go Figure.Charlie > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoo dlife.net/ younghollywoodaw ards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6462	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

Guy I worked with about 6 - 8 years ago had a Chevy like that. The amazing thing is it was a 4 X 4 - and he had a plow on it. Can you imagine doing any kind of plowing with something that long? But he loved it. I will say that it was built just before all the p/u manufacturers started making those ridiculously huge cabs now being built. Back in the late 60's my dad sold a Dodge crew-cab with an 8 ft box to a guy who was moving to Maine from Milwaukee. When the buyer found out the unit wouldn't be delivered until after he moved, he wanted to cancel the order. Dad offered to deliver it to him. When it arrived, he and mother drove it to Maine and returned by train. Made a nice trip for them. When I worked at Quaden Dodge in Okauchee, WI., back in the 70's, we delivered a 1974 (or so) Dodge Crew-cab with a short box. Back in those days that was still a 6.5 ft. box. The buyer bought it for towing a 5th wheel travel trailer and so the short box worked well for him. My opinion (and it's only my opinion, obviously a lot of others have different opinions) of the new genre of huge, maxi, mammoth, living room size p/u cabs with, what, a 4 ft. or so box should never be called a truck. I consider them to be huge, useless, gas-sucking 4 door sedans with leaky trunks. I just can't believe how a simple p/u truck went from being a very useful tool to.... I dunno, something. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > > Hard to find an eight foot be it made the truck almost 32 feet long, and I just have never been able to find one in any make of truck. > Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6463	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

> I consider them to be huge, useless, gas-sucking 4 door sedans > with leaky trunks. I just can't believe how a simple p/u truck went > from being a very useful tool to.... I dunno, something. > idiot Yuppie toy .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6464	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

I like Single cab w/ bench seat - 8 ft bed all wrapped-up with a 66 chevy fleet side (:P).. I got to drive one once...I was 7, I think...  it was a very short drive and I was not able to push the gas... my brother did it for me...   Sean --- On Sat, 6/21/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:55 AM Guy I worked with about 6 - 8 years ago had a Chevy like that. The amazing thing is it was a 4 X 4 - and he had a plow on it. Can you imagine doing any kind of plowing with something that long? But he loved it. I will say that it was built just before all the p/u manufacturers started making those ridiculously huge cabs now being built. Back in the late 60's my dad sold a Dodge crew-cab with an 8 ft box to a guy who was moving to Maine from Milwaukee. When the buyer found out the unit wouldn't be delivered until after he moved, he wanted to cancel the order. Dad offered to deliver it to him. When it arrived, he and mother drove it to Maine and returned by train. Made a nice trip for them. When I worked at Quaden Dodge in Okauchee, WI., back in the 70's, we delivered a 1974 (or so) Dodge Crew-cab with a short box. Back in those days that was still a 6.5 ft. box. The buyer bought it for towing a 5th wheel travel trailer and so the short box worked well for him. My opinion (and it's only my opinion, obviously a lot of others have different opinions) of the new genre of huge, maxi, mammoth, living room size p/u cabs with, what, a 4 ft. or so box should never be called a truck. I consider them to be huge, useless, gas-sucking 4 door sedans with leaky trunks. I just can't believe how a simple p/u truck went from being a very useful tool to.... I dunno, something. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@... > wrote: > > Hard to find an eight foot be it made the truck almost 32 feet long, and I just have never been able to find one in any make of truck. > Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6465	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Meet At Mt Union

Hi All, Although this isn't any kind of update of the Withlacoochee River Rwy, it is however, a new video using my Trainz RR Sim, the Mt Union Railroad is a 30 inch gauge railroad running both freight and passenger service up to Mt Union from Little Bigsby, enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTOFH_lXF9I Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6466	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

I enjoyed the leaky trunk bit. I would like to find one I can afford to this day to drive back and forth to work(about 30 miles a day), but they are so expensive around here even the ones on their last legs body and motor wise. I just shake my head and wonder when everyone got so involved in waiting to screw the next person for the extra 1000.00. I guesss everything is expensive when your are in the lower income group. The leaky trunk was very good . Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... > Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:55:34 -0000 > > > Guy I worked with about 6 - 8 years ago had a Chevy like that. The > amazing thing is it was a 4 X 4 - and he had a plow on it. Can you > imagine doing any kind of plowing with something that long? But he > loved it. I will say that it was built just before all the p/u > manufacturers started making those ridiculously huge cabs now being > built. > > Back in the late 60's my dad sold a Dodge crew-cab with an 8 ft box to > a guy who was moving to Maine from Milwaukee. When the buyer found out > the unit wouldn't be delivered until after he moved, he wanted to > cancel the order. Dad offered to deliver it to him. When it arrived, he > and mother drove it to Maine and returned by train. Made a nice trip > for them. > > When I worked at Quaden Dodge in Okauchee, WI., back in the 70's, we > delivered a 1974 (or so) Dodge Crew-cab with a short box. Back in those > days that was still a 6.5 ft. box. The buyer bought it for towing a 5th > wheel travel trailer and so the short box worked well for him. > > My opinion (and it's only my opinion, obviously a lot of others have > different opinions) of the new genre of huge, maxi, mammoth, living > room size p/u cabs with, what, a 4 ft. or so box should never be called > a truck. I consider them to be huge, useless, gas-sucking 4 door sedans > with leaky trunks. I just can't believe how a simple p/u truck went > from being a very useful tool to.... I dunno, something. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > > > > Hard to find an eight foot be it made the truck almost 32 feet long, > and I just have never been able to find one in any make of truck. > > Charlie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6467	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

I had about three of the body style your speak of loved them greatly also had a 60 Carryall (Suburban with Three doors(five if youinclude the double doors on the rear. I also had a '66 GMC with the V-6 engine,,,I was glad it was when gas was just $1.25 a gallon because it got a HORRIBLE gas mileage like 4 miles to the gallon, however if you wanted to pull, or haul something (anything)it had the horses from the engine, The Pistons were teh size of a 2 1/2 gallon bucket botton. OUCH Charlie again ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Naylor" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT) I like Single cab w/ bench seat - 8 ft bed all wrapped-up with a 66 chevy fleet side (:P).. I got to drive one once...I was 7, I think...  it was a very short drive and I was not able to push the gas... my brother did it for me...   Sean --- On Sat, 6/21/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:55 AM Guy I worked with about 6 - 8 years ago had a Chevy like that. The amazing thing is it was a 4 X 4 - and he had a plow on it. Can you imagine doing any kind of plowing with something that long? But he loved it. I will say that it was built just before all the p/u manufacturers started making those ridiculously huge cabs now being built. Back in the late 60's my dad sold a Dodge crew-cab with an 8 ft box to a guy who was moving to Maine from Milwaukee. When the buyer found out the unit wouldn't be delivered until after he moved, he wanted to cancel the order. Dad offered to deliver it to him. When it arrived, he and mother drove it to Maine and returned by train. Made a nice trip for them. When I worked at Quaden Dodge in Okauchee, WI., back in the 70's, we delivered a 1974 (or so) Dodge Crew-cab with a short box. Back in those days that was still a 6.5 ft. box. The buyer bought it for towing a 5th wheel travel trailer and so the short box worked well for him. My opinion (and it's only my opinion, obviously a lot of others have different opinions) of the new genre of huge, maxi, mammoth, living room size p/u cabs with, what, a 4 ft. or so box should never be called a truck. I consider them to be huge, useless, gas-sucking 4 door sedans with leaky trunks. I just can't believe how a simple p/u truck went from being a very useful tool to.... I dunno, something. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@... > wrote: > > Hard to find an eight foot be it made the truck almost 32 feet long, and I just have never been able to find one in any make of truck. > Charlie -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6468	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/21/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

Oh, yeah. Those old GMC V-6’s were real torque monsters. Remember the V-12 they had back then? Essentially two V-6’s connected together. They were popular with some fire departments.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Windes Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:42 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...   I had about three of the body style your speak of loved them greatly also had a 60 Carryall (Suburban with Three doors(five if youinclude the double doors on the rear. I also had a '66 GMC with the V-6 engine,,,I was glad it was when gas was just $1.25 a gallon because it got a HORRIBLE gas mileage like 4 miles to the gallon, however if you wanted to pull, or haul something (anything)it had the horses from the engine, The Pistons were teh size of a 2 1/2 gallon bucket botton. OUCH Charlie again ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Naylor" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT) I like Single cab w/ bench seat - 8 ft bed all wrapped-up with a 66 chevy fleet side (:P).. I got to drive one once...I was 7, I think...  it was a very short drive and I was not able to push the gas... my brother did it for me...   Sean --- On Sat, 6/21/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:55 AM Guy I worked with about 6 - 8 years ago had a Chevy like that. The amazing thing is it was a 4 X 4 - and he had a plow on it. Can you imagine doing any kind of plowing with something that long? But he loved it. I will say that it was built just before all the p/u manufacturers started making those ridiculously huge cabs now being built. Back in the late 60's my dad sold a Dodge crew-cab with an 8 ft box to a guy who was moving to Maine from Milwaukee . When the buyer found out the unit wouldn't be delivered until after he moved, he wanted to cancel the order. Dad offered to deliver it to him. When it arrived, he and mother drove it to Maine and returned by train. Made a nice trip for them. When I worked at Quaden Dodge in Okauchee, WI., back in the 70's, we delivered a 1974 (or so) Dodge Crew-cab with a short box. Back in those days that was still a 6.5 ft. box. The buyer bought it for towing a 5th wheel travel trailer and so the short box worked well for him. My opinion (and it's only my opinion, obviously a lot of others have different opinions) of the new genre of huge, maxi, mammoth, living room size p/u cabs with, what, a 4 ft. or so box should never be called a truck. I consider them to be huge, useless, gas-sucking 4 door sedans with leaky trunks. I just can't believe how a simple p/u truck went from being a very useful tool to.... I dunno, something. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@... > wrote: > > Hard to find an eight foot be it made the truck almost 32 feet long, and I just have never been able to find one in any make of truck. > Charlie -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6469	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

With all the hot topics lately on the message board, I thought I'd add a humorous dash of cold water! By the way, this is not mine. As far as I know, it was posted by "anonymous." *****  How many group members does it take to change a light bulb? ****        One to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed.        Fourteen to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently.        Seven to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.        Seven more to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.        Three to correct spelling/grammar errors.        Six to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb".        Another six to condemn those six as stupid.        Fifteen to claim experience in the lighting industry and give the correct spelling.        Nineteen to post that this group is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a light bulb (or lightbulb) forum.        Eleven to defend the posting to the group saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this group.        Thirty six to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty.        Seven to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs.        Four to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL.        Three to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to  this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group.        Thirteen to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too".        Five to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy.        Four to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"        Thirteen to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs."        Three to tell a funny story about their cat and a light bulb.        AND        One group lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now with something unrelated and start it all over again!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6470	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...

I do seem to remember seeing a couple of them, they were just monsters all over with all of the equipment on them. Cheers to all CAW ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:00:06 -0500 Oh, yeah. Those old GMC V-6’s were real torque monsters. Remember the V-12 they had back then? Essentially two V-6’s connected together. They were popular with some fire departments.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Windes Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:42 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies...   I had about three of the body style your speak of loved them greatly also had a 60 Carryall (Suburban with Three doors(five if youinclude the double doors on the rear. I also had a '66 GMC with the V-6 engine,,,I was glad it was when gas was just $1.25 a gallon because it got a HORRIBLE gas mileage like 4 miles to the gallon, however if you wanted to pull, or haul something (anything)it had the horses from the engine, The Pistons were teh size of a 2 1/2 gallon bucket botton. OUCH Charlie again ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Naylor" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 04:24:31 -0700 (PDT) I like Single cab w/ bench seat - 8 ft bed all wrapped-up with a 66 chevy fleet side (:P).. I got to drive one once...I was 7, I think...  it was a very short drive and I was not able to push the gas... my brother did it for me...   Sean --- On Sat, 6/21/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ulrich trucks, was: ID some oldies... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 4:55 AM Guy I worked with about 6 - 8 years ago had a Chevy like that. The amazing thing is it was a 4 X 4 - and he had a plow on it. Can you imagine doing any kind of plowing with something that long? But he loved it. I will say that it was built just before all the p/u manufacturers started making those ridiculously huge cabs now being built. Back in the late 60's my dad sold a Dodge crew-cab with an 8 ft box to a guy who was moving to Maine from Milwaukee . When the buyer found out the unit wouldn't be delivered until after he moved, he wanted to cancel the order. Dad offered to deliver it to him. When it arrived, he and mother drove it to Maine and returned by train. Made a nice trip for them. When I worked at Quaden Dodge in Okauchee, WI., back in the 70's, we delivered a 1974 (or so) Dodge Crew-cab with a short box. Back in those days that was still a 6.5 ft. box. The buyer bought it for towing a 5th wheel travel trailer and so the short box worked well for him. My opinion (and it's only my opinion, obviously a lot of others have different opinions) of the new genre of huge, maxi, mammoth, living room size p/u cabs with, what, a 4 ft. or so box should never be called a truck. I consider them to be huge, useless, gas-sucking 4 door sedans with leaky trunks. I just can't believe how a simple p/u truck went from being a very useful tool to.... I dunno, something. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@... > wrote: > > Hard to find an eight foot be it made the truck almost 32 feet long, and I just have never been able to find one in any make of truck. > Charlie -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6471	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: OT - Re: [vintageHO] A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

Fred, et al-- Thanks for the humor. I needed a little chuckle today. I own/moderate 13 Yahoo Groups, all ham radio and radio-Scouting related with my major Group having over 3900 members. This is sooooooo typical. One of my Groups is for owner/moderators of ham radio Groups and this was posted on there with a few additions expecially for moderators, to include: 18 on-list complaints that the subject was off-topic. 3 to add "OT" to the Subject Line (like I did :-D ). 17 to complain off-list to the Group owner about the OT post. 21 unsubscriptions to the Group because too much email was clogging their inbox. 42 who responded only to the original post without first reading the subsequent responses. 16 who requested onlist that the moderator stop the thread. 1 from the moderator to the Group to stop the thread. 7 who were put on moderated posting status for ignoring the moderator. 7 who were subsequently banned from the Group for complaining onlist that this is a free country and their freedom of speech rights were being violated. (NOTE: I disabuse them of the notion that these Groups are or should be deomcratically run.) 9 more who were either moderated or banned after the thread became steadily nastier and each flamed a little worser than the previous poster. 16 who complained off-list to the moderator that the Groups' messages weren't all being received. 19 who complained because they were receiving more than one Daily Digest per day because of the numbers of posts due to this thread. (Subset of above): 16 who wanted to know how to switch to the "Web only" (no email) option. 24 new members who heard about the flaming thread from cross-posts to other Groups and wanted to watch the action. 1 owner/moderator who switched the Group to "Posts only by moderator". 1 owner/moderator who closed down and deleted the Group. Appreciating good Sunday humor, Fred Stevens Inside in air conditioning in Prescott, AZ where it's 97F at 5400'; formerly of the NYO&W, Sidney and Guilford, NY At 9:51 AM -0700 22/6/08, Fred Hultberg wrote: >With all the hot topics lately on the message board, I thought I'd add a humorous dash of cold water! By the way, this is not mine. As far as I know, it was posted by "anonymous." > > > >***** How many group members does it take to change a light bulb? **** > > > One to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed. > > Fourteen to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. > > Seven to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. > > Seven more to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. > > Three to correct spelling/grammar errors. > > Six to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb". > > Another six to condemn those six as stupid. > > Fifteen to claim experience in the lighting industry and give the correct spelling. > > Nineteen to post that this group is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a light bulb (or lightbulb) forum. > > Eleven to defend the posting to the group saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this group. > > Thirty six to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty. > > Seven to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. > > Four to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL. > > Three to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group. > > Thirteen to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too". > > Five to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. > > Four to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" > > Thirteen to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs." > > Three to tell a funny story about their cat and a light bulb. > > AND > > One group lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now with something unrelated and start it all over again!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6472	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

"I  LIKE  IT" CAW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Hultberg" To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] A Little Frivolity For A Sunday Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:51:09 -0700 (PDT) With all the hot topics lately on the message board, I thought I'd add a humorous dash of cold water! By the way, this is not mine. As far as I know, it was posted by "anonymous." *****  How many group members does it take to change a light bulb? ****        One to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed.        Fourteen to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently.        Seven to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.        Seven more to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs.        Three to correct spelling/grammar errors.        Six to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb".        Another six to condemn those six as stupid.        Fifteen to claim experience in the lighting industry and give the correct spelling.        Nineteen to post that this group is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a light bulb (or lightbulb) forum.        Eleven to defend the posting to the group saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this group.        Thirty six to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty.        Seven to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs.        Four to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL.        Three to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to  this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group.        Thirteen to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too".        Five to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy.        Four to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"        Thirteen to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs."        Three to tell a funny story about their cat and a light bulb.        AND        One group lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now with something unrelated and start it all over again! -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6473	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: OT - Re: [vintageHO] A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

You're welcome, Fred!   --- On Sun, 6/22/08, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> Subject: OT - Re: [vintageHO] A Little Frivolity For A Sunday To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 22, 2008, 1:40 PM Fred, et al-- Thanks for the humor. I needed a little chuckle today. I own/moderate 13 Yahoo Groups, all ham radio and radio-Scouting related with my major Group having over 3900 members. This is sooooooo typical. One of my Groups is for owner/moderators of ham radio Groups and this was posted on there with a few additions expecially for moderators, to include: 18 on-list complaints that the subject was off-topic. 3 to add "OT" to the Subject Line (like I did :-D ). 17 to complain off-list to the Group owner about the OT post. 21 unsubscriptions to the Group because too much email was clogging their inbox. 42 who responded only to the original post without first reading the subsequent responses. 16 who requested onlist that the moderator stop the thread. 1 from the moderator to the Group to stop the thread. 7 who were put on moderated posting status for ignoring the moderator. 7 who were subsequently banned from the Group for complaining onlist that this is a free country and their freedom of speech rights were being violated. (NOTE: I disabuse them of the notion that these Groups are or should be deomcratically run.) 9 more who were either moderated or banned after the thread became steadily nastier and each flamed a little worser than the previous poster. 16 who complained off-list to the moderator that the Groups' messages weren't all being received. 19 who complained because they were receiving more than one Daily Digest per day because of the numbers of posts due to this thread. (Subset of above): 16 who wanted to know how to switch to the "Web only" (no email) option. 24 new members who heard about the flaming thread from cross-posts to other Groups and wanted to watch the action. 1 owner/moderator who switched the Group to "Posts only by moderator". 1 owner/moderator who closed down and deleted the Group. Appreciating good Sunday humor, Fred Stevens Inside in air conditioning in Prescott, AZ where it's 97F at 5400'; formerly of the NYO&W, Sidney and Guilford, NY

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6474	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

I don't understand. What do lightbulbs (light bulbs) have to do with this boards topic, which is pick-up trucks. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote: > With all the hot topics lately on the message board, I thought I'd add a humorous dash of cold water! By the way, this is not mine. As far as I know, it was posted by "anonymous." > > > > *****  How many group members does it take to change a light bulb? **** > >    >     One to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed. >    >     Fourteen to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. >    >     Seven to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. >    >     Seven more to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. >    >     Three to correct spelling/grammar errors. >    >     Six to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb". >    >     Another six to condemn those six as stupid. >    >     Fifteen to claim experience in the lighting industry and give the correct spelling. >    >     Nineteen to post that this group is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a light bulb (or lightbulb) forum. >    >     Eleven to defend the posting to the group saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this group. >    >     Thirty six to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty. >    >     Seven to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. >    >     Four to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL. >    >     Three to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to  this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group. >    >     Thirteen to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too". >    >     Five to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. >    >     Four to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" >    >     Thirteen to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs." >    >     Three to tell a funny story about their cat and a light bulb. >    >     AND >    >     One group lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now with something unrelated and start it all over again! >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6475	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

LOL ! ! !   Thanks, John!     --- On Sun, 6/22/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 22, 2008, 4:39 PM I don't understand. What do lightbulbs (light bulbs) have to do with this boards topic, which is pick-up trucks. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6476	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Athearn RDC

This afternoon I dug into my old Athearn RDC-1.  This is one of the original metal ones.  I have a dummy, I want to power it.  I have a "Bull Ant" power truck made to fit, but need sideframes.  I'd rather not mess up the original truck--so I am looking for one of the later "Hi-F" trucks.  I only need the sideframes--I need to adapt to the Bull Ant's bolster.   Anyone have one to spare??   Or--anyone have an Athearn gear-drive power truck to spare??   Thanx---gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6477	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Ulrich list

Ray, I have revised the last list with the latest changes and it is in the file section.  I have also added one for the Walthers tinplate passenger cars.  I needed the list for another site and two birds and one stone. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6478	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: New aquisitions

Added photos to my albums of a few new cars, the two Walthers heavyweights in the zdon dellmann's stuff - Walthers album that I mentioned last week and a relatively uncommon Ambroid "Unicel" reefer that had been started but never finished. I don't think this one was ever reissued under the Northeastern label, but I'm not sure. I did deviate from the prototype a bit, I couldn't match the faded yellowing white sides, so I did the door and ends in blue to match the roof. You can also see them by clicking on "new photos" on the home page (at least for a week). Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6479	From: Wobbly913	Date: 6/22/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn RDC

I have a set of HI F RDC sideframes. They are missing the insulators, screws and axle sets so they may well be exactly what you are looking for. If you want them simply send me your mailing address and I will get them into the mail.   Wobbly913  wobbly913@... --- On Sun, 6/22/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn RDC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 22, 2008, 4:18 PM This afternoon I dug into my old Athearn RDC-1.  This is one of the original metal ones.  I have a dummy, I want to power it.  I have a "Bull Ant" power truck made to fit, but need sideframes.  I'd rather not mess up the original truck--so I am looking for one of the later "Hi-F" trucks.  I only need the sideframes--I need to adapt to the Bull Ant's bolster.   Anyone have one to spare??   Or--anyone have an Athearn gear-drive power truck to spare??   Thanx---gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6480	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/23/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

Come on John, of course you do! Pick up trucks have light bulbs that run off 12V DC just like vintage HO trains. They also have batteries that are 12V and in the Ooooooooold days were used to power vintage HO trains. So see, there you have it -- a complete, useless, but full circle. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > I don't understand. What do lightbulbs (light bulbs) have to do with > this boards topic, which is pick-up trucks. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@> wrote: > > With all the hot topics lately on the message board, I thought I'd > add a humorous dash of cold water! By the way, this is not mine. As > far as I know, it was posted by "anonymous." > > > > > > > > *****? How many group members does it take to change a light bulb? > **** > > > > ?? > > ??? One to change the light bulb and to post that the?light bulb > has been changed. > > ?? > > ??? Fourteen to share similar experiences of changing?light bulbs > and how the light bulb could have been changed?differently. > > ?? > > ??? Seven to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. > > ?? > > ??? Seven more to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about > changing light bulbs. > > ?? > > ??? Three to correct spelling/grammar errors. > > ?? > > ??? Six to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb". > > ?? > > ??? Another six to condemn those six as stupid. > > ?? > > ??? Fifteen to claim experience in the lighting industry and give > the?correct spelling. > > ?? > > ??? Nineteen to post that this group is not about light bulbs and > to please take this discussion to a light bulb (or lightbulb) forum. > > ?? > > ??? Eleven to defend the posting to the group saying that we all > use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this?group. > > ?? > > ??? Thirty six to debate which method of changing?light bulbs is > superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light > bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty. > > ?? > > ??? Seven to post URLs where one can see examples of?different > light bulbs. > > ?? > > ??? Four to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly?and then > post the corrected URL. > > ?? > > ??? Three to post about links they found from the URLs?that are > relevant to? this group which makes light bulbs relevant to?this > group. > > ?? > > ??? Thirteen to link all posts to date, quote them in?their > entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me?too". > > ?? > > ??? Five to post to the group that they will no longer?post because > they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. > > ?? > > ??? Four to say "didn't we go through this already a short time > ago?" > > ?? > > ??? Thirteen to say "do a Google search on light bulbs?before > posting questions about light bulbs." > > ?? > > ??? Three to tell a funny story about their cat and a light bulb. > > ?? > > ??? AND > > ?? > > ??? One group lurker to respond to the original post 6?months from > now with something unrelated and start it all over again! > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6481	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/23/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

----- Original Message ----- From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:07 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday > Come on John, of course you do! Pick up trucks have light bulbs that > run off 12V DC just like vintage HO trains. They also have batteries > that are 12V and in the Ooooooooold days were used to power vintage > HO trains. So see, there you have it -- a complete, useless, but full > circle. > > Matt When SOME, the model railroad club at Milwaukee School of Engineering started their first layout (featured in an MR article sometime around 1980 or so), the first power supply was a pair of jumper cables strung through the window from the faculty advisor's 1959 Plymouth. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6482	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/23/2008
Subject: Edging back to ON TOPIC - Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

Don, At least the faculty advisor had good taste in cars. I hear stories of running trains off of 12v storage batteries with little in the way of circuit protection. Man, what happens if one gets a short. Heck, I've melted truck coil springs using a Marn-O-Pack before the breaker popped. Automotive batteries pack 40 - 65 amps. You could melt down a Mantua Mike with that kind of amperage. I remember seeing the battery bank used to power the Paper Valley Model Railroad Club's layout back in the late 40's. I don't remember how many batteries they used, but it was several. I also know that they had good circuit protection to prevent meltdowns. John Hagen Milwaukee, WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > When SOME, the model railroad club at Milwaukee School of Engineering > started their first layout (featured in an MR article sometime around 1980 > or so), the first power supply was a pair of jumper cables strung through > the window from the faculty advisor's 1959 Plymouth. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6483	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 6/23/2008
Subject: Edging back to ON TOPIC - Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

Remember when slot car racing was all the rage? There was a local slot car track that had competition races. They powered the track with two 6 volt car batteries in series. I used to melt the brush housings on my motors on a regular basis. Of course it was compounded by the fact that I rewound my motors to draw 4 amps. I tied for a trophy only to lose the playoff race due to a melted brush housing. It was fun, though. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Don, > > At least the faculty advisor had good taste in cars. > > I hear stories of running trains off of 12v storage batteries with > little in the way of circuit protection. Man, what happens if one gets > a short. Heck, I've melted truck coil springs using a Marn-O-Pack > before the breaker popped. Automotive batteries pack 40 - 65 amps. You > could melt down a Mantua Mike with that kind of amperage. > > I remember seeing the battery bank used to power the Paper Valley Model > Railroad Club's layout back in the late 40's. I don't remember how many > batteries they used, but it was several. I also know that they had good > circuit protection to prevent meltdowns. > > John Hagen > Milwaukee, WI >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6484	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

Don, That is truly "hard core" model railroading! When I first started with HO modeing in the mid-fifties my first power unit was an old WWII radio that my father got from work (he was a true rocket scientist at White Stands Proving Grounds in New Mexico) that he tapped 12V AC out of an ran through a rectifier that was at least a cubic foot in volume. It put out so much current that if the wires from the 12v taps touched, the wires would melt within a few seconds. We used a Variac for speed control and it was wonderful and amazing. Those were the dark ages of power supplies but they were fun. Matt > When SOME, the model railroad club at Milwaukee School of Engineering > started their first layout (featured in an MR article sometime around 1980 > or so), the first power supply was a pair of jumper cables strung through > the window from the faculty advisor's 1959 Plymouth. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6485	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: traction tires

I am tinkering with a Hong Kong TYCO GP-40 or something like it and I could use a pair of replacement traction tires. While I have lots of stuff to work on older H0; newer items present a problem as I have nothing approaching these small tires in my tool boxes. There are no model rail hobby shops within a reasonable drive with gas at $4 a gallon. Mail ordering 2 tires may be the only option unless some folks here have some spares and would stick a few in an envelope and, of course, I'd pay for them. I assume most of these tires are the same sizes....the "untired" brass wheel measures to be about scale 36". Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6486	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires

Ray: For traction tires, visit your local dentist and obtain some childrens braces bands. These are tiny rubber bands. I have found these work very well for HO traction tires. Most dentists have them, and you can get a pre-pack bag of about 100 of them for about $1. Hope this helps, Dave F ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6487	From: erieberk	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich list

Hey Chuck, Heads up; I'll try to finish the Ulrich listing here. I might make it in 2 parts, I'll see how it goes. Kit No. Description Color . TOFC RTR (Undec Flat Car), W/Trailer . PF-1 B&O TOFCEE Service Red . PF-2 SP Truck Service Red . PF-3 Monon Red . PF-4 ATSF Trail Transportation Co. Red . TOFC Kit (Undec Flat Car), W/Trailer . PF-1K B&O (same description as above) Trailer - Dark Blue . PF-2K SP (same description as above) Trailer - Silver . PF-3K Monon (same description as above) Trailer - Black & Gold . PF-4K ATSF (same description as above) Trailer - Red & White Trailer Flat Car (only) . PK-1 Trailer Flat Car (Undec), Die-Cast Red . Highway Truck Kits . Three different tractors used: KW (Kenworth) 3-Axle, COE (Cab-Over- Engine) Mack 2-Axle and COE Mack 3-Axle. . KW Tractor W/Van Trailer . 1V2 P.I.E. . 1V3 Garrett . 1V4 Denver-Chicago . COE 2-Axle Mack Tractor W/Van Trailer . 2V2 Mid States . 2V3 Assoc. Transport . 2V4 Hennis . 2V5 Kraft . COE 3-Axle Mack Tractor W/Van Trailer . 3V1 Safeway . Tractor W/Flat Bed Trailer (Includes stake sides & ends) . 1F1 Flat Bed W/KW . 2F1 Flat Bed W/2-Axle Mack . 3F1 Flat Bed W/3-Axle Mack . Okay, lets try this to see what it looks like, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I have revised the last list with the latest changes and it is in the file > section. I have also added one for the Walthers tinplate passenger cars. I > needed the list for another site and two birds and one stone. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6488	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires

I would either replace the wheels or fill the grooves with JB Quik Weld and turn the tread with a file. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> Subject: [vintageHO] traction tires >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6489	From: erieberk	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich list

Chuck, That last batch of data looks readable, let's try the finish=up here: KW Dump Truck W/Trailer . 1D1 Dump Truck (Kenworth) W/Trailer . Tank Truck . 1T1 CS Tank W/KW Tractor . 2T1 CS Tank W/2-Axle Mack Tractor . Wheel & Running Gear Kit . AC1 Wheel and Running-Gear Kit (Includes: 2 Front Wheels, 8 Dual Wheels, 5 Axles, 2 Trunnions, 4 Bogies, Driveshaft and Air Cleaner) . Van Trailers Only . P.I.E. Van . Garrett Van . Denver Chicago Van . Assoc. Transport Van . Hennis Van . Mid States Van . Safeway Van . Kraft Van . Freight Car Trucks (RP-25) . TK-1 Bettendorf -- Diamond Frame (W/Nylon Wheels) . TK-2 Vulcan (W/Metal Wheels) . Coal Yard Kit . CY-1 Coal Yard Kit (Elevated Coal Trestle) . Expandable Buildings . RH-1 Rooming House . RH-3 Romming House -- 3-Pack . XB-1 Factory W/Office . XB-2 Factory W/Dock . XB-3 Factory -- 3-Pack . XB Dealer Display . Alright Chuck, that about wraps it up for original Ulrich. Will go on to what Walthers carried after they took the line over, including the new "Ulrich" kits that Walthers introduced. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I have revised the last list with the latest changes and it is in the file > section. I have also added one for the Walthers tinplate passenger cars. I > needed the list for another site and two birds and one stone. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6490	From: Steven Winter	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires

Beware, they come in all different sizes. I use some on my rubber band Athearns.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] traction tires Ray: For traction tires, visit your local dentist and obtain some childrens braces bands. These are tiny rubber bands. I have found these work very well for HO traction tires. Most dentists have them, and you can get a pre-pack bag of about 100 of them for about $1. Hope this helps, Dave F ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6491	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Fwd: Something new in HO, & some announcements for S/O/N as well !

Bar Mills Scale Models <barmills@...> wrote: Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:09:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Bar Mills Scale Models <barmills@...> To: betsy662@... Subject: Something new in HO, & some announcements for S/O/N as well ! With the NMRA National on the way we've had to push ahead opn some new, and some not-so-new kits. This is a quick update, so stop by, we promise it won't take long ! CLICK THIS LINK: http://t.pm0.net/s/c?fy.7h6g.1.4n4u.102 Remove yourself from future email here: http://i.ms00.net/remove?barmills:*:1214330744.53761:betsy662@...:e This message was sent to betsy662@... X-PMG-Recipient: betsy662@... pmguid:fy.7h6g.102

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6492	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires

Steve, Ray: I forgot to mention the size factor. Suggest getting the smallest ones you can get for diesel wheels sets. They will stretch a bit, and they do hold up well. The smallest ones are also the thinnest, which means they have a low tread profile. These seem to last a long time before they ever need to be replaced. Dave F ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6493	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday

Sounds like to me when the wires met it would be the light days of model railroading,(like light up the neighborhood) Shudder, Shedder me not like playing with electricity, strange I like model railroading soo much however. CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: A Little Frivolity For A Sunday > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:11:49 -0000 > > > Don, > > That is truly "hard core" model railroading! When I first started with > HO modeing in the mid-fifties my first power unit was an old WWII radio > that my father got from work (he was a true rocket scientist at White > Stands Proving Grounds in New Mexico) that he tapped 12V AC out of an > ran through a rectifier that was at least a cubic foot in volume. It > put out so much current that if the wires from the 12v taps touched, > the wires would melt within a few seconds. > > We used a Variac for speed control and it was wonderful and amazing. > > Those were the dark ages of power supplies but they were fun. > > Matt > > > > When SOME, the model railroad club at Milwaukee School of > > Engineering started their first layout (featured in an MR article > > sometime around > 1980 > > or so), the first power supply was a pair of jumper cables strung > through > > the window from the faculty advisor's 1959 Plymouth. > > > > Don > > > > Don Dellmann > > don.dellmann@... > > Owner > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6494	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires

Have you ever tried to use some plastic goop or something and then bringing them down to size with sandpaper or something,,,just a thought off the top of my headmight worth trying, might last longer if you can do it. CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] traction tires > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:01:36 -0400 > > > I am tinkering with a Hong Kong TYCO GP-40 or something like it and I > could use a pair of replacement traction tires. While I have lots of > stuff to work on older H0; newer items present a problem as I have > nothing approaching these small tires in my tool boxes. > > There are no model rail hobby shops within a reasonable drive with gas > at $4 a gallon. Mail ordering 2 tires may be the only option unless > some folks here have some spares and would stick a few in an envelope > and, of course, I'd pay for them. > > I assume most of these tires are the same sizes....the "untired" brass > wheel measures to be about scale 36". > > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6495	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: traction tires

That is the type of Idea I was trying to get through, does it work? CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] traction tires > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:41:13 -0700 > > > I would either replace the wheels or fill the grooves with JB Quik Weld and > turn the tread with a file. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] traction tires > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6496	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Ulrich cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Ulrich cars and models You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Ulrich%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6497	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/24/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Ulrich list

Ray, The file has been updated. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:58 PM To: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][ vintageHO ] Re: Ulrich list   Chuck, That last batch of data looks readable, let's try the finish=up here:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6498	From: erieberk	Date: 6/25/2008
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Ulrich list

Chuck, The (Ulrich) File looks fine; turned out good. I won't be getting to type the Walthers/Ulrich part of it until the weekend, even though I wrote up all the notes. I have loads of Walthers passenger cars and notes to send you to add to your Walthers "tin- plate" cars list, which I'll send first, but won't be doing that this evening (I'll start it tomorrow). I'll be showing a Conrail in New York and New Jersey slide program for a National Railroad Historical Society group tonight. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > The file has been updated. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:58 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Ulrich list > > > > Chuck, That last batch of data looks readable, let's try the > finish=up here: >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6499	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/25/2008
Subject: Re: Ulrich list

Ray, That slide show sounds good.  I made the Walthers file from their “Passenger car Plans” book, second edition, July 1973.  I have a few of those cars also and may start to build them next year, I think.  Should be fun. Have a good night at the show.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:53 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Ulrich list   Chuck, The (Ulrich) File looks fine; turned out good. I won't be getting to type the Walthers/Ulrich part of it until the weekend, even though I wrote up all the notes. I have loads of Walthers passenger cars and notes to send you to add to your Walthers "tin- plate" cars list, which I'll send first, but won't be doing that this evening (I'll start it tomorrow). I'll be showing a Conrail in New York and New Jersey slide program for a National Railroad Historical Society group tonight. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Ray, > > The file has been updated. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:58 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Ulrich list > > > > Chuck, That last batch of data looks readable, let's try the > finish=up here: >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6500	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/26/2008
Subject: My Newest V Scale Railroad

Hi Ya'll, I have been trying, for the better part of the past week, trying to get the HOG files to load into my Trainz TRS2006 game, with the HOG files I'm able to lay track and place roads and buildings accurately on a given layout grid, finally, early this morning, I was able to attain that goal, while this latest layout isn't one I started, it is a series of baseboards that reflect the geologically accurate landforms between Durango and Silverton, with the DEM data and Tiger Vector data included in this layout by fishlips, with HOG files installed, it becomes apparent where things go, this is the first such videos I'll be doing as this layout progresses, I will then have done what I've wanted to do for years, have an accurate layout following an actual prototype, the D&SNG running between Durango and Silverton, in this first video, the train is leaving Silverton, which is the only area in which I have track laid, enjoy.......:o) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duncx68Ax_s Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6501	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 6/26/2008
Subject: Re: My Newest V Scale Railroad

I can't get it to work.   A message on the You Tube page says   "Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player."   I downloaded the latest Flash player, and JavaScript is turned on just fine.  Even rebooted once.  The same message keeps coming up.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: all-railroads@yahoogroups.com ; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ; virtual_train_modeling@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: [vintageHO] My Newest V Scale Railroad Hi Ya'll, I have been trying, for the better part of the past week, trying to get the HOG files to load into my Trainz TRS2006 game, with the HOG files I'm able to lay track and place roads and buildings accurately on a given layout grid, finally, early this morning, I was able to attain that goal, while this latest layout isn't one I started, it is a series of baseboards that reflect the geologically accurate landforms between Durango and Silverton, with the DEM data and Tiger Vector data included in this layout by fishlips, with HOG files installed, it becomes apparent where things go, this is the first such videos I'll be doing as this layout progresses, I will then have done what I've wanted to do for years, have an accurate layout following an actual prototype, the D&SNG running between Durango and Silverton, in this first video, the train is leaving Silverton, which is the only area in which I have track laid, enjoy....... :o) http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=Duncx68Ax_ s Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6502	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: My Newest V Scale Railroad

Hi Chuck, I had the same thing happen to me yesterday, I got it to work fine once I downloaded and installed the new flash player........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6503	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Streamlined PRR K-4s (1940 version)

Since this is a group that has a long memory, I thought I would try out this question here. I think it is certain the the 1940 streamlined version of the PRR K-4s, like # 1120, was painted "Brunswick Green". But, was the tender deck the same color, or was it RED [bright oxide red]? How about the coal compartment? Was it also that shade of red (at least before the coal was first loaded)? Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6504	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: 60s era brass factory pix.

As some of you may know I am retired military and spent 2 1/2 years in Japan 1965-end of 1967 and got to know some of the brass builders. Anyway, one of the "biggies" there was Seichii Kumata - who, BTW, authored the 2 volume set "The Art of Brass". He was an exporter/broker, middle-man, and factory owner. Almost all of the imports by ALCO Models, Hallmark, Custom Brass, LMB, Lambert, some Westside, Overland, NPP and more were contracted thru Kumata. While some were made in his own factory, most were sub-contracted out, for example, in the Tokyo district of Ochanomizu was an almost hidden model train shop, Tetsudo Mokei Sha, but the back end was where almost all LMB models were made. I made visits to Kumata's office in Tokyo, (usually to pick up a new brass item ready for shipment) and one time I did get an invite to visit his own factory about an hours drive out of Tokyo. The day I was there they were assembling and testing brass Beyer-Garretts. BTW, 300 were made with 100 going to PFM, 100 to Fulgarex in Europe and 100 to Model Dockside in Australia. Of course I also got one for $25. He allowed me to take pictures which I have kept to myself for the most part. I took 13, all B&W. However, since Kumata-san passed away in 1998 and since the pix were taken some 40 years ago, I think some should be seen if only for historical reasons. I have U/L 7 pictures labeled KF-1 thru KF-7 in a folder called "Brass Factory". Or go direct: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/10bd?c= Ray Hobin NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6505	From: oahurailway	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.

Thanks for sharing the very interesting photos Ray! They are truly rare & unique....And to think, not an Opti-Visor or airbrush in sight! Ken > > He allowed me to take pictures which I have kept to myself for the most > part. I took 13, all B&W. However, since Kumata-san passed away in > 1998 and since the pix were taken some 40 years ago, I think some should > be seen if only for historical reasons. > > I have U/L 7 pictures labeled KF-1 thru KF-7 in a folder called "Brass > Factory". Or go direct: > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/10bd?c= > > > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6506	From: tcolret	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oahurailway" <two.peaks@...> wrote: > > Thanks for sharing the very interesting photos Ray! They are truly > rare & unique....And to think, not an Opti-Visor or airbrush in sight! > > Ken You are most welcome...hope you, and others, noticed the large tip on the soldering iron one of those petite Japanese workers had in her hands. One thing I learned from visiting Kumata's factory and that of Mizuno, who owned MicroCast, was that when soldering brass, massive heat applied quickly was the answer, otherwise, one could "unsolder" what was already soldered. While, today my first love is 3-rail tinplate, in the past when I worked, repaired, ran a mail order operation and custom painted under the trade name "Witchcraft Models" brass imports, my soldering iron had a 1/2 inch tip. Still have it, but rarely used. Regards to all and hope the group enjoys the pix I uploaded. Ray Hobin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6507	From: jerrygart5	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tcolret" <tcol@...> wrote: > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oahurailway" <two.peaks@> wrote: > > > > Thanks for sharing the very interesting photos Ray! They are truly > > rare & unique....And to think, not an Opti-Visor or airbrush in sight! > > > > Ken > > You are most welcome...hope you, and others, noticed the large tip on > the soldering iron one of those petite Japanese workers had in her > hands. One thing I learned from visiting Kumata's factory and that of > Mizuno, who owned MicroCast, was that when soldering brass, massive > heat applied quickly was the answer, otherwise, one could "unsolder" > what was already soldered. > > While, today my first love is 3-rail tinplate, in the past when I > worked, repaired, ran a mail order operation and custom painted under > the trade name "Witchcraft Models" brass imports, my soldering iron > had a 1/2 inch tip. Still have it, but rarely used. > > Regards to all and hope the group enjoys the pix I uploaded. > > Ray Hobin Ray-thanks for the pix; most interesting!! Lots of hand tools, and as pointed out, BIG soldering iron and no airbrushing. I have some of those '60's brass steam locomotives; most were beautiful to look at, but a few were poor runners. NWSL gear sets and some cheap can motors made everything much better. It will be intersting to see where some of the "premium plastic" will be in about 50 years from now. Thanks for sharing! Regards, JerryG >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6508	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

I have recently (last year) gotten back into HO kit-building (and bashing), especially very detailed and complicated wood kits. It didn't take me too long to realize that there are only a very few present day wood kit manufacturers which meet my personal craftsmanship criteria and that the vintage kits of the 1950s into the 1970s are what I enjoy most. I found two manufacturers of the era produced exceptional kits (albeit their instructions leave much to be desired, but that's part of my fun): Ambroid and Quality Craft Models (aka Weaver). There are others but they are not of concern here for purposes of this topic. Recently, having cleaned out most Arizona model RR shops of vintage kits, I purchased an Ambroid NYO&W milk reefer off eBay. The box clearly marked it as Ambroid including notation on the box end, "H-21 NYO & W [sic] Milk Car". The parts in it seem pretty typical Ambroid with almost everything wood, some needing a little trimming or other cutting, and a few cast pot metal detail parts. The address on the box is, of course, Brockton, MA 02403 (indicates about 1964-65; ZIP Codes were instituted in 1964). HOWEVER, the single page instructions were clearly marked "Quality Craft Models, Inc, 177 Wheatley Ave., Northumberland, Penna. 17857." and were of the Quality Craft Models (QCM) format down to inclusion of a photo of the prototype, construction figures on the left, size of the paper, and font. The only difference between these instructions and other QCM instructions are that the milk car's instructions lack a signature block from Robert E. Weaver. (QCM later became Weaver models, is still in business today but does only O Gauge). While I can allow for the possibility that both companies produced a NYO&W milk car and that somehow, QCM parts were put into an Ambroid box, I do not trust my own judgement on this. My question then: at some point, were Quality Craft Models and Ambroid one and the same company or did they have a manufacturers' agreement of some sort or did they share parts producers? Or is there another explanation for this seeming anomaly? I am still learning. In any instance, it's a delightful model kit which, after more than 40 years will be constructed. When finished, it will join its brethren on my Arizona Division of the New York Ontario & Western layout. Fred Stevens Formerly of Sidney and Guilford, NY on the O&W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6509	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <k2frd@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point? >I have recently (last year) gotten back into HO kit-building (and > bashing), especially very detailed and complicated wood kits. It > didn't take me too long to realize that there are only a very few > present day wood kit manufacturers which meet my personal > craftsmanship criteria and that the vintage kits of the 1950s into > the 1970s are what I enjoy most. I found two manufacturers of the era > produced exceptional kits (albeit their instructions leave much to be > desired, but that's part of my fun): Ambroid and Quality Craft Models > (aka Weaver). There are others but they are not of concern here for > purposes of this topic. > > Recently, having cleaned out most Arizona model RR shops of vintage > kits, I purchased an Ambroid NYO&W milk reefer off eBay. The box > clearly marked it as Ambroid including notation on the box end, "H-21 > NYO & W [sic] Milk Car". The parts in it seem pretty typical Ambroid > with almost everything wood, some needing a little trimming or other > cutting, and a few cast pot metal detail parts. The address on the > box is, of course, Brockton, MA 02403 (indicates about 1964-65; ZIP > Codes were instituted in 1964). HOWEVER, the single page instructions > were clearly marked "Quality Craft Models, Inc, 177 Wheatley Ave., > Northumberland, Penna. 17857." and were of the Quality Craft Models > (QCM) format down to inclusion of a photo of the prototype, > construction figures on the left, size of the paper, and font. The > only difference between these instructions and other QCM instructions > are that the milk car's instructions lack a signature block from > Robert E. Weaver. (QCM later became Weaver models, is still in > business today but does only O Gauge). > > While I can allow for the possibility that both companies produced a > NYO&W milk car and that somehow, QCM parts were put into an Ambroid > box, I do not trust my own judgement on this. My question then: at > some point, were Quality Craft Models and Ambroid one and the same > company or did they have a manufacturers' agreement of some sort or > did they share parts producers? Or is there another explanation for > this seeming anomaly? I am still learning. > > In any instance, it's a delightful model kit which, after more than > 40 years will be constructed. When finished, it will join its > brethren on my Arizona Division of the New York Ontario & Western > layout. > > Fred Stevens > Formerly of Sidney and Guilford, NY on the O&W > Ambroid never produced a kit. They only made glue. The original Ambroid "regular line" and the first two series (12 cars in each) "1 in 5000" kits were made for Ambroid by Northeastern. In fact. many Ambroid instruction sheets even say "Designed and made for Ambroid by Northeastern Scale Models Inc.". After the first two 1 in 5000 series were completed, Ambroid then started having their "Heritage line" kits made by Quality Craft. At This point Northeastern reissued the entire Ambroid line, including all the "limited run" "1 in 5000" cars under the Northeastern label. In the case of Quality Craft, they didn't even wait until Ambroid was done marketing the whole "heritage" line of "limited run" cars before they started reissuing them themselves under their own name. I don't know about Weaver, but at one point ca. 1980 or so Quality Craft HO became "Gloor Craft". The short answer to your particular question re. that one car, it was manufactured by Quality Craft but sold by Ambroid. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6510	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Fred,     I have seen and own other Ambroid kits that were produced for Ambroid by Quality Craft.  The one that comes to mind immediately is the PRR ND short caboose.  Without checking, I’m sure the kit has parts to build the car in either the four or eight wheel configuration.  Also without checking, I’m sure that my kits, like yours, are packaged in Ambroid boxes but come with Quality Craft instructions.  I’m certain that other members of our group can and will provide additional information on this subject.  Best wishes.                                                                                                                         Lou Greiff On 6/27/08 9:05 PM, "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <k2frd@...> wrote:   I have recently (last year) gotten back into HO kit-building (and bashing), especially very detailed and complicated wood kits. It didn't take me too long to realize that there are only a very few present day wood kit manufacturers which meet my personal craftsmanship criteria and that the vintage kits of the 1950s into the 1970s are what I enjoy most. I found two manufacturers of the era produced exceptional kits (albeit their instructions leave much to be desired, but that's part of my fun): Ambroid and Quality Craft Models (aka Weaver). There are others but they are not of concern here for purposes of this topic. Recently, having cleaned out most Arizona model RR shops of vintage kits, I purchased an Ambroid NYO&W milk reefer off eBay. The box clearly marked it as Ambroid including notation on the box end, "H-21 NYO & W [sic] Milk Car". The parts in it seem pretty typical Ambroid with almost everything wood, some needing a little trimming or other cutting, and a few cast pot metal detail parts. The address on the box is, of course, Brockton, MA 02403 (indicates about 1964-65; ZIP Codes were instituted in 1964). HOWEVER, the single page instructions were clearly marked "Quality Craft Models, Inc, 177 Wheatley Ave., Northumberland, Penna. 17857." and were of the Quality Craft Models (QCM) format down to inclusion of a photo of the prototype, construction figures on the left, size of the paper, and font. The only difference between these instructions and other QCM instructions are that the milk car's instructions lack a signature block from Robert E. Weaver. (QCM later became Weaver models, is still in business today but does only O Gauge). While I can allow for the possibility that both companies produced a NYO&W milk car and that somehow, QCM parts were put into an Ambroid box, I do not trust my own judgement on this. My question then: at some point, were Quality Craft Models and Ambroid one and the same company or did they have a manufacturers' agreement of some sort or did they share parts producers? Or is there another explanation for this seeming anomaly? I am still learning. In any instance, it's a delightful model kit which, after more than 40 years will be constructed. When finished, it will join its brethren on my Arizona Division of the New York Ontario & Western layout. Fred Stevens Formerly of Sidney and Guilford, NY on the O&W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6511	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Thank you Don (and Lou) for the detailed responses to my question. Of course, one question leads to another: I don't supposed there's a comprehensive list or history of these old kit manufacturers, vendors, trade names, subsidiaries, brand names, farmed out work, etc. I must have a dozen listings of old brand names (e.g., Howell Day, Red Ball, Dale Norton, etc. in addition to Ambroid, Quality Craft Models, and now Gloor and LaBelle) in my list of eBay Favorites but I get the feeling that I'm only just scratching the surface. I'd love to see a history of each comparable to the excellent LaBelle history in the VintageHO Files section. Not all old kits are created equal. I bought (from a local hobby store which lost its lease) an old slightly post-WW2 kit (ca 1946) made in Japan kit which actually used nails for construction. It was of what proved to be an 1860s-70s coach. It's basic components were primitive, poorly made, it's instructions were barely literate in semi-English but with some creative bashing and substitution of some quality components, I was able to make it into a passable model. As I dig deeper into identifying, locating, securing, and constructing these old kits, I shall contribute more to the group while relying upon the group's collective knowledge and resources. One day at a time... Fred Stevens At 8:54 PM -0500 27/6/08, Don Dellmann wrote: > >Ambroid never produced a kit. They only made glue. > >The original Ambroid "regular line" and the first two series (12 cars in >each) "1 in 5000" kits were made for Ambroid by Northeastern. In fact. many >Ambroid instruction sheets even say "Designed and made for Ambroid by >Northeastern Scale Models Inc.". > >After the first two 1 in 5000 series were completed, Ambroid then started >having their "Heritage line" kits made by Quality Craft. At This point >Northeastern reissued the entire Ambroid line, including all the "limited >run" "1 in 5000" cars under the Northeastern label. > >In the case of Quality Craft, they didn't even wait until Ambroid was done >marketing the whole "heritage" line of "limited run" cars before they >started reissuing them themselves under their own name. I don't know about >Weaver, but at one point ca. 1980 or so Quality Craft HO became "Gloor >Craft". > >The short answer to your particular question re. that one car, it was >manufactured by Quality Craft but sold by Ambroid. > >Don > >Don Dellmann >don.dellmann@... >Owner >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO -- 73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD, VO2FS http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6512	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Hi Fred, The old Athearn/ Menzies kits, especially the O scale kits, were all built using wood underlay, with metal parts attached using nails, so even some of the best old American kits were put together with nails. If you want a good history of Quality Craft Models, Bob Weaver is still around and would probably be glad to answer any questions you might have.....:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6513	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Fred, Welcome back to the world of vintage H0 kit building (and bashing). I just pulled out 3 each of 3 different Ambroid Heritage Kits, including 3 of the NYO&W Milk Car kits you have. In every kit, each instruction sheet has "Quality Craft Models Inc." (177 Wheatley Ave., Northumberland, Penna. 17857) printed at the end of the instructions. I don't think I need to pull further examples out since Don about covered it all with his explanation, but this is further verification. Too, my O&W Milk Car sheets also lack the Robert E. Weaver signature block. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > > I have recently (last year) gotten back into HO kit-building (and > bashing), especially very detailed and complicated wood kits. It > didn't take me too long to realize that there are only a very few > present day wood kit manufacturers which meet my personal > craftsmanship criteria and that the vintage kits of the 1950s into > the 1970s are what I enjoy most. I found two manufacturers of the era > produced exceptional kits (albeit their instructions leave much to be > desired, but that's part of my fun): Ambroid and Quality Craft Models > (aka Weaver). There are others but they are not of concern here for > purposes of this topic. > > Recently, having cleaned out most Arizona model RR shops of vintage > kits, I purchased an Ambroid NYO&W milk reefer off eBay. The box > clearly marked it as Ambroid including notation on the box end, "H- 21 > NYO & W [sic] Milk Car". The parts in it seem pretty typical Ambroid > with almost everything wood, some needing a little trimming or other > cutting, and a few cast pot metal detail parts. The address on the > box is, of course, Brockton, MA 02403 (indicates about 1964-65; ZIP > Codes were instituted in 1964). HOWEVER, the single page instructions > were clearly marked "Quality Craft Models, Inc, 177 Wheatley Ave., > Northumberland, Penna. 17857." and were of the Quality Craft Models > (QCM) format down to inclusion of a photo of the prototype, > construction figures on the left, size of the paper, and font. The > only difference between these instructions and other QCM instructions > are that the milk car's instructions lack a signature block from > Robert E. Weaver. (QCM later became Weaver models, is still in > business today but does only O Gauge). > > While I can allow for the possibility that both companies produced a > NYO&W milk car and that somehow, QCM parts were put into an Ambroid > box, I do not trust my own judgement on this. My question then: at > some point, were Quality Craft Models and Ambroid one and the same > company or did they have a manufacturers' agreement of some sort or > did they share parts producers? Or is there another explanation for > this seeming anomaly? I am still learning. > > In any instance, it's a delightful model kit which, after more than > 40 years will be constructed. When finished, it will join its > brethren on my Arizona Division of the New York Ontario & Western > layout. > > Fred Stevens > Formerly of Sidney and Guilford, NY on the O&W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6514	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Fred, While I don't believe there's a comprehensive listing for Ambroid (or Quality Craft, Northeastern or Gloor Craft) in our archives that I can recall, we would all like nothing better than to have such comprehensive lists on all early H0 kit manufacturers. To this end, some of us are slowly adding this info, but it can be time consuming as it involves much research even though some of us have near-complete collections of many manufacturers. Ongoing projects like this, delving into the products (and history's?) of all the manufacturers could easily turn into a full time job. Maybe some day we'll get it all done <g>. You might want to change the "Norton" name to M. Dale Newton in your list of eBay Favorites, unless you just happened to mispell it this time. There are so many more to look for, but without knowing your level of quality preferences, I'd hesitate to make suggestions on them. To me, I find them all interesting and worthy of "squirreling," if that only includes a few examples of each. I'd guess you might be referring to IMP (International Model Products) or Takara or Tenshodo when you point out the nail construction on that Japanese kit. Looking forward to your further posts as you dig up more old stuff. Don't hesitate with inquiring about any as we enjoy that part of I.D.ing them. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > > Thank you Don (and Lou) for the detailed responses to my question. Of course, one question leads to another: I don't supposed there's a comprehensive list or history of these old kit manufacturers, vendors, trade names, subsidiaries, brand names, farmed out work, etc. I must have a dozen listings of old brand names (e.g., Howell Day, Red Ball, Dale Norton, etc. in addition to Ambroid, Quality Craft Models, and now Gloor and LaBelle) in my list of eBay Favorites but I get the feeling that I'm only just scratching the surface. I'd love to see a history of each comparable to the excellent LaBelle history in the VintageHO Files section. > > Not all old kits are created equal. I bought (from a local hobby store which lost its lease) an old slightly post-WW2 kit (ca 1946) made in Japan kit which actually used nails for construction. It was of what proved to be an 1860s-70s coach. It's basic components were primitive, poorly made, it's instructions were barely literate in semi-English but with some creative bashing and substitution of some quality components, I was able to make it into a passable model. > > As I dig deeper into identifying, locating, securing, and constructing these old kits, I shall contribute more to the group while relying upon the group's collective knowledge and resources. > > One day at a time... > > Fred Stevens > > At 8:54 PM -0500 27/6/08, Don Dellmann wrote: > > > >Ambroid never produced a kit. They only made glue. > > > >The original Ambroid "regular line" and the first two series (12 cars in > >each) "1 in 5000" kits were made for Ambroid by Northeastern. In fact. many > >Ambroid instruction sheets even say "Designed and made for Ambroid by > >Northeastern Scale Models Inc.". > > > >After the first two 1 in 5000 series were completed, Ambroid then started > >having their "Heritage line" kits made by Quality Craft. At This point > >Northeastern reissued the entire Ambroid line, including all the "limited > >run" "1 in 5000" cars under the Northeastern label. > > > >In the case of Quality Craft, they didn't even wait until Ambroid was done > >marketing the whole "heritage" line of "limited run" cars before they > >started reissuing them themselves under their own name. I don't know about > >Weaver, but at one point ca. 1980 or so Quality Craft HO became "Gloor > >Craft". > > > >The short answer to your particular question re. that one car, it was > >manufactured by Quality Craft but sold by Ambroid. > > > >Don > > > >Don Dellmann > >don.dellmann@... > >Owner > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > > -- > 73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD, VO2FS > http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6515	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list

Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the slides directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, with using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to start at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go on to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on the later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, even though some bear similar types (like "Observation"). Many of these earlier 6600 Pullman's appear at first glance to be predecessors of the same numbered 6600 Pullmans from the 1960's, but with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) may be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman, etc. I'll start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > That slide show sounds good. I made the Walthers file from their "Passenger > car Plans" book, second edition, July 1973. I have a few of those cars also > and may start to build them next year, I think. Should be fun. > > Have a good night at the show. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:53 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Ulrich list > > > > Chuck, The (Ulrich) File looks fine; turned out good. I won't be > getting to type the Walthers/Ulrich part of it until the weekend, > even though I wrote up all the notes. I have loads of Walthers > passenger cars and notes to send you to add to your Walthers "tin- > plate" cars list, which I'll send first, but won't be doing that this > evening (I'll start it tomorrow). I'll be showing a Conrail in New > York and New Jersey slide program for a National Railroad Historical > Society group tonight. Best, Ray Wetzel > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > The file has been updated. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:58 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Ulrich list > > > > > > > > Chuck, That last batch of data looks readable, let's try the > > finish=up here: > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6516	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 7:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy > it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides > lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the slides > directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve > unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. > > You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, with > using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be > adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to start > at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War > (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go on > to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 > Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on the > later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, > even though some bear similar types (like "Observation"). Many of > these earlier 6600 Pullman's appear at first glance to be > predecessors of the same numbered 6600 Pullmans from the 1960's, but > with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) may > be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman, etc. I'll > start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel I noticed that myself when I just received two 6600 series cars in the boxes from another member. Is there any difference between the original 6600 series and the "intermediate" 7600 series? Both appear to have the same sides folded under and the lower roof, although possibly there are differences in the end castings? Previous cars I had/have with the folded under side I assumed to be 7600's. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6517	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list

Well it should be an interesting effort then as it sounds like they reused the same numbers a few times.  From this book I worked with there is a note “All the former 7800 series Monitor roof cars now come with Molded plastic roofs, & have been renumbered in the 6600 series.”  Again the date of this book is 1973. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:32 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list   ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 7:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy > it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides > lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the slides > directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve > unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. > > You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, with > using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be > adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to start > at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War > (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go on > to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 > Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on the > later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, > even though some bear similar types (like "Observation" ). Many of > these earlier 6600 Pullman 's appear at first glance to be > predecessors of the same numbered 6600 Pullmans from the 1960's, but > with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) may > be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman , etc. I'll > start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel I noticed that myself when I just received two 6600 series cars in the boxes from another member. Is there any difference between the original 6600 series and the "intermediate" 7600 series? Both appear to have the same sides folded under and the lower roof, although possibly there are differences in the end castings? Previous cars I had/have with the folded under side I assumed to be 7600's. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6518	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

I think that in most cases the kits were produced by Northeastern--which is now as west as they can get--in the SF Bay Area. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point? >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6519	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list

Don, Now that you mention it, the early 6600 Series match up with the intermediate 7600 Series. They all appear to just be carry overs. I can't figure then why they'd bother changing the catalog numbers, except that they may have thrown in a few improvements. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 7:46 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > > Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy > > it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides > > lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the slides > > directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve > > unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. > > > > You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, with > > using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be > > adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to start > > at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War > > (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go on > > to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 > > Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on the > > later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, > > even though some bear similar types (like "Observation"). Many of > > these earlier 6600 Pullman's appear at first glance to be > > predecessors of the same numbered 6600 Pullmans from the 1960's, but > > with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) may > > be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman, etc. I'll > > start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel > > I noticed that myself when I just received two 6600 series cars in the boxes > from another member. Is there any difference between the original 6600 > series and the "intermediate" 7600 series? Both appear to have the same > sides folded under and the lower roof, although possibly there are > differences in the end castings? > > Previous cars I had/have with the folded under side I assumed to be 7600's. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6520	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list

Chuck, It looks like only some of the first ("early") 6600 Series kits are different from the later 6600 Series kits which you wrote up. A few are totally different while others are just minor changes. On the minor changed ones, I cannot tell you if the difference is just in the changes they made with the particular interior kit they made for the car or whether there were modifications in the window configurations, but yes it will be interesting. Other early 6600 Series cars do not give a complete enough description of the car to determine if its different from the later catalog number, so except for the wood roof its impossible to say. Not to confuse you on the matter though, the 7600 Series that Don brought up (which you don't list) is not the same as the 7800 Series. Yes, you're correct in that the 6600 Series you list have styrene molded roofs. I think you may want to include that in a heading for that group, along with a manufacturing era. A heading for all different groups might be in order, andmore helpful. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Well it should be an interesting effort then as it sounds like they reused > the same numbers a few times. From this book I worked with there is a note > "All the former 7800 series Monitor roof cars now come with Molded plastic > roofs, & have been renumbered in the 6600 series." Again the date of this > book is 1973. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:32 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk% 40wmconnect.com> com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 7:46 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy > > it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides > > lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the slides > > directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve > > unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. > > > > You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, with > > using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be > > adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to start > > at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War > > (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go on > > to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 > > Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on the > > later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, > > even though some bear similar types (like "Observation"). Many of > > these earlier 6600 Pullman's appear at first glance to be > > predecessors of the same numbered 6600 Pullmans from the 1960's, but > > with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) may > > be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman, etc. I'll > > start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel > > I noticed that myself when I just received two 6600 series cars in the boxes > > from another member. Is there any difference between the original 6600 > series and the "intermediate" 7600 series? Both appear to have the same > sides folded under and the lower roof, although possibly there are > differences in the end castings? > > Previous cars I had/have with the folded under side I assumed to be 7600's. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6521	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list

Chuck, I'm going to start with the 5500 Series kits, and will probably only send those at first, only because my computor is acting up and timing me out if I make these posts too long. I then get knocked off line and lose everything I've typed. I noticed you listed a few 5500 Series kits, and I'll add to them first, but again here you'll notice that the catalog numbers I'm listing corresponding with your same catalog numbers (5525, 5526, 5530 and 5531) appear similar, but are yet somewhat different -- like the lengths for instance -- and I took this info direct from the Walthers catalogs starting from 1939 through 1949 (less the War years) for these 5500 Series. I'm putting the catalog numbers first for easier reference for you. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Well it should be an interesting effort then as it sounds like they reused > the same numbers a few times. From this book I worked with there is a note > "All the former 7800 series Monitor roof cars now come with Molded plastic > roofs, & have been renumbered in the 6600 series." Again the date of this > book is 1973. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:32 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk% 40wmconnect.com> com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 7:46 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy > > it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides > > lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the slides > > directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve > > unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. > > > > You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, with > > using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be > > adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to start > > at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War > > (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go on > > to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 > > Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on the > > later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, > > even though some bear similar types (like "Observation"). Many of > > these earlier 6600 Pullman's appear at first glance to be > > predecessors of the same numbered 6600 Pullmans from the 1960's, but > > with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) may > > be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman, etc. I'll > > start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel > > I noticed that myself when I just received two 6600 series cars in the boxes > > from another member. Is there any difference between the original 6600 > series and the "intermediate" 7600 series? Both appear to have the same > sides folded under and the lower roof, although possibly there are > differences in the end castings? > > Previous cars I had/have with the folded under side I assumed to be 7600's. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6522	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list

Would have just continued the previous post, but I don't want to risk losing everything. So, here's the first part -- Suburban and Interurban Car Kits Cat'g # . Length . . . . . Style . . . . . . Road Name . . . . . . . . 5525 . . 68' . . Coach, Monitor Roof . . .PRR, IC, DL&W, NYC . . . . . 5526 . . 68' . . Combine, Monitor Roof . .PRR, IC, DL&W, NYC . . . . . 5527 . . 68' . . Coach, Arch Roof- . . . .LI, NH, RDG- . . . . . . . . 5528 . . 50' . . Coach open end Arch Rf. .CSS&SB . . . . . . . . . . . 5529 . . 50' . . Combine open end Arch . .CSS&SB . . . . . . . . . . . 5530 . . 50' . . Coach open end Arch Rf. .Pac Elect, No. Shore, Milw . 5531 . . 50' . . Combine open end Arch-. .North Shore. . . . . . . . . 5532 . . 50' . . Express open end Arch-. .North Shore. . . . . . . . . 5533 . . 50' . . Coach open end Monitor. . Milw Electric/Transit . . . 5534 . . 50' . . Coach open end Arch Rf. .Pacific Electric . . . . . . All for now, Ray Wetzel--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Well it should be an interesting effort then as it sounds like they reused > the same numbers a few times. From this book I worked with there is a note > "All the former 7800 series Monitor roof cars now come with Molded plastic > roofs, & have been renumbered in the 6600 series." Again the date of this > book is 1973. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:32 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk% 40wmconnect.com> com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 7:46 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy > > it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides > > lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the slides > > directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve > > unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. > > > > You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, with > > using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be > > adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to start > > at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War > > (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go on > > to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 > > Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on the > > later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, > > even though some bear similar types (like "Observation"). Many of > > these earlier 6600 Pullman's appear at first glance to be > > predecessors of the same numbered 6600 Pullmans from the 1960's, but > > with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) may > > be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman, etc. I'll > > start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel > > I noticed that myself when I just received two 6600 series cars in the boxes > > from another member. Is there any difference between the original 6600 > series and the "intermediate" 7600 series? Both appear to have the same > sides folded under and the lower roof, although possibly there are > differences in the end castings? > > Previous cars I had/have with the folded under side I assumed to be 7600's. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6523	From: Charles Windes	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.

Ray It was very kind of you to share these pictures with us they are very intresting. Thanks CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] 60s era brass factory pix. > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:07:31 -0400 > > > As some of you may know I am retired military and spent 2 1/2 years in > Japan 1965-end of 1967 and got to know some of the brass builders. > Anyway, one of the "biggies" there was Seichii Kumata - who, BTW, > authored the 2 volume set "The Art of Brass". He was > an exporter/broker, middle-man, and factory owner. Almost all of the > imports by ALCO Models, Hallmark, Custom Brass, LMB, Lambert, some > Westside, Overland, NPP and more were contracted thru Kumata. While some > were made in his own factory, most were sub-contracted out, for example, > in the Tokyo district of Ochanomizu was an almost hidden model train > shop, Tetsudo Mokei Sha, but the back end was where almost all LMB > models were made. > > I made visits to Kumata's office in Tokyo, (usually to pick up a new > brass item ready for shipment) and one time I did get an invite to > visit his own factory about an hours drive out of Tokyo. The day I was > there they were assembling and testing brass Beyer-Garretts. BTW, 300 > were made with 100 going to PFM, 100 to Fulgarex in Europe and 100 to > Model Dockside in Australia. Of course I also got one for $25. > > He allowed me to take pictures which I have kept to myself for the most > part. I took 13, all B&W. However, since Kumata-san passed away in > 1998 and since the pix were taken some 40 years ago, I think some should > be seen if only for historical reasons. > > I have U/L 7 pictures labeled KF-1 thru KF-7 in a folder called "Brass > Factory". Or go direct: > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/10bd?c= > > > Ray Hobin > > NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX > Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine] > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6524	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.

Ray, Thank you for posting these treasured photos. Do you have a photo of Kumata-san? If so, would you post that too? Couldn't help noticing the huge, vintage, soldering iron. I inherited one of those, but I never for a second considered using it for HO brass. I guess I'll put that old iron pack into the modeling tool chest. The other oversized tool I could not help seeing, in 2 photos, was the monkey-wrench (spanner), or at least it sure looked like one. What was it used for? Thanks, Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jerrygart5" <jerryg@...> wrote: > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tcolret" <tcol@> wrote: > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oahurailway" <two.peaks@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks for sharing the very interesting photos Ray! They are > truly > > > rare & unique....And to think, not an Opti-Visor or airbrush in > sight! > > > > > > Ken > > > > You are most welcome...hope you, and others, noticed the large tip > on > > the soldering iron one of those petite Japanese workers had in her > > hands. One thing I learned from visiting Kumata's factory and that > of > > Mizuno, who owned MicroCast, was that when soldering brass, massive > > heat applied quickly was the answer, otherwise, one could "unsolder" > > what was already soldered. > > > > While, today my first love is 3-rail tinplate, in the past when I > > worked, repaired, ran a mail order operation and custom painted > under > > the trade name "Witchcraft Models" brass imports, my soldering iron > > had a 1/2 inch tip. Still have it, but rarely used. > > > > Regards to all and hope the group enjoys the pix I uploaded. > > > > Ray Hobin > > Ray-thanks for the pix; most interesting!! Lots of hand tools, and > as pointed out, BIG soldering iron and no airbrushing. I have some > of those '60's brass steam locomotives; most were beautiful to look > at, but a few were poor runners. NWSL gear sets and some cheap can > motors made everything much better. It will be intersting to see > where some of the "premium plastic" will be in about 50 years from > now. Thanks for sharing! Regards, JerryG > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6525	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

Interurban Units& Trailers 5650 . . Gas Electric (complete w/motor) 5651 . . Gas Electric Body Kit (less trucks) 5653 . . Trailer Car ______________________O______________________ Heavyweight Cars -- Milled Wood Roof -- 1939 - 1949 Cat'g # . Length . . . . . Style . . . . . . Road Name . . . . . . . . . 6601 . . 80' . . Observation Monitor Roof. . RDG, others . . . . . . . . 6602 . . 80' . . Pullman, 12-Section Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . 6603 . . 80' . . Pullman, 8-Section, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . 6604 . . 80' . . Observation, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6606 . . 80' . . Pullman, 13-Room, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . 6607 . . 80' . . Solarium, 3-Comp, 1-Draw, Buffet, Monitor Roof- . . . 6608 . . 54' . . Coach, Open End, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . 6609 . . 54' . . Postal Baggage, Open End, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . 6610 . . 80' . . Diner, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6613 . . 54' . . Baggage-Coach Combine, Open End, Monitor Roof . . . . 6614 . . 54' . . Baggage, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6615 . . 80' . . Diner, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6619 . . 60' . . Baggage, Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6620 . . 70' . . Baggage, Two Door, Monitor Roof . . RDG . . . . . . . 6621 . . 70' . . Baggage, Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6622 . . 60' . . Baggage, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6629 . . 70' . . Baggage-Postal Combine- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6630 . . 60' . . Postal, 2-Doors, 6-Windows- . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6640 . . 75' . . Coach, Single Window- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6642 . . 75' . . Combine, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6670 . . 75' . . Coach, Single Window, Monitor Roof. . . . . . . . . . . 6671 . . 75' . . Coach, Single Window, Arch Roof . . . . . . . . . . . 6672 . . 75' . . Coach, Paired Window, Monitor Roof- . NYC . . . . . . Try this out, will fill in the rest later. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6526	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Ambroid Glue

Don, You mentioned that Ambroid only made glue. I built several wood kits back in the early fifties when I first started in the hobby. One was an Ambroid stock car and is still running fine today. I presume that I used Ambroid glue which came inside the kit. After more than fifty years the Ambroid glue is still holding everything together with no problems. A couple of other kits I built, an Ambroid coach and a Silver Streak caboose, have totally fell apart. There are not two pieces still together. Every glue joint failed. I think they were built with Duco cement. Can anyone else verify this. I might have it backwards. It could be the Ambroid that failed and the Duco held up. Bill DeFoe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6527	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue

Bill, I am pretty sure you're right.   I rmemeber Duco - it was really meant more or less for plastic. Wasn't very good at that either, but the choices available to a kid(when I was using this kind of stuff) were limited.   Now I would use Weldbond(long praising monograph not included here) for most anything. Terrific stuff and multi-purpose. How long it has been on the market or whether it would qualify as "vintage," I have no idea. I've been using it for many things since 1980, when I became aware of it. Love it...   If Ambroid works for you, "stick" with it. I'd never try to use it on metal(which will work with Weldbond). though.   and Happy Modeling!   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> wrote: From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Glue To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 1:40 PM Don, You mentioned that Ambroid only made glue. I built several wood kits back in the early fifties when I first started in the hobby. One was an Ambroid stock car and is still running fine today. I presume that I used Ambroid glue which came inside the kit. After more than fifty years the Ambroid glue is still holding everything together with no problems. A couple of other kits I built, an Ambroid coach and a Silver Streak caboose, have totally fell apart. There are not two pieces still together. Every glue joint failed. I think they were built with Duco cement. Can anyone else verify this. I might have it backwards. It could be the Ambroid that failed and the Duco held up. Bill DeFoe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6528	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue

I found an epoxy adhesive at the Ace hardware store, called 'Weldit', by a company called Devcon. it comes in a white tube. Very handy when working with paper and wood models. Not only is it good for wood, paper, and metal, but it also is what I use to assemble Woodland Scenics trees. Anyone else here tried this stuff? -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote: > > Bill, I am pretty sure you're right. >   > I rmemeber Duco - it was really meant more or less for plastic. Wasn't very good at that either, but the choices available to a kid(when I was using this kind of stuff) were limited. >   > Now I would use Weldbond(long praising monograph not included here) for most anything. Terrific stuff and multi-purpose. How long it has been on the market or whether it would qualify as "vintage," I have no idea. I've been using it for many things since 1980, when I became aware of it. Love it... >   > If Ambroid works for you, "stick" with it. I'd never try to use it on metal(which will work with Weldbond). though. >   > and Happy Modeling! >   > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) > > --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> wrote: > > From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Glue > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 1:40 PM > > Don, > > You mentioned that Ambroid only made glue. I built several wood kits > back in the early fifties when I first started in the hobby. One was > an Ambroid stock car and is still running fine today. I presume that I > used Ambroid glue which came inside the kit. After more than fifty > years the Ambroid glue is still holding everything together with no > problems. > > A couple of other kits I built, an Ambroid coach and a Silver Streak > caboose, have totally fell apart. There are not two pieces still > together. Every glue joint failed. I think they were built with Duco > cement. > > Can anyone else verify this. I might have it backwards. It could be > the Ambroid that failed and the Duco held up. > > Bill DeFoe >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6529	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list

I found that I left out a few snips of information on a few of the early 6600 Series kits. I'm including that info here along with one I completely missed transcribing from my notes; please include this info with them. As you've noticed, kits # 6608, 6609, 6613 and 6614 do not really belong under Heavyweight Cars, but didn't know how else to list them and still keep them in numerical order. Also, in case you're wondering about the gap between #5651 and #5653, that's the Factory Assembled Gas-Electric Car (C&NW) -- #5652. Please add: #6629 should additionally read -- Monitor Roof #6630 should additonally read -- Monitor Roof #6631 60' Baggage Arch Roof #6640 should read -- 75' Baggage-Coach Combine, Single Window, Monitor Roof #6641 should read -- 75' Baggage-Coach Combine, Single Window, Arch Roof #6642 75' Baggage-Coach Combine, Paired Window, Monitor Roof That's it on that part. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Well it should be an interesting effort then as it sounds like they reused > the same numbers a few times. From this book I worked with there is a note > "All the former 7800 series Monitor roof cars now come with Molded plastic > roofs, & have been renumbered in the 6600 series." Again the date of this > book is 1973. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:32 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk% 40wmconnect.com> com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 7:46 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy > > it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides > > lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the slides > > directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve > > unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. > > > > You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, with > > using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be > > adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to start > > at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War > > (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go on > > to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 > > Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on the > > later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, > > even though some bear similar types (like "Observation"). Many of > > these earlier 6600 Pullman's appear at first glance to be > > predecessors of the same numbered 6600 Pullmans from the 1960's, but > > with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) may > > be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman, etc. I'll > > start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel > > I noticed that myself when I just received two 6600 series cars in the boxes > > from another member. Is there any difference between the original 6600 > series and the "intermediate" 7600 series? Both appear to have the same > sides folded under and the lower roof, although possibly there are > differences in the end castings? > > Previous cars I had/have with the folded under side I assumed to be 7600's. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6530	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue Subsitutes

I have never tried "Weldit" but I have great respect for Devcon products. I'm sure it's just fine. What about clean-up? Weldbond is easy... damp cloth for excess, water rinse for the brush(yes, I apply it with a real cheap "toy" brush).   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)   --- On Sat, 6/28/08, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: From: railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid Glue To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 2:00 PM I found an epoxy adhesive at the Ace hardware store, called 'Weldit', by a company called Devcon. it comes in a white tube. Very handy when working with paper and wood models. Not only is it good for wood, paper, and metal, but it also is what I use to assemble Woodland Scenics trees. Anyone else here tried this stuff? -Steve Neubaum

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6531	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

Continuing with the 7600 Series, first introduced in 1950 catalog. Heavyweight Cars -- post War (1950+) -- Wood Roof Catalog # . . Length . . . . . Style/Description . . . . . . . . . . . . 7601 . . . . . 80' . . . . Observation, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . 7602 . . . . . 80' . . . . Pullman, 12-Section, Monitor Roof . . . . . . 7603 . . . . . 80' . . . . Pullman, 8-Section, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . 7604 . . . . . 80' . . . . Observation, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . 7606 . . . . . 80' . . . . Pullman, 13 Room, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . 7607 . . . . . 80' . . . . Solarium, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . 7610 . . . . . 80' . . . . Diner, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7615 . . . . . 80' . . . . Diner, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . Baggage, Postal and Baggage-Postal Combines 7619 . . . . . 60' . . . . Baggage, Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7620 . . . . . 70' . . . . Baggage, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . 7621 . . . . . 70' . . . . Baggage, Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . . 7622 . . . . . 60' . . . . Baggage, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . 7628 . . . . . 70' . . . . Postal Baggage, Arch Roof . . . . . . . . . 7629 . . . . . 70' . . . . Postal Baggage, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . 7630 . . . . . 60' . . . . Postal, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . 7631 . . . . . 60' . . . . Postal, Arch Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . Shorties -- Coaches and Combines 7640 . . . . . 75' . . . . Combine, Single Window, Monitor Roof- . . . 7641 . . . . . 75' . . . . Combine, Single Window, Arch Roof . . . . . 7642 . . . . . 75' . . . . Combine, Paired Window, Monitor Roof- . . . 7643 . . . . . 75' . . . . Combine, Paired Window, Arch Roof . . . . . 7660 . . . . . 57' . . . . Short Coach, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . 7661 . . . . . 57' . . . . Short Coacyh Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . . 7662 . . . . . 57' . . . . Short Combine, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . ./ 7663 . . . . . 57' . . . . Short Combine, Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . 7670 . . . . . 75' . . . . Coach, Single Window, Monitor Roof- . . . . 7671 . . . . . 75' . . . . Coach, Single Window, Arch Roof . . . . . . 7672 . . . . . 75' . . . . Coach, Paired Window, Monitor Roof- . . . . 7673 . . . . . 75' . . . . Coach, Paired Window, Arch Roof . . . . . . That's all I have in that Series. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6532	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

In keeping with the catalog numbers in order, there are two gas electrics: Catalog # . . . . Description 6450 . . . . . Gas/Electric (Doodle-Bug), C&NW (similar also to M&StL, CB&Q, AT&SF, MILW and NYC 6454 . . . . . 3-Truck Articulated Gas/Electric (Shuttle-Jack), Factory Assembled and pre-Painted First seen in the 1961 Catalog (although they may have been earlier): PUG 56' Passenger Cars -- Designed for Short (14") Radius Operation Cat'g # . . Length . . . . . Style/Color 7701G . . . . 56' . . . . Postal -- Pullman Green- . . . . . . . . . . 7701R . . . . 56' . . . . Postal -- Pennsylvania Red . . . . . . . . . 7702G . . . . 56' . . . . Baggage - Pullman Green- . . . . . . . . . . 7702R . . . . 56' . . . . Baggage - Pennsylvania Red . . . . . . . . . 7703G . . . . 56' . . . . Combine - Pullman Green- . . . . . . . . . , 7703R . . . . 56' . . . . Combine - Pennsylvania Red . . . . . . . . . 7703Y . . . . 56' . . . . Combine - Union Pacific Yellow . . . . . . . 7704G . . . . 56' . . . . Coach -- Pullman Green . . . . . . . . . . . 7704R . . . . 56' . . . . Coach -- Pennsylvania Red- . . . . . . . . . 7704Y . . . . 56' . . . . Coach -- Union Pacific Yellow- . . . . . . . 7705G . . . . 56' . . . . Diner -- Pullman Green . . . . . . . . . . . 7705R . . . . 56' . . . . Diner -- Pennsylvania Red- . . . . . . . . . 7706G . . . . 56' . . . . Pullman -- Pullman Green . . . . . . . . . . 7706R . . . . 56' . . . . Pullman -- Pennsylvania Red- . . . . . . . . 7707G . . . . 56' . . . . Observation -- Pullman Green . . . . . . . , 7707R . . . . 56' . . . . Observation -- Pennsylvania Red- . . . . . . 7707Y . . . . 56' . . . . Observation -- Union Pacific Yellow- . . . . That's all until I get into the 7800 Series. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6533	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > Don, Now that you mention it, the early 6600 Series match up with > the intermediate 7600 Series. They all appear to just be carry > overs. I can't figure then why they'd bother changing the catalog > numbers, except that they may have thrown in a few improvements. Ray > In other words, I'm assuming you can't tell the difference between a 6600 (1939-1949) and a 7600 (1950-1958) unless you have the box or paper. An interesting variation, there exist 7800 series cars with the older M133 low roof. Walthers offered the option of substituting the low roof in your 7800 kit when you ordered it if you wanted to match your existing 7600 cars. Add an "L" to the end of any 7800 series number. (source, 1960 Walthers catalog). OTOH, there are also probably many people like me who've put the taller M381 roof on 6600/7600 series cars. :-) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6534	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue

Ambroid car kits were supposedly a marketing tool to get Ambroid cement into the hands of modelers. Apparently it was mainly an industrial glue. It is an acetate cement--same family of adhesives as Duco, Testor's Formulas A and B, They were good for wood models as they did not induce warping like the water-based glues. Speed of setting, and joining of non-porous materials was also an issue. (Why was it that we couldn't buy "Katzenjammer Glue"? That held everything, forever. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:40 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Glue > Don, > > You mentioned that Ambroid only made glue. I built several wood kits > back in the early fifties when I first started in the hobby. One was > an Ambroid stock car and is still running fine today. I presume that I > used Ambroid glue which came inside the kit. After more than fifty > years the Ambroid glue is still holding everything together with no > problems. > > A couple of other kits I built, an Ambroid coach and a Silver Streak > caboose, have totally fell apart. There are not two pieces still > together. Every glue joint failed. I think they were built with Duco > cement. > > Can anyone else verify this. I might have it backwards. It could be > the Ambroid that failed and the Duco held up. > > Bill DeFoe > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6535	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue

The Silver Streak caboose could definitely have fallen apart. Since we didn't have any good adhesives that would hold metal to wood, that would happen. Thus my comment re "Katzenjammer Glue" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6536	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Ray et al-- A thousand thanks for all the feedback! Newton, not Norton is in my eBay Favorites. Just a little intrusion of the old Alzheimer's there in my post. The Ambroid NYO&W milk car kit was the first I'd seen the Quality Craft Model ID within an Ambroid box but then again, I've put together only five Ambroid kits, so it threw me for a loop. I'll have to check the other three Ambroid kits I've got waiting for construction (I have about 20 kits total waiting their turn). I've also got a bid in on a lot of nine Ambroid and Quality Craft Models, so if I win, I'll be curious to see how they shake out. They appear to be incomplete kits for the most part and their boxes seem to be much abused, so I'd be doing a lot of homebrew parts manufacturing. Still, as long as the important parts (roof, body, frames) are there, they should be lots of fun. Most of them are post-period (I model 1800s up to about 1950) but I still enjoy a good kit even if I can't use it on my layout. As a follow-up question, what manufacturers of quality HO rolling stock kits are in business these days? I'm familiar with the modern plastic kits (e.g., Athern, Proto, Accurail) which I stay away from since they are, to me, child's play(sri - a little arrogance here) but I understand there are still makers of highly sophisticated wood kits (laser cut kits). Bethlehem? I've heard talk of LaBelle but have never constructed one of their kits. Northeastern seems to be strictly buildings (I scratchbuild my own for the most part, kitbash the rest). I am not yet up to scratchbuilding rolling stock. Oh, it happens I have with me the box and instruction sheet of that Japanese passenger car model (the model is down in my storage shed in the AZ desert): the label states, "International Models, Inc. America's Leading Hobbyologists 33 union Square, W. (16th Street & Broadway) New York 3, N.Y.". The instructions (I keep ALL instruction sheets in a big fat file of their own) are printed on cheap yellow rice paper and were obviously written by an "English as a second language" type (e.g., "HO gauge Open Enders Short and loaded with glamour!" [sic], "cellophne", "couplar", "scoch tape" [I kid you not!]). No other identifying information came with the kit. The couplers that came with it were of a type such as I hadn't seen since I played with my father's old 1920s vintage S gauge toy railroad as a kid. I did a Google on International Models, Inc. and came up with a lot of hits on etiquette and clothing models :-D but nothing on model railroading. Fred Stevens Prescott, AZ At 12:28 PM +0000 28/6/08, erieberk wrote: >Fred, While I don't believe there's a comprehensive listing for >Ambroid (or Quality Craft, Northeastern or Gloor Craft) in our >archives that I can recall, we would all like nothing better than to >have such comprehensive lists on all early H0 kit manufacturers. To >this end, some of us are slowly adding this info, but it can be time >consuming as it involves much research even though some of us have >near-complete collections of many manufacturers. Ongoing projects >like this, delving into the products (and history's?) of all the >manufacturers could easily turn into a full time job. Maybe some day >we'll get it all done <g>. > >You might want to change the "Norton" name to M. Dale Newton in your >list of eBay Favorites, unless you just happened to mispell it this >time. There are so many more to look for, but without knowing your >level of quality preferences, I'd hesitate to make suggestions on >them. To me, I find them all interesting and worthy >of "squirreling," if that only includes a few examples of each. I'd >guess you might be referring to IMP (International Model Products) or >Takara or Tenshodo when you point out the nail construction on that >Japanese kit. > >Looking forward to your further posts as you dig up more old stuff. >Don't hesitate with inquiring about any as we enjoy that part of >I.D.ing them. Ray Wetzel -- 73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD, VO2FS http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6537	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Gary et al-- There's a brief history of Weaver models at http://www.weavermodels.com/page51.html . It's too bad that Weaver/Quality Craft Models switched to O gauge only. They put out a fine product. It's good to hear Bob Weaver is still with us. I sort of developed a personal relationship with him when I saw his signature on his QCM instruction sheets. He must be in his 80s or 90s by now. I oughtta ask him if he still honors his guarantee to replace missing parts for his HO kits :-D . Thanks! Fred At 8:20 PM -0700 27/6/08, Gary Woodard wrote: >Hi Fred, > >The old Athearn/ Menzies kits, especially the O scale kits, were all built using wood underlay, with metal parts attached using nails, so even some of the best old American kits were put together with nails. > >If you want a good history of Quality Craft Models, Bob Weaver is still around and would probably be glad to answer any questions you might have.....:o) > >Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6538	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ambroid Glue > Ambroid car kits were supposedly a marketing tool to get Ambroid cement > into > the hands of modelers. Apparently it was mainly an industrial glue. It > is > an acetate cement--same family of adhesives as Duco, Testor's Formulas A > and > B, They were good for wood models as they did not induce warping like the > water-based glues. Speed of setting, and joining of non-porous materials > was also an issue. (Why was it that we couldn't buy "Katzenjammer Glue"? > That held everything, forever. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:40 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Glue I was never a fan of Ambroid, not real keen on "Goo" either. Ambroid seemed to me to get brittle with age, and goo never really cures (supposedly the reason it's strong is because it stays flexible.) I stick with plain old Elmers for wood to wood, and contact cement for dissimilar materials. If I need something REALLY strong I'll go to a two part epoxy. I'm told Ambroid was originally made from recycled movie film, which gave it it's distinctive amber color, which is where the "Ambroid" name came from. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6539	From: erieberk	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list

I probably should have clarified that better. What I meant was that there are no differences in the catalog descriptions of the early 6600 Series and the 7600 Series, when comparing any particular kit number (in the catalogs) with its kit number counterpart in the later catalogs. All descriptions match almost word for word. I haven't actually compared the physical kits with each other (if that's what you mean) to eye them up; I don't have any of the early 6600 Series cars. Interesting about the roof choices in the 7800's. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > > In other words, I'm assuming you can't tell the difference between a 6600 > (1939-1949) and a 7600 (1950-1958) unless you have the box or paper. > > An interesting variation, there exist 7800 series cars with the older M133 > low roof. Walthers offered the option of substituting the low roof in your > 7800 kit when you ordered it if you wanted to match your existing 7600 cars. > Add an "L" to the end of any 7800 series number. (source, 1960 Walthers > catalog). > > OTOH, there are also probably many people like me who've put the taller M381 > roof on 6600/7600 series cars. :-) > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6540	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/28/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Hi Fred, Bob turned over the operation to his son in law, thats why most of the O scale line went to 3 rail over 2 rail O scale, I guess Weaver is more popular than ever now, at least with O gaugers..........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6541	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

As for missing parts in those Ambroid kits, if you can determine which parts need replacing they could be traced (outlined) by any of us having those same kits and you could re-make them if they were wood. If they're metal castings, perhaps you could improvise using another present day manufacturer's detail parts. Well engineered craftsman kits such as Ambroid (whether under this or any other label) are great to assemble in the satisfaction gained. Have fun putting them all together. I have a good number of them myself, but never acquired them with the idea of completing a collection of this line as there were some cars I had no need for on a layout. The odd coupler you came across in your Japanese IMP kit is called a "Kupeeze" coupler. I believe this was also called a Baker coupler, if memory serves, or perhaps tyhe Baker coupler was very similar to this, I don't quite recall. There's an article on this coupler in the files. Back in late January, early February, there was some discussion on IMP (Takara, Tenshodo, etc., -- all closely associated) cars and again in mid February. You should be able to find something on them in the archives. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > > Ray et al-- > > A thousand thanks for all the feedback! Newton, not Norton is in my eBay Favorites. Just a little intrusion of the old Alzheimer's there in my post. > > The Ambroid NYO&W milk car kit was the first I'd seen the Quality Craft Model ID within an Ambroid box but then again, I've put together only five Ambroid kits, so it threw me for a loop. I'll have to check the other three Ambroid kits I've got waiting for construction (I have about 20 kits total waiting their turn). I've also got a bid in on a lot of nine Ambroid and Quality Craft Models, so if I win, I'll be curious to see how they shake out. They appear to be incomplete kits for the most part and their boxes seem to be much abused, so I'd be doing a lot of homebrew parts manufacturing. Still, as long as the important parts (roof, body, frames) are there, they should be lots of fun. Most of them are post-period (I model 1800s up to about 1950) but I still enjoy a good kit even if I can't use it on my layout. > > As a follow-up question, what manufacturers of quality HO rolling stock kits are in business these days? I'm familiar with the modern plastic kits (e.g., Athern, Proto, Accurail) which I stay away from since they are, to me, child's play(sri - a little arrogance here) but I understand there are still makers of highly sophisticated wood kits (laser cut kits). Bethlehem? I've heard talk of LaBelle but have never constructed one of their kits. Northeastern seems to be strictly buildings (I scratchbuild my own for the most part, kitbash the rest). I am not yet up to scratchbuilding rolling stock. > > Oh, it happens I have with me the box and instruction sheet of that Japanese passenger car model (the model is down in my storage shed in the AZ desert): the label states, "International Models, Inc. America's Leading Hobbyologists 33 union Square, W. (16th Street & Broadway) New York 3, N.Y.". The instructions (I keep ALL instruction sheets in a big fat file of their own) are printed on cheap yellow rice paper and were obviously written by an "English as a second language" type (e.g., "HO gauge Open Enders Short and loaded with glamour!" [sic], "cellophne", "couplar", "scoch tape" [I kid you not!]). No other identifying information came with the kit. The couplers that came with it were of a type such as I hadn't seen since I played with my father's old 1920s vintage S gauge toy railroad as a kid. > > I did a Google on International Models, Inc. and came up with a lot of hits on etiquette and clothing models :-D but nothing on model railroading. > > Fred Stevens > Prescott, AZ > > At 12:28 PM +0000 28/6/08, erieberk wrote: > >Fred, While I don't believe there's a comprehensive listing for > >Ambroid (or Quality Craft, Northeastern or Gloor Craft) in our > >archives that I can recall, we would all like nothing better than to > >have such comprehensive lists on all early H0 kit manufacturers. To > >this end, some of us are slowly adding this info, but it can be time > >consuming as it involves much research even though some of us have > >near-complete collections of many manufacturers. Ongoing projects > >like this, delving into the products (and history's?) of all the > >manufacturers could easily turn into a full time job. Maybe some day > >we'll get it all done <g>. > > > >You might want to change the "Norton" name to M. Dale Newton in your > >list of eBay Favorites, unless you just happened to mispell it this > >time. There are so many more to look for, but without knowing your > >level of quality preferences, I'd hesitate to make suggestions on > >them. To me, I find them all interesting and worthy > >of "squirreling," if that only includes a few examples of each. I'd > >guess you might be referring to IMP (International Model Products) or > >Takara or Tenshodo when you point out the nail construction on that > >Japanese kit. > > > >Looking forward to your further posts as you dig up more old stuff. > >Don't hesitate with inquiring about any as we enjoy that part of > >I.D.ing them. Ray Wetzel > > -- > 73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD, VO2FS > http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6542	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue

By this (movie film derivative) then, can it be taken that the "oid" part of the Ambroid name may have come from "celluloid"? Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I was never a fan of Ambroid, not real keen on "Goo" either. Ambroid seemed > to me to get brittle with age, and goo never really cures (supposedly the > reason it's strong is because it stays flexible.) > > I stick with plain old Elmers for wood to wood, and contact cement for > dissimilar materials. If I need something REALLY strong I'll go to a two > part epoxy. > > I'm told Ambroid was originally made from recycled movie film, which gave it > it's distinctive amber color, which is where the "Ambroid" name came from. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6543	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

Hi Ray, Below the _____ O ____ are those O gauge cars? Thanks,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 1:16 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers List   Interurban Units& Trailers 5650 . . Gas Electric (complete w/motor) 5651 . . Gas Electric Body Kit (less trucks) 5653 . . Trailer Car ____________ _________ _O_______ _________ ______ Heavyweight Cars -- Milled Wood Roof -- 1939 - 1949 Cat'g # . Length . . . . . Style . . . . . . Road Name . . . . . . . . . 6601 . . 80' . . Observation Monitor Roof. . RDG, others . . . . . . . . 6602 . . 80' . . Pullman, 12-Section Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . 6603 . . 80' . . Pullman, 8-Section, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . 6604 . . 80' . . Observation, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6606 . . 80' . . Pullman, 13-Room, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . 6607 . . 80' . . Solarium, 3-Comp, 1-Draw, Buffet, Monitor Roof- . . . 6608 . . 54' . . Coach, Open End, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . 6609 . . 54' . . Postal Baggage, Open End, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . 6610 . . 80' . . Diner, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6613 . . 54' . . Baggage-Coach Combine, Open End, Monitor Roof . . . . 6614 . . 54' . . Baggage, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6615 . . 80' . . Diner, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6619 . . 60' . . Baggage, Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6620 . . 70' . . Baggage, Two Door, Monitor Roof . . RDG . . . . . . . 6621 . . 70' . . Baggage, Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6622 . . 60' . . Baggage, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6629 . . 70' . . Baggage-Postal Combine- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6630 . . 60' . . Postal, 2-Doors, 6-Windows- . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6640 . . 75' . . Coach, Single Window- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6642 . . 75' . . Combine, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6670 . . 75' . . Coach, Single Window, Monitor Roof. . . . . . . . . . . 6671 . . 75' . . Coach, Single Window, Arch Roof . . . . . . . . . . . 6672 . . 75' . . Coach, Paired Window, Monitor Roof- . NYC . . . . . .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6544	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.

Walter J. Bayer II asked: >Thank you for posting these treasured photos. Do you have a photo of >Kumata-san? If so, would you post that too? Unfortunately, I never took a pix of him at all and I kick myself because I had ample opportunity one Sunday afternoon. We had him, his wife and 2 young children over to our military housing for a steak cook-out topped by my wife's home-made apple pie. To this day I cannot fathom why I never took any pix. Kumata-san was a rather dignified man...probably his family was part of Japanese aristocracy. His favorite drink was Remy Martin. He always wore a suit and tie. Rather tall for a Japanese man...I would guess 6'. I was 5'10" then and he was taller than I. His written and spoken English was impeccable. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6545	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Ray, I do exactly that for parts replacement. I maintain a large stockpile of wood and metal stock for this purpose and to construct add-on details (e.g., support flange on USRA 55-ton coal hoppers). Only in a couple instances have I found parts missing from these old kits I have scrounged. Most parts I've had to replace are lost due to my own carelessness (I screwed up and mis-cut or over sanded), my 20-month old kitten has deemed a part worthy enough to warrant chewing exercise, or said kitten has decided a part is attractive and has batted it onto the floor (where parts are lost forever) :-D . Many thanks for the info on the Kupeeze/Baker coupler. I'll check out the file. I think I kept the couplers somewhere in my extra parts boxes; I have the unfortunate habit of not throwing ANYTHING out, a character flaw which has gotten me into a lot of trouble when it's time to move. :-D On the other hand, I have constructed whole cars from leftover parts. Fred Stevens At 10:40 AM +0000 29/6/08, erieberk wrote: >As for missing parts in those Ambroid kits, if you can determine >which parts need replacing they could be traced (outlined) by any of >us having those same kits and you could re-make them if they were >wood. If they're metal castings, perhaps you could improvise using >another present day manufacturer's detail parts. > >Well engineered craftsman kits such as Ambroid (whether under this or >any other label) are great to assemble in the satisfaction gained. >Have fun putting them all together. I have a good number of them >myself, but never acquired them with the idea of completing a >collection of this line as there were some cars I had no need for on >a layout. > >The odd coupler you came across in your Japanese IMP kit is called >a "Kupeeze" coupler. I believe this was also called a Baker coupler, >if memory serves, or perhaps tyhe Baker coupler was very similar to >this, I don't quite recall. There's an article on this coupler in >the files. Back in late January, early February, there was some >discussion on IMP (Takara, Tenshodo, etc., -- all closely associated) >cars and again in mid February. You should be able to find something >on them in the archives. Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6546	From: holat88	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Hobbytown Alco kit info request

Hey Gang, I recently picked up a couple of old Hobbytown Kits (RSD-5 & RS-3)and would like to hear any suggestions (tricks , tips) regarding building them from anyone who has had past experience. Thanks, Howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6547	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Alco kit info request

Howard-congrats!  These things run and pull wonderfully if built properly.  Most critical is the assembly of the power trucks.   Simply follow the directions to the letter and don’t try and second guess.  The bearings (both on the drive shafts and the truck axles)  need to fit nice and snug (not tight, and for sure not sloppy loose) in the slots of the truck assembly.  File a little at a time, and check frequently of the snug fits.  Be sure and clean out the slots of filings each time you check for the fit.   At final assembly of each truck, the wheels should roll fairly easy when you push each truck  down the track.   Do expect some noise when it’s all put together, however-since the gears are all brass.  Lubricate the gears  sparingly with a thick oil-such as the LaBelle Gear Oil.    Other than that, nothing magic about them.  I have the RS3 (30+ years old now) and a GP-7 (with Athearn shell; 20+ years old) that are two of my best runners.  Enjoy!!   JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of holat88 Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 10:15 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Alco kit info request   Hey Gang, I recently picked up a couple of old Hobbytown Kits (RSD-5 & RS-3)and would like to hear any suggestions (tricks , tips) regarding building them from anyone who has had past experience. Thanks, Howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6548	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 11:33 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list >I probably should have clarified that better. What I meant was that > there are no differences in the catalog descriptions of the early > 6600 Series and the 7600 Series, when comparing any particular kit > number (in the catalogs) with its kit number counterpart in the later > catalogs. All descriptions match almost word for word. I haven't > actually compared the physical kits with each other (if that's what > you mean) to eye them up; I don't have any of the early 6600 Series > cars. Interesting about the roof choices in the 7800's. Ray W. I have some that I KNOW are 6600's, some that I am not sure of, because of the hiatus in production during the War years, I'd assume the 7600's are more common. I cannot tell any difference between my known cars and my unknowns, I have a hard time believing they are ALL pre 1950. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6549	From: Chris B	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Alco kit info request

Howard, everything Jerry said is right on target, from what my meager one year of experience with hobbytown drives goes, but I've got a dozen built units and as many kits on the bench right now, so here's my two cents. do you have the instructions? many of the earlier hobbytown instr sheets are on the ho seeker site. overfiling is the only fatal error, just like Jerry said, be cautious. if you can, see if you can borrow an assembled running unit, that was the trick I needed to get my first kit assembled and running smoothly.  Don't take it apart (!), just take the shell off and rotate all the moving parts by hand for reference...I bought some used built units on ebay of the same model as my GP kits, and they really helped me to see what was supposed to be tight, and what could be loose. also, take note of which generation of hobbytown drives you're working on, the early drives have no flywheels, rubber shaft fittings, and the gear tower faces away from the motor, making it a much looser assembly overall, with the gear shaft at the top of the tower slipping in and out of synch if the rubber fitting isn't tight. later drives had gear towers facing the motor, which held all the gears in place better, flywheels, and great plastic /brass sliding universal drives.  these are a big improvement, and the only used units I look for now have these features. even later were can motors and plastic gears, but I've only seen those, not built one, so I can't say much about their assembly. --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Jerry Garteiser <jerryg@...> wrote: From: Jerry Garteiser <jerryg@...> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Alco kit info request To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 11:33 AM Howard-congrats!  These things run and pull wonderfully if built properly.  Most critical is the assembly of the power trucks.   Simply follow the directions to the letter and don’t try and second guess.  The bearings (both on the drive shafts and the truck axles)  need to fit nice and snug (not tight, and for sure not sloppy loose) in the slots of the truck assembly.  File a little at a time, and check frequently of the snug fits.  Be sure and clean out the slots of filings each time you check for the fit.   At final assembly of each truck, the wheels should roll fairly easy when you push each truck  down the track.   Do expect some noise when it’s all put together, however-since the gears are all brass.  Lubricate the gears  sparingly with a thick oil-such as the LaBelle Gear Oil.    Other than that, nothing magic about them.  I have the RS3 (30+ years old now) and a GP-7 (with Athearn shell; 20+ years old) that are two of my best runners.  Enjoy!!   JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of holat88 Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 10:15 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Alco kit info request   Hey Gang, I recently picked up a couple of old Hobbytown Kits (RSD-5 & RS-3)and would like to hear any suggestions (tricks , tips) regarding building them from anyone who has had past experience. Thanks, Howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6550	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

Hi Chuck, Nope, just my feeble attempt to put in some kind of divider. Wouldn't dare post vintage 0 gauge here on Vintage H0; do you think I want to get black-balled? <g>. Funny thing you should mention that though. About a month ago, I placed a successful bid on what I believe to be an old Walthers wood & cast metal H0 O/B box car kit (#3880). While it didn't mention the scale, it was listed with a bunch of old Walthers H0. I should have asked, or at the least, should have looked it up in my catalogs (the Walthers 1946 catalog is dual guage), but I didn't think that much about it. Sure enough, when it was delivered I found it was 0 scale. Sure, they'd take it back, but with the postage I had to pay again to ship it back, I felt I was better off keeping it. Might just put it together some day for a display piece and decal it for one of my favorite Roads. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Below the _____ O ____ are those O gauge cars? > > Thanks, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 1:16 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers List > > > > Interurban Units& Trailers > > 5650 . . Gas Electric (complete w/motor) > > 5651 . . Gas Electric Body Kit (less trucks) > > 5653 . . Trailer Car > > ______________________O______________________ > > Heavyweight Cars -- Milled Wood Roof -- 1939 - 1949 > > Cat'g # . Length . . . . . Style . . . . . . Road Name . . . . . . . . . > > 6601 . . 80' . . Observation Monitor Roof. . RDG, others . . . . . . . . > 6602 . . 80' . . Pullman, 12-Section Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . > 6603 . . 80' . . Pullman, 8-Section, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . > 6604 . . 80' . . Observation, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6606 . . 80' . . Pullman, 13-Room, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . > 6607 . . 80' . . Solarium, 3-Comp, 1-Draw, Buffet, Monitor Roof- . . . > 6608 . . 54' . . Coach, Open End, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6609 . . 54' . . Postal Baggage, Open End, Monitor Roof- . . . . . . . > 6610 . . 80' . . Diner, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6613 . . 54' . . Baggage-Coach Combine, Open End, Monitor Roof . . . . > 6614 . . 54' . . Baggage, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6615 . . 80' . . Diner, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6619 . . 60' . . Baggage, Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6620 . . 70' . . Baggage, Two Door, Monitor Roof . . RDG . . . . . . . > 6621 . . 70' . . Baggage, Arch Roof- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6622 . . 60' . . Baggage, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6629 . . 70' . . Baggage-Postal Combine- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6630 . . 60' . . Postal, 2-Doors, 6-Windows- . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6640 . . 75' . . Coach, Single Window- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6642 . . 75' . . Combine, Monitor Roof . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 6670 . . 75' . . Coach, Single Window, Monitor Roof. . . . . . . . . . . > 6671 . . 75' . . Coach, Single Window, Arch Roof . . . . . . . . . . . > 6672 . . 75' . . Coach, Paired Window, Monitor Roof- . NYC . . . . . . >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6551	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

Ah Yes . . . the imfamous black-hole flooring. There's one under every workbench. Drop any kind of model piece at all -- it doesn't have to be Japanese -- and its Syonara! That reminds me of an old helpful trick to prevent losing those flying truck springs when we used to assemble them. I don't think there are any truck kits like that anymore. By now, I'm sure many guys know this, but for those who don't, just run a long piece of thread through the coil springs before you attempt to assemble them to the side-frames. If they do take off (and why wouldn't they?), its a lot easier finding a long length of string, especially if its brightly colored. To have just a spring go flying you might as well chaulk it up to it being lost in space, as you'll never find it again. If you need a tracing of any wood parts you may have lost, let me know, if I have that kit I could send you a tracing if you're in a bind. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > > Ray, I do exactly that for parts replacement. I maintain a large stockpile of wood and metal stock for this purpose and to construct add-on details (e.g., support flange on USRA 55-ton coal hoppers). Only in a couple instances have I found parts missing from these old kits I have scrounged. Most parts I've had to replace are lost due to my own carelessness (I screwed up and mis-cut or over sanded), my 20- month old kitten has deemed a part worthy enough to warrant chewing exercise, or said kitten has decided a part is attractive and has batted it onto the floor (where parts are lost forever) :-D . > > Many thanks for the info on the Kupeeze/Baker coupler. I'll check out the file. I think I kept the couplers somewhere in my extra parts boxes; I have the unfortunate habit of not throwing ANYTHING out, a character flaw which has gotten me into a lot of trouble when it's time to move. :-D On the other hand, I have constructed whole cars from leftover parts. > > Fred Stevens > > At 10:40 AM +0000 29/6/08, erieberk wrote: > >As for missing parts in those Ambroid kits, if you can determine > >which parts need replacing they could be traced (outlined) by any of > >us having those same kits and you could re-make them if they were > >wood. If they're metal castings, perhaps you could improvise using > >another present day manufacturer's detail parts. > > > >Well engineered craftsman kits such as Ambroid (whether under this or > >any other label) are great to assemble in the satisfaction gained. > >Have fun putting them all together. I have a good number of them > >myself, but never acquired them with the idea of completing a > >collection of this line as there were some cars I had no need for on > >a layout. > > > >The odd coupler you came across in your Japanese IMP kit is called > >a "Kupeeze" coupler. I believe this was also called a Baker coupler, > >if memory serves, or perhaps tyhe Baker coupler was very similar to > >this, I don't quite recall. There's an article on this coupler in > >the files. Back in late January, early February, there was some > >discussion on IMP (Takara, Tenshodo, etc., -- all closely associated) > >cars and again in mid February. You should be able to find something > >on them in the archives. Ray W. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6552	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

Hi Ray, Don't knock O scale now, I spent many years modeling in O scale......:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6553	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list

As H0 really didn't start to take off with gusto until the late '40's-- early '50's, it would be my guess too that the 7600's are more common, even though the 6600's were produced into 1949. Its understandable though, that you can't distinguish between the two "different" series of cars if they're that similar. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > I have some that I KNOW are 6600's, some that I am not sure of, because of > the hiatus in production during the War years, I'd assume the 7600's are > more common. I cannot tell any difference between my known cars and my > unknowns, I have a hard time believing they are ALL pre 1950. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6554	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

Nope, didn't say a word against it -- just that it would be WAY off topic here. Can't beat it for adding detail, if you have the room to run it (I don't). Best, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Don't knock O scale now, I spent many years modeling in O scale......:o) > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6555	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

I've bought a few older kits which required truck assembly with those itty-bitty springs. WHEN (not "if") I lose a spring, I replace it with a spare spring from a Kadee #11 Ultra Pack of #5 couplers which has a little capsule (Benedryl-sized) with extra springs. Then I lose those. I can hear them hit the floor but to where they bounce is a long unsolved mystery The string-in-a-spring technique is a great idea! However, I've found my arthritic fingers have their limitations so even though I give it a shot to assemble the trucks, I end up installing factory-assembled trucks. For me, what is worse than lost springs are those occasions when I've just spent two hours scratch-building a gazillion grab rails from .015" brass wire for a caboose only to have my kitten or my own clumsiness knock the whole lot onto the floor. Earthquake (my kitten earned her name) doesn't know any better but I don't have an excuse. So far, Ray, I've been able to design and manufacture almost all the parts I've needed (I've got an engineering background). Biggest problem is finding the wood or metal stock for raw materials. The Arizona model railroad and hobby stores to which I've gone (which is most of them) have had much of what I've needed but now I'm getting into some specialized requirements (grated pilots, wood frame channels and ells and zees, simulated wood car sides). While I can order all that stuff online, I prefer to look at it up close before purchase to visually determine if a particular item will fit my needs. I'm gonna bite the bullet and swallow my pride this fall and hit a couple of the large chain craft stores such as Michael's and Joanne's to see if they stock some of this stuff. With the exception of really, really tiny parts (say, tiny levers or fasteners or marker brackets) which on a 1:1 prototype might be only a couple inches in size, I've been able to hold my own construction-wise. Springs are a notable exception. X;{ Your description of black-hole flooring tickled my humor button. I'm a fulltime RVer, haul my travel trailer home wherever I go (my 8'x18' HO layout is outside at my winter desert parking site, cleverly protected by canvas and wood covering). Some months ago, a well-meaning friend told me I really needed to have a carpeted floor over my present white vinyl floor (which, at least gives me a fighting chance to recover lost parts). It took me some time to explain to her that carpet is the LAST thing a model craftsman needs. And, no, a magnet will not pick up brass nor pot metal nor wood parts lost on the floor. Yes, a vacuum cleaner would work very well to pick up lost tiny parts but would she be willing to sift through all the spilled cat food, kitty litter, dust, dirt, and other pieces of detritus which would also be picked up? Gotta love this hobby! Fred Stevens At 5:39 PM +0000 29/6/08, erieberk wrote: >Ah Yes . . . the imfamous black-hole flooring. There's one under >every workbench. Drop any kind of model piece at all -- it doesn't >have to be Japanese -- and its Syonara! That reminds me of an old >helpful trick to prevent losing those flying truck springs when we >used to assemble them. I don't think there are any truck kits like >that anymore. By now, I'm sure many guys know this, but for those >who don't, just run a long piece of thread through the coil springs >before you attempt to assemble them to the side-frames. If they do >take off (and why wouldn't they?), its a lot easier finding a long >length of string, especially if its brightly colored. To have just a >spring go flying you might as well chaulk it up to it being lost in >space, as you'll never find it again. If you need a tracing of any >wood parts you may have lost, let me know, if I have that kit I could >send you a tracing if you're in a bind. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6556	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Walthers metal pass cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Walthers tinplate kits over the years You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Walthers%20metal%20pass%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6557	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list

Ray, I have added what you have posted.  The four cars that are not Heavyweight Cars, are they light weight cars then?  I put them in that category.  While I have just added each to the bottom of the file, I can resort and put the 1939 list first.  And put the 1973 section last.  I am waiting until we have it all and then will resort. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 2:11 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers list   I found that I left out a few snips of information on a few of the early 6600 Series kits. I'm including that info here along with one I completely missed transcribing from my notes; please include this info with them. As you've noticed, kits # 6608, 6609, 6613 and 6614 do not really belong under Heavyweight Cars, but didn't know how else to list them and still keep them in numerical order. Also, in case you're wondering about the gap between #5651 and #5653, that's the Factory Assembled Gas-Electric Car (C&NW) -- #5652. Please add: #6629 should additionally read -- Monitor Roof #6630 should additonally read -- Monitor Roof #6631 60' Baggage Arch Roof #6640 should read -- 75' Baggage-Coach Combine, Single Window, Monitor Roof #6641 should read -- 75' Baggage-Coach Combine, Single Window, Arch Roof #6642 75' Baggage-Coach Combine, Paired Window, Monitor Roof That's it on that part. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Well it should be an interesting effort then as it sounds like they reused > the same numbers a few times. From this book I worked with there is a note > "All the former 7800 series Monitor roof cars now come with Molded plastic > roofs, & have been renumbered in the 6600 series." Again the date of this > book is 1973. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of Don Dellmann > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:32 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect . <mailto:erieberk% 40wmconnect. com> com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 7:46 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy > > it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides > > lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the slides > > directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve > > unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. > > > > You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, with > > using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be > > adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to start > > at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War > > (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go on > > to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 > > Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on the > > later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, > > even though some bear similar types (like "Observation" ). Many of > > these earlier 6600 Pullman 's appear at first glance to be > > predecessors of the same numbered 6600 w:st="on">Pullmans from the 1960's, but > > with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) may > > be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman , etc. I'll > > start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel > > I noticed that myself when I just received two 6600 series cars in the boxes > > from another member. Is there any difference between the original 6600 > series and the "intermediate" 7600 series? Both appear to have the same > sides folded under and the lower roof, although possibly there are > differences in the end castings? > > Previous cars I had/have with the folded under side I assumed to be 7600's. > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6558	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

Hi Ray, I loved it, but like you say, I want to run my trains, and there just isn't enough room at my place, heck, if I could afford it, I'd be running live steam, the stuff you get to ride on.............:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6559	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list

Okay Chuck, I'll check that out. Those four cars (6608, 6609, 6613 & 6614) are Period Era cars from the late 1800's. Walthers has them listed as "Old Time Open End Cars." Also, just when you think you've found them all, up pops more. You can add # 6451 C&NW Gas-Electric -- "Revised and improved version of the C&NW 'Doodlebug' kit." Alomg with that, please add -- # 6455 GM&O Gas/Electric Power Car and #6456 GM&O Gas/Electric Trailer Car. I have a couple of pages of notes for the newer 6600's and the 7800's (and others), but they're a jumble right now. I'll need time to get them organized. BTW, Walthers produced an 8 car set of factory painted and lettered Heavyweight Cars for the pre-streamlined NYC 20th Century Limited. I have two sets of them, but I haven't come across them in the catalogs. I'll have to dig for them to get numbers as those too are stored (somewhere in the abyss). I really can't pinpoint when Walthers introduced the later 6600 Series, as I just as often bought the catalogs every other year, since they were so similar year-to-year. For instance, around that time I bought catalogs 1969, 1971, then 1973, 1974, 1975, then 1977, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1984, etc., so you can see I skipped a few here and there. All's I can see is that they are not in the 1971 catalog, but appear in 1973. I don't think we need to list the years the kits were introduced, but maybe someone could fill us in if the later 6600 Series was out by 1972. The 7800 Series was not abuptly discontinued though, as some were still offered along with the 6600's in 1980. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I have added what you have posted. The four cars that are not Heavyweight > Cars, are they light weight cars then? I put them in that category. While > I have just added each to the bottom of the file, I can resort and put the > 1939 list first. And put the 1973 section last. I am waiting until we have > it all and then will resort. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 2:11 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers list > > > > I found that I left out a few snips of information on a few of the > early 6600 Series kits. I'm including that info here along with one > I completely missed transcribing from my notes; please include this > info with them. As you've noticed, kits # 6608, 6609, 6613 and 6614 > do not really belong under Heavyweight Cars, but didn't know how else > to list them and still keep them in numerical order. Also, in case > you're wondering about the gap between #5651 and #5653, that's the > Factory Assembled Gas-Electric Car (C&NW) -- #5652. Please add: > > #6629 should additionally read -- Monitor Roof > > #6630 should additonally read -- Monitor Roof > > #6631 60' Baggage Arch Roof > > #6640 should read -- 75' Baggage-Coach Combine, Single Window, > Monitor Roof > > #6641 should read -- 75' Baggage-Coach Combine, Single Window, Arch > Roof > > #6642 75' Baggage-Coach Combine, Paired Window, Monitor Roof > > That's it on that part. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Well it should be an interesting effort then as it sounds like they > reused > > the same numbers a few times. From this book I worked with there > is a note > > "All the former 7800 series Monitor roof cars now come with Molded > plastic > > roofs, & have been renumbered in the 6600 series." Again the date > of this > > book is 1973. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of Don Dellmann > > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:32 AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk% > 40wmconnect.com> com> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > ps.com> > > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 7:46 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers list, was Ulrich list > > > > > Hi Chuck, Yes, that slide show went well; everyone seemed to enjoy > > > it. Even though Powerpoint seems to be the way to show slides > > > lately, I'm just not that far into computor stuff and show the > slides > > > directly from projectors (I use two) with a Tiffon sync/dissolve > > > unit. I enjoy the effect and I'd guess everyone else might too. > > > > > > You did a pretty good job on the Walthers passenger cars so far, > with > > > using limited resources. I'll try to fill in the rest, and will be > > > adding to those series you've posted, but for now I'm going to > start > > > at the beginning -- so I'll go back to the 1930's up until the War > > > (1941) and continue with it in 1946 through 1950. Then later, go > on > > > to the 60's, into the '70's & '80's. You'll note there was a 6600 > > > Series of cars back in 1939, which have absolutely no bearing on > the > > > later 6600 Series with the styrene roofs), which you've addressed, > > > even though some bear similar types (like "Observation"). Many of > > > these earlier 6600 Pullman's appear at first glance to be > > > predecessors of the same numbered 6600 Pullmans from the 1960's, > but > > > with closer examination you'll see they (the same catalog number) > may > > > be an 8-Section Pullman instead of a 10 Section Pullman, etc. I'll > > > start fresh on a new page, to keep the post short. Ray Wetzel > > > > I noticed that myself when I just received two 6600 series cars in > the boxes > > > > from another member. Is there any difference between the original > 6600 > > series and the "intermediate" 7600 series? Both appear to have the > same > > sides folded under and the lower roof, although possibly there are > > differences in the end castings? > > > > Previous cars I had/have with the folded under side I assumed to be > 7600's. > > > > Don > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6560	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Slightly O.T., was Walthers List

Live Steam, Hmmm -- NOW your talkin'. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I loved it, but like you say, I want to run my trains, and there just isn't enough room at my place, heck, if I could afford it, I'd be running live steam, the stuff you get to ride on.............:o) > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6561	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers list

----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:19 PM Subject: RE:[vintageHO] Re: Walthers list > Okay Chuck, I'll check that out. Those four cars (6608, 6609, 6613 & > 6614) are Period Era cars from the late 1800's. Walthers has them > listed as "Old Time Open End Cars." Also, just when you think you've > found them all, up pops more. You can add # 6451 C&NW Gas-Electric -- > "Revised and improved version of the C&NW 'Doodlebug' kit." Alomg > with that, please add -- # 6455 GM&O Gas/Electric Power Car and #6456 > GM&O Gas/Electric Trailer Car. > > I have a couple of pages of notes for the newer 6600's and the 7800's > (and others), but they're a jumble right now. I'll need time to get > them organized. BTW, Walthers produced an 8 car set of factory > painted and lettered Heavyweight Cars for the pre-streamlined NYC > 20th Century Limited. I have two sets of them, but I haven't come > across them in the catalogs. I'll have to dig for them to get > numbers as those too are stored (somewhere in the abyss). > > I really can't pinpoint when Walthers introduced the later 6600 > Series, as I just as often bought the catalogs every other year, > since they were so similar year-to-year. For instance, around that > time I bought catalogs 1969, 1971, then 1973, 1974, 1975, then 1977, > 1979, 1980, 1982, 1984, etc., so you can see I skipped a few here and > there. All's I can see is that they are not in the 1971 catalog, but > appear in 1973. I don't think we need to list the years the kits > were introduced, but maybe someone could fill us in if the later 6600 > Series was out by 1972. The 7800 Series was not abuptly discontinued > though, as some were still offered along with the 6600's in 1980. > Ray W. > (text bobbitted). As far as the "end" goes, the 1980 catalog listed almost the entire line, I don't have 1981, 1982 was down to just a few numbers left. The arch roof cars that still had wood roofs retained their 6600 numbers right up to the end, even though they did get the super detail kits added when the monitor roof cars went to the 7800 series with the plastic roof. I'm told the biggest factor in discontinuing the kits is they were just too labor intensive to produce. The sides were actually punched out one at a time. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6562	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: RE:[vintageHO] Re: Walthers list

Hi Ray, I have fixed the title for the four cars.   I will put the 6451,5 & 6 in the “1961+” group as that is where they first appear.   We can add the notes about that 20th Century train when ever.   We can always put a date range and when some one tells us it is wrong and what the correct dates should be, I will change them.  Not a big issue.  Always looking to make the lists better. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 6:48 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: RE:[vintageHO] Re: Walthers list   ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:19 PM Subject: RE:[vintageHO] Re: Walthers list > Okay Chuck, I'll check that out. Those four cars (6608, 6609, 6613 & > 6614) are Period Era cars from the late 1800's. Walthers has them > listed as "Old Time Open End Cars." Also, just when you think you've > found them all, up pops more. You can add # 6451 C&NW Gas-Electric -- > "Revised and improved version of the C&NW 'Doodlebug' kit." Alomg > with that, please add -- # 6455 GM&O Gas/Electric Power Car and #6456 > GM&O Gas/Electric Trailer Car. > > I have a couple of pages of notes for the newer 6600's and the 7800's > (and others), but they're a jumble right now. I'll need time to get > them organized. BTW, Walthers produced an 8 car set of factory > painted and lettered Heavyweight Cars for the pre-streamlined NYC > 20th Century Limited. I have two sets of them, but I haven't come > across them in the catalogs. I'll have to dig for them to get > numbers as those too are stored (somewhere in the abyss). > > I really can't pinpoint when Walthers introduced the later 6600 > Series, as I just as often bought the catalogs every other year, > since they were so similar year-to-year. For instance, around that > time I bought catalogs 1969, 1971, then 1973, 1974, 1975, then 1977, > 1979, 1980, 1982, 1984, etc., so you can see I skipped a few here and > there. All's I can see is that they are not in the 1971 catalog, but > appear in 1973. I don't think we need to list the years the kits > were introduced, but maybe someone could fill us in if the later 6600 > Series was out by 1972. The 7800 Series was not abuptly discontinued > though, as some were still offered along with the 6600's in 1980. > Ray W. > (text bobbitted). As far as the "end" goes, the 1980 catalog listed almost the entire line, I don't have 1981, 1982 was down to just a few numbers left. The arch roof cars that still had wood roofs retained their 6600 numbers right up to the end, even though they did get the super detail kits added when the monitor roof cars went to the 7800 series with the plastic roof. I'm told the biggest factor in discontinuing the kits is they were just too labor intensive to produce. The sides were actually punched out one at a time. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6563	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

erieberk wrote: > In keeping with the catalog numbers in order, there are two gas > electrics: > > Catalog # . . . . Description > > 6450 . . . . . Gas/Electric (Doodle-Bug), C&NW (similar also to > M&StL, CB&Q, AT&SF, MILW and NYC > > 6454 . . . . . 3-Truck Articulated Gas/Electric (Shuttle-Jack), > Factory Assembled and pre-Painted I have a pair of kits you don't appear to have listed: 6455 Gas-Electric GM&O 6456 Gas Electric GM&O Trailer -- Rick Jones "Take my Worf, please." -Data, "Star Trek: The Next Generation"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6564	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers List

Rick, Thanks, they are listed now.  In the 1973 and 1961+ sections. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:38 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers List   erieberk wrote: > In keeping with the catalog numbers in order, there are two gas > electrics: > > Catalog # . . . . Description > > 6450 . . . . . Gas/Electric (Doodle-Bug) , C&NW (similar also to > M&StL, CB&Q, AT&SF, MILW and NYC > > 6454 . . . . . 3-Truck Articulated Gas/Electric (Shuttle-Jack) , > Factory Assembled and pre-Painted I have a pair of kits you don't appear to have listed: 6455 Gas-Electric GM&O 6456 Gas Electric GM&O Trailer -- Rick Jones "Take my Worf, please." -Data, "Star Trek: The Next Generation"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6565	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Identify a car?

Attachments : I received the attached RPO from another list member, would like to identify it. The sides are perfectly flat, no lip at top or bottom like Walthers cars, and the ends have a groove that the sides fit into. Is this a JC?. If not, does anyone know what it is? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6566	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

Rick, Thanks for bringing that to our attention, although I already posted that for Chuck to add to the Spread-Sheet in my post #6559 (6:19PM) today, although only about 20 minutes before you posted. He probably didn't get a chance yet to add those two to the Sheet. Keep checking though, as there's always a possibility of something missing. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: > > erieberk wrote: > > In keeping with the catalog numbers in order, there are two gas > > electrics: > > > > Catalog # . . . . Description > > > > 6450 . . . . . Gas/Electric (Doodle-Bug), C&NW (similar also to > > M&StL, CB&Q, AT&SF, MILW and NYC > > > > 6454 . . . . . 3-Truck Articulated Gas/Electric (Shuttle-Jack), > > Factory Assembled and pre-Painted > > I have a pair of kits you don't appear to have listed: > > 6455 Gas-Electric GM&O > > 6456 Gas Electric GM&O Trailer > > -- > > Rick Jones > > "Take my Worf, please." > -Data, "Star Trek: The Next Generation" >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6567	From: erieberk	Date: 6/29/2008
Subject: Re: Identify a car?

Hi Don, Yes, as you suspected -- this is a JC Silversides model. Its listed by JC under their Standard Passenger Car Kits as a 60' NYC Railway Postal -- Catalog # H0-10. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I received the attached RPO from another list member, would like to identify > it. The sides are perfectly flat, no lip at top or bottom like Walthers > cars, and the ends have a groove that the sides fit into. Is this a JC?. > If not, does anyone know what it is? > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6568	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Identify a car?

Thanks. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 11:21 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Identify a car? > Hi Don, Yes, as you suspected -- this is a JC Silversides model. Its > listed by JC under their Standard Passenger Car Kits as a 60' NYC > Railway Postal -- Catalog # H0-10. Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> I received the attached RPO from another list member, would like to > identify >> it. The sides are perfectly flat, no lip at top or bottom like > Walthers >> cars, and the ends have a groove that the sides fit into. Is this a > JC?. >> If not, does anyone know what it is? >> >> Don >> >> Don Dellmann >> don.dellmann@... >> Owner >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6569	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: 60s era brass factory pix.

You were indeed honored to meet his family. That is so rare, even now. I's funny how we so often forget to do the obvious, like take photos of dear friends. I'm very bad that way. Thanks for taking pics and sharing them. Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Hobin <tcol@...> wrote: > > Walter J. Bayer II asked: > > > >Thank you for posting these treasured photos. Do you have a photo of > >Kumata-san? If so, would you post that too? > > Unfortunately, I never took a pix of him at all and I kick myself > because I had ample opportunity one Sunday afternoon. We had him, his > wife and 2 young children over to our military housing for a steak > cook-out topped by my wife's home-made apple pie. > > To this day I cannot fathom why I never took any pix. > > Kumata-san was a rather dignified man...probably his family was part of > Japanese aristocracy. His favorite drink was Remy Martin. He always wore > a suit and tie. Rather tall for a Japanese man...I would guess 6'. I > was 5'10" then and he was taller than I. His written and spoken English > was impeccable. > > Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6570	From: erieberk	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides Passenger Car Kits

Since we've brought up the subject of JC Silver Sides, I just thought a listing of these cars might be helpful to some here. Preferring having the kit number first, for easiest reference, this is how the format will appear. Standard (Heavyweight) Passenger Car Kits H0-1 70-FT PENN MODERNIZED COACH -- ARCH ROOF (with Monitor roof) -- D&RGW H0-2 70-FT PENN COACH -- ARCH ROOF H0-2M 70-FT PENN, B&O COACH -- MONITOR ROOF H0-3 70-FT PENN BAGGAGE LOUNGE -- ARCH ROOF H0-3M 70-FT PENN BAGGAGE LOUNGE --MONITOR ROOF H0-4 60-FT PENN, NH BAGGAGE -- ARCHG| ROOF H0-5 80-FT PULLMAN 4-COMPARTMENT OBSERVATION LOUNGE -- MONITOR ROOF H0-6 80=FT STANDARD 12-SECTION PULLMAN -- MONITOR ROOF H0-7 61-FT N&W, CNJ, RDG COACH -- MONITOR ROOF H0-8 62-FT N&W BAGGAGE COACH -- MONITOR ROOF H0-9 60-FT NEW YORK CENTRAL, NH BAGGAGE -- MONITOR ROOF H0-10 60-FT NEW YORK CENTRAL, NH RAILWAY POSTAL -- MONITOR ROOF H0-11 65-FT NEW YORK CENTRAL BAGGAGE COAXCH -- MONITOR ROOF HO-12 70-FT NEW YORK CENTRAL, NH, LV, N&W, CNJ COACH -- MONITOR ROOF H0-13 80-FT NEW YORK CENTRAL DINER -- MONITOR ROOF H0-14 70-FT PENN BAGGAGE MAIL -- MONITOR ROOF H0-15 60-FT N&W OBSERVATION -- MONITOR ROOF H0-16 60-FT CNJ BLUE COMET RECESSED END OBSERVATION -- MONITOR ROOF H0-17 70-FT N.Y.C. RECESSED END OBSERVATION -- MONITOR ROOF Streamlined cars to follow. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6571	From: erieberk	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re{ JC Silver Sides Passenger Car Kits

Continuing with the JC Silver Sides Streamline Cars, they were offereed both as corrugated side and smooth side, with the prefix (S") in the kit number denoting the latter. Also came in S Scale, which we won't address here. H0-100 80-FT 18-ROOMETTE -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-100-S 80-FT 18-ROOMETTE -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-101 80-FT DINER -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-101-S 80-FT DINER -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-102 80-FT COACH --CORRUGATED SIDE H0-102-S 80-FT COACH -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-103 80-FT COACH_DORMITORY-BAGGAGE -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-103-S 80-FT COACH-DORMITORY-BAGGAGE -- SMOOTH SIDE Ho-104 80-FT R.P.O. -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-104-S 80-FT R.P.O. -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-105 80-FT BAGGAGE MAIL -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-105-S 80-FT BAGGAGE MAIL -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-106 80-FT BAGGAGE -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-106-S 80-FT BAGGAGE -- SMOOTH SIDE There was no observation at this time in the late 1970's, although it was stated . . . "We will be produxcing other cars for particular roads and/or trains at a later date." I don't know if they ever did; you may need to use a Kasiner or O.K. Herkimer Obs car for the tail end. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6572	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

A model rr friend who was an engineer for NASA once did a humor piece in the MER "Local"--one of his astronomer colleagues was puzzling over a band of what appeared to be tiny metal coils circling the earth like a Saturn ring. Our hero told him that every model railroader knew about it--it is the Kadee Coupler Spring Belt. It is constantly being added to---gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <k2frd@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 11:38 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point? > I've bought a few older kits which required truck assembly with those > itty-bitty springs. WHEN (not "if") I lose a spring, I replace it with a > spare spring from a Kadee #11 Ultra Pack of #5 couplers which has a little > capsule (Benedryl-sized) with extra springs. Then I lose those. I can hear > them hit the floor but to where they bounce is a long unsolved mystery The > string-in-a-spring technique is a great idea! However, I've found my > arthritic fingers have their limitations so even though I give it a shot > to assemble the trucks, I end up installing factory-assembled trucks. > > For me, what is worse than lost springs are those occasions when I've just > spent two hours scratch-building a gazillion grab rails from .015" brass > wire for a caboose only to have my kitten or my own clumsiness knock the > whole lot onto the floor. Earthquake (my kitten earned her name) doesn't > know any better but I don't have an excuse. > > So far, Ray, I've been able to design and manufacture almost all the parts > I've needed (I've got an engineering background). Biggest problem is > finding the wood or metal stock for raw materials. The Arizona model > railroad and hobby stores to which I've gone (which is most of them) have > had much of what I've needed but now I'm getting into some specialized > requirements (grated pilots, wood frame channels and ells and zees, > simulated wood car sides). While I can order all that stuff online, I > prefer to look at it up close before purchase to visually determine if a > particular item will fit my needs. I'm gonna bite the bullet and swallow > my pride this fall and hit a couple of the large chain craft stores such > as Michael's and Joanne's to see if they stock some of this stuff. With > the exception of really, really tiny parts (say, tiny levers or fasteners > or marker brackets) which on a 1:1 prototype might be only a couple inches > in size, I've been able to hold my own construction-wise. Springs are a > notable exception. X;{ > > Your description of black-hole flooring tickled my humor button. I'm a > fulltime RVer, haul my travel trailer home wherever I go (my 8'x18' HO > layout is outside at my winter desert parking site, cleverly protected by > canvas and wood covering). Some months ago, a well-meaning friend told me > I really needed to have a carpeted floor over my present white vinyl floor > (which, at least gives me a fighting chance to recover lost parts). It > took me some time to explain to her that carpet is the LAST thing a model > craftsman needs. And, no, a magnet will not pick up brass nor pot metal > nor wood parts lost on the floor. Yes, a vacuum cleaner would work very > well to pick up lost tiny parts but would she be willing to sift through > all the spilled cat food, kitty litter, dust, dirt, and other pieces of > detritus which would also be picked up? > > Gotta love this hobby! > > Fred Stevens > > At 5:39 PM +0000 29/6/08, erieberk wrote: >>Ah Yes . . . the imfamous black-hole flooring. There's one under >>every workbench. Drop any kind of model piece at all -- it doesn't >>have to be Japanese -- and its Syonara! That reminds me of an old >>helpful trick to prevent losing those flying truck springs when we >>used to assemble them. I don't think there are any truck kits like >>that anymore. By now, I'm sure many guys know this, but for those >>who don't, just run a long piece of thread through the coil springs >>before you attempt to assemble them to the side-frames. If they do >>take off (and why wouldn't they?), its a lot easier finding a long >>length of string, especially if its brightly colored. To have just a >>spring go flying you might as well chaulk it up to it being lost in >>space, as you'll never find it again. If you need a tracing of any >>wood parts you may have lost, let me know, if I have that kit I could >>send you a tracing if you're in a bind. Ray > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6573	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid Glue

I have had failures with "Goo" also. Most spectacularly, I built up a ten-car Olympian Hiawatha from the Walthers O Scale kits. First off, the wooden H-beam center sills were too weak to support the underbody details, so I substituted Plastruct. A few years after building up the cars, I looked at the train on the shelf where I had it displayed--every one of the underbody tanks had dropped off, trailing tails of dried Goo. Those tanks were almost the size of an HO F-3's fuel tank. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 4:01 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid Glue > By this (movie film derivative) then, can it be taken that the "oid" > part of the Ambroid name may have come from "celluloid"? Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> I was never a fan of Ambroid, not real keen on "Goo" either. > Ambroid seemed >> to me to get brittle with age, and goo never really cures > (supposedly the >> reason it's strong is because it stays flexible.) >> >> I stick with plain old Elmers for wood to wood, and contact cement > for >> dissimilar materials. If I need something REALLY strong I'll go to > a two >> part epoxy. >> >> I'm told Ambroid was originally made from recycled movie film, > which gave it >> it's distinctive amber color, which is where the "Ambroid" name > came from. >> >> Don >> >> Don Dellmann >> don.dellmann@... >> Owner >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6574	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List JC Silver Sides cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of JC Silver Sides kits You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20JC%20Silver%20Sides%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6575	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re{ JC Silver Sides Passenger Car Kits

Hi Ray, is the format of this list better than the Walthers.  I will change the Walthers in the near future.  Its format came from another list I have maintained for a few years now, but for this group the kit number first may be best. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:45 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re{ JC Silver Sides Passenger Car Kits   Continuing with the JC Silver Sides Streamline Cars, they were offereed both as corrugated side and smooth side, with the prefix (S") in the kit number denoting the latter. Also came in S Scale, which we won't address here. H0-100 80-FT 18-ROOMETTE -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-100-S 80-FT 18-ROOMETTE -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-101 80-FT DINER -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-101-S 80-FT DINER -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-102 80-FT COACH --CORRUGATED SIDE H0-102-S 80-FT COACH -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-103 80-FT COACH_DORMITORY- BAGGAGE -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-103-S 80-FT COACH-DORMITORY- BAGGAGE -- SMOOTH SIDE Ho-104 80-FT R.P.O. -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-104-S 80-FT R.P.O. -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-105 80-FT BAGGAGE MAIL -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-105-S 80-FT BAGGAGE MAIL -- SMOOTH SIDE H0-106 80-FT BAGGAGE -- CORRUGATED SIDE H0-106-S 80-FT BAGGAGE -- SMOOTH SIDE There was no observation at this time in the late 1970's, although it was stated . . . "We will be produxcing other cars for particular roads and/or trains at a later date." I don't know if they ever did; you may need to use a Kasiner or O.K. Herkimer Obs car for the tail end. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6576	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List

erieberk wrote: > Rick, Thanks for bringing that to our attention, although I already > posted that for Chuck to add to the Spread-Sheet in my post #6559 > (6:19PM) today, although only about 20 minutes before you posted. He > probably didn't get a chance yet to add those two to the Sheet. Keep > checking though, as there's always a possibility of something > missing. Ray I don't know if it belongs with the Gas-Electric kits or elsewhere, but there's also the power truck for them, #933-778. -- Rick Jones No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6577	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

the Kup-EZ was a mirror image of the Baker. For a lot of discussion--check the GandD@yahoogroups.com John Allen used the Bakers. so they have been thoroughly covered there. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:40 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point? > As for missing parts in those Ambroid kits, if you can determine > which parts need replacing they could be traced (outlined) by any of > us having those same kits and you could re-make them if they were > wood. If they're metal castings, perhaps you could improvise using > another present day manufacturer's detail parts. > > Well engineered craftsman kits such as Ambroid (whether under this or > any other label) are great to assemble in the satisfaction gained. > Have fun putting them all together. I have a good number of them > myself, but never acquired them with the idea of completing a > collection of this line as there were some cars I had no need for on > a layout. > > The odd coupler you came across in your Japanese IMP kit is called > a "Kupeeze" coupler. I believe this was also called a Baker coupler, > if memory serves, or perhaps tyhe Baker coupler was very similar to > this, I don't quite recall. There's an article on this coupler in > the files. Back in late January, early February, there was some > discussion on IMP (Takara, Tenshodo, etc., -- all closely associated) > cars and again in mid February. You should be able to find something > on them in the archives. Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> > wrote: >> >> Ray et al-- >> >> A thousand thanks for all the feedback! Newton, not Norton is in my > eBay Favorites. Just a little intrusion of the old Alzheimer's there > in my post. >> >> The Ambroid NYO&W milk car kit was the first I'd seen the Quality > Craft Model ID within an Ambroid box but then again, I've put > together only five Ambroid kits, so it threw me for a loop. I'll have > to check the other three Ambroid kits I've got waiting for > construction (I have about 20 kits total waiting their turn). I've > also got a bid in on a lot of nine Ambroid and Quality Craft Models, > so if I win, I'll be curious to see how they shake out. They appear > to be incomplete kits for the most part and their boxes seem to be > much abused, so I'd be doing a lot of homebrew parts manufacturing. > Still, as long as the important parts (roof, body, frames) are there, > they should be lots of fun. Most of them are post-period (I model > 1800s up to about 1950) but I still enjoy a good kit even if I can't > use it on my layout. >> >> As a follow-up question, what manufacturers of quality HO rolling > stock kits are in business these days? I'm familiar with the modern > plastic kits (e.g., Athern, Proto, Accurail) which I stay away from > since they are, to me, child's play(sri - a little arrogance here) > but I understand there are still makers of highly sophisticated wood > kits (laser cut kits). Bethlehem? I've heard talk of LaBelle but have > never constructed one of their kits. Northeastern seems to be > strictly buildings (I scratchbuild my own for the most part, kitbash > the rest). I am not yet up to scratchbuilding rolling stock. >> >> Oh, it happens I have with me the box and instruction sheet of that > Japanese passenger car model (the model is down in my storage shed in > the AZ desert): the label states, "International Models, Inc. > America's Leading Hobbyologists 33 union Square, W. (16th Street & > Broadway) New York 3, N.Y.". The instructions (I keep ALL instruction > sheets in a big fat file of their own) are printed on cheap yellow > rice paper and were obviously written by an "English as a second > language" type (e.g., "HO gauge Open Enders Short and loaded with > glamour!" [sic], "cellophne", "couplar", "scoch tape" [I kid you > not!]). No other identifying information came with the kit. The > couplers that came with it were of a type such as I hadn't seen since > I played with my father's old 1920s vintage S gauge toy railroad as a > kid. >> >> I did a Google on International Models, Inc. and came up with a lot > of hits on etiquette and clothing models :-D but nothing on model > railroading. >> >> Fred Stevens >> Prescott, AZ >> >> At 12:28 PM +0000 28/6/08, erieberk wrote: >> >Fred, While I don't believe there's a comprehensive listing for >> >Ambroid (or Quality Craft, Northeastern or Gloor Craft) in our >> >archives that I can recall, we would all like nothing better than > to >> >have such comprehensive lists on all early H0 kit manufacturers. > To >> >this end, some of us are slowly adding this info, but it can be > time >> >consuming as it involves much research even though some of us have >> >near-complete collections of many manufacturers. Ongoing projects >> >like this, delving into the products (and history's?) of all the >> >manufacturers could easily turn into a full time job. Maybe some > day >> >we'll get it all done <g>. >> > >> >You might want to change the "Norton" name to M. Dale Newton in > your >> >list of eBay Favorites, unless you just happened to mispell it this >> >time. There are so many more to look for, but without knowing your >> >level of quality preferences, I'd hesitate to make suggestions on >> >them. To me, I find them all interesting and worthy >> >of "squirreling," if that only includes a few examples of each. > I'd >> >guess you might be referring to IMP (International Model Products) > or >> >Takara or Tenshodo when you point out the nail construction on that >> >Japanese kit. >> > >> >Looking forward to your further posts as you dig up more old > stuff. >> >Don't hesitate with inquiring about any as we enjoy that part of >> >I.D.ing them. Ray Wetzel >> >> -- >> 73 de Fred Stevens K2FRD, VO2FS >> http://homepage.mac.com/k2frd/K2FRD.html >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6578	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One Point?

FWIW, the industrial term for the manufacture of a product by one company to be sold under another company's label is "hardward trade". While setting up my wildlife consulting business in the 1970s, I worked as a marine mechanic, became familiar with the hardware trade as customers brought in their 1950s Gales, Elgins, and many other off-the-wall brands but which were, in fact manufactured by OMC (Johnson/Evinrude). Similarly, a local back-home aspirin manufacturer (Norwich-Eaton Pharmaceuticals; made Norwich Aspirin) also made aspirin for Bayer, Jamesway, various chain drug stores under their labels). I don't believe this is done very much anymore; competition has gotten too intense and the smaller companies have fallen by the wayside. Thus it appears that while Ambroid tried to increase its product line by offering Quality Craft Models in Ambroid boxes, in the long term, it didn't work out. Maybe Ambroid's glue wasn't holding the company together. [sri, cuddent resist :-D ]. But I sure do love these kits no matter whose label they fall under. Fred Stevens > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:40 AM >Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid vs Quality Craft Models: The Same At One >Point? > > >> As for missing parts in those Ambroid kits, if you can determine >> which parts need replacing they could be traced (outlined) by any of >> us having those same kits and you could re-make them if they were >> wood. If they're metal castings, perhaps you could improvise using >> another present day manufacturer's detail parts. >> >> Well engineered craftsman kits such as Ambroid (whether under this or >> any other label) are great to assemble in the satisfaction gained. >> Have fun putting them all together. I have a good number of them >> myself, but never acquired them with the idea of completing a >> collection of this line as there were some cars I had no need for on >> a layout. > > >> The odd coupler you came across in your Japanese IMP kit is called >> a "Kupeeze" coupler. I believe this was also called a Baker coupler, >> if memory serves, or perhaps tyhe Baker coupler was very similar to >> this, I don't quite recall. There's an article on this coupler in >> the files. Back in late January, early February, there was some >> discussion on IMP (Takara, Tenshodo, etc., -- all closely associated) >> cars and again in mid February. You should be able to find something >> on them in the archives. Ray W. > > >> > > >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> >> wrote: >>> >>> Ray et al-- >>> >>> A thousand thanks for all the feedback! Newton, not Norton is in my >> eBay Favorites. Just a little intrusion of the old Alzheimer's there >> in my post. >>> >>> The Ambroid NYO&W milk car kit was the first I'd seen the Quality >> Craft Model ID within an Ambroid box but then again, I've put >> together only five Ambroid kits, so it threw me for a loop. I'll have >> to check the other three Ambroid kits I've got waiting for >> construction (I have about 20 kits total waiting their turn). I've >> also got a bid in on a lot of nine Ambroid and Quality Craft Models, >> so if I win, I'll be curious to see how they shake out. They appear >> to be incomplete kits for the most part and their boxes seem to be >> much abused, so I'd be doing a lot of homebrew parts manufacturing. >> Still, as long as the important parts (roof, body, frames) are there, >> they should be lots of fun. Most of them are post-period (I model >> 1800s up to about 1950) but I still enjoy a good kit even if I can't > > use it on my layout.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6579	From: James Bartelt	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Mystery Loco and cars

Hello,   I have 3 mystery items for the group to try to help me figure out who made them I will post the pics in the Photo section in a folder titled Jim's Mystery Models.   Item #1. Unknown Brass Boxcab Electric. It came in a white unmarked box. The only markings on the unit are a little placard with the letters ED141. Any clue who made it & a prototype if any? I am looking to put this on ebay and would like to have some info on it.   Item #2 is a metal 40ft C&EI Ribside Hopper Car. It is car # 98598 it has opening doors on the bottom. Is this an old Roundhouse car? I am planning on keeping this one.   Item #3 is another metal 40ft Hopper Car. This one is lettered SP T&NO 4253. This is a smooth side car and has an interesting spring loaded mechanism on the bottom for opening the hopper doors. Any Clue? I am planning on keeping this one also.   Thanks for the assistance   James Bartelt jimbartelt@... METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6580	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

Attachments : Hi Jim, the ED141 is a Japanese National Railway box cab electric. I believe the model was imported by Ken Kidder and was made by Kawai Models. see the prototype photos below. Hope it helps, Brian L       In a message dated 6/30/2008 9:37:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimbartelt@... writes: Hello,   I have 3 mystery items for the group to try to help me figure out who made them I will post the pics in the Photo section in a folder titled Jim's Mystery Models.   Item #1. Unknown Brass Boxcab Electric. It came in a white unmarked box. The only markings on the unit are a little placard with the letters ED141. Any clue who made it & a prototype if any? I am looking to put this on ebay and would like to have some info on it.   Item #2 is a metal 40ft C&EI Ribside Hopper Car. It is car # 98598 it has opening doors on the bottom. Is this an old Roundhouse car? I am planning on keeping this one.   Item #3 is another metal 40ft Hopper Car. This one is lettered SP T&NO 4253. This is a smooth side car and has an interesting spring loaded mechanism on the bottom for opening the hopper doors. Any Clue? I am planning on keeping this one also.   Thanks for the assistance   James Bartelt jimbartelt@sbcgloba l.net METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrc lub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 http://members. trainorders. com/scrimjimmy/ spring.html   Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6581	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

Hi James,     Your SP/T&NO hopper car is definitely an Ulrich operating hopper.  Ulrich supplied a track trip with the car that “automatically” opened the hoppers when the car passed over it.  Your C&EI car sounds like an Ulrich general service gondola.  If so, it should have four pairs of doors that open and close.  There’s also a pair of simulated or non-operating doors at each end of the car, almost directly under the trucks.  I can’t help you with the brass boxcab, but I’m sure someone else who knows vintage brass can.  Best wishes.                                                                                                                                                 Lou Greiff On 6/30/08 9:36 PM, "James Bartelt" <jimbartelt@...> wrote:   Hello,   I have 3 mystery items for the group to try to help me figure out who made them I will post the pics in the Photo section in a folder titled Jim's Mystery Models.   Item #1. Unknown Brass Boxcab Electric. It came in a white unmarked box. The only markings on the unit are a little placard with the letters ED141. Any clue who made it & a prototype if any? I am looking to put this on ebay and would like to have some info on it.   Item #2 is a metal 40ft C&EI Ribside Hopper Car. It is car # 98598 it has opening doors on the bottom. Is this an old Roundhouse car? I am planning on keeping this one.   Item #3 is another metal 40ft Hopper Car. This one is lettered SP T&NO 4253. This is a smooth side car and has an interesting spring loaded mechanism on the bottom for opening the hopper doors. Any Clue? I am planning on keeping this one also.   Thanks for the assistance   James Bartelt jimbartelt@... METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org <http://www.metrorrclub.org/> METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6582	From: James Bartelt	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

Thanks for the reply I appreciate it. Now to find out on the hopper Cars.   James Bartelt jimbartelt@... METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html   ----- Original Message ---- From: "bslook@..." <bslook@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:57:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Loco and cars Hi Jim, the ED141 is a Japanese National Railway box cab electric. I believe the model was imported by Ken Kidder and was made by Kawai Models. see the prototype photos below. Hope it helps, Brian L       In a message dated 6/30/2008 9:37:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimbartelt@... writes: Hello,   I have 3 mystery items for the group to try to help me figure out who made them I will post the pics in the Photo section in a folder titled Jim's Mystery Models.   Item #1. Unknown Brass Boxcab Electric. It came in a white unmarked box. The only markings on the unit are a little placard with the letters ED141. Any clue who made it & a prototype if any? I am looking to put this on ebay and would like to have some info on it.   Item #2 is a metal 40ft C&EI Ribside Hopper Car. It is car # 98598 it has opening doors on the bottom. Is this an old Roundhouse car? I am planning on keeping this one.   Item #3 is another metal 40ft Hopper Car. This one is lettered SP T&NO 4253. This is a smooth side car and has an interesting spring loaded mechanism on the bottom for opening the hopper doors. Any Clue? I am planning on keeping this one also.   Thanks for the assistance   James Bartelt jimbartelt@sbcgloba l.net METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrc lub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 http://members. trainorders. com/scrimjimmy/ spring.html   Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6583	From: James Bartelt	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

Attachments : The C & EI car is not a gondola but a rib sided 3 bay hopper. So don't think its an Ulrich. Thanks for the clue on the SP I was thinking it might be an Ulrich. I am attaching a pic of the C&EI.   James Bartelt jimbartelt@... METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html   ----- Original Message ---- From: Louis Greiff <louie113@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:10:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Loco and cars Hi James,     Your SP/T&NO hopper car is definitely an Ulrich operating hopper.  Ulrich supplied a track trip with the car that “automatically” opened the hoppers when the car passed over it.  Your C&EI car sounds like an Ulrich general service gondola.  If so, it should have four pairs of doors that open and close.  There’s also a pair of simulated or non-operating doors at each end of the car, almost directly under the trucks.  I can’t help you with the brass boxcab, but I’m sure someone else who knows vintage brass can.  Best wishes.                                                                                                                                                 Lou Greiff On 6/30/08 9:36 PM, "James Bartelt" <jimbartelt@sbcgloba l.net> wrote:   Hello,   I have 3 mystery items for the group to try to help me figure out who made them I will post the pics in the Photo section in a folder titled Jim's Mystery Models.   Item #1. Unknown Brass Boxcab Electric. It came in a white unmarked box. The only markings on the unit are a little placard with the letters ED141. Any clue who made it & a prototype if any? I am looking to put this on ebay and would like to have some info on it.   Item #2 is a metal 40ft C&EI Ribside Hopper Car. It is car # 98598 it has opening doors on the bottom. Is this an old Roundhouse car? I am planning on keeping this one.   Item #3 is another metal 40ft Hopper Car. This one is lettered SP T&NO 4253. This is a smooth side car and has an interesting spring loaded mechanism on the bottom for opening the hopper doors. Any Clue? I am planning on keeping this one also.   Thanks for the assistance   James Bartelt jimbartelt@sbcgloba l.net METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrc lub.org <http://www.metrorrc lub.org/> METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 http://members. trainorders. com/scrimjimmy/ spring.html

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6584	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

----- Original Message ----- From: "James Bartelt" <jimbartelt@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Loco and cars The C & EI car is not a gondola but a rib sided 3 bay hopper. So don't think its an Ulrich. Thanks for the clue on the SP I was thinking it might be an Ulrich. I am attaching a pic of the C&EI. James Bartelt jimbartelt@... METRO RR Club http://www.metrorrclub.org METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html Don't know for sure, never having had one, but the MDC triple hopper list does list a C&EI car as a rib side triple, doesn't list a road number. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6585	From: Glenn476	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

Ulrich had a 3-bay hopper---gj ----- Original Message ----- From: James Bartelt

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6586	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Loco and cars Ulrich had a 3-bay hopper---gj ----- Original Message ----- From: James Bartelt Ulrich's was an offset side though. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/69a4?b=2 James' is a rib side Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6587	From: erieberk	Date: 6/30/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

Good to see at least the files are being used for something, even though they may not be 100% complete. Ordinarily, by default (since no one else made a metal rib-side triple hopper, lettered for C&EI -- except MDC), this would seem to be a Roundhouse product even though I was missing the car number for that model when I drew up the MDC listing. With Jim's posting of the photo, there's no mistaking that this is an MDC Triple Hopper (Ribbed-Side); H-403 C&EI - Tuscan Red. I think its safe to add the number of this car to the MDC listing. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Bartelt" <jimbartelt@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:26 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Loco and cars > > > The C & EI car is not a gondola but a rib sided 3 bay hopper. So don't think > its an Ulrich. Thanks for the clue on the SP I was thinking it might be an > Ulrich. > I am attaching a pic of the C&EI. > > James Bartelt > jimbartelt@... > > METRO RR Club > http://www.metrorrclub.org > > METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 > http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html > > > > Don't know for sure, never having had one, but the MDC triple hopper list > does list a C&EI car as a rib side triple, doesn't list a road number. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6588	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List, was JC Silver Sides

Hi Chuck, I just find that even though you have all the kits in numerical order, its still easier to find any numbered kit when its the first thing you see on the left hand side instead of hunting for it. I'll start here with the ommission/corrections to the list yopu already have. Where you already have an existing car, I won't repeat the whole description, but just give the kit number with the information that needs to be added on to it. Later 6600 Series -- Introduced 1973 (1972?) 6600 80' Do-It-Yourself Passenger Car Monitor Roof (Chuck, this came with blank sides -- no window cut outs) 6607 80' Parlor 32-Seat Betterment, Monitor Roof 6610 GN Empire Builder 6614 80; Pullman Coach-Sleeper 10-Seat Betterment, Monitor Roof 6615 PRR 6617 80' Cafe-Coach 32-Chair, Monitor Roof 6620 NYC,D&RGW, L&N, ERIE, GN 6622 C&NW, LV, KCS 6628 CNJ, CB&Q, MP 6630 B&O, C&O, CB&Q, C&NW, DL&W, L&N, Sou, T&P, WAB 6632 GN, NP, MILW 6639 Rail Fan Car (was not a "Circus" car) 6640 Combine 1-Door, NYC, C&O, C&NW, V&N, N&W, Sou 6642 Paired Window, PRR, B&O 6644 SOO, PRR 6646 C&NW I give you this first, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, is the format of this list better than the Walthers. I will change > the Walthers in the near future. Its format came from another list I have > maintained for a few years now, but for this group the kit number first may > be best. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:45 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re{ JC Silver Sides Passenger Car Kits > > > > Continuing with the JC Silver Sides Streamline Cars, they were > offereed both as corrugated side and smooth side, with the prefix > (S") in the kit number denoting the latter. Also came in S Scale, > which we won't address here. > > H0-100 80-FT 18-ROOMETTE -- CORRUGATED SIDE > > H0-100-S 80-FT 18-ROOMETTE -- SMOOTH SIDE > > H0-101 80-FT DINER -- CORRUGATED SIDE > > H0-101-S 80-FT DINER -- SMOOTH SIDE > > H0-102 80-FT COACH --CORRUGATED SIDE > > H0-102-S 80-FT COACH -- SMOOTH SIDE > > H0-103 80-FT COACH_DORMITORY-BAGGAGE -- CORRUGATED SIDE > > H0-103-S 80-FT COACH-DORMITORY-BAGGAGE -- SMOOTH SIDE > > Ho-104 80-FT R.P.O. -- CORRUGATED SIDE > > H0-104-S 80-FT R.P.O. -- SMOOTH SIDE > > H0-105 80-FT BAGGAGE MAIL -- CORRUGATED SIDE > > H0-105-S 80-FT BAGGAGE MAIL -- SMOOTH SIDE > > H0-106 80-FT BAGGAGE -- CORRUGATED SIDE > > H0-106-S 80-FT BAGGAGE -- SMOOTH SIDE > > There was no observation at this time in the late 1970's, although it > was stated . . . "We will be produxcing other cars for particular > roads and/or trains at a later date." I don't know if they ever did; > you may need to use a Kasiner or O.K. Herkimer Obs car for the tail > end. Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6589	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

bslook@... stated: > >Hi Jim, the ED141 is a Japanese National Railway box cab electric. I believe the model was imported by Ken Kidder and was made by Kawai Models. see the prototype photos below. Hope it helps, Brian L That made me dig thru my "still-boxed brass closet" and find my JNR ED locomotive. Mine is a ED71, factory painted, but in kit form with decals. Model was manufactured by Tetsudo Mokei Sha. Have a similar one in N scale someplace. For Jim's info, in case he's interested to see how accurate in scale his ED141 is, here's the actual dimensions. Sorry my Guidebook on Japanese Locomotives is totally in Japanese and measurements are metric - I assume CMs.. Length (coupler-coupler) : 11,200 cm Height (top of rail to roof exclusive of headlight and pantographs): 3,465 cm Distance between wheels on trucks, center-center): 2650 cm Top speed 30 km/h BTW, Kawai Models had a small shop in the Kanda section of Tokyo...always stopped in and bought lots of sheet brass and other goodies - their US prototype models usually were "generic" types, 2-6-0 & 4-6-0 etc. They seemed a little large to me and suspect they were actually 4mm = 12" rather than 3.5mm. Some "featured" motor in the tender coupled to loco via a universal. Nothing was pre-packaged. If you wanted 24 marker jewels, the clerk would use something akin to a pill sorter and count out 24. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6590	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List, Additions (Continued)

Chuck, I just now tried sending you the rest of the 6600's additions (about 22 of them), but got knocked off line by my computor -- yeah, lost it all -- real pain in A##. I can see this is gonna take a while. I'll have to break these in half. With this next group of Sante Fe cars, I'm including the Prototype car numbers each type of car was modeled after. Too bad Walthers didn't do that for all their cars, but some were used for many roads. Kit # .. Road Name . . Car Number 6650 . . ATSF . . . . # 1820 - # 1829 6651 . . ATSF . . . . # 57 - # 59 6652 . . ATSF . . . . # 2024 - # 2048 6653 . . ATSF . . . . # 2622 - # 2639 6654 . . ATSF . . . . # 111 - # 112 6655 . . ATSF . . . . # 799 - # 816 6656 . . ATSF . . . . # 3030 - # 3067 6657 . . ATSF . . . . # 3230 - # 3233 6658 . . ATSF . . . . # 1532 - # 1537 6659 . . ATSF . . . . # 1360 - # 1368 6660 . . ATSF . . . . # 1400 - # 1418 6661 . . ATSF . . . . # 1513 - # 1514 Try this bunch, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6591	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List, Additions (continued)

Here's the last of the later 6600's additions: 6663 60' Sante Fe Business Car, Monitor Roof, ATSF 6665 Diner, GN, NP 6666 NH 6674 D&RGW, PRR, other 6676 C&NW 6677 GN Empire Builder 6679 GN Empire Builder 6680 NYC, CNJ, GN, LV, CB&Q, L&N, MP, N&W 6682 80' Parlor 36-Seat Betterment Monitor Roof, PRR, B&O, C&EI, NH, SP, D&RGW, IC, MKT 6684 70' TrussRod Pullman Coach, Pre-Painted Pullman Green, # 100-A Gold Silk Screen Lettering That's all the additions to this Series that I could find. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6592	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers List -- 7800's Series Additions

Chuck, Have almost 60 additional car kits to add to here, including some complete descriptions which haven't been included yet. I'd better break these down into groups of 15 or so, so I don't get knocked off line. 7801 80' Pullman Observation (4 Comp, Lounge, Observation), Monitor Roof, GN 7802 80' Pullman (12-Section), Monitor Roof 7803 80' Pullman Observation (10-Section), Monitor Roof 7806 80' Pullman (6-Bedroom, Buffet, Lounge), Monitor Roof 7808 PRR, others 7810 80' Pullman Solarium Observation, Monitor Roof, GN Empire Builer 7811 80' Pullman (8-Section - 1 - 2), Monitor Roof 7813 80' Pullman (Baggage-Club), Monitor Roof 7814 80' Pullman (14-Section), Monitor Roof 7815 PRR 7816 80' Pullman (10 - 1 - 2), Monitor Roof 7817 80' Pullman (28 - 1 Parlor Car), Monitor Roof w/Air Ducts 7818 80' Pullman (3 Drawing Room, 6 Comp.), Monitor Roof 7819 PRR, B&O, RDG 7820 70' Baggage, Monitor Roof, NYC, D&RGW, L&N, ERIE, GN All for this batch, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6593	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers 7800 Series Additions (continued)

Starting here with where I left off, will go with these: 7821 UP, RDG, T&P, SP 7822 60' Baggage (w/Pierre), Monitor Roof, MKT, C&NW, LV, KCS 7828 70' Postal Baggage Combine, Monitor Roof, CNJ, CB&Q, MP, FEC 7829 UP, SP, CN, CP, PRR 7830 60' Postal, Monitor Roof, B&O, C&O, C&NW, DL&W, L&N, Sou, T&P, WAB 7831 SP, N&W 7832 60' Postal, Monitor Roof , GN, NP, MILW 7833 UP, IC, CRI&P 7834 60' Postal, Monitor Roof, NH 7840 75' Combine, Single Window, Monitor Roof, NYC, C&O, C&NW, L&N, N&W, Sou 7842 75' Baggage Coach Combine, Paired Window. Monitor Roof, PRR, B&O 7843 SOO, PRR 7845 Streamlined Roof, ERIE 7846 60' Utility Combine, Monitor Roof, C&NW 7850 70' Baggage, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 1820 - # 1829 7851 60' Postal, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 57 - # 59 7852 70' Postal Baggage Combine, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 2024 - # 2048 7853 75' Combine (Double Vestuble), Monitor Roof ATSF # 2622 - # 2639 7854 75' R.P.O. Smoker, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 111 - # 112 7855 75' Chair Smoker, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 799 - # 816 Enough for this batch, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6594	From: Jack Priller	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Tin-plate HO?

Ever-so-slightly(?) off-topic [vintage these ain't], but I wanted to share photos of some recent acquisitions. Also would like any information anyone might have about these. What I know, or at least think I know, about these: Made in Japan [surprise, surprise!], makers mark consists of a diamond- shaped 'box' with the letters T.N in it. [NO dot after the N] They are lithographed tin with NO 3D detail except for the trucks, and the locomotive and car truck side-frames are identical as far as my tired old eyes can tell. Refrigerated boxcar and automobile car have plastic wheels, while the F? APPEARS to be wired and isolated for two rail operation. Haven't had time to really check these out yet. Going to try to track down e-Bayer that got the other lot like this [loco and stock car] and see what he/she can tell me. Thanks for your time reading this; any additional info greatly appreciated. Jack Priller El Paso, TX

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6595	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re; Walthers 7800 Series Additions, Continued

Lost this batch once by making it too long. Trying again, but need to make it smaller, what a pain. 7856 75' Coach, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 303 - # 3067 7857 80' Parlor Club, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 3230- # 3233 7858 75' Lounge, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 1532 - # 1537 7859 80' Dormitory Lounge, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 1360 - # 1368 7860 80' Dining Car, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 1400 - #1418 7861 80' Cafe Observation, Monitor oof, ATSF # 1513 - # 1514 7870 75' Coach - Single-Window, Monitor Roof, NYC, CNJ, GN, MKT, Sou, LV, T&P, CB&Q, L&N, MP, N&W, E-L 7871 75' Coach - Single-Window, Arch Roof, MKT, C&NW, N&W, SLSF, C&O 7872 75' Coach - Paired-Window, Monitor Roof, PRR, B&O, C&EI, NH, SP, D&RGW, IC, MKT, NP 7873 75' Coach - Paired-Window, Arch Roof, WP, IC 7874 75' Modernized Coach, Monitor Roof, D&RGW, PRR, others 7875 75' Modernized Coach, Streamline Roof, CSS&SB, PRR, ATSF, others More to come, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6596	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

The hoppers are the only MDC car I do not have at least one example of in my collection. If anyone has a spare--let me know. Thanks--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery Loco and cars > Good to see at least the files are being used for something, even > though they may not be 100% complete. Ordinarily, by default (since no > one else made a metal rib-side triple hopper, lettered for C&EI -- > except MDC), this would seem to be a Roundhouse product even though I > was missing the car number for that model when I drew up the MDC > listing. With Jim's posting of the photo, there's no mistaking that > this is an MDC Triple Hopper (Ribbed-Side); H-403 C&EI - Tuscan Red. I > think its safe to add the number of this car to the MDC listing. Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James Bartelt" <jimbartelt@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Loco and cars >> >> >> The C & EI car is not a gondola but a rib sided 3 bay hopper. So > don't think >> its an Ulrich. Thanks for the clue on the SP I was thinking it might > be an >> Ulrich. >> I am attaching a pic of the C&EI. >> >> James Bartelt >> jimbartelt@... >> >> METRO RR Club >> http://www.metrorrclub.org >> >> METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009 >> http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html >> >> >> >> Don't know for sure, never having had one, but the MDC triple hopper > list >> does list a C&EI car as a rib side triple, doesn't list a road number. >> >> Don >> >> Don Dellmann >> don.dellmann@... >> Owner >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6597	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers 7800 Series Additions, Wrap-Up

The last of what I have in additions, unless i go into the Super Detailing kits and the Interior kits. 7876 60' Utility Coach, Monitor Roof, C&NW 7877 70' Coach Sleeper (Dorm-Smoker), Monitor Roof, GN Empire Builder 7878 80' Luxury Chair, Arch Roof, GN Empire Builder 7880 75' Coach, Monitor Roff, NYC, CNJ, GN, LV, CB&Q, L&N, MP, N&W 7881 MKT, C&NW, N&W, SL-SF, C&O 7882 80' Coach, Monitor Roof, PRR, B&O, C&EI, NH, SP, D&RGW, IC, MKT 7883 WP, IC 7901 through 7905 (Circus Cars) -- These cars are not 85' long -- they are 80' long 7006 Troop Hospital Car -- This car is not 85' long, it is 80' long, lettered - United States Army 7907 Monon Coach -- This car is not 85' long, it is 80' long 9101 80' Business Car, Monitor Roof Favorite Prototype Cars -- all are Factory Painted Sides FP5-H 75' Coach -- High-Window, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 3345 Series FP7-H 75' Combine (2 Side Doors), Monitor Roof, NYC, others All for now, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6598	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction

Chuck, A correction (and additions) to the notations I made on the last page: The Circus Cars (# 7901 -- # 7905), all with Streamline Roofs and the Troop Hospital Car (# 7906), also with a Streamline Roof, ARE 85' cars, as per the catalogs (not 80'). The Monon Coach (# 7907), with Streamline Roof, is an 80' car, though. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > The last of what I have in additions, unless i go into the Super > Detailing kits and the Interior kits. > > 7876 60' Utility Coach, Monitor Roof, C&NW > > 7877 70' Coach Sleeper (Dorm-Smoker), Monitor Roof, GN Empire Builder > > 7878 80' Luxury Chair, Arch Roof, GN Empire Builder > > 7880 75' Coach, Monitor Roff, NYC, CNJ, GN, LV, CB&Q, L&N, MP, N&W > > 7881 MKT, C&NW, N&W, SL-SF, C&O > > 7882 80' Coach, Monitor Roof, PRR, B&O, C&EI, NH, SP, D&RGW, IC, MKT > > 7883 WP, IC > > 7901 through 7905 (Circus Cars) -- These cars are not 85' long -- > they are 80' long > > 7006 Troop Hospital Car -- This car is not 85' long, it is 80' long, > lettered - United States Army > > 7907 Monon Coach -- This car is not 85' long, it is 80' long > > 9101 80' Business Car, Monitor Roof > > Favorite Prototype Cars -- all are Factory Painted Sides > > FP5-H 75' Coach -- High-Window, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 3345 Series > > FP7-H 75' Combine (2 Side Doors), Monitor Roof, NYC, others > > All for now, Ray Wetzel >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6599	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: MYSTERY HOPPER

Attachments : Could of Jim's hopper been from Railmaster?  I did not find a add with pictures or a product review.   Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6600	From: erieberk	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re: Railmaster (?), was MYSTERY HOPPER

Hi Roger, Good thinking; before I saw Jim's photo I was also thinking of what other manufacturer this hopper could have been made by. Railmaster did not make any triple hoppers. In their ribbed side hoppers, they did not make a CE&I, so we can rule them out. Any hoppers that IMP made (and I'm not aware of them having a triple hopper) came undecorated. Briefly going into what Railmaster made, without going into all the numbers (only one per roadname, though), they are as follows. One of these days, we'll have to do a more comprehensive report on them. Ribbed Hopper (Twin): WP, CB&Q, BS, IC, RDG, Nat'l Plate Glass, GN, UP (White), UP (Yellow), PRR, Southern, Big Four (CCC&StL/NYC) Panel Hopper (Twin): SL-SF, MP, NYC, Wabash Composite Hopper (Twin): NKP, LV, Southern, ATSF, CRR (Clinchfield) Mill Gondola: D&RGW, ATSF, SP, B&O, DL&W, WM, ERIE, Southern, NKP, RDG, IC High Side Gondola: T&P, C&NW, ACL, C&O, L&N, MKT Stock Cars: UP, MKT Flat Car: I don't have any. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > Could of Jim's hopper been from Railmaster? I did not find a add with pictures or a product review. Roger Aultman >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6601	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/1/2008
Subject: Re; Walthers 7800 Series Additions, Continued

Ray, Do you have a word processor on your computer?  If so type these up in it, then copy and paste to a new email, to the group and you will only be on the email for a few seconds.  May not lose it then and if you do just copy and paste again. Regards,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:05 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re; Walthers 7800 Series Additions, Continued   Lost this batch once by making it too long. Trying again, but need to make it smaller, what a pain. 7856 75' Coach, Monitor Roof, ATSF # 303 - # 3067 7857 80'

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6602	From: Howard	Date: 7/2/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Alco kit info request

Thanks to all for the info on the Hobbytown locos. Looks like a fun project and I'll be sure to post the results, win loose or draw :-)! Cheers, Howard --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote: > > Howard, everything Jerry said is right on target, from what my meager one year of experience with hobbytown drives goes, but I've got a dozen built units and as many kits on the bench right now, so here's my two cents. > > do you have the instructions? many of the earlier hobbytown instr sheets are on the ho seeker site. > > overfiling is the only fatal error, just like Jerry said, be cautious. > > if you can, see if you can borrow an assembled running unit, that was the trick I needed to get my first kit assembled and running smoothly.  Don't take it apart (!), just take the shell off and rotate all the moving parts by hand for reference...I bought some used built units on ebay of the same model as my GP kits, and they really helped me to see what was supposed to be tight, and what could be loose. > > also, take note of which generation of hobbytown drives you're working on, the early drives have no flywheels, rubber shaft fittings, and the gear tower faces away from the motor, making it a much looser assembly overall, with the gear shaft at the top of the tower slipping in and out of synch if the rubber fitting isn't tight. > > later drives had gear towers facing the motor, which held all the gears in place better, flywheels, and great plastic /brass sliding universal drives.  these are a big improvement, and the only used units I look for now have these features. > > even later were can motors and plastic gears, but I've only seen those, not built one, so I can't say much about their assembly. > > --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Jerry Garteiser <jerryg@...> wrote: > From: Jerry Garteiser <jerryg@...> > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Alco kit info request > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 11:33 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Howard-congrats!  These things run and pull wonderfully if > built properly.  Most critical is > the assembly of the power trucks.   > Simply follow the directions to the letter and don¢t try and > second guess.  The bearings (both on > the drive shafts and the truck axles)  need to fit nice and snug (not tight, and > for sure not sloppy loose) in the slots of the truck assembly.  File a little at a time, and check > frequently of the snug fits.  Be > sure and clean out the slots of filings each time you check for the fit.   At final assembly of each truck, the > wheels should roll fairly easy when you push each truck  down the track.   Do expect some noise when it¢s all > put together, however-since the gears are all brass.  Lubricate the gears  sparingly with a thick oil-such as the LaBelle Gear Oil.  >   Other than that, nothing > magic about them.  I have the RS3 > (30+ years old now) and a GP-7 (with Athearn shell; > 20+ years old) that are two of my best runners.  Enjoy!!   JerryG > >   > > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf > Of holat88 > > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 10:15 > AM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown > Alco kit info request > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Hey Gang, > > I recently picked up a couple of old Hobbytown Kits (RSD-5 & RS-3) and > > would like to hear any suggestions (tricks , tips) regarding building > > them from anyone who has had past experience. > > Thanks, > > Howard >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6603	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/2/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

Amazingly, it didn't sell. But it has been relisted. Now I have to go through another 29 days agonizing over whether or not to buy it. Oops, oh .... wait a minute, I think I just decided not to get it. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6604	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/2/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader on ebay

It looks like a nice scratch project at those demanded prices.......... The new maker of the OK streamliner cars sells the raw extrusions with blank windows panels at $3.50 a foot. I'm thinking of the merits of splurging at 4-feet of the extrusions and putting a couple of Tyco/Mantua Pacific-mechs under the shrouds. And I sure won't be putting those ugly screws all over the shells !!! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jul 2, 2008, at 6:14 PM, John Hagen wrote: > Amazingly, it didn't sell. But it has been relisted. Now I have to go > through another 29 days agonizing over whether or not to buy it. > > > > Oops, oh .... wait a minute, I think I just decided not to get it. > > John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6605	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 7/3/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Walthers metal pass cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Walthers tinplate kits over the years You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Walthers%20metal%20pass%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6606	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/3/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction

Well that took some time, but I did build two more sections of bench work for my layout.  Please review and let me know what you find as I am sure there will be some things.  The 1973 listing has the Monon coach at 85’, as it was rebuilt from the hospital cars.  Please review you info on this please. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:52 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction   Chuck, A correction (and additions) to the notations I made on the last page: The Circus Cars (# 7901 -- # 7905), all with Streamline Roofs and the Troop Hospital Car (# 7906), also with a Streamline Roof, ARE 85' cars, as per the catalogs (not 80'). The Monon Coach (# 7907), with Streamline Roof, is an 80' car, though. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6607	From: erieberk	Date: 7/3/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction

Hi Chuck, I'm very curious; unless your 1973 listing that you used specifically describes these Monon coaches as being rebuilt from hospital cars, what would make you feel that this was the case. If they actually were rebuilt, as you've stated, it appears they must have been shortened too at this same time. The four Walthers catalogs I've found the Monon car in (1973, 1974, 1975 and 1977 -- I don't have 1976) all list the # 7907 Monon car as 80'. Do you know something I don't know -- like did Walthers repeatedly make a typo error in their catalogs on the length of this car? Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Well that took some time, but I did build two more sections of bench work > for my layout. Please review and let me know what you find as I am sure > there will be some things. The 1973 listing has the Monon coach at 85', as > it was rebuilt from the hospital cars. Please review you info on this > please. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:52 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction > > > > Chuck, A correction (and additions) to the notations I made on the > last page: The Circus Cars (# 7901 -- # 7905), all with Streamline > Roofs and the Troop Hospital Car (# 7906), also with a Streamline > Roof, ARE 85' cars, as per the catalogs (not 80'). The Monon Coach > (# 7907), with Streamline Roof, is an 80' car, though. Ray Wetzel >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6608	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/4/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction

Hi Ray, My source is the Walthers Passenger Car Plans, revised second edition published in 1973.  This book has the plans for both the Monon car and the hospital cars.  While the plans measure the same length, they could be different.  The note with the Monon cars is “Coaches numbered 21 through 26 were originally Hospital cars purchase from the US Army and converted at the La Fayette Shops in 1947.”  Page 67 of this book.  As far as Walther carrying an error for years, that is not a surprise.  I would think their editors believed the previous info to be correct and would not recheck every thing every year.  Even in their sales flyer they now mail monthly, some pages are repeats. Regards,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:14 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction   Hi Chuck, I'm very curious; unless your 1973 listing that you used specifically describes these Monon coaches as being rebuilt from hospital cars, what would make you feel that this was the case. If they actually were rebuilt, as you've stated, it appears they must have been shortened too at this same time. The four Walthers catalogs I've found the Monon car in (1973, 1974, 1975 and 1977 -- I don't have 1976) all list the # 7907 Monon car as 80'. Do you know something I don't know -- like did Walthers repeatedly make a typo error in their catalogs on the length of this car? Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote: > > Well that took some time, but I did build two more sections of bench work > for my layout. Please review and let me know what you find as I am sure > there will be some things. The 1973 listing has the Monon coach at 85', as > it was rebuilt from the hospital cars. Please review you info on this > please. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:52 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction > > > > Chuck, A correction (and additions) to the notations I made on the > last page: The Circus Cars (# 7901 -- # 7905), all with Streamline > Roofs and the Troop Hospital Car (# 7906), also with a Streamline > Roof, ARE 85' cars, as per the catalogs (not 80'). The Monon Coach > (# 7907), with Streamline Roof, is an 80' car, though. Ray Wetzel >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6609	From: erieberk	Date: 7/4/2008
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction

Hey Chuck, Thanks for a good answer, even though the result is not definitive. Quite the enigma, hard to know which Walthers' source to believe. Unless the plan book actually states the Monon car's length as 85' though, I'd be inclined to believe otherwise (with what else they've stated in the catalogs), even though I could still be wrong. As you said, Walthers could have overlooked one of their own mistakes, and let it go for years. Then too, it may still be possible that these Monon cars were shortened during their refurbishing, as I suggested (going with what the catalogs report). I guess we may never know. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, My source is the Walthers Passenger Car Plans, revised second > edition published in 1973. This book has the plans for both the Monon car > and the hospital cars. While the plans measure the same length, they could > be different. The note with the Monon cars is "Coaches numbered 21 through > 26 were originally Hospital cars purchase from the US Army and converted at > the La Fayette Shops in 1947." Page 67 of this book. As far as Walther > carrying an error for years, that is not a surprise. I would think their > editors believed the previous info to be correct and would not recheck every > thing every year. Even in their sales flyer they now mail monthly, some > pages are repeats. > > Regards, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:14 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction > > > > Hi Chuck, I'm very curious; unless your 1973 listing that you used > specifically describes these Monon coaches as being rebuilt from > hospital cars, what would make you feel that this was the case. If > they actually were rebuilt, as you've stated, it appears they must > have been shortened too at this same time. The four Walthers > catalogs I've found the Monon car in (1973, 1974, 1975 and 1977 -- I > don't have 1976) all list the # 7907 Monon car as 80'. Do you know > something I don't know -- like did Walthers repeatedly make a typo > error in their catalogs on the length of this car? Ray Wetzel > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Well that took some time, but I did build two more sections of > bench work > > for my layout. Please review and let me know what you find as I am > sure > > there will be some things. The 1973 listing has the Monon coach at > 85', as > > it was rebuilt from the hospital cars. Please review you info on > this > > please. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104> > webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:52 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com > > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction > > > > > > > > Chuck, A correction (and additions) to the notations I made on the > > last page: The Circus Cars (# 7901 -- # 7905), all with Streamline > > Roofs and the Troop Hospital Car (# 7906), also with a Streamline > > Roof, ARE 85' cars, as per the catalogs (not 80'). The Monon Coach > > (# 7907), with Streamline Roof, is an 80' car, though. Ray Wetzel > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6610	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/4/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction

Ray, The plan book does state the length as 85’.  I have also just checked a list by Bob Webber that has all lightweight cars listed on it. MONON 21 - 26 ex-USA 89377 - 89371 - 89394 - 89372 - 89390 - 89396 Chair 46 This list tells which cars were rebuilt to this Walthers car.  I see that the Monon bought 28 more of them and rebuilt them to 8 other configurations.  Including two as Parlor observation cars.  ACL also bought some of these cars and in another book “ACL Passenger Service” by Larry Goolsby, the length is listed as 84’ 6”.  So at this point, I will stay with the 85’. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 11:29 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Correction to a Correction   Hey Chuck, Thanks for a good answer, even though the result is not definitive. Quite the enigma, hard to know which Walthers' source to believe. Unless the plan book actually states the Monon car's length as 85' though, I'd be inclined to believe otherwise (with what else they've stated in the catalogs), even though I could still be wrong. As you said, Walthers could have overlooked one of their own mistakes, and let it go for years. Then too, it may still be possible that these Monon cars were shortened during their refurbishing, as I suggested (going with what the catalogs report). I guess we may never know. Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6611	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/4/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery Loco and cars

Number loaded.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 2:47 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Mystery Loco and cars   Good to see at least the files are being used for something, even though they may not be 100% complete. Ordinarily, by default (since no one else made a metal rib-side triple hopper, lettered for C&EI -- except MDC), this would seem to be a Roundhouse product even though I was missing the car number for that model when I drew up the MDC listing. With Jim's posting of the photo, there's no mistaking that this is an MDC Triple Hopper (Ribbed-Side) ; H-403 C&EI - Tuscan Red. I think its safe to add the number of this car to the MDC listing. Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6612	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Interesting find

Attachments : A friend brought over a couple cars last night, they didn't fit his layout theme (a free lance road based on the C&NW in the 1980's). One I looked at, "Oh, a Varney, nice". After he left when I went to change wheelsets I saw on the bottom "Rivarossi". It was a perfect clone of a Varney, even down to the die marks. "Gee, I don't recall AHM bringing this in", oh well...... (first picture) THIS MORNING I looked at it again and discovered it really WAS "vintage". (second picture) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6613	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: latest add

Attachments : Also added one more (makes 3) Varney cardstock 14 section pullman to my heavyweight version of the Milwaukee Northern "Badger". This is one of my "hybrids", original Varney sides and vents, Northeastern roof & floor, Bethlehem car works ends, Branchline Trains steps, Original MDC diecast trucks, Kadees. Have all the above parts to do at least one more.... Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6614	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Re: Interesting find

Is that a Lionel mark in the second picture? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:09 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Interesting find >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6615	From: Rick Jones	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Re: latest add

Don Dellmann wrote: > Also added one more (makes 3) Varney cardstock 14 section pullman to my > heavyweight version of the Milwaukee Northern "Badger". > > This is one of my "hybrids", original Varney sides and vents, Northeastern > roof & floor, Bethlehem car works ends, Branchline Trains steps, Original > MDC diecast trucks, Kadees. > Have all the above parts to do at least one more.... All of you guys that keep posting about the stuff you've just acquired and assembled are making me feel embarrassed for the years and years and years that I've been buying stuff and just socking it away waiting to get a round tuit. I finally decided it's time to get off my back (on the sofa watching TV) and work on some of them, even though the layout building still sits empty in the backyard waiting for a good track plan. I'm starting with some of the plastic kits first to get my hands and eyes back into practice. Currently doing an Intermountain 8,000 gallon tank car. Not the sort of thing to show on this list once it's done, but after I finish some of these and some Red Caboose and some P2K stuff, then I should be comfortable digging back into the Ambroids and Silver Streaks and Central Valleys, plus some of those Campbell, Sheepscot and FSM kits. I figure I can build up the structures on drop-in slabs for the future layout. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "A man's GOT to know his limits." -Inspector Harry Callahan, "Magnum Force"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6616	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Re: Interesting find

Yuppers. As I understand it, 'rossi made these for Lionel in the late 50's, before they switched to Athearn product. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Interesting find > Is that a Lionel mark in the second picture? gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:09 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Interesting find > > >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6617	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/6/2008
Subject: Re: latest add

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] latest add > Don Dellmann wrote: >> Also added one more (makes 3) Varney cardstock 14 section pullman to my >> heavyweight version of the Milwaukee Northern "Badger". >> >> This is one of my "hybrids", original Varney sides and vents, >> Northeastern >> roof & floor, Bethlehem car works ends, Branchline Trains steps, Original >> MDC diecast trucks, Kadees. >> Have all the above parts to do at least one more.... > > All of you guys that keep posting about the stuff you've just > acquired and assembled are making me feel embarrassed for the years and > years and years that I've been buying stuff and just socking it away > waiting to get a round tuit. I finally decided it's time to get off my > back (on the sofa watching TV) and work on some of them, even though the > layout building still sits empty in the backyard waiting for a good > track plan. > I'm starting with some of the plastic kits first to get my hands and > eyes back into practice. Currently doing an Intermountain 8,000 gallon > tank car. Not the sort of thing to show on this list once it's done, but > after I finish some of these and some Red Caboose and some P2K stuff, > then I should be comfortable digging back into the Ambroids and Silver > Streaks and Central Valleys, plus some of those Campbell, Sheepscot and > FSM kits. I figure I can build up the structures on drop-in slabs for > the future layout. > > -- > > Rick Jones Hey, if we got you off your duff and building again, that's a GOOD thing, regardless what you're building. :-) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6618	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Interesting find

Don, I just checked Greenberg's book on Lionel HO, and just for your info the Rivorossi/Lionel cars were only made two years, 1957 and 1958. There were only two gondolas, the PRR #357843 that you have and a black Michigan Central #15317. They may or may not appear with the Lionel logo on the cars. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Yuppers. > > As I understand it, 'rossi made these for Lionel in the late 50's, before > they switched to Athearn product. > > Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6619	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Prowler's New K28

Hi Ya'll, Prowler901's new K28 has been released, after years of dreaming of having at least one K28, I now have one, via virtual V scale models of course, can't afford any of the brassies out there, this one is very well detailed, as are all of Todd's creations, this one includes a functional cab, with real sounds from a real K28, including the whistle and bell, for those who do the V scale thing, and love US narrow gauge, this is a definite keeper......:o) Gary W http://youtube.com/watch?v=7hAb7D6a42w

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6620	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Interesting find

Thanks. I knew it was before the Athearn production, and that was ca. 1959 or so. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Interesting find > Don, > > I just checked Greenberg's book on Lionel HO, and just for your info > the Rivorossi/Lionel cars were only made two years, 1957 and 1958. > There were only two gondolas, the PRR #357843 that you have and a black > Michigan Central #15317. They may or may not appear with the Lionel > logo on the cars. > > Bill DeFoe > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> Yuppers. >> >> As I understand it, 'rossi made these for Lionel in the late 50's, > before >> they switched to Athearn product. >> >> Don > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6621	From: Rick Jones	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: latest add

Don Dellmann wrote: > > Hey, if we got you off your duff and building again, that's a GOOD thing, > regardless what you're building. :-) Another impetus was doing the progressive clinic at the recent LSR con. There was (were?) 5 sessions, in which we got a 12"x18" piece of blue foam, added track, a building(s), scenery and weathering to make a small diorama. The clinic was run by MMR Tracy Mitchell with assistance from some other top modelers from around Houston, and only cost $25. Much of the materials for the clinic were donated, hence the low cost for what we got. On an unrelated note, in the model contest MMR Barry Boggs's scratchbuilt G gauge D&RGW L-131 2-8-8-2 was amazing. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6622	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Reading Crusader

I recall a bit of commentary regarding a Reading Crusader on eBay starting around $1200--They may have gotten the idea from this one --150267856435  --an MTS brass one---at $1295--still steep--but then not "vintage"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6623	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader

Well. the Penn Line model is now in it's second 30 day listing sooooo Hey Don, do you or any of the groups SE Wisconsin members know Bill Davis of Waukesha, lister of the MTH model? John Hagen St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I recall a bit of commentary regarding a Reading Crusader on eBay starting around $1200--They may have gotten the idea from this one -- 150267856435 --an MTS brass one---at $1295--still steep--but then not "vintage" >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6624	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader

I don't. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:13 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Reading Crusader > Well. the Penn Line model is now in it's second 30 day listing sooooo > > Hey Don, do you or any of the groups SE Wisconsin members know Bill > Davis of Waukesha, lister of the MTH model? > > John Hagen > St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> I recall a bit of commentary regarding a Reading Crusader on eBay > starting around $1200--They may have gotten the idea from this one -- > 150267856435 --an MTS brass one---at $1295--still steep--but then > not "vintage" >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6625	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/7/2008
Subject: Re: Reading Crusader

I know him mainly from dealing with him--he operates as "American O Scale Services" but does sell other scales--calls himself "Brassmonger" on eBay. He liquidated collections and estates--he helped a friend's widow and son dispose of a big On3 collection last year. I would not hesitate to deal with him. gj the loco is MTS --(HO)not MTH--(O Hi-Rail) [vintageHO] Re: Reading Crusader >I don't. > >>> >> Hey Don, do you or any of the groups SE Wisconsin members know Bill >> Davis of Waukesha, lister of the MTH model? >>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6626	From: Maynard Keith Franklin	Date: 7/9/2008
Subject: Old Athearn Metal RDC's

Hello, group! I am a retired Civil Engineer, who started HO railroading in the 1940's. Now I am trying to ressurect my stuff. I have 3 early Athearn metal-bodied RDC's, and one of my non-powered trucks has disintegrated. Is there anyone out there who has a spare truck for one of these cars? Sure hope so! Maynard Keith Franklin N91472@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6627	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/9/2008
Subject: FW: A Fleisch in the Penn?

Attachments : I think some of us may enjoy this. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 _____ From: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andy Harman Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 9:17 PM To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][PCL] A Fleisch in the Penn? I had no idea: http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/5a7vkp> com/5a7vkp I've seen the Fleischmann cars in UP, even have some of 'em, and the Gilbert NP cars, but I've never seen the Fleischmann German/Swiss(?) tinplate cars in NP, under the Penn Line banner. Learn something new every day.... Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6628	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/9/2008
Subject: Re: Old Athearn Metal RDC's

Maynard--did you ask about this a week or two ago? if so--if you can get me a set of the sideframes from the Proto-1000's dummy truck, my spare Athearn truck is yours (I did tell someone I might have one-- I'm trying a more recent Athearn sideframe but the "Bull Ant" truck has a styrene mount so a frame that will respond to MEK would work better for me. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maynard Keith Franklin" <N91472@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 2:03 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Old Athearn Metal RDC's > Hello, group! > > I am a retired Civil Engineer, who started HO railroading in the > 1940's. Now I am trying to ressurect my stuff. > > I have 3 early Athearn metal-bodied RDC's, and one of my non-powered > trucks has disintegrated. > > Is there anyone out there who has a spare truck for one of these cars? > > Sure hope so! > > Maynard Keith Franklin > N91472@... > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6629	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Over The High Line

Hi Ya'll, Again, it never fails, I even amaze myself sometimes, as many of you know, I've been working on my virtual Durango & Silverton line, with the release of Todd (prowler901) Holenkamp's fantastic K28 No.470, it makes it that much more realistic, its amazing that in a box as small as my computer, that I can make an entire 45 mile long railroad, (isn't that what virtual model railroading is all about?). For a number of years, I have always enjoyed narrow gauge railroading, especially Colorado narrow gauge, since I was born and raised in Denver, Colorado, and did get the wonderful opportunity to ride what was then, the Denver & Rio Grande Western narrow gauge line from Durango to Silverton, I have always wanted to model that line, naturally, modeling the entire route in HO scale would require a rather large room, hence I got involved in virtual railroading, or V scale, the High Line is coming along nicely, I have all 45 miles of main line track laid, just need to make the adjustments, and add a few more sidings and wye tracks, in this video you can see how the High Line is coming together and really beginning to take shape.....Enjoy!!!:o) http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ofWwa-WAUw Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6630	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Over The High Line

Hey Gary.    Your link to the u-tube dosn't seem to work.  Thanks, Larry GROWING OLD IS MANDATORY, GROWING UP IS OPTIONAL --- On Sat, 7/12/08, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Over The High Line To: all-railroads@yahoogroups.com, virtual_train_modeling@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:49 AM Hi Ya'll, Again, it never fails, I even amaze myself sometimes, as many of you know, I've been working on my virtual Durango & Silverton line, with the release of Todd (prowler901) Holenkamp's fantastic K28 No.470, it makes it that much more realistic, its amazing that in a box as small as my computer, that I can make an entire 45 mile long railroad, (isn't that what virtual model railroading is all about?). For a number of years, I have always enjoyed narrow gauge railroading, especially Colorado narrow gauge, since I was born and raised in Denver, Colorado, and did get the wonderful opportunity to ride what was then, the Denver & Rio Grande Western narrow gauge line from Durango to Silverton, I have always wanted to model that line, naturally, modeling the entire route in HO scale would require a rather large room, hence I got involved in virtual railroading, or V scale, the High Line is coming along nicely, I have all 45 miles of main line track laid, just need to make the adjustments, and add a few more sidings and wye tracks, in this video you can see how the High Line is coming together and really beginning to take shape.....Enjoy! !!:o) http://youtube. com/watch? v=4ofWwa- WAUw Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6631	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Need to Find

Help! I have just discovered that I have an ever increasing desire (make that need) to build a 1940 Ford Roadway semi truck. The trailer won’t be difficult nor the lettering but the tractor is something else again. I am thinking I can come with a reasonable cab using either a sedan or pick-up cab, and the chassis/tires won’t be any problem, but the hood, front fenders and grille…… The fenders could be maybe adapted from something else of the era as they almost all had similar “pontoon” type fenders but the hood and grille looks like someone took a ’39 (or ’40 standard) Ford car and ran it into a very flat wall at 37.3 mph.   Any help will be appreciated.   John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake ), WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6632	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Need to Find

Naturally I forgot to mention that I am doing this in 1:87 (HO) scale. I mean, why would that be important. Crs, crs, crs…..   John Hagen St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake ), WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6633	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Need to Find

You may try this link, there are several older style trucks that you could bash to make you truck. They average about $6.50 each. http://www.actionfarmtoys.com/87ho.htm Hope it helps, Brian L.   In a message dated 7/12/2008 11:14:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sprinthag@... writes: Help! I have just discovered that I have an ever increasing desire (make that need) to build a 1940 Ford Roadway semi truck. The trailer won’t be difficult nor the lettering but the tractor is something else again. I am thinking I can come with a reasonable cab using either a sedan or pick-up cab, and the chassis/tires won’t be any problem, but the hood, front fenders and grille…… The fenders could be maybe adapted from something else of the era as they almost all had similar “pontoon” type fenders but the hood and grille looks like someone took a ’39 (or ’40 standard) Ford car and ran it into a very flat wall at 37.3 mph. Any help will be appreciated. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake ), WI Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6634	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Need to Find

Another link to some nice HO scale vehicles. http://www.debenllc.com/servlet/Categories?category=Main+Street+Motor+Co%3A-+1%2F87+Scale   Brian L. In a message dated 7/12/2008 11:18:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sprinthag@... writes: Naturally I forgot to mention that I am doing this in 1:87 (HO) scale. I mean, why would that be important. Crs, crs, crs….. John Hagen St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake ), WI Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6635	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Over The High Line

Hi Larry, I don't know why some emails it works fine, and others it doesn't even provide a hot link, if you copy and paste the link, you will have to put your curser into the address window, and will have to backspace a couple of things. If all else fails, just do a search for betsy662 on youtube, and that will bring up all my videos........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6636	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 7/12/2008
Subject: Re: Over The High Line

COOL! Thank You Sir. Larry GROWING OLD IS MANDATORY, GROWING UP IS OPTIONAL --- On Sat, 7/12/08, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Over The High Line To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 4:58 PM Hi Larry, I don't know why some emails it works fine, and others it doesn't even provide a hot link, if you copy and paste the link, you will have to put your curser into the address window, and will have to backspace a couple of things. If all else fails, just do a search for betsy662 on youtube, and that will bring up all my videos...... ..:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6637	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 7/14/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Railmaster cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Railmaster cars You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Railmaster%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6638	From: erieberk	Date: 7/15/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hi Chuck, I noticed your separate heading for Covered Hopper. I don't recall mentioning that, but the National Plate Glass ribbed hopper is also a covered hopper. It comes with a shaped piece of basswood to be installed onto the metal sides, as the hopper's top. Most probably, this was meant to be a sand hopper for the glass industry. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO > group. > > File : /V List Railmaster cars.xls > Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> > Description : List of Railmaster cars > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Railmaster% 20cars.xls > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htm lfiles > > Regards, > > chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6639	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/15/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hi Ray, Yes, you did not mention the covered hopper, but the ad that was posted from the 1949 Model Railroader did.  So I added it just incase somebody knew of any.  It looks like you know of one, so I will adjust the list soon. Thanks and take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:31 AM To: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][ vintageHO ] Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO   Hi Chuck, I noticed your separate heading for Covered Hopper. I don't recall mentioning that, but the National Plate Glass ribbed hopper is also a covered hopper. It comes with a shaped piece of basswood to be installed onto the metal sides, as the hopper's top. Most probably, this was meant to be a sand hopper for the glass industry. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO > group. > > File : /V List Railmaster cars.xls > Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@. ..> > Description : List of Railmaster cars > > You can access this file at the URL: > href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Railmaster%25">http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ files/V%20List% 20Railmaster% 20cars.xls > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/ members/web/ index.htm lfiles > > Regards, > > chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@. ..> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6640	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi Guys, I just posted pics of a mystery 4-8-4 chassis I have.. Any ideas? Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6641	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Sean, post the name of the album so members can find it easier. There's a glitch in Yahoo that "new photos" aren't showing up as "new" so you have to go directly to the album to view them. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > Hi Guys, > > I just posted pics of a mystery 4-8-4 chassis I have.. Any ideas? > > Sean > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6642	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi Don, The photo album is named "Mystery 4-8-4"   It is really neat and old, I might add... Maybe from the 40's - early 50's or even 30's.. The detail is rough and somewhat basic, compared to todays standards... but either way.. really neat.   Thanks Don for letting me know,   Sean --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:04 PM Sean, post the name of the album so members can find it easier. There's a glitch in Yahoo that "new photos" aren't showing up as "new" so you have to go directly to the album to view them. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > Hi Guys, > > I just posted pics of a mystery 4-8-4 chassis I have.. Any ideas? > > Sean > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6643	From: erieberk	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Sean, We first have to keep in mind there were not many manufacturers of 4-8-4's back then (and there were not that many H0 engine manufacturers). Without a top view to get a better look at the frame, all's I can say is that if this frame is made of solid milled brass bar stock, its most likely a Conover (pre-War). Glimpses I can see of the frame hints that it may be channel brass. If this is the case, its most likely George Stock (from the post-War 1940's), a kit producer/custom builder, which fits right in with some of the components as some of the parts he used were bought from other manufacturers. In this case, at least the lead truck looks to be Walthers -- from their pre-War Baltic 4-6-4 Hudson -- its a dead ringer. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hi Don, > > The photo album is named "Mystery 4-8-4" >   > It is really neat and old, I might add... Maybe from the 40's - early 50's or even 30's.. The detail is rough and somewhat basic, compared to todays standards... but either way.. really neat. >   > Thanks Don for letting me know, >   > Sean > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:04 PM > > > > > > > Sean, post the name of the album so members can find it easier. There's a > glitch in Yahoo that "new photos" aren't showing up as "new" so you have to > go directly to the album to view them. > > Don > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@ prodigy.net > Owner > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:20 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I just posted pics of a mystery 4-8-4 chassis I have.. Any ideas? > > > > Sean > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6644	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi Ray, My strongest feeling is that this is pre-war. It came from the same source as a pre-war Mantua Consolidation, a prewar Mantua Pacific valve gear kit in the box, and the pre-war mantua Mountain Type Mechanism kit. There were two other incomplete chassis that looked to be scratch built in the lot, but this looks to be made from a slightly higher level of skill.   I have added four additional pictures..   It is made of solid bar-stock, not channel.   Sean --- On Wed, 7/16/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk <erieberk@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:54 PM Sean, We first have to keep in mind there were not many manufacturers of 4-8-4's back then (and there were not that many H0 engine manufacturers) . Without a top view to get a better look at the frame, all's I can say is that if this frame is made of solid milled brass bar stock, its most likely a Conover (pre-War). Glimpses I can see of the frame hints that it may be channel brass. If this is the case, its most likely George Stock (from the post-War 1940's), a kit producer/custom builder, which fits right in with some of the components as some of the parts he used were bought from other manufacturers. In this case, at least the lead truck looks to be Walthers -- from their pre-War Baltic 4-6-4 Hudson -- its a dead ringer. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Don, > > The photo album is named "Mystery 4-8-4" >   > It is really neat and old, I might add... Maybe from the 40's - early 50's or even 30's.. The detail is rough and somewhat basic, compared to todays standards... but either way.. really neat. >   > Thanks Don for letting me know, >   > Sean > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote: > > From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:04 PM > > > > > > > Sean, post the name of the album so members can find it easier. There's a > glitch in Yahoo that "new photos" aren't showing up as "new" so you have to > go directly to the album to view them. > > Don > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@ prodigy.net > Owner > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:20 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I just posted pics of a mystery 4-8-4 chassis I have.. Any ideas? > > > > Sean > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6645	From: erieberk	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Sean, I still only see 5 photos under your Mystery 4-8-4. Anyhow, like I said, if this frame is made of solid bar stock, then its pre- War (as you figured), and its Conover. The pre-War Consol and Pacific valve gear kits are always worth having as fixer-up parts in case you run across those models that need TLC. As for a pre-War Mantua Mountain type mechanism, Mantua never made a Mountain type engine before the War -- Their cast 2-8-2 Mikado that didn't come out until September 1951 was the largest straight-frame engine they had until Norman S. Tyler bought back the company from Tyco around 1980, after Tyco bought out Norman's father, John N. Then they not only had a Berkshire, but they had a Decapod and a Hudson as well. Now, if you could only find the boiler to that Conover mechanism! Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > My strongest feeling is that this is pre-war. It came from the same source as a pre-war Mantua Consolidation, a prewar Mantua Pacific valve gear kit in the box, and the pre-war mantua Mountain Type Mechanism kit. There were two other incomplete chassis that looked to be scratch built in the lot, but this looks to be made from a slightly higher level of skill. >   > I have added four additional pictures.. >   > It is made of solid bar-stock, not channel. >   > Sean > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: > > From: erieberk <erieberk@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:54 PM > > > > > > > Sean, We first have to keep in mind there were not many manufacturers > of 4-8-4's back then (and there were not that many H0 engine > manufacturers) . Without a top view to get a better look at the > frame, all's I can say is that if this frame is made of solid milled > brass bar stock, its most likely a Conover (pre-War). Glimpses I can > see of the frame hints that it may be channel brass. If this is the > case, its most likely George Stock (from the post-War 1940's), a kit > producer/custom builder, which fits right in with some of the > components as some of the parts he used were bought from other > manufacturers. In this case, at least the lead truck looks to be > Walthers -- from their pre-War Baltic 4-6-4 Hudson -- its a dead > ringer. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Don, > > > > The photo album is named "Mystery 4-8-4" > >   > > It is really neat and old, I might add... Maybe from the 40's - > early 50's or even 30's.. The detail is rough and somewhat basic, > compared to todays standards... but either way.. really neat. > >   > > Thanks Don for letting me know, > >   > > Sean > > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote: > > > > From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:04 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean, post the name of the album so members can find it easier. > There's a > > glitch in Yahoo that "new photos" aren't showing up as "new" so you > have to > > go directly to the album to view them. > > > > Don > > Don Dellmann > > don.dellmann@ prodigy.net > > Owner > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:20 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I just posted pics of a mystery 4-8-4 chassis I have.. Any ideas? > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6646	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi Ray,   Sorry, I loaded them onto Yardbird as well and i only updated that file.. They are loading here now as well..   Thanks, Sean --- On Wed, 7/16/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk <erieberk@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 10:43 PM Sean, I still only see 5 photos under your Mystery 4-8-4. Anyhow, like I said, if this frame is made of solid bar stock, then its pre- War (as you figured), and its Conover. The pre-War Consol and Pacific valve gear kits are always worth having as fixer-up parts in case you run across those models that need TLC. As for a pre-War Mantua Mountain type mechanism, Mantua never made a Mountain type engine before the War -- Their cast 2-8-2 Mikado that didn't come out until September 1951 was the largest straight-frame engine they had until Norman S. Tyler bought back the company from Tyco around 1980, after Tyco bought out Norman's father, John N. Then they not only had a Berkshire, but they had a Decapod and a Hudson as well. Now, if you could only find the boiler to that Conover mechanism! Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > My strongest feeling is that this is pre-war. It came from the same source as a pre-war Mantua Consolidation, a prewar Mantua Pacific valve gear kit in the box, and the pre-war mantua Mountain Type Mechanism kit. There were two other incomplete chassis that looked to be scratch built in the lot, but this looks to be made from a slightly higher level of skill. >   > I have added four additional pictures.. >   > It is made of solid bar-stock, not channel. >   > Sean > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, erieberk <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > From: erieberk <erieberk@.. .> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:54 PM > > > > > > > Sean, We first have to keep in mind there were not many manufacturers > of 4-8-4's back then (and there were not that many H0 engine > manufacturers) . Without a top view to get a better look at the > frame, all's I can say is that if this frame is made of solid milled > brass bar stock, its most likely a Conover (pre-War). Glimpses I can > see of the frame hints that it may be channel brass. If this is the > case, its most likely George Stock (from the post-War 1940's), a kit > producer/custom builder, which fits right in with some of the > components as some of the parts he used were bought from other > manufacturers. In this case, at least the lead truck looks to be > Walthers -- from their pre-War Baltic 4-6-4 Hudson -- its a dead > ringer. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Don, > > > > The photo album is named "Mystery 4-8-4" > >   > > It is really neat and old, I might add... Maybe from the 40's - > early 50's or even 30's.. The detail is rough and somewhat basic, > compared to todays standards... but either way.. really neat. > >   > > Thanks Don for letting me know, > >   > > Sean > > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote: > > > > From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:04 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean, post the name of the album so members can find it easier. > There's a > > glitch in Yahoo that "new photos" aren't showing up as "new" so you > have to > > go directly to the album to view them. > > > > Don > > Don Dellmann > > don.dellmann@ prodigy.net > > Owner > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:20 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I just posted pics of a mystery 4-8-4 chassis I have.. Any ideas? > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6647	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Ray...   i just read your message about the mantua Mountain...   ah.. here it is...   I willpost pics in about 5 minutes after this post...   Sean --- On Wed, 7/16/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk <erieberk@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 10:43 PM Sean, I still only see 5 photos under your Mystery 4-8-4. Anyhow, like I said, if this frame is made of solid bar stock, then its pre- War (as you figured), and its Conover. The pre-War Consol and Pacific valve gear kits are always worth having as fixer-up parts in case you run across those models that need TLC. As for a pre-War Mantua Mountain type mechanism, Mantua never made a Mountain type engine before the War -- Their cast 2-8-2 Mikado that didn't come out until September 1951 was the largest straight-frame engine they had until Norman S. Tyler bought back the company from Tyco around 1980, after Tyco bought out Norman's father, John N. Then they not only had a Berkshire, but they had a Decapod and a Hudson as well. Now, if you could only find the boiler to that Conover mechanism! Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > My strongest feeling is that this is pre-war. It came from the same source as a pre-war Mantua Consolidation, a prewar Mantua Pacific valve gear kit in the box, and the pre-war mantua Mountain Type Mechanism kit. There were two other incomplete chassis that looked to be scratch built in the lot, but this looks to be made from a slightly higher level of skill. >   > I have added four additional pictures.. >   > It is made of solid bar-stock, not channel. >   > Sean > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, erieberk <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > From: erieberk <erieberk@.. .> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:54 PM > > > > > > > Sean, We first have to keep in mind there were not many manufacturers > of 4-8-4's back then (and there were not that many H0 engine > manufacturers) . Without a top view to get a better look at the > frame, all's I can say is that if this frame is made of solid milled > brass bar stock, its most likely a Conover (pre-War). Glimpses I can > see of the frame hints that it may be channel brass. If this is the > case, its most likely George Stock (from the post-War 1940's), a kit > producer/custom builder, which fits right in with some of the > components as some of the parts he used were bought from other > manufacturers. In this case, at least the lead truck looks to be > Walthers -- from their pre-War Baltic 4-6-4 Hudson -- its a dead > ringer. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Don, > > > > The photo album is named "Mystery 4-8-4" > >   > > It is really neat and old, I might add... Maybe from the 40's - > early 50's or even 30's.. The detail is rough and somewhat basic, > compared to todays standards... but either way.. really neat. > >   > > Thanks Don for letting me know, > >   > > Sean > > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote: > > > > From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:04 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean, post the name of the album so members can find it easier. > There's a > > glitch in Yahoo that "new photos" aren't showing up as "new" so you > have to > > go directly to the album to view them. > > > > Don > > Don Dellmann > > don.dellmann@ prodigy.net > > Owner > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:20 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I just posted pics of a mystery 4-8-4 chassis I have.. Any ideas? > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6648	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

I posted 2 pics Ray.   One of the contents of the box as I got it.. (note the pre-war pacific chassis as well..) One of the label on the box   I also made a folder:   "Mantua PreWWII Mountain Mechanism Kit"   Later!   Sean --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 10:57 PM Ray...   i just read your message about the mantua Mountain...   ah.. here it is...   I willpost pics in about 5 minutes after this post...   Sean --- On Wed, 7/16/08, erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect. com> wrote: From: erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect. com> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 10:43 PM Sean, I still only see 5 photos under your Mystery 4-8-4. Anyhow, like I said, if this frame is made of solid bar stock, then its pre- War (as you figured), and its Conover. The pre-War Consol and Pacific valve gear kits are always worth having as fixer-up parts in case you run across those models that need TLC. As for a pre-War Mantua Mountain type mechanism, Mantua never made a Mountain type engine before the War -- Their cast 2-8-2 Mikado that didn't come out until September 1951 was the largest straight-frame engine they had until Norman S. Tyler bought back the company from Tyco around 1980, after Tyco bought out Norman's father, John N. Then they not only had a Berkshire, but they had a Decapod and a Hudson as well. Now, if you could only find the boiler to that Conover mechanism! Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > My strongest feeling is that this is pre-war. It came from the same source as a pre-war Mantua Consolidation, a prewar Mantua Pacific valve gear kit in the box, and the pre-war mantua Mountain Type Mechanism kit. There were two other incomplete chassis that looked to be scratch built in the lot, but this looks to be made from a slightly higher level of skill. >   > I have added four additional pictures.. >   > It is made of solid bar-stock, not channel. >   > Sean > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, erieberk <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > From: erieberk <erieberk@.. .> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:54 PM > > > > > > > Sean, We first have to keep in mind there were not many manufacturers > of 4-8-4's back then (and there were not that many H0 engine > manufacturers) . Without a top view to get a better look at the > frame, all's I can say is that if this frame is made of solid milled > brass bar stock, its most likely a Conover (pre-War). Glimpses I can > see of the frame hints that it may be channel brass. If this is the > case, its most likely George Stock (from the post-War 1940's), a kit > producer/custom builder, which fits right in with some of the > components as some of the parts he used were bought from other > manufacturers. In this case, at least the lead truck looks to be > Walthers -- from their pre-War Baltic 4-6-4 Hudson -- its a dead > ringer. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Don, > > > > The photo album is named "Mystery 4-8-4" > >   > > It is really neat and old, I might add... Maybe from the 40's - > early 50's or even 30's.. The detail is rough and somewhat basic, > compared to todays standards... but either way.. really neat. > >   > > Thanks Don for letting me know, > >   > > Sean > > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote: > > > > From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ ...> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:04 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean, post the name of the album so members can find it easier. > There's a > > glitch in Yahoo that "new photos" aren't showing up as "new" so you > have to > > go directly to the album to view them. > > > > Don > > Don Dellmann > > don.dellmann@ prodigy.net > > Owner > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:20 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I just posted pics of a mystery 4-8-4 chassis I have.. Any ideas? > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6649	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 7/16/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8-4, and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a few shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had this engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere (maybe I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us to identify it. Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an engine.  Hard to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have them.   Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6650	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi Ray,   No.. the engine is not complete.. The shell is a Varney Mountain sitting on top of the chassis.   The mntua Mountain is in a folder labeled Mantua Mountain. As for the rarity of such a piece.. I have already had someone offer me $250 for it. Obviously I turned him down.. I traded a complete Varney Super Mikado to get it.. The frame piece that is.. The guy I got it from had sent me the box with the pacific chassis and I read l the label and began to shake. I immediately began to bug him for it.. I went ahead and made him an offer he could not refuse..  Bowser Big Boy or $100 + a Penn Line T1 kit.. or an engine of his choice of equal value to the Big boy...  He asked if I had the Varney.. I had one, so away it went...   So.. All I have is the box and chassis frame... The drivers are missing, but pacific drivers should work. however I believe I need 72" drivers and I have no idea where I might find those...   I have also attached your pics..   Sean --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:21 AM Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8-4, and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a few shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had this engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere (maybe I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us to identify it. Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an engine.  Hard to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have them.   Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6651	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi Sean, I thought that boiler shell looked very much like a Varney (Northern), but then I just figured that some manufacturers took some liberties in designing some of their products similar to existing ones, with changing them just enough to get away with it. I've never seen a complete Conover 4-8-4, but just like you, I have a Conover 4- 8-4 mechanism. I'll have to go back into the MR mags to see if there are ads. I see you posted a prototype photo of the CNW 3035 4-8-4 in the Mystery 4-8-4 photo listing. I wonder how closely Conover modeled it. BTW, I presume your mention of a Varney Mountain is just a typing error -- Varney never made a Mountain type engine. I did find the Mantua Mountain mechanism, which I found to be very interesting. Since Mantua never had a Mountain type engine in their catalogs (I have them all up until 1953, then they're scatterred from there), nor do I recall them ever advertising one pre-War (I have all the pre-War MR's except Jan., Oct. and Nov of 1938 and Dec. of 1941), I can only explain it as their offering this mechanism only, much as Walthers offered a mechanism for the StromBecker RI Rocket and Bowser offered mechanism parts in the 1970's for the the Penn Line Crusader. In any case, its quite the rarity. I have no idea what you could use for a boiler though. That's quite the trade! I don't know if I would part with one of my Varney Super Mikes for it, but then, you can always find another Varney Super engine sooner or later if you wait long enough (even though they're hardly every cheap). I did notice you're missing a set of drivers (I only see 3 sets of drivers), but like you said, it would seem that the Pacific drivers would fit (hard to know precisely from a photograph). If not, use a Varney 72" driver set, if the spoking looks similar, or change them all to Varney if you need 72" drivers. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, >   > No.. the engine is not complete.. The shell is a Varney Mountain sitting on top of the chassis. >   > The mntua Mountain is in a folder labeled Mantua Mountain. As for the rarity of such a piece.. I have already had someone offer me $250 for it. Obviously I turned him down.. I traded a complete Varney Super Mikado to get it.. The frame piece that is.. The guy I got it from had sent me the box with the pacific chassis and I read l the label and began to shake. I immediately began to bug him for it.. I went ahead and made him an offer he could not refuse..  Bowser Big Boy or $100 + a Penn Line T1 kit.. or an engine of his choice of equal value to the Big boy...  He asked if I had the Varney.. I had one, so away it went... >   > So.. All I have is the box and chassis frame... The drivers are missing, but pacific drivers should work. however I believe I need 72" drivers and I have no idea where I might find those... >   > I have also attached your pics.. >   > Sean > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: > > From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:21 AM > > > > > > > Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8-4, and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a few shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had this engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere (maybe I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us to identify it. > > Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an engine.  Hard to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have them.   Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6652	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi again Sean, I found the answer to your Mantua Mountain, and it was right in front of me even last night when I researched it, but I just continued reading past it each time. Both the 1938 and the 1939 Mantua catalogs list this mechanism -- but this mechanism ONLY -- NO BOILER. I had thought they were referring to the Consolidation mechanism when I kept looking through the catalogs. While the complete Pacific and the Atlantic kits were not offered in the catalogs until 1939, the complete Consol kit was offered from 1938, on. In addition to the this, the mechanisms were (except for the Atlantic) were also offered. Your mechanism is listed in the 1938 catalog on page 24 as being available for either 2-rail or 3-rail operation (depending on which kit you choose). In the 1939 catalog, it is found on page 30, as available for 2-rail operation only. The catalog insertion (from 1938) states: MECHANISM FOR FAST FREIGHT OR PASSENGER WOrk (PHOTO) The above Mechanism is constructed just like the CONSOLIDATION shown on page 20. It is 8-coupled with scale 72" Drivers. Suitable for an ALL-PURPOSE LOCOMOTIVE. 72" MECHANISM complete for 3-rail . . . . $11.50 72" MECHANISM complete for 2-rail . . . . $12.50 FULLY MACHINED KITS that require ABSOLUTLEY NO Machining -- complete with ALL WHEELS MOUNTED. Completed and tested Motor. all gearing mounted with FULL assembly Instructions: 3-Rail $8.50 * 2-Rail $9.00 There is no mention of this kit being for a Berkshire in any of the catalogs, but this fits its description. The first prices reflect factory assembled mechanisms, while the latter prices reflect the kit prices. Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, >   > The mntua Mountain is in a folder labeled Mantua Mountain. As for the rarity of such a piece.. I have already had someone offer me $250 for it. Obviously I turned him down.. I traded a complete Varney Super Mikado to get it.. The frame piece that is.. The guy I got it from had sent me the box with the pacific chassis and I read l the label and began to shake. I immediately began to bug him for it.. I went ahead and made him an offer he could not refuse..  Bowser Big Boy or $100 + a Penn Line T1 kit.. or an engine of his choice of equal value to the Big boy...  He asked if I had the Varney.. I had one, so away it went... >   > So.. All I have is the box and chassis frame... The drivers are missing, but pacific drivers should work. however I believe I need 72" drivers and I have no idea where I might find those... >   > I have also attached your pics.. >   > Sean > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: > > From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:21 AM > > > > > > > Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8-4, and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a few shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had this engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere (maybe I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us to identify it. > > Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an engine.  Hard to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have them.   Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6653	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Sean, Following up on your Mantua mechanism, all Mantua literature I have states that both the Mantua Atlantic and the Pacific take 80" drivers, so these could not be used for your Berkshire mechanism. Mantua did make 72" drivers though, that they used for the Belle 4-4- 0. The part numbers for these drivers (if you can find them), as found in Mantua's comprehensive H0 Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia 1926 - 1953, are: # 25038 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C" # 25043 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C", with No. 6644 Nylon Worm Gear, 30T, 64 Pitch Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, >   > The mntua Mountain is in a folder labeled Mantua Mountain. As for the rarity of such a piece.. I have already had someone offer me $250 for it. Obviously I turned him down.. I traded a complete Varney Super Mikado to get it.. The frame piece that is.. The guy I got it from had sent me the box with the pacific chassis and I read l the label and began to shake. I immediately began to bug him for it.. I went ahead and made him an offer he could not refuse..  Bowser Big Boy or $100 + a Penn Line T1 kit.. or an engine of his choice of equal value to the Big boy...  He asked if I had the Varney.. I had one, so away it went... >   > So.. All I have is the box and chassis frame... The drivers are missing, but pacific drivers should work. however I believe I need 72" drivers and I have no idea where I might find those... >   > I have also attached your pics.. >   > Sean > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: > > From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:21 AM > > > > > > > Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8-4, and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a few shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had this engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere (maybe I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us to identify it. > > Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an engine.  Hard to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have them.   Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6654	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi Ray..   The driver info is great to know.. I have a couple belles and they are readily avaliable for use as parts..   although.. I never had a question about this Mantua Mountain Mechanism.. I already knew they were offered as the Mechanism only.. I emailed you the pic of the 1941 catalog page depicting this mechanism earlier ths morning...   My question is on the 4-8-4 chassis.. Conover.. I could find no info on-line of the company?   Did I read right?? You say you have a mechanisin like this one??   Sean --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk <erieberk@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 9:13 AM Sean, Following up on your Mantua mechanism, all Mantua literature I have states that both the Mantua Atlantic and the Pacific take 80" drivers, so these could not be used for your Berkshire mechanism. Mantua did make 72" drivers though, that they used for the Belle 4-4- 0. The part numbers for these drivers (if you can find them), as found in Mantua's comprehensive H0 Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia 1926 - 1953, are: # 25038 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C" # 25043 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C", with No. 6644 Nylon Worm Gear, 30T, 64 Pitch Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, >   > The mntua Mountain is in a folder labeled Mantua Mountain. As for the rarity of such a piece.. I have already had someone offer me $250 for it. Obviously I turned him down.. I traded a complete Varney Super Mikado to get it.. The frame piece that is.. The guy I got it from had sent me the box with the pacific chassis and I read l the label and began to shake. I immediately began to bug him for it.. I went ahead and made him an offer he could not refuse..  Bowser Big Boy or $100 + a Penn Line T1 kit.. or an engine of his choice of equal value to the Big boy...  He asked if I had the Varney.. I had one, so away it went... >   > So.. All I have is the box and chassis frame... The drivers are missing, but pacific drivers should work. however I believe I need 72" drivers and I have no idea where I might find those... >   > I have also attached your pics.. >   > Sean > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > From: erieberk@... <erieberk@.. .> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:21 AM > > > > > > > Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8-4, and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a few shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had this engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere (maybe I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us to identify it. > > Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an engine.  Hard to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have them.   Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6655	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Sean, Glad you could use the Belle/Driver info. I didn't find the pic of your 1941 Mantua catalog, although I did see the pics of the Contents of the box and the Label for the box (haven't looked further yet). With your mention of that, I pulled those catalogs out of mine and saw I should have looked at them more closely instead of just skimming over them. Both of the Mantua 1941 catalogs, the First Edition and the Second Edition, have the Mechanism on page 30, listed as "MECHANISM FOR MOUNTAIN TYPE LOCOMOTIVES" with the price of the Fully Machined assembly Kit at $10.00 and the Assembled (R-T-R) version at $15.00. So there it is; I guess I had forgotten all about that piece. The 1942 Mantua catalog (First Edition) has this same description on page 32, but now the assembly Kit is $16.50 and the Assembled Readt to Run is $22.50. The later 1942 Editions for this same mechanism do not have any prices listed for any of the locomotive kits nor the mechanisms, only stating "PRODUCTION NOT YET SCHEDULED." The last 1942 Mantua catalog I have (as clearly stating 1942 on the front cover) has a copyright of 1945 (inside front cover) and in addition to having no prices and noting production is not yet scheduled, there's a notation of "DELIVERY LATE SUMMER." The Berkshire mechanism was never resumed after the War though. I presume Mantua printed catalogs through the War to offer what pre-War stock they had left on hand for the modeler during that period; some of the rolling stock did have prices. I doubt that you'll find much info at all on line about these early manufacturers, except perhaps on such Forums as HO Seekers, etc., which I'll check into next. As I get more free time, I'll read through the back issues of MR for Conover. Yes, I do have a Convover mechanism -- milled solid brass bar stock frame. Found it at a train meet about 30 years ago, and didn't pay more than $10 for it. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray.. >   > The driver info is great to know.. I have a couple belles and they are readily avaliable for use as parts.. >   > although.. I never had a question about this Mantua Mountain Mechanism.. I already knew they were offered as the Mechanism only.. I emailed you the pic of the 1941 catalog page depicting this mechanism earlier ths morning... >   > My question is on the 4-8-4 chassis.. Conover.. I could find no info on-line of the company? >   > Did I read right?? You say you have a mechanisin like this one?? >   > Sean > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: > > From: erieberk <erieberk@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 9:13 AM > > > > > > > Sean, Following up on your Mantua mechanism, all Mantua literature I > have states that both the Mantua Atlantic and the Pacific take 80" > drivers, so these could not be used for your Berkshire mechanism. > Mantua did make 72" drivers though, that they used for the Belle 4- 4- > 0. The part numbers for these drivers (if you can find them), as > found in Mantua's comprehensive H0 Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia > 1926 - 1953, are: > > # 25038 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C" > > # 25043 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C", with No. 6644 > Nylon Worm Gear, 30T, 64 Pitch > > Ray Wetzel > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > >   > > The mntua Mountain is in a folder labeled Mantua Mountain. As for > the rarity of such a piece.. I have already had someone offer me $250 > for it. Obviously I turned him down.. I traded a complete Varney > Super Mikado to get it.. The frame piece that is.. The guy I got it > from had sent me the box with the pacific chassis and I read l the > label and began to shake. I immediately began to bug him for it.. I > went ahead and made him an offer he could not refuse..  Bowser Big > Boy or $100 + a Penn Line T1 kit.. or an engine of his choice of > equal value to the Big boy...  He asked if I had the Varney.. I had > one, so away it went... > >   > > So.. All I have is the box and chassis frame... The drivers are > missing, but pacific drivers should work. however I believe I need > 72" drivers and I have no idea where I might find those... > >   > > I have also attached your pics.. > >   > > Sean > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk@ <erieberk@ .> wrote: > > > > From: erieberk@ <erieberk@ .> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8-4, > and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a few > shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a > nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had this > engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere (maybe > I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us > to identify it. > > > > Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the > best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one > catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an engine.  Hard > to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have them.   Ray > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6656	From: erieberk	Date: 7/17/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Sean, Nope, nothing on Conover in H0-Seeker, but then you may already have tried that. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Sean, Glad you could use the Belle/Driver info. I didn't find the > pic of your 1941 Mantua catalog, although I did see the pics of the > Contents of the box and the Label for the box (haven't looked further > yet). With your mention of that, I pulled those catalogs out of mine > and saw I should have looked at them more closely instead of just > skimming over them. Both of the Mantua 1941 catalogs, the First > Edition and the Second Edition, have the Mechanism on page 30, listed > as "MECHANISM FOR MOUNTAIN TYPE LOCOMOTIVES" with the price of the > Fully Machined assembly Kit at $10.00 and the Assembled (R-T-R) > version at $15.00. So there it is; I guess I had forgotten all about > that piece. > > The 1942 Mantua catalog (First Edition) has this same description on > page 32, but now the assembly Kit is $16.50 and the Assembled Readt > to Run is $22.50. The later 1942 Editions for this same mechanism do > not have any prices listed for any of the locomotive kits nor the > mechanisms, only stating "PRODUCTION NOT YET SCHEDULED." The last > 1942 Mantua catalog I have (as clearly stating 1942 on the front > cover) has a copyright of 1945 (inside front cover) and in addition > to having no prices and noting production is not yet scheduled, > there's a notation of "DELIVERY LATE SUMMER." The Berkshire > mechanism was never resumed after the War though. I presume Mantua > printed catalogs through the War to offer what pre-War stock they had > left on hand for the modeler during that period; some of the rolling > stock did have prices. > > I doubt that you'll find much info at all on line about these early > manufacturers, except perhaps on such Forums as HO Seekers, etc., > which I'll check into next. As I get more free time, I'll read > through the back issues of MR for Conover. Yes, I do have a Convover > mechanism -- milled solid brass bar stock frame. Found it at a train > meet about 30 years ago, and didn't pay more than $10 for it. Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ray.. > >   > > The driver info is great to know.. I have a couple belles and they > are readily avaliable for use as parts.. > >   > > although.. I never had a question about this Mantua > Mountain Mechanism.. I already knew they were offered as the > Mechanism only.. I emailed you the pic of the 1941 catalog page > depicting this mechanism earlier ths morning... > >   > > My question is on the 4-8-4 chassis.. Conover.. I could find no > info on-line of the company? > >   > > Did I read right?? You say you have a mechanisin like this one?? > >   > > Sean > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > From: erieberk <erieberk@> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 9:13 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean, Following up on your Mantua mechanism, all Mantua literature > I > > have states that both the Mantua Atlantic and the Pacific take 80" > > drivers, so these could not be used for your Berkshire mechanism. > > Mantua did make 72" drivers though, that they used for the Belle 4- > 4- > > 0. The part numbers for these drivers (if you can find them), as > > found in Mantua's comprehensive H0 Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia > > 1926 - 1953, are: > > > > # 25038 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C" > > > > # 25043 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C", with No. > 6644 > > Nylon Worm Gear, 30T, 64 Pitch > > > > Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > >   > > > The mntua Mountain is in a folder labeled Mantua Mountain. As for > > the rarity of such a piece.. I have already had someone offer me > $250 > > for it. Obviously I turned him down.. I traded a complete Varney > > Super Mikado to get it.. The frame piece that is.. The guy I got it > > from had sent me the box with the pacific chassis and I read l the > > label and began to shake. I immediately began to bug him for it.. I > > went ahead and made him an offer he could not refuse..  Bowser Big > > Boy or $100 + a Penn Line T1 kit.. or an engine of his choice of > > equal value to the Big boy...  He asked if I had the Varney.. I had > > one, so away it went... > > >   > > > So.. All I have is the box and chassis frame... The drivers are > > missing, but pacific drivers should work. however I believe I need > > 72" drivers and I have no idea where I might find those... > > >   > > > I have also attached your pics.. > > >   > > > Sean > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk@ <erieberk@ .> wrote: > > > > > > From: erieberk@ <erieberk@ .> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8- 4, > > and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a > few > > shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a > > nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had > this > > engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere > (maybe > > I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us > > to identify it. > > > > > > Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the > > best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one > > catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an > engine.  Hard > > to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have > them.   Ray > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6657	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/18/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Good News Ray!   I just discovered last night.. Tha Mantua Pacific Valvegear kit I have.. Has a line drawn through the driver size with 72" written in pencile next to the line. I can only assume at this point is that the two, the gear and the chassis are meant to be together.. makes sence since they came to me from (round-about) the same source.. The guy I got the chassis from had outbid me on the lot and I convinced him to sell it to me afterwards.. I got the valve gear from another lot by the same seller..   Got to start digging through my belles now...   Sean --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk <erieberk@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 9:13 AM Sean, Following up on your Mantua mechanism, all Mantua literature I have states that both the Mantua Atlantic and the Pacific take 80" drivers, so these could not be used for your Berkshire mechanism. Mantua did make 72" drivers though, that they used for the Belle 4-4- 0. The part numbers for these drivers (if you can find them), as found in Mantua's comprehensive H0 Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia 1926 - 1953, are: # 25038 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C" # 25043 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C", with No. 6644 Nylon Worm Gear, 30T, 64 Pitch Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, >   > The mntua Mountain is in a folder labeled Mantua Mountain. As for the rarity of such a piece.. I have already had someone offer me $250 for it. Obviously I turned him down.. I traded a complete Varney Super Mikado to get it.. The frame piece that is.. The guy I got it from had sent me the box with the pacific chassis and I read l the label and began to shake. I immediately began to bug him for it.. I went ahead and made him an offer he could not refuse..  Bowser Big Boy or $100 + a Penn Line T1 kit.. or an engine of his choice of equal value to the Big boy...  He asked if I had the Varney.. I had one, so away it went... >   > So.. All I have is the box and chassis frame... The drivers are missing, but pacific drivers should work. however I believe I need 72" drivers and I have no idea where I might find those... >   > I have also attached your pics.. >   > Sean > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > From: erieberk@... <erieberk@.. .> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:21 AM > > > > > > > Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8-4, and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a few shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had this engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere (maybe I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us to identify it. > > Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an engine.  Hard to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have them.   Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6658	From: erieberk	Date: 7/18/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Sean, That is a bit of good news, if this valve gear fits your chassis, and while I can see the terrific implications of this having to match your frame and drivers, I don't understand the significance of < 72" > being written on a Mantua Pacific valve gear kit since Mantua Pacifics used 80" drivers -- unless this is not for the Pacific, which would be just as well. I sure hope it works out. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Good News Ray! >   > I just discovered last night.. Tha Mantua Pacific Valvegear kit I have.. Has a line drawn through the driver size with 72" written in pencile next to the line. I can only assume at this point is that the two, the gear and the chassis are meant to be together.. makes sence since they came to me from (round-about) the same source.. The guy I got the chassis from had outbid me on the lot and I convinced him to sell it to me afterwards.. I got the valve gear from another lot by the same seller.. >   > Got to start digging through my belles now... >   > Sean > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: > > From: erieberk <erieberk@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 9:13 AM > > > > > > > Sean, Following up on your Mantua mechanism, all Mantua literature I > have states that both the Mantua Atlantic and the Pacific take 80" > drivers, so these could not be used for your Berkshire mechanism. > Mantua did make 72" drivers though, that they used for the Belle 4- 4- > 0. The part numbers for these drivers (if you can find them), as > found in Mantua's comprehensive H0 Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia > 1926 - 1953, are: > > # 25038 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C" > > # 25043 1-pair Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 72" Type "C", with No. 6644 > Nylon Worm Gear, 30T, 64 Pitch > > Ray Wetzel > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > >   > > The mntua Mountain is in a folder labeled Mantua Mountain. As for > the rarity of such a piece.. I have already had someone offer me $250 > for it. Obviously I turned him down.. I traded a complete Varney > Super Mikado to get it.. The frame piece that is.. The guy I got it > from had sent me the box with the pacific chassis and I read l the > label and began to shake. I immediately began to bug him for it.. I > went ahead and made him an offer he could not refuse..  Bowser Big > Boy or $100 + a Penn Line T1 kit.. or an engine of his choice of > equal value to the Big boy...  He asked if I had the Varney.. I had > one, so away it went... > >   > > So.. All I have is the box and chassis frame... The drivers are > missing, but pacific drivers should work. however I believe I need > 72" drivers and I have no idea where I might find those... > >   > > I have also attached your pics.. > >   > > Sean > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, erieberk@ <erieberk@ .> wrote: > > > > From: erieberk@ <erieberk@ .> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 12:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean,  Where did you post 2 pics?  I went to your Mystery 4-8-4, > and I see you added 7 more pics -- all of the 4-8-4, including a few > shots of the boiler (which I wasn't aware you had!).  Now that's a > nice old piece of early H0.  I don't recall your saying you had this > engine complete, unless I must have missed something somewhere (maybe > I did?).  I thought you were just showing us the chassis, asking us > to identify it. > > > > Still, if Mantua made a pre-War Berkshire, it must have been the > best kept secret in the hobby this side of Ives!  There's not one > catalog of Mantua's that even makes mention of such an engine.  Hard > to sell any if you don't tell a single sole you even have them.   Ray > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6659	From: jay matz	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Mantua Made a set of 72 inch drivers for the pacific. That was to make a G-2sb that had 72 inch drivers. I have a set with the gear box. Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6660	From: erieberk	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Jay, Yes, I'm aware that Mantua made a set of 72" drivers, as I mentioned to Sean, and which were used for the Belle of the Eighties. I did not know that Mantua's alternate purpose for bringing out these drivers was to convert their G-2sa to a G-2sb -- unless perhaps this notion was just taken up by hobbyists of that day as a free-lance conversion of their own and not coming as Mantua's recommendation. If this was expressly Mantua's purpose for these drivers, I find this extremely interesting. None of the Mantua literature I have in my library makes mention of the fact these drivers may be used to make a G- 2sb, and I believe I have one of the most complete collections of Mantua catalogs, brochures and books. Even their announcement of these 72" drivers in the 1947 catalog (copyright 1946, Fifth Edition) does not state this purpose, only saying: "NEW! SCALE 72" SPOKED LOCOMOTIVE DRIVE WHEELS" and goes on with describing them, with their prices. I have the 8 1/2" x 11" Mantua 32-page Atlantic/Pacific Construction & Operating Manual book (5/49), with 80" (only) drivers to be used for the Pacific. Likewise, the Mantua 24-page 8 1/2" x 11" H0 Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts Lists book (9/52) makes no mention of using these drivers for that purpose. This manual's only listings for Pacific drivers are : Part Number 25039 - Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 80" * Part Number 15034 - Wheel Only, 80", Non-Insulated * Part Number 15035 - Wheel Only, 80", Insulated * and, Part Number 33425 - Gear Box Unit Assembled with 80" Drivers, specifically as parts listed for the Pacific. The 8 1/2" x 11" 74-page Mantua Cyclopedia ((1953) that I mentioned previously makes no mention for this use of the 72" drivers either, nor does the Mantua 46-page 8 1/2" x 11" Catalog and Handbook of 1948. This is why I wonder if it was an original Mantua purpose to use these drivers for a G-2sb. Would you happen to know, as all reading material I have on Mantua states only the use of the 80" drivers. Of course, all of my Mantua Pacifics have 80" drivers, wouldn't you know! Now I'll have to hunt for the 72" drivers. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote: > > Mantua Made a set of 72 inch drivers for the pacific. > That was to make a G-2sb that had 72 inch drivers. > I have a set with the gear box. > Jay >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6661	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi all, I have been searching for a set of Mantua Belle of the Eighties 72" drivers for years and truthfully, I believe they were made to use only on the Belle.  These drivers have square counterweights which were only used on early small steamers and would look really out of place on a Pacific or other large loco. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: erieberk@... Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:06:05 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! Jay, Yes, I'm aware that Mantua made a set of 72" drivers, as I mentioned to Sean, and which were used for the Belle of the Eighties. I did not know that Mantua's alternate purpose for bringing out these drivers was to convert their G-2sa to a G-2sb -- unless perhaps this notion was just taken up by hobbyists of that day as a free-lance conversion of their own and not coming as Mantua's recommendation. If this was expressly Mantua's purpose for these drivers, I find this extremely interesting. None of the Mantua literature I have in my library makes mention of the fact these drivers may be used to make a G- 2sb, and I believe I have one of the most complete collections of Mantua catalogs, brochures and books. Even their announcement of these 72" drivers in the 1947 catalog (copyright 1946, Fifth Edition) does not state this purpose, only saying: "NEW! SCALE 72" SPOKED LOCOMOTIVE DRIVE WHEELS" and goes on with describing them, with their prices. I have the 8 1/2" x 11" Mantua 32-page Atlantic/Pacific Construction & Operating Manual book (5/49), with 80" (only) drivers to be used for the Pacific. Likewise, the Mantua 24-page 8 1/2" x 11" H0 Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts Lists book (9/52) makes no mention of using these drivers for that purpose. This manual's only listings for Pacific drivers are : Part Number 25039 - Wheels and Axle, Flanged, 80" * Part Number 15034 - Wheel Only, 80", Non-Insulated * Part Number 15035 - Wheel Only, 80", Insulated * and, Part Number 33425 - Gear Box Unit Assembled with 80" Drivers, specifically as parts listed for the Pacific. The 8 1/2" x 11" 74-page Mantua Cyclopedia ((1953) that I mentioned previously makes no mention for this use of the 72" drivers either, nor does the Mantua 46-page 8 1/2" x 11" Catalog and Handbook of 1948. This is why I wonder if it was an original Mantua purpose to use these drivers for a G-2sb. Would you happen to know, as all reading material I have on Mantua states only the use of the 80" drivers. Of course, all of my Mantua Pacifics have 80" drivers, wouldn't you know! Now I'll have to hunt for the 72" drivers. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote: > > Mantua Made a set of 72 inch drivers for the pacific. > That was to make a G-2sb that had 72 inch drivers. > I have a set with the gear box. > Jay > Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6662	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: 72" drivers

Assuming that the bushings or axles would end up at the same location in the frame, would the dropping of the frame the 8” cause a problem?  Coupler height and such.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 8:19 AM To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]RE: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!   Hi all, I have been searching for a set of Mantua Belle of the Eighties 72" drivers for years and truthfully, I believe they were made to use only on the Belle.  These drivers have square counterweights which were only used on early small steamers and would look really out of place on a Pacific or other large loco. Vic Bitleris Raleigh , NC To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com From: erieberk@wmconnect. com Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:06:05 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! Jay, Yes, I'm aware that Mantua made a set of 72" drivers, as I mentioned to Sean, and which were used for the Belle of the Eighties. I did not know that Mantua 's alternate purpose for bringing out these drivers was to convert their G-2sa to a G-2sb -- unless perhaps this notion was just taken up by hobbyists of that day as a free-lance conversion of their own and not coming as Mantua 's recommendation. If this was expressly Mantua 's purpose for these drivers, I find this extremely interesting. None of the Mantua literature I have in my library makes mention of the fact these drivers may be used to make a G- 2sb, and I believe I have one of the most complete collections of Mantua catalogs, brochures and books. Even their announcement of these 72" drivers in the 1947 catalog (copyright 1946, Fifth Edition) does not state this purpose, only saying: "NEW! SCALE 72" SPOKED LOCOMOTIVE DRIVE WHEELS" and goes on with describing them, with their prices.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6663	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi Jay,   Now, do yours look like the Belle drivers or smaller versions of the Pacific drivers? Apparently, there seems to be a difference. I have not looked at either yet and I will do it now.   Sean --- On Sat, 7/19/08, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote: From: jay matz <dlw455@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 5:54 AM Mantua Made a set of 72 inch drivers for the pacific. That was to make a G-2sb that had 72 inch drivers. I have a set with the gear box. Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6664	From: erieberk	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

Hi Sean, Hadn't given the counterweight style any thought, only the needed diameter. I suppose the Belle Drivers would look out of place, with the squared-off counterweights, which would be extremely difficult to modify (very careful filing between the spokes). The introduction of the "New!" scale 72" Spoked Locomotive Drive Wheels illustrated 3 different counterweight styles: "A" - a medium modern, straight across spoke to spoke type, "B" - a heavy earlier slanted end spoke to hub type and "C" the much earlier squared ends type (for the Belle). Not a wide choice since you couldn't choose from light, medium and heavy counterweights, but at least a more modern driver was offered. Like finding a needle in a haystack, though. They were also offered as having "blind" rims, just so you know what to look for (or what not to look for), depending on your track radius. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hi Jay, >   > Now, do yours look like the Belle drivers or smaller versions of the Pacific drivers? Apparently, there seems to be a difference. I have not looked at either yet and I will do it now. >   > Sean > > --- On Sat, 7/19/08, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote: > > From: jay matz <dlw455@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 5:54 AM > > > > > > > > > > > Mantua Made a set of 72 inch drivers for the pacific. > That was to make a G-2sb that had 72 inch drivers. > I have a set with the gear box. > Jay >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6665	From: erieberk	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: 72" drivers

Chuck, You make a good point, even though the frame would drop only 4" (half of the 8" diameter difference). I'm not the best of mathematicians, but I come up with that 4" differance as .0358" in scale (H0), or near 1/32" (but I could be off). Not too much to worry about -- you could probably keep the tender (and its coupler) at the original height (maybe adjust the drawbar a bit), but if you're double-heading with an engine on the point of this you might want to make a minor realignment of the front coupler. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Assuming that the bushings or axles would end up at the same location in the > frame, would the dropping of the frame the 8" cause a problem? Coupler > height and such. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Victor Bitleris > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 8:19 AM > To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]RE: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > > > Hi all, I have been searching for a set of Mantua Belle of the Eighties 72" > drivers for years and truthfully, I believe they were made to use only on > the Belle. These drivers have square counterweights which were only used on > early small steamers and would look really out of place on a Pacific or > other large loco. > > Vic Bitleris > Raleigh, NC > > _____ > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: erieberk@... > Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:06:05 +0000 > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys! > > Jay, Yes, I'm aware that Mantua made a set of 72" drivers, as I > mentioned to Sean, and which were used for the Belle of the Eighties. > I did not know that Mantua's alternate purpose for bringing out these > drivers was to convert their G-2sa to a G-2sb -- unless perhaps this > notion was just taken up by hobbyists of that day as a free-lance > conversion of their own and not coming as Mantua's recommendation. > > If this was expressly Mantua's purpose for these drivers, I find this > extremely interesting. None of the Mantua literature I have in my > library makes mention of the fact these drivers may be used to make a G- > 2sb, and I believe I have one of the most complete collections of > Mantua catalogs, brochures and books. Even their announcement of these > 72" drivers in the 1947 catalog (copyright 1946, Fifth Edition) does > not state this purpose, only saying: "NEW! SCALE 72" SPOKED LOCOMOTIVE > DRIVE WHEELS" and goes on with describing them, with their prices. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6666	From: jay matz	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: Another Mystery engine for you guys!

I need to make a correction It was a G1-sb 200-204 built 1925 rebuilt 1947 scraped in 1953 74 inch drivers but what is two inches. I built 2 of them from from the Mantua pacific. The 72 inch driver with the gearbox would only fit in the Pacific or Atlantic frame ,not the Bille frame. Never gave the counterweights a thought when I built them and when I sold them the buyers never gave them a though either. I rebuilt the pilots so I would have a working coupler,so the height was not a factor. Jay >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6667	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: 72" drivers

Hi Ray, an under set Shank coupler would raise the knuckle .050 so that might be a route for the loco. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:52 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: 72" drivers   Chuck, You make a good point, even though the frame would drop only 4" (half of the 8" diameter difference). I'm not the best of mathematicians, but I come up with that 4" differance as .0358" in scale (H0), or near 1/32" (but I could be off). Not too much to worry about -- you could probably keep the tender (and its coupler) at the original height (maybe adjust the drawbar a bit), but if you're double-heading with an engine on the point of this you might want to make a minor realignment of the front coupler. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6668	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: The Mystery engine has sprung drivers!

My mystery 484 has a sprung chassis.. which was the original topic of this message..    I added a few mor pics of this.. Basic leaf under each driver, which is encased in some sort of cast metal bushing.. Is this manufactured or custom made?    I do find the 72" drivers a grate topic as well.. Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6669	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/19/2008
Subject: Re: The Mystery engine has sprung drivers!

It is much easier to see in the pics since they are close-ups.. It may be a chassis built up from a thick piece of c-chanel.   Sean --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> Subject: [vintageHO] The Mystery engine has sprung drivers! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 3:24 PM My mystery 484 has a sprung chassis.. which was the original topic of this message..    I added a few mor pics of this.. Basic leaf under each driver, which is encased in some sort of cast metal bushing.. Is this manufactured or custom made?    I do find the 72" drivers a grate topic as well.. Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6670	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/20/2008
Subject: Varney celluloid coaches

Attachments : Regular readers may remember I'm building a string of Varney celluloid streamliners for another member. The last batch had an interesting variation. These are the two-tone grey cars, and so far every one has had white striping. In the last batch, there was a coach with silver striping. For the Varney mavens in the group, was this an earlier version, or the last, or a one time experiment? It is NOT the best variation as far as I'm concerned. When you compare the cars side by side, under direct light, they're not that different (first picture), but on the layout, in indirect lighting, the silver virtually disappears, leaving a very drab looking car (2nd. picture). Comments? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6671	From: jbark76	Date: 7/23/2008
Subject: Mantua OO Scale?

I have heard that Mantua made the Belle of the 80s and brass passenger cars for OO scale. If this is true, were the engine and cars any bigger, or are the HO engine and cars oversize? Has anyone seen or heard of their existance? I dabble in some of the older OO, Scalecraft, etc. and plan to have a OO line in the forground of my HO layout. I was considering scaling up the Belle to OO scale. Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6672	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/23/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?

I got some of the passenger cars so labeled several years ago--I'll have to go measure them. Later--any idea where I put them?? they're not where I thought they were--I'll have to save this and look later. I have quite a bit of OO scale and plan eventually to operate it on the On3 layout I have under construction. Can you visualize an NYC Hudson on Cumbres Pass?? or coaling at Chama?? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbark76" <jbark76@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:02 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? >I have heard that Mantua made the Belle of the 80s and brass passenger > cars for OO scale. If this is true, were the engine and cars any > bigger, or are the HO engine and cars oversize? Has anyone seen or > heard of their existance? > > I dabble in some of the older OO, Scalecraft, etc. and plan to have a > OO line in the forground of my HO layout. I was considering scaling up > the Belle to OO scale. > > Thanks, > Jeff > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6673	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/23/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?

thinking more about it--the OO Mantua cars just had wider trucks. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbark76" <jbark76@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:02 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? >I have heard that Mantua made the Belle of the 80s and brass passenger > cars for OO scale. If this is true, were the engine and cars any > bigger, or are the HO engine and cars oversize? Has anyone seen or > heard of their existance? > > I dabble in some of the older OO, Scalecraft, etc. and plan to have a > OO line in the forground of my HO layout. I was considering scaling up > the Belle to OO scale. > > Thanks, > Jeff > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6674	From: cnj999	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?

When I researched and then wrote an article for RMC, about 20 years ago (RMC July 1990), regarding Mantua's early Master Model Builders series of locomotives, the following paragraph was included. "Not widely known and thus worth mentioning here is the fact that the Mogul, Belle and its associated coaches, were used by Mantua in its venture into OO scale. With re-gauged wheel separation but otherwise unchanged, these items were offered as part of Mantua's OO line just before the war." Remember, back then Lionel had recently introduced its OO truly scale Hudson and in the pages of MR you really saw there was a battle going on as to whether HO or OO would become the Hobby's dominant "small" scale. Perhaps also worthy of note is that Mantua's post-war ten-wheeler and Dixie Belle were also cross-scale breeds, done essentially to Sn3 scale but I've never been able to ascertain positively whether this was by intent, or simply because of available motor-size. Which ever the case, these two locomotives are grossly over-sized for HO but today widely used amongst Sn3 modelers. CNJ999

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6675	From: John Hagen	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?

I remember reading a MR review (Trade Topics back then) of a ten wheeler recently introduced by Mantua. It may well have been an updated (i.e., plastic) Belle. I would guess this to be in the 70's but can't be sure of that. Anyway, in MR's words "As ten wheelers go, this is a big one". Probably more suited to Sn3 as stated. Hmmm, I'll bet with an enlarged cab, it would work for On30. Maybe I'm gonna have to hit some swap meets this fall. John Hagen St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "cnj999" <jbortle@...> wrote: > > When I researched and then wrote an article for RMC, about 20 years > ago (RMC July 1990), regarding Mantua's early Master Model Builders > series of locomotives, the following paragraph was included. > > "Not widely known and thus worth mentioning here is the fact that the > Mogul, Belle and its associated coaches, were used by Mantua in its > venture into OO scale. With re-gauged wheel separation but otherwise > unchanged, these items were offered as part of Mantua's OO line just > before the war." > > Remember, back then Lionel had recently introduced its OO truly scale > Hudson and in the pages of MR you really saw there was a battle going > on as to whether HO or OO would become the Hobby's dominant "small" > scale. > > Perhaps also worthy of note is that Mantua's post-war ten-wheeler and > Dixie Belle were also cross-scale breeds, done essentially to Sn3 > scale but I've never been able to ascertain positively whether this > was by intent, or simply because of available motor-size. Which ever > the case, these two locomotives are grossly over-sized for HO but > today widely used amongst Sn3 modelers. > > CNJ999 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6676	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 10:08 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua OO Scale? >I remember reading a MR review (Trade Topics back then) of a ten > wheeler recently introduced by Mantua. It may well have been an > updated (i.e., plastic) Belle. I would guess this to be in the 70's > but can't be sure of that. Anyway, in MR's words "As ten wheelers go, > this is a big one". Probably more suited to Sn3 as stated. Hmmm, I'll > bet with an enlarged cab, it would work for On30. Maybe I'm gonna > have to hit some swap meets this fall. > > John Hagen > St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI > The Mantua "Dixie Belle" in the 1970's was the Sierra RR prototype, the first issues cashed in on the popularity of the "petticoat Junction" TV show, and were even lettered for the "C&FW" railroad, from the show. I don't know as it was particularly oversized or not. There WAS a brass 2-6-0 heavily imported in the 60's by Ken Kidder that definitely WAS Sn3. (or more accurately, an S scale model to Japanese "meter" gauge, apparently a popular scale in Japan.) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6677	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale?

I always thought NYC 0-8-8-0 Hump Engine would look too cool on a Cumbres Pass type lay-out. NYC FOREVER CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? > Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:41:03 -0700 > > > I got some of the passenger cars so labeled several years ago--I'll have to > go measure them. > > Later--any idea where I put them?? they're not where I thought they > were--I'll have to save this and look later. > > I have quite a bit of OO scale and plan eventually to operate it on the On3 > layout I have under construction. Can you visualize an NYC Hudson on > Cumbres Pass?? or coaling at Chama?? > > gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jbark76" <jbark76@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:02 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? > > > > I have heard that Mantua made the Belle of the 80s and brass passenger > > cars for OO scale. If this is true, were the engine and cars any > > bigger, or are the HO engine and cars oversize? Has anyone seen or > > heard of their existance? > > > > I dabble in some of the older OO, Scalecraft, etc. and plan to have a > > OO line in the forground of my HO layout. I was considering scaling up > > the Belle to OO scale. > > > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6678	From: Tertius Coetzee	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

----- Original Message ----- From: Tertius Coetzee To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS Greetings fellow collectors,   A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as Wood Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these kits and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what are they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006.   I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these items.   Kind regards     Tertius Coetzee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6679	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale?

perhaps--but I HAVE the Hudsons on hand. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? >I always thought NYC 0-8-8-0 Hump Engine would look too cool on a Cumbres >Pass type lay-out. > NYC FOREVER > CAW >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? >> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:41:03 -0700 >> >> >> I got some of the passenger cars so labeled several years ago--I'll have >> to >> go measure them. >> >> Later--any idea where I put them?? they're not where I thought they >> were--I'll have to save this and look later. >> >> I have quite a bit of OO scale and plan eventually to operate it on the >> On3 >> layout I have under construction. Can you visualize an NYC Hudson on >> Cumbres Pass?? or coaling at Chama?? >> >> gj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "jbark76" <jbark76@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:02 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? >> >> >> > I have heard that Mantua made the Belle of the 80s and brass passenger >> > cars for OO scale. If this is true, were the engine and cars any >> > bigger, or are the HO engine and cars oversize? Has anyone seen or >> > heard of their existance? >> > >> > I dabble in some of the older OO, Scalecraft, etc. and plan to have a >> > OO line in the forground of my HO layout. I was considering scaling up >> > the Belle to OO scale. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Jeff >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6680	From: jbark76	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?

Thanks for all the input. I'll go ahead with the someday plan of widening the trucks for OO scale.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6681	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Mainline was a line of very high quality kits, sold in the 1950's and 1960's. The last listing of them in the Walthers catalog I can find is around 1970 or so, but they may have lasted longer. They made both HO and O scale kits. Here in the US, you can still find unbuilt kits in the $10 to $ 20 range. I have a couple of the 36' stock cars completed, pics in my "Miscellaneous" album on the group home page. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=12 http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=4 The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled out, but the individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so you glued all the bracing on, then cut off the ends. This left the sides of individual slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal support, the only support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the prototype. You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's surprisingly strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS ----- Original Message ----- From: Tertius Coetzee To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS Greetings fellow collectors, A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as Wood Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these kits and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what are they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these items. Kind regards Tertius Coetzee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6682	From: John Barlow	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

The line included the first wooden PRR N6B caboose (cabin) kits. The line, as is today, was bought and is produced under the name "Ye Olde Huff N' Puff". I do not if their website is still up.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)     --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 4:50 PM Mainline was a line of very high quality kits, sold in the 1950's and 1960's. The last listing of them in the Walthers catalog I can find is around 1970 or so, but they may have lasted longer. They made both HO and O scale kits. Here in the US, you can still find unbuilt kits in the $10 to $ 20 range. I have a couple of the 36' stock cars completed, pics in my "Miscellaneous" album on the group home page. http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/view/ b075?b=12 http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/view/ b075?b=4 The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled out, but the individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so you glued all the bracing on, then cut off the ends. This left the sides of individual slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal support, the only support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the prototype. You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's surprisingly strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@telkomsa. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS ----- Original Message ----- From: Tertius Coetzee To: TrainColSoc@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS Greetings fellow collectors, A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as Wood Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these kits and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what are they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these items. Kind regards Tertius Coetzee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6683	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/24/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Main Line did have fairly nice kits, but I had a bad experience with them. I ordered and paid for a batch of stock cars--ML kept delaying shipment--then I got thru to them and was told that the line had been sold, but that they were not honoring previous orders. This was in 1970's and I haven't bought any of their kits since. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > Mainline was a line of very high quality kits, sold in the 1950's and > 1960's. The last listing of them in the Walthers catalog I can find is > around 1970 or so, but they may have lasted longer. They made both HO and > O > scale kits. Here in the US, you can still find unbuilt kits in the $10 to > $ > 20 range. > > I have a couple of the 36' stock cars completed, pics in my > "Miscellaneous" > album on the group home page. > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=12 > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=4 > > The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled out, but the > individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so you glued all > the bracing on, then cut off the ends. This left the sides of individual > slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal support, the only > support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the > prototype. > You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's surprisingly > strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:37 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tertius Coetzee > To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM > Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > Greetings fellow collectors, > > A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our > gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain > white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as > Wood > Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The > contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most > delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and > the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these > kits > and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these > kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what > are > they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the > National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. > > I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these > items. > > Kind regards > > > Tertius Coetzee > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6684	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua OO Scale?

Don, Having been stationed in Japan on one tour I wanted to note that Japanese railroads were built to the British "Cape Gauge" of 3'-6" -- and the Porter Mogul that was imported was actually a model of the Benkei -- one of the first locomotives in Japan. It was preserved and still exists. The Kidder import was actually to 1:80 or 1:76 and gives some of the feel of the narrow gauge loco but still worked with HO scale. The Japanese builder was apparently making these for the home market when Ken Kidder met with him and he arranged to bring some in. The rest, as they say, is history. A number of kits of it have been made available over the years but the one we probably all remember was from Don Reschenberg's series in the old Model Trains/Model Railroader on building the Portage Hill and Communipaw RR. He did an interesting side article in '61 or '62 on various conversions of the Kidder Porter Mogul. That was one of my inspirational articles for "brass bashing" and detailing that led me into collecting HO in my later years. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 10:08 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua OO Scale? > > > >I remember reading a MR review (Trade Topics back then) of a ten > > wheeler recently introduced by Mantua. It may well have been an > > updated (i.e., plastic) Belle. I would guess this to be in the 70's > > but can't be sure of that. Anyway, in MR's words "As ten wheelers go, > > this is a big one". Probably more suited to Sn3 as stated. Hmmm, I'll > > bet with an enlarged cab, it would work for On30. Maybe I'm gonna > > have to hit some swap meets this fall. > > > > John Hagen > > St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI > > > The Mantua "Dixie Belle" in the 1970's was the Sierra RR prototype, the > first issues cashed in on the popularity of the "petticoat Junction" TV > show, and were even lettered for the "C&FW" railroad, from the show. I > don't know as it was particularly oversized or not. > > There WAS a brass 2-6-0 heavily imported in the 60's by Ken Kidder that > definitely WAS Sn3. (or more accurately, an S scale model to Japanese > "meter" gauge, apparently a popular scale in Japan.) > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6685	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Mantua 00 Scale?

Don Dellmann advised: >The Mantua "Dixie Belle" in the 1970's was the Sierra RR prototype, the >first issues cashed in on the popularity of the "petticoat Junction" TV >show, and were even lettered for the "C&FW" railroad, from the show. I >don't know as it was particularly oversized or not. > >There WAS a brass 2-6-0 heavily imported in the 60's by Ken Kidder that >definitely WAS Sn3. (or more accurately, an S scale model to Japanese >"meter" gauge, apparently a popular scale in Japan.) Back in the 60s, Kawai Models in Tokyo manufactured several generic US old time prototypes such as 2-6-0s, 4-6-0s, and 2-8-0s. While I no longer have any, I recall noting they seemed slightly oversize and were approximately 1:76 which was a ratio, in general use by the Japanese model industry regarding Japanese prototypes. One of these locos had the motor in the tender coupled via a universal to the locomotive drivers. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6686	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

I have a 1957 "Catalog of Model Railroads" that shows a list of products and some pictures of same. They made 14 different billboard reefers, 14 express reefers, several cattle cars, several chicken cars, 4 box cars, and a Pennsy N6B caboose. Prices were 2.95 for any of them. The express reefers had the expected passenger style trucks. The 1991 edition of the same catalog no longer lists anything for main line products. If your enthusiast friend would like a copy of the catalog page I will need an address. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tertius Coetzee > To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM > Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > Greetings fellow collectors, > > A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as Wood Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these kits and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what are they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. > > I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these items. > > Kind regards > > > Tertius Coetzee >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6687	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Hi Done, I am not a big fan of Mainline Models, I bought one of their kits in the early 1970's, a Grand Trunk outside braced Boxcar with prepainted and preprinted sides.  The printing was there for the braces as well.  While it fun (back then) to assemble, the printing on the sides was out of register and truthfully without repainting and decaling, it wouldn't look very good at all.  It will become a yard office/storage facility soon.  The Ye Old Huff and Puff are almost as bad, because whatever they use to put the lettering on rubs off very easily while working with the model. However, my post is not really to bash these guys.  I really do like your MKT stock car and I always felt that Main Line models did a bit of research for their models and tried to make them fairly close to prototype.  I was wondering if you have any insight as to whether the MKT Stock car is really MKT prototype or do you think it is just a generic stock car with MKT lettering? Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: don.dellmann@... Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:50:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS Mainline was a line of very high quality kits, sold in the 1950's and 1960's. The last listing of them in the Walthers catalog I can find is around 1970 or so, but they may have lasted longer. They made both HO and O scale kits. Here in the US, you can still find unbuilt kits in the $10 to $ 20 range. I have a couple of the 36' stock cars completed, pics in my "Miscellaneous" album on the group home page. http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/view/ b075?b=12 http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/view/ b075?b=4 The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled out, but the individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so you glued all the bracing on, then cut off the ends. This left the sides of individual slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal support, the only support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the prototype. You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's surprisingly strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@telkomsa. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS ----- Original Message ----- From: Tertius Coetzee To: TrainColSoc@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS Greetings fellow collectors, A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as Wood Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these kits and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what are they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these items. Kind regards Tertius Coetzee Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6688	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Don One of the very first kits I built in the early fifties was an Ambroid 40' stockcar,(before they started the 1 in 1000 series) that used the same construction technique you described. The side slats were spaced by the overlength ends of the wood which was cut off after the bracing was added. Were these early Ambroid kits the forerunner of the Main Line models? I still have this car running on my layout today. It is one of my favorites, I suppose because it was one of my first. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled out, but the > individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so you glued all > the bracing on, then cut off the ends. This left the sides of individual > slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal support, the only > support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the prototype. > You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's surprisingly > strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6689	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

In addition to the freight cars, Main Line made a great HO wooden PRR N6B caboose with cast metal cupola walls, steps, ladders, and other small fittings.  It’s great fun to build this car, and with a few additional details and a bit of careful work, the finished model comes close to the level of its Quality Craft/Gloor Craft counterparts.                                                                                                                                         Lou Greiff On 7/25/08 2:31 AM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:   Main Line did have fairly nice kits, but I had a bad experience with them. I ordered and paid for a batch of stock cars--ML kept delaying shipment--then I got thru to them and was told that the line had been sold, but that they were not honoring previous orders. This was in 1970's and I haven't bought any of their kits since.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > Mainline was a line of very high quality kits, sold in the 1950's and > 1960's.  The last listing of them in the Walthers catalog I can find is > around 1970 or so, but they may have lasted longer.  They made both HO and > O > scale kits.  Here in the US, you can still find unbuilt kits in the $10 to > $ > 20 range. > > I have a couple of the 36' stock cars completed, pics in my > "Miscellaneous" > album on the group home page. > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=12 > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=4 > > The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled out, but the > individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so you glued all > the bracing on, then cut off the ends.  This left the sides of individual > slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal support, the only > support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the > prototype. > You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's surprisingly > strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@... <mailto:ctj%40telkomsa.net> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:37 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tertius Coetzee > To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TrainColSoc%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM > Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > Greetings fellow collectors, > > A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our > gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain > white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as > Wood > Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The > contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most > delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and > the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these > kits > and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these > kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what > are > they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the > National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. > > I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these > items. > > Kind regards > > > Tertius Coetzee > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6690	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

way back when... My one and only foray into building a wooden kit was an N6B caboose. I'm not sure if it was a Main Line offering or not. Does anyone know who, besides Main Line, offered the N6B in kit form. About the only thing I remember is that it took me forever to construct the kit I used. The result was ok but it cured me of ever attempting to build any wooden kit after that. Another factor was the relative inexpense of the many plastic kits available although I don't recall any plastic N6B offered at that time. Not long after I finished my kit the caboose had a nasty run in with my then 4 year old brother. Wasn't happy after all that work. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > In addition to the freight cars, Main Line made a great HO wooden PRR N6B > caboose with cast metal cupola walls, steps, ladders, and other small > fittings. It¹s great fun to build this car, and with a few additional > details and a bit of careful work, the finished model comes close to the > level of its Quality Craft/Gloor Craft counterparts. > > > Lou Greiff > > > On 7/25/08 2:31 AM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Main Line did have fairly nice kits, but I had a bad experience with them. > > I ordered and paid for a batch of stock cars--ML kept delaying > > shipment--then I got thru to them and was told that the line had been sold, > > but that they were not honoring previous orders. This was in 1970's and I > > haven't bought any of their kits since. gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@... > > <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > >> > Mainline was a line of very high quality kits, sold in the 1950's and > >> > 1960's. The last listing of them in the Walthers catalog I can find is > >> > around 1970 or so, but they may have lasted longer. They made both HO and > >> > O > >> > scale kits. Here in the US, you can still find unbuilt kits in the $10 to > >> > $ > >> > 20 range. > >> > > >> > I have a couple of the 36' stock cars completed, pics in my > >> > "Miscellaneous" > >> > album on the group home page. > >> > > >> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=12 > >> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=4 > >> > > >> > The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled out, but the > >> > individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so you glued all > >> > the bracing on, then cut off the ends. This left the sides of individual > >> > slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal support, the only > >> > support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the > >> > prototype. > >> > You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's surprisingly > >> > strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. > >> > > >> > Don > >> > > >> > Don Dellmann > >> > don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > >> > Owner > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@... <mailto:ctj%40telkomsa.net> > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:37 PM > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Tertius Coetzee > >> > To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TrainColSoc%40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM > >> > Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > >> > > >> > > >> > Greetings fellow collectors, > >> > > >> > A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our > >> > gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain > >> > white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as > >> > Wood > >> > Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The > >> > contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most > >> > delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and > >> > the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these > >> > kits > >> > and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these > >> > kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what > >> > are > >> > they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the > >> > National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. > >> > > >> > I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these > >> > items. > >> > > >> > Kind regards > >> > > >> > > >> > Tertius Coetzee > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6691	From: jay matz	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Joe Quality Craft K-316 N6b and K-317 N6a Gloor Craft K-301 N6b these were wood kits. Jay --

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6692	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Well, Quality Craft and then Gloor Craft also produced the N6B in wood, but not as far back as the 1950s.  If you built your caboose back then, it was most likely Main Line.  Here’s another way to tell the difference.  The Quality/Gloor Craft cars came entirely unpainted.  The Main Line car came with pre-painted and lettered car sides and ends (there were at least two different car numbers).  Also, the car ends were lettered PRR with no car number.  The Main Line lettering wasn’t of the sharpest quality, but it was easy to paint over and replace with decals.                                                                                                                                                         Lou Greiff On 7/25/08 11:24 AM, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:   way back when... My one and only foray into building a wooden kit was an N6B caboose.  I'm not sure if it was a Main Line offering or not.  Does anyone know who, besides Main Line, offered the N6B in kit form. About the only thing I remember is that it took me forever to construct the kit I used.  The result was ok but it cured me of ever attempting to build any wooden kit after that.  Another factor was the relative inexpense of the many plastic kits available although I don't recall any plastic N6B offered at that time.  Not long after I finished my kit the caboose had a nasty run in with my then 4 year old brother. Wasn't happy after all that work. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > In addition to the freight cars, Main Line made a great HO wooden PRR N6B > caboose with cast metal cupola walls, steps, ladders, and other small > fittings.  It’s great fun to build this car, and with a few additional > details and a bit of careful work, the finished model comes close to the > level of its Quality Craft/Gloor Craft counterparts. > >                     > Lou Greiff > > > On 7/25/08 2:31 AM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > >   > >   > > > > Main Line did have fairly nice kits, but I had a bad experience with them. > > I ordered and paid for a batch of stock cars--ML kept delaying > > shipment--then I got thru to them and was told that the line had been sold, > > but that they were not honoring previous orders. This was in 1970's and I > > haven't bought any of their kits since.   gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@... > > <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>  <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > >> > Mainline was a line of very high quality kits, sold in the 1950's and > >> > 1960's.  The last listing of them in the Walthers catalog I can find is > >> > around 1970 or so, but they may have lasted longer.  They made both HO and > >> > O > >> > scale kits.  Here in the US, you can still find unbuilt kits in the $10 to > >> > $ > >> > 20 range. > >> > > >> > I have a couple of the 36' stock cars completed, pics in my > >> > "Miscellaneous" > >> > album on the group home page. > >> > > >> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=12 > >> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=4 > >> > > >> > The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled out, but the > >> > individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so you glued all > >> > the bracing on, then cut off the ends.  This left the sides of individual > >> > slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal support, the only > >> > support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the > >> > prototype. > >> > You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's surprisingly > >> > strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. > >> > > >> > Don > >> > > >> > Don Dellmann > >> > don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > >> > Owner > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@... <mailto:ctj%40telkomsa.net> > > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:37 PM > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Tertius Coetzee > >> > To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TrainColSoc%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:TrainColSoc%40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM > >> > Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > >> > > >> > > >> > Greetings fellow collectors, > >> > > >> > A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our > >> > gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain > >> > white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as > >> > Wood > >> > Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The > >> > contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most > >> > delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and > >> > the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these > >> > kits > >> > and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these > >> > kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what > >> > are > >> > they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the > >> > National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. > >> > > >> > I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these > >> > items. > >> > > >> > Kind regards > >> > > >> > > >> > Tertius Coetzee > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > >   > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6693	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Thank you Jay. Mine couldn't have been the ones you mentioned because the store I worked in didn't care either of those brands. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote: > > Joe > Quality Craft K-316 N6b and K-317 N6a > Gloor Craft K-301 N6b > these were wood kits. > Jay > > -- >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6694	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

I had forgotten about those painted sides - it did have them. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: > > Well, Quality Craft and then Gloor Craft also produced the N6B in wood, but > not as far back as the 1950s. If you built your caboose back then, it was > most likely Main Line. Here¹s another way to tell the difference. The > Quality/Gloor Craft cars came entirely unpainted. The Main Line car came > with pre-painted and lettered car sides and ends (there were at least two > different car numbers). Also, the car ends were lettered PRR with no car > number. The Main Line lettering wasn¹t of the sharpest quality, but it was > easy to paint over and replace with decals. > > > Lou Greiff > > > On 7/25/08 11:24 AM, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > way back when... My one and only foray into building > > a wooden kit was an N6B caboose. I'm not sure if it > > was a Main Line offering or not. Does anyone know > > who, besides Main Line, offered the N6B in kit form. > > > > About the only thing I remember is that it took me > > forever to construct the kit I used. The result was > > ok but it cured me of ever attempting to build any > > wooden kit after that. Another factor was the > > relative inexpense of the many plastic kits available > > although I don't recall any plastic N6B offered at that > > time. Not long after I finished my kit the caboose > > had a nasty run in with my then 4 year old brother. > > Wasn't happy after all that work. > > Joe O'Loughlin > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , Louis > > Greiff <louie113@> wrote: > >> > > >> > In addition to the freight cars, Main Line made a great HO wooden > > PRR N6B > >> > caboose with cast metal cupola walls, steps, ladders, and other small > >> > fittings. It¹s great fun to build this car, and with a few additional > >> > details and a bit of careful work, the finished model comes close to the > >> > level of its Quality Craft/Gloor Craft counterparts. > >> > > >> > > >> > Lou Greiff > >> > > >> > > >> > On 7/25/08 2:31 AM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Main Line did have fairly nice kits, but I had a bad experience > > with them. > >>> > > I ordered and paid for a batch of stock cars--ML kept delaying > >>> > > shipment--then I got thru to them and was told that the line had > > been sold, > >>> > > but that they were not honoring previous orders. This was in > > 1970's and I > >>> > > haven't bought any of their kits since. gj > >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>> > > From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ > >>> > > <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > > >>> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > >>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>> > > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:50 PM > >>> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > >>> > > > >>>>> > >> > Mainline was a line of very high quality kits, sold in the > > 1950's and > >>>>> > >> > 1960's. The last listing of them in the Walthers catalog I can > > find is > >>>>> > >> > around 1970 or so, but they may have lasted longer. They made > > both HO and > >>>>> > >> > O > >>>>> > >> > scale kits. Here in the US, you can still find unbuilt kits in > > the $10 to > >>>>> > >> > $ > >>>>> > >> > 20 range. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > I have a couple of the 36' stock cars completed, pics in my > >>>>> > >> > "Miscellaneous" > >>>>> > >> > album on the group home page. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=12 > >>>>> > >> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=4 > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled > > out, but the > >>>>> > >> > individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so > > you glued all > >>>>> > >> > the bracing on, then cut off the ends. This left the sides of > > individual > >>>>> > >> > slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal > > support, the only > >>>>> > >> > support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the > >>>>> > >> > prototype. > >>>>> > >> > You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's > > surprisingly > >>>>> > >> > strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Don > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Don Dellmann > >>>>> > >> > don.dellmann@ <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> > >>>>> > >> > Owner > >>>>> > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > >>>>> > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > >> > From: "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@ <mailto:ctj%40telkomsa.net> > > >>>>> > >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > > >>>>> > >> > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:37 PM > >>>>> > >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > >> > From: Tertius Coetzee > >>>>> > >> > To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com > >>>>> <mailto:TrainColSoc%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:TrainColSoc%40yahoogroups.com> > >>>>> > >> > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM > >>>>> > >> > Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Greetings fellow collectors, > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card > > boxes at our > >>>>> > >> > gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line > > Models on plain > >>>>> > >> > white paper on one end. The label on each box described the > > contents as > >>>>> > >> > Wood > >>>>> > >> > Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft > > Stock Car. The > >>>>> > >> > contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the > > most > >>>>> > >> > delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as > > Beech and > >>>>> > >> > the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more > > about these > >>>>> > >> > kits > >>>>> > >> > and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : > > Are these > >>>>> > >> > kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare > > and what > >>>>> > >> > are > >>>>> > >> > they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop > > table at the > >>>>> > >> > National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa > > in 2006. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on > > these > >>>>> > >> > items. > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Kind regards > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Tertius Coetzee > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > ------------------------------------ > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6695	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn

Has anyone ever seen this? A Wells fargo Stage Coach by Athearn.. It is larger than HO, maybe S or O.. I am not sure.. Any ideas? I will post pics in a "Wells Fargo" folder in a minute. Thanks, Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6696	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn

Greenberg’s Guide to Athearn lists a Stage Coach and Medicine Wagon on page 147, but the only picture is of the Medicine Wagon box.  Greenberg’s dates both products as early 1960s.                                                                                                                                     Lou On 7/25/08 12:18 PM, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:   Has anyone ever seen this? A Wells fargo Stage Coach by Athearn.. It is larger than HO, maybe S or O.. I am not sure.. Any ideas? I will post pics in a "Wells Fargo" folder in a minute. Thanks,   Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6697	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn

Gee, I have(or had) one of those.   It's "O" Scale.   I think I stashed it in with my circus model stuff years ago.   Question, "stashed where?"   LOL   Thanks for the memories, everyone!   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) --- On Fri, 7/25/08, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 12:18 PM Has anyone ever seen this? A Wells fargo Stage Coach by Athearn.. It is larger than HO, maybe S or O.. I am not sure.. Any ideas? I will post pics in a "Wells Fargo" folder in a minute. Thanks, Sean ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6698	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > Don > > One of the very first kits I built in the early fifties was an > Ambroid 40' stockcar,(before they started the 1 in 1000 series) that > used the same construction technique you described. The side slats > were spaced by the overlength ends of the wood which was cut off > after the bracing was added. Were these early Ambroid kits the > forerunner of the Main Line models? > > I still have this car running on my layout today. It is one of my > favorites, I suppose because it was one of my first. > > Bill DeFoe That I can't answer, I didn't know the Ambroid kit was made that way. I have somewhere a Model Railroader "Trade Topics" review of the Mainline car ca. 1960-61 where they (MR's reviewer) seemed to think this was a new unique way of making the slatted sides. I can't say my first wood kit was a Mainline (it was an Ulrich wood double sheathed boxcar), but about my third or fourth was one of the 50' 1 1/2 door single sheathed auto cars. A bit daunting for a 12 year old, but I did it. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6699	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

I'm sure it was relatively "generic" since they offered it in about 20 different road names. The only differences were the placement of the letterboards. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Bitleris" <bitlerisvj@...> To: <vintageho@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS Hi Done, I am not a big fan of Mainline Models, I bought one of their kits in the early 1970's, a Grand Trunk outside braced Boxcar with prepainted and preprinted sides. The printing was there for the braces as well. While it fun (back then) to assemble, the printing on the sides was out of register and truthfully without repainting and decaling, it wouldn't look very good at all. It will become a yard office/storage facility soon. The Ye Old Huff and Puff are almost as bad, because whatever they use to put the lettering on rubs off very easily while working with the model. However, my post is not really to bash these guys. I really do like your MKT stock car and I always felt that Main Line models did a bit of research for their models and tried to make them fairly close to prototype. I was wondering if you have any insight as to whether the MKT Stock car is really MKT prototype or do you think it is just a generic stock car with MKT lettering? Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: don.dellmann@... Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:50:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS Mainline was a line of very high quality kits, sold in the 1950's and 1960's. The last listing of them in the Walthers catalog I can find is around 1970 or so, but they may have lasted longer. They made both HO and O scale kits. Here in the US, you can still find unbuilt kits in the $10 to $ 20 range. I have a couple of the 36' stock cars completed, pics in my "Miscellaneous" album on the group home page. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=12 http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/b075?b=4 The stock cars were interesting because the sides were milled out, but the individual slats were connected only at the extreme ends, so you glued all the bracing on, then cut off the ends. This left the sides of individual slats, properly spaced, but because there is no internal support, the only support holding the car together is the braces, just like on the prototype. You'd think it would make for a very delicate model, but it's surprisingly strong, although I wouldn't want to drop a locomotive on one. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS ----- Original Message ----- From: Tertius Coetzee To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS Greetings fellow collectors, A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at our gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models on plain white paper on one end. The label on each box described the contents as Wood Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer and 36ft Stock Car. The contents of these kits are made up of precut wood which has the most delightful smell. A builder in our midst identified the wood as Beech and the finer bits as Balsa. The enthusiast wants to know more about these kits and I promised to ask the this group. The basic questions are : Are these kits known? When were they produced and of course are they rare and what are they worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these items. Kind regards Tertius Coetzee _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger2_072008

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6700	From: Wobbly913	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn

Athearn also made a "Ranch Wagon", I have an unbuilt kit for one.   Wobbly913 --- On Fri, 7/25/08, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: From: Louis Greiff <louie113@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wells Fargo Stage Coach by Athearn To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 9:54 AM Greenberg’s Guide to Athearn lists a Stage Coach and Medicine Wagon on page 147, but the only picture is of the Medicine Wagon box.  Greenberg’s dates both products as early 1960s.                                                                                                                                     Lou On 7/25/08 12:18 PM, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:   Has anyone ever seen this? A Wells fargo Stage Coach by Athearn.. It is larger than HO, maybe S or O.. I am not sure.. Any ideas? I will post pics in a "Wells Fargo" folder in a minute. Thanks,   Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6701	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale?

Glenn I have only seen pics of the Engine and someone made a Brass one sometime in the '80s I think, I got several Hudsons(like I say NYC is My Thang) always looking for something else4 intresting in NYC. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:00:38 -0700 > > > perhaps--but I HAVE the Hudsons on hand. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:29 PM > Subject: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? > > > > I always thought NYC 0-8-8-0 Hump Engine would look too cool on > > a Cumbres Pass type lay-out. > > NYC FOREVER > > CAW > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? > >> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:41:03 -0700 > >> > >> > >> I got some of the passenger cars so labeled several years ago--I'll have to > >> go measure them. > >> > >> Later--any idea where I put them?? they're not where I thought they > >> were--I'll have to save this and look later. > >> > >> I have quite a bit of OO scale and plan eventually to operate it on the On3 > >> layout I have under construction. Can you visualize an NYC Hudson on > >> Cumbres Pass?? or coaling at Chama?? > >> > >> gj > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "jbark76" <jbark76@...> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:02 AM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale? > >> > >> > >> > I have heard that Mantua made the Belle of the 80s and brass passenger > >> > cars for OO scale. If this is true, were the engine and cars any > >> > bigger, or are the HO engine and cars oversize? Has anyone seen or > >> > heard of their existance? > >> > > >> > I dabble in some of the older OO, Scalecraft, etc. and plan to have a > >> > OO line in the forground of my HO layout. I was considering scaling up > >> > the Belle to OO scale. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Jeff > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! > > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6702	From: erieberk	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Hi Joe, These early "generic" catalogs, such as your "Catalog of Model Railroads," and "Model Railroad Equipment Corporation, etc., carrying a broad selection of H0 equipment are quite informative in telling us what was made back then. However, some of them did not carry the complete line of some manufacturers, and so, did not list that manufacturers whole line. It appears this is the case with "Catalog of Model Railroads" and Main Line, as this manufacturer produced much more than you describe. Then too, it may be possible that Main Line's complete line was not yet completely established at this date (1957) in time. A more complete (and then I may be missing some) listing of Main Line kits is: 25 40' Billboard Reefers, 20 40' Road Name Reefers, 13 36' Billboard Reefers, 17 Express Reefers, 26 Cattle Cars, 4 Poultry Cars, 28 42' Wood-Sheathed Box Cars, 4 37' Wood-Sheathed Box Cars, 6 40' Outside Baced Box Cars, 11 50' Auto Cars, 17 Twin Hoppers and 1 51" Special Box Car. As you can see, they had an extensive line of kits. Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff took the line over in the 1980's but never carried a near as complete line of kits as was originally offered. A personal letter I received from Shirley Koontz (Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff was owned by Dick & Shirley Koontz) in reply to my letter, dated March 16, 1987 stated . . . "The only H0 cars we are producing that were in old Mainline Models line are the 50" express reefers, see price list, (#78, 79, 80, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90) and the 36" flat cars (#121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128 & 129). Plus H0n3 flat & gondola. Also the poultry car #391." She mentions the possibility of bringing out some other Main Line kits, such as stock and O/B box cars, but I don't know if they ever did. I didn't follow Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff on these as I already had about 85% to 90% of what Main Line produced. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > I have a 1957 "Catalog of Model Railroads" that shows > a list of products and some pictures of same. They > made 14 different billboard reefers, 14 express reefers, > several cattle cars, several chicken cars, 4 box cars, > and a Pennsy N6B caboose. Prices were 2.95 for any > of them. The express reefers had the expected passenger > style trucks. > > The 1991 edition of the same catalog no longer lists > anything for main line products. > > If your enthusiast friend would like a copy of the catalog > page I will need an address. > > Joe O'Loughlin > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tertius Coetzee" <ctj@> wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tertius Coetzee > > To: TrainColSoc@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:55 PM > > Subject: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > > > > Greetings fellow collectors, > > > > A model railway enthusiast produced three plain yellow card boxes at > our gathering on Saturday morning. The were labeled Main Line Models > on plain white paper on one end. The label on each box described the > contents as Wood Car Kit and further as Poultry Car, Express Reefer > and 36ft Stock Car. The contents of these kits are made up of precut > wood which has the most delightful smell. A builder in our midst > identified the wood as Beech and the finer bits as Balsa. The > enthusiast wants to know more about these kits and I promised to ask > the this group. The basic questions are : Are these kits known? When > were they produced and of course are they rare and what are they > worth? The enthusiast purchased them off someones swop table at the > National Model Railroad gathering in Bloemfontein South Africa in 2006. > > > > I would be grateful for any input that will cast some light on these > items. > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Tertius Coetzee > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6703	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B  Caboose (# 981679) in the listing.  Please excuse also, the inch marks in the car sizes (40', 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned into ( " ).  Ray  I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that Shirley (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6704	From: Tom	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Rivarossi Heisler

HI, I am looking for some parts for a Rivarossi Heisler if anyone has them. I need a cab roof and the rear screw cover, the hatch cover on the top rear of the engine. Thanks, Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6705	From: Tom	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Rivarossi Heisler

HI, I am looking for some parts for a Rivarossi Heisler if anyone has them. I need a cab roof and the rear screw cover, the hatch cover on the top rear of the engine. Thanks, Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6706	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 7/25/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Hi All,     On the Main Line N6B caboose, there are two numbers that I’m sure exist. 981679, which you mention, Ray, and 981674.  I have them both, and the lettering is original on both.  Is anyone in our group aware of any additional numbers on the Main Line N6B caboose?                                                                                                                                                     Lou                                                                                                                                  On 7/25/08 7:37 PM, "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...> wrote:   Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B  Caboose (# 981679) in the listing.  Please excuse also, the inch marks in the car sizes (40', 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned into ( " ).  Ray  I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that Shirley (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6707	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale?

scale Craft made a number of OO locos. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> Subject: Re: NYC on Cumbres Pass Re: [vintageHO] Mantua OO Scale?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6708	From: Glenn476	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Heisler

You might try the O Narrow Gauge sites--V&T Shops, and later Wiseman make a kit to turn the Rivarossi Heisler into an O Scale 18-ton loco--usually leaving the parts you need as surplus. Don't know what I did with mine--that was 25 years ago. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Heisler >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6709	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Porter Mogul; Was, Mantua 00 scale

mmattjcoleman advised: >Having been stationed in Japan on one tour I wanted to note that >Japanese railroads were built to the British "Cape Gauge" of 3'-6" -- >and the Porter Mogul that was imported was actually a model of the >Benkei -- one of the first locomotives in Japan. It was preserved and >still exists. The Kidder import was actually to 1:80 or 1:76 and gives >some of the feel of the narrow gauge loco but still worked with HO >scale. The Japanese builder was apparently making these for the home >market when Ken Kidder met with him and he arranged to bring some in. >The rest, as they say, is history. > As Matt mentioned the Ken Kidder mogul was modeled after a bunch of 2-6-0s Porter exported to Japan starting in 1880. I believe 3 have been preserved, but, can only recall two by name, Yoshitsune, which bore number 1 and is stored in Osaka and Benkei which I believe is still in a Tokyo transport museum. When I was stationed In Japan I would, usually every 4 -6 weeks, for about a year and a half, present a class to employees of the JNR's English language program. This was not basic English but for advanced students. I always showed a RR related movie, courtesy of AAR, and emphasized American railroad terms. Anyway, in appreciation for that and knowing my love of trains, I was presented with a full working replica, solid brass, of the bell from locomotive #1, Yoshitsune along with a replica of the builder's plate. This is one of my most prized possessions as it is irreplaceable. I have uploaded a picture of the bell and plate in an album called Porter Mogul". Go to: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/b0bb?b=1&m=t

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6710	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog everything it was about the only thing like that available. Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed my life long interest in that item. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote: > > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B Caboose (# > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the car sizes (40', > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned into ( " ). > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that Shirley > (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray </HTML> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6711	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

OK, so far as Main Line Models, something doesn't sound quite right: I bought on eBay a bunch of paper and wood boxcars and included in the box were a lot of small paper envelopes from Megow and Varney. The Varney truck kits are labeled as Mainline Models towards the top, and Varney / 215 W. Ohio Street, CHICAGO So was Mainline a division of Varney at some point? My friend Bob, the hobby shop owner, said Mainline was Varney's WWII era cheapie line. He has been wrong before, as with his disability from the service, his mind is a bit shot. In the box of boxcars, they were mostly similar. All had very thick wood under paper overlays, thick enough you might think they were solid. The paper overlays are thinner then cars I know are Varney. Two cars still had their overlays uncut and not applied. These were very fragile due to age, and a nightmare to cut without doing damage. Some boxcars had ladders, these are cast metal and a bit clunky. On all cars, the embossings were shallow. Hard to see corrugated 'Youngstown' door detail, or detail on the ends. I am thinking these might be WWII era too. What doesn't make sense to me, is all the talk that Mainline wasn't around till later. Can someone shed some light here? -Steve N. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools > for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog > everything it was about the only thing like that > available. > > Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and > often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I > tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - > had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. > I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers > who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively > discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get > interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed > my life long interest in that item. > Joe O'Loughlin > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: > > > > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B > Caboose (# > > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the > car sizes (40', > > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned > into ( " ). > > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that > Shirley > > (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray > </HTML> > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6712	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: NYC #999 in Brass

I would almost kill for a NYC #999 in Brass I have always wanted to go to Chicago to the Transportation Museaum just to see it in its present state.....ALAS never will happen. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:28:21 -0000 > > > OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools > for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog > everything it was about the only thing like that > available. > > Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and > often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I > tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - > had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. > I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers > who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively > discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get > interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed > my life long interest in that item. > Joe O'Loughlin > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote: > > > > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B > Caboose (# > > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the > car sizes (40', > > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned > into ( " ). > > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that > Shirley > > (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray > </HTML> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6713	From: John Barlow	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

Dear Charlie,   I had one of those (Akane?)...and it was painted, etc. The drivers went through the board and were covered, as with the record setter...but the motor needed cleaning and relubing and breaking in again. Had to liquidate with other brass after my divorce in 1995. Getting cars for it posed the problem. If the drivers are totally below the sideboards, that is post-speed record version.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) --- On Sat, 7/26/08, Charles Windes <cwindes@...> wrote: From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> Subject: [vintageHO] NYC #999 in Brass To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 26, 2008, 10:59 AM I would almost kill for a NYC #999 in Brass I have always wanted to go to Chicago to the Transportation Museaum just to see it in its present state.....ALAS never will happen. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: oljoeoh <oljoe@landolls. com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:28:21 -0000 > > > OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools > for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog > everything it was about the only thing like that > available. > > Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and > often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I > tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - > had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. > I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers > who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively > discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get > interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed > my life long interest in that item. > Joe O'Loughlin > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, erieberk@... wrote: > > > > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B > Caboose (# > > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the > car sizes (40', > > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned > into ( " ). > > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that > Shirley > > (Y.O.H.'N.P. ) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray > </HTML> > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6714	From: Lee	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

How about scanning it or taking adigital picture of it and saving into the files section, then we all wont't be bothering you so much for a copy and save postage!Thansk, Lee --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > I have a 1957 "Catalog of Model Railroads" that shows > a list of products and some pictures of same. They > made 14 different billboard reefers, 14 express reefers, > several cattle cars, several chicken cars, 4 box cars, > and a Pennsy N6B caboose. Prices were 2.95 for any > of them. The express reefers had the expected passenger > style trucks. > > The 1991 edition of the same catalog no longer lists > anything for main line products. > > If your enthusiast friend would like a copy of the catalog > page I will need an address. > > Joe O'Loughlin > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6715	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

I can only speak to the Mainline N6B kit but if that was any example it certainly wasn't any kind of cheapie kit. It went together like it should have even though it was a challenge to my all plastic exposure at the time. I wanted the N6B bad enough to assemble it and it cured me of doing any more wood kits. It certainly wasn't any Ambroid 1 of 5000 kit. Bought the first one that came out and was amazed that I got a box of what seemed like toothpicks at what seemed to be a high price - seems to me the kits were about $10 - the price of several Athearn cars at the time. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > OK, so far as Main Line Models, something doesn't sound quite right: I > bought on eBay a bunch of paper and wood boxcars and included in the > box were a lot of small paper envelopes from Megow and Varney. > > The Varney truck kits are labeled as Mainline Models towards the top, > and Varney / 215 W. Ohio Street, CHICAGO > > > So was Mainline a division of Varney at some point? My friend Bob, the > hobby shop owner, said Mainline was Varney's WWII era cheapie line. He > has been wrong before, as with his disability from the service, his > mind is a bit shot. In the box of boxcars, they were mostly similar. > All had very thick wood under paper overlays, thick enough you might > think they were solid. The paper overlays are thinner then cars I know > are Varney. Two cars still had their overlays uncut and not applied. > These were very fragile due to age, and a nightmare to cut without > doing damage. Some boxcars had ladders, these are cast metal and a bit > clunky. > > On all cars, the embossings were shallow. Hard to see corrugated > 'Youngstown' door detail, or detail on the ends. I am thinking these > might be WWII era too. > > What doesn't make sense to me, is all the talk that Mainline wasn't > around till later. Can someone shed some light here? > > -Steve N. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@> wrote: > > > > OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools > > for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog > > everything it was about the only thing like that > > available. > > > > Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and > > often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I > > tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - > > had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. > > I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers > > who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively > > discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get > > interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed > > my life long interest in that item. > > Joe O'Loughlin > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: > > > > > > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B > > Caboose (# > > > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the > > car sizes (40', > > > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned > > into ( " ). > > > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that > > Shirley > > > (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray > > </HTML> > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6716	From: erieberk	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Hi Steve, Many of today's collectors not that familiar with these two lines, such as yourself, often get these confused. These two "different" names were not connected in the least. One is "Main Line Models" and the other is "Main Line Railway". The Main Line Models is the producer we are currently discussing. The Main Line Railway models is the line of economy cars that Varney produced during the War to replace their pre-War rolling stock kits. These Main Line Railway models were stricktly no-frills, although they used the same sides as the pre-War kits. So, your friend Bob is right when he told you this, if this is what he was referring to (which it no doubt was). Main Line Models, on the other hand, didn't come out until later, and had no affiliation at all to Varney. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > OK, so far as Main Line Models, something doesn't sound quite right: I > bought on eBay a bunch of paper and wood boxcars and included in the > box were a lot of small paper envelopes from Megow and Varney. > > The Varney truck kits are labeled as Mainline Models towards the top, > and Varney / 215 W. Ohio Street, CHICAGO > > > So was Mainline a division of Varney at some point? My friend Bob, the > hobby shop owner, said Mainline was Varney's WWII era cheapie line. He > has been wrong before, as with his disability from the service, his > mind is a bit shot. In the box of boxcars, they were mostly similar. > All had very thick wood under paper overlays, thick enough you might > think they were solid. The paper overlays are thinner then cars I know > are Varney. Two cars still had their overlays uncut and not applied. > These were very fragile due to age, and a nightmare to cut without > doing damage. Some boxcars had ladders, these are cast metal and a bit > clunky. > > On all cars, the embossings were shallow. Hard to see corrugated > 'Youngstown' door detail, or detail on the ends. I am thinking these > might be WWII era too. > > What doesn't make sense to me, is all the talk that Mainline wasn't > around till later. Can someone shed some light here? > > -Steve N. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@> wrote: > > > > OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools > > for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog > > everything it was about the only thing like that > > available. > > > > Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and > > often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I > > tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - > > had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. > > I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers > > who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively > > discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get > > interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed > > my life long interest in that item. > > Joe O'Loughlin > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: > > > > > > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B > > Caboose (# > > > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the > > car sizes (40', > > > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned > > into ( " ). > > > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that > > Shirley > > > (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray > > </HTML> > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6717	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

Be patient.... they do show up on ebay on occasion but they command ever higher prices. I got mine about 3 years ago and paid $190. The good news is that there were several importers of this beauty and ran well after they were broken in. Without taking a look to verify the facts I think there were about 5 importers. The best of the bunch was by Aristo Craft but the lettering was gold - when the prototype had Aluminum lettering but it sure was gorgeous to look at, and those 86" spoked drivers were also interesting. About my only complaint is that the motor ran hot - a common problem with most imported locos of the era. Lube them up well and run them. You would be disappointed in the 999 at the museum. Among other things it has much smaller drivers to allow it to be used a a short line loco. NO class there. Looks like any other 4-4-0 dressed that way. As an interesting aside, MTH has done a stunning example of the 999 in several different flavors including the first 999 in all it's colorful glory. The tender on the model is outsized on an otherwise well done rendition of the 999 in O gauge. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > > I would almost kill for a NYC #999 in Brass I have always wanted to go to Chicago to the Transportation Museaum just to see it in its present state.....ALAS never will happen. > Charlie > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:28:21 -0000 > > > > > > OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools > > for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog > > everything it was about the only thing like that > > available. > > > > Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and > > often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I > > tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - > > had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. > > I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers > > who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively > > discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get > > interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed > > my life long interest in that item. > > Joe O'Loughlin > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: > > > > > > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B > > Caboose (# > > > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the > > car sizes (40', > > > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned > > into ( " ). > > > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that > > Shirley > > > (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray > > </HTML> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6718	From: Martin Rosenfeld	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Hi Steve, Many of today's collectors not that familiar with these two lines, such as yourself, often get these confused. These two "different" names were not connected in the least. One is "Main Line Models" and the other is "Main Line Railway". And I suppose Mainline and Siding is yet a third company on the mainline? Martin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6719	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Barlow" <jdenver4150@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] NYC #999 in Brass Dear Charlie, I had one of those (Akane?)...and it was painted, etc. The drivers went through the board and were covered, as with the record setter...but the motor needed cleaning and relubing and breaking in again. Had to liquidate with other brass after my divorce in 1995. Getting cars for it posed the problem. If the drivers are totally below the sideboards, that is post-speed record version. John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) --- On Sat, 7/26/08, Charles Windes <cwindes@...> wrote: I seem to recall it was either LMB (Leonard Blum) or Gem that that imported most of them. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6720	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

We're talking about two different companies that both used the "Mainline" name. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:56 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > OK, so far as Main Line Models, something doesn't sound quite right: I > bought on eBay a bunch of paper and wood boxcars and included in the > box were a lot of small paper envelopes from Megow and Varney. > > The Varney truck kits are labeled as Mainline Models towards the top, > and Varney / 215 W. Ohio Street, CHICAGO > > > So was Mainline a division of Varney at some point? My friend Bob, the > hobby shop owner, said Mainline was Varney's WWII era cheapie line. He > has been wrong before, as with his disability from the service, his > mind is a bit shot. In the box of boxcars, they were mostly similar. > All had very thick wood under paper overlays, thick enough you might > think they were solid. The paper overlays are thinner then cars I know > are Varney. Two cars still had their overlays uncut and not applied. > These were very fragile due to age, and a nightmare to cut without > doing damage. Some boxcars had ladders, these are cast metal and a bit > clunky. > > On all cars, the embossings were shallow. Hard to see corrugated > 'Youngstown' door detail, or detail on the ends. I am thinking these > might be WWII era too. > > What doesn't make sense to me, is all the talk that Mainline wasn't > around till later. Can someone shed some light here? > > -Steve N. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: >> >> OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools >> for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog >> everything it was about the only thing like that >> available. >> >> Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and >> often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I >> tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - >> had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. >> I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers >> who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively >> discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get >> interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed >> my life long interest in that item. >> Joe O'Loughlin >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: >> > >> > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B >> Caboose (# >> > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the >> car sizes (40', >> > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned >> into ( " ). >> > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that >> Shirley >> > (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray >> </HTML> >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6721	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

The importers I remember are: Aristo Craft Akane LMB (Hobby House) Ken Kidder AHM but there were more. I just look for my book of brass and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many more there were. I seem to remember that they were all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft arrived in a nice red velvet box. Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions to this forum. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Barlow" <jdenver4150@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] NYC #999 in Brass > > > Dear Charlie, > > I had one of those (Akane?)...and it was painted, etc. The drivers went > through the board and were covered, as with the record setter...but the > motor needed cleaning and relubing and breaking in again. Had to liquidate > with other brass after my divorce in 1995. Getting cars for it posed the > problem. If the drivers are totally below the sideboards, that is post-speed > record version. > > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) > > --- On Sat, 7/26/08, Charles Windes <cwindes@...> wrote: > > > I seem to recall it was either LMB (Leonard Blum) or Gem that that imported > most of them. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6722	From: cnj999	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > The importers I remember are: > Aristo Craft > Akane > LMB (Hobby House) > Ken Kidder > AHM > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > to this forum. > > Joe O'Loughlin > Interestingly, the 3rd edition of the Brown Book only lists three importers under the specific heading of NYC #999: Aristo-Craft M.B.Austin Gem Ken Kidder and LMB are listed as having imported NYC 4-4-0's but they are not cited as representing #999. Gem probably had the largest total run of this item, with 800 units listed as imported in 1959-60. CNJ999

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6723	From: John Barlow	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

Don't think AHM ever did...think that was the IC's "Casey Jones"...and not in brass.   John --- On Sat, 7/26/08, cnj999 <jbortle@...> wrote: From: cnj999 <jbortle@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: NYC #999 in Brass To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 26, 2008, 2:56 PM --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > The importers I remember are: > Aristo Craft > Akane > LMB (Hobby House) > Ken Kidder > AHM > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > to this forum. > > Joe O'Loughlin > Interestingly, the 3rd edition of the Brown Book only lists three importers under the specific heading of NYC #999: Aristo-Craft M.B.Austin Gem Ken Kidder and LMB are listed as having imported NYC 4-4-0's but they are not cited as representing #999. Gem probably had the largest total run of this item, with 800 units listed as imported in 1959-60. CNJ999

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6724	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Porter Mogul; Was, Mantua 00 scale

Beautiful prized possession! (I'm green with envy!) > > Anyway, in appreciation for that and knowing my love of > trains, I was > presented with a full working replica, solid brass, of the > bell from > locomotive #1, Yoshitsune along with a replica of the > builder's plate. > > This is one of my most prized possessions as it is > irreplaceable. > > I have uploaded a picture of the bell and plate in an album > called > Porter Mogul". Go to: > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/b0bb?b=1&m=t > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6725	From: erieberk	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

This is quite true -- unless you had the actual manufacturer's catalogs, these hobbycraft catalogs were the next best thing (and still are). I found it often pays to go to any train meets (swap & sells) you can get to. That's where you'll stand a good chance of coming across this literature -- and hardly anyone else is interested in it as they're concentrating more on the models being offered. Before the internet, these train meets were the ONLY WAY to go and were even more popular then, even though they still draw good crowds. There have been loads of PRR models and kits offered from very early on, as this road was (and still is?) one of the most popular roads to model. There being such a diverse array of different engines and equipment didn't hurt matters either, as it made modeling the Pennsy all that more interesting. As for older customers preferring anything except PRR stuff, for one thing there has been an underlying dislike of the Pennsy by some older prototype fans/modelers who blame the Pennsy for dragging down the NYC when it was Penn Central, forcing them into Conrail, but that's all railroad politics, not needed to affect one's preference in this hobby. I guess everyone has seen (or been told about) the influence that your local prototype railroad played on the preference for models. What was local to you when you were first introduced to tains at an early age is often what you become a fan of. For anyone who lived in Harrisburg or Altoona, PA, I doubt that you would expect them to prefer the NYC unless by chance they just happened to take a liking to that road for reasons that overshadow the influence their local road had on them. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools > for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog > everything it was about the only thing like that > available. > > Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and > often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I > tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - > had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. > I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers > who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively > discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get > interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed > my life long interest in that item. > Joe O'Loughlin > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: > > > > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B > Caboose (# > > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the > car sizes (40', > > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned > into ( " ). > > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that > Shirley > > (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray > </HTML> > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6726	From: jbark76	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

I believe that Varney made a series of kits that had MAINLINE written on the front of the box, however, these are unrelated to the Mainline Models kits of the 50s and 60s.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6727	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

Hi all, I think there are some errors in some of your posts, the NYC #999 "Empire State Express" made by Olympia Models (58-50), was imported by Gem, MB Austin & Aristo-Craft. The other 4-4-0, imported a few years later (1965), was the Buchanan make by Kumata (KMT), which had smaller drivers, but looked overall the same as the model by Olympia. The Kumata model was imported by Ken Kidder & LM Blum. Great models, I have two of them.   Brian L.   In a message dated 7/26/2008 4:56:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jbortle@... writes: --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > The importers I remember are: > Aristo Craft > Akane > LMB (Hobby House) > Ken Kidder > AHM > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > to this forum. > > Joe O'Loughlin > Interestingly, the 3rd edition of the Brown Book only lists three importers under the specific heading of NYC #999: Aristo-Craft M.B.Austin Gem Ken Kidder and LMB are listed as having imported NYC 4-4-0's but they are not cited as representing #999. Gem probably had the largest total run of this item, with 800 units listed as imported in 1959-60. CNJ999 Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6728	From: C. Larry Bowen	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Repowering MDC Steam

Went to a Great Train Expo today and picked up 3 loco kits today. Sure hope I didn't mess-up too bad. What I am wanting to know....Is there anyone who can tell me anything about upgrading these to make them run much smoother and be used with DCC. The Locos are 3 MDC Roundhouse Kit Numbers 483, 484, and 491. That would be (2) 2-8-0 Cons. and (1) 2-6-0 Mogul. These kits are still brand new in the box. Heck, they still have the little plastic compartment liner in the boxes. I do know that NWSL used to make up-grades for these. But I went to their site and couldn't find anything for them today. Thought I would ask here to see if any of you have any ideas or thoughts. Thanks, Larry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6729	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Repowering MDC Steam

You may want to call NWSL and ask.  Even tho they do not show the upgrade kits, they may be able to put some together for you.  I have inquired several times regarding “obsolete” stuff, and they have always come thru.  They are wonderful people to deal with.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C. Larry Bowen Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 5:59 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Repowering MDC Steam   Went to a Great Train Expo today and picked up 3 loco kits today. Sure hope I didn't mess-up too bad. What I am wanting to know....Is there anyone who can tell me anything about upgrading these to make them run much smoother and be used with DCC. The Locos are 3 MDC Roundhouse Kit Numbers 483, 484, and 491. That would be (2) 2-8-0 Cons. and (1) 2-6-0 Mogul. These kits are still brand new in the box. Heck, they still have the little plastic compartment liner in the boxes. I do know that NWSL used to make up-grades for these. But I went to their site and couldn't find anything for them today. Thought I would ask here to see if any of you have any ideas or thoughts. Thanks, Larry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6730	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

I took a heck of a lot of detail shots of that 4-4-0 about 4 years ago........... Anyone know of a good photo site to put them on??? She looks really nice! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jul 26, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Charles Windes wrote: > I would almost kill for a NYC #999 in Brass I have always wanted to > go to Chicago to the Transportation Museaum just to see it in its > present state.....ALAS never will happen. > Charlie >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: oljoeoh >> >> OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools >> for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog >> everything it was about the only thing like that >> available. >> >> Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and >> often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I >> tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - >> had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. >> I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers >> who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively >> discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get >> interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed >> my life long interest in that item. >> Joe O'Loughlin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6731	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Repowering MDC Steam

Hi Larry, Back in the day, NWSL used to make regear kits for all the MDC engines, especially the narrow gauge consolidation, the same kit worked on both the inside and outside frame consolidations, even though they may not market re gear kits in a package any longer, chances are that they still make all the necessary gears, and they will gladly help you with all your needs.........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6732	From: Charles Bowen	Date: 7/26/2008
Subject: Re: Repowering MDC Steam

Well.  You and Jerry both give me the same advice and for that I say a resounding "THANK YOU!"  So I guess I will give NWSL a call Monday.  Again, Thanks, Larry GROWING OLD IS MANDATORY, GROWING UP IS OPTIONAL --- On Sat, 7/26/08, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Repowering MDC Steam To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 26, 2008, 8:54 PM Hi Larry, Back in the day, NWSL used to make regear kits for all the MDC engines, especially the narrow gauge consolidation, the same kit worked on both the inside and outside frame consolidations, even though they may not market re gear kits in a package any longer, chances are that they still make all the necessary gears, and they will gladly help you with all your needs....... ..:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6733	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

I know that LMB did the 999. I worked at Hobby House and sold several while I was working there. Also has access to the room where all the brass was stored, including the 999. I also have a catalog that shows the 999 (the reason I picked up the catalog). LMB imported a number of diffferent items. The other one that comes to mind is the Erie Triplex. I personally owned a heavily detailed Mikado that sported an excessive amount of fragile detailing. The workmanship on the LMB items wasn't in the same league with Pacific Fast Mail. I knew about the GEM offering but never saw an example. M.B. Austin doesn't ring a bell. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "cnj999" <jbortle@...> wrote: > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@> wrote: > > > > The importers I remember are: > > Aristo Craft > > Akane > > LMB (Hobby House) > > Ken Kidder > > AHM > > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > > to this forum. > > > > Joe O'Loughlin > > > > Interestingly, the 3rd edition of the Brown Book only lists three > importers under the specific heading of NYC #999: > Aristo-Craft > M.B.Austin > Gem > > Ken Kidder and LMB are listed as having imported NYC 4-4-0's but they > are not cited as representing #999. Gem probably had the largest > total run of this item, with 800 units listed as imported in 1959-60. > > CNJ999 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6734	From: erieberk	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Yes, Varney had "MAINLINE" written on the box, and I'd like to point out a MAJOR difference (and something for the collector to always look for), between Varney's MAINLINE products and the other manufacturer, MAIN LINE, even though its a relatively minor detail. Varney spelled "MAINLINE" as ONE WORD, whereas the "other" MAIN LINE spelled it as TWO WORDS. While seemingly insignificant, this minor detail will ALWAYS identify an otherwise undetermined kit to the confused collector. I did not use this spelling in my previous post, although I had this detail in my mind as a potential identifying difference, but I needed to check out my kits again first before verifying it, to refresh my memory. In looking through "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains," I notice that Dave Spanagel never pointed this out, and in fact consistantly spelled it as two words -- while this is an error in the publication. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jbark76" <jbark76@...> wrote: > > I believe that Varney made a series of kits that had MAINLINE written > on the front of the box, however, these are unrelated to the Mainline > Models kits of the 50s and 60s. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6735	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Main Line cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Main Line Models You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Main%20Line%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6736	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS

Ray, I have put up a file for the cars listed so far in these emails.  Still some blanks to be filled in later.  Think we will be getting some rain soon. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 3:09 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS   Hi Steve, Many of today's collectors not that familiar with these two lines, such as yourself, often get these confused. These two "different" names were not connected in the least. One is "Main Line Models" and the other is "Main Line Railway". The Main Line Models is the producer we are currently discussing. The Main Line Railway models is the line of economy cars that Varney produced during the War to replace their pre-War rolling stock kits. These Main Line Railway models were stricktly no-frills, although they used the same sides as the pre-War kits. So, your friend Bob is right when he told you this, if this is what he was referring to (which it no doubt was). Main Line Models, on the other hand, didn't come out until later, and had no affiliation at all to Varney. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6737	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

I believe they replaced the 86 drivers for 68 inch for hauling freight not too long after the speed run,,it is amazing that with all of the stuff NYC had they never saved anything for Posterity like B&O, they were too intrested in scrapping eveything out for the quick dollar, which PENN CENTRAL was also guilty of. To Hell with All Of US. Charles > ----- Original Message ----- > From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: NYC #999 in Brass > Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:11:31 -0000 > > > Be patient.... they do show up on ebay on occasion > but they command ever higher prices. I got mine about > 3 years ago and paid $190. The good news is that there > were several importers of this beauty and ran well > after they were broken in. Without taking a look to > verify the facts I think there were about 5 importers. > The best of the bunch was by Aristo Craft but the lettering > was gold - when the prototype had Aluminum lettering > but it sure was gorgeous to look at, and those 86" > spoked drivers were also interesting. > About my only complaint is that the motor ran hot - > a common problem with most imported locos of the era. > Lube them up well and run them. > > You would be disappointed in the 999 at the museum. Among > other things it has much smaller drivers to allow it to > be used a a short line loco. NO class there. Looks > like any other 4-4-0 dressed that way. > > As an interesting aside, MTH has done a stunning example > of the 999 in several different flavors including the > first 999 in all it's colorful glory. The tender on > the model is outsized on an otherwise well done > rendition of the 999 in O gauge. > Joe O'Loughlin > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > > > > I would almost kill for a NYC #999 in Brass I have always wanted to > go to Chicago to the Transportation Museaum just to see it in its > present state.....ALAS never will happen. > > Charlie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:28:21 -0000 > > > > > OOPS for me too. Those catalogs were great sales tools > > > for customers. While they certainly didn't catalog > > > everything it was about the only thing like that > > > available. > > > > Picked up both of the catalogs I have on e... and > > > often refer to them when I need info. I was 15 when I > > > tried building that kit. I was a big PRR fan then - > > > had plenty of Penn Line items including the GG-1 and T-1. > > > I had to contend with a sizeable group of older customers > > > who liked anything but PRR stuff and we often had lively > > > discussions about both the PRR and NYC. I really didn't get > > > interested in NYC until I saw a NYC 999 in brass and that fed > > > my life long interest in that item. > > > Joe O'Loughlin > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Oops, I missed including the M/L catalog # C-1 -- Pennsy N6B > > > Caboose (# > > > > 981679) in the listing. Please excuse also, the inch marks in the > > > car sizes (40', > > > > 42', etc.) -- hit the cap key when I was typing and a few turned > > > into ( " ). > > > > Ray I don't know of any Main Line flat cars or any H0N3 cars that > > > Shirley > > > > (Y.O.H.'N.P.) mentions, unless she was thinking about Binkley. Ray > > > </HTML> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! > > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6738	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

First time I tried to buy one throught RMC advertisers it was setting at just $99.00 at the time out of reach for me with a new family. maybe some day I will find one in the most unepected place. Charles > ----- Original Message ----- > From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: NYC #999 in Brass > Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:13:46 -0000 > > > The importers I remember are: > Aristo Craft > Akane > LMB (Hobby House) > Ken Kidder > AHM > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > to this forum. > > Joe O'Loughlin > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Barlow" <jdenver4150@...> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 12:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] NYC #999 in Brass > > > > > > Dear Charlie, > > > > I had one of those (Akane?)...and it was painted, etc. The > > drivers went through the board and were covered, as with the > > record setter...but the motor needed cleaning and relubing and > > breaking in again. Had to > liquidate > > with other brass after my divorce in 1995. Getting cars for it posed > the > > problem. If the drivers are totally below the sideboards, that is > post-speed > > record version. > > > > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) > > > > --- On Sat, 7/26/08, Charles Windes <cwindes@...> wrote: > > > > > > I seem to recall it was either LMB (Leonard Blum) or Gem that that > imported > > most of them. > > > > Don > > > > Don Dellmann > > don.dellmann@... > > Owner > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6739	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

I got a Casey Jones from AHM not a bad engine for what it is  looks accepatble, still in box Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Barlow" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NYC #999 in Brass Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Don't think AHM ever did...think that was the IC's "Casey Jones"...and not in brass.   John --- On Sat, 7/26/08, cnj999 <jbortle@...> wrote: From: cnj999 <jbortle@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: NYC #999 in Brass To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, July 26, 2008, 2:56 PM --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > The importers I remember are: > Aristo Craft > Akane > LMB (Hobby House) > Ken Kidder > AHM > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > to this forum. > > Joe O'Loughlin > Interestingly, the 3rd edition of the Brown Book only lists three importers under the specific heading of NYC #999: Aristo-Craft M.B.Austin Gem Ken Kidder and LMB are listed as having imported NYC 4-4-0's but they are not cited as representing #999. Gem probably had the largest total run of this item, with 800 units listed as imported in 1959-60. CNJ999 -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6740	From: oljoeoh	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

I found an MR review of the GEM 999 in the Feb 60 issue. Ad for 999 also in the same issue. It was made by Katsumi. Somewhere I also have a booklet from LMB with their 999 in it. Found my brass book and it also lists the LMB 999. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > I know that LMB did the 999. I worked at Hobby House > and sold several while I was working there. Also > has access to the room where all the brass was > stored, including the 999. I also have a catalog that > shows the 999 (the reason I picked up the catalog). > LMB imported a number of diffferent items. The other > one that comes to mind is the Erie Triplex. I personally > owned a heavily detailed Mikado that sported an excessive > amount of fragile detailing. The workmanship on the LMB > items wasn't in the same league with Pacific Fast Mail. > > I knew about the GEM offering but never saw an example. > M.B. Austin doesn't ring a bell. > Joe O'Loughlin > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "cnj999" <jbortle@> wrote: > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@> wrote: > > > > > > The importers I remember are: > > > Aristo Craft > > > Akane > > > LMB (Hobby House) > > > Ken Kidder > > > AHM > > > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > > > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > > > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > > > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > > > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > > > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > > > > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > > > to this forum. > > > > > > Joe O'Loughlin > > > > > > > Interestingly, the 3rd edition of the Brown Book only lists three > > importers under the specific heading of NYC #999: > > Aristo-Craft > > M.B.Austin > > Gem > > > > Ken Kidder and LMB are listed as having imported NYC 4-4-0's but they > > are not cited as representing #999. Gem probably had the largest > > total run of this item, with 800 units listed as imported in 1959-60. > > > > CNJ999 > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6741	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

Thanks for the info I am trying not to get the computer keyboard all messie but it is real hard not to drool on it while reading you have two of my coveted models....OH WELL comgrats. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NYC #999 in Brass Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 18:53:16 EDT Hi all, I think there are some errors in some of your posts, the NYC #999 "Empire State Express" made by Olympia Models (58-50), was imported by Gem, MB Austin & Aristo-Craft. The other 4-4-0, imported a few years later (1965), was the Buchanan make by Kumata (KMT), which had smaller drivers, but looked overall the same as the model by Olympia. The Kumata model was imported by Ken Kidder & LM Blum. Great models, I have two of them.   Brian L.   In a message dated 7/26/2008 4:56:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jbortle@... writes: --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > The importers I remember are: > Aristo Craft > Akane > LMB (Hobby House) > Ken Kidder > AHM > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > to this forum. > > Joe O'Loughlin > Interestingly, the 3rd edition of the Brown Book only lists three importers under the specific heading of NYC #999: Aristo-Craft M.B.Austin Gem Ken Kidder and LMB are listed as having imported NYC 4-4-0's but they are not cited as representing #999. Gem probably had the largest total run of this item, with 800 units listed as imported in 1959-60. CNJ999 Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6742	From: erieberk	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: MAIN LINE MODELS, Was: INTERESTING LIFE LI

Hi Chuck, I was going to suggest to you that we do a Main Line Models spread sheet, but then realizing that I still "owe" for the completion of the Walthers production of the Ulrich cars I opted not to mention this yet. I found your Main Line Models spread sheet all set up and ready to go; looks good. With your statement of already listing some cars, with some blanks to be filled in later, I actually expected a fairly good inventory of them and not a nearly blank sheet (LOL). No problem, that will give us something to tackle. In looking for my Main Line Models article last night, that I thought I wrote for the H0 Scale Collectors and History - Special Interest Group (NRHS), I came across my long misplaced manuscript on Railmaster, which I see you've started also. As with my previous articles for that publication, this one is 4 full typewritten pages long (it includes the history, the boxes, the construction and such as well as the complete listing of cars. As I wrote it about 20 years ago, I've since added to my collection of them but don't have the road numbers on hand for those. My problem is that I have enough kits to last 5 lifetimes, all stored away, and to get at them to check them out is a real bear, especially as I never tagged the large cartons I put each manufacturer in. You can expect the same when I get to Main Line as I don't have the car numbers written down (and the kits are "buried"). Looks like I have between 90 and 95% of that manufacturer complete (instead of the 85 to 90% I reported), so whenever I get down into them we'll be able to nearly complete the spreadsheet. I find the hoppers are the hardest kits to find, and now when you run across them, they're asking an arm and a leg. I did find the Main Line article, but I found that Dave Spanagel wrote it (not I); I'll supply you with some of his numbers. Interestingly, Dave further broke down the Bill Board Reefers into Billboard and Private Owner reefers. Perhaps he has a valid point doing this although I don't see the difference between them. To start with though, I'm going to give you the Railmaster listings. As the text part is too much for me to re-type, you might want me to snail mail that to you if you want to put it with the spreadsheet. Yup, looks like rain here too, in the Northeast. Later, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I have put up a file for the cars listed so far in these emails. Still some > blanks to be filled in later. Think we will be getting some rain soon. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 3:09 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > > Hi Steve, Many of today's collectors not that familiar with these > two lines, such as yourself, often get these confused. These > two "different" names were not connected in the least. One is "Main > Line Models" and the other is "Main Line Railway". > > The Main Line Models is the producer we are currently discussing. > The Main Line Railway models is the line of economy cars that Varney > produced during the War to replace their pre-War rolling stock kits. > These Main Line Railway models were stricktly no-frills, although > they used the same sides as the pre-War kits. So, your friend Bob is > right when he told you this, if this is what he was referring to > (which it no doubt was). > > Main Line Models, on the other hand, didn't come out until later, and > had no affiliation at all to Varney. Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6743	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

Irony... I pointed out some errors in some of the other posts and embarrassingly enough there was an error in mine! LMB did indeed import the 999, and also the Buchanan. The Buchanan in 1965 and the 999 in 1968 I believe.  Last year I had removed one of the built in florescent light fixtures in my train room and while I was at the Home Depot getting a new part for the light, a Sparrow flew in through the hole in the ceiling from the attic and landed on one of the 999 engines. Needless to say it came crashing down from the display case, along with three or four other brass engines. I walked in and found the engines on the floor in pieces. It took me several days to reassemble all of them. Luckily nothing was bent, just a lot of solder joints to redo. The bird made his escape back through the hole in the ceiling, leaving only a few feathers behind. If I would have caught him, he would still be behind bars!!!! Needless to say, my display cases now have glass doors.   Brian L.   In a message dated 7/27/2008 4:39:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cwindes@... writes: Thanks for the info I am trying not to get the computer keyboard all messie but it is real hard not to drool on it while reading you have two of my coveted models....OH WELL comgrats. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NYC #999 in Brass Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 18:53:16 EDT Hi all, I think there are some errors in some of your posts, the NYC #999 "Empire State Express" made by Olympia Models (58-50), was imported by Gem, MB Austin & Aristo-Craft. The other 4-4-0, imported a few years later (1965), was the Buchanan make by Kumata (KMT), which had smaller drivers, but looked overall the same as the model by Olympia. The Kumata model was imported by Ken Kidder & LM Blum. Great models, I have two of them.   Brian L.   In a message dated 7/26/2008 4:56:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jbortle@aol. com writes: --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > The importers I remember are: > Aristo Craft > Akane > LMB (Hobby House) > Ken Kidder > AHM > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > to this forum. > > Joe O'Loughlin > Interestingly, the 3rd edition of the Brown Book only lists three importers under the specific heading of NYC #999: Aristo-Craft M.B.Austin Gem Ken Kidder and LMB are listed as having imported NYC 4-4-0's but they are not cited as representing #999. Gem probably had the largest total run of this item, with 800 units listed as imported in 1959-60. CNJ999 Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6744	From: erieberk	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models

Chuck, I'm going to give you just an introductory excerpt first from my Railmaster article, as I'm still having 'puter problems. Besides, a listing of Railmaster kits would not be complete without mentioning these earlier products (at their first address). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R A I L M A S T E R . . . . . . . . . . This infinitely interesting line of metal cars has a rather brief span of history, covering but two years. The company itself spans a period of a little over four years including an interum period of inactivity, changing addresses three times. The first advertisement for them appeared in July 1946, for H0 brass wheel sets. The following month, August '46, saw an ad for new scribed and printed H0 reefer sides for five roads; Kahn's Dressed Beef (36'), Morrell's Pride Hams, Borden's Cheese, Northwestern Reefer and Dry Ice Reefer (all 40'). Their address at this time was Utah Scale Models, 1409 Federal Way, Salt Lake City, Utah. Nothing more was heard from them atbthis address. The first ad, after a somewhat quiet interum of two years, appeared in August '48 announcing that "Now . . . RAILMASTER is here!" This ad introduced their line if metal cars, the first one being produced being the 32' UP hopper. Their address now was Utah Scal Models, 875 East 5600 South, Murray, Utah. September, October and November of 1948 saw the introduction of the 65' mill gondolas, panel side hoppers and composite hoppers, respectively. Their excellent quality free-rolling "Dyna-Glide" trucks were brought out during this period. A listing of the complete Railmaster line (as of this time) of hoppers, stock cars and mill gons, with catalog numbers, was shown as their 1949 ad. July '49 brought the National Plate Glass covered hopper, while the stock cars promised for November of '48 and listed in their February '49 ad did not come out until August '49. By October of '49, the hi-side gondola was advertised in a series of six roadnames. In November of 1949, their address (and company name) was officially changed to "Railmaster & Co.," and simply, Murray, Utah." Check with you later, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hi Chuck, I was going to suggest to you that we do a Main Line Models > spread sheet, but then realizing that I still "owe" for the > completion of the Walthers production of the Ulrich cars I opted not > to mention this yet. > > I found your Main Line Models spread sheet all set up and ready to > go; looks good. With your statement of already listing some cars, > with some blanks to be filled in later, I actually expected a fairly > good inventory of them and not a nearly blank sheet (LOL). No > problem, that will give us something to tackle. > > In looking for my Main Line Models article last night, that I thought > I wrote for the H0 Scale Collectors and History - Special Interest > Group (NRHS), I came across my long misplaced manuscript on > Railmaster, which I see you've started also. As with my previous > articles for that publication, this one is 4 full typewritten pages > long (it includes the history, the boxes, the construction and such > as well as the complete listing of cars. > > As I wrote it about 20 years ago, I've since added to my collection > of them but don't have the road numbers on hand for those. My > problem is that I have enough kits to last 5 lifetimes, all stored > away, and to get at them to check them out is a real bear, especially > as I never tagged the large cartons I put each manufacturer in. You > can expect the same when I get to Main Line as I don't have the car > numbers written down (and the kits are "buried"). Looks like I have > between 90 and 95% of that manufacturer complete (instead of the 85 > to 90% I reported), so whenever I get down into them we'll be able to > nearly complete the spreadsheet. I find the hoppers are the hardest > kits to find, and now when you run across them, they're asking an arm > and a leg. > > I did find the Main Line article, but I found that Dave Spanagel > wrote it (not I); I'll supply you with some of his numbers. > Interestingly, Dave further broke down the Bill Board Reefers into > Billboard and Private Owner reefers. Perhaps he has a valid point > doing this although I don't see the difference between them. > > To start with though, I'm going to give you the Railmaster listings. > As the text part is too much for me to re-type, you might want me to > snail mail that to you if you want to put it with the spreadsheet. > > Yup, looks like rain here too, in the Northeast. Later, Ray Wetzel > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> > wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > I have put up a file for the cars listed so far in these emails. > Still some > > blanks to be filled in later. Think we will be getting some rain > soon. > > > > Take care, > > > > > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf > > Of erieberk > > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 3:09 PM > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS > > > > > > > > Hi Steve, Many of today's collectors not that familiar with these > > two lines, such as yourself, often get these confused. These > > two "different" names were not connected in the least. One is "Main > > Line Models" and the other is "Main Line Railway". > > > > The Main Line Models is the producer we are currently discussing. > > The Main Line Railway models is the line of economy cars that > Varney > > produced during the War to replace their pre-War rolling stock > kits. > > These Main Line Railway models were stricktly no-frills, although > > they used the same sides as the pre-War kits. So, your friend Bob > is > > right when he told you this, if this is what he was referring to > > (which it no doubt was). > > > > Main Line Models, on the other hand, didn't come out until later, > and > > had no affiliation at all to Varney. Ray > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6745	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 7/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: MAIN LINE MODELS, Was: INTERESTI

HI Ray, yes really not much there.  But when ever you have something I will add it.  I will forward my snail mail address later. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:10 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Fw: MAIN LINE MODELS, Was: INTERESTING LIFE LIKE KITS   Hi Chuck, I was going to suggest to you that we do a Main Line Models spread sheet, but then realizing that I still "owe" for the completion of the Walthers production of the Ulrich cars I opted not to mention this yet. I found your Main Line Models spread sheet all set up and ready to go; looks good. With your statement of already listing some cars, with some blanks to be filled in later, I actually expected a fairly good inventory of them and not a nearly blank sheet (LOL). No problem, that will give us something to tackle.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6746	From: erieberk	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models

Okay Chuck, here are some details (car numbers, colors, etc.) to the Railmaster car listing. You'll note, I'm splitting them up into early production and later production since there were two periods when they introduced these kits. Those marked with an asterisk (*) have tri- colored heralds. BTW, you are correct in listing the covered hopper separately. This is the way I originally saw it as cataloged by Railmaster, and the way I included it in my article, but I was reading off of Frank Brua's (Park Variety) 4-page Metal Car Collector's Listing a few days ago, that had it included in with the ribbed side hopper. Mr. Brua was kind enough to offer these lists (in several updated versions) to his customers back in the ' 70's; they didn't include car numbers, but had the car types of 8 metal car manufacturers (Athearn, Varney, Ulrich, MDC, Thomas, Globe and Railmaster) with the corresponding road names -- came in very handy. . . . . . . . . . . . . . R A I L M A S T E R . . . . . . . . . . . . . Early Prodfuction (as of February 1949): Cat. # . . Road Name . . . Road Number . . . . Color, Sides & Letter'g . Straight Side (Ribbed) Hopper: 1 . . . . Undec . . . . . __________ . . . . . . . . ___________ . . . . 2 . . . . Union Pacific . . . 32814- . . . Box Car Red w/White or Yellow 3 . . . . Western Pacific . . 17040- . . . Black w/White Lettering . . . 4 . . . . C B & Q . . . . . . 192500 . . . Box Car Red w/White Letter'g 5 . . . . Birmingham Southern- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . P R R . . . . . . . 220300 . . . Tuscan Red w/White Lettering 7 . . . . CCC&StL (Big Four). 79360- . . . Box Car Red w/White Letter'g 8 . . . . Southern. . . . . . 111990 . . . Black w/White Lettering . . . 9 . . . . Illinois Central. . 210630 . . . Black w/White Lettering . . . 10. . . . Reading Company . . 32080- . . . Black w/White Lettering . . . I could keep going, but I don't trust my 'puter not to bail out on me, Will continue this next page, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6747	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: RailMaster National Plate Glass Covered Hopper

I am posting a photo of a RailMaster National Plate Glass Covered Hopper in the photo section, under RailMaster, for anyone who wishes to view it. I had come across two of the kits a while back, neither was in the best of shape... but I was able to make this one car out of the two of them. I did not have the original trucks, the pair on the car is a pair of Silver Streak Arch Bar trucks. I can, ( and probably should have ), posted a picture of the box. I'll try to get to that later. Stephen The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6748	From: erieberk	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER, Continued -- by Ray Wetzel

Hey Chuck, Will finish the early production up in 2 posts. Just tried it all in one and I lost it all. Please add an asterisk (*) after the color description of the Reading Ribbed Hopper as this car has a tri- colored herald. We'll make a notation for these heralds at the very end. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R A I L M A S T E R . . . . . . . . . . . . Early Production (as of February 1949): Cat. # . . Road Name . . . Road Number . . Color, Sides & Lettering. . Panel Side Hopper: 1 . . . . Undec. . . . . . . ___________ . . . _____________ . . . . . 2 . . . . Frisco (SL-SF) . . 88517 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . Missouri Pacific . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . New York Central . 854620. . . . Box Car Red w/White Letter'g 5 . . . . Wabash . . . . . . 36110 . . . . Black w/White Lettering . . Composite Hopper: 1 . . . . Undec. . . . . . . ___________ . . . _______________ . . . . . 2 . . . . NC&StL . . . . . . 31290 . . . . Black w/White Lettering 3 . . . . Lehigh Valley. . . 14001 . . . . Box Car Red w/White Letter'g 4 . . . . Southern . . . . . 104670. . . . Black w/White Lettering 5 . . . . AT&SF- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Covered Hopper: 1 . . . ; Undec. . . . . . . ___________ . . . _________________ . . . . 2 . . . . National Plate Glass 202 . . . . Black w/White Lettering ______________________________________________________________________ More to come -- Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6749	From: erieberk	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER, Continued -- by Ray Wetzel

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R A I L M A S T E R . . . . . . . . . . . Early Production (as of February 1949): Cat. # . . Road Name . . . . Road Number . . Color, Side & Lettering . Stock Car: 1 . . . . Undec. . . . . . .______________ . . . _______________ . . . _ 2 . . . . UP (Livestock Dispatch) 47035. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . M-K-T (Katy) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mill Gondola: 1 . . . . Undec. . . . . . .______________ . . . _______________ . . . . 2 . . . . D & R G W. . . . . . . 30040 . . . . . Black w/White Lettering 3 . . . . Sante Fe (ATSF). . . .170970 . . . . . B/C Red w/White Lettr'g 4 . . . . Southern Pacific . . . 94250 . . . . . B/C Red w/White Lettr'g 5 . . . . Baltimore & Ohio . . .450200 . . . . . Black w/White Lettering 6 . . . . Lackawanna (DL&W). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . Western Maryland . . . 50531 . . . . . White w/Red Lettering 8 . . . . ERIE . . . . . . . . . 15000 . . . . . Black w/White Lettering 9 . . . . Illinois Central . . . . . . . . . . . Black w/White Lettering 10. . . . Reading Company. . . . . . . . . . . . Black w/White Lettering Hi-Side Gondola (offered in October 1949): . . . . . Texas & Pacific. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Chicago & Northwestern . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Chesapeake & Ohio. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Atlantic Coast Line. . 95392 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Louisville & Nashville . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ______________________________________________________________________ That's it on the early production. As you can see, the Hi-Side Gondolas were not easy to get since they had the shortest production run, near the very end. On the UP Ribbed Side Hopper, it should read "White or Yellow Lettering" if you even want to include the lettering -- or just use the colors for the sides. There are also Flat Cars produced by Railmaster, but I've never seen a listing for them to know what roadnames were used. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6750	From: Charles Windes	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

Yipes! If I could have caught the culprit it would have been stuffed and then burned to the brass Gods. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NYC #999 in Brass Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:28:42 EDT Irony... I pointed out some errors in some of the other posts and embarrassingly enough there was an error in mine! LMB did indeed import the 999, and also the Buchanan. The Buchanan in 1965 and the 999 in 1968 I believe.  Last year I had removed one of the built in florescent light fixtures in my train room and while I was at the Home Depot getting a new part for the light, a Sparrow flew in through the hole in the ceiling from the attic and landed on one of the 999 engines. Needless to say it came crashing down from the display case, along with three or four other brass engines. I walked in and found the engines on the floor in pieces. It took me several days to reassemble all of them. Luckily nothing was bent, just a lot of solder joints to redo. The bird made his escape back through the hole in the ceiling, leaving only a few feathers behind. If I would have caught him, he would still be behind bars!!!! Needless to say, my display cases now have glass doors.   Brian L.   In a message dated 7/27/2008 4:39:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cwindes@... writes: Thanks for the info I am trying not to get the computer keyboard all messie but it is real hard not to drool on it while reading you have two of my coveted models....OH WELL comgrats. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NYC #999 in Brass Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 18:53:16 EDT Hi all, I think there are some errors in some of your posts, the NYC #999 "Empire State Express" made by Olympia Models (58-50), was imported by Gem, MB Austin & Aristo-Craft. The other 4-4-0, imported a few years later (1965), was the Buchanan make by Kumata (KMT), which had smaller drivers, but looked overall the same as the model by Olympia. The Kumata model was imported by Ken Kidder & LM Blum. Great models, I have two of them.   Brian L.   In a message dated 7/26/2008 4:56:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jbortle@aol. com writes: --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote: > > The importers I remember are: > Aristo Craft > Akane > LMB (Hobby House) > Ken Kidder > AHM > but there were more. I just look for my book of brass > and can't find it - yet, so I can't be sure how many > more there were. I seem to remember that they were > all priced about the same 29.95 to 34.95. Most > arrived already painted but not all. The Aristo Craft > arrived in a nice red velvet box. > > Seems to me I also sent a copy of the 999 assembly instructions > to this forum. > > Joe O'Loughlin > Interestingly, the 3rd edition of the Brown Book only lists three importers under the specific heading of NYC #999: Aristo-Craft M.B.Austin Gem Ken Kidder and LMB are listed as having imported NYC 4-4-0's but they are not cited as representing #999. Gem probably had the largest total run of this item, with 800 units listed as imported in 1959-60. CNJ999 Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6751	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Re: NYC #999 in Brass

LOL, believe me, that's how I felt at the time.   Brian L. Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6752	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 7/28/2008
Subject: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

I received an eBay alert on the following NYO&W Funaro & Camerlengo craftsman kits: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180268552439 . Until now, I had never heard of F&C kits. With a little Googling, I came up with http://www.fandckits.com/Index.html . The company makes both kits and R2R, but they're in resin (not styrene). Not cheap either but apparently highly detailed according to their website and price. F&C from its website seems to have been in business for about 20 years, so I don't know if they're classified as "vintage" or "modern" kits or a hybrid of both. I do only highly detailed and definitely vintage craftsman kits, almost all of wood (made in 40s to 60s by Quality Craft Models (s/s Ambroid), Gloor, Bowser [OK, not wood], and the like), kits that come with a gazillion pieces and that I can kitbash into O&W rolling stock or back-home buildings. I do not do simplistic plastic kits such as Athearn (yeah, OK, I'm a model RR kit snob). At the moment, based solely on the eBay auction's photos, it might appear that F&C is somewhere between Athearn and Quality Craft Models but I can't be certain of that (F&C's website shows only images of the finished cars; there is also some html coding anomalies which don't permit digging deeper for more detail on the kits, especially these NYO&W kits). So, my long-winded query to the group: does anyone have any experience with F&C kits? Are they truly as challenging and accurate to construct as Quality Craft Models (s/s Ambroid) or other similar kits? Or are they just another detailed plastic injection model in which the ends, sides, and roof are glued onto the frame, add your own trucks and couplers? Thanks in advance. Fred Stevens currently in Prescott, AZ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6753	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Stevens K2FRD" <k2frd@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage? >I received an eBay alert on the following NYO&W Funaro & Camerlengo > craftsman kits: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180268552439 > . Until now, I had never heard of F&C kits. With a little Googling, I > came up with http://www.fandckits.com/Index.html . The company makes > both kits and R2R, but they're in resin (not styrene). Not cheap > either but apparently highly detailed according to their website and > price. F&C from its website seems to have been in business for about > 20 years, so I don't know if they're classified as "vintage" or > "modern" kits or a hybrid of both. > > I do only highly detailed and definitely vintage craftsman kits, > almost all of wood (made in 40s to 60s by Quality Craft Models (s/s > Ambroid), Gloor, Bowser [OK, not wood], and the like), kits that come > with a gazillion pieces and that I can kitbash into O&W rolling stock > or back-home buildings. I do not do simplistic plastic kits such as > Athearn (yeah, OK, I'm a model RR kit snob). At the moment, based > solely on the eBay auction's photos, it might appear that F&C is > somewhere between Athearn and Quality Craft Models but I can't be > certain of that (F&C's website shows only images of the finished > cars; there is also some html coding anomalies which don't permit > digging deeper for more detail on the kits, especially these NYO&W > kits). > > So, my long-winded query to the group: does anyone have any > experience with F&C kits? Are they truly as challenging and accurate > to construct as Quality Craft Models (s/s Ambroid) or other similar > kits? Or are they just another detailed plastic injection model in > which the ends, sides, and roof are glued onto the frame, add your > own trucks and couplers? > > Thanks in advance. > > Fred Stevens > currently in Prescott, AZ They are resin kits like Westerfield and others of that ilk, but of not as high quality. I have never tried one, but everyone I know who has generally has pretty bad things to say about them, It seems they are made from rubber molds, and the parts are usually pretty badly warped and difficult to put together neatly. I think you'd be disappointed. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6754	From: rny11	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > > I received an eBay alert on the following NYO&W Funaro & Camerlengo > craftsman kits: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&rd=1&item=180268552439 > . Until now, I had never heard of F&C kits. With a little Googling, I > came up with http://www.fandckits.com/Index.html . The company makes > both kits and R2R, but they're in resin (not styrene). Not cheap > either but apparently highly detailed according to their website and > price. F&C from its website seems to have been in business for about > 20 years, so I don't know if they're classified as "vintage" or > "modern" kits or a hybrid of both. > > I do only highly detailed and definitely vintage craftsman kits, > almost all of wood (made in 40s to 60s by Quality Craft Models (s/s > Ambroid), Gloor, Bowser [OK, not wood], and the like), kits that come > with a gazillion pieces and that I can kitbash into O&W rolling stock > or back-home buildings. I do not do simplistic plastic kits such as > Athearn (yeah, OK, I'm a model RR kit snob). At the moment, based > solely on the eBay auction's photos, it might appear that F&C is > somewhere between Athearn and Quality Craft Models but I can't be > certain of that (F&C's website shows only images of the finished > cars; there is also some html coding anomalies which don't permit > digging deeper for more detail on the kits, especially these NYO&W > kits). > > So, my long-winded query to the group: does anyone have any > experience with F&C kits? Are they truly as challenging and accurate > to construct as Quality Craft Models (s/s Ambroid) or other similar > kits? Or are they just another detailed plastic injection model in > which the ends, sides, and roof are glued onto the frame, add your > own trucks and couplers? > > Thanks in advance. > > Fred Stevens > currently in Prescott, AZ > Hi Fred,F&C kits are very nice but personnely I won't put them in the same class with say Central Valley, my favorite. We have a F&C kit listed on our web site www.brasstrainsandmore.ecrater.com that shows the #2090 PRR H32 Covered Hopper laid out in pieces. I believe this is one of their early efforts. It's resin. Dave

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6755	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

The seller wants 40 bucks starting bid for all three kits, which on the surface isn't a bad deal, and they are NYO&W specific (I have to presume they are accurate models of prototypes, not necessarily a viable presumption) but I'm not about to invest that much money if they're warped, inaccurate, or have other deficiencies. Dave, looks like most of the details are already molded into the parts which, for me is a disadvantage of plastic. I gotta check out your site some more in some depth. You have some intriguing items listed. For now, I'll stick with wood. Thanks to you both. Fred At 6:47 AM -0500 29/7/08, Don Dellmann wrote: > > >They are resin kits like Westerfield and others of that ilk, but of not as >high quality. > >I have never tried one, but everyone I know who has generally has pretty bad >things to say about them, It seems they are made from rubber molds, and the >parts are usually pretty badly warped and difficult to put together neatly. > >I think you'd be disappointed. > >Don > >Don Dellmann >don.dellmann@... >Owner >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6756	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

Hi Fred, I have several F&C kits and while they are not quite as nice as Westerfield, the new kits are definitely not bad.  The kits shown on eBay appear to be an older F&C and maybe the older products are where the complaints come from.  I have not yet built one of the F&C kits, but have examined them and they seem fine.  A lot of the newer kits have one-piece bodies and are not flat kits as these in the auction appear.  The new F&C kits come with decals or not, your choice, but F&C will sell you decals, depending on availability.  These are craftsman kits in a lot of ways, because even after you glue up the parts, there are quite a few details to be added....some of these details must be made up by you.  Even the Westerfield kits have these issues, as do Sylvan resin kits.  I have built an older Westerfield kit and that was a bit of a chore.  The parts were very fragile and one had to be very careful NOT too exert too much pressure on any thin web pieces.  I have never been heavy handed as I have built several Quality Craft and Ambroid kits without hurting them.  I am looking forward to finishing my current projects so I can build my F&C B&O flat cars and my B&O wagon top hoppers.  Check out the site: http://www.fandckits.com/Index.html Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: k2frd@... Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:47:31 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage? I received an eBay alert on the following NYO&W Funaro & Camerlengo craftsman kits: http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& rd=1&item= 180268552439 . Until now, I had never heard of F&C kits. With a little Googling, I came up with http://www.fandckit s.com/Index. html . The company makes both kits and R2R, but they're in resin (not styrene). Not cheap either but apparently highly detailed according to their website and price. F&C from its website seems to have been in business for about 20 years, so I don't know if they're classified as "vintage" or "modern" kits or a hybrid of both. I do only highly detailed and definitely vintage craftsman kits, almost all of wood (made in 40s to 60s by Quality Craft Models (s/s Ambroid), Gloor, Bowser [OK, not wood], and the like), kits that come with a gazillion pieces and that I can kitbash into O&W rolling stock or back-home buildings. I do not do simplistic plastic kits such as Athearn (yeah, OK, I'm a model RR kit snob). At the moment, based solely on the eBay auction's photos, it might appear that F&C is somewhere between Athearn and Quality Craft Models but I can't be certain of that (F&C's website shows only images of the finished cars; there is also some html coding anomalies which don't permit digging deeper for more detail on the kits, especially these NYO&W kits). So, my long-winded query to the group: does anyone have any experience with F&C kits? Are they truly as challenging and accurate to construct as Quality Craft Models (s/s Ambroid) or other similar kits? Or are they just another detailed plastic injection model in which the ends, sides, and roof are glued onto the frame, add your own trucks and couplers? Thanks in advance. Fred Stevens currently in Prescott, AZ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. Connect on the go.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6757	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

Hi Fred, F&C has been around since the 1970's, and in the Walthers catolog since the mid 80's, a friend of mine used to build everything they brought out, they have always had decent kits, however, their older kits are flat kits, not one piece body, so it takes quite a bit of patience to build one of these kits............:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6758	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

Internet Explorer works on his pages, Netscape and Firefox bomb. Individual links for NYO&W are as follows: http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/2080.html http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/3200.html http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/5110.html Cordially, Gerry --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage? > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 11:47 PM > I received an eBay alert on the following NYO&W Funaro > & Camerlengo > craftsman kits: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180268552439 > > . Until now, I had never heard of F&C kits. With a > little Googling, I > came up with http://www.fandckits.com/Index.html . The > company makes > both kits and R2R, but they're in resin (not styrene). > Not cheap > either but apparently highly detailed according to their > website and > price. F&C from its website seems to have been in > business for about > 20 years, so I don't know if they're classified as > "vintage" or > "modern" kits or a hybrid of both. > > I do only highly detailed and definitely vintage craftsman > kits, > almost all of wood (made in 40s to 60s by Quality Craft > Models (s/s > Ambroid), Gloor, Bowser [OK, not wood], and the like), kits > that come > with a gazillion pieces and that I can kitbash into O&W > rolling stock > or back-home buildings. I do not do simplistic plastic kits > such as > Athearn (yeah, OK, I'm a model RR kit snob). At the > moment, based > solely on the eBay auction's photos, it might appear > that F&C is > somewhere between Athearn and Quality Craft Models but I > can't be > certain of that (F&C's website shows only images of > the finished > cars; there is also some html coding anomalies which > don't permit > digging deeper for more detail on the kits, especially > these NYO&W > kits). > > So, my long-winded query to the group: does anyone have any > > experience with F&C kits? Are they truly as challenging > and accurate > to construct as Quality Craft Models (s/s Ambroid) or other > similar > kits? Or are they just another detailed plastic injection > model in > which the ends, sides, and roof are glued onto the frame, > add your > own trucks and couplers? > > Thanks in advance. > > Fred Stevens > currently in Prescott, AZ > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6759	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 7/29/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

Thanks, Gerry! Those URLs worked with Firefox although I wasn't able to secure direct access from the F&C home page via Firefox, iCab, nor Safari. I use IE (latest Mac version is only 5.2.2) as little as possible since it messes up non-MS created sites (overlaps, non-wraps). I didn't try Netscape. I really, really like #5110. It would provide the O&W early 1900s I want to portray on my layout. I think I'll give it a try. Always, Fred At 7:24 PM -0700 29/7/08, Gerry D wrote: >Internet Explorer works on his pages, Netscape and Firefox bomb. >Individual links for NYO&W are as follows: > >http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/2080.html > >http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/3200.html > >http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/5110.html > >Cordially, >Gerry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6760	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

Fortunately for me, the site works in Safari....... and in Mac- Firefox..... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Jul 29, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Gerry D wrote: > Internet Explorer works on his pages, Netscape and Firefox bomb. > Individual links for NYO&W are as follows: > > http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/2080.html > > http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/3200.html > > http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/5110.html > > Cordially, > Gerry > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > >> From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage? >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 11:47 PM >> I received an eBay alert on the following NYO&W Funaro >> & Camerlengo >> craftsman kits: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180268552439 >> >> . Until now, I had never heard of F&C kits. With a >> little Googling, I >> came up with http://www.fandckits.com/Index.html . The >> company makes >> both kits and R2R, but they're in resin.............

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6761	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

Hi folks, I don't know how familiar you are with F&C practices, but if you are not in a rush and you can go to the next show they will attend, then usually you can get 2 for 1.  Two kits for the price of one is how they sell them.  So you would be able to get 2 of the 5110's or one 5110 and another kit at the same price or lower for the $31.99.  I do not know if this works when you order on line or by phone, but that is how they work when you buy the kits at a train show.  That puts the price at very reasonable for some decent kits.  If you are planning on going to a show, it would probably be a good idea to let them know what kits you want so they can have them available at the show. Regards. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: k2frd@... Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:21:53 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage? Thanks, Gerry! Those URLs worked with Firefox although I wasn't able to secure direct access from the F&C home page via Firefox, iCab, nor Safari. I use IE (latest Mac version is only 5.2.2) as little as possible since it messes up non-MS created sites (overlaps, non-wraps). I didn't try Netscape. I really, really like #5110. It would provide the O&W early 1900s I want to portray on my layout. I think I'll give it a try. Always, Fred At 7:24 PM -0700 29/7/08, Gerry D wrote: >Internet Explorer works on his pages, Netscape and Firefox bomb. >Individual links for NYO&W are as follows: > >http://www.fandckit s.com/HOFreight/ 2080.html > >http://www.fandckit s.com/HOFreight/ 3200.html > >http://www.fandckit s.com/HOFreight/ 5110.html > >Cordially, >Gerry Time for vacation? WIN what you need. Enter Now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6762	From: erieberk	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models by Ray Wetzel

Hello Chuck, Continuing where I left off, I'll give you the listings for the Later Production. Four new road namers were added (and 5 delted) in the Straight (Ribbed) Side Hoppers and 2 new road names were added (with 3 eliminated) to the Mill Gons. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .R A I L M A S T E R . . . . . . . . . ... Later Production (with changes) -- as of November 1949 -- Straight Side (Ribbed) Hopper: SS-1 . . . Undec . . . . . __________ . . ________________ . . . . . . . SS-2 . . . Union Pacific . . . 32814- . . B/C Red w/White or Yellow Ltg. SS-3 . . . C B & Q . . . . . . 192500 . . B/C Red w/White Lettering- . . SS-4 . . . Pennsylvania. . . . 220300 . . Tuscan Red w?White Lettering . SS-5 . . . Reading . . . . . . 32080- . . Black w/White Lettering- * . . SS-6 . . . Western Maryland. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SS-7 . . . Missouri Pacific. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SS-8 . . . Lehigh Valley . . . 25632- . . B/C Red w/White Lettering. * . SS-9 . . . Great Northern. . . 60251- . . B/C Redw/White Lettering . * . Panel Side Hopper: PS-1 . . . Undec . . . . . . . _______ . . _______________ . . . . . . . PS-2 . . . Frisco (SL-SF). . . 88517 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . PS-3 . . . Missouri Pacific. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . PS-4 . . . New York Central. . 854620. . . B/C Red w/White Lettering . . PS-5 . . . Wabash- . . . . . . 36110 . . . Black w/White Lettering . . . Composite Hopper: CH-1 . . . Undec . . . . . . . _______ . . _______________ . . . . . . . CH-2 . . . Nickle Plate Road . 31290 . . . Black w/White Lettering . . . CH-3 . . . Lehigh Valley . . . 14001 . . . B/C Red w/White Lettering . . CH-4 . . . Southern- . . . . . 104670. . . Black w/White Lettering . . . CH-5 . . . AT&SF . . . . . . . . . . . . . B/C Red w/White Lettering . . To be continued, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6763	From: erieberk	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models, by Ray Wetzel

Chuck, You have it all, with this post -- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R A I L M A S T E R . . . . . . . . .. Later Production (with changes) -- as of November, 1949 -- Covered Hopper: HH-1 . . . Undec . . . . . . . ________ . . ______________ . . . . . . . HH-2 . . . National Plate Glass. . 202 . . Black w/White Lettering . . . Stock Car: SC-1 . . . Undec . . . . . . . ________ . . ______________ . . . . . . . SC-2 . . . UP (Livestock Dispatch)47035. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SC-3 . . . M-K-T (Katy). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mill Gondola: MG-1 . . . Undec . . . . . . . ________ . . ______________ . . . . . . . MG-2 . . . D&RGW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MG-3 . . . Sante Fe. . . . . . . 170970. . B/C red w/White Lettering . . MG-4 . . . Southern Pacific. . . 94250 . . B/C Red w/White Lettering . . MG-5 . . . Western Maryland. . . 50531 . . White w/Red Lettering . . . . MG-6 . . . ERIE. . . . . . . . . 15000 . . Black w/White Lettering . . . MG-7 . . . Nickle Plate Road . . . . . . . Black w/White Lettering . . . MG-8 . . . Reading . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MG-9 . . . Southern. . . . . . . 52041 . . Black w/White Lettering . . Flat Car: . . ____ . ________ ................................................. Latest Production -- Composite Gondola: . . ____ . CRR (Clinchfield R R) 51633 . . Black w/White Lettering . . * Have tri-colored heralds on car sides. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . *********** . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . END . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . That wraps it up, Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6764	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/30/2008
Subject: Re: Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage?

No problem Fred, glad to be of a help. the funny thing is they are just up the road from me and I never got one of their kits! But, I've been looking at their early DL&W boxcar; http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/3800.html and I like it! I'm located 3 miles from http://www.nps.gov/stea They are only 32 miles away. What ticks me off is that Yahoo changed something and now I can't use FireFox and get the results I was used to. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage? > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 11:21 PM > Thanks, Gerry! Those URLs worked with Firefox although I > wasn't able to secure direct access from the F&C > home page via Firefox, iCab, nor Safari. I use IE (latest > Mac version is only 5.2.2) as little as possible since it > messes up non-MS created sites (overlaps, non-wraps). I > didn't try Netscape. > > I really, really like #5110. It would provide the O&W > early 1900s I want to portray on my layout. I think I'll > give it a try. > > Always, > Fred > > At 7:24 PM -0700 29/7/08, Gerry D wrote: > >Internet Explorer works on his pages, Netscape and > Firefox bomb. > >Individual links for NYO&W are as follows: > > > >http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/2080.html > > > >http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/3200.html > > > >http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/5110.html > > > >Cordially, > >Gerry > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6765	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vin

I gotta try one of the F&Cs if for no other reason than to be able to state that I've had the experience. I understand about attractions being too close to home. I grew up not 40 miles west of Cooperstown, NY's Baseball Hall of Fame. I've visited the HOF only twice in my life whereas people who live on the other side of the oceans have visited it more than I. And you mentioned Steamtown Natl Historic Site just down the road from you. Before I moved to AZ, I lived just two hours north of Scranton, have been there three times but not since about 2000. It's #1 on my To Do list when I return to the northeast next summer on an extended visit for a wedding. In the early 90s, I was driving on I-88 past the Oneonta, NY NYC yards when I sighted a large bunch of smokestacks, steam and sand domes in the distance. Whoa! Stop the car! Long story short, wherever I was originally going and whatever I was planning to do was immediately shelved and I worked my way over to the yards to witness the grandest display of steam locomotives I had ever seen, just sitting there waiting for my camera which, for once was in the car with me. Steamtown NHS had just been established and the steam inventory was being moved to its new location in Scranton, PA. The engines were sitting in the yard waiting for the Belden Tunnel to be enlarged so they could get through. See you sometime in late May 09 at Steamtown. Always, Fred Stevens formerly of Sidney, Norwich, and Guilford, NY on the NYO&W PS - I had a LOT of trouble with the new Firefox 3 so I switched back to FF2. FF3 wouldn't even let me sign into Yahoo Groups, a bit of a problem since I own/moderate some 13 Groups. At 8:39 PM -0700 30/7/08, Gerry D wrote: >No problem Fred, glad to be of a help. >the funny thing is they are just up the road from me and I never got one of their kits! But, I've been looking at their early DL&W boxcar; >http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/3800.html and I like it! >I'm located 3 miles from http://www.nps.gov/stea >They are only 32 miles away. > >What ticks me off is that Yahoo changed something and now I can't use FireFox and get the results I was used to. > >Cordially, >Gerry >http://kitbash.ourpage.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6766	From: Rick Jones	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Re: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern

Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote: > I gotta try one of the F&Cs if for no other reason than to be able to > state that I've had the experience. > > I understand about attractions being too close to home. I grew up not > 40 miles west of Cooperstown, NY's Baseball Hall of Fame. I've > visited the HOF only twice in my life whereas people who live on the > other side of the oceans have visited it more than I. I grew up in Anaheim, CA and lived in the area for most of my life until relocating to the Houston area 6 years ago. In all that time I never once visited the mission at San Juan Capistrano. During my Navy years the ship to which I was assigned was home ported at Pearl Harbor, yet again, I never once visited the Pearl Harbor Memorial, though I saw it across the harbor every day. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ I'd explain it to you but your brains would explode.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6767	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Re: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:50:23 -0500, Rick Jones wrote: > I grew up in Anaheim, CA and lived in the area for most of my life >until relocating to the Houston area 6 years ago. In all that time I >never once visited the mission at San Juan Capistrano. During my Navy >years the ship to which I was assigned was home ported at Pearl Harbor, >yet again, I never once visited the Pearl Harbor Memorial, though I saw >it across the harbor every day. This kind of stuff is all too true. In chasing my Navy career, my wife and I have tried to get all the local stuff in our 18 or so locales, but some have eluded us. For example, we've been living in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia for thirty years and have not yet visited Nauticus and the USS WISCONSIN (but, to be fair, we've been here longer than they have <G>). But I have been down to the N&W (now N&S) coal docks in both a guided tour and alone (passing the "Do not proceed" signs). Also consider that just because you've been there once, that doesn't mean you shouldn't go again. I went to the Mariner's Museum in Newport News many years ago, but that was before they got the MONITOR artifacts. Now please convert all the above to your local rail sites . . . --.- Jerry - It isn't so good that it couldn't get better; it isn't so bad that it couldn't be worse. - Lyrics from a song written by T. Wolf and F. Landeman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6768	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Re: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern

That would be great to meet you on that trip out this way Fred. I just hope it's not in August, as that month I'm pretty busy with work at my church. Cordially, Gerry --- On Thu, 7/31/08, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: > From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> > Subject: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage? > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 11:14 AM > I gotta try one of the F&Cs if for no other reason than > to be able to state that I've had the experience. > > I understand about attractions being too close to home. I > grew up not 40 miles west of Cooperstown, NY's Baseball > Hall of Fame. I've visited the HOF only twice in my life > whereas people who live on the other side of the oceans have > visited it more than I. > > And you mentioned Steamtown Natl Historic Site just down > the road from you. Before I moved to AZ, I lived just two > hours north of Scranton, have been there three times but not > since about 2000. It's #1 on my To Do list when I return > to the northeast next summer on an extended visit for a > wedding. > > In the early 90s, I was driving on I-88 past the Oneonta, > NY NYC yards when I sighted a large bunch of smokestacks, > steam and sand domes in the distance. Whoa! Stop the car! > Long story short, wherever I was originally going and > whatever I was planning to do was immediately shelved and I > worked my way over to the yards to witness the grandest > display of steam locomotives I had ever seen, just sitting > there waiting for my camera which, for once was in the car > with me. Steamtown NHS had just been established and the > steam inventory was being moved to its new location in > Scranton, PA. The engines were sitting in the yard waiting > for the Belden Tunnel to be enlarged so they could get > through. > > See you sometime in late May 09 at Steamtown. > > Always, > Fred Stevens > formerly of Sidney, Norwich, and Guilford, NY on the > NYO&W > > PS - I had a LOT of trouble with the new Firefox 3 so I > switched back to FF2. FF3 wouldn't even let me sign into > Yahoo Groups, a bit of a problem since I own/moderate some > 13 Groups. > > At 8:39 PM -0700 30/7/08, Gerry D wrote: > >No problem Fred, glad to be of a help. > >the funny thing is they are just up the road from me > and I never got one of their kits! But, I've been > looking at their early DL&W boxcar; > >http://www.fandckits.com/HOFreight/3800.html and I like > it! > >I'm located 3 miles from http://www.nps.gov/stea > >They are only 32 miles away. > > > >What ticks me off is that Yahoo changed something and > now I can't use FireFox and get the results I was used > to. > > > >Cordially, > >Gerry > >http://kitbash.ourpage.com > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6769	From: Gerry D	Date: 7/31/2008
Subject: Re: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern

Jerry, all converted! LOL! I get to Steamtown about once in every two months. Just today I was talking with one of the fellas there on the phone. When I go there, it's usually via the "back door" and if I showed up at the front door, the Park Rangers wouldn't recognize me! Yes, in every area there are "vintage" sights to see. They have a small trolley museum right next door to Steamtown and across the valley, about five miles away, is an Anthracite Museum with a a trip down into a once operating anthracite coal mine. I relate to that as well as my father spent his life as a miner and then all the mines closed up. I also provide hosting for a local natural history museum, http://Everhart-Museum.org that was established back in 1908. As to http://www.fandckits.com/ , I dropped them an email saying some people had trouble with their web site and offered help. No answer yet. I've been pondering the idea of commercially getting into HO manufacturing, I know this is the wrong place to mention that, it being "vintage HO", but the thought just hit me that if I do, someday what ever I do now would be vintage later! Cordially, Gerry --- On Thu, 7/31/08, Jerry Prather <prather.js@...> wrote: > From: Jerry Prather <prather.js@...> > Subject: Re: Steamtown NHS WUZ -- Re: [vintageHO] Funaro & Camerlengo: Modern Vintage? > To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 6:03 PM > On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:50:23 -0500, Rick Jones wrote: > > > I grew up in Anaheim, CA and lived in the area for > most of my life > >until relocating to the Houston area 6 years ago. In > all that time I > >never once visited the mission at San Juan Capistrano. > During my Navy > >years the ship to which I was assigned was home ported > at Pearl Harbor, > >yet again, I never once visited the Pearl Harbor > Memorial, though I saw > >it across the harbor every day. > > This kind of stuff is all too true. In chasing my Navy > career, > my wife and I have tried to get all the local stuff in our > 18 or > so locales, but some have eluded us. For example, > we've been > living in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia for thirty > years > and have not yet visited Nauticus and the USS WISCONSIN > (but, to > be fair, we've been here longer than they have > <G>). But I have > been down to the N&W (now N&S) coal docks in both a > guided tour > and alone (passing the "Do not proceed" signs). > > Also consider that just because you've been there once, > that > doesn't mean you shouldn't go again. I went to the > Mariner's > Museum in Newport News many years ago, but that was before > they > got the MONITOR artifacts. > > Now please convert all the above to your local rail sites . > . . > > --.- > > > Jerry > > - > It isn't so good that it couldn't get better; it > isn't so bad that it couldn't be worse. > - Lyrics from a song written by T. Wolf and F. Landeman > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6770	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/3/2008
Subject: Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models, by Ray Wetzel

Ray and all, I have uploaded the file. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:53 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: RAILMASTER -- Utah Scale Models, by Ray Wetzel   Chuck, You have it all, with this post -- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R A I L M A S T E R . . . . . . . . .. Later Production (with changes) -- as of November, 1949 -- Covered Hopper: HH-1 . . . Undec . . . . . . . ________ . . ____________ __ . . . . . . . HH-2 . . . National Plate Glass. . 202 . . Black w/White Lettering . . . Stock Car: SC-1 . . . Undec . . . . . . . ________ . . ____________ __ . . . . . . . SC-2 . . . UP (Livestock Dispatch)47035. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SC-3 . . . M-K-T (Katy). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mill Gondola: MG-1 . . . Undec . . . . . . . ________ . . ____________ __ . . . . . . . MG-2 . . . D&RGW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MG-3 . . . Sante Fe. . . . . . . 170970. . B/C red w/White Lettering . . MG-4 . . . Southern Pacific. . . 94250 . . B/C Red w/White Lettering . . MG-5 . . . Western Maryland . . . 50531 . . White w/Red Lettering . . . . MG-6 . . . ERIE . . . . . . . . . 15000 . . Black w/White Lettering . . . MG-7 . . . Nickle Plate Road . . . . . . . Black w/White Lettering . . . MG-8 . . . Reading . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MG-9 . . . Southern. . . . . . . 52041 . . Black w/White Lettering . . Flat Car: . . ____ . ________ ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... . Latest Production -- Composite Gondola: . . ____ . CRR (Clinchfield R R) 51633 . . Black w/White Lettering . . * Have tri-colored heralds on car sides. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . *********** . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . END . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . That wraps it up, Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6771	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/4/2008
Subject: Mystery passenger cars

Attachments : Got a package today of some great old heavyweight cars from another list member to whom I owe a great debt. There are a few cars though that are a bit of a puzzle. The first one here I believe is a JC NYC Coach No. HO12, because it matches pretty well my International NYC single window coach, and the construction matches my other JC car, except this one has wooden ends. The second picture is two Walthers baggage cars. Construction and details are identical, positively early Walthers (folded under sides, lip at the top, identical cast Walthers ends, came in remarked 6600 series boxes). The top one, I am assuming is a number 6620 (7620?), but what is the bottom one? The third and fourth pictures are two sides of the same car, again, Walthers 6600/7600 series construction, but a, at least to me, VERY unusual window arrangement. Any ideas? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6772	From: erieberk	Date: 8/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars

Hi Don, When I tried to open your file, I received a message in the File Transfer Status saying: Invalid zip file structure, no extraction attempted for JCCoach.zip (08.18.32). The file box did open however, but there was just the heading off to the left -- JCCoach -- with no icons to open; just a blank box. The problem might be on your end or it might be on my end, I don't know. Maybe someone else will have more luck opening it. Ray W. BTW, For the Silver Sides # H) 12, the brochure sheet is showing a 70' monitor roof coach showing a window at each end of the car side separate from the seating windows. There are 20 single windows between these two end windows. JC does describe it as a New York Central coach. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Got a package today of some great old heavyweight cars from another list > member to whom I owe a great debt. There are a few cars though that are a > bit of a puzzle. The first one here I believe is a JC NYC Coach No. HO12, > because it matches pretty well my International NYC single window coach, and > the construction matches my other JC car, except this one has wooden ends. > > The second picture is two Walthers baggage cars. Construction and details > are identical, positively early Walthers (folded under sides, lip at the > top, identical cast Walthers ends, came in remarked 6600 series boxes). The > top one, I am assuming is a number 6620 (7620?), but what is the bottom one? > > The third and fourth pictures are two sides of the same car, again, Walthers > 6600/7600 series construction, but a, at least to me, VERY unusual window > arrangement. > > Any ideas? > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6773	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars

I got the pictures back from the group fine, I suspect your ISP is compressing them. As far as your description of the window layout etc., yes, that's exactly what I have. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:42 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery passenger cars > Hi Don, When I tried to open your file, I received a message in the > File Transfer Status saying: Invalid zip file structure, no > extraction attempted for JCCoach.zip (08.18.32). The file box did > open however, but there was just the heading off to the left -- > JCCoach -- with no icons to open; just a blank box. The problem > might be on your end or it might be on my end, I don't know. Maybe > someone else will have more luck opening it. Ray W. > > BTW, For the Silver Sides # H) 12, the brochure sheet is showing a > 70' monitor roof coach showing a window at each end of the car side > separate from the seating windows. There are 20 single windows > between these two end windows. JC does describe it as a New York > Central coach. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> Got a package today of some great old heavyweight cars from another > list >> member to whom I owe a great debt. There are a few cars though > that are a >> bit of a puzzle. The first one here I believe is a JC NYC Coach > No. HO12, >> because it matches pretty well my International NYC single window > coach, and >> the construction matches my other JC car, except this one has > wooden ends. >> >> The second picture is two Walthers baggage cars. Construction and > details >> are identical, positively early Walthers (folded under sides, lip > at the >> top, identical cast Walthers ends, came in remarked 6600 series > boxes). The >> top one, I am assuming is a number 6620 (7620?), but what is the > bottom one? >> >> The third and fourth pictures are two sides of the same car, again, > Walthers >> 6600/7600 series construction, but a, at least to me, VERY unusual > window >> arrangement. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Don >> >> Don Dellmann >> don.dellmann@... >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ >> Owner >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6774	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/5/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars

I loaded all 4 photos into an album "a minor mystery" http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/3bc2 Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:42 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery passenger cars > Hi Don, When I tried to open your file, I received a message in the > File Transfer Status saying: Invalid zip file structure, no > extraction attempted for JCCoach.zip (08.18.32). The file box did > open however, but there was just the heading off to the left -- > JCCoach -- with no icons to open; just a blank box. The problem > might be on your end or it might be on my end, I don't know. Maybe > someone else will have more luck opening it. Ray W. > > BTW, For the Silver Sides # H) 12, the brochure sheet is showing a > 70' monitor roof coach showing a window at each end of the car side > separate from the seating windows. There are 20 single windows > between these two end windows. JC does describe it as a New York > Central coach. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> Got a package today of some great old heavyweight cars from another > list >> member to whom I owe a great debt. There are a few cars though > that are a >> bit of a puzzle. The first one here I believe is a JC NYC Coach > No. HO12, >> because it matches pretty well my International NYC single window > coach, and >> the construction matches my other JC car, except this one has > wooden ends. >> >> The second picture is two Walthers baggage cars. Construction and > details >> are identical, positively early Walthers (folded under sides, lip > at the >> top, identical cast Walthers ends, came in remarked 6600 series > boxes). The >> top one, I am assuming is a number 6620 (7620?), but what is the > bottom one? >> >> The third and fourth pictures are two sides of the same car, again, > Walthers >> 6600/7600 series construction, but a, at least to me, VERY unusual > window >> arrangement. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Don >> >> Don Dellmann >> don.dellmann@... >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ >> Owner >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6775	From: erieberk	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars

Don, Your album of these 3 cars and the link leading right to them helped immensely. As I previously mentioned, the first car is a JC Silver Sides as it matches the manufacturer's photo identically. You're right, in figuring the top car in the 2nd shot is a Walthers 7820 or 6620, (depending on it's roof material), both the same car. The bottom car in the same 2nd shot is a Walthers 7621 -- cataloged as a Baggage, but lettered as Baggage and Railway Express Agency. Good you posted both sides of the 3rd car, as they're both different and the first side had me puzzled. The car does look short to me, maybe because it has 4-wheel trucks, but I find this to identically match the window configuration for Walthers 3614 80' 13 Room Pullman (1946 Catalog) and also Walthers 7606 80' 13 Room Pullman (1949 & 1950 Catalogs). Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I loaded all 4 photos into an album "a minor mystery" > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/3bc2 > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:42 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery passenger cars > > > > Hi Don, When I tried to open your file, I received a message in the > > File Transfer Status saying: Invalid zip file structure, no > > extraction attempted for JCCoach.zip (08.18.32). The file box did > > open however, but there was just the heading off to the left -- > > JCCoach -- with no icons to open; just a blank box. The problem > > might be on your end or it might be on my end, I don't know. Maybe > > someone else will have more luck opening it. Ray W. > > > > BTW, For the Silver Sides # H) 12, the brochure sheet is showing a > > 70' monitor roof coach showing a window at each end of the car side > > separate from the seating windows. There are 20 single windows > > between these two end windows. JC does describe it as a New York > > Central coach. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > > wrote: > >> > >> Got a package today of some great old heavyweight cars from another > > list > >> member to whom I owe a great debt. There are a few cars though > > that are a > >> bit of a puzzle. The first one here I believe is a JC NYC Coach > > No. HO12, > >> because it matches pretty well my International NYC single window > > coach, and > >> the construction matches my other JC car, except this one has > > wooden ends. > >> > >> The second picture is two Walthers baggage cars. Construction and > > details > >> are identical, positively early Walthers (folded under sides, lip > > at the > >> top, identical cast Walthers ends, came in remarked 6600 series > > boxes). The > >> top one, I am assuming is a number 6620 (7620?), but what is the > > bottom one? > >> > >> The third and fourth pictures are two sides of the same car, again, > > Walthers > >> 6600/7600 series construction, but a, at least to me, VERY unusual > > window > >> arrangement. > >> > >> Any ideas? > >> > >> Don > >> > >> Don Dellmann > >> don.dellmann@ > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > >> Owner > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6776	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery passenger cars

Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:53 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery passenger cars > Don, Your album of these 3 cars and the link leading right to them > helped immensely. As I previously mentioned, the first car is a JC > Silver Sides as it matches the manufacturer's photo identically. > You're right, in figuring the top car in the 2nd shot is a Walthers > 7820 or 6620, (depending on it's roof material), both the same car. > The bottom car in the same 2nd shot is a Walthers 7621 -- cataloged > as a Baggage, but lettered as Baggage and Railway Express Agency. > Good you posted both sides of the 3rd car, as they're both different > and the first side had me puzzled. The car does look short to me, > maybe because it has 4-wheel trucks, but I find this to identically > match the window configuration for Walthers 3614 80' 13 Room Pullman > (1946 Catalog) and also Walthers 7606 80' 13 Room Pullman (1949 & > 1950 Catalogs). Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> I loaded all 4 photos into an album "a minor mystery" >> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/3bc2 >> >> Don >> >> Don Dellmann >> don.dellmann@... >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ >> Owner >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:42 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery passenger cars >> >> >> > Hi Don, When I tried to open your file, I received a message in > the >> > File Transfer Status saying: Invalid zip file structure, no >> > extraction attempted for JCCoach.zip (08.18.32). The file box > did >> > open however, but there was just the heading off to the left -- >> > JCCoach -- with no icons to open; just a blank box. The problem >> > might be on your end or it might be on my end, I don't know. > Maybe >> > someone else will have more luck opening it. Ray W. >> > >> > BTW, For the Silver Sides # H) 12, the brochure sheet is showing > a >> > 70' monitor roof coach showing a window at each end of the car > side >> > separate from the seating windows. There are 20 single windows >> > between these two end windows. JC does describe it as a New York >> > Central coach. >> > >> > >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Got a package today of some great old heavyweight cars from > another >> > list >> >> member to whom I owe a great debt. There are a few cars though >> > that are a >> >> bit of a puzzle. The first one here I believe is a JC NYC Coach >> > No. HO12, >> >> because it matches pretty well my International NYC single > window >> > coach, and >> >> the construction matches my other JC car, except this one has >> > wooden ends. >> >> >> >> The second picture is two Walthers baggage cars. Construction > and >> > details >> >> are identical, positively early Walthers (folded under sides, > lip >> > at the >> >> top, identical cast Walthers ends, came in remarked 6600 series >> > boxes). The >> >> top one, I am assuming is a number 6620 (7620?), but what is the >> > bottom one? >> >> >> >> The third and fourth pictures are two sides of the same car, > again, >> > Walthers >> >> 6600/7600 series construction, but a, at least to me, VERY > unusual >> > window >> >> arrangement. >> >> >> >> Any ideas? >> >> >> >> Don >> >> >> >> Don Dellmann >> >> don.dellmann@ >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ >> >> Owner >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6777	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: introduce myself

Hi all, Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim Heckard. I live in a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I became a member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I was a member of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History (HOSC&H) for over 15 years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that were made between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can back it up with a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of 157 steam engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one being different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO companies in that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I have names in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, Sampson, FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside Specialties, GARCO (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris Matucci, Knapp plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part of a set in a box. I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. If anyone has a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact through the group or off line at jimheck@... Regards Jim Heckard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6778	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself

Welcome, Jim.   You will find a happy home here.   These folks have plenty of spirit and knowledge(as well as lots of toys...). They're helpful, too.   Enjoy!   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut - located in the geographic center of NY State) --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> Subject: [vintageHO] introduce myself To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 9:56 PM Hi all, Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim Heckard. I live in a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I became a member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I was a member of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History (HOSC&H) for over 15 years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that were made between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can back it up with a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of 157 steam engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one being different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO companies in that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I have names in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, Sampson, FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside Specialties, GARCO (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris Matucci, Knapp plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part of a set in a box. I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. If anyone has a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact through the group or off line at jimheck@... Regards Jim Heckard ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6779	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself

As I am sure you already know..   Welcome Jim!   I have seen pictures of your collection and it is quite a collection indeed! Makes mine look like a pile of junk..   I know of only one other collector whose personal collection pictures I have seen, that made me gaze with equal amazement.. Your colection at least has the little note cards under each, with the make, model and year of your engine... So, I can at least know what it is that I am looking at as i am looking at it... Quite impressive indeed!   Sean --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> Subject: [vintageHO] introduce myself To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 9:56 PM Hi all, Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim Heckard. I live in a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I became a member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I was a member of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History (HOSC&H) for over 15 years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that were made between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can back it up with a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of 157 steam engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one being different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO companies in that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I have names in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, Sampson, FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside Specialties, GARCO (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris Matucci, Knapp plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part of a set in a box. I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. If anyone has a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact through the group or off line at jimheck@losch. net Regards Jim Heckard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6780	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/6/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:56 PM Subject: [vintageHO] introduce myself > Hi all, > Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim Heckard. I live in > a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I became a > member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. > I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I was a member > of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History (HOSC&H) for over 15 > years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that were made > between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can back it up with > a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of 157 steam > engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one being > different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO companies in > that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I have names > in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, Sampson, > FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside Specialties, GARCO > (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris Matucci, Knapp > plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part of a set in > a box. > I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. If anyone has > a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact through the > group or off line at jimheck@... Regards Jim Heckard As listowner and moderator, I want to officially say welcome, we're glad to have you. One thing I think you will notice here is that, unlike other collector groups, our emphasis is on not only collecting vintage HO, but running it on the layout, the way it was meant to be run. We're not purists, so please don't get excited if you see vintage HO being upgraded with different trucks, couplers or even power, or if a piece is modified to fit a member's personal operating scheme. We're just here to enjoy model railroading the way it used to be, when the measure of a modeler was what he built and ran, unlike today where it seems the measure of a modeler is the credit limit on his visa card. Again, welcome aboard, I hope you enjoy the ride. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6781	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself

Welcome aboard Jim,  You'll fit right in here. --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> Subject: [vintageHO] introduce myself To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 6:56 PM Hi all, Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim Heckard. I live in a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I became a member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I was a member of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History (HOSC&H) for over 15 years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that were made between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can back it up with a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of 157 steam engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one being different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO companies in that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I have names in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, Sampson, FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside Specialties, GARCO (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris Matucci, Knapp plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part of a set in a box. I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. If anyone has a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact through the group or off line at jimheck@losch. net Regards Jim Heckard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6782	From: erieberk	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself

Hello Jim, Welcome aboard. You've found a home! Nice to see you have a good collection. You'll find we're all on the same track here (pun intended), with just appreciating the model trains as we've remembered them. I too enjoyed membership in Spanagel's H0 Scale Collectors & History - SIG, and enjoyed helping Dave in his publishing of his Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains. Varney's a big topic here, but then so are many others. I'm sure you'll fit right in, glad to have you and looking forward to your comments. Regards, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Hi all, > Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim Heckard. I live in > a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I became a > member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. > I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I was a member > of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History (HOSC&H) for over 15 > years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that were made > between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can back it up with > a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of 157 steam > engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one being > different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO companies in > that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I have names > in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, Sampson, > FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside Specialties, GARCO > (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris Matucci, Knapp > plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part of a set in > a box. > I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. If anyone has > a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact through the > group or off line at jimheck@... Regards Jim Heckard >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6783	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Thanks

Thank You for the welcome. I hope I can be a good and helpful member. Special to Don D. Appreciate your comments as to the sites purpose. While I am a "purist" as to my collection I know HO covers a vast area. All my collection items are rebuilt to as original as can be. Kind of fanactical when it comes to repairing and only using original parts where possible. I try not to change the way the vintage item runs or looks. If it ran poor when made, no improvements made. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate ALL aspects of HO model railroading. I use to run trains all the time. Years ago I had a fully functional 10' x 11' layout with 4 main line tracks and fully scenicked. We decided to build a new home. I soon found out I had made the layout to permanent and had to leave it. I left it just as it was with some trains, buildings, scenery, transformers plus a sound system. I could not destroy what I had built. Boy talk about poor planning. I to like to create "project" engines, especially to rebuild and complete items others have started. I like doing this as much as the collecting because I can "go wild". I learn a lot by doing but can learn so much more by hearing from others, no matter what area that may be in. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6784	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself

Welcome, a great new member indeed. Charlie W. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] introduce myself > Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 01:56:41 -0000 > > > Hi all, > Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim Heckard. I live in > a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I became a > member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. > I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I was a member > of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History (HOSC&H) for over 15 > years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that were made > between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can back it up with > a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of 157 steam > engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one being > different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO companies in > that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I have names > in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, Sampson, > FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside Specialties, GARCO > (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris Matucci, Knapp > plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part of a set in > a box. > I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. If anyone has > a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact through the > group or off line at jimheck@... Regards Jim Heckard > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6785	From: erieberk	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production

Hello Chuck, I'm gonna try to give you as much of the Ulrich line by Walthers that I can right now, but first I need to make some corrections to the original Ulrich spread sheet. For starters, the kit # 105 Composite Gondola line are cataloged as "CG" not "GG," and then in that same group it appears that the CG-3 CRI&P Composite Gon was never originally made by Ulrich. That catalog slot (CG-3) was apparently left blank. Again, in this same group, theCG-8 CNJ was not originally made by Ulrich; both of these can be removed. My fault for not catching this sooner, aas well as the next few errors. In addition to my notes, I had used Dave Spanagel's Ulrich list as published in "The Reporting Mark" (from the H0SC&H-SIG) to help save time, which has some mistakes. In the Kit # 109 series, both the SH-7 D&H and SH-8 CB&Q should be removed, as they are not original Ulrich. In the Kit # 113 series, both the OH-8 L&N and OH-9 MP should be removed as they were not original Ulrich. In the Kit # 115 series, both the GS-8 NJZ and GS-9 C&S should be removed as they were not original Ulrich. In this same series, the both GS-4 GN cars are Fire Red. In the Offset Side Triple Hopper series, both the TH-9 B&LE and TH-10 N&W should be removed as they're not original Ulrich. Still looking other stuff over as possibly questionable, but that's it for now. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6786	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production

Hi Ray, The roadnames that were not original Ulrich, were Walthers roadnames?  Would a note work by each one, that way we would have one list?  Or should we remove then and make a follow up list with the Walthers roadnames?   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:55 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Ulrich Production   Hello Chuck, I'm gonna try to give you as much of the Ulrich line by Walthers that I can right now, but first I need to make some corrections to the original Ulrich spread sheet. For starters, the kit # 105 Composite Gondola line are cataloged as "CG" not "GG," and then in that same group it appears that the CG-3 CRI&P Composite Gon was never originally made by Ulrich. That catalog slot (CG-3) was apparently left blank. Again, in this same group, theCG-8 CNJ was not originally made by Ulrich; both of these can be removed. My fault for not catching this sooner, aas well as the next few errors. In addition to my notes, I had used Dave Spanagel's Ulrich list as published in "The Reporting Mark" (from the H0SC&H-SIG) to help save time, which has some mistakes. In the Kit # 109 series, both the SH-7 D&H and SH-8 CB&Q should be removed, as they are not original Ulrich. In the Kit # 113 series, both the OH-8 L&N and OH-9 MP should be removed as they were not original Ulrich. In the Kit # 115 series, both the GS-8 NJZ and GS-9 C&S should be removed as they were not original Ulrich. In this same series, the both GS-4 GN cars are Fire Red. In the Offset Side Triple Hopper series, both the TH-9 B&LE and TH-10 N&W should be removed as they're not original Ulrich. Still looking other stuff over as possibly questionable, but that's it for now. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6787	From: rcjge	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Varney Super Consolie parts sought?

Gentlemen: I was fortunate to recently acquire a Varney Super Consolie and my Pal Ray Marinaccio is handling the restoration. He tells me I need to find the following: #1625 compressor and #1632 marker light (and lenses) The numbers are I believe the Yardbird Classic Trains part numbers. I'd like to acquire originals if possible. Does anyone have these pieces that would be prepared to sell them? In the future I hope to acquire an appropriate Vandy Tender for this lovely beast! Thanks for any help. I'll post some pics when ray is done... Pax, Gareth

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6788	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/7/2008
Subject: Varney Super Consolidation

Gareth, I believe you will be able to find the parts you want but I am hoping that when you get your engine back you will be running it. I think you will like how well they run. All the Varney Super engines, with the powerful and reliable V-2 motor, were well engineered pieces. Even though 60 years old they are smooth running with the equalized drivers and valve gear that worked nice. I know Ray M will make it hum. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6789	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolie parts sought?

Hi Gareth, Dan at Yardbird re casts a lot of the original parts, so for all means and purposes, they are basically original parts...........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6790	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation

On the Varney Super, I was hoping a few of you experts could clear something up for me.   Hi guys,   Thought I might chime in on this one..   I have three consols..   One is very early, with the diecast chassis and sprung drivers and with what apears to be a very early Varney motor..Is it a Super, even though it does not have the rare V2 motor as my second Consol does?    My third consol has just the basis unsprung diecast chassis, so I know it is not the super..   Any clarification would help.   Thanks, Sean --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Super Consolidation To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 12:08 AM Gareth, I believe you will be able to find the parts you want but I am hoping that when you get your engine back you will be running it. I think you will like how well they run. All the Varney Super engines, with the powerful and reliable V-2 motor, were well engineered pieces. Even though 60 years old they are smooth running with the equalized drivers and valve gear that worked nice. I know Ray M will make it hum. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6791	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation

Hi Sean, By this, I assume one of your Consols is a "Super" with the V-2 motor. The very early (pre-War) one is not considered as a "Super" Varney, this engineering design with the cast frame and leaf springs, with the V-1 motor was standard for Varney pre-War engines. Its only the Varney post-War V-3 motored engines with the two-piece riveted brass frame that were marketed as the Varney Super engines. Right, your channel-brass-framed Consol with the DC-71 Pitman motor is just the Standard post-War design, but even these can be made to run great, with little effort. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > On the Varney Super, I was hoping a few of you experts could clear something up for me. >   > Hi guys, >   > Thought I might chime in on this one.. >   > I have three consols.. >   > One is very early, with the diecast chassis and sprung drivers and with what apears to be a very early Varney motor..Is it a Super, even though it does not have the rare V2 motor as my second Consol does?  >   > My third consol has just the basis unsprung diecast chassis, so I know it is not the super.. >   > Any clarification would help. >   > Thanks, > Sean > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Super Consolidation > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 12:08 AM > > > > > > > Gareth, > I believe you will be able to find the parts you want but I am > hoping that when you get your engine back you will be running it. I > think you will like how well they run. All the Varney Super engines, > with the powerful and reliable V-2 motor, were well engineered pieces. > Even though 60 years old they are smooth running with the equalized > drivers and valve gear that worked nice. > I know Ray M will make it hum. Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6792	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production

Chuck, Yes, these roadnames that I stated were not original Ulrich are Walthers. I think it best if we list them under a separate Walthers/Ulrich production sheet rather than just making a notation. There will be more coming, and although Walthers didn't produce all that many other ones, we do need to make a separate listing for all the ones they made -- including the earlier (Ulrich) roadnames that they carried over -- as there needs to be shown the complete catalog numbers changing of Walthers designations of these accompanied with the corresponding original Ulrich catalog numbers. At this time, I'll make a few extra comments as to what year the Walthers cars were introduced. This info is especially important as some Walthers cars replaced some original Ulrich, with Walthers using the same catalog number -- so these changes need to be pointed out to avoid confusion. I'll try to get more to you soon. Yes, please remove the roadnames I've indicated, from the original Ulrich list, as they're Walthers. Thanks, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > The roadnames that were not original Ulrich, were Walthers roadnames? Would > a note work by each one, that way we would have one list? Or should we > remove then and make a follow up list with the Walthers roadnames? > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:55 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Ulrich Production > > > > Hello Chuck, I'm gonna try to give you as much of the Ulrich line by > Walthers that I can right now, but first I need to make some > corrections to the original Ulrich spread sheet. For starters, the > kit # 105 Composite Gondola line are cataloged as "CG" not "GG," and > then in that same group it appears that the CG-3 CRI&P Composite Gon > was never originally made by Ulrich. That catalog slot (CG-3) was > apparently left blank. Again, in this same group, theCG-8 CNJ was > not originally made by Ulrich; both of these can be removed. My > fault for not catching this sooner, aas well as the next few errors. > In addition to my notes, I had used Dave Spanagel's Ulrich list as > published in "The Reporting Mark" (from the H0SC&H-SIG) to help save > time, which has some mistakes. > > In the Kit # 109 series, both the SH-7 D&H and SH-8 CB&Q should be > removed, as they are not original Ulrich. > > In the Kit # 113 series, both the OH-8 L&N and OH-9 MP should be > removed as they were not original Ulrich. > > In the Kit # 115 series, both the GS-8 NJZ and GS-9 C&S should be > removed as they were not original Ulrich. In this same series, the > both GS-4 GN cars are Fire Red. > > In the Offset Side Triple Hopper series, both the TH-9 B&LE and TH- 10 > N&W should be removed as they're not original Ulrich. > > Still looking other stuff over as possibly questionable, but that's > it for now. Ray Wetzel >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6793	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation

Thanks guys..   Actually, my third has a solid cast chassis that does not apear to be sprung. The motor is much newer than the one on the (prewar) sprung cast chassis engine I have as well..   kool..   Thanks, Sean   --- On Fri, 8/8/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk <erieberk@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Super Consolidation To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 10:15 AM Hi Sean, By this, I assume one of your Consols is a "Super" with the V-2 motor. The very early (pre-War) one is not considered as a "Super" Varney, this engineering design with the cast frame and leaf springs, with the V-1 motor was standard for Varney pre-War engines. Its only the Varney post-War V-3 motored engines with the two-piece riveted brass frame that were marketed as the Varney Super engines. Right, your channel-brass- framed Consol with the DC-71 Pitman motor is just the Standard post-War design, but even these can be made to run great, with little effort. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > On the Varney Super, I was hoping a few of you experts could clear something up for me. >   > Hi guys, >   > Thought I might chime in on this one.. >   > I have three consols.. >   > One is very early, with the diecast chassis and sprung drivers and with what apears to be a very early Varney motor..Is it a Super, even though it does not have the rare V2 motor as my second Consol does?  >   > My third consol has just the basis unsprung diecast chassis, so I know it is not the super.. >   > Any clarification would help. >   > Thanks, > Sean > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@. ..> wrote: > > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@. ..> > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Super Consolidation > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 12:08 AM > > > > > > > Gareth, > I believe you will be able to find the parts you want but I am > hoping that when you get your engine back you will be running it. I > think you will like how well they run. All the Varney Super engines, > with the powerful and reliable V-2 motor, were well engineered pieces. > Even though 60 years old they are smooth running with the equalized > drivers and valve gear that worked nice. > I know Ray M will make it hum. Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6794	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation

Okay, then you have the Varney Kit # 2721K, produced between 1947 and 1957 (or the # 2127K that was produced between 1957 and 1963, depending on if it originally came with a tender). This engine had the cast unsprung frame with the Pittman DC-71 motor (economy valve gear and one-piece side rods) . Does yours have the # 2704K plastic long-distance tender? -- many did. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Thanks guys.. >   > Actually, my third has a solid cast chassis that does not apear to be sprung. The motor is much newer than the one on the (prewar) sprung cast chassis engine I have as well..   > kool.. >   > Thanks, > Sean >   > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: > > From: erieberk <erieberk@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Super Consolidation > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 10:15 AM > > > > > > > Hi Sean, By this, I assume one of your Consols is a "Super" with the > V-2 motor. The very early (pre-War) one is not considered as > a "Super" Varney, this engineering design with the cast frame and > leaf springs, with the V-1 motor was standard for Varney pre-War > engines. Its only the Varney post-War V-3 motored engines with the > two-piece riveted brass frame that were marketed as the Varney Super > engines. Right, your channel-brass- framed Consol with the DC-71 > Pitman motor is just the Standard post-War design, but even these can > be made to run great, with little effort. Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > wrote: > > > > On the Varney Super, I was hoping a few of you experts could clear > something up for me. > >   > > Hi guys, > >   > > Thought I might chime in on this one.. > >   > > I have three consols.. > >   > > One is very early, with the diecast chassis and sprung drivers and > with what apears to be a very early Varney motor..Is it a Super, even > though it does not have the rare V2 motor as my second Consol does?  > >   > > My third consol has just the basis unsprung diecast chassis, so I > know it is not the super.. > >   > > Any clarification would help. > >   > > Thanks, > > Sean > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> wrote: > > > > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Super Consolidation > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 12:08 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gareth, > > I believe you will be able to find the parts you want but I am > > hoping that when you get your engine back you will be running it. I > > think you will like how well they run. All the Varney Super > engines, > > with the powerful and reliable V-2 motor, were well engineered > pieces. > > Even though 60 years old they are smooth running with the equalized > > drivers and valve gear that worked nice. > > I know Ray M will make it hum. Jim H > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6795	From: rcjge	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation

Hey Guys: According to the HOSeeker parts blow-up my Sprung chassis, equalized drivers and V2 is a "Super" not only a V3. -Gareth --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Okay, then you have the Varney Kit # 2721K, produced between 1947 and > 1957 (or the # 2127K that was produced between 1957 and 1963, > depending on if it originally came with a tender). This engine had > the cast unsprung frame with the Pittman DC-71 motor (economy valve > gear and one-piece side rods) . Does yours have the # 2704K plastic > long-distance tender? -- many did. Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@> > wrote: > > > > Thanks guys.. > > > > Actually, my third has a solid cast chassis that does not apear to > be sprung. The motor is much newer than the one on the (prewar) > sprung cast chassis engine I have as well.. > > kool.. > > > > Thanks, > > Sean > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, erieberk <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > From: erieberk <erieberk@> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Super Consolidation > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 10:15 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sean, By this, I assume one of your Consols is a "Super" with > the > > V-2 motor. The very early (pre-War) one is not considered as > > a "Super" Varney, this engineering design with the cast frame and > > leaf springs, with the V-1 motor was standard for Varney pre-War > > engines. Its only the Varney post-War V-3 motored engines with the > > two-piece riveted brass frame that were marketed as the Varney > Super > > engines. Right, your channel-brass- framed Consol with the DC-71 > > Pitman motor is just the Standard post-War design, but even these > can > > be made to run great, with little effort. Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > > wrote: > > > > > > On the Varney Super, I was hoping a few of you experts could > clear > > something up for me. > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > Thought I might chime in on this one.. > > > > > > I have three consols.. > > > > > > One is very early, with the diecast chassis and sprung drivers > and > > with what apears to be a very early Varney motor..Is it a Super, > even > > though it does not have the rare V2 motor as my second Consol > does? > > > > > > My third consol has just the basis unsprung diecast chassis, so I > > know it is not the super.. > > > > > > Any clarification would help. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Sean > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Super Consolidation > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 12:08 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gareth, > > > I believe you will be able to find the parts you want but I am > > > hoping that when you get your engine back you will be running it. > I > > > think you will like how well they run. All the Varney Super > > engines, > > > with the powerful and reliable V-2 motor, were well engineered > > pieces. > > > Even though 60 years old they are smooth running with the > equalized > > > drivers and valve gear that worked nice. > > > I know Ray M will make it hum. Jim H > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6796	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Varney Super Consolidation

Sean The differences between pre-war and post-war Super Consolidation are these : Pre War Has a cast frame. The frame is made to accept the Varney pre war 6 volt V-1 motor. There is a place on top of the frame where a screw allows you to attach motor. These frames were made to only accept Varney V-1 motor. Many poor castings disintegrated. The ungeared drivers had a large bearing block (two halves) on them that had copper V shaped leaf "springs" that sat in the frame under the bearing block letting drivers flex. The geared driver had a small set of bearing blocks (two halves that didn't move) but fit in the frame. You were suppose to make sure you did not switch either the bearing block halves or the 2 little halves around as they were to be already mated. Don't know how much that mattered. If today you had to replace a disintegrating half it still works for me. Post war (super) It was a brass frame separated by brass roller shaped spacers that the drivers slide into. The drivers were equalized by a wire that ran up and over one of these brass roller shaped spacers and then under the next set of drivers the entire length of the frame. One end of this wire was attached to the front end of the frame and the other end at the back had a spring added and then attached at the frame, both sides. This allowed the drivers to move and be equalized. All types of Varney's Super engines were like this. Finally it used the V-2 12 volt motor. The bottom half of the geared end of the enclosed motor (I like to call it the first can motor) came off to fit over the geared driver. The third and last Varney Consolidation had a rigid brass frame that the drivers turned in. It had an open frame motor. Hope I got this all right. Let me know if you need more clarity. I read this three times hoping I made no mistakes. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6797	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Types of Varney motors

Varney V-1 6 volt large "horse shoe" type open frame. Used on Pre War Varney steam engines only Varney V-2 12 volt completely enclosed (maybe could be called can motor). Used in all Super post war Varney Steam Engines Varney V-3 12 volt Very similar to Varney V-2. Had an enclosed housing but drive shaft/gear was exposed. This design was mainly created for diesels but could be used elsewhere. Varney V-4 A misnomer. It was a 12 volt open frame motor used on Economy (rigid frame) steam engines and Diesels. Could be Pitman or Japanese made. * I'm sure Ray just hit the 3 key instead of the 2 by mistake when typing

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6798	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: must add reason for V-2

I forgot to add to my Varney Emails why the Varney V-2 motor was created and used on the Varney post war Super steam engines. The end cap on the drive end could be removed to be placed over the geared axle. When re assembled this allowed the motor and the geared axle to "float" (equilize) as one unit with the other axles. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6799	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation

Hi Gareth, I'm not sure I follow you exactly. If you have a sprung chassis made of two brass pieces assembled with "rivets," (not a cast sprung chassis), and your drivers are equalized via two lengthwise lengths of spring (piano) wire down the length of this chassis (not equalized via individual leaf springs), then of course you must have a V-2 motor -- and this is considered a Varney "Super" mechanism, as most of us realize. This is not in addition to a V-3 as also being a motor for a Super mechanism, as you are seeming to say. The V-3 motor is not (cannot) to be used with the Super mechanism. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <rcjge@...> wrote: > > Hey Guys: > > According to the HOSeeker parts blow-up my Sprung chassis, equalized > drivers and V2 is a "Super" not only a V3. > > -Gareth > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Okay, then you have the Varney Kit # 2721K, produced between 1947 and > > 1957 (or the # 2127K that was produced between 1957 and 1963, > > depending on if it originally came with a tender). This engine had > > the cast unsprung frame with the Pittman DC-71 motor (economy valve > > gear and one-piece side rods) . Does yours have the # 2704K plastic > > long-distance tender? -- many did. Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Thanks guys.. > > > > > > Actually, my third has a solid cast chassis that does not apear to > > be sprung. The motor is much newer than the one on the (prewar) > > sprung cast chassis engine I have as well.. > > > kool.. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, erieberk <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > From: erieberk <erieberk@> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Super Consolidation > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 10:15 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sean, By this, I assume one of your Consols is a "Super" with > > the > > > V-2 motor. The very early (pre-War) one is not considered as > > > a "Super" Varney, this engineering design with the cast frame and > > > leaf springs, with the V-1 motor was standard for Varney pre- War > > > engines. Its only the Varney post-War V-3 motored engines with the > > > two-piece riveted brass frame that were marketed as the Varney > > Super > > > engines. Right, your channel-brass- framed Consol with the DC- 71 > > > Pitman motor is just the Standard post-War design, but even these > > can > > > be made to run great, with little effort. Ray W. > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On the Varney Super, I was hoping a few of you experts could > > clear > > > something up for me. > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > Thought I might chime in on this one.. > > > > > > > > I have three consols.. > > > > > > > > One is very early, with the diecast chassis and sprung drivers > > and > > > with what apears to be a very early Varney motor..Is it a Super, > > even > > > though it does not have the rare V2 motor as my second Consol > > does? > > > > > > > > My third consol has just the basis unsprung diecast chassis, so I > > > know it is not the super.. > > > > > > > > Any clarification would help. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Super Consolidation > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 12:08 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gareth, > > > > I believe you will be able to find the parts you want but I am > > > > hoping that when you get your engine back you will be running it. > > I > > > > think you will like how well they run. All the Varney Super > > > engines, > > > > with the powerful and reliable V-2 motor, were well engineered > > > pieces. > > > > Even though 60 years old they are smooth running with the > > equalized > > > > drivers and valve gear that worked nice. > > > > I know Ray M will make it hum. Jim H > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6800	From: rcjge	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation

Nope, I misunderstood an earlier post. I'm clear now. Thanks for the insights, always good to learn! :-) -Gareth --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hi Gareth, I'm not sure I follow you exactly. If you have a sprung > chassis made of two brass pieces assembled with "rivets," (not a cast > sprung chassis), and your drivers are equalized via two lengthwise > lengths of spring (piano) wire down the length of this chassis (not > equalized via individual leaf springs), then of course you must have > a V-2 motor -- and this is considered a Varney "Super" mechanism, as > most of us realize. This is not in addition to a V-3 as also being a > motor for a Super mechanism, as you are seeming to say. The V-3 > motor is not (cannot) to be used with the Super mechanism. Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <rcjge@> wrote: > > > > Hey Guys: > > > > According to the HOSeeker parts blow-up my Sprung chassis, equalized > > drivers and V2 is a "Super" not only a V3. > > > > -Gareth > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > Okay, then you have the Varney Kit # 2721K, produced between 1947 > and > > > 1957 (or the # 2127K that was produced between 1957 and 1963, > > > depending on if it originally came with a tender). This engine > had > > > the cast unsprung frame with the Pittman DC-71 motor (economy > valve > > > gear and one-piece side rods) . Does yours have the # 2704K > plastic > > > long-distance tender? -- many did. Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks guys.. > > > > > > > > Actually, my third has a solid cast chassis that does not apear > to > > > be sprung. The motor is much newer than the one on the (prewar) > > > sprung cast chassis engine I have as well.. > > > > kool.. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, erieberk <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > From: erieberk <erieberk@> > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Super Consolidation > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 10:15 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sean, By this, I assume one of your Consols is a "Super" > with > > > the > > > > V-2 motor. The very early (pre-War) one is not considered as > > > > a "Super" Varney, this engineering design with the cast frame > and > > > > leaf springs, with the V-1 motor was standard for Varney pre- > War > > > > engines. Its only the Varney post-War V-3 motored engines with > the > > > > two-piece riveted brass frame that were marketed as the Varney > > > Super > > > > engines. Right, your channel-brass- framed Consol with the DC- > 71 > > > > Pitman motor is just the Standard post-War design, but even > these > > > can > > > > be made to run great, with little effort. Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor > <a69mustang4me@ ...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On the Varney Super, I was hoping a few of you experts could > > > clear > > > > something up for me. > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > > > Thought I might chime in on this one.. > > > > > > > > > > I have three consols.. > > > > > > > > > > One is very early, with the diecast chassis and sprung > drivers > > > and > > > > with what apears to be a very early Varney motor..Is it a > Super, > > > even > > > > though it does not have the rare V2 motor as my second Consol > > > does? > > > > > > > > > > My third consol has just the basis unsprung diecast chassis, > so I > > > > know it is not the super.. > > > > > > > > > > Any clarification would help. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> > > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Super Consolidation > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > > > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 12:08 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gareth, > > > > > I believe you will be able to find the parts you want but I > am > > > > > hoping that when you get your engine back you will be running > it. > > > I > > > > > think you will like how well they run. All the Varney Super > > > > engines, > > > > > with the powerful and reliable V-2 motor, were well > engineered > > > > pieces. > > > > > Even though 60 years old they are smooth running with the > > > equalized > > > > > drivers and valve gear that worked nice. > > > > > I know Ray M will make it hum. Jim H > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6801	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Types of Varney motors

Hi Jim, The Varney 7 pole V-4 motor was enclosed, similar to the V-2, and in fact had similarities of the V-2 in that its main housing and end cap were identical and it used the same brushes. It was not an open frame motor, neither was it used for steam engines. This motor was designed to be integral with the power truck of the # 1988 F-3A and # 1989 F-3B powered units. It also came as kit # 1986-K, V-4 Power Truck Kit, espressly made for the F-3. The final gear ratio differed from that of the V-2, only as the large spur gear used on the steam engine axles could not of course be used in an F-3 truck. Oh, and this IS a Varney product -- not Pittman or Japanese. With your notation below, I just now realized that I did in fact unknowingly hit the "3" key by mistake instead of the "2" key when I was writing about the V-2 motor in the Varney "Super" engines. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused. Thanks for bringing that to our attention as I was not aware of it and did not intend for it. Just a slip of the finger, in Murphy's best efforts for typos. Best regards, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Varney V-1 6 volt large "horse shoe" type open frame. Used on Pre > War Varney steam engines only > Varney V-2 12 volt completely enclosed (maybe could be called can > motor). Used in all Super post war Varney Steam Engines > Varney V-3 12 volt Very similar to Varney V-2. Had an enclosed > housing but drive shaft/gear was exposed. This design was mainly > created for diesels but could be used elsewhere. > Varney V-4 A misnomer. It was a 12 volt open frame motor used on > Economy (rigid frame) steam engines and Diesels. Could be Pitman or > Japanese made. > > * I'm sure Ray just hit the 3 key instead of the 2 by mistake when > typing >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6802	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation

Gareth, I regret any confusion you may have had, if this earlier post you're referring to was mine (which I'd guess it was). It was only after reading Jim's notation the I hit the wrong key ("3" instead of "2") and then looked back at my reply to you and realized my typing error; my apologies. It is of course the V-2 that was used with the Super Engine and not the V-3, as again, most of us are aware of. Best, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <rcjge@...> wrote: > > Nope, I misunderstood an earlier post. I'm clear now. > > Thanks for the insights, always good to learn! :-) > > -Gareth > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Hi Gareth, I'm not sure I follow you exactly. If you have a sprung > > chassis made of two brass pieces assembled with "rivets," (not a cast > > sprung chassis), and your drivers are equalized via two lengthwise > > lengths of spring (piano) wire down the length of this chassis (not > > equalized via individual leaf springs), then of course you must have > > a V-2 motor -- and this is considered a Varney "Super" mechanism, as > > most of us realize. This is not in addition to a V-3 as also being a > > motor for a Super mechanism, as you are seeming to say. The V-3 > > motor is not (cannot) to be used with the Super mechanism. Ray W. > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <rcjge@> wrote: > > > > > > Hey Guys: > > > > > > According to the HOSeeker parts blow-up my Sprung chassis, equalized > > > drivers and V2 is a "Super" not only a V3. > > > > > > -Gareth > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Okay, then you have the Varney Kit # 2721K, produced between 1947 > > and > > > > 1957 (or the # 2127K that was produced between 1957 and 1963, > > > > depending on if it originally came with a tender). This engine > > had > > > > the cast unsprung frame with the Pittman DC-71 motor (economy > > valve > > > > gear and one-piece side rods) . Does yours have the # 2704K > > plastic > > > > long-distance tender? -- many did. Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thanks guys.. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, my third has a solid cast chassis that does not apear > > to > > > > be sprung. The motor is much newer than the one on the (prewar) > > > > sprung cast chassis engine I have as well.. > > > > > kool.. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, erieberk <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > From: erieberk <erieberk@> > > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Super Consolidation > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 10:15 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sean, By this, I assume one of your Consols is a "Super" > > with > > > > the > > > > > V-2 motor. The very early (pre-War) one is not considered as > > > > > a "Super" Varney, this engineering design with the cast frame > > and > > > > > leaf springs, with the V-1 motor was standard for Varney pre- > > War > > > > > engines. Its only the Varney post-War V-3 motored engines with > > the > > > > > two-piece riveted brass frame that were marketed as the Varney > > > > Super > > > > > engines. Right, your channel-brass- framed Consol with the DC- > > 71 > > > > > Pitman motor is just the Standard post-War design, but even > > these > > > > can > > > > > be made to run great, with little effort. Ray W. > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor > > <a69mustang4me@ ...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On the Varney Super, I was hoping a few of you experts could > > > > clear > > > > > something up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought I might chime in on this one.. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have three consols.. > > > > > > > > > > > > One is very early, with the diecast chassis and sprung > > drivers > > > > and > > > > > with what apears to be a very early Varney motor..Is it a > > Super, > > > > even > > > > > though it does not have the rare V2 motor as my second Consol > > > > does? > > > > > > > > > > > > My third consol has just the basis unsprung diecast chassis, > > so I > > > > > know it is not the super.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any clarification would help. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@ ..> > > > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Super Consolidation > > > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > > > > > Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 12:08 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gareth, > > > > > > I believe you will be able to find the parts you want but I > > am > > > > > > hoping that when you get your engine back you will be running > > it. > > > > I > > > > > > think you will like how well they run. All the Varney Super > > > > > engines, > > > > > > with the powerful and reliable V-2 motor, were well > > engineered > > > > > pieces. > > > > > > Even though 60 years old they are smooth running with the > > > > equalized > > > > > > drivers and valve gear that worked nice. > > > > > > I know Ray M will make it hum. Jim H > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6803	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Super Consolidation

Jim, After reading through this twice, it looks good from here. Oh well, as long as we're on this subject now, I might mention that there was an aftermarket "fix" to convert the V-1 to a smoother running (and more powerful) 12 volt motor using a 5-pole armature, which can still be done today. This may not go over well with the extreme purists though, who might maintain that the V-1 should only be a 3-pole armatured motor as originally offered. If I'm not mistaken, this fix was offered by Pittman just prior to the War, as some hobbyists were already converting to 12 volt at that time. Best, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Sean The differences between pre-war and post-war > Super Consolidation are these : > Pre War Has a cast frame. The frame is made to accept the > Varney pre war 6 volt V-1 motor. There is a place on top of the frame > where a screw allows you to attach motor. These frames were made to > only accept Varney V-1 motor. Many poor castings disintegrated. The > ungeared drivers had a large bearing block (two halves) on them that > had copper V shaped leaf "springs" that sat in the frame under the > bearing block letting drivers flex. The geared driver had a small set > of bearing blocks (two halves that didn't move) but fit in the frame. > You were suppose to make sure you did not switch either the bearing > block halves or the 2 little halves around as they were to be already > mated. Don't know how much that mattered. If today you had to replace > a disintegrating half it still works for me. > Post war (super) It was a brass frame separated by brass > roller shaped spacers that the drivers slide into. The drivers were > equalized by a wire that ran up and over one of these brass roller > shaped spacers and then under the next set of drivers the entire > length of the frame. One end of this wire was attached to the front > end of the frame and the other end at the back had a spring added and > then attached at the frame, both sides. This allowed the drivers to > move and be equalized. All types of Varney's Super engines were like > this. Finally it used the V-2 12 volt motor. The bottom half of the > geared end of the enclosed motor (I like to call it the first can > motor) came off to fit over the geared driver. > The third and last Varney Consolidation had a rigid brass frame > that the drivers turned in. It had an open frame motor. Hope I got > this all right. Let me know if you need more clarity. I read this > three times hoping I made no mistakes. > > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6804	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Varney Motors

Hi Ray W, Boy are we going to have nice disscussions which I like. Unless it's some semantics or just using different numbers the item you describe as V-4 to me is the V-3, Yes they (whatever the number) were designed to be used for the first metal framed,metal bodied F-3's. Yes they were Varney. To me the V-4 was just a number used for any open frame motor used by Varney, or other owners, to describe a cheaper motor being used. These were by Pittman or Japanese I have sheets (by Varney) for the V-3 and also have the diesel engine using it. Look forward to your replies as our little difference will cause trouble for others. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6805	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: V-1 aftermath fix

Ray W, For my knowledge I would love to hear the fix proposed for the Varney V-1 by Pitman. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6806	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: humbled and corrected

Ray w, I found the Varney sheet of Motors seperate V-3+ V-4 and made by Varney V-3 12 volt DC motor 1948-1954 This enclosed motor was verysimilar to the V-2 motor except it had an exposed straight shaft with a different shaft support with the ball bearing visible where it was mounted in the shaft. Straight shaft otor for rigid drive axles 7 pole motor .2 t0 .7 amps 10,000 to 16,000 RPM Part No. 1650-A V-4 12 volt Direct Drive 7 pole DC Motor 1948-1949 This motor was designed for the "deluxe" Varney F-3 Diesel Locomotives The motor is similar to the V-2 and V-3 It had a very short shaft adapter casting and included double threaded worms monted on the motor shaft and gears with a 13 to 1 gear ratio. Part No. 1968-A Now please answer me a question. When did Varney start using the open frame Pitman motorsin their Economy Rigid Frame Steam Engines? Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6807	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: humbled and corrected

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 4:35 PM Subject: [vintageHO] humbled and corrected > Ray w, > I found the Varney sheet of Motors seperate V-3+ V-4 and made by > Varney > > V-3 12 volt DC motor 1948-1954 This enclosed motor was > verysimilar to the V-2 motor except it had an exposed straight shaft > with a different shaft support with the ball bearing visible where it > was mounted in the shaft. Straight shaft otor for rigid drive axles 7 > pole motor .2 t0 .7 amps 10,000 to 16,000 RPM Part No. 1650-A > > V-4 12 volt Direct Drive 7 pole DC Motor 1948-1949 This > motor was designed for the "deluxe" Varney F-3 Diesel Locomotives The > motor is similar to the V-2 and V-3 It had a very short shaft adapter > casting and included double threaded worms monted on the motor shaft > and gears with a 13 to 1 gear ratio. Part No. 1968-A > > Now please answer me a question. When did Varney start using > the open frame Pitman motorsin their Economy Rigid Frame Steam Engines? > Jim H > Probably doesn't really answer your question, but my 1948 catalog lists the economy pacific with a Pittman DC-71. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6808	From: Gerry D	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself

Hello Jim, While I must be on the tail end of the welcome wagon, let me say Howdy! I've found a heck of a lot of knowledgeable people in here, mostly I sort of lurk as I don't seem to have any noteworthy vintage pieces. I've got a few metal MDC kits, a few Tyco metal engines, but that's about it. Just wondering here, if it was ever explained, in any definitive way, as to when something becomes vintage. Is it when it's no longer in production? Anyhow let's say the caboose of the welcome wagon, (oops, change that to welcome train), bids you welcome, (from the Steamtown/Scranton area). Cordially, Gerry --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> wrote: > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] introduce myself > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 9:56 PM > Hi all, > Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim > Heckard. I live in > a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I > became a > member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. > I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I > was a member > of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History > (HOSC&H) for over 15 > years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that > were made > between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can > back it up with > a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of > 157 steam > engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one > being > different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO > companies in > that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I > have names > in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, > Sampson, > FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside > Specialties, GARCO > (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris > Matucci, Knapp > plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part > of a set in > a box. > I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. > If anyone has > a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact > through the > group or off line at jimheck@... Regards Jim > Heckard > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6809	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Thanks

Hi Gerry, Thanks for the welcome. Let me first say that no matter what you have or what areas of HO you're interest are in, every one important as long as you like HO. I can't answer the question as to when an item becomes vintage. I think you will find many different answers for that. While cars in Pennsylvania are considered vintage after 20 years I'm not sure that follows for HO. You're thought about an out of production item is good too. I personally consider age a major factor but I have set my standard as OOP and made before 1975. I think it would be nice to see others comments on this. I see you live near Scranton and Steamtown. I'm down 81 South about hour and a half and never visited Steamtown but have come to Scranton. I'm into HO but not really into the real thing. Again Thanks. If I can be of any help just ask. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6810	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Motors

Hi again Jim, No, it doesn't look like its a just a simple matter of semantics nor merely different numbers. For starters, the "V-3" you are incorrectly referring to here as being used for the first metal framed, metal bodied STANDARD F-3's (kit # 1955, for powered A units and # 1956 for powered B units) is not the Varney V-3. Somewhere along the line you have become confused and mistaken. The open framed motor used for these STANDARD Varney F-3's (kit numbers above) is a 5-pole Pittman DC-60 motor. The Varney V-3 motor (Part # 1650-A) could never be used for any Varney F-3 as its design could never lend itself to this use. The V-3 is an elongated (2 7/32" long) motor with the straight shaft being enclosed within a long housing and extending 29/64" beyond the end of this housing. It was sold only as this separate item, with this part number, and was NEVER included in ANY locomotive kit -- steam or diesel. It was offered to the hobbyist for uses beyond what was required in any type of engine, for free-lance uses. It did not even come with a gear on the end of its shaft. In efforts to clarify matters for you concerning the V-4, I believe I stated this motor was used with the DE LUXE Varney F-3's (note, not the Standard F-3's. These metal-framed, metal bodied De Luxe F-3's were additionally offered along side of the standard F-3's, at the same time period (in the same catalogs). If you're still not clear, please obtain and refer to some of the early Varney catalogs, as they'll illustrate all these differences, with all the part numbers and motor designations. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray W, > Boy are we going to have nice disscussions which I like. > Unless it's some semantics or just using different numbers the item you > describe as V-4 to me is the V-3, Yes they (whatever the number) were > designed to be used for the first metal framed,metal bodied F-3's. Yes > they were Varney. To me the V-4 was just a number used for any open > frame motor used by Varney, or other owners, to describe a cheaper > motor being used. These were by Pittman or Japanese > I have sheets (by Varney) for the V-3 and also have the diesel > engine using it. Look forward to your replies as our little difference > will cause trouble for others. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6811	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: V-1 aftermath fix

Jim, This Pittman armature conversion for the Varney V-1 was not only proposed, but was in actual practice at the time, in pre-War 1941. It just involved swapping one armature (3-pole) for the other (5-pole). At that time, these motors were practically new, but after many years the Alnico magnets can lose much of their strength, so they should be re-magnetized for best performance (with either the 3-pole or 5-pole armature). I did a couple back in the '60's, and I believe an armature from the Pittman DC-70 can be used, although its too long ago now to remember clearly. I don't believe the Pittman DC-71 was developed yet, before the War and Pittman's conversion offering at the time was designed purposely for the V-1. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Ray W, > For my knowledge I would love to hear the fix proposed > for the Varney V-1 by Pitman. Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6812	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: humbled and corrected

Jim, I see that if I had only read a little further, I would have saved myself the trouble of trying to explain to you the differences between these motors. Yes, they are as you describe below. While you haven't included it here, the open frame motors used for the Standard F-3 Diesels were not Japanese but U.S.A. made Pittmans, a bit smaller than the ones used in the Varney Standard steam locomotives, but of similar design; they were also used in the Varney "Little Joe" Dockside and the Varney NW-2. I did mention their model designations previously, but at the risk of being repetitious they are DC-60, with the DC-71 being used in the Standard steam engines. In answer to your question on when Varney first started using the open frame Pittman DC-71 motor in the Economy steam engines, it first appeared in 1947, with the Economy (Standard) Pacific (kit # 1913K). In 1948, it was included as the motor for the Varney Economy Mikado (kit # 2300K), the Varney Economy Streamlined Hudson (kit # 2000K) and the Varney Economy Northern (kit # 2100K). Then, in 1949, it came with the Varney Economy Hudson (non-streamlined -- kit # 2200K). In 1950, it was first offered with the Varney Economy Berkshire (kit # 2400K). Regards, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Ray w, > I found the Varney sheet of Motors seperate V-3+ V-4 and made by > Varney > > V-3 12 volt DC motor 1948-1954 This enclosed motor was > verysimilar to the V-2 motor except it had an exposed straight shaft > with a different shaft support with the ball bearing visible where it > was mounted in the shaft. Straight shaft otor for rigid drive axles 7 > pole motor .2 t0 .7 amps 10,000 to 16,000 RPM Part No. 1650-A > > V-4 12 volt Direct Drive 7 pole DC Motor 1948-1949 This > motor was designed for the "deluxe" Varney F-3 Diesel Locomotives The > motor is similar to the V-2 and V-3 It had a very short shaft adapter > casting and included double threaded worms monted on the motor shaft > and gears with a 13 to 1 gear ratio. Part No. 1968-A > > Now please answer me a question. When did Varney start using > the open frame Pitman motorsin their Economy Rigid Frame Steam Engines? > Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6813	From: erieberk	Date: 8/8/2008
Subject: Re: Motor Clarifications Cont'd, was: humbled and corrected

While I know you didn't ask, in the name of completeness for those who may be curious, I'd just like to add that the open frame Pittman DC-60 was also used, starting in 1950, in the Varney Casey Jones Ten- Wheeler (kit # 2450K) and later in 1957 in the Old Lady Light Consol (kit # 2565K). By 1962, this motor was replaced with the open frame Japanese KM-1 motor in these two locos. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Jim, I see that if I had only read a little further, I would have > saved myself the trouble of trying to explain to you the differences > between these motors. Yes, they are as you describe below. While > you haven't included it here, the open frame motors used for the > Standard F-3 Diesels were not Japanese but U.S.A. made Pittmans, a > bit smaller than the ones used in the Varney Standard steam > locomotives, but of similar design; they were also used in the > Varney "Little Joe" Dockside and the Varney NW-2. I did mention > their model designations previously, but at the risk of being > repetitious they are DC-60, with the DC-71 being used in the Standard > steam engines. > > In answer to your question on when Varney first started using the > open frame Pittman DC-71 motor in the Economy steam engines, it first > appeared in 1947, with the Economy (Standard) Pacific (kit # 1913K). > In 1948, it was included as the motor for the Varney Economy Mikado > (kit # 2300K), the Varney Economy Streamlined Hudson (kit # 2000K) > and the Varney Economy Northern (kit # 2100K). Then, in 1949, it > came with the Varney Economy Hudson (non-streamlined -- kit # > 2200K). In 1950, it was first offered with the Varney Economy > Berkshire (kit # 2400K). Regards, Ray Wetzel > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@> wrote: > > > > Ray w, > > I found the Varney sheet of Motors seperate V-3+ V-4 and made by > > Varney > > > > V-3 12 volt DC motor 1948-1954 This enclosed motor was > > verysimilar to the V-2 motor except it had an exposed straight > shaft > > with a different shaft support with the ball bearing visible where > it > > was mounted in the shaft. Straight shaft otor for rigid drive axles > 7 > > pole motor .2 t0 .7 amps 10,000 to 16,000 RPM Part No. 1650-A > > > > V-4 12 volt Direct Drive 7 pole DC Motor 1948-1949 > This > > motor was designed for the "deluxe" Varney F-3 Diesel Locomotives > The > > motor is similar to the V-2 and V-3 It had a very short shaft > adapter > > casting and included double threaded worms monted on the motor > shaft > > and gears with a 13 to 1 gear ratio. Part No. 1968-A > > > > Now please answer me a question. When did Varney start > using > > the open frame Pitman motorsin their Economy Rigid Frame Steam > Engines? > > Jim H > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6814	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: What is vintage? (was Re: [vintageHO] introduce myself)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] introduce myself > Hello Jim, > > While I must be on the tail end of the welcome wagon, let me say Howdy! > I've found a heck of a lot of knowledgeable people in here, mostly I sort > of lurk as I don't seem to have any noteworthy vintage pieces. I've got a > few metal MDC kits, a few Tyco metal engines, but that's about it. > > Just wondering here, if it was ever explained, in any definitive way, as > to when something becomes vintage. Is it when it's no longer in > production? > > Anyhow let's say the caboose of the welcome wagon, (oops, change that to > welcome train), bids you welcome, (from the Steamtown/Scranton area). > > Cordially, > Gerry We had a big thread on this a year or so ago. When I envisioned the group I had put an arbitrary cut-off date of ca. 1960 or so, but since has expanded to cover anything in the "vintage style", i.e. "craftsmen type" wood and metal kits, "fallen flag: manufacturers, etc., pretty much anything that evokes the way things "used to be", in the pre-DCC, pre China RTR years. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6815	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production

Chuck, As I mentioned, Walthers used many (most) of Ulrich's all-metal car kits, but changed the catalog numbers while still adding a few of their own line while eliminating some of the Ulrich line -- and using the same interum catalog number for some. Without knowing these changes, it can look very confusing if anyone didn't know about these same interum catalog numbers being used for two different car kits. I'll give a listing of all the interum kit numbers of both Walthers and Ulrich, showing their relationship, and the years they were eliminated - - introduced. There is one area that still remains somewhat unclear to me, only as I do not have a complete collection of Walthers and Ulrich catalogs during the time of some of these kits being swapped out. In particular, we are talking about the Outside Braced Box Car series here, as Walthers 1964 catalog lists only 6 Ulrich O/B box cars, of the 12 known road names for this series. As such, it could appear that either the 6 remaining kits were Walthers introductions, or that they were all original Ulrich and the Walthers chose only to carry 6 of these Ulrich kits at that time. As with other listings, any omissions and/or corrections are welcome if someone has additional literature for this period that can clarify this better. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6816	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production

Chuck, I probably should have stated these Ulrich kit numbers with the corresponding kit numbers found in the Walthers 1964 catalog -- for the O/B Box Cars that I touched on -- in the previous post. They are, as found in Walthers 1964 catalog: Walthers Cat. # . . . Ulrich Cat. # . . . Road Name . . . UL131 . . . . . . . OB-1 . . . . . . ATSF . . . UL132 . . . . . . . OB-2 . . . . . . SP . . . UL133 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . PM . . . UL134 . . . . . . . OB-4 . . . . . . M&StL . . . UL135 . . . . . . . OB-5 . . . . . . B&M . . . UL136 . . . . . . . OB-6 . . . . . . BAR . . . UL137 . . . . . . . OB-7 . . . . . . ERIE . . . UL138 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . D&RGW . . . UL139 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . L & A . . . UL140 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . GN . . . UL141 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . D&H . . . UL142 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . SAL It should be pointed out, to make it easier for you, that with any of the Ulrich kits that Walthers carried over, they (Walthers) used the same color scheme and Road Numbers for these Road Names as Ulrich did. The unlisted Ulrich catalog numbers here, as found in Walthers 1964 catalog, seems to possibly indicate (from their lack of including them in 1964) that these are Walthers introductions somewhere shortly after that time even though I suspect they are all original Ulrich -- with Walthers just choosing not to include them at this time in 1964. By 1969, except for the Frisco (in the Cars of the Roaring 20's Series), Walthers omitted all of the 40' Outside Braced Box Cars. They also omitted the three 40' Wood Sheathed Box Cars that same year, ass well as the 40' Trailers on Flat Cars. Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6817	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Senior moment

Hi Ray, Thanks for the replys. Appreciate them. Trying to explain to many facts at one time and confusion reigned. Have to be extremely careful because of causing facts to become distorted and misleading people. Thanks for your corrections. Even books like Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains have mistakes even when proof read. One glaring mistake that is very obvious is a mislabled picture, page 26. It's to easy even when reading over something to spot it. You don't actual read what you wrote. I'm guilty When I wrote the reply about Varney motors it was because I was afraid confusion started due to an Email stating V-3 was typed, by mistake, intead of V-2. In an effort to correct that I only added to it. I was guilty of trying to correct a typing error and componding it. My mistake. One thing about the word NEVER. When Dave wrote his book he had a limited access to Varney items available. There were steam items from some collections added because some things were not known. That is why there has been 3 updates,that I know of, that Mr. Spanagel sent out to HOSC&H members as more was learned. I and a friend have Varney Rigid Frame Northerns that have V-3 motors instead of open frame. Are these just somebody changing it themselves or did Varny have some made of both ??? I look forward to a long relationship discussing Varney and others. Your vast knowledge can only improve mine but we all must retain an open mind. It is actually very hard to tell if in fact a factory, for whatever reason, released something odd to the norm or was it done by someone. To that effect I have learned to "Never say Never". Sincerely Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6818	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: help me understand

Hi Ray, I'm sure you are totally sick of hearing from me by now but please bear with me and explain this to help me understand. First I live 7 miles from Dr. Joe Weber of Ashland Pa. His colection provided most of the Varney steam pictures (and possibly write ups) that were used in the Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains by Dave Spanagel. I have seen his collection. A lot of the items have not been recondioned and MIGHT be mix and match,especially tenders. One particular item is the picture on page 55. The bottom engine shows according to the write up " 2-8-4 Berkshire with SPRUNG DRIVERS and a painted Zamac boiler, but MODIFIED DC-71 motor instead of a V-2 with enclosed gear box. Joe Weber Collection". Please explain, if this writing correct, how can the drivers be sprung (equalized) if not using a V-2 motor that was meant to move with the drivers ? How can the DC-71 motor, that would be bolted to the frame, move with the sprung drivers ? Am I missing something ? Help me !!!! On an entirely different note the paragraph on Page 54 talking about Varney 4-8-4 Super Northern Kit, which Spanagel numbered 1900 because no boxed item with number was available at the time of printing. The statement "was never advertized (could still be right) although there are several authenticated models in existance". I happen to have one of those authenticated Super Northerns in Kit form in two boxes. It has a brass frame with the equalized drivers and V-2 motor. I'm sure more have become available from when the book written. Because a following statement says "It appears that Varney assembled some kits in the factory for preferred customers". Maybe Varney also supplied some customers with assembled Rigid Frame Economy Northerns that had a V-3 motor (which I also have) instead of an open frame. Can anyone say NEVER to this and be 100 % sure ??? I honestly hope to have many discussions with you about Varney facts compard to when the book came out and what is known today. Sincerely Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6819	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: introduce myself - Super Scale

Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi all, > Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim Heckard. I live in > a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I became a > member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. > I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I was a member > of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History (HOSC&H) for over 15 > years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that were made > between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can back it up with > a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of 157 steam > engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one being > different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO companies in > that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I have names > in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, Sampson, > FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside Specialties, GARCO > (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris Matucci, Knapp > plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part of a set in > a box. > I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. If anyone has > a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact through the > group or off line at jimheck@... Regards Jim Heckard > > > Hi Jim, I notice you list Super Scale as one of the makes you collect. Do you have any literature/ catalogs that might help to identify kits that *may* be products Super Scale? I have purchased a number of car sides/ ends long ago; I misidentified them as Exacta/ Central Lines then - have learned in the meantime that this is highly unlikely. Next best guess would be Super Scale. I may send pictures of those sides if you want to take a look. BTW, I am collecting Exacta kits/ models ... always interested in any info about this company. My scanned instruction sheets may be viewed at http://www.hoseeker.org/otherhotrains6.html ; miscellaneous Diagrams Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6820	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Fwd: [EarlyRail] NWSL-going-going-gone to new owner

Just passing on the news......... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Begin forwarded message: From: Bill Fornshell <bfo******l@...> Date: August 9, 2008 12:34:23 PM CDT To: EarlyRail@yahoogroups.com Subject: [EarlyRail] NWSL-going-going-gone to new owner Reply-To: EarlyRail@yahoogroups.com Hi all, Just a reminder that NWSL has been sold and the new owner(s) takes over very soon.  Like less than two weeks from my conversation with Fred at NWSL yesterday.  I have been ordering things that can be assembled by NWSL and was told yesterday to get anything else I want on order real soon. If you have any questions and are in the U.S.A. you can call them at 206-932-1087 or email them at info@.... I am only a very happy customer. Bill in Texas

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6821	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Super Scale

Hi I have no Super Scale catalogs. I have one Super Scale passenger car mint in O/B but no plans. It has a wood roof, a wooden floor that has stamped writing on it saying " Open Platform Baggage Car" one place and "Open Platform Baggage Smoker" another. The sides and ends are metal with very nice detail, scribed wood with windows, doors and baggage door all one. End platforms, truck bolsters along with other detail parts are cast (lead or Zamac ?) Not a bad looking item. Hope this helps I have no idea how many other passenger cars were made. I have found very little information out there. Made in the 50's but no exact date. I do have 2 Super Scale engines. One is a mint in O/B with plans of a 600 HP EMC Switcher. The other is an Assembled 1000 HP EMC Switcher. Realize that Super Scale Engines (at least these) were only frame and body with lead detail pieces. You supplied the Motor/Drive/Sideframes,Etc. Super Scale recommended using Lindsay mechanisms as they were the easiest to install. You even got a special piece to help mount Lindsay motors. From what I have learned these were the only 2 engines they made. Also my information says made from "etched copper". I know these engines won't help you but it seems very difficult to find Super Scale items and info. The company was called Super Scale Models Corporation of Glenview Illinois I have assembled and mint in O/B Exacta kits (later Central Valley) They made a large number of passenger car kits. I have copied information of many of the different types if that helps. Regards Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6822	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Super Scale correction

Hi Gerold, It was Exacta and Central Lines not Central Valley like I wrote. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6823	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Senior moment

Hi Jim, Yes, confusion can reign very easily when it comes to stuff 70+ years old, especially if there's very little literature on it to go to. In the case of Varney though, its fortunately not too hard to get some catalogs if you look for them. Misinformation however can lead to wrong assumptions and the spread of them. As for my V-3 typo error, I thought I clarified that when it was brought to my attention, and like I said, I really didn't realize it until you pointed it out. Shows you can't be too careful before you hit "SEND," and even then its easy for something like that to slip past you. That goes to show that it just takes a one number difference to really mess things up, but I trust you're now at least somewhat acquainted with these different motors. Noticing you have the Greenberg's Guide to Varny Trains (By Dave Spanagel), as your making a few points from it, I'd like to mention that the information I gave you on when the DC-71 was first used on the steamers is also found in that book as well as the Varney catalogs. Yes, Dave (Spanagel) made some errors in the book and also omitted a number of things, but I'd say all-in-all at least it does help in its consolidation of many facts and should be of great help to the average Varney collector who wouldn't ordinarily know about this info. You may also have Dallas Mallerich's Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains since you collect whole train sets. There are some mistakes that can be found in that book as well, and a good number of omissions, as there was a time-element involved also, in getting the book out. Before I get into the meat of this thread, I'm goi ng to switch posts and catch you on the next one so I don't get my 'putor acting up on me (its ornery!). Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > Thanks for the replys. Appreciate them. Trying to explain to many > facts at one time and confusion reigned. Have to be extremely careful > because of causing facts to become distorted and misleading people. > Thanks for your corrections. > Even books like Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains have mistakes > even when proof read. One glaring mistake that is very obvious is a > mislabled picture, page 26. It's to easy even when reading over > something to spot it. You don't actual read what you wrote. I'm guilty > When I wrote the reply about Varney motors it was because I was > afraid confusion started due to an Email stating V-3 was typed, by > mistake, intead of V-2. In an effort to correct that I only added to > it. I was guilty of trying to correct a typing error and componding it. > My mistake. > One thing about the word NEVER. When Dave wrote his book he had a > limited access to Varney items available. There were steam items from > some collections added because some things were not known. That is why > there has been 3 updates,that I know of, that Mr. Spanagel sent out to > HOSC&H members as more was learned. I and a friend have Varney Rigid > Frame Northerns that have V-3 motors instead of open frame. Are these > just somebody changing it themselves or did Varny have some made of > both ??? > I look forward to a long relationship discussing Varney and others. > Your vast knowledge can only improve mine but we all must retain an > open mind. It is actually very hard to tell if in fact a factory, for > whatever reason, released something odd to the norm or was it done by > someone. To that effect I have learned to "Never say > Never". Sincerely Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6824	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Senior moment

Okay Jim, back again. Have to be cautious not to overwork my poor aging 'putor or it gets even with me by shutting me off line just when I have a long message I've typed, resulting in an empty gray screen with nothing to show for my work. This happened earlier today when I was trying to post Ulrich stuff for Chuck, but I won't go into it any further here. The mistake you point out on page 26 is fairly well known by now, and has become quite humorous. At the time though, nobody noticed it, including myself, when I was proofreading it -- but then, I wasn't the only proofreader. A number of us were credited by Dave in the opening pages (Introduction_) under Acknowledgements and Collectors in various capacities too numerous to elaborate on there, but duly mentioned on pages ix and x. As you bring out, you've found one use for the V-3 motor, for which Varney meant it for, although he never specifically recommended its use for any certain steam engine(s). You Varney Northern is a typical conversion. This WAS NOT produced in this manner as a kit, but instead was done by the individual hobbyist -- the reason being was that, although the Varney Economy Northern wassn't sprung, its performance was greatly improved by the 7-pole motor installation. Varney did make a Super Northern, with a V-2 motor, which you may be aware of, although it seems not too many hobbyists know of this. It is a rare n\model though, so its lack of awareness among hobbyists is well understood. Having most of the Varney catalogs and brochures, I can assure you that there was never even the slightest mention of a factory produced Varney engine kit of ANY TYPE coming with the V-3 motor. I agree though, that it is difficult to tell factory produced items sometimes, from hobbyist's conversions -- especially when an item such as this (V-3) was specifically designed to be able to be used in the various engines of the manufacturer, if the hobbyist so chooses to do so; that's what it was meant for. Originally, when the V-3 motor was first introduced post-War, it was intended to be used to convert the pre-War 6-volt motored steam engines. There was a template available which showed you where and how much material to file off of the "fin" on the motor's extension housing creating a notch which would fit over the frame step rise of the geared axle. A hole was to be drilled through this fin near its extremity to be able to mount it to the frame the same as you would mount the V-1. Will follow up soon, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > Thanks for the replys. Appreciate them. Trying to explain to many > facts at one time and confusion reigned. Have to be extremely careful > because of causing facts to become distorted and misleading people. > Thanks for your corrections. > Even books like Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains have mistakes > even when proof read. One glaring mistake that is very obvious is a > mislabled picture, page 26. It's to easy even when reading over > something to spot it. You don't actual read what you wrote. I'm guilty > When I wrote the reply about Varney motors it was because I was > afraid confusion started due to an Email stating V-3 was typed, by > mistake, intead of V-2. In an effort to correct that I only added to > it. I was guilty of trying to correct a typing error and componding it. > My mistake. > One thing about the word NEVER. When Dave wrote his book he had a > limited access to Varney items available. There were steam items from > some collections added because some things were not known. That is why > there has been 3 updates,that I know of, that Mr. Spanagel sent out to > HOSC&H members as more was learned. I and a friend have Varney Rigid > Frame Northerns that have V-3 motors instead of open frame. Are these > just somebody changing it themselves or did Varny have some made of > both ??? > I look forward to a long relationship discussing Varney and others. > Your vast knowledge can only improve mine but we all must retain an > open mind. It is actually very hard to tell if in fact a factory, for > whatever reason, released something odd to the norm or was it done by > someone. To that effect I have learned to "Never say > Never". Sincerely Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6825	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Motors

Nahh! If there is a problem just let them all re-motor all of them(just KIDDIN')it does get to be very intresing in here at times. That is why I try to proof read everything before sending the messages, Sometimes I still Miss things. Love the discussions it starts up though. Best to all. Charlie (X) W. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Motors > Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 20:42:24 -0000 > > > Hi Ray W, > Boy are we going to have nice disscussions which I like. > Unless it's some semantics or just using different numbers the item you > describe as V-4 to me is the V-3, Yes they (whatever the number) were > designed to be used for the first metal framed,metal bodied F-3's. Yes > they were Varney. To me the V-4 was just a number used for any open > frame motor used by Varney, or other owners, to describe a cheaper > motor being used. These were by Pittman or Japanese > I have sheets (by Varney) for the V-3 and also have the diesel > engine using it. Look forward to your replies as our little difference > will cause trouble for others. > Jim > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6826	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Caboose

Gerry LONG LIVE THE CABOOSE Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerry D" <gerard_sr@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] introduce myself > Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:11:37 -0700 (PDT) > > > Hello Jim, > > While I must be on the tail end of the welcome wagon, let me say Howdy! > I've found a heck of a lot of knowledgeable people in here, mostly > I sort of lurk as I don't seem to have any noteworthy vintage > pieces. I've got a few metal MDC kits, a few Tyco metal engines, > but that's about it. > > Just wondering here, if it was ever explained, in any definitive > way, as to when something becomes vintage. Is it when it's no > longer in production? > > Anyhow let's say the caboose of the welcome wagon, (oops, change > that to welcome train), bids you welcome, (from the > Steamtown/Scranton area). > > Cordially, > Gerry > > > --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> > > Subject: [vintageHO] introduce myself > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 9:56 PM > > Hi all, > > Wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jim > > Heckard. I live in a little town in eastern Pennsylvania called Shenandoah. I > > became a member about a week ago after seeing this Yahoo site. > > I have been involved with HO since 1958. Previously I > > was a member of a group called HO Scale Collectors & History > > (HOSC&H) for over 15 years. My main interest is collecting vintage items that > > were made between 1938-1975. While I like the history of HO I can > > back it up with a large collection of HO items. My collection consist of > > 157 steam engines, 200+ diesels and 400 Passenger cars with each one > > being different by company or road name. I collect the normal HO > > companies in that period with my Varney collection being the largest. I > > have names in my collection from the past like Crescent, Barr Nixon, > > Sampson, FAMOCO (Famous Model Company), Schrader, Trackside > > Specialties, GARCO (HJ Garret and Co.), Super Scale, Arden, Cambron, Harris > > Matucci, Knapp plus others. I collect no freight cars unless they are part > > of a set in a box. I feel that my knowledge might be useful if needed. > > If anyone has a question that I can hopefully answer you can contact > > through the group or off line at jimheck@... Regards Jim > > Heckard > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6827	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale

Attachments : Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi > I have no Super Scale catalogs. I have one Super Scale passenger > car mint in O/B but no plans. It has a wood roof, a wooden floor that > has stamped writing on it saying " Open Platform Baggage Car" one > place and "Open Platform Baggage Smoker" another. The sides and ends > are metal with very nice detail, scribed wood with windows, doors > and baggage door all one. End platforms, truck bolsters along with > other detail parts are cast (lead or Zamac ?) Not a bad looking item. > Hope this helps > I have no idea how many other passenger cars were made. I have > found very little information out there. Made in the 50's but no > exact date. > I have what seems to be a coach, two different Pullmans, a diner and an observation.. will attach pictures. > I do have 2 Super Scale engines. One is a mint in O/B with plans > of a 600 HP EMC Switcher. The other is an Assembled 1000 HP EMC > Switcher. Realize that Super Scale Engines (at least these) were only > frame and body with lead detail pieces. You supplied the > Motor/Drive/Sideframes,Etc. Super Scale recommended using Lindsay > mechanisms as they were the easiest to install. You even got a > special piece to help mount Lindsay motors. From what I have learned > these were the only 2 engines they made. Also my information says > made from "etched copper". I know these engines won't help you but it > seems very difficult to find Super Scale items and info. The company > was called Super Scale Models Corporation of Glenview Illinois > I remember there was a Super Scale loco on auction earlier this year but it seems I havent saved pictures... > I have assembled and mint in O/B Exacta kits (later Central > Valley) They made a large number of passenger car kits. I have copied > information of many of the different types if that helps. > I have several of the B&O oldtime kits, all types of the turn of the century open platform cars in plastic, some of them in copper, a number of heavyweights - mostly plastic, and also a number of the streamliners. Although I have plenty of advertising sheets and instructions, there are some types that are not documented... and I lack entirely any info about heavyweights done in copper. Keith Wills had a excellent article in RMC some years ago, do you know this article? I would like to compare the info you have with mine. Do you have scanned them? Thanks Gerold Gerold > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6828	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

Very Very Good Point Jim It is kinda inconcievable that unless the Company(any Company) actually wrote all productions down, everytime someone made a change on their own, I don't thinkthere will be a complete list of all different items. Let me offer a comparison story,,,I used to work in a Tool making factory in Southern Illinois, when we made Ratcheting Screwdrivers we had several different types ,Long, Short, 75th Ann., and they all went together just so...well I happen to have some short handle with long blades in my posession, several 75thv Ann with different blades just all sort of goodies, So Who is to say somebody did not make a certain amount of off the wall things for Varney,,,can a person ever be 100% sure ??????? Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] help me understand > Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:43:15 -0000 > > > Hi Ray, > I'm sure you are totally sick of hearing from me by now but > please bear with me and explain this to help me understand. > First I live 7 miles from Dr. Joe Weber of Ashland Pa. His > colection provided most of the Varney steam pictures (and possibly > write ups) that were used in the Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains > by Dave Spanagel. I have seen his collection. A lot of the items have > not been recondioned and MIGHT be mix and match,especially tenders. > One particular item is the picture on page 55. The bottom engine > shows according to the write up " 2-8-4 Berkshire with SPRUNG > DRIVERS and a painted Zamac boiler, but MODIFIED DC-71 motor instead > of a V-2 with enclosed gear box. Joe Weber Collection". Please > explain, if this writing correct, how can the drivers be sprung > (equalized) if not using a V-2 motor that was meant to move with the > drivers ? How can the DC-71 motor, that would be bolted to the frame, > move with the sprung drivers ? Am I missing something ? Help me !!!! > On an entirely different note the paragraph on Page 54 talking > about Varney 4-8-4 Super Northern Kit, which Spanagel numbered 1900 > because no boxed item with number was available at the time of > printing. The statement "was never advertized (could still be right) > although there are several authenticated models in existance". I > happen to have one of those authenticated Super Northerns in Kit form > in two boxes. It has a brass frame with the equalized drivers and V-2 > motor. I'm sure more have become available from when the book > written. Because a following statement says "It appears that Varney > assembled some kits in the factory for preferred customers". Maybe > Varney also supplied some customers with assembled Rigid Frame > Economy Northerns that had a V-3 motor (which I also have) instead of > an open frame. Can anyone say NEVER to this and be 100 % sure ??? > I honestly hope to have many discussions with you about Varney > facts compard to when the book came out and what is known > today. Sincerely Jim H > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6829	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Super Scale and trading info

Hi Gerold, I would be glad to try to help you ID those passenger cars. I am new to this site and don't know if members are allowed to contact each other "offline" since I think the purpose is to share the information. The reason I say offline is two fold. I don't have a scanner. I have a copying machine and a digital camera to send pictures. I come from an age before computers and am not up to speed on how to use certain features. I know how to take pictures and send them direct to a personnal Email address or vice versa. I don't know how to cut and paste to send Emails to this site. Computer illiterate ? Also I would be happy to copy assembly sheets,diagrams,catalogs, etc. to send to your home address. I have just sent many large packets of this type of "paper' to HOSeeker to use but I'm afraid it might take a while for him to list. Perhaps the site Owner / Moderator can advise how to do this. I will gladly exchange my home and Email addresses to try to help if allowed. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6830	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Possibility Exists

Hi Charles W, It's my THEORY about the possibility of Varney items created in the factory and being out of the norm. If Gordan Varney created/ assembled items for friends once who knows. You cited something that happened in a company you worked for. I never will say never. That's me. I once was told by a very knowledgable HO train person I was wrong about something till not only I produced the item, but so did others. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6831	From: John Barlow	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Possibility Exists

Interesting...and done by a brass importer about 20 or more years ago in O scale. The whole thing came out in a rear cover ad by Custom Brass/NJ International that showed an On Scale PRR MP54 (powered) with pantographs that seemed to be a natural follow-on to that company's then recently released PRR P54b coach in the same scale.   Opps! There was never to be any such publicly available piece. The owner(s) had intended a very limited run of MP54's (powered) for a select group, but somehow an ad was drawn up and submitted to Railroad Model Craftsman (?).  It was printed and distributed...and the thing was off and running. I heard BC/NJI had to disclaimer it fast as orders/reservations started coming in. Embarrassing!   Individual pieces down for key customers by a manufacturer/importer...not new.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck28@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Possibility Exists To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 4:41 PM Hi Charles W, It's my THEORY about the possibility of Varney items created in the factory and being out of the norm. If Gordan Varney created/ assembled items for friends once who knows. You cited something that happened in a company you worked for. I never will say never. That's me. I once was told by a very knowledgable HO train person I was wrong about something till not only I produced the item, but so did others. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6832	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

Hi again Jim, Actually I really don't mind at all, and I enjoy these types of discussions, really getting into the meat of these early manufacturers. This is one of the best ways that suxch information can be brought out, even more so than just plans and drawings . . . and catalog numbers such as may be found on groups like H0 Seekers. Conversation is often the only way to go, to get into the nitty- gritty of things, besides laying out the facts in spread-sheets which we're attempting to do (little by little) also. My only problem at the moment is that my 'puter is grossly handicapping me, and can wipe out what I just worked on in the typing of a detailed message, as it has just got done doing. Extremely frustrating to say the least. I'm happy to say that will be replaced within a couple of weeks, but for now . . . I think I'll cut this short rather than try to pass along all the pertinent facts concerning our thread -- only to lose everything again. I just lost a lengthy post to Chuck this morning on Ulrich stuff and need to find the time again to do it over. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > I'm sure you are totally sick of hearing from me by now but > please bear with me and explain this to help me understand. > First I live 7 miles from Dr. Joe Weber of Ashland Pa. His > colection provided most of the Varney steam pictures (and possibly > write ups) that were used in the Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains > by Dave Spanagel. I have seen his collection. A lot of the items have > not been recondioned and MIGHT be mix and match,especially tenders. > One particular item is the picture on page 55. The bottom engine > shows according to the write up " 2-8-4 Berkshire with SPRUNG > DRIVERS and a painted Zamac boiler, but MODIFIED DC-71 motor instead > of a V-2 with enclosed gear box. Joe Weber Collection". Please > explain, if this writing correct, how can the drivers be sprung > (equalized) if not using a V-2 motor that was meant to move with the > drivers ? How can the DC-71 motor, that would be bolted to the frame, > move with the sprung drivers ? Am I missing something ? Help me !!!! > On an entirely different note the paragraph on Page 54 talking > about Varney 4-8-4 Super Northern Kit, which Spanagel numbered 1900 > because no boxed item with number was available at the time of > printing. The statement "was never advertized (could still be right) > although there are several authenticated models in existance". I > happen to have one of those authenticated Super Northerns in Kit form > in two boxes. It has a brass frame with the equalized drivers and V- 2 > motor. I'm sure more have become available from when the book > written. Because a following statement says "It appears that Varney > assembled some kits in the factory for preferred customers". Maybe > Varney also supplied some customers with assembled Rigid Frame > Economy Northerns that had a V-3 motor (which I also have) instead of > an open frame. Can anyone say NEVER to this and be 100 % sure ??? > I honestly hope to have many discussions with you about Varney > facts compard to when the book came out and what is known > today. Sincerely Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6833	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Possibility Exists

Mr. Barlow, Thanks for sharing that example. I honestly believe that a lot of specialty items created in a factory or prototypes that were never to leave the factory got out in circulation and have ended up in some collections. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6834	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale

Hi Jim, I also have what is called a Varney coach, very nice car, I believe the bulk of Varney's passenger car kits were of wood/paper construction, however this particular car actually has stamped metal sides, I restored this car from its basket case status a couple of years back, when I got it, it already had decent Central Valley 6 wheel passenger trucks attached to it, but the car and paint were in real bad shape, she's looking real nice now. While I was fully aware that Walther's used to make metal sided passenger cars, at the time I got this car I wasn't aware that Varney made anything other than the paper sided models............:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6835	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: help me understand

Hi Ray W. I hope to have many fascinating disscussions with you and others. Emails sometimes don't convey someones actual feelings. Please believe me that I'm not trying to be a smart alec or a know it all (especially the latter). It takes a lot of people, this far down the road, to put everything back together. And together I hope we can accomplsh some of it. You don't know how much I apprecite the vast knowledge you have. It helps keep me focused. To all members share as you might have the one important fact that helps put it together. On an entirely different subject my computer is acting like yours. Type a long response and all of a sudden gone and no backup. Start all over again. pain you no where. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6836	From: John Barlow	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale

Gary,   In storage I have a Varney metal PRR round-end observation car kit from the 1950's I got as a kid. The roof was black plastic.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) --- On Sat, 8/9/08, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Super Scale To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 5:35 PM Hi Jim, I also have what is called a Varney coach, very nice car, I believe the bulk of Varney's passenger car kits were of wood/paper construction, however this particular car actually has stamped metal sides, I restored this car from its basket case status a couple of years back, when I got it, it already had decent Central Valley 6 wheel passenger trucks attached to it, but the car and paint were in real bad shape, she's looking real nice now. While I was fully aware that Walther's used to make metal sided passenger cars, at the time I got this car I wasn't aware that Varney made anything other than the paper sided models...... ......:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6837	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale

Hi John, The car I have is a heavyweight, its got a wood roof and floor, metal ends and sides, similar to Walthers old kits, but obviously isn't a Walthers car........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6838	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

Jim, I see you feel my pain, if you're having this same 'putor problem. I've been tying to get this information out to you all afternoon, and all's I got out was someething not even related to our discussion. Just now lost another 1/2hour's worth of work in a flash. I'll try getting the message to you in increments (individual paragraphs). Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray W. > I hope to have many fascinating disscussions with you and others. > Emails sometimes don't convey someones actual feelings. Please believe > me that I'm not trying to be a smart alec or a know it all (especially > the latter). It takes a lot of people, this far down the road, to put > everything back together. And together I hope we can accomplsh some of > it. You don't know how much I apprecite the vast knowledge you have. It > helps keep me focused. > To all members share as you might have the one important fact that > helps put it together. > On an entirely different subject my computer is acting like > yours. Type a long response and all of a sudden gone and no backup. > Start all over again. pain you no where. > Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6839	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Varney passenger cars

To All Asking, It will take a long time (maybe hours) to explain ALL the passenger cars Varney sold. The history is looooong. Greenberg's Varney book by D Spanagel is a good start. The early car were photographed sides, cardboard embossed sides, plastic painted sides, litographed metal with metal roofs and floors. Some in either 60' shorties and full size. And that doesn't cover any of the fully plastic cars/ kits which has a long lineage that started made by others. Some of the designs actually started as John English metal cars to HObbyline (John English plastic) to Penn Line to Varney and on to Lifelike. Both Streamlined and Standard. I will try to tackle this but I'm leaving the air for tonight. To much info swirling around my head. Maybe if I write it in parts covering where the design of the plastic passenger cars came from before sold by Varney would be a start. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6840	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

Alright Jim, let's try this: I did notice the bottom photo of Joe Weber's Varney Berkshire on page 55 (Greenberg's Varney Guide), although there's no way of telling what's inside (how this re-working looks). I also notice that its stated to havr a MODIFIED DC-71 motor. If this is actually a MODIFIED DC-71 motor, and I have no cause to doubt Joe, its modification must be such that its allowed to float with the geared sprung driver set, possibly by having a a hinged section of 2 metal parts soldered to the motor frame and then to the engine mainframe to enable verticle swiveling. In this way, it could be mounted to the frame (behind the drivers) via the hinge and still be allowed to ride free. Whatever the design, this was not a Varney-supplied modification, but was again done by the hobbyist. Jim, and interested parties: please do not reply to this message until I get it complete -- which may take 3 more posts, so you can get the full grasp of all I'm needing to get across, thanks. Regards, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > I'm sure you are totally sick of hearing from me by now but > please bear with me and explain this to help me understand. > First I live 7 miles from Dr. Joe Weber of Ashland Pa. His > colection provided most of the Varney steam pictures (and possibly > write ups) that were used in the Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains > by Dave Spanagel. I have seen his collection. A lot of the items have > not been recondioned and MIGHT be mix and match,especially tenders. > One particular item is the picture on page 55. The bottom engine > shows according to the write up " 2-8-4 Berkshire with SPRUNG > DRIVERS and a painted Zamac boiler, but MODIFIED DC-71 motor instead > of a V-2 with enclosed gear box. Joe Weber Collection". Please > explain, if this writing correct, how can the drivers be sprung > (equalized) if not using a V-2 motor that was meant to move with the > drivers ? How can the DC-71 motor, that would be bolted to the frame, > move with the sprung drivers ? Am I missing something ? Help me !!!! > On an entirely different note the paragraph on Page 54 talking > about Varney 4-8-4 Super Northern Kit, which Spanagel numbered 1900 > because no boxed item with number was available at the time of > printing. The statement "was never advertized (could still be right) > although there are several authenticated models in existance". I > happen to have one of those authenticated Super Northerns in Kit form > in two boxes. It has a brass frame with the equalized drivers and V- 2 > motor. I'm sure more have become available from when the book > written. Because a following statement says "It appears that Varney > assembled some kits in the factory for preferred customers". Maybe > Varney also supplied some customers with assembled Rigid Frame > Economy Northerns that had a V-3 motor (which I also have) instead of > an open frame. Can anyone say NEVER to this and be 100 % sure ??? > I honestly hope to have many discussions with you about Varney > facts compard to when the book came out and what is known > today. Sincerely Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6841	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

Back again Jim, Continuing: In addition to the Varney literature collection I mentioned having, which shows anything that Varney ever produced, if further verification is needed to help establish that this modification is not Varney, I would just like to pass along that I happen to have all these Varney models that were made, many still in kit form (including several (7) of the zamak-boilered Varney Berkshires, which BTW, came ONLY as an ECONOMY engine (never with a sprung frame). After already luckily completing a fairly comprehensive collection of these Varney engines by the early 1980's, I was fortunate enough to become acquainted with the two Eastern U.S.A Varney regional representatives (Hal Fletcher -- N.E. region and Dick Mercer -- S.E, region), both long retired from Varney by that time, and was sold Hal Fletcher's complete collection of every engine model ever produced by Varney -- all factory assembled for Mr. Fletcher's use in nmarketing the various Varney kits to the distributors. Many of these models were in triplicate or quadruplicate, or more (I was able to purchase 8 Yellowstones, for instance, with 4 more boilers), so I'm able to tell you with a good deal of certainty that Varney never produced an engine kit of any type that came with a modified Pittman DC-71 motor. If there had been one, Hal Fletcher would have had it if Varney wanted to promote it. Besides that, Varney never made a gearbox for any of the steam locomotives; Joe's may have been a Northwest Shortline gear box. There was no such factory made Varney product, and Varney was not a custom builder (nor custom modifier) just to satisfy a few customers, even if he assembled a short run of Super Northerns for the trade. Next -- more -- on Super Northerns. Regards, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > I'm sure you are totally sick of hearing from me by now but > please bear with me and explain this to help me understand. > First I live 7 miles from Dr. Joe Weber of Ashland Pa. His > colection provided most of the Varney steam pictures (and possibly > write ups) that were used in the Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains > by Dave Spanagel. I have seen his collection. A lot of the items have > not been recondioned and MIGHT be mix and match,especially tenders. > One particular item is the picture on page 55. The bottom engine > shows according to the write up " 2-8-4 Berkshire with SPRUNG > DRIVERS and a painted Zamac boiler, but MODIFIED DC-71 motor instead > of a V-2 with enclosed gear box. Joe Weber Collection". Please > explain, if this writing correct, how can the drivers be sprung > (equalized) if not using a V-2 motor that was meant to move with the > drivers ? How can the DC-71 motor, that would be bolted to the frame, > move with the sprung drivers ? Am I missing something ? Help me !!!! > On an entirely different note the paragraph on Page 54 talking > about Varney 4-8-4 Super Northern Kit, which Spanagel numbered 1900 > because no boxed item with number was available at the time of > printing. The statement "was never advertized (could still be right) > although there are several authenticated models in existance". I > happen to have one of those authenticated Super Northerns in Kit form > in two boxes. It has a brass frame with the equalized drivers and V- 2 > motor. I'm sure more have become available from when the book > written. Because a following statement says "It appears that Varney > assembled some kits in the factory for preferred customers". Maybe > Varney also supplied some customers with assembled Rigid Frame > Economy Northerns that had a V-3 motor (which I also have) instead of > an open frame. Can anyone say NEVER to this and be 100 % sure ??? > I honestly hope to have many discussions with you about Varney > facts compard to when the book came out and what is known > today. Sincerely Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6842	From: erieberk	Date: 8/9/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Northerns, was: help me understand

Hello again Jim, I don't recall ever seeing the Super (sprung) Northern advertised or cataloged. They do exist, which I see I don't need to tell you. As I said, with my acquisition of Hal Fletcher's factory assembled Varney display models, I received multiples of EVERY Varney engine ever produced -- including two of these (plus parts, extra frame pieces, etc.). So, yes, I can verify that Varney did produce the Super Northern. For anyone who may be skepticle and who thinks this engine may have been kitbashed by various hobbyists, one VERY IMPORTANT factor comes to light -- the two-piece (two sides) brass frame is unique to the Northern, being longer than the Berkshire or Mikado sprung frame sections, and was factory made just to fit this longer engine. Any other Super frame would not fit. I really tend to doubt that Varney factory-assembled any rigid-framed Northerns using the V-3 motor. First of all, there was no incentive to do so. All compobnents were already out there available if someone wanted to make that conversion. I'll cut this short right here, as this about covers it. Best, Ray Wetzel --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > I'm sure you are totally sick of hearing from me by now but > please bear with me and explain this to help me understand. > First I live 7 miles from Dr. Joe Weber of Ashland Pa. His > colection provided most of the Varney steam pictures (and possibly > write ups) that were used in the Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains > by Dave Spanagel. I have seen his collection. A lot of the items have > not been recondioned and MIGHT be mix and match,especially tenders. > One particular item is the picture on page 55. The bottom engine > shows according to the write up " 2-8-4 Berkshire with SPRUNG > DRIVERS and a painted Zamac boiler, but MODIFIED DC-71 motor instead > of a V-2 with enclosed gear box. Joe Weber Collection". Please > explain, if this writing correct, how can the drivers be sprung > (equalized) if not using a V-2 motor that was meant to move with the > drivers ? How can the DC-71 motor, that would be bolted to the frame, > move with the sprung drivers ? Am I missing something ? Help me !!!! > On an entirely different note the paragraph on Page 54 talking > about Varney 4-8-4 Super Northern Kit, which Spanagel numbered 1900 > because no boxed item with number was available at the time of > printing. The statement "was never advertized (could still be right) > although there are several authenticated models in existance". I > happen to have one of those authenticated Super Northerns in Kit form > in two boxes. It has a brass frame with the equalized drivers and V- 2 > motor. I'm sure more have become available from when the book > written. Because a following statement says "It appears that Varney > assembled some kits in the factory for preferred customers". Maybe > Varney also supplied some customers with assembled Rigid Frame > Economy Northerns that had a V-3 motor (which I also have) instead of > an open frame. Can anyone say NEVER to this and be 100 % sure ??? > I honestly hope to have many discussions with you about Varney > facts compard to when the book came out and what is known > today. Sincerely Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6843	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale and trading info

Hi Jim, If you can save your photos to you computer’s hard drive (C), then you can post them to this site’s photo section.  If you can only send them directly to some one, then send them to me and I will load them to the site, in a file with your name.  I do this for some others on other sites and it works just fine for all.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 6:08 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Super Scale and trading info   Hi Gerold, I would be glad to try to help you ID those passenger cars. I am new to this site and don't know if members are allowed to contact each other "offline" since I think the purpose is to share the information. The reason I say offline is two fold. I don't have a scanner. I have a copying machine and a digital camera to send pictures. I come from an age before computers and am not up to speed on how to use certain features. I know how to take pictures and send them direct to a personnal Email address or vice versa. I don't know how to cut and paste to send Emails to this site. Computer illiterate ? Also I would be happy to copy assembly sheets,diagrams, catalogs, etc. to send to your home address. I have just sent many large packets of this type of "paper' to HOSeeker to use but I'm afraid it might take a while for him to list. Perhaps the site Owner / Moderator can advise how to do this. I will gladly exchange my home and Email addresses to try to help if allowed. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6844	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

Ray W, Thank You for taking the time to send that 3 part message especially with your computer problem. Very interesting reading how you were able to get so many examples and in such good condition . I can only afford to have one of each example in my collection and some of them have been "reconditioned", but I like doing that. Do you have Varney's shortened so called GG-1 electric in yours (forget exactly how listed with no book in front of me)? I would like to add that I Fully AGREE that the modification to the Varney 2-8-4 Berk in Spanagel's book I mentioned was not done at or by Varney. My point was how it worked if listed properly. Your explanation of how the modification might work is very interesting. I read one part of it different then you. I don't think a gearbox was added but that it means no V-2 motor (which has) with gearbox. Small point that doesn't matter. Have to send this quick as lightning in area. Excuse any mispelled words and such. Hope no mistakes. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6845	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Slightly OT Need your input

Attachments : Lennard Stewart wrote:            Hi Everyone        I need your Input and Ideas. I am thinking very seriously of starting a Yahoo group for the sole purpose of Buying, Selling, and Swapping or the Trading of HO or 1/87 scale vehicles Motorized or non Motorized. This could be anything from Cars, Trucks, Boats, Planes, Motorcycles, or Bicycles to Items that are pulled by a Horse or Horses. It would be run very much like HOYARDSALE. Please I need your input. There are questions like; How long should a pic or file of a for sale Item or Items be allowed to remain posted?  7 Days, 14 Days or a Month. Any other Ideas or suggestions. This would be an Option to using This site or the Ebay.                  You may send your responses to me off List at lennard@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6846	From: erieberk	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

Jim, Yes, I consider myself very lucky to have met Hal Fletcher, which I probably wouldn't have if I did not cruise just about every model train swap & sell in this tri-state area many years back, for years on end. This was way before there was an internet, or any such thing as eBay, and although many dealers like Frank Brua and Fred Nixon offered periodic sell list through MR and RMC at that time, train meets were THE PLACE TO BE (be there or be square). I'm getting ahead of myself as, although I know you live in eastern PA, you did not know (until now) that I live in northern NJ. Mr Fletcher used to live in Queens, NY and he invited me over to his place many times, always the most gracious host with the offer of a scotch on the rocks immediately after his greeting upon opening the door. He not only had Varney in his collection, but being a model collector himself, he had names you never (or rarely) heard of. By that's another story. I started the train meet circuit in the mid 1970's. JUst before this, in the late 1960's thru the early 1970's, Hal hosted a regularly scheduled tain meet in New York and was president of the Empire model Railroad Club (he was well known in this area among serious modelers and collectors). After he discontinued hosting these events, he would still occasionally browse the meets, mainly to make re-acquaintances with old friends. It was at one of these meets on Long Island, NY that I ran into him when someone mentioned to him that a serious Varney fan (me) would like to meet him. Without that chance meeting, I wonder if I ever would have known him -- unless I might have run into him there some other time. Yes, Hal did have two of the shorty GG-1's, one that he wanted to keep. He was kind enough to sell me the other one. This was before I had any of the pre-War catalogs, so I rerally didn't know exactly what to expect. I found that this model uses the pre-War Consolidation mechanism, with the V-1 motor. Before this, I had no idea of how it ran. You're right -- Joe's Berk doesn't have a gear box. I originally read it to read that it did, then when I looked it over again, I saw they were referring to the V-2's "gearbox." Then, after so many attempts in trying to get out all that info, when I finally did type it up, I fell back on my original way of thinking. Funny how the mind can work sometimes -- like you believe what you want to believe. That's it for now, hope all this goes through. We'll talk again, I'm sure. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > Ray W, > Thank You for taking the time to send that 3 part message > especially with your computer problem. Very interesting reading how you > were able to get so many examples and in such good condition . I can > only afford to have one of each example in my collection and some of > them have been "reconditioned", but I like doing that. Do you have > Varney's shortened so called GG-1 electric in yours (forget exactly how > listed with no book in front of me)? > I would like to add that I Fully AGREE that the modification to > the Varney 2-8-4 Berk in Spanagel's book I mentioned was not done at or > by Varney. My point was how it worked if listed properly. Your > explanation of how the modification might work is very interesting. I > read one part of it different then you. I don't think a gearbox was > added but that it means no V-2 motor (which has) with gearbox. Small > point that doesn't matter. > Have to send this quick as lightning in area. Excuse any > mispelled words and such. Hope no mistakes. > Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6847	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Ulrich Production

Hi Ray, Working on this list now and have a question.  Should the TH-11 hopper stay on this original list? Thanks,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:55 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Ulrich Production   Hello Chuck, I'm gonna try to give you as much of the Ulrich line by Walthers that I can right now, but first I need to make some corrections to the original Ulrich spread sheet. In the Offset Side Triple Hopper series, both the TH-9 B&LE and TH-10 N&W should be removed as they're not original Ulrich. Still looking other stuff over as possibly questionable, but that's it for now. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6848	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Trading Info

Hi Chuck, Sorry I didn't respond a little quicker. We had major storms this morning. Actually knocked out power while typing a message. I appreciate the offer and I might have to take you up on it. Electronics has passed me by and age isn't helping. You would think with my background figuring out how to use something wouldn't be a problem. I spent over 25 years as an "A" millwright. I worked for 3 major companies one of which used German (metric) machines. I was a pipefitter,welder,repair and instalation mechanic with a degree in electrical drafting,machine shop schooling with tool and die experience, ran and programmed NC (Numerical Control( and CNC (Computerized Numerical Control. These CNC used a different "system" and names then personnal computers. For a while I was so illiterite I had 12:00 flashing on a VCR. I'm sitting here now with a CD player I never used ( although I don't want to). My wife who works with computers has tried, in vain, to teach an old dog new tricks. After showing me how to cut and paste and cop pictures I forgot after learning and doing. another problem for me is this new site. Since my home Emailaddress is not Yahoo I can't use my Email to write and spell check. If I try to send to this group it's rejected. I have to learn how to take my letter by highlitting it and copy and paste ? to this sites post. When I use this sites post i have no spell check and takes forever to check for mistakes. I have to learn to do this first so I can respond quicker to request or answer something. that wayi can spend more time with people who are now asking about passenger cars. Sorry for any mistakes but want to send this before I lose it. Again Thanks Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6849	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Trading Info

Hi Jim, That storm or at least the first stage has now passed though here.  I am sure with the practice you will get here you will pick it up soon.  As I mentioned, I do post for some others on other sites and it seems to work well for them.  I have also scanned photos and I can even do negatives/slides, 35 mm or smaller.  I purchases a scanner to do that when I learned I could no longer get my Instamatic slides printed.  I now have to learn how to get that VHS to DVD. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:09 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Trading Info   Hi Chuck, Sorry I didn't respond a little quicker. We had major storms this morning. Actually knocked out power while typing a message. I appreciate the offer and I might have to take you up on it. Electronics has passed me by and age isn't helping. You would think with my background figuring out how to use something wouldn't be a problem. I spent over 25 years as an "A" millwright. I worked for 3 major companies one of which used German (metric) machines. I was a pipefitter,welder, repair and instalation mechanic with a degree in electrical drafting,machine shop schooling with tool and die experience, ran and programmed NC (Numerical Control( and CNC (Computerized Numerical Control. These CNC used a different "system" and names then personnal computers. For a while I was so illiterite I had 12:00 flashing on a VCR. I'm sitting here now with a CD player I never used ( although I don't want to). My wife who works with computers has tried, in vain, to teach an old dog new tricks. After showing me how to cut and paste and cop pictures I forgot after learning and doing. another problem for me is this new site. Since my home Emailaddress is not Yahoo I can't use my Email to write and spell check. If I try to send to this group it's rejected. I have to learn how to take my letter by highlitting it and copy and paste ? to this sites post. When I use this sites post i have no spell check and takes forever to check for mistakes. I have to learn to do this first so I can respond quicker to request or answer something. that wayi can spend more time with people who are now asking about passenger cars. Sorry for any mistakes but want to send this before I lose it. Again Thanks Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6850	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

Ray w, Hopefully a very quick story on how I found my Varney shortened so called GG-1. Somebody was using the body for a paper weight. I was able to purchase it. I then had to some how athenticate it. I knew that Bowers(English) had a / the mold and had made some of these bodies but his name was in the top. I know others had produced there own copies some of which showed up on Ebay Since I was a member of the HOSC&H group I approched them first. The concenses was it's original. While D Spanagel you know some of these names you might not. Frank Bell, Pete Ellis, Jeff Richards and other members. The thing that is wrong with my engine is that the body is right but I had to use/install a Varney Economy Rigid Frame with open frame motor as I couldn't afford to use up a pre war V-1 frame and motor. I cut the 2-8-0 like the plans show and added original front/back 4 wheel Varney trucks like called for. I didn't add any pantagraphs. While I know Varney later sold a set to install I have never seen or heard who made them. ANY idea or info ???? Appreciate your Emails and hope to exchange more. I must get back to some people asking to help some passenger cars and not only Varney, assuming I learn to use this site better. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6851	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Ulrich cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Ulrich cars and models You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Ulrich%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6852	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Ulrich Production

Ray, I have uploaded the revised file.  I have made a second set under the first set to revise as you forward the new cat numbers and roadnames.  That is why that file is there. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 8:16 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers Ulrich Production   Chuck, I probably should have stated these Ulrich kit numbers with the corresponding kit numbers found in the Walthers 1964 catalog -- for the O/B Box Cars that I touched on -- in the previous post. They are, as found in Walthers 1964 catalog: Walthers Cat. # . . . Ulrich Cat. # . . . Road Name . . . UL131 . . . . . . . OB-1 . . . . . . ATSF . . . UL132 . . . . . . . OB-2 . . . . . . SP . . . UL133 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . PM . . . UL134 . . . . . . . OB-4 . . . . . . M&StL . . . UL135 . . . . . . . OB-5 . . . . . . B&M . . . UL136 . . . . . . . OB-6 . . . . . . BAR . . . UL137 . . . . . . . OB-7 . . . . . . ERIE . . . UL138 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . D&RGW . . . UL139 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . L & A . . . UL140 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . GN . . . UL141 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . D&H . . . UL142 . . . . . . Unlisted . . . . . SAL It should be pointed out, to make it easier for you, that with any of the Ulrich kits that Walthers carried over, they (Walthers) used the same color scheme and Road Numbers for these Road Names as Ulrich did. The unlisted Ulrich catalog numbers here, as found in Walthers 1964 catalog, seems to possibly indicate (from their lack of including them in 1964) that these are Walthers introductions somewhere shortly after that time even though I suspect they are all original Ulrich -- with Walthers just choosing not to include them at this time in 1964. By 1969, except for the Frisco (in the Cars of the Roaring 20's Series), Walthers omitted all of the 40' Outside Braced Box Cars. They also omitted the three 40' Wood Sheathed Box Cars that same

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6853	From: Gerry D	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Trading Info

Chuck, My method of VHS to DVD involves the use of a tuner card and software that came with the DVD recorder. While the DVD software will go directly from the tuner input which is driven by a VHS player/recorder, I prever to dump the thing on a hard drive, edit out stuff, then save it to DVD. There are many ways, but the essentials are a computer, a tuner card, (soon to be obsolete after the US goes digital), a DVD recorder and software that comes with the DVD recorder and Tuner card. When the US goes digital, there should be lots of the tuner cards available on ebay and the like. Cordially, Gerry --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> Subject: RE: [SPAM][vintageHO] Trading Info To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 1:33 PM Hi Jim, That storm or at least the first stage has now passed though here.  I am sure with the practice you will get here you will pick it up soon.  As I mentioned, I do post for some others on other sites and it seems to work well for them.  I have also scanned photos and I can even do negatives/slides, 35 mm or smaller.  I purchases a scanner to do that when I learned I could no longer get my Instamatic slides printed.  I now have to learn how to get that VHS to DVD. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:09 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Trading Info   Hi Chuck, Sorry I didn't respond a little quicker. We had major storms this morning. Actually knocked out power while typing a message. I appreciate the offer and I might have to take you up on it. Electronics has passed me by and age isn't helping. You would think with my background figuring out how to use something wouldn't be a problem. I spent over 25 years as an "A" millwright. I worked for 3 major companies one of which used German (metric) machines. I was a pipefitter,welder, repair and instalation mechanic with a degree in electrical drafting,machine shop schooling with tool and die experience, ran and programmed NC (Numerical Control( and CNC (Computerized Numerical Control. These CNC used a different "system" and names then personnal computers. For a while I was so illiterite I had 12:00 flashing on a VCR. I'm sitting here now with a CD player I never used ( although I don't want to). My wife who works with computers has tried, in vain, to teach an old dog new tricks. After showing me how to cut and paste and cop pictures I forgot after learning and doing. another problem for me is this new site. Since my home Emailaddress is not Yahoo I can't use my Email to write and spell check. If I try to send to this group it's rejected. I have to learn how to take my letter by highlitting it and copy and paste ? to this sites post. When I use this sites post i have no spell check and takes forever to check for mistakes. I have to learn to do this first so I can respond quicker to request or answer something. that wayi can spend more time with people who are now asking about passenger cars. Sorry for any mistakes but want to send this before I lose it. Again Thanks Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6854	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Passenger car info

Hi Gerold and Gary I didn't forget you request for info. To much going on and then a big storm this morning where we lost power and I was afraid maybe the computer. Thank goodness I only lost letter I was writing. Very much wanted to get back to you about sharing some passenger car nformation. While not sure how sharing pictures will go it will be important to state: Exactly what car is made of. Show as clear and close of picture as possible including Sides, roof, bottom with trucks and ends. You must realize while I have over 400 passenger in my collection they only cover manufacturers from 1938-1975 (give or take a year) Anything newer most likely out of my league. While some cars will be easily recognized others might take longer. Won't make a snap judgment because of what's out there. I have some items out for viewing but a large number are still mint in O?B kits. Since there are so many companies and types I might have to go back to the boxes to refresh my memory as to what material each had. Just to much info to retain. Then if I don't have the actual piece I have to search the catalogs. A number of companies had wood roofs and floors with metal sides. I was trying to remember them all but again have to go back to my kits. Takes a little time. As for Varney plastic items there were some after all the others materials he used. Now I'm not talking about the celluloid sided/ wood Varney kits here. I'm talking about the full plastic Standard Heavyweight and Streamlined cars. I think I told you their linage is long as to where the original item came from. I can also supply info and pictures of other materials Varney used including embossed cardboard, celluloid side,all metal baked enamel/lithograph type but had plastic ends,etc. I apologize for kind of using one message to try to answer two people. Storms approaching again. Can power failure be far behind. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6855	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /v1.jpg Uploaded by : betsy662 <betsy662@...> Description : Side shot of Varney Coacg You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/v1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, betsy662 <betsy662@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6856	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /v2.jpg Uploaded by : betsy662 <betsy662@...> Description : The end of the Varney Coach, showing one slight modification, which is an IHC diaphram You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/v2.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, betsy662 <betsy662@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6857	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /v3.jpg Uploaded by : betsy662 <betsy662@...> Description : Bottom of the Varney Coach You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/v3.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, betsy662 <betsy662@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6858	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Jim, I've uploaded 3 pix to the files showing my Varney Coach, naturally the car is fully restored and does get run, mostly on the West Hernando Central RR at Dana's RR Supply in Springhill, Florida...........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6859	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > I've uploaded 3 pix to the files showing my Varney Coach, naturally the car is fully restored and does get run, mostly on the West Hernando Central RR at Dana's RR Supply in Springhill, Florida...........:o) > > Gary W > Gary, In between lightning strikes and power flickering I've looked at the car. Good idea what it is but want to be sure. Are the car sides cardboard with embossed (raised) rivets and other details(Varney called it Strathmore Board)and the window material is a seperate piece OR are the sides a plastic like material (celluloid)that has no detail and the window material is the same piece? You said you repainted it and it now has Central Valley trucks and is definitely Varney. Is that right ? Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6860	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Slightly OT Need your input

An intresting idea indeed probably about a a week for the time for it to be displayed that would be long enough for most peeps to see it and act probably. I think you may have a winner, but of course I am an ebay-aholic. Charlie (X) W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennard Stewart" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Slightly OT Need your input Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:15:39 -0500 Lennard Stewart wrote:            Hi Everyone        I need your Input and Ideas. I am thinking very seriously of starting a Yahoo group for the sole purpose of Buying, Selling, and Swapping or the Trading of HO or 1/87 scale vehicles Motorized or non Motorized. This could be anything from Cars, Trucks, Boats, Planes, Motorcycles, or Bicycles to Items that are pulled by a Horse or Horses. It would be run very much like HOYARDSALE. Please I need your input. There are questions like; How long should a pic or file of a for sale Item or Items be allowed to remain posted?  7 Days, 14 Days or a Month. Any other Ideas or suggestions. This would be an Option to using This site or the Ebay.                  You may send your responses to me off List at lennard@... -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6861	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Pre-War Varney leaf spring

With all this talk about Varney mechanisms I was wondering if anyone has an extra leaf spring for the pre-war Varney Consolidation. I picked the loco up at a meet several years ago but one of the leaf springs is missing. If someone has an extra that they would be willing to part with, please contact me off line at my e-mail address with your price. Thanks Bill DeFoe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6862	From: erieberk	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Ulrich Production

Hi Chuck, Working up to sending you Walthers Ulrich ptroduction stuff, but need a good (long) time-slot to do it -- and then, it seems there's always something else that needs to be taken care of -- but I'll get there! On the TH-11 C&NW triple hopper (Red), that comes off of the original Ulrich list. It was first introduced by Walthers in 1969 as their catalog number Y-100. It didn't last long in production as Walthers replaced it with N&W # 101352 (Black) WITH THE SAME catalog number, in 1971 -- Y-100 -- which can really mess you up if you're not aware of this. This is why I said these Walthers catalog number changes are important. Catch up to you soon. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Working on this list now and have a question. Should the TH-11 hopper stay > on this original list? > > Thanks, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of erieberk > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:55 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Walthers Ulrich Production > > > > Hello Chuck, I'm gonna try to give you as much of the Ulrich line by > Walthers that I can right now, but first I need to make some > corrections to the original Ulrich spread sheet. > In the Offset Side Triple Hopper series, both the TH-9 B&LE and TH- 10 > N&W should be removed as they're not original Ulrich. > > Still looking other stuff over as possibly questionable, but that's > it for now. Ray Wetzel >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6863	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: convertinig VHS to DVD

Gerry, Thanks, I will be looking for one or maybe get an unconverter adapter.  I have seen them at Best Buys and need to understand them more. Thanks again, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6864	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: passenger car info

Gary, While I'm still not quit sure about all the rules of this Yahoo site I'm thinking it might be better to send pictures right to me instead of taking up room under files. jimheck@... Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6865	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: sending email off line

Hi Don, I guess your the best person to ask this question. I'm not sure of the rules that govern this site so maybe you can help me. I noticed anytime I try to pass along my home email it doesn't go through. My home Email is not a Yahoo.Com address. Is or isn't this allowed as I have noticed others mention to contact offline. Everytime I hit the offline for somebody the internet will not connect. Please help this computer illiterite understand Thanks Jim Heckard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6866	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line

Attachments : Lennard Stewart wrote:     Hi Jim         Your email shows up in the header what is up top.  But if you want to include it in the message itself then you have to do it this way like this          here is mine lennard@...  Yahoo will probably strip that one.  So you do it like this            lennardATetexDOTnet  replace AT with @ and replace DOT with a period Hope this helps Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Don, I guess your the best person to ask this question. I'm not sure of the rules that govern this site so maybe you can help me. I noticed anytime I try to pass along my home email it doesn't go through. My home Email is not a Yahoo.Com address. Is or isn't this allowed as I have noticed others mention to contact offline. Everytime I hit the offline for somebody the internet will not connect. Please help this computer illiterite understand Thanks Jim Heckard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6867	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line

Jim, Are you using Microsoft’s Outlook for your email?  If you could that would help you.  You would then have spell check and other things.  It does make life easier.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:39 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] sending email off line   Hi Don, I guess your the best person to ask this question. I'm not sure of the rules that govern this site so maybe you can help me. I noticed anytime I try to pass along my home email it doesn't go through. My home Email is not a Yahoo.Com address. Is or isn't this allowed as I have noticed others mention to contact offline. Everytime I hit the offline for somebody the internet will not connect. Please help this computer illiterite understand Thanks Jim Heckard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6868	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line

-Hi Lennard, It's funny but that is how I was going to write my off line Email address which is jimheckATloschDOTnet but I wasn't sure if the site owner allowed it. I was waiting for confirmation so I didn't do anything wrong. Appreciate your response. Thanks Jim -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Lennard Stewart <lennard@...> wrote: > > Lennard Stewart wrote: > > Hi Jim > > Your email shows up in the header what is up top. But if you > want to include it in the message itself then you have to do it this way > like this > > here is mine lennard@... Yahoo will probably strip that > one. So you do it like this > lennardATetexDOTnet replace AT with @ and replace DOT with a > period Hope this helps > > Jim Heckard wrote: > > > Hi Don, > > I guess your the best person to ask this question. I'm not sure of > > the rules that govern this site so maybe you can help me. > > I noticed anytime I try to pass along my home email it doesn't go > > through. My home Email is not a Yahoo.Com address. Is or isn't this > > allowed as I have noticed others mention to contact offline. Everytime > > I hit the offline for somebody the internet will not connect. > > Please help this computer illiterite understand > > Thanks Jim Heckard > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6869	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line

Hi Chuck, Yes I normally use Microsoft's Outlook for writing my Emails mainly because of spell check. What I have been doing lately is use Microsoft Outlook to write message and then highlite,copy to vintage HO and paste. I found out real quick that I can't send an Email to the Yahoo Vintagr site because my Email address which is jimheckATloschDOTnet won't be accepted. Thanks for your reply. I'm slowly learning. I want to learn how to put my pictures in VintageHO site by copy and paste but creating the album has been a challenge. Don't laugh. My wife tries to show me as she works with computers but calls me hopeless when she is not home Regards Jim H --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > Jim, > > Are you using Microsoft's Outlook for your email? If you could that would > help you. You would then have spell check and other things. It does make > life easier. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Jim Heckard > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:39 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] sending email off line > > > > Hi Don, > I guess your the best person to ask this question. I'm not sure of > the rules that govern this site so maybe you can help me. > I noticed anytime I try to pass along my home email it doesn't go > through. My home Email is not a Yahoo.Com address. Is or isn't this > allowed as I have noticed others mention to contact offline. Everytime > I hit the offline for somebody the internet will not connect. > Please help this computer illiterite understand > Thanks Jim Heckard >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6870	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: I need help w/ my All-weather Mantua 2-6-0 Kitbash project.

Hey Guys, I have added a folder called All-weather Mantua 2-6-0. It is an engine I spent the weekend bashing from my scrap box. The deck & pilot truck is from an Athearn Light Mikado. The chassis & trailing truck is from a Mantua prarie. The shell is obviously a Mantua Booster and the rear of the ab is athe back of a Kemtron all weather cab kit. I need help chosing/building or design ideas for a tender that would look appropriate. I am leaning towards a vandi, like that of the short MDC. Does anyone have any extra or junk bases. I have plenty of shells with no bases. Any ideas? Thanks, Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6871	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring

--Bill, I'm sorry I don't even have one leaf spring. I think you will need more then one. I have always used 2 or 3 under each bearing block as when ever I took one apart there was always more then one. I would have to go back to my pre war assembly sheets to see what was recommended. Probably Ray W knows without even looking. I also think over time these leaf springs weaken so maybe more then one better any way. Jim H - In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote: > > With all this talk about Varney mechanisms I was wondering if anyone > has an extra leaf spring for the pre-war Varney Consolidation. I > picked the loco up at a meet several years ago but one of the leaf > springs is missing. If someone has an extra that they would be willing > to part with, please contact me off line at my e-mail address with your > price. > > Thanks > > Bill DeFoe >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6872	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

I trust you've checked the photo albums on the group home page? There are a number of examples of completed cars there already. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Passenger car info > Hi Gerold and Gary > I didn't forget you request for info. To much going on > and then a big storm this morning where we lost power and I was > afraid maybe the computer. Thank goodness I only lost letter I was > writing. > Very much wanted to get back to you about sharing some > passenger car nformation. While not sure how sharing pictures will go > it will be important to state: > Exactly what car is made of. Show as clear and close of > picture as possible including Sides, roof, bottom with trucks and > ends. > You must realize while I have over 400 passenger in my > collection they only cover manufacturers from 1938-1975 (give or > take a year) Anything newer most likely out of my league. While some > cars will be easily recognized others might take longer. Won't make a > snap judgment because of what's out there. I have some items out for > viewing but a large number are still mint in O?B kits. Since there > are so many companies and types I might have to go back to the boxes > to refresh my memory as to what material each had. Just to much info > to retain. Then if I don't have the actual piece I have to search the > catalogs. > A number of companies had wood roofs and floors with metal > sides. I was trying to remember them all but again have to go back to > my kits. Takes a little time. > As for Varney plastic items there were some after all the > others materials he used. Now I'm not talking about the celluloid > sided/ wood Varney kits here. I'm talking about the full plastic > Standard Heavyweight and Streamlined cars. I think I told you their > linage is long as to where the original item came from. I can also > supply info and pictures of other materials Varney used including > embossed cardboard, celluloid side,all metal baked enamel/lithograph > type but had plastic ends,etc. > I apologize for kind of using one message to try to answer > two people. Storms approaching again. Can power failure be far > behind. > Jim > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6873	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: passenger car info

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 5:30 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: passenger car info > Gary, > While I'm still not quit sure about all the rules of this Yahoo > site I'm thinking it might be better to send pictures right to me > instead of taking up room under files. jimheck@... > Jim H > The photo albums are the preferred location for photos rather than files. They are there for all the members. I would prefer the files section be kept for things like the manufacturer spread sheets, pdf's or scans of instruction sheets, old ads, catalogs etc. that don't lend themselves to the jpg. format. email attachments sent directly to the list are allowed, as long they are jpg. format, and a reasonable size (under 150K). Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6874	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 5:39 PM Subject: [vintageHO] sending email off line > Hi Don, > I guess your the best person to ask this question. I'm not sure of > the rules that govern this site so maybe you can help me. > I noticed anytime I try to pass along my home email it doesn't go > through. My home Email is not a Yahoo.Com address. Is or isn't this > allowed as I have noticed others mention to contact offline. Everytime > I hit the offline for somebody the internet will not connect. > Please help this computer illiterite understand > Thanks Jim Heckard eMail sent "off list" (or "off line") should not be a problem. That is plain old email, just like to anybody else and yahoo has nothing to do with it.. If you post something TO the list, you need to send it FROM the address you have registered to your yahoo ID, otherwise yahoo will not recognize you as a member. Putting your regular email address in a message shouldn't make any difference, it should show up as a clickable link (like my signature below). If it doesn't, or if the links aren't working, the problem is more likely in your mail program or browser. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6875	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

What you guys seem to be describing as a Varney "Shorty" GG-1 sounds more like an R-1--only one built and lost out in the trials against the GG-1. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To] Re: help me understand > Ray w, > Hopefully a very quick story on how I found my Varney shortened > so called GG-1. Somebody was using the body for a

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6876	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Trading Info

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 12:09 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Trading Info > Hi Chuck, (text bobbitted) > another problem for me is this new site. Since my home > Emailaddress is not Yahoo I can't use my Email to write and spell > check. If I try to send to this group it's rejected. I have to learn > how to take my letter by highlitting it and copy and paste ? to this > sites post. When I use this sites post i have no spell check and > takes forever to check for mistakes. > I have to learn to do this first so I can respond quicker > to request or answer something. that wayi can spend more time with > people who are now asking about passenger cars. Sorry for any > mistakes but want to send this before I lose it. > Again Thanks Jim H Replying to this, and an addendum to my last post on emails, you CAN go into your yahoo account and change your email address so it is the preferred one for your yahoo ID. You don NOT HAVE to use a yahoo address in your yahoo account. ( I don't.) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6877	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: Super Scale and trading info

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 5:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Super Scale and trading info > Hi Gerold, > I would be glad to try to help you ID those passenger cars. I > am new to this site and don't know if members are allowed to contact > each other "offline" since I think the purpose is to share the > information. > The reason I say offline is two fold. I don't have a scanner. I > have a copying machine and a digital camera to send pictures. I come > from an age before computers and am not up to speed on how to use > certain features. I know how to take pictures and send them direct to a > personnal Email address or vice versa. I don't know how to cut and > paste to send Emails to this site. Computer illiterate ? Also I would > be happy to copy assembly sheets,diagrams,catalogs, etc. to send to > your home address. I have just sent many large packets of this type > of "paper' to HOSeeker to use but I'm afraid it might take a while for > him to list. > Perhaps the site Owner / Moderator can advise how to do this. I will > gladly exchange my home and Email addresses to try to help if allowed. > Jim H Did my other emails answer your questions about sending things to the list and where and what to post to the home page? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6878	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: site rules for off line info

Don, Thank You for your post and explaining what rules should be followed. I don't want to do the wrong thing. It's a great site I do have one question/problem as to how to change the Yahoo site name behind my jimheck28 to my home Email address. When I first joined and this came up I tried to change it but couldn't. Probably something very simple I'm missing. Again glad you started the site. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6879	From: Gerry D	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: convertinig VHS to DVD

Well Chuck, that's the way I do it and I have had much success with it. Of course there are all-in-one units, but with them edditing is darn near impossible. Cordially, Gerry --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] convertinig VHS to DVD To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:18 PM Gerry, Thanks, I will be looking for one or maybe get an unconverter adapter.  I have seen them at Best Buys and need to understand them more. Thanks again, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6880	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

-Glenn, You are right it is close to the R-1. Let me quote right from the book Varney book [410] Streamlined 4-8-4 Electric Locomotive kit-Pennsylvania The July 1938 issue of Model Railroading announced the intoduction of Varney's ADAPTATION of the famous Pennsylvania GG-1 electric Locomotive The wheel arrangement was 4-B-B-4, numerically similar to a 4-8-4 steamer, with four leading, eight driving, four trailing wheels. The model was actually closer in appearence to the Pennsylvania R-1 type. It was shortened somewhat from accurate scale dimensions for ease of construction and operational advantages on small radius curves. The description goes on for 2 more paragrahs but hopefully this will explain what we were talking about. When we talked about the engine I didn't have the book in front of me so just said "so called GG-1" since a lot of people use that phrase. The reason I brought it up in the post to RAY W is I feel it is the hardest original Varney piece to find. The information states "less then 200 made". It came without pantagrahs. Later you could buy a set from Varney. You were to use the Varney pre war 2-8-0 frame cut down to an 0-8-0 and V-1 motor for the drive. You added front and trailing 4 wheel Varney trucks. Perhaps Ray W. can say if it was all in a kit. I only had a body to start with and add the drive motor later. HOPE I MADE NO MISTAKES IN TYPING. Hope this helps Regards Jim H -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > What you guys seem to be describing as a Varney "Shorty" GG-1 sounds more > like an R-1--only one built and lost out in the trials against the GG-1. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> > To] Re: help me understand > > > > Ray w, > > Hopefully a very quick story on how I found my Varney shortened > > so called GG-1. Somebody was using the body for a >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6881	From: Howard	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Mantua "Coast Daylight" engine question

hi Group, I have a couple of old Mantua Coast Daylight passenger cars and was wondering, did Mantua also market their A/B unit set in SP Daylight as well ? Also, Im trying to assemble 3 Limited Editions(aluminum) passenger cars but holding back pending advise on the best glue available today for the project. Thanks, Howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6882	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: convertinig VHS to DVD

I may have missed some of this--but I have a machine by "Go Video" that will record either direction between VHS and DVD.  It will detect and refuse to copy certain protection systems.  Got it at Costco a couple of years ago.   gj  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerry D To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:52 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] convertinig VHS to DVD Well Chuck, that's the way I do it and I have had much success with it. Of course there are all-in-one units, but with them edditing is darn near impossible. Cordially, Gerry --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] convertinig VHS to DVD To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:18 PM Gerry, Thanks, I will be looking for one or maybe get an unconverter adapter.  I have seen them at Best Buys and need to understand them more. Thanks again, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6883	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/10/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

I think the R-1 was a 2-D-2 using that 2-8-0 mechanism. if it was a "B-B" chassis it would have been a "T-2" before the "T-1" Probably only a few made as the prototype was a one-off. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6884	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: passenger car info

Hi Jim, Not a problem, however, I do want to share them with all of the members......:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6885	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Jim, The car has metal sides with embossed rivet detail, the window glazing in this case now is clear styrene, however, I would imagine when the car was first built, it the window glazing was probably acetate, the roof and floor are wood, and the ends are metal castings, the diaphrams are more up to date IHC diaphrams which would mainly be found on IHC's smoothside cars, the CV trucks came with the car, and it was a basket case, the reason I believe it to be a Varney is simply because when I got it on ebay, it was under the Varney listings, and the previous owner believed also it was a Varney. I also have a paper sided observation car, with wood roof and floor, which is definately a Varney, but the coach is questionable, I don't think its a Walthers, since I'm familiar with the typical construction of some of the older Walthers kits, it is slightly different, however similar to Walthers..........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6886	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Trading Info

I wonder if the add-on spell checkers I was finding for Windows will act like you need? There are several free spell-checkers that claim to work through your installed programs. I've found that works well even in the on-site Yahoo mail reply-to- message/post-message mail feature. I sent out a list of several of those freeware programs for Windows a few days ago. After doing a search on my 'sents', I see it was not from this computer. If you'd like it, I can send it after work from my newer computer. I find this feature to be really handy......... However, I do it from a Mac, where it just simply is built-in to work with any program, even while on-site with the browsers. It's a old type of software. I remember doing the same in '90 with an add-on spell-checker that worked through every program on my Amiga. Microsoft really ought to include that as well, these many years later. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Aug 10, 2008, at 8:21 PM, Don Dellmann wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Heckard" > > >> Hi Chuck, > > (text bobbitted) > >> another problem for me is this new site. Since my home >> Emailaddress is not Yahoo I can't use my Email to write and spell >> check. If I try to send to this group it's rejected. I have to learn >> how to take my letter by highlitting it and copy and paste ? to this >> sites post. When I use this sites post i have no spell check and >> takes forever to check for mistakes. >> I have to learn to do this first so I can respond quicker >> to request or answer something. that wayi can spend more time with >> people who are now asking about passenger cars. Sorry for any >> mistakes but want to send this before I lose it. >> Again Thanks Jim H > > Replying to this, and an addendum to my last post on emails, you > CAN go into > your yahoo account and change your email address so it is the > preferred one > for your yahoo ID. You don NOT HAVE to use a yahoo address in your > yahoo > account. ( I don't.) > > Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6887	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

-Gary, Back to the drawing board because of the embossed "METAL" sides with the other materials your car made from. I honestly do not remember any Varney pasenger cars using embossed metal sides,along with metal end castings, with wood roof and floor. All the early passenger cars I know about were celluloid (plastic)or cardboard sides. The only metal Varney passenger cars I know about were streamlined all metal except plastic ends the had a baked enamel finish. Although Varney sold a PA-40 Steel Commuter car it's sides were cardboard embossed construction. There are a number of "vintage" HO companies that used the materials the way you mentioned, just like the Walther's cars. I will try to match your car's window pattern and construction materials to items I have, which will take a while, because so many are mint kits in O/B. I will add that items on Ebay might be stated by the seller to be Varney and that is not always the case. Thought I could help quick but guess not. Sorry. Jim -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > The car has metal sides with embossed rivet detail, the window glazing in this case now is clear styrene, however, I would imagine when the car was first built, it the window glazing was probably acetate, the roof and floor are wood, and the ends are metal castings, the diaphrams are more up to date IHC diaphrams which would mainly be found on IHC's smoothside cars, the CV trucks came with the car, and it was a basket case, the reason I believe it to be a Varney is simply because when I got it on ebay, it was under the Varney listings, and the previous owner believed also it was a Varney. > > I also have a paper sided observation car, with wood roof and floor, which is definately a Varney, but the coach is questionable, I don't think its a Walthers, since I'm familiar with the typical construction of some of the older Walthers kits, it is slightly different, however similar to Walthers..........:o) > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6888	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

-Glenn, Your message probably right. I know very little about full size engine classifications. I can only rely on (1) What Greenberg's Varney Guide says in it's description although I think the words adaptation and similar to R-1 important when referring to Varney's model. (2) My sample engine from my collection is a 4-8-4 as far as wheel pattern. As the book says 4 leading, 8 driving , 4 trailing. Jim -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I think the R-1 was a 2-D-2 using that 2-8-0 mechanism. if it was a "B-B" > chassis it would have been a "T-2" before the "T-1" Probably only a few > made as the prototype was a one-off. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6889	From: Gerry D	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: sending email off line

Hey Chuck, I'm using FireFox browser to answer messages and it had a built in spell checker much like outlook. Questionable words are underlined in red. Just thought I'd mention that. Cordially, Gerry http://kitbash.ourpage.com --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] sending email off line To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 6:58 PM Jim, Are you using Microsoft’s Outlook for your email?  If you could that would help you.  You would then have spell check and other things.  It does make life easier.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:39 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] sending email off line   Hi Don, I guess your the best person to ask this question. I'm not sure of the rules that govern this site so maybe you can help me. I noticed anytime I try to pass along my home email it doesn't go through. My home Email is not a Yahoo.Com address. Is or isn't this allowed as I have noticed others mention to contact offline. Everytime I hit the offline for somebody the internet will not connect. Please help this computer illiterite understand Thanks Jim Heckard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6890	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Could it be an old jc Models kit? Except they mostly had the diaphragms cast with the ends (could have been filed off, and more modern “operating” ones installed???).  Other than that, the old Walthers and jc’s were very much alike.  Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 9:14 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Passenger car info   -Gary, Back to the drawing board because of the embossed "METAL" sides with the other materials your car made from. I honestly do not remember any Varney pasenger cars using embossed metal sides,along with metal end castings, with wood roof and floor. All the early passenger cars I know about were celluloid (plastic)or cardboard sides. The only metal Varney passenger cars I know about were streamlined all metal except plastic ends the had a baked enamel finish. Although Varney sold a PA-40 Steel Commuter car it's sides were cardboard embossed construction. There are a number of "vintage" HO companies that used the materials the way you mentioned, just like the Walther's cars. I will try to match your car's window pattern and construction materials to items I have, which will take a while, because so many are mint kits in O/B. I will add that items on Ebay might be stated by the seller to be Varney and that is not always the case. Thought I could help quick but guess not. Sorry. Jim -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > The car has metal sides with embossed rivet detail, the window glazing in this case now is clear styrene, however, I would imagine when the car was first built, it the window glazing was probably acetate, the roof and floor are wood, and the ends are metal castings, the diaphrams are more up to date IHC diaphrams which would mainly be found on IHC's smoothside cars, the CV trucks came with the car, and it was a basket case, the reason I believe it to be a Varney is simply because when I got it on ebay, it was under the Varney listings, and the previous owner believed also it was a Varney. > > I also have a paper sided observation car, with wood roof and floor, which is definately a Varney, but the coach is questionable, I don't think its a Walthers, since I'm familiar with the typical construction of some of the older Walthers kits, it is slightly different, however similar to Walthers..........:o) > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6891	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

-Hi Gary, I have gone through all my passenger cars even checking all my kits in O/B. That includes all my Varney cars and it's catalogs and reference books. I have only found passenger cars made by Walthers and JC Silver Sides that match the construction materials you have mentioned (wood floor and roof, Cast metal ends and embossed or raised detail METAL sides and are heavyweight type cars. Perhaps albums mentioned by Don D or one of the links provided on passenger cars can help. A number of HO passenger companies didn't provide trucks but Central Valley trucks were used by many companies. Although these could have been added at a latter time. I will now search other catalogs but so far have struck out. Jim - In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > The car has metal sides with embossed rivet detail, the window glazing in this case now is clear styrene, however, I would imagine when the car was first built, it the window glazing was probably acetate, the roof and floor are wood, and the ends are metal castings, the diaphrams are more up to date IHC diaphrams which would mainly be found on IHC's smoothside cars, the CV trucks came with the car, and it was a basket case, the reason I believe it to be a Varney is simply because when I got it on ebay, it was under the Varney listings, and the previous owner believed also it was a Varney. > > I also have a paper sided observation car, with wood roof and floor, which is definately a Varney, but the coach is questionable, I don't think its a Walthers, since I'm familiar with the typical construction of some of the older Walthers kits, it is slightly different, however similar to Walthers..........:o) > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6892	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

-Hi Gery, Can't believe what just happened. Ready to post a message to you and when I tried it disappeared. Computers hate me. I have searched all my passenger cars including those still mint in boxes. I can only come up with Walther's and JC Silversides as having the construction materials you mention (wood roof and floor, cast ends and mebossed or raised detail METAL sides. I will continue to check reference books and catalogs I have. Perhaps it would be a wise idea to check photo albums Don D mentioned or passenger car links provided. Jim H -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > The car has metal sides with embossed rivet detail, the window glazing in this case now is clear styrene, however, I would imagine when the car was first built, it the window glazing was probably acetate, the roof and floor are wood, and the ends are metal castings, the diaphrams are more up to date IHC diaphrams which would mainly be found on IHC's smoothside cars, the CV trucks came with the car, and it was a basket case, the reason I believe it to be a Varney is simply because when I got it on ebay, it was under the Varney listings, and the previous owner believed also it was a Varney. > > I also have a paper sided observation car, with wood roof and floor, which is definately a Varney, but the coach is questionable, I don't think its a Walthers, since I'm familiar with the typical construction of some of the older Walthers kits, it is slightly different, however similar to Walthers..........:o) > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6893	From: erieberk	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Gary, Since this car has metal sides, as I suspected it did but didn't know (until now), this is a JC Silver Sides Model # H0-12. Close to both the Walthers # 7880 and # 6680, but with slightly different construction as per your view of the undersides. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > The car has metal sides with embossed rivet detail, the window glazing in this case now is clear styrene, however, I would imagine when the car was first built, it the window glazing was probably acetate, the roof and floor are wood, and the ends are metal castings, the diaphrams are more up to date IHC diaphrams which would mainly be found on IHC's smoothside cars, the CV trucks came with the car, and it was a basket case, the reason I believe it to be a Varney is simply because when I got it on ebay, it was under the Varney listings, and the previous owner believed also it was a Varney. > > I also have a paper sided observation car, with wood roof and floor, which is definately a Varney, but the coach is questionable, I don't think its a Walthers, since I'm familiar with the typical construction of some of the older Walthers kits, it is slightly different, however similar to Walthers..........:o) > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6894	From: erieberk	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring

Jim, Bill: I don't have an assembly sheet for a Varney pre-War steam engine, but I've also used 2 to 3 leaf springs under each bearing block -- one is not enough. Varney (in their catalogs) states . . . "Four pairs of spring leaves control the movement of each sprung axle." It would seem that a "pair" in this case would refer to one leave spring, bent, now with an upper and lower portion which is even a lot. I've never seen an engine having 4 of these leaf springs; usually no more than 3, so the hobbyists of that time must have removed at least one during maintenance or when they first constructed them.. Certainly, Varney can't mean 8 of these bent leaf springs, as four pairs; they would never fit. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > --Bill, > I'm sorry I don't even have one leaf spring. I think you will need > more then one. I have always used 2 or 3 under each bearing block as > when ever I took one apart there was always more then one. I would have > to go back to my pre war assembly sheets to see what was recommended. > Probably Ray W knows without even looking. I also think over time these > leaf springs weaken so maybe more then one better any way. > Jim H > > > > - In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > > > > With all this talk about Varney mechanisms I was wondering if anyone > > has an extra leaf spring for the pre-war Varney Consolidation. I > > picked the loco up at a meet several years ago but one of the leaf > > springs is missing. If someone has an extra that they would be > willing > > to part with, please contact me off line at my e-mail address with > your > > price. > > > > Thanks > > > > Bill DeFoe > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6895	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi Gerold and Gary > I didn't forget you request for info. To much going on > and then a big storm this morning where we lost power and I was > afraid maybe the computer. Thank goodness I only lost letter I was > writing. > Hi Jim, no hurry from my side - whenever, and no matter by what means you will send info, it will be appreciated. BTW, regarding your offer of sending copies by mail, be aware that I live in Vienna/ Austria... not a big deal to send things over the pond, but I feel I should mention. I am no computer wizard too, but I think with a little help you should be able to find a way to scan your pages, so all members may benefit from them. If you send xerox copies to me or anybody else for scanning, the quality will suffer. It might make sense to put pictures and info of various cars in the groups pictures section. I will browse my files what may be useful, and will start an Exacta/ Central Lines file ... hope other members will step in and fill the voids. Re Super Scale, the two pictures I attached recently are all I have; and I am not even sure if they are Super Scale. So it seems there will be no respective folder in the near future. As mentioned, I have already sent all my printed matter to Hoseeker - so I wont post this a second time to the groups files. I feel it makes more sense at Hoseeker anyway as a wider audience has access there, and maybe this may ultimately result in new information coming in. Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6896	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Jim, I've had similar things happen, I had recieved a message one time, went to reply, and the message simply disappeared, completely, never to be seen again. There is a chance that this car might not actually be Varney, I don't think its Walthers, as the parts simply don't look like Walthers parts, however, the last Walthers craftsmen type passenger car I built was in O scale, so there might be some differences there anyway...:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6897	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Jerry, I put those diaphrams on myself, they didn't come with the car at all........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6898	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: help me understand

> The thing that is wrong with my engine is that the body is > right but I had to use/install a Varney Economy Rigid Frame with open > frame motor as I couldn't afford to use up a pre war V-1 frame and > motor. I cut the 2-8-0 like the plans show and added original > front/back 4 wheel Varney trucks like called for. I didn't add any > pantagraphs. While I know Varney later sold a set to install I have > never seen or heard who made them. ANY idea or info ???? > Appreciate your Emails and hope to exchange more. I must get > back to some people asking to help some passenger cars and not only > Varney, assuming I learn to use this site better. > Jim H > > Jim, re the missing pantographs - I think Japanese brass pantographs , like those sold by Walthers ( three sizes), Suydam and others would be appropriate. seems everybody used them then. Even my Lionel ? E33 clone came equipped with one of these. I would recommend Walthers "long" pantographs, the smaller ones would look out of place on a PRR motor. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6899	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

OUCH !!! Perhaps you'd like to look over this site's page............. 'How to Reinstall Windows Without Losing Your Data' "Over time, Windows loses stability. If you keep a computer for more than two years, at some point you're going to have to bite the bullet and reinstall Windows from scratch. But contrary to popular belief, you won't have to reformat your hard drive (with one exception, discussed below). The bad stuff you need to get rid of is all in your Windows folder." http://pcworld.about.com/magazine/2109p156id111652.htm Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 11, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: > -Hi Gery, > Can't believe what just happened. Ready to post a message to > you and when I tried it disappeared. Computers hate me. > I have searched all my passenger cars including those still mint > in boxes. I can only come up with Walther's and JC Silversides as > having the construction materials you mention (wood roof and floor, > cast ends and mebossed or raised detail METAL sides. > I will continue to check reference books and catalogs I have. > Perhaps it would be a wise idea to check photo albums Don D mentioned > or passenger car links provided. > Jim H > > > > > > > -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: >> >> Hi Jim, >> >> The car has metal sides with embossed rivet detail, the window > glazing in this case now is clear styrene, however, I would imagine > when the car was first built, it the window glazing was probably > acetate, the roof and floor are wood, and the ends are metal > castings, the diaphrams are more up to date IHC diaphrams which would > mainly be found on IHC's smoothside cars, the CV trucks came with the > car, and it was a basket case, the reason I believe it to be a Varney > is simply because when I got it on ebay, it was under the Varney > listings, and the previous owner believed also it was a Varney. >> >> I also have a paper sided observation car, with wood roof and > floor, which is definately a Varney, but the coach is questionable, I > don't think its a Walthers, since I'm familiar with the typical > construction of some of the older Walthers kits, it is slightly > different, however similar to Walthers..........:o) >> >> Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6900	From: erieberk	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring

Jim, Bill: I chose to reply to this is two parts, so as not to risk losing it (like what happened this morning with this). I don't have any extra leaf springs either, but I've improvised. If you can find an older print shop around by you, stop in and as if they have any 18 point copper Thin Spaces. These were used in letterpress to put between words when setting a line of foundry type. They are tempered copper (spring copper), as opposed to soft copper, and are ideal for this application -- so much so, that Gordon Varney may have used these very same items. There are brass ones also that can be used, and although you wouldn't need as many of the brass ones (as they're thicker -- more resistant). The brass Thin Space is 1/72" thick and the copper Thin Space is 1/144" thick (in printing, 1" = 72 points). The 18 point size I recommended is the size if the type (in height), which is exactly 1/4" (and is the width of the copper Thin Space, and the Varney leaf spring) -- And exactly the width of the recess in the frame for the bearing block, and they are 3/4" long -- which, when bent in half is 3/8" long -- exactly the same size as the Varney Leaf Spring again, in the other direction. Its like they were made to fit. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > --Bill, > I'm sorry I don't even have one leaf spring. I think you will need > more then one. I have always used 2 or 3 under each bearing block as > when ever I took one apart there was always more then one. I would have > to go back to my pre war assembly sheets to see what was recommended. > Probably Ray W knows without even looking. I also think over time these > leaf springs weaken so maybe more then one better any way. > Jim H > > > > - In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > > > > With all this talk about Varney mechanisms I was wondering if anyone > > has an extra leaf spring for the pre-war Varney Consolidation. I > > picked the loco up at a meet several years ago but one of the leaf > > springs is missing. If someone has an extra that they would be > willing > > to part with, please contact me off line at my e-mail address with > your > > price. > > > > Thanks > > > > Bill DeFoe > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6901	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Gary W,            I think the post Ray W made about it being JC is correct. I was leaning that way but would have to go into my paper fills/catalogs to be sure. On the other hand Ray had ID very quickly and  the models number. It pays when identification needed to say what each piece was made of.                            Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Passenger car info Hi Jim, I've had similar things happen, I had recieved a message one time, went to reply, and the message simply disappeared, completely, never to be seen again. There is a chance that this car might not actually be Varney, I don't think its Walthers, as the parts simply don't look like Walthers parts, however, the last Walthers craftsmen type passenger car I built was in O scale, so there might be some differences there anyway...:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6902	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Varney Passenger Cars?

Attachments : Hi Jim, I do have another passenger car I picked up on the cheap, its an observation car, done in Santa Fe, it has the potential of being a beautiful car, the undercarriage wasn't built with too much precision, as the bolsters seem to be off a little, could be so the car could negotiate tighter curves, I haven't really restored this one, but I do have a pair of MDC trucks under it, and of course, Kadee couplers. This one has paper sides, wood roof and floor, and the vestibule end is also wood. I'm attempting to send these pix via this message this time. Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6903	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Ray, Thanks for the info, until I joined this list I never knew about JC silver sides cars, only heard about them.........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6904	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring

Ray,      I have copies for the 3 pre war Varney steam engines. For what ever the reason the plans/ assembly sheet/parts list for the 2-8-0 Consolidation is by itself and has 7 one sided pages.  The Pacific while shown on the front of another group of papers contains drawing/parts list and assembly plans but also contains the same for the Mikado.This has 12 one sided pages. The basic assembly plans are the same papers for all 3. These packets also contains pictures and info for installing and maintaining the V-1 motors. If you want copies let me know.       As for the leaf springs the assembly sheet says this  "The bearing springs are in the cellophane envelope with the frame. Bend these in half like the leaves of a book. It then has a drawing on the left that looks like four springs bent in half. On the right it has a drawing showing them being dropped in the frame with the sentence ' Drop Springs into frame thus.      Ray it looks like you are right about 4 pieces being bent in half was what Varney wanted. It matches what you have in your catalog. I apologize for being to lazy to dig them out in the first place.                                                                                          Jim          ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:54 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring Jim, Bill: I don't have an assembly sheet for a Varney pre-War steam engine, but I've also used 2 to 3 leaf springs under each bearing block -- one is not enough. Varney (in their catalogs) states . . . "Four pairs of spring leaves control the movement of each sprung axle." It would seem that a "pair" in this case would refer to one leave spring, bent, now with an upper and lower portion which is even a lot. I've never seen an engine having 4 of these leaf springs; usually no more than 3, so the hobbyists of that time must have removed at least one during maintenance or when they first constructed them.. Certainly, Varney can't mean 8 of these bent leaf springs, as four pairs; they would never fit. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@. ..> wrote: > > --Bill, > I'm sorry I don't even have one leaf spring. I think you will need > more then one. I have always used 2 or 3 under each bearing block as > when ever I took one apart there was always more then one. I would have > to go back to my pre war assembly sheets to see what was recommended. > Probably Ray W knows without even looking. I also think over time these > leaf springs weaken so maybe more then one better any way. > Jim H > > > > - In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > > > > With all this talk about Varney mechanisms I was wondering if anyone > > has an extra leaf spring for the pre-war Varney Consolidation. I > > picked the loco up at a meet several years ago but one of the leaf > > springs is missing. If someone has an extra that they would be > willing > > to part with, please contact me off line at my e-mail address with > your > > price. > > > > Thanks > > > > Bill DeFoe > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6905	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Gerold,                I'm going to write this answer and take a break. I now get Emails to come straight to my Email address. It allows me to spell check and make my one finger typing go faster.               I have sent copies  to HO seeker for posting including all paperwork dealing with passenger cars, but still will be glad to try to send things to you. After all you are just a stones throw across a little pond. Of course an address will be needed.              I do have some recopied sheets showing most or all types of passenger for Exacta and later  Central Lines. Be glad to copy them for you. These were not sent elsewhere yet. They might help you now.              Have you ever heard of DMC (Dallas Model Craft). They made some HO diesel engines and streamlined passenger cars some of which I have mint in O/B kits. They are a little odd as they are flat metal (not sure what type of metal but easily bendable)sheets that have the sides and roof one piece. You have to bend and shape the round roof to make the body and then finish with other included parts. Have never seen this type construction in any other HO passenger cars. Well I need a break.                                     Take Care      Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Passenger car info Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi Gerold and Gary > I didn't forget you request for info. To much going on > and then a big storm this morning where we lost power and I was > afraid maybe the computer. Thank goodness I only lost letter I was > writing. > Hi Jim, no hurry from my side - whenever, and no matter by what means you will send info, it will be appreciated. BTW, regarding your offer of sending copies by mail, be aware that I live in Vienna/ Austria... not a big deal to send things over the pond, but I feel I should mention. I am no computer wizard too, but I think with a little help you should be able to find a way to scan your pages, so all members may benefit from them. If you send xerox copies to me or anybody else for scanning, the quality will suffer. It might make sense to put pictures and info of various cars in the groups pictures section. I will browse my files what may be useful, and will start an Exacta/ Central Lines file ... hope other members will step in and fill the voids. Re Super Scale, the two pictures I attached recently are all I have; and I am not even sure if they are Super Scale. So it seems there will be no respective folder in the near future. As mentioned, I have already sent all my printed matter to Hoseeker - so I wont post this a second time to the groups files. I feel it makes more sense at Hoseeker anyway as a wider audience has access there, and maybe this may ultimately result in new information coming in. Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6906	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring

Jim and Ray, Thanks for responding to my quest for Varney leaf springs. And thanks Ray for the pointer to the typesetting spacers. Before I retired I worked in the phototypesetting industry. Now if I can just dig up an old contact that still uses letterpresses. I will also have to look again at the loco to see if there are extra springs on the other axles. Many thanks Bill DeFoe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6907	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

I do have an "International" car that's the same construction as Walthers/JC. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/87d8?b=1 It's an NYC coach, same prototype as JC No. HO-12 http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/1d54?b=3 As far as I know, it's the only passenger kit like this that they made. The sides are stamped a bit deeper than the JC car, especially evident in the vestibule doors. Early Walthers cars (pre 1958) have the sides folded under the floor and a lip at the top for the roof to sit on. Later Walthers "Silver Anniversary" cars have straight sides at the bottom and the top lip. As far as I can tell (all the cars I have I got already assembled), JC cars had flat sides Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Passenger car info > -Hi Gary, > I have gone through all my passenger cars even checking all > my kits in O/B. That includes all my Varney cars and it's catalogs > and reference books. I have only found passenger cars made by > Walthers and JC Silver Sides that match the construction materials > you have mentioned (wood floor and roof, Cast metal ends and embossed > or raised detail METAL sides and are heavyweight type cars. > Perhaps albums mentioned by Don D or one of the links provided > on passenger cars can help. A number of HO passenger companies didn't > provide trucks but Central Valley trucks were used by many companies. > Although these could have been added at a latter time. > I will now search other catalogs but so far have struck out. > Jim > > > > - In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: >> >> Hi Jim, >> >> The car has metal sides with embossed rivet detail, the window > glazing in this case now is clear styrene, however, I would imagine > when the car was first built, it the window glazing was probably > acetate, the roof and floor are wood, and the ends are metal > castings, the diaphrams are more up to date IHC diaphrams which would > mainly be found on IHC's smoothside cars, the CV trucks came with the > car, and it was a basket case, the reason I believe it to be a Varney > is simply because when I got it on ebay, it was under the Varney > listings, and the previous owner believed also it was a Varney. >> >> I also have a paper sided observation car, with wood roof and > floor, which is definately a Varney, but the coach is questionable, I > don't think its a Walthers, since I'm familiar with the typical > construction of some of the older Walthers kits, it is slightly > different, however similar to Walthers..........:o) >> >> Gary W >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6908	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

I have a few of them, courtesy of another very generous list member. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/1d54 Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Passenger car info > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for the info, until I joined this list I never knew about JC silver > sides cars, only heard about them.........:o) > > Gary W > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6909	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?

That actually looks like they used the regular Varney 14 section Pullman sides and "kit bashed" an observation out of them. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/60a1?b=20 Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ---- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:30 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Passenger Cars? > Hi Jim, > > I do have another passenger car I picked up on the cheap, its an > observation car, done in Santa Fe, it has the potential of being a > beautiful car, the undercarriage wasn't built with too much precision, as > the bolsters seem to be off a little, could be so the car could negotiate > tighter curves, I haven't really restored this one, but I do have a pair > of MDC trucks under it, and of course, Kadee couplers. > > This one has paper sides, wood roof and floor, and the vestibule end is > also wood. > > I'm attempting to send these pix via this message this time. > > Gary W > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6910	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Again Gerold,                This is what happens when your tired and trying to explain information without getting the object of discussion in front of you. Made a mistake concerning Dallas Model Craft,  When I was talking about their construction I was actually describing the construction/design of  Exacta -later Center Lines which we were talking previously about.                 The DMC (Dallas Model Craft) were streamlined passenger cars. There kits were wood ends, wood floor, wood roof. It has flat metal sides that are rounded at the bottom for streamlining. Not sure of the make up of the metal. They have details embossed but not deep. The windows are not cut out. They tell you to paint them if you don't want to cut out.There are no trucks but a few detail parts in a little bag. My cars are in original boxes with plans.This was not a well know company                 Back to Exacta - Central Valley passenger cars. I dug out our Newsletter "The Reporting Mark' from our old group HOSC&H.  There is a story from the Volume 4 Number 4 issue of July 1986  written by Dave Spanagel and Stan Knots. It describes the history of Exacta and later when sold to Central lines. It also has a numerical listing of kits. Seems they made  O, S OO, and HO gauges of all their cars. This article also includes 5 pages of copies of the sides of these cars they produced. You know the cars were made of a photo sensitive copper material that was then etched to create rivet,door, window and all other detail . The one piece bodies (sides and roof were rolled into shape and nickel plated. I only have the Budd type streamlined cars but seems they made the standard Heavyweight, Interurban, Caboose and 1898 series cars. I can copy the whole paper and send so there are no mistakes on my part.               Disregard 1st Email and use this                                                        Jim  ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Passenger car info Hi Gerold,                I'm going to write this answer and take a break. I now get Emails to come straight to my Email address. It allows me to spell check and make my one finger typing go faster.               I have sent copies  to HO seeker for posting including all paperwork dealing with passenger cars, but still will be glad to try to send things to you. After all you are just a stones throw across a little pond. Of course an address will be needed.              I do have some recopied sheets showing most or all types of passenger for Exacta and later  Central Lines. Be glad to copy them for you. These were not sent elsewhere yet. They might help you now.              Have you ever heard of DMC (Dallas Model Craft). They made some HO diesel engines and streamlined passenger cars some of which I have mint in O/B kits. They are a little odd as they are flat metal (not sure what type of metal but easily bendable)sheets that have the sides and roof one piece. You have to bend and shape the round roof to make the body and then finish with other included parts. Have never seen this type construction in any other HO passenger cars. Well I need a break.                                     Take Care      Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Passenger car info Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi Gerold and Gary > I didn't forget you request for info. To much going on > and then a big storm this morning where we lost power and I was > afraid maybe the computer. Thank goodness I only lost letter I was > writing. > Hi Jim, no hurry from my side - whenever, and no matter by what means you will send info, it will be appreciated. BTW, regarding your offer of sending copies by mail, be aware that I live in Vienna/ Austria... not a big deal to send things over the pond, but I feel I should mention. I am no computer wizard too, but I think with a little help you should be able to find a way to scan your pages, so all members may benefit from them. If you send xerox copies to me or anybody else for scanning, the quality will suffer. It might make sense to put pictures and info of various cars in the groups pictures section. I will browse my files what may be useful, and will start an Exacta/ Central Lines file ... hope other members will step in and fill the voids. Re Super Scale, the two pictures I attached recently are all I have; and I am not even sure if they are Super Scale. So it seems there will be no respective folder in the near future. As mentioned, I have already sent all my printed matter to Hoseeker - so I wont post this a second time to the groups files. I feel it makes more sense at Hoseeker anyway as a wider audience has access there, and maybe this may ultimately result in new information coming in. Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6911	From: Don Grant	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring

K&S markets sheet phosophorous bronze .008 thick.  Looks like spring copper.  Stocked by many hobby shops. Best, Don G --- On Mon, 8/11/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk <erieberk@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 2:15 PM Jim, Bill: I chose to reply to this is two parts, so as not to risk losing it (like what happened this morning with this). I don't have any extra leaf springs either, but I've improvised. If you can find an older print shop around by you, stop in and as if they have any 18 point copper Thin Spaces. These were used in letterpress to put between words when setting a line of foundry type. They are tempered copper (spring copper), as opposed to soft copper, and are ideal for this application -- so much so, that Gordon Varney may have used these very same items. There are brass ones also that can be used, and although you wouldn't need as many of the brass ones (as they're thicker -- more resistant). The brass Thin Space is 1/72" thick and the copper Thin Space is 1/144" thick (in printing, 1" = 72 points). The 18 point size I recommended is the size if the type (in height), which is exactly 1/4" (and is the width of the copper Thin Space, and the Varney leaf spring) -- And exactly the width of the recess in the frame for the bearing block, and they are 3/4" long -- which, when bent in half is 3/8" long -- exactly the same size as the Varney Leaf Spring again, in the other direction. Its like they were made to fit. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> wrote: > > --Bill, > I'm sorry I don't even have one leaf spring. I think you will need > more then one. I have always used 2 or 3 under each bearing block as > when ever I took one apart there was always more then one. I would have > to go back to my pre war assembly sheets to see what was recommended. > Probably Ray W knows without even looking. I also think over time these > leaf springs weaken so maybe more then one better any way. > Jim H > > > > - In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote: > > > > With all this talk about Varney mechanisms I was wondering if anyone > > has an extra leaf spring for the pre-war Varney Consolidation. I > > picked the loco up at a meet several years ago but one of the leaf > > springs is missing. If someone has an extra that they would be > willing > > to part with, please contact me off line at my e-mail address with > your > > price. > > > > Thanks > > > > Bill DeFoe > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6912	From: Rick Jones	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Don Dellmann wrote: > I have a few of them, courtesy of another very generous list member. > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/1d54 There's a couple of them up on eBay right now. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ If you drink Pepsi at work in the Coke factory, will they fire you?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6913	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/11/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Attachments : Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Gerold,                I'm going to write this answer and take a break. I now get Emails to come straight to my Email address. It allows me to spell check and make my one finger typing go faster.               I have sent copies  to HO seeker for posting including all paperwork dealing with passenger cars, but still will be glad to try to send things to you. After all you are just a stones throw across a little pond. Of course an address will be needed.              I do have some recopied sheets showing most or all types of passenger for Exacta and later  Central Lines. Be glad to copy them for you. These were not sent elsewhere yet. They might help you now.              Have you ever heard of DMC (Dallas Model Craft). They made some HO diesel engines and streamlined passenger cars some of which I have mint in O/B kits. They are a little odd as they are flat metal (not sure what type of metal but easily bendable)sheets that have the sides and roof one piece. You have to bend and shape the round roof to make the body and then finish with other included parts. Have never seen this type construction in any other HO passenger cars. Well I need a break.                                     Take Care      Jim H Jim, have watched a few Dallas Model Craft locos at eBay - if my memory serves me right , E type diesels? but dont remember passenger cars. Your describtion seems to indicate that they are of similar construction as the streamlined Exacta kits. Their early ones were delivered as one flat piece of copper with wooden bulkheads, later they sold the kits bent to shape, plated and with steel formers. I attach a picture of a flat kit. Wonder if there is a connection, or if Dallas Model Craft and Exacta did their kits the same way only by coincidence? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6914	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Jim, A couple of years ago, I had picked up a set of four Exacta O scale passenger cars, those, were imbossed copper with a lead backing on them, talk about hard to bend into shape! I didn't know Exacta did anything in HO scale, ya learn something new every day I guess..........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6915	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?

Hi Don, That might explain why the bolsters look like they aren't lined up correctly, the car is a good looking car, I would like to make it operational, the problem is at the moment, it will not stay on the track very well........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6916	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Don, Very generous indeed, I picked mine up off of ebay for $5.00 plus shipping, which a few years ago didn't break the bank, however, the car I got off of ebay didn't look quite as healthy as it does today........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6917	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Don, Yes they do have flat sides, the roof is milled to accept the sides under the lip, and the floor is cut to just the right width to allow the car to look right when assembled. Its definately among my favorite passenger cars, (I've always loved the heavyweights best), and naturally, the one and only JC car I have, which I mistakenly believed to be a Varney, has a special place in my heart since I did all the work to restore it to its former glory............:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6918	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: site rules for off line info

I was going to explain how to do it, but it seems you found out. <G> Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck28@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 8:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] site rules for off line info > Don, > Thank You for your post and explaining what rules should be > followed. I don't want to do the wrong thing. It's a great site > I do have one question/problem as to how to change the Yahoo > site name behind my jimheck28 to my home Email address. When I first > joined and this came up I tried to change it but couldn't. Probably > something very simple I'm missing. > Again glad you started the site. > Jim H > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6919	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Restoring Walthers cars

I have a box of several old Walthers HO passenger cars that were being thrown out of a club several years ago. They are in various stages of falling apart. I think most of them have the old wood roofs I need suggestions on what modern glue would be best to  re-assemble them with............. [That will be after the paint stripping and re-fitting of broken and missing parts.............] Thanks guys....... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6920	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Restoring Walthers cars

I use contact cement. Speaking of old Walthers cars, I've got about 25-30 heavyweights now that need gold decals (hint hint) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:26 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Restoring Walthers cars >I have a box of several old Walthers HO passenger cars that were > being thrown out of a club several years ago. > > They are in various stages of falling apart. I think most of them > have the old wood roofs > > I need suggestions on what modern glue would be best to re-assemble > them with............. > > [That will be after the paint stripping and re-fitting of broken and > missing parts.............] > > Thanks guys....... > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6921	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Hi Gerold,          Received your message and picture of the Exacta / Central Lines kit. I'm back and hopefully fresh. I assume you got my second post with the Dallas Model Craft correction. I'm starting to think I'm getting senile. All below will deal with Exacta / Central Lines          Your picture is the same as my kits. The assembly sheet in mine has Exacta's first address,  Exacta Scale Models Inc.     4215 N. Vancouver Avenue    Portland 11, Oregon and the box is second address Central Lines Manufacturing Co.   Los Gatos, California. That shows how the new owner used up old material. Exacta started in 1946  and changed to Central Lines somewhere in 1948. An interesting note in our newsletter from 1986 is that the name changed again to Super Scale in 1949.          Another fact I find interesting is the process they used to produce so many different scales."This was aided by the photo process where the scale could be changed by simply changing the focal length that was projecting the car side onto a sheet of photo sensitive copper material". Sounds neat.  Having trouble with my curser and ending this now before I lose it. Add to later                                                                                   Jim                       ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Passenger car info Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Gerold,                I'm going to write this answer and take a break. I now get Emails to come straight to my Email address. It allows me to spell check and make my one finger typing go faster.               I have sent copies  to HO seeker for posting including all paperwork dealing with passenger cars, but still will be glad to try to send things to you. After all you are just a stones throw across a little pond. Of course an address will be needed.              I do have some recopied sheets showing most or all types of passenger for Exacta and later  Central Lines. Be glad to copy them for you. These were not sent elsewhere yet. They might help you now.              Have you ever heard of DMC (Dallas Model Craft). They made some HO diesel engines and streamlined passenger cars some of which I have mint in O/B kits. They are a little odd as they are flat metal (not sure what type of metal but easily bendable)sheets that have the sides and roof one piece. You have to bend and shape the round roof to make the body and then finish with other included parts. Have never seen this type construction in any other HO passenger cars. Well I need a break.                                     Take Care      Jim H Jim, have watched a few Dallas Model Craft locos at eBay - if my memory serves me right , E type diesels? but dont remember passenger cars. Your describtion seems to indicate that they are of similar construction as the streamlined Exacta kits. Their early ones were delivered as one flat piece of copper with wooden bulkheads, later they sold the kits bent to shape, plated and with steel formers. I attach a picture of a flat kit. Wonder if there is a connection, or if Dallas Model Craft and Exacta did their kits the same way only by coincidence? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6922	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

HI,           Part 2. Something wrong with my mouse but will add to Exacta info, I hope.           Another thing I find interesting was this newsletter article seemed to suggest the Bud streamlined passenger cars were rolled into shape (one piece body included both sides and roof) " at the factory. "The complete piece was rolled into the passenger car shape and nickel plated". Yet the kits we have show that you got the flat piece of copper and had to shape it yourself. While I would guess both ways were used it shows how information available changes from 1986 to 2008. All the assembled cars I have seem to have something over the copper.          If you want this newsletter article written by Dave Spanagel and Stan Knotts I will gladly send if you supply an address to send to. My Email address is jimheck@.... While it won't all show up  the part that does should be in blue and just click there (Thanks Don D) If you don't get it that way let me know I will get it to you another.                                                                                                                          Jim H    ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Passenger car info Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Gerold,                I'm going to write this answer and take a break. I now get Emails to come straight to my Email address. It allows me to spell check and make my one finger typing go faster.               I have sent copies  to HO seeker for posting including all paperwork dealing with passenger cars, but still will be glad to try to send things to you. After all you are just a stones throw across a little pond. Of course an address will be needed.              I do have some recopied sheets showing most or all types of passenger for Exacta and later  Central Lines. Be glad to copy them for you. These were not sent elsewhere yet. They might help you now.              Have you ever heard of DMC (Dallas Model Craft). They made some HO diesel engines and streamlined passenger cars some of which I have mint in O/B kits. They are a little odd as they are flat metal (not sure what type of metal but easily bendable)sheets that have the sides and roof one piece. You have to bend and shape the round roof to make the body and then finish with other included parts. Have never seen this type construction in any other HO passenger cars. Well I need a break.                                     Take Care      Jim H Jim, have watched a few Dallas Model Craft locos at eBay - if my memory serves me right , E type diesels? but dont remember passenger cars. Your describtion seems to indicate that they are of similar construction as the streamlined Exacta kits. Their early ones were delivered as one flat piece of copper with wooden bulkheads, later they sold the kits bent to shape, plated and with steel formers. I attach a picture of a flat kit. Wonder if there is a connection, or if Dallas Model Craft and Exacta did their kits the same way only by coincidence? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6923	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: DMC ? Dallas Model Craft

Hi Gerold,                  I have to ask how you were able to send a picture to me that came into my Email address as an attachment although it seems the message/picture were posted to the vintageHO site.                  I  want to mention some things about DMC Dallas Model Craft. First their address was     Dallas Model Craft   P.O. Box 2514    Dallas Texas. Yes I went and got one of my boxes. I don't have a year for when produced  but probably late 40's early 50's.           From  what I have or info found (very little) they made 2 types of diesels. A & B FT"S. and 2 different productions of  an E unit. Speaking of the E's only each of mine has a different drive, one 4 wheel driven motor to truck by rubber connector and the other 8 wheel "O" ring drive with pulley on motor and pulley in middle of the two trucks. I have a copy of one sheet,not in front of me, that shows the assembly of one type. Our old HOSC&H newsletter described the other. Both run pretty nice. Their boxes also show a "B"  to go with the "A" but I don't have that.           I  have the 2 different runs /  productions (besides the different drives) of the "A" . One has pre printed paper sides that you glued on aluminum sheets for the sides. The second style has embossed metal sheets for the sides. Both the paper and metal sides have the Santa Fe Warbonnet scheme on them.             The metal sided "A" is the same as the passenger car sides. Embossed/Raised detail with no windows cut out. If you didn't want to cut out the windows company tells you to paint them in. Detail isn't to bad. I think they only made streamlined type passenger cars. I told you these kits have the pre formed (rolled at the bottom) metal sides with wood roofs and floor.           Well I won't bother you with more details. Just another old vintage company that many don't know about.                                                             Take Care       Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6924	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?

Gary W,                  Received your 3 pictures and message. Again I like to study it before making a snap judgment. I'm making a preliminary guess that it is Varney's PA 300 Pullman MADE into an Observation car. I have a Varney PA 300 assembled in an original box. The construction materials and window pattern fits your observation. Someone cut off the back door and built a platform ( I think). I only know of Varney making the PA 300 24 section Pullman,NO observation                   I think the description in Greenberg's Varney guide for the Pullman will match your Observation. It states "Late in 1941 the scale 80 foot Pullman appeared on the market, using the simplified Strathmore board sides".  ( my note here This was made from 3 pieces, outside was the embossed "cardboard", a clear plastic for windows was in the middle and the back was another piece of cardboard which seemed to give depth to the sides). Continuing on with the printed description.  "It was pre painted Pullman green on the outside. The roof was a monitor design, had Tenite ventilator and step castings included". It came with Varney 6 wheel passenger trucks originally but like yours could be changed.                 Again just a guess for now . Anyone out there that can identify and agrees/disagrees could save time.   Jim                       T  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:30 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Passenger Cars? Hi Jim, I do have another passenger car I picked up on the cheap, its an observation car, done in Santa Fe, it has the potential of being a beautiful car, the undercarriage wasn't built with too much precision, as the bolsters seem to be off a little, could be so the car could negotiate tighter curves, I haven't really restored this one, but I do have a pair of MDC trucks under it, and of course, Kadee couplers. This one has paper sides, wood roof and floor, and the vestibule end is also wood. I'm attempting to send these pix via this message this time. Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6925	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?

Gary,   A number off. Should say 14 section not 24. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Passenger Cars? Gary W,                  Received your 3 pictures and message. Again I like to study it before making a snap judgment. I'm making a preliminary guess that it is Varney's PA 300 Pullman MADE into an Observation car. I have a Varney PA 300 assembled in an original box. The construction materials and window pattern fits your observation. Someone cut off the back door and built a platform ( I think). I only know of Varney making the PA 300 24 section Pullman,NO observation                   I think the description in Greenberg's Varney guide for the Pullman will match your Observation. It states "Late in 1941 the scale 80 foot Pullman appeared on the market, using the simplified Strathmore board sides".  ( my note here This was made from 3 pieces, outside was the embossed "cardboard", a clear plastic for windows was in the middle and the back was another piece of cardboard which seemed to give depth to the sides). Continuing on with the printed description.  "It was pre painted Pullman green on the outside. The roof was a monitor design, had Tenite ventilator and step castings included". It came with Varney 6 wheel passenger trucks originally but like yours could be changed.                 Again just a guess for now . Anyone out there that can identify and agrees/disagrees could save time.   Jim                       T  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:30 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Passenger Cars? Hi Jim, I do have another passenger car I picked up on the cheap, its an observation car, done in Santa Fe, it has the potential of being a beautiful car, the undercarriage wasn't built with too much precision, as the bolsters seem to be off a little, could be so the car could negotiate tighter curves, I haven't really restored this one, but I do have a pair of MDC trucks under it, and of course, Kadee couplers. This one has paper sides, wood roof and floor, and the vestibule end is also wood. I'm attempting to send these pix via this message this time. Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6926	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Exacta/ Super Scale

Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi Gerold, > Received your message and picture of the Exacta / Central > Lines kit. I'm back and hopefully fresh. I assume you got my second > post with the Dallas Model Craft correction. I'm starting to think I'm > getting senile. All below will deal with Exacta / Central Lines > Your picture is the same as my kits. The assembly sheet in > mine has Exacta's first address, Exacta Scale Models Inc. 4215 N. > Vancouver Avenue Portland 11, Oregon and the box is second address > Central Lines Manufacturing Co. Los Gatos, California. That shows > how the new owner used up old material. Exacta started in 1946 and > changed to Central Lines somewhere in 1948. An interesting note in our > newsletter from 1986 is that the name changed again to Super Scale in > 1949. > Another fact I find interesting is the process they used to > produce so many different scales."This was aided by the photo process > where the scale could be changed by simply changing the focal length > that was projecting the car side onto a sheet of photo sensitive > copper material". Sounds neat. Having trouble with my curser and > ending this now before I lose it. Add to later > > Jim > > Jim, If I understand correctly, Super Scale is the same company as Exacta / Central Valley ?? Thats big news for me... I have checked my magazines and have noticed that the last ad appeared in April 1948 ; however I never noticed any ad for Super Scale. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6927	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Passenger car info

Jim Heckard wrote: HI,           Part 2. Something wrong with my mouse but will add to Exacta info, I hope.           Another thing I find interesting was this newsletter article seemed to suggest the Bud streamlined passenger cars were rolled into shape (one piece body included both sides and roof) " at the factory. "The complete piece was rolled into the passenger car shape and nickel plated". Yet the kits we have show that you got the flat piece of copper and had to shape it yourself. While I would guess both ways were used it shows how information available changes from 1986 to 2008.          If you want this newsletter article written by Dave Spanagel and Stan Knotts I will gladly send if you supply an address to send to. My Email address is jimheck@.... While it won't all show up  the part that does should be in blue and just click there (Thanks Don D) If you don't get it that way let me know I will get it to you another.                                                                                                                          Jim H    Jim,   your describtion  matches the "later" (?)  kits I have. I wonder if the sheets were rolled first, and then plated, or vice versa?  It seems that "flat" kits NEVER came plated, and "rolled" kits ALWAYS were plated. you tell "All the assembled cars I have seem to have something over the copper" - I assume few modelers had the courage to "roll" their flat kits , so the percentage of finished cars/ unbuilt kits is much better with the later, rolled kits. BTW; I definitely have an non plated car that was  built up ...a corrugated baggage car. A previous owner has painted it silver, does not look to good. I am quite sure this one started as an "flat" kit. As you are asking for my address, I have sent it to your jimheck@.... address ten hours ago, together with several pictures - please check; maybe it was caught by a spam filter? If you plan to send some info, please add the newsletter article. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6928	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Exacta/ Super Scale

Hi Gerold,     I can't find your address (yet). I've had some computer problems after 2 days of bad storms. According to the 1986 Reporting Mark story, that was the newsletter for the HO Scale Collectors and History (HOSC&H) group I belonged to, about Exacta / Central Lines there was a name change to Super Scale. I can't back that up and didn't know before hand myself. I will copy the article and send it to you or any one else interested.                      Hope the Exacta and Dallas Model Co. information interesting.                                                                                     Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:52 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Exacta/ Super Scale Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi Gerold, > Received your message and picture of the Exacta / Central > Lines kit. I'm back and hopefully fresh. I assume you got my second > post with the Dallas Model Craft correction. I'm starting to think I'm > getting senile. All below will deal with Exacta / Central Lines > Your picture is the same as my kits. The assembly sheet in > mine has Exacta's first address, Exacta Scale Models Inc. 4215 N. > Vancouver Avenue Portland 11, Oregon and the box is second address > Central Lines Manufacturing Co. Los Gatos, California. That shows > how the new owner used up old material. Exacta started in 1946 and > changed to Central Lines somewhere in 1948. An interesting note in our > newsletter from 1986 is that the name changed again to Super Scale in > 1949. > Another fact I find interesting is the process they used to > produce so many different scales."This was aided by the photo process > where the scale could be changed by simply changing the focal length > that was projecting the car side onto a sheet of photo sensitive > copper material". Sounds neat. Having trouble with my curser and > ending this now before I lose it. Add to later > > Jim > > Jim, If I understand correctly, Super Scale is the same company as Exacta / Central Valley ?? Thats big news for me... I have checked my magazines and have noticed that the last ad appeared in April 1948 ; however I never noticed any ad for Super Scale. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6929	From: rw_hinsen	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Athern metal cars

Can someone tell me if parts to these metal cars are being remade or if someone has a stock of old parts i.e. the roof walks are very fragile and many times are broken in the box as are the bolster/coupler pocket castings.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6930	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Passenger Cars?

Hi Jim, Looks like someone made an observation out of a Pullman car, not bad work really, I guess someone at some point decided they needed an end to the train, as for a car being made into another car for another use, that isn't all that un prototypical, as I'm sure the real Pullman company may have done the same thing on occasion........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6931	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Varney celluloid sided NYC paint scheme

Hi Don,           Have finally found some free time and looked at the photos. I see you have  Varney NYC colored streamlined celluloid sided passenger cars.          Year ago at a train show an elderly man was selling his collection which was mostly Varney. He didn't have many takers as I don't think a lot of people knew vintage HO. I was very fortunate to get a complete assembled 8 different car set of these. They have the big loop Mantua type old couplers. The trucks are all the same but not sure what company made by. All were in great shape with O/B's. I got each car for $5. Thought $40 for 8 completed vintage cars with trucks a good buy.         It is the only set of those cars I found.  I do have some odds and ends for the Pennsy and B&O colors but not many.  Enjoy looking at all the photos.                                   Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6932	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Restoring Walthers cars

Hi Mike, Walthers Goo is what I usually use, however, to glue the metal sides back onto old passenger cars, any good contact cement will do the trick.........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6933	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Restoring Walthers cars

Thanks Don, I guess metal to wood would be darned good with contact cement. I'll see if I can clean-up and wake up the Alps......... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 12, 2008, at 8:57 AM, Don Dellmann wrote: > I use contact cement. > > Speaking of old Walthers cars, I've got about 25-30 heavyweights now > that > need gold decals (hint hint) > > Don > >> I have a box of several old Walthers HO passenger cars that were >> being thrown out of a club several years ago. >> >> They are in various stages of falling apart. I think most of them >> have the old wood roofs >> >> I need suggestions on what modern glue would be best to re-assemble >> them with............. >> >> [That will be after the paint stripping and re-fitting of broken and >> missing parts.............] >> >> Thanks guys.......

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6934	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: DMC ? Dallas Model Craft

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:31 AM Subject: [vintageHO] DMC ? Dallas Model Craft Hi Gerold, I have to ask how you were able to send a picture to me that came into my Email address as an attachment although it seems the message/picture were posted to the vintageHO site. (text bobbitted) If you attach a photo to an email sent to the list, it will be sent to everyone who gets "daily emails". People who get "daily digests" or who read messages on line from the group website will not see them. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6935	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athern metal cars

Hi R. W. Hinsen,         This is an all-too common problem on Athearn metal cars.  You mention the roof walks and truck bolsters on the box, auto, and reefer cars.  On tank cars it’s the frames and the two similar but not identical running board braces.  I don’t know of any commercial source of these parts at present, but perhaps someone else in the group does.  (Ray W.?)  I’ve tried Frank Brua’s Park Varieties in Michigan and also English’s Hobby Shop in Pennsylvania.  Both produced post-Athearn versions of these cars, but neither stocks parts any more.  Try rummaging around local train meets in your area.  I’ve done this in Western New York and more often than you would expect found cars that might not be restorable but that are a good source for some or all of the problem parts.  Once in a while a group of parts comes up for bid on eBay, but they’re never a bargain.  Best wishes, and good hunting.                                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 8/12/08 3:23 PM, "rw_hinsen" <margaret@...> wrote:   Can someone tell me if parts to these metal cars are being remade or if someone has a stock of old parts i.e. the roof walks are very fragile and many times are broken in the box as are the bolster/coupler pocket castings.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6936	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Restoring Walthers cars

AH.......... Thanks Gary 8^) Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 12, 2008, at 4:11 PM, Gary Woodard wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Walthers Goo is what I usually use, however, to glue the metal sides > back onto old passenger cars, any good contact cement will do the > trick.........:o)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6937	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athern metal cars

If Bowser is still making these, [was a few years ago] they will have the parts available. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 12, 2008, at 5:13 PM, Louis Greiff wrote: Hi R. W. Hinsen,         This is an all-too common problem on Athearn metal cars.  You mention the roof walks and truck bolsters on the box, auto, and reefer cars.  On tank cars it’s the frames and the two similar but not identical running board braces.  I don’t know of any commercial source of these parts at present, but perhaps someone else in the group does.  (Ray W.?)  I’ve tried Frank Brua’s Park Varieties in Michigan and also English’s Hobby Shop in Pennsylvania.  Both produced post-Athearn versions of these cars, but neither stocks parts any more.  Try rummaging around local train meets in your area.  I’ve done this in Western New York and more often than you would expect found cars that might not be restorable but that are a good source for some or all of the problem parts.  Once in a while a group of parts comes up for bid on eBay, but they’re never a bargain.  Best wishes, and good hunting.                                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 8/12/08 3:23 PM, "rw_hinsen" <margaret@...> wrote:   Can someone tell me if parts to these metal cars are being remade or if someone has a stock of old parts i.e. the roof walks are very fragile and many times are broken in the box as are the bolster/coupler pocket castings.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6938	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Athern metal cars

I don't believe Bowser has anything for these cars. A few years ago, I was ordering several of these metal cars from Bowser. I was informed at that time, that they had stopped producing them and only had a limited supply left in various road names (25-30, or so). Since I had built those models when they were sold by Athearn and I believe Menzies? I liked the kits, so I bought out the remaining kits they had. At that time Mr. English came to the line and offered the tooling for the kits, as well. At a pretty steep price, I might add. Well, I had no intentions of producing the kits, just keeping myself in a good supply, so I passed on the offer. I have not heard that they started producing them again. Unfortunately, I only have a few unbuilt kits left and no extra parts. Sorry I cannot help, Brian L.     In a message dated 8/12/2008 6:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mwbauers55@... writes: If Bowser is still making these, [was a few years ago] they will have the parts available. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 12, 2008, at 5:13 PM, Louis Greiff wrote: Hi R. W. Hinsen,         This is an all-too common problem on Athearn metal cars.  You mention the roof walks and truck bolsters on the box, auto, and reefer cars.  On tank cars it’s the frames and the two similar but not identical running board braces.  I don’t know of any commercial source of these parts at present, but perhaps someone else in the group does.  (Ray W.?)  I’ve tried Frank Brua’s Park Varieties in Michigan and also English’s Hobby Shop in Pennsylvania.  Both produced post-Athearn versions of these cars, but neither stocks parts any more.  Try rummaging around local train meets in your area.  I’ve done this in Western New York and more often than you would expect found cars that might not be restorable but that are a good source for some or all of the problem parts.  Once in a while a group of parts comes up for bid on eBay, but they’re never a bargain.  Best wishes, and good hunting.                                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 8/12/08 3:23 PM, "rw_hinsen" <margaret@fidnet. com> wrote:   Can someone tell me if parts to these metal cars are being remade or if someone has a stock of old parts i.e. the roof walks are very fragile and many times are broken in the box as are the bolster/coupler pocket castings. Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6939	From: rcjge	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Post-War Mantua Atlantic

hey gentlemen: I'm hoping at Allentown in November to find a Post-War Mantua Atlantic. I was also hoping someone on the list could give me an idea of what kind of ballpark dollar wise I'd be entering into? Thanks, Gareth

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6940	From: sean naylor	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Post-War Mantua Atlantic

Hi, in kit form 250 to 350. Built ddpends on condition. 110 to 250 . The most i have seen one go for lately is 220. Sean ---------- Sent from the Cingular network using Mobile Email ------Original Message------ From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Tue, Aug 12, 2008 11:58 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Post-War Mantua Atlantic hey gentlemen: I'm hoping at Allentown in November to find a Post-War Mantua Atlantic. I was also hoping someone on the list could give me an idea of what kind of ballpark dollar wise I'd be entering into? Thanks, Gareth

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6941	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Winton Allegeheny

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                           We have been discussing passenger cars but I wanted to show you my latest work. This is one of my 150 + steam engines, a Winton Engineering 2-6-6-6 Allegheny. It is a brass kit made in early 50's. I found this kit partially built, about 10% finished. I had to rework that and build the rest. It was a real challenge. I even had to hand make some of the missing valve gear parts. It runs and pulls beautiful.  It actually called for an O gauge motor. I think it was DC -90 by Pitman. I do not intend to paint this. Like it the way it is.          I do have the other Winton engine.It is a 2-8-4 Berkshire. I built it plus painted and decaled it for the C&O like it's prototype. will send you pictureof that tomorrow. Thought you might like to see.                                                                                             Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6942	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 8/12/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny

Jim-Beautiful work-do not blame you for not covering it all up with paint!  Thanks for sharing!   Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 8:06 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Winton Allegeheny   Hi Gerold,                           We have been discussing passenger cars but I wanted to show you my latest work. This is one of my 150 + steam engines, a Winton Engineering 2-6-6-6 Allegheny. It is a brass kit made in early 50's. I found this kit partially built, about 10% finished. I had to rework that and build the rest. It was a real challenge. I even had to hand make some of the missing valve gear parts. It runs and pulls beautiful.  It actually called for an O gauge motor. I think it was DC -90 by Pitman. I do not intend to paint this. Like it the way it is.          I do have the other Winton engine.It is a 2-8-4 Berkshire. I built it plus painted and decaled it for the C&O like it's prototype. will send you pictureof that tomorrow. Thought you might like to see.                                                                                             Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6943	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid sided NYC paint scheme

Five bucks a car is good for those, I paid closer to $10 or $ 15 apiece for mine. The grey NYC cars aren't mine, I'm actually BUILDING them for another list member. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/7fd5 He sends me an unbuilt kit along with car or two for my own collection as "pay" for my efforts, I put it together and ship it back. For my own use, I have string of the blue B&O color cars (and wouldn't mind having another coach or pullman or two, already have two diners and two RPO's). I even do recreations, if I have sides, I'll use Northeastern roof and floor stock to make completed cars. (In the instructions for the cardboard side cars Varney themselves even suggests this, instead of laminating two sides together, use one on heavier clear, and save the second pair to build another car). In one case (my blue coach) I only had one side, so we scanned it, and a friend (on the list, NOT Mike) with an ALPS printer made a decal that I put on clear styrene to make the other side, it turned out reasonably well. Maybe you can answer this. On the gray cars that I'm building, most have been two tone gray with the white striping. One coach had silver stripes, which IMHO don't look as good (they certainly don't photograph as well). My 1948 catalog lists the silver stripe as "standard". Any idea when the change was made from silver to white? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney celluloid sided NYC paint scheme Hi Don, Have finally found some free time and looked at the photos. I see you have Varney NYC colored streamlined celluloid sided passenger cars. Year ago at a train show an elderly man was selling his collection which was mostly Varney. He didn't have many takers as I don't think a lot of people knew vintage HO. I was very fortunate to get a complete assembled 8 different car set of these. They have the big loop Mantua type old couplers. The trucks are all the same but not sure what company made by. All were in great shape with O/B's. I got each car for $5. Thought $40 for 8 completed vintage cars with trucks a good buy. It is the only set of those cars I found. I do have some odds and ends for the Pennsy and B&O colors but not many. Enjoy looking at all the photos. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6944	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid sided NYC paint scheme

On Aug 13, 2008, at 5:16 AM, Don Dellmann wrote: > Five bucks a car is good for those, I paid closer to $10 or $ 15 > apiece for > mine. > > The grey NYC cars aren't mine, I'm actually BUILDING them for > another list > member. > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/7fd5 > > He sends me an unbuilt kit along with car or two for my own > collection as > "pay" for my efforts, I put it together and ship it back. For my > own use, I > have string of the blue B&O color cars (and wouldn't mind having > another > coach or pullman or two, already have two diners and two RPO's). I > even do > recreations, if I have sides, I'll use Northeastern roof and floor > stock to > make completed cars. (In the instructions for the cardboard side cars > Varney themselves even suggests this, instead of laminating two sides > together, use one on heavier clear, and save the second pair to build > another car). In one case (my blue coach) I only had one side, so we > scanned it, and a friend (on the list, NOT Mike) with an ALPS > printer made a > decal that I put on clear styrene to make the other side, it turned > out > reasonably well. One of my short-list projects is to get more Alps ink-carts....... You can imagine how much better they work when you have a bunch of those...... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA > > Maybe you can answer this. On the gray cars that I'm building, > most have > been two tone gray with the white striping. One coach had silver > stripes, > which IMHO don't look as good (they certainly don't photograph as > well). My > 1948 catalog lists the silver stripe as "standard". Any idea when the > change was made from silver to white? > > Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6945	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: other Winton engine

Attachments : Hi Gerold,            As promised here are 2 pictures of the other Winton engine, a 2-8-4 Berkshire. Both Winton engines hard to find. Made between 1950- 1954. Both were originally kits you put together. These were not "shake the box assembly"    Brass parts you soldered together.           This Berkshire engine came to me as a basket case. I fully redid,painted and decaled. "The Berk" has a pulley / metal spring belt drive.            Can send you or anyone a picture of an item you might like to see.                                                                                                           Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6946	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Winton Allegeheny

I am unable to find the photos that the poster (Heckard) indicated that he sent in either Files or Photos, but at least one list member indicated that he received- most probably off list. On the Yahoo! Vintage HO website, the message includes the footnoted information that the sender submitted two photo attachments that were not saved, a reminder that all such attachments are stripped prior to publication. That said, I certainly am much interested in the Winton photos, and hope that the poster will re-submit them to Photos or Files so that all can see them. Denny S Anspach, MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6947	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny

Denny,    I sent the two pictures from my Email address to the Yahoo Vintage site, not off line (off list). You would have to ask the owner of the site as he had explained to me how this works.  They were not sent to files or Photos. It is my understanding that people that receive every message sent when sent, should have received those 2 pictures. If you would like the pictures and can't get let me know an Email for you and I'll send them.                                                                                                       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Winton Allegeheny I am unable to find the photos that the poster (Heckard) indicated that he sent in either Files or Photos, but at least one list member indicated that he received- most probably off list. On the Yahoo! Vintage HO website, the message includes the footnoted information that the sender submitted two photo attachments that were not saved, a reminder that all such attachments are stripped prior to publication. That said, I certainly am much interested in the Winton photos, and hope that the poster will re-submit them to Photos or Files so that all can see them. Denny S Anspach, MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6948	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny

I got them too..   Might be on your end Denny..   Sean --- On Wed, 8/13/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Winton Allegeheny To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 11:54 AM Denny,    I sent the two pictures from my Email address to the Yahoo Vintage site, not off line (off list). You would have to ask the owner of the site as he had explained to me how this works.  They were not sent to files or Photos. It is my understanding that people that receive every message sent when sent, should have received those 2 pictures. If you would like the pictures and can't get let me know an Email for you and I'll send them.                                                                                                       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Winton Allegeheny I am unable to find the photos that the poster (Heckard) indicated that he sent in either Files or Photos, but at least one list member indicated that he received- most probably off list. On the Yahoo! Vintage HO website, the message includes the footnoted information that the sender submitted two photo attachments that were not saved, a reminder that all such attachments are stripped prior to publication. That said, I certainly am much interested in the Winton photos, and hope that the poster will re-submit them to Photos or Files so that all can see them. Denny S Anspach, MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6949	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny

Attachments : Lennard Stewart wrote:          Hi Denny            I got them in the message that was posted so they were not stripped. But Yahoo does not save them for the ones that read messages on the group site. The only way you get them is if you get the individual emails. Hope this helps. Denny Anspach wrote: I am unable to find the photos that the poster (Heckard) indicated that he sent in either Files or Photos, but at least one list member indicated that he received- most probably off list. On the Yahoo! Vintage HO website, the message includes the footnoted information that the sender submitted two photo attachments that were not saved, a reminder that all such attachments are stripped prior to publication. That said, I certainly am much interested in the Winton photos, and hope that the poster will re-submit them to Photos or Files so that all can see them. Denny S Anspach, MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6950	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Varney Celluloid NYC

Attachments : Hi Don,             I'm answering this with a new Email as it's the only way I know how to send pictures. I looked at my 8 car set of Varney celluloid NYC color passenger cars. All mine are the 2 tone gray with WHITE strips. I'm sending 2 picture (close ups ) that I hope you receive. As I have no other of the NYC color this is the best I can provide. I really don't know what the "standard" strip color should be. I know that doesn't completely answer your question but the best I can provide.          On a slightly different note. I have 6 mint sets of this type of Varney side for the Pennsylvania colored Combine, still in plastic. I would like to send you a set as a way to say "Thanks" for explanations I had to pester you with. If you would like them give me an address off list.                                                            Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6951	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: other Winton engine

It seems to me I've read that the Winton line was also sold a bit after that under the "Ma-Ra" name. Can anyone confirm or deny? Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:58 AM Subject: [vintageHO] other Winton engine Hi Gerold, As promised here are 2 pictures of the other Winton engine, a 2-8-4 Berkshire. Both Winton engines hard to find. Made between 1950- 1954. Both were originally kits you put together. These were not "shake the box assembly" Brass parts you soldered together. This Berkshire engine came to me as a basket case. I fully redid,painted and decaled. "The Berk" has a pulley / metal spring belt drive. Can send you or anyone a picture of an item you might like to see. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6952	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny

Hi Denny, If your getting the daily digest, the photos won't show up, you need to set your account ot recieve individual emails........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6953	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Winton Allegeheny

----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Winton Allegeheny >I am unable to find the photos that the poster (Heckard) indicated > that he sent in either Files or Photos, but at least one list member > indicated that he received- most probably off list. On the Yahoo! > Vintage HO website, the message includes the footnoted information > that the sender submitted two photo attachments that were not saved, a > reminder that all such attachments are stripped prior to publication. > > That said, I certainly am much interested in the Winton photos, and > hope that the poster will re-submit them to Photos or Files so that > all can see them. > > Denny S Anspach, MD > Okoboji, IA As I've mentioned before, if photos are attached to e-mails sent to the list, the only people who will see them are those who have selected "daily emails" as their receiving option. Several years ago Yahoo stopped archiving attachments. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6954	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: other Winton engine

Hi Jim, Being one who modeled in O scale for years, I'm familiar with that type of construction as is seen on these Winton engines, they look like they were state of the art for their day for sure..........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6955	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: other Winton engine

Don,   I have to go back and read the Winton story. I don't want to make a mistake. I do know that as Winton Engineering they had 2 different California addresses (and from what I remember 2 different owners). You might be right on the Ma-Ra name but have to reread if connected later to Winton.                                 Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] other Winton engine It seems to me I've read that the Winton line was also sold a bit after that under the "Ma-Ra" name. Can anyone confirm or deny? Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:58 AM Subject: [vintageHO] other Winton engine Hi Gerold, As promised here are 2 pictures of the other Winton engine, a 2-8-4 Berkshire. Both Winton engines hard to find. Made between 1950- 1954. Both were originally kits you put together. These were not "shake the box assembly" Brass parts you soldered together. This Berkshire engine came to me as a basket case. I fully redid,painted and decaled. "The Berk" has a pulley / metal spring belt drive. Can send you or anyone a picture of an item you might like to see. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6956	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Trackside Specialties O-1

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                       Since you liked the Winton engines thought I'd share some other old and rare Vintage HO. I'm sending through the group so any one can enjoy. The below engine described is NOT one of IMP (International Model Products) nor any fancy brass company. It is American made.             This Pennsylvania O-1 electric is made by Trackside Specialties of Somerset NJ in 1965. I was lucky to find this and 2 other different Trackside Specialties items. All are made from etched copper and painted at the factory. I have a set of assembly sheets for it. The information claims only 20 pieces made.             Don't know much more about the company although I have a picture in a book of a large steam engine (I'm not sure that produce or sold) they started. I will send you pictures of the other 2 engines which are Pennsylvania type electrics too. There was 48 made of one and 50  of the other. One picture and write-up tomorrow and one the next night.                                                                                                        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6957	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Submitted photos.

It would be best that submitted photos be sent to Files or Photos for all to enjoy, rather than merely attached to the post. If this list is like others, the majority of listers are on Digest, and will not otherwise be able to view them. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6958	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties O-1

I recall seeing them advertised when they were produced. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:20 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties O-1 Hi Gerold, Since you liked the Winton engines thought I'd share some other old and rare Vintage HO. I'm sending through the group so any one can enjoy. The below engine described is NOT one of IMP (International Model Products) nor any fancy brass company. It is American made. This Pennsylvania O-1 electric is made by Trackside Specialties of Somerset NJ in 1965. I was lucky to find this and 2 other different Trackside Specialties items. All are made from etched copper and painted at the factory. I have a set of assembly sheets for it. The information claims only 20 pieces made. Don't know much more about the company although I have a picture in a book of a large steam engine (I'm not sure that produce or sold) they started. I will send you pictures of the other 2 engines which are Pennsylvania type electrics too. There was 48 made of one and 50 of the other. One picture and write-up tomorrow and one the next night. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6959	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.

Dear Mr. Ansbach,                       Since I have been sending some pictures attached to post I feel I must respond. I'm a fairly new member who was unsure of the rules to follow. I made some inquires of the owner of the site. I tried to follow those rules. One seems to be that you should not put single pictures in the files section. As for submitting to the photos section I am not very computer literate. I am a little unsure as how to create an album and get the photos to that album. I have enough problems taking decent photographs with a digital camera let alone creating an album, copy from one place to another, paste it there and submit to the photo album . I had learned to take pictures and send to an individuals Email address if ask. That way in the Email part I can write a short narrative about the picture's background. I just learned that you could post them through the yahoo vintage HO site. I have been doing that so others could see them even though the pictures and write ups are meant for an individual member. I should have sent them to his private address and there would be no problem. I tried to share some knowledge with others.               While I don't know of other list working the way you receive your messages, I did what I thought best and easiest for me to do. I apologize for the problem but I sent you a message that if you didn't get the pictures I would send them to you. If you want the pictures or would like an album I will carbon copy all to you (if private Emailaddress provided) and you could do as you wish.           I'm not trying to be smart. I have over 700 items and don't intend to send all. and since I'm on a telephone internet service, not DSL, I don't have all that time. I guess it will be best to send direct anymore so as not to cause hard feelings.                                                                                                                      Sincerely,                 Jim Heckard                  ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: Vintage HO Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. It would be best that submitted photos be sent to Files or Photos for all to enjoy, rather than merely attached to the post. If this list is like others, the majority of listers are on Digest, and will not otherwise be able to view them. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6960	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos.

Jim, Please keep posting them to the group.  We can get them into the photos section soon. Thanks for sending them.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos.   Dear Mr. Ansbach,                       Since I have been sending some pictures attached to post I feel I must respond. I'm a fairly new member who was unsure of the rules to follow. I made some inquires of the owner of the site. I tried to follow those rules. One seems to be that you should not put single pictures in the files section. As for submitting to the photos section I am not very computer literate. I am a little unsure as how to create an album and get the photos to that album. I have enough problems taking decent photographs with a digital camera let alone creating an album, copy from one place to another, paste it there and submit to the photo album . I had learned to take pictures and send to an individuals Email address if ask. That way in the Email part I can write a short narrative about the picture's background. I just learned that you could post them through the yahoo vintage HO site. I have been doing that so others could see them even though the pictures and write ups are meant for an individual member. I should have sent them to his private address and there would be no problem. I tried to share some knowledge with others.               While I don't know of other list working the way you receive your messages, I did what I thought best and easiest for me to do. I apologize for the problem but I sent you a message that if you didn't get the pictures I would send them to you. If you want the pictures or would like an album I will carbon copy all to you (if private Emailaddress provided) and you could do as you wish.           I'm not trying to be smart. I have over 700 items and don't intend to send all. and since I'm on a telephone internet service, not DSL, I don't have all that time. I guess it will be best to send direct anymore so as not to cause hard feelings.                                                                                                                      Sincerely,                 Jim Heckard                  ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: Vintage HO Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Submitted photos.   It would be best that submitted photos be sent to Files or Photos for all to enjoy, rather than merely attached to the post. If this list is like others, the majority of listers are on Digest, and will not otherwise be able to view them. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji , IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6961	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties O-1

Don,            There were things about Trackside Specialties in RMC. It included a picture in  that album where they showed products and gave you information about the item. (Loco Builders Photos)  I forget the issue but remember that picture was a Trackside Specialties Pennsylvania P5-a Electric, which is another of the engines I have. This was to be sent in a post tomorrow.        Our old HOSC&H groups newsletter had information from others sources all compiled in one article also. While I have no reason not to believe it I can't verify it all.         You can't believe the written HO material from many sources I have to go through. I don't have an index for any of it. It's very hard to type all the information I have. I do the best I can. Maybe it would be best to stop it all.         On another note I packaged two sets of those Varney celluloid sides for you and will mail out tomorrow.                                                                                                                                        Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:01 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties O-1 I recall seeing them advertised when they were produced. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:20 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties O-1 Hi Gerold, Since you liked the Winton engines thought I'd share some other old and rare Vintage HO. I'm sending through the group so any one can enjoy. The below engine described is NOT one of IMP (International Model Products) nor any fancy brass company. It is American made. This Pennsylvania O-1 electric is made by Trackside Specialties of Somerset NJ in 1965. I was lucky to find this and 2 other different Trackside Specialties items. All are made from etched copper and painted at the factory. I have a set of assembly sheets for it. The information claims only 20 pieces made. Don't know much more about the company although I have a picture in a book of a large steam engine (I'm not sure that produce or sold) they started. I will send you pictures of the other 2 engines which are Pennsylvania type electrics too. There was 48 made of one and 50 of the other. One picture and write-up tomorrow and one the next night. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6962	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.

Hi Denny, As a group owner myself, I don't allow attachments on my groups, however, for the groups that do, it hasn't really been a problem, except that those few who actually recieve their messages via daily digest or look only through the group site. I can move my pix into the photo section as well, not a problem there, I now belong to two lists that don't want you using the files section for photos, which is fine, its all up to the list owner as to how he/she wants to run their list........:o) Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6963	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.

Creating an album is fairly simple. Just go to the photos section, near the upper right hand corner you'll see a link "create album". Click on that a window will open where you type in the album name and description, and whether just you or anyone can add photos. Then hit "continue" and it will bring up the "add photos" page. Click on the first "browse" and you can then search your hard drive for the photo you want. When you have it, hit "enter" then type a name or description if you wish and go to the next one. When you're done (you can do up to 6 at a time), click on "upload photos". When it's finished uploading, you're done. To add more pictures, just go into the album and click on "add photos" and it will bring up that same window again. The only thing you CAN'T do is delete photos, for some strange reason when Yahoo revised the photo section a couple years ago they took that option away. You can delete the entire album, but to delete an individual photo you have to tell me which one to take out and I have to delete it. You're right, I prefer photos is the photos section, and files in the files section, and I encourage sharing photos by email if it's just in response to a specific question. The photo space and file space allocated to us is, while large, still finite, and someday we will fill it up. When that happens, I'll have to delete some, or, as some owners have done, start a second auxiliary group just to store more pictures :-). (And I probably have more albums and pictures of my own "stuff" up there than anybody, but it IS "my" group <G> {but please don't take that as discouraging photos, One of the main reasons the group exists is to show off our collections in the hope that someone else will find them interesting}). In an ideal world, everyone would get individual emails, but I realize that's impractical if one belongs to a lot of groups ( I delete a couple hundred emails a day I never read, just because I'm on so many lists, a couple of which produce a hundred emails a day), or Yahoo would archive the pictures like they used to, but it is an imperfect world, and, afterall, this service IS free, so we make do with what we have. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Dear Mr. Ansbach, Since I have been sending some pictures attached to post I feel I must respond. I'm a fairly new member who was unsure of the rules to follow. I made some inquires of the owner of the site. I tried to follow those rules. One seems to be that you should not put single pictures in the files section. As for submitting to the photos section I am not very computer literate. I am a little unsure as how to create an album and get the photos to that album. I have enough problems taking decent photographs with a digital camera let alone creating an album, copy from one place to another, paste it there and submit to the photo album . I had learned to take pictures and send to an individuals Email address if ask. That way in the Email part I can write a short narrative about the picture's background. I just learned that you could post them through the yahoo vintage HO site. I have been doing that so others could see them even though the pictures and write ups are meant for an individual member. I should have sent them to his private address and there would be no problem. I tried to share some knowledge with others. While I don't know of other list working the way you receive your messages, I did what I thought best and easiest for me to do. I apologize for the problem but I sent you a message that if you didn't get the pictures I would send them to you. If you want the pictures or would like an album I will carbon copy all to you (if private Emailaddress provided) and you could do as you wish. I'm not trying to be smart. I have over 700 items and don't intend to send all. and since I'm on a telephone internet service, not DSL, I don't have all that time. I guess it will be best to send direct anymore so as not to cause hard feelings. Sincerely, Jim Heckard ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: Vintage HO Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. It would be best that submitted photos be sent to Files or Photos for all to enjoy, rather than merely attached to the post. If this list is like others, the majority of listers are on Digest, and will not otherwise be able to view them. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6964	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Sampson pass cars

H'lo All..apologies for belated post on pass. cars...have been bogged down in a contract job for a couple of weeks, only just finished and able to sit and read my overflowing mailbox...   I was interested in the back and forth on old passenger cars...didn't see a mention of Sampson...I found one at auction...wood roof and floor, brass laminated (!) sides and brass ends...I posted a .jpg of the instruction sheet to Larry at HO-Seeker, but that's the only info I have.   Does anyone have any information on Sampson, or any of their cars?   Wonderful source of info in your posts, btw...am enjoying the dialog, albeit mostly in lurking mode! Chrs! Russ   Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6965	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/13/2008
Subject: Re: Sampson pass cars

About five minutes before I saw this, I made a new album "zDon Dellmann's Stuff/Sampson" and moved pictures of the three Sampson cars I've finished from my miscellaneous passenger album. The ones I have had an extruded body, much like a Kasiner or Herkimer, but instead of aluminum they were actually an aluminum magnesium alloy (the same stuff "mag wheels" on our "muscle cars" were made of) and white metal ends. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/browse/fe85 Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Shiel" <rshiel01@...> To: <vintageHO@...> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:26 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Sampson pass cars H'lo All..apologies for belated post on pass. cars...have been bogged down in a contract job for a couple of weeks, only just finished and able to sit and read my overflowing mailbox... I was interested in the back and forth on old passenger cars...didn't see a mention of Sampson...I found one at auction...wood roof and floor, brass laminated (!) sides and brass ends...I posted a .jpg of the instruction sheet to Larry at HO-Seeker, but that's the only info I have. Does anyone have any information on Sampson, or any of their cars? Wonderful source of info in your posts, btw...am enjoying the dialog, albeit mostly in lurking mode! Chrs! Russ Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6966	From: erieberk	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Sampson pass cars

Hi Russ, Good to hear from you again. Thanks again for your input with New One Model Works when we were discussing International, Tenshodo, Takara, etc., back in February. Hope to hear more from you soon (overdue <g>). Of necessity, I'll have to make this short because of increasing 'puter problems (reason why I haven't been posting the last few days), but will have a lot of catching up to do when I get my next computer, coming (expected) soon. Will then have to go back over all the subjects now in discussion. For now, I noticed your post on Sampson, but unless they drastically changed their construction methods and materials somewhere along the line, which I was unaware of, this manufacturer did not use brass sides with a wood roof and floor, to the best of my knowledge. Again, the possibility of them changing there engineering for their kits is still there, but I would think rather remote. Do you have yours in original boxes with instructions? I would like to hear more on this. I have their complete line of full length corregated side streamliners, which are made of one-piece extruded magnesium with a wood floor. They made shorties in this style also, as well as full length smooth side streamliners -- all in one-piece extruded magnesium. Catalog numbers (full length corregated side): SL- 9 Vista Dome, SL- 10 Baggage-Club-Lounge, SL-11 Tavern-Observation, SL-12 Coach, SL-13 Diner, SL-14 Observation, SL-15 Baggage-Tavern-Lounge, SL-16 Baggage Mail, SL-17 Vista Dome Coach, SL-18 Baggage, SL-19 4-Bedroom/6- Roomette, SL-20 6-Bedroom/10-Roomette. The Streamliners were numbered in the 100 Series and the Shorties were numbered in the single digets. Best regards, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote: > > H'lo All..apologies for belated post on pass. cars...have been bogged down in a contract job for a couple of weeks, only just finished and able to sit and read my overflowing mailbox... > I was interested in the back and forth on old passenger cars...didn't see a mention of Sampson...I found one at auction...wood roof and floor, brass laminated (!) sides and brass ends...I posted a .jpg of the instruction sheet to Larry at HO- Seeker, but that's the only info I have. > Does anyone have any information on Sampson, or any of their cars? > Wonderful source of info in your posts, btw...am enjoying the dialog, albeit mostly in lurking mode! > > Chrs! Russ > > > Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6967	From: erieberk	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Sampson pass cars

Just a quick correction/addition -- that last part should have read -- SMOOTH SIDE Streamliners were numbered in the 100 Series. Can't go into any more detail, I just got done writing this a few minutes ago, with all the Smooth Side kit numbers, but lost it. What a royal pain in the A. All for now, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Hi Russ, Good to hear from you again. Thanks again for your input > with New One Model Works when we were discussing International, > Tenshodo, Takara, etc., back in February. Hope to hear more from you > soon (overdue <g>). Of necessity, I'll have to make this short > because of increasing 'puter problems (reason why I haven't been > posting the last few days), but will have a lot of catching up to do > when I get my next computer, coming (expected) soon. Will then have > to go back over all the subjects now in discussion. > > For now, I noticed your post on Sampson, but unless they drastically > changed their construction methods and materials somewhere along the > line, which I was unaware of, this manufacturer did not use brass > sides with a wood roof and floor, to the best of my knowledge. > Again, the possibility of them changing there engineering for their > kits is still there, but I would think rather remote. Do you have > yours in original boxes with instructions? I would like to hear more > on this. > > I have their complete line of full length corregated side > streamliners, which are made of one-piece extruded magnesium with a > wood floor. They made shorties in this style also, as well as full > length smooth side streamliners -- all in one-piece extruded > magnesium. > > Catalog numbers (full length corregated side): SL- 9 Vista Dome, SL- > 10 Baggage-Club-Lounge, SL-11 Tavern-Observation, SL-12 Coach, SL- 13 > Diner, SL-14 Observation, SL-15 Baggage-Tavern-Lounge, SL-16 Baggage > Mail, SL-17 Vista Dome Coach, SL-18 Baggage, SL-19 4-Bedroom/6- > Roomette, SL-20 6-Bedroom/10-Roomette. The Streamliners were > numbered in the 100 Series and the Shorties were numbered in the > single digets. Best regards, Ray W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@> wrote: > > > > H'lo All..apologies for belated post on pass. cars...have been > bogged down in a contract job for a couple of weeks, only just > finished and able to sit and read my overflowing mailbox... > > I was interested in the back and forth on old passenger > cars...didn't see a mention of Sampson...I found one at > auction...wood roof and floor, brass laminated (!) sides and brass > ends...I posted a .jpg of the instruction sheet to Larry at HO- > Seeker, but that's the only info I have. > > Does anyone have any information on Sampson, or any of their cars? > > Wonderful source of info in your posts, btw...am enjoying the > dialog, albeit mostly in lurking mode! > > > > Chrs! Russ > > > > > > Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6968	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: erroneous Sampson pass cars

Thanks for the welcome back Ray!...trust you to correct my old-timer's (or dyslexia??)...a Sampson car on one side, and a Motive Power Industries on the other, and yes, wiping egg off face, the laminated brass sides belong to the Motive Power car, which came with wood roof and floor, brass bulkheads and ends...the end of the flat white box is labelled 'Club Combine',   I would appreciate any information on the manufacturer...Motive Power Industries of Old Saybrook, CT...such as approximate vintage.   Now, can I rephrase that?...anybody have a Motive Power car (assembled)? Or has built one? The instructions recommend a propane torch to sweat solder the window backing brass sheet to the rivetted sides, but I wondered if the modern epoxies or ACC's would do the same job... I have numerous questions on Red Ball and early card-sided cars, but will save these for another day...   Good wishes from the middle of winter! Snow in the Adelaide Hills?! Climate change??? Chrs, Russ       Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6969	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.

Don,          I will stop sending pictures with post so as not to create any problems. The reason I chose to do it that way is so I could write a "narrative" in the Email section to send along with the pictures. I have no problem following the rules. Belonging to different groups with different rules doesn't help.        On another note I mailed those celluloid Varney sides out this morning to you.   Gerold,         I will continue to send pictures directly to your Email address as per your request to see and learn  the information. I will send the second Trackside Specialties item (Pennsy P-5a)  and info to you .I did mail the Exacta info and article out to you today. Watch for it.   Chuck,        Thanks for creating the album and putting the pictures in it. I will stop posting the pictures through the Yahoo Vintage site. If you still want them I will CC them to you when sent to individuals, who have ask, and you can put in the album. Since you know the problems I am facing (between us) I will be glad to do it this way. Don't want to take up your time . Let me know how to proceed.   Walter B,           Will copy the Exacta info you ask for and send out ASAP.           Sorry I had to  answer a number of things with same post. Just a little easier.                                                                                                                                        Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Creating an album is fairly simple. Just go to the photos section, near the upper right hand corner you'll see a link "create album". Click on that a window will open where you type in the album name and description, and whether just you or anyone can add photos. Then hit "continue" and it will bring up the "add photos" page. Click on the first "browse" and you can then search your hard drive for the photo you want. When you have it, hit "enter" then type a name or description if you wish and go to the next one. When you're done (you can do up to 6 at a time), click on "upload photos". When it's finished uploading, you're done. To add more pictures, just go into the album and click on "add photos" and it will bring up that same window again. The only thing you CAN'T do is delete photos, for some strange reason when Yahoo revised the photo section a couple years ago they took that option away. You can delete the entire album, but to delete an individual photo you have to tell me which one to take out and I have to delete it. You're right, I prefer photos is the photos section, and files in the files section, and I encourage sharing photos by email if it's just in response to a specific question. The photo space and file space allocated to us is, while large, still finite, and someday we will fill it up. When that happens, I'll have to delete some, or, as some owners have done, start a second auxiliary group just to store more pictures :-). (And I probably have more albums and pictures of my own "stuff" up there than anybody, but it IS "my" group <G> {but please don't take that as discouraging photos, One of the main reasons the group exists is to show off our collections in the hope that someone else will find them interesting} ). In an ideal world, everyone would get individual emails, but I realize that's impractical if one belongs to a lot of groups ( I delete a couple hundred emails a day I never read, just because I'm on so many lists, a couple of which produce a hundred emails a day), or Yahoo would archive the pictures like they used to, but it is an imperfect world, and, afterall, this service IS free, so we make do with what we have. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Dear Mr. Ansbach, Since I have been sending some pictures attached to post I feel I must respond. I'm a fairly new member who was unsure of the rules to follow. I made some inquires of the owner of the site. I tried to follow those rules. One seems to be that you should not put single pictures in the files section. As for submitting to the photos section I am not very computer literate. I am a little unsure as how to create an album and get the photos to that album. I have enough problems taking decent photographs with a digital camera let alone creating an album, copy from one place to another, paste it there and submit to the photo album . I had learned to take pictures and send to an individuals Email address if ask. That way in the Email part I can write a short narrative about the picture's background. I just learned that you could post them through the yahoo vintage HO site. I have been doing that so others could see them even though the pictures and write ups are meant for an individual member. I should have sent them to his private address and there would be no problem. I tried to share some knowledge with others. While I don't know of other list working the way you receive your messages, I did what I thought best and easiest for me to do. I apologize for the problem but I sent you a message that if you didn't get the pictures I would send them to you. If you want the pictures or would like an album I will carbon copy all to you (if private Emailaddress provided) and you could do as you wish. I'm not trying to be smart. I have over 700 items and don't intend to send all. and since I'm on a telephone internet service, not DSL, I don't have all that time. I guess it will be best to send direct anymore so as not to cause hard feelings. Sincerely, Jim Heckard ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: Vintage HO Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. It would be best that submitted photos be sent to Files or Photos for all to enjoy, rather than merely attached to the post. If this list is like others, the majority of listers are on Digest, and will not otherwise be able to view them. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6970	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.

Sending pics as email attachments is NOT a problem, it's just that not all members can see them. What I often do is send a picture of my latest acquisition if it's something unusual before I get around to putting it in an album. Don't get all hung up on "rules". My "rules" are just guidelines to insure that everyone can enjoy the benefits here to the maximum. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Don, I will stop sending pictures with post so as not to create any problems. The reason I chose to do it that way is so I could write a "narrative" in the Email section to send along with the pictures. I have no problem following the rules. Belonging to different groups with different rules doesn't help. On another note I mailed those celluloid Varney sides out this morning to you. Gerold, I will continue to send pictures directly to your Email address as per your request to see and learn the information. I will send the second Trackside Specialties item (Pennsy P-5a) and info to you .I did mail the Exacta info and article out to you today. Watch for it. Chuck, Thanks for creating the album and putting the pictures in it. I will stop posting the pictures through the Yahoo Vintage site. If you still want them I will CC them to you when sent to individuals, who have ask, and you can put in the album. Since you know the problems I am facing (between us) I will be glad to do it this way. Don't want to take up your time . Let me know how to proceed. Walter B, Will copy the Exacta info you ask for and send out ASAP. Sorry I had to answer a number of things with same post. Just a little easier. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Creating an album is fairly simple. Just go to the photos section, near the upper right hand corner you'll see a link "create album". Click on that a window will open where you type in the album name and description, and whether just you or anyone can add photos. Then hit "continue" and it will bring up the "add photos" page. Click on the first "browse" and you can then search your hard drive for the photo you want. When you have it, hit "enter" then type a name or description if you wish and go to the next one. When you're done (you can do up to 6 at a time), click on "upload photos". When it's finished uploading, you're done. To add more pictures, just go into the album and click on "add photos" and it will bring up that same window again. The only thing you CAN'T do is delete photos, for some strange reason when Yahoo revised the photo section a couple years ago they took that option away. You can delete the entire album, but to delete an individual photo you have to tell me which one to take out and I have to delete it. You're right, I prefer photos is the photos section, and files in the files section, and I encourage sharing photos by email if it's just in response to a specific question. The photo space and file space allocated to us is, while large, still finite, and someday we will fill it up. When that happens, I'll have to delete some, or, as some owners have done, start a second auxiliary group just to store more pictures :-). (And I probably have more albums and pictures of my own "stuff" up there than anybody, but it IS "my" group <G> {but please don't take that as discouraging photos, One of the main reasons the group exists is to show off our collections in the hope that someone else will find them interesting}). In an ideal world, everyone would get individual emails, but I realize that's impractical if one belongs to a lot of groups ( I delete a couple hundred emails a day I never read, just because I'm on so many lists, a couple of which produce a hundred emails a day), or Yahoo would archive the pictures like they used to, but it is an imperfect world, and, afterall, this service IS free, so we make do with what we have. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Dear Mr. Ansbach, Since I have been sending some pictures attached to post I feel I must respond. I'm a fairly new member who was unsure of the rules to follow. I made some inquires of the owner of the site. I tried to follow those rules. One seems to be that you should not put single pictures in the files section. As for submitting to the photos section I am not very computer literate. I am a little unsure as how to create an album and get the photos to that album. I have enough problems taking decent photographs with a digital camera let alone creating an album, copy from one place to another, paste it there and submit to the photo album . I had learned to take pictures and send to an individuals Email address if ask. That way in the Email part I can write a short narrative about the picture's background. I just learned that you could post them through the yahoo vintage HO site. I have been doing that so others could see them even though the pictures and write ups are meant for an individual member. I should have sent them to his private address and there would be no problem. I tried to share some knowledge with others. While I don't know of other list working the way you receive your messages, I did what I thought best and easiest for me to do. I apologize for the problem but I sent you a message that if you didn't get the pictures I would send them to you. If you want the pictures or would like an album I will carbon copy all to you (if private Emailaddress provided) and you could do as you wish. I'm not trying to be smart. I have over 700 items and don't intend to send all. and since I'm on a telephone internet service, not DSL, I don't have all that time. I guess it will be best to send direct anymore so as not to cause hard feelings. Sincerely, Jim Heckard ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: Vintage HO Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. It would be best that submitted photos be sent to Files or Photos for all to enjoy, rather than merely attached to the post. If this list is like others, the majority of listers are on Digest, and will not otherwise be able to view them. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6971	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.

Hopefully problem solved. Chuck Higdon has graciously open an album and is posting the pictures in it for all to see. THANKS CHUCK.                                                    Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Sending pics as email attachments is NOT a problem, it's just that not all members can see them. What I often do is send a picture of my latest acquisition if it's something unusual before I get around to putting it in an album. Don't get all hung up on "rules". My "rules" are just guidelines to insure that everyone can enjoy the benefits here to the maximum. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Don, I will stop sending pictures with post so as not to create any problems. The reason I chose to do it that way is so I could write a "narrative" in the Email section to send along with the pictures. I have no problem following the rules. Belonging to different groups with different rules doesn't help. On another note I mailed those celluloid Varney sides out this morning to you. Gerold, I will continue to send pictures directly to your Email address as per your request to see and learn the information. I will send the second Trackside Specialties item (Pennsy P-5a) and info to you .I did mail the Exacta info and article out to you today. Watch for it. Chuck, Thanks for creating the album and putting the pictures in it. I will stop posting the pictures through the Yahoo Vintage site. If you still want them I will CC them to you when sent to individuals, who have ask, and you can put in the album. Since you know the problems I am facing (between us) I will be glad to do it this way. Don't want to take up your time . Let me know how to proceed. Walter B, Will copy the Exacta info you ask for and send out ASAP. Sorry I had to answer a number of things with same post. Just a little easier. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Creating an album is fairly simple. Just go to the photos section, near the upper right hand corner you'll see a link "create album". Click on that a window will open where you type in the album name and description, and whether just you or anyone can add photos. Then hit "continue" and it will bring up the "add photos" page. Click on the first "browse" and you can then search your hard drive for the photo you want. When you have it, hit "enter" then type a name or description if you wish and go to the next one. When you're done (you can do up to 6 at a time), click on "upload photos". When it's finished uploading, you're done. To add more pictures, just go into the album and click on "add photos" and it will bring up that same window again. The only thing you CAN'T do is delete photos, for some strange reason when Yahoo revised the photo section a couple years ago they took that option away. You can delete the entire album, but to delete an individual photo you have to tell me which one to take out and I have to delete it. You're right, I prefer photos is the photos section, and files in the files section, and I encourage sharing photos by email if it's just in response to a specific question. The photo space and file space allocated to us is, while large, still finite, and someday we will fill it up. When that happens, I'll have to delete some, or, as some owners have done, start a second auxiliary group just to store more pictures :-). (And I probably have more albums and pictures of my own "stuff" up there than anybody, but it IS "my" group <G> {but please don't take that as discouraging photos, One of the main reasons the group exists is to show off our collections in the hope that someone else will find them interesting} ). In an ideal world, everyone would get individual emails, but I realize that's impractical if one belongs to a lot of groups ( I delete a couple hundred emails a day I never read, just because I'm on so many lists, a couple of which produce a hundred emails a day), or Yahoo would archive the pictures like they used to, but it is an imperfect world, and, afterall, this service IS free, so we make do with what we have. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. Dear Mr. Ansbach, Since I have been sending some pictures attached to post I feel I must respond. I'm a fairly new member who was unsure of the rules to follow. I made some inquires of the owner of the site. I tried to follow those rules. One seems to be that you should not put single pictures in the files section. As for submitting to the photos section I am not very computer literate. I am a little unsure as how to create an album and get the photos to that album. I have enough problems taking decent photographs with a digital camera let alone creating an album, copy from one place to another, paste it there and submit to the photo album . I had learned to take pictures and send to an individuals Email address if ask. That way in the Email part I can write a short narrative about the picture's background. I just learned that you could post them through the yahoo vintage HO site. I have been doing that so others could see them even though the pictures and write ups are meant for an individual member. I should have sent them to his private address and there would be no problem. I tried to share some knowledge with others. While I don't know of other list working the way you receive your messages, I did what I thought best and easiest for me to do. I apologize for the problem but I sent you a message that if you didn't get the pictures I would send them to you. If you want the pictures or would like an album I will carbon copy all to you (if private Emailaddress provided) and you could do as you wish. I'm not trying to be smart. I have over 700 items and don't intend to send all. and since I'm on a telephone internet service, not DSL, I don't have all that time. I guess it will be best to send direct anymore so as not to cause hard feelings. Sincerely, Jim Heckard ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: Vintage HO Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Submitted photos. It would be best that submitted photos be sent to Files or Photos for all to enjoy, rather than merely attached to the post. If this list is like others, the majority of listers are on Digest, and will not otherwise be able to view them. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6972	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Trackside Specialties P5a

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                  This is the second type of electrics produced by Trackside Specialties that I have. This is the Pennsylvania P5a. I have a lot more information on this model to share. According to the paperwork this is a 2-C-2 box cab with P5a classification. I will attempt to write correctly the following. The instructions list their address as Somerset NJ. (A picture I have of a Pennsylvania 2-8-8-0 they were to have produced  shows a different address   662 Barnes Avenue. Baldwin Long Island N.Y.  This fact interesting to me as the FAMOCO [ Famous Model Company ]  has a Baldwin L.I., N.Y. address )                 This HO model was made in 1958. A picture and small write-up appeared in the June 1967 issue of RMC. It is Loco Builders Photo    320.  I know for a fact they came in a kit and assembled pre painted. The one I'm showing is pre painted. I had one in kit form but a close friend wanted it and we made a trade.                  The photo supporting description states " Limited run model  with Andeco mechanism and Pittman 5 pole motor, photo engraved shell with lost wax casting ends assembled and drilled.. Frames, End Platforms, Pilot Guard, railings and small details are lost wax castings. Pilot trucks were lost wax castings with Cliff Line RP-25 wheels.                   My information said between all kits and assembled painted models only  48 pieces made. Well I could add more but my 1 finger sore from typing. Last TS electric type, a B-1 "Rat", tomorrow.                                                         Regards             Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6973	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Submitted photos.

Jim I am just one person but you did not offend me the only way I usually get to see some of the things you peeps have is by the way  you did it, I have limiited time for internet here at the library, so I can not go into the Group and check out all of  the great pictures. Hope I did not offend anyone I just enjoy reading the posts and occasionally replying to ones I think I know something about, or need to be replyed to. Thanks Charlie (X) W.   -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6974	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a

Was this the same "Trackside Specialties" that the late Vince Waterman ran? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties P5a Hi Gerold,                  This is the second type of electrics produced by Trackside Specialties that I have. This is the Pennsylvania P5a. I have a lot more information on this model to share. According to the paperwork this is a 2-C-2 box cab with P5a classification. I will attempt to write correctly the following. The instructions list their address as Somerset NJ. (A picture I have of a Pennsylvania 2-8-8-0 they were to have produced  shows a different address   662 Barnes Avenue. Baldwin Long Island N.Y.  This fact interesting to me as the FAMOCO [ Famous Model Company ]  has a Baldwin L.I., N.Y. address )                 This HO model was made in 1958. A picture and small write-up appeared in the June 1967 issue of RMC. It is Loco Builders Photo    320.  I know for a fact they came in a kit and assembled pre painted. The one I'm showing is pre painted. I had one in kit form but a close friend wanted it and we made a trade.                  The photo supporting description states " Limited run model  with Andeco mechanism and Pittman 5 pole motor, photo engraved shell with lost wax casting ends assembled and drilled.. Frames, End Platforms, Pilot Guard, railings and small details are lost wax castings. Pilot trucks were lost wax castings with Cliff Line RP-25 wheels.                   My information said between all kits and assembled painted models only  48 pieces made. Well I could add more but my 1 finger sore from typing. Last TS electric type, a B-1 "Rat", tomorrow.                                                         Regards             Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6975	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a

You have me stumped on that. I had never heard who the owner was and I have no information. If I go back through some other things I might come across it. I'd be glad to le you know if I find out.                                                       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties P5a Was this the same "Trackside Specialties" that the late Vince Waterman ran? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties P5a Hi Gerold,                  This is the second type of electrics produced by Trackside Specialties that I have. This is the Pennsylvania P5a. I have a lot more information on this model to share. According to the paperwork this is a 2-C-2 box cab with P5a classification. I will attempt to write correctly the following. The instructions list their address as Somerset NJ. (A picture I have of a Pennsylvania 2-8-8-0 they were to have produced  shows a different address   662 Barnes Avenue. Baldwin Long Island N.Y.  This fact interesting to me as the FAMOCO [ Famous Model Company ]  has a Baldwin L.I., N.Y. address )                 This HO model was made in 1958. A picture and small write-up appeared in the June 1967 issue of RMC. It is Loco Builders Photo    320.  I know for a fact they came in a kit and assembled pre painted. The one I'm showing is pre painted. I had one in kit form but a close friend wanted it and we made a trade.                  The photo supporting description states " Limited run model  with Andeco mechanism and Pittman 5 pole motor, photo engraved shell with lost wax casting ends assembled and drilled.. Frames, End Platforms, Pilot Guard, railings and small details are lost wax castings. Pilot trucks were lost wax castings with Cliff Line RP-25 wheels.                   My information said between all kits and assembled painted models only  48 pieces made. Well I could add more but my 1 finger sore from typing. Last TS electric type, a B-1 "Rat", tomorrow.                                                         Regards             Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6976	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties P5a

thanks.  Problem is, some names are generic enough and logical enough that they get used by many.  I used to see Vince at O Scale meets and buy parts from him.  He used to buy up leftover parts inventories form the importers.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties P5a You have me stumped on that. I had never heard who the owner was and I have no information. If I go back through some other things I might come across it. I'd be glad to le you know if I find out.                                                       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties P5a Was this the same "Trackside Specialties" that the late Vince Waterman ran? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:24 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties P5a Hi Gerold,                  This is the second type of electrics produced by Trackside Specialties that I have. This is the Pennsylvania P5a. I have a lot more information on this model to share. According to the paperwork this is a 2-C-2 box cab with P5a classification. I will attempt to write correctly the following. The instructions list their address as Somerset NJ. (A picture I have of a Pennsylvania 2-8-8-0 they were to have produced  shows a different address   662 Barnes Avenue. Baldwin Long Island N.Y.  This fact interesting to me as the FAMOCO [ Famous Model Company ]  has a Baldwin L.I., N.Y. address )                 This HO model was made in 1958. A picture and small write-up appeared in the June 1967 issue of RMC. It is Loco Builders Photo    320.  I know for a fact they came in a kit and assembled pre painted. The one I'm showing is pre painted. I had one in kit form but a close friend wanted it and we made a trade.                  The photo supporting description states " Limited run model  with Andeco mechanism and Pittman 5 pole motor, photo engraved shell with lost wax casting ends assembled and drilled.. Frames, End Platforms, Pilot Guard, railings and small details are lost wax castings. Pilot trucks were lost wax castings with Cliff Line RP-25 wheels.                   My information said between all kits and assembled painted models only  48 pieces made. Well I could add more but my 1 finger sore from typing. Last TS electric type, a B-1 "Rat", tomorrow.                                                         Regards             Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6977	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/14/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos.

Jim, I would think it is good to send them through this site and I will then ad them to the Photo section.  But which ever is best for you is fine by me.  I am happy to do thisand either way the photos will get into the site’s photo section. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 10:31 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Submitted photos.   Don,          I will stop sending pictures with post so as not to create any problems. The reason I chose to do it that way is so I could write a "narrative" in the Email section to send along with the pictures. I have no problem following the rules. Belonging to different groups with different rules doesn't help.        On another note I mailed those celluloid Varney sides out this morning to you.   Gerold,         I will continue to send pictures directly to your Email address as per your request to see and learn  the information. I will send the second Trackside Specialties item (Pennsy P-5a)  and info to you .I did mail the Exacta info and article out to you today. Watch for it.   Chuck,        Thanks for creating the album and putting the pictures in it. I will stop posting the pictures through the Yahoo Vintage site. If you still want them I will CC them to you when sent to individuals, who have ask, and you can put in the album. Since you know the problems I am facing (between us) I will be glad to do it this way. Don't want to take up your time . Let me know how to proceed.   Walter B,           Will copy the Exacta info you ask for and send out ASAP.           Sorry I had to  answer a number of things with same post. Just a little easier.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6978	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6

Jim Heckard's very interesting photos confirm that his WINTON Allegheny is one of the very few of these early models to be ever actually completed. The kit was one of immense difficulty for most modelers, and every example that I have examined over the years shows varying signs of abandonment along the way. Winton produced two editions of this HO model, an all-machined kit c. 1948-55 marketed under the Winton name; and a completely new all- investment-casting, i.e. "lost wax", kit c. 1956-63 marketed eventually under the MaRa brand. Virtually no parts were shared between the two editions. Jim's locomotive is a fine example of the earlier model. Winton (Ralph Brown, Danville, CA) developed his first kit model of this locomotive in about 1948, and the first ads were in 1949, the last in 1953. A letter from Mrs. Brown in 1956 indicated that the development of the second model was underway, but that they had many problems and her husband had gone back to his previous salaried job. The history then becomes murky: In about 1958 or 9, the late Frank Weiss of Menlo Park, CA demonstrates for the first time an amazing completed new model of an all-casting Winton Allegheny. However, no ads have to date shown up to indicate that Winton ever marketed the locomotive under the Winton name, so the assumption is that this locomotive kit must have been sold to Frank privately (quite plausible inasmuch as the custom model locomotive fraternity in the Bay Area was very tight at the time, and Frank was an extremely skilled well- connected model locomotive builder). For those members of the West Bay Model Railroad Club, however, where Frank operated, and the Allegheny resided, the model was always referred to as Winton. In 1961, the new Winton Allegheny model now shows up in MODEL RAILROADER ads under the MaRa name (presumed short for MaryRalph). This was a cottage operation out of the home of Ralph Troxel, the principal of Troxel Bros hobby shop, a very well-known hobby shop in Los Angeles during the postwar period. The completed model photographed in the ad is the same one completed by Frank Weiss. There is no reference to the Winton name then, or in MaRa's final ad in 1963. The key to the kit's demise is a back-cover ad in the same magazine by Akane promoting the sale of a built-up Japanese brass model of an Allegheny for $99.00. I have created a new WINTON folder in FILES in which I have included several older photos of both editions of the Winton Allegheny models, as well as a WORD document listing the texts of the Model Railroader ads, 1949-63. The photo of the earlier "machined" model is but one of several identical models owned currently by Jim Davis of Sacramento. The photos (taken 2006) of the later Winton/MaRa "all cast" model are of the original model built by Frank Weiss in the fifties, and it is the same model, untouched in the interim, that Ralph Troxel included in his early '60s MR ads. At Frank 's request , I applied the over- the-top weathering (oils) in 1959, prior to the ad photograph. After disappearing from my view and knowledge for 41 years, this otherwise untouched locomotive passed into my hands in 2005. Notes on the Winton/MaRa "cast" Allegheny model: The locomotive is a very refined model. All applied details are investment castings, many, if not most of which seem to be of BUDD origin (Budd was a very early producer of HO brass loco details. The line was purchased by Kemtron, and many of the parts continue today under Precision Scale Models). The frames are castings, and the articulation is very similar to that of the prototype, i.e. fixed rear engine, and front engine articulating directly by drawbar from the rear engine. The heavy investment-cast boiler rides on the front engine, so the pulling ability of this model is phenomenal. All wheels are sprung. The valve and drive gear are all very refined machinings, with full clevises carefully modeled (some of the very finest such work I have seen in any model). The drive wheels have finely cast centers, and the axles are an unusual 3/16" (vs. the 1/8" common to most American locomotive models of the time). The motor is a PIttman DC-91, most commonly known as an O gauge motor. The locomotive operates almost in full silence with superb low speed control. In a well documented episode, this locomotive successfully pulled a 100 car train around the hilly West Bay Club layout in about 1961 or 2. The locomotive did fine, but the cars' drawbars and couplers (all dummies) often did not. In April 2006, before witnesses, I replicated this episode on my own layout, successfully pulling a train of 131 cars for two months. This time, no couplers (primarily scale-sized Accumate Protos) failed. More than you probably want to know about this little known model. As noted, I have created a new WINTON folder in FILES. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6979	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Trackside Specialties B-1

Attachments : Hi Gerold,               How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm fortunate to have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I would say Test Run Only               This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the same construction as the others and is factory painted. The info I have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made.  I guess the owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as everything I know is a Pennsylvania type.             I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send pictures of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading Crusader. The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam engines. Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of.                                                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6980	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties B-1

Hey Jim, DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has been one on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" price of $1200.00. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Gerold, > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm fortunate to have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I would say Test Run Only > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the same construction as the others and is factory painted. The info I have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as everything I know is a Pennsylvania type. > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send pictures of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading Crusader. The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam engines. Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6981	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6

Doctor Ansbach,             Excellent Winton history write up. I am copying it for my files as I have to look in different places and compile the information. It gets to be a real pain trying to sort through all my information, type it one finger and make no errors. NICE JOB.            I want to add one fact. I have a set of Winton Allegheny plans that are a little different drawings then the ones on HO seeker. While you are correct on the Danville California address my plans have San Leandro, California  It is my understanding that San Leandro was the first home of Winton / Ralph Brown and Danville California / Ralph Brown the second. As you say things get a little foggy as to all the facts. This happens with all the old companies.           Don, there is the Ma-Ra connection that you remembered. I wasn't sure about it as the Allegheny they produced  contained castings. One of the original Ralph Brown / Winton advertisements used a kind of motto " NO cast parts in this kit"           I'm so glad you tackled writing this lengthy narrative. I have found some things out. I will visit the files you have entered if I ever get time.                                                                              Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: Vintage HO Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: [vintageHO] WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6 Jim Heckard's very interesting photos confirm that his WINTON Allegheny is one of the very few of these early models to be ever actually completed. The kit was one of immense difficulty for most modelers, and every example that I have examined over the years shows varying signs of abandonment along the way. Winton produced two editions of this HO model, an all-machined kit c. 1948-55 marketed under the Winton name; and a completely new all- investment-casting, i.e. "lost wax", kit c. 1956-63 marketed eventually under the MaRa brand. Virtually no parts were shared between the two editions. Jim's locomotive is a fine example of the earlier model. Winton (Ralph Brown, Danville, CA) developed his first kit model of this locomotive in about 1948, and the first ads were in 1949, the last in 1953. A letter from Mrs. Brown in 1956 indicated that the development of the second model was underway, but that they had many problems and her husband had gone back to his previous salaried job. The history then becomes murky: In about 1958 or 9, the late Frank Weiss of Menlo Park, CA demonstrates for the first time an amazing completed new model of an all-casting Winton Allegheny. However, no ads have to date shown up to indicate that Winton ever marketed the locomotive under the Winton name, so the assumption is that this locomotive kit must have been sold to Frank privately (quite plausible inasmuch as the custom model locomotive fraternity in the Bay Area was very tight at the time, and Frank was an extremely skilled well- connected model locomotive builder). For those members of the West Bay Model Railroad Club, however, where Frank operated, and the Allegheny resided, the model was always referred to as Winton. In 1961, the new Winton Allegheny model now shows up in MODEL RAILROADER ads under the MaRa name (presumed short for MaryRalph). This was a cottage operation out of the home of Ralph Troxel, the principal of Troxel Bros hobby shop, a very well-known hobby shop in Los Angeles during the postwar period. The completed model photographed in the ad is the same one completed by Frank Weiss. There is no reference to the Winton name then, or in MaRa's final ad in 1963. The key to the kit's demise is a back-cover ad in the same magazine by Akane promoting the sale of a built-up Japanese brass model of an Allegheny for $99.00. I have created a new WINTON folder in FILES in which I have included several older photos of both editions of the Winton Allegheny models, as well as a WORD document listing the texts of the Model Railroader ads, 1949-63. The photo of the earlier "machined" model is but one of several identical models owned currently by Jim Davis of Sacramento. The photos (taken 2006) of the later Winton/MaRa "all cast" model are of the original model built by Frank Weiss in the fifties, and it is the same model, untouched in the interim, that Ralph Troxel included in his early '60s MR ads. At Frank 's request , I applied the over- the-top weathering (oils) in 1959, prior to the ad photograph. After disappearing from my view and knowledge for 41 years, this otherwise untouched locomotive passed into my hands in 2005. Notes on the Winton/MaRa "cast" Allegheny model: The locomotive is a very refined model. All applied details are investment castings, many, if not most of which seem to be of BUDD origin (Budd was a very early producer of HO brass loco details. The line was purchased by Kemtron, and many of the parts continue today under Precision Scale Models). The frames are castings, and the articulation is very similar to that of the prototype, i.e. fixed rear engine, and front engine articulating directly by drawbar from the rear engine. The heavy investment-cast boiler rides on the front engine, so the pulling ability of this model is phenomenal. All wheels are sprung. The valve and drive gear are all very refined machinings, with full clevises carefully modeled (some of the very finest such work I have seen in any model). The drive wheels have finely cast centers, and the axles are an unusual 3/16" (vs. the 1/8" common to most American locomotive models of the time). The motor is a PIttman DC-91, most commonly known as an O gauge motor. The locomotive operates almost in full silence with superb low speed control. In a well documented episode, this locomotive successfully pulled a 100 car train around the hilly West Bay Club layout in about 1961 or 2. The locomotive did fine, but the cars' drawbars and couplers (all dummies) often did not. In April 2006, before witnesses, I replicated this episode on my own layout, successfully pulling a train of 131 cars for two months. This time, no couplers (primarily scale-sized Accumate Protos) failed. More than you probably want to know about this little known model. As noted, I have created a new WINTON folder in FILES. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6982	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6

Hi Denny,   I must say.. while sitting here at my desk at work, ...that email of yours provided a much needed break!   What a fascinating story!  I want to print it and put it with my Winton.   I am happy to have met (only through email and phone) Jim Heckard myself. Had it not been for him, I probably would not have a Winton Allegheny of my own. Fortunately, I purchased mine 95% completed.. It was missing only a trailing truck when I purchased it.   Amazingly enough, just the week before I received it, there had been a listing on eBay which had a trailing truck in it for this very same loco.. What the heck are the chances of that!?  I went back, found the listing and contacted the buyer.. He sold it to me for $10 shipped. It was my lucky day! It was missing (still is) one wheel set of the three.. (Hint hint.. if anyone has one??)   I have it sitting here on my desk at work.. It is surely one of my favorite collection pieces!  Makes reading stories like yours so much more interesting, when you actually can hold the piece in your hand! Makes the piece more interesting and fun too!  (Well in this case.. I just glanced over at it a couple of times..then lifted (tilted) the boiler for a second to look at the front set of drivers... Mine has one motor... Weighs a ton too!   Thanks for that!   I have not taken any, but I could get you some pics, if you would like to see another completed model...   Thanks!   Sean --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote: From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...> Subject: [vintageHO] WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6 To: "Vintage HO" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 11:18 AM Jim Heckard's very interesting photos confirm that his WINTON Allegheny is one of the very few of these early models to be ever actually completed. The kit was one of immense difficulty for most modelers, and every example that I have examined over the years shows varying signs of abandonment along the way. Winton produced two editions of this HO model, an all-machined kit c. 1948-55 marketed under the Winton name; and a completely new all- investment-casting, i.e. "lost wax", kit c. 1956-63 marketed eventually under the MaRa brand. Virtually no parts were shared between the two editions. Jim's locomotive is a fine example of the earlier model. Winton (Ralph Brown, Danville, CA) developed his first kit model of this locomotive in about 1948, and the first ads were in 1949, the last in 1953. A letter from Mrs. Brown in 1956 indicated that the development of the second model was underway, but that they had many problems and her husband had gone back to his previous salaried job. The history then becomes murky: In about 1958 or 9, the late Frank Weiss of Menlo Park, CA demonstrates for the first time an amazing completed new model of an all-casting Winton Allegheny. However, no ads have to date shown up to indicate that Winton ever marketed the locomotive under the Winton name, so the assumption is that this locomotive kit must have been sold to Frank privately (quite plausible inasmuch as the custom model locomotive fraternity in the Bay Area was very tight at the time, and Frank was an extremely skilled well- connected model locomotive builder). For those members of the West Bay Model Railroad Club, however, where Frank operated, and the Allegheny resided, the model was always referred to as Winton. In 1961, the new Winton Allegheny model now shows up in MODEL RAILROADER ads under the MaRa name (presumed short for MaryRalph). This was a cottage operation out of the home of Ralph Troxel, the principal of Troxel Bros hobby shop, a very well-known hobby shop in Los Angeles during the postwar period. The completed model photographed in the ad is the same one completed by Frank Weiss. There is no reference to the Winton name then, or in MaRa's final ad in 1963. The key to the kit's demise is a back-cover ad in the same magazine by Akane promoting the sale of a built-up Japanese brass model of an Allegheny for $99.00. I have created a new WINTON folder in FILES in which I have included several older photos of both editions of the Winton Allegheny models, as well as a WORD document listing the texts of the Model Railroader ads, 1949-63. The photo of the earlier "machined" model is but one of several identical models owned currently by Jim Davis of Sacramento. The photos (taken 2006) of the later Winton/MaRa "all cast" model are of the original model built by Frank Weiss in the fifties, and it is the same model, untouched in the interim, that Ralph Troxel included in his early '60s MR ads. At Frank 's request , I applied the over- the-top weathering (oils) in 1959, prior to the ad photograph. After disappearing from my view and knowledge for 41 years, this otherwise untouched locomotive passed into my hands in 2005. Notes on the Winton/MaRa "cast" Allegheny model: The locomotive is a very refined model. All applied details are investment castings, many, if not most of which seem to be of BUDD origin (Budd was a very early producer of HO brass loco details. The line was purchased by Kemtron, and many of the parts continue today under Precision Scale Models). The frames are castings, and the articulation is very similar to that of the prototype, i.e. fixed rear engine, and front engine articulating directly by drawbar from the rear engine. The heavy investment-cast boiler rides on the front engine, so the pulling ability of this model is phenomenal. All wheels are sprung. The valve and drive gear are all very refined machinings, with full clevises carefully modeled (some of the very finest such work I have seen in any model). The drive wheels have finely cast centers, and the axles are an unusual 3/16" (vs. the 1/8" common to most American locomotive models of the time). The motor is a PIttman DC-91, most commonly known as an O gauge motor. The locomotive operates almost in full silence with superb low speed control. In a well documented episode, this locomotive successfully pulled a 100 car train around the hilly West Bay Club layout in about 1961 or 2. The locomotive did fine, but the cars' drawbars and couplers (all dummies) often did not. In April 2006, before witnesses, I replicated this episode on my own layout, successfully pulling a train of 131 cars for two months. This time, no couplers (primarily scale-sized Accumate Protos) failed. More than you probably want to know about this little known model. As noted, I have created a new WINTON folder in FILES. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6983	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties B-1

John,              Glad you enjoy the pictures and little write ups. As for the PL Crusader and price. I got my Crusader over 10 years ago for $400. It needed work and decals. I will explain that with the picture tomorrow.             As for the one on Ebay which I have seen some PL Crusaders are going for $1500 lately. While $1200 is steep I think that the price of others (unless listed wrong and not found on Ebay) will continue to rise. My opinion. Thanks for your comment.                                                                                                                            Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:42 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 Hey Jim, DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has been one on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" price of $1200.00. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Hi Gerold, > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm fortunate to have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I would say Test Run Only > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the same construction as the others and is factory painted. The info I have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as everything I know is a Pennsylvania type. > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send pictures of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading Crusader. The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam engines. Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6984	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny

Dr. Ansbach ,           As stated before a great article with information all in one text. I want to mention something concerning the Ma-Ra cast version which is sometimes referred to as Winton. I have a good friend and fellow collector from Playa Del Rey CA that has an assembled  Ma-Ra Allegheny. When he first mentioned it years ago many knowledgeable HO train people said NO WAY. It shows how HO history changing as more found out hence my motto "NEVER SAY NEVER".          On another note concerning the ORIGINAL  Winton Allegheny. It was a real challenge to complete. One of the things that bothered me is the plans were not to specific on  how to fully assembly certain areas of the engine. Winton plans kept saying "We have left it to each individual modeler how to complete their engine'. I got the opinion that it was there way of saying they hadn't been able to complete on themselves.  I'm not talking about little individual details some might want. I'm talking about how to complete some major portions.           Case in point.  You talked about how the Winton design was a back stabilized set of drivers and the other articulated and attached by drawbar. I didn't like how , when engine picked up the front drivers were weak and could break off. Since the Winton engine had one motor, which was basically in the cab but still an integral part of the frame, I devised a way to better support the front articulated drivers .First I drilled a hole under the solid brass body above the mid point of the front drivers.I tapped the hole and made a T shape hanger that threaded into the hole. I made a little brass piece that was soldered onto the set of drivers that was slotted the way of the pin . You had to put the front set of drivers on and then turn to line up with the rest of the engine before you assembled the springs used for driving. I replced the front spring with a rubber piece so I could adjust as needed. This supported the front set of trucks. This is just one of many areas I had to engineer and design to finish the engine.             I had put the engine away a couple of times when it got on my nerves. But I kept bringing it back out till finished. It is a very quiet well running unit and as you said very powerful at pulling. I think I had said DC-90 pitman O gauge . You are probably right about DC-91.                                                                                                                   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6985	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny

----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 1:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny Dr. Ansbach ,           As stated before a great article with information all in one text. I want to mention something concerning the Ma-Ra cast version which is sometimes referred to as Winton. I have a good friend and fellow collector from Playa Del Rey CA that has an assembled  Ma-Ra Allegheny. When he first mentioned it years ago many knowledgeable HO train people said NO WAY. It shows how HO history changing as more found out hence my motto "NEVER SAY NEVER".          On another note concerning the ORIGINAL  Winton Allegheny. It was a real challenge to complete. One of the things that bothered me is the plans were not to specific on  how to fully assembly certain areas of the engine. Winton plans kept saying "We have left it to each individual modeler how to complete their engine'. I got the opinion that it was there way of saying they hadn't been able to complete on themselves.  I'm not talking about little individual details some might want. I'm talking about how to complete some major portions.           Case in point.  You talked about how the Winton design was a back stabilized set of drivers and the other articulated and attached by drawbar. I didn't like how , when engine picked up the front drivers were weak and could break off. Since the Winton engine had one motor, which was basically in the cab but still an integral part of the frame, I devised a way to better support the front articulated drivers .First I drilled a hole under the solid brass body above the mid point of the front drivers.I tapped the hole and made a T shape hanger that threaded into the hole. I made a little brass piece that was soldered onto the set of drivers that was slotted the way of the pin . You had to put the front set of drivers on and then turn to line up with the rest of the engine before you assembled the springs used for driving. I replced the front spring with a rubber piece so I could adjust as needed. This supported the front set of trucks. This is just one of many areas I had to engineer and design to finish the engine.             I had put the engine away a couple of times when it got on my nerves. But I kept bringing it back out till finished. It is a very quiet well running unit and as you said very powerful at pulling. I think I had said DC-90 pitman O gauge . You are probably right about DC-91.                                                                                                                   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6986	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny

For clarity . In the text near the end I wrote "slotted the way of the pin" it should say "slotted opposite the pin". ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 1:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny Dr. Ansbach ,           As stated before a great article with information all in one text. I want to mention something concerning the Ma-Ra cast version which is sometimes referred to as Winton. I have a good friend and fellow collector from Playa Del Rey CA that has an assembled  Ma-Ra Allegheny. When he first mentioned it years ago many knowledgeable HO train people said NO WAY. It shows how HO history changing as more found out hence my motto "NEVER SAY NEVER".          On another note concerning the ORIGINAL  Winton Allegheny. It was a real challenge to complete. One of the things that bothered me is the plans were not to specific on  how to fully assembly certain areas of the engine. Winton plans kept saying "We have left it to each individual modeler how to complete their engine'. I got the opinion that it was there way of saying they hadn't been able to complete on themselves.  I'm not talking about little individual details some might want. I'm talking about how to complete some major portions.           Case in point.  You talked about how the Winton design was a back stabilized set of drivers and the other articulated and attached by drawbar. I didn't like how , when engine picked up the front drivers were weak and could break off. Since the Winton engine had one motor, which was basically in the cab but still an integral part of the frame, I devised a way to better support the front articulated drivers .First I drilled a hole under the solid brass body above the mid point of the front drivers.I tapped the hole and made a T shape hanger that threaded into the hole. I made a little brass piece that was soldered onto the set of drivers that was slotted the way of the pin . You had to put the front set of drivers on and then turn to line up with the rest of the engine before you assembled the springs used for driving. I replced the front spring with a rubber piece so I could adjust as needed. This supported the front set of trucks. This is just one of many areas I had to engineer and design to finish the engine.             I had put the engine away a couple of times when it got on my nerves. But I kept bringing it back out till finished. It is a very quiet well running unit and as you said very powerful at pulling. I think I had said DC-90 pitman O gauge . You are probably right about DC-91.                                                                                                                   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6987	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Fw: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties B-1

Attachments : Gerold     Your off list Email said no pictures of the B-1 came. I'll send them again as I don't know what happened or if they passed through the group even ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties B-1 Hi Gerold,               How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm fortunate to have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I would say Test Run Only               This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the same construction as the others and is factory painted. The info I have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made.  I guess the owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as everything I know is a Pennsylvania type.             I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send pictures of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading Crusader. The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam engines. Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of.                                                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6988	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/15/2008
Subject: Special message to Ray W

Hi Ray,          Hope you can get your computer problem straightened out soon. I miss the vast knowledge and information you possess. I bet your "chomping at the bit" to get on line fully again. Did you ever get the feeling that computers are staring back at you, laughing there heads off and thumbing their nose at you as they play little tricks ?                                                                                                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6989	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Special message to Ray W

Hi Jim, So you thought YOU had 'puter problems <g>! Can't beging to describe mine. Anyway, I'm picking up my new one this afternoon. Have to load software into it, so I'm not sure if I'll be up & running. All depends if I run into any problems. Sure enough, you KNOW I'm chomping at the bit. Have lots to add to all the posts that's been happening, like I have 2 Winton Allegheny's and a Berkshire. I only have one of the Allegheny's built (they're a real bear); like your "fix" for the front drivedrs. The other Allegheny I'm keeping as a mint kit, as well as the Berkshire. Noticed you're about to post pics of the Penn Line Crusader. I have 3 of them, all built, # 117, # 118 and one unnumbered I keep stored (Reading only had these two). I'd like to elaborate more on all this stuff, including the Dallas Models, but I don't dare right now. Later, Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > Hope you can get your computer problem straightened out soon. I miss the vast knowledge and information you possess. I bet your "chomping at the bit" to get on line fully again. Did you ever get the feeling that computers are staring back at you, laughing there heads off and thumbing their nose at you as they play little tricks ? > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6990	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties B-1

Jim. Hope you'll please excuse any typo errors I'm making -- don't have time to risk looking back and correcting them. $1200 is not too steep for a decent Penn Line Crusader in today's market. I've been tracking all the P.L. Crusaders on eBay for the last couple of years and while some started out selling for around $950 - $1000, the last few good ones went for just around this $1200 figure (I think there were three -- all near mint, built up). One went for around $850, but needed parts (trailing truck, etc.). Another one had minor dents in its superstructure (that may have been the $950 one). I printed out some of those eBay pages to keep for reference, but not all. There was a kit that went for $1500. Bowser used to carry some of the parts for them back in the ' 70's, but discontinued them. I was able to refinish (re-paint) my three and found a custom decal printer who was kind enough to work with me on them. Don't have time to dig out that info now, but that's coming. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > John, > Glad you enjoy the pictures and little write ups. As for the PL Crusader and price. I got my Crusader over 10 years ago for $400. It needed work and decals. I will explain that with the picture tomorrow. > As for the one on Ebay which I have seen some PL Crusaders are going for $1500 lately. While $1200 is steep I think that the price of others (unless listed wrong and not found on Ebay) will continue to rise. My opinion. Thanks for your comment. > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Hagen > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:42 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > Hey Jim, > > DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. > > And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has been one > on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" price of > $1200.00. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > Hi Gerold, > > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are > the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm fortunate to > have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I would > say Test Run Only > > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the > same construction as the others and is factory painted. The info I > have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the > owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as everything I > know is a Pennsylvania type. > > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up > for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send pictures > of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading Crusader. > The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam engines. > Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few > vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > > > Jim > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6991	From: Tom	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Penn Line Crusader Trailing Truck

Hi guys, thought I would post this request again since its been a while and some new members have joined. Still looking for a trailing truck for my Crusader if anyone has one I am very interested in buying it or trading for it. I would really like to make it completeThanks again. Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6992	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Post-War Mantua Atlantic

Hey Sean, Gareth: That'a about hitting the nail on the head with those prices, again depending on condition if its built. There was a mint-in-box Mantua Atlantic kit on eBay (8/10) that you missed by 2 days which went for $307 and which I thought was pretty cheap for what it was. It was pristine like it just came from the factory (all castings were immaculate), and it included the 8 1/2" x 11" 32-page softcover Atlantic/Pacific Construction & Operating Manual, which is a rare find in itself (has 11 pages of Reading history in it), a good addition to the literature side of the collection. A separate tender for this and the Pacific was also sold, by someone else (on 7/27) for $32. I was even tempted to place a bid on the Atlantic kit, but I have two of them already. It was hard passing it up though. If there's one place you stand a decent chance of finding one of these engines, it would be at the Allentown Fairgrounds ("First Frost" Meet). A bunch of us Collectors such as Roy Scott, George Horan, Graham Harvey and others would make it a semi-annual get together. Other places you might try is Springfield, MA and Timonium, MD (if that one's still around), as the three largest shows in the Northeast. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "sean naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hi, in kit form 250 to 350. Built ddpends on condition. 110 to 250 . The most i have seen one go for lately is 220. Sean > > ---------- > Sent from the Cingular network using Mobile Email > > ------Original Message------ > From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tue, Aug 12, 2008 11:58 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Post-War Mantua Atlantic > > hey gentlemen: > > I'm hoping at Allentown in November to find a Post-War Mantua > Atlantic. I was also hoping someone on the list could give me an idea > of what kind of ballpark dollar wise I'd be entering into? > > Thanks, > Gareth >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6993	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Penn Line Reading Crusader

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                  Hope you got the second set of pictures of the B-1. If not they will eventually show up in the album Chuck created.          As promised these are pictures of my Penn Line Reading Crusader. Although it is vintage HO that was made by a fairly well known company I included for 2 reasons. I love any early streamlined steam. Second,as this engine is becoming highly prized and the price of one today is bringing top dollar.        This and the T-1 4-4-4-4 were the earliest Penn Line engines produced. I was offered the chance to buy this years ago and paid $400 then. The engine must have been an unassembled kit. When it came to me it was assembled but painted black where the Reading Blue should have been. When disassembled as much as possible I stripped the paint off. No blue appeared under the black paint. I painted the engine (all my items get painted using spray cans of paint. Don't have air brush) and assembled it. The bad part is there are not many sets of good Decals that came originally with the engine left.         It was just at that time that Champ Decals (if I remember right) was offering to make special runs of decals on a new ALPS printer. To get them made you had to order so many sets at a high price. Thirteen people got together and ordered sets at that time. I sent one original set of decals to Champ and they copied them exact and right color even down to the little Reading diamond for the front. They worked fairly well except they scratched easy. Hard not to show outline of decal on that shiny aluminum sides.         I have no extra parts as they are hard to come by for this engine. I think there were about 700 made. They are selling in the $1500 range for a decent engine now. Being new to the group I'm sure others in the past have gone over this engine. I wanted to show you mine          Tomorrow I will go back to harder to find vintage items. I will send pictures of a Knapp 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain with 6 volt motor from 1938. A lot of people, at first look, will see a Bill Bowser / Redlands Ca engine but there are differences. The Knapp engine had a major flaw and sold the rights to Bill Bowser.                                                 Well finger sore     Later                                          Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6994	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties B-1

Hi Ray,              How can I not excuse you for making typo (although I saw none) as I'm the king of typos. I wanted to add a story about Penn Line.                    I have a very close friend that lived in Boyertown (home of Penn Line) back at the time they were in business. He now lives just outside of town. Bill has one of the largest pure Penn Line collection I have ever seen. He has 13 Penn Line Reading Crusaders alone (NONE FOR SALE SORRY). His one Email address that he had to stop using started Crusader118. He knew the owners personally, one really good and was a frequent visitor to that Doc's store mentioned in Penn Line history. Bill even has the sign that hung outside were Penn Line produced the trains along with other memoribilia. I don't intend to get into a "battle" of Penn Line facts. He remembers certain details a little different especially dates when Crusader and T-1 "created". It's minor differences but could confuse things. I have no reason to disbelieve his history the same as the history as written by others. Who is 100% right about every little detail. surely not me. Many times as more is learned my knowledge has to change with it. On this Penn Line history I talk to a man, although not an owner, who was there during the history.                                                                          Jim                ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:17 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 Jim. Hope you'll please excuse any typo errors I'm making -- don't have time to risk looking back and correcting them. $1200 is not too steep for a decent Penn Line Crusader in today's market. I've been tracking all the P.L. Crusaders on eBay for the last couple of years and while some started out selling for around $950 - $1000, the last few good ones went for just around this $1200 figure (I think there were three -- all near mint, built up). One went for around $850, but needed parts (trailing truck, etc.). Another one had minor dents in its superstructure (that may have been the $950 one). I printed out some of those eBay pages to keep for reference, but not all. There was a kit that went for $1500. Bowser used to carry some of the parts for them back in the ' 70's, but discontinued them. I was able to refinish (re-paint) my three and found a custom decal printer who was kind enough to work with me on them. Don't have time to dig out that info now, but that's coming. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > John, > Glad you enjoy the pictures and little write ups. As for the PL Crusader and price. I got my Crusader over 10 years ago for $400. It needed work and decals. I will explain that with the picture tomorrow. > As for the one on Ebay which I have seen some PL Crusaders are going for $1500 lately. While $1200 is steep I think that the price of others (unless listed wrong and not found on Ebay) will continue to rise. My opinion. Thanks for your comment. > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Hagen > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:42 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > Hey Jim, > > DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. > > And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has been one > on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" price of > $1200.00. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > Hi Gerold, > > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are > the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm fortunate to > have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I would > say Test Run Only > > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the > same construction as the others and is factory painted. The info I > have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the > owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as everything I > know is a Pennsylvania type. > > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up > for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send pictures > of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading Crusader. > The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam engines. > Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few > vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > > > Jim > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6995	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1

Hi Jim, Reason I mentioned typos was because I noticed some in my previous post. I tried to be careful with the most recent one, but you've gotta know I typed as fast as I could to get it done and sent. I've read supposed authentic accounts of Pen Line history and in particular, the Reading Crusdader, but almost-first-hand accounts like you're supplying are always interesting and make you sit on the edge of your seat looking for more! Thanks for sharing this stuff about Bill. Last time I was in Boyertown has to be about 20 years ago, when I was photographing the local railroad in town (was it the East Penn? I don't quite remember). On a related note, since we're on the P.L. Crusader, I came up with the couple (man & wife) that were responsible for making Reading Crusader decals for me. This gentleman, Buddy Schwartz, had advertised a few sets he had made. They were close to the same style of lettering that the Reading used, but not quite the same. I contacted them to see if they'd do some custom ones for me and as it turned out I sent them a decal set that came with one of my Crusaders to copy the letting style. I had them letter space it out by a skoshe as I thought the original was just a little too condensed when compared with photos of the prototype I sent along with my request. His wife Louise did all the artwork and re-drew everything completely to my specs, which she was most patient with. They did several sets of the loco & tender decals as well as decals for the five-car Budd equipment (diner, 2 coaches and 2 obs). If someone here needs decals for this engine, you could ask if they still have the artwork on file, and if they'd re-print them. I don't think they'd mind as I'm sure they won't be overwhelmed by orders, but this may help some who need them. Name and address again: Buddy & Louise Schwartz, 22015 Route 22, Jonestown, PA 17038. Best, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > How can I not excuse you for making typo (although I saw none) as I'm the king of typos. I wanted to add a story about Penn Line. > I have a very close friend that lived in Boyertown (home of Penn Line) back at the time they were in business. He now lives just outside of town. Bill has one of the largest pure Penn Line collection I have ever seen. He has 13 Penn Line Reading Crusaders alone (NONE FOR SALE SORRY). His one Email address that he had to stop using started Crusader118. He knew the owners personally, one really good and was a frequent visitor to that Doc's store mentioned in Penn Line history. Bill even has the sign that hung outside were Penn Line produced the trains along with other memoribilia. I don't intend to get into a "battle" of Penn Line facts. He remembers certain details a little different especially dates when Crusader and T-1 "created". It's minor differences but could confuse things. I have no reason to disbelieve his history the same as the history as written by others. Who is 100% right about every little detail. surely not me. Many times as more is learned my knowledge has to change with it. On this Penn Line history I talk to a man, although not an owner, who was there during the history. > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:17 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > Jim. Hope you'll please excuse any typo errors I'm making -- don't > have time to risk looking back and correcting them. $1200 is not too > steep for a decent Penn Line Crusader in today's market. I've been > tracking all the P.L. Crusaders on eBay for the last couple of years > and while some started out selling for around $950 - $1000, the last > few good ones went for just around this $1200 figure (I think there > were three -- all near mint, built up). One went for around $850, > but needed parts (trailing truck, etc.). Another one had minor dents > in its superstructure (that may have been the $950 one). I printed > out some of those eBay pages to keep for reference, but not all. > There was a kit that went for $1500. Bowser used to carry some of > the parts for them back in the ' 70's, but discontinued them. I was > able to refinish (re-paint) my three and found a custom decal printer > who was kind enough to work with me on them. Don't have time to dig > out that info now, but that's coming. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > John, > > Glad you enjoy the pictures and little write ups. As > for the PL Crusader and price. I got my Crusader over 10 years ago > for $400. It needed work and decals. I will explain that with the > picture tomorrow. > > As for the one on Ebay which I have seen some PL > Crusaders are going for $1500 lately. While $1200 is steep I think > that the price of others (unless listed wrong and not found on Ebay) > will continue to rise. My opinion. Thanks for your comment. > > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John Hagen > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:42 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > Hey Jim, > > > > DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. > > > > And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has been > one > > on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" price of > > $1200.00. > > > > John Hagen > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Gerold, > > > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are > > the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm fortunate > to > > have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I > would > > say Test Run Only > > > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the > > same construction as the others and is factory painted. The info > I > > have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the > > owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as everything > I > > know is a Pennsylvania type. > > > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up > > for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send > pictures > > of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading > Crusader. > > The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam > engines. > > Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few > > vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > > > > > Jim > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6996	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1

Hi Ray,           Buddy Schwartz.  Forget his Ebay name.  I found something through an item he was selling on Ebay that he made special decals. Funny because we sent him a copy of the original PL Crusader decal too. I'm not sure how long ago it was when we found out he (actually his wife) made his own decals. My friend Bill  contacted him because we had used up all the decals I had made at Champ. The first tries were off color and didn't quit match. They told us they would continue to revise till got it right. After they got it the best they could Bill took a couple of sets. I didn't need anymore since I can only afford one engine. I don't know if Bill ever used them but Buddy started selling sets on Ebay right after. He must do a lot of painting and decal work for himself to sell and others. I vaguely remember him decorating a 4-6-2 (I think) non streamline engine up in Reading blue with decals calling it something like a pre Crusader design and trying to sell it on Ebay. I don't know if Bill does any more business with him. After he sold / used the last of the Crusader sets we had made I'm not sure of what he has used where. Mentioned this more because you said sent him an original to copy from. Don't get me wrong. Very nice couple and his wife was really trying to satisfy.            On another note concerning original Penn Line. Bill was where ever when one of the owners of Penn Line brought in the mold for the first Whitcomb engine way back when. It was 2 halves hinged together on one end and had a clamp at the other end to lock the mold to pour the lead in. This was for the Whitcomb that had the pulley / O ring drive. Just another interesting tidbit.                                                                                                         Jim          ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1 Hi Jim, Reason I mentioned typos was because I noticed some in my previous post. I tried to be careful with the most recent one, but you've gotta know I typed as fast as I could to get it done and sent. I've read supposed authentic accounts of Pen Line history and in particular, the Reading Crusdader, but almost-first- hand accounts like you're supplying are always interesting and make you sit on the edge of your seat looking for more! Thanks for sharing this stuff about Bill. Last time I was in Boyertown has to be about 20 years ago, when I was photographing the local railroad in town (was it the East Penn? I don't quite remember). On a related note, since we're on the P.L. Crusader, I came up with the couple (man & wife) that were responsible for making Reading Crusader decals for me. This gentleman, Buddy Schwartz, had advertised a few sets he had made. They were close to the same style of lettering that the Reading used, but not quite the same. I contacted them to see if they'd do some custom ones for me and as it turned out I sent them a decal set that came with one of my Crusaders to copy the letting style. I had them letter space it out by a skoshe as I thought the original was just a little too condensed when compared with photos of the prototype I sent along with my request. His wife Louise did all the artwork and re-drew everything completely to my specs, which she was most patient with. They did several sets of the loco & tender decals as well as decals for the five-car Budd equipment (diner, 2 coaches and 2 obs). If someone here needs decals for this engine, you could ask if they still have the artwork on file, and if they'd re-print them. I don't think they'd mind as I'm sure they won't be overwhelmed by orders, but this may help some who need them. Name and address again: Buddy & Louise Schwartz, 22015 Route 22, Jonestown, PA 17038. Best, Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Hi Ray, > How can I not excuse you for making typo (although I saw none) as I'm the king of typos. I wanted to add a story about Penn Line. > I have a very close friend that lived in Boyertown (home of Penn Line) back at the time they were in business. He now lives just outside of town. Bill has one of the largest pure Penn Line collection I have ever seen. He has 13 Penn Line Reading Crusaders alone (NONE FOR SALE SORRY). His one Email address that he had to stop using started Crusader118. He knew the owners personally, one really good and was a frequent visitor to that Doc's store mentioned in Penn Line history. Bill even has the sign that hung outside were Penn Line produced the trains along with other memoribilia. I don't intend to get into a "battle" of Penn Line facts. He remembers certain details a little different especially dates when Crusader and T-1 "created". It's minor differences but could confuse things. I have no reason to disbelieve his history the same as the history as written by others. Who is 100% right about every little detail. surely not me. Many times as more is learned my knowledge has to change with it. On this Penn Line history I talk to a man, although not an owner, who was there during the history. > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:17 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > Jim. Hope you'll please excuse any typo errors I'm making -- don't > have time to risk looking back and correcting them. $1200 is not too > steep for a decent Penn Line Crusader in today's market. I've been > tracking all the P.L. Crusaders on eBay for the last couple of years > and while some started out selling for around $950 - $1000, the last > few good ones went for just around this $1200 figure (I think there > were three -- all near mint, built up). One went for around $850, > but needed parts (trailing truck, etc.). Another one had minor dents > in its superstructure (that may have been the $950 one). I printed > out some of those eBay pages to keep for reference, but not all. > There was a kit that went for $1500. Bowser used to carry some of > the parts for them back in the ' 70's, but discontinued them. I was > able to refinish (re-paint) my three and found a custom decal printer > who was kind enough to work with me on them. Don't have time to dig > out that info now, but that's coming. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > John, > > Glad you enjoy the pictures and little write ups. As > for the PL Crusader and price. I got my Crusader over 10 years ago > for $400. It needed work and decals. I will explain that with the > picture tomorrow. > > As for the one on Ebay which I have seen some PL > Crusaders are going for $1500 lately. While $1200 is steep I think > that the price of others (unless listed wrong and not found on Ebay) > will continue to rise. My opinion. Thanks for your comment. > > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John Hagen > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:42 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > Hey Jim, > > > > DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. > > > > And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has been > one > > on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" price of > > $1200.00. > > > > John Hagen > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Gerold, > > > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are > > the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm fortunate > to > > have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I > would > > say Test Run Only > > > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the > > same construction as the others and is factory painted. The info > I > > have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the > > owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as everything > I > > know is a Pennsylvania type. > > > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up > > for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send > pictures > > of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading > Crusader. > > The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam > engines. > > Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few > > vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > > > > > Jim > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6997	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1

Hey Jim, Does the name "Bulosch" ring a bell. I believe this was Buddy's eBay user name. Still had it in my eBay stuff on my list of Favorite Sellers, as its easy to keep track of there. Might have been that when I first spotted Buddy selling Crusader decals, they were left over from what Bill bought. Buddy said that he copied them from a set that a customer leant him. Like they say -- "Small world!" Only, the ones Buddy first had did not exactly match the type style that was on the prototype, come to think of it, my original decals from Penn Line may not have matched the prototype either (I don't think they did!). They were both similar fonts (the Penn Line decals and the prototype lettering) of what is known in printing as "Text" with "Old English," (a Text face, as an example) often also used in wedding invitations, etc., but in the Crusader example it was used to indicate something regal and at the same time midieval. While I first inquired, buddy seemed enthusiastic, but soon lost interest and handed my inquiries over to Louise. As you said, she really tried to satisfy what I was after, partly she said, as she wanted to learn. I was a printer by trade, and educated her about these similar type faces. At the same time, she tried to do everything she could to produce what I was after. It wasn't easy for her at first, but eventually she sent me just what I was after. I left out the part about her continuing to revise it. She must have sent at least half a dozen samples throughout this process and that was just for the type style. Then a bunch more samples for the correct color. And finally, correct sizes also. I figured she'd give up, but I had nothing to lose as long as she was willing to keep working on them (took months, but I was in no hurry). So, besides my saying she was patient, you may be able to start to see how patient I needed to be, but it all paid off in the end. She made me four sets; I figured I'd keep the extra set as a spare in case I ever needed it. This is why I say she must still have the artwork with her to make more copies from. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > Buddy Schwartz. Forget his Ebay name. I found something through an item he was selling on Ebay that he made special decals. Funny because we sent him a copy of the original PL Crusader decal too. I'm not sure how long ago it was when we found out he (actually his wife) made his own decals. My friend Bill contacted him because we had used up all the decals I had made at Champ. The first tries were off color and didn't quit match. They told us they would continue to revise till got it right. After they got it the best they could Bill took a couple of sets. I didn't need anymore since I can only afford one engine. I don't know if Bill ever used them but Buddy started selling sets on Ebay right after. He must do a lot of painting and decal work for himself to sell and others. I vaguely remember him decorating a 4-6-2 (I think) non streamline engine up in Reading blue with decals calling it something like a pre Crusader design and trying to sell it on Ebay. I don't know if Bill does any more business with him. After he sold / used the last of the Crusader sets we had made I'm not sure of what he has used where. Mentioned this more because you said sent him an original to copy from. Don't get me wrong. Very nice couple and his wife was really trying to satisfy. > On another note concerning original Penn Line. Bill was where ever when one of the owners of Penn Line brought in the mold for the first Whitcomb engine way back when. It was 2 halves hinged together on one end and had a clamp at the other end to lock the mold to pour the lead in. This was for the Whitcomb that had the pulley / O ring drive. Just another interesting tidbit. > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:22 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > Hi Jim, Reason I mentioned typos was because I noticed some in my > previous post. I tried to be careful with the most recent one, but > you've gotta know I typed as fast as I could to get it done and sent. > > I've read supposed authentic accounts of Pen Line history and in > particular, the Reading Crusdader, but almost-first-hand accounts > like you're supplying are always interesting and make you sit on the > edge of your seat looking for more! Thanks for sharing this stuff > about Bill. Last time I was in Boyertown has to be about 20 years > ago, when I was photographing the local railroad in town (was it the > East Penn? I don't quite remember). > > On a related note, since we're on the P.L. Crusader, I came up with > the couple (man & wife) that were responsible for making Reading > Crusader decals for me. This gentleman, Buddy Schwartz, had > advertised a few sets he had made. They were close to the same style > of lettering that the Reading used, but not quite the same. I > contacted them to see if they'd do some custom ones for me and as it > turned out I sent them a decal set that came with one of my Crusaders > to copy the letting style. I had them letter space it out by a > skoshe as I thought the original was just a little too condensed when > compared with photos of the prototype I sent along with my request. > His wife Louise did all the artwork and re-drew everything completely > to my specs, which she was most patient with. They did several sets > of the loco & tender decals as well as decals for the five-car Budd > equipment (diner, 2 coaches and 2 obs). > > If someone here needs decals for this engine, you could ask if they > still have the artwork on file, and if they'd re-print them. I don't > think they'd mind as I'm sure they won't be overwhelmed by orders, > but this may help some who need them. Name and address again: Buddy > & Louise Schwartz, 22015 Route 22, Jonestown, PA 17038. Best, Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > How can I not excuse you for making typo (although I > saw none) as I'm the king of typos. I wanted to add a story about > Penn Line. > > I have a very close friend that lived in > Boyertown (home of Penn Line) back at the time they were in business. > He now lives just outside of town. Bill has one of the largest pure > Penn Line collection I have ever seen. He has 13 Penn Line Reading > Crusaders alone (NONE FOR SALE SORRY). His one Email address that he > had to stop using started Crusader118. He knew the owners personally, > one really good and was a frequent visitor to that Doc's store > mentioned in Penn Line history. Bill even has the sign that hung > outside were Penn Line produced the trains along with other > memoribilia. I don't intend to get into a "battle" of Penn Line > facts. He remembers certain details a little different especially > dates when Crusader and T-1 "created". It's minor differences but > could confuse things. I have no reason to disbelieve his history the > same as the history as written by others. Who is 100% right about > every little detail. surely not me. Many times as more is learned my > knowledge has to change with it. On this Penn Line history I talk to > a man, although not an owner, who was there during the history. > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: erieberk > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:17 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > Jim. Hope you'll please excuse any typo errors I'm making -- > don't > > have time to risk looking back and correcting them. $1200 is not > too > > steep for a decent Penn Line Crusader in today's market. I've > been > > tracking all the P.L. Crusaders on eBay for the last couple of > years > > and while some started out selling for around $950 - $1000, the > last > > few good ones went for just around this $1200 figure (I think > there > > were three -- all near mint, built up). One went for around $850, > > but needed parts (trailing truck, etc.). Another one had minor > dents > > in its superstructure (that may have been the $950 one). I > printed > > out some of those eBay pages to keep for reference, but not all. > > There was a kit that went for $1500. Bowser used to carry some of > > the parts for them back in the ' 70's, but discontinued them. I > was > > able to refinish (re-paint) my three and found a custom decal > printer > > who was kind enough to work with me on them. Don't have time to > dig > > out that info now, but that's coming. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > Glad you enjoy the pictures and little write ups. As > > for the PL Crusader and price. I got my Crusader over 10 years > ago > > for $400. It needed work and decals. I will explain that with the > > picture tomorrow. > > > As for the one on Ebay which I have seen some PL > > Crusaders are going for $1500 lately. While $1200 is steep I > think > > that the price of others (unless listed wrong and not found on > Ebay) > > will continue to rise. My opinion. Thanks for your comment. > > > > > Jim > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John Hagen > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:42 AM > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > > > > Hey Jim, > > > > > > DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. > > > > > > And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has > been > > one > > > on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" price > of > > > $1200.00. > > > > > > John Hagen > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Gerold, > > > > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are > > > the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm > fortunate > > to > > > have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I > > would > > > say Test Run Only > > > > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the > > > same construction as the others and is factory painted. The > info > > I > > > have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the > > > owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as > everything > > I > > > know is a Pennsylvania type. > > > > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up > > > for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send > > pictures > > > of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading > > Crusader. > > > The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam > > engines. > > > Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few > > > vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6998	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1

Jim, Those Penn Line Whitcombs went through a little period of evolution as they kept improving them. When they went to a gear drive, they first used straight-cut gears -- which could be a bit noisy. The later ones had helical-cut (angle-cut) gears which were much quieter. I waited until I could buy the ones using the helical- cut gears, but they're all nice in their own rite, for what they are. They run pretty nicely for such as small little unit. That's interesting about the molds for them. Its just little tid-bits like this, when added each on to the other, that makes for a fascinating read of their history as a whole, and at least these small parts can help you understand the whole picture better when they're all filled in. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > Buddy Schwartz. Forget his Ebay name. I found something through an item he was selling on Ebay that he made special decals. Funny because we sent him a copy of the original PL Crusader decal too. I'm not sure how long ago it was when we found out he (actually his wife) made his own decals. My friend Bill contacted him because we had used up all the decals I had made at Champ. The first tries were off color and didn't quit match. They told us they would continue to revise till got it right. After they got it the best they could Bill took a couple of sets. I didn't need anymore since I can only afford one engine. I don't know if Bill ever used them but Buddy started selling sets on Ebay right after. He must do a lot of painting and decal work for himself to sell and others. I vaguely remember him decorating a 4-6-2 (I think) non streamline engine up in Reading blue with decals calling it something like a pre Crusader design and trying to sell it on Ebay. I don't know if Bill does any more business with him. After he sold / used the last of the Crusader sets we had made I'm not sure of what he has used where. Mentioned this more because you said sent him an original to copy from. Don't get me wrong. Very nice couple and his wife was really trying to satisfy. > On another note concerning original Penn Line. Bill was where ever when one of the owners of Penn Line brought in the mold for the first Whitcomb engine way back when. It was 2 halves hinged together on one end and had a clamp at the other end to lock the mold to pour the lead in. This was for the Whitcomb that had the pulley / O ring drive. Just another interesting tidbit. > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:22 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > Hi Jim, Reason I mentioned typos was because I noticed some in my > previous post. I tried to be careful with the most recent one, but > you've gotta know I typed as fast as I could to get it done and sent. > > I've read supposed authentic accounts of Pen Line history and in > particular, the Reading Crusdader, but almost-first-hand accounts > like you're supplying are always interesting and make you sit on the > edge of your seat looking for more! Thanks for sharing this stuff > about Bill. Last time I was in Boyertown has to be about 20 years > ago, when I was photographing the local railroad in town (was it the > East Penn? I don't quite remember). > > On a related note, since we're on the P.L. Crusader, I came up with > the couple (man & wife) that were responsible for making Reading > Crusader decals for me. This gentleman, Buddy Schwartz, had > advertised a few sets he had made. They were close to the same style > of lettering that the Reading used, but not quite the same. I > contacted them to see if they'd do some custom ones for me and as it > turned out I sent them a decal set that came with one of my Crusaders > to copy the letting style. I had them letter space it out by a > skoshe as I thought the original was just a little too condensed when > compared with photos of the prototype I sent along with my request. > His wife Louise did all the artwork and re-drew everything completely > to my specs, which she was most patient with. They did several sets > of the loco & tender decals as well as decals for the five-car Budd > equipment (diner, 2 coaches and 2 obs). > > If someone here needs decals for this engine, you could ask if they > still have the artwork on file, and if they'd re-print them. I don't > think they'd mind as I'm sure they won't be overwhelmed by orders, > but this may help some who need them. Name and address again: Buddy > & Louise Schwartz, 22015 Route 22, Jonestown, PA 17038. Best, Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > How can I not excuse you for making typo (although I > saw none) as I'm the king of typos. I wanted to add a story about > Penn Line. > > I have a very close friend that lived in > Boyertown (home of Penn Line) back at the time they were in business. > He now lives just outside of town. Bill has one of the largest pure > Penn Line collection I have ever seen. He has 13 Penn Line Reading > Crusaders alone (NONE FOR SALE SORRY). His one Email address that he > had to stop using started Crusader118. He knew the owners personally, > one really good and was a frequent visitor to that Doc's store > mentioned in Penn Line history. Bill even has the sign that hung > outside were Penn Line produced the trains along with other > memoribilia. I don't intend to get into a "battle" of Penn Line > facts. He remembers certain details a little different especially > dates when Crusader and T-1 "created". It's minor differences but > could confuse things. I have no reason to disbelieve his history the > same as the history as written by others. Who is 100% right about > every little detail. surely not me. Many times as more is learned my > knowledge has to change with it. On this Penn Line history I talk to > a man, although not an owner, who was there during the history. > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: erieberk > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:17 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > Jim. Hope you'll please excuse any typo errors I'm making -- > don't > > have time to risk looking back and correcting them. $1200 is not > too > > steep for a decent Penn Line Crusader in today's market. I've > been > > tracking all the P.L. Crusaders on eBay for the last couple of > years > > and while some started out selling for around $950 - $1000, the > last > > few good ones went for just around this $1200 figure (I think > there > > were three -- all near mint, built up). One went for around $850, > > but needed parts (trailing truck, etc.). Another one had minor > dents > > in its superstructure (that may have been the $950 one). I > printed > > out some of those eBay pages to keep for reference, but not all. > > There was a kit that went for $1500. Bowser used to carry some of > > the parts for them back in the ' 70's, but discontinued them. I > was > > able to refinish (re-paint) my three and found a custom decal > printer > > who was kind enough to work with me on them. Don't have time to > dig > > out that info now, but that's coming. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > Glad you enjoy the pictures and little write ups. As > > for the PL Crusader and price. I got my Crusader over 10 years > ago > > for $400. It needed work and decals. I will explain that with the > > picture tomorrow. > > > As for the one on Ebay which I have seen some PL > > Crusaders are going for $1500 lately. While $1200 is steep I > think > > that the price of others (unless listed wrong and not found on > Ebay) > > will continue to rise. My opinion. Thanks for your comment. > > > > > Jim > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John Hagen > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:42 AM > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > > > > Hey Jim, > > > > > > DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. > > > > > > And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has > been > > one > > > on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" price > of > > > $1200.00. > > > > > > John Hagen > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Gerold, > > > > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are > > > the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm > fortunate > > to > > > have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I > > would > > > say Test Run Only > > > > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the > > > same construction as the others and is factory painted. The > info > > I > > > have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the > > > owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as > everything > > I > > > know is a Pennsylvania type. > > > > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up > > > for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send > > pictures > > > of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading > > Crusader. > > > The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam > > engines. > > > Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few > > > vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 6999	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1

That's the name that rings the bell. I found him selling something on Ebay and when I went into his "site" it mentioned custom made decals. And you know the rest. I'm not trying to hide Bill's last name. I don't have his permission to pass it on especially over the vintageHO yahoo site. As you say it is a small world and I'm willing to bet the more we correspond the more we will see a lot of having the same sources for information. It's the ones we both don't know that will provide new and interesting facts.      Since you were a printer by trade maybe you can answer these Questions.  Why couldn't Buddy and Louise just copy the original we sent like Champ was able to do before ?  Was the difference that Champ just had a new ALPS printer  ?  What is different that ALPS printer can do this if you know and can explain to a beginner ?  If this is off topic for the site feel free to contact off list at jimheck@...                                                                                                                Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1 Hey Jim, Does the name "Bulosch" ring a bell. I believe this was Buddy's eBay user name. Still had it in my eBay stuff on my list of Favorite Sellers, as its easy to keep track of there. Might have been that when I first spotted Buddy selling Crusader decals, they were left over from what Bill bought. Buddy said that he copied them from a set that a customer leant him. Like they say -- "Small world!" Only, the ones Buddy first had did not exactly match the type style that was on the prototype, come to think of it, my original decals from Penn Line may not have matched the prototype either (I don't think they did!). They were both similar fonts (the Penn Line decals and the prototype lettering) of what is known in printing as "Text" with "Old English," (a Text face, as an example) often also used in wedding invitations, etc., but in the Crusader example it was used to indicate something regal and at the same time midieval. While I first inquired, buddy seemed enthusiastic, but soon lost interest and handed my inquiries over to Louise. As you said, she really tried to satisfy what I was after, partly she said, as she wanted to learn. I was a printer by trade, and educated her about these similar type faces. At the same time, she tried to do everything she could to produce what I was after. It wasn't easy for her at first, but eventually she sent me just what I was after. I left out the part about her continuing to revise it. She must have sent at least half a dozen samples throughout this process and that was just for the type style. Then a bunch more samples for the correct color. And finally, correct sizes also. I figured she'd give up, but I had nothing to lose as long as she was willing to keep working on them (took months, but I was in no hurry). So, besides my saying she was patient, you may be able to start to see how patient I needed to be, but it all paid off in the end. She made me four sets; I figured I'd keep the extra set as a spare in case I ever needed it. This is why I say she must still have the artwork with her to make more copies from. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Hi Ray, > Buddy Schwartz. Forget his Ebay name. I found something through an item he was selling on Ebay that he made special decals. Funny because we sent him a copy of the original PL Crusader decal too. I'm not sure how long ago it was when we found out he (actually his wife) made his own decals. My friend Bill contacted him because we had used up all the decals I had made at Champ. The first tries were off color and didn't quit match. They told us they would continue to revise till got it right. After they got it the best they could Bill took a couple of sets. I didn't need anymore since I can only afford one engine. I don't know if Bill ever used them but Buddy started selling sets on Ebay right after. He must do a lot of painting and decal work for himself to sell and others. I vaguely remember him decorating a 4-6-2 (I think) non streamline engine up in Reading blue with decals calling it something like a pre Crusader design and trying to sell it on Ebay. I don't know if Bill does any more business with him. After he sold / used the last of the Crusader sets we had made I'm not sure of what he has used where. Mentioned this more because you said sent him an original to copy from. Don't get me wrong. Very nice couple and his wife was really trying to satisfy. > On another note concerning original Penn Line. Bill was where ever when one of the owners of Penn Line brought in the mold for the first Whitcomb engine way back when. It was 2 halves hinged together on one end and had a clamp at the other end to lock the mold to pour the lead in. This was for the Whitcomb that had the pulley / O ring drive. Just another interesting tidbit. > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:22 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > Hi Jim, Reason I mentioned typos was because I noticed some in my > previous post. I tried to be careful with the most recent one, but > you've gotta know I typed as fast as I could to get it done and sent. > > I've read supposed authentic accounts of Pen Line history and in > particular, the Reading Crusdader, but almost-first- hand accounts > like you're supplying are always interesting and make you sit on the > edge of your seat looking for more! Thanks for sharing this stuff > about Bill. Last time I was in Boyertown has to be about 20 years > ago, when I was photographing the local railroad in town (was it the > East Penn? I don't quite remember). > > On a related note, since we're on the P.L. Crusader, I came up with > the couple (man & wife) that were responsible for making Reading > Crusader decals for me. This gentleman, Buddy Schwartz, had > advertised a few sets he had made. They were close to the same style > of lettering that the Reading used, but not quite the same. I > contacted them to see if they'd do some custom ones for me and as it > turned out I sent them a decal set that came with one of my Crusaders > to copy the letting style. I had them letter space it out by a > skoshe as I thought the original was just a little too condensed when > compared with photos of the prototype I sent along with my request. > His wife Louise did all the artwork and re-drew everything completely > to my specs, which she was most patient with. They did several sets > of the loco & tender decals as well as decals for the five-car Budd > equipment (diner, 2 coaches and 2 obs). > > If someone here needs decals for this engine, you could ask if they > still have the artwork on file, and if they'd re-print them. I don't > think they'd mind as I'm sure they won't be overwhelmed by orders, > but this may help some who need them. Name and address again: Buddy > & Louise Schwartz, 22015 Route 22, Jonestown, PA 17038. Best, Ray W. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > How can I not excuse you for making typo (although I > saw none) as I'm the king of typos. I wanted to add a story about > Penn Line. > > I have a very close friend that lived in > Boyertown (home of Penn Line) back at the time they were in business. > He now lives just outside of town. Bill has one of the largest pure > Penn Line collection I have ever seen. He has 13 Penn Line Reading > Crusaders alone (NONE FOR SALE SORRY). His one Email address that he > had to stop using started Crusader118. He knew the owners personally, > one really good and was a frequent visitor to that Doc's store > mentioned in Penn Line history. Bill even has the sign that hung > outside were Penn Line produced the trains along with other > memoribilia. I don't intend to get into a "battle" of Penn Line > facts. He remembers certain details a little different especially > dates when Crusader and T-1 "created". It's minor differences but > could confuse things. I have no reason to disbelieve his history the > same as the history as written by others. Who is 100% right about > every little detail. surely not me. Many times as more is learned my > knowledge has to change with it. On this Penn Line history I talk to > a man, although not an owner, who was there during the history. > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: erieberk > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:17 AM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > Jim. Hope you'll please excuse any typo errors I'm making -- > don't > > have time to risk looking back and correcting them. $1200 is not > too > > steep for a decent Penn Line Crusader in today's market. I've > been > > tracking all the P.L. Crusaders on eBay for the last couple of > years > > and while some started out selling for around $950 - $1000, the > last > > few good ones went for just around this $1200 figure (I think > there > > were three -- all near mint, built up). One went for around $850, > > but needed parts (trailing truck, etc.). Another one had minor > dents > > in its superstructure (that may have been the $950 one). I > printed > > out some of those eBay pages to keep for reference, but not all. > > There was a kit that went for $1500. Bowser used to carry some of > > the parts for them back in the ' 70's, but discontinued them. I > was > > able to refinish (re-paint) my three and found a custom decal > printer > > who was kind enough to work with me on them. Don't have time to > dig > > out that info now, but that's coming. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > Glad you enjoy the pictures and little write ups. As > > for the PL Crusader and price. I got my Crusader over 10 years > ago > > for $400. It needed work and decals. I will explain that with the > > picture tomorrow. > > > As for the one on Ebay which I have seen some PL > > Crusaders are going for $1500 lately. While $1200 is steep I > think > > that the price of others (unless listed wrong and not found on > Ebay) > > will continue to rise. My opinion. Thanks for your comment. > > > > > Jim > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John Hagen > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:42 AM > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > > > > Hey Jim, > > > > > > DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. > > > > > > And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has > been > > one > > > on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" price > of > > > $1200.00. > > > > > > John Hagen > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Gerold, > > > > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are > > > the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm > fortunate > > to > > > have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint I > > would > > > say Test Run Only > > > > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the > > > same construction as the others and is factory painted. The > info > > I > > > have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the > > > owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as > everything > > I > > > know is a Pennsylvania type. > > > > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up > > > for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send > > pictures > > > of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading > > Crusader. > > > The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam > > engines. > > > Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few > > > vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7000	From: erieberk	Date: 8/16/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1

Jim, I knew a few guys named Bill in Eastern PA who were avid H0 collectors, but I won't even venture a guess as I can respect his privacy. I don't think printing decals (or going into the process of doing it on such machines as the ALPS) would be off-topic, but when I was in the printing trade, this was not quite like the printing (copying) of decals on an ALPS printer. Its all related to what we use to letter our equipment (so, on topic), but I would like to point out that I was first in letterpress then went into offset as the processes changed through the years, but this still was unlike the process used to produce these decals, even if its kind of similar. So I can't answer your question since I'm not familiar with the ALPS, but I don't quite see why they couldn't just copy the Champ set, unless -- and this is a strong possibility -- maybe they figured it would "fill in" too much and wouldn't be "crisp," and so thought it best to start from scratch to avoid this. It like making a copy from a copy -- its never as sharp as the original. This is especially true in photo-offset. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > That's the name that rings the bell. I found him selling something on Ebay and when I went into his "site" it mentioned custom made decals. And you know the rest. I'm not trying to hide Bill's last name. I don't have his permission to pass it on especially over the vintageHO yahoo site. As you say it is a small world and I'm willing to bet the more we correspond the more we will see a lot of having the same sources for information. It's the ones we both don't know that will provide new and interesting facts. > Since you were a printer by trade maybe you can answer these Questions. Why couldn't Buddy and Louise just copy the original we sent like Champ was able to do before ? Was the difference that Champ just had a new ALPS printer ? What is different that ALPS printer can do this if you know and can explain to a beginner ? If this is off topic for the site feel free to contact off list at jimheck@... > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:47 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > Hey Jim, Does the name "Bulosch" ring a bell. I believe this was > Buddy's eBay user name. Still had it in my eBay stuff on my list of > Favorite Sellers, as its easy to keep track of there. Might have > been that when I first spotted Buddy selling Crusader decals, they > were left over from what Bill bought. Buddy said that he copied them > from a set that a customer leant him. Like they say -- "Small > world!" > > Only, the ones Buddy first had did not exactly match the type style > that was on the prototype, come to think of it, my original decals > from Penn Line may not have matched the prototype either (I don't > think they did!). They were both similar fonts (the Penn Line decals > and the prototype lettering) of what is known in printing as "Text" > with "Old English," (a Text face, as an example) often also used in > wedding invitations, etc., but in the Crusader example it was used to > indicate something regal and at the same time midieval. > > While I first inquired, buddy seemed enthusiastic, but soon lost > interest and handed my inquiries over to Louise. As you said, she > really tried to satisfy what I was after, partly she said, as she > wanted to learn. I was a printer by trade, and educated her about > these similar type faces. At the same time, she tried to do > everything she could to produce what I was after. It wasn't easy for > her at first, but eventually she sent me just what I was after. > > I left out the part about her continuing to revise it. She must have > sent at least half a dozen samples throughout this process and that > was just for the type style. Then a bunch more samples for the > correct color. And finally, correct sizes also. I figured she'd > give up, but I had nothing to lose as long as she was willing to keep > working on them (took months, but I was in no hurry). So, besides my > saying she was patient, you may be able to start to see how patient I > needed to be, but it all paid off in the end. She made me four sets; > I figured I'd keep the extra set as a spare in case I ever needed > it. This is why I say she must still have the artwork with her to > make more copies from. Ray > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > Buddy Schwartz. Forget his Ebay name. I found something > through an item he was selling on Ebay that he made special decals. > Funny because we sent him a copy of the original PL Crusader decal > too. I'm not sure how long ago it was when we found out he (actually > his wife) made his own decals. My friend Bill contacted him because > we had used up all the decals I had made at Champ. The first tries > were off color and didn't quit match. They told us they would > continue to revise till got it right. After they got it the best they > could Bill took a couple of sets. I didn't need anymore since I can > only afford one engine. I don't know if Bill ever used them but Buddy > started selling sets on Ebay right after. He must do a lot of > painting and decal work for himself to sell and others. I vaguely > remember him decorating a 4-6-2 (I think) non streamline engine up in > Reading blue with decals calling it something like a pre Crusader > design and trying to sell it on Ebay. I don't know if Bill does any > more business with him. After he sold / used the last of the Crusader > sets we had made I'm not sure of what he has used where. Mentioned > this more because you said sent him an original to copy from. Don't > get me wrong. Very nice couple and his wife was really trying to > satisfy. > > On another note concerning original Penn Line. Bill was > where ever when one of the owners of Penn Line brought in the mold > for the first Whitcomb engine way back when. It was 2 halves hinged > together on one end and had a clamp at the other end to lock the mold > to pour the lead in. This was for the Whitcomb that had the pulley / > O ring drive. Just another interesting tidbit. > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: erieberk > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:22 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Crusader, was - Trackside > Specialties B-1 > > > > > > Hi Jim, Reason I mentioned typos was because I noticed some in my > > previous post. I tried to be careful with the most recent one, > but > > you've gotta know I typed as fast as I could to get it done and > sent. > > > > I've read supposed authentic accounts of Pen Line history and in > > particular, the Reading Crusdader, but almost-first-hand accounts > > like you're supplying are always interesting and make you sit on > the > > edge of your seat looking for more! Thanks for sharing this stuff > > about Bill. Last time I was in Boyertown has to be about 20 years > > ago, when I was photographing the local railroad in town (was it > the > > East Penn? I don't quite remember). > > > > On a related note, since we're on the P.L. Crusader, I came up > with > > the couple (man & wife) that were responsible for making Reading > > Crusader decals for me. This gentleman, Buddy Schwartz, had > > advertised a few sets he had made. They were close to the same > style > > of lettering that the Reading used, but not quite the same. I > > contacted them to see if they'd do some custom ones for me and as > it > > turned out I sent them a decal set that came with one of my > Crusaders > > to copy the letting style. I had them letter space it out by a > > skoshe as I thought the original was just a little too condensed > when > > compared with photos of the prototype I sent along with my > request. > > His wife Louise did all the artwork and re-drew everything > completely > > to my specs, which she was most patient with. They did several > sets > > of the loco & tender decals as well as decals for the five-car > Budd > > equipment (diner, 2 coaches and 2 obs). > > > > If someone here needs decals for this engine, you could ask if > they > > still have the artwork on file, and if they'd re-print them. I > don't > > think they'd mind as I'm sure they won't be overwhelmed by > orders, > > but this may help some who need them. Name and address again: > Buddy > > & Louise Schwartz, 22015 Route 22, Jonestown, PA 17038. Best, Ray > W. > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > > How can I not excuse you for making typo (although I > > saw none) as I'm the king of typos. I wanted to add a story about > > Penn Line. > > > I have a very close friend that lived in > > Boyertown (home of Penn Line) back at the time they were in > business. > > He now lives just outside of town. Bill has one of the largest > pure > > Penn Line collection I have ever seen. He has 13 Penn Line > Reading > > Crusaders alone (NONE FOR SALE SORRY). His one Email address that > he > > had to stop using started Crusader118. He knew the owners > personally, > > one really good and was a frequent visitor to that Doc's store > > mentioned in Penn Line history. Bill even has the sign that hung > > outside were Penn Line produced the trains along with other > > memoribilia. I don't intend to get into a "battle" of Penn Line > > facts. He remembers certain details a little different especially > > dates when Crusader and T-1 "created". It's minor differences but > > could confuse things. I have no reason to disbelieve his history > the > > same as the history as written by others. Who is 100% right about > > every little detail. surely not me. Many times as more is learned > my > > knowledge has to change with it. On this Penn Line history I talk > to > > a man, although not an owner, who was there during the history. > > > > > Jim > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: erieberk > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:17 AM > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > > > > Jim. Hope you'll please excuse any typo errors I'm making -- > > don't > > > have time to risk looking back and correcting them. $1200 is > not > > too > > > steep for a decent Penn Line Crusader in today's market. I've > > been > > > tracking all the P.L. Crusaders on eBay for the last couple of > > years > > > and while some started out selling for around $950 - $1000, the > > last > > > few good ones went for just around this $1200 figure (I think > > there > > > were three -- all near mint, built up). One went for around > $850, > > > but needed parts (trailing truck, etc.). Another one had minor > > dents > > > in its superstructure (that may have been the $950 one). I > > printed > > > out some of those eBay pages to keep for reference, but not > all. > > > There was a kit that went for $1500. Bowser used to carry some > of > > > the parts for them back in the ' 70's, but discontinued them. I > > was > > > able to refinish (re-paint) my three and found a custom decal > > printer > > > who was kind enough to work with me on them. Don't have time to > > dig > > > out that info now, but that's coming. Ray > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > John, > > > > Glad you enjoy the pictures and little write ups. As > > > for the PL Crusader and price. I got my Crusader over 10 years > > ago > > > for $400. It needed work and decals. I will explain that with > the > > > picture tomorrow. > > > > As for the one on Ebay which I have seen some PL > > > Crusaders are going for $1500 lately. While $1200 is steep I > > think > > > that the price of others (unless listed wrong and not found on > > Ebay) > > > will continue to rise. My opinion. Thanks for your comment. > > > > > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John Hagen > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:42 AM > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties B-1 > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Jim, > > > > > > > > DON'T Stop! this is interesting stuff you have there. > > > > > > > > And the Crusader will be especially interesting as there has > > been > > > one > > > > on eBay for the last couple of months for a "Buy it now" > price > > of > > > > $1200.00. > > > > > > > > John Hagen > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Gerold, > > > > > How's the weather across the pond. These pictures are > > > > the last of the Trackside Specialties items I have. I'm > > fortunate > > > to > > > > have these and they all are in great shape. Although not mint > I > > > would > > > > say Test Run Only > > > > > This is the B-1, nicknamed the "Rat". It follows the > > > > same construction as the others and is factory painted. The > > info > > > I > > > > have says made in 1966 and only 50 pieces made. I guess the > > > > owner/maker of these engines liked the Pennsylvania as > > everything > > > I > > > > know is a Pennsylvania type. > > > > > I will continue to send you a daily picture / write up > > > > for some lesser know companies but tomorrow I want to send > > > pictures > > > > of a well know companies rare engine. A Penn Line Reading > > > Crusader. > > > > The reason I'm sneaking this in is I love streamlined steam > > > engines. > > > > Let me know if / when I should stop sending. I have a few > > > > vintage,rare and old items, a lot maybe you never heard of. > > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7001	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/17/2008
Subject: knapp pre war Mountain

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                  Glad we were able to finally get the Trackside Specialties B 1 pictures to you . Today's lesson (Ha Ha) is pictures and little write up about  Knapp pre war cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain that had a 6 volt motor. As I said yesterday a lot of people will take a quick look and see Bowser of Redlands California's cast brass Mountain. I will explain as we go.             This Knapp engine was first produced in 1938. The company that made and sold it was    Knapp Electric Inc.      739 Market Street      Indianapolis, Indiana. It seems HO was a second business to their main business of electrical parts.            As I said it was a cast boiler and had a cast tender that was 2 pieces seamed in the middle. My opinion is the parts were cast elsewhere ( MAYBE like Adams & Son ).  The engine is very heavy as is the tender. Not to bad on detail for when made. The engine had one major flaw that probably put Knapp out of HO. You will see the drivers are spoked (unlike the latter Bowser upgrade). It seems that a lot of the insulated drivers shorted out. Owners of the engine started to complain and Knap tried to fix. That's the end of the story that I know about Knapp. I am very fortunate to have a running model that does not short out. It came to me assembled except I had to attach main and siderods along with the valve gear. I don't like to run it because it's 6 volts and does run            There were numerous articles in early Model Railroader issues.  I think one of the best is February 1939. You can see prices at that time and also see the electrical items Knapp produced. Tomorrow I will show you pictures of the one passenger  ( a coach ) they did produce. I have 3 fully assembled with original trucks and odd coupler which I will describe then. I know this Yahoo group had some discussion previously about the then unknown car in past Emails. I was fortunate to be a member of a different Yahoo HO group where someone was looking to have a Knapp car Identified for a while. I was lucky enough to know and have samples and passed on the information for which the gentleman thanked me.                                                                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7002	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/17/2008
Subject: Re: Penn Line Reading Crusader

Jim , and all,         It was just at that time that Champ Decals (if I remember right) was offering to make special runs of decals on a new ALPS printer. To get them made you had to order so many sets at a high price. Thirteen people got together and ordered sets at that time. I sent one original set of decals to Champ and they copied them exact and right color even down to the little Reading diamond for the front. They worked fairly well except they scratched easy. Hard not to show outline of decal on that shiny aluminum sides.       Some years ago I came into contact with Rich Meyer of Champ, and discussed his out of stock decals with him. I learned that he had done all ? decals for Ed Suydam, and he told me he still had all the masters for them somewhere. And, he offered to print each of those decals I would need on his ALPS printer.... in the meantime, he did numerous custom decals for me, my private roadname in different fonts, the Burlington Silver Charger... - amazingly he did three sets for the Charger at only a slightly higher than list price. How about this customer service? Unfortunately he fell sick and passed away before he had time to dig out the Suydam masters. Oh well... but I am glad I had the privilege to talk with him. - When we discussed his contact with Ed Suydam, he mentioned Ed had sent him the body of a preproduction Hollywood car which he (Ed) had painted , as a sample for matching decal colors. Rich never had sent it back , he sold it to me at a fair price. It was covered over and over with decals, which I carefully removed by soaking it in water and decal setting solution.  I had no Hollywood car then, when I bought one much later I found that the second one was considerably smaller!  My guess is that Ed did not have any of his own models at hand when he ordered the decals, and so he painted an International model ( which matches the size of the car I got from Rich) and sent to be used for matching decals. I have never got a drive to complete this body, however I got a second (dummy) car  - I intend to put modern drives under both some day. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7003	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Re: knapp pre war Mountain

Man!   This looks allot like an engine which was one of 3 to 4 in a group of engines I bid on last week on eBay.. I did not recognize it, but it did look allot like the Bowser. I believe it had the spoked drivers.. I will have to go at lunch time and look it up. (I am at work nor)  If I believe it is, I will email the listing...   Unfortunately I was not the high bidder... Should have bid higher..  There may have been two of them in the listing.. I do not remember...   Just a thought... It is really quiet out here in email space this morning.. Not a single message from anyone.. Thought I would get it started...   Had a full pot of coffee this morning before work as I was scheduling my ebay listings to start this Wed & Thurs.  So.. NOW that it is 10:00 AM, it feels like lunch to me and I am bouncing off the walls already...!   Sean --- On Sun, 8/17/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] knapp pre war Mountain To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 10:34 AM Hi Gerold,                  Glad we were able to finally get the Trackside Specialties B 1 pictures to you . Today's lesson (Ha Ha) is pictures and little write up about  Knapp pre war cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain that had a 6 volt motor. As I said yesterday a lot of people will take a quick look and see Bowser of Redlands California's cast brass Mountain. I will explain as we go.             This Knapp engine was first produced in 1938. The company that made and sold it was    Knapp Electric Inc.      739 Market Street      Indianapolis, Indiana. It seems HO was a second business to their main business of electrical parts.            As I said it was a cast boiler and had a cast tender that was 2 pieces seamed in the middle. My opinion is the parts were cast elsewhere ( MAYBE like Adams & Son ).  The engine is very heavy as is the tender. Not to bad on detail for when made. The engine had one major flaw that probably put Knapp out of HO. You will see the drivers are spoked (unlike the latter Bowser upgrade). It seems that a lot of the insulated drivers shorted out. Owners of the engine started to complain and Knap tried to fix. That's the end of the story that I know about Knapp. I am very fortunate to have a running model that does not short out. It came to me assembled except I had to attach main and siderods along with the valve gear. I don't like to run it because it's 6 volts and does run            There were numerous articles in early Model Railroader issues.  I think one of the best is February 1939. You can see prices at that time and also see the electrical items Knapp produced. Tomorrow I will show you pictures of the one passenger  ( a coach ) they did produce. I have 3 fully assembled with original trucks and odd coupler which I will describe then. I know this Yahoo group had some discussion previously about the then unknown car in past Emails. I was fortunate to be a member of a different Yahoo HO group where someone was looking to have a Knapp car Identified for a while. I was lucky enough to know and have samples and passed on the information for which the gentleman thanked me.                                                                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7004	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Knapp Passenger Cars

Attachments : Good Morning Gerold (In the U.S.),                  Hope all is well. These are pictures of original passenger cars made by Knapp to go with their engine I showed you yesterday.                  Although there were write ups in Model Railroader (1938 and 1939) about a Combine being made I have only found Coaches. There were even ads about freight cars being made but I think the problem with the engine stopped Knapp's venture into HO. I was very lucky to come upon these on ebay about 4 years ago. Surprisingly they were listed by the seller as Knapp. The box they were stored in was not original but the owner had written Knapp on it. I got them for a great price. Not to many bids as I don't think many knew what they were. The pictures will show a side view  of one of the three I got and a close up of the original trucks and couplers.                    The Knapp passenger cars were produced in 1938 or 1939. They were the only type of cars I have found. They are  made from a cast  aluminum  material. They are 2 piece being seamed in the middle creating a one piece car  body that includes the sides, roof, floor and ends all in one. For being made in the late 30's they are very well detailed and nice castings. To me as nice as a lot of later cars. The trucks on the pictured item are cast brass yet one of the cars has what looks like cast  copper when cleaned up. Have no idea what would be normal. The couplers are original and unique for Knapp. They are cast brass. They have a long shank that goes back to the passenger truck. It fits in a slot that is cut into the truck and attaches between the truck and body. Talgo like I guess. The coupler end is non working. The coupler is detailed a little on the top but the bottom of the entire coupler is flat. This same set up is used on the Knapp cast brass Mountain engine I showed you yesterday where the original tender truck is slotted to receive the coupler.                   Hope the explanation makes sense. The engines and passenger cars are odd, old, vintage and not well known. Tomorrow another. Harris - Matteaucci Cast Brass E-7's  A powered B dummy.                                                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7005	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Re: knapp pre war Mountain

HO Scale Steam Locomotive Parts Lot Item number: 120291685544

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7006	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Knapp versus Bowser Mountain

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                Going to sneak these pictures in of the Bill Bowser / Redlands CA cast brass Mountain so you can compare it to the Knapp Mountain. Again this has nothing to do with today's Bowser / Lew English items, only the Brass Mountain.                 You will see quickly the main difference between these engines. Mainly the drivers which Bill Bowser changed to correct the Knapp problem. Also the running gear changed especially the main rod which was one piece in the Knapp engine. Another unseen change is the motor which became a 12 motor. Mr. Bowser's engine ran a lot better with no problem. He marketed it along with a 4-6-2 Pacific and a 4-6-6-4 Challenger under the Bowser name made in Redlands CA.                  I have included a picture of the one piece cast brass tender that was used by both Knapp and Bill Bowser. It has original trucks and that odd Knapp coupler on it. This coupler , as far as I know, not used by Bill Bowser.                Again sent these pictures to compare while Knapp pictures fresh in your mind.                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7007	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Re: knapp pre war Mountain

Hi Jim,   I do not know why you did not see the pic.. It showed up in my reply that I received..   In any case.. Here is the number just in case it does not appear either...   120291685544   Sean   --- On Mon, 8/18/08, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] knapp pre war Mountain To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 10:23 AM HO Scale Steam Locomotive Parts Lot Item number: 120291685544

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7008	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Re: WINTON Allegheny 2-6-6-6

Denny, Thanks for the very complete history of the Winton/MaRa Allegheny's, it fits what I know and expands on it nicely. I found a Winton 2-6-6-6 tender kit on eBay some years ago, but found it so crude, I sold it a little later. Last winter I purchased a group of parts that appear to be left over production parts for the MaRa Allegheny. Lots of drivers in various stages of finishing: center, turned and raw, tires, axles, bearings, and even complete wheelsets. Some frame partss and cylinder blocks (but not the rear covers) huge firebox castings, and more. Sets of valve gear castings which look a lot like the Kemtron/PSC baker parts, except that they are a little smaller and better cast ! I have *almost*, but not quite a complete kit, and lots of extra parts in various categories. if anyone knows where I can find more of these fine MaRa Allegheny parts and castings, I would be very interested !! And if someone is interested in some of these parts, please contact be off list. Dave Ayers dave@... brassbackshop.com >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7009	From: Garry Spear	Date: 8/18/2008
Subject: Help with eBay Car ID

I would like some comments about eBay item: 150284520897 Described as: MAIN LINE MODELS? Vintage PFE Express Refrigerator Looks OK but does not match any of the normal Mail Line numbers for A PFE Express Reefer. Any thoughts. Kitbash? Can any body identify the sides? I'm the seller and just want to know if my id is bad. PS. I've been running (off and on) a Knapp mountain since 1948. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7010	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Knapp Passenger Cars - Exacta package arrived

Jim Heckard wrote: Good Morning Gerold (In the U.S.),                  Hope all is well. These are pictures of original passenger cars made by Knapp to go with their engine I showed you yesterday.                  Although there were write ups in Model Railroader (1938 and 1939) about a Combine being made I have only found Coaches. There were even ads about freight cars being made but I think the problem with the engine stopped Knapp's venture into HO. I was very lucky to come upon these on ebay about 4 years ago. Surprisingly they were listed by the seller as Knapp. The box they were stored in was not original but the owner had written Knapp on it. I got them for a great price. Not to many bids as I don't think many knew what they were. The pictures will show a side view  of one of the three I got and a close up of the original trucks and couplers.                    The Knapp passenger cars were produced in 1938 or 1939. They were the only type of cars I have found. They are  made from a cast  aluminum  material. They are 2 piece being seamed in the middle creating a one piece car  body that includes the sides, roof, floor and ends all in one. For being made in the late 30's they are very well detailed and nice castings. To me as nice as a lot of later cars. The trucks on the pictured item are cast brass yet one of the cars has what looks like cast  copper when cleaned up. Have no idea what would be normal. The couplers are original and unique for Knapp. They are cast brass. They have a long shank that goes back to the passenger truck. It fits in a slot that is cut into the truck and attaches between the truck and body. Talgo like I guess. The coupler end is non working. The coupler is detailed a little on the top but the bottom of the entire coupler is flat. This same set up is used on the Knapp cast brass Mountain engine I showed you yesterday where the original tender truck is slotted to receive the coupler.                   Hope the explanation makes sense. The engines and passenger cars are odd, old, vintage and not well known. Tomorrow another. Harris - Matteaucci Cast Brass E-7's  A powered B dummy.                                                                                                                       Jim _ Hi Jim. thanks for the Knapp pictures, have learned again!  Will save everything on my harddrive. Your package arrived yesterday, I notice that some of the heavyweight sides from The Reporting Mark match the orphan sides I have, and others are identical to ebay "Super Scale" pictures I just found in my files ... so I consider this a proof that the companies, or at least their products, were identical. Also notice that there was a third Interurban kit ... I have two ( curvesider and IRR combine) , did not know about the third one . Also notice an hihero unknown baggage ... With the material you have sent, and the material I have on file I think I have identified all cars except one diner which does not show up anywhere. Will have to reorganize my folders and  rename pictures correctly. What is still completely missing is any info about Harriman cars. Many thanks! Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7011	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Knapp Passenger Cars - Exacta package arrived

This sounds like the PA casting I got at the Madison train show last year........... While it might not be Knapp, it could be made by someone related to making those Knapp passenger cars. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Aug 19, 2008, at 2:06 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote: > Jim Heckard wrote: >> >> Good Morning Gerold (In the U.S.), >> Hope all is well. These are pictures of original >> passenger cars made by Knapp to go with their engine I showed you >> yesterday. ............... >> The Knapp passenger cars were produced in 1938 >> or 1939. They were the only type of cars I have found. They are >> made from a cast aluminum material. They are 2 piece being >> seamed in the middle creating a one piece car body that includes >> the sides, roof, floor and ends all in one. For being made in the >> late 30's they are very well detailed and nice >> castings. ..............

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7012	From: erieberk	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Help with eBay Car ID

Garry, From what I can see of these sides, they look to be Main Line Models in the limited lighting they are in. I can't make out the side number distinctly, so I would not even be able to verify this number (if I could reference it). I have Main Line Models as a near-complete (95%) collection, except for some of the stock cars (36') which I wasn't interested in at the time. As with some of my manufacturers, I never recorded the car side numbers if the series were limited to just one (or two) numbers for each roadname. And, as with some other series, I now have a lot of work to do in digging them all out to get this info for spread sheets. I just checked out the HOSC&H-SIG "The Reporting Mark" issue for this info on Main Line Models (Vol. 11, No. 1 -- Oct. '92) and saw where Dave Spanagel's article on this manufacturer does not include any car numbers either, but he does say that the Pacific Fruit Express reefer, kit # XR-1, had it's kit number changed to XR-2 in 1963. Perhaps it's car side number was also changed at this time. I only have one example of this kit. This possible change in car numbers may be why you're not getting a match from your listing of Main Line Models for this car. You could start off though, on your eBay page, by changing the descrition of this car. You have it as being a Silver Streak Caboose, in Mint condition and Brand New. I don't know if just "freight car" is customary for such a listing, unless you need to change it to Express Car or Express Reefer. I regret I couldn't help you more, but maybe this will be a start. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > I would like some comments about eBay item: 150284520897 > > Described as: MAIN LINE MODELS? Vintage PFE Express Refrigerator > > Looks OK but does not match any of the normal Mail Line numbers for A > PFE Express Reefer. > > Any thoughts. Kitbash? Can any body identify the sides? > > I'm the seller and just want to know if my id is bad. > > PS. I've been running (off and on) a Knapp mountain since 1948. > > Garry Spear >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7013	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Harris & Matteucci

Attachments : Hi Gerold,            The pictures are of a company called Harris & Matteucci.  They are HEAVY ( 1/8 the " thick) Cast which they called Manganese Bronze (just look like brass to me), "a metal while very tough is easily worked and soldered to".  They call them EMC E-7 bodies. Mine are a powered A and a dummy B.  The companies address was   928 Fitzwater Street  Philadelphia Pa.  My information said these were made in 1947. The cast bodies have a raised large H&M inside the body. Some people have reported no raised letters.                       They were mentioned in Model Railroader and "described very well". The ads were by UMP ( Universal Model Products). A photo of the UMP power and trailer showed that it fit perfectly into these units, although the side frames look more like an FM. EMC frames can easily be substituted.               The original castings came with open spaces for the windows but the screens were cast into the bodies. Also the steps were solid. When I got my examples some one had tried to cut out the area of the screens and open up the ladders. I had to file the openings for the screens square and insert brass screen and file the ladders better. Contrary to the company saying easy to work with was wrong,at least to me. They were extremely hard to file using little files and the thickness didn't help.                                                                                                                     Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7014	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Knapp Passenger Cars - Exacta package arrived

Mike,                  I have no information about Knapp making a PA and doubt one was made. Remember I never say never. What I THINK you might be describing is a cast Aluminum type material PA made by Hobbies Inc. I don't have an example only pictures and write up and NOT IN FRONT OF ME. I have a friend in California has the model and can get a picture sent to me if you would like to compare. Again this is a spur of the moment GUESS. There were a lot of brass material PA castings but the only shiny Aluminum like material (similar to Knapp) is Hobbies Inc. They had ads in Model Railroader years ago. Hobbytown and Lindsay PA's are a dull type casting so I eliminated them.               I have to leave now but will check my information when I get back.                                                                                                          Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Knapp Passenger Cars - Exacta package arrived This sounds like the PA casting I got at the Madison train show last year........ ... While it might not be Knapp, it could be made by someone related to making those Knapp passenger cars. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Aug 19, 2008, at 2:06 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote: > Jim Heckard wrote: >> >> Good Morning Gerold (In the U.S.), >> Hope all is well. These are pictures of original >> passenger cars made by Knapp to go with their engine I showed you >> yesterday. ............ ... >> The Knapp passenger cars were produced in 1938 >> or 1939. They were the only type of cars I have found. They are >> made from a cast aluminum material. They are 2 piece being >> seamed in the middle creating a one piece car body that includes >> the sides, roof, floor and ends all in one. For being made in the >> late 30's they are very well detailed and nice >> castings. ............ ..

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7015	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Where Infomation comes from

Hi Gerold and others,              I think it is important for me to state where my information comes from since I don't state it each time. I compile it from many different sources and try to write the important facts.            (1)    From my collection and examples I have along with the paperwork for it. I don't want to write something if I don't have the item in front of me   (2)  Other friends and collectors I have meet. This includes Jim Lenahan author of Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons Volumes I & II. I shared many letters with Mr. Lenahan about HO items. It was his plan to update his books with new information but his death ended that.   (3)  The HOSC&H-SIG  (HO Scale Collectors & History- Special Interest Group) started by Dave Spanagel (author of the Greenberg Varney Guide ) through it's members and it's newsletter "The Reporting Mark"   (4) All Greenberg books on HO  plus other books and stories written by other people.                             Funny how all this information assembled to talk about one item sometimes has differing facts.  I try to only post what coincides and just trying to get it all together can be a long process.  Anyone having different information is welcome to add to these items.                                                                               Regards      Jim Heckard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7016	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Knapp Passenger Cars - Exacta package arrived

This shell has solid windows and is thicker and otherwise differently detailed than the HobbyTown-Lindsey PA's................ as a bit of comparison. It's surprising that the alloy is still bright and very shiny after all these years. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:24 AM, Jim Heckard wrote: Mike,                  I have no information about Knapp making a PA and doubt one was made. Remember I never say never. What I THINK you might be describing is a cast Aluminum type material PA made by Hobbies Inc. I don't have an example only pictures and write up and NOT IN FRONT OF ME. I have a friend in California has the model and can get a picture sent to me if you would like to compare. Again this is a spur of the moment GUESS. There were a lot of brass material PA castings but the only shiny Aluminum like material (similar to Knapp) is Hobbies Inc. They had ads in Model Railroader years ago. Hobbytown and Lindsay PA's are a dull type casting so I eliminated them.               I have to leave now but will check my information when I get back.                                                                                                          Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers This sounds like the PA casting I got at the Madison train show last year........ ... While it might not be Knapp, it could be made by someone related to making those Knapp passenger cars. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Aug 19, 2008, at 2:06 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote: > Jim Heckard wrote: >> >> Good Morning Gerold (In the U.S.), >> Hope all is well. These are pictures of original >> passenger cars made by Knapp to go with their engine I showed you >> yesterday. ............ ... >> The Knapp passenger cars were produced in 1938 >> or 1939. They were the only type of cars I have found. They are >> made from a cast aluminum material. They are 2 piece being >> seamed in the middle creating a one piece car body that includes >> the sides, roof, floor and ends all in one. For being made in the >> late 30's they are very well detailed and nice >> castings. ............ ..

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7017	From: Garry Spear	Date: 8/19/2008
Subject: Re: Help with eBay Car ID

Hi All, I just reexamined the car is decaled lettered, not factory lettered.  I brightened the pictures.  I still think it is a main line body because the construction details match the C.H.& D. I currently have listed. Thanks all for your review and information. Garry Spear On 8/19/08, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote: Garry, From what I can see of these sides, they look to be Main Line Models in the limited lighting they are in. I can't make out the side number distinctly, so I would not even be able to verify this number (if I could reference it). I have Main Line Models as a near-complete (95%) collection, except for some of the stock cars (36') which I wasn't interested in at the time. As with some of my manufacturers, I never recorded the car side numbers if the series were limited to just one (or two) numbers for each roadname. And, as with some other series, I now have a lot of work to do in digging them all out to get this info for spread sheets. I just checked out the HOSC&H-SIG "The Reporting Mark" issue for this info on Main Line Models (Vol. 11, No. 1 -- Oct. '92) and saw where Dave Spanagel's article on this manufacturer does not include any car numbers either, but he does say that the Pacific Fruit Express reefer, kit # XR-1, had it's kit number changed to XR-2 in 1963. Perhaps it's car side number was also changed at this time. I only have one example of this kit. This possible change in car numbers may be why you're not getting a match from your listing of Main Line Models for this car. You could start off though, on your eBay page, by changing the descrition of this car. You have it as being a Silver Streak Caboose, in Mint condition and Brand New. I don't know if just "freight car" is customary for such a listing, unless you need to change it to Express Car or Express Reefer. I regret I couldn't help you more, but maybe this will be a start. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> wrote: > > I would like some comments about eBay item: 150284520897 > > Described as: MAIN LINE MODELS? Vintage PFE Express Refrigerator > > Looks OK but does not match any of the normal Mail Line numbers for A > PFE Express Reefer. > > Any thoughts. Kitbash? Can any body identify the sides? > > I'm the seller and just want to know if my id is bad. > > PS. I've been running (off and on) a Knapp mountain since 1948. > > Garry Spear >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7018	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci

Jim, > .... The cast bodies have a raised large H&M inside the body. Some > people have reported no raised letters. > They were mentioned in Model Railroader and > "described very well". The ads were by UMP ( Universal Model Products). Is it possible this company was identical to UMPCO ? I often see generic open end trolleys with this name. > A photo of the UMP power and trailer showed that it fit perfectly into > these units, although the side frames look more like an FM. EMC frames > can easily be substituted. > The original castings came with open spaces for the > windows but the screens were cast into the bodies. Also the steps were > solid. When I got my examples some one had tried to cut out the area > of the screens and open up the ladders. I had to file the openings for > the screens square and insert brass screen and file the ladders > better. Contrary to the company saying easy to work with was wrong,at > least to me. They were extremely hard to file using little files and > the thickness didn't help. smart advertising... Gerold > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7019	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Schrader EP-4

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                 Got a reply from you that is a little confusing. It has some of my Email to you but no text you wrote. Don't know if it got lost out there in space.                The pictures are for a Schrader New Haven EP-4 that was produced by    Albert Schrader   of   Schrader Metal Specialties   153 Ewingville Road    Trenton 8 New Jersey. This item was first made in 1957. It is a very heavy thick cast brass (exactly the make up unknown). There were only 75 pieces made and it has been stated "This is one of the rarest modern production locomotives". It has two motors, Pittman DC-60 powering 4 axles, that are back to back. A picture and write up appeared in Railroad Model Craftsman's Loco Builder Photo-10.                  My engine came partially assembled with original box and plans. Inside the box is the guarantee card that it is serial number 00019 and was purchased 11-8-57. The body was originally a solid casting. Previous owner tried to open windows and other places with what looked like a drill bit only.Because of the heavy construction and inside bracing of the casting the owner didn't succeed to well. I had to TRY to mill out and straighten the edges. Due to this the side windows in the cab ends of my engine are over size. I will try to fill them in a little by building window frames to make the windows more to scale size, MAYBE. Other then the 4 ladders, which I have but didn't put on because they interfered with the side frames on turning, this engine is complete.                 Schrader also produced a GG-1 which I will show tomorrow. They had plans to build a New Haven EP-3 Box Cab along with the Pennsylvania P5a box cab and the modified streamlined version of the P5. Never heard any more that these produced or sold.                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7020	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Hobbies Inc.

Attachments : Hi Mike,               This is a picture of a picture of Hobbies Inc. PA and PB. They are owned  by a friend and are painted. These were made from an aluminum casting that stayed very shiny. I have also ask my friend if he knows of any PA that match your description. See if these in any way match the detail of yours.            Like they say "a picture worth a 1,000 words". If possible can you send a picture of your engine body ?       Chuck    Don't put these pictures in my album. I don't have these engines.                                                                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7021	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbies Inc.

Those sure could be from the same maker......... Here are my snaps...... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 20, 2008, at 9:31 AM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Mike,               This is a picture of a picture of Hobbies Inc. PA and PB. They are owned  by a friend and are painted. These were made from an aluminum casting that stayed very shiny. I have also ask my friend if he knows of any PA that match your description. See if these in any way match the detail of yours.            Like they say "a picture worth a 1,000 words". If possible can you send a picture of your engine body ?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7022	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbies Inc.

Geez, Mike. Those look hefty enough to show up on CSI as the "blunt object" used to bash the head of a wealthy 65 year old modeler by his 25 year old wife's boyfriend. Then boy friend would then send the weapon to his fathers un-wealthy 65 year old modeler in Milwaukee who would power it, paint it, detail and win the diesel class in a WISE Division meet. But Catherine Willows (couldn't leave her out) would trace the package, spray it, shine the light on it and find the tell-tale trace blood evidence. After which the model would end up on Grissom's desk. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > > Those sure could be from the same maker......... > > Here are my snaps...... > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Aug 20, 2008, at 9:31 AM, Jim Heckard wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7023	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Revell 1961 Chryslers

Don, I missed any message regarding the photo you posted of the 1961 Chrysler products. Interesting. I never realized they made such a variety of Mopars back then (Revell that is). Lets see, left to right there is a Dodge Lancer, Dodge Dart (remember Dart was the intermediate car in 60 - 62), Plymouth Valiant, Dodge Dart, Chrysler Convertible, Imperial, and a Plymouth wagon. The wagon is the only one sorta hard to make out in the photo, probably due to it being in the back, but they all look rather well done. And they are obviously 61's, except the Lancer (61 or 62) and Valiant (60, 61, or 62) but then they were hard to distinguish by year in 12 inch-to-the- foot scale too. Nice collection. John Hagen St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7024	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Revell 1961 Chryslers

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 6:25 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Revell 1961 Chryslers > Don, > > I missed any message regarding the photo you posted of the 1961 > Chrysler products. Interesting. I never realized they made such a > variety of Mopars back then (Revell that is). > > Lets see, left to right there is a Dodge Lancer, Dodge Dart (remember > Dart was the intermediate car in 60 - 62), Plymouth Valiant, Dodge > Dart, Chrysler Convertible, Imperial, and a Plymouth wagon. The wagon > is the only one sorta hard to make out in the photo, probably due to it > being in the back, but they all look rather well done. And they are > obviously 61's, except the Lancer (61 or 62) and Valiant (60, 61, or > 62) but then they were hard to distinguish by year in 12 inch-to-the- > foot scale too. > > Nice collection. > > > John Hagen > St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI You didn't see a message because there wasn't one, I kind of snuck them in there. Of the two Dodge Hardtops, one is a Dart, the other one is a Polara. They were sold individually for 49 cents each with the plated parts. In 1962 they reissued them as a kit of all seven with a "customizing" parts tree and decals. This was the set that was reissued in the 1980's by ConCor/Heljan, but by that time the dies were in pretty sad shape, especially the front grill/bumper parts for the Chrysler ragtop, the Imperial and the full size Plymouth wagon. I'm told Revell's plan was to do this every year, as 1:87 promo models for Chrysler, but the slot car craze convinced them HO was dead, so the set was never repeated. I had several sets of the Heljan reissues already, but none of the originals. I got these when I found a guy on eBay selling old Revell who happened to live in the Falls about two blocks from where Lexy (SWMBO) works. I contacted him about visiting and took a ride out there one night a month or so ago, got the seven cars, an original "maintenance shed" kit, a "sand & pump house" kit and a "Diesel Fuel Tank" kit, all unbuilt originals, paid him fifty bucks for the whole lot, which, when I see I what they sell for on eBay, was a pretty good deal (the cars alone have gone for as much as ten bucks EACH). Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7025	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Hobbies Inc.

Hi Mike B,          I think we got a match to your question about the shiny PA body you have. I don't have this engine so I sent your pictures to my friend to look at. It was his engine pictures I sent you to compare to.                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7026	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbies Inc.

Mike,              My friend Jeff in California just got back to me. I sent him your pictures. He feels confident that your engine is a Hobbies Inc PA.                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:41 PM Subject: Hobbies Inc. Hi Mike B,          I think we got a match to your question about the shiny PA body you have. I don't have this engine so I sent your pictures to my friend to look at. It was his engine pictures I sent you to compare to.                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7027	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/20/2008
Subject: Re: Revell 1961 Chryslers

OK, Don. The Gold one is a Polara. That would have been easier to tell with a back end view. I had to scratch my head on the differences, which, in this scale would show up best in the rear end and 1/4 panels. Too bad they only did the 61's. The 60's were a better looking bunch. Well, sort of. The Dodge Dart and Polara/Monaco lines were much better looking than the 61's. Can't say the same for the Lancer as they didn't exit in 1960, just it's cousin, the Valiant. The 1960 Chrysler was better looking but not tremendously so. And the Plymouth (except little-changed Valiant) looked pretty strange both years. I had just paged through the Walthers catalog earlier today looking for a 1940 Ford truck (no luck) and noticed that the range of HO vehicles has definitely gone modern over the past few years. These things are getting as rare in 1:87 as they are in 1:1. I hadn't considered collecting old HO vehicles but I'm getting the message that this is a part of Vintage HO the needs attention. Thank you for having the foresight to realize it when you did. John Hagen St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Of the two Dodge Hardtops, one is a Dart, the other one is a Polara. > > They were sold individually for 49 cents each with the plated parts. In > 1962 they reissued them as a kit of all seven with a "customizing" parts > tree and decals. This was the set that was reissued in the 1980's by > ConCor/Heljan, but by that time the dies were in pretty sad shape, > especially the front grill/bumper parts for the Chrysler ragtop, the > Imperial and the full size Plymouth wagon. > > I'm told Revell's plan was to do this every year, as 1:87 promo models for > Chrysler, but the slot car craze convinced them HO was dead, so the set was > never repeated. > > I had several sets of the Heljan reissues already, but none of the > originals. I got these when I found a guy on eBay selling old Revell who > happened to live in the Falls about two blocks from where Lexy (SWMBO) > works. I contacted him about visiting and took a ride out there one night a > month or so ago, got the seven cars, an original "maintenance shed" kit, a > "sand & pump house" kit and a "Diesel Fuel Tank" kit, all unbuilt originals, > paid him fifty bucks for the whole lot, which, when I see I what they sell > for on eBay, was a pretty good deal (the cars alone have gone for as much as > ten bucks EACH). > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7028	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: program failure

Hi Gerold,          Today's pictures will be late or miss today. Something happened to my camera program. Keeps saying critical error, server execution failed. Might have to uninstall and reinstall.                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7029	From: madchemep2@aol.com	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Re: Revell 1961 Chryslers

How times have changed !! Back in that time period I used to buy  cars three for $25.00. They were 1:1 scale too. Now the Revell models are ten bucks each on Ebay ? Al Campbell It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7030	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Schrader GG-1

Attachments : Hi Gerold,               Got my camera program problem fixed. It was easy. Son home from college before starting Senior year. Woke him up. He fixed it quick.                Pictures are of the other Schrader engine I have. I have only heard of these 2 produced. This is the GG-1. Same construction and materials are used as the EP-4. Both engines use the same frame,drivers and double motor. There were only 250 of the GG-1's made. While my engines has the driver gears exposed in slots underneath there are reports of another run that had the gearing entirely covered.                There is a picture of this engine in the RMC magazines Locos Builders Photo. I have the number but forgot to write it down. If in anyway important I will find and send.                                              Later               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7031	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Re: Schrader GG-1

Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi Gerold, > Got my camera program problem fixed. It was easy. Son > home from college before starting Senior year. Woke him up. He fixed > it quick. > Pictures are of the other Schrader engine I have. I > have only heard of these 2 produced. This is the GG-1. Same > construction and materials are used as the EP-4. Both engines use the > same frame,drivers and double motor. There were only 250 of the GG-1's > made. While my engines has the driver gears exposed in slots > underneath there are reports of another run that had the gearing > entirely covered. > There is a picture of this engine in the RMC magazines > Locos Builders Photo. I have the number but forgot to write it down. > If in anyway important I will find and send. > Later Jim > Hi Jim, I have both Schrader RMC loco builder indexs articles on file. Have scanned most of this index, a valuable reference. I want to go through all my magazines, this is RMC and MR from the late fourties until 1990 , and Mainline Mo0deler almost complete, and scan everything of interest... have done maybe 25 -30 % until now. Its valuable to have children with computer knowledge. My son is fifteen now, he is about to overtake me now in respect of this. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7032	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Varney 4-8-4 Electric

Attachments : Hi Gerold,          Have to send you tomorrows pictures today. Have to go to  hospital to have test done as I am part of a research study ( living with no brain Ha Ha). It's really a study on a new blood thinner. Have to go once a month.         Back to trains which is what this is about. I know you really like electrics. You have some beautiful items. This electric is from a well know vintage company but has been called the "rarest engine they made"         This is also for Ray W  who has one of these engines. I'm writing the narrative in a condensed form from the original assembly sheet and Greenberg's Varney Guide by D Spanagel.  If I miss any important point please let me know.         { 410 ]  Streamlined 4-8-4 Electric locomotive kit  Pennsylvania       First sold in 1938.  Fewer then 200 made. It was a poor representation of the prototype which was a GG-1. Looks most like an R-1. This was a shortened adaptation for small radius. The body was an Aluminum Sand casting. A study of the instructions reveals drivers and chassis were adapted from the standard 2-8-0 Consolidation which I assume, because of when made, was the pre war Consy with V-1 motor. The lead and trailing trucks were the roller bearing design used on the streamlined tender.         Original match plate mold for this engine now owned by Lew English / Bowser. I believe that Bowser reproduced some of these bodies for sale but had the Bowser name raised inside the roof. Copies have also appeared on Ebay without the Bowser name inside and sold as "Exact Originals". Fancy name for reproductions.        I found the body for mine being used as a paper weight with nothing inside. I bought a frame and drivers from an elderly gentleman who was a member of our HOSC&H-SIG group,since I had no extras at that time. I had a number of train collectors view my body and pictures to find out if authentic. One man who had originally bought his engine in 1938 so his is real. He felt mine original.      Many members of the HOSC&H-SIG viewed it also with some even visiting to personally see it along with my collection. There consensus is it is original.      I did have to modify it as I have an open frame motor driving it along with solid side rods. I didn't have nor could afford the V-1 motor at the time. The solid side rods was my change instead of using the 3 piece set from the pre war.      Hope no mistakes or typos.                                                                   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7033	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 Electric

Jim, Touching base with you on these electrics, I just wanted to mention that I have two of the Schraeder GG-1's as kits-in-box (flat box, similar to Winton Allegheny kit box but smaller, and slightly larger than the Famoco kit box -- orange top w/black printing).  Also have their EP-4 kit-in-box (same size box - yellow top w/black printing).  As you have said that Schraeder made only 250 of the GG-1's, I was wondering how may EP-4's they made.  Seems it was much harder for me to find the EP-4 than to find a GG-1.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7034	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/21/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 Electric

Ray,          Thanks for your reply. According to the RMC Loco Builders Photo of the Schrader EP-4 and some other sources and people there were 75 pieces made. Yes a lot harder to find.           I have to go back and check the sizes and colors of my FAMOCO GG-1 box and my Winton Allegheny box and compare with your boxes. My Winton box is long and narrow and the FAMOCO GG-1 box is more a rectangle that has a Blue,Yellow, Red and White top. You description for the Schrader engines boxes sounds the same as mine. They are more a square. I'll have to take pictures of them to show and see how they match yours. It might be late tomorrow evening till I can. It will be interesting to see if FAMOCO AND Winton boxes different.                                                                                                                   Jim    ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 Electric Jim, Touching base with you on these electrics, I just wanted to mention that I have two of the Schraeder GG-1's as kits-in-box (flat box, similar to Winton Allegheny kit box but smaller, and slightly larger than the Famoco kit box -- orange top w/black printing).  Also have their EP-4 kit-in-box (same size box - yellow top w/black printing).  As you have said that Schraeder made only 250 of the GG-1's, I was wondering how may EP-4's they made.  Seems it was much harder for me to find the EP-4 than to find a GG-1.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7035	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 Electric

Jim,  I used Winton and Famoco boxes only as examples of them being near a similar size to the Schrader boxes only as they are flat and sort of rectangular as opposed to Bowser cast brass Mountain and Varney 4-Sections-in-One kit boxes which are high rather than being flat.  BTW, as Schrader wasn't around for very long, the address shown on my boxes no doubt is the same as on yours; Schrader Metal Specialties, 153 Ewingville Road, Trenton 8, NJ. The Schrader kit boxes (red box, white label on top and end, w/blue printing) I have all measure 8 1/4" wide x 12 7/16" long x 1 5/8" high (the tops' lip extending down only 1 3/8").  The Winton kit boxes (both the Allegheny and the Berkshire boxes are the same size) are 11 9/16" wide x 13 7/8" long x 1 3/4" high (with the top having a full 1 3/4" lip).  In checking out my Bowser of Redlands, CA Challenger kit boxes, these seem to be more similar in shape and size to Schrader's, being 8 3/4" wide x 11 1/4" long x 2" high (w/full top lip).  I can't put my hands on my Famoco kit box right now as its buried with loads of other stuff, but your description of its colors sounds the same as what I have.   The Lindsay kit boxes that I have, for their PA's (2000 HP ALCo Road Engines) are similar in width, well - 7/8" shorter, and the same height (7 3/8" wide x 1 5/8" high, but with a 1 1/8" top lip) to Schrader, but at 11 7/16" long its a full inch shorter lengthwise and with having only a 1 1/8" lip on the lid it just appears so much less substantial, but of a similar shape.   I haven't mentioned it, but the Winton tender kits were also sold separately; they came also in red boxes -- measuring 8 5/16" long x 2 3/4" wide x 1 1/2" high.  Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7036	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Boxes

Attachments : Hi Ray,               I was suppose to have appointment at hospital today. They call me at 8:00 AM to tell me not to come for 9:30 AM appointment till Monday       As for box sizes. I'm sending 3 pictures (FAMOCO, Winton and Schrader). I measured them and might be slightly off. Did not measure heights of box              FAMOCO ( Famous Model Company, Inc.) GG-1 box     11 1/4" x 5 3/4"                    Same address as you state               Winton Allegheny box.     13 1/4" x 3 1/4"         This box seems to be a long skinnier box then your Winton Boxes. My opinion is that it contained the Engine only ??   You mentioned the tender being sold separately. I guess they sold engine separately too              Schrader EP-4 box         12 3/8" x 7 3/4"      Looks exactly like your Schrader boxes             You are fortunate to have almost mint unassembled engines in great boxes. As a poor man I had to take a little lesser quality to get in my collection, but still able to find samples                                                                                                        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7037	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: FAMOCO GG-1

Attachments : Hi Gerold,            Since my appointment at hospital cancelled till Monday I though I would send you pictures and story of FAMOCO GG-1. Will attempt to try to tell you the story taken mostly from excerpts from the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter  "The Reporting Mark" It might be tough as I have conflicting information from many different people having the engine also. I have found only two engines made by FAMOCO (Famous Model Company, Inc.)  101 N. Grand Avenue  Baldwin, Long Island NY. This story is only about the GG-1. Will pass info tomorrow on the B-1. First information was the announcement of the 2 engines ( GG-1 and B-1) in 1949. (FAMOCO also made a GG-1 in "OO" according to Model Railroader in 1947). The first instruction were drawn by Menten Jr. A question arises was he the owner or just the draftsman ? (anybody know)           Announcement of the HO version appeared in MR Dec 1949. The first set of instructions ( two versions made) were published on heavy stock manila  colored paper 22" x 15". One person states" All had Diecast two piece bodies soldered together along a seam that runs full length.That seam was machined to indivisibility on the entire length         The next paragraphs were written by a Mr. Frank Bell Jr. and appeared in our newsletter. "The Reporting Mark". Mr. Bell is extremely knowledgeable about all HO but his main focus is Mantua from the beginning. His collection puts mine to shame as he has engines I only wish for. Names like Conover, George Stock, Walthers pre war 4-6-4 Baltic and Aristo Rossi 4-4-2 Streamlined Hiawatha made by Rivarossi and sold by Polk's under their Aristo Craft name, hench Aristo Rossi, to name a few. He states               " There are two versions of the FAMOCO GG-1. One version has 2 DC-60 Pittman motors with all drivers geared. The second version uses a single DC-71 motor suspended from the inside of the body and drives the truck shafts through pulleys and belts. This is the version I have same as picture. Frank has both versions. The trucks and under frames appear to be Cadmium (More dangerous then lead I think) and are very fine castings".          The pantagraphs used by FAMOCO on their engines are unique as they came in a little box of cast pieces you assembled from a sheet they provide. I have included a picture of the box, pieces and 2 completed pantagraphs and the Walther's decals that were in the box.      This engine was bought just as you see it. I can only judge the accuracy of above text as it relates to my sample. I will send the 2 copies of GG-1 assembly sheets after this goes and I take pictures. if I didn't type a mistake it will be a miracle.                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7038	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1

Jim , thanks for Famoco pictures and info. My assumption was that the GG1 used two of the B1 drives, is this correct for version 1? And now the real crazy coincidence - when I looked at the pantograph box picture, I immidiately knew what the parts in the orphan box to my right are... two damged Famoco pans, two GG1 sideframes, one GG1 pilot/ end beam assembly... got this last year with an incomplete brass loco! Unfortunately the lower struts of the pantographs are broken... did the B1 use the same pans? If yes, I would try to fix them somehow... my pair of B1s has some brass pantographs, definitely vintage , and both different, I think of Japanese orgin. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7039	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: plans for FAMOCO GG-1

Attachments :     Gerold                                                                                                                                                                                       These are the two sets of plans I have. My engine matches the first set. Since this plan and engine show a gear to gear drive I have to wonder if the were 3 drives. The 2 mentioned in the article (1) two motors, (2) suspended motor with belts and pulleys for driving and (3) the gear to gear as shown in my plans and engine. While the story I first quoted from was from Oct 2000 maybe the information has changed over time. I doubt any are a modification as plans are available with the engines.   So this is where the fun begins. Anyone help to clear it up ?????    I sent pictures of my FAMOCO GG-earlier with other boxes.                                                                                        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7040	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: FAMOCO correction

Gerold,                                             Read these messages I sent countless times. After sending the first I found mistakes. Pantographs not Pantagraphs. Second a little confusing. In first text I wrote mine like described one motor pulley belt system . NOT SO.  Mine is like the one motor gear to gear drive in the picture of the first set of plans. Hope that straightens that out. Have to write these messages in the morning when my brain clearer.                                                                                                              Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7041	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1

Gerold                             I have to look at the drive in my B-1. It came to me assembled with a truly outstanding paint job. I will let you know tomorrow when I send the B-1 picture and information.             The original B-1 should have the same metal kit that you assembled like the GG-1. I imagine so many broke easily that people just put on brass Pantographs. Castings were brittle easy to break. I think you will have trouble trying to fix.                                                                                                             Jim                                                          ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] FAMOCO GG-1 Jim , thanks for Famoco pictures and info. My assumption was that the GG1 used two of the B1 drives, is this correct for version 1? And now the real crazy coincidence - when I looked at the pantograph box picture, I immidiately knew what the parts in the orphan box to my right are... two damged Famoco pans, two GG1 sideframes, one GG1 pilot/ end beam assembly... got this last year with an incomplete brass loco! Unfortunately the lower struts of the pantographs are broken... did the B1 use the same pans? If yes, I would try to fix them somehow... my pair of B1s has some brass pantographs, definitely vintage , and both different, I think of Japanese orgin. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7042	From: trainjerr	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 Electric

J--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Gerold, > Have to send you tomorrows pictures today. Have to go to hospital to have test done as I am part of a research study ( living with no brain Ha Ha). It's really a study on a new blood thinner. Have to go once a month. > Back to trains which is what this is about. I know you really like electrics. You have some beautiful items. This electric is from a well know vintage company but has been called the "rarest engine they made" > This is also for Ray W who has one of these engines. I'm writing the narrative in a condensed form from the original assembly sheet and Greenberg's Varney Guide by D Spanagel. If I miss any important point please let me know. > { 410 ] Streamlined 4-8-4 Electric locomotive kit Pennsylvania First sold in 1938. Fewer then 200 made. It was a poor representation of the prototype which was a GG-1. Looks most like an R-1. This was a shortened adaptation for small radius. The body was an Aluminum Sand casting. A study of the instructions reveals drivers and chassis were adapted from the standard 2-8-0 Consolidation which I assume, because of when made, was the pre war Consy with V-1 motor. The lead and trailing trucks were the roller bearing design used on the streamlined tender. > Original match plate mold for this engine now owned by Lew English / Bowser. I believe that Bowser reproduced some of these bodies for sale but had the Bowser name raised inside the roof. Copies have also appeared on Ebay without the Bowser name inside and sold as "Exact Originals". Fancy name for reproductions. > I found the body for mine being used as a paper weight with nothing inside. I bought a frame and drivers from an elderly gentleman who was a member of our HOSC&H-SIG group,since I had no extras at that time. I had a number of train collectors view my body and pictures to find out if authentic. One man who had originally bought his engine in 1938 so his is real. He felt mine original. > Many members of the HOSC&H-SIG viewed it also with some even visiting to personally see it along with my collection. There consensus is it is original. > I did have to modify it as I have an open frame motor driving it along with solid side rods. I didn't have nor could afford the V-1 motor at the time. The solid side rods was my change instead of using the 3 piece set from the pre war. > Hope no mistakes or typos. Jim > Jim, to my recollection, the original Varney ads never used the term GG-1 and I always assumed that this item was to be considered as a model of the Pennsy's sole R-1 (2-D-2 or 4-8-4) engine. The prototype of this wheel arrangement lost out to the prototype GG-1 after extensive testing and no additional units were ever built. As the GG- 1 is really an articulated unit, I'm not sure that the R-1 would necessarily negociate shorter radii. The length of the R-1 was only sixty-four feet, more than a dozen feet shorter than a true GG-1, but very close to that found in later Pennline and Varney 'GG-1's'. (I've never seen the original Varney electric, but, pictures indicate that it was a shorty, too.) I've used used a Pennline unit to kit-bash a pseudo R-1. IMHO the greatest liberty involved was that the prototype has a riveted, rather than a welded, body. I'm very interested in your opinion on this subject. Thank you. Jerry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7043	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Varney's Electric.

Attachments : Jerry,     Thank you for your comments. I have provided a picture of a Varney advertisement, Under the HO Locomotive are the words  Suggested by the Pennsylvania GG-1 . Also page 48 of the Greenberg's Varney Guide is this statement  " The  July 1938 issue of Model Railroader announced Varney's ADAPTATION of the famous GG-1 electric locomotive. This "MODEL" was shortened to take tighter radius. These are not my quotes but Varney's. I , in no way am talking about the full size GG-1 or R1.                                                                                                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7044	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1

Oddly enough........ A couple of hours ago I was looking over a recently re-found 1949 Walthers catalog. In there is a diagram and instructions for making your own pantograph........... Would a scan of that quite vintage DIY project be helpful for the vintage collectors here ??? While you might not always have the correct commercial vintage pan for a model; you can always make it just like they did in 1949. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 22, 2008, at 4:47 PM, Gerold Eckl wrote: > Jim , thanks for Famoco pictures and info. My assumption was that the > GG1 used two of the B1 drives, is this correct for version 1? > > And now the real crazy coincidence - when I looked at the pantograph > box > picture, I immidiately knew what the parts in the orphan box to my > right > are... two damged Famoco pans, two GG1 sideframes, one GG1 pilot/ end > beam assembly... got this last year with an incomplete brass loco! > Unfortunately the lower struts of the pantographs are broken... did > the > B1 use the same pans? If yes, I would try to fix them somehow... my > pair > of B1s has some brass pantographs, definitely vintage , and both > different, I think of Japanese orgin.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7045	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1

Mike                       Always helpful to me. Pantographs not always available and any replacement will do                                     Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] FAMOCO GG-1 Oddly enough...... .. A couple of hours ago I was looking over a recently re-found 1949 Walthers catalog. In there is a diagram and instructions for making your own pantograph.. ......... Would a scan of that quite vintage DIY project be helpful for the vintage collectors here ??? While you might not always have the correct commercial vintage pan for a model; you can always make it just like they did in 1949. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 22, 2008, at 4:47 PM, Gerold Eckl wrote: > Jim , thanks for Famoco pictures and info. My assumption was that the > GG1 used two of the B1 drives, is this correct for version 1? > > And now the real crazy coincidence - when I looked at the pantograph > box > picture, I immidiately knew what the parts in the orphan box to my > right > are... two damged Famoco pans, two GG1 sideframes, one GG1 pilot/ end > beam assembly... got this last year with an incomplete brass loco! > Unfortunately the lower struts of the pantographs are broken... did > the > B1 use the same pans? If yes, I would try to fix them somehow... my > pair > of B1s has some brass pantographs, definitely vintage , and both > different, I think of Japanese orgin.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7046	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: JL Models Bascule bridge kit plans

I just ran across a set of kit plans for a JL Models Bascule bridge in my files. It is the size of 4 8-1/2 x 11" sheets. And the instructions are just the basics. The modeler had to figure out a lot on his own. Dave

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7047	From: trainjerr	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: Varney's Electric.

Jim: Thank you very much for your response. I now stand corrected. That should teach me not to write without first consulting my old catalogs. In any case, best of luck on your coming visit to the doctor. Jerry --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Jerry, > Thank you for your comments. I have provided a picture of a Varney advertisement, Under the HO Locomotive are the words Suggested by the Pennsylvania GG-1 . Also page 48 of the Greenberg's Varney Guide is this statement " The July 1938 issue of Model Railroader announced Varney's ADAPTATION of the famous GG-1 electric locomotive. This "MODEL" was shortened to take tighter radius. These are not my quotes but Varney's. I , in no way am talking about the full size GG-1 or R1. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7048	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/22/2008
Subject: Re: Varney's Electric.

Jerry,                 There are just to many facts to keep in place sometimes. Believe me I have made some big mistakes more then once. The main thing is we all learn. With more people more information becomes available and updates the HO history. I'm constantly learning new things. Always available to TRY to answer the best I can. Glad I could help.            Trip to hospital is mostly time consuming . Being part of a research study they keep checking so something doesn't go wrong.                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: trainjerr To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:58 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney's Electric. Jim: Thank you very much for your response. I now stand corrected. That should teach me not to write without first consulting my old catalogs. In any case, best of luck on your coming visit to the doctor. Jerry --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Jerry, > Thank you for your comments. I have provided a picture of a Varney advertisement, Under the HO Locomotive are the words Suggested by the Pennsylvania GG-1 . Also page 48 of the Greenberg's Varney Guide is this statement " The July 1938 issue of Model Railroader announced Varney's ADAPTATION of the famous GG-1 electric locomotive. This "MODEL" was shortened to take tighter radius. These are not my quotes but Varney's. I , in no way am talking about the full size GG-1 or R1. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7049	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: DIY Pantograph

Mike , > Oddly enough........ > > A couple of hours ago I was looking over a recently re-found 1949 > Walthers catalog. > > In there is a diagram and instructions for making your own > pantograph........... > > Would a scan of that quite vintage DIY project be helpful for the > vintage collectors here ??? > Definitely. Please scan and put it in the files section so all members may check/ download it... > While you might not always have the correct commercial vintage pan for > a model; you can always make it just like they did in 1949. > There was an article telling how to build a pan from scratch in MR, by the late Bob Hegge... it has a unique approach how to do the equalizion ... Although I never built a pan by myself I have modified and repaired several of them. And, I bought a Butte, Anaconda and Pacific boxcab from Bob Fink some years ago that has a pantograph built to Bob Hegges design. Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7050	From: oljoeoh	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1

A set of plans for pantographs - THAT would be interesting indeed. Please post them. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: > > Oddly enough........ > > A couple of hours ago I was looking over a recently re-found 1949 > Walthers catalog. > > In there is a diagram and instructions for making your own > pantograph........... > > Would a scan of that quite vintage DIY project be helpful for the > vintage collectors here ??? > > While you might not always have the correct commercial vintage pan for > a model; you can always make it just like they did in 1949. > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Aug 22, 2008, at 4:47 PM, Gerold Eckl wrote: > > > Jim , thanks for Famoco pictures and info. My assumption was that the > > GG1 used two of the B1 drives, is this correct for version 1? > > > > And now the real crazy coincidence - when I looked at the pantograph > > box > > picture, I immidiately knew what the parts in the orphan box to my > > right > > are... two damged Famoco pans, two GG1 sideframes, one GG1 pilot/ end > > beam assembly... got this last year with an incomplete brass loco! > > Unfortunately the lower struts of the pantographs are broken... did > > the > > B1 use the same pans? If yes, I would try to fix them somehow... my > > pair > > of B1s has some brass pantographs, definitely vintage , and both > > different, I think of Japanese orgin. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7051	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: JL Models Bascule bridge kit plans

Dave Ayers wrote: > I just ran across a set of kit plans for a JL Models Bascule bridge in > my files. > It is the size of 4 8-1/2 x 11" sheets. And the instructions are just > the basics. The modeler had to figure out a lot on his own. > > Dave > > Dave, any chance to scan and post them ? I remember the ads for JL kits, never have seen an actual one. Didnt they offer vertical lift bridges too? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7052	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: FAMOCO B-1

Attachments : Hi Gerold,         Even though I know you have this engine I told you I would send you pictures and information about mine. This engine had been built, painted and detailed by someone else. It's an outstanding job with extra added little details. After I got it all I had to do is show it off. I'm not sure if this vintage site will take 3 pictures with this Email but I wanted to send you a copy of the plans too.                 FAMOCO B-1    One of only two engines I know made by FAMOCO in HO. This engine was made in 1947, sold for $17.50 in 1948. The Oct. 1962 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman  loco builders photo has a write up about it.         It was announced in Model Railroader Dec 1949 issue stating "All metal, DC-71 motor, operating pantographs. features also include 8 oil less bearings, stamped brass chassis, Cadmium alloy die cast front and rear pilots completely detailed, belt and worm gear drive, die cast body. Some where along the line retooling is mentioned but don't no when.          My example is missing the FAMOCO pantograph and has been replaced with a brass one. I like the nickname of the real B-1 engine, "The Rat"          Tomorrow would like to stop other electrics for now and go back to a Varney Yellowstone. This will be for Ray to see also. It is the only one I have but is unique. It has the heavy pre war Bronze boiler but has post war Super drives that utilized the Varney 12 volt V-2 to pull the weight.         Have a great day.                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7053	From: John Barlow	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: JL Models Bascule bridge kit plans

Were these in a blue box with embossed rivers on a thin, flexible cardboard-like material? I saw such a kit years ago that was displayed on a high shelf at the old Caboose Hobbies (Denver) location at 610 15th Street but it disappeared after the store moved to its present location. That was some time ago...like maybe 26 or 27 years ago. I never saw a lift bridge kit there.   John W. Barlow (jdenver4150@...)   --- On Sat, 8/23/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] JL Models Bascule bridge kit plans To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 23, 2008, 7:34 AM Dave Ayers wrote: > I just ran across a set of kit plans for a JL Models Bascule bridge in > my files. > It is the size of 4 8-1/2 x 11" sheets. And the instructions are just > the basics. The modeler had to figure out a lot on his own. > > Dave > > Dave, any chance to scan and post them ? I remember the ads for JL kits, never have seen an actual one. Didnt they offer vertical lift bridges too? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7054	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO B-1

That one would be acceptable as a "layout-grade" model today.  Anyone wanna tackle a Barr-Nixon (I think that's what it is) GG-1 in OO?   Several lumps of sand-cast bronze--the body is the general shape of the GG-1--   8^)   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 6:47 AM Subject: [vintageHO] FAMOCO B-1 Hi Gerold,         Even though I know you have this engine I told you I would send you pictures and information about mine. This engine had been built, painted and detailed by someone else. It's an outstanding job with extra added little details. After I got it all I had to do is show it off. I'm not sure if this vintage site will take 3 pictures with this Email but I wanted to send you a copy of the plans too.                 FAMOCO B-1    One of only two engines I know made by FAMOCO in HO. This engine was made in 1947, sold for $17.50 in 1948. The Oct. 1962 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman  loco builders photo has a write up about it.         It was announced in Model Railroader Dec 1949 issue stating "All metal, DC-71 motor, operating pantographs. features also include 8 oil less bearings, stamped brass chassis, Cadmium alloy die cast front and rear pilots completely detailed, belt and worm gear drive, die cast body. Some where along the line retooling is mentioned but don't no when.          My example is missing the FAMOCO pantograph and has been replaced with a brass one. I like the nickname of the real B-1 engine, "The Rat"          Tomorrow would like to stop other electrics for now and go back to a Varney Yellowstone. This will be for Ray to see also. It is the only one I have but is unique. It has the heavy pre war Bronze boiler but has post war Super drives that utilized the Varney 12 volt V-2 to pull the weight.         Have a great day.                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7055	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: DIY Pantograph

I stumbled across the article by Bob Hegge awhile ago, but not before I designed and built a set of my own. http://2guyz.info/Content/pa=showpage/pid=7.html --- On Sat, 8/23/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> Subject: [vintageHO] DIY Pantograph To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 23, 2008, 12:32 AM Mike , > Oddly enough...... .. > > A couple of hours ago I was looking over a recently re-found 1949 > Walthers catalog. > > In there is a diagram and instructions for making your own > pantograph.. ......... > > Would a scan of that quite vintage DIY project be helpful for the > vintage collectors here ??? > Definitely. Please scan and put it in the files section so all members may check/ download it... > While you might not always have the correct commercial vintage pan for > a model; you can always make it just like they did in 1949. > There was an article telling how to build a pan from scratch in MR, by the late Bob Hegge... it has a unique approach how to do the equalizion ... Although I never built a pan by myself I have modified and repaired several of them. And, I bought a Butte, Anaconda and Pacific boxcab from Bob Fink some years ago that has a pantograph built to Bob Hegges design. Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7056	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Varney Yellowstone

Attachments : Hi Gerold,               I'm going to rush things a little. Sending tomorrows pictures today. Our baby boy goes back for his Senior year of college tomorrow. Between packing and moving not sure when will get a break.             I know Ray should like these pictures as he has a number of them. I can only afford one. I was lucky to find this on Ebay. It was mislabeled and not even called Varney. It came with a  Kemtron brass centipede tender. The engine was in decent shape but painted poorly. The pictures and write up on Ebay didn't do the engine justice which actually helped me.             This is the Varney pre war bronze Yellowstone boiler. They also produced an aluminum boiler to cut down on the weight because the pre war  6 volt V-1 motor would burn up.            My engine has 2 post war Super drive mechanisms that uses the V-2  12 volt motor. 'More Power" as Tim Taylor would say on a TV show called Home Improvement. This engine came without a motor. I have the motor and geared shaft with bearings to go on it sitting here. When that will happen I don't know. The person who made this engine did a very nice job. One thing I specifically like is his design to help support the front articulated truck when picked up. He/She has steam pipes coming out from under the boiler that go in a Y shape. He/She built the front pilot different then most and created a platform that rides on top of these pipes. Since this is connected to the front truck it adds support while still allowing it to articulate and move easily.            Ray , you might like that idea. I have sold off the Kemtron Brass Centipede tender and mated the engine with a Varney pre war wood and aluminum squareback tender. This tender was unknown when Dave Spanagel wrote his book. It is slightly longer with 3 axled trucks then the 2 axled Squareback tender he describes in his book. Thanks to up dates from Dave I was able to find this tender.           Ray do you have that update and picture that shows the length and top of the tender showing the design of the aluminum sheet/piece ?           I don't intend to paint this. While I do paint some engines that were not factory painted I like to leave "odd" construction materials bare .                                                                                                                           Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7057	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1

Attachments : Here' we go............ I was being very correct in calling this a 'Vintage Pantograph'...... This is fully functional, but more of a modelers solution in 1949. I happen to think it is quite correct for vintage models. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 23, 2008, at 7:19 AM, oljoeoh wrote: > A set of plans for pantographs - THAT would be interesting > indeed. Please post them. > Joe O'Loughlin > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: >> >> Oddly enough........ >> >> A couple of hours ago I was looking over a recently re-found 1949 >> Walthers catalog. >> >> In there is a diagram and instructions for making your own >> pantograph........... >> >> Would a scan of that quite vintage DIY project be helpful for the >> vintage collectors here ??? >> >> While you might not always have the correct commercial vintage pan >> for >> a model; you can always make it just like they did in 1949. >> >> Best to ya, >> Mike Bauers >> Milwaukee, Wi >> >> On Aug 22, 2008, at 4:47 PM, Gerold Eckl wrote: >> >>> Jim , thanks for Famoco pictures and info. My assumption was that >>> the >>> GG1 used two of the B1 drives, is this correct for version 1? >>> >>> And now the real crazy coincidence - when I looked at the pantograph >>> box >>> picture, I immidiately knew what the parts in the orphan box to my >>> right >>> are... two damged Famoco pans, two GG1 sideframes, one GG1 pilot/ >>> end >>> beam assembly... got this last year with an incomplete brass loco! >>> Unfortunately the lower struts of the pantographs are broken... did >>> the >>> B1 use the same pans? If yes, I would try to fix them somehow... my >>> pair >>> of B1s has some brass pantographs, definitely vintage , and both >>> different, I think of Japanese orgin.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7058	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 8/23/2008
Subject: Empire Midland tunnel motor

H'lo All...can anyone provide info. on Empire Midland? I recently won a GN Cascade Tunnel electric advertised as an Empire Midland model. No paperwork with it, plain black box, yellow foam. It appears to be a later model than the Custom Brass model made by Kobra in Korea...it's also a Korean build, and possibly the same builder as the CBNJ version...the cabs are identical...only the drive is different...the EM has a single shaft can motor mounted over the unpowered truck, two gear towers over the driven truck. Any clues appreciated! Thanks, Russ Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7059	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone

Hi Jim,  I opened your post of yesterday afternoon to find much of interest, and naturally, am looking forward to your pic9s) of your Varney Yellowstone.  Being a Varney fan, this was always one of my favorite engines (in case you couldn't guess!).  I enjoy articulateds anyway, and I used to drool over ads in early MR mags of Bowser's Challenger but all's a 12 year old kid in 1951, such as myself, could muster up was about $15 bucks for a Dockside or Diesel Switcher.  Since Bowser continued to produce the Challenger, we know its not nearly as collectable, although the early ones had that Bowser "Super Motor."   Anyway, enough on Bowser for now, but touching on Kemtron and particularly their Centipede tender, I feel their probably the best to go with either of Bowser's articulateds, and their not too bad mated up with the Varney Yellowstone either.  I have 7 or 8 of them (6 still as kits), but like any other brass kit it helped immensely if you knew how to handle a soldering gun.  I've been toying with the idea of using a couple of my extra Yellowstone boilers to make a couple of 2-6-6-4's as per Varney's suggestion since I have a number of unused V-2's anyway and thought of using these tenders with them. Looks like you really lucked out when getting your Yellowstone on eBay, with it being mislabeled.  Every so often (but not often enough) you come across something real interesting that the owner has no idea of what it is.  Occasionally though, you'll get another prospective bidder cluing him in on what it is, and "spilling the beans" (lol).  But there are times when such an eBay ad doesn't even trigger these bidders' "Favorite Search" mechanism since there's nothing in the heading that would do so.  You have to be real lucky to come across these items, but when you do you can strike gold. I like the idea of the front steam pipes supporting the front engine.  I built a couple of my Yellowstones using the plans in the May, June & July MR's, but added a centering/supporting spring from the front of the boiler to the forward part of the front engine.  You still need to hand-support the engine to lift it, but the spring definitely helps the limit of travel that the front engine could drop to -- you can't install too-strong a spring or it won't allow (will derail) the front engine to negotiate anything less than 36" radius curves. On your "pre-War Brass Yellowstone Boiler," do you have anything to indicate that it is such (pre-War)?  As far as I know, and from what Dave Spangel appears to say in his Greenberg Varney Guide (page 49), the (all) pre-War Yellowstone Boilers were cast of aluminum only, because of the very problem you pointed out -- that the V-1 motor couldn't handle anything heavier.  If you have something that adds to this, that may indicate Varney did have these boilers cast also in bronze before the War, I'd be very interested in learning of it.  Dave states for the pre-War Yellowstone Articulated (as was proof-read by many other respected collectors), "Because the V-1 motor was limited in the weight it could move, a lightweight aluminum boiler casting was used instead of the heavier bronze." On the updated pre-War Squareback Tender, I'm sorry to say I have no literature on that, I only wish I could help you further on that.  But since we're also on the subject of Varney's tender, I thought I'd go back to the Varney Vanderbilt tenders for a moment, both the aluminum Vandy and the brass version.  As you're probably aware, these were cast for Varney by Adams & Son Foundry (Wichita, Kansas), the same outfit that cast the Yellowstone boilers for Varney (the brass Yellowstone boilers apparently were also offered directly from Adams as of June 1948).  What I'm leading up to is that Harry Garrett (which you mentioned early on) produced this IDENTICAL Vanderbilt tender; I have a mint Harry Garrett Vandy kit in box (with all paperwork included), but then with your mention of Harry Garrett you may have one also, I don't know.  If you only saw this tender out of the box (by itself), you couldn't tell it apart from a Varney tender.  I don't know Garrett's complete history, but this would seem to point out that Adams & Son Foundry also sold at least these tender castings to Garrett, and did not sell exclusively to Varney.  Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7060	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone

Hi Ray,              Enjoyed your responses to my Yellowstone. I did send 2 pictures and hope you got them. I first want to answer one of your questions that "worries" me. Concerning Bronze pre war Yellowstone boiler. Do I have proof ?  I can't put my finger on the exchanged information about how I came to this conclusion. I know there was discussion between some people and the "story" I concluded was this.  First Varney Yellowstone boiler was Bronze or Brass, mixture unknown to me . When first mated with the Varney pre war mechanisms that had the V-1 motor the weight was to great and burned up the Varney 6 volt motors. The aluminum casting (A&S) was then used to lighten the load the V-1 could carry.  After the war with the advent of the Super mechanisms and the 12 volt V-2 motor Varney again supplied Bronze/Brass (not sure of exact make up) boilers because the weight could be handled. Again everything I know you state about A&S casting being involved. More of which will follow. Can I produce a Varney ad to this effect ? NO   Can I back my Yellowstone story up ? Only by shall we say letters and "from word of mouth". Did this bronze pre war boiler only take place at the Varney factory where the problem of the V-1 burning out showed up ? Did Varney and Mr. Lindsay , who designed the Varney motors, after the war develop the 12 volt motors to overcome the weight problem thereby going "back" to producing the heavy Bronze/Brass boiler ? I will find letters, well buried, concerning these discussions and retrieve names of people involved in these discussions. I know one of the men has passed.  So I guess the best way to answer your question right now is NO but the final chapter may not have been written.                 You were like me drooling over large engines I didn't think I would ever have. I own one Bowser / Redlands CA 4-6-6-4 Challenger with a different motor then currently in Bowser/Lew English engine. You have to tell me about why called "Super Motor". I don't know.                I would love to find a Varney 2-6-6-4 engine. Don't have time or parts to make my own. Will just have to watch. I sold that Kemtron Centipede tender as it doesn't fit into what I'm collecting.               Very lucky to find my Varney Yellowstone the way I did. it is getting extremely harder to get mislabeled items off Ebay. sellers are becoming more knowledgeable. still Ebay is more useful then the old way of picking through items at train shows and getting list sent (although you knew what you would be paying.                I'm going to send this first part of my reply before something wrong happens. Second part to follow. Have to help son pack his car for college. well getting called. I have read this twice and hope for no mistakes.                                                                             Regards        Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Yellowstone Hi Jim,  I opened your post of yesterday afternoon to find much of interest, and naturally, am looking forward to your pic9s) of your Varney Yellowstone.  Being a Varney fan, this was always one of my favorite engines (in case you couldn't guess!).  I enjoy articulateds anyway, and I used to drool over ads in early MR mags of Bowser's Challenger but all's a 12 year old kid in 1951, such as myself, could muster up was about $15 bucks for a Dockside or Diesel Switcher.  Since Bowser continued to produce the Challenger, we know its not nearly as collectable, although the early ones had that Bowser "Super Motor."   Anyway, enough on Bowser for now, but touching on Kemtron and particularly their Centipede tender, I feel their probably the best to go with either of Bowser's articulateds, and their not too bad mated up with the Varney Yellowstone either.  I have 7 or 8 of them (6 still as kits), but like any other brass kit it helped immensely if you knew how to handle a soldering gun.  I've been toying with the idea of using a couple of my extra Yellowstone boilers to make a couple of 2-6-6-4's as per Varney's suggestion since I have a number of unused V-2's anyway and thought of using these tenders with them. Looks like you really lucked out when getting your Yellowstone on eBay, with it being mislabeled.  Every so often (but not often enough) you come across something real interesting that the owner has no idea of what it is.  Occasionally though, you'll get another prospective bidder cluing him in on what it is, and "spilling the beans" (lol).  But there are times when such an eBay ad doesn't even trigger these bidders' "Favorite Search" mechanism since there's nothing in the heading that would do so.  You have to be real lucky to come across these items, but when you do you can strike gold. I like the idea of the front steam pipes supporting the front engine.  I built a couple of my Yellowstones using the plans in the May, June & July MR's, but added a centering/supportin g spring from the front of the boiler to the forward part of the front engine.  You still need to hand-support the engine to lift it, but the spring definitely helps the limit of travel that the front engine could drop to -- you can't install too-strong a spring or it won't allow (will derail) the front engine to negotiate anything less than 36" radius curves. On your "pre-War Brass Yellowstone Boiler," do you have anything to indicate that it is such (pre-War)?  As far as I know, and from what Dave Spangel appears to say in his Greenberg Varney Guide (page 49), the (all) pre-War Yellowstone Boilers were cast of aluminum only, because of the very problem you pointed out -- that the V-1 motor couldn't handle anything heavier.  If you have something that adds to this, that may indicate Varney did have these boilers cast also in bronze before the War, I'd be very interested in learning of it.  Dave states for the pre-War Yellowstone Articulated (as was proof-read by many other respected collectors), "Because the V-1 motor was limited in the weight it could move, a lightweight aluminum boiler casting was used instead of the heavier bronze." On the updated pre-War Squareback Tender, I'm sorry to say I have no literature on that, I only wish I could help you further on that.  But since we're also on the subject of Varney's tender, I thought I'd go back to the Varney Vanderbilt tenders for a moment, both the aluminum Vandy and the brass version.  As you're probably aware, these were cast for Varney by Adams & Son Foundry (Wichita, Kansas), the same outfit that cast the Yellowstone boilers for Varney (the brass Yellowstone boilers apparently were also offered directly from Adams as of June 1948).  What I'm leading up to is that Harry Garrett (which you mentioned early on) produced this IDENTICAL Vanderbilt tender; I have a mint Harry Garrett Vandy kit in box (with all paperwork included), but then with your mention of Harry Garrett you may have one also, I don't know.  If you only saw this tender out of the box (by itself), you couldn't tell it apart from a Varney tender.  I don't kn ow Garrett's complete history, but this would seem to point out that Adams & Son Foundry also sold at least these tender castings to Garrett, and did not sell exclusively to Varney.  Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7061	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone

Hi Ray,                 Back to try to finish this. Cars loaded for the 45 minute trip to Lebanon Valley College in Annville Pa. Have to follow him with our SUV to carry refrigerator, computer, etc.           Would like to add one final statement on the Varney Yellowstone. Since all the Varney pre war boilers were of that bronze/brass material, why not first Yellowstone ?              Will send you a copy of the sheet that Dave Spanagel sent me about the larger squareback tender. It is very light and I will have to have my wife reproduce at work since I have no way to darken it on my copy machine. I will try to get pictures of the tender I have. Since it has the embossed aluminum pieces over the wood it might not come out to good. Not the best with the camera. The one thing that might help is it was already painted but needs to be redone but since wood involved makes that harder to clean up. This might not be till Tuesday. Dave Spanagel has numbered this tender and the shorter version A&B types with his number. Be glad to pass it on.          It seems like Adams and Son did a lot of the early casting for vintage HO trains. Along with Varney and GARCO (H J Garrett) the parts that became DMC (Dallas Model Craft) E units were also made by A&S.  I have GARCO diesel engines in boxes. The plans for those engines also carry sheets about the tender you mention that Varney used. I don't have the GARCO/ A&S tender.These assembly sheets also have the parts for sale under the GARCO name that would be used on the Dallas Model Craft E units.   This poses an interesting thought on the relationship of Adams and Son, GARCO (HJ Garret) and DMC (Dallas Model Craft). But that's to learn and for later.           Final thing. Wasn't the Varney Vanderbilt brass tender also cast by A&S and sold by Varney?  Well I must leave and hope this is typed right. Great discussing HO history with you and any others. Time to leave                                                                                            Later                            Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Yellowstone Hi Jim,  I opened your post of yesterday afternoon to find much of interest, and naturally, am looking forward to your pic9s) of your Varney Yellowstone.  Being a Varney fan, this was always one of my favorite engines (in case you couldn't guess!).  I enjoy articulateds anyway, and I used to drool over ads in early MR mags of Bowser's Challenger but all's a 12 year old kid in 1951, such as myself, could muster up was about $15 bucks for a Dockside or Diesel Switcher.  Since Bowser continued to produce the Challenger, we know its not nearly as collectable, although the early ones had that Bowser "Super Motor."   Anyway, enough on Bowser for now, but touching on Kemtron and particularly their Centipede tender, I feel their probably the best to go with either of Bowser's articulateds, and their not too bad mated up with the Varney Yellowstone either.  I have 7 or 8 of them (6 still as kits), but like any other brass kit it helped immensely if you knew how to handle a soldering gun.  I've been toying with the idea of using a couple of my extra Yellowstone boilers to make a couple of 2-6-6-4's as per Varney's suggestion since I have a number of unused V-2's anyway and thought of using these tenders with them. Looks like you really lucked out when getting your Yellowstone on eBay, with it being mislabeled.  Every so often (but not often enough) you come across something real interesting that the owner has no idea of what it is.  Occasionally though, you'll get another prospective bidder cluing him in on what it is, and "spilling the beans" (lol).  But there are times when such an eBay ad doesn't even trigger these bidders' "Favorite Search" mechanism since there's nothing in the heading that would do so.  You have to be real lucky to come across these items, but when you do you can strike gold. I like the idea of the front steam pipes supporting the front engine.  I built a couple of my Yellowstones using the plans in the May, June & July MR's, but added a centering/supportin g spring from the front of the boiler to the forward part of the front engine.  You still need to hand-support the engine to lift it, but the spring definitely helps the limit of travel that the front engine could drop to -- you can't install too-strong a spring or it won't allow (will derail) the front engine to negotiate anything less than 36" radius curves. On your "pre-War Brass Yellowstone Boiler," do you have anything to indicate that it is such (pre-War)?  As far as I know, and from what Dave Spangel appears to say in his Greenberg Varney Guide (page 49), the (all) pre-War Yellowstone Boilers were cast of aluminum only, because of the very problem you pointed out -- that the V-1 motor couldn't handle anything heavier.  If you have something that adds to this, that may indicate Varney did have these boilers cast also in bronze before the War, I'd be very interested in learning of it.  Dave states for the pre-War Yellowstone Articulated (as was proof-read by many other respected collectors), "Because the V-1 motor was limited in the weight it could move, a lightweight aluminum boiler casting was used instead of the heavier bronze." On the updated pre-War Squareback Tender, I'm sorry to say I have no literature on that, I only wish I could help you further on that.  But since we're also on the subject of Varney's tender, I thought I'd go back to the Varney Vanderbilt tenders for a moment, both the aluminum Vandy and the brass version.  As you're probably aware, these were cast for Varney by Adams & Son Foundry (Wichita, Kansas), the same outfit that cast the Yellowstone boilers for Varney (the brass Yellowstone boilers apparently were also offered directly from Adams as of June 1948).  What I'm leading up to is that Harry Garrett (which you mentioned early on) produced this IDENTICAL Vanderbilt tender; I have a mint Harry Garrett Vandy kit in box (with all paperwork included), but then with your mention of Harry Garrett you may have one also, I don't know.  If you only saw this tender out of the box (by itself), you couldn't tell it apart from a Varney tender.  I don't kn ow Garrett's complete history, but this would seem to point out that Adams & Son Foundry also sold at least these tender castings to Garrett, and did not sell exclusively to Varney.  Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7062	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: penn Line eyewitness

Hi Ray,            Back from the mini trip getting my son is moved in for Senior year of college. Hope you get time to study my Varney remarks and other things. Have copied and will send information from D Spanagel about that longer pre war wood and aluminum tender.            I want to pass along some Penn Line information which you can read if you have copies of "The Reporting Mark" issues I will talk about. These will add to eye witness reports I told you Bill Morrison of Boyertown observed about Penn Line .         The first article is in Volume 13 number 2 April 1995.         It is a copy of a letter printed in a Boyertown newspaper "The Mercury" on Dec 3 1993. called "Looking back at the railroad years".It talks about K. Linwood Stauffer reminiscing about Penn Line. While this article seems to be first hand as opposed too the article written by a relation of the Sand's store I just want to point out one fact I talked to you about. That concerns the mold for making the first run of the PL Whitcomb engine that Bill Morrison was shown before first casting made. "They went to work in Mercer's home at 317 S. Reading Avenue. There were problems from the beginning. A key part of each model train is the metal casting that gives weight to the engine's body. THE NEW RAILROAD BUILDERS MADE THESE CASTINGS BY POURING LEAD INTO MOLDS ONE AT A TIME. It's a messy business." They must have had single molds for other engines too.            The second story as told by Bill Morrison will show you the closeness he had to the original owners. It appears in volume 15  Number 1 Oct 1996. The key sentences are concerning the GG-1 mold and it's weight of over 1,000 pounds which Bill saw. The next statement shows how close he was to the owners. " He (Bill Morrison) was presented with the first set box of 1956 with the GG-1 and the Hind and Dauch trailer carrying flatcar. He still owns that along with other memorabilia.           I'm just pointing out why I believe his "eye witness" report of stories he relates about Penn Line.                                                                                                                          Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7063	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/24/2008
Subject: Pittman "Bride and Groom"

Attachments : Hi Gerold ,         Just got back and you might be in bed when this arrives. I'm following up with an electric that I will define as middle of the road in that hard to find,not well know but not very expensive when found. Most of the information comes from the assembly sheet and boxed model I own.          A couple of facts I didn't know come from a Mr. Roy E Brakmann concerning Pittman. First he had only known of Pittman's venture into traction models in O scale. This so the first HO item from Pittman and probably the only one. I have to agree as I have not heard or seen others.         The name Pittman was most known for motors for model trains. This set represents  a set of MU's made to be SIMLIAR to MP-54 interurban cars of the Reading and Pennsylvania railroads.        The cars (Combine and Coach) are plastic passenger cars made by HObbyline (John English's name for plastic items copied after his metal standard cars) modified to look like MU's. Only the Combine is powered. The Coach is a dummy. Pantograph included in kit. Just an oddity in HO.                                                                                                                                        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7064	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness

Hi Jim,  I did have a chance to read, with interest, your remarks on Varney and stuff in your last post.  Thought I'd get back to you on this message first, only since it happened to be the first one i re-opened and have a chance to comment on.  Looking forward to what J.D. Spanagel had to say about that tender too. I'm unfortunately missing some issues of my "The Reporting Mark" bulletins, so I can't follow you with your quotes from those issues.  On a related note, I've been thinking lately if it would be worthwhile for me to contact Dave in hopes he can send me replacements for those I'm missing, with my payment for them if he has them available, but I'm hesitant to while fearing he may no longer have them around.  I guess there's only one way to find out. I found your quotes concerning Penn Line quite interesting.  The original owners  of Penn Line must have been real dedicated, with casting each piece one at a time.  That has to show they must have been H0 modelers at heart, and did this with a labor of love even while they were trying to start up a business and make some money at it. For them to dedicate the first boxed GG-1 set to Bill Morrison and give that to him shows they must have had great respect for the guy.  Bill must have really felt honored.  Later . . . Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7065	From: oljoe@landolls.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness

Hello Jim.... Are you aware of the Penn Line history CD? I have communicated with Frank Dill about this item. I contains a history of Penn Line as well as info about the items made by Penn Line. Joe O'Loughlin Jim Heckard wrote: > > > Hi Ray, > Back from the mini trip getting my son is moved in for Senior > year of college. Hope you get time to study my Varney remarks and other > things. Have copied and will send information from D Spanagel about that > longer pre war wood and aluminum tender. > I want to pass along some Penn Line information which you can > read if you have copies of "The Reporting Mark" issues I will talk > about. These will add to eye witness reports I told you Bill Morrison of > Boyertown observed about Penn Line > . The first article is in Volume 13 number 2 April 1995. > It is a copy of a letter printed in a Boyertown newspaper "The > Mercury" on Dec 3 1993. called "Looking back at the railroad years".It > talks about K. Linwood Stauffer reminiscing about Penn Line. While this > article seems to be first hand as opposed too the article written by a > relation of the Sand's store I just want to point out one fact I talked > to you about. That concerns the mold for making the first run of the PL > Whitcomb engine that Bill Morrison was shown before first casting made. > "They went to work in Mercer's home at 317 S. Reading Avenue. There were > problems from the beginning. A key part of each model train is the metal > casting that gives weight to the engine's body. THE NEW RAILROAD > BUILDERS MADE THESE CASTINGS BY POURING LEAD INTO MOLDS ONE AT A TIME. > It's a messy business." They must have had single molds for other > engines too. > The second story as told by Bill Morrison will show you the > closeness he had to the original owners. It appears in volume 15 Number > 1 Oct 1996. The key sentences are concerning the GG-1 mold and it's > weight of over 1,000 pounds which Bill saw. The next statement shows how > close he was to the owners. " He (Bill Morrison) was presented with the > first set box of 1956 with the GG-1 and the Hind and Dauch trailer > carrying flatcar. He still owns that along with other memorabilia. > I'm just pointing out why I believe his "eye witness" report > of stories he relates about Penn Line. > > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7066	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness

Hi Ray,          Looking forward to your comments about Varney Yellowstone. As for Bill Morrison I mention it because , in some instances, things were seen differently then others. I have no doubt each person's accounts concerning Penn Line differ somewhat but each has vital clues as to what the real story is. No I'm not claiming what's known is wrong.      Just like my Varney comments to you I had heard some things a little different. I totally respect anyone trying to write HO history. It's very hard to verify somethings . What was the best available information sometimes changes. I had different "teachers" about what I "think" I know. Along with Dave,you and your group of collectors worked with available information and did a great job.        I do not have every issue of the newsletter Dave put out. I am a Johnny come lately joining around 1990. Even though in HO since 1958. I didn't know the group even existed. I think Dave remarked in the last issue that he had been doing it for 24 years. I'm pretty sure he would still make copies for former members.  I , myself, would like to get an index of the stories so I don't have to keep searching to find what I need. Sometimes the information is spread over different issues..        If you need  I can copy and send the articles I mentioned. That newspaper article really tells some neat things, like how the neighbors got mad because the PL owners were working in a private home. To heat the lead on a coal stove and use linseed oil in the molds to try to stop impurities  but didn't make neighbors happy with the smoke. And since Mr. Stauffer related the story it has to be first hand.          I have the information about that Varney tender ready plus will take pictures of one I have.  Hopefully tomorrow.                                                                                                                                        Jim  ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] penn Line eyewitness Hi Jim,  I did have a chance to read, with interest, your remarks on Varney and stuff in your last post.  Thought I'd get back to you on this message first, only since it happened to be the first one i re-opened and have a chance to comment on.  Looking forward to what J.D. Spanagel had to say about that tender too. I'm unfortunately missing some issues of my "The Reporting Mark" bulletins, so I can't follow you with your quotes from those issues.  On a related note, I've been thinking lately if it would be worthwhile for me to contact Dave in hopes he can send me replacements for those I'm missing, with my payment for them if he has them available, but I'm hesitant to while fearing he may no longer have them around.  I guess there's only one way to find out. I found your quotes concerning Penn Line quite interesting.  The original owners  of Penn Line must have been real dedicated, with casting each piece one at a time.  That has to show they must have been H0 modelers at heart, and did this with a labor of love even while they were trying to start up a business and make some money at it. For them to dedicate the first boxed GG-1 set to Bill Morrison and give that to him shows they must have had great respect for the guy.  Bill must have really felt honored.  Later . . . Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7067	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness

Hi Joe,              I have heard of this CD but don't have it. I'm sure it contains some very interesting facts. Thanks for the mention.                                                                                                                  Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: oljoe@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] penn Line eyewitness Hello Jim.... Are you aware of the Penn Line history CD? I have communicated with Frank Dill about this item. I contains a history of Penn Line as well as info about the items made by Penn Line. Joe O'Loughlin Jim Heckard wrote: > > > Hi Ray, > Back from the mini trip getting my son is moved in for Senior > year of college. Hope you get time to study my Varney remarks and other > things. Have copied and will send information from D Spanagel about that > longer pre war wood and aluminum tender. > I want to pass along some Penn Line information which you can > read if you have copies of "The Reporting Mark" issues I will talk > about. These will add to eye witness reports I told you Bill Morrison of > Boyertown observed about Penn Line > . The first article is in Volume 13 number 2 April 1995. > It is a copy of a letter printed in a Boyertown newspaper "The > Mercury" on Dec 3 1993. called "Looking back at the railroad years".It > talks about K. Linwood Stauffer reminiscing about Penn Line. While this > article seems to be first hand as opposed too the article written by a > relation of the Sand's store I just want to point out one fact I talked > to you about. That concerns the mold for making the first run of the PL > Whitcomb engine that Bill Morrison was shown before first casting made. > "They went to work in Mercer's home at 317 S. Reading Avenue. There were > problems from the beginning. A key part of each model train is the metal > casting that gives weight to the engine's body. THE NEW RAILROAD > BUILDERS MADE THESE CASTINGS BY POURING LEAD INTO MOLDS ONE AT A TIME. > It's a messy business." They must have had single molds for other > engines too. > The second story as told by Bill Morrison will show you the > closeness he had to the original owners. It appears in volume 15 Number > 1 Oct 1996. The key sentences are concerning the GG-1 mold and it's > weight of over 1,000 pounds which Bill saw. The next statement shows how > close he was to the owners. " He (Bill Morrison) was presented with the > first set box of 1956 with the GG-1 and the Hind and Dauch trailer > carrying flatcar. He still owns that along with other memorabilia. > I'm just pointing out why I believe his "eye witness" report > of stories he relates about Penn Line. > > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7068	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness

Just a comment on the molds for the Penn Line locos -- back in 1984 I was in Montoursville, PA for some engineering work on a local papermill and happened to find the hobbyshop/manufacturing business that was Bowser. I was given a tour of the manufacturing end and was shown the original molds for the Penn Line locos -- they were all gravity-cast single pour molds (you poured molten lead into a long funnel and the weight of the molten lead-alloy in the top cavity forced the lead into all the parts of the mold, giving them the crisp detail for rivets, etc. The original molds were still in operation, although they had been reworked a couple of times. I asked about the Whitcomb and they showed me what was left of the molds. It had been designed for use with printer's typemetal for the maximum weight, but when it was re- designed for the new geared mechanism, the mold was redone for the lead-zinc alloy they were using for the other locos in the line. Eventually the old Whitcomb mold just wore out. They were thinking of reworking it back then (24 years ago) but I suspect it was just too much work for very little reward. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > Back from the mini trip getting my son is moved in for Senior year of college. Hope you get time to study my Varney remarks and other things. Have copied and will send information from D Spanagel about that longer pre war wood and aluminum tender. > I want to pass along some Penn Line information which you can read if you have copies of "The Reporting Mark" issues I will talk about. These will add to eye witness reports I told you Bill Morrison of Boyertown observed about Penn Line > . The first article is in Volume 13 number 2 April 1995. > It is a copy of a letter printed in a Boyertown newspaper "The Mercury" on Dec 3 1993. called "Looking back at the railroad years".It talks about K. Linwood Stauffer reminiscing about Penn Line. While this article seems to be first hand as opposed too the article written by a relation of the Sand's store I just want to point out one fact I talked to you about. That concerns the mold for making the first run of the PL Whitcomb engine that Bill Morrison was shown before first casting made. "They went to work in Mercer's home at 317 S. Reading Avenue. There were problems from the beginning. A key part of each model train is the metal casting that gives weight to the engine's body. THE NEW RAILROAD BUILDERS MADE THESE CASTINGS BY POURING LEAD INTO MOLDS ONE AT A TIME. It's a messy business." They must have had single molds for other engines too. > The second story as told by Bill Morrison will show you the closeness he had to the original owners. It appears in volume 15 Number 1 Oct 1996. The key sentences are concerning the GG-1 mold and it's weight of over 1,000 pounds which Bill saw. The next statement shows how close he was to the owners. " He (Bill Morrison) was presented with the first set box of 1956 with the GG-1 and the Hind and Dauch trailer carrying flatcar. He still owns that along with other memorabilia. > I'm just pointing out why I believe his "eye witness" report of stories he relates about Penn Line. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7069	From: oljoe@landolls.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness

I have correspondence from Frank Dill stating that it is ok for me to copy this CD. I can forward his email stating this if you are interested. according to Frank Dill the content of the CD is in the public domain. I would be happy to copy and mail for the cost of mailing only. Joe O'Loughlin Jim Heckard wrote: > > > Hi Joe, > I have heard of this CD but don't have it. I'm sure it > contains some very interesting facts. Thanks for the mention. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: oljoe@... <mailto:oljoe@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 7:27 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] penn Line eyewitness > > Hello Jim.... > Are you aware of the Penn Line history CD? > I have communicated with Frank Dill about this > item. I contains a history of Penn Line as well > as info about the items made by Penn Line. > Joe O'Loughlin > > Jim Heckard wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > Back from the mini trip getting my son is moved in for Senior > > year of college. Hope you get time to study my Varney remarks and > other > > things. Have copied and will send information from D Spanagel > about that > > longer pre war wood and aluminum tender. > > I want to pass along some Penn Line information which you can > > read if you have copies of "The Reporting Mark" issues I will talk > > about. These will add to eye witness reports I told you Bill > Morrison of > > Boyertown observed about Penn Line > > . The first article is in Volume 13 number 2 April 1995. > > It is a copy of a letter printed in a Boyertown newspaper "The > > Mercury" on Dec 3 1993. called "Looking back at the railroad > years".It > > talks about K. Linwood Stauffer reminiscing about Penn Line. > While this > > article seems to be first hand as opposed too the article written > by a > > relation of the Sand's store I just want to point out one fact I > talked > > to you about. That concerns the mold for making the first run of > the PL > > Whitcomb engine that Bill Morrison was shown before first casting > made. > > "They went to work in Mercer's home at 317 S. Reading Avenue. > There were > > problems from the beginning. A key part of each model train is > the metal > > casting that gives weight to the engine's body. THE NEW RAILROAD > > BUILDERS MADE THESE CASTINGS BY POURING LEAD INTO MOLDS ONE AT A > TIME. > > It's a messy business." They must have had single molds for other > > engines too. > > The second story as told by Bill Morrison will show you the > > closeness he had to the original owners. It appears in volume 15 > Number > > 1 Oct 1996. The key sentences are concerning the GG-1 mold and it's > > weight of over 1,000 pounds which Bill saw. The next statement > shows how > > close he was to the owners. " He (Bill Morrison) was presented > with the > > first set box of 1956 with the GG-1 and the Hind and Dauch trailer > > carrying flatcar. He still owns that along with other memorabilia. > > I'm just pointing out why I believe his "eye witness" report > > of stories he relates about Penn Line. > > > > Jim > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7070	From: rcjge	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Wow, NIB Varney GG1! OK, it's likely a Penn Line?

Hi Guys: http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-SCALE-VARNEY-GG1-NEVER-OPENED-OR-REMOVED-FROM-BOX_W0QQitemZ310078009159QQihZ021QQcategoryZ38278QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem [310078009159] Isn't it amazing what a box does to a model train. $38.98 for a Varney GG1! and thats a BIN price! ;-) I was gonna message this guy and say whoa, then I thought there's guys here who are better qualified to tell him what he's got... Now if that is a PL GG1 thats a pretty good deal, and if I didn't already have one I'd snag it. Too bad it's not in GN or NH! Btw, if anyone has a PL GG1 in NH or GN that they want to part with please let me know!? Thanks, Gareth

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7071	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness

Jim,   Have you seen his web page?? Do an internet search for "Penn Line History" and you will find it... It is a well thought out page..   I especially liked the Mini Diesel Whitcomb pictures.. ..especially the small desk-top layout photos with the whitcomb.. I am still looking for one of the rare desktop layouts as pictured in the photos.. My bet is that they stayed in the family as they were very rare and given to only special people..    I have emailed Frank on occasion.. he is a nice gent.. I found it odd that he did not recognize my "Green Weenie" as being the earlier version of the D2 Whitcomb. I kind-of remember that he was not aware of there being an earlier version of the D2.. I found that kind of odd.. Really odd after I purchased the earlier version with the box and instructions which clearly show the earlier version in the picture on the isctructions.. If my memory is correct though.. It is not called the Whitcomb on the instructions, rather  it is called the "Mini Diesel" ...   Sean --- On Mon, 8/25/08, oljoe@... <oljoe@...> wrote: From: oljoe@... <oljoe@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] penn Line eyewitness To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 9:45 AM I have correspondence from Frank Dill stating that it is ok for me to copy this CD. I can forward his email stating this if you are interested. according to Frank Dill the content of the CD is in the public domain. I would be happy to copy and mail for the cost of mailing only. Joe O'Loughlin Jim Heckard wrote: > > > Hi Joe, > I have heard of this CD but don't have it. I'm sure it > contains some very interesting facts. Thanks for the mention. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: oljoe@landolls. com <mailto:oljoe@landolls. com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 7:27 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] penn Line eyewitness > > Hello Jim.... > Are you aware of the Penn Line history CD? > I have communicated with Frank Dill about this > item. I contains a history of Penn Line as well > as info about the items made by Penn Line. > Joe O'Loughlin > > Jim Heckard wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray, > > Back from the mini trip getting my son is moved in for Senior > > year of college. Hope you get time to study my Varney remarks and > other > > things. Have copied and will send information from D Spanagel > about that > > longer pre war wood and aluminum tender. > > I want to pass along some Penn Line information which you can > > read if you have copies of "The Reporting Mark" issues I will talk > > about. These will add to eye witness reports I told you Bill > Morrison of > > Boyertown observed about Penn Line > > . The first article is in Volume 13 number 2 April 1995. > > It is a copy of a letter printed in a Boyertown newspaper "The > > Mercury" on Dec 3 1993. called "Looking back at the railroad > years".It > > talks about K. Linwood Stauffer reminiscing about Penn Line. > While this > > article seems to be first hand as opposed too the article written > by a > > relation of the Sand's store I just want to point out one fact I > talked > > to you about. That concerns the mold for making the first run of > the PL > > Whitcomb engine that Bill Morrison was shown before first casting > made. > > "They went to work in Mercer's home at 317 S. Reading Avenue. > There were > > problems from the beginning. A key part of each model train is > the metal > > casting that gives weight to the engine's body. THE NEW RAILROAD > > BUILDERS MADE THESE CASTINGS BY POURING LEAD INTO MOLDS ONE AT A > TIME. > > It's a messy business." They must have had single molds for other > > engines too. > > The second story as told by Bill Morrison will show you the > > closeness he had to the original owners. It appears in volume 15 > Number > > 1 Oct 1996. The key sentences are concerning the GG-1 mold and it's > > weight of over 1,000 pounds which Bill saw. The next statement > shows how > > close he was to the owners. " He (Bill Morrison) was presented > with the > > first set box of 1956 with the GG-1 and the Hind and Dauch trailer > > carrying flatcar. He still owns that along with other memorabilia. > > I'm just pointing out why I believe his "eye witness" report > > of stories he relates about Penn Line. > > > > Jim > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7072	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Newly Found Varney tender

Attachments : Hi Ray,               This is the information I promised to you or anyone else interested. The pictures above should give you an idea of the size compared to the No. 763 Squareback tender page 60 in Greenberg's Varney Guide by Dave Spanagel to this.        First I don't know anything about the 3 axle trucks on this larger tender. They came with it. I can't tell you who made or could they be Varney other then 3 axle trucks called for.         Now on to the tender. Construction materials are the same as other Varney pre war tenders made of wood, card stock and embossed aluminum. The smaller tender in the Varney book is roughly 5" long, this tender is 6 3/8". One picture sent will show the difference. On the paperwork sent to me by Dave Spanagel he has scaled the short tender listed as 32' 6" and the larger as 42' 6". The notations are Dave's. There is one saying kit cost $25 (seems steep)and another note saying " Not in Varney book".        I will be mailing out a copy of what was sent to me. If more pictures of different views needed I will send them too. If you contact me at jimheck@...   you can provide your address if you don't want to do over the vintageHO site.  I will mail you a copy of this paper along with copies of the 2 Penn Line items I mentioned from "The Reporting Mark".        When you get the paper I think you will see a slight mistake Dave made numbering. I think he meant to label these similar tenders 763 A & B. In one place he wrote 764 which was the brass stock soldered together Long Distance Coal Tender Kit. A minor thing but you will see on the paperwork.                                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7073	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone

Hi Jim,  First, I'd just want you to knoiw I'm not trying to put you on the spot, to prove your Varney bronze/brass Yellowstone is pre-War, or trying to disprove you on that.  I have no proof that it isn't a pre-War model, and am not meaning to discredit you -- nor am I saying I'm right.  In my thinking though, I would take the stance you pointed out as one of the possibilities on this -- that IF there was ever a pre-War Yellowstone boiler made by Varney, it most likely was found early (in the factory) that it was too heavy for the V-1 motor and therefore was never released as a production model -- but I have to say that I tend to doubt there was one in the first place from all I've read. On to the Bowser Super motors.  Really hard to explain what these look like, and unlike you, I have no help to show me how to post pics or attachments or anything else like that.  I just don't have the first inkling of how to go about that kind of stuff on these computers.  So, the best way I can describe it is to say that the General Electric Alnico V magnets (same manufacturer for Varney's V-1 Alnico magnets, but different style) are positioned along side the armature, one large one on each side, with the inside face of them concave to accept the armature within them.  These magnet blocks could then be much larger than Pittman's DC-71 (for instance) -- that motor having a one vertical magnet in the rear of the motor with two formed pieces of steel extending forward from it, over the armature.  Once seen, these Bowser Super Motors are unmistakeable as the side of each magnet half is beveled on its outside edge tapering up towards the top.  There are three similar Super Motors used by Bowser, the earliest one having a very large one-piece semi-circle shaped magnet shrouding over the top of the armature from one side to the other.  Each model motor was a different size (in height), with the one used in the Challenger being the largest. As per the Bowser Reference Manual and Catalog (Redlands, California), these three Super Motors were -- # 506-A, # 506-B and # 606-A, used on the only three engines that Bill Bowser and Don Acheson produced at that time.  The # 506-A Super Motor was used with the brass M-1 Mountain that they bought from Knapp.  This motor is the one having the semi-circular magnet over the top.  It was later changed to the # 506-B in this engine. The # 506-B Super Motor was used primarily with the NYC K-11 Pacific, and the Challenger used the # 606-A.  Each motor was the same length (1.750") and same width (1.000"), but while the # 506-B was .750" high (center of armature shaft to top of magnets), the # 606-A was .937" for the same dimension (center of armature shaft to top of magnets).  Over-all height of the # 506-B was 1.062" vs. the # 606-A's over-all height of 1.250". These motors were used in these engines through the 1950's and up until the engines were finally discontinued, but were used as the replacement part for these engines into the 1970's.  The Super Motors were never used on any of the PRR style engines that Bowser produced.  During the 70's and I believe possibly for a period of at least 10 years when Bowser finally started making them again, you couldn't buy Challenger engine if your life depended on it.  I was lucky enough to buy one from George, the owner of Hobbies For Men in Beacon, NY, who at the time was one of MR's largest advertisers at the time; it was his personal engine that he built.  This was before I was able to find two new-in-box Bowser (Redlands, CA) Challengers (with the Super Motors).  Probably have close to a dozen or so of these engines, most in kit form that I've picked up during the late 80's, but only four (two built) having the Super Motor.  They became addictive after a while since the price was often right, and I have a liking for these big engines.  I just didn't know when to stop <G>. Probably have at least 6 of the brass Mountains, four of them in kits, as that was another one I used to drool over when I was a kid.  I remember first seeing it in a 1952 Kalmbach Publishing Co. booklet -- "Introduction to Scale Model Railroading," and I couldn't afford it back then as a kid, so got them while I could when I was able to get them.  Still have that booklet from '52, as its jam-packed with info (over 60 pages).   Got to cut it short while I'm still ahead.  Later, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7074	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone

Hi Ray,               I take no offense because someone thinks different then me. Emails don't carry the feeling in the message. All I care about is if I can learn great. I'm going out for supper now  and want to read your message thoroughly when I get back and let the facts sink in this thick head.             I have a quick question for you . All the Varney pre war boilers (same one for Pacific and Mike ,different for Consy) were made of a bronze material. And I think I read Adams & Son didn't start casting till 1940 (If I'm wrong on that correct me). Who cast the bronze like boilers for Varney before that,  roughly 1937-1939 ??             I know now what Bowser / Redlands California  motors you are talking about. I just never heard them called SUPER MOTORS. I always heard them talked about as being  with those large Alinco magnets. Forget exactly how they said it.                                                                                                                Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Yellowstone Hi Jim,  First, I'd just want you to knoiw I'm not trying to put you on the spot, to prove your Varney bronze/brass Yellowstone is pre-War, or trying to disprove you on that.  I have no proof that it isn't a pre-War model, and am not meaning to discredit you -- nor am I saying I'm right.  In my thinking though, I would take the stance you pointed out as one of the possibilities on this -- that IF there was ever a pre-War Yellowstone boiler made by Varney, it most likely was found early (in the factory) that it was too heavy for the V-1 motor and therefore was never released as a production model -- but I have to say that I tend to doubt there was one in the first place from all I've read. On to the Bowser Super motors.  Really hard to explain what these look like, and unlike you, I have no help to show me how to post pics or attachments or anything else like that.  I just don't have the first inkling of how to go about that kind of stuff on these computers.  So, the best way I can describe it is to say that the General Electric Alnico V magnets (same manufacturer for Varney's V-1 Alnico magnets, but different style) are positioned along side the armature, one large one on each side, with the inside face of them concave to accept the armature within them.  These magnet blocks could then be much larger than Pittman's DC-71 (for instance) -- that motor having a one vertical magnet in the rear of the motor with two formed pieces of steel extending forward from it, over the armature.  Once seen, these Bowser Super Motors are unmistakeable as the side of each magnet half is beveled on its outside edge tapering up towards the top.  T here are three similar Super Motors used by Bowser, the earliest one having a very large one-piece semi-circle shaped magnet shrouding over the top of the armature from one side to the other.  Each model motor was a different size (in height), with the one used in the Challenger being the largest. As per the Bowser Reference Manual and Catalog (Redlands, California), these three Super Motors were -- # 506-A, # 506-B and # 606-A, used on the only three engines that Bill Bowser and Don Acheson produced at that time.  The # 506-A Super Motor was used with the brass M-1 Mountain that they bought from Knapp.  This motor is the one having the semi-circular magnet over the top.  It was later changed to the # 506-B in this engine. The # 506-B Super Motor was used primarily with the NYC K-11 Pacific, and the Challenger used the # 606-A.  Each motor was the same length (1.750") and same width (1.000"), but while the # 506-B was .750" high (center of armature shaft to top of magnets), the # 606-A was .937" for the same dimension (center of armature shaft to top of magnets).  Over-all height of the # 506-B was 1.062" vs. the # 606-A's over-all height of 1.250". These motors were used in these engines through the 1950's and up until the engines were finally discontinued, but were used as the replacement part for these engines into the 1970's.  The Super Motors were never used on any of the PRR style engines that Bowser produced.  During the 70's and I believe possibly for a period of at least 10 years when Bowser finally started making them again, you couldn't buy Challenger engine if your life depended on it.  I was lucky enough to buy one from George, the owner of Hobbies For Men in Beacon, NY, who at the time was one of MR's largest advertisers at the time; it was his personal engine that he built.  This was before I was able to find two new-in-box Bowser (Redlands, CA) Challengers (with the Super Motors).  Probably have close to a dozen or so of these engines, most in kit form that I've picked up during the late 80's, but only four (two built) having the Super Motor.  They became addictive after a while since the price was often right, and I have a liking for these big engines.  I just didn't know when to stop <G>. Probably have at least 6 of the brass Mountains, four of them in kits, as that was another one I used to drool over when I was a kid.  I remember first seeing it in a 1952 Kalmbach Publishing Co. booklet -- "Introduction to Scale Model Railroading, " and I couldn't afford it back then as a kid, so got them while I could when I was able to get them.  Still have that booklet from '52, as its jam-packed with info (over 60 pages).   Got to cut it short while I'm still ahead.  Later, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7075	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone

Jim, Getting back to you on this same post, maybe because I used to go to so many train meets, but I still believe that these meets were so much more useful than trying to get something on eBay.  To begin with, many of these collectors don't have the slightest clue as to what something is actually worth -- and some of them being loaded with money will bid far too much over what an engine is really worth.  So, many times, its next to impossible to even touch an item . . . and they (other collectors/modelers) used to ridicule us for stating what we concluded items were worth when contributing to both the Varney and the Athearn Greenberg Guides while they were being put together. I may also be saying this, as after a while I got to personally know a number of the vendors and with helping them set up, I also got to pre-view the shows, being able to go around to all the other tables before the shows opened (BTW, don't think that the vendors don't do this -- they most certainly do -- which is why you don't see the real good stuff; many vendors are collectors, or they figure they can make a profit on an item if they resell it).  This is why dedicated Lionel collectors always buy at least two of an item -- one to put in their collection, and the other to resell after a number of years, paying for their first one. There were many times though, that I used to send in for pre-registration tickets to shows like the two Allentown Fairgrounds (First Frost and Spring Thaw) shows, and even then, I would make sure to get out there before 6:30AM to be near the head of the line (doors opened at 8AM for pre-registered).  By the time the doors opened at 8, the line was a couple hundred people long -- with another couple hundred waiting on the regular admissions line that opened at 9:00AM.  I froze my butt off may times, but it was worth it to get in the door early.  If you want to hit the show circuit and do it right, you've got to hit them all (and hit them EARLY).  I know at least some of these shows no longer exist, but I used to hit Gilbertsville, Scranton, East Stroudsburg, Hamburg and the mixed (models & railroadiana) show in the Dieruff School in Allentown and others just in PA (Hamburg used to be almost as good as the Allentown Fair Grounds).  Then there was Springfield, MA, Timonium, MD, Albany, NY, Poughkeepsie, NY, Kingston, NY and too many to remember in NJ, with some on Long Island and some in CT. Most of these vendors wanted only to make a fair profit and were not out to gouge anyone.  As for lists, it was a matter of who received it first, but many regular vendors who put out lists periodically would send out their list all on the same day to anybody who supplied them with some SASE's (self addressed stamped envelopes) before hand -- so everybody got a fair shake as to when they'd receive it.  And again, very few were out to gouge anyone, and some of those who now still offer vintage items will start them off for a song on eBay -- its the unrealistic bidders who prevent you from buying an item at its valued price.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7076	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone

Jim,  "Why not the first Yellowstone?" when referring to the bronze/brass boiler.  As Dave Spanagel put it . . . "The 2-8-8-4 locomotive measured 11 3/8 inches long and weighed JUST OVER 2 1/4 POUNDS.  This was NOT MUCH HEAVIER than the Pacifics and Consolidations with bronze boilers."  If the V-1 motor was well-suited for the bronze boilered Pacifics and Consolidations, why would Varney consider using a bronze boiler Yellowstone at nearly double the length and weight of the smaller engines for which the V-1 was a good motor match for?  Simple arithmetic would have told them that their V-1 couldn't handle an engine that was going to weigh double that of the other two engines for which it could best handle.   Varney states the weights of these engines as -- Pacific - "Weight approx.2 pounds," Consolidation - "Weighs 2 pounds" and Yellowstone - (Weight, less ballast - 2 1/4 pounds).  Varney goes on to say "The model is powered by one motor geared 35-1 and with THE ENORMOUS WEIGHT which may be put in the boiler, a tremendous reserve power is available."  The obvious question that comes to my mind is since there is an enormous weight that can be installed in the boiler, why would (how could) anyone want to use it, if this were already a heavy bronze boiler.  Varney must be talking about a lighter aluminum boiler to which you can add a weight.   One other thing I'd like to point out is that the pre-War Yellowstone instructions call for some soldering of air tanks and piping, TO OPTICAL SCREWS that are first to be installed in the running boards of the boiler.  This is because you can't normally solder to aluminum (which is what the pre-War boiler were made of).  I've never seen any Varney pre-War instructions that did not say to first install optical screws to solder to.  Without installing these screws, the detail parts couldn't be soldered to the boiler.  Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7077	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone

Hi Jim, On your "Last Thing," in your last paragraph concerning the brass Varney Vanderbilt Tenders -- I pointed out that A&S cast them for Varney.  Seems you may have missed that part. In my last paragraph, I wrote:  ". . . both the aluminum Vandy and the brass version.  As you're probably aware, these were cast for Varney by Adams & Son Foundry (Wichita, Kansas), the same outfit that cast the Yellowstone boilers for Varney."  Also concerning these Vandy tenders, I also said in my last sentence that Adams & Son did not sell exclusively to Varney -- which should indicate that they at least sold these tenders to Varney, and also to others (or at least to Harry Garrett).  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7078	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: penn Line eyewitness

And there is this link http://members.aol.com/fydill/articles/franklin.html That has some Penn Line history.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of oljoe@... Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 7:27 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] penn Line eyewitness   Hello Jim.... Are you aware of the Penn Line history CD? I have communicated with Frank Dill about this item. I contains a history of Penn Line as well as info about the items made by Penn Line. Joe O'Loughlin Jim Heckard wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7079	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Yellowstone

Hi Jim, I too am always open to learning something new.  While I may be wrong on Varney not having a pre-War brass Yellowstone, I find I must piece together all the little tid-bits I've read on it, seemingly (to me) pointed in the direction that only an aluminum boiler was used -- coupled to not only never seeing or hearing of one, but never seeing any sort of literature on one, and not seeing one in any pre-War Varney catalogs. I don't know very much at all on the history of Adams & Son Foundry, so I have no idea when they started.  All's I have to go on to date them back to at least 1938 is that when writing about the Varney Yellowstone, Spanagel wrote that "Adams & Son Foundry of Wichita, Kansas cast the Aluminum boilers for Varney."  He then went on to say the Yellowstones were produced between 1938 and 1941, which we already know from the catalogs.  There's no indication by Spanagel that anyone else ever made any boilers for Varney.   I don't know that A & S Foundry made any boilers for Varney, brass or not, except for the Yellowstone boiler -- and I don't believe they did make any others.  The Varney pre-War Pacific/Mikado boiler and the pre-War Consolidation, incidentally, were not only made of bronze but were also cast in lead/zamac in later pre-War production.  I have about 9 or 10 examples of pre-War engines having lead/zamac boilers, mostly Pacifics and Mikados, besides the bronze ones.   Well, if you dig deep enough, sometimes you find the answer.  In looking through the pre-war catalogs at the locomotive bodies, in an effort to dig up more on the zamac boilers, I find that your bronze Yellowstone boiler was available as a separately sold item, in 1940 and 1941 only -- but was never sold in a kit.  The boiler itself was 2 1/2 pounds; when added to the double-mechanisms & motor this engine weighs in at an even 4 pounds.  The aluminum boiler is also offered separately and this boiler alone weighs only 3/4 pound (with a notation -- Ballast as required); total engine weigh with mechanisms, etc., 2 1/4 pounds (without ballast).  No boilers were offered separately before this time.  Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7080	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/25/2008
Subject: Material Ray sent

Hi Ray,            Great material. I'm printing your responses out so I can go over them carefully. It's been a long day. First visit to Hospital for test. This evening a meeting at the high school and I'm beat. I have trouble comprehending things by evening normally but this would be worse.   Thanks.                                          Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7081	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Ray,            TOTALLY AGREE (bet you thought you would never hear that) as to remarks you made concerning missing list and less train shows due to Ebay. I miss not receiving those train list where a price was stated and if you wanted it, it was on a first come basis. And because you had to send an envelope to get the list. I do miss that.           There were a lot more train shows back then. I especially liked Allentown and some other local shows that have gone by the wayside. My favorite show was Hamburg.(Never got to York.) I only live an hour from Hamburg up route 61. (Hint Hint.). I bet you if we met face to face we could talk for a little while about HO. All this typing and Emails while fast can be confusing.           Those days are almost gone. I know you could get in early especially if you were there with a seller. After dealers setup it was kind of a frenzy to see what each had before the general public left in. Kind of a little unfair. I spent more time looking at boxes under the tables rummaging. You couldn't do that after the crowd came in. You kind of had to go with the flow or get trampled. My opinion, although have not gone there lately, was they started to get to many dealers and narrowed where you walk. Oh the good old days.           Ebay has definitely changed how HO changes hands. A lot of the time the only way to get an item you need is to pay the price to win the bid. Is it a fair price ? Depends on are you the buyer or the seller..           I have been up early as I go over the comments you wrote on Varney. Over time I want to get back to you about these discussions. I've got to pin some things down dealing with dates for Pre and Post war. To me the war was 1939-1945. What would that period between those dates be defined as ? When was the war effort the cause of  utilizing certain materials to others ? FIRST Varney steam engine production were bronze (pre war) .  Super models post war . Any dates for changes made like you mentioned having cast pre war boilers ?  These and other questions are running through my mind.           One last thing. I have never weighed engines. You quoted some weights for (I hope I read it right) Varney Pre War Consolidation (Wooten Boiler) and the Varney Yellowstone with a bronze boiler as being close in weight. This is hard for me to believe. A Varney Yellowstone with bronze boiler and 2 mechanisms, in my mind, has to be close to double the pre war bronze Consolidation. Better end for now but thoroughly enjoying the discussions.                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7082	From: morgantownrr	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Regarding Allentown Show. If you are refering to the First Frost (Nov), and the Spring Thaw (Feb), in fact they are bigger than ever. Otherwise you are right; it is sad to not have many shows to go to, especially around Christmas. Of course since my son is grown, I am left with no companion, so it's a mixed bag. If you attend the a'Town shows don't miss the RR club in Bethlehem on Linden Ave. Lehigh and Keystone Valley. It is usually open duiring the show hours, at some point. It is a SPECTACULAR railroad. Can't say enough. State of the art, double deck, everything you can imagine. In some aspects it actually seems to approach ACTUAL size of prototype, which is the rr's in this area in about the fifties. It is ingeniously designed, actually seems to go places. It is like looking at an actual RR from a plane. MorganS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7083	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Jim,  Ah yes, the GOOD OLD DAYS . . . of going frantically through train meets, table to table, but there was always good stuff to be found.  You never knew what to expect, but you could often find some great surprises. Noticing you're up early -- it might appear that you may be up TOO early (or just haven't had that 1st cup of coffee yet) -- LOL.  On the weights of the Varney engines, I never weighed any myself either.  All weights I quoted were taken directly from Varney's specs as found in the catalogs of 1939, 1940 & 1941.  The weights were not mentioned in the 1938 catalog.   As per the Varney catalogs these specs are included in, Varney states that the pre-War bronze Consolidation (w/Wooten fire-box) weighs 2 pounds.  Then, Varney states that the pre-War aluminum Yellowstone weighs 2 1/4 pounds.  These weights are for the complete engine (less tender).  There is that much of a difference between using aluminum for the boiler and using bronze for the boiler.  The aluminum Yellowstone boiler weighs only 3/4 pound, so the additional front mechanism of this engine makes up for the difference of the extra weight of the shorter but heavier Consolidation boiler, plus some.  There is not much difference in weight.  Except for the additional front mechanism of the Yellowstone, both engines have the same (or similar) 63" 8-Driver mechanism driven by a V-1 motor. There is a BIG difference though, in the weights of the bronze Consolidation and the BRONZE Yellowstone -- with this Yellowstone weighing twice as much -- 4 pounds.  If this is what you are thinking of when you said that, you need to please re-read what I said, while you have that first cup of coffee <G>. Granted, as we all know, the Second World War started in 1939 -- for all the European countries, when Germany first invaded Poland and then kept going, sweeping through so many of its neighboring countries, causing England to oppose them so as not to be invaded.  As we all know too, we (the United States) didn't get into the War until December of 1941.  Up until then, there was no need for a war-effort on our part as Pres. Roosevelt was trying to avoid getting into the War, while supplying Great Britain with materiel.  It was only after this time (12/11/41) that the various model manufacturers (including Varney) converted their efforts toward the War when we had to declare war on Japan, and then having Germany declare war on us.  Most of 1941 (up until December) was a peace-time period for us, which is why automobiles were still being made (including some early 1942 models, which came out in September '41), and is why Varney and others had a 1941 catalog and were selling H0 models during most of that year.  Agreed, the first pre-War Varney engines had bronze boilers, except for the Streamline 4-8-4 (later described as the Streamline Modified Electric Type) -- BTW, Varney states in the 1939 catalog that "Its design is adapted from the Pennsylvania GG-1" (maybe this is why its called the "shorty GG-1" by many modelers) -- and also except for the Varney Yellowstone, which used an aluminum boiler, with the bronze boiler not being available until 1940, as a separately-sold item (which I've already mentioned).   Agreed also on the Varney "Super Engines," which as we all know (or should know) were not produce until after the War  -- with a completely new design in the chassis, its springing and its motor, but I fail to see why you would need to bring this up.   Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7084	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: HOTCO GG-1

Attachments : Good morning Gerold,        Going to pass on one more electric. When first viewed a lot of people will say Penn Line. While it is a Japanese copy it VERY closely resembles the Penn Line GG-1. Years ago when I first broached the possibility of this engine a number of people said no way even though there had been ads in MR that told of how a shipment of these engines meant for the US sank. This might have led other people to thinking no others came. I then sought out information to verify it's history and existence.        This GG-1 was produced by the same company that produced steame ngines for HOTCO/GHC and Polk's hobby. It was called New One. In a letter I received from Mr.Bernard Paul, at that time President of International Hobby Corporation he stated " the GG-1 you referred to as HOTCO was one of our first attempts to import from Japan. You are right, it was made by New One".          I think there was a tie between General Hobbies Corporation/ HOTCO to AHM to IHC and Mr. Paul, well known in HO, was involved somehow in all.          GHC / HOTCO was in Philadelphia. In Mr. Paul's letter he states that the first HOTCO GG-I came into the US in 1958. I forget what's on the inside of this engine other then a single motor. I have no paperwork and don't feel like disassembling. It probably has some kind of Selenium Rectifier but without taking the engine apart I don't want to bet the bank on it.          I only know of  5 strip Tuscan original paint jobs. All the engines I've seen with those gold strips not the best at lining up. The second picture I have sent is a  HOTCO GG-1 basketcase that I painted and decaled in black. Plus forgive the dust on this and all my engines. I'm to lazy to dust them constantly.          Well I move on next time to some lesser known , harder to find Diesels and Steam Engines. That is unless you have seen enough and say Stop it.                                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7085	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: HOTCO GG-1

Jim, DON'T STOP! John Hagen St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Well I move on next time to some lesser known , harder to find Diesels and Steam Engines. That is unless you have seen enough and say Stop it. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7086	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hey Guys,   Just wanted to chime in...   My following comments are not meant to disagree or offend anyone, so please take it that way.. It is just a different perspective from a younger collector & modeler.   I know alot of you older gents like to remember the Good-ol-days of the many train shows and frown upon the advent of eBay and the resulting deminishing quantity and quality of the shows, but hear me out, please..   When you guys were in your prime (mid 30's) and frequenting these shows. You, as you have already stated, had your in's and secrets of how you were able to get in early and find the great deals..   I on the other hand, was young.. teens and/or pre-teens... I was one of those general public participants.. For me the train show was both a great experience as well as a sad experience..  In those days, there was little to no external pressure on dealers to keep their prices reasonable.. Sure, you guys knew where the deals were and how to get them, but I didn't. I loved trains, but put them away for nearly 20 years because the hobby was just too expensive for me. I di not get to enjoy it the way you did.   Since the advent of Ebay, I have finally had exposure to some of the most fanastic pieces I have ever seen not to mention finally having access with the chance to buy,.. I am not saying that I am pro-ebay and against the shows.. I still love going to them and now have more money and am willing to spend more at the shows when I go. Honestly, I hat to see the shows go. I have found a few fellows I like to chat with and meet in person at the shows and it makes the experience even more enjoyable.. can't do that on ebay..   If it were not for my ebay experience, I would never have sold Don the C-Liner he now has.. I then would have never benn informed by a fellow ebay'r and VintageHO group member of the existance Don's discussion group.. I would have then therfore met and established what I believe  and hope to be lasting relationships and friendships with some fellow members here on line over the past 3-4 years..  I believe now, especially since the fading existance due to profitability of the train shows..it is groups like this in conjunction with eBay that are actually keeping the hobby alive. These groups provide the comradery and access of the vital information that ebay or any other source can not provide and ebay has now become one of, if not the main source of the tangable items of which we discuss and desire..   I have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences both with the people I have met, spoken to or emailed concerning this hobby, both on line and off... For me, being both a buyer and seller on eBay has refired my passion for the hobby and I am now (finally in my prime) getting to experience the same level of enjoyment in it as you guys did in your "Good-ol-days". I never had those experiences, so I am unable to relate or miss them..   I did try selling at a show once here at the Monroeville expo mart.. After 1 day of prep, two days at the show and 1 day to clean up, I made less than I would have with 8 hours worth of work on ebay. I also found the venders were relentless in the morning before the show, wanting my best stuff cheap and the rest of the weekend was mainly "cherry pickers".  I did not have stted price tags on all my items, but rather had people make me offers.. At the end, I had to reorganize about 2/3 of the stuff I had taken and pack it away again.. With ebay, onece i list it..it is gone, no matter what it sells for, I never have to see it again.   Pertaining to the thoughts as to whether current prices are fair?? I am not sure what that means.. If both the buyer and seller agree on a price, then it is fair.. It does not depend on whether you are the buyer OR seller.. Mybe if one were used to getting an in on the items before they were brought to market, I could see where one might be disapointed that this acces no longer exists.. but it is fair to allow everyone acces.. For me, when I was young, model railroading felt like an exclusive club, of which I was not a menber.. I now no longer feel that way..   So, for me the change has been good...   I am in no way here trying to start a debate or discussion of eBay vs Train shows... Just stating my perspective as I have experienced an remember it. I know some guys really hate eBay and all that it has brought about and I respect that, although I may not feel the same way.   I hope this does not stir up any harsh debate or ill will. That is really not my intent..   Sean     --- On Tue, 8/26/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 6:43 AM Hi Ray,            TOTALLY AGREE (bet you thought you would never hear that) as to remarks you made concerning missing list and less train shows due to Ebay. I miss not receiving those train list where a price was stated and if you wanted it, it was on a first come basis. And because you had to send an envelope to get the list. I do miss that.           There were a lot more train shows back then. I especially liked Allentown and some other local shows that have gone by the wayside. My favorite show was Hamburg.(Never got to York.) I only live an hour from Hamburg up route 61. (Hint Hint.). I bet you if we met face to face we could talk for a little while about HO. All this typing and Emails while fast can be confusing.           Those days are almost gone. I know you could get in early especially if you were there with a seller. After dealers setup it was kind of a frenzy to see what each had before the general public left in. Kind of a little unfair. I spent more time looking at boxes under the tables rummaging. You couldn't do that after the crowd came in. You kind of had to go with the flow or get trampled. My opinion, although have not gone there lately, was they started to get to many dealers and narrowed where you walk. Oh the good old days.           Ebay has definitely changed how HO changes hands. A lot of the time the only way to get an item you need is to pay the price to win the bid. Is it a fair price ? Depends on are you the buyer or the seller..           I have been up early as I go over the comments you wrote on Varney. Over time I want to get back to you about these discussions. I've got to pin some things down dealing with dates for Pre and Post war. To me the war was 1939-1945. What would that period between those dates be defined as ? When was the war effort the cause of  utilizing certain materials to others ? FIRST Varney steam engine production were bronze (pre war) .  Super models post war . Any dates for changes made like you mentioned having cast pre war boilers ?  These and other questions are running through my mind.           One last thing. I have never weighed engines. You quoted some weights for (I hope I read it right) Varney Pre War Consolidation (Wooten Boiler) and the Varney Yellowstone with a bronze boiler as being close in weight. This is hard for me to believe. A Varney Yellowstone with bronze boiler and 2 mechanisms, in my mind, has to be close to double the pre war bronze Consolidation. Better end for now but thoroughly enjoying the discussions.                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7087	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Harry J. Garrett, was -Varney Yellowstone

Attachments : Jim et al,  Getting back to Harry J. Garrett & Co. (Dallas 1, TX), I just wish I knew more about the history of this company and its ties with A&S Foundry.  I dug out my Garrett Vanderbilt tender kit and plans.  I had forgotten its exact method of construction.  While being identical to Varney's Vandy tenders, the main body casting is 2-piece (two halves divided down the center).  The modeler is supposed to drill two holes through the sides, about 1/3 of the way from each end, and then continue to drill straight across to through the other side, using a # 36 drill bit.   This second side's holes are to be tapped, using a # 6-32 tap. The first side's holes are then to be enlarged using a # 28 drill bit, and then countersunk.  These two halves are then held together using two 1 3/8" Flathead # 6-32 machine screws. Seems like this is their way of being able to copy and use Varney's Vandy tender as their own (with modifications), since now it appears that this design was not originally A & S Foundry's design but was submitted to A & S by Varney using Varney specs.  On the H.J. Garrett plans, there is a box that is often found on mechanical drawings.  Garrett's box for his Vandy tender says: COPYRIGHT Harry J Garrett & Co., SCALE MODEL SUPPLIES, then the first box says -- DRAWN BY | SEP. 15, '47 | BILL McCLANAHAN.  The second box says -- APPROVED - | SEP. 17, '47 | W.R.BOYER.  Then the last box says -- CHECKED | SEP. 16, '47 | H.J. GARRETT JR. From this copyright declaration, its obvious that they wanted to establish that their Varney knock-off design was different, although that still leaves that long top piece to be installed on top of the tender body; its still identical to that of Varney's.  Later,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7088	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Sean,  Always interested in seeing other's viewpoints.  Glad to see you no longer feel left out of the model railroading circle.  For you not to expect any discussion of this topic though, after you threw out to us some of your viewpoints is not realistic as you may realize that's there's always two sides to every story.  But there's no reason for any discussions here not to be friendly, as I can respect where you're coming from without any need at all for any ill will. I would only like to add that while, yes . . . we (I) had my occasional in's at some shows, but there were many shows where the vendors I knew didn't attend.  I purposely pointed out some of the hardships (freezing my butt off for an hour and a half) I subjected myself to in my efforts to get in earlier -- which anyone else could have done -- as pre-registration tickets were available to anyone if they just took the time to send in an SASE a few weeks before the show, and didn't mind freezing the way I did. If the hobby was too expensive for you 20 years ago, I can't understand how it could be any cheaper for you now if you're paying ebay prices, unless you're getting some really good deals.  Yes, there will always be cherry-picking at these shows, you have to expect that.  Naturally, as collectors, we're all out to get the better and more collectable items.  I'm willing to bet that there are very few collectors of the old Life-Like, AHM or Tyco cars, but I guess I could be wrong on that also. Anyway, that's what going to these shows is all about, to try to find the rarer items (which includes cherry picking). As for what a fair price on eBay is -- its always fair if its agreeable to both the buyer and the seller, but that doesn't mean the item is priced at its real worth.  As has been in recent discussions, Penn Line Crusaders in nice condition are now averaging  about $1200.  This may be too steep for many collectors, but that doesn't change what the item may be worth as an established value in the collector's market.  Now, let's say for instance such an engine was put up on eBay starting out at a nominal fee, and there was someone who had bottomless pockets (loads of money), and bid $2000 as he wanted it badly for his collection -- and didn't think twice about the money part -- maybe even knowing that he was overpaying, but not caring.  Do you think that this would be a fair price????  I rest my case. I am glad, though, that you had some good eBay experiences, and that you found your way here through Don.  Best regards,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7089	From: oljoeoh	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: HOTCO GG-1

The GHC GG-1 didn't run nearly as well as the Penn Line example. I bought one to compare it with my Penn Line and found it had many interesting similarities including the small selenium rectifier used to control the directional lighting. I liked the Penn Line much better and sold the GHC item for slightly less than I paid for it. Seems to me it was under $25. The Penn Line, on the other hand, went for $49.95. Both locos used a single motor to power both trucks. I think the Penn Line used a DC-71. The GHC motor ran hot, like many of the imported locos of that time, and had terrible low speed characteristics. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Good morning Gerold, > Going to pass on one more electric. When first viewed a lot of people will say Penn Line. While it is a Japanese copy it VERY closely resembles the Penn Line GG-1. Years ago when I first broached the possibility of this engine a number of people said no way even though there had been ads in MR that told of how a shipment of these engines meant for the US sank. This might have led other people to thinking no others came. I then sought out information to verify it's history and existence. > This GG-1 was produced by the same company that produced steame ngines for HOTCO/GHC and Polk's hobby. It was called New One. In a letter I received from Mr.Bernard Paul, at that time President of International Hobby Corporation he stated " the GG-1 you referred to as HOTCO was one of our first attempts to import from Japan. You are right, it was made by New One". > I think there was a tie between General Hobbies Corporation/ HOTCO to AHM to IHC and Mr. Paul, well known in HO, was involved somehow in all. > GHC / HOTCO was in Philadelphia. In Mr. Paul's letter he states that the first HOTCO GG-I came into the US in 1958. I forget what's on the inside of this engine other then a single motor. I have no paperwork and don't feel like disassembling. It probably has some kind of Selenium Rectifier but without taking the engine apart I don't want to bet the bank on it. > I only know of 5 strip Tuscan original paint jobs. All the engines I've seen with those gold strips not the best at lining up. The second picture I have sent is a HOTCO GG-1 basketcase that I painted and decaled in black. Plus forgive the dust on this and all my engines. I'm to lazy to dust them constantly. > Well I move on next time to some lesser known , harder to find Diesels and Steam Engines. That is unless you have seen enough and say Stop it. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7090	From: rcjge	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hey Ray W.; As a Moderator on the Tyco Collector's Forum, let me just say, we have lots of nice folks for whom a Tyco brings back fond memories. There's a lot less competition and wonderful community. ASs well as avid collecting! I share the Ebay experience, and am grateful for it's presence. If it means fewer train shows that is adaptation, no matter how nostalgic one gets for a golden past. I participate vigorously now, whereas before I couldn't. I will make a 7-8 hour drive to Allentown in November to enjoy that to. Lots of fun. No question in my mind however that Ebay has made model train collecting more egalitarian. To the few, who benefited from their old personal networks, this is the new world order... I hope many more people come to enjoy this wonderful hobby of ours... Best, Gareth --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote: > > Hi Sean, Always interested in seeing other's viewpoints. Glad to see you no > longer feel left out of the model railroading circle. For you not to expect > any discussion of this topic though, after you threw out to us some of your > viewpoints is not realistic as you may realize that's there's always two sides > to every story. But there's no reason for any discussions here not to be > friendly, as I can respect where you're coming from without any need at all for any > ill will. > > I would only like to add that while, yes . . . we (I) had my occasional in's > at some shows, but there were many shows where the vendors I knew didn't > attend. I purposely pointed out some of the hardships (freezing my butt off for an > hour and a half) I subjected myself to in my efforts to get in earlier -- > which anyone else could have done -- as pre-registration tickets were available > to anyone if they just took the time to send in an SASE a few weeks before the > show, and didn't mind freezing the way I did. > > If the hobby was too expensive for you 20 years ago, I can't understand how > it could be any cheaper for you now if you're paying ebay prices, unless you're > getting some really good deals. Yes, there will always be cherry-picking at > these shows, you have to expect that. Naturally, as collectors, we're all out > to get the better and more collectable items. I'm willing to bet that there > are very few collectors of the old Life-Like, AHM or Tyco cars, but I guess I > could be wrong on that also. Anyway, that's what going to these shows is all > about, to try to find the rarer items (which includes cherry picking). > > As for what a fair price on eBay is -- its always fair if its agreeable to > both the buyer and the seller, but that doesn't mean the item is priced at its > real worth. As has been in recent discussions, Penn Line Crusaders in nice > condition are now averaging about $1200. This may be too steep for many > collectors, but that doesn't change what the item may be worth as an established > value in the collector's market. Now, let's say for instance such an engine was > put up on eBay starting out at a nominal fee, and there was someone who had > bottomless pockets (loads of money), and bid $2000 as he wanted it badly for his > collection -- and didn't think twice about the money part -- maybe even > knowing that he was overpaying, but not caring. Do you think that this would be a > fair price???? I rest my case. > > I am glad, though, that you had some good eBay experiences, and that you > found your way here through Don. Best regards, Ray W. </HTML> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7091	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi again Ray,   Sorry, I must have been not clear..   You said.. " is not realistic as you may realize that's there's always two sides to every story"   It is not that I was not seeking a response, it is just that I did not want to stir up a hornets nest of a debate.. ebay can be a heated topic.. It has just been for me what the shows were for you guys... I respect that.. Besides, discussing ebay and trainshows and how they relate to someone's model railroading experience may be within topic, debating obet the lagistics of ebay itself certainly are not and that is wat I was looking to avoid and therfore am not trying to discuss..   As for "Cherry Pickers" we all are, as buyers, whether we want to admit it or not.. I only meant as a seller at the show, that was all I had.. With ebay, it all goes and I do not have to see it any more.. keeps my wife happy if I can reduce the clutter..   25-30 years ago, I had a $1.50 per week allowance until it was cut off when I was 10. At 10, my chores also doubled...making worse the fact I had no money, to put it nicely..     Now, I work full time with an engineering degree that pays all my bills I have two hobbies that are completely self supported solely through my ebay train sales, so now I ave some cash in hand when I go to the shows...  As for deals, that is all I look for and mostly get..  I go for good ones all the time.. (My mustangs are my other hobby my trains pay for..)   I have pieces that I go after that I am willing to pay full price for, such as many of my pre-war Mantuas (including the Mantua Mountain Type Mechanism Kit in the box that I traded a complete Varney Super Mikado with the rare motor for).  I also have a Penn Line Crusader that my bid was ~$1,100. I did not pay nearly that but, in most cases I am not willing to go the current rate..   I agree that those special occasions when an item goes sky high on ebay, it is by no means an establishment of the current market value for a particular piece.. but I have to say, ebay as been tremendously helpful in establishing and stabilizing the current values..   For a buyer to bid to the point where he is overpayng is certainly not good for his pocket book, but why not fair?, and at that point who is calling foul?    Not far to me is when it is poorly-repersented by the seller and then consequently over paid for.   So.. on that we differ.. but that is ok as well...   Still at work so i have been typing this off on on for the past hour, so please forgive me if it is kinda scattered..   Sean --- On Tue, 8/26/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 12:23 PM Hi Sean,  Always interested in seeing other's viewpoints.  Glad to see you no longer feel left out of the model railroading circle.  For you not to expect any discussion of this topic though, after you threw out to us some of your viewpoints is not realistic as you may realize that's there's always two sides to every story.  But there's no reason for any discussions here not to be friendly, as I can respect where you're coming from without any need at all for any ill will. I would only like to add that while, yes . . . we (I) had my occasional in's at some shows, but there were many shows where the vendors I knew didn't attend.  I purposely pointed out some of the hardships (freezing my butt off for an hour and a half) I subjected myself to in my efforts to get in earlier -- which anyone else could have done -- as pre-registration tickets were available to anyone if they just took the time to send in an SASE a few weeks before the show, and didn't mind freezing the way I did. If the hobby was too expensive for you 20 years ago, I can't understand how it could be any cheaper for you now if you're paying ebay prices, unless you're getting some really good deals.  Yes, there will always be cherry-picking at these shows, you have to expect that.  Naturally, as collectors, we're all out to get the better and more collectable items.  I'm willing to bet that there are very few collectors of the old Life-Like, AHM or Tyco cars, but I guess I could be wrong on that also. Anyway, that's what going to these shows is all about, to try to find the rarer items (which includes cherry picking). As for what a fair price on eBay is -- its always fair if its agreeable to both the buyer and the seller, but that doesn't mean the item is priced at its real worth.  As has been in recent discussions, Penn Line Crusaders in nice condition are now averaging  about $1200.  This may be too steep for many collectors, but that doesn't change what the item may be worth as an established value in the collector's market.  Now, let's say for instance such an engine was put up on eBay starting out at a nominal fee, and there was someone who had bottomless pockets (loads of money), and bid $2000 as he wanted it badly for his collection -- and didn't think twice about the money part -- maybe even knowing that he was overpaying, but not caring.  Do you think that this would be a fair price????  I rest my case. I am glad, though, that you had some good eBay experiences, and that you found your way here through Don.  Best regards,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7092	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Gareht!   That is it exactly! I think it is a great hobby and I hope it stays for a little while longer.   Sean --- On Tue, 8/26/08, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote: From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 1:22 PM Hey Ray W.; As a Moderator on the Tyco Collector's Forum, let me just say, we have lots of nice folks for whom a Tyco brings back fond memories. There's a lot less competition and wonderful community. ASs well as avid collecting! I share the Ebay experience, and am grateful for it's presence. If it means fewer train shows that is adaptation, no matter how nostalgic one gets for a golden past. I participate vigorously now, whereas before I couldn't. I will make a 7-8 hour drive to Allentown in November to enjoy that to. Lots of fun. No question in my mind however that Ebay has made model train collecting more egalitarian. To the few, who benefited from their old personal networks, this is the new world order... I hope many more people come to enjoy this wonderful hobby of ours... Best, Gareth --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, erieberk@... wrote: > > Hi Sean, Always interested in seeing other's viewpoints. Glad to see you no > longer feel left out of the model railroading circle. For you not to expect > any discussion of this topic though, after you threw out to us some of your > viewpoints is not realistic as you may realize that's there's always two sides > to every story. But there's no reason for any discussions here not to be > friendly, as I can respect where you're coming from without any need at all for any > ill will. > > I would only like to add that while, yes . . . we (I) had my occasional in's > at some shows, but there were many shows where the vendors I knew didn't > attend. I purposely pointed out some of the hardships (freezing my butt off for an > hour and a half) I subjected myself to in my efforts to get in earlier -- > which anyone else could have done -- as pre-registration tickets were available > to anyone if they just took the time to send in an SASE a few weeks before the > show, and didn't mind freezing the way I did. > > If the hobby was too expensive for you 20 years ago, I can't understand how > it could be any cheaper for you now if you're paying ebay prices, unless you're > getting some really good deals. Yes, there will always be cherry-picking at > these shows, you have to expect that. Naturally, as collectors, we're all out > to get the better and more collectable items. I'm willing to bet that there > are very few collectors of the old Life-Like, AHM or Tyco cars, but I guess I > could be wrong on that also. Anyway, that's what going to these shows is all > about, to try to find the rarer items (which includes cherry picking). > > As for what a fair price on eBay is -- its always fair if its agreeable to > both the buyer and the seller, but that doesn't mean the item is priced at its > real worth. As has been in recent discussions, Penn Line Crusaders in nice > condition are now averaging about $1200. This may be too steep for many > collectors, but that doesn't change what the item may be worth as an established > value in the collector's market. Now, let's say for instance such an engine was > put up on eBay starting out at a nominal fee, and there was someone who had > bottomless pockets (loads of money), and bid $2000 as he wanted it badly for his > collection -- and didn't think twice about the money part -- maybe even > knowing that he was overpaying, but not caring. Do you think that this would be a > fair price???? I rest my case. > > I am glad, though, that you had some good eBay experiences, and that you > found your way here through Don. Best regards, Ray W. </HTML> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7093	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: Harry J. Garrett, was -Varney Yellowstone

Hi Ray,            I will change what I intended to send to my friend Gerold and  send both of you and anyone else interested a picture of my one HJ Garrett/ GARCO engine. The real part that will be interesting is the 3 sheets of assembly instructions and the 2 sheets with it describing the tender you have and showing pieces cast by A&S for an Unit that later was sold by DallasModel Craft. After that I will send you pictures and info of 2 types/runs of that E unit sold under the DMC name. One has single drive with paper sides (yes printed paper) over a piece of metal for sides and a second type that has embossed aluminum sides and has both trucks driven.These kits have parts cast by A&S,. The inside of the roof which is aluminum has A&S raised on the casting. Jim    ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Harry J. Garrett, was -Varney Yellowstone Jim et al,  Getting back to Harry J. Garrett & Co. (Dallas 1, TX), I just wish I knew more about the history of this company and its ties with A&S Foundry.  I dug out my Garrett Vanderbilt tender kit and plans.  I had forgotten its exact method of construction.  While being identical to Varney's Vandy tenders, the main body casting is 2-piece (two halves divided down the center).  The modeler is supposed to drill two holes through the sides, about 1/3 of the way from each end, and then continue to drill straight across to through the other side, using a # 36 drill bit.   This second side's holes are to be tapped, using a # 6-32 tap. The first side's holes are then to be enlarged using a # 28 drill bit, and then countersunk.  These two halves are then held together using two 1 3/8" Flathead # 6-32 machine screws. Seems like this is their way of being able to copy and use Varney's Vandy tender as their own (with modifications) , since now it appears that this design was not originally A & S Foundry's design but was submitted to A & S by Varney using Varney specs.  On the H.J. Garrett plans, there is a box that is often found on mechanical drawings.  Garrett's box for his Vandy tender says: COPYRIGHT Harry J Garrett & Co., SCALE MODEL SUPPLIES, then the first box says -- DRAWN BY | SEP. 15, '47 | BILL McCLANAHAN.  The second box says -- APPROVED - | SEP. 17, '47 | W.R.BOYER.  Then the last box says -- CHECKED | SEP. 16, '47 | H.J. GARRETT JR. From this copyright declaration, its obvious that they wanted to establish that their Varney knock-off design was different, although that still leaves that long top piece to be installed on top of the tender body; its still identical to that of Varney's.  Later,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7094	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: GARCO PRODUCTS cast by A&S

Attachments : Hi Ray,           These 2 pictures are of sheets that were attached to the plans for the GARCO engine I have. I think you can read "Another GARCO product" at top. These were cast by A&S and it states so in the rest of plans I will send tomorrow with my GARCO engine.          Boy I really wish I had a scanner. Don't know how good these will be but glad to rewrite the fine print if necessary. As soon as these go through I will send two more pictures. One of the GARCO Vanderbuilt  tender and one from the engine tomorrow. This GARCO"set" of plans has to be one of the largest (except for Winton) not only in paper size but number of sheets with the additional ads.                                                                                                                              Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7095	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: More GARCO PRODUCTS

Attachments : Hi Ray,               Back again with 2 other pictures.    I think the first one will be the sheet you  talked about. A copy of the GARCO Vanderbuilt tender. This copy came from "The Reporting Mark". The second picture is of the Baldwin type GARCO engine from the rest of the set of plans which I will send tomorrow , including my engine and original box.              I'm starting to wonder if we are making Don pull his hair out with all this Email traffic. Hope not.                                                                                                                Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7096	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Ray and Sean,   I too have had decent ebay experiences, if not for ebay, I might have said to heck with everything several years ago, as I was just getting back into model railroading in the late 90's, after about 3 or 4 years out of the hobby, we had a bankruptsy a few years earlier, and almost everything got sold off that I did have, so getting back into the hobby wasn't just a job, it was an adventure!   I came back in via O scale, 2 rail, (I never could get past that third rail or out of scale stuff of the toy train crowd!), since at that time, Dana's RR Supply didn't exist in Springhill, Florida, finding other modelers, as well as trains was mostly spent online or in Tampa, and ebay eventually became my daily train show.   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7097	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: GARCO AGAIN

Attachments : Back Again,               Decided to send 2 more pictures that are in reality 1 long sheet. There are still 2 more long sheets to send plus the engine and box. To much for tomorrow.  This says No. 2 in our "GARCO-LOCO" series. Don't know number one YET.      This sheet should be very interesting to Ray as the bottom of the sheet (2nd picture) list:     CASTINGS BY ADAMS      Drawings by Walter E. Gray     Special 8 ft BW (Baldwin Westinghouse) Trucks by Douglas Baker      Motors by Pittman 12 volt, 5 pole, D.C. ( the plans tomorrow will show different options for drives and 2 different motors)          I must start writing out the full name as Ray has been doing. It is Harry J. Garrett & CO. I have been shortening it to H J Garrett (for one finger typing purposes), but GARCO was the company logo.                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7098	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: More GARCO PRODUCTS

HEY !!!!! I think I have one of those Garco B. W. Switchers ............. Are those brass or bronze castings that look like they are sand castings??? If So....... I can show one. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 26, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Ray,               Back again with 2 other pictures.    I think the first one will be the sheet you  talked about. A copy of the GARCO Vanderbuilt tender. This copy came from "The Reporting Mark". The second picture is of the Baldwin type GARCO engine from the rest of the set of plans which I will send tomorrow , including my engine and original box.              I'm starting to wonder if we are making Don pull his hair out with all this Email traffic. Hope not.                                                                                                                Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7099	From: Chris B	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: GARCO AGAIN

Attachments : Hi Jim, I'm new on the site, but the three pictures you've sent confirmed for me that a heavy sandcast model of a Baldwin switcher I got on ebay was a GARCO.   The model I got was not mint but was in complete unpainted condition, with all details as shown in those pictures, including what looks like to me is the original motor, fabric insulated wiring, rubber tubing, and the phenolic board chassis.    I ran it up and down a test track once and packed it away for safekeeping, I'll post a picture of it later when I dig it out of the trunk of boxes, but in the meantime, I do have a picture and a question...   it's a picture of some vaguely similar six wheel diesel trucks I was very happy to buy on ebay from a member of this group, and I'm hoping the maker can be identified.   Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:45:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] GARCO AGAIN Back Again,               Decided to send 2 more pictures that are in reality 1 long sheet. There are still 2 more long sheets to send plus the engine and box. To much for tomorrow.  This says No. 2 in our "GARCO-LOCO" series. Don't know number one YET.      This sheet should be very interesting to Ray as the bottom of the sheet (2nd picture) list:     CASTINGS BY ADAMS      Drawings by Walter E. Gray     Special 8 ft BW (Baldwin Westinghouse) Trucks by Douglas Baker      Motors by Pittman 12 volt, 5 pole, D.C. ( the plans tomorrow will show different options for drives and 2 different motors)          I must start writing out the full name as Ray has been doing. It is Harry J. Garrett & CO. I have been shortening it to H J Garrett (for one finger typing purposes), but GARCO was the company logo.                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7100	From: Chris B	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: GARCO AGAIN

Hi Jim, I'm new on the site, but the three pictures you've sent confirmed for me that a heavy sandcast model of a Baldwin switcher I got on ebay was a GARCO.   The model I got was not mint but was in complete unpainted condition, with all details as shown in those pictures, including what looks like to me is the original motor, fabric insulated wiring, rubber tubing, and the phenolic board chassis.    I ran it up and down a test track once and packed it away for safekeeping, I'll post a picture of it later when I dig it out of the trunk of boxes, but in the meantime, I do have a picture I could post, and a question...   it's a picture of some vaguely similar six wheel diesel trucks I was very happy to buy on ebay from a member of this group, and I'm hoping the maker can be identified.   Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:45:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] GARCO AGAIN Back Again,               Decided to send 2 more pictures that are in reality 1 long sheet. There are still 2 more long sheets to send plus the engine and box. To much for tomorrow.  This says No. 2 in our "GARCO-LOCO" series. Don't know number one YET.      This sheet should be very interesting to Ray as the bottom of the sheet (2nd picture) list:     CASTINGS BY ADAMS      Drawings by Walter E. Gray     Special 8 ft BW (Baldwin Westinghouse) Trucks by Douglas Baker      Motors by Pittman 12 volt, 5 pole, D.C. ( the plans tomorrow will show different options for drives and 2 different motors)          I must start writing out the full name as Ray has been doing. It is Harry J. Garrett & CO. I have been shortening it to H J Garrett (for one finger typing purposes), but GARCO was the company logo.                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7101	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: GARCO AGAIN

Chris,           Welcome aboard. Hope it is the GARCO engine. Kind of rare and unknown. Since people are responding already I will take picture of my engine, box and plan that I was going to post tomorrow and add today in about an hour      While I have a hunch already as to the pictures (very good) of the "unknown trucks'' you sent I like to take my time before saying. Maybe someone else out can say now. I will get back to you on that later.                                                                                       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] GARCO AGAIN Hi Jim, I'm new on the site, but the three pictures you've sent confirmed for me that a heavy sandcast model of a Baldwin switcher I got on ebay was a GARCO.   The model I got was not mint but was in complete unpainted condition, with all details as shown in those pictures, including what looks like to me is the original motor, fabric insulated wiring, rubber tubing, and the phenolic board chassis.    I ran it up and down a test track once and packed it away for safekeeping, I'll post a picture of it later when I dig it out of the trunk of boxes, but in the meantime, I do have a picture and a question...   it's a picture of some vaguely similar six wheel diesel trucks I was very happy to buy on ebay from a member of this group, and I'm hoping the maker can be identified.   Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:45:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] GARCO AGAIN Back Again,               Decided to send 2 more pictures that are in reality 1 long sheet. There are still 2 more long sheets to send plus the engine and box. To much for tomorrow.  This says No. 2 in our "GARCO-LOCO" series. Don't know number one YET.      This sheet should be very interesting to Ray as the bottom of the sheet (2nd picture) list:     CASTINGS BY ADAMS      Drawings by Walter E. Gray     Special 8 ft BW (Baldwin Westinghouse) Trucks by Douglas Baker      Motors by Pittman 12 volt, 5 pole, D.C. ( the plans tomorrow will show different options for drives and 2 different motors)          I must start writing out the full name as Ray has been doing. It is Harry J. Garrett & CO. I have been shortening it to H J Garrett (for one finger typing purposes), but GARCO was the company logo.                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7102	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: More GARCO PRODUCTS

Hi Mike,  I will take pictures of mine and post in about an hour. I will add some comments but please share your engine either now or after.      Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More GARCO PRODUCTS HEY !!!!! I think I have one of those Garco B. W. Switchers ............ . Are those brass or bronze castings that look like they are sand castings??? If So....... I can show one. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 26, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Ray,               Back again with 2 other pictures.    I think the first one will be the sheet you  talked about. A copy of the GARCO Vanderbuilt tender. This copy came from "The Reporting Mark". The second picture is of the Baldwin type GARCO engine from the rest of the set of plans which I will send tomorrow , including my engine and original box.              I'm starting to wonder if we are making Don pull his hair out with all this Email traffic. Hope not.                        &nbs p;                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7103	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Garco Engine Pictures

Attachments : Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7104	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Pacific Traction

H'lo All...yesterday a block of Pacific Traction freight cars went for (to me!) high bids on eB...I haven't been able to find anything on Pacific Traction other than a mention on Uncle Dave's website that they were an importer in the '67-'68 period. Does anyone have Pacific Traction boxcars/stock cars? Of what are they constructed? And any reason why they are hunted?? Jes' curious! Chrs, Russ   And a PS to Sean...box of goodies arrived yesterday from you...if you hunted them at train shows, keep up the good work!! Impossible to get Down Under... Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7105	From: Chris B	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Attachments : Jim, I've sent these pictures to confirm what looks like a Garco Baldwin switcher to me, now that I've seen it up close  it's a lot rougher than I remembered, but it did run at least once for me before the rubber tubing failed, so it certainly pulls its own weight!  I don't ever plan to clean the crud/patina off, but i might replace the tubing, the fabric insulation looks ok for now.  I learned about GARCO switchers from searching online for heavy cast switchers that could pull on grades, and the few mentions of this model made it sound like it was the heaviest switcher shell anyone could remember.  I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine.  Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier. My story is similar to his, I'm almost retired, and finally building the dream layout, and bashing all metal engines that will pull all metal vintage freight consists up steep grades... I window shopped at shows for decades, but couldn't learn enough to buy smart so I held back.  Once the online groups started sharing information, and I spent a few years just windowshopping on ebay too, I was able to cherrypick on ebay myself, for example, I had a lot of fun buying hobbytown drives in plastic shells that were not identified as hobbytowns in the listings.  It's the ebay equivalent of getting into the shows and under the tables early. I am grateful for the knowledge shared by the senior members of this group, and I hope to sit back down in the bacck row again, and keep on learning. Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:07:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7106	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/26/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

Sometime in the '60's, I want to say around '64 or '65, they had a line of assembled WOODEN cars. They looked like nothing more than assembled Mainline kits (that same construction and some of the same prototypes.) I have a "trade Topics" review in MR somewhere I've been looking for for the last several days, if I can find it I'll try to scan it and post it. I didn't see the auction, but I know someone on another list who was considering bidding, and from his description I suspect that's what they are. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Shiel" <rshiel01@...> To: <vintageHO@...> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Pacific Traction H'lo All...yesterday a block of Pacific Traction freight cars went for (to me!) high bids on eB...I haven't been able to find anything on Pacific Traction other than a mention on Uncle Dave's website that they were an importer in the '67-'68 period. Does anyone have Pacific Traction boxcars/stock cars? Of what are they constructed? And any reason why they are hunted?? Jes' curious! Chrs, Russ And a PS to Sean...box of goodies arrived yesterday from you...if you hunted them at train shows, keep up the good work!! Impossible to get Down Under... Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7107	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

Hi everyone, I'm not sure that Pacific Traction produced anything. I believe they were a importer / distributor only. I have a brass Pioneer Zephyr 3 car unit train that they sold in the late 1960's. I believe the Zephyr was made by KMT (Japan), not sure, I would have to look that up. A little off the subject but, I thought for some time that the Nickel Plate Products (NPP) imported the same Zephyr model, however, I recently bought one of the NPP sets and see that one of the two models is out of scale. I don't know which one though.   Brian L.   In a message dated 8/26/2008 9:19:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rshiel01@... writes: H'lo All...yesterday a block of Pacific Traction freight cars went for (to me!) high bids on eB...I haven't been able to find anything on Pacific Traction other than a mention on Uncle Dave's website that they were an importer in the '67-'68 period. Does anyone have Pacific Traction boxcars/stock cars? Of what are they constructed? And any reason why they are hunted?? Jes' curious! Chrs, Russ   And a PS to Sean...box of goodies arrived yesterday from you...if you hunted them at train shows, keep up the good work!! Impossible to get Down Under... Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more. It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7108	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Well, Jim, That's exactly the diesel  I have............. It's good to see the paperwork that originally came with the model. I've long wondered if that plywood floor was original. Since you have that as well, It must be... In my model, the former owner started to drill out the left side window  with what looks like a 1/16 in drill-bit. He gave up after trying to drill about three holes. The cab end and the pilot ends are still loose on mine. I'm thinking of resistance soldering them on before they get lost. I'm missing the handrails for mine. Where those wire or something more exotic? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Aug 26, 2008, at 6:07 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7109	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Sean makes a point that seems to have gotten lost in the discussion, eBay is just another aspect of the digital revolution that also gives us Yahoo Groups like this one. Like it or not, eBay made collecting old HO possible for most of us and Yahoo Groups made sharing that knowledge much, much easier. I have enjoyed the discussion and reading all the perspectives. I used to do shows until eBay came along. But, when I am overseas in Europe (and end up there a lot with the military) I go to shows over there. In the UK and Germany, with a population density about four times that of the eastern USA, you can get to a show on any weekend between October and April with only a two-hour (or much less) drive. We just don't have that luxury in the USA and Sean's experience with jerk dealers and too-few customers are similar to my own. Ebay (now sadly in decline for us collectors) was the saving grace for many of us. I have to say, I love this group and all I learn. This is a bright and knowledgeable bunch! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > Just wanted to chime in... > > My following comments are not meant to disagree or offend anyone, so please take it that way.. It is just a different perspective from a younger collector & modeler. > > I know alot of you older gents like to remember the Good-ol-days of the many train shows and frown upon the advent of eBay and the resulting deminishing quantity and quality of the shows, but hear me out, please.. > > When you guys were in your prime (mid 30's) and frequenting these shows. You, as you have already stated, had your in's and secrets of how you were able to get in early and find the great deals.. > > I on the other hand, was young.. teens and/or pre-teens... I was one of those general public participants.. For me the train show was both a great experience as well as a sad experience.. In those days, there was little to no external pressure on dealers to keep their prices reasonable.. Sure, you guys knew where the deals were and how to get them, but I didn't. I loved trains, but put them away for nearly 20 years because the hobby was just too expensive for me. I di not get to enjoy it the way you did. > > Since the advent of Ebay, I have finally had exposure to some of the most fanastic pieces I have ever seen not to mention finally having access with the chance to buy,.. I am not saying that I am pro-ebay and against the shows.. I still love going to them and now have more money and am willing to spend more at the shows when I go. Honestly, I hat to see the shows go. I have found a few fellows I like to chat with and meet in person at the shows and it makes the experience even more enjoyable.. can't do that on ebay.. > > If it were not for my ebay experience, I would never have sold Don the C-Liner he now has.. I then would have never benn informed by a fellow ebay'r and VintageHO group member of the existance Don's discussion group.. I would have then therfore met and established what I believe and hope to be lasting relationships and friendships with some fellow members here on line over the past 3-4 years.. I believe now, especially since the fading existance due to profitability of the train shows..it is groups like this in conjunction with eBay that are actually keeping the hobby alive. These groups provide the comradery and access of the vital information that ebay or any other source can not provide and ebay has now become one of, if not the main source of the tangable items of which we discuss and desire.. > > I have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences both with the people I have met, spoken to or emailed concerning this hobby, both on line and off... For me, being both a buyer and seller on eBay has refired my passion for the hobby and I am now (finally in my prime) getting to experience the same level of enjoyment in it as you guys did in your "Good-ol-days". I never had those experiences, so I am unable to relate or miss them.. > > I did try selling at a show once here at the Monroeville expo mart.. After 1 day of prep, two days at the show and 1 day to clean up, I made less than I would have with 8 hours worth of work on ebay. I also found the venders were relentless in the morning before the show, wanting my best stuff cheap and the rest of the weekend was mainly "cherry pickers". I did not have stted price tags on all my items, but rather had people make me offers.. At the end, I had to reorganize about 2/3 of the stuff I had taken and pack it away again.. With ebay, onece i list it..it is gone, no matter what it sells for, I never have to see it again. > > Pertaining to the thoughts as to whether current prices are fair?? I am not sure what that means.. If both the buyer and seller agree on a price, then it is fair.. It does not depend on whether you are the buyer OR seller.. Mybe if one were used to getting an in on the items before they were brought to market, I could see where one might be disapointed that this acces no longer exists.. but it is fair to allow everyone acces.. For me, when I was young, model railroading felt like an exclusive club, of which I was not a menber.. I now no longer feel that way.. > > So, for me the change has been good... > > I am in no way here trying to start a debate or discussion of eBay vs Train shows... Just stating my perspective as I have experienced an remember it. I know some guys really hate eBay and all that it has brought about and I respect that, although I may not feel the same way. > > I hope this does not stir up any harsh debate or ill will. That is really not my intent.. > > Sean >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7110	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Matt, I am wondering why you say Ebay is "now in decline for us collectors"? It seems to me that Ebay has a steady supply of all types of HO models. It seems to me that as a collector, after you have acquired a certain item and are no longer searching for it, the remaining sought after items grow fewer and far between, making it seem like there is less available. I am an avid brass collector from the very first imports to the latest, and I have come to a point in my collecting that I keep seeing the same old stuff over and over again. I feel as if there is very little left that I am interested in. This is purely my perspective, I don't believe there is any more or any less being listed, in the brass category anyway. I believe that like most collectors, at a point, you try to refine your collection by selling off the lessor items and finding prime examples of your more prized items. There are two constants in life "death and taxes", some people seem to be able to avoid the tax part (not me) but since we all have to go sometime, all of our prize collections will, at some point, be sold off. Most likely in a forum like Ebay, thus starting the cycle all over again. Sorry to go off topic, Brian L   In a message dated 8/27/2008 6:20:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mattjcoleman@... writes: Sean makes a point that seems to have gotten lost in the discussion, eBay is just another aspect of the digital revolution that also gives us Yahoo Groups like this one. Like it or not, eBay made collecting old HO possible for most of us and Yahoo Groups made sharing that knowledge much, much easier. I have enjoyed the discussion and reading all the perspectives. I used to do shows until eBay came along. But, when I am overseas in Europe (and end up there a lot with the military) I go to shows over there. In the UK and Germany, with a population density about four times that of the eastern USA, you can get to a show on any weekend between October and April with only a two-hour (or much less) drive. We just don't have that luxury in the USA and Sean's experience with jerk dealers and too-few customers are similar to my own. Ebay (now sadly in decline for us collectors) was the saving grace for many of us. I have to say, I love this group and all I learn. This is a bright and knowledgeable bunch! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > Just wanted to chime in... > > My following comments are not meant to disagree or offend anyone, so please take it that way.. It is just a different perspective from a younger collector & modeler. > > I know alot of you older gents like to remember the Good-ol-days of the many train shows and frown upon the advent of eBay and the resulting deminishing quantity and quality of the shows, but hear me out, please.. > > When you guys were in your prime (mid 30's) and frequenting these shows. You, as you have already stated, had your in's and secrets of how you were able to get in early and find the great deals.. > > I on the other hand, was young.. teens and/or pre-teens... I was one of those general public participants. . For me the train show was both a great experience as well as a sad experience.. In those days, there was little to no external pressure on dealers to keep their prices reasonable.. Sure, you guys knew where the deals were and how to get them, but I didn't. I loved trains, but put them away for nearly 20 years because the hobby was just too expensive for me. I di not get to enjoy it the way you did. > > Since the advent of Ebay, I have finally had exposure to some of the most fanastic pieces I have ever seen not to mention finally having access with the chance to buy,.. I am not saying that I am pro-ebay and against the shows.. I still love going to them and now have more money and am willing to spend more at the shows when I go. Honestly, I hat to see the shows go. I have found a few fellows I like to chat with and meet in person at the shows and it makes the experience even more enjoyable.. can't do that on ebay.. > > If it were not for my ebay experience, I would never have sold Don the C-Liner he now has.. I then would have never benn informed by a fellow ebay'r and VintageHO group member of the existance Don's discussion group.. I would have then therfore met and established what I believe and hope to be lasting relationships and friendships with some fellow members here on line over the past 3-4 years.. I believe now, especially since the fading existance due to profitability of the train shows..it is groups like this in conjunction with eBay that are actually keeping the hobby alive. These groups provide the comradery and access of the vital information that ebay or any other source can not provide and ebay has now become one of, if not the main source of the tangable items of which we discuss and desire.. > > I have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences both with the people I have met, spoken to or emailed concerning this hobby, both on line and off... For me, being both a buyer and seller on eBay has refired my passion for the hobby and I am now (finally in my prime) getting to experience the same level of enjoyment in it as you guys did in your "Good-ol-days" . I never had those experiences, so I am unable to relate or miss them.. > > I did try selling at a show once here at the Monroeville expo mart.. After 1 day of prep, two days at the show and 1 day to clean up, I made less than I would have with 8 hours worth of work on ebay. I also found the venders were relentless in the morning before the show, wanting my best stuff cheap and the rest of the weekend was mainly "cherry pickers". I did not have stted price tags on all my items, but rather had people make me offers.. At the end, I had to reorganize about 2/3 of the stuff I had taken and pack it away again.. With ebay, onece i list it..it is gone, no matter what it sells for, I never have to see it again. > > Pertaining to the thoughts as to whether current prices are fair?? I am not sure what that means.. If both the buyer and seller agree on a price, then it is fair.. It does not depend on whether you are the buyer OR seller.. Mybe if one were used to getting an in on the items before they were brought to market, I could see where one might be disapointed that this acces no longer exists.. but it is fair to allow everyone acces.. For me, when I was young, model railroading felt like an exclusive club, of which I was not a menber.. I now no longer feel that way.. > > So, for me the change has been good... > > I am in no way here trying to start a debate or discussion of eBay vs Train shows... Just stating my perspective as I have experienced an remember it. I know some guys really hate eBay and all that it has brought about and I respect that, although I may not feel the same way. > > I hope this does not stir up any harsh debate or ill will. That is really not my intent.. > > Sean > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7111	From: oljoeoh	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

That motor looks a lot like a Pittman DC-60. Can't believe that little motor would haul all of that weight for long if it is a DC-60. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote: > > Jim, I've sent these pictures to confirm what looks like a Garco Baldwin switcher to me, now that I've seen it up close it's a lot rougher than I remembered, but it did run at least once for me before the rubber tubing failed, so it certainly pulls its own weight! I don't ever plan to clean the crud/patina off, but i might replace the tubing, the fabric insulation looks ok for now. I learned about GARCO switchers from searching online for heavy cast switchers that could pull on grades, and the few mentions of this model made it sound like it was the heaviest switcher shell anyone could remember. I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine. Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier. > > My story is similar to his, I'm almost retired, and finally building the dream layout, and bashing all metal engines that will pull all metal vintage freight consists up steep grades... > > I window shopped at shows for decades, but couldn't learn enough to buy smart so I held back. Once the online groups started sharing information, and I spent a few years just windowshopping on ebay too, I was able to cherrypick on ebay myself, for example, I had a lot of fun buying hobbytown drives in plastic shells that were not identified as hobbytowns in the listings. It's the ebay equivalent of getting into the shows and under the tables early. > > I am grateful for the knowledge shared by the senior members of this group, and I hope to sit back down in the bacck row again, and keep on learning. > > Chris Brannigan > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:07:49 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures > > > Hi All, > > I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW > Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine > is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be > one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The > raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with > no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try > to open them even with a milling machine. > > I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It > shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the > Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems > that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price > varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff. > > I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and > since a collection piece that's OK with me. > Hope these pictures of engine, box and > paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not > good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be > able to see address and phone number on the paperwork. > > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7112	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Just wait!    You'll see...I'm gona live forever.. !   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, bslook@... <bslook@...> wrote: From: bslook@... <bslook@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 7:19 AM Hi Matt, I am wondering why you say Ebay is "now in decline for us collectors"? It seems to me that Ebay has a steady supply of all types of HO models. It seems to me that as a collector, after you have acquired a certain item and are no longer searching for it, the remaining sought after items grow fewer and far between, making it seem like there is less available. I am an avid brass collector from the very first imports to the latest, and I have come to a point in my collecting that I keep seeing the same old stuff over and over again. I feel as if there is very little left that I am interested in. This is purely my perspective, I don't believe there is any more or any less being listed, in the brass category anyway. I believe that like most collectors, at a point, you try to refine your collection by selling off the lessor items and finding prime examples of your more prized items. There are two constants in life "death and taxes", some people seem to be able to avoid the tax part (not me) but since we all have to go sometime, all of our prize collections will, at some point, be sold off. Most likely in a forum like Ebay, thus starting the cycle all over again. Sorry to go off topic, Brian L   In a message dated 8/27/2008 6:20:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mattjcoleman@ aim.com writes: Sean makes a point that seems to have gotten lost in the discussion, eBay is just another aspect of the digital revolution that also gives us Yahoo Groups like this one. Like it or not, eBay made collecting old HO possible for most of us and Yahoo Groups made sharing that knowledge much, much easier. I have enjoyed the discussion and reading all the perspectives. I used to do shows until eBay came along. But, when I am overseas in Europe (and end up there a lot with the military) I go to shows over there. In the UK and Germany, with a population density about four times that of the eastern USA, you can get to a show on any weekend between October and April with only a two-hour (or much less) drive. We just don't have that luxury in the USA and Sean's experience with jerk dealers and too-few customers are similar to my own. Ebay (now sadly in decline for us collectors) was the saving grace for many of us. I have to say, I love this group and all I learn. This is a bright and knowledgeable bunch! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > Just wanted to chime in... > > My following comments are not meant to disagree or offend anyone, so please take it that way.. It is just a different perspective from a younger collector & modeler. > > I know alot of you older gents like to remember the Good-ol-days of the many train shows and frown upon the advent of eBay and the resulting deminishing quantity and quality of the shows, but hear me out, please.. > > When you guys were in your prime (mid 30's) and frequenting these shows. You, as you have already stated, had your in's and secrets of how you were able to get in early and find the great deals.. > > I on the other hand, was young.. teens and/or pre-teens... I was one of those general public participants. . For me the train show was both a great experience as well as a sad experience.. In those days, there was little to no external pressure on dealers to keep their prices reasonable.. Sure, you guys knew where the deals were and how to get them, but I didn't. I loved trains, but put them away for nearly 20 years because the hobby was just too expensive for me. I di not get to enjoy it the way you did. > > Since the advent of Ebay, I have finally had exposure to some of the most fanastic pieces I have ever seen not to mention finally having access with the chance to buy,.. I am not saying that I am pro-ebay and against the shows.. I still love going to them and now have more money and am willing to spend more at the shows when I go. Honestly, I hat to see the shows go. I have found a few fellows I like to chat with and meet in person at the shows and it makes the experience even more enjoyable.. can't do that on ebay.. > > If it were not for my ebay experience, I would never have sold Don the C-Liner he now has.. I then would have never benn informed by a fellow ebay'r and VintageHO group member of the existance Don's discussion group.. I would have then therfore met and established what I believe and hope to be lasting relationships and friendships with some fellow members here on line over the past 3-4 years.. I believe now, especially since the fading existance due to profitability of the train shows..it is groups like this in conjunction with eBay that are actually keeping the hobby alive. These groups provide the comradery and access of the vital information that ebay or any other source can not provide and ebay has now become one of, if not the main source of the tangable items of which we discuss and desire.. > > I have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences both with the people I have met, spoken to or emailed concerning this hobby, both on line and off... For me, being both a buyer and seller on eBay has refired my passion for the hobby and I am now (finally in my prime) getting to experience the same level of enjoyment in it as you guys did in your "Good-ol-days" . I never had those experiences, so I am unable to relate or miss them.. > > I did try selling at a show once here at the Monroeville expo mart.. After 1 day of prep, two days at the show and 1 day to clean up, I made less than I would have with 8 hours worth of work on ebay. I also found the venders were relentless in the morning before the show, wanting my best stuff cheap and the rest of the weekend was mainly "cherry pickers". I did not have stted price tags on all my items, but rather had people make me offers.. At the end, I had to reorganize about 2/3 of the stuff I had taken and pack it away again.. With ebay, onece i list it..it is gone, no matter what it sells for, I never have to see it again. > > Pertaining to the thoughts as to whether current prices are fair?? I am not sure what that means.. If both the buyer and seller agree on a price, then it is fair.. It does not depend on whether you are the buyer OR seller.. Mybe if one were used to getting an in on the items before they were brought to market, I could see where one might be disapointed that this acces no longer exists.. but it is fair to allow everyone acces.. For me, when I was young, model railroading felt like an exclusive club, of which I was not a menber.. I now no longer feel that way.. > > So, for me the change has been good... > > I am in no way here trying to start a debate or discussion of eBay vs Train shows... Just stating my perspective as I have experienced an remember it. I know some guys really hate eBay and all that it has brought about and I respect that, although I may not feel the same way. > > I hope this does not stir up any harsh debate or ill will. That is really not my intent.. > > Sean > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7113	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

....yesterday a block of Pacific Traction freight cars went for (to  me!)high bids on eB... If memory serves, Pacific Traction was the same as Suydam.  JP Barger in Boston is the expert on this thread. Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7114	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Gimme some of what your having! LOL   In a message dated 8/27/2008 8:19:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a69mustang4me@... writes: Just wait!    You'll see...I'm gona live forever.. !   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, bslook@... <bslook@...> wrote: From: bslook@... <bslook@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 7:19 AM Hi Matt, I am wondering why you say Ebay is "now in decline for us collectors"? It seems to me that Ebay has a steady supply of all types of HO models. It seems to me that as a collector, after you have acquired a certain item and are no longer searching for it, the remaining sought after items grow fewer and far between, making it seem like there is less available. I am an avid brass collector from the very first imports to the latest, and I have come to a point in my collecting that I keep seeing the same old stuff over and over again. I feel as if there is very little left that I am interested in. This is purely my perspective, I don't believe there is any more or any less being listed, in the brass category anyway. I believe that like most collectors, at a point, you try to refine your collection by selling off the lessor items and finding prime examples of your more prized items. There are two constants in life "death and taxes", some people seem to be able to avoid the tax part (not me) but since we all have to go sometime, all of our prize collections will, at some point, be sold off. Most likely in a forum like Ebay, thus starting the cycle all over again. Sorry to go off topic, Brian L   In a message dated 8/27/2008 6:20:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mattjcoleman@ aim.com writes: Sean makes a point that seems to have gotten lost in the discussion, eBay is just another aspect of the digital revolution that also gives us Yahoo Groups like this one. Like it or not, eBay made collecting old HO possible for most of us and Yahoo Groups made sharing that knowledge much, much easier. I have enjoyed the discussion and reading all the perspectives. I used to do shows until eBay came along. But, when I am overseas in Europe (and end up there a lot with the military) I go to shows over there. In the UK and Germany, with a population density about four times that of the eastern USA, you can get to a show on any weekend between October and April with only a two-hour (or much less) drive. We just don't have that luxury in the USA and Sean's experience with jerk dealers and too-few customers are similar to my own. Ebay (now sadly in decline for us collectors) was the saving grace for many of us. I have to say, I love this group and all I learn. This is a bright and knowledgeable bunch! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > Just wanted to chime in... > > My following comments are not meant to disagree or offend anyone, so please take it that way.. It is just a different perspective from a younger collector & modeler. > > I know alot of you older gents like to remember the Good-ol-days of the many train shows and frown upon the advent of eBay and the resulting deminishing quantity and quality of the shows, but hear me out, please.. > > When you guys were in your prime (mid 30's) and frequenting these shows. You, as you have already stated, had your in's and secrets of how you were able to get in early and find the great deals.. > > I on the other hand, was young.. teens and/or pre-teens... I was one of those general public participants. . For me the train show was both a great experience as well as a sad experience.. In those days, there was little to no external pressure on dealers to keep their prices reasonable.. Sure, you guys knew where the deals were and how to get them, but I didn't. I loved trains, but put them away for nearly 20 years because the hobby was just too expensive for me. I di not get to enjoy it the way you did. > > Since the advent of Ebay, I have finally had exposure to some of the most fanastic pieces I have ever seen not to mention finally having access with the chance to buy,.. I am not saying that I am pro-ebay and against the shows.. I still love going to them and now have more money and am willing to spend more at the shows when I go. Honestly, I hat to see the shows go. I have found a few fellows I like to chat with and meet in person at the shows and it makes the experience even more enjoyable.. can't do that on ebay.. > > If it were not for my ebay experience, I would never have sold Don the C-Liner he now has.. I then would have never benn informed by a fellow ebay'r and VintageHO group member of the existance Don's discussion group.. I would have then therfore met and established what I believe and hope to be lasting relationships and friendships with some fellow members here on line over the past 3-4 years.. I believe now, especially since the fading existance due to profitability of the train shows..it is groups like this in conjunction with eBay that are actually keeping the hobby alive. These groups provide the comradery and access of the vital information that ebay or any other source can not provide and ebay has now become one of, if not the main source of the tangable items of which we discuss and desire.. > > I have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences both with the people I have met, spoken to or emailed concerning this hobby, both on line and off... For me, being both a buyer and seller on eBay has refired my passion for the hobby and I am now (finally in my prime) getting to experience the same level of enjoyment in it as you guys did in your "Good-ol-days" . I never had those experiences, so I am unable to relate or miss them.. > > I did try selling at a show once here at the Monroeville expo mart.. After 1 day of prep, two days at the show and 1 day to clean up, I made less than I would have with 8 hours worth of work on ebay. I also found the venders were relentless in the morning before the show, wanting my best stuff cheap and the rest of the weekend was mainly "cherry pickers". I did not have stted price tags on all my items, but rather had people make me offers.. At the end, I had to reorganize about 2/3 of the stuff I had taken and pack it away again.. With ebay, onece i list it..it is gone, no matter what it sells for, I never have to see it again. > > Pertaining to the thoughts as to whether current prices are fair?? I am not sure what that means.. If both the buyer and seller agree on a price, then it is fair.. It does not depend on whether you are the buyer OR seller.. Mybe if one were used to getting an in on the items before they were brought to market, I could see where one might be disapointed that this acces no longer exists.. but it is fair to allow everyone acces.. For me, when I was young, model railroading felt like an exclusive club, of which I was not a menber.. I now no longer feel that way.. > > So, for me the change has been good... > > I am in no way here trying to start a debate or discussion of eBay vs Train shows... Just stating my perspective as I have experienced an remember it. I know some guys really hate eBay and all that it has brought about and I respect that, although I may not feel the same way. > > I hope this does not stir up any harsh debate or ill will. That is really not my intent.. > > Sean > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7115	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Joe,        One of the motors used is a DC-60. In a sheet I sent yesterday with the pictures it shows 3 variations, One a DC-60 with single truck drive, one a DC-71 motor with single truck drive and one a double truck drive with DC-71 motor. My price list shows depending on what you got different prices.  It is a very heavy engine and your observation about the DC-60 motor handling is probable right. I'll send a copy of the price sheet today if time permits.                       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: oljoeoh To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Garco Engine Pictures That motor looks a lot like a Pittman DC-60. Can't believe that little motor would haul all of that weight for long if it is a DC-60. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote: > > Jim, I've sent these pictures to confirm what looks like a Garco Baldwin switcher to me, now that I've seen it up close it's a lot rougher than I remembered, but it did run at least once for me before the rubber tubing failed, so it certainly pulls its own weight! I don't ever plan to clean the crud/patina off, but i might replace the tubing, the fabric insulation looks ok for now. I learned about GARCO switchers from searching online for heavy cast switchers that could pull on grades, and the few mentions of this model made it sound like it was the heaviest switcher shell anyone could remember. I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine. Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier. > > My story is similar to his, I'm almost retired, and finally building the dream layout, and bashing all metal engines that will pull all metal vintage freight consists up steep grades... > > I window shopped at shows for decades, but couldn't learn enough to buy smart so I held back. Once the online groups started sharing information, and I spent a few years just windowshopping on ebay too, I was able to cherrypick on ebay myself, for example, I had a lot of fun buying hobbytown drives in plastic shells that were not identified as hobbytowns in the listings. It's the ebay equivalent of getting into the shows and under the tables early. > > I am grateful for the knowledge shared by the senior members of this group, and I hope to sit back down in the bacck row again, and keep on learning. > > Chris Brannigan > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@... > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:07:49 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures > > > Hi All, > > I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW > Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine > is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be > one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The > raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with > no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try > to open them even with a milling machine. > > I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It > shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the > Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems > that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price > varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff. > > I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and > since a collection piece that's OK with me. > Hope these pictures of engine, box and > paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not > good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be > able to see address and phone number on the paperwork. > > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7116	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Mike ,                                              Glad we could confirm your engine. According to the plans and my engine that piece of plywood for the floor was normal.    As for the loose ends maybe resistance soldering can work.My example has some clear glue or epoxy holding them onwhich you can see on the inside. Came that way. Can't say what is normal.                As for the wire.My engine has 3 6 inch pieces of a copper or brass wire with it. I haven't miked it but looks like .020 wire used for handrail material. You formed you're own handrail's                                                       Regards         Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:19 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Well, Jim, That's exactly the diesel  I have........ ..... It's good to see the paperwork that originally came with the model. I've long wondered if that plywood floor was original. Since you have that as well, It must be... In my model, the former owner started to drill out the left side window  with what looks like a 1/16 in drill-bit. He gave up after trying to drill about three holes. The cab end and the pilot ends are still loose on mine. I'm thinking of resistance soldering them on before they get lost. I'm missing the handrails for mine. Where those wire or something more exotic? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Aug 26, 2008, at 6:07 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7117	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Chris,          Glad we could help. Don't sit back entirely. You or others might have that one bit of information that we all can use in trying to piece together the history of HO.         I think you have confirmed that your engine is GARCO and hopefully the group has provided you with new information. As for what you plan to do with it is your decision.          I do have to ask you a favor. I had to delete a LOT from my mailbox. Unfortunately I deleted some wrong things. One was the pictures of the 6 wheel, pulley driven, brass trucks with flywheel you sent me. If you can please send at least on of them again. If you want to send it off list send to jimheck@....  Still looking around to see if I can match.                                                                       Have a good one.                          Jim            ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Jim, I've sent these pictures to confirm what looks like a Garco Baldwin switcher to me, now that I've seen it up close  it's a lot rougher than I remembered, but it did run at least once for me before the rubber tubing failed, so it certainly pulls its own weight!  I don't ever plan to clean the crud/patina off, but i might replace the tubing, the fabric insulation looks ok for now.  I learned about GARCO switchers from searching online for heavy cast switchers that could pull on grades, and the few mentions of this model made it sound like it was the heaviest switcher shell anyone could remember.  I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine.  Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier. My story is similar to his, I'm almost retired, and finally building the dream layout, and bashing all metal engines that will pull all metal vintage freight consists up steep grades... I window shopped at shows for decades, but couldn't learn enough to buy smart so I held back.  Once the online groups started sharing information, and I spent a few years just windowshopping on ebay too, I was able to cherrypick on ebay myself, for example, I had a lot of fun buying hobbytown drives in plastic shells that were not identified as hobbytowns in the listings.  It's the ebay equivalent of getting into the shows and under the tables early. I am grateful for the knowledge shared by the senior members of this group, and I hope to sit back down in the bacck row again, and keep on learning. Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:07:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7118	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Last of Garco paper

Attachments :                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7119	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Attachments : Sure thing Jim, here it is.  I posted a smaller version in a new GARCO switcher album on the site, I hope that's ok.  I would have liked to add smaller versions of the other pix you sent of the engine and the paperwork to that album, so they are all in one place, but only if it's ok with all concerned.   I've also got the plywood floor, not phenolic as I mis-remembered, and also I agree it is the smalles Pittman motor listed in your paperwork.  It might not last long pulling any loads other than the shell, or at any speed, but the way that beast crawled the one time I cranked it up, as long as I don't pull anything or let it overheat, I think it will last as long as the old blue-flame 6 in my '47 GMC 3/4 ton did (that is, forever so far! <g>   Chris  ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:09:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Chris,          Glad we could help. Don't sit back entirely. You or others might have that one bit of information that we all can use in trying to piece together the history of HO.         I think you have confirmed that your engine is GARCO and hopefully the group has provided you with new information. As for what you plan to do with it is your decision.          I do have to ask you a favor. I had to delete a LOT from my mailbox. Unfortunately I deleted some wrong things. One was the pictures of the 6 wheel, pulley driven, brass trucks with flywheel you sent me. If you can please send at least on of them again. If you want to send it off list send to jimheck@losch. net.  Still looking around to see if I can match.                                                                       Have a good one.                          Jim            ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Jim, I've sent these pictures to confirm what looks like a Garco Baldwin switcher to me, now that I've seen it up close  it's a lot rougher than I remembered, but it did run at least once for me before the rubber tubing failed, so it certainly pulls its own weight!  I don't ever plan to clean the crud/patina off, but i might replace the tubing, the fabric insulation looks ok for now.  I learned about GARCO switchers from searching online for heavy cast switchers that could pull on grades, and the few mentions of this model made it sound like it was the heaviest switcher shell anyone could remember.  I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine.  Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier. My story is similar to his, I'm almost retired, and finally building the dream layout, and bashing all metal engines that will pull all metal vintage freight consists up steep grades... I window shopped at shows for decades, but couldn't learn enough to buy smart so I held back.  Once the online groups started sharing information, and I spent a few years just windowshopping on ebay too, I was able to cherrypick on ebay myself, for example, I had a lot of fun buying hobbytown drives in plastic shells that were not identified as hobbytowns in the listings.  It's the ebay equivalent of getting into the shows and under the tables early. I am grateful for the knowledge shared by the senior members of this group, and I hope to sit back down in the bacck row again, and keep on learning. Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:07:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7120	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Hey Chris,   Those trucks look awfully familiar to me.. Especially the base they are sitting on. I know that base is sitting at home on my counter and it also seems as if I may have sold the trucks to you.. So, you believe them to be Garco??  or is jim just trying to help you determine the maker..?   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 9:28 AM Sure thing Jim, here it is.  I posted a smaller version in a new GARCO switcher album on the site, I hope that's ok.  I would have liked to add smaller versions of the other pix you sent of the engine and the paperwork to that album, so they are all in one place, but only if it's ok with all concerned.   I've also got the plywood floor, not phenolic as I mis-remembered, and also I agree it is the smalles Pittman motor listed in your paperwork.  It might not last long pulling any loads other than the shell, or at any speed, but the way that beast crawled the one time I cranked it up, as long as I don't pull anything or let it overheat, I think it will last as long as the old blue-flame 6 in my '47 GMC 3/4 ton did (that is, forever so far! <g>   Chris  ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:09:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Chris,          Glad we could help. Don't sit back entirely. You or others might have that one bit of information that we all can use in trying to piece together the history of HO.         I think you have confirmed that your engine is GARCO and hopefully the group has provided you with new information. As for what you plan to do with it is your decision.          I do have to ask you a favor. I had to delete a LOT from my mailbox. Unfortunately I deleted some wrong things. One was the pictures of the 6 wheel, pulley driven, brass trucks with flywheel you sent me. If you can please send at least on of them again. If you want to send it off list send to jimheck@losch. net.  Still looking around to see if I can match.                                                                       Have a good one.                          Jim            ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Jim, I've sent these pictures to confirm what looks like a Garco Baldwin switcher to me, now that I've seen it up close  it's a lot rougher than I remembered, but it did run at least once for me before the rubber tubing failed, so it certainly pulls its own weight!  I don't ever plan to clean the crud/patina off, but i might replace the tubing, the fabric insulation looks ok for now.  I learned about GARCO switchers from searching online for heavy cast switchers that could pull on grades, and the few mentions of this model made it sound like it was the heaviest switcher shell anyone could remember.  I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine.  Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier. My story is similar to his, I'm almost retired, and finally building the dream layout, and bashing all metal engines that will pull all metal vintage freight consists up steep grades... I window shopped at shows for decades, but couldn't learn enough to buy smart so I held back.  Once the online groups started sharing information, and I spent a few years just windowshopping on ebay too, I was able to cherrypick on ebay myself, for example, I had a lot of fun buying hobbytown drives in plastic shells that were not identified as hobbytowns in the listings.  It's the ebay equivalent of getting into the shows and under the tables early. I am grateful for the knowledge shared by the senior members of this group, and I hope to sit back down in the bacck row again, and keep on learning. Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:07:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7121	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Attachments : Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:19:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7122	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Hi Chris,   There are no screw holes in the sides of Jim's sideframes as there are 2 in each side of yours.. other than that, they look very close..   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 9:45 AM Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:19:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7123	From: commodore_vanderberry	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Wow, Sean, I hope I live long enough to learn to express myself so well!! To me, eBay is a "Global Garage Sale". I can see other people's stuff and NOT have to travel all over the world to see it. I have to say that I would love to be able to do the show circuit...seems I waited a few years to long to get into the hobby. :-( I think the biggest problem on eBay are the buyers more often than the sellers. Sure, sometimes a seller asks WAY too much for their item, but those always end up either relisting at a lower price, or keeping their item. But once a decent piece goes up for auction sometimes it seems the crazies come out to bid. I watched a Rivarossi 4-4-0, which dozens had been consistently selling for around $30 including postage over the previous and successive weeks, sell for over $120 once...I kept laughing and laughing and laughing...that was when I decided that, for me, it was the buyers who pay waaay too much for an item that price some of these things out of our reach. I have mixed feelings about that. I wish everyone on eBay could be as educated about the value of HO as those of us here on this group. That way many items would still be in range for at least bidding on. [[For the record, much of what I know about vintage HO comes from this group (don't be mistaken; "much" = "all"), including relative values.]] On the other hand, if someone wants to pay 5 times more for an item than it's usually worth, well, I guess to me that's another form of "stupid tax", and at least the "competition" has drained their coffers by that much more and hopefully won't be able to compete on the next one. ;-) The ones that really get me aren't the $100+ auctions for a $30 locomotive...no, the ones that really get me are the $100+ items that go for $30. I ALWAYS miss those...then I gotta take a couple days off and spend it in therapy just to be able to see straight again... ;-) Anyway, I sure have enjoyed my association with you all. I cannot convey to you how much I appreciate and enjoy a civil group focused on common interests that politely exchanges information. (sniff, sniff) You've all made me a better man (sniff, sniff) I model Birth of Steam, but doggone it...now I want to go out and get an 0-4-0 and make something of it... Anyway, thanks for listening. Regards, Ken (Commodore Vander) Berry In the Rocky Mountain West Modeling the Birth of Steam ...--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: <snip> > Since the advent of Ebay, I have finally had exposure to some of the most fanastic pieces I have ever seen not to mention finally having access with the chance to buy,.. I am not saying that I am pro- ebay and against the shows.. I still love going to them and now have more money and am willing to spend more at the shows when I go. Honestly, I hat to see the shows go. I have found a few fellows I like to chat with and meet in person at the shows and it makes the experience even more enjoyable.. can't do that on ebay.. <snip> > I have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences both with the people I have met, spoken to or emailed concerning this hobby, both on line and off... For me, being both a buyer and seller on eBay has refired my passion for the hobby and I am now (finally in my prime) getting to experience the same level of enjoyment in it as you guys did in your "Good-ol-days". I never had those experiences, so I am unable to relate or miss them.. <snip> > Pertaining to the thoughts as to whether current prices are fair?? I am not sure what that means.. If both the buyer and seller agree on a price, then it is fair.. It does not depend on whether you are the buyer OR seller.. Mybe if one were used to getting an in on the items before they were brought to market, I could see where one might be disapointed that this acces no longer exists.. but it is fair to allow everyone acces.. For me, when I was young, model railroading felt like an exclusive club, of which I was not a menber.. I now no longer feel that way.. >   > So, for me the change has been good... <snip>   > I hope this does not stir up any harsh debate or ill will. That is really not my intent..

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7124	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Hey Sean, yup, you're the guilty party.  I already outed you in a previous email about the switcher.   " I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine.  Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier." I don't think the 6 wheel trucks are Garco, I thought they might be M&H, but now I"m not sure.  I"m open to any opinions, but Jim might already have the answer, I'll stay tuned.   Also, I have to get those loose bits (sideframes, pilots, and cab ends) out of the parts bin and see how they match.  I do thing THEY might be Garco parts for the BW switcher.  You don't still have the photo of them handy, do you?  I remember one of the two cab ends had the windows open, but cast that way, not cut out.   Chris   ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:44:08 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hey Chris,   Those trucks look awfully familiar to me.. Especially the base they are sitting on. I know that base is sitting at home on my counter and it also seems as if I may have sold the trucks to you.. So, you believe them to be Garco??  or is jim just trying to help you determine the maker..?   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 9:28 AM Sure thing Jim, here it is.  I posted a smaller version in a new GARCO switcher album on the site, I hope that's ok.  I would have liked to add smaller versions of the other pix you sent of the engine and the paperwork to that album, so they are all in one place, but only if it's ok with all concerned.   I've also got the plywood floor, not phenolic as I mis-remembered, and also I agree it is the smalles Pittman motor listed in your paperwork.  It might not last long pulling any loads other than the shell, or at any speed, but the way that beast crawled the one time I cranked it up, as long as I don't pull anything or let it overheat, I think it will last as long as the old blue-flame 6 in my '47 GMC 3/4 ton did (that is, forever so far! <g>   Chris  ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:09:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Chris,          Glad we could help. Don't sit back entirely. You or others might have that one bit of information that we all can use in trying to piece together the history of HO.         I think you have confirmed that your engine is GARCO and hopefully the group has provided you with new information. As for what you plan to do with it is your decision.          I do have to ask you a favor. I had to delete a LOT from my mailbox. Unfortunately I deleted some wrong things. One was the pictures of the 6 wheel, pulley driven, brass trucks with flywheel you sent me. If you can please send at least on of them again. If you want to send it off list send to jimheck@losch. net.  Still looking around to see if I can match.                                                                       Have a good one.                          Jim            ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Jim, I've sent these pictures to confirm what looks like a Garco Baldwin switcher to me, now that I've seen it up close  it's a lot rougher than I remembered, but it did run at least once for me before the rubber tubing failed, so it certainly pulls its own weight!  I don't ever plan to clean the crud/patina off, but i might replace the tubing, the fabric insulation looks ok for now.  I learned about GARCO switchers from searching online for heavy cast switchers that could pull on grades, and the few mentions of this model made it sound like it was the heaviest switcher shell anyone could remember.  I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine.  Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier. My story is similar to his, I'm almost retired, and finally building the dream layout, and bashing all metal engines that will pull all metal vintage freight consists up steep grades... I window shopped at shows for decades, but couldn't learn enough to buy smart so I held back.  Once the online groups started sharing information, and I spent a few years just windowshopping on ebay too, I was able to cherrypick on ebay myself, for example, I had a lot of fun buying hobbytown drives in plastic shells that were not identified as hobbytowns in the listings.  It's the ebay equivalent of getting into the shows and under the tables early. I am grateful for the knowledge shared by the senior members of this group, and I hope to sit back down in the bacck row again, and keep on learning. Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:07:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7125	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

I'll have to open them up again and see if the screw holes look like they were added, or if it looks like the frames were cast with holes.  may not be possible to tell, but if the holes show a cast in counter sink or edge, then even if the holes are drilled through, they might be original. ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:54:43 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Hi Chris,   There are no screw holes in the sides of Jim's sideframes as there are 2 in each side of yours.. other than that, they look very close..   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 9:45 AM Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:19:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7126	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Chris,          Feel free to post anything I send in an album. Keep it, use it. I hold no patents on the info. Just like sharing. Another member (Chuck H) is posting all I send in an album for me. Thanks to him for that as creating that album and entering to it is a pain (to dumb to create,paste,copy, post, etc.) I have done it this way,sending direct to the membership for all to view and do with it what you want. A friend and member in Austria, Gerold, first ask and I have no problem doing it. Got your pictures and will check out ASAP.                        Have a good one            Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Sure thing Jim, here it is.  I posted a smaller version in a new GARCO switcher album on the site, I hope that's ok.  I would have liked to add smaller versions of the other pix you sent of the engine and the paperwork to that album, so they are all in one place, but only if it's ok with all concerned.   I've also got the plywood floor, not phenolic as I mis-remembered, and also I agree it is the smalles Pittman motor listed in your paperwork.  It might not last long pulling any loads other than the shell, or at any speed, but the way that beast crawled the one time I cranked it up, as long as I don't pull anything or let it overheat, I think it will last as long as the old blue-flame 6 in my '47 GMC 3/4 ton did (that is, forever so far! <g>   Chris  ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:09:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Chris,          Glad we could help. Don't sit back entirely. You or others might have that one bit of information that we all can use in trying to piece together the history of HO.         I think you have confirmed that your engine is GARCO and hopefully the group has provided you with new information. As for what you plan to do with it is your decision.          I do have to ask you a favor. I had to delete a LOT from my mailbox. Unfortunately I deleted some wrong things. One was the pictures of the 6 wheel, pulley driven, brass trucks with flywheel you sent me. If you can please send at least on of them again. If you want to send it off list send to jimheck@losch. net.  Still looking around to see if I can match.                                                                       Have a good one.                          Jim            ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Jim, I've sent these pictures to confirm what looks like a Garco Baldwin switcher to me, now that I've seen it up close  it's a lot rougher than I remembered, but it did run at least once for me before the rubber tubing failed, so it certainly pulls its own weight!  I don't ever plan to clean the crud/patina off, but i might replace the tubing, the fabric insulation looks ok for now.  I learned about GARCO switchers from searching online for heavy cast switchers that could pull on grades, and the few mentions of this model made it sound like it was the heaviest switcher shell anyone could remember.  I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine.  Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier. My story is similar to his, I'm almost retired, and finally building the dream layout, and bashing all metal engines that will pull all metal vintage freight consists up steep grades... I window shopped at shows for decades, but couldn't learn enough to buy smart so I held back.  Once the online groups started sharing information, and I spent a few years just windowshopping on ebay too, I was able to cherrypick on ebay myself, for example, I had a lot of fun buying hobbytown drives in plastic shells that were not identified as hobbytowns in the listings.  It's the ebay equivalent of getting into the shows and under the tables early. I am grateful for the knowledge shared by the senior members of this group, and I hope to sit back down in the bacck row again, and keep on learning. Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:07:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7127	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Chris, I am sure i have the pics of the pieces handy on my home computer...   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 10:46 AM Hey Sean, yup, you're the guilty party.  I already outed you in a previous email about the switcher.   " I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine.  Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier." I don't think the 6 wheel trucks are Garco, I thought they might be M&H, but now I"m not sure.  I"m open to any opinions, but Jim might already have the answer, I'll stay tuned.   Also, I have to get those loose bits (sideframes, pilots, and cab ends) out of the parts bin and see how they match.  I do thing THEY might be Garco parts for the BW switcher.  You don't still have the photo of them handy, do you?  I remember one of the two cab ends had the windows open, but cast that way, not cut out.   Chris   ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:44:08 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hey Chris,   Those trucks look awfully familiar to me.. Especially the base they are sitting on. I know that base is sitting at home on my counter and it also seems as if I may have sold the trucks to you.. So, you believe them to be Garco??  or is jim just trying to help you determine the maker..?   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 9:28 AM Sure thing Jim, here it is.  I posted a smaller version in a new GARCO switcher album on the site, I hope that's ok.  I would have liked to add smaller versions of the other pix you sent of the engine and the paperwork to that album, so they are all in one place, but only if it's ok with all concerned.   I've also got the plywood floor, not phenolic as I mis-remembered, and also I agree it is the smalles Pittman motor listed in your paperwork.  It might not last long pulling any loads other than the shell, or at any speed, but the way that beast crawled the one time I cranked it up, as long as I don't pull anything or let it overheat, I think it will last as long as the old blue-flame 6 in my '47 GMC 3/4 ton did (that is, forever so far! <g>   Chris  ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:09:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Chris,          Glad we could help. Don't sit back entirely. You or others might have that one bit of information that we all can use in trying to piece together the history of HO.         I think you have confirmed that your engine is GARCO and hopefully the group has provided you with new information. As for what you plan to do with it is your decision.          I do have to ask you a favor. I had to delete a LOT from my mailbox. Unfortunately I deleted some wrong things. One was the pictures of the 6 wheel, pulley driven, brass trucks with flywheel you sent me. If you can please send at least on of them again. If you want to send it off list send to jimheck@losch. net.  Still looking around to see if I can match.                                                                       Have a good one.                          Jim            ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Jim, I've sent these pictures to confirm what looks like a Garco Baldwin switcher to me, now that I've seen it up close  it's a lot rougher than I remembered, but it did run at least once for me before the rubber tubing failed, so it certainly pulls its own weight!  I don't ever plan to clean the crud/patina off, but i might replace the tubing, the fabric insulation looks ok for now.  I learned about GARCO switchers from searching online for heavy cast switchers that could pull on grades, and the few mentions of this model made it sound like it was the heaviest switcher shell anyone could remember.  I did also get some loose mint cast sideframes, cab ends, and pilots on ebay from Sean on ebay that I now think are NOS parts for this engine.  Sean also had the other trucks I posted pictures of earlier. My story is similar to his, I'm almost retired, and finally building the dream layout, and bashing all metal engines that will pull all metal vintage freight consists up steep grades... I window shopped at shows for decades, but couldn't learn enough to buy smart so I held back.  Once the online groups started sharing information, and I spent a few years just windowshopping on ebay too, I was able to cherrypick on ebay myself, for example, I had a lot of fun buying hobbytown drives in plastic shells that were not identified as hobbytowns in the listings.  It's the ebay equivalent of getting into the shows and under the tables early. I am grateful for the knowledge shared by the senior members of this group, and I hope to sit back down in the bacck row again, and keep on learning. Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:07:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7128	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

That was my thoughts indeed.. --- On Wed, 8/27/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 10:48 AM I'll have to open them up again and see if the screw holes look like they were added, or if it looks like the frames were cast with holes.  may not be possible to tell, but if the holes show a cast in counter sink or edge, then even if the holes are drilled through, they might be original. ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:54:43 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Hi Chris,   There are no screw holes in the sides of Jim's sideframes as there are 2 in each side of yours.. other than that, they look very close..   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 9:45 AM Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:19:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7129	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Chris,                They do look close but I don't think  exactly the same. If I remember, and I don't have right in front of me, the H-M engines had drives and sideframes by UMPCO (only wrote this a couple of days ago and forget what it stands for). This is why I try to take my time to ID anything. There were a number of companies produced a 6 wheel, brass, pulley/ belt drive, with fly wheel like Walthers for one. You saw GARCO 4 wheel tuck drive unit similar. Since I don't know what type of engine they first made it could have been a model with 6 wheel trucks.  Who knows. ANDECO (Anderson and Co.) also comes to mind. While some ID 's pop out not all do. To much out there. As I said I will follow upon it as time allows so it could be a couple of days. Maybe someone out there recognizes it already.                                                                Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:19:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7130	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Attachments : Jim, I'll take a photo of them apart tonight, I think you might be right about ANDECO, here's why.   When I first got them, I compared the interior with the interior of the GARCO trucks, and they were too different to be a match.   but when I went on HO seeker and pulled up the attached ANDECO blurb, it includes a shot of the ANDECO trucks used for interurban power, and they feature the same pedestal support for the drive shaft that I remember seeing on the inside of these 6 wheel trucks.   Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:29:21 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Chris,                They do look close but I don't think  exactly the same. If I remember, and I don't have right in front of me, the H-M engines had drives and sideframes by UMPCO (only wrote this a couple of days ago and forget what it stands for). This is why I try to take my time to ID anything. There were a number of companies produced a 6 wheel, brass, pulley/ belt drive, with fly wheel like Walthers for one. You saw GARCO 4 wheel tuck drive unit similar. Since I don't know what type of engine they first made it could have been a model with 6 wheel trucks.  Who knows. ANDECO (Anderson and Co.) also comes to mind. While some ID 's pop out not all do. To much out there. As I said I will follow upon it as time allows so it could be a couple of days. Maybe someone out there recognizes it already.                                                                Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:19:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7131	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Dallas Model Craft

Attachments : Hi Gerold, Ray and others interested,               Over the next couple of days I will try to pass along pictures and information concerning DMC (Dallas Model Craft)  P.O. Box 2514    Dallas , Texas              Ray, before I start I hope this information about DMC will help as the E units were cast by A&S (Adams& Son). I think there has to be closer ties between A&S, GARCO and DMC the just a jobber supplying parts. Since A&S cast, GARCO sold these parts and DMC used them for their E unit. Also as Ray likes to joke with me I've had my cup of coffee (spiked, Irish coffee you know) hopefully I will make no major mistakes trying to type this.               DMC seemed to like the Santa Fe especially the Warbonnet scheme as you will see in this and other pictures. I have only found two types of engines. E units A&B (they refer to as E-3/6 's). and a set of A&B FT'S. They did make some streamlined passenger car kits. I will send pictures of one mint kit in O/B at the end. I have a lot of paperwork for DMC. I will send pictures of plans and diagrams but it would be hard to copy all the written assembly notes.                I will call this engine the first run of E units as there are 2 that I know about and can verify. Which came first I an unsure of.        Ray this engine has a heavy cast brass nose piece , the roof is cast Aluminum, for some reason the back casting looks like copper. Most of the pieces have A&S in raised letters on them especially on the roof. Some sellers see this and sell engine as A&S.                This is the only HO ENGINE, I can remember right now,that used printed paper sides (already adorned for the Santa Fe) that you glued on plain aluminum sheets for the sides. If you paint this item you have no choice but to complete it as a Santa Fe Warbonnet scheme.                The frame on this item is pieces of brass that is held together by screws. I have an extremely good close train collector buddy who said the drive in this engine was not original. I keep saying it looks manufactured and  he dug up the diagram that I'm showing proving it was one of the original drives.                  Tomorrow I will show you what I call second run that has metal embossed sides (again the Santa Fe scheme) and has a dual drive system that is pulley/O ring driven with the motor sitting in the middle and the O ring going down to a pulley that drives both trucks. It is also verified                 Lots of luck trying to digest this after the GARCO but I THINK a connection between A&S, GARCO and DMC                                                                                           Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7132	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Chris,             Think of Baker in your search also.         Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Jim, I'll take a photo of them apart tonight, I think you might be right about ANDECO, here's why.   When I first got them, I compared the interior with the interior of the GARCO trucks, and they were too different to be a match.   but when I went on HO seeker and pulled up the attached ANDECO blurb, it includes a shot of the ANDECO trucks used for interurban power, and they feature the same pedestal support for the drive shaft that I remember seeing on the inside of these 6 wheel trucks.   Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:29:21 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Chris,                They do look close but I don't think  exactly the same. If I remember, and I don't have right in front of me, the H-M engines had drives and sideframes by UMPCO (only wrote this a couple of days ago and forget what it stands for). This is why I try to take my time to ID anything. There were a number of companies produced a 6 wheel, brass, pulley/ belt drive, with fly wheel like Walthers for one. You saw GARCO 4 wheel tuck drive unit similar. Since I don't know what type of engine they first made it could have been a model with 6 wheel trucks.  Who knows. ANDECO (Anderson and Co.) also comes to mind. While some ID 's pop out not all do. To much out there. As I said I will follow upon it as time allows so it could be a couple of days. Maybe someone out there recognizes it already.                                                                Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:19:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7133	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: compare side frames

Hi Again Chris        Compare the side frames on the DMC E unit pictures I just sent to your unknown drive with side frames. A real hard part could be happening in any effort to ID. A lot of people modify and change parts that are not quit up to par as far as the real item. They like to make it as real as possible. No problem with that as we all do our own thing. Just keep that possibility in mid that your trucks and drive "could be" a mix and match.                                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7134	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Gareth,  Didn't mean to step on anybody's toes.  Like I said, I could be wrong about there being very many tyco car collectors, and it appears I am.  I would not have guessed that though, anymore than I would have guessed that there might be "Batch-man" collectors, or such.  I will say that most Mantua engines operate fairly decently for the price they sold for, even if they could never come up to Mantua standards.  Their mechanisms were still well engineered enough to be dependable.  I can see the nostalgia trend for them. A 7 to 8 hour drive to get to a meet is dedication, but the Allentown meet is one of the better shows in the northeast.  Hope you have some success in what you're looking for.  I can't really see how Ebay would be considered as making things equal for everybody, when its the money that talks on those sites.  Not all of us can afford to spend 30% to 50% more than an item is really worth, nor would we care to be shelling out money like its just so much wampum, without a regard for it.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7135	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Harry J. Garrett, was -Varney Yellowstone

Jim,  Many thanks in advance for sending the photos and paperwork.  Right now, with the way my computer is working, I'm not able to see anything (for anything more than 5 seconds) as, no sooner than I open it than it closes it after only a glimpse.  This is why, if you've noticed, that when replying to a post I have to reply directly to the email I receive, which does not include the previous poster's message when I send it -- something that I really hate doing.  This just started a few days ago, on top of all the other crap its doing.  I may need you to re-send them after I'm all squared away, thanks again.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7136	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft

Jim, I have a Dallas ModelCraft catalog (somewhere), that I can't seem to put my hands on right now, but as I recall, you're right -- I remember Dallas as making only those EMC/EMD "covered wagon" units as their line of engines, from what I'm retaining of their catalog. Just as you're thinking, I too believe there is some further connection between A&S, GARCO and Dallas, which is why I'd like to dig up more history on them.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7137	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: shows, list vs Ebay

I would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion about shows,lists and Ebay since I already added my first penny previously.  Do what works or worked for you.              I started collecting trains by going to local meets. I was a novice as far a knowing vintage HO at that time. I just liked HO. Since there were a number of shows in our area it was natural to visit them. I waited in line sometimes not getting there till later. I loved walking around. Sometimes it became hard to stop to view anything. I was and still am a "scrounger". As I became more knowledgeable about vintage HO items I became a little more particular as to what I wanted to buy. I learned that the dealers after set up became the collectors before the show started. I'm a buyer not a seller. I had friends selling and helped them set up tables and get ready In turn for watching the table, I was able to search early.  I had very little money and had to take a little less then mint if I found anything. I have become very good a restoring,refurbishing to original most of my engines because I couldn't spend big. I became very good at spotting items especially even basket cases under the table.       I then found out about list that you could send a small fee for and in return got a list of items for set prices. I soon learned the people to deal with. I found a number of sellers who were not only selling at decent prices but had a very nice listing and dealt with them constantly.  A large part of my collection came from 4 individual sellers. Two are still selling on Ebay.      Then the electronic age took over.Ebay became the thing. You have to have an idea of what you are looking for. At first a lot of items mislabeled as the sellers not up on what they sold. While this has changed drastically there are still items that can be found, if you have the time to search and have some knowledge of what you are looking for.        Comments on prices. Let's face it we all want the top dollar if selling and the lowest bid if buying. Human nature. Since my collection is rather large, covering so many companies, the pieces I need are a little fewer then some.  Now I'm talking about collecting since 1958. If I want or need a piece bad enough to complete my collection I might bid higher then I should. Don't always assume another will come along. My feeling, since only a collector, is the value of  that item will go up over the years. Did I pay to much or was I just filling the puzzle ?         Since I have dealt with buying HO at both ends of the spectrum and every thing in between I find nothing wrong with how anybody goes about doing their thing.  My view,my two cents, from my perspective.                                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7138	From: Graeme	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

Hi Guys, Forgive me, I'm a Brit, and need help identifying a US tank car : http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/misc/mobil/mobilgas.jpg I have only a picture and description. Wheels are described as about 5/8ths of an inch apart, so probably H0. Seems to be a tin tank on a die cast frame? Any thoughts? Thanks! -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7139	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft

Ray,           Are you spitting nails at that computer. Has to be totally frustrating. How about using that old adjustment tool on it. A HAMMER. A few tapes and it might work better. Thanks for the comments. I intend to try to find out.                                                                               Take Care     Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dallas Model Craft Jim, I have a Dallas ModelCraft catalog (somewhere), that I can't seem to put my hands on right now, but as I recall, you're right -- I remember Dallas as making only those EMC/EMD "covered wagon" units as their line of engines, from what I'm retaining of their catalog. Just as you're thinking, I too believe there is some further connection between A&S, GARCO and Dallas, which is why I'd like to dig up more history on them.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7140	From: Riverboy	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

Hi Graeme,   It appears to be an old Athearn metal line tank car .   Tod Graeme <groups@...> wrote: Hi Guys, Forgive me, I'm a Brit, and need help identifying a US tank car : http://www.binnsroa d.co.uk/misc/ mobil/mobilgas. jpg I have only a picture and description. Wheels are described as about 5/8ths of an inch apart, so probably H0. Seems to be a tin tank on a die cast frame? Any thoughts? Thanks! -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7141	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Graeme" <groups@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 1:58 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Identify Mobilgas tank car? > > Hi Guys, > > Forgive me, I'm a Brit, and need help identifying a US tank car : > > http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/misc/mobil/mobilgas.jpg > > I have only a picture and description. Wheels are described as about > 5/8ths of an inch apart, so probably H0. Seems to be a tin tank on a > die cast frame? Any thoughts? > > Thanks! > -- > Graeme It looks like an Athearn. Compare it to this one from my collection http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/e321?b=1 Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7142	From: Graeme	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

In message <002e01c90879$9d722ba0$6401a8c0@DON>, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> writes > >It looks like an Athearn. Compare it to this one from my collection > >http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/e321?b=1 Thank you, Tod and Don - that was quick! Very much appreciated. Regards from Scotland, -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7143	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

> Not all of us can afford to spend 30% to 50% more than an item is really worth, > nor would we care to be shelling out money like its just so much wampum, > without a regard for it. Ray </HTML> So you want to set the value for all the vintage items? The item may sell on ebay for more then you think it should go for, this just means that your estimate of value is wrong! At least one person (the bidder and usually the second bidder) thought they were getting the item at an acceptable price. I agree that some just what an item at any price, but to them it is still a good price. Like you, I frequent trains show down here in the Carolina and Georgia to find bargains, some I keep and some I resell on ebay to support my habit. Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7144	From: Riverboy	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

Hey, that's what fellow members are for.   Tod Graeme <groups@...> wrote: In message <002e01c90879$ 9d722ba0$ 6401a8c0@ DON>, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> writes > >It looks like an Athearn. Compare it to this one from my collection > >http://ph.groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/view/ e321?b=1 Thank you, Tod and Don - that was quick! Very much appreciated. Regards from Scotland, -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7145	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Attachments : Jim, I think you nailed it with Baker,   I posted in the Garco folder all the pix and paperwork you've sent, and added a small Baker truck folder.   Attached to this email is a clip of the GARCO paperwork description, that says the switcher features Baker trucks.    I found a pair of Baker 4 whl diesel drv trucks and 6 whl pass trucks on ebay. Those pix are in the Baker folder.   I put them side by side with my 6 whl trucks I'm trying to identify, and I'm pretty convinced the drive system is identical to the Baker gear tower, flywheel, etc. The 4 whl frames mount the sideframes in typical fashion with a separate bolster.  The 6 whl sideframes look vaguely similar to my sideframes, but not 100%.   On HO seeker you can find a Baker flyer that offers 12 whl drive power trucks for E7s. Perhaps what I have are those trucks with the sideframes mounted with screws and standoff posts as a repair/ bolster replacement effort.    Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:36:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Chris,             Think of Baker in your search also.         Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Jim, I'll take a photo of them apart tonight, I think you might be right about ANDECO, here's why.   When I first got them, I compared the interior with the interior of the GARCO trucks, and they were too different to be a match.   but when I went on HO seeker and pulled up the attached ANDECO blurb, it includes a shot of the ANDECO trucks used for interurban power, and they feature the same pedestal support for the drive shaft that I remember seeing on the inside of these 6 wheel trucks.   Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:29:21 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Chris,                They do look close but I don't think  exactly the same. If I remember, and I don't have right in front of me, the H-M engines had drives and sideframes by UMPCO (only wrote this a couple of days ago and forget what it stands for). This is why I try to take my time to ID anything. There were a number of companies produced a 6 wheel, brass, pulley/ belt drive, with fly wheel like Walthers for one. You saw GARCO 4 wheel tuck drive unit similar. Since I don't know what type of engine they first made it could have been a model with 6 wheel trucks.  Who knows. ANDECO (Anderson and Co.) also comes to mind. While some ID 's pop out not all do. To much out there. As I said I will follow upon it as time allows so it could be a couple of days. Maybe someone out there recognizes it already.                                                                Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:19:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7146	From: Chris B	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: compare side frames

Attachments : Jim, I think you might have it right here too.  Maybe they're Baker trucks with DMC sideframes.  there's no way they're DMC trucks, but good chance they're DMC sideframes screwed to the sides of Baker trucks. Chris  ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:49:00 PM Subject: [vintageHO] compare side frames Hi Again Chris        Compare the side frames on the DMC E unit pictures I just sent to your unknown drive with side frames. A real hard part could be happening in any effort to ID. A lot of people modify and change parts that are not quit up to par as far as the real item. They like to make it as real as possible. No problem with that as we all do our own thing. Just keep that possibility in mid that your trucks and drive "could be" a mix and match.                                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7147	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Attachments : I am not convinced about the side frames, however.. the pullies look very close..  So does with the screw on top of the chassis..   attached are the pics of the pieces you asked about Chris...   Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7148	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Many thanks for this  8^) Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 27, 2008, at 7:51 AM, Jim Heckard wrote: Mike ,                                              Glad we could confirm your engine. According to the plans and my engine that piece of plywood for the floor was normal.    As for the loose ends maybe resistance soldering can work.My example has some clear glue or epoxy holding them onwhich you can see on the inside. Came that way. Can't say what is normal.                As for the wire.My engine has 3 6 inch pieces of a copper or brass wire with it. I haven't miked it but looks like .020 wire used for handrail material. You formed you're own handrail's                                                       Regards         Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers Well, Jim, That's exactly the diesel  I have........ ..... It's good to see the paperwork that originally came with the model. I've long wondered if that plywood floor was original. Since you have that as well, It must be... In my model, the former owner started to drill out the left side window  with what looks like a 1/16 in drill-bit. He gave up after trying to drill about three holes. The cab end and the pilot ends are still loose on mine. I'm thinking of resistance soldering them on before they get lost. I'm missing the handrails for mine. Where those wire or something more exotic? On Aug 26, 2008, at 6:07 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7149	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Hi Chris,       While some people might be able to look at that piece you ask about and ID no problem, I can't. You can see all the possibilities and possible problems with exchanging parts. I'm sorry I can't do any better for you. Even with the very good pictures you sent hard to see all the detail and nuances. You will have to judge now for yourself. Hope I was some help. Anytime I can help just ask.                                                                              Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Jim, I think you nailed it with Baker,   I posted in the Garco folder all the pix and paperwork you've sent, and added a small Baker truck folder.   Attached to this email is a clip of the GARCO paperwork description, that says the switcher features Baker trucks.    I found a pair of Baker 4 whl diesel drv trucks and 6 whl pass trucks on ebay. Those pix are in the Baker folder.   I put them side by side with my 6 whl trucks I'm trying to identify, and I'm pretty convinced the drive system is identical to the Baker gear tower, flywheel, etc. The 4 whl frames mount the sideframes in typical fashion with a separate bolster.  The 6 whl sideframes look vaguely similar to my sideframes, but not 100%.   On HO seeker you can find a Baker flyer that offers 12 whl drive power trucks for E7s. Perhaps what I have are those trucks with the sideframes mounted with screws and standoff posts as a repair/ bolster replacement effort.    Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:36:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Chris,             Think of Baker in your search also.         Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Jim, I'll take a photo of them apart tonight, I think you might be right about ANDECO, here's why.   When I first got them, I compared the interior with the interior of the GARCO trucks, and they were too different to be a match.   but when I went on HO seeker and pulled up the attached ANDECO blurb, it includes a shot of the ANDECO trucks used for interurban power, and they feature the same pedestal support for the drive shaft that I remember seeing on the inside of these 6 wheel trucks.   Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:29:21 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Chris,                They do look close but I don't think  exactly the same. If I remember, and I don't have right in front of me, the H-M engines had drives and sideframes by UMPCO (only wrote this a couple of days ago and forget what it stands for). This is why I try to take my time to ID anything. There were a number of companies produced a 6 wheel, brass, pulley/ belt drive, with fly wheel like Walthers for one. You saw GARCO 4 wheel tuck drive unit similar. Since I don't know what type of engine they first made it could have been a model with 6 wheel trucks.  Who knows. ANDECO (Anderson and Co.) also comes to mind. While some ID 's pop out not all do. To much out there. As I said I will follow upon it as time allows so it could be a couple of days. Maybe someone out there recognizes it already.                                                                Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:19:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Last of Garco paper                     These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7150	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

No problem . Glad to help. I'm having a good laugh trying to figure what  &nb sp  stands for and how it got on my Email to you where I say Regards. Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:38 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Many thanks for this  8^) Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 27, 2008, at 7:51 AM, Jim Heckard wrote: Mike ,                                              Glad we could confirm your engine. According to the plans and my engine that piece of plywood for the floor was normal.    As for the loose ends maybe resistance soldering can work.My example has some clear glue or epoxy holding them onwhich you can see on the inside. Came that way. Can't say what is normal.                As for the wire.My engine has 3 6 inch pieces of a copper or brass wire with it. I haven't miked it but looks like .020 wire used for handrail material. You formed you're own handrail's                                                       Regards&nb sp;        Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers Well, Jim, That's exactly the diesel  I have........ ..... It's good to see the paperwork that originally came with the model. I've long wondered if that plywood floor was original. Since you have that as well, It must be... In my model, the former owner started to drill out the left side window  with what looks like a 1/16 in drill-bit. He gave up after trying to drill about three holes. The cab end and the pilot ends are still loose on mine. I'm thinking of resist ance soldering them on before they get lost. I'm missing the handrails for mine. Where those wire or something more exotic? On Aug 26, 2008, at 6:07 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open the m even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to s ee any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7151	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Brian, My comments were based on a couple of things (and I confess that I did a paper for my post-grad work on eBay back in the late 1990s so I can be a bit tedious and for that I apologize) -- both of which have to do with the supply of items to eBay and the overall decline in the number of items being listed. Overall, in the Model railroad category, listings are down about 17-20% over last year at this time. Worse yet, in our subcateogory of HO, listings are down nearly 30% with slight increases in the O Gauge (Timplate) and G-scale categories. The reason is that the changes in eBay rules, designed to attract more buyers to the high-profit electronics and clothing areas (and full-size automobiles) has made it less desireable for the private seller to list items on eBay, especially used items that might not work or cause a less-than-knowledgable buyer to complain, demand a refund, or leave negative feedback. Since sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers, the deck is stacked against the small- time seller. Already I have seen far fewer collections being sold in the Model Railroading category, and that is where a lot of the old collectible HO shows up. And since we are in a period of economic doldrums, we should be seeing more, not less items coming to the market. In 2001- 2002, when the economy slowed after 9/11, the number of listings in the Model Railroad category reached an all time hight of 117,000+ -- we are lucky to see 60,000 items listed on any given day right now. So, that is the dreary economics of it all. EBay, which once was my source of nearly 80% of my vintage HO collection, hasn't provided me with anything of note for nearly 6 months, and I am on it daily. This is just my opinion, but being a dreary economic analyst, I tend to keep track of statistics for no particular reason. Cheers! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Hi Matt, I am wondering why you say Ebay is "now in decline for us > collectors"? It seems to me that Ebay has a steady supply of all types of HO models. > It seems to me that as a collector, after you have acquired a certain item and > are no longer searching for it, the remaining sought after items grow fewer > and far between, making it seem like there is less available. I am an avid > brass collector from the very first imports to the latest, and I have come to a > point in my collecting that I keep seeing the same old stuff over and over > again. I feel as if there is very little left that I am interested in. This is > purely my perspective, I don't believe there is any more or any less being > listed, in the brass category anyway. I believe that like most collectors, at a > point, you try to refine your collection by selling off the lessor items and > finding prime examples of your more prized items. There are two constants in > life "death and taxes", some people seem to be able to avoid the tax part > (not me) but since we all have to go sometime, all of our prize collections > will, at some point, be sold off. Most likely in a forum like Ebay, thus > starting the cycle all over again. Sorry to go off topic, Brian L > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7152	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Andeco........... ?? I have a few trolleys with those drives. I should take some pics......... It will be this weekend with the way my schedule is loaded up. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:59 AM, Chris B wrote: Jim, I'll take a photo of them apart tonight, I think you might be right about ANDECO, here's why.   When I first got them, I compared the interior with the interior of the GARCO trucks, and they were too different to be a match.   but when I went on HO seeker and pulled up the attached ANDECO blurb, it includes a shot of the ANDECO trucks used for interurban power, and they feature the same pedestal support for the drive shaft that I remember seeing on the inside of these 6 wheel trucks.   Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard  Chris,                They do look close but I don't think  exactly the same. If I remember, and I don't have right in front of me, the H-M engines had drives and sideframes by UMPCO (only wrote this a couple of days ago and forget what it stands for). This is why I try to take my time to ID anything. There were a number of companies produced a 6 wheel, brass, pulley/ belt drive, with fly wheel like Walthers for one. You saw GARCO 4 wheel tuck drive unit similar. Since I don't know what type of engine they first made it could have been a model with 6 wheel trucks.  Who knows. ANDECO (Anderson and Co.) also comes to mind. While some ID 's pop out not all do. To much out there. As I said I will follow upon it as time allows so it could be a couple of days. Maybe someone out there recognizes it already.                                                                Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B Jim, while you're trying to place those six wheel trucks, I'll say the Harris & Matteucci E-model sideframes in the photos you posted recently looked very close to me.  I blew them up, put them in the same image as the ones I've got, and decided it wasn't close enough a match.  what do you think? Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard                      These 2 pictures are of the LAST sheet I have from the Garco engine.   Yeah I bet from all sides.  It contains all the prices for all the different power options you could buy.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7153	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft

There's a new virus going around. I have to go to my sister's house and cure her kid's computer. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 27, 2008, at 2:02 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: Ray,           Are you spitting nails at that computer. Has to be totally frustrating. How about using that old adjustment tool on it. A HAMMER. A few tapes and it might work better. Thanks for the comments. I intend to try to find out.                                                                               Take Care     Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dallas Model Craft Jim, I have a Dallas ModelCraft catalog (somewhere), that I can't seem to put my hands on right now, but as I recall, you're right -- I remember Dallas as making only those EMC/EMD "covered wagon" units as their line of engines, from what I'm retaining of their catalog. Just as you're thinking, I too believe there is some further connection between A&S, GARCO and Dallas, which is why I'd like to dig up more history on them.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7154	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Sean  Brother I like the way  you preach, it is a very good way to look at the hobby and I don't think anyone should be offended. I never got to a Train Show, I live too far out in the Boonies to get to a good show, Only model shows I ever got to was the IPMS Gateway Model club in St. Louis (a model car, truck etc) it was very intresting but with out much funds and a Theif for a companion I decided to never go to another without trustworthy friends with me. But you put you feelings down very well about now and then. Sorry  for rambleing. Charlie X ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Naylor" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] List, Train Shows vs Ebay Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 07:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Hey Guys,   Just wanted to chime in...   My following comments are not meant to disagree or offend anyone, so please take it that way.. It is just a different perspective from a younger collector & modeler.   I know alot of you older gents like to remember the Good-ol-days of the many train shows and frown upon the advent of eBay and the resulting deminishing quantity and quality of the shows, but hear me out, please..   When you guys were in your prime (mid 30's) and frequenting these shows. You, as you have already stated, had your in's and secrets of how you were able to get in early and find the great deals..   I on the other hand, was young.. teens and/or pre-teens... I was one of those general public participants.. For me the train show was both a great experience as well as a sad experience..  In those days, there was little to no external pressure on dealers to keep their prices reasonable.. Sure, you guys knew where the deals were and how to get them, but I didn't. I loved trains, but put them away for nearly 20 years because the hobby was just too expensive for me. I di not get to enjoy it the way you did.   Since the advent of Ebay, I have finally had exposure to some of the most fanastic pieces I have ever seen not to mention finally having access with the chance to buy,.. I am not saying that I am pro-ebay and against the shows.. I still love going to them and now have more money and am willing to spend more at the shows when I go. Honestly, I hat to see the shows go. I have found a few fellows I like to chat with and meet in person at the shows and it makes the experience even more enjoyable.. can't do that on ebay..   If it were not for my ebay experience, I would never have sold Don the C-Liner he now has.. I then would have never benn informed by a fellow ebay'r and VintageHO group member of the existance Don's discussion group.. I would have then therfore met and established what I believe  and hope to be lasting relationships and friendships with some fellow members here on line over the past 3-4 years..  I believe now, especially since the fading existance due to profitability of the train shows..it is groups like this in conjunction with eBay that are actually keeping the hobby alive. These groups provide the comradery and access of the vital information that ebay or any other source can not provide and ebay has now become one of, if not the main source of the tangable items of which we discuss and desire..   I have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences both with the people I have met, spoken to or emailed concerning this hobby, both on line and off... For me, being both a buyer and seller on eBay has refired my passion for the hobby and I am now (finally in my prime) getting to experience the same level of enjoyment in it as you guys did in your "Good-ol-days". I never had those experiences, so I am unable to relate or miss them..   I did try selling at a show once here at the Monroeville expo mart.. After 1 day of prep, two days at the show and 1 day to clean up, I made less than I would have with 8 hours worth of work on ebay. I also found the venders were relentless in the morning before the show, wanting my best stuff cheap and the rest of the weekend was mainly "cherry pickers".  I did not have stted price tags on all my items, but rather had people make me offers.. At the end, I had to reorganize about 2/3 of the stuff I had taken and pack it away again.. With ebay, onece i list it..it is gone, no matter what it sells for, I never have to see it again.   Pertaining to the thoughts as to whether current prices are fair?? I am not sure what that means.. If both the buyer and seller agree on a price, then it is fair.. It does not depend on whether you are the buyer OR seller.. Mybe if one were used to getting an in on the items before they were brought to market, I could see where one might be disapointed that this acces no longer exists.. but it is fair to allow everyone acces.. For me, when I was young, model railroading felt like an exclusive club, of which I was not a menber.. I now no longer feel that way..   So, for me the change has been good...   I am in no way here trying to start a debate or discussion of eBay vs Train shows... Just stating my perspective as I have experienced an remember it. I know some guys really hate eBay and all that it has brought about and I respect that, although I may not feel the same way.   I hope this does not stir up any harsh debate or ill will. That is really not my intent..   Sean     --- On Tue, 8/26/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 6:43 AM Hi Ray,            TOTALLY AGREE (bet you thought you would never hear that) as to remarks you made concerning missing list and less train shows due to Ebay. I miss not receiving those train list where a price was stated and if you wanted it, it was on a first come basis. And because you had to send an envelope to get the list. I do miss that.           There were a lot more train shows back then. I especially liked Allentown and some other local shows that have gone by the wayside. My favorite show was Hamburg.(Never got to York.) I only live an hour from Hamburg up route 61. (Hint Hint.). I bet you if we met face to face we could talk for a little while about HO. All this typing and Emails while fast can be confusing.           Those days are almost gone. I know you could get in early especially if you were there with a seller. After dealers setup it was kind of a frenzy to see what each had before the general public left in. Kind of a little unfair. I spent more time looking at boxes under the tables rummaging. You couldn't do that after the crowd came in. You kind of had to go with the flow or get trampled. My opinion, although have not gone there lately, was they started to get to many dealers and narrowed where you walk. Oh the good old days.           Ebay has definitely changed how HO changes hands. A lot of the time the only way to get an item you need is to pay the price to win the bid. Is it a fair price ? Depends on are you the buyer or the seller..           I have been up early as I go over the comments you wrote on Varney. Over time I want to get back to you about these discussions. I've got to pin some things down dealing with dates for Pre and Post war. To me the war was 1939-1945. What would that period between those dates be defined as ? When was the war effort the cause of  utilizing certain materials to others ? FIRST Varney steam engine production were bronze (pre war) .  Super models post war . Any dates for changes made like you mentioned having cast pre war boilers ?  These and other questions are running through my mind.           One last thing. I have never weighed engines. You quoted some weights for (I hope I read it right) Varney Pre War Consolidation (Wooten Boiler) and the Varney Yellowstone with a bronze boiler as being close in weight. This is hard for me to believe. A Varney Yellowstone with bronze boiler and 2 mechanisms, in my mind, has to be close to double the pre war bronze Consolidation. Better end for now but thoroughly enjoying the discussions.                                                                                                    Jim                -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7155	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi All,   To a degree, I do have to concure with Matt's discussion.. Here is why..   He is correct in the decline in the total number of items listed...   I think it was about 2 years ago when they raised the listing fees as well as other fees by nearly double..  Almost instantly the daily average for listings dropped from nearly 70,000 to about 35,000 - 40,000. The daily average has never gone up to the numbers as I remember them when I first started selling 4 years ago... (sorry, I do watch numbers too.. My engineering experience forces me to keep spread sheets on all my current and prior sales, as well as bids)   Matt is correct in the fact that there have been very few large collections being sold.. I remember seeing on a couple of occasions where there were large collections which had at least 100 highly desireable pieces or more and ended up selling for over $20,000 for the lot.. I have not seen one in two years... I think it was 2005, I saw two that year alone...  Even though I do not target collections that large, I have been known to go after much smaller collections with a total cumulative value of $6,000 or more.. I have not seen one of those even in the past year.. That is frustrating to me..   I am not sure if the reasons for this decline in items listed is as Matt describes however, I can say this.. I do not believe ebay is targeting the market which seeks out such small older items like trains... Here is why I say this..  In the coming weeks, ebay will no longer permit transactions to be completed through the use of money orders or checks.. the only forms of payment will be billpay, paypal, credit card or cash on pick-up.  I can say ~ 10% of my frequient customers like and prefer to send checks or money orders... There are also many sellers who will only take checks or money orders.. (for example: Dadsbrasstrains is one I like to buy from).. Many guys who buy these trains are not up to date, so to speak, when it comes to electronic forms of payment.. The news of theis coming direct from emails sent from ebay to me.. I think it is disturbing, if you ask me.. What right do they have telling me what forms of payment I can receive...   However.. I do have to disagree on the reasons for the decline in listings to a point.. and this is it.. Look who are buying most of the vintage HO items.. The "Baby Boomers" They have not started to die off yet.. (sorry for my frankness)   They are starting to retire... I expect the market to be pretty much flooded in approximately 10-20 years.. By then, the people selling will be the younger generation (like me) who will be parting out their fathers and grand fathers collections. I know Brian and i have discussed this once or twice in the past and we both agree on this point.. don't know what else to add..   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: From: mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 6:00 PM Brian, My comments were based on a couple of things (and I confess that I did a paper for my post-grad work on eBay back in the late 1990s so I can be a bit tedious and for that I apologize) -- both of which have to do with the supply of items to eBay and the overall decline in the number of items being listed. Overall, in the Model railroad category, listings are down about 17-20% over last year at this time. Worse yet, in our subcateogory of HO, listings are down nearly 30% with slight increases in the O Gauge (Timplate) and G-scale categories. The reason is that the changes in eBay rules, designed to attract more buyers to the high-profit electronics and clothing areas (and full-size automobiles) has made it less desireable for the private seller to list items on eBay, especially used items that might not work or cause a less-than-knowledga ble buyer to complain, demand a refund, or leave negative feedback. Since sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers, the deck is stacked against the small- time seller. Already I have seen far fewer collections being sold in the Model Railroading category, and that is where a lot of the old collectible HO shows up. And since we are in a period of economic doldrums, we should be seeing more, not less items coming to the market. In 2001- 2002, when the economy slowed after 9/11, the number of listings in the Model Railroad category reached an all time hight of 117,000+ -- we are lucky to see 60,000 items listed on any given day right now. So, that is the dreary economics of it all. EBay, which once was my source of nearly 80% of my vintage HO collection, hasn't provided me with anything of note for nearly 6 months, and I am on it daily. This is just my opinion, but being a dreary economic analyst, I tend to keep track of statistics for no particular reason. Cheers! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Hi Matt, I am wondering why you say Ebay is "now in decline for us > collectors"? It seems to me that Ebay has a steady supply of all types of HO models. > It seems to me that as a collector, after you have acquired a certain item and > are no longer searching for it, the remaining sought after items grow fewer > and far between, making it seem like there is less available. I am an avid > brass collector from the very first imports to the latest, and I have come to a > point in my collecting that I keep seeing the same old stuff over and over > again. I feel as if there is very little left that I am interested in. This is > purely my perspective, I don't believe there is any more or any less being > listed, in the brass category anyway. I believe that like most collectors, at a > point, you try to refine your collection by selling off the lessor items and > finding prime examples of your more prized items. There are two constants in > life "death and taxes", some people seem to be able to avoid the tax part > (not me) but since we all have to go sometime, all of our prize collections > will, at some point, be sold off. Most likely in a forum like Ebay, thus > starting the cycle all over again. Sorry to go off topic, Brian L > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7156	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Graeme" <groups@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Identify Mobilgas tank car? > In message <002e01c90879$9d722ba0$6401a8c0@DON>, Don Dellmann > <don.dellmann@...> writes >> >>It looks like an Athearn. Compare it to this one from my collection >> >>http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/view/e321?b=1 > > Thank you, Tod and Don - that was quick! > > Very much appreciated. > > Regards from Scotland, > -- > Graeme Queries like yours were one of the reasons I started the group, and I have been thrilled that we've gotten the membership we have, who are willing to share their knowledge. I wish there had been the internet and a group like this back in the 1970's when I had a brief fling with continental prototype and kept stumbling across Hornby Dublo stuff. :-) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7157	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: add to DMC

Attachments :           Hi Gerold,                   Awful quiet over that side of the pond.    Here is another paper on DMC to go with what I already sent and will be sending. To many different sheets and pictures to send at once.                     This shows the parts and assembly for the  E 3/6  superstructure A&B units                                                                                                   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7158	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Jim, Did you send copies of the paper photos to HO seeker?  I am worried that the site will get too full and think I will remove the photos of the paper work in a short time.  I notice each day we get 1% closer to being full.  But some great vintage models. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:08 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures   Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7159	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

If the tank is factory lettered, I'd guess Thomas--if it has an embossed card wrapper, then Mantua. Either I would expect to find the name cast in the center sill. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graeme" <groups@...> ] Identify Mobilgas tank car? > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7160	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Chuck,        I have sent most or all of this paperwork to Larry Stevenson / HO seeker. Feel free not to add paperwork or boxes. If you can get Don the owner he can also remove all papers and boxes from the album. I think only he can remove.         I don't know if you know Larry / HOseeker. His wife just passed away and he is not sure when he can get my "stuff" on his site.  I will continue to send all pictures to site so all can view. Just add the actual pictures of Engines to the album.                                                         Have a good one.                                                             Jim----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:55 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Jim, Did you send copies of the paper photos to HO seeker?  I am worried that the site will get too full and think I will remove the photos of the paper work in a short time.  I notice each day we get 1% closer to being full.  But some great vintage models. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:08 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures Hi All,                  I'm sending these pictures to show the GARCO ( Harry J Garrett & Son) BW Switcher engine.. I'm not sure as to the exact make up of the "alloy" the engine is made of. I will call it a brass for now. What ever it is seems to me to be one of the hardest metals to drill. The casting is very thick and heavy. The raised detail is not very pronounced. Very hard to see even close. It came with no openings for the windows. I think I mentioned before that I would never try to open them even with a milling machine.              I sent another copy of some more paperwork that came with the engine. It shows you can make it driven by one truck or two and also change the size of the Pittman motor. From the pricing sheet, which I will have to send later, it seems that you bought the engine with what motor/drive you wanted and that price varied. No you didn't get any extra free stuff.              I also don't want to drill to put the handrails on. Again to hard of metal and since a collection piece that's OK with me.  Hope these pictures of engine, box and paperwork are helpful. I hope I'm not flooding the site. If any pictures not good enough to see any writing just ask and I'll try for better. You should be able to see address and phone number on the paperwork.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7161	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

It all depends on how badly someone wants an item. I have been willing to pay rather ridiculous prices for some items--other times I've cut off quickly. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard R Garner" <cascaderail@...> To:Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay >> Not all of us can afford to spend 30% to 50% more than an item is really >> worth,

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7162	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Garco Engine Pictures

Jim, I can delete items.  I will remove the paper as we add more in, one for one.  That way it will be on for a while yet.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 8:09 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Garco Engine Pictures   Chuck,        I have sent most or all of this paperwork to Larry Stevenson / HO seeker. Feel free not to add paperwork or boxes. If you can get Don the owner he can also remove all papers and boxes from the album. I think only he can remove.         I don't know if you know Larry / HOseeker. His wife just passed away and he is not sure when he can get my "stuff" on his site.  I will continue to send all pictures to site so all can view. Just add the actual pictures of Engines to the album.                                                         Have a good one.                                                             Jim----- Original Message -----

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7163	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Matt, good research! I have to agree with your statement regarding the drop in listing volume, especially for lower priced items. It's just not cost effective for low volume Ebay sellers to list a $2 item and go through the packing and any other headaches that may go with it. With the new Ebay rules, it is no longer geared for sellers. I am pro Ebay, mostly because I am a buyer 99% of the time. I rarely sell on Ebay. I have been an Ebay member for about 10 years and I have seen the listing volume drop as you say, but I think there is still a fairly good showing in just about all categories. When I attend train shows, I usually take as much cash as I can afford and hit the show with a vengeance. Bound to have bags full of goodies and not a cent left in my pocket. This is always fun, but there are some draw backs. Going to the shows not knowing what will be there,  becomes a treasure hunt in a way, you hope to find a great deal, but more often than not, you end up broke with not much to show for it. I personally prefer buying on Ebay when it's all said and done.   Thanks, Brian L   In a message dated 8/27/2008 6:00:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mattjcoleman@... writes: Brian, My comments were based on a couple of things (and I confess that I did a paper for my post-grad work on eBay back in the late 1990s so I can be a bit tedious and for that I apologize) -- both of which have to do with the supply of items to eBay and the overall decline in the number of items being listed. Overall, in the Model railroad category, listings are down about 17-20% over last year at this time. Worse yet, in our subcateogory of HO, listings are down nearly 30% with slight increases in the O Gauge (Timplate) and G-scale categories. The reason is that the changes in eBay rules, designed to attract more buyers to the high-profit electronics and clothing areas (and full-size automobiles) has made it less desireable for the private seller to list items on eBay, especially used items that might not work or cause a less-than-knowledga ble buyer to complain, demand a refund, or leave negative feedback. Since sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers, the deck is stacked against the small- time seller. Already I have seen far fewer collections being sold in the Model Railroading category, and that is where a lot of the old collectible HO shows up. And since we are in a period of economic doldrums, we should be seeing more, not less items coming to the market. In 2001- 2002, when the economy slowed after 9/11, the number of listings in the Model Railroad category reached an all time hight of 117,000+ -- we are lucky to see 60,000 items listed on any given day right now. So, that is the dreary economics of it all. EBay, which once was my source of nearly 80% of my vintage HO collection, hasn't provided me with anything of note for nearly 6 months, and I am on it daily. This is just my opinion, but being a dreary economic analyst, I tend to keep track of statistics for no particular reason. Cheers! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Hi Matt, I am wondering why you say Ebay is "now in decline for us > collectors"? It seems to me that Ebay has a steady supply of all types of HO models. > It seems to me that as a collector, after you have acquired a certain item and > are no longer searching for it, the remaining sought after items grow fewer > and far between, making it seem like there is less available. I am an avid > brass collector from the very first imports to the latest, and I have come to a > point in my collecting that I keep seeing the same old stuff over and over > again. I feel as if there is very little left that I am interested in. This is > purely my perspective, I don't believe there is any more or any less being > listed, in the brass category anyway. I believe that like most collectors, at a > point, you try to refine your collection by selling off the lessor items and > finding prime examples of your more prized items. There are two constants in > life "death and taxes", some people seem to be able to avoid the tax part > (not me) but since we all have to go sometime, all of our prize collections > will, at some point, be sold off. Most likely in a forum like Ebay, thus > starting the cycle all over again. Sorry to go off topic, Brian L > > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7164	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Well said Sean,   I agree totally. Brian   In a message dated 8/27/2008 6:54:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a69mustang4me@... writes: Hi All,   To a degree, I do have to concure with Matt's discussion.. Here is why..   He is correct in the decline in the total number of items listed...   I think it was about 2 years ago when they raised the listing fees as well as other fees by nearly double..  Almost instantly the daily average for listings dropped from nearly 70,000 to about 35,000 - 40,000. The daily average has never gone up to the numbers as I remember them when I first started selling 4 years ago... (sorry, I do watch numbers too.. My engineering experience forces me to keep spread sheets on all my current and prior sales, as well as bids)   Matt is correct in the fact that there have been very few large collections being sold.. I remember seeing on a couple of occasions where there were large collections which had at least 100 highly desireable pieces or more and ended up selling for over $20,000 for the lot.. I have not seen one in two years... I think it was 2005, I saw two that year alone...  Even though I do not target collections that large, I have been known to go after much smaller collections with a total cumulative value of $6,000 or more.. I have not seen one of those even in the past year.. That is frustrating to me..   I am not sure if the reasons for this decline in items listed is as Matt describes however, I can say this.. I do not believe ebay is targeting the market which seeks out such small older items like trains... Here is why I say this..  In the coming weeks, ebay will no longer permit transactions to be completed through the use of money orders or checks.. the only forms of payment will be billpay, paypal, credit card or cash on pick-up.  I can say ~ 10% of my frequient customers like and prefer to send checks or money orders... There are also many sellers who will only take checks or money orders.. (for example: Dadsbrasstrains is one I like to buy from).. Many guys who buy these trains are not up to date, so to speak, when it comes to electronic forms of payment.. The news of theis coming direct from emails sent from ebay to me.. I think it is disturbing, if you ask me.. What right do they have telling me what forms of payment I can receive...   However.. I do have to disagree on the reasons for the decline in listings to a point.. and this is it.. Look who are buying most of the vintage HO items.. The "Baby Boomers" They have not started to die off yet.. (sorry for my frankness)   They are starting to retire... I expect the market to be pretty much flooded in approximately 10-20 years.. By then, the people selling will be the younger generation (like me) who will be parting out their fathers and grand fathers collections. I know Brian and i have discussed this once or twice in the past and we both agree on this point.. don't know what else to add..   Sean --- On Wed, 8/27/08, mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@ aim.com> wrote: From: mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@ aim.com> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 6:00 PM Brian, My comments were based on a couple of things (and I confess that I did a paper for my post-grad work on eBay back in the late 1990s so I can be a bit tedious and for that I apologize) -- both of which have to do with the supply of items to eBay and the overall decline in the number of items being listed. Overall, in the Model railroad category, listings are down about 17-20% over last year at this time. Worse yet, in our subcateogory of HO, listings are down nearly 30% with slight increases in the O Gauge (Timplate) and G-scale categories. The reason is that the changes in eBay rules, designed to attract more buyers to the high-profit electronics and clothing areas (and full-size automobiles) has made it less desireable for the private seller to list items on eBay, especially used items that might not work or cause a less-than-knowledga ble buyer to complain, demand a refund, or leave negative feedback. Since sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers, the deck is stacked against the small- time seller. Already I have seen far fewer collections being sold in the Model Railroading category, and that is where a lot of the old collectible HO shows up. And since we are in a period of economic doldrums, we should be seeing more, not less items coming to the market. In 2001- 2002, when the economy slowed after 9/11, the number of listings in the Model Railroad category reached an all time hight of 117,000+ -- we are lucky to see 60,000 items listed on any given day right now. So, that is the dreary economics of it all. EBay, which once was my source of nearly 80% of my vintage HO collection, hasn't provided me with anything of note for nearly 6 months, and I am on it daily. This is just my opinion, but being a dreary economic analyst, I tend to keep track of statistics for no particular reason. Cheers! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Hi Matt, I am wondering why you say Ebay is "now in decline for us > collectors"? It seems to me that Ebay has a steady supply of all types of HO models. > It seems to me that as a collector, after you have acquired a certain item and > are no longer searching for it, the remaining sought after items grow fewer > and far between, making it seem like there is less available. I am an avid > brass collector from the very first imports to the latest, and I have come to a > point in my collecting that I keep seeing the same old stuff over and over > again. I feel as if there is very little left that I am interested in. This is > purely my perspective, I don't believe there is any more or any less being > listed, in the brass category anyway. I believe that like most collectors, at a > point, you try to refine your collection by selling off the lessor items and > finding prime examples of your more prized items. There are two constants in > life "death and taxes", some people seem to be able to avoid the tax part > (not me) but since we all have to go sometime, all of our prize collections > will, at some point, be sold off. Most likely in a forum like Ebay, thus > starting the cycle all over again. Sorry to go off topic, Brian L > > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7165	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

I found the MR review of the Pacific Traction wood cars. I will scan it at work tomorrow (if I don't forget to take it in tomorrow morning, the older I get the more I suffer from "CRS" syndrome {can't remember stuff}). If anyone wants to look it up, it was the December 1965 issue, in "trade topics". There were 8 narrow gauge cars, box cars, stock cars, reefers and two D&RGW cabeese, in standard gauge 10 single sheathed 40' box cars, 16 40' stock cars and 6 50' single sheathed door and a half auto cars. The address given was a PO box in San Diego. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:23 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Pacific Traction >> ....yesterday a block of Pacific Traction freight cars went for (to >> me!)high bids on eB... > > If memory serves, Pacific Traction was the same as Suydam. JP Barger > in Boston is the expert on this thread. > > > Denny S. Anspach MD > Okoboji, IA > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7166	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

Attached is a list of suppliers that I scanned from Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon. Most of you are probably familiar with the Lenahans' book, so you know this information is dated, 1975 to be exact.   Brian L   In a message dated 8/27/2008 9:04:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don.dellmann@... writes: I found the MR review of the Pacific Traction wood cars. I will scan it at work tomorrow (if I don't forget to take it in tomorrow morning, the older I get the more I suffer from "CRS" syndrome {can't remember stuff}). If anyone wants to look it up, it was the December 1965 issue, in "trade topics". There were 8 narrow gauge cars, box cars, stock cars, reefers and two D&RGW cabeese, in standard gauge 10 single sheathed 40' box cars, 16 40' stock cars and 6 50' single sheathed door and a half auto cars. The address given was a PO box in San Diego. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@macnexus. org> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:23 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Pacific Traction >> ....yesterday a block of Pacific Traction freight cars went for (to >> me!)high bids on eB... > > If memory serves, Pacific Traction was the same as Suydam. JP Barger > in Boston is the expert on this thread. > > > Denny S. Anspach MD > Okoboji, IA > > > > > > It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7167	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

Attachments : Sorry guys, it helps to attach the scans.   Attached is a list of suppliers that I scanned from Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon. Most of you are probably familiar with the Lenahans' book, so you know this information is dated, 1975 to be exact.   Brian L It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7168	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Brian,   Keith Wiseman of Wiseman Model Services is restarting Train Bids dot com, mainly because of the new rules at ebay, or as he put it, feebay.   I still do some selling on ebay, however, its getting more difficult with transportation costs and all, now gas prices are coming down, but you can bet that shipping costs won't.......:o)   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7169	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hello Howard,  Addressing you question as to whether I want to set a value for all vintage items -- I hadn't thought about that, but since you ask, the answer is yes -- even though that may be unrealistic to attempt to do.  I don't know how long you've been in the hobby of collecting vintage H0, but if its been a while, you may remember reading both the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains and the Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, as well as the Greenberg's Guide to Lionel H0.  All these GUIDES contain a very IMPORTANT and USEFUL element in them which concerns the VALUE OF EACH AND EVERY ITEM (in three separate categories of condition) that could possibly have a value set on them.  This very part of these guides proved extremely useful and the hard work we put into this portion of them was appreciated by most (if not all) of the collectors/readers of these guides.  If you're questioning the very value of these estimates and the usefulness they benefitted the readers with, then whatever happened to this concept in your way of thinking?  Wouldn't you like to know approximately what an item is worth if you were to bid on something, so as not to pay far too much, or not bid high enough to give you a chance to win an item?    I believe you may be incorrect on one statement -- If an item sells for for than I think it should go for, this does not necessarily mean that my estimate of the item's value is wrong.  There may well be 10 other bidders out there, all placing bids in the vicinity of this same valuation I believe an item is worth, but of course there's no way to know this on Ebay.  It is extremely possible for just two foolhardy, unknowledgeable or wealthy and uncaring (as to how much they spend) bidders to place bids far in excess of the true value of an item.  While in some respects, I find this unfair to those of us who either won't or can't pay much more than an items approximate true value, this practice will continue as long as there are desireable items put up on Ebay, and there are people willing to part with more than their fair share of money to obtain these items, making it difficult for the majority of the collectors to be able to purchase an item at its fair value, unless they too decide to spend much more money than an item is worth, as the only way to get it.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7170	From: Graeme	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

In message <483246.60639.qm@...>, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> writes >Hey, that's what fellow members are for. >  Thanks Tod. I have now been asked approximately how old the car is, and, inevitably, how much it is worth. Any thoughts? -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7171	From: Graeme	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

In message <001d01c90898$d4d882a0$6401a8c0@DON>, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> writes >From: "Graeme" <groups@...> >> >> Thank you, Tod and Don - that was quick! > >Queries like yours were one of the reasons I started the group, and I have >been thrilled that we've gotten the membership we have, who are willing to >share their knowledge. Thanks Don - my apologies; I did not realise that it was you who started the group. My main interest is tinplate 0 gauge, and am a member of several groups. It is the pleasure of sharing knowledge and friendship that makes the hobby worthwhile. > >I wish there had been the internet and a group like this back in the 1970's >when I had a brief fling with continental prototype and kept stumbling >across Hornby Dublo stuff. :-) Absolutely! What did we do before the Internet? I started with Hornby Dublo aged 8, in 1960, and have been adding to it ever since. The Dublo, and other H0/00 items are all sitting at boxes at present, while I play with 0 gauge. Completely off topic for this group, but this is how I amuse myself : http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/layouts/ogauge06/jul08/index.html Cheers, -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7172	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

It would not be Thomas. Thomas produced 10 roadnames of metal tank cars, and Mobilgas is not one of them.  Neither is it Mantua.  Mantua produced 12 roadnames in their embossed-cardboard-wrapper metal tank cars, and again, Mobilgas is not one of them.  My computer allowing me 5 second glimpes, I can see this car is numbered in the 8000 series.  Athearn produced 14 roadnames -- one of them being Mobilgas -- with ALL car numbers four-digit, all starting with an "8" -- 8006, 8030, 8088, etc.  While Globe also produced a Mobilgas road name in metal tank cars, their road numbers were all 3 digit, all starting with a "9" -- 916, 917, 918.  We have an Athearn metal tank car here.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7173	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/27/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

Athearn first started producing their 3 series of tank cars -- Single-Dome 8,000 Gallon, SingleDome 12,000 Gallon and Triple-Dome 12,000 Gallon -- in late 1949 - early 1950 through 1954.  Yours is a Single-Dome 12,000 Gallon tank car, and depending upon its condition (and the skill in which it was assembled) and whether it has an original box, it is worth approximately $20 - $25 in excellent condition (w/box).  A pristine car, professionally built would be worth up to $30 (w/box). For a car in good condition and no box, it would be worth approximately $15.  For a car in fair condition - $10, and for a car in poor condition - $5.  This assumes its complete (has trucks, but not necessarily couplers).  If it were a mint kit, it would be worth $30 - $35.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7174	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

It is my understanding that price guide values come from monitoring actual sales transactions.  If so, then by that formula, if actual sale prices go up (or down) for whatever reason, then doesn't that establish a new value?   I have used price guides more to tell me what is likely to be a hot item relative to another.  Or to be some sort of a weathervane.  If something is low priced and common, I know I can pass and another train (pun intended) will be coming down the tracks again.  But if something is shown as fifty times the normal, then maybe you have to think like the ebay moniker of "GoBigOrGoHome".   If a few bidders have deep pockets, and that is how most of the sales go, then that should define the value, which may be a new value based on events.  Events could be baby boomers getting to the point of life where they plenty of disposable income, baby boomers dying off flooding the market with things with fewer people hanging around who are hanging onto nostalgia, more or less effective ways to market or advertise, or the economy in general.  A price guide is only a bunch of data representing some point, or fairly small period, of time.   Now, a single sale doesn't define value unless perhaps it is one of a kind.  For example, I recently sold a Lucius Beebe book that you buy pretty easily for a couple hundred dollars for seven hundred where two characters were bidding each other up.  A few weeks later, I bought an equal quality copy for about a hundred.  (Wish I could do that all day, but this was a wild point, and probably just balancing out times I myself paid "too much").  So what's the "value"?   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Hello Howard,  Addressing you question as to whether I want to set a value for all vintage items -- I hadn't thought about that, but since you ask, the answer is yes -- even though that may be unrealistic to attempt to do.  I don't know how long you've been in the hobby of collecting vintage H0, but if its been a while, you may remember reading both the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains and the Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, as well as the Greenberg's Guide to Lionel H0.  All these GUIDES contain a very IMPORTANT and USEFUL element in them which concerns the VALUE OF EACH AND EVERY ITEM (in three separate categories of condition) that could possibly have a value set on them.  This very part of these guides proved extremely useful and the hard work we put into this portion of them was appreciated by most (if not all) of the collectors/readers of these guides.  If you're questioning the very value of these estimates and the usefulness they benefitted the readers with, then whatever happened to this concept in your way of thinking?  Wouldn't you like to know approximately what an item is worth if you were to bid on something, so as not to pay far too much, or not bid high enough to give you a chance to win an item?    I believe you may be incorrect on one statement -- If an item sells for for than I think it should go for, this does not necessarily mean that my estimate of the item's value is wrong.  There may well be 10 other bidders out there, all placing bids in the vicinity of this same valuation I believe an item is worth, but of course there's no way to know this on Ebay.  It is extremely possible for just two foolhardy, unknowledgeable or wealthy and uncaring (as to how much they spend) bidders to place bids far in excess of the true value of an item.  While in some respects, I find this unfair to those of us who either won't or can't pay much more than an items approximate true value, this practice will continue as long as there are desireable items put up on Ebay, and there are people willing to part with more than their fair share of money to obtain these items, making it difficult for the majority of the collectors to be able to purchase an item at its fair value, unless they too decide to spend much more money than an item is worth, as the only way to get it.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7175	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I have to agree with everything you said chuck!   Sean --- On Thu, 8/28/08, ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> wrote: From: ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 3:37 AM It is my understanding that price guide values come from monitoring actual sales transactions.  If so, then by that formula, if actual sale prices go up (or down) for whatever reason, then doesn't that establish a new value?   I have used price guides more to tell me what is likely to be a hot item relative to another.  Or to be some sort of a weathervane.  If something is low priced and common, I know I can pass and another train (pun intended) will be coming down the tracks again.  But if something is shown as fifty times the normal, then maybe you have to think like the ebay moniker of "GoBigOrGoHome" .   If a few bidders have deep pockets, and that is how most of the sales go, then that should define the value, which may be a new value based on events.  Events could be baby boomers getting to the point of life where they plenty of disposable income, baby boomers dying off flooding the market with things with fewer people hanging around who are hanging onto nostalgia, more or less effective ways to market or advertise, or the economy in general.  A price guide is only a bunch of data representing some point, or fairly small period, of time.   Now, a single sale doesn't define value unless perhaps it is one of a kind.  For example, I recently sold a Lucius Beebe book that you buy pretty easily for a couple hundred dollars for seven hundred where two characters were bidding each other up.  A few weeks later, I bought an equal quality copy for about a hundred.  (Wish I could do that all day, but this was a wild point, and probably just balancing out times I myself paid "too much").  So what's the "value"?   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@wmconnect. com To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Hello Howard,  Addressing you question as to whether I want to set a value for all vintage items -- I hadn't thought about that, but since you ask, the answer is yes -- even though that may be unrealistic to attempt to do.  I don't know how long you've been in the hobby of collecting vintage H0, but if its been a while, you may remember reading both the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains and the Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, as well as the Greenberg's Guide to Lionel H0.  All these GUIDES contain a very IMPORTANT and USEFUL element in them which concerns the VALUE OF EACH AND EVERY ITEM (in three separate categories of condition) that could possibly have a value set on them.  This very part of these guides proved extremely useful and the hard work we put into this portion of them was appreciated by most (if not all) of the collectors/readers of these guides.  If you're questioning the very value of these estimates and the usefulness they benefitted the readers with, then whatever happened to this concept in your way of thinking?  Wouldn't you like to know approximately what an item is worth if you were to bid on something, so as not to pay far too much, or not bid high enough to give you a chance to win an item?    I believe you may be incorrect on one statement -- If an item sells for for than I think it should go for, this does not necessarily mean that my estimate of the item's value is wrong.  There may well be 10 other bidders out there, all placing bids in the vicinity of this same valuation I believe an item is worth, but of course there's no way to know this on Ebay.  It is extremely possible for just two foolhardy, unknowledgeable or wealthy and uncaring (as to how much they spend) bidders to place bids far in excess of the true value of an item.  While in some respects, I find this unfair to those of us who either won't or can't pay much more than an items approximate true value, this practice will continue as long as there are desireable items put up on Ebay, and there are people willing to part with more than their fair share of money to obtain these items, making it difficult for the majority of the collectors to be able to purchase an item at its fair value, unless they too decide to spend much more money than an item is worth, as the only way to get it.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7176	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

Might it have a Red Ball tank wrapper? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Aug 28, 2008, at 1:06 AM, erieberk@... wrote: It would not be Thomas. Thomas produced 10 roadnames of metal tank cars, and Mobilgas is not one of them.  Neither is it Mantua.  Mantua produced 12 roadnames in their embossed-cardboard-wrapper metal tank cars, and again, Mobilgas is not one of them.  My computer allowing me 5 second glimpes, I can see this car is numbered in the 8000 series.  Athearn produced 14 roadnames -- one of them being Mobilgas -- with ALL car numbers four-digit, all starting with an "8" -- 8006, 8030, 8088, etc.  While Globe also produced a Mobilgas road name in metal tank cars, their road numbers were all 3 digit, all starting with a "9" -- 916, 917, 918.  We have an Athearn metal tank car here.  Ray W. _

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7177	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Chuck,  I think you just said it yourself, if you care to refelect on your previous post.  As I see it, price guide values do not come from monitoring actual sales transactions if these transactions are the action of two top bidders when they are bidding a good 25% or more over what the majority of the bidders are bidding (i.e., if everyone, lets say 12 or 14 people,  were bidding on a Penn Line Crusader for around an average bid of $1200, and two nuts bid up to $1600, this would not suddenly establish the value of this item at this price).  These types of transactions happen all too often on Ebay, when you consider that many of the rarer items, by the very nature of the word, are not that plentiful.   As you just got done saying, a single sale doesn't define the value of an item, yet these rarer items are never seen as multiple sales at any one time being offered by any number of sellers.  They are all single sale items offered at isolated times, very possibly bid on at a much reduced offering price by the average bidder.  Of course, we can never know what these average bidders ever offered, as that is the name of the game on Ebay, but the many moanings by these bidders afterwards (who represent the majority of the prospective buyers), of the vast difference in price they had in mind and the price this two nuts were willing to bid up to in their competition should tell you that these winning bids are often far (or at least somewhat) out of line. Your use of the price guides as a weathervane is just how they should be used, as they show the approximate value of what an item is worth.  Notice, I've always said -- "approximate," as we all know these prices are subject to chance -- but at least these guides give you a ball park figure at which to start out from. Deep pockets do not define value.  You would not want to walk into  a new car showroom expecting to pay $24,000 for car X, and suddenly someone with deep pockets comes in and plunks down $30,000 establishing THIS as the NEW PRICE. At least with shows, you could sometimes negotiate the price especially if you were buying several items from this same vendor, and just as often have the price on the original item reduced because of that.  I'm not saying this has anything to do with an established price of an item (except that to be considered reduced, it must have had an established price to begin with).  Same thing goes when buying a car (with an established price).  Depending on the options you add, the original price may be reduced.  There is no possibility for any price negotiation with an Ebay seller when buying multiple items from him (except for combining the shipping).  While this last point has nothing to do with an established price, I bring this up only to demonstrate a benefit of dealing with a show vendor over trying to outbid some nuts on Ebay with deep pockets.  The annual salary of a relatively few people making $300,000 per year vs. an average salary of many at $75,000 to $90,000 per year should have nothing to do with establishing a price, yet this is where the unfairness to these many average people (with a pre-established value of an item) comes out. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7178	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Identify Mobilgas tank car? > Might it have a Red Ball tank wrapper? > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA It's an Athearn. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7179	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

Might be a possibility, if the car number matched, and if Red Ball made a Mobilgas tank car.  Perhaps Graeme can further fill us in on this car's description of being a "tin tank on a diecast frame," and whether it even used a wrapper of any kind.  To the best of my knowledge, Red Ball made but a very few tank cars and many of those were of an unconventional style.  Those that are found in my Red Ball catalogs include: No. K-4 It Stinks & Howe Acid Tank Car No. K-78 Borden's Milk Tank Car No. K-87 Monsanto Nitric Acid Tank Car No. K-126 Overland Oil & Transportation (actually, a box car configuration with a large "steel" tank slung underneath it) Sinclair 8000 Gallon Single-Dome Tank Car M.W. Domestic Water Only 8000 Gallon Single-Dome Tank Car My info may be incomplete, so any additions are welcome, but getting back to this car's construction, an indication of any possible wrapper would be of help.  So far, it appears that its an Athearn when noting the car number as at least some identifying reference.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7180	From: Graeme	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

In message <c69.35c9d416.35e7f842@...>, erieberk@... writes >Might be a possibility, if the car number matched, and if Red Ball made a >Mobilgas tank car.  Perhaps Graeme can further fill us in on this car's >description of being a "tin tank on a diecast frame," and whether it even >used a wrapper of any kind. Ray, I'm sorry, I have not seen the car - just the photo. The original query is from a friend of a friend, so information is limited, which does not help. Cheers, -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7181	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

You can add -- Union Starch Syrup to the Single-Dome Red Ball tank cars.  I KNEW I should have looked further, but was just too lazy to do so.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7182	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Ray,   I have read a couple of your posts on this topic and I have not chosen to respond only because I am not sure as to how.. Please do not take offence.. it is not meant ot be  in any way...so, here goes...   I am troubled by the use of the word "fair". If by my chosing to pay 25% - 50% over the going rate for an item, (which I rarely do anyway) I fail to see where that is unfair.. To who? My bidding (or anyone elses) on an item is by no means an attempt to be unfair to anyone.. It kind of reminds me of when i was a teenager and was sucker-punched by Buddy B. He hit me right square in the eyes as soon as I turned his direction.. It was the only punch he got in.. I blocked each additional throw and matched it with a jab of mine which hit it's mark each time, squarely on his nose... After the 5-6th punch of his and jab of mine, his nose was broken.. As he clutched his nose with both hands, he yelled out "UNFAIR!".  To this day... I can not understand this reaction of his.  (This is the only part where these two topics relate.)  It would be unfair to me to pass on an item or to not bid fully what It was worth to me... and consequently lose it to someone else who bid the most they were willing to spend.. No one else is looking out for me in that regard, so why should I not bid my max?  In any case.. My average sallery per year is far less than $75,000... It just depends where we chose to spend out extra cash..   Certain engines I am willing to the going rates for, but rarely do. These being all early Varney and Mantua steam engines.. I bid on what I have seen the past 2-3 going for.. and that is it...  I do not use old out-of-print references to try to get an idea as to the current value of an item.  They are great in their own right, but if they are over a year old.. that are pretty poor references as to establishing the true value of an item.. This is where i have to agree with Chuck... You have to go with the most receint sales... I would say 10 sales, throw out one high and one low and take the average off of the remaining 8 to get a true current value... If that means you have to look at individual listings of an item that comes up once or twice every couple of months.. then so be it.. If it is an item that comes up once a year.. than 10 is too many.. allot can happen over 10 years, therefore I would not look past the third previous listing (or an auction house or train show). I would throw out again the high and low (if they are way off and look at the middle one to establish my bid..     Got to go... out in the field to measure a coal miners pond and disturbance area today..   Sean --- On Thu, 8/28/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 7:59 AM Hi Chuck,  I think you just said it yourself, if you care to refelect on your previous post.  As I see it, price guide values do not come from monitoring actual sales transactions if these transactions are the action of two top bidders when they are bidding a good 25% or more over what the majority of the bidders are bidding (i.e., if everyone, lets say 12 or 14 people,  were bidding on a Penn Line Crusader for around an average bid of $1200, and two nuts bid up to $1600, this would not suddenly establish the value of this item at this price).  These types of transactions happen all too often on Ebay, when you consider that many of the rarer items, by the very nature of the word, are not that plentiful.   As you just got done saying, a single sale doesn't define the value of an item, yet these rarer items are never seen as multiple sales at any one time being offered by any number of sellers.  They are all single sale items offered at isolated times, very possibly bid on at a much reduced offering price by the average bidder.  Of course, we can never know what these average bidders ever offered, as that is the name of the game on Ebay, but the many moanings by these bidders afterwards (who represent the majority of the prospective buyers), of the vast difference in price they had in mind and the price this two nuts were willing to bid up to in their competition should tell you that these winning bids are often far (or at least somewhat) out of line. Your use of the price guides as a weathervane is just how they should be used, as they show the approximate value of what an item is worth.  Notice, I've always said -- "approximate, " as we all know these prices are subject to chance -- but at least these guides give you a ball park figure at which to start out from. Deep pockets do not define value.  You would not want to walk into  a new car showroom expecting to pay $24,000 for car X, and suddenly someone with deep pockets comes in and plunks down $30,000 establishing THIS as the NEW PRICE. At least with shows, you could sometimes negotiate the price especially if you were buying several items from this same vendor, and just as often have the price on the original item reduced because of that.  I'm not saying this has anything to do with an established price of an item (except that to be considered reduced, it must have had an established price to begin with).  Same thing goes when buying a car (with an established price).  Depending on the options you add, the original price may be reduced.  There is no possibility for any price negotiation with an Ebay seller when buying multiple items from him (except for combining the shipping).  While this last point has nothing to do with an established price, I bring this up only to demonstrate a benefit of dealing with a show vendor over trying to outbid some nuts on Ebay with deep pockets.  The annual salary of a relatively few people making $300,000 per year vs. an average salary of many at $75,000 to $90,000 per year should have nothing to do with establishing a price, yet this is where the unfairness to these many average people (with a pre-established value of an item) comes out. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7183	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: DMC E unit 2nd type

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                        In an effort to conserve available space on the site I will be sending less pictures. After today it will probably be one picture. I will not be sending paperwork (diagrams, Assembly sheets, etc.)        If you or any one else would like these contact me off list and I will try to accommodate you. Unless that turns out to be a 100 request for same paperwork.               Back to trains and DMC (Dallas Model Craft). This is what I call the 2nd run. I have no dates for when either was produced, just the date either engine first produced. This engine has the same materials as the first, except the back piece used for the superstructure is now aluminum. It's shape is somewhat altered in how it attaches because of a different drive used in this production. I know this "second" run to be original as I have seen pictures of an original kit laid out piece by piece showing this drive.                One of the big differences,and I hope captured in the photo is that now the sides are embossed metal (aluminum of some kind I think). Like the previous paper sided engine the Santa Fe Warbonnet scheme is used. You are limited as to what to paint this engine.                The biggest change is the drive. It is now a pulley / O ring drive  with both trucks powered. Picture will show better then I can.              Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7184	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Just to clarify a couple of things.  When I said "single sale", I did not mean single versus multiple auction.  I meant a single sale over some protracted time period (like perhaps a year or more).  You see something like a PFM Frisco 2-10-0 with regularity so I would not put it in a "single sale" status, although every ebay auction is for just one.   I don't understand your comments that you can't know what other bidders have bid on ebay.  You can look at the bidding history and it shows all bids.  The only unknown is the winning bidder's bid.  It could be any amount above the minimum amount over the next highest bidder necessary to win.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:59 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Hi Chuck,  I think you just said it yourself, if you care to refelect on your previous post.  As I see it, price guide values do not come from monitoring actual sales transactions if these transactions are the action of two top bidders when they are bidding a good 25% or more over what the majority of the bidders are bidding (i.e., if everyone, lets say 12 or 14 people,  were bidding on a Penn Line Crusader for around an average bid of $1200, and two nuts bid up to $1600, this would not suddenly establish the value of this item at this price).  These types of transactions happen all too often on Ebay, when you consider that many of the rarer items, by the very nature of the word, are not that plentiful.   As you just got done saying, a single sale doesn't define the value of an item, yet these rarer items are never seen as multiple sales at any one time being offered by any number of sellers.  They are all single sale items offered at isolated times, very possibly bid on at a much reduced offering price by the average bidder.  Of course, we can never know what these average bidders ever offered, as that is the name of the game on Ebay, but the many moanings by these bidders afterwards (who represent the majority of the prospective buyers), of the vast difference in price they had in mind and the price this two nuts were willing to bid up to in their competition should tell you that these winning bids are often far (or at least somewhat) out of line. Your use of the price guides as a weathervane is just how they should be used, as they show the approximate value of what an item is worth.  Notice, I've always said -- "approximate, " as we all know these prices are subject to chance -- but at least these guides give you a ball park figure at which to start out from. Deep pockets do not define value.  You would not want to walk into  a new car showroom expecting to pay $24,000 for car X, and suddenly someone with deep pockets comes in and plunks down $30,000 establishing THIS as the NEW PRICE. At least with shows, you could sometimes negotiate the price especially if you were buying several items from this same vendor, and just as often have the price on the original item reduced because of that.  I'm not saying this has anything to do with an established price of an item (except that to be considered reduced, it must have had an established price to begin with).  Same thing goes when buying a car (with an established price).  Depending on the options you add, the original price may be reduced.  There is no possibility for any price negotiation with an Ebay seller when buying multiple items from him (except for combining the shipping).  While this last point has nothing to do with an established price, I bring this up only to demonstrate a benefit of dealing with a show vendor over trying to outbid some nuts on Ebay with deep pockets.  The annual salary of a relatively few people making $300,000 per year vs. an average salary of many at $75,000 to $90,000 per year should have nothing to do with establishing a price, yet this is where the unfairness to these many average people (with a pre-established value of an item) comes out. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7185	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type

Jim, The pictures you include with your postings do not affect the sites space as they are not saved by Yahoo. Only the pictures you put in the photos section use available space. If I understand Yahoo groups parameters correctly, there is no limitation (or a very big one) on the files section. You could put your photos in a folder (or several, like one folder or subfolder for each product line) in the files section with out adversely affecting the site's available space. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Gerold, > In an effort to conserve available space on the site I will be sending less pictures. After today it will probably be one picture. I will not be sending paperwork (diagrams, Assembly sheets, etc.) If you or any one else would like these contact me off list and I will try to accommodate you. Unless that turns out to be a 100 request for same paperwork.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7186	From: Chris B	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type

Jim, I posted all the GARCO Baker pictures to the site only so those that couldn't see them in email could help in the identification if they wanted to.  Also to conserve space on the site, I'll pull them off tomorrow, now that the question I asked originally has been answered as well as I could hope. thanks for your help with the puzzle, Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 9:28:13 AM Subject: [vintageHO] DMC E unit 2nd type Hi Gerold,                        In an effort to conserve available space on the site I will be sending less pictures. After today it will probably be one picture. I will not be sending paperwork (diagrams, Assembly sheets, etc.)        If you or any one else would like these contact me off list and I will try to accommodate you. Unless that turns out to be a 100 request for same paperwork.               Back to trains and DMC (Dallas Model Craft). This is what I call the 2nd run. I have no dates for when either was produced, just the date either engine first produced. This engine has the same materials as the first, except the back piece used for the superstructure is now aluminum. It's shape is somewhat altered in how it attaches because of a different drive used in this production. I know this "second" run to be original as I have seen pictures of an original kit laid out piece by piece showing this drive.                One of the big differences, and I hope captured in the photo is that now the sides are embossed metal (aluminum of some kind I think). Like the previous paper sided engine the Santa Fe Warbonnet scheme is used. You are limited as to what to paint this engine.                The biggest change is the drive. It is now a pulley / O ring drive  with both trucks powered. Picture will show better then I can.              Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7187	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Sean,  Will catch you later on this when you come back from the field.  There is no offense taken from your post, and I read it with much interest. When using the term "unfair" I realized that it may not have been the exact word I was looking to use, and had wrestled with using it.  But the context of my meaning of it is that, even though any bidder is of course entitled to place a bid of any denomination he so chooses (with him being considered as being unfair to anyone), this bidding procedure causes an unfair advantage to those (most) of us not having deep pockets, keeping in mind that someone with such deep pockets is able to place a bid far in excess of what most other bidders consider an item to be worth (and I'm not talking of just a relatively minor difference of just $50 or so on a rare item, which anyone has an opportunity to make up this difference if he so chooses). When I used $75,000 per year as a salary for an average collector, please keep in mind this was just an example vs. that salary of someone making $300,000 (again, just an example) per year.  I could have (and thought of) using $30,000 (or $25,000) per year, but then I half expected I would get responses that most people make more than that now.  I how you get my drift in the salary spread I was trying to make. Agreed, out-of-print valuations -- such as those found in the various Greenberg's Guides I brought up are useless, at least by themselves.  They only serve (but do serve) in comparing those values to other H0 items collected duing that period, and to get an idea of how much something was worth in the money of that time.  To be more up to date, newer valuations need to be established on anything you consider buying, which is where the willingness of what the average collector would condier paying comes into play. I go along with you, and agree that what the average of the sum of what 10 collectors would pay for an item would reflect what that item is now considered to be worth, would be a fair and equitable estimate of what an item's value could be established at.  I would go beyond removing just the 1st highest bidder's value though, as most often he has just barely outbid the next highest bidder -- who probably also had dep pockets if the item is viewed by most as going excessively high.  I might also delete the two lowest bidders, knowing that there are often a few who try to get an item for a song. One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as there are people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of these rarer items will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite possibly far in excess to what they may be worth to this average bidder group we have both just discussed, and also quite possibly well beyond the means of the average collector.  In that respect, the factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct disadvantage which in my estimation is about the same as saying this bidding system can sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that.  I would rather be offered the option of whether I wanted to buy an item based on a set price as compared to what is considered to be that items value by what has been establish by the estimates of the majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a position to be able to have less value for his money.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7188	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Attachments : Sean, I left out a point I was going to make in our discussion of old out-of-print valuations -- which we need to update as time goes on -- and which, if I'm not mistaken, you're taking this same stance.  You'll note that with another discussion that has gone on here on the dispostion of the Mobilgas tank car, that I used today's value for this car, and not that found in the now outdated Greenberg's Athearn Guide with which I had a large hand in composing.  While I gave today's value for this car here, and what it is to be worth to the most average collector here, this would still not preclude anyone wanting it bad enough to place a bid for $45 for it if it came up on Ebay -- if they wanted it bad enough -- effectively shutting the rest of us out, by far.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7189	From: Chris B	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Ray, Sean, fwiw, here's my 4 cents on value guides, fair prices, and auctions.   It might be useful to remember this is not an issue unique to train collecting, but has been an ongoing story for many decades in collecting everything from antique cars; to 2 hundred years of London & NYC auction house sales price histories in selling antique furniture; to centuries of price history values for collecting fine art and antiquities all over the world.    Here's a longwinded personal example of what I mean by the long term impact of time on collectible values/prices.    When I was young and couldn't afford to collect HO brass even though it was cheap and new at that time, I was an apprentice cabinetmaker learning to restore fine 18th century American furniture worth many thousands of dollars for major museums and federal govt buildings.    The standard collector guides to american antique furniture that included price estimates have been published annually for over a century.  They reflect both shop prices and auction prices, but it's hard to say if they represent "fair" prices or "true" value, even for the time they were published.   I started tracking the values listed at that time for certain less valuable/in demand furniture from various later periods in american antique furniture, including Art Deco (1920) and American Empire(1810).    One example I can think of is that what is called american Pilgrim Century furniture (late 1600's) was nearly priceless before WWII at auctions and shops, and dropped in value steeply ever since.   In 40 years, some of the Art Deco pieces I bought then have gone up considerably, but I have no intention of ever selling them.  All of the American Empire pieces have been sold at a small loss by now, they never appreciated, for various subjective reasons, even though they were all completely hand made by skilled craftsman trained in the 18th century tradition, while the Art Deco pieces are all veneered factory made assembly line items.    Those who are TCA collectors are more familiar with the model train version of this, with what's happened to lionel values since many rare pieces have been reproduced, or the values of HO brass steam since HO plastic steam has become so much more equivalent in appearance with improved performance.   Rich people can always pay more for something they want then less affluent people, I know we all recognize that as obvious.  What the history of antique collecting and price/values does also tell us is that certain items go up in value for a time when an affluent group seeks them en masse, and then pretty rapidly drop in value when that group has passed on.  Other items sometimes never go up, and may even go down.   Value is subjective, sales prices are a matter of record.    Back to my seat in the back row, Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:43:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Hi Sean,  Will catch you later on this when you come back from the field.  There is no offense taken from your post, and I read it with much interest. When using the term "unfair" I realized that it may not have been the exact word I was looking to use, and had wrestled with using it.  But the context of my meaning of it is that, even though any bidder is of course entitled to place a bid of any denomination he so chooses (with him being considered as being unfair to anyone), this bidding procedure causes an unfair advantage to those (most) of us not having deep pockets, keeping in mind that someone with such deep pockets is able to place a bid far in excess of what most other bidders consider an item to be worth (and I'm not talking of just a relatively minor difference of just $50 or so on a rare item, which anyone has an opportunity to make up this difference if he so chooses). When I used $75,000 per year as a salary for an average collector, please keep in mind this was just an example vs. that salary of someone making $300,000 (again, just an example) per year.  I could have (and thought of) using $30,000 (or $25,000) per year, but then I half expected I would get responses that most people make more than that now.  I how you get my drift in the salary spread I was trying to make. Agreed, out-of-print valuations -- such as those found in the various Greenberg's Guides I brought up are useless, at least by themselves.  They only serve (but do serve) in comparing those values to other H0 items collected duing that period, and to get an idea of how much something was worth in the money of that time.  To be more up to date, newer valuations need to be established on anything you consider buying, which is where the willingness of what the average collector would condier paying comes into play. I go along with you, and agree that what the average of the sum of what 10 collectors would pay for an item would reflect what that item is now considered to be worth, would be a fair and equitable estimate of what an item's value could be established at.  I would go beyond removing just the 1st highest bidder's value though, as most often he has just barely outbid the next highest bidder -- who probably also had dep pockets if the item is viewed by most as going excessively high.  I might also delete the two lowest bidders, knowing that there are often a few who try to get an item for a song. One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as there are people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of these rarer items will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite possibly far in excess to what they may be worth to this average bidder group we have both just discussed, and also quite possibly well beyond the means of the average collector.  In that respect, the factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct disadvantage which in my estimation is about the same as saying this bidding system can sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that.  I would rather be offered the option of whether I wanted to buy an item based on a set price as compared to what is considered to be that items value by what has been establish by the estimates of the majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a position to be able to have less value for his money.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7190	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Chuck,  Thanks for the clarification on single sale status vs. multiple auction. Thanks also for pointing out (and being in question) of my saying you can't know what other prospective buyers are bidding.  I do realize now that bid histories can be looked up, but not using that feature very much (having difficulties in doing so) and not being very familiar with how to go about it because of my limited computer skills, I had temporarily forgotten about it; thanks for the reminder.  With that in mind, it could then been seen by most of the bidders able to navigate it, just what the average bidder is submitting as a dollar number.  Many such bids I'm sure may not be too far behind the top bidder, when the feature is used to allow Ebay to do your bidding up to a certain value, even though some may get shut out early because of their low ceiling in this.  But some top bidders disregard this Ebay option and choose to place their own top bid, which may be much higher than any of the average bidders' offers.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7191	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I think what sets prices isn't necessarily if an item is "rare" or "old" or "beautiful to look at".   I think it is more often some emotional connection.  Most often it is some nostalgic connection to our formative years (in high school you couldn't have the 57 chevy that the football quarterback had who got all the girls) or some mob fad mentality (Beanie Babies).   I'm guessing that those with into Vintage HO probably have an average age above fifty (of course, the definition of "vintage" will no doubt change as many things bought today will be tomorrows "vintage".  That means that in the next 15 years or so, most items now considered "vintage" will be coming up for sale, but there will be fewer and fewer buyers driven by the nostalgia.  Prices will likely flatten, then plummet.   So my advice is to eat well and exercise so you can wait everybody out and rake in a ton of stuff cheap when the glut hits the market.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Ray, Sean, fwiw, here's my 4 cents on value guides, fair prices, and auctions.   It might be useful to remember this is not an issue unique to train collecting, but has been an ongoing story for many decades in collecting everything from antique cars; to 2 hundred years of London & NYC auction house sales price histories in selling antique furniture; to centuries of price history values for collecting fine art and antiquities all over the world.    Here's a longwinded personal example of what I mean by the long term impact of time on collectible values/prices.    When I was young and couldn't afford to collect HO brass even though it was cheap and new at that time, I was an apprentice cabinetmaker learning to restore fine 18th century American furniture worth many thousands of dollars for major museums and federal govt buildings.    The standard collector guides to american antique furniture that included price estimates have been published annually for over a century.  They reflect both shop prices and auction prices, but it's hard to say if they represent "fair" prices or "true" value, even for the time they were published.   I started tracking the values listed at that time for certain less valuable/in demand furniture from various later periods in american antique furniture, including Art Deco (1920) and American Empire(1810) .    One example I can think of is that what is called american Pilgrim Century furniture (late 1600's) was nearly priceless before WWII at auctions and shops, and dropped in value steeply ever since.   In 40 years, some of the Art Deco pieces I bought then have gone up considerably, but I have no intention of ever selling them.  All of the American Empire pieces have been sold at a small loss by now, they never appreciated, for various subjective reasons, even though they were all completely hand made by skilled craftsman trained in the 18th century tradition, while the Art Deco pieces are all veneered factory made assembly line items.    Those who are TCA collectors are more familiar with the model train version of this, with what's happened to lionel values since many rare pieces have been reproduced, or the values of HO brass steam since HO plastic steam has become so much more equivalent in appearance with improved performance.   Rich people can always pay more for something they want then less affluent people, I know we all recognize that as obvious.  What the history of antique collecting and price/values does also tell us is that certain items go up in value for a time when an affluent group seeks them en masse, and then pretty rapidly drop in value when that group has passed on.  Other items sometimes never go up, and may even go down.   Value is subjective, sales prices are a matter of record.    Back to my seat in the back row, Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:43:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Hi Sean,  Will catch you later on this when you come back from the field.  There is no offense taken from your post, and I read it with much interest. When using the term "unfair" I realized that it may not have been the exact word I was looking to use, and had wrestled with using it.  But the context of my meaning of it is that, even though any bidder is of course entitled to place a bid of any denomination he so chooses (with him being considered as being unfair to anyone), this bidding procedure causes an unfair advantage to those (most) of us not having deep pockets, keeping in mind that someone with such deep pockets is able to place a bid far in excess of what most other bidders consider an item to be worth (and I'm not talking of just a relatively minor difference of just $50 or so on a rare item, which anyone has an opportunity to make up this difference if he so chooses). When I used $75,000 per year as a salary for an average collector, please keep in mind this was just an example vs. that salary of someone making $300,000 (again, just an example) per year.  I could have (and thought of) using $30,000 (or $25,000) per year, but then I half expected I would get responses that most people make more than that now.  I how you get my drift in the salary spread I was trying to make. Agreed, out-of-print valuations -- such as those found in the various Greenberg's Guides I brought up are useless, at least by themselves.  They only serve (but do serve) in comparing those values to other H0 items collected duing that period, and to get an idea of how much something was worth in the money of that time.  To be more up to date, newer valuations need to be established on anything you consider buying, which is where the willingness of what the average collector would condier paying comes into play. I go along with you, and agree that what the average of the sum of what 10 collectors would pay for an item would reflect what that item is now considered to be worth, would be a fair and equitable estimate of what an item's value could be established at.  I would go beyond removing just the 1st highest bidder's value though, as most often he has just barely outbid the next highest bidder -- who probably also had dep pockets if the item is viewed by most as going excessively high.  I might also delete the two lowest bidders, knowing that there are often a few who try to get an item for a song. One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as there are people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of these rarer items will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite possibly far in excess to what they may be worth to this average bidder group we have both just discussed, and also quite possibly well beyond the means of the average collector.  In that respect, the factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct disadvantage which in my estimation is about the same as saying this bidding system can sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that.  I would rather be offered the option of whether I wanted to buy an item based on a set price as compared to what is considered to be that items value by what has been establish by the estimates of the majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a position to be able to have less value for his money.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7192	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type

Thanks. No problem. Glad to help. Did not try to learn things to be quiet but to share.     Anytime    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DMC E unit 2nd type Jim, I posted all the GARCO Baker pictures to the site only so those that couldn't see them in email could help in the identification if they wanted to.  Also to conserve space on the site, I'll pull them off tomorrow, now that the question I asked originally has been answered as well as I could hope. thanks for your help with the puzzle, Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 9:28:13 AM Subject: [vintageHO] DMC E unit 2nd type Hi Gerold,                        In an effort to conserve available space on the site I will be sending less pictures. After today it will probably be one picture. I will not be sending paperwork (diagrams, Assembly sheets, etc.)        If you or any one else would like these contact me off list and I will try to accommodate you. Unless that turns out to be a 100 request for same paperwork.               Back to trains and DMC (Dallas Model Craft). This is what I call the 2nd run. I have no dates for when either was produced, just the date either engine first produced. This engine has the same materials as the first, except the back piece used for the superstructure is now aluminum. It's shape is somewhat altered in how it attaches because of a different drive used in this production. I know this "second" run to be original as I have seen pictures of an original kit laid out piece by piece showing this drive.                One of the big differences, and I hope captured in the photo is that now the sides are embossed metal (aluminum of some kind I think). Like the previous paper sided engine the Santa Fe Warbonnet scheme is used. You are limited as to what to paint this engine.                The biggest change is the drive. It is now a pulley / O ring drive  with both trucks powered. Picture will show better then I can.              Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7193	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type

John ,            Thanks for your response. I don't want to mess up the site because I'm not up to exactly how to use. I just thought sharing the information helpful to all.            While a good site member friend, Chuck Higdon, is helping me post the pictures in an album he is now going to size them to take less space. Nice guy as all are.           Let me get this straight. If I post 2 pictures, one of the engine and one of any paperwork to back it up my statements, but only post the engine picture in the album,Yahoo makes the second picture of the paperwork go away with no loss of site space. Right.                                                                            Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:21 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC E unit 2nd type Jim, The pictures you include with your postings do not affect the sites space as they are not saved by Yahoo. Only the pictures you put in the photos section use available space. If I understand Yahoo groups parameters correctly, there is no limitation (or a very big one) on the files section. You could put your photos in a folder (or several, like one folder or subfolder for each product line) in the files section with out adversely affecting the site's available space. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Hi Gerold, > In an effort to conserve available space on the site I will be sending less pictures. After today it will probably be one picture. I will not be sending paperwork (diagrams, Assembly sheets, etc.) If you or any one else would like these contact me off list and I will try to accommodate you. Unless that turns out to be a 100 request for same paperwork.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7194	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

Attachments : Here's a scan of the review of the Pacific Traction WOODEN cars from 1965. Anyone who actually saw the eBay auction can confirm if these are actually what they were. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Cc: <nelson@...> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Pacific Traction >I found the MR review of the Pacific Traction wood cars. I will scan it at > work tomorrow (if I don't forget to take it in tomorrow morning, the older > I > get the more I suffer from "CRS" syndrome {can't remember stuff}). > > If anyone wants to look it up, it was the December 1965 issue, in "trade > topics". > > There were 8 narrow gauge cars, box cars, stock cars, reefers and two > D&RGW > cabeese, in standard gauge 10 single sheathed 40' box cars, 16 40' stock > cars and 6 50' single sheathed door and a half auto cars. > > The address given was a PO box in San Diego. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:23 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Pacific Traction > > >>> ....yesterday a block of Pacific Traction freight cars went for (to >>> me!)high bids on eB... >> >> If memory serves, Pacific Traction was the same as Suydam. JP Barger >> in Boston is the expert on this thread. >> >> >> Denny S. Anspach MD >> Okoboji, IA >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7195	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Last of Garco paper

Jim Heckard wrote: > Chris, > They do look close but I don't think exactly the same. > If I remember, and I don't have right in front of me, the H-M engines > had drives and sideframes by UMPCO (only wrote this a couple of days > ago and forget what it stands for). This is why I try to take my time > to ID anything. There were a number of companies produced a 6 wheel, > brass, pulley/ belt drive, with fly wheel like Walthers for one. You > saw GARCO 4 wheel tuck drive unit similar. Since I don't know what > type of engine they first made it could have been a model with 6 wheel > trucks. Who knows. ANDECO (Anderson and Co.) also comes to mind. > While some ID 's pop out not all do. To much out there. As I said I > will follow upon it as time allows so it could be a couple of days. > Maybe someone out there recognizes it already. > Jim > I remember ANDECO only in conjunction with trolley/ interurban trucks, allegedly they were superior to anything else available then. I only have one car with an Andeco truck ( which I never ran farther than once back and forth the test track) so I feel I am no expert on the topic. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7196	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

> > > One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as > there are people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of > these rarer items will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite > possibly far in excess to what they may be worth to this average > bidder group we have both just discussed, and also quite possibly well > beyond the means of the average collector. In that respect, the > factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item > regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct > disadvantage which in my estimation is about the same as saying this > bidding system can sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that. I > would rather be offered the option of whether I wanted to buy an item > based on a set price as compared to what is considered to be that > items value by what has been establish by the estimates of the > majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a position > to be able to have less value for his money. Have followed the eBay discussion with interest, I am impressed by the discipline of the contributors - on other lists this has ended with flaming and the forced ending of the topic. I wont bore you with my personal attitude to ebay, or my experiences - just one thought regarding the "unfair" advantage of wealthy collectors. *We* have an tremendous advantage , and I doubt many of those money types have it too... its often possible to get an desirable item that was mislabeled, poorly photographed, put in the wrong category *if* you have the knowledge to identify a model you look for , by only having some vague identification... and , to some degree, if you take the risk to bid on something worthless. I think I have bought a good part of my collection this way... buying incomplete models in the hope the missing parts may show up some day, bidding on things I only guessed what they were.... and most of the time I had luck. Maybe the guys with the big bank accounts get the pristine models - but if you are not shy to tinker you may be not far behind, at a fraction of the cost. Some of you may already know I am not an native English speaker, hope I have been able to express my thoughts. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7197	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote: >... > It is extremely possible for just two foolhardy, unknowledgeable or wealthy and uncaring (as to how much they spend) bidders to place bids far in excess of the true value of an item. While in some respects, I find this unfair to those of us who either won't or can't pay much more than an items approximate true value,... . > If person A is ready, willing and able to pay 2x, and person B is ready, willing and able to pay only 1x, how is that in any way unfair to person B. There is no "true value". Value is the price negotiated at arms' length between a willing seller and a willing buyer. Price guides are no more than that, guides. I may be willing to offer 1/2 the "value" stated in a price guide or twice the "value", but that is my decision and it is not unfair to anyone. I may offer to sell at 1/2 that "value" or twice that "value", and my decision is not unfair to anyone. That is how a marketplace functions. That is my philosophy. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7198	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

If what you say is then the case, why then does nearly EVERYONE gripe when gasoline went over $4.00 per gallon, and you're spending 20% more at the grocery store?  Should we instead fork over whatever is being charged, with a smile on our face, happily looking forward to more of this, only as its expected?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7199	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Fwd: [sherline] News: Oso has acquired NorthWest Short Line

Now we know....... Those folks might be a good match. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Begin forwarded message: From: "David Rygmyr" <davidry@...> Date: August 28, 2008 6:03:16 PM CDT To: <sherline@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [sherline] News: Oso has acquired NorthWest Short Line Reply-To: sherline@yahoogroups.com I know many on this list are model railroaders, so I wanted to make a quick mention that Oso has acquired Seattle-based NorthWest Short Line in its entirety. Part of the company has already been moved to our facility in Hamilton, MT, and the rest will follow within the next couple of weeks. Founder Raoul Martin was looking to retire and so their product output has been waning over the last few years; we intend to reverse that and get things back on line. NWSL specializes in aftermarket model railroad parts, especially wheelsets, axles, gearboxes, plus a line of tools for the advanced model craftsman. We manufacture virtually everything here in our own machine shop; we even do plastic injection molding for gearbox housings, driveline couplings, etc. I'm keeping my Sherline's but NWSL has all sorts of good toys such as Traub, Myford, South Bend, Hamilton, and Hurco. Thanks, and my apologies if this is too far off topic. Dave Rygmyr NorthWest Short Line (www.nwsl.com) Oso Publishing & Evergreen Hill Designs (www.osorail.com) ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/ <*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/join    (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:    mailto:sherline-digest@yahoogroups.com    mailto:sherline-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    sherline-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7200	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Northwest Shortline

To change the subject a little, I'm forwarding an email regarding Northwest Shortline, which some of you may know has changed ownership. There is contact information at the bottom. Brian L.   Subject: [sherline] News: Oso has acquired NorthWest Short Line I know many on this list are model railroaders, so I wanted to make a quick mention that Oso has acquired Seattle-based NorthWest Short Line in its entirety. Part of the company has already been moved to our facility in Hamilton, MT, and the rest will follow within the next couple of weeks. Founder Raoul Martin was looking to retire and so their product output has been waning over the last few years; we intend to reverse that and get things back on line. NWSL specializes in aftermarket model railroad parts, especially wheelsets, axles, gearboxes, plus a line of tools for the advanced model craftsman. We manufacture virtually everything here in our own machine shop; we even do plastic injection molding for gearbox housings, driveline couplings, etc. I'm keeping my Sherline's but NWSL has all sorts of good toys such as Traub, Myford, South Bend, Hamilton, and Hurco. Thanks, and my apologies if this is too far off topic. Dave Rygmyr NorthWest Short Line (www.nwsl.com) Oso Publishing & Evergreen Hill Designs (www.osorail. com) It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7201	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/28/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

Interesting that the "Pacific HO" ad was opposite the review--does anyone know just who "Pacific Traction" was? In some cases an address is a give-away--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> ] Re: Pacific Traction >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7202	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

Glenn Joesten inquires- Interesting that the "Pacific HO" ad was opposite the review--does anyone know just who "Pacific Traction" was? In some cases an address is a give-away--gj Ed Suydam... Now, just who actually manufactured the kits, I do not know- presumably a Japanese model shop. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7203	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Well put!   Some have to buy a Kia, some get to buy a Ferrari. . . . Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerold Eckl Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:37 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay   > > > One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as > there are people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of > these rarer items will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite > possibly far in excess to what they may be worth to this average > bidder group we have both just discussed, and also quite possibly well > beyond the means of the average collector. In that respect, the > factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item > regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct > disadvantage which in my estimation is about the same as saying this > bidding system can sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that. I > would rather be offered the option of whether I wanted to buy an item > based on a set price as compared to what is considered to be that > items value by what has been establish by the estimates of the > majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a position > to be able to have less value for his money. Have followed the eBay discussion with interest, I am impressed by the discipline of the contributors - on other lists this has ended with flaming and the forced ending of the topic. I wont bore you with my personal attitude to ebay, or my experiences - just one thought regarding the "unfair" advantage of wealthy collectors. *We* have an tremendous advantage , and I doubt many of those money types have it too... its often possible to get an desirable item that was mislabeled, poorly photographed, put in the wrong category *if* you have the knowledge to identify a model you look for , by only having some vague identification... and , to some degree, if you take the risk to bid on something worthless. I think I have bought a good part of my collection this way... buying incomplete models in the hope the missing parts may show up some day, bidding on things I only guessed what they were.... and most of the time I had luck. Maybe the guys with the big bank accounts get the pristine models - but if you are not shy to tinker you may be not far behind, at a fraction of the cost. Some of you may already know I am not an native English speaker, hope I have been able to express my thoughts. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7204	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Dallas Model Craft FT's

Attachments : HI Gerold,       "Met" your friend Russell from Australia. "Talked" with a man from Great Britain. A truly International group. On to the main topic. HO trains      Today I have sent pictures of a DMC FT unit. DMC made a set  A&B. I only have the unpowered B unit so far. A friend in California has a powered A unit. He has promised to trade (give maybe) this A unit to me. So far I can't pry it out of him.      The box shows both the E units and the FT's on top. I'm pretty sure these were the only engines DMC produced. (any one else have others) One end of this box says "DMC Freight Diesel B Superstructure and other end has the address. On the long sides Side one has pictures of 4 wheel power unit, 6 wheel gear box and one I never heard of till now BARNEY Power unit. The other long side has a picture of one of their streamlined passenger cars. The words " For those that want the finest" appears also. Tomorrow I will show one of the passenger cars that is a  mint kit with original box with plans.        Construction similar to the DMC E units but all parts are an aluminum type material again with embossed sides. I have found no markings inside to say cast by A&S but have to think they would be the caster. The frame underneath is a long piece of brass that the trucks screw onto. There is a block of wood on top of this and the superstructure (body) sets on it. Actually a nice looking item.                                                Have a good one                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7205	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I have to agree as well Gerold. Well stated!   Sean   Re: I wont bore you with my personal attitude to ebay, or my experiences - just one thought regarding the "unfair" advantage of wealthy collectors. *We* have an tremendous advantage , and I doubt many of those money types have it too... its often possible to get an desirable item that was mislabeled, poorly photographed, put in the wrong category *if* you have the knowledge to identify a model you look for , by only having some vague identification. .. and , to some degree, if you take the risk to bid on something worthless. I think I have bought a good part of my collection this way... buying incomplete models in the hope the missing parts may show up some day, bidding on things I only guessed what they were.... and most of the time I had luck. Maybe the guys with the big bank accounts get the pristine models - but if you are not shy to tinker you may be not far behind, at a fraction of the cost. Some of you may already know I am not an native English speaker, hope I have been able to express my thoughts. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7206	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Well stated Walt.   I suppose that is what I believe as well.. It is funny you used the word Philosophy.. This entire discussion has been bring back memories of my philosophy class I took at Pitt back in 1992. I liked the class... never took notes, never studied or read any of the required readings.. participated in every discussion, and attended every class, while sitting in the front row of the auditorium... got a B-...  Didn't care about the grade because it was fun.   Sean --- On Thu, 8/28/08, Walter J. Bayer II <bayerw@...> wrote: From: Walter J. Bayer II <bayerw@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 5:53 PM --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, erieberk@... wrote: >... > It is extremely possible for just two foolhardy, unknowledgeable or wealthy and uncaring (as to how much they spend) bidders to place bids far in excess of the true value of an item. While in some respects, I find this unfair to those of us who either won't or can't pay much more than an items approximate true value,... . > If person A is ready, willing and able to pay 2x, and person B is ready, willing and able to pay only 1x, how is that in any way unfair to person B. There is no "true value". Value is the price negotiated at arms' length between a willing seller and a willing buyer. Price guides are no more than that, guides. I may be willing to offer 1/2 the "value" stated in a price guide or twice the "value", but that is my decision and it is not unfair to anyone. I may offer to sell at 1/2 that "value" or twice that "value", and my decision is not unfair to anyone. That is how a marketplace functions. That is my philosophy. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7207	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's

I see this, like many model FT's does not use the proper truck placement. And from the box top, neither does the "A" unit. I understand we are discussing the history of HO and what was, was. But I do think that while we have a fervent interest in old models and an equally strong desire to own such artifacts, we must also admit to their shortcomings. Elsewise, by what standards can we judge the advances made in the hobby. Or, for that matter, which early model manufacturers produced the better product. After all we are still modelers of prototype railroad equipment. Short and sweet, the good olde days, fascinating as they may be, were not always THAT good. John Hagen ST Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > HI Gerold, > "Met" your friend Russell from Australia. "Talked" with a man from Great Britain. A truly International group. On to the main topic. HO trains > Today I have sent pictures of a DMC FT unit. DMC made a set A&B. I only have the unpowered B unit so far. A friend in California has a powered A unit. He has promised to trade (give maybe) this A unit to me. So far I can't pry it out of him. > The box shows both the E units and the FT's on top. I'm pretty sure these were the only engines DMC produced. (any one else have others) One end of this box says "DMC Freight Diesel B Superstructure and other end has the address. On the long sides Side one has pictures of 4 wheel power unit, 6 wheel gear box and one I never heard of till now BARNEY Power unit. The other long side has a picture of one of their streamlined passenger cars. The words " For those that want the finest" appears also. Tomorrow I will show one of the passenger cars that is a mint kit with original box with plans. > Construction similar to the DMC E units but all parts are an aluminum type material again with embossed sides. I have found no markings inside to say cast by A&S but have to think they would be the caster. The frame underneath is a long piece of brass that the trucks screw onto. There is a block of wood on top of this and the superstructure (body) sets on it. Actually a nice looking item. > Have a good one Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7208	From: Chris B	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Also agree.   Some might think it unfair, but knowledge always has some traction over those with deep pockets.    This is what I've been doing with unidentified switchers with hobbytown or OMI drives.    When I found a likely prospect with no pictures of the bottom of the switcher included...I'll also admit I asked very guarded questions that even if the q & a were posted, they would not necessarily give away the secret, except to those others who knew why someone might ask,   (asking for example, if there were visible drives shafts between the trucks, and if so, if they were sq brass with white plastic fittings, or round steel with black rubber tubing fittings)   sometimes I scored, sometimes I bought junk, but it always seemed fair to me, especially once the price of advertised hobbytown sw drives frequently topped $100, and the OMI switcher drives were starting to go for twice that.   of course I'm out of all that now, with 50 project drives on the bench, so I've shut down my ebay acct and am trying to focus on building instead of buying!   Chris   ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:07:34 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay I have to agree as well Gerold. Well stated!   Sean   Re: I wont bore you with my personal attitude to ebay, or my experiences - just one thought regarding the "unfair" advantage of wealthy collectors. *We* have an tremendous advantage , and I doubt many of those money types have it too... its often possible to get an desirable item that was mislabeled, poorly photographed, put in the wrong category *if* you have the knowledge to identify a model you look for , by only having some vague identification. .. and , to some degree, if you take the risk to bid on something worthless. I think I have bought a good part of my collection this way... buying incomplete models in the hope the missing parts may show up some day, bidding on things I only guessed what they were.... and most of the time I had luck. Maybe the guys with the big bank accounts get the pristine models - but if you are not shy to tinker you may be not far behind, at a fraction of the cost. Some of you may already know I am not an native English speaker, hope I have been able to express my thoughts. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7209	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I still plan on living forever...   You guys might as well just send me all your trains now... save me the touble of waiting...     Sean   --- On Thu, 8/28/08, ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> wrote: From: ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 11:37 AM I think what sets prices isn't necessarily if an item is "rare" or "old" or "beautiful to look at".   I think it is more often some emotional connection.  Most often it is some nostalgic connection to our formative years (in high school you couldn't have the 57 chevy that the football quarterback had who got all the girls) or some mob fad mentality (Beanie Babies).   I'm guessing that those with into Vintage HO probably have an average age above fifty (of course, the definition of "vintage" will no doubt change as many things bought today will be tomorrows "vintage".  That means that in the next 15 years or so, most items now considered "vintage" will be coming up for sale, but there will be fewer and fewer buyers driven by the nostalgia.  Prices will likely flatten, then plummet.   So my advice is to eat well and exercise so you can wait everybody out and rake in a ton of stuff cheap when the glut hits the market.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Ray, Sean, fwiw, here's my 4 cents on value guides, fair prices, and auctions.   It might be useful to remember this is not an issue unique to train collecting, but has been an ongoing story for many decades in collecting everything from antique cars; to 2 hundred years of London & NYC auction house sales price histories in selling antique furniture; to centuries of price history values for collecting fine art and antiquities all over the world.    Here's a longwinded personal example of what I mean by the long term impact of time on collectible values/prices.    When I was young and couldn't afford to collect HO brass even though it was cheap and new at that time, I was an apprentice cabinetmaker learning to restore fine 18th century American furniture worth many thousands of dollars for major museums and federal govt buildings.    The standard collector guides to american antique furniture that included price estimates have been published annually for over a century.  They reflect both shop prices and auction prices, but it's hard to say if they represent "fair" prices or "true" value, even for the time they were published.   I started tracking the values listed at that time for certain less valuable/in demand furniture from various later periods in american antique furniture, including Art Deco (1920) and American Empire(1810) .    One example I can think of is that what is called american Pilgrim Century furniture (late 1600's) was nearly priceless before WWII at auctions and shops, and dropped in value steeply ever since.   In 40 years, some of the Art Deco pieces I bought then have gone up considerably, but I have no intention of ever selling them.  All of the American Empire pieces have been sold at a small loss by now, they never appreciated, for various subjective reasons, even though they were all completely hand made by skilled craftsman trained in the 18th century tradition, while the Art Deco pieces are all veneered factory made assembly line items.    Those who are TCA collectors are more familiar with the model train version of this, with what's happened to lionel values since many rare pieces have been reproduced, or the values of HO brass steam since HO plastic steam has become so much more equivalent in appearance with improved performance.   Rich people can always pay more for something they want then less affluent people, I know we all recognize that as obvious.  What the history of antique collecting and price/values does also tell us is that certain items go up in value for a time when an affluent group seeks them en masse, and then pretty rapidly drop in value when that group has passed on.  Other items sometimes never go up, and may even go down.   Value is subjective, sales prices are a matter of record.    Back to my seat in the back row, Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:43:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Hi Sean,  Will catch you later on this when you come back from the field.  There is no offense taken from your post, and I read it with much interest. When using the term "unfair" I realized that it may not have been the exact word I was looking to use, and had wrestled with using it.  But the context of my meaning of it is that, even though any bidder is of course entitled to place a bid of any denomination he so chooses (with him being considered as being unfair to anyone), this bidding procedure causes an unfair advantage to those (most) of us not having deep pockets, keeping in mind that someone with such deep pockets is able to place a bid far in excess of what most other bidders consider an item to be worth (and I'm not talking of just a relatively minor difference of just $50 or so on a rare item, which anyone has an opportunity to make up this difference if he so chooses). When I used $75,000 per year as a salary for an average collector, please keep in mind this was just an example vs. that salary of someone making $300,000 (again, just an example) per year.  I could have (and thought of) using $30,000 (or $25,000) per year, but then I half expected I would get responses that most people make more than that now.  I how you get my drift in the salary spread I was trying to make. Agreed, out-of-print valuations -- such as those found in the various Greenberg's Guides I brought up are useless, at least by themselves.  They only serve (but do serve) in comparing those values to other H0 items collected duing that period, and to get an idea of how much something was worth in the money of that time.  To be more up to date, newer valuations need to be established on anything you consider buying, which is where the willingness of what the average collector would condier paying comes into play. I go along with you, and agree that what the average of the sum of what 10 collectors would pay for an item would reflect what that item is now considered to be worth, would be a fair and equitable estimate of what an item's value could be established at.  I would go beyond removing just the 1st highest bidder's value though, as most often he has just barely outbid the next highest bidder -- who probably also had dep pockets if the item is viewed by most as going excessively high.  I might also delete the two lowest bidders, knowing that there are often a few who try to get an item for a song. One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as there are people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of these rarer items will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite possibly far in excess to what they may be worth to this average bidder group we have both just discussed, and also quite possibly well beyond the means of the average collector.  In that respect, the factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct disadvantage which in my estimation is about the same as saying this bidding system can sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that.  I would rather be offered the option of whether I wanted to buy an item based on a set price as compared to what is considered to be that items value by what has been establish by the estimates of the majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a position to be able to have less value for his money.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7210	From: Chris B	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Attachments : 1 more thought on knowledge over money...   after I got burned a few times by sellers who answered my too-clever questions with positive answers and then sent old Varney or Marx drives with Athearn shells, I made up the attached graphic to send to future sellers so they could tell what I meant.    of course, shortly after that I realized I already had more hobbytown and OMI drives than I needed, some bought at "fair value" prices, and some won at bargain basement rates from sellers who didn't know what they had...so I never got to see if the drive shaft info sheet was any help.   here it is anyway, for anyone who wanted to identify a hobbytown drive from the bottom view,   Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:35:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Also agree.   Some might think it unfair, but knowledge always has some traction over those with deep pockets.  This is what I've been doing with unidentified switchers with hobbytown or OMI drives.  When I found a likely prospect with no pictures of the bottom of the switcher included...I' ll also admit I asked very guarded questions that even if the q & a were posted, they would not necessarily give away the secret, except to those others who knew why someone might ask, (asking for example, if there were visible drives shafts between the trucks, and if so, if they were sq brass with white plastic fittings, or round steel with black rubber tubing fittings) sometimes I scored, sometimes I bought junk, but it always seemed fair to me, especially once the price of advertised hobbytown sw drives frequently topped $100, and the OMI switcher drives were starting to go for twice that.   of course I'm out of all that now, with 50 project drives on the bench, so I've shut down my ebay acct and am trying to focus on building instead of buying!   Chris   .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7211	From: Glenn476	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Pacific Traction

Logical, since he was importing all those brass trolleys.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:04 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Pacific Traction Glenn Joesten inquires- Interesting that the "Pacific HO" ad was opposite the review--does anyone know just who "Pacific Traction" was? In some cases an address is a give-away--gj Ed Suydam... Now, just who actually manufactured the kits, I do not know- presumably a Japanese model shop. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7212	From: pvande1@comcast.net	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Attachments : Would you folks mind taking this item into private communications or at least labeling it as off topic? thanks, phil -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> > I still plan on living forever... > � > You guys might as well just send me all your trains now... save me the touble of > waiting... > � > � > Sean > � > > --- On Thu, 8/28/08, ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> wrote: > > From: ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 11:37 AM > > > > > > > > I think what sets prices isn't necessarily if an item is "rare" or "old" or > "beautiful to look at". > � > I think it is more often some emotional connection.� Most often it is some > nostalgic connection to our formative years (in high school you couldn't have > the 57 chevy that the�football quarterback had who got all the girls) or some > mob fad�mentality (Beanie Babies). > � > I'm guessing that those with into�Vintage HO probably have an average age above > fifty (of course, the definition of "vintage" will no doubt change as many > things bought today will be tomorrows "vintage".� That means that in the next 15 > years or so, most items now considered "vintage" will be coming up for sale, but > there will be fewer and fewer buyers driven by the nostalgia.� Prices will > likely flatten, then plummet. > � > So my advice is to eat well and exercise so you can wait everybody out and rake > in a ton of stuff cheap when the glut hits the market. > � > Chuck Kinzer > � > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris B > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:12 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > > > > > > Ray, Sean, fwiw, here's my 4 cents on value guides, fair prices, and auctions. > � > It might�be useful to remember this is not an issue unique to train collecting, > but has been an ongoing story for many decades in collecting everything from > antique cars; to 2 hundred years�of London & NYC auction house sales price > histories in selling�antique furniture; to centuries of price history values for > collecting fine art and antiquities�all over the world.� > � > Here's a longwinded personal example of what I mean by the long term impact of > time on collectible values/prices. > � > �When I was young and couldn't afford to collect�HO brass even though it was > cheap and new at that time, I was an apprentice cabinetmaker learning to restore > fine 18th century American furniture worth many thousands of dollars for major > museums and federal govt buildings.� > � > The standard collector guides to american antique furniture that included price > estimates have been published annually for over a century.� They reflect both > shop prices and auction prices, but it's hard to say if they represent "fair" > prices or "true" value, even for the time they were published. > � > I started tracking the values listed at that time for certain less valuable/in > demand furniture from various later�periods in american antique furniture, > including Art Deco (1920) and American Empire(1810) .� > � > One example I can think of is that what is called american Pilgrim Century > furniture (late 1600's) was nearly priceless before WWII at auctions and shops, > and dropped in value steeply ever since. > � > In 40 years, some of the Art Deco pieces I bought then have gone up > considerably, but I have no intention of ever selling them.��All of the American > Empire pieces�have been sold at a small loss by now, they never appreciated, for > various�subjective reasons, even though they were all completely hand�made by > skilled craftsman trained in the 18th century tradition,�while the Art Deco > pieces�are all veneered factory made�assembly line items.� > � > Those who are TCA collectors are more familiar with the model train version of > this, with what's happened to lionel values since many rare pieces have been > reproduced, or the values of HO brass steam since HO plastic steam has become so > much more equivalent in appearance with improved performance. > � > Rich people can always pay more for something they want then less affluent > people, I know�we all recognize that as obvious.� What the history of antique > collecting and price/values does also tell us�is that certain items go up in > value�for a time when an affluent group seeks them en�masse, and then pretty > rapidly drop in value when that group has passed on.��Other items sometimes > never go up, and may even go down. > � > Value is subjective, sales prices are a matter of record.� > � > Back to my seat in the back row, > Chris > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:43:45 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > > > > Hi Sean, �Will catch you later on this when you come back from the field. �There > is no offense taken from your post, and I read it with much interest. > > When using the term "unfair" I realized that it may not have been the exact word > I was looking to use, and had wrestled with using it. �But the context of my > meaning of it is that, even though any bidder is of course entitled to place a > bid of any denomination he so chooses (with him being considered as being unfair > to anyone), this bidding procedure causes an unfair advantage to those (most) of > us not having deep pockets, keeping in mind that someone with such deep pockets > is able to place a bid far in excess of what most other bidders consider an item > to be worth (and I'm not talking of just a relatively minor difference of just > $50 or so on a rare item, which anyone has an opportunity to make up this > difference if he so chooses). > > When I used $75,000 per year as a salary for an average collector, please keep > in mind this was just an example vs. that salary of someone making $300,000 > (again, just an example) per year. �I could have (and thought of) using $30,000 > (or $25,000) per year, but then I half expected I would get responses that most > people make more than that now. �I how you get my drift in the salary spread I > was trying to make. > > Agreed, out-of-print valuations -- such as those found in the various > Greenberg's Guides I brought up are useless, at least by themselves. �They only > serve (but do serve) in comparing those values to other H0 items collected duing > that period, and to get an idea of how much something was worth in the money of > that time. �To be more up to date, newer valuations need to be established on > anything you consider buying, which is where the willingness of what the average > collector would condier paying comes into play. > > I go along with you, and agree that what the average of the sum of what 10 > collectors would pay for an item would reflect what that item is now considered > to be worth, would be a fair and equitable estimate of what an item's value > could be established at. �I would go beyond removing just the 1st highest > bidder's value though, as most often he has just barely outbid the next highest > bidder -- who probably also had dep pockets if the item is viewed by most as > going excessively high. �I might also delete the two lowest bidders, knowing > that there are often a few who try to get an item for a song. > > One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as there are > people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of these rarer items > will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite possibly far in excess to > what they may be worth to this average bidder group we have both just discussed, > and also quite possibly well beyond the means of the average collector. �In that > respect, the factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item > regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct disadvantage > which in my estimation is about the same as saying this bidding system can > sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that. �I would rather be offered the > option of whether I wanted to buy an item based on a set price as compared to > what is considered to be that items value by what has been establish by the > estimates of the majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a > position to be able to have > less value for his money. �Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7213	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's

Hi John,        This will probably start another debate but hope not.  Just a comment. So many different people have interest in different aspects of HO.        I happen to be one who wants to collect vintage HO as they were without changes. That includes how they were made and how they ran. I want "just as was". But I know others have different wants. If you happen to be a more "purist (and I use that word without negativity) great. That is where people who see these wrongs and like to modify to closer resemble the "real" thing along with improving the looks and performance of vintage items. Nothing wrong with that either. Personnel preference.        If I remember the goal of this site is . Collecting vintage HO, improving vintage HO and running vintage HO. Not being well versed in the real thing I would never had know about the trucks being placed wrong. I learned an important fact today. If it wasn't pointed out I would never have known and Thank You for that.        I'm going to close with my philosophy  "To each his own" but share your knowledge.                                                   Have a good one                  Jim         ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:31 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's I see this, like many model FT's does not use the proper truck placement. And from the box top, neither does the "A" unit. I understand we are discussing the history of HO and what was, was. But I do think that while we have a fervent interest in old models and an equally strong desire to own such artifacts, we must also admit to their shortcomings. Elsewise, by what standards can we judge the advances made in the hobby. Or, for that matter, which early model manufacturers produced the better product. After all we are still modelers of prototype railroad equipment. Short and sweet, the good olde days, fascinating as they may be, were not always THAT good. John Hagen ST Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > HI Gerold, > "Met" your friend Russell from Australia. "Talked" with a man from Great Britain. A truly International group. On to the main topic. HO trains > Today I have sent pictures of a DMC FT unit. DMC made a set A&B. I only have the unpowered B unit so far. A friend in California has a powered A unit. He has promised to trade (give maybe) this A unit to me. So far I can't pry it out of him. > The box shows both the E units and the FT's on top. I'm pretty sure these were the only engines DMC produced. (any one else have others) One end of this box says "DMC Freight Diesel B Superstructure and other end has the address. On the long sides Side one has pictures of 4 wheel power unit, 6 wheel gear box and one I never heard of till now BARNEY Power unit. The other long side has a picture of one of their streamlined passenger cars. The words " For those that want the finest" appears also. Tomorrow I will show one of the passenger cars that is a mint kit with original box with plans. > Construction similar to the DMC E units but all parts are an aluminum type material again with embossed sides. I have found no markings inside to say cast by A&S but have to think they would be the caster. The frame underneath is a long piece of brass that the trucks screw onto. There is a block of wood on top of this and the superstructure (body) sets on it. Actually a nice looking item. > Have a good one Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7214	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Clever Chris..   My questions are limited to combined shipping.. and that is it... If I do not know, I do not bid..   I do strike gold more times than not, however.. It pays to have a good eye.   For example:   Just two weeks ago, I followed a Bowser Challenger listing.. It had a starting bid of $75 with $30 shipping via UPS.. I waited until 5 minutes left in the auction.. then I asked if the item did not seel, if they would be willing to ship via USPS in a large FR box fpr $15.. shipping via UPs.. they might as well drop-kick it to my door..   The item ended with no buyers and the seller said yes.. The engine was complete with the brass super detail kit already applied.. I figured at $91 inc s/h it was a steal.. Then the seller offered a Big Boy in pieces for an additional $100.. I jumped on it when they sent the pics.. It was a Brass Tenshodo hand crafted limited edition..in pieces, of course..   Our fellow member and good friend, Brian Look is working his magic on it for me..   I would have to say again.. It just takes a good eye.. I spotted the quality of the Challenger and knew right away what it was worth.. It is now sitting here next to my desk, at work.. By far, the nicest and most highly detailed one I have owned to date..   Sean --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 10:55 AM 1 more thought on knowledge over money...   after I got burned a few times by sellers who answered my too-clever questions with positive answers and then sent old Varney or Marx drives with Athearn shells, I made up the attached graphic to send to future sellers so they could tell what I meant.    of course, shortly after that I realized I already had more hobbytown and OMI drives than I needed, some bought at "fair value" prices, and some won at bargain basement rates from sellers who didn't know what they had...so I never got to see if the drive shaft info sheet was any help.   here it is anyway, for anyone who wanted to identify a hobbytown drive from the bottom view,   Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:35:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Also agree.   Some might think it unfair, but knowledge always has some traction over those with deep pockets.  This is what I've been doing with unidentified switchers with hobbytown or OMI drives.  When I found a likely prospect with no pictures of the bottom of the switcher included...I' ll also admit I asked very guarded questions that even if the q & a were posted, they would not necessarily give away the secret, except to those others who knew why someone might ask, (asking for example, if there were visible drives shafts between the trucks, and if so, if they were sq brass with white plastic fittings, or round steel with black rubber tubing fittings) sometimes I scored, sometimes I bought junk, but it always seemed fair to me, especially once the price of advertised hobbytown sw drives frequently topped $100, and the OMI switcher drives were starting to go for twice that.   of course I'm out of all that now, with 50 project drives on the bench, so I've shut down my ebay acct and am trying to focus on building instead of buying!   Chris   .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7215	From: Steven Winter	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I hope you don't mind, I've got to jump in here with a quick experience on ebay. I had found an auction for a Revell pickle car. It was part of a box of stuff, including a couple of Tyco engines, an Athearn or two and a bunch of misc cars. In the photo was an Aurora Model Modeling 90 degree road and rail crossing. I've been looking for one for years and found one at the Allentown Train Meet a few years ago. The guy wanted $75 for it! I passed. Well here was one in a box of "junk" trains that was going for $10. I emailed the guy and asked if everything in the photo was included, including some bridge piers in the background. He answered yes, I bid $15 and won. I got my Revell pickle car, two decent running Athearns and my much coveted crossing ..... all for $15!   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Also agree.   Some might think it unfair, but knowledge always has some traction over those with deep pockets.    This is what I've been doing with unidentified switchers with hobbytown or OMI drives.    When I found a likely prospect with no pictures of the bottom of the switcher included...I'll also admit I asked very guarded questions that even if the q & a were posted, they would not necessarily give away the secret, except to those others who knew why someone might ask,   (asking for example, if there were visible drives shafts between the trucks, and if so, if they were sq brass with white plastic fittings, or round steel with black rubber tubing fittings)   sometimes I scored, sometimes I bought junk, but it always seemed fair to me, especially once the price of advertised hobbytown sw drives frequently topped $100, and the OMI switcher drives were starting to go for twice that.   of course I'm out of all that now, with 50 project drives on the bench, so I've shut down my ebay acct and am trying to focus on building instead of buying!   Chris   ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:07:34 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay I have to agree as well Gerold. Well stated!   Sean   Re: I wont bore you with my personal attitude to ebay, or my experiences - just one thought regarding the "unfair" advantage of wealthy collectors. *We* have an tremendous advantage , and I doubt many of those money types have it too... its often possible to get an desirable item that was mislabeled, poorly photographed, put in the wrong category *if* you have the knowledge to identify a model you look for , by only having some vague identification. .. and , to some degree, if you take the risk to bid on something worthless. I think I have bought a good part of my collection this way... buying incomplete models in the hope the missing parts may show up some day, bidding on things I only guessed what they were.... and most of the time I had luck. Maybe the guys with the big bank accounts get the pristine models - but if you are not shy to tinker you may be not far behind, at a fraction of the cost. Some of you may already know I am not an native English speaker, hope I have been able to express my thoughts. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7216	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's

Hi Jim, Yeah, we don't need another debate. I quit reading the eBay vs swap meets several days ago. Don't get me wrong. I do appreciate the early models just as they are. And I am grateful for individuals, like your self, who search out and preserve these rarities. If I had something as rare as DMC FT's, they would remain as made by DMC. However, if I needed a set of FT's for normal layout operation, I would also have a set of correct models (I think Stewart did some, somebody did). The only time I would modify vintage HO would be if there was no correct model and needed a starting point. And then only if it was something that would be readily available, such as a Mantua Mikado for instance. Anything as rare as what you have taken your time to show us, and please continue to do so, I would never modify..... nay, make that "destroy". I am becoming a history buff, especially on old models and/or toys. I have learned through the years that one cannot change or deny history and should instead learn the developmental process that brought us to where we are today. This requires appreciating what our fore-runners accomplished while understanding their limitations. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > This will probably start another debate but hope not. Just a comment. So many different people have interest in different aspects of HO. > I happen to be one who wants to collect vintage HO as they were without changes. That includes how they were made and how they ran. I want "just as was". But I know others have different wants. If you happen to be a more "purist (and I use that word without negativity) great. That is where people who see these wrongs and like to modify to closer resemble the "real" thing along with improving the looks and performance of vintage items. Nothing wrong with that either. Personnel preference. > If I remember the goal of this site is . Collecting vintage HO, improving vintage HO and running vintage HO. Not being well versed in the real thing I would never had know about the trucks being placed wrong. I learned an important fact today. If it wasn't pointed out I would never have known and Thank You for that. > I'm going to close with my philosophy "To each his own" but share your knowledge. > Have a good one Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Hagen > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:31 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's > > > I see this, like many model FT's does not use the proper truck > placement. And from the box top, neither does the "A" unit. > > I understand we are discussing the history of HO and what was, was. > But I do think that while we have a fervent interest in old models > and an equally strong desire to own such artifacts, we must also > admit to their shortcomings. Elsewise, by what standards can we judge > the advances made in the hobby. Or, for that matter, which early > model manufacturers produced the better product. After all we are > still modelers of prototype railroad equipment. > > Short and sweet, the good olde days, fascinating as they may be, were > not always THAT good. > > John Hagen > ST Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > HI Gerold, > > "Met" your friend Russell from Australia. "Talked" with a man > from Great Britain. A truly International group. On to the main > topic. HO trains > > Today I have sent pictures of a DMC FT unit. DMC made a set > A&B. I only have the unpowered B unit so far. A friend in California > has a powered A unit. He has promised to trade (give maybe) this A > unit to me. So far I can't pry it out of him. > > The box shows both the E units and the FT's on top. I'm pretty > sure these were the only engines DMC produced. (any one else have > others) One end of this box says "DMC Freight Diesel B Superstructure > and other end has the address. On the long sides Side one has > pictures of 4 wheel power unit, 6 wheel gear box and one I never > heard of till now BARNEY Power unit. The other long side has a > picture of one of their streamlined passenger cars. The words " For > those that want the finest" appears also. Tomorrow I will show one of > the passenger cars that is a mint kit with original box with plans. > > Construction similar to the DMC E units but all parts are an > aluminum type material again with embossed sides. I have found no > markings inside to say cast by A&S but have to think they would be > the caster. The frame underneath is a long piece of brass that the > trucks screw onto. There is a block of wood on top of this and the > superstructure (body) sets on it. Actually a nice looking item. > > Have a good > one Jim > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7217	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Sean, can you send a truck to pick mine up? LOL  Brian L.   In a message dated 8/29/2008 10:36:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a69mustang4me@... writes: I still plan on living forever...   You guys might as well just send me all your trains now... save me the touble of waiting...     Sean   --- On Thu, 8/28/08, ckinzer@att. net <ckinzer@att. net> wrote: From: ckinzer@att. net <ckinzer@att. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 11:37 AM I think what sets prices isn't necessarily if an item is "rare" or "old" or "beautiful to look at".   I think it is more often some emotional connection.  Most often it is some nostalgic connection to our formative years (in high school you couldn't have the 57 chevy that the football quarterback had who got all the girls) or some mob fad mentality (Beanie Babies).   I'm guessing that those with into Vintage HO probably have an average age above fifty (of course, the definition of "vintage" will no doubt change as many things bought today will be tomorrows "vintage".  That means that in the next 15 years or so, most items now considered "vintage" will be coming up for sale, but there will be fewer and fewer buyers driven by the nostalgia.  Prices will likely flatten, then plummet.   So my advice is to eat well and exercise so you can wait everybody out and rake in a ton of stuff cheap when the glut hits the market.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Ray, Sean, fwiw, here's my 4 cents on value guides, fair prices, and auctions.   It might be useful to remember this is not an issue unique to train collecting, but has been an ongoing story for many decades in collecting everything from antique cars; to 2 hundred years of London & NYC auction house sales price histories in selling antique furniture; to centuries of price history values for collecting fine art and antiquities all over the world.    Here's a longwinded personal example of what I mean by the long term impact of time on collectible values/prices.    When I was young and couldn't afford to collect HO brass even though it was cheap and new at that time, I was an apprentice cabinetmaker learning to restore fine 18th century American furniture worth many thousands of dollars for major museums and federal govt buildings.    The standard collector guides to american antique furniture that included price estimates have been published annually for over a century.  They reflect both shop prices and auction prices, but it's hard to say if they represent "fair" prices or "true" value, even for the time they were published.   I started tracking the values listed at that time for certain less valuable/in demand furniture from various later periods in american antique furniture, including Art Deco (1920) and American Empire(1810) .    One example I can think of is that what is called american Pilgrim Century furniture (late 1600's) was nearly priceless before WWII at auctions and shops, and dropped in value steeply ever since.   In 40 years, some of the Art Deco pieces I bought then have gone up considerably, but I have no intention of ever selling them.  All of the American Empire pieces have been sold at a small loss by now, they never appreciated, for various subjective reasons, even though they were all completely hand made by skilled craftsman trained in the 18th century tradition, while the Art Deco pieces are all veneered factory made assembly line items.    Those who are TCA collectors are more familiar with the model train version of this, with what's happened to lionel values since many rare pieces have been reproduced, or the values of HO brass steam since HO plastic steam has become so much more equivalent in appearance with improved performance.   Rich people can always pay more for something they want then less affluent people, I know we all recognize that as obvious.  What the history of antique collecting and price/values does also tell us is that certain items go up in value for a time when an affluent group seeks them en masse, and then pretty rapidly drop in value when that group has passed on.  Other items sometimes never go up, and may even go down.   Value is subjective, sales prices are a matter of record.    Back to my seat in the back row, Chris ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:43:45 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Hi Sean,  Will catch you later on this when you come back from the field.  There is no offense taken from your post, and I read it with much interest. When using the term "unfair" I realized that it may not have been the exact word I was looking to use, and had wrestled with using it.  But the context of my meaning of it is that, even though any bidder is of course entitled to place a bid of any denomination he so chooses (with him being considered as being unfair to anyone), this bidding procedure causes an unfair advantage to those (most) of us not having deep pockets, keeping in mind that someone with such deep pockets is able to place a bid far in excess of what most other bidders consider an item to be worth (and I'm not talking of just a relatively minor difference of just $50 or so on a rare item, which anyone has an opportunity to make up this difference if he so chooses). When I used $75,000 per year as a salary for an average collector, please keep in mind this was just an example vs. that salary of someone making $300,000 (again, just an example) per year.  I could have (and thought of) using $30,000 (or $25,000) per year, but then I half expected I would get responses that most people make more than that now.  I how you get my drift in the salary spread I was trying to make. Agreed, out-of-print valuations -- such as those found in the various Greenberg's Guides I brought up are useless, at least by themselves.  They only serve (but do serve) in comparing those values to other H0 items collected duing that period, and to get an idea of how much something was worth in the money of that time.  To be more up to date, newer valuations need to be established on anything you consider buying, which is where the willingness of what the average collector would condier paying comes into play. I go along with you, and agree that what the average of the sum of what 10 collectors would pay for an item would reflect what that item is now considered to be worth, would be a fair and equitable estimate of what an item's value could be established at.  I would go beyond removing just the 1st highest bidder's value though, as most often he has just barely outbid the next highest bidder -- who probably also had dep pockets if the item is viewed by most as going excessively high.  I might also delete the two lowest bidders, knowing that there are often a few who try to get an item for a song. One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as there are people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of these rarer items will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite possibly far in excess to what they may be worth to this average bidder group we have both just discussed, and also quite possibly well beyond the means of the average collector.  In that respect, the factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct disadvantage which in my estimation is about the same as saying this bidding system can sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that.  I would rather be offered the option of whether I wanted to buy an item based on a set price as compared to what is considered to be that items value by what has been establish by the estimates of the majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a position to be able to have less value for his money.  Ray It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7218	From: John Barlow	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's

Dear John,   You're on it...Stewart has the better of two companies that make FT's. I like the Reading A&B set I just got.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) --- On Fri, 8/29/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 9:59 AM Hi Jim, Yeah, we don't need another debate. I quit reading the eBay vs swap meets several days ago. Don't get me wrong. I do appreciate the early models just as they are. And I am grateful for individuals, like your self, who search out and preserve these rarities. If I had something as rare as DMC FT's, they would remain as made by DMC. However, if I needed a set of FT's for normal layout operation, I would also have a set of correct models (I think Stewart did some, somebody did). The only time I would modify vintage HO would be if there was no correct model and needed a starting point. And then only if it was something that would be readily available, such as a Mantua Mikado for instance. Anything as rare as what you have taken your time to show us, and please continue to do so, I would never modify..... nay, make that "destroy". I am becoming a history buff, especially on old models and/or toys. I have learned through the years that one cannot change or deny history and should instead learn the developmental process that brought us to where we are today. This requires appreciating what our fore-runners accomplished while understanding their limitations. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Hi John, > This will probably start another debate but hope not. Just a comment. So many different people have interest in different aspects of HO. > I happen to be one who wants to collect vintage HO as they were without changes. That includes how they were made and how they ran. I want "just as was". But I know others have different wants. If you happen to be a more "purist (and I use that word without negativity) great. That is where people who see these wrongs and like to modify to closer resemble the "real" thing along with improving the looks and performance of vintage items. Nothing wrong with that either. Personnel preference. > If I remember the goal of this site is . Collecting vintage HO, improving vintage HO and running vintage HO. Not being well versed in the real thing I would never had know about the trucks being placed wrong. I learned an important fact today. If it wasn't pointed out I would never have known and Thank You for that. > I'm going to close with my philosophy "To each his own" but share your knowledge. > Have a good one Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Hagen > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:31 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's > > > I see this, like many model FT's does not use the proper truck > placement. And from the box top, neither does the "A" unit. > > I understand we are discussing the history of HO and what was, was. > But I do think that while we have a fervent interest in old models > and an equally strong desire to own such artifacts, we must also > admit to their shortcomings. Elsewise, by what standards can we judge > the advances made in the hobby. Or, for that matter, which early > model manufacturers produced the better product. After all we are > still modelers of prototype railroad equipment. > > Short and sweet, the good olde days, fascinating as they may be, were > not always THAT good. > > John Hagen > ST Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI. > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote: > > > > HI Gerold, > > "Met" your friend Russell from Australia. "Talked" with a man > from Great Britain. A truly International group. On to the main > topic. HO trains > > Today I have sent pictures of a DMC FT unit. DMC made a set > A&B. I only have the unpowered B unit so far. A friend in California > has a powered A unit. He has promised to trade (give maybe) this A > unit to me. So far I can't pry it out of him. > > The box shows both the E units and the FT's on top. I'm pretty > sure these were the only engines DMC produced. (any one else have > others) One end of this box says "DMC Freight Diesel B Superstructure > and other end has the address. On the long sides Side one has > pictures of 4 wheel power unit, 6 wheel gear box and one I never > heard of till now BARNEY Power unit. The other long side has a > picture of one of their streamlined passenger cars. The words " For > those that want the finest" appears also. Tomorrow I will show one of > the passenger cars that is a mint kit with original box with plans. > > Construction similar to the DMC E units but all parts are an > aluminum type material again with embossed sides. I have found no > markings inside to say cast by A&S but have to think they would be > the caster. The frame underneath is a long piece of brass that the > trucks screw onto. There is a block of wood on top of this and the > superstructure (body) sets on it. Actually a nice looking item. > > Have a good > one Jim > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7219	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Last of Dallas Model Craft

Attachments : Hi Gerold &All,              Seems to be a little quiet on the site now so I thought I would finish up sending things about Dallas Model Craft. These pictures are of one of my mint kits in an original box. This is the baggage car. The box is very plain unlike that for the engines. The only writing on it is on the ends and says baggage. The white sticker is my ID for who made and year 1947-1948. I tend to think these cars might be for the Santa Fe Super Chief since all the engines are shown as Santa Fe.               The passenger cars are made from the same material as the FT's and the sides of one E unit. They are preformed in that they are rounded on the bottoms. These cars also have that raised embossed feature on the sides. The passenger cars  have a metal roof that is thinner then the sides probably so it can be formed over the rounded wooden roof. The kit contains what's shown plus a written assembly sheet. It includes a little bag of detail parts. I don't know what of or what made from. Didn't want to open the sealed bags               The assembly sheet is mainly written instructions where the engines all had diagrams plus written sheets. I didn't send the written sheets for the engines. (If you want them I will try to oblige and copy them for you). Our HOSC&H -SIG newsletter has a story about DMC passenger cars showing 6 or 7 different streamlined cars. I seem to think no standard cars were made.               This is the last of  DMC Dallas Model Craft pictures and paperwork. Will move to something else tomorrow.                                         Have a good one        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7220	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Maybe I’m missing something here, but why is the train show vs. eBay discussion thread off topic since these are two major sources of our vintage HO trains?  Some weeks back a discussion thread developed on antique automobiles, and no one asked that it be taken into private communication although it had nothing to do with vintage HO.  Frankly, I’ve found the train show vs. eBay give-and-take one of the most interesting discussions I’ve followed since I joined the group.  If it is off topic, please explain why.     Since I’ve now entered this discussion, I’ll make two other points that have been on my mind about the topic.  First off, someone can have deep pockets and be an expert on vingage HO at the same time.  The two aren’t mutually exclusive as has been implied in some of our comments.     Secondly, much of what has been said about eBay as unfair really is an indictment of our economic system in general.  Mr. Deep Pockets way overbids Mr. Average Income and gets the Reading Crusader.  Mr. Deep Pockets is seriously ill but can pay for the outrageously expensive treatment he needs to save his life.  Mr. Average Income is also seriously ill but . . . . .   Talk about unfair.                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff    On 8/29/08 11:15 AM, "pvande1@..." <pvande1@...> wrote:   Would you folks mind taking this item into private communications or at least labeling it as off topic? thanks, phil -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@... <mailto:a69mustang4me%40yahoo.com> > > I still plan on living forever... >   > You guys might as well just send me all your trains now... save me the touble of > waiting... >   >   > Sean >   > > --- On Thu, 8/28/08, ckinzer@... <mailto:ckinzer%40att.net>  <ckinzer@... <mailto:ckinzer%40att.net> > wrote: > > From: ckinzer@... <mailto:ckinzer%40att.net>  <ckinzer@... <mailto:ckinzer%40att.net> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 11:37 AM > > > > > > > > I think what sets prices isn't necessarily if an item is "rare" or "old" or > "beautiful to look at". >   > I think it is more often some emotional connection.  Most often it is some > nostalgic connection to our formative years (in high school you couldn't have > the 57 chevy that the football quarterback had who got all the girls) or some > mob fad mentality (Beanie Babies). >   > I'm guessing that those with into Vintage HO probably have an average age above > fifty (of course, the definition of "vintage" will no doubt change as many > things bought today will be tomorrows "vintage".  That means that in the next 15 > years or so, most items now considered "vintage" will be coming up for sale, but > there will be fewer and fewer buyers driven by the nostalgia.  Prices will > likely flatten, then plummet. >   > So my advice is to eat well and exercise so you can wait everybody out and rake > in a ton of stuff cheap when the glut hits the market. >   > Chuck Kinzer >   > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris B > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:12 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > > > > > > Ray, Sean, fwiw, here's my 4 cents on value guides, fair prices, and auctions. >   > It might be useful to remember this is not an issue unique to train collecting, > but has been an ongoing story for many decades in collecting everything from > antique cars; to 2 hundred years of London & NYC auction house sales price > histories in selling antique furniture; to centuries of price history values for > collecting fine art and antiquities all over the world.  >   > Here's a longwinded personal example of what I mean by the long term impact of > time on collectible values/prices. >   >  When I was young and couldn't afford to collect HO brass even though it was > cheap and new at that time, I was an apprentice cabinetmaker learning to restore > fine 18th century American furniture worth many thousands of dollars for major > museums and federal govt buildings.  >   > The standard collector guides to american antique furniture that included price > estimates have been published annually for over a century.  They reflect both > shop prices and auction prices, but it's hard to say if they represent "fair" > prices or "true" value, even for the time they were published. >   > I started tracking the values listed at that time for certain less valuable/in > demand furniture from various later periods in american antique furniture, > including Art Deco (1920) and American Empire(1810) .  >   > One example I can think of is that what is called american Pilgrim Century > furniture (late 1600's) was nearly priceless before WWII at auctions and shops, > and dropped in value steeply ever since. >   > In 40 years, some of the Art Deco pieces I bought then have gone up > considerably, but I have no intention of ever selling them.  All of the American > Empire pieces have been sold at a small loss by now, they never appreciated, for > various subjective reasons, even though they were all completely hand made by > skilled craftsman trained in the 18th century tradition, while the Art Deco > pieces are all veneered factory made assembly line items.  >   > Those who are TCA collectors are more familiar with the model train version of > this, with what's happened to lionel values since many rare pieces have been > reproduced, or the values of HO brass steam since HO plastic steam has become so > much more equivalent in appearance with improved performance. >   > Rich people can always pay more for something they want then less affluent > people, I know we all recognize that as obvious.  What the history of antique > collecting and price/values does also tell us is that certain items go up in > value for a time when an affluent group seeks them en masse, and then pretty > rapidly drop in value when that group has passed on.  Other items sometimes > never go up, and may even go down. >   > Value is subjective, sales prices are a matter of record.  >   > Back to my seat in the back row, > Chris > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:43:45 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > > > > Hi Sean,  Will catch you later on this when you come back from the field.  There > is no offense taken from your post, and I read it with much interest. > > When using the term "unfair" I realized that it may not have been the exact word > I was looking to use, and had wrestled with using it.  But the context of my > meaning of it is that, even though any bidder is of course entitled to place a > bid of any denomination he so chooses (with him being considered as being unfair > to anyone), this bidding procedure causes an unfair advantage to those (most) of > us not having deep pockets, keeping in mind that someone with such deep pockets > is able to place a bid far in excess of what most other bidders consider an item > to be worth (and I'm not talking of just a relatively minor difference of just > $50 or so on a rare item, which anyone has an opportunity to make up this > difference if he so chooses). > > When I used $75,000 per year as a salary for an average collector, please keep > in mind this was just an example vs. that salary of someone making $300,000 > (again, just an example) per year.  I could have (and thought of) using $30,000 > (or $25,000) per year, but then I half expected I would get responses that most > people make more than that now.  I how you get my drift in the salary spread I > was trying to make. > > Agreed, out-of-print valuations -- such as those found in the various > Greenberg's Guides I brought up are useless, at least by themselves.  They only > serve (but do serve) in comparing those values to other H0 items collected duing > that period, and to get an idea of how much something was worth in the money of > that time.  To be more up to date, newer valuations need to be established on > anything you consider buying, which is where the willingness of what the average > collector would condier paying comes into play. > > I go along with you, and agree that what the average of the sum of what 10 > collectors would pay for an item would reflect what that item is now considered > to be worth, would be a fair and equitable estimate of what an item's value > could be established at.  I would go beyond removing just the 1st highest > bidder's value though, as most often he has just barely outbid the next highest > bidder -- who probably also had dep pockets if the item is viewed by most as > going excessively high.  I might also delete the two lowest bidders, knowing > that there are often a few who try to get an item for a song. > > One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as there are > people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of these rarer items > will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite possibly far in excess to > what they may be worth to this average bidder group we have both just discussed, > and also quite possibly well beyond the means of the average collector.  In that > respect, the factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item > regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct disadvantage > which in my estimation is about the same as saying this bidding system can > sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that.  I would rather be offered the > option of whether I wanted to buy an item based on a set price as compared to > what is considered to be that items value by what has been establish by the > estimates of the majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a > position to be able to have >  less value for his money.  Ray > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7221	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/29/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Greiff!   Glad someone else agrees.. I did not know how to ask it myself...  I almost did earlier, but I deleted the post before sending it.. Not that it was bad, I just did not know what to say..   I think I felt the same way..  This conversation has been interesting enough, I have even replied /read it using my cell phone while driving and walking around a strip mine site.  The latter of which being no safer, I assure you...   It is obvious that I may not agree with some of what Ray and some others have said, but that is the beauty of it.. I thought it has been an enjoyable discussion that touched on a wide range of topics, all centered around collecting vintage trains..   Admittedly, it was not a purist conversation dealing with the specifics of a single vintage piece and the few or many variations of that piece, but it was none the less informative.. Rather, I think it was more philosophical and dealt with the aspects and prospects of collecting these vintage trains on a whole, while enlightening everyone as to some different perspectives and opinions..   Oh well...   Thanks for that, it was enjoyable to hear from everyone that posted!   Sean --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote: From: Louis Greiff <louie113@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 11:00 PM    Maybe I’m missing something here, but why is the train show vs. eBay discussion thread off topic since these are two major sources of our vintage HO trains?  Some weeks back a discussion thread developed on antique automobiles, and no one asked that it be taken into private communication although it had nothing to do with vintage HO.  Frankly, I’ve found the train show vs. eBay give-and-take one of the most interesting discussions I’ve followed since I joined the group.  If it is off topic, please explain why.     Since I’ve now entered this discussion, I’ll make two other points that have been on my mind about the topic.  First off, someone can have deep pockets and be an expert on vingage HO at the same time.  The two aren’t mutually exclusive as has been implied in some of our comments.     Secondly, much of what has been said about eBay as unfair really is an indictment of our economic system in general.  Mr. Deep Pockets way overbids Mr. Average Income and gets the Reading Crusader.  Mr. Deep Pockets is seriously ill but can pay for the outrageously expensive treatment he needs to save his life.  Mr. Average Income is also seriously ill but . . . . .   Talk about unfair.                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff    On 8/29/08 11:15 AM, "pvande1@comcast. net" <pvande1@comcast. net> wrote:   Would you folks mind taking this item into private communications or at least labeling it as off topic? thanks, phil ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- - From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com <mailto:a69mustang4m e%40yahoo. com> > > I still plan on living forever... >   > You guys might as well just send me all your trains now... save me the touble of > waiting... >   >   > Sean >   > > --- On Thu, 8/28/08, ckinzer@att. net <mailto:ckinzer% 40att.net>  <ckinzer@att. net <mailto:ckinzer% 40att.net> > wrote: > > From: ckinzer@att. net <mailto:ckinzer% 40att.net>  <ckinzer@att. net <mailto:ckinzer% 40att.net> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> > Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 11:37 AM > > > > > > > > I think what sets prices isn't necessarily if an item is "rare" or "old" or > "beautiful to look at". >   > I think it is more often some emotional connection.  Most often it is some > nostalgic connection to our formative years (in high school you couldn't have > the 57 chevy that the football quarterback had who got all the girls) or some > mob fad mentality (Beanie Babies). >   > I'm guessing that those with into Vintage HO probably have an average age above > fifty (of course, the definition of "vintage" will no doubt change as many > things bought today will be tomorrows "vintage".  That means that in the next 15 > years or so, most items now considered "vintage" will be coming up for sale, but > there will be fewer and fewer buyers driven by the nostalgia.  Prices will > likely flatten, then plummet. >   > So my advice is to eat well and exercise so you can wait everybody out and rake > in a ton of stuff cheap when the glut hits the market. >   > Chuck Kinzer >   > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris B > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:12 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > > > > > > Ray, Sean, fwiw, here's my 4 cents on value guides, fair prices, and auctions. >   > It might be useful to remember this is not an issue unique to train collecting, > but has been an ongoing story for many decades in collecting everything from > antique cars; to 2 hundred years of London & NYC auction house sales price > histories in selling antique furniture; to centuries of price history values for > collecting fine art and antiquities all over the world.  >   > Here's a longwinded personal example of what I mean by the long term impact of > time on collectible values/prices. >   >  When I was young and couldn't afford to collect HO brass even though it was > cheap and new at that time, I was an apprentice cabinetmaker learning to restore > fine 18th century American furniture worth many thousands of dollars for major > museums and federal govt buildings.  >   > The standard collector guides to american antique furniture that included price > estimates have been published annually for over a century.  They reflect both > shop prices and auction prices, but it's hard to say if they represent "fair" > prices or "true" value, even for the time they were published. >   > I started tracking the values listed at that time for certain less valuable/in > demand furniture from various later periods in american antique furniture, > including Art Deco (1920) and American Empire(1810) .  >   > One example I can think of is that what is called american Pilgrim Century > furniture (late 1600's) was nearly priceless before WWII at auctions and shops, > and dropped in value steeply ever since. >   > In 40 years, some of the Art Deco pieces I bought then have gone up > considerably, but I have no intention of ever selling them.  All of the American > Empire pieces have been sold at a small loss by now, they never appreciated, for > various subjective reasons, even though they were all completely hand made by > skilled craftsman trained in the 18th century tradition, while the Art Deco > pieces are all veneered factory made assembly line items.  >   > Those who are TCA collectors are more familiar with the model train version of > this, with what's happened to lionel values since many rare pieces have been > reproduced, or the values of HO brass steam since HO plastic steam has become so > much more equivalent in appearance with improved performance. >   > Rich people can always pay more for something they want then less affluent > people, I know we all recognize that as obvious.  What the history of antique > collecting and price/values does also tell us is that certain items go up in > value for a time when an affluent group seeks them en masse, and then pretty > rapidly drop in value when that group has passed on.  Other items sometimes > never go up, and may even go down. >   > Value is subjective, sales prices are a matter of record.  >   > Back to my seat in the back row, > Chris > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:43:45 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > > > > Hi Sean,  Will catch you later on this when you come back from the field.  There > is no offense taken from your post, and I read it with much interest. > > When using the term "unfair" I realized that it may not have been the exact word > I was looking to use, and had wrestled with using it.  But the context of my > meaning of it is that, even though any bidder is of course entitled to place a > bid of any denomination he so chooses (with him being considered as being unfair > to anyone), this bidding procedure causes an unfair advantage to those (most) of > us not having deep pockets, keeping in mind that someone with such deep pockets > is able to place a bid far in excess of what most other bidders consider an item > to be worth (and I'm not talking of just a relatively minor difference of just > $50 or so on a rare item, which anyone has an opportunity to make up this > difference if he so chooses). > > When I used $75,000 per year as a salary for an average collector, please keep > in mind this was just an example vs. that salary of someone making $300,000 > (again, just an example) per year.  I could have (and thought of) using $30,000 > (or $25,000) per year, but then I half expected I would get responses that most > people make more than that now.  I how you get my drift in the salary spread I > was trying to make. > > Agreed, out-of-print valuations -- such as those found in the various > Greenberg's Guides I brought up are useless, at least by themselves.  They only > serve (but do serve) in comparing those values to other H0 items collected duing > that period, and to get an idea of how much something was worth in the money of > that time.  To be more up to date, newer valuations need to be established on > anything you consider buying, which is where the willingness of what the average > collector would condier paying comes into play. > > I go along with you, and agree that what the average of the sum of what 10 > collectors would pay for an item would reflect what that item is now considered > to be worth, would be a fair and equitable estimate of what an item's value > could be established at.  I would go beyond removing just the 1st highest > bidder's value though, as most often he has just barely outbid the next highest > bidder -- who probably also had dep pockets if the item is viewed by most as > going excessively high.  I might also delete the two lowest bidders, knowing > that there are often a few who try to get an item for a song. > > One thing I would really like to stress though is that as long as there are > people coming onto the Ebay scene with deep pockets, some of these rarer items > will be going for higher and higher prices -- quite possibly far in excess to > what they may be worth to this average bidder group we have both just discussed, > and also quite possibly well beyond the means of the average collector.  In that > respect, the factor of a few people having excess money to spend on an item > regarless of its true value puts all the rest of us at a distinct disadvantage > which in my estimation is about the same as saying this bidding system can > sometimes be unfair when it comes down to that.  I would rather be offered the > option of whether I wanted to buy an item based on a set price as compared to > what is considered to be that items value by what has been establish by the > estimates of the majority, rather than trying to beat out someone who is in a > position to be able to have >  less value for his money.  Ray > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7222	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Thank you Louis for your input, even while you seemingly are remaining neutral in this.  Your remarks at least shed some perspective on several points which seem to have been missed by most. Aside from your remarks, but adding to this topic's status, I find this discussion on the sources of our vintage H0 quite germaine and most pertinent to the very foundation of this Forum, as an indivisible part of it.  To be seen as anything else is ludicrous as it directly addresses where we are obtaining these pieces from.  Even though this discussion is not of any certain vintage model or their manufacturer does not make it any less so.   I can certainly go along with you on the wealthier bidder's awareness in these Ebay auctions.  While there are some collectors of early H0, having much money to spare, who are relatively new to the game and have no idea of what an item is worth, in my estimation there are many more wealthy collectors who know exactly what they're bidding on but will pay anything for an item they need to fill in their collection.  As these prices on Ebay go up after time, this will not reflect the items value, but will just serve to give these wealthier collectors cause to uncaringly place higher bids as for them, there's always much more money where that came from.  Thus you'll see the prices escalate on the harder to get items.   In this respect, the Ebay system is flawed in setting any kind of fair values, as is any kind of auction since it sets these values only on what the wealthiest bidders can afford.  As you point out -- this is all part of the economic system in general.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7223	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Sorry Walter, but I find I must disagree with you.  There IS a fair value.  There is a finite fair value on EVERYTHING.  Some wealthier people do not mind at all paying more for an item than it is worth -- in fact they may in some cases pay up to whatever it costs to obtain an item, as they have more than enough money to do so and think nothing of doing this in their efforts to complete their collections.  Do you feel it fair that we all need to spend far above what an item is worth as the way to obtain it?   Fair or not, there is quite often no other alternative if we want or need an item bad enough, but this is where the bidding system is flawed -- giving the richest people the unfair advantage just of having more money than the rest of us and not having a stated/stable price on these items for us to decide if we want to buy an item for that set price.  I don't think you would want to have to bid on everything you buy, such as a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, as you would soon be priced out of the market and would soon starve to death or go broke trying to stay alive.   I recently read an article on the value of human life.  Yes, apparently even that has a finite monetary value.  This value is placed at $7 Million Dollars.  I have no idea how this was established.  I might tend to think that this is the agreed price at which all insurance companies may agree to pay up to, without paying any more, but I'm really guessing on that part as I have no idea how this was derived at.  Still, this is now the established value of a human life. I read with interest in the last few posts about some members sometimes getting some good deals on Ebay, as these items were listed improperly, etc.  I say GREAT, I'm very glad some of you other collectors found some bargains, and I mean that whole-heartedly.  For some of us, which certainly includes myself, these bargains are few and far between, although I'm not complaining in the least.  I would assume (and I may be wrong) that to find some of these items you need to be lucky enough to enter a Search using the right vague wording in order to find them, and at the same time hit a site that very few other people would think of going to.  These phrases might include . . . "cast antique 4-8-4 H0 steam engine," or somrthing similar.  My searches involve using words to the effect of what I'm looking for, such as . . "Varney Northern," or even just plain "Varney," making sure I put it into the category of Toy Trains or H0 Models to eliminate the extraneous stuff. Getting back to my point of some of us getting "bargains," how would you realize that you are getting a bargain unless you have already placed a VALUE on this item, and found you were able to but this at less than you expected to pay for its fair value.  There is no other way to determine you are getting a bargain unless you have some other monetary figure (fair value price) to compare it to.  This was our objective in establishing approximate values in the various Greenberg Guides, so that a buyer could determine whether an asking price was too much (or perhaps find he was getting a bargain) and to give a seller an estimate of what to ask for an item, at a fair market price.  Of course, this was well before Ebay, and its bidding system, got into full swing.  I realize this has been the current wave, and that many members have been able to pick up some needed items, sometimes at a bargain, but almost as often a really needed item will go for much more than an average bidder can or is willing to pay.  If these items are going for too much (and we know some are), aside from not having the money to use for it, why then would we consider an item as being priced too high on Ebay if we didn't have a pre-set value of it in mind???  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7224	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I disagree, fair value is set by the market. What you think is fair may not be what someone else thinks is fair. Take your home, for example, there is an assessed value put on your property by the county (or whatever jurisdiction), to calculate your property taxes, etc. This assessment is usually not reflected in the market value. Most of the time the market value (what you can expect to get in a private sale) is much higher.   The county calls this a "fair value", however, if the county decided they need your property to build a road, they are going to take the property and give you what they call "fair value". Since you could get much more money for the property before they decided to put a road there, do you think it's fair to you to lose the difference between the two values? It doesn't sound fair to me!   Another example, take a vacation to the beach and rent a beachfront house for a week, your bound to pay double what you would for the same house one block off the beach. Would it be fair to ask the owner to of the house to lower his rent so everyone that comes to the beach can afford a beachfront house?   I think that's what all this discussion boils down to. Every collector is limited by his/her funds. There is nothing unfair about that, you buy what you can afford and dream about the rest.   Brian L.               In a message dated 8/30/2008 7:58:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, erieberk@... writes: Sorry Walter, but I find I must disagree with you.  There IS a fair value.  There is a finite fair value on EVERYTHING.  Some wealthier people do not mind at all paying more for an item than it is worth -- in fact they may in some cases pay up to whatever it costs to obtain an item, as they have more than enough money to do so and think nothing of doing this in their efforts to complete their collections.  Do you feel it fair that we all need to spend far above what an item is worth as the way to obtain it?   Fair or not, there is quite often no other alternative if we want or need an item bad enough, but this is where the bidding system is flawed -- giving the richest people the unfair advantage just of having more money than the rest of us and not having a stated/stable price on these items for us to decide if we want to buy an item for that set price.  I don't think you would want to have to bid on everything you buy, such as a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, as you would soon be priced out of the market and would soon starve to death or go broke trying to stay alive.   I recently read an article on the value of human life.  Yes, apparently even that has a finite monetary value.  This value is placed at $7 Million Dollars.  I have no idea how this was established.  I might tend to think that this is the agreed price at which all insurance companies may agree to pay up to, without paying any more, but I'm really guessing on that part as I have no idea how this was derived at.  Still, this is now the established value of a human life. I read with interest in the last few posts about some members sometimes getting some good deals on Ebay, as these items were listed improperly, etc.  I say GREAT, I'm very glad some of you other collectors found some bargains, and I mean that whole-heartedly.  For some of us, which certainly includes myself, these bargains are few and far between, although I'm not complaining in the least.  I would assume (and I may be wrong) that to find some of these items you need to be lucky enough to enter a Search using the right vague wording in order to find them, and at the same time hit a site that very few other people would think of going to.  These phrases might include . . . "cast antique 4-8-4 H0 steam engine," or somrthing similar.  My searches involve using words to the effect of what I'm looking for, such as . . "Varney Northern," or even just plain "Varney," making sure I put it into the category of Toy Trains or H0 Models to eliminate the extraneous stuff. Getting back to my point of some of us getting "bargains," how would you realize that you are getting a bargain unless you have already placed a VALUE on this item, and found you were able to but this at less than you expected to pay for its fair value.  There is no other way to determine you are getting a bargain unless you have some other monetary figure (fair value price) to compare it to.  This was our objective in establishing approximate values in the various Greenberg Guides, so that a buyer could determine whether an asking price was too much (or perhaps find he was getting a bargain) and to give a seller an estimate of what to ask for an item, at a fair market price.  Of course, this was well before Ebay, and its bidding system, got into full swing.  I realize this has been the current wave, and that many members have been able to pick up some needed items, sometimes at a bargain, but almost as often a really needed item will go for much more than an average bidder can or is willing to pay.  If these items are going for too much (and we know some are), aside from not having the money to use for it, why then would we consider an item as being priced too high on Ebay if we didn't have a pre-set value of it in mind???  Ray It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7225	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's

John Hagen writes- Short and sweet, the good olde days, fascinating as they may be, were  not always THAT good. Very accurate observation. The history of HO model railroading is littered with some pretty rough cobs.  Most  judge these old models principally at least on two levels: 1) How they stood up to the standards of the day, and 2) How they have stood up to the passage of time. I rate them a third way: how as models of the real thing they actually measure up to current standards of prototype accuracy. In reality, and not unexpectedly, many or most do not;  but a surprising number can still hold their own in the midst of, at at the head end of a train of today's finest resin, or brass cars. Denny Denny S.  Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7226	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

The example of the beachfront house vs. the house a block away from the beach just points out that the owner (of the beachfront house) is asking as much money as he can get -- during the Season.  On off-Season times, he could not get nearly that amount.  Where does the value of renting this house come in -- somewhere in between?  During off-Season, it has to be considered a fair value at the much reduced rate or he wouldn't be able to rent it.   If asking as much as he can during the Season as opposed what he's able to ask off-Season, is not unfair -- then its at least openly taking advantage of the situation, both from the standpoint of location and from the standpoint of the time of year and other people's desire to inhabit it at the particular time. This is starting to get off-topic, as the connection to buying H0 trains is getting thin, but if you're saying this is not unfair (and I'm not arguing with you here -- but neither am I necessarily agreeing), I would like to point out that this top dollar asking price is just a wee bit below what may be considered price-gouging.  One step over that line by asking any more would be considered as such.  Presently (today), in the State of Mississippi, there are some individuals are companies who are raising prices at this very moment of gasoline, plywood and generators in expectations that Hurricane Gustav will soon be hitting that state sometime early next week.  There have already been some gas stations which have boosted their prices by 20 cents per gallon.  If you think this is fair, then why is the Governor of Mississippi cracking down on these service stations citing them with price gouging???  These gas station owners are in line with being fined and going to jail, as the Governor is not tolerating it.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7227	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Ray,   I still am having trouble grasping this "fair price" on these vintage trains you speak of.. Who sets it? If you are saying that the people who are willing to pay the average or middle of the road price are the ones who are responsible for setting the price and not the most recent sales on similar pieces.. that that goes against the entire free market system.   I myself rarely get beat..when I bid. I am not rich nor do I have deep pockets. I also have a growing knowledge of these vintage trains. So, I am not a novice, usually, when it comes to knowing what I am bidding on and what I consider to be the items value. (notice I is in bold font). I believe that I being the bidder on that  vintage train, that I am playing some part in establishing a current value on that vintage train.   As for my searches... I use Varney too, but usually look for ...  "different" "unknown" "various" etc...   All of which very veigh and I use the single word and that is it. Sure, I might have 400-900 items to sort through, but I do it efficiently.  If you chose to look for specifics, then be prepared to face the higher prices. Most peole are not willing to work for their searches. Sometimes I do look for specifics as well.. and those are usually the ones I get beat on. But in any case.. I know another will come along and I will have another chance.. Eventually,if i keep getting beat on the same engine, I have to chose to come to terms with the prospects of paying more on certain engines or never getting one.  I have never chosen the latter.. I believe values are constantly on the move, depending on the current interest in the pieces.. They do not stay at some permanent arbitrary level (set by the average) while there are some extremists who are just bidding high because they have some apparent disregard for an items value...  I think they are the ones setting the value.  I am one of the ones who is willing to pay $200+/- for a Varney Super Mikado.. I had an offer of $250 for my pre-war Mantua Mountain Type Mechanism kit and I declined.. (worth more to me). Honestly, I do not know if either is worth it in the free market, but they are to me...   Sean         --- On Sat, 8/30/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 7:57 AM Sorry Walter, but I find I must disagree with you.  There IS a fair value.  There is a finite fair value on EVERYTHING.  Some wealthier people do not mind at all paying more for an item than it is worth -- in fact they may in some cases pay up to whatever it costs to obtain an item, as they have more than enough money to do so and think nothing of doing this in their efforts to complete their collections.  Do you feel it fair that we all need to spend far above what an item is worth as the way to obtain it?   Fair or not, there is quite often no other alternative if we want or need an item bad enough, but this is where the bidding system is flawed -- giving the richest people the unfair advantage just of having more money than the rest of us and not having a stated/stable price on these items for us to decide if we want to buy an item for that set price.  I don't think you would want to have to bid on everything you buy, such as a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, as you would soon be priced out of the market and would soon starve to death or go broke trying to stay alive.   I recently read an article on the value of human life.  Yes, apparently even that has a finite monetary value.  This value is placed at $7 Million Dollars.  I have no idea how this was established.  I might tend to think that this is the agreed price at which all insurance companies may agree to pay up to, without paying any more, but I'm really guessing on that part as I have no idea how this was derived at.  Still, this is now the established value of a human life. I read with interest in the last few posts about some members sometimes getting some good deals on Ebay, as these items were listed improperly, etc.  I say GREAT, I'm very glad some of you other collectors found some bargains, and I mean that whole-heartedly.  For some of us, which certainly includes myself, these bargains are few and far between, although I'm not complaining in the least.  I would assume (and I may be wrong) that to find some of these items you need to be lucky enough to enter a Search using the right vague wording in order to find them, and at the same time hit a site that very few other people would think of going to.  These phrases might include . . . "cast antique 4-8-4 H0 steam engine," or somrthing similar.  My searches involve using words to the effect of what I'm looking for, such as . . "Varney Northern," or even just plain "Varney," making sure I put it into the category of Toy Trains or H0 Models to eliminate the extraneous stuff. Getting back to my point of some of us getting "bargains," how would you realize that you are getting a bargain unless you have already placed a VALUE on this item, and found you were able to but this at less than you expected to pay for its fair value.  There is no other way to determine you are getting a bargain unless you have some other monetary figure (fair value price) to compare it to.  This was our objective in establishing approximate values in the various Greenberg Guides, so that a buyer could determine whether an asking price was too much (or perhaps find he was getting a bargain) and to give a seller an estimate of what to ask for an item, at a fair market price.  Of course, this was well before Ebay, and its bidding system, got into full swing.  I realize this has been the current wave, and that many members have been able to pick up some needed items, sometimes at a bargain, but almost as often a really needed item will go for much more than an average bidder can or is willing to pay.  If these items are going for too much (and we know some are), aside from not having the money to use for it, why then would we consider an item as being priced too high on Ebay if we didn't have a pre-set value of it in mind???  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7228	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Lawrence Labs GP-7

Attachments : Good Morning Gerold (from the USA)          Hope you won't mind but this item is also for my good friend and fellow collector Sean and for anyone else interested.    This is a Lawrence Laboratory GP 7. The address of their company was    1668 Euclid St. Santa Monica Calif. This is a mint kit in original box with paper work. This engine was made in 1950 and reviewed in the Jan 51 issue of Model Railroader. you will notice the box says Lawrence Lines made by Lawrence Labratory. (especially for Sean). The little LL that you asked about that is inscribed inside the body is for Lawrence Lines or Lawrence Labs. For others not Life Like.      This is a cast brass/bronze model that used Lindsay power trucks. There is even a sheet inside box describing the Lindsay power unit. The write up in MR states " The beautiful bronze and brass lost wax castings make this one of the most finely detailed diesel kit locos we have seen. Everything is there, from the handles of the fuel tanks to the T shaped handrail pipe joints. Even the multiple unit connections are shown on both ends. What really makes you take a second look are the handrails that are cast integrally with the frame. (no mention of who cast this).     In my mind one of the nicest early vintage castings you can find. Many people today use this body as a starting point for their projects. and with the Lindsay power you don't need to change that. This is one of those early models that stands the test of time and can compete with a lot newer items     This is the only model , in my collection, I have two of. Along with the mint kit I have one assembled and ran it on my old layout. From what I know the only engine this company put out.                                                     Till tomorrow               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7229	From: Rick Jones	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

> In this respect, the Ebay system is flawed in > setting any kind of fair > values, as is any kind of auction since it sets > these values only on what the > wealthiest bidders can afford. As you point out -- > this is all part of the economic > system in general. I believe that is perhaps only true for rare items. More common items, such as a PFM Frisco Russian Decapod or an Ambroid Western Union Car, are more likely to reach some sort of equilibrium due to the regularity of their appearance on the auction lists. I have found eBay to be a useful resource for finding things that interest me that don't show up at the occasional train swap meet/show that comes to Houston. My last purchase was one of the nice Sheepscot OOP coaling towers, which I had not found from any local source. Without the resource eBay provides I may not have found one. OTOH, as others have pointed out, I'm not willing to bid up to $35-40 for those nice old Central Vally kits that originally were around $4-5 each. Rick Jones

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7230	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Fw: Lawrence Labs GP-7

Attachments : Hi Again,              Have to get my morning coffee to straighten up. Forgot to include the pictures the second time. Try again ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 10:28 AM Subject: Lawrence Labs GP-7 Good Morning Gerold (from the USA)          Hope you won't mind but this item is also for my good friend and fellow collector Sean and for anyone else interested.    This is a Lawrence Laboratory GP 7. The address of their company was    1668 Euclid St. Santa Monica Calif. This is a mint kit in original box with paper work. This engine was made in 1950 and reviewed in the Jan 51 issue of Model Railroader. you will notice the box says Lawrence Lines made by Lawrence Labratory. (especially for Sean). The little LL that you asked about that is inscribed inside the body is for Lawrence Lines or Lawrence Labs. For others not Life Like.      This is a cast brass/bronze model that used Lindsay power trucks. There is even a sheet inside box describing the Lindsay power unit. The write up in MR states " The beautiful bronze and brass lost wax castings make this one of the most finely detailed diesel kit locos we have seen. Everything is there, from the handles of the fuel tanks to the T shaped handrail pipe joints. Even the multiple unit connections are shown on both ends. What really makes you take a second look are the handrails that are cast integrally with the frame. (no mention of who cast this).     In my mind one of the nicest early vintage castings you can find. Many people today use this body as a starting point for their projects. and with the Lindsay power you don't need to change that. This is one of those early models that stands the test of time and can compete with a lot newer items     This is the only model , in my collection, I have two of. Along with the mint kit I have one assembled and ran it on my old layout. From what I know the only engine this company put out.                                                     Till tomorrow               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7231	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

It also addresses where to sell, not just buy, items.  If, by choice or necessity, it becomes necessary to sell and there isn't already some "inner circle" person ready to pony up enough dollars, the choices seem to be ebay, train shows, perhaps a garage sale, or perhaps a local antique store.  The best choice seems to be ebay to me (even if doing it through a service).   Of course, if a collection has enough horsepower, a professional auction operation might handle it.  And along with an actual live auction, it might simultaneously be a live auction on - you guessed it - ebay.   Chuck K.   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 4:09 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Thank you Louis for your input, even while you seemingly are remaining neutral in this.  Your remarks at least shed some perspective on several points which seem to have been missed by most. Aside from your remarks, but adding to this topic's status, I find this discussion on the sources of our vintage H0 quite germaine and most pertinent to the very foundation of this Forum, as an indivisible part of it.  To be seen as anything else is ludicrous as it directly addresses where we are obtaining these pieces from.  Even though this discussion is not of any certain vintage model or their manufacturer does not make it any less so.   I can certainly go along with you on the wealthier bidder's awareness in these Ebay auctions.  While there are some collectors of early H0, having much money to spare, who are relatively new to the game and have no idea of what an item is worth, in my estimation there are many more wealthy collectors who know exactly what they're bidding on but will pay anything for an item they need to fill in their collection.  As these prices on Ebay go up after time, this will not reflect the items value, but will just serve to give these wealthier collectors cause to uncaringly place higher bids as for them, there's always much more money where that came from.  Thus you'll see the prices escalate on the harder to get items.   In this respect, the Ebay system is flawed in setting any kind of fair values, as is any kind of auction since it sets these values only on what the wealthiest bidders can afford.  As you point out -- this is all part of the economic system in general.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7232	From: wildwoodjct	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Train-Miniature

Tho these plastic kits are only on the fringe of 'vintage' as each day goes by they become more vintage. Train-Miniature was in La Mesa California. The kits first appeared in the mid to late 1960s. They were inexpensive yet well-scaled and detailed for the time. Yesterday I assembled a reefer car. They are also easy to assemble! Our eBay vs train show discussion notwithstanding, I still find occasionally Train- Miniature kits at train shows for very reasonable prices.--John

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7233	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I think examples like milk and bread are not at all relevant.  For those items, there is a vast number of buyers and sellers.  In a way, you are bidding on those items by being willing to walk out of one market and into another for a better price.  If they auctioned such food, the prices would be just as they are now because the number of bidders would remain the same number of millions, and those selling at auction would need to compete against each other and there would be many sellers due to the large market size.   I can't afford a Van Gogh, but I don't disparage those who can.  If you are hoping for some scheme of auctions as socialism, you will probably have a long wait.   If you find yourself priced out of the "Van Gogh's" of railroad items, then so be it.  Not everyone can afford everything.  But, in general, the value of an item is what it will sell for, not what some folks wish it would sell for.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Sorry Walter, but I find I must disagree with you.  There IS a fair value.  There is a finite fair value on EVERYTHING.  Some wealthier people do not mind at all paying more for an item than it is worth -- in fact they may in some cases pay up to whatever it costs to obtain an item, as they have more than enough money to do so and think nothing of doing this in their efforts to complete their collections.  Do you feel it fair that we all need to spend far above what an item is worth as the way to obtain it?   Fair or not, there is quite often no other alternative if we want or need an item bad enough, but this is where the bidding system is flawed -- giving the richest people the unfair advantage just of having more money than the rest of us and not having a stated/stable price on these items for us to decide if we want to buy an item for that set price.  I don't think you would want to have to bid on everything you buy, such as a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, as you would soon be priced out of the market and would soon starve to death or go broke trying to stay alive.   I recently read an article on the value of human life.  Yes, apparently even that has a finite monetary value.  This value is placed at $7 Million Dollars.  I have no idea how this was established.  I might tend to think that this is the agreed price at which all insurance companies may agree to pay up to, without paying any more, but I'm really guessing on that part as I have no idea how this was derived at.  Still, this is now the established value of a human life. I read with interest in the last few posts about some members sometimes getting some good deals on Ebay, as these items were listed improperly, etc.  I say GREAT, I'm very glad some of you other collectors found some bargains, and I mean that whole-heartedly.  For some of us, which certainly includes myself, these bargains are few and far between, although I'm not complaining in the least.  I would assume (and I may be wrong) that to find some of these items you need to be lucky enough to enter a Search using the right vague wording in order to find them, and at the same time hit a site that very few other people would think of going to.  These phrases might include . . . "cast antique 4-8-4 H0 steam engine," or somrthing similar.  My searches involve using words to the effect of what I'm looking for, such as . . "Varney Northern," or even just plain "Varney," making sure I put it into the category of Toy Trains or H0 Models to eliminate the extraneous stuff. Getting back to my point of some of us getting "bargains," how would you realize that you are getting a bargain unless you have already placed a VALUE on this item, and found you were able to but this at less than you expected to pay for its fair value.  There is no other way to determine you are getting a bargain unless you have some other monetary figure (fair value price) to compare it to.  This was our objective in establishing approximate values in the various Greenberg Guides, so that a buyer could determine whether an asking price was too much (or perhaps find he was getting a bargain) and to give a seller an estimate of what to ask for an item, at a fair market price.  Of course, this was well before Ebay, and its bidding system, got into full swing.  I realize this has been the current wave, and that many members have been able to pick up some needed items, sometimes at a bargain, but almost as often a really needed item will go for much more than an average bidder can or is willing to pay.  If these items are going for too much (and we know some are), aside from not having the money to use for it, why then would we consider an item as being priced too high on Ebay if we didn't have a pre-set value of it in mind???  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7234	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I think it is worth noting that equating the highest bidders with "wealthy" bidders assumes facts not in evidence.   The high bidder, evern a very high bidder, is not necessarily wealthy.  Conversely, someone who bids low is not necessarily "poor".   I am far from being a wealthy person, but if I choose to do without this or that, or drive a fifteen year old car, or whatever, maybe I can buy that particular brass Crown model or something.  I just can't buy all of them.   So average, or below average, people might also pay "more thatn what an item is worth".   So your assumption that the times you get aced out by somebody paying a high price, that the person is one of those dastardly "wealthy" people, perhaps says more about your perceptions than the auction realities.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Sorry Walter, but I find I must disagree with you.  There IS a fair value.  There is a finite fair value on EVERYTHING.  Some wealthier people do not mind at all paying more for an item than it is worth -- in fact they may in some cases pay up to whatever it costs to obtain an item, as they have more than enough money to do so and think nothing of doing this in their efforts to complete their collections.  Do you feel it fair that we all need to spend far above what an item is worth as the way to obtain it?   Fair or not, there is quite often no other alternative if we want or need an item bad enough, but this is where the bidding system is flawed -- giving the richest people the unfair advantage just of having more money than the rest of us and not having a stated/stable price on these items for us to decide if we want to buy an item for that set price.  I don't think you would want to have to bid on everything you buy, such as a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, as you would soon be priced out of the market and would soon starve to death or go broke trying to stay alive.   I recently read an article on the value of human life.  Yes, apparently even that has a finite monetary value.  This value is placed at $7 Million Dollars.  I have no idea how this was established.  I might tend to think that this is the agreed price at which all insurance companies may agree to pay up to, without paying any more, but I'm really guessing on that part as I have no idea how this was derived at.  Still, this is now the established value of a human life. I read with interest in the last few posts about some members sometimes getting some good deals on Ebay, as these items were listed improperly, etc.  I say GREAT, I'm very glad some of you other collectors found some bargains, and I mean that whole-heartedly.  For some of us, which certainly includes myself, these bargains are few and far between, although I'm not complaining in the least.  I would assume (and I may be wrong) that to find some of these items you need to be lucky enough to enter a Search using the right vague wording in order to find them, and at the same time hit a site that very few other people would think of going to.  These phrases might include . . . "cast antique 4-8-4 H0 steam engine," or somrthing similar.  My searches involve using words to the effect of what I'm looking for, such as . . "Varney Northern," or even just plain "Varney," making sure I put it into the category of Toy Trains or H0 Models to eliminate the extraneous stuff. Getting back to my point of some of us getting "bargains," how would you realize that you are getting a bargain unless you have already placed a VALUE on this item, and found you were able to but this at less than you expected to pay for its fair value.  There is no other way to determine you are getting a bargain unless you have some other monetary figure (fair value price) to compare it to.  This was our objective in establishing approximate values in the various Greenberg Guides, so that a buyer could determine whether an asking price was too much (or perhaps find he was getting a bargain) and to give a seller an estimate of what to ask for an item, at a fair market price.  Of course, this was well before Ebay, and its bidding system, got into full swing.  I realize this has been the current wave, and that many members have been able to pick up some needed items, sometimes at a bargain, but almost as often a really needed item will go for much more than an average bidder can or is willing to pay.  If these items are going for too much (and we know some are), aside from not having the money to use for it, why then would we consider an item as being priced too high on Ebay if we didn't have a pre-set value of it in mind???  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7235	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Sean,  I think you're beginning to grasp what I'm saying.  Yes, in my estimation,. the value of an item is what its viewed at in middle-of-the-road terms.  This is not to say that you or anyone else may not have a different value of it, especially if you're willing to pay more knowing (or possibly not being aware) that you're overpaying.  If an item can be seen as being a bargain at times, by many . . . and another item may be seen as being too high priced, then it would seem obvious that the value of an item must fall somewhere in the middle, as seen by most people.  If everyone thought nothing of high prices for some of these items, and bid irrespective of what it was worth, it would be difficult for even you to win these items.  You are willing to pay more because it has a higher value to you, but not because the item is worth anymore.  Had it really been worth any more than what is considered by most to be a fair value, then everybody would be prepared and willing to pay at least what you're paying. As you said it . . . you (I) consider what the items are valued at (in your view of them).  When continuing to place higher bids than what an item is really worth, then yes, you are helping to drive up the price of the item, but not necessarily the value of it.  But in doing so, I understand this is sometimes a necessary way to obtain a needed item, in this bidding system -- that's what Ebay is all about.  You may decide to pay what you want for an item, that's entirely up to you and is no concern of mine.  It all comes down to how badly anyone wants an item, but again is not how the average bidder values it. You're absolutely right, none of these items stay at the same value.  Like anything else, as salaries increase along with the cost of living and the rise in values of most everything else around us (except for some temporary downfalls resulting from outside influences -- such as the present home values and drop in many securities), the values of these items too are in general steadily rising along with this.  In general, because of any flutuations in demand as part of this scenario.  Then too, there will be a time in the not-too-distant future when the mortgage/housing debacle will smooth itself out, and stocks will again rise as that has been the history of the stock market since its inception.  While it is sometimes needed to bid more than an item is really worth to get it, paying top dollar for anything may be viewed as somewhat reckless (but fine with you if you want it bad enough), and never the smartest thing to do, but then we collectors don't always bid from the brain.  Paying top dollar (along with uneducated balloon mortgages) is part of what got a lot of homeowners in trouble, and what causes stock investors to lose out when the market drops.  Of course, I realize that you don't ever intend on reselling any of your collection, but I'm just saying you're sometimes paying more than an item is worth to many other people, if not to yourself.  There have been times when, after a collector has paid top dollar for some items to add to his collection, that he has needed that money going only a short time forward (for other expenses unforseen), and when trying to re-sell these items he's been unable to get what he has paid as the value of the items have dropped, and so, lost money.  I've seen it with some other collectors I know -- and their items were well advertised, reaching many other top collectors.  Best,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7236	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Dream on -- anything marketable is relevant to the marketability of H0 trains as addressed in this discussion.  You don't think that if it came down to having to bid on everyday staple items, that the richer people wouldn't watch out for themselves rather than go without???  Such practices are what drives up a market.  Why do you think the price of oil is rising so steeply???  There is much demand for it, and other countries, such as China, are more than willing to go the price.  And please don't say this has nothing to do with the price of H0 trains -- its an example of what happens when there is a demand for anything, and people are willing to pay the ever increasing going rate.  Such is the case on Ebay. I'm not advocating any such thing as socialism in obtaining these collector items.  I would appreciate it if you do not try to put words in my mouth.  If you want to keep bidding high prices to fill out your collection, go right ahead -- don't let me stop you.  Its no sweat off of my back.  I also use Ebay fairly frequently, but have a sense of knowing where to draw the line on what I'm going to pay -- as does everybody else, I would assume -- even though your line is higher.  So be it.   The way I see it -- and again this is just MY opinion -- train shows at least give everyone a fair chance of getting any certain item, but if you're earnest enough in your quest for these items, it will pay you not to get on the end of the line, if you're serious about finding anything -- you have to make the effort.  But as you have your opinions, and I have mine, to debate this any further is to be beating a dead horse.  Maybe we've at least displayed the pro's and con's of each.  Regards,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7237	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Then let's say that, even though there are wealthier people out there willing to spend any amount (do you refute this?), that there may also be people who might spend more than others, even if they may not be loaded.  That comes down to personal priorities. TO EACH, HIS OWN.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7238	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

OK, I'll keep dreaming on.  Gas is a good example.  I don't see one gas station at $4 per gallon, and another at $25 per gallon.  They tend to ALL be in a fairly tight range at any point in time.  NONE are priced far above the "fair" value.  If there were somehow a way to auction it gallon by gallon and individual to individual, the "wealthy" (whatever that is) would be such a tiny percentage of the users they would have virtually no effect on auction prices.   That's why your comparison is flawed.  If we would see the same HO item appear in 15,000 auctions, there would be a rather low and nominal price that could even be below intrinsic value.   Supply and demand for a commodity item is simply not the same as supply and demand for a scarce or one of a kind item.   Chuck K.   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Dream on -- anything marketable is relevant to the marketability of H0 trains as addressed in this discussion.  You don't think that if it came down to having to bid on everyday staple items, that the richer people wouldn't watch out for themselves rather than go without???  Such practices are what drives up a market.  Why do you think the price of oil is rising so steeply???  There is much demand for it, and other countries, such as China, are more than willing to go the price.  And please don't say this has nothing to do with the price of H0 trains -- its an example of what happens when there is a demand for anything, and people are willing to pay the ever increasing going rate.  Such is the case on Ebay. I'm not advocating any such thing as socialism in obtaining these collector items.  I would appreciate it if you do not try to put words in my mouth.  If you want to keep bidding high prices to fill out your collection, go right ahead -- don't let me stop you.  Its no sweat off of my back.  I also use Ebay fairly frequently, but have a sense of knowing where to draw the line on what I'm going to pay -- as does everybody else, I would assume -- even though your line is higher.  So be it.   The way I see it -- and again this is just MY opinion -- train shows at least give everyone a fair chance of getting any certain item, but if you're earnest enough in your quest for these items, it will pay you not to get on the end of the line, if you're serious about finding anything -- you have to make the effort.  But as you have your opinions, and I have mine, to debate this any further is to be beating a dead horse.  Maybe we've at least displayed the pro's and con's of each.  Regards,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7239	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Hi John,  While I'm not much of a plastic collector, I do have a number (not a lot) of the Train-Miniature cars, and found them to be fairly well detailed.  I know that they're collectable, even if they may not really be considered "vintage" (or are they?), as even 15 years ago when I was in Spanagel's H0 SC&H - SIG, there were collectors of them then.  I also like those early Athearn plastic reefers with the moveable metal doors.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7240	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher

Attachments : Hi Gerold and others,                 I'm sending these pictures quickly after sending the Lawrence Labs GP-7 for two reasons. One to show and one two judge if these castings were done by the same company.          The Lindsay line of HO and his famous motors was started by J Robert Lindsay (better known as Bob Lindsay who designed engines and motors for Gordon Varney before he left to start his own company)           This is the Lindsay 1000 HP switcher.  The address was    Lindsay Products Inc.    8207 Stewart Ave.    Los Angeles 45 Calif.     Lindsay made a number of engines including a PA, FA and 0-4-0 'Little Stubby". I don't intend to send these as Lindsay was a little more known vintage HO. (Anyone wanting information, pictures or paperwork on them I can provide from my collection). The main reasons I chose this. It's the only cast brass/bronze engine Lindsay made and  mint in kit form with original box and paperwork. . All the other Lindsay engines are a cast metal.   Second the quality of the castings which are very similar in quality and metal used. I'm not a metallurgist and it doesn't state exactly what so I just use brass/bronze to distinguish from cast metal (zamac,lead and others).             t The cast pieces are excellent in detail having many features of the Lawrence GP-7 castings. this has the T's on the handrails standing out like the Lawrence castings to name one.           I am wondering if the same caster did both and if so WHO WAS IT. If you can help let me know.                                                                    Have a good one                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7241	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Certainly the value of an item is partly subjective based on the minimum price a seller will accept and the maximum price a buyer will pay.  But one bit of evidence for an absolute as well as a relative side to value is the existence of price guides.  The toy train hobbyists have no end of price guides, published commercially for profit, and most of these guides are updated every year.  I wish we had something like this for vintage HO.  It would not entirely solve the problems of overpayment and unfairness, but it would create a rough measure for all of us, as it has done in the toy train field, of what’s a reasonable price for an item and what isn’t.                                                                                                                                                   Lou Greiff      On 8/30/08 12:45 PM, "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...> wrote:   OK, I'll keep dreaming on.  Gas is a good example.  I don't see one gas station at $4 per gallon, and another at $25 per gallon.  They tend to ALL be in a fairly tight range at any point in time.  NONE are priced far above the "fair" value.  If there were somehow a way to auction it gallon by gallon and individual to individual, the "wealthy" (whatever that is) would be such a tiny percentage of the users they would have virtually no effect on auction prices. That's why your comparison is flawed.  If we would see the same HO item appear in 15,000 auctions, there would be a rather low and nominal price that could even be below intrinsic value. Supply and demand for a commodity item is simply not the same as supply and demand for a scarce or one of a kind item. Chuck K. ----- Original Message -----   From:  erieberk@...   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com   Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 9:37  AM   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train  Shows vs Ebay       Dream on -- anything  marketable is relevant to the marketability of H0 trains as addressed in this  discussion.  You don't think that if it came down to having to bid on  everyday staple items, that the richer people wouldn't watch out for  themselves rather than go without???  Such practices are what drives up a  market.  Why do you think the price of oil is rising so steeply???   There is much demand for it, and other countries, such as China, are  more than willing to go the price.  And please don't say this has nothing  to do with the price of H0 trains -- its an example of what happens when there  is a demand for anything, and people are willing to pay the ever increasing  going rate.  Such is the case on Ebay. I'm not advocating any  such thing as socialism in obtaining these collector items.  I would  appreciate it if you do not try to put words in my mouth.  If you want to  keep bidding high prices to fill out your collection, go right ahead -- don't  let me stop you.  Its no sweat off of my back.  I also use Ebay  fairly frequently, but have a sense of knowing where to draw the line on what  I'm going to pay -- as does everybody else, I would assume -- even though your  line is higher.  So be it.    The way I see it -- and again  this is just MY opinion -- train shows at least give everyone a fair chance of  getting any certain item, but if you're earnest enough in your quest for these  items, it will pay you not to get on the end of the line, if you're serious  about finding anything -- you have to make the effort.  But as you have  your opinions, and I have mine, to debate this any further is to be beating a  dead horse.  Maybe we've at least displayed the pro's and con's of each.   Regards,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7242	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I never said there was any such inequity in the prices of gasoline, such as you're suggesting in this $4 to $25 per gallon spread.  Nor have I even mentioned anything about any H0 item having inequality in their pricing.  Unless advertised wrong, Varney Yellowstones will always command a higher price.  The same can be said of most pre-War Mantua engines, the Consol probably most consistantly going the highest. If only 10% of your 15,000 Ebay sites each offered a Penn Line Crusader, you can bet that the prices would come down at least to some degree.  But as we know, there were never that many of them made, so they are naturally more in demand.  I don't think I follow your point here though, except to recognize that our H0 collector's market is a situation of supply and demand -- as we're all aware.  This does not take away from this item having a set value (of somewhere around $1200), even though there may be some people willing to spend more.  As I just got done saying -- some people may place a higher personal value on an item than what is established.  You may beat this dead horse further, but as for me, I think its time to bury him.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7243	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

I remember buying Train Minatures in the '70s from my local hobby shope (now gone from this life) I thought they were new then not from the sixties. Am I mistaken or was it just released items I was buying? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 12:52:54 EDT Hi John,  While I'm not much of a plastic collector, I do have a number (not a lot) of the Train-Miniature cars, and found them to be fairly well detailed.  I know that they're collectable, even if they may not really be considered "vintage" (or are they?), as even 15 years ago when I was in Spanagel's H0 SC&H - SIG, there were collectors of them then.  I also like those early Athearn plastic reefers with the moveable metal doors.  Ray -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7244	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Guys,   I remember over the years on the Otrains list, we used to have this same conversation, we all finally came to the conclusion that anything on ebay is usually valued at whatever the high bidder is willing to pay for it, there are some that are absolutely rediculous in price, some of them are even professionally weathered freight cars, in plastic no less, but if someone is willing to pay the price, so be it.   I might also add, every once in awhile, how many of the super high bidders don't actually pay? Most probably do, but there are those few who do not.........:o)   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7245	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Hi John,   The old Train Miniture line was re-issued by Walthers in the 1980's........:o)   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7246	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher

Attachments : Hi Gerold,      Something wrong. This is the second time today I tried to send out pictures. Computer says sent but they never come back on the vintageHO site like normal. So again not sure they are getting through. Trying again. If two come disregard one.          Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 12:52 PM Subject: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher Hi Gerold and others,                 I'm sending these pictures quickly after sending the Lawrence Labs GP-7 for two reasons. One to show and one two judge if these castings were done by the same company.          The Lindsay line of HO and his famous motors was started by J Robert Lindsay (better known as Bob Lindsay who designed engines and motors for Gordon Varney before he left to start his own company)           This is the Lindsay 1000 HP switcher.  The address was    Lindsay Products Inc.    8207 Stewart Ave.    Los Angeles 45 Calif.     Lindsay made a number of engines including a PA, FA and 0-4-0 'Little Stubby". I don't intend to send these as Lindsay was a little more known vintage HO. (Anyone wanting information, pictures or paperwork on them I can provide from my collection). The main reasons I chose this. It's the only cast brass/bronze engine Lindsay made and  mint in kit form with original box and paperwork. . All the other Lindsay engines are a cast metal.   Second the quality of the castings which are very similar in quality and metal used. I'm not a metallurgist and it doesn't state exactly what so I just use brass/bronze to distinguish from cast metal (zamac,lead and others).             t The cast pieces are excellent in detail having many features of the Lawrence GP-7 castings. this has the T's on the handrails standing out like the Lawrence castings to name one.           I am wondering if the same caster did both and if so WHO WAS IT. If you can help let me know.                                                                    Have a good one                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7247	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lawrence Labs GP-7

Hi Jim,   Its sad that things like this aren't put out today, that looks like a really nice kit, and as you said, would stand the test of time, even well detailed by todays standards.......:o)     Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7248	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Louis,  Well, at least you're pointing out that there is such a thing as set values for at least some toy and model trains, even if not in H0.  That there is nothing published in H0 as to their values, does not negate the fact that such values do exist, at least as determined in most collectors' set of mind towards how he values them.  For people to say that other trains do in fact have set values (even if bids on them may fluctuate) and to then say that only H0 trains do not, does not make much sense.  Yes, we could use an update on the values that were set some 20 years ago, in addition to those manufacturers which never got reviewed, but I guess we'll have a long wait.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7249	From: Steven Winter	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher

Jim,   Must be your browser ... I got them fine here in NJ both times.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 1:16 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher Hi Gerold,      Something wrong. This is the second time today I tried to send out pictures. Computer says sent but they never come back on the vintageHO site like normal. So again not sure they are getting through. Trying again. If two come disregard one.          Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 12:52 PM Subject: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher Hi Gerold and others,                 I'm sending these pictures quickly after sending the Lawrence Labs GP-7 for two reasons. One to show and one two judge if these castings were done by the same company.          The Lindsay line of HO and his famous motors was started by J Robert Lindsay (better known as Bob Lindsay who designed engines and motors for Gordon Varney before he left to start his own company)           This is the Lindsay 1000 HP switcher.  The address was    Lindsay Products Inc.    8207 Stewart Ave.    Los Angeles 45 Calif.     Lindsay made a number of engines including a PA, FA and 0-4-0 'Little Stubby". I don't intend to send these as Lindsay was a little more known vintage HO. (Anyone wanting information, pictures or paperwork on them I can provide from my collection). The main reasons I chose this. It's the only cast brass/bronze engine Lindsay made and  mint in kit form with original box and paperwork. . All the other Lindsay engines are a cast metal.   Second the quality of the castings which are very similar in quality and metal used. I'm not a metallurgist and it doesn't state exactly what so I just use brass/bronze to distinguish from cast metal (zamac,lead and others).             t The cast pieces are excellent in detail having many features of the Lawrence GP-7 castings. this has the T's on the handrails standing out like the Lawrence castings to name one.           I am wondering if the same caster did both and if so WHO WAS IT. If you can help let me know.                                                                    Have a good one                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7250	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Gary,  I think you just brought up the key words -- ON EBAY !!!  I would probably have to go along with this, as how else can anyone win an item except to pay the winning (highest) price.  This does not reflect what an item may be worth, but merely what the highest bidder is willing to pay for an item.  On the open market, the same item may not be priced nearly as high.  But then as I said, to each his own.  If someone prefers to constantly pay the highest price over everyone else (and how else can you win the bid), than that's their prerogative -- but has nothing to do with the actual value of the item -- only what that person values it at, and possibly the followers on Ebay who bid nearly the same.  The Ebay (auction) world and the established market (as on lists or in train meets, etc.) having set prices are entirely two different things.  This is borne out in the set valuations of what other scales set their models at, as Louis reminded us of.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7251	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher

Steven,         I couldn't be sure they were going. as my son always tells me to restart the computer as it usually stops problems. So we will do that as long as I know things are going out. thanks for responding                                                                                                     Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher Jim,   Must be your browser ... I got them fine here in NJ both times.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 1:16 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher Hi Gerold,      Something wrong. This is the second time today I tried to send out pictures. Computer says sent but they never come back on the vintageHO site like normal. So again not sure they are getting through. Trying again. If two come disregard one.          Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 12:52 PM Subject: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher Hi Gerold and others,                 I'm sending these pictures quickly after sending the Lawrence Labs GP-7 for two reasons. One to show and one two judge if these castings were done by the same company.          The Lindsay line of HO and his famous motors was started by J Robert Lindsay (better known as Bob Lindsay who designed engines and motors for Gordon Varney before he left to start his own company)           This is the Lindsay 1000 HP switcher.  The address was    Lindsay Products Inc.    8207 Stewart Ave.    Los Angeles 45 Calif.     Lindsay made a number of engines including a PA, FA and 0-4-0 'Little Stubby". I don't intend to send these as Lindsay was a little more known vintage HO. (Anyone wanting information, pictures or paperwork on them I can provide from my collection). The main reasons I chose this. It's the only cast brass/bronze engine Lindsay made and  mint in kit form with original box and paperwork. . All the other Lindsay engines are a cast metal.   Second the quality of the castings which are very similar in quality and metal used. I'm not a metallurgist and it doesn't state exactly what so I just use brass/bronze to distinguish from cast metal (zamac,lead and others).             t The cast pieces are excellent in detail having many features of the Lawrence GP-7 castings. this has the T's on the handrails standing out like the Lawrence castings to name one.           I am wondering if the same caster did both and if so WHO WAS IT. If you can help let me know.                                                                    Have a good one                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7252	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Ray,   One other thing regarding ebay or any other venue for the sale, the desirability of any given item, the more desirable it is, and the rarer it is, the higher the price will be, regardless if its being sold on ebay, or at a train show or an antique shop........:o)   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7253	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Ray,   Its been my experience with price guide publications that when they give a set of prices for a given item, then everyone thinks what they have is in mint condition, even if its ready to be thrown out...........:o)   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7254	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lindsay 1000 HP Diesel Switcher

Hi Jim,   Might be time to do some maintainance on your computer, including doing a disc cleanup and defragging........:o)   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7255	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Ray,   I have to agree that we ARE beating a dead horse here...   on the other hand..    I have to disagree with this statement whole heatedly..   "This does not take away from this item having a set value (of somewhere around..."   Who sets this "set" value?  I do not believe there is a set value, but more a fluctuating one.. at least if nothing else a SEASONAL one..  My best stuff I try to sell in the fall and winter.. not in the Summer...   I rather place an items value into a range.. NOT a set value..   Sean --- On Sat, 8/30/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 1:29 PM Hi Louis,  Well, at least you're pointing out that there is such a thing as set values for at least some toy and model trains, even if not in H0.  That there is nothing published in H0 as to their values, does not negate the fact that such values do exist, at least as determined in most collectors' set of mind towards how he values them.  For people to say that other trains do in fact have set values (even if bids on them may fluctuate) and to then say that only H0 trains do not, does not make much sense.  Yes, we could use an update on the values that were set some 20 years ago, in addition to those manufacturers which never got reviewed, but I guess we'll have a long wait.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7256	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

My gas example was to show that your economic equivalence of auctions of rare items to a high volume commodity is plainly incorrect and two different worlds.   Chuck K.   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay I never said there was any such inequity in the prices of gasoline, such as you're suggesting in this $4 to $25 per gallon spread.  Nor have I even mentioned anything about any H0 item having inequality in their pricing.  Unless advertised wrong, Varney Yellowstones will always command a higher price.  The same can be said of most pre-War Mantua engines, the Consol probably most consistantly going the highest. If only 10% of your 15,000 Ebay sites each offered a Penn Line Crusader, you can bet that the prices would come down at least to some degree.  But as we know, there were never that many of them made, so they are naturally more in demand.  I don't think I follow your point here though, except to recognize that our H0 collector's market is a situation of supply and demand -- as we're all aware.  This does not take away from this item having a set value (of somewhere around $1200), even though there may be some people willing to spend more.  As I just got done saying -- some people may place a higher personal value on an item than what is established.  You may beat this dead horse further, but as for me, I think its time to bury him.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7257	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Ray and all..   I think train shows and garage sales would have to be the least fair of all venues to purchase trains from. Especially train shows... Train shows by design are private.. You need to pay to get in and see the stuff.. I live in Pittsburgh can not by any stretch of the imagination make it to a show more than an hour or two from my home.. so how is it that the fact that an item being offered for sale to someone, say in St. Louis, is fair to me? I have been given no opportunity to purchase it!  For a higher price or not..  Putting an item out on the open market..even it were say on Craig's List.. it is still more fair to everyone then some private viewing show or local advertised garage sale..regardless of the selling price.   But this is what great about living in the US today.. we have these options..   On a side... Frankly.. I believe that the actual value of a Penn Line Crusader to be $1,200 on the LOWER end. This would be for a restored engine or an incomplete or damaged engine.. I think $1,350 - $1,400 would be closer to the current value.. and if it has a box.. even more. Which in my opinion is the current value is the only value that matters...(opinions are just like..*******s.  everyone has one... )   I do think though.. we have pretty much beaten this dead horse a bit too long...   Sean --- On Sat, 8/30/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 1:44 PM Hi Gary,  I think you just brought up the key words -- ON EBAY !!!  I would probably have to go along with this, as how else can anyone win an item except to pay the winning (highest) price.  This does not reflect what an item may be worth, but merely what the highest bidder is willing to pay for an item.  On the open market, the same item may not be priced nearly as high.  But then as I said, to each his own.  If someone prefers to constantly pay the highest price over everyone else (and how else can you win the bid), than that's their prerogative -- but has nothing to do with the actual value of the item -- only what that person values it at, and possibly the followers on Ebay who bid nearly the same.  The Ebay (auction) world and the established market (as on lists or in train meets, etc.) having set prices are entirely two different things.  This is borne out in the set valuations of what other scales set their models at, as Louis reminded us of.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7258	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Quite true, Gary -- that's always an obvious given, although you'll usually find people paying higher for it on Ebay, since they have direct monetary competition.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7259	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Charlie: Those old Train-Miniature (of Illinois, I think) were eventually acquired by the gang at Walthers. They re-emerged in the late 80s to mid-90s under their "Train Line" line of HO trains, now also discontinued since Walthers has acquired Life Like.... When Walters acquired Train-Miniature, they issued them as RTR freight cars, and the quality was quite a bit better than the orignal TM kit line. All in all, these were still goodbasic cars, not the super detailed over priced models we have today. The only "probelm" with the Walthers cars were that the selection and model types were extremely limited. Dave F ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7260	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Gary, Its always been like that, and not only on Ebay -- that's nothing new.  Whenever a value/price is announced for something, especially a higher price than a holder of the item might expect (and it doesn't have to be rare), these people think they immediately struck gold.  A check of the condition by the buyer is needed to straighten these instant millionaires out, pointing out that the value is subject upon that.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7261	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Sean,  I'll try to make this fast, so as not to awaken this horse.  As you have been made aware (and as I have also been reminded), the other scales have periodically published guides, with include the values of items.  The Toy Train Collectors are an excellent example.  Some (many) of us established such value guides for those manufacturers which were published by Greenberg Publishing Company in the late '80's, authored by J. David Spangel (Varney Guide), Dallas Mallerich (Athearn Guide) and George Horan (Lionel HO Guide).  There were about 3 dozen of us, on the Varney book for example, all getting together through phone calls and mail, over a good period of time (and after much work), in coming to agreements in establishing the values of each and every item.  Believe me, this took time and work, but we were not about to do a slip-shod job.  Much compromising and proof reading went into these books until we ALL pretty much agreed on this info.  There was so much more that when into these books than is immediately obvious by the reader.  These publications of course are now far outdated in that (value) department, but you asked who sets these values.  Since we all already had decades of experience in what all these items were selling for over the period of many years, collectively we may have had over 700 years of experience between us all that went into the book, if you figure each guy had at least 20 years in collecting.  If you care to dispute this information, your certainly welcome to do so, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find guys who had more experience and knowledge of vintage H0.  This is all immaterial at this time, with everything we did now out of date, but that's how values were established at that time at least for those pieces. Yes, indeed -- the values will of course fluctuate, with the season having something (but not everything) to do with it.  Just because you can't easily sell an item that easily in the Summer for your asking price (real value), does not necessarily mean that the item is not worth that certain price.  Its just that you may not get that price in the Summer only because there is far less activity in the Summer for this indoor activity.  This was seen in earlier years by the lack of shows (swap & sells) during the Summer, as to hold a show meant you'd be standing around doing nothing if you were a vendor and having to drop your prices if you wanted to sell something.  The proof that the item retained it value was in displaying it at a show only a few months later. I guess I couldn't make this short, but for now, as for any item having a "SET" value, please note that I tried to take every opportunity to say "approximate."  Yes, there was always a range.  Some of this was due to condition while some was due to supply and demand, but naturally in general, the scarcer the item the more its going to bring.  This range too, is seen in the various Greenberg Guides I mentioned.  If you're not familiar with them, I'd recommend them as good reading if only for the other information (besides values), especially if you collect any of those manufacturers.  While they may not be the definitive books on the subjects, they still do contain loads of information, albeit even with a few errors and omissions we let through.  Literally hundreds of combined hours went into them.  I may have spent 30 or 40 hours just photographing stuff, even though there was room for only a certain amount.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7262	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Sean, I won't go any further into this, only to say there are pro's & con's to EACH method (I have already said that -- should not have needed to repeat myself).  With Ebay, you obviously are exposed to a nation-wide (world-wide?) market, if you care to pay the price -- that's your decision to make.  The shows I am referring to should have been obvious as local shows -- or those shows that are within the reach that you make them to be.  Unless you're a jet-setter, yes, this rules out Los Angeles, Seattle, Denver and Chicago (and point in between).  Looking at it from the other end, I doubt if Don would want to (or could) attend a show in Pittsburg so he's at just as much disadvantage -- and you have the advantage over him, yeah, I guess that's unfair..  If you do think its unfair though, that shows are scheduled in other cities, start booking flights!   This is to advise you that I'm no longer adding to this thread.  Regards,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7263	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Thanks Ray,   It is nice hearing a different point of view.   Sean --- On Sat, 8/30/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 5:11 PM Sean, I won't go any further into this, only to say there are pro's & con's to EACH method (I have already said that -- should not have needed to repeat myself).  With Ebay, you obviously are exposed to a nation-wide (world-wide? ) market, if you care to pay the price -- that's your decision to make.  The shows I am referring to should have been obvious as local shows -- or those shows that are within the reach that you make them to be.  Unless you're a jet-setter, yes, this rules out Los Angeles, Seattle, Denver and Chicago (and point in between).  Looking at it from the other end, I doubt if Don would want to (or could) attend a show in Pittsburg so he's at just as much disadvantage -- and you have the advantage over him, yeah, I guess that's unfair..  If you do think its unfair though, that shows are scheduled in other cities, start booking flights!   This is to advise you that I'm no longer adding to this thread.  Regards,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7264	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Hi Dave,   In the mid 1980s, Walthers was releasing all the old TMofI kits, in kit form, TMofI had some of the nicest kits on the market at one time, as well as some of the most well detailed kits, when Wathers re released them, they included the sprung trucks, but instead of including Kadee couplers at their exagerated price structure, they simply threw in a pair of horn hooks!!!!!!!:o)   Gary W     ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 4:02:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Charlie: Those old Train-Miniature (of Illinois, I think) were eventually acquired by the gang at Walthers. They re-emerged in the late 80s to mid-90s under their "Train Line" line of HO trains, now also discontinued since Walthers has acquired Life Like.... When Walters acquired Train-Miniature, they issued them as RTR freight cars, and the quality was quite a bit better than the orignal TM kit line. All in all, these were still goodbasic cars, not the super detailed over priced models we have today. The only "probelm" with the Walthers cars were that the selection and model types were extremely limited. Dave F ************ ** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information .travel.aol. com/deals? ncid=aoltrv00050 000000047)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7265	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Ray,   That competition is there in any auction setting, not just ebay, as I have seen folks go nutz at train shows as well........:o)   Gary W     ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 3:56:55 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Quite true, Gary -- that's always an obvious given, although you'll usually find people paying higher for it on Ebay, since they have direct monetary competition.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7266	From: WK2SHR@aol.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Hi Gary: Yep, I know. Don't have too many of those old TMI kits left these days, but I do remember them when they first came out. As I recall, thee were more or less an alternative to the less expensive, been-around-forever Athearn freight car kits, and the more expensive Kar-Line kits, both lines of which featured contemporary 40 and 50 ft cars. (MDC/Roundhouse did too, but even in those days, their products were hard, if not impossible to get). Dave F ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7267	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Hi Dave,   I grew up on a steady diet of MDC kits, I know that Caboose Hobbies as well as Little Town Hobbies in Littleton both had a very good selection.......:o)   Gary W     ----- Original Message ---- From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 7:30:30 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Hi Gary: Yep, I know. Don't have too many of those old TMI kits left these days, but I do remember them when they first came out. As I recall, thee were more or less an alternative to the less expensive, been-around- forever Athearn freight car kits, and the more expensive Kar-Line kits, both lines of which featured contemporary 40 and 50 ft cars. (MDC/Roundhouse did too, but even in those days, their products were hard, if not impossible to get). Dave F ************ ** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information .travel.aol. com/deals? ncid=aoltrv00050 000000047)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7268	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Train Miniatures cars aren’t vintage for me personally, but what I like about them is some of the interesting road names they produced, many which I’ve never seen produced by anyone else—one example a Genesee Beer refrigerator car.  My favorite vintage freightcars were the old Kurtz Kraft line, probably because their undecorated boxcar was the first HO item I put together.                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 8/30/08 1:21 PM, "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...> wrote:   Hi John,         The old Train Miniture line was re-issued by Walthers in the 1980's........:o)         Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7269	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

What I think I said, Ray, is that price guides are good evidence that tangible values do exist as well as relative or subjective values.  I think this backs up what you’ve been saying.  Up-to-date and comprehensive price guides for vintage HO would be of great value to all of us because they would establish a normative price range for items based on rarity and condition.  Many, of course, would still be willing if not eager to pay beyond that range for an item they wanted badly enough.  For me, the big problem is that I don’t see how we can get such price guides since the vintage HO community can’t attract publishers looking to make a profit the way the toy train community can.                                                                                                                                                     Lou On 8/30/08 1:29 PM, "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...> wrote:   Hi Louis,  Well, at least you're pointing out that there is such a thing as set values for at least some toy and model trains, even if not in H0.  That there is nothing published in H0 as to their values, does not negate the fact that such values do exist, at least as determined in most collectors' set of mind towards how he values them.  For people to say that other trains do in fact have set values (even if bids on them may fluctuate) and to then say that only H0 trains do not, does not make much sense.  Yes, we could use an update on the values that were set some 20 years ago, in addition to those manufacturers which never got reviewed, but I guess we'll have a long wait.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7270	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

On my email about Train Miniatures and Kurtz Kraft cars, I meant to say that Kurtz Kraft kits are my favorite PLASTIC vintage freight cars.  I just left off the key word, that’s all.  My excuse?  Turned 70 on August 20.                                                                                                                                         Lou On 8/30/08 8:04 PM, "Louis Greiff" <louie113@...> wrote:   Train Miniatures cars aren’t vintage for me personally, but what I like about them is some of the interesting road names they produced, many which I’ve never seen produced by anyone else—one example a Genesee Beer refrigerator car.  My favorite vintage freightcars were the old Kurtz Kraft line, probably because their undecorated boxcar was the first HO item I put together.                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 8/30/08 1:21 PM, "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...> wrote:   Hi John,         The old Train Miniture line was re-issued by Walthers in the 1980's........:o)         Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7271	From: Bill Wright	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

I think Train Miniature was a product of the 1970s. The 1974 San Diego NMRA convention car was a TM and a local hobby shop, Mini-City, had one available for convention attendees. I think the line was relatively new at the time. Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7272	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:54:19 -0500, Bill Wright wrote: >I think Train Miniature was a product of the 1970s. The 1974 San Diego >NMRA convention car was a TM and a local hobby shop, Mini-City, had one >available for convention attendees. I think the line was relatively new >at the time. Yep. I lived only a few miles from Mini-City at the time and that and the Whistle Stop, were my local hobby shops. I wish I could say that I attended that convention, but I can't; what time I could take off from work I was spending operating on the Pacific Beach & Western at the Del Mar Fairgrounds for the convention tours. (It was fun.) Cheers/2, Jerry - It isn't so good that it couldn't get better; it isn't so bad that it couldn't be worse. - Lyrics from a song written by T. Wolf and F. Landeman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7273	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

One of the first product reviews was in MR, May 1969, page 15. Train Miniature was located in La Mesa, CA at the time. TMI was a later version, then to Walthers. An ad on the same page is for their Car Spoter series. From this I would guess thethe line hab been around a few years already. While these were different cars from what everyone else was producing, very few were prototypically correct. Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7274	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

They actually came out right around 1970, then in the late 70's disappeared, resurfaced again a few years later as "Train Miniature of Illinois" (who I believe was Chuck Alberty <sp?>) who was a Walthers employee. Then in the mid 80's they were offered under the Walthers name, a few are still being made today (The "Trainline" Alco FA/FB is from the original TM dies). Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature I remember buying Train Minatures in the '70s from my local hobby shope (now gone from this life) I thought they were new then not from the sixties. Am I mistaken or was it just released items I was buying?Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 12:52:54 EDT Hi John, While I'm not much of a plastic collector, I do have a number (not a lot) of the Train-Miniature cars, and found them to be fairly well detailed. I know that they're collectable, even if they may not really be considered "vintage" (or are they?), as even 15 years ago when I was in Spanagel's H0 SC&H - SIG, there were collectors of them then. I also like those early Athearn plastic reefers with the moveable metal doors. Ray -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7275	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

----- Original Message ----- From: <WK2SHR@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature > Hi Gary: > > Yep, I know. Don't have too many of those old TMI kits left these days, > but > I do remember them when they first came out. As I recall, thee were more > or less an alternative to the less expensive, been-around-forever Athearn > freight car kits, and the more expensive Kar-Line kits, both lines of > which > featured contemporary 40 and 50 ft cars. (MDC/Roundhouse did too, but > even in those days, their products were hard, if not impossible to get). > > Dave F Kar-Line did not produce their own kits. They were custom paint jobs on Athearn cars. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7276	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/30/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

I'm with you 100% on this, Louis.  Just too bad that some people seem to refuse to recognize that there even are such guides, just not in H0 models at this time.  Updated ones for the segment of the hobby are sorely needed, but like you say the publishers for some reason must feel its not profitable for them.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7277	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lawrence Labs GP-7

As correctly observed, this was a very finely-done locomotive model. that when completed could and would be anybody's pride. It had several fatal problems, however: 1) It was expensive for the time, and as a kit, required large-casting soldering abilities that most potential buyers would not have had; and 2) It was seriously underpowered with only a single Lindsay power truck. Two power trucks could have improved things, however, but if I recall correctly, this was not a market option, and the high additional after-market cost was a deal- breaker. (this latter problem also plagued the Lindsay/Kemtron EMD and Kemtron Alco switchers, lovely as they were.). I do not have one in front of me to confirm, but if memory serves, I also believe that the hoods were also over-wide to accommodate the width of the power truck motor (a problem shared with the Athearn GPs). Another collateral problem: The beautifully-designed Lindsay power trucks were very temperamental, and the helical drive gears were commonly unsuspectingly made up of incompletely cured plastic- which would then commonly split, often sooner than later (only in recent years have quality replacement gears been made available- by NWSL). These trucks were also a real challenge to correctly install in any locomotive not designed to accommodate them- including adding the second motor in the 1000 hp switchers. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7278	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Administrative note:

Donning my moderator's hat for a moment, it hasn't happened here yet to my knowledge, but it has in other groups, I'm sure you've all seen it, BUT, ANYONE posting a link to GROUPLY or using a grouply address will IMMEDIATELY be dropped from the group, no warning (this IS the warning). A word of advice, in other groups NEVER respond to a grouply post or click on the grouply link. It is a NOTORIOUS harvester of email addresses for spam, and has even been known to "hijack" entire yahoo groups for spamming. Don Listowner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7279	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Administrative note:

Never heard of GROUPLY  ?? Thanks Don.   Sean --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Administrative note: To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:05 AM Donning my moderator's hat for a moment, it hasn't happened here yet to my knowledge, but it has in other groups, I'm sure you've all seen it, BUT, ANYONE posting a link to GROUPLY or using a grouply address will IMMEDIATELY be dropped from the group, no warning (this IS the warning). A word of advice, in other groups NEVER respond to a grouply post or click on the grouply link. It is a NOTORIOUS harvester of email addresses for spam, and has even been known to "hijack" entire yahoo groups for spamming. Don Listowner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7280	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: New One Japan

Attachments : Hi Gerold,          Going to talk today about New One items made in Japan. This will only deal with cast zamac steam items. Have included a picture of one of the engines. I have 16 completely different types of engines they made. They also used many different road names on many of the engines. I don't know them all.           I don't intend to send pictures of all of them all unless people want them. The item I have pictured is one of  3 , what I jokingly call, Double Mint (and not an American chewing gum). As you can see in the one picture the original gel sack for drying moisture is still there along with the bell still being in a plastic bag. To my knowledge this engine has never even been picked up out of the box at least not since I have it. These were sold to me mint and I have never "touched them". The box has a plastic window. When this and others like it got to the hobby store there was a cardboard on top of the model that the dealer took out for viewing.          Now for the facts. New One,Japan was the name of the company making this line of models.  They were mainly sold in the US by two companies. One was Polk's Hobby of New York under the Aristo Craft name. These items were sold in boxes stating Distinctive Miniatures/ Pioneer HO Series. (They were Distinctive as some were odd designs like the 4-2-2 bicycle pictured). The other company selling these was HOTCO (HO Train Co) which was a trade name used by GHC (General Hobbies Corporation ) of Philadelphia which was the forerunner of AHM and IHC.          It gets a little tricky as to who sold what. Polk's sold the most different types. I know of 3 types sold by HOTCO but have seen 2 of the types sold by both. To list these facts will be confusing (especially to me).          All 16 engines originally had little stickers on them instead of decals. Someone else had mentioned they were susceptible to cracking (my word is Zinc pest). For some reason even though made by the same company items sold by GHC were cracked and disintegrating more. Another bad feature is that over time the magnets in the motors lost their power and in general were not the best running to start with.        These engines were made between the years 1957-1963 depending on which type. I have a catalog that shows a drawing of one engine I don't think was ever produced called a Mason Bogie. Shows how even catalogs can be wrong. However there is always the possibility some where made although none seen and reported. IF you do find one lock it up in safe keeping ,you have a real treasure.          I'm sure I'm missing some pertinent facts about these engines but will end for now.                                                                                                                Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7281	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Administrative note:

Thanks Don, It was there in my Junk Mailbox this morning.  Deleted it then. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 9:06 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Administrative note:   Donning my moderator's hat for a moment, it hasn't happened here yet to my knowledge, but it has in other groups, I'm sure you've all seen it, BUT, ANYONE posting a link to GROUPLY or using a grouply address will IMMEDIATELY be dropped from the group, no warning (this IS the warning). A word of advice, in other groups NEVER respond to a grouply post or click on the grouply link. It is a NOTORIOUS harvester of email addresses for spam, and has even been known to "hijack" entire yahoo groups for spamming. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7282	From: jay matz	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

I think 1970 is when they started. 6 styles of box car 2 styles of reefers A one a month series in box and reefer.special paint and lettering a very nice series. the state series in 1976. In the late 70s they were bought by someone in Indiana. and in the 80s by walthers, some still made. About 20 years ago we made TM box and reefers our standard freight cars. Jay see the RR at  http://www.dlw-model-rr.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7283	From: john huffman	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Administrative note:

Thank You Very Much For The Information,And Being A Good Moderator, John --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Administrative note: To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:05 AM Donning my moderator's hat for a moment, it hasn't happened here yet to my knowledge, but it has in other groups, I'm sure you've all seen it, BUT, ANYONE posting a link to GROUPLY or using a grouply address will IMMEDIATELY be dropped from the group, no warning (this IS the warning). A word of advice, in other groups NEVER respond to a grouply post or click on the grouply link. It is a NOTORIOUS harvester of email addresses for spam, and has even been known to "hijack" entire yahoo groups for spamming. Don Listowner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7284	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Just as a side note, if you're in doubt as the provenance of a train-miniature car, the original TM's from California had the underbody and frame molded in BLACK plastic. TMI (which I suspect had Walthers money behind it) and Walthers issues had those parts molded in BROWN plastic. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "jay matz" <dlw455@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature I think 1970 is when they started. 6 styles of box car 2 styles of reefers A one a month series in box and reefer.special paint and lettering a very nice series. the state series in 1976. In the late 70s they were bought by someone in Indiana. and in the 80s by walthers, some still made. About 20 years ago we made TM box and reefers our standard freight cars. Jay see the RR at http://www.dlw-model-rr.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7285	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Lawrence Labs GP-7

Hi Denny,                  Thanks for your comments. Points well taken. My thoughts on them.           I'm only a vintage collector but I think as far as the over wide hood.    Don't know what it measures nor do I know the real one. I think it's a minor "flaw" that will hardly be noticed unless you want every thing 100%. I'm sure today's items have leeway in them for whatever (modification,adaptation,etc).          I can't disagree on some Lindsay power truck having a problem which you stated. I have about 20 Lindsay power trucks and have no problem so far but then they are not run constantly. As for the need for two in the Lawrence GP-7 , I have one assembled and had been run on my old layout. While I didn't try to break a world record for pulling cars ,I had moderate loads (10 to 15 cars) pulling up some grades and having no problems over an extended period of time.  My personal observation.           The need for a heavy soldering unit, I don't know if resistance units were available at the time,  could be overcome with epoxies or Walthers GOO as far as the ends.. Have no experience or problem with the side frames.            Definitely can't argue the price was high for that time. Everything you state is "food for thought". My experiences a little different. Very much appreciate your comments.                                                                                           Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 8:50 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fw: Lawrence Labs GP-7 As correctly observed, this was a very finely-done locomotive model. that when completed could and would be anybody's pride. It had several fatal problems, however: 1) It was expensive for the time, and as a kit, required large-casting soldering abilities that most potential buyers would not have had; and 2) It was seriously underpowered with only a single Lindsay power truck. Two power trucks could have improved things, however, but if I recall correctly, this was not a market option, and the high additional after-market cost was a deal- breaker. (this latter problem also plagued the Lindsay/Kemtron EMD and Kemtron Alco switchers, lovely as they were.). I do not have one in front of me to confirm, but if memory serves, I also believe that the hoods were also over-wide to accommodate the width of the power truck motor (a problem shared with the Athearn GPs). Another collateral problem: The beautifully- designed Lindsay power trucks were very temperamental, and the helical drive gears were commonly unsuspectingly made up of incompletely cured plastic- which would then commonly split, often sooner than later (only in recent years have quality replacement gears been made available- by NWSL). These trucks were also a real challenge to correctly install in any locomotive not designed to accommodate them- including adding the second motor in the 1000 hp switchers. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7286	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Jim , Great topic: I have collected cast Aristo Craft locos intensively some years ago. I know of the following types: 0-4-0 CB&Q Switcher 0-6-0 NYC Switcher ( USRA?) 0-6-0 Uncle Tom ( allegedly the ATSF 2-8-0 that operated on Raton Pass was the prototype for it) 2-6-0 Thomas Rogers 4-4-0 Texas - not sure, is she a hybrid cast brass model or completely brass? Then, I have a picture on file that shows a Turn of the Century 4-4-0 - seller said its an Aristo, but might have been brass? AC&I 0-8-0 Switcher Baldwin Columbia 2-4-2 NH 4-4-2 NH 2-8-0 P&R 4-2-2 Bicycle B&O 0-4-0 Teakettle Frisco 2-8-2 B&O 4-8-2, USRA type B&O 4-6-0 Royal Blue CNJ 4-6-0 labeled Economy Series CNJ 4-6-0 Camelback - shares mechanism with standard 4-6-0 above. This makes fifteen, not counting the Texas, the Turn of the Century 4-4-0 which *might* be brass, not cast, and ignoring the Mason Bogie - I also feel she was only advertised but never produced. Does this match your files? I have both a Aristo, and a GHC / AHM Camelback . One is falling apart, the other in somewhat better condition ... but as I got both from the same seller I cant tell which one is the good one, and which the bad. Which were the other two locos available from GHC/ AHM ? guess the 4-6-0 and the 0-6-0 switcher? - I also noticed that both my 4-4-2 and others I saw had the zink pest . Most other types seem to be immune against this disease, only the frame of my Uncle Tom was slightly bent.. thought I could straighten it ... guess what happened. More later, I would also be interested in the brass models Aristo/ Polk sold. My knowledge about those is only fragmentary. Gerold > Going to talk today about New One items made in Japan. This > will only deal with cast zamac steam items. Have included a picture of > one of the engines. I have 16 completely different types of engines > they made. They also used many different road names on many of the > engines. I don't know them all. > I don't intend to send pictures of all of them all unless > people want them. The item I have pictured is one of 3 , what I > jokingly call, Double Mint (and not an American chewing gum). As you > can see in the one picture the original gel sack for drying moisture > is still there along with the bell still being in a plastic bag. To my > knowledge this engine has never even been picked up out of the box at > least not since I have it. These were sold to me mint and I have never > "touched them". The box has a plastic window. When this and others > like it got to the hobby store there was a cardboard on top of the > model that the dealer took out for viewing. > Now for the facts. New One,Japan was the name of the company > making this line of models. They were mainly sold in the US by two > companies. One was Polk's Hobby of New York under the Aristo Craft > name. These items were sold in boxes stating Distinctive Miniatures/ > Pioneer HO Series. (They were Distinctive as some were odd designs > like the 4-2-2 bicycle pictured). The other company selling these was > HOTCO (HO Train Co) which was a trade name used by GHC (General > Hobbies Corporation ) of Philadelphia which was the forerunner of AHM > and IHC. > It gets a little tricky as to who sold what. Polk's sold the > most different types. I know of 3 types sold by HOTCO but have seen 2 > of the types sold by both. To list these facts will be confusing > (especially to me). > All 16 engines originally had little stickers on them instead > of decals. Someone else had mentioned they were susceptible to > cracking (my word is Zinc pest). For some reason even though made by > the same company items sold by GHC were cracked and disintegrating > more. Another bad feature is that over time the magnets in the motors > lost their power and in general were not the best running to start with. > These engines were made between the years 1957-1963 depending > on which type. I have a catalog that shows a drawing of one engine I > don't think was ever produced called a Mason Bogie. Shows how even > catalogs can be wrong. However there is always the possibility some > where made although none seen and reported. IF you do find one lock it > up in safe keeping ,you have a real treasure. > I'm sure I'm missing some pertinent facts about these engines > but will end for now. > > Jim > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7287	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Can you guess ?

Attachments : Hi Gerold and All,             It seems a little slow today so I thought this might be fun.         Do you or anyone know who FIRST made, or had made, this cast metal PA style tender and was the first to sell it ????   IT IS NOT PENN LINE. While some might know the answer will surprise you.    I will supply the plans and box later today to back up my answer.                                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7288	From: Bill Daley	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's

Jim, and John H.   I have an unfinished FT B chassis and superstructure, instruction sheets, and boxes. Should I run the instructions thru my scanner and send either of you fellows copies (after converting scan to JPGs)?   I screwed up the body on the FT A. But I still have the chassis components. Interestingly, the   nose, roof, and rear are Brass(?) castings. The sides looked like engraver's metal called "Zinc" in the graphic arts.   Had I decent digital camera, I would also take pictures of the E7 A & B units. But they are not pristine units, since I and the previous owner  made modifications.   Willie Ashleaf --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 11:27 AM Hi John,        This will probably start another debate but hope not.  Just a comment. So many different people have interest in different aspects of HO.        I happen to be one who wants to collect vintage HO as they were without changes. That includes how they were made and how they ran. I want "just as was". But I know others have different wants. If you happen to be a more "purist (and I use that word without negativity) great. That is where people who see these wrongs and like to modify to closer resemble the "real" thing along with improving the looks and performance of vintage items. Nothing wrong with that either. Personnel preference.        If I remember the goal of this site is . Collecting vintage HO, improving vintage HO and running vintage HO. Not being well versed in the real thing I would never had know about the trucks being placed wrong. I learned an important fact today. If it wasn't pointed out I would never have known and Thank You for that.        I'm going to close with my philosophy  "To each his own" but share your knowledge.                                                   Have a good one                  Jim         ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:31 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's I see this, like many model FT's does not use the proper truck placement. And from the box top, neither does the "A" unit. I understand we are discussing the history of HO and what was, was. But I do think that while we have a fervent interest in old models and an equally strong desire to own such artifacts, we must also admit to their shortcomings. Elsewise, by what standards can we judge the advances made in the hobby. Or, for that matter, which early model manufacturers produced the better product. After all we are still modelers of prototype railroad equipment. Short and sweet, the good olde days, fascinating as they may be, were not always THAT good. John Hagen ST Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > HI Gerold, > "Met" your friend Russell from Australia. "Talked" with a man from Great Britain. A truly International group. On to the main topic. HO trains > Today I have sent pictures of a DMC FT unit. DMC made a set A&B. I only have the unpowered B unit so far. A friend in California has a powered A unit. He has promised to trade (give maybe) this A unit to me. So far I can't pry it out of him. > The box shows both the E units and the FT's on top. I'm pretty sure these were the only engines DMC produced. (any one else have others) One end of this box says "DMC Freight Diesel B Superstructure and other end has the address. On the long sides Side one has pictures of 4 wheel power unit, 6 wheel gear box and one I never heard of till now BARNEY Power unit. The other long side has a picture of one of their streamlined passenger cars. The words " For those that want the finest" appears also. Tomorrow I will show one of the passenger cars that is a mint kit with original box with plans. > Construction similar to the DMC E units but all parts are an aluminum type material again with embossed sides. I have found no markings inside to say cast by A&S but have to think they would be the caster. The frame underneath is a long piece of brass that the trucks screw onto. There is a block of wood on top of this and the superstructure (body) sets on it. Actually a nice looking item. > Have a good one Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7289	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Group For me Ebay vs Trainlists and meets are a Moot point, soon I will not be able to participate on ebay due to not having a PayPal account(no Credit Card to draw from), and no Train Meets around this part of country so basically I a Screwed!!! Oh Well story of my life. CAW   -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7290	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Hi Gerold,         Only a partial answer to your questions about what New One made. I'm afraid confusion might reign. Again only talking about the cast zamac steam.              First  Nat Polk / Polk's Hobby sold numerous engines under Aristo,   Aristo Craft and even Aristo Rossi names. If you have any of his "Blue Book of Hobbies" (catalog and cyclopedia of Model Railroads) will show most of what I will try to copy concerning different engines he sold under his names.  After I will try to send information from catalogs and my collection of what were cast New One steam engines. That is because New One also made brass engines, at least the New One Japan name was punched into the bottom of the tenders            Polk's Hobby / Aristo Craft sold a lot of brass engines too. One series was called Aristo Craft Crown Jewel Limited Edition Series. I'm not going to get into these except to say  the 4-4-0 Texas you mentioned was brass. The Turn of the Century 4-4-0 is probably brass too. Again these are an entirely different story. We are only going to talk cast steam by New One           I have quickly read over the other engines on your list  Two observations for now. Other changes, additions next time.         Unless I missed seeing it listed you missed the TWO 0-4-0 Camelbacks. I say two because they had differences although the basics were the same.  One had a straight stack and one a flared stack. They each had different style tenders. I have both so I can show you. They both are original and both were sold that way. If I remember right they both were sold under the GHC label but still New One.         Second item. The 2-8-2 Frisco came with two different tenders. One was a shorter style with 4 axle trucks. The other was a longer style with 6 axle trucks. Both original, both were sold. The tenders can be seen in Aristo Craft catalogs or on the side of their boxes. Both styles of tender use the same gold numbers printed on the sides, mainly 4 digit but for some odd reason both tenders come with many different four digit numbers. I at one time actually thought the numbers were a series number that identified the one you bought because of how many numbers you could get, but that is not true. They just happened to change numbers.         So between the two 0-4-0 Camelbacks and the two 2-8-2 with different style tenders (not different numbers) is 4. Enough for today.Will add to that four later. Since my computer room on main floor of my rancher and my collection in our finished basement I'm getting tired running up and down to write this. Trying not to make mistakes or confuse the New One Japan cast steam story.         If you want pictures of each glad to send direct to you. I hesitate to send them through the vintageHO site. Don't know how many would be interested or how much space that would take to put in the album.  Everybody let me know your feelings and then I decide how/what to do. Two pictures a day will help to stop any mistakes I make.                                                                                              Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Jim , Great topic: I have collected cast Aristo Craft locos intensively some years ago. I know of the following types: 0-4-0 CB&Q Switcher 0-6-0 NYC Switcher ( USRA?) 0-6-0 Uncle Tom ( allegedly the ATSF 2-8-0 that operated on Raton Pass was the prototype for it) 2-6-0 Thomas Rogers 4-4-0 Texas - not sure, is she a hybrid cast brass model or completely brass? Then, I have a picture on file that shows a Turn of the Century 4-4-0 - seller said its an Aristo, but might have been brass? AC&I 0-8-0 Switcher Baldwin Columbia 2-4-2 NH 4-4-2 NH 2-8-0 P&R 4-2-2 Bicycle B&O 0-4-0 Teakettle Frisco 2-8-2 B&O 4-8-2, USRA type B&O 4-6-0 Royal Blue CNJ 4-6-0 labeled Economy Series CNJ 4-6-0 Camelback - shares mechanism with standard 4-6-0 above. This makes fifteen, not counting the Texas, the Turn of the Century 4-4-0 which *might* be brass, not cast, and ignoring the Mason Bogie - I also feel she was only advertised but never produced. Does this match your files? I have both a Aristo, and a GHC / AHM Camelback . One is falling apart, the other in somewhat better condition ... but as I got both from the same seller I cant tell which one is the good one, and which the bad. Which were the other two locos available from GHC/ AHM ? guess the 4-6-0 and the 0-6-0 switcher? - I also noticed that both my 4-4-2 and others I saw had the zink pest . Most other types seem to be immune against this disease, only the frame of my Uncle Tom was slightly bent.. thought I could straighten it ... guess what happened. More later, I would also be interested in the brass models Aristo/ Polk sold. My knowledge about those is only fragmentary. Gerold > Going to talk today about New One items made in Japan. This > will only deal with cast zamac steam items. Have included a picture of > one of the engines. I have 16 completely different types of engines > they made. They also used many different road names on many of the > engines. I don't know them all. > I don't intend to send pictures of all of them all unless > people want them. The item I have pictured is one of 3 , what I > jokingly call, Double Mint (and not an American chewing gum). As you > can see in the one picture the original gel sack for drying moisture > is still there along with the bell still being in a plastic bag. To my > knowledge this engine has never even been picked up out of the box at > least not since I have it. These were sold to me mint and I have never > "touched them". The box has a plastic window. When this and others > like it got to the hobby store there was a cardboard on top of the > model that the dealer took out for viewing. > Now for the facts. New One,Japan was the name of the company > making this line of models. They were mainly sold in the US by two > companies. One was Polk's Hobby of New York under the Aristo Craft > name. These items were sold in boxes stating Distinctive Miniatures/ > Pioneer HO Series. (They were Distinctive as some were odd designs > like the 4-2-2 bicycle pictured). The other company selling these was > HOTCO (HO Train Co) which was a trade name used by GHC (General > Hobbies Corporation ) of Philadelphia which was the forerunner of AHM > and IHC. > It gets a little tricky as to who sold what. Polk's sold the > most different types. I know of 3 types sold by HOTCO but have seen 2 > of the types sold by both. To list these facts will be confusing > (especially to me). > All 16 engines originally had little stickers on them instead > of decals. Someone else had mentioned they were susceptible to > cracking (my word is Zinc pest). For some reason even though made by > the same company items sold by GHC were cracked and disintegrating > more. Another bad feature is that over time the magnets in the motors > lost their power and in general were not the best running to start with. > These engines were made between the years 1957-1963 depending > on which type. I have a catalog that shows a drawing of one engine I > don't think was ever produced called a Mason Bogie. Shows how even > catalogs can be wrong. However there is always the possibility some > where made although none seen and reported. IF you do find one lock it > up in safe keeping ,you have a real treasure. > I'm sure I'm missing some pertinent facts about these engines > but will end for now. > > Jim > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7291	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Dave F I believe I have a couple of the cases left to let you know how mine came to me they were in light tan bottoms with clear top cases ans usually have a seperation wall down the middle to keep parts away from each other does this let any light shine on the date of the ones I have? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 16:02:22 EDT Charlie: Those old Train-Miniature (of Illinois, I think) were eventually acquired by the gang at Walthers. They re-emerged in the late 80s to mid-90s under their "Train Line" line of HO trains, now also discontinued since Walthers has acquired Life Like.... When Walters acquired Train-Miniature, they issued them as RTR freight cars, and the quality was quite a bit better than the orignal TM kit line. All in all, these were still goodbasic cars, not the super detailed over priced models we have today. The only "probelm" with the Walthers cars were that the selection and model types were extremely limited. Dave F ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7292	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Dave F The Hobby Shop in Mount Carmel IL (Daves Train Shop) always had a great supply of Train Miniatures and also MDC/Roundhouse cars on hand I bought anything with New York Central on it or if it went on sale, or if somebody got out of hobby I would try to grab it, which is the reason I have a lot of Garbage at home people tried to kit bash. I do still have  a couple of mint Southern Cabosee at home thea were custom made as X s. AHH the good old days. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: WK2SHR@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 19:30:30 EDT Hi Gary: Yep, I know. Don't have too many of those old TMI kits left these days, but I do remember them when they first came out. As I recall, thee were more or less an alternative to the less expensive, been-around-forever Athearn freight car kits, and the more expensive Kar-Line kits, both lines of which featured contemporary 40 and 50 ft cars. (MDC/Roundhouse did too, but even in those days, their products were hard, if not impossible to get). Dave F ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7293	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Louis WOW!  I hope I make to 70 and still give a C*** about something except if I am going to get another meal. CAW  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Greiff" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 20:24:38 -0400 On my email about Train Miniatures and Kurtz Kraft cars, I meant to say that Kurtz Kraft kits are my favorite PLASTIC vintage freight cars.  I just left off the key word, that’s all.  My excuse?  Turned 70 on August 20.                                                                                                                                         Lou On 8/30/08 8:04 PM, "Louis Greiff" <louie113@...> wrote:   Train Miniatures cars aren’t vintage for me personally, but what I like about them is some of the interesting road names they produced, many which I’ve never seen produced by anyone else—one example a Genesee Beer refrigerator car.  My favorite vintage freightcars were the old Kurtz Kraft line, probably because their undecorated boxcar was the first HO item I put together.                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 8/30/08 1:21 PM, "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...> wrote:   Hi John,         The old Train Miniture line was re-issued by Walthers in the 1980's........:o)         Gary W                            -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7294	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Gerold, Jim,  Nice collections guys.  I'm also heavy into Aristo Craft H0 too and have many of the ones already mention.  Also have a few others, like: 0-6-0 Side Tank Switcher, ERIE # 2 0-4-0 Side Tank Switcher, C.R.R. of NJ # 8 0-6-0 Saddle Tank Switcher, PRR # 125 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler (more "modern" than B&O Royal Blue # 1470) -- IC # 95; "Casey Jones" style, similar to Varney's 4-4-2 Atlantic, SP (different than B&O # 157) -- exact replica of Southern Pacific 4-8-2 USRA Mountain Chesapeake & Ohio # 133 I found that their Mother Hubbard's (Camelback's) were by far the worst with zinc rot.  I liked their metal structures, signals and various era lamp posts, and have a number of them.  I believe it may have been Don asking about them some time back so there should be something in the archives about them.  They also made several cars, which included the President Abraham Lincoln Funeral Car, a Wedge Snow Plow and a GN Rotary Snow plow -- with rotating blades  -- really great to see operate.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7295	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Administrative note:

Don I don't know how it is done but in my Group I was attacked by many of them from people who had been it the group for several years, I had to go through and delete all of them and also cancell the perps. from the Group, also had to do like you, they had to apply for membership, helped greatly. CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Administrative note: > Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 13:05:39 -0000 > > > Donning my moderator's hat for a moment, it hasn't happened here yet to > my knowledge, but it has in other groups, I'm sure you've all seen it, > BUT, > > ANYONE posting a link to GROUPLY or using a grouply address will > IMMEDIATELY be dropped from the group, no warning (this IS the warning). > > A word of advice, in other groups NEVER respond to a grouply post or > click on the grouply link. It is a NOTORIOUS harvester of email > addresses for spam, and has even been known to "hijack" entire yahoo > groups for spamming. > > Don > > Listowner > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7296	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Jim One Cool Engine Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] New One Japan Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:07:52 -0400 Hi Gerold,          Going to talk today about New One items made in Japan. This will only deal with cast zamac steam items. Have included a picture of one of the engines. I have 16 completely different types of engines they made. They also used many different road names on many of the engines. I don't know them all.           I don't intend to send pictures of all of them all unless people want them. The item I have pictured is one of  3 , what I jokingly call, Double Mint (and not an American chewing gum). As you can see in the one picture the original gel sack for drying moisture is still there along with the bell still being in a plastic bag. To my knowledge this engine has never even been picked up out of the box at least not since I have it. These were sold to me mint and I have never "touched them". The box has a plastic window. When this and others like it got to the hobby store there was a cardboard on top of the model that the dealer took out for viewing.          Now for the facts. New One,Japan was the name of the company making this line of models.  They were mainly sold in the US by two companies. One was Polk's Hobby of New York under the Aristo Craft name. These items were sold in boxes stating Distinctive Miniatures/ Pioneer HO Series. (They were Distinctive as some were odd designs like the 4-2-2 bicycle pictured). The other company selling these was HOTCO (HO Train Co) which was a trade name used by GHC (General Hobbies Corporation ) of Philadelphia which was the forerunner of AHM and IHC.          It gets a little tricky as to who sold what. Polk's sold the most different types. I know of 3 types sold by HOTCO but have seen 2 of the types sold by both. To list these facts will be confusing (especially to me).          All 16 engines originally had little stickers on them instead of decals. Someone else had mentioned they were susceptible to cracking (my word is Zinc pest). For some reason even though made by the same company items sold by GHC were cracked and disintegrating more. Another bad feature is that over time the magnets in the motors lost their power and in general were not the best running to start with.        These engines were made between the years 1957-1963 depending on which type. I have a catalog that shows a drawing of one engine I don't think was ever produced called a Mason Bogie. Shows how even catalogs can be wrong. However there is always the possibility some where made although none seen and reported. IF you do find one lock it up in safe keeping ,you have a real treasure.          I'm sure I'm missing some pertinent facts about these engines but will end for now.                                                                                                                Jim << IMG_2131_1.JPG >> << IMG_2133_2.JPG >> -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7297	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

ALL RIGHT ALL OF MINE HAVE BLACK UNDER FRAMES YOO HOO! CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature > Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:41:24 -0500 > > > Just as a side note, if you're in doubt as the provenance of a > train-miniature car, the original TM's from California had the underbody and > frame molded in BLACK plastic. TMI (which I suspect had Walthers money > behind it) and Walthers issues had those parts molded in BROWN plastic. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jay matz" <dlw455@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 9:05 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature > > > I think 1970 is when they started. > 6 styles of box car > 2 styles of reefers > A one a month series in box and reefer.special paint and lettering a very > nice series. > the state series in 1976. In the late 70s they were bought by someone in > Indiana. > and in the 80s by walthers, some still made. > About 20 years ago we made TM box and reefers our standard freight cars. > Jay > see the RR at http://www.dlw-model-rr.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7298	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Charles, Why not open a paypal account?????:o)   Gary W     ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:22:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Group For me Ebay vs Trainlists and meets are a Moot point, soon I will not be able to participate on ebay due to not having a PayPal account(no Credit Card to draw from), and no Train Meets around this part of country so basically I a Screwed!!! Oh Well story of my life. CAW   -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7299	From: Charles Windes	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Gary Actually have two Pay Pal accounts I can not get into either one for the passwords will not be accepted, and I know I am using the correct passwords, jsut will not work, I keep trying though ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Hi Charles, Why not open a paypal account?????:o)   Gary W     ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:22:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Group For me Ebay vs Trainlists and meets are a Moot point, soon I will not be able to participate on ebay due to not having a PayPal account(no Credit Card to draw from), and no Train Meets around this part of country so basically I a Screwed!!! Oh Well story of my life. CAW   -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today. -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7300	From: sean naylor	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Paypals # 888 221 1161 They might be able to help & the wait is never very long. Sean ---------- Sent from the Cingular network using Mobile Email ------Original Message------ From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sun, Aug 31, 2008 02:05 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay GaryActually have two Pay Pal accounts I can not get into either one for the passwords will not be accepted, and I know I am using the correct passwords, jsut will not work, I keep trying though ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Hi Charles,Why not open a paypal account?????:o) Gary W ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:22:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay GroupFor me Ebay vs Trainlists and meets are a Moot point, soon I will not be able to participate on ebay due to not having a PayPal account(no Credit Card to draw from), and no Train Meets around this part of country so basically I a Screwed!!! Oh Well story of my life.CAW -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today. -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7301	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Charles,   Then you need to contact paypal and find out what the situation is, it might just be something very simple, (it usually is), don't let Murphy's law get the best of ya here............:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 3:05:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Gary Actually have two Pay Pal accounts I can not get into either one for the passwords will not be accepted, and I know I am using the correct passwords, jsut will not work, I keep trying though ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Hi Charles, Why not open a paypal account????? :o)   Gary W     ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@mindless. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:22:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Group For me Ebay vs Trainlists and meets are a Moot point, soon I will not be able to participate on ebay due to not having a PayPal account(no Credit Card to draw from), and no Train Meets around this part of country so basically I a Screwed!!! Oh Well story of my life. CAW   -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today. -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7302	From: Louis Greiff	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

I hope you do too, Charles.                         Lou On 8/31/08 2:40 PM, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote:   Louis WOW!  I hope I make to 70 and still give a C*** about something except if I am going to get another meal. CAW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Greiff" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train-Miniature Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 20:24:38 -0400 On my email about Train Miniatures and Kurtz Kraft cars, I meant to say that Kurtz Kraft kits are my favorite PLASTIC vintage freight cars.  I just left off the key word, that’s all.  My excuse?  Turned 70 on August 20.                                                                                                                                         Lou On 8/30/08 8:04 PM, "Louis Greiff" <louie113@...> wrote:   Train Miniatures cars aren’t vintage for me personally, but what I like about them is some of the interesting road names they produced, many which I’ve never seen produced by anyone else—one example a Genesee Beer refrigerator car.  My favorite vintage freightcars were the old Kurtz Kraft line, probably because their undecorated boxcar was the first HO item I put together.                                                                                                                                             Lou Greiff On 8/30/08 1:21 PM, "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...> wrote:   Hi John,         The old Train Miniture line was re-issued by Walthers in the 1980's........:o)         Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7303	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Attachments : erieberk@... wrote: > Gerold, Jim, Nice collections guys. I'm also heavy into Aristo Craft > H0 too and have many of the ones already mention. Also have a few > others, like: > > 0-6-0 Side Tank Switcher, ERIE # 2 > > 0-4-0 Side Tank Switcher, C.R.R. of NJ # 8 > > 0-6-0 Saddle Tank Switcher, PRR # 125 > > 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler (more "modern" than B&O Royal Blue # 1470) -- IC # > 95; "Casey Jones" style, similar to Varney's > > 4-4-2 Atlantic, SP (different than B&O # 157) -- exact replica of > Southern Pacific > > 4-8-2 USRA Mountain Chesapeake & Ohio # 133 > > I found that their Mother Hubbard's (Camelback's) were by far the > worst with zinc rot. I liked their metal structures, signals and > various era lamp posts, and have a number of them. I believe it may > have been Don asking about them some time back so there should be > something in the archives about them. They also made several cars, > which included the President Abraham Lincoln Funeral Car, a Wedge Snow > Plow and a GN Rotary Snow plow -- with rotating blades -- really > great to see operate. Ray W. > > __. Ray, Jim, I guess the 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 side tankers are the Rivarossi locos shown on the scan I have attached; not sure about the Saddle Tank and the Ten Wheeler - could you supply pictures of those? Rivarossi did a SP Atlantic with enourmous drivers, they show up now and then on eBay; guess thats the one you mention. I think the same mechanism was utilized under the Rivarossi Hiawatha steamer? Re the 4-8-2, I found a typo in my files - the picture that said "B&O 4-8-2" actually shows a C&O loco. Now a question regarding the plastic "Diesel Electric Switcher" in the left column of my scan... I bought one of these two weeks ago, here in Vienna; it has no grabs and handrails like the one from the ad, and another one shown in Lenahans Lexicon. My guess is this was a stripped version from a train set... does anybody know about those, with/ without handrails? Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7304	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Hi Ray,        The New One cast steam engine story is complex to say the least as you know. I can only talk about the engines I have and be sure. An excellent article was written years ago  by a Mr. John Bortle. I have a copy of his original story including his list of the engines. A slightly compacted article appeared in Dec 1995 issue of RMC for anyone having it available. Overall a great piece with good information in an attempt to tackle a tough subject. One of a few of the very small things that changed was on the Frisco tender number. The original number 345 appeared in catalogs and boxes. Down the road it changed to 4 digit gold numbers, Still to read his article is less confusing then me trying to write the story.  (Ray I don't have enough cups of coffee).          The worst for zinc pest that I have heard of or seen is the tender for the 4-4-2 cracking in half , 4-6-0 Camelback CNJ (both the Tender and Engine) and tender side frames on many but that could also be from to delicate and weak.           Ray , don't hold me to this. I'm sitting in front of computer with out the engines in front of me. It concerns the 0-4-0 Side tank switcher #8  CRRof NJ and the 0-6-0  Side tank switcher Erie #2. If we are talking about the same two engines these will have plastic bodies and were made early (1952) by Rivarossi. They were both sold by Polk's Hobby using the Aristo Rossi name (Aristo from Aristo Craft and Rossi from Rivarossi. These are both in Polk's Blue Book. I only have the 0-4-0. Let me know on these.          All the others you have listed sound good to me as far as the type. There was different road names on the same type of engines while some were consistent. Just a way to make it more confusing. As I send if interested I will send pictures of my items which totals 16.  Are there more. I'd be interested to find out. Especially if their is verification. Since this cast,zamac steam engines were already assembled I have NO paperwork,  instructions or assembly sheets                                                 Have a good one             Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Gerold, Jim,  Nice collections guys.  I'm also heavy into Aristo Craft H0 too and have many of the ones already mention.  Also have a few others, like: 0-6-0 Side Tank Switcher, ERIE # 2 0-4-0 Side Tank Switcher, C.R.R. of NJ # 8 0-6-0 Saddle Tank Switcher, PRR # 125 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler (more "modern" than B&O Royal Blue # 1470) -- IC # 95; "Casey Jones" style, similar to Varney's 4-4-2 Atlantic, SP (different than B&O # 157) -- exact replica of Southern Pacific 4-8-2 USRA Mountain Chesapeake & Ohio # 133 I found that their Mother Hubbard's (Camelback's) were by far the worst with zinc rot.  I liked their metal structures, signals and various era lamp posts, and have a number of them.  I believe it may have been Don asking about them some time back so there should be something in the archives about them.  They also made several cars, which included the President Abraham Lincoln Funeral Car, a Wedge Snow Plow and a GN Rotary Snow plow -- with rotating blades  -- really great to see operate.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7305	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Jim , > I have quickly read over the other engines on your list Two > observations for now. Other changes, additions next time. > Unless I missed seeing it listed you missed the TWO 0-4-0 > Camelbacks. I say two because they had differences although the basics > were the same. One had a straight stack and one a flared stack. They > each had different style tenders. I have both so I can show you. They > both are original and both were sold that way. If I remember right > they both were sold under the GHC label but still New One. Sorry, forgot about those... I actually have several in various states of disrepair but I found them so ugly I have stashed them away somewhere under other stuff... > Second item. The 2-8-2 Frisco came with two different tenders. > One was a shorter style with 4 axle trucks. The other was a longer > style with 6 axle trucks. Both original, both were sold. The tenders > can be seen in Aristo Craft catalogs or on the side of their boxes. > Both styles of tender use the same gold numbers printed on the sides, > mainly 4 digit but for some odd reason both tenders come with many > different four digit numbers. I at one time actually thought the > numbers were a series number that identified the one you bought > because of how many numbers you could get, but that is not true. They > just happened to change numbers. Interesting, I never realized they came with two different tenders - thought this was a mix up with tenders of other locos. I have two Mikados, both with four axle trucks- one repainted, the other numbered 4005. A picture I have on file shows the C&O Mountain with an identical tender, but lettered Chesapeake & Ohio - US . The Mountain I have came with an Bowser long haul tender.... and I got badly burned when I bought a "Berkshire" which actually was an Mikado with an Bowser trailing truck. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7306	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

Charlie's note reminds me that I have a whole shelf of those plastic cases - they became half of my storage area (the other half being Athearn blue cardboard boxes) for miscellaneous parts, spare motors, etc. (after chopping out the divider with a pair of "dikes" [large diagonal cutters for those too young to remember]). I suppose I could count them and tell you how many TM cars are on my layout and read the ends and tell you which ones they are. :-) Mike Charles Windes wrote: > > > Dave F > I believe I have a couple of the cases left to let you know how mine > came to me they were in light tan bottoms with clear top cases ans > usually have a seperation wall down the middle to keep parts away from > each other does this let any light shine on the date of the ones I have? > Charlie >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7307	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Tender by who ?

Attachments : Hi All,  Before this gets away from me I'm sending pictures to verify that the picture of a tender that looks like Penn Line was actually first made by John English and PL bought out. I also have a 3 piece set of castings (frame, steam chest and boiler) that became the Penn Line 2-8-0. These also were first made by John English. I have the box and plans for them also.           Just thought that would be interesting.                                                                                     Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7308	From: Rick Jones	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

--- erieberk@... wrote: > Dream on -- anything marketable is relevant to the > marketability of H0 trains > as addressed in this discussion. You don't think > that if it came down to > having to bid on everyday staple items, that the > richer people wouldn't watch out > for themselves rather than go without??? However, that will only happen on items that are rare and not widely available, like the items in which htis group is interested. As long as everyday staples are widely available and there is competition from multiple suppliers of ground beef, cheese crackers and pastries we won't see any such domination of purchases by wealthier people. Your analogy is only appropriate to scarce items for which the demand exceeds the available supply. Rick Jones

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7309	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Hi Gerold,      I have become overwhelmed with Emails and request AND THAT"S A GOOD THING. I just like to answer everyone who contacts me. I guess it would be a good to show you my two Mikado's with different tenders for a start. That way we can count them up as we go. I'll start tomorrow.         To reply to your Email showing the page from the catalog. The ones on the left are Rivarossi sold by Polk's as Aristo Rossi. I want to  respond to your question about that big Wheeled 4-4-2 (I have an original). It was early Rivarossi (1952) and yes it was the same except for the body that was used on the Hiawatha Streamlined 4-4-2 (and different tender). I'll throw in another fact in here to add to any confusion and Ray will know this one. Lionel first contracted with Rivarossi to sell some of their products marked Lionel which they did. Lionel was supposed to sell the Rivarossi 4-4-2 Streamlined Hiawatha but never did.                               The others to the right are all brass sold by Polk under the Aristo Craft name. None on that page are cast,zamac,steam New One engines.               I've got to take a break. All these facts will soon create Senior Moments. I'll be back. This is interesting                                                                                                                                                          Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Jim , > I have quickly read over the other engines on your list Two > observations for now. Other changes, additions next time. > Unless I missed seeing it listed you missed the TWO 0-4-0 > Camelbacks. I say two because they had differences although the basics > were the same. One had a straight stack and one a flared stack. They > each had different style tenders. I have both so I can show you. They > both are original and both were sold that way. If I remember right > they both were sold under the GHC label but still New One. Sorry, forgot about those... I actually have several in various states of disrepair but I found them so ugly I have stashed them away somewhere under other stuff... > Second item. The 2-8-2 Frisco came with two different tenders. > One was a shorter style with 4 axle trucks. The other was a longer > style with 6 axle trucks. Both original, both were sold. The tenders > can be seen in Aristo Craft catalogs or on the side of their boxes. > Both styles of tender use the same gold numbers printed on the sides, > mainly 4 digit but for some odd reason both tenders come with many > different four digit numbers. I at one time actually thought the > numbers were a series number that identified the one you bought > because of how many numbers you could get, but that is not true. They > just happened to change numbers. Interesting, I never realized they came with two different tenders - thought this was a mix up with tenders of other locos. I have two Mikados, both with four axle trucks- one repainted, the other numbered 4005. A picture I have on file shows the C&O Mountain with an identical tender, but lettered Chesapeake & Ohio - US . The Mountain I have came with an Bowser long haul tender.... and I got badly burned when I bought a "Berkshire" which actually was an Mikado with an Bowser trailing truck. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7310	From: Maynard Keith Franklin	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Lawrence Labs GP-7

Jim & Denny: In the process of resurrecting my 1950's rolling stock, I am trying to relight my Lawrence Line GP-7, which I bought as a kit when they came out. In the famous words of politicians, "I do not recall" having to solder the components together. the entire hood/cab came as one piece, and the frame, complete with cast on railings and attached ends, came as another piece. At least, as I recall. I also do have an American Beauty 100W soldering iron, so it would not have been impossible for me to solder the stuff together, but I sure don't remember doing so. I do not understand why the hood would have needed to be widened, using the Lindsay power trucks. Also, as I recall, my kit came with both trucks powered by the motor on one truck, with a universal shaft between the two. It would be interesting for someone to post the prototype hood width. The overall hood width of my Lawrence Line unit is 6 feet, measured at the cab. Jim is graciously forwarding instruction sheets which I threw away 50 years ago or so, and it will be interesting to see what they say. My biggest problem now is to replace the NMRA coouplers with Kadees, and to solder the bottom of one railing at the corner steps back onto the frame. The paint kinda sucks too, but then, while not weathered, it is "timed". It was painted with either Floquil or 410M, a medium blue color, and covered after decals with semi-gloss varnish. Also, frame was black, but with diagonal stripes (decals) on the sides, and I can't find the same size stripes. Maynard Keith Franklin N91472@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7311	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Can you guess ?

Looks like its for a Bowser K-4

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7312	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Attachments : Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Gerold,      I have become overwhelmed with Emails and request AND THAT"S A GOOD THING. I just like to answer everyone who contacts me. I guess it would be a good to show you my two Mikado's with different tenders for a start. That way we can count them up as we go. I'll start tomorrow.         To reply to your Email showing the page from the catalog. The ones on the left are Rivarossi sold by Polk's as Aristo Rossi. I want to  respond to your question about that big Wheeled 4-4-2 (I have an original). It was early Rivarossi (1952) and yes it was the same except for the body that was used on the Hiawatha Streamlined 4-4-2 (and different tender). I'll throw in another fact in here to add to any confusion and Ray will know this one. Lionel first contracted with Rivarossi to sell some of their products marked Lionel which they did. Lionel was supposed to sell the Rivarossi 4-4-2 Streamlined Hiawatha but never did.                               The others to the right are all brass sold by Polk under the Aristo Craft name. None on that page are cast,zamac,steam New One engines.               I've got to take a break. All these facts will soon create Senior Moments. I'll be back. This is interesting                                                                                              Jim, here comes the ad with the cast locos, at least thirteen of them - missing the second Mikado and both versions 0-4-0 Camelback, and the 4-6-0 Camelback. BTW, the Bicycle was my first Aristo loco, bought it for the equivalent of $100  in the early nineties  here in Vienna.  The weight distribution of this thing is so bad that she barely pulls her own (heavy!) tender - I tinkered with her some time to get as much weight as possible on the driver, finally I made a mold of the tender shell and did a resin copy of it --- could not resist to apply some fancy scrollwork and my private roadname.... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7313	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's

Hi           Sorry I didn't get right back to you. Got very busy. Thanks for the offer on the DMC plans but I do have them. The part about the sides being called "Zinc"  is very interesting along with the engravers metal being used in graphic arts. I never know what to call some of these metals.            Please help me out. My computer shows the message I'm answering as Bill Daley, yet the Email signed Willie Ashleaf.                                              Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Daley To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's Jim, and John H.   I have an unfinished FT B chassis and superstructure, instruction sheets, and boxes. Should I run the instructions thru my scanner and send either of you fellows copies (after converting scan to JPGs)?   I screwed up the body on the FT A. But I still have the chassis components. Interestingly, the   nose, roof, and rear are Brass(?) castings. The sides looked like engraver's metal called "Zinc" in the graphic arts.   Had I decent digital camera, I would also take pictures of the E7 A & B units. But they are not pristine units, since I and the previous owner  made modifications.   Willie Ashleaf --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 11:27 AM Hi John,        This will probably start another debate but hope not.  Just a comment. So many different people have interest in different aspects of HO.        I happen to be one who wants to collect vintage HO as they were without changes. That includes how they were made and how they ran. I want "just as was". But I know others have different wants. If you happen to be a more "purist (and I use that word without negativity) great. That is where people who see these wrongs and like to modify to closer resemble the "real" thing along with improving the looks and performance of vintage items. Nothing wrong with that either. Personnel preference.        If I remember the goal of this site is . Collecting vintage HO, improving vintage HO and running vintage HO. Not being well versed in the real thing I would never had know about the trucks being placed wrong. I learned an important fact today. If it wasn't pointed out I would never have known and Thank You for that.        I'm going to close with my philosophy  "To each his own" but share your knowledge.                                                   Have a good one                  Jim         ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:31 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's I see this, like many model FT's does not use the proper truck placement. And from the box top, neither does the "A" unit. I understand we are discussing the history of HO and what was, was. But I do think that while we have a fervent interest in old models and an equally strong desire to own such artifacts, we must also admit to their shortcomings. Elsewise, by what standards can we judge the advances made in the hobby. Or, for that matter, which early model manufacturers produced the better product. After all we are still modelers of prototype railroad equipment. Short and sweet, the good olde days, fascinating as they may be, were not always THAT good. John Hagen ST Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > HI Gerold, > "Met" your friend Russell from Australia. "Talked" with a man from Great Britain. A truly International group. On to the main topic. HO trains > Today I have sent pictures of a DMC FT unit. DMC made a set A&B. I only have the unpowered B unit so far. A friend in California has a powered A unit. He has promised to trade (give maybe) this A unit to me. So far I can't pry it out of him. > The box shows both the E units and the FT's on top. I'm pretty sure these were the only engines DMC produced. (any one else have others) One end of this box says "DMC Freight Diesel B Superstructure and other end has the address. On the long sides Side one has pictures of 4 wheel power unit, 6 wheel gear box and one I never heard of till now BARNEY Power unit. The other long side has a picture of one of their streamlined passenger cars. The words " For those that want the finest" appears also. Tomorrow I will show one of the passenger cars that is a mint kit with original box with plans. > Construction similar to the DMC E units but all parts are an aluminum type material again with embossed sides. I have found no markings inside to say cast by A&S but have to think they would be the caster. The frame underneath is a long piece of brass that the trucks screw onto. There is a block of wood on top of this and the superstructure (body) sets on it. Actually a nice looking item. > Have a good one Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7314	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Gerold,             That's the right sheet for the Aristo Craft New Ones. Add the second Mikado (short and long tenders) take out the Mason Bogie. Then add these GHC sold from New One. A 4-4-2 Atlantic, the 4-6-0 CNR Camelback, the two styles of  0-4-0 camelbacks with different tenders.                              Did we hit the 16 I have.                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Gerold,      I have become overwhelmed with Emails and request AND THAT"S A GOOD THING. I just like to answer everyone who contacts me. I guess it would be a good to show you my two Mikado's with different tenders for a start. That way we can count them up as we go. I'll start tomorrow.         To reply to your Email showing the page from the catalog. The ones on the left are Rivarossi sold by Polk's as Aristo Rossi. I want to  respond to your question about that big Wheeled 4-4-2 (I have an original). It was early Rivarossi (1952) and yes it was the same except for the body that was used on the Hiawatha Streamlined 4-4-2 (and different tender). I'll throw in another fact in here to add to any confusion and Ray will know this one. Lionel first contracted with Rivarossi to sell some of their products marked Lionel which they did. Lionel was supposed to sell the Rivarossi 4-4-2 Streamlined Hiawatha but never did.                               The others to the right are all brass sold by Polk under the Aristo Craft name. None on that page are cast,zamac,steam New One engines.               I've got to take a break. All these facts will soon create Senior Moments. I'll be back. This is interesting                                                                                            Jim, here comes the ad with the cast locos, at least thirteen of them - missing the second Mikado and both versions 0-4-0 Camelback, and the 4-6-0 Camelback. BTW, the Bicycle was my first Aristo loco, bought it for the equivalent of $100  in the early nineties  here in Vienna.  The weight distribution of this thing is so bad that she barely pulls her own (heavy!) tender - I tinkered with her some time to get as much weight as possible on the driver, finally I made a mold of the tender shell and did a resin copy of it --- could not resist to apply some fancy scrollwork and my private roadname.... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7315	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: 4-4-2 sold by both

Have to add this quick to make tally right . The 4-4-2 (and I'm not talking about the big wheel Rivarossi 4-4-2) was sold by both Polk's and GHC so don't count twice. I think the total is now 16. (As was the 4-6-0 , not the style painted blue , sold by both but don't count it twice).                                   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7316	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Can you guess ?

Ray,  Hope you got the message and pictures that is was first John English and PL bought out and Bowser / Lew English uses it now.                             Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can you guess ? Looks like its for a Bowser K-4

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7317	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Gerold,  Yes, the 0-4-0 Side Tank Switcher and the 0-6-0 Side Tank Switcher, as well as the SP 4-4-2 Atlantic (w/Large Drivers) are all Rivarossi engines, listed in the catalog (Aristo-Craft -- 1962) as "3 Special Aristo Locos." The drive in the the Atlantic appears to be the same as in my Rivarrosi Hiawatha. The 1872 Saddle-Tank 0-6-0 Switcher is an all-cast metal Aristo-Craft engine, in the "Pioneer Series;" same Series that contained the "Typical 0-4-0 Switching Loco & Tender of the 1880's" (CB&Q # 335), the " . . . 1893 World's Fair Winner 2-4-2 Columbia Type Locomotive and Tender" (Baldwin Locomotive Works), the "2-6-0 Thomas Rogers Mogul of the Civil War Era" (Philadelphia & Reading). the "1880 . . . Single Driver Baldwin 4-2-2 'Bicycle' Type Locomotive & Tender" (Philadelphia & Reading # 507) and supposedly the "Mason 0-4-4 Double-Truck Tank Locomotive" (ONWARD). The "4-6-0 TenWheeler Locomotive" (Illinois Central # 95 -- "Casey Jones" type) is also an all-cast metal Aristo-Craft engine, but in the "Classic Series;" -- same Series as is found the ". . . 4-4-2 Atlantic-Type Locomotive and Tender" (Baltimore and Ohio # 157), the "4-6-0 Royal Blue Ten-Wheeler Type Locomotive" (Baltimore and Ohio #1470) and the "2-8-0 Consolidation Type New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad" (NYNH&H RR # 60).  Am sorry, I know absolutely zilch about posting a photo, besides my computor is barely holding out.  I may need defragmentation and such of the whatchamacallit, as was suggested by another member for someone else here, but that's far beyond me.  After getting my 'puter problems squared away, fellow member Chuck Higdon has been kind enough to show me how to do this. I see your Mountain type engine is the same as mine then, with it being lettered for Chesapeake & Ohio -- U.S. (U.S.R.A.). This engine, the Frisco 2-8-2 Mikado and the 0-8-0 Ashland Coal & Iron Railway Switcher Loco are categorized as being in the "Golden Age" Series.  Best,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7318	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Hi Jim,  I should have that RMC issue; I'll look back and see if I can dig out that article, thanks for the advise.  I've found the 4-6-0 CNJ Camelbacks to be the worst with zamac rot -- I had two and both crumbled.  I've seen many, many more in the same state of condition.  Another local modeler I know had about 3 or four, all developing the nasties.  One other thing I found -- the main rods on some of these engines can be very brittle.  For that reason, I limit the running of them.  I learned the hard way with my B&O Atlantic, busting a main rod.  Luckily, I was able to find a junker at a meet.   Yes, the 0-4-0 and the 0-6-0 Side Tank engines are plastic, and are Rivarossi as I told Gerold.  They're found as still being made in the 1962 catalog, and listed in there as "Aristo-Craft--Rivarossi".  Perhaps it was listed as "Aristo-- Rossi" in  earlier catalogs, I don't know as I don't have those catalogs from the early '50's. Yes, you would not have any paperwork, since these engines came factory assembled, nestled in pre-formed fabric covered bases within one-piece boxes (with a plastic window), and having a folding top.  They came packed fairly well protected.  Best,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7319	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: Can you guess ?

Jim,  I should have known -- I have 3 John English Pacifics and 2 John Engish Mikados (all, luckily in mint condition).  Just spoke before thinking too hard, as I was just staring at the frame of one of my Bowser K-4 tenders only a week ago when I changed trucks on it.  Yes, I saw you later give-away.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7320	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 8/31/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Ray,     Absolutely right about the 4-6-0 Camelback being a real bad engine for disintegrating. I usually find the tender in the worst shape. I am very lucky to have one where both the Engine and Tender were in good shape. I honestly didn't think any were. The only problem with mine had been the front truck broke where the screw attaches to the boiler. I always found it odd that New One made the engines for Polks and GHC, yet the GHC engines seemed the worse for disintegrating.  (I've always called it Zinc pest and don't know where I picked it up. Someone told me it is a German phrase for the disintegration). I would think they were exactly the same material / mixture but maybe some slight differences. I haven't had any trouble with main rods but then I have never really run any of these engines.      I have the 1959 Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies. Pages 15,16 and 17 list Aristo-Rossi  HO Gauge ready to run trains. These pages show those little switchers we were talking about. It also shows the Aristo Rossi ( Rivarossi made) FM unit that had the heavy Bakelite plastic body and the European style cab 2-8-0 tender driven engines. You would know these as Lionel sold both under their name but made by Rivarossi plus the 4-4-2 Atlantic (with what looks like oversize drivers) and of course the streamlined Hiawatha. I remember one person telling me I was '"nuts" when I mentioned Aristo Rossi.  Well it's past my bedtime Ha Ha. Time to rest my one typing finger.                                        Have a good one                                  Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Hi Jim,  I should have that RMC issue; I'll look back and see if I can dig out that article, thanks for the advise.  I've found the 4-6-0 CNJ Camelbacks to be the worst with zamac rot -- I had two and both crumbled.  I've seen many, many more in the same state of condition.  Another local modeler I know had about 3 or four, all developing the nasties.  One other thing I found -- the main rods on some of these engines can be very brittle.  For that reason, I limit the running of them.  I learned the hard way with my B&O Atlantic, busting a main rod.  Luckily, I was able to find a junker at a meet.   Yes, the 0-4-0 and the 0-6-0 Side Tank engines are plastic, and are Rivarossi as I told Gerold.  They're found as still being made in the 1962 catalog, and listed in there as "Aristo-Craft- -Rivarossi" .  Perhaps it was listed as "Aristo-- Rossi" in  earlier catalogs, I don't know as I don't have those catalogs from the early '50's. Yes, you would not have any paperwork, since these engines came factory assembled, nestled in pre-formed fabric covered bases within one-piece boxes (with a plastic window), and having a folding top.  They came packed fairly well protected.  Best,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7321	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: DMC E unit 2nd type

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 9:21 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC E unit 2nd type > Jim, > > The pictures you include with your postings do not affect the sites > space as they are not saved by Yahoo. Only the pictures you put in > the photos section use available space. > > If I understand Yahoo groups parameters correctly, there is no > limitation (or a very big one) on the files section. You could put > your photos in a folder (or several, like one folder or subfolder for > each product line) in the files section with out adversely affecting > the site's available space. > > John Hagen I would prefer the files section for scans of paperwork etc., actual model photos should go in the photo albums. Space could become an issue we will have to deal with soon, I may do as some moderators have and create a second group for storage, or I may recommend some of the larger collections (like mine) be moved to another service (I use Flickr) with links here. We'll burn that bridge when we come to it :-) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7322	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Hi Jim   What causes zink to desentagrate is there is lead in the alloy mixture, that stuff makes it so brittle after a few years, that if you look at it, it falls apart before your eyes...........:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 9:09:52 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Ray,     Absolutely right about the 4-6-0 Camelback being a real bad engine for disintegrating. I usually find the tender in the worst shape. I am very lucky to have one where both the Engine and Tender were in good shape. I honestly didn't think any were. The only problem with mine had been the front truck broke where the screw attaches to the boiler. I always found it odd that New One made the engines for Polks and GHC, yet the GHC engines seemed the worse for disintegrating.  (I've always called it Zinc pest and don't know where I picked it up. Someone told me it is a German phrase for the disintegration) . I would think they were exactly the same material / mixture but maybe some slight differences. I haven't had any trouble with main rods but then I have never really run any of these engines.      I have the 1959 Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies. Pages 15,16 and 17 list Aristo-Rossi  HO Gauge ready to run trains. These pages show those little switchers we were talking about. It also shows the Aristo Rossi ( Rivarossi made) FM unit that had the heavy Bakelite plastic body and the European style cab 2-8-0 tender driven engines. You would know these as Lionel sold both under their name but made by Rivarossi plus the 4-4-2 Atlantic (with what looks like oversize drivers) and of course the streamlined Hiawatha. I remember one person telling me I was '"nuts" when I mentioned Aristo Rossi.  Well it's past my bedtime Ha Ha. Time to rest my one typing finger.                                        Have a good one                                  Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@wmconnect. com To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Hi Jim,  I should have that RMC issue; I'll look back and see if I can dig out that article, thanks for the advise.  I've found the 4-6-0 CNJ Camelbacks to be the worst with zamac rot -- I had two and both crumbled.  I've seen many, many more in the same state of condition.  Another local modeler I know had about 3 or four, all developing the nasties.  One other thing I found -- the main rods on some of these engines can be very brittle.  For that reason, I limit the running of them.  I learned the hard way with my B&O Atlantic, busting a main rod.  Luckily, I was able to find a junker at a meet.   Yes, the 0-4-0 and the 0-6-0 Side Tank engines are plastic, and are Rivarossi as I told Gerold.  They're found as still being made in the 1962 catalog, and listed in there as "Aristo-Craft- -Rivarossi" .  Perhaps it was listed as "Aristo-- Rossi" in  earlier catalogs, I don't know as I don't have those catalogs from the early '50's. Yes, you would not have any paperwork, since these engines came factory assembled, nestled in pre-formed fabric covered bases within one-piece boxes (with a plastic window), and having a folding top.  They came packed fairly well protected.  Best,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7323	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Fw: [1-87scalevehiclesales] I checked this with Yahoo and you can se

Attachments : This has been posted on several other groups I belong to, I'm sending it to all of my groups, as well as some that I belong to who haven't had the chance to see it, as for all lists owned by betsy662, if you join grouply, you will be banned immediatly, no ifs ands or buts about it..........:o)   Gary W   -------- Original Message -------- Evening All.   This message has been posted to several other groups that I am in and in view of the potential damage this can do, I think it important that you should all know about it.   Please beware that there is a new type of scam appearing, You get an email asking you to join an organization called GROUPLY. It claims to sort all your groups and contacts list. You are asked to include your Yahoo Id and PASSWORD to join and once in control can use your system to send more invites to all in your contacts. If you get one of these invites DELETE IT AT ONCE. If you have already joined send separate notification to group owners as otherwise they may think that you are the one doing the scam postings. It may be necessary for you existing membership to be cancelled, as your Yahoo ID will have been compromised, and oyu will have to rejoin under a new Id. Please pass this on to other groups that you are in.  I checked with Yahoo and here is their response. Do not respond if you get the Grouply email request!   . Trixie: I would like to inform you that Grouply removes the word PRIVATE from this definition. Trixie: It collects all Yahoo! Group messages and stores them on Grouply servers for all who are members of Yahoo! Groups and of Grouply. Trixie: Even if you are not a member of Grouply your messages are sent to the Grouply server even if one member of your Yahoo! Group is also a member of Grouply. Trixie: Here are some clarifications based on the Yahoo! Groups Guidelines that every Yahoo! user should adhere to when dealing with 3rd party sites (please note that the Groups Guidelines are tied to Yahoo!'s general Terms of Service and should be followed by all Groups users and moderators): Trixie: If you are considering providing your Yahoo! username and password to a 3rd party site which stores that information on their own site, please carefully consider the risks before doing so. Giving access to a 3rd party can be very unsafe as the 3rd party site can access your Yahoo! account as if it was you accessing your own account. For example, they could access your address book and send emails to your friends, change your account settings, or gain access to your personal information. Wayne Doran: So I should advise my group memebers not to join Grouply Trixie: If you want your group to be safe from public, I suggest yes. Wayne Doran: thank you

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7324	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: New One Mikado Tenders

Attachments : Hi Gerold, Ray, Everybody,               First please excuse the dust or what ever that could show up in any pictures. Trying to keep so large a collection clean takes a lot of time. The two pictures will show the two types of tenders that New One had with their Mikado's. You can see the differences in length, style, trucks, detail, etc.               I know the larger tender appears in my early catalogs and on the boxes. It was seen with the number 345 on it. Later, I don't no why or when they started putting the large 4 digit gold numbers on this larger tender.              Later this Frisco Mikado started showing up with the shorter style tender. Again I don't know when. It also had the large 4 digit numbers. This tender is used on the 4-8-2 Mountain (C&O with big US on side) also. I "wonder "if they went to using the short tender on both the 2-8-2 and 4-8-2 as a way to save money. I have not seen the larger tender used on others.             I have seen this number change many times on different Mikes (both tenders) but always starting with 4. It, the tenders are the only ones I can remember for any HO that used so many factory printed different numbers. I once tried to watch to see how many different numbers they used but gave up after a couple.                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7325	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: 4-4-2 sold by both

This is correct, I have a couple of each and the locos are identical, only the boxes are different. I don't know if it has been mentioned so far, but "The New One" eventually became part of Tenshodo. The history is complex, but I lived across the street from the Tenshodo building back in the 1990s and had the chance to learn some of the history. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Have to add this quick to make tally right . The 4-4-2 (and I'm not talking about the big wheel Rivarossi 4-4-2) was sold by both Polk's and GHC so don't count twice. I think the total is now 16. (As was the 4-6-0 , not the style painted blue , sold by both but don't count it twice). > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7326	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Hi Jim,  You are lucky to have found a good 4-6-0 CNJ Camelback.  I gave up trying to find one without having the zamac disintegration problem.  The two I had, I gave away as parts to that local collector I mentioned.  Needless to say (or I may have already said it), his too came down with that rot, and I haven't seen a good one since. No doubt you're probably aware that the John English models were affected by the zamac problem, especially the tender (truck support columns) and tender trucks, etc.  The boilers and anything else related to the engine itself, were usually trouble-free, almost as if these two parts (engine -- and tender) were cast by two different outfits (or cast at two different times), although I really doubt that.  Still it is odd.  Just as odd as these problems being found to be so much worse in some distributor's Camelbacks than others (Polk vs GHC).  Might be that Polk was willing to pay a little more money for them, for a better grade of alloys. Some collectors feel that this disintegration was due directly to the mixing of lead with zinc.  As I understand it, this problem was due to the impurities that found their way into these alloys, and with the improper mixture of these two metals.  In the printing trade (that I was in), the reservoirs -- melting pots -- for both the Ludlow and Linotype machines had to be periodically cleaned of the dross that would accumulate in the melted type metal (lead, tin & antimony) used to cast lines of type.  This "dross" was the impurities than would constantly accumulate, desspite the precautions we took when casting the type metal ingots.  "Purifier" metals were added to the ingot furnaces during the casting of these ingots. While this problem has occurred in the castings of model railroad models at one time or another, you'll note that this was especially prevalent during the Korean War when certain metals were scarce (used for the War).  To me, this would show that it was a problem in the mixing of the metals in the proper proportions, as some manufacturers tried to skimp with the mixture or couldn't get the higher costing metals.  Also, while certain manufacturers, such as Varney, was relatively free from these problems (not to say they didn't have any), other manufacturers were plagued by it, which could make itself known at any time, even 20 years later.  I think after this much time has now passed, that we're pretty much home free from seeing any more spontaneously appear.  I can't exclude any manufacturer from this as I've seen parts of some pre-War Varney engines even having this, but by now I'm fairly sure the worst is behind us. I find the info on the Aristo-Rossi name intersting, and would like you to know I'm not refuting it in the least.  My purpose was only to let you know how these models were referred to by Aristo-Craft in their later years.  Getting to the Bakelite plastic, which I recall as seeing been used in some model electrical components (and Varney used this material in some pre-War rolling stock), my Hiawatha superstructure is made of thick Bakelite (and came factory-painted).  I found this model somewhere around 1986 or 1987, at a train meet, not even displayed but in a milk crate under a dealer's table.  Since then, I've found it pays to ask these dealers if they have certain items, if you don't see it.  Haven't seen one before or since, nor have I heard of any mentioned from other modelers I know.  I feel this may be scarcer than the Penn Line Crusader, although I have no idea how many were made.  Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7327	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Gary,            I have also heard that companies casting items, in an effort to save everything, swept the floor to get scrap metal and threw  it in the pot creating impurities in the metal                                                                   Jim.                                                                                               ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Hi Jim   What causes zink to desentagrate is there is lead in the alloy mixture, that stuff makes it so brittle after a few years, that if you look at it, it falls apart before your eyes........ ...:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 9:09:52 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Ray,     Absolutely right about the 4-6-0 Camelback being a real bad engine for disintegrating. I usually find the tender in the worst shape. I am very lucky to have one where both the Engine and Tender were in good shape. I honestly didn't think any were. The only problem with mine had been the front truck broke where the screw attaches to the boiler. I always found it odd that New One made the engines for Polks and GHC, yet the GHC engines seemed the worse for disintegrating.  (I've always called it Zinc pest and don't know where I picked it up. Someone told me it is a German phrase for the disintegration) . I would think they were exactly the same material / mixture but maybe some slight differences. I haven't had any trouble with main rods but then I have never really run any of these engines.      I have the 1959 Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies. Pages 15,16 and 17 list Aristo-Rossi  HO Gauge ready to run trains. These pages show those little switchers we were talking about. It also shows the Aristo Rossi ( Rivarossi made) FM unit that had the heavy Bakelite plastic body and the European style cab 2-8-0 tender driven engines. You would know these as Lionel sold both under their name but made by Rivarossi plus the 4-4-2 Atlantic (with what looks like oversize drivers) and of course the streamlined Hiawatha. I remember one person telling me I was '"nuts" when I mentioned Aristo Rossi.  Well it's past my bedtime Ha Ha. Time to rest my one typing finger.                                        Have a good one                                  Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@wmconnect. com To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Hi Jim,  I should have that RMC issue; I'll look back and see if I can dig out that article, thanks for the advise.  I've found the 4-6-0 CNJ Camelbacks to be the worst with zamac rot -- I had two and both crumbled.  I've seen many, many more in the same state of condition.  Another local modeler I know had about 3 or four, all developing the nasties.  One other thing I found -- the main rods on some of these engines can be very brittle.  For that reason, I limit the running of them.  I learned the hard way with my B&O Atlantic, busting a main rod.  Luckily, I was able to find a junker at a meet.   Yes, the 0-4-0 and the 0-6-0 Side Tank engines are plastic, and are Rivarossi as I told Gerold.  They're found as still being made in the 1962 catalog, and listed in there as "Aristo-Craft- -Rivarossi" .  Perhaps it was listed as "Aristo-- Rossi" in  earlier catalogs, I don't know as I don't have those catalogs from the early '50's. Yes, you would not have any paperwork, since these engines came factory assembled, nestled in pre-formed fabric covered bases within one-piece boxes (with a plastic window), and having a folding top.  They came packed fairly well protected.  Best,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7328	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Hi Ray and All,         I really thought that I would never find the New One CNJ 4-6-0 Camelback in good shape (so far and Ive had it for a number of years.) I'll send you a picture of mine. Everything original but the front truck which was broke where you put the screw in. I put the closest thing I had to it on. Most would not even notice. Everything about it is in good shape including the paint job.          I guess I've been pretty lucky with John English items. Again I am limited to one of each. I have the Pacific, Mikado, 0-4-0 Yardbird, FA & FB Alcos and the two (coach and combine) metal passenger cars. Every item has been reconditioned to original as all in poor shape some close to basket case. All items are repainted and decaled since originally kits and no factory paint jobs. Have never ran into a problem, even with the tenders, having a problem.        Learned more about "zinc pest" and having you have back ground makes it interesting . THANKS TO OTHERS WHO ALSO ALL SAY THE SAME THINGS. This will be printed and filed with your permission.         I had never previously heard Aristo Rossi used till it was in that 1959 catalog from Polk's. I think we all know that Nat Polk was very innovative. You are lucky to have found a Rivarossi Hiawatha. I don't have it. I've seen a very few up for sale. Many years ago I was offered one for $40. I passed it up as I didn't have the money at the time. I've seen a few lately go for $1500. I have never heard a production number for this engine. If you found one with the factory paint job in good shape I feel it to be one of a small group of "well known" collectible vintage HO. My opinion but I know others would agree.          Have to end this. Wife calling for dinner. Can't miss that.                                                                                           Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Hi Jim,  You are lucky to have found a good 4-6-0 CNJ Camelback.  I gave up trying to find one without having the zamac disintegration problem.  The two I had, I gave away as parts to that local collector I mentioned.  Needless to say (or I may have already said it), his too came down with that rot, and I haven't seen a good one since. No doubt you're probably aware that the John English models were affected by the zamac problem, especially the tender (truck support columns) and tender trucks, etc.  The boilers and anything else related to the engine itself, were usually trouble-free, almost as if these two parts (engine -- and tender) were cast by two different outfits (or cast at two different times), although I really doubt that.  Still it is odd.  Just as odd as these problems being found to be so much worse in some distributor' s Camelbacks than others (Polk vs GHC).  Might be that Polk was willing to pay a little more money for them, for a better grade of alloys. Some collectors feel that this disintegration was due directly to the mixing of lead with zinc.  As I understand it, this problem was due to the impurities that found their way into these alloys, and with the improper mixture of these two metals.  In the printing trade (that I was in), the reservoirs -- melting pots -- for both the Ludlow and Linotype machines had to be periodically cleaned of the dross that would accumulate in the melted type metal (lead, tin & antimony) used to cast lines of type.  This "dross" was the impurities than would constantly accumulate, desspite the precautions we took when casting the type metal ingots.  "Purifier" metals were added to the ingot furnaces during the casting of these ingots. While this problem has occurred in the castings of model railroad models at one time or another, you'll note that this was especially prevalent during the Korean War when certain metals were scarce (used for the War).  To me, this would show that it was a problem in the mixing of the metals in the proper proportions, as some manufacturers tried to skimp with the mixture or couldn't get the higher costing metals.  Also, while certain manufacturers, such as Varney, was relatively free from these problems (not to say they didn't have any), other manufacturers were plagued by it, which could make itself known at any time, even 20 years later.  I think after this much time has now passed, that we're pretty much home free from seeing any more spontaneously appear.  I can't exclude any manufacturer from this as I've seen parts of some pre-War Varney engines even having this, but by now I'm fairly sure the worst is behind us. I find the info on the Aristo-Rossi name intersting, and would like you to know I'm not refuting it in the least.  My purpose was only to let you know how these models were referred to by Aristo-Craft in their later years.  Getting to the Bakelite plastic, which I recall as seeing been used in some model electrical components (and Varney used this material in some pre-War rolling stock), my Hiawatha superstructure is made of thick Bakelite (and came factory-painted) .  I found this model somewhere around 1986 or 1987, at a train meet, not even displayed but in a milk crate under a dealer's table.  Since then, I've found it pays to ask these dealers if they have certain items, if you don't see it.  Haven't seen one before or since, nor have I heard of any mentioned from other modelers I know.  I feel this may be scarcer than the Penn Line Crusader, although I have no idea how many were made.  Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7329	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: New One 4-6-0 GHC Camelback

Attachments : Hi Ray, Gerold, All,                      Since we talked about this engine and how many disintegrated thought I would show you mine. I think very lucky to have such a nice specimen. Probably got it in the early 80's and since it was made around 1960 I don't think it will crack after all these years.            I don't know why the pictures are turned on their side. I didn't take them that way. I also didn't feel like walking a flight of steps again to get different ones                                                                          Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7330	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Hi Jim,   That about the size of it, much of just after WWII, many of the impurities could be found in old radiators and other metal alloys that were in said scrap heap............:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 1, 2008 9:39:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Gary,            I have also heard that companies casting items, in an effort to save everything, swept the floor to get scrap metal and threw  it in the pot creating impurities in the metal                                                                   Jim.                                                                                               ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Hi Jim   What causes zink to desentagrate is there is lead in the alloy mixture, that stuff makes it so brittle after a few years, that if you look at it, it falls apart before your eyes........ ...:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 9:09:52 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Ray,     Absolutely right about the 4-6-0 Camelback being a real bad engine for disintegrating. I usually find the tender in the worst shape. I am very lucky to have one where both the Engine and Tender were in good shape. I honestly didn't think any were. The only problem with mine had been the front truck broke where the screw attaches to the boiler. I always found it odd that New One made the engines for Polks and GHC, yet the GHC engines seemed the worse for disintegrating.  (I've always called it Zinc pest and don't know where I picked it up. Someone told me it is a German phrase for the disintegration) . I would think they were exactly the same material / mixture but maybe some slight differences. I haven't had any trouble with main rods but then I have never really run any of these engines.      I have the 1959 Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies. Pages 15,16 and 17 list Aristo-Rossi  HO Gauge ready to run trains. These pages show those little switchers we were talking about. It also shows the Aristo Rossi ( Rivarossi made) FM unit that had the heavy Bakelite plastic body and the European style cab 2-8-0 tender driven engines. You would know these as Lionel sold both under their name but made by Rivarossi plus the 4-4-2 Atlantic (with what looks like oversize drivers) and of course the streamlined Hiawatha. I remember one person telling me I was '"nuts" when I mentioned Aristo Rossi.  Well it's past my bedtime Ha Ha. Time to rest my one typing finger.                                        Have a good one                                  Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@wmconnect. com To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Hi Jim,  I should have that RMC issue; I'll look back and see if I can dig out that article, thanks for the advise.  I've found the 4-6-0 CNJ Camelbacks to be the worst with zamac rot -- I had two and both crumbled.  I've seen many, many more in the same state of condition.  Another local modeler I know had about 3 or four, all developing the nasties.  One other thing I found -- the main rods on some of these engines can be very brittle.  For that reason, I limit the running of them.  I learned the hard way with my B&O Atlantic, busting a main rod.  Luckily, I was able to find a junker at a meet.   Yes, the 0-4-0 and the 0-6-0 Side Tank engines are plastic, and are Rivarossi as I told Gerold.  They're found as still being made in the 1962 catalog, and listed in there as "Aristo-Craft- -Rivarossi" .  Perhaps it was listed as "Aristo-- Rossi" in  earlier catalogs, I don't know as I don't have those catalogs from the early '50's. Yes, you would not have any paperwork, since these engines came factory assembled, nestled in pre-formed fabric covered bases within one-piece boxes (with a plastic window), and having a folding top.  They came packed fairly well protected.  Best,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7331	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

I also consider most of the Aristicraft/New One engines ugly. But even more so, unreliable and very poor performing engines. I worked at a hobby shop (Models Hobbies, Ferndale MI) for the 1965 and 66 Christmas seasons. The back room was piled from floor to ceiling with these engines, and we were told to 'push' these pieces of crap on our customers. The 2nd year was hard for me, since I had dealt with all the after Christmas returns from the previous year, and I tried to steer my customers to more reliable engines from Athearn or Mantua, but the Aristos were Cheap, and not everyone listened to concerns of quality. So for more then 40 years I associate the Aristicraft/New One engines with the very worst quality HO engines I know. If someone else derives satisfaction collecting these pieces, that's fine, but I don't own any, nor ever intend to. Dave --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > Jim , > > I have quickly read over the other engines on your list Two > > observations for now. Other changes, additions next time. > > Unless I missed seeing it listed you missed the TWO 0-4-0 > > Camelbacks. I say two because they had differences although the basics > > were the same. One had a straight stack and one a flared stack. They > > each had different style tenders. I have both so I can show you. They > > both are original and both were sold that way. If I remember right > > they both were sold under the GHC label but still New One. > Sorry, forgot about those... I actually have several in various states > of disrepair but I found them so ugly I have stashed them away somewhere > under other stuff... > > Second item. The 2-8-2 Frisco came with two different tenders. > > One was a shorter style with 4 axle trucks. The other was a longer > > style with 6 axle trucks. Both original, both were sold. The tenders > > can be seen in Aristo Craft catalogs or on the side of their boxes. > > Both styles of tender use the same gold numbers printed on the sides, > > mainly 4 digit but for some odd reason both tenders come with many > > different four digit numbers. I at one time actually thought the > > numbers were a series number that identified the one you bought > > because of how many numbers you could get, but that is not true. They > > just happened to change numbers. > Interesting, I never realized they came with two different tenders - > thought this was a mix up with tenders of other locos. I have two > Mikados, both with four axle trucks- one repainted, the other numbered > 4005. A picture I have on file shows the C&O Mountain with an identical > tender, but lettered Chesapeake & Ohio - US . The Mountain I have came > with an Bowser long haul tender.... and I got badly burned when I > bought a "Berkshire" which actually was an Mikado with an Bowser > trailing truck. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7332	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: New One 0-4-0 Camelback(s) ?

Attachments : Hi Gerold, Ray. Everybody              I decided to send you the pictures of the two, GHC/New One 0-4-0 Camelbacks I have. I might have to change my tune on one. Both these were bought years ago. The bottom one ,done in Reading, is a repaint that I did. The engine came to me in the 70's in sad shape. It was the best example I could buy at the time. I know this to be a GHC New One               The second engine ,painted for the Pennsy, I bought off someone or at a show back a couple of years ago. When I bought It I took it to be a second type of the GHC 0-4-0 Camelback. It was repainted but looking to quickly at that time I saw a different stack , a different headlight and different tender but with the same engine body, motor, drivers and valve gear  along with the trucks on the tender the same as the first. Since it needed no repair I put it on the shelf next to the first. Other then moving from one house to another it never came off the shelf where it has sat till today. When I took it down to photograph against the other I found something out I had not seen before. The tender is not cast but sheet brass.               So I will have to change my tune and say only one GHC 0-4-0 Camelback. I thought I had seen this Pennsy one in an add or somewhere but can't remember where and since I can't back it up with proof  I will recant that it is a second type of GHC / New One 0-4-0. All those years it sat there I never checked it closely.                    Back to the drawing board on this.                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7333	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Hi Dave,            Can't argue with you.  You are absolutely right that they were poor performing, unreliable but ugly no. "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" I don't collect them to run them. They are however  oddities that make them appealing to collectors. As a collector I want them just as they were no matter how bad that is. They are a very essential part of vintage HO history and have to be included.                Thanks for your input                                                                                                     Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Ayers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 2:33 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New One Japan I also consider most of the Aristicraft/ New One engines ugly. But even more so, unreliable and very poor performing engines. I worked at a hobby shop (Models Hobbies, Ferndale MI) for the 1965 and 66 Christmas seasons. The back room was piled from floor to ceiling with these engines, and we were told to 'push' these pieces of crap on our customers. The 2nd year was hard for me, since I had dealt with all the after Christmas returns from the previous year, and I tried to steer my customers to more reliable engines from Athearn or Mantua, but the Aristos were Cheap, and not everyone listened to concerns of quality. So for more then 40 years I associate the Aristicraft/ New One engines with the very worst quality HO engines I know. If someone else derives satisfaction collecting these pieces, that's fine, but I don't own any, nor ever intend to. Dave --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > Jim , > > I have quickly read over the other engines on your list Two > > observations for now. Other changes, additions next time. > > Unless I missed seeing it listed you missed the TWO 0-4-0 > > Camelbacks. I say two because they had differences although the basics > > were the same. One had a straight stack and one a flared stack. They > > each had different style tenders. I have both so I can show you. They > > both are original and both were sold that way. If I remember right > > they both were sold under the GHC label but still New One. > Sorry, forgot about those... I actually have several in various states > of disrepair but I found them so ugly I have stashed them away somewhere > under other stuff... > > Second item. The 2-8-2 Frisco came with two different tenders. > > One was a shorter style with 4 axle trucks. The other was a longer > > style with 6 axle trucks. Both original, both were sold. The tenders > > can be seen in Aristo Craft catalogs or on the side of their boxes. > > Both styles of tender use the same gold numbers printed on the sides, > > mainly 4 digit but for some odd reason both tenders come with many > > different four digit numbers. I at one time actually thought the > > numbers were a series number that identified the one you bought > > because of how many numbers you could get, but that is not true. They > > just happened to change numbers. > Interesting, I never realized they came with two different tenders - > thought this was a mix up with tenders of other locos. I have two > Mikados, both with four axle trucks- one repainted, the other numbered > 4005. A picture I have on file shows the C&O Mountain with an identical > tender, but lettered Chesapeake & Ohio - US . The Mountain I have came > with an Bowser long haul tender.... and I got badly burned when I > bought a "Berkshire" which actually was an Mikado with an Bowser > trailing truck. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7334	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: [1-87scalevehiclesales] I checked this with Yahoo and you ca

Gary Woodard wrote: > This has been posted on several other groups I belong to, I'm sending it > to all of my groups, as well as some that I belong to who haven't had > the chance to see it, as for all lists owned by betsy662, if you join > grouply, you will be banned immediatly, no ifs ands or buts about > it..........:o) I just received one of those a few messages before this one. Luckily we had already been warned about it, but even if we had not there would be no way I would give my ID and password to any person, place or thing requesting them. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "Cats are rather delicate creatures and they are subject to a good many ailments, but I never heard of one who suffered from insomnia." - Joseph Wood Krutch

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7335	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Jim,  I haven't heard of any zamac problems with any other John English models, but just like the Varney F-3's, you'll see a lot of missing steps on the FA's & FB's from careless handling.  Hobbytown's ALCo Road diesels using similar (same?) molds have the steps separate, to be added by the modeler.  I seem to recall there's a story of there being a connection between John English and Hobbytown with these FA bodies, just as I seem to recall there may be some connection between Hobbytown and Lindsay with the PA bodies -- but if there is, I don't remember it. If you're looking for permission to use that stuff I wrote about the zamac problems, go right ahead.  As you saw, I feel its a combination of both the wrong mixture of metals to make a stable alloy (trying to save money), and impurities in these alloys by certain manufacturers.  Yes, I do recall that story of some manufacturers using sweepings from the floor as part of what they cast their parts from back then.  Looks like certain stories circulate when dramatics enter the picture, and while it may well be true it can at least be said that it paints a vivid picture in everyone's mind of them doing this, which is why its so memorable.  Just touching back on pre-War Varney's products with this problem -- while Varney's zamac problems were comparatively few, I remember their floating bearing blocks as sometimes getting this.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7336	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan... Hobbytown/English/Hobbline confusion

Concerning the English FA/FB units... the original ones, advertised around 1952, were die cast metal, and had cast on steps. I have come across these units with steps missing many times... but not always a result of careless handling. Apparently, it was common at some point, many years ago... to remove the steps in an effort to allow the use of small radius trackwork... far more common then than it certainly is now. Look back at track plans from fifty years ago... and 12 and 15 inch radius turns were not all that uncommon. English/Hobbyline produced the same piece in plastic later, with separate steps that fit into notches on the plastic frame. Lionel used the same mold for the early FA/FB units with a different drive... with cast on steps again... although molded in plastic. The other FA/FB referred to is actually a Lindsay unit... also first advertised around 1952. This was a die cast metal FA2/FB2 as opposed to the English unit which was an FA1/FB1. Hobbytown also sold a a version of the Lindsay FA/FB unit with their drive in it... sometimes including a multi drive connection so that all four trucks between the pair of units could be powered by a single motor. Both Hobbytown and Lindsay had their own versions of an ALCO PA... different from each other, sharing no parts... the Hobbytown version is definitely the one more commonly found. I hope I got all of this right, at one time or another, I have owned one or more of each of these pieces. I still have some of them, actually quite a few... some complete, some in disrepair. Stephen Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7337	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

Ray,         The John English, Hobbytown and Lindsay FA bodies were very similar. First looks make it hard to notice differences that I  don't remember off hand. If there was a connection of the FA's  I'm not sure.         As for as a conection between Hobbytown and Lindsay PA's, I remember that the HOSC&H-SIG had ask members if they knew. One was could the same die have been used for both companies after modifying it for the two different bodies. Again there were small differences that could be changed in the dies but costly. I have some tool and die experience although not with these type of dies. One of the big differences for me was when looking down on the nose of the body from above the shape was much different. I felt that it would have been to expensive to take one die and make the necessary changes to the other die. I remember drawing a diagram with what I saw as differences and sending to Dave Spanagel to put in the news letter. I remember Dave making notations/additions on it when it appeared. We asked what others thought. No different information appeared and people seemed to agree. Very scientific.           Was there any connection. No definite information came forward but knowing how many times one maker used another's ideas, products or bought them out is very prevalent especially in HO.           A long way around to get to a maybe answer.           Yes I had noticed some of those Varney floating bearing blocks cracking. To me. at least the ones I've seen, were more hair line cracks then actual disintegration. I say this because I had a way, at least for me, to save them some going on  20 years. I would run the runniest AC into the cracks a couple of times and then just sand them flat. Of course this won't stop badly cracking, disintegrating pieces or those that have strain on them like a side or main rod. People told me they won't last because that zinc pest would continue to disintegrate.  I think a number of those early frames warped badly Others cracked in half but that could have  been poor handling due to a weak point in the design. But that was limited in Varney as you said. Again my perspective. Any thoughts on that.                                                                                                                          Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Jim,  I haven't heard of any zamac problems with any other John English models, but just like the Varney F-3's, you'll see a lot of missing steps on the FA's & FB's from careless handling.  Hobbytown's ALCo Road diesels using similar (same?) molds have the steps separate, to be added by the modeler.  I seem to recall there's a story of there being a connection between John English and Hobbytown with these FA bodies, just as I seem to recall there may be some connection between Hobbytown and Lindsay with the PA bodies -- but if there is, I don't remember it. If you're looking for permission to use that stuff I wrote about the zamac problems, go right ahead.  As you saw, I feel its a combination of both the wrong mixture of metals to make a stable alloy (trying to save money), and impurities in these alloys by certain manufacturers.  Yes, I do recall that story of some manufacturers using sweepings from the floor as part of what they cast their parts from back then.  Looks like certain stories circulate when dramatics enter the picture, and while it may well be true it can at least be said that it paints a vivid picture in everyone's mind of them doing this, which is why its so memorable.  Just touching back on pre-War Varney's products with this problem -- while Varney's zamac problems were comparatively few, I remember their floating bearing blocks as sometimes getting this.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7338	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: Identify Mobilgas tank car?

OK, it has been loaded.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk@... Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 9:03 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Identify Mobilgas tank car?   You can add -- Union Starch Syrup to the Single-Dome Red Ball tank cars.  I KNEW I should have looked further, but was just too lazy to do so.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7339	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

I have a John English ALCo FA-FB--one geared truck has some Zamak Rot--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Jim,  I haven't heard of any zamac problems with any other John English models, but just like the Varney F-3's, you'll see a lot of missing steps on the FA's & FB's from careless handling.  Hobbytown's ALCo Road diesels using similar (same?) molds have the steps separate, to be added by the modeler.  I seem to recall there's a story of there being a connection between John English and Hobbytown with these FA bodies, just as I seem to recall there may be some connection between Hobbytown and Lindsay with the PA bodies -- but if there is, I don't remember it. If you're looking for permission to use that stuff I wrote about the zamac problems, go right ahead.  As you saw, I feel its a combination of both the wrong mixture of metals to make a stable alloy (trying to save money), and impurities in these alloys by certain manufacturers.  Yes, I do recall that story of some manufacturers using sweepings from the floor as part of what they cast their parts from back then.  Looks like certain stories circulate when dramatics enter the picture, and while it may well be true it can at least be said that it paints a vivid picture in everyone's mind of them doing this, which is why its so memorable.  Just touching back on pre-War Varney's products with this problem -- while Varney's zamac problems were comparatively few, I remember their floating bearing blocks as sometimes getting this.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7340	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

I have two of the Yardbirds that have detiorating side and mainrods, if my ambition level should increase it should not be too difficult to make new ones.   I thought the Hobbyline FA's went to Lionel.   Roger Aultman        I have a John English ALCo FA-FB--one geared truck has some Zamak Rot--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@wmconnect. com To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan Jim,  I haven't heard of any zamac problems with any other John English models, but just like the Varney F-3's, you'll see a lot of missing steps on the FA's & FB's from careless handling.  Hobbytown's ALCo Road diesels using similar (same?) molds have the steps separate, to be added by the modeler.  I seem to recall there's a story of there being a connection between John English and Hobbytown with these FA bodies, just as I seem to recall there may be some connection between Hobbytown and Lindsay with the PA bodies -- but if there is, I don't remember it. If you're looking for permission to use that stuff I wrote about the zamac problems, go right ahead.  As you saw, I feel its a combination of both the wrong mixture of metals to make a stable alloy (trying to save money), and impurities in these alloys by certain manufacturers.  Yes, I do recall that story of some manufacturers using sweepings from the floor as part of what they cast their parts from back then.  Looks like certain stories circulate when dramatics enter the picture, and while it may well be true it can at least be said that it paints a vivid picture in everyone's mind of them doing this, which is why its so memorable.  Just touching back on pre-War Varney's products with this problem -- while Varney's zamac problems were comparatively few, I remember their floating bearing blocks as sometimes getting this.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7341	From: Lee	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

I have two of these cars from the San Diego NMRA, one of them being the Mini City Car, given to me by a dear friend that got it from the show himself. He told me of the events, and of many of the other pieces of rolling stock that he passed on to me. Lee --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Prather" <prather.js@...> wrote: > > On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:54:19 -0500, Bill Wright wrote: > > >I think Train Miniature was a product of the 1970s. The 1974 San Diego > >NMRA convention car was a TM and a local hobby shop, Mini-City, had one > >available for convention attendees. I think the line was relatively new > >at the time. > > Yep. I lived only a few miles from Mini-City at the time and > that and the Whistle Stop, were my local hobby shops. I wish I > could say that I attended that convention, but I can't; what > time I could take off from work I was spending operating on the > Pacific Beach & Western at the Del Mar Fairgrounds for the > convention tours. (It was fun.) > > Cheers/2, > > > Jerry > > - > It isn't so good that it couldn't get better; it isn't so bad that it couldn't be worse. > - Lyrics from a song written by T. Wolf and F. Landeman >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7342	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/1/2008
Subject: Re: Train-Miniature

I also have those two--as well as most of the rest of the cars issued by NMRA and PCR since about the mid sixties. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee" <leetrains@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 8:00 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Train-Miniature > I have two of these cars from the San Diego NMRA, one of them being > the Mini City Car, given to me by a dear friend that got it from the > show himself. He told me of the events, and of many of the other > pieces of rolling stock that he passed on to me. Lee > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Prather" <prather.js@...> > wrote: >> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:54:19 -0500, Bill Wright wrote: >> >> >I think Train Miniature was a product of the 1970s. The 1974 San > Diego >> >NMRA convention car was a TM and a local hobby shop, Mini-City, > had one >> >available for convention attendees. I think the line was > relatively new >> >at the time. >> >> Yep. I lived only a few miles from Mini-City at the time and >> that and the Whistle Stop, were my local hobby shops. I wish I >> could say that I attended that convention, but I can't; what >> time I could take off from work I was spending operating on the >> Pacific Beach & Western at the Del Mar Fairgrounds for the >> convention tours. (It was fun.) >> >> Cheers/2, >> >> >> Jerry >> >> - >> It isn't so good that it couldn't get better; it isn't so bad that > it couldn't be worse. >> - Lyrics from a song written by T. Wolf and F. Landeman >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7343	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: 2 Mint New One Engines

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                     Unless someone wants pictures of others this will be the last of the cast, zamac, steam, New One engines. I still have 8 others,all different, that Ray had talked about or shown in the ad you posted. I want to "get back" to items that are lesser known.              These happen to be pictures of really mint items. These were sold by Polk's.           Next item will be a Crescent EMC 2800 ( That's what they called it. An E unit to me but don't know which one)                                                                            Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7344	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Crescent powered E unit

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                 Back to basics of lesser known, harder to find vintage HO.                                                                                   This is a Crescent EMC 2800 ( E 3/6 ?) The address was  Crescent Model Products    21 Chandelle Road      Baltimore 20, Maryland. Every piece of information I have found said made in 1950. It is a sheet brass kit you assembled. A unique part seems to be that it came in a couple of boxes. Much like some Varney steam. I have a long skinny box that on the end states    Crescent Model Product   Diesel Cab Kit  No. DNS 2800-1. Seems like there had to at least a No. 2    I also have the end of a much bigger box that is square. Don't know how long it was. It states    HO Gauge    Passenger Diesel Nose Section  Kit Form  No. DNS 2800. You had to solder together the nose pieces and shape it as supplied plans show. Wasn't easy.            The assembly of the rest of the kit not to bad. You can see in the picture showing the motor/drive that it is gear to gear 6 wheels powered. The other truck a dummy. Some of the detail parts especially the ladders look a little oversize. I painted and decaled this engine. I showed one of the plans. There are written instructions plus the sheet for making the nose. Don't intend to send them to save space. If you want now let me know. HO Seeker will have all these plans and others I have posted on his site when time available.           This is the only engine, in fact item, I know by this company. Any one having information about other items PLEASE let me know.                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7345	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Sean Thanks will give them a try by phone Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sean naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re:Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 19:39:38 +0000 > > > Paypals # 888 221 1161 They might be able to help & the wait is > never very long. Sean > > ---------- > Sent from the Cingular network using Mobile Email > > ------Original Message------ > From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, Aug 31, 2008 02:05 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > > GaryActually have two Pay Pal accounts I can not get into either one for > the passwords will not be accepted, and I know I am using the correct > passwords, jsut will not work, I keep trying though > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Woodard" > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) > > Hi Charles,Why not open a paypal account?????:o) Gary W > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:22:53 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay > > GroupFor me Ebay vs Trainlists and meets are a Moot point, soon I > will not be able to participate on ebay due to not having a PayPal > account(no Credit Card to draw from), and no Train Meets around this > part of country so basically I a Screwed!!! Oh Well story of my life.CAW > > > -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle > Visit OnCars.com today. > > > > > -- > Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle > Visit OnCars.com today. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7346	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Gary Gonna try E-bay has become a big part of my buying life. Thanks for the encouragement. CAW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Hi Charles,   Then you need to contact paypal and find out what the situation is, it might just be something very simple, (it usually is), don't let Murphy's law get the best of ya here............:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 3:05:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Gary Actually have two Pay Pal accounts I can not get into either one for the passwords will not be accepted, and I know I am using the correct passwords, jsut will not work, I keep trying though ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Hi Charles, Why not open a paypal account????? :o)   Gary W     ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@mindless. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:22:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Group For me Ebay vs Trainlists and meets are a Moot point, soon I will not be able to participate on ebay due to not having a PayPal account(no Credit Card to draw from), and no Train Meets around this part of country so basically I a Screwed!!! Oh Well story of my life. CAW   -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today. -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today. -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7347	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan... Hobbytown/English/Hobbline confusion

Hi Stephen,               My response a little late. I think you got everything exactly right. I am no authority on real size engines. I know there are FA and FB Alco's. Although I don't know the differences between type 1 and 2,  everything you say correct as far as the models especially Hobbytown using Lindsay shells with their frame/power/drive                 Another person commented that HObbyline plastic FA  Alco went to Lionel. Correct.  Hope I state this right.  The John English 4-6-2 Pacific and 2-8-2 Mikado dies / molds went to Lionel. The 0-4-0 Yardbird was produced by John English in metal then in  plastic (both powered and static) under the HObbyline name (John English plastic). This along with a powered plastic engine and static plastic kit of an 0-4-0T went to Lionel. The metal John English FA  became the HObbyline (John English) plastic version . That went to Lionel also. Not sure about the FB other then John English metal. I don't remember it produced in plastic under HObbyline (John English). Would have to check Lionel HO books to see if they made a plastic version from the John English molds.                 While I have examples of these engines now at one time I couldn't keep track of them. Thanks to correspondence with George Horan and later Fred Coppala Jr. (hope I'm spelling that right) and a Rev. Rick Tonet of  Leechburg PA, who has a tremendous collection of HObbyline.                I've read this a few times so I hope I made no mistakes . Sometimes to much information at once.                                                                                    Jim H                                                                                                 ----- Original Message ----- From: MRLENGAL2U@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One Japan... Hobbytown/English/Hobbline confusion Concerning the English FA/FB units... the original ones, advertised around 1952, were die cast metal, and had cast on steps. I have come across these units with steps missing many times... but not always a result of careless handling. Apparently, it was common at some point, many years ago... to remove the steps in an effort to allow the use of small radius trackwork... far more common then than it certainly is now. Look back at track plans from fifty years ago... and 12 and 15 inch radius turns were not all that uncommon. English/Hobbyline produced the same piece in plastic later, with separate steps that fit into notches on the plastic frame. Lionel used the same mold for the early FA/FB units with a different drive... with cast on steps again... although molded in plastic. The other FA/FB referred to is actually a Lindsay unit... also first advertised around 1952. This was a die cast metal FA2/FB2 as opposed to the English unit which was an FA1/FB1. Hobbytown also sold a a version of the Lindsay FA/FB unit with their drive in it... sometimes including a multi drive connection so that all four trucks between the pair of units could be powered by a single motor. Both Hobbytown and Lindsay had their own versions of an ALCO PA... different from each other, sharing no parts... the Hobbytown version is definitely the one more commonly found. I hope I got all of this right, at one time or another, I have owned one or more of each of these pieces. I still have some of them, actually quite a few... some complete, some in disrepair. Stephen Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices More!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7348	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay

Hi Charles,   I know its become a large part of my buying and selling.........:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2008 1:35:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Gary Gonna try E-bay has become a big part of my buying life. Thanks for the encouragement. CAW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Hi Charles,   Then you need to contact paypal and find out what the situation is, it might just be something very simple, (it usually is), don't let Murphy's law get the best of ya here........ ....:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@mindless. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 3:05:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Gary Actually have two Pay Pal accounts I can not get into either one for the passwords will not be accepted, and I know I am using the correct passwords, jsut will not work, I keep trying though ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Woodard" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Hi Charles, Why not open a paypal account????? :o)   Gary W     ----- Original Message ---- From: Charles Windes <cwindes@mindless. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:22:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: List, Train Shows vs Ebay Group For me Ebay vs Trainlists and meets are a Moot point, soon I will not be able to participate on ebay due to not having a PayPal account(no Credit Card to draw from), and no Train Meets around this part of country so basically I a Screwed!!! Oh Well story of my life. CAW   -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today. -- Nothing says Labor Day like 500hp of American muscle Visit OnCars.com today. -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7349	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

The reason given to me by a dealer in Fla. many years ago was Cadmium. He said that the Cadmium crystallized in the zamac and coused it to fail. The Lionel OO gage Hudsons often had parts, like the pilots, fail. We need a metalurgist to tell us what the real problem was/is. As to Bakelite, it was an early plastic like compound, not a true plastic, and very brittle. Bakelite was used extentively for table top radio cabinets. Tenshodo made a Bakelite NYC 60' heavyweight baggage car from Bakelite, and the the Gilbert postwar HO track base was Bakelite. Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote: > > Hi Jim, You are lucky to have found a good 4-6-0 CNJ Camelback. I gave up > trying to find one without having the zamac disintegration problem. The two I > had, I gave away as parts to that local collector I mentioned. Needless to > say (or I may have already said it), his too came down with that rot, and I > haven't seen a good one since. > > No doubt you're probably aware that the John English models were affected by > the zamac problem, especially the tender (truck support columns) and tender > trucks, etc. The boilers and anything else related to the engine itself, were > usually trouble-free, almost as if these two parts (engine -- and tender) were > cast by two different outfits (or cast at two different times), although I > really doubt that. Still it is odd. Just as odd as these problems being found > to be so much worse in some distributor's Camelbacks than others (Polk vs GHC). > Might be that Polk was willing to pay a little more money for them, for a > better grade of alloys. > > Some collectors feel that this disintegration was due directly to the mixing > of lead with zinc. As I understand it, this problem was due to the impurities > that found their way into these alloys, and with the improper mixture of > these two metals. In the printing trade (that I was in), the reservoirs -- > melting pots -- for both the Ludlow and Linotype machines had to be periodically > cleaned of the dross that would accumulate in the melted type metal (lead, tin & > antimony) used to cast lines of type. This "dross" was the impurities than > would constantly accumulate, desspite the precautions we took when casting the > type metal ingots. "Purifier" metals were added to the ingot furnaces during > the casting of these ingots. > > While this problem has occurred in the castings of model railroad models at > one time or another, you'll note that this was especially prevalent during the > Korean War when certain metals were scarce (used for the War). To me, this > would show that it was a problem in the mixing of the metals in the proper > proportions, as some manufacturers tried to skimp with the mixture or couldn't get > the higher costing metals. Also, while certain manufacturers, such as Varney, > was relatively free from these problems (not to say they didn't have any), > other manufacturers were plagued by it, which could make itself known at any > time, even 20 years later. I think after this much time has now passed, that > we're pretty much home free from seeing any more spontaneously appear. I can't > exclude any manufacturer from this as I've seen parts of some pre-War Varney > engines even having this, but by now I'm fairly sure the worst is behind us. > > I find the info on the Aristo-Rossi name intersting, and would like you to > know I'm not refuting it in the least. My purpose was only to let you know how > these models were referred to by Aristo-Craft in their later years. Getting > to the Bakelite plastic, which I recall as seeing been used in some model > electrical components (and Varney used this material in some pre-War rolling > stock), my Hiawatha superstructure is made of thick Bakelite (and came > factory-painted). I found this model somewhere around 1986 or 1987, at a train meet, not > even displayed but in a milk crate under a dealer's table. Since then, I've > found it pays to ask these dealers if they have certain items, if you don't see > it. Haven't seen one before or since, nor have I heard of any mentioned from > other modelers I know. I feel this may be scarcer than the Penn Line > Crusader, although I have no idea how many were made. Best, Ray W. > > </HTML> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7350	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 9/2/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

As to Bakelite, it is a Thermosetting plastic. Most plastics are Thermoplastics, which can be remelted and reformed. Thermosetting plastics are one way streets, they can only be molded once. But they are still 'true' plastics :) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoset Dave --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: > > The reason given to me by a dealer in Fla. many years ago was Cadmium. > He said that the Cadmium crystallized in the zamac and coused it to > fail. The Lionel OO gage Hudsons often had parts, like the pilots, > fail. We need a metalurgist to tell us what the real problem was/is. > > As to Bakelite, it was an early plastic like compound, not a true > plastic, and very brittle. Bakelite was used extentively for table top > radio cabinets. Tenshodo made a Bakelite NYC 60' heavyweight baggage > car from Bakelite, and the the Gilbert postwar HO track base was > Bakelite. > > Walter >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7351	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: A Sad Site

Heres a link to the Mid Continent Railway Museum, the pix show what happened earlier this year when the Mississippi River went over its banks.....   http://http://www.1385.org/flood_08/6-10-08_1/index.html#1   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7352	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: clarify one point

To all,               Want to clarify and be more specific about one point when I talked about John English items going to Lionel. It concerns the metal 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 steam engines. Because they used the same body is why I said Lionel got them both. Lionel only produced a Pacific using the John English body, no Mikado that I know of.                                                                           Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7353	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: New Vids of Trainz

Hi All,   As many of you are aware, and some that aren't, my computer died recently, as the mother board took its last gasp and it was dead for sure, unfortunately, it was my gaming comp that took that hit, so now I'm running on a rent to own by here cry here type of box, not a bad computer really, and I am getting used to running Vista, for those who haven't gone to Vista yet, it is a very different OS from XP.   Finally got Trainz where it will run on Vista, after a few medical procedures within the program files, it really does work okay, I doubt seriously that I will be able to resurrect the the D&S route I was working on, which is unortunate, not because I don't think Vista would run it, but because I feel that this comp may not have enough video RAM to run it, however, til I can build me a new gaming rig, I get by as best I can, and here are a few new vids to show that it does work.....:o)   Gary W   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYbiJ5uCeQM   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx9T6kzJ8pI   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZlg-29i1I   And some older ones too, of the old D&S..   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46sQORgrFdg   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DR4Do2zcpc   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9p7ladVetY   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwK1MNkYWJE   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7354	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site

I had to delete the spaces in the address you provided, but I made it.. tis a shame, but I suppoose it could have been worse.   Sean --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> Subject: [vintageHO] A Sad Site To: HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, virtual_train_modeling@yahoogroups.com, oscaletrains@yahoogroups.com, Oscalekings@yahoogroups.com, otrains@yahoogroups.com, "Oscalers" <oscalers@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:00 AM Heres a link to the Mid Continent Railway Museum, the pix show what happened earlier this year when the Mississippi River went over its banks.....   http://http: //www.1385. org/flood_ 08/6-10-08_ 1/index.html# 1   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7355	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: J S Cambron PA & PB

Attachments : Hello Gerold,        Before I go on a quick note that I have copied all the DMC written materials you ask for. I have added the diagrams too since I can't scan. These are for both the engines and passenger cars. Should get them out to you today or tomorrow.         The pictures sent are      J S Cambron PA &PB engines.      Third picture shows a Lindsay PA for comparison because of one statement I will be including.     Don't know a lot about this company. It is said the only engines they produced. This information comes from other collector friends and Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon Volume ll.         Made in 1947  ?. Is some type of heavy Brass casting. There were only shells made. Luckily the holes for handrails are pre drilled as very thick casting. I have two newer Athearn drives under these shells. I had to use my milling machine to take out a lot of material to have them fit. Nice detailed castings         Now for why I have the Lindsay to compare. Jim Lenahan in his Lexicon has notations (no picture) that made in 1947. He says diecast only and may have been the body Lindsay used later. Everybody that I know having these bodies are Brass not Diecast. If there were any have not seen. As for comparing to Lindsay is why I included the cast Lindsay item.          To my eye very different casting molds/dies used. Mr. Lenahan had two very good Lexicons. Some of his statements were stated as possibilities because of a lack of specimens available. I think this is one small wrong.          A number of collectors I know have been comparing PA bodies made by  Athearn, Cambron, Hobbies Inc., Hobbytown, Lindsay to see if any copied from others or used others. Have not found any connection YET. If anyone has information please share.                                                        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7356	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: New One Japan

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Ayers" <daveayers@...> wrote: > > As to Bakelite, it is a Thermosetting plastic. Most plastics are > Thermoplastics, which can be remelted and reformed. Thermosetting > plastics are one way streets, they can only be molded once. But they > are still 'true' plastics :) > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoset I stand corrected. Thanks, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7357	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site

Attachments : Lennard Stewart wrote:     Here is the corrected link http://www.1385.org/flood_08/6-10-08_1/index.html#1 Gary Woodard wrote: Heres a link to the Mid Continent Railway Museum, the pix show what happened earlier this year when the Mississippi River went over its banks.....   http://http: //www.1385. org/flood_ 08/6-10-08_ 1/index.html# 1   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7358	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: TM Train Minatures

Attachments : Hi All,                I know there has been a lot discussion going on in the group about TM. While this company doesn't fit in to what I'm collecting I wanted to share this sheet of plans for their Alco FA-1. The plans seem to show an Athearn type drive system and trucks. I have to assume that the body is plastic. Not sure what HO company it was taken from or was it a TM design. Heres the plans, help me with the answers.                                                                          Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7359	From: Jerry Garteiser	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: TM Train Minatures

Not sure I can shed much light on this, BUT. . . .   I do have an A and a B unit.  Drive is Athearn; the shell is plastic and mine came in a plastic  bag with a Walthers label.  I believe I bought these two from Walthers around 1984/5.  As I recall, the only way they were available was “undec”.  Of course, Walthers now sells them all ready to roll and I believe the chassis is Life Like.   Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 12:55 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] TM Train Minatures   Hi All,                I know there has been a lot discussion going on in the group about TM. While this company doesn't fit in to what I'm collecting I wanted to share this sheet of plans for their Alco FA-1. The plans seem to show an Athearn type drive system and trucks. I have to assume that the body is plastic. Not sure what HO company it was taken from or was it a TM design. Heres the plans, help me with the answers.                                                                          Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7360	From: Ray Hobin	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i

Walter J. Bayer II" bayerw@... opined: > >The reason given to me by a dealer in Fla. many years ago was Cadmium. >He said that the Cadmium crystallized in the zamac and coused it to >fail. The Lionel OO gage Hudsons often had parts, like the pilots, >fail. We need a metalurgist to tell us what the real problem was/is. Zinc-pest was heavily discussed a few years ago on other lists and groups. Unfortunately, I failed to retain most of the technical information; however, here is what my archives do contain and while it concerns itself with current offshore castings, the problems have existed for many years: >... received a booklet from the North American Die Casting >Association (ASTM) about the hidden costs of offshore (China, Korea, India, >etc.) suppliers. It mentions that some of the offshore casters >don't provide castings that meet ASTM alloy specifications. Too much >lead and too little aluminum and manganese will lead to intergranular >corrosion (the Zink-pest). Will we see another round of trains >crumbling like Dorfan? Only time will tell. > >... with routine chemical analysis it's very easy to control >the essential composition of Zamak, the alloy of choice for decades >in die-cast trains. Lead is the enemy and can be easily avoided. I >personally don't think that zinc-pest crumbling will ever rear its >ugly head again in our toys...(an ASTM Member) > Ray Hobin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7361	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site

Hi Sean and others,   I'm sorry about that link it should have worked but, my yahoomail sometimes just doesn't get it right.........:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 9:21:48 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A Sad Site I had to delete the spaces in the address you provided, but I made it.. tis a shame, but I suppoose it could have been worse.   Sean --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote: From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> Subject: [vintageHO] A Sad Site To: HOrailroading@ yahoogroups. com, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, virtual_train_ modeling@ yahoogroups. com, oscaletrains@ yahoogroups. com, Oscalekings@ yahoogroups. com, otrains@yahoogroups .com, "Oscalers" <oscalers@yahoogroup s.com> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:00 AM Heres a link to the Mid Continent Railway Museum, the pix show what happened earlier this year when the Mississippi River went over its banks.....   http://http: //www.1385. org/flood_ 08/6-10-08_ 1/index.html# 1   Gary W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7362	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: TM Train Minatures

The Athearn drive you show is the TM of Illinois version from the early 80's. When the units were first introduced, they had a flat sheet metal floor, and a Mabuchi "tin can" slot car motor. The Current "Trainline" version from Walthers uses, as someone else mentioned, a China drive similar to Life-Like. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 12:55 PM Subject: [vintageHO] TM Train Minatures Hi All, I know there has been a lot discussion going on in the group about TM. While this company doesn't fit in to what I'm collecting I wanted to share this sheet of plans for their Alco FA-1. The plans seem to show an Athearn type drive system and trucks. I have to assume that the body is plastic. Not sure what HO company it was taken from or was it a TM design. Heres the plans, help me with the answers. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7363	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i

Ray Hobin wrote: > Walter J. Bayer II" bayerw@... opined: > >> The reason given to me by a dealer in Fla. many years ago was Cadmium. >> He said that the Cadmium crystallized in the zamac and coused it to >> fail. The Lionel OO gage Hudsons often had parts, like the pilots, >> fail. We need a metalurgist to tell us what the real problem was/is. >> > > Zinc-pest was heavily discussed a few years ago on other lists and > groups. Unfortunately, I failed to retain most of the technical > information; however, here is what my archives do contain and while it > concerns itself with current offshore castings, the problems have > existed for many years: > > >> ... received a booklet from the North American Die Casting >> Association (ASTM) about the hidden costs of offshore (China, Korea, India, >> etc.) suppliers. It mentions that some of the offshore casters >> don't provide castings that meet ASTM alloy specifications. Too much >> lead and too little aluminum and manganese will lead to intergranular >> corrosion (the Zink-pest). Will we see another round of trains >> crumbling like Dorfan? Only time will tell. >> >> ... with routine chemical analysis it's very easy to control >> the essential composition of Zamak, the alloy of choice for decades >> in die-cast trains. Lead is the enemy and can be easily avoided. I >> personally don't think that zinc-pest crumbling will ever rear its >> ugly head again in our toys...(an ASTM Member) > >> Hehe .... Although I have no interest in this stuff I have learned that Maerklin of Germany had a serious problem with "intergranular corrosion" recently , they had contracted out some little diesel critters to the far east... when the whole affair was discussed on a German online forum, the executive in charge confirmed the story and was promtly fired . Who can translate " Deutsche Wertarbeit"? If somebody thinks this posting is inappropriate, I apologize in advance - but the story is to good to keep it for me. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7364	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:16 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i > > Walter J. Bayer II" bayerw@... opined: >> >>The reason given to me by a dealer in Fla. many years ago was Cadmium. >>He said that the Cadmium crystallized in the zamac and coused it to >>fail. The Lionel OO gage Hudsons often had parts, like the pilots, >>fail. We need a metalurgist to tell us what the real problem was/is. > > Zinc-pest was heavily discussed a few years ago on other lists and > groups. Unfortunately, I failed to retain most of the technical > information; however, here is what my archives do contain and while it > concerns itself with current offshore castings, the problems have > existed for many years: > >>... received a booklet from the North American Die Casting >>Association (ASTM) about the hidden costs of offshore (China, Korea, >>India, >>etc.) suppliers. It mentions that some of the offshore casters >>don't provide castings that meet ASTM alloy specifications. Too much >>lead and too little aluminum and manganese will lead to intergranular >>corrosion (the Zink-pest). Will we see another round of trains >>crumbling like Dorfan? Only time will tell. >> >>... with routine chemical analysis it's very easy to control >>the essential composition of Zamak, the alloy of choice for decades >>in die-cast trains. Lead is the enemy and can be easily avoided. I >>personally don't think that zinc-pest crumbling will ever rear its >>ugly head again in our toys...(an ASTM Member) > > > Ray Hobin Just TODAY there's a thread running on another list about Life Like proto 2000 e-units having crumbling frames. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7365	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/3/2008
Subject: Re: Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i

Don and group, I do not know how anyone should expect different. We send all our production to someplace where we have no control. I mean if their standards are so low that they will use lead containing paint on baby toys (of course they have little value for the health of babies there) why should we expect they will concern themselves with the lead content of model railroad components. Blame the politicians (there's some contamination in their make-up too)? Sure, but let us not forget those who elect them and who just about clean the dealers shelves off whenever some new China built model becomes available. And, yes, I include myself just as much as anyone else. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Just TODAY there's a thread running on another list about Life Like proto > 2000 e-units having crumbling frames. > > The more things change, the more they stay the same. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7366	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Hobbytown RDC

Attachments : Hi Gerold,         It's a beautiful day here in Eastern Pennsylvania USA. A really nice string of sunny warm days and cool nights.         Going to pass along some pictures of a Hobbytown item. Although Hobbytown ( and of Boston) is a pretty well known vintage HO company for their PA, E unit A&B, metal and plastic RS 2/3 ? engines and all the Hobbytown drives over the years this a little harder to find.         This is a Hobbytown RDC 2 and not just a Hobbytown drive. This is a powered sheet brass shell that Hobbytown sold. It is the only brass item that I know of that Hobbytown sold. I have a date of 1956 - 1958.  While I have seen a couple I don't think to many made.         The pictures will show what the drive looked like. This RDC is a little longer then Athearn RDC's. While Athearn are right around 10" this is 11 1/2 ". Perhaps someone can tell me what scale size should be.                                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7367	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Fw: Hobbytown RDC

Attachments :      Try again. After days of working right again this has not shown up in my mail box. Waiting for son in law to come in this weekend to check out especially disc cleanup and defragging as suggested.                                                                                            Jim                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:08 AM Subject: Hobbytown RDC Hi Gerold,         It's a beautiful day here in Eastern Pennsylvania USA. A really nice string of sunny warm days and cool nights.         Going to pass along some pictures of a Hobbytown item. Although Hobbytown ( and of Boston) is a pretty well known vintage HO company for their PA, E unit A&B, metal and plastic RS 2/3 ? engines and all the Hobbytown drives over the years this a little harder to find.         This is a Hobbytown RDC 2 and not just a Hobbytown drive. This is a powered sheet brass shell that Hobbytown sold. It is the only brass item that I know of that Hobbytown sold. I have a date of 1956 - 1958.  While I have seen a couple I don't think to many made.         The pictures will show what the drive looked like. This RDC is a little longer then Athearn RDC's. While Athearn are right around 10" this is 11 1/2 ". Perhaps someone can tell me what scale size should be.                                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7368	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC

Hobbytown was scale length--Athearn was shortened.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 7:08 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown RDC Hi Gerold,         It's a beautiful day here in Eastern Pennsylvania USA. A really nice string of sunny warm days and cool nights.         Going to pass along some pictures of a Hobbytown item. Although Hobbytown ( and of Boston) is a pretty well known vintage HO company for their PA, E unit A&B, metal and plastic RS 2/3 ? engines and all the Hobbytown drives over the years this a little harder to find.         This is a Hobbytown RDC 2 and not just a Hobbytown drive. This is a powered sheet brass shell that Hobbytown sold. It is the only brass item that I know of that Hobbytown sold. I have a date of 1956 - 1958.  While I have seen a couple I don't think to many made.         The pictures will show what the drive looked like. This RDC is a little longer then Athearn RDC's. While Athearn are right around 10" this is 11 1/2 ". Perhaps someone can tell me what scale size should be.                                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7369	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC

Thanks for the reply. Good to know     Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbytown RDC Hobbytown was scale length--Athearn was shortened.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 7:08 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown RDC Hi Gerold,         It's a beautiful day here in Eastern Pennsylvania USA. A really nice string of sunny warm days and cool nights.         Going to pass along some pictures of a Hobbytown item. Although Hobbytown ( and of Boston) is a pretty well known vintage HO company for their PA, E unit A&B, metal and plastic RS 2/3 ? engines and all the Hobbytown drives over the years this a little harder to find.         This is a Hobbytown RDC 2 and not just a Hobbytown drive. This is a powered sheet brass shell that Hobbytown sold. It is the only brass item that I know of that Hobbytown sold. I have a date of 1956 - 1958.  While I have seen a couple I don't think to many made.         The pictures will show what the drive looked like. This RDC is a little longer then Athearn RDC's. While Athearn are right around 10" this is 11 1/2 ". Perhaps someone can tell me what scale size should be.                                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7370	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC

Jim, Just so you know, each time you had problems with your first post not showing up in your mail box, it showed up in mine just fine. Thought you may want that info for your son when he comes. John Hagen St Francis (formerly town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Hobbytown was scale length--Athearn was shortened. gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7371	From: morgantownrr	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Laconia

Somebody must recall: In the entire time I have tuned to this site, I have not read anything about Laconia. I recall they offered an express wood sheath reefer, and an odd milk (?) car. Maybe a dry ice car. I believe they were good quality. Something they made was ballyhooed for it's being purple, probably a wine car. Dim recollection. Anybody else? And speaking of purple reminds me of the full page, probably two- color ads by Grain O' Wheat, featuring a brakeman on the side of a green Silver Streak wood sheath box car. I would guess they paid for green ink as an extra color; I don't think it was process color. Also, are others as struck as am I by the industry of the early manufacturers who created so many extraordinary items out of garage and basment Ma & Pa facilities? I recall especially someone who offered a large, (many feet long) kit for a rotary coal dumper, and had the wherewithall not only to market such a profound item, but also to advertise it, always it seems to me, on the first inside page of HO Trains. Maybe "Rock" something was the name. Anybody? MorganS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7372	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC

Thanks for the reply. It is good to know exactly what is happening. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown RDC Jim, Just so you know, each time you had problems with your first post not showing up in your mail box, it showed up in mine just fine. Thought you may want that info for your son when he comes. John Hagen St Francis (formerly town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > > Hobbytown was scale length--Athearn was shortened. gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7373	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Runnning Vintage

Attachments : Hi All,          I have been sending a number of pictures through the vintage HO web site. While they were going to a member in Austria, Gerold, I thought it might be helpful to send to all members. Hopefully some enjoyed the pictures and information.          I'm sending this picture of two Hobbytown PA's not because they are "rare" but because of the paint scheme. While I now limit myself to just the collecting and rebuilding of vintage HO at one time I ran vintage items on my layout.         I don't have my layout anymore .When we moved into new home I found I had made the layout to permanent and couldn't take it. I could not destroy what had taken years to finish (to about 98%) so I left it intact for new owner. The layout was 10' x 11' fully detailed with 4 main tracks and sidings plus Hydrocal sculpted and stained mountains, hand made trees, buildings (some hand built), roads, people ,etc. I even left the transformers, a sound system and some newer trains. The only memories I have left are a VCR tape of the layout and vintage items I had painted for my railroad scheme and ran.         These two PA Hobbytown Alco's are the last I have with my paint scheme. yea a different Penn Central. These Black and  Silver decaled engines were my passenger trains. It pulled a string of black and silver Ho streamlined passenger cars made by AMT ( American Model Toy) that became AMT ( Auburn Model Train) that became KMT (Kusan Model Train).          I'm passing this on because this site is also for people running vintage HO. I still would be if I had been a little smarter planning things. Now I'm to old to start a new layout even though I have a 20' x 30' train room.         And yes I also "modify' or create my own fantasy engines but not from rare vintage.                                      Have a nice day.                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7374	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Alco FA-1

Jim The plans are very interesting I never knew that TM ever attempted to make motive power. Thanks for the enlightinment. Charlie  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] TM Train Minatures Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:55:26 -0400 Hi All,                I know there has been a lot discussion going on in the group about TM. While this company doesn't fit in to what I'm collecting I wanted to share this sheet of plans for their Alco FA-1. The plans seem to show an Athearn type drive system and trucks. I have to assume that the body is plastic. Not sure what HO company it was taken from or was it a TM design. Heres the plans, help me with the answers.                                                                          Jim << IMG_2176_1.JPG >> -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7375	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Reply to Gerold

Gerold I don't know I kind of like hearing some "big wig" somewhere who thought they were going to make a killing out of outsourcing getting the axe whether it is vintage or not,,CHOP CHOP. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i > Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:28:55 +0200 > Hehe .... Although I have no interest in this stuff I have learned that > Maerklin of Germany had a serious problem with "intergranular corrosion" > recently , they had contracted out some little diesel critters to the > far east... when the whole affair was discussed on a German online > forum, the executive in charge confirmed the story and was promtly fired . > Who can translate " Deutsche Wertarbeit"? > If somebody thinks this posting is inappropriate, I apologize in > advance - but the story is to good to keep it for me. > > Gerold > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7376	From: jay matz	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia

Morgan Rock Lane Models Elkins Park,Pa..  Kit #1 Rotary Dumper Trestle & Conveyor. I have a kit new in the box. I don't know if they made anything else.  Back in the 60s I built a kit for my layout, took up a lot of room but looked neat. Somewhere I have some Laconia kits Box cars .I thing they made a hopper car also. Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7377	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Reply to Gerold

If American business did the same thing there would be a much larger unemployment line. Ahhh, what a beautiful dream, ehna? John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > > Gerold > I don't know I kind of like hearing some "big wig" somewhere who thought they were going to make a killing out of outsourcing getting the axe whether it is vintage or not,,CHOP CHOP. > Charlie > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Zamac-pest: Was "New One"...i > > Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:28:55 +0200 > > > Hehe .... Although I have no interest in this stuff I have learned that > > Maerklin of Germany had a serious problem with "intergranular corrosion" > > recently , they had contracted out some little diesel critters to the > > far east... when the whole affair was discussed on a German online > > forum, the executive in charge confirmed the story and was promtly fired . > > Who can translate " Deutsche Wertarbeit"? > > If somebody thinks this posting is inappropriate, I apologize in > > advance - but the story is to good to keep it for me. > > > > Gerold > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7378	From: Chris B	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Jim, they're an inspiration.    I'll be retiring fairly soon, and I'm finally building that dream layout.  I'm rebuilding/modifying 26 pieces of all metal vintage motive power to run on it, all intended to be scale models based on the actual 26 diesel switchers, electric freight motors, and gas electric rail cars that ran on the Washington and Old Dominion in the '39-'59 era.    I'm reworking hobbytown, MEW, Ivers, and brass shells and they're all getting modifed original or hobbytown drivetrains.  I've also accumulated several dozen vintage metal freight cars, hoppers, flats, gondolas and box cars, and I'm learning from HOSeeker and this site.   It's a multi-level layout, but I've got enough tru-scale track, crossovers, and turnouts to handle the top most visible layer.  I've got a dozen unbuilt revell structures, the most common kits we've all seen a hundred times, but I hope to get some of the Suydam sheet metal structure kits, just to carry through on the all metal theme.   I'm sure I'm not the only one building a new layout based on operating vintage equipment, but I have to say this site helps keep me motivated when the whole idea seems crazy, when the model rr mags are full of DCC, chinese plastic, sound chips, intermodal container trains, and all the rest.   I know the Hobbytown PAs aren't the rare steam treasures that you and others in this group are so diligently working to accurately document and record for posterity, but thanks, it's reassuring to know you have coal as well as diamonds on your shelves.   Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 12:19:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Hi All,          I have been sending a number of pictures through the vintage HO web site. While they were going to a member in Austria, Gerold, I thought it might be helpful to send to all members. Hopefully some enjoyed the pictures and information.          I'm sending this picture of two Hobbytown PA's not because they are "rare" but because of the paint scheme. While I now limit myself to just the collecting and rebuilding of vintage HO at one time I ran vintage items on my layout.         I don't have my layout anymore .When we moved into new home I found I had made the layout to permanent and couldn't take it. I could not destroy what had taken years to finish (to about 98%) so I left it intact for new owner. The layout was 10' x 11' fully detailed with 4 main tracks and sidings plus Hydrocal sculpted and stained mountains, hand made trees, buildings (some hand built), roads, people ,etc. I even left the transformers, a sound system and some newer trains. The only memories I have left are a VCR tape of the layout and vintage items I had painted for my railroad scheme and ran.         These two PA Hobbytown Alco's are the last I have with my paint scheme. yea a different Penn Central. These Black and  Silver decaled engines were my passenger trains. It pulled a string of black and silver Ho streamlined passenger cars made by AMT ( American Model Toy) that became AMT ( Auburn Model Train) that became KMT (Kusan Model Train).          I'm passing this on because this site is also for people running vintage HO. I still would be if I had been a little smarter planning things. Now I'm to old to start a new layout even though I have a 20' x 30' train room.         And yes I also "modify' or create my own fantasy engines but not from rare vintage.                                      Have a nice day.                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7379	From: Chris B	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC

Jim, fwiw, another thing to tell him is...   all the image files I download from your emaisl are files dated 12/1/2049.  Fast clock maybe? ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 12:34:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown RDC Thanks for the reply. It is good to know exactly what is happening. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown RDC Jim, Just so you know, each time you had problems with your first post not showing up in your mail box, it showed up in mine just fine. Thought you may want that info for your son when he comes. John Hagen St Francis (formerly town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > > Hobbytown was scale length--Athearn was shortened. gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7380	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Chris,               Thanks for response about clock set at 2049. I'll have that checked. First let me say my Hobbytown engines and others are treasures to me.  I really like how you say having coal with the diamonds. I got a good chuckle but for a good reason. I have a large collection that includes a lot of items some might think of being not important. If it was made between 1937 - 1975 (give or take a year) it is important to me. And that includes a lot of "coal" too. I'm not going to bore people by sending almost 700 items. I was just trying to send things a lot might not have heard of.               I just wanted to let people know I was not just a "collector". and since this site is open to a lot of areas concerning vintage HO I thought I'd share that too. I came from a time before electronics as people have found out about my computer experience. DCC, computer chips are beyond me and my interest is not "modern". Heck I'm lucky I knew how to go forward and reverse.              I think the important part is to do what you like best. To each his own. Yet I still learn things even though not in the area I like. HO is a BIG area. I wish you luck with your adventure. Work at it as a fun thing and you'll accomplish so much more.            Always available if I can help.                                            Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Jim, they're an inspiration.    I'll be retiring fairly soon, and I'm finally building that dream layout.  I'm rebuilding/modifyin g 26 pieces of all metal vintage motive power to run on it, all intended to be scale models based on the actual 26 diesel switchers, electric freight motors, and gas electric rail cars that ran on the Washington and Old Dominion in the '39-'59 era.    I'm reworking hobbytown, MEW, Ivers, and brass shells and they're all getting modifed original or hobbytown drivetrains.  I've also accumulated several dozen vintage metal freight cars, hoppers, flats, gondolas and box cars, and I'm learning from HOSeeker and this site.   It's a multi-level layout, but I've got enough tru-scale track, crossovers, and turnouts to handle the top most visible layer.  I've got a dozen unbuilt revell structures, the most common kits we've all seen a hundred times, but I hope to get some of the Suydam sheet metal structure kits, just to carry through on the all metal theme.   I'm sure I'm not the only one building a new layout based on operating vintage equipment, but I have to say this site helps keep me motivated when the whole idea seems crazy, when the model rr mags are full of DCC, chinese plastic, sound chips, intermodal container trains, and all the rest.   I know the Hobbytown PAs aren't the rare steam treasures that you and others in this group are so diligently working to accurately document and record for posterity, but thanks, it's reassuring to know you have coal as well as diamonds on your shelves.   Chris Brannigan ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 12:19:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Hi All,          I have been sending a number of pictures through the vintage HO web site. While they were going to a member in Austria, Gerold, I thought it might be helpful to send to all members. Hopefully some enjoyed the pictures and information.          I'm sending this picture of two Hobbytown PA's not because they are "rare" but because of the paint scheme. While I now limit myself to just the collecting and rebuilding of vintage HO at one time I ran vintage items on my layout.         I don't have my layout anymore .When we moved into new home I found I had made the layout to permanent and couldn't take it. I could not destroy what had taken years to finish (to about 98%) so I left it intact for new owner. The layout was 10' x 11' fully detailed with 4 main tracks and sidings plus Hydrocal sculpted and stained mountains, hand made trees, buildings (some hand built), roads, people ,etc. I even left the transformers, a sound system and some newer trains. The only memories I have left are a VCR tape of the layout and vintage items I had painted for my railroad scheme and ran.         These two PA Hobbytown Alco's are the last I have with my paint scheme. yea a different Penn Central. These Black and  Silver decaled engines were my passenger trains. It pulled a string of black and silver Ho streamlined passenger cars made by AMT ( American Model Toy) that became AMT ( Auburn Model Train) that became KMT (Kusan Model Train).          I'm passing this on because this site is also for people running vintage HO. I still would be if I had been a little smarter planning things. Now I'm to old to start a new layout even though I have a 20' x 30' train room.         And yes I also "modify' or create my own fantasy engines but not from rare vintage.                                      Have a nice day.                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7381	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Laconia

Attachments : Morgan S,                 You ask about Laconia cars. Can't help a lot with freight cars as I don't collect them. However I have this Laconia Passenger  car in O/Box   lettered on the end for     Sierra RR Combine.         Have the plans for it but not handy. Can dig out if needed. Roof, Sides and End Platforms are cast zamac. Floor is wood.                                                                              Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7382	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia

Jim Heckard wrote: > Morgan S, > You ask about Laconia cars. Can't help a lot with > freight cars as I don't collect them. However I have this Laconia > Passenger car in O/Box lettered on the end for Sierra RR > Combine. I have at least on of the Laconia Sierra cars, and I think possibly more than one. Not sure. I'm wondering if these may have also been sold under another name, as I'm thinking that may be the additional car(s) that I have. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "People talking in movie shows, "People smoking in bed, "People voting Republican, "Give them a boot to the head!" -Frantics, "Boot To The Head"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7383	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Fw: Hobbytown RDC

Your original posts are sDon Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sceneryhowing up in the group, I believe the problem has to be in the receiving end. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 9:25 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: Hobbytown RDC Try again. After days of working right again this has not shown up in my mail box. Waiting for son in law to come in this weekend to check out especially disc cleanup and defragging as suggested. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7384	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/4/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC

So his ISP is holding all the messages and he's going to be bombarded in 41 years! <G> Thankfully I don't expect to be around then to see it. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown RDC Jim, fwiw, another thing to tell him is... all the image files I download from your emaisl are files dated 12/1/2049. Fast clock maybe? ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 12:34:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown RDC Thanks for the reply. It is good to know exactly what is happening. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown RDC Jim, Just so you know, each time you had problems with your first post not showing up in your mail box, it showed up in mine just fine. Thought you may want that info for your son when he comes. John Hagen St Francis (formerly town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote: > > Hobbytown was scale length--Athearn was shortened. gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7385	From: ron plyler	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: New to group

Does anyone have a source on belts for Revell diesels?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7386	From: morgantownrr	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia

Jim Heckard Thanks for taking the time to answer about Laconia, and I appreciated the photo. I wasn't looking fr specific info, rather whether anybody else remembered them. They must have struck a note with a few, but not many. Thanks again MorganS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7387	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group

Hello Ron,   Let me be the first to say Welcome!   ...as for belts, though I might have a couple for my use, I would also like to wish you luck on that search as well...   Sean --- On Fri, 9/5/08, ron plyler <ron_tallyho@...> wrote: From: ron plyler <ron_tallyho@...> Subject: [vintageHO] New to group To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 8:17 AM Does anyone have a source on belts for Revell diesels?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7388	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Barr Nixon

Attachments : Hi Gerold and All,           I decided to send these pictures as I saw one on Ebay a few days ago. Listed as unknown with Varney drive.     This is a   Barr Nixon Products Co.   No.1802    H.O. Fairbanks Morse ( H-10-44 ) Diesel Switcher kit     PO Box 105  Mission, Kansas  Sold for $9.95 less power and trucks. Made in 1948 it states "made of 100% sheet brass. Only diecast parts are the couplers. Kit is arranged to take any standard power truck'.           My engine has a Varney power truck. The type with pulley / spring belt drive and Varney side frames. This is where an expert on the real engine has to answer. Are these side frames "normal" for this type of engine or should they be a different type ??             In 1950 this engine was bought out by Sampson most known for passenger cars but who did have some powered units. If you have had enough just say so. Still more but starting to feel I'm "hogging" the site. Let me know.                                                                   Later                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7389	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group

Hi Ron  Welcome.                                                                                                                                                                                             I have no extras. Revell did sell repair kits that sometimes appear on Ebay, that has these belts in them. Perhaps one of the members has this repair kit and can supply you with one.          I'm assuming you mean an O ring belt. If not go to a plumbing or hardware store. Ask if they have an boxed assortment of O rings. A lot of times you can match it up.          If nothing works and you can't find what you need contact me off list and I will give you a name of a large Revell collector I know who sells parts. He might be able to help.                                                                 Jim H     ----- Original Message ----- From: ron plyler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:17 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New to group Does anyone have a source on belts for Revell diesels?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7390	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon

I can only speak for myself (but I strongly suspect others feel the same way) - please keep it coming.  Otherwise, it's sort of like somebody being in a gold mine saying "well, there's still lots of gold here, but we've had enough".  There's never enough.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 7:08 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Barr Nixon Hi Gerold and All,           I decided to send these pictures as I saw one on Ebay a few days ago. Listed as unknown with Varney drive.     This is a   Barr Nixon Products Co.   No.1802    H.O. Fairbanks Morse ( H-10-44 ) Diesel Switcher kit     PO Box 105  Mission, Kansas  Sold for $9.95 less power and trucks. Made in 1948 it states "made of 100% sheet brass. Only diecast parts are the couplers. Kit is arranged to take any standard power truck'.           My engine has a Varney power truck. The type with pulley / spring belt drive and Varney side frames. This is where an expert on the real engine has to answer. Are these side frames "normal" for this type of engine or should they be a different type ??             In 1950 this engine was bought out by Sampson most known for passenger cars but who did have some powered units. If you have had enough just say so. Still more but starting to feel I'm "hogging" the site. Let me know.                                                                   Later                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7391	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon

Jim,   Love hearing/reading your posts.. (I hear it b/c I read aloud.. most disturbing to the people around me when I take public transportation..)   Just kidding.. I drive to work...   :P   Sean --- On Fri, 9/5/08, ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> wrote: From: ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Barr Nixon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:21 AM I can only speak for myself (but I strongly suspect others feel the same way) - please keep it coming.  Otherwise, it's sort of like somebody being in a gold mine saying "well, there's still lots of gold here, but we've had enough".  There's never enough.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 7:08 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Barr Nixon Hi Gerold and All,           I decided to send these pictures as I saw one on Ebay a few days ago. Listed as unknown with Varney drive.     This is a   Barr Nixon Products Co.   No.1802    H.O. Fairbanks Morse ( H-10-44 ) Diesel Switcher kit     PO Box 105  Mission, Kansas  Sold for $9.95 less power and trucks. Made in 1948 it states "made of 100% sheet brass. Only diecast parts are the couplers. Kit is arranged to take any standard power truck'.           My engine has a Varney power truck. The type with pulley / spring belt drive and Varney side frames. This is where an expert on the real engine has to answer. Are these side frames "normal" for this type of engine or should they be a different type ??             In 1950 this engine was bought out by Sampson most known for passenger cars but who did have some powered units. If you have had enough just say so. Still more but starting to feel I'm "hogging" the site. Let me know.                                                                   Later                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7392	From: Steven Winter	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group

If they are like the Athearn ones, I've used the bands from my daughters braces.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New to group Hi Ron  Welcome.                                                                                                                                                                   & nbsp;                         I have no extras. Revell did sell repair kits that sometimes appear on Ebay, that has these belts in them. Perhaps one of the members has this repair kit and can supply you with one.          I'm assuming you mean an O ring belt. If not go to a plumbing or hardware store. Ask if they have an boxed assortment of O rings. A lot of times you can match it up.          If nothing works and you can't find what you need contact me off list and I will give you a name of a large Revell collector I know who sells parts. He might be able to help.                                                                 Jim H     ----- Original Message ----- From: ron plyler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:17 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New to group Does anyone have a source on belts for Revell diesels?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7393	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group

Steve??   Where is your daughter now? and do you think she would mind if I used my needle noes pliers to pry them out of her mouth??   You scoundrel man! Taking the bands from your daughters braces!   No, I OD not believe he is looking for the rubber ones.. rather the metal coil spring bands..   Sean --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> wrote: From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New to group To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:26 PM If they are like the Athearn ones, I've used the bands from my daughters braces.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New to group Hi Ron  Welcome.                                                                                                                                                               &nbs p;    nbsp;                         I have no extras. Revell did sell repair kits that sometimes appear on Ebay, that has these belts in them. Perhaps one of the members has this repair kit and can supply you with one.          I'm assuming you mean an O ring belt. If not go to a plumbing or hardware store. Ask if they have an boxed assortment of O rings. A lot of times you can match it up.          If nothing works and you can't find what you need contact me off list and I will give you a name of a large Revell collector I know who sells parts. He might be able to help.                                                                 Jim H     ----- Original Message ----- From: ron plyler To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:17 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New to group Does anyone have a source on belts for Revell diesels?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7394	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group

All,           I have to think that Ron is looking for O rings only. Revell early first run Diesels (F-7's) and SW - 7's (I call them) used O ring drives. Revell had two types what they called Standard and Deluxe Drives. It had to do with a clutch for the deluxe drive. The rubber bands used on Athearn HI-F drive won't work very good on Revell.     But that is a good idea for replacing the rubber bands that were used on the Athearn HI-F as most of the originals over time melt/disintegrate.   As for the spring coil type belt they will work if you get them the right length but are not normal on Revell.                                                                                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New to group Steve??   Where is your daughter now? and do you think she would mind if I used my needle noes pliers to pry them out of her mouth??   You scoundrel man! Taking the bands from your daughters braces!   No, I OD not believe he is looking for the rubber ones.. rather the metal coil spring bands..   Sean --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Steven Winter <steven_winter@ yahoo.com> wrote: From: Steven Winter <steven_winter@ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New to group To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:26 PM If they are like the Athearn ones, I've used the bands from my daughters braces.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New to group Hi Ron  Welcome.                                                                                                                                                               &nbs p;    nbsp;                         I have no extras. Revell did sell repair kits that sometimes appear on Ebay, that has these belts in them. Perhaps one of the members has this repair kit and can supply you with one.          I'm assuming you mean an O ring belt. If not go to a plumbing or hardware store. Ask if they have an boxed assortment of O rings. A lot of times you can match it up.          If nothing works and you can't find what you need contact me off list and I will give you a name of a large Revell collector I know who sells parts. He might be able to help.                                                                 Jim H     ----- Original Message ----- From: ron plyler To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:17 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New to group Does anyone have a source on belts for Revell diesels?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7395	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Spring belts

Sean Naylor wrote: > Steve?? > > Where is your daughter now? and do you think she would mind if I used > my needle noes pliers to pry them out of her mouth?? > > You scoundrel man! Taking the bands from your daughters braces! > > No, I OD not believe he is looking for the rubber ones.. rather the > metal coil spring bands.. > > Sean > I havent any Revell diesels, but if you need metal coil springs for drive belts, ask your friendly mechanic for old shaft seals ... they have exactly this type of springs inside, to hold the rubber (actually polyurethane) lip against the rotating shaft. You have to cut them with some hard wire cutters to lenght, then bend a small hook from the first coil - thats the way all the coil springs on Suydam Trolleys were done ( there is no way to install a continuos spring) , and I also fabricate new springs for my vintage pantographs this way. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7396	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Jim 'Dems the Cat's Meow  as I stated my dad worked for the NYC, PC, Conrail, and I think they are just Fab. Very Nice. Charlie     -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7397	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon

Hi Jim,   I'm no expert by any means, but those trucks appear to be Blomburg Type B road trucks, which would be common on F units and Geeps, I believe FM switchers probably used switcher trucks......:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 5, 2008 10:08:28 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Barr Nixon Hi Gerold and All,           I decided to send these pictures as I saw one on Ebay a few days ago. Listed as unknown with Varney drive.     This is a   Barr Nixon Products Co.   No.1802    H.O. Fairbanks Morse ( H-10-44 ) Diesel Switcher kit     PO Box 105  Mission, Kansas  Sold for $9.95 less power and trucks. Made in 1948 it states "made of 100% sheet brass. Only diecast parts are the couplers. Kit is arranged to take any standard power truck'.           My engine has a Varney power truck. The type with pulley / spring belt drive and Varney side frames. This is where an expert on the real engine has to answer. Are these side frames "normal" for this type of engine or should they be a different type ??             In 1950 this engine was bought out by Sampson most known for passenger cars but who did have some powered units. If you have had enough just say so. Still more but starting to feel I'm "hogging" the site. Let me know.                                                                   Later                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7398	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Charlie,                     I'm probably pro New York Central. I especially like the Lightning Stripe paint scheme but a nut for streamlined steam. I like the NYC Empire State Express (ESE) because of the Silver and Black paint which is where I "stole" my P C colors from.                                              Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Jim 'Dems the Cat's Meow  as I stated my dad worked for the NYC, PC, Conrail, and I think they are just Fab. Very Nice. Charlie     -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7399	From: Nick	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC

Hi Jim, The actual Budd RDC-1, 2, and 3 were 85 feet long and the Budd RDC-4 was 73 feet long. That translates to 11.5 inches for the RDC-1, 2, and 3, and 10 inches for the RDC-4. I think Athearn started out making an RDC-4 which is about 10 inches long. Then they started making all their RDCs (metal and plastic) 10 inches long. Nick --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Gerold, > It's a beautiful day here in Eastern Pennsylvania USA. A really nice string of sunny warm days and cool nights. > Going to pass along some pictures of a Hobbytown item. Although Hobbytown ( and of Boston) is a pretty well known vintage HO company for their PA, E unit A&B, metal and plastic RS 2/3 ? engines and all the Hobbytown drives over the years this a little harder to find. > This is a Hobbytown RDC 2 and not just a Hobbytown drive. This is a powered sheet brass shell that Hobbytown sold. It is the only brass item that I know of that Hobbytown sold. I have a date of 1956 - 1958. While I have seen a couple I don't think to many made. > The pictures will show what the drive looked like. This RDC is a little longer then Athearn RDC's. While Athearn are right around 10" this is 11 1/2 ". Perhaps someone can tell me what scale size should be. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7400	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: New to group

I remember them as being O-rings--try any good hardware store. You want to match the diameter of the ring material as well as the overall diameter of the ring. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron plyler" <ron_tallyho@...> To:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7401	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: 090 Varney Pacific

Attachments : Hi Ray and All,                     I'm sure the subject matter caught your eye. I need your help in trying to resolve these differences.    Last year I purchased this 090  Southern Pacific 4-6-2 Pacific with bronze boiler and V-1 motor and wood/aluminum square back tender.                  I'm showing you a picture of the engine/tender, a picture of the box and the notation in the box that might be hard to see but I will note exactly what it says here "JANUARY 6th, 1937  Admiral Boyton Braur  Naval Proving Grounds  Dahlgrem Virginia $38.00. The person who sold it to me lives on family land in a county ( I will have to check his letter to make sure I'm stating right county)  Prince George County, Virginia. This model was bought and built by this Naval Admiral who was his Uncle. The seller backed up everything with letters and it also came with 4 early Walthers passenger cars.                The Varney guide by Dave S on page 24 bottom right states  " The first of Varney's locomotives were announced in January 1938, in a 4 page advertising folder which said two types , one freight (2-8-0) and one passenger (4-6-2) will be offered this Spring (would be still 1938)"               How do I reconcile the difference in dates? If the admiral bought it in Jan 1937 it would have had to be made in 1936. Which would differ from the Varney book date saying made 1938 and advertisement that said announced in Jan 1938 and available in mid 1938. Do I just ignore the written notation in the box and forget about it ?  Or do I question how accurate any of the information is. Either the box or the book. Please help me solve what I feel is a discrepancy.               I notified Dave of this after he stopped the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter. His words to me were "You really found something". He worked at the Portsmoutn Naval Yard, knew of the Proving Ground mentioned and the Admirals name. I wrote this over the weekend so we can discuss this. Hope your computer will work, if not we  will talk about it when you can. This would also give you time to study the "information"                    Have a good one         Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7402	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: must add to 090

Hi,     When I got the engine the frame was warped upward badly at the pilot end and replaced with an original and the trailing truck frame was broke and replaced. I still have the Spoked Brass trailing truck wheel.                                        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7403	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific

Hi Jim, It's Dahgren, with an "n" and it's in King George County, Virginia. Just thought I would throw that in since you mentioned it.   Brian L.,  Prince William, Virginia   In a message dated 9/5/2008 7:52:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes: Hi Ray and All,                     I'm sure the subject matter caught your eye. I need your help in trying to resolve these differences.    Last year I purchased this 090  Southern Pacific 4-6-2 Pacific with bronze boiler and V-1 motor and wood/aluminum square back tender.                  I'm showing you a picture of the engine/tender, a picture of the box and the notation in the box that might be hard to see but I will note exactly what it says here "JANUARY 6th, 1937  Admiral Boyton Braur  Naval Proving Grounds  Dahlgrem Virginia $38.00. The person who sold it to me lives on family land in a county ( I will have to check his letter to make sure I'm stating right county)  Prince George County, Virginia. This model was bought and built by this Naval Admiral who was his Uncle. The seller backed up everything with letters and it also came with 4 early Walthers passenger cars.                The Varney guide by Dave S on page 24 bottom right states  " The first of Varney's locomotives were announced in January 1938, in a 4 page advertising folder which said two types , one freight (2-8-0) and one passenger (4-6-2) will be offered this Spring (would be still 1938)"               How do I reconcile the difference in dates? If the admiral bought it in Jan 1937 it would have had to be made in 1936. Which would differ from the Varney book date saying made 1938 and advertisement that said announced in Jan 1938 and available in mid 1938. Do I just ignore the written notation in the box and forget about it ?  Or do I question how accurate any of the information is. Either the box or the book. Please help me solve what I feel is a discrepancy.               I notified Dave of this after he stopped the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter. His words to me were "You really found something". He worked at the Portsmoutn Naval Yard, knew of the Proving Ground mentioned and the Admirals name. I wrote this over the weekend so we can discuss this. Hope your computer will work, if not we  will talk about it when you can. This would also give you time to study the "information"                    Have a good one         Jim H   Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7404	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific

Thanks Brian,  I thought it was King George but to lazy to run down stairs and pull the letter. As for the proving ground name wasn't quit sure because of the penmanship, but the date is definitely January 6, 1937. Did you get that GG-1 yet.                                                       Jim----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific Hi Jim, It's Dahgren, with an "n" and it's in King George County, Virginia. Just thought I would throw that in since you mentioned it.   Brian L.,  Prince William, Virginia   In a message dated 9/5/2008 7:52:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Hi Ray and All,                     I'm sure the subject matter caught your eye. I need your help in trying to resolve these differences.    Last year I purchased this 090  Southern Pacific 4-6-2 Pacific with bronze boiler and V-1 motor and wood/aluminum square back tender.                  I'm showing you a picture of the engine/tender, a picture of the box and the notation in the box that might be hard to see but I will note exactly what it says here "JANUARY 6th, 1937  Admiral Boyton Braur  Naval Proving Grounds  Dahlgrem Virginia $38.00. The person who sold it to me lives on family land in a county ( I will have to check his letter to make sure I'm stating right county)  Prince George County, Virginia. This model was bought and built by this Naval Admiral who was his Uncle. The seller backed up everything with letters and it also came with 4 early Walthers passenger cars.                The Varney guide by Dave S on page 24 bottom right states  " The first of Varney's locomotives were announced in January 1938, in a 4 page advertising folder which said two types , one freight (2-8-0) and one passenger (4-6-2) will be offered this Spring (would be still 1938)"               How do I reconcile the difference in dates? If the admiral bought it in Jan 1937 it would have had to be made in 1936. Which would differ from the Varney book date saying made 1938 and advertisement that said announced in Jan 1938 and available in mid 1938. Do I just ignore the written notation in the box and forget about it ?  Or do I question how accurate any of the information is. Either the box or the book. Please help me solve what I feel is a discrepancy.               I notified Dave of this after he stopped the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter. His words to me were "You really found something". He worked at the Portsmoutn Naval Yard, knew of the Proving Ground mentioned and the Admirals name. I wrote this over the weekend so we can discuss this. Hope your computer will work, if not we  will talk about it when you can. This would also give you time to study the "information"                    Have a good one         Jim H   Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7405	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbytown RDC

Does anyone have a spare power truck for one of these RDC's? I could even use one with a bum motor. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick" <nbrownfzi@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 11:16 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown RDC > Hi Jim, > > The actual Budd RDC-1, 2, and 3 were 85 feet long and the Budd RDC-4 > was 73 feet long. That translates to 11.5 inches for the RDC-1, 2, > and 3, and 10 inches for the RDC-4. > > I think Athearn started out making an RDC-4 which is about 10 inches > long. Then they started making all their RDCs (metal and plastic) 10 > inches long. > > Nick > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: >> >> Hi Gerold, >> It's a beautiful day here in Eastern Pennsylvania USA. A > really nice string of sunny warm days and cool nights. >> Going to pass along some pictures of a Hobbytown item. > Although Hobbytown ( and of Boston) is a pretty well known vintage HO > company for their PA, E unit A&B, metal and plastic RS 2/3 ? engines > and all the Hobbytown drives over the years this a little harder to find. >> This is a Hobbytown RDC 2 and not just a Hobbytown drive. > This is a powered sheet brass shell that Hobbytown sold. It is the > only brass item that I know of that Hobbytown sold. I have a date of > 1956 - 1958. While I have seen a couple I don't think to many made. >> The pictures will show what the drive looked like. This RDC > is a little longer then Athearn RDC's. While Athearn are right around > 10" this is 11 1/2 ". Perhaps someone can tell me what scale size > should be. >> > Jim >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7406	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon

Ditto Jim....... Very Ditto !!! Please keep them coming! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 5, 2008, at 10:21 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote: I can only speak for myself (but I strongly suspect others feel the same way) - please keep it coming.  Otherwise, it's sort of like somebody being in a gold mine saying "well, there's still lots of gold here, but we've had enough".  There's never enough.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 7:08 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Barr Nixon Hi Gerold and All,           I decided to send these pictures as I saw one on Ebay a few days ago. Listed ..................snip             In 1950 this engine was bought out by Sampson most known for passenger cars but who did have some powered units. If you have had enough just say so. Still more but starting to feel I'm "hogging" the site. Let me know.                                                                   Later                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7407	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific

Hi again Jim, yes, I did. It looks like an early Tetsudo model. It has many of the same earmarks of Tetsudo, but no manufacturer markings. No information available in the Brown books or the new brass guide, but the identical model is pictured with a write up in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon (circa 1975). Somewhat of a crude model compared to models made after around 1958, but very nice all around. I think it was made around 1950-52. It runs good, but I have already disassembled it and started restoration. It should be done by next week sometime, I will send some photos if you want to see.   Brian L.   In a message dated 9/5/2008 8:14:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes: Thanks Brian,  I thought it was King George but to lazy to run down stairs and pull the letter. As for the proving ground name wasn't quit sure because of the penmanship, but the date is definitely January 6, 1937. Did you get that GG-1 yet.                                                       Jim----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific Hi Jim, It's Dahgren, with an "n" and it's in King George County, Virginia. Just thought I would throw that in since you mentioned it.   Brian L.,  Prince William, Virginia   In a message dated 9/5/2008 7:52:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Hi Ray and All,                     I'm sure the subject matter caught your eye. I need your help in trying to resolve these differences.    Last year I purchased this 090  Southern Pacific 4-6-2 Pacific with bronze boiler and V-1 motor and wood/aluminum square back tender.                  I'm showing you a picture of the engine/tender, a picture of the box and the notation in the box that might be hard to see but I will note exactly what it says here "JANUARY 6th, 1937  Admiral Boyton Braur  Naval Proving Grounds  Dahlgrem Virginia $38.00. The person who sold it to me lives on family land in a county ( I will have to check his letter to make sure I'm stating right county)  Prince George County, Virginia. This model was bought and built by this Naval Admiral who was his Uncle. The seller backed up everything with letters and it also came with 4 early Walthers passenger cars.                The Varney guide by Dave S on page 24 bottom right states  " The first of Varney's locomotives were announced in January 1938, in a 4 page advertising folder which said two types , one freight (2-8-0) and one passenger (4-6-2) will be offered this Spring (would be still 1938)"               How do I reconcile the difference in dates? If the admiral bought it in Jan 1937 it would have had to be made in 1936. Which would differ from the Varney book date saying made 1938 and advertisement that said announced in Jan 1938 and available in mid 1938. Do I just ignore the written notation in the box and forget about it ?  Or do I question how accurate any of the information is. Either the box or the book. Please help me solve what I feel is a discrepancy.               I notified Dave of this after he stopped the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter. His words to me were "You really found something". He worked at the Portsmoutn Naval Yard, knew of the Proving Ground mentioned and the Admirals name. I wrote this over the weekend so we can discuss this. Hope your computer will work, if not we  will talk about it when you can. This would also give you time to study the "information"                    Have a good one         Jim H   Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7408	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific

Brain,                      Thanks for the information. It just adds a little more to my knowledge. I would appreciate pictures very much and have to check Lenahan's Lexicon. I missed seeing it when I looked. Good luck with it.                                                                                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific Hi again Jim, yes, I did. It looks like an early Tetsudo model. It has many of the same earmarks of Tetsudo, but no manufacturer markings. No information available in the Brown books or the new brass guide, but the identical model is pictured with a write up in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon (circa 1975). Somewhat of a crude model compared to models made after around 1958, but very nice all around. I think it was made around 1950-52. It runs good, but I have already disassembled it and started restoration. It should be done by next week sometime, I will send some photos if you want to see.   Brian L.   In a message dated 9/5/2008 8:14:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Thanks Brian,  I thought it was King George but to lazy to run down stairs and pull the letter. As for the proving ground name wasn't quit sure because of the penmanship, but the date is definitely January 6, 1937. Did you get that GG-1 yet.                                                       Jim----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific Hi Jim, It's Dahgren, with an "n" and it's in King George County, Virginia. Just thought I would throw that in since you mentioned it.   Brian L.,  Prince William, Virginia   In a message dated 9/5/2008 7:52:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Hi Ray and All,                     I'm sure the subject matter caught your eye. I need your help in trying to resolve these differences.    Last year I purchased this 090  Southern Pacific 4-6-2 Pacific with bronze boiler and V-1 motor and wood/aluminum square back tender.                  I'm showing you a picture of the engine/tender, a picture of the box and the notation in the box that might be hard to see but I will note exactly what it says here "JANUARY 6th, 1937  Admiral Boyton Braur  Naval Proving Grounds  Dahlgrem Virginia $38.00. The person who sold it to me lives on family land in a county ( I will have to check his letter to make sure I'm stating right county)  Prince George County, Virginia. This model was bought and built by this Naval Admiral who was his Uncle. The seller backed up everything with letters and it also came with 4 early Walthers passenger cars.                The Varney guide by Dave S on page 24 bottom right states  " The first of Varney's locomotives were announced in January 1938, in a 4 page advertising folder which said two types , one freight (2-8-0) and one passenger (4-6-2) will be offered this Spring (would be still 1938)"               How do I reconcile the difference in dates? If the admiral bought it in Jan 1937 it would have had to be made in 1936. Which would differ from the Varney book date saying made 1938 and advertisement that said announced in Jan 1938 and available in mid 1938. Do I just ignore the written notation in the box and forget about it ?  Or do I question how accurate any of the information is. Either the box or the book. Please help me solve what I feel is a discrepancy.               I notified Dave of this after he stopped the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter. His words to me were "You really found something". He worked at the Portsmoutn Naval Yard, knew of the Proving Ground mentioned and the Admirals name. I wrote this over the weekend so we can discuss this. Hope your computer will work, if not we  will talk about it when you can. This would also give you time to study the "information"                    Have a good one         Jim H   Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7409	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/5/2008
Subject: Re: PRR GG1 Tetsudo

Attachments : Hi Jim, I changed the subject line since we strayed off the current topic, but attached are 2 scans of the pages from Lenahan's. He didn't give the model much praise at all, but he does remark that it was an un- powered model originally and someone had powered it with two Penn Line mechanisms. The model I bought is powered and the gear boxes (4 each) all match early Tetsudo, as well as, the single motor. An odd type of gearing arrangement. It has a large open frame motor mounted directly above one of the trucks (similar to early Tenshodo Diesel models), the motor shaft has a gear roughly 1/2" in diameter that drives a geared shaft in the truck. The shaft is coupled to the other truck by a small coupling. The truck shafts have two worms which mate with the two axle gears in each truck. The outer drivers are not powered.  I'll send some photos as I go.   Brian   In a message dated 9/5/2008 8:55:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes: Brain,                      Thanks for the information. It just adds a little more to my knowledge. I would appreciate pictures very much and have to check Lenahan's Lexicon. I missed seeing it when I looked. Good luck with it.                                                                                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific Hi again Jim, yes, I did. It looks like an early Tetsudo model. It has many of the same earmarks of Tetsudo, but no manufacturer markings. No information available in the Brown books or the new brass guide, but the identical model is pictured with a write up in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon (circa 1975). Somewhat of a crude model compared to models made after around 1958, but very nice all around. I think it was made around 1950-52. It runs good, but I have already disassembled it and started restoration. It should be done by next week sometime, I will send some photos if you want to see.   Brian L.   In a message dated 9/5/2008 8:14:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Thanks Brian,  I thought it was King George but to lazy to run down stairs and pull the letter. As for the proving ground name wasn't quit sure because of the penmanship, but the date is definitely January 6, 1937. Did you get that GG-1 yet.                                                       Jim----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific Hi Jim, It's Dahgren, with an "n" and it's in King George County, Virginia. Just thought I would throw that in since you mentioned it.   Brian L.,  Prince William, Virginia   In a message dated 9/5/2008 7:52:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Hi Ray and All,                     I'm sure the subject matter caught your eye. I need your help in trying to resolve these differences.    Last year I purchased this 090  Southern Pacific 4-6-2 Pacific with bronze boiler and V-1 motor and wood/aluminum square back tender.                  I'm showing you a picture of the engine/tender, a picture of the box and the notation in the box that might be hard to see but I will note exactly what it says here "JANUARY 6th, 1937  Admiral Boyton Braur  Naval Proving Grounds  Dahlgrem Virginia $38.00. The person who sold it to me lives on family land in a county ( I will have to check his letter to make sure I'm stating right county)  Prince George County, Virginia. This model was bought and built by this Naval Admiral who was his Uncle. The seller backed up everything with letters and it also came with 4 early Walthers passenger cars.                The Varney guide by Dave S on page 24 bottom right states  " The first of Varney's locomotives were announced in January 1938, in a 4 page advertising folder which said two types , one freight (2-8-0) and one passenger (4-6-2) will be offered this Spring (would be still 1938)"               How do I reconcile the difference in dates? If the admiral bought it in Jan 1937 it would have had to be made in 1936. Which would differ from the Varney book date saying made 1938 and advertisement that said announced in Jan 1938 and available in mid 1938. Do I just ignore the written notation in the box and forget about it ?  Or do I question how accurate any of the information is. Either the box or the book. Please help me solve what I feel is a discrepancy.               I notified Dave of this after he stopped the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter. His words to me were "You really found something". He worked at the Portsmoutn Naval Yard, knew of the Proving Ground mentioned and the Admirals name. I wrote this over the weekend so we can discuss this. Hope your computer will work, if not we  will talk about it when you can. This would also give you time to study the "information"                    Have a good one         Jim H   Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7410	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Super Scale

Attachments : Hi Gerold,      Sending pictures today of one of the two Super Scale engines. You already know they made passenger cars. Also in the Exacta/ Central Lines paperwork I sent you it mentions that Super Scale was tied in at the end to them.      Super Scale Models    PO Box 25  Glenview, Illinois     This is a mint kit that was never opened till I got it. I open it up to see what is inside. This was made 1948.  It is a model of     HO EMC 600 HP Diesel Switcher Kit. Price was $ 10.75. It is made of "etched copper" (frame,body) and has cast detail parts to put it together. It has no power with it. They recommend a Lindsay motor and drive. The plans even state they have included a special bracket to make it easy to use the Lindsay motor.       As I said it was a sealed mint kit. On odd thing to me was the body/superstructure is painted black already. I wonder if they painted it to prevent tarnish or corrosion.       Tomorrow I send pictures of the 1000 HP Switcher. I think the only 2 engines they made.                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7411	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: PRR GG1 Tetsudo

Brain,      Thanks for sending the scans from Lenahan's Lexicon. After you mentioned it I went back to my books and remembered the picture and story was in the front. I had looked in the listings originally.     Sounds like the drive/motor set up is unusual and maybe that GG-1 is unknown as far as information available. I know some Japanese companies would produce  basically the same engine but have different drives depending on who it was made for. See a lot of that. When I saw the bottom picture of this GG-1 I thought of IMP (International) right away because the gearing housings had their look. No matter another item saved and added information.                                         Have a good day        Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PRR GG1 Tetsudo Hi Jim, I changed the subject line since we strayed off the current topic, but attached are 2 scans of the pages from Lenahan's. He didn't give the model much praise at all, but he does remark that it was an un- powered model originally and someone had powered it with two Penn Line mechanisms. The model I bought is powered and the gear boxes (4 each) all match early Tetsudo, as well as, the single motor. An odd type of gearing arrangement. It has a large open frame motor mounted directly above one of the trucks (similar to early Tenshodo Diesel models), the motor shaft has a gear roughly 1/2" in diameter that drives a geared shaft in the truck. The shaft is coupled to the other truck by a small coupling. The truck shafts have two worms which mate with the two axle gears in each truck. The outer drivers are not powered.  I'll send some photos as I go.   Brian   In a message dated 9/5/2008 8:55:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Brain,                      Thanks for the information. It just adds a little more to my knowledge. I would appreciate pictures very much and have to check Lenahan's Lexicon. I missed seeing it when I looked. Good luck with it.                                                                                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific Hi again Jim, yes, I did. It looks like an early Tetsudo model. It has many of the same earmarks of Tetsudo, but no manufacturer markings. No information available in the Brown books or the new brass guide, but the identical model is pictured with a write up in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon (circa 1975). Somewhat of a crude model compared to models made after around 1958, but very nice all around. I think it was made around 1950-52. It runs good, but I have already disassembled it and started restoration. It should be done by next week sometime, I will send some photos if you want to see.   Brian L.   In a message dated 9/5/2008 8:14:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Thanks Brian,  I thought it was King George but to lazy to run down stairs and pull the letter. As for the proving ground name wasn't quit sure because of the penmanship, but the date is definitely January 6, 1937. Did you get that GG-1 yet.                                                       Jim----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific Hi Jim, It's Dahgren, with an "n" and it's in King George County, Virginia. Just thought I would throw that in since you mentioned it.   Brian L.,  Prince William, Virginia   In a message dated 9/5/2008 7:52:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Hi Ray and All,                     I'm sure the subject matter caught your eye. I need your help in trying to resolve these differences.    Last year I purchased this 090  Southern Pacific 4-6-2 Pacific with bronze boiler and V-1 motor and wood/aluminum square back tender.                  I'm showing you a picture of the engine/tender, a picture of the box and the notation in the box that might be hard to see but I will note exactly what it says here "JANUARY 6th, 1937  Admiral Boyton Braur  Naval Proving Grounds  Dahlgrem Virginia $38.00. The person who sold it to me lives on family land in a county ( I will have to check his letter to make sure I'm stating right county)  Prince George County, Virginia. This model was bought and built by this Naval Admiral who was his Uncle. The seller backed up everything with letters and it also came with 4 early Walthers passenger cars.                The Varney guide by Dave S on page 24 bottom right states  " The first of Varney's locomotives were announced in January 1938, in a 4 page advertising folder which said two types , one freight (2-8-0) and one passenger (4-6-2) will be offered this Spring (would be still 1938)"               How do I reconcile the difference in dates? If the admiral bought it in Jan 1937 it would have had to be made in 1936. Which would differ from the Varney book date saying made 1938 and advertisement that said announced in Jan 1938 and available in mid 1938. Do I just ignore the written notation in the box and forget about it ?  Or do I question how accurate any of the information is. Either the box or the book. Please help me solve what I feel is a discrepancy.               I notified Dave of this after he stopped the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter. His words to me were "You really found something". He worked at the Portsmoutn Naval Yard, knew of the Proving Ground mentioned and the Admirals name. I wrote this over the weekend so we can discuss this. Hope your computer will work, if not we  will talk about it when you can. This would also give you time to study the "information"                    Have a good one         Jim H   Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7412	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: computer and date problem

Hi,         Slightly off topic but because some suggestions were made to me about computer problems. My son in law here and tells me that Disc Cleaning and Disc Fragmentation would not be causing the problem I'm experiencing with no return or slow return of Emails sent to the vintage site that don't return to me as a member. Said if it sent not to worry as it went out.                On another note about the date being wrong and showing up as 2049. He said both my computer and digital camera have the dates set right and should not be my problem.         Please don't shoot the messenger. I have to rely on what I am being told. I appreciate that members took the time to try to help me.                                                                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7413	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage Again

Jim      I don't care where you borrowed the scheme from it still hits home with me. Also I am also Pro NYC but what can a person do. By the way I just got into PayPal and linked it with my bank account so maybe I won't be shut out of ebay.  Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 13:51:29 -0400 Charlie,                     I'm probably pro New York Central. I especially like the Lightning Stripe paint scheme but a nut for streamlined steam. I like the NYC Empire State Express (ESE) because of the Silver and Black paint which is where I "stole" my P C colors from.                                              Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Jim 'Dems the Cat's Meow  as I stated my dad worked for the NYC, PC, Conrail, and I think they are just Fab. Very Nice. Charlie     -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7414	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific

Attachments : Hi Jim,  Been off of the computer for a couple of days, as I've just been too busy -- got a lot of catching up to do, and a lot of replies to make, if I can find the time.  Yes the subject line did catch my eye.  While I'll be able to give you a reply, without having to worry about being cut off, with any replies I make I have to do them via my email box (not from the group site).  As a result, none of the previous poster's messages are included.  I'm trying to get around this problem by Forwarding everything back to the Group in hopes your message is also attached (let me know if it appears).  Otherwise, only my present message shows. Your message about this engine sure shows quite the discrepancy, and stirs up much interest.  I read Dave S.'s notation in full, starting on page 24 of his Guide.  For starters, we should realize that despite the care we all took that went into these books, there will always be errors.  Then too, if this bit of information was originally written by Dave (and not an addition by any one of us) as part of the manuscript, and none of us had anything to dispute it, we may well have assumed that Dave came up with something that was previously unknown to us.  Then, there is the other input that was given by many of us as additional information, after Dave finished his first draft and sent us a copy for review.  Because of time constraints, not all of the additional information was ever included in these books, and I'm talking about any of them (Varney, Athearn and Lionel H0) to which we all contributed.   Now, on the other hand, if this information were taken directly from a Varney publication, I would strongly tend to go along with it as being accurate -- and in this case it does so appear (even though Dave doesn't show a copy of this publication -- which would lend greater authority to his comments) that it came from a Varney printed flyer.  But along these same lines, it needs to be noted that at least some of the manufacturers often composed (and printed) their catalogs early, and along with them, may have started producing the items in it in their "upcoming" catalogs.  This may also be the case with Varney's flyers, possibly having been printed early, with some of their engines being released early.  I have the 1938 (and up) Varney catalog, with you engine, but it doesn't have a printing date -- just 1938 Edition. As an example, this is shown with Mantua and their catalogs, especially their pre-War issues.  I have Mantua's 1938 Catalog . . . with a copyright of 1938.  I also have the Mantua 1939 Catalog . . . with a copyright of late 1938, indicating they may have released their 1939 Catalogs in late 1938 and their new (if any) products along with them at this time.  This practice follows right through with some of the Mantua 1940, 1941 and 1942 catalogs. Walthers is another good example, and while I'm missing a few of their pre-War Catalogs, to give you a good example their 1940 Edition (even having an added price change sheet stapled to the inside front cover -- dated January 1, 1940), has an issue date of October, 1939 printed inside on the first page.  This may partially explain this discrepancy, but still . . . a difference of at least one year (Spring 1938 vs January 1937) is a long span.  Could your "note" that was found with (and I'm presuming) both the Varney engine and the 4 Walthers cars perhaps be referring only to those Walthers cars that came with the engine? Yes, I know -- Dave Spanagel worked in the Portsmouth Naval Yard.  Until only very recently, I had no idea though, where he came up with the name for his model railroad -- the "Old Point Comfort Lines."  As I've discovered, this prototype railroad existed in Virginia and was either a connecting railroad between the Portsmouth Naval Yard and the Norfolk & Western, or was the railroad operated under the U.S. Navy.  I can't seem to remember exactly which at this time, since I found this out about a year ago, but I'll have to dig that up again.  Later . . . Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7415	From: Steven Winter	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: computer and date problem

Jim,   I checked dates on downloaded photos and all dates I got were fine. None with 2049.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 12:27 PM Subject: [vintageHO] computer and date problem Hi,         Slightly off topic but because some suggestions were made to me about computer problems. My son in law here and tells me that Disc Cleaning and Disc Fragmentation would not be causing the problem I'm experiencing with no return or slow return of Emails sent to the vintage site that don't return to me as a member. Said if it sent not to worry as it went out.                On another note about the date being wrong and showing up as 2049. He said both my computer and digital camera have the dates set right and should not be my problem.         Please don't shoot the messenger. I have to rely on what I am being told. I appreciate that members took the time to try to help me.                                                                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7416	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: computer and date problem

Jim You know the Old Saying "**it happens" sometime just can not be helped. Charlie P.S.  I don't think there is going to be any shootin' here unless it would be Fire Works. CAW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] computer and date problem Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 12:27:03 -0400 Hi,         Slightly off topic but because some suggestions were made to me about computer problems. My son in law here and tells me that Disc Cleaning and Disc Fragmentation would not be causing the problem I'm experiencing with no return or slow return of Emails sent to the vintage site that don't return to me as a member. Said if it sent not to worry as it went out.                On another note about the date being wrong and showing up as 2049. He said both my computer and digital camera have the dates set right and should not be my problem.         Please don't shoot the messenger. I have to rely on what I am being told. I appreciate that members took the time to try to help me.                                                                  Jim -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7417	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Laconia

Attachments : I recall we had a discussion on Laconia not too long ago.  You may want to search the archives.  I'm unable to check the files section right now, but I thought I gave Chuck Higdon all (or at least some of) the information on them for a spread sheet to be produced.  If not, then its on the back burner just behind Ulrich (and others?), to be filed soon. I wrote a lengthy and comprehensive article on Laconia for the H0 SC&H -- SIG newsletter ("The Reporting Mark"), which Jim has just previously mentioned.  To get to your points, Laconia made a series of 42' Billboard Reefers (starting in August 1953) in 10 Road Names, each Roadname having 3 different Road Numbers. They also made 2 Box Cars (with reefer doors), 2 Milk Reefers, which you're asking about, and also the Dry Ice Car you mentioned.  This is in addition to 4 Hoppers and Gondolas, 5 Standard Box Cars, 5 Flat Cars, 7 Heavyweight Passenger Cars and 4 of the Sierra Passenger Cars (starting in February 1952), that were just discussed.  Every road name for all these cars were produced with 3 different car side numbers. Laconia did not produce an "odd" milk car, however.  I'm sure you must be thinking of Red Ball with these, which made 3 different variations of the Borden's "bathtub."  Laconia made a Rutland Reefer and a Central Vermont Reefer, in a standard 40' design.  The Dry-Ice Car was Mathieson Dry Ice, similar to Varney's yet still a bit different. The purple car you're referring to was the Chateau Martin Wine Car, which was painted that color on the prototype. The Sierra Passenger Cars included: LA-10 Combine w/o Trucks, LA-11 Combine with (T-95) Trucks, LA-12 Coach w/o Trucks and LA-13 Coach with (T-95) Trucks.  Laconia first started production in August 1940 under the name of Lockhart-Laconia and discontinued during the War.  They started up again in 1948 under the name of Laconia and continued into mid 1962, merging with Binkley in Septemer of 1953.  In November of 1955, Binkley took over Laconia but continued to produce the same Laconia kits (in different boxes) along with their Binkley kits  They (Binkley) also produced 24 different "Period" cars of the 1800's, starting with an 1850 Pay Car and 1850 Business Car, along with a Central Pacific Coach, an 1864 Pullman Palace Sleeper, a Pullman Palace Diner ("Linda") and an 1890 Royal Blue Coach.   Later . . . Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7418	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific

Hi Ray,            Thanks for the response even with your computer problem. Let me be the first (but there were others really first) to say I totally admire anyone taking on the task of trying to compile an HO history no matter what the subject. I would never try to accomplish this. My hat is truly off to all who participated. Could you imagine me proofreading text especially before my first coffee. While I say it in jest I really couldn't do what others like you have done. My hat is off to true pioneers.            I would think no book of facts is 100% and things do change. Pluto is not considered a planet anymore. I just felt this item would maybe be useful in ADDING to what is known . Not trying to destroy it.           I have scanned quickly your remarks but want to reread points and try to absorb them. What I wrote was not to discredit what has been written but some things might change. One of the biggest problems to me is to put exact dates on many items. I've even thought about saying circa 19?? to be safe but if I do that someone might have the information that pin points it even if I have to change what I believe.           I knew the name of Dave's railroad but did not know it was a real RR at one time. I only got your message. Mine was not part of it but still appreciated.                                    Thanks                       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 1:12 PM Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] 090 Varney Pacific Hi Jim,  Been off of the computer for a couple of days, as I've just been too busy -- got a lot of catching up to do, and a lot of replies to make, if I can find the time.  Yes the subject line did catch my eye.  While I'll be able to give you a reply, without having to worry about being cut off, with any replies I make I have to do them via my email box (not from the group site).  As a result, none of the previous poster's messages are included.  I'm trying to get around this problem by Forwarding everything back to the Group in hopes your message is also attached (let me know if it appears).  Otherwise, only my present message shows. Your message about this engine sure shows quite the discrepancy, and stirs up much interest.  I read Dave S.'s notation in full, starting on page 24 of his Guide.  For starters, we should realize that despite the care we all took that went into these books, there will always be errors.  Then too, if this bit of information was originally written by Dave (and not an addition by any one of us) as part of the manuscript, and none of us had anything to dispute it, we may well have assumed that Dave came up with something that was previously unknown to us.  Then, there is the other input that was given by many of us as additional information, after Dave finished his first draft and sent us a copy for review.  Because of time constraints, not all of the additional information was ever included in these books, and I'm talking about any of them (Varney, Athearn and Lionel H0) to which we all contributed.   Now, on the other hand, if this information were taken directly from a Varney publication, I would strongly tend to go along with it as being accurate -- and in this case it does so appear (even though Dave doesn't show a copy of this publication -- which would lend greater authority to his comments) that it came from a Varney printed flyer.  But along these same lines, it needs to be noted that at least some of the manufacturers often composed (and printed) their catalogs early, and along with them, may have started producing the items in it in their "upcoming" catalogs.  This may also be the case with Varney's flyers, possibly having been printed early, with some of their engines being released early.  I have the 1938 (and up) Varney catalog, with you engine, but it doesn't have a printing date -- just 1938 Edition. As an example, this is shown with Mantua and their catalogs, especially their pre-War issues.  I have Mantua's 1938 Catalog . . . with a copyright of 1938.  I also have the Mantua 1939 Catalog . . . with a copyright of late 1938, indicating they may have released their 1939 Catalogs in late 1938 and their new (if any) products along with them at this time.  This practice follows right through with some of the Mantua 1940, 1941 and 1942 catalogs. Walthers is another good example, and while I'm missing a few of their pre-War Catalogs, to give you a good example their 1940 Edition (even having an added price change sheet stapled to the inside front cover -- dated January 1, 1940), has an issue date of October, 1939 printed inside on the first page.  This may partially explain this discrepancy, but still . . . a difference of at least one year (Spring 1938 vs January 1937) is a long span.  Could your "note" that was found with (and I'm presuming) both the Varney engine and the 4 Walthers cars perhaps be referring only to those Walthers cars that came with the engine? Yes, I know -- Dave Spanagel worked in the Portsmouth Naval Yard.  Until only very recently, I had no idea though, where he came up with the name for his model railroad -- the "Old Point Comfort Lines."  As I've discovered, this prototype railroad existed in Virginia and was either a connecting railroad between the Portsmouth Naval Yard and the Norfolk & Western, or was the railroad operated under the U.S. Navy.  I can't seem to remember exactly which at this time, since I found this out about a year ago, but I'll have to dig that up again.  Later . . . Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7419	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: New to group

If you know an orthodontist, you might find that the bands they use on "braces" do a good job and are tough as nails. The trick is getting the right size. Mike Sean Naylor wrote: > > > Hello Ron, > > Let me be the first to say Welcome! > > ...as for belts, though I might have a couple for my use, I would also > like to wish you luck on that search as well... > > Sean > > --- On *Fri, 9/5/08, ron plyler /<ron_tallyho@...>/* wrote: > > From: ron plyler <ron_tallyho@...> > Subject: [vintageHO] New to group > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 8:17 AM > > Does anyone have a source on belts for Revell diesels?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7420	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: 090 Varney pacific

Hi Ray,       I have reread your response. You did ask a question I didn't answer. The note I am referring to was only written in the top lid of the Varney box  that contained the Locomotive and Tender . The note states Locomotive and Tender and the cost. Doesn't mention anything about passenger cars. The Walthers cars (Crestline Models ) came in their own boxes. Don't know if that helps much.                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7421	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Laconia

erieberk@... wrote: > > The Sierra Passenger Cars included: LA-10 Combine w/o Trucks, LA-11 > Combine with (T-95) Trucks, LA-12 Coach w/o Trucks and LA-13 Coach with > (T-95) Trucks. Laconia first started production in August 1940 under > the name of Lockhart-Laconia and discontinued during the War. They > started up again in 1948 under the name of Laconia and continued into > mid 1962, merging with Binkley in Septemer of 1953. In November of > 1955, Binkley took over Laconia but continued to produce the same > Laconia kits (in different boxes) along with their Binkley kits Ah, Binkley! Now that the name is mentioned I do think that I have at least one of these cars from both Laconia and Binkley. Not sure how many total with out digging through boxes. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "Gentlemen, gentlemen, be of good cheer, "For they are out there and we are in here." -Robert Culp

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7422	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney Pacific

Jim,  I was afraid of that -- your not receiving your original message with my post.  I really don't like sending messages like that as they can be hard to follow what is being discussed, and who or what the writer is referring to, but I have no choice.  I'll just have to remember to include some kind of a reference point in my message.  I don't like receiving these same kinds of messages either, as again they usually make no reference as to what its all about.  Well, at least I know, thanks.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7423	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: 090 Varney pacific

Jim,  So then the notation and Date (January 1937) refers to the Varney loco & tender only.  That IS a puzzle -- to which I have no further answer for.  We'll just have to be on the lookout for further authentic Varney information.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7424	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Fwd: [vintageHO] Laconia

Hi Ray, I do not think you posted the info yet for Laconia .  I will start something with the below info and we can finish it up later. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk@... Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 2:24 PM To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Fwd: [vintageHO] Laconia   I recall we had a discussion on Laconia not too long ago.  You may want to search the archives.  I'm unable to check the files section right now, but I thought I gave Chuck Higdon all (or at least some of) the information on them for a spread sheet to be produced.  If not, then its on the back burner just behind Ulrich (and others?), to be filed soon.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7425	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: computer and date problem

Hi Jim,   No, it wouldn't effect the emails going over other servers, I thought you were having other problems with your comp.........:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 12:27:03 PM Subject: [vintageHO] computer and date problem Hi,         Slightly off topic but because some suggestions were made to me about computer problems. My son in law here and tells me that Disc Cleaning and Disc Fragmentation would not be causing the problem I'm experiencing with no return or slow return of Emails sent to the vintage site that don't return to me as a member. Said if it sent not to worry as it went out.                On another note about the date being wrong and showing up as 2049. He said both my computer and digital camera have the dates set right and should not be my problem.         Please don't shoot the messenger. I have to rely on what I am being told. I appreciate that members took the time to try to help me.                                                                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7426	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Jim, Your old layout sounded great.  You're never too old to start another one, even if its an around-the-wall layout.  I think that somewhere you mentioned you were 70, but as none of us used anything close to that in the Subject line, its not easy to trace back to that to find.  You only have a year on me (maybe actually less), and I'm still working on mine.   Except for a model such as a brass Hobbytown, I would actually consider this brand vintage, but they sure do run great.  They have to be one of the best engineered mechanisms produced.  I also have some of those same ALCo PA's, but they need painting and decalling yet.  I have one pair (AA's) that I plan doing in D&H and another that will be getting the original Freedom Train treatment of 1947/48.  That train visited one of the local shortlines in this area at that time, only about 3 or 4 miles from here and the public was allowed to tour it.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7427	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Laconia

Jay, As far as I know, Rock Lane Models made only that one item.  In the Laconia line of Hoppers, they made a LA-6 Inland Steel 50 Ton Side Swing Hopper # 304 (+ 2), LA-7 Alcoa 70 Ton Quad Hopper # 809 (+ 2) and LA-8 PRR 70 Ton Quad Hopper # 179378, 179379 (+ 1).  Then they also made a LA-9 PRR 52' Mill Gondola # 344500, 344501 and 344502.  All three Car Numbers of each Road Name of their freight cars were always consecutively numbered.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7428	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Hi Jim,  Its hard for me to pin down a favorite railroad, as here in Northern New Jersey there were so many to appreciate.  The ERIE RailRoad's main line was not far from here, and an ERIE branch line went through my town, so you can guess I'm an ERIE fan.  But then too, the West Shore line of the New York Central ran only one town over (closer than the Erie's main line), so I've always been a fan of that railroad also.  There were also a number of Road's that ran a little further west of here , which also ran into Pennsylvania, like the Lehigh & Hudson River and the Lehigh & New England which could not be left out of being favorites.  I could go on about that, but I won't I would like to mention though, that the NYC's Empire State Express of the 1940's was one of my absolute favorite engines, with its stainless steel and black -- and bright red logo on the pilot.  I had to do one of my Varney streamlined Hudson's up like that.  Some hobbyists prefer the looks of the Dreyfus 20th Century Hudson, but I think this engines looks lots better by far.  I have a framed print of it hanging up in my living room, with it passing Break-Neck Mountain, where I later took many shots myself.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7429	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Attachments : ----- Original Message ----- From: <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage > Hi Jim, Its hard for me to pin down a favorite railroad, as here in > Northern > New Jersey there were so many to appreciate. The ERIE RailRoad's main > line > was not far from here, and an ERIE branch line went through my town, so > you can > guess I'm an ERIE fan. But then too, the West Shore line of the New York > Central ran only one town over (closer than the Erie's main line), so I've > always > been a fan of that railroad also. There were also a number of Road's that > ran a little further west of here , which also ran into Pennsylvania, like > the > Lehigh & Hudson River and the Lehigh & New England which could not be left > out > of being favorites. I could go on about that, but I won't > > I would like to mention though, that the NYC's Empire State Express of the > 1940's was one of my absolute favorite engines, with its stainless steel > and > black -- and bright red logo on the pilot. I had to do one of my Varney > streamlined Hudson's up like that. Some hobbyists prefer the looks of the > Dreyfus > 20th Century Hudson, but I think this engines looks lots better by far. I > have a > framed print of it hanging up in my living room, with it passing > Break-Neck > Mountain, where I later took many shots myself. Ray W. </HTML> I have to disagree. Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltics at the point of the 1938 Hiawatha hands down. As far as running vintage, this is a Hobbyline H-10-44 pulling up to an original Revel Sand & fueling station (I know these are still around in versions from Heljan and AHM, but these are originals), and the diesel house is scratch built out of matboard, does that count? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7430	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Fwd: [vintageHO] Laconia

Okay Chuck, I know we at least talked about it somewhat, but it probably got pushed onto the back-burner in favor of other manufacturers that popped up in discussions.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7431	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Sounds great Don. Roger Aultman ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage I have to disagree. Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltics at the point of the 1938 Hiawatha hands down. As far as running vintage, this is a Hobbyline H-10-44 pulling up to an original Revel Sand & fueling station (I know these are still around in versions from Heljan and AHM, but these are originals), and the diesel house is scratch built out of matboard, does that count? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7432	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Hi Don, I gather you're saying that the Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltic on the point of the Hiawatha looks better than the NYC 20th Century Hudson pulling the Limited (you might also be saying that the MILW train also beats the Empire State Express for looks?).  But besides having some of these Eastern Roads as my favorites, I'm also an SP steam fan, and I doubt there's anything that can beat the looks of an SP GS4 on the point of the Coast Daylight.  After all, it was known as the most beautiful train in the world.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7433	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon

Say Jim,  now you must know how I feel when I've gotten started into collections of vintage rolling stock and their manufacturers.  I start to feel a little uneasy, like I'm thinking other members are feeling that I'm hogging the group site.  When I see someone else such as yourself posting and discussing the models that you have though, I'm thinking that this is what its all about, and you have my vote to bring on more.  Now, if there's any indication by Chuck's, Sean's and Mike's support that most of the remaining members feel the same way, I guess you shouldn't be too concerned . . . and just maybe, neither should I if the interest remains the same when getting into the car kits.  Maybe the key is moderation, a little at a time might be appreciated more, but keep 'em comin'.   Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7434	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Hi Ray,   I was never impressed with the Daylight GS4, pretty as she is, she isn't a Santa Fe northern pulling a heavy freight over Cajon.......:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 8:07:47 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Hi Don, I gather you're saying that the Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltic on the point of the Hiawatha looks better than the NYC 20th Century Hudson pulling the Limited (you might also be saying that the MILW train also beats the Empire State Express for looks?).  But besides having some of these Eastern Roads as my favorites, I'm also an SP steam fan, and I doubt there's anything that can beat the looks of an SP GS4 on the point of the Coast Daylight.  After all, it was known as the most beautiful train in the world.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7435	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia

H'lo All! An aside, vintage, if not HO...   I found a copy of the 1919 'Car Builder's Dictionary and Cyclopedia', 1334 pp., in sad condition.   I have a conservator friend who will deacidify it and rebind it.   It lacks the title page, showing date, place of publication and publisher.   I would be grateful for publication details if anyone has this title, even more so if you would be prepared to scan the page as a .jpg or .pdf. A copy is better than no page...   Pls contact me off list - russell.shiel(at)adelaide.edu.au - if you can help.   Chrs! Russ     Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7436	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Don, No and yes. No to the Baltic's & the 38 Hi. Staying with the hometown road (the one with "Lake Tower"), I would go back just a tad. I really like the A's over the F-7's. And yes to the running vintage photo. It definitely counts. Big time! Nice shot. As an aside relating to passenger trains, overall I find it hard to beat a President class Pacific at the head of the Capital Limited. If we were to "degrade" our picks to freight, I'd again go with the B&O and their S-1a Big Sixes. Or just about any Mikado that didn't sport "flying Air Pumps". Those look great on articulated's, which are extremely impressive locomotives but do not have the same classic proportions of most Mike's, B&O's S-1a, any high-drivered Atlantic (the "A", though streamlined, far and away the best), Pennsy's G-5 & the classic B&O ten wheelers, President Pacific's or even a USRA 0-6- 0. Size isn't everything. Speaking of that, I glimpsed an end-cab U.P. switcher doing what it was designed to do on Jones Island last week. I was working at the time and couldn't get any photos. But I'll be checking on my off days. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > I have to disagree. > > Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltics at the point of the 1938 Hiawatha hands down. > > As far as running vintage, this is a Hobbyline H-10-44 pulling up to an > original Revel Sand & fueling station (I know these are still around in > versions from Heljan and AHM, but these are originals), and the diesel house > is scratch built out of matboard, does that count? > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7437	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/6/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

NYC Hudson on the Limited and the '38 Hi? Bout even, and a step behind the "35 Hi which is a tad behind the Capitol Limited. Then you gets the streamlined "400", "Super Chief", the "City" liners and maybe then the Daylights. I always admired the SP premier trains but thought them just a tad over rated. But I'd love to see any of them still running today, even if it would mean having E's on the point instead of steam. Oh yeah, just to point up another of my idiosyncrasies, I consider E units to be better looking than PA's, especially the E-6 and earlier. And I am a confirmed ALCO-holic. But looks is looks. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote: > > Hi Don, I gather you're saying that the Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltic on the > point of the Hiawatha looks better than the NYC 20th Century Hudson pulling the > Limited (you might also be saying that the MILW train also beats the Empire > State Express for looks?). But besides having some of these Eastern Roads as my > favorites, I'm also an SP steam fan, and I doubt there's anything that can beat > the looks of an SP GS4 on the point of the Coast Daylight. After all, it was > known as the most beautiful train in the world. Ray </HTML> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7438	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia

It would probably be better to scan it prior to re-binding. If I were to attempt to scan something like 1334 pages, you wouldn't see the finished product before the end of the next decade - you need an "industrial strength" scanner for something like that. Mike Russ Shiel wrote: > > > H'lo All! An aside, vintage, if not HO... > > I found a copy of the 1919 'Car Builder's Dictionary and Cyclopedia', > 1334 pp., in sad condition. > > I have a conservator friend who will deacidify it and rebind it. > > It lacks the title page, showing date, place of publication and publisher. > > I would be grateful for publication details if anyone has this title, > even more so if you would be prepared to scan the page as a .jpg or > .pdf. A copy is better than no page... > > Pls contact me off list - russell.shiel(at)adelaide.edu.au - if you can > help. > > Chrs! Russ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7439	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia

I think what he's asking for is if anyone has access to a copy, he needs a scan of just the title page, since it's missing from his copy. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 5:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia > It would probably be better to scan it prior to re-binding. If I were to > attempt to scan something like 1334 pages, you wouldn't see the finished > product before the end of the next decade - you need an "industrial > strength" scanner for something like that. > > Mike > > Russ Shiel wrote: >> >> >> H'lo All! An aside, vintage, if not HO... >> >> I found a copy of the 1919 'Car Builder's Dictionary and Cyclopedia', >> 1334 pp., in sad condition. >> >> I have a conservator friend who will deacidify it and rebind it. >> >> It lacks the title page, showing date, place of publication and >> publisher. >> >> I would be grateful for publication details if anyone has this title, >> even more so if you would be prepared to scan the page as a .jpg or >> .pdf. A copy is better than no page... >> >> Pls contact me off list - russell.shiel(at)adelaide.edu.au - if you can >> help. >> >> Chrs! Russ >> > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7440	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Hi Ray,                You're making me just a little older then I am. Next month 64. I have just lost all interest in building a new layout. I have 6' of straight test track and that will probably be it. When I had my layout it was my way of relaxing after a day at work. I would get lost in doing things. Being tight on cash I came up with some very unique ways of doing things, but I can sit back, watch my tape and be proud of what I did accomplish. And double proud because I did it all myself. I had no other train fans and you couldn't say you liked trains because people just reacted funny. The remark of "playing with toys" got to me. My layout and the collection had only been seen by maybe 10 people other then those seeing the video. It did hurt to leave the layout. If I had money I would have opened a wall in my old house and taken the layout out in one piece.                  Time for breakfast. Can't miss that.       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Jim, Your old layout sounded great.  You're never too old to start another one, even if its an around-the-wall layout.  I think that somewhere you mentioned you were 70, but as none of us used anything close to that in the Subject line, its not easy to trace back to that to find.  You only have a year on me (maybe actually less), and I'm still working on mine.   Except for a model such as a brass Hobbytown, I would actually consider this brand vintage, but they sure do run great.  They have to be one of the best engineered mechanisms produced.  I also have some of those same ALCo PA's, but they need painting and decalling yet.  I have one pair (AA's) that I plan doing in D&H and another that will be getting the original Freedom Train treatment of 1947/48.  That train visited one of the local shortlines in this area at that time, only about 3 or 4 miles from here and the public was allowed to tour it.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7441	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: More Pics

Don,           The picture you sent from your layout great. Good to see those older items in use. I would like to view more.            Have to add to what engines people like.  While I used the NYC / ESE colors for my layout my favorite is the Lehigh Valley  Streamlined K-4 "John Wilkes".    While I live around where the Lehigh Valley ran I never saw this engine up close and personal. I think the black and red paint scheme with the white lettering and strips is very eye catching along with the streamlining. The passenger cars it pulled in the same scheme pretty sharp too.      I owned a factory painted Overland model for years and just really liked the look. everybody is going to have favorites but I think streamlined steam, no matter what road, are sharp.                                                                                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7442	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia

That is what I thought I read as well..   Sean --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 8:18 AM I think what he's asking for is if anyone has access to a copy, he needs a scan of just the title page, since it's missing from his copy. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@verizon. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 5:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia > It would probably be better to scan it prior to re-binding. If I were to > attempt to scan something like 1334 pages, you wouldn't see the finished > product before the end of the next decade - you need an "industrial > strength" scanner for something like that. > > Mike > > Russ Shiel wrote: >> >> >> H'lo All! An aside, vintage, if not HO... >> >> I found a copy of the 1919 'Car Builder's Dictionary and Cyclopedia', >> 1334 pp., in sad condition. >> >> I have a conservator friend who will deacidify it and rebind it. >> >> It lacks the title page, showing date, place of publication and >> publisher. >> >> I would be grateful for publication details if anyone has this title, >> even more so if you would be prepared to scan the page as a .jpg or >> .pdf. A copy is better than no page... >> >> Pls contact me off list - russell.shiel( at)adelaide. edu.au - if you can >> help. >> >> Chrs! Russ >> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7443	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

I'll take the NYO&W Y Class 4-8-2 Mountaineer by Otto Kuhler anytime over the SP GS4, but my top picks are the Dreyfus Hudson and the B&O Royal Blue #5304. I had to bring up the O&W loco because it is too easily overlooked. The "bathtub" streamlining does not appeal to me, but as the saying goes, de gustibus non est disputandum, you can't argue matters of personal taste. Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > NYC Hudson on the Limited and the '38 Hi? Bout even, and a step behind > the "35 Hi which is a tad behind the Capitol Limited. Then you gets the > streamlined "400", "Super Chief", the "City" liners and maybe then the > Daylights. I always admired the SP premier trains but thought them just > a tad over rated. > > But I'd love to see any of them still running today, even if it would > mean having E's on the point instead of steam. Oh yeah, just to point > up another of my idiosyncrasies, I consider E units to be better > looking than PA's, especially the E-6 and earlier. And I am a confirmed > ALCO-holic. But looks is looks. > > John Hagen > St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: > > > > Hi Don, I gather you're saying that the Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltic on > the > > point of the Hiawatha looks better than the NYC 20th Century Hudson > pulling the > > Limited (you might also be saying that the MILW train also beats the > Empire > > State Express for looks?). But besides having some of these Eastern > Roads as my > > favorites, I'm also an SP steam fan, and I doubt there's anything > that can beat > > the looks of an SP GS4 on the point of the Coast Daylight. After > all, it was > > known as the most beautiful train in the world. Ray </HTML> > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7444	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia

Lucky find.  I've been looking for one of those--anywhere from 1918 to 1925--  even a a reprint.  There have been reprints of the loco cyc's but only the 1940 car builders'   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 7:05 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia That is what I thought I read as well..   Sean --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 8:18 AM I think what he's asking for is if anyone has access to a copy, he needs a scan of just the title page, since it's missing from his copy. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@verizon. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 5:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia > It would probably be better to scan it prior to re-binding. If I were to > attempt to scan something like 1334 pages, you wouldn't see the finished > product before the end of the next decade - you need an "industrial > strength" scanner for something like that. > > Mike > > Russ Shiel wrote: >> >> >> H'lo All! An aside, vintage, if not HO... >> >> I found a copy of the 1919 'Car Builder's Dictionary and Cyclopedia', >> 1334 pp., in sad condition. >> >> I have a conservator friend who will deacidify it and rebind it. >> >> It lacks the title page, showing date, place of publication and >> publisher. >> >> I would be grateful for publication details if anyone has this title, >> even more so if you would be prepared to scan the page as a .jpg or >> .pdf. A copy is better than no page... >> >> Pls contact me off list - russell.shiel( at)adelaide. edu.au - if you can >> help. >> >> Chrs! Russ >> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7445	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

A word in defense of the SP GS's--the streamlining was not overdone--they still had the look of a steam loco. I grew up with them--even the same age--I saw them almost daily. All the basics were visible--the smokebox , the cylinders, the rods were visible. Nobody was trying to make them look like a diesel. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 7:35 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > I'll take the NYO&W Y Class 4-8-2 Mountaineer by Otto Kuhler anytime > over the SP GS4, but my top picks are the Dreyfus Hudson and the B&O > Royal Blue #5304. I had to bring up the O&W loco because it is too > easily overlooked. The "bathtub" streamlining does not appeal to me, > but as the saying goes, de gustibus non est disputandum, you can't > argue matters of personal taste. > Walter > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: >> >> NYC Hudson on the Limited and the '38 Hi? Bout even, and a step behind >> the "35 Hi which is a tad behind the Capitol Limited. Then you gets the >> streamlined "400", "Super Chief", the "City" liners and maybe then the >> Daylights. I always admired the SP premier trains but thought them just >> a tad over rated. >> >> But I'd love to see any of them still running today, even if it would >> mean having E's on the point instead of steam. Oh yeah, just to point >> up another of my idiosyncrasies, I consider E units to be better >> looking than PA's, especially the E-6 and earlier. And I am a confirmed >> ALCO-holic. But looks is looks. >> >> John Hagen >> St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: >> > >> > Hi Don, I gather you're saying that the Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltic on >> the >> > point of the Hiawatha looks better than the NYC 20th Century Hudson >> pulling the >> > Limited (you might also be saying that the MILW train also beats the >> Empire >> > State Express for looks?). But besides having some of these Eastern >> Roads as my >> > favorites, I'm also an SP steam fan, and I doubt there's anything >> that can beat >> > the looks of an SP GS4 on the point of the Coast Daylight. After >> all, it was >> > known as the most beautiful train in the world. Ray </HTML> >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7446	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Gary Woodard wrote: > Hi Ray, > > I was never impressed with the Daylight GS4, pretty as she is, she isn't > a Santa Fe northern pulling a heavy freight over Cajon.......:o) Or a Big Boy pulling a reefer block over Sherman Hill. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "The Baghdad communiques are belated, insincere, incomplete. Things are far worse than we have been told... We are today not far short of a disaster." - T.E. Lawrence, describing British occupation of Iraq, 1920.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7447	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: 2nd Super Scale

Attachments : Hi Gerold,    This should be short. Second Super Scale engine I have.  They say NW-2  Same year as other. Same "etched copper'" construction with Lindsay drive that you have to purchase. Only 2 engines I know made by Super Scale. I have no paperwork for this.                                                                                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7448	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Jim, I don't know where I got 70 years old from -- I obviously misread something.  Will you be scenicking your test track <g>?  That 4-track main you had sounded great.  One set of plans I drew up for my attic had a 4-track main in one section -- but I opted for a spare bedroom to build a layout instead.  Way too much stuff to have to move in the attic, if I were to buld there.  Out of curiousity, about how long is the tape?  At least you can still do back-up moves and high speed running (lol).  Take care,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7449	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

It's interesting how everyone has a different opinion about the "best looking" train and/or locomotive. I think most of it boils down to childhood memories. I personally prefer a high drivered Missouri Pacific 5321 class Mountain pulling a string of blue and grey heavyweights. To quote noted railroad author Joe Collias, they were "the fastest Mountain types ever built in North America". Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: > Or a Big Boy pulling a reefer block over Sherman Hill. > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7450	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale

Attachments : This is my only example of Super Scale, a NW booster.  It has bolsters but no power.   Roger Aultman     ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 11:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Hi Gerold,    This should be short. Second Super Scale engine I have.  They say NW-2  Same year as other. Same "etched copper'" construction with Lindsay drive that you have to purchase. Only 2 engines I know made by Super Scale. I have no paperwork for this.                                                                                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7451	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Walter, I understand about personal taste, but what the heck does that Greek phrase mean? John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: > > I'll take the NYO&W Y Class 4-8-2 Mountaineer by Otto Kuhler anytime > over the SP GS4, but my top picks are the Dreyfus Hudson and the B&O > Royal Blue #5304. I had to bring up the O&W loco because it is too > easily overlooked. The "bathtub" streamlining does not appeal to me, > but as the saying goes, de gustibus non est disputandum, you can't > argue matters of personal taste. > Walter >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7452	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Ray,            I feel a lot older. I will ballast my test track too.     When I built my layout I had no contact with other modelers. This was in 1966 when we bought our first house. I had been collecting anything HO up to that time. Our first house actually had 6 bedrooms besides 3 floors and a basement. Lots of room. I took the largest bedroom on the third floor for my train room. I had my work bench in the basement. First thing I should have done is put an elevator in. (That's why we got the new rancher now). After work and on weekends I started to redo the home.I changed a lot of doors and large amounts of trim molding,new stairway , new paneling, etc. With all the remodeling I had lots of "used' lumber. That was the start of the layout. Wooden frame work with a masonite paneling top. I started to lay track, make grades all with out any plan nor help. I was a rank beginner. I just stared doing it. It came out that there were 4 mainline tracks with sidings but joined and wired that I could run 4 trains each on a separate main line but crossover connections that I could go from 1 main line to another, although I didn't have it 'block wired' (didn't even know what that was) and could not run 2 trains on same mainline. This didn't bother me as I liked to run and watch the trains on the main lines. I wasn't into switching even though I could do it. I liked seeing them go through the scenery.           Not having the biggest train budget I had to improvise to save. A lot of people might laugh at some things I did but would have to see the tape to view the final product. I actually crushed my own ballast from a dried bag of cement. Sat hitting it with a hammer and straining it to size. My mountains were made with heavy cardboard supports for shape, covered with a white material and stapled in place. Then a couple of coats of box glue gave it a hard shell. I added a coat of a brown printing ink that had a slight touch of red in it. (I think I better say here not printers ink like newspaper or cardboard . I worked for Purolator filter division and we "printed" on the can type filters) Then made Hydrocal rocks, mountains,cuts. I sculpted them as they were drying. I then applied  very thinned colors of black ,gray and brown. It went in the cut cracks and even though a reverse type effect gave depth and color to the "rock".I kind of keep it toned down to match rock in upper New York where I would fish, except where I would have my mine, colliery.slush dam, etc. This was a lot darker even black.         I then started to make scenery. I chopped up foam (in my wife's blender) and dyed it all different colors with permanent printing inks from work just like Woodland scenic material which I couldn't purchase at that time. I started making hundreds of trees using tooth picks glued together depending on the type of tree (white birch, maple. and others I would drill holes in the main trunks and glue in straight pins. I would paint each tree depending on type. White birch, white with black marks, really came out nice. Different colors of brown to match others. It was at that time I started to buy the different green colors of Woodland Scenic material , both clumps and the stretch stuff and using my trunks made a LOT of trees. I also had other trees from other companies plus some lager sizes from Woodland scenic to create a forest of trees. Along with ground foam and some stretch material for vines, undergrowth a pretty nice look.         I'm going to end this and continue a second part . I'm afraid of losing this. Hope this is not considered off topic.                                                                               Jim                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Jim, I don't know where I got 70 years old from -- I obviously misread something.  Will you be scenicking your test track <g>?  That 4-track main you had sounded great.  One set of plans I drew up for my attic had a 4-track main in one section -- but I opted for a spare bedroom to build a layout instead.  Way too much stuff to have to move in the attic, if I were to buld there.  Out of curiousity, about how long is the tape?  At least you can still do back-up moves and high speed running (lol).  Take care,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7453	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Glenn, No one has to defend the design of the GS series. They were quite nice looking for a streamlined steamer, more like semi-streamlined in my opinion. I really like them in black. I feel that the color scheme of orange, orange, red and more orange was a mite bit on the gaudy side. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > A word in defense of the SP GS's--the streamlining was not overdone- -they > still had the look of a steam loco. I grew up with them--even the same > age--I saw them almost daily. All the basics were visible--the smokebox , > the cylinders, the rods were visible. Nobody was trying to make them look > like a diesel. gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7454	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale

If those plans for the NW-2 1000 HP switcher I don't even have those plans. Yes you had to buy your own power/drive.                                                                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale This is my only example of Super Scale, a NW booster.  It has bolsters but no power.   Roger Aultman     ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 11:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Hi Gerold,    This should be short. Second Super Scale engine I have.  They say NW-2  Same year as other. Same "etched copper'" construction with Lindsay drive that you have to purchase. Only 2 engines I know made by Super Scale. I have no paperwork for this.                                                                                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7455	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Sounds like running vintage to me. Back in them days we used whatever was available. There just wasn't a "great method " that everyone used. Now it seems to be off the shelf products. That's ok but I liked the ways modelers would conquer their individual challenges back then. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Ray, > I feel a lot older. I will ballast my test track too. When I built my layout I had no contact with other modelers. This was in 1966 when we bought our first house. I had been collecting anything HO up to that time. Our first house actually had 6 bedrooms besides 3 floors and a basement. Lots of room. I took the largest bedroom on the third floor for my train room. I had my work bench in the basement. First thing I should have done is put an elevator in. (That's why we got the new rancher now). After work and on weekends I started to redo the home.I changed a lot of doors and large amounts of trim molding,new stairway , new paneling, etc. With all the remodeling I had lots of "used' lumber. That was the start of the layout. Wooden frame work with a masonite paneling top. I started to lay track, make grades all with out any plan nor help. I was a rank beginner. I just stared doing it. It came out that there were 4 mainline tracks with sidings but joined and wired that I could run 4 trains each on a separate main line but crossover connections that I could go from 1 main line to another, although I didn't have it 'block wired' (didn't even know what that was) and could not run 2 trains on same mainline. This didn't bother me as I liked to run and watch the trains on the main lines. I wasn't into switching even though I could do it. I liked seeing them go through the scenery. > Not having the biggest train budget I had to improvise to save. A lot of people might laugh at some things I did but would have to see the tape to view the final product. I actually crushed my own ballast from a dried bag of cement. Sat hitting it with a hammer and straining it to size. My mountains were made with heavy cardboard supports for shape, covered with a white material and stapled in place. Then a couple of coats of box glue gave it a hard shell. I added a coat of a brown printing ink that had a slight touch of red in it. (I think I better say here not printers ink like newspaper or cardboard . I worked for Purolator filter division and we "printed" on the can type filters) Then made Hydrocal rocks, mountains,cuts. I sculpted them as they were drying. I then applied very thinned colors of black ,gray and brown. It went in the cut cracks and even though a reverse type effect gave depth and color to the "rock".I kind of keep it toned down to match rock in upper New York where I would fish, except where I would have my mine, colliery.slush dam, etc. This was a lot darker even black. > I then started to make scenery. I chopped up foam (in my wife's blender) and dyed it all different colors with permanent printing inks from work just like Woodland scenic material which I couldn't purchase at that time. I started making hundreds of trees using tooth picks glued together depending on the type of tree (white birch, maple. and others I would drill holes in the main trunks and glue in straight pins. I would paint each tree depending on type. White birch, white with black marks, really came out nice. Different colors of brown to match others. It was at that time I started to buy the different green colors of Woodland Scenic material , both clumps and the stretch stuff and using my trunks made a LOT of trees. I also had other trees from other companies plus some lager sizes from Woodland scenic to create a forest of trees. Along with ground foam and some stretch material for vines, undergrowth a pretty nice look. > I'm going to end this and continue a second part . I'm afraid of losing this. Hope this is not considered off topic. > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: erieberk@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:53 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage > > > Jim, I don't know where I got 70 years old from -- I obviously misread something. Will you be scenicking your test track <g>? That 4-track main you had sounded great. One set of plans I drew up for my attic had a 4-track main in one section -- but I opted for a spare bedroom to build a layout instead. Way too much stuff to have to move in the attic, if I were to buld there. Out of curiousity, about how long is the tape? At least you can still do back-up moves and high speed running (lol). Take care, Ray >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7456	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Ray Although I will fight to the bitter end about NYC (anything). I must agree about the GS4 From SP  they are beautiful. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:07:47 EDT Hi Don, I gather you're saying that the Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltic on the point of the Hiawatha looks better than the NYC 20th Century Hudson pulling the Limited (you might also be saying that the MILW train also beats the Empire State Express for looks?).  But besides having some of these Eastern Roads as my favorites, I'm also an SP steam fan, and I doubt there's anything that can beat the looks of an SP GS4 on the point of the Coast Daylight.  After all, it was known as the most beautiful train in the world.  Ray -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7457	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Glenn BITE YOUR TONGUE, I don't think any of the Rail Roads were trying to make them look like they were Diesels just trying to make them more appealing to all. Myself they could habe been just rods and boiler tube and they would still been beautiful to me. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 07:56:02 -0700 > > > A word in defense of the SP GS's--the streamlining was not overdone--they > still had the look of a steam loco. I grew up with them--even the same > age--I saw them almost daily. All the basics were visible--the smokebox , > the cylinders, the rods were visible. Nobody was trying to make them look > like a diesel. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 7:35 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > > > > I'll take the NYO&W Y Class 4-8-2 Mountaineer by Otto Kuhler anytime > > over the SP GS4, but my top picks are the Dreyfus Hudson and the B&O > > Royal Blue #5304. I had to bring up the O&W loco because it is too > > easily overlooked. The "bathtub" streamlining does not appeal to me, > > but as the saying goes, de gustibus non est disputandum, you can't > > argue matters of personal taste. > > Walter > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > >> > >> NYC Hudson on the Limited and the '38 Hi? Bout even, and a step behind > >> the "35 Hi which is a tad behind the Capitol Limited. Then you gets the > >> streamlined "400", "Super Chief", the "City" liners and maybe then the > >> Daylights. I always admired the SP premier trains but thought them just > >> a tad over rated. > >> > >> But I'd love to see any of them still running today, even if it would > >> mean having E's on the point instead of steam. Oh yeah, just to point > >> up another of my idiosyncrasies, I consider E units to be better > >> looking than PA's, especially the E-6 and earlier. And I am a confirmed > >> ALCO-holic. But looks is looks. > >> > >> John Hagen > >> St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > >> > >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Don, I gather you're saying that the Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltic on > >> the > >> > point of the Hiawatha looks better than the NYC 20th Century Hudson > >> pulling the > >> > Limited (you might also be saying that the MILW train also beats the > >> Empire > >> > State Express for looks?). But besides having some of these Eastern > >> Roads as my > >> > favorites, I'm also an SP steam fan, and I doubt there's anything > >> that can beat > >> > the looks of an SP GS4 on the point of the Coast Daylight. After > >> all, it was > >> > known as the most beautiful train in the world. Ray </HTML> > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7458	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage Part 2

Hi Ray,    Part 2. My one typing finger getting tired so I have to finish this. Continuing on I built most of my buildings from available plastic kits. I did some of my own for special purposes like create a 2 track coal tipple. I painted all my own people. I took the outer screen used for  car air filters and with brads made chain link fence which looked good. I had all my RR crossings,roads and such and added some vehicles. Overall look to me very good. I liked to run the 4 trains , sit back on a chair and watch.     There were other things done cheaply but getting a little long. One good thing is I could run steam or run diesel or both and since it was the time of Penn Central and Conrail I could also run Pennsy, Reading, Erie Lackawanna, NYC, Lehigh Valley, etc.     The tape I have was for insurance purposes. It spans a number of years. You can see my collection change from collecting all to just vintage items. Same with the layout. You will see it being completed and different trains running . I would be willing to send you the VCR tape (I have a backup). The last update of the layout is probably 10 minutes but I panned around to everything and from different angles.       You will have to send me an address. I'm busy Monday but could get it out to you after. I don't mind it being passed around but I can only afford the first postage. After that each would have to pay to the next that might want to view.        My finger just fell off. I quite.                                                          Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Jim, I don't know where I got 70 years old from -- I obviously misread something.  Will you be scenicking your test track <g>?  That 4-track main you had sounded great.  One set of plans I drew up for my attic had a 4-track main in one section -- but I opted for a spare bedroom to build a layout instead.  Way too much stuff to have to move in the attic, if I were to buld there.  Out of curiousity, about how long is the tape?  At least you can still do back-up moves and high speed running (lol).  Take care,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7459	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Fw: [oscaletrains] Link

I'm forwarding this one from a friend on another group, enjoy the pix in the link....:o)   Gary W   ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Rick <oscaletrains@...> To: oscaletrains@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 1:35:27 PM Subject: [oscaletrains] Link I have seen some awesome O Scale modeling in styrene and other plastics before, but this beats them all... http://www.gnflyer. com/Friendsbarry .html

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7460	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

It is Latin, and, roughly translated, it means "there is no point in arguing over matters of taste" or, in this case "personal preference/opinion". It falls under the same category as which beer brand is better than some other - purely a subjective argument that nobody can win. Mike John Hagen wrote: > > > Walter, > > I understand about personal taste, but what the heck does that Greek > phrase mean? > > John Hagen > St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, > "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> > wrote: > > > > I'll take the NYO&W Y Class 4-8-2 Mountaineer by Otto Kuhler anytime > > over the SP GS4, but my top picks are the Dreyfus Hudson and the B&O > > Royal Blue #5304. I had to bring up the O&W loco because it is too > > easily overlooked. The "bathtub" streamlining does not appeal to me, > > but as the saying goes, de gustibus non est disputandum, you can't > > argue matters of personal taste. > > Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7461	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: New One GHC 2nd type 0-4-0 Camelback

Attachments : Hi Gerold and All,         Have to back track to the other day when I was talking about New One and the different engines they made. I sent pictures of the 2 types of 0-4-0 Camelbacks sold by General Hobbies Co. After sending the pictures I was putting the engines back and discovered the tender on the one was brass. Since I was only talking about cast,sumac, steam New One I had to  'go back to the drawing board" about it. Well today that drawing boaed hit me in the head, literally.         While searching for something else this box fell and hit me in the head. The picture I just sent will show you the front of this box. When I originally got this engine I put it in with other New One and felt there were two types made. In the back of my mind I knew I had seen the picture of this Pennsylvania engine some where that led me to first believe my original assumption. Now this box proves I'm not crazy (YET).        This is the 2nd type 0-4-0 Camelback engine. It came in the same type and colored box as other New One GHC cast,zamac,steam but this box lacks lettering for GHC. The end says Mother Hubbard Pennsylvania but other then saying HO Scale Locomotive and assembled ready to run no mention of GHC.          So I am half right. I knew the engine existed but since it has a brass tender can't be included in with GHC yet and what was being talked about. Now I have to follow this up. My first thought is it could be that GHC going out of business (before becoming AHM) and using things up. That could be why zamac engine and brass tender. Very interesting                                                           Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7462	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Years ago, I heard the hobby redefined in technical terms......... I've since expanded it a mite...... ..............I AM EXPLORING 'FLANGED-WHEEL, RIGID-PATH, MASS TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS USING ELECTRO-MAGNETIC PROPULSION ON A MICRO-COSMIC BASIC'............ Yup....... that's a technical assessment of any 'model railroad' ............. 8^) Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 7, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Ray,                You're making me just a little older then I am. Next month 64. I have just lost all interest in building a new layout. I have 6' of straight test track and that will probably be it. When I had my layout it was my way of relaxing after a day at work. I would get lost in doing things. Being tight on cash I came up with some very unique ways of doing things, but I can sit back, watch my tape and be proud of what I did accomplish. And double proud because I did it all myself. I had no other train fans and you couldn't say you liked trains because people just reacted funny. The remark of "playing with toys" got to me. My layout and the collection had only been seen by maybe 10 people other then those seeing the video. It did hurt to leave the layout. If I had money I would have opened a wall in my old house and taken the layout out in one piece.                  Time for breakfast. Can't miss that.       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Jim, Your old layout sounded great.  You're never too old to start another one, even if its an around-the-wall layout.  I think that somewhere you mentioned you were 70, but as none of us used anything close to that in the Subject line, its not easy to trace back to that to find.  You only have a year on me (maybe actually less), and I'm still working on mine.   Except for a model such as a brass Hobbytown, I would actually consider this brand vintage, but they sure do run great.  They have to be one of the best engineered mechanisms produced.  I also have some of those same ALCo PA's, but they need painting and decalling yet.  I have one pair (AA's) that I plan doing in D&H and another that will be getting the original Freedom Train treatment of 1947/48.  That train visited one of the local shortlines in this area at that time, only about 3 or 4 miles from here and the public was allowed to tour it.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7463	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

When you mix all the prevailing styles of streamlined steamers you wind up with.......... The C&O's Crusader with its mix of bright colors and gleaming fluted stainless steel......... http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_co490.jpg http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/co490a.jpg from........ the streamliner page..... http://www.northeast.railfan.net/steam17.html Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 7, 2008, at 9:35 AM, Walter J. Bayer II wrote: > I'll take the NYO&W Y Class 4-8-2 Mountaineer by Otto Kuhler anytime > over the SP GS4, but my top picks are the Dreyfus Hudson and the B&O > Royal Blue #5304. I had to bring up the O&W loco because it is too > easily overlooked. The "bathtub" streamlining does not appeal to me, > but as the saying goes, de gustibus non est disputandum, you can't > argue matters of personal taste. > Walter > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: >> >> NYC Hudson on the Limited and the '38 Hi? Bout even, and a step >> behind >> the "35 Hi which is a tad behind the Capitol Limited. Then you gets >> the >> streamlined "400", "Super Chief", the "City" liners and maybe then >> the >> Daylights. I always admired the SP premier trains but thought them >> just >> a tad over rated. >> >> But I'd love to see any of them still running today, even if it would >> mean having E's on the point instead of steam. Oh yeah, just to point >> up another of my idiosyncrasies, I consider E units to be better >> looking than PA's, especially the E-6 and earlier. And I am a >> confirmed >> ALCO-holic. But looks is looks. >> >> John Hagen >> St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI >> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: >>> >>> Hi Don, I gather you're saying that the Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltic on >> the >>> point of the Hiawatha looks better than the NYC 20th Century Hudson >> pulling the >>> Limited (you might also be saying that the MILW train also beats the >> Empire >>> State Express for looks?). But besides having some of these Eastern >> Roads as my >>> favorites, I'm also an SP steam fan, and I doubt there's anything >> that can beat >>> the looks of an SP GS4 on the point of the Coast Daylight. After >> all, it was >>> known as the most beautiful train in the world. Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7464	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia

I believe that I have an original copy in my library, but I cannot access it until October. A suggestion for a quicker, probably more professional copy of the page(s) that you want would be to direct an inquiry to the Librarian at the California State Railroad Museum, Cara Randall at <crandall@... >. They have "sacrificial" oriiginal copies of most of the Cyclopedias that they are usually willing to copy, scan or photocopy. They have an international clientele, so I would doubt that they would be alarmed from someone below the equator. The 1919 edition would be quite valuable. Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7465	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale

Attachments : Hello Jim   Here are scans of the Super Scale switcher instructions, they are longer than my old flatbed so they are in two parts. The stacks and bell were missing from the kit, looks like it could build into a usable model with a bit of work. Roger        ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale      If those plans for the NW-2 1000 HP switcher I don't even have those plans. Yes you had to buy your own power/drive.                                                                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale This is my only example of Super Scale, a NW booster.  It has bolsters but no power.   Roger Aultman     ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 11:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Hi Gerold,    This should be short. Second Super Scale engine I have.  They say NW-2  Same year as other. Same "etched copper'" construction with Lindsay drive that you have to purchase. Only 2 engines I know made by Super Scale. I have no paperwork for this.                                                                                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7466	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia

Thanks Denny (and others who responded!)...good lead, and very useful to know! I will contact Ms Randall.    Remarkable source of information, vintageHO!...I mostly lurk, but avidly read each day before shackling myself to a microscope...   Russ in Adelaide, where Spring has Sprung...!         Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7467	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale

Roger,                        Really appreciate you sending the scanned copies of the plans for the Super Scale 1000 HP Switcher. They printed out really nice. I think I'll have to look into a scanner. I can only send digital camera pictures.              The bell  is the 3 piece bell like Mantua and others. You can get from Yardbird Train if you would want. The stacks were just a metal casting which I would think you could match up with some company producing parts. Of course that is if you intend to build. It's a nice kit. Building or keeping it a kit a personal decision. My copy of this engine was pre built but I had to add hand railing without having plans. I see it should have been a little different. another thing I like about the plans is it shows a cow and calf arrangement. I have to look at my engine to see if the calf could be made from it or was it a separate kit with a body minus cab already made.                   Again Thanks. these plans help me.                                                                                  Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Hello Jim   Here are scans of the Super Scale switcher instructions, they are longer than my old flatbed so they are in two parts. The stacks and bell were missing from the kit, looks like it could build into a usable model with a bit of work. Roger        ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale      If those plans for the NW-2 1000 HP switcher I don't even have those plans. Yes you had to buy your own power/drive.                                                                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale This is my only example of Super Scale, a NW booster.  It has bolsters but no power.   Roger Aultman     ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 11:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Hi Gerold,    This should be short. Second Super Scale engine I have.  They say NW-2  Same year as other. Same "etched copper'" construction with Lindsay drive that you have to purchase. Only 2 engines I know made by Super Scale. I have no paperwork for this.                                                                                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7468	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Attachments : ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > When you mix all the prevailing styles of streamlined steamers you > wind up with.......... > > The C&O's Crusader with its mix of bright colors and gleaming fluted > stainless steel......... > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_co490.jpg > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/co490a.jpg > > from........ the streamliner page..... > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/steam17.html > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi Funny you should mention that. Here's a shot of your friendly listowner/moderator's ugly mug taken about 30 seconds ago. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7469	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale

Roger,           After looking closely at the plans you sent it shows that there was a completely different kit and part numbers for a calf (B unit no cab).     Now I can be watching for it. I would not have known about it if you didn't send the plans                                                                                          Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Hello Jim   Here are scans of the Super Scale switcher instructions, they are longer than my old flatbed so they are in two parts. The stacks and bell were missing from the kit, looks like it could build into a usable model with a bit of work. Roger        ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale      If those plans for the NW-2 1000 HP switcher I don't even have those plans. Yes you had to buy your own power/drive.                                                                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale This is my only example of Super Scale, a NW booster.  It has bolsters but no power.   Roger Aultman     ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 11:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Hi Gerold,    This should be short. Second Super Scale engine I have.  They say NW-2  Same year as other. Same "etched copper'" construction with Lindsay drive that you have to purchase. Only 2 engines I know made by Super Scale. I have no paperwork for this.                                                                                                                      Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7470	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Latin. Hmmm, it's still Greek to me. I only took high school freshman Latin. Didn't do all that well and the only thing I remember was that Miss R, the instructor, was pretty hot (yes, I do remember her full name). John Hagen Milwaukee, WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote: > > It is Latin, and, roughly translated, it means "there is no point in > arguing over matters of taste" or, in this case "personal > preference/opinion". It falls under the same category as which beer > brand is better than some other - purely a subjective argument that > nobody can win. > > Mike >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7471	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale

Attachments : Hello Jim The loco I have is a calf or a Booster as they call it. Attached are some close ups of the side back end and inside. I probably will not build it, if you have a interest I would trade for a Red Ball older style kit if you are interested. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Roger, Really appreciate you sending the scanned copies of the plans for the Super Scale 1000 HP Switcher. They printed out really nice. I think I'll have to look into a scanner. I can only send digital camera pictures. The bell is the 3 piece bell like Mantua and others. You can get from Yardbird Train if you would want. The stacks were just a metal casting which I would think you could match up with some company producing parts. Of course that is if you intend to build. It's a nice kit. Building or keeping it a kit a personal decision. My copy of this engine was pre built but I had to add hand railing without having plans. I see it should have been a little different. another thing I like about the plans is it shows a cow and calf arrangement. I have to look at my engine to see if the calf could be made from it or was it a separate kit with a body minus cab already made. Again Thanks. these plans help me. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7472	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Don, Nice shirt. 'nuff said. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 6:07 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > > > > When you mix all the prevailing styles of streamlined steamers you > > wind up with.......... > > > > The C&O's Crusader with its mix of bright colors and gleaming fluted > > stainless steel......... > > > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_co490.jpg > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/co490a.jpg > > > > from........ the streamliner page..... > > > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/steam17.html > > > > Best to ya, > > Mike Bauers > > Milwaukee, Wi > > Funny you should mention that. Here's a shot of your friendly > listowner/moderator's ugly mug taken about 30 seconds ago. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7473	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage

Don, I did not see the shirt, but did look at some nice layout shots you posted back in Feb. on the Flickr site   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 9:18 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage   Don, Nice shirt. 'nuff said. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake ), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@ ...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 6:07 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > > > > When you mix all the prevailing styles of streamlined steamers you > > wind up with........ .. > > > > The C&O's Crusader with its mix of bright colors and gleaming fluted > > stainless steel....... .. > > > > http://www.northeas t.railfan. net/images/ tr_co490. jpg > > http://www.northeas t.railfan. net/images/ co490a.jpg > > > > from........ the streamliner page..... > > > > http://www.northeas t.railfan. net/steam17. html > > > > Best to ya, > > Mike Bauers > > Milwaukee , w:st="on">Wi > > Funny you should mention that. Here's a shot of your friendly > listowner/moderator 's ugly mug taken about 30 seconds ago. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@ ... > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7474	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

yes--the semi-stripped version was nice.. there was a version on the San Joaquin Daylight that had the tender and cab painted, , no skirts. Some mountains and pacifics also had that scheme. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:01 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > Glenn, > > No one has to defend the design of the GS series. They were quite > nice looking for a streamlined steamer, more like semi-streamlined in > my opinion. I really like them in black. I feel that the color scheme > of orange, orange, red and more orange was a mite bit on the gaudy > side. > > John Hagen > St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > > -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> A word in defense of the SP GS's--the streamlining was not overdone- > -they >> still had the look of a steam loco. I grew up with them--even the > same >> age--I saw them almost daily. All the basics were visible--the > smokebox , >> the cylinders, the rods were visible. Nobody was trying to make > them look >> like a diesel. gj > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7475	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage

For those that don't get regular emails, the T-shirt showed the same C&O locomotive that Mike posted the link to. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 8:36 PM Subject: RE: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > Don, > > I did not see the shirt, but did look at some nice layout shots you posted > back in Feb. on the Flickr site > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > _____ > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf > Of John Hagen > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 9:18 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > > > > Don, > > Nice shirt. > > 'nuff said. > > John Hagen > St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, > "Don > Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com> >> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 6:07 PM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage >> >> >> > When you mix all the prevailing styles of streamlined steamers you >> > wind up with.......... >> > >> > The C&O's Crusader with its mix of bright colors and gleaming > fluted >> > stainless steel......... >> > >> > http://www.northeas > <http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_co490.jpg> > t.railfan.net/images/tr_co490.jpg >> > http://www.northeas >> > <http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/co490a.jpg> > t.railfan.net/images/co490a.jpg >> > >> > from........ the streamliner page..... >> > >> > http://www.northeas <http://www.northeast.railfan.net/steam17.html> > t.railfan.net/steam17.html >> > >> > Best to ya, >> > Mike Bauers >> > Milwaukee, Wi >> >> Funny you should mention that. Here's a shot of your friendly >> listowner/moderator's ugly mug taken about 30 seconds ago. >> >> Don >> >> Don Dellmann >> don.dellmann@... >> http://www.flickr. <http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/> > com/photos/don_dellmann/ >> Owner >> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO> > yahoo.com/group/vintageHO >> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery> > yahoo.com/group/scenery >> > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7476	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Jim,  With your detailed descriptions, I can sort of picture what your layout must have looked like.  Can't be off-topic if its a layout made to run vintage equipment made with vintage methods using vintage materials.  Thanks for posting.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7477	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage Part 2

Jim,  It pays to be innovative in this hobby.  Not only to save money, but you end up with a sense of accomplishment when it looks realistic after you're done.  Got to use your imagination sometimes when coming up with possible materials you can use.   I'd appreciate your sending me a copy of your tape for loan, and appreciate knowing that you can trust me with it.  While I could pass it on to the next member who wants it, I'd prefer sending it right back to you, so I know it winds up in your hands.  I'll include reimbursement for the postage with the return of it, as I think that's only fair.  Will be getting my address out to you.  Thanks again,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7478	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/7/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Hi John, No Greek, just plain old Latin. "De gustibus non est disputandum" means roughly, "you can't argue matters of personal taste", "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder". One thing I think we all can agree upon, without argument, is that a there were many well proportioned locos hauling impressive consists of passenger and freight cars that have created in us memories that we would like to reproduce in scale. Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Walter, > > I understand about personal taste, but what the heck does that Greek > phrase mean? > > John Hagen > St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7479	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Gilbert DL600 ?

Hi All, please check the auction link below: http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-train-AC-GILBERT-Alco-Diesel-EngDL600-31022-C-O-nice_W0QQitemZ380061522154 Have never seen any of those ... even thought this may be listed in the wrong scale, but it seems it has H0 horn hooks ... thought there was no DL600before the ALCO brass models, and Broadway now? Any info about her? Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7480	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

On Sep 7, 2008, at 7:58 PM, Don Dellmann wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" > > >> When you mix all the prevailing styles of streamlined steamers you >> wind up with.......... >> >> The C&O's Crusader with its mix of bright colors and gleaming fluted >> stainless steel......... >> >> http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_co490.jpg > > Funny you should mention that. Here's a shot of your friendly > listowner/moderator's ugly mug taken about 30 seconds ago. > > <T-shirt.jpg> 8^) Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7481	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?

Hi Gerold,      I have seen these on occasion listed on eBay. Never had one, but they are Gilbert AF.   Sean --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Gilbert DL600 ? To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 4:17 AM Hi All, please check the auction link below: http://cgi.ebay. com/HO-train- AC-GILBERT- Alco-Diesel- EngDL600- 31022-C-O- nice_W0QQitemZ38 0061522154 Have never seen any of those ... even thought this may be listed in the wrong scale, but it seems it has H0 horn hooks ... thought there was no DL600before the ALCO brass models, and Broadway now? Any info about her? Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7482	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Latin (was): Runnning Vintage

My favorite translation is "I can't believe you like that! Will "De gustibus non est disputandum" means roughly, "you can't argue matters of personal taste", "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7483	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: 2nd Super Scale

Roger,         Would appreciate having but since I only collect one of any item I don't have anything to trade. In fact I only have one Red Ball Engine and I don't collect any freight cars. If we can come to another arrangement then possibly but I think that should be off list.           Contact me at jimheck@....       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Hello Jim The loco I have is a calf or a Booster as they call it. Attached are some close ups of the side back end and inside. I probably will not build it, if you have a interest I would trade for a Red Ball older style kit if you are interested. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2nd Super Scale Roger, Really appreciate you sending the scanned copies of the plans for the Super Scale 1000 HP Switcher. They printed out really nice. I think I'll have to look into a scanner. I can only send digital camera pictures. The bell is the 3 piece bell like Mantua and others. You can get from Yardbird Train if you would want. The stacks were just a metal casting which I would think you could match up with some company producing parts. Of course that is if you intend to build. It's a nice kit. Building or keeping it a kit a personal decision. My copy of this engine was pre built but I had to add hand railing without having plans. I see it should have been a little different. another thing I like about the plans is it shows a cow and calf arrangement. I have to look at my engine to see if the calf could be made from it or was it a separate kit with a body minus cab already made. Again Thanks. these plans help me. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7484	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?

Gerold,                   Will be able to supply some information about the AC Gilbert / American Flyer DL 600 later. I have to leave for most of the day. I will check back later. Maybe others will be able to help by then.                                                                                                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 4:17 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Gilbert DL600 ? Hi All, please check the auction link below: http://cgi.ebay. com/HO-train- AC-GILBERT- Alco-Diesel- EngDL600- 31022-C-O- nice_W0QQitemZ38 0061522154 Have never seen any of those ... even thought this may be listed in the wrong scale, but it seems it has H0 horn hooks ... thought there was no DL600before the ALCO brass models, and Broadway now? Any info about her? Thanks Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7485	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Walter, You got that right. To paraphrase bumper stickers I have seen, "A bad looking steam engine beats a good looking airliner". John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: > > Hi John, One thing I think we all can agree upon, without argument, is that a there were many well proportioned locos hauling impressive consists of passenger and freight cars that have created in us memories that we would like to reproduce in scale. > Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7486	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Walter, You got that right. To paraphrase bumper stickers I have seen, "A bad looking steam engine beats a good looking airliner". John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: > > Hi John, One thing I think we all can agree upon, without argument, is that a there were many well proportioned locos hauling impressive consists of passenger and freight cars that have created in us memories that we would like to reproduce in scale. > Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7487	From: ron_tallyho	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > Hi All, > > please check the auction link below: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-train-AC-GILBERT-Alco-Diesel-EngDL600-31022-C-O-nice_W0QQitemZ380061522154 > > Have never seen any of those ... even thought this may be listed in the > wrong scale, but it seems it has H0 horn hooks ... thought there was no > DL600before the ALCO brass models, and Broadway now? Any info about her? > > Thanks Gerold > Was made in three version. GM demo and C & O both with and without bell ringer. Nice engine. Railing are prone to breaking. Rather noisy by today's standards and shell is not highly detailed. Made for the ready to run toy train market. Ron Plyler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7488	From: Jack Priller	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: FYI: eBay vendor

A friend of mine, Dave Hess from Portland, Oregon, eBay id "sportlands", put 15 HO items up last evening, mostly vintage. Included are an un-dec die-cast Varney AB F unit pair [starting price $9.99] and a couple old Athearn 'heavy-weight' coaches in Pennsy colors [starting at 99 cents for the pair]. For the more whimsical, has a working Lionel HO helicopter flat listed as well. http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-of-Varney-HO-Scale-F-Unit-Diesels-AB-Diecast- Undec_W0QQitemZ180287015424QQihZ008QQcategoryZ38278QQssPageNameZWDVWQQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem Not that he is into trains, you understand, but he has an HO layout in his basement sharing the space with his Marx O-27 layout, his primary interest. Also has G-scale set-up in his back yard. Jack Priller

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7489	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Mike "I LIKE IT" Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 17:55:54 -0500 Years ago, I heard the hobby redefined in technical terms......... I've since expanded it a mite...... ..............I AM EXPLORING 'FLANGED-WHEEL, RIGID-PATH, MASS TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS USING ELECTRO-MAGNETIC PROPULSION ON A MICRO-COSMIC BASIC'............ Yup....... that's a technical assessment of any 'model railroad' ............. 8^) Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 7, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Ray,                You're making me just a little older then I am. Next month 64. I have just lost all interest in building a new layout. I have 6' of straight test track and that will probably be it. When I had my layout it was my way of relaxing after a day at work. I would get lost in doing things. Being tight on cash I came up with some very unique ways of doing things, but I can sit back, wat ch my tape and be proud of what I did accomplish. And double proud because I did it all myself. I had no other train fans and you couldn't say you liked trains because people just reacted funny. The remark of "playing with toys" got to me. My layout and the collection had only been seen by maybe 10 people other then those seeing the video. It did hurt to leave the layout. If I had money I would have opened a wall in my old house and taken the layout out in one piece.                  Time for breakfast. Can't miss that.       Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Runnning Vintage Jim, Your old layout sounded great.  You're never too old to start another one, even if its an around-the-wall layout.  I think that somewhere you mentioned you were 70, but as none of us used anything close to that in the Subject line, its not easy to trace back to that to find.  You only have a year on me (maybe actually less), and I'm still working on mine.   Except for a model such as a brass Hobbytown, I wou ld actually consider this brand vintage, but they sure do run great.  They have to be one of the best engineered mechanisms produced.  I also have some of those same ALCo PA's, but they need painting and decalling yet.  I have one pair (AA's) that I plan doing in D&H and another that will be getting the original Freedom Train treatment of 1947/48.  That train visited one of the local shortlines in this area at that time, only about 3 or 4 miles from here and the public was allowed to tour it.  Ray W. -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7490	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

Mike Guess I never saw or seen one. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 18:07:49 -0500 > > > When you mix all the prevailing styles of streamlined steamers you > wind up with.......... > > The C&O's Crusader with its mix of bright colors and gleaming fluted > stainless steel......... > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_co490.jpg > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/co490a.jpg > > from........ the streamliner page..... > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/steam17.html > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Sep 7, 2008, at 9:35 AM, Walter J. Bayer II wrote: > > > I'll take the NYO&W Y Class 4-8-2 Mountaineer by Otto Kuhler anytime > > over the SP GS4, but my top picks are the Dreyfus Hudson and the B&O > > Royal Blue #5304. I had to bring up the O&W loco because it is too > > easily overlooked. The "bathtub" streamlining does not appeal to me, > > but as the saying goes, de gustibus non est disputandum, you can't > > argue matters of personal taste. > > Walter > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > >> > >> NYC Hudson on the Limited and the '38 Hi? Bout even, and a step behind > >> the "35 Hi which is a tad behind the Capitol Limited. Then you gets the > >> streamlined "400", "Super Chief", the "City" liners and maybe then the > >> Daylights. I always admired the SP premier trains but thought them just > >> a tad over rated. > >> > >> But I'd love to see any of them still running today, even if it would > >> mean having E's on the point instead of steam. Oh yeah, just to point > >> up another of my idiosyncrasies, I consider E units to be better > >> looking than PA's, especially the E-6 and earlier. And I am a confirmed > >> ALCO-holic. But looks is looks. > >> > >> John Hagen > >> St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > >> > >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Don, I gather you're saying that the Milwaukee Road F-7 Baltic on > >> the > >>> point of the Hiawatha looks better than the NYC 20th Century Hudson > >> pulling the > >>> Limited (you might also be saying that the MILW train also beats the > >> Empire > >>> State Express for looks?). But besides having some of these Eastern > >> Roads as my > >>> favorites, I'm also an SP steam fan, and I doubt there's anything > >> that can beat > >>> the looks of an SP GS4 on the point of the Coast Daylight. After > >> all, it was > >>> known as the most beautiful train in the world. Ray > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7491	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Runnning Vintage

OK the Cruesader is nice too. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:58:26 -0500 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 6:07 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Runnning Vintage > > > > When you mix all the prevailing styles of streamlined steamers you > > wind up with.......... > > > > The C&O's Crusader with its mix of bright colors and gleaming fluted > > stainless steel......... > > > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_co490.jpg > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/co490a.jpg > > > > from........ the streamliner page..... > > > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/steam17.html > > > > Best to ya, > > Mike Bauers > > Milwaukee, Wi > > Funny you should mention that. Here's a shot of your friendly > listowner/moderator's ugly mug taken about 30 seconds ago. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7492	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Pennsylvania Scale Models

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                   I see another member responded to your questions about the Flyer C&O DL 600. So I will enter these pictures and story about a company that is special to me. This company produced this engine and a number of trolley cars (PCC, IRR,and Brill). First thoughts will be these made by Bowser. True but they have a history.                 The company is    Pennsylvania Scale Models   First address was    14 South Center St   Pottsville Pa. They moved to  PO Box 289,  Ashland NJ. Later Bowser bought it out. The reason special to me is the original factory located 15 miles from where I live. I was able to do some nice research on the company and owners and wrote a story in the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter  "The Reporting Mark" Volume 16 Number 2 January 1998. It contains the complete story that I will only touch on along with help from some other members.               This engine is  a Fairbanks Morse 1600 HP All Purpose Diesel.(H-16-44) I have heard it referred to as a "Baby Trainmaster" The shell and frame are "zamac" castings that were done in Pottsville, Pa.  Pottsville Pa was cast in raised letters on the inside top of the body. A number of ladies assembled them during the day. Some parts came from outside.                           I was able to contact a Mr. Felix Bass who bought out the Pottsville plant and tooling and moved it to Ashland NJ. He could not remember the name of the person he bought it from other then a white bearded gentlemen in his late 70's, early 80', and a lady friend who ran what was a second business. They were in Pottsville from 1950 - 1957. Mr. Bass remembers buying it out in around 1960 and selling it to Bowser in 1965.            The engine shell has nice detail and when details added a very presentable piece. The only problem encountered was that the sideframes (black plastic or nylon) and although detailed nicely, seem either to brittle or to fine of detail and break off. The power comes from " Motor   Our own design, one of the most powerful for it's size ever built, featuring a husky closed circuit Alinco Magnet of the finest quality. Cast especially for PSM. 5 pole Armature of Silicon Steel laminations insulated and wound with Formex Wire, oil impregnated bearings".                                                                                            Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7493	From: Garry Spear	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines

Currently on ebay are two of these older diecast engines (I think). Item: 190245546754 446: BOX LOT OF HO TRAINS Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7494	From: Garry Spear	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: FS: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia

To anybody that is interested I have an original 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedias that is available.  Please contact me off list after Sept 21. for further information.  A 1944 Locomotive  Cyclopedias, original,  is also available. Garry Spear On 9/7/08, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote: Thanks Denny (and others who responded!)...good lead, and very useful to know! I will contact Ms Randall.    Remarkable source of information, vintageHO!...I mostly lurk, but avidly read each day before shackling myself to a microscope...   Russ in Adelaide, where Spring has Sprung...!         Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7495	From: lvtrainmeet	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Train Meet this weekend in Allentown Pa

Just wanted to let everyone know there is a Train meet this weekend 9/13 and 9/14. The Great Lehigh Valley Train Meet Merchants Sqaure Mall 1901 S 12th st Allentown pa 18103 Info http://www.lehighvalleytrainmeet.com Hope to see you there, Kevin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7496	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models

Jim, thanks for the update on PSM . I *think* some of my Bowser Trolley drives ( which I utilize under my E&H trolleys) are actually PSM , I am not quite sure how to tell the difference. I only have noticed that the way the brushes are held against the armature is different, so I guess the older style might be PSM. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7497	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?

Yes--I recall this one. It was made in 1959--we had one at a hobby shop I was working in while in high school. High nose version, ALCo Demo paint--I think Silver & Maroon. Fairly good runner. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 1:17 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Gilbert DL600 ? > > Hi All, > > please check the auction link below: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-train-AC-GILBERT-Alco-Diesel-EngDL600-31022-C-O-nice_W0QQitemZ380061522154 > > Have never seen any of those ... even thought this may be listed in the > wrong scale, but it seems it has H0 horn hooks ... thought there was no > DL600before the ALCO brass models, and Broadway now? Any info about her? > > Thanks Gerold > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7498	From: Don Grant	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: Gilbert DL600 ?

Alco Demo appeared in '56 & '57 AF catalog.  C&O unit in '58, '59 & '60 cat. --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Gilbert DL600 ? To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 1:17 AM Hi All, please check the auction link below: http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-train-AC-GILBERT-Alco-Diesel-EngDL600-31022-C-O-nice_W0QQitemZ380061522154 Have never seen any of those ... even thought this may be listed in the wrong scale, but it seems it has H0 horn hooks ... thought there was no DL600before the ALCO brass models, and Broadway now? Any info about her? Thanks Gerold ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7499	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines

Well, I'm out of touch......... 4 bids on a live auction that runs for 5 more days, and no mention of where the bids are at............ An undeclared 'buyers premium' to be added to the bids......... Oh, I found the instructions........ http://pages.ebay.com/liveauctions/help/before/laabsentee.html It's so cumbersome to do........... There are three premium models there........ the BRASS NYC #999 4-4-0, The Bicycle 4-2-2, and the apparently BRASS open bench trolley. Looks like a royal pain to go through the process of bidding for the lot! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 8, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > 190245546754

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7500	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: FS: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia

Garry--I'm interested.  How do I contact you.  Glenn Joesten glenn476@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Garry Spear To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:50 AM Subject: [vintageHO] FS: 1919 Car Builder's Cyclopedia To anybody that is interested I have an original 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedias that is available.  Please contact me off list after Sept 21. for further information.  A 1944 Locomotive  Cyclopedias, original,  is also available. Garry Spear On 9/7/08, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote: Thanks Denny (and others who responded!)...good lead, and very useful to know! I will contact Ms Randall.    Remarkable source of information, vintageHO!...I mostly lurk, but avidly read each day before shackling myself to a microscope...   Russ in Adelaide, where Spring has Sprung...!         Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7501	From: Garry Spear	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines

With a public auction house they often offer direct email or interne bidding.  Weiss does! www.prwauctions.com I have called them (and other internet train auctioneers) on the telephone for lot descriptions or other help in the bidding process. They may ask for a credit card to accept a direct bid.  Being a TCA, LOTS, or other train club member mat help.  I never worry about other bidders.  I bid what I'm happy to pay and never look back. Garry Spear On 9/8/08, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: Well, I'm out of touch......... 4 bids on a live auction that runs for 5 more days, and no mention of where the bids are at............ An undeclared 'buyers premium' to be added to the bids......... Oh, I found the instructions........ http://pages.ebay.com/liveauctions/help/before/laabsentee.html It's so cumbersome to do........... There are three premium models there........ the BRASS NYC #999 4-4-0, The Bicycle 4-2-2, and the apparently BRASS open bench trolley. Looks like a royal pain to go through the process of bidding for the lot! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 8, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > 190245546754

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7502	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/8/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines

Mike Bauers wrote: > Well, I'm out of touch......... > > 4 bids on a live auction that runs for 5 more days, and no mention of > where the bids are at............ > > An undeclared 'buyers premium' to be added to the bids......... > > Oh, I found the instructions........ > > http://pages.ebay.com/liveauctions/help/before/laabsentee.html > > It's so cumbersome to do........... > > There are three premium models there........ the BRASS NYC #999 4-4-0, > The Bicycle 4-2-2, and the apparently BRASS open bench trolley. > > Looks like a royal pain to go through the process of bidding for the > lot! > > Mike, I feel the same . Never have understood how to use those "auctions" so the few who do might get some goodies at a bargain - nice for them, bad for the auctioneer. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7503	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines

Good morning all, the buyer's premium is always disclosed in the auction's fine print, it's required as far as I know. Most of those auctions hold a 17-19% buyer's premium. Basically they add that percentage of cost to the final auction value. They also tend to be a bit high on shipping charges because they add a handling charge (that is if you are not present at the live auction). I noticed that there is a brass C&S RR 2-8-0 consolidation (an old Aristo-Craft import) with a bear-trap stack in one of the lots listed presently. One other thing about the "live" auctions, they are also open to bids from the floor and by phone at the auction house. This makes the competition quite high. I find them a waste of time since the bidders that are there, and viewing, in person, have an extreme advantage by being able to preview the items in person, while the rest of us have to rely on poor photos and descriptions of the people typing the listings. For $100.00 final auction price, be prepared to pay roughly $140.00 when all is said and done. It hardly makes is worth the effort for me.   Brian L.   In a message dated 9/9/2008 1:46:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corv8@... writes: Mike Bauers wrote: > Well, I'm out of touch....... .. > > 4 bids on a live auction that runs for 5 more days, and no mention of > where the bids are at.......... .. > > An undeclared 'buyers premium' to be added to the bids........ . > > Oh, I found the instructions. ....... > > http://pages. ebay.com/ liveauctions/ help/before/ laabsentee. html > > It's so cumbersome to do.......... . > > There are three premium models there....... . the BRASS NYC #999 4-4-0, > The Bicycle 4-2-2, and the apparently BRASS open bench trolley. > > Looks like a royal pain to go through the process of bidding for the > lot! > > Mike, I feel the same . Never have understood how to use those "auctions" so the few who do might get some goodies at a bargain - nice for them, bad for the auctioneer. Gerold Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7504	From: magnoliastation	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site

FYI: The Mid-Continent Railway Museum is on the outskirts of North Freedom, Sauk County, Wisconsin--hours from the banks of the Mississippi River. It resides in South Central Wisconsin. The MCR is on the old Rattlesnake Line in the foothills of the Baraboo Range, quite near the Circus World Museum (and their famous Circus Train) in Baraboo. It is also near Lake Delton, the body of water that "disappeared" in the same flood and made national headlines. There was tremendous flooding to be sure, just a long way from the Mississippi. (We maintain a residence about 10 miles from the museum.) Steve at Magnolia Academy in the Hannah zone in NC --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote: > > Heres a link to the Mid Continent Railway Museum, the pix show what happened earlier this year when the Mississippi River went over its banks..... > > http://http://www.1385.org/flood_08/6-10-08_1/index.html#1 > > Gary W >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7505	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Authenticast vs. Comet slag cars ?

I have a couple of the Authenticast slag cars, and a picture from an old MR of a Comet slag car. They are similar, but have significant differences. The 'pot' seems to be the same, but the other parts are different. Does anyone know more about these two cars ? Also, I am missing the curved frame part from one of my Authenticast slag cars, any chance of finding a replacement ? I'd like to obtain one of the Comet cars too. Thanks, Dave http;//daveayers.com http;//brassbackshop.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7506	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

Attachments : Hi Gerold,        In some past conversations this engine got mentioned as the engine with the big drivers. While they look over size to me I know Atlantics had large drivers. This is a Rivarossi 4-4-2  Southern Pacific steam engine made in 1952. While a lot of people know about Rivarossi steam engines sold by AHM basically starting in 1966 (and mainly in toy stores like Woolworths around here) they produced a number of items sold a little earlier. (Hey Ray want to  GIVE me your Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha ????)         This engine was sold by Polk's Hobby / Nat Polk. In the 1959 issue by Polk called the "Blue Book of Hobbies  Catalog and cyclopedia of Model Railroads he calls all the Rivarossi he sold under the Aristo Craft name as Aristo Rossi, pages 15 thru 21. Nat Polk was a very innovative dealer who sold many brands and may have just coined this name himself. However because he used it I use it.         We had talked about Rivarossi engines made of Bakelite. This is also. The engine is original and the number 3000 right as factory painted. I have the right style Rivarossi tender but not the original tender.         The plans for the engine came out of the "Blue Book". Please excuse the weight holding the book open. Have to be careful not to break the spine as the entire book is 192 pages.         When I got the engine I had to get it running better. It has the original square type motor that was used in the first AHM/Rivarossi at the start. (they changed to a round motor in later releases). I almost had a real bad experience. When I took the drive apart to redo the engine there are VERY little ball bearings a each end. The VERY little ball bearings from one end fell out all over. You should have seen me trying to find them all ,I think there were 12 and not much bigger then a pin head. I won't take another apart if not needed. I got lucky and found them, got it back together and running a lot smoother but it wasn't fun.          Tomorrow I'll show you another Aristo Rossi item. This is the FM diesel that came in a Rivarossi box  and later sold by Polk with an extremely heavy Bakelite body.  Later a little different version sold by Lionel and an extremely cheap version sold by AHM.                                                             Later my friend                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7507	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Better Pics Aristo Rossi 4-4-2

Attachments : Hi Gerold, After viewing the picture full size not the best. Here are two different. Hope a little better.                                                                                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7508	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines

Garry I am going to bid on the group it is a live auction so I don't think I got a chance in "HOT WATER" but will try. I don't like that they do not put how much shipping will be or what they are going to put on top for their Premium. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines > Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:36:22 -0400 > > > Currently on ebay are two of these older diecast engines (I think). > Item: 190245546754 > 446: BOX LOT OF HO TRAINS > > Garry Spear > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7509	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

Jim, I have several of these engines in a parts pile. If you are looking for a particular part, let me know, I probably have it. I will send photos of the parts that you request to verify that they are correct.   Brian L.    In a message dated 9/9/2008 12:34:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes: Hi Gerold,        In some past conversations this engine got mentioned as the engine with the big drivers. While they look over size to me I know Atlantics had large drivers. This is a Rivarossi 4-4-2  Southern Pacific steam engine made in 1952. While a lot of people know about Rivarossi steam engines sold by AHM basically starting in 1966 (and mainly in toy stores like Woolworths around here) they produced a number of items sold a little earlier. (Hey Ray want to  GIVE me your Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha ????)         This engine was sold by Polk's Hobby / Nat Polk. In the 1959 issue by Polk called the "Blue Book of Hobbies  Catalog and cyclopedia of Model Railroads he calls all the Rivarossi he sold under the Aristo Craft name as Aristo Rossi, pages 15 thru 21. Nat Polk was a very innovative dealer who sold many brands and may have just coined this name himself. However because he used it I use it.         We had talked about Rivarossi engines made of Bakelite. This is also. The engine is original and the number 3000 right as factory painted. I have the right style Rivarossi tender but not the original tender.         The plans for the engine came out of the "Blue Book". Please excuse the weight holding the book open. Have to be careful not to break the spine as the entire book is 192 pages.         When I got the engine I had to get it running better. It has the original square type motor that was used in the first AHM/Rivarossi at the start. (they changed to a round motor in later releases). I almost had a real bad experience. When I took the drive apart to redo the engine there are VERY little ball bearings a each end. The VERY little ball bearings from one end fell out all over. You should have seen me trying to find them all ,I think there were 12 and not much bigger then a pin head. I won't take another apart if not needed. I got lucky and found them, got it back together and running a lot smoother but it wasn't fun.          Tomorrow I'll show you another Aristo Rossi item. This is the FM diesel that came in a Rivarossi box  and later sold by Polk with an extremely heavy Bakelite body.  Later a little different version sold by Lionel and an extremely cheap version sold by AHM.                                                             Later my friend                  Jim    Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7510	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines

Attachments : Charlie and all, there is another lot listed by the same seller (not me), that has an old brass C&S 2-8-0 with bear trap stack. If my memory is correct, it's an Aristo-Craft  import. I saved the photo to my computer and was able to lighten it up and see the engine much better than the listing shows. I have a couple of these already so I'm not planning to bid or I would not have brought it up. Also, as I added earlier, they do state their premium as 18% in the fine print.  Here is the listing and attached is the lightened photo. Good luck, Brian L.   http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220270998932&rd=1   In a message dated 9/9/2008 12:55:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cwindes@... writes: Garry I am going to bid on the group it is a live auction so I don't think I got a chance in "HOT WATER" but will try. I don't like that they do not put how much shipping will be or what they are going to put on top for their Premium. Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Garry Spear" <garrettspear@ gmail.com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One GHC 4-2-2 and 999 NYC engines > Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:36:22 -0400 > > > Currently on ebay are two of these older diecast engines (I think). > Item: 190245546754 > 446: BOX LOT OF HO TRAINS > > Garry Spear > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7511	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

Hi Brian,                      Could use the original tender or tender shell that has Southern Pacific Lines on the side. Not sure if buying,selling or trading should be done on site. Contact me off site at jimheck@... and I would appreciate discussing the purchase if you have either of the above.           You don't happen to have the Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha factory painted to basket case for sale do you ???.                                                                                      Jim                                          ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 Jim, I have several of these engines in a parts pile. If you are looking for a particular part, let me know, I probably have it. I will send photos of the parts that you request to verify that they are correct.   Brian L.    In a message dated 9/9/2008 12:34:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Hi Gerold,        In some past conversations this engine got mentioned as the engine with the big drivers. While they look over size to me I know Atlantics had large drivers. This is a Rivarossi 4-4-2  Southern Pacific steam engine made in 1952. While a lot of people know about Rivarossi steam engines sold by AHM basically starting in 1966 (and mainly in toy stores like Woolworths around here) they produced a number of items sold a little earlier. (Hey Ray want to  GIVE me your Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha ????)         This engine was sold by Polk's Hobby / Nat Polk. In the 1959 issue by Polk called the "Blue Book of Hobbies  Catalog and cyclopedia of Model Railroads he calls all the Rivarossi he sold under the Aristo Craft name as Aristo Rossi, pages 15 thru 21. Nat Polk was a very innovative dealer who sold many brands and may have just coined this name himself. However because he used it I use it.         We had talked about Rivarossi engines made of Bakelite. This is also. The engine is original and the number 3000 right as factory painted. I have the right style Rivarossi tender but not the original tender.         The plans for the engine came out of the "Blue Book". Please excuse the weight holding the book open. Have to be careful not to break the spine as the entire book is 192 pages.         When I got the engine I had to get it running better. It has the original square type motor that was used in the first AHM/Rivarossi at the start. (they changed to a round motor in later releases). I almost had a real bad experience. When I took the drive apart to redo the engine there are VERY little ball bearings a each end. The VERY little ball bearings from one end fell out all over. You should have seen me trying to find them all ,I think there were 12 and not much bigger then a pin head. I won't take another apart if not needed. I got lucky and found them, got it back together and running a lot smoother but it wasn't fun.          Tomorrow I'll show you another Aristo Rossi item. This is the FM diesel that came in a Rivarossi box  and later sold by Polk with an extremely heavy Bakelite body.  Later a little different version sold by Lionel and an extremely cheap version sold by AHM.                                                             Later my friend                  Jim    Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7512	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Rivarossi FM C Liner

Attachments : Hi Again Gerold,          Going to add this quick to other early Rivarossi I just sent. At the end you will know why.     This is a Rivarossi   Fairbanks Morse    CFA-16-4 "C Liner"  Powered A  Made 1952-1956. It has the heavy Bakelite body. The plans / parts sheet for it are in Polk's Blue Book but this engine was sold as a Rivarossi engine to some one in Germany (I think). It came in a Rivarossi box and has a guarantee card (shown on top of Rivarossi Box and a sales slip).         Need help here. The entire sales slip is in German. It says     R. Behle & Co. K.-G.    Spielwaren   Frankfort, Main   Friedrich-Ebert-StraBe 28     Fernruf 92898    On the slip is written    hoko       $45     To bad no date I see. Along with the rest in German it is stamped Frl. Halffter. Just thought this would be as interesting as the engine. Actually hope you can translate.        This originally came factory painted for an earlier Western Pacific scheme that was slightly nicked up. I painted and decaled it in a newer scheme. That is when I first discovered Bakelite body. It has a metal frame  I know Lionel started selling this type of engine and is written up in Greenberg's Lionel HO book. I think there were some little differences and maybe different runs. Was to lazy to start going through my book to check, To many facts. Ray W probably can tell you about the Lionel version right of the top of his head. Also later AHM sold plastic body and frame  A & B cheaper units. I do recall there were 2 different types as far as how the fans on the roof were made. This AHM type comes after the years I collect.                                                      Done for today. Have to move on to finish up.           Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7513	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FM C Liner (translate)

Hi Jim,   Go here and type in words or phrases you need translated.. It is usually most helpful...   Sean   http://babelfish.yahoo.com/?fr=avbbf-us     --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi FM C Liner To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 3:05 PM Hi Again Gerold,          Going to add this quick to other early Rivarossi I just sent. At the end you will know why.     This is a Rivarossi   Fairbanks Morse    CFA-16-4 "C Liner"  Powered A  Made 1952-1956. It has the heavy Bakelite body. The plans / parts sheet for it are in Polk's Blue Book but this engine was sold as a Rivarossi engine to some one in Germany (I think). It came in a Rivarossi box and has a guarantee card (shown on top of Rivarossi Box and a sales slip).         Need help here. The entire sales slip is in German. It says     R. Behle & Co. K.-G.    Spielwaren   Frankfort, Main   Friedrich-Ebert- StraBe 28     Fernruf 92898    On the slip is written    hoko       $45     To bad no date I see. Along with the rest in German it is stamped Frl. Halffter. Just thought this would be as interesting as the engine. Actually hope you can translate.        This originally came factory painted for an earlier Western Pacific scheme that was slightly nicked up. I painted and decaled it in a newer scheme. That is when I first discovered Bakelite body. It has a metal frame  I know Lionel started selling this type of engine and is written up in Greenberg's Lionel HO book. I think there were some little differences and maybe different runs. Was to lazy to start going through my book to check, To many facts. Ray W probably can tell you about the Lionel version right of the top of his head. Also later AHM sold plastic body and frame  A & B cheaper units. I do recall there were 2 different types as far as how the fans on the roof were made. This AHM type comes after the years I collect.                                                      Done for today. Have to move on to finish up.           Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7514	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FM C Liner

Jim , nothing special on the sales slip :              R. Behle & Co. K.-G.    Spielwaren   Frankfort, Main   Friedrich-Ebert-StraBe 28     Fernruf 92898  R.Behle &Co Kommanditgesellschaft private limited partnership    Toys   Frankfurt/ Main River  Friedrich Ebert Street 28  long distance phone number 92898   On the slip is written    hoko       $45  No idea what hoko might be? and why do they indicate the price in USD?    To bad no date I see. Along with the rest in German it is stamped Frl. Halffter. Frl means Fräulein ( Fraeulein if your mail program cant display "Ä" ) - Miss Just thought this would be as interesting as the engine. Actually hope you can translate.        This originally came factory painted for an earlier Western Pacific scheme that was slightly nicked up. I painted and decaled it in a newer scheme. That is when I first discovered Bakelite body. It has a metal frame  I know Lionel started selling this type of engine and is written up in Greenberg's Lionel HO book. I think there were some little differences and maybe different runs. Was to lazy to start going through my book to check, To many facts. Ray W probably can tell you about the Lionel version right of the top of his head. Also later AHM sold plastic body and frame  A & B cheaper units. I do recall there were 2 different types as far as how the fans on the roof were made. This AHM type comes after the years I collect.                                              I think they were sold in Germany under another brand name too - not sure right now, maybe  Fleischmann or more likely Trix ..  it seems to motor/ drive combination is similar to the later E unit/ Krauss Maffei / BL2 drive although the frame might be different. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7515	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FM C Liner (translate)

Sean Naylor wrote: Hi Jim,   Go here and type in words or phrases you need translated.. It is usually most helpful...   Sean   http://babelfish.yahoo.com/?fr=avbbf-us   For single words, English - German and vice versa,  I use     http://dict.leo.org/   Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7516	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

Jim        In some past conversations this engine got mentioned as the engine with the big drivers. While they look over size to me I know Atlantics had large drivers. This is a Rivarossi 4-4-2  Southern Pacific steam engine made in 1952. I am not an expert on SP steam , but I think they never had any loco looking like this one... While a lot of people know about Rivarossi steam engines sold by AHM basically starting in 1966 (and mainly in toy stores like Woolworths around here) they produced a number of items sold a little earlier. (Hey Ray want to  GIVE me your Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha ????)         This engine was sold by Polk's Hobby / Nat Polk. In the 1959 issue by Polk called the "Blue Book of Hobbies  Catalog and cyclopedia of Model Railroads he calls all the Rivarossi he sold under the Aristo Craft name as Aristo Rossi, pages 15 thru 21. Nat Polk was a very innovative dealer who sold many brands and may have just coined this name himself. However because he used it I use it.         We had talked about Rivarossi engines made of Bakelite. This is also. The engine is original and the number 3000 right as factory painted. I have the right style Rivarossi tender but not the original tender. Really? You mean the loco body, boiler, cab and all is bakelite ??   How about the tender?  It seems it has the same outline as the later IHB tender.         The plans for the engine came out of the "Blue Book". Please excuse the weight holding the book open. Have to be careful not to break the spine as the entire book is 192 pages.         When I got the engine I had to get it running better. It has the original square type motor that was used in the first AHM/Rivarossi at the start. (they changed to a round motor in later releases). I almost had a real bad experience. When I took the drive apart to redo the engine there are VERY little ball bearings a each end. The VERY little ball bearings from one end fell out all over. You should have seen me trying to find them all ,I think there were 12 and not much bigger then a pin head. I won't take another apart if not needed. I got lucky and found them, got it back together and running a lot smoother but it wasn't fun. Seems everybody tinkering with Rivarossi engines has to experience this some day... it happened to me when I smoked up a decoder with my SP Krauss Maffei, and intended to inspect the internals of the motor.... I know how small the balls are, with my bad eyes I looked for them with my fingercups rather than my eyes... got them all.          Tomorrow I'll show you another Aristo Rossi item. This is the FM diesel that came in a Rivarossi box  and later sold by Polk with an extremely heavy Bakelite body.  Later a little different version sold by Lionel and an extremely cheap version sold by AHM.   BTW, one of my very first US style locos was an used  "Tempo" - todays Mehano - BL2 which I bought at age 12 in , of all places, Como / Italy - the home of Rivarossi. It utilized the FM drive and trucks; I still have this loco although the body ( in FEC colors) was badly damaged by an attempt of custom painting. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7517	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Rivarossi FM

Gerold,      Two quick responses. As to the price of the Rivarossi FM I wrote $ automatically.  It's 45 DM (Deutch Marks ?) and no fm. My mistake.      As for the body on the 4-4-2 Atlantic it sure looks like it is Bakelite same as the FM C Liner.. As for the tender I don't know. As I said didn't have the original but same style as the IHB style.                                         Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7518	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

Attachments : Excuse me for jumping into the middle of this discussion.  It is very interesting.  Yes, SP  (coast system) did have large drivered Atlantics, Classes A1 thru A3  (as did most Harriman System railroads).  The SP ones had 81” drivers, weighed 186,500# when built, and had a tractive effort of 23,500#.  Many were retired before 1930 (too light and slippery; short on steam on sustained climbing). SP’s T & NO got some of them used; they rebuilt them with 77” drivers, added weight, and equipped them with Worthington feedwater heaters to improve steaming.  Four were rebuilt by SP in 1927 and became class A5; Worthington heaters, trailing truck boosters and new Walschaerts valve gear were added. AND the tender and cab of at least one was painted in a modified Daylight scheme!  They were as modern as any 4-4-2 to run in the US.  #3025 went to display at TravelTown in Los Angeles’ Griffith Park in 1952; I believe it is still there.   So there IS a basis for Rivarossi’s engine.   You guys are carrying on a great dialog-keep it up!!  Regards,  Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerold Eckl Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:55 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2   Jim        In some past conversations this engine got mentioned as the engine with the big drivers. While they look over size to me I know Atlantics had large drivers. This is a Rivarossi 4-4-2  Southern Pacific steam engine made in 1952. I am not an expert on SP steam , but I think they never had any loco looking like this one... While a lot of people know about Rivarossi steam engines sold by AHM basically starting in 1966 (and mainly in toy stores like Woolworths around here) they produced a number of items sold a little earlier. (Hey Ray want to  GIVE me your Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha ????)         This engine was sold by Polk's Hobby / Nat Polk. In the 1959 issue by Polk called the "Blue Book of Hobbies  Catalog and cyclopedia of Model Railroads he calls all the Rivarossi he sold under the Aristo Craft name as Aristo Rossi, pages 15 thru 21. Nat Polk was a very innovative dealer who sold many brands and may have just coined this name himself. However because he used it I use it.         We had talked about Rivarossi engines made of Bakelite. This is also. The engine is original and the number 3000 right as factory painted. I have the right style Rivarossi tender but not the original tender. Really? You mean the loco body, boiler, cab and all is bakelite ??   How about the tender?  It seems it has the same outline as the later IHB tender.         The plans for the engine came out of the "Blue Book". Please excuse the weight holding the book open. Have to be careful not to break the spine as the entire book is 192 pages.         When I got the engine I had to get it running better. It has the original square type motor that was used in the first AHM/Rivarossi at the start. (they changed to a round motor in later releases). I almost had a real bad experience. When I took the drive apart to redo the engine there are VERY little ball bearings a each end. The VERY little ball bearings from one end fell out all over. You should have seen me trying to find them all ,I think there were 12 and not much bigger then a pin head. I won't take another apart if not needed. I got lucky and found them, got it back together and running a lot smoother but it wasn't fun. Seems everybody tinkering with Rivarossi engines has to experience this some day... it happened to me when I smoked up a decoder with my SP Krauss Maffei, and intended to inspect the internals of the motor.... I know how small the balls are, with my bad eyes I looked for them with my fingercups rather than my eyes... got them all.          Tomorrow I'll show you another Aristo Rossi item. This is the FM diesel that came in a Rivarossi box  and later sold by Polk with an extremely heavy Bakelite body.  Later a little different version sold by Lionel and an extremely cheap version sold by AHM.   BTW, one of my very first US style locos was an used  "Tempo" - todays Mehano - BL2 which I bought at age 12 in , of all places, Como / Italy - the home of Rivarossi. It utilized the FM drive and trucks; I still have this loco although the body ( in FEC colors) was badly damaged by an attempt of custom painting. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7519	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

Gerald Garteiser wrote: Excuse me for jumping into the middle of this discussion.  It is very interesting.  Yes, SP  (coast system) did have large drivered Atlantics, Classes A1 thru A3  (as did most Harriman System railroads).  The SP ones had 81” drivers, weighed 186,500# when built, and had a tractive effort of 23,500#.  Many were retired before 1930 (too light and slippery; short on steam on sustained climbing). SP’s T & NO got some of them used; they rebuilt them with 77” drivers, added weight, and equipped them with Worthington feedwater heaters to improve steaming.  Four were rebuilt by SP in 1927 and became class A5; Worthington heaters, trailing truck boosters and new Walschaerts valve gear were added. AND the tender and cab of at least one was painted in a modified Daylight scheme!  They were as modern as any 4-4-2 to run in the US.  #3025 went to display at TravelTown in Los Angeles’ Griffith Park in 1952; I believe it is still there.   So there IS a basis for Rivarossi’s engine.   I stand corrected. http://montiestrains.com/Museums/SP_3025.jpg Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7520	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

A more proper tender, though not vintage, would be the Bachmann small Vanderbilt.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 Hi Brian,                      Could use the original tender or tender shell that has Southern Pacific Lines on the side. Not sure if buying,selling or trading should be done on site. Contact me off site at jimheck@... and I would appreciate discussing the purchase if you have either of the above.           You don't happen to have the Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha factory painted to basket case for sale do you ???.                                                                                      Jim                                          ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 Jim, I have several of these engines in a parts pile. If you are looking for a particular part, let me know, I probably have it. I will send photos of the parts that you request to verify that they are correct.   Brian L.    In a message dated 9/9/2008 12:34:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Hi Gerold,        In some past conversations this engine got mentioned as the engine with the big drivers. While they look over size to me I know Atlantics had large drivers. This is a Rivarossi 4-4-2  Southern Pacific steam engine made in 1952. While a lot of people know about Rivarossi steam engines sold by AHM basically starting in 1966 (and mainly in toy stores like Woolworths around here) they produced a number of items sold a little earlier. (Hey Ray want to  GIVE me your Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha ????)         This engine was sold by Polk's Hobby / Nat Polk. In the 1959 issue by Polk called the "Blue Book of Hobbies  Catalog and cyclopedia of Model Railroads he calls all the Rivarossi he sold under the Aristo Craft name as Aristo Rossi, pages 15 thru 21. Nat Polk was a very innovative dealer who sold many brands and may have just coined this name himself. However because he used it I use it.         We had talked about Rivarossi engines made of Bakelite. This is also. The engine is original and the number 3000 right as factory painted. I have the right style Rivarossi tender but not the original tender.         The plans for the engine came out of the "Blue Book". Please excuse the weight holding the book open. Have to be careful not to break the spine as the entire book is 192 pages.         When I got the engine I had to get it running better. It has the original square type motor that was used in the first AHM/Rivarossi at the start. (they changed to a round motor in later releases). I almost had a real bad experience. When I took the drive apart to redo the engine there are VERY little ball bearings a each end. The VERY little ball bearings from one end fell out all over. You should have seen me trying to find them all ,I think there were 12 and not much bigger then a pin head. I won't take another apart if not needed. I got lucky and found them, got it back together and running a lot smoother but it wasn't fun.          Tomorrow I'll show you another Aristo Rossi item. This is the FM diesel that came in a Rivarossi box  and later sold by Polk with an extremely heavy Bakelite body.  Later a little different version sold by Lionel and an extremely cheap version sold by AHM.                                                             Later my friend                  Jim    Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7521	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

Hi Glenn,     Thanks for your comment. The original model by Rivarossi had a certain style tender with it when it was sold. As a vintage collector I want what was originally sold with the engine. Sometimes vintage is definitely not prototypical when it came to the real thing.                                                        Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 A more proper tender, though not vintage, would be the Bachmann small Vanderbilt.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 Hi Brian,                      Could use the original tender or tender shell that has Southern Pacific Lines on the side. Not sure if buying,selling or trading should be done on site. Contact me off site at jimheck@losch. net and I would appreciate discussing the purchase if you have either of the above.           You don't happen to have the Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha factory painted to basket case for sale do you ???.                                                                                      Jim                                          ----- Original Message ----- From: bslook@... To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 Jim, I have several of these engines in a parts pile. If you are looking for a particular part, let me know, I probably have it. I will send photos of the parts that you request to verify that they are correct.   Brian L.    In a message dated 9/9/2008 12:34:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes: Hi Gerold,        In some past conversations this engine got mentioned as the engine with the big drivers. While they look over size to me I know Atlantics had large drivers. This is a Rivarossi 4-4-2  Southern Pacific steam engine made in 1952. While a lot of people know about Rivarossi steam engines sold by AHM basically starting in 1966 (and mainly in toy stores like Woolworths around here) they produced a number of items sold a little earlier. (Hey Ray want to  GIVE me your Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha ????)         This engine was sold by Polk's Hobby / Nat Polk. In the 1959 issue by Polk called the "Blue Book of Hobbies  Catalog and cyclopedia of Model Railroads he calls all the Rivarossi he sold under the Aristo Craft name as Aristo Rossi, pages 15 thru 21. Nat Polk was a very innovative dealer who sold many brands and may have just coined this name himself. However because he used it I use it.         We had talked about Rivarossi engines made of Bakelite. This is also. The engine is original and the number 3000 right as factory painted. I have the right style Rivarossi tender but not the original tender.         The plans for the engine came out of the "Blue Book". Please excuse the weight holding the book open. Have to be careful not to break the spine as the entire book is 192 pages.         When I got the engine I had to get it running better. It has the original square type motor that was used in the first AHM/Rivarossi at the start. (they changed to a round motor in later releases). I almost had a real bad experience. When I took the drive apart to redo the engine there are VERY little ball bearings a each end. The VERY little ball bearings from one end fell out all over. You should have seen me trying to find them all ,I think there were 12 and not much bigger then a pin head. I won't take another apart if not needed. I got lucky and found them, got it back together and running a lot smoother but it wasn't fun.          Tomorrow I'll show you another Aristo Rossi item. This is the FM diesel that came in a Rivarossi box  and later sold by Polk with an extremely heavy Bakelite body.  Later a little different version sold by Lionel and an extremely cheap version sold by AHM.                                                             Later my friend                  Jim    Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7522	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

SP had a few fairly modern Atlantics--I think the 3000 was a recycled 2-6-6-2.  It was used on the "Sacramento Daylight" that split off from the San Joaquin Daylight at Lathrop and took one or two cars into Sacramento while the road power took the rest to Oakland. For a while it had a modified Daylight paint scheme with red and orange stripes on the cab and tender. The group was later rebuilt as 0-8-0's.  As I mentioned in an earlier response, a 100Cx class vandy tender would be appropriate.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 Jim        In some past conversations this engine got mentioned as the engine with the big drivers. While they look over size to me I know Atlantics had large drivers. This is a Rivarossi 4-4-2  Southern Pacific steam engine made in 1952. I am not an expert on SP steam , but I think they never had any loco looking like this one... While a lot of people know about Rivarossi steam engines sold by AHM basically starting in 1966 (and mainly in toy stores like Woolworths around here) they produced a number of items sold a little earlier. (Hey Ray want to  GIVE me your Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha ????)         This engine was sold by Polk's Hobby / Nat Polk. In the 1959 issue by Polk called the "Blue Book of Hobbies  Catalog and cyclopedia of Model Railroads he calls all the Rivarossi he sold under the Aristo Craft name as Aristo Rossi, pages 15 thru 21. Nat Polk was a very innovative dealer who sold many brands and may have just coined this name himself. However because he used it I use it.         We had talked about Rivarossi engines made of Bakelite. This is also. The engine is original and the number 3000 right as factory painted. I have the right style Rivarossi tender but not the original tender. Really? You mean the loco body, boiler, cab and all is bakelite ??   How about the tender?  It seems it has the same outline as the later IHB tender.         The plans for the engine came out of the "Blue Book". Please excuse the weight holding the book open. Have to be careful not to break the spine as the entire book is 192 pages.         When I got the engine I had to get it running better. It has the original square type motor that was used in the first AHM/Rivarossi at the start. (they changed to a round motor in later releases). I almost had a real bad experience. When I took the drive apart to redo the engine there are VERY little ball bearings a each end. The VERY little ball bearings from one end fell out all over. You should have seen me trying to find them all ,I think there were 12 and not much bigger then a pin head. I won't take another apart if not needed. I got lucky and found them, got it back together and running a lot smoother but it wasn't fun. Seems everybody tinkering with Rivarossi engines has to experience this some day... it happened to me when I smoked up a decoder with my SP Krauss Maffei, and intended to inspect the internals of the motor.... I know how small the balls are, with my bad eyes I looked for them with my fingercups rather than my eyes... got them all.          Tomorrow I'll show you another Aristo Rossi item. This is the FM diesel that came in a Rivarossi box  and later sold by Polk with an extremely heavy Bakelite body.  Later a little different version sold by Lionel and an extremely cheap version sold by AHM. BTW, one of my very first US style locos was an used  "Tempo" - todays Mehano - BL2 which I bought at age 12 in , of all places, Como / Italy - the home of Rivarossi. It utilized the FM drive and trucks; I still have this loco although the body ( in FEC colors) was badly damaged by an attempt of custom painting. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7523	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

Gerold, Why would you try and repaint a perfectly good FEC loco?:-)   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Gerold Eckl Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 4:55 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2   Jim        In some past conversations this engine got mentioned as the engine with the big drivers. While they look over size to me I know Atlantics had large drivers. This is a Rivarossi 4-4-2  Southern Pacific steam engine made in 1952.   BTW, one of my very first US style locos was an used  "Tempo" - todays Mehano - BL2 which I bought at age 12 in , of all places, Como / Italy - the home of Rivarossi. It utilized the FM drive and trucks; I still have this loco although the body ( in FEC colors) was badly damaged by an attempt of custom painting. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7524	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: PING Jim Heckard

Attachments : Hi Jim. Look familiar? (I kept one pair uncut to show people how these start out) Thanks again Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7525	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /Don's stuff/MOV00608.MPG Uploaded by : don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Description : Varney F-3 and 3 Varney cardstock cars You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Don%27s%20stuff/MOV00608.MPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7526	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO

It isn't much of a film clip, but vintage DOES run on my layout.:-) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO > group. > > File : /Don's stuff/MOV00608.MPG > Uploaded by : don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...> > Description : Varney F-3 and 3 Varney cardstock cars > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Don%27s%20stuff/MOV00608.MPG > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles > > Regards, > > don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7527	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Yep!   Short but to then point and even sound! Thanks, Don   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 9:38 PM It isn't much of a film clip, but vintage DOES run on my layout.:-) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO > group. > > File : /Don's stuff/MOV00608.MPG > Uploaded by : don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...> > Description : Varney F-3 and 3 Varney cardstock cars > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Don%27s%20stuff/MOV00608.MPG > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles > > Regards, > > don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7528	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: PING Jim Heckard

Hey Don,   That looks really nice especiallyfor  how old the sides are. Nice job. Glad you could use them                                                     Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:30 PM Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim Heckard Hi Jim. Look familiar? (I kept one pair uncut to show people how these start out) Thanks again Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7529	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Don, Beautiful clip! Love that sound too. Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > It isn't much of a film clip, but vintage DOES run on my layout.:-) > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:34 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO > > > > > > Hello, > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO > > group. > > > > File : /Don's stuff/MOV00608.MPG > > Uploaded by : don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...> > > Description : Varney F-3 and 3 Varney cardstock cars > > > > You can access this file at the URL: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Don%27s%20stuff/MOV00608.MPG > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles > > > > Regards, > > > > don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7530	From: oahurailway	Date: 9/9/2008
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO > group. > > File : /Don's stuff/MOV00608.MPG > Uploaded by : don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...> > Description : Varney F-3 and 3 Varney cardstock cars > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Don%27s% 20stuff/MOV00608.MPG > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htm lfiles > > Regards, > > don_dellmann <don.dellmann@...> 'Bout time we had "some action" around here! LOL! Thanks Don! Regards, Ken >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7531	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: BL2 repaint

Chuck Higdon wrote: Gerold, Why would you try and repaint a perfectly good FEC loco?:-)   Well, I was 14 years old and wanted to have an "corporate scheme" for all my diesels - the BL2, two Fleischmann F7s and some battery operated F3 clone which I converted to a Little Joe style six axle unit with end platforms, painted them all in a blue/ silver warbonnet scheme with a brush.... The F3 is history, but I got a replacement FEC shell for the BL2 and have stripped the Fleischmanns, and repainted them in Burlington colors ( silver!) as they used to be. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7532	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FM C Liner

Jim,  I was never heavy into Lionel H0, so I regret I can't offer what the differences were with their FM C-Liner.  While I helped George Horan with his Greenberg's Guide to Lionel, H0 book, much of that help was in the form of scouting out some of the rarer Lionel H0 items to find that were missing from his collection, to aid in completing the publication.  I first met George as a vendor at one of the local train meets here in New Jersey (George also lives in NJ, as do I), probably at least 10 years before any of the more familiar Greenberg H0 Guides can out in print -- and were still dreams to be compiled by the authors.   George and I became very good friends and he's invited me to his home to see his collection.  When I first saw all he had, it blew my mind.  He had stuff you only wished you could ever find some day, including engines you didn't know existed or only heard rumors of.  Anyway, as he knew that I went to every meet in a 200 mile radius of where I live, we figured these opportunities would be the best chance to turn up the rare items for him, which I didn't mind doing.  He was kind enough to reciprocate by allowing me to buy some of his collection (at nominal fees).  I would often bring want lists of other H0 SC&H SIG members along with me to these meets as well, as I got to know a good many of them -- George was a member of the H0SC&H SIG also, as I'm sure you must know; I noticed that you got to know George as well.  Anyway, so much for that story, but just thought you'd find it amusing, even if I can't help you with the C-Liner.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7533	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Early Walthers

Attachments : Hi Gerold,              I think just about everybody into HO has heard of Walthers. One of the first in 1936 till the present day. In those early years Walthers produced a couple of their own engines. This will be about one.           The pictures are of a boxed kit (no. 6410) of an ALCO Diesel (600)  It is made of heavy lead. There were some added details in the box but you supplied the power / drive. I apologize for the plans not showing very good. They're in a light green. I should have copied them in black.            My plans have a Sept 1946 date and drawing by Don Horning and this engine appears in my 1946 Walthers catalog.   Yet I am sure this engine was produced earlier. I have paperwork showing this in an earlier catalog listed as 6410/39. The 39 means it was first cataloged in 1939.            My engine cost $19.00 complete in 1946. The one made in 1939 is listed for $15.00. Pretty good jump in price for that time period.             Tomorrow is a special one for you . I know you like trolleys so it will be the only trolley I have in my collection. A Walthers Birney 4 wheel street car (powered) that was first catalogued in 1939.          While I have many more early vintage items, but from more well known companies, I will probably be ending the sending of these pictures/write ups soon. Maybe 4 or 5 more unless there is something specific you want to see.                                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7534	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Early Walthers

Hey Jim,   I saw and am watching wht appears to be a complete set of instructions for a 1938 Varney Passenger Pacific steam engine. Let me know if you need them. I will bid for you, if you like.   Sean --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Early Walthers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 10:27 AM Hi Gerold,              I think just about everybody into HO has heard of Walthers. One of the first in 1936 till the present day. In those early years Walthers produced a couple of their own engines. This will be about one.           The pictures are of a boxed kit (no. 6410) of an ALCO Diesel (600)  It is made of heavy lead. There were some added details in the box but you supplied the power / drive. I apologize for the plans not showing very good. They're in a light green. I should have copied them in black.            My plans have a Sept 1946 date and drawing by Don Horning and this engine appears in my 1946 Walthers catalog.   Yet I am sure this engine was produced earlier. I have paperwork showing this in an earlier catalog listed as 6410/39. The 39 means it was first cataloged in 1939.            My engine cost $19.00 complete in 1946. The one made in 1939 is listed for $15.00. Pretty good jump in price for that time period.             Tomorrow is a special one for you . I know you like trolleys so it will be the only trolley I have in my collection. A Walthers Birney 4 wheel street car (powered) that was first catalogued in 1939.          While I have many more early vintage items, but from more well known companies, I will probably be ending the sending of these pictures/write ups soon. Maybe 4 or 5 more unless there is something specific you want to see.                                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7535	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Early Walthers

Sean,  Thanks for thinking about me. I have complete sets of plans for the earliest Varney 4-6-2 Pacific,  2-8-2 Mikado ( that used the same Bronze body style as the Pacific) and the 2-8-0 Consolidation with the Wooten firebox. These have a lot of pages but if you need I will send to you.                       Get to work.                   Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early Walthers Hey Jim,   I saw and am watching wht appears to be a complete set of instructions for a 1938 Varney Passenger Pacific steam engine. Let me know if you need them. I will bid for you, if you like.   Sean --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Early Walthers To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 10:27 AM Hi Gerold,              I think just about everybody into HO has heard of Walthers. One of the first in 1936 till the present day. In those early years Walthers produced a couple of their own engines. This will be about one.           The pictures are of a boxed kit (no. 6410) of an ALCO Diesel (600)  It is made of heavy lead. There were some added details in the box but you supplied the power / drive. I apologize for the plans not showing very good. They're in a light green. I should have copied them in black.            My plans have a Sept 1946 date and drawing by Don Horning and this engine appears in my 1946 Walthers catalog.   Yet I am sure this engine was produced earlier. I have paperwork showing this in an earlier catalog listed as 6410/39. The 39 means it was first cataloged in 1939.            My engine cost $19.00 complete in 1946. The one made in 1939 is listed for $15.00. Pretty good jump in price for that time period.             Tomorrow is a special one for you . I know you like trolleys so it will be the only trolley I have in my collection. A Walthers Birney 4 wheel street car (powered) that was first catalogued in 1939.          While I have many more early vintage items, but from more well known companies, I will probably be ending the sending of these pictures/write ups soon. Maybe 4 or 5 more unless there is something specific you want to see.                                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7536	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Early Walthers

Hi Jim, Yes, this engine was produced pre-War.  It was cataloged as -- # 6410 "Diesel Switching Locomotive -- ALCO Type," and its indicated that the kit came complete with the same standard self-contained motor (power) truck that came with the # 5650 Gas Electric Car, but of course being pre-War, it was rated for 6 to 8 volts.  The only thing that's not clear is which motor unit they used with this switcher -- there were two Power Units -- # U239 (13:1 gear ratio) and # U240 (6:1 gear ratio) -- unless you had you choice.  My 1939 catalog has it listed at $13.00 for the kit.  It was also offered factory assembled at $20.00. You may have an early 1939 catalog if yours says $15.00 for the kit, and if so, then it looks like they reduced the price.  The 1940 catalog also lists it for $13.00, but it jumped to $15.00 in 1941 I noticed you stated that your switcher's body is heavy lead, which is most curious, unless your body is a left-over from 1941.  Up until 1941, the pre-War switchers are described as having a cab consisting of five bronze castings.  The 1941 catalog describes this switcher as -- "Body is now completely die-cast and comes assembled in kit." Yet, in Walthers' 1946 catalog, this switcher is again described as having its cab consisting of five die-castings which are now factory assembled.  The finished (factory assembled) locomotive now jumped to $30.00.  BTW, the five-piece bronze cab castings kit (#  6411) sold for $3.25 pre-War and $3.50 post-War. By 1948, this kit "jumped" from the 1946 price of $19.00 to $19.60, and stayed at that price through 1950.  For those modeling with this engine at that time, it was indicated that this loco was in regular service on the AT&SF, IC, LV, C&NW, MILW, B&O and others. The post-War catalogs still say that this unit is powered by the popular motor truck that is found with their gas-electric.  There's only one Power Unit cataloged from 1946 on, # U240, which is decribed as having been recently redesigned "to eliminate all possible bugs." They had to have converted it to 12 volt. Just wanted to mention that the # 6611 single truck (4-wheel) Birney trolley ("Street") car is described as being a Public Service Company design.  Public Service was a New Jersey transportation company.  Looking forward to seeing yours.  These also were produced both pre-War and post-War.  Best,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7537	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?

What is the difference in the cosolidations? How do I know which one has the Wooten firebox? --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early Walthers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 11:48 AM Sean,  Thanks for thinking about me. I have complete sets of plans for the earliest Varney 4-6-2 Pacific,  2-8-2 Mikado ( that used the same Bronze body style as the Pacific) and the 2-8-0 Consolidation with the Wooten firebox. These have a lot of pages but if you need I will send to you.                       Get to work.                   Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early Walthers Hey Jim,   I saw and am watching wht appears to be a complete set of instructions for a 1938 Varney Passenger Pacific steam engine. Let me know if you need them. I will bid for you, if you like.   Sean --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Early Walthers To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 10:27 AM Hi Gerold,              I think just about everybody into HO has heard of Walthers. One of the first in 1936 till the present day. In those early years Walthers produced a couple of their own engines. This will be about one.           The pictures are of a boxed kit (no. 6410) of an ALCO Diesel (600)  It is made of heavy lead. There were some added details in the box but you supplied the power / drive. I apologize for the plans not showing very good. They're in a light green. I should have copied them in black.            My plans have a Sept 1946 date and drawing by Don Horning and this engine appears in my 1946 Walthers catalog.   Yet I am sure this engine was produced earlier. I have paperwork showing this in an earlier catalog listed as 6410/39. The 39 means it was first cataloged in 1939.            My engine cost $19.00 complete in 1946. The one made in 1939 is listed for $15.00. Pretty good jump in price for that time period.             Tomorrow is a special one for you . I know you like trolleys so it will be the only trolley I have in my collection. A Walthers Birney 4 wheel street car (powered) that was first catalogued in 1939.          While I have many more early vintage items, but from more well known companies, I will probably be ending the sending of these pictures/write ups soon. Maybe 4 or 5 more unless there is something specific you want to see.                                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7538	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?

Sean,    The Wooten firebox was a lot wider to burn Anthracite coal. Used mostly on Pennsy designs. The other firebox (don't know a name for it ) is a lot narrower. The early or pre war Varney 2-8-0 had the Wooten casting. The body of the later Super Consy had the other type. Shows a lot of rivet detail on them      I'm outside cutting grass sweating like the preverbial pig. I can send some pictures later. Mantua also used the Wooten boiler on early brass / brass and cast kits. Hope that helps for now.                                     You still are not working.       Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 12:17 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation? What is the difference in the cosolidations? How do I know which one has the Wooten firebox? --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early Walthers To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 11:48 AM Sean,  Thanks for thinking about me. I have complete sets of plans for the earliest Varney 4-6-2 Pacific,  2-8-2 Mikado ( that used the same Bronze body style as the Pacific) and the 2-8-0 Consolidation with the Wooten firebox. These have a lot of pages but if you need I will send to you.                       Get to work.                   Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early Walthers Hey Jim,   I saw and am watching wht appears to be a complete set of instructions for a 1938 Varney Passenger Pacific steam engine. Let me know if you need them. I will bid for you, if you like.   Sean --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Early Walthers To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 10:27 AM Hi Gerold,              I think just about everybody into HO has heard of Walthers. One of the first in 1936 till the present day. In those early years Walthers produced a couple of their own engines. This will be about one.           The pictures are of a boxed kit (no. 6410) of an ALCO Diesel (600)  It is made of heavy lead. There were some added details in the box but you supplied the power / drive. I apologize for the plans not showing very good. They're in a light green. I should have copied them in black.            My plans have a Sept 1946 date and drawing by Don Horning and this engine appears in my 1946 Walthers catalog.   Yet I am sure this engine was produced earlier. I have paperwork showing this in an earlier catalog listed as 6410/39. The 39 means it was first cataloged in 1939.            My engine cost $19.00 complete in 1946. The one made in 1939 is listed for $15.00. Pretty good jump in price for that time period.             Tomorrow is a special one for you . I know you like trolleys so it will be the only trolley I have in my collection. A Walthers Birney 4 wheel street car (powered) that was first catalogued in 1939.          While I have many more early vintage items, but from more well known companies, I will probably be ending the sending of these pictures/write ups soon. Maybe 4 or 5 more unless there is something specific you want to see.                                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7539	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2

Gerold Sit down corrected, it is too hard to stand corrected at our advancing age. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:41:03 +0200 Gerald Garteiser wrote: Excuse me for jumping into the middle of this discussion.  It is very interesting.  Yes, SP  (coast system) did have large drivered Atlantics, Classes A1 thru A3  (as did most Harriman System railroads).  The SP ones had 81” drivers, weighed 186,500# when built, and had a tractive effort of 23,500#.  Many were retired before 1930 (too light and slippery; short on steam on sustained climbing). SP’s T & NO got some of them used; they rebuilt them with 77” drivers, added weight, and equipped them with Worthington feedwater heaters to improve steaming.  Four were rebuilt by SP in 1927 and became class A5; Worthington heaters, trailing truck boosters and new Walschaerts valve gear were added. AND the tender and cab of at least one was painted in a modified Daylight scheme!  They were as modern as any 4-4-2 to run in the US.  #3025 went to display at TravelTown in Los Angeles’ Griffith Park in 1952; I believe it is still there.   So there IS a basis for Rivarossi’s engine.   I stand corrected. http://montiestrains.com/Museums/SP_3025.jpg Gerold -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7540	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?

I see Jim..   No rush.   I could definately use to see the differences in the shells and the years/ime frames they represent. I think I understand the chassis differences.. I have a bunch of brass/bronze shells I want to switch with some of my diecast shells ansd I would like to have the years represented properly..   Thanks, Sean --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation? To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 12:48 PM Sean,    The Wooten firebox was a lot wider to burn Anthracite coal. Used mostly on Pennsy designs. The other firebox (don't know a name for it ) is a lot narrower. The early or pre war Varney 2-8-0 had the Wooten casting. The body of the later Super Consy had the other type. Shows a lot of rivet detail on them      I'm outside cutting grass sweating like the preverbial pig. I can send some pictures later. Mantua also used the Wooten boiler on early brass / brass and cast kits. Hope that helps for now.                                     You still are not working.       Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 12:17 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation? What is the difference in the cosolidations? How do I know which one has the Wooten firebox? --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early Walthers To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 11:48 AM Sean,  Thanks for thinking about me. I have complete sets of plans for the earliest Varney 4-6-2 Pacific,  2-8-2 Mikado ( that used the same Bronze body style as the Pacific) and the 2-8-0 Consolidation with the Wooten firebox. These have a lot of pages but if you need I will send to you.                       Get to work.                   Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early Walthers Hey Jim,   I saw and am watching wht appears to be a complete set of instructions for a 1938 Varney Passenger Pacific steam engine. Let me know if you need them. I will bid for you, if you like.   Sean --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Early Walthers To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 10:27 AM Hi Gerold,              I think just about everybody into HO has heard of Walthers. One of the first in 1936 till the present day. In those early years Walthers produced a couple of their own engines. This will be about one.           The pictures are of a boxed kit (no. 6410) of an ALCO Diesel (600)  It is made of heavy lead. There were some added details in the box but you supplied the power / drive. I apologize for the plans not showing very good. They're in a light green. I should have copied them in black.            My plans have a Sept 1946 date and drawing by Don Horning and this engine appears in my 1946 Walthers catalog.   Yet I am sure this engine was produced earlier. I have paperwork showing this in an earlier catalog listed as 6410/39. The 39 means it was first cataloged in 1939.            My engine cost $19.00 complete in 1946. The one made in 1939 is listed for $15.00. Pretty good jump in price for that time period.             Tomorrow is a special one for you . I know you like trolleys so it will be the only trolley I have in my collection. A Walthers Birney 4 wheel street car (powered) that was first catalogued in 1939.          While I have many more early vintage items, but from more well known companies, I will probably be ending the sending of these pictures/write ups soon. Maybe 4 or 5 more unless there is something specific you want to see.                                                                                                                    Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7541	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Walther's ALCO

Attachments : Hey Mr. Ray,  Thanks for your response. I am not a metallurgist and since there are so many compositions and alloys out there I have to generalize what others have told me, what I think, unless it's listed in the catalog/plans. My engine is a very heavy casting. It is not a zamac type casting. Extremely shiny even after all these years. It sure looks like lead to me. I think I could easily heat it on the stove ,melt it down and put it in another mold.        While I knew there were earlier types I never new of other materials till now. This engine is in 5 pieces. Six if you count the bolster. 2 sides, a front piece,a back piece and a roof that goes the entire hood length and is also the top of the cab. The two sides have slots in them. The back and front pieces have tabs that fit into these slots. The roof is then (soldered,welded,spot welder, whatever) on to hold everything together. The truck bolster fits in slots before you assemble too. I have tried to take pictures of how attached. What ever the materials the "weld" did not flow but is in little clumps. I think that will give an idea as to the make up.(you know how white metal is hard to attach when broke). I don't know if this assembly done by Walthers or by previous owner.         This is why I enjoy this site. I have some knowledge and others have more. Any one might have that one little bit of information that makes everything fall in place.Don't be afraid to comment.                                                                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7542	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's ALCO

That kind of looks like the same metal as Cary uses for their shells and boilers.  I have wanted one of those Walthers Alcos since I first saw one in the Walthers catalog. (early 70s) --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Walther's ALCO To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 10:43 AM Hey Mr. Ray,  Thanks for your response. I am not a metallurgist and since there are so many compositions and alloys out there I have to generalize what others have told me, what I think, unless it's listed in the catalog/plans. My engine is a very heavy casting. It is not a zamac type casting. Extremely shiny even after all these years. It sure looks like lead to me. I think I could easily heat it on the stove ,melt it down and put it in another mold.        While I knew there were earlier types I never new of other materials till now. This engine is in 5 pieces. Six if you count the bolster. 2 sides, a front piece,a back piece and a roof that goes the entire hood length and is also the top of the cab. The two sides have slots in them. The back and front pieces have tabs that fit into these slots. The roof is then (soldered,welded, spot welder, whatever) on to hold everything together. The truck bolster fits in slots before you assemble too. I have tried to take pictures of how attached. What ever the materials the "weld" did not flow but is in little clumps. I think that will give an idea as to the make up.(you know how white metal is hard to attach when broke). I don't know if this assembly done by Walthers or by previous owner.         This is why I enjoy this site. I have some knowledge and others have more. Any one might have that one little bit of information that makes everything fall in place.Don't be afraid to comment.                                                                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7543	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Early Walthers

You could still buy the castings from Walthers as late as the mid 1980's (in the 1984 book it's $ 6.95). By that time they were pretty rough, although if you were willing to do the filing to clean them up they would fit on a Athearn switcher chassis. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early Walthers > Hi Jim, Yes, this engine was produced pre-War. It was cataloged as -- # > 6410 > "Diesel Switching Locomotive -- ALCO Type," and its indicated that the kit > came complete with the same standard self-contained motor (power) truck > that > came with the # 5650 Gas Electric Car, but of course being pre-War, it was > rated > for 6 to 8 volts. The only thing that's not clear is which motor unit > they > used with this switcher -- there were two Power Units -- # U239 (13:1 gear > ratio) and # U240 (6:1 gear ratio) -- unless you had you choice. My 1939 > catalog > has it listed at $13.00 for the kit. It was also offered factory > assembled at > $20.00. You may have an early 1939 catalog if yours says $15.00 for the > kit, > and if so, then it looks like they reduced the price. The 1940 catalog > also > lists it for $13.00, but it jumped to $15.00 in 1941 > > I noticed you stated that your switcher's body is heavy lead, which is > most > curious, unless your body is a left-over from 1941. Up until 1941, the > pre-War > switchers are described as having a cab consisting of five bronze > castings. > The 1941 catalog describes this switcher as -- "Body is now completely > die-cast and comes assembled in kit." Yet, in Walthers' 1946 catalog, this > switcher > is again described as having its cab consisting of five die-castings which > are > now factory assembled. The finished (factory assembled) locomotive now > jumped > to $30.00. BTW, the five-piece bronze cab castings kit (# 6411) sold for > $3.25 pre-War and $3.50 post-War. > > By 1948, this kit "jumped" from the 1946 price of $19.00 to $19.60, and > stayed at that price through 1950. For those modeling with this engine at > that > time, it was indicated that this loco was in regular service on the AT&SF, > IC, > LV, C&NW, MILW, B&O and others. > > The post-War catalogs still say that this unit is powered by the popular > motor truck that is found with their gas-electric. There's only one Power > Unit > cataloged from 1946 on, # U240, which is decribed as having been recently > redesigned "to eliminate all possible bugs." They had to have converted it > to 12 > volt. > > Just wanted to mention that the # 6611 single truck (4-wheel) Birney > trolley > ("Street") car is described as being a Public Service Company design. > Public > Service was a New Jersey transportation company. Looking forward to > seeing > yours. These also were produced both pre-War and post-War. Best, Ray > > </HTML> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7544	From: Al Campbell	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Seaboard Hopper

Hello All: I ran across a triple offset hopper that is all metal. Weight is about 5 oz. Four screws hold the base to the sides. It has an arrangement of levers and a spring to open and close the hopper doors in unison. It is lettered for Seaboard with road number 37557. The car is painted brown with the logo "Through the Heart of the South" The lettering and logo are printed not decaled. Any idea of the manufacturer and age? Thanks for any help, Al Campbell

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7545	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Seaboard Hopper

Attachments : Sounds like an Ulrich, vintage late50’s/early60’s.   It should have a tab connected to the levers and springs; the tab contacted with a fixed tab between the rails; when the loco shoved the car into the fixed tab, the four doors opened and the contents (if any) dropped between the rails/ties.  Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Campbell Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 3:24 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Seaboard Hopper   Hello All: I ran across a triple offset hopper that is all metal. Weight is about 5 oz. Four screws hold the base to the sides. It has an arrangement of levers and a spring to open and close the hopper doors in unison. It is lettered for Seaboard with road number 37557. The car is painted brown with the logo "Through the Heart of the South" The lettering and logo are printed not decaled. Any idea of the manufacturer and age? Thanks for any help, Al Campbell

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7546	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Seaboard Hopper

Jerry, That's THREE doors (that open) -- not that I'm nit-picking, but I just want to confirm that it IS an Ulrich Triple Hopper.  Its already in the files section (Ulrich), as  Catalog # TH-5.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7547	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: BL2 repaint

Hi Gerold, That makes sense to me.  I am happy to hear that you got the replacement FEC shell. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerold Eckl Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 3:30 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] BL2 repaint   Chuck Higdon wrote: Gerold, Why would you try and repaint a perfectly good FEC loco?:-)   Well, I was 14 years old and wanted to have an "corporate scheme" for all my diesels - the BL2, two Fleischmann F7s and some battery operated F3 clone which I converted to a Little Joe style six axle unit with end platforms, painted them all in a blue/ silver warbonnet scheme with a brush.... The F3 is history, but I got a replacement FEC shell for the BL2 and have stripped the Fleischmanns, and repainted them in Burlington colors ( silver!) as they used to be. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7548	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Seaboard Hopper

Ooops!  Sorry, Ray;  I have a couple of 2 bay ones (SP) that have two sets of two doors (two each L/H and R/H side), and I guess subconsciously I was thinking of the four (total) openings in the bottom of the car.  Sorry for the confusion.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk@... Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:02 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Seaboard Hopper   Jerry, That's THREE doors (that open) -- not that I'm nit-picking, but I just want to confirm that it IS an Ulrich Triple Hopper.  Its already in the files section (Ulrich), as  Catalog # TH-5.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7549	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?

The Pennsy firebox you can't remember is probably the Belpaire (sp)--the squared-off one on most PRR locos.  The late Ted Stepek explained to me the reason for the design was that it supposedly used staybolts of a uniform length, or at least of fewer lengths to support the inner firebox and crown sheet.  If you have ever seen into a firebox, what you consider "rivets" (at least the larger ones on the sides) are actually bolts spacing the inner and outer sheets.   Early model loco manufacturers chose Wooten prototypes as they were easier to get the available motors into.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation? Sean,    The Wooten firebox was a lot wider to burn Anthracite coal. Used mostly on Pennsy designs. The other firebox (don't know a name for it ) is a lot narrower. The early or pre war Varney 2-8-0 had the Wooten casting. The body of the later Super Consy had the other type. Shows a lot of rivet detail on them

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7550	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?

Glenn,     Appreciate the explanations you have sent. I'm very poor when it comes to the "real "thing. Your post help me to understand. Thanks.  By the way your comment makes total sense about some early manufacturers choosing the Wooten style for fitting early motors in.                                                             Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation? The Pennsy firebox you can't remember is probably the Belpaire (sp)--the squared-off one on most PRR locos.  The late Ted Stepek explained to me the reason for the design was that it supposedly used staybolts of a uniform length, or at least of fewer lengths to support the inner firebox and crown sheet.  If you have ever seen into a firebox, what you consider "rivets" (at least the larger ones on the sides) are actually bolts spacing the inner and outer sheets.   Early model loco manufacturers chose Wooten prototypes as they were easier to get the available motors into.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation? Sean,    The Wooten firebox was a lot wider to burn Anthracite coal. Used mostly on Pennsy designs. The other firebox (don't know a name for it ) is a lot narrower. The early or pre war Varney 2-8-0 had the Wooten casting. The body of the later Super Consy had the other type. Shows a lot of rivet detail on them

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7551	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/10/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?

Sean, Nothing vintage about this but a good way to see the difference between Wooten vs "standard" firebox would be to examine two Bachmann models. Their Spectrum 2-8-0 is a fine example of a standard (or non-Wooten) firebox while the standard (read cheap) Bachmann line 2-8-0 has a Wooten firebox. It is a model (not a bad one at that, shell-wise) of a Reading prototype. The Reading used Anthracite coal and Wooten fireboxes. The visual indication of a Wooten box on an end cab steamer is the firebox all but eliminate the running boards due to it's extreme width. In the earlier times most Wooten equipped locos were of the Camelback type. Most, if not all, Camelbacks used Wooten fireboxes (this would not necessarily include the very early "Mother Hubbard" types as used by the B&O). The cab was placed atop the boiler in front of the firebox area in order to allow for working some room in the cab. Meanwhile the fireman stood on the deck plate under a minimal roof and tended the fire. Some Camelbacks had two firebox doors along side each other allowing the fireman to better keep his fire. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote: > > I see Jim.. >   > No rush. >   > I could definately use to see the differences in the shells and the years/ime frames they represent. I think I understand the chassis differences.. I have a bunch of brass/bronze shells I want to switch with some of my diecast shells ansd I would like to have the years represented properly.. >   > Thanks, > Sean >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7552	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation?

I have read that the reason we saw so many Pennsy & GN models in the early years was because the Belpaire firebox also provided more motor room. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation? Glenn, Appreciate the explanations you have sent. I'm very poor when it comes to the "real "thing. Your post help me to understand. Thanks. By the way your comment makes total sense about some early manufacturers choosing the Wooten style for fitting early motors in. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Wooten Firebox Consolidation? The Pennsy firebox you can't remember is probably the Belpaire (sp)--the squared-off one on most PRR locos. The late Ted Stepek explained to me the reason for the design was that it supposedly used staybolts of a uniform length, or at least of fewer lengths to support the inner firebox and crown sheet. If you have ever seen into a firebox, what you consider "rivets" (at least the larger ones on the sides) are actually bolts spacing the inner and outer sheets. Early model loco manufacturers chose Wooten prototypes as they were easier to get the available motors into. gj

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7553	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's ALCO

The castings are lead, or a very close lead alloy. Also, it was/is a very crude model, made of crude castings, even for the time. With the small Walthers DC60-powered power truck , it could hardly pull its own weight, much less a train. The truck frames were selected from the standard Walthers "passenger" assortment of the time, and in this regard bore no resemblance to the prototype. This particular early Alco model HH-660 is at last being again modeled, this time by Atlas (currently being advertised). Overland/ Ajin also produced a low volume extremely-refined brass model of this locomotive c. 1995 or so. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7554	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Walther's Birney Trolley

Attachments : Hi Gerold,        I know you like trolleys so this one special for you.   This is the    Walther's Single Truck Birney Trolley     Public Service Co. kit (as Ray stated). The kit number is 6611 An early Walthers catalog has it as 6611/39 with the 39 being when first cataloged. Just how long they continued to make it I don't know. This casting does not seem as thick or heavy as the ALCO diesel yesterday. Since I painted it and don't remember what it was I won't scratch it to find out. It was made of 5 castings,two sides,front and back pieces and roof. It was originally powered by a Walther's 4 wheel drive unit, gear to gear with motor mounted on top (see picture) The photo of the power unit was taken from a 1946 Walther's catalog.     My trolley was almost a complete junker. I found it in a pile of junk parts I had bought. Had no idea at the time what it was. Since there was a 4 wheel power truck in the box along with side frames I put it back together and painted it. I had to add the pole as none were with it. As I said I had no paper work to go with it. Until I got a catalog that showed it having two poles I thought what I did acceptable. Don't feel like changing it now.                                                                                                   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7555	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Walther's "Shuttle Jack"

Attachments : Hi Gerold,                     I know this is a little fast for another item but I'm trying to squeeze things in. My work bench is getting backed up. Along with a lot of small projects I'm also reclaiming two large items. I have to watch things don't get mixed or lost.         This is a Walther's articulated gas electric nick named "Shuttle Jack". It is an imitation of a Santa Fe M-190. Made in 1954 it is spot welded sheet steel construction. I know this group had discussion about this engine before but is a little harder to find then the more normal gas electrics Walthers sold. This was a basket case. I had to disassemble ,rework, repaint and decal to what it is now. It was originally a kit that you assembled. Since I have no paperwork for it I have to assume it came with the normal Walther's 4 wheel power truck. A long with being sheet steel the roof is wood with lots of cast detail parts/fittings.          The information I am writing comes from Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon  Vol. 1 page 23. I'm including this engine to show you because I think a neat item. While I also have the more normal gas electric Walthers made I think these odder. I won't pester you with any more Walthers. They made so many types of passenger cars from different materials and over many years that I'm not going to start showing or attempt to write about. I think others in the group have done some of them. If you want something special and I have I'll send.             the one item I wish I had by Walthers was their 4-6-4 Baltic. A brass kit very hard to assemble. There was one sold on Ebay a couple of months ago but I didn't get it. Hardly ever seen in any shape. I know of two people having them and one man runs his on his layout. (Are you out there ?)                                                     Later       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7556	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Hey Jim,   I didn't know what it was called!  Thanks!   I know you are busy, but I could realy use a couple shots of the roof on the baggage end. I am missing my roof over the baggage area and I need to make one. I have no info or photos of one. Could you also get me a pic of the connection between the cars? Mine is missing/broken.   Thanks!   Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7557	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack"

Hello Jim   I assembled a Shuttle Jack this past year, not difficult but time  consuming.  It runs well even has DCC in it, if  you need a copy of the paper work I can send that. I have one of the Walthers Baltics, nicely assembled and not bad looking for it's age. The person I bought it from said he got from the original owner who assembled it but did not put a motor in.  The second owner put in a Japenese open frame motor but the arrangement for extending the worm did not work too well and it chewed up the gears.  I put a Mantua gear and worm on it but the motor shaft extension did not work good enough it was brass and  would bend over time.  So that project is still awaiting completion.   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:05 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" Hi Gerold,                     I know this is a little fast for another item but I'm trying to squeeze things in. My work bench is getting backed up. Along with a lot of small projects I'm also reclaiming two large items. I have to watch things don't get mixed or lost.         This is a Walther's articulated gas electric nick named "Shuttle Jack". It is an imitation of a Santa Fe M-190. Made in 1954 it is spot welded sheet steel construction. I know this group had discussion about this engine before but is a little harder to find then the more normal gas electrics Walthers sold. This was a basket case. I had to disassemble ,rework, repaint and decal to what it is now. It was originally a kit that you assembled. Since I have no paperwork for it I have to assume it came with the normal Walther's 4 wheel power truck. A long with being sheet steel the roof is wood with lots of cast detail parts/fittings.          The information I am writing comes from Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon  Vol. 1 page 23. I'm including this engine to show you because I think a neat item. While I also have the more normal gas electric Walthers made I think these odder. I won't pester you with any more Walthers. They made so many types of passenger cars from different materials and over many years that I'm not going to start showing or attempt to write about. I think others in the group have done some of them. If you want something special and I have I'll send.             the one item I wish I had by Walthers was their 4-6-4 Baltic. A brass kit very hard to assemble. There was one sold on Ebay a couple of months ago but I didn't get it. Hardly ever seen in any shape. I know of two people having them and one man runs his on his layout. (Are you out there ?)                                                     Later       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7558	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack"

Roger,          I will gladly take a copy of your Shuttle Jack plans. What will I owe you. I figured you had the Walther's Baltic. I still have a picture of it crossing the AT&T bridge. First picture I ever had of one. Then Frank Bell, whom you might know from HOSC&H-SIG, sent me a picture of his. I consider the Walthers Baltic one of the rarest hard to find items. I guess there are so few of them that there is not much "trading'' going on. It has to rank up there with the Rivarossi factory painted 4-4-2 Streamlined Hiawatha and the Penn Line Crusader. I'd be glad to find a basket case.               Thanks again for the offer of the plans                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" Hello Jim   I assembled a Shuttle Jack this past year, not difficult but time  consuming.  It runs well even has DCC in it, if  you need a copy of the paper work I can send that. I have one of the Walthers Baltics, nicely assembled and not bad looking for it's age. The person I bought it from said he got from the original owner who assembled it but did not put a motor in.  The second owner put in a Japenese open frame motor but the arrangement for extending the worm did not work too well and it chewed up the gears.  I put a Mantua gear and worm on it but the motor shaft extension did not work good enough it was brass and  would bend over time.  So that project is still awaiting completion.   Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:05 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" Hi Gerold,                     I know this is a little fast for another item but I'm trying to squeeze things in. My work bench is getting backed up. Along with a lot of small projects I'm also reclaiming two large items. I have to watch things don't get mixed or lost.         This is a Walther's articulated gas electric nick named "Shuttle Jack". It is an imitation of a Santa Fe M-190. Made in 1954 it is spot welded sheet steel construction. I know this group had discussion about this engine before but is a little harder to find then the more normal gas electrics Walthers sold. This was a basket case. I had to disassemble ,rework, repaint and decal to what it is now. It was originally a kit that you assembled. Since I have no paperwork for it I have to assume it came with the normal Walther's 4 wheel power truck. A long with being sheet steel the roof is wood with lots of cast detail parts/fittings.          The information I am writing comes from Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon  Vol. 1 page 23. I'm including this engine to show you because I think a neat item. While I also have the more normal gas electric Walthers made I think these odder. I won't pester you with any more Walthers. They made so many types of passenger cars from different materials and over many years that I'm not going to start showing or attempt to write about. I think others in the group have done some of them. If you want something special and I have I'll send.             the one item I wish I had by Walthers was their 4-6-4 Baltic. A brass kit very hard to assemble. There was one sold on Ebay a couple of months ago but I didn't get it. Hardly ever seen in any shape. I know of two people having them and one man runs his on his layout. (Are you out there ?)                                                     Later       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7559	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Sean,          Be glad to take shots later and send.                                                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! Hey Jim,   I didn't know what it was called!  Thanks!   I know you are busy, but I could realy use a couple shots of the roof on the baggage end. I am missing my roof over the baggage area and I need to make one. I have no info or photos of one. Could you also get me a pic of the connection between the cars? Mine is missing/broken.   Thanks!   Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7560	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Thanks Jim,   Actually just got mine. $22 + S/H. It eas listed as HO CUSTOM SANTA FE M190 PASSENGER ENGINE   Got it from thr same seller as my Crusader.  Love when they are listed that way!   Neat piece!   Roger, if you do not mind, I could really use a set too..   Thanks,   Sean --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 1:14 PM Sean,          Be glad to take shots later and send.                                                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! Hey Jim,   I didn't know what it was called!  Thanks!   I know you are busy, but I could realy use a couple shots of the roof on the baggage end. I am missing my roof over the baggage area and I need to make one. I have no info or photos of one. Could you also get me a pic of the connection between the cars? Mine is missing/broken.   Thanks!   Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7561	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's Birney Trolley

Hi Jim,  The Walthers Birney Street Car was produced at least through 1950.  Beyond that, I can't trace when they discontinued it.  It used the Walthers U592 motor unit (Birney Power Truck).  It was also available as # 6612 Body Kit Only and # 6616 Custom Built.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7562	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Sean,  I'm just curious.  What kind of a search do you put in to bring up something like that (or anything else)?  HO Sante Fe Engine, or . . . It would seem to me that when putting in a search for something so general, that you could come up with a lot more than even a half thousand hits -- but it obviously pays off if you hit upon the right wording.  It seems like looking for a needle in a hay stack having to do it that way though, but I guess that's the only way to find these poorly described offerings.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7563	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack"

I put the plans plus motor assembly instructions in the photos, Roger Aultman folder by Don Dellmann. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" Roger, I will gladly take a copy of your Shuttle Jack plans. What will I owe you. I figured you had the Walther's Baltic. I still have a picture of it crossing the AT&T bridge. First picture I ever had of one. Then Frank Bell, whom you might know from HOSC&H-SIG, sent me a picture of his. I consider the Walthers Baltic one of the rarest hard to find items. I guess there are so few of them that there is not much "trading'' going on. It has to rank up there with the Rivarossi factory painted 4-4-2 Streamlined Hiawatha and the Penn Line Crusader. I'd be glad to find a basket case.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7564	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Fwd: Vintage H0 Layout Tape -- Varney Vandy Tender

Attachments :

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7565	From: Chris B	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Ray, fwiw, I had reasonable success searching on ebay in "HO" for similar unlabeled or mislabeled items with search terms (in various combinations) like:   "runs" (this was pretty good as it knocked out rolling stock) "doesn't run" (same thing) "vintage" "old" "heavy" or "very heavy" "unknown"   and of course, mis-spellings or mis-placed spaces, like: "varrney" or my favorite: "hobby town"  which brings up the hobby shop hits but also brings up hobbytown engines not found by proper name searches.   chris brannigan     ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:27:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! Sean,  I'm just curious.  What kind of a search do you put in to bring up something like that (or anything else)?  HO Sante Fe Engine, or . . . It would seem to me that when putting in a search for something so general, that you could come up with a lot more than even a half thousand hits -- but it obviously pays off if you hit upon the right wording.  It seems like looking for a needle in a hay stack having to do it that way though, but I guess that's the only way to find these poorly described offerings.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7566	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

I sometimes use "black train" or "black train pieces" Picked-up a lot of 17 steam engines and 14 tenders once that way... 8 of the engines were brass as well as 6 of the tenders..   works to stay veigh.. just requires a little looking though...   Sean --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote: From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 4:03 PM Ray, fwiw, I had reasonable success searching on ebay in "HO" for similar unlabeled or mislabeled items with search terms (in various combinations) like:   "runs" (this was pretty good as it knocked out rolling stock) "doesn't run" (same thing) "vintage" "old" "heavy" or "very heavy" "unknown"   and of course, mis-spellings or mis-placed spaces, like: "varrney" or my favorite: "hobby town"  which brings up the hobby shop hits but also brings up hobbytown engines not found by proper name searches.   chris brannigan     ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:27:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! Sean,  I'm just curious.  What kind of a search do you put in to bring up something like that (or anything else)?  HO Sante Fe Engine, or . . . It would seem to me that when putting in a search for something so general, that you could come up with a lot more than even a half thousand hits -- but it obviously pays off if you hit upon the right wording.  It seems like looking for a needle in a hay stack having to do it that way though, but I guess that's the only way to find these poorly described offerings.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7567	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Varney Vandy Tender Questions

To All,      I'm forwarding this message to the group for Ray Wetzel.  The original message was to go through the group site but Ray is still having computer problems. PLEASE read his letter BELOW that deals with questions about the different Vanderbilt tenders Varney sold. Any help appreciated.                                                        Jim         ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: Erieberk@... Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:28 PM Subject: Re: Vintage H0 Layout Tape -- Varney Vandy Tender Ray,         Hope you enjoy the tape. I think I did a pretty good job for not knowing how to go about it. Eastern Pennsylvania mountains almost the Poconos need lots of trees and mine were not clumps of material but single trees. I'm printing this out about the Varney tenders to read and study later. Just so you know you wrote general discussion(to anyone). Since you sent this to my Email only no one else got to read it. Maybe you should send your question through the vintageHO site.                                                                           Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Erieberk@... To: jimheck@... Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:12 PM Subject: Re: Vintage H0 Layout Tape -- Varney Vandy Tender Hi Jim,  Got your layout tape in the mail this morning; many thanks for you prompt efforts in mailing it.  So far, I looked at about 40 minutes or so of it, and will check out the rest later.  Quite the collection you have there.  One question though, do you think you had enough trees on the layout? (LOL).  You did a great job with details. One thing I'd like to throw out here for general discussion (to anyone), and that is Varney's pre-War Vanderbilt Tender.  I noticed your pre-War Vandy tender (unpainted) on the shelf, which is cast aluminum, the same as most of mine (that's about as far as I got through the tape).  I also have two of the cast bronze Vandy tenders with pre-War engines that Spanagel shows in his book on page 57 (w/Northern engine) and again on page 61.   None of the Varney post-War catalogs listing the Vanderbilt tender offer a cast bronze one, but have it as having an aluminum body with a die-cast frame.  But then, neither do any of the pre-War catalogs say anything about the material used for the Vandy tender, although Dave states that the kit # 766 version was first offered in the Fall of 1938, in both aluminum and brass (bronze?).  Yet, I see no reference to a Varney Vanderbilt tender being offered that early.  Both my 1938 and 1939 catalogs makes no mention of a Vanderbilt tender, nor are any shown with their engines.  The first time I see Varney offering a Vandy tender is in 1940 (and again in 1941).  However, only the Switch Engine Tender has its composition described (heavy lead body casting), so by the catalogs a brass pre-War Vandy tender is still uncertain (for that matter so is an aluminum one, as no material is given in the Vandy's description in those two years). Dave does say that the old familiar Adams & Son Foundry provided the castings for the # 766 Vandy tender, which is no surprise.  He (Dave) then goes on with the similar # 1932K Vandy tender, which Adams & Son Foundry again cast, starting in 1946.  He states that the 3-piece brass (bronze?) castings were sold by Adams & Son in 1948 for $3.50.  Dave does say along with this, that for the Varney # 1932K, that Varney offered both the lightweight aluminum body and the brass/bronze.  My point is why did Varney never offer the brass version in ANY of their catalogs.  Besides the pre-War catalogs, I checked every Varney post-war catalog from immediately after the War right up until Varney sold out (in 1957) to Sol Kramer, and looked also at Kramer's Varney catalogs -- not a mention of a brass Vandy.  Just about every one of Varney's post-War catalogs describe it as cast aluminum, with a couple catalogs not stating its material.  I'm just wondering if this tender was available ONLY (directly) from Adams & Son, especially since Dave mentions these brass tenders were made up until 1975 -- or IF it was offered by Varney, WHEN was it first introduced.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7568	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Chris,  Simply amazing -- I guess its all a matter of learning what mistakes and/or omissions to expect, and using the terms (or even one word) that will best bring up a number of poorly described items, most of them somewhat related, so you can choose from them (with a little bit of luck).  Thanks,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7569	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Ray,   I subtract out words that consistantly bring up items I do not want to see.. fpr example..   Try: putting this in just like this in the browser..    vintage loco -marklin -Fleischmann -hornby -roco -jouef -Liliput -Wiking -decoder -SEUTHE -Germany -german -command -Hallmark -marx   Make sure you are in auction items only and in the HO category...   It should have ~ 49 items...   put a "-WORD" in front of any word you want omitted from the search.   I often use -new & -plastic   Sean --- On Thu, 9/11/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 3:27 PM Sean,  I'm just curious.  What kind of a search do you put in to bring up something like that (or anything else)?  HO Sante Fe Engine, or . . . It would seem to me that when putting in a search for something so general, that you could come up with a lot more than even a half thousand hits -- but it obviously pays off if you hit upon the right wording.  It seems like looking for a needle in a hay stack having to do it that way though, but I guess that's the only way to find these poorly described offerings.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7570	From: Chris B	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Ray, it was a learning experience for me too.  I didn't go into it, knowing those tricks, I just ran into them by accident, and when the prices for my target engines started getting way too high, I spent enough time looking for mislabeled and unknown pieces to finish off my project roster.  I'd say out of 60+ vintage engines, I found about 20 of them this way, and paid a fraction of the new going rate for most of them.    but just like folks who have a built in advantage with fine metal work that have a sherline and decades of machining experience, I do have to admit that online searching through media outlets and government websites and documents is a large part of my work as a research analyst. (USPS Privacy Office)   Glad to share what I've learned with anyone in the group, I'm off ebay for duration, by the time I get all the vintage engines I bought in 12 months running, I'll be ready for the rip track or the scrap yard myself!   Chris  ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:15:20 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! Chris,  Simply amazing -- I guess its all a matter of learning what mistakes and/or omissions to expect, and using the terms (or even one word) that will best bring up a number of poorly described items, most of them somewhat related, so you can choose from them (with a little bit of luck).  Thanks,  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7571	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: How to do varnished wood ??

Anyone have some suggestions on how to make wood or wood looking-like RR passenger cars have that old-era look of light wood with coats of varnish on it ?? I want to do some very early passenger and inspection units and have long wanted to model them in the long ago finish of varnished woods. I'm after the two different types of reddish mahogany and light popular varnished wood finishes on any suitable materials. I have to scratch-build many of these and can use any materials if need-be. Thanks, Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7572	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's Birney Trolley

It was available again in the 70's and early 80's. I don't know if Walthers re-ran it or if they found a bunch of castings when they moved (it's been known to happen). It's in the 1979 catalog as part number 933-378 at $ 4.35 for a set of roof, 2 sides, 2 ends and 2 truck sideframes. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's Birney Trolley > Hi Jim, The Walthers Birney Street Car was produced at least through > 1950. > Beyond that, I can't trace when they discontinued it. It used the > Walthers > U592 motor unit (Birney Power Truck). It was also available as # 6612 > Body Kit > Only and # 6616 Custom Built. Ray W. </HTML> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7573	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Thanks Sean and Chris,  Those little bits of info on how best to find obscure items in obscure manners is sure a help.  I wouldn't have thought of how to go about it, but after reading what steps (and types of words) to use, it all makes perfectly good sense.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7574	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/11/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Hi Ray,   Glad to help.   You know, you can even block certain sellers. I like to block those sellers that list hundreds of items at a time and there seems to be no word I can pick to exclude them.   If you find you have a ton of listings from one or several sellers.. open one of their listings (in a separate page).. copy their user name and go back to your search page. Click on the "advanced search" next to the search browser and a page will open where you will find the option to exclude a seller.. past their name into it.   You can chose to save this search and be notified when new items appear matching your results. If you can refine a search down to 100 items or less, I suggest you save it.   With so few items, it will probably be 1-3 times a week a couple items will come up and you will not have to do the process all over again.    Makes it easy as well, to make small changes to search words when you have one already set up with all of your exclusions. There is a limit on the number of excluded words. I tend to use almost all of them. I do have 44 searches however...All serve me quite well.   Sean.. --- On Thu, 9/11/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 8:39 PM Thanks Sean and Chris,  Those little bits of info on how best to find obscure items in obscure manners is sure a help.  I wouldn't have thought of how to go about it, but after reading what steps (and types of words) to use, it all makes perfectly good sense.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7575	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Walthers/Taylor Baltic 4-6-4

This HO locomotive, a very credible and relatively sophisticated model of the Milwaukee Road's Baldwin F-6 4-6-4s of 1930, seems to have been the very first marketed American HO steam locomotive kit, Although at the time, George Stock is reported to have developed one or more HO steam locomotive kits, or at a prior date, to date I have seen no evidence that they did indeed actually exist . The Baltic kit was developed by Frank Taylor or MIlwaukee in 1935 under the name "Taylor-Built". I do not have my documentation with me, but as i recall the kit was in four or five sections, which one could purchase as construction progressed. All the bronze castings were from sand moulds, and in this regard were relatively crude. The cab and tender were built-up soldered assemblies. Almost all detail was applied separately. I do not know the nature of the original 6 volt motor (almost all of these models still existing have been converted to 12 volts, most commonly with a DC-71). The drivers were a proper 80" diameter, and the spokes were unusually fine- which is one of the reasons why these models are still credible today. The prototype was particularly popular in Milwaukee due to a particular historic fast run Chicago-Milwaukee done months earlier by one of these locomotives (topping 100 mph), a special operation to prove the practicality of the proposed new HIAWATHA schedule. Sometime in late 1935, Taylor sold the 'Taylor-Made' business, the name itself, and himself to Bill Walthers, and in the November or December 1935 issues of MODEL RAILROADER ), a large Walthers ad announces both the purchase of the locomotive kit but also that Taylor will be now be working with/for Walthers. (Note that MR had at the time been also running a multi-part series on scratch building a USRA 4-6-2 by Taylor. tt was a tight little group in Milwaukee at that time- Bill Walthers, Al Kalmbach, and now- Frank Taylor). Now, a month later, moving across country to the January 1936 issue of MODEL CRAFTSMAN, we find that Frank Taylor authored an extensive diagrammed article on the actual construction of the Baltic, an article that in fact verbatim replicated the Baltic kit instructions! This article is even more interesting inasmuch as not once in the article is any mention that the locomotive whose construction he is writing about and outlining, is actually available and for sale. One can only speculate what dynamics caused Walthers/Taylor to forsake their friend/neighbor/publisher/editor Kalmbach in this instance. The Baltic kits were relatively difficult to build, expensive, and required soldering and drilling modeling skills that were in short supply at the time, and they could not compete with the much-easier-to- build Varney products that began to enter the market in only a few years. However, with care and with skill, the final result could be pretty spectacular, and the model could still stand up credibly to the later better models that Varney and Mantua produced. They ran very smoothly. I cannot recall at the moment when Walthers ceased to produce these kits, but it probably was at the outset of WWII. I seem to recall that advertisements in the later '40s still listed these kits, but even then the listings had the flavor of simply moving old stock- and I am sure that that was the case. Frank Taylor went on in later years to become the editor of MODEL RAILROADER, and then in about 1946, he founded GLOBE models, which he continued to own until its sale to Athearn in about 1950. I believe that the dates and information that I have mentioned as correct, or close to it. I am away from my library and files. Lastly, I do have one of these models; and after some 70 odd years, it can still hold up its head as a credible HO model against my roster of several fine brass models of the same prototype. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7576	From: Bill Wright	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: How to do varnished wood ??

Mike, Floquil used to make a Flo-Stain, but dropped it. I found a couple of bottles in a hobby shop this summer and bought it. When Floquil dropped it, a local hobby shop here began bottling some similar stains under the product name RoundBell. That hobby shop has now moved to Colorado. Give Wayne a call at 719-530-1496 and see if he has what you need. Tell him I gave you his number. Bill Wright Houston, TX waiting for the eye of Ike

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7577	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: John English 2-8-0 castings

Attachments : Hi Gerold,               That's right. John English 2-8-0 castings. The other day I sent you pictures of a tender that most would recognize as Penn Line / Bowser but was first made by John English. Today I'm sending you pictures of a  John English 3 piece castings for a H-8,9,10. Most will recognize as Penn Line or Bowser production. Lenahans Locomotive Lexicon Vol 1 says "only boiler casting' which is wrong            In 1948 or 1949 John English produced this 3 piece castings (  No 1011 Boiler/Cab casting, 1021 Cylinder Casting, No. 1031  Frame casting)  to make, as the plans state    " HO GAUGE Pennsylvania RR Consolidation  Class H-9 Locomotive        using major Castings Supplied by   John A English and Co.   Yardley PA". These pieces were later bought out by Penn Line and sold their Consolidation          The J English plans tell you how to finish their engine using:    Pittman DC-60 Motor    26T worm gear    Central Valley Model Works Dockside Valve gear set     Varney or Mantua 62" Drivers    2 wheel pilot truck.  The plans show you how to make the main and side rods from .040 Brass plus added detail needed. I like the final sentence.    "The usual supply of scrap metal, wire, and screws found in the average model builders workshop will provide the remaining details"          hHow can you tell the John English from PL. Best I can say is in a red box marked on the end with instructions accompanying the parts. I find no special markings on the castings saying John English          Tomorrow Arden. Even though a lot more I could send I think Sunday will be the last. I do have one item I will show later hoping someone can help me ID who made it.                                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7578	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers/Taylor Baltic 4-6-4

Denny,              You have pretty good recall if you took all those facts of the" top of your head". I intend to print it out. I know my early Walther's catalogs describes a lot about the Baltic it still will be useful. (If you get sick of having a Walthers Baltic I know where you can pawn it off). Thanks for the write up                                                                  Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: Vintage HO Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Walthers/Taylor Baltic 4-6-4 This HO locomotive, a very credible and relatively sophisticated model of the Milwaukee Road's Baldwin F-6 4-6-4s of 1930, seems to have been the very first marketed American HO steam locomotive kit, Although at the time, George Stock is reported to have developed one or more HO steam locomotive kits, or at a prior date, to date I have seen no evidence that they did indeed actually exist . The Baltic kit was developed by Frank Taylor or MIlwaukee in 1935 under the name "Taylor-Built" . I do not have my documentation with me, but as i recall the kit was in four or five sections, which one could purchase as construction progressed. All the bronze castings were from sand moulds, and in this regard were relatively crude. The cab and tender were built-up soldered assemblies. Almost all detail was applied separately. I do not know the nature of the original 6 volt motor (almost all of these models still existing have been converted to 12 volts, most commonly with a DC-71). The drivers were a proper 80" diameter, and the spokes were unusually fine- which is one of the reasons why these models are still credible today. The prototype was particularly popular in Milwaukee due to a particular historic fast run Chicago-Milwaukee done months earlier by one of these locomotives (topping 100 mph), a special operation to prove the practicality of the proposed new HIAWATHA schedule. Sometime in late 1935, Taylor sold the 'Taylor-Made' business, the name itself, and himself to Bill Walthers, and in the November or December 1935 issues of MODEL RAILROADER ), a large Walthers ad announces both the purchase of the locomotive kit but also that Taylor will be now be working with/for Walthers. (Note that MR had at the time been also running a multi-part series on scratch building a USRA 4-6-2 by Taylor. tt was a tight little group in Milwaukee at that time- Bill Walthers, Al Kalmbach, and now- Frank Taylor). Now, a month later, moving across country to the January 1936 issue of MODEL CRAFTSMAN, we find that Frank Taylor authored an extensive diagrammed article on the actual construction of the Baltic, an article that in fact verbatim replicated the Baltic kit instructions! This article is even more interesting inasmuch as not once in the article is any mention that the locomotive whose construction he is writing about and outlining, is actually available and for sale. One can only speculate what dynamics caused Walthers/Taylor to forsake their friend/neighbor/ publisher/ editor Kalmbach in this instance. The Baltic kits were relatively difficult to build, expensive, and required soldering and drilling modeling skills that were in short supply at the time, and they could not compete with the much-easier- to- build Varney products that began to enter the market in only a few years. However, with care and with skill, the final result could be pretty spectacular, and the model could still stand up credibly to the later better models that Varney and Mantua produced. They ran very smoothly. I cannot recall at the moment when Walthers ceased to produce these kits, but it probably was at the outset of WWII. I seem to recall that advertisements in the later '40s still listed these kits, but even then the listings had the flavor of simply moving old stock- and I am sure that that was the case. Frank Taylor went on in later years to become the editor of MODEL RAILROADER, and then in about 1946, he founded GLOBE models, which he continued to own until its sale to Athearn in about 1950. I believe that the dates and information that I have mentioned as correct, or close to it. I am away from my library and files. Lastly, I do have one of these models; and after some 70 odd years, it can still hold up its head as a credible HO model against my roster of several fine brass models of the same prototype. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7579	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Varney Tenders

Hi Ray,                  Have been drinking a lot of coffee (Ha Ha) and trying to absorb all the known facts about Varney Vanderbilt style tenders made of aluminum and brass/bronze. I hope you got the three pictures I sent you. I think, and you'll have to confirm,that there are two different productions of the aluminum type depending on the number of pieces,details, etc. The two ALUMINUM tenders are (1)  #766 (pre war style ? although not listed in catalog till 1940) and (2) #1932K . (Lets forget for right now who cast,who sold,etc. We will discuss that after you assure me I have it straight in my mind. To many facts at once).                 Now as for the brass / bronze. If you saw my third picture I feel it is bronze by the reddish tint to it.I also feel it matches the pre war Aluminum as to way made and detail. Again I need your thoughts to confirm. Then in Spanagel's book you have a picture Page 61 of a 1932k BRASS tender .                To me ,if I'm right about what each is above, would help to answer about the Brass and Bronze tenders being made although not cataloged by Varney.               I'm not going to add dates for any right now since it throws more into the stew. I want to comment my thought about A&S (and their part) and what D Spangel wrote about the Varney Vanderbilt tenders,  Aluminum, and Brass and maybe Bronze.                Let me throw this out to you assuming I have my facts above in order and we are in agreement on them.   Is it possible that A&S sold tenders to Varney (aluminum and bronze # 766) using their name and Varney never listed them under his name for that reason. But later did Varney buy the rights to the Vanderbilt tenders( aluminum and now brass #1932k) so he could sell and list as his, but still retaining A&S as the casting company ???              I know it's a theory but would account for the early dates, the materials used and the non listing in catalogs. I wish we could talk more face to face on this. Let me know your thoughts. This is one of the reason I try to keep an open mind about MAYBE facts or catalogs not exactly right.  Now that's not a put down. They may have just forgotten to enter things. But I will agree we need somewhere to start (catalogs and papers) and people trying to put it all in order with what available. Then other people reading this must remember the books are GUIDES not Bibles.              Will be awaiting your thoughts.  I told you we would have some VERY INTERESTING discussions.                                                                Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7580	From: Dave Ayers	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: MaRa 2-6-6-6 Allegeheny parts

All, Last winter I purchased a group of parts that appear to be left over production parts for the MaRa Allegheny (not Winton). Lots of drivers in various stages of finishing: center, turned and raw, tires, axles, bearings, and even complete wheelsets. Some frame partss and cylinder blocks (but not the rear covers) huge firebox castings, and more. Sets of valve gear castings which look a lot like the Kemtron/PSC baker parts, except that they are a little smaller and better cast ! I have *almost*, but not quite a complete kit, and a number of extra parts in various categories. if anyone knows where I can find more of these fine MaRa Allegheny parts and castings, I would be very interested !! And if someone is interested in some of these parts, please contact be off list. Dave Ayers daveayers.com brassbackshop.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7581	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Varney Vanderbilt Tenders

Attachments : Hi All,                 I just realized that I sent the pictures last night only to Ray. My fault,my apology. Can't join in discussion if you didn't see them             (1)  Aluminum    # 766       (2)    Aluminum  1932 K        (3)   Brass/ Bronze (looks bronze and like # 766 pre war tender).                     Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7582	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders

Hi Jim,  Would have gotten back to you sooner on this, but I was tied up this afternoon, then had an NRHS (National Railway Historical Society) meeting to attend tonight, where they discuss 1 to 1 scale (real size) trains.   Getting back to our discussion, if I can remember all you said (I did take some notes), my computer only allowed me to open the first aluminum tender so I didn't get a chance to see the others.  Anyway, yes, I agree, there are two different Varney aluminum Vandy tenders, each with its own catalog number -- # 766 (pre-War) and # 1932K (post-War).  I can't vouch for these numbers belonging to the Bronze/brass tenders since they're not in the catalogs.  Dave Spanagel has the bronze/brass tenders as having the same numbers as the aluminum tenders, but that's not proof of anything. I do also agree that there are two different bronze/brass tenders, a pre-War model and a post-War model.  We know that A & S made ALL of them -- aluminum and brass -- pre-War and post-War (Varney did not MAKE any) .  Varney listed, carried and sold the both versions of the aluminum tender -- yes, starting in 1940 (# 766).  If Varney carried the bronze/brass tender, why then wouldn't they have listed that in their catalog if they sold it?  Why list one and not the other if they carried them both?  This just makes me wonder if Varney actually carried them at all, but like you said, they could have just forgot to include it -- although, this "lapse of memory" in not including it in their catalogs lasted right up until they sold the company in 1957.  That's really "forgetting" something -- a little hard to understand why they'd forget to include it from 1940 until 1957 (minus the War years).   I'm inclined to believe Varney did carry it, but still there's nothing to say they actually did.  And then you have Spanagel saying A & S sold it directly, starting in 1948.  I wonder where he got that from.  What's to prevent A & S from selling it directly much earlier.  There's too much missing yet from the picture to be able to come to any definite conclusion about this -- really, all because Varney either neglected (forgot) to list it or because THEY never carried it.  One things for sure, they didn't list it, which is where any controversy on it originates.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7583	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Arden RS-2

Attachments : Hi Gerold,               You have been very quiet lately. Hope nothing wrong and you are just to busy working or remodeling.           These are pictures of an Arden RS-2. A lot of people will see a Red Ball, International or Tetsudo Mokei-Sha Alco GE 1500 HP Diesel Electric Road Switcher. While I'm pretty certain all the bodies were made  by same company, it's the drives that set them apart.            Arden RS-2 has a unique drive ( as picture from Lenahan's locomotive Lexicon Vol II will show ) and since an American named company ? I thought you might like to see it. Haven't found out to much about who produced it. Lenahan says made in 1950 ( one year before Internationals) in kit form. Thar's about the only information or paperwork I have found.                      I did find an article about a man named Ray Arden. While he patented over 400 of his inventions (which included stem automobiles, x-ray machines, TOYS, surgical instruments, induction coils and various electronic apparatus) his first love was always the tiny gas engines used in model airplanes. I only add this to see if others might know if there was a connection with Ray Arden and the Arden RS-2.                                                                                                     Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7584	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Varney Bronze Pre War Vanderbilt tender ??

Hi Ray,      Before I respond to your email I was wondering if your computer allowed you to see what I think is a # 766 Bronze Vanderbilt tender. ( made by who or when will be the next question. Do you confirm this to be a # 766 type tender in brass/bronze or a 1932K type  ?      I hope good enough pictures to compare but it looks to me matches the Aluminum # 766 more then 1932K Aluminum.                 Need your ID first.   If more angles needed I will try to take.                                          Let me know                                          Jim.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7585	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: A Sad Site

> > > > Heres a link to the Mid Continent Railway Museum, the > pix show what > happened earlier this year when the Mississippi River went > over its > banks..... > > > > > http://http://www.1385.org/flood_08/6-10-08_1/index.html#1 After the events of the past 24 hours involving Hurricane Ike, I have to wonder how the Galveston Railroad Museum fared the storm. Rick Jones

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7586	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2

That is an interesting way to drive a locomotive. --- On Sat, 9/13/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Arden RS-2 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 13, 2008, 9:29 AM Hi Gerold,               You have been very quiet lately. Hope nothing wrong and you are just to busy working or remodeling.           These are pictures of an Arden RS-2. A lot of people will see a Red Ball, International or Tetsudo Mokei-Sha Alco GE 1500 HP Diesel Electric Road Switcher. While I'm pretty certain all the bodies were made  by same company, it's the drives that set them apart.            Arden RS-2 has a unique drive ( as picture from Lenahan's locomotive Lexicon Vol II will show ) and since an American named company ? I thought you might like to see it. Haven't found out to much about who produced it. Lenahan says made in 1950 ( one year before Internationals) in kit form. Thar's about the only information or paperwork I have found.                      I did find an article about a man named Ray Arden. While he patented over 400 of his inventions (which included stem automobiles, x-ray machines, TOYS, surgical instruments, induction coils and various electronic apparatus) his first love was always the tiny gas engines used in model airplanes. I only add this to see if others might know if there was a connection with Ray Arden and the Arden RS-2.                                                                                                     Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7587	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2

Hi Ray,                  How's that Varney project going?   The Arden drive is one of the oddest I've seen. It's the first time I saw the motor slanted upward so that the coil spring can bend over 90 degrees to work. It's a noisy runner like International but interesting. Can you imagine how many different ways have been tried to power HO. Who comes up with them all.                                                                                                               Jim                     ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Marinaccio To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Arden RS-2 That is an interesting way to drive a locomotive. --- On Sat, 9/13/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Arden RS-2 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, September 13, 2008, 9:29 AM Hi Gerold,               You have been very quiet lately. Hope nothing wrong and you are just to busy working or remodeling.           These are pictures of an Arden RS-2. A lot of people will see a Red Ball, International or Tetsudo Mokei-Sha Alco GE 1500 HP Diesel Electric Road Switcher. While I'm pretty certain all the bodies were made  by same company, it's the drives that set them apart.            Arden RS-2 has a unique drive ( as picture from Lenahan's locomotive Lexicon Vol II will show ) and since an American named company ? I thought you might like to see it. Haven't found out to much about who produced it. Lenahan says made in 1950 ( one year before Internationals) in kit form. Thar's about the only information or paperwork I have found.                      I did find an article about a man named Ray Arden. While he patented over 400 of his inventions (which included stem automobiles, x-ray machines, TOYS, surgical instruments, induction coils and various electronic apparatus) his first love was always the tiny gas engines used in model airplanes. I only add this to see if others might know if there was a connection with Ray Arden and the Arden RS-2.                                                                                                     Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7588	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2

I have seen reference in Model railroader to Arden freight cars in HO, and a reference years ago that may have indicated some sort of link to LW models. Not much to go on, I know, but at least some indication the company existed. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:29 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Arden RS-2 Hi Gerold, You have been very quiet lately. Hope nothing wrong and you are just to busy working or remodeling. These are pictures of an Arden RS-2. A lot of people will see a Red Ball, International or Tetsudo Mokei-Sha Alco GE 1500 HP Diesel Electric Road Switcher. While I'm pretty certain all the bodies were made by same company, it's the drives that set them apart. Arden RS-2 has a unique drive ( as picture from Lenahan's locomotive Lexicon Vol II will show ) and since an American named company ? I thought you might like to see it. Haven't found out to much about who produced it. Lenahan says made in 1950 ( one year before Internationals) in kit form. Thar's about the only information or paperwork I have found. I did find an article about a man named Ray Arden. While he patented over 400 of his inventions (which included stem automobiles, x-ray machines, TOYS, surgical instruments, induction coils and various electronic apparatus) his first love was always the tiny gas engines used in model airplanes. I only add this to see if others might know if there was a connection with Ray Arden and the Arden RS-2. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7589	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2

Don,                Thanks for that tip. You will have to help a non freight car guy out. LW stands for what in LW Models.                                                                                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Arden RS-2 I have seen reference in Model railroader to Arden freight cars in HO, and a reference years ago that may have indicated some sort of link to LW models. Not much to go on, I know, but at least some indication the company existed. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:29 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Arden RS-2 Hi Gerold, You have been very quiet lately. Hope nothing wrong and you are just to busy working or remodeling. These are pictures of an Arden RS-2. A lot of people will see a Red Ball, International or Tetsudo Mokei-Sha Alco GE 1500 HP Diesel Electric Road Switcher. While I'm pretty certain all the bodies were made by same company, it's the drives that set them apart. Arden RS-2 has a unique drive ( as picture from Lenahan's locomotive Lexicon Vol II will show ) and since an American named company ? I thought you might like to see it. Haven't found out to much about who produced it. Lenahan says made in 1950 ( one year before Internationals) in kit form. Thar's about the only information or paperwork I have found. I did find an article about a man named Ray Arden. While he patented over 400 of his inventions (which included stem automobiles, x-ray machines, TOYS, surgical instruments, induction coils and various electronic apparatus) his first love was always the tiny gas engines used in model airplanes. I only add this to see if others might know if there was a connection with Ray Arden and the Arden RS-2. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7590	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: bidding secrets

erieberk@... wrote: > Chris, Simply amazing -- I guess its all a matter of learning what > mistakes and/or omissions to expect, and using the terms (or even one > word) that will best bring up a number of poorly described items, most > of them somewhat related, so you can choose from them (with a little > bit of luck). Thanks, Ray > I first browse for "brass" , "Craftsmen" "cast" "TLC" or a similar generic term, then use the link to the sellers other items ... this often brings up the weirdest items, not necessarily RR related . Some days ago this brought up , of all things , a book about the Austrian Navy - did not have to bid, had bought it already some years ago in a local bookstore. Gerold (Vienna, Austria)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7591	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2

Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi Gerold, > You have been very quiet lately. Hope nothing wrong and > you are just to busy working or remodeling. > These are pictures of an Arden RS-2. A lot of people will > see a Red Ball, International or Tetsudo Mokei-Sha Alco GE 1500 HP > Diesel Electric Road Switcher. While I'm pretty certain all the bodies > were made by same company, it's the drives that set them apart. > Arden RS-2 has a unique drive ( as picture from Lenahan's > locomotive Lexicon Vol II will show ) and since an American named > company ? I thought you might like to see it. Haven't found out to > much about who produced it. Lenahan says made in 1950 ( one year > before Internationals) in kit form. Thar's about the only information > or paperwork I have found. > Jim, nothing wrong - just busy at work and with family comittments. Tomorrow I have a few hours off that I will utilized for modeling... compared the Arden with International, ALCO and Perfect Scale models from my display case ... all distinctively different. BTW, twice I noticed a RS -? type B-unit on Bay, apparently an Japanese import with the same basic details as the International model, wonder if this was available or modified by an owner. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7592	From: bitlerisvj	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Vic's Vintage

Hi friends, I just created an album called Vic's Vintage and posted some photos. I posted some photos of a Varney NW-2 that I have had for years. Many years ago (more than 30) I added a Hobbytown of Boston chassis and about 15 years ago, I painted it with Grand Trunk colors. About 6 months ago I FINALLY finished it by making all of the safety appliances (hand rails), switching out the motor to a can motor, and putting a DCC decoder in it. It runs very well, but the brass wheels require quite a bit of care. The next job I need to do is to get the wheels plated. Too bad Bear locomotive went out of business before I could get new wheelsets. ALSO, I just came back from a Train Show today, the refurbished and renamed GATS show. I found a brass 0-6-0 that was labeled, needs work and doesn't run. It was only $20.00 so I figured, that even if the drivers were the only salvageable item, it was worth $20.00. After I got home, I was able to lube the motor and tune the valve gear. I put on a temporary connection to the tender and VOILA!, it RUNS just fine and both light bulbs still work! The motor is a rather large open frame motor, but has very good running characteristics and a skewed armature. If I end up refurbishing this guy, I will likely replace the motor for DCC. The loco seems to be American made and uses American style screws and 1/8" driver axles. It would be interesting to find out the manufacturer just for grins. It is a rather spartan model with crude details and I can see a lot of shortcuts in the fabrication, but it is kind of cute and has a pretty decent valve gear. Regards, Vic Bitleris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7593	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Vic's Vintage

That's a very good looking NW2 you got there. Just shows what can be done if one takes his time and doesn't rush things. If I could get my wife to understand that... That o-6-o is intriguing. I can't think of any American manufacturer for it. Could it be scratch built using some commercial pieces? But then, like you said it it is a bit spartan so maybe you should just dump it. I could talked into giving you your $20 and maybe even $5 more for your effort. Just trying to help out and all, you know. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bitlerisvj" <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > Hi friends, I just created an album called Vic's Vintage and posted > some photos. > I posted some photos of a Varney NW-2 that I have had for years. Many > years ago (more than 30) I added a Hobbytown of Boston chassis and > about 15 years ago, I painted it with Grand Trunk colors. About 6 > months ago I FINALLY finished it by making all of the safety > appliances (hand rails), switching out the motor to a can motor, and > putting a DCC decoder in it. It runs very well, but the brass wheels > require quite a bit of care. The next job I need to do is to get the > wheels plated. Too bad Bear locomotive went out of business before I > could get new wheelsets. > > ALSO, I just came back from a Train Show today, the refurbished and > renamed GATS show. I found a brass 0-6-0 that was labeled, needs work > and doesn't run. It was only $20.00 so I figured, that even if the > drivers were the only salvageable item, it was worth $20.00. After I > got home, I was able to lube the motor and tune the valve gear. I put > on a temporary connection to the tender and VOILA!, it RUNS just fine > and both light bulbs still work! The motor is a rather large open > frame motor, but has very good running characteristics and a skewed > armature. If I end up refurbishing this guy, I will likely replace > the motor for DCC. The loco seems to be American made and uses > American style screws and 1/8" driver axles. It would be interesting > to find out the manufacturer just for grins. It is a rather spartan > model with crude details and I can see a lot of shortcuts in the > fabrication, but it is kind of cute and has a pretty decent valve gear. > Regards, Vic Bitleris >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7594	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2

Hi Gerold,      Good to hear that all OK. While  items I named as being similar I have to disagree with you on the International, unless mine and yours are different runs. I bet if I put this Arden and my International side by side so you couldn't see the drive truck you could not tell the difference. The Red Ball has some little differences but you have to study it closely.       As for the RS "B" unit I can't answer. While I have a number of International and New One brass from Japan [My favorite IMP engine is a factory painted  P-5a streamlined (modified) electric] I haven't really studied their history. I would lean more to modified by owner. But that is only a guess.                                                                                           Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Arden RS-2 Jim Heckard wrote: > Hi Gerold, > You have been very quiet lately. Hope nothing wrong and > you are just to busy working or remodeling. > These are pictures of an Arden RS-2. A lot of people will > see a Red Ball, International or Tetsudo Mokei-Sha Alco GE 1500 HP > Diesel Electric Road Switcher. While I'm pretty certain all the bodies > were made by same company, it's the drives that set them apart. > Arden RS-2 has a unique drive ( as picture from Lenahan's > locomotive Lexicon Vol II will show ) and since an American named > company ? I thought you might like to see it. Haven't found out to > much about who produced it. Lenahan says made in 1950 ( one year > before Internationals) in kit form. Thar's about the only information > or paperwork I have found. > Jim, nothing wrong - just busy at work and with family comittments. Tomorrow I have a few hours off that I will utilized for modeling... compared the Arden with International, ALCO and Perfect Scale models from my display case ... all distinctively different. BTW, twice I noticed a RS -? type B-unit on Bay, apparently an Japanese import with the same basic details as the International model, wonder if this was available or modified by an owner. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7595	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders

hi Ray,              I'm really starting to believe that the mystery (discrepancy) over the Varney Vanderbilt tenders is the history of A&S involvement.     I found out about an article in the Sept 1948 Model Railroader about Adams & Son Model Foundry. The ad states that they made patterns and castings in Aluminum and Bronze and were ESTABLISHED in 1940 which is the first year Varney sold the first Aluminum Vanderbilt tender The story goes on to list the HO companies A&S did work for. I thought it odd that no mention of GARCO (HJ Garrett and Son) as being on the list. Just a mistake / forgot because we know they did castings for GARCO engines and GARCO sold a Vanderbilt tender that plans for it were included with my 1947 GARCO engine.      The article list Varney as one of the companies they supplied still in 1948 and Daves book said A&S started to sell own version 1948.  These dates don't quit coincide (and the dates of 47 or 48 might only be a couple of month) but still don't help. More has to come to light but from where. All the dates to far back to try to contact anyone. And it still doesn't help with the Brass/Bronze Vanderbilt tender .        I know I'm repeating some things you have mentioned before but trying to put pieces in between.                                                                                            Jim  ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 12:01 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Tenders Hi Jim,  Would have gotten back to you sooner on this, but I was tied up this afternoon, then had an NRHS (National Railway Historical Society) meeting to attend tonight, where they discuss 1 to 1 scale (real size) trains.   Getting back to our discussion, if I can remember all you said (I did take some notes), my computer only allowed me to open the first aluminum tender so I didn't get a chance to see the others.  Anyway, yes, I agree, there are two different Varney aluminum Vandy tenders, each with its own catalog number -- # 766 (pre-War) and # 1932K (post-War).  I can't vouch for these numbers belonging to the Bronze/brass tenders since they're not in the catalogs.  Dave Spanagel has the bronze/brass tenders as having the same numbers as the aluminum tenders, but that's not proof of anything. I do also agree that there are two different bronze/brass tenders, a pre-War model and a post-War model.  We know that A & S made ALL of them -- aluminum and brass -- pre-War and post-War (Varney did not MAKE any) .  Varney listed, carried and sold the both versions of the aluminum tender -- yes, starting in 1940 (# 766).  If Varney carried the bronze/brass tender, why then wouldn't they have listed that in their catalog if they sold it?  Why list one and not the other if they carried them both?  This just makes me wonder if Varney actually carried them at all, but like you said, they could have just forgot to include it -- although, this "lapse of memory" in not including it in their catalogs lasted right up until they sold the company in 1957.  That's really "forgetting" something -- a little hard to understand why they'd forget to include it from 1940 until 1957 (minus the War years).   I'm inclined to believe Varney did carry it, but still there's nothing to say they actually did.  And then you have Spanagel saying A & S sold it directly, starting in 1948.  I wonder where he got that from.  What's to prevent A & S from selling it directly much earlier.  There's too much missing yet from the picture to be able to come to any definite conclusion about this -- really, all because Varney either neglected (forgot) to list it or because THEY never carried it.  One things for sure, they didn't list it, which is where any controversy on it originates.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7596	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Arden RS-2 Don, Thanks for that tip. You will have to help a non freight car guy out. LW stands for what in LW Models. Jim ----- Original Message ----- I don't know. LW Kits were most recently reissued by Ye Olde Huff'n'puff. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7597	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 9/13/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2

At one point in time, many years ago... I had two of the Arden RS2 kits in their boxes, with the instructions. The body was the same as pictured... very much like the International and Red Ball versions, but the sill was cut from a solid piece of brass which you would have to make cuts into to install the handrail stanchions, as opposed to the formed sill with formed brass wire stanchions as found on an International kit that I recently acquired.  The sill had a tang to attach . a Lindsay motor, recommended in the instructions, like the early Red Ball kits. The pilots were plastic, maybe even a type of bakelite, or some other odd material.  Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7598	From: Riverboy	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

Attachments : Hello All,   I recently came across a baggage car that I can't tell who the manufacturer was .   I have included some photos so maybe some of you can help me indentify the maker . All I can tell is it was made in Brazil .   I'm not sure , but the trucks and truck screws do not look original .   If anyone can help me I thank you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7599	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Varney 200 Consy, 300 Mikado

Attachments : Hi Gerold,           These pictures for Ray too and of course anyone else. I had sent picture of the Varney 090 Pacific. These two pictures are of other early Varney steam (pre war).           First is the number 200 Heavy Consolidation with the Wooten firebox and V-1 motor  1938           Second is the number 300 Mikado and V-1 motor    1938         Ray correct me if I'm wrong but these numbers appeared in Dave Spanagel's Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains. They were assigned to most pre war items that had no numbers.        I think it's time to "close-up shop and crawl back into the woodwork". I think I've used up my stay and people are getting a little tired of the HO history lessons. I hope some did enjoy. I tried to share some knowledge but in return I have learned things too.        I will be sending two more pictures of an unknown item that maybe someone can help me ID later on. Other then listening in on the site and trying to respond to help if I can. If some one needs help I'm always here. I still have a very large collection of Steam and Diesel engines that I have not shown from better known vintage HO companies. I can help with, Varney, Mantua, New One, Rivarossi, Penn Line, John English/HObbyline, Hobbytown, Lindsay,Lindberg, Lionel, Revell, Marx, Flyer/Gilbert, Athearn steam from the 60's, Bowser/Redlands Calif, Brass from MEW  IMP  and New One.  Add to that almost 400 passenger cars. All these items from 1938- 1975 (1977 at the latest)         It's been fun. Keep in touch.                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7600	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: VarneyC&NW Oservation

Hi Don,      Nice car. I have to envy you for having this. I have 4 of these celluloid "Varney "Shorty" Observation cars in C&NW colors but everyone has the same problem. The paint is peeling off of the rounded back end. I even bought a mint kit and the same thing. Having the other two cars from the set (Coach and Combine) I would like to add this Observation.                                                                                                        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7601	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

I believe that the name is ATT, I am not sure what it is short for.  Will have to do more checking, I have one of the Combines.  And a freight car, that came in a clear plastic box.  I will look at the trucks and screws when I find the car. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Riverboy Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:46 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car   Hello All,   I recently came across a baggage car that I can't tell who the manufacturer was .   I have included some photos so maybe some of you can help me indentify the maker . All I can tell is it was made in Brazil .   I'm not sure , but the trucks and truck screws do not look original .   If anyone can help me I thank you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7602	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

Hi Chuck,        ATT stands for American Train & Track. Most items were made by a British Company. However I don't think the unknown is ATT. Their Baggage car design different.          I think it is by Hobbycraft of Canada. Will send a picture .                                                         Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:48 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car I believe that the name is ATT, I am not sure what it is short for.  Will have to do more checking, I have one of the Combines.  And a freight car, that came in a clear plastic box.  I will look at the trucks and screws when I find the car. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Riverboy Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:46 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [vintageHO] Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car Hello All, I recently came across a baggage car that I can't tell who the manufacturer was . I have included some photos so maybe some of you can help me indentify the maker . All I can tell is it was made in Brazil . I'm not sure , but the trucks and truck screws do not look original . If anyone can help me I thank you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7603	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Unknown Baggage Car

I should have said might be. I hate making snap judgments. I see now the car in the picture is longer at the rounded end portions of the bottom. My ATT car is a combine, not a Baggage.  Chuck you might be right.                                            Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7604	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Unknown Baggage Car

Attachments :     These pictures are of a company from Canada,  called  Hobbycraft of Canada. Don't know if they or someone else made the cars. There were a number of differ types made. I have a couple. The only paperwork I have is a diagram showing how to attach  different plastic detail parts provided. The bottom has a number of pre drilled holes so you can put the details where needed. Same on the roof. Detail parts provided. All detail parts plastic except for a wire spring for couplers ( I think.) No trucks came with my cars.     Hopefully pictures will help you to see if the same. I think they will be the same.                                                                                            Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7605	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Bronze Pre War Vanderbilt tender ??

Hi Jim,  As you can see, I don't always get a chance to reply the same day.  Hope these delays don't inconvenience you.  Got home last night and was even too bushed to get up on line to place bids on eBay. You could try sending the pic.  Usually, my computer will let me access them especially if there's just one in the message.  I don't know if I'll be able to recognize it as a pre-War or post-War just from the photo.  Sometimes from the right angle its easy for me to tell and sometimes it isn't.  Not like actually having the piece in front of you to look over.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7606	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

Can you tell me how long your Baggage car is. ATT passenger cars seem to be roughly 10" from diaphragm to diaphragm. My Hobbycraft are almost 12".                A good friend of mine, Henry Hultgren, said that there was a Brazilian Company called Fretechi ? Hope I'm spelling it right. They would be a more modern company then I deal with.                                                                                 Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car Hello All,   I recently came across a baggage car that I can't tell who the manufacturer was .   I have included some photos so maybe some of you can help me indentify the maker . All I can tell is it was made in Brazil .   I'm not sure , but the trucks and truck screws do not look original .   If anyone can help me I thank you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7607	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders

Hi Jim,  I agree with you 100% -- I think the outcome of this puzzles lies with the history of A & S.  As I said before, I tend to think that it (the Vandy brass/bronze tender) may well have been offered by Varney, and would even like to think so, but I don't think we're going to get any documentation of that from any Varney literature if they hadn't even given it a mention up until 1957.  Hopefully, there may be some obscure Varney brochure floating around somewhere that states it.  If only more facts were found from A & S, I feel that this is where the answer rests.  Maybe we need to keep a constant Search going for Adams & Son Foundry on eBay hoping something eventually turns up.  For now, I guess we'll sit on it.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7608	From: Riverboy	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

Hi Guys,   It's not Hobbycraft , as the underbody details are different , and are not separate parts . Plus it is about 10" long .     --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 1:21 PM                   Can you tell me how long your Baggage car is. ATT passenger cars seem to be roughly 10" from diaphragm to diaphragm. My Hobbycraft are almost 12".                A good friend of mine, Henry Hultgren, said that there was a Brazilian Company called Fretechi ? Hope I'm spelling it right. They would be a more modern company then I deal with.                                                                                 Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car Hello All,   I recently came across a baggage car that I can't tell who the manufacturer was .   I have included some photos so maybe some of you can help me indentify the maker . All I can tell is it was made in Brazil .   I'm not sure , but the trucks and truck screws do not look original .   If anyone can help me I thank you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7609	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney 200 Consy, 300 Mikado

Hi Jim,  Yes, Dave Spanagel included the kit numbers for these pre-War Varney engines you mentioned -- the # 200 Heavy Consolidation (w/Wooten firebox) and the # 300 Mikado.  He listed catalog numbers for all Varney pre-War engine kits (as well as post-War, of course), with the Pacific having catalog # 090.  The Yellowstone is listed as # 406.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7610	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders

Ray,           Your  other Email said you were sorry for any inconvenience in not replying right away. I'm not going anywhere. When ever you can.         I wonder if Dave Spanagel can help or clarify this Varney Vanderbilt tender thing. I know he has added other things to the Varney history since. I know his phone number and Email but the few times I have contacted him lately I get the impression he wants to be done with HO train history. Can't blame him. He was in it for a loooooong time.        Since you were closer to him I wonder if he could fill you in on any info. Just a thought. If not will watch for any information. Thanks for your responses.                        Have a great day.                             Jim                                           ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Tenders Hi Jim,  I agree with you 100% -- I think the outcome of this puzzles lies with the history of A & S.  As I said before, I tend to think that it (the Vandy brass/bronze tender) may well have been offered by Varney, and would even like to think so, but I don't think we're going to get any documentation of that from any Varney literature if they hadn't even given it a mention up until 1957.  Hopefully, there may be some obscure Varney brochure floating around somewhere that states it.  If only more facts were found from A & S, I feel that this is where the answer rests.  Maybe we need to keep a constant Search going for Adams & Son Foundry on eBay hoping something eventually turns up.  For now, I guess we'll sit on it.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7611	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

The company Henry Hultgren mentioned is probably Frateschi  < http://www.frateschi.com.br/index_eng.php>   Don't know if they make older style stuff. Willard At 01:21 PM 9/14/2008, you wrote:                   Can you tell me how long your Baggage car is. ATT passenger cars seem to be roughly 10" from diaphragm to diaphragm. My Hobbycraft are almost 12".                A good friend of mine, Henry Hultgren, said that there was a Brazilian Company called Fretechi ? Hope I'm spelling it right. They would be a more modern company then I deal with.                                                                                 Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Riverboy To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car Hello All,   I recently came across a baggage car that I can't tell who the manufacturer was .   I have included some photos so maybe some of you can help me indentify the maker . All I can tell is it was made in Brazil .   I'm not sure , but the trucks and truck screws do not look original   If anyone can help me I thank you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7612	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

Riverboy and group, I did a little work and made this comparison photo using on of Riverboy's photos and the baggage car photo from the Franteschi website. You be the judge. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@...> wrote: > > The company Henry Hultgren mentioned is probably > Frateschi <http://www.frateschi.com.br/index_eng.php> > > Don't know if they make older style stuff. > > Willard >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7613	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

Attachments : And now I will actually attach the photo.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 14:05 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car   Riverboy and group, I did a little work and made this comparison photo using on of Riverboy's photos and the baggage car photo from the Franteschi website. You be the judge. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake ), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@.. .> wrote: > > The company Henry Hultgren mentioned is probably > Frateschi <http://www.fratesch i.com.br/ index_eng. php> > > Don't know if they make older style stuff. > > Willard >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7614	From: Riverboy	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

Hi John,   It looks damn close to me , but I can't tell ( comparing the photo to the model in my hand ) if the roof of the Franteschi model is smooth or corrugated as on my model . Also , it appears that the underframe on mine is in reverse , but that is probably due to someone having put it back in reverse .   Thank you as I think we may have a winner . I have never heard of them until today .     --- On Sun, 9/14/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 3:04 PM Riverboy and group, I did a little work and made this comparison photo using on of Riverboy's photos and the baggage car photo from the Franteschi website. You be the judge. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@.. .> wrote: > > The company Henry Hultgren mentioned is probably > Frateschi <http://www.fratesch i.com.br/ index_eng. php> > > Don't know if they make older style stuff. > > Willard >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7615	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders

Okay Jim, I just don't want you to feel that I'm leaving you hanging.  With Dave Spanagel, as long as you have his phone number, I'd encourage you to call him if you'd like.  Too bad it seems like he's getting tired of this hobby.  I don't know how long he's been in the hobby, but I'd be willing to bet there are guys here who've been in it just as long as him.  I've been in it a good while myself -- maybe not as long as him, I don't know.  But like many of us, I started in my younger years in H0 in the very early 1950's after having been given 0-27 trains in 1943 when I was 4 years old.  I did drop out of it for a good spell though, and got back in, in the early 1970's first with collecting the stuff I couldn't afford to get 20 years before. Anyway, getting back to Dave, while we liked and respected each other, even enjoying each other's input on various H0 subjects, I often had the feeling there was some bit of rivalry there on his part, which started after he contacted Hal Fletcher (N.E. USA Varney Rep) for his (Hal's) collection of Varney literature for his Greenberg's book he was just in the process of writing.   I was already in the process of buying Hal's Varney locomotive collection and was buying his literature collection besides.  I just have a feeling that never sat well with Dave, although he did welcome my help with his book with which I offered as much as I could (including any info I got from Hal), but Dave really didn't ask for my help until well into the book after already receiving input from many of our colleagues in the hobby. -- which may be why he didn't give me a larger mention even though I spent many hours on it. I seemed to have noticed a similar "problem" also in my article offerings for the H0SC&H Reporting Mark when I'd submit them.  While he enjoyed receiving my input, there were times that he didn't publish some of what I submitted, although I can't say why.  I know he gladly bought some needed Varney models from me for inclusion in his book, and we always had enjoyable chats when I phoned him, but I somehow just got this strange impression from him that he never fully accepted me, although of course I could be wrong; I'll never know.  Best,  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7616	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Arden RS-2

Jim,  I can add a bit here on L W Model Co., but still can't tell you at this point in time what that stands for.  Like other little facts picked up on the hobby during the years, I may have learned what this represents, but if so, I've forgotten.  If I find something on it I'll let you know.  They were manufactured in Latrobe, PA but if this has anything at all to do with their name, I don't know.   I don't recall seeing very much of them before 1955, but in that year they bought out A-C Models (from the 1930's) of Chicago, IL., and merged that line into their own, offering the same car kits but with different catalog numbers.  They had an interesting line of "different" cars (Pickle car, Vinegar car, Rack car, etc.) including a series of work cars patterned after Pennsy prototypes.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7617	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers/Taylor Baltic 4-6-4

Hello Denny,  I just wanted to offer my thanks for your posting this very informative narrative on the Walthers Baltic engine and the history of its beginnings.  While it just stuff like this that may have been common knowledge to some older modelers, all too often information like this all too soon gets lost, especially if it was never published.  This type of info is just what we need here to maintain the history of these manufacturers.   I can try to add to this, but anything I come up with will be found in early Walthers catalogs.  Still, not everyone has these, so this added info may help some members in better understanding things about this model, which is what I'm hoping to accomplish.  Many thanks again for giving us these little known facts; I found it absorbing in helping to fill in a bit more on the histories on some early companies.  Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7618	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Baltic 4-6-4

Hi Denny et al, As mentioned, I'll try to fill in just a bit more on this Walthers locomotive with some additional facts on some of the parties involved.  This info can't come close to the close insight you've supllied us with in the Baltic's beginnings, but hopefully will be of additional value in this thread of history. As for George Stock, I don't have any pre-War information on him, although from what I understand I feel it extremely doubtful that he produced a MILW F-6 Baltic, in the same time-frame as Walthers.  His (Geo. Stock) post-War catalogs indicate that he will custom build any locomotive one desires, so its extremely possible he eventually produced this model, albeit in limited numbers. Under "Custom Locomotives," his catalog states: "We can build special locomotives to your order.  All locos are made of brass, with infinite care laid to detail and workmanship.  We have an established reputation for work of this type and we are the only HO firm in the USA that offers this service."  He includes a list of some 17 wheel arrangements, in addition to Articulated locos, and 4-6-4's are one of the 17 wheel arrangement listed, as you might suspect. As for the original 6 volt motor that was supplied with these Baltic kits, as stated in its description in the Walthers pre-War catalogs, "The Varney motor is now standard equipment."  This is as of late 1939.  !940 and 1941 also described the Baltic as using the Varney motor.  I don't know which, if any, motor was included prior to this.  As for the price, the # 6401 kit was listed at $30, and the # 6402 finished loco was listed at $75 from 1939 through 1941. Yes, the Walthers Baltic was difficult to built as you pointed out, as is even stated by Walthers as one of the factors considered when discontinuing it.  In the Walthers 1941 catalog, its stated that -- "The kit requires more effort than most contemporary HO model locomotives but the finished model more than rewards the extra time required."  In 1939 and 1940 however, they seem not to want to admit to its difficulty in saying -- "Since the first models were put out in Novenber, 1936, we have repeatedly improved the kits and simplified the plan of construction, and this is still going on.  We feel we now have a kit that even the beginner can assemble," and they go on to list the improvements. Now, in their first post-War Walthers catalog of 1946, they go into describing their efforts towards 0 gauge locomotives.  For their H0 locomotives, they had this to say -- "Before the war our offerings of steam type locomotives in HO gauge was limited to a single model, that of the Milwaukee Road's Baltic (4-6-4 class F-6).  With the advent of the 'Polydrive' idea for our O gauge locomotives we received many requests to bring out a similar line for HO gauge.  This we plan to do but with all other work of getting our line back into production again we were not able to complete our design for the HO gauge locos.  Neither did we think it wise to continue our old design which was difficult to build."  Needless to say, Walthers never continued making H0 gauge locos after the War,  BTW, "Polydrive" consists of have each driver axle geared, with a continuous worm gear the length of them, driving them all.  They had additionally planned to produce an 0-6-0 Switcher, 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler, 4-6-2 Heavy Pacific, 2-8-2 Mikado and a 4-8-4 Northern in H0 after the War, but they never materialized.  Any Baltics found for sale after the War were left-over pre-War models. Frank Taylor and Carl Traub got together and in December 1943 incorporated the Globe Model Company.  Traub used to write for Model Railroader and had his own Modern Woodwork Company.  At that time, they began working on an H0 scale USRA brass Mikado which they intended on competing against Gordon Varney with.  Although they produced a prototype model, the model didn't make it into production -- they never produced any of them for market.  They did produce prefabricated H0 #6 turnout kits though.  During the War, while Traub's Modern Woodwork Company produced PT Boat and LST hulls (full size, not models) for the War effort, they also supplied Varney with wood components for his line of Mainline Models that were produced during the War, through Globe.   Globe's well known line of metal freight car kits started in production in April 1948. Best,  Ray wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7619	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car >I believe that the name is ATT, I am not sure what it is short for. Will > have to do more checking, I have one of the Combines. And a freight car, > that came in a clear plastic box. I will look at the trucks and screws > when > I find the car. > > Take care, > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 AT&T stood for "American Train & Track". The "made in Brazil" throws me a little though, I thought most of their stuff was Hong Kong. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7620	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers Baltic 4-6-4

----- Original Message ----- From: <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walthers Baltic 4-6-4 > Hi Denny et al, > > As mentioned, I'll try to fill in just a bit more on this Walthers > locomotive > with some additional facts on some of the parties involved. This info > can't > come close to the close insight you've supllied us with in the Baltic's > beginnings, but hopefully will be of additional value in this thread of > history. > > As for George Stock, I don't have any pre-War information on him, although > from what I understand I feel it extremely doubtful that he produced a > MILW F-6 > Baltic, in the same time-frame as Walthers. His (Geo. Stock) post-War > catalogs indicate that he will custom build any locomotive one desires, so > its > extremely possible he eventually produced this model, albeit in limited > numbers. > > Under "Custom Locomotives," his catalog states: "We can build special > locomotives to your order. All locos are made of brass, with infinite > care laid to > detail and workmanship. We have an established reputation for work of > this > type and we are the only HO firm in the USA that offers this service." He > includes a list of some 17 wheel arrangements, in addition to Articulated > locos, and > 4-6-4's are one of the 17 wheel arrangement listed, as you might suspect. > > As for the original 6 volt motor that was supplied with these Baltic kits, > as > stated in its description in the Walthers pre-War catalogs, "The Varney > motor > is now standard equipment." This is as of late 1939. !940 and 1941 also > described the Baltic as using the Varney motor. I don't know which, if > any, > motor was included prior to this. As for the price, the # 6401 kit was > listed at > $30, and the # 6402 finished loco was listed at $75 from 1939 through > 1941. > > Yes, the Walthers Baltic was difficult to built as you pointed out, as is > even stated by Walthers as one of the factors considered when > discontinuing it. > In the Walthers 1941 catalog, its stated that -- "The kit requires more > effort > than most contemporary HO model locomotives but the finished model more > than > rewards the extra time required." In 1939 and 1940 however, they seem not > to > want to admit to its difficulty in saying -- "Since the first models were > put > out in Novenber, 1936, we have repeatedly improved the kits and simplified > the > plan of construction, and this is still going on. We feel we now have a > kit > that even the beginner can assemble," and they go on to list the > improvements. > > Now, in their first post-War Walthers catalog of 1946, they go into > describing their efforts towards 0 gauge locomotives. For their H0 > locomotives, they > had this to say -- "Before the war our offerings of steam type locomotives > in > HO gauge was limited to a single model, that of the Milwaukee Road's > Baltic > (4-6-4 class F-6). With the advent of the 'Polydrive' idea for our O > gauge > locomotives we received many requests to bring out a similar line for HO > gauge. > This we plan to do but with all other work of getting our line back into > production again we were not able to complete our design for the HO gauge > locos. > Neither did we think it wise to continue our old design which was > difficult to > build." Needless to say, Walthers never continued making H0 gauge locos > after > the War, BTW, "Polydrive" consists of have each driver axle geared, with > a > continuous worm gear the length of them, driving them all. They had > additionally > planned to produce an 0-6-0 Switcher, 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler, 4-6-2 Heavy > Pacific, > 2-8-2 Mikado and a 4-8-4 Northern in H0 after the War, but they never > materialized. Any Baltics found for sale after the War were left-over > pre-War models. > > Frank Taylor and Carl Traub got together and in December 1943 incorporated > the Globe Model Company. Traub used to write for Model Railroader and had > his > own Modern Woodwork Company. At that time, they began working on an H0 > scale > USRA brass Mikado which they intended on competing against Gordon Varney > with. > Although they produced a prototype model, the model didn't make it into > production -- they never produced any of them for market. They did > produce > prefabricated H0 #6 turnout kits though. During the War, while Traub's > Modern > Woodwork Company produced PT Boat and LST hulls (full size, not models) > for the War > effort, they also supplied Varney with wood components for his line of > Mainline Models that were produced during the War, through Globe. > Globe's well > known line of metal freight car kits started in production in April 1948. > > Best, Ray wetzel And of course Carl is most famous for making the dies for the Globe/Athearn F-7 that eventually became the locomotive that took HO model railroading out of the realm of the esoteric hobyy for craftsmen and brought it into the mainstream. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7621	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

There are two things to explain the differences in the under frame. One is the age of your model. The current production could be different. Two, the model shown is not a Santa Fe car. It is possible that they may use different underframes when there are obvious differences. The end of the underframe without the air tanks looks as if it could be the same albeit is at the other end. Or maybe we are looking at the other side of the car. But all the other detail on the shell looks the same plus, and this is a big item to me, the same spacing of the roof vents. John Hagen St. Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote: > > Hi John, >   > It looks damn close to me , but I can't tell ( comparing the photo to the model in my hand ) if the roof of the Franteschi model is smooth or corrugated as on my model . Also , it appears that the underframe on mine is in reverse , but that is probably due to someone having put it back in reverse . >   > Thank you as I think we may have a winner . I have never heard of them until today .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7622	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders

I bought a new Varney aluminum tender in 1959--my speculation on materials is that the bronze came first and locos with it couldn't pull much due to the weight--so they went to Al.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Tenders Hi Jim,  I agree with you 100% -- I think the outcome of this puzzles lies with the history of A & S.  As I said before, I tend to think that it (the Vandy brass/bronze tender) may well have been offered by Varney, and would even like to think so, but I don't think we're going to get any documentation of that from any Varney literature if they hadn't even given it a mention up until 1957.  Hopefully, there may be some obscure Varney brochure floating around somewhere that states it.  If only more facts were found from A & S, I feel that this is where the answer rests.  Maybe we need to keep a constant Search going for Adams & Son Foundry on eBay hoping something eventually turns up.  For now, I guess we'll sit on it.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7623	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/14/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Tenders

Glenn,  That's a reasonable possibility, and one that's logical, but without us having anything to substantiate that Varney even offered it, we actually have no way of knowing if that scenario is feasible.  We're assuming Varney offerred them, but that's only it ("assuming").  Without any documentation to back this up there's no way of knowing if they even handled the brass versions.  NONE (pre-War nor post-War) of Varney's catalogs make a mention of this brass version, even though we're fairly sure they sold them -- but we don't actually know.  A & S Foundry started selling them directly in 1948.  Who's to say they didn't start selling them earlier.  But with no literature indicating that anyone sold them at the time in question, its all still up in the air.  With no known Varney literature making mention of this, we're at least hoping maybe some printing from A & S may shed some light on this one way or the other, with some indication of a date.  Probably too much to hope for.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7624	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: need ideas or help

To All,       I am in the process of trying to find a way to correct a flaw that the Athearn 0-6-0 Switcher made around 1962 had. I'm sitting here with three engines having the same problem. Most of these engines have cracked drive gears and cracked spacers on the non driven sets. This has to have something non conductive as the engine had pickup in the engine on both sides. The problem developed because the plastic used could not take the pressure of having the driver shafts slightly larger O.D. then the gear or spacers I.D. Hence they cracked open. It is a type of plastic that will not adhere to anything I have tried including Walthers Goo because the pressure of the drivers shafts just open it up.      I am attempting to fix the gears this way. The gear is 16 teeth (can't be metal) and has extensions on the both sides (roughly 3/16" long. They ride in a special saddle type arrangement that holds the spur gear in place under the worm gear. These "extensions "out from the gear are 1/4" O.D and 1/8" I.D. I am shaving 1/16" of the O.D. and trying to find a sleeve that will go over the end at the same time pulling the cracked gear together and still ride in the saddle. Here I could use metal (preferably brass for smooth turnining since it would be two pieces that don't touch each other and won't short out.      As for the spacers I am looking for a Teflon dowel that would have a 5/8" O.D. ( I could cut it downto size) and drill 1/8" I. D. into it. I need 3 pieces 3/8" long.      Since it actually is a small amount of material I hope I can find from some one. As I no longer work in industry my resources not available. All measurements done by eye and rule, not micrometer        I hope I have explained clearly what I'm doing and what I need. A picture would be worth a 1000 words. I could make a drawing but hope this will suffice. I've tried to get people who spin cast parts in plastic to make new gears but no luck so far.                                                                                                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7625	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

> > AT&T stood for "American Train & Track". The "made in Brazil" throws me a > little though, I thought most of their stuff was Hong Kong. > > Don > I remember from old ads that AT&T imported the line of US prototype passenger cars from Tri-Ang, Great Britain - there were giant ( 1:72?) old time coaches in yellow or green, with no roadname, and several Budd style streamliners ( I have the baggage - dormitory only) . Those streamliners were shorties, and had the doorsteps/ end skirts cast in one piece with the trucks to allow operation on toy train track... initially they had the british loop couplers but I assume those imported in the USA had some sort of horn-hook conversion. The only other AT&T model I remember is a small brass 0-4-0. Re Frateschi --- those streamliners are models of Budd cars that ran ( or maybe still run) in Brazil, with some badge engineering they became Burlington , Santa Fe and whatever .. they are available in Europe from an German representative. Life Like sold some of their stuff some years ago. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7626	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: an addition to collection

I just won an item on Ebay that I had never heard of or seen before. Due to some odd circumstances member Sean Naylor bid for me and I thank him for doing that.  If you go to item     190250466588   VG Vintage HO Western 1000 HP Alco Diesel Switcher kit and look at the pictures.            Maybe some one knows more about this or others by this company. I am also wondering about the little dome on top of the motor that is mounted on the Varney truck. While the power truck looks normal I have never seen this part on top that probably houses a spring for the brushes. Is this fairly common. I think the plans say a DC-60 (pitman ?) motor                                                                                             Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7627	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: need ideas or help

Jim Heckard wrote: > To All, > I am in the process of trying to find a way to correct a flaw > that the Athearn 0-6-0 Switcher made around 1962 had. I'm sitting here > with three engines having the same problem. Most of these engines have > cracked drive gears and cracked spacers on the non driven sets. This > has to have something non conductive as the engine had pickup in the > engine on both sides. The problem developed because the plastic used > could not take the pressure of having the driver shafts slightly > larger O.D. then the gear or spacers I.D. Hence they cracked open. It > is a type of plastic that will not adhere to anything I have tried > including Walthers Goo because the pressure of the drivers shafts just > open it up. > I am attempting to fix the gears this way. The gear is 16 teeth > (can't be metal) and has extensions on the both sides (roughly 3/16" > long. They ride in a special saddle type arrangement that holds the > spur gear in place under the worm gear. These "extensions "out from > the gear are 1/4" O.D and 1/8" I.D. I am shaving 1/16" of the O.D. and > trying to find a sleeve that will go over the end at the same time > pulling the cracked gear together and still ride in the saddle. Here I > could use metal (preferably brass for smooth turnining since it would > be two pieces that don't touch each other and won't short out. > As for the spacers I am looking for a Teflon dowel that would > have a 5/8" O.D. ( I could cut it downto size) and drill 1/8" I. > D. into it. I need 3 pieces 3/8" long. > Since it actually is a small amount of material I hope I can find > from some one. As I no longer work in industry my resources not > available. All measurements done by eye and rule, not micrometer > I hope I have explained clearly what I'm doing and what I need. > A picture would be worth a 1000 words. I could make a drawing but hope > this will suffice. I've tried to get people who spin cast parts in > plastic to make new gears but no luck so far. > > Jim > __. Jim, found this online: http://www.nwsl.com/Catalog/pg059-cat4-31-v0605.pdf Did you investigate if some gear of an Athearn Diesel might work? I think I might be able to get some teflon ( actually, thats bom or polyurethane) ... if you are unable to get it in the USA let me know. A company I deal with makles hydraulic seal components from this stuff. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7628	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: need ideas or help

Consider using glued-together telescoping plastic tubing for the core of the spacers, and an outer sleeve of nylon or other slippery plastic tubing. The grey Plastruct tubing is very resistant to warpage from gluing. If nothing else for now, go all plastic tubing and use a LaBelle Teflon-grease [conveniently plastic-compatible] to get the models running. Since you have to replace the gears, measure them very carefully and consider getting those in new plastic from one of the mega-gear suppliers and build them into a similar plastic tubing axle spacer. Epoxy can be your friend for that chore. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 15, 2008, at 12:35 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: To All,       I am in the process of trying to find a way to correct a flaw that the Athearn 0-6-0 Switcher made around 1962 had. I'm sitting here with three engines having the same problem. Most of these engines have cracked drive gears and cracked spacers on the non driven sets. This has to have something non conductive as the engine had pickup in the engine on both sides. The problem developed because the plastic used could not take the pressure of having the driver shafts slightly larger O.D. then the gear or spacers I.D. Hence they cracked open. It is a type of plastic that will not adhere to anything I have tried including Walthers Goo because the pressure of the drivers shafts just open it up.      I am attempting to fix the gears this way. The gear is 16 teeth (can't be metal) and has extensions on the both sides (roughly 3/16" long. They ride in a special saddle type arrangement that holds the spur gear in place under the worm gear. These "extensions "out from the gear are 1/4" O.D and 1/8" I.D. I am shaving 1/16" of the O.D. and trying to find a sleeve that will go over the end at the same time pulling the cracked gear together and still ride in the saddle. Here I could use metal (preferably brass for smooth turnining since it would be two pieces that don't touch each other and won't short out.      As for the spacers I am looking for a Teflon dowel that would have a 5/8" O.D. ( I could cut it downto size) and drill 1/8" I. D. into it. I need 3 pieces 3/8" long.      Since it actually is a small amount of material I hope I can find from some one. As I no longer work in industry my resources not available. All measurements done by eye and rule, not micrometer        I hope I have explained clearly what I'm doing and what I need. A picture would be worth a 1000 words. I could make a drawing but hope this will suffice. I've tried to get people who spin cast parts in plastic to make new gears but no luck so far.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7629	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: need ideas or help

Hi Gerold,         Went through NWSL years ago and they said they could come up with an entirely new system. A number of us were going to look into it till they said the price per and how many we would have to order. A big problem was metal parts and how that would be insulted and work out. Afraid to take a chance at the price as the cure might be more costly.      We also contacted Athearn and ask if they had anything we could use. They said no. We asked if they could make new gears using the original pattern . They said no because of cost. We said how many are out there might be worth it. They said no  While I haven't checked in about 5 or 6 years with Athearn lately I think NWSL now under new ownership.                                                                                           Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] need ideas or help Jim Heckard wrote: > To All, > I am in the process of trying to find a way to correct a flaw > that the Athearn 0-6-0 Switcher made around 1962 had. I'm sitting here > with three engines having the same problem. Most of these engines have > cracked drive gears and cracked spacers on the non driven sets. This > has to have something non conductive as the engine had pickup in the > engine on both sides. The problem developed because the plastic used > could not take the pressure of having the driver shafts slightly > larger O.D. then the gear or spacers I.D. Hence they cracked open. It > is a type of plastic that will not adhere to anything I have tried > including Walthers Goo because the pressure of the drivers shafts just > open it up. > I am attempting to fix the gears this way. The gear is 16 teeth > (can't be metal) and has extensions on the both sides (roughly 3/16" > long. They ride in a special saddle type arrangement that holds the > spur gear in place under the worm gear. These "extensions "out from > the gear are 1/4" O.D and 1/8" I.D. I am shaving 1/16" of the O.D. and > trying to find a sleeve that will go over the end at the same time > pulling the cracked gear together and still ride in the saddle. Here I > could use metal (preferably brass for smooth turnining since it would > be two pieces that don't touch each other and won't short out. > As for the spacers I am looking for a Teflon dowel that would > have a 5/8" O.D. ( I could cut it downto size) and drill 1/8" I. > D. into it. I need 3 pieces 3/8" long. > Since it actually is a small amount of material I hope I can find > from some one. As I no longer work in industry my resources not > available. All measurements done by eye and rule, not micrometer > I hope I have explained clearly what I'm doing and what I need. > A picture would be worth a 1000 words. I could make a drawing but hope > this will suffice. I've tried to get people who spin cast parts in > plastic to make new gears but no luck so far. > > Jim > __. Jim, found this online: http://www.nwsl. com/Catalog/ pg059-cat4- 31-v0605. pdf Did you investigate if some gear of an Athearn Diesel might work? I think I might be able to get some teflon ( actually, thats bom or polyurethane) ... if you are unable to get it in the USA let me know. A company I deal with makles hydraulic seal components from this stuff. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7630	From: Don Grant	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car

Model Power also imported from Frateschi. Don Grant --- On Mon, 9/15/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Help Identifying Unknown Baggage Car To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 2:22 PM > > AT&T stood for "American Train & Track". The "made in Brazil" throws me a > little though, I thought most of their stuff was Hong Kong. > > Don > I remember from old ads that AT&T imported the line of US prototype passenger cars from Tri-Ang, Great Britain - there were giant ( 1:72?) old time coaches in yellow or green, with no roadname, and several Budd style streamliners ( I have the baggage - dormitory only) . Those streamliners were shorties, and had the doorsteps/ end skirts cast in one piece with the trucks to allow operation on toy train track... initially they had the british loop couplers but I assume those imported in the USA had some sort of horn-hook conversion. The only other AT&T model I remember is a small brass 0-4-0. Re Frateschi --- those streamliners are models of Budd cars that ran ( or maybe still run) in Brazil, with some badge engineering they became Burlington , Santa Fe and whatever .. they are available in Europe from an German representative. Life Like sold some of their stuff some years ago. Gerold ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7631	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: an addition to collection

I have one of those same Varney power trucks. They were advertised very early, before the coming of the F3, as a means of power for your loco kits. The piece at the top was to be mounted to a Z shaped bracket, similar to how you would mount a Lindsay motor. As advertised, they came with sideframes that were later used on passenger cars, I think... I may be wrong about that one. I remember one of the ads saying that coming soon would be the Blomberg sideframes for use on your favorite EMD locos.   Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7632	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: an addition to collection

That is where I have seen that piece.. I pulled a motor out of my parts box a while back with the cast piece and the "Z" bracket attached.   Sean --- On Mon, 9/15/08, MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote: From: MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] an addition to collection To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 8:26 PM I have one of those same Varney power trucks. They were advertised very early, before the coming of the F3, as a means of power for your loco kits. The piece at the top was to be mounted to a Z shaped bracket, similar to how you would mount a Lindsay motor. As advertised, they came with sideframes that were later used on passenger cars, I think... I may be wrong about that one. I remember one of the ads saying that coming soon would be the Blomberg sideframes for use on your favorite EMD locos.   Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7633	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Re: an addition to collection

Thanks for the response. All these years in HO and I never saw that piece mounted on top of a motor before.                                                                                                                                Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: MRLENGAL2U@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] an addition to collection I have one of those same Varney power trucks. They were advertised very early, before the coming of the F3, as a means of power for your loco kits. The piece at the top was to be mounted to a Z shaped bracket, similar to how you would mount a Lindsay motor. As advertised, they came with sideframes that were later used on passenger cars, I think... I may be wrong about that one. I remember one of the ads saying that coming soon would be the Blomberg sideframes for use on your favorite EMD locos. Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7634	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/15/2008
Subject: Red Ball catalog #11

MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2016894787-1221537795=:88162" --0-2016894787-1221537795=:88162 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H'lo All...a quick question for the Red Ball collectors...I recently found = a copy of cat. #11, which has just arrived...ca. 40 pp. with the contempora= ry=C2=A0Red Ball line...it doesn't have a year....=0A=0AThe front cardstock= cover has an inked frame in which I assume a ?photo was glued...there is a= dried glue residue within the frame.=0A=0AIf anyone has this catalog, I wo= uld be interested to know what was in the frame!=0A=0AChrs! Russ=0A=0A=0A= =0A Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail! h= ttp://au.yahoo.com/y7mail --0-2016894787-1221537795=:88162 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he= ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, seri= f;font-size:12pt"><DIV>H'lo All...a quick question for the Red Ball collect= ors...I recently found a copy of cat. #11, which has just arrived...ca. 40 = pp. with the contemporary Red Ball line...it doesn't have a year....</= DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>The front cardstock cover has an inked fram= e in which I assume a ?photo was glued...there is a dried glue residue with= in the frame.</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>If anyone has this catalog, = I would be interested to know what was in the frame!</DIV>=0A<DIV> </D= IV>=0A<DIV>Chrs! Russ</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV></div><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A = <hr size=3D1> Make the switch to the world's best email. =0A<a href=3D"= http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/mail/default/*http://au.yahoo.com/y= 7mail">Get Yahoo!7 Mail</a>.</body></html> --0-2016894787-1221537795=:88162--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7635	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Varney power truck conversion

Attachments : Jim Heckard wrote:           I just won an item on Ebay that I had never heard of or seen before. Due to some odd circumstances member Sean Naylor bid for me and I thank him for doing that.  If you go to item     190250466588   VG Vintage HO Western 1000 HP Alco Diesel Switcher kit and look at the pictures.            Maybe some one knows more about this or others by this company. I am also wondering about the little dome on top of the motor that is mounted on the Varney truck. While the power truck looks normal I have never seen this part on top that probably houses a spring for the brushes. Is this fairly common. I think the plans say a DC-60 (pitman ?) motor                                                                                             Jim Hi Jim, congratulations to the ALCO switcher, good deal. Some years ago I bought a Hallmark M190 gas electric, with desintegrating zamak power truck. After futile attempts to fix this I installed a NOS Varney drive, and as the worm/ gear ratio of the original Hallmark truck is identical to the Varney truck I installed the leftover Hallmark gears and axles into the second truck so they are driven by a shaft from the Varney truck.  - The Varney truck has the same "dome" on top as yours. I attach pictures of my conversion. The thing that hides the "Varney" name on the underside of the power truck is a piece of insulation that holds additional pickup wipers; I run her on on DCC and improved pickup is essential. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7636	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: vintage H0 ?

a naive question - our group name is vintage HO - I never spent much thought on this as in many publications "0" and "O" are identical, but is it usual to refer to "HO" in the USA? In Austria we used to say "Ha Null" - H Zero , as I understand that the designation orgins from "Half Zero Gauge". Just curious. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7637	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

The origin is certainly "Half 0" as in "Half Zero".  But, at least in the U.S., it has become "Half Ohh".   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 12:57 AM Subject: [vintageHO] vintage H0 ? a naive question - our group name is vintage HO - I never spent much thought on this as in many publications "0" and "O" are identical, but is it usual to refer to "HO" in the USA? In Austria we used to say "Ha Null" - H Zero , as I understand that the designation orgins from "Half Zero Gauge". Just curious. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7638	From: John Barlow	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

But don't say "HO", as in "hoe". That has a sexual connotation and one know-it-all then new customer came into a local hobby shop in Denver, not wanting any sales pitch, had his mind set by saying: "I know what I want. Don't try to pitch me. What do you have in HO (pronounced like "hoe")?" There wasn't a dry eye or straight face in the place as he steamed out of the door.   John --- On Tue, 9/16/08, ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> wrote: From: ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] vintage H0 ? To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:57 AM The origin is certainly "Half 0" as in "Half Zero".  But, at least in the U.S., it has become "Half Ohh".   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 12:57 AM Subject: [vintageHO] vintage H0 ? a naive question - our group name is vintage HO - I never spent much thought on this as in many publications "0" and "O" are identical, but is it usual to refer to "HO" in the USA? In Austria we used to say "Ha Null" - H Zero , as I understand that the designation orgins from "Half Zero Gauge". Just curious. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7639	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

As I recall reading......... In publishing, the  letter 'O' just looks better than the numeral 'zero'........ Thus when the printers began using HO in  their works in the early 1900's, soon all publishers were doing the same, and it changed from Half-Zero to the prettier HO. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Sep 16, 2008, at 3:19 AM, John Barlow wrote: But don't say "HO", as in "hoe". That has a sexual connotation and one know-it-all then new customer came into a local hobby shop in Denver, not wanting any sales pitch, had his mind set by saying: "I know what I want. Don't try to pitch me. What do you have in HO (pronounced like "hoe")?" There wasn't a dry eye or straight face in the place as he steamed out of the door.   John --- On Tue, 9/16/08, ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> wrote: From: ckinzer@... <ckinzer@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] vintage H0 ? To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:57 AM The origin is certainly "Half 0" as in "Half Zero".  But, at least in the U.S., it has become "Half Ohh".   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 12:57 AM Subject: [vintageHO] vintage H0 ? a naive question - our group name is vintage HO - I never spent much  thought on this as in many publications "0" and "O" are identical, but  is it usual to refer to "HO" in the USA? In Austria we used to say "Ha  Null" - H Zero , as I understand that the designation orgins from "Half  Zero Gauge". Just curious. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7640	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Gerold, Excellent question and to make a long story short, here goes: In the Tinplate days the gauge and scale were one and the same, and the gauges (established originally by Bing and the Nuremberg toymakers) started at #4 and went down to #1 gauge (45mm) and still lives on in LGB compatible trackwork). The next step down (to 33mm gauge was logically called "0" or "Zero" gauge in the UK. However, typesetters began to use a capital "O" (oh) for typesetting purposes and gradually the trade began to call it the same. So when Bing and later Maerklin began to bring in 'half-0' equipment on 16.5mm track, the term 'aitch oh' (easier to say than Half Oh" came into common verbage. The concurrent rise of model railroading magazines in the US cemented the pronunciation and as the British side of the hobby moved to '00' (Double Oh" in the parlance) there was no competition in the English speaking world for the "aitch oh" pronunciation. Sorry for the tedium. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > a naive question - our group name is vintage HO - I never spent much > thought on this as in many publications "0" and "O" are identical, but > is it usual to refer to "HO" in the USA? In Austria we used to say "Ha > Null" - H Zero , as I understand that the designation orgins from "Half > Zero Gauge". Just curious. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7641	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

It is pronounced "aitch oh" here in the U.S. as to indicate "half oh" as "O" scale is pronounced "oh". Not only did the "0" change to "O" causing the grammatical change but whole "half" anything is not applicable here. Our "O" scale is 1:48 or 1/4 inch to the foot scale in stead of the 7mm scale (or the hard to work with 17/64th inch here) used in other parts of the world. The track gauge did not change, which is why we use a very Russian-like five foot gauge for the majority of "O" scale and all "O" gauge (generally used to denote 3 rail lately) models. Back in earlier days of HO in the U.S. there were a few that tried to change the scale to 1/8 inch. John Hagen St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > a naive question - our group name is vintage HO - I never spent much > thought on this as in many publications "0" and "O" are identical, but > is it usual to refer to "HO" in the USA? In Austria we used to say "Ha > Null" - H Zero , as I understand that the designation orgins from "Half > Zero Gauge". Just curious. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7642	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Red Ball catalog #11

Russ,  There's a photo of an FM H-16-24 Baby Trainmaster H0 model engine in Fairbanks Morse red demonstrator colors.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7643	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Gerold,  Very good point, and one that is often overlooked here in the States.  If you've ever notice, I always write "H0" when I'm referring to the scale (which can be often, in a related message), except when I'm quoting directly from some manufacturer's literature.  I've very often noticed that even some of our early manufacturers at least occasionally (if not consistantly) used "HO" in their writings or descriptions, so I prefer to keep it as that when including their content, as being exactly what they said.  I even stop myself sometimes when doing an eBay search, wondering if I should enter H0 or HO, but I can't recall anyone ever having H0 in their eBay ads.  I guess "HO" is just something that hobbyists here take for granted as correct usage without questioning its origin; maybe just because of the way its pronounced ("atch-oh") here.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7644	From: John Barlow	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

And most O scalers probably haven't heard of something called "Fine Scale", not the five-foot O scale (like Atlas) but down to a protypical four feet, eight and a half inches in O scale. I only knew of one modeler of such in this metro area but that was over two decades ago. That scale precision doesn't even show up on the radar of model railroad marketing.   John --- On Tue, 9/16/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 6:05 AM It is pronounced "aitch oh" here in the U.S. as to indicate "half oh" as "O" scale is pronounced "oh". Not only did the "0" change to "O" causing the grammatical change but whole "half" anything is not applicable here. Our "O" scale is 1:48 or 1/4 inch to the foot scale in stead of the 7mm scale (or the hard to work with 17/64th inch here) used in other parts of the world. The track gauge did not change, which is why we use a very Russian-like five foot gauge for the majority of "O" scale and all "O" gauge (generally used to denote 3 rail lately) models. Back in earlier days of HO in the U.S. there were a few that tried to change the scale to 1/8 inch. John Hagen St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > a naive question - our group name is vintage HO - I never spent much > thought on this as in many publications "0" and "O" are identical, but > is it usual to refer to "HO" in the USA? In Austria we used to say "Ha > Null" - H Zero , as I understand that the designation orgins from "Half > Zero Gauge". Just curious. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7645	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Red Ball catalog #11

Hi Russ,  OOPS, Sorry I goofed again.  That should have read: H-16-44 (not H-16-24) for the baby Trainmaster that Red Ball had this photo of.  I was probably thinking of the regular size Road Trainmaster at this same time -- an H-24-66 designation.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7646	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Mike Bauers wrote: > As I recall reading......... > > In publishing, the letter 'O' just looks better than the numeral > 'zero'........ Thus when the printers began using HO in their works in > the early 1900's, soon all publishers were doing the same, and it > changed from Half-Zero to the prettier HO. So "O" scale (oh) was originally known as "0" scale (zero)? -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7647	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Appreciate advice

To All,                   I appreciate all the advice given to try to fix cracked gears in the old Athearn 0-6-0 Switcher. I will keep all in mind not only for this problem but others that might be similar.           I wish Athearn would just reproduce these gears as there are so many of their engines out there with this problem. Since they  have the "master" for it they could easily spin cast many out of a better material and a lot less expensive then NWSL wanted.                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7648	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice

Jim Heckard wrote: > To All, > I appreciate all the advice given to try to fix > cracked gears in the old Athearn 0-6-0 Switcher. I will keep all in mind > not only for this problem but others that might be similar. > I wish Athearn would just reproduce these gears as there are > so many of their engines out there with this problem. Since they have > the "master" for it they could easily spin cast many out of a better > material and a lot less expensive then NWSL wanted. I think that NWSL is probably the best bet for any sort of mechanical replacement parts for old models. I bought an old NPP Burlington Zephyr with cracked gears for $300 about 8 years ago. That was a fraction of its value. Once I bought the gears from NWSL and paid a hobby shop to install them I had a model valued well above what I put into it. I have two GN articulateds made by Tenshodo that both have vertical gear towers between the driver sets that squeal like banshees. I'm fairly certain that the replacement drive system from NWSL will cure that problem too. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "Masturbation? Don't knock it. It's sex with someone I love." -Woody Allen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7649	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice

Japanese articulateds, (Tenshodo and United), are notorious for the gear noise in the spur gears. Before going for new gearboxes at NWSL you might try lapping them in with jeweler's rouge. Apply the rouge to the teeth of the spur gears and run under power in both directions until the noise dies down. Then clean out the rouge and lubricate with LaBelle. I'm sorry but I don't presently know of a source for the jeweler's rouge. Perhaps someone else in this group can help. The stuff I have I picked up more than twenty years ago. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: > > I have two GN articulateds made by Tenshodo that both have vertical > gear towers between the driver sets that squeal like banshees. I'm > fairly certain that the replacement drive system from NWSL will cure > that problem too. > > -- > > Rick Jones > > The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad > http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ > > "Masturbation? Don't knock it. It's sex with someone I love." > -Woody Allen >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7650	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Hi John,   Yes, I've heard of 1/4" finescale, also known as Proto48, there is also another group known as Proto87 modelers, they are out there, and P48 is getting more popular, there are far more 2 rail and P48 modelers out there than folks realize........:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 9:51:00 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? And most O scalers probably haven't heard of something called "Fine Scale", not the five-foot O scale (like Atlas) but down to a protypical four feet, eight and a half inches in O scale. I only knew of one modeler of such in this metro area but that was over two decades ago. That scale precision doesn't even show up on the radar of model railroad marketing.   John --- On Tue, 9/16/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 6:05 AM It is pronounced "aitch oh" here in the U.S. as to indicate "half oh" as "O" scale is pronounced "oh". Not only did the "0" change to "O" causing the grammatical change but whole "half" anything is not applicable here. Our "O" scale is 1:48 or 1/4 inch to the foot scale in stead of the 7mm scale (or the hard to work with 17/64th inch here) used in other parts of the world. The track gauge did not change, which is why we use a very Russian-like five foot gauge for the majority of "O" scale and all "O" gauge (generally used to denote 3 rail lately) models. Back in earlier days of HO in the U.S. there were a few that tried to change the scale to 1/8 inch. John Hagen St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > a naive question - our group name is vintage HO - I never spent much > thought on this as in many publications "0" and "O" are identical, but > is it usual to refer to "HO" in the USA? In Austria we used to say "Ha > Null" - H Zero , as I understand that the designation orgins from "Half > Zero Gauge". Just curious. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7651	From: Chris B	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Attachments : Ray, Sean, after recent discussions on looking for unidentified or mislabeled ebay finds, I've continued to see what comes up, especially via misspellings like "Farney" or "Hobby town". I've shut down my own acct, so I'm just window shopping for fun.    While none of these are rare HO or vintage steam, they are all on ebay today with these listings, and they're a good example of the budget priced vintage metal diesels I was finding this way.  By comparison, IMHO, the same items properly listed would be generating 3 times the interest and bids.    The PSM Brill Trolley kit not only has a weak description, but had no thumbnail photo.  Only the actual item page showed the item.  I've attached one composite image I made up that displays photos from each page that confirms the item's actual identity.   Chris   My description Ebay description             Two hobbytown powered E3s, 1 “Farney F3) E3 A-B + 3ct F3A 2ct F3B Units All Metal Shells $9.99 $12.50 1 captainabear 1d 05h 33m             )     Pennsylvania Scale Models Brill Trolley kit unbuilt w box 20 Plus years Vintage HO models Trains or Kits & Parts $14.99 Not specified 1 woodfast1 20h 36m             )     Two powered hobbytown RS-3s  2ct RS-3 Powered & 2ct H-16-44 Dummies All Metal Shells $9.99 $10.00 1 captainabear 1d 05h 02m                   Hobbytown Yard Switcher drivetrain Pennsylvania Train Engine HO Scale Vintage 1478 $9.00 $6.95 3 wisteria42 6h 01m                   1 powered “hobby town” metal road switcher Beaver Valley RR Diesel Engine $9.99 Not specified 0 malibuick 6d 06h 54m                   1 built Keystone/NWSL  GE 44T kit KADEE BRASS HO TRAIN ENGINE $16.99 $11.99 0 collectable4sale4u 6d 06h 22m           ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:13:14 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! Hi Ray,   Glad to help.   You know, you can even block certain sellers. I like to block those sellers that list hundreds of items at a time and there seems to be no word I can pick to exclude them.   If you find you have a ton of listings from one or several sellers.. open one of their listings (in a separate page).. copy their user name and go back to your search page. Click on the "advanced search" next to the search browser and a page will open where you will find the option to exclude a seller.. past their name into it.   You can chose to save this search and be notified when new items appear matching your results. If you can refine a search down to 100 items or less, I suggest you save it.   With so few items, it will probably be 1-3 times a week a couple items will come up and you will not have to do the process all over again.    Makes it easy as well, to make small changes to search words when you have one already set up with all of your exclusions. There is a limit on the number of excluded words. I tend to use almost all of them. I do have 44 searches however...All serve me quite well.   Sean.. --- On Thu, 9/11/08, erieberk@wmconnect. com <erieberk@wmconnect. com> wrote: From: erieberk@wmconnect. com <erieberk@wmconnect. com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 8:39 PM Thanks Sean and Chris,  Those little bits of info on how best to find obscure items in obscure manners is sure a help.  I wouldn't have thought of how to go about it, but after reading what steps (and types of words) to use, it all makes perfectly good sense.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7652	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice

Bill DeFoe wrote: > > I'm sorry but I don't presently know of a source for the jeweler's > rouge. Perhaps someone else in this group can help. The stuff I > have I picked up more than twenty years ago. I would guess a lapidary hobbyist's shop would have something usable. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "Listen! Do you smell something?" -Dr. Raymond Stantz, "Ghostbusters"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7653	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice

a quick "google" search turned up dozens of vendors. Here is one of the many: <http://www.hobbytool.com/jewelersrougepolishingcompound.aspx> Mike Rick Jones wrote: > > > Bill DeFoe wrote: > > > > I'm sorry but I don't presently know of a source for the jeweler's > > rouge. Perhaps someone else in this group can help. The stuff I > > have I picked up more than twenty years ago. > > I would guess a lapidary hobbyist's shop would have something usable. > > -- > > Rick Jones

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7654	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Yes, O scale was part of the series of gauge 1, gauge 2, and gauge 3 sizes of the first standardized track gauges and their semi-related scales. Gradually the model railroad gauges and sizes were reduced in stages to better fit in average homes. The hobby got more and more popular as enough houses got the new-fangled electricity and you could run model trains by hooking them to controllers powered by the wall outlet, while no longer having to use liquid batteries or live steam for propulsion. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 16, 2008, at 10:03 AM, Rick Jones wrote: > Mike Bauers wrote: >> As I recall reading......... >> >> In publishing, the letter 'O' just looks better than the numeral >> 'zero'........ Thus when the printers began using HO in their >> works in >> the early 1900's, soon all publishers were doing the same, and it >> changed from Half-Zero to the prettier HO. > > So "O" scale (oh) was originally known as "0" scale (zero)?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7655	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Chris,  There are some very reasonably priced finds there.  I guess you have to be innovative to come up with certain key words.  You're certainly not gonna run through the alphabet though in your searches for Barney, Carney, Darney and Garney after you do Farney (or are you?), but it does show that these mis-spellings will not reach any of the Varney searchers, if you're lucky enough to stumble on them.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7656	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Appreciate advice

Back when Athearn was Athearn, that would have been a possibility. Today under Horizon, Athearn doesn't even want to sell parts for their CURRENT production, much less for models that are almost 50 years old. I'm sure Irv is turning over in his grave. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:11 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Appreciate advice To All, I appreciate all the advice given to try to fix cracked gears in the old Athearn 0-6-0 Switcher. I will keep all in mind not only for this problem but others that might be similar. I wish Athearn would just reproduce these gears as there are so many of their engines out there with this problem. Since they have the "master" for it they could easily spin cast many out of a better material and a lot less expensive then NWSL wanted. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7657	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Mike Bauers wrote: > > Gradually the model railroad gauges and sizes were reduced in stages > to better fit in average homes. The hobby got more and more popular as > enough houses got the new-fangled electricity and you could run model > trains by hooking them to controllers powered by the wall outlet, > while no longer having to use liquid batteries or live steam for > propulsion. Though, surprisingly, battery power lasted for quite a while. I had a slot car set in the later '50s (don't recall the mfg.) that used a pair of the tall, round dry cells for power. Those dry cells had a fair bit of power. I recall wiring it up to play with it on one occasion and for some reason the wire I was trying to attach to a screw terminal zapped me and actually sliced into my finger like a surgeon's electric scalpel. Maybe I had some sweat or moisture on my hands. -- Rick Jones The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/ "Ver-r-r-r-r-ry interesting." -Arte Johnson, "Rowan And Martin's Laugh-In"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7658	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

----- Original Message ----- From: <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! > Chris, There are some very reasonably priced finds there. I guess you > have > to be innovative to come up with certain key words. You're certainly not > gonna run through the alphabet though in your searches for Barney, Carney, > Darney > and Garney after you do Farney (or are you?), but it does show that these > mis-spellings will not reach any of the Varney searchers, if you're lucky > enough > to stumble on them. Ray </HTML> > Don't limit your categories either. The plastic Varney HO fords, Studebakers and trucks generally sell for around % 5.00 EACH. A couple years ago I got a box of about 15 assorted for ten bucks total because the seller had them listed under "die cast toys". Of course my favorite is the very fuzzy picture of a "box car with paper on the sides". I paid 25 CENTS for a Silver Streak reefer with Central Valleys and Kadees. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7659	From: sean naylor	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

That is the point Ray. Find the ones no one else does. Sean ---------- Sent from the Cingular network using Mobile Email ------Original Message------ From: <erieberk@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Tue, Sep 16, 2008 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! Chris, There are some very reasonably priced finds there. I guess you have to be innovative to come up with certain key words. You're certainly not gonna run through the alphabet though in your searches for Barney, Carney, Darney and Garney after you do Farney (or are you?), but it does show that these mis-spellings will not reach any of the Varney searchers, if you're lucky enough to stumble on them. Ray </HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7660	From: Dst8596587@aol.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

The correct proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is commonly believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet compared to 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance between the rails (4 feet / 8 and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by the model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in a fine scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough and began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in the late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for reduction of full scale measurements,, the quarter inch crowd won out. Both fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing. -----Original Message----- From: John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 8:51 am Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? And most O scalers probably haven't heard of something called "Fine Scale", not the five-foot O scale (like Atlas) but down to a protypical four feet, eight and a half inches in O scale. I only knew of one modeler of such in this metro area but that was over two decades ago. That scale precision doesn't even show up on the radar of model railroad marketing.   John --- On Tue, 9/16/08, John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> wrote: From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 6:05 AM It is pronounced "aitch oh" here in the U.S. as to indicate "half oh" as "O" scale is pronounced "oh". Not only did the "0" change to "O" causing the grammatical change but whole "half" anything is not applicable here. Our "O" scale is 1:48 or 1/4 inch to the foot scale in stead of the 7mm scale (or the hard to work with 17/64th inch here) used in other parts of the world. The track gauge did not change, which is why we use a very Russian-like five foot gauge for the majority of "O" scale and all "O" gauge (generally used to denote 3 rail lately) models. Back in earlier days of HO in the U.S. there were a few that tried to change the scale to 1/8 inch. John Hagen St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > a naive question - our group name is vintage HO - I never spent much > thought on this as in many publications "0" and "O" are identical, but > is it usual to refer to "HO" in the USA? In Austria we used to say "Ha > Null" - H Zero , as I understand that the designation orgins from "Half > Zero Gauge". Just curious. > > Gerold > Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7661	From: Chris B	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

in fact I don't search for misspellings, they just come up when I search using terms like old, vintage, metal, runs, and then when I look to see why no one has bid on the item, it sometimes turns out they have misspelled varney or some contemporary maker.  "unknown" doesn't work for these. for fun today I tried Varrney, and got nothing.  this Farney only came up on a search for old and runs. I do regularly search for "hobby town" since it's a fairly common error because sellers reading the name off the bottom of the trucks often are only familiar with the hobbyshop name, and spell it that way in their listing.   of course this means it never comes up when searching for "hobbytown". I do stay away from terms like loco, locomotive, or diesel, but engine and motor are often cues that identify motive power rather than rolling stock.  same with "runs", or "doesn't run" ----- Original Message ---- From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:41:25 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! Chris,  There are some very reasonably priced finds there.  I guess you have to be innovative to come up with certain key words.  You're certainly not gonna run through the alphabet though in your searches for Barney, Carney, Darney and Garney after you do Farney (or are you?), but it does show that these mis-spellings will not reach any of the Varney searchers, if you're lucky enough to stumble on them.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7662	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

and not to be confused with commentary by Santa Claus or the Jolly Green Giant 8^) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7663	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Dst8596587 (Unsigned) Or 1:45 would equal 7 mm as the difference between 17/64 and 7 mm is quite small. 0.26563 for 17/64 and 0.27559 fort 7 mm. Back when "O" scale got started here, I there few who knew from metric scale other than mathematicians, scientists and certain military departments. So they converted to the closest fraction, 17/64ths, and, as you stated, most took the easy way and used 1/4" for the models whilst continuing to use the same track. The slightly larger 7 mm would make the HO ratio half oh. I am not very familiar with "O" finescale. There is a rather large proto:48 contingent around with several manufacturers supplying various components. They use, per their name, 1:48 and a corrected track gauge of 1.177" as opposed to the commonly used 1.250". John Hagen St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@... wrote: > > The correct?proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is commonly believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet compared to 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance between the rails (4 feet / 8?and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by the model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in a fine scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough and began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in the late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for reduction of full scale measurements,, the quarter inch crowd won out. Both fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7664	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Chris,  Okay, I read you loud and clear.  Basicly you don't need to use very many of the different words you've already mentioned.  That makes it pretty easy.  Makes me kind of wonder what gems might have been offered at one time that no one thought of coming up with the right key word for, only because the owner didn't know what he had. Kind of reminds me of the "manufacturing date" some people think they've very cleverly discovered when they come upon the part number cast into the inside of the cab roof of a metal Varney F-3 (A-Unit), 1940.  When seeing this, they often accompany this "date" with "vintage."  If they don't happen to see that, they more often find the part number 1946 cast into the roof insert and assume that's the manufacturing date.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7665	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Hi Ray,   A search for 40s 50s and 60s by themselves often leads top some interesting finds for me..   Sean --- On Tue, 9/16/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 11:00 PM Chris,  Okay, I read you loud and clear.  Basicly you don't need to use very many of the different words you've already mentioned.  That makes it pretty easy.  Makes me kind of wonder what gems might have been offered at one time that no one thought of coming up with the right key word for, only because the owner didn't know what he had. Kind of reminds me of the "manufacturing date" some people think they've very cleverly discovered when they come upon the part number cast into the inside of the cab roof of a metal Varney F-3 (A-Unit), 1940.  When seeing this, they often accompany this "date" with "vintage."  If they don't happen to see that, they more often find the part number 1946 cast into the roof insert and assume that's the manufacturing date.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7666	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/16/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

yes--as in "3, 2,,, 1,,,0,, 00,,,H0,, 000" gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7667	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

1:45 is NOT finescale. It is a more correct scale for 1.25" gauge track. So is 7mm or 1:43 The "finescale" movement has stayed with the convenient 1:48 / 1/4" scale and corrected the track gauge for the scale. Early on was "Q Gauge" at 1 3/16" gauge-- 4'9" gauge. Minton Cronkhite's layouts for exhibits were Q Gauge. Lots easier to just change the trucks than have to bypass nice commercial models. Then in the fifties Cliff Grandt and others in the Alameda County CA area,, among others, started the 1/4" AAR movement, scaling down the full size wheel contours to 1/4" scale. This gradually morphed into the "Proto 48" movement. There was a newsletter, but I haven't seen one in several years. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? > Dst8596587 (Unsigned) > > Or 1:45 would equal 7 mm as the difference between 17/64 and 7 mm is > quite small. 0.26563 for 17/64 and 0.27559 fort 7 mm. Back when "O" > scale got started here, I there few who knew from metric scale other > than mathematicians, scientists and certain military departments. So > they converted to the closest fraction, 17/64ths, and, as you stated, > most took the easy way and used 1/4" for the models whilst continuing > to use the same track. The slightly larger 7 mm would make the HO > ratio half oh. > > I am not very familiar with "O" finescale. There is a rather large > proto:48 contingent around with several manufacturers supplying > various components. They use, per their name, 1:48 and a corrected > track gauge of 1.177" as opposed to the commonly used 1.250". > > John Hagen > St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@... wrote: >> >> The correct?proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is commonly > believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet compared to > 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance between > the rails (4 feet / 8?and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by the > model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in a fine > scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train > manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough and > began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It > resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in the > late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for reduction > of full scale measurements,, the quarter inch crowd won out. Both > fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7668	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Here in the United States, the correct proportion for O scale is 1/48 scale, or 1/4 inch equals 1 foot, most modelers of the early days here in the US would use tinplate mechanisms and scale superstructures, these guys later became known as "HiRailers", today being a HiRailer is very popular, you use scale equipment but rather use 3 rail appliances, and hence, its  more popular than ever.   As one who spent years modeling in O scale 2 rail, the 7 mm modelers of Europe, and the 1/43 scale modelers of the UK, have very well perfected the art of O scale in their respective ratios, however, here in the US, most O scalers have stuck with the tried and true 1/4 inch scale, even though we use the same gauge track, (thanks to the late Joshua Lionel Cowan), if you look at a normal 2 rail O scale model, and a Proto48 model side by side, say the San Juan Car Shops Fowler boxcar, you couldn't tell the difference, even by looking at the trucks if both models were built using San Juan trucks, you might be able to tell by looking at the coupler, as the stock O scale car would most likely have Kadee couplers however.   While true that some modelers tried working with 17/64 scale, it never really caught on, as by the time they started modeling in that off scale, most O scalers were stuck with 1/4 inch scale at that time, in the early 1960's, there were a few who started the finescale, commonly refered to then as AAR Finescale, that term doesn't get used much  anymore except by a few narrow gauge modelers, since On3 and On2 have always been detailed to finescale standards..   For those who are interested in learning more about Proto48, follow this link http://www.proto48.org/   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: "Dst8596587@..." <Dst8596587@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:54:45 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? The correct proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is commonly believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet compared to 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance between the rails (4 feet / 8 and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by the model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in a fine scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough and began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in the late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for reduction of full scale measurements, , the quarter inch crowd won out. Both fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing. -----Original Message----- From: John Barlow <jdenver4150@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 8:51 am Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? > Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7669	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Sean, That's interesting in itself -- kind of logical in a way.  Should I assume you need to include one or both of the punctuation marks when you put in that kind of a search (like '40's, '50's and '60's)?  Or do you get even better result with 1940's, 1950's, etc., or do you need to try them all?  I guess there are a good number of things to try, not knowing what will work.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7670	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

Hi Ray,   I search titles only and punctuation does not seem to make a difference.   Does not yeild too many results, but often gets some poorly described items.   Sean --- On Wed, 9/17/08, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote: From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 7:12 AM Sean, That's interesting in itself -- kind of logical in a way.  Should I assume you need to include one or both of the punctuation marks when you put in that kind of a search (like '40's, '50's and '60's)?  Or do you get even better result with 1940's, 1950's, etc., or do you need to try them all?  I guess there are a good number of things to try, not knowing what will work.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7671	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

I tried it without the front punctuation and found it to give very interesting results. I'll have to go back and try it both ways..... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Sep 17, 2008, at 6:12 AM, erieberk@... wrote: Sean, That's interesting in itself -- kind of logical in a way.  Should I assume you need to include one or both of the punctuation marks when you put in that kind of a search (like '40's, '50's and '60's)?  Or do you get even better result with 1940's, 1950's, etc., or do you need to try them all?  I guess there are a good number of things to try, not knowing what will work.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7672	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those!

That is just it.. Look for different and strange things...   Even the words "strange" or "different" could yeild results. Is it NOT too hard to imagine that the novice seller of vintage HO items tring to describe say a snow flanger, plow or even a track cleaner would use those words..  It is not too uncommon to see a title "Srange HO train piece"  Do a search for any one or combo of the other three words and you will yeild 1000's of results.. do a search for the word strange and i bet you will get less than 10 in the title.. then do a search with title and description and you will not be over 100.    I even do searches for "was" "dad" "pap" "grandfather""('s)" "found" etc...   I try to stay as far away from the correct description as I possibly can.  Remember to subreact out obvious high price words, like "-brass"   Do not put quotes around everything either. train peice and "train peice" will yeild different results. The second looks for the phrase only, where as the first will find those words, no matter where they fall in the listing or description.   I even found my Brass T1 4-4-4-4 in "Vintage & Antique toys" I paid $17 including s/h. It pays to just do a bit of work and creativity in your searches. Described as an antique toy train.   Best thing I can say Ray is to just experiment.. You will bee amazed and bored with the results.. It is like fishing.. or dating.. you never know what you will get..   Sean --- On Wed, 9/17/08, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Walther's "Shuttle Jack" - I have one of those! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 8:10 AM I tried it without the front punctuation and found it to give very interesting results. I'll have to go back and try it both ways..... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Sep 17, 2008, at 6:12 AM, erieberk@wmconnect. com wrote: Sean, That's interesting in itself -- kind of logical in a way.  Should I assume you need to include one or both of the punctuation marks when you put in that kind of a search (like '40's, '50's and '60's)?  Or do you get even better result with 1940's, 1950's, etc., or do you need to try them all?  I guess there are a good number of things to try, not knowing what will work.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7673	From: topstokes	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >I apologize for any misconceptions I may have caused. I was refering to the original post and referenced my copy of Model Railways published by Popular Science in 1936 for my data. So "Q" guage and AAR 1/4" would not even be on the horizon. In truth there is no scale measurement relative to track width for "Zero guage" just recognized ones. Fine scale as a term can be found in NEM and NMRA references as well as some publications predating 1940. The nice thing about being 70 is you can always blame your memory when in doubt. Guess I'll go play with my "E" gauge train, which is 1/8 inch to the foot. I think!! Thats really what model railroading is all about, sharing information and having fun. topstokes > 1:45 is NOT finescale. It is a more correct scale for 1.25" gauge track. > So is 7mm or 1:43 > > The "finescale" movement has stayed with the convenient 1:48 / 1/4" scale > and corrected the track gauge for the scale. Early on was "Q Gauge" at 1 > 3/16" gauge-- 4'9" gauge. Minton Cronkhite's layouts for exhibits were Q > Gauge. Lots easier to just change the trucks than have to bypass nice > commercial models. > > Then in the fifties Cliff Grandt and others in the Alameda County CA area,, > among others, started the 1/4" AAR movement, scaling down the full size > wheel contours to 1/4" scale. This gradually morphed into the "Proto 48" > movement. There was a newsletter, but I haven't seen one in several years. > gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:37 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? > > > > Dst8596587 (Unsigned) > > > > Or 1:45 would equal 7 mm as the difference between 17/64 and 7 mm is > > quite small. 0.26563 for 17/64 and 0.27559 fort 7 mm. Back when "O" > > scale got started here, I there few who knew from metric scale other > > than mathematicians, scientists and certain military departments. So > > they converted to the closest fraction, 17/64ths, and, as you stated, > > most took the easy way and used 1/4" for the models whilst continuing > > to use the same track. The slightly larger 7 mm would make the HO > > ratio half oh. > > > > I am not very familiar with "O" finescale. There is a rather large > > proto:48 contingent around with several manufacturers supplying > > various components. They use, per their name, 1:48 and a corrected > > track gauge of 1.177" as opposed to the commonly used 1.250". > > > > John Hagen > > St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@ wrote: > >> > >> The correct?proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is commonly > > believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet compared to > > 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance between > > the rails (4 feet / 8?and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by the > > model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in a fine > > scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train > > manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough and > > began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It > > resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in the > > late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for reduction > > of full scale measurements,, the quarter inch crowd won out. Both > > fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7674	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: need ID help

Attachments : Hi All,      I'm searching for help to ID some cast Brass pieces I got from Ebay a couple of years ago. They are HO models of A & B shells for a set of FT's. The box they came in might not be original but is the right size and has this written on it                             Diesel Locomotive    Freight or Combination Passenger Freight     THEO. R. Parker    801 Wylie Avenue    Pittsburgh 19, PA   "The wholesaler who never retails". Even if this is the box the seller sold them in, it gives no indication of who made them. (Sean, How about running over there and asking them)             Over the years our HOSC&H-SIG has had some very similar models with just about the same request. WHO ???  One showed a drawing of an FT that has the same detail shown but states "metal is whitish silver, probably zinc alloy. Has added "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell (never heard of Beeman).                    Another very close match are pictures of GARCO FT's. They have GARCO in raised letters inside the body and Challenger in raised (CMC / Challenger Model Company) letters on the other. This is cast Aluminum. My shells have no names cast inside             Third are pictures of a set (A&B)  of FT's labeled   Unidentified Cast Brass FT Diesel shells.    These match  mine except a lot rougher around the edges with a lot of "flash".             I am only talking about FT shells.  While two of the examples are the wrong material, but could have been cast in other materials also,many guesses have given familiar vintage names. Beeman and Challenger which I never heard of. Dallas Model Craft and their later name Diesel Model Company. The name GARCO and that ever present,at that time, A&S (Adams and Son) casting. Add Cambron to that.            ANY IDEAS                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7675	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

a 17/64" scale car will really stand out in a train of 1/4" cars, --particularly a passenger car  hoppers and tank cars will blend in as their size varies.  The Thomas 0-4-0 was 17/64" as were a lot of pre-war Lobaugh items.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:33 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? Here in the United States, the correct proportion for O scale is 1/48 scale, or 1/4 inch equals 1 foot, most modelers of the early days here in the US would use tinplate mechanisms and scale superstructures, these guys later became known as "HiRailers", today being a HiRailer is very popular, you use scale equipment but rather use 3 rail appliances, and hence, its  more popular than ever.   As one who spent years modeling in O scale 2 rail, the 7 mm modelers of Europe, and the 1/43 scale modelers of the UK, have very well perfected the art of O scale in their respective ratios, however, here in the US, most O scalers have stuck with the tried and true 1/4 inch scale, even though we use the same gauge track, (thanks to the late Joshua Lionel Cowan), if you look at a normal 2 rail O scale model, and a Proto48 model side by side, say the San Juan Car Shops Fowler boxcar, you couldn't tell the difference, even by looking at the trucks if both models were built using San Juan trucks, you might be able to tell by looking at the coupler, as the stock O scale car would most likely have Kadee couplers however.   While true that some modelers tried working with 17/64 scale, it never really caught on, as by the time they started modeling in that off scale, most O scalers were stuck with 1/4 inch scale at that time, in the early 1960's, there were a few who started the finescale, commonly refered to then as AAR Finescale, that term doesn't get used much  anymore except by a few narrow gauge modelers, since On3 and On2 have always been detailed to finescale standards..   For those who are interested in learning more about Proto48, follow this link http://www.proto48.org/   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: "Dst8596587@..." <Dst8596587@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:54:45 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? The correct proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is commonly believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet compared to 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance between the rails (4 feet / 8 and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by the model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in a fine scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough and began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in the late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for reduction of full scale measurements, , the quarter inch crowd won out. Both fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing. -----Original Message----- From: John Barlow <jdenver4150@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 8:51 am Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? > Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7676	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Hey--hold on a minnit! I didn't write that. (from here to "the following . . . " gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "topstokes" <topstokes@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:45 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >>I apologize for any misconceptions I may have caused. I was refering > to the original post and referenced my copy of Model Railways > published by Popular Science in 1936 for my data. So "Q" guage and > AAR 1/4" would not even be on the horizon. In truth there is no scale > measurement relative to track width for "Zero guage" just recognized > ones. Fine scale as a term can be found in NEM and NMRA references as > well as some publications predating 1940. The nice thing about being > 70 is you can always blame your memory when in doubt. Guess I'll go > play with my "E" gauge train, which is 1/8 inch to the foot. I > think!! Thats really what model railroading is all about, sharing > information and having fun. > The following is what I wrote--gj >> 1:45 is NOT finescale. It is a more correct scale for 1.25" gauge > track. >> So is 7mm or 1:43 >> >> The "finescale" movement has stayed with the convenient 1:48 / 1/4" > scale >> and corrected the track gauge for the scale. Early on was "Q > Gauge" at 1 >> 3/16" gauge-- 4'9" gauge. Minton Cronkhite's layouts for exhibits > were Q >> Gauge. Lots easier to just change the trucks than have to bypass > nice >> commercial models. >> >> Then in the fifties Cliff Grandt and others in the Alameda County > CA area,, >> among others, started the 1/4" AAR movement, scaling down the full > size >> wheel contours to 1/4" scale. This gradually morphed into > the "Proto 48" >> movement. There was a newsletter, but I haven't seen one in > several years. >> gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:37 PM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? >> >> >> > Dst8596587 (Unsigned) >> > >> > Or 1:45 would equal 7 mm as the difference between 17/64 and 7 mm > is >> > quite small. 0.26563 for 17/64 and 0.27559 fort 7 mm. Back > when "O" >> > scale got started here, I there few who knew from metric scale > other >> > than mathematicians, scientists and certain military departments. > So >> > they converted to the closest fraction, 17/64ths, and, as you > stated, >> > most took the easy way and used 1/4" for the models whilst > continuing >> > to use the same track. The slightly larger 7 mm would make the HO >> > ratio half oh. >> > >> > I am not very familiar with "O" finescale. There is a rather large >> > proto:48 contingent around with several manufacturers supplying >> > various components. They use, per their name, 1:48 and a corrected >> > track gauge of 1.177" as opposed to the commonly used 1.250". >> > >> > John Hagen >> > St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI >> > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@ wrote: >> >> >> >> The correct?proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is > commonly >> > believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet > compared to >> > 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance > between >> > the rails (4 feet / 8?and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by > the >> > model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in a > fine >> > scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train >> > manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough and >> > began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It >> > resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in the >> > late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for > reduction >> > of full scale measurements,, the quarter inch crowd won out. Both >> > fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing. >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7677	From: topstokes	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

GLEN YOU ARE RIGHT, I WROTE IT. GUESS SOME HOW THE MACHINE REFUSES TO RECOGNIZE ME. TAKE CARE. TOPSTOKES --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Hey--hold on a minnit! I didn't write that. (from here to "the following . > . . " gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "topstokes" <topstokes@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:45 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > >>I apologize for any misconceptions I may have caused. I was refering > > to the original post and referenced my copy of Model Railways > > published by Popular Science in 1936 for my data. So "Q" guage and > > AAR 1/4" would not even be on the horizon. In truth there is no scale > > measurement relative to track width for "Zero guage" just recognized > > ones. Fine scale as a term can be found in NEM and NMRA references as > > well as some publications predating 1940. The nice thing about being > > 70 is you can always blame your memory when in doubt. Guess I'll go > > play with my "E" gauge train, which is 1/8 inch to the foot. I > > think!! Thats really what model railroading is all about, sharing > > information and having fun. > > > > The following is what I wrote--gj > > >> 1:45 is NOT finescale. It is a more correct scale for 1.25" gauge > > track. > >> So is 7mm or 1:43 > >> > >> The "finescale" movement has stayed with the convenient 1:48 / 1/4" > > scale > >> and corrected the track gauge for the scale. Early on was "Q > > Gauge" at 1 > >> 3/16" gauge-- 4'9" gauge. Minton Cronkhite's layouts for exhibits > > were Q > >> Gauge. Lots easier to just change the trucks than have to bypass > > nice > >> commercial models. > >> > >> Then in the fifties Cliff Grandt and others in the Alameda County > > CA area,, > >> among others, started the 1/4" AAR movement, scaling down the full > > size > >> wheel contours to 1/4" scale. This gradually morphed into > > the "Proto 48" > >> movement. There was a newsletter, but I haven't seen one in > > several years. > >> gj > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:37 PM > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? > >> > >> > >> > Dst8596587 (Unsigned) > >> > > >> > Or 1:45 would equal 7 mm as the difference between 17/64 and 7 mm > > is > >> > quite small. 0.26563 for 17/64 and 0.27559 fort 7 mm. Back > > when "O" > >> > scale got started here, I there few who knew from metric scale > > other > >> > than mathematicians, scientists and certain military departments. > > So > >> > they converted to the closest fraction, 17/64ths, and, as you > > stated, > >> > most took the easy way and used 1/4" for the models whilst > > continuing > >> > to use the same track. The slightly larger 7 mm would make the HO > >> > ratio half oh. > >> > > >> > I am not very familiar with "O" finescale. There is a rather large > >> > proto:48 contingent around with several manufacturers supplying > >> > various components. They use, per their name, 1:48 and a corrected > >> > track gauge of 1.177" as opposed to the commonly used 1.250". > >> > > >> > John Hagen > >> > St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > >> > > >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@ wrote: > >> >> > >> >> The correct?proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is > > commonly > >> > believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet > > compared to > >> > 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance > > between > >> > the rails (4 feet / 8?and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by > > the > >> > model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in a > > fine > >> > scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train > >> > manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough and > >> > began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It > >> > resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in the > >> > late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for > > reduction > >> > of full scale measurements,, the quarter inch crowd won out. Both > >> > fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7678	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: need ID help

I wonder......... It could the work of a modeler that had access to a foundry and did this  as a personal project. Backyard sand-casting was common enough back in the thirty's and forty's Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Sep 17, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi All,      I'm searching for help to ID some cast Brass pieces I got from Ebay a couple of years ago. They are HO models of A & B shells for a set of FT's. The box they came in might not be original but is the right size and has this written on it                             Diesel Locomotive    Freight or Combination Passenger Freight     THEO. R. Parker    801 Wylie Avenue    Pittsburgh 19, PA   "The wholesaler who never retails". Even if this is the box the seller sold them in, it gives no indication of who made them. (Sean, How about running over there and asking them)             Over the years our HOSC&H-SIG has had some very similar models with just about the same request. WHO ???  One showed a drawing of an FT that has the same detail shown but states "metal is whitish silver, probably zinc alloy. Has added "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell (never heard of Beeman).                    Another very close match are pictures of GARCO FT's. They have GARCO in raised letters inside the body and Challenger in raised (CMC / Challenger Model Company) letters on the other. This is cast Aluminum. My shells have no names cast inside             Third are pictures of a set (A&B)  of FT's labeled   Unidentified Cast Brass FT Diesel shells.    These match  mine except a lot rougher around the edges with a lot of "flash".             I am only talking about FT shells.  While two of the examples are the wrong material, but could have been cast in other materials also,many guesses have given familiar vintage names. Beeman and Challenger which I never heard of. Dallas Model Craft and their later name Diesel Model Company. The name GARCO and that ever present,at that time, A&S (Adams and Son) casting. Add Cambron to that.            ANY IDEAS                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7679	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: some vintage modification

Attachments : Hi All,          Especially for Don. Since it is his site and includes modifying vintage items I thought you might like these.  I mostly collect but  use to run vintage on a layout. I wanted to show you some project engines I like to term "fantasy". I have no idea if patterned after anything real. These three engines were bought off Ebay in very bad condition either as part of a larger collection or by themselves. While I can't take credit for the original idea behind them I will take credit for spending a lot of time for "rebuilding" these basket cases        First engine was originally a Roundhouse / Model Die Cast  straight cab  0-6-0 steam switcher with oil fired tender.  I have rebuilt it into an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. Painted but no decals.        Second engine has a modified Penn Line Boiler, 0-8-0 brass frame (unknown)  with old Mantua cast and brass tender. I completely did over and repainted.        Third was a Mantua 0-4-0 boiler and drivers with valve gear, the Motor is the round Rivarossi with a modified drive shaft,the cab was hand made from plastic, and the back for the coal was a premade item but by who I don't know. It was all in pieces. I made a 2-4-4 Forney. The coal load is removable to get into wiring from back truck. A unique item I think. A LOT of work went into this painted model.          I have a number of other "fantasy" engines but thought you might like these.                                                                                          Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7680	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

Hi Glenn,   I had some old Exacta kits last year, got em cheap and made a decent profit from them, as you say, the passenger cars would stick out in 17/64 scale as opposed to 1/48 scale, and I wasn't running passenger trains anyway, boxcars also varied in size.......:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:27:48 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? a 17/64" scale car will really stand out in a train of 1/4" cars, --particularly a passenger car  hoppers and tank cars will blend in as their size varies.  The Thomas 0-4-0 was 17/64" as were a lot of pre-war Lobaugh items.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Woodard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:33 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? Here in the United States, the correct proportion for O scale is 1/48 scale, or 1/4 inch equals 1 foot, most modelers of the early days here in the US would use tinplate mechanisms and scale superstructures, these guys later became known as "HiRailers", today being a HiRailer is very popular, you use scale equipment but rather use 3 rail appliances, and hence, its  more popular than ever.   As one who spent years modeling in O scale 2 rail, the 7 mm modelers of Europe, and the 1/43 scale modelers of the UK, have very well perfected the art of O scale in their respective ratios, however, here in the US, most O scalers have stuck with the tried and true 1/4 inch scale, even though we use the same gauge track, (thanks to the late Joshua Lionel Cowan), if you look at a normal 2 rail O scale model, and a Proto48 model side by side, say the San Juan Car Shops Fowler boxcar, you couldn't tell the difference, even by looking at the trucks if both models were built using San Juan trucks, you might be able to tell by looking at the coupler, as the stock O scale car would most likely have Kadee couplers however.   While true that some modelers tried working with 17/64 scale, it never really caught on, as by the time they started modeling in that off scale, most O scalers were stuck with 1/4 inch scale at that time, in the early 1960's, there were a few who started the finescale, commonly refered to then as AAR Finescale, that term doesn't get used much  anymore except by a few narrow gauge modelers, since On3 and On2 have always been detailed to finescale standards..   For those who are interested in learning more about Proto48, follow this link http://www.proto48. org/   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: "Dst8596587@ aol.com" <Dst8596587@aol. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:54:45 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? The correct proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is commonly believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet compared to 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance between the rails (4 feet / 8 and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by the model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in a fine scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough and began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in the late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for reduction of full scale measurements, , the quarter inch crowd won out. Both fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing. -----Original Message----- From: John Barlow <jdenver4150@ yahoo.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 8:51 am Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? > Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7681	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: need ID help

Hi Jim,   Drawing on my O scale roots, those look like smaller versions of of the old Adams and Sons FT's that were done back in the early 40's, they could be home cast units as well.........:o)   Gary W   ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:37:37 PM Subject: [vintageHO] need ID help Hi All,      I'm searching for help to ID some cast Brass pieces I got from Ebay a couple of years ago. They are HO models of A & B shells for a set of FT's. The box they came in might not be original but is the right size and has this written on it                             Diesel Locomotive    Freight or Combination Passenger Freight     THEO. R. Parker    801 Wylie Avenue    Pittsburgh 19, PA   "The wholesaler who never retails". Even if this is the box the seller sold them in, it gives no indication of who made them. (Sean, How about running over there and asking them)             Over the years our HOSC&H-SIG has had some very similar models with just about the same request. WHO ???  One showed a drawing of an FT that has the same detail shown but states "metal is whitish silver, probably zinc alloy. Has added "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell (never heard of Beeman).                    Another very close match are pictures of GARCO FT's. They have GARCO in raised letters inside the body and Challenger in raised (CMC / Challenger Model Company) letters on the other. This is cast Aluminum. My shells have no names cast inside             Third are pictures of a set (A&B)  of FT's labeled   Unidentified Cast Brass FT Diesel shells.    These match  mine except a lot rougher around the edges with a lot of "flash".             I am only talking about FT shells.  While two of the examples are the wrong material, but could have been cast in other materials also,many guesses have given familiar vintage names. Beeman and Challenger which I never heard of. Dallas Model Craft and their later name Diesel Model Company. The name GARCO and that ever present,at that time, A&S (Adams and Son) casting. Add Cambron to that.            ANY IDEAS                                                                                               Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7682	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: vintage H0 ?

OK anyhow, I concur. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "topstokes" <topstokes@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? > GLEN YOU ARE RIGHT, I WROTE IT. GUESS SOME HOW THE MACHINE REFUSES TO > RECOGNIZE ME. TAKE CARE. > TOPSTOKES > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> Hey--hold on a minnit! I didn't write that. (from here to "the > following . >> . . " gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "topstokes" <topstokes@...> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 8:45 AM >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? >> >> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: >> >>I apologize for any misconceptions I may have caused. I was > refering >> > to the original post and referenced my copy of Model Railways >> > published by Popular Science in 1936 for my data. So "Q" guage and >> > AAR 1/4" would not even be on the horizon. In truth there is no > scale >> > measurement relative to track width for "Zero guage" just > recognized >> > ones. Fine scale as a term can be found in NEM and NMRA > references as >> > well as some publications predating 1940. The nice thing about > being >> > 70 is you can always blame your memory when in doubt. Guess I'll > go >> > play with my "E" gauge train, which is 1/8 inch to the foot. I >> > think!! Thats really what model railroading is all about, sharing >> > information and having fun. >> > >> >> The following is what I wrote--gj >> >> >> 1:45 is NOT finescale. It is a more correct scale for 1.25" > gauge >> > track. >> >> So is 7mm or 1:43 >> >> >> >> The "finescale" movement has stayed with the convenient 1:48 / > 1/4" >> > scale >> >> and corrected the track gauge for the scale. Early on was "Q >> > Gauge" at 1 >> >> 3/16" gauge-- 4'9" gauge. Minton Cronkhite's layouts for > exhibits >> > were Q >> >> Gauge. Lots easier to just change the trucks than have to bypass >> > nice >> >> commercial models. >> >> >> >> Then in the fifties Cliff Grandt and others in the Alameda County >> > CA area,, >> >> among others, started the 1/4" AAR movement, scaling down the > full >> > size >> >> wheel contours to 1/4" scale. This gradually morphed into >> > the "Proto 48" >> >> movement. There was a newsletter, but I haven't seen one in >> > several years. >> >> gj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> >> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:37 PM >> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage H0 ? >> >> >> >> >> >> > Dst8596587 (Unsigned) >> >> > >> >> > Or 1:45 would equal 7 mm as the difference between 17/64 and 7 > mm >> > is >> >> > quite small. 0.26563 for 17/64 and 0.27559 fort 7 mm. Back >> > when "O" >> >> > scale got started here, I there few who knew from metric scale >> > other >> >> > than mathematicians, scientists and certain military > departments. >> > So >> >> > they converted to the closest fraction, 17/64ths, and, as you >> > stated, >> >> > most took the easy way and used 1/4" for the models whilst >> > continuing >> >> > to use the same track. The slightly larger 7 mm would make the > HO >> >> > ratio half oh. >> >> > >> >> > I am not very familiar with "O" finescale. There is a rather > large >> >> > proto:48 contingent around with several manufacturers supplying >> >> > various components. They use, per their name, 1:48 and a > corrected >> >> > track gauge of 1.177" as opposed to the commonly used 1.250". >> >> > >> >> > John Hagen >> >> > St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI >> >> > >> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@ wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> The correct?proportion for "O" is 1/45 and not 1/48 as is >> > commonly >> >> > believed. One foot of fine scale would be a scale 45 feet >> > compared to >> >> > 48 feet for "O". This is arrived at by reducing the distance >> > between >> >> > the rails (4 feet / 8?and 1/2 inches) to the rail width used by >> > the >> >> > model. In "O" this width is 1 and 1/4 inches. This resulted in > a >> > fine >> >> > scale measurement of 17/64 inches to the foot. Early toy train >> >> > manufacturers decided that 1/4" to the foot was close enough > and >> >> > began to manufacture using that mesaurement as the standard. It >> >> > resulted in some heated arguements ( from what I hve read) in > the >> >> > late thirties. However as 1/48 was not overly complex for >> > reduction >> >> > of full scale measurements,, the quarter inch crowd won out. > Both >> >> > fine scale and "O" use the same track spacing. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------------ >> >> > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7683	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 9/17/2008
Subject: Re: some vintage modification

Attachments : Stretching “kitbash” to the limit here.  Beautiful work-you ended up with some very desirable pieces that a lot of people would love to have.  Thanks, for sharing, Jim.    Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:48 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] some vintage modification   Hi All,          Especially for Don. Since it is his site and includes modifying vintage items I thought you might like these.  I mostly collect but  use to run vintage on a layout. I wanted to show you some project engines I like to term "fantasy". I have no idea if patterned after anything real. These three engines were bought off Ebay in very bad condition either as part of a larger collection or by themselves. While I can't take credit for the original idea behind them I will take credit for spending a lot of time for "rebuilding" these basket cases        First engine was originally a Roundhouse / Model Die Cast  straight cab  0-6-0 steam switcher with oil fired tender.  I have rebuilt it into an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. Painted but no decals.        Second engine has a modified Penn Line Boiler, 0-8-0 brass frame (unknown)  with old Mantua cast and brass tender. I completely did over and repainted.        Third was a Mantua 0-4-0 boiler and drivers with valve gear, the Motor is the round Rivarossi with a modified drive shaft,the cab was hand made from plastic, and the back for the coal was a premade item but by who I don't know. It was all in pieces. I made a 2-4-4 Forney. The coal load is removable to get into wiring from back truck. A unique item I think. A LOT of work went into this painted model.          I have a number of other "fantasy" engines but thought you might like these.                                                                                          Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7684	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/18/2008
Subject: not available

Hi,     Just a little note to let you know I will be "out of touch" from tomorrow at noon till Monday around five. (Don't all clap at once)  Have guest arriving for the week end and the two extra bedrooms will be in use. As one is also my computer room I don't think guest would appreciate me using it.                                                                                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7685	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!

Hi Glenn,    I just had a box come in with four gauges new in the package.  I also have a tone of the couplers as well..   If you want one. Semd me your address and I will pop a gauge in the mail to you.   Sean   --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 8:24 PM Thanks--I'll have to translate the measurements do decimals--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, for 35 cents.  The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64.  Which would make the top of the gauge 43/128.  Not the easiest of numbers to measure which maybe why the gauge. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Well, I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some time ago..   I will keep looking though..   Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7686	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!

Great!!  that would be a good project to learn the new lathe on--gj   Glenn Joesten 3825 Pruett Drive Yreka, CA 96097    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn! Hi Glenn,    I just had a box come in with four gauges new in the package.  I also have a tone of the couplers as well..   If you want one. Semd me your address and I will pop a gauge in the mail to you.   Sean   --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 8:24 PM Thanks--I'll have to translate the measurements do decimals--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, for 35 cents.  The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64.  Which would make the top of the gauge 43/128.  Not the easiest of numbers to measure which maybe why the gauge. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Well, I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some time ago..   I will keep looking though..   Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7687	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/21/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!

Packed up amd will be in the mornings mail:   Re: Dear Sean Naylor, You successfully created a shipping label using PayPal MultiOrder Shipping with U.S. Postal Service®. Your shipment details are below. You can track the package online at: http://trkcnfrm1.smi.usps.com/PTSInternetWeb/InterLabelInquiry.do?origTrackNum=9101150134711375833290 Please note: Tracking information is updated throughout the day, but most data is transmitted in the afternoon or evening. For example, if you mailed your Express Mail® package at 10:00 a.m., you might not be able to view tracking information until the next day. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Shipment Details ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tracking Number: 9101150134711375833290 Shipped From: Sean Naylor 2813 Thor Drive Lower Burrell, PA 15068 United States Shipped To: Glenn Joesten 3825 Pruett Drive Yreka, CA 96097 United States Shipping Status: Shipped Label Purchase Date: Sep. 21, 2008 00:51:30 PDT Carrier: U.S. Postal Service Service Type: First-Class Mail® Parcel (2-5 days) Note: Shipping time may sometimes exceed time shown for selected service type, depending on the distance between seller and buyer. Mailing Date: Sep. 21, 2008 00:00:00 PDT Total Shipping Cost: $1.52 USD --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 11:35 PM Great!!  that would be a good project to learn the new lathe on--gj   Glenn Joesten 3825 Pruett Drive Yreka, CA 96097    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn! Hi Glenn,    I just had a box come in with four gauges new in the package.  I also have a tone of the couplers as well..   If you want one. Semd me your address and I will pop a gauge in the mail to you.   Sean   --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 8:24 PM Thanks--I'll have to translate the measurements do decimals--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, for 35 cents.  The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64.  Which would make the top of the gauge 43/128.  Not the easiest of numbers to measure which maybe why the gauge. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Well, I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some time ago..   I will keep looking though..   Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7688	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/21/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!

thanks.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn! Packed up amd will be in the mornings mail:   Re: Dear Sean Naylor, You successfully created a shipping label using PayPal MultiOrder Shipping with U.S. Postal Service®. Your shipment details are below. You can track the package online at: http://trkcnfrm1.smi.usps.com/PTSInternetWeb/InterLabelInquiry.do?origTrackNum=9101150134711375833290 Please note: Tracking information is updated throughout the day, but most data is transmitted in the afternoon or evening. For example, if you mailed your Express Mail® package at 10:00 a.m., you might not be able to view tracking information until the next day. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Shipment Details ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tracking Number: 9101150134711375833290 Shipped From: Sean Naylor 2813 Thor Drive Lower Burrell, PA 15068 United States Shipped To: Glenn Joesten 3825 Pruett Drive Yreka, CA 96097 United States Shipping Status: Shipped Label Purchase Date: Sep. 21, 2008 00:51:30 PDT Carrier: U.S. Postal Service Service Type: First-Class Mail® Parcel (2-5 days) Note: Shipping time may sometimes exceed time shown for selected service type, depending on the distance between seller and buyer. Mailing Date: Sep. 21, 2008 00:00:00 PDT Total Shipping Cost: $1.52 USD --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn! To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 11:35 PM Great!!  that would be a good project to learn the new lathe on--gj   Glenn Joesten 3825 Pruett Drive Yreka, CA 96097    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn! Hi Glenn,    I just had a box come in with four gauges new in the package.  I also have a tone of the couplers as well..   If you want one. Semd me your address and I will pop a gauge in the mail to you.   Sean   --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 8:24 PM Thanks--I'll have to translate the measurements do decimals--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, for 35 cents.  The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64.  Which would make the top of the gauge 43/128.  Not the easiest of numbers to measure which maybe why the gauge. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Well, I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some time ago..   I will keep looking though..   Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7689	From: Jay Matz	Date: 9/22/2008
Subject: new auction site

I don't know how many of you are aware of this but there is a new auction web site. It's called UPbids.net and officially opened on Sept 19. It was started with the help of Keith Wiseman and is geared toward the model RR crowd. Easy to list items, sellers can determine payment options, and model railroad specific categories to help with searching for items. It is new so it needs some help in spreading the word. Check it out and don't forget it is a .net not a .com site. I have no affiliation with the site but would like an alternative to Ebay. Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7690	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/22/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site

It would be nice to see a new auction site compete with ebay, I understand they are raising their rates again. CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay Matz" <dlw455@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] new auction site > Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:45:48 -0000 > > > I don't know how many of you are aware of > this but there is a new auction web site. It's called UPbids.net and > officially opened on Sept 19. It was started with the help of Keith > Wiseman and is geared toward the model RR crowd. Easy to list items, > sellers can determine payment options, and model railroad specific > categories to help with searching for items. It is new so it needs some > help in spreading the word. Check it out and don't forget it is a .net > not a .com site. I have no affiliation with the site but would like an > alternative to Ebay. > Jay > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7691	From: Larry	Date: 9/23/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site

Been a while since I have posted here. I would like to say Thank You to James Heckard for all the HO train Information he donated to the HOseeker website. I should be updating this information over the next few weeks. Unfortunately the updating of his information has been delayed a couple of times. First by my wife passing away from cancer, then Hurricane Ike visiting Houston. Also his donation is very large. A new Auction Coming to HOseeker Hopefully within the next couple of weeks I will be able to try out this auction. http://hoseeker.org/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi This also was put on hold during the events here over the last few months. Take Care Larry --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Matz" <dlw455@...> wrote: > > I don't know how many of you are aware of > this but there is a new auction web site. It's called UPbids.net and > officially opened on Sept 19. It was started with the help of Keith > Wiseman and is geared toward the model RR crowd. Easy to list items, > sellers can determine payment options, and model railroad specific > categories to help with searching for items. It is new so it needs some > help in spreading the word. Check it out and don't forget it is a .net > not a .com site. I have no affiliation with the site but would like an > alternative to Ebay. > Jay >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7692	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 9/23/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site

The URL is http://upbids.net/ . I've been an eBayer since the late 90s, have seen dozens of these wannabe specialty (e.g., coins,hobbies, antiques, and just general materials) auction houses come and go, all trying to compete with eBay. None have succeeded because they are simply not adequately funded to either publicize (via media advertising and news releases) nor support themselves with adequate and reliable online capabilities (secure web servers, storage, solid multiple and redundant net connections, and 200% back-up). Folks, we're talking millions of bucks here to even start to compete with eBay. I would have no problem with eBay going down. It's actually shooting itself in the foot with its retarded policies against fraud (my specialty is rare coins); too little too late, so it's its own worst enemy and will be the cause of its own demise. I sold my eBay stock a couple years ago and was happy to take "only" a 20% loss. If I still had it, I'd be down 40% or more. Keeping stockholder dividends for unwise capital investments and ignoring fraud, not to mention ever-increasing user fees burned me and several million others out on what should have been the best investment of the 21st century. However, until somebody gets serious about competing with eBay (I say again, investing MILLIONS) be it in model railroading or direct multivariate competition, we're stuck with eBay. Fred Presently in Prescott, AZ Arizona Division of the NYO&W At 9:42 AM +0000 23/9/08, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote: >There are 2 messages in this issue. > >Topics in this digest: > >1a. new auction site > From: Jay Matz >1b. Re: new auction site > From: Charles Windes > > >Messages >________________________________________________________________________ >1a. new auction site > Posted by: "Jay Matz" dlw455@... dlw455 > Date: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:45 am ((PDT)) > > I don't know how many of you are aware of >this but there is a new auction web site. It's called UPbids.net and >officially opened on Sept 19. It was started with the help of Keith >Wiseman and is geared toward the model RR crowd. Easy to list items, >sellers can determine payment options, and model railroad specific >categories to help with searching for items. It is new so it needs some >help in spreading the word. Check it out and don't forget it is a .net >not a .com site. I have no affiliation with the site but would like an >alternative to Ebay. >Jay > > > >Messages in this topic (2) >________________________________________________________________________ >1b. Re: new auction site > Posted by: "Charles Windes" cwindes@... cwindes > Date: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:57 am ((PDT)) > >It would be nice to see a new auction site compete with ebay, I understand they are raising their rates again. >CAW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7693	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site

Let me see if my bank will just give me the loan...   Can I get any co-signers?   Sean --- On Tue, 9/23/08, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote: From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] new auction site To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 9:36 PM The URL is http://upbids. net/ . I've been an eBayer since the late 90s, have seen dozens of these wannabe specialty (e.g., coins,hobbies, antiques, and just general materials) auction houses come and go, all trying to compete with eBay. None have succeeded because they are simply not adequately funded to either publicize (via media advertising and news releases) nor support themselves with adequate and reliable online capabilities (secure web servers, storage, solid multiple and redundant net connections, and 200% back-up). Folks, we're talking millions of bucks here to even start to compete with eBay. I would have no problem with eBay going down. It's actually shooting itself in the foot with its retarded policies against fraud (my specialty is rare coins); too little too late, so it's its own worst enemy and will be the cause of its own demise. I sold my eBay stock a couple years ago and was happy to take "only" a 20% loss. If I still had it, I'd be down 40% or more. Keeping stockholder dividends for unwise capital investments and ignoring fraud, not to mention ever-increasing user fees burned me and several million others out on what should have been the best investment of the 21st century. However, until somebody gets serious about competing with eBay (I say again, investing MILLIONS) be it in model railroading or direct multivariate competition, we're stuck with eBay. Fred Presently in Prescott, AZ Arizona Division of the NYO&W At 9:42 AM +0000 23/9/08, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com wrote: >There are 2 messages in this issue. > >Topics in this digest: > >1a. new auction site > From: Jay Matz >1b. Re: new auction site > From: Charles Windes > > >Messages >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ >1a. new auction site > Posted by: "Jay Matz" dlw455@yahoo. com dlw455 > Date: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:45 am ((PDT)) > > I don't know how many of you are aware of >this but there is a new auction web site. It's called UPbids.net and >officially opened on Sept 19. It was started with the help of Keith >Wiseman and is geared toward the model RR crowd. Easy to list items, >sellers can determine payment options, and model railroad specific >categories to help with searching for items. It is new so it needs some >help in spreading the word. Check it out and don't forget it is a .net >not a .com site. I have no affiliation with the site but would like an >alternative to Ebay. >Jay > > > >Messages in this topic (2) >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ >1b. Re: new auction site > Posted by: "Charles Windes" cwindes@mindless. com cwindes > Date: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:57 am ((PDT)) > >It would be nice to see a new auction site compete with ebay, I understand they are raising their rates again. >CAW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7694	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/24/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site

Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote: > The URL is http://upbids.net/ . > > I've been an eBayer since the late 90s, have seen dozens of these wannabe specialty (e.g., coins,hobbies, antiques, and just general materials) auction houses come and go, all trying to compete with eBay. None have succeeded because they are simply not adequately funded to either publicize (via media advertising and news releases) nor support themselves with adequate and reliable online capabilities (secure web servers, storage, solid multiple and redundant net connections, and 200% back-up). Folks, we're talking millions of bucks here to even start to compete with eBay. > > I would have no problem with eBay going down. It's actually shooting itself in the foot with its retarded policies against fraud (my specialty is rare coins); too little too late, so it's its own worst enemy and will be the cause of its own demise. I sold my eBay stock a couple years ago and was happy to take "only" a 20% loss. If I still had it, I'd be down 40% or more. Keeping stockholder dividends for unwise capital investments and ignoring fraud, not to mention ever-increasing user fees burned me and several million others out on what should have been the best investment of the 21st century. > > However, until somebody gets serious about competing with eBay (I say again, investing MILLIONS) be it in model railroading or direct multivariate competition, we're stuck with eBay. > > Fred, and all, I see no reasonable way for anybody , other than a real big company with appropriate background, to compete with eBay. Why should a seller put his items at auction at upbids, or any where else , beeing fully aware that only a rather small number of prospective bidders will watch and eventually bid? With all shortcomings of eBay, they have an audience that is hard to beat. I would consider to watch any other auction site as, under the circumstances as mentioned above, there is a good chance to pick up some item at a fraction of the market value. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7695	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 9/24/2008
Subject: IMP Electric

Attachments : Hi Gerold,          Hope all is well. I had a beautiful weekend and mini vacation. I'm sending these pictures of an electric for you.          This is an IMP ( International ) Pennsylvania P-5 modified. I'm not a real expert on IMP but do have a number of their engines.  This was made as early as 1953. It came factory painted. Just like the look of the engine.                                                                                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7696	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/24/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site

Very understandable and hopefully things will even out for you or just get better. CAW -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7697	From: Henry Hultgren	Date: 9/24/2008
Subject: Re: new auction site

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote: > >My heartfelt condolences Larry .Henry H. Very understandable and hopefully things will even out for you or just get better. > CAW > > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7698	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: IMP Electric

Attachments : Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Gerold,          Hope all is well. I had a beautiful weekend and mini vacation. I'm sending these pictures of an electric for you.          This is an IMP ( International ) Pennsylvania P-5 modified. I'm not a real expert on IMP but do have a number of their engines.  This was made as early as 1953. It came factory painted. Just like the look of the engine.                                                                                                                 Jim Jim, have some health issue - high blood pressure - just now... I was aware of this for one year but neglected it, last week I really felt bad so I had to do something - according to my doc, medication will take two weeks until reaching the full effect . However I will have to go to another doctor who specuializes on this things.... brrr... not my piece of cake. Seems I get old. Re modeling, some albeit slow progress... tinkering with some brass locos, and have received an old GEM IC suburban loco I have lokked for for years... Re the International P5, I have a leftover drive without motor and shell .... might use a  Varney GG1 shell, which I bought already shortened, on it , or maybe build a freelace boxcab body for it. I think there was a boxcab version available too? - Last year I found a P5b at ebay, $85 Buy it Now !! this is the unique PRR experiment, to install MU type traction motors in the pilot trucks to make the type more suitable for freight service... this was never repeated so apparently the conversion did not work as expected. I have attached a picture... just check the busy look with all the additional wire mesh to keep her cool despite the additional horsepower! Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7699	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: IMP Electric

Sorry, my last message was intended to go to Jim only. I am not sure if the P5b is on topic here, and I did not intend to discuss my health issues in public. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7700	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: IMP Electric

Gerold, Given the overall level of knowledge and experience on this list, I suspect many of us are more than understanding of what you wrote -- in other words, alot of us are well along in years. But, you brought up an interesting topic with the IC Suburban loco. I too have always been intrigued with the IC Suburban loco. I have seen a couple but never bought one. Can I ask if it has a brass worm or a steel worm? A couple of the GEM locos I have had brass worms, but some had beautiful steel worms that run beautifully. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > Sorry, my last message was intended to go to Jim only. I am not sure if > the P5b is on topic here, and I did not intend to discuss my health > issues in public. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7701	From: erieberk	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring

Bill, If you still need extra leaf springs for your Varney pre-War Consol, let me know -- I came across my box of 1/2 point thick (7/16" wide) copper thin spaces which will fit fine after trimming them to 1/4" wide and bending them in half. Mostly, I find 2 springs on top of each bearing block, one turned in the opposite direction to the other to make a complete "Z" when fitted into the frame. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote: > > With all this talk about Varney mechanisms I was wondering if anyone > has an extra leaf spring for the pre-war Varney Consolidation. I > picked the loco up at a meet several years ago but one of the leaf > springs is missing. If someone has an extra that they would be willing > to part with, please contact me off line at my e-mail address with your > price. > > Thanks > > Bill DeFoe >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7702	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: IMP Electric

Gerold WE are (hopefully) all human and we have problems it does not hurt to throw something out there accidentally or not I can not see thatit would be a problem to any one, still all the best. CAW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] IMP Electric > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:33:36 +0200 > > > Sorry, my last message was intended to go to Jim only. I am not sure if > the P5b is on topic here, and I did not intend to discuss my health > issues in public. > > Gerold > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7703	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: IC suburban

> But, you brought up an interesting topic with the IC Suburban loco. I > too have always been intrigued with the IC Suburban loco. I have seen a > couple but never bought one. Can I ask if it has a brass worm or a > steel worm? A couple of the GEM locos I have had brass worms, but some > had beautiful steel worms that run beautifully. > > Matt > Matt, She has a brass worm, but runs reasonably well . Apparently she picks up current from the right rail with the rear truck only; both the pilot truck and the tender truck have rather strong springs which surely will detract from tractive effort. I think I will add pickup wipers on the drivers and will put weaker springs over the trucks. I watched several of them at eBay com, they always went beyond what I wanted to spend.... two weeks ago there was one on auction in Switzerland, also to expensive ... then by pure coincidence I found one at a Hobbyshop in Zürich/ Switzerland , 342 Swiss Francs incl shipping, USD 319.... 214 EURO. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7704	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn!

Sean--gauge arrived today--thanks--even has the original envelope!  When I get time I'll have to get the new lathe set up and try to copy it--I got one of the lathes like Micro Mark sells, but here on west coast at Harbor Freight so save the freight.  Unimat and Sherline were always a bit light for some of my projects.  glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua coupler height Gauge Ping to Glenn! Hi Glenn,    I just had a box come in with four gauges new in the package.  I also have a tone of the couplers as well..   If you want one. Semd me your address and I will pop a gauge in the mail to you.   Sean   --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 8:24 PM Thanks--I'll have to translate the measurements do decimals--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua I found two of them, one in the original package, part number 5640, for 35 cents.  The OD is 3/8 and the diameter of the grove is 19/64.  Which would make the top of the gauge 43/128.  Not the easiest of numbers to measure which maybe why the gauge. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 11:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Well, I am trying to find one... They were not in my first looking place... I have a sneaking suspicion I may have let them go in a lot of old couplers some time ago..   I will keep looking though..   Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 11:35 PM I think I was responding to the comment on doors--I do need the Mantua gage.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   I don't need any--that's how I replaced some.   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Naylor To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua   Hi Glenn,   I think I may have one or two that I will never use.. for the loop type, Right? Sean --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:26 PM Does anyone have a spare Mantua coupler gauge?  It would be cylindrical metal with two grooves for the rails--then the outside diameter would be the proper coupler height.   If not a spare one, good measurements would do.  Outside diameter and diameter at bottom of grooves.  Should be a simple lathe project.    Thanks   GJ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7705	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 9/25/2008
Subject: Re: Pre-War Varney leaf spring

Ray, I had a response to your post typed out and Vista threw it out in never- never land. If it finally shows up I apologize for answering twice. I really appreciate your offer, but I found a source of the letterpress thin spaces locally. I just have to go and pick them up. I have been promised a large supply of them, probably more than I will ever use. Thanks again, Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Bill, If you still need extra leaf springs for your Varney pre-War > Consol, let me know -- I came across my box of 1/2 point thick (7/16" > wide) copper thin spaces which will fit fine after trimming them to > 1/4" wide and bending them in half. Mostly, I find 2 springs on top > of each bearing block, one turned in the opposite direction to the > other to make a complete "Z" when fitted into the frame. Ray W. > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7706	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/26/2008
Subject: Re: IC suburban

Gerold, Thanks for the info and the details on the worm material. I have been interested for a number of years in the evolution of brass locomotives, especially regarding the drives -- motors, gears, axle bearings, etc. The early complaints I remember reading about in when I was a child (and couldn't afford brass models) was that they were beautifully detailed but didn't run as well as US die-cast locos. Now that I am old, and have several of each in my collection I am finding that the complaints against brass were only partly true. Depending on the builder (not the importer) some of even the cheapest brass imports had well made gear trains and some others were terrible (brass worms, brass worm gears, and some had brass axles!) Thanks for sharing the info. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > > But, you brought up an interesting topic with the IC Suburban loco. I > > too have always been intrigued with the IC Suburban loco. I have seen a > > couple but never bought one. Can I ask if it has a brass worm or a > > steel worm? A couple of the GEM locos I have had brass worms, but some > > had beautiful steel worms that run beautifully. > > > > Matt > > > Matt, > > She has a brass worm, but runs reasonably well . Apparently she picks up > current from the right rail with the rear truck only; both the pilot > truck and the tender truck have rather strong springs which surely will > detract from tractive effort. I think I will add pickup wipers on the > drivers and will put weaker springs over the trucks. > > I watched several of them at eBay com, they always went beyond what I > wanted to spend.... two weeks ago there was one on auction in > Switzerland, also to expensive ... then by pure coincidence I found > one at a Hobbyshop in Zürich/ Switzerland , 342 Swiss Francs incl > shipping, USD 319.... 214 EURO. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7707	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/26/2008
Subject: Re: IC suburban

I have the O Scale version--fairly nice model for its day--got it in a trade--wanted to use it on a portable layout but found it was quite demanding of radius. Sa far as I can see without taking it apart (and cleaning out all the remains of red foam) it has a steel worm. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:58 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: IC suburban Gerold, Thanks for the info and the details on the worm material. I have been interested for a number of years in the evolution of brass locomotives, especially regarding the drives -- motors, gears, axle bearings, etc. The early complaints I remember reading about in when I was a child (and couldn't afford brass models) was that they were beautifully detailed but didn't run as well as US die-cast locos. Now that I am old, and have several of each in my collection I am finding that the complaints against brass were only partly true. Depending on the builder (not the importer) some of even the cheapest brass imports had well made gear trains and some others were terrible (brass worms, brass worm gears, and some had brass axles!) Thanks for sharing the info. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > > > But, you brought up an interesting topic with the IC Suburban loco. I > > too have always been intrigued with the IC Suburban loco. I have seen a > > couple but never bought one. Can I ask if it has a brass worm or a > > steel worm? A couple of the GEM locos I have had brass worms, but some > > had beautiful steel worms that run beautifully. > > > > Matt > > > Matt, > > She has a brass worm, but runs reasonably well . Apparently she picks up > current from the right rail with the rear truck only; both the pilot > truck and the tender truck have rather strong springs which surely will > detract from tractive effort. I think I will add pickup wipers on the > drivers and will put weaker springs over the trucks. > > I watched several of them at eBay com, they always went beyond what I > wanted to spend.... two weeks ago there was one on auction in > Switzerland, also to expensive ... then by pure coincidence I found > one at a Hobbyshop in Zürich/ Switzerland , 342 Swiss Francs incl > shipping, USD 319.... 214 EURO. > > Gerold > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7708	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: IC suburban

The O Scale version is a rare bird. Thanks for the note on the worm material. Gem made some excellent models in its era. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > I have the O Scale version--fairly nice model for its day--got it in a > trade--wanted to use it on a portable layout but found it was quite > demanding of radius. Sa far as I can see without taking it apart (and > cleaning out all the remains of red foam) it has a steel worm. gj >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7709	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: VarneyC&NW Oservation

Mine has the same problem. It doesn't show in the photos, but I have touched up the green in several places with a medium green acrylic (don't recall which exactly, but it was one of the Ceramcote products). Then I gave the whole thing a shot of matte finish to blend the touched up areas into the original finish. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:15 AM Subject: [vintageHO] VarneyC&NW Oservation Hi Don, Nice car. I have to envy you for having this. I have 4 of these celluloid "Varney "Shorty" Observation cars in C&NW colors but everyone has the same problem. The paint is peeling off of the rounded back end. I even bought a mint kit and the same thing. Having the other two cars from the set (Coach and Combine) I would like to add this Observation. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7710	From: Andy B	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: New Member

Thanks for letting me join this group. Woodworking has been my hobby for years and as I am looking to fully retire in the near future I have been looking for a hobby to use the tools I have. Having had Lionel trains many years ago I still remember the fun the were to use. Started collecting trains a few months ago and have about two dozen cars, two engines and tenders and about 200 pieces of track. This is probably more than you wanted to know, so let me get to my first question as I am sure there will be more. I posted pictures of a car in an album called Andy, does any one know what Lionel's part number is. Thanks Andy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7711	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy B" <PCGURU1@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 5:28 AM Subject: [vintageHO] New Member > Thanks for letting me join this group. > Woodworking has been my hobby for years > and as I am looking to fully retire in the near future > I have been looking for a hobby to use the tools I have. > Having had Lionel trains many years ago I still remember the > fun the were to use. Started collecting trains a few months ago and have > about two dozen cars, two engines and tenders and about 200 pieces of > track. > This is probably more than you wanted to know, so let me get to my > first question > as I am sure there will be more. I posted pictures of a car in an > album called Andy, does any one know what Lionel's part number is. > > Thanks > Andy Welcome aboard. I would like to mention though that we are HO collectors here, and Lionel is really off topic. If anyone CAN help Andy in identifying his car, please write him off list. Thanks Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7712	From: Steven Winter	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

Don,   Don't you mean Lionel O-27? .... I have many pieces of Lionel HO that I consider vintage;-)   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Member Welcome aboard.  I would like to mention though that we are HO collectors here,  and Lionel is really off topic. If anyone CAN help Andy in identifying his car, please write him off list. Thanks Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7713	From: Charles Windes	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

OK guys before this gets started, in seperate corners please and Breath, Breath, Breath, think happy thoughts and get a grip before we get on a jag about Lionel..Calm will prevail. LOL! Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Member Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Don,   Don't you mean Lionel O-27? .... I have many pieces of Lionel HO that I consider vintage;-)   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Member Welcome aboard.  I would like to mention though that we are HO collectors here,  and Lionel is really off topic. If anyone CAN help Andy in identifying his car, please write him off list. Thanks Don -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7714	From: Fred Stevens K2FRD	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member - Lionel

While I agree this is a vintage HO Group, a search of Yahoo Groups home page shows many Lionel Groups http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=Lionel , many of which might meet Andy's requirements. As a moderator of 13 Yahoo Groups (involves ham radio, Scouting involving ham radio, and emergency communications), I try to try to steer queries and new members in the right direction. With close to 7K members in all my groups going back to 1999, I'm happy to help them out. Trust me, it's a lot easier to guide them to their proper place in the Yahoo Group system than have a bazillion off-topic messages and resultant complaints by Group members. Fred Stevens Presently in Prescott, AZ waiting for it to cool down at my desert home location. Formerly "The boy who was raised by the NYO&W Railway line" (thanks to Paul Craft, Tennessee Earnie Ford, and The Seldom Scene) At 12:36 PM -0700 27/9/08, Steven Winter wrote: >Don, > >Don't you mean Lionel O-27? .... I have many pieces of Lionel HO that I consider vintage;-) > >Steve > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:don.dellmann@...>Don Dellmann >To: <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:39 PM >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Member > > >Welcome aboard. I would like to mention though that we are HO collectors >here, and Lionel is really off topic. > >If anyone CAN help Andy in identifying his car, please write him off list. > >Thanks > >Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7715	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

Lionel HO is perfectly acceptable. The pics Andy posted however were O-27. I love Lionel as well as the next guy (I miss my Santa Fe F-3's), but there are other groups that specialize in tinplate. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" <steven_winter@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Member > Don, > > Don't you mean Lionel O-27? .... I have many pieces of Lionel HO that I > consider vintage;-) > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Dellmann > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:39 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Member > > > > Welcome aboard. I would like to mention though that we are HO > collectors > here, and Lionel is really off topic. > > If anyone CAN help Andy in identifying his car, please write him off > list. > > Thanks > > Don > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7716	From: Lennard Stewart	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Old Horse Drawn Wagons

Attachments : Lennard Stewart wrote: Hi Everyone Sorry For the Cross posting I got the New Model Railroad news in today and in Looking thru it found these Wagons made in HO, S, and O scale some even in G and F. Here is the link to there site. http://www.g-m-e.com/laserkit.html Here is the link to there main site. http://www.g-m-e.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7717	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/27/2008
Subject: Re: Old Horse Drawn Wagons

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennard Stewart" <lennard@...> To: <1-87scalevehiclesales@yahoogroups.com>; <EarlyRail@yahoogroups.com>; <J6-layout@yahoogroups.com>; <RPM-forum@yahoogroups.com>; <Sn3@yahoogroups.com>; <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:31 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Old Horse Drawn Wagons > Lennard Stewart wrote: > Hi Everyone Sorry For the Cross posting I got the New Model > Railroad news in today and in Looking thru it found these Wagons made in > HO, S, and O scale some even in G and F. Here is the link to there site. > http://www.g-m-e.com/laserkit.html > > Here is the link to there main site. > http://www.g-m-e.com/ Nice pieces, but again, not really vintage. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7718	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 9/28/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

Let's not forget, in speaking of vintage trains, that in the late 30's and early 40's Lionel also ventured into "OO" gauge, along with Scalecraft and JC (names not unknown to vintage HO hobbyists). THE FOLLOWERS OF OO HAVE A YAHOO GROUP, "AMERICAN OO". I only bring this up because (and here's the ad) I and a TCA member and Lionel freak are helping to liquidate a small Lionel etc. OO collection on eBay, should any of you be interested. I'll be quiet now. Sorry for the interuption. Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Steven Winter <steven_winter@...> wrote: > > Don, > > Don't you mean Lionel O-27? .... I have many pieces of Lionel HO that I consider vintage;-) > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Dellmann > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:39 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Member > > > > Welcome aboard. I would like to mention though that we are HO collectors > here, and Lionel is really off topic. > > If anyone CAN help Andy in identifying his car, please write him off list. > > Thanks > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7719	From: ho6471trains	Date: 9/28/2008
Subject: American Precision Models

I am new to the group so this might seem like a dumb question. Is APM still in business? If so does anyone have the address? Tom P.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7720	From: g94a95	Date: 9/28/2008
Subject: Penn Line

Hi Folks...Im new to the group so I will make a short introduction. I am selling off my entire collection of American flyer S guage and starting to collect Penn Line trains. Did that for space reasons because I can get alot more into a 4x16 layout. Im fairly new to Penn Line trains so Im not sure all of what I need to be looking for. I have picked up a few nice items off of ebay but the listings seem to always be real small. Plus the Mrs doesnt seem to mind the difference in prices!!....Thanx..Bill

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7721	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/28/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

What is the address for the OO group--I also collect that--interesting--just a bit more bulk than HO. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> > FOLLOWERS OF OO HAVE A YAHOO GROUP, "AMERICAN OO". I only bring this > up because (and here's the ad) I and a TCA member and Lionel freak are > helping to liquidate a small Lionel etc. OO collection on eBay, should > any of you be interested. > I'll be quiet now. Sorry for the interuption. > Walter > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7722	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 9/29/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

The 00 Yahoo group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanOO/?yguid=243610 Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member What is the address for the OO group--I also collect that--interesting- -just a bit more bulk than HO. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@comcast. net> > FOLLOWERS OF OO HAVE A YAHOO GROUP, "AMERICAN OO". I only bring this > up because (and here's the ad) I and a TCA member and Lionel freak are > helping to liquidate a small Lionel etc. OO collection on eBay, should > any of you be interested. > I'll be quiet now. Sorry for the interuption. > Walter > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7723	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/29/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

Thanks--I have signed in.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Aultman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member The 00 Yahoo group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanOO/?yguid=243610 Roger Aultman       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member What is the address for the OO group--I also collect that--interesting- -just a bit more bulk than HO. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@comcast. net> > FOLLOWERS OF OO HAVE A YAHOO GROUP, "AMERICAN OO". I only bring this > up because (and here's the ad) I and a TCA member and Lionel freak are > helping to liquidate a small Lionel etc. OO collection on eBay, should > any of you be interested. > I'll be quiet now. Sorry for the interuption. > Walter > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7724	From: Larry	Date: 9/29/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

Here is an OO blog link if you would like to try it. HO and OO are related. OO modelers use HO scale train parts on their model projects http://americanoo.blogspot.com/ Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/ --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Thanks--I have signed in. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Roger Aultman > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 11:43 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member > > > The 00 Yahoo group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanOO/?yguid=243610 > Roger Aultman > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn476 > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 1:53 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member > > > What is the address for the OO group--I also collect that-- interesting--just > a bit more bulk than HO. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> > > FOLLOWERS OF OO HAVE A YAHOO GROUP, "AMERICAN OO". I only bring this > > up because (and here's the ad) I and a TCA member and Lionel freak are > > helping to liquidate a small Lionel etc. OO collection on eBay, should > > any of you be interested. > > I'll be quiet now. Sorry for the interuption. > > Walter > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7725	From: Glenn476	Date: 9/29/2008
Subject: Re: New Member

Thanks for the suggestion. Actually, some HO parts are a bit oversized making them just right for OO. On a major project--I have a four-unit set of Schorr F3's that need drives--I am considering seeing if there is an Athearn HO drive I might use--something with the right wheelbase (axle spacing) in the trucks--I can probably get the right sized wheels from NWSL. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry" <seekingho@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Member > Here is an OO blog link if you would like to try it. HO and OO are > related. OO modelers use HO scale train parts on their model > projects > > http://americanoo.blogspot.com/ > > Larry > http://www.hoseeker.org/ > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: >> >> Thanks--I have signed in. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Roger Aultman >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 11:43 AM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member >> >> >> The 00 Yahoo group is at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanOO/?yguid=243610 >> Roger Aultman >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Glenn476 >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 1:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member >> >> >> What is the address for the OO group--I also collect that-- > interesting--just >> a bit more bulk than HO. gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> >> > FOLLOWERS OF OO HAVE A YAHOO GROUP, "AMERICAN OO". I only > bring this >> > up because (and here's the ad) I and a TCA member and Lionel > freak are >> > helping to liquidate a small Lionel etc. OO collection on > eBay, should >> > any of you be interested. >> > I'll be quiet now. Sorry for the interuption. >> > Walter >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7726	From: stipaa	Date: 9/30/2008
Subject: AHM kit # 5820 (GRUSUM CASKET CO)

I AM SEARCHING FOR A SHEET OF INSTRUCTIONS FOR AHM kit # 5820 (GRUSUM CASKET CO) believe this kit is out of production!! I CAN'T PUT IT TOGETHER WITHOUT THEM!! PLEASE HELP!! THANKS!!!!! IN PDF FORMAT ON MY EMAIL IS PERFECT IF POSSIBLE.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7727	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/1/2008
Subject: New collection addition

Attachments : Hi All,          Would like to pass on pictures and information of a new HO item for my collection. I had never heard or seen anything about this engine before. I was unable to bid myself but thanks to member Sean N I was able to get it.        It is an item made by Western Models   930 S.W. Harrison Street  Portland Oregon. It is an Alco 1000 HP Switcher which I believe is an S-2. It is made from etched copper and the pieces get soldered together. I intend to disassemble it, clean extra solder off and put it back to as near as kit form as possible.        The powered drive truck is a Varney with DC 60 motor, flywheel and coil spring / pulley drive. It has old Mantua loop coupler all of which will help todate it since I don't know YET. Thankfully another train friend from CA sent me the add that is in a picture. The engine needs some work but I have the time. To me a great addition for my collection and HO history.        I would appreciate knowing more about the company and it's products. The ad says O body scale too. I'm wondering if any connection to Super Scale ????                                                                     Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7728	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/1/2008
Subject: Re: New collection addition (small correction)

Small mistake. Photo Engraved Brass not etched Copper. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:31 PM Subject: New collection addition Hi All,          Would like to pass on pictures and information of a new HO item for my collection. I had never heard or seen anything about this engine before. I was unable to bid myself but thanks to member Sean N I was able to get it.        It is an item made by Western Models   930 S.W. Harrison Street  Portland Oregon. It is an Alco 1000 HP Switcher which I believe is an S-2. It is made from etched copper and the pieces get soldered together. I intend to disassemble it, clean extra solder off and put it back to as near as kit form as possible.        The powered drive truck is a Varney with DC 60 motor, flywheel and coil spring / pulley drive. It has old Mantua loop coupler all of which will help todate it since I don't know YET. Thankfully another train friend from CA sent me the add that is in a picture. The engine needs some work but I have the time. To me a great addition for my collection and HO history.        I would appreciate knowing more about the company and it's products. The ad says O body scale too. I'm wondering if any connection to Super Scale ????                                                                     Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7729	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 10/1/2008
Subject: Re: New collection addition (small correction)

Yeah, etched brass is more common.   We have etched a "fewa" car bodies and parts over the years(still do, too!), mostly N-scale Passenger cars and a few in other scales. Cameras are so handy!   Happy collecting and modeling, my friends   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New collection addition (small correction) To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 1:13 PM Small mistake. Photo Engraved Brass not etched Copper. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:31 PM Subject: New collection addition Hi All,          Would like to pass on pictures and information of a new HO item for my collection. I had never heard or seen anything about this engine before. I was unable to bid myself but thanks to member Sean N I was able to get it.        It is an item made by Western Models   930 S.W. Harrison Street  Portland Oregon. It is an Alco 1000 HP Switcher which I believe is an S-2. It is made from etched copper and the pieces get soldered together. I intend to disassemble it, clean extra solder off and put it back to as near as kit form as possible.        The powered drive truck is a Varney with DC 60 motor, flywheel and coil spring / pulley drive. It has old Mantua loop coupler all of which will help todate it since I don't know YET. Thankfully another train friend from CA sent me the add that is in a picture. The engine needs some work but I have the time. To me a great addition for my collection and HO history.        I would appreciate knowing more about the company and it's products. The ad says O body scale too. I'm wondering if any connection to Super Scale ????                                                                     Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7730	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/5/2008
Subject: need part

Hi All,   I need the "fiberboard" insulated piece on top of a pitman DC-60 motor that holds the brushes. I will buy a non working motor if the insulating piece is not broke.                                                                                     Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7731	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 10/5/2008
Subject: fiber board

Hi Jim, I ordered some directly from Bowser a few years ago. Have you tried them? I used all the ones I got then for restoration too. Best, Tom Van Hoy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7732	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/6/2008
Subject: Re: fiber board

Hi Tom,              Never even thought about Bowser. I guess he took over Pitman motors and would have the part. THANKS                                                                                                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: tomvanhoy To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 8:52 PM Subject: [vintageHO] fiber board Hi Jim, I ordered some directly from Bowser a few years ago. Have you tried them? I used all the ones I got then for restoration too. Best, Tom Van Hoy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7733	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 10/6/2008
Subject: Re: fiber board

Jim, I forgot to say thanks for your postings on vintage & obscure, at least to me, trains. Best, Tom Van Hoy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7734	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Link for Mantua parts

Could some one post the link to the site that sells Mantua parts?  Thanks, my buddy needs some items for his General.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7735	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Re: Link for Mantua parts

Hi Chuck,               Not sure what site you are looking for. I buy most of  Mantua parts from Dan Bush   dan@...                                                                                                                   Jim        ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:58 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Link for Mantua parts Could some one post the link to the site that sells Mantua parts?  Thanks, my buddy needs some items for his General. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7736	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Re: Link for Mantua parts

Hi ,         Should have included      Yardbird Classic Trains     56125 Quarry Lane    New London  MO   63459     Web site is   www.yardbird.com       Phone   573-248-3841                                                                       Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:58 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Link for Mantua parts Could some one post the link to the site that sells Mantua parts?  Thanks, my buddy needs some items for his General. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7737	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Re: Link for Mantua parts

Hi Jim and all, I don't think that was the correct link to Yardbird Trains. It should be Yardbirdtrains.com   Brian L.   In a message dated 10/11/2008 11:45:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes: Hi ,         Should have included      Yardbird Classic Trains     56125 Quarry Lane    New London  MO   63459     Web site is   www.yardbird. com       Phone   573-248-3841                                                                       Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:58 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Link for Mantua parts Could some one post the link to the site that sells Mantua parts?  Thanks, my buddy needs some items for his General. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7738	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 10/11/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Link for Mantua parts

Brian, Thanks for the link. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of bslook@... Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:59 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Link for Mantua parts   Hi Jim and all, I don't think that was the correct link to Yardbird Trains. It should be Yardbirdtrains. com   Brian L.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7739	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Penn-Line cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Penn-Line engines and cars You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Penn-Line%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7740	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Latest project for collection

Attachments :                 Wanted to show a couple of pictures of my latest project for my collection. This is a   Western Models of Portland, Oregon       S-2   1000 HP Alco Diesel Switcher. It was originally a kit that is made of photo engraved brass. It was partly assembled when I got it. I disassembled it and cleaned the brass. Was just going to let it unassembled but to many parts for the little box it came in. Previous owner had made a solid brass frame for it. Normally I would not use it but the original assembled frame was to fragile without it. I don't have much info about this item or company. I put it as made in the early 50's since it came with Mantua Loop Couplers and a Varney  coil spring belt / pulley drive.  This is the engine / motor  that I needed the insulated part for holding the brushes.                                                                                                       Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7741	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=230298460255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7742	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

Attachments : Jim-nice find.  I have never seen one of these-very nice detailing for a 50+ year old locomotive.  Thanks for sharing. JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 3:03 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection                   Wanted to show a couple of pictures of my latest project for my collection. This is a   Western Models of Portland, Oregon       S-2   1000 HP Alco Diesel Switcher. It was originally a kit that is made of photo engraved brass. It was partly assembled when I got it. I disassembled it and cleaned the brass. Was just going to let it unassembled but to many parts for the little box it came in. Previous owner had made a solid brass frame for it. Normally I would not use it but the original assembled frame was to fragile without it. I don't have much info about this item or company. I put it as made in the early 50's since it came with Mantua Loop Couplers and a Varney  coil spring belt / pulley drive.  This is the engine / motor  that I needed the insulated part for holding the brushes.                                                                                                       Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7743	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

This is one of those early models that were pretty well done. Replace the sand box doors, truck side frames and wire grabirons and it would look good on any layout. Nice find. Keep the photos coming. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Wanted to show a couple of pictures of my latest project for my collection. This is a Western Models of Portland, Oregon S-2 1000 HP Alco Diesel Switcher. It was originally a kit that is made of photo engraved brass. It was partly assembled when I got it. I disassembled it and cleaned the brass. Was just going to let it unassembled but to many parts for the little box it came in. Previous owner had made a solid brass frame for it. Normally I would not use it but the original assembled frame was to fragile without it. I don't have much info about this item or company. I put it as made in the early 50's since it came with Mantua Loop Couplers and a Varney coil spring belt / pulley drive. This is the engine / motor that I needed the insulated part for holding the brushes. > Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7744	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

That Baldwin looks pretty good too. Any idea of manufacturer? Looks to set up for a Linsay power truck. Sold for a reasonable price too. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > Hi Jim , > just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought > this might be of interest for you > > Gerold > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=230298460255 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7745	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Me too

Now You guys have me going. I just made two purchases off eBay. A Mantua Prairie with a missing smoke box front and a Mantua 0-6-0 with the (good) old diecast boiler. Going to put the 0-6-0 boiler on the 2- 6-2 drive and throw away the pilot and trailing trucks. Then I'll have a 0-6-0 with valve gear. Yeah I know there are valve gears available for the Mantua 0-6-0's but it's been a long time since I messed with those *#@& rivets and was never that good at them. Not even back when I still could see. I had a Mantua Big Six kit a few years ago that came with the valve gear but ended selling it during my "need cash" days. Getting back to the current purchase, I now have two different tenders to play with. My whole idea of doing this is to bash up a GB&W 0-6-0. I have several photos of GB&W 0-6-0's and it looks like this will be a good starting point for a couple of them BTW, I will be having some spare Mantua parts available for sale soon likely including the slope back tender John Hagen You don't have to be crazy to like switch engine better than 4-6-6- 4's but it helps.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7746	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7747	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/12/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7748	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

John, I am not sure who actually developed the molds, but it was offered for several years by Kemtron with a Lindsay power truck. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > That Baldwin looks pretty good too. Any idea of manufacturer? Looks to > set up for a Linsay power truck. > > Sold for a reasonable price too. > > John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7749	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7750	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

OK--as long as you COULD do it--a friend and I have run into a lot of models that came apart when we went to strip paint and found they had been glued together. I use an assortment of soldering tools--resistance, torches, and irons, depending on the job at hand.  I have made jigs for a number of projects.   Until the CA's with accelerants came along, I found that soldering was the only way to get a quick, solid joint.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7751	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

gj,            Believe me with over 150 steam and 200 diesels (all different and made between 1937-1977 with many being original kits) in my vintage HO collection I have done a lot of soldering. You talk about building jigs. That's why I mentioned a Winton Allegheny. I have not done many Kemtron other then to repair for others so I don't know how hard they can be but I will guess building the Winton 2-6-6-6 and 2-8-4 Berk would more then match Kemtron for needed ability.                 It's funny how different people have different ideas. If I bought an engine that I wanted to completely disassemble and rebuild I would be happy to find an engine that was "glued together". No need to spend time disassembling and cleaning up. Usually a soldered item has way to much solder on it and needs a lots of clean up. Guess after rebuilding so many items (all for my collection only) I just took an easier route this time. It's actually the first complete item I have done this way. Yes I have used AC and pinning to attach parts on models where only a few details have to be put back on. This items have been cleaned and are ready to be refurbished and painted (if wanted)                       I think it's great that you solder everything,especially if you have the "tools" to do. Definitely a stronger bond if done right and he more you do the better you get.. Some people don't and have to do the best they can. This was my attempt to see what I could do this way.                             Have a great day                     Jim H                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection OK--as long as you COULD do it--a friend and I have run into a lot of models that came apart when we went to strip paint and found they had been glued together. I use an assortment of soldering tools--resistance, torches, and irons, depending on the job at hand.  I have made jigs for a number of projects.   Until the CA's with accelerants came along, I found that soldering was the only way to get a quick, solid joint.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7752	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

I'll admit to some glued projects--especially on some of the old sand-cast bronze locos--Most of those are either OO or O Scale--like a Saginaw PRR 4-6-0 and 2-8-0--those things really soak up the heat.  Some things I find are better left in the box with what passes for instructions--like a Nason GG-1 in OO.  It is barely recognizable as a locomotive.    My Kemtron experience is mainly with the C-16 consolidations--I have built at least 8 of them.  I have a batch of Schorr OO F-3's--design of the shells is very much like the Varney HO locos--to the point I wonder if Schorr had been with Varney at some time.  Keep on building--however--glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection gj,            Believe me with over 150 steam and 200 diesels (all different and made between 1937-1977 with many being original kits) in my vintage HO collection I have done a lot of soldering. You talk about building jigs. That's why I mentioned a Winton Allegheny. I have not done many Kemtron other then to repair for others so I don't know how hard they can be but I will guess building the Winton 2-6-6-6 and 2-8-4 Berk would more then match Kemtron for needed ability.                 It's funny how different people have different ideas. If I bought an engine that I wanted to completely disassemble and rebuild I would be happy to find an engine that was "glued together". No need to spend time disassembling and cleaning up. Usually a soldered item has way to much solder on it and needs a lots of clean up. Guess after rebuilding so many items (all for my collection only) I just took an easier route this time. It's actually the first complete item I have done this way. Yes I have used AC and pinning to attach parts on models where only a few details have to be put back on. This items have been cleaned and are ready to be refurbished and painted (if wanted)                       I think it's great that you solder everything,especially if you have the "tools" to do. Definitely a stronger bond if done right and he more you do the better you get.. Some people don't and have to do the best they can. This was my attempt to see what I could do this way.                             Have a great day                     Jim H                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection OK--as long as you COULD do it--a friend and I have run into a lot of models that came apart when we went to strip paint and found they had been glued together. I use an assortment of soldering tools--resistance, torches, and irons, depending on the job at hand.  I have made jigs for a number of projects.   Until the CA's with accelerants came along, I found that soldering was the only way to get a quick, solid joint.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7753	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

Glenn,            Please help me. I have always been in HO and don't know much about OO. You mention Nason and Schorr. Can you give me an idea of when these items produced ??? I only know Lionel OO            You must really like those Kemtron C-16 to build 8 of them. For what it's worth I have never heard of any connection of Varney with Schorr. But that doesn't mean there wasn't especially if the casting company might have been Adams & Son. If you ever hear anything substantial that there was PLEASE let me know.                                    Time to shut down till later                          Jim H       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection I'll admit to some glued projects--especiall y on some of the old sand-cast bronze locos--Most of those are either OO or O Scale--like a Saginaw PRR 4-6-0 and 2-8-0--those things really soak up the heat.  Some things I find are better left in the box with what passes for instructions- -like a Nason GG-1 in OO.  It is barely recognizable as a locomotive.    My Kemtron experience is mainly with the C-16 consolidations- -I have built at least 8 of them.  I have a batch of Schorr OO F-3's--design of the shells is very much like the Varney HO locos--to the point I wonder if Schorr had been with Varney at some time.  Keep on building--however- -glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection gj,            Believe me with over 150 steam and 200 diesels (all different and made between 1937-1977 with many being original kits) in my vintage HO collection I have done a lot of soldering. You talk about building jigs. That's why I mentioned a Winton Allegheny. I have not done many Kemtron other then to repair for others so I don't know how hard they can be but I will guess building the Winton 2-6-6-6 and 2-8-4 Berk would more then match Kemtron for needed ability.                 It's funny how different people have different ideas. If I bought an engine that I wanted to completely disassemble and rebuild I would be happy to find an engine that was "glued together". No need to spend time disassembling and cleaning up. Usually a soldered item has way to much solder on it and needs a lots of clean up. Guess after rebuilding so many items (all for my collection only) I just took an easier route this time. It's actually the first complete item I have done this way. Yes I have used AC and pinning to attach parts on models where only a few details have to be put back on. This items have been cleaned and are ready to be refurbished and painted (if wanted)                       I think it's great that you solder everything,especial ly if you have the "tools" to do. Definitely a stronger bond if done right and he more you do the better you get.. Some people don't and have to do the best they can. This was my attempt to see what I could do this way.                             Have a great day                     Jim H                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection OK--as long as you COULD do it--a friend and I have run into a lot of models that came apart when we went to strip paint and found they had been glued together. I use an assortment of soldering tools--resistance, torches, and irons, depending on the job at hand.  I have made jigs for a number of projects.   Until the CA's with accelerants came along, I found that soldering was the only way to get a quick, solid joint.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7754	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Kemtron Brass Baldwin switcher on eBay: Was: latest project for col

This Kemtron HO Baldwin locomotive on eBay  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=230298460255 is neatly and accurately fabricated of soldered investment-cast and etched brass pieces. It is designed for a single Lindsay power truck, which will likely barely pull it out of a paper bag.  Two trucks can be fitted, but only with a lot of work.  The list price was $29.95 as depicted in the early Kemtron catalogues. I have always attributed the base source of this model originally to Lindsay, who sold out  at least some of his inventory to Kemtron c. 1955-60. Both outfits, had the capabilities to design and build it.  Glenn Joesten on this list will recognize the name of Fred Cribbins, from whose estate I received as a bequest my own example of this model  (1964).  Fred was one of the finest and most precise railroad modelers I will ever have known. On appearance alone, with some added detailing, this locomotive would stand up to any prototype-based current model. Denny     Denny S.  Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7755	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/13/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

US OO Scale (4mm = ft) was only produced in a rather short period--from about 1937 to 1953, or thereabouts--and even this was interrupted by WWII.  Lionel copied Scale Craft on their OO line. One of these days I'll go thru my files of MR--I have almost all--and see when the Nason GG-1 was produced. I'm guessing pre-war by the "quality" of the castings.  (Gee--I spent the last hour waiting for a lumber delivery--I could have looked then--) The Schorr F-3's are definitely post-war--they are actually a slightly later phase than the Varney in that they have the "chicken wire" sides.The similarity to the Varney locos is in the way the roof details are cast and inserted into the body, and the general configuration of the body.  I would guess as late as 1950--any later they probably would have done the F-7.  Both A units and one B unit are cast in brass, the other B is aluminum.    HO and OO appeared on the scene about the same time in the mid 1930's--there was a bit of a battle of the gauges--before 1942 OO had an edge as its slightly greater bulk accommodated the available motors better.  After the war smaller motors came along--possibly in part due to war equipment designs.  Also, several HO manufacturers got up and running with their lines quicker.  So, since the two scales were so close, HO managed to win the marketplace.    For quite a while the Kemtron C-16 was one of the few quality kits on the market in On3--my primary scale.  They are a fairly straight-forward model, once you get the frame assembled. I built the last four on the Rio Grande, and since I had gotten the practice, and the hang of them--I had several other guys ask me to build kits they had on hand.  Besides the four I kept, I did one as a C&S  loco--much like the article Harry Brunk had in RMC recently--and one an Nevada County NG #8, which was originally D&RGW #283 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Glenn,            Please help me. I have always been in HO and don't know much about OO. You mention Nason and Schorr. Can you give me an idea of when these items produced ??? I only know Lionel OO            You must really like those Kemtron C-16 to build 8 of them. For what it's worth I have never heard of any connection of Varney with Schorr. But that doesn't mean there wasn't especially if the casting company might have been Adams & Son. If you ever hear anything substantial that there was PLEASE let me know.                                    Time to shut down till later                          Jim H       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection I'll admit to some glued projects--especiall y on some of the old sand-cast bronze locos--Most of those are either OO or O Scale--like a Saginaw PRR 4-6-0 and 2-8-0--those things really soak up the heat.  Some things I find are better left in the box with what passes for instructions- -like a Nason GG-1 in OO.  It is barely recognizable as a locomotive.    My Kemtron experience is mainly with the C-16 consolidations- -I have built at least 8 of them.  I have a batch of Schorr OO F-3's--design of the shells is very much like the Varney HO locos--to the point I wonder if Schorr had been with Varney at some time.  Keep on building--however- -glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection gj,            Believe me with over 150 steam and 200 diesels (all different and made between 1937-1977 with many being original kits) in my vintage HO collection I have done a lot of soldering. You talk about building jigs. That's why I mentioned a Winton Allegheny. I have not done many Kemtron other then to repair for others so I don't know how hard they can be but I will guess building the Winton 2-6-6-6 and 2-8-4 Berk would more then match Kemtron for needed ability.                 It's funny how different people have different ideas. If I bought an engine that I wanted to completely disassemble and rebuild I would be happy to find an engine that was "glued together". No need to spend time disassembling and cleaning up. Usually a soldered item has way to much solder on it and needs a lots of clean up. Guess after rebuilding so many items (all for my collection only) I just took an easier route this time. It's actually the first complete item I have done this way. Yes I have used AC and pinning to attach parts on models where only a few details have to be put back on. This items have been cleaned and are ready to be refurbished and painted (if wanted)                       I think it's great that you solder everything,especial ly if you have the "tools" to do. Definitely a stronger bond if done right and he more you do the better you get.. Some people don't and have to do the best they can. This was my attempt to see what I could do this way.                             Have a great day                     Jim H                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection OK--as long as you COULD do it--a friend and I have run into a lot of models that came apart when we went to strip paint and found they had been glued together. I use an assortment of soldering tools--resistance, torches, and irons, depending on the job at hand.  I have made jigs for a number of projects.   Until the CA's with accelerants came along, I found that soldering was the only way to get a quick, solid joint.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7756	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

Jim, I have built four O Scale Kemtron locos (three more sitting on the shelf) and 2 HO scale kits (and nine more on the shelf) and I agree with your comments. If you are going to solder a model, building the jigs and tooling to 'do it right the first time' is something it took me two kits to figure out. I have also done another eight or nine bronze/brass/diecast kits from the same era and there are some distinct differences as you allude to. In one sense the Kemtron kits are easy in that they use thin formed brass for the boilers. They are easy to solder detail casting to. The Winton Allegheny had a cast bronze boiler (as did a couple of the early diesel kits I have built) and the amount of heat needed to make a good solder joint surpasses any iron I have in my inventory. I have either had to use a torch or use resistance soldering (harder for long joints with bronze body castings though.) I have come to use ACC for final detail bits on some of my latest projects. I think of it as a form of paint or finish rather than part of the structural part of the loco though. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > gj, > Believe me with over 150 steam and 200 diesels (all different and made between 1937-1977 with many being original kits) in my vintage HO collection I have done a lot of soldering. You talk about building jigs. That's why I mentioned a Winton Allegheny. I have not done many Kemtron other then to repair for others so I don't know how hard they can be but I will guess building the Winton 2-6-6- 6 and 2-8-4 Berk would more then match Kemtron for needed ability. > > It's funny how different people have different ideas. If I bought an engine that I wanted to completely disassemble and rebuild I would be happy to find an engine that was "glued together". No need to spend time disassembling and cleaning up. Usually a soldered item has way to much solder on it and needs a lots of clean up. Guess after rebuilding so many items (all for my collection only) I just took an easier route this time. It's actually the first complete item I have done this way. Yes I have used AC and pinning to attach parts on models where only a few details have to be put back on. This items have been cleaned and are ready to be refurbished and painted (if wanted) > > I think it's great that you solder everything,especially if you have the "tools" to do. Definitely a stronger bond if done right and he more you do the better you get.. Some people don't and have to do the best they can. This was my attempt to see what I could do this way. > Have a great day Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7757	From: Fred Alles	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels

I am in need of several small plastic gears that fit the powered wheel and axels on Gilbert F9 diesels. Gilbert seemed to have a problem with these splitting and then binding so the engine can't move. They fit over the wheel axel to engage the drive shaft. There is one on each axel. Anyone know where I can get any? I understand they also are the same as used on Marx HO Diesels as well but not sure. Thanks for any help. Fred

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7758	From: jay matz	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels

Fred Check with Northwest Short Line http://www.nwsl.com/ Jay --- On Tue, 10/14/08, Fred Alles <falles@...> wrote: From: Fred Alles <falles@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 10:15 AM I am in need of several small plastic gears that fit the powered wheel and axels on Gilbert F9 diesels. Gilbert seemed to have a problem with these splitting and then binding so the engine can't move. They fit over the wheel axel to engage the drive shaft. There is one on each axel. Anyone know where I can get any? I understand they also are the same as used on Marx HO Diesels as well but not sure. Thanks for any help. Fred

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7759	From: Jay Matz	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels

Fred Check with Northwest Short Line http://www.nwsl.com/ Jay>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7760	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels

you might see what NWSL has--find a set that has the same center-to-center distance. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Alles" <falles@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:15 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels >I am in need of several small plastic gears that fit the powered wheel and > axels on Gilbert F9 diesels. Gilbert seemed to have a problem with these > splitting and then binding so the engine can't move. They fit over the > wheel axel to engage the drive shaft. There is one on each axel. Anyone > know where I can get any? I understand they also are the same as used on > Marx HO Diesels as well but not sure. Thanks for any help. Fred > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7761	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Kemtron Brass Baldwin switcher on eBay

Seems there is another one... http://cgi.ebay.com/Ho-trains-Unknown-brass-diesel-needs-work_W0QQitemZ200263534112 Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7762	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

Jim, have you ever thought of trying to make some Resin molds of the engine and letting some other people try to build the thing too? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:06:00 -0400      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255 -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7763	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

Charlie--what would be the point in that?  It wouldn't be a true copy of the original, and there are plenty of injection-molded locos out there.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Jim, have you ever thought of trying to make some Resin molds of the engine and letting some other people try to build the thing too? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:06:00 -0400      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255 -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7764	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

I agree. The plastic models on the market are much more accurate than the old stuff, including this example. The whole idea of building the old kits up are to build old kits. What makes the old stuff interesting is the history. Reproductions are reproductions, not history. The only way to duplicate the old kits would be to have or duplicate all the old tooling and produce the kits using the same media as the original. That isn't practical in your wildest dreams. If you would cast duplicates, what you would essentially have is a poorly done, inaccurate new kit. That isn't practical in your wildest dreams. John Hagen St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Charlie--what would be the point in that? It wouldn't be a true copy of the original, and there are plenty of injection-molded locos out there. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles Windes > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? > > > Jim, have you ever thought of trying to make some Resin molds of the engine and letting some other people try to build the thing too? > Charlie >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7765	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

Charlie,                   A novel and interesting idea. The bad part is I have never made parts from molds and from resin. I don't have any knowledge right of the bat although I don't think it would be hard. I don't have any supplies to start with . Also I think there would be a shrinkage problem and in the case of this engine the parts fit poorly to start with. Last would be the time. Not knowing how much time would be needed I have to many backed up projects on my work bench. Some for to long. I have to put my time into this area.                                                Thanks for the thought.        Jim H                   ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Jim, have you ever thought of trying to make some Resin molds of the engine and letting some other people try to build the thing too? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:06:00 -0400      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255 -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7766	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection

Hi Matt,                I'm going to have to look into some of those Kemtron Engine Kits. I only ever fooled around with their Centipede tender and then got rid of it as not fitting in what I collect.          I totally agree that the best thing would be to solder everything. If I lived back when you had no choice you would have to do it. But with the advent of "Super" adhesives it has become easier in that sense. It saves you in buying the needed equipment (irons) to do the best soldering job.          I use to be a welder and later a draftsman. As I aged the ability to hold an arc welding and follow the puddle has become harder with the shakes. Same with drafting. Before CAD CAM you had to hand letter and even ink drawings. There is no way now that I could do this. That goes for soldering. It's getting harder and harder to do fine parts. I envy anyone that can take an entire project that needs to be soldered and doesn't cheat. Lately I have to cheat and as I age maybe more and more. That's one of the reasons I tried this project with modern methods. (AC and Epoxy) Wanted to see how bad it would work and what would hold without a little bracing. Teaching an old dog new tricks shall we say.         I have been called a fanatic even anal when it comes to restoring vintage to original. This project actually goes against the grain. Yet it still is model railroading. And that is what it is all about. Doing what you can, the best you can BUT still having fun doing it.                                                                                 Jim         ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:43 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Latest project for collection Jim, I have built four O Scale Kemtron locos (three more sitting on the shelf) and 2 HO scale kits (and nine more on the shelf) and I agree with your comments. If you are going to solder a model, building the jigs and tooling to 'do it right the first time' is something it took me two kits to figure out. I have also done another eight or nine bronze/brass/ diecast kits from the same era and there are some distinct differences as you allude to. In one sense the Kemtron kits are easy in that they use thin formed brass for the boilers. They are easy to solder detail casting to. The Winton Allegheny had a cast bronze boiler (as did a couple of the early diesel kits I have built) and the amount of heat needed to make a good solder joint surpasses any iron I have in my inventory. I have either had to use a torch or use resistance soldering (harder for long joints with bronze body castings though.) I have come to use ACC for final detail bits on some of my latest projects. I think of it as a form of paint or finish rather than part of the structural part of the loco though. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > gj, > Believe me with over 150 steam and 200 diesels (all different and made between 1937-1977 with many being original kits) in my vintage HO collection I have done a lot of soldering. You talk about building jigs. That's why I mentioned a Winton Allegheny. I have not done many Kemtron other then to repair for others so I don't know how hard they can be but I will guess building the Winton 2-6-6- 6 and 2-8-4 Berk would more then match Kemtron for needed ability. > > It's funny how different people have different ideas. If I bought an engine that I wanted to completely disassemble and rebuild I would be happy to find an engine that was "glued together". No need to spend time disassembling and cleaning up. Usually a soldered item has way to much solder on it and needs a lots of clean up. Guess after rebuilding so many items (all for my collection only) I just took an easier route this time. It's actually the first complete item I have done this way. Yes I have used AC and pinning to attach parts on models where only a few details have to be put back on. This items have been cleaned and are ready to be refurbished and painted (if wanted) > > I think it's great that you solder everything,especial ly if you have the "tools" to do. Definitely a stronger bond if done right and he more you do the better you get.. Some people don't and have to do the best they can. This was my attempt to see what I could do this way. > Have a great day Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7767	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Resin

Jim Heckard wrote: > Charlie, > A novel and interesting idea. The bad part is I have > never made parts from molds and from resin. I don't have any knowledge > right of the bat although I don't think it would be hard. I don't have > any supplies to start with . Also I think there would be a shrinkage > problem and in the case of this engine the parts fit poorly to start > with. Last would be the time. Not knowing how much time would be > needed I have to many backed up projects on my work bench. Some for to > long. I have to put my time into this area. > Thanks for the > thought. Jim H It makes sense to do parts in resin if you 1) want to make multiples of one part / model 2) if you want to create something not available otherwise. I have often built models by combining parts from commercial models; instead of cutting them apart I copied the necessary parts and rearranged the castings to suit my needs - for example, to create a car with a window arrangement not available like the Suydam combine that was supposed to be a Jewett but was wrongly manufactured to look like a Niles car... I used sides and roof of the Suydam car, reduced the number of windows, and substituted Jewett ends. And I still have the "wrong" combine left undamaged. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7768	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 10/14/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

Hi Jim,   As a caster myself, there is a certain amount of learning to it, it isn't as diffacult as it is time consuming, for most 3 demensional parts, you will want at least a 2 part mold, you can get supplies from Micro Mark, their starter kit is I think still around $80, not a bad price to give it a try, there is all kinds of information all over the internet on the how its done part...........;o)   Gary W   From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 5:31:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Charlie,                   A novel and interesting idea. The bad part is I have never made parts from molds and from resin. I don't have any knowledge right of the bat although I don't think it would be hard. I don't have any supplies to start with . Also I think there would be a shrinkage problem and in the case of this engine the parts fit poorly to start with. Last would be the time. Not knowing how much time would be needed I have to many backed up projects on my work bench. Some for to long. I have to put my time into this area.                                                Thanks for the thought.        Jim H                   ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Jim, have you ever thought of trying to make some Resin molds of the engine and letting some other people try to build the thing too? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:06:00 -0400      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255 -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7769	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Gears for Gilbert HO Diesels

Fred, I was told (but haven't actually checked it) that you can substitute the Athearn axle gears for the Gilbert gears. There is a seller on eBay called K4Pacific (I could be wrong) who sells a lot of Athearn repair parts and I bought some Athearn gears from him at the suggestion of one of the group members. I have used them on several brands of locos now to repair split gears and am amazed at their ability to work with a variety of manufacturers worms. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Alles <falles@...> wrote: > > I am in need of several small plastic gears that fit the powered wheel and > axels on Gilbert F9 diesels. Gilbert seemed to have a problem with these > splitting and then binding so the engine can't move. They fit over the > wheel axel to engage the drive shaft. There is one on each axel. Anyone > know where I can get any? I understand they also are the same as used on > Marx HO Diesels as well but not sure. Thanks for any help. Fred >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7770	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

Some folks like to have a copy of the original incase something goes wrong and they have something to base their rebuild on,, and it was just a thought I have never been savvy enough to use resin anyhow. Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn476" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:30:30 -0700 Charlie--what would be the point in that?  It wouldn't be a true copy of the original, and there are plenty of injection-molded locos out there.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Jim, have you ever thought of trying to make some Resin molds of the engine and letting some other people try to build the thing too? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:06:00 -0400      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255 -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7771	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

Jim I do agree with you about not knowing how or the cost, I myself would rather have a poor original than a really crappy copy. Like I said to others in a previous post "just a thought" Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:31:29 -0400 Charlie,                   A novel and interesting idea. The bad part is I have never made parts from molds and from resin. I don't have any knowledge right of the bat although I don't think it would be hard. I don't have any supplies to start with . Also I think there would be a shrinkage problem and in the case of this engine the parts fit poorly to start with. Last would be the time. Not knowing how much time would be needed I have to many backed up projects on my work bench. Some for to long. I have to put my time into this area.                                                Thanks for the thought.        Jim H                   ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Jim, have you ever thought of trying to make some Resin molds of the engine and letting some other people try to build the thing too? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:06:00 -0400      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255 -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7772	From: Andrew Bell	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Old model kit

Gentlemen, As some of you seem to like old kits here is one that I'm interested in selling, I bought it to build then my ideas on my layout changed. Arbour Models H8-2 2-6-6-6 Allegheny complete all parts in plastic and with all instructions. I'd like to get $150 if possible, plus shipping and this model is heavy approx 4 pounds. Anyone interested please e-mail and we can converse. Thanks much Andy Bell Portland OR

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7773	From: Steven Winter	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Marx HO

How do you remove  the trucks from Marx HO cars? I've been trying to gently but firmly pry them with a flathead screwdriver. They will not budge and I don't want to break anything.   Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7774	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

I agree with you guys on many levels....... But I also know how easy resin casting can be....... Look over these....... http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/SquishMold.cfm http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/SlushCasting.cfm http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/SlotCarCast.cfm http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/TailLightCastingNoEquipment.cfm Even in metallic........ http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/CastingMetallicPowders.cfm Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Oct 15, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Charles Windes wrote: Jim I do agree with you about not knowing how or the cost, I myself would rather have a poor original than a really crappy copy. Like I said to others in a previous post "just a thought" Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard"  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:31:29 -0400 Charlie,                   A novel and interesting idea. The bad part is I have never made parts from molds and from resin. I don't have any knowledge right of the bat although I don't think it would be hard. I don't have any supplies to start with . Also I think there would be a shrinkage problem and in the case of this engine the parts fit poorly to start with. Last would be the time. Not knowing how much time would be needed I have to many backed up projects on my work bench. Some for to long. I have to put my time into this area.                                                Thanks for the thought.        Jim H                   ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Windes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Question?? Jim, have you ever thought of trying to make some Resin molds of the engine and letting some other people try to build the thing too? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard"  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:06:00 -0400      Sorry gj but I have done enough soldering in my lifetime, such as my Winton Allegheny, that even if this is straight forward or not I'm taking a short cut. While the kit itself is nicely detailed the parts are not good fits along with trying to construct the frame as they show as parts are weak and fragile. Easier to "glue" then try to align, clamp and solder      I have both types of soldering tools, regular and resistance. I just wanted to see what I could accomplish this way.                                                                                                             Jim H           ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Well--come on.  You are supposed to solder it together.  From the pictures it seems fairly straight forward.  It looks like the sort of kit you would learn to solder on.   gj   8^)   hen build a Kemtron loco kit.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Gerold,           Thanks for the tip. Had seen this and the sellers entire list of what he said was from up to 60 years old. Not sure who made it. I thought it was a Cary body at first but didn't follow up on it. Sold pretty cheap. Might have been worth it just to see what it was.          The engine (S-2) I'm working on might look nice but poorly fitting pieces. Doing a lot of filing, fitting and filing in. Using no solder.  AC and epoxy only. A nice challenge.                                                                                 Jim                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerold Eckl To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Latest project for collection Hi Jim , just stumbled over this one --- no time to check and compare but thought  this might be of interest for you Gerold http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=23029846 0255

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7775	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 2:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Latest project for collection Question?? >I agree. The plastic models on the market are much more accurate than > the old stuff, including this example. > > The whole idea of building the old kits up are to build old kits. > What makes the old stuff interesting is the history. Reproductions > are reproductions, not history. The only way to duplicate the old > kits would be to have or duplicate all the old tooling and produce > the kits using the same media as the original. That isn't practical > in your wildest dreams. If you would cast duplicates, what you would > essentially have is a poorly done, inaccurate new kit. That isn't > practical in your wildest dreams. > > John Hagen > St. Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI This from the guy who printed me a decal copy of a Varney car side? <GD&R>! Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7776	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Marx HO

----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Winter" <steven_winter@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; <MarxTrain@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:57 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Marx HO > How do you remove the trucks from Marx HO cars? I've been trying to > gently but firmly pry them with a flathead screwdriver. They will not > budge and I don't want to break anything. > > Steve > > If you find out, let me know! (I wound up filling the holes with epoxy and screw mounting new trucks) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7777	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/15/2008
Subject: Re: Latest project for collection Question??

Hey, That was per your request! BTW, I have additional colors to work with now and probably do a much better job of color matching using spot colors. Unfortunately, I no longer have the graphic to work with. That was before my harddrive crashed last year. Let me know if you are interested. John Hagen St Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > This from the guy who printed me a decal copy of a Varney car side? <GD&R>! > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7778	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Shoreham NP slumbercoach

H'lo all! Perhaps marginal to 'vintage', but I am hoping someone can advise on the appropriate truck set for the above, which I found truckless...I haven't found a decent lateral photograph of the car, but a drawing I found on Google specifies 8'6" centre 4-wheelers. Walthers? Thanks in anticipation! Chrs, Russ Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7779	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Re: Shoreham NP slumbercoach

Attachments : Budd cars generally used General Steel GSC 41 type 4 wheel trucks.  Walthers carries them-#933-1060 for the outside swing hanger with clasp brakes, and 933-1305 for the trucks with disc brakes.  The NP cars probably had the clasp brake type trucks.   Jerry Garteiser   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Russ Shiel Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 6:11 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Shoreham NP slumbercoach   H'lo all! Perhaps marginal to 'vintage', but I am hoping someone can advise on the appropriate truck set for the above, which I found truckless...I haven't found a decent lateral photograph of the car, but a drawing I found on Google specifies 8'6" centre 4-wheelers. Walthers? Thanks in anticipation! Chrs, Russ   Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7780	From: frank	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Hello everybody !

Just joined group. Long time modler. I have some old stuff to talk of and show. I don't sell my stuff tho I can sometimes help out. Frank O toptrain

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7781	From: frank	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Me again !

I started a album and placed 6 photos their. Hobbyline, Marx, Gilbert, and Lionel. frank

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7782	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Re: Me again !

----- Original Message ----- From: "frank" <toptrain2100@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Me again ! > I started a album and placed 6 photos their. Hobbyline, Marx, Gilbert, > and Lionel. > frank > > Welcome aboard. I hope you enjoy the ride. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7783	From: oahurailway	Date: 10/16/2008
Subject: Re: Me again !

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "frank" <toptrain2100@...> wrote: > > I started a album and placed 6 photos their. Hobbyline, Marx, Gilbert, > and Lionel. > frank > Happy rails to you Frank! Welcome! Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7784	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !

Frank, Thanks for posting the photos! I have a question about the Lionel Pacific. What is the motor like in it -- is it a permag, open-frame motor or does it have a wound field-coil? And is it a worm-and-gear drive or is it a spur-gear drive? I am asking because the chassis bears a strong resemblance to the Champ 2-6-2's that show up on eBay occaisionally and I was wondering if there was a common source for them. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "frank" <toptrain2100@...> wrote: > > I started a album and placed 6 photos their. Hobbyline, Marx, Gilbert, > and Lionel. > frank >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7785	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !

Mine has a permag motor......... Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Oct 17, 2008, at 6:18 AM, mmattjcoleman wrote: > Frank, > > Thanks for posting the photos! I have a question about the Lionel > Pacific. What is the motor like in it -- is it a permag, open-frame > motor or does it have a wound field-coil? And is it a worm-and-gear > drive or is it a spur-gear drive? > > I am asking because the chassis bears a strong resemblance to the > Champ 2-6-2's that show up on eBay occaisionally and I was wondering > if there was a common source for them. > > Matt Coleman > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "frank" <toptrain2100@...> wrote: >> >> I started a album and placed 6 photos their. Hobbyline, Marx, > Gilbert, >> and Lionel. >> frank >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7786	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !

Hi Matt,                       Concerning that 2-6-2 Prairie engine sold by Champ. It was made a Japanese company called Saki. While I don't think they had anything directly to do with Lionel it's possible they may have copied although I don't remember them being to similar.           Lionel Pacific's were made from dies acquired from John English metal steam engines and made into plastic. If you can get a copy of Greenberg's guide to Lionel HO by Vince Rosa and George Horan you will see pictures of the different numbered Pacific's Lionel produced. Also a good history of the connection Lionel had using Rivarossi, Athearn and John English/Hobbyline. My opinion is that the motors used were not very good. Didn't seem to hold up or stand the test of time. Others might have different thoughts.                                                                                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:18 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again ! Frank, Thanks for posting the photos! I have a question about the Lionel Pacific. What is the motor like in it -- is it a permag, open-frame motor or does it have a wound field-coil? And is it a worm-and-gear drive or is it a spur-gear drive? I am asking because the chassis bears a strong resemblance to the Champ 2-6-2's that show up on eBay occaisionally and I was wondering if there was a common source for them. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "frank" <toptrain2100@ ...> wrote: > > I started a album and placed 6 photos their. Hobbyline, Marx, Gilbert, > and Lionel. > frank >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7787	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Blue Line IC 85' passenger cars

Hope somebody will have pity and rescue these 7 cars now on eBay: 320311305935. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7788	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !

As I recall, Lionel was dependent on Athearn for a lot of their HO line in the fifties and sixties--could be that they cot caught up in the long production delays of Athearn's Pacific--eventually got Rivarossi to supply it. In either case the motors would have been Permag. I do not think that Lionel used series-field motors in the smaller scales after WWII. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 4:18 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again ! > Frank, > > Thanks for posting the photos! I have a question about the Lionel > Pacific. What is the motor like in it -- is it a permag, open-frame > motor or does it have a wound field-coil? And is it a worm-and-gear > drive or is it a spur-gear drive? > > I am asking because the chassis bears a strong resemblance to the > Champ 2-6-2's that show up on eBay occaisionally and I was wondering > if there was a common source for them. > > Matt Coleman > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "frank" <toptrain2100@...> wrote: >> >> I started a album and placed 6 photos their. Hobbyline, Marx, > Gilbert, >> and Lionel. >> frank >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7789	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !

Two general problems with steam-type locos in that era:  the motors were not really adequate--similar to a Pittman DC-62--and they depended on the motor mounting to maintain worm and gear mesh, rather than a separate gearbox as Mantua used on the die-cast versions of the Pacific and Mikado.  That one was simple but it did the job. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again ! Hi Matt,                       Concerning that 2-6-2 Prairie engine sold by Champ. It was made a Japanese company called Saki. While I don't think they had anything directly to do with Lionel it's possible they may have copied although I don't remember them being to similar.           Lionel Pacific's were made from dies acquired from John English metal steam engines and made into plastic. If you can get a copy of Greenberg's guide to Lionel HO by Vince Rosa and George Horan you will see pictures of the different numbered Pacific's Lionel produced. Also a good history of the connection Lionel had using Rivarossi, Athearn and John English/Hobbyline. My opinion is that the motors used were not very good. Didn't seem to hold up or stand the test of time. Others might have different thoughts.                                                                                               Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:18 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again ! Frank, Thanks for posting the photos! I have a question about the Lionel Pacific. What is the motor like in it -- is it a permag, open-frame motor or does it have a wound field-coil? And is it a worm-and-gear drive or is it a spur-gear drive? I am asking because the chassis bears a strong resemblance to the Champ 2-6-2's that show up on eBay occaisionally and I was wondering if there was a common source for them. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "frank" <toptrain2100@ ...> wrote: > > I started a album and placed 6 photos their. Hobbyline, Marx, Gilbert, > and Lionel. > frank >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7790	From: Charlie	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Athearn Turbine

Did Athearn sell a turbine in the 60s or 70s ?  What was the part #.   Thks   Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7791	From: John Barlow	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

No! In those days any U.P. turbine was brass in medium of build.   John --- On Fri, 10/17/08, Charlie <railroads@...> wrote: From: Charlie <railroads@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 5:44 PM Did Athearn sell a turbine in the 60s or 70s ?  What was the part #.   Thks   Charlie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7792	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

No they did not. In the 1988 Walthers catalog there's a "new" model of the "UP 4500 HP 'Baby' Turbine" by "D. Peters Models" that was a plastic (resin?) body using Athearn drive components. That may be what you're thinking of? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:44 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine Did Athearn sell a turbine in the 60s or 70s ? What was the part #. Thks Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7793	From: Andrew Bell	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Dan Bush

Dan, I e-mailed you twice and didn't hear anything back. Sometimes my e-mail name gets buried in the "not good" file. If you are still interested in the kit could you please e-mail me your phone # and I will call you. Thanks much Andy Bell belsonic@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7794	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/17/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

not that I recall  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Charlie To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 4:44 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine Did Athearn sell a turbine in the 60s or 70s ?  What was the part #.   Thks   Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7795	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Lionel Pacific was:Re: Me again !

Jam (and all), Thanks for the history and the information! I never knew who the Champ builder was and my impression of similarity was based on appearance only (especially in the drivers.) Thanks for the help! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Matt, > > Concerning that 2-6-2 Prairie engine sold by Champ. It was made a Japanese company called Saki. While I don't think they had anything directly to do with Lionel it's possible they may have copied although I don't remember them being to similar. > Lionel Pacific's were made from dies acquired from John English metal steam engines and made into plastic. If you can get a copy of Greenberg's guide to Lionel HO by Vince Rosa and George Horan you will see pictures of the different numbered Pacific's Lionel produced. Also a good history of the connection Lionel had using Rivarossi, Athearn and John English/Hobbyline. My opinion is that the motors used were not very good. Didn't seem to hold up or stand the test of time. Others might have different thoughts. > Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7796	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

There also was that very limited production  single unit UP turbine that was a start-up product of a new company. It  was one of the single-ended units, had Athearn  drive components, and I think it was  a styrene casting. I think I remember Walthers carried it for one or two years, although that may have only been in the Terminal Hobby division. Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Oct 17, 2008, at 8:25 PM, John Barlow wrote: No! In those days any U.P. turbine was brass in medium of build.   John --- On Fri, 10/17/08, Charlie <railroads@...> wrote: From: Charlie <railroads@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 5:44 PM Did Athearn sell a turbine in the 60s or 70s ?  What was the part #.   Thks   Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7797	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

That's the "D Peters" one I mentioned in my post. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:01 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine > There also was that very limited production single unit UP turbine > that was a start-up product of a new company. It was one of the > single-ended units, had Athearn drive components, and I think it > was a styrene casting. > > I think I remember Walthers carried it for one or two years, although > that may have only been in the Terminal Hobby division. > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Oct 17, 2008, at 8:25 PM, John Barlow wrote: > >> No! In those days any U.P. turbine was brass in medium of build. >> >> John >> >> --- On Fri, 10/17/08, Charlie <railroads@...> wrote: >> From: Charlie <railroads@...> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 5:44 PM >> >> Did Athearn sell a turbine in the 60s or 70s ? What was the part #. >> >> Thks >> >> Charlie >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7798	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Sorry Don, I missed that...... That one batch of messages didn't get into my Morning-table MacMini, this breakfast. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Oct 18, 2008, at 9:14 AM, Don Dellmann wrote: > That's the "D Peters" one I mentioned in my post. > > Don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" > > >> There also was that very limited production single unit UP turbine >> that was a start-up product of a new company. It was one of the >> single-ended units, had Athearn drive components, and I think it >> was a styrene casting. >> >> I think I remember Walthers carried it for one or two years, although >> that may have only been in the Terminal Hobby division. >> >> On Oct 17, 2008, at 8:25 PM, John Barlow wrote: >> >>> No! In those days any U.P. turbine was brass in medium of build. >>> >>> John >>> >>> --- On Fri, 10/17/08, Charlie >>> >>> Did Athearn sell a turbine in the 60s or 70s ? What was the part #. >>> >>> Thks >>> >>> Charlie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7799	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

I got to thinking--I had a project of mine didn't get out--back in the early sixties I picked up a painted brass body for the early UP turbine, in HO. I fiddled with it and worked drive from the early Athearn F-7 drives--working it over to drive all 4 trucks--main problem was putting proper truck frames on it. don't think this got out--that's about the time I was getting seriously into Ob5--sold a lot of HO--then I got my "Greetings" from Rich Uncle Sam and I dumped a lot. Came up fro air in DC and hooked up with John Armstrong and Ted Stepek. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine > Sorry Don, > > I missed that...... > > That one batch of messages didn't get into my Morning-table MacMini, > this breakfast. > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Oct 18, 2008, at 9:14 AM, Don Dellmann wrote: > >> That's the "D Peters" one I mentioned in my post. >> >> Don >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Bauers" >> >> >>> There also was that very limited production single unit UP turbine >>> that was a start-up product of a new company. It was one of the >>> single-ended units, had Athearn drive components, and I think it >>> was a styrene casting. >>> >>> I think I remember Walthers carried it for one or two years, although >>> that may have only been in the Terminal Hobby division. >>> >>> On Oct 17, 2008, at 8:25 PM, John Barlow wrote: >>> >>>> No! In those days any U.P. turbine was brass in medium of build. >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>> --- On Fri, 10/17/08, Charlie >>>> >>>> Did Athearn sell a turbine in the 60s or 70s ? What was the part #. >>>> >>>> Thks >>>> >>>> Charlie > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7800	From: Charlie	Date: 10/18/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Hi folks     Thanks for the info.   That must be the one I heard about.   Next question - anyone got one for sale ?   And another - would someone be able to email the Walthers catalog listing and photo ?  to me.   Thks Charlie Harris New Zealand     ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:14 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine That's the "D Peters" one I mentioned in my post. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:01 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine > There also was that very limited production single unit UP turbine > that was a start-up product of a new company. It was one of the > single-ended units, had Athearn drive components, and I think it > was a styrene casting. > > I think I remember Walthers carried it for one or two years, although > that may have only been in the Terminal Hobby division. > > Best to ya' > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee Wi, USA > > > On Oct 17, 2008, at 8:25 PM, John Barlow wrote: > >> No! In those days any U.P. turbine was brass in medium of build. >> >> John >> >> --- On Fri, 10/17/08, Charlie <railroads@tech- j.biz> wrote: >> From: Charlie <railroads@tech- j.biz> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine >> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com >> Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 5:44 PM >> >> Did Athearn sell a turbine in the 60s or 70s ? What was the part #. >> >> Thks >> >> Charlie >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7801	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Attachments : Charlie wrote: Hi folks     Thanks for the info.   That must be the one I heard about.   Next question - anyone got one for sale ?   And another - would someone be able to email the Walthers catalog listing and photo ?  to me.   Thks Charlie Harris New Zealand Hi Charlie, browsed my filse and came up with a picture of a "plastic Turbine" that was sold at eBay - my PC says I have saved the picture in August 2002 - , and with an ad from "Assoziated Models, St.Louis", from March 1960. Dont know if ad + model concern the same thing , wonder  if the model might be the "D.Peters" model mentioned by Don? Also, there was a company (Resintrains... think the same company as Miracle castings under another name? ) in Canada that released a Standard Turbine shortly before the Lionel Veranda.  It looked  quite good and utilized Athearn comonents in a custom frame, only  the inner trucks were powered.  Have the pictures of the Body + drive if somebody is interested. I think this project was killed by the Lionel release. Wrong Time, wrong place.... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7802	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Attachments : Here's a detail of the page from the 1988 Walthers catalog. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine Hi folks Thanks for the info. That must be the one I heard about. Next question - anyone got one for sale ? And another - would someone be able to email the Walthers catalog listing and photo ? to me. Thks Charlie Harris New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7803	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Gerold I am intrested in them. The other Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 09:06:49 +0200 Charlie wrote: Hi folks     Thanks for the info.   That must be the one I heard about.   Next question - anyone got one for sale ?   And another - would someone be able to email the Walthers catalog listing and photo ?  to me.   Thks Charlie Harris New Zealand Hi Charlie, browsed my filse and came up with a picture of a "plastic Turbine" that was sold at eBay - my PC says I have saved the picture in August 2002 - , and with an ad from "Assoziated Models, St.Louis", from March 1960. Dont know if ad + model concern the same thing , wonder  if the model might be the "D.Peters" model mentioned by Don? Also, there was a company (Resintrains... think the same company as Miracle castings under another name? ) in Canada that released a Standard Turbine shortly before the Lionel Veranda.  It looked  quite good and utilized Athearn comonents in a custom frame, only  the inner trucks were powered.  Have the pictures of the Body + drive if somebody is interested. I think this project was killed by the Lionel release. Wrong Time, wrong place.... Gerold << unknown UP plastic Turbine.jpg >> << ad Associated Models UP turbine 0360.jpg >> -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7804	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Attachments : Charles , here they come... noticce now that my memory cheated me, the OUTER trucks are powered... have downloaded those pictures from the Resintrains website in February 2004. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7805	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/19/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

seems she is on auction right now.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280278500077 reral span bolsters,and ladders next to the outer trucks - wonder what radius she would accept? The Soho and Balboa Turbines have a different (wrong) arrangement with the trucks next to the ladders mounted rigidly, and the others swiveling freely - and they still are demanding re curvature. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7806	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

From the looks of the drive I'd say this is definitely the D Peters model. If I had the money I'd bid on it myself. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 1:41 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine > seems she is on auction right now.... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280278500077 > > reral span bolsters,and ladders next to the outer trucks - wonder what > radius she would accept? The Soho and Balboa Turbines have a different > (wrong) arrangement with the trucks next to the ladders mounted rigidly, > and the others swiveling freely - and they still are demanding re > curvature. > > Gerold > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7807	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: check out

Hi,          Since members are sharing Ebay numbers I want to add one mostly for Gerold. Go to item HO NKP (NAP made in Japan) Engine. I was following this because the body looks like cast brass to me and not normal for early Japanese. I won't be bidding on it since I just bought a George Stock GG-1. Gerold or any one else might be interested.                                                                                             Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7808	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: check out

Sorry I forgot the number    260300138253 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:49 AM Subject: check out Hi,          Since members are sharing Ebay numbers I want to add one mostly for Gerold. Go to item HO NKP (NAP made in Japan) Engine. I was following this because the body looks like cast brass to me and not normal for early Japanese. I won't be bidding on it since I just bought a George Stock GG-1. Gerold or any one else might be interested.                                                                                             Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7809	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Is nice, notice how everyone puts in rare, or hard to find in their auctions, a person can have twenty of them on a shelf right in front of them, but the auction seller always has a rare, har-to -find one, go figure. The Other Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:41:57 +0200 > > > seems she is on auction right now.... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280278500077 > > reral span bolsters,and ladders next to the outer trucks - wonder what > radius she would accept? The Soho and Balboa Turbines have a different > (wrong) arrangement with the trucks next to the ladders mounted rigidly, > and the others swiveling freely - and they still are demanding re > curvature. > > Gerold > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Video: Hollywood Life's 5th Annual Style Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/Awards.aspx?AwardsID=style2008

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7810	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: check out

Jim Heckard wrote: Sorry I forgot the number    260300138253 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:49 AM Subject: check out Hi,          Since members are sharing Ebay numbers I want to add one mostly for Gerold. Go to item HO NKP (NAP made in Japan) Engine. I was following this because the body looks like cast brass to me and not normal for early Japanese. I won't be bidding on it since I just bought a George Stock GG-1. Gerold or any one else might be interested.                                                                                             Jim H _ Jim, thanks, found it under HO NKP without problems - correctly, its a NPP model  (Nickel Plate Products) of an CSS&SB 700 Class  / ex NYC loco,  and I have two of them waiting  for correct paint. Both are still green right now, one lettered "Pacific Southern" - the other one Great Northern.... but I still look for the unmodified version , with the low cabs. The picture is deceiving, the model is made of sheet brass and was imported in 1973 Congratulations to the George Stock loco! Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7811	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/20/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Can't think of any I have 20 of, but I DO have seven of the Varney bay window cabeese. <G> Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine > Is nice, notice how everyone puts in rare, or hard to find in their > auctions, a person can have twenty of them on a shelf right in front of > them, but the auction seller always has a rare, har-to -find one, go > figure. > The Other Charlie >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Turbine >> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:41:57 +0200 >> >> >> seems she is on auction right now.... >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280278500077 >> >> reral span bolsters,and ladders next to the outer trucks - wonder what >> radius she would accept? The Soho and Balboa Turbines have a different >> (wrong) arrangement with the trucks next to the ladders mounted rigidly, >> and the others swiveling freely - and they still are demanding re >> curvature. >> >> Gerold >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > -- > See Exclusive Video: Hollywood Life's 5th Annual Style Awards > http://www.hollywoodlife.net/Awards.aspx?AwardsID=style2008 > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7812	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/21/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Don Seven must be a lucky number for collectors. I have seven of the GHC/AHC Die Cast C&NW/B&O 4-4-2's in various stages of repair -- from the near mint to the 'parts collection.' My wife thinks I have a mental condition that needs to be treated since I continute to buy models that I already have in my collection. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Can't think of any I have 20 of, but I DO have seven of the Varney bay > window cabeese. <G> > > Don >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7813	From: Charles Windes	Date: 10/21/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

Don You don't even want to hear what my wife says about my collecting, (she don't know I have 21Fw-190s in three scales at home and buying more) definately a sickness, hope they don't find a cure, and I find more money. The Other Charlie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Turbine > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:42:05 -0000 > > > Don > > Seven must be a lucky number for collectors. I have seven of the > GHC/AHC Die Cast C&NW/B&O 4-4-2's in various stages of repair -- from > the near mint to the 'parts collection.' My wife thinks I have a > mental condition that needs to be treated since I continute to buy > models that I already have in my collection. > > Matt > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: > > > > Can't think of any I have 20 of, but I DO have seven of the Varney > bay > > window cabeese. <G> > > > > Don > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > -- See Exclusive Video: Hollywood Life's 5th Annual Style Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/Awards.aspx?AwardsID=style2008

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7814	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/22/2008
Subject: Welcome Rick

Hi,         While I want to welcome all new members I especially want to welcome one of my best "train friends" of over 20 years, Mr. Rick Tonet. While I'm sure all new members will bring their area of expertise to the group I know Rick will too. He was/is one of the foremost authorities and collectors of AC Gilbert / American Flyer Ho . Not to bad on HObbyline too.                                                        Welcome all (and you to Rick)         Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7815	From: Rick Tonet	Date: 10/22/2008
Subject: Re: Welcome Rick

Thanks for the kind words Jim - glad to be on board. Will be happy to help anyone with questions about American Flyer HO. My collection is featured in the Official Price Guide of Gilbert HO by Gary Klein.   Regards,   Rick Tonet --- On Wed, 10/22/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Welcome Rick To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 1:31 PM Hi,         While I want to welcome all new members I especially want to welcome one of my best "train friends" of over 20 years, Mr. Rick Tonet. While I'm sure all new members will bring their area of expertise to the group I know Rick will too. He was/is one of the foremost authorities and collectors of AC Gilbert / American Flyer Ho . Not to bad on HObbyline too.                                                        Welcome all (and you to Rick)         Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7816	From: Rick Jones	Date: 10/22/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn Turbine

--- On Tue, 10/21/08, mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: > > Seven must be a lucky number for collectors. I have seven > of the > GHC/AHC Die Cast C&NW/B&O 4-4-2's in various > stages of repair -- from > the near mint to the 'parts collection.' -- And I have 7 of the Central Valley side door cabooses, 4 in yellow paint and 3 in red. Rick Jones

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7817	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine

Rick's comment brought back a question about these kits -- I know they were available in yellow and red (I have one of each, far short of Brother Rick's excellent number), but at one time did they offer them undecorated -- unpainted, with plain sides? I thought I remembered a kit review in RMC or MR from the early 50s that showed a built up one with no paint or lettering, but I couldn't find it in a quick search of the indexes for 50-53 in MR. Matt Coleman > > And I have 7 of the Central Valley side door cabooses, 4 in yellow paint and 3 in red. > > Rick Jones >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7818	From: Gerald Garteiser	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine

Attachments : I bought the undec version in the early ‘60’s; built it and painted it Pullman green.  As I recall, it was a “closeout” on the local hobby dealer’s shelf, so I do not know the original CV offering dates.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mmattjcoleman Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:45 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine   Rick's comment brought back a question about these kits -- I know they were available in yellow and red (I have one of each, far short of Brother Rick's excellent number), but at one time did they offer them undecorated -- unpainted, with plain sides? I thought I remembered a kit review in RMC or MR from the early 50s that showed a built up one with no paint or lettering, but I couldn't find it in a quick search of the indexes for 50-53 in MR. Matt Coleman > > And I have 7 of the Central Valley side door cabooses, 4 in yellow paint and 3 in red. > > Rick Jones >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7819	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine

Hi folks, I just picked up one of these gems in a Train Show, but it is missing the sides.  Since I would like to make this into an Undecorated version, it would be really nice if someone can scan the sides in and send to me.  That way, I can use the scans as a starting point to make my own sides. Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: jerryg@... Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:31:47 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine I bought the undec version in the early ‘60’s; built it and painted it Pullman green.  As I recall, it was a “closeout” on the local hobby dealer’s shelf, so I do not know the original CV offering dates.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of mmattjcoleman Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:45 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [vintageHO] CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine   Rick's comment brought back a question about these kits -- I know they were available in yellow and red (I have one of each, far short of Brother Rick's excellent number), but at one time did they offer them undecorated -- unpainted, with plain sides? I thought I remembered a kit review in RMC or MR from the early 50s that showed a built up one with no paint or lettering, but I couldn't find it in a quick search of the indexes for 50-53 in MR. Matt Coleman > > And I have 7 of the Central Valley side door cabooses, 4 in yellow paint and 3 in red. > > Rick Jones > See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home, work, or on the go. See Now

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7820	From: Glenn476	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine

pix didn't come thru   gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Garteiser To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 6:31 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine I bought the undec version in the early ‘60’s; built it and painted it Pullman green.  As I recall, it was a “closeout” on the local hobby dealer’s shelf, so I do not know the original CV offering dates.  JerryG   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mmattjcoleman Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:45 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine   Rick's comment brought back a question about these kits -- I know they were available in yellow and red (I have one of each, far short of Brother Rick's excellent number), but at one time did they offer them undecorated -- unpainted, with plain sides? I thought I remembered a kit review in RMC or MR from the early 50s that showed a built up one with no paint or lettering, but I couldn't find it in a quick search of the indexes for 50-53 in MR. Matt Coleman > > And I have 7 of the Central Valley side door cabooses, 4 in yellow paint and 3 in red. > > Rick Jones >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7821	From: Rick Jones	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine

--- On Thu, 10/23/08, mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: > Rick's comment brought back a question about these kits > -- I know they > were available in yellow and red (I have one of each, far > short of > Brother Rick's excellent number), but at one time did > they offer them > undecorated -- unpainted, with plain sides? > > I thought I remembered a kit review in RMC or MR from the > early 50s > that showed a built up one with no paint or lettering, but > I couldn't > find it in a quick search of the indexes for 50-53 in MR. I have no idea myself. I have only ever seen any of the CV kits with painted sides. But they are definitely my favorite craftsman kits, as they all came with those wonderful trucks. -- Rick Jones

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7822	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/23/2008
Subject: Re: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine

Attachments : Here's the Central Valley page from the 1970 Walthers' catalog. Check the note near the bottom of the right hand column regarding "special orders". Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:44 AM Subject: [vintageHO] CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine > Rick's comment brought back a question about these kits -- I know they > were available in yellow and red (I have one of each, far short of > Brother Rick's excellent number), but at one time did they offer them > undecorated -- unpainted, with plain sides? > > I thought I remembered a kit review in RMC or MR from the early 50s > that showed a built up one with no paint or lettering, but I couldn't > find it in a quick search of the indexes for 50-53 in MR. > > Matt Coleman >> >> And I have 7 of the Central Valley side door cabooses, 4 in yellow > paint and 3 in red. >> >> Rick Jones >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7823	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

This may end up being a double post, (Yahoo is acting strange this morning) but yesterday I purchased what appears to be a near-mint unbuilt brass kit of a MOPAC 4-8-2 but the box has no identification markings at all. The photos are shown below. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1520027744/pic/list The apparent kit maker's name and address is on the lower right of the blueprints, and some motor notes (expanded in one photo) are shown. If anyone could help with the era of the kit (early 50s, late 50s, early 60s) and the possible importer I would be most grateful. Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7824	From: Larry	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Check these links it may help? http://www.hoseeker.org/americanhobbys/americanhobbyscatalog1966pg10. jpg http://www.hoseeker.org/americanhobbys/americanhobbyscatalog1966pg11. jpg http://www.hoseeker.org/misccatalogs.html http://www.hoseeker.org/tenshodo.html http://www.hoseeker.org/westsideinformation.html http://www.hoseeker.org/pacificfastmailinformation.html There is more brass information and catalogs here such as Balboa, International Model, NJ International. Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/lit.html --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: > > This may end up being a double post, (Yahoo is acting strange this > morning) but yesterday I purchased what appears to be a near-mint > unbuilt brass kit of a MOPAC 4-8-2 but the box has no identification > markings at all. > > The photos are shown below. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1520027744/pic/l ist > > The apparent kit maker's name and address is on the lower right of the > blueprints, and some motor notes (expanded in one photo) are shown. > > If anyone could help with the era of the kit (early 50s, late 50s, > early 60s) and the possible importer I would be most grateful. > > Matt Coleman >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7825	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Matt, does the tender shown in the instruction sheet look like the tender in the box? These early Tetsudo models usually had a USRA style tender with the kits. The tender in the box appears to be a NYC 4-6-4 J Class tender. International Model Products is the likely importer. They sold the same model, listed only as "4-8-2 Mountain" in their 1955 and 1956 catalogs. Brian L.   In a message dated 10/26/2008 8:35:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mattjcoleman@... writes: This may end up being a double post, (Yahoo is acting strange this morning) but yesterday I purchased what appears to be a near-mint unbuilt brass kit of a MOPAC 4-8-2 but the box has no identification markings at all. The photos are shown below. http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/album/ 1520027744/ pic/list The apparent kit maker's name and address is on the lower right of the blueprints, and some motor notes (expanded in one photo) are shown. If anyone could help with the era of the kit (early 50s, late 50s, early 60s) and the possible importer I would be most grateful. Matt Coleman Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7826	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Brian, There is no blueprint for the tender in the kit and yes, the tender does have a certain "J-3ness" to it. Forgot to put in the builders information located on the blueprint: PIONEER MOKEISHA 69, 5-Chome Choja-machi Naka-Ku YoKohama Japan And it has a lot of the early-mid 50's characteristics including the style of soldering. Thanks for the information! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Matt, does the tender shown in the instruction sheet look like the tender in > the box? These early Tetsudo models usually had a USRA style tender with the > kits. The tender in the box appears to be a NYC 4-6-4 J Class tender. > International Model Products is the likely importer. They sold the same model, > listed only as "4-8-2 Mountain" in their 1955 and 1956 catalogs. Brian L. > > > In a message dated 10/26/2008 8:35:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > mattjcoleman@... writes: > > > > > This may end up being a double post, (Yahoo is acting strange this > morning) but yesterday I purchased what appears to be a near-mint > unbuilt brass kit of a MOPAC 4-8-2 but the box has no identification > markings at all. > > The photos are shown below. > _http://groups.http://grohttp://groups.<Whttp://groupshttp://grouhttp://g_ > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1520027744/pic/list) > > The apparent kit maker's name and address is on the lower right of the > blueprints, and some motor notes (expanded in one photo) are shown. > > If anyone could help with the era of the kit (early 50s, late 50s, > early 60s) and the possible importer I would be most grateful. > > Matt Coleman > > > > > **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, > no registration required and great graphics â€" check it out! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir= > http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7827	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Hi Matt, Tetsudo was most likely the outlet for the model (in Japan), even though Pioneer may have been the actual maker of the model. Tetsudo sold models made by several subcontractors at the time. International bought most of their models through Tetsudo until they had problems with exclusivity and struck up a deal with Akane using the name International Takara. I have a few of these 4-8-2 Mountain models, but all have a USRA style tender with them. They came in a plain box which didn't indicate the importer. It may not be possible to tell exactly who imported it because several early importers bought models through Tetsudo and labeled the box to their liking. Pacific Pike and Suzuki & Edwards were among them. Brian L   In a message dated 10/26/2008 1:54:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mattjcoleman@... writes: Brian, There is no blueprint for the tender in the kit and yes, the tender does have a certain "J-3ness" to it. Forgot to put in the builders information located on the blueprint: PIONEER MOKEISHA 69, 5-Chome Choja-machi Naka-Ku YoKohama Japan And it has a lot of the early-mid 50's characteristics including the style of soldering. Thanks for the information! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Matt, does the tender shown in the instruction sheet look like the tender in > the box? These early Tetsudo models usually had a USRA style tender with the > kits. The tender in the box appears to be a NYC 4-6-4 J Class tender. > International Model Products is the likely importer. They sold the same model, > listed only as "4-8-2 Mountain" in their 1955 and 1956 catalogs. Brian L. > > > In a message dated 10/26/2008 8:35:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > mattjcoleman@ ... writes: > > > > > This may end up being a double post, (Yahoo is acting strange this > morning) but yesterday I purchased what appears to be a near-mint > unbuilt brass kit of a MOPAC 4-8-2 but the box has no identification > markings at all. > > The photos are shown below. > _http://groups. http://grohttp: //groups.<Whttp://groupshttp: //grouhttp: //g_ > (http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/album/ 1520027744/ pic/list) > > The apparent kit maker's name and address is on the lower right of the > blueprints, and some motor notes (expanded in one photo) are shown. > > If anyone could help with the era of the kit (early 50s, late 50s, > early 60s) and the possible importer I would be most grateful. > > Matt Coleman > > > > > ************ **Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, > no registration required and great graphics â€" check it out! > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100000075x121120 2682x1200689022/ aol?redir= > http://www.games. com?ncid= emlcntusgame0000 0001) > Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7828	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Larry, Thank you! Between your post and Brian's I was able to find it. It was imported by International Models in their 1956 catalog. http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg07.jpg It is not called a MOPAC 4-8-2 in the catalog but is dead on in terms of appearance, including the tender. Thanks to you both! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <seekingho@...> wrote: > > Check these links it may help? > http://www.hoseeker.org/americanhobbys/americanhobbyscatalog1966pg10. > jpg > http://www.hoseeker.org/americanhobbys/americanhobbyscatalog1966pg11. > jpg > http://www.hoseeker.org/misccatalogs.html > http://www.hoseeker.org/tenshodo.html > http://www.hoseeker.org/westsideinformation.html > http://www.hoseeker.org/pacificfastmailinformation.html > > There is more brass information and catalogs here such as Balboa, > International Model, NJ International. > > Larry > http://www.hoseeker.org/lit.html >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7829	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: CV Sidedoor Cabooses - was: Re: Athearn Turbine

Don, Thanks! While I didn't get the attachment (I am on the group distro) I gathered from your comments (and those of Jerry's) that at one time it was available -- perhaps by special order -- with undecorated sides. I appreciate the info from all who responded. Like Rick, I have only seen the kits in yellow and red, but I thought I had seen the review of an undecorated version. But, as I age what I think I remember, what I really remember, and the truth are often quite divergent. Thanks again! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Here's the Central Valley page from the 1970 Walthers' catalog. > > Check the note near the bottom of the right hand column regarding "special > orders". > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7830	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 10/26/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Matt, I can't help you with the manufacturer or date of the kit, but I must say that you have an excellent find. This kit appears to be of the 5335 - 5344 class of MoPac Mountains which were the heaviest 4-8-2's that the MoPac had. To my knowledge no other model of this particular locomotive has ever been available in HO guage. The only other one I have seen pictures of was scratch built by Joe Collias. So you know where I am coming from: I am also a MoPac modeler and a MoPac history buff. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: > > This may end up being a double post, (Yahoo is acting strange this > morning) but yesterday I purchased what appears to be a near-mint > unbuilt brass kit of a MOPAC 4-8-2 but the box has no identification > markings at all. > > The photos are shown below. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1520027744/pic/li st > > The apparent kit maker's name and address is on the lower right of the > blueprints, and some motor notes (expanded in one photo) are shown. > > If anyone could help with the era of the kit (early 50s, late 50s, > early 60s) and the possible importer I would be most grateful. > > Matt Coleman >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7831	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/27/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Brian, Thanks again for the additional information. I never understood much of Tetsudo's role in early Japanese brass but have seen many references to them. It is a bit of history that is fading with time and I am glad you shared it. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Hi Matt, Tetsudo was most likely the outlet for the model (in Japan), even > though Pioneer may have been the actual maker of the model. Tetsudo sold models > made by several subcontractors at the time. International bought most of > their models through Tetsudo until they had problems with exclusivity and struck > up a deal with Akane using the name International Takara. I have a few of > these 4-8-2 Mountain models, but all have a USRA style tender with them. They > came in a plain box which didn't indicate the importer. It may not be possible > to tell exactly who imported it because several early importers bought > models through Tetsudo and labeled the box to their liking. Pacific Pike and > Suzuki & Edwards were among them. Brian L >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7832	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/27/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Your welcome Matt, There are few reference sources for information relating to the early brass importers in existence. I have a small library that I have gathered over the years and while I have a lot of information, it still requires a lot cross referencing and piecing the information together from several places. Regards, Brian     In a message dated 10/27/2008 6:59:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mattjcoleman@... writes: Brian, Thanks again for the additional information. I never understood much of Tetsudo's role in early Japanese brass but have seen many references to them. It is a bit of history that is fading with time and I am glad you shared it. Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Hi Matt, Tetsudo was most likely the outlet for the model (in Japan), even > though Pioneer may have been the actual maker of the model. Tetsudo sold models > made by several subcontractors at the time. International bought most of > their models through Tetsudo until they had problems with exclusivity and struck > up a deal with Akane using the name International Takara. I have a few of > these 4-8-2 Mountain models, but all have a USRA style tender with them. They > came in a plain box which didn't indicate the importer. It may not be possible > to tell exactly who imported it because several early importers bought > models through Tetsudo and labeled the box to their liking. Pacific Pike and > Suzuki & Edwards were among them. Brian L > Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7833	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/28/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Hmmmm ... a lifetime of gathering the history of a fascinating, but obscure portion of the hobby. Lots of material, but cross-referencing required. Sounds like you have the potential of a great book there brother Brian! I would buy one in a heartbeat! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Your welcome Matt, There are few reference sources for information relating > to the early brass importers in existence. I have a small library that I have > gathered over the years and while I have a lot of information, it still > requires a lot cross referencing and piecing the information together from > several places. Regards, Brian > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7834	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/28/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

LOL, well Matt, if I get the pre-orders up to around 2,000 maybe I'll start writing! LOL   Regards, Brian   In a message dated 10/28/2008 11:18:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mattjcoleman@... writes: Hmmmm ... a lifetime of gathering the history of a fascinating, but obscure portion of the hobby. Lots of material, but cross-referencing required. Sounds like you have the potential of a great book there brother Brian! I would buy one in a heartbeat! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, bslook@... wrote: > > Your welcome Matt, There are few reference sources for information relating > to the early brass importers in existence. I have a small library that I have > gathered over the years and while I have a lot of information, it still > requires a lot cross referencing and piecing the information together from > several places. Regards, Brian > > Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7835	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Re: Help needed to identify era for Japanses brass kit

Perhaps you could start with just a short post to the files to give us the basics and warm up those typing fingers! Seriously though, it is nice to know that someone on the group has that interest. I certainly appreciate your knowledge! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@... wrote: > > LOL, well Matt, if I get the pre-orders up to around 2,000 maybe I'll start > writing! LOL > > Regards, Brian > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7836	From: ron plyler	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Question of site.

This is my second request. Many times on this site, it seems I get an answer to a question but I did get the question. This also applies to pictures posted on the site. I get a reference to look at a picture but I don't get the picture. Am I doing something wrong. Ron Plyler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7837	From: Gerry D	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Re: Question of site.

you may have pictures turned off in your yahoo email account. Sometimes pictures go into the bit bucket because they are in-line rather than attachments. Also sometimes the attachments don't make it through the group interface. It's one of those yahoo mysteries! --- On Wed, 10/29/08, ron plyler <ron_tallyho@...> wrote: From: ron plyler <ron_tallyho@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Question of site. To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 1:26 PM This is my second request. Many times on this site, it seems I get an answer to a question but I did get the question. This also applies to pictures posted on the site. I get a reference to look at a picture but I don't get the picture. Am I doing something wrong. Ron Plyler ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7838	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Re: Question of site.

In order for you to view any photos included as an attachment you MUST have “Individual Emails” selected in Step 2 of your profile. Any other setting would necessitate the images being saved on the Yahoo server, which Yahoo does not do because of space considerations.   When you use the “Individual Emails” setting the images are forwarded directly on to you in the individual email. There you can view them and determine if you do or do not want to save them on your harddrive. Either way, Yahoo does not have to store them on its server.   John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Gerry D Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 14:14 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question of site.   you may have pictures turned off in your yahoo email account. Sometimes pictures go into the bit bucket because they are in-line rather than attachments. Also sometimes the attachments don't make it through the group interface. It's one of those yahoo mysteries! --- On Wed, 10/29/08, ron plyler <ron_tallyho@ yahoo.com> wrote: From: ron plyler <ron_tallyho@ yahoo.com> Subject: [vintageHO] Question of site. To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 1:26 PM This is my second request.  Many times on this site, it seems I get an answer to a question but I did get the question.  This also applies to pictures posted on the site.  I get a reference to look at a picture but I don't get the picture.  Am I doing something wrong.  Ron Plyler       ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO- digest@yahoogrou ps.com     mailto:vintageHO- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7839	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Re: Question of site.

If you are not getting "daily emails" you will not see any attachments. Yahoo does not save them to the website, nor include them in the "daily digest". Even if you ARE getting daily emails, some ISP's will strip the attachments anyway, or may have a size limit. As far as not seeing posts YOU make to the list, often your spam filter will not let it through because that's an old spammer's trick. The filter assumes if you really were the sender, you don't need to see it, and if you were NOT the sender, it's spam. I know with AT&T-Yahoo (my ISP) I often find my posts to various groups in my "bulk" folder. As far as how to fix it, I really can't answer that, other than to suggest contacting your own ISP with your concerns. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "ron plyler" <ron_tallyho@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Question of site. > This is my second request. Many times on this site, it seems I get an > answer to a question but I did get the question. This also applies to > pictures posted on the site. I get a reference to look at a picture but I > don't get the picture. Am I doing something wrong. Ron Plyler > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7840	From: rcjge	Date: 10/29/2008
Subject: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help

Hey Guys: Can someone help me ID the Vintage piece of Brass who's photo I've added to the Photo's folder under "Identification"? Thanks for any help.... -Gareth

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7841	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help

rcjge wrote: > Hey Guys: > > Can someone help me ID the Vintage piece of Brass who's photo I've > added to the Photo's folder under "Identification"? > > Thanks for any help.... > > -Gareth > Hi Gareth, the body matches the Ken Kidder steeplecab I have here, but it seems the truck sideframes were changed to Standard C-80 . If she still has the original drive, there should be an vertical shaft motor driving the inner axle of one truck, with a spring belt transmitting the power to the second axle. The other truck is unpowered. Needless to say, traction is limited. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7842	From: Larry	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help

Hello Gareth looks similar. http://www.hoseeker.org/suydam/suydamadvertisementjan1960pg2.jpg http://www.hoseeker.org/interurban.html Sure wish I had help to cross reference the information on HOseeker. It takes most of my time just to add new material. Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/lit.html --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > rcjge wrote: > > Hey Guys: > > > > Can someone help me ID the Vintage piece of Brass who's photo I've > > added to the Photo's folder under "Identification"? > > > > Thanks for any help.... > > > > -Gareth > > > Hi Gareth, > the body matches the Ken Kidder steeplecab I have here, but it seems the > truck sideframes were changed to Standard C-80 . If she still has the > original drive, there should be an vertical shaft motor driving the > inner axle of one truck, with a spring belt transmitting the power to > the second axle. The other truck is unpowered. Needless to say, traction > is limited. > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7843	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help

Good morning everyone, the brass steeple cab model was made by Kumata (KMT), however, I don't remember the importer. I will scan a photo taken by the manufacturer and send it later today for comparison.   Brian L.     In a message dated 10/30/2008 8:40:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, seekingho@... writes: Hello Gareth looks similar. http://www.hoseeker .org/suydam/ suydamadvertisem entjan1960pg2. jpg http://www.hoseeker .org/interurban. html Sure wish I had help to cross reference the information on HOseeker. It takes most of my time just to add new material. Larry http://www.hoseeker .org/lit. html --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > rcjge wrote: > > Hey Guys: > > > > Can someone help me ID the Vintage piece of Brass who's photo I've > > added to the Photo's folder under "Identification" ? > > > > Thanks for any help.... > > > > -Gareth > > > Hi Gareth, > the body matches the Ken Kidder steeplecab I have here, but it seems the > truck sideframes were changed to Standard C-80 . If she still has the > original drive, there should be an vertical shaft motor driving the > inner axle of one truck, with a spring belt transmitting the power to > the second axle. The other truck is unpowered. Needless to say, traction > is limited. > Gerold > Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7844	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Vintage Brass

The study of early brass is a fascinating area. There's plenty of information out there, if you start with the Brown Books, Dan Glasure's Price Guide, and the two volume The Art Of Brass. Early catalogs (some of which are on HO seeker's site)are also helpful. And because most, not all but most, of the early models were made in Japan, and a lot were imported by very small outfits, there are some gaps in our information. Tetsudo alone is another fascinating study. Terry Nesbit does a clinic, that has been done at some regionals and I think a National or two, about Tetsudo. I've heard it three times and it's different each time as more information becomes available. Terry starts by saying that he set out to acquire one each of the known c40 Tetsudo models, and he's up to about 77 of those. If you get a chance,catch the clinic. Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7845	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass

Sorry to be so thick, but what does "c40 Tetsudo models" mean? How many Tetsudo models? Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...> wrote: > > The study of early brass is a fascinating area. There's plenty of > information out there, if you start with the Brown Books, Dan > Glasure's Price Guide, and the two volume The Art Of Brass. Early > catalogs (some of which are on HO seeker's site)are also helpful. And > because most, not all but most, of the early models were made in > Japan, and a lot were imported by very small outfits, there are some > gaps in our information. > > Tetsudo alone is another fascinating study. Terry Nesbit does a > clinic, that has been done at some regionals and I think a National or > two, about Tetsudo. I've heard it three times and it's different each > time as more information becomes available. Terry starts by saying > that he set out to acquire one each of the known c40 Tetsudo models, > and he's up to about 77 of those. If you get a chance,catch the > clinic. > > Frank Bongiovanni >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7846	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass

Hi everyone, another good source of information on early brass, as well as vintage models here in the USA, is the Lenahan's series of books. I have 4 or 5 different publishing's of Lenahan's and they all focus on different aspects of motive power. Greta for identifying many early models and their drive systems, etc.   Brian L.    In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:23:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bayerw@... writes: Sorry to be so thick, but what does "c40 Tetsudo models" mean? How many Tetsudo models? Walter --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@ ...> wrote: > > The study of early brass is a fascinating area. There's plenty of > information out there, if you start with the Brown Books, Dan > Glasure's Price Guide, and the two volume The Art Of Brass. Early > catalogs (some of which are on HO seeker's site)are also helpful. And > because most, not all but most, of the early models were made in > Japan, and a lot were imported by very small outfits, there are some > gaps in our information. > > Tetsudo alone is another fascinating study. Terry Nesbit does a > clinic, that has been done at some regionals and I think a National or > two, about Tetsudo. I've heard it three times and it's different each > time as more information becomes available. Terry starts by saying > that he set out to acquire one each of the known c40 Tetsudo models, > and he's up to about 77 of those. If you get a chance,catch the > clinic. > > Frank Bongiovanni > Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7847	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass

bslook@... wrote: > Hi everyone, another good source of information on early brass, as > well as vintage models here in the USA, is the Lenahan's series of > books. I have 4 or 5 different publishing's of Lenahan's and they all > focus on different aspects of motive power. Greta for identifying > many early models and their drive systems, etc. > > Brian L. > Hi Brian, please tell us more about this series ... until today I thought there are only two volumes ?? BTW, if you ever will do the book you mentioned , I surely will order a copy. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7848	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help

Attachments : Larry wrote: > Hello Gareth > > looks similar. > http://www.hoseeker.org/suydam/suydamadvertisementjan1960pg2.jpg > http://www.hoseeker.org/interurban.html > > Sure wish I had help to cross reference the information on HOseeker. > It takes most of my time just to add new material. > > Larry > http://www.hoseeker.org/lit.html > Larry, Gareth, The Suydam steeplecab was a rather sophisticated model for its time, following PE prototype closely. It had a spring belt drive from the horizontal motor shaft to one of the truck worm shafts, this truck them transmitted power to the second one by means of a rubber tube. The Ken Kidder model was a generic type , and inferior to Suydam's in every respect. There were several other , larger B/W steeplecabs ( CSS&SB ) sold by Ken Kidder and others, most of them with the vertical shaft motor. I have attached a picture of a Suydam ( top) and Ken Kidder (bottom) loco from my collection Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7849	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass

The Lenahan's books that I have, have four different covers (each being a different publication -1975, 1976, 1977, etc.) and are each different in what he focused on regarding models. The oldest volume I have is the second edition (revised first edition actually, 1975), it focuses mostly on early brass but also lists every known maker of each model listed in all materials (plastic, die cast, etc.).   Another edition, I believe from 1976, ( I am not looking at them at this time), focuses on early American brass and die cast models, showing each drive train with the motor set up, etc. It also includes early die cast kit locomotives, Knapp, Bowser, Varney, Hobbytown, Diesel, Steam, etc.  Very good for identifying vintage US made models. Another edition is an updated list of brass steam locomotives, showing some very early one of a kind brass models and some of the later releases of brass that were not available, or didn't make it into the print schedule, at the time of the first edition printing.   The last one I have focuses on Diesel locomotives, showing all makes of brass, plastic and die cast models available up until roughly 1976. The revised first edition that I have lists all the known model makers, importers and their relationship with each other. I am not at home at this time, but I will scan the covers of each edition that I have and anyone that needs any information from them, can let me know and I can scan that book and email a copy. I also have several of the original brass catalogs from International, Aristo-craft, PFM, Sunset, Akane, Gem, Westside, Balboa and others that I can scan and email. I can't remember the name now, but I also have two volumes of a brass collector's guide that are roughly 500 pagers each (each about 4 inches thick) of imported brass models in HO scale. I also have both volumes of the Art of brass and all the brown books, as well as Dan Glasure's new book. Sorry for the long winded post, I wanted to include enough information, so that anyone interested can email me outside the group and I can email the scans of the pages or catalogs. These consist of thousands of pages, so make your requests with that in mind, I don't want to work myself to death scanning everything. Thanks, Brian   In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:38:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corv8@... writes: bslook@... wrote: > Hi everyone, another good source of information on early brass, as > well as vintage models here in the USA, is the Lenahan's series of > books. I have 4 or 5 different publishing's of Lenahan's and they all > focus on different aspects of motive power. Greta for identifying > many early models and their drive systems, etc. > > Brian L. > Hi Brian, please tell us more about this series ... until today I thought there are only two volumes ?? BTW, if you ever will do the book you mentioned , I surely will order a copy. Gerold Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7850	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass

bslook@... wrote: > The Lenahan's books that I have, have four different covers (each > being a different publication -1975, 1976, 1977, etc.) and are each > different in what he focused on regarding models. The oldest volume I > have is the second edition (revised first edition actually, 1975), it > focuses mostly on early brass but also lists every known maker of each > model listed in all materials (plastic, die cast, etc.). > > Another edition, I believe from 1976, ( I am not looking at them at > this time), focuses on early American brass and die cast models, > showing each drive train with the motor set up, etc. It also includes > early die cast kit locomotives, Knapp, Bowser, Varney, Hobbytown, > Diesel, Steam, etc. Very good for identifying vintage US made models. > Another edition is an updated list of brass steam locomotives, showing > some very early one of a kind brass models and some of the later > releases of brass that were not available, or didn't make it into the > print schedule, at the time of the first edition printing. > > The last one I have focuses on Diesel locomotives, showing all makes > of brass, plastic and die cast models available up until roughly 1976. > The revised first edition that I have lists all the known model > makers, importers and their relationship with each other. I am not at > home at this time, but I will scan the covers of each edition that I > have and anyone that needs any information from them, can let me know > and I can scan that book and email a copy. I also have several of the > original brass catalogs from International, Aristo-craft, PFM, Sunset, > Akane, Gem, Westside, Balboa and others that I can scan and email. I > can't remember the name now, but I also have two volumes of a brass > collector's guide that are roughly 500 pagers each (each about 4 > inches thick) of imported brass models in HO scale. I also have both > volumes of the Art of brass and all the brown books, as well as Dan > Glasure's new book. Sorry for the long winded post, I wanted to > include enough information, so that anyone interested can email me > outside the group and I can email the scans of the pages or catalogs. > These consist of thousands of pages, so make your requests with that > in mind, I don't want to work myself to death scanning everything. > Thanks, Brian Brian, I look forward for your scans of the Lenahan covers... the two books I have are "complete Revised Third Edition, Vol I and Vol II. It might be this have combined info from previous Volumes; Vol I has info one all types of locos, imported and domestic, brass, cast and plastic, Steam , diesel and electric - organized by road name. Vol II has chapters on early US Brass, Logging and diesel locos. I have scanned most of my brass catalogs and have sent the files to Larry http://www.hoseeker.org so they can be viewed and downloaded there ... Would be great if you ( and others ) could close some of the remaining ( many! ) gaps. BTW, have all five Balboa catalogs by now, so this series will be complete soon. Would be most interested in the brass collectors guides you mentioned, but I understand at 1000 pages its impossible to ever scan them... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7851	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass

Attachments :     Hi Gerold, here are three of the covers for the Lenahan's catalogs. I was off by a few years on the later publications. They are #1003 & 1004 are both dated 1985, while #1002 is dated 1976. I am still looking around here for the other one, I will scan that one when I locate it. The brass collector's guides may not be as difficult as you think. One thing about them is that there are some duplicated pages, so the page count may be much less than originally thought. They are also in a two ring binder that allows each page to be removed. That will make it easier since I can run them through the document feeder 20 to 30 pages at a time. I will work on that over the weekend. Regards, Brian       In a message dated 10/30/2008 5:35:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corv8@... writes: bslook@... wrote: > The Lenahan's books that I have, have four different covers (each > being a different publication -1975, 1976, 1977, etc.) and are each > different in what he focused on regarding models. The oldest volume I > have is the second edition (revised first edition actually, 1975), it > focuses mostly on early brass but also lists every known maker of each > model listed in all materials (plastic, die cast, etc.). > > Another edition, I believe from 1976, ( I am not looking at them at > this time), focuses on early American brass and die cast models, > showing each drive train with the motor set up, etc. It also includes > early die cast kit locomotives, Knapp, Bowser, Varney, Hobbytown, > Diesel, Steam, etc. Very good for identifying vintage US made models. > Another edition is an updated list of brass steam locomotives, showing > some very early one of a kind brass models and some of the later > releases of brass that were not available, or didn't make it into the > print schedule, at the time of the first edition printing. > > The last one I have focuses on Diesel locomotives, showing all makes > of brass, plastic and die cast models available up until roughly 1976. > The revised first edition that I have lists all the known model > makers, importers and their relationship with each other. I am not at > home at this time, but I will scan the covers of each edition that I > have and anyone that needs any information from them, can let me know > and I can scan that book and email a copy. I also have several of the > original brass catalogs from International, Aristo-craft, PFM, Sunset, > Akane, Gem, Westside, Balboa and others that I can scan and email. I > can't remember the name now, but I also have two volumes of a brass > collector's guide that are roughly 500 pagers each (each about 4 > inches thick) of imported brass models in HO scale. I also have both > volumes of the Art of brass and all the brown books, as well as Dan > Glasure's new book. Sorry for the long winded post, I wanted to > include enough information, so that anyone interested can email me > outside the group and I can email the scans of the pages or catalogs. > These consist of thousands of pages, so make your requests with that > in mind, I don't want to work myself to death scanning everything. > Thanks, Brian Brian, I look forward for your scans of the Lenahan covers... the two books I have are "complete Revised Third Edition, Vol I and Vol II. It might be this have combined info from previous Volumes; Vol I has info one all types of locos, imported and domestic, brass, cast and plastic, Steam , diesel and electric - organized by road name. Vol II has chapters on early US Brass, Logging and diesel locos. I have scanned most of my brass catalogs and have sent the files to Larry http://www.hoseeker .org so they can be viewed and downloaded there ... Would be great if you ( and others ) could close some of the remaining ( many! ) gaps. BTW, have all five Balboa catalogs by now, so this series will be complete soon. Would be most interested in the brass collectors guides you mentioned, but I understand at 1000 pages its impossible to ever scan them... Gerold Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7852	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help

Attachments :   Hi everyone, attached is a scan of the Kumata model of the steeple cab. It appears to be the engine in question, however the trucks are certainly not the same. Maybe this swill help to identify it. Regards, Brian         In a message dated 10/30/2008 8:40:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, seekingho@... writes: Hello Gareth looks similar. http://www.hoseeker .org/suydam/ suydamadvertisem entjan1960pg2. jpg http://www.hoseeker .org/interurban. html Sure wish I had help to cross reference the information on HOseeker. It takes most of my time just to add new material. Larry http://www.hoseeker .org/lit. html --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > rcjge wrote: > > Hey Guys: > > > > Can someone help me ID the Vintage piece of Brass who's photo I've > > added to the Photo's folder under "Identification" ? > > > > Thanks for any help.... > > > > -Gareth > > > Hi Gareth, > the body matches the Ken Kidder steeplecab I have here, but it seems the > truck sideframes were changed to Standard C-80 . If she still has the > original drive, there should be an vertical shaft motor driving the > inner axle of one truck, with a spring belt transmitting the power to > the second axle. The other truck is unpowered. Needless to say, traction > is limited. > Gerold > Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7853	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 10/30/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass

Attachments : Hi again Gerold and everyone, attached are  a couple of pages of the Brass collector's guide. As you will see, this does not offer much in the way of information other than photographs and a small information box in the corner of each page. It covers all importer's and makers. I noticed that the page size is larger than         8-1/2"x 11", so I will need to scan it on the large scanner in my office. Regards, Brian   In a message dated 10/30/2008 5:35:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corv8@... writes: bslook@... wrote: > The Lenahan's books that I have, have four different covers (each > being a different publication -1975, 1976, 1977, etc.) and are each > different in what he focused on regarding models. The oldest volume I > have is the second edition (revised first edition actually, 1975), it > focuses mostly on early brass but also lists every known maker of each > model listed in all materials (plastic, die cast, etc.). > > Another edition, I believe from 1976, ( I am not looking at them at > this time), focuses on early American brass and die cast models, > showing each drive train with the motor set up, etc. It also includes > early die cast kit locomotives, Knapp, Bowser, Varney, Hobbytown, > Diesel, Steam, etc. Very good for identifying vintage US made models. > Another edition is an updated list of brass steam locomotives, showing > some very early one of a kind brass models and some of the later > releases of brass that were not available, or didn't make it into the > print schedule, at the time of the first edition printing. > > The last one I have focuses on Diesel locomotives, showing all makes > of brass, plastic and die cast models available up until roughly 1976. > The revised first edition that I have lists all the known model > makers, importers and their relationship with each other. I am not at > home at this time, but I will scan the covers of each edition that I > have and anyone that needs any information from them, can let me know > and I can scan that book and email a copy. I also have several of the > original brass catalogs from International, Aristo-craft, PFM, Sunset, > Akane, Gem, Westside, Balboa and others that I can scan and email. I > can't remember the name now, but I also have two volumes of a brass > collector's guide that are roughly 500 pagers each (each about 4 > inches thick) of imported brass models in HO scale. I also have both > volumes of the Art of brass and all the brown books, as well as Dan > Glasure's new book. Sorry for the long winded post, I wanted to > include enough information, so that anyone interested can email me > outside the group and I can email the scans of the pages or catalogs. > These consist of thousands of pages, so make your requests with that > in mind, I don't want to work myself to death scanning everything. > Thanks, Brian Brian, I look forward for your scans of the Lenahan covers... the two books I have are "complete Revised Third Edition, Vol I and Vol II. It might be this have combined info from previous Volumes; Vol I has info one all types of locos, imported and domestic, brass, cast and plastic, Steam , diesel and electric - organized by road name. Vol II has chapters on early US Brass, Logging and diesel locos. I have scanned most of my brass catalogs and have sent the files to Larry http://www.hoseeker .org so they can be viewed and downloaded there ... Would be great if you ( and others ) could close some of the remaining ( many! ) gaps. BTW, have all five Balboa catalogs by now, so this series will be complete soon. Would be most interested in the brass collectors guides you mentioned, but I understand at 1000 pages its impossible to ever scan them... Gerold Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7854	From: rny11	Date: 10/31/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass Baldwin Steeplecab ID help

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote: > > Hey Guys: > > Can someone help me ID the Vintage piece of Brass who's photo I've > added to the Photo's folder under "Identification"? > > Thanks for any help.... > > -Gareth > Hello,we currently have one of the Suydam models on our website "brasstrainsandmore.ecrater.com" under the HO Brass Trolleys section. There are 5 pictures. Check the pictures to enlarge. Hope that helps. Regards,Dave

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7855	From: bongiovanni12001	Date: 10/31/2008
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass

Sorry Walter, and anybody else I inadvertantly confused in a misguided effort to be brief. c is an abbreviation for "approximately". I think Terry said that when he started there were records of approximately 40 different Tetsudo models, and as they keep turning up he's up to something like 77 of them. My point was that we keep learning more. I thought I knew this area(early brass)fairly well, and then I made a statement on one of the brass lists a few years ago that no one had done an Ingalls diesel; apparently in the 3rd volume of Lenehan (I was only aware of the first two)there is a picture of a very limited number of Ingalls diesels done for some Ingalls execs when the prototype was done. We live and we learn. Frank Bongiovanni -- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote: > > Sorry to be so thick, but what does "c40 Tetsudo models" mean? How > many Tetsudo models? > Walter > ---

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7856	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 10/31/2008
Subject: need information

To All,           I just received a George Stock GG-1 that I won on Ebay. Over the years I have learned some information, heard some information and had read other bits and pieces concerning George Stock. Even though he made many fine engines, most custom made and painted, I'm only looking for information about the GG-1 at this time. Please let me know if what I write you know as different or can add to this information.        A little back ground about Mr. Stock first. He had a small model shop in Philadelphia that was part of a larger machine shop he ran. Although he had some kind of a back infirmity that limited his movement but not his energy. He was a master machinist who took to modeling HO. He started around 1936 when he made his first GG-1's (and others). My information says he made around a 100 GG-1's from 1936 to after 1950. There were some differences in the GG-1engines he made. A lot of parts were made in England but he made most in his shop. I don't know where bodies casted.          I originally thought all his GG-1's were cast brass bodies with cast metal (zamac or similar casting material) undercarrige (frames, side frames. etc.). He hand turned the drivers out of brass and he made the brass gears. There has been a number of people who claim he had some cast aluminum bodies too. Yet one story said he denied ever making GG-1's with aluminum bodies. The original first bodies were actually two pieces (much like Varney metal F-3's) and you had to attach with pins that roof piece to the main body. Later, but unknown when, he went to one piece bodies. He had two motors powering his GG-1. After the war, 1945, he started to use Pitman DC-60 motors (which were only made after the war) which is another way to tell differences in productions. Does anyone know where he got motors before the war ??. A real oddity at the start is he handmade pantographs that were non working. They were made out of a small piece of U channel and had wire formed to the shape of a pantograph if you were looking from the side. There were two sides for each that were not connected. One pantograph was made in the open position, one in the closed. After ward and again time unknown he started using working pantographs. I am assuming they might have come from Japan but don't know that for a fact. Anyone answer that ????          The Stock GG-1 was full size to scale as were Schrader and Famoco. Later Penn Line and Varney had a shorter then scale type. I have some assembly / drawings and a little written material about the early Stock GG-1's. One is a blue print showing you were to drill needed holes in the body. Yetthe first production states "all holes pre drilled", Again any one know when this changed.           Finally George Stock became very efficient at painting his engines. He also became expert at hand lettering,hand numbering to match the Pennsylvania style in gold. it was said he was better then later decals. But again not all GG-1's were painted as some were kits. Does anyone know more about that ????          Well my one typing finger sore so I'll end this for now. Again if you can verify, add to or correct any mistakes PLEASE let me know. If you have any paper work or drawings that will back up changes to this narrative PLEASE let me know as information is hard to come by. THANKS                                                                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7857	From: man.ukin	Date: 10/31/2008
Subject: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars etc

hi, i am jens kinne, german, living in the usa i am deleting my complete collection of ho items, i have a big collection but no time anymore i have lamps, trees, boxcars, figures, locos, ho street cars, tanks etc. the most things are mint in box thanks jens

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7858	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: need information

I must make a  correction to the text I wrote below. After cleaning off all the crappy paint from the Stock GG-1 body I found two interesting things I didn't see before. One is a serial number  1228 stamped on the bottom edge of the body. This is something others have related although different numbers. Second thing is this body is two pieces. The main body is cast brass, the extra roof piece looks like lead and is put on with 4 corner pins. I have to correct that I had thought some bodies all one piece cast brass but one wonder if all were two piece like this. Anyone know this answer ????                                                                    Jim             ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:27 PM Subject: [vintageHO] need information To All,           I just received a George Stock GG-1 that I won on Ebay. Over the years I have learned some information, heard some information and had read other bits and pieces concerning George Stock. Even though he made many fine engines, most custom made and painted, I'm only looking for information about the GG-1 at this time. Please let me know if what I write you know as different or can add to this information.        A little back ground about Mr. Stock first. He had a small model shop in Philadelphia that was part of a larger machine shop he ran. Although he had some kind of a back infirmity that limited his movement but not his energy. He was a master machinist who took to modeling HO. He started around 1936 when he made his first GG-1's (and others). My information says he made around a 100 GG-1's from 1936 to after 1950. There were some differences in the GG-1engines he made. A lot of parts were made in England but he made most in his shop. I don't know where bodies casted.          I originally thought all his GG-1's were cast brass bodies with cast metal (zamac or similar casting material) undercarrige (frames, side frames. etc.). He hand turned the drivers out of brass and he made the brass gears. There has been a number of people who claim he had some cast aluminum bodies too. Yet one story said he denied ever making GG-1's with aluminum bodies. The original first bodies were actually two pieces (much like Varney metal F-3's) and you had to attach with pins that roof piece to the main body. Later, but unknown when, he went to one piece bodies. He had two motors powering his GG-1. After the war, 1945, he started to use Pitman DC-60 motors (which were only made after the war) which is another way to tell differences in productions. Does anyone know where he got motors before the war ??. A real oddity at the start is he handmade pantographs that were non working. They were made out of a small piece of U channel and had wire formed to the shape of a pantograph if you were looking from the side. There were two sides for each that were not connected. One pantograph was made in the open position, one in the closed. After ward and again time unknown he started using working pantographs. I am assuming they might have come from Japan but don't know that for a fact. Anyone answer that ????          The Stock GG-1 was full size to scale as were Schrader and Famoco. Later Penn Line and Varney had a shorter then scale type. I have some assembly / drawings and a little written material about the early Stock GG-1's. One is a blue print showing you were to drill needed holes in the body. Yetthe first production states "all holes pre drilled", Again any one know when this changed.           Finally George Stock became very efficient at painting his engines. He also became expert at hand lettering,hand numbering to match the Pennsylvania style in gold. it was said he was better then later decals. But again not all GG-1's were painted as some were kits. Does anyone know more about that ????          Well my one typing finger sore so I'll end this for now. Again if you can verify, add to or correct any mistakes PLEASE let me know. If you have any paper work or drawings that will back up changes to this narrative PLEASE let me know as information is hard to come by. THANKS                                                                                                 Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7859	From: erieberk	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: need information

Hi Jim, Congrats on getting that Geo Stock GG-1; you'll find they are well engineered. I'll try to add a bit to what you've already stated; First, George Stock started producing engines in 1930. He advertised himself as "The Oldest Name in HO Gauge." With that, was the notation of "Since 1930." Completing his name and address, it was: George D. Stock, 83 West Sedgwick Street, Philadelphia 19, PA. As for whether all his GG-1's were cast brass (actually, cast bronze) or not, part of the description for his GG-1 as found in his 1947 catalog says -- "Bronze cab is completely drilled." There's no mention of an aluminum cab, although there may have been one pre- War. But like you found, not all GG-1 cabs came pre-drilled. Stock's GG-1's came three different ways; as a kit (pre-drilled), with jar of paint and decals (@ $32.50), as completely assembled, painted, hand-lettered and striped (@ $60.00) and as a Casting Kit -- comprised of all rough castings, nothing machined. Bronze cab, 4 main frames, 4 lead truck frames, 2 lead truck bolsters, 2 pilot beams and 1 cab roof (apparently a separate piece) (@ $10.00). This GG-1 used 2 DC60 motors, as you stated, which were supplied by Pitman. Stock states, again, in his description of the GG-1; "2 Pittman DC60 motors provide enormous power." As per his 1947 Catalog, Stock lists 3 different motors as being offered as separate items that he handled -- The Pittman 12 Volt Model DC60), the Pittman 12 Volt Model DC71 and the Mantua 12 Volt Model PM. Don't know about the pre-War motors, although an apparent connection with Mantua might indicate something there, but this is only a guess, even though -- it could be a lead. Getting to the pantagraphs, while dummy pantographs were included with any of the GG-1's, he also had a full working pantagraph available separately -- made of brass throughout, fully sprung and completely assembled (@ $3.00 ea.), the dummy pantagraphs were 50 cents each, also sold separately. Ray W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > To All, > I just received a George Stock GG-1 that I won on Ebay. Over the years I have learned some information, heard some information and had read other bits and pieces concerning George Stock. Even though he made many fine engines, most custom made and painted, I'm only looking for information about the GG-1 at this time. Please let me know if what I write you know as different or can add to this information. > A little back ground about Mr. Stock first. He had a small model shop in Philadelphia that was part of a larger machine shop he ran. Although he had some kind of a back infirmity that limited his movement but not his energy. He was a master machinist who took to modeling HO. He started around 1936 when he made his first GG-1's (and others). My information says he made around a 100 GG-1's from 1936 to after 1950. There were some differences in the GG-1engines he made. A lot of parts were made in England but he made most in his shop. I don't know where bodies casted. > I originally thought all his GG-1's were cast brass bodies with cast metal (zamac or similar casting material) undercarrige (frames, side frames. etc.). He hand turned the drivers out of brass and he made the brass gears. There has been a number of people who claim he had some cast aluminum bodies too. Yet one story said he denied ever making GG-1's with aluminum bodies. The original first bodies were actually two pieces (much like Varney metal F-3's) and you had to attach with pins that roof piece to the main body. Later, but unknown when, he went to one piece bodies. He had two motors powering his GG-1. After the war, 1945, he started to use Pitman DC- 60 motors (which were only made after the war) which is another way to tell differences in productions. Does anyone know where he got motors before the war ??. A real oddity at the start is he handmade pantographs that were non working. They were made out of a small piece of U channel and had wire formed to the shape of a pantograph if you were looking from the side. There were two sides for each that were not connected. One pantograph was made in the open position, one in the closed. After ward and again time unknown he started using working pantographs. I am assuming they might have come from Japan but don't know that for a fact. Anyone answer that ???? > The Stock GG-1 was full size to scale as were Schrader and Famoco. Later Penn Line and Varney had a shorter then scale type. I have some assembly / drawings and a little written material about the early Stock GG-1's. One is a blue print showing you were to drill needed holes in the body. Yetthe first production states "all holes pre drilled", Again any one know when this changed. > Finally George Stock became very efficient at painting his engines. He also became expert at hand lettering,hand numbering to match the Pennsylvania style in gold. it was said he was better then later decals. But again not all GG-1's were painted as some were kits. Does anyone know more about that ???? > Well my one typing finger sore so I'll end this for now. Again if you can verify, add to or correct any mistakes PLEASE let me know. If you have any paper work or drawings that will back up changes to this narrative PLEASE let me know as information is hard to come by. THANKS > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7860	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Stock GG-1

Hi Ray,                  THANKS for the information. Yes you are right. Cast Bronze not brass. Your information helpful as it either backs up what I THINK I know and corrects some things. Didn't know he was in HO as early as 1930. This engine runs like a champ.             I have been told that Pitman did not make motors (like DC-60) till after the war. I don't know the truth to that statement but if that is true I would love to "find out" what Stock originally used. I will have to follow up on possible Mantua. Please correct me if I'm wrong but if he made HO as early as 1930 (and I had thought 1936) the earliest motors I know made were 6 volt. It will be very interesting to find out the brand name of early motors used by Stock.            As you can see by my undrilled body all the written word subject to possible change since I have a George Stock "template" where to drill the holes in the GG-1 body .            It's kind of being back to square one as to what is what. With Mr. Stock gone the written word has to be believed unless true Stock samples appear. This will be hard since limited numbers made.            Again Ray thank you for the input. Having those catalogs makes finding out easier. I'm afraid it is going to be hard to exactly pin down all facts. It's going to be fun and interesting            Nice to hear from you.                                                Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7861	From: Rick Tonet	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars

How can we obtain a list of cars and engines?   Thanks, Rick Tonet --- On Sat, 11/1/08, man.ukin <man.ukin@...> wrote: From: man.ukin <man.ukin@...> Subject: [vintageHO] deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars etc To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 12:00 AM hi, i am jens kinne, german, living in the usa i am deleting my complete collection of ho items, i have a big collection but no time anymore i have lamps, trees, boxcars, figures, locos, ho street cars, tanks etc. the most things are mint in box thanks jens

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7862	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Newest aquisition

Back in early 1975 I was on the Hospital having torn cartilage taken out of my knee, my Dad, who was good republican, but enjoyed a joke as much as the next guy, bought me this kit to build while I was confined to my bed. Over the years, it got sold off in one of my modeling focus changes, so I was quite thrilled a few weeks ago when someone offered an unbuilt kit on the HOYardSale list. Some of you may be too young to remember Watergate, and the "plumbers" bugging the Democratic Headquarters, and the wiretaps and the gaps in the Nixon tapes, but for us old pharts it brings back memories, whether they be pleasant or unpleasant. Finished building it this morning. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/981816027/pic/1301325241/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc (If the link doesn't work, just go the group page and click on "newphotos"m or go to the "zDon Dellmann's Stuff, Miscellaneous" album, Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7863	From: Larry	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition

Nice find Don but watch out you might have just ignited the spark under some highly voletile political cargo here. Larry --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > Back in early 1975 I was on the Hospital having torn cartilage taken out of > my knee, my Dad, who was good republican, but enjoyed a joke as much as the > next guy, bought me this kit to build while I was confined to my bed. Over > the years, it got sold off in one of my modeling focus changes, so I was > quite thrilled a few weeks ago when someone offered an unbuilt kit on the > HOYardSale list. > > Some of you may be too young to remember Watergate, and the "plumbers" > bugging the Democratic Headquarters, and the wiretaps and the gaps in the > Nixon tapes, but for us old pharts it brings back memories, whether they be > pleasant or unpleasant. > > Finished building it this morning. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/981816027/pic/13 01325241/view? picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc (If the link doesn't work, just go the group page and click on "newphotos"m or go to the "zDon Dellmann's Stuff, Miscellaneous" album, Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7864	From: erieberk	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: Stock GG-1

Jim, As with any more obscure manufacturer, it gets harder to gather all the early facts on them. Yes, Pittman did not come out with the DC60 until after the War. I would definitely have to assume that Stock's earliest pre-war models were all 6 Volt. As we know, this was the norm in the mid 1930's until just before the War when some modelers converted to 12 volt by changing out their armatures, etc. For that matter, many H0 layouts were made with having a third rail towards the outside of the running rails for current pick up, but I won't get too deep into that here except to remind you that some of Varney's pre-War engines used this method of powering -- they did not have (or need) insulated drivers -- which can really throw a collector of today for a loop in trying to figure out where the "short" is. No doubt George Stock got in on early (pre-War) conversion, and may well have powered his later pre-War models that way. He offered the services of armature rewinding for both 3-pole and 5-pole armatures, magnet recharging and in fact complete motor servicing on all Mantua, Pittman and Varney motors in his 1947 catalog, so there's no reason to think he wasn't into converting motors before the war. One bit of his history which still remains a mystery to me is that while he starting producing and selling H0 in 1930, I have no way of knowing if he started producing engines right off. He may not have produced engines until 1935 or 1936, just as you said you understood him to have started around that time. His earlier offerings may have been rolling stock equipment or detail parts, which he still carried post War. Just wish I had more info (pre-War catalogs) on him. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > THANKS for the information. Yes you are right. Cast Bronze not brass. Your information helpful as it either backs up what I THINK I know and corrects some things. Didn't know he was in HO as early as 1930. This engine runs like a champ. > I have been told that Pitman did not make motors (like DC-60) till after the war. I don't know the truth to that statement but if that is true I would love to "find out" what Stock originally used. I will have to follow up on possible Mantua. Please correct me if I'm wrong but if he made HO as early as 1930 (and I had thought 1936) the earliest motors I know made were 6 volt. It will be very interesting to find out the brand name of early motors used by Stock. > As you can see by my undrilled body all the written word subject to possible change since I have a George Stock "template" where to drill the holes in the GG-1 body . > It's kind of being back to square one as to what is what. With Mr. Stock gone the written word has to be believed unless true Stock samples appear. This will be hard since limited numbers made. > Again Ray thank you for the input. Having those catalogs makes finding out easier. I'm afraid it is going to be hard to exactly pin down all facts. It's going to be fun and interesting > Nice to hear from you. Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7865	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition

Boy Don, That is one that I for all intents and purposes had totally forgot about. Thsnks for the refresh. Wonder if asy of those plumbers were named Joe.... John Hagen St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> > wrote: > > > > > > Back in early 1975 I was on the Hospital having torn cartilage > taken out of > > my knee, my Dad, who was good republican, but enjoyed a joke as > much as the > > next guy, bought me this kit to build while I was confined to my > bed. Over > > the years, it got sold off in one of my modeling focus changes, > so I was > > quite thrilled a few weeks ago when someone offered an unbuilt > kit on the > > HOYardSale list. > > > > Some of you may be too young to remember Watergate, and > the "plumbers" > > bugging the Democratic Headquarters, and the wiretaps and the > gaps in the > > Nixon tapes, but for us old pharts it brings back memories, > whether they be > > pleasant or unpleasant. > > > > Finished building it this morning. > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/981816027/pic/13 > 01325241/view? > picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc (If the link > doesn't work, just go the group page and click on "newphotos"m or go > to the "zDon Dellmann's Stuff, Miscellaneous" album, Don Don > Dellmann don.dellmann@ http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7866	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Great information Ray

The information you shared helpful especially the part how Stock offered motor repair which could help a lot                                                           Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7867	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/1/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition

I think I might have one of those unbuilt here ?!?!?! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Nov 1, 2008, at 2:57 PM, Larry wrote: > Nice find Don but watch out you might have just ignited the spark > under some highly voletile political cargo here. > > Larry > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > wrote: >> >> >> Back in early 1975 I was on the Hospital having torn cartilage > taken out of >> my knee, my Dad, who was good republican, but enjoyed a joke as > much as the >> next guy, bought me this kit to build while I was confined to my > bed. Over >> the years, it got sold off in one of my modeling focus changes, > so I was >> quite thrilled a few weeks ago when someone offered an unbuilt > kit on the >> HOYardSale list. >> >> Some of you may be too young to remember Watergate, and > the "plumbers" >> bugging the Democratic Headquarters, and the wiretaps and the > gaps in the >> Nixon tapes, but for us old pharts it brings back memories, > whether they be >> pleasant or unpleasant. >> >> Finished building it this morning. >> >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/981816027/pic/13 > 01325241/view? > picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7868	From: Jens Kinne	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars

hi, cars and engines already sold, sorry jens --- On Sat, 11/1/08, Rick Tonet <wrtonet@...> wrote: From: Rick Tonet <wrtonet@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars etc To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 4:10 PM How can we obtain a list of cars and engines?   Thanks, Rick Tonet --- On Sat, 11/1/08, man.ukin <man.ukin@yahoo. com> wrote: From: man.ukin <man.ukin@yahoo. com> Subject: [vintageHO] deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars etc To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, November 1, 2008, 12:00 AM hi, i am jens kinne, german, living in the usa i am deleting my complete collection of ho items, i have a big collection but no time anymore i have lamps, trees, boxcars, figures, locos, ho street cars, tanks etc. the most things are mint in box thanks jens

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7869	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Newest aquisition >I think I might have one of those unbuilt here ?!?!?! > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > If we ever clean your house it'll be like an archeological expedition ! Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7870	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: Newest aquisition

Home depot rents those walk-behind skid steers. John Hagen St Francis (formerly Twn of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 5:22 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Newest aquisition > > > >I think I might have one of those unbuilt here ?!?!?! > > > > Best to ya, > > Mike Bauers > > Milwaukee, Wi > > > > If we ever clean your house it'll be like an archeological expedition ! > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7871	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Stock GG-1

Ray,                  After cleaning off layers of paint both inside and out I found out other interesting "facts"about the Stock GG-1. Must tell you that this was the dirtiest (and not oily grimy dirt) dustiest ,on the inside, engine I have ever seen. It even had cobwebs inside. Had at least a 1/4 " of dust built up on everything that was inside. Motor, wires and all nooks and crannies besides the paint.                 First the main body is actually 2 halves "fused" together and the outside "machined '' off extremely well. With the added roof piece you could say the body was made from 3 pieces.                 Another interesting item is that, along with the body having a four digit number stamped on the bottom edge, each drive mechanism at the front end has the word STOCK 'imprinted " above where the lead / trailing trucks attach. I had some information that his name was there but with all the paint you couldn't tell. It's not very deep and it was done with a special shaped little tool / punch. It seems to be a dot inside a little circle that he maneuvered to form the letters, An odd way to print his name. One thing is it can't be denied it is Stock.                                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7872	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Stock GG-1

Attachments : Hi Ray and any others interested,               Three pictures of the disassembled Stock GG-1 I won on Ebay. Have to clean last flat green coat of paint off with a paint stripper and fix some very little problems.                                                                                Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7873	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: My Latest Vids

Hi All,   Here are links to my latest videos, the first one is a resurrection of the Withlacoochee River Report, kind of an "I'm Back", report, the next few are progress videos showing what has been done on the Durango and Silverton Virtual Narrow Gauge RR, in the first one of that series, notice some of the trees blowing in the breeze....:o)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0P5zHgixvk   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuSOGweOZZE   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYraGfdeZzg   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTTJc41qjBg   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YgvFptf6Q0   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEGZ8X2n4go   Gary W     Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7874	From: jbark76	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars

I think tanks were mentioned in the list. What do you have in the way of WWII era military tanks and vehicles? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7875	From: Jens Kinne	Date: 11/2/2008
Subject: Re: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars

hi, no wwII items in ho only in 1/144 regards jens --- On Mon, 11/3/08, jbark76 <jbark76@...> wrote: From: jbark76 <jbark76@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: deleting my ho collection 5000 ho people, 2000 lamps, 2000 cars etc To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 12:43 AM I think tanks were mentioned in the list. What do you have in the way of WWII era military tanks and vehicles? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7876	From: Jim Snyder	Date: 11/3/2008
Subject: Vintage"Golden Age" Brass...

Hi Folks! I haven't been here in a while and things have changed! I have alway said I was an On3er buta few years ago, I got into '60s-style HO. I was given a BUNCH of old cars! Some are in the photo section here... But I had always looked upon them as being antiques- which, I guess they are! But I've been acquiring '60s PFM.Max Gray, Ken Kidder and Gem models.I find that these brass models, when painted correctly, look just great! I can remember wishing for a Sierra 2-6-6-2 as a kid. It was about $60.00. I finally got one on eBay in 1999! Paid $500. Back then, ANY brass loco was $300 or more(-on eBay...). Today, many of these can be had for considerably less. I have accumulated an "Omaha" 0-6- 0, UP 0-6-0, 2 Ma & Pa 2-8-0s, another Sierra, a GEM T&P 4-6-0, PFM Ps4 4-6-2, Max Gray S.P. 4-8-0 and a couple others. They averaged about $180.00 each- or about the cost of Proto 2000 and Bachmann Spectrum steamers. And, as we all know, 'dey's jus' somethin' about brass!' I do have others- quite a few- but I really like the models from the '62 through '68 catalogs. Add can motors and, sometimes NWSL gearing and .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7877	From: Jim Snyder	Date: 11/3/2008
Subject: Vintage"Golden Age" Brass...

Hi Folks! I haven't been here in a while and things have changed! I have alway said I was an On3er buta few years ago, I got into '60s-style HO. I was given a BUNCH of old cars! Some are in the photo section here... But I had always looked upon them as being antiques- which, I guess they are! But I've been acquiring '60s PFM.Max Gray, Ken Kidder and Gem models.I find that these brass models, when painted correctly, look just great! I can remember wishing for a Sierra 2-6-6-2 as a kid. It was about $60.00. I finally got one on eBay in 1999! Paid $500. Back then, ANY brass loco was $300 or more(-on eBay...). Today, many of these can be had for considerably less. I have accumulated an "Omaha" 0-6- 0, UP 0-6-0, 2 Ma & Pa 2-8-0s, another Sierra, a GEM T&P 4-6-0, PFM Ps4 4-6-2, Max Gray S.P. 4-8-0 and a couple others. They averaged about $180.00 each- or about the cost of Proto 2000 and Bachmann Spectrum steamers. And, as we all know, 'dey's jus' somethin' about brass!' I do have others- quite a few- but I really like the models from the '62 through '68 catalogs. Add can motors and, sometimes NWSL gearing and these become great- running models!.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7878	From: Glenn476	Date: 11/5/2008
Subject: surplus stuff

Among the older HO stuff that I probably will not get around to working on in the next few years are six (6) Holgate & Reynolds SP double-deck Commute cars.  Three are built up and operable, the other three either kits or partly built I'll take any reasonable offer, and possibly an unreasonable one.  8^)    Contact me off-=list at glenn476 @...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7879	From: Jens Kinne	Date: 11/5/2008
Subject: Re: surplus stuff

hi, please take a look in my site, till 31.12.2008 no shipping www.modelleisenbahn-figuren.com in 2 Languages regards jens --- On Thu, 11/6/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: [vintageHO] surplus stuff To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 12:44 AM Among the older HO stuff that I probably will not get around to working on in the next few years are six (6) Holgate & Reynolds SP double-deck Commute cars.  Three are built up and operable, the other three either kits or partly built I'll take any reasonable offer, and possibly an unreasonable one.  8^)    Contact me off-=list at glenn476 @...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7880	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/7/2008
Subject: Trainfest

Lets not forget that this is Trainfest weekend in the great city of Milwaukee. Oh all right. Its actually in West Allis. Big Deal. But the show IS a big deal! Always worth visiting. Stop by the Green Bay & Western Historical Society booth and say "Hi" to me and/or the Cream City Traction layout where you will find group owner Don Dellman, Mike Bauers and who knows who else what may be hanging around. http://www.trainfest.com/ John Hagen Milwaukee, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7881	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 11/9/2008
Subject: Selling Broadway Limited HO brass cars by SoHo

Hello all, As these brass cars are some 32 years old, and represent a by-gone era in Japanese brass passenger cars, I decided to offer them on this list as well as on the Passenger Car and Brass Models lists. I hope nobody minds too much. I bought these cars brand new in 1976, as SoHo issued them. At the time, SoHo was considered state-of-the-art. They cost a whopping [then] $40+ each. There is some tarnish, and although they have NEVER been used, a few corner steps seem to have broken off. Otherwise, they are in excellent condition. I have posted pictures in an album entitled, "Broadway Limited HO cars by SoHo". I have other pix too if you are a serious potential buyer and need to see more. I will consider any reasonable offer for the lot. Thanks, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7882	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Finished Stock GG-1

Attachments :                These are pictures of my finished George Stock GG-1.  Chuck,please just put the second picture (full side view, IMG- 2508) into my album. For Christmas my wife lets me pick out and buy my own gift. This is it. While it's a little early sometimes you buy when you can find.               This engine was made between 1936 and up to around 1950. There were roughly a 100 made. The body is a cast bronze. It does not have the most detailed body. This one had some flaws and nicks that I had to fill. I might paint this to hide them. The side frames, frames, trucks and ends are a cast lead like material to me. Just looks like lead you would melt on the stove. The drivers and gearing are brass and made by George Stock who by trade was a machinist first. The engine has 2 DC-60 Pitman motors and runs extremely well, very smooth and almost noiseless.              The engine will join my vintage collection just as it was made. It has two detail flaws from what I believe the normal GG-1 had. The headlight openings seem to be lower then they should and for some reason the plans I have show to mount one bell on top. I am use to 2 horns being on other HO models. Anyone know what is right ???                                                                                                  Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7883	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Re: Finished Stock GG-1

Jim,  The prototype had a set of horns on each hood, centered and very near (almost butted up against) the cab.  The bell was mounted on the main frame rail, hanging down from it.  Even in this location, it was still chest high.  I believe there was only one, and I seem to recall it was located near the forward end of one of the drive sideframes, near where the number starts -- but then too, my recollections aren't always crystal clear, it may have been further back along the main frame.  I'll try to see if I can locate it in any of my slides, but it may not show up enough to be spotted.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7884	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Varney trucks

I recently purchased an intact Varney Boxcar #2 (B-2), which reportedly was last produced in 1940. The lead-alloy trucks have the tenite wheels, and the running board is plastic. It is possible that this very old kit was assembled at a later date with newer parts. I know that the early history of Varney trucks in the thirties is pretty muddy (I have three Varney cars known to have been built in 1937, none of which had intact trucks of any kind- presumably because they had long ago fallen apart. Just when did Varney start to produce the tenite wheels? The early Varneys had paperboard running boards, so I would presume that the plastic board was either an aftermarket later addition, or production began prior to stopping the production of the earlier kits. Does anyone have more definitive information? Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7885	From: erieberk@wmconnect.com	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Re: Finished Stock GG-1

Jim,  I see that you've already mounted the bell.  That's just about where a set of horns would go.  You're right about the headlight position.  Where it is now, its centered just about where the top of the keystone numberboard would line up with  It should be higher, but if that's the way it was manufactured, I wouldn't want to mess with it. (unless the previous owner drilled them too low).  A real nice model.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7886	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Re: Finished Stock GG-1

Ray,                Appreciate the answers. I never knew where a bell was mounted on the real GG-1. I had only ever seen two horns. One front and back where you mention. Since the early Stock plans I have show no horns but show one bell mounted in front of the cab on top of the body I want to keep it "as original" as far as the model was made.            Same goes with the headlight. The holes were originally where they are now, as was first made. A previous owner blocked them up and drilled smaller holes up where you state. I filled the higher small holes and went back to the original holes as was manufactured.            While both these things would be wrong for a lot of collectors,for me originally manufactured is right. Again thanks for the response. Still this is how I lean about the real thing.                                                                               Jim                                                                                                                                                                           ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Finished Stock GG-1 Jim,  The prototype had a set of horns on each hood, centered and very near (almost butted up against) the cab.  The bell was mounted on the main frame rail, hanging down from it.  Even in this location, it was still chest high.  I believe there was only one, and I seem to recall it was located near the forward end of one of the drive sideframes, near where the number starts -- but then too, my recollections aren't always crystal clear, it may have been further back along the main frame.  I'll try to see if I can locate it in any of my slides, but it may not show up enough to be spotted.  Ray

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7887	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 11/11/2008
Subject: Re: Finished Stock GG-1

Jim, Photo loaded and looks real nice.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7888	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks

So far as tennite parts, I have a Verney paper and wood 40' woodside reefer, lettered for Rath's Blackhawk Ham. It came to me new in box, complete with all paperwork, including a packing slip dated to 1946. The car has tennite wheels, ice hatches, and running board. So, I can assume it is a war-era/early postwar development. Where did you get your date from, I can dig my reffer insteructions up again and look at he date on it. I assume that they may have used prewar instruction even on postwar cars, and had prewar dates on the instructions accordingly. -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote: > > I recently purchased an intact Varney Boxcar #2 (B-2), which > reportedly was last produced in 1940. The lead-alloy trucks have the > tenite wheels, and the running board is plastic. It is possible that > this very old kit was assembled at a later date with newer parts. I > know that the early history of Varney trucks in the thirties is pretty > muddy (I have three Varney cars known to have been built in 1937, none > of which had intact trucks of any kind- presumably because they had > long ago fallen apart. > > Just when did Varney start to produce the tenite wheels? > > The early Varneys had paperboard running boards, so I would presume > that the plastic board was either an aftermarket later addition, or > production began prior to stopping the production of the earlier kits. > > Does anyone have more definitive information? > > Denny > > Denny S. Anspach MD > Sacramento >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7889	From: erieberk	Date: 11/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks

We cannot go just by tenite "parts." Varney was producing both gondolas and cattle cars of Tenite pre-War, by 1939. The pre-War grooved wood roofwalks were replaced by Tenite roof walks before the start of the War. The Tenite ladders were not produdced until after the War. The Rath's Blackhawk Ham reefer was first produced in 1939 (through 1942) as kit # R-13; the car # was 200. It was continued through the War (1940 -- 1945) as one of Varney's Mainline series, kit # MR-5, still with the same car number, but of course being a no frills kit, contained no trucks. It was again released in 1946 (through 1950) again as Varney kit # R-13, and again, with the same car number. Your packing slip of 1946 is a help in determining its date of origin, unless it was new -- old stock from pre-War production. A clincher on pinpointing the production date (unless the instruction sheet can add to this), is that while both production periods for this kit used the same box, the end label on the post-War box had the word "VARNEY" in large white block letters with black shadowing, usually on a red background (but yellow was also used), with the kit description underneath this. The pre-War box did not have this, but instead had "VARNEY" on the end panel in small letters near the bottom on a blue background -- the kit description label was centered above this. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > So far as tennite parts, I have a Verney paper and wood 40' woodside > reefer, lettered for Rath's Blackhawk Ham. It came to me new in box, > complete with all paperwork, including a packing slip dated to 1946. > The car has tennite wheels, ice hatches, and running board. So, I can > assume it is a war-era/early postwar development. > > Where did you get your date from, I can dig my reffer insteructions up > again and look at he date on it. I assume that they may have used > prewar instruction even on postwar cars, and had prewar dates on the > instructions accordingly. > > -Steve Neubaum > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@> wrote: > > > > I recently purchased an intact Varney Boxcar #2 (B-2), which > > reportedly was last produced in 1940. The lead-alloy trucks have the > > tenite wheels, and the running board is plastic. It is possible that > > this very old kit was assembled at a later date with newer parts. I > > know that the early history of Varney trucks in the thirties is pretty > > muddy (I have three Varney cars known to have been built in 1937, none > > of which had intact trucks of any kind- presumably because they had > > long ago fallen apart. > > > > Just when did Varney start to produce the tenite wheels? > > > > The early Varneys had paperboard running boards, so I would presume > > that the plastic board was either an aftermarket later addition, or > > production began prior to stopping the production of the earlier kits. > > > > Does anyone have more definitive information? > > > > Denny > > > > Denny S. Anspach MD > > Sacramento > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7890	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/12/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks

@Ray, I was just noting what I have seen. And I really may have some stuff jumbled from what I usually 'know', as I have spent the past few weeks very sick. It has sort of dragged me down and shot out my memory. You're right about the tennite cattle cars. I have four or so of them. I think they show up in some prewar Varney catalogs on HO Seeker. Actually, I just picked one up at Trainfest in Milwaukee on Sunday. Of course, you're right about swapping parts, and Varney being a business first, they could have used up prewar stock in the postwar era easily. Now the gears in my mind are turning. Slowly, mind, as I am still sick, but they ARE turning now! -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > We cannot go just by tenite "parts." Varney was producing both > gondolas and cattle cars of Tenite pre-War, by 1939. The pre-War > grooved wood roofwalks were replaced by Tenite roof walks before the > start of the War. The Tenite ladders were not produdced until after > the War. > > The Rath's Blackhawk Ham reefer was first produced in 1939 (through > 1942) as kit # R-13; the car # was 200. It was continued through the > War (1940 -- 1945) as one of Varney's Mainline series, kit # MR-5, > still with the same car number, but of course being a no frills kit, > contained no trucks. It was again released in 1946 (through 1950) > again as Varney kit # R-13, and again, with the same car number. > Your packing slip of 1946 is a help in determining its date of > origin, unless it was new -- old stock from pre-War production. > > A clincher on pinpointing the production date (unless the instruction > sheet can add to this), is that while both production periods for > this kit used the same box, the end label on the post-War box had the > word "VARNEY" in large white block letters with black shadowing, > usually on a red background (but yellow was also used), with the kit > description underneath this. The pre-War box did not have this, but > instead had "VARNEY" on the end panel in small letters near the > bottom on a blue background -- the kit description label was centered > above this. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" > <computersystemrebuild@> wrote: > > > > So far as tennite parts, I have a Verney paper and wood 40' woodside > > reefer, lettered for Rath's Blackhawk Ham. It came to me new in box, > > complete with all paperwork, including a packing slip dated to 1946. > > The car has tennite wheels, ice hatches, and running board. So, I > can > > assume it is a war-era/early postwar development. > > > > Where did you get your date from, I can dig my reffer insteructions > up > > again and look at he date on it. I assume that they may have used > > prewar instruction even on postwar cars, and had prewar dates on the > > instructions accordingly. > > > > -Steve Neubaum > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@> wrote: > > > > > > I recently purchased an intact Varney Boxcar #2 (B-2), which > > > reportedly was last produced in 1940. The lead-alloy trucks have > the > > > tenite wheels, and the running board is plastic. It is possible > that > > > this very old kit was assembled at a later date with newer > parts. I > > > know that the early history of Varney trucks in the thirties is > pretty > > > muddy (I have three Varney cars known to have been built in 1937, > none > > > of which had intact trucks of any kind- presumably because they > had > > > long ago fallen apart. > > > > > > Just when did Varney start to produce the tenite wheels? > > > > > > The early Varneys had paperboard running boards, so I would > presume > > > that the plastic board was either an aftermarket later addition, > or > > > production began prior to stopping the production of the earlier > kits. > > > > > > Does anyone have more definitive information? > > > > > > Denny > > > > > > Denny S. Anspach MD > > > Sacramento > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7891	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 11/13/2008
Subject: Varney trucks

The comments on this issue confirm a model railroad hobby industry truism: waste not, want not. Although models/kits would be changed, retired, or remade anew, existing parts inventories would be exhausted before new parts would be ordered. Although Gordon Varney was one of the very few in this hobby to become actually wealthy (with the help of WWII contracts), he was not wealthy in the thirties and the prewar '40's when he was trying to create a new market for a brand new gauge. I purchased my first Varney boxcar kit (B-31) in 1946 and at that time it came with brass wheels with brass-bolstered equalizing trucks. However, I would not be surprised to hear from others that some kits came with the prewar design rigid trucks and tenite wheels. My B-1 boxcar, personally known to have been assembled in 1936-7 for a specific exposition, has embossed die-cut paperboard running boards; while my B-2 boxcar has the familiar plastic running board. Inasmuch as these early boxcars with the unique photographic rotogravure sides were not produced after 1940, I would presume that the plastic board and its tenite-wheeled trucks on this model were most likely from a kit produced right at the end of production. BTW, I have one of the early yellow/blue boxes marked for B-1, confirming that these early models lasted THAT long! On another subject: In Spanagel's Varney book (p.130) is a photo of the kit directions for Varney C-2, the very briefly-produced Milwaukee Road ribside caboose just prior to the war. I have two imperfect examples of these models that I intend to non-destructively dismantle, and then reassemble as a single more-perfect completed car. Does anyone know WHO might have copies of these directions, either sketch or finished item?. I would like to inquire of him or her as to the possibility of securing a copy. Thank you. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7892	From: Larry	Date: 11/13/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks

Denny look through the freight car diagrams at this link. It may be here. http://www.hoseeker.org/varneyinstructions.html Larry --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote: > > The comments on this issue confirm a model railroad hobby industry > truism: waste not, want not. Although models/kits would be changed, > retired, or remade anew, existing parts inventories would be exhausted > before new parts would be ordered. Although Gordon Varney was one of > the very few in this hobby to become actually wealthy (with the help > of WWII contracts), he was not wealthy in the thirties and the prewar > '40's when he was trying to create a new market for a brand new gauge. > > I purchased my first Varney boxcar kit (B-31) in 1946 and at that > time it came with brass wheels with brass-bolstered equalizing trucks. > However, I would not be surprised to hear from others that some kits > came with the prewar design rigid trucks and tenite wheels. > > My B-1 boxcar, personally known to have been assembled in 1936-7 for a > specific exposition, has embossed die-cut paperboard running boards; > while my B-2 boxcar has the familiar plastic running board. Inasmuch > as these early boxcars with the unique photographic rotogravure sides > were not produced after 1940, I would presume that the plastic board > and its tenite-wheeled trucks on this model were most likely from a > kit produced right at the end of production. > > BTW, I have one of the early yellow/blue boxes marked for B-1, > confirming that these early models lasted THAT long! > > On another subject: In Spanagel's Varney book (p.130) is a photo of > the kit directions for Varney C-2, the very briefly-produced Milwaukee > Road ribside caboose just prior to the war. I have two imperfect > examples of these models that I intend to non-destructively dismantle, > and then reassemble as a single more-perfect completed car. Does > anyone know WHO might have copies of these directions, either sketch > or finished item?. I would like to inquire of him or her as to the > possibility of securing a copy. > > Thank you. > > Denny > > > Denny S. Anspach MD > Sacramento >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7893	From: Rick Tonet	Date: 11/13/2008
Subject: AHM Train Set Posters

Can anyone confirm (or deny) that AHM included a rather large and long train poster in AHM sets in the 1960's that depicted either a freight train or a passenger train. The color posters were actually about 12 feet in length and about 8" high and depicted a farily complete train from the F units that pulled the consist to the caboose. I have one of each of these poster sets and just found out today from a source in California that they were supposedly included in AHM HO sets. Does anyone actually have an AHM set that included these great illustrated trains?   Lastly, I am looking for Pom Poms candy boxes offered in the 1960's that depicted a locomotive or train car on the back of the candy box. Does anyone have a lead to where I can find an original box or even just a photo copy of these great illustrations. Thanks!!!   Rick Leechburg PA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7894	From: Steven Winter	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Marx id

Is there a way to identify a Marx HO car? Is there a number somewhere I'm just not finding?   Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7895	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Re: Marx id

Steven,              Two things to help ID Marx HO cars.    1           All the freight cars,and diesels have a circle on the bottom with an X and the letters MAR over the X  Hence Marx. I haven't found it on the only passenger cars they sold that were made in Japan. I will have to check steam closer.    2       If you can find Greenberg's Pocket Price Guide and Inventory Checklist to Marx Toys. The back pages list all HO items by number and year made. Theses numbers, plus roadname along with year made will match  all Marx HO items just like Lionel O and Flyer S.                                                      Jim                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Marx id Is there a way to identify a Marx HO car? Is there a number somewhere I'm just not finding?   Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7896	From: Steven Winter	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Re: Marx id

Some of the newer looking cars are made in Hong Kong. Are these authentic? Older cars say USA. Did Model Power buy Marx? I have Model Power that are exact duplicates of Marx right down to the circle on the bottom, but the circle is blank.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Marx id Steven,              Two things to help ID Marx HO cars.    1           All the freight cars,and diesels have a circle on the bottom with an X and the letters MAR over the X  Hence Marx. I haven't found it on the only passenger cars they sold that were made in Japan. I will have to check steam closer.    2       If you can find Greenberg's Pocket Price Guide and Inventory Checklist to Marx Toys. The back pages list all HO items by number and year made. Theses numbers, plus roadname along with year made will match  all Marx HO items just like Lionel O and Flyer S.                                                      Jim                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Marx id Is there a way to identify a Marx HO car? Is there a number somewhere I'm just not finding?   Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7897	From: Steven Winter	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Re: Marx id

Jim,   Sorry, I wasn't clear. I know it's a Marx car, I just wanted to know if there is a part number or model number somewhere on the car?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Marx id Steven,              Two things to help ID Marx HO cars.    1           All the freight cars,and diesels have a circle on the bottom with an X and the letters MAR over the X  Hence Marx. I haven't found it on the only passenger cars they sold that were made in Japan. I will have to check steam closer.    2       If you can find Greenberg's Pocket Price Guide and Inventory Checklist to Marx Toys. The back pages list all HO items by number and year made. Theses numbers, plus roadname along with year made will match  all Marx HO items just like Lionel O and Flyer S.                                                      Jim                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Marx id Is there a way to identify a Marx HO car? Is there a number somewhere I'm just not finding?   Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7898	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Re: Marx id

Sorry I can't answer if Model Power or anybody else still produces Marx HO items under their name. I only know  Marx HO and Sears Allstate (Marx HO) from 1957-1958 till early in the 70's. The numbers in the catalog I talked about only covers these items for matching to ID                                Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Marx id Some of the newer looking cars are made in Hong Kong. Are these authentic? Older cars say USA. Did Model Power buy Marx? I have Model Power that are exact duplicates of Marx right down to the circle on the bottom, but the circle is blank.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Marx id Steven,              Two things to help ID Marx HO cars.    1           All the freight cars,and diesels have a circle on the bottom with an X and the letters MAR over the X  Hence Marx. I haven't found it on the only passenger cars they sold that were made in Japan. I will have to check steam closer.    2       If you can find Greenberg's Pocket Price Guide and Inventory Checklist to Marx Toys. The back pages list all HO items by number and year made. Theses numbers, plus roadname along with year made will match  all Marx HO items just like Lionel O and Flyer S.                                                      Jim                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Winter To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:22 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Marx id Is there a way to identify a Marx HO car? Is there a number somewhere I'm just not finding?   Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7899	From: sswcharlie	Date: 11/14/2008
Subject: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered sides near the top ? Photos or drawings anywhere ? Charlie Harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7900	From: jay matz	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

Charlie Look at this site http://www.trainweb.org/ambroidkits/ Jay --- On Sat, 11/15/08, sswcharlie <railroads@...> wrote: From: sswcharlie <railroads@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars' To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 1:20 AM The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered sides near the top ? Photos or drawings anywhere ? Charlie Harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7901	From: erieberk	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

Charlie, No, this was a wood side outside-braced reefer. You're thinking of Laconia, and later, Binkley. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "sswcharlie" <railroads@...> wrote: > > The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered sides > near the top ? > > Photos or drawings anywhere ? > > Charlie Harris >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7902	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

Here a photo of the protoype. The design is clearly different than the Ambroid car. Doesn't make the ambroid kit wrong, just a model of a differtent design series of cars. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote: > > Charlie, No, this was a wood side outside-braced reefer. You're > thinking of Laconia, and later, Binkley. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "sswcharlie" <railroads@> wrote: > > > > The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered sides > > near the top ? > > > > Photos or drawings anywhere ? > > > > Charlie Harris > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7903	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

Crs at its finest. Link is below. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/shpx1505asw.jpg John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Here a photo of the protoype. The design is clearly different than the > Ambroid car. Doesn't make the ambroid kit wrong, just a model of a > differtent design series of cars. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > Charlie, No, this was a wood side outside-braced reefer. You're > > thinking of Laconia, and later, Binkley. Ray > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "sswcharlie" <railroads@> wrote: > > > > > > The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered sides > > > near the top ? > > > > > > Photos or drawings anywhere ? > > > > > > Charlie Harris > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7904	From: Larry	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

The diagram and instructions are listed here for Laconia/Binkley Mathieson Dry Ice Car. I am not sure if Ambroid made this car. http://www.hoseeker.org/otherhotrains3.html Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/lit.html --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Crs at its finest. Link is below. > > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/shpx1505asw.jpg > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote: > > > > Here a photo of the protoype. The design is clearly different than > the > > Ambroid car. Doesn't make the ambroid kit wrong, just a model of a > > differtent design series of cars. > > > > John Hagen > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > Charlie, No, this was a wood side outside-braced reefer. You're > > > thinking of Laconia, and later, Binkley. Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "sswcharlie" <railroads@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered > sides > > > > near the top ? > > > > > > > > Photos or drawings anywhere ? > > > > > > > > Charlie Harris > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7905	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks

Well now I got a related question: At TrainFest, I picked up a Varney Carbonic Ice car. The end sills, brakewheel, and landing pads on the roof are all tennite. However, the roofwalk is aluminum. The woofwalk was broken off and in the car's box, but just now prior to re-attaching it, I matched the glue marks up, so it is the roofwalk that someone had on there before at least, if it isn't THE original roofwalk. My friend at the hobby shop thinks this is a car from the '50s or late '40s (I am inclined to think late 1940s). The car has Mantua loop couplers, and per how they were mounted, Varney's rigid high centers would not fit. I got the car without trucks, and what did fit were the trucks that had a brass center piece that sideframes screwed onto. Transition parts car maybe? Or can someone shed some light on this? Nice interesting car, the silver color of it breaks up the monotony of browns and black in a freight train, same as a billboard reefer does. -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <seekingho@...> wrote: > > Denny look through the freight car diagrams at this link. It may be > here. > http://www.hoseeker.org/varneyinstructions.html > Larry > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@> wrote: > > > > The comments on this issue confirm a model railroad hobby > industry > > truism: waste not, want not. Although models/kits would be > changed, > > retired, or remade anew, existing parts inventories would be > exhausted > > before new parts would be ordered. Although Gordon Varney was one > of > > the very few in this hobby to become actually wealthy (with the > help > > of WWII contracts), he was not wealthy in the thirties and the > prewar > > '40's when he was trying to create a new market for a brand new > gauge. > > > > I purchased my first Varney boxcar kit (B-31) in 1946 and at > that > > time it came with brass wheels with brass-bolstered equalizing > trucks. > > However, I would not be surprised to hear from others that some > kits > > came with the prewar design rigid trucks and tenite wheels. > > > > My B-1 boxcar, personally known to have been assembled in 1936-7 > for a > > specific exposition, has embossed die-cut paperboard running > boards; > > while my B-2 boxcar has the familiar plastic running board. > Inasmuch > > as these early boxcars with the unique photographic rotogravure > sides > > were not produced after 1940, I would presume that the plastic > board > > and its tenite-wheeled trucks on this model were most likely from > a > > kit produced right at the end of production. > > > > BTW, I have one of the early yellow/blue boxes marked for B-1, > > confirming that these early models lasted THAT long! > > > > On another subject: In Spanagel's Varney book (p.130) is a photo > of > > the kit directions for Varney C-2, the very briefly-produced > Milwaukee > > Road ribside caboose just prior to the war. I have two imperfect > > examples of these models that I intend to non-destructively > dismantle, > > and then reassemble as a single more-perfect completed car. Does > > anyone know WHO might have copies of these directions, either > sketch > > or finished item?. I would like to inquire of him or her as to > the > > possibility of securing a copy. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Denny > > > > > > Denny S. Anspach MD > > Sacramento > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7906	From: Walter J. Bayer II	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Mantua 'Loop' couplers

I seem to recall someone asking for Mantua couplers some time ago. Well, in dredging through some 'lost' boxes of stuff, I found a small quantity of them. I will gladly mail them, gratis, to anuone who needs [wants] them. Contact me off-list at bayerw@.... First come, first served, of course. Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7907	From: Charlie	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

Hi   Thanks for info.  Answered a lot of questions.  E€xcellent site.   Only one problem!    I ow have more on my list of 'want to buy'   Thks   Charlie       ----- Original Message ----- From: jay matz To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 12:58 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars' Charlie Look at this site http://www.trainweb .org/ambroidkits / Jay --- On Sat, 11/15/08, sswcharlie <railroads@tech- j.biz> wrote: From: sswcharlie <railroads@tech- j.biz> Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars' To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 1:20 AM The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered sides near the top ? Photos or drawings anywhere ? Charlie Harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7908	From: Charlie	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

Hi   Thanks for this info.   I will follow up re the Laconia and Binkley kits.   Any ideas online of info of these kits ?   Thks   Charlie   (upside down in New Zealand)       ----- Original Message ----- From: erieberk To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 4:13 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars' Charlie, No, this was a wood side outside-braced reefer. You're thinking of Laconia, and later, Binkley. Ray --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "sswcharlie" <railroads@. ..> wrote: > > The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered sides > near the top ? > > Photos or drawings anywhere ? > > Charlie Harris >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7909	From: Charlie	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

Hi   Yes I see now quite differnet.  The one  I want is metal sided.   Thks   Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hagen To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 4:35 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars' Here a photo of the protoype. The design is clearly different than the Ambroid car. Doesn't make the ambroid kit wrong, just a model of a differtent design series of cars. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .> wrote: > > Charlie, No, this was a wood side outside-braced reefer. You're > thinking of Laconia, and later, Binkley. Ray > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "sswcharlie" <railroads@> wrote: > > > > The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered sides > > near the top ? > > > > Photos or drawings anywhere ? > > > > Charlie Harris > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7910	From: Charlie	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

Hi Larry   Thanks for the info.   (ignore my post coming up)   I will followup your urls.   Such a good group for finding out info.   Congratulations to group owner.   Charlie       ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:02 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars' The diagram and instructions are listed here for Laconia/Binkley Mathieson Dry Ice Car. I am not sure if Ambroid made this car. http://www.hoseeker .org/otherhotrai ns3.html Larry http://www.hoseeker .org/lit. html --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@. ..> wrote: > > Crs at its finest. Link is below. > > http://www.rr- fallenflags. org/acfx/ shpx1505asw. jpg > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote: > > > > Here a photo of the protoype. The design is clearly different than > the > > Ambroid car. Doesn't make the ambroid kit wrong, just a model of a > > differtent design series of cars. > > > > John Hagen > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote: > > > > > > Charlie, No, this was a wood side outside-braced reefer. You're > > > thinking of Laconia, and later, Binkley. Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "sswcharlie" <railroads@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The HO model produce by Ambroid, was it the car with tapered > sides > > > > near the top ? > > > > > > > > Photos or drawings anywhere ? > > > > > > > > Charlie Harris > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7911	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

Charlie, We (That's Mike Bauers, myself and a couple of other locals) tend to be a bit more conservative in any public admiration of Don's group(s), if we bother to mention them at all. Not that they don't deserve it (they do) but we have to live with the man. Pappy always told me "Son it's best to keep your friends and acquaintances humble else they start to notice how much better than you they are". Such runaway endorsing of his group(s) as that exhibited in you post will definitely have the opposite effect, Try to control yourself in the future. John Hagen St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie" <railroads@...> wrote: > > Hi Larry > > Thanks for the info. (ignore my post coming up) > > I will followup your urls. > > Such a good group for finding out info. > > Congratulations to group owner. > > Charlie > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7912	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/15/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie" <railroads@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars' Hi Larry Thanks for the info. (ignore my post coming up) I will followup your urls. Such a good group for finding out info. Congratulations to group owner. Charlie =========================================================================================================================== It isn't me, it's the great bunch of people we have here. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7913	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 11/16/2008
Subject: Re: Varney trucks

"railwaymodeler" computersystemrebuild@...  railwaymodeler Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:30 pm (PST) writes- Well now I got a related question: At TrainFest, I picked up a Varney Carbonic Ice car. The end sills, brakewheel, and landing pads on the roof are all tennite. ....However, the roofwalk is aluminum...  Transition parts car maybe? Or can someone shed some light on this? This was R-19 a kit produced by Varney 1946-50. Some consider it to have been oversized and out of scale (unusual, inasmuch as to that time one of Varney's great strength was that his other cars were pretty carefully in 3.5mm/1 ft.  scale).  Tenite was a kind of early hard brittle plastic used on wheels, and most notoriously in stock car sides. The Varney parts otherwise were cast of a different soft plastic more similar to styrene. Denny    Denny S.  Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7914	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/16/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars'

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid 'Mathieson Dry Ice Cars' > Charlie, > > We (That's Mike Bauers, myself and a couple of other locals) tend to be > a bit more conservative in any public admiration of Don's group(s), if > we bother to mention them at all. Not that they don't deserve it (they > do) but we have to live with the man. Pappy always told me "Son it's > best to keep your friends and acquaintances humble else they start to > notice how much better than you they are". > > Such runaway endorsing of his group(s) as that exhibited in you post > will definitely have the opposite effect, Try to control yourself in > the future. > > John Hagen > St Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI And I though you were my friend! <GD&R> Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7915	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/16/2008
Subject: need direction/diagram for kit

I recently got a Northeastern HO winged B&M wood snow-plow semi-kit at a swap meet. It is partly built and has all the important parts including the embossed foil plow metal. The builder stopped construction before applying the plow and the kit is missing it's instructions. I've hunted through the known web sources for the Ambroid/NorthEastern plans, but there are only the plans for that other snow-plow kit they made. Does anyone have the directions and diagrams filed away that could send me a scan of them??? Thanks, Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7916	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/16/2008
Subject: Re: need direction/diagram for kit

Hi Mike, I have scans already.  I will be very happy to send them.  There are 4 files, about 6.5 total.  Basically 2 sides  of a sheet.  Just reply to verify that I should send them to mwbauers55@... and if I should send 2 files, wait for your response or just send all four files (about) 6.5 meg at one mailing. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:06:53 -0600 Subject: [vintageHO] need direction/diagram for kit I recently got a Northeastern HO winged B&M wood snow-plow semi-kit at a swap meet. It is partly built and has all the important parts including the embossed foil plow metal. The builder stopped construction before applying the plow and the kit is missing it's instructions. I've hunted through the known web sources for the Ambroid/NorthEaster n plans, but there are only the plans for that other snow-plow kit they made. Does anyone have the directions and diagrams filed away that could send me a scan of them??? Thanks, Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live Click here

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7917	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/17/2008
Subject: Re: need direction/diagram for kit

Many thanks  Vic, Please just send them to my email address. I'm looking forward to finishing this swap meet kit. One of these plows was one of my first kits when I got into the hobby in the late 60's Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA On Nov 16, 2008, at 8:54 PM, Victor Bitleris wrote: Hi Mike, I have scans already.  I will be very happy to send them.  There are 4 files, about 6.5 total.  Basically 2 sides  of a sheet.  Just reply to verify that I should send them to mwbauers55@... and if I should send 2 files, wait for your response or just send all four files (about) 6.5 meg at one mailing. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:06:53 -0600 Subject: [vintageHO] need direction/diagram for kit I recently got a Northeastern HO winged B&M wood snow-plow semi-kit at  a swap meet.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7918	From: rcjge	Date: 11/17/2008
Subject: Re: need direction/diagram for kit

Hi Vic: Did you get my email request for a copy of these plans? Perhaps Mike could forward them to me? Thanks, Gareth --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > I have scans already. I will be very happy to send them. There are 4 files, about 6.5 total. Basically 2 sides of a sheet. Just reply to verify that I should send them to mwbauers55@... and if I should send 2 files, wait for your response or just send all four files (about) 6.5 meg at one mailing. > Regards, Vic Bitleris > Raleigh, NC > > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: mwbauers55@... > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:06:53 -0600 > Subject: [vintageHO] need direction/diagram for kit > I recently got a Northeastern HO winged B&M wood snow-plow semi-kit at > > a swap meet. > > > > It is partly built and has all the important parts including the > > embossed foil plow metal. > > > > The builder stopped construction before applying the plow and the kit > > is missing it's instructions. I've hunted through the known web > > sources for the Ambroid/NorthEastern plans, but there are only the > > plans for that other snow-plow kit they made. > > > > Does anyone have the directions and diagrams filed away that could > > send me a scan of them??? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Best to Ya, > > Mike Bauers > > Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7919	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/19/2008
Subject: new project

Since I finally have my train room in order and caught up on major projects for now I decided to try to repair something that has bothered me for a while. Years ago I had bought a couple of the first run Bachman steam engines. This was before vintage collecting took over entirely. Back then I bought things that interested me. These Bachman steam engines (before the Spectrum) had some nice paint jobs like the N&W "J", GS-4 Daylight, and the UP 4-8-4 Northern. However the mechanical end left a lot to be desired. Since pick up was on both sides of the engine only it required a 3 piece axle that had an insulater like plastic in the middle. This 3 piece assembly was "glued" together. What ever was used dried out and today you find most of these engine drivers a mess and engine not able to run.              I had originally tried to re quarter the drivers and drill a fine hole through the middle plastic part into the metal axle of the drivers. I then inserted a piece of wire in the hole to stop the drivers from shifting. This worked fairly well except the diameter of the metal axle on the driver not very large and hard to drill creating a problem with the plastic piece.           Since I had so much luck using the blue permatex thread locker on my old Athearn 0-6-0, I am going to try that route on these Bachman drivers. It seems that the plastic they used cannot be "glued" and hold. If this works on the drivers I intend to do something with the main drive gear. It has to be insulated type material so I can't use brass. Must be fiber ,plastic,etc. This main drive gear on the axle is very narrow (I can fit something a little wider). I would like to find something that has a 9/16" OD and 24 teeth. Can any one help or tell me where I might get something. Athearn    ???           Also any one having a old, used, damaged 4-8-4 drive from one of these Bachman engines (either the Northern and/or the "J' type) that doesn't work I could use the parts to work with till I get something to work right.          Although these engines were basically cheap you use to be able to get parts from Bachman but they want to sell you a whole set of drivers which only would have they same problem. And the time I will put into this is for my knowledge.                                                                                Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7920	From: John Barlow	Date: 11/19/2008
Subject: Re: Acquiring a Golden Oldie...Need an Info Source

Recently I located and bought a Bachmann Reading I10sa 2-8-0, structurally distinct from their new runs of Bachmann 2-8-0's several decades later. Lubbing it needs, but I may have some other things in mind to restore and improve upon its performance.   Does anyone have the diagrams or exploding parts drawings from one of these locos? This one did not have them with it.   John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7921	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 11/19/2008
Subject: Re: new project

Hi Jim,   You would be better off using an English drive for it, I know they are pricey, but they are Bowser products.........:o)   Gary W   Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:53:03 PM Subject: [vintageHO] new project                Since I finally have my train room in order and caught up on major projects for now I decided to try to repair something that has bothered me for a while. Years ago I had bought a couple of the first run Bachman steam engines. This was before vintage collecting took over entirely. Back then I bought things that interested me. These Bachman steam engines (before the Spectrum) had some nice paint jobs like the N&W "J", GS-4 Daylight, and the UP 4-8-4 Northern. However the mechanical end left a lot to be desired. Since pick up was on both sides of the engine only it required a 3 piece axle that had an insulater like plastic in the middle. This 3 piece assembly was "glued" together. What ever was used dried out and today you find most of these engine drivers a mess and engine not able to run.              I had originally tried to re quarter the drivers and drill a fine hole through the middle plastic part into the metal axle of the drivers. I then inserted a piece of wire in the hole to stop the drivers from shifting. This worked fairly well except the diameter of the metal axle on the driver not very large and hard to drill creating a problem with the plastic piece.           Since I had so much luck using the blue permatex thread locker on my old Athearn 0-6-0, I am going to try that route on these Bachman drivers. It seems that the plastic they used cannot be "glued" and hold. If this works on the drivers I intend to do something with the main drive gear. It has to be insulated type material so I can't use brass. Must be fiber ,plastic,etc. This main drive gear on the axle is very narrow (I can fit something a little wider). I would like to find something that has a 9/16" OD and 24 teeth. Can any one help or tell me where I might get something. Athearn    ???           Also any one having a old, used, damaged 4-8-4 drive from one of these Bachman engines (either the Northern and/or the "J' type) that doesn't work I could use the parts to work with till I get something to work right.          Although these engines were basically cheap you use to be able to get parts from Bachman but they want to sell you a whole set of drivers which only would have they same problem. And the time I will put into this is for my knowledge.                                                                                Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7922	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/20/2008
Subject: I need a URL

I'm looking for that  site that is selling the new runs of Binkley/RedBall kit parts and I'm just not finding it with my usual methods . Can someone please point me to the place? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7923	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 11/20/2008
Subject: Re: I need a URL

Try Bitter Creek Models  http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/index.html   Roger Aultman         ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:44 AM Subject: [vintageHO] I need a URL I'm looking for that  site that is selling the new runs of Binkley/RedBall kit parts and I'm just not finding it with my usual methods . Can someone please point me to the place? Best to ya' Mike Bauers Milwaukee Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7924	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/20/2008
Subject: Re: I need a URL

MANY THANKS ROGER !!! Now, I've got a fresh bookmark with description in the system. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Nov 20, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Roger Aultman wrote: Try Bitter Creek Models  http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/index.html   Roger Aultman   ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers I'm looking for that  site that is selling the new runs of Binkley/RedBall kit parts and I'm just not finding it with my usual methods . Can someone please point me to the place?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7925	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 11/20/2008
Subject: Re: I need a URL

Glad to help Mike, I hope they bring back the Red Ball line.   Roger       Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I need a URL MANY THANKS ROGER !!! Now, I've got a fresh bookmark with description in the system. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Nov 20, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Roger Aultman wrote: Try Bitter Creek Models  http://www.bittercr eekmodels. com/index. html   Roger Aultman   ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers I'm looking for that  site that is selling the new runs of Binkley/RedBall kit parts and I'm just not finding it with my usual methods . Can someone please point me to the place?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7926	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/26/2008
Subject: Anybody know

Attachments : To Everyone,                     Enclosed are 3 pictures of a company called "The Bromo Line" (No not Bromo Seltzer). Everything in the design of the box looks a lot like Penn Line when they used there red and white boxes. There was a transformer that was bought seperate that is now "hiding'. It had an address which is now forgotten. Does any one know ANYTHING about this companyespecially what was being sold.                                                                                      Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7927	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/27/2008
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving.

Just want to wish all our members here in the US a Happy Thanksgiving, I hope you're all well and with your loved ones. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7928	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/27/2008
Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving.

Thanks Don. I too would like to wish everyone a happy thanksgiving. Myself, this is one of the few days I won't have to be out fixing peoples' computers, so am spending half of it working on my railroad, and half at my parents' house about 20 minutes away, dad and I will likely work on our Lionel railroad there (Of which I run mostly vintage equipment, including a lot of O Scale cars from the 30s through 50s refitted with tinplate trucks). Everyone have a happy thanksgiving! -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Just want to wish all our members here in the US a Happy Thanksgiving, I > hope you're all well and with your loved ones. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7929	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 11/27/2008
Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving.

A Happy Thanksgiving to everyone from me, too!   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) --- On Thu, 11/27/08, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: From: railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Happy Thanksgiving. To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 12:43 PM Thanks Don. I too would like to wish everyone a happy thanksgiving. Myself, this is one of the few days I won't have to be out fixing peoples' computers, so am spending half of it working on my railroad, and half at my parents' house about 20 minutes away, dad and I will likely work on our Lionel railroad there (Of which I run mostly vintage equipment, including a lot of O Scale cars from the 30s through 50s refitted with tinplate trucks). Everyone have a happy thanksgiving! -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > Just want to wish all our members here in the US a Happy Thanksgiving, I > hope you're all well and with your loved ones. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7930	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: need help

I am surprised that no one was able to give me any information about "The Bromo Line" that I sent pictures of and a little description. I had hoped someone had heard of it. I have to find the transformer that has an address on it. One of the items that disappeared in the move to the new house. I seem to remember a New York City address written on it but won't bet the house on it. Also because of the style and colors of the boxes (have two same size) I'm wondering if Bromo Line used/sold Penn Line items using there name.  I am also wondering if after Penn Line sold out did someone try to sell the overstock under a different name. These are only guesses. There might not even be a connection to Penn Line. Ask any friends who are not members if they no anything. I'm stumped                                                                                                 Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7931	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: found out about Bromo Line

Just want to pass on that some other train people got back to me about Bromo Line. It happens that a set was sold on Ebay   320312033237   It has a Mantua 0-4-0t engine and I'm no good at identifying freight cars. But this at least lets me know I was partly right that it was a company selling other companies items under Bromo Line. Now I have to find out about other possible sets. Like I said I have a transformer with Bromo Line on it. Learn something new about HO almost every day.                                                                                                                  Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7932	From: Graeme	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line

In message <BE6AF8975ADA4C69B83C99A13A25FC82@jheckard>, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> writes >      Just want to pass on that some other train people got back to me >about Bromo Line. It happens that a set was sold on Ebay   >320312033237   It has a Mantua 0-4-0t engine and I'm no good at >identifying freight cars. But this at least lets me know I was partly right >that it was a company selling other companies items under Bromo Line. >Now I have to find out about other possible sets. Like I said I have a >transformer with Bromo Line on it. Learn something new about HO almost >every day. Jim, there is another eBay completed auction which may interest you - item 130268574817, described as : FOR BID IS THE BROMOM LINE H-O GUAGE SCALE MODEL TRAIN SET. THE SET INCLUDES 5 METAL DIECAST TRUCK TRAILERS THAT RIDE ON FLAT BED TRAIN CARS. (TRAIN CARS INCLUDED AS WELL) . ALSO INCLUDES 3 ORIGINAL BOXES AND THE COVER BOX. THE TRAILER ADVERTISEMENTS ARE " HINDE & DAUCH CORRUGATED BOXES , AND MONON HOOSIER TIRE LINE TRAILER MADE RAIL SERVICE" . ONE OF THE TRAIN TRAILERS HAS A BROKEN TRUCK ( CAST METAL). THE TRAINS ARE FROM ATHEARN. NICE OLDER SET !! -- Graeme Eldred, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7933	From: Riverboy	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line

Hi All,   The trailers sound like Penn Line for sure in the described set .   --- On Fri, 11/28/08, Graeme <groups@...> wrote: From: Graeme <groups@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] found out about Bromo Line To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 4:06 PM In message <BE6AF8975ADA4C69B8 3C99A13A25FC82@ jheckard> , Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> writes >      Just want to pass on that some other train people got back to me >about Bromo Line. It happens that a set was sold on Ebay   >320312033237   It has a Mantua 0-4-0t engine and I'm no good at >identifying freight cars. But this at least lets me know I was partly right >that it was a company selling other companies items under Bromo Line. >Now I have to find out about other possible sets. Like I said I have a >transformer with Bromo Line on it. Learn something new about HO almost >every day. Jim, there is another eBay completed auction which may interest you - item 130268574817, described as : FOR BID IS THE BROMOM LINE H-O GUAGE SCALE MODEL TRAIN SET. THE SET INCLUDES 5 METAL DIECAST TRUCK TRAILERS THAT RIDE ON FLAT BED TRAIN CARS. (TRAIN CARS INCLUDED AS WELL) . ALSO INCLUDES 3 ORIGINAL BOXES AND THE COVER BOX. THE TRAILER ADVERTISEMENTS ARE " HINDE & DAUCH CORRUGATED BOXES , AND MONON HOOSIER TIRE LINE TRAILER MADE RAIL SERVICE" . ONE OF THE TRAIN TRAILERS HAS A BROKEN TRUCK ( CAST METAL). THE TRAINS ARE FROM ATHEARN. NICE OLDER SET !! -- Graeme Eldred, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7934	From: Riverboy	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line

Hi Again All,   Looking at the trailers they ARE 100% Penn Line .       --- On Fri, 11/28/08, Graeme <groups@...> wrote: From: Graeme <groups@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] found out about Bromo Line To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 4:06 PM In message <BE6AF8975ADA4C69B8 3C99A13A25FC82@ jheckard> , Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> writes >      Just want to pass on that some other train people got back to me >about Bromo Line. It happens that a set was sold on Ebay   >320312033237   It has a Mantua 0-4-0t engine and I'm no good at >identifying freight cars. But this at least lets me know I was partly right >that it was a company selling other companies items under Bromo Line. >Now I have to find out about other possible sets. Like I said I have a >transformer with Bromo Line on it. Learn something new about HO almost >every day. Jim, there is another eBay completed auction which may interest you - item 130268574817, described as : FOR BID IS THE BROMOM LINE H-O GUAGE SCALE MODEL TRAIN SET. THE SET INCLUDES 5 METAL DIECAST TRUCK TRAILERS THAT RIDE ON FLAT BED TRAIN CARS. (TRAIN CARS INCLUDED AS WELL) . ALSO INCLUDES 3 ORIGINAL BOXES AND THE COVER BOX. THE TRAILER ADVERTISEMENTS ARE " HINDE & DAUCH CORRUGATED BOXES , AND MONON HOOSIER TIRE LINE TRAILER MADE RAIL SERVICE" . ONE OF THE TRAIN TRAILERS HAS A BROKEN TRUCK ( CAST METAL). THE TRAINS ARE FROM ATHEARN. NICE OLDER SET !! -- Graeme Eldred, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7935	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/28/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line

Graeme                                                                                Thanks for the information. This box tells me they sold at least 3 different sets for different prices. Appreciate that I was able to find out something about this "company". I know more now then I did a couple of hours ago.                                                   Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Graeme To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] found out about Bromo Line In message <BE6AF8975ADA4C69B8 3C99A13A25FC82@ jheckard> , Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> writes >      Just want to pass on that some other train people got back to me >about Bromo Line. It happens that a set was sold on Ebay   >320312033237   It has a Mantua 0-4-0t engine and I'm no good at >identifying freight cars. But this at least lets me know I was partly right >that it was a company selling other companies items under Bromo Line. >Now I have to find out about other possible sets. Like I said I have a >transformer with Bromo Line on it. Learn something new about HO almost >every day. Jim, there is another eBay completed auction which may interest you - item 130268574817, described as : FOR BID IS THE BROMOM LINE H-O GUAGE SCALE MODEL TRAIN SET. THE SET INCLUDES 5 METAL DIECAST TRUCK TRAILERS THAT RIDE ON FLAT BED TRAIN CARS. (TRAIN CARS INCLUDED AS WELL) . ALSO INCLUDES 3 ORIGINAL BOXES AND THE COVER BOX. THE TRAILER ADVERTISEMENTS ARE " HINDE & DAUCH CORRUGATED BOXES , AND MONON HOOSIER TIRE LINE TRAILER MADE RAIL SERVICE" . ONE OF THE TRAIN TRAILERS HAS A BROKEN TRUCK ( CAST METAL). THE TRAINS ARE FROM ATHEARN. NICE OLDER SET !! -- Graeme Eldred, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7936	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line

----- Original Message ----- From: "Graeme" <groups@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] found out about Bromo Line In message <BE6AF8975ADA4C69B83C99A13A25FC82@jheckard>, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> writes > Just want to pass on that some other train people got back to me >about Bromo Line. It happens that a set was sold on Ebay >320312033237 It has a Mantua 0-4-0t engine and I'm no good at >identifying freight cars. But this at least lets me know I was partly right >that it was a company selling other companies items under Bromo Line. >Now I have to find out about other possible sets. Like I said I have a >transformer with Bromo Line on it. Learn something new about HO almost >every day. .Jim, there is another eBay completed auction which may interest you - .i.tem 130268574817, described as : .FOR BID IS THE BROMOM LINE H-O GUAGE SCALE MODEL TRAIN SET. THE SET .INCLUDES 5 METAL DIECAST TRUCK TRAILERS THAT RIDE ON FLAT BED TRAIN .\\\\ CARS. (TRAIN CARS INCLUDED AS WELL) . ALSO INCLUDES 3 ORIGINAL BOXES AND THE COVER BOX. THE TRAILER ADVERTISEMENTS ARE " HINDE & DAUCH CORRUGATED BOXES , AND MONON HOOSIER TIRE LINE TRAILER MADE RAIL SERVICE" . ONE OF THE TRAIN TRAILERS HAS A BROKEN TRUCK ( CAST METAL). THE TRAINS ARE FROM ATHEARN. NICE OLDER SET !! -- Graeme Eldred, Scotland __________________________________________________________________________________________________ Except, without looking at the auction, the description of the "truck trailers..on flatbed train cars" describes PENN LINE to a "T", not Athearn. Which does bring up a point that's bothered me for 50 years. Those in the know, Penn Line DID buy F-7 and "GP-9" (actually GP-7) shells from Athearn, didn't they? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7937	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: found out about Bromo Line

@Don's message: I have wondered this too about Penn Line buying Athearn shells or tooling 'clones'. I bought a box of Penn Line shells (Coaches and F units) on eBay last winter, and the shells only needed the pilot coupler hole carved out a little to fit a Athearn frame perfectly. Though most of the diesels were missing steps, the couple that did had steps different from the Athearn steps. Really, though the Penn Line steps were smaller, I liked them better as the Athearn Blomberg 'B' truck would not catch on them that way, as can happen using Athearn on 18" radius curve sometimes. -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Graeme" <groups@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 3:06 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] found out about Bromo Line > > > In message <BE6AF8975ADA4C69B83C99A13A25FC82@jheckard>, Jim Heckard > <jimheck@...> writes > > Just want to pass on that some other train people got back to me > >about Bromo Line. It happens that a set was sold on Ebay > >320312033237 It has a Mantua 0-4-0t engine and I'm no good at > >identifying freight cars. But this at least lets me know I was partly right > >that it was a company selling other companies items under Bromo Line. > >Now I have to find out about other possible sets. Like I said I have a > >transformer with Bromo Line on it. Learn something new about HO almost > >every day. > > .Jim, there is another eBay completed auction which may interest you - > .i.tem 130268574817, described as : > > .FOR BID IS THE BROMOM LINE H-O GUAGE SCALE MODEL TRAIN SET. THE SET > .INCLUDES 5 METAL DIECAST TRUCK TRAILERS THAT RIDE ON FLAT BED TRAIN .\\\\ > CARS. (TRAIN CARS INCLUDED AS WELL) . ALSO INCLUDES 3 ORIGINAL BOXES AND > THE COVER BOX. THE TRAILER ADVERTISEMENTS ARE " HINDE & DAUCH CORRUGATED > BOXES , AND MONON HOOSIER TIRE LINE TRAILER MADE RAIL SERVICE" . ONE OF > THE TRAIN TRAILERS HAS A BROKEN TRUCK ( CAST METAL). THE TRAINS ARE FROM > ATHEARN. NICE OLDER SET !! > -- > Graeme Eldred, Scotland > __________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Except, without looking at the auction, the description of the "truck > trailers..on flatbed train cars" describes PENN LINE to a "T", not Athearn. > > Which does bring up a point that's bothered me for 50 years. Those in the > know, Penn Line DID buy F-7 and "GP-9" (actually GP-7) shells from Athearn, > didn't they? > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7938	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Bromo, Penn Line, Athearn

Hi,             Trying to take care of 3 birds with one stone.                    First  Bromo Line.       Thanks to all who offered help. I think it looks like Bromo Line offered items from other companies. Since I don't collect freight cars I'm not sure whose they are but at least I know more. I wonder if it was a coincidence that I was looking for information about them and 2 items were just sold on eBay as I never heard or seen anything before.            Athearn F-7 and GP-9 (GP-7 ) bodies were used by Penn Line. Everything I know or have been told is that Penn Line originally used the Athearn F unit bodies and the GP body. After a while, time unknown, Penn Line started to sell F-7 A&B units made under their name (Don't know who actually made them). The thing that was most notably ,as far as differences and pointed out already, were the steps. Penn Line F unit steps were shorter in length the Athearn. Later you will see the Penn Line engines (with the shorter steps) being sold under the Varney name after Penn Line went under. Gordon Varney had been bought out by Sol Kramer and the Varney name was used till it went to Lifelike ( A very good narrative of the transition of Varney and Penn Line to Sol Kramer and Lew English/Bowser is in the front of Greenberg's Varney HO Guide by D. Spanagel and also the front of the Lew English/Bowser catalog. Very easy to mix this history all up)           As for the Athearn GP bodies Penn Line used them start to finish.                                                                                       Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7939	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Attachments :           I'm sending three pictures which might help a little with the differences of Athearn F7 bodies (used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own F7 bodies.           The 1st picture has an Athearn body on left (that was used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own later F7 on the right. Note the difference in size and style of ladders.           The 2nd picture shows the first or original Penn Line F7 type drive that used with the Athearn body. One truck driven from a coil spring drive shaft.            The 3rd picture is Penn Lines own F7 body using Penn Lines second drive. This is an 8 wheel drive with the power truck gear to gear and a universal to the front geared power truck.            While the information above was about originals remember they were easy to switch and many were mixed and matched so you might have one different then above. Also remember there were numerous ownership changes taking place and previous stock was being used. The Penn Line F7 's were sold under the Varney name after Sol Kramer took Varney over. He then took it a step further and started using them in his Lifelike brand.            This same situation took place with Penn Line plastic passenger cars (which originally were some John English / HObbyline products) that were bought and sold by Varney after Penn Line went out of business and again Sol Kramer changed them to Lifelike. Penn Line made and sold the most types of these plastic streamlined and standard passenger cars.             As for the GP9 (actually 7) Athearn bodies, Penn Line used them to the end.            Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue. The history is confusing enough. See anything you don't agree with or I have not explained better let me know.                                                                                                           Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7940	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

There was an intermediate drive too. I knew about the modified shell with the short steps. My first Penn Line was the drive you show in the second picture, a year later (ca. 1961 or so) I bought another one that had the second shell. It had no frame, the trucks were mounted to brass "brackets" that had tabs that snapped into those smaller holes in the steps to hold the trucks in. Pull any load longer than three cars and the stress sheared the steps off and the locomotive was scrap. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 I'm sending three pictures which might help a little with the differences of Athearn F7 bodies (used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own F7 bodies. The 1st picture has an Athearn body on left (that was used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own later F7 on the right. Note the difference in size and style of ladders. The 2nd picture shows the first or original Penn Line F7 type drive that used with the Athearn body. One truck driven from a coil spring drive shaft. The 3rd picture is Penn Lines own F7 body using Penn Lines second drive. This is an 8 wheel drive with the power truck gear to gear and a universal to the front geared power truck. While the information above was about originals remember they were easy to switch and many were mixed and matched so you might have one different then above. Also remember there were numerous ownership changes taking place and previous stock was being used. The Penn Line F7 's were sold under the Varney name after Sol Kramer took Varney over. He then took it a step further and started using them in his Lifelike brand. This same situation took place with Penn Line plastic passenger cars (which originally were some John English / HObbyline products) that were bought and sold by Varney after Penn Line went out of business and again Sol Kramer changed them to Lifelike. Penn Line made and sold the most types of these plastic streamlined and standard passenger cars. As for the GP9 (actually 7) Athearn bodies, Penn Line used them to the end. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue. The history is confusing enough. See anything you don't agree with or I have not explained better let me know. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7941	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Hi Don,                 I have never seen the "Penn Line' set up you describe in your Email. I would like to have seen that set up with no frame and the trucks were mounted to brass brackets attached to the steps. Are you sure it wasn't some type of modification using a Penn Line shell. Sorry there are things I don't know about but have never seen or read of a Penn Line set up like this or even described in literature (catalogs,write ups,assembly sheets. etc.). If you have some paper on this or anyone else knows of this please share it.         I have a friend who has to have the largest Penn Line collection I know of. He lives in Boyertown home of Penn Line and knew the owners personally. A lot of people thought he was a fourth owner he was that close. I have to ask him if he ever heard of this set up. I have to find out.                     Thanks for the comments. Appreciated        Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 There was an intermediate drive too. I knew about the modified shell with the short steps. My first Penn Line was the drive you show in the second picture, a year later (ca. 1961 or so) I bought another one that had the second shell. It had no frame, the trucks were mounted to brass "brackets" that had tabs that snapped into those smaller holes in the steps to hold the trucks in. Pull any load longer than three cars and the stress sheared the steps off and the locomotive was scrap. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 I'm sending three pictures which might help a little with the differences of Athearn F7 bodies (used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own F7 bodies. The 1st picture has an Athearn body on left (that was used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own later F7 on the right. Note the difference in size and style of ladders. The 2nd picture shows the first or original Penn Line F7 type drive that used with the Athearn body. One truck driven from a coil spring drive shaft. The 3rd picture is Penn Lines own F7 body using Penn Lines second drive. This is an 8 wheel drive with the power truck gear to gear and a universal to the front geared power truck. While the information above was about originals remember they were easy to switch and many were mixed and matched so you might have one different then above. Also remember there were numerous ownership changes taking place and previous stock was being used. The Penn Line F7 's were sold under the Varney name after Sol Kramer took Varney over. He then took it a step further and started using them in his Lifelike brand. This same situation took place with Penn Line plastic passenger cars (which originally were some John English / HObbyline products) that were bought and sold by Varney after Penn Line went out of business and again Sol Kramer changed them to Lifelike. Penn Line made and sold the most types of these plastic streamlined and standard passenger cars. As for the GP9 (actually 7) Athearn bodies, Penn Line used them to the end. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue. The history is confusing enough. See anything you don't agree with or I have not explained better let me know. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7942	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Knapp Passenger Cars

Unless my old eyes deceive me (99% sure) there are three old,pre war extruded aluminum passenger cars (coaches) and they also have the original brass trucks with the old odd Knapp Talgo type non working couplers on most of them. Very rare,very hard to find. If anyone interested go to 360111733468     Passenger Cars 3 Old All Metal with Brass trucks                                                                                                        Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7943	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Jim, I have that one also.  I will take a photo if I can find it.  The weight came from a casting of the fuel tank and another casting that slipped in first, before the universal was applied, then the fuel tank casting snapped into the body slots.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:44 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7   Hi Don,                 I have never seen the "Penn Line' set up you describe in your Email. I would like to have seen that set up with no frame and the trucks were mounted to brass brackets attached to the steps. Are you sure it wasn't some type of modification using a Penn Line shell. Sorry there are things I don't know about but have never seen or read of a Penn Line set up like this or even described in literature (catalogs,write ups,assembly sheets. etc.). If you have some paper on this or anyone else knows of this please share it.         I have a friend who has to have the largest Penn Line collection I know of. He lives in Boyertown home of Penn Line and knew the owners personally. A lot of people thought he was a fourth owner he was that close. I have to ask him if he ever heard of this set up. I have to find out.                     Thanks for the comments. Appreciated        Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7   There was an intermediate drive too. I knew about the modified shell with the short steps. My first Penn Line was the drive you show in the second picture, a year later (ca. 1961 or so) I bought another one that had the second shell. It had no frame, the trucks were mounted to brass "brackets" that had tabs that snapped into those smaller holes in the steps to hold the trucks in. Pull any load longer than three cars and the stress sheared the steps off and the locomotive was scrap. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 I'm sending three pictures which might help a little with the differences of Athearn F7 bodies (used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own F7 bodies. The 1st picture has an Athearn body on left (that was used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own later F7 on the right. Note the difference in size and style of ladders. The 2nd picture shows the first or original Penn Line F7 type drive that used with the Athearn body. One truck driven from a coil spring drive shaft. The 3rd picture is Penn Lines own F7 body using Penn Lines second drive. This is an 8 wheel drive with the power truck gear to gear and a universal to the front geared power truck. While the information above was about originals remember they were easy to switch and many were mixed and matched so you might have one different then above. Also remember there were numerous ownership changes taking place and previous stock was being used. The Penn Line F7 's were sold under the Varney name after Sol Kramer took Varney over. He then took it a step further and started using them in his Lifelike brand. This same situation took place with Penn Line plastic passenger cars (which originally were some John English / HObbyline products) that were bought and sold by Varney after Penn Line went out of business and again Sol Kramer changed them to Lifelike. Penn Line made and sold the most types of these plastic streamlined and standard passenger cars. As for the GP9 (actually 7) Athearn bodies, Penn Line used them to the end. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue. The history is confusing enough. See anything you don't agree with or I have not explained better let me know. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7944	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

I can't easily produce it. But I'm certain I have a set aside F-7A with this intermediate drive as well as one or two sets of the power trucks in the misc parts boxes. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:44 PM, Jim Heckard wrote: Hi Don,                 I have never seen the "Penn Line' set up you describe in your Email. I would like to have seen that set up with no frame and the trucks were mounted to brass brackets attached to the steps. Are you sure it wasn't some type of modification using a Penn Line shell. Sorry there are things I don't know about but have never seen or read of a Penn Line set up like this or even described in literature (catalogs,write ups,assembly sheets. etc.). If you have some paper on this or anyone else knows of this please share it.         I have a friend who has to have the largest Penn Line collection I know of. He lives in Boyertown home of Penn Line and knew the owners personally. A lot of people thought he was a fourth owner he was that close. I have to ask him if he ever heard of this set up. I have to find out.                     Thanks for the comments. Appreciated        Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann There was an intermediate drive too. I knew about the modified shell with the short steps. My first Penn Line was the drive you show in the second picture, a year later (ca. 1961 or so) I bought another one that had the second shell. It had no frame, the trucks were mounted to brass "brackets" that had tabs that snapped into those smaller holes in the steps to hold the trucks in. Pull any load longer than three cars and the stress sheared the steps off and the locomotive was scrap. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard"  I'm sending three pictures which might help a little with the differences of Athearn F7 bodies (used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own F7 bodies. The 1st picture has an Athearn body on left (that was used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own later F7 on the right. Note the difference in size and style of ladders. The 2nd picture shows the first or original Penn Line F7 type drive that used with the Athearn body. One truck driven from a coil spring drive shaft. The 3rd picture is Penn Lines own F7 body using Penn Lines second drive. This is an 8 wheel drive with the power truck gear to gear and a universal to the front geared power truck. While the information above was about originals remember they were easy to switch and many were mixed and matched so you might have one different then above. Also remember there were numerous ownership changes taking place and previous stock was being used. The Penn Line F7 's were sold under the Varney name after Sol Kramer took Varney over. He then took it a step further and started using them in his Lifelike brand. This same situation took place with Penn Line plastic passenger cars (which originally were some John English / HObbyline products) that were bought and sold by Varney after Penn Line went out of business and again Sol Kramer changed them to Lifelike. Penn Line made and sold the most types of these plastic streamlined and standard passenger cars. As for the GP9 (actually 7) Athearn bodies, Penn Line used them to the end. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue. The history is confusing enough. See anything you don't agree with or I have not explained better let me know. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7945	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/29/2008
Subject: Penn Line version

My friend Bill M (my Penn Line expert) said that Don's description is EXACTLY right. Thanks for alerting me about this variation. To Chuck if you can get me the picture it would be appreciated.              It just goes to show that there is always something to learn and if it wasn't for groups like this the information could not get shared. I have learned that you "Never Say Never" when it concerns HO history. In the last couple of days I have learned about this Penn Line drive version and about "Bromo Line" because of the members              Thanks to all who responded on this .                                                Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7946	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

I bought it new at the Hobby Shop, so I know it wasn't a modification. This was just before Penn-Line's demise in the slot-car craze, so they were probably in production only a year or two, and because they were so flimsy, I'd guess not many survived. I know mine didn't. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 Hi Don, I have never seen the "Penn Line' set up you describe in your Email. I would like to have seen that set up with no frame and the trucks were mounted to brass brackets attached to the steps. Are you sure it wasn't some type of modification using a Penn Line shell. Sorry there are things I don't know about but have never seen or read of a Penn Line set up like this or even described in literature (catalogs,write ups,assembly sheets. etc.). If you have some paper on this or anyone else knows of this please share it. I have a friend who has to have the largest Penn Line collection I know of. He lives in Boyertown home of Penn Line and knew the owners personally. A lot of people thought he was a fourth owner he was that close. I have to ask him if he ever heard of this set up. I have to find out. Thanks for the comments. Appreciated Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 There was an intermediate drive too. I knew about the modified shell with the short steps. My first Penn Line was the drive you show in the second picture, a year later (ca. 1961 or so) I bought another one that had the second shell. It had no frame, the trucks were mounted to brass "brackets" that had tabs that snapped into those smaller holes in the steps to hold the trucks in. Pull any load longer than three cars and the stress sheared the steps off and the locomotive was scrap. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 I'm sending three pictures which might help a little with the differences of Athearn F7 bodies (used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own F7 bodies. The 1st picture has an Athearn body on left (that was used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own later F7 on the right. Note the difference in size and style of ladders. The 2nd picture shows the first or original Penn Line F7 type drive that used with the Athearn body. One truck driven from a coil spring drive shaft. The 3rd picture is Penn Lines own F7 body using Penn Lines second drive. This is an 8 wheel drive with the power truck gear to gear and a universal to the front geared power truck. While the information above was about originals remember they were easy to switch and many were mixed and matched so you might have one different then above. Also remember there were numerous ownership changes taking place and previous stock was being used. The Penn Line F7 's were sold under the Varney name after Sol Kramer took Varney over. He then took it a step further and started using them in his Lifelike brand. This same situation took place with Penn Line plastic passenger cars (which originally were some John English / HObbyline products) that were bought and sold by Varney after Penn Line went out of business and again Sol Kramer changed them to Lifelike. Penn Line made and sold the most types of these plastic streamlined and standard passenger cars. As for the GP9 (actually 7) Athearn bodies, Penn Line used them to the end. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue. The history is confusing enough. See anything you don't agree with or I have not explained better let me know. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7947	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Don,Mike                  Really appreciate the mention about the odd (to me) drive for Penn Line F units. I would love to get something ( a picture of one, keep looking Chuck) or paper from one. It's really hard to keep track of everything out there. This gives me something else to follow up on and research.                  I have to wonder who came up with what seems to be a terrible design. I'm going to have to look for one to add to my collection.                                                                       Jim H   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 5:08 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 I bought it new at the Hobby Shop, so I know it wasn't a modification. This was just before Penn-Line's demise in the slot-car craze, so they were probably in production only a year or two, and because they were so flimsy, I'd guess not many survived. I know mine didn't. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 Hi Don, I have never seen the "Penn Line' set up you describe in your Email. I would like to have seen that set up with no frame and the trucks were mounted to brass brackets attached to the steps. Are you sure it wasn't some type of modification using a Penn Line shell. Sorry there are things I don't know about but have never seen or read of a Penn Line set up like this or even described in literature (catalogs,write ups,assembly sheets. etc.). If you have some paper on this or anyone else knows of this please share it. I have a friend who has to have the largest Penn Line collection I know of. He lives in Boyertown home of Penn Line and knew the owners personally. A lot of people thought he was a fourth owner he was that close. I have to ask him if he ever heard of this set up. I have to find out. Thanks for the comments. Appreciated Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 There was an intermediate drive too. I knew about the modified shell with the short steps. My first Penn Line was the drive you show in the second picture, a year later (ca. 1961 or so) I bought another one that had the second shell. It had no frame, the trucks were mounted to brass "brackets" that had tabs that snapped into those smaller holes in the steps to hold the trucks in. Pull any load longer than three cars and the stress sheared the steps off and the locomotive was scrap. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 I'm sending three pictures which might help a little with the differences of Athearn F7 bodies (used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own F7 bodies. The 1st picture has an Athearn body on left (that was used by Penn Line) vs Penn Line's own later F7 on the right. Note the difference in size and style of ladders. The 2nd picture shows the first or original Penn Line F7 type drive that used with the Athearn body. One truck driven from a coil spring drive shaft. The 3rd picture is Penn Lines own F7 body using Penn Lines second drive. This is an 8 wheel drive with the power truck gear to gear and a universal to the front geared power truck. While the information above was about originals remember they were easy to switch and many were mixed and matched so you might have one different then above. Also remember there were numerous ownership changes taking place and previous stock was being used. The Penn Line F7 's were sold under the Varney name after Sol Kramer took Varney over. He then took it a step further and started using them in his Lifelike brand. This same situation took place with Penn Line plastic passenger cars (which originally were some John English / HObbyline products) that were bought and sold by Varney after Penn Line went out of business and again Sol Kramer changed them to Lifelike. Penn Line made and sold the most types of these plastic streamlined and standard passenger cars. As for the GP9 (actually 7) Athearn bodies, Penn Line used them to the end. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue. The history is confusing enough. See anything you don't agree with or I have not explained better let me know. Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7948	From: Reinaldo Astorino	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Kadee coupler

Fellows, Is it correct to change the original coupler to the Kadee #5 coupler? I have some brazilian vintage cars made by Atma (a company that do not exist anymore) and I would like to use them with others cars. Thanks for your opinions. R.Astorino

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7949	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Re: Kadee coupler

It is correct to do whatever works for you. I have dozens of "vintage" cars that came with Mantua, dummy, and "NMRA" couplers, all converted to Kadee couplers. If you think that "originality" might be important some day, you can put the old coupler in an envelope marked with the original car name, so that it can be "restored" eventually. Mike Reinaldo Astorino wrote: > > > Fellows, > > Is it correct to change the original coupler to the Kadee #5 coupler? > I have some brazilian vintage cars made by Atma (a company that do not > exist anymore) and I would like to use them with others cars. > Thanks for your opinions. > R.Astorino

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7950	From: PBowers	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: Interlocking plant parts

Back a few years ago....about 1959, Kemtron (or possibly Cal-Scale) produced brass parts for the plumbing for a mechanical interlocking tower. These castings were later picked up and produced, or at least sold by Bowser Has anyone got an idea if they still stock these parts or where a person might find them today Peter Peter Bowers --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 081129-0, 29/11/2008 Tested on: 30/11/2008 1:17:25 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7951	From: man.ukin	Date: 11/30/2008
Subject: so many questions about other auction places

hi, because so many people asked, here i a other auction place, a free auction place, with less fees than ebay, you can take paypal, google checkout etc. go on the link so you come to ebid "http://www.clixGalore.com/EmailLead.aspx?BID=28652&AfID=184334&AdID=4199" regards jens

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7952	From: magnoliastation	Date: 12/1/2008
Subject: Regarding Bromo Lines

eBay and other auction sites have offered over the years a few train sets marked "Bromo Lines." They all seem to be contained in master boxes with card-stock inserts and lift-off lids which sport the "Bromo Lines" logo in a field of diagonal red and white stripes like a barber pole. Most recently, eBay offered a Bromo master box containing some Penn- Line TOFC cars, sans motive power. I believe this is just the case of someone saving the "Bromo" master box as a convenient means of storing that collector/operator's Penn Line TOFC car fleet. Other "Bromo" sets offered in the past seeem to all possess inserts similar to those offered by Mantua/Tyco in their yellow-box train set offerings of 1959-61. These are generally white card-stock inserts with perfed edges sporting die-cut openings for specific cars and an open card-stock box for the motive power. A Bromo set referred by another group member was offered in an eBay auction in October, 2008 as: "Vintage HO Guage (sic) SCALE TRAIN SET - BROMO LINE 1950's." It is typical of their offerings, sporting a Mantua/Tyco Booster in GN livery, nested in a corner insert. What is atypical are the freight cars: early Athearn offerings in individual die-cut slots. There is an Athearn caboose in Wabash livery (rather strange in light of the GN engine), the ubiquitous Boston and Maine Athearn hopper, DrG cattle car, Athearn Seaboard flat with boat load and Athearn 40 ft. box car in Western Pacific paint, sporting second- generation doors and door guides. I believe this set to be as originally-sold. Bromo's offering commonly have Mantua/Tyco motive power. Other Bromo sets offered have off-the-shelf Tyco freight cars and cabeese as well. Other sets run behind Tyco's omnipresent 0-4- 0 "Shifter" and tender. A few years back a "deluxe" Bromo set was sold with a line-up of cars similar to Tyco's "Mammoth of the Rails" (minus value-added cars like the operating hopper, derrick car, clearance car and animated box car offered in the Tyco-marketed sets). The big Tyco freight sets were Mikado-powered. The big "Bromo Lines" set ran behind a rather rare bird: the Mantua/Tyco Pacific in C&O freight livery. With those natty "barber-pole" decorated boxes it is tempting to suppose there is a Penn Line connection to Bromo Lines. I suspect, however, that Bromo is more a poor cousin to other "put-together" set distributors like HOTCO, Bronco, Champ and Herkimer (Herkimer's all- Athearn freight sets at least). I have a set in Bromo master box with a Tyco shifter nested in its proper insert. The cars and caboose are all "Crown" offerings, Mantua's clever little attempt to market Athearn rip-offs from Hong Kong. Since the insert for the cars is gone I can't be certain this is an original set and am a bit skeptical. Near as I can tell Mantua didn't offer the "Crown" cars to wholesalers (E&H for example) until July/August of 1964. This seems a bit later than the era of the "Bromo" sets. I'd like to hear more about the little mystery. Steve S. Magnolia Academy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7953	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/1/2008
Subject: New addition

Attachments :                  I'm sending a copy of an add from a July 1959 (MR or RMC magazine,not sure which) of a Sims Power Chassis to be used in the static HObbyline Berkshire kit. The reason is it is part of my latest addition to my collection. If you go to  260321079814    Rare HObbyline NKP Berkshire AND Sims motorizing unit.  The HObbyline static kit doesn't fall under rare to me, it's the mint Sims power chassis that does.It was made in Canada and was specifically made to power the HObbyline Berk. A lot of people think this HObbyline kit is very prototypical looking and well detailed for for a plastic item when made in the late 50's.       While I knew about this conversion kit I had only ever seen one that was done and since this power unit looks mint it interested me. I paid a little more then I wanted to as there were other bidders but since the model kit and the power unit look new I went for it.                                                                        Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7954	From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition

Somewhere, in an old magazine... I have seen the review of this drive. I remember that there was also included some suggestions for making your own lead weight for the boiler if you did not want to purchase the one that is not included with the drive. ( Makes no sense to me... ) I don't consider the Hobbyline Berks all that rare either... They seem to pop up for sale at shows and on ebay quite frequently. I have one in a short box... packed very nicely, very compact... as opposed to the longer box that the kit normally came in, as far as I have seen, anyway. I was going to power it with the drive from a Rivarossi Berkshire, ( Purchased battered and bruised but still running at a show... ) as when compared side by side... the two locos are constructed similarly, and seem to share almost identical dimensions. This project has been put away for many years, as it is very low on the project list. Stephen.   Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holiday Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7955	From: Bill Wright	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Time to build a tugboat kit

I have been preparing for this for a long time. I have two tugboat kits and my layout is to the point where I need to build one. I pulled the kits out and took a look at them. One is a Revell Harbor Tug "Taurus", vintage 1973. The other is a Lindberg, Diesel Tug, vintage 1993. The Lindberg is labeled 1/82 scale and indicates it is 14" long. The box is still sealed in plastic. So it is 6% oversized for HO. The Revell does not indicate scale. The instructions says the prototype was 81.1 feet long. The hull measures 8-1/2" long. That is 24% undersized. The tug will be sitting beside a 450 scale foot long ore boat on my layout. Neither model are waterline models, but have full hulls. My questions: Does anyone have experience building either of these models? Does one of these go together better than the other? Which model looks best when built? Should I forget these two and buy the built-up Walthers model that is now sale on eBay? It is 13" long, so 8% smaller than the Lindberg kit. Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7956	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

I built the Revell tug a LONG time ago and still have it sitting around somewhere. I cut the hull to make it a waterline model, but never did anything with it. The size isn't very noticeable and doesn't "overwhelm" the railroad models. When you put HO size people on the boat, it looks about right. And it is, like all Revell models of the period, very nicely done. Mike Bill Wright wrote: > > > I have been preparing for this for a long time. I have two tugboat > kits and my layout is to the point where I need to build one. I pulled > the kits out and took a look at them. > > One is a Revell Harbor Tug "Taurus", vintage 1973. The other is a > Lindberg, Diesel Tug, vintage 1993. > > The Lindberg is labeled 1/82 scale and indicates it is 14" long. The > box is still sealed in plastic. So it is 6% oversized for HO. > > The Revell does not indicate scale. The instructions says the > prototype was 81.1 feet long. The hull measures 8-1/2" long. That is > 24% undersized. > > The tug will be sitting beside a 450 scale foot long ore boat on my > layout. > > Neither model are waterline models, but have full hulls. > > My questions: Does anyone have experience building either of these > models? > > Does one of these go together better than the other? > > Which model looks best when built? > > Should I forget these two and buy the built-up Walthers model that is > now sale on eBay? It is 13" long, so 8% smaller than the Lindberg kit. > > Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7957	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition

Jim,  I am interested in what the Sims chassis looks like.  I bought a half baked Hobbyline Berk kit that has an odd chassis that I have never seen before. I would like to find out if it is a Sims or something else. There are some photos of this project in this thread. http://2guyz.info/Forums/viewtopic/t=674.html --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] New addition To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 6:58 PM                  I'm sending a copy of an add from a July 1959 (MR or RMC magazine,not sure which) of a Sims Power Chassis to be used in the static HObbyline Berkshire kit. The reason is it is part of my latest addition to my collection. If you go to  260321079814    Rare HObbyline NKP Berkshire AND Sims motorizing unit.  The HObbyline static kit doesn't fall under rare to me, it's the mint Sims power chassis that does.It was made in Canada and was specifically made to power the HObbyline Berk. A lot of people think this HObbyline kit is very prototypical looking and well detailed for for a plastic item when made in the late 50's.       While I knew about this conversion kit I had only ever seen one that was done and since this power unit looks mint it interested me. I paid a little more then I wanted to as there were other bidders but since the model kit and the power unit look new I went for it.                                                                        Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7958	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: New addition

The Sims power chassis looked fine and worked very well under a weighted plastic HObbyline NKP 2-8-4. With some additions to make the model more prototypical (i.e. cast brass headlight, metal wheels etc.), the model could really come alive. However, some of the other soft lightweight styrene plastic parts of the locomotive could not withstand routine operations very long (lead, trailing, and tender trucks; drive rods and valve gear); and soon the locomotive had to be sidelined to the stationary duty for which it was originally designed in the first place. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7959	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition

I tend to agree. I took a look at my HObbyline 2-8-4 and determined back then that its only value was as a static display. So it ended up on the "dead line", along with other locomotives that weren't worth the trouble to try to fix up - Athearn 0-4-2s, pieces of a "Big Boy" whose origins I have forgotten, Hobbyline 0-4-0, and Mantua "Shifters". <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_14.html> I suppose, if I had known that they would become valuable some day, I would have kept them pristine in their original boxes. But who knew? Mike Denny Anspach wrote: > > > The Sims power chassis looked fine and worked very well under a > weighted plastic HObbyline NKP 2-8-4. With some additions to make the > model more prototypical (i.e. cast brass headlight, metal wheels > etc.), the model could really come alive. However, some of the other > soft lightweight styrene plastic parts of the locomotive could not > withstand routine operations very long (lead, trailing, and tender > trucks; drive rods and valve gear); and soon the locomotive had to be > sidelined to the stationary duty for which it was originally designed > in the first place. > > Denny > > Denny S. Anspach MD > Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7960	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition

I had one that I added handrails and some piping to--as a static display. I also took a Mantua Mikado and hacked all the details off the boiler so that it would fit inside the HObbyline loco--Ran well--even though the drivers were a bit undersized. As I remember, the original ones were in a bys similar to an Athearn passenger car and sold for $1.98. Then they used a larger box and sold for $A2.98--and eventually closed out at 98 cants. I bought several at that price and did a lot of bashing. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...> [vintageHO] Re:New addition >I tend to agree. I took a look at my HObbyline 2-8-4 and determined back >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7961	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition

Ray,      I will gladly share pictures of the Sims power chassis with you when it comes. Right now if you go into Ebay number   260321079814  You will see pictures the Hobbyline kit and Sims power chassis. There are two there that you can make larger.                                                                                                               Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Marinaccio To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New addition Jim,  I am interested in what the Sims chassis looks like.  I bought a half baked Hobbyline Berk kit that has an odd chassis that I have never seen before. I would like to find out if it is a Sims or something else. There are some photos of this project in this thread. http://2guyz. info/Forums/ viewtopic/ t=674.html --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> Subject: [vintageHO] New addition To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 6:58 PM                  I'm sending a copy of an add from a July 1959 (MR or RMC magazine,not sure which) of a Sims Power Chassis to be used in the static HObbyline Berkshire kit. The reason is it is part of my latest addition to my collection. If you go to  260321079814    Rare HObbyline NKP Berkshire AND Sims motorizing unit.  The HObbyline static kit doesn't fall under rare to me, it's the mint Sims power chassis that does.It was made in Canada and was specifically made to power the HObbyline Berk. A lot of people think this HObbyline kit is very prototypical looking and well detailed for for a plastic item when made in the late 50's.       While I knew about this conversion kit I had only ever seen one that was done and since this power unit looks mint it interested me. I paid a little more then I wanted to as there were other bidders but since the model kit and the power unit look new I went for it.                                                                        Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7962	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: New addition

Denny,Glenn and Mike,        I tend to agree that a plastic static kit should stay a plastic static kit. They are not made to hold up running constant.I didn't buy the items to run them. Since I only collect vintage items I don't even have plans to "build" these. They will enter the collection as what they are. HO items from the past. They were bought just to have the items and because they are new looking, even mint. I really think I am fortunate to find an unused Sims Power Chassis and happy to know it turns out to be from a Yahoo vintageho member                                                            Jim H   ----- Original Message ----- From: Denny Anspach To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:45 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re:New addition The Sims power chassis looked fine and worked very well under a weighted plastic HObbyline NKP 2-8-4. With some additions to make the model more prototypical (i.e. cast brass headlight, metal wheels etc.), the model could really come alive. However, some of the other soft lightweight styrene plastic parts of the locomotive could not withstand routine operations very long (lead, trailing, and tender trucks; drive rods and valve gear); and soon the locomotive had to be sidelined to the stationary duty for which it was originally designed in the first place. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7963	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

Bill Wright wrote: > I have been preparing for this for a long time. I have two tugboat > kits and my layout is to the point where I need to build one. I pulled > the kits out and took a look at them. > > One is a Revell Harbor Tug "Taurus", vintage 1973. The other is a > Lindberg, Diesel Tug, vintage 1993. > > The Lindberg is labeled 1/82 scale and indicates it is 14" long. The > box is still sealed in plastic. So it is 6% oversized for HO. > > The Revell does not indicate scale. The instructions says the > prototype was 81.1 feet long. The hull measures 8-1/2" long. That is > 24% undersized. > > The tug will be sitting beside a 450 scale foot long ore boat on my > layout. > > Neither model are waterline models, but have full hulls. > > My questions: Does anyone have experience building either of these > models? > > Hi Bill, the Revell Tug was on sale at Toys-R-Us two years ago, bought one and built it with the intention of converting it to R/C ... well, it still sits on the - "to-do" shelf , built but without motor or anything else special. Its a nice kit but definitely on the small side; however there were small tugs in reality too.... Now, as we are on the topic of boats .... has anybody ever in corporated real water in a layout? John Allen gave up, Dick Patterson had a very beautiful harbor scene ( complete with drawbridge and sidewheel ferry, both operational ) on his layout but he told he would drain the water after use to avoid humidity problems... I know of a display layout in an amusement park where the water was in the basin/ rivers all the time , and apparently this worked well as the layout was operated for decades... BTW, although this may seem off topic I deliberately post this here at vintage HO as I see here more of a chance that one of the members has experience of his own, than on other lists. It seems todays accepted practice is to pour some resin and put waterline models on it , something I dont want to do , despite my fascination with rail/ maritime themes. any input is welcome, I would appreciate links ... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7964	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Regarding Bromo Lines

Steve S,                     Appreciate the information you passed on about the Bromo Line sets. You have added much to my knowledge and the discussion about this company. You say you would like to hear more too but you have provided so much yourself. Along with others you have really expanded  on what I asked. Did this information, about the different sets, come from any written material or your personal knowledge. Thanks for the response.                                                                                          Jim H  ----- Original Message ----- From: magnoliastation To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Regarding Bromo Lines eBay and other auction sites have offered over the years a few train sets marked "Bromo Lines." They all seem to be contained in master boxes with card-stock inserts and lift-off lids which sport the "Bromo Lines" logo in a field of diagonal red and white stripes like a barber pole. Most recently, eBay offered a Bromo master box containing some Penn- Line TOFC cars, sans motive power. I believe this is just the case of someone saving the "Bromo" master box as a convenient means of storing that collector/operator' s Penn Line TOFC car fleet. Other "Bromo" sets offered in the past seeem to all possess inserts similar to those offered by Mantua/Tyco in their yellow-box train set offerings of 1959-61. These are generally white card-stock inserts with perfed edges sporting die-cut openings for specific cars and an open card-stock box for the motive power. A Bromo set referred by another group member was offered in an eBay auction in October, 2008 as: "Vintage HO Guage (sic) SCALE TRAIN SET - BROMO LINE 1950's." It is typical of their offerings, sporting a Mantua/Tyco Booster in GN livery, nested in a corner insert. What is atypical are the freight cars: early Athearn offerings in individual die-cut slots. There is an Athearn caboose in Wabash livery (rather strange in light of the GN engine), the ubiquitous Boston and Maine Athearn hopper, DrG cattle car, Athearn Seaboard flat with boat load and Athearn 40 ft. box car in Western Pacific paint, sporting second- generation doors and door guides. I believe this set to be as originally-sold. Bromo's offering commonly have Mantua/Tyco motive power. Other Bromo sets offered have off-the-shelf Tyco freight cars and cabeese as well. Other sets run behind Tyco's omnipresent 0-4- 0 "Shifter" and tender. A few years back a "deluxe" Bromo set was sold with a line-up of cars similar to Tyco's "Mammoth of the Rails" (minus value-added cars like the operating hopper, derrick car, clearance car and animated box car offered in the Tyco-marketed sets). The big Tyco freight sets were Mikado-powered. The big "Bromo Lines" set ran behind a rather rare bird: the Mantua/Tyco Pacific in C&O freight livery. With those natty "barber-pole" decorated boxes it is tempting to suppose there is a Penn Line connection to Bromo Lines. I suspect, however, that Bromo is more a poor cousin to other "put-together" set distributors like HOTCO, Bronco, Champ and Herkimer (Herkimer's all- Athearn freight sets at least). I have a set in Bromo master box with a Tyco shifter nested in its proper insert. The cars and caboose are all "Crown" offerings, Mantua's clever little attempt to market Athearn rip-offs from Hong Kong. Since the insert for the cars is gone I can't be certain this is an original set and am a bit skeptical. Near as I can tell Mantua didn't offer the "Crown" cars to wholesalers (E&H for example) until July/August of 1964. This seems a bit later than the era of the "Bromo" sets. I'd like to hear more about the little mystery. Steve S. Magnolia Academy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7965	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Attachments : Well it sure took a while, but I found mine.  Of course since some of us lived with this drive for how many years, it is not odd to us.  If these photos need a different angle, let me know.  And one step did break tonight, so I will try and glue it back later.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:53 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7   Don,Mike                  Really appreciate the mention about the odd (to me) drive for Penn Line F units. I would love to get something ( a picture of one, keep looking Chuck) or paper from one. It's really hard to keep track of everything out there. This gives me something else to follow up on and research.                  I have to wonder who came up with what seems to be a terrible design. I'm going to have to look for one to add to my collection.                                                                       Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7966	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: ATT passenger car from awhile back

Attachments : I also found my ATT passenger car.  It does say Tri-ang made in England on the bottom.  I have silver painted out the Santa Fe name on the letter board and it only has a Kadee on the one end, but do not remember why.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7967	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > Now, as we are on the topic of boats .... has anybody ever > in corporated > real water in a layout? I believe that many, many garden layouts have incorporated water flowing throughout the plan. Oh, you meant on INDOOR layouts? ;-{) -- Rick Jones

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7968	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Chuck,                  Thanks for the pictures. Can you show a close up of the bottom of one of the trucks? Is there any writing on them ? Can you show a close up of just how that brass piece inserts into the body / step ?  While it is a Penn Line body and might have been sold as a Penn Line item,even in a Penn line box there is something that doesn't mesh (for me). Please understand I am trying to understand this drive and where it fits. I'm wondering if this was an intermediate drive created by Penn Line or a drive that Sol Kramer came up with after he bought this part of Penn Line out. Kramer did some very odd things with items from companies he bought out. He really cheapened everything. He at one time sold Penn Line plastic passenger cars in Penn Line boxes with paperwork that said AHM. He used up previous stock in so many ways. I know he eventually used the Penn Line F-7's  and sold them under the Lifelike name just by copying them and taking the Penn Line name off the item like the bottom of the trucks.                                                                                          Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 Well it sure took a while, but I found mine.  Of course since some of us lived with this drive for how many years, it is not odd to us.  If these photos need a different angle, let me know.  And one step did break tonight, so I will try and glue it back later. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:53 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 Don,Mike                  Really appreciate the mention about the odd (to me) drive for Penn Line F units. I would love to get something ( a picture of one, keep looking Chuck) or paper from one. It's really hard to keep track of everything out there. This gives me something else to follow up on and research.                  I have to wonder who came up with what seems to be a terrible design. I'm going to have to look for one to add to my collection.                                                                       Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7969	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/2/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Chuck,    Just a picture of the bottom of the truck. I was able to magnify your picture to see how one little prong goes into the step.                                                                                                                                    Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 Well it sure took a while, but I found mine.  Of course since some of us lived with this drive for how many years, it is not odd to us.  If these photos need a different angle, let me know.  And one step did break tonight, so I will try and glue it back later. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:53 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 Don,Mike                  Really appreciate the mention about the odd (to me) drive for Penn Line F units. I would love to get something ( a picture of one, keep looking Chuck) or paper from one. It's really hard to keep track of everything out there. This gives me something else to follow up on and research.                  I have to wonder who came up with what seems to be a terrible design. I'm going to have to look for one to add to my collection.                                                                       Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7970	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

Rick Jones wrote: > --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > >> Now, as we are on the topic of boats .... has anybody ever >> in corporated >> real water in a layout? >> > > I believe that many, many garden layouts have incorporated water flowing throughout the plan. > Oh, you meant on INDOOR layouts? ;-{) > > -- > Sure; I live in Vienna Austria - here an garden layout is highly impractical ( I would not want one if I would live in a more modest climate either ) Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7971	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

Some of the problems with using real water on an HO layout are that 1. it is messy, 2. "things" can grow in it if it isn't refreshed regularly, and 3. it simply doesn't look and behave like 1/87 scale water, unless you add something to kill the surface tension and dye it a dark color. Mike Gerold Eckl wrote: > > > Rick Jones wrote: > > --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@... > <mailto:corv8%40aon.at>> wrote: > > > > > >> Now, as we are on the topic of boats .... has anybody ever > >> in corporated > >> real water in a layout? > >>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7972	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:15:45 -0800 (PST), Rick Jones wrote: > I believe that many, many garden layouts have incorporated water flowing throughout the plan. > Oh, you meant on INDOOR layouts? ;-{) Yep! Many years ago I belonged to the Pacific Beach Model Railroad Club which had its layout at the San Diego County Fairgrounds in Del Mar, CA. One of the key members was a appliance repairman. He rigged a "rescued" washing machine pump to cycle water down a river on the layout. The constant running of the water and the drying out between operating sessions kept the riverbed from growing junk. The appearance was quite effective. Cheers, Jerry -- It's not what your major was in college; it's what your major is in life. -JSP 2008

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7973	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

The Children's Museum in Pittsburgh has a year round Lionel display layout which features a river with real running water. There are (I believe) three boats of different types that travel around the river, which is configured in a loop. Moving magnets under the river control the movement of the boats. I have no idea how they control the humidity, but I suppose the control of algae or other growing fungus is controlled by additives in the water. As far as I can tell the water does not replenish constantly as it is very still. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Prather" <prather.js@...> wrote: > > On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:15:45 -0800 (PST), Rick Jones wrote: > > > I believe that many, many garden layouts have incorporated water flowing throughout the plan. > > Oh, you meant on INDOOR layouts? ;-{) > > Yep! Many years ago I belonged to the Pacific Beach Model > Railroad Club which had its layout at the San Diego County > Fairgrounds in Del Mar, CA. One of the key members was a > appliance repairman. He rigged a "rescued" washing machine pump > to cycle water down a river on the layout. The constant running > of the water and the drying out between operating sessions kept > the riverbed from growing junk. The appearance was quite > effective. > > Cheers, > > Jerry > > -- > It's not what your major was in college; it's > what your major is in life. > -JSP 2008 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7974	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Jerry Prather <prather.js@...> wrote: > On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:15:45 -0800 (PST), Rick Jones wrote: > > > I believe that many, many garden layouts have > incorporated water flowing throughout the plan. > > Oh, you meant on INDOOR layouts? ;-{) > > Yep! Many years ago I belonged to the Pacific Beach Model > Railroad Club which had its layout at the San Diego County > Fairgrounds in Del Mar, CA. One of the key members was a > appliance repairman. He rigged a "rescued" > washing machine pump > to cycle water down a river on the layout. The constant > running > of the water and the drying out between operating sessions > kept > the riverbed from growing junk. The appearance was quite > effective. I remember visiting that layout many years ago when I was in training at NTC and ASWB in San Diego, though I don't recall the water effects. What I do remember was the control panels which had many of the same style switches as the sonar system I was training to operate. Wonder where the club acquired all of those? ;-{) -- Rick Jones

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7975	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:12:52 -0800 (PST), Rick Jones wrote: > I remember visiting that layout many years ago when I was in training at NTC and ASWB in San Diego, though I don't recall the water effects. What I do remember was the control panels which had many of the same style switches as the sonar system I was training to operate. Wonder where the club acquired all of those? ;-{) The layout was begun in the late Forties when there was a lot of war surplus electrical stuff available. You could buy heaps for a song. Cheers, Jerry -- It's not what your major was in college; it's what your major is in life. -JSP 2008

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7976	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Was: Time to build a tugboat kit / now : real water

> The Children's Museum in Pittsburgh has a year round Lionel display > layout which features a river with real running water. There are (I > believe) three boats of different types that travel around the river, > which is configured in a loop. Moving magnets under the river > control the movement of the boats. > > I have no idea how they control the humidity, but I suppose the > control of algae or other growing fungus is controlled by additives > in the water. As far as I can tell the water does not replenish > constantly as it is very still. > > > > Thats what I have in mind - although I think its highly unlikely I ever will rech this stage of layout construction. I had the idea to use only a shallow , flat bottom "lake" so the amount ( and weight) of water would be limited, and some sort of magnetic propulsion could be incorporated ... on the other hand, todays R/C stuff is cheap and small enough to work in HO. Re the disadvantages mentione by Mike : I think the way to go would be to drain the water between operation sessions, to avoid deterioriation of water, growth of alagae and humidity problems... and yes, water does not behave in HO like 1:1 water,... but its liquid! and boats / rafts/ ferries may float on it instead of lying dead on a resin surface.... with all respect, HO train operation has a number of shortcomings too so I think this might be an acceptable compromise. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7977	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

Jerry, > > Yep! Many years ago I belonged to the Pacific Beach Model > Railroad Club which had its layout at the San Diego County > Fairgrounds in Del Mar, CA. One of the key members was a > appliance repairman. He rigged a "rescued" washing machine pump > to cycle water down a river on the layout. The constant running > of the water and the drying out between operating sessions kept > the riverbed from growing junk. The appearance was quite > effective. > good to hear from this layout again; I visited 15 ? years ago but cant remember this feature . Was fascinated by the huge ( hollow) mountain ( I was underneath) and the accompanying trestle , and the trolley section which was under construction. One of the members had a trolley reverse, with pole up, and did not even watch where it was going ... he was completely confident the wheel would stay on the wire, and he was right! It only stopped when it reached the end of the wire. Great layouts, and fine hospitable people. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7978	From: Steven Stoikes	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Regarding Bromo Lines

A few further additional thoughts on the Bromo-promo. My thinking regarding the time frame for Bromo sets may be faulty when considering the manner in which so many of the "put-together" sets were distributed. The Bromo set sold at auction in October, 2008, (the one sporting the Athearn cars) contained the Wabash caboose in tuscan paint, which I think was the last color released, circa 1962. The Urmstrom/Blaisdell Athearn Guide states the DrG cattle car (also part of the Bromo set) dates from 11/62. The only catalogued Tyco set with the C&O freight Pacific (Champion East T6122) dates from 1961. Proceeding under the assumption that, like Polk, E&H and other big outfits offering house train sets made from remaindered or catalog overstock of Penn-Line, Tyco, Varney, Hobbyline and company, Bromo Lines purchased their set contents from manufacturers selling overstock. This would, logically, date the Bromo Lines offerings as more mid-1960s than I had previously supposed. It would also suggest the Bromo set with the Crown cars-- the Mantua-distributed Athearn copies (which also show up as OK and HOTCO and Bronco and, later, AHM and Bachmann and who-knows-under-what-other-banner!)--may be the real deal despite my previous misgivings. Recall my research showing Crown's car line  to show up circa 1964. Until more information (or boxed sets with inserts, or a catalog) turns up, however, this is only conjecture. Jim asked whether my ramblings were grounded in anything beyond my own experience. I have a couple of Bromo sets, resulting from a long-time fascination with what I like to think of as the "golden age" of American-made HO train sets. I was casting about twenty years ago for a collecting fancy to fill the void left by selling my extensive standard guage heap to help pay college costs. Limited (very) funds forced me to adopt a "hit-em-where-they-aint" philosophy. No one my age seemed to care one whit for American-made vintage HO. I bought a few boxed sets and got the bug. I developed friendships with a generation of old hands--many of whom have sadly passed--who were a wealth of information, heaps of marginalia and a ton of old paper--catalogs, periodicals and price guides. That is about the size of it. (Heck; that "ancient knowledge"  is why I just plug in and read this site front to back--y'all know more in your little train-collecting pinkies than the average brass-hat.) Thanks to all you fellas for the knowledge, and the collecting and operating passion to keep this magnificent kinetic art form vibrant and rolling. Mag Academy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7979	From: Jerry Prather	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:06:46 +0100, Gerold Eckl wrote: >good to hear from this layout again; I visited 15 ? years ago but cant >remember this feature . Was fascinated by the huge ( hollow) mountain ( >I was underneath) and the accompanying trestle , and the trolley section >which was under construction. One of the members had a trolley reverse, >with pole up, and did not even watch where it was going ... he was >completely confident the wheel would stay on the wire, and he was right! >It only stopped when it reached the end of the wire. >Great layouts, and fine hospitable people. Thank you (he said modestly). I was there 1972-1975 (at the Navy's discretion). Although not really a traction fan, I saw the area as needing a bit of help, so I used my work nights (every Tuesday) to try to get it into full operation. (Uh, note that I am talking about the interurban, not the streetcar which was always in good shape.) I really enjoyed helping to operate the layout for the 1974 NMRA Convention and was particularly gratified to hear the comment: "This was a layout that really worked!" When the club was finally evicted, most of the members became supporters of one of the several clubs located at the San Diego Model Railroad Museum in Balboa Park. The layout was a classic spaghetti formation in tune with its early construction, but it had several notable features. It operated point-to-point. Underhill was the location that you visited; it was a rather massive fiddle yard under the mountainous topography. The other end of the line, Pacific Beach, featured a full passenger depot (with express services on a lower level), including stub tracks and a through track. The station featured a clock tower which operated in synch with our scale clocks. There were full engine facilities which included both a turntable and roundhouse and an operating transfer table with an associated erection/engine shop. Participation in this club is one of the highlights of my life. Cheers/2, Jerry -- It's not what your major was in college; it's what your major is in life. -JSP 2008

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7980	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Attachments : Jim, Here it is.  Both the truck bottoms and the fuel tank bottom have PENN LINE on them.  I am going to say this loco was purchased for Christmas 1961. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7   Chuck,                  Thanks for the pictures. Can you show a close up of the bottom of one of the trucks? Is there any writing on them ? Can you show a close up of just how that brass piece inserts into the body / step ?  While it is a Penn Line body and might have been sold as a Penn Line item,even in a Penn line box there is something that doesn't mesh (for me). Please understand I am trying to understand this drive and where it fits. I'm wondering if this was an intermediate drive created by Penn Line or a drive that Sol Kramer came up with after he bought this part of Penn Line out. Kramer did some very odd things with items from companies he bought out. He really cheapened everything. He at one time sold Penn Line plastic passenger cars in Penn Line boxes with paperwork that said AHM. He used up previous stock in so many ways. I know he eventually used the Penn Line F-7's  and sold them under the Lifelike name just by copying them and taking the Penn Line name off the item like the bottom of the trucks.                                                                                          Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7981	From: trainliker	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

I'm a little late to the party of this thread, but have a comment about the scale of ships. The first message mentioned a 450 foot scale ore boat and I remember a few years ago seeing the new HO layout at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. (I grew up in a suburb and visit the place whenever I am in the area - great place). They had a scale ore boat or two, or maybe it was container ships, whatever, my mother thought they looked out of scale on the large size. And you know, they sort of did. I think there is a perception issue at play here. In real life, trains are way bigger than us, and big ships larger yet. With the model railroad, a huge scale ship is still fairly huge, about as big as one of us, but the trains are much, much smaller. I think that in real life the ships don't seem as much larger than the trains as they do in the model world. Therefore, you could probably have a ship that was considerably undersize and still have things look and "feel" pretty right. This might extend to even smaller boats like the tugboat. As long as you avoided going too small or drawing too much attention with scale figures, I don't think most people can connect the scale of the trains and the boats all that well in the model world. I think some of the same perception issues exist for huge steel mills or grain silos. Even when scale, they can just seem too huge compared to the trains. Chuck Kinzer --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Prather" <prather.js@...> wrote: > > On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:06:46 +0100, Gerold Eckl wrote: > > >good to hear from this layout again; I visited 15 ? years ago but cant > >remember this feature . Was fascinated by the huge ( hollow) mountain ( > >I was underneath) and the accompanying trestle , and the trolley section > >which was under construction. One of the members had a trolley reverse, > >with pole up, and did not even watch where it was going ... he was > >completely confident the wheel would stay on the wire, and he was right! > >It only stopped when it reached the end of the wire. > >Great layouts, and fine hospitable people. > > Thank you (he said modestly). > > I was there 1972-1975 (at the Navy's discretion). Although not > really a traction fan, I saw the area as needing a bit of help, > so I used my work nights (every Tuesday) to try to get it into > full operation. (Uh, note that I am talking about the > interurban, not the streetcar which was always in good shape.) > I really enjoyed helping to operate the layout for the 1974 NMRA > Convention and was particularly gratified to hear the comment: > "This was a layout that really worked!" When the club was > finally evicted, most of the members became supporters of one of > the several clubs located at the San Diego Model Railroad Museum > in Balboa Park. > > The layout was a classic spaghetti formation in tune with its > early construction, but it had several notable features. It > operated point-to-point. Underhill was the location that you > visited; it was a rather massive fiddle yard under the > mountainous topography. The other end of the line, Pacific > Beach, featured a full passenger depot (with express services on > a lower level), including stub tracks and a through track. The > station featured a clock tower which operated in synch with our > scale clocks. There were full engine facilities which included > both a turntable and roundhouse and an operating transfer table > with an associated erection/engine shop. > > Participation in this club is one of the highlights of my life. > > Cheers/2, > > Jerry > > -- > It's not what your major was in college; it's > what your major is in life. > -JSP 2008 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7982	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Chuck,          Appreciate that you sent the pictures. They help a lot. I am getting one of these Penn Line engines off my PL friend. I ask him why he never told me about this type. He said "you never asked".           I have to now believe this was a Penn Line product when it was still owned by the original owners. Since Lew English of Bowser in his Bowser reference manual said he bought Penn Line products at auction in 1963 and Greenberg's Varney book said Sol Kramer and Lew English split up Penn Line at the Jan 29 1964 auction. (Not that much difference in dates). Since you feel you got yours in 1961 and others had similar dates there is no reason for me to believe this was created after Penn Line went bankrupt from leftover PL parts. Can't believe they made such a piece of junk.           Glad I found out about this item to start with and thanks for all the comments.                                                                                                   Jim H                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:21 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 Jim, Here it is.  Both the truck bottoms and the fuel tank bottom have PENN LINE on them.  I am going to say this loco was purchased for Christmas 1961. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 Chuck,                  Thanks for the pictures. Can you show a close up of the bottom of one of the trucks? Is there any writing on them ? Can you show a close up of just how that brass piece inserts into the body / step ?  While it is a Penn Line body and might have been sold as a Penn Line item,even in a Penn line box there is something that doesn't mesh (for me). Please understand I am trying to understand this drive and where it fits. I'm wondering if this was an intermediate drive created by Penn Line or a drive that Sol Kramer came up with after he bought this part of Penn Line out. Kramer did some very odd things with items from companies he bought out. He really cheapened everything. He at one time sold Penn Line plastic passenger cars in Penn Line boxes with paperwork that said AHM. He used up previous stock in so many ways. I know he eventually used the Penn Line F-7's  and sold them under the Lifelike name just by copying them and taking the Penn Line name off the item like the bottom of the trucks.                                                                                          Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7983	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

Jim, It did run for many years, at a high speed, before the steps broke.  It was good for a 4 x 8 layout.  As a kid then, I may have been rougher on it than I would be now.  So it was a good idea, just did not work out as planned.  I just peeked at the 1961 catalog and it is in there, at HOseeker.  At least the short step, 8 wheel drive F7 body.  Not sure of the frame, or lack of a frame. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:27 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7   Chuck,          Appreciate that you sent the pictures. They help a lot. I am getting one of these Penn Line engines off my PL friend. I ask him why he never told me about this type. He said "you never asked".           I have to now believe this was a Penn Line product when it was still owned by the original owners. Since Lew English of Bowser in his Bowser reference manual said he bought Penn Line products at auction in 1963 and Greenberg's Varney book said Sol Kramer and Lew English split up Penn Line at the Jan 29 1964 auction. (Not that much difference in dates). Since you feel you got yours in 1961 and others had similar dates there is no reason for me to believe this was created after Penn Line went bankrupt from leftover PL parts. Can't believe they made such a piece of junk.           Glad I found out about this item to start with and thanks for all the comments.                                                                                                   Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7984	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:07 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 > Jim, > > It did run for many years, at a high speed, before the steps broke. It > was > good for a 4 x 8 layout. As a kid then, I may have been rougher on it > than > I would be now. So it was a good idea, just did not work out as planned. > I > just peeked at the 1961 catalog and it is in there, at HOseeker. At least > the short step, 8 wheel drive F7 body. Not sure of the frame, or lack of > a > frame. > > Take care, > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 My first Penn Line with the original frame and Athearn body was purchased in January 1960 (I got my first HO for Christmas 1959, the Penn Line was for my following birthday). The one with the separate trucks was within the following year, so that 1961 date is pretty good. '61-'62 was the "slot car" craze, which is part of what "killed" both Penn Line and Varney (as well as a number of smaller manufacturers). Wholesalers said "trains were gone, slot cars were the new hobby, so they stopped carrying train lines. This is also part of what lead Walthers to start wholesaling other lines instead of just marketing their own. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7985	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/3/2008
Subject: Re: Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7

This goes to show how valuable this group is. It started out with someone asking if it was true that Penn Line used Athearn bodies (F-7 and GP-9 actually GP-7 ?) at first. I send back that was true. I sent pictures to show the difference between the first used Athearn F-7 and the later Penn Line F-7 with the different steps. Because of these discussions I find out about a Penn Line drive that I didn't know about and from a number of members. If it wasn't for the sharing of information by the members I still wouldn't know. Thanks to the members I even have some dates to go by (and believe me sometimes it's hard to pin down exactly those dates).          Thanks to all who helped.                                                             Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@verizon. net> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:07 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Athearn F7 vs Penn Line F7 > Jim, > > It did run for many years, at a high speed, before the steps broke. It > was > good for a 4 x 8 layout. As a kid then, I may have been rougher on it > than > I would be now. So it was a good idea, just did not work out as planned. > I > just peeked at the 1961 catalog and it is in there, at HOseeker. At least > the short step, 8 wheel drive F7 body. Not sure of the frame, or lack of > a > frame. > > Take care, > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 My first Penn Line with the original frame and Athearn body was purchased in January 1960 (I got my first HO for Christmas 1959, the Penn Line was for my following birthday). The one with the separate trucks was within the following year, so that 1961 date is pretty good. '61-'62 was the "slot car" craze, which is part of what "killed" both Penn Line and Varney (as well as a number of smaller manufacturers) . Wholesalers said "trains were gone, slot cars were the new hobby, so they stopped carrying train lines. This is also part of what lead Walthers to start wholesaling other lines instead of just marketing their own. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7986	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

What you are describing it the theory of "selective compression" that has been a staple of model railroading since its inception. The key here is do decide what you want to accomplish in terms of your particular layout and go from there. Full size HO urban warehouses and factories would probably take up most of the available space on anyone's layout, so we "compress" them to provide more room for the railroad aspect. A Great Lakes ore carrier would be about 6' long, and the ore dock even larger. While such things are probably great fun to model, they wouldn't leave a lot of space for the railroad. I guess it would be more reasonable if you were working in Z scale, but not HO. Mike trainliker wrote: > > > I'm a little late to the party of this thread, but have a comment > about the scale of ships. > > The first message mentioned a 450 foot scale ore boat and I remember > a few years ago seeing the new HO layout at the Chicago Museum of > Science and Industry. (I grew up in a suburb and visit the place > whenever I am in the area - great place). They had a scale ore boat > or two, or maybe it was container ships, whatever, my mother thought > they looked out of scale on the large size. And you know, they sort > of did. > > I think there is a perception issue at play here. In real life, > trains are way bigger than us, and big ships larger yet. With the > model railroad, a huge scale ship is still fairly huge, about as big > as one of us, but the trains are much, much smaller. > > I think that in real life the ships don't seem as much larger than > the trains as they do in the model world. Therefore, you could > probably have a ship that was considerably undersize and still have > things look and "feel" pretty right. > > This might extend to even smaller boats like the tugboat. As long > as you avoided going too small or drawing too much attention with > scale figures, I don't think most people can connect the scale of > the trains and the boats all that well in the model world. > > I think some of the same perception issues exist for huge steel > mills or grain silos. Even when scale, they can just seem too huge > compared to the trains. > > Chuck Kinzer >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7987	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

I wouldn't call this the same thing as selective compression.  In that, you change the design to result in a smaller item, yet what you build is still to scale.  (Scale 6 foot people can still fit through the doors.)  It's hard to selectively compress a ship without hurting its proportions such as a Lionel GG1 compared to a scale GG1.   In the case of a 12 silo grain elevator, making six silos instead of twelve would be selective compression with each silo still being to scale.  Making 12 silos 60% of full scale would not be.  At least not in the way I have always seen the term used in the hobby press.   Nor is it the same as putting something like a N scale building in the distance of an HO layout to create the illusion of more depth.   It is simply using the wrong scale for something which, perhaps because of the nature of the item, is still so dominating in size to the trains, that people may not notice it is underscale.   Chuck K.   ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Sloane To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:52 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Time to build a tugboat kit What you are describing it the theory of "selective compression" that has been a staple of model railroading since its inception. The key here is do decide what you want to accomplish in terms of your particular layout and go from there. Full size HO urban warehouses and factories would probably take up most of the available space on anyone's layout, so we "compress" them to provide more room for the railroad aspect. A Great Lakes ore carrier would be about 6' long, and the ore dock even larger. While such things are probably great fun to model, they wouldn't leave a lot of space for the railroad. I guess it would be more reasonable if you were working in Z scale, but not HO. Mike trainliker wrote: > > > I'm a little late to the party of this thread, but have a comment > about the scale of ships. > > The first message mentioned a 450 foot scale ore boat and I remember > a few years ago seeing the new HO layout at the Chicago Museum of > Science and Industry. (I grew up in a suburb and visit the place > whenever I am in the area - great place). They had a scale ore boat > or two, or maybe it was container ships, whatever, my mother thought > they looked out of scale on the large size. And you know, they sort > of did. > > I think there is a perception issue at play here. In real life, > trains are way bigger than us, and big ships larger yet. With the > model railroad, a huge scale ship is still fairly huge, about as big > as one of us, but the trains are much, much smaller. > > I think that in real life the ships don't seem as much larger than > the trains as they do in the model world. Therefore, you could > probably have a ship that was considerably undersize and still have > things look and "feel" pretty right. > > This might extend to even smaller boats like the tugboat. As long > as you avoided going too small or drawing too much attention with > scale figures, I don't think most people can connect the scale of > the trains and the boats all that well in the model world. > > I think some of the same perception issues exist for huge steel > mills or grain silos. Even when scale, they can just seem too huge > compared to the trains. > > Chuck Kinzer >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7988	From: Mike Sloane	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

I see your point, but I think that, for instance, a 3' great lakes ore carrier would still look like a big ship on an HO layout. And I don't think that many "rivet counters" would object. As you suggested, what we (usually) selectively compress isn't the trains themselves but the related background stuff in order to concentrate on the railroad aspect of the hobby. Of course, sometimes we selectively compress the trains too - ever see the old Walthers "Piker" or "Oscar" passenger cars? All in good fun, of course. Mike ckinzer@... wrote: > > > I wouldn't call this the same thing as selective compression. In > that, you change the design to result in a smaller item, yet what you > build is still to scale. (Scale 6 foot people can still fit through the > doors.) It's hard to selectively compress a ship without hurting its > proportions such as a Lionel GG1 compared to a scale GG1. > > In the case of a 12 silo grain elevator, making six silos instead of > twelve would be selective compression with each silo still being to > scale. Making 12 silos 60% of full scale would not be. At least not in > the way I have always seen the term used in the hobby press. > > Nor is it the same as putting something like a N scale building in the > distance of an HO layout to create the illusion of more depth. > > It is simply using the wrong scale for something which, perhaps because > of the nature of the item, is still so dominating in size to the trains, > that people may not notice it is underscale. > > Chuck K. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mike Sloane <mailto:mikesloane@...> > *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:52 AM > *Subject:* Re: [vintageHO] Re: Time to build a tugboat kit > > What you are describing it the theory of "selective compression" that > has been a staple of model railroading since its inception. The key > here > is do decide what you want to accomplish in terms of your particular > layout and go from there. Full size HO urban warehouses and factories > would probably take up most of the available space on anyone's layout, > so we "compress" them to provide more room for the railroad aspect. A > Great Lakes ore carrier would be about 6' long, and the ore dock even > larger. While such things are probably great fun to model, they > wouldn't > leave a lot of space for the railroad. I guess it would be more > reasonable if you were working in Z scale, but not HO. > > Mike >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7989	From: Bill Wright	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Time to build a tugboat kit

Thanks for all the comments. Looks like I will start by building the Lindberg. I am glad to hear that Walthers is reissuing the Railroad Tugboat model in February. That is a viable option at $64.95. I didn't particularly like the color of the finished model on eBay and it went for close to $65 when shipping was included. Bill Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7990	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Regarding Bromo Lines

Steven,            Enjoyed reading your comments especially about keeping the knowledge about vintage HO alive. That is where my passion for HO lies. While I never will find out everything nor have one of each piece I really enjoy learning more. I'm like that old saying about "Jack of all trades, master of none". For me it has been , Knowledge of all vintage brands, master of none. I have tried to find out anything concerning vintage HO from 1936 to about 1975. My collection has grown pretty large as I find out more and more.  I can't "run" trains anymore since I no longer have a layout, so collecting the next best thing.            I have a suggestion since you have a large collection of paper, catalogs, etc. that you contact Larry Stevenson of HOseeker.net and share copies with all of us. Every little bit of information means more for all. Thanks for your comments especially "The Bromo Line".                                                                       Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Stoikes To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Regarding Bromo Lines A few further additional thoughts on the Bromo-promo. My thinking regarding the time frame for Bromo sets may be faulty when considering the manner in which so many of the "put-together" sets were distributed. The Bromo set sold at auction in October, 2008, (the one sporting the Athearn cars) contained the Wabash caboose in tuscan paint, which I think was the last color released, circa 1962. The Urmstrom/Blaisdell Athearn Guide states the DrG cattle car (also part of the Bromo set) dates from 11/62. The only catalogued Tyco set with the C&O freight Pacific (Champion East T6122) dates from 1961. Proceeding under the assumption that, like Polk, E&H and other big outfits offering house train sets made from remaindered or catalog overstock of Penn-Line, Tyco, Varney, Hobbyline and company, Bromo Lines purchased their set contents from manufacturers selling overstock. This would, logically, date the Bromo Lines offerings as more m id-1960s than I had previously supposed. It would also suggest the Bromo set with the Crown cars-- the Mantua-distributed Athearn copies (which also show up as OK and HOTCO and Bronco and, later, AHM and Bachmann and who-knows-under- what-other- banner!)- -may be the real deal despite my previous misgivings. Recall my research showing Crown's car line  to show up circa 1964. Until more information (or boxed sets with inserts, or a catalog) turns up, however, this is only conjecture. Jim asked whether my ramblings were grounded in anything beyond my own experience. I have a couple of Bromo sets, resulting from a long-time fascination with what I like to think of as the "golden age" of American-made HO train sets. I was casting about twenty years ago for a collecting fancy to fill the void left by selling my extensive standard guage heap to help pay college costs. Limited (very) funds forced me to adopt a "hit-em-where- they-aint" philosophy. No one my age s eemed to care one whit for American-made vintage HO. I bought a few boxed sets and got the bug. I developed friendships with a generation of old hands--many of whom have sadly passed--who were a wealth of information, heaps of marginalia and a ton of old paper--catalogs, periodicals and price guides. That is about the size of it. (Heck; that "ancient knowledge"  is why I just plug in and read this site front to back--y'all know more in your little train-collecting pinkies than the average brass-hat.) Thanks to all you fellas for the knowledge, and the collecting and operating passion to keep this magnificent kinetic art form vibrant and rolling. Mag Academy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7991	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Car tilt

I rescued a 55' covered hopper from a yardsale. I think it's an Accurail, there isn't any markings on it, but I know it's not an Athearn or Roundhouse. I put Kadees on it and when I went to check their height, I discovered the car was leaning to one side. It seems to have three positions, leaning to one side or the other or straight up, but it will stay in whatever position you put it in, it doesn't self-center. I tried tightening the screws, but then the trucks wouldn't turn. When I loosened the screw it made it tilt even more easily. Any suggestions?   Steve

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7992	From: jay matz	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt

Steve http://www.railwayeng.com/rrhints.htm Look at #9 I have done this and it works . Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7993	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt

Does it still have its weights inside, just above the hopper bays? When I used to scratchbuild cars, this could happen if the bodywork was too light. Weighing it down helps. Accurail bodies are somewhat light without weight, so it would not surprise me if this is the case. -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote: > > I rescued a 55' covered hopper from a yardsale. I think it's an Accurail, there isn't any markings on it, but I know it's not an Athearn or Roundhouse. I put Kadees on it and when I went to check their height, I discovered the car was leaning to one side. It seems to have three positions, leaning to one side or the other or straight up, but it will stay in whatever position you put it in, it doesn't self-center. I tried tightening the screws, but then the trucks wouldn't turn. When I loosened the screw it made it tilt even more easily. Any suggestions? > > Steve >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7994	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt

The car is glued together, but it's heavy enough that I think the weight's in it.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: railwaymodeler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:56 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Car tilt Does it still have its weights inside, just above the hopper bays? When I used to scratchbuild cars, this could happen if the bodywork was too light. Weighing it down helps. Accurail bodies are somewhat light without weight, so it would not surprise me if this is the case. -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote: > > I rescued a 55' covered hopper from a yardsale. I think it's an Accurail, there isn't any markings on it, but I know it's not an Athearn or Roundhouse. I put Kadees on it and when I went to check their height, I discovered the car was leaning to one side. It seems to have three positions, leaning to one side or the other or straight up, but it will stay in whatever position you put it in, it doesn't self-center. I tried tightening the screws, but then the trucks wouldn't turn. When I loosened the screw it made it tilt even more easily. Any suggestions? > > Steve > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7995	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt

That's where I was headed ... the car has only one point of contact with the trucks. I noticed that a lot of the other cars had nubs(?) on the bolsters that almost touched the trucks ... this car didn't. I was going to add shims to see if that would correct the problem. What I discovered was that there was too much play between the screw head and the truck. I trimmed the truck mount down just a hair so that the screw was snug against the truck. That solved the problem! Thanks to all that responded!.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: jay matz To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Car tilt Steve http://www.railwayeng.com/rrhints.htm Look at #9 I have done this and it works . Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7996	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt

You want to get a 3-point suspension.  One truck able to rock freely, the other supported on the sidebearers.  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: My-Yahoo-Groups To: HOmodelers@yahoogroups.com ; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:35 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Car tilt I rescued a 55' covered hopper from a yardsale. I think it's an Accurail, there isn't any markings on it, but I know it's not an Athearn or Roundhouse. I put Kadees on it and when I went to check their height, I discovered the car was leaning to one side. It seems to have three positions, leaning to one side or the other or straight up, but it will stay in whatever position you put it in, it doesn't self-center. I tried tightening the screws, but then the trucks wouldn't turn. When I loosened the screw it made it tilt even more easily. Any suggestions?   Steve No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.14/1829 - Release Date: 12/4/2008 2:59 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7997	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt

While I'm glad you were able to fix your problem and also got lots of input from others I would like to add to it. Have you ever used the old Mantua wave washers? I had luck sometimes using them on tenders that didn't ride right.                                                                               Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: My-Yahoo-Groups To: HOtrains@yahoogroups.com ; HOmodelers@yahoogroups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Car tilt That's where I was headed ... the car has only one point of contact with the trucks. I noticed that a lot of the other cars had nubs(?) on the bolsters that almost touched the trucks ... this car didn't. I was going to add shims to see if that would correct the problem. What I discovered was that there was too much play between the screw head and the truck. I trimmed the truck mount down just a hair so that the screw was snug against the truck. That solved the problem! Thanks to all that responded!.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: jay matz To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Car tilt Steve http://www.railwaye ng.com/rrhints. htm Look at #9 I have done this and it works . Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7998	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt

Jim,   I don't even know what the Mantua wave washers are?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Car tilt          While I'm glad you were able to fix your problem and also got lots of input from others I would like to add to it. Have you ever used the old Mantua wave washers? I had luck sometimes using them on tenders that didn't ride right.                                                                               Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: My-Yahoo-Groups To: HOtrains@yahoogroups.com ; HOmodelers@yahoogroups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Car tilt That's where I was headed ... the car has only one point of contact with the trucks. I noticed that a lot of the other cars had nubs(?) on the bolsters that almost touched the trucks ... this car didn't. I was going to add shims to see if that would correct the problem. What I discovered was that there was too much play between the screw head and the truck. I trimmed the truck mount down just a hair so that the screw was snug against the truck. That solved the problem! Thanks to all that responded!.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: jay matz To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Car tilt Steve http://www.railwaye ng.com/rrhints. htm Look at #9 I have done this and it works . Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 7999	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/4/2008
Subject: Re: Car tilt

Years ago Mantua had a skinny brass washer, that fit over the truck bolster pin for the screw, that was formed in an up and down pattern hence called wave washer. It took up space between the truck and bolster and helped to "level" the cars/tenders. I don't know if Mantua made them till they went out of business as I had some stocked up.                           Jim H              ----- Original Message ----- From: My-Yahoo-Groups To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Car tilt Jim,   I don't even know what the Mantua wave washers are?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Car tilt          While I'm glad you were able to fix your problem and also got lots of input from others I would like to add to it. Have you ever used the old Mantua wave washers? I had luck sometimes using them on tenders that didn't ride right.                                                                               Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: My-Yahoo-Groups To: HOtrains@yahoogroup s.com ; HOmodelers@yahoogro ups.com ; vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Car tilt That's where I was headed ... the car has only one point of contact with the trucks. I noticed that a lot of the other cars had nubs(?) on the bolsters that almost touched the trucks ... this car didn't. I was going to add shims to see if that would correct the problem. What I discovered was that there was too much play between the screw head and the truck. I trimmed the truck mount down just a hair so that the screw was snug against the truck. That solved the problem! Thanks to all that responded!.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: jay matz To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Car tilt Steve http://www.railwaye ng.com/rrhints. htm Look at #9 I have done this and it works . Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8000	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 12/6/2008
Subject: New Vids

I know you all will enjoy this first video, its great, Wizards Of Winter, done by mtrails, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSFU0VZB2Nc   And heres my latest, Thunder In The Canyon, enjoy the daily thunderstorms that grace the Animas Canyon every afternoon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woWuEAocxFQ   And here is one I did about a month ago, showing the progress of how far I've gotten, I'm not far from Silverton now, still a lot of work on this route though.....   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlu6JpLOj_c   Enjoy!!!!!!!!!:o)   Gary W   Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8001	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 12/7/2008
Subject: Varney Class Lights

Back when Varney was making steam locomotive kits they made the locomotive classification lights out of plastic (Nylon?). Are these plastic class lights still available anywhere? I am not looking for the caboose markers. I'm looking for the round bug-eye classification lights. I could use about a dozen. Bill DeFoe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8002	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/7/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Class Lights

Bill, I would suggest trying somewhere that handles jewelry findings.   They often have an incredible variety of nifty li'l things. No, offhand I don't know of any. Used to plenty in NYC., though and might very well still be.   Try a Google search for jewelry findings. Spell carefully, tho. God only knows what you might find...   yours   Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) --- On Sun, 12/7/08, Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> wrote: From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Class Lights To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, December 7, 2008, 9:08 PM Back when Varney was making steam locomotive kits they made the locomotive classification lights out of plastic (Nylon?). Are these plastic class lights still available anywhere? I am not looking for the caboose markers. I'm looking for the round bug-eye classification lights. I could use about a dozen. Bill DeFoe ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8003	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/7/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Class Lights

would you be thinking of the ones on the F-3's? Those were part of the Scalite lighting kits--the kit had 2 each clear, green, and black. Perhaps 1/16" diameter by 5/16 long with a mushroomed head. Not Varney at all. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Class Lights > Back when Varney was making steam locomotive kits they made the > locomotive classification lights out of plastic (Nylon?). Are these > plastic class lights still available anywhere? > > I am not looking for the caboose markers. I'm looking for the round > bug-eye classification lights. > > I could use about a dozen. > > Bill DeFoe > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1834 - Release Date: 12/6/2008 4:55 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8004	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 12/8/2008
Subject: Re: Varney Class Lights

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. No-one seems to know what I am talking about. I am looking for the light castings (in plastic), not the jewels or lighting kits. Brass locomotives have them cast in brass, and many US manufacturers had them cast in soft metal (Zamac). Varney used to cast them in plastic. Here's why I am looking for the plastic ones. There are some very tiny LED's now available from Richmond Controls that are small enough to fit inside these HO classification light castings. They are called the 603 type and measure only .030" x .060". Richmond Controls solders fine pigtail wires to them and sells them for $3.00 each. If I use brass or metal I am worried about the solder joints shorting out against the metal. The old Varney plastic castings would eliminate the problem. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > would you be thinking of the ones on the F-3's? Those were part of the > Scalite lighting kits--the kit had 2 each clear, green, and black. Perhaps > 1/16" diameter by 5/16 long with a mushroomed head. Not Varney at all. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:08 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Class Lights > > > > Back when Varney was making steam locomotive kits they made the > > locomotive classification lights out of plastic (Nylon?). Are these > > plastic class lights still available anywhere? > > > > I am not looking for the caboose markers. I'm looking for the round > > bug-eye classification lights. > > > > I could use about a dozen. > > > > Bill DeFoe > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1834 - Release Date: 12/6/2008 > 4:55 PM >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8005	From: Al Campbell	Date: 12/11/2008
Subject: The Reporting Mark

Hello: I am looking to purchase copies of "The Reporting Mark", a publication of the HO history SIG. This is at present a non active group of the NMRA. I can be reached at al AT customrail DOT com. Thanks, Al Campbell PS replace AT with@ and DOT with .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8006	From: sswcharlie	Date: 12/11/2008
Subject: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane

Hi Does anyone come across the cast iron model Railplane (about9" long) at shows, meets, etc. Producd by Arcade in the 1930s. Are they easy to comeby and what prices roughly. I am interested (depending on price) of one in broken or damaged condition. Thks Charlie Harris NZ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8007	From: larrydonhoffner@aol.com	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Hobbyline parts.

Hello to the Group. Long time lurker, first time poster. I am trying to build 6 Hobbytown gondolas but somehow over the last 25 years or so since I bought them the brake cylinders, triple valve and air tanks have disappeared. I would like to keep  them as close to original as possible. Does any one know of a source for the parts. Thanks,Larry Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations – including songs for the holidays – FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8008	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbyline parts.

I have not heard of a source for Hobbyline parts.   HO Seeker http://www.hoseeker.org/hobbyline.html has scans of Hobbyline catalogs, Grandt Line offers AB brake sets that may be useful.  There is a John English/Hobbyline Yahoo group whose members may have extra parts. Roger Aultman http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnEnglish-Hobbyline/?yguid=310579148       Hello to the Group. Long time lurker, first time poster. I am trying to build 6 Hobbytown gondolas but somehow over the last 25 years or so since I bought them the brake cylinders, triple valve and air tanks have disappeared. I would like to keep  them as close to original as possible. Does any one know of a source for the parts. Thanks,Larry Listen to 350+ music, sports, news radio stations – including songs for the holidays – FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8009	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane

Here are some images.......... http://www.4030.com/gallery/pullman_more_pics.htm This is interesting......... the original patterns were auctioned off near the first of this year........ Images there......... http://www.whats4sale.biz/Albums/Vintage_Toys_01-26-08/album/138/index.html A buy-it-now of $50 ........ http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-1936-ARCADE-PULLMAN-RAIL-PLANE-8-1-2-INCHES_W0QQitemZ140281117587QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDiecast_Vehicles?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 OR.......... http://tinyurl.com/5ffxhr Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 11, 2008, at 7:02 PM, sswcharlie wrote: Hi Does anyone come across the cast iron model Railplane (about9" long) at shows, meets, etc. Producd by Arcade in the 1930s. Are they easy to comeby and what prices roughly.  I am interested (depending on price) of one in broken or damaged condition.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8010	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane > Here are some images.......... > > http://www.4030.com/gallery/pullman_more_pics.htm > > This is interesting......... the original patterns were auctioned off > near the first of this year........ > > Images there......... > > http://www.whats4sale.biz/Albums/Vintage_Toys_01-26-08/album/138/index.html > > A buy-it-now of $50 ........ > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-1936-ARCADE-PULLMAN-RAIL-PLANE-8-1-2-INCHES_W0QQitemZ140281117587QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDiecast_Vehicles?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 > > OR.......... http://tinyurl.com/5ffxhr > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Dec 11, 2008, at 7:02 PM, sswcharlie wrote: That's just down the road from here, maybe we should check it out? I wonder how far that is from the Elegant Farmer, we could ride the trolley to get there! Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8011	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbyline parts.

If you've got one parts sprue, it would not be a real difficult task to cast copies. Unbuilt HObbyline kits still show up on eBay at reasonable prices, it might be worth it to pick one up just to get a set of masters. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbyline parts. I have not heard of a source for Hobbyline parts. HO Seeker http://www.hoseeker.org/hobbyline.html has scans of Hobbyline catalogs, Grandt Line offers AB brake sets that may be useful. There is a John English/Hobbyline Yahoo group whose members may have extra parts. Roger Aultman http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnEnglish-Hobbyline/?yguid=310579148 Hello to the Group. Long time lurker, first time poster. I am trying to build 6 Hobbytown gondolas but somehow over the last 25 years or so since I bought them the brake cylinders, triple valve and air tanks have disappeared. I would like to keep them as close to original as possible. Does any one know of a source for the parts. Thanks,Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Listen to 350+ music, sports, news radio stations - including songs for the holidays - FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8012	From: Charlie	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane What Scale ?

Hi Mike   Thanks for info.   I may make an offer on the Ebay item.   Does anyone know waht scale this item would be approx ?   Charlie       ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane Here are some images...... .... http://www.4030. com/gallery/ pullman_more_ pics.htm This is interesting. ........ the original patterns were auctioned off near the first of this year........ Images there....... .. http://www.whats4sa le.biz/Albums/ Vintage_Toys_ 01-26-08/ album/138/ index.html A buy-it-now of $50 ........ http://cgi.ebay. com/VINTAGE- 1936-ARCADE- PULLMAN-RAIL- PLANE-8-1- 2-INCHES_ W0QQitemZ1402811 17587QQcmdZViewI< wbr>temQQptZDiecast_ Vehicles? _trksid=p3286. m20.l1116 OR.......... http://tinyurl. com/5ffxhr Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 11, 2008, at 7:02 PM, sswcharlie wrote: Hi Does anyone come across the cast iron model Railp lane (about9" long) at shows, meets, etc. Producd by Arcade in the 1930s. Are they easy to comeby and what prices roughly.  I am interested (depending on price) of one in broken or damaged condition.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8013	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/12/2008
Subject: Re: Arcade (manufacturer) Pullman Railplane

On Dec 12, 2008, at 6:20 PM, Don Dellmann wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bauers" ............ >> A buy-it-now of $50 ........ >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-1936-ARCADE-PULLMAN-RAIL-PLANE-8-1-2-INCHES_W0QQitemZ140281117587QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDiecast_Vehicles?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 >> >> OR.......... http://tinyurl.com/5ffxhr >> >> On Dec 11, 2008, at 7:02 PM, sswcharlie wrote: > > That's just down the road from here, maybe we should check it out? > I wonder > how far that is from the Elegant Farmer, we could ride the trolley > to get > there! > > Don That's tempting...... Now if I wasn't working on Sat, or have to repair the snowblower this Sunday............ I gotta get ready for the snows for this next week. It snapped the auger control cable a bit over a week ago on the last pass, and the part just arrived a day ago. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8014	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 12/13/2008
Subject: Re: Hobbyline parts.

Larry:   I've got five HObbyline unbuilt hopper cars that look complete.  Brake stuff is on the sprue.  Not sure if identical to what goes on the gondola.  But has the typical looking individual parts although they mount at the end, not bottom, of the hopper.  Maybe the same sprue used for everything?   If you are interested, send me your address to me offline and I'll get them mailed to you.  No charge.  (I got them among some other flotsom and jetsom I got via ebay awhile back.)  I'd rather see them go to use than be a dust catcher.   I'll look around and see if I have any other HObbyline freight cars, but no further luck so far.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbyline parts. If you've got one parts sprue, it would not be a real difficult task to cast copies. Unbuilt HObbyline kits still show up on eBay at reasonable prices, it might be worth it to pick one up just to get a set of masters. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbyline parts. I have not heard of a source for Hobbyline parts. HO Seeker http://www.hoseeker .org/hobbyline. html has scans of Hobbyline catalogs, Grandt Line offers AB brake sets that may be useful. There is a John English/Hobbyline Yahoo group whose members may have extra parts. Roger Aultman http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/JohnEnglis h-Hobbyline/ ?yguid=310579148 Hello to the Group. Long time lurker, first time poster. I am trying to build 6 Hobbytown gondolas but somehow over the last 25 years or so since I bought them the brake cylinders, triple valve and air tanks have disappeared. I would like to keep them as close to original as possible. Does any one know of a source for the parts. Thanks,Larry ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - Listen to 350+ music, sports, news radio stations - including songs for the holidays - FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8015	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/13/2008
Subject: Next projects.

Attachments : Due to the generosity of another member, I have two more projects to work on some may find of interest. A JC SilverSides 12 section pullman and a Blue-line baggage mail. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8016	From: fredsmodelrr	Date: 12/17/2008
Subject: woodland scenics plaster cloth

Has anyone noticed the lack of plaster in the stuff Woodland Scenics is producing? It now takes two or three layers to do what one did in the past. Fred

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8017	From: oahurailway	Date: 12/17/2008
Subject: Re: woodland scenics plaster cloth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "fredsmodelrr" <vickysart101@...> wrote: > > Has anyone noticed the lack of plaster in the stuff Woodland Scenics is > producing? It now takes two or three layers to do what one did in the > past. > Fred Plaster to Plastic.... Check out the Bragdon plastic scenery system at: www.bragdonent.com. It's extremely light weight, & whole rock sections can be made from their molds or yours, on the workbench & transfered to the layout. Coloring is as easy as plaster castings with the use of white artists "gesso" applied over the plastic casting first, then shaded with black powdered tempera & finally adding the acrylic color washes. I used the old metal window screen imbedded in the foam (an aerosol can of cheap insulating foam spread around will work) under the thin plastic rock casting, so just prior to the plastic hardening, the "rock" section can be bent to any shape. When did plaster ever allow us to do that! And, the castings are practically indestructable. Molding plastic & latex for making your own rock molds can also be obtained from "aeromarineproducts" on eBay. You won't be able to tell the finished castings from plaster ones other than the lack of weight! Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8018	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 12/17/2008
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Ambroid cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Ambroid kits You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Ambroid%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8019	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

I looked on hoseeker.net and could not find what I was looking for. I just got a package of Mantua loop couplers in today, and included with them was a bunch of brass uncoupling ramps for use with the Mantua couplers. What I need to know is, given how much I use loop couplers on my layout, how do I go about installing the uncoupling ramps properly? Any advice, or anyone who can point me to a diagram, will be greatly appreciated! -Steve Neubaum

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8020	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

The ones I had appeared designed to be portable not intended to be installed permamently.  They just layed on the ties of the fibre strip track, it did not look like they would work with the current flex track without modification.  Roger Aultman           ----- Original Message ----- From: railwaymodeler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:36 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps I looked on hoseeker.net and could not find what I was looking for. I just got a package of Mantua loop couplers in today, and included with them was a bunch of brass uncoupling ramps for use with the Mantua couplers. What I need to know is, given how much I use loop couplers on my layout, how do I go about installing the uncoupling ramps properly? Any advice, or anyone who can point me to a diagram, will be greatly appreciated! -Steve Neubaum

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8021	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

My layout is partially fibreboard tie track with brass rail, part snap track, and part flextrack. I am going to look into seeing if they might work by epoxying the uncoupler to any of those track types. I guess what I should do first, is lay them loose and see if equipment will pass over them before doing anything permanent. Would be nice if that worked, then I could do switching with loop coupler equipped trains. -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote: > > The ones I had appeared designed to be portable not intended to be installed permamently. They just layed on the ties of the fibre strip track, it did not look like they would work with the current flex track without modification. Roger Aultman > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: railwaymodeler > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:36 AM > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps > > > I looked on hoseeker.net and could not find what I was looking for. > > I just got a package of Mantua loop couplers in today, and included > with them was a bunch of brass uncoupling ramps for use with the > Mantua couplers. > > What I need to know is, given how much I use loop couplers on my > layout, how do I go about installing the uncoupling ramps properly? > > Any advice, or anyone who can point me to a diagram, will be greatly > appreciated! > > -Steve Neubaum >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8022	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

Steve, May I suggest using good old track nails to hold them in place. That way you would be able to remove and reposition the ramps. Once you epoxy them, well that will be where they will be for a long, long time. Also, I think (something you should NOT depend on) that the height is set to be correct with the ramp sitting on the track base, even with the bottom of the ties. If they are on the tops of the ties you may have to make some adjustments. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > My layout is partially fibreboard tie track with brass rail, part snap > track, and part flextrack. I am going to look into seeing if they > might work by epoxying the uncoupler to any of those track types. > > I guess what I should do first, is lay them loose and see if equipment > will pass over them before doing anything permanent. > > Would be nice if that worked, then I could do switching with loop > coupler equipped trains. > > -Steve Neubaum

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8023	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps > Steve, > > May I suggest using good old track nails to hold them in place. That > way you would be able to remove and reposition the ramps. Once you > epoxy them, well that will be where they will be for a long, long time. > > Also, I think (something you should NOT depend on) that the height is > set to be correct with the ramp sitting on the track base, even with > the bottom of the ties. If they are on the tops of the ties you may > have to make some adjustments. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" > <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: >> >> My layout is partially fibreboard tie track with brass rail, part snap >> track, and part flextrack. I am going to look into seeing if they >> might work by epoxying the uncoupler to any of those track types. >> >> I guess what I should do first, is lay them loose and see if equipment >> will pass over them before doing anything permanent. >> >> Would be nice if that worked, then I could do switching with loop >> coupler equipped trains. >> >> -Steve Neubaum I believe the center of the ramp actually needs to extend ABOVE the railhead. It has to be high enough to lift the hook out of the loop when there's slack, but not so high as to cause them to come apart when they pass over under tension. You're absolutely right about NOT gluing them down. If they are glued down, use contact cement or something that's removable. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8024	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

Warning! 1) I'm working from memory here (and many will say without the tools) 2) I never used Mantua couplers, but they were in common use when I started If the uncoupling ramps I'm thinking of & are Mantua, they are just smooth arches of metal (probably with holes at each end) They were spiked in place to create a slight arch. As the train was pulled over the ramp it would lift the pins coming down from the coupler. As long as tension was kept on the coupler the lower lip on the hook (it's slightly J (on it's side) wouldn't allow the cars to uncouple. If you did a bit of slack action (stop, reverse, forward) you'd uncouple the car. Does that look anythink like what you have? Willard :At 12:36 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote: I looked on hoseeker.net and could not find what I was looking for. I just got a package of Mantua loop couplers in today, and included with them was a bunch of brass uncoupling ramps for use with the Mantua couplers. What I need to know is, given how much I use loop couplers on my layout, how do I go about installing the uncoupling ramps properly? Any advice, or anyone who can point me to a diagram, will be greatly appreciated! -Steve Neubaum

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8025	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

the Mantua ramps were designed to work as drop-ins on Code 100 flex track. Pulling across them should work OK--they need slack to uncouple. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps > Steve, > > May I suggest using good old track nails to hold them in place. That >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8026	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

Don, I was referring to the level at which the ends of the ramp were fastened to the track. The concern I had with the ends atop the ties involved the ramps arch being higher than intended and causing possible problems with lifting the cars when pulling a train over the ramp. As with all mechanical contact style ramps if the ramp was too low it wouldn't uncouple the cars and too high would cause derailments and other such maladies. I ended up sticking with the 0-5-0 method of coupling and uncoupling (using dummy couplers) until Kadee came out with their all conquering magnetic system. Once I ended up with my rather limited-in-scope Timesaver game being the only place I operate I cut the pins off my Kadee's and use extended round toothpicks for uncoupling. Presently I am changing over to Sergent Engineering couplers. I love the realistic appearance and for the Timesaver they work just fine. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 3:58 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps > > > > Steve, > > > > May I suggest using good old track nails to hold them in place. That > > way you would be able to remove and reposition the ramps. Once you > > epoxy them, well that will be where they will be for a long, long time. > > > > Also, I think (something you should NOT depend on) that the height is > > set to be correct with the ramp sitting on the track base, even with > > the bottom of the ties. If they are on the tops of the ties you may > > have to make some adjustments. > > > > John Hagen > > > > I believe the center of the ramp actually needs to extend ABOVE the > railhead. It has to be high enough to lift the hook out of the loop when > there's slack, but not so high as to cause them to come apart when they pass > over under tension. > > You're absolutely right about NOT gluing them down. If they are glued down, > use contact cement or something that's removable. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8027	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/19/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 10:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps > Don, > > I was referring to the level at which the ends of the ramp were > fastened to the track. The concern I had with the ends atop the ties > involved the ramps arch being higher than intended and causing > possible problems with lifting the cars when pulling a train over the > ramp. > > As with all mechanical contact style ramps if the ramp was too low it > wouldn't uncouple the cars and too high would cause derailments and > other such maladies. I ended up sticking with the 0-5-0 method of > coupling and uncoupling (using dummy couplers) until Kadee came out > with their all conquering magnetic system. > > Once I ended up with my rather limited-in-scope Timesaver game being > the only place I operate I cut the pins off my Kadee's and use > extended round toothpicks for uncoupling. Presently I am changing > over to Sergent Engineering couplers. I love the realistic appearance > and for the Timesaver they work just fine. > > John Hagen I see what you're saying, if the ramp was intended for a particular brand of track's tie spacing. I would guess they were most likely sized to fit either Atlas snap-track or fibre tie flex track with code 100 rail which is what most people used in the era (although I had Tru-scale milled roadbe with spiked rail. When a friend of my Dad's who was leaving the hobby found out he was buying me an Athearn HO set for Christmas, he gave us a bunch of it. That stuff is whole 'nother thread.) I also gave up on uncoupling ramps, just because they're never where you want them (besides being unprototypical). I too do gladhandectomies on all my couplers. I flatten one end of a long wood swizzlestick, and use that to uncouple. Stick the flattened end between the knuckles, give it a little twist and bingo. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8028	From: Larry	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

There is a brochure on these couplers on the bottom of the Mantua information page. It does list the ramp. http://www.hoseeker.org/mantuainformation/mantuauncouplersinst1953.jp g Larry --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 10:08 PM > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps > > > > Don, > > > > I was referring to the level at which the ends of the ramp were > > fastened to the track. The concern I had with the ends atop the ties > > involved the ramps arch being higher than intended and causing > > possible problems with lifting the cars when pulling a train over the > > ramp. > > > > As with all mechanical contact style ramps if the ramp was too low it > > wouldn't uncouple the cars and too high would cause derailments and > > other such maladies. I ended up sticking with the 0-5-0 method of > > coupling and uncoupling (using dummy couplers) until Kadee came out > > with their all conquering magnetic system. > > > > Once I ended up with my rather limited-in-scope Timesaver game being > > the only place I operate I cut the pins off my Kadee's and use > > extended round toothpicks for uncoupling. Presently I am changing > > over to Sergent Engineering couplers. I love the realistic appearance > > and for the Timesaver they work just fine. > > > > John Hagen > > I see what you're saying, if the ramp was intended for a particular brand of > track's tie spacing. I would guess they were most likely sized to fit > either Atlas snap-track or fibre tie flex track with code 100 rail which is > what most people used in the era (although I had Tru-scale milled roadbe > with spiked rail. When a friend of my Dad's who was leaving the hobby found > out he was buying me an Athearn HO set for Christmas, he gave us a bunch of > it. That stuff is whole 'nother thread.) > > I also gave up on uncoupling ramps, just because they're never where you > want them (besides being unprototypical). > > I too do gladhandectomies on all my couplers. I flatten one end of a long > wood swizzlestick, and use that to uncouple. Stick the flattened end > between the knuckles, give it a little twist and bingo. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8029	From: Maynard Keith Franklin	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

In the first phase of my HO railroading back in the late 40's and early 50's, my dad & I standardized on Mantua couplers and truscale track with the milled wood ties, with brass rail spiked down. The Mantua uncoupling ramps, as I recall, were a narrow zamac metal block frame with black fiberboard ends riveted(?)on each end with slots in the ends. The beryllium copper ramp was slipped into the slots, and did stand up higher than the railhead, to raise the hooks as has been described in a previous post. We never nailed the ramps down, just laid them between the rails where they needed to be. I also found that the beryllium copper in the ramps was a really neat source for small metal parts, when I couldn't find that kind of stuff 60+ years ago. I'd have to poke in my unpacked boxes of stuff to try to find an old ramp, or what is left of one, now. MKF N91472@... --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <seekingho@...> wrote: > > There is a brochure on these couplers on the bottom of the Mantua > information page. It does list the ramp. > http://www.hoseeker.org/mantuainformation/mantuauncouplersinst1953.jp > g > Larry >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8030	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

About half the ramps I have, have zamak bottoms with Mantua cast in them, the others are fibre and brass. I guess I won't mount these as I had thought I would. Basicaly I have a few reasons I still use loop couplers They are true vintage couplers, and nothing says vintage HO hardware like loop couplers They stay coupled better than anything else I can think of Height from the railhead is not as important as a Kadee or even X2F Referencing the above, when my JC Models or Walthers coaches hit grades or 22" curves, there is no binding or uncoupling. Loops have been a cure-all for a lot of problems with coupling vintage HO, some made as early as the late '30s. I have a back-in passenger terminal, and I may just use these on the stub tracks there so I can uncouple the locomotive from the coaches easier. Maybe I had pie in the sky dreams of full automation, where I can run my pike just like the real ones, without ever touching cars or using my most reliable switcher, the 0-5-0 (Haven't heard that term in a while save for here!). Thanks to all for helpful infomation! This group is great for sharing knowledge! -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Maynard Keith Franklin" <N91472@...> wrote: > > In the first phase of my HO railroading back in the late 40's and early > 50's, my dad & I standardized on Mantua couplers and truscale track > with the milled wood ties, with brass rail spiked down. > > The Mantua uncoupling ramps, as I recall, were a narrow zamac metal > block frame with black fiberboard ends riveted(?)on each end with slots > in the ends. The beryllium copper ramp was slipped into the slots, and > did stand up higher than the railhead, to raise the hooks as has been > described in a previous post. We never nailed the ramps down, just > laid them between the rails where they needed to be. > > I also found that the beryllium copper in the ramps was a really neat > source for small metal parts, when I couldn't find that kind of stuff > 60+ years ago. > > I'd have to poke in my unpacked boxes of stuff to try to find an old > ramp, or what is left of one, now. > > MKF > N91472@... > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <seekingho@> wrote: > > > > There is a brochure on these couplers on the bottom of the Mantua > > information page. It does list the ramp. > > http://www.hoseeker.org/mantuainformation/mantuauncouplersinst1953.jp > > g > > Larry > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8031	From: Tom	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

Hello, now that winter is upon us and its tough to strip paint inside I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to use to strip paint from some brass pieces inside that will not smell up the house. Thanks for any ideas, Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8032	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps

Actually, Mantua couplers are quite height sensitive as the knife-edge of the loop has to slide over (or under) the mating coupler. (You can lift an entire train off the rails--) gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 8:56 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Loop Uncoupler Ramps > > Height from the railhead is not as important as a Kadee or even X2F > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8033	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

--- On Sat, 12/20/08, Tom <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: > Hello, now that winter is upon us and its tough to strip > paint inside I > was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to > use to strip > paint from some brass pieces inside that will not smell up > the house. Brake Fluid? -- Rick Jones

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8034	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

As has already been pointed out I also find brake fluid very good even on plastic. Yet there are some types of paint it will not take off.                 Let me suggest a product I use on these tough paints but not for plastic. It is called   Citristrip     Safer Paint and Varnish Stripping Gel.   Safe for indoor use   No harsh fumes and strips multiple layers. It's made by W M Barr &Co. Inc  Memphis Tn 38113   www.citristrip.com . You still need covering  for your hands but you can use it inside with no sme. It actually smells like oranges. It should clean your brass up if brake fluid doesn't work.                                                            Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 12:36 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink Hello, now that winter is upon us and its tough to strip paint inside I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to use to strip paint from some brass pieces inside that will not smell up the house. Thanks for any ideas, Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8035	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

I like 3M "Safest Stripper"--it is a white water-soluble gel. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8036	From: Ron Plyler	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: > > --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Tom <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: > > Hello, now that winter is upon us and its tough to strip > > paint inside I > > was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to > > use to strip > > paint from some brass pieces inside that will not smell up > > the house. > > Brake Fluid? > > -- > > Rick Jones > Scalecoat paint stripper/remover for plastics is very effective and not toxic. Walthers number 640-10568

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8037	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

I tried brake fluid .... did NOT work. I left the shell in for over a week ..... soaking and brushing it .... paint did not come off .... but it did leave this unusual residue on the shell that you can still feel through three coats of paint and one coat of dull coat. Never again.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Plyler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: > > --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Tom <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: > > Hello, now that winter is upon us and its tough to strip > > paint inside I > > was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to > > use to strip > > paint from some brass pieces inside that will not smell up > > the house.  > >    Brake Fluid? > > -- > >             Rick Jones >   Scalecoat paint stripper/remover for plastics is very effective and not toxic.  Walthers number 640-10568 ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8038	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

Hi Steve,   Brake fluid does work, just not on really old paint jobs, I did a JC silversides coach a couple of years ago, the paint on the sides and ends had been dry for over 40 years, and maybe even longer than that, the brake fluid didn't work for me either, and that was for the very first time in my experience, I went ahead and wore out a wire wheel on my dremel and simply buffed the paint off.   As for what Rick is trying to strip paint off of, that of course wouldn't be recommended, however, brass should hold up okay to any standard stripper,as for one that doesn't stink and can be used indoors, Scalecoat makes a product called "Unpaint"...........:o)   Gary W   Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:42:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink I tried brake fluid .... did NOT work. I left the shell in for over a week ..... soaking and brushing it .... paint did not come off .... but it did leave this unusual residue on the shell that you can still feel through three coats of paint and one coat of dull coat. Never again.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Plyler To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@.. .> wrote: > > --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Tom <jodanjackkayla@ ...> wrote: > > Hello, now that winter is upon us and its tough to strip > > paint inside I > > was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to > > use to strip > > paint from some brass pieces inside that will not smell up > > the house.  > >    Brake Fluid? > > -- > >             Rick Jones >   Scalecoat paint stripper/remover for plastics is very effective and not toxic.  Walthers number 640-10568 ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO- digest@yahoogrou ps.com     mailto:vintageHO- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8039	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

I have had occasions when the lettering was highly resistant to strippers--while the base coat came right off.  Particularly the original Atlas O Scale F-9 and wide vision caboose--the green would come right off, buyer the white hung on-----  gj ----- Original Message ----- From: My-Yahoo-Groups To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink I tried brake fluid .... did NOT work. I left the shell in for over a week ..... soaking and brushing it .... paint did not come off .... but it did leave this unusual residue on the shell that you can still feel through three coats of paint and one coat of dull coat. Never again.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Plyler To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote: > > --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Tom <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote: > > Hello, now that winter is upon us and its tough to strip > > paint inside I > > was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what to > > use to strip > > paint from some brass pieces inside that will not smell up > > the house.  > >    Brake Fluid? > > -- > >             Rick Jones >   Scalecoat paint stripper/remover for plastics is very effective and not toxic.  Walthers number 640-10568 ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date: 12/19/2008 10:09 AM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8040	From: Thomas Parsons	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

Where can you get it?  Tom Parsons --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 5:02 PM I like 3M "Safest Stripper"--it is a white water-soluble gel. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ yahoo.com> Subject: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8041	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 12/20/2008
Subject: I Got A New Train Set For Christmas

And here it is, enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb17tITO-EI   Gary W   Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8042	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

I'm still using a supply I bought several years ago--at that time I bought it at KMart--but it is made by the big 3M co.  Shouldn't be too hard to find.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Parsons To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink   Where can you get it?  Tom Parsons --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 5:02 PM I like 3M "Safest Stripper"--it is a white water-soluble gel. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ yahoo.com> Subject: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20/2008 2:34 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8043	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

It should be in both Home Depot or Lowes in the paint dept.  Or any paint department or store for that matter.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Parsons Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink     Where can you get it?  Tom Parsons --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 5:02 PM I like 3M "Safest Stripper"--it is a white water-soluble gel. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ yahoo.com> Subject: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8044	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

Is it safe to use on plastic?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 8:37 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink It should be in both Home Depot or Lowes in the paint dept.  Or any paint department or store for that matter.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Parsons Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink     Where can you get it?  Tom Parsons --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 5:02 PM I like 3M "Safest Stripper"--it is a white water-soluble gel. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ yahoo.com> Subject: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8045	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

Hands down, Scalecoat paint remover is the way to go. It has never failed me, does not smell, at least to me. and it is meant for use on models. I keep it in a Rubbermaid type container and used the last batch continuously for several years. Rinses of with water. Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8046	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: latest completed project

Attachments :                Thought some might like to see the latest engine I rebuilt for my vintage collection. This is the first version (O ring driven) Penn Line Whitcomb D-1. It was in pieces and needed all new handrail plus some missing detail. I probably won't be painting this since it is for my collection and will be put on a shelf for viewing.. I have a D-2 (gear driven version) that is painted black and you can't see the detail very good. This D-1's body has slightly different detail then the D-2 version. A good friend actually saw these bodies being made. The owners of PL had a die that was hinged and could be clamped to pour one engine body at a time. This was done in the house of one of the owners. They melted the lead on a kitchen stove and poured it into the mold. The smell and smoke from what they used as a mold release didn't make the neighbors happy.                Chuck, would you please pick out the best picture and add it to my album.        Happy Holidays to all.    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.                                                                                                                              Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8047	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: latest completed project

OK, I picked the front shot and it is in your album.  Looks good.   Happy Holidays to all, also.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:03 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] latest completed project                  Thought some might like to see the latest engine I rebuilt for my vintage collection. This is the first version (O ring driven) Penn Line Whitcomb D-1. It was in pieces and needed all new handrail plus some missing detail. I probably won't be painting this since it is for my collection and will be put on a shelf for viewing.. I have a D-2 (gear driven version) that is painted black and you can't see the detail very good. This D-1's body has slightly different detail then the D-2 version. A good friend actually saw these bodies being made. The owners of PL had a die that was hinged and could be clamped to pour one engine body at a time. This was done in the house of one of the owners. They melted the lead on a kitchen stove and poured it into the mold. The smell and smoke from what they used as a mold release didn't make the neighbors happy.                Chuck, would you please pick out the best picture and add it to my album.        Happy Holidays to all.    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.                                                                                                                              Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8048	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: better picture

Attachments :      Chuck H,                        I'm sending a better picture I think. The first full side view picture made it look like front railing crooked. Yet the camera close ups were good enough to show that the built up of glue on the handrail post were not cleaned because they had not set properly. This might be a better pic for the album.                                                                                                        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8049	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

That's why I recommended it--on brass I use lacquer thinner.  But on plastic you need something like this--probably where they came up with the name--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: My-Yahoo-Groups To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink Is it safe to use on plastic?   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 8:37 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink It should be in both Home Depot or Lowes in the paint dept.  Or any paint department or store for that matter.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Parsons Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink     Where can you get it?  Tom Parsons --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 5:02 PM I like 3M "Safest Stripper"--it is a white water-soluble gel. gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ yahoo.com> Subject: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink >   No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20/2008 2:34 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8050	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: Re: better picture

Jim, Take a look and tell me which you prefer.  They are both on the site now.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:11 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] better picture        Chuck H,                        I'm sending a better picture I think. The first full side view picture made it look like front railing crooked. Yet the camera close ups were good enough to show that the built up of glue on the handrail post were not cleaned because they had not set properly. This might be a better pic for the album.                                                                                                        Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8051	From: Tom	Date: 12/21/2008
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink

Gentlemen, Thakns for all of the good info on the paint strippers. I thinnk I will try the 3m and see how it does, I will let you know. I have 3 vintage brass Mantua goats to strip and restore. Happy holidays to everyone. Tom --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > That's why I recommended it--on brass I use lacquer thinner. But on plastic you need something like this--probably where they came up with the name--gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: My-Yahoo-Groups > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 8:02 AM > Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink > > > Is it safe to use on plastic? > > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck Higdon > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 8:37 AM > Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink > > > It should be in both Home Depot or Lowes in the paint dept. Or any paint department or store for that matter. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Parsons > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:47 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink > > > > Where can you get it? Tom Parsons > > --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 5:02 PM > > I like 3M "Safest Stripper"--it is a white water-soluble gel. gj > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ yahoo.com> > Subject: [vintageHO] Indoor paint stripper that does not stink > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20/2008 2:34 PM >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8052	From: Mike	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Illinois Valley Division Meet - January 11, 2009

The next NMRA - MWR - Illinois Valley Division Meet will be held at the Crowne Plaza Hotel (Exit 94 on I-55) in Springfield, IL on January 11, 2009. The doors will open at 10 am for a swap meet. Tables are only $5. The official meet will begin at 1:30 pm. For more information, contact Mike Yurgec at (217) 530-2315 or by email at mainlinerail@....

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8053	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: Illinois Valley Division Meet - January 11, 2009

Message was forwarded to Train_Shows and RailfanEvents Yahoo Groups.   Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:04 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Illinois Valley Division Meet - January 11, 2009 The next NMRA - MWR - Illinois Valley Division Meet will be held at the Crowne Plaza Hotel (Exit 94 on I-55) in Springfield, IL on January 11, 2009.  The doors will open at 10 am for a swap meet.  Tables are only $5. The official meet will begin at 1:30 pm. For more information, contact Mike Yurgec at (217) 530-2315 or by email at mainlinerail@.... ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8054	From: oljoeoh	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: better picture

interesting pics..... My D-2 has the motor orientation 180 degrees from your pic. The spur gears were clearly visible in the cab. The end of the DC-60 in your pic that is visible in the door of the cab was replaced by the door casting in the cab. I have 2 D-2's, Neither of mine have the brass underpinning like yours. My long gone original D-2 did not have wheel bearings for the the axles and because of heavy running eventually wore the zamak enough to render the D-2 inoperable. The two I now have are both candidates for running on the little "silver dollar" layout under glass that graced the desk of one of the PL execs. Will probably also make a copy of the "famed" hat brim "Athearn Hustler" that Irv Athearn did when he saw the PL "silver-dollar" D-2. The wheelbase on the Hustler was much longer on the Athearn and would never have been able to use a silver dollar as the inside rail. I always appreciated the unique "sewing machine" noises made by the D-2 and the waddle it did as it was running (an early sign of the wear in the zamak for the axles. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Chuck H, > I'm sending a better picture I think. The first full side view picture made it look like front railing crooked. Yet the camera close ups were good enough to show that the built up of glue on the handrail post were not cleaned because they had not set properly. This might be a better pic for the album. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8055	From: Larry Stevenson	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Happy Holidays

Attachments : Happy Holidays to everyone at the Vintage HO Forum.  Best Wishes to Don for keeping this great forum running and for another successful year.   Larry   Don don't ban me for being off topic, I used a vintage Varney engine in the picture...lol

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8056	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: better picture

Hi Joe,   I do believe it was the Busy Bee that went around the hat. I remember seeing a picture of it someone posted a while back. You see, I had picked a Bee up a couple of years ago and did not know what it was. I posted a question either here or on the VintageHO site (most likely both) and that is how I found out.   As for the D-2, I have some pictures posted either here or on the VintageHO site. I have an entire folder dedicated to the comparison between the two versions. I even have scans of the instructions.   Great little engine.. One of my favorite!  I wonder if mantua bearings would have fit those axels once room was made in the casting of yours?   Sean --- On Mon, 12/22/08, oljoeoh <oljoe@...> wrote: From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: better picture To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 8:39 AM interesting pics..... My D-2 has the motor orientation 180 degrees from your pic. The spur gears were clearly visible in the cab. The end of the DC-60 in your pic that is visible in the door of the cab was replaced by the door casting in the cab. I have 2 D-2's, Neither of mine have the brass underpinning like yours. My long gone original D-2 did not have wheel bearings for the the axles and because of heavy running eventually wore the zamak enough to render the D-2 inoperable. The two I now have are both candidates for running on the little "silver dollar" layout under glass that graced the desk of one of the PL execs. Will probably also make a copy of the "famed" hat brim "Athearn Hustler" that Irv Athearn did when he saw the PL "silver-dollar" D-2. The wheelbase on the Hustler was much longer on the Athearn and would never have been able to use a silver dollar as the inside rail. I always appreciated the unique "sewing machine" noises made by the D-2 and the waddle it did as it was running (an early sign of the wear in the zamak for the axles. Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Chuck H, > I'm sending a better picture I think. The first full side view picture made it look like front railing crooked. Yet the camera close ups were good enough to show that the built up of glue on the handrail post were not cleaned because they had not set properly. This might be a better pic for the album. > Jim >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8057	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: PL Whitcomb D1 vs. D2

Attachments : Hi Joe,        I'm sending these pictures of the two types of PL Whitcomb engines hoping they are good enough to see the differences. On the pictures the D-1 (unpainted ) O ring drive is on the right, the D-2 (painted black) gear driven is on the left.     You are right that the D-2 gear driven Whitcomb has the motor rotated 180 degrees from the D-1 type. You will see the differences in both including body changes (I hope). The D-1 O ring drive style has electrical pickup from both sides with isolated brass fingers (brake shoes) on the drivers that have brass connections leading up to each side of the motor for pickup to each brush. The D-2 has insulated drivers on one side that allows pickup that is much like the Mantua 0-4-0t and 0-6-0t engines in that one side is the motor and the other pickup is from little isolated fingers on the insulated driver side that goes to the other motor brush.      Although the same engine by the same company there are differences in each. even detail where the D-1 has added detail and the D-2 has cast on detail on top of the hood.         Hope I'm explaining this half decent and the pictures help.                                                                     Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8058	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: PL Whitcomb D1 vs. D2

Hi Guys..   Here at work steeling a minute...   Here is the folder I mentioned earlier showing all the whitcomb pics I have as well...   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1023422019/pic/list   Sean   --- On Mon, 12/22/08, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote: From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> Subject: [vintageHO] PL Whitcomb D1 vs. D2 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 1:09 PM Hi Joe,        I'm sending these pictures of the two types of PL Whitcomb engines hoping they are good enough to see the differences. On the pictures the D-1 (unpainted ) O ring drive is on the right, the D-2 (painted black) gear driven is on the left.     You are right that the D-2 gear driven Whitcomb has the motor rotated 180 degrees from the D-1 type. You will see the differences in both including body changes (I hope). The D-1 O ring drive style has electrical pickup from both sides with isolated brass fingers (brake shoes) on the drivers that have brass connections leading up to each side of the motor for pickup to each brush. The D-2 has insulated drivers on one side that allows pickup that is much like the Mantua 0-4-0t and 0-6-0t engines in that one side is the motor and the other pickup is from little isolated fingers on the insulated driver side that goes to the other motor brush.      Although the same engine by the same company there are differences in each. even detail where the D-1 has added detail and the D-2 has cast on detail on top of the hood.         Hope I'm explaining this half decent and the pictures help.                                                                     Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8059	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/22/2008
Subject: Re: [on3] Max Gray 4-4-0?

I dug mine out. If you'll indulge me, I will quote the description packed with it. "FED up with high brass prices? Come down to low prices and quality! "You've heard of Junk Art? Now Here's Junk Brass! (Photos were here) "The first in our DISASTER SERIES. Built especially to meet the demanding requirements of modelers complaining about the rapidly increasing cost of brass models. "Virtually nothing has been spared to meet their rigorous demands for yesterday's prices. In fact, there's hardly any quality at all in this unusual model. "The first model to accurately depict years of hard service and neglect. Use it for wreck scenes. Use it off trucks as a wayside structure (they're always pretty shot anyway). Use it in train service to depict a railroad on its last leg, awaiting the scrapper! Use it on the rip track or shoved off into the weeds for character. Just look at the photographs if you don't believe all these opportunities. " This side door, two truck brass, HO scale caboose comes to you in living Orange. Guaranteed to require post delivery adjustments by the purchaser's master mechanic. Couplers should be glued in place [the coupler mount plates are not necessarily (1) on the model, (2) securely fastened to the model and/or (3) properly positioned].Trucks are not included so that the purchaser can select his own favorite type. Wood beam arch bar is appropriate. "We're not kiddin', we've really got this junk - - - and it can be yours for only $4.50 less trucks, couplers, and quality. "------------------SUCH A DEAL! "Far East Distributors brand "NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH HIGH QUALITY "Box 423 Seattle, Washington 98111" _______________________________________ the above is a quote of the sheet included with the FED caboose. Who says we can't have a little fun? gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boone Morrison" <boone@...> To: <on3@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [on3] Max Gray 4-4-0? > gj: > > Wow, most interesting. I only know the name from the 4-4-0 and Mogul > (in > HOn3 and On30) they brought in during the 1970s, or so I was told. > These > are all brass and ready-made for reworking into "proper" models. The > 4-4-0 > is nearly perfect in dimensions for a Baldwin 8-18C....and the Mogul > is very > close to a Baldwin 8-22D, such as used on NPC and SPC.... > > I have reworked three of the HOn3 4-4-0, and (so far) one in On3. I > got two more 4-4-0 > stashed, as well as the Mogul - all destined for rebuild as I get to > them. > > Of course, if PSC/MMI come through with their announced 4-4-0 in On3, > On30 and > HOn3, I won't have to do the rebuilds on those. Hopefully there will > be sufficient > reservations placed (through PSC dealers) that the project will > indeed move forward. > > See the article Jim Wilke and I did for the new "08 On30 > Annual" (out now) on > the Baldwin 8-18C for details on the proposed PSC?MMI project, as > well as a good > overview of the 8-18C and where it ran. > > Aloha, Boone > > > > > > On Dec 22, 2008, at 10:06 AM, Glenn476 wrote: > >> The story I heard about the "FED" label was that it was an "alias" >> used to >> "get rid of" the absolutely terrible V&T side-door cabooses--the >> first known >> rolling stock made in Korea. They were SO BAD--not a right-angle >> joint on >> any, and many joints not even complete--they were "factory painted" >> apparently by dunking in a bucket of orange house paint--and >> "signed by the >> artist" with a thumb print in the wet paint. >> >> They were sold under the FED label as NWSL didn't want to be >> associated with >> them (although the return address was the same PO Box)--at about >> $5. They >> eventually became a "cult" item--and it is rate to see one for at >> least ten >> times that price. I did see one once that someone had "fixed"--must >> have >> completely rebuilt it--could barely recognize it. >> >> gj >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Boone Morrison" <boone@...> >> To: <on3@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [on3] Max Gray 4-4-0? >> >> > Lee: >> > >> > To my knowledge Far East Distributors was a lable of NWSL...used it >> > on the On3 "Spartans" >> > as well as the HOn3 "Spartans". I can say this for sure because I >> > got two 4-4-0 and a Mogul >> > (in On3) in their original boxes and that is how they are >> identified. >> > >> > I once had a Max Grey, but sold it because it is a bit oversize and >> > the flanges were so large >> > I could not get it to run on Code 70 rail. >> > >> > Aloha, Boone >> > >> > >> > >> > On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:33 PM, bagustaf@... wrote: >> > >> >> Boone, et?al: >> >> >> >> I encourage you to take a look at the 4-4-0 listed as a Far East >> >> Distributors model on the Caboose Hobbies website as it is >> >> unpainted and the drivers and frame appear to identify it as a Max >> >> Grey model. I'm curious to solicit other opinions.?Thanks in >> advance. >> >> >> >> Lee Gustafson? >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Boone Morrison <boone@...> >> >> To: on3@yahoogroups.com >> >> Sent: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 1:39 pm >> >> Subject: Re: [on3] Max Gray 4-4-0? >> >> >> >> Lee, et al: >> >> >> >> The "Far East Distributors" model mentioned is an NWSL Spartan, >> not a >> >> Max Grey. >> >> >> >> In my opinion, the FED model is a better starting point for a >> quality >> >> rebuild. I have >> >> done a 4-4-0 and am at work on their Mogul as well. All brass, lots >> >> of PSC parts >> >> available, add a Faulhauber gearhead motor and a Tsunami and >> paint it >> >> up...you got >> >> a great engine. >> >> >> >> Aloha, Boone >> >> >> >> On Dec 20, 2008, at 3:33 PM, bagustaf@... wrote: >> >> >> >> > I just checked Caboose Hobbies website and they still have the >> Max >> >> > Gray 4-4-0, painted, price listed $595.?They also have what is >> >> > listed as a Far East Distributors models but, it looks like >> another >> >> > Max Gray 4-4-0 unpainted, remotored with a can motor.?FWIW >> >> > >> >> > Lee Gustafson >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: bagustaf@... >> >> > To: on3@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Sent: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 6:19 pm >> >> > Subject: Re: [on3] Max Gray 4-4-0? >> >> > >> >> > Caboose Hobbies has/had one on their On3 brass consignment >> website. >> >> > >> >> > Lee Gustafson >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Scott <scalzia@...> >> >> > To: on3@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Sent: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 3:41 pm >> >> > Subject: [on3] Max Gray 4-4-0? >> >> > >> >> > Hello, >> >> > >> >> > I'm looking for an On3 4-4-0 by Max Gray. Anyone have one they >> are >> >> > willing to part with? >> >> > >> >> > Please contact scalzia@... (scalzia at yahoo.com) with >> >> condition >> >> > and price. >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > >> >> > Scott >> >> > >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------ >> > >> > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at: >> > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos >> > >> > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1861 - Release Date: >> 12/22/2008 >> 11:23 AM >> >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > Remember, additional On3 photos and files can now be found at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/On3photos > > ThanksYahoo! Groups Links > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1861 - Release Date: 12/22/2008 11:23 AM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8060	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Disater caboose

Hi Glenn, any chance to get a scan or copy of this sheet? Got mine (caboose) without sheet or anything else... Have the review that appeared in RMC in 1970 on file, may send to anybody who is interested. Also some pictures of the actual thing. Dont want to send it to the list as this are fairly large files. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8061	From: Bill DeFoe	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: Disater caboose

I remember seeing one of these cabooses when they were first released. I was told by "Bud" Charles of A. B. Charles Hobby Shop that it was one of the first pieces of brass manufactured in Korea. It was supposed to be a legitimate model but the craftmanship was so bad that the distributer had no choice but to paint them orange a sell them as a joke. It was REALLY bad! The corners were crooked with big gaps in the solder joints. Bill DeFoe --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > Hi Glenn, > any chance to get a scan or copy of this sheet? Got mine (caboose) > without sheet or anything else... > > Have the review that appeared in RMC in 1970 on file, may send to > anybody who is interested. Also some pictures of the actual thing. Dont > want to send it to the list as this are fairly large files. > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8062	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: [Fwd: Here is an update from the new owners of NWSL]

Attachments : Just passing this along from yet another site. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 _____ From: illinois-central-model@yahoogroups.com [mailto:illinois-central-model@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Strom Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 3:13 AM To: illinois-central-model@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][illinois-central-model] [Fwd: Here is an update from the new owners of NWSL] Here is an update from the new owners of NWSL forwarded from another list... ----------------------- Hello everyone, I'm Dave Rygmyr and my wife Lynda and I are the new owners of NorthWest Short Line. For those that don't know us, NWSL started in 1959 and founder Fred "Raoul" Martin was the guy that pioneered the importing of brass locomotives, first from Japan and then Korea, where the majority of what's left of the brass imports are still made. As others moved in to that business, NWSL moved out and started manufacturing parts; their first product was an improved coupling system for connecting steam lokies to their tenders. Over the years NWSL evolved into the leading supplier of gears, wheels, axles, gearboxes, motors, and other things. Most everything is made in house, originally in Seattle and now in Hamilton, Montana (about an hour south of Missoula and about 12 miles south of Precision Scale Company.) We also make a line of tools. We do import a few things, but the vast majority of what we do is in-house. We have gear hobbers, collet lathes, turret lathes, three injection molding machines, and a bunch of other stuff. We employ 3 full time people in the machine shop alone. We've owned NWSL for about 90 days now, and those of you familiar with NWSL and its product line can probably relate when I tell you that picking up NWSL and getting everything up and going is not unlike having a grand piano dropped on you from 3 stories up. Some of you might know us from our Evergreen Hill Design kits or as Oso Publishing, but believe me NWSL has completely overshadowed most of that. (Yes, we are still working on the Shay book. No, I do not have a date or any other details.) By and large, most things are back on line. A problem area for the moment is motors; for a very long time NWSL used Sagami motors from Japan and for good reason. However, Mr. Sagami retired, his successors dropped the ball, and to make a long story short we don't buy Sagami motors anymore. Instead, we're working with other manufacturers; all NWSL motors are made to our specs for optimal performance in model railroads. We're getting close, and the last batch of samples I saw are better than any Sagami I have on the shelf now. All are most definitely DCC compatible; in fact we're keeping a close eye on amp draw at both no-load and stall to keep those expensive decoders from turning into puffs of smoke. The other thing we're trying to work on, and you've already seen some blips on this list about it, is keeping up with the latest locomotives and providing solutions where needed to make up for any weak spots or problem areas. Manufacturers do not send us samples, although ironically they'll gladly give out our phone number to those seeking spare parts because their manufacturing runs do not always include spare parts. To give you a current example, a customer sent in a Bachmann HO Shay. Nice little engine, and kudos to Bachmann for making it operate like the prototype, but the entire geartrain along the drive side of the locomotive uses plastic gears. They work, but they're somewhat frail and it's probably just a question of time before they break. So, we're looking into making metal replacements. I can't say yet whether or not we'll actually produce them; yes we can make them but if the resulting retail price seems too high then we run the risk of pitchforks and torches coming up our driveway. Another thing we're doing is converting all of our wheelsets to nickel silver. Some of you are probably painfully aware that if the nickel plating starts wearing or flaking off brass wheels, the decoder in that model has hell to pay. We're out of raw material for the moment (we have to get it outside the US; the last batch came from Germany) but give us a month or two and we'll have a good selection ready to go. Sorry for the long-winded email but I wanted to say all this in one shot. NWSL is on the list and is listening and we'll do what we can. If there are problems with newer locomotives we don't hear about it until our customers tell us, so we welcome any heads-up issues that arise. We're still backed up with Seattle's back orders, but we're making headway. Meanwhile, we look forward to working with you. Oh, and yes we're brutally aware that both the website and catalog need a lot of work, but that's going to have to wait a while as well. Dave Rygmyr NorthWest Short Line (www.nwsl.com) Oso Publishing & Evergreen Hill Designs (www.osorail. com)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8063	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: Disater caboose

I don't do scans--but if you (or anyone else) will send me an SSAE I'll mail you a copy. Glenn Joesten 3825 Pruett Drive Yreka, CA 96097 When in 1970 RMC did it appear? I have RMC back then. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Disater caboose > Hi Glenn, > any chance to get a scan or copy of this sheet? Got mine (caboose) > without sheet or anything else... > > Have the review that appeared in RMC in 1970 on file, may send to > anybody who is interested. Also some pictures of the actual thing. Dont > want to send it to the list as this are fairly large files. > > Gerold > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1862 - Release Date: 12/23/2008 12:08 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8064	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: JC Silversides

Attachments : A week or two ago I posted a picture of an unbuilt JC Silversides HO-12 12 section Pullman. This is what it looks like tonight. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8065	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides

Very nice, Don. Are those older Walthers trucks underneath the car? I have a few of the same type of car (12 section Pullmans) but I put Central Valley trucks on them. Plus mine have the wide Mantua loop couplers. -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > A week or two ago I posted a picture of an unbuilt JC Silversides HO-12 12 > section Pullman. This is what it looks like tonight. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8066	From: Roger Aultman	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides

A week or two ago I posted a picture of an unbuilt JC Silversides HO-12 12 section Pullman. This is what it looks like tonight. Don Another neat assembly job. Roger Aultman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8067	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides

Danke. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] JC Silversides > > > > A week or two ago I posted a picture of an unbuilt JC Silversides HO-12 12 > section Pullman. This is what it looks like tonight. > > Don > > Another neat assembly job. Roger Aultman > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8068	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/23/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides

----- Original Message ----- From: "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 10:03 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: JC Silversides > Very nice, Don. > > Are those older Walthers trucks underneath the car? > > I have a few of the same type of car (12 section Pullmans) but I put > Central Valley trucks on them. Plus mine have the wide Mantua loop > couplers. > > -Steve Neubaum I'm not sure what they are. They're heavy die cast trucks, they're that distinctive PRR style with the unusually long equalizer on top, and no lower members. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8069	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: Disaster caboose

There is one at eBay just now: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=170289313190 Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8070	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides

Hi Don,   Nice looking car............:o)   Gary W   Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 10:58:46 PM Subject: [vintageHO] JC Silversides A week or two ago I posted a picture of an unbuilt JC Silversides HO-12 12 section Pullman. This is what it looks like tonight. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@ prodigy.net http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n Owner http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8071	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Christmas wish

Whether you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah or another holiday, I just want to wish everyone on the list a most blessed Holiday, and a Happy New Year. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8072	From: bayerw@comcast.net	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides

Attachments : BEAUTIFUL!!! -- Regards, Walter -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > A week or two ago I posted a picture of an unbuilt JC Silversides HO-12 12 > section Pullman. This is what it looks like tonight. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8073	From: bayerw@comcast.net	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: Christmas wish

Attachments : AND TO YOU! -- Regards, Walter -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> > > > Whether you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah or another holiday, I just want > to > wish everyone on the list a most blessed Holiday, and a Happy New Year. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8074	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Don's passenger cars

Don,                 Nice JC Silversides passenger car as are all you have made and shown. Happy Holidays.                                                                                               Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8075	From: Gerry D	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides

very nice! --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> Subject: [vintageHO] JC Silversides To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 10:58 PM A week or two ago I posted a picture of an unbuilt JC Silversides HO-12 12 section Pullman. This is what it looks like tonight. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction Owner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8076	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/24/2008
Subject: Re: Christmas wish

Don--the collective holiday is "Hannukwanzmas" gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: <MRPics@yahoogroups.com>; <VintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 4:52 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Christmas wish > > > Whether you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah or another holiday, I just want > to > wish everyone on the list a most blessed Holiday, and a Happy New Year. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1863 - Release Date: 12/24/2008 11:49 AM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8077	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/25/2008
Subject: Re: Christmas wish

Merry Christmas to all! Let's hope the coming 2009 year, is filled with exciting finds in vintage HO equipment! -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: > > > > Whether you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah or another holiday, I just want > to > wish everyone on the list a most blessed Holiday, and a Happy New Year. > > Don > > Don Dellmann > don.dellmann@... > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction > Owner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8078	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Attachments : The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco.  I have one with the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of plastic.  The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal.  Photos attached.  I will post to my folder also.  I did not take the smaller wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8079	From: oljoeoh	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Wow - yet another revelation - never knew the plastic body existed. Makes me wonder what PL might have used to get some weight in the thing. As I recall it was pretty light without the body mounted. Any idea when that plastic body was used? Joe O'Loughlin --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco. I have one with > the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of > plastic. The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal. > Photos attached. I will post to my folder also. I did not take the smaller > wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8080	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Hi Chuck,   I forgot to mention the smaller wheels as one of the differences. I think they are on the older version possibly with the non-cut drive gears. I have a couple with this smaller wheel too. Compare the main motor & transfer case gears on your D-2s as well. It looks to me that the main gears are brass on your middle D-2 as it is pictured. I am unable to see the gearing on the other two. If any of the other two have the mixed gear material of one brass and one epoxy resin, then my beliefe that the version with the smaller drivers may be the older version.   As for the plastic shell:   As far a s I know, all the Penn Line Whitcombs came with only diecast shells. The plastic shell I have did not come with a chassis and I have found NO evidence that it was ever made by Penn Line. (other than the obvious markings of course) It is my understanding (via hear-say) that this shell was produced by a Japan company near or soon after Penn Line went under. It does not appear to have ever been mounted to a shell either..    Sean --- On Fri, 12/26/08, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels To: "vintageHO" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 1:10 PM The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco.  I have one with the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of plastic.  The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal.  Photos attached.  I will post to my folder also.  I did not take the smaller wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8081	From: Charles Windes	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: JC Silversides

Don Very nice Charlie W -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8082	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Hi Sean,   All of mine have the top brass gear and a darker gear to the shaft that turns the axles gears.  My belief is also the smaller wheels are the older version.  Of the four of these I have, three have plastic bodies that are identical to the metal body.  They also have Penn-Line molded on the steps just like my metal shell.  I know I purchased at least two of them in Penn-Line boxes, so I would question the Japan connection you mention.  As soon as I find the boxes with the insert, I will post a photo.  Assuming that I still have them.  I am pretty sure they were ready to run in the boxes. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8083	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Hello Chuck,   So 2 of your D-2's were purchased from Penn Line with the plastic shells??   Wow!  If true, that is the first I have ever heard of it. Not to say I do not believe you, I am just surprised. As for my Japan rumor, as I said, it was hear-say. I have had ~20 of the D-2s and abour 5-7 of the older mini diesels with the band drive and lead shells. All of my D-2s have had the diecast shells. I have only ever seen one plastic shell in person and I own it. It did not come with a chassis when I got it, so I had/have no way of determining the true origin of it, but if you say you purchased yours from Penn Line, then it must be so..   Neat! Thanks!   Sean --- On Fri, 12/26/08, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 2:19 PM Hi Sean,   All of mine have the top brass gear and a darker gear to the shaft that turns the axles gears.  My belief is also the smaller wheels are the older version.  Of the four of these I have, three have plastic bodies that are identical to the metal body.  They also have Penn-Line molded on the steps just like my metal shell.  I know I purchased at least two of them in Penn-Line boxes, so I would question the Japan connection you mention.  As soon as I find the boxes with the insert, I will post a photo.  Assuming that I still have them.  I am pretty sure they were ready to run in the boxes. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8084	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

I would like to add a little to the Whitcomb D-1 and D-2 versions since I kind of started the latest discussion by showing a D-1 type I just rebuilt. I then sent pictures of the D-1 type and the D-2 type to show how the motors were mounted in each (differently) and that there were two distinct bodies BUT both metal. I have one of those plastic bodies that resembles the Penn Line D-2 type. I know Sean had one. I didn't even bring it into the conversation before because I have not been able to verify it was made by Penn Line. I have a very close friend who is a true Penn Line collector with a huge collection, lives in Boyertown and knew the 3 owners of PL personally. He CAN NOT verify that they were made by Penn Line. He has six of the plastic bodies all mint and no drives in any. He tends to feel like Sean that there were made by someone else other then Penn Line. Chuck's pictures showing the plastic bodies with motor/drives in them are the first I have ever seen or heard off. It was only bodies.  I think it would be easy to mount the PL D-2 style drive in the plastic bodies because the PL metal D-2 body and these plastic ones are exact in size. This next statements is all assumption and don't take it as gospel. I have to wonder if Penn Line had some plastic bodies made and were going to use them instead of the metal and then went out of business before getting that far. These bodies got out when Penn Line's excess stock was sold and used by the new buyers and these bodies got out. Until someone can provide a catalog or paperwork that shows that these plastic bodies were PL nothing is fact.      I'm not going to get into the types of gears now because my head is spinning just talking about the bodies. just getting the information to sit back and digest it is enough for me right now. It will be interesting to find out if others can add to this.                                                                                                           Jim H  ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:10 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco.  I have one with the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of plastic.  The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal.  Photos attached.  I will post to my folder also.  I did not take the smaller wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8085	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]RE: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels

Of course that/this is what makes this group so great.  I am sitting here with 75% of my D-2s with plastic shells, so I think that is the norm and you are sitting there with 95% of your D-2s with metal shells thinking that is the norm.  Neither one of us will know how many of each were made either way, so it is a learning experience for us all.   Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 2:32 PM To: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]RE: [ vintageHO ] Penn-Line Midget diesels   Hello Chuck,   So 2 of your D-2's were purchased from Penn Line with the plastic shells??   Wow!  If true, that is the first I have ever heard of it. Not to say I do not believe you, I am just surprised. As for my Japan rumor, as I said, it was hear-say. I have had ~20 of the D-2s and abour 5-7 of the older mini diesels with the band drive and lead shells. All of my D-2s have had the diecast shells. I have only ever seen one plastic shell in person and I own it. It did not come with a chassis when I got it, so I had/have no way of determining the true origin of it, but if you say you purchased yours from Penn Line, then it must be so..   Neat! Thanks!   Sean --- On Fri, 12/26/08, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net> wrote: From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net> Subject: RE: [ vintageHO ] Penn-Line Midget diesels To: vintageHO @yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 2:19 PM Hi Sean,   All of mine have the top brass gear and a darker gear to the shaft that turns the axles gears.  My belief is also the smaller wheels are the older version.  Of the four of these I have, three have plastic bodies that are identical to the metal body.  They also have Penn-Line molded on the steps just like my metal shell.  I know I purchased at least two of them in Penn-Line boxes, so I would question the Japan connection you mention.  As soon as I find the boxes with the insert, I will post a photo.  Assuming that I still have them.  I am pretty sure they were ready to run in the boxes. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8086	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

The one box I have for my plastic D-2, has handwritten on the end flap “Whitcomb” and “$12.88”.  This is a Yellow window box, which I have more of with no stamped info on them.  But different items in them, so this only adds to the speculation.  I could have stumbled in to a shop that got the tail end of their or the new buyer’s inventory for sale.  And that is why these boxes just have the handwriting on them.    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:22 PM To: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [ vintageHO ] Penn-Line Midget diesels                I would like to add a little to the Whitcomb D-1 and D-2 versions since I kind of started the latest discussion by showing a D-1 type I just rebuilt. I then sent pictures of the D-1 type and the D-2 type to show how the motors were mounted in each (differently) and that there were two distinct bodies BUT both metal. I have one of those plastic bodies that resembles the Penn Line D-2 type. I know Sean had one. I didn't even bring it into the conversation before because I have not been able to verify it was made by Penn Line. I have a very close friend who is a true Penn Line collector with a huge collection, lives in Boyertown and knew the 3 owners of PL personally. He CAN NOT verify that they were made by Penn Line. He has six of the plastic bodies all mint and no drives in any. He tends to feel like Sean that there were made by someone else other then Penn Line. Chuck's pictures showing the plastic bodies with motor/drives in them are the first I have ever seen or heard off. It was only bodies.  I think it would be easy to mount the PL D-2 style drive in the plastic bodies because the PL metal D-2 body and these plastic ones are exact in size. This next statements is all assumption and don't take it as gospel. I have to wonder if Penn Line had some plastic bodies made and were going to use them instead of the metal and then went out of business before getting that far. These bodies got out when Penn Line's excess stock was sold and used by the new buyers and these bodies got out. Until someone can provide a catalog or paperwork that shows that these plastic bodies were PL nothing is fact.      I'm not going to get into the types of gears now because my head is spinning just talking about the bodies. just getting the information to sit back and digest it is enough for me right now. It will be interesting to find out if others can add to this.                                                                                                           Jim H  ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:10 PM Subject: [ vintageHO ] Penn-Line Midget diesels   The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco.  I have one with the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of plastic.  The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal.  Photos attached.  I will post to my folder also.  I did not take the smaller wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8087	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Chuck,      More interesting information. Hopefully all these pieces will form a bigger picture. I have to go back and read issues of the newsletter for the HOSC&H-SIG group.The bad part is I don't have an index to tell me what issues had what Penn Line info. That will mean 20 years of 4 yearly issues of 16 pages each. Hopefully others out there will be able to supply more information.                                                                                                              Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:54 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels The one box I have for my plastic D-2, has handwritten on the end flap “Whitcomb” and “$12.88”.  This is a Yellow window box, which I have more of with no stamped info on them.  But different items in them, so this only adds to the speculation.  I could have stumbled in to a shop that got the tail end of their or the new buyer’s inventory for sale.  And that is why these boxes just have the handwriting on them.  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:22 PM To: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [ vintageHO ] Penn-Line Midget diesels              I would like to add a little to the Whitcomb D-1 and D-2 versions since I kind of started the latest discussion by showing a D-1 type I just rebuilt. I then sent pictures of the D-1 type and the D-2 type to show how the motors were mounted in each (differently) and that there were two distinct bodies BUT both metal. I have one of those plastic bodies that resembles the Penn Line D-2 type. I know Sean had one. I didn't even bring it into the conversation before because I have not been able to verify it was made by Penn Line. I have a very close friend who is a true Penn Line collector with a huge collection, lives in Boyertown and knew the 3 owners of PL personally. He CAN NOT verify that they were made by Penn Line. He has six of the plastic bodies all mint and no drives in any. He tends to feel like Sean that there were made by someone else other then Penn Line. Chuck's pictures showing the plastic bodies with motor/drives in them are the first I have ever seen or heard off. It was only bodies.  I think it would be easy to mount the PL D-2 style drive in the plastic bodies because the PL metal D-2 body and these plastic ones are exact in size. This next statements is all assumption and don't take it as gospel. I have to wonder if Penn Line had some plastic bodies made and were going to use them instead of the metal and then went out of business before getting that far. These bodies got out when Penn Line's excess stock was sold and used by the new buyers and these bodies got out. Until someone can provide a catalog or paperwork that shows that these plastic bodies were PL nothing is fact.      I'm not going to get into the types of gears now because my head is spinning just talking about the bodies. just getting the information to sit back and digest it is enough for me right now. It will be interesting to find out if others can add to this.                                                                                                           Jim H  ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:10 PM Subject: [ vintageHO ] Penn-Line Midget diesels The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco.  I have one with the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of plastic.  The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal.  Photos attached.  I will post to my folder also.  I did not take the smaller wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8088	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: small part

I'm looking for a small part for an older metal Athearn RDC. The instruction sheet calls it Large Data plate. It has two pins on it that fits in two holes in the middle of the body. I would like to get an original metal part before using something else. Gladly pay for part plus shipping.       If no one has one do you know someone who deals in Athearn parts especially older items                                                              Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8089	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: small part

I'm short a couple of those myself.  does anyone have a spare power truck from the metal RDC?  or could someone send me copy of the power truck mounting plate--the fiber plate-- it can be laid on the glass of a copier and get a usable pattern to make what I need.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: [vintageHO] small part           I'm looking for a small part for an older metal Athearn RDC. The instruction sheet calls it Large Data plate. It has two pins on it that fits in two holes in the middle of the body. I would like to get an original metal part before using something else. Gladly pay for part plus shipping.       If no one has one do you know someone who deals in Athearn parts especially older items                                                              Jim                No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8090	From: fydill	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Sometime in the very late 1950's, Bob Faust, President of Penn Line, decided that they were really not making much money on the Whitcomb D- 2 with the metal cast body. Because of this they stopped most of the ads for the D-2. Dealers were still able to order the D-2, but it did not appear in the illustrated Penn Line catalogs of the late 50's and very early 60's. As early as the summer of 1961 Penn Line started shipping #D-3R U.S.Navy Midget Diesel Switcher with a red plastic body and D-3B U.S.Steel Midget Diesel Switcher (Black plastic body). These would appear in the 1962 catalog although no mention of the plastic body was mentioned. I know that these were shipped at least as early as the summer of 1961, because I worked in the shipping department of Penn Line only one summer when I was 16, which would have been 1961. I personally packed plastic body D-3's for shipment. The plastic body D-3's may have been available even earlier than the summer of 1961, but I would have no way of dating them other than by my employment at Penn Line. Frank Dill --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Chuck, > More interesting information. Hopefully all these pieces will form a bigger picture. I have to go back and read issues of the newsletter for the HOSC&H-SIG group.The bad part is I don't have an index to tell me what issues had what Penn Line info. That will mean 20 years of 4 yearly issues of 16 pages each. Hopefully others out there will be able to supply more information. > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck Higdon > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:54 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels > > > > The one box I have for my plastic D-2, has handwritten on the end flap "Whitcomb" and "$12.88". This is a Yellow window box, which I have more of with no stamped info on them. But different items in them, so this only adds to the speculation. I could have stumbled in to a shop that got the tail end of their or the new buyer's inventory for sale. And that is why these boxes just have the handwriting on them. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:22 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels > > > > I would like to add a little to the Whitcomb D-1 and D-2 versions since I kind of started the latest discussion by showing a D-1 type I just rebuilt. I then sent pictures of the D-1 type and the D-2 type to show how the motors were mounted in each (differently) and that there were two distinct bodies BUT both metal. I have one of those plastic bodies that resembles the Penn Line D-2 type. I know Sean had one. I didn't even bring it into the conversation before because I have not been able to verify it was made by Penn Line. I have a very close friend who is a true Penn Line collector with a huge collection, lives in Boyertown and knew the 3 owners of PL personally. He CAN NOT verify that they were made by Penn Line. He has six of the plastic bodies all mint and no drives in any. He tends to feel like Sean that there were made by someone else other then Penn Line. Chuck's pictures showing the plastic bodies with motor/drives in them are the first I have ever seen or heard off. It was only bodies. I think it would be easy to mount the PL D- 2 style drive in the plastic bodies because the PL metal D-2 body and these plastic ones are exact in size. This next statements is all assumption and don't take it as gospel. I have to wonder if Penn Line had some plastic bodies made and were going to use them instead of the metal and then went out of business before getting that far. These bodies got out when Penn Line's excess stock was sold and used by the new buyers and these bodies got out. Until someone can provide a catalog or paperwork that shows that these plastic bodies were PL nothing is fact. > > I'm not going to get into the types of gears now because my head is spinning just talking about the bodies. just getting the information to sit back and digest it is enough for me right now. It will be interesting to find out if others can add to this. > > Jim H > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Chuck Higdon > > To: vintageHO > > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:10 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels > > > > The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco. I have one with the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of plastic. The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal. Photos attached. I will post to my folder also. I did not take the smaller wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees. > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8091	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Thank You  Frank. Your response should answer all the questions about PL Whitcomb plastic bodies.                                 Jim H ----- Original Message ----- From: fydill To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:24 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels Sometime in the very late 1950's, Bob Faust, President of Penn Line, decided that they were really not making much money on the Whitcomb D- 2 with the metal cast body. Because of this they stopped most of the ads for the D-2. Dealers were still able to order the D-2, but it did not appear in the illustrated Penn Line catalogs of the late 50's and very early 60's. As early as the summer of 1961 Penn Line started shipping #D-3R U.S.Navy Midget Diesel Switcher with a red plastic body and D-3B U.S.Steel Midget Diesel Switcher (Black plastic body). These would appear in the 1962 catalog although no mention of the plastic body was mentioned. I know that these were shipped at least as early as the summer of 1961, because I worked in the shipping department of Penn Line only one summer when I was 16, which would have been 1961. I personally packed plastic body D-3's for shipment. The plastic body D-3's may have been available even earlier than the summer of 1961, but I would have no way of dating them other than by my employment at Penn Line. Frank Dill --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Chuck, > More interesting information. Hopefully all these pieces will form a bigger picture. I have to go back and read issues of the newsletter for the HOSC&H-SIG group.The bad part is I don't have an index to tell me what issues had what Penn Line info. That will mean 20 years of 4 yearly issues of 16 pages each. Hopefully others out there will be able to supply more information. > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck Higdon > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:54 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels > > > > The one box I have for my plastic D-2, has handwritten on the end flap "Whitcomb" and "$12.88". This is a Yellow window box, which I have more of with no stamped info on them. But different items in them, so this only adds to the speculation. I could have stumbled in to a shop that got the tail end of their or the new buyer's inventory for sale. And that is why these boxes just have the handwriting on them. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - ---------- > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:22 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels > > > > I would like to add a little to the Whitcomb D-1 and D-2 versions since I kind of started the latest discussion by showing a D-1 type I just rebuilt. I then sent pictures of the D-1 type and the D-2 type to show how the motors were mounted in each (differently) and that there were two distinct bodies BUT both metal. I have one of those plastic bodies that resembles the Penn Line D-2 type. I know Sean had one. I didn't even bring it into the conversation before because I have not been able to verify it was made by Penn Line. I have a very close friend who is a true Penn Line collector with a huge collection, lives in Boyertown and knew the 3 owners of PL personally. He CAN NOT verify that they were made by Penn Line. He has six of the plastic bodies all mint and no drives in any. He tends to feel like Sean that there were made by someone else other then Penn Line. Chuck's pictures showing the plastic bodies with motor/drives in them are the first I have ever seen or heard off. It was only bodies. I think it would be easy to mount the PL D- 2 style drive in the plastic bodies because the PL metal D-2 body and these plastic ones are exact in size. This next statements is all assumption and don't take it as gospel. I have to wonder if Penn Line had some plastic bodies made and were going to use them instead of the metal and then went out of business before getting that far. These bodies got out when Penn Line's excess stock was sold and used by the new buyers and these bodies got out. Until someone can provide a catalog or paperwork that shows that these plastic bodies were PL nothing is fact. > > I'm not going to get into the types of gears now because my head is spinning just talking about the bodies. just getting the information to sit back and digest it is enough for me right now. It will be interesting to find out if others can add to this. > > Jim H > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Chuck Higdon > > To: vintageHO > > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:10 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels > > > > The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco. I have one with the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of plastic. The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal. Photos attached. I will post to my folder also. I did not take the smaller wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees. > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8092	From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

wow..lots of great info on the little switchers...now all I need to do is find a Red one and I will be happy...Bill One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8093	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Now That is kool!   Thanks Frank!   Sean --- On Fri, 12/26/08, fydill <fydill@...> wrote: From: fydill <fydill@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 7:24 PM Sometime in the very late 1950's, Bob Faust, President of Penn Line, decided that they were really not making much money on the Whitcomb D- 2 with the metal cast body. Because of this they stopped most of the ads for the D-2. Dealers were still able to order the D-2, but it did not appear in the illustrated Penn Line catalogs of the late 50's and very early 60's. As early as the summer of 1961 Penn Line started shipping #D-3R U.S.Navy Midget Diesel Switcher with a red plastic body and D-3B U.S.Steel Midget Diesel Switcher (Black plastic body). These would appear in the 1962 catalog although no mention of the plastic body was mentioned. I know that these were shipped at least as early as the summer of 1961, because I worked in the shipping department of Penn Line only one summer when I was 16, which would have been 1961. I personally packed plastic body D-3's for shipment. The plastic body D-3's may have been available even earlier than the summer of 1961, but I would have no way of dating them other than by my employment at Penn Line. Frank Dill --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Chuck, > More interesting information. Hopefully all these pieces will form a bigger picture. I have to go back and read issues of the newsletter for the HOSC&H-SIG group.The bad part is I don't have an index to tell me what issues had what Penn Line info. That will mean 20 years of 4 yearly issues of 16 pages each. Hopefully others out there will be able to supply more information. > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck Higdon > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:54 PM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels > > > > The one box I have for my plastic D-2, has handwritten on the end flap "Whitcomb" and "$12.88". This is a Yellow window box, which I have more of with no stamped info on them. But different items in them, so this only adds to the speculation. I could have stumbled in to a shop that got the tail end of their or the new buyer's inventory for sale. And that is why these boxes just have the handwriting on them. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - ---------- > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:22 PM > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels > > > > I would like to add a little to the Whitcomb D-1 and D-2 versions since I kind of started the latest discussion by showing a D-1 type I just rebuilt. I then sent pictures of the D-1 type and the D-2 type to show how the motors were mounted in each (differently) and that there were two distinct bodies BUT both metal. I have one of those plastic bodies that resembles the Penn Line D-2 type. I know Sean had one. I didn't even bring it into the conversation before because I have not been able to verify it was made by Penn Line. I have a very close friend who is a true Penn Line collector with a huge collection, lives in Boyertown and knew the 3 owners of PL personally. He CAN NOT verify that they were made by Penn Line. He has six of the plastic bodies all mint and no drives in any. He tends to feel like Sean that there were made by someone else other then Penn Line. Chuck's pictures showing the plastic bodies with motor/drives in them are the first I have ever seen or heard off. It was only bodies. I think it would be easy to mount the PL D- 2 style drive in the plastic bodies because the PL metal D-2 body and these plastic ones are exact in size. This next statements is all assumption and don't take it as gospel. I have to wonder if Penn Line had some plastic bodies made and were going to use them instead of the metal and then went out of business before getting that far. These bodies got out when Penn Line's excess stock was sold and used by the new buyers and these bodies got out. Until someone can provide a catalog or paperwork that shows that these plastic bodies were PL nothing is fact. > > I'm not going to get into the types of gears now because my head is spinning just talking about the bodies. just getting the information to sit back and digest it is enough for me right now. It will be interesting to find out if others can add to this. > > Jim H > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Chuck Higdon > > To: vintageHO > > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:10 PM > > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn-Line Midget diesels > > > > The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco. I have one with the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of plastic. The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal. Photos attached. I will post to my folder also. I did not take the smaller wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees. > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8094	From: Chris B	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: small part

Jim, I've got two non powered and one powered units packed away in the back of the pile. These are the earliest version I'm familiar with, they have cast metal roof domes and the powered unit has a single truck mounted motor.  I assume they predate the later hi-fi metal bodied units.  I bought them for the trucks, and packed them away right after purchase, so I don't remember how complete they are otherwise, so I'll take a look, if I have the part, it's yours. Chris Brannigan From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:42:49 PM Subject: [vintageHO] small part           I'm looking for a small part for an older metal Athearn RDC. The instruction sheet calls it Large Data plate. It has two pins on it that fits in two holes in the middle of the body. I would like to get an original metal part before using something else. Gladly pay for part plus shipping.       If no one has one do you know someone who deals in Athearn parts especially older items                                                              Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8095	From: Chris B	Date: 12/26/2008
Subject: Re: small part

Glenn, see my answer to Jim, I can't spare the truck, but I can probably make a pattern and email it. Chris From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:54:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] small part I'm short a couple of those myself.  does anyone have a spare power truck from the metal RDC?  or could someone send me copy of the power truck mounting plate--the fiber plate-- it can be laid on the glass of a copier and get a usable pattern to make what I need.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: [vintageHO] small part           I'm looking for a small part for an older metal Athearn RDC. The instruction sheet calls it Large Data plate. It has two pins on it that fits in two holes in the middle of the body. I would like to get an original metal part before using something else. Gladly pay for part plus shipping.       If no one has one do you know someone who deals in Athearn parts especially older items                                                              Jim                No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8096	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: small part

Those are the original Athearn RDC's--2-layer metal shell, with window material sandwiched between--  yes---I'd appreciate a copy of the fiber truck-mount bracket--easiest would be to lay it and a small ruler on the glass of a copier , close the lid so there is good contrast, and "print"---   BTW--I have several copies of that info sheet on the FED "Disaster Series" caboose--anyone wants one let me know.     Glenn Joesten 3825 Pruett Drive Yreka, CA 96097-9708 ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] small part Glenn, see my answer to Jim, I can't spare the truck, but I can probably make a pattern and email it. Chris From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:54:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] small part I'm short a couple of those myself.  does anyone have a spare power truck from the metal RDC?  or could someone send me copy of the power truck mounting plate--the fiber plate-- it can be laid on the glass of a copier and get a usable pattern to make what I need.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: [vintageHO] small part           I'm looking for a small part for an older metal Athearn RDC. The instruction sheet calls it Large Data plate. It has two pins on it that fits in two holes in the middle of the body. I would like to get an original metal part before using something else. Gladly pay for part plus shipping.       If no one has one do you know someone who deals in Athearn parts especially older items                                                              Jim                No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8097	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Ambroid complete listing

H'lo All...in sleuthing Ambroid cars, I found the list posted by chuckie in the group files section. It doesn't appear to be complete...is there a complete listing available? Thanks! Russ Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8098	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Well, it answers all the questions except one -- did Penn Line actually cut the die for the Whitcomb or did they go outside for that one like they did for the F-7? If they did, to whom did they go? I had always assumed (and I am wrong in my assumption) that the plastic bodied-switcher was one that combined the power unit from the Whitcomb with a body from Mantua or Lionel and was only sold under other brand names and not Penn Line. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Thank You Frank. Your response should answer all the questions about PL Whitcomb plastic bodies. > Jim H > ----- Original Message -----

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8099	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Matt,           I know of no plastic extrusion work done by Penn Line at their facilities. My friend and my best source for PL doesn't remember any  machinery or extrusion of plastic done at Penn Line. Does anyone have different thoughts. The first F-7 body they used was Athearn. When they started using their own version (with the shortened steps but Penn Line embossed inside) they must have had an outside vendor make them. I haven't even heard a mention who (PL owners or outside contractor) designed the F-7 body).           As for the plastic Whitcomb I have to believe that they came from the same source as the F-7, who ever that was. but I don't know that the Penn Line name is inside any. From what I hear nothing appears on these bodies. I, like you, had believed they came from outside source and not even associated with Penn Line. The response from a fellow member changes all that.           As Chuck said that is what is so good about the group as we all attempt not to let the history of vintage HO disappear. And the more information and samples helps us try to recreate that history.                                                                                        Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels Well, it answers all the questions except one -- did Penn Line actually cut the die for the Whitcomb or did they go outside for that one like they did for the F-7? If they did, to whom did they go? I had always assumed (and I am wrong in my assumption) that the plastic bodied-switcher was one that combined the power unit from the Whitcomb with a body from Mantua or Lionel and was only sold under other brand names and not Penn Line. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Thank You Frank. Your response should answer all the questions about PL Whitcomb plastic bodies. > Jim H > ----- Original Message -----

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8100	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Jim, “Penn Line” is embossed on the bottoms or underside of the front steps of all of mine, metal and plastic.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:24 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels   Matt,           I know of no plastic extrusion work done by Penn Line at their facilities. My friend and my best source for PL doesn't remember any  machinery or extrusion of plastic done at Penn Line. Does anyone have different thoughts. The first F-7 body they used was Athearn. When they started using their own version (with the shortened steps but Penn Line embossed inside) they must have had an outside vendor make them. I haven't even heard a mention who (PL owners or outside contractor) designed the F-7 body).           As for the plastic Whitcomb I have to believe that they came from the same source as the F-7, who ever that was. but I don't know that the Penn Line name is inside any. From what I hear nothing appears on these bodies. I, like you, had believed they came from outside source and not even associated with Penn Line. The response from a fellow member changes all that.           As Chuck said that is what is so good about the group as we all attempt not to let the history of vintage HO disappear. And the more information and samples helps us try to recreate that history.                                                                                        Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels   Well, it answers all the questions except one -- did Penn Line actually cut the die for the Whitcomb or did they go outside for that one like they did for the F-7? If they did, to whom did they go? I had always assumed (and I am wrong in my assumption) that the plastic bodied-switcher was one that combined the power unit from the Whitcomb with a body from Mantua or Lionel and was only sold under other brand names and not Penn Line. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Thank You Frank. Your response should answer all the questions about PL Whitcomb plastic bodies. > Jim H > ----- Original Message -----

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8101	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Chuck ,                  Maybe a new mystery. First only the metal D-2 has Penn Line embossed under the steps. The metal D-1 does not on mine unless it was ground off.. As to the plastic D-2 body having it I have to get home and look at mine. I don't remember finding it any where on the plastic body I have when I was looking. I have to recheck it to be sure but I can't see how I would have missed it.             I'll get back to you on this.       Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:52 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels Jim, “Penn Line” is embossed on the bottoms or underside of the front steps of all of mine, metal and plastic. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:24 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels Matt,           I know of no plastic extrusion work done by Penn Line at their facilities. My friend and my best source for PL doesn't remember any  machinery or extrusion of plastic done at Penn Line. Does anyone have different thoughts. The first F-7 body they used was Athearn. When they started using their own version (with the shortened steps but Penn Line embossed inside) they must have had an outside vendor make them. I haven't even heard a mention who (PL owners or outside contractor) designed the F-7 body).           As for the plastic Whitcomb I have to believe that they came from the same source as the F-7, who ever that was. but I don't know that the Penn Line name is inside any. From what I hear nothing appears on these bodies. I, like you, had believed they came from outside source and not even associated with Penn Line. The response from a fellow member changes all that.           As Chuck said that is what is so good about the group as we all attempt not to let the history of vintage HO disappear. And the more information and samples helps us try to recreate that history.                                                                                        Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels Well, it answers all the questions except one -- did Penn Line actually cut the die for the Whitcomb or did they go outside for that one like they did for the F-7? If they did, to whom did they go? I had always assumed (and I am wrong in my assumption) that the plastic bodied-switcher was one that combined the power unit from the Whitcomb with a body from Mantua or Lionel and was only sold under other brand names and not Penn Line. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Thank You Frank. Your response should answer all the questions about PL Whitcomb plastic bodies. > Jim H > ----- Original Message -----

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8102	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

There is a set of Walthers HH 660 casting on ebay. Check ebay item # 170289309257. The seller has it listed as a Cary shell and Athearn drive. Guess he's never seen the Walthers HH castings nor is he all that familiar with Cary's stuff. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8103	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

I have the Walthers HH660, with a dead drive. Is it even possible to put the shell on top of an Athearn frame? I can't find my Athearn switcher frames, so I really don't have a good way to see for myself. Three Athearn frames, and all are AWOL. On the other hand, I picked up a crumbling Penn Line ALCO at Trainfest in Milwaukee, and I think I can rework the mechanism to fit my Walthers- they are pretty similar. -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > There is a set of Walthers HH 660 casting on ebay. Check ebay item # > 170289309257. The seller has it listed as a Cary shell and Athearn > drive. Guess he's never seen the Walthers HH castings nor is he all > that familiar with Cary's stuff. > > John Hagen >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8104	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Chuck,            No new mystery. My plastic Whitcomb has PL on the step. I must be blind as I would have said not there. Guess I have a pre New Years hangover.            I know Ray W will have a good laugh over that. He loves to needle me to have a big cup of coffee before I write something.                                                  Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels Chuck ,                  Maybe a new mystery. First only the metal D-2 has Penn Line embossed under the steps. The metal D-1 does not on mine unless it was ground off.. As to the plastic D-2 body having it I have to get home and look at mine. I don't remember finding it any where on the plastic body I have when I was looking. I have to recheck it to be sure but I can't see how I would have missed it.             I'll get back to you on this.       Jim   ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Higdon To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:52 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels Jim, “Penn Line” is embossed on the bottoms or underside of the front steps of all of mine, metal and plastic. Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104 From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:24 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels Matt,           I know of no plastic extrusion work done by Penn Line at their facilities. My friend and my best source for PL doesn't remember any  machinery or extrusion of plastic done at Penn Line. Does anyone have different thoughts. The first F-7 body they used was Athearn. When they started using their own version (with the shortened steps but Penn Line embossed inside) they must have had an outside vendor make them. I haven't even heard a mention who (PL owners or outside contractor) designed the F-7 body).           As for the plastic Whitcomb I have to believe that they came from the same source as the F-7, who ever that was. but I don't know that the Penn Line name is inside any. From what I hear nothing appears on these bodies. I, like you, had believed they came from outside source and not even associated with Penn Line. The response from a fellow member changes all that.           As Chuck said that is what is so good about the group as we all attempt not to let the history of vintage HO disappear. And the more information and samples helps us try to recreate that history.                                                                                        Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: mmattjcoleman To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels Well, it answers all the questions except one -- did Penn Line actually cut the die for the Whitcomb or did they go outside for that one like they did for the F-7? If they did, to whom did they go? I had always assumed (and I am wrong in my assumption) that the plastic bodied-switcher was one that combined the power unit from the Whitcomb with a body from Mantua or Lionel and was only sold under other brand names and not Penn Line. Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote: > > Thank You Frank. Your response should answer all the questions about PL Whitcomb plastic bodies. > Jim H > ----- Original Message -----

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8105	From: jay matz	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid complete listing

Russ This web site has all the Ambroid kits listed. http://www.trainweb.org/ambroidkits/  Jay --- On Sat, 12/27/08, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote: From: Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid complete listing To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 5:29 AM H'lo All...in sleuthing Ambroid cars, I found the list posted by chuckie in the group files section. It doesn't appear to be complete...is there a complete listing available? Thanks! Russ Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8106	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

railwaymodeler wrote: > I have the Walthers HH660, with a dead drive. Is it even possible to > put the shell on top of an Athearn frame? I can't find my Athearn > switcher frames, so I really don't have a good way to see for myself. > Three Athearn frames, and all are AWOL. > > On the other hand, I picked up a crumbling Penn Line ALCO at Trainfest > in Milwaukee, and I think I can rework the mechanism to fit my > Walthers- they are pretty similar. > > -Steve Neubaum > Steve, the NH society newsletter - The Shoreliner - had an article how to upgrade this model with an Athearn drive. If you are interested I'll scan it. Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8107	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

You guys are wizards! And you have destroyed my Christmas. For nearly 50 years I have thought that the Whitcomb switcher came only in metal. I have both the early belt drive (D1) and both versions of the geared truck version (metal gears and the metal/fibre gear combo but I NEVER knew there was a plastic version. What will we find next? A plastic bodied Penn Line K-4? I thank you all for sharing so much of your knowledge. This group is an amazing bunch! Matt --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > Chuck, > No new mystery. My plastic Whitcomb has PL on the step. I must be blind as I would have said not there. Guess I have a pre New Years hangover. > I know Ray W will have a good laugh over that. He loves to needle me to have a big cup of coffee before I write something. > Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8108	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

Steve, I'd like a copy of that as well - I have several of these, all slightly different(maybe they made new molds once in a while) but they are all 'way too narrow to fit the Athearn switcher drives I have. So much carving and no promise that there's enough material - on either the HH shell or the Athearn drive.   I don't want to ruin these(admittedly somewhat crude) castings.   I also have one with the original drive; runs the way I remember stuff being when I was a kid - leaps down the track because the wheels are only "close" to round. Reliable, though.   Thanks in advance!   Fred HUltberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) --- On Sat, 12/27/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 4:50 PM railwaymodeler wrote: > I have the Walthers HH660, with a dead drive. Is it even possible to > put the shell on top of an Athearn frame? I can't find my Athearn > switcher frames, so I really don't have a good way to see for myself. > Three Athearn frames, and all are AWOL. > > On the other hand, I picked up a crumbling Penn Line ALCO at Trainfest > in Milwaukee, and I think I can rework the mechanism to fit my > Walthers- they are pretty similar. > > -Steve Neubaum > Steve, the NH society newsletter - The Shoreliner - had an article how to upgrade this model with an Athearn drive. If you are interested I'll scan it. Gerold ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8109	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

Gerold, pardon my slip!   I used the wrong salutation... --- On Sat, 12/27/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 4:50 PM railwaymodeler wrote: > I have the Walthers HH660, with a dead drive. Is it even possible to > put the shell on top of an Athearn frame? I can't find my Athearn > switcher frames, so I really don't have a good way to see for myself. > Three Athearn frames, and all are AWOL. > > On the other hand, I picked up a crumbling Penn Line ALCO at Trainfest > in Milwaukee, and I think I can rework the mechanism to fit my > Walthers- they are pretty similar. > > -Steve Neubaum > Steve, the NH society newsletter - The Shoreliner - had an article how to upgrade this model with an Athearn drive. If you are interested I'll scan it. Gerold ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8110	From: Gerold Eckl	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

Fred Hultberg wrote: > Gerold, pardon my slip! > > Ok, will scan and send - anybody else interested let me know. Cant promise it will happen this weekend - have to visit mother in law... Gerold

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8111	From: Tom	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

HI Gerold, I would like a copy as well, have 3 of the shells and pleanty of athearn frames to put them on, thanks a lot. Tom --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: > > Fred Hultberg wrote: > > Gerold, pardon my slip! > > > > > Ok, will scan and send - anybody else interested let me know. Cant > promise it will happen this weekend - have to visit mother in law... > > Gerold >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8112	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

Great!   Thanks   --- On Sat, 12/27/08, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote: From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 6:02 PM Fred Hultberg wrote: > Gerold, pardon my slip! > > Ok, will scan and send - anybody else interested let me know. Cant promise it will happen this weekend - have to visit mother in law... Gerold ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8113	From: Tom	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Penn-Line Midget diesels

Interesting stuff guys, I have 10 of them, 8 D-2s and 2 D-1s, I have never seen or heard of a plastic shell for them either, never knew Penn Line made one. I am actually looking for a D-1 diecast shell if anyone has one they are willing to sell or to trade for. Thanks, Tom --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote: > > The other day we saw photos of two versions of this loco. I have one with > the newer motor, but with the smaller wheels and a metal body instead of > plastic. The body shell is the same as the plastic body, it is just metal. > Photos attached. I will post to my folder also. I did not take the smaller > wheels into account when I mounted the Kadees. > > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8114	From: Glenn476	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

Atlas has just announced an HH-600 and -660 in HO--so those who mainly want the proper locos for the layout can use these, leaving the old Walthers bodies to us collectors of the vintage--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8115	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

Glenn, Had I seen this auction a couple of months ago I would be so bidding on it. I need exactly one to model the GB&W 101. But now with the Atlas model coming out, while I would still be interested in the Walthers castings I need the $40.00 to put towards the Atlas. Actually, for a starting bid on this me thinks he may be a couple of months too late for the same reason. Those old Walthers castings have just about become collectors items only. John Hagen --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote: > > Atlas has just announced an HH-600 and -660 in HO--so those who mainly want > the proper locos for the layout can use these, leaving the old Walthers > bodies to us collectors of the vintage--gj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8116	From: railwaymodeler	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

Yeah, but the Atlas model is cheap plastic junk, probably made in China too. My old Walthers engine, it looks like I could mount a second power truck in there. Anyone know if that is actually possible? I can just imagine the power it would have for switching old cars. Glad I got a 9-ish amp power supply for my railroad (A SuperBlue with walkaround throttle!) What I am thinking of doing, is putting two Varney switcher motors in mine, instead of the single Penn Line. I worked on the Penn line motor tonight for my HH600, and found that to actually mount the motor properly (It mounts from inside the roof) I have to disassemble the motor and combine parts with the Walthers. So I may as well scrap that idea and use two Vanrey switcher motors. The gears in my head are turning... -Steve Neubaum --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > Glenn, > > Had I seen this auction a couple of months ago I would be so bidding on > it. I need exactly one to model the GB&W 101. But now with the Atlas > model coming out, while I would still be interested in the Walthers > castings I need the $40.00 to put towards the Atlas. Actually, for a > starting bid on this me thinks he may be a couple of months too late > for the same reason. Those old Walthers castings have just about become > collectors items only. > > John Hagen > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote: > > > > Atlas has just announced an HH-600 and -660 in HO--so those who > mainly want > > the proper locos for the layout can use these, leaving the old > Walthers > > bodies to us collectors of the vintage--gj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8117	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

That's nice... Atlas tends to make good stuff - accurate, smooth-running, etc. I have no argument with that... still:   I'll stick with my Athearn Blue Box Drives under "cast iron" shells(Got an "e" project with a Hobbytown(?) shell in the works, too) for reliability, ease of maintenance, pulling power and economy. A Walthers HH-600/660 shell on an Athearn switcher frame oughtta pull like crazy! (love it) Wheelbase wrong? Pity... I should feel bad? --- On Sat, 12/27/08, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote: From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 7:46 PM Atlas has just announced an HH-600 and -660 in HO--so those who mainly want the proper locos for the layout can use these, leaving the old Walthers bodies to us collectors of the vintage--gj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8118	From: nvrr49	Date: 12/27/2008
Subject: Re: Ambroid complete listing

Try this link. http://www.trainweb.org/ambroidkits/ This is the best listing I have seen. I have several Ambroid kits in the works, including a Southern Hogshead Tobacco car. I own a complete set of both issues of the 1 of 5,000 kits. I was planning on building all of them, but job and age are getting in the way. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote: > > H'lo All...in sleuthing Ambroid cars, I found the list posted by chuckie in the group files section. It doesn't appear to be complete...is there a complete listing available? > Thanks! Russ > > > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8119	From: Jim Heckard	Date: 12/28/2008
Subject: Added PL Whitcomb info

I know there has been a lot of information and discussion about the Penn Line Whitcomb diesel especially the plastic version. I would like to add a few excerpts that come from issues of  " The Reporting Mark" which was the newsletter of the HOSC&H-SIG group. Please don't shoot the messenger. Only trying to add some information which may be helpful. These snippets will only be about the Whitcomb.           In the April 1995  Vol 13  No.2 there is a story about Penn Line (one of many) that Mr. Howell Day sent in. He said the first ad for the PL Whitcomb was 1949. He also talks about Varney and Mantua producing freight car items for Penn Line. However he doesn't distinguish if he was talking about just metal frames or plastic bodies. Perhaps a later issue has more. Back to Whitcomb. Mr. Day attended the PL bankruptcy auction. He specifically writes about "a stack of Whitcomb engines going out the door". (No mention of plastic or metal bodies. He felt they were going to Sol Kramer to be sold by E&H Hobbies.           Our Jan 1996   Vol 14 No 2 Page 14 issue has a story about The Whitcomb and the types of drives used. As far as I can see nothing popped out that was different then what has been noted on this site. Again no mention of metal or plastic Whitcomb bodies.            There is a rather large story (4 pages) compiled by Dave Spangel ,with help from other members, that tell about all products that Penn Line produced. It has a story about how the PL F-7 body came about and the different details  from  the Athearn beside the steps. I have not had a chance to go over it nor other PL information in later issues. I did find out that a red (painted) and lettered Whitcomb METAL diesel was sold as part of a set. I know some one that has it.            Just so much to go over and maybe this Whitcomb subject has been "beaten to death". Hope this adds to things.                                                                                                                            Jim H

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8120	From: ckinzer@att.net	Date: 12/28/2008
Subject: Re: small part

For Jim Heckard and Glenn Joesten:   I have an old metal Athearn RDC that I think could be sacrificed to satisfy both your needs.  The roof is bent at one end and it is pretty rusty.  But never assembled.   Jim:   I looked for the "large data plates" in the still stapled shut parts envelope, but only the small ones were there.  Then I noticed them already mounted on the body.  I suspect Athearn did that.  (Perhaps too many folks broke it by pushing in the middle or something.  The shorter stubbier plates would be more tolerant)  So first make sure it isn't already on the body!  I think I can get those off, but they don't want to pull off easily, and I will have to try and push them out from behind.  The body seems to want to act as a tinnerman nut on the plate studs.   If you want, send me an address off line and I'll try and get the parts off and send them.   Glenn:   I think the easiest thing to solve your power truck problem is to just send the rest of the thing to you.  The power truck seems to be the setup you are looking for with a brownish phenolic plastic or fiber looking plate.  I might otherwise be able to get a few bucks for it on ebay, but too few for me to want to bother with it.  This will put it to good better use than its current role as dust catcher.   If you want this, and I assume it will be sans "large data plates", send me an address off line.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn476 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 12:00 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] small part Those are the original Athearn RDC's--2-layer metal shell, with window material sandwiched between--  yes---I'd appreciate a copy of the fiber truck-mount bracket--easiest would be to lay it and a small ruler on the glass of a copier , close the lid so there is good contrast, and "print"---   BTW--I have several copies of that info sheet on the FED "Disaster Series" caboose--anyone wants one let me know.     Glenn Joesten 3825 Pruett Drive Yreka, CA 96097-9708 ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris B To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] small part Glenn, see my answer to Jim, I can't spare the truck, but I can probably make a pattern and email it. Chris From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:54:58 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] small part I'm short a couple of those myself.  does anyone have a spare power truck from the metal RDC?  or could someone send me copy of the power truck mounting plate--the fiber plate-- it can be laid on the glass of a copier and get a usable pattern to make what I need.    gj ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Heckard To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: [vintageHO] small part           I'm looking for a small part for an older metal Athearn RDC. The instruction sheet calls it Large Data plate. It has two pins on it that fits in two holes in the middle of the body. I would like to get an original metal part before using something else. Gladly pay for part plus shipping.       If no one has one do you know someone who deals in Athearn parts especially older items                                                              Jim                No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: 12/26/2008 1:01 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8121	From: Richard Moessner	Date: 12/28/2008
Subject: Re: Walthers ALCO HH Castings

I got a set of the Walthers HH castings, but no drive, from the old All- Nation Hobby Shop in Chicago, around 1961. In the late 1960s I epoxied the shell castings together and mounted it on an Athearn SW drive. I had to cut off the details on the casting between the trucks and below the frame side rail, then trimmed and thinned the pieces cut off and fitted them back to the frame around the mechanism. There was room inside the hood for the Athearn motor of that time. Dick Moessner --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote: > > I have the Walthers HH660, with a dead drive. Is it even possible to > put the shell on top of an Athearn frame?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8122	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/29/2008
Subject: Re: Added PL Whitcomb info

Jim, Excellent info and thanks for sharing! I don't think any topic is "beaten to death" as long as there are questions to be answered. I appreciate you sharing the details from the other researchers! Matt Coleman --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote: > > I know there has been a lot of information and discussion about the Penn Line Whitcomb diesel especially the plastic version. I would like to add a few excerpts that come from issues of " The Reporting Mark" which was the newsletter of the HOSC&H-SIG group. Please don't shoot the messenger. Only trying to add some information which may be helpful. These snippets will only be about the Whitcomb. > In the April 1995 Vol 13 No.2 there is a story about Penn Line (one of many) that Mr. Howell Day sent in. He said the first ad for the PL Whitcomb was 1949. He also talks about Varney and Mantua producing freight car items for Penn Line. However he doesn't distinguish if he was talking about just metal frames or plastic bodies. Perhaps a later issue has more. Back to Whitcomb. Mr. Day attended the PL bankruptcy auction. He specifically writes about "a stack of Whitcomb engines going out the door". (No mention of plastic or metal bodies. He felt they were going to Sol Kramer to be sold by E&H Hobbies. > Our Jan 1996 Vol 14 No 2 Page 14 issue has a story about The Whitcomb and the types of drives used. As far as I can see nothing popped out that was different then what has been noted on this site. Again no mention of metal or plastic Whitcomb bodies. > There is a rather large story (4 pages) compiled by Dave Spangel ,with help from other members, that tell about all products that Penn Line produced. It has a story about how the PL F-7 body came about and the different details from the Athearn beside the steps. I have not had a chance to go over it nor other PL information in later issues. I did find out that a red (painted) and lettered Whitcomb METAL diesel was sold as part of a set. I know some one that has it. > Just so much to go over and maybe this Whitcomb subject has been "beaten to death". Hope this adds to things. > Jim H >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8123	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/31/2008
Subject: Mystery brass inspection car??

Hi Guys, I was wondering if anyone knew who made this brass incpection car. I have attached a movie to the file section. It is: Sample of Train Car.avi Brass incpection car Thanks, Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8124	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 12/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??

Hi Sean, it was made by Kemtron and is still available from Precision Scale (which took over Kemtron when they went out).   Happy new year, Brian   In a message dated 12/31/2008 8:41:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, a69mustang4me@... writes: Hi Guys, I was wondering if anyone knew who made this brass incpection car. I have attached a movie to the file section. It is: Sample of Train Car.avi Brass incpection car Thanks, Sean New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8125	From: bslook@aol.com	Date: 12/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??

Sean, I guess I should have told you what it was called in case you want to look it up. It was called "1907 Thomas Flyer" or just "Thomas Flyer"   Best, Brian   In a message dated 12/31/2008 8:41:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, a69mustang4me@... writes: Hi Guys, I was wondering if anyone knew who made this brass incpection car. I have attached a movie to the file section. It is: Sample of Train Car.avi Brass incpection car Thanks, Sean New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 8126	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/31/2008
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??

Kemtron named it 'The Thomas Flyer'........... around the late 50's, I think. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 31, 2008, at 7:50 PM, bslook@... wrote: > Hi Sean, it was made by Kemtron and is still available from > Precision Scale (which took over Kemtron when they went out). > > Happy new year, Brian > > In a message dated 12/31/2008 8:41:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, a69mustang4me@... > writes: > Hi Guys, > > I was wondering if anyone knew who made this brass incpection car. I > have attached a movie to the file section.